>> Hello friends and welcome back to Fabulous Las Vegas, Nevada. We are here at AWS re:Invent in the heat of day three. Very exciting time. My name is Savannah Peterson, joined with John Furrier here on theCUBE. John, what's your, what's your big hot take from the day? Just from today. >> So right now the velocity of content is continuing to flow on theCUBE. Thank you, everyone, for watching. The security conversations. Also, the cost tuning of the cloud kind of vibe is going on. You're hearing that with the looming recession, but if you look at the show it's the bulk of the keynote time spent talking is on data and security together. So Security, Security Lake, Amazon, they continue to talk about security. This next segment's going to be awesome. We have a multi-, eight-time CUBE alumni coming back and great conversation about security. I'm looking forward to this. >> Alumni VIP, I know, it's so great. Actually, both of these guests have been on theCUBE before so please welcome Dan and Haiyan. Thank you both for being here from F5. How's the show going? You're both smiling and we're midway through day three. Good? >> It's so exciting to be here with you all and it's a great show. >> Awesome. Dan, you having a good time too? >> It's wearing me out. I'm having a great time. (laughter) >> It's okay to be honest. It's okay to be honest. It's wearing out our vocal cords for sure up here, but it is definitely a great time. Haiyan, can you tell me a little bit about F5 just in case the audience isn't familiar? >> Sure, so F5 we specialize in application delivery and security. So our mission is to deliver secure and optimize any applications, any APIs, anywhere. >> I can imagine you have a few customers in the house. >> Absolutely. >> Yeah, that's awesome. So in terms of a problem that, well an annoyance that we've all had, bots. We all want the anti-bots. You have a unique solution to this. How are you helping AWS customers with bots? Let's send it to you. >> Well we, we collect client side signals from all devices. We might study how it does floating point math or how it renders emojis. We analyze those signals and we can make a real time determination if the traffic is from a bot or not. And if it's from a bot, we could take mitigating action. And if it's not, we just forward it on to origin. So client side signals are really important. And then the second aspect of bot protection I think is understanding that bot's retool. They become more sophisticated. >> Savannah: They learn. >> They learn. >> They unfortunately learn as well. >> Exactly, yeah. So you have to have a second stage what we call retrospective analysis where you're looking over all the historical transactions, looking for anything that may have been missed by a realtime defense and then updating that stage one that real time defense to deal with the newly discovered threat. >> Let's take a step back for a second. I want to just set the table in the context for the bot conversation. Bots, automation, that's, people know like spam bots but Amazon has seen the bot networks develop. Can you scope the magnitude and the size of the problem of bots? What is the problem? And give a size of what this magnitude of this is. >> Sure, one thing that's important to realize is not all bots are bad. Okay? Some bots are good and you want to identify the automation from those bots and allow listed so you don't interfere with what they're doing. >> I can imagine that's actually tricky. >> It is, it is. Absolutely. Yeah. >> Savannah: Nuanced. >> Yeah, but the bad bots, these are the ones that are attempting credential stuffing attacks, right? They're trying username password pairs against login forms. And because of consumer habits to reuse usernames and passwords, they end up taking over a lot of accounts. But those are the bookends. There are all sorts of types of bots in between those two bookends. Some are just nuisance, like limited time offer bots. You saw some of this in the news recently with Ticketmaster. >> That's a spicy story. >> Yeah, it really is. And it's the bots that is causing that problem. They use automation to buy all these concert tickets or sneakers or you know, any limited time offer project. And then they resell those on the secondary market. And we've done analysis on some of these groups and they're making millions of dollars. It isn't something they're making like 1200 bucks on. >> I know Amazon doesn't like to talk about this but the cloud for its double edged sword that it is for all the greatness of the agility spinning up resources bots have been taking advantage of that same capability to hide, change, morph. You've seen the matrix when the bots attacked the ship. They come out of nowhere. But Amazon actually has seen the bot problem for a long time, has been working on it. Talk about that kind of evolution of how this problem's being solved. What's Amazon doing about, how do you guys help out? >> Yeah, well we have this CloudFront connector that allows all Amazon CloudFront customers to be able to leverage this technology very, very quickly. So what historically was available only to like, you know the Fortune 500 at most of the global 2000 is now available to all AWS customers who are using CloudFront just by really you can explain how do they turn it on in CloudFront? >> Yeah. So I mean CloudFront technologies like that is so essential to delivering the digital experience. So what we do is we do a integration natively. And so if your CloudFront customers and you can just use our bot defense solution by turning on, you know, that traffic. So go through our API inspection, go through our bot inspection and you can benefit from all the other efficiencies that we acquired through serving the highest and the top institutions in the world. >> So just to get this clarification, this is a super important point. You said it's native to the service. I don't have to bolt it on? Is it part of the customer experience? >> Yeah, we basically built the integration. So if you're already a CloudFront customer and you have the ability to turn on our bot solutions without having to do the integration yourself. >> Flick a switch and it's on. >> Haiyan: Totally. >> Pretty much. >> Haiyan: Yeah. >> That's how I want to get rid of all the spam in my life. We've talked a lot about the easy button. I would also like the anti-spam button if we're >> Haiyan: 100% >> Well we were talking before you came on camera that there's a potentially a solution you can sit charge. There are techniques. >> Yeah. Yeah. We were talking about the spam emails and I thought they just charge, you know 10th of a penny for every sent email. It wouldn't affect me very much. >> What's the, are people on that? You guys are on this but I mean this is never going to stop. We're going to see the underbelly of the web, the dark web continue to do it. People are harvesting past with the dark web using bots that go in test challenge credentials. I mean, it's just happening. It's never going to stop. What's, is it going to be that cat and mouse game? Are we going to see solutions? What's the, when are we going to get some >> Well it's certainly not a cat and mouse game for F5 customers because we win that battle every time. But for enterprises who are still battling the bots as a DIY project, then yes, it's just going to be a cat and mouse. They're continuing to block by IP, you know, by rate limiting. >> Right, which is so early 2000's. >> Exactly. >> If we're being honest. >> Exactly. And the attackers, by the way, the attackers are now coming from hundreds of thousands or even millions of IP addresses and some IPs are using one time. >> Yeah, I mean it seems like such an easy problem to circumnavigate. And still be able to get in. >> What are I, I, let's stick here for a second. What are some of the other trends that you're seeing in how people are defending if they're not using you or just in general? >> Yeah, maybe I'll add to to that. You know, when we think about the bot problem we also sort of zoom out and say, Hey, bot is only one part of the problem when you think about the entire digital experience the customer experiencing, right? So at F5 we actually took a more holistic sort of way to say, well it's about protecting the apps and applications and the APIs that's powering all of those. And we're thinking not only the applications APIs we're thinking the infrastructure that those API workloads are running. So one of the things we're sharing since we acquired Threat Stack, we have been busy doing integrations with our distributed cloud services and we're excited. In a couple weeks you will hear announcement of the integrated solution for our application infrastructure protection. So that's just another thing. >> On that Threat Stack, does that help with that data story too? Because it's a compliance aspect as well. >> Yeah, it helps with the telemetries, collecting more telemetries, the data story but is also think about applications and APIs. You can only be as secure as the infrastructure you're running on it, right? So the infrastructure protection is a key part of application security. And the other dimension is not only we can help with the credentials, staffing and, and things but it's actually thinking about the customer's top line. Because at the end of the day when all this inventory are being siphoned out the customer won't be happy. So how do we make sure their loyal customers have the right experience so that can improve their top line and not just sort of preventing the bots. So there's a lot of mission that we're on. >> Yeah, that surprise and delight in addition to that protection. >> 100% >> If I could talk about the evolution of an engagement with F5. We first go online, deploy the client side signals I described and take care of all the bad bots. Okay. Mitigate them. Allow list all the good bots, now you're just left with human traffic. We have other client side signals that'll identify the bad humans among the good humans and you could deal with them. And then we have additional client side signals that allow us to do silent continuous authentication of your good customers extending their sessions so they don't have to endure the friction of logging in over and over and over. >> Explain that last one again because I think that was, that's, I didn't catch that. >> Yeah. So right now we require a customer to enter in their username and password before we believe it's them. But we had a customer who a lot of their customers were struggling to log in. So we did analysis and we realized that our client side signals, you know of all those that are struggling to log in, we're confident like 40% of 'em are known good customers based on some of these signals. Like they're doing floating point math the way they always have. They're rendering emojis the way they always have all these clients that signals are the same. So why force that customer to log in again? >> Oh yeah. And that's such a frustrating user experience. >> So true. >> I actually had that thought earlier today. How many time, how much of my life am I going to spend typing my email address? Just that in itself. Then I could crawl back under the covers but >> With the biometric Mac, I forget my passwords. >> Or how about solving CAPTCHA's? How fun is that? >> How many pictures have a bus? >> I got one wrong the other day because I had to pick all the street signs. I got it wrong and I called a Russian human click farm and figured out why was I getting it wrong? And they said >> I love that you went down this rabbit hole deeply. >> You know why that's not a street sign. That's a road sign, they told me. >> That's the secret backdoor. >> Oh well yeah. >> Talk about your background because you have fascinating background coming from law enforcement and you're in this kind of role. >> He could probably tell us about our background. >> They expunge those records. I'm only kidding. >> 25, 30 years in working in local, state and federal law enforcement and intelligence among those an FBI agent and a CIA cyber operations officer. And most people are drawn to that because it's interesting >> Three letter agencies can get an eyebrow raise. >> But I'll be honest, my early, early in my career I was a beat cop and that changed my life. That really did, that taught me the importance of an education, taught me the criminal mindset. So yeah, people are drawn to the FBI and CIA background, but I really value the >> So you had a good observation eye for kind of what, how this all builds out. >> It all kind of adds up, you know, constantly fighting the bad guys, whether they're humans, bots, a security threat from a foreign nation. >> Well learning their mindset and learning what motivates them, what their objectives are. It is really important. >> Reading the signals >> You don't mind slipping into the mind of a criminal. It's a union rule. >> Right? It actually is. >> You got to put your foot and your hands in and walk through their shoes as they say. >> That's right. >> The bot networks though, I want to get into, is not it sounds like it's off the cup but they're highly organized networks. >> Dan: They are. >> Talk about the aspect of the franchises or these bots behind them, how they're financed, how they use the money that they make or ransomware, how they collect, what's the enterprise look like? >> Unfortunately, a lot of the nodes on a botnet are now just innocent victim computers using their home computers. They can subscribe to a service and agree to let their their CPU be used while they're not using it in exchange for a free VPN service, say. So now bad actors not, aren't just coming from you know, you know, rogue cloud providers who accept Bitcoin as payment, they're actually coming from residential IPs, which is making it even more difficult for the security teams to identify. It's one thing when it's coming from- >> It's spooky. I'm just sitting here kind of creeped out too. It's these unknown hosts, right? It's like being a carrier. >> You have good traffic coming from it during the day. >> Right, it appears normal. >> And then malicious traffic coming from it. >> Nefarious. >> My last question is your relationship with Amazon. I'll see security center piece of this re:Invent. It's always been day zero as they say but really it's the security data lake. A lot of gaps are being filled in the products. You kind of see that kind of filling out. Talk about the relationship with F5 and AWS. How you guys are working together, what's the status? >> We've been long-term partners and the latest release the connector for CloudFront is just one of the joint work that we did together and try to, I think, to Dan's point, how do we make those technology that was built for the very sophisticated big institutions to be available for all the CloudFront customers? So that's really what's exciting. And we also leverage a lot of the technology. You talked about the data and our entire solution are very data driven, as you know, is automation. If you don't use data, you don't use analytics, you don't use AI, it's hard to really sort of win that war. So a lot of our stuff, it's very data driven >> And the benefit to customers is what? Access? >> The customer's access, the customer's top line. We talked about, you know, like how we're really bringing better experiences at the end of the day. F5's mission is try to bring a better digital world to life. >> And it's also collaborative. We've had a lot of different stories here on on the set about companies collaborating. You're obviously collaborating and I also love that we're increasing access, not just narrowing this focus for the larger companies at scale already, but making sure that these companies starting out, a lot of the founders probably milling around on the floor right now can prevent this and ensure that user experience for their customers. throughout the course of their product development. I think it's awesome. So we have a new tradition here on theCUBE at re:Invent, and since you're alumni, I feel like you're maybe going to be a little bit better at this than some of the rookies. Not that rookies can't be great, but you're veterans. So I feel strong about this. We are looking for your 30-second Instagram reel hot take. Think of it like your sizzle of thought leadership from the show this year. So eventually eight more visits from now we can compile them into a great little highlight reel of all of your sound bites over the evolution of time. Who wants to give us their hot take first? >> Dan? >> Yeah, sure. >> Savannah: You've been elected, I mean you are an agent. A former special agent >> I guess I want everybody to know the bot problem is much worse than they think it is. We go in line and we see 98, 99% of all login traffic is from malicious bots. And so it is not a DIY project. >> 98 to 99%? That means only 1% of traffic is actually legitimate? >> That's right. >> Holy moly. >> I just want to make sure that everybody heard you say that. >> That's right. And it's very common. Didn't happen once or twice. It's happened a lot of times. And when it's not 99 it's 60 or it's 58, it's high. >> And that's costing a lot too. >> Yes, it is. And it's not just in fraud, but think about charges that >> Savannah: I think of cloud service providers >> Cost associated with transactions, you know, fraud tools >> Savannah: All of it. >> Yes. Sims, all those things. There's a lot of costs associated with that much automation. So the client side signals and multi-stage defense is what you need to deal with it. It's not a DIY project. >> Bots are not DIY. How would you like to add to that? >> It's so hard to add to that but I would say cybersecurity is a team sport and is a very data driven solution and we really need to sort of team up together and share intelligence, share, you know, all the things we know so we can be better at this. It's not a DIY project. We need to work together. >> Fantastic, Dan, Haiyan, so great to have you both back on theCUBE. We look forward to seeing you again for our next segment and I hope that the two of you have really beautiful rest of your show. Thank you all for tuning into a fantastic afternoon of coverage here from AWS re:Invent. We are live from Las Vegas, Nevada and don't worry we have more programming coming up for you later today with John Furrier. I'm Savannah Peterson. This is theCUBE, the leader in high tech coverage.

>>You want us to >>Look at that camera? Okay. We're back in Boston, everybody. This is Dave ante for the cube, the leader in enterprise tech coverage. This is reinforce 2022 AWS's big security conference. We're here in Boston, the convention center where the cube started in 2010. Highend song is here. She's head of security and distributed cloud services at F five. And she's joined by Dan woods. Who's the global head of intelligence at F five. Great to see you again. Thanks for coming in the cube, Dan, first time I believe. Yeah. Happy to be here. All right. Good to see you guys. How's the, how's the event going for? Y'all >>It's been just fascinating to see all those, uh, new players coming in and taking security in a very holistic way. Uh, very encouraged. >>Yeah. Boston in, in July is, is good. A lot of, a lot of action to Seaport. When I was a kid, there was nothing here, couple mob restaurants and that's about it. And, uh, now it's just like a booming, >>I'm just happy to see people in, in person. Finally, is >>This your first event since? Uh, maybe my second or third. Third. Okay, >>Great. Since everything opened up and I tell you, I am done with >>Zoom. Yeah. I mean, it's very clear. People want to get back face to face. It's a whole different dynamic. I think, you know, the digital piece will continue as a compliment, but nothing beats belly to belly, as I like absolutely say. All right. Hi on let's start with you. So you guys do a, uh, security report every year. I think this is your eighth year, the app security report. Yeah. Um, I think you, you noted in this report, the growing complexity of apps and integrations, what did you, what are, what were your big takeaways this year? >>And so, like you said, this is our eighth year and we interview and talk to about 1500 of like companies and it decision makers. One of the things that's so prevalent coming out of the survey is complexity that they have to deal with, continue to increase. It's still one of the biggest headaches for all the security professionals and it professionals. And that's explainable in a way, if you look at how much digital transformation has happened in the last two years, right? It's an explosion of apps and APIs. That's powering all our digital way of working, uh, in the last two years. So it's certainly natural to, to see the complexity has doubled and tripled and, and we need to do something about it. >>And the number of tools keeps growing. The number of players keeps growing. I mean, so many really interesting, you know, they're really not startups anymore, but well funded new entrance into the marketplace. Were there any big surprises to you? You know, you're a security practitioner, you know, this space really well, anything jump out like, whoa, that surprised >>Me. Yeah. It's been an interesting discussion when we look at the results, right. You know, some of us would say, gosh, this is such a big surprise. How come people still, you know, willing to turn off security for the benefits of performance. And, and, and as a security professional, I will reflect on that. I said, it's a surprise, or is it just a mandate for all of us in security, we got to do better. And because security shouldn't be the one that prevents or add friction to what the business wants to do, right? So it's a surprise because we, how can, after all the breaches and, and then security incidents, people are still, you know, the three quarters of the, uh, interviewees said, well, you know, if we were given a choice, we'll turn off security for performance. And I think that's a call to action for all of us in security. How do we make security done in a way that's frictionless? And they don't have to worry about it. They don't have to do a trade off. And I think that's one of the things, you know, Dan in working our entire anti automation, uh, solution one is to PR protect. And the other thing is to enable. >>Yeah. You think about Dan, the, I always say the, the adversary is extremely capable. The ROI of cyber tech just keeps getting better and better. And your jobs really is to, to, to lower the ROI, right. It decrease the value, increase the cost, but you're, I mean, fishing continues to be prevalent. You're seeing relatively new technique island hopping, self forming malware. I mean, it's just mind boggling, but, but how are you seeing, you know, the attack change? You know, what what's the adversary do differently over the last, you know, several years maybe pre and post pandemic, we've got a different attack service. What are you seeing? >>Well, we're seeing a lot higher volume attacks, a lot higher volume and velocity. Mm-hmm, <affirmative> it isn't uncommon at all for us to go in line and deploy our client side signals and see, uh, the upper 90%, um, is automated, unwanted automation hitting the application. Uh, so the fact that the security teams continue to underestimate the size of the problem. That is something I see. Every time we go in into an enterprise that they underestimate the size of the problem, largely because they're relying on, on capabilities like caps, or maybe they're relying on two of a and while two of a is a very important role in security. It doesn't stop automated attacks and cap certainly doesn't stop automated >>Tax. So, okay. So you said 90% now, as high as 90% are, are automated up from where maybe dial back to give us a, a marker as to where it used to be. >>Well, less than 1% is typically what all of our customers across the F five network enjoy less than 1% of all traffick hitting origin is unwanted, but when we first go online, it is upper 90, we've seen 99% of all traffic being unwanted >>Automation. But Dan, if I dial back to say 2015, was it at that? Was it that high? That, that was automated >>Back then? Or, you know, I, I don't know if it was that high then cuz stuffing was just, you know, starting to kind take off. Right? No. Right. Um, but as pre stuffing became better and better known among the criminal elements, that's when it really took off explain the pays you're right. Crime pays >>Now. Yeah. It's unfortunate, but it's true. Yeah. Explain the capture thing. Cause sometimes as a user, like it's impossible to do the capture, you know, it's like a twister. Yeah. >>I >>Got that one wrong it's and I presume it's because capture can be solved by, by bots. >>Well, actually the bots use an API into a human click farming. So they're humans to sit around, solving captures all day long. I actually became a human capture solver for a short time just to see what the experience was like. And they put me to the training, teaching me how to solve, captures more effectively, which was fascinating, cuz I needed that training frankly. And then they tested to make sure I solve caps quickly enough. And then I had solved maybe 30 or 40 caps and I hadn't earned one penny us yet. So this is how bots are getting around caps. They just have human solve them. >>Oh, okay. Now we hear a lot at this event, you gotta turn on multifactor authentication and obviously you don't want to use just SMS based MFA, but Dan you're saying not good enough. Why explain >>That? Well, most implementations of two a is, you know, you enter in username and password and if you enter in the correct username and password, you get a text message and you enter in the code. Um, if you enter in the incorrect username and password, you're not sent to code. So the, the purpose of a credential stocking attack is to verify whether the credentials are correct. That's the purpose. And so if it's a two, a protected log in, I've done that. Admittedly, I haven't taken over the account yet, but now that I have a list of known good credentials, I could partner with somebody on the dark web who specializes in defeating two, a through social engineering or port outs or SIM swaps S so seven compromises insiders at telcos, lots of different ways to get at the, uh, two, a text message. >>So, wow, <laugh>, this is really interesting, scary discussion. So what's the answer to, to that problem. How, how have five approach >>It highend touched on it. We, we want to improve security without introducing a lot of friction. And the solution is collecting client side signals. You interrogate the users, interactions, the browser, the device, the network, the environment, and you find things that are unique that can't be spoof like how it does floating point math or how it renders emojis. Uh, this way you're able to increase security without imposing friction on, on the customer. And honestly, if I have to ever have to solve another capture again, I, I, I just, my blood is boiling over capture. I wish everyone would rip it out >>As a user. I, I second that request I had, um, technology got us into this problem. Can technology help us get out of the problem? >>It has to. Um, I, I think, uh, when you think about the world that is powering all the digital experiences and there's two things that comes to mind that apps and APIs are at the center of them. And in order to solve the problem, we need to really zero in where, you know, the epic center of the, the, uh, attack can be and, and had the max amount of impact. Right? So that's part of the reason from a F five perspective, we think of application and API security together with the multitier the defense with, you know, DDoS to bots, to the simple boss, to the most sophisticated ones. And it has to be a continuum. You don't just say, Hey, I'm gonna solve this problem in this silo. You have to really think about app and APIs. Think about the infrastructure, think about, you know, we're here at AWS and cloud native solutions and API services is all over. You. Can't just say, I only worry about one cloud. You cannot say, I only worry about VMs. You really need to think of the entire app stack. And that's part of the reason when we build our portfolio, there is web application firewall, there's API security there's bot solution. And we added, you know, application infrastructure protection coming from our acquisition for threat stack. They're actually based in Boston. Uh, so it's, it's really important to think holistically of telemetry visibility, so you can make better decisions for detection response. >>So leads me to a number of questions first. The first I wanna stay within the AWS silo for a minute. Yeah. Yeah. What do you, what's the relationship with AWS? How will you, uh, integrating, uh, partnering with AWS? Let's start there. >>Yeah, so we work with AWS really closely. Uh, a lot of our solutions actually runs on the AWS platform, uh, for part of our shape services. It's it's, uh, using AWS capabilities and thread stack is purely running on AWS. We just, uh, actually had integration, maybe I'm pre announcing something, uh, with, uh, the cloud front, with our bot solutions. So we can be adding another layer of protection for customers who are using cloud front as the w on AWS. >>Okay. So, um, you integrate, you worry about a APIs, AWS APIs and primitives, but you have business on prem, you have business, other cloud providers. How do you simplify those disparities for your customers? Do you kind of abstract all that complexity away what's F fives philosophy with regard then and creating that continuous experience across the states irrespective of physical >>Location? Yeah, I think you're spot on in terms of, we have to abstract the complexity away. The technology complexity is not gonna go away because there's always gonna be new things coming in the world become more disaggregated and they're gonna be best of brain solutions coming out. And I think it's our job to say, how do we think about policies for web application? And, you know, you're, on-prem, you're in AWS, you're in another cloud, you're in your private data center and we can certainly abstract out the policies, the rules, and to make sure it's easier for a customer to say, I want this particular use case and they push a button. It goes to all the properties, whether it's their own edge or their own data center, and whether it's using AWS, you know, cloud front as you using or web. So that is part of our adapt. Uh, we call it adaptive application. Vision is to think delivery, think security, think optimizing the entire experience together using data. You know, I come from, uh, a company that was very much around data can power so many things. And we believe in that too. >>We use a, we use a term called super cloud, which, which implies a layer that floats above the hyperscale infrastructure hides the underlying complexity of the primitives adds value on top and creates a continuous experience across clouds, maybe out to the edge even someday on prem. Is that, does that sound like, it sounds like that's your strategy and approach and you know, where are you today? And that is that, is that technically feasible today? Is it, is it a journey? Maybe you could describe >>That. Yeah. So, uh, in my title, right, you talked about a security and distribute cloud services and the distribute cloud services came from a really important acquisition. We did last year and it's about, uh, is called Wil Tara. What they brought to F five is the ability not only having lot of the SAS capabilities and delivery capabilities was a very strong infrastructure. They also kept have capability like multi-cloud networking and, you know, people can really just take our solution and say, I don't have to go learn about all the, like I think using super cloud. Yeah, yeah. Is exactly that concept is we'll do all the hard work behind the scenes. You just need to decide what application, what user experience and we'll take care of the rest. So that solutions already in the market. And of course, there's always more things we can do collect more telemetry and integrate with more solutions. So there's more insertion point and customer can have their own choice of whatever other security solution they want to put on top of that. But we already provide, you know, the entire service around web application and API services and bot solution is a big piece of that. >>So I could look at analytics across those clouds and on-prem, and actually you don't have to go to four different stove pipes to find them, is that >>Right? Yeah. And I think you'd be surprised on what you would see. Like you, you know, typically you're gonna see large amounts of unwanted automation hitting your applications. Um, it's, I, I think the reason so many security teams are, are underestimating. The size of the problem is because these attacks are coming from tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, even millions of IP addresses. So, you know, for years, security teams have been blocking by IP and it's forced the attackers to become highly, highly distributed. So the security teams will typically identify the attack coming from the top hundred or 1500 noisiest IPS, but they missed the long tail of tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of IPS that are only used one or two times, because, you know, over time we forced the attackers to do this. >>They're scaling. >>Yeah, they are. And, and they're coming from residential IPS now, uh, not just hosting IPS, they're coming from everywhere. >>And, and wow. I mean, I, we know that the pandemic changed the way that organization, they had to think more about network security, rethinking network security, obviously end point cloud security. But it sounds like the attackers as well, not only did they exploit that exposure, but yeah, yeah. They were working from home and then <laugh> >>The human flick farms. They're now distributor. They're all working from home. >>Now we could take advantage >>Of that when I was solving captures, you could do it on your cell phone just by walking around, solving, captures for money. >>Wow. Scary world. But we live in, thank you for helping making it a little bit safer, guys. Really appreciate you coming on the queue. >>We'll continue to work on that. And our motto is bring a better digital world to life. That's what we can set out >>To do. I love it. All right. Great. Having you guys. Thank you. And thank you for watching. Keep it right there. This is Dave ante from reinforce 2022. You're watching the cube right back after this short break.

>>from around the globe. It's the queue with digital coverage of Docker Con Live 2020 brought to you by Docker and its ecosystem partners. Everyone welcome back to Docker Con 2020 Docker Con 20. I'm John Furrier, host of the Cube. We're here for virtual event docker con docker, con dot com, and check out all the great footage. And also great guests were talking to all the major thought leaders and people in the industry making it happen as we have this new reality, a great guest and a great segment here from Engine. It's now part of F five, Robb said. Who's the vice president? Product management Sydney, thanks for coming on this segment. Appreciate you taking the time to chat with us. >>No problem. Happy to be here >>so and UNIX Everyone that does development knows about you. Guys have been very popular product with developers. Number one in the Docker hub will get to that later on this segment. So it's known really in the industry is really easy, easy to use and very reliable component of cloud native and cloud, if you will Anything that working So So I got I got to ask you with the new reality we're living with Covert 19 we now see the new reality that's now apparent to everyone in the world that with new work style, working at home VPNs are under provision now. People working from home, more service area with security. The at scale problems are surface for the executives and business, saying, We need to figure this new reality out because this is not going to change. It's going to move to hybrid when it comes back. But ultimately it exposes and highlights the opportunities around cloud native and kind of shows the operating model of how applications are going to be using. So I think this is going to be mainstream trend for what used to be an inside baseball kind of industry. Conversation around micro services, containers, docker containers, kubernetes. This is all now a tailwind for what will be a massive surge in new APS. I want to get your thoughts and reaction to that as you guys are in the middle of it with your product and the developers would have to build new value on top of it. What's your reaction? >>Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. We're also dealing with our own version of this new way of working right. We're also working from home and working remotely and seeing how that impacts us. But as we think about our customers and the folks that leverage in genetics, we started with scaling applications. We have 10 X solution that made it easier to deploy an application, have it scale in a very efficient way. And so it's folks are moving online more and more, relying more on staying connected, no matter where they're working from. Providing that capability is something that's going to continue to be core and will increase in importance. And these folks are looking to build more modern applications or modernize what they already have. Leveraging our technologies is just a natural extension. It's the technology they're already familiar with. They've been relying on it for many years and, you know, as they look to the future, has the capabilities they need to continue to rely on it going forward. >>What are some of the new things that you're working on? You can share with the audience because you're known for tried and true, very reliable. Okay, now you got micro services, which is emerging and very dynamic, literally, figuratively. So what's the new stuff? What do you guys focused on? Can you share some insights into how you're thinking about it and some things that you're doing? >>Yeah, a big part of what we're focusing on is really taking with headaches that come with scaling up applications, especially in the modern world. Now, those headaches are all about understanding the complexity of these new applications, being in the confidence needed to be able to deploy them at scale and understand not only what they're doing, but make sure that if something were to go wrong, they could figure out what was happening. And so, as we think about the investments we're making at the help folks modernize versus just making it easier to employ at modern applications of scale, which is one category of things, second is making sure that you have a really strong understanding of how the application is really working, so that, you know, with if it breaks, it could be fixed quickly. But there opportunities to improve it. We can quickly see the impact of it, and, you know, there's a lot of capabilities we're building in on those two dimensions. And in the third dimension, I would say is around security. I think there's a lot of new surface area. It's being exposed as folks start to build more micro services based applications. And you know, with the technology we have way allow people to buy both rich security capabilities as well as very surgical capabilities, depending on where they need the right functionality. >>And the container business has been really great ride to watch the rise of containers that really someone who has been in software engineering since I was 17. You know, the old way of systems thinking is modernized with containers, and you saw that the beginning of a surge of a sea change Now, actually, with micro services, you just pointed out it's gonna create a whole nother level level of head room. But containers really brought in this notion of making systems work better together, and I think that's really been a great boon for developers. So I got to ask you, you know, Docker containers and now kubernetes on this trend, you guys have been very popular, if not the most popular downloaded container in the hub, and so you've been super popular developers. So what happens next? First? Well, why is that the case and talk to the developers? Why will you continue to be popular? What do you guys have got to keep that that satisfaction going. Why so popular? And how are you going to keep that rolling? >>Yeah, I think. Why so popular? I think we've been fortunate to ride the wave of trusted solutions, right? So folks were already leveraging us for their critical applications. I've been very critical location. It's natural to look to that same text technology as you move to new environments. And, yeah, we've been very fortunate. Teoh have folks continue to trust us with their applications as they move to new environments as a containerized things. And we appreciate that. And we continue to invest in making sure that our feature set is just as capable in those environments as it is anywhere else. And in addition to that, we do invest heavily in making sure that our capabilities and those in the container, space and micro services space specifically, are you staying ahead of where there's a lot of work we're doing to support the next generation capabilities that folks want to be able to leverage but aren't necessarily yet. And that scales from kind of near term things like like G rpc all the way out to HDP three. That's on the horizon. So as we look at the space, we're privileged to have the footprint already. But at the same time, we're not resting on our laurels. We're absolutely investing and making sure that we allow folks to continue to deliver that high quality, high performance application experience no matter what environment they choose to use. >>You know, you know, this whole covert crisis brings up the glass is half full or half empty, depending on your view is you know that due to the two worlds are certainly getting more collision oriented when it come together. The CSO level size of sides of the business and the developer side. We've always said for years other developers on the front lines and it's true, have been cloud native and cloud has been great for developers, but now more than ever, the conversation having on the business side would CSO CIO, CIO, CSO, or whatever have been Hey, my house is on fire after I don't have worry about I don't need to worry about the appliances and what's going on in my kitchen. I need to save my business. And so they're then gonna call the developers to the table. And you're seeing this this kind of formation of critical path thinking around OK, we need to come out of this crisis on a reinvention growth trajectory, which brings the developers into the mix even faster. So I want to get your thoughts on that because, you know, what does that actually mean? Are they gonna be called in for projects? I mean, what's the media's look like? Because you have a zoom meeting or whatever this is going to be now a new dynamic, A new psychology of the business models of these companies with developers are going to be very active leaders in that new role. Because the virtualized world, now that we live in, is going to be different. The applications have more demands and more more needs more capabilities. So take us through your thinking on this and what what should developers expect when they get called to those meetings? >>Yeah, I think you know the trend that we're seeing that's going to accelerate. I believe as a result of this is the internal transformation. So there's a lot of technologies that developers already leverage be able to deliver that absent. There's technologies that they'd like to be able to leverage more and more, especially if they're using more modern environments. And that tends to come into sharp relief against the legacy infrastructure that exists in the legend legacy tooling that oftentimes exists in large organizations. And so, as organizations start to see, not only about the in the world has changed prior to code, and they need to modernize and transform. I think you know this. This crisis will also spur folks toe really put more thought into how they operate. We're already looking at from the remote work perspective, but also the agility that businesses really want to be able to have but traditionally have been prevented from having. And so I think that the developers are really gonna have an opportunity here to really drive that agile change they want to see in an organization so they can get the capabilities they want help to market quickly. That's going to require new tools, new processes within the organization and those types of things that we're fully supported about. We work in legacy environments, work in modern environments. We allow companies to be as agile as they like to be. I think developers have a really good opportunity here to really be leaders of that change. >>That's awesome. Great insight. So let's talk about the developer side. I'll put my developer hat on for a second here. Sydney. OK, The business guys came to me. We're gonna We're gonna do more cool stuff. I get that. That's totally relevant. Very good insight there. But now in the developer and I have been working with engineers, and I know of Engine X. What's in it for me? What's in it for me? The developer? What do I need to know about Engine X now for me, as a developer, going forward? >>Look, I mean, way come from a really strong, open source tradition. And you know the main reason folks use our solutions. Because if we take headaches away right, I mean, we're a tool that allows folks to deliver their applications, deploy their applications without having to worry about the mechanics. And so for the developers, you know what's in it for you is you build, the application will take care of. The rest will make sure it gets delivered with the controls that are required with security and authentication is required. We operate as an extension of your application. We provide a lot of nice things in the front door. All the way back to you know, into the bedroom is technically a spark, as the application infrastructure is concerned. But, you know, we take care of that common infrastructure. They keep infrastructure set of capabilities needed. That application. Developers can simply focus on building the best applications they can, and we'll make sure that they were >>awesome. Now let's get into the F five acquisition combination with Engine X. What does that do for you guys? As a change of capabilities as it increased more head room for solutions? Is there a new joint tech take us through some of the impacts of that combination? >>Yeah, so it's been a good right. It's been just over a year since the deal closed, and we've been aggressively investing in scaling up the vision that we had previously have. We really want to bring applications to life. You make it so that your application not only scalable and highly available, but it's able to adapt over time. And that, of course, would require input from operations teams, of course, but you know, we're trying to make sure that folks have the ability to operate their applications under any circumstances, whether they're being attacked, whether they're under high demand, whether people are moving all over the place, and we're really trying to make it so that the application is essentially bullet proof. So with that five, we have the ability to invest more in that road map in that vision, in addition to bringing on some pretty cool, complimentary capabilities. One of the things that we're really happy to see is the rich security capabilities that five have has that we're now able todo leverage with the Internet solutions side by side, providing no again new ways to get really advanced security capabilities into the right places in your application greeting. Yeah, >>great insights. I really appreciate that That commentary love to get your thoughts on just something that's always been near and dear to my heart, being cloud world since the early days and trying stuff. Now it's fully enterprise ready and doing all sorts of new things that multi cloud hybrid. But remember the days back when Dev Ops was kind of debated? All that is the day of is it ops? And it always had that Dev ops kind of. I'm an operations person or a devil developer. That's kind of generally been resolved in the sense that infrastructure is code is kind of resolve that. But now, with the Covad crisis, you're seeing operations clearly front and center again, right? So you got security ops now coming online, networking up. So I think the new reality and the edge exploding people are home. That's technically an edge. Perimeter security is now the edge point. More and more edge is more and more network traffic is getting more and more complicated. This >>is >>put bring up a lot of conversation around. What is the new formula As you navigate this, how do you attack the problem? Space is how do you create solutions? Is there a playbook? Is there anything that you could share in terms of this new thinking? Because it's gonna be a new trajectory. I think this is an inflection point came from explosions coming of APS. I believe we've been reporting on that. But the thinking has to change. It's going to be pretty crazy. What's your what's your thoughts on this? >>Yeah, I think folks are getting more and more experience with this new way of working on infrastructure of code is absolutely here. Um, automation is absolutely your orchestrations. Absolutely here. And so I see no more and more of these capabilities will get stitched together. And as I said earlier, you know this this organizational transformation It's all about taking the human more and more out of the loop for certain things to be ableto benefit or to the benefit of being able to move more quickly, but in a predictable way. So you're living failures that come with moving quickly. But you're getting that elasticity that you really want. And so, yeah, I think there's more, more adoption of practices. It's not gonna be overnight for folks. But I do think again, this this crisis is gonna give folks an opportunity to really take a deeper look at how they've been operating and where they want to get to, and it's gonna provide an opportunity to accelerate that move, >>you know, from a developer's perspective. The tried and true form of making something complex, easy with us through abstractions making highly performing and highly available. Always a good formula, right? I mean, as the world gets more complex, you still got to move packets around. You still got to run applications. It's just gonna be that tried and true formula of reduce the complexity, make things easier but makes things run faster, make things runs higher scale. This seems to be the play book. What's your thoughts? >>Yeah, absolutely. You know, things that once were hard to becoming easy. And I think we look back three years. Five years from now, we'll see a world that's that's even more automated, moving much more quickly. And some of the things that look difficult now are gonna become commoditized, right? So, you know, as I talked about bringing applications of life and making applications more resilience, more able to protect themselves more ableto, he'll defend all that kind of stuff. The things that the advanced things that we're doing now that folks are playing with will become the easy things, and we'll have new challenges to focus on, especially as we look at things like Ai. We're really starting to get a sense for some of the capabilities we can apply Teoh impact application behaviors and performance. But once you get to the point where you build up a good library of capabilities now, you really have a nice playbook that can become a foundation for even more advanced things. >>Yeah, build that foundation. Scale it up. It's beautiful scales and new competitive Advantage. Lovett Final question. Just take a minute to give the plug for Engine X. Really appreciate your insights here in this segment on this new reality, this new new developer environments going to be huge. Give the plug for engines. What are you guys working on? What should people know about share? What's happened? >>Yeah, so Internet spent, you know, the last decade plus making applications work at scale. I'm really focused now on making applications easy and bringing them to life. And so, you know, the laser focus we have is on taking away the headaches that folks might have, you know, as they try to scale up on their applications. So we're focused on that space we're focused on taking with headaches that folks have is they're trying to make sure that the applications more secure we're taking away the headaches of folks have is they're dealing with complexity of applications. Um, and 80 eyes. You know, that's that's the hottest thing. Right now, people are talking about applications, but they're actually talking about AP eyes that needs to be leveraged, to be able to make their applications really saying so, you know, in all of those spaces, our focus is on making modernization much easier And taking where the headaches associated with doing so. >>Sidney, wrap side with VP of product management at engine X now part of F five. Great conversation. Um, him up on Twitter. He's out there. Great conversation with the community. Really appreciate you taking the time. Thank you. >>Thank you. >>Okay. Him up on Twitter? If any questions jump into the event, this is Docker con 2020. I'm John Furrier here in the Palo Alto studios. Getting all the moat interviews as fast as we can get them to you. Here is Docker con segment. Thanks for watching. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

>>live from Atlanta, Georgia. It's the Q covering Answerable Fest 2019. Brought to you by Red Hat. >>Welcome back. This is the Cubes Live coverage of anti professed 2019 here in Atlanta. Georgia Instrument in my co host is John Ferrier and happy to welcome to the program the first time guest pile sing. Who's a principal solutions engineer with F five? Of course. Five's a partner of Anti Bowl In the keynote this morning when they were laying out You know how to use all of these pieces? Oh, I need a load balancer. Great. Here. Here's five to the rescue. So tell us a little bit about you know your role inside F five and kind of fights activities here at the show. >>Sure. Sure. Uh, so thank you for the introduction. Yeah, My name is our piloting principal solution. Ngo S O. I work a lot with different alliance partners and answerable being one of them. Of course, s O. I develop technical integrated joint solutions with answerable. You know, we've had a great, great working relationship with the answerable. They've been absolutely wonderful to work with on at this summit. We have various activities We had a workshop at the contributor summit. We had a session yesterday. We have another workshop on Thursday. So we're really busy, you know, the boots being flowing. And so far, it's been an awesome experience. >>The other people of the show here, they really dig into what they're doing. Ah, you know, even on the bus ride to the party last night, people are talking about their configurations at lunchtime. Everybody is talking about it. Bring us inside a little bit, you know? So is the new collections what people are asking you about? Are there other deployment ways? You know, what are some of the things that are bringing people to talk to >>people That kind of talking, you know, on a broad spectrum, you know, there's some people are just starting out with answerable. They just want to know, you know, how do I write a play book with their 500? Get it running? Others are a little more advanced, you know, Let's get into rules, you know? What are we doing with rules? And then now collections is coming on top of mine. You know how you guys doing with collections, So of course we are in lockstep. You know, we have the first collections out. We're gonna bundle playbooks and a lot of work flows and rules that gonna be someone. It's gonna be easy for customers to just download used these work clothes out of the box and get started with that five. But we've had, you know, different use cases, different questions around Day zero deployment was his data management. Bliss is monitoring was back of resource. All sorts of questions >>in one of the things that's come up is, you know, hit the low hanging fruit and then go to the ant, worked close in tow and is more of a kind of the bigger opportunities. But, you know, we've been talking about Dev Ops two for 10 years, and this to me has always been like the area that's been ripe for Dev ops, configuration management, a lot of the plumbing. But now that it's 10 years later starting to see this glue layer, this integration layer come out and the ecosystem of partners is growing very rapidly for answerable. And so there's been a very nice evolution. This is kind of a nice add on to great community great customers for these guys. What's the integration like as you work with answerable? Because as more people come on and share and connect in, what's it take? What are some of the challenges? What some of the things that you guys need to do our partners need to do with danceable, >>Right? So contributing is, you know, it's been a little slow, I would say, because firstly, they got a kind of lawn answerable and they gotta learn. You know what sensible galaxy. How can I walk around it? And then there's the networking piece, right? How do I now make it work with F five? You know, is this role good enough? Should I be contributing or not? So we're working closely with, you know, Ned, ops engineers as well as the world changes to kind of say, you know, whatever you think is a good work, so is good enough to go there. So, you know, get your role uploaded on galaxy and, you know, show us what you're doing. It doesn't have to be the best, but just get it out there so way have a lot of workshops. You know, we also have this training on F. I called Super Netapp, which is kind of targeting that walked in that office. Engineers. So we're trying to educate people so that everybody is on board with with us. >>One of the conversation we've been having a lot this week has been about the collaboration between teams and historically that's been a challenge for networking. It's alright. Networking going to sit in the corner, tell me what you need. Oh, wait, You need those things changes. Nope, I'm not gonna do it for you are, you know. Okay, wait, get me a budget in 12 months and we'll get back to you. So, uh, how are things changing? Are they changing enough in your customers environments? >>That's a good question. So it is changing, but it's changing slowly. There's still a lot of silos like nettles. Guys are doing their stuff there. Watch guys are doing their self. But with automation is it's kind of hang in together because, you know, the network's engineers have their domain expertise, develops have tails. But, you know, we were able to get them in the same room because we don't get five and then we don't automation and and then they connect. They're like, Oh, you guys are doing what we've already done So it's happening, But it's so, but it's definitely drops that develops. You don't think this is >>the chairman? We've been covered. A lot of we've had a lot of events. We've talked about programmable infrastructure. Infrastructures code is kind of in the butt when you start getting into the networking side, because very interesting when you can program things, this is a nice future. Head room for Enterprises As their app start to think about micro service is what you're taking on the program ability of networking. How do you guys see that? What's your view? >>So program ability In the networking space, it's it's catching up like just five. As a company, we started with just rest a P. I called. Now we're going to moving to answerable to F eyes. Also coming out with this AP I call declared a baby I we have this F ai automation tow chain where we're kind of abstracting more and more off how much user needs to know about the device but be able to configure it really easily. So we're definitely moving towards that and I see other other networking when there's also kind off moving towards that program ability for sure. >>Did you have any specific customer stories you might be able to share? Understand. You might not be able to give the name of the company, but it's always helps to illustrate. >>Yeah, sure, definitely. So we had one customer who, you know, they had an older or not told a different load balancer. And they want to know my great order, the Air five. So they had a lot of firewall rules and, you know, a lot of policies that they wanted to move over. So they used to have these maintenance windows and move on application at a time, eh? So they started, came across sensible, started using answerable, and they were able to migrate like 5 to 10 applications for maintenance window. And they will, you know, they loved it. They've been using answerable. They've been great providence. Or what goes into our modules, you know, really helping us guiding us as well as to what they need. So they were a great, you know, customer story. Another customer we had was you know, we get a lot of use cases for if I that we want to be able to change an application or the network without incurring any downtime, you know, fail overs, it could be as simple as as broader Sze between data centers or, you know, something simple. But what this company did want to shift between fellow between data centers, they got into answerable, they were able to do it in minutes was his hours and, you know they loved it. >>I got to ask you about a Zen engineer. You think about the data center cloud we get that that's been around that workings been great, getting better as five G and I o. T Edge kind of comes into the picture how routing and networking works with compute and edge devices start to be an opportunity for these kinds of automation. How do you guys view that's future state of EJ and and as the surface area of the network gets larger and the edges really part of the equation now his need for automation great need for seeing observe abilities. Super hot area with micro service is now you got automation kind of Ah, nice area. Expand on. What's your thoughts on beyond the data center >>so beyond the data center. So f five is indifferent clouds right to donate ws as your g c p It's out there. We also have like you know, we've recently collaborated with not collaborated. You know, engine ex has become a part of their five. So, you know, we're out there on definitely with I od and you know, no one date us and the specific that there is a boom off applications and you know, we wantto not be a hindrance to anyone who's trying to automate applications anywhere. So ah, goal is also at five is everywhere and anywhere and securing abs, making them available >>and securities 200 big driver of automation. >>I'm glad you brought up in genetic. So you know, we've been very familiar seeing Engine X at a lot of the cloud shows how Zenger next kind of changing the conversation you're having with customers. >>So having a lot of conversations with develops engineers about an genetics, you know, some of them are already using it in the day to day activity, and, you know, they don't want to see how a five and engine excite gonna gonna come together And you know what kind of solutions we can offer. So if I were working on that strategy, But you know, definitely that there is a link between us and engine aches, and customers are happy to know that. You know, we're kind of now on the same pot, So if they're in the cloud on from, you know, they can choose which one they want, but they're going to get the same support and backing off. Five. >>Great. We're getting towards the end of answerable fests. Give us what you want. Kind of some of the key takeaways. People tohave about five here at the show. >>Sure. You know, if you haven't started automating at five Invincible. My key takeaways, you know, get started. It's really simple. We have sessions now. We have a workshop on those. They look that up a great resource for us. It's just answerable dot com slash five. We have great resources. Um, are answerable. Models are supported, were certified by that had answerable. So, you know, just dive in and start automating >>pale, saying Thank you so much for the update. Really appreciate it. And congratulations on the progress. >>Thank you so much. >>for John, for your arms to minimum, getting towards the end of two days water wall coverage here. Thanks, as always for watching the Cube.

>> Live from Orlando, Florida. It's the Cube. Covering Microsoft Ignite. Brought to you by Cohesity and the Cube's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, everyone, to the Cube's live coverage of the Microsoft Ignite here in Orlando. I'm your host Rebecca Night. Co-hosting today with Stu Miniman. We're joined by Calvin Roland. He is the SBP of Business Development at F5. Thanks so much for coming on the Cube. >> Lovely to be here. >> So set the scene for our viewers. What is F5? What are you about? You're based in Seattle. What do you do? >> Based in Seattle. Founded in 1996. Went public in 1999. We were known as the load balancer back then. We were the grandfathers that created that market space. We evolved it to an application centric focus, so now known as an application delivery control, or ADC, market and we're the leader in that space. >> You were $107 million in sales in 2001. Today $2 billion plus company. >> A little bit of growth. Been quite a ride. But we're not satisfied. We're looking to double that and more through the course of the next few years. >> So Calvin, like I said I've got a networking background, so obviously watch the ADC market. I might have been a little bit further down in the layer one through three stuff, but watched layers four through seven. I actually forgot that you guys are based in Seattle. There's been a little bit of activity over the last ten or fifteen years. Maybe you can explain how cloud's been impacting your space. (Inaudible) virtualized and all the Cloud guys are just going to eat your business alive? >> So I'm glad you asked that, actually. So a lot of people have said, gosh, the public cloud. Isn't that a problem for you? Is that going to be a head win at best for you guys? And the answer is well, if we don't continue to innovate the way we have since 1996, well, then yes, of course that's going to be a problem for us. But it's actually also a tremendous opportunity for us, and let me tell you why. So in the past, we were a physical product deployed in a data center. It had a floor. It had a roof. It had air conditioning. We put our product in a rack. And you had to buy all of the services in that box, if you will, and so then even as servers and data centers virtualized and we had virtual editions of our product, big IPEV, you still had to buy every feature that was in the product. But now with the advent of the cloud, we have an opportunity now to dis-aggregate those services and then re-aggregate them in any number of ways that are bespoke or specific for a given implementation construct, so the cloud puts us in a position to get in front of more application workloads, to get to more customers. Different personas like DevOps and ApDev, that we would not have been able to get in front of. So it puts us in a position to deliver on this vision we have, which is supplying applications and services for every application anywhere. >> Well Calvin, it's interesting. There's another Seattle-based company posting a 30,000 (inaudible). Microsoft has been going through their own digital transformation. >> Correct. >> We think about Windows on the PC, Windows on the server. Well, we've talked a lot about Windows 2019 and things like that, but Microsoft's gone through a digital transformation and it sounds like F5's going through a lot of those. Maybe help connect the dots as to the Microsoft ecosystem, how F5 plays into that. >> Okay, sure. Well, we have a long history of going to market together. It's a coincidence, but it doesn't hurt, that we're across Lake Washington from one another. F5 in Seattle, Microsoft in Redmond. But back in the early 2000s, Microsoft and F5 started working together saying hey, server constructs have moved to a three tier architecture being accessed through a web browser. There is a traffic management requirement to make sure that these applications, these servers, are always available, running fast, and then more secure than what it would otherwise be. We should be working with one another to make sure that we have best practice implementation guidance for our customers. And we focus on the enterprise, obviously. So it started there. And as the world started to evolve, server virtualization, data center virtualization, and now the cloud, we've continued to work hand in hand. And so now, regardless of whether or not you're deploying Azure Stack on prem, enabling a private cloud, and it's probably an and statement, it's not an or statement. deploying applications in Azure, you get the same experience as a result of that collaborative posture. >> So working hand in hand for digital transformation, you talked about the best practices. What have you learned? What emerged? What patterns? What behaviors that you have learned that you could also extend to other companies >> Okay, so beautiful thing about the cloud, about digital transformation, is there is now something that can satisfy that insatiable appetite in the marketplace for more and more applications. More complex architectures, as well. The good news: the technology is there. The economy makes sense. But that introduces complexity, right? That can actually be a gating factor for the enjoyment of that digital transformation. So, a best practice is implementing consistent methodologies for application and security services for the apps that you are standing up in this multi-cloud architecture. By having consistent methodologies you actually give yourself an opportunity to continue that pace of innovation. So the beauty is you're deploying more applications than ever before, more capability, more productivity. You're also increasing the opportunity for things to fail. You're also increasing your exposure footprint, if you will. 53% of cyber attacks are focused on the application, for example. Having consistent methodologies for ensuring that you have an appropriate security posture is something that obviously is a table stake. So F5 has been focusing on that as we go forward. >> Calvin, one of the things we look at is it's not just where things live but a lot of times, how do I take advantage of what the new platform can offer. You talked about in the cloud I can choose what features I'd need. As customers that are building new applications, whether that's micro services, containerized server (inaudible) or the like, what opportunities are there for F5 to get in there more. I don't know if it's new features or the like but, yeah. >> Sure, so the thing that we need to do is, speaking a little philosophically, is we need to meet customers where and when and how they want to be met and with what they want to be met with. I can flip it around and say the same thing for the applications. In this new application capital economy that we have, the application decides where it should be deployed, right? And so we need to do the technology and business model, they both go in hand in hand, innovation to ensure that we do just that. Meet the work load where and when and how it wants to be met and with the features and functionality that it needs to be met with. And so we have iterated our product roadmap portfolios, so we still have our physical big IP product, we still have the VE virtual edition of the product, we now have a cloud specific version, cloud edition. We are developing and will be available in our FY19 a DevOps CICD-focused version of the product. We have a SAS offering that is development being incubated as we speak. So we are looking to attack all of those vectors, so at the moment of ideation and instrumentation and orchestration we can be there to make sure that those personas know that they can take advantage of the application and security services that we provide. >> Calvin I want to have you take us one level deeper on securities. So obviously, critically important. Something we've been talking a lot about trust with Microsoft and how does security play into the product line from F5? >> It has for some time. We're just now shining a brighter light on it. >> Right. >> Because we were the indoor and outdoor for the majority of data centers, I'm dating myself by saying data center, for applications in the past our customers have said, hey, you're providing layer four through seven application services for us. This is an obvious place for you to supply security services like a web application firewall, access services, DDOS services, et cetera. And so we have done that and we've become a leader, for example, in the web application firewall, WAF, space. And so you'll continue to see us now focus on stand-alone security offerings that take advantage of that footprint that we've established in the marketplace, with this multi-cloud construct in mind. >> So you've painted this picture of a landscape. A multi-cloud world. Customers have so much choice. They're also struggling to keep up with the pace of innovation. I'm curious how you at F5 keep up with the pace of innovation and then also how you help customers do the same. >> No problem. It's easy. I'd like to say that we're better at it than everybody else, but we're in the pool swimming as fast as we can with everybody else. I used this phrase before. The market has this insatiable appetite for more and more applications. Now the good news is, well, the bad news is there is not commensurately more human capital to satisfy that insatiable appetite. No different for us. Luckily, technology and the economy for that technology has put us in a position to have a prayer, if you will. So CICD technology, obviously the agility that the cloud brings to us, the notion of being able to spread the tent that is DevOps to envelope the NetOps profession in a way that we now have coined this phrase SuperNetOps. So we've given the traditional NetOps profession the opportunity to partner more effectively with the DevOps persona that is driving a lot of this innovation to say, hey, as you're instrumenting these applications you need to make sure that you're thinking about these layer seven services, be they traffic management or security focused from day zero. And we can help you do so. So there's that on the implementation side and over on the development side, I mean we're just hiring like crazy and changing our methodologies like crazy, as well, just like everybody else. >> So I want to ask you about the hiring. At this point in time so many tech leaders really struggle with finding talent with the right kinds of skills and also the right kind of mindset because it is actually the people that drive the innovation. >> Right. >> So how do you recruit, and how do you retain the talent to make sure that they are there to make F5 the successful organization you want it to be? >> Are you going to make me put on my amateur Chief HR Officer hat? It's a challenge for us just like it is everybody else. Now we're lucky. We're in cloud city. We fell backwards to being in the most amazing spot on this rock that's hurtling through space. And so we benefit from the proximity to us being cloud central, if you will. And so almost through osmosis, we've picked up the ability to have that cloud shining on us to attract talent. But we have to diversify our R&D strategy as well. And so we're not just hiring in Seattle. We're not just hiring in San Jose. We're not just hiring in Spokane and Lowell, Tel Aviv. We have, like many others, we've stood up an F5 innovation center in India as well, for us to help us continue to drive that velocity of hiring for tech talent. We're going to continue to make investments in the R&D centers that we have stateside and in Israel and also in Warsaw, Poland, but for us to be able to continue to drive the R&D for the growth aspirations that we have we're hiring in India, as well. >> Calvin, this is actually the first time we've had the Cube at this event. We've done lots of industry events. The infrastructure side, the operating system side, the server side, the cloud and the like. You've had a large partnership with Microsoft for years, so, maybe help for people that haven't come, give them a little bit about what they're missing by not being at Microsoft Ignite. What kind of the vibe is that you get from customers at the show, meetings you're having, people you're talking to. >> Sure. Well I benefit from getting to be at a Ignite and InVision as well. The business focus sister event, if you will. But specifically to Ignite, all I could say is if you could turn the cameras around you would be able to see the energy that is taking place here. I actually feel like I'm shouting a little bit so hopefully I'm not bursting the ear drum of the listeners right now because it's loud in here. There's a lot of energy. There's a tremendous number of technology companies here, just like F5, that see an opportunity to be drivers of digital transformation. So people are curious about some of the challenges that we've talked about. And you're not here? Well then you've missed an opportunity. >> Anything that you would differentiate Microsoft and its ecosystem in this show? And the Invision, too. The business side compared to some of the other shows of the world? We go to- (crosstalk) >> It's breadth and depth. So either you get a very focused, very deep technology subject that you drill in on at an event like this. Or you get wide and shallow. And what I'd say about here is because of the decades, really, of enterprise focus and innovation and forward thinking of Microsoft, you get the breadth but you also get the depth as well. >> And actually you're the first guest we've actually had that mentioned the sister event. Maybe give us a little bit of color of what goes on there. >> So, I'll over-simplify it. The planners of the events are going to cringe. But I guess the simple differentiation is tech focus at Ignite. Business focus at Invision, if you will. So a lot of business leaders there that are being spoken to with the language that they need to be spoken to with. Helping them understand the breadth and depth of the technology that's happening here at Ignite but translating it into business transformation. So here we're focused a little bit more on technology innovation over at Invision, I don't even know if I'm pointing at the right direction, business model innovation. >> So if F5 were to have its own conference, its own Ignite-like event, what would you want to communicate about the vision and the strategy and the product services that F5 provides? >> So I've touched on it so I'll just reiterate it. We are excited about the phenomenon that is multi-cloud implementation constructs, digital transformation. We're excited about being a driver for that phenomenon. Enabling it to happen at a pace that it otherwise would not be able to happen in. And so the innovation that we're doing from a technology perspective, the product portfolio that I described, big IP, VE, cloud edition, Big IQ, our management and orchestration platform, our CICD-focused cloud specific implementation, our SAS, our managed service offering that is Silver Line. All of that technology and innovation we're tremendously excited about along with business model innovation. Licensing models like enterprise license agreements, subscription, et cetera. All of this puts us in a position within the Venn diagram that is digital transformation to actually achieve that nirvana which is providing application services for every application, anywhere. And so if you come to our event that's what you're going to learn about. >> But actually F5 Agility was in our backyard in Boston. >> Oh, man! >> You just missed it. You just missed it. Yes. >> Excellent, excellent. Well we'll be there next time. >> I'm counting on it. Don't say it if you don't mean it. >> Great. Well Calvin, thank you so much for coming on the show. It was a real pleasure having you here. >> It was a pleasure being here. Thank you. >> I'm Rebecca Night for Stu Miniman. We will have more from Microsoft Ignite in the Cube's live coverage in just a little bit.

>> Narrator: Live from Las Vegas: It's theCUBE covering AWS reInvent 2017. Presented by AWS, Intel, and our ecosystem of partners. (techno music) >> Welcome back, everyone, we're live here in Las Vegas. 45,000 people here at Amazon Web Services reInvent. This is theCUBE's exclusive coverage. I'm John Furrier, my co-host Stu Miniman. Our next guests are Barry Russell, general manager and business development of Amazon Web Services marketplace, growing like a weed, and Chad Whalen, who is the global Vice President of Public Cloud for F5, guys, welcome back to theCUBE. Barry, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you. >> So, I mean, just, you can kinda see it now. Clear as day, no more, I mean, Andy says, "We're okay to be misunderstood." That quote, okay, no one's gonna misunderstand the Marketplace. >> Barry: I think it's pretty clear. >> You get in there, and you make money. It's pretty straightforward. >> Barry: Reducing a bunch of friction for customers. >> What's the current pitch, I mean, because this sounds like an easy sell at this point, what's the real benefits? Because, more of services are coming in. You got composability. What's the current state of the Marketplace? >> Yeah, you know, I think it's a couple of things. Uh, it's about selection and customer choice, so we've really grown the catalog, in terms of number of listings that are available and now more than 4200 listings in the catalog, and we announced three key features that we launched on Tuesday: AWS private link which enables SAS products to be run in a VPC. We announced Private Image Build that allows enterprise customers to run their own hardened OS underneath an image, and then we announced Enterprise Contract to reduce friction in the procurement process between large enterprise customers and software vendors. >> Okay, so I gotta ask, the AWS question: What was the working backwards document on this? Was it a main request from the customers? What was the main driver for some of these features because it sounds like they want to be cloud native, but, yet, they still gotta get that migration over, or was it something else, what was the driver? >> The driver was customer feedback. We went out, and we interviewed hundreds of customers over the last 12 months before we started building some of these features, and, without a doubt, they told us they wanted broader selection, broader deployment options, and to reduce friction around the contracting process, and then we just started building, and, over the course of the last nine to 10 months, that's what we've delivered. >> Awesome, all right, F5, you guys are in the Marketplace. You're partnered with AWS. What's your relationship with AWS, how's that going? >> Oh, I would say our relationship with AWS is fantastic. I mean, they're obviously the innovator in the Cloud space. Public Cloud is a strategic imperative for F5. They're at the vanguard of really the innovation of what's taking place in Public Cloud, and Marketplace is that fantastic medium to reach market, and, so, we really have the premise around meeting our customers how and when they want to be met. Marketplace is an excellent vehicle for us to do that, and we've enjoyed a lot of success with launch. >> How has your customers' consumption changed with the Cloud 'cause I can only imagine that, as they look at the mix of how they're gonna consume technology, they want some Cloud. How did you guys hone in on AWS? What was the real factor there? Was is acquisition of the technology? Was it the performance, what was some of the key things? >> You know, I think it's all about really reducing the friction in the process, right? Our customers are moving to the Cloud to have real-time agility and velocity in their business. What we get out of Marketplace is a fantastic set of options from a commercial construct. This solved the customer requirements. If it's going to be at development, we do it on a utility by the hour. When you start to go into production, we can do it in a subscription or a BYOL, so it's really about what application is there permanence and what's the best outcome for the customer, and we have all of that in front of us in multi-year agreements or otherwise leverage in this vehicle. >> So they're tailoring the products, basically. >> Absolutely. >> It sounds like customers are looking at this tailored model, whatever their needs are. They don't wanna be forced into a. >> Correct. >> Certain use case, they can just kind of mix and match. >> Yup, absolutely. >> Yeah, Barry, you know, think networking security have been spaces that I've seen really exploding in this ecosystem over the last couple a years. It, building off of what John was say, I mean, how much of it is custom stuff? You know, things that they're coming, working with Amazon versus just, you know, oh, it's the everything store where I can go get pieces? >> Well, we work with each vendor that lists in the catalog. We have a SA team, Solution Architect team, to work with them on the optimal architecture, be that an omni-based, API-based, and SAS-based, and then we give that vendor and their product development teams the ability to price those products in utility consumption model metered, for example, on the amount of data or band-width consumed, multi-year contracts that are publicly priced or negotiated behind the scenes. So, both in the innovation and the engineering and how the customer actually deploys the product, we innovate on pricing and consumption models to match those deployment options, and we give vendors, all vendors, that enter the catalog, whether they're open-source or commercial products, like F5, the option to use all of those features. >> Yeah, Chad, I think back to, you know, there was the wave of like software, you know, happening kind of networking and secured and everything, but, you know, you've always been in kind of the application delivery portion of this. How is Cloud accelerating your customers' journey and impacting how fast you need to change inside at F5? >> Yeah, that's a great question. I think that because Public Cloud is such a fantastic vehicle for our customers it was really customers-focused, right? So, when you work back from what the customer wants both in terms of how you orchestrate, how you automate, and then with the commercial construct is then they can use it in a best-fit application, and that's really the grounding point for us, and, when we get friction, any time you have a new medium there's going to be friction points and learning points. We've worked in concert with AWS, Marketplace in particular, about solving these ways, whether it's in private offers or custom negotiated offers specifically for customers to meet their needs from an economic and a delivery standpoint. >> I gotta ask the question 'cause it always pops into my head, especially at this reInvent, the pace of services being released, Lambda, Serverless, you can just see it coming. It's going to put more pressure under the hood for automation, that heavy lifting that's Dev Ops, as we know, right, so no new news there. The question is what does it mean for the Marketplace 'cause now you're gonna be under a lot of pressure to integrate a lot of these plumbing and or, abstracted away dev ops-like tools that developers don't wanna provision, so you have the automate so that seems like a challenge. How are you guys dealing with that? How do you make Lambda sing? How do you guys make this thing go smoother? >> Yeah, it's a really great question. I mean, one of the challenges that you get in, when you get into what I would say Cloud Sprawl, within an organization, is how do you maintain the governance and compliance of those workloads? And so we're really lookin' at it from that basis. We want to give as much flexibility into the model while still maintaining what was designed from the beginning, and so our customers wanna use the rules. They wanna have that portability into Public Cloud so they have the assurance. The underlying technologies are just the delivery vehicles, whether it's containers or Lambda or whatever in a server-less architecture, we're focused really on making sure that we have that ubiquity of posture across the asset wherever that asset is. >> Jeff: Makes your sources work together properly. >> Absolutely. >> Barry, what's the trends that you're seeing in the Marketplace? I mean, obviously, there's a lot of growth. Lot of data, and one of the things that I love about this reInvent is they're servicing this new playbook of, hey, use the data, your own data. We saw a new relic had a great report, Sumo Logic kind of report, that basically anonymizes the data, but they're using real data and Verner will talk about this at the keynote. What data can you share about the Marketplace that shows some trends that indicates or allows us to read the tea leaves of what's gonna happen next? >> Well, I think the customer growth stat that we shared, in terms of active monthly customers, we've gone from a hundred active monthly customers we announced last reInvent last year when we were here to now 160,000 active customers using the Marketplace, so we see steady growth. We see growth and adoption from the enterprise, and customers like Shell and Thomson Reuters, that we announced were part of Enterprise contracts on Tuesday, really beginning to think about using the Marketplace to go from traditional procurement moving to digital procurement model allows their IT organizations' dev ops teams to move much fast when pairing with services like a Kinesis, like an S3, like a Red Shift, when they're matching third party software with an AWS-native service. >> Jeff: Are you happy with things right now? Pretty much looking pretty good! >> I'm happy. >> Jeff: Middle of the fairway. >> I think it's been a fantastic show! (laughing) >> I'm happy, F5 has been a great partner of ours in the Marketplace, I'm a happy camper. >> Jeff: What's next? >> What's next? I think what's next for us next year is continuing to grow the Enterprise contract that we deployed, so we started with a small set of customers and vendors that participated to help us arrive at that contract that they both could use, and, I think that over the course of the next 12 months, we really need to think about the types of customers and vendors that enter that program. >> All right, Barry Russell and Chad Whalen with F5. Barry will be back on our next segment with another partner. A lot of partner goodness here. Amazon's ecosystem's exploding, and there's a lot of value to be had by all. That's theCUBE bringing you some content value on our third day live coverage. 45,000 people here this year at Amazon Webster's reInvent. More after this short break. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman. We'll be right back. (techno music)

>> Narrator: Live from Nice, France, it's theCUBE, covering .NEXT Conference 2017 Europe, brought to you by Nutanix. Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman, and you're watching theCUBE SiliconeANGLE Media's independent live broadcast of Nutanix .NEXT here in Nice, France. Happy to have join with me a first-time guest, John McAdam, who is the former CEO of F5 and an independent board member for a number of companies including F5, Tableau, and Nutanix. The show that we're at. So John, thanks so much for joining us. No, thank you, thanks for having me. All right, so let's start, just for people who aren't familiar, I said, you know, you were CEO of F5 for quite a few years, just give us a little bit about your background in business and what brings you here. I graduated from Glasgow University, you probably can tell from the accent, I'm Scottish. >> Stu: Yes. I moved over to the States when I joined a company called Sequent in 1994, and I became president of Sequent in 1995, and I've actually been in the States since then, up until I retired in April this year. So I spent 11 years at Sequent, president and chief operating officer, big server company is what we did at the time. Mainly selling Oracle type databases running on the servers. We were purchased, we were acquired by IBM in '99. I stayed with IBM for a year. I was running the AIX business globally for IBM, and then I was headhunted by F5 Networks, and I joined them in 2000, just as the .com bust was about to happen, and we'll talk about that later maybe. And I was the CEO at F5 for 17 years, and during the last few years I joined the board of Tableau, as you mentioned, and a company called Apptio as well based in Seattle, and of course Nutanix. Yeah, so a lot of our audience are everything from CIOs to people that someday might want to be a CIO, but very much kind of a blend of business and technology, can you tell people, some people are like, I don't understand how somebody becomes an independent board member. You're not the former CEO of that company or you're not one of the people... What does it mean to be an independent board member? You know, it's an interesting story because the independent board members at F5 actually kept encouraging me to join the board, and I kept saying, no I don't need to do that, I'm really busy, focused on the company. And also I've been a board member since 1995 as an executive, as a board member of Sequent and a board member of F5, so why would I want to join a board. And then eventually, I actually got approached, first of all by Tableau, the CEO of Tableau at the time, and seemed a very interesting conversation. So I decided to join the board. It was pre-IPO. And I thought I could add some value there, in terms of growing the company, etc. So I went along to the first board meeting and I went to the second, and I came back to the F5 board and I said, I apologize. I should have done this earlier. I didn't appreciate how much I would realize and learn being at the other side of the table as an independent board member. Because remember, you're turning up once every three months or two months. You don't know the day-to-day what's going on, but you have a very different perspective. And I wish I had done it earlier, but really it's all about trying to give consultancy, support, advice, obviously there's governance things you do as well. And I've really enjoyed being on the boards and especially Nutanix. Okay, your career, you know we've had, I think since about the time you joined F5, there was the .com crash, there was the downturn in '07/'08, so you've seen some boom times, you've seen some down times. What do you take away for those and how do you help advise the companies that you're working with? You're absolutely right. It's been an interesting experience. When I joined, as I mentioned earlier, it was a .com about to crash happening, and the big issue for F5 was it was actually 90% .com business, so the revenue collapsed completely, the stock price dropped, from today's price, from $21 to $1.50. We've run out of cash in certain areas. We ended up selling off 10% of the company to actually Nokia, they took ownership. So it was very much a survival phase. And in that phase you really have to, you need to make quick decisions. There's no time for the coaching that you would normally do. It's not as inspirational. But once you're out of it, once you get the P and L, you know, the profit and loss, and the balance sheet in good shape. Then we moved into, I would call, the stability phase, and the deal there was that we really were building a new architecture of product. We knew it was going to take a couple years. So that's all about making sure that you're in a good environment, you're going to deliver the goods from a market perspective, and we did that. I remember this well, in September 2004, we announced a new version, a new architecture, boom, we jumped into the growth (mumbles). Fifty percent growth, not quite as much as Nutanix today, but 50, 55, 40%. That's different, that's an inspirational world, you know, where you're really trying to inspire the company, it's all about hiring, and it's fun. How much do companies, when you advise them, worry about kind of what's happening to them versus what's happening locally and globally from an economics standpoint? I talked to Dheeraj many times kind of leading up to the IPO, and it was like, well, we have no control over kind of the global economical pieces, so we're building for the long term, and we will just eventually have to be like, okay, we'll go out in the public market. You know, you can't, just like buying and selling stocks, you can't necessarily time it. So, how does that impact, you know, kind of balance some of those things? I mean the best example is 2008, 2009, where we had the financial crisis, and, as I mentioned, we were very much in growth phase in 2004, '05, '06, '07. Interesting enough, as we were moving into 2008, the timing wasn't great because we were doing a product transition, and then along came the financial crisis, and it was pretty mind boggling, And the end of 2008, December 2008, customers stopped buying. And at first we thought oh my God, is this just us? And then of course, pretty soon moving into January 2009 you realize it's not you. So we didn't ignore it, to be honest, we didn't ignore it. But what we did do was we kept hiring. We cut back a little bit on the hiring, and in fact, I wish we hadn't have done that. I wish we would have completely ignored it, and of course this is me now looking back, so I can say that. The reason I'm saying I wish we had ignored it and kept growing was six months after, moving into the second half of 2009, not only did we see our business starting to grow again, but it accelerated because a demand had built up during that time. So bottom line is I don't think you can ignore global issues going on. You certainly can't ignore big global issues like 2008, but you still have to focus on what you know as your business, especially if you know you've got a good market, you know there's a demand, and just see yourself through it. Yeah, you mentioned one of the companies you joined was pre-IPO from an advisor standpoint. Have you been a Nutanix advisor just before the IPO (mumbles)? I have, I've actually had the unique experience of being on Tableau pre-IPO, Nutanix pre-IPO, and also Apptio, all pre-IPO. So I've watched the three of them going through the IPO process. So of course, Dheeraj tries to say, look, you know, I'm not going to let Wall Street kind of dictate anything, but, you know, it has to be a little bit different when you've got kind of the financial people looking at things from the outside, always trying to second guess strategy and the like. How do you give advice through that? Yeah, my advice on this, and it is somewhat different, to say it's not different wouldn't be completely correct, however, you can't let Wall Street run your business, you can't, especially if you've got conviction in terms of what you're doing. The one area where you do need to be a bit careful is that, the thing I've always said when I was CEO of F5 was our business was all about, when I was asked, do you think you could be acquired? The answer has always been from me the following: We're focused on the business, we're focused on growing a company. When you do that you become more strategic and attractive to other companies. But as long as you keep growing, your market cap keeps high, and you keep going. Right. If your market cap drops as well as the stock price there is always a danger that you could become an acquisition target. So you can't ignore it completely. But frankly, both of those messages are win-wins for investors. Absolutely, what can you say about Nutanix? You know, a year after an IPO, 2800 employees, pushing globally, you know, this show's doubled in attendance from last year. Without getting into closed-doors things, what's your take on (mumbles). Yeah, and as an independent director, I have to be more generic, but clearly, fast-growing company in a great market, a leader in the hyperconvergent market. I love their concept of simplicity, invisible infrastructure. I think that's a place that customers want to be right now, so I think they're in really good position. What in the market is interesting you these days? I look across kind of the companies you work with, you know, data is becoming more and more valuable. I spent many years working for a large storage company, used to be it wasn't really about the data, it was about the storing, and now, data from the big data companies, everything else, it's about how do I leverage and get information out, you know, we're hearing Nutanix play into that message. Yeah, and really it's the three main areas, data, you know data in particular, the Cloud, I'm not going to give you anything new here, and security. They're the three hot topics today. And the three of those are twisted in a knot are they not? They're all linked together. We just interviewed a gentleman from a bank, and he said basically, all of our budget gets put on security these days. Yeah, I mean, what concerns you, is it kind of the geopolitical, the hackers and ransomware, security? I think back early in my career, security always got lip service as being important, but today, it absolutely comes to the front of mind and you know most companies I talk to are concern would probably be understating it as to kind of the state of security. No absolutely, I mean, it's touching everybody now, boards, independent board members, it's high up on the list of discussion topics at board meetings. You know, every company is vulnerable, and if you're a technology company that's got customer data and you're in the security business as well, you really have to make sure that you're well protected. How often is security a board-level discussion these days? Most board members, most board discussions, and certainly in the audit committee, it's almost every one now. What has to happen there? Making sure that it's being looked at properly by the executives, that they take it seriously, there's enough investment, making sure that all the tools are in place if there is an attack, all of the above. Do you touch on GDPR at all? I'm curious if that comes up in your conversations. No I haven't been involved in that. I know there's a breakout session on it today, but I've not been involved in that. It just reminds me of a similar thing is that people have said, you need to make sure you're doing your due diligence and doing as much as you can, which feels like the same for security, because nobody's going to say, yes, I'm 100% secure because there's no such thing anymore. There's no such thing and there's so many different attacks, and frankly, most companies have got security solutions from so many different vendors, even sometimes from your competitor. All right, so the last thing I have to say is I don't think we've ever done theCUBE in Scotland, and it's a beautiful country, so we've got to figure out how to do some small event there. I'll help you. (laugh) All right, John, I want to give you the final word, your take, you come, why do you attend? Obviously you're an independent board, you probably have some meetings, talk to us about a show like this, what brings you. Yeah, and this is the first one I've attended. I've actually attended one similar with Tableau and similar with Apptio as well. It's good for an independent board member to see some of the presentations, how the executives and management are talking to customers, so it's actually good to get more of a feel for the business. All right, well John McAdam, appreciate you bringing a different perspective to our programming. We always want to help give a taste of what's happening at these shows out to our audience. So thank you so much for joining us. I'm Stu Miniman, and you're watching theCUBE.

from the cube studios in Palo Alto in Boston bringing you data-driven insights from the cube and ETR this is breaking analysis with Dave vellante over the past decade cloudflare has built a Global Network that has the potential to become the fourth us-based hyperscale class cloud in our view the company is building a durable Revenue model with hooks into many important markets these include the more mature DDOS protection space to other growth sectors such as zero trust a serverless platform for application development and an increasing number of services such as database and object storage and other network services in essence cloudflare could be thought of as a giant distributed supercomputer that can connect multiple clouds and act as a highly efficient scheduling engine at scale its disruptive DNA is increasingly attracting novel startups and established Global firms alike looking for Reliable secure high performance low latency and more cost-effective alternatives to AWS and Legacy infrastructure Solutions hello and welcome to this week's wikibon Cube insights powered by ETR in this breaking analysis we initiate our deeper coverage of cloudflare we'll briefly explain our take on the company and its unique business model we'll then share some peer comparisons with both the financial snapshot and some fresh ETR survey data finally we'll share some examples of how we think cloudflare could be a disruptive force with a super cloud-like offering that in many respects is what multi-cloud should have been cloudflare has been on our peripheral radar Ben Thompson and many others have written about their disruptive business model and recently a breaking analysis follower who will remain anonymous emailed with some excellent insights on cloudflare that prompted us to initiate more detailed coverage let's first take a look at how cloudflare seize the world in terms of its view of a modern stack this is a graphic from cloudflare that shows a simple three-layer Stack comprising Storage and compute the lower level and application layer and the network and their key message is basically that the big four hyperscalers have replaced the on-prem leaders apps have been satisfied and that mess of network that you see and Security in the upper left can now be handled all by cloudflare and the stack can be rented via Opex versus requiring heavy capex investment so okay somewhat of a simplified view is those companies on the the left are you know not standing still and we're going to come back to that but cloudflare has done something quite amazing I mean it's been a while since we've invoked Russ hanneman of Silicon Valley Fame on breaking analysis but remember when he was in a meeting one of his first meetings if not the first with Richard Hendricks it was the whiz kid on the show Silicon Valley and hanneman said something like if you had a blank check and you could build anything in the world what would it be and Richard's answer was basically a new internet and that led to Pied Piper this peer-to-peer Network powered by decentralized devices and and iPhones and this amazing compression algorithm that enabled high-speed data movement and low latency uh up to no low latency access across the network well in a way that's what cloudflare has built its founding premise reimagined how the internet should be built with a consistent set of server infrastructure where each server had lots of cores lots of dram lots of cash fast ssds and plenty of network connectivity and bandwidth and well this picture makes it look like a bunch of dots and points of presence on a map which of course it is there's a software layer that enables cloudflare to efficiently allocate resources across this Global Network the company claims that it's Network utilization is in the 70 percent range and it has used its build out to enter the technology space from the bottoms up offering for example free tiers of services to users with multiple entry points on different services and selling then more services over time to a customer which of course drives up its average contract value and its lifetime value at the same time the company continues to innovate and add new services at a very rapid cloud-like Pace you can think of cloudflare's initial Market entry as like a lightweight Cisco as a service the company's CFO actually he uses that term he calls it that which really must tick off Cisco who of course has a massive portfolio and a dominant Market position now because it owns the network cloudflare is a marginal cost of adding new Services is very small and goes towards zero so it's able to get software like economics at scale despite all this infrastructure that's building out so it doesn't have to constantly face the increasing infrastructure tax snowflake for example doesn't own its own network infrastructure as it grows it relies on AWS or Azure gcp and and while it gives the company obvious advantages it doesn't have to build out its own network it also requires them to constantly pay the tax and negotiate with hyperscalers for better rental rates now as previously mentioned Cloud Fair cloudflare claims that its utilization is very high probably higher than the hyperscalers who can spin up servers that they can charge for underutilized customer capacity cloudflare also has excellent Network traffic data that it can use to its Advantage with its Analytics the company has been rapidly innovating Beyond its original Core Business adding as I said before serverless zero trust offerings it has announced a database it calls its database D1 that's pretty creative and it's announced an object store called R2 that is S3 minus one both from the alphabet and the numeric I.E minus the egress cost saying no egress cost that's their big claim to fame and they've made a lot of marketing noise around about that and of course they've promised in our a D2 database which of course is R2D2 RR they've launched a developer platform cloudflare can be thought of kind of like first of all a modern CDN they've got a simpler security model that's how they compete for example with z-scaler that brings uh they also bring VPN sd-wan and DDOS protection services that are that are part of the network and they're less expensive than AWS that's kind of their sort of go to market and messaging and value proposition and they're positioning themselves as a neutral Network that can connect across multiple clouds now to be clear unlike AWS in particular cloudflare is not well suited to lift and shift your traditional apps like for instance sap Hana you're not going to run that in on cloudflare's platform rather the company started by making websites more secure and faster and it flew under the radar and much in the same way that clay Christensen described the disruption in the steel industry if you've seen that where new entrants picked off the low margin rebar business then moved up the stack we've used that analogy in the semiconductor business with arm and and even China cloudflare is running a similar playbook in the cloud and in the network so in the early part of the last decade as aws's ascendancy was becoming more clear many of us started thinking about how and where firms could compete and add value as AWS is becoming so dominant so for instance take an industry Focus you could do things like data sharing with snowflake eventually you know uh popularized you could build on top of clouds again snowflake is doing that as are others you could build private clouds and of course connect to hybrid clouds but not many had the wherewithal and or the hutzpah to build out a Global Network that could serve as a connecting platform for cloud services cloudflare has traction in the market as it adds new services like zero trust and object store or database its Tam continues to grow here's a quick snapshot of cloudflare's financials relative to Z scalar which is both a competitor and a customer fastly which is a smaller CDN and Akamai a more mature CDN slash Edge platform cloudflare and fastly both reported earnings this past week Cloud Fair Cloud flare surpassed a billion dollar Revenue run rate but they gave tepid guidance and the stock got absolutely crushed today which is Friday but the company's business model is sound it's growing close to 50 annually it has sas-like gross margins in the mid to high 70s and it's it it's got a very strong balance sheet and a 13x revenue run rate multiple in fact it's Financial snapshot is quite close to that of z-scaler which is kind of interesting which zinc sailor of course doesn't own its own network that's a pure play software company fastly is much smaller and growing more slowly than cloudflare hence its lower multiple well Akamai as you can see is a more mature company but it's got a nice business now on its earnings call this week cloudflare announced that its head of sales was stepping down and the company has brought in a new leader to take the firm to five billion dollars in sales I think actually its current sales leader felt like hey you know my work is done here bring on somebody else to take it to the next level the company is promising to be free cash flow positive by the end of the year and is working hard toward its long-term financial model or so working towards sorry it's a long-term financial model with gross margin Targets in the mid 70s it's targeting 20 non-gaap operating margins so so solid you know very solid not like completely off the charts but you know very good and to our knowledge it has not committed to a long-term growth rate but at that sort of operating profit level you would like to see growth be consistently at least in the 20 range so they could at least be a rule of 40 company or perhaps even even five even higher if they're going to continue to command a premium valuation okay let's take a look at the ETR data ETR is very positive on cloudflare and has recently published a report on the company like many companies cloudflare is seeing an across the board slowdown in spending velocity we've reported on this quite extensively using the ETR data to quantify the degree to that Slowdown and on the data set with ETR we see that many customers they're shifting their spend to Flat spend you know plus or minus let's say you know single digits you know two three percent or even zero or in the market we're seeing a shift from paid to free tiers remember cloudflare offers a lot of free services as you're seeing customers maybe turn off the pay for a while and going with the freebie but we're also seeing some larger customers in the data and the fortune 1000 specifically they're actually spending more which was confirmed on cloudflare's earnings call they did say everything across the board was softer but they did also indicate that some of their larger customers are actually growing faster than their smaller customers and their churn is very very low here's a two-dimensional graphic we'd like to share this view a lot it's got Net score or spending momentum on the vertical axis and overlap or pervasiveness in the survey on the horizontal axis and this cut isolates three segments in the etrs taxonomy that cloudflare plays in Cloud security and networking now the table inserted in that upper left there shows the raw data which informs the position of each company in the dots with Net score in the ends listed in that rightmost column the red dotted line indicates a highly elevated Net score and finally we posted the breakdown those colors in the bottom right of cloudflare's Net score the lime green that's new adoptions the forest green is we're spending more six percent or more the gray is flat plus or minus uh five percent and you can see that the majority of customers you can see that's the majority of the customers that gray area the pink is we're spending Less in other words down six percent or worse and the bright red is churn which is minimal one percent very good indicator for for cloudflare what you do to get etr's proprietary Net score and they've done this for many many quarters so we have that time series data you subtract the Reds from the greens and that's Net score cloudflare is at 39 just under that magic red line now note that cloudflare and zscaler are right on top of each other Cisco has a dominant position on the x-axis that cloudflare and others are eyeing AWS is also dominant but note that its Net score is well above the red dotted line it's incredible Palo Alto networks is also very impressive it's got both a strong presence on the horizontal axis and it's got a Net score that's pretty comparable to cloudflare and z-scaler to much smaller companies Akamai is actually well positioned for a reasonably mature company and you can see fastly ATT Juniper and F5 have far less spending momentum on their platforms than does cloudflare but at least they are in positive Net score territory so what's going to be really interesting to see is whether cloudflare can continue to hold this momentum or even accelerate it as we've seen with some other clouds as it scales its Network and keeps adding more and more services cloudflare has a couple of potential strategic vectors that we want to talk about and it'll be going to be interesting to see how that plays out Now One path is to compete more directly as a Cloud Player offering secure access Edge services like firewall as a service and zero Trust Services like data loss prevention email security from its area one acquisition and other zero trust offerings as well as Network Services like routing and network connectivity this is The Sweet Spot of the company load balancing many others and then add in things like Object Store and database Services more Edge services in the future it might be telecom like services such as Network switching for offices so that's one route and cloudflare is clearly on that path more services more cohorts at innovating and and growing the company and bringing in more Revenue increasing acvs and and increasing long-term value and keeping retention high now the other Vector is what we're just going to refer to as super cloud as an enabler of cross-cloud infrastructure this is new value uh relative to the former Vector that we were just talking about now the title of this episode is what multi-cloud should have been meaning cloudflare could be the control plane providing a consistent experience across clouds one that is fast and secure at global scale now to give you Insight on this let's take a look at some of the comments made by Matthew Prince the CEO and co-founder of cloudflare cloudflare put its R2 Object Store into public beta this past May and I believe it's storing around a petabyte of data today I think that's what they said in their call here's what Prince said about that quote we are talking to very large companies about moving more and more of their stored objects to where we can store that with R2 and one of the benefits is not only can we help them save money on the egress fees but it allows them to then use those object stores or objects across any of the different Cloud platforms they're that they're using so by being that neutral third party we can let people adopt a little bit of Amazon a little bit of Microsoft a little bit of Google a little bit of SAS vendors and share that data across all those different places so what's interesting about this in the super cloud context is it suggests that customers could take the best of each Cloud to power their digital businesses I might like AWS for in redshift for my analytic database or I love Google's machine learning Microsoft's collaboration and I'd like a consistent way to connect those resources but of course he's strongly hinting and has made many public statements that aws's egress fees are a blocker to that vision now at a recent investor event Matthew Prince added some color to this concept when he talked about one metric of success being how much R2 capacity was consumed and how much they sold but perhaps a more interesting Benchmark is highlighted by the following statement that he made he said a completely different measure of success for R2 is Andy jassy says I'm sick and tired of these guys meaning cloudflare taking our objects away we're dropping our egress fees to zero I would be so excited because we've then unlocked the ability to be the network that interconnects the cloud together now of course it would be Adam solipski who would be saying that or maybe Andy Jesse you know still watching over AWS and I think it's highly unlikely that that's going to happen anytime soon and that of course but but in theory gets us closer to the super cloud value proposition and to further drive that point home and we're paraphrasing a little bit his comments here he said something the effect of quote customers need one consistent control plane across clouds and we are the neutral Network that can be consistent no matter which Cloud you're using interesting right that Prince sees the world that's similar to if not nearly identical to the concepts that the cube Community has been putting forth around supercloud now this vision is a ways off let's be real Prince even suggested that his initial vision of an application running across multiple clouds you know that's like super cloud Nirvana isn't what customers are doing today that's that's really hard to do and perhaps you know it's never going to happen but there's a little doubt that cloudflare could be and is positioning itself as that cross-cloud control plane it has the network economics and the business model levers to pull it's got an edge up on the competition at the edge pun intended cloudflare is the definition of Edge and it's distributed platform it's decentralized platform is much better suited for Edge workloads than these giant data centers that are you know set up to to try and handle that today the the hyperscalers are building out you know their Edge networks things like outposts you know going out to the edge and other local zones Etc now cloudflare is increasingly competitive to the hyperscalers and those traditional Stacks that it depositioned on an earlier slide that we showed but you know the likes of AWS and Dell and hpe and Cisco and those others they're not sitting in their hands they have a huge huge customer install bases and they are definitely a moving Target they're investing and they're building out their own Super clouds with really robust stacks as well let's face it it's going to take a decade or more for Enterprises to adopt a developer platform or a new database Cloud plus cloudflare's capabilities when compared to incumbent stacks and the hyperscalers is much less robust in these areas and even in storage you know despite all the great conversation that R2 generated and the buzz you take a specialist like Wasabi they're more mature they're more functional and they're way cheaper even than cloudflare so you know it's not a fake a complete that cloudflare is going to win in those markets but we love the disruption and if cloudflare wants to be the fourth us-based hyperscaler or join the the big four as the as the fifth if we put Alibaba in the mix it's got a lot of work to do in the ecosystem by its own admission as much to learn and is part of the value by the way that it sees in its area one acquisition it's email security company that it bought but even in that case much of the emphasis has been on reseller channels compare that to the AWS ecosystem which is not only a channel play but is as much an innovation flywheel filling gaps where companies like snowflake Thrive side by side with aws's data stores as well all the on-prem stacks are building hybrid connections to AWS and other clouds as a means of providing consistent experiences across clouds indeed many of them see what they call cross-cloud services or what we call super cloud hyper cloud or whatever you know Mega Cloud you want to call it we use super cloud they are really eyeing that opportunity so very few companies frankly are not going after that space but we're going to close with this cloudflare is one of those companies that's in a position to wake up each morning and ask who can we disrupt today and very few companies are in a position to disrupt the hyperscalers to the degree that cloudflare is and that my friends is going to be fascinating to watch unfold all right let's call it a wrap I want to thank Alex Meyerson who's on production and manages the podcast as well as Ken schiffman who's our newest addition to the Boston Studio Kristen Martin and Cheryl Knight help us get the word out on social media and in our newsletters and Rob Hof is our editor-in-chief over at silicon angle thank you to all remember all these episodes are available as podcasts wherever you listen all you're going to do is search breaking analysis podcasts I publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com you can email me at david.velante at siliconangle.com or DM me at divalante if you comment on my LinkedIn posts and please do check out etr.ai they got the best survey data in the Enterprise Tech business this is Dave vellante for the cube insights powered by ETR thank you very much for watching and we'll see you next time on breaking analysis

(upbeat music) >> Hello everyone, welcome to this special Cube conversation. I'm John Furrier, host of theCube. We're here in Palo Alto. We've got some remote guests. Going to break down the Fortinet vulnerability, which was confirmed last week as a critical vulnerability that exposed a zero-day flaw for some of their key products, obviously, FortiOS and FortiProxy for remote attacks. So we're going to break this down. It's a real time vulnerability that happened is discovered in the industry. Horizon3.ai is one of the companies that was key in identifying this. And they have a product that helps companies detect and remediate and a bunch of other cool things you've heard on the cube here. We've got James Horseman, an exploit developer. Love the title. Got to got to say, I'm not going to lie. I like that one. And Zach Hanley, who's the chief attack engineer at Horizon3.ai. Gentlemen, first, thank you for joining the Cube conversation. >> Thank you. It's good to be here. >> Yeah, thank you so much for having us. >> So before we get into the whole Fortinet, this vulnerability that was exposed and how you guys are playing into this I just got to say I love the titles. Exploit developer, Chief Attack Engineers, you don't see that every day. Explain the titles Zach, let's start with you. Chief Attack Engineer, what do you do? >> Yeah, sure. So the gist of it is, is that there is a lot to do and the cybersecurity world. And we made up a new engineering title called Attack Engineer because there's so many different things an attacker will actually do over the course of attack. So we just named them an engineer. And I lead that team that helps develop the offensive capabilities for our product. >> Got it. James, you're the Exploit Developer, exploiting. What are you exploiting? What's going on there? >> So what I'll do in a day to day is we'll take N-days, which are vulnerabilities that have been disclosed to a vendor, but not yet publicly patched necessarily or a pocket exists for them. And I'll try to reverse engineer and find them, so we can integrate them into our product and our customers can use them to make sure that they're actually secure. And then if there's no interesting N-days to go after, we'll sometimes search for zero-days, which are vulnerabilities in products that the vendor doesn't yet know about. >> Yeah, and those are most critical. Those things can being really exploited and cause a lot of damage. Well James, thanks for coming on. We're here to talk about the vulnerability that happened with Fortinet and their products zero-day vulnerability. But first with the folks, for context, Horizon3.ai is a new startup rapidly growing. They've been on theCube. The CEOs, Snehal and team have described their product as an autonomous pen testing. But as part of that, they also have more of a different approach to testing environment. So they're constantly putting companies under pressure. Let's get into it. Let's get into this hack. So you guys are kind of like, I call it the early warning detection system. You're seeing things early because your product's constantly testing infrastructure. Okay? Over time, all the time always on. How did this come come about? How did you guys see this? What happened? Take us through. >> Yeah, sure. I'll start off. So on Friday, we saw on Twitter, which is actually a really good source of threat intelligence these days, We saw a person released details that 40 minutes sent advanced warning email that a critical vulnerability had been discovered and that an emergency patch was released. And the details that we saw, we saw that was an authentication bypass and we saw that it affected the 40 OS, 40 proxy and the 40 switch manager. And we knew right off the bat those are some of their most heavily used products. And for us to understand how this vulnerability worked and for us to actually help our clients and other people around the world understand it, we needed to get after it. So after that, James and I got on it, and then James can tell you what we did after we first heard. >> Yeah. Take us through play by play. >> Sure. So we saw it was a 9.8 CVSS, which means it's easy to exploit and low complexity and also kind of gives you the keys that take them. So we like to see those because they're easy to find, easy to go after. They're big wins. So as soon as we saw this come out we downloaded some firmware for 40 OS. And the first few hours were really about unpacking the firmware, seeing if we could even to get it run. We got it running a a VMware VMDK file. And then we started to unpack the firmware to see what we could find inside. And that was probably at least half of the time. There seemed to be maybe a little bit of obfuscation in the firmware. We were able to analyze the VDMK files and get them mounted and we saw that they were, their operating system was compressed. And when we went to decompress them we were getting some strange decompression errors, corruption errors. And we were kind of scratching our heads a little bit, like you know, "What's going on here?" "These look like they're legitimately compressed files." And after a while we noticed they had what seemed to be a different decompression tool than what we had on our systems also in that VMDK. And so we were able to get that running and decompress the firmware. And from there we were off to the races to dive deeper into the differences between the vulnerable firmware and the patch firmware. >> So the compressed files were hidden. They basically hid the compressed files. >> Yeah, we're not so sure if they were intentionally obfuscated or maybe it was just a really old version of that compression algorithm. It was the XZ compression tool. >> Got it. So what happens next? So take us through. So you discovered, you guys tested. What do you guys do next? How did this thing... I mean, I saw the news it hit heavily. You know, they updated, everyone updated their catalog for patching. So this kind of hangs out there. There's a time lag out there. What's the state of the security at that time? Say Friday, it breaks over the weekend, potentially a lot of attacks might have happened. >> Yeah, so they chose to release this emergency pre-warning on Friday, which is a terrible day because most people are probably already swamped with work or checking out for the weekend. And by Sunday, James and I had actually figured out the vulnerability. Well, to make the timeline a little shorter. But generally what we do between when we discover or hear news of the CV and when we actually pocket is there's a lot of what we call patch diffing. And that's when we take the patched version and the unpatched version and we run it through a tool that kind of shows us the differences. And those differences are really key insight into, "Hey, what was actually going on?" "How did this vulnerability happen?" So between Friday and Sunday, we were kind of scratching our heads and had some inspiration Sunday night and we actually figured it out. So Sunday night, we released news on Twitter that we had replicated the exploit. And the next day, Monday morning, finally, Fortinet actually released their PSIRT notice, where they actually announced to the world publicly that there was a vulnerability and here are the mitigation steps that you can take to mitigate the vulnerability if you cannot patch. And they also release some indicators of compromise but their indicators of compromise were very limited. And what we saw was a lot of people on social media, hey asking like, "These indicators of compromise aren't sufficient." "We can't tell if we've been compromised." "Can you please give us more information?" So because we already had the exploit, what we did was we exploited our test Fortinet devices in our lab and we collected our own indicators of compromise and we wrote those up and then released them on Tuesday, so that people would have a better indication to judge their environments if they've been already exploited in the wild by this issue. Which they also announced in their PSIRT that it was a zero-day being exploited in the wild It wasn't a security researcher that originally found the issue. >> So unpack the difference for the folks that don't know the difference between a zero-day versus a research note. >> Yeah, so a zero-day is essentially a vulnerability that is exploited and taken advantage of before it's made public. An N-day, where a security researcher may find something and report it, that and then once they announce the CVE, that's considered an N-day. So once it's known, it's an N-day and once if it's exploited before that, it's a zero-day. >> Yeah. And the difference is zero-day people can get in there and get into it. You guys saw it Friday on Twitter you move into action Fortinet goes public on Monday. The lag between those days is critical time. What was going on? Why are you guys doing this? Is this part of the autonomous pen testing product? Is this part of what you guys do? Why Horizon3.ai? Is this part of your business model? Or was this was one of those things where you guys just jumped on it? Take us through Friday to Monday. >> James, you want to take this one? >> Sure. So we want to hop on it because we want to be able to be the first to have a tool that we can use to exploit our customer system in a safe manner to prove that they're vulnerable, so then they can go and fix it. So the earlier that we have these tools to exploit the quicker our customers can patch and verify that they are no longer vulnerable. So that's the drive for us to go after these breaking exploits. So like I said, Friday we were able to get the firmware, get it decompressed. We actually got a test system up and running, familiarized ourself with the system a little bit. And we just started going through the patch. And one of the first things we noticed was in their API server, they had a a dip where they started including some extra HTTP headers when they proxied a connection to one of their backend servers. And there were, I believe, three headers. There was a HTTP forwarded header, a Vdom header, and a Cert header. And so we took those strings and we put them into our de-compiled version of the firmware to kind of start to pinpoint an area for us to look because this firmware is gigantic. There's tons of files to look at. And so having that patch is really critical to being able to quickly reverse engineer what they did to find the original exploit. So after we put those strings into our firmware, we found some interesting parts centered around authorization and authentication for these devices. And what we found was when you set a specific forwarded header, the system, for lack of better term, thought that you were on the inside. So a lot of these systems they'll have kind of, two methods of entry. One is through the front door, where if you come in you have to provide some credentials. They don't really trust you. You have to provide a cookie or some kind of session ID in order to be allowed to make requests. And the other side is kind of through the back door, where it looks like you are part of the system itself. So if you want to ask for a particular resource, if you look like you're part of the system they're not going to scrutinize you too much. They'll just let you do whatever you want to do. So really the nature of this exploit was we were able to manipulate some of those HTP headers to trick the system into thinking that we were coming in through the back door when we really coming in through the front. >> So take me through that that impact. That means remote execution. I can come in remotely and anonymous and act like I'm on the inside system. >> Yeah. >> And that's the case of the kingdom as you said earlier, right? >> Yeah. So the crux of the vulnerability is it allows you to make any kind of request you want to this system as if you were an administrator. So it lets you control the interfaces, set them up or down, lets you create packet captures, lets you add and remove users. And what we tried to do, which surprisingly the exploit didn't let us do was to create a new admin user. So there was some kind of extra code in there to stop somebody that did get that extra access to create an admin user. And so that kind of bummed us out. And so after we discovered the exploit we were kind of poking around to see what we could do with it, couldn't create an admin user. We were like, "Oh no, what are we going to do?" And eventually we came up with the idea to modify the existing administrator user. And that the exploit did allow us to do. So our initial POC, took some SSH keys adding them to an existing administrative user and then we were able to SSH in through the system. >> Awesome. Great, description. All right, so Zach, let's get to you for a second. So how does this happen? What does this... How did we get here? What was the motivation? If you're the chief attacker and you want to make this exploit happen, take me through what the other guy's thinking and what he did or she. >> Sure. So you mean from like the attacker's perspective, why are they doing this? >> Yeah. How'd this exploit happen? >> Yeah. >> And what was it motivated by? Was it a mistake? Was it intentional? >> Yeah, ultimately, like, I don't think any vendor purposefully creates vulnerabilities, but as you create a system and it builds and builds, it gets more complex and naturally logic bugs happen. And this was a logic bug. So there's no blame Fortinet for like, having this vulnerability and like, saying it's like, a back door. It just happens. You saw throughout this last year, F5 had a very similar vulnerability, VMware had a very similar vulnerability, all introducing authentication bypasses. So from the attacker's mindset, why they're actually going after this is a lot of these devices that Fortinet has, are on the edge of corporate networks and ransomware and whatever else. If you're a an APT, you want to get into organizations. You want to get from the outside to the inside. So these edge devices are super important and they're going to get a lot of eyes from attackers trying to figure out different ways to get into the system. And as you saw, this was in the wild exploited and that's how Fortinet became aware of it. So obviously there are some attackers out there doing this right now. >> Well, this highlights your guys' business model. I love what you guys do. I think it's a unique and needed approach. You take on the role of, I guess white hacker as... white hat hacker as a service. I don't know what to call it. You guys are constantly penetrating, testing, creating value for the customers to avoid in this case a product that's popular that just had the situation and needed to be resolved. And the hard part is how do you do it, right? So again, there's all these things are going on. This is the future of security where you need to have these, I won't say simulations, but constant kind of testing at scale. >> Yeah. >> I mean, you got the edge, it takes one little entry point to get into the network. It could be anywhere. >> Yeah, it definitely security, it has to be continuous these days. Because if you're only doing a pen test once a year or twice a year you have a year to six months of risk just building and building. And there's countless vulnerabilities and countless misconfigurations that can be introduced into a your network as the time goes on. >> Well, autonomous pen testing- >> Just because you're- >> ... is great. That's awesome stuff. I think it just frees up the talent in the organization to do other things and again, get on the real important stuff. >> Just because your network was secure yesterday doesn't mean it's going to be secure today. So in addition to your defense in depth and making sure that you have all the right configurations, you want to be continuously testing the security of your network to make sure that no new vulnerabilities have been introduced. >> And with the cloud native modern application environment we have now, hardware's got to keep up. More logic potential vulnerability could emerge. You just never know when that one N-vulnerability is going to be there. And so constantly looking out for is a really big deal. >> Definitely. Yeah, the switch to cloud and moving into hybrid cloud has introduced a lot more complexity in environments. And it's definitely another hole attackers going and after. >> All right. Well I got you guys here. I really appreciate the commentary on this vulnerability and this exploit opportunity that Fortinet had to move fast and you guys helped them and the customers. In general, as you guys see the security business now and the practitioners out there, there's a lot of pain points. What are the most powerful acute pain points that the security ops guys (laughing) are dealing with right now? Is it just the constant barrage of attacks? What's the real pain right now? >> I think it really matters on the organization. I think if you're looking at it from a in the news level, where you're constantly seeing all these security products being offered. The reality is, is that the majority of companies in the US actually don't have a security staff. They maybe have an IT guy, just one and he's not a security guy. So he's having to manage helping his company have the resources he needs, but also then he's overwhelmed with all the security things that are happening in the world. So I think really time and resources are the pain points right now. >> Awesome. James, any comment? >> Yeah, just to add to what Zach said, these IT guys they're put under pressure. These Fortinet devices, they could be used in a company that just recently transitioned to a lot of work from home because of COVID and whatnot. And they put these devices online and now they're under pressure to keep them up to date, keep them configured and keep them patched. But anytime you make a change to a system, there's a risk that it goes down. And if the employees can't VPN or log in from home anymore, then they can't work. The company can't make money. So it's really a balancing act for that IT guy to make sure that his environment is up to date, while also making sure it's not taken down for any reason. So it's a challenging position to be in and prioritizing what you need to fix and when is definitely a difficult problem. >> Well, this is a great example, this news article and this. Fortinet news highlights the Horizon3.ai advantage and what you guys do. I think this is going to be the table stakes for security in the industry as people have to build their own, I call it the militia. You got to have your own testing. (laughing) You got to have your own way to help protect yourself. And one of them is to know what's going on all the time every day, today and tomorrow. So congratulations and thanks for sharing the exploit here on this zero-day flaw that was exposed. Thanks for for coming on. >> Yeah, thanks for having us. >> Thank you. >> Okay. This is theCube here in Palo Alto, California. I'm John Furrier. You're watching security update, security news, breaking down the exploit, the zero-day flaw that was exploited at least one attack that was documented. Fortinet devices now identified and patched. This is theCube. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(gentle upbeat music) >> Welcome back everyone, to "theCUBE"'s live stage performance here in Palo Alto, California at "theCUBE" Studios. I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante, kicking off our first inaugural Supercloud event. It's an editorial event, we wanted to bring together the best in the business, the smartest, the biggest, the up-and-coming startups, venture capitalists, everybody, to weigh in on this new Supercloud trend, this structural change in the cloud computing business. We're about to run the Ecosystem Speaks, which is a bunch of pre-recorded companies that wanted to get their voices on the record, so stay tuned for the rest of the day. We'll be replaying all that content and they're going to be having some really good commentary and hear what they have to say. I had a chance to interview and so did Dave. Dave, this is our closing segment where we kind of unpack everything or kind of digest and report. So much to kind of digest from the conversations today, a wide range of commentary from Supercloud operating system to developers who are in charge to maybe it's an ops problem or maybe Oracle's a Supercloud. I mean, that was debated. So so much discussion, lot to unpack. What was your favorite moments? >> Well, before I get to that, I think, I go back to something that happened at re:Invent last year. Nick Sturiale came up, Steve Mullaney from Aviatrix; we're going to hear from him shortly in the Ecosystem Speaks. Nick Sturiale's VC said "it's happening"! And what he was talking about is this ecosystem is exploding. They're building infrastructure or capabilities on top of the CapEx infrastructure. So, I think it is happening. I think we confirmed today that Supercloud is a thing. It's a very immature thing. And I think the other thing, John is that, it seems to me that the further you go up the stack, the weaker the business case gets for doing Supercloud. We heard from Marianna Tessel, it's like, "Eh, you know, we can- it was easier to just do it all on one cloud." This is a point that, Adrian Cockcroft just made on the panel and so I think that when you break out the pieces of the stack, I think very clearly the infrastructure layer, what we heard from Confluent and HashiCorp, and certainly VMware, there's a real problem there. There's a real need at the infrastructure layer and then even at the data layer, I think Benoit Dageville did a great job of- You know, I was peppering him with all my questions, which I basically was going through, the Supercloud definition and they ticked the box on pretty much every one of 'em as did, by the way Ali Ghodsi you know, the big difference there is the philosophy of Republicans and Democrats- got open versus closed, not to apply that to either one side, but you know what I mean! >> And the similarities are probably greater than differences. >> Berkely, I would probably put them on the- >> Yeah, we'll put them on the Democrat side we'll make Snowflake the Republicans. But so- but as we say there's a lot of similarities as well in terms of what their objectives are. So, I mean, I thought it was a great program and a really good start to, you know, an industry- You brought up the point about the industry consortium, asked Kit Colbert- >> Yep. >> If he thought that was something that was viable and what'd they say? That hyperscale should lead it? >> Yeah, they said hyperscale should lead it and there also should be an industry consortium to get the voices out there. And I think VMware is very humble in how they're putting out their white paper because I think they know that they can't do it all and that they do not have a great track record relative to cloud. And I think, but they have a great track record of loyal installed base ops people using VMware vSphere all the time. >> Yeah. >> So I think they need a catapult moment where they can catapult to the cloud native which they've been working on for years under Raghu and the team. So the question on VMware is in the light of Broadcom, okay, acquisition of VMware, this is an opportunity or it might not be an opportunity or it might be a spin-out or something, I just think VMware's got way too much engineering culture to be ignored, Dave. And I think- well, I'm going to watch this very closely because they can pull off some sort of rallying moment. I think they could. And then you hear the upstarts like Platform9, Rafay Systems and others they're all like, "Yes, we need to unify behind something. There needs to be some sort of standard". You know, we heard the argument of you know, more standards bodies type thing. So, it's interesting, maybe "theCUBE" could be that but we're going to certainly keep the conversation going. >> I thought one of the most memorable statements was Vittorio who said we- for VMware, we want our cake, we want to eat it too and we want to lose weight. So they have a lot of that aspirations there! (John laughs) >> And then I thought, Adrian Cockcroft said you know, the devs, they want to get married. They were marrying everybody, and then the ops team, they have to deal with the divorce. >> Yeah. >> And I thought that was poignant. It's like, they want consistency, they want standards, they got to be able to scale And Lori MacVittie, I'm not sure you agree with this, I'd have to think about it, but she was basically saying, all we've talked about is devs devs devs for the last 10 years, going forward we're going to be talking about ops. >> Yeah, and I think one of the things I learned from this day and looking back, and some kind of- I've been sauteing through all the interviews. If you zoom out, for me it was the epiphany of developers are still in charge. And I've said, you know, the developers are doing great, it's an ops security thing. Not sure I see that the way I was seeing before. I think what I learned was the refactoring pattern that's emerging, In Sik Rhee brought this up from Vertex Ventures with Marianna Tessel, it's a nuanced point but I think he's right on which is the pattern that's emerging is developers want ease-of-use tooling, they're driving the change and I think the developers in the devs ops ethos- it's never going to be separate. It's going to be DevOps. That means developers are driving operations and then security. So what I learned was it's not ops teams leveling up, it's devs redefining what ops is. >> Mm. And I think that to me is where Supercloud's going to be interesting- >> Forcing that. >> Yeah. >> Forcing the change because the structural change is open sources thriving, devs are still in charge and they still want more developers, Vittorio "we need more developers", right? So the developers are in charge and that's clear. Now, if that happens- if you believe that to be true the domino effect of that is going to be amazing because then everyone who gets on the wrong side of history, on the ops and security side, is going to be fighting a trend that may not be fight-able, you know, it might be inevitable. And so the winners are the ones that are refactoring their business like Snowflake. Snowflake is a data warehouse that had nothing to do with Amazon at first. It was the developers who said "I'm going to refactor data warehouse on AWS". That is a developer-driven refactorization and a business model. So I think that's the pattern I'm seeing is that this concept refactoring, patterns and the developer trajectory is critical. >> I thought there was another great comment. Maribel Lopez, her Lord of the Rings comment: "there will be no one ring to rule them all". Now at the same time, Kit Colbert, you know what we asked him straight out, "are you the- do you want to be the, the Supercloud OS?" and he basically said, "yeah, we do". Now, of course they're confined to their world, which is a pretty substantial world. I think, John, the reason why Maribel is so correct is security. I think security's a really hard problem to solve. You've got cloud as the first layer of defense and now you've got multiple clouds, multiple layers of defense, multiple shared responsibility models. You've got different tools for XDR, for identity, for governance, for privacy all within those different clouds. I mean, that really is a confusing picture. And I think the hardest- one of the hardest parts of Supercloud to solve. >> Yeah, and I thought the security founder Gee Rittenhouse, Piyush Sharrma from Accurics, which sold to Tenable, and Tony Kueh, former head of product at VMware. >> Right. >> Who's now an investor kind of looking for his next gig or what he is going to do next. He's obviously been extremely successful. They brought up the, the OS factor. Another point that they made I thought was interesting is that a lot of the things to do to solve the complexity is not doable. >> Yeah. >> It's too much work. So managed services might field the bit. So, and Chris Hoff mentioned on the Clouderati segment that the higher level services being a managed service and differentiating around the service could be the key competitive advantage for whoever does it. >> I think the other thing is Chris Hoff said "yeah, well, Web 3, metaverse, you know, DAO, Superclouds" you know, "Stupercloud" he called it and this bring up- It resonates because one of the criticisms that Charles Fitzgerald laid on us was, well, it doesn't help to throw out another term. I actually think it does help. And I think the reason it does help is because it's getting people to think. When you ask people about Supercloud, they automatically- it resonates with them. They play back what they think is the future of cloud. So Supercloud really talks to the future of cloud. There's a lot of aspects to it that need to be further defined, further thought out and we're getting to the point now where we- we can start- begin to say, okay that is Supercloud or that isn't Supercloud. >> I think that's really right on. I think Supercloud at the end of the day, for me from the simplest way to describe it is making sure that the developer experience is so good that the operations just happen. And Marianna Tessel said, she's investing in making their developer experience high velocity, very easy. So if you do that, you have to run on premise and on the cloud. So hybrid really is where Supercloud is going right now. It's not multi-cloud. Multi-cloud was- that was debunked on this session today. I thought that was clear. >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean I think- >> It's not about multi-cloud. It's about operationally seamless operations across environments, public cloud to on-premise, basically. >> I think we got consensus across the board that multi-cloud, you know, is a symptom Chuck Whitten's thing of multi-cloud by default versus multi- multi-cloud has not been a strategy, Kit Colbert said, up until the last couple of years. Yeah, because people said, "oh we got all these multiple clouds, what do we do with it?" and we got this mess that we have to solve. Whereas, I think Supercloud is something that is a strategy and then the other nuance that I keep bringing up is it's industries that are- as part of their digital transformation, are building clouds. Now, whether or not they become superclouds, I'm not convinced. I mean, what Goldman Sachs is doing, you know, with AWS, what Walmart's doing with Azure connecting their on-prem tools to those public clouds, you know, is that a supercloud? I mean, we're going to have to go back and really look at that definition. Or is it just kind of a SAS that spans on-prem and cloud. So, as I said, the further you go up the stack, the business case seems to wane a little bit but there's no question in my mind that from an infrastructure standpoint, to your point about operations, there's a real requirement for super- what we call Supercloud. >> Well, we're going to keep the conversation going, Dave. I want to put a shout out to our founding supporters of this initiative. Again, we put this together really fast kind of like a pilot series, an inaugural event. We want to have a face-to-face event as an industry event. Want to thank the founding supporters. These are the people who donated their time, their resource to contribute content, ideas and some cash, not everyone has committed some financial contribution but we want to recognize the names here. VMware, Intuit, Red Hat, Snowflake, Aisera, Alteryx, Confluent, Couchbase, Nutanix, Rafay Systems, Skyhigh Security, Aviatrix, Zscaler, Platform9, HashiCorp, F5 and all the media partners. Without their support, this wouldn't have happened. And there are more people that wanted to weigh in. There was more demand than we could pull off. We'll certainly continue the Supercloud conversation series here on "theCUBE" and we'll add more people in. And now, after this session, the Ecosystem Speaks session, we're going to run all the videos of the big name companies. We have the Nutanix CEOs weighing in, Aviatrix to name a few. >> Yeah. Let me, let me chime in, I mean you got Couchbase talking about Edge, Platform 9's going to be on, you know, everybody, you know Insig was poopoo-ing Oracle, but you know, Oracle and Azure, what they did, two technical guys, developers are coming on, we dig into what they did. Howie Xu from Zscaler, Paula Hansen is going to talk about going to market in the multi-cloud world. You mentioned Rajiv, the CEO of Nutanix, Ramesh is going to talk about multi-cloud infrastructure. So that's going to run now for, you know, quite some time here and some of the pre-record so super excited about that and I just want to thank the crew. I hope guys, I hope you have a list of credits there's too many of you to mention, but you know, awesome jobs really appreciate the work that you did in a very short amount of time. >> Well, I'm excited. I learned a lot and my takeaway was that Supercloud's a thing, there's a kind of sense that people want to talk about it and have real conversations, not BS or FUD. They want to have real substantive conversations and we're going to enable that on "theCUBE". Dave, final thoughts for you. >> Well, I mean, as I say, we put this together very quickly. It was really a phenomenal, you know, enlightening experience. I think it confirmed a lot of the concepts and the premises that we've put forth, that David Floyer helped evolve, that a lot of these analysts have helped evolve, that even Charles Fitzgerald with his antagonism helped to really sharpen our knives. So, you know, thank you Charles. And- >> I like his blog, by the I'm a reader- >> Yeah, absolutely. And it was great to be back in Palo Alto. It was my first time back since pre-COVID, so, you know, great job. >> All right. I want to thank all the crew and everyone. Thanks for watching this first, inaugural Supercloud event. We are definitely going to be doing more of these. So stay tuned, maybe face-to-face in person. I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante now for the Ecosystem chiming in, and they're going to speak and share their thoughts here with "theCUBE" our first live stage performance event in our studio. Thanks for watching. (gentle upbeat music)

(bright upbeat music) >> Welcome back, everyone, to the "Supercloud 22." I'm John Furrier, host of "The Cube." This is the Cloud-erati panel, the distinguished experts who have been there from day one, watching the cloud grow, from building clouds, and all open source stuff as well. Just great stuff. Good friends of "The Cube," and great to introduce back on "The Cube," Adrian Cockcroft, formerly with Netflix, formerly AWS, retired, now commentating here in "The Cube," as well as other events. Great to see you back out there, Adrian. Lori MacVittie, Cloud Evangelist with F5, also wrote a great blog post on supercloud, as well as Dave Vellante as well, setting up the supercloud conversation, which we're going to get into, and Chris Hoff, who's the CTO and CSO of LastPass who's been building clouds, and we know him from "The Cube" before with security and cloud commentary. Welcome, all, back to "The Cube" and supercloud. >> Thanks, John. >> Hi. >> All right, Lori, we'll start with you to get things going. I want to try to sit back, as you guys are awesome experts, and involved from building, and in the trenches, on the front lines, and Adrian's coming out of retirement, but Lori, you wrote the post setting the table on supercloud. Let's start with you. What is supercloud? What is it evolving into? What is the north star, from your perspective? >> Well, I don't think there's a north star yet. I think that's one of the reasons I wrote it, because I had a clear picture of this in my mind, but over the past, I don't know, three, four years, I keep seeing, in research, my own and others', complexity, multi-cloud. "We can't manage it. They're all different. "We have trouble. What's going on? "We can't do anything right." And so digging into it, you start looking into, "Well, what do you mean by complexity?" Well, security. Migration, visibility, performance. The same old problems we've always had. And so, supercloud is a concept that is supposed to overlay all of the clouds and normalize it. That's really what we're talking about, is yet another abstraction layer that would provide some consistency that would allow you to do the same security and monitor things correctly. Cornell University actually put out a definition way back in 2016. And they said, "It's an architecture that enables migration "across different zones or providers," and I think that's important, "and provides interfaces to everything, "makes it consistent, and normalizes the network," basically brings it all together, but it also extends to private clouds. Sometimes we forget about that piece of it, and I think that's important in this, so that all your clouds look the same. So supercloud, big layer on top, makes everything wonderful. It's unicorns again. >> It's interesting. We had multiple perspectives. (mumbles) was like Snowflake, who built on top of AWS. Jerry Chan, who we heard from earlier today, Greylock Penn's "Castles in the Cloud" saying, "Hey, you can have a moat, "you can build an advantage and have differentiation," so startups are starting to build on clouds, that's the native cloud view, and then, of course, they get success and they go to all the other clouds 'cause they got customers in the ecosystem, but it seems that all the cloud players, Chris, you commented before we came on today, is that they're all fighting for the customer's workloads on their infrastructure. "Come bring your stuff over to here, "and we'll make it run better." And all your developers are going to be good. Is there a problem? I mean, or is this something else happening here? Is there a real problem? >> Well, I think the north star's over there, by the way, Lori. (laughing) >> Oh, there it is. >> Right there. The supercloud north star. So indeed I think there are opportunities. Whether you call them problems or not, John, I think is to be determined. Most companies have, especially if they're a large enterprise, whether or not they've got an investment in private cloud or not, have spent time really trying to optimize their engineering and workload placement on a single cloud. And that, regardless of your choice, as we take the big three, whether it's Amazon, Google, or Microsoft, each of them have their pros and cons for various types of workloads. And so you'll see a lot of folks optimizing for a particular cloud, and it takes a huge effort up and down the stack to just get a single cloud right. That doesn't take into consideration integrations with software as a service, instantiated, oftentimes, on top of infrastructure of the service that you need to supplement where the obstruction layer ends in infrastructure of the service. You've seen most IS players starting to now move up-chain, as we predicted years ago, to platform as a service, but platforms of various types. So I definitely see it as an opportunity. Previous employers have had multiple clouds, but they were very specifically optimized for the types of workloads, for example, in, let's say, AWS versus GCP, based on the need for different types and optimized compute platforms that each of those providers ran. We never, in that particular case, thought about necessarily running the same workloads across both clouds, because they had different pricing models, different security models, et cetera. And so the challenge is really coming down to the fact that, what is the cost benefit analysis of thinking about multi-cloud when you can potentially engineer the resiliency or redundancy, all the in-season "ilities" that you might need to factor into your deployments on a single cloud, if they are investing at the pace in which they are? So I think it's an opportunity, and it's one that continues to evolve, but this just reminds me, your comments remind me, of when we were talking about OpenStack versus AWS. "Oh, if there were only APIs that existed "that everybody could use," and you saw how that went. So I think that the challenge there is, what is the impetus for a singular cloud provider, any of the big three, deciding that they're going to abstract to a single abstraction layer and not be able to differentiate from the competitors? >> Yeah, and that differentiation's going to be big. I mean, assume that the clouds aren't going to stay still like AWS and just not stop innovating. We see the devs are doing great, Adrian, open source is bigger and better than ever, but now that's been commercialized into enterprise. It's an ops problem. So to Chris's point, the cost benefit analysis is interesting, because do companies have to spin up multiple operations teams, each with specialized training and tooling for the clouds that they're using, and does that open up a can of worms, or is that a good thing? I mean, can you design for this? I mean, is there an architecture or taxonomy that makes it work, or is it just the cart before the horse, the solution before the problem? >> Yeah, well, I think that if you look at any large vendor... Sorry, large customer, they've got a bit of everything already. If you're big enough, you've bought something from everybody at some point. So then you're trying to rationalize that, and trying to make it make sense. And I think there's two ways of looking at multi-cloud or supercloud, and one is that the... And practically, people go best of breed. They say, "Okay, I'm going to get my email "from Google or Microsoft. "I'm going to run my applications on AWS. "Maybe I'm going to do some AI machine learning on Google, "'cause those are the strengths of the platforms." So people tend to go where the strength is. So that's multi-cloud, 'cause you're using multiple clouds, and you still have to move data and make sure they're all working together. But then what Lori's talking about is trying to make them all look the same and trying to get all the security architectures to be the same and put this magical layer, this unicorn magical layer that, "Let's make them all look the same." And this is something that the CIOs have wanted for years, and they keep trying to buy it, and you can sell it, but the trouble is it's really hard to deliver. And I think, when I go back to some old friends of ours at Enstratius who had... And back in the early days of cloud, said, "Well, we'll just do an API that abstracts "all the cloud APIs into one layer." Enstratius ended up being sold to Dell a few years ago, and the problem they had was that... They didn't have any problem selling it. The problem they had was, a year later, when it came up for renewal, the developers all done end runs around it were ignoring it, and the CIOs weren't seeing usage. So you can sell it, but can you actually implement it and make it work well enough that it actually becomes part of your core architecture without, from an operations point of view, without having the developers going directly to their favorite APIs around them? And I'm not sure that you can really lock an organization down enough to get them onto a layer like that. So that's the way I see it. >> You just defined- >> You just defined shadow shadow IT. (laughing) That's pretty- (crosstalk) >> Shadow shadow IT, yeah. >> Yeah, shadow shadow it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I mean, this brings up the question, I mean, is there really a problem? I mean, I guess we'll just jump to it. What is supercloud? If you can have the magic outcome, what is it? Enstratius rendered in with automation? The security issues? Kubernetes is hot. What is the supercloud dream? I guess that's the question. >> I think it's got easier than it was five, 10 years ago. Kubernetes gives you a bunch of APIs that are common across lots of different areas, things like Snowflake or MongoDB Atlas. There are SaaS-based services, which are across multiple clouds from vendors that you've picked. So it's easier to build things which are more portable, but I still don't think it's easy to build this magic API that makes them all look the same. And I think that you're going to have leaky abstractions and security being... Getting the security right's going to be really much more complex than people think. >> What about specialty superclouds, Chris? What's your view on that? >> Yeah, I think what Adrian is alluding to, those leaky abstractions, are interesting, especially from the security perspective, 'cause I think what you see is if you were to happen to be able to thin slice across a set of specific types of workloads, there is a high probability given today that, at least on two of the three major clouds, you could get SaaS providers that sit on those same infrastructure of the service clouds for you, string them together, and have a service that technically is abstracted enough from the things you care about to work on one, two, or three, maybe not all of them, but most SaaS providers in the security space, or identity space, data space, for example, coexist on at least Microsoft and AWS, if not all three, with Google. And so you could technically abstract a service to the point that you let that level of abstract... Like Lori said, no computer science problem could not be... So, no computer science problem can't be solved with more layers of abstraction or misdirection... Or redirection. And in that particular case, if you happen to pick the right vendors that run on all three clouds, you could possibly get close. But then what that really talks about is then, if you built your seven-layer dip model, then you really have specialty superclouds spanning across infrastructure of the service clouds. One for your identity apps, one for data and data layers, to normalize that, one for security, but at what cost? Because you're going to be charged not for that service as a whole, but based on compute resources, based on how these vendors charge across each cloud. So again, that cost-benefit ratio might start being something that is rather imposing from a budgetary perspective. >> Lori, weigh in on this, because the enterprise people love to solve complexity with more complexity. Here, we need to go the other way. It's a commodity. So there has to be a better way. >> I think I'm hearing two fundamental assumptions. One, that a supercloud would force the existing big three to implement some sort of equal API. Don't agree with that. There's no business case for that. There's no reason that could compel them to do that. Otherwise, we would've convinced them to do that, what? 10, 15 years ago when we said we need to be interoperable. So it's not going to happen there. They don't have a good reason to do that. There's no business justification for that. The other presumption, I think, is that we would... That it's more about the services, the differentiated services, that are offered by all of these particular providers, as opposed to treating the core IaaS as the commodity it is. It's compute, it's some storage, it's some networking. Look at that piece. Now, pull those together by... And it's not OpenStack. That's not the answer, it wasn't the answer, it's not the answer now, but something that can actually pull those together and abstract it at a different layer. So cloud providers don't have to change, 'cause they're not going to change, but if someone else were to build that architecture to say, "all right, I'm going to treat all of this compute "so you can run your workloads," as Chris pointed out, "in the best place possible. "And we'll help you do that "by being able to provide those cost benefit analysis, "'What's the best performance, what are you doing,' "And then provide that as a layer." So I think that's really where supercloud is going, 'cause I think that's what a lot of the market actually wants in terms of where they want to run their workloads, because we're seeing that they want to run workloads at the edge, "a lot closer to me," which is yet another factor that we have to consider, and how are you going to be moving individual workloads around? That's the holy grail. Let's move individual workloads to where they're the best performance, the security, cost optimized, and then one layer up. >> Yeah, I think so- >> John Considine, who ultimately ran CloudSwitch, that sold to Verizon, as well as Tom Gillis, who built Bracket, are both rolling in their graves, 'cause what you just described was exactly that. (Lori laughing) Well, they're not even dead yet, so I can't say they're rolling in their graves. Sorry, Tom. Sorry, John. >> Well, how do hyperscalers keep their advantage with all this? I mean, to that point. >> Native services and managed services on top of it. Look how many flavors of managed Kubernetes you have. So you have a choice. Roll your own, or go with a managed service, and then differentiate based on the ability to take away and simplify some of that complexity. Doesn't mean it's more secure necessarily, but I do think we're seeing opportunities where those guys are fighting tooth and nail to keep you on a singular cloud, even though, to Lori's point, I agree, I don't think it's about standardized APIs, 'cause I think that's never going to happen. I do think, though, that SaaS-y supercloud model that we were talking about, layering SaaS that happens to span all the three infrastructure of the service are probably more in line with what Lori was talking about. But I do think that portability of workload is given to you today within lots of ways. But again, how much do you manage, and how much performance do you give up by running additional abstraction layers? And how much security do you give up by having to roll your own and manage that? Because the whole point was, in many cases... Cloud is using other people's computers, so in many cases, I want to manage as little of it as I possibly can. >> I like this whole SaaS angle, because if you had the old days, you're on Amazon Web Services, hey, if you build a SaaS application that runs on Amazon, you're all great, you're born in the cloud, just like that generations of startups. Great. Now when you have this super pass layer, as Dave Vellante was riffing on his analysis, and Lori, you were getting into this pass layer that's kind of like SaaS-y, what's the SaaS equation look like? Because that, to me, sounds like a supercloud version of saying, "I have a workload that runs on all the clouds equally." I just don't think that's ever going to happen. I agree with you, Chris, on that one. But I do see that you can have an abstraction that says, "Hey, I don't really want to get in the weeds. "I don't want to spend a lot of ops time on this. "I just want it to run effectively, and magic happens," or, as you said, some layer there. How does that work? How do you see this super pass layer, if anything, enabling a different SaaS game? >> I think you hit on it there. The last like 10 or so years, we've been all focused on developers and developer productivity, and it's all about the developer experience, and it's got to be good for them, 'cause they're the kings. And I think the next 10 years are going to be very focused on operations, because once you start scaling out, it's not about developers. They can deliver fast or slow, it doesn't matter, but if you can't scale it out, then you've got a real problem. So I think that's an important part of it, is really, what is the ops experience, and what is the best way to get those costs down? And this would serve that purpose if it was done right, which, we can argue about whether that's possible or not, but I don't have to implement it, so I can say it's possible. >> Well, are we going to be getting into infrastructure as code moves into "everything is code," security, data, (laughs) applications is code? I mean, "blank" is code, fill in the blank. (Lori laughing) >> Yeah, we're seeing more of that with things like CDK and Pulumi, where you are actually coding up using a real language rather than the death by YAML or whatever. How much YAML can you take? But actually having a real language so you're not trying to do things in parsing languages. So I think that's an interesting trend. You're getting some interesting templates, and I like what... I mean, the counterexample is that if you just go deep on one vendor, then maybe you can go faster and it is simpler. And one of my favorite vendor... Favorite customers right now that I've been talking to is Liberty Mutual. Went very deep and serverless first on AWS. They're just doing everything there, and they're using CDK Patterns to do it, and they're going extremely fast. There's a book coming out called "The Value Flywheel" by Dave Anderson, it's coming out in a few months, to just detail what they're doing, but that's the counterargument. If you could pick one vendor, you can go faster, you can get that vendor to do more for you, and maybe get a bigger discount so you're not splitting your discounts across vendors. So that's one aspect of it. But I think, fundamentally, you're going to find the CIOs and the ops people generally don't like sitting on one vendor. And if that single vendor is a horizontal platform that's trying to make all the clouds look the same, now you're locked into whatever that platform was. You've still got a platform there. There's still something. So I think that's always going to be something that the CIOs want, but the developers are always going to just pick whatever the best tool for building the thing is. And a analogy here is that the developers are dating and getting married, and then the operations people are running the family and getting divorced. And all the bad parts of that cycle are in the divorce end of it. You're trying to get out of a vendor, there's lawyers, it's just a big mess. >> Who's the lawyer in this example? (crosstalk) >> Well... (laughing) >> Great example. (crosstalk) >> That's why ops people don't like lock-in, because they're the ones trying to unlock. They aren't the ones doing the lock-in. They're the ones unlocking, when developers, if you separate the two, are the ones who are going, picking, having the fun part of it, going, trying a new thing. So they're chasing a shiny object, and then the ops people are trying to untangle themselves from the remains of that shiny object a few years later. So- >> Aren't we- >> One way of fixing that is to push it all together and make it more DevOps-y. >> Yeah, that's right. >> But that's trying to put all the responsibilities in one place, like more continuous improvement, but... >> Chris, what's your reaction to that? Because you're- >> No, that's exactly what I was going to bring up, yeah, John. And 'cause we keep saying "devs," "dev," and "ops" and I've heard somewhere you can glue those two things together. Heck, you could even include "sec" in the middle of it, and "DevSecOps." So what's interesting about what Adrian's saying though, too, is I think this has a lot to do with how you structure your engineering teams and how you think about development versus operations and security. So I'm building out a team now that very much makes use of, thanks to my brilliant VP of Engineering, a "Team Topologies" approach, which is a very streamlined and product oriented way of thinking about, for example, in engineering, if you think about team structures, you might have people that build the front end, build the middle tier, and the back end, and then you have a product that needs to make use of all three components in some form. So just from getting stuff done, their ability then has to tie to three different groups, versus building a team that's streamlined that ends up having front end, middleware, and backend folks that understand and share standards but are able to uncork the velocity that's required to do that. So if you think about that, and not just from an engineering development perspective, but then you couple in operations as a foundational layer that services them with embedded capabilities, we're putting engineers and operations teams embedded in those streamlined teams so that they can run at the velocity that they need to, they can do continuous integration, they can do continuous deployment. And then we added CS, which is continuously secure, continuous security. So instead of having giant, centralized teams, we're thinking there's a core team, for example, a foundational team, that services platform, makes sure all the trains are running on time, that we're doing what we need to do foundationally to make the environments fully dev and operator and security people functional. But then ultimately, we don't have these big, monolithic teams that get into turf wars. So, to Adrian's point about, the operators don't like to be paned in, well, they actually have a say, ultimately, in how they architect, deploy, manage, plan, build, and operate those systems. But at the same point in time, we're all looking at that problem across those teams and go... Like if one streamline team says, "I really want to go run on Azure, "because I like their services better," the reality is the foundational team has a larger vote versus opinion on whether or not, functionally, we can satisfy all of the requirements of the other team. Now, they may make a fantastic business case and we play rock, paper, scissors, and we do that. Right now, that hasn't really happened. We look at the balance of AWS, we are picking SaaS-y, supercloud vendors that will, by the way, happen to run on three platforms, if we so choose to expand there. So we have a similar interface, similar capability, similar processes, but we've made the choice at LastPass to go all in on AWS currently, with respect to how we deliver our products, for all the reasons we just talked about. But I do think that operations model and how you build your teams is extremely important. >> Yeah, and to that point- >> And has the- (crosstalk) >> The vendors themselves need optionality to the customer, what you're saying. So, "I'm going to go fast, "but I need to have that optionality." I guess the question I have for you guys is, what is today's trade-off? So if the decision point today is... First of all, I love the go-fast model on one cloud. I think that's my favorite when I look at all this, and then with the option, knowing that I'm going to have the option to go to multiple clouds. But everybody wants lock-in on the vendor side. Is that scale, is that data advantage? I mean, so the lock-in's a good question, and then also the trade-offs. What do people have to do today to go on a supercloud journey to have an ideal architecture and taxonomy, and what's the right trade-offs today? >> I think that the- Sorry, just put a comment and then let Lori get a word in, but there's a lot of... A lot of the market here is you're building a product, and that product is a SaaS product, and it needs to run somewhere. And the customers that you're going to... To get the full market, you need to go across multiple suppliers, most people doing AWS and Azure, and then with Google occasionally for some people. But that, I think, has become the pattern that most of the large SaaS platforms that you'd want to build out of, 'cause that's the fast way of getting something that's going to be stable at scale, it's got functionality, you'd have to go invest in building it and running it. Those platforms are just multi-cloud platforms, they're running across them. So Snowflake, for example, has to figure out how to make their stuff work on more than one cloud. I mean, they started on one, but they're going across clouds. And I think that that is just the way it's going to be, because you're not going to get a broad enough view into the market, because there isn't a single... AWS doesn't have 100% of the market. It's maybe a bit more than them, but Azure has got a pretty solid set of markets where it is strong, and it's market by market. So in some areas, different people in some places in the world, and different vertical markets, you'll find different preferences. And if you want to be across all of them with your data product, or whatever your SaaS product is, you're just going to have to figure this out. So in some sense, the supercloud story plays best with those SaaS providers like the Snowflakes of this world, I think. >> Lori? >> Yeah, I think the SaaS product... Identity, whatever, you're going to have specialized. SaaS, superclouds. We already see that emerging. Identity is becoming like this big SaaS play that crosses all clouds. It's not just for one. So you get an evolution going on where, yes, I mean, every vendor who provides some kind of specific functionality is going to have to build out and be multi-cloud, as it were. It's got to work equally across them. And the challenge, then, for them is to make it simple for both operators and, if required, dev. And maybe that's the other lesson moving forward. You can build something that is heaven for ops, but if the developers won't use it, well, then you're not going to get it adopted. But if you make it heaven for the developers, the ops team may not be able to keep it secure, keep everything. So maybe we have to start focusing on both, make it friendly for both, at least. Maybe it won't be the perfect experience, but gee, at least make it usable for both sides of the equation so that everyone can actually work in concert, like Chris was saying. A more comprehensive, cohesive approach to delivery and deployment. >> All right, well, wrapping up here, I want to just get one final comment from you guys, if you don't mind. What does supercloud look like in five years? What's the Nirvana, what's the steady state of supercloud in five to 10 years? Or say 10 years, make it easier. (crosstalk) Five to 10 years. Chris, we'll start with you. >> Wow. >> Supercloud, what's it look like? >> Geez. A magic pane, a single pane of glass. (laughs) >> Yeah, I think- >> Single glass of pain. >> Yeah, a single glass of pain. Thank you. You stole my line. Well, not mine, but that's the one I was going to use. Yeah, I think what is really fascinating is ultimately, to answer that question, I would reflect on market consolidation and market dynamics that happens even in the SaaS space. So we will see SaaS companies combining in focal areas to be able to leverage the positions, let's say, in the identity space that somebody has built to provide a set of compelling services that help abstract that identity problem or that security problem or that instrumentation and observability problem. So take your favorite vendors today. I think what we'll end up seeing is more consolidation in SaaS offerings that run on top of infrastructure of the service offerings to where a supercloud might look like something I described before. You have the combination of your favorite interoperable identity, observability, security, orchestration platforms run across them. They're sold as a stack, whether it be co-branded by an enterprise vendor that sells all of that and manages it for you or not. But I do think that... You talked about, I think you said, "Is this an innovator's dilemma?" No, I think it's an integrator's dilemma, as it has always ultimately been. As soon as you get from Genesis to Bespoke Build to product to then commoditization, the cycle starts anew. And I think we've gotten past commoditization, and we're looking at niche areas. So I see just the evolution, not necessarily a revolution, of what we're dealing with today as we see more consolidation in the marketplace. >> Lori, what's your take? Five years, 10 years, what does supercloud look like? >> Part of me wants to take the pie in the sky unicorn approach. "No, it will be beautiful. "One button, and things will happen," but I've seen this cycle many times before, and that's not going to happen. And I think Chris has got it pretty close to what I see already evolving. Those different kinds of super services, basically. And that's really what we're talking about. We call them SaaS, but they're... X is a service. Everything is a service, and it's really a supercloud that can run anywhere, but it presents a different interface, because, well, it's easier. And I think that's where we're going to go, and that's just going to get more refined. And yes, a lot of consolidation, especially on the observability side, but that's also starting to consume the security side, which is really interesting to watch. So that could be a little different supercloud coming on there that's really focused on specific types of security, at least, that we'll layer across, and then we'll just hook them all together. It's an API first world, and it seems like that's going to be our standard for the next while of how we integrate everything. So superclouds or APIs. >> Awesome. Adrian... Adrian, take us home. >> Yeah, sure. >> What's your- I think, and just picking up on Lori's point that these are web services, meaning that you can just call them from anywhere, they don't have to run everything in one place, they can stitch it together, and that's really meant... It's somewhat composable. So in practice, people are going to be composable. Can they compose their applications on multiple platforms? But I think the interesting thing here is what the vendors do, and what I'm seeing is vendors running software on other vendors. So you have Google building platforms that, then, they will support on AWS and Azure and vice versa. You've got AWS's distro of Kubernetes, which they now give you as a distro so you can run it on another platform. So I think that trend's going to continue, and it's going to be, possibly, you pick, say, an AWS or a Google software stack, but you don't run it all on AWS, you run it in multiple places. Yeah, and then the other thing is the third tier, second, third tier vendors, like, I mean, what's IBM doing? I think in five years time, IBM is going to be a SaaS vendor running on the other clouds. I mean, they're already halfway there. To be a bit more controversial, I guess it's always fun to... Like I don't work for a corporate entity now. No one tells me what I can say. >> Bring it on. >> How long can Google keep losing a billion dollars a quarter? They've either got to figure out how to make money out of this thing, or they'll end up basically being a software stack on another cloud platform as their, likely, actual way they can make money on it. Because you've got to... And maybe Oracle, is that a viable cloud platform that... You've got to get to some level of viability. And I think the second, third tier of vendors in five, 10 years are going to be running on the primary platform. And I think, just the other final thing that's really driving this right now. If you try and place an order right now for a piece of equipment for your data center, key pieces of equipment are a year out. It's like trying to buy a new fridge from like Sub-Zero or something like that. And it's like, it's a year. You got to wait for these things. Any high quality piece of equipment. So you go to deploy in your data center, and it's like, "I can't get stuff in my data center. "Like, the key pieces I need, I can't deploy a whole system. "We didn't get bits and pieces of it." So people are going to be cobbling together, or they're going, "No, this is going to cloud, because the cloud vendors "have a much stronger supply chain to just be able "to give you the system you need. "They've got the capacity." So I think we're going to see some pandemic and supply chain induced forced cloud migrations, just because you can't build stuff anymore outside the- >> We got to accelerate supercloud, 'cause they have the supply. They are the chain. >> That's super smart. That's the benefit of going last. So I'm going to scoop in real quick. I can't believe we can call this "Web3 Supercloud," because none of us said "Web3." Don't forget DAO. (crosstalk) (indistinct) You have blockchain, blockchain superclouds. I mean, there's some very interesting distributed computing stuff there, but we'll have to do- >> (crosstalk) We're going to call that the "Cubeverse." The "Cubeverse" is coming. >> Oh, the "Cubeverse." All right. >> We will be... >> That's very meta. >> In the metaverse, Cubeverse soon. >> "Stupor cloud," perhaps. But anyway, great points, Adrian and Lori. Loved it. >> Chris, great to see you. Adrian, Lori, thanks for coming on. We've known each other for a long time. You guys are part of the cloud-erati, the group that has been in there from day one, and watched it evolve, and you get the scar tissue to prove it, and the experience. So thank you so much for sharing your commentary. We'll roll this up and make it open to everybody as additional content. We'll call this the "outtakes," the longer version. But really appreciate your time, thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thanks so much. >> Okay, we'll be back with more "Supercloud 22" right after this. (bright upbeat music)

(gentle music) >> We're back at the Seaport in Boston. I'm Dave Vellante with my co-host, Paul Gillin. Tracie Zenti is here. She's the Director of Global Partner Management at Microsoft, and Tom Anderson is the Vice President of Ansible at Red Hat. Guys, welcome to theCube. >> Hi, thank you. >> Yep. >> Ansible on Azure, we're going to talk about that. Why do I need Ansible? Why do I need that kind of automation in Azure? What's the problem you're solving there? >> Yeah, so automation itself is connecting customers' infrastructure to their end resources, so whether that infrastructure's in the cloud, whether it's in the data center, or whether it's at the edge. Ansible is the common automation platform that allows customers to reuse automation across all of those platforms. >> And so, Tracie, I mean, Microsoft does everything. Why do you need Red Hat to do Ansible? >> We want that automation, right? We want our customers to have that ease of use so they can be innovative and bring their workloads to Azure. So that's exactly why we want Ansible. >> Yeah, so kind of loaded questions here, right, as we were sort of talking offline. The nature of partnerships is changing. It's about co-creating, adding value together, getting those effects of momentum, but maybe talk about how the relationship started and how it's evolving and I'd love to have your perspective on the evolving nature of ecosystems. >> Yeah, I think the partnership with Red Hat has been strong for a number of years. I think my predecessor was in the role for five years. There was a person in there for a couple years before that. So I think seven or eight years, we've been working together and co-engineering. Red Hat enterprised Linux. It's co-engineered. Ansible was co-engineered. We work together, right? So we want it to run perfectly on our platform. We want it to be a good customer experience. I think the evolution that we're seeing is in how customers buy, right? They want us to be one company, right? They want it to be easy. They want be able to buy their software where they run it on the cloud. They don't want to have to call Red Hat to buy and then call us to buy and then deploy. And we can do all that now with Ansible's the first one we're doing this together and we'll grow that on our marketplace so that it's easy to buy, easy to deploy, easy to keep track of. >> This is not just Ansible in the marketplace. This is actually a fully managed service. >> That's right. >> What is the value you've added on top of that? >> So it runs in the customer account, but it acts kind of like SaaS. So Red Hat gets to manage it, right? And it's in their own tenant. So they get in the customer's own tenant, right? So with a service principle, Red Hat's able to do that management. Tom, do you want to add anything to that? >> Yeah, the customers don't have to worry about managing Ansible. They just worry about using Ansible to automate their infrastructure. So it's a kind of a win-win situation for us and for our customers. We manage the infrastructure for them and the customer's resources themselves and they get to just focus on automating their business. >> Now, if they want to do cross-cloud automation or automation to their hybrid cloud, will you support that as well? >> 100%. >> Absolutely. >> Yeah. >> We're totally fine with that, right? I mean, it's unrealistic to think customers run everything in one place. That isn't enterprise. That's not reality. So yeah, I'm fine with that. >> Well, that's not every cloud provider. >> No (laughing) that's true. >> You guys over here, at Amazon, you can't even say multicloud or you'll get thrown off the stage. >> Of course we'd love it to all run on Azure, but we want our customers to be happy and have choice, yeah. >> You guys have all, I mean, you've been around a long time. So you had a huge on-prem state, brought that to the cloud, and Azure Stack, I mean, it's been around forever and it's evolved. So you've always believed in, whatever you call it, Hybrid IT, and of course, you guys, that's your call of mission. >> Yeah, exactly. >> So how do you each see hybrid? Where's the points of agreement? It sounds like there's more overlap than gaps, but maybe you could talk about your perspective. >> Yeah, I don't think there are any points of disagreement. I think for us, it's meeting our customers where their center of gravity is, where they see their center of management gravity. If it's on Azure, great. If it's on their data center, that's okay, too. So they can manage to or from. So if Azure is their center of gravity, they can use automation, Ansible automation, to manage all the things on Azure, things on other cloud providers, things in their data center, all the way out to their edge. So they have the choice of what makes the most sense to them. >> And Azure Arc is obviously, that's how Azure Stack is evolving, right? >> Yeah, and we have Azure Arc integration with Ansible. >> Yeah. >> So yeah, absolutely. And I mean, we also have Rell on our marketplace, right? So you can buy the basement and you could buy the roof and everything in between. So we're growing the estate on marketplace as well to all the other products that we have in common. So absolutely. >> How much of an opportunity, just go if we go inside? Give us a little peak inside Microsoft. How much of an opportunity does Microsoft think about multi-cloud specifically? I'm not crazy about the term multicloud, 'cause to me, multicloud, runs an Azure, runs an AWS, runs on Google, maybe runs somewhere else. But multicloud meaning that common experience, your version of hybrid, if you will. How serious is Microsoft about that as a business opportunity? A lot of people would say, well, Microsoft really doesn't want. They want everything in their cloud. But I'd love to hear from you if that is good. >> Well, we have Azure Red Hat OpenShift, which is a Microsoft branded version of OpenShift. We have Ansible now on our marketplace. We also, of course, we have AKS. So I mean, container strategy runs anywhere. But we also obviously have services that enhance all these things. So I think, our marketplace is a third party marketplace. It is designed to let customers buy and run easily on Azure and we'd want to make that experience good. So I don't know that it's... I can't speak to our strategy on multicloud, but what I can speak to is when businesses need to do innovation, we want it to be easy to do that, right? We want it to be easy to buy, defined, buy, deploy, manage, and that's what we're trying to accomplish. >> Fair to say, you're not trying to stop it. >> No, yeah, yeah. >> Whether or not it evolves into something that you heavily lean into or see. >> When we were talking before the cameras turned on, you said that you think marketplaces are the future. Why do you say that? And how will marketplaces be differentiated from each other in the future? >> Well, our marketplace is really, first of all, I think, as you said off camera, they're now. You can buy now, right? There's nothing that stops you. But to me, it's an extension of consumerization of IT. I've been in IT and manageability for about 23 years and full automation is what we and IT used to always talk about, that single pane of glass. How do you keep track of everything? How do you make it easy? How do you support? And IT is always eeking out that last little bit of funding to do innovation, right? So what we can do with consumerization of IT is make it easier to innovate. Make it cheaper to innovate, right? So I think marketplaces do that, right? They've got gold images you can deploy. You're also able to deploy custom images. So I think the future is as particularly with ours, like we support, I don't remember the exact number, but over a hundred countries of tax calculation. We've got like 17 currencies. So as we progress and customers can run from anywhere in the world and buy from anywhere in the world and make it simple to do those things that used to take maybe two months to spin up services for innovation and Ansible helps with that, that's going to help enterprises innovate faster. And I think that's what marketplaces are really going to bring to the forefront is that innovation. >> Tom, why did Ansible, I'm going to say one, I mean, you're never done. But it was unclear a few years ago, which automation platform was going to win in the marketplace and clearly, Ansible has taken a leading position. Why? What were the factors that led to that? >> Honestly, it was the strength of the community, right? And Red Hat leaning into that community to support that community. When you look out at the upstream community for Ansible and the number of participants, active participants that are contributing to the community just increases its value to everybody. So the number of integrations, the number of things that you can automate with Ansible is in the thousands and thousands, and that's not because a group of Red Hat engineers wrote it. That's because our community partners, like Microsoft wrote the user integrations for Ansible. F5 does theirs. Customers take those and expand on them. So the number of use cases that we can address through the community and through our partners is immense. >> But that doesn't just happen. I mean, what have you done to cultivate that community? >> Well, it's in Red Hat's DNA, right? To be the catalyst in a community, to bring partners and users together, to share their knowledge and their expertise and their skills, and to make the code open. So anybody can go grab Ansible from upstream and start doing stuff with it, if they want. If they want to mature on it and management for it and support all the other things that Red Hat provides, then they come to us for a subscription. So it's really been about sort of catalyzing and supporting that community, and Red Hat is a good steward of these upstream communities. >> Is Azure putting Ansible to use actually within your own platform as opposed to being a managed service? Are you adopting Ansible for automation of the Azure Platform? >> I'll let you answer that. >> So two years ago, Microsoft presented at AnsibleFest, our fall conference, Budd Warrack, I'm butchering his last name, but he came on and told how the networking team at Microsoft supports about 35,000 access points across hundreds of buildings, all the Microsoft campuses using Ansible to do that. Fantastic story if you want to go on YouTube and look up that use case. So Microsoft is an avid user of the Ansible technology in their environment. >> Azure is kind of this really, I mean, incredible strategic platform for Microsoft. I wonder if you could talk about Azure as a honeypot for partners. I mean, it seems, I mean, the momentum is unbelievable. I mean, I pay attention to their earnings calls every quarter of Azure growth, even though I don't know what the exact number is, 'cause they won't give it to me but they give me the growth rates and it's actually accelerating. >> No lie. (Tracie laughing) >> I've got my number. It's in the tens of billions. I mean, I'm north of 35 billion, but growing at the high 30%. I mean, it's remarkable. So talk about the importance of that to the ecosystem as a honey pot. >> Paul Satia said it right. Many times partners are essential to our strategy. But if you think about it, software solves problems. We have software that solves problems. They have software that solves problems, right? So when IT and customers are thinking of solving a problem, they're thinking software, right? And we want that software to run on Azure. So partners have to be essential to our strategy. Absolutely. It's again, we're one team to the customer. They want to see that as working together seamlessly. They don't want it to be hardware Azure plus software. So that's absolutely critical to our success. >> And if I could add for us, the partners are super important. So some of our launch partners are like F5 and CyberArk who have certified Ansible content for Ansible on Azure. We have service provider partners like Accenture and Kindra that are launching with us and providing our joint customers with help to get up to speed. So it really is a partner play. >> Absolutely. >> Where are you guys taking this? Where do you want to see it go? What are some of the things that observers should pay attention to as marketers of success and evolution? >> Well, certainly for us, it's obviously customer adoption, but it is providing them with patterns. So out of the box patterns that makes it easy for them to get up and running and solve the use cases and problems that they run into most frequently. Problems ain't the right word. Challenges or opportunities on Azure to be able to automate the things. So we're really leaning into the different use cases, whether it's edge, whether it's cloud, whether it's cloud to edge, all of those things. We want to provide users with out of the box Ansible content that allows 'em to just get up and automating super fast, and doing that on Azure makes it way easier for us because we don't have to focus on the install and the setting up and configuring it. It's all just part of the experience >> And Tracie, for Microsoft, it's world domination with a smile. (all laughing) >> Of course. No, of course not. No, I think it's to continue to grow the co-engineering we do across all of the Red Hat products. I can't even tell you the number of things we work on together, but to look forward strategically at what opportunities we have across our products and theirs to integrate like Arc and Ansible, and then making it all easy to buy, making it available so that customers have choice and they can buy how they want to and simplify. So we're just going to continue to do that and we're at that infancy right now and as we grow, it'll just get easier and easier with more and more products. >> Well, bringing the edge into the equation is going to be really interesting. Microsoft with its gaming, vector is amazing, and recent, awesome acquisitions. All the gamers are excited about that and that's a huge edge play. >> You'll have to bring my son on for that interview. >> Yeah. >> My son will interview. >> He knows more than all of us, I'm sure. What about Ansible? What's ahead for Ansible? >> Edge, so part of the Red Hat play at the Edge. We've getting a lot of customer pull for both industrial Edge use cases in the energy sector. We've had a joint customer with Azure that has a combined Edge platform. Certainly, the cloud stuff that we're announcing today is a huge growth area. And then just general enterprise automation. There's lots of room to run there for Ansible. >> And lots of industries, right? >> Yeah. >> Telco, manufacturing. >> Retail. >> Retail. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. There's so many places to go, yeah, that need the help. >> The market's just, how you going to count it anymore? It's just enormous. >> Yeah. >> It's the entire GDP the world. But guys, thanks for coming to theCUBE. >> Yeah. >> Great story. Congratulations on the partnership and the announcements and look forward to speaking with you in the future. >> Yeah, thanks for having us. >> Thanks for having us. >> You're very welcome. And keep it right there. This is Dave Vellante for Paul Gillin. This is theCUBE's coverage of Red Hat Summit 2022. We'll be right back at Seaport in Boston. (gentle music)

(bright music) >> Hello everyone and welcome back to theCUBE's live coverage here in San Francisco, California for AWS Summit 2022. I'm John Furrier, your host of theCUBE. Two days of coverage, AWS Summit 2022 in New York city's coming up this summer, we'll be there as well. Events are back. theCUBE is back. Of course, with theCUBE virtual, CUBE hybrid, the cube.net. Check it out, a lot of content this year more than ever. A lot more cloud data, cloud native, modern applications, all happening. Got a great guest here. Jeremy Burton, CUBE alumni, CEO of Observe, Inc. in the middle of all the cloud scale, big data, observability. Jeremy, great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >> Always great to come and talk to you on theCUBE man. It's been a few years. >> Well, you got your hands. You're in the trenches with great startup, good funding, great board, great people involved in the observability space, hot area, but also you've been a senior executive. President of Dell, EMC, 11 years ago you had a vision and you actually had an event called cloud meets big data. >> Jeremy: Yeah. >> And it's here. You predicted it 11 years ago. Look around, it's cloud meets big data. >> Yeah, the cloud thing I think was probably already a thing, but the big data thing I do claim credit for sort of catching that bus early, We were on the bus early and I think it was only inevitable. Like if you could bring the economics and the compute of cloud to big data, you could find out things you could never possibly imagine. >> So you're close to a lot of companies that we've been covering deeply. Snowflake obviously are involved. The board level, the founders, the people there, cloud, Amazon, what's going on here? You're doing a startup as the CEO at the helm, chief of Observe, Inc., which is an observability, which is to me in the center of this confluence of data, engineering, large scale integrations, data as code, integrating into applications. It's a whole another world developing, like you see with Snowflake, it means Snowflake is super cloud as we call it. So a whole nother wave is here. What's this wave we're on? How would you describe the wave? >> Well, a couple of things. People are, I think, riding more software than ever before. Why? Because they've realized that if you don't take your business online and offer a service, then you become largely irrelevant. And so you you've got a whole set of new applications. I think more applications now than any point, not just ever, but the mid nineties. I always looked at as the golden age of application development. Now, back then people were building for Windows. Well now they're building for things like, AWS is now the platform. So you've got all of that going on. And then at the same time, the side effect of these applications is they generate data and lots of data and the transactions, what you bought today or something like that. But then there's what we do, which is all the telemetry data, all the exhaust fumes. And I think people really are realizing that their differentiation is not so much their application. It's their understanding of the data. Can I understand who my best customers are? What I sell today? If people came to my website and didn't buy, then why not? Where did they drop off? All of that they want to analyze. And the answers are all in the data. The question is, can you understand it? >> In our last startup showcase, we featured data as code. One of the insights that we got out of that, and I want to get your opinion on or reaction to is, is that data used to be put into a data lake and turns into a data swamp or throw into the data warehouse, and then we'll do some queries, maybe a report once in a while. And so data, once it was done, unless it was real time, even real time was not good anymore after real time. That was the old way. Now you're seeing more and more effort to say, let's go look at the data, 'cause now machine learning is getting better. Not just train once, they're iterating. This notion of iterating and then pivoting, iterating and pivoting That's a Silicon Valley story. That's like how startups were, but now you're seeing data being treated the same way. So now you have this data concept that's now part of a new way to create more value for the apps. So this whole new cycle of data being reused and repurposed, then figure it out. >> Yeah, yeah, I'm a big fan of, years ago, just an amazing guy, Andy McAfee, at the MIT labs. I spent time with and he had this line, which still sticks to me this day, which is look, he said, I'm part of a body, which believes that everything is a matter of data. Like if you have enough data, you can answer any question. And this has going back 10 years when he was saying these kind of things and certainly, research is on the forefront. But I think starting to see that mindset of the MIT research be mainstream in enterprises. They're realizing that, yeah, it is about the data. If I can better understand my data better than competitor, then I've got an advantage. And so the question is how? What technologies and what skills do I need in my organization to allow me to do that? >> So let's talk about Observe, Inc. You're the CEO. Given you've seen the waves before, you're in the front lines of observability, which again is in the center of all this action. What's going on with the company? Give a quick minute to explain Observe for the folks who don't know what you guys do. What's the company doing? What's the funding status? What's the product status? And what's the customer status? >> Yeah, so we realized, a handful of years ago, let's say five years ago. Look, the way people are building applications is different. They're way more functional. They change every day. But in some respects there are a lot more complicated. They're distributed, microservices architectures. And when something goes wrong, the old way of troubleshooting and solving problems was not going to fly because you had so much change going into production on a daily basis. It was hard to tell like where the problem was. And so we thought, okay, it's about time. Somebody looks at the exhaust fumes from this application and all the telemetry data and helps people troubleshoot and make sense of the problems that they're seeing. So that's observability. It's actually a term that goes back to the 1960s. It was, a guy called, like everything in tech, it's a reinvention of something from years gone by, but there's a guy called Rudy Coleman in 1960s, kind of term. And the term was been able to determine the state of a system by looking at its external outputs. And so we've been going on this for the best part of four years now. It took us three years just to build the product. I think what people don't appreciate these days often is the barrier to entry in a lot of these markets is quite high. You need a lot of functionality to have something that's credible with a customer. So yeah, this last year, we did our first year selling. We've got about 40 customers now. We got great investors Sutter Hill Ventures. Mike Speiser who was really the first guy in the Snowflake and the initial investor. We're fortunate enough to have Mike on our board. And part of the Observe story is closely knit with Snowflake because all of that telemetry data, we store in there. >> So I want to pivot to that. Mike Speiser, Snowflake, Jeremy Burton, theCUBE kind of same thinking. This idea of a super cloud or what Snowflake became. >> Jeremy: Yeah. >> Snowflake is massively successful on top of AWS. And now you're seeing startups and companies build on top of Snowflake. >> Jeremy: Yeah. >> So that's become an entrepreneurial story that we think that to go big in the cloud, you can have a cloud on a cloud, like as Jerry Chen in Greylock calls it, castles in the cloud where there are moats in the cloud. So you're close to it. I know you're doing some stuff with Snowflake's. So as a startup, what's your view on building on top of say a Snowflake or an AWS, because again, you got to go where the data is. You need all the data. >> Jeremy: Yeah. >> What's your take on that? >> Having enough gray hair now. Again, in tech, I think if you want to predict the future, look at the past. And 20 years ago, 25 years ago, I was at a smaller company called Oracle. And an Oracle was the database company and their ambition was to manage all of the world's transactional data. And they built on a platform or a couple of platforms. One, Windows, and the other main one was Solaris. And so at that time, the operating system was the platform. And then that was the ecosystem that you would compete on top of. And then there were companies like SAP that built applications on top of Oracle. So then wind the clock forward 25 years, gray hairs, the platform isn't the operating system anymore. The platform is AWS, Google cloud. I probably look around if I say that in. >> It's okay. But Hyperscale. >> Yeah. >> CapEx built out. >> That is the new platform. And then Snowflake comes along. Well, their aspiration is to manage all of the, not just human generated data, but machine generated data in the world of cloud. And I think they they've done an amazing job doing for the, I'd say the big data world, what Oracle did for the relational data world way back 25 years ago. And then there are folks like us come along and of course my ambition would be, look, if we can be as successful as an SAP building on top of Snowflake, as they were on top of Oracle, then we'd probably be quite happy. >> So you're building on top of Snowflake? >> We're building on top of Snowflake a hundred percent. And I've had folks say to me, well, aren't you worried about that? Isn't that a risk? It's like, well, that's a risk. >> Are you still on the board? >> Yeah, I'm still on the board. Yeah. That's a risk I'm prepared to take. I am long on Snowflake. >> It sounds, well, you're in a good spot. Stay on the board then you'll know as going on. Okay, seriously, this is a real dynamic. >> Jeremy: It is. >> It's not a one off. >> Well, and I do believe as well that the platform that you see now with AWS, if you look at the revenues of AWS, it is an order of magnitude more than Microsoft was 25 years ago with windows. And so I believe the opportunity for folks like Snowflake and folks like Observe, it's an order magnitude more than it was for the Oracle and the SAPs of the old world. >> Yeah, and I think this is something that this next generation of entrepreneurship is the go big scenario is you got to be on a platform. >> Yeah and it's quite easy. >> Or be the platform, but it's hard. There's only like how many seats are at that table left. >> Well, value migrates up over time. So when the cloud thing got going, there were probably 10, 20, 30, rack space and there's 1,000,001 infrastructure for service, platform as a service. My old employee EMC, we had Pivotal. Pivotal was a platform as a service. You don't hear so much about it these days, but initially there's a lot of players and then it consolidates. And then to extract a real business, you got to move up, you got to add value, you got to build databases, then you got to build applications. >> It's interesting. Moving from the data center to the cloud was a dream for starters 'cause they didn't have to provision the CapEx. Now the CapEx is in the cloud. Then you build on top of that, you got Snowflake. Now you got on top of that. >> The assumption is almost that compute and storage is free. I know it's not quite free. >> Yeah, it's almost free. >> But as an application vendor, you think, well, what can I do if I assume compute and storage is free, that's the mindset you've got to get into. >> And I think the platform enablement to value. So if I'm an entrepreneur, I'm going to get a serious multiple of value in what I'm paying. Most people don't even blink at their AWS bills unless they're like massively huge. Then it's a repatriation question or whatever discount question. But for most startups or any growing company, the Amazon bill should be a small factor. >> Yeah, a lot of people ask me like, look, you're building on Snowflake. You're going to be paying their money. How does that work with your business model? If you're paying them money, do you have a viable business? And it's like, well, okay. We could build a database as well in Observe, but then I've got half the development team working on something that will never be as good as Snowflake. And so we made the call early on that, no, we want to innovate above the database. Snowflake are doing a great job of innovating on the database and the same is true with something like Amazon, like Snowflake could have built their own cloud and their own platform, but they didn't. >> Yeah and what's interesting is that Dave Vellante and I have been pointing this out and he's obviously more on Snowflake. I've been looking at Databricks and the same dynamics happening. The proof is the ecosystem. >> Yeah. >> If you look at Snowflake's ecosystem right now and Databricks, it's exploding. The shows are selling out. This floor space is booked. That's the old days at VMware. The old days at AWS. >> One and for Snowflake and any platform provider, it's a beautiful thing because we build on Snowflake and we pay their money. They don't have to sell to us. And we do a lot of the support. And so the economics work out really, really well if you're a platform provider and you've got a lot of ecosystems. >> And then also you get a trajectory of economies of scale with the institutional knowledge of Snowflake, integrations, new products, you're scaling and step function with them. >> Yeah, we manage 10 petabytes of data right now. When I arrived at EMC in 2010, we had one petabyte customer. And so at Observe, we've been only selling the product for a year. We have 10 petabytes of data under management. And so being able to rely on a platform that can manage that is invaluable. >> Well, Jeremy, great conversation. Thanks for sharing your insights on the industry. We got a couple minutes left, put a plug in for Observe. What do you guys do? You got some good funding, great partners. I don't know if you can talk about your POC customers, but you got a lot of high ends folks that are working with you. You get in traction. >> Yeah >> Scales around the corner sounds like. Is that where you at? Pre-scale? >> We've got a big announcement coming up in two or three weeks. We've got new funding, which is always great. The product is really, really close. I think, as a startup, you always strive for market fit, at which point can you just start hiring salespeople and the revenue keeps going. We're getting pretty close to that right now. We've got about 40 SaaS companies that run on the platform. They're almost all AWS Kubernetes, which is our sweet spot to begin with, but we're starting to get some really interesting enterprise type customers. We're F5 networks. We're POC in right now with Capital One. We've got some interesting news around Capital One coming up. I can't share too much, but it's going to be exciting. And like I said, Sutter Hill continue to stick. >> And I think Capital One's a big Snowflake customer as well, right? >> They were early and one of the things that attracted me to Capital One was they were very, very good with Snowflake early on and they put Snowflake in a position in the bank where they thought that snowflake could be successful. And today that is one of Snowflake's biggest accounts. >> Capital One, very innovative cloud. Obviously, AWS customer and very innovative. certainly in the CISO and CIO. On another point on where you're at. So you're pre-scale meaning you're about to scale. >> Jeremy: Right. >> So you got POCs. What's that trajectory look like? And you see around the corner, what's going on? What's around the corner that you're going to hit the straight and narrow and gas it fast? >> Yeah, the key thing for us is we got to get the product right. The nice thing about having a guy like Mike Speiser on the board is he doesn't obsess about revenue at this stage. His questions at the board are always about like, is the product right? Is the product right? Have you got the product right? 'Cause we know when the product's right, we can then scale the sales team and the revenue will take care of itself. So right now all the attention is on the product. This year, the exciting thing is we're adding all the tracing visualizations. So people will be able to the kind of things that back in the day you could do with the New Relics and AppDynamics, the last generation of APM tools. You're going to be able to do that within Observe. And we've already got the logs and the metrics capability in there. So for us this year is a big one 'cause we complete the trifecta, the logs. >> What's the secret sauce of observe if you put it into a sentence, what's the secret sauce? >> I think, an amazing founding engineering team, number one. At the end of the day, you have to build an amazing product and you have to solve a problem in a different way and we've got great long term investors. And the biggest thing our investors give is, actually it's not just money, it gives us time to get the product right. Because if we get the product right, then we can get the growth. >> Got it. Final question while I got you here. You've been on the enterprise business for a long time. What's the buyer landscape out there? You got people doing POCs, Capital One scale. So we know that goes on. What's the appetite at the buyer side for startups and what are their requirements that you're seeing? Obviously, we're seeing people go in and dip into the startup pool because new ways to refactor their business, restructure. So a lot of happening in cloud. What's the criteria? How are enterprises engaging in with startups? >> Yeah, enterprises, they know they've got to spend money transforming the business. I almost feel like my old Dell or EMC self there, but what we were saying five years ago is happening. Everybody needs to figure out a way to take their business to this digital world. Everybody has to do it. So the nice thing from a startup standpoint is they know at times they need to risk or take a bet on new technology in order to help them do that. So I think you've got buyers that A, have money, B, are prepared to take risks, and it's a race against time to get their offerings in this new digital footprint. >> Final, final question. What's the state of AWS? Where do you see them going next? Obviously, they're continuing to be successful. How does cloud 3.0? Or they always say it's day one, but it's maybe more like day 10, but what's next for AWS? Where do they go from here? Obviously, they're doing well and they're getting bigger and bigger. >> Yeah, it's an amazing story. We are on AWS as well. And so I think if they keep nurturing the builders and the ecosystem, then that is their superpower. They have an early leads. And if you look at where, maybe the likes of Microsoft lost the plot in the late nineties, it was they stopped really caring about developers and the folks who are building on top of their ecosystem. In fact, they started buying up their ecosystem and competing with people in their ecosystem. And I see with AWS, they have an amazing head start. And if they did more, if they do more than that, that's what's going to keep this juggernaut rolling for many years to come. >> They got the Silicon and they got the Stack developing. Jeremy Burton inside theCUBE, great resource for commentary, but also founding with the CEO of a company called Observe, Inc. In the middle of all the action and the board of Snowflake as well. Great startup. Thanks for coming on theCUBE. >> Always a pleasure. >> Live from San Francisco's theCUBE. I'm John Furrier, your host. Stay with us. More coverage from San Francisco, California after the short break. (soft music)

>> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto and Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE in ETR. This is "Breaking Analysis" with Dave Vellante. >> Cisco is a company at the crossroads. It's transitioning from a high margin hardware business to a software subscription-based model, which also should be high margin through both organic moves and targeted acquisitions. It's doing so in the context of massive macro shifts to digital in the cloud. We believe Cisco's dominant position in networking combined with a large market opportunity and a strong track record of earning customer trust, put the company in a good position to capitalize on cloud momentum. However, there are clear challenges ahead for Cisco, not the least of which is the growing complexity of its portfolio, a large legacy business, and the mandate to maintain its higher profitability profile as it transitions into a new business model. Hello and welcome to this week's Wiki-bond cube insights powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis, we welcome in Zeus Kerravala, who's the founder and principal analyst at ZK Research, long time Cisco watcher who together with me crafted the premise of today's session. Zeus, great to see you welcome to the program. >> Thanks Dave. It's always a pleasure to be with you guys. >> Okay, here's what we're going to talk about today, set the agenda. The catalyst for this session, Zeus and I attended Cisco's financial analyst day. We received a day and a half of firehose presentations, drill downs, interactions, Q and A with Cisco execs and one key customer. So we're going to share our takeaways from these sessions and add our additional thoughts. Now, in particular, we're going to talk about Cisco's TAM, its transformation to a subscription-based model, and how we see that evolving. As always, we're going to bring in some ETR spending data for context and get Zeus' take on what that tells us. And we'll end with a summary of Cisco's cloud strategy and outlook for how it could win in the cloud. So let's talk about Cisco's sort of structure and TAM opportunities. First, Zeus, Cisco has four main lines of business where it's organized it's executives around sort of four product areas. And it's got a large service component as well. Network equipment, SP routing, data center, collaboration that security, and as I say services, that's not necessarily how it's going to market, but that's kind of the way it organizes its ELT, its executive leadership team. >> Yeah, the in fact, the ELT has been organized around those products, as you said. It used to report to the street three product segments, infrastructure platforms, which was by far the biggest, it was all their networking equipment, then applications, and then security. Now it's moved to five new segments, secure agile networks, hybrid work, end to end security, internet for the future and optimized app experiences. And I think what Cisco's trying to do is align their, the way they report along the lines of the way customers buy. 'Cause I think before, you know, they had a very simplistic model before. It was just infrastructure, apps, and security. The ELT is organized around product roadmap and the product innovation, but that's not necessarily the way customers purchase things and so, purchase things so I think they've tried to change things a little bit there. When you look at those segments though, you know, by, it's interesting. They're all big, right? So, by far the biggest distilled networking, which is almost a hundred billion dollar TAM as they reported and they have it growing a about a 9% CAGR as reported by other analyst firms. And when you think about how mature networking is Dave, the fact that that's still growing at high single digit CAGR is still pretty remarkable. So I think that's one of those things that, you know, watchers of Cisco historically have been calling for the network to be commoditized for decades. For as long as I've been watching Cisco, we've been, people have been waiting for the network to be commoditized. My thesis has always been, if you can drive enough innovation into things, you can stave off commoditization and that's what they've done. But that's really the anchor for them to sell all their other products, some of which are higher margin, some which are a little bit sore, but they're all good high margin businesses to your point. >> Awesome. We're going to dig into that. So, so they flattened the organization when Geckler left. You've got Todd Nightingale, Jonathan Davidson, Liz Centoni, and Jeetu Patel who we heard from and we'll make some comments on what we heard from them. One of the big takeaways at the financial analysts meeting was on the TAM, as you just mentioned. Liz Centoni who also is heavily involved in strategy and the CFO Scott Herren, showed this slide, which speaks to the company's TAM and the organizational structure that you were just talking about. So the big message was that Cisco has got a large and growing market, you know, no shortage of available market. Somewhere between eight and 900 billion, depending on which of the slides you pull out of the deck. And ironically Zeus, when you look at the current markets number here on the right hand side of this slide, 260 billion, it just about matches the company's market cap. Maybe an interesting coincidence, but at any rate, what was your takeaway from this data? >> Well, I think, you know, the big takeaway from the data is there's still a lot of room ahead for Cisco to grow, right? Again, this is a, it's a company that I think most people would put in the camp of legacy IT vendor, just because of how long they've been around. But they have done a very good job of staving off innovation. And part of that is just these markets that they play in continue to grow and they continue to have challenges that they can solve. I think one of the things Cisco has done though, since the arrival of Chuck Robbins, is they don't fight these trends anymore, Dave. I know prior to Chuck's arrival, they really fought the tide of software defined networking and you know, trends like that, and even cloud to some extent. And I remember one of the first meetings I had with Chuck, I asked him about that and he said that Cisco will never do that again. That under his watch, if customers are going through a market transition, Cisco wants to lead them through it, not try and hold them back. And I think for that reason, they're able to look at, all of those trends and try and take a leadership position in them, even though you might look at some of those and feel that some of them might be detrimental to Cisco's business in the short term. So something like software defined WANs, which you would throw into secure agile networks, certainly doesn't, may not carry the same kind of RPOs and margins with it that their traditional routers did, but ultimately customers are going to buy it and Cisco would like to be the ones to sell it to them. >> You know, you bring up a great point. This industry is littered, there's a graveyard of executives who fought the trend. Many people, some people remember Ken Olson of Digital Equipment Corporation. "Unix is snake oil," is what he said. IBM mainframe guys said, "PCs are a toy." And of course the history, they were the wrong side of history. The other big takeaway was the shift to software in subscription. They really made a big point of this. Here's a chart Cisco showed a couple of times to make the point that it's one of the largest software companies in the world. You know, in the top 10. They also made the point that Chuck Robbins, when he joined in 2015, and since that time, it's nearly 4x'ed it's subscription software revenue, and roughly doubled its software sales. And it now has an RPO, remaining performance obligations, that exceeds 30 billion. And it's committing to grow its subscription business in the forward-looking statements by 15 to 17% CAGR through 25, which would imply about a doubling of these, the blue lines. Zeus, it's unclear if that forward-looking forecast is just software. I presume it includes some services, but as Herren pointed out, over time, these services will be bundled into the product revenue, same way SAS companies do it. But the point is Cisco is committed, like many of their peers, to moving to an ARR model. But please, share your thoughts on Cisco's move to software subscriptions and how you see the future of consumption-based pricing. >> Yeah, this has been a big shift for Cisco, obviously. It's one that's highly disruptive. It's one that I know gave their partners a lot of angst for a long time because when you sell things upfront, you get a big check for selling that, right? And when you sell things in a subscription model, you get a much smaller check for a number of months over the period of the contract. It also changes the way you deal with the customer. When you sell a one-time product, you basically wipe your hands. You come back in three or four years and say, "it's time to upgrade." When you sell a subscription, now, the one thing that I've tried to talk to Cisco and its partners about is customers don't renew things they don't use. And so it becomes incumbent on the partner, it becomes incumbent upon Cisco to make sure that things that the customer is subscribing to, that they do use. And so Cisco's had to create a customer success organization. They've had to help their partners create those customer success organizations. So it's really changed the model. And Cisco not only made the shift, they've done it faster than they actually had originally forecast. So during the financial analyst day, they actually touted their execution on software, noting that it hit it's 30% revenue as percent of total target well before it was supposed to, it's actually exceeded its targets. And now it's looking to increase that to, it actually raised its guidance in this area a little bit by a few percentage points, looking out over the next few years. And so it's moved to the subscription model, Dave, the thing that you brought up, which I do see as somewhat of a challenge is the shift to consumption-based pricing. So subscription is one thing in that I write you a check every month for the same amount. When I go to the consumption-based pricing, that's easy to do for cloud services, things like WebEx or Duo or, you know, CloudLock, some of the security products. That that shift should be relatively simple. If customers want to buy it that way. It's unclear as to how you do that when you're selling on-prem equipment with the software add-on to it because in that case, you have to put metering technology in to understand how much they're using. You have to have a minimum baseline to start with. They've done it in some respects. The old HCS product that they sold, the Telcos, actually was sold with a minimum commit and then they tacked on a utilization on top of that. So maybe they move into that kind of model. But I know it's something that they've, they get asked about a lot. I know they're still thinking about it, but it's something that I believe is coming and it's going to come pretty fast. >> I want to pick up on that because I think, you know, they made the point that we're one of the top 10 software companies in the world. It's very difficult for hardware companies to make the transition to software. You know, HP couldn't do it. >> Well, no one's done it. >> Well, IBM has kind of done it, but they really struggle. It's kind of this mishmash of tooling and software products that aren't really well-integrated. But, I would say this, everybody now, Cisco, Dell, HPE with GreenLake, Lenovo, pretty much all the traditional hardware players are trying to move to an as a service model or at least for a portion of their business. HPE's all in, Dell transitioning. And for the most part, I would make the following observation. And I'd love to get your thoughts on this. They're pretty much following a SAS like model, which in my view is outdated and kind of flawed from a customer standpoint. All these guys say, "Hey, we're doing this because "this is what the customers want." I think the cloud is really a true consumption based model. And if you look at modern SAS companies, a lot of the startups, they're moving to a consumption based model. You see that with Snowflake, you see that with Stripe. Now they will offer incentives. But most of the traditional enterprise players, they're saying, "Okay, pay us upfront, "commit to some base level. "If you go over it, you know, "we'll charge you for it. "If you go under it, you're still going to pay "for that base level." So it's not true consumption base. It's not really necessarily the customer's best interest. So that's, I think there's some learnings there that are going to have to play out. >> Yeah, the reason customers are shying away from that SAS type model, I think during the pandemic, the one thing we learned, Dave, is that the business will ebb and flow greatly from month to month sometimes. And I was talking with somebody that worked for one of the big hotel chains, and she was telling me that what their CRM providers, she wouldn't tell me who it was, except said it rhymed with Shmalesforce, that their utilization of it went from, you know, from a nice steady level to spiking really high when customers started calling in to cancel hotel rooms. And then it dropped down to almost nothing as we went through that period of stay at home. And now it's risen back up. And so for her, she wanted to move to a consumption-based model because what happens otherwise is you wind up buying for peak utilization, your software subscriptions go largely underutilized the majority of the year, and you wind up paying, you know, a lot more than you need to. If you go to more of a true consumption model, it's harder to model out from a financial perspective 'cause there's a lot of ebbs and flows in the business, but over a longer period of time, it's more cost-effective, right? And so the, again, what the pandemic taught us was we don't really know what we're going to need from a consumption standpoint, you know, nevermind a year from now, maybe even six months from now. And consumption just creates a lot more flexibility and agility. You can scale up, you can scale down. You can bring in users, you can take out users, you can add consultants, things like that. And it just, it's much more aligned with the way businesses are run today. >> Yeah, churn is a silent killer of a software company. And so there's retention is the key here. So again, I think there's lots of learning. Let's put Cisco into context with some of its peers. So this chart we developed compares five companies to Cisco. Core Dell, meaning Dell, without VMware. VMware, HPE, IBM, we've put an AWS, and then Cisco as, IBM, AWS and Cisco is the integrated plays. So the chart shows the latest quarterly revenue multiplied by four to get a run rate, a three-year growth outlook, gross margin percentage, market cap, and revenue multiple. And the key points here are that one, Cisco has got a pretty awesome business model. It's got 60% gross margin, strong operating margins, not shown here, but in the mid twenties, 25%. It's got a higher growth rate than most of its peers. And as such, a much better, multiple than say, for instance, Core Dell gets 33 cents on the revenue dollar. HPE is double that. IBM's below two X. Cisco's revenue multiple rivals VMware, which is a pure software company. Now in a large part that's because VMware stock took a hit recently, but still the point is obvious. Cisco's got a great business. Now for context, we've added AWS, which blows away any company on this chart. We've inferred a market cap of nearly 600 billion, which frankly is conservative at a 10 X revenue multiple given it's inferred margins and growth rate. Now Zeus, if AWS were a separate company, it could have a market cap that approached 800 billion in my view. But what does this data tell you? >> Well, it just tells me that Cisco continues to be a very well-run company that has staved off commoditization, despite the calling for it for years. And I think the big lesson, and I've talked to financial analysts about this over the years, is that if, I don't really believe anything in this world is a commodity, Dave. I think even when Cisco went to the server market, if you remember back then, they created a new way of handling memory management. They were getting well above average margins for service, albeit less than Cisco's network margins, but still above average for server margins. And so I think if you can continue to innovate, you will see the margin stay where they are. You will see customers continue to buy and refresh. And I think one of the challenges Cisco's had in the past, and this is where the subscription business will help, is getting customers to stay with the latest and greatest. Prior to this refresh of network equipment, some of the stuff that I've seen in the fields, 10, 15 years old, once you move to that sell me a box and then tack on the subscription revenue that you pay month by month, you do drive more consistent refresh. Think about the way you just handle your own mobile phone. If you had to go pay, you know, a thousand dollars every three years, you might not do it at that three-year cycle. If you pay 40 bucks a month, every time there's a new phone, you're going to take it, right? So I think Cisco is able to drive greater, better refresh, keep their customers current, keep the features in there. And we've seen that with a lot of the new products. The new Cat 9,000, some of the new service provider products, the new wifi products, they've all done very well. In fact, they've all outpaced their previous generation products as far as growth rate goes. And so I think that is a testament to the way they've run the business. But I do think when people bucket Cisco in with HP and Dell, and I understand why they do, their businesses were similar at one time, it's really not a true comparison anymore. I think Cisco has completely changed their business and they're not trying to commoditize markets, they're trying to drive innovation and keep the margins up, where I think HP and Dell tend to really compete on price versus innovation. >> Well, and we are going to get to this point about the tailwinds and headwinds and cloud, and how Cisco to do it. But, to your point about, you know, the cell phone analogy. To the extent that Cisco can make that seamless for customers could hide that underlying complexity, that's going to be critical for the cloud. Now, but before we get there, I want to talk about one of the reasons why Cisco such a high multiple, and has been able to preserve its margins, to your point, not being commoditized. And it's been able to grow both organically, but also has a strong history of M and A. It's this chart shows a dominant position in core networking. So this shows, so ETR data within the Fortune 500. It plots companies in the ETR taxonomy in two dimensions, net score on the vertical axis, which is a measure of spending velocity, and market share on the horizontal axis, which is a measure of presence in the survey. It's not like IDC market share, it's mentioned market share if you will. The point is Cisco is far and away the most pervasive player in the market, it's generally held its dominant position. Although, it's been under pressure in the last few years in core networking, but it retains or maintains a very respectable net score and consistently performs well for such a large company. Zeus, anything you'd add with respect to Cisco's core networking business? >> Yeah, it's maintained a dominant network position historically. I think part of because it drives good products, but also because the competitive landscape, historically has been pretty weak, right? We saw companies like 3Com and Nortel who aren't around anymore. It'll be interesting to see moving forward now that companies like VMware are involved in networking. AWS is interested in networking. Arista is a much stronger company. You know, Juniper bought Mist and is in better position. Even Extreme Networks who most people thought was dead a few years ago has made a number of acquisitions and is now a billion dollar company. So while Cisco has done a great job of execution, they've done a great job on the innovation side, their competitive landscape, looking out over the next five years, I think is going to be more difficult than it has been over the previous five years. And largely, Dave, I think that's good for Cisco. I think whenever Cisco's pressed a little bit from competition, they tend to step on the innovation gas a little bit more. And I look back and even just the transition when VMware bought Nicira, that got Cisco's SDN business into gear, like nothing else could have, right? So competition for that company, they always seem to respond well to it. >> So, let's break down Cisco's net score a little bit. Explain why the company has been able to hold its spending momentum despite its large size. This will give you a little insight to the survey. So this chart shows the granular components of net score. The lime green is new adoptions to Cisco. The forest green is spending more than 6%. The gray is flat plus or minus 5%. The pink is spending drops by more than 5%. And the red is we're chucking the platform, we're getting off. And Cisco's overall net score here is 25%, which for a company of its size speaks to the relationships that it has with customers. It's of course got a fat middle in the gray area, like all sort of large established companies. But very low defections as well, it's got low new adoptions. But very respectable. So that is background, Zeus. Let's look at spending momentum over time across Cisco's portfolio. So this chart shows Cisco's net score by that methodology within the ETR taxonomy for Cisco over three survey periods. And what jumps out is Meraki on the left, very strong. Virtualization business, its core networking, analytics and security, all showing upward momentum. AppD is a little bit concerning, but that could be related to Cisco's sort of pivot to full stack observability. So maybe AppD is being bundled there. Although some practitioners have cited to us some concerns in that space. And then WebEx at the end of the chart, it's showing some relative strength, but not that high. Zeus, maybe you could comment on Meraki and any other takeaways across the portfolio. >> Yeah, Meraki has proven to be an excellent acquisition for Cisco. In fact, you might, I think it's arguable to say it's its best acquisition in history going all the way back to camp Kalpana and Grand Junction, the ones that brought up catalyst switches. So, in fact, I think Meraki's revenue might be larger than security now. So, that shows you the momentum it has. I think one of the lessons it brought to Cisco was that simpler is better, sometimes. I think when they first bought Meraki, the way Meraki's deployed, it's very easy to set up. There's a lot of engineering work though that goes into making a product simple to use. And I think a lot of Cisco engineers historically looked at Meraki as, that's a little bit of a toy. It's meant for small businesses, things like that, but it's not for enterprise. But, Rocky's done a nice job of expanding the portfolio, of leveraging the cloud for analytics and showing you a lot of things that you wouldn't necessarily get from traditional networking equipment. And one of the things that I was really delighted to see was when they put Todd Nightingale in charge of all the networking business, because that showed to me that Chuck Robbins understood that the things Meraki were doing were right and they infuse a little bit of Meraki into the rest of the company. You know, that's certainly a good thing. The other areas that you showed on the chart, not really a surprise, Dave. When you think of the shift hybrid work and you think of the, some of the other transitions going on, I think you would expect to see the server business in decline, the storage business, you know, maybe in a little bit of decline, just because people aren't building out data centers. Where the other ones are related more to hybrid working, hybrid cloud, things like that. So it is what you would expect. The WebEx one was interesting too, because it did show somewhat of a dip and then a rise. And I think that's indicative of what we've seen in the collaboration space since the pandemic came about. Companies like Zoom and RingCentral really got a lot of the headlines. Again, when you, the comment I made on competition, Cisco got caught a little bit flat-footed, they've caught up in features and now they really stepped on the gas there. Chuck joked that he gave the WebEx team a bit of a blank check to go do what it had to do. And I don't think that was a joke. I think he actually did that because they've added more features into WebEx in the last year then I think they did the previous five years before that. >> Well, let's just drill into video conferencing real quick here, if we could. Here's that two dimensional view, again, showing net score against market share or pervasiveness of mentions, and you can see Microsoft Teams in the upper right. I mean, it's off the chart, literally. Zoom's well ahead of Cisco in terms of, you know, mentions presence. And that could be a spate of freemium, you know, but it's basically a three horse race in this game. And Cisco, I don't think is trying to take Zoom head on, rather it seems to be making WebEx a core part of its broader collaboration agenda. But Zeus, maybe you could comment. >> Well, it's all coming together, right? So, it's hard to decouple calling from video from meetings. All of the vendors, including Teams, are going after the hybrid work experience. And if you believe the future is hybrid and not just work from home, then Cisco does have a pretty interesting advantage because it's the only one that makes its own end points, where Teams and Zoom doesn't. And so that end to end experience it can deliver. The Microsoft Teams one's interesting because that product, frankly, when you talk to users, it doesn't have a great user score, like as far as user satisfaction goes, but the one thing Microsoft has done a very good job of is bundling it in to the Office365 licenses, making it very easy for IT to deploy. Zoom is a little bit in the middle where they've appealed to the users. They've done a better job of appealing to IT, but there is a, there is a battleground now going on where video's not just video. It includes calling, includes meetings, includes room systems now, and I think this hybrid work friend is going to change the way we think about these meeting tools. >> Now we'd be remiss if we didn't spend a moment talking about security as a key part of Cisco's business. And we have a graphic on this same kind of X, Y. And it's been, we've seen several quarters of growth. Although, the last quarter security growth was in the low single digits, but Cisco is a major player in security. And this X, Y graph shows, they've got both a large presence and a solid spending momentum. Not nearly as much momentum as Okta or Zscaler or a CrowdStrike and some of the smaller companies, but they're, these guys are on a rocket ship, but others that we featured in these episodes, but much more than respectable for Cisco. And security is critical to the strategy. It's a big part of the subscriber base. And the last thing, Zeus, I'll say about Cisco made the point in analyst day, that this market is crowded. You can see that in this chart. And their goal is to simplify this picture and make it easier for customers to secure their data and apps. But that's not easy, Zeus. What are your thoughts on Cisco's security opportunities? >> Yeah, I've been waiting for Cisco go to break up in security a little more than it has. I do think, I was talking with a CSO the other day, Dave, that said to me he's starting to understand that you don't have to have best of breed everywhere to have best in class threat protection. In fact, there's a lot of buyers now will tell you that if you try and have best of breed everywhere, it actually creates a negative when it comes to threat protection because keeping all the policies and things up to date is very, very difficult. And so the industry is moving more to a platform model, right? Now, the challenge for Cisco is how do you get that, the customer to think of the network as part of the platform? Because while the platform model, I think, is starting to gain traction, FloridaNet, Palo Alto, even McAfee, companies like that also have their own version of a security platform. And if you look at the financial performance of companies like FloridaNet and Palo Alto over the past, you know, over the past couple of years, they've been through the roof, right? And so I think an interesting and unique challenge for Cisco is can they convince the security buyer that the network is as important a part of that platform as any other component? If they can do that, I think they can break away from the pack. If not, then they'll stay mixed in with those, you know, Palo, FloridaNet, Checkpoint, and, you know, and Cisco, in that mix. But I do think that may present their single biggest needle moving opportunity just because of how big the security TAM is, and the fact that there is no de facto leader in security today. If they could gain the same kind of position in security as they have a networking, who, I mean, that would move the needle like no other market would. >> Yeah, it's really interesting that they're coming at security, obviously from a position of networking strength. You've got, to your point, you've got best of breed, Okta in identity, you got CrowdStrike in endpoint, Zscaler in cloud security. They're all growing like crazy. And you got Cisco and you know, Palo Alto, CSOs tell us they want to work with Palo Alto because they're the thought leader and they're obviously a major player here. You mentioned FloridaNet, there's a zillion others. We could talk all day about security. But let's bring it back to cloud. We've talked about a number of the piece in Cisco's portfolio, and we haven't really spent any time on full stack observability, which is a big push for Cisco with AppD, Intersight and the ThousandEyes acquisition. And that plays into this equation. But my take, Zeus, is Cisco has a number of cloud knobs that it can turn, it sells core networking equipment to hyperscalers. It can be the abstraction layer to connect on-prem to the cloud and hybrid and across clouds. And it's in a good position with Telcos too, to go after the 5G. But let's use this chart to talk about Cisco's cloud prospects. It's an ETR cut of the cloud customer spending. So we cut it by cloud customers. And they're are, I don't know, 800 or so in the survey. And then looking at various companies performance within that cut. So these are companies that compete, or in the case of HashiCorp, partner with Cisco at some level. Let me just set this up and get your take. So the insert on the chart by the way shows the raw data that positions each dot, the net score and the shared n, i.e. the number of accounts in the survey that responded. The key points, first of all, Azure and AWS, dominant players in cloud. GCP is a distant third. We've reported on that a lot. Not only are these two companies big, they have spending momentum on their platforms. They're growing, they are on that flywheel. Second point, VMware and Cisco are very prominent. They have huge customer bases. And while they're often on a collision course, there's lots of room in cloud for multiple players. When we plotted some other Cisco properties like AppD and Meraki, which as we said, is strong. And then for context, we've placed Dell, HPE, Aruba, IBM and Oracle. And also VMware cloud and AWS, which is notable on its elevation. And as I say, we've added HashiCorp because they're critical partner of Cisco and it's a multi-cloud play. Okay, Zeus, there's the setup. What does Cisco have to do to make the cloud a tailwind? Let's talk about strategy, tailwinds, headwinds, competition, and bottom line it for us. >> Yeah, well, I do think, well, I talked about security being the biggest needle mover for Cisco, I think its biggest challenge is convincing Wall Street in particular, that the cloud is a tailwind. I think if you look at the companies with the really high multiples to their stock, Dave, they're all ones where they're viewed as, they go along with the cloud ride, Right? So the, if you can associate yourself with the cloud and then people believe that the cloud is going to, more cloud equals more business, that obviously creates a better multiple because the cloud has almost infinite potential ahead of it. Now with respect to Cisco, I do think cloud has presented somewhat of a double-edged sword for Cisco. I don't believe the current consumption model for cloud is really a tailwind for Cisco, not really a headwind, but it doesn't really change Cisco's business. But I do think the very definition of cloud is changing before our eyes, Dave. And it's shifting away from centralized clouds. If you think of the way customers bought cloud before, it might have used AWS, it might've used Azure, but it really, that's not really multi-cloud, it's just multiple clouds in which I put things in these centralized resources. It's shifting more to this concept of distributed cloud in which a single application can be built using resources from your private cloud, for AWS, from Azure, from Edge locations, all the cloud providers have built their portfolios to support this concept of distributed cloud and what becomes important there, is a highly agile dynamic network. And in that case with distributed cloud, that is a tailwind for Cisco because now the network is that resource that ties all those distributed cloud components together. Now the network itself has to change. It needs to become a lot more agile and microservices and container friendly itself so I can spin up resources and, you know, in an Edge location, as fast as I can on-prem and things like that. But I do think it creates another wave of innovation and networking, and in that case, I think it does act as a tailwind for Cisco, aside from just the work it's done with the web scalers, you know, those types of companies. So, but I do think that Cisco needs to rethink its delivery model on network services somewhat to take advantage of that. >> At the analyst meeting, Cisco made the point that it does sell to the hyperscalers. It talked about the top six hyperscalers. You know, you had mentioned to me, maybe IBM and Oracle were in there. I always talk about four hyperscalers and only four, but that's fine. Here's my question. Practitioners have told me, buyers have told me, the more money and more workloads I put in the cloud, the less I spend with Cisco. Now, even though that might be Cisco gear powering those clouds, do you see that as a potential threat in that they don't own that relationship anymore and value will confer to the cloud players? >> Yeah, that's, I've heard that too. And I don't, I believe that's true when it comes to general purpose compute. You're probably not buying as many UCS servers and things like that because you are putting them in the cloud. But I do think you do need a refresh the network. I think the network becomes a very important role, plays a very important role there. The variant, the really interesting trend will be, what is your WAM look like? Do you have thousands of workers scattered all over the place, or do you just have a few centralized locations? So I think also, you know, Cisco will wind up providing connectivity within the cloud. If you think of the transition we've seen in other industries, Dave, as far as cloud goes, you think of, you know, F5, a company like that. People thought that AWS would commoditize F5's business because AWS provides their own load balancers, right? But what AWS provides is a very basic, very basic functionality and then use F5's virtual edition or a cloud edition for a lot of the advanced capabilities. And I think you'll see the same thing with the cloud that customers will start buying versions of Cisco that go in the cloud to drive a lot of those advanced capabilities that only Cisco delivers. And so I think you wind up buying more Cisco over time, although the per unit price of what you buy might be a little bit lower. If that makes sense here. >> It does, I think it makes a lot of sense and that fits into the cloud model. You know, you bring up a good point, the conversation with the customer was Rakuten. And that individual was essentially sharing with us, somebody was asking, one of the analysts was asking, "Well, what about the cloud guys? "Aren't they going to really threaten the whole Telco "industry and disrupt it?" And his point was, "Look at, this stuff is not trivial." So to your point, you know, maybe they'll provide some basic functionality. Kind of like they do in a lot of different areas. Data protection is another good example. Security is another good example. Where there's plenty of room for partners, competitors, of on-prem players to add value. And I've always said, "Look, the opportunity "is the cloud players spend 100 billion dollars a year "on CapEx." It's a gift to companies like Cisco who can build an abstraction layer that connects on-prem, cloud for hybrid, across clouds, out to the edge, and really be that layer that is that layer that takes advantage of cloud native, but also delivers that experience, I don't want to use the word seamlessly, but that experience across those clouds as the cloud expands. And that's fundamentally Cisco's cloud strategy, isn't it? >> Oh yeah. And I think people have underestimated over the years, how hard it is to build good networking products. Anybody can go get some silicon and build a product to connect two things together. The question is, can you do it at scale? Can you do it securely? And lots of companies have tried to commoditize networking, you know, White Boxes was looked at as the existential threat to Cisco. Huawei was looked at as the big threat to Cisco. And all of those have kind of come and gone because building high quality network equipment that scales is tough. And it's tougher than most people realize. And your other point on the cloud providers as well, they will provide a basic level of functionality. You know, AWS network equipment doesn't work in Azure. And Azure stuff doesn't work in Google, and Google doesn't work in AWS. And so you do need a third party to come in and act as almost the cloud middleware that can connect all those things together with a consistent set of policies. And that's what Cisco does really well. They did that, you know back when they were founded with routing protocols and you can think this is just an extension of what they're doing just up at the cloud layer. >> Excellent. Okay, Zeus, we're going to leave it there. Thanks to my guest today, Zeus Kerravala. Great analysis as always. Would love to have you back. Check out ZKresearch.com to reach him. Thank you again. >> Thank you, Dave. >> Now, remember I publish each week on Wikibond.com and siliconangle.com. All these episodes are available as podcasts, just search "Braking Analysis" podcast, and you can connect on Twitter at DVallante or email me David.Vallante@siliconangle.com. Thanks for the comments on LinkedIn. Check out etr.plus for all the survey action. This is Dave Vallante for theCUBE insights powered by ETR. Be well and we'll see you next time. (light music)

from the cube studios in palo alto in boston bringing you data driven insights from the cube and etr this is breaking analysis with dave vellante recent survey data from etr shows that enterprise tech spending is tracking with projected u.s gdp growth at six to seven percent this year many markers continue to point the way to a strong recovery including hiring trends and the loosening of frozen it project budgets however skills shortages are blocking progress at some companies which bodes well for an increased reliance on external i.t services moreover while there's much to talk about well there's much talk about the rotation out of work from home plays and stocks such as video conferencing vdi and other remote worker tech we see organizations still trying to figure out the ideal balance between funding headquarter investments that have been neglected and getting hybrid work right in particular the talent gap combined with a digital mandate means companies face some tough decisions as to how to fund the future while serving existing customers and transforming culturally hello everyone and welcome to this week's wikibon cube insights powered by etr in this breaking analysis we welcome back eric porter bradley of etr who will share fresh data perspectives and insights from the latest survey data eric great to see you welcome thank you very much dave always good to see you and happy to be on the show again okay we're going to share some macro data and then we're going to dig into some highlights from etr's most recent march covid survey and also the latest april data so eric the first chart that we want to show it shows cio and it buyer responses to expected i.t spend for each quarter of 2021 versus 2020. and you can see here a steady quarterly improvement eric what are the key takeaways from your perspective sure well first of all for everyone out there this particular survey had a record-setting number of uh participation we had uh 1 500 i.t decision makers participate and we had over half of the fortune 500 and over a fifth of the global 1000. so it was a really good survey this is the seventh iteration of the covet impact survey specifically and this is going to transition to an over large macro survey going forward so we could continue it and you're 100 right what we've been tracking here since uh march of last year was how is spending being impacted because of covid where is it shifting and what we're seeing now finally is that there is a real re-acceleration in spend i know we've been a little bit more cautious than some of the other peers out there that just early on slapped an eight or a nine percent number but what we're seeing is right now it's at a midpoint of over six uh about six point seven percent and that is accelerating so uh we are still hopeful that that will continue uh really that spending is going to be in the second half of the year as you can see on the left part of this chart that we're looking at uh it was about 1.7 versus 3 for q1 spending year over year so that is starting to accelerate through the back half you know i think it's prudent to be be cautious relative because normally you'd say okay tech is going to grow a couple of points higher than gdp but it's it's really so hard to predict this year okay the next chart is here that we want to show you is we ask respondents to indicate what strategies they're employing in the short term as a result of coronavirus and you can see a few things that i'll call out and then i'll ask eric to chime in first there's been no meaningful change of course no surprise in tactics like remote work and halting travel however we're seeing very positive trends in other areas trending downward like hiring freezes and freezing i.t deployments downward trend in layoffs and we also see an increase in the acceleration of new i.t deployments and in hiring eric what are your key takeaways well first of all i think it's important to point out here that uh we're also capturing that people believe remote work productivity is still increasing now the trajectory might be coming down a little bit but that is really key i think to the backdrop of what's happening here so people have a perception that productivity of remote work is better than hybrid work and that's from the i.t decision makers themselves um but what we're seeing here is that uh most importantly these organizations are citing plans to increase hiring and that's something that i think is really important to point out it's showing a real thawing and to your point in right in the beginning of the intro uh we are seeing deployments stabilize versus prior survey levels which means early on they had no plans to launch new tech deployments then they said nope we're going to start and now that's stalling and i think it's exactly right what you said is there's an i.t skills shortage so people want to continue to do i.t deployments because they have to support work from home and a hybrid back return to the office but they just don't have the skills to do so and i think that's really probably the most important takeaway from this chart um is that stalling and to really ask why it's stalling yeah so we're going to get into that for sure and and i think that's a really key point is that that that accelerating it deployments is some it looks like it's hit a wall in the survey and so but before before we get deep into the skills let's let's take a look at this next chart and we're asking people here how a return to the new normal if you will and back to offices is going to change spending with on-prem architectures and applications and so the first two bars they're cloud-friendly if you add them up at 63 percent of the respondents say that either they'll stay in the cloud for the most part or they're going to lower the on-prem spend when they go back to the office the next three bars are on-prem friendly if you add those up as 29 percent of the respondents say their on-prem spend is going to bounce back to pre-covert levels or actually increase and of course 12 percent of that number by the way say they they've never altered their on-prem spend so eric no surprise but this bodes well for cloud but but it it isn't it also a positive for on-prem this we've had this dual funding premise meaning cloud continues to grow but neglected data center spend also gets a boost what's your thoughts you know really it's interesting it's people are spending on all fronts you and i were talking in a prep it's like you know we're we're in battle and i've got naval i've got you know air i've got land uh i've got to spend on cloud and digital transformation but i also have to spend for on-prem uh the hybrid work is here and it needs to be supported so this spending is going to increase you know when you look at this chart you're going to see though that roughly 36 percent of all respondents say that their spending is going to remain mostly on cloud so this you know that is still the clear direction uh digital transformation is still happening covid accelerated it greatly um you know you and i as journalists and researchers already know this is where the puck is going uh but spend has always lagged a little bit behind because it just takes some time to get there you know inversely 27 said that their on-prem spending will decrease so when you look at those two i still think that the trend is the friend for cloud spending uh even though yes they do have to continue spending on hybrid some of it's been neglected there are refresh cycles coming up so overall it just points to more and more spending right now it really does seem to be a very strong backdrop for it growth so i want to talk a little bit about the etr taxonomy before we bring up the next chart we get a lot of questions about this and of course when you do a massive survey like you're doing you have to have consistency for time series so you have to really think through what that what the buckets look like if you will so this next chart takes a look at the etr taxonomy and it breaks it down into simple to understand terms so the green is the portion of spending on a vendor's tech within a category that is accelerating and the red is the portion that is decelerating so eric what are the key messages in this data well first of all dave thank you so much for pointing that out we used to do uh just what we call a next a net score it's a proprietary formula that we use to determine the overall velocity of spending some people found it confusing um our data scientists decided to break this sector breakdown into what you said which is really more of a mode analysis in that sector how many of the vendors are increasing versus decreasing so again i just appreciate you bringing that up and allowing us to explain the the the reasoning behind our analysis there but what we're seeing here uh goes back to something you and i did last year when we did our predictions and that was that it services and consulting was going to have a true rebound in 2021 and that's what this is showing right here so in this chart you're going to see that consulting and services are really continuing their recovery uh 2020 had a lot of declines and they have the biggest sector over year-over-year acceleration sector-wise the other thing to point out in this which we'll get to again later is that the inverse analysis is true for video conferencing uh we will get to that so i'm going to leave a little bit of ammunition behind for that one but what we're seeing here is it consulting services being the real favorable and video conferencing uh having a little bit more trouble great okay and then let's let's take a look at that services piece and this next chart really is a drill down into that space and emphasizes eric what you were just talking about and we saw this in ibm's earnings where still more than 60 percent of ibm's business comes from services and the company beat earnings you know in part due to services outperforming expectations i think it had a somewhat easier compare and some of this pen-up demand that we've been talking about bodes well for ibm and in other services companies it's not just ibm right eric no it's not but again i'm going to point out that you and i did point out ibm in our in our predictions one we did in late december so it is nice to see one of the reasons we don't have a more favorable rating on ibm at the moment is because they are in the the process of spinning out uh this large unit and so there's a little bit of you know corporate action there that keeps us off on the sideline but i would also want to point out here uh tata infosys and cognizant because they're seeing year-over-year acceleration in both it consulting and outsourced i t services so we break those down separately and those are the three names that are seeing acceleration in both of those so again a tata emphasis and cognizant are all looking pretty well positioned as well so we've been talking a little bit about this skill shortage and this is what's i think so hard for for forecasters um is that you know on the one hand there's a lot of pent up demand you know it's like scott gottlieb said it's like woodstock coming out of the covid uh but on the other hand if you have a talent gap you've got to rely on external services so there's a learning curve there's a ramp up it's an external company and so it takes time to put those together so so this data that we're going to show you next uh is is really important in my view and ties what we're saying we're saying at the top it asks respondents to comment on their staffing plans the light blue is we're increasing staff the gray is no change in the magenta or whatever whatever color that is that sort of purplish color anyway that color is is decreasing and the picture is very positive across the board full-time staff offshoring contract employees outsourced professional services all up trending upwards and this eric is more evidence of the services bounce back yeah it certainly is david and what happened is when we caught this trend we decided to go one level deeper and say all right we're seeing this but we need to know why and that's what we always try to do here data will tell you what's happening it doesn't always tell you why and that's one of the things that etr really tries to dig in with through the insights interviews panels and also going direct with these more custom survey questions uh so in this instance i think the real takeaway is that 30 of the respondents said that their outsourced and managed services are going to increase over the next three months that's really powerful that's a large portion of organizations in a very short time period so we're capturing that this acceleration is happening right now and it will be happening in real time and i don't see it slowing down you and i are speaking about we have to you know increase cloud spend we have to increase hybrid spend there are refresh cycles coming up and there's just a real skill shortage so this is a long-term setup that bodes very well for it services and consulting you know eric when i came out of college i somebody told me read read read read as much as you can and and so i would and they said read the wall street journal every day and i so i did it and i would read the tech magazines and back then it was all paper and what happens is you begin to connect the dots and so the reason i bring that up is because i've now been had taken a bath in the etr data for the better part of two years and i'm beginning to be able to connect the dots you know the data is not always predictive but many many times it is and so this next data gets into the fun stuff where we name names a lot of times people don't like it because the marketing people and organizations say well the data's wrong of course that's the first thing they do is attack the data but you and i know we've made some really great calls work from home for sure you're talking about the services bounce back uh we certainly saw the rise of crowdstrike octa zscaler well before people were talking about that same thing with video conferencing and so so anyway this is the fun stuff and it looks at positive versus negative sentiment on on companies so first how does etr derive this data and how should we interpret it and what are some of your takeaways [Music] sure first of all how we derive the data or systematic um survey responses that we do on a quarterly basis and we standardize those responses to allow for time series analysis so we can do trend analysis as well we do find that our data because it's talking about forward-looking spending intentions is really more predictive because we're talking about things that might be happening six months three months in the future not things that a lot of other competitors and research peers are looking at things that already happened uh they're looking in the past etr really likes to look into the future and our surveys are set up to do so so thank you for that question it's an enjoyable lead-in but to get to the fun stuff like you said uh what we do here is we put ratings on the data sets i do want to put the caveat out there that our spending intentions really only captures top-line revenue it is not indicative of profit margin or any other line items so this is only going to be viewed as what we are rating the data set itself not the company um you know that's not what we're in the game of doing so i think that's very important for the marketing and the vendors out there themselves when they when they take a look at this we're just talking about what we can control which is our data we're going to talk about a few of the names here on this highlighted vendors list one we're going to go back to that you and i spoke about i guess about six months ago or maybe even earlier which was the observability space um you and i were noticing that it was getting very crowded a lot of new entrants um there was a lot of acquisition from more of the legacy or standard entrance players in the space and that is continuing so i think in a minute we're going to move into that observability space but what we're seeing there is that it's becoming incredibly crowded and we're possibly seeing signs of them cannibalizing each other uh we're also going to move on a little bit into video conferencing where we're capturing some spend deceleration and then ultimately we're going to get into a little bit of a storage refresh cycle and talk about that but yeah these are the highlighted vendors for april um we usually do this once a quarter and they do change based on the data but they're not usually whipsawed around the data doesn't move that quickly yeah so you can see the some of the big names on the left-hand side some of the sas companies that have momentum obviously servicenow has been doing very very well we've talked a lot about snowflake octa crowdstrike z scalar in all very positive as well as you know several others i i guess i'd add some some things i mean i think if thinking about the next decade it's it's cloud which is not going to be like the same cloud as last decade a lot of machine learning and deep learning and ai and the cloud is extending to the edge in the data center data obviously very important data is decentralized and distributed so data architectures are changing a lot of opportunities to connect across clouds and actually create abstraction layers and then something that we've been covering a lot is processor performance is actually accelerating relative to moore's law it's probably instead of doubling every two years it's quadrupling every two years and so that is a huge factor especially as it relates to powering ai and ai inferencing at the edge this is a whole new territory custom silicon is is really becoming in vogue uh and so we're something that we're watching very very closely yeah i completely completely agree on that and i do think that the the next version of cloud will be very different another thing to point out on that too is you can't do anything that you're talking about without collecting the data and and organizations are extremely serious about that now it seems it doesn't matter what industry they're in every company is a data company and that also bodes well for the storage call we do believe that there is going to just be a huge increase in the need for storage um and yes hopefully that'll become portable across multi-cloud and hybrid as well now as eric said the the etr data's it's it's really focused on that top line spend so if you look at the uh on on the right side of that chart you saw you know netapp was kind of negative was very negative right but there's a company that's in in transformation now they've lowered expectations and they've recently beat expectations that's why the stock has been doing better but but at the macro from a spending standpoint it's still challenged so you have big footprint companies like netapp and oracle is another one oracle's stock is at an all-time high but the spending relative to sort of previous cycles or relative to you know like for instance snowflake much much smaller not as high growth but they're managing expectations they're managing their transition they're managing profitability zoom is another one zoom looking looking negative but you know zoom's got to use its market cap now to to transform and increase its tam uh and then splunk is another one we're going to talk about splunk is in transition it acquired signal fx it just brought on this week teresa carlson who was the head of aws public sector she's the president and head of sales so they've got a go to market challenge and they brought in teresa carlson to really solve that but but splunk has been trending downward we called that you know several quarters ago eric and so i want to bring up the data on splunk and this is splunk eric in analytics and it's not trending in the right direction the green is accelerating span the red is and the bars is decelerating spend the top blue line is spending velocity or net score and the yellow line is market share or pervasiveness in the data set your thoughts yeah first i want to go back is a great point dave about our data versus a disconnect from an equity analysis perspective i used to be an equity analyst that is not what we do here and you you may the main word you said is expectations right stocks will trade on how they do compared to the expectations that are set uh whether that's buy side expectations sell side expectations or management's guidance themselves we have no business in tracking any of that what we are talking about is top line acceleration or deceleration so uh that was a great point to make and i do think it's an important one for all of our listeners out there now uh to move to splunk yes i've been capturing a lot of negative commentary on splunk even before the data turned so this has been about a year-long uh you know our analysis and review on this name and i'm dating myself here but i know you and i are both rock and roll fans so i'm gonna point out a led zeppelin song and movie and say that the song remains the same for splunk we are just seeing uh you know recent spending intentions are taking yet another step down both from prior survey levels from year ago levels uh this we're looking at in the analytics sector and spending intentions are decelerating across every single customer group if we went to one of our other slide analysis um on the etr plus platform and you do by customer sub sample in analytics it's dropping in every single vertical it doesn't matter which one uh it's really not looking good unfortunately and you had mentioned this as an analytics and i do believe the next slide is an information security yeah let's bring that up and it's unfortunately it's not doing much better so this is specifically fortune 500 accounts and information security uh you know there's deep pockets in the fortune 500 but from what we're hearing in all the insights and interviews and panels that i personally moderate for etr people are upset they didn't like the the strong tactics that splunk has used on them in the past they didn't like the ingestion model pricing the inflexibility and when alternatives came along people are willing to look at the alternatives and that's what we're seeing in both analytics and big data and also for their sim in security yeah so i think again i i point to teresa carlson she's got a big job but she's very capable she's gonna she's gonna meet with a lot of customers she's a go to market pro she's gonna have to listen hard and i think you're gonna you're gonna see some changes there um okay so there's more sorry there's more bad news on splunk so bring this up is is is net score for splunk in elastic accounts uh this is for analytics so there's 106 elastic accounts that uh in the data set that also have splunk and it's trending downward for splunk that's why it's green for elastic and eric the important call out from etr here is how splunk's performance in elastic accounts compares with its performance overall the elk stack which obviously elastic is a big part of that is causing pain for splunk as is data dog and you mentioned the pricing issue uh is it is it just well is it pricing in your assessment or is it more fundamental you know it's multi-level based on the commentary we get from our itdms that take the survey so yes you did a great job with this analysis what we're looking at is uh the spending within shared accounts so if i have splunk already how am i spending i'm sorry if i have elastic already how is my spending on splunk and what you're seeing here is it's down to about a 12 net score whereas splunk overall has a 32 net score among all of its customers so what you're seeing there is there is definitely a drain that's happening where elastic is draining spend from splunk and usage from them uh the reason we used elastic here is because all observabilities the whole sector seems to be decelerating splunk is decelerating the most but elastic is the only one that's actually showing resiliency so that's why we decided to choose these two but you pointed out yes it's also datadog datadog is cloud native uh they're more devops oriented they tend to be viewed as having technological lead as compared to splunk so that's a really good point a dynatrace also is expanding their abilities and splunk has been making a lot of acquisitions to push their cloud services they are also changing their pricing model right they're they're trying to make things a little bit more flexible moving off ingestion um and moving towards uh you know consumption so they are trying and the new hires you know i'm not gonna bet against them because the one thing that splunk has going for them is their market share in our survey they're still very well entrenched so they do have a lot of accounts they have their foothold so if they can find a way to make these changes then they you know will be able to change themselves but the one thing i got to say across the whole sector is competition is increasing and it does appear based on commentary and data that they're starting to cannibalize themselves it really seems pretty hard to get away from that and you know there are startups in the observability space too that are going to be you know even more disruptive i think i think i want to key on the pricing for a moment and i've been pretty vocal about this i think the the old sas pricing model where essentially you essentially lock in for a year or two years or three years pay up front or maybe pay quarterly if you're lucky that's a one-way street and i think it's it's a flawed model i like what snowflake's doing i like what datadog's doing look at what stripe is doing look what twilio is doing these are cons you mentioned it because it's consumption based pricing and if you've got a great product put it out there and you know damn the torpedoes and i think that is a game changer i i look at for instance hpe with green lake i look at dell with apex they're trying to mimic that model you know they're there and apply it to to infrastructure it's much harder with infrastructure because you got to deploy physical infrastructure but but that is a model that i think is going to change and i think all of the traditional sas pricing is going to is going to come under disruption over the next you know better part of the decades but anyway uh let's move on we've we've been covering the the apm space uh pretty extensively application performance management and this chart lines up some of the big players here comparing net score or spending momentum from the april 20th survey the gray is is um is sorry the the the gray is the april 20th survey the blue is jan 21 and the yellow is april 21. and not only are elastic and data dog doing well relative to splunk eric but everything is down from last year so this space as you point out is undergoing a transformation yeah the pressures are real and it's you know it's sort of that perfect storm where it's not only the data that's telling us that but also the direct feedback we get from the community uh pretty much all the interviews i do i've done a few panels specifically on this topic for anyone who wants to you know dive a little bit deeper we've had some experts talk about this space and there really is no denying that there is a deceleration in spend and it's happening because that spend is getting spread out among different vendors people are using you know a data dog for certain aspects they're using elastic where they can because it's cheaper they're using splunk because they have to but because it's so expensive they're cutting some of the things that they're putting into splunk which is dangerous particularly on the security side if i have to decide what to put in and whatnot that's not really the right way to have security hygiene um so you know this space is just getting crowded there's disruptive vendors coming from the emerging space as well and what you're seeing here is the only bit of positivity is elastic on a survey over survey basis with a slight slight uptick everywhere else year over year and survey over survey it's showing declines it's just hard to ignore and then you've got dynatrace who based on the the interviews you do in the venn you're you know one on one or one on five you know the private interviews that i've been invited to dynatrace gets very high scores uh for their road map you've got new relic which has been struggling you know financially but they've got a purpose built they've got a really good product and a purpose-built database just for this apm space and then of course you've got cisco with appd which is a strong business for them and then as you mentioned you've got startups coming in you've got chaos search which ed walsh is now running you know leave the data in place in aws and really interesting model honeycomb it's going to be really disruptive jeremy burton's company observed so this space is it's becoming jump ball yeah there's a great line that came out of one of them and that was that the lines are blurring it used to be that you knew exactly that app dynamics what they were doing it was apm only or it was logging and monitoring only and a lot of what i'm hearing from the itdm experts is that the lines are blurring amongst all of these names they all have functionality that kind of crosses over each other and the other interesting thing is it used to be application versus infrastructure monitoring but as you know infrastructure is becoming code more and more and more and as infrastructure becomes code there's really no difference between application and infrastructure monitoring so we're seeing a convergence and a blurring of the lines in this space which really doesn't bode well and a great point about new relic their tech gets good remarks uh i just don't know if their enterprise level service and sales is up to snuff right now um as one of my experts said a cto of a very large public online hospitality company essentially said that he would be shocked that within 18 months if all of these players are still uh standalone that there needs to be some m a or convergence in this space okay now we're going to call out some of the data that that really has jumped out to etr in the latest survey and some of the names that are getting the most queries from etr clients which are many of which are investor clients so let's start by having a look at one of the most important and prominent work from home names zoom uh let's let's look at this eric is the ride over for zoom oh i've been saying it for a little bit of a time now actually i do believe it is um i will get into it but again pointing out great dave uh the reason we're presenting today splunk elastic and zoom are they are the most viewed on the etr plus platform uh trailing behind that only slightly is f5 i decided not to bring f5 to the table today because we don't have a rating on the data set um so then i went one deep one below that and it's pure so the reason we're presenting these to you today is that these are the ones that our clients and our community are most interested in which is hopefully going to gain interest to your viewers as well so to get to zoom um yeah i call zoom the pandec pandemic bull market baby uh this was really just one that had a meteoric ride you look back january in 2020 the stock was at 60 and 10 months later it was like like 580. that's in 10 months um that's cooled down a little bit uh into the mid 300s and i believe that cooling down should continue and the reason why is because we are seeing a huge deceleration in our spending intentions uh they're hitting all-time lows it's really just a very ugly data set um more importantly than the spending intentions for the first time we're seeing customer growth in our survey flattened in the past we could we knew that the the deceleration and spend was happening but meanwhile their new customer growth was accelerating so it was kind of hard to really make any call based on that this is the first time we're seeing flattening customer growth trajectory and that uh in tandem with just dominance from microsoft in every sector they're involved in i don't care if it's ip telephony productivity apps or the core video conferencing microsoft is just dominating so there's really just no way to ignore this anymore the data and the commentary state that zoom is facing some headwinds well plus you've pointed out to me that a lot of your private conversations with buyers says that hey we're we're using the freebie version of zoom you know we're not paying them and so in that combined with teams i mean it's it's uh it's i think you know look zoom has to figure it out they they've got to they've got to figure out how to use their elevated market cap to transform and expand their tan um but let's let's move on here's the data on pure storage and we've highlighted a number of times this company is showing elevated spending intentions um pure announces earnings in in may ibm uh just announced storage what uh it was way down actually so sort of still pure more positive but i'll comment on a moment but what does this data tell you eric yeah you know right now we started seeing this data last survey in january and that was the first time we really went positive on the data set itself and it's just really uh continuing so we're seeing the strongest year-over-year acceleration in the entire survey um which is a really good spot to be pure is also a leading position in among its sector peers and the other thing that was pretty interesting from the data set is among all storage players pure has the highest positive public cloud correlation so what we can do is we can see which respondents are accelerating their public cloud spend and then cross-reference that with their storage spend and pure is best positioned so as you and i both know uh you know digital transformation cloud spending is increasing you need to be aligned with that and among all storage uh sector peers uh pure is best positioned in all of those in spending intentions and uh adoptions and also public cloud correlation so yet again just another really strong data set and i have an anecdote about why this might be happening because when i saw the date i started asking in my interviews what's going on here and there was one particular person he was a director of cloud operations for a very large public tech company now they have hybrid um but their data center is in colo so they don't own and build their own physical building he pointed out that doran kovid his company wanted to increase storage but he couldn't get into his colo center due to covert restrictions they weren't allowed you had so 250 000 square feet right but you're only allowed to have six people in there so it's pretty hard to get to your rack and get work done he said he would buy storage but then the cola would say hey you got to get it out of here it's not even allowed to sit here we don't want it in our facility so he has all this pent up demand in tandem with pent up demand we have a refresh cycle the ssd you know depreciation uh you know cycle is ending uh you know ssds are moving on and we're starting to see uh new technology in that space nvme sorry for technology increasing in that space so we have pent up demand and we have new technology and that's really leading to a refresh cycle and this particular itdm that i spoke to and many of his peers think this has a long tailwind that uh storage could be a good sector for some time to come that's really interesting thank you for that that extra metadata and i want to do a little deeper dive on on storage so here's a look at storage in the the industry in context and some of the competitive i mean it's been a tough market for the reasons that we've highlighted cloud has been eating away that flash headroom it used to be you'd buy storage to get you know more spindles and more performance and you were sort of forced to buy more flash gave more headroom but it's interesting what you're saying about the depreciation cycle so that's good news so etr combines just for people's benefit here combines primary and secondary storage into a single category so you have companies like pure and netapp which are really pure play you know primary storage companies largely in the sector along with veeam cohesity and rubric which are kind of secondary data or data protection so my my quick thoughts here are that pure is elevated and remains what i call the one-eyed man in the land of the blind but that's positive tailwinds there so that's good news rubric is very elevated but down it's a big it's big competitor cohesity is way off its highs and i have to say to me veeam is like the steady eddy consistent player here they just really continue to do well in the data protection business and and the highs are steady the lows are steady dell is also notable they've been struggling in storage their isg business which comprises service and storage it's been soft during covid and and during even you know this new product rollout so it's notable with this new mid-range they have in particular the uptick in dell this survey because dell so large a small uptick can be very good for dell hpe has a big announcement next month in storage so that might improve based on a product cycle of course the nimble brand continues to do well ibm as i said just announced a very soft quarter you know down double digits again uh and there in a product cycle shift and netapp is that looks bad in the etr data from a spending momentum standpoint but their management team is transforming the company into a cloud play which eric is why it was interesting that pure has the greatest momentum in in cloud accounts so that is sort of striking to me i would have thought it would be netapp so that's something that we want to pay attention to but i do like a lot of what netapp is doing uh and other than pure they're the only big kind of pure play in primary storage so long winded uh uh intro there eric but anything you'd add no actually i appreciate it was long winded i i'm going to be honest with you storage is not my uh my best sector as far as a researcher and analyst goes uh but i actually think a lot of what you said is spot on um you know we do capture a lot of large organizations spend uh we don't capture much mid and small so i think when you're talking about these large large players like netapp and um you know not looking so good all i would state is that we are capturing really big organizations spending attention so these are names that should be doing better to be quite honest uh in those accounts and you know at least according to our data we're not seeing it and it's long-term depression as you can see uh you know netapp now has a negative spending velocity in this analysis so you know i can go dig around a little bit more but right now the names that i'm hearing are pure cohesity uh um i'm hearing a little bit about hitachi trying to reinvent themselves in the space but you know i'll take a wait-and-see approach on that one but uh pure and cohesity are the ones i'm hearing a lot from our community so storage is transforming to cloud as a service you're seeing things like apex and in green lake from dell and hpe and container storage little so not really a lot of people paying attention to it but pure about a company called portworx which really specializes in container storage and there's many startups there they're trying to really change the way david flynn has a startup in that space he's the guy who started fusion i o so a lot a lot of transformations happening here okay i know it's been a long segment we have to summarize and then let me go through a summary and then i'll give you the last word eric so tech spending appears to be tracking us gdp at six to seven percent this talent shortage could be a blocker to accelerating i.t deployments and that's kind of good news actually for for services companies digital transformation you know it's it remains a priority and that bodes well not only for services but automation uipath went public this week we we profiled that you know extensively that went public last wednesday um organizations they've i said at the top face some tough decisions on how to allocate resources you know running the business growing the business transforming the business and we're seeing a bifurcation of spending and some residual effects on vendors and that remains a theme that we're watching eric your final thoughts yeah i'm going to go back quickly to just the overall macro spending because there's one thing i think is interesting to point out and we're seeing a real acceleration among mid and small so it seems like early on in the covid recovery or kovitz spending it was the deep pockets that moved first right fortune 500 knew they had to support remote work they started spending first round that in the fortune 500 we're only seeing about five percent spent but when you get into mid and small organizations that's creeping up to eight nine so i just think it's important to point out that they're playing catch-up right now uh also would point out that this is heavily skewed to north america spending we're seeing laggards in emea they just don't seem to be spending as much they're in a very different place in their recovery and uh you know i do think that it's important to point that out um lastly i also want to mention i know you do such a great job on following a lot of the disruptive vendors that you just pointed out pure doing container storage we also have another bi-annual survey that we do called emerging technology and that's for the private names that's going to be launching in may for everyone out there who's interested in not only the disruptive vendors but also private equity players uh keep an eye out for that we do that twice a year and that's growing in its respondents as well and then lastly one comment because you mentioned the uipath ipo it was really hard for us to sit on the sidelines and not put some sort of rating on their data set but ultimately um the data was muted unfortunately and when you're seeing this kind of hype into an ipo like we saw with snowflake the data was resoundingly strong we had no choice but to listen to what the data said for snowflake despite the hype um we didn't see that for uipath and we wanted to and i'm not making a large call there but i do think it's interesting to juxtapose the two that when snowflake was heading to its ipo the data was resoundingly positive and for uipath we just didn't see that thank you for that and eric thanks for coming on today it's really a pleasure to have you and uh so really appreciate the the uh collaboration and look forward to doing more of these we enjoy the partnership greatly dave we're very very happy to have you in the etr family and looking forward to doing a lot lot more with you in the future ditto okay that's it for today remember these episodes are all available as podcasts wherever you listen all you got to do is search breaking analysis podcast and please subscribe to the series check out etr's website it's etr dot plus we also publish a full report every week on wikibon.com at siliconangle.com you can email me david.velante at siliconangle.com you can dm me on twitter at dvalante or comment on our linkedin post i could see you in clubhouse this is dave vellante for eric porter bradley for the cube insights powered by etr have a great week stay safe be well and we'll see you next time

>> From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto and Boston, Bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR. This is "Breaking Analysis" with Dave Vellante. >> Recent survey data from ETR shows that enterprise tech spending is tracking with projected US GDP growth at six to 7% this year. Many markers continue to point the way to a strong recovery, including hiring trends and the loosening of frozen IT Project budgets. However skills shortages are blocking progress at some companies which bodes well for an increased reliance on external IT services. Moreover, while there's much talk about the rotation out of work from home plays and stocks such as video conferencing, VDI, and other remote worker tech, we see organizations still trying to figure out the ideal balance between funding headquarter investments that have been neglected and getting hybrid work right. In particular, the talent gap combined with a digital mandate, means companies face some tough decisions as to how to fund the future while serving existing customers and transforming culturally. Hello everyone, and welcome to this week's Wikibon CUBE's Insights powered by ETR. In this "Breaking Analysis", we welcome back Erik Porter Bradley of ETR who will share fresh data, perspectives and insights from the latest survey data. Erik, great to see you. Welcome. >> Thank you very much, Dave. Always good to see you and happy to be on the show again. >> Okay, we're going to share some macro data and then we're going to dig into some highlights from ETR's most recent March COVID survey and also the latest April data. So Erik, the first chart that we want to show, it shows CIO and IT buyer responses to expected IT spend for each quarter of 2021 versus 2020, and you can see here a steady quarterly improvement. Erik, what are the key takeaways, from your perspective? >> Sure, well, first of all, for everyone out there, this particular survey had a record-setting number of participation. We had a 1,500 IT decision makers participate and we had over half of the Fortune 500 and over a fifth of the Global 1000. So it was a really good survey. This is seventh iteration of the COVID Impact Survey specifically, and this is going to transition to an overlarge macro survey going forward so we can continue it. And you're 100% right, what we've been tracking here since March of last year was, how is spending being impacted because of COVID? Where is it shifting? And what we're seeing now finally is that there is a real re-acceleration in spend. I know we've been a little bit more cautious than some of the other peers out there that just early on slapped an eight or a 9% number, but what we're seeing is right now, it's at a midpoint of over six, about 6.7% and that is accelerating. So, we are still hopeful that that will continue, and really, that spending is going to be in the second half of the year. As you can see on the left part of this chart that we're looking at, it was about 1.7% versus 3% for Q1 spending year-over-year. So that is starting to accelerate through the back half. >> I think it's prudent to be cautious (indistinct) 'cause normally you'd say, okay, tech is going to grow a couple of points higher than GDP, but it's really so hard to predict this year. Okay, the next chart here that we want to show you is we asked respondents to indicate what strategies they're employing in the short term as a result of coronavirus and you can see a few things that I'll call out and then I'll ask Erik to chime in. First, there's been no meaningful change of course, no surprise in tactics like remote work and holding travel, however, we're seeing very positive trends in other areas trending downward, like hiring freezes and freezing IT deployments, a downward trend in layoffs, and we also see an increase in the acceleration of new IT deployments and in hiring. Erik, what are your key takeaways? >> Well, first of all, I think it's important to point out here that we're also capturing that people believe remote work productivity is still increasing. Now, the trajectory might be coming down a little bit, but that is really key, I think, to the backdrop of what's happening here. So people have a perception that productivity of remote work is better than hybrid work and that's from the IT decision makers themselves, but what we're seeing here is that, most importantly, these organizations are citing plans to increase hiring, and that's something that I think is really important to point out. It's showing a real following, and to your point right in the beginning of the intro, we are seeing deployments stabilize versus prior survey levels, which means early on, they had no plans to launch new tech deployments, then they said, "Nope, we're going to start." and now that stalling, and I think it's exactly right, what you said, is there's an IT skills shortage. So people want to continue to do IT deployments 'cause they have to support work from home and a hybrid back return to the office, but they just don't have the skills to do so, and I think that's really probably the most important takeaway from this chart, is that stalling and to really ask why it's stalling. >> Yeah, so we're going to get into that for sure, and I think that's a really key point, is that accelerating IT deployments, it looks like it's hit a wall in the survey, but before we get deep into the skills, let's take a look at this next chart, and we're asking people here how our return to the new normal, if you will, and back to offices is going to change spending with on-prem architectures and applications. And so the first two bars, they're Cloud-friendly, if you add them up, it's 63% of the respondents, say that either they'll stay in the Cloud for the most part, or they're going to lower their on-prem spend when they go back to the office. The next three bars are on-prem friendly. If you add those up it's 29% of the respondents say their on-prem spend is going to bounce back to pre-COVID levels or actually increase, and of course, 12% of that number, by the way, say they've never altered their on-prem spend. So Erik, no surprise, but this bodes well for Cloud, but isn't it also a positive for on-prem? We've had this dual funding premise, meaning Cloud continues to grow, but neglected data center spend also gets a boost. What's your thoughts? >> Really, it's interesting. It's people are spending on all fronts. You and I were talking in the prep, it's like we're in battle and I've got naval, I've got air, I've got land, I've got to spend on Cloud and digital transformation, but I also have to spend for on-prem. The hybrid work is here and it needs to be supported. So this is spending is going to increase. When you look at this chart, you're going to see though, that roughly 36% of all respondents say that their spending is going to remain mostly on Cloud. So that is still the clear direction, digital transformation is still happening, COVID accelerated it greatly, you and I, as journalists and researchers already know this is where the puck is going, but spend has always lagged a little bit behind 'cause it just takes some time to get there. Inversely, 27% said that their on-prem spending will decrease. So when you look at those two, I still think that the trend is the friend for Cloud spending, even though, yes, they do have to continue spending on hybrid, some of it's been neglected, there are refresh cycles coming up, so, overall it just points to more and more spending right now. It really does seem to be a very strong backdrop for IT growth. >> So I want to talk a little bit about the ETR taxonomy before we bring up the next chart. We get a lot of questions about this, and of course, when you do a massive survey like you're doing, you have to have consistency for time series, so you have to really think through what the buckets look like, if you will. So this next chart takes a look at the ETR taxonomy and it breaks it down into simple-to-understand terms. So the green is the portion of spending on a vendor's tech within a category that is accelerating, and the red is the portion that is decelerating. So Erik, what are the key messages in this data? >> Well, first of all, Dave, thank you so much for pointing that out. We used to do, just what we call a Net score. It's a proprietary formula that we use to determine the overall velocity of spending. Some people found it confusing. Our data scientists decided to break this sector, break down into what you said, which is really more of a mode analysis. In that sector, how many of the vendors are increasing versus decreasing? So again, I just appreciate you bringing that up and allowing us to explain the reasoning behind our analysis there. But what we're seeing here goes back to something you and I did last year when we did our predictions, and that was that IT services and consulting was going to have a true rebound in 2021, and that's what this is showing right here. So in this chart, you're going to see that consulting and services are really continuing their recovery, 2020 had a lot of the clients and they have the biggest sector year-over-year acceleration sector wise. The other thing to point out on this, which we'll get to again later, is that the inverse analysis is true for video conferencing. We will get to that, so I'm going to leave a little bit of ammunition behind for that one, but what we're seeing here is IT consulting services being the real favorable and video conferencing having a little bit more trouble. >> Great, okay, and then let's take a look at that services piece, and this next chart really is a drill down into that space and emphasizes, Erik, what you were just talking about. And we saw this in IBM's earnings, where still more than 60% of IBM's business comes from services and the company beat earnings, in part, due to services outperforming expectations, I think it had a somewhat easier compare and some of this pent-up demand that we've been talking about bodes well for IBM and other services companies, it's not just IBM, right, Erik? >> No, it's not, but again, I'm going to point out that you and I did point out IBM in our predictions when we did in late December, so, it is nice to see. One of the reasons we don't have a more favorable rating on IBM at the moment is because they are in the process of spinning out this large unit, and so there's a little bit of a corporate action there that keeps us off on the sideline. But I would also want to point out here, Tata, Infosys and Cognizant 'cause they're seeing year-over-year acceleration in both IT consulting and outsourced IT services. So we break those down separately and those are the three names that are seeing acceleration in both of those. So again, at the Tata, Infosys and Cognizant are all looking pretty well positioned as well. >> So we've been talking a little bit about this skills shortage, and this is what's, I think, so hard for forecasters, is that in the one hand, There's a lot of pent up demand, Scott Gottlieb said it's like Woodstock coming out of the COVID, but on the other hand, if you have a talent gap, you've got to rely on external services. So there's a learning curve, there's a ramp up, it's an external company, and so it takes time to put those together. So this data that we're going to show you next, is really important in my view and ties what we were saying at the top. It asks respondents to comment on their staffing plans. The light blue is "We're increasing staff", the gray is "No change" and the magenta or whatever, whatever color that is that sort of purplish color, anyway, that color is decreasing, and the picture is very positive across the board. Full-time staff, offshoring, contract employees, outsourced professional services, all up trending upwards, and this Erik is more evidence of the services bounce back. >> Yeah, it's certainly, yes, David, and what happened is when we caught this trend, we decided to go one level deeper and say, all right, we're seeing this, but we need to know why, and that's what we always try to do here. Data will tell you what's happening, it doesn't always tell you why, and that's one of the things that ETR really tries to dig in with through the insights, interviews panels, and also going direct with these more custom survey questions. So in this instance, I think the real takeaway is that 30% of the respondents said that their outsourced and managed services are going to increase over the next three months. That's really powerful, that's a large portion of organizations in a very short time period. So we're capturing that this acceleration is happening right now and it will be happening in real time, and I don't see it slowing down. You and I are speaking about we have to increase Cloud spend, we have to increase hybrid spend, there are refresh cycles coming up, and there's just a real skills shortage. So this is a long-term setup that bodes very well for IT services and consulting. >> You know, Erik, when I came out of college, somebody told me, "Read, read, read, read as much as you can." And then they said, "Read the Wall Street Journal every day." and so I did it, and I would read the tech magazines and back then it was all paper, and what happens is you begin to connect the dots. And so the reason I bring that up is because I've now taken a bath in the ETR data for the better part of two years and I'm beginning to be able to connect the dots. The data is not always predictive, but many, many times it is. And so this next data gets into the fun stuff where we name names. A lot of times people don't like it because they're either marketing people at organizations, say, "Well, data's wrong." because that's the first thing they do, is attack the data. But you and I know, we've made some really great calls, work from home, for sure, you're talking about the services bounce back. We certainly saw the rise of CrowdStrike, Okta, Zscaler, well before people were talking about that, same thing with video conferencing. And so, anyway, this is the fun stuff and it looks at positive versus negative sentiment on companies. So first, how does ETR derive this data and how should we interpret it, and what are some of your takeaways? >> Sure, first of all, how we derive the data, are systematic survey responses that we do on a quarterly basis, and we standardize those responses to allow for time series analysis so we can do trend analysis as well. We do find that our data, because it's talking about forward-looking spending intentions, is really more predictive because we're talking about things that might be happening six months, three months in the future, not things that a lot of other competitors and research peers are looking at things that already happened, they're looking in the past, ETR really likes to look into the future and our surveys are set up to do so. So thank you for that question, It's a enjoyable lead in, but to get to the fun stuff, like you said, what we do here is we put ratings on the datasets. I do want to put the caveat out there that our spending intentions really only captures top-line revenue. It is not indicative of profit margin or any other line items, so this is only to be viewed as what we are rating the data set itself, not the company, that's not what we're in the game of doing. So I think that's very important for the marketing and the vendors out there themselves when they take a look at this. We're just talking about what we can control, which is our data. We're going to talk about a few of the names here on this highlighted vendors list. One, we're going to go back to that you and I spoke about, I guess, about six months ago, or maybe even earlier, which was the observability space. You and I were noticing that it was getting very crowded, a lot of new entrants, there was a lot of acquisition from more of the legacy or standard players in the space, and that is continuing. So I think in a minute, we're going to move into that observability space, but what we're seeing there is that it's becoming incredibly crowded and we're possibly seeing signs of them cannibalizing each other. We're also going to move on a little bit into video conferencing, where we're capturing some spend deceleration, and then ultimately, we're going to get into a little bit of a storage refresh cycle and talk about that. But yeah, these are the highlighted vendors for April, we usually do this once a quarter and they do change based on the data, but they're not usually whipsawed around, the data doesn't move that quickly. >> Yeah, so you can see some of the big names in the left-hand side, some of the SAS companies that have momentum. Obviously, ServiceNow has been doing very, very well. We've talked a lot about Snowflake, Okta, CrowdStrike, Zscaler, all very positive, as well as several others. I guess I'd add some things. I mean, I think if thinking about the next decade, it's Cloud, which is not going to be like the same Cloud as the last decade, a lot of machine learning and deep learning and AI and the Cloud is extending to the edge and the data center. Data, obviously, very important, data is decentralized and distributed, so data architectures are changing. A lot of opportunities to connect across Clouds and actually create abstraction layers, and then something that we've been covering a lot is processor performance is actually accelerating relative to Moore's law. It's probably instead of doubling every two years, it's quadrupling every two years, and so that is a huge factor, especially as it relates to powering AI and AI inferencing at the edge. This is a whole new territory, custom Silicon is really becoming in vogue and so something that we're watching very, very closely. >> Yeah, I completely, agree on that and I do think that the next version of Cloud will be very different. Another thing to point out on that too, is you can't do anything that you're talking about without collecting the data and organizations are extremely serious about that now. It seems it doesn't matter what industry they're in, every company is a data company, and that also bodes well for the storage goal. We do believe that there is going to just be a huge increase in the need for storage, and yes, hopefully that'll become portable across multi-Cloud and hybrid as well. >> Now, as Erik said, the ETR data, it's really focused on that top-line spend. So if you look on the right side of that chart, you saw NetApp was kind of negative, was very negative, right? But it is a company that's in transformation now, they've lowered expectations and they've recently beat expectations, that's why the stock has been doing better, but at the macro, from a spending standpoint, it's still stout challenged. So you have big footprint companies like NetApp and Oracle is another one. Oracle's stock is at an all time high, but the spending relative to sort of previous cycles are relative to, like for instance, Snowflake, much, much smaller, not as high growth, but they're managing expectations, they're managing their transition, they're managing profitability. Zoom is another one, Zoom looking negative, but Zoom's got to use its market cap now to transform and increase its TAM. And then Splunk is another one we're going to talk about. Splunk is in transition, it acquired SignalFX, It just brought on this week, Teresa Carlson, who was the head of AWS Public Sector. She's the president and head of sales, so they've got a go-to-market challenge and they brought in Teresa Carlson to really solve that, but Splunk has been trending downward, we called that several quarters ago, Erik, and so I want to bring up the data on Splunk, and this is Splunk, Erik, in analytics, and it's not trending in the right direction. The green is accelerating spend, the red is in the bars is decelerating spend, the top blue line is spending velocity or Net score, and the yellow line is market share or pervasiveness in the dataset. Your thoughts. >> Yeah, first I want to go back. There's a great point, Dave, about our data versus a disconnect from an equity analysis perspective. I used to be an equity analyst, that is not what we do here. And the main word you said is expectations, right? Stocks will trade on how they do compare to the expectations that are set, whether that's buy-side expectations, sell-side expectations or management's guidance themselves. We have no business in tracking any of that, what we are talking about is the top-line acceleration or deceleration. So, that was a great point to make, and I do think it's an important one for all of our listeners out there. Now, to move to Splunk, yes, I've been capturing a lot of negative commentary on Splunk even before the data turns. So this has been a about a year-long, our analysis and review on this name and I'm dating myself here, but I know you and I are both rock and roll fans, so I'm going to point out a Led Zeppelin song and movie, and say that the song remains the same for Splunk. We are just seeing recent spending attentions are taking yet another step down, both from prior survey levels, from year ago levels. This, we're looking at in the analytics sector and spending intentions are decelerating across every single group, and we went to one of our other slide analysis on the ETR+ platform, and you do by customer sub-sample, in analytics, it's dropping in every single vertical. It doesn't matter which one. it's really not looking good, unfortunately, and you had mentioned this is an analytics and I do believe the next slide is an information security. >> Yeah, let's bring that up. >> And unfortunately it's not doing much better. So this is specifically Fortune 500 accounts and information security. There's deep pockets in the Fortune 500, but from what we're hearing in all the insights and interviews and panels that I personally moderate for ETR, people are upset, that they didn't like the strong tactics that Splunk has used on them in the past, they didn't like the ingestion model pricing, the inflexibility, and when alternatives came along, people are willing to look at the alternatives, and that's what we're seeing in both analytics and big data and also for their SIM and security. >> Yeah, so I think again, I pointed Teresa Carlson. She's got a big job, but she's very capable. She's going to meet with a lot of customers, she's a go-to-market pro, she's going to to have to listen hard, and I think you're going to see some changes there. Okay, so sorry, there's more bad news on Splunk. So (indistinct) bring this up is Net score for Splunk and Elastic accounts. This is for analytics, so there's 106 Elastic accounts in the dataset that also have Splunk and it's trending downward for Splunk, that's why it's green for Elastic. And Erik, the important call out from ETR here is how Splunk's performance in Elastic accounts compares with its performance overall. The ELK stack, which obviously Elastic is a big part of that, is causing pain for Splunk, as is Datadog, and you mentioned the pricing issue, well, is it pricing in your assessment or is it more fundamental? >> It's multi-level based on the commentary we get from our ITDMs teams that take the survey. So yes, you did a great job with this analysis. What we're looking at is the spending within shared accounts. So if I have Splunk already, how am I spending? I'm sorry if I have Elastic already, how am I spending on Splunk? And what you're seeing here is it's down to about a 12% Net score, whereas Splunk overall, has a 32% Net score among all of its customers. So what you're seeing there is there is definitely a drain that's happening where Elastic is draining spend from Splunk and usage from them. The reason we used Elastic here is because all observabilities, the whole sector seems to be decelerating. Splunk is decelerating the most, but Elastic is the only one that's actually showing resiliency, so that's why we decided to choose these two, but you pointed out, yes, it's also Datadog. Datadog is Cloud native. They're more dev ops-oriented. They tend to be viewed as having technological lead as compared to Splunk. So a really good point. Dynatrace also is expanding their abilities and Splunk has been making a lot of acquisitions to push their Cloud services, they are also changing their pricing model, right? They're trying to make things a little bit more flexible, moving off ingestion and moving towards consumption. So they are trying, and the new hires, I'm not going to bet against them because the one thing that Splunk has going for them is their market share in our survey, they're still very well entrenched. So they do have a lot of accounts, they have their foothold. So if they can find a way to make these changes, then they will be able to change themselves, but the one thing I got to say across the whole sector is competition is increasing, and it does appear based on commentary and data that they're starting to cannibalize themselves. It really seems pretty hard to get away from that, and you know there are startups in the observability space too that are going to be even more disruptive. >> I think I want to key on the pricing for a moment, and I've been pretty vocal about this. I think the old SAS pricing model where you essentially lock in for a year or two years or three years, pay up front, or maybe pay quarterly if you're lucky, that's a one-way street and I think it's a flawed model. I like what Snowflake's doing, I like what Datadog's doing, look at what Stripe is doing, look at what Twilio is doing, you mentioned it, it's consumption-based pricing, and if you've got a great product, put it out there and damn, the torpedoes, and I think that is a game changer. I look at, for instance, HPE with GreenLake, I look at Dell with Apex, they're trying to mimic that model and apply it to infrastructure, it's much harder with infrastructure 'cause you've got to deploy physical infrastructure, but that is a model that I think is going to change, and I think all of the traditional SAS pricing is going to come under disruption over the next better part of the decades, but anyway, let's move on. We've been covering the APM space pretty extensively, application performance management, and this chart lines up some of the big players here. Comparing Net score or spending momentum from the April 20th survey, the gray is, sorry, the gray is the April 20th survey, the blue is Jan 21 and the yellow is April 21, and not only are Elastic and Datadog doing well relative to Splunk, Erik, but everything is down from last year. So this space, as you point out, is undergoing a transformation. >> Yeah, the pressures are real and it's sort of that perfect storm where it's not only the data that's telling us that, but also the direct feedback we get from the community. Pretty much all the interviews I do, I've done a few panels specifically on this topic, for anyone who wants to dive a little bit deeper. We've had some experts talk about this space and there really is no denying that there is a deceleration in spend and it's happening because that spend is getting spread out among different vendors. People are using a Datadog for certain aspects, they are using Elastic where they can 'cause it's cheaper. They're using Splunk because they have to, but because it's so expensive, they're cutting some of the things that they're putting into Splunk, which is dangerous, particularly on the security side. If I have to decide what to put in and whatnot, that's not really the right way to have security hygiene. So this space is just getting crowded, there's disruptive vendors coming from the emerging space as well, and what you're seeing here is the only bit of positivity is Elastic on a survey-over-survey basis with a slight, slight uptick. Everywhere else, year-over-year and survey-over-survey, it's showing declines, it's just hard to ignore. >> And then you've got Dynatrace who, based on the interviews you do in the (indistinct), one-on-one, or one-on-five, the private interviews that I've been invited to, Dynatrace gets very high scores for their roadmap. You've got New Relic, which has been struggling financially, but they've got a really good product and a purpose-built database just for this APM space, and then of course, you've got Cisco with AppD, which is a strong business for them, and then as you mentioned, you've got startups coming in, you got ChaosSearch, which Ed Walsh is now running, leave the data in place in AWS and really interesting model, Honeycomb is getting really disruptive, Jeremy Burton's company, Observed. So this space is it's becoming jumped ball. >> Yeah, there's a great line that came out of one of them, and that was that the lines are blurring. It used to be that you knew exactly that AppDynamics, what they were doing, it was APM only, or it was logging and monitoring only, and a lot of what I'm hearing from the ITDM experts is that the lines are blurring amongst all of these names. They all have functionality that kind of crosses over each other. And the other interesting thing is it used to be application versus infrastructure monitoring, but as you know, infrastructure is becoming code more and more and more, and as infrastructure becomes code, there's really no difference between application and infrastructure monitoring. So we're seeing a convergence and a blurring of the lines in this space, which really doesn't bode well, and a great point about New Relic, their tech gets good remarks. I just don't know if their enterprise level service and sales is up to snuff right now. As one of my experts said, a CTO of a very large public online hospitality company essentially said that he would be shocked that within 18 months if all of these players are still standalone, that there needs to be some M and A or convergence in this space. >> Okay, now we're going to call out some of the data that really has jumped out to ETR in the latest survey, and some of the names that are getting the most queries from ETR clients, many of which are investor clients. So let's start by having a look at one of the most important and prominent work from home names, Zoom. Let's look at this. Erik is the ride over for Zoom? >> Ah, I've been saying it for a little bit of a time now actually. I do believe it is, and we'll get into it, but again, pointing out, great, Dave, the reason we're presenting today Splunk, Elastic and Zoom, they are the most viewed on the ETR+ platform. Trailing behind that only slightly is F5, I decided not to bring F5 to the table today 'cause we don't have a rating on the data set. So then I went one deep, one below that and it's pure. So the reason we're presenting these to you today is that these are the ones that our clients and our community are most interested in, which is hopefully going to gain interest to your viewers as well. So to get to Zoom, yeah, I call Zoom the pandemic bull market baby. This was really just one that had a meteoric ride. You look back, January in 2020, the stock was at $60 and 10 months later, it was like 580, that's in 10 months. That's cooled down a little bit into the mid-300s, and I believe that cooling down should continue, and the reason why is because we are seeing huge deceleration in our spending intentions. They're hitting all-time lows, it's really just a very ugly dataset. More importantly than the spending intentions, for the first time, we're seeing customer growth in our survey flatten. In the past, we knew that the deceleration of spend was happening, but meanwhile, their new customer growth was accelerating, so it was kind of hard to really make any call based on that. This is the first time we're seeing flattening customer growth trajectory, and that in tandem with just dominance from Microsoft in every sector they're involved in, I don't care if it's IP telephony, productivity apps or the core video conferencing, Microsoft is just dominating. So there's really just no way to ignore this anymore. The data and the commentary state that Zoom is facing some headwinds. >> Well, plus you've pointed out to me that a lot of your private conversations with buyers says that, "Hey, we're, we're using the freebie version of Zoom, and we're not paying them." And that combined with Teams, I mean, it's... I think, look, Zoom, they've got to figure out how to use their elevated market cap to transform and expand their TAM, but let's move on. Here's the data on Pure Storage and we've highlighted a number of times this company is showing elevated spending intentions. Pure announced it's earnings in May, IBM just announced storage, it was way down actually. So still, Pure, more positive, but I'll on that comment in a moment, but what does this data tell you, Erik? >> Yeah, right now we started seeing this data last survey in January, and that was the first time we really went positive on the data set itself, and it's just really continuing. So we're seeing the strongest year-over-year acceleration in the entire survey, which is a really good spot to be. Pure is also a leading position among its sector peers, and the other thing that was pretty interesting from the data set is among all storage players, Pure has the highest positive public Cloud correlation. So what we can do is we can see which respondents are accelerating their public Cloud spend and then cross-reference that with their storage spend and Pure is best positioned. So as you and I both know, digital transformation Cloud spending is increasing, you need to be aligned with that. And among all storage sector peers, Pure is best positioned in all of those, in spending intentions and adoptions and also public Cloud correlation. So yet again, to start another really strong dataset, and I have an anecdote about why this might be happening, because when I saw the data, I started asking in my interviews, what's going on here? And there was one particular person, he was a director of Cloud operations for a very large public tech company. Now, they have hybrid, but their data center is in colo, So they don't own and build their own physical building. He pointed out that during COVID, his company wanted to increase storage, but he couldn't get into his colo center due to COVID restrictions. They weren't allowed. You had 250,000 square feet, right, but you're only allowed to have six people in there. So it's pretty hard to get to your rack and get work done. He said he would buy storage, but then the colo would say, "Hey, you got to get it out of here. It's not even allowed to sit here. We don't want it in our facility." So he has all this pent up demand. In tandem with pent up demand, we have a refresh cycle. The SSD depreciation cycle is ending. SSDs are moving on and we're starting to see a new technology in that space, NVMe sorry, technology increasing in that space. So we have pent up demand and we have new technology and that's really leading to a refresh cycle, and this particular ITDM that I spoke to and many of his peers think this has a long tailwind that storage could be a good sector for some time to come. >> That's really interesting, thank you for that extra metadata. And I want to do a little deeper dive on storage. So here's a look at storage in the industry in context and some of the competitive. I mean, it's been a tough market for the reasons that we've highlighted, Cloud has been eating away that flash headroom. It used to be you'd buy storage to get more spindles and more performance and we're sort of forced to buy more, flash, gave more headroom, but it's interesting what you're saying about the depreciation cycle. So that's good news. So ETR combines, just for people's benefit here, combines primary and secondary storage into a single category. So you have companies like Pure and NetApp, which are really pure play primary storage companies, largely in the sector, along with Veeam, Cohesity and Rubrik, which are kind of secondary data or data protection. So my quick thoughts here that Pure is elevated and remains what I call the one-eyed man in the land of the blind, but that's positive tailwinds there, so that's good news. Rubrik is very elevated but down, it's big competitor, Cohesity is way off its highs, and I have to say to me, Veeam is like the Steady Eddy consistent player here. They just really continue to do well in the data protection business, and the highs are steady, the lows are steady. Dell is also notable, they've been struggling in storage. Their ISG business, which comprises servers and storage, it's been softer in COVID, and during even this new product rollout, so it's notable with this new mid range they have in particular, the uptick in Dell, this survey, because Dell is so large, a small uptick can be very good for Dell. HPE has a big announcement next month in storage, so that might improve based on a product cycle. Of course, the Nimble brand continues to do well, IBM, as I said, just announced a very soft quarter, down double digits again, and they're in a product cycle shift. And NetApp, it looks bad in the ETR data from a spending momentum standpoint, but their management team is transforming the company into a Cloud play, which Erik is why it was interesting that Pure has the greatest momentum in Cloud accounts, so that is sort of striking to me. I would have thought it would be NetApp, so that's something that we want to pay attention to, but I do like a lot of what NetApp is doing, and other than Pure, they're the only big kind of pure play in primary storage. So long-winded, intro there, Erik, but anything you'd add? >> No, actually I appreciate it as long-winded. I'm going to be honest with you, storage is not my best sector as far as a researcher and analyst goes, but I actually think that a lot of what you said is spot on. We do capture a lot of large organizations spend, we don't capture much mid and small, so I think when you're talking about these large, large players like NetApp not looking so good, all I would state is that we are capturing really big organization spending attention, so these are names that should be doing better to be quite honest, in those accounts, and at least according to our data, we're not seeing it in. It's longterm depression, as you can see, NetApp now has a negative spending velocity in this analysis. So, I can go dig around a little bit more, but right now the names that I'm hearing are Pure, Cohesity. I'm hearing a little bit about Hitachi trying to reinvent themselves in the space, but I'll take a wait-and-see approach on that one, but pure Cohesity are the ones I'm hearing a lot from our community. >> So storage is transforming to Cloud as a service. You've seen things like Apex in GreenLake from Dell and HPE and container storage. A little, so not really a lot of people paying attention to it, but Pure bought a company called Portworx which really specializes in container storage, and there's many startups there, they're trying to really change the way. David Flynn, has a startup in that space, he's the guy who started Fusion-io. So a lot of transformations happening here. Okay, I know it's been a long segment, we have to summarize, and let me go through a summary and then I'll give you the last word, Erik. So tech spending appears to be tracking US GDP at 6 to 7%. This talent shortage could be a blocker to accelerating IT deployments, so that's kind of good news actually for services companies. Digital transformation, it remains a priority, and that bodes, well, not only for services, but automation. UiPath went public this week, we profiled that extensively, that went public last Wednesday. Organizations that sit at the top face some tough decisions on how to allocate resources. They're running the business, growing the business, transforming the business, and we're seeing a bifurcation of spending and some residual effects on vendors, and that remains a theme that we're watching. Erik, your final thoughts. >> Yeah, I'm going to go back quickly to just the overall macro spending, 'cause there's one thing I think is interesting to point out and we're seeing a real acceleration among mid and small. So it seems like early on in the COVID recovery or COVID spending, it was the deep pockets that moved first, right? Fortune 500 knew they had to support remote work, they started spending first. Around that in the Fortune 500, we're only seeing about 5% spend, but when you get into mid and small organizations, that's creeping up to eight, nine. So I just think it's important to point out that they're playing catch up right now. I also would point out that this is heavily skewed to North America spending. We're seeing laggards in EMEA, they just don't seem to be spending as much. They're in a very different place in their recovery, and I do think that it's important to point that out. Lastly, I also want to mention, I know you do such a great job on following a lot of the disruptive vendors that you just pointed out, with Pure doing container storage, we also have another bi-annual survey that we do called Emerging Technology, and that's for the private names. That's going to be launching in May, for everyone out there who's interested in not only the disruptive vendors, but also private equity players. Keep an eye out for that. We do that twice a year and that's growing in its respondents as well. And then lastly, one comment, because you mentioned the UiPath IPO, it was really hard for us to sit on the sidelines and not put some sort of rating on their dataset, but ultimately, the data was muted, unfortunately, and when you're seeing this kind of hype into an IPO like we saw with Snowflake, the data was resoundingly strong. We had no choice, but to listen to what the data said for Snowflake, despite the hype. We didn't see that for UiPath and we wanted to, and I'm not making a large call there, but I do think it's interesting to juxtapose the two, that when snowflake was heading to its IPO, the data was resoundingly positive, and for UiPath, we just didn't see that. >> Thank you for that, and Erik, thanks for coming on today. It's really a pleasure to have you, and so really appreciate the collaboration and look forward to doing more of these. >> Yeah, we enjoy the partnership greatly, Dave. We're very happy to have you on the ETR family and looking forward to doing a lot, lot more with you in the future. >> Ditto. Okay, that's it for today. Remember, these episodes are all available as podcasts wherever you listen. All you have to do is search "Breaking Analysis" podcast, and please subscribe to the series. Check out ETR website it's etr.plus. We also publish a full report every week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. You can email me, david.vellante@siliconangle.com, you can DM me on Twitter @dvellante or comment on our LinkedIn posts. I could see you in Clubhouse. This is Dave Vellante for Erik Porter Bradley for the CUBE Insights powered by ETR. Have a great week, stay safe, be well and we'll see you next time. (bright music)