(upbeat music) >> Announcer: From around the globe, it's theCUBE with digital coverage of AWS Public Sector Partner Awards. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services. >> Hi everyone, welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of AWS Public Sector Partner Awards Show. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. We're here in Paolo Alto, California but during COVID, we're doin' all the remote interviews and gettin' the stories and celebrating the awards for the Partner Awards Show. And the award here is most customer-obsessed mission-based win in the federal area. We've got two great guests, Greg Siegel Senior Manager at Accenture and Frank Urbano Program Manager with the FBI Federal Bureau of Investigation. Gentlemen, thank you for joining me and congratulations on the win. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> So let's break this down. So you're federal, big category, a lot of intelligence agencies been using the gov cloud and Amazon. What's the mission win? What's the award for? Tell us. >> So I guess the award is the Bureau was shutting down our data centers and we needed to move to an infrastructure that would support our application. That was the first problem that we were trying to actually solve. But also, we know we were always seeing a performance hit on our infrastructure, and we always suspected that by moving to the gov cloud, we'll see an increase in performance because once we went live in our current, in or old environment seven years ago, performance was always an issue, our end users were always complaining and then we moved to our VMs four years after that. We saw an increase in performance a little bit but then once we moved over to the cloud, the FBI secret cloud, we heard crickets. The end users haven't been complaining. Greg and I were actually talking about that the other day how, you know, there's minimal complaints as far as performance. That's going to be one of the themes you hear throughout is performance, performance, performance. >> Got to love the no complaints, that means it's workin', people are doin' their job, gettin' the job done. Greg, I want to get your thoughts on this because Accenture, we've had many conversations with you guys over there about being agile and now you're a partner. You know, the FBI, I saw a presentation in person at Reinvent, I think last year where the FBI was like, "Lookit, our workloads "are increasing and budget isn't increasing "at the same rate." So it's kind of like, you know, "I need more power." It's like that scene in Star Trek, "Scotty, more power," you need to get that power. Take us through that transformation because one, you got a good user experience. That means people are doin' their job. But the cases get bigger, the more workload is there, but the budget's got to be increased or leveraged better. What's your thoughts? How do you tackle that problem because it's do more with less, classic do more with less. >> That's right. Yeah, so as Frank said, I think the system had been live for about seven years and you see over that time in the traditional data centers how the performance requirements increase but as you said, are kind of there on hardware and not easily able to adapt and overcome those. So, you know, when it became clear that the cloud move was a serious consideration we were able to pull on a few other experiences that the firm has had moving similar technologies to the cloud and then kind of combined that with the experience implementing technology at the FBI. And those two components kind of together were able to get us on a path to successfully move to the cloud and be, you know, kind of one of the first big systems at the FBI to make that transition. So that was our approach. >> Frank, I'd like to ask, you mentioned crickets. That means, that's good, actually. No one's complaining. What was it like before when you had the data center? What were some of the complaints? What were some of the challenges that you were dealing with? >> So (chuckling) so some of the challenges we were dealing with was, to give an example, when we went live seven years ago, we actually deployed our application on hardware that was already end of life. And so immediately we saw challenges there. And so by moving to the cloud, it gave us a lot of architectural flexibility. And what I mean by that is that we control, now, our own destiny, meaning that in the past, we would have to put in change requests to have firewall configuration changes. Now that responsibility is with us. Our DBAs had limited access to actually do some type of performance tuning on the backend to our databases. Now we have full control of that. I guess a couple of examples, or one example that I would give is that we're in the COVID era, as you mentioned, right? We have a space where we, prior to COVID, we had about 70 people on staff, both government and at Accenture. And all of our development is done on the secret side. And we have major deliverables due at the end of September. Well, COVID hits, we now have to social distance and come up with a plan, and we have to have reduce our staff of 70, both functional developers down to anywhere between 10 people or less on-site. So that, right there, you know, we were talking major hit in our development effort and in cost, I guess, also. While we're doing our social distancing plan Greg came up to me and said, "Hey, why don't we move "our development environment and our test environment "to the gov cloud and scramble the data. "We'll be able to have our developers remote access in "and continue with our development efforts?" And I told Greg, "Great, put a plan together. "Let's talk to our information security officer." I said, "If he signs off on it, let's get off and running." We met with him, he signed off on them, and within two weeks that dev and test environment was up and running. And now, we're still on-track to meet our deliverable dates in September. >> That's a great example, well, that's awesome insight. Greg, expand on that because this is an example of agility. You talk about readiness, I mean it's unforecasted disruption, there's all kinds of use cases. "Oh, we have a hurricane," or whatever, you know. This is unforeseen and unique. Take us through-- >> Yeah, that's absolutely right. >> The agility piece here, on how you got deployed, time frame, and solution. >> Yeah, definitely. So yeah, it can't be overstated how much of a benefit it was that we had already gone through the process of refactoring a lot of our applications into the cloud and using some of those services available and, you know, able to containerize and take some of those application from where they were, as Frank mentioned, scramble the data, and then able to quickly use the cloud experience that we had to stand up an environment in gov cloud where it was more accessible for development that didn't need to take place on-site, was, essentially, the saving grace. We would have had major slowdowns in delivery, as Frank mentioned and a lot of cost implications there, so it really can't be overstated how much that experience having gone through it and being in a spot where we had that flexibility to quickly replicate our architecture, went a long way towards keeping the mission going as the world deals with the pandemic. >> Yeah, this is just a striking example. You know, first of all, I'm a cloud-biased person. I'm very much a, I lean heavily towards pro-cloud so I'll just say this as total bias. There are companies that have gone cloud and took advantage of that refactoring or reinvention and are in a position not only to hit the deadlines but also be in a position of growth strategy, or in this case, a mission-based expansion for the FBI, as Frank was alluding to. Could you imagine, Frank, if you had the data center challenge and you weren't in the cloud? And the you had to go to Greg, or somebody, and say, "Hey, what do you do?" So imagine you had the data center, and then COVID hits. A lot of people are on that side of the street, right now, goin', "What do we do?" >> Yeah, yeah we would have been dead in the water as Greg mentioned. You know, all of our work streams would have been forced out to the left. I couldn't even imagine, you know, the timelines that we would have had to come up with because we would have had to have come up with some rotation plan to develop, you know, team one can only come in on Mondays and Tuesdays and then team two would come in on Wednesdays and Thursdays which would have pushed out our delivery dates and as Greg mentioned also, cost goes up. Time is money, money's time. >> Yeah, I totally, and people goin' out of business because of it and, or settin' their mission back you know, decades. Greg, talk about what goes on next because obviously, congratulations on being a customer success, it's a great mission win here, but you got to get through this. So how are you guys huddling on this point? What are the conversations? What are you thinking? >> Yeah, so now we're at a point where I think, as I'd mentioned, when we first moved to the cloud, the primary mission was getting there securely, getting there within policy, and getting operational so we were making trade-off decisions on where to lift and shift, and where to refactor. Got through all of that successfully. Got through the initial challenge of COVID which definitely threw some of the plans for a loop as we shifted our operations and focused on getting operational in gov cloud. And now we are at a point where we've stabilized delivery again, and we're re-picking up where we left off on the cloud journey which is really focused now, on continuing to look at the investments that AWS is making in the technologies that are coming next. And it really enables us to get ahead of the trends, easily analyze some of these services, available, and then we enter into conversations with Frank and others and start making those trade-off decisions of when it's time to refactor, retire another part of our application and start to look to go cloud-native. So that's where we are now, is looking for ways to maximize and use those services to, again, save costs, improve performance, all of those things that go along with getting more and more mature in the cloud. >> You know, one of the things, Frank, I want to hear your thoughts on just as while I got you guys here is you think about old school, old guard, as Andy Jassy would say, or Teresa talk about. You got silos and you got all these things: legacy. Okay, got that. But as you guys look at your mission have secure data, catch the bad guys, and protect citizens, right? So (chuckling) I mean, I'm over-simplifying but generally, that's it. Data's critical, right? I mean, speed to the edge of the network which is the field and the people doing the job, is critical. Cloud has an opportunity to make that development cycle faster, and ultimately, the workloads and the impact. Could you share your thoughts on how the cloud and Amazon are bringin' that to the table because havin' the right data at the right time could mean the difference between life or death. >> Yeah, so Greg and I experienced this, and again, it's all about having that architectural flexibility, right? So back in February, we had a requirement where we had to expose a large amount of data to employees about themselves, but not only about themselves, but also to their managers. And so, you know, we went through the basic you know, develop it, and then put it into our test environment, however the problem that we had was that we couldn't assimilate the large amount of data that we're exposing to 40,000 FBI employees. Because when we tested out, everything seemed to go fine, but as luck would have it, once we went operational, the application crashed. Our two main engineers come in my office and within 30 minutes, they identified the problem, they had the solution, and we already implemented the solution. Within 30 minutes. You know, going back in the past, like seven years, like you were mentioning, back in the old days, I would have to go around, beg for funding, buy hardware, then I would have to submit a requisition. It would have to go through the approval process. We then would have to procure the hardware, receive the hardware, install it, test it out, load the application, test it again, and then go into Ops. You know, you're lookin' anywhere from a three month to a nine month delay right then and there that our engineers were able to solve within 30 minutes. >> I mean, again, I'm back to my bias again. I'm old enough to remember when I was in college. I mean, I never programmed on punch cards, so that's kind of dates me, (chuckling) but so I'm post punch card generation. I used to look at the guys runnin' the mainframes sayin', "Look at those old relics over there," and "huggin' the mainframe." But what they did was that the smart people repurposed and got into mini-computers, they got into networking, LANs and PCs. This is kind of the cloud moment where if you're going to hold onto that old way you're going to have that operating model, it's just not effective in any way. I just don't see any benefit, other than have a preserved workload that needs the certain data, or you put containers around it and you can bring that in, but there are those corner cases. But generally speaking, you got to move to the new model. >> Mm-hmm. >> Guys, react to that. What's your thoughts? >> Yeah. >> Evermore. Yeah. >> Yeah, I agree, I mean It can't really be overstated, just the flexibility that exists. I think a lot of times, people get hung up on the you know, most efficient way to move to the cloud or you have to use X amount of cloud services. But it can't be overstated, regardless of the approach that you take to making that migration, that once you are there, the kind of intangibles that you get, the ease to take an idea and test it out, flip the switch on, flip the switch off if you like it or not. It's really just opened the door for the team to take some of the more innovative ideas and we have regular conversations with Frank and others that I think are fun for all of us where we get to look at some of these things and we can actually think about and envision how to get them in without, to Frank's point, "putting in requisitions," doing major activities that are going to derail our other schedules to pilot some of these new ideas. >> Frank, you got to attract some, it's a personnel challenge, too. You want to attract young minds, smart, young people. They want what's contemporary and they want state-of-the-art, they want to be in the right positions, drivin' the right, fastest car they can, and being successful. There's a staff component. What's your thoughts on that? Because, you know, if a young person comes in it's like, "Hey, I want to rock and roll with this new stuff, "not the old stuff I see there." >> Right. >> And so Greg put together an innovation team where we have these great, young minds, right? And you know, they're always bringing different ideas, different services that we can utilize on AWS, and sometimes Greg and I have to pull the reins on 'em, like, "Okay, we'll do that, but we have "major applications that we got to develop and deploy." But it's always refreshing and great to see young people with their innovative ideas that they bring to the table. >> Well, final question for you guys, while I got ya here. You know, I've been reporting, we've been saying on these CUBE interviews, trying to make sense of this COVID environment, what's goin' on and what it exposes. And you can see the obvious things. But it generally exposes this great IoT experiment. We're all IoT devices at this point. You've got work places which are not home and office, workforces which are remote, workloads and workflows that are changing, new things are happening. How do you guys see this? Because it ultimately opens up the fact that the architecture has to support multiple endpoints, edge of the network, new connections, new workflows. How are you guys looking at this? What's your vision on this? >> So Greg, I'll take a first crack at it from a Bureau employee being with the Bureau for 31 years. I would never have thought in my wildest dreams that we'd actually have people workin' from home and being able to remote in, and actually do development. And we did it all within two weeks. It's just incredible the obstacles that the team overcome, but also the flexibility of the FBI leadership, knowing that this had to happen in order to, for continuity of operations. >> Great point, great insight. Greg, your thoughts. >> Yeah, I agree with everything that Frank said. It's been a great partnership and I think that the nice thing that surprised us all was when it got down to it, the security controls and requirements were there and able to be met with the tools at our disposal. So I think the great fear that everybody had to Frank's point, it just wasn't something that was normal to this point. But as we were all forced to reevaluate what we had to do, the fear was, "Well, what accommodations are we "going to have to make from a security standpoint?" And the answer was being able to operate again without exposing any of that data, the risk was really extremely low, to zero. All the folks from security we're able to work closely with in partnership, and make this happen again so we can keep delivering the mission. So I think that partnership and getting through it together and all feeling really comfortable that we're doing it in a secure way was really what enabled us to be successful. >> That's a great point. Frank, he brings up something I didn't bring up which is super important. You mentioned in the old way you got to get all these requisitions in purchase. Security is the same kind of new dynamic which is like, "Okay, you got to get "everything tested," but it goes faster when you have the cloud 'cause that's also another criteria, you got to still got to get the approvals whether you're working with another vendor or integrating with another app. That's still now the new issue. So that's got to be approved faster, so that's also now a bottleneck. How does cloud help make those security reviews go faster? >> Right, so so we were the first ones on the cloud. So or security team was still defining the ATO process for us. However, what we did was we aligned ourselves with that team so that we could meet all the security requirements, but also app out all the security controls. And so from the time that we actually had the design till we went into deployment onto the SC2S or the cloud, and we went through the ATO process, it only took us eight months which really, in the past, that effort could have took anywhere from a year and a half to two years just because of the old ATO process. >> Awesome. Well, Greg and Frank, congratulations on a great award, Amazon Public Sector Partner Awards Show, most customer-obsessed mission-based win in the federal category. Congratulations. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Okay, theCUBE's coverage of AWS Public Sector Partner Awards Show, I'm John Furrier, your host of theCUBE. Thanks for watching. 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(upbeat music) >> Announcer: From around the globe, it's theCUBE with digital coverage of AWS Public Sector Partner Awards. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services. >> Hi everyone, welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of AWS Public Sector Partner Awards Show. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. We're here in Paolo Alto, California but during COVID, we're doin' all the remote interviews and gettin' the stories and celebrating the awards for the Partner Awards Show. And the award here is most customer-obsessed mission-based win in the federal area. We've got two great guests, Greg Siegel Senior Manager at Accenture and Frank Urbano Program Manager with the FBI Federal Bureau of Investigation. Gentlemen, thank you for joining me and congratulations on the win. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> So let's break this down. So you're federal, big category, a lot of intelligence agencies been using the gov cloud and Amazon. What's the mission win? What's the award for? Tell us. >> So I guess the award is the Bureau was shutting down our data centers and we needed to move to an infrastructure that would support our application. That was the first problem that we were trying to actually solve. But also, we know we were always seeing a performance hit on our infrastructure, and we always suspected that by moving to the gov cloud, we'll see an increase in performance because once we went live in our current, in or old environment seven years ago, performance was always an issue, our end users were always complaining and then we moved to our VMs four years after that. We saw an increase in performance a little bit but then once we moved over to the cloud, the FBI secret cloud, we heard crickets. The end users haven't been complaining. Greg and I were actually talking about that the other day how, you know, there's minimal complaints as far as performance. That's going to be one of the themes you hear throughout is performance, performance, performance. >> Got to love the no complaints, that means it's workin', people are doin' their job, gettin' the job done. Greg, I want to get your thoughts on this because Accenture, we've had many conversations with you guys over there about being agile and now you're a partner. You know, the FBI, I saw a presentation in person at Reinvent, I think last year where the FBI was like, "Lookit, our workloads "are increasing and budget isn't increasing "at the same rate." So it's kind of like, you know, "I need more power." It's like that scene in Star Trek, "Scotty, more power," you need to get that power. Take us through that transformation because one, you got a good user experience. That means people are doin' their job. But the cases get bigger, the more workload is there, but the budget's got to be increased or leveraged better. What's your thoughts? How do you tackle that problem because it's do more with less, classic do more with less. >> That's right. Yeah, so as Frank said, I think the system had been live for about seven years and you see over that time in the traditional data centers how the performance requirements increase but as you said, are kind of there on hardware and not easily able to adapt and overcome those. So, you know, when it became clear that the cloud move was a serious consideration we were able to pull on a few other experiences that the firm has had moving similar technologies to the cloud and then kind of combined that with the experience implementing technology at the FBI. And those two components kind of together were able to get us on a path to successfully move to the cloud and be, you know, kind of one of the first big systems at the FBI to make that transition. So that was our approach. >> Frank, I'd like to ask, you mentioned crickets. That means, that's good, actually. No one's complaining. What was it like before when you had the data center? What were some of the complaints? What were some of the challenges that you were dealing with? >> So (chuckling) so some of the challenges we were dealing with was, to give an example, when we went live seven years ago, we actually deployed our application on hardware that was already end of life. And so immediately we saw challenges there. And so by moving to the cloud, it gave us a lot of architectural flexibility. And what I mean by that is that we control, now, our own destiny, meaning that in the past, we would have to put in change requests to have firewall configuration changes. Now that responsibility is with us. Our DBAs had limited access to actually do some type of performance tuning on the backend to our databases. Now we have full control of that. I guess a couple of examples, or one example that I would give is that we're in the COVID era, as you mentioned, right? We have a space where we, prior to COVID, we had about 70 people on staff, both government and at Accenture. And all of our development is done on the secret side. And we have major deliverables due at the end of September. Well, COVID hits, we now have to social distance and come up with a plan, and we have to have reduce our staff of 70, both functional developers down to anywhere between 10 people or less on-site. So that, right there, you know, we were talking major hit in our development effort and in cost, I guess, also. While we're doing our social distancing plan Greg came up to me and said, "Hey, why don't we move "our development environment and our test environment "to the gov cloud and scramble the data. "We'll be able to have our developers remote access in "and continue with our development efforts?" And I told Greg, "Great, put a plan together. "Let's talk to our information security officer." I said, "If he signs off on it, let's get off and running." We met with him, he signed off on them, and within two weeks that dev and test environment was up and running. And now, we're still on-track to meet our deliverable dates in September. >> That's a great example, well, that's awesome insight. Greg, expand on that because this is an example of agility. You talk about readiness, I mean it's unforecasted disruption, there's all kinds of use cases. "Oh, we have a hurricane," or whatever, you know. This is unforeseen and unique. Take us through-- >> Yeah, that's absolutely right. >> The agility piece here, on how you got deployed, time frame, and solution. >> Yeah, definitely. So yeah, it can't be overstated how much of a benefit it was that we had already gone through the process of refactoring a lot of our applications into the cloud and using some of those services available and, you know, able to containerize and take some of those application from where they were, as Frank mentioned, scramble the data, and then able to quickly use the cloud experience that we had to stand up an environment in gov cloud where it was more accessible for development that didn't need to take place on-site, was, essentially, the saving grace. We would have had major slowdowns in delivery, as Frank mentioned and a lot of cost implications there, so it really can't be overstated how much that experience having gone through it and being in a spot where we had that flexibility to quickly replicate our architecture, went a long way towards keeping the mission going as the world deals with the pandemic. >> Yeah, this is just a striking example. You know, first of all, I'm a cloud-biased person. I'm very much a, I lean heavily towards pro-cloud so I'll just say this as total bias. There are companies that have gone cloud and took advantage of that refactoring or reinvention and are in a position not only to hit the deadlines but also be in a position of growth strategy, or in this case, a mission-based expansion for the FBI, as Frank was alluding to. Could you imagine, Frank, if you had the data center challenge and you weren't in the cloud? And the you had to go to Greg, or somebody, and say, "Hey, what do you do?" So imagine you had the data center, and then COVID hits. A lot of people are on that side of the street, right now, goin', "What do we do?" >> Yeah, yeah we would have been dead in the water as Greg mentioned. You know, all of our work streams would have been forced out to the left. I couldn't even imagine, you know, the timelines that we would have had to come up with because we would have had to have come up with some rotation plan to develop, you know, team one can only come in on Mondays and Tuesdays and then team two would come in on Wednesdays and Thursdays which would have pushed out our delivery dates and as Greg mentioned also, cost goes up. Time is money, money's time. >> Yeah, I totally, and people goin' out of business because of it and, or settin' their mission back you know, decades. Greg, talk about what goes on next because obviously, congratulations on being a customer success, it's a great mission win here, but you got to get through this. So how are you guys huddling on this point? What are the conversations? What are you thinking? >> Yeah, so now we're at a point where I think, as I'd mentioned, when we first moved to the cloud, the primary mission was getting there securely, getting there within policy, and getting operational so we were making trade-off decisions on where to lift and shift, and where to refactor. Got through all of that successfully. Got through the initial challenge of COVID which definitely threw some of the plans for a loop as we shifted our operations and focused on getting operational in gov cloud. And now we are at a point where we've stabilized delivery again, and we're re-picking up where we left off on the cloud journey which is really focused now, on continuing to look at the investments that AWS is making in the technologies that are coming next. And it really enables us to get ahead of the trends, easily analyze some of these services, available, and then we enter into conversations with Frank and others and start making those trade-off decisions of when it's time to refactor, retire another part of our application and start to look to go cloud-native. So that's where we are now, is looking for ways to maximize and use those services to, again, save costs, improve performance, all of those things that go along with getting more and more mature in the cloud. >> You know, one of the things, Frank, I want to hear your thoughts on just as while I got you guys here is you think about old school, old guard, as Andy Jassy would say, or Teresa talk about. You got silos and you got all these things: legacy. Okay, got that. But as you guys look at your mission have secure data, catch the bad guys, and protect citizens, right? So (chuckling) I mean, I'm over-simplifying but generally, that's it. Data's critical, right? I mean, speed to the edge of the network which is the field and the people doing the job, is critical. Cloud has an opportunity to make that development cycle faster, and ultimately, the workloads and the impact. Could you share your thoughts on how the cloud and Amazon are bringin' that to the table because havin' the right data at the right time could mean the difference between life or death. >> Yeah, so Greg and I experienced this, and again, it's all about having that architectural flexibility, right? So back in February, we had a requirement where we had to expose a large amount of data to employees about themselves, but not only about themselves, but also to their managers. And so, you know, we went through the basic you know, develop it, and then put it into our test environment, however the problem that we had was that we couldn't assimilate the large amount of data that we're exposing to 40,000 FBI employees. Because when we tested out, everything seemed to go fine, but as luck would have it, once we went operational, the application crashed. Our two main engineers come in my office and within 30 minutes, they identified the problem, they had the solution, and we already implemented the solution. Within 30 minutes. You know, going back in the past, like seven years, like you were mentioning, back in the old days, I would have to go around, beg for funding, buy hardware, then I would have to submit a requisition. It would have to go through the approval process. We then would have to procure the hardware, receive the hardware, install it, test it out, load the application, test it again, and then go into Ops. You know, you're lookin' anywhere from a three month to a nine month delay right then and there that our engineers were able to solve within 30 minutes. >> I mean, again, I'm back to my bias again. I'm old enough to remember when I was in college. I mean, I never programmed on punch cards, so that's kind of dates me, (chuckling) but so I'm post punch card generation. I used to look at the guys runnin' the mainframes sayin', "Look at those old relics over there," and "huggin' the mainframe." But what they did was that the smart people repurposed and got into mini-computers, they got into networking, LANs and PCs. This is kind of the cloud moment where if you're going to hold onto that old way you're going to have that operating model, it's just not effective in any way. I just don't see any benefit, other than have a preserved workload that needs the certain data, or you put containers around it and you can bring that in, but there are those corner cases. But generally speaking, you got to move to the new model. >> Mm-hmm. >> Guys, react to that. What's your thoughts? >> Yeah. >> Evermore. Yeah. >> Yeah, I agree, I mean It can't really be overstated, just the flexibility that exists. I think a lot of times, people get hung up on the you know, most efficient way to move to the cloud or you have to use X amount of cloud services. But it can't be overstated, regardless of the approach that you take to making that migration, that once you are there, the kind of intangibles that you get, the ease to take an idea and test it out, flip the switch on, flip the switch off if you like it or not. It's really just opened the door for the team to take some of the more innovative ideas and we have regular conversations with Frank and others that I think are fun for all of us where we get to look at some of these things and we can actually think about and envision how to get them in without, to Frank's point, "putting in requisitions," doing major activities that are going to derail our other schedules to pilot some of these new ideas. >> Frank, you got to attract some, it's a personnel challenge, too. You want to attract young minds, smart, young people. They want what's contemporary and they want state-of-the-art, they want to be in the right positions, drivin' the right, fastest car they can, and being successful. There's a staff component. What's your thoughts on that? Because, you know, if a young person comes in it's like, "Hey, I want to rock and roll with this new stuff, "not the old stuff I see there." >> Right. >> And so Greg put together an innovation team where we have these great, young minds, right? And you know, they're always bringing different ideas, different services that we can utilize on AWS, and sometimes Greg and I have to pull the reins on 'em, like, "Okay, we'll do that, but we have "major applications that we got to develop and deploy." But it's always refreshing and great to see young people with their innovative ideas that they bring to the table. >> Well, final question for you guys, while I got ya here. You know, I've been reporting, we've been saying on these CUBE interviews, trying to make sense of this COVID environment, what's goin' on and what it exposes. And you can see the obvious things. But it generally exposes this great IoT experiment. We're all IoT devices at this point. You've got work places which are not home and office, workforces which are remote, workloads and workflows that are changing, new things are happening. How do you guys see this? Because it ultimately opens up the fact that the architecture has to support multiple endpoints, edge of the network, new connections, new workflows. How are you guys looking at this? What's your vision on this? >> So Greg, I'll take a first crack at it from a Bureau employee being with the Bureau for 31 years. I would never have thought in my wildest dreams that we'd actually have people workin' from home and being able to remote in, and actually do development. And we did it all within two weeks. It's just incredible the obstacles that the team overcome, but also the flexibility of the FBI leadership, knowing that this had to happen in order to, for continuity of operations. >> Great point, great insight. Greg, your thoughts. >> Yeah, I agree with everything that Frank said. It's been a great partnership and I think that the nice thing that surprised us all was when it got down to it, the security controls and requirements were there and able to be met with the tools at our disposal. So I think the great fear that everybody had to Frank's point, it just wasn't something that was normal to this point. But as we were all forced to reevaluate what we had to do, the fear was, "Well, what accommodations are we "going to have to make from a security standpoint?" And the answer was being able to operate again without exposing any of that data, the risk was really extremely low, to zero. All the folks from security we're able to work closely with in partnership, and make this happen again so we can keep delivering the mission. So I think that partnership and getting through it together and all feeling really comfortable that we're doing it in a secure way was really what enabled us to be successful. >> That's a great point. Frank, he brings up something I didn't bring up which is super important. You mentioned in the old way you got to get all these requisitions in purchase. Security is the same kind of new dynamic which is like, "Okay, you got to get "everything tested," but it goes faster when you have the cloud 'cause that's also another criteria, you got to still got to get the approvals whether you're working with another vendor or integrating with another app. That's still now the new issue. So that's got to be approved faster, so that's also now a bottleneck. How does cloud help make those security reviews go faster? >> Right, so so we were the first ones on the cloud. So or security team was still defining the ATO process for us. However, what we did was we aligned ourselves with that team so that we could meet all the security requirements, but also app out all the security controls. And so from the time that we actually had the design till we went into deployment onto the SC2S or the cloud, and we went through the ATO process, it only took us eight months which really, in the past, that effort could have took anywhere from a year and a half to two years just because of the old ATO process. >> Awesome. Well, Greg and Frank, congratulations on a great award, Amazon Public Sector Partner Awards Show, most customer-obsessed mission-based win in the federal category. Congratulations. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Okay, theCUBE's coverage of AWS Public Sector Partner Awards Show, I'm John Furrier, your host of theCUBE. Thanks for watching. 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>> From Las Vegas, it's theCUBE. Covering Open Systems, the future is crystal clear with security and SD-WAN. Brought to you by Open Systems >> Hello everyone, welcome to theCUBE, We're here in Las Vegas again for another awesome set of conversations. CUBE coverage here at the Cosmopolitan hotel at the Chandelier Bar. We're here covering Open Systems having a special event in conjunction with a lot of the conference going on, Gardner has a big symposium, lot of things happening, we're here with M.K. Palmore whose the head of the FBI'S cyber security, San Francisco branch of the FBI, great to have you thanks for spending time. >> Thanks for having me, John. Much appreciated >> Chandelier Bar, everyone's having a good time, you guys had a lot of sessions today, conversations. You gave a speech today during a session around info sec and culture. >> Info sec risk and leadership. >> Okay talk about that, what will you, what was your main theme. >> Yeah, so I've over the past five years or so had the opportunity to go out and speak a lot about the cyber threat landscape. Going into this year, because the message is getting a little stayed and old, I think I want to concentrate on those issues that I think can help move the ball down the field a little bit. So, talking about cyber security risks as an enterprise risk, discussing it as a matter of an enterprises responsibility to address cyber securities as an enterprise risk is an important message to carry, and I like to add in topics and subjects about leadership, and tie all of those in because in my view, information security professionals have to be leaders as well, because we're all venturing into space that's not known to us. >> That's a great point, leadership also has to take into the new environment, your dealing with you know, a decentralized threat landscape, distributed, decentralized. >> Global. >> Back in the old days when I was in college, you get a pager, you get a new one, now you get flip phones and you can swap em out, now you're everywhere, you got social media, the ability to dodge the authorities, is easier, almost easier than ever before, requires you guys to be on your toes, to catch the bad guys, you need cutting edge technology, but you got to have a mindset in a management culture of leadership, to empower people at the edges. How are you guys thinking about, cause this is like one of the main cyber topics is, setting that system up to be nimble, reactive, used data, >> Right. >> What's your thoughts? >> Yeah so I mean, frankly the FBI is learning in new ways to approach this cyber security problem. We understand that we have to hire the right people with the right talent and that we as an organization we're used, frankly we're used to fighting you know, bad guys in the streets, are now taking this fight to the networked environment and we have to come up with new ways of tackling the problem. One of the biggest problems that we face and you touched on it, is that near 100% anonymity that criminals enjoy operating in the network environment, that ability to conduct transactions, that ability to essentially go unnoticed for long periods of time, without anyone knowing your true identity, creates a huge obstacle for law enforcement, but the good thing is that frankly it's something that we're very good at in terms of identifying whose on the other end of the keyboard, but it takes a lot of work. >> You know I'm old enough to have some friends that have graduated from you know, criminal justice majors when I was in college, I was a CS major, they went DEA, FBI, so a lot of friends and it's evolved a lot from having that branch office >> Yes. >> Focus, you now have digital, and one comment that always kind of resonated from my friends that were in the law enforcement area goes, John it's like putting the puzzle together, and you got to get the puzzle pieces to put it all together >> Right. >> Now you have a sea of puzzle pieces, it's almost like a three dimensional puzzle, because you have to get the data, you got to understand the landscape now and multiple dimensions >> Right. >> That you just mentioned. How do you guys keep up with putting that puzzle together, before it changes? >> We get a lot of help, right, so what we're used to doing is using the FBI'S special agent as the main tool of our investigations, in the cyber world we've had to add some pieces to that, not only is there specific training now for cyber agents, those agents that are charged with investigating intrusions, we have computer scientists, we have data analysts, we have folks that we bring to bear, in any one particular investigation, who add talents and tools that every, you know it's like, everyone is at the table on these investigations bringing different aspects of the investigation together and it is like you said, multiple data points and as any investigation is, lots of pieces being brought together to tell a story that we ultimately have to, you know convince the judge of, in terms of judge and a jury sometimes, of the validity of what it is that we've found. >> So timing is very important as well. >> Timing's huge, as we like to say, we want to be involved in intrusion matters as quickly, and as often as we can. Part of the challenge that we face is that there's a little bit of tug and pull between us and the private sector, and we aren't always brought in as early in a breach investigation as we would like to be, and those, it's valuable, valuable minutes, valuable days that are lost sometimes in that, in that transactional process. >> I interviewed Christine Halverson, I don't even, I'm sorry I didn't interview her, I watched her give a presentation amazon reinvent last week, she gave a key, one of the key notes during a public sector summit, Teresa Carlson's breakfast that she had, and she said something very fascinating she said, we are in a data crisis at the FBI, meaning that they have to put the puzzle pieces together and get it done quick, it was something along those lines, but she said that the FBI has been very progressive in adopting new technology, you guys are moving very very fast and she said she's excited by that but she said we need the data, whether that's being called in quickly, >> Right. >> And or getting access to other data bases, right, so it's like the data is out there, so you guys need access to that, how do you guys, how do you, how's the FBI evolving with that, architectural cloud and what not, and how are you enabling the tools for the field agents, and the people in the trenches? >> So the data analytics is an interesting area to dive deeply into, I mean we face the same challenges as any private organization, in terms of how we intake the data, how the data's organized, how it is that we then retrieve the data, look at it, how it relates to the different data points relate to one another, we face all of those same challenges and we have the added challenge, I think in the environment that we're in, in terms of how we're able to adopt private sector products that are out there that might meet our needs, I mean I've been in government now for over 30 years, it's a bit of a challenge being able to acquire the types of platforms and products that you, that you would want to have as quickly as you would like to have them, but eventually we do get down those roads, we do adopt platforms that are useful to us, and again like everyone else, we're trying to move as quickly as we possibly can in this environment to keep up with the bad guys. >> And you guys do a great job moving those antiquated inadequate systems to more real time, >> We try. >> State of the art. >> We try. >> So I interviewed General Keith Alexander once, and we talked about identity and private sector, public sector collaboration. Can you share your thoughts on that, because this is something that's become a bigger trend recently in the past five to 10 years, past three years in particular where it's a sharing culture it's not just, well I'm not going to call the FBI they're going to come in, it's no no we're going to bring them in early, whether it's a breach you think, or someone hiding, I mean the Marriot thing they didn't even know they were there! So, you guys are now spending more time collaborating with the enterprises and businesses, how has that changed your approach, your posture, how you look at the data, can you give some insight into that? >> Yeah so I mean a lot of it's about relationship building, I will tell you that, in the San Francisco division one of the priorities we have within our cyber branch, is to ensure that we have a certain level of rapport, not just with the big tech giants in the valley, but also with the medium size enterprises and the small enterprises, we spend a fair amount of time putting ourselves in front of the C-Suites, boards of directors and talking to them about one, what capabilities the FBI brings to the table, we open the lines of communication with them and we build a rapport, in such a way that it allows them the trust to then bring problems to us and we then begin an exchange of information. The point you made about, public, private collaboration, it's an absolute must, there's no way we get through this tough period that we're in, without both sides sitting down at the table, establishing some trust, and then moving together to solve these problems. >> The other thing I'd observe and you may or may not want to comment on this, love to see if you would comment, but the notion of agility, especially with data and systems and cloud computing. CIA, the Department of Defense, are moving to systems that can be as reactive and accurate as possible, and this is a changing of relationship to the suppliers! >> Right. >> You know, and the government, oh multiple suppliers, we got to do five different things, >> Right. >> But if the systems don't talk to each other, you guys can't be fast. This is seat change and the mindset. >> The whole government I think is beginning to understand that in this world, technology, we need to be much more agile in terms of our adoption of new products that will allow us to combat crime, and frankly the threat from the national security sector that we're responsible for responding to. So we understand that there's a certain level of agility historically not present, that we need to move the marker to get towards. >> Let me ask you a question, does the FBI have an app store? (John laughs) >> So what, we have secured telephones that we utilize and we certainly have an approved list of apps that we're allowed to have on our phones, so we do. The short answer to that is yes, it's a very truncated list of apps that we have available to us, but they're helpful. >> Well we were joking. Well we were joking at reinvent and all these cloud conferences because, the developer now, building a right new software apps is faster, so this whole dev ops ethos of cloud computing >> Secure DevOps yeah. >> And so secure DevOps is really interesting because now you don't have to, you can free up the data in the infrastructure and yes infrastructure is code, your going to see a renaissance of new applications, so the joke was, you know you made it when you have an app store inside the FBI, there's an app for that. Okay, final question for you, as you guys do your thing and I know you get called in a lot to mentor and also collaborate with enterprises, what's your advice on the info sec landscape? Do you talk to CSO's and CXO's, CSO's in particular are under a lot of pressure, >> Right. >> Board level kind of responsibility, not part of IT anymore they are now a critical piece of building out these teams, what's your advice to them in terms of either, whether there's observation's our best practice that you've seen, that they can think about? >> So a couple of the points that I typically hit on in my talks, that I hit on today, one is this idea of looking at cyber security as an enterprise risk which you just talked about. We need to get away from the old school thought process of cyber being an IT function, right? It's an enterprise risk, it needs to be talked about in terms of risk, the language of risk management, with the C-Suite, with the boards of directors, because when you talk in a language of the likelihood of an event happening, the impact to the organization and what that means in terms of, daily revenue, daily dollars to the business, that's a language that business owners and business leaders understand. So the oweness is on information security leaders to adopt this language, so that we can communicate our needs to our colleagues in the C-Suite and the boards of directors. It's a seat change for information security professionals because this is not a language that they are typically used to speaking. >> And they got to level up there too because this is the reality. >> Absolutely. >> Alright, final final question, what's the most exciting thing that you're working on and or you're seeing happening around you, that you get up in the morning and say, man I'm so excited to work on that. Or trend or technology. >> I'll tell you when you work for an organization like the FBI, which I've done for almost 22 years, at the end of the day it's getting exposure to people who are engaged in trying to achieve the FBI's mission on a day to day basis and at the end of the day, I don't care how much technology you have around you, I don't care how much policy you have in place, having the right people in place who are dedicated to what we're trying to accomplish, that's the thing I get the most juice out of on a day to day basis, we get to actually, in this portion of my career, really work with some of the most talented people that the FBI has. >> And their being empowered more than ever right now in this technology >> Absolutely. >> M.K. Palmore thanks for coming on theCUBE appreciate it. Head of the FBI cyber security in San Francisco. It's theCUBE here in Las Vegas at the Chandelier Bar in the Cosmopolitan, breaking it down. Part of Open Systems private event, they just had a lot of stuff going on with Gardner, lot of events happening here in Vegas, I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. (modern music)

(upbeat music) >> Hello and welcome to theCube's coverage of International Women's Day. I'm John Furrier, your host of "theCUBE." We've got great two remote guests coming into our Palo Alto Studios, some tech athletes, as we say, people that've been in the trenches, years of experience, Lena Smart, CISO at MongoDB, Cube alumni, and Tara Hernandez, VP of Developer Productivity at MongoDB as well. Thanks for coming in to this program and supporting our efforts today. Thanks so much. >> Thanks for having us. >> Yeah, everyone talk about the journey in tech, where it all started. Before we get there, talk about what you guys are doing at MongoDB specifically. MongoDB is kind of gone the next level as a platform. You have your own ecosystem, lot of developers, very technical crowd, but it's changing the business transformation. What do you guys do at Mongo? We'll start with you, Lena. >> So I'm the CISO, so all security goes through me. I like to say, well, I don't like to say, I'm described as the ones throat to choke. So anything to do with security basically starts and ends with me. We do have a fantastic Cloud engineering security team and a product security team, and they don't report directly to me, but obviously we have very close relationships. I like to keep that kind of church and state separate and I know I've spoken about that before. And we just recently set up a physical security team with an amazing gentleman who left the FBI and he came to join us after 26 years for the agency. So, really starting to look at the physical aspects of what we offer as well. >> I interviewed a CISO the other day and she said, "Every day is day zero for me." Kind of goofing on the Amazon Day one thing, but Tara, go ahead. Tara, go ahead. What's your role there, developer productivity? What are you focusing on? >> Sure. Developer productivity is kind of the latest description for things that we've described over the years as, you know, DevOps oriented engineering or platform engineering or build and release engineering development infrastructure. It's all part and parcel, which is how do we actually get our code from developer to customer, you know, and all the mechanics that go into that. It's been something I discovered from my first job way back in the early '90s at Borland. And the art has just evolved enormously ever since, so. >> Yeah, this is a very great conversation both of you guys, right in the middle of all the action and data infrastructures changing, exploding, and involving big time AI and data tsunami and security never stops. Well, let's get into, we'll talk about that later, but let's get into what motivated you guys to pursue a career in tech and what were some of the challenges that you faced along the way? >> I'll go first. The fact of the matter was I intended to be a double major in history and literature when I went off to university, but I was informed that I had to do a math or a science degree or else the university would not be paid for. At the time, UC Santa Cruz had a policy that called Open Access Computing. This is, you know, the late '80s, early '90s. And anybody at the university could get an email account and that was unusual at the time if you were, those of us who remember, you used to have to pay for that CompuServe or AOL or, there's another one, I forget what it was called, but if a student at Santa Cruz could have an email account. And because of that email account, I met people who were computer science majors and I'm like, "Okay, I'll try that." That seems good. And it was a little bit of a struggle for me, a lot I won't lie, but I can't complain with how it ended up. And certainly once I found my niche, which was development infrastructure, I found my true love and I've been doing it for almost 30 years now. >> Awesome. Great story. Can't wait to ask a few questions on that. We'll go back to that late '80s, early '90s. Lena, your journey, how you got into it. >> So slightly different start. I did not go to university. I had to leave school when I was 16, got a job, had to help support my family. Worked a bunch of various jobs till I was about 21 and then computers became more, I think, I wouldn't say they were ubiquitous, but they were certainly out there. And I'd also been saving up every penny I could earn to buy my own computer and bought an Amstrad 1640, 20 meg hard drive. It rocked. And kind of took that apart, put it back together again, and thought that could be money in this. And so basically just teaching myself about computers any job that I got. 'Cause most of my jobs were like clerical work and secretary at that point. But any job that had a computer in front of that, I would make it my business to go find the guy who did computing 'cause it was always a guy. And I would say, you know, I want to learn how these work. Let, you know, show me. And, you know, I would take my lunch hour and after work and anytime I could with these people and they were very kind with their time and I just kept learning, so yep. >> Yeah, those early days remind me of the inflection point we're going through now. This major C change coming. Back then, if you had a computer, you had to kind of be your own internal engineer to fix things. Remember back on the systems revolution, late '80s, Tara, when, you know, your career started, those were major inflection points. Now we're seeing a similar wave right now, security, infrastructure. It feels like it's going to a whole nother level. At Mongo, you guys certainly see this as well, with this AI surge coming in. A lot more action is coming in. And so there's a lot of parallels between these inflection points. How do you guys see this next wave of change? Obviously, the AI stuff's blowing everyone away. Oh, new user interface. It's been called the browser moment, the mobile iPhone moment, kind of for this generation. There's a lot of people out there who are watching that are young in their careers, what's your take on this? How would you talk to those folks around how important this wave is? >> It, you know, it's funny, I've been having this conversation quite a bit recently in part because, you know, to me AI in a lot of ways is very similar to, you know, back in the '90s when we were talking about bringing in the worldwide web to the forefront of the world, right. And we tended to think in terms of all the optimistic benefits that would come of it. You know, free passing of information, availability to anyone, anywhere. You just needed an internet connection, which back then of course meant a modem. >> John: Not everyone had though. >> Exactly. But what we found in the subsequent years is that human beings are what they are and we bring ourselves to whatever platforms that are there, right. And so, you know, as much as it was amazing to have this freely available HTML based internet experience, it also meant that the negatives came to the forefront quite quickly. And there were ramifications of that. And so to me, when I look at AI, we're already seeing the ramifications to that. Yes, are there these amazing, optimistic, wonderful things that can be done? Yes. >> Yeah. >> But we're also human and the bad stuff's going to come out too. And how do we- >> Yeah. >> How do we as an industry, as a community, you know, understand and mitigate those ramifications so that we can benefit more from the positive than the negative. So it is interesting that it comes kind of full circle in really interesting ways. >> Yeah. The underbelly takes place first, gets it in the early adopter mode. Normally industries with, you know, money involved arbitrage, no standards. But we've seen this movie before. Is there hope, Lena, that we can have a more secure environment? >> I would hope so. (Lena laughs) Although depressingly, we've been in this well for 30 years now and we're, at the end of the day, still telling people not to click links on emails. So yeah, that kind of still keeps me awake at night a wee bit. The whole thing about AI, I mean, it's, obviously I am not an expert by any stretch of the imagination in AI. I did read (indistinct) book recently about AI and that was kind of interesting. And I'm just trying to teach myself as much as I can about it to the extent of even buying the "Dummies Guide to AI." Just because, it's actually not a dummies guide. It's actually fairly interesting, but I'm always thinking about it from a security standpoint. So it's kind of my worst nightmare and the best thing that could ever happen in the same dream. You know, you've got this technology where I can ask it a question and you know, it spits out generally a reasonable answer. And my team are working on with Mark Porter our CTO and his team on almost like an incubation of AI link. What would it look like from MongoDB? What's the legal ramifications? 'Cause there will be legal ramifications even though it's the wild, wild west just now, I think. Regulation's going to catch up to us pretty quickly, I would think. >> John: Yeah, yeah. >> And so I think, you know, as long as companies have a seat at the table and governments perhaps don't become too dictatorial over this, then hopefully we'll be in a good place. But we'll see. I think it's a really interest, there's that curse, we're living in interesting times. I think that's where we are. >> It's interesting just to stay on this tech trend for a minute. The standards bodies are different now. Back in the old days there were, you know, IEEE standards, ITF standards. >> Tara: TPC. >> The developers are the new standard. I mean, now you're seeing open source completely different where it was in the '90s to here beginning, that was gen one, some say gen two, but I say gen one, now we're exploding with open source. You have kind of developers setting the standards. If developers like it in droves, it becomes defacto, which then kind of rolls into implementation. >> Yeah, I mean I think if you don't have developer input, and this is why I love working with Tara and her team so much is 'cause they get it. If we don't have input from developers, it's not going to get used. There's going to be ways of of working around it, especially when it comes to security. If they don't, you know, if you're a developer and you're sat at your screen and you don't want to do that particular thing, you're going to find a way around it. You're a smart person. >> Yeah. >> So. >> Developers on the front lines now versus, even back in the '90s, they're like, "Okay, consider the dev's, got a QA team." Everything was Waterfall, now it's Cloud, and developers are on the front lines of everything. Tara, I mean, this is where the standards are being met. What's your reaction to that? >> Well, I think it's outstanding. I mean, you know, like I was at Netscape and part of the crowd that released the browser as open source and we founded mozilla.org, right. And that was, you know, in many ways kind of the birth of the modern open source movement beyond what we used to have, what was basically free software foundation was sort of the only game in town. And I think it is so incredibly valuable. I want to emphasize, you know, and pile onto what Lena was saying, it's not just that the developers are having input on a sort of company by company basis. Open source to me is like a checks and balance, where it allows us as a broader community to be able to agree on and enforce certain standards in order to try and keep the technology platforms as accessible as possible. I think Kubernetes is a great example of that, right. If we didn't have Kubernetes, that would've really changed the nature of how we think about container orchestration. But even before that, Linux, right. Linux allowed us as an industry to end the Unix Wars and as someone who was on the front lines of that as well and having to support 42 different operating systems with our product, you know, that was a huge win. And it allowed us to stop arguing about operating systems and start arguing about software or not arguing, but developing it in positive ways. So with, you know, with Kubernetes, with container orchestration, we all agree, okay, that's just how we're going to orchestrate. Now we can build up this huge ecosystem, everybody gets taken along, right. And now it changes the game for what we're defining as business differentials, right. And so when we talk about crypto, that's a little bit harder, but certainly with AI, right, you know, what are the checks and balances that as an industry and as the developers around this, that we can in, you know, enforce to make sure that no one company or no one body is able to overly control how these things are managed, how it's defined. And I think that is only for the benefit in the industry as a whole, particularly when we think about the only other option is it gets regulated in ways that do not involve the people who actually know the details of what they're talking about. >> Regulated and or thrown away or bankrupt or- >> Driven underground. >> Yeah. >> Which would be even worse actually. >> Yeah, that's a really interesting, the checks and balances. I love that call out. And I was just talking with another interview part of the series around women being represented in the 51% ratio. Software is for everybody. So that we believe that open source movement around the collective intelligence of the participants in the industry and independent of gender, this is going to be the next wave. You're starting to see these videos really have impact because there are a lot more leaders now at the table in companies developing software systems and with AI, the aperture increases for applications. And this is the new dynamic. What's your guys view on this dynamic? How does this go forward in a positive way? Is there a certain trajectory you see? For women in the industry? >> I mean, I think some of the states are trying to, again, from the government angle, some of the states are trying to force women into the boardroom, for example, California, which can be no bad thing, but I don't know, sometimes I feel a bit iffy about all this kind of forced- >> John: Yeah. >> You know, making, I don't even know how to say it properly so you can cut this part of the interview. (John laughs) >> Tara: Well, and I think that they're >> I'll say it's not organic. >> No, and I think they're already pulling it out, right. It's already been challenged so they're in the process- >> Well, this is the open source angle, Tara, you are getting at it. The change agent is open, right? So to me, the history of the proven model is openness drives transparency drives progress. >> No, it's- >> If you believe that to be true, this could have another impact. >> Yeah, it's so interesting, right. Because if you look at McKinsey Consulting or Boston Consulting or some of the other, I'm blocking on all of the names. There has been a decade or more of research that shows that a non homogeneous employee base, be it gender or ethnicity or whatever, generates more revenue, right? There's dollar signs that can be attached to this, but it's not enough for all companies to want to invest in that way. And it's not enough for all, you know, venture firms or investment firms to grant that seed money or do those seed rounds. I think it's getting better very slowly, but socialization is a much harder thing to overcome over time. Particularly, when you're not just talking about one country like the United States in our case, but around the world. You know, tech centers now exist all over the world, including places that even 10 years ago we might not have expected like Nairobi, right. Which I think is amazing, but you have to factor in the cultural implications of that as well, right. So yes, the openness is important and we have, it's important that we have those voices, but I don't think it's a panacea solution, right. It's just one more piece. I think honestly that one of the most important opportunities has been with Cloud computing and Cloud's been around for a while. So why would I say that? It's because if you think about like everybody holds up the Steve Jobs, Steve Wozniak, back in the '70s, or Sergey and Larry for Google, you know, you had to have access to enough credit card limit to go to Fry's and buy your servers and then access to somebody like Susan Wojcicki to borrow the garage or whatever. But there was still a certain amount of upfrontness that you had to be able to commit to, whereas now, and we've, I think, seen a really good evidence of this being able to lease server resources by the second and have development platforms that you can do on your phone. I mean, for a while I think Africa, that the majority of development happened on mobile devices because there wasn't a sufficient supply chain of laptops yet. And that's no longer true now as far as I know. But like the power that that enables for people who would otherwise be underrepresented in our industry instantly opens it up, right? And so to me that's I think probably the biggest opportunity that we've seen from an industry on how to make more availability in underrepresented representation for entrepreneurship. >> Yeah. >> Something like AI, I think that's actually going to take us backwards if we're not careful. >> Yeah. >> Because of we're reinforcing that socialization. >> Well, also the bias. A lot of people commenting on the biases of the large language inherently built in are also problem. Lena, I want you to weigh on this too, because I think the skills question comes up here and I've been advocating that you don't need the pedigree, college pedigree, to get into a certain jobs, you mentioned Cloud computing. I mean, it's been around for you think a long time, but not really, really think about it. The ability to level up, okay, if you're going to join something new and half the jobs in cybersecurity are created in the past year, right? So, you have this what used to be a barrier, your degree, your pedigree, your certification would take years, would be a blocker. Now that's gone. >> Lena: Yeah, it's the opposite. >> That's, in fact, psychology. >> I think so, but the people who I, by and large, who I interview for jobs, they have, I think security people and also I work with our compliance folks and I can't forget them, but let's talk about security just now. I've always found a particular kind of mindset with security folks. We're very curious, not very good at following rules a lot of the time, and we'd love to teach others. I mean, that's one of the big things stem from the start of my career. People were always interested in teaching and I was interested in learning. So it was perfect. And I think also having, you know, strong women leaders at MongoDB allows other underrepresented groups to actually apply to the company 'cause they see that we're kind of talking the talk. And that's been important. I think it's really important. You know, you've got Tara and I on here today. There's obviously other senior women at MongoDB that you can talk to as well. There's a bunch of us. There's not a whole ton of us, but there's a bunch of us. And it's good. It's definitely growing. I've been there for four years now and I've seen a growth in women in senior leadership positions. And I think having that kind of track record of getting really good quality underrepresented candidates to not just interview, but come and join us, it's seen. And it's seen in the industry and people take notice and they're like, "Oh, okay, well if that person's working, you know, if Tara Hernandez is working there, I'm going to apply for that." And that in itself I think can really, you know, reap the rewards. But it's getting started. It's like how do you get your first strong female into that position or your first strong underrepresented person into that position? It's hard. I get it. If it was easy, we would've sold already. >> It's like anything. I want to see people like me, my friends in there. Am I going to be alone? Am I going to be of a group? It's a group psychology. Why wouldn't? So getting it out there is key. Is there skills that you think that people should pay attention to? One's come up as curiosity, learning. What are some of the best practices for folks trying to get into the tech field or that's in the tech field and advancing through? What advice are you guys- >> I mean, yeah, definitely, what I say to my team is within my budget, we try and give every at least one training course a year. And there's so much free stuff out there as well. But, you know, keep learning. And even if it's not right in your wheelhouse, don't pick about it. Don't, you know, take a look at what else could be out there that could interest you and then go for it. You know, what does it take you few minutes each night to read a book on something that might change your entire career? You know, be enthusiastic about the opportunities out there. And there's so many opportunities in security. Just so many. >> Tara, what's your advice for folks out there? Tons of stuff to taste, taste test, try things. >> Absolutely. I mean, I always say, you know, my primary qualifications for people, I'm looking for them to be smart and motivated, right. Because the industry changes so quickly. What we're doing now versus what we did even last year versus five years ago, you know, is completely different though themes are certainly the same. You know, we still have to code and we still have to compile that code or package the code and ship the code so, you know, how well can we adapt to these new things instead of creating floppy disks, which was my first job. Five and a quarters, even. The big ones. >> That's old school, OG. There it is. Well done. >> And now it's, you know, containers, you know, (indistinct) image containers. And so, you know, I've gotten a lot of really great success hiring boot campers, you know, career transitioners. Because they bring a lot experience in addition to the technical skills. I think the most important thing is to experiment and figuring out what do you like, because, you know, maybe you are really into security or maybe you're really into like deep level coding and you want to go back, you know, try to go to school to get a degree where you would actually want that level of learning. Or maybe you're a front end engineer, you want to be full stacked. Like there's so many different things, data science, right. Maybe you want to go learn R right. You know, I think it's like figure out what you like because once you find that, that in turn is going to energize you 'cause you're going to feel motivated. I think the worst thing you could do is try to force yourself to learn something that you really could not care less about. That's just the worst. You're going in handicapped. >> Yeah and there's choices now versus when we were breaking into the business. It was like, okay, you software engineer. They call it software engineering, that's all it was. You were that or you were in sales. Like, you know, some sort of systems engineer or sales and now it's,- >> I had never heard of my job when I was in school, right. I didn't even know it was a possibility. But there's so many different types of technical roles, you know, absolutely. >> It's so exciting. I wish I was young again. >> One of the- >> Me too. (Lena laughs) >> I don't. I like the age I am. So one of the things that I did to kind of harness that curiosity is we've set up a security champions programs. About 120, I guess, volunteers globally. And these are people from all different backgrounds and all genders, diversity groups, underrepresented groups, we feel are now represented within this champions program. And people basically give up about an hour or two of their time each week, with their supervisors permission, and we basically teach them different things about security. And we've now had seven full-time people move from different areas within MongoDB into my team as a result of that program. So, you know, monetarily and time, yeah, saved us both. But also we're showing people that there is a path, you know, if you start off in Tara's team, for example, doing X, you join the champions program, you're like, "You know, I'd really like to get into red teaming. That would be so cool." If it fits, then we make that happen. And that has been really important for me, especially to give, you know, the women in the underrepresented groups within MongoDB just that window into something they might never have seen otherwise. >> That's a great common fit is fit matters. Also that getting access to what you fit is also access to either mentoring or sponsorship or some sort of, at least some navigation. Like what's out there and not being afraid to like, you know, just ask. >> Yeah, we just actually kicked off our big mentor program last week, so I'm the executive sponsor of that. I know Tara is part of it, which is fantastic. >> We'll put a plug in for it. Go ahead. >> Yeah, no, it's amazing. There's, gosh, I don't even know the numbers anymore, but there's a lot of people involved in this and so much so that we've had to set up mentoring groups rather than one-on-one. And I think it was 45% of the mentors are actually male, which is quite incredible for a program called Mentor Her. And then what we want to do in the future is actually create a program called Mentor Them so that it's not, you know, not just on the female and so that we can live other groups represented and, you know, kind of break down those groups a wee bit more and have some more granularity in the offering. >> Tara, talk about mentoring and sponsorship. Open source has been there for a long time. People help each other. It's community-oriented. What's your view of how to work with mentors and sponsors if someone's moving through ranks? >> You know, one of the things that was really interesting, unfortunately, in some of the earliest open source communities is there was a lot of pervasive misogyny to be perfectly honest. >> Yeah. >> And one of the important adaptations that we made as an open source community was the idea, an introduction of code of conducts. And so when I'm talking to women who are thinking about expanding their skills, I encourage them to join open source communities to have opportunity, even if they're not getting paid for it, you know, to develop their skills to work with people to get those code reviews, right. I'm like, "Whatever you join, make sure they have a code of conduct and a good leadership team. It's very important." And there are plenty, right. And then that idea has come into, you know, conferences now. So now conferences have codes of contact, if there are any good, and maybe not all of them, but most of them, right. And the ideas of expanding that idea of intentional healthy culture. >> John: Yeah. >> As a business goal and business differentiator. I mean, I won't lie, when I was recruited to come to MongoDB, the culture that I was able to discern through talking to people, in addition to seeing that there was actually women in senior leadership roles like Lena, like Kayla Nelson, that was a huge win. And so it just builds on momentum. And so now, you know, those of us who are in that are now representing. And so that kind of reinforces, but it's all ties together, right. As the open source world goes, particularly for a company like MongoDB, which has an open source product, you know, and our community builds. You know, it's a good thing to be mindful of for us, how we interact with the community and you know, because that could also become an opportunity for recruiting. >> John: Yeah. >> Right. So we, in addition to people who might become advocates on Mongo's behalf in their own company as a solution for themselves, so. >> You guys had great successful company and great leadership there. I mean, I can't tell you how many times someone's told me "MongoDB doesn't scale. It's going to be dead next year." I mean, I was going back 10 years. It's like, just keeps getting better and better. You guys do a great job. So it's so fun to see the success of developers. Really appreciate you guys coming on the program. Final question, what are you guys excited about to end the segment? We'll give you guys the last word. Lena will start with you and Tara, you can wrap us up. What are you excited about? >> I'm excited to see what this year brings. I think with ChatGPT and its copycats, I think it'll be a very interesting year when it comes to AI and always in the lookout for the authentic deep fakes that we see coming out. So just trying to make people aware that this is a real thing. It's not just pretend. And then of course, our old friend ransomware, let's see where that's going to go. >> John: Yeah. >> And let's see where we get to and just genuine hygiene and housekeeping when it comes to security. >> Excellent. Tara. >> Ah, well for us, you know, we're always constantly trying to up our game from a security perspective in the software development life cycle. But also, you know, what can we do? You know, one interesting application of AI that maybe Google doesn't like to talk about is it is really cool as an addendum to search and you know, how we might incorporate that as far as our learning environment and developer productivity, and how can we enable our developers to be more efficient, productive in their day-to-day work. So, I don't know, there's all kinds of opportunities that we're looking at for how we might improve that process here at MongoDB and then maybe be able to share it with the world. One of the things I love about working at MongoDB is we get to use our own products, right. And so being able to have this interesting document database in order to put information and then maybe apply some sort of AI to get it out again, is something that we may well be looking at, if not this year, then certainly in the coming year. >> Awesome. Lena Smart, the chief information security officer. Tara Hernandez, vice president developer of productivity from MongoDB. Thank you so much for sharing here on International Women's Day. We're going to do this quarterly every year. We're going to do it and then we're going to do quarterly updates. Thank you so much for being part of this program. >> Thank you. >> Thanks for having us. >> Okay, this is theCube's coverage of International Women's Day. I'm John Furrier, your host. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>>The Cube presents Ignite 22, brought to you by Palo Alto Networks. >>Welcome back to Vegas. Guys. We're happy that you're here. Lisa Martin here covering with Dave Valante, Palo Alto Networks Ignite 22. We're at MGM Grand. This is our first day, Dave of two days of cube coverage. We've been having great conversations with the ecosystem with Palo Alto executives, with partners. One of the things that they have is unit 42. We're gonna be talking with them next about cyber intelligence. And the threat data that they get is >>Incredible. Yeah. They have all the data, they know what's going on, and of course things are changing. The state of play changes. Hold on a second. I got a text here. Oh, my Netflix account was frozen. Should I click on this link? Yeah. What do you think? Have you had a, it's, have you had a little bit more of that this holiday season? Yeah, definitely. >>Unbelievable, right? A lot of smishing going on. >>Yeah, they're very clever. >>Yeah, we're very pleased to welcome back one of our alumni to the queue. Wendy Whitmore is here, the SVP of Unit 42. Welcome back, Wendy. Great to have >>You. Thanks Lisa. So >>Unit 42 created back in 2014. One of the things that I saw that you said in your keynote this morning or today was everything old is still around and it's co, it's way more prolific than ever. What are some of the things that Unit 42 is seeing these days with, with respect to cyber threats as the landscape has changed so much the last two years alone? >>You know, it, it has. So it's really interesting. I've been responding to these breaches for over two decades now, and I can tell you that there are a lot of new and novel techniques. I love that you already highlighted Smishing, right? In the opening gate. Right. Because that is something that a year ago, no one knew what that word was. I mean, we, it's probably gonna be invented this year, right? But that said, so many of the tactics that we have previously seen, when it comes to just general espionage techniques, right? Data act filtration, intellectual property theft, those are going on now more than ever. And you're not hearing about them as much in the news because there are so many other things, right? We're under the landscape of a major war going on between Russia and Ukraine of ransomware attacks, you know, occurring on a weekly basis. And so we keep hearing about those, but ultimately these nations aid actors are using that top cover, if you will, as a great distraction. It's almost like a perfect storm for them to continue conducting so much cyber espionage work that like we may not be feeling that today, but years down the road, they're, the work that they're doing today is gonna have really significant impact. >>Ransomware has become a household word in the last couple of years. I think even my mom knows what it is, to some degree. Yeah. But the threat actors are far more sophisticated than they've ever written. They're very motivated. They're very well funded. I think I've read a stat recently in the last year that there's a ransomware attack once every 11 seconds. And of course we only hear about the big ones. But that is a concern that goes all the way up to the board. >>Yeah. You know, we have a stat in our ransomware threat report that talks about how often victims are posted on leak sites. And I think it's once every seven minutes at this point that a new victim is posted. Meaning a victim has had their data, a victim organization had their data stolen and posted on some leak site in the attempt to be extorted. So that has become so common. One of the shifts that we've seen this year in particular and in recent months, you know, a year ago when I was at Ignite, which was virtual, we talked about quadruple extortion, meaning four different ways that these ransomware actors would go out and try to make money from these attacks in what they're doing now is often going to just one, which is, I don't even wanna bother with encrypting your data now, because that means that in order to get paid, I probably have to decrypt it. Right? That's a lot of work. It's time consuming. It's kind of painstaking. And so what they've really looked to do now is do the extortion where they simply steal the data and then threaten to post it on these leak sites, you know, release it other parts of the web and, and go from there. And so that's really a blending of these techniques of traditional cyber espionage with intellectual property theft. Wow. >>How trustworthy are those guys in terms of, I mean, these are hackers, right? In terms of it's really the, the hacker honor system, isn't it? I mean, if you get compromised like that, you really beholden to criminals. And so, you >>Know, so that's one of the key reasons why having the threat intelligence is so important, right? Understanding which group that you're dealing with and what their likelihood of paying is, what's their modus operandi. It's become even more important now because these groups switch teams more frequently than NFL trades, you know, free agents during the regular season, right? Or players become free agents. And that's because their infrastructure. So the, you know, infrastructure, the servers, the systems that they're using to conduct these attacks from is actually largely being disrupted more from law enforcement, international intelligence agencies working together with public private partnerships. So what they're doing is saying, okay, great. All that infrastructure that I just had now is, is burned, right? It's no longer effective. So then they'll disband a team and then they'll recruit a new team and it's constant like mixing and matching in players. >>All that said, even though that's highly dynamic, one of the other areas that they pride themselves on is customer service. So, and I think it's interesting because, you know, when I said they're not wanting to like do all the decryption? Yeah. Cuz that's like painful techni technical slow work. But on the customer service side, they will create these customer service portals immediately stand one up, say, you know, hey it's, it's like an Amazon, you know, if you've ever had to return a package on Amazon for example, and you need to click through and like explain, you know, Hey, I didn't receive this package. A portal window pops up, you start talking to either a bot or a live agent on the backend. In this case they're hu what appeared to be very much humans who are explaining to you exactly what happened, what they're asking for, super pleasant, getting back within minutes of a response. And they know that in order for them to get paid, they need to have good customer service because otherwise they're not going to, you know, have a business. How, >>So what's the state of play look like from between nation states, criminals and how, how difficult or not so difficult is it for you to identify? Do you have clear signatures? My understanding in with Solar Winds it was a little harder, but maybe help us understand and help our audience understand what the state of play is right now. >>One of the interesting things that I think is occurring, and I highlighted this this morning, is this idea of convergence. And so I'll break it down for one example relates to the type of malware or tools that these attackers use. So traditionally, if we looked at a nation state actor like China or Russia, they were very, very specific and very strategic about the types of victims that they were going to go after when they had zero day. So, you know, new, new malware out there, new vulnerabilities that could be exploited only by them because the rest of the world didn't know about it. They might have one organization that they would target that at, at most, a handful and all very strategic for their objective. They wanted to keep that a secret as long as possible. Now what we're seeing actually is those same attackers going towards one, a much larger supply chain. >>So, so lorenzen is a great example of that. The Hafnia attacks towards Microsoft Exchange server last year. All great examples of that. But what they're also doing is instead of using zero days as much, or you know, because those are expensive to build, they take a lot of time, a lot of funding, a lot of patience and research. What they're doing is using commercially available tools. And so there's a tool that our team identified earlier this year called Brute Rael, C4 or BRC four for short. And that's a tool that we now know that nation state actors are using. But just two weeks ago we invested a ransomware attack where the ransomware actor was using that same piece of tooling. So to your point, yak can get difficult for defenders when you're looking through and saying, well wait, they're all using some of the same tools right now and some of the same approaches when it comes to nation states, that's great for them because they can blend into the noise and it makes it harder to identify as >>Quickly. And, and is that an example of living off the land or is that B BRC four sort of a homegrown hacker tool? Is it, is it a, is it a commercial >>Off the shelf? So it's a tool that was actually, so you can purchase it, I believe it's about 2,500 US dollars for a license. It was actually created by a former Red teamer from a couple well-known companies in the industry who then decided, well hey, I built this tool for work, I'm gonna sell this. Well great for Red teamers that are, you know, legitimately doing good work, but not great now because they're, they built a, a strong tool that has the ability to hide amongst a, a lot of protocols. It can actually hide within Slack and teams to where you can't even see the data is being exfiltrated. And so there's a lot of concern. And then now the reality that it gets into the wrong hands of nation state actors in ransomware actors, one of the really interesting things about that piece of malware is it has a setting where you can change wallpaper. And I don't know if you know offhand, you know what that means, but you know, if that comes to mind, what you would do with it. Well certainly a nation state actor is never gonna do something like that, right? But who likes to do that are ransomware actors who can go in and change the background wallpaper on a desktop that says you've been hacked by XYZ organization and let you know what's going on. So pretty interesting, obviously the developer doing some work there for different parts of the, you know, nefarious community. >>Tremendous amount of sophistication that's gone on the last couple of years alone. I was just reading that Unit 42 is now a founding member of the Cyber Threat Alliance includes now more than 35 organizations. So you guys are getting a very broad picture of today's threat landscape. How can customers actually achieve cyber resilience? Is it achievable and how do you help? >>So I, I think it is achievable. So let me kind of parse out the question, right. So the Cyber Threat Alliance, the J C D C, the Cyber Safety Review Board, which I'm a member of, right? I think one of the really cool things about Palo Alto Networks is just our partnerships. So those are just a handful. We've got partnerships with over 200 organizations. We work closely with the Ukrainian cert, for example, sharing information, incredible information about like what's going on in the war, sharing technical details. We do that with Interpol on a daily basis where, you know, we're sharing information. Just last week the Africa cyber surge operation was announced where millions of nodes were taken down that were part of these larger, you know, system of C2 channels that attackers are using to conduct exploits and attacks throughout the world. So super exciting in that regard and it's something that we're really passionate about at Palo Alto Networks in terms of resilience, a few things, you know, one is visibility, so really having a, an understanding of in a real, as much of real time as possible, right? What's happening. And then it goes into how you, how can we decrease operational impact. So that's everything from network segmentation to wanna add the terms and phrases I like to use a lot is the win is really increasing the time it takes for the attackers to get their work done and decreasing the amount of time it takes for the defenders to get their work done, right? >>Yeah. I I call it increasing the denominator, right? And the ROI equation benefit over or value, right? Equals equals or benefit equals value over cost if you can increase the cost to go go elsewhere, right? Absolutely. And that's the, that's the game. Yeah. You mentioned Ukraine before, what have we learned from Ukraine? I, I remember I was talking to Robert Gates years ago, 2016 I think, and I was asking him, yeah, but don't we have the best cyber technology? Can't we attack? He said, we got the most to lose too. Yeah. And so what have we learned from, from Ukraine? >>Well, I, I think that's part of the key point there, right? Is you know, a great offense essentially can also be for us, you know, deterrent. So in that aspect we have as an, as a company and or excuse me, as a country, as a company as well, but then as partners throughout all parts of the world have really focused on increasing the intelligence sharing and specifically, you know, I mentioned Ukrainian cert. There are so many different agencies and other sorts throughout the world that are doing everything they can to share information to help protect human life there. And so what we've really been concerned with, with is, you know, what cyber warfare elements are going to be used there, not only how does that impact Ukraine, but how does it potentially spread out to other parts of the world critical infrastructure. So you've seen that, you know, I mentioned CS rrb, but cisa, right? >>CISA has done a tremendous job of continuously getting out information and doing everything they can to make sure that we are collaborating at a commercial level. You know, we are sharing information and intelligence more than ever before. So partners like Mania and CrowdStrike, our Intel teams are working together on a daily basis to make sure that we're able to protect not only our clients, but certainly if we've got any information relevant that we can share that as well. And I think if there's any silver lining to an otherwise very awful situation, I think the fact that is has accelerated intelligence sharing is really positive. >>I was gonna ask you about this cause I think, you know, 10 or so years ago, there was a lot of talk about that, but the industry, you know, kind of kept things to themselves, you know, a a actually tried to monetize some of that private data. So that's changing is what I'm hearing from you >>More so than ever more, you know, I've, I mentioned I've been in the field for 20 years. You know, it, it's tough when you have a commercial business that relies on, you know, information to, in order to pay people's salaries, right? I think that has changed quite a lot. We see the benefit of just that continuous sharing. There are, you know, so many more walls broken down between these commercial competitors, but also the work on the public private partnership side has really increased some of those relationships. Made it easier. And you know, I have to give a whole lot of credit and mention sisa, like the fact that during log four J, like they had GitHub repositories, they were using Slack, they were using Twitter. So the government has really started pushing forward with a lot of the newer leadership that's in place to say, Hey, we're gonna use tools and technology that works to share and disseminate information as quickly as we can. Right? That's fantastic. That's helping everybody. >>We knew that every industry, no, nobody's spared of this. But did you notice in the last couple of years, any industries in particular that are more vulnerable? Like I think of healthcare with personal health information or financial services, any industries kind of jump out as being more susceptible than others? >>So I think those two are always gonna be at the forefront, right? Financial services and healthcare. But what's been really top of mind is critical infrastructure, just making sure right? That our water, our power, our fuel, so many other parts of right, the ecosystem that go into making sure that, you know, we're keeping, you know, houses heated during the winter, for example, that people have fresh water. Those are extremely critical. And so that is really a massive area of focus for the industry right now. >>Can I come back to public-private partnerships? My question is relates to regulations because the public policy tends to be behind tech, the technology industry as an understatement. So when you take something like GDPR is the obvious example, but there are many, many others, data sovereignty, you can't move the data. Are are, are, is there tension between your desire as our desire as an industry to share data and government's desire to keep data private and restrict that data sharing? How is that playing out? How do you resolve that? >>Well I think there have been great strides right in each of those areas. So in terms of regulation when it comes to breaches there, you know, has been a tendency in the past to do victim shaming, right? And for organizations to not want to come forward because they're concerned about the monetary funds, right? I think there's been tremendous acceleration. You're seeing that everywhere from the fbi, from cisa, to really working very closely with organizations to, to have a true impact. So one example would be a ransomware attack that occurred. This was for a client of ours within the United States and we had a very close relationship with the FBI at that local field office and made a phone call. This was 7:00 AM Eastern time. And this was an organization that had this breach gone public, would've made worldwide news. There would've been a very big impact because it would've taken a lot of their systems offline. >>Within the 30 minutes that local FBI office was on site said, we just saw this piece of malware last week, we have a decryptor for it from another organization who shared it with us. Here you go. And within 60 minutes, every system was back up and running. Our teams were able to respond and get that disseminated quickly. So efforts like that, I think the government has made a tremendous amount of headway into improving relationships. Is there always gonna be some tension between, you know, competing, you know, organizations? Sure. But I think that we're doing a whole lot to progress it, >>But governments will make exceptions in that case. Especially for something as critical as the example that you just gave and be able to, you know, do a reach around, if you will, on, on onerous regulations that, that ne aren't helpful in that situation, but certainly do a lot of good in terms of protecting privacy. >>Well, and I think there used to be exceptions made typically only for national security elements, right? And now you're seeing that expanding much more so, which I think is also positive. Right. >>Last question for you as we are wrapping up time here. What can organizations really do to stay ahead of the curve when it comes to, to threat actors? We've got internal external threats. What can they really do to just be ahead of that curve? Is that possible? >>Well, it is now, it's not an easy task so I'm not gonna, you know, trivialize it. But I think that one, having relationships with right organizations in advance always a good thing. That's a, everything from certainly a commercial relationships, but also your peers, right? There's all kinds of fantastic industry spec specific information sharing organizations. I think the biggest thing that impacts is having education across your executive team and testing regularly, right? Having a plan in place, testing it. And it's not just the security pieces of it, right? As security responders, we live these attacks every day, but it's making sure that your general counsel and your head of operations and your CEO knows what to do. Your board of directors, do they know what to do when they receive a phone call from Bloomberg, for example? Are they supposed supposed to answer? Do your employees know that those kind of communications in advance and training can be really critical and make or break a difference in an attack. >>That's a great point about the testing but also the communication that it really needs to be company wide. Everyone at every level needs to know how to react. Wendy, it's been so great having, >>Wait one last question. Sure. Do you have a favorite superhero growing up? >>Ooh, it's gotta be Wonder Woman. Yeah, >>Yeah, okay. Yeah, so cuz I'm always curious, there's not a lot of women in, in security in cyber. How'd you get into it? And many cyber pros like wanna save the world? >>Yeah, no, that's a great question. So I joined the Air Force, you know, I, I was a special agent doing computer crime investigations and that was a great job. And I learned about that from, we had an alumni day and all these alumni came in from the university and they were in flight suits and combat gear. And there was one woman who had long blonde flowing hair and a black suit and high heels and she was carrying a gun. What did she do? Because that's what I wanted do. >>Awesome. Love it. We >>Blonde >>Wonder Woman. >>Exactly. Wonder Woman. Wendy, it's been so great having you on the program. We, we will definitely be following unit 42 and all the great stuff that you guys are doing. Keep up the good >>Work. Thanks so much Lisa. Thank >>You. Day our pleasure. For our guest and Dave Valante, I'm Lisa Martin, live in Las Vegas at MGM Grand for Palo Alto Ignite, 22. You're watching the Cube, the leader in live enterprise and emerging tech coverage.

>> Hello friends and welcome back to Fabulous Las Vegas, Nevada. We are here at AWS re:Invent in the heat of day three. Very exciting time. My name is Savannah Peterson, joined with John Furrier here on theCUBE. John, what's your, what's your big hot take from the day? Just from today. >> So right now the velocity of content is continuing to flow on theCUBE. Thank you, everyone, for watching. The security conversations. Also, the cost tuning of the cloud kind of vibe is going on. You're hearing that with the looming recession, but if you look at the show it's the bulk of the keynote time spent talking is on data and security together. So Security, Security Lake, Amazon, they continue to talk about security. This next segment's going to be awesome. We have a multi-, eight-time CUBE alumni coming back and great conversation about security. I'm looking forward to this. >> Alumni VIP, I know, it's so great. Actually, both of these guests have been on theCUBE before so please welcome Dan and Haiyan. Thank you both for being here from F5. How's the show going? You're both smiling and we're midway through day three. Good? >> It's so exciting to be here with you all and it's a great show. >> Awesome. Dan, you having a good time too? >> It's wearing me out. I'm having a great time. (laughter) >> It's okay to be honest. It's okay to be honest. It's wearing out our vocal cords for sure up here, but it is definitely a great time. Haiyan, can you tell me a little bit about F5 just in case the audience isn't familiar? >> Sure, so F5 we specialize in application delivery and security. So our mission is to deliver secure and optimize any applications, any APIs, anywhere. >> I can imagine you have a few customers in the house. >> Absolutely. >> Yeah, that's awesome. So in terms of a problem that, well an annoyance that we've all had, bots. We all want the anti-bots. You have a unique solution to this. How are you helping AWS customers with bots? Let's send it to you. >> Well we, we collect client side signals from all devices. We might study how it does floating point math or how it renders emojis. We analyze those signals and we can make a real time determination if the traffic is from a bot or not. And if it's from a bot, we could take mitigating action. And if it's not, we just forward it on to origin. So client side signals are really important. And then the second aspect of bot protection I think is understanding that bot's retool. They become more sophisticated. >> Savannah: They learn. >> They learn. >> They unfortunately learn as well. >> Exactly, yeah. So you have to have a second stage what we call retrospective analysis where you're looking over all the historical transactions, looking for anything that may have been missed by a realtime defense and then updating that stage one that real time defense to deal with the newly discovered threat. >> Let's take a step back for a second. I want to just set the table in the context for the bot conversation. Bots, automation, that's, people know like spam bots but Amazon has seen the bot networks develop. Can you scope the magnitude and the size of the problem of bots? What is the problem? And give a size of what this magnitude of this is. >> Sure, one thing that's important to realize is not all bots are bad. Okay? Some bots are good and you want to identify the automation from those bots and allow listed so you don't interfere with what they're doing. >> I can imagine that's actually tricky. >> It is, it is. Absolutely. Yeah. >> Savannah: Nuanced. >> Yeah, but the bad bots, these are the ones that are attempting credential stuffing attacks, right? They're trying username password pairs against login forms. And because of consumer habits to reuse usernames and passwords, they end up taking over a lot of accounts. But those are the bookends. There are all sorts of types of bots in between those two bookends. Some are just nuisance, like limited time offer bots. You saw some of this in the news recently with Ticketmaster. >> That's a spicy story. >> Yeah, it really is. And it's the bots that is causing that problem. They use automation to buy all these concert tickets or sneakers or you know, any limited time offer project. And then they resell those on the secondary market. And we've done analysis on some of these groups and they're making millions of dollars. It isn't something they're making like 1200 bucks on. >> I know Amazon doesn't like to talk about this but the cloud for its double edged sword that it is for all the greatness of the agility spinning up resources bots have been taking advantage of that same capability to hide, change, morph. You've seen the matrix when the bots attacked the ship. They come out of nowhere. But Amazon actually has seen the bot problem for a long time, has been working on it. Talk about that kind of evolution of how this problem's being solved. What's Amazon doing about, how do you guys help out? >> Yeah, well we have this CloudFront connector that allows all Amazon CloudFront customers to be able to leverage this technology very, very quickly. So what historically was available only to like, you know the Fortune 500 at most of the global 2000 is now available to all AWS customers who are using CloudFront just by really you can explain how do they turn it on in CloudFront? >> Yeah. So I mean CloudFront technologies like that is so essential to delivering the digital experience. So what we do is we do a integration natively. And so if your CloudFront customers and you can just use our bot defense solution by turning on, you know, that traffic. So go through our API inspection, go through our bot inspection and you can benefit from all the other efficiencies that we acquired through serving the highest and the top institutions in the world. >> So just to get this clarification, this is a super important point. You said it's native to the service. I don't have to bolt it on? Is it part of the customer experience? >> Yeah, we basically built the integration. So if you're already a CloudFront customer and you have the ability to turn on our bot solutions without having to do the integration yourself. >> Flick a switch and it's on. >> Haiyan: Totally. >> Pretty much. >> Haiyan: Yeah. >> That's how I want to get rid of all the spam in my life. We've talked a lot about the easy button. I would also like the anti-spam button if we're >> Haiyan: 100% >> Well we were talking before you came on camera that there's a potentially a solution you can sit charge. There are techniques. >> Yeah. Yeah. We were talking about the spam emails and I thought they just charge, you know 10th of a penny for every sent email. It wouldn't affect me very much. >> What's the, are people on that? You guys are on this but I mean this is never going to stop. We're going to see the underbelly of the web, the dark web continue to do it. People are harvesting past with the dark web using bots that go in test challenge credentials. I mean, it's just happening. It's never going to stop. What's, is it going to be that cat and mouse game? Are we going to see solutions? What's the, when are we going to get some >> Well it's certainly not a cat and mouse game for F5 customers because we win that battle every time. But for enterprises who are still battling the bots as a DIY project, then yes, it's just going to be a cat and mouse. They're continuing to block by IP, you know, by rate limiting. >> Right, which is so early 2000's. >> Exactly. >> If we're being honest. >> Exactly. And the attackers, by the way, the attackers are now coming from hundreds of thousands or even millions of IP addresses and some IPs are using one time. >> Yeah, I mean it seems like such an easy problem to circumnavigate. And still be able to get in. >> What are I, I, let's stick here for a second. What are some of the other trends that you're seeing in how people are defending if they're not using you or just in general? >> Yeah, maybe I'll add to to that. You know, when we think about the bot problem we also sort of zoom out and say, Hey, bot is only one part of the problem when you think about the entire digital experience the customer experiencing, right? So at F5 we actually took a more holistic sort of way to say, well it's about protecting the apps and applications and the APIs that's powering all of those. And we're thinking not only the applications APIs we're thinking the infrastructure that those API workloads are running. So one of the things we're sharing since we acquired Threat Stack, we have been busy doing integrations with our distributed cloud services and we're excited. In a couple weeks you will hear announcement of the integrated solution for our application infrastructure protection. So that's just another thing. >> On that Threat Stack, does that help with that data story too? Because it's a compliance aspect as well. >> Yeah, it helps with the telemetries, collecting more telemetries, the data story but is also think about applications and APIs. You can only be as secure as the infrastructure you're running on it, right? So the infrastructure protection is a key part of application security. And the other dimension is not only we can help with the credentials, staffing and, and things but it's actually thinking about the customer's top line. Because at the end of the day when all this inventory are being siphoned out the customer won't be happy. So how do we make sure their loyal customers have the right experience so that can improve their top line and not just sort of preventing the bots. So there's a lot of mission that we're on. >> Yeah, that surprise and delight in addition to that protection. >> 100% >> If I could talk about the evolution of an engagement with F5. We first go online, deploy the client side signals I described and take care of all the bad bots. Okay. Mitigate them. Allow list all the good bots, now you're just left with human traffic. We have other client side signals that'll identify the bad humans among the good humans and you could deal with them. And then we have additional client side signals that allow us to do silent continuous authentication of your good customers extending their sessions so they don't have to endure the friction of logging in over and over and over. >> Explain that last one again because I think that was, that's, I didn't catch that. >> Yeah. So right now we require a customer to enter in their username and password before we believe it's them. But we had a customer who a lot of their customers were struggling to log in. So we did analysis and we realized that our client side signals, you know of all those that are struggling to log in, we're confident like 40% of 'em are known good customers based on some of these signals. Like they're doing floating point math the way they always have. They're rendering emojis the way they always have all these clients that signals are the same. So why force that customer to log in again? >> Oh yeah. And that's such a frustrating user experience. >> So true. >> I actually had that thought earlier today. How many time, how much of my life am I going to spend typing my email address? Just that in itself. Then I could crawl back under the covers but >> With the biometric Mac, I forget my passwords. >> Or how about solving CAPTCHA's? How fun is that? >> How many pictures have a bus? >> I got one wrong the other day because I had to pick all the street signs. I got it wrong and I called a Russian human click farm and figured out why was I getting it wrong? And they said >> I love that you went down this rabbit hole deeply. >> You know why that's not a street sign. That's a road sign, they told me. >> That's the secret backdoor. >> Oh well yeah. >> Talk about your background because you have fascinating background coming from law enforcement and you're in this kind of role. >> He could probably tell us about our background. >> They expunge those records. I'm only kidding. >> 25, 30 years in working in local, state and federal law enforcement and intelligence among those an FBI agent and a CIA cyber operations officer. And most people are drawn to that because it's interesting >> Three letter agencies can get an eyebrow raise. >> But I'll be honest, my early, early in my career I was a beat cop and that changed my life. That really did, that taught me the importance of an education, taught me the criminal mindset. So yeah, people are drawn to the FBI and CIA background, but I really value the >> So you had a good observation eye for kind of what, how this all builds out. >> It all kind of adds up, you know, constantly fighting the bad guys, whether they're humans, bots, a security threat from a foreign nation. >> Well learning their mindset and learning what motivates them, what their objectives are. It is really important. >> Reading the signals >> You don't mind slipping into the mind of a criminal. It's a union rule. >> Right? It actually is. >> You got to put your foot and your hands in and walk through their shoes as they say. >> That's right. >> The bot networks though, I want to get into, is not it sounds like it's off the cup but they're highly organized networks. >> Dan: They are. >> Talk about the aspect of the franchises or these bots behind them, how they're financed, how they use the money that they make or ransomware, how they collect, what's the enterprise look like? >> Unfortunately, a lot of the nodes on a botnet are now just innocent victim computers using their home computers. They can subscribe to a service and agree to let their their CPU be used while they're not using it in exchange for a free VPN service, say. So now bad actors not, aren't just coming from you know, you know, rogue cloud providers who accept Bitcoin as payment, they're actually coming from residential IPs, which is making it even more difficult for the security teams to identify. It's one thing when it's coming from- >> It's spooky. I'm just sitting here kind of creeped out too. It's these unknown hosts, right? It's like being a carrier. >> You have good traffic coming from it during the day. >> Right, it appears normal. >> And then malicious traffic coming from it. >> Nefarious. >> My last question is your relationship with Amazon. I'll see security center piece of this re:Invent. It's always been day zero as they say but really it's the security data lake. A lot of gaps are being filled in the products. You kind of see that kind of filling out. Talk about the relationship with F5 and AWS. How you guys are working together, what's the status? >> We've been long-term partners and the latest release the connector for CloudFront is just one of the joint work that we did together and try to, I think, to Dan's point, how do we make those technology that was built for the very sophisticated big institutions to be available for all the CloudFront customers? So that's really what's exciting. And we also leverage a lot of the technology. You talked about the data and our entire solution are very data driven, as you know, is automation. If you don't use data, you don't use analytics, you don't use AI, it's hard to really sort of win that war. So a lot of our stuff, it's very data driven >> And the benefit to customers is what? Access? >> The customer's access, the customer's top line. We talked about, you know, like how we're really bringing better experiences at the end of the day. F5's mission is try to bring a better digital world to life. >> And it's also collaborative. We've had a lot of different stories here on on the set about companies collaborating. You're obviously collaborating and I also love that we're increasing access, not just narrowing this focus for the larger companies at scale already, but making sure that these companies starting out, a lot of the founders probably milling around on the floor right now can prevent this and ensure that user experience for their customers. throughout the course of their product development. I think it's awesome. So we have a new tradition here on theCUBE at re:Invent, and since you're alumni, I feel like you're maybe going to be a little bit better at this than some of the rookies. Not that rookies can't be great, but you're veterans. So I feel strong about this. We are looking for your 30-second Instagram reel hot take. Think of it like your sizzle of thought leadership from the show this year. So eventually eight more visits from now we can compile them into a great little highlight reel of all of your sound bites over the evolution of time. Who wants to give us their hot take first? >> Dan? >> Yeah, sure. >> Savannah: You've been elected, I mean you are an agent. A former special agent >> I guess I want everybody to know the bot problem is much worse than they think it is. We go in line and we see 98, 99% of all login traffic is from malicious bots. And so it is not a DIY project. >> 98 to 99%? That means only 1% of traffic is actually legitimate? >> That's right. >> Holy moly. >> I just want to make sure that everybody heard you say that. >> That's right. And it's very common. Didn't happen once or twice. It's happened a lot of times. And when it's not 99 it's 60 or it's 58, it's high. >> And that's costing a lot too. >> Yes, it is. And it's not just in fraud, but think about charges that >> Savannah: I think of cloud service providers >> Cost associated with transactions, you know, fraud tools >> Savannah: All of it. >> Yes. Sims, all those things. There's a lot of costs associated with that much automation. So the client side signals and multi-stage defense is what you need to deal with it. It's not a DIY project. >> Bots are not DIY. How would you like to add to that? >> It's so hard to add to that but I would say cybersecurity is a team sport and is a very data driven solution and we really need to sort of team up together and share intelligence, share, you know, all the things we know so we can be better at this. It's not a DIY project. We need to work together. >> Fantastic, Dan, Haiyan, so great to have you both back on theCUBE. We look forward to seeing you again for our next segment and I hope that the two of you have really beautiful rest of your show. Thank you all for tuning into a fantastic afternoon of coverage here from AWS re:Invent. We are live from Las Vegas, Nevada and don't worry we have more programming coming up for you later today with John Furrier. I'm Savannah Peterson. This is theCUBE, the leader in high tech coverage.

>>Okay, welcome back everyone to the cubes coverage here in San Francisco, California of AWS summit, 2022. I'm John Farry host of the cube AWS summit in New York city. Coming up in the summer. We'll be there as well for live interviews there. Events are back and we're excited. I have a great guest here y'all you of CEO and co-founder and Juna security based outta Palo Alto. Great to have you coming on the queue. Appreciate it. Yeah. >>Thanks. >>Thanks for having, so tell us about what you guys are doing. You guys have a really cool cost of confidential computing. Take a minute to explain what the company does. >>Sure. So, uh, at high level confidential computing is the ability to take any workload, any piece of data, regardless of sensitive, it is and run it completely isolated, completely private, completely protected, essentially on any infrastructure, uh, and that enables organizations to take any, any workload and move it to UN you know, um, sensitive, potential sensitive locations, like the public cloud, where somebody else is managing your infrastructure. >>So basically the problem you solve is you provide security layer for workloads. >>Exactly. >>Exactly's also govern in security issues, but also just general hacking, >>Right? Oh, ex exactly. Essentially any, any organization having any type of sensitive information, think about, you know, financial services, think about healthcare, think about, you know, oil and gas that need to protect the data where they're gonna drill next. Any, any kind of organization that has sensitive information has that issue and needs to protect data in any environment they run in. >>So Amazon would be like, wait a minute. We're secure. What come on. >>Uh, actually AWS is, uh, is one of our partners and we we're actually building on top of, uh, a new technology that AWS, uh, built called, uh, nitro enclaves. And actually all the public clouds have built a technology like this. Uh, the reason why they've done this is to security and privacy are the number one. And number two reasons why people don't move more workloads to the public cloud. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So what the public clouds have done is added this technology to be able to tell their customers one is we don't have any access to your data running on top of our infrastructure. And number two, be able to turn to the government and tell them, uh, during the case with the iPhone and, uh, the FBI or the FBI to apple asked him for data on the iPhone. Yeah. And apple said, we just can't, we don't have access to that data. This is exactly what the public clouds want to be able to do, turn to the government and tell them we just don't have access to our customer's data. >>Wow. That's gonna put a lot of pressure. So talk about the surface area of attacks. How has that changed? What do you guys, what's your role in that obviously this no perimeter anymore in the cloud, the security is dead. That's a huge issue. >>Yeah, of course. So, so I guess what we fit into this, as I mentioned, all the clouds added, uh, this technology, uh, what we fit in is very similar to what VMware did for virtualization, right? Virtualization was this extremely powerful technology that everybody knew was going to change the world. You wouldn't have the public cloud without virtualization. Uh, the problem was, it was very difficult to use very, very low level because it was a hardware technology. And then every, uh, vendor built a different technology. This is exactly the case now with confidential computing, every cloud added, uh, uh, a hardware level technology to go support this. But one it's very low level. It's very, very difficult to use. And every cloud added the different technology, which makes it even harder for organizations to go use. We added a softer stack exactly like VE VMware did for virtualization to make it super simple, to use and ubiquitous across the different clouds. >>How did you come up with the idea? What did this all come from? Were you scratching and inch and security? Did you have one of those things like, Hey, I can solve this problem. What's the origination story? Where did this all start? >>Yeah, it's actually, so I I've been in security for, you know, over 20 years now. Um, and I kept running into that same problem. Right. I, I was in the, I was actually in, um, unit 8,200, which is the really equivalent of the NSA. Uh, I was then, uh, in the private sector and I was, uh, a bunch of companies open DNS, Cisco, and, and I kept running into that same issue. And when you kind of peeled the layers of the onion of what the core security problem was, it always came back to how do you protect data while it's being used, which is essentially the core, the same sort of core problem, the confidential computing solves. Um, but there was never a solution. There was never a way to solve this. Uh, and, uh, above four years ago, my co-founder, uh, just finished his PhD at Stanford and he ran into, there's finally a way to do this. Finally, the CPU vendors have built something in, uh, the clouds are going to adopt this. This is going to allow you to one finally solve that huge problem that always existed. And, and number two, this allows you to kind of rearchitect security the right way, uh, because this has always been the core problem that people try to somehow mitigate never having a good solution. >>It's like putting a rapper around it, an envelope and saying secure. >>Exactly. So was this >>PhD working at Stanford in parallel to industry momentum at the same time Sarah Diply? Or was it kind of like, was he working with partners already in his program? >>Yeah, so he just, uh, this was something was happening and this is, uh, this has been going on for, well over a decade. It, it actually funny enough, it started with the, uh, with cell phones. I dunno if you ever thought, you know, what happens if you lose your phone, you have the biometric data, right? Your fingerprint or your face ID. Can somebody get that information out the phone if you lose it? And what the, the phone vendors have done is basically put techn, confidential computing technology to make sure that even if somebody gets physical access to your device, they're not going to be able to get access to that data. And what the, the evolution was is that the Intel AMD, the CPU vendors have realized, wait, this is a really, really great idea. Yeah, you should put it on the server side as well. >>And that started with Intel in 2015. So this has been an evolution, uh, and now essentially every, every one of the CPU vendors is now supporting this. You have Intel and R and AMD and video just announced, uh, their confidential, uh, uh, GPU solution, uh, all the clouds and I've adopted this. Uh, so my, my co-founder when he ran into this, this was as this was, uh, starting to, to happen. He got extremely excited, but he has noticed a big problem of everyone is coming up with different solutions. We're gonna need to build a layer, a software layer on top of this, uh, to, so >>You have, you have to get this to be de facto >>Exactly standard. >>Oh, how's that going? So Amazon's a partner, >>Amazon's a partner. Aw. Uh, Azure is a partner. Uh, we can run on top of essentially any, any one of the clouds out there >>They're enabling you to do that. Cuz they're they want to buy into security. >>Exactly. They want the benefit. Exactly. They want tell their customers, you can move anything to the cloud because we don't have any access to your data. This helps us, them essentially sell cloud >>A couple things around. Um, I want to ask about performance, but before I get to that, yep. It seems like this whole protective data thing has always been like a database thing. Not so much low level re resetting, if you will, it's almost a reset. It's not like just protect your data in the database. >>Oh yeah. Yes. It's different. Yes, exactly. It's funny because uh, you bring sort of the right exact right point. Really. You kind of think about where data can reside. There're essentially three locations. There's data at rest, which is essentially data in a database or file system. There's data in transit, which is data on the, you know, in the network. Yep. Uh, and then there's data use and the data and use piece is essentially when an application needs to process data, it has to decry it and load it completely in the clear, in memory in order to process it. Got it. And at that point, the data is not decade. This is why it's so hard for organizations to move data to the cloud or to run data and geographies where they're not, you know, they don't trust the government or don't trust the, the admins. >>So injecting some malware or vulnerability or attack in the workload while it's running is just another attack, vector. >>Exactly. Or just, or just stealing the data. If you, if you have access to the infrastructure, if you can run code, you can then just basically look in the memory and get all the data out of it. And, and to some extent, even the, the, the encryption keys you use for data, rest those keys, leaving the clear in memory. So even that hasn't been completely solved. Got it. Now that you have this component, you can finally solve, you know, solved our problem and protect the data regardless of where it resides. >>All right. So I gotta a performance question cause remember going, even back to the earlier encryption. Yeah. There's always overhead penalty. Yes. But cloud's a beautiful thing you can spend compute up and you're talking about now, the, the CPU vendors are kind of getting involved. >>Yes. Talk >>About the security, uh, how you mitigate that. Is it an issue? No issue. Why? Yeah, >>Actually, actually, uh, you talk about performance because I think this is a really, really great point. What's nice about this. Uh, and uh, this is why the, the, the, the sort of the benefit of the CPU vendors doing this performance has always essentially had two underlying issues. One is performance, as you mentioned. And the other one is ease of use. This is, this is sort of the, the piece we add to that. We make it super simple to use when you can take essentially any workload and run it securely on top of any, any one of these solutions and the performing thing, the, the heavy lifting is done by the hardware vendors themselves, which means there's a another, uh, chip next to the CPU that does all the heavy lifting encryption, which is very similar. I don't know if you remember the, uh, um, uh, the TLS, you know, the SL acceleration cards. Yeah. This was exactly the same thing. It was this, you know, chip outside the CPU. So it's not, uh, in the sort of the critical path that does all the heavy lifting. And this is what allowed, uh, TLS or HTB TTP HTTPS to become the default where you now protect every website. And this is sort of when security becomes transparent and there's no performance impact, like why, why would you use it for everything? >>It becomes a no brainer unless there's legacy baggage, right. >>In >>Dogma around use this approach, culture issue, or technical, right. Unwind those two, two things. So what's your a take on that? What's your react. Culture's easy. Just like, I think that's easy to fix. We want better security get on board or see you later. Exactly. Technical architecture could be an inhibitor. How do you see that is the blocker? How do you unwind that? How do you get that to >>Reset? So it's exactly the value that we bring to the table. We build a software stack to make it super simple. You don't need to, you know, you don't need to rewrite the application. You don't need to recompile, it's essentially security becoming a part of the infrastructure. You essentially have security as just a piece of the infrastructure that makes it super simple to get a no brainer. Yeah, exactly. The way, you know, TLS was it's. Yeah. We're a software vendor. >>All right. So how do I see it integrating with Amazon? It's gonna get into the chip level. They're enabling hooks for you. Exactly. That's how it works. >>So there's essentially the, uh, all the cloud vendors have enabled these technologies for Amazon it's yeah. It's essentially this hardware capability. We, we have access to it and we're a software layer on top of it to make it simple, similar to, again, what M VMware did for virtualization and what, um, some extent, this is what, uh, Microsoft has done for the CPU, what windows is right. Every time there's a new, really amazing hardware, hardware, uh, feature. You need a software sec on top of it to make it simple use. >>What's great about the cloud is, is that you kind of have that whole operating system mindset now being democratized across everything. Right. I mean, it's a systems thinking in software, right. With all the cap X of the cloud. Yes. And you're decoupled from it and you're riding on top of >>It. Exactly. >>It's an amazing opportunity as a co-founder or just if, if there was no cloud, how hard were this to be the two <laugh>, I mean, like almost impossible. Yep. So very cool. All right. Take a minute to explain what you guys are working on. How big is the company, what you guys are doing right now, you're hiring, you're looking for people funding, give a, give some, uh, give, give some, give a plug to the company. >>Sure. So, uh, we're, uh, we're a series B company, uh, lost, uh, raised 30 million from insight in the last round. Um, we're, uh, we're about 80 people right now. We're growing extremely aggressively. Um, mostly on the salsa and the cells go to market side just because of the demand that we're seeing in the market, but we're also growing on the engineering side. So again, if, uh, we're always happy to talk to >>Side about Palo Alto probably have remote teams, >>Uh, we're based in Palo Alto. So the, the, the, the sort of headquarters and most of the team is in Palo Alto, but yeah, we're very open to remote. We have now engineers in all across the us, and also outside the us as well, just because COVID made it sort of very easy to, to do >>That. Right. I mean, you got a good product, great idea, and a great opportunity. I mean, this is, you know, Dave LAN and I had at a VM world, I think it was like 2013. Now we're dating ourselves. <laugh> this is when we started covering AWS. Yep. He asked pat Gelsinger, it might have been 2015. Cause the CEO of VMware at the time. Yeah. Is security a Doover. Yep. And he's like, absolutely. And this is now happening. This is a security Mulligan, a redo over, this is what we need. Right. >>Exactly. And this is why, so, uh, we're part of a, uh, something called the confidential computing consortium, which essentially has all the large, all the, you know, the cloud vendors, the CPU vendors, VMware is a part of this as well. Basically the, this is sort of too big of a shift for these large organizations to ignore the, and uh, yeah. VMware is definitely going to have a, a part of >>This. Awesome. Well, congratulations. You guys are gonna probably be really huge or get bought out pretty quickly. <laugh> we're I think >>This, this is a huge, this is just a huge opportunity. We can become the VMware of security. So I think this is, you know, I'm hoping to stay independent. >>Yeah. Congratulations on a great venture. Love the idea. And again, every application should run this way. It's no, uh, if you can get that security built in yep. You gotta shield. Right. You wrap it up, probe it anywhere exactly made the best cloud >>Win. Exactly. Right. Exactly. >>And that's, what's gonna happen. That's >>That's >>Why I love the Silicon angle of Amazon Silicon play. Yes. As that Silicon gets better. >>Yes. >>It only helps this, these kinds of use cases. Right? >>Exactly. We, we, again, we, we leverage, we leverage these technologies and to some extent, this is, this is actually part of the, the value we talk to customers about, because this is sort of the cutting edge of technology and security. And this keeps evolving. As, as I mentioned in video, just announced their confidential GPS. We provide this layer on top of it where organizations don't have to go and kind of rebuild every application as this evolves and just use our people >>Who know me in the cube know I'm a Hawk when it comes to cybersecurity. I think the red line is people operating below the red line. And, and why should companies have to provision their own militia? Exactly. This is essentially the shield they can put up. Exactly. And not rely on the government who just know what they're doing. Exactly. >>So get exactly security should be easy. Should be, should be us everywhere. I >>Should you get a lot of banking customers, FinTech customers coming on board. Exactly. Right. Outta the gate. Yeah. Thanks for coming on the queue. Yeah. Appreciate. Thank you. Live coverage here. San Francisco, California. I'm John farrier with the cube. We'll be right back with more after this short break.

>>Good morning live from Las Vegas. It's the Q with AWS reinvent 2021. This is our fourth day of coverage. The third full day of the conference. Lisa Martin here with Dave Nicholson. Dave, we had had a tremendous number of conversations. In fact, we've two live sets over a hundred guests on the program, and I have another web. I've got two Dave's for you for the price of one. Dave trader joins us the field CSO client advisor at Presidio. We're going to be talking about ransomware and security, Dave, welcome to the program. Thank you for having me. So it's looking at your background. You've got a very cool background. You hold numerous cybersecurity certifications, including CIS SP you've received numerous endorsements from the department of Homeland security, the FBI and NSA. And in 2018, you graduated from the FBI's CSO academy in Quantico. Wow. Yeah, it sounds like he's a man with a very special set of skills. I think you're right. I think you're right. One of the things that we have seen the cybersecurity landscape has changed dramatically in the last year and a half 22 months or so. I was reading some stats ransomware and the check happens delivery once every 11 seconds. It's now a matter of when not, if talk to us about some of the things that you're seeing, the threat landscape, changing ransomware as a service what's going on. >>The last part that you mentioned was ransomware as a service is key. The access to be able to launch a tax has become so simplified that the, the, the, uh, the attacker level doesn't have to be sophisticated. Really. You can get down to the 100 level brand new hackers that are just getting into the space. They can go to a help desk and they can purchase ransomware, and they can run this ransomware that has the comes with quality assurance, by the way. And if they didn't run correctly, they've got a help desk support system. That'll help them run this in a, you know, as a criminal enterprise. Um, the access is really what is, what has made this so prevalent, and it really exacerbated the problem to the massive scale that we're seeing today. Yeah. >>And of course, we're only hearing about the big ones, you know, re you know, Conti colonial pipeline. But as I mentioned, an attack occurring every 11 seconds, I also was reading the first half of calendar, 21, that ransomware was up nearly 11 X. So the trajectory it's going the wrong way, it's going up into the right and the way that we don't want it to go, are they becoming more brazen? Is it easier? Ransomware is the surface, but also they're able to be paid in Bitcoin and that's less traceable. >>Yeah. So, um, exponential is not even fair, right? Cause it, that's not even a fair assessment because that up and right, it's just, it's been so pervasive that we just see that continued growth. Uh, you know, there's how, you know, different ways and how we're going to stop that. And what we're, what we're doing from a national perspective is all coming into play and what we're going to do about it. You know? So the, one of the things that I'm seeing, that's kind of new is the taunting aspect. So the taunting aspect is, uh, you know, they've been in your network for a little while, the dwell times extended and they're collecting intelligence, but what they're doing is, you know, they used to let you, after they would present you with the ransomware note, they would let you kind of circle the wagons. And then you would come to a decision point as an organization. >>Is, am I going to pay or am I not well? And they would give you a little bit of time to deliberate. Well, now during your deliberation time, they're actually sending texts to the CEO and the CFO and there's, and they're, they're, they're showcasing their, their, uh, technical prowess and that they've got you, they own you at that point. And they're, they're texting on your personal device. And they're saying, you should go ahead and pay us, or we're going to make this worse. The taunting aspect is even twisting the knife and it's, uh, you know, out of box isn't even from a criminal aspect, I expect that to be out of bounds, no >>Crazy. And of course, you know, some of the things that we've seen, um, uh, the, the white houses, counter ransomware initiative, a coalition of 30 countries aimed to ramp up global efforts to attack that it's like, are you seeing cyber crime with the rise and the proliferation, you think there's gonna be more regulations and organizations that are going to be having to deal with? What do you think? Some of the things that we're going to see on that legal? >>Yeah. So we have to, we have to leverage compliance, and there's a lot of really great frameworks out there today that we are leveraging. And there's, there's good methodology on how to stop this. The issue is it's the adoption and really the, the, the knowledge, the subject matter expertise, and really that consultant side, that's the message that I try and get out to, to, to our customers and our clients. And I'm trying to really get them to understand what that evolution looks like and what, what is needed in each discipline, because there's various disciplines across the board and you almost have to have them all, um, you know, in order to be able to stop ransomware and solve for that ransomware problem. And I do think the regulation is going to be key. I also think that I need some air support from not only the federal government, but our internet service providers and, and we as a free country, we need to be careful of, you know, on, on some of that, some of those fronts. But I, I, I still think that I would appreciate, you know, my ISP doing a little bit of block and tackle for me, you know, and helping me out, even though I want the freedom to do and be able to do whatever I want. I still like them to say, you know, we're gonna block known that because, you know, it would just be nice to have a little bit of support even on that side. So how does >>An ISP prevent me from panning out my password and being fooled in a, in a, in a phishing attack is the, is the question that, is, that, is that still a real issue? >>So I wouldn't put that. I wouldn't put that on the ISP. I would put that more on the end point and some personal responsibility, right. Knowing, and I do, I do stress that a little bit, but relatively early >>Morning sarcasm in my bag. >>Yeah. So I do put that on, but there, but there are tremendous partners that I work with that are able to do that and automate a lot of that for you. And I need to make it simple, but simple as hard. And that's what you know is, especially in cybersecurity, we want to make it simple for it and really be able to remove the threat to the end user and protect the user. But in order to do that, there's a ton of things on a ton of sophistication and innovation that happens in the background. And we really need to be able to showcase how that's done. And, um, I, it's, obviously I'm excited about it, but we need more people that are able to just specialize in this. We need more good guys that are able to come in and help us on this front. >>I also think we need to break down some barriers for on the competition with, you know, market share and the partners we need to, we need to kind of elevate the conversation a little bit and we all need to work together because we're all in the same boat when it comes to how we're being attacked. Um, you know, from a national perspective on a global scale. And I think that if we elevate the conversation, our collective, uh, mindset in that, that, that, that, uh, that, that mind share is going to be able to really help us innovate and, and put a stop to this. >>So then how is Presidio and AWS, how are you helping them until you get to it? Ransomware and mitigation can talk to us about that. How are you going to be helping, especially there's cyber security skills gap that's gone on like five years. >>Sure. Yeah. That skills gap is going to continue to, we're going to continue to see that grow as well. And we're efforting that on many fronts, but I'm really excited about the ransomware mitigation kit that got, uh, unveiled yesterday. Um, I got a call earlier this year from, uh, AWS and, and, uh, we basically, the question was posed to me, you know, what are we going to do about this is from an AWS perspective, what can we do? Um, you know, cause th the cyber adversaries are, uh, are, are relatively unchecked and, and, and their attitude is what are you going to do about it? So AWS posed the question, what are we going to do about it? And what we came up with was, you know, as, as an isolated organization, or as an isolated discipline as with like a managed detection and response or endpoint protection, um, that silo could not by itself accomplish and the solve to eliminate ransomware or to make a dent in eliminate ransomware. >>So what we had to do was combine disciplines, and we reached over to BCDR disaster recovery and, and, and, and our backup teams. And we said, let's put together endpoint protection, MDR, and let's, let's merge the two of these. And let's automate that. So that what happens is, is when we detect the ransomware attack, there's, there's a specific indicators of compromise that happened in the attack, the end point protection, which is CrowdStrike in our case can see that and can notify that, and then can tell the backup and recovery team, Hey, we know that this is a, this is an indicator of compromise. We know that this system is, has been owned. And then there's an inflection point where we can ask the user if they want to manually intervene, or if they want us to automate that and intervene for them. So it really keeps production going full-time and, uh, it doesn't, it takes away the cyber adversaries ability to hold our data hostage. So this is an, it was this one, and I don't use PI verbally, uh, frequently, but this is a monumental, uh, uh, evolution of what, of what we're going to see and how to prevent ransomware. >>Wow. I was reading that, that ransomware is backups, or you talked about backup, the backup backup attacks are on the rise as well. How can organizations, how can they work with Presidio in AWS? You described this as monumental kind of game-changing, how can they work with you guys to, to implement this technology so that we can start dialing down the threats? >>Yeah. So we would love to, we would love to hear from you, right? Give us a, give us a call. Um, but, uh, our teams, you know, with, with CloudEndure and AWS CloudEndure and CrowdStrike and what they've really come up with, and, and you have to have these two things ahead of time. So I sit on our critical incident response team, and, you know, I, I do work with, you know, the, the bureau as often as I can on attribution, but you have to have these ahead of time. So your, your, your, your, uh, critical response plan needs to be in place. And if you have the two things that we, that we've really put a lot of effort into over the last eight months, if you've got CrowdStrike and you've got cloud on, on the backend, we can establish all of those, um, and, and really set this up for you to eliminate that threat. And, and that's what we're excited to showcase this week, and, you know, in the coming months, and we're going to, and we've also got additional things in additional features that we plan to add to that in the, in the coming months, Dave, >>Your thoughts on the partnership between private industry and government entities. Uh, you mentioned that the level of sophistication to engage in this bad behavior doesn't necessarily have to be the, have to rise to the level of state sponsored. Um, but can we do this in the private sector, by ourselves? What are your, what are your sort of philosophical? >>I will give you my, I will give you a statistic on this and it will, it'll be self-explanatory. But, um, 80% of our critical infrastructure in the United States is privately held. So we're unique in that perspective, we aren't like some other countries where they can just mandate the requirement that the government will control critical infrastructure. It's privately held here in the United States. So you almost have to invite the federal government to come in, even though you are a critical infrastructure, they still have to be invited to come help you. And that partnership is key in order to be able to defend yourself, but also to defend the nation. Our power grids are our water sources. I mean, you'll see those are private private companies, but we need that federal help. And I try and evangelize that partnership. I mean, you know, there's always the, um, you know, when you think about working with federal agencies, like the, like the FBI, um, there's a little bit of hesitation and you're not really quite sure. >>I will tell you that those, those men and women are, um, uh, they're amazing. They're amazing to work with they're, they're really good at what they do. And, and you're certainly it's a partnership and they have a whole division set up there's the office of the private sector is designed to have these conversations and help you prepare. And then in the unfortunate instance where you might have an attack there, right. They're trying to figure out who did that to you, you know, and, and you're a victim, you're a victim of a federal crime at that point. And they, they treat you with such care and, you know, they're, uh, they do such a great job. So I think we have to engage them in order to, and we should actually be able to help them with the technology and how, and make it easier for them to do their job, but something I'm also very interested in. >>Talk to me about your interests as the last question, in terms of what's going to go on here, we are wrapping up 2021 entering 2022, which hopefully will be a much better year for on many fronts, including the decrease in ransomware. What are some of the things that you're excited about? There's so much technology, there's so much opportunity and innovation going on with AWS and its partner ecosystem. What excites you, what opportunities do you see as we head into 2020? Yeah. >>So I do see some, I do see some threats that are going to evolve. Um, ransomware is certainly going to be more of the same until we get this out in this new methodology and what we've built until that becomes widely adopted. I think we, you know, we're not going to make a dent in the numbers that we're seeing just yet, but I'm hoping that that will change when, you know, when the industries do start to adopt that. The other thing that I'm seeing is I think operational technology is going to take a hit in 2022 because the bad guys have started to figure out how, um, you know, that, that, that, that operational technology is not as, uh, it's not front and center. And it's not top of mind for a lot of CSOs. So they're, they're targeting that weakness and going after that. So I think we really need to brace for that and, and really, uh, get in front of that. Uh, so that's one of the things that I'm prepping for is really the operational IOT conversation, and then how I can help, uh, organizations and even, even home users, you know, with some of the stuff that you've got, you know, maybe in your own home that could be used again, >>Right? Cause that work from anywhere is going to persist for quite some time. Dave, thank you so much for joining Dave Nicholson and me on the program this morning, talking about what's going on in the threat landscape ransomware, but also this monumental shift and from, from a technology and a partnership perspective that Presidio and AWS are doing to help customers and every industry, private and public sector. We appreciate your insights. Thank you >>For having me. Thanks >>For being here. Very Dave and Dave I'm Lisa you're watching the cube, the global leader in live tech coverage.

>> From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE in ETR. This is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vellante. >> Despite the more than $100 billion spent each year fighting Cyber-crime. When we do an end-of-the year look back and ask "How did we do?" The answer is invariably the same, "Worse than last year." Pre pandemic, the picture was disheartening, but since March of 2020 the situation has only worsened as cyber-criminals have become increasingly sophisticated, better funded and more brazen. SecOps pros continue to fight, but unlike conventional wars, this one has no end. Now the flip side of course, is that markets continue to value cybersecurity firms at significant premiums. Because this huge market will continue to grow by double digits for the foreseeable future. Hello and welcome to this week's Wikibon theCUBE Insights powered by ETR. In this Breaking Analysis, we look at the state of cybersecurity in 2021 and beyond. We'll update you with the latest survey data from enterprise technology research and share the fundamentals that have investors piling into the security space like never before. Let's start with the customer view. Cybersecurity remains the number one priority for CIOs and CSOs. This latest ETR survey, once again asked IT buyers to rank their top priorities for the next 12 months. Now the last three polling period dating back to last March. Cybersecurity has outranked every top spending category, including cloud, data analytics, productivity software, networking, AI, and automation or RPA. Now this shouldn't surprise anybody, but it underscores the challenges that organizations face. Not only are they in the midst of a non-optional digital transformation, but they have to also fund a cyber war that has no ceasefires, no truces, and no exit path. Now there's much more going on in cybersecurity than ransomware, but certainly that has the attention of executives. And it's becoming more and more lucrative for attackers. Here's a snapshot of some of the more well-documented attacks this decade many which have occurred in very recent months. CNA Financial, they got hit earlier this year and paid a $40 million ransom. The Ireland Health Service also got hit this year and refused to pay the ransom, but it's estimated that the cost to recover and the damage to the organization exceeded half a billion dollars. The request was for a $20 million ransom. The JBS meat company hack, they paid $11 million. CWT travel paid $5 million. The disruption from the Colonial Pipeline company, was widely reported they paid more than $4 million, as the Brenntag, the chemical company. The NBA got hit. Computer makers, Quanta and Acer also. More than 2,000 random attacks were reported to the FBI in the first seven months of 2021. Up more than 60% from 2020. Now, as I've said many times, you don't have to be a genius to be a ransomware as today. Anyone can go on the dark web, tap into ransomware as a service. Attackers, they have insidious names like darkside, evil, the cobalt, crime gang, wizard spider, the Lazarus gang, and numerous others. Criminals they have negotiation services is most typically the attackers, they'll demand a specific amount of money but they're willing to compromise in an exchange of cryptocurrency for decryption keys. And as mentioned, it's not just ransomware supply chain attacks like the solar winds hack hit organizations within the U.S government and companies like Mimecast this year. Now, while these attacks often do end up in a ransom situation. The attackers sometimes find it more lucrative to live off the land and stealth fashion and ex filtrates sensitive data that can be sold or in the case of many financial institution attacks they'll steal information from say a chief investment officer that signals an upcoming trading strategy and then the attackers will front run that trade in the stock market. Now, of course phishing, remains one of the most prominent threats. Only escalated by the work from home trend as users bring their own devices and of course home networks are less secure. So it's bad, worse than ever before. But you know, if there's a problem, entrepreneurs and investors, they're going to be there to solve it. So here's a LinkedIn post from one of the top investors in the business, Mike Speiser. He was a founding investor in Snowflake. He helped get pure storage to escape velocity and many, many other successes. This hit my LinkedIn feed the other day, his company Sutter Hill Ventures is co-leading a 1.3 Series D on an $8.3 billion valuation. They're putting in over $200 million. Now Lacework is a threat detection software company that looks at security as a data problem and they monitor exposures across clouds. So very timely. So watch that company. They're going to soar. Now the right hand chart shows venture investments in cybersecurity over the past several years. You can see it exploded in 2019 to $7.6 billion. And people thought the market was peaking at that time, if you recall. But then investments rose a little bit to $7.8 billion in 2020 right in the middle of lockdown. And then the hybrid work, the cloud, the new normal thesis kicked in big time. It's in full gear this year. You can see nearly $12 billion invested in cybersecurity in the first half of 2021 alone. So the money keeps coming in as the problem gets worse and the market gets more crowded. Now we'd like to show this slide from Optiv, it's their security taxonomy. It'll make your eyes cross. It's so packed with companies in different sectors. We'll put a link in our posts, so you can stare at this. We've used this truck before. It's pretty good. It's comprehensive and it's worth spending some time to see what that landscape looks like. But now let's reduce this down a bit and bring in some of the ETR data. This is survey data from October that shows net score or spending momentum on the vertical axis and market share or pervasiveness in the dataset on the horizontal axis. That's a measure of mentioned share if you will. Now this is just isolated on the information security sector within the ETR taxonomies. No filters in terms of the number of responses. So it's every company that ETR picks up in cybersecurity from its buyer surveys. Now companies above that red line, we consider them to have a highly elevated spending momentum for their products and services. And you can see, there are a lot of companies that are in this map first of all, and several above that magic mark. So you can see the momentum of Microsoft and Palo Alto. That's most impressive because of their size, their pervasiveness in the study, Cisco and Splunk are also quite prominent. They don't have as much spending momentum, but they're pretty respectable. And you can see the companies that have been real movers in this market that we've been reporting on for a while. Okta, CrowdStrike, Zscaler, CyberArk, SailPoint, Authzero, all companies that we've extensively covered in previous breaking analysis episodes as the up and comers. And isn't it interesting that Datadog is now showing up in the vertical axis. You see that in the left-hand side up high, they're becoming more and more competitive to Splunk in this space as an alternative and lines are blurring between observability, log analytics, security, and as we previously reported even backup and recovery. But now let's simplify this picture a bit more and filter down a little bit further. This chart shows the same X, Y view. Same data construct and framework, but we required more than a hundred responses to hit the chart. So the companies, they have to have a notable market presence in the ETR survey. It's perhaps a bit less crowded, but still very packed. Isn't it? You can see firms that are less prominent in the space like Datadog fell off. The big companies we mentioned, obviously still prominent Microsoft, Palo Alto, Cisco and Splunk and then those with real momentum, they stand out a little bit. There's somewhat smaller, but they're gaining traction in the market. As we felt they would Okta and Auth zero, which Okta acquired as we reported on earlier this year, both showing strength as our CrowdStrike, Zscaler, CyberArk, which does identity and competition with Okta and SentinelOne, which went public mid this year. The company SentinelOne uses AI to do threat detection and has been doing quite well. SalePoint and Proofpoint are right on that red elevated line and then there's a big pack in the middle. Look, this is not an easy market to track. It's virtually every company plays in security. Look, AWS says some of the most advanced security in the business but they're not in the chart specifically, but you see Microsoft is. Because much of AWS security is built into services. Amazon customers heavily rely on the Amazon ecosystem which is in the Amazon marketplace for security products. And often they associate their security spend with those partners and not necessarily Amazon. And you'll see networking companies you see right there, like Juniper and the bottom there and in the ETR data set and the players like VMware in the middle of the pack. They've been really acquisitive for example, with carbon black. And the, of course, you've got a lot of legacy players like McAfee and RSA and IBM. Look, virtually every company has a security story and that will only become more common in the coming years. Now here's another look at the ETR data it's in the raw form, but it'll give you a sense of two things; One is how the data from the previous chart is plotted. And two, it gives you a time series of the data. So the data lists the top companies in the ETR data sets sorted by the October net score in the right most column. Again, that measures spending momentum. So to make the cut here, you had to have more than a hundred mentions which is shown on the left-hand side of the chart that shared N, IE that's shared accounts in the dataset. And you can track the data from last October, July of this year and the most recent October, 2021 survey. So we, drew that red line just about at the 40% net score market coincidentally, there are 10 companies that are over that figure over that bar. We sometimes call out the four star companies. We give four stars to those companies that both are in the top 10 and spending momentum and the top in prominence are shared N in the dataset. So some of these 10 would fit into that profile by that methodology, specifically, Microsoft, Okta, CrowdStrike, and Palo Alto networks. They would be the four star companies. Now a couple of other things to point out here, DDoS attacks, they're still relevant, and they're real threat. So a company like CloudFlare which is just above that red line they play in that space. Now we've also shaded the companies in the fat middle. A lot of these companies like Cisco and Splunk for example, they're major players in the security space with very strong offerings and customer affinity. We sometimes give them two stars. So this is what makes this market so interesting. It's not like the high end discourage market where literally every vendor in the Gartner magic quadrant is up in the right, okay. And there's only five or four or five, six vendors there. This market is diverse with many, many segments and sub segments, and it's such a vital space. And there's so many holes to fill with an ever changing threat landscape as we've seen in the last two years. So this is in part which makes it such a good market for investors. There's a lot of room for growth and not just from stealing market share. That's certainly an opportunity there, but things like cloud, multi-cloud, shifting end points, the edge ,and so forth make this space really ripe for investments. And to underscore this, we put together this little chart of some of the pure play security firms to see how their stock performance has done recently. So you can see that here, you know, it's a little hard to read, but it's not hard to see that Okta, CrowdStrike, Zscaler on the left have been big movers. These charts where possible all show a cross here, starting at the lockdown last year. The only exception is SentinelOne which IPO mid this year. So that's the point March, 2020 when the whole world changed and security priorities really started to shift to accommodate the work from home. But it's quite obvious that since the pandemic, these six companies have been on a tear for the fundamental reason that hybrid work has created a shift in spending priorities for CSOs. No longer are organizations just spending on hardening a perimeter, that perimeter has been blown away. The network is flattening. Work is what you do, it's no longer a place. As such threats are on the rise and cloud, endpoint security, identity access tools there become increasingly vital and the vendors who provide them are on the rise. So it's no surprise that the players that we've listed here which play quite prominently in those markets are all on fire. So now in summary, I want to stress that while the picture is sometimes discouraging. The entire world is becoming more and more tuned in to the cyber threat. And that's a good thing. Money is pouring in. Look, technology got us into this problem and technology is a defensive weapon that will help us continue this fight. But it's going to take more than technology. And I want to share something. We get dozens and dozens of in bounds this time of the year because we do an annual predictions posts. So folks and they want to help us out. So now most of the in bounds and the predictions that we get, they're just kind of observations or frankly, non predictions that can't really be measured as like where you right, or where you're wrong. So for the most part I like predictions that are binary. For example, last December we predicted their IT spending in 2021 would rebound and grow at 4% relative to 2020. Well, it did rebound but that prediction really wasn't as accurate as I'd like. It was frankly wrong. We think it's actually the market's going to actually grow. Spending's going to grow more like 7% this year. Not to worry plenty of our predictions came true, but we'll leave that for another day. Anyway, I got an email from Dean Fisk of Fisk partners. It's a PR firm representing an individual named Lyndon Brown chief of strategy officer of Pondurance. Pondurance is a security consultancy. And the email had the standard, Hey, in case you're working on a predictions post this year end, blah, blah, blah. But instead of sharing with me, a bunch of non predictions, the notes said here's some trends in cybersecurity that might be worth thinking about. And there were a few predictions sprinkled in there, but I wanted to call it a couple of the comments from Linden Brown, whom I don't know, I never met the guy, but I really thought his trends were spot on. The first was a stat I'll share that the United Nations report cyber crime is up 600% due to the pandemic. If as if I couldn't feel worse already. His first point though was that the hybrid workplace will be the new frontier for cyber. Yes, we totally agree. There are permanent shifts taking place. And we actually predicted that last year, but he further cited that many companies went from zero to full digital transformation overnight and many are still on that journey. And his point is that hybrid work is going to require a complete overhaul of how we think about security. We think this is very true. Now the other point that stood out is that governments are going to crack down on this behavior. And we've seen this where criminals have had their critical infrastructure dismantled by governments. No doubt the U.S government has the capabilities to do so. And it is very much focused on this issue. But it's tricky as Robert Gates, who was the former defense secretary, told me a few years back in theCUBE. He said, well, we have the best offense. We also have the most to lose. So we have to be very careful, but Linden's key point was you are going to see a much more forward and aggressive public policy and new laws that give crime fighters more latitude . Again, it's tricky kind of like the Patriot act was tricky but it's coming. Now, another call-out from Linden shares his assertion that natural disasters will bring increased cyber risk. And I thought this was a really astute point because natural disasters they're on the rise. And when there's chaos, there's cash opportunities for criminals. And I'll add to this that the supply chain risk is far from over. This is going to be continuing theme this coming year and beyond. And one of the things that Linden Brown said in his note to me is essentially you can't take humans out of the equation. Automation alone can't solve the problem, but some companies operate as though they can. Just as bad human behavior, can tramp good security, Good human education and behavior is going to be a key weapon in this endless war. Now the last point is we're going to see continued escalation government crackdowns are going to bring retaliation and to Gates' point. The U.S has a lot at stake. So expect insurance premiums are going to go through the roof. That's assuming you can even get cyber insurance. And so we got to hope for the best, but for sure, we have to plan for the worst because it's coming. Deploy technology aggressively but people in process will ultimately be the other ingredients that allow us to live to battle for another day. Okay. That's a wrap for today. Remember these episodes they're all available as podcasts, wherever you listen just search "breaking analysis" podcast. Check out ETR his website at ETR.plus. We also publish a full report every week on Wikibond.com and siliconangle.com. You can get in touch. Email me @david.volante@tsiliconangle.com or you can DM me @dvellante. Comment on our LinkedIn posts. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE insights powered by ETR. Have a great week. everybody stay safe, be well. And we'll see you next time. (techno music)

>>mhm mhm >>Hey guys, welcome back to Los Angeles lisa martin. Coming to you live from cuba con and cloud native Con north America 2021. Very excited to be here. This is our third day of back to back coverage on the cube and we've got a couple of guests cube alumni joining me remotely. Please welcome parse our karate senior consultant, product marketing, Dell Technologies and David Noi VP product management at Dell Technologies. Gentlemen welcome back to the program. >>Thanks johnny >>so far so let's go ahead and start with you. Let's talk about what Dell EMC is offering to developers today in terms of unstructured data. >>Absolutely, it's great to be here. So let me start with the container storage interface. This is Q khan and a couple of years ago the container storage interface was still in beta and the storage vendors, we're very enthusiastically kind of building the plug in city of the different storage portfolio to offer enterprise grade features to developers are building applications of the Cuban this platform. And today if you look at the deli in storage portfolio, big block volumes. Nash shares s three object A P I S beyond their virtual volumes. However you're consuming storage, you have the plug ins that are required to run your applications with these enterprise Great feature speech right about snap sharks data replication, all available in the Cuban this layer and just this week at coupon we announced the container storage modules which is kind of the next step of productivity for developers beat you know uh in terms of observe ability of the storage metrics using tools like Prometheus visualizing it ravana authorization capabilities so that you know too bad moments can have better resource management of the storage that is being consumed um that so there are these multiple models were released. And if you look at unstructured data, this term may be a bit new for our kind of not very family for developers but basically the storage. Well there is a distinction that is being made you know, between primary storage and unstructured storage or unstructured data solutions And by unstructured we mean file and object storage. If you look at the cube contact nickel sessions, I was very glad to see that there is an entire stream for um machine learning and data so that speaks to how popular communities deployment models are getting when it comes to machine learning and artificial intelligence. Um even applications like genomics and media and entertainment and with the container storage interface uh and the container storage modules with the object storage portfolio that bill has, we offer the comprehensive unstructured data solutions for developers beat object or file. And the advantage the developers are getting is these you know, if you look at platforms like power scale and these areas, these are like the industry workhorses with the highest performance. And if you think of scale, you know, think of 250 nasnotes, you know with a single name space with NVIDIA gpu direct capabilities. All these capabilities developers can use um for you know, applications like machine learning or any competition intensive for data intensive applications that requires these nass uh scale of mass platforms. So so um that's that's what is new in terms of uh what we are offering, you have the storage heaters >>got a parcel. Thank you. David, let's bring you into the conversation now you've launched objects scale at VM World. Talk to us about that, what some of the key features and capabilities are and some of those big business benefits that customers are going to be able to achieve. >>Sure thing. So I really want to focus on three of the biggest benefits. This would be the fact that the product is actually based on kubernetes country, the scale of the product and then its ability to do global replication. So let me just touch on those in order. Mhm You said that the product is based on kubernetes and here we are cube concept. The perfect time to be talking about that. This product really caters to those who are looking for a flexible way to deploy object storage in containerized fashion, appeals to the devops folks and folks who like to automate things and call the communities a P I. S to make uh the actual deployment of the product. Very simple in turnkey and that's really what people turn to kubernetes for is the ability to spin things up when they need them and spend them down as they don't and make that all on commodity hardware and commodity, you know, the quantity pricing and the idea there is that I'm making it as simple and easy as possible. You're not going to get as much shadow I. T. You won't have people going off and putting things off into a public cloud. And so where security of an organization or control of the data that flows with an organization is important. Having something that's easy for developers to use in the same paradigm that they're used to is critical. Now I talked about scale and you know, if you have come to me two years ago I would have told you, you know, kubernetes, yeah, containers people are kicking it around and they're doing some interesting science experiments, I would say in the last year I started to see a lot of requests from customers um in the dozens, even 200 petabyte range as it relates to capacity for committees and specifically looking for C. S. I and cozy with this. This this is the the object storage implementation of the container storage interfaces. Uh So skin was definitely there and the idea of this product is to provide easy scalability from the terabytes range into the multi petabyte range and again it's that ease of use, ease of deployment because it is kubernetes basically because it's a KPI driven that makes that possible. So we're talking about going from a three night minimum to thousands of nodes. and this allows people to deploy the product either at the edge or in the data center um in the edge because you can get very small deployments in the data center to massive scale. So we want to provide something that covers the gamut. The last thing I talked about was replication. So let me just touch upon what I mean by that uh when people go and build these deployments, if you're building a deployment at the edge of an object scale product, you're probably taking in sensor data or some kind of information that you want to then send back to a data center for processing. So you make it simple to do bucket based replication. An object, sorry object storage based replication to move things to another location. And uh that can be used either for bringing data back for analytics from the edge, it can be used for availability. So making sure that you have data available across multiple data centers in the case that you have an outage. It could be even used for sharing data between developers in one site and another site. So we provide that level of flexibility overall. Um this is the next generation object store leveraging. Dell technologies number one position in object storage. So I'm pretty excited about >>and how David is object scale integrated with VM ware software. Stop give us that slice and dice. >>Yeah, and that's a good question. And so, you know, we're talking about this being a Kubernetes based product, you can deploy it on open shift or we integrate directly with VM ware cloud foundation and with Tansy, which is VM ware's container orchestration and management platform. I've seen the demo of the product myself from my team and they've showed it to be did all of the management of the product was actually done within the V sphere Ui, which is great. So easy to go and just enter the V sphere. You I installed the product very simply have it up and running and then go and do all of your management through that user interface or to automate it using the same api is that you used to through VM ware and the 10 Zoo uh platform. >>Thank you, paris are back to you. Security is a big theme here in kubernetes. It's also been a big theme here. We've been talking about it the last three days here at cop con. How does Dell EMC's unstructured portfolio offer that necessary cyber protection that developers need to have and bake that into what they're doing. So >>surely, you know, they talk about cybersecurity, you know, there are different layers of security right from, you know, smarter firewalls to you know how to manage privileged account access and so on. And what we are trying to do is to provide a layer of cyber defense, right at the asset that you're trying to protect, which is the data and this is where the ransom their defender solution is basically detecting any patterns of the compromise that might have happened and alerting the I. T. Um administration about this um possible um intrusions into their into the data by looking at the data access parents in real time. So that's a pretty big deal. Then we're actually putting all this, you know, observance on the primary data and that's what the power scale platform cybersecurity protection features offers. Now we've also extended this kind of detection mechanism for the object data framework on pcs platforms as well. So this is like an additional layer of security at the um layer of uh you know where the data is actually being read and written. Do that's the area, you know, in case of object here we're looking at the S. Three traffic and trying to find his parents in case of a file data atmosphere, looking at the file's access parents and so on. So and in relation to this we're also providing uh data isolation mechanism that is very critical in many cyber recovery processes with the smart absolution as well. So this is something that the developers are getting for like without having to worry about it because that is something implemented at the infrastructure layer itself. So they don't have to worry about you know trying to court it or develop their application to integrate these kinds of things because it's an it's embedded in the infrastructure at the one of the FBI level at the E C. S A P I level. So that's pretty um pretty differentiating in the industry in the country storage solutions. I'll get. >>Uh huh. Yeah. I mean look if you look at what a lot of the object storage players are doing as it relates to cyber security. They're they're playing off the fact that they've implemented object lock and basically using that to lockdown data. And that's that's good. I mean I'm glad that they're doing that and if the case that you were able to lock something down and someone wasn't able to bypass that in some way, that's fantastic. Or if they didn't already encrypted before I got locked down what parts are is referring to is a little bit more than that. It's actually the ability to look at user behavior and determined that something bad is happening. So this is about actually being able to do, you know, predictive analytics being able to go and figure out that you're under attack. There's anomalous behavior um and we're able to go and actually infer from that that something bad is happening and where we think it's happening and lock it down even even more securely than for example just saying hey we provide object like capabilities which is one of the responses that I've seen out there from object storage vendors >>can you share with us. Parts are a customer example like walk us through how this is actually being used and deployed and what some of those business outcomes are. >>Yes lisa. So in terms of container realization itself, they have a media and entertainment kind of customer story here. Um Swiss TXT um they have a platform as a service where they serve their customer base with a range of uh you know, media production and broadcasting solutions and they have containers this platform and part of this computerization is part of their services is they offer infrastructure as a service to you know, media producers who need a high performance storage, high performance computing and power skill And Iceland have been their local solutions to offer this And now that they have containerized their core platform. Well you see a sign interface for power skills, they are able to continue to deliver the infrastructure, high performance infrastructure and storage services to their customers through the A. P I. And it's great to see how fast they could, you know, re factor their application but yet continue to offer the high performance and degrees enterprise grade uh features of the power scale platform. So Swiss Txt and would love to share more. Keep it on the story. Yeah. Hyperlink. >>And where can folks go to learn more about objects scale and what you guys are announcing? Yes, particular. You are a website that you want to direct folks too. >>I would say that technologies dot com. And uh that's the best place to start. >>Yeah, I would go to the Delta product pages around objects should be publicly built. >>Excellent guys, thank you for joining me on the program today. Walking through what how Dell EMC is helping developers with respect to unstructured data, Talking to us about objects skill that you launched VM world, some of those big customer benefits and of course showing us the validation, the proof in the pudding with that customer story. We appreciate your insights. >>Thank you. Thank you lisa >>For my guests. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the Cube live from Los Angeles. We're coming to you from our coverage of coupon and cloud native on North America 21. Coming back. Stick around. Rather I should say we'll be back after a short break with our next guest.

>>Welcome back to the cubes coverage of H P S. Green Lake announcement. We've been following Green Lake and the cadence of announcements making. Now we're gonna talk about ransomware, ransomware become a household term. But what people really don't understand is that virtually any bad actor can become a ransomware criminal by going on the dark web hiring a ransomware as a service sticking, putting a stick into a server and taking a piece of the action and that is a really insidious threat. Uh, the adversaries are extremely capable, so we're going to dig into that with Omar assad, who's the storage platform, lead cloud data services at H P E and Deepak verma vice president of product Zito, which is now an H P E company Gentlemen, welcome to the cube. Good to see you. Thank you. >>Thank you. Welcome. Pleasure to be here. So >>over you heard my little narrative upfront. How does the Xarelto acquisition fit into that discourse? >>Thank you. Dave first of all, we're extremely excited to welcome Sir toe into the HP family. Uh, the acquisition of Puerto expands the Green Lake offerings from H P E uh, into the data protection as a service and ransomware protection as a service capabilities and it at the same time accelerates the transformation that the HP storage businesses going through as it transforms itself into more of a cloud native business, which sort of follows on from the May 4th announcements that you helped us cover. Uh, this enables the HP sales teams to now expand the data protection perimeter and to start offering data protection as a service and ransomware as a service with the best in class technologies uh, from a protection site as well as from ransomware recovery side of the house. And so we're all the way down already trying to integrate uh, you know, the little offerings as part of the Green lake offerings and extending support through our services organization. And the more of these announcements are gonna roll out later in the month. >>And I think that's what you want to see from it as a service offering. You want to see a fast cadence of new services that are not a box by a box that are applying. No, it's services that you want to access. So let's, let's talk about before we get into the tech, can we talk about how you're helping customers deal with ransomware? Maybe some of the use cases that you're seeing. >>First of all, extremely excited to be part of the HP family now. Um, Quick history and that we've been around for about 11 years. We've had about 9000 plus customers and they all benefit from essentially the same technology that we invented 11 years ago. First and foremost, one of the use cases has been continuous data protection. So were built on the CdP platform, which means extremely low RTO S and R P O S for recovery. I'll give you example there um, United Airlines is an application that cost them $1 million dollars for every hour that they're down. They use traditional approaches. That would be a lot of loss with Zito, we have that down two seconds of loss in case and the application goes down. So that's kind of core and fundamental to our plaque. The second uh critical use case that for us has been simplicity. A lot of customers have said we make the difficult, simple. So DRS is a complex uh process. Um, give you an example there. Hcea Healthcare Consolidated four different disaster recovery platforms into a single platform in Puerto and saved about $10 million dollars a year. So it's making that operations of having disaster recovery process is much simpler. Um the third kind of critical use case for us as uh, the environment has evolved as the landscape has involved has been around hybrid cloud. So being able to take customers to the platforms that they want to go to that's critical for us And for our customers an example, there is Kingston technology's so Kingston tried some competitive products to move to Azure, it would take them about 24 hours to recover 30 VMS or so with zero technology. They will get about all their 1000 VMS up in Azure instantaneously. So these are three use cases that were foundational. Built. Built the company in the tech. >>Nice. Thank you. Thank you for that. So simple works well these days, especially with all this complexity we have to deal with. Can we get into the secret sauce a little bit. I mean CdP has been around forever. What do you guys do that? That's different. Maybe you can talk about that. Sure. >>Um it's cdp based, I think we've perfected the technology. It's less about being able to just copy the data. It's more about what you do when things go bump. We've made it simpler with driven economies of scale lower and being platform agnostic. We've really brought that up across to whatever platforms once upon a time it was moving from physical to virtual or even across different virtualization platforms and then being able to move across to whatever cloud platform customer may want or or back >>to cbP continuous data protection by the way for the audience that may not know that go ahead. And >>one of the additional points that I want to add to the box comment over here is the the basics of platform independence is what really drew uh hp technologists into the technology because you know, one of the things we have many, we have the high end platform with the H B electra nine Kv of the electro six kids the midrange platform. Then we have a bunch of file and object offerings on the side. What zero does it University universally applies to all those technologies and along with, you know, as you pair them up with our computer offerings to offer a full stack but now the stack is disaster recovery capable. Natively with the integration of certo, you know, one of the things that, you know, Deepak talked about about the as your migrations that a lot of the customers are talking about cloud is also coming up as a D our use case for a lot of our customers, customers, you know, you know, as we went through thousands of customers interviews one of the, one of the key things that came back was investing in a D our data center which is just waiting there for a disaster to happen. It's a very expensive insurance policy. So absurd. Oh, through its native capabilities allows customers to do is to just use public cloud as a D our target and and as a service, it just takes care of all the format conversions and recoveries and although that's completely automated inside the platform and and we feel that, you know, when you combine this either at the high end of data center storage offering or the middle age offering with this replication, D. R. And ransomware protection built into the same package, working under the same hood, it just simplifies and streamlines the customers deployment. >>Come here a couple of things. So first of all historically, if you wanted to recover to appoint within let's say, you know, 10 seconds, five seconds you have to pay up. Big time. Number one. Number two is you couldn't test your D. R. It was too risky. So people just had it in, they had a checkbox on compliance but they actually couldn't really test it because they were afraid they were going to lose data. So it sounds like you're solving both of those problems or >>or you know we remember the D. R. Test where it was a weekend. It was an event right? It was the event and at the end of july that the entire I. T. Organizing honey >>it's not gonna be home this weekend. Exactly what >>we've changed. That is a click of a button. You can D. R. Test today if you want to you can have disaster recovery still running. You can D. R. Test in Azure bring up your environment an isolated network bubble, make sure everything's running and bring it and bring it down. The interesting thing is the technology was invented back when our fear in the industry was losing a data center was losing power was catastrophic, natural disasters. But the technology has lent itself very well to the new threats which which are very much around ransomware as you mentioned because it's a type of disaster. Somebody's going after your data. Physical servers are still around but you still need to go back to a point in time and you need to do that very quickly. So the technology has really just found itself uh appealing to new challenges. >>If a customer asks you can I really eliminate cyber attacks, where should I put my my if I had 100 bucks to spend. Should I spend it on you know layers and defense should I spend it on recovery. Both, what would you tell them? >>I think it's a balanced answer. I think prevention is 100% impossible. Uh It's really I'd say spend it in in thirds. You want to spend a third of it and and prevention a third of it maybe in detection and then a third of it in uh recovery. So it's really that balancing act that means you can't leave the front door open but then have a lot of recovery techniques invested in. It has to be it has to be a balance and it's also not a matter of if it's a matter of when so we invest in all three areas. Hopefully two of them will work to your advantage. >>You dave you you should always protect your perimeter. I mean that that goes without saying but then as you invest in other aspects of the business, as Deepak mentioned, recovery needs to be fast and quick recovery whether from your recovering from a backup disaster. Are you covering from a data center disaster a corrupted file or from a ransomware attack. A couple of things that zero really stitches together like journal based recovery has been allowed for a while but making journal based recovery platform independent in a seamless fashion with the click of a button within five seconds go back to where your situation was. That gives you the peace of mind that even if the perimeter was breached, you're still protected, you know, five minutes into the problem And, and that's the peace of mind, which along with data protection as a service, disaster recovery as a service and now integrating this, you know, recovery from ransomware along with it in a very simple, easy to consume package is what drew us into the >>more you can do this you said on the use the cloud as a target. I could use the cloud as an air gap if I wanted to. It sounds like it's cloud Native, correct? Just wrap your stack in kubernetes and shove it in the cloud and have a host and say we're cloud to No, really I'm serious. So >>absolutely, we we looked at that approach and that that's where the challenge comes in, Right? So I give you the example of Kingston technology just doesn't scale, it's not fast enough. What we did was developed a platform for cloud Native. We consume cloud services where necessary in order to provide that scalability. So one example in Azure is being able to use scale set. So think about a scenario where you just declare a disaster, you've got 1000 VMS to move over, we can spin up the workers that need to do the work to get 1000 VMS spin them down. So you're up and running instantaneously and that involves using cloud Native uh tools and technologies, >>can we stay on that for a minute, So take take us through an example of what life was like would be like without zero trying to recover and what it's like with Puerto resources, complexity time maybe you could sort of paint a picture. Sure. >>Let me, I'll actually use an example from a customer 10 Kata. They uh develop defensive fabrics, especially fabric. So think about firefighters, think about our men and women abroad that need protective clothing that developed the fibers behave. They were hit by ransomware by crypto locker. That this was before zero. Unfortunately it took they took about a two week uh data loss. It took them weeks to recover that environment, bring it back up and the confidence was pretty low. They invested in, they looked at our technology, they invested in the technology and then they were hit with a different variant of crypto locker immediately. The the IT administrators and the ITS folks there were relieved right, they had a sense of confidence to say yes we can recover. And the second time around they had data loss of about 10 seconds, they could recover within a few minutes. So that's the before and after picture giving customers that confidence to say yep, a breach happened, we tried our best but now it's up to recovery and I can recover without having to dig tapes out from some vault and hopefully have a good copy of data sitting there and then try that over and over again and there's a tolerance right before a time before which business will not be able to sustain itself. So what we want to do is minimize that for businesses so that they can recover as quickly as possible with as little data loss as possible. >>Thank you for that. So, Omar, there's a bigger sort of cyber recovery agenda that you have as part of, of green lake, I'm sure. What, what should we expect, what's next? Where do you want to take this? >>So uh excellent question point in the future day. So one of the things that you helped us, uh you know, unveil uh in May was the data services. Cloud console. Data services. Cloud console was the first uh sort of delivery as we took the storage business as it is and start to transform into more of a cloud native business. We introduced electra uh which is the cloud native hardware with the customers buy for persistent storage within their data center. But then data services, cloud console truly cemented that cloud operational model. Uh We separated the management from, from the devices itself and sort of lifted it up as a sas service into the public, public cloud. So now what you're gonna see is, you know, more and more data and data management services come up on the data services. Cloud console and and zero is going to be one of the first ones. Cloud physics was another one that we we talked about, but zero is the is the true data management service that is going to come up on data services, cloud console as part of the Green Lake services agenda that that HP has in the customer's environ and then you're gonna see compliance as a service. You're going to see data protection as a service. You're gonna see disaster recovery as a service. But the beautiful thing about it is, is choice with simplicity as these services get loaded up on data services, clown console. All our customers instantly get it. There's nothing to install, there's nothing to troubleshoot uh, there's nothing to size. All those capabilities are available on the console, customers go in and just start consuming Xarelto capabilities from a management control plane, Disaster recovery control plan are going to be available on the data services, cloud console, automatically detecting electro systems, rian Bear systems, container based systems, whichever our customers have deployed and from there is just a flip of a button. Another way to look at it is it sort of gives you that slider that you have data protection or back up on one side, you've got disaster recovery on one side, you've got ransomware protection on on the extreme right side, you can just move a slider across and choose the service level that you want without worrying about best practices, installation, application integration. All of that just takes control from the data services, cloud concepts. >>Great, great summary because historically you would have to build that right now. You can buy it as a service. You can programmatically, you know, deploy it and that's a game changer. Have to throw it over the fence to some folks. That's okay. Now, you know, make it make it work and then they change the code and you come back a lot of finger pointing. It's now it's your responsibility. >>Absolutely. Absolutely. We're excited to provide Zito continue provides the desert of customers but also integrate with the Green Green Lake platform and let the rest of Green Lake customers experience some of the sort of technology and really make that available as a service. >>That's great. This is a huge challenge for customers. I mean they do, I pay their ransom. Do not pay the ransom. If I pay the ransom the FBI is going to come after me. But if I don't pay the ransom, I'm not gonna get the crypto key. So solutions like this are critical. You certainly see the president pushing for that. The United States government said, hey, we got to do a better job. Good job guys, Thanks for for sharing your story in the cube and congratulations. Thank >>you. Thank you David. >>All right. And thank you for watching everybody. Uh this is the, I want to tell you that everything that you're seeing today as part of the Green Lake announcement is going to be available on demand as part of the HP discover more. So you got to check that out. Thank you. You're watching the cube. >>Mhm mm.

>>AWS public sector summit here in person in Washington, D. C. For two days live. Finally a real event. I'm john for your host of the cube. Got a great guest Howard Levinson from data bricks, regional vice president and general manager of the federal team for data bricks. Uh Super unicorn. Is it a decade corn yet? It's uh, not yet public but welcome to the cube. >>I don't know what the next stage after unicorn is, but we're growing rapidly. >>Thank you. Our audience knows David bricks extremely well. Always been on the cube many times. Even back, we were covering them back when big data was big data. Now it's all data everything. So we watched your success. Congratulations. Thank you. Um, so there's no, you know, not a big bridge for us across to see you here at AWS public sector summit. Tell us what's going on inside the data bricks amazon relationship. >>Yeah. It's been a great relationship. You know, when the company got started some number of years ago we got a contract with the government to deliver the data brooks capability and they're classified cloud in amazon's classified cloud. So that was the start of a great federal relationship today. Virtually all of our businesses in AWS and we run in every single AWS environment from commercial cloud to Govcloud to secret top secret environments and we've got customers doing great things and experiencing great results from data bricks and amazon. >>The federal government's the classic, I call migration opportunity. Right? Because I mean, let's face it before the pandemic even five years ago, even 10 years ago. Glacier moving speed slow, slow and they had to get modernized with the pandemic forced really to do it. But you guys have already cleared the runway with your value problems. You've got lake house now you guys are really optimized for the cloud. >>Okay, hardcore. Yeah. We are, we only run in the cloud and we take advantage of every single go fast feature that amazon gives us. But you know john it's The Office of Management and Budget. Did a study a couple of years ago. I think there were 28,000 federal data centers, 28,000 federal data centers. Think about that for a minute and just think about like let's say in each one of those data centers you've got a handful of operational data stores of databases. The federal government is trying to take all of that data and make sense out of it. The first step to making sense out of it is bringing it all together, normalizing it. Fed aerating it and that's exactly what we do. And that's been a real win for our federal clients and it's been a real exciting opportunity to watch people succeed in that >>endeavour. We have another guest on. And she said those data center huggers tree huggers data center huggers, majority of term people won't let go. Yeah. So but they're slowly dying away and moving on to the cloud. So migrations huge. How are you guys migrating with your customers? Give us an example of how it's working. What are some of the use cases? >>So before I do that I want to tell you a quick story. I've I had the luxury of working with the Air Force Chief data officer Ailene vedrine and she is commonly quoted as saying just remember as as airmen it's not your data it's the Air Force's data. So people were data center huggers now their data huggers but all of that data belongs to the government at the end of the day. So how do we help in that? Well think about all this data sitting in all these operational data stores they're getting it's getting updated all the time. But you want to be able to Federated this data together and make some sense out of it. So for like an organization like uh us citizenship and immigration services they had I think 28 different data sources and they want to be able to pull that data basically in real time and bring it into a data lake. Well that means doing a change data capture off of those operational data stores transforming that data and normalizing it so that you can then enjoy it. And we've done that I think they're now up to 70 data sources that are continually ingested into their data lake. And from there they support thousands of users doing analysis and reports for the whole visa processing system for the United States, the whole naturalization environment And their efficiency has gone up I think by their metrics by 24 x. >>Yeah. I mean Sandy carter was just on the cube earlier. She's the Vice president partner ecosystem here at public sector. And I was coming to her that federal game has changed, it used to be hard to get into you know everybody and you navigate the trip wires and all the subtle hints and and the people who are friends and it was like cloak and dagger and so people were locked in on certain things databases and data because now has to be freely available. I know one of the things that you guys are passionate about and this is kind of hard core architectural thing is that you need horizontally scalable data to really make a I work right. Machine learning works when you have data. How far along are these guys in their thinking when you have a customer because we're seeing progress? How far along are we? >>Yeah, we still have a long way to go in the federal government. I mean, I tell everybody, I think the federal government's probably four or five years behind what data bricks top uh clients are doing. But there are clearly people in the federal government that have really ramped it up and are on a par were even exceeding some of the commercial clients, U. S. C. I. S CBP FBI or some of the clients that we work with that are pretty far ahead and I'll say I mentioned a lot about the operational data stores but there's all kinds of data that's coming in at U S. C. I. S. They do these naturalization interviews, those are captured in real text. So now you want to do natural language processing against them, make sure these interviews are of the highest quality control, We want to be able to predict which people are going to show up for interviews based on their geospatial location and the day of the week and other factors the weather perhaps. So they're using all of these data types uh imagery text and structure data all in the Lake House concept to make predictions about how they should run their >>business. So that's a really good point. I was talking with keith brooks earlier directive is development, go to market strategy for AWS public sector. He's been there from the beginning this the 10th year of Govcloud. Right, so we're kind of riffing but the jpl Nasa Jpl, they did production workloads out of the gate. Yeah. Full mission. So now fast forward today. Cloud Native really is available. So like how do you see the the agencies in the government handling Okay. Re platform and I get that but now to do the reef acting where you guys have the Lake House new things can happen with cloud Native technologies, what's the what's the what's the cross over point for that point. >>Yeah, I think our Lake House architecture is really a big breakthrough architecture. It used to be, people would take all of this data, they put it in a Hadoop data lake, they'd end up with a data swamp with really not good control or good data quality. And uh then they would take the data from the data swamp where the data lake and they curate it and go through an E. T. L. Process and put a second copy into their data warehouse. So now you have two copies of the data to governance models. Maybe two versions of the data. A lot to manage. A lot to control with our Lake House architecture. You can put all of that data in the data lake it with our delta format. It comes in a curated way. Uh there's a catalogue associated with the data. So you know what you've got. And now you can literally build an ephemeral data warehouse directly on top of that data and it exists only for the period of time that uh people need it. And so it's cloud Native. It's elastically scalable. It terminates when nobody's using it. We run the whole center for Medicaid Medicare services. The whole Medicaid repository for the United States runs in an ephemeral data warehouse built on Amazon S three. >>You know, that is a huge call out, I want to just unpack that for a second. What you just said to me puts the exclamation point on cloud value because it's not your grandfather's data warehouse, it's like okay we do data warehouse capability but we're using higher level cloud services, whether it's governance stuff for a I to actually make it work at scale for those environments. I mean that that to me is re factoring that's not re platform Ng. Just re platform that's re platform Ng in the cloud and then re factoring capability for on uh new >>advantages. It's really true. And now you know at CMS, they have one copy of the data so they do all of their reporting, they've got a lot of congressional reports that they need to do. But now they're leveraging that same data, not making a copy of it for uh the center for program integrity for fraud. And we know how many billions of dollars worth of fraud exist in the Medicaid system. And now we're applying artificial intelligence and machine learning on entity analytics to really get to the root of those problems. It's a game >>changer. And this is where the efficiency comes in at scale. Because you start to see, I mean we always talk on the cube about like how software is changed the old days you put on the shelf shelf where they called it. Uh that's our generation. And now you got the cloud, you didn't know if something is hot or not until the inventory is like we didn't sell through in the cloud. If you're not performing, you suck basically. So it's not working, >>it's an instant Mhm. >>Report card. So now when you go to the cloud, you think the data lake and uh the lake house what you guys do uh and others like snowflake and were optimized in the cloud, you can't deny it. And then when you compare it to like, okay, so I'm saving you millions and millions if you're just on one thing, never mind the top line opportunities. >>So so john you know, years ago people didn't believe the cloud was going to be what it is. Like pretty much today, the clouds inevitable. It's everywhere. I'm gonna make you another prediction. Um And you can say you heard it here first, the data warehouse is going away. The Lake house is clearly going to replace it. There's no need anymore for two separate copies, there's no need for a proprietary uh storage copy of your data and people want to be able to apply more than sequel to the data. Uh Data warehouses, just restrict. What about an ocean house? >>Yeah. Lake is kind of small. When you think about this lake, Michigan is pretty big now, I think it's I >>think it's going to go bigger than that. I think we're talking about Sky Computer, we've been a cloud computing, we're going to uh and we're going to do that because people aren't gonna put all of their data in one place, they're going to have, it spread across different amazon regions or or or amazon availability zones and you're going to want to share data and you know, we just introduced this delta sharing capability. I don't know if you're familiar with it but it allows you to share data without a sharing server directly from picking up basically the amazon, you RLS and sharing them with different organizations. So you're sharing in place. The data actually isn't moving. You've got great governance and great granularity of the data that you choose to share and data sharing is going to be the next uh >>next break. You know, I really loved the Lake House were fairly sing gateway. I totally see that. So I totally would align with that and say I bet with you on that one. The Sky net Skynet, the Sky computing. >>See you're taking it away man, >>I know Skynet got anything that was computing in the Sky is Skynet that's terminated So but that's real. I mean I think that's a concept where it's like, you know what services and functions does for servers, you don't have a data, >>you've got to be able to connect data, nobody lives in an island. You've got to be able to connect data and more data. We all know more data produces better results. So how do you get more data? You connect to more data sources, >>Howard great to have you on talk about the relationship real quick as we end up here with amazon, What are you guys doing together? How's the partnership? >>Yeah, I mean the partnership with amazon is amazing. We have, we work uh, I think probably 95% of our federal business is running in amazon's cloud today. As I mentioned, john we run across uh, AWS commercial AWS GovCloud secret environment. See to us and you know, we have better integration with amazon services than I'll say some of the amazon services if people want to integrate with glue or kinesis or Sagemaker, a red shift, we have complete integration with all of those and that's really, it's not just a partnership at the sales level. It's a partnership and integration at the engineering level. >>Well, I think I'm really impressed with you guys as a company. I think you're an example of the kind of business model that people might have been afraid of which is being in the cloud, you can have a moat, you have competitive advantage, you can build intellectual property >>and, and john don't forget, it's all based on open source, open data, like almost everything that we've done. We've made available to people, we get 30 million downloads of the data bricks technology just for people that want to use it for free. So no vendor lock in. I think that's really important to most of our federal clients into everybody. >>I've always said competitive advantage scale and choice. Right. That's a data bricks. Howard? Thanks for coming on the key, appreciate it. Thanks again. Alright. Cube coverage here in Washington from face to face physical event were on the ground. Of course, we're also streaming a digital for the hybrid event. This is the cubes coverage of a W. S. Public sector Summit will be right back after this short break.

(upbeat music) >> Welcome to this CUBE conversation. I'm Lisa Martin. Today, we're going to be talking about the cyber protection and recovery solutions for unstructured data. I have two guests joining me, Andrew Mackay is here, The President of Superna, and Parasar Kodati, Senior Consultant, ISG Product Marketing at Dell technologies. Guys, great to have you on the program talking about cybersecurity, cyber resiliency. Something that we've heard a lot in the news in the last 18 months or so. Parasar, let's go ahead and start with you. Talk to us about what you're seeing from a cybersecurity perspective, some of the challenges the last 18 months or so, and then tell us what Dell is doing specifically to really infuse its storage solutions to enable customers to have that cyber resiliency that they need. >> Sure, Lisa. So today, there's no question that cyberattacks have become a serious threat for business operations, for organizations of all sizes across all industries. And if you look at the consequences, there is a huge financial impact of course, through the, like 70% of the cyberattacks when they're financially motivated. Look at the ransom part, which is a big financial impact in itself, but look at the lost revenue from disrupted operations, legal expenses, and sometimes regulatory fines, and so on, add up to the financial impact. And if you look at the data after data loss that is involved, data being such a critical asset for organizations, think about losing customer data, losing access to customer data or critical applications that depend on customer data. Similarly, data related to your business operations data that is source of your competitive advantage data that could be very confidential information as well. And when it comes to government organization, institutions, there is also the issue of national security and the need to protect critical infrastructure that depend on these IT systems as well. So absolutely it is becoming an imperative for IT organizations to improve the cyber resiliency, to boost the cyber resiliency of their organization. At Dell technologies, for the storage products that we offer, we have integrated solutions to protect the data in terms of detecting patterns of data access, to detect the cyber attacks in advance, to kind of put IT a step ahead of these attackers and also have the tools and technologies to recover from a cyberattack rapidly so that the business can continue to run. >> That recovery is absolutely critical. It's one thing to have all this data, customer data, PII, competitive advantage data, but you have to be able to recover it because as you said, we've seen this now become a matter of national security, infrastructure being threatened. The ransomware rise we have seen in the last 18 months has been unprecedented. I want to talk now, Andrew, about Superna. Talk to us about what you guys do and how you're a partner with Dell technologies and helping customers recover and really be cyber resilient. >> Yeah, we've been working with Dell for years. In fact, our products are built in targeting the Isilon PowerScale platform. So we're at very closely tightly integrated solution that focuses on solving one problem, solving it really well. >> Talk to me a little bit about what you guys are doing specifically with the Dell technology storage solutions to help customers in any industry be able to recover. As we know now, ransomware is not, if it happens to us, it's a wand. Give us a little bit more of a dissection of those solutions. >> So when we looked at this problem, it's associated with files, right? But today, there's files and objects, objects and other types of unstructured data. So we've built a solution that addresses both file and object. But one of the areas that we think is important for customers to consider is the framework that they choose. They shouldn't just jump in and start looking for products. They should step back and take a look at what frameworks exist. For instance, the NIST framework, that guides them in how they build and tick off all the key boxes and how to build a cyber resilient solution. >> So for companies that are using traditional legacy tools, backup and restore it, how was what Superna enables, how is it different? >> So the buzzword these days is zero trust. So I'm going to use the buzzword. So we use a zero trust model, but really that comes down to being proactive. And I consider a backup/restore, a bit of a legacy approach. That's just restore the data after you've been attacked. So we think you should get in front of the problem and don't trust any of the access to the storage and try to take care of the problem at the source, which means detection patterns, locking usually out of the file system, reacting in real time to real-time IO that's being processed by a storage device. >> Got it. Parasar, let's talk now about unstructured data specifically and why does it need protection against the attacks? >> Traditionally, structured data or the enterprise databases have been the more critical data to protect, but more and more unstructured data is also becoming a source of competitive differentiation for customers. Think about artificial intelligence, machine learning, internet of things, a lot of edge computing. And a lot of this data is actually being stored on highly scalable NAS platforms like Dell EMC PowerScale. And this is where, given the volume of the data involved, we actually have a unique solution for unstructured data to protect it from cyberattacks and also having the recovery mechanisms in place. So most of the audience might have already heard about the PowerProtect Cyber Recovery solution, but for unstructured data, we have something unique in the industry in terms of rapid recovery of large amount of data within a few hours for a business to be up and running in the event of a cyberattack. So when it comes to the data protection technologies on the PowerScale platform, we have, starting from the operating system, the OneFS, already has a great foundation in terms of access control, separate access zones that can be protected. And these things work across multiple protocols, which is a really key thing about how this technology works in terms of access control. But thanks to the great technology that Andrew and his team is building, the Ransomware Defender, real-time access auditing. These products from the core, kind of cyber resiliency framework when it comes to unstructured data on power skill platforms. >> Got it. Andrew, let's talk about the NIST framework. As we've talked about in the last few minutes, cybersecurity has really become quite a business. Unfortunately, in the last 18 months, we've seen huge x-fold increases in ransomware attacks of any type of company. Talk to me about how, where are those conversations? Are you having conversations at the board level, at the C-level, in terms of the right cyber resiliency framework that organizations need to put in place? >> Yeah, we talk with customers almost daily. That's a daily conversation we have with customers about the requirements and the frameworks offer. And then this one, especially offers all of the key requirements from detection to prevention to recovery. And if you look at all of those requirements, you may end up with multiple products. And so we've built a solution that can address all of the key requirements in a single product. So for example, I mentioned detection and mitigation and recovery. Well, that's our protect the data at the source strategy, but the number one recommendation these days is to have an offline copy of your data. And that requires a cyber vault solution where you're going to take a copy of your data, place it in an offline storage device and you're going to manage that through some sort of automation. We've married those two requirements into a single product. So we actually look at the whole framework and can comply with all aspects of that, including the offline component. And that's one of the sort of secret sauce, part of our solution is that we can both protect at the source and maintain and monitor the offline copy of the data as well at the same time. >> So, the offline copy, interesting. Talk to me about how frequently is that updated so that if a business has to go back and restore and recover, they can. What's that timeframe of how frequently that's updated? >> So generally, we recommend about 24 hours. Because in reality, it's going to take time to uncover that there's something seriously wrong with your production data. In the case of our solution, the hope and intent is that really the problem is addressed right at the source, meaning we've detected ransomware on the source data and we can protect it and stop it before it actually ends up in your cyber vault. That's really the key to our solution. But if you have that day, recovery with the Isilon PowerScale snapshotting features, you can revert petabytes of data and bring it online in a worst-case scenario. And we tell customers, you need to work backwards from what is the worst case. And if you do that, you're going to realize that what you need is petabyte scale data recovery with your offline data. And that's a very hard problem to solve that we think we've solved really well with the PowerScale. >> And just sticking with you for a second. In the last year and a half, since things have been so turbulent, have you seen any industries in particular that have come to you saying, we really need to get ahead of this challenging situation as we've seen attacks across infrastructure? I mean, you name it, we've seen it. >> Yeah, the number one vertical for sure is healthcare. Healthcare has been the target. In fact, it was last October. I think the FBI made an announcement to all healthcare organizations to improve their cybersecurity. That's probably our largest vertical, but there really isn't a vertical that doesn't feel the need to do something more than they are today. Finance of course, manufacturing, retail. Basically, there's no target that isn't the target these days. But I would say for sure, it's going to be healthcare because they have a willingness and a need to have their data online all the time. >> Right, and it's absolutely a such critical information. Parasar, back to you. I'm curious to understand maybe any joint customers that you guys are working together with and how they have, what are some of the recovery time and the recovery point objectives that you're able to help them achieve? >> Sure, Lisa. So with Ransomware Defender, for example, there are more than thousand customers, almost thousand, we are very close, I think the exact number is around 970 or something, but have adopted this set of tools to boost their cyber resiliency in terms of being able to detect these attack patterns or any indications of a compromised through the way data is being accessed or the kinds of users that are accessing the data and so on. But also when it comes to isolation of the data, that has also been a lot of interest for customers to be able to have this cyber ward, which is air gap from your primary infrastructure. And of course, which is regulated with a lot of intelligence in terms of looking for any flags to close the connection and continue to replicate data or to terminate the connection and keep the cyber ward secure. So, absolutely. >> Andrew, how do you guys help? First of all, is it possible for companies to be able to stay ahead of the attackers? The attackers are also taking advantage of the emerging technologies that businesses are, but how do you, if the answer is yes, how do you help companies stay ahead of those attackers? >> I think a prime example of that is if you look at ransomware today and there's publicized versions or variants or names of it, they all attack files. But the bad actors are looking for the weak link. They're always looking for the weak link to go after the corporate data. And so the new frontier is object storage because these types of systems are compliance data. It's frequently used to store backup data, and that is a prime target for attackers. And so the security tools and the maturity of the technology to protect object data is nowhere near what's in place for file data. So we've announced and released the ability to protect object data in real-time, the same way we've already done it for years for file data, because we understand that that's just the next target. And so we were offering that type of solution in a unified single product. >> And the last question, Parasar for you. Where can folks go to learn more about this joint solution and how can they get started with it? >> Sure, Lisa. delltechnologies.com/powerscale, that's the unstructured data platform or the scale of NAS platform from Dell technologies. And we have great content there to educate customers about the nature of this cyberattacks and what kind of data is at risk and what is the kind of steps that can take to the point that Andrew mentioned, to build a cyber resiliency strategy as well as how to use these tools effectively to protect against attacks and also be very agile when it comes to recovery. >> Right, that agility with respect to recovery is critical because as we know, the trends are that we're only going to see cybersecurity and risks and attacks increase in some businesses and every industry are vulnerable and really need to put in place the right types of strategies and solutions to be able to recover when something happens. Guys, thank you so much for joining me. This is such an interesting topic. Great to hear about the partnership with Superna and Dell Technologies. And I'm sure your joint customers are very appreciative of the work that you're doing together. >> Thank you, Lisa. >> Great, thank you. >> From my guests, I'm Lisa Martin and you're watching a CUBE conversation. (upbeat music)

>>from around the globe it's the >>cube >>presenting >>Future Cloud one event. A >>world of >>opportunities >>brought to you by Cisco. We're here with Dejoy Pandey a VP of emerging tech and incubation at Cisco. V. Joy. Good to see you welcome. >>Good to see you as well. Thank you Dave and pleasure to be here. >>So in 2020 we kind of had to redefine the notion of agility when it came to digital business or you know organizations, they had to rethink their concept of agility and business resilience. What are you seeing in terms of how companies are thinking about their operations in this sort of new abnormal context? >>Yeah I think that's a great question I think what what we're seeing is that pretty much the application is the center of the universe and if you think about it the application is actually driving brand recognition and the brand experience and the brand value. So the example I like to give is think about a banking app uh recovered that did everything that you would expect it to do. But if you wanted to withdraw cash from your bank you would actually have to go to the ATM and punch in some numbers and then look at your screen and go through a process and then finally withdraw cash. Think about what that would have, what that would do in a post pandemic era where people are trying to go contact less. And so in a situation like this the digitization efforts that all of these companies are going through and the modernization of the automation is what is driving brand recognition, brand trust and brand experience. >>Yeah. So I was gonna ask you when I heard you say that, I was gonna say well but hasn't it always been about the application? But it's different now, isn't it? So I wonder if you talk more about how the application is experience is changing? Yes. As a result of this new digital mandate. But how should organizations think about optimizing those experiences in this new world? >>Absolutely. And I think, yes, it's always been about the application, but it's becoming the center of the universe right now because all interactions with customers and consumers and even businesses are happening through that application. So if the application is unreliable or if the application is not available is untrusted insecure, uh, there's a problem. There's a problem with the brand with the company and the trust that consumers and customers have with our company. So if you think about an application developer, the weight he or she is carrying on their shoulders is tremendous because you're thinking about rolling features quickly to be competitive. That's the only way to be competitive in this world. You need to think about availability and resiliency, like you pointed out and experience, you need to think about security and trust. Am I as a customer or consumer willing to put my data in that application? So velocity availability, security and trust and all of that depends on the developer. So the experience, the security, the trust, the feature velocity is what is driving the brand experience now. >>So are those two tensions that say agility and trust, you know, zero trust used to be a buzzword now, it's a mandate. But are those two vectors counter posed? Can they be merged into one and not affect each other? Does the question makes sense? Right? Security usually handcuffs my speed. But how do you address that? >>Yeah, that's a great question. And I think if you think about it today, that's the way things are. And if you think about this developer, all they want to do is run fast because they want to build those features out and they're going to pick and choose a purpose and services that matter to them and build up their app and they want the complexities of the infrastructure and security and trust to be handled by somebody else is not that they don't care about it, but they want that abstraction so that is handled by somebody else. And typically within an organization we've seen in the past where there's friction between Netapp, Succop cited hopes and the cloud platform teams and the developer on one side and these these frictions and these meetings and toil actually take a toll on the developer and that's why companies and apps and developers are not as agile as they would like to be. So I think, but it doesn't have to be that way. So I think if there was something that would allow a developer to pick and choose, discover the apis that they would like to use, connect those api is in a very simple manner and then be able to scale them out and be able to secure them and in fact not just secure them during the run time when it's deployed, we're right off the back when the fire up that I'd and start developing the application, wouldn't that be nice? And as you do that, there is a smooth transition between that discovery connectivity and ease of consumption and security with the idea cops, netapp psych ops teams and see source to ensure that they are not doing something that the organization won't allow them to do in a very seamless manner. >>I want to go back and talk about security but I want to add another complexity before we do that. So for a lot of organizations in the public cloud became a staple of keeping the lights on during the pandemic. But it brings new complexities and differences in terms of latency security, which I want to come back to deployment models etcetera. So what are some of the specific networking challenges that you've seen with the cloud? Native architecture is how are you addressing those? >>Yeah. In fact, if you think about cloud, to me that is a that is a different way of seeing a distributed system. And if you think about a distributed system, what is at the center of the distributed system is the network. So my my favorite comment here is that the network is the wrong time for all distribute systems and modern applications. And that is true because if you think about where things are today, like you said, there's there's cloud assets that a developer might use in the banking example that I gave earlier. I mean if you want to build a contact less app so that you get verified, a customer gets verified on the app. They walk over to the ATM and they were broadcast without touching that ATM. In that kind of an example, you're touching the mobile Rus, let's say, Ohio escapees, you're touching Cloud API is where the back end might sit, you're touching on primary purpose, maybe it's an oracle database or a mainframe even where transactional data exists, you're touching branch pipes were the team actually exists and the need for consistency when you withdraw cash and you're carrying all of this and in fact there might be customer data sitting in Salesforce somewhere. So it's cloud API is a song premise branch, it's ass is mobile and you need to bring all of these things together and over time you will see more and more of these API is coming from various as providers. So it's not just cloud providers but saAS providers that the developer has to use. And so this complexity is very very real and this complexity is across the wide open internet. So the application is built across this wide open internet. So the problems of discovery ability, the problems of being able to simply connect these apis and manage the data flow across these apis. The problems of consistency of policy and consumption because all of these areas have their own nuances and what they mean, what the arguments mean and what the A. P. I. Actually means. How do you make it consistent and easy for the developer? That is the networking problem. And that is a problem of building out this network, making traffic engineering easy making policy easy, making scale out, scale down easy, all of that our networking problems. And so we are solving those problems. Uh Francisco >>Yeah the internet is the new private network but it's not so private. So I want to go back to security. I often say that the security model of building a moat, you dig the moat, you get the hardened castle that's just outdated now that the queen is left her castle. I always say it's dangerous out there. And the point is you touched on this? It's it's a huge decentralized system and with distributed apps and data, that notion of perimeter security, it's just no longer valid. So I wonder if you could talk more about how you're thinking about this problem and you definitely address some of that in your earlier comments. But what are you specifically doing to address this? And how do you see it evolving? >>Yeah, I mean that that's that's a very important point. I mean I think if you think about again the wide open internet being the wrong time for all modern applications, what is perimeter security in this uh in this new world? I mean it's to me it boils down to securing an API because again, going with that running example of this contact lists cash withdrawal feature for a bank. The FBI wherever it sits on tram branch sas cloud, IOS android doesn't matter that FBI is your new security perimeter and the data object that is trying to access is also the new security perimeter. So if you can secure ap to ap communication and P two data object communication, you should be good. So that is the new frontier. But guess what? Software is buggy? Everybody's software not saying Cisco software, everybody's Softwares buggy. Uh software is buggy, humans are not reliable and so things mature, Things change, Things evolve over time. So there needs to be defense in depth. So you need to secure at the API layer had the data object layer, but you also need to secure at every layer below it so that you have good defense and depth if any layer in between is not working out properly. So for us that means ensuring ap to ap communication, not just during long time when the app has been deployed and is running, but during deployment and also during the development life cycle. So as soon as the developer launches an ID, they should be able to figure out that this API is security uses reputable. It has compliant, it is compliant to my my organization's needs because it is hosted, let's say from Germany and my organization wants a P is to be used only if they are being hosted out of Germany. So compliance needs and and security needs and reputation. Is it available all the time? Is it secure and being able to provide that feedback all the time between the security teams and the developer teams in a very seamless real time manner? Yes, again, that's something that we're trying to solve through some of the services that we're trying to produce in SAN Francisco. >>Yeah, I mean those that layered approach that you're talking about is critical because every layer has, you know, some vulnerability and so you you've got to protect that with some depth in terms of thinking about security, how should we think about where where Cisco's primary value add is, I mean it's parts of the interview has a great security business. Is growing business. Is it your intention to to to to add value across the entire value chain? I mean obviously you can't do everything so you've got a partner but so has the we think about Cisco's role over the next I'm thinking longer term over the over the next decade. >>Yeah, I mean I think so. We do come in with good strength from the runtime side of the house. So if you think about the security aspects that we haven't played today, uh there's a significant set of assets that we have around user security around around uh with with do and password less. We have significant assets in random security. I mean the entire portfolio that Cisco brings to the table is I don't run time security. The security checks aspects around posture and policy that will bring to the table. And as you see, Cisco evolve over time, you will see us shifting left. I mean I know it's an overused term, but that is where security is moving towards. And so that is where api security and data security are moving towards. So learning what we have during runtime. Because again, runtime is where you learn what's available and that's where you can apply all of the M. L. And I models to figure out what works what doesn't taking those learnings, Taking those catalogs, taking that reputation database and moving it into the deployment and development life cycle and making sure that that's part of that entire they have to deploy to runtime chain is what you will see Cisco do overtime. >>That's fantastic phenomenal perspective video. Thanks for coming on the cube. Great to have you and look forward to having you again. >>Absolutely. Thank you. Pleasure to be here. >>This is Dave Volonte for the cube. Thank you for watching. Mhm. >>Mhm mm.

>>mhm, mm. All right. Mhm. Mhm, mm mm. Mhm. Yeah, mm. Mhm. Yeah, yeah. Mhm, mm. Okay. Mm. Yeah, Yeah. >>Mhm. Mhm. Yeah. Welcome to future cloud made possible by Cisco. My name is Dave Volonte and I'm your host. You know, the cloud is evolving like the universe is expanding at an accelerated pace. No longer is the cloud. Just a remote set of services, you know, somewhere up there. No, the cloud, it's extending to on premises. Data centers are reaching into the cloud through adjacent locations. Clouds are being connected together to each other and eventually they're gonna stretch to the edge and the far edge workloads, location latency, local laws and economics will define the value customers can extract from this new cloud model which unifies the operating experience independent of location. Cloud is moving rapidly from a spare capacity slash infrastructure resource to a platform for application innovation. Now, the challenge is how to make this new cloud simple, secure, agile and programmable. Oh and it has to be cloud agnostic. Now, the real opportunity for customers is to tap into a layer across clouds and data centers that abstracts the underlying complexity of the respective clouds and locations. And it's got to accommodate both mission critical workloads as well as general purpose applications across the spectrum cost, effectively enabling simplicity with minimal labor costs requires infrastructure i. E. Hardware, software, tooling, machine intelligence, AI and partnerships within an ecosystem. It's kind of accommodate a variety of application deployment models like serverless and containers and support for traditional work on VMS. By the way, it also requires a roadmap that will take us well into the next decade because the next 10 years they will not be like the last So why are we here? Well, the cube is covering Cisco's announcements today that connect next generation compute shared memory, intelligent networking and storage resource pools, bringing automation, visibility, application assurance and security to this new decentralized cloud. Now, of course in today's world you wouldn't be considered modern without supporting containers ai and operational tooling that is demanded by forward thinking practitioners. So sit back and enjoy the cubes, special coverage of Cisco's future cloud >>From around the globe. It's the Cube presenting future cloud one event, a world of opportunities brought to you by Cisco. >>We're here with Dejoy Pandey, a VP of emerging tech and incubation at Cisco. V. Joy. Good to see you. Welcome. >>Good to see you as well. Thank you Dave and pleasure to be here. >>So in 2020 we kind of had to redefine the notion of agility when it came to digital business or you know organizations, they had to rethink their concept of agility and business resilience. What are you seeing in terms of how companies are thinking about their operations in this sort of new abnormal context? >>Yeah, I think that's a great question. I think what what we're seeing is that pretty much the application is the center of the universe. And if you think about it, the application is actually driving brand recognition and the brand experience and the brand value. So the example I like to give is think about a banking app uh recovered that did everything that you would expect it to do. But if you wanted to withdraw cash from your bank you would actually have to go to the ATM and punch in some numbers and then look at your screen and go through a process and then finally withdraw cash. Think about what that would have, what what that would do in a post pandemic era where people are trying to go contact less. And so in a situation like this, the digitization efforts that all of these companies are going through and and the modernization of the automation is what is driving brand recognition, brand trust and brand experience. >>Yeah. So I was gonna ask you when I heard you say that, I was gonna say well, but hasn't it always been about the application, but it's different now, isn't it? So I wonder if you talk more about how the application is experience is changing. Yes. As a result of this new digital mandate. But how should organizations think about optimizing those experiences in this new world? >>Absolutely. And I think, yes, it's always been about the application, but it's becoming the center of the universe right now because all interactions with customers and consumers and even businesses are happening through that application. So if the application is unreliable or if the application is not available is untrusted insecure, uh, there's a problem. There's a problem with the brand, with the company and the trust that consumers and customers have with our company. So if you think about an application developer, the weight he or she is carrying on their shoulders is tremendous because you're thinking about rolling features quickly to be competitive. That's the only way to be competitive in this world. You need to think about availability and resiliency. Like you pointed out and experience, you need to think about security and trust. Am I as a customer or consumer willing to put my data in that application? So velocity, availability, Security and trust and all of that depends on the developer. So the experience, the security, the trust, the feature, velocity is what is driving the brand experience now. >>So are those two tensions that say agility and trust, you know, Zero Trust used to be a buzzword now it's a mandate. But are those two vectors counter posed? Can they be merged into one and not affect each other? Does the question makes sense? Right? Security usually handcuffs my speed. But how do you address that? >>Yeah that's a great question. And I think if you think about it today that's the way things are. And if you think about this developer all they want to do is run fast because they want to build those features out and they're going to pick and choose a piece and services that matter to them and build up their app and they want the complexities of the infrastructure and security and trust to be handled by somebody else is not that they don't care about it but they want that abstraction so that is handled by somebody else. And typically within an organization we've seen in the past where this friction between Netapp Sec ops I. T. Tops and and the cloud platform Teams and the developer on one side and these these frictions and these meetings and toil actually take a toll on the developer and that's why companies and apps and developers are not as agile as they would like to be. So I think but it doesn't have to be that way. So I think if there was something that would allow a developer to pick and choose, discover the apis that they would like to use connect those api is in a very simple manner and then be able to scale them out and be able to secure them and in fact not just secure them during the run time when it's deployed. We're right off the back when the fire up that I'd and start developing the application. Wouldn't that be nice? And as you do that, there is a smooth transition between that discovery connectivity and ease of consumption and security with the idea cops. Netapp psych ops teams and see source to ensure that they are not doing something that the organization won't allow them to do in a very seamless manner. >>I want to go back and talk about security but I want to add another complexity before we do that. So for a lot of organizations in the public cloud became a staple of keeping the lights on during the pandemic but it brings new complexities and differences in terms of latency security, which I want to come back to deployment models etcetera. So what are some of the specific networking challenges that you've seen with the cloud native architecture is how are you addressing those? >>Yeah. In fact, if you think about cloud, to me that is a that is a different way of seeing a distributed system. And if you think about a distributed system, what is at the center of the distributed system is the network. So my my favorite comment here is that the network is the wrong time for all distribute systems and modern applications. And that is true because if you think about where things are today, like you said, there's there's cloud assets that a developer might use in the banking example that I gave earlier. I mean if you want to build a contact less app so that you get verified, a customer gets verified on the app. They walk over to the ATM and they were broadcast without touching that ATM. In that kind of an example, you're touching the mobile Rus, let's say U S A P is you're touching cloud API is where the back end might sit. You're touching on primary PS maybe it's an oracle database or a mainframe even where transactional data exists. You're touching branch pipes were the team actually exists and the need for consistency when you withdraw cash and you're carrying all of this and in fact there might be customer data sitting in salesforce somewhere. So it's cloud API is a song premise branch. It's ass is mobile and you need to bring all of these things together and over time you will see more and more of these API is coming from various as providers. So it's not just cloud providers but saas providers that the developer has to use. And so this complexity is very, very real. And this complexity is across the wide open internet. So the application is built across this wide open internet. So the problems of discovery ability, the problems of being able to simply connect these apis and manage the data flow across these apis. The problems of consistency of policy and consumption because all of these areas have their own nuances and what they mean, what the arguments mean and what the A. P. I. Actually means. How do you make it consistent and easy for the developer? That is the networking problem. And that is a problem of building out this network, making traffic engineering easy, making policy easy, making scale out, scale down easy, all of that our networking problems. And so we are solving those problems uh Francisco. >>Yeah the internet is the new private network but it's not so private. So I want to go back to security. I often say that the security model of building a moat, you dig the moat, you get the hardened castle that's just outdated now that the queen is left her castle, I always say it's dangerous out there. And the point is you touched on this, it's it's a huge decentralized system and with distributed apps and data, that notion of perimeter security, it's just no longer valid. So I wonder if you could talk more about how you're thinking about this problem and you definitely address some of that in your earlier comments. But what are you specifically doing to address this and how do you see it evolving? >>Yeah, I mean, that's that's a very important point. I mean, I think if you think about again the wide open internet being the wrong time for all modern applications, what is perimeter security in this uh in this new world? I mean, it's to me it boils down to securing an API because again, going with that running example of this contact lists cash withdrawal feature for a bank, the ap wherever it's it's entre branch SAs cloud, IOS android doesn't matter that FBI is your new security perimeter. And the data object that is trying to access is also the new security perimeter. So if you can secure ap to ap communication and P two data object communication, you should be good. So that is the new frontier. But guess what software is buggy? Everybody's software not saying Cisco software, everybody's Softwares buggy. Uh software is buggy, humans are not reliable and so things mature, things change, things evolve over time. So there needs to be defense in depth. So you need to secure at the API layer had the data object layer, but you also need to secure at every layer below it so that you have good defense and depth if any layer in between is not working out properly. So for us that means ensuring ap to ap communication, not just during long time when the app has been deployed and is running, but during deployment and also during the development life cycle. So as soon as the developer launches an ID, they should be able to figure out that this api is security uses reputable, it has compliant, it is compliant to my to my organization's needs because it is hosted, let's say from Germany and my organization wants appears to be used only if they are being hosted out of Germany so compliance needs and and security needs and reputation. Is it available all the time? Is it secure? And being able to provide that feedback all the time between the security teams and the developer teams in a very seamless real time manner. Yes, again, that's something that we're trying to solve through some of the services that we're trying to produce in san Francisco. >>Yeah, I mean those that layered approach that you're talking about is critical because every layer has, you know, some vulnerability. And so you you've got to protect that with some depth in terms of thinking about security, how should we think about where where Cisco's primary value add is, I mean as parts of the interview has a great security business is growing business, Is it your intention to to to to add value across the entire value chain? I mean obviously you can't do everything so you've got a partner but so has the we think about Cisco's role over the next I'm thinking longer term over the over the next decade. >>Yeah, I mean I think so, we do come in with good strength from the runtime side of the house. So if you think about the security aspects that we haven't played today, uh there's a significant set of assets that we have around user security around around uh with with do and password less. We have significant assets in runtime security. I mean, the entire portfolio that Cisco brings to the table is around one time security, the secure X aspects around posture and policy that will bring to the table. And as you see, Cisco evolve over time, you will see us shifting left. I mean, I know it's an overused term, but that is where security is moving towards. And so that is where api security and data security are moving towards. So learning what we have during runtime because again, runtime is where you learn what's available and that's where you can apply all of the M. L. And I models to figure out what works what doesn't taking those learnings, Taking those catalogs, taking that reputation database and moving it into the deployment and development life cycle and making sure that that's part of that entire they have to deploy to runtime chain is what you will see. Cisco do overtime. >>That's fantastic phenomenal perspective video. Thanks for coming on the cube. Great to have you and look forward to having you again. >>Absolutely. Thank you >>in a moment. We'll talk hybrid cloud applications operations and potential gaps that need to be addressed with costume, Das and VJ Venugopal. You're watching the cube the global leader in high tech coverage. Mhm >>You were cloud. It isn't just a cloud. It's everything flowing through it. It's alive. Yeah, connecting users, applications, data and devices and whether it's cloud, native hybrid or multi cloud, it's more distributed than ever. One company takes you inside, giving you the visibility and the insight you need to take action. >>One company >>has the vision to understand it, all the experience, to securely connect at all on any platform in any environment. So you can work wherever work takes you in a cloud first world between your cloud and being cloud smart, there's a bridge. Cisco the bridge to possible. >>Okay. We're here with costume does, who is the Senior Vice President, General Manager of Cloud and compute at Cisco. And VJ Venugopal, who is the Senior Director for Product Management for cloud compute at Cisco. KTV. J. Good to see you guys welcome. >>Great to see you. Dave to be here. >>Katie, let's talk about cloud you And I last time we're face to face was in Barcelona where we love talking about cloud and I always say to people look, Cisco is not a hyper Scaler, but the big public cloud players, they're like giving you a gift. They spent almost actually over $100 billion last year on Capex. The big four. So you can build on that infrastructure. Cisco is all about hybrid cloud. So help us understand the strategy. There may be how you can leverage that build out and importantly what a customer is telling you they want out of hybrid cloud. >>Yeah, no that's that's that's a perfect question to start with. Dave. So yes. So the hybrid hyper scholars have invested heavily building out their assets. There's a great lot of innovation coming from that space. Um There's also a great innovation set of innovation coming from open source and and that's another source of uh a gift. In fact the I. T. Community. But when I look at my customers they're saying well how do I in the context of my business implement a strategy that takes into consideration everything that I have to manage um in terms of my contemporary work clothes, in terms of my legacy, in terms of everything my developer community wants to do on DEVOPS and really harnessed that innovation that's built in the public cloud, that built an open source that built internally to me, and that naturally leads them down the path of a hybrid cloud strategy. And Siskel's mission is to provide for that imperative, the simplest more power, more powerful platform to deliver hybrid cloud and that platform. Uh It's inter site we've been investing in. Inner side, it's a it's a SAS um service um inner side delivers to them that bridge between their estates of today that were closer today, the need for them to be guardians of enterprise grade resiliency with the agility uh that's needed for the future. The embracing of cloud. Native of new paradigms of deVOPS models, the embracing of innovation coming from public cloud and an open source and bridging those two is what inner side has been doing. That's kind of that's kind of the crux of our strategy. Of course we have the entire portfolio behind it to support any, any version of that, whether that is on prem in the cloud, hybrid, cloud, multi cloud and so forth. >>But but if I understand it correctly from what I heard earlier today, the inter site is really a linchpin of that strategy, is it not? >>It really is and may take a second to totally familiarize those who don't know inner side with what it is. We started building this platform quite a few years back and we we built a ground up to be an immensely scalable SAs, super simple hybrid cloud platform and it's a platform that provides a slew of service is inherently and then on top of that there are suites of services, the sweets of services that are tied to infrastructure, automation. Cisco, as well as Cisco partners. The streets of services that have nothing to do with Cisco um products from a hardware perspective. And it's got to do with more cloud orchestration and cloud native and inner side and its suite of services um continue to kind of increase in pace and velocity of delivery video. Just over the last two quarters we've announced a whole number of things will go a little bit deeper into some of those but they span everything from infrastructure automation to kubernetes and delivering community than service to workload optimization and having visibility into your cloud estate. How much it's costing into your on premise state into your work clothes and how they're performing. It's got integrations with other tooling with both Cisco Abdi uh as well as non Cisco um, assets and then and then it's got a whole slew of capabilities around orchestration because at the end of the day, the job of it is to deliver something that works and works at scale that you can monitor and make sure is resilient and that includes that. That includes a workflow and ability to say, you know, do this and do this and do this. Or it includes other ways of automation, like infrastructure as code and so forth. So it includes self service that so that expand that. But inside the world's simplest hybrid cloud platform, rapidly evolving rapidly delivering new services. And uh we'll talk about some more of those day. >>Great, thank you, Katie VJ. Let's bring you into the discussion. You guys recently made an announcement with the ASCIi corp. I was stoked because even though it seemed like a long time ago, pre covid, I mean in my predictions post, I said, ha, she was a name to watch our data partners. Et are you look at the survey data and they really have become mainstream? You know, particularly we think very important in the whole multi cloud discussion. And as well, they're attractive to customers. They have open source offerings. You can very easily experiment. Smaller organizations can take advantage. But if you want to upgrade to enterprise features like clustering or whatever, you can plug right in. Not a big complicated migration. So a very, very compelling story there. Why is this important? Why is this partnership important to Cisco's customers? Mhm. >>Absolutely. When the spot on every single thing that you said, let me just start by paraphrasing what ambition statement is in the cloud and computer group. Right ambition statement is to enable a cloud operating model for hybrid cloud. And what we mean by that is the ability to have extreme amounts of automation orchestration and observe ability across your hybrid cloud idea operations now. Uh So developers and applications team get a great amount of agility in public clouds and we're on a mission to bring that kind of agility and automation to the private cloud and to the data centers and inter site is a quickie platform and lynchpin to enable that kind of operations. Uh, Cloud like operations in the in the private clouds and the key uh As you rightly said, harsher car is the, you know, they were the inventors of the concept of infrastructure at school and in terra form, they have the world's number one infrastructure as code platform. So it became a natural partnership for Cisco to enter into a technology partnership with harsher card to integrate inter site with hardship cops, terra form to bring the benefits of infrastructure as code to the to hybrid cloud operations. And we've entered into a very tight integration and uh partnership where we allow developers devops teams and infrastructure or administrators to allow the use of infrastructure as code in a SAS delivered manner for both public and private club. So it's a very unique partnership and a unique integration that allows the benefits of cloud managed i E C. To be delivered to hybrid cloud operations. And we've been very happy and proud to be partnering with Russian government shutdown. >>Yeah, Terra form gets very high marks from customers. The a lot of value there. The inner side integration adds to that value. Let's stay on cloud native for a minute. We all talk about cloud native cady was sort of mentioning before you got the the core apps, uh you want to protect those, make sure their enterprise create but they gotta be cool as well for developers. You're connecting to other apps in the cloud or wherever. How are you guys thinking about this? Cloud native trend? What other movies are you making in this regard? >>I mean cloud native is there is one of the paramount I. D. Trends of today and we're seeing massive amounts of adoption of cloud native architecture in all modern applications. Now, Cloud Native has become synonymous with kubernetes these days and communities has emerged as a de facto cloud native platform for modern cloud native app development. Now, what Cisco has done is we have created a brand new SAs delivered kubernetes service that is integrated with inter site, we call it the inter site community service for A. Ks. And this just geared a little over one month ago. Now, what interstate kubernetes service does is it delivers a cloud managed and cloud delivered kubernetes service that can be deployed on any supported target infrastructure. It could be a Cisco infrastructure, it could be a third party infrastructure or it could even be public club. But think of it as kubernetes anywhere delivered as says, managed from inside. It's a very powerful capability that we've just released into inter site to enable the power of communities and clog native to be used to be used anywhere. But today we made a very important aspect because we are today announced the brand new Cisco service mess manager, the Cisco service mesh manager, which is available as an extension to the KS are doing decide basically we see service measures as being the future of networking right in the past we had layer to networking and layer three networking and now with service measures, application networking and layer seven networking is the next frontier of, of networking. But you need to think about networking for the application age very differently how it is managed, how it is deployed. It needs to be ready, developer friendly and developer centric. And so what we've done is we've built out an application networking strategy and built out the service match manager as a very simple way to deliver application networking through the consumers, like like developers and application teams. This is built on an acquisition that Cisco made recently of Banzai Cloud and we've taken the assets of Banzai Cloud and deliver the Cisco service mesh manager as an extension to KS. That brings the promise of future networking and modern networking to application and development gives >>God thank you. BJ. And so Katie, let's let's let's wrap this up. I mean, there was a lot in this announcement today, a lot of themes around openness, heterogeneity and a lot of functionality and value. Give us your final thoughts. >>Absolutely. So, couple of things to close on, first of all, um Inner side is the simplest, most powerful hybrid cloud platform out there. It enables that that cloud operating model that VJ talked about, but enables that across cloud. So it's sad, it's relatively easy to get into it and give it a spin so that I'd highly encouraged anybody who's not familiar with it to try it out and anybody who is familiar with it to look at it again, because they're probably services in there that you didn't notice or didn't know last time you looked at it because we're moving so fast. So that's the first thing. The second thing I close with is um, we've been talking about this bridge that's kind of bridging, bridging uh your your on prem your open source, your cloud estates. And it's so important to to make that mental leap because uh in past generation, we used to talk about integrating technologies together and then with public cloud, we started talking about move to public cloud, but it's really how do we integrate, how do we integrate all of that innovation that's coming from the hyper scale, is everything they're doing to innovate superfast, All of that innovation is coming from open source, all of that innovation that's coming from from companies around the world, including Cisco, How do we integrate that to deliver an outcome? Because at the end of the day, if you're a cloud of Steam, if you're an idea of Steam, your job is to deliver an outcome and our mission is to make it super simple for you to do that. That's the mission we're on and we're hoping that everybody that's excited as we are about how simple we made that. >>Great, thank you a lot in this announcement today, appreciate you guys coming back on and help us unpack you know, some of the details. Thank thanks so much. Great having you. >>Thank you >>Dave in a moment. We're gonna come back and talk about disruptive technologies and futures in the age of hybrid cloud with Vegas Rattana and James leach. You're watching the cube, the global leader in high tech coverage. >>What if your server box >>wasn't a box at >>all? What if it could do anything run anything? >>Be any box you >>need with massive scale precision and intelligence managed and optimized from the cloud integrated with all your clouds, private, public or hybrid. So you can build whatever you need today and tomorrow. The potential of this box is unlimited. Unstoppable unseen ever before. Unbox the future with Cisco UCS X series powered by inter site >>Cisco. >>The bridge to possible. Yeah >>we're here with Vegas Rattana who's the director of product management for Pcs at Cisco. And James Leach is the director of business development for U. C. S. At the Cisco as well. We're gonna talk about computing in the age of hybrid cloud. Welcome gentlemen. Great to see you. >>Thank you. >>Thank you because let's start with you and talk about a little bit about computing architectures. We know that they're evolving. They're supporting new data intensive and other workloads especially as high performance workload requirements. What's this guy's point of view on all this? I mean specifically interested in your thoughts on fabrics. I mean it's kind of your wheelhouse, you've got accelerators. What are the workloads that are driving these evolving technologies and how how is it impacting customers? What are you seeing? >>Sure. First of all, very excited to be here today. You're absolutely right. The pace of innovation and foundational platform ingredients have just been phenomenal in recent years. The fabric that's writers that drives the processing power, the Golden city all have been evolving just an amazing place and the peace will only pick up further. But ultimately it is all about applications and the way applications leverage those innovations. And we do see applications evolving quite rapidly. The new classes of applications are evolving to absorb those innovations and deliver much better business values. Very, very exciting time step. We're talking about the impact on the customers. Well, these innovations have helped them very positively. We do see significant challenges in the data center with the point product based approach of delivering these platforms, innovations to the applications. What has happened is uh, these innovations today are being packaged as point point products to meet the needs of a specific application and as you know, the different applications have no different needs. Some applications need more to abuse, others need more memory, yet others need, you know, more course, something different kinds of fabrics. As a result, if you walk into a data center today, it is very common to see many different point products in the data center. This creates a manageability challenge. Imagine the aspect of managing, you know, several different form factors want you to you purpose built servers. The variety of, you know, a blade form factor, you know, this reminds me of the situation we had before smartphones arrived. You remember the days when you when we used to have a GPS device for navigation system, a cool music device for listening to the music. A phone device for making a call camera for taking the photos right? And we were all excited about it. It's when a smart phones the right that we realized all those cool innovations could be delivered in a much simpler, much convenient and easy to consume through one device. And you know, I could uh, that could completely transform our experience. So we see the customers were benefiting from these innovations to have a way to consume those things in a much more simplistic way than they are able to go to that. >>And I like to look, it's always been about the applications. But to your point, the applications are now moving in a much faster pace. The the customer experience is expectation is way escalated. And when you combine all these, I love your analogy there because because when you combine all these capabilities, it allows us to develop new Applications, new capabilities, new customer experiences. So that's that I always say the next 10 years, they ain't gonna be like the last James Public Cloud obviously is heavily influencing compute design and and and customer operating models. You know, it's funny when the public cloud first hit the market, everyone we were swooning about low cost standard off the shelf servers in storage devices, but it quickly became obvious that customers needed more. So I wonder if you could comment on this. How are the trends that we've seen from the hyper scale, Is how are they filtering into on prem infrastructure and maybe, you know, maybe there's some differences there as well that you could address. >>Absolutely. So I'd say, first of all, quite frankly, you know, public cloud has completely changed the expectations of how our customers want to consume, compute, right? So customers, especially in a public cloud environment, they've gotten used to or, you know, come to accept that they should consume from the application out, right? They want a very application focused view, a services focused view of the world. They don't want to think about infrastructure, right? They want to think about their application, they wanna move outward, Right? So this means that the infrastructure basically has to meet the application where it lives. So what that means for us is that, you know, we're taking a different approach. We're we've decided that we're not going to chase this single pane of glass view of the world, which, frankly, our customers don't want, they don't want a single pane of glass. What they want is a single operating model. They want an operating model that's similar to what they can get at the public with the public cloud, but they wanted across all of their cloud options they wanted across private cloud across hybrid cloud options as well. So what that means is they don't want to just consume infrastructure services. They want all of their cloud services from this operating model. So that means that they may want to consume infrastructure services for automation Orchestration, but they also need kubernetes services. They also need virtualization services, They may need terror form workload optimization. All of these services have to be available, um, from within the operating model, a consistent operating model. Right? So it doesn't matter whether you're talking about private cloud, hybrid cloud anywhere where the application lives. It doesn't matter what matters is that we have a consistent model that we think about it from the application out. And frankly, I'd say this has been the stumbling block for private cloud. Private cloud is hard, right. This is why it hasn't been really solved yet. This is why we had to take a brand new approach. And frankly, it's why we're super excited about X series and inter site as that operating model that fits the hybrid cloud better than anything else we've seen >>is acute. First, first time technology vendor has ever said it's not about a single pane of glass because I've been hearing for decades, we're gonna deliver a single pane of glass is going to be seamless and it never happens. It's like a single version of the truth. It's aspirational and, and it's just not reality. So can we stay in the X series for a minute James? Uh, maybe in this context, but in the launch that we saw today was like a fire hose of announcements. So how does the X series fit into the strategy with inter site and hybrid cloud and this operating model that you're talking about? >>Right. So I think it goes hand in hand, right. Um the two pieces go together very well. So we have uh, you know, this idea of a single operating model that is definitely something that our customers demand, right? It's what we have to have, but at the same time we need to solve the problems of the cost was talking about before we need a single infrastructure to go along with that single operating model. So no longer do we need to have silos within the infrastructure that give us different operating models are different sets of benefits when you want infrastructure that can kind of do all of those configurations, all those applications. And then, you know, the operating model is very important because that's where we abstract the complexity that could come with just throwing all that technology at the infrastructure so that, you know, this is, you know, the way that we think about is the data center is not centered right? It's no longer centered applications live everywhere. Infrastructure lives everywhere. And you know, we need to have that consistent operating model but we need to do things within the infrastructure as well to take full advantage. Right? So we want all the sas benefits um, of a Ci CD model of, you know, the inter site can bring, we want all that that proactive recommendation engine with the power of A I behind it. We want the connected support experience went all of that. They want to do it across the single infrastructure and we think that that's how they tie together, that's why one or the other doesn't really solve the problem. But both together, that's why we're here. That's why we're super excited. >>So Vegas, I make you laugh a little bit when I was an analyst at I D C, I was deep in infrastructure and then when I left I was doing, I was working with application development heads and like you said, uh infrastructure, it was just a, you know, roadblock but but so the target speakers with Cisco announced UCS a decade ago, I totally missed it. I didn't understand it. I thought it was Cisco getting into the traditional server business and it wasn't until I dug in then I realized that your vision was really to transform infrastructure, deployment and management and change them all. I was like, okay, I got that wrong uh but but so let's talk about the the ecosystem and the joint development efforts that are going on there, X series, how does it fit into this, this converged infrastructure business that you've, you've built and grown with partners, you got storage partners like Netapp and Pure, you've got i SV partners in the ecosystem. We see cohesive, he has been a while since we we hung out with all these companies at the Cisco live hopefully next year, but tell us what's happening in that regard. >>Absolutely, I'm looking forward to seeing you in the Cisco live next year. You know, they have absolutely you brought up a very good point. You see this is about the ecosystem that it brings together, it's about making our customers bring up the entire infrastructure from the core foundational hardware all the way to the application level so that they can, you know, go off and running pretty quick. The converse infrastructure has been one of the corners 2.5 hour of the strategy, as you pointed out in the last decade. And and and I'm I'm very glad to share that converse infrastructure continues to be a very popular architecture for several enterprise applications. Seven today, in fact, it is the preferred architecture for mission critical applications where performance resiliency latency are the critical requirements there almost a de facto standards for large scale deployments of virtualized and business critical data bases and so forth with X series with our partnerships with our Stories partners. Those architectures will absolutely continue and will get better. But in addition as a hybrid cloud world, so we are now bringing in the benefits of canvas in infrastructure uh to the world of hybrid cloud will be supporting the hybrid cloud applications now with the CIA infrastructure that we have built together with our strong partnership with the Stories partners to deliver the same benefits to the new ways applications as well. >>Yeah, that's what customers want. They want that cloud operating model. Right, go ahead please. >>I was going to say, you know, the CIA model will continue to thrive. It will transition uh it will expand the use cases now for the new use cases that were beginning to, you know, say they've absolutely >>great thank you for that. And James uh have said earlier today, we heard this huge announcement, um a lot of lot of parts to it and we heard Katie talk about this initiative is it's really computing built for the next decade. I mean I like that because it shows some vision and you've got a road map that you've thought through the coming changes in workloads and infrastructure management and and some of the technology that you can take advantage of beyond just uh, you know, one or two product cycles. So, but I want to understand what you've done here specifically that you feel differentiates you from other competitive architectures in the industry. >>Sure. You know that's a great question. Number one. Number two, um I'm frankly a little bit concerned at times for for customers in general for our customers customers in general because if you look at what's in the market, right, these rinse and repeat systems that were effectively just rehashes of the same old design, right? That we've seen since before 2000 and nine when we brought you C. S to market these are what we're seeing over and over and over again. That's that's not really going to work anymore frankly. And I think that people are getting lulled into a false sense of security by seeing those things continually put in the market. We rethought this from the ground up because frankly future proofing starts now, right? If you're not doing it right today, future proofing isn't even on your radar because you're not even you're not even today proved. So we re thought the entire chassis, the entire architecture from the ground up. Okay. If you look at other vendors, if you look at other solutions in the market, what you'll see is things like management inside the chassis. That's a great example, daisy chaining them together >>like who >>needs that? Who wants that? Like that kind of complexity is first of all, it's ridiculous. Um, second of all, um, if you want to manage across clouds, you have to do it from the cloud, right. It's just common sense. You have to move management where it can have the scale and the scope that it needs to impact your entire domain, your world, which is much larger now than it was before. We're talking about true hybrid cloud here. Right. So we had to solve certain problems that existed in the traditional architecture. You know, I can't tell you how many times I heard you talk about the mid plane is a great example. You know, the mid plane and a chastity is a limiting factor. It limits us on how much we can connect or how much bandwidth we have available to the chassis. It limits us on air flow and other things. So how do you solve that problem? Simple. Just get rid of it. Like we just we took it out, right. It's not no longer a problem. We designed an architecture that doesn't need it. It doesn't rely on it. No forklift upgrades. So, as we start moving down the path of needing liquid cooling or maybe we need to take advantage of some new, high performance, low latency fabrics. We can do that with almost. No problem at all. Right, So, we don't have any forklift upgrades. Park your forklift on the side. You won't need it anymore because you can upgrade gradually. You can move along as technologies come into existence that maybe don't even exist. They they may not even be on our radar today to take advantage of. But I like to think of these technologies, they're really important to our customers. These are, you know, we can call them disruptive technologies. The reality is that we don't want to disrupt our customers with these technologies. We want to give them these technologies so they can go out and be disruptive themselves. Right? And this is the way that we've designed this from the ground up to be easy to consume and to take advantage of what we know about today and what's coming in the future that we may not even know about. So we think this is a way to give our customers that ultimate capability flexibility and and future proofing. >>I like I like that phrase True hybrid cloud. It's one that we've used for years and but to me this is all about that horizontal infrastructure that can support that vision of what true hybrid cloud is. You can support the mission critical applications. You can you can develop on the system and you can support a variety of workload. You're not locked into one narrow stovepipe and that does have legs, Vegas and James. Thanks so much for coming on the program. Great to see you. >>Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. >>When we return shortly thomas Shiva who leads Cisco's data center group will be here and thomas has some thoughts about the transformation of networking I. T. Teams. You don't wanna miss what he has to say. You're watching the cube. The global leader in high tech company. Okay, >>mm. Mhm, mm. Okay. Mhm. Yeah. Mhm. Yeah. >>Mhm. Yes. Yeah. Okay. We're here with thomas Shiva who is the Vice president of Product Management, A K A VP of all things data center, networking STN cloud. You name it in that category. Welcome thomas. Good to see you again. >>Hey Sam. Yes. Thanks for having me on. >>Yeah, it's our pleasure. Okay, let's get right into observe ability. When you think about observe ability, visibility, infrastructure monitoring problem resolution across the network. How does cloud change things? In other words, what are the challenges that networking teams are currently facing as they're moving to the cloud and trying to implement hybrid cloud? >>Yeah. Yeah, visibility as always is very, very important. And it's quite frankly, it's not just it's not just the networking team is actually the application team to write. And as you pointed out, the underlying impetus to what's going on here is the data center is where the data is. And I think we set us a couple years back and really what happens the applications are going to be deployed uh in different locations, right. Whether it's in a public cloud, whether it's on prayer, uh, and they are built differently right there, built as microservices, they might actually be distributed as well at the same application. And so what that really means is you need as an operator as well as actually a user better visibility. Where are my pieces and you need to be able to correlate between where the app is and what the underlying network is that is in place in these different locations. So you have actually a good knowledge while the app is running so fantastic or sometimes not. So I think that's that's really the problem statement. What what we're trying to go afterwards, observe ability. >>Okay, and let's double click on that. So a lot of customers tell me that you gotta stare at log files until your eyes bleed and you gotta bring in guys with lab coats who have phds to figure all this stuff out. So, so you just described, it's getting more complex, but at the same time you have to simplify things. So how how are you doing that, >>correct? So what we basically have done is we have this fantastic product that that is called 1000 Ice. And so what this does is basically as the name, which I think is a fantastic fantastic name. You have these sensors everywhere. Um, and you can have a good correlation on uh links between if I run from a site to aside from a site to a cloud, from a cloud to cloud and you basically can measure what is the performance of these links. And so what we're, what we're doing here is we're actually extending the footprint of these thousands agent. Right? Instead of just having uh inversion machine clouds, we are now embedding them with the Cisco network devices. Right? We announced this with the catalyst 9000 and we're extending this now to our 8000 catalyst product line for the for the SD were in products as well as to the data center products the next line. Um and so what you see is is, you know, half a saying, you have 1000 eyes, you get a million insights and you get a billion dollar of improvements uh for how your applications run. And this is really uh, the power of tying together the footprint of where the network is with the visibility, what is going on. So you actually know the application behavior that is attached to this network. >>I see. So okay. So as the cloud evolves and expands it connects your actually enabling 1000 eyes to go further, not just confined within a single data center location, but out to the network across clouds, et cetera, >>correct. Wherever the network is, you're going to have 1000 I sensor and you can't bring this together and you can quite frankly pick if you want to say, hey, I have my application in public cloud provider, a uh, domain one and I have another one domain to, I can't do monitor that link. I can also monitor have a user that has a campus location or branch location. I kind of put an agent there and then I can monitor the connectivity from that branch location all the way to the let's say corporations that data centre, our headquarter or to the cloud. And I can have these probes and just we have visibility and saying, hey, if there's a performance, I know where the issue is and then I obviously can use all the other foods that we have to address those. >>All right, let's talk about the cloud operating model. Everybody tells us it's really the change in the model that drives big numbers in terms of R. O. I. And I want you to maybe address how you're bringing automation and devops to this world of of hybrid and specifically how is Cisco enabling I. T. Organizations to move to a cloud operating model? Is that cloud definition expands? >>Yeah, no that's that's another interesting topic beyond the observe ability. So really, really what we're seeing and this is going on for uh I want to say a couple of years now, it's really this transition from operating infrastructure as a networking team more like a service like what you would expect from a cloud provider. Right? It's really around the network team offering services like a cloud provided us. And that's really what the meaning is of cloud operating model. Right? But this is infrastructure running your own data center where that's linking that infrastructure was whatever runs on the public club is operating and like a cloud service. And so we are on this journey for why? So one of the examples uh then we have removing some of the control software assets, the customers that they can deploy on prayer uh to uh an instance that they can deploy in a cloud provider and just busy, insane. She ate things there and then just run it that way. Right. And so the latest example for this is what we have our identity service engine that is now limited availability available on AWS and will become available in mid this year, both in Italy as unusual as a service. You can just go to market place, you can load it there and now you create, you can start running your policy control in a cloud, managing your access infrastructure in your data center, in your campus wherever you want to do it. And so that's just one example of how we see our customers network operations team taking advantage of a cloud operating model and basically employing their, their tools where they need them and when they need them. >>So what's the scope of, I hope I'm saying it right. Ice, right. I see. I think it's called ice. What's the scope of that like for instance, turn in effect my or even, you know, address simplify my security approach. >>Absolutely. That's now coming to what is the beauty of the product itself? Yes. What you can do is really is that there's a lot of people talking about else. How do I get to zero trust approach to networking? How do I get to a much more dynamic, flexible segmentation in my infrastructure. Again, whether this is only campus X as well as a data center and Ice help today, you can use this as a point to define your policies and then any connect from there. Right. In this particular case we would instant Ice in the cloud as a software load. You now can connect and say, hey, I want to manage and program my network infrastructure and my data center on my campus, going to the respective control over this DNA Center for campus or whether it is the A. C. I. Policy controller. And so yes, what you get as an effect out of this is a very elegant way to automatically manage in one place. What is my policy and then drive the right segmentation in your network infrastructure? >>zero. Trust that, you know, it was pre pandemic. It was kind of a buzzword. Now it's become a mandate. I wonder if we could talk about right. I mean I wonder if you talk about cloud native apps, you got all these developers that are working inside organizations. They're maintaining legacy apps. They're connecting their data to systems in the cloud there, sharing that data. I need these developers, they're rapidly advancing their skill sets. How is Cisco enabling its infrastructure to support this world of cloud? Native making infrastructure more responsive and agile for application developers? >>Yeah. So, you know, we're going to the top of his visibility, we talked about the operating model, how how our network operators actually want to use tools going forward. Now, the next step to this is it's not just the operator. How do they actually, where do they want to put these tools, how they, how they interact with these tools as well as quite frankly as how, let's say, a devops team on application team or Oclock team also wants to take advantage of the program ability of the underlying network. And this is where we're moving into this whole cloud native discussion, right? Which is really two angles, that is the cloud native way, how applications are being built. And then there is the cloud native way, how you interact with infrastructure. Right? And so what we have done is we're a putting in place the on ramps between clouds and then on top of it we're exposing for all these tools, a P I S that can be used in leverage by standard uh cloud tools or uh cloud native tools. Right. And one example or two examples we always have and again, we're on this journey for a while is both answerable uh script capabilities that exist from red hat as well as uh Ashitaka from capabilities that you can orchestrate across infrastructure to drive infrastructure, automation and what what really stands behind it is what either the networking operations team wants to do or even the ap team. They want to be able to describe the application as a code and then drive automatically or programmatically in situation of infrastructure needed for that application. And so what you see us doing is providing all these capability as an interface for all our network tools. Right. Whether it's this ice that I just mentioned, whether this is our D. C. And controllers in the data center, uh whether these are the controllers in the in the campus for all of those, we have cloud native interfaces. So operator or uh devops team can actually interact directly with that infrastructure the way they would do today with everything that lives in the cloud, with everything how they brought the application. >>This is key. You can't even have the conversation of op cloud operating model that includes and comprises on prem without programmable infrastructure. So that's that's very important. Last question, thomas our customers actually using this, they made the announcement today. There are there are there any examples of customers out there doing this? >>We do have a lot of customers out there that are moving down the past and using the D. D. Cisco high performance infrastructure, but also on the compute side as well as on an exercise one of the customers. Uh and this is like an interesting case. It's Rakuten uh record and is a large tackle provider, a mobile five G. Operator uh in Japan and expanding and is in different countries. Uh and so people something oh, cloud, you must be talking about the public cloud provider, the big the big three or four. But if you look at it, there's a lot of the tackle service providers are actually cloud providers as well and expanding very rapidly. And so we're actually very proud to work together with with Rakuten and help them building a high performance uh, data and infrastructure based on hard gig and actually phone a gig uh to drive their deployment to. It's a five G mobile cloud infrastructure, which is which is uh where the whole the whole world where traffic is going. And so it's really exciting to see this development and see the power of automation visibility uh together with the high performance infrastructure becoming reality and delivering actually services, >>you have some great points you're making there. Yes, you have the big four clouds, your enormous, but then you have a lot of actually quite large clouds. Telcos that are either approximate to those clouds or they're in places where those hyper scholars may not have a presence and building out their own infrastructure. So so that's a great case study uh thomas, hey, great having you on. Thanks so much for spending some time with us. >>Yeah, same here. I appreciate it. Thanks a lot. >>I'd like to thank Cisco and our guests today V Joy, Katie VJ, viscous James and thomas for all your insights into this evolving world of hybrid cloud, as we said at the top of the next decade will be defined by an entirely new set of rules. And it's quite possible things will evolve more quickly because the cloud is maturing and has paved the way for a new operating model where everything is delivered as a service, automation has become a mandate because we just can't keep throwing it labor at the problem anymore. And with a I so much more as possible in terms of driving operational efficiencies, simplicity and support of the workloads that are driving the digital transformation that we talk about all the time. This is Dave Volonte and I hope you've enjoyed today's program. Stay Safe, be well and we'll see you next time.