>> The Cube presents Dell Technologies World brought to you by Dell. >> Good evening, welcome back to the Cube's coverage of Dell Technologies World, live from the show floor in Las Vegas. Lisa Martin, Dave Vellante. We've been here two and a half days. We've unpacked a lot of announcements in the last couple days, and we're going to be doing a little bit more of that for our final segment. We've got a couple of guests joining us. Itzik Reich, the VP of the Technologist ISG at Dell and Magi Kapoor Director of Storage Product Management at Dell. Guys, welcome. >> Thank you for having us. >> So great to be back in person. I'm sure great for all of you to see customers and partners and your team that you probably haven't seen in quite a while. But Itzik we want to, we want to start with you VP of the Technologists. That sounds like a, like you need to wear a cape or something. >> Right? Yeah. I wish I do sometimes >> Talk about that role and what you do. >> Right, so our role, we have an outbound part and an inbound part. From an outbound perspective, our role is to ensure that our customers are knowing where we going from a technology perspective. And we do it via conferences or customer calls or via blogs, and think of that nature. But as important, we also have an inbound role to ensure that our employees are knowing where we're going. You can imagine they're a very large company. Not every engineer or any other role knows exactly what we are doing in that space, especially around innovation. So we also ensure that they understand it internally about where we going into that nature. And as a side role, I also have a side job which is to be responsible for our container strategy which has started couple of years ago which I'm sure we're going to talk about today. >> Yeah, that's-- >> Got a side gig. My goodness. >> That's right. >> Maggie, lots of announcements in the last couple of days. Great attendance here. Seven to 8,000 people. Dell's coming off its best year ever, north of 100 billion in revenue and FY 22, 17% year on year growth. What are some of the things that excite you about the strategic direction that Dell is going in with its partners, with the hyperscalers storage bringing it to the hyperscalers? >> Yeah. No lots of great announcements. It's been an exciting week. Like you said, it's been great to be back in person, have these face to face meetings and, you know, see the customers, have presentations in person. Like I feel like we haven't done that in forever. So it's felt really, really great. And announcements, it's been incredible. Like the two keynotes that we had on Monday and Tuesday were both incredible. And so I'd like to talk about a couple of key ones, you know, so just to let you know, I'm a director of product management and I'm responsible for a bunch of pan-ISG initiatives, DevOps and our container strategy being one of those items. And so, you know, we're at this cusp where there are, you know, customers that are on this journey of, you know, developers coming up to speed with multicloud being one of the key areas. We've heard that a lot this week, right? And what I loved about Chuck's keynote when he talked about, you know, a multicloud by default and how we're working to change that to be multicloud for design by design, right? And so what we mean by that is, and DevOps plays a very key role there, right? In the last few years developers have had this opportunity to pick different multi from different multi clouds, right? And develop the applications wherever they find the right tool sets. But that's creating havoc with IT operations because IT has worked in it in different ways, right? So what we're trying to do with DevOps is really bridge the gap between the developers and the IT ops and make it more frictionless. And project Alpine is one of the key ones to make that, you know, to bring that bridge together. Really bring that operational consistency across on-prem and the public clouds and colo facilities and Edge and everything that we've talked about. So project Alpine is really key to the success of DevOps that we're driving across. And then the other thing that I would like to call out in terms of announce and Chuck brought that up on Monday was our focus on developers. And we have a portal called developer.dell.com which we announced and launched in January of this year. Right? It's think of that as our one stop shop for all of our APIs. You heard from Caitlin, you heard from a lot of our leaders that we have been on this journey of having a API first approach to everything we're doing be it products, be it features, functionality. And so the developer portal is the place where we're putting all of our ISG APIs and not just having a one stop shop but standardizing on APIs, which is really key. >> We just spoke to Shannon Champion and Gemma from Salesforce. And we talked about how we entered last decade for visioning lungs. And now we're programming infrastructure. So really interested in your container strategy, your DevOps strategy. How did it start? How was it evolving? Where are you in the spectrum? You know, where are customers in that maturity? Let's dig in >> 2015, I believe was the year when DockerCon their CTO went on stage and they explained their customer that they shouldn't care about storage. They should design their applications running in containers in the 12 factor way, designed to fail, storage doesn't matter. And I remember scratching my head because I was hearing this one before. If there's one thing that I've learned both as a customer and later on as an employee of a storage company at the time, is that customers care about data and they care a lot about their data. Especially if it's not available. It's a bad day for the customer and possibly a very bad day for me as well. And so we actually, at the time, work with a startup called Cluster HQ to offer persistent volumes for Kubernetes. That startup eventually went down of business. But Google took over the some part of the intellectual property and came with an API called CSI. Which does not stand for your famous TV show. It's actually an acronym for container storage interface. And the CSI role in life is to be able to provide persistent volume from a storage array to Kubernetes. So we start working with Google, just like many other vendors in order to ensure that our stands outs are part of the CSI stand out. And we start to providing CSI interfaces for our storage arrays. And that's how all of these things started. We started to get more and more customers telling us I'm going all in with Kubernetes and I need you to support me in that journey. But what we've also learned is that Kubernetes similarly in a way to the open stock days is very fragmented. There are many distributions that are running on the top of Kubernetes. So seed side itself is not just the end of it. Many customer wants day to be working with VMware (indistinct) with zoo or with red OpenShift or with Rancher. So we need to do different adjustments for each one of these distributions in order to ensure that we are meeting the customer where they are today but also in the future as well. >> Yeah, and Kubernetes back in 2015 was, you know, pretty immature. We were focused on simplicity. You had Mesos doing, you know, more sophisticated things, you know, cluster HQ, obvious. And now you see Kubernetes moving into that realm tackling all those, a lot of those problems. So where does storage fit into that resilient resiliency equation? >> Yeah, so, you know, I think storages are key. What we're hearing a lot from customers is they have infrastructure in place already and they want to take advantage of cloud native and modernizing their applications whether they're the legacy applications or as they're building new applications. So how do really take advantage of the infrastructure that they have invested in? And they love, and they need. I mean, the reason why our customers love our products is because of the enterprise and the data management capabilities that we provide, right? Be it PowerMax for our gold standards on SRDF replication, for instance, they want to make sure that they leverage all of that as they are containerizing their applications. So the piece that Itzik talked about with the CSI plugins, that gives customers the opportunity to take advantage of the infrastructure that's already in place, take advantage of all the enterprise capabilities that it provides but yet take advantage of cloudifying, if I can say, the applications that they're doing, right? And then on top of that we also have what we call our CSM modules which is the container storage modules which is so, you know, going back again, we, CSI industry stack spec standards, you know, customers started to use it. And what we heard from our customers was, this is great but it has very minimum capabilities, right? Very basic ones. And we love your enterprise products. We want enterprise capabilities with it. So we've been working with CNCF very closely on, you know, working on contributions. But what we have realized is that they're, the community is still far from delivering some of these enterprise capabilities. So we came up with container storage modules which is an extension of CSI modules but to add those enterprise capabilities, you know, be it observability, be it replication, authorization, resiliency. These are the things that customers wanted to use enterprise storage when it comes to containers. And that's what we've been delivering on with our container storage modules. I do want to call out that all of our CSM modules just like CSI are all open source. That's what developers want. They don't want it closed source. And so we're listening to them and we're creating all of this in open source waiting, you know, and wanting them to contribute to the court. So it's not just us doing, you know and writing what we want but we also want the community to contribute. >> You're committing resources there, publishing them, it's all open source? >> Exactly. >> That's the contribution. >> And working with CNCF to see if they can be standardized across the board not just for Dell customers. >> Is that a project going, is that your ideal? It that becomes a project within CNCF or is it? >> That's our goal. Yes. We're definitely working and influencing. We'll see how it goes. >> More committers. Just keep throwing committers at it. >> Support these day is done via slack channel. So if we're changing the way that we run interacting with our customers that are now the developers themselves via slack channel. You don't need to call 100, 800 Dell to get a support case. >> So I'm interested in, you mentioned project Alpine, and it was very interesting to me to see that. You know, you guys talk about multicloud. I try to take it to another level. I call it super cloud and that's this abstraction layer. You know, some people laugh at that, but it has meaning. Multi-cloud is going to multivendor by default. And my premise is data ultimately is going to stay where it belongs in place. And then this mesh evolves, not my word, Jamoc Degani kind of invented. And there needs to be standards to be able to share data and govern that data. And it's wide open now. There are no standards there. And I think open sources has an opportunity as opposed to a defacto standard that would emerge. It seems to be real white space there. I think a company like Dell could provide that self-service infrastructure to those data points on the mesh and standards or software that governs that in a computational way. Is that something that's, you know, that super cloud idea is a reality from a technologist perspective? >> I think it is. So for example, Katie Gordon, which I believe you interviewed earlier this week, was demonstrating the Kubernetes data mobility aspect, which is another project. That's exactly power part of the its rational, the rationale of customers being able to move some of their Kubernetes workloads to the cloud and back and between different clouds. Why we doing it? Because customers wants to have the ability to move between different cloud providers using a common API that will be able to orchestrate all of those things with a self-service that may be offered via the apex console itself. So it's all around enabling developers and meeting them where they are today and also meeting them in tomorrow's world where they actually may have changed their mind to do those things. So, yes, we are working on all of those different aspects. >> Dell meeting the developers where they are. Guys thank you so much for joining David and me and unpacking that. We appreciate your insights and your time. >> Thank you so much for having us. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. Speaking of unpacking, Lisa. We're unpacking Dell tech world. >> They're packing up around us. Exactly. We better go. We want to thank you for watching The Cube's two and a half days of live coverage of Dell Technologies world. Dave it's been great to co-host with you, be back in person. >> Thank you Lisa. It was really a pleasure. >> Of course. My pleasure too. >> Let's do more of this. >> Let's do it! >> All right. >> We want to thank you again for watching. You can catch all of this on replay on thecube.net. We look forward to seeing you next time. (soft music)

welcome back to los angeles lisa martin here with dave nicholson day three of the cube's coverage of kubecon cloud native con north america 2020 we've been having some great comp live conversations in the last three days with actual guests on set we're very pleased to welcome to for the first time to our program shimon ben david the cto of weka welcome hey nice to be here nice to be here great to be at an in-person event isn't it no it's awesome they've done a great job i think you're green you're green like we're green fully green which is fantastic actually purple and hearts wake up yeah good to know green means you're shaking hands and maybe the occasional hug so talk to us about weka what's going on we'll kind of dig into what you guys are doing with kubernetes but give us that overview of what's going on at weka io okay so weka has been around for several years already uh we actually jade our product of 2016 so it's been out there uh actually eight of the fortune 50 are using weka um for those of you that don't know weka by the way we're a fully software defined parallel file system cloud native i know it's a mouthful and it's buzzword compliant but we actually baked all of that into the product from day one because we did other storage companies in the past and we actually wanted to take the best of all worlds and put that into one storage that is is not another me too it's not another compromise so we built the the environment we built weka to actually accommodate for upcoming technologies so we identified also that cloud technology is upcoming network actually exploded in a good way one gig 10 gig 100 gig 200 gig came out so we knew that that's going to be a trend and also cloud we saw cloud being utilized more and more and we kind of like bet that being able to be a parallel file system for the cloud would be amazing and it does how are you not on me too tell me tell us that when you're talking with customers what are the like the top three things that really differentiate weka speed scale and simplicity speed skills i like how fast you said that like quicker so speed sorry you see a lot of file system a lot of storage environments that are very um throughput oriented so speed how many gigabytes can you do to be honest a lot of storage environments are saying we can do that in that many gigabytes when we designed weka actually we wanted to provide an environment that would actually be faster than your local nvme on your local server because that's what we see are actually customers using for performance they're copying the data for their local to their local nvmes and process it we created an environment that is actually throughput oriented iops oriented latency sensitive and metadata performance so it's kind of like the best of all worlds and it's just not just a claim we actually showed it in many benchmarks uh top 500s supercomputing centers can talk for hours about performance but that's performance um scalability we actually are able to scale uh and we did show that we scaled to multiple petabytes we actually uh took some projects from scale-out nas appliances that actually got to their limit of their scale out and we we just continued from there double digit triple digits petabytes upcoming um and also scale is also how many clients can you service at once so it's not only how much capacity but also how many clients can you can you work with concurrently and simplicity all of that we from the initial design points were let's make something that is usable by users and not like so my mother can really use it right and so we have a very simple intuitive user interface but it's also api driven so you can automate around it so simplicity speed and scale love it so shimon it's interesting you said that your company was founded in 2016 in that in that time period because uh before jade ga ga 2016. um but but in those in in those surrounding years uh there were a lot of companies that were coming out at sort of the tail end of the legacy storage world yeah trying to just cannibalize that business you came out looking into the future where are we in that future now because you could argue that you guys maybe started a little early you could have taken a couple of years off and waited for uh for for the wave in the world of containerization as an example to come through but this is really this is like your time to shine isn't it exactly and being fully software defined we can always um adapt and we're always adapting so we bet on new technologies networking flash environments and these keep just keep on going and improving right when we went out we were like in 10 gig environments with ssds but we already knew that we're going to go to 100 and we also designed already for nvmes so kind like hardware constantly improved uh cpus for example the new intel cpus the new amd cpus we just accommodated for them because being software defined means that we actually bypass most of their inner workings and do things ourselves so that's awesome and then the cloud environment is growing massively and containers we see containers now in everyday uh use cases where initially it was maybe vms maybe bare metal but now everything is containerized and we're actually starting to see more and more kubernetes orchestrated environment uh coming out as well i still have a feeling that this is still a bit of dev property hey i'm a developer i'm a devops engineer i'm going to do it uh and it's there is i actually saw a lot of exciting things here um taking it to the next level to the it environment so um that's where we will show benefit as well so talk about how kubernetes users are are working with weka what is what superpower does that give them so um i think if you look at the current storage solutions that you have for kubernetes um they're interesting but they're more of like the let's take what we have today and plug it in right um so what kind of has a csi uh plug-in so it's easy to integrate and work with but also when you look at it um block is still being used in in kubernetes environments that i'm familiar with block was still being used for high performance so i i used uh pvs and pvcs to manage my pods uh claims and then but then i mounted them as read write once right because i couldn't share them then if a pod failed i had to reclaim the pvc and connect it to multiple environments because i wanted block storage because it's fast and then nfs environments was were used as read write many uh to be a shared environment but low performance so by being able to say hey we now have an environment that is fully covered kubernetes integrated and it provides all the performance aspects that you need you don't need to choose just run your fleet of pods your cluster of pods read write many you don't need to to manage old reclamations just to create new pods you get the best of all words ease of use and also uh the performance additionally because there's always more right we now see more and more uh cloud environments right so weka also has the ability and i didn't focus on that but it's it's really uh amazing it has the ability to move data around between different environments so imagine and we see that imagine on-prem environments that are now using weka you're in the terabytes or petabyte scale obviously you can copy and rsync and rclone right but nobody really does it because it doesn't work for these capacities so weka has the ability to say hey i can move data around between different environments so create more copies or simply burst so we see customers that are working on-prem throwing data to the cloud we see customers working on the cloud and and then we actually now see customers starting to bridge the gap because cloud bursting is again is a very nice buzzword we see some customers exploring it we don't really see customers doing it at the moment but the customers that are exploring it are exploring uh throwing the compute out to the cloud using the kubernetes cluster and throwing the data to the cloud using the weka cluster so there's and and one last thing because that's another interesting use case weka can be run converged on the same kubernetes cluster so there is no need to have even it's so in essence it's a zero footprint storage you don't need to even add more servers so i don't need to buy a box and connect my cluster to that box i just run it on the same servers and if i want more compute nodes i add more nodes and i'll add more storage by doing that so it's that simple so i was just looking at the website and see that waka was just this was just announced last week a visionary in the gartner mq for what's the mq4 distributed file systems and object storage talk to me talk talk to us about that what does that distinction mean for the company and how does the voice of the customer validate that great so actually this is interesting this is a culmination of a lot of hard work that all of the team did writing the product and all of the customers by adopting the product because it was in order to get to that i know we don't know if anybody is familiar with the criteria but you need to have a large footprint a distinguished footprint worldwide so we worked hard on getting that and we see that and we see that in multiple markets by the way financials we see a massive amounts of aiml projects containerized kubernetes orchestrated so getting to that was a huge achievement you could see other storage devices not being there because not not every storage appliance is is a parallel file system usually i think uh when you look at parallel file systems you you you attribute complexity and i need an army of people to manage it and to tweak it so that's again one of the things that we did and that's why we really think that we're a cool vendor in that magikarp magic quarter right because you it's that simple to manage uh you don't have any uh find you you cannot you don't need to find unity in like a bazillion different ways just install it we work it works you map it to your containers simple so we're here at kubecon a lot of talk about cloud native a lot of projects a lot of integration a lot of community development you've described installing weka into a kubernetes cluster where you know are there are there integrations that are being worked on what are the is there connective tissue between essentially this parallel file system that's spanning you say you have five nodes you have weka running on those five nodes you have a kubernetes cluster spanning those five nodes um what kinds of things are happening in the community maybe that you're supporting or that you're participating in to connect those together so right now you you don't uh we only have the csi plugin we didn't invest in in anything more actually one of the reasons that i'm here is to get to know the community a bit more and to get more involved and we're definitely looking into how more can we help customers utilize kubernetes and and enjoy the worker storage uh do we need to do some sort of integration i'm actually exploring that and i think you'll see some well so we got interesting so we got you at a good time now exactly yeah because you can say with with it with an api approach um you have the you have the connectivity and you're providing this storage layer that provides all the attributes that you described but you are here live living proof green wristband and all showing that the future will be even more interesting voting on the future yeah and and seeing how we can help the community and what can we do together and actually i'm really impressed by the the conference it's been amazing we've been talking about that all week being impressed with the fact that there's we've been hearing between 2 700 and 3 100 people here which is amazing in person of course there's many more that are participating virtually but they've done a great job of these green wristbands by the way we've talked about these a minute ago um this you have a red yellow or green option to to tell others are you comfortable with contact handshakes hugs etc i love that the fact that i am i'm sandwiched by two grains but they've done a great job of making this safe and i hope that this is a message this is a big community um the cncf has 138 000 contributors i hope this is a message that shows that you can do these events we can get together in person again because there's nothing like the hallway track you can't replicate that on video exactly grabbing people in the hallway in the hotel in the lobby talking about their problems seeing what they need what we do it's amazing right so so give us a little bit in our last few minutes here about the go to market what is the the gtm strategy for weka so that's an interesting question so being fully software defined when we started we we thought do we do another me too another storage appliance even though we're storage defined could we just go to market with our own boxes and we actually uh decided to go differently because our market was actually the storage vendors sorry the server vendors we actually decided to go and enable other bare metal environments manufacturers to now create storage solutions so we now have a great partnership with hpe with supermicro with hitachi uh and and more as well with aws because again being software defined we we can run on the cloud we do have massive projects on the clouds some of the we're all familiar with some but i can't mention um so and we we chose that as our go to market because we we are fully software defined we don't need any specific hardware for we just need a server with nvmes or an instance with nvmes and that's it there's no usually when i talk about what we need is as a product i also talk about the list of what we don't need is longer we don't need j bar j buffs servers ups we don't need all of that raid arrays we just need the servers so a lot of the server vendors actually identify that and then when we approach them and say hey this is what we can do on your bare metal on your environment is that valuable of course so so that's mostly our go to market another thing is that we chose to to focus on the markets that we're going after we're not another me too we're not another storage for your home directories even though obviously we are in some cases uh by customers but we're the storage where if you could shrink your wall clock time of your pipeline from two weeks to four hours and we did that's like 84 times faster if you could do that how valuable is that that's what we do that we see that more and more in modern enterprises so when we started doing that people were saying hey so your go to market is only hpc uh no all if you look at ai email life science um financials and the list goes on right modern environments are now being what hpc was a few years ago so there's massive amounts of data so our go to market is to be very targeted toward uh these markets and then we can say that they also uh push us to to other sides of the hey i have a worker so i might put my vmware on it i might put my i'll do my distributed compilation on this it's it's growing organically so that's fun to see awesome tremendous amount of growth i love that you talked about it very clearly simplicity speed and scale i think you did a great job of articulating why waka is not a me too last question are there any upcoming webinars or events or announcements that that folks can go to learn more about weka uh great question um i didn't come with my marketing hat but we we constantly have events and uh we usually what we usually do we we talk about the markets that we go after so for example a while ago we were in bioit so we published some uh life science articles um i need to see what's in the pipeline and definitely share it with you well i know you guys are going to be at re invent we do so hopefully we'll see you re-invent we're very in super computing as well if you'll be there fantastic i see that on your website there um i don't think we're there but we will see you we're a strong believer of of these conferences of these communities of being on the ground talking with people obviously if you can do it we'll do it with zoom but this is prices yeah it is there's nothing like it shimon it's been great to have you on the program thank you so much for giving us an update on weka sharing what you guys are doing how you're helping kubernetes users and what differentiates the technology we appreciate all your insights and your energy too no it's not me it's the product ah i love it for dave nicholson i'm lisa martin coming to you live from los angeles this is kubecon cloudnativecon north america 21 coverage on the cube wrapping up three days of wall-to-wall coverage we thank you for watching we hope you stay well

hey welcome back to los angeles lisa martin here with the cube we are live at kubecon and cloudnativecon 21. it's been great to be here we've been broadcasting the last couple of days about 2 700 people joining us in person great buzz great energy i've got two guests here next joining me remotely please welcome it's reich the vp technologist at dell emc anivis iyer senior principal product manager at dell technologies gentlemen welcome to the program thanks for having us lisa thank you lisa and we're pleased that you're joining us today it's like let's go ahead and start with you let's talk we've seen a lot of of uptick and kubernetes it's been picking up a lot what are some of the things that you're seeing through your lens right that's a great question lisa so really we need to take a step back bobby into 2019 we just mentioned in-person conferences so back then we started to see a slow adoption of customers that are starting to play with kubernetes in their test environment maybe running some pocs but then the pandemic happened obviously and we started to see huge explosion in terms of adoption and accelerating the digital based projects for our customers so they're really starting to pick up kubernetes and use it heavily in their production and of course in addition to their test and dev environments as well and because of that adoption they started to think about other scenarios and other considerations that are relevant for their production environment which is based upon kubernetes things like disaster recovery availability all of those things that typically you don't worry about when you just run them in a small desk or a poc environment but are super critical for our customers and you know it's the largest storage company in the world we have the smallest company customers in the world but also the largest and the most demanding one it's a really huge adoption that needs to basically accelerate all of those aspects that belong to an enterprise environment that happens to run on kubernetes itself if ask do you see something similar yeah absolutely i agree with itzik and actually one of the brief stories actually i start out with is because a few years ago actually several years ago when i was taking a cab in new york remember the point-of-sale terminal was not working so you know you took my credit card just like use the magnetic spike so not having the technology access was like an inconvenience but it still could transact but now today's age when you look at digital transform trans digitally transformed companies starting with all these web companies like you know you've got like uber lyft and things like that but then you also have mainstream companies where the entire business is now taking over digital hence all these applications are the ones that are powering the entire business if you will and not having these applications available or these apps available uh will basically the business is gonna lose money and and that's and that's what is and the pandemic has only accelerated digital transformation right because everyone working from home and and also the customers are also remote so now you have the entire operation is just software is running the business pretty much every company is a technology company and then you have you know and then all these applications they are modernized so they are modernized in the way that they're not built to the traditional architectures they're now using you know microservices devops and agile these are three major aspects that kind of you know drove the new application modernized applications to build more complex applications and kubernetes has emerged as the sole platform that can you know kind of serve the underlying platform between all of these aspects and hence we see that you know kubernetes adoption has taken off a lot because pretty much every organization is running several projects within the enterprise including app modernization you know transformation of any kind of secondary kind of use cases iot you know the whole digital transformation story is kind of running on kubernetes and as sick was pointing out so now kubernetes are simmered as the key infrastructure as a service layer if you will or above the infrastructure service and it needs to consume storage and it needs to have you know all these traditional capabilities that were for uh for applications right i mean like uh disaster recovery uh having enterprise grade uh availability aspects like you know for this uh data protection things like that and that's sort of is and the enterprise capabilities are relatively i would say uh accelerating a lot earlier kubernetes was more on the non-enterprise aspects of the journey now we are seeing a lot more enterprise growth are you seeing your conversations within organizations elevate up the chain where kubernetes is concerned is this a c-level conversation or the understanding that from a competitive differentiation perspective from a modernization perspective it's the direction they need to go in yeah absolutely and for them you know vmware ran itself a couple of months ago about the reasons that are important for customers to run containers in production there were like ten tens of them but the number one reason is to accelerate software adoption and to basically write codes faster that's like the number one reason it's not about the technology itself you know technology is just an enabler and the enabler is to write the code as quickly as you could deploy it in test and dev quickly as you could run some qa cycles on it and release release release the code that's at the end of the day that's the main difference between the old way of the waterfall approach to the new way of agile approach which eventually got translated into the infrastructure layer itself it needs to accommodate those changes if you will well releasing code faster is going to enable organizations presumably in any industry to be able to develop and release products and services faster to the demanding consumer market i imagine that's absolutely correct we've all got spoiled by the smartphone industry we'll just expect a new version to be just deployed to your device almost every day now it's exactly the same it is we i think we carry that i think it's i think it's impossible not to carry that consumer expectation from our consumer life into our business life and we just expect that things are going to work that way because in our consumer lives they do i want to ask you guys about is that this question is directly for you talk to me about csi what is it besides a tv show i know you have a great answer for this and many spin-offs by the way right not just a single one csi right so let's take a step back into 2015. docker rebecca dockercon they sit on the stage and during the keynote and they explain that you should write your code in the 12 factor way resiliency should be built in into the containers themselves and you shouldn't care about storage persistency now we're in the storage industry for the best part of my life right now and storage persistence is important if a customer lose data that's a very bad day for the customer and possibly a very bad day for me as well so it's all about the data nothing else really matters the data itself is the goal and so there was no data persistency back then you go here and we actually work with the startup that did just storage consistency for containers basically meaning the ability to provision a volume from storage array into kubernetes and kubernetes will know about this that style tab went busted but the need still existed and so into that need google came and they come up with this api called container storage interface short for csi that does exactly that it allows kubernetes administrator of the kubernetes api to consume storage from the underlying storage array so provision volumes map mapping volumes taking a snapshot of the volume and mapping those from those very basic capabilities now those capabilities are very basic and we now have customers that are telling us i need far more than just the ability to provision a volume for my kubernetes environments i need this volume to be protected i need this volume to be replicated and it is volume to be protected into a backup device all of those things that csi doesn't know to do today no we didn't know to do in the near future so what we did is we said right we're not going to reinvent the wheel that's csi we're not just going to repeat csi all over again we're going to extend csi with open source tools that will enable our customers to do all of those things that are just mentioned before so csm is container storage modules which is what we announced today and it's very high level it provides you i provided the capabilities to do the following the first one is the observability module so if you're monitoring your open source environments you are very very likely to use open source tools like graphing and commit use so we have this plugin that allows you to monitor your storage array with gofundme and prometus and really uh becomes the liaison point between the storage admin the kubernetes admin they can connect both to the console and each really understand the the entity that is not aware of i call it the two-way mirror base second module is the resiliency module kubernetes is very infant in terms of understanding storage it doesn't understand storage failure conditions and so our resiliency module run as the k3s is like a minimum version of kubernetes if you will which keeps monitoring both the storage array and the host and in case of a storage arrow it knows to act upon it and do things like volume unmapping and map those volumes to other surviving servers in the product center etc the other module is the replication module so back into 2015 uh customers are basically telling us today i want to use kubernetes but i also want to replicate the data to either a passive site or an active site and in case of a failure if my primary site goes down i want to fail over this kubernetes volumes and data to a remote site so literally within a click of a button you can fail over your kubernetes environment from site a to site b using the underlying storage array capabilities replication etc etc and the other module that we've also announced is the volume group snapshots so instead of just taking a single volume which is what csr is all about you can actually take multiple volume that belong to multiple micro services that at the end of the day running within those containers in order to really back up a service and not just the micro service itself so all of these modules and future modules that will come in the future as well belong to csm and csm for us is just the beginning it's everything that our most most the demanding customers want us to provide today and they are not willing to wait for csi to catch up base got it so we you've done a great job of explaining what csi is what it isn't what csm is and all the great things that were announced today let's talk about the data protection the security angle we've seen so much change in the security the threat landscape in the last 18 months we've seen ransomware become a household word the proliferation of ddos attacks and of course there's this scattered workforce that is still scattered talk to me about why data protection for kubernetes and what are some of the unique needs that that presents uh sure uh thanks lisa so um so when you look at the kubernetes landscape it originally started out with mostly the front-end aspects multi like you know like web tier type applications but as the landscape has evolved now we are seeing actually in the kubernetes community also there has been newer concepts like stateful sets for example which allows you to have more persistent type uh or basically they you know the application that have retained state and data uh in the kubernetes cluster and we are seeing a huge proliferation and that is also increasing you know across the board on uh for example everything from experimentation or like any kind of user experience kind of data the understanding about sessions you know what users like what they don't like to all critical operational aspects to transactional elements too all of them being brought into the kubernetes we are seeing organizations in various stages of the journey and then add on to the additional uh capabilities on the storage side as she was mentioning about csi and csm and are basically the ways for the kubernetes layer to consume these storage services so when you're building these modern applications uh the state is now preserved as part of the kubernetes and actually recently we had a case with one of the customers we've had and uh so they did not have data protection as part of their kubernetes and uh and you know and we are seeing this in several organizations where you have an it ops kind of a team and there is a devops team there's a two-speed it concept so devops teams a lot of time they do not take into consideration a lot of these uh you know disaster recovery and uh you know the data protection aspects as part of the design and then one of the customers just what happened and they lost you know data because the you know their systems crashed and it was not through ransomware luckily but it was through uh you know a general logical you know failure of hardware things like that and so they could not recover that so they had to go back and they had to like rest all the whole thing so they started investing in saying oh we need a ways to protect the data so that i can recover so data is all about recovery it's about you know making sure you can record to a certain point in time and also recovering in the minimal amount of time and the challenges that kubernetes adds on top of traditional application that you know the entire application definition in kubernetes is split across multiple of these smaller metadata aspects like the application itself will have labels they will have uh you know they'll have secrets they'll have config maps they'll have custom resource definitions they have all this additional metadata that make up the entire application not just the data so you need to have all of that captured in context in a cloud native fashion if you if you're trying to protect that kubernetes environment and that's kind of a little bit of a unique challenge and then from a security aspect that you alluded to from kubernetes yes there are been you know multiple security challenges that we see although we don't directly work on the front end on the uh on the prevention side but on the cure side data protection is an important aspect right i mean if you look at the open source community there is so much open source today and how do you know that the open source and the api that you're consuming is is coming from a valid source you need so there is all kinds of like different security solutions that kubernetes community offers to validate making sure the source code is good the apis are authenticated and you know authorized things like that so there is a lot of these but even despite that you know there is always ability for some attacks to sneak in and that's where data protection is providing that cure so in case something does happen and you have a ransomware attack i have a cyber security vault or i have data stored in a secure fashion in a panic room if you will that i can so my business like i was alluding to my earlier example the business depends on that data and that operational transactional customer data and you need to recover that and you need to store it in a secure place and that's sort of the whole aspect of that it's got to be recoverable that's the whole point guys thank you so much for joining me talking to me about what you're seeing from a kubernetes adoption acceleration perspective thank you for helping me learn a new definition of csi not a show or a spin-off and talk to us about what csm is and the things that you are the modules that you're announcing today we appreciate your candor and your time thank you lisa thanks for having us my pleasure for my guests i'm lisa martin coming to you live from los angeles at kubecon cloudbanditcon21 be right back dave nicholson will rejoin me with our next guest stay tuned you

>> Welcome everybody to this cube conversation. My name is Dave Vellante and we're joined today by Richard Goodwin, who's the group director of IT at Ultraleap and Avishek Kumar, who manages Dell's Power Store, product line, he directs that product line along with several other lines for the company. Gentlemen, welcome to the cube. >> (Avishek) Hi Dave. >> (Richard) Hi >> (Dave) So Richard, Ultraleap, very cool company tracks hand movements, and so forth. Tell us about the company and the technology I'm really interested in how it's used. >> Yeah, we've had many product lines, obviously. We're very innovative, and the organization was spun up from a PhD, a number of PhD students who were the co-founders for Ultraleap, and initially with mid-air haptics, as you, as many people may have seen, but also hand tracking, mid-air touch, sense and feel. So, yeah, it's, it's, it's quite impressive what we have produced and the number of sectors and markets that we were in. And obviously to, to push us to where we are, we have relied upon lots of the Dao technology, both software and hardware. >> (Dave) And what's your role at the company? >> I'm the group IT director, I'm responsible for the IT and business platforms, all infrastructure, network, hardware, software, and also the transition of those platforms to ensure that we're scalable. And we are able to develop our software and hardware as rapidly as possible. >> (Dave) Awesome. Yeah, a lot of data behind that too I bet. Okay Avishek, you direct a number of products at Dell across the portfolio, Unity, Extreme IO, the SC series, and of course power vault. It's quite the portfolio that you look after. So let's get into the case study, if we can, a bit, Richard, maybe you could paint a picture of, of your environment, some of the key applications that you're supporting and maybe what your infrastructure looks like. Give us a high level view. >> Sure. So, pre Power Store, we had quite a disparate architecture, so a fairly significant split and siding on the side of the cloud, not as hybrid as we would like, and not, not as much as on-prem, as we would have liked, and hey, but that's changed quite significantly. So we now have a number of servers and storage and storage arrays that we have on, on-premise, and then we host ourselves. So we are moving quite rapidly, you know as a startup and then moving to a scale-up, we needed that, that scalability and that versatility, and also the whole OPEX versus CAPEX, and also not being driven by lots of SaaS products and architecture and infrastructure, where we needed to be in control because of our development cycles and our products, product development. >> (Dave) So wait, Okay, So, so, too much cloud. I'm hearing you wanted a little bit a dose of on-prem, explain that a little bit more, the cloud wasn't doing it for you in terms of your development cycle, your control. Can you double click on that? >> Yeah. Some of the, some of the control and you know, there's always a balance because there's certain elements of our development cycles and our engineering, software engineering, where we need a very high parallelism for some of the work that we're doing, which then, you know, the CAPEX investment makes things very, very challenging, not commercially the right thing to do. However, there are some of our information, some of IP, some of the secure things that we do, we also do not want upgrades as an example, or any advantages or certain types of server and spec that we need to be quite and unique and that needs to be within our control. >> (Dave) Got it, Okay. Thank you for that. Avishek, we're going to talk about Power Store today. So set it up, please, tell us about Power Store, what it is, you know, why it's important to this conversation. >> Sure. So Power Store is a product that we launched may of 2020, roughly a little bit more than a year now. And it's a brand new architecture that Dell technologies released. And at the end of the day, I'll talk about a few unique aspects of the product, but at the end of the day, where we start with, it's a storage platform, right? So where we see similar to what Richard is saying here, in terms of being able to consolidate the customer's environment, whether it is blog, file, WeVaults, physical, virtual environments, and, and it's, as I said, it's a brand new architecture where we leveraged pieces of existing products, where it made sense, we are using all the latest and greatest technologies delivering the best performance based data reduction. And where we see a lot of traction is the options that it brings to the table for our customers in terms of flexibility, whether they want to add capacity, compute, whether in fact, we have apps on the deployment model where customers can consolidate their compute as well on the static storage platform with needed. So a lot of innovation from a platform perspective itself, and it's not just about the platform itself, but what comes along with it, right? So we refer to it as an ecosystem, part of it, where we work with Ansible playbooks, CSI plugin, you name it, right. And it's the storage platform by itself, doesn't stand by itself in a customer's environment, there are other aspects of the infrastructure that it needs to integrate with as well. Right? So if they are using Ansible playbooks, we want to make sure the integration is there. >> (Dave) Got it. >> And last, but perhaps not the least is the intelligence built into the platform, right? So as we are building these capabilities into the product, there is intelligence built into the product, as well as outside the product where things like Cloud IQ, things like technologies built into power suit itself makes it that much easier for the customers to manage the infrastructure and go from there. >> (Dave) Thank you for that, So, Richard, what was the workload? So it actually, you started with the sort of a Greenfield on-prem. If I understand it correctly, what was the workload that you were sort of building around or workloads? >> So, we had a, a number of different applications. Some of which we cannot really talk about too much, but we had, we had a VxRail, we had a a smaller doubt array and we have lots of what we class as runners, Kubernetes cluster that we run and quite a few different VMs that run on our, on-prem server infrastructure and storage arrays and the issues that we began to hit because of the high IO, from some of our workloads, that we were hitting very high latency, which rapidly stopped, began to cause us issues, especially with some of our software engineering teams. And that is when we embarked upon a competitive RFP for Dell Power Store, Dell were already engaged from an end-user compute where they'd been selected as the end-user compute provider from a previous competitive RFP. And then we engaged them regarding the storage issue that we had and we engaged the, our account lead and count exec, and a number of solution architects were working with us to ensure that we have the optimal solution. Dell were selected over the competitors because of many reasons, you know, the new technology, the de-duplication, the compression, the data, overall data reduction, and the guarantee that also came, came with that, the four-to-one data reduction guarantee, which was significant to us because of their amounts of data that we hold. And we have, you know, as I've mentioned, we're pulling further, further data of ours back into our hosted environments, which will end up on the Power Store, especially with the de-duplication that we're now getting. We've actually hit nine-to-one, which is significant. We were expecting four-to-one, maybe five-to-one with some of the data types. And what was excellent that we were that confident that they did not even review our data types prior, and they were willing to stand by that guarantee of four-to-one. And we've excelled that, we've got significant different data types on, on that array, and we've hit nine-to-one and that's gradually grown over the last nine months, you know, we were kind of at the six then we moved to seven and now we're hitting nine-to-one ratio. >> (Dave) That's great. So you get a little free storage. That's interesting what you're saying, Richard, cause I just assumed that a company that guaranteed four-to-one is going to say okay, let us, let us inspect your workload first and then we'll do the deal. So Avishek, what's the tech behind that data reduction that you're able to, with such confidence, not have to pre inspect the workload in this case anyway. >> Yeah. So, it goes back to the technologies that goes behind the product, right? So, so we, we stand behind the technology and we want to make it simpler for our customers as well where, again we don't want to spend weeks looking at all the data, scanning all the data before giving the guarantee. So we stand behind the technology where we understand that as the data is coming in, we are always going to be de-duplicate it. We are always going to compress it. There is technology within the product where we are offloading some of that to the outside the CPU, so it is not impacting the performance that the applications are going to see. So a data reduction by itself is not good enough, performance by itself is not good enough. Both of them have to be together, right? So, and that's what Power Store brings to the table. >> (Dave) Thank you. So Richard, I'm interested. I mean, I remember the Power Store announcement of, sort of, saw it leading up to it. And one of the big thrusts from Dell was the way I phrase it is essentially trying to create a cloud like experience on-prem. So really focused on simplicity. So my question to you is, let's start with just the deployment. You know, how complicated was it to install? What was that process like? How many clicks, I mean, not that you have to tell me how many clicks, but you know, what I'm asking is, is how difficult was it to get from zero to, you know, up and running? >> Well, we actually stepped our very difficult challenge. We were in quite a difficult situation where we'd pretty much gone off the cliff in terms of our IOPS performance. So the RFP was quite rapid, and then we needed to get whoever which vendor was successful, we needed to get that deployed rather rapidly and on the floor in our data center and server rooms, which we did. And it was very very simplistic, within three weeks of placing the order, we had that array in our server rack and we'd begun the migration, it was very simple to set up. And the management of that array has been, we've seen say 40% reduction in terms of effort to be able to manage our storage because it is very self-contained, you know, even from a reporting perspective, the deployment, the migration was all very, very, very simplistic, and you know, we we've done some work recently where we had to also do some work on the array and some other migrations that we were doing and the resilience came, came to, came to the forefront of where the Juul architecture and no single point of failure enabled us to do some things that we needed to do quite rapidly because of the, the Juul norms and the resilience within, within the unit and within the Power Store itself was considerable where we, we kept performance up, it also prioritize any discreet rebuilds, keeps the incoming ingest rates high, and prioritizes the, you know, the workloads, which is really impressive, especially when we are moving so quickly with our technology. We don't really have much time to, you know, micromanage the estate. >> (Dave) Can you, can you just repeat what you said on the percent reduction? I think I heard you cut out there a little bit, a percent reduction on, on, on management, on, on, on the labor side. >> So our lead storage engineer is estimated around 40% less management. >> (Dave) Wow. Okay. So that's, that's good. So actually, I love this conversation because, you know, in the early days of automation, people like, ah, that's my job, provisioning LUNs. I'm really good at it, but I think people are realizing that it's actually not something that you want to be really good at. It's something that you want to eliminate. So, it now maybe it's that storage engineer got his or her nights and weekends back, but, but what do they do now when they get that extra time, what do you, what do you put them on? You know, no more strategic initiatives or, you know, other, other tech things on the to-do list. What's that like?. >> The last thing that, you know, any of my team, whether it's the storage leads or some of the infrastructure team that were also involved in engaged, cause you know, the organization, we have to be quite versatile as a team in our skillsets. We don't want to be doing those BAU mundane tasks. Even the storage engineer does not want to be allocating LUNs and allocating storage to physical servers, Vms, etc. We want all of that to be automated. And, you know, those engineers, they're working on some of the cutting edge things that we're trying to do with machine learning as an example, which is much more interesting. It's what they want to be doing. You know, that aides, the obvious things like retention, interest and personal development, we don't want to be, you know, that base IT infrastructure management, is not where any of the engineers wants to be. >> (Dave) In terms of the decision to go with Dell Power Store. I'm definitely hearing there was a relationship. There was an existing relationship with Dell. I'm sure that played into it. >> There were many things. So the relationship wasn't really part of this, even though I've mentioned the end-user compute in any sets or anything that we're procuring, we want best of breed, you know, best of sets. And that was done on, the cost is definitely a driver. The technology, you know, is a big trust to us, We're a tech company, new technology to us is also fascinating, not only our own, but also the storage guarantee, the simplicity, the resilience within, within the unit. Also the ability, which was key to us because of what we're trying to do with our hybrid model and bring, bring back repatriate some of the data as it were from the client. We needed that ability to, with ease, to be able to scale up and scale high, and the Power Store gave us that. >> (Dave) When you say cost, I want to dig into that price or you know, the price tag or the, the cost, I mean, when you do the business case. And I wonder if we could add a little color to that. >> (Richard) There's two elements to this, so they're not only the cost of the price tag, but then also cost of ownership and the comparisons that we were running against the other vendors, but also the comparisons that we were running from a CAPEX investment against OPEX and what we have in the cloud, and also the performance, performance that we get from the cloud and our cloud storage and the resilience within that. And then also the initial price tag, and then comparing the CapEx investments to the OPEX where all elements that were key to us making our decision. And I know that there has to be some credit taken by the Dell account team and that their relationship towards the final phrase of that RFP, you know, were key initially, not all, we were just looking for the best possible storage solution for Ultraleap. >> (Dave) And to determine that on your end, was that like a feature, because it's sometimes fuzzy what the business impact is going to be like that 40% you mentioned, or the data reduction at nine to one, when there's a promise of four to one, did you, what did you do? Did you kind of do a feature function analysis and sort of line that up and, and say, okay, I'm going to map that to our business processes our IT processes and try to predict what the impact would be. Is that how you did it? or did you take a different approach? >> (Richard) We did. So we did that, obviously between vendors usually expected an RFP, but then also mapping to how that would impact the business. And that is not an easy process to go through. And we've seen more gains even comparing one vendor to another, some of that because of the technology, the terminology is very very different and sometimes you have to bring that upper level and also gain a much more detailed understanding, which at times can be challenging, but we did a very like-for-like comparison and, and also lots of research, but you're quite right. The business analysis to what we needed. We had quite a good forecast and from summarized stock information data, and also our engineering and business and strategic roadmap, we were able to map those two together, not the easiest of experiences, not one that I want to repeat, but we, we got it. (Dave laughing) >> (Dave)Yeah, a little bit of art and science involved. Avishek, maybe you could talk about Power Store, what, you know, give us the commercial. What makes it different from other products in the market of things like cloud IQ? Maybe you could talk about that a little bit. >> Sure. So, so again, from a, it's music to my ears, when Richard talks about the ease of deployment and the management, because there is a lot of focus on that. But even as I said earlier, from a man technology perspective, a lot of goodness built-in, in terms of being able to consolidate a customer's environment, onto the platform. So that's more from a storage point of view that give the best performance, give the best data reduction, storage efficiencies. The second part, of course, the flexibility, the options that Power Store gives to the customers in terms of sort of desegregating the storage and the compute aspects of it. So if, as a customer, I want to start with different points in terms of what our customer requirements are today, but going forward as the requirements change from a compute capacity perspective, you can use a scale up and scale out capabilities, and then the intelligence built in, right? So, as you scale out your cluster, being able to move storage around right, as needed being able to do that non-disruptively. So instead of saying that Mr. Customer, your, your storage is going to you're at 90% capacity, being able to say that based on your historical trending, we expect you run out of capacity in six months, some small things like that, right? And of course, if the, the dial home, the support assist capabilities that enabled, cloud IQ brings a lot of intelligence to the table as well. In addition to that, as they mentioned earlier, there is apps on capability that gives another level of flexibility to the customers to integrate your storage infrastructure into a virtual environment, if the customer chooses to do that. And last but not the least, it's not just about the product, right? So it's about the programs that we have put around it, anytime upgrade is a big differentiator for us, where it's an investment protection program for customers, where if they want to have the peace of mind, in terms of three months, nine months, three years down the line, if we come out with new technologies, being able to be upgrade to that non-disruptively is a big part of it as well. It's a peace of mind for the customers that, yes I'm getting into the Power Store architecture today, but going forward, I'm protected from that point of view. So anytime upgrade, it's a new business program that we put around leveraging the architectural benefits of Power Store, whether your compute requirement, your storage requirements change, you're covered from that point of view. So again, a very quick overview of, of what Power Store is, why it is different. And again, that's where that comes from. >> (Dave) Thank you for that. Richard, are you actively using cloud IQ? Do you get the, what kind of value do you get from it? >> Not currently. However, we have, we have had plans to do that. The uptake and BCR, our internal Workload is not allowed us, to do that. But one of the other key reasons for selecting Power Store was the non-disruptive element, you know, with other SaaS products, other providers, and other issues that we have experienced. That was one, that was a key decision for us from a Power Store perspective. One of the other, you know, to go back to the conversation slightly, in terms of performance, we are getting, getting there. You know, there's a 400% speed of improvement of publishing. We've got an 80% faster code coverage. Our firmware builds a 1300% quicker than they were previously. and the time savings of the storage engineer and, you know, as a director of IT, I often asked for certain reports from, from the storage array, we're working at, for storage forecast, performance forecast, you know, when we're coming close to product releases, code drops that we're trying to manage, the reporting or the Power Store is impressive. Whereas previously my storage engineer would not be the, the most happiest of people when I would be trying to pull, you know, monthly and quarterly reports, et cetera. Whereas now it's, it's ease and we have live dashboards running and we can easily extract that information. >> (Dave) I love that because, you know, so often we talk about the 40% reduction in IT labor, which okay, that's cool. But then your CFO's going to say, yeah, but it's not like we're getting rid of people. We, you know, we're still spending that money and you're like, okay. You're now into soft dollars, but when you talk about 400%, 80%, 1300% of what you're talking about business impact and that's telephone numbers to a CFO. So I love those metrics. Thank you for sharing. >> Yeah. But what would, they obviously, it's sort of like dashboards when they visualize that they are very hard hitting, you know, the impact. You're quite right the CFO does chase down you know, the availability and the resource profile, however, we're on a huge upward trajectory. So having the right resilience and infrastructure in places is exactly what we need. And as I mentioned before, those engineers are all reallocated to much more interesting work and, you know, the areas that will actually drive our business forward. >> (Dave) Speaking of resilience, are you doing any replication? >> Not currently. However, we've actually got a meeting regarding this today with some of the enterprise and some of their storage specialists, in a couple of hours time, actually, because that is a very high on the agenda for us to be able to replicate and have a high availability cluster and another potentially Power Store need. >> (Dave) Okay. So I was going to ask you where you want to take this thing. I'm hearing, you're looking at cloud IQ, really try to exploit that. So you got some headroom here in terms of the value that you can get out of this platform to do replication, faster recovery, et cetera, maybe protect against, you know, events. Guys, Thanks so much for your time. Really appreciate your insights. >> (Richard) No problem. >> (Avishek) Thank you. >> And thank you for watching this cube conversation. This is Dave Vellante and we'll see you next time.

(happy techno music) >> Welcome everybody to this cube conversation. My name is Dave Vellante and we're joined today by Richard Goodwin. Who's the group director of IT at Ultra Leap and Avishek Kumar who manages Dell's power store product line and directs that product line along with several other lines for the company, gentlemen, welcome to the cube. >> Hi Dave >> Hi >> So Richard ultra leap, very cool company tracks, hand movements, and so forth. Tell us about the company and the technology, I'm really interested in how it's used. >> Yeah, we've had many product lines, obviously. We're at very innovative, um and the organization was spun up from PhD, a number of PhD students who were the co-founders for ultra leap. um And initially with mid-air haptics, um as you, as many people may have seen, but also hand tracking, mid-air had such a sense and feel. So, yeah, it's, it's, it's quite impressive what we have produced and the number of sectors and markets that we're in. Um And obviously to push us to, to where we are, we have relied upon lots of the Dell technology, both software and hardware. >> And what's your role at the company. >> Uh, I'm the group IT director, uh, I'm responsible for the it and business platforms or infrastructure network hardware software, and also the transparency of those platforms to ensure that we're scalable. And we are able to develop our software and hardware as rapidly as possible. >> Awesome. Yeah, a lot of data behind that too. I bet. Um okay Avishek, you direct a number of products at Dell across the portfolio, unity, extreme IO, the SC series, and of course, power vault. It's, it's quite the portfolio that you look after. So let's get into the case study. If we can, a bit, Richard, maybe you could paint a picture of, of your environment, some of the key applications that you're supporting and maybe what your infrastructure looks like. Give us a high level view. >> Sure. So pretty power store. We had quite a disparate architecture, so a fairly significant split and siding on the side of cloud, not as hybrid as we would like, and not, not as much as our on-prem as we would have liked and Hey, that, that has changed quite significantly. So we now have a number of servers and storage and storage arrays that we have on, on premise. And then we host ourselves. So we are moving quite rapidly, you know, as a, as a startup and then moving to a scale-up we needed that, that scalability and that versatility, and also the whole OPEX versus CapEx and, um, and also not being driven by lots of SaaS products and architecture and infrastructure where we needed to be in control because of our development cycles and our products, product development. >> So wait, oh okay. So, so too much cloud, you wanted to run a little bit of a dose of on-prem explain that a little bit more the cloud wasn't doing it for you in terms of your development cycle, your control, can you double click on that? >> Yeah. Some of the, some of the control and, you know, there's always a balance because there are certain elements of our development cycles and our engineering software engineering, where we need a very high parallelism for some of the work that we're doing, which then, you know, the CapEx investment makes things very, very challenging, not commercially that the right thing to do. However, there are some of our information, some of IP, some of the secure things that we do, we also do not want upgrades as an example, or any outages or certain types of server and spec that we need to be quite bespoke and unique, and that needs to be within our control. >> Got it, okay. Thank you for that. Avishek, we're going to talk about power store today. So set it up, please tell us about power store, what it is, you know, why it's important to this conversation. >> Sure, so power store store is a product that we launched may of 2020, roughly a little bit more than a year now. And it's a brand new architecture that Dell technologies released. And at the end of the day, I'll talk about a few unique aspects of the product, but at the end of the day, the, where we start with it's a storage platform, right? So where we see similar to what Richard is saying here, in terms of being able to consolidate the customer's environment, whether it is blog file, weevils, physical virtual environments, and, and it's, as I said, it's a brand new architecture where we leveraged pieces of existing products, where it makes sense and it's, we are using all the latest and greatest technologies delivering the best performance based data reduction and, and where we see a lot of traction is the options that it brings to the table for our customers in terms of flexibility, whether they want to add capacity compute, whether in fact, we have apps on the current model where customers can consolidate their compute as well on the static storage platform if needed. So a lot of innovation from a platform perspective itself, and it's not just about the platform itself, but what comes along with it, right? So we refer to it as an ecosystem, part of it, where we work with Ansible playbooks, CSI plugin, you name it, right. And it's, the storage platform by itself. Doesn't that, doesn't stand by itself in a customer's environment there are other aspects of the infrastructure that it needs to integrate with as well. Right? So if they're using Ansible playbooks, we want to make sure the integration is there. >> Got it. >> And last but not the least is the intelligence built into the platform, right? So as we are building these capabilities into the product, there is intelligence built into the product, as well as outside the product where things like cloud IQ, things like uh, um, technologies built into power suit itself makes it that much easier for the customers to manage the infrastructure and go from there. >> Thank you for that, so, Richard, what was the workload? So it actually, you started with sort of a Greenfield on prem. If I understand it correctly, what was the workload that you were sort of building around or workloads? >> Sorry, we had a, a number of different applications. Some of which we cannot really talk about too much, but we had, we had a VxRail, we had a, a smaller Dell array, and we have lots of what we classes, runners, cubeanetics cluster that we that we run and quite a few different VMs that run on our, on-prem server infrastructure and storage rates and the issues that we began to hit because of the high IO, from some of our, um, workloads that we were hitting very high latency, which rapidly stopped, began to cause us issues, especially with some of our software engineering teams. And that is when we embarked upon a competitive RFP for uh, Dell power store. Dell were already engaged from an end-user compute where they'd been selected as the end-user compute provider from a previous competitive RFP. And then we engaged them regarding the storage issue that we had, and we engaged the, our account leading count exec, and a number of solution architects were working with us to ensure that we have the optimal solution. Dell were selected over the competitors because of many reasons, you know, the, the, the new technology, the DG plication, the compression, that data overall data reduction, and the guarantee that also came, uh, came with that, with the four to one data reduction guarantee, which was significant to us because of the amount of data that we hold. Um, And we have, you know, as I mentioned, we're pulling further, further data of ours back into our hosted environments, which will end up on the power store, especially with the duplication that we're now getting. We've actually hit nine to one, which is significant. We were expecting four to one, maybe five to one with some of the data types. And what was excellent Dale were that confident that they did not even review our data types prior. And they were willing to stand by that guarantee of four to one and we've excelled that we've got different data types on, on that array, and we've hit nine to one and that's gradually grown over the last nine months. You know, we were kind of six them we moved to seven and now we're hitting nine to one ratios. >> That's great. So you get a little free storage. That's interesting what you're saying, Richard, cause I just assumed that a company that's guaranteed four to one is going to say, okay, let us, let us inspect your workload first and then we'll do the deal. So Avishek, what's the tech behind that data reduction that you're able to with such confidence, not have to pre inspect the workload in this case anyway. >> Yeah. So, so it goes back to the technologies that goes behind the product, right? So, so we, we stand behind the technology and we want to make it simpler for our customers as well. Where again, we don't want to spend weeks looking at all the data, scanning all the data before giving the guarantee. So we stand behind the technology where we understand that as the data is coming in, we are always going to be duplicated. We are always going to compress it. There is technology within the product where we are offloading some of that to the outside the CPU. So it is not impacting the performance that the applications are going to see. So a data reduction by itself is not going to get enough performance by itself is not good enough. Both of them have to be together. Right. So, and that's what powers to brings to the table. >> Yeah. Thank you. So Richard, I'm interested. I mean, I remember the power store announcement, sort of saw it leading up to it. And one of the big thrusts from Dell was the way I phrase it is essentially trying to create a cloud-like experience on-prem. So really focused on simplicity. So my question to you is, let's start with just the deployment. You know, how complicated was it to install? What was that process like? How many clicks, I mean, not that you have to tell me how many clicks, but you know, what I'm asking is, is how difficult was it to get from zero to, you know, up and running? >> Well, we actually sat down with a very difficult challenge. We were in quite a difficult situation where we'd pretty much got off of a cliff in terms of IOPS performance. So the RFP was quite rapid. And then we needed to get which, whoever, which vendor was successful, we need to get that deployed rather rapidly and on the floor in our data center and server rooms, which we did. And it was very, very simplistic within three weeks of placing the order. We had that array in our server rack and we'd begun the migration that it was very simple to set up. And the management of that array has been, we we've seen say 40% reduction in terms of effort it took to be able to manage our storage because it is very self-contained, you know, even from a reporting perspective, the deployment, the migration was all very, very, very simplistic. And, you know, we we've done some work recently where we had to also do some work on the array and some other migrations that we were doing and the resilience came, came to, came to the forefront of where the whole architecture and no single point of failure enabled us to do some things that we needed to do quite rapidly because of the, the jole notes and the resilience within, within the unit and within the power store itself was considerable where we, we kept performance up. People also prioritize any discreet rebuilds, keeps the incoming ingest rates high and prioritizes that, you know, the workloads, which is really impressive, especially when we are moving so quickly with our technology. We don't really have much time to, you know, micromanage the estate. >> Can you, can you just repeat what you said on the percent reduction? I think I heard you cut out there a little bit, a percent reduction on, on, on management, on, on, on the labor side. >> So our lead storage engineer is estimated around 40% less management. >> Wow. Okay. So that's, that's good. So actually, I, I love this conversation because, you know, in the early the days of automation, people are like, ah, that's my job provisioning, LUNs. I'm really good at it. But I think people are realizing that it's actually not something that you want to be really good at. It's something that you want to eliminate. So it now maybe it's a, that, storage engineer got his or her nights and weekends back, uh, but, but what do they do now when they get that extra time, what do you, what do you put them on? You know, no more strategic initiatives or, you know, other, other tech things in the to-do list, what's that like? >> You know, any of my team, whether it's the storage leads or some of the infrastructure team that are also involved in engaged, cause you know, the organization, we have to be quite versatile as a team in our skillsets. We don't want to be doing those BAU mundane tasks. Even the storage engineer does not want to be, you know, allocating Luns and allocating storage to physical servers, VMs, et cetera. We want all of that to be automated. And the, you know, those engineers, are they working on some of the cutting edge things that we're trying to do with machine learning as a, as an example, which is much more interesting, it's what they want to be doing. Um, you know, that aides, the obvious things like retention interest and personal development, we don't want to be, you know, that base IT infrastructure management is, is, is not, not where any of the engineers wants to be. >> In terms of the decision to go with Dell power store. I, I, I'm definitely hearing there was a relationship. There was an existing relationship with Dell. I'm sure that played into it. And you, you mentioned a couple of times that RFP, so, so you kind of lined up various various vendors. What can you tell us about that in, in addition to the relationship, what was it that led you to power store? >> Uh, there were many things saying, you know, the relationship wasn't really part of this, even though I've mentioned the end user compute in any sets or anything that we're procuring, we want best of breed and best of set, but, and there were four vendors that were engaged in the RFP and it was down selected to, two, and that was done on the cost is definitely a driver. The technology, you know, is a big trust to us. We're a tech company. New technology to us is also fascinating, not only our own but also the, the storage guarantee, the simplicity, the resilience within, within the unit. Also the, the ability which was key to us because of what we're trying to do with our hybrid model and bring, bring back and repatreize some of the data as it were um, from the client, we needed that ability to, with ease, to be able to scale up and scale out, and the power store gave us that. >> When you say cost of, I want to dig into that price or, you know, the, the, the, the price tag or the, the cost. I mean, when you do the business case, and I wonder if we could add a little color to that. >> Yeah, the, the, there there's two elements to this, so there's not even the cost of the price tag, but then also cost of ownership and the comparisons that we were running against the other vendors, but also the comparisons that we were running from a CapEx investment against OPEX and what we have in the cloud, and also the performance and performance that we get from the cloud and our cloud storage and a resilience within that, and then also the initial price tag, and then comparing the CapEx investments to the OPEX were all elements that were, were key to us making our decision. And you know that there has to be some credit taken by the Dell account team and their relationship towards the final phrase of that RFP, you know, were key, initially, not at all, we were just looking for the best possible storage solution for ultra-leap. >> And to, to determine that on your end, was that like a feature, because it's sometimes fuzzy what the business impact is going to be like that 40% you mentioned, or the data reduction at nine to one, when there's a promise of four to one, did you, what did you do? Did you kind of do a feature function analysis and sort of line that up and, and say, okay, I'm going to map that to our business, our processes, our IT processes, and try to predict what the impact would be. Is that how you did it, or did you take a different approach? >> We did. So we did that, obviously between vendors as you'd expected in RFP, but then also mapping to how that would impact the business. And that that is not an easy process to go through. We've seen more gains, even comparing one vendor to another, some of that because of the technology, the terminology is very, very different and sometimes you have to bring that up a level and also gain a much more detailed understanding, which at times can be challenging, but we did a very like-for-like comparison and, and also lots of research, but you're quite right. The, the, the business analysis to what we needed. We had quite a good forecast and from my supplier stock and information data, and also our engineering and business and strategic roadmap, we were able to map those two together, not the easiest of experiences, not one that I want to repeat, but we got through it. >> Yeah, a little bit of art and science involved. Avishek, maybe you could talk about power store, what, you know, give us the commercial. What makes it different from other products in the market? Things like cloud IQ, maybe you could talk about that a little bit. >> Sure, so, so again, from a, a it's music to my ears, when Richard talks about the ease of deployment and the management, because there is a lot of focus on that. But even as I said earlier, from a manned technology perspective, a lot of goodness built in, in terms of being able to consolidate a customer's environment into, onto the platform. So that's more from a storage point of view that will give the best performance, give the best data reduction, storage efficiencies. Um, the second part, of course, the flexibility, the options that power store it gives to the customers in terms of sort of desegregating the storage and the compute aspects of it. So if, as a customer, I want to start with different points in terms of what our customer requirements are today, but going forward as requirements changed from a compute capacity perspective, you can use a scale up and scale out capabilities, and then the intelligence built in, right? So as you scale out your cluster, being able to move storage around right, as needed being able to do that non-disruptively. So instead of saying that Mr. Customer you're, you're storage is going to, you're at 90% capacity, being able to say that based on your historical trending, we expect you run out of capacity in six months, some small things like that. Right. And of course, if the, the dial home, the support assist capabilities that are enabled, cloud IQ brings a lot of intelligence to the table as well. In addition to that, as they mentioned earlier, there is apps on capability that gives another level of flexibility to the customers to integrate your storage infrastructure into a virtual environment. If the customer chooses to do that. And last but not the least, it's not just about the product right? So it's about the programs that we have put around it. Any anytime I'll create is a big differentiator for us, where it's an investment protection program for customers, where if they want to have the peace of mind, in terms of three months, nine months, three years down the line, if we come out with new technologies, being able to be upgrade to that non-disruptively is a big part of it as well. It's a peace of mind for the customers that, yes, I'm getting into the power store architecture today, but going forward, I am I'm protected from that point. So anytime I upgrade, it's a new business program that we put around leveraging the architectural benefits of power stool, whether your compute requirements, your storage requirements change you're, you're, you're covered from that point of view. So again, very quick a overview of, of what power store is, why it is different, and again, that's where that comes from. >> Thank you for that. Richard, are you, are you actively using cloud IQ? Do you get, what kind of value do you get from it? >> Not currently. However, we have, we have had plans to do that. The uptake and BCR, our internal workload has not allowed us to do that, but one of the other key reasons for selecting power source was the, the non-disruptive element, you know, with other SaaS products, other providers, and other issues that we have experienced. That was one, that was a, a key decision for us from a, a power store perspective. One of the other, you know, I would like to go back to the conversation slightly, in terms of performance, we are getting, getting now, you know, there's a 400% speed of improvement of publishing. We've got an 80% faster code coverage. So our firmware builds a 1300% quicker than they were previously and, and the time savings of the storage engineer and, you know, as a, as director of IT, I often asked for certain reports from, from the storage array, when we're working out for, um, storage forecast, performance forecast. And, you know, when we're coming close to product releases, code drops that we're trying to manage, the reporting or the power stories is impressive. Whereas previously my storage engineer would not be the, the most happiest of people when I would be trying to pull, you know, monthly and quarterly reports, et cetera. Whereas now it's, it's easy and we have live dashboards running, and we can easily extract that information. >> I love that, because, you know, so often we talk about the 40% reduction in IT, labor, uh, which, which, okay, that's cool. But then your CFO's going to say, yeah, but it's not like we're getting rid of people. We, you know, we're still spending that money and you, okay. They're getting you're now into soft dollars, but when you talk about 400%, 18%, 1300% of what you're talking about, business impact and that's telephone numbers to a CFO. So I love those metrics. Thank you for sharing. >> Yeah. But what would, they, obviously, in some of our dashboards when they visualize that they are very hard hitting, you know, the impact that you're quite right that the CFO does chase down, you know, the availability and the resource profile, however, we're on a huge upward trajectory. So having the right resilience and infrastructure in places is exactly what we need. And as I mentioned before, those engineers are all reallocated to much more interesting work. And, you know, the, the areas that will actually drive our business forward. >> Speaking of resilience, are you doing any replication? >> Not currently. However, there, uh, we've actually got a meeting regarding this today with some of that was a surprise that some of their storage specialists in a couple of hours time, actually, because that is a very high on the agenda for us to be able to replicate and have a high availability cluster and another potentially power store name. >> So I was going to ask you kind of where you want to take this thing. I'm hearing you, you're looking at cloud IQ, really try to exploit that. So you've got some headroom here in terms of the value that you can get out of this platform to, to do replication, faster recovery, et cetera, maybe protect against, you know, events. Any other things that you would identify as things you would either want from Dell or things that you'd like to see this platform direction you'd like to see it take in the future? >> Uh, yeah. We, we actually had some discussions recently and we are actively involved in some of the power store roadmap, which is, which is really good for us because we get visibility. And we also get to feed back to Dell on some of the features that we would like to see. So one of the things that we're discussing is a virtual kind of power store is what we would like to see. So some of that resilience would be really useful for us to be able to fail over quite rapidly and have live access to you are sick of data rather than potentially having hole sites. And we're looking at some of the Dell service offerings, which are quite impressive and is currently ticking. You know, we're very early in the, in the stages of the discovery, but there's quite a few boxes being ticked. Currently. >> Guys, we got to leave it there. I love this example of where you've got infrastructure, really connecting directly to a fast growth company, helping it scale, guys, thanks so much for your time. Really appreciate your insights. >> Thank you >> And thank you And thank you for watching this cube conversation. This is Dave Volante, and we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

>>10 years ago, a group of industry storage veterans formed a company called Infinidat. The DNA of the company was steeped in the heritage of its founder, Moshe Yanai, who had a reputation for relentlessly innovating on three main areas, the highest performance, rock solid availability, and the lowest possible cost. Now these elements have historically represented the superpower triumvirate of a successful storage platform. Now, as Infinidat evolved, landed on a fourth vector, that has been a key differentiator and its value proposition, and that is petabyte scale. Hello everyone. And welcome to this Qube conversation. My name is Dave Vellante and I'm pleased to welcome in two longtime friends of theCube. Phil Bullinger is newly minted CEO of Infinidat and of course, Lee Caswell, VMware's VP of Marketing for the cloud platform business unit. Gents, welcome. >>Great to be here. Always good to see you guys. Phil, so you're joining at the 10 year anniversary mark. Congratulations on the appointment. What attracted you to the company? >>You know I spent a long time in my career at enterprise storage and, and enjoying many of the opportunities, you know, through a number of companies. Last fall when I became aware of the Infinidat opportunity and it immediately captured my attention because of frankly my respect for the product through several opportunities I've had with enterprise customers in selling cycles of different products, if they happened to be customers of Infinidat, , they were not bashful about talking about their satisfaction with the product, their level of delight with it. And so I think from, from the sidelines, I've always had a lot of respect for the Infinidat platform, the implementation of the product quality and reliability that it's kind of legendary for. And so when the opportunity came along, it really captured my interest in of course behind a great product is almost always a great team. >>And as I got to know the company and the board, and, you know, some of the leaders, and learned about the momentum and the business, it was just a very, very compelling opportunity for me. And I'll have to say just, you know, 60 days into the job. Everything I hoped for is here, not only a warm welcome to the company, but an exciting opportunity with respect to where Infinidat is at today with the growth of the business. The company has achieved a level of consistent growth through 2020, cashflow positive, EBITDA positive. And now it's a matter of scaling, scaling the business and it's something that I have had success with several times in my career and really, really enjoying the opportunity here at Infinidat to do that. >>That's great. Thanks for that. Now, of course, Lee, VMware was founded nearly a quarter century ago and carved out a major piece of the enterprise pie and predominantly that's been on prem, but the data center's evolving the cloud is evolving, and this universe is expanding. How do you see the future of that on-prem data center? >>No, I think Satya recently said, right, that, that we've reached max consolidation almost right. You pointed that out earlier. I thought that was really interesting, right. You know, we believe in the distributed hybrid cloud and you know, the reasons for that actually turn out to be storage led in there and in, in the real thinking about it, because we're going to have distributed environments and, you know, one of the things that we're doing with Infinidat here today, right, is we're showing how customers can invest intelligently and responsibly on prem and have bridges in across the hybrid cloud. We do that through something called the VMware Cloud Foundation. That's a full stack offering that, uh, an interesting here, right? It started off with a HCI element, but it's expanded into storage and storage at scale, you know, because storage is going to exist... We have very powerful storage value propositions, and you're seeing customers go and deploy both. We're really excited about seeing Infinidat lean into the VMware Cloud Foundation and vVols actually as a way to match the pace of change in today's application world. >>These trends, I mean, building bridges is what we called it. And so that takes a lot of hard work, especially when you're doing from on-prem into hybrid, across clouds, eventually the edge, you know, that's a, that's a non-trivial task. How do you see this playing out in market trends? >>Yeah. You know, we're, we're in the middle of this every day as, as you know, Dave, uh, and certainly Lee, uh, data center architectures ebb and flow from centralized to decentralized, but clearly data locality, I think, is driving a lot of the growth of the distributed data center architecture, the edge data centers, but core is still very significant for, for most enterprise. Uh, and it's, it's, it has, it has a lot to do with the fact that most enterprises want to own their own cloud. You know, when a Fortune 15 or a Fortune 50 or Fortune 100 customer, when they talk about their cloud, they don't want to talk about, you know, the AWS cloud or the GCP cloud or the Azure cloud. They want to talk about their cloud. And almost always, these are hybrid architectures with a large on-prem or colo footprint. >>Uh, the reason for that number of reasons, right? Data sovereignty is a big deal, uh, among the highest priorities for enterprise today. The control of the security, the, the ability to recover quickly from ransomware attacks, et cetera. These, these are the things that are just fundamentally important, uh, to the business continuity and enterprise risk management plan for these companies. But I think one thing that has changed the on prem data center is the fact that it's the core operating characteristics have to take on kind of that public cloud characteristic. It has to be a transparent, seamless scalability. I think the days of, of CIO's  you know, even tolerating people showing up in their data centers with, with disk trays under their arms to add capacity is, is over. Um, they want to seamlessly add capacity. They want nonstop operation, a hundred percent uptime is the bar. >>Now it has to be a consolidation. Massive consolidation is clearly the play for TCO and efficiency. They don't want to have any compromises between scale and availability and performance. You know, the, the very characteristics that you talked about upfront, Dave, that make Infinidat unique, I think are fundamentally the characteristics that enterprises are looking for when they build their cloud on prem. Uh, I, I think our architecture also really does provide a, a set it and forget it, uh, kind of experience. Um, when we install a new Infinidat frame in an enterprise data center, our intentions are we're, we're not going to come back. We don't intend to come back, uh, to, to help fiddle with the bits or, uh, you know, tweak the configuration as applications and, and multitenant users are added. And then of course, flexible economic models. I mean, everybody takes this for granted, but you really, really do have to be completely flexible between the two rails, the CapEx rail and the OpEx rail and every, uh, every step in between. And importantly, when a customer, when an enterprise customer needs to add capacity, they don't have a sales conversation. They just want to have it right. They're already running in their data center. And that's the experience that we provide. >>Yeah. You guys are aligned in that vision, that layer, that abstracts the complexity from the underlying wherever cloud on prem, et cetera. Right. Let's talk about the VMware and Infinidat relationship. I mean, every, every year at VMworld, up until last year, thank you COVID, Infinidat would host this awesome dinner. You'd have the top customers there. Very nice Vegas steak restaurant. I, of course, I always made a point to stop by not just for the food. I mean, I was able to meet some customers and I've talked to many dozens over the years, Phil, and I can echo that sentiment, but, you know, why is the VMware ecosystem so important to Infinidat? And I guess the question there is, is, is petabyte scale that really that prominent in the VMware customer base? >>It's a, it's a very, very important point. VMware is the longest standing Alliance partner of Infinidat. It goes back to really, almost the foundation of the company, certainly starting with the release one, the very first commercial release of Infinidat VMware and a very tight integration with the VMware was a core part of that. Uh, we, we have a capability. We call the Host PowerTools, which drives a consistent best practices implementation around our, our VMware, uh, integration and, and how it's actually used in the data center. And we built on that through the years through just a deep level of integration. And, um, our customers typically are, are at scale petabyte scale or average deployment as a petabyte and up, um, and over 90% of our customers use VMware. So you would say, I, I think I can safely say we're we serve the VMware environment for some of VMware's largest enterprise footprints, uh, in the market. >>I know it's like children, you got, you love all your partners, but is there anything about Infinidat that, that stands out to you a particular area where, where they shine that from your perspective? >>Yeah, I think so. You know, the, the best partnerships, one are ones that are customer driven. It turns out right. And the idea that we have joint customers at large scale and listen storage is a tough business to get, right, right. It takes time to go and mature to harden a code base. Right. And particularly when you're talking about petabyte scale, right now, you've basically got customers buying in for the largest systems. And what we're seeing overall is customers are trying to do more things with fewer component elements, makes sense, right? And so the scale here is important because it's not just scale in terms of like capacity, right. It's scale in terms of performance as well. And so, as you see customers trying to expand the number of different types of applications, this is one of the things we're seeing, right. Is new applications, which could be container-based Kubernetes orchestrated our Tanzu portfolio helps with that. >>Right. If you see what we're doing with Nvidia, for example, we announced some AI work, right. Uh, this week with vSphere. And so what you're starting to see is like the changing nature of applications and the fast pace of applications is really helping customers save us. And I want to go and find solutions that can meet the majority of my needs. And that's one of the things that we're seeing. And particularly with the vVols integration at scale, that we just haven't seen before, uh, and Infinidat has set the bar and is really setting a new, a new record for that. >>Yeah. Let me, let me comment on that a little bit, Dave, we've been a core part of the VMware Cloud Solutions Lab, which is a very, very exciting engaging, investment that VMware has made. A lot of people have contributed to in the industry, but in the, in the VMware Cloud Solutions Lab, we recently demonstrated on a single Infinidat frame over 200,000 vVols on a single system. And I think that not only edges up the bar, I think it completely redefines what, what scale means when you're talking about a vVols implementation. >>So not to geek out here, but vVols, they're kind of a game changer because instead of admins, having to manually allocate storage to performance tiers. An array, that is VASA certified, VASA is VMware, or actually vStorage API for, for storage awareness, VASA, anyway, with vVols, you can dynamically provision storage that matches the way I say it as a match as device attributes to the data and the application requirements of the VM. So Phil,  it seems like so much in VMware land hearkens back to the way mainframes used to solve problems in a modern way. Right. And vVols is a real breakthrough in that regard in terms of storage. So, so how do you guys see it? I, I presume you're, you're sort of vVols certified based on what you just said in the lab. >>Yeah. We recently announced our vVols release and we're not the first to market with the vVols, but from, from the start of the engineering project, we wanted to do it. We wanted to do it the way we think. We think at scale in everything we do, and our customers were very prescriptive about the kind of scale and performance and availability that they wanted to experience in vVols. And we're now seeing quite a bit of customer interest with traction in it. Uh, as I said, we, we redefined the bar for vVols scalability. We support on a single array now, um, a thousand storage containers. Uh, and I think most of our competition is like at one or maybe 10 or 13 or something like that. So, uh, our customers are, again at scale, they said, if you're going to do vVols, we want it... We want it at scale. We want it to embody the characteristics of your, of your platform. We really liked vVols because it, it helps, it helps separate kind of the roles and responsibilities between the VI administrator and the storage system administrator. If you're going to put a majority of your most critical bits on Infinidat in your data center, you're going to want to, you're going to want to have control over how that resource is used, but yet the vVols mplementation and the tools that we provide with that deep level of integration, give the VI, the VI administrator, all of the flexibility they need to manage applications. And vVols of course gives the VI administrator the native use of our snapshot technology. And so it makes it incredibly easy for them to administrate the platform without having to worry about the physical infrastructure, but yet the people worried about the physical infrastructure still have control over that resource. So it's, it's a game changer as far as we're concerned. >>Yeah. Storage has come a long way. Hasn't it, Lee? I'm wondering if you could add some color here, it seems in talking to ... Uh, so that's interesting. You've had, you had a hand in the growth of vSAN and it was very successful product, but he chose Infinidat for that higher end application. It seems like vVols are a key innovation in that regard. How's the vVols uptake going from your perspective. >>Yeah, I think we you know, we're in the second phase of vVols adoption, right? First phase was, Hey, technically interesting, intriguing. Um, but adoption was relatively low, I think because, you know, up until five years ago, um, applications, weren't actually changing that fast. I mean, think about it, right? The applications, ERP systems, CRM systems, you weren't changing those at the pace of what we're doing today. Now what's happening is every business is a software business. Every business, when you work, when you interact with your healthcare provider right now, it's about the apps. Like, can you go and get your schedules online? Can you email your doctors? Right? Can you go and get your labs? Right? The pace of new application development, we have some data showing that there will be more apps developed in the next five years, and then the past 40 years of computing combined. >>And so when you think about that, what's changed now is trying to manage that all from the kind of storage hardware side was just actually getting in the way you want to organize around the fastest beat rate in your infrastructure today. That's the application. So what vVols has helped you do is it allows the vSphere administrator, who's managing VMs and looking at the apps and the changing pace, and be able to basically select storage attributes, including QoS, capacity, IOPS, and do that from the vCenter console, and then be able to rectify things and manage them right from the console right next to the apps. And that provides a really integrated way. So when you have a close interaction, like what we're talking about today, or, you know, integration, um, that the Infinidat has provided now, you've got this ability to have a faster moving activity. And, you know, consolidation is one of the themes you've heard from time to time from VMware, we're consolidating the management so that the vSphere administrator can now go and manage more things. What traditional VMs yes. VMs across HCI. Sure. Plus now, plus storage and into the hybrid cloud and into like containers. It's that consolidated management, which is getting us speed and basically a consumer like experience for infrastructure deployments. >>Yeah. Now Phil mentioned the solutions lab. We've got a huge ecosystem. Several years ago, you launched this, this via the VMware. I think it's called the VMware Cloud Solutions Lab is the official name. What, explain what it does for collaboration and joint solutions development. And then Phil, I want you to go into more detail about what your participation is, but Lee, why don't you explain it? >>Yeah. You know, we don't take just any products that, because listen, there's a mixing. What we take is things that really expand that innovation frontier. And that's what we saw with Infinidat was expanding the frontier on like large capacity for many, many different mixed workloads and a commitment, right. To go and bring in, not just vVols support, of course, all the things we do for just a normal interaction with vSphere. But, uh, bringing vVols in was certainly important in showing how we operate at scale. And then importantly, as we expanded the VCF, VMware Cloud Foundation, to include storagee systems for a customer, for example, right, who has storage and HCI, right? And it looks for how to go and use them. And that's an individual choice at a customer level. We think this is strategically important. Now, as we expand a multicloud experience, that's different from the hyperscalers. Hyperscalers are coming in with two kind of issues, maybe, right? So one is it's single cloud. And the other one is there's a potential competitive aspect or from some right around the ongoing, underlying business and a hyperscaler business model. And so what VMware uniquely is doing is extending a common control plane across storage systems and HCI, and doing that in a way that basically gives customers choice. And we love that the cloud lab is really designed to go and make that a reality for customers strip out perceived and real risk. >>Yeah. To Lee's point of, it's not like there's not dozens and dozens and dozens of logos on the slide for the lab. I think there's like, you know, 10 or 12 from what I saw and Infinidat is one of them. Maybe you could talk a little bit more about your participation in the program and what it does for customers. >>Yeah, absolutely. And I would agree it's I, we liked the lab because it's not just supposed to be one of everything eye candy it's a purpose-built lab to do real things. And we like it because we can really explore, you know, some of the most contemporary, workloads in that environment, as well as solutions to what I considered some of the most contemporary industry problems. We're participating in a couple of ways. I believe we're the only petabyte scale storage solution in the Cloud Solutions Lab at VMware. One of the projects we're working on with VMware is their machine learning platform.  That's one of the first cloud solutions lab projects that we worked on at Infinidat. And we're also a core part of, of what VMware is driving from a data for good initiative. This was inspired by the idea that that tech can be used as a force for good in the world. And right now it's focused on the technology needs of nonprofits. And so we're closely working in, in the cloud solutions lab with, the VMware cloud foundation layers, as well as, their Tanzu and Kubernetes environments and learning a lot and proving a lot. And it's also a great way to demonstrate the capabilities of our platform. >>Yeah. So, yeah, it was just the other day I was on the VMware analyst meeting virtually of course in Zane and Sanjay and a number of other execs were giving the update. And, and just to sort of emphasize what we've been talking about here, this expansion of on-prem the cloud experience, the data from, especially from our survey data, we have a partner UTR that did great surveys on a regular quarterly basis, the VMware cloud on AWS, doing great for sure, but the VMware Cloud Foundation, the on-prem cloud, the hybrid cloud is really exploding and resonating with customers. And that's a good example of this sort of equilibrium that we're seeing between the public and private coming together >>Well on the VMware Cloud Foundation right now with, uh, you know, over a thousand customers, but importantly over 400 of the global 2000, it's the largest customers. And that's actually where the Venn diagram between the work that VMware Cloud Foundation is doing and Infinidat right, you know, this large scale, actually the, you know, interesting crossover, right. And, you know, listen for customers to go and take on a new store system. We always know that it's a high bar, right. So they have to see some really unique value, like how is this going to help? Right. And today that value is I want to spend less time looking down at the storage and more time looking up at the apps, that's how we're working together. Right. And how vVols fits into that, you know, with the VMware Cloud Foundation, it's the hype that hybrid cloud offering really gives customers that future-proofing right. And the degrees of freedom they're most likely to exercise. >>Right. Well, let's close with a, kind of a glimpse of the future. What do you see as the future of the data center specifically, and also your, your collaborations Lee? Why don't you start? >>I think what we hope to be true is turning out to be true. So, you know, if you've looked at the, you know, what's happening in the cloud, not everything is migrating in the cloud, but the public cloud, for example, and I'm talking about public cloud there. The public cloud offers some really interesting, unique value and VMware is doing really interesting things about like DR as a service and other things, right? So we're helping customers tap into that at the same time. Right. We're seeing that the on-prem investment is not stalling at all because of data sovereignty because of bandwidth limitations. Right. And because of really the economics of what it means to rent versus buy. And so, you know, partnering with  leaders on, in storage, right, is a core part of our strategy going forward. And we're looking forward to doing more right with Infinidat, as we see VCF evolve, as we see new applications, including container based applications running on our platform, lots of futures, right. As the pace of application change, you know, doesn't slow down. >>So what do you see for the next 10 years for Infinidat? >>Yeah, well, um, we, I appreciated your introduction because of this speak to sort of the core characteristics of Infinidat. And I think a company like us and at our, at our juncture of evolution, it's important to know exactly who you are. And we clearly are focused in that on-prem hybrid data center environment. We want to be the storage tier that companies use to build their clouds. And, uh, the partnership with VMware, uh, we talked about the Venn diagram. I think it just could not be more complimentary. And so we're certainly going to continue to focus on VMware as our largest and most consequential Alliance partner for our business going forward. Um, I'm excited about, about the data center landscape going forward. I think it's going to continue to ebb and flow. We'll see growth in distributed architectures. We'll see growth at the edge in the core data center. >>I think the, the old, the old days where customers would buy a storage system for a application environment, um, those days are over, it's all about consolidating multiple apps and thousands of users on a single platform. And to do that, you have to be really good at, uh, at a lot of things that we are very good at. Our, our strategy going forward is to evolve as media evolves, but never stray far from what has made Infinidat unique and special and highly differentiated in the marketplace. I think the work that VMware is doing and in Kubernetes >>Is very exciting. We're starting to see that really pick up in our business as well. So as we think about, um, uh, you know, not only staying relevant, but keeping very contemporary with application workloads, you know, we have some very small amount of customers that still do some bare metal, but predominantly as I said, 90% or above is VMware infrastructure. Uh, but we also see, uh, Kubernetes, our CSI driver works well with the VMware suite above it. Uh, so that, that complimentary relationship we see extending forward as, as the application environment evolves. Great, thank you. You know, many years ago when I attended my first, uh, VMworld, the practitioners that were there, you talked to them, half the conversations, they were complaining about storage and how it was so complicated and you needed guys in lab coats to solve problems. And, you know, VMware really has done a great job, publishing the APIs and encouraging the ecosystem. And so if you're a practitioner you're interested in how vVols and Infinidat and VMware were kind of raising the bar and on petabyte scale, there's some good blogs out there. Check out the Virtual Blocks blog for more information, guys. Thanks so much great to have you in the program. Really appreciate it. Thanks so much. Thank you for watching this Cube conversation, Dave Vellante. We'll see you next time.

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is a CUBE conversation. >> Hey, welcome back everybody. Jeff Frick here with the CUBE, coming to you from our Palo Alto studios today for a CUBE conversation. we've got a couple of a CUBE alumni veterans who've been on a lot of times. They've got some exciting announcements to tell us today, so we're excited to jump into it, So let's go. First we're joined by Eric Herzog. He's the CMO and VP worldwide storage channels for IBM Storage, made his time on theCUBE Eric, great to see you. >> Great, thanks very much for having us today. >> Jeff: Absolutely. And joining him, I think all the way from North Carolina, Sam Werner, the VP of, and offering manager business line executive storage for IBM. Sam, great to see you as well. >> Great to be here, thank you. >> Absolutely. So let's jump into it. So Sam you're in North Carolina, I think that's where the Red Hat people are. You guys have Red Hat, a lot of conversations about containers, containers are going nuts. We know containers are going nuts and it was Docker and then Kubernetes. And really a lot of traction. Wonder if you can reflect on, on what you see from your point of view and how that impacts what you guys are working on. >> Yeah, you know, it's interesting. We talk, everybody hears about containers constantly. Obviously it's a hot part of digital transformation. What's interesting about it though is most of those initiatives are being driven out of business lines. I spend a lot of time with the people who do infrastructure management, particularly the storage teams, the teams that have to support all of that data in the data center. And they're struggling to be honest with you. These initiatives are coming at them, from application developers and they're being asked to figure out how to deliver the same level of SLAs the same level of performance, governance, security recovery times, availability. And it's a scramble for them to be quite honest they're trying to figure out how to automate their storage. They're trying to figure out how to leverage the investments they've made as they go through a digital transformation and keep in mind, a lot of these initiatives are accelerating right now because of this global pandemic we're living through. I don't know that the strategy's necessarily changed, but there's been an acceleration. So all of a sudden these storage people kind of trying to get up to speed or being thrown right into the mix. So we're working directly with them. You'll see, in some of our announcements, we're helping them, you know, get on that journey and provide the infrastructure their teams need. >> And a lot of this is driven by multicloud and hybrid cloud, which we're seeing, you know, a really aggressive move to before it was kind of this rush to public cloud. And that everybody figured out, "Well maybe public cloud isn't necessarily right for everything." And it's kind of this horses for courses, if you will, with multicloud and hybrid cloud, another kind of complexity thrown into the storage mix that you guys have to deal with. >> Yeah, and that's another big challenge. Now in the early days of cloud, people were lifting and shifting applications trying to get lower capex. And they were also starting to deploy DevOps, in the public cloud in order to improve agility. And what they found is there were a lot of challenges with that, where they thought lifting and shifting an application will lower their capital costs the TCO actually went up significantly. Where they started building new applications in the cloud. They found they were becoming trapped there and they couldn't get the connectivity they needed back into their core applications. So now we're at this point where they're trying to really, transform the rest of it and they're using containers, to modernize the rest of the infrastructure and complete the digital transformation. They want to get into a hybrid cloud environment. What we found is, enterprises get two and a half X more value out of the IT when they use a hybrid multicloud infrastructure model versus an all public cloud model. So what they're trying to figure out is how to piece those different components together. So you need a software-driven storage infrastructure that gives you the flexibility, to deploy in a common way and automate in a common way, both in a public cloud but on premises and give you that flexibility. And that's what we're working on at IBM and with our colleagues at Red Hat. >> So Eric, you've been in the business a long time and you know, it's amazing as it just continues to evolve, continues to evolve this kind of unsexy thing under the covers called storage, which is so foundational. And now as data has become, you know, maybe a liability 'cause I have to buy a bunch of storage. Now it is the core asset of the company. And in fact a lot of valuations on a lot of companies is based on its value, that's data and what they can do. So clearly you've got a couple of aces in the hole you always do. So tell us what you guys are up to at IBM to take advantage of the opportunity. >> Well, what we're doing is we are launching, a number of solutions for various workloads and applications built with a strong container element. For example, a number of solutions about modern data protection cyber resiliency. In fact, we announced last year almost a year ago actually it's only a year ago last week, Sam and I were on stage, and one of our developers did a demo of us protecting data in a container environment. So now we're extending that beyond what we showed a year ago. We have other solutions that involve what we do with AI big data and analytic applications, that are in a container environment. What if I told you, instead of having to replicate and duplicate and have another set of storage right with the OpenShift Container configuration, that you could connect to an existing external exabyte class data lake. So that not only could your container apps get to it, but the existing apps, whether they'll be bare-metal or virtualized, all of them could get to the same data lake. Wow, that's a concept saving time, saving money. One pool of storage that'll work for all those environments. And now that containers are being deployed in production, that's something we're announcing as well. So we've got a lot of announcements today across the board. Most of which are container and some of which are not, for example, LTO-9, the latest high performance and high capacity tape. We're announcing some solutions around there. But the bulk of what we're announcing today, is really on what IBM is doing to continue to be the leader in container storage support. >> And it's great, 'cause you talked about a couple of very specific applications that we hear about all the time. One obviously on the big data and analytics side, you know, as that continues to do, to kind of chase history of honor of ultimately getting the right information to the right people at the right time so they can make the right decision. And the other piece you talked about was business continuity and data replication, and to bring people back. And one of the hot topics we've talked to a lot of people about now is kind of this shift in a security threat around ransomware. And the fact that these guys are a little bit more sophisticated and will actually go after your backup before they let you know that they're into your primary storage. So these are two, really important market areas that we could see continue activity, as all the people that we talk to every day. You must be seeing the same thing. >> Absolutely we are indeed. You know, containers are the wave. I'm a native California and I'm coming to you from Silicon Valley and you don't fight the wave, you ride it. So at IBM we're doing that. We've been the leader in container storage. We, as you know, way back when we invented the hard drive, which is the foundation of almost this entire storage industry and we were responsible for that. So we're making sure that as container is the coming wave that we are riding that in and doing the right things for our customers, for our channel partners that support those customers, whether they be existing customers, and obviously, with this move to containers, is going to be some people searching for probably a new vendor. And that's something that's going to go right into our wheelhouse because of the things we're doing. And some of our capabilities, for example, with our FlashSystems, with our Spectrum Virtualize, we're actually going to be able to support CSI snapshots not only for IBM Storage, but our Spectrum Virtualize products supports over 500 different arrays, most of which aren't ours. So if you got that old EMC VNX2 or that HPE, 3PAR or aNimble or all kinds of other storage, if you need CSI snapshot support, you can get it from IBM, with our Spectrum Virtualize software that runs on our FlashSystems, which of course cuts capex and opex, in a heterogeneous environment, but gives them that advanced container support that they don't get, because they're on older product from, you know, another vendor. We're making sure that we can pull our storage and even our competitor storage into the world of containers and do it in the right way for the end user. >> That's great. Sam, I want to go back to you and talk about the relationship with the Red Hat. I think it was about a year ago, I don't have my notes in front of me, when IBM purchased Red Hat. Clearly you guys have been working very closely together. What does that mean for you? You've been in the business for a long time. You've been at IBM for a long time, to have a partner you know, kind of embed with you, with Red Hat and bringing some of their capabilities into your portfolio. >> It's been an incredible experience, and I always say my friends at Red Hat because we spend so much time together. We're looking at now, leveraging a community that's really on the front edge of this movement to containers. They bring that, along with their experience around storage and containers, along with the years and years of enterprise class storage delivery that we have in the IBM Storage portfolio. And we're bringing those pieces together. And this is a case of truly one plus one equals three. And you know, an example you'll see in this announcement is the integration of our data protection portfolio with their container native storage. We allow you to in any environment, take a snapshot of that data. You know, this move towards modern data protection is all about a movement to doing data protection in a different way which is about leveraging snapshots, taking instant copies of data that are application aware, allowing you to reuse and mount that data for different purposes, be able to protect yourself from ransomware. Our data protection portfolio has industry leading ransomware protection and detection in it. So we'll actually detect it before it becomes a problem. We're taking that, industry leading data protection software and we are integrating it into Red Hat, Container Native Storage, giving you the ability to solve one of the biggest challenges in this digital transformation which is backing up your data. Now that you're moving towards, stateful containers and persistent storage. So that's one area we're collaborating. We're working on ensuring that our storage arrays, that Eric was talking about, that they integrate tightly with OpenShift and that they also work again with, OpenShift Container Storage, the Cloud Native Storage portfolio from, Red Hat. So we're bringing these pieces together. And on top of that, we're doing some really, interesting things with licensing. We allow you to consume the Red Hat Storage portfolio along with the IBM software-defined Storage portfolio under a single license. And you can deploy the different pieces you need, under one single license. So you get this ultimate investment protection and ability to deploy anywhere. So we're, I think we're adding a lot of value for our customers and helping them on this journey. >> Yeah Eric, I wonder if you could share your perspective on multicloud management. I know that's a big piece of what you guys are behind and it's a big piece of kind of the real world as we've kind of gotten through the hype and now we're into production, and it is a multicloud world and it is, you got to manage this stuff it's all over the place. I wonder if you could speak to kind of how that challenge you know, factors into your design decisions and how you guys are about, you know, kind of the future. >> Well we've done this in a couple of ways in things that are coming out in this launch. First of all, IBM has produced with a container-centric model, what they call the Multicloud Manager. It's the IBM Cloud Pak for multicloud management. That product is designed to manage multiple clouds not just the IBM Cloud, but Amazon, Azure, et cetera. What we've done is taken our Spectrum Protect Plus and we've integrated it into the multicloud manager. So what that means, to save time, to save money and make it easier to use, when the customer is in the multicloud manager, they can actually select Spectrum Protect Plus, launch it and then start to protect data. So that's one thing we've done in this launch. The other thing we've done is integrate the capability of IBM Spectrum Virtualize, running in a FlashSystem to also take the capability of supporting OCP, the OpenShift Container Platform in a Clustered environment. So what we can do there, is on-premise, if there really was an earthquake in Silicon Valley right now, that OpenShift is sitting on a server. The servers just got crushed by the roof when it caved in. So you want to make sure you've got disaster recovery. So what we can do is take that OpenShift Container Platform Cluster, we can support it with our Spectrum Virtualize software running on our FlashSystem, just like we can do heterogeneous storage that's not ours, in this case, we're doing it with Red Hat. And then what we can do is to provide disaster recovery and business continuity to different cloud vendors not just to IBM Cloud, but to several cloud vendors. We can give them the capability of replicating and protecting that Cluster to a cloud configuration. So if there really was an earthquake, they could then go to the cloud, they could recover that Red Hat Cluster, to a different data center and run it on-prem. So we're not only doing the integration with a multicloud manager, which is multicloud-centric allowing ease of use with our Spectrum Protect Plus, but incase of a really tough situation of fire in a data center, earthquake, hurricane, whatever, the Red Hat OpenShift Cluster can be replicated out to a cloud, with our Spectrum Virtualize Software. So in most, in both cases, multicloud examples because in the first one of course the multicloud manager is designed and does support multiple clouds. In the second example, we support multiple clouds where our Spectrum Virtualize for public clouds software so you can take that OpenShift Cluster replicate it and not just deal with one cloud vendor but with several. So showing that multicloud management is important and then leverage that in this launch with a very strong element of container centricity. >> Right >> Yeah, I just want to add, you know, and I'm glad you brought that up Eric, this whole multicloud capability with, the Spectrum Virtualize. And I could see the same for our Spectrum Scale Family, which is our storage infrastructure for AI and big data. We actually, in this announcement have containerized the client making it very simple to deploy in Kubernetes Cluster. But one of the really special things about Spectrum Scale is it's active file management. This allows you to build out a file system not only on-premises for your, Kubernetes Cluster but you can actually extend that to a public cloud and it automatically will extend the file system. If you were to go into a public cloud marketplace which it's available in more than one, you can go in there click deploy, for example, in AWS Marketplace, click deploy it will deploy your Spectrum Scale Cluster. You've now extended your file system from on-prem into the cloud. If you need to access any of that data, you can access it and it will automatically cash you on locally and we'll manage all the file access for you. >> Yeah, it's an interesting kind of paradox between, you know, kind of the complexity of what's going on in the back end, but really trying to deliver simplicity on the front end. Again, this ultimate goal of getting the right data to the right person at the right time. You just had a blog post Eric recently, that you talked about every piece of data isn't equal. And I think it's really highlighted in this conversation we just had about recovery and how you prioritize and how you, you know, think about, your data because you know, the relative value of any particular piece might be highly variable, which should drive the way that you treated in your system. So I wonder if you can speak a little bit, you know, to helping people think about data in the right way. As you know, they both have all their operational data which they've always had, but now they've got all this unstructured data that's coming in like crazy and all data isn't created equal, as you said. And if there is an earthquake or there is a ransomware attack, you need to be smart about what you have available to bring back quickly. And maybe what's not quite so important. >> Well, I think the key thing, let me go to, you know a modern data protection term. These are two very technical terms was, one is the recovery time. How long does it take you to get that data back? And the second one is the recovery point, at what point in time, are you recovering the data from? And the reason those are critical, is when you look at your datasets, whether you replicate, you snap, you do a backup. The key thing you've got to figure out is what is my recovery time? How long is it going to take me? What's my recovery point. Obviously in certain industries you want to recover as rapidly as possible. And you also want to have the absolute most recent data. So then once you know what it takes you to do that, okay from an RPO and an RTO perspective, recovery point objective, recovery time objective. Once you know that, then you need to look at your datasets and look at what does it take to run the company if there really was a fire and your data center was destroyed. So you take a look at those datasets, you see what are the ones that I need to recover first, to keep the company up and rolling. So let's take an example, the sales database or the support database. I would say those are pretty critical to almost any company, whether you'd be a high-tech company, whether you'd be a furniture company, whether you'd be a delivery company. However, there also is probably a database of assets. For example, IBM is a big company. We have buildings all over, well, guess what? We don't lease a chair or a table or a whiteboard. We buy them. Those are physical assets that the company has to pay, you know, do write downs on and all this other stuff, they need to track it. If we close a building, we need to move the desk to another building. Like even if we leasing a building now, the furniture is ours, right? So does an asset database need to be recovered instantaneously? Probably not. So we should focus on another thing. So let's say on a bank. Banks are both online and brick and mortar. I happened to be a Wells Fargo person. So guess what? There's Wells Fargo banks, two of them in the city I'm in, okay? So, the assets of the money, in this case now, I don't think the brick and mortar of the building of Wells Fargo or their desks in there but now you're talking financial assets or their high velocity trading apps. Those things need to be recovered almost instantaneously. And that's what you need to do when you're looking at datasets, is figure out what's critical to the business to keep it up and rolling, what's the next most critical. And you do it in basically the way you would tear anything. What's the most important thing, what's the next most important thing. It doesn't matter how you approach your job, how you used to approach school, what are the classes I have to get an A and what classes can I not get an A and depending on what your major was, all that sort of stuff, you're setting priorities, right? And the dataset, since data is the most critical asset of any company, whether it's a Global Fortune 500 or whether it's Herzog Cigar Store, all of those assets, that data is the most valuable. So you've got to make sure, recover what you need as rapidly as you need it. But you can't recover all of it. You just, there's just no way to do that. So that's why you really ranked the importance of the data to use sameware, with malware and ransomware. If you have a malware or ransomware attack, certain data you need to recover as soon as you can. So if there, for example, as a, in fact there was one Jeff, here in Silicon Valley as well. You've probably read about the University of California San Francisco, ended up having to pay over a million dollars of ransom because some of the data related to COVID research University of California, San Francisco, it was the health care center for the University of California in Northern California. They are working on COVID and guess what? The stuff was held for ransom. They had no choice, but to pay them. And they really did pay, this is around end of June, of this year. So, okay, you don't really want to do that. >> Jeff: Right >> So you need to look at everything from malware and ransomware, the importance of the data. And that's how you figure this stuff out, whether be in a container environment, a traditional environment or virtualized environment. And that's why data protection is so important. And with this launch, not only are we doing the data protection we've been doing for years, but now taking it to the heart of the new wave, which is the wave of containers. >> Yeah, let me add just quickly on that Eric. So think about those different cases you talked about. You're probably going to want for your mission critically. You're going to want snapshots of that data that can be recovered near instantaneously. And then, for some of your data, you might decide you want to store it out in cloud. And with Spectrum Protect, we just announced our ability to now store data out in Google cloud. In addition to, we already supported AWS Azure IBM Cloud, in various on-prem object stores. So we already provided that capability. And then we're in this announcement talking about LTL-9. And you got to also be smart about which data do you need to keep, according to regulation for long periods of time, or is it just important to archive? You're not going to beat the economics nor the safety of storing data out on tape. But like Eric said, if all of your data is out on tape and you have an event, you're not going to be able to restore it quickly enough at least the mission critical things. And so those are the things that need to be in snapshot. And that's one of the main things we're announcing here for Kubernetes environments is the ability to quickly snapshot application aware backups, of your mission critical data in your Kubernetes environments. It can very quickly to be recovered. >> That's good. So I'll give you the last word then we're going to sign off, we are out of time, but I do want to get this in it's 2020, if I didn't ask the COVID question, I would be in big trouble. So, you know, you've all seen the memes and the jokes about really COVID being an accelerant to digital transformation, not necessarily change, but certainly a huge accelerant. I mean, you guys have a, I'm sure a product roadmap that's baked pretty far and advanced, but I wonder if you can speak to, you know, from your perspective, as COVID has accelerated digital transformation you guys are so foundational to executing that, you know, kind of what is it done in terms of what you're seeing with your customers, you know, kind of the demand and how you're seeing this kind of validation as to an accelerant to move to these better types of architectures? Let's start with you Sam. >> Yeah, you know I, and I think i said this, but I mean the strategy really hasn't changed for the enterprises, but of course it is accelerating it. And I see storage teams more quickly getting into trouble, trying to solve some of these challenges. So we're working closely with them. They're looking for more automation. They have less people in the data center on-premises. They're looking to do more automation simplify the management of the environment. We're doing a lot around Ansible to help them with that. We're accelerating our roadmaps around that sort of integration and automation. They're looking for better visibility into their environments. So we've made a lot of investments around our storage insights SaaS platform, that allows them to get complete visibility into their data center and not just in their data center. We also give them visibility to the stores they're deploying in the cloud. So we're making it easier for them to monitor and manage and automate their storage infrastructure. And then of course, if you look at everything we're doing in this announcement, it's about enabling our software and our storage infrastructure to integrate directly into these new Kubernetes, initiatives. That way as this digital transformation accelerates and application developers are demanding more and more Kubernetes capabilities. They're able to deliver the same SLAs and the same level of security and the same level of governance, that their customers expect from them, but in this new world. So that's what we're doing. If you look at our announcement, you'll see that across, across the sets of capabilities that we're delivering here. >> Eric, we'll give you the last word, and then we're going to go to Eric Cigar Shop, as soon as this is over. (laughs) >> So it's clearly all about storage made simple, in a Kubernetes environment, in a container environment, whether it's block storage, file storage, whether it be object storage and IBM's goal is to offer ever increasing sophisticated services for the enterprise at the same time, make it easier and easier to use and to consume. If you go back to the old days, the storage admins manage X amount of gigabytes, maybe terabytes. Now the same admin is managing 10 petabytes of data. So the data explosion is real across all environments, container environments, even old bare-metal. And of course the not quite so new anymore virtualized environments. The admins need to manage that more and more easily and automated point and click. Use AI based automated tiering. For example, we have with our Easy Tier technology, that automatically moves data when it's hot to the fastest tier. And when it's not as hot, it's cool, it pushes down to a slower tier, but it's all automated. You point and you click. Let's take our migration capabilities. We built it into our software. I buy a new array, I need to migrate the data. You point, you click, and we automatic transparent migration in the background on the fly without taking the servers or the storage down. And we always favor the application workload. So if the application workload is heavy at certain times a day, we slow the migration. At night for sake of argument, If it's a company that is not truly 24 by seven, you know, heavily 24 by seven, and at night, it slows down, we accelerate the migration. All about automation. We've done it with Ansible, here in this launch, we've done it with additional integration with other platforms. So our Spectrum Scale for example, can use the OpenShift management framework to configure and to grow our Spectrum Scale or elastic storage system clusters. We've done it, in this case with our Spectrum Protect Plus, as you saw integration into the multicloud manager. So for us, it's storage made simple, incredibly new features all the time, but at the same time we do that, make sure that it's easier and easier to use. And in some cases like with Ansible, not even the real storage people, but God forbid, that DevOps guy messes with a storage and loses that data, wow. So by, if you're using something like Ansible and that Ansible framework, we make sure that essentially the DevOps guy, the test guy, the analytics guy, basically doesn't lose the data and screw up the storage. And that's a big, big issue. So all about storage made simple, in the right way with incredible enterprise features that essentially we make easy and easy to use. We're trying to make everything essentially like your iPhone, that easy to use. That's the goal. And with a lot less storage admins in the world then there has been an incredible storage growth every single year. You'd better make it easy for the same person to manage all that storage. 'Cause it's not shrinking. It is, someone who's sitting at 50 petabytes today, is 150 petabytes the next year and five years from now, they'll be sitting on an exabyte of production data, and they're not going to hire tons of admins. It's going to be the same two or four people that were doing the work. Now they got to manage an exabyte, which is why this storage made simplest is such a strong effort for us with integration, with the Open, with the Kubernetes frameworks or done with OpenShift, heck, even what we used to do in the old days with vCenter Ops from VMware, VASA, VAAI, all those old VMware tools, we made sure tight integration, easy to use, easy to manage, but sophisticated features to go with that. Simplicity is really about how you manage storage. It's not about making your storage dumb. People want smarter and smarter storage. Do you make it smarter, but you make it just easy to use at the same time. >> Right. >> Well, great summary. And I don't think I could do a better job. So I think we'll just leave it right there. So congratulations to both of you and the teams for these announcement after a whole lot of hard work and sweat went in, over the last little while and continued success. And thanks for the, check in, always great to see you. >> Thank you. We love being on theCUBE as always. >> All right, thanks again. All right, he's Eric, he was Sam, I'm I'm Jeff, you're watching theCUBE. We'll see you next time, thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: From around the globe, It's theCube, with digital coverage, of Actifio data-driven 2020, brought to you by Actifio. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman, and this is theCube coverage of Actifio Data-driven 2020. Really excited to, dig into a fun topic. I have a Cube alumni with us he is a DevOps author, and researcher Gene Kim. Unicorn Project is the most recent, Gene, great to see you, thanks so much for joining us. >> Stu, great to see you again, here at the Actifio conference, this is all fantastic. >> Yeah, so your new book, it was much awaited out there, you know, Unicorn's always discussed out there, but you know, the Phoenix Project, as I said, is really this seminal, book when people say, What is that DevOps thing and how do I do it? So, why don't you give us a little bit as to The Unicorn Project, why is it important? Why we're excited to dig into this and, we'll, we'll tie it into the discussion we're having here for the next normal, at Actifio. >> For sure, yeah, in fact, yeah. As you might have heard in the keynote address, you know, the what, what vexed me, after the Phoenix project came out in 2013 is that there is still looming problems that still remain, seven years after the Phoenix project was written. And, you know, these problems I think are very important, around you and what does it really take to enable developers to truly be productive, instead of being locked in a tundra of technical debt. Two is, you know, how do we unlock truly the power of data so that we can help everyone make better decisions, whether it's a developer, or anyone, within the business units and the organizations that we serve. And then three is like, what are really the behaviors that we need from leadership to make these amazing transformations possible? And so The Unicorn Project really is, the fifth project retold, but instead of through the eyes of Ops leadership, is told through the eyes, of a phenomenal developer. And so it was amazing to revisit the, the Phoenix project universe, I in the same timeline, but told from a different point of view. And it was such a fun project to work on, just because, you know, to relive the story, and just expose all these other problems, not happening, not on the side, but from, the development and data side. >> Yeah. They've always these characters in there that, I know I personally, and many people I talked to can, you know, really associate with, there was a return of certain characters, quite prominent, like Brent, you know, don't be the bottleneck in your system. It's great, if you're a fighter firefighter, and can solve everything, but if everything has to come through you, you know, Pedro is always going off, he's getting no sleep and, you know, you'd just get stressed out. You talked a bit more, about the organization and there are the five ideals in the book. So maybe if you can, you know, strongly recommend, of course, anybody at ending active you, got a copy of the books they'll be able to read the whole thing, but, you know, give us the bumper sticker on some of those key learnings. >> Yeah, for sure, yeah. So the five ideals represents five ideas, I think are just very important, for everyone, the organization, serves, especially leadership. The first ideal is locality and simplicity. In other words, when you need to get something done, we should be able to get it done within our team, without having to do a lot of communication coordination, with people outside of our team. The worst, the most horrible feeling is that in order, to do a small little thing, you actually have, to have a, coordinated action that spans 15 teams, right. And that's why you can't get anything done, right? And so that's so much the hallmark of large complex organizations. The second ideal is that what I think the outcomes are, which is focused flow and joy, you know, I've not just now started to for the first time in 20 years, self identify, not as an ops person, but as a developer. And, I really now understand, why we got into technology in the first place. This so that we can solve the business problem at hand unencumbered by minute share. And that allows for a sense of focus flow and even joy. And I love how Dr. Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, describe it. He said, flow is a state that we feel when we love our work, so much that we lose track of time, and maybe even sense of self. And so I think we all in technology understand, you know, that that is how it is on the best of days and how terrible it is, you know, when we don't have that sense of flow. Third ideal is improvement of daily work, being even more important than daily work itself. The notion is greatness is never free, we must create it and must prioritize it, for the psychological safety. And the fifth is customer focus. So those are all the things I think are so important, for modern leaders, because it really defines the future of work. >> Yeah, we love that flow and it happens otherwise we're stuck, in that waiting place as you quoted Dr. Csi. So one of my favorite books there, there also. So Gene, for this audience here, there was, you know, yes, CICD is wonderful and I need to be able to move and ship fast, but the real transformational power, for that organization was unlocking the value of data, which is, I think something that everybody here can. So maybe to talk a little bit about that you know, we, there there's, we've almost talked too much, you know, data is the new oil and things like that, but it's that, you know, that allowing everybody to tap in and leverage, you know, real time what's happening there were just at the early parts of the industry being able to unlock that future. >> Oh yeah, I love that phrase. Data is new oil, especially since oil, you know, the last 50 years, the standard Port 500 was dominated by, you know, resource extraction oil company and so forth. And now that is no longer true, it's dominated by the tech giants. And, Columbia there was a Columbia journalism review article that said, data's not only the new oil, is really the new soil. And for me, you know, my area of passion for the last seven years has been studying the DevOps enterprise community where, we're taking all the learnings that were really pioneered by the tech giants, Facebook, Amazon, Netflix, Google, Microsoft, and seeing how they're being adopted by the largest, most complex organizations on the planet, the best known brands across every industry vertical. And it's so true that, you know, where the real learning gets exploited right, is through data. I realized, this is how we get to know our customers better. This is how we understand their wants and needs. This is how we test, and make offers to them to see if they like it or not to see if they value it or not. And, and so for me, one of the best examples, of this was, the target transformation and Adidas how it was just an amazing example of, to what links they went to, to liberate developers from, being shackled by ancient systems of records, data warehouses, and truly enabled developers to get access to the data they need modify it, even delete information, all without having to be dependent on, you know, integration teams that were essentially holding them hostage for six to nine months. And, these programs really enable some of the most strategic programs at their organizations, you know, enabling hundreds of projects over the years. So, I think that is really, just showing to what extent, the value that is created by unlocking data for individuals. And sorry Stu, one more thing that I'm just always dazzled by my friend, Chris Berg. He told me that, somewhere between a third and a half of all company employees use data in their daily work. They either use data or manipulate data as part of the daily work, which, you know, that, population is actually larger than the number of developers in an organization. So it just shows you how big this problem is, and how much value we can create by addressing this problem. >> Well, it's interesting if it's only a third, we still have work to do. What we've been saying for years is, you know, when you talk about digital transformation, the thing that separates those that have transformed and those that haven't is data needs to be at the core. I just can't be doing things the way I was or doing things off intuition, you know, being data-driven, I'm sure you know, the same Gene, if you're not, if you don't have data, you know, you're just some other person with an opinion. >> Yeah, yeah. That's it this is a great point. And in Risto Siilasmaa's amazing book, Transforming Nokia, I mean, he was, he said exactly that. And he said something that was even more astonishing. He said, there's not only at the core, but data also has to be at the edges. You know, he was describing at Amazon, anyone can do an experiment @booking.com. Anyone can do an experiment to see, if they can create value for the customer. They don't need approvals from, committees or their manager. This is something that is really truly part of everyone's daily work. And so, to me, that was a huge aha moment that says, you know, to what degree, you know. Our cultures need to change so that we can not only, use data, but also create learnings and create new data, you know, that the rest of the organization can learn from as well. >> Yeah. One of the other things I definitely, you know, felt in your book, you synthesize so much of the learnings that you've had over the years from like the DevOps enterprise summit. The question I have for you is, you know, you hear some of these, you know, great stories, but the question is, our companies, are they moving fast enough? Have they transformed the entire business or have they taken, you know, we've got one slice of the business that is kind of modernized and we're going to get to the other 30 pieces along the way, but you know, there's wholesale change, you know, 2020 has had such a big impact. What's your thoughts on, you know, how we are doing in the enterprise on pace of change these days? >> That's a great question. I mean, I think some people, when they ask me, you know, how far are we into kind of total adoption of DevOps? It's a newer better way of working. And I would say probably somewhere between 5 and 7%, right, and the math I would take them through is, you know, there are about 20 million developers on the planet of which at best, I think, a million of them are working in a DevOps type way. But yet now that's only growing. I think it was an amazing presentation at DevOps surprise summit in London that was virtual from nationwide building society, the largest organization of its kind. It's a large financially mutually owned organization for housing in the UK. And, they touched about how, you know, post COVID post lockdown suddenly they found themselves able to do them reckless things that would have normally taken four years, in four weeks. And I think that's what almost every organization is learning these days is, when survival is at stake, you know, we can throw the rules out of the window, right. And do things in a way that are safe and responsible, but, you know, create satisfy the business urgent needs, like, you know, provisioning tens of thousand people to work from home safely. You know, I think the shows, I think it's such a powerful proof point of what technology can do when it is unleashed from, you know, perhaps unnecessarily burdensome rules and process. And I think the other point I would make Stu is that, what has been so rewarding is the population of these technology leaders presenting at DevOps enterprise, they're all being promoted, they're all being, being given new responsibilities because they, are demonstrating that they have the best longterm interest of the organization at heart. And, they're being given even more responsibilities because, to make a bigger impact through the organization. So I'm incredibly optimistic about the direction we're heading and even the pace we're going at. >> Well, Gene definitely 2020 has put a real highlight on how fast things have changed, not just work from home, but, but the homeschooling, you know, telehealth, there are so many things out there where there was no choice, but to move forward. So the, the second presentation you participated in was talking about that next normal. So give us a little bit of, you know, what does that mean? You know, what, what we should be looking at going forward? >> Yeah, it was great to catch up with my friend Paul Forte, who I've known for many, many years, and now, now a VP of sales at the Actifio and yeah, I think it is amazing that academic Dr. Colada Perez, she said, you know, in every turning point, you know, where, there's such a the stage for decades of economic prosperity usually comes, by something exactly like what we're going through now, a huge economic recession or depression, following a period of intense re regulations there's new, technology that's unlocking, you know, new ways of working. And she pointed exactly to what's happening in the Covid pandemic in terms of, how much, the way we're working is being revolutionized, not by choice, but out of necessity. And, you know, as she said, you know, we're now learning to what degree we can actually do our daily work without getting on airplanes or, you know, meeting people in person. So, I'm a hue, I have so many friends in the travel industry, right. I think we all want normalcy to return, but I think we are learning, you know, potentially, you know, there are more efficient ways to do things, that don't require a day of travel for a couple hour meeting and day to return, right. So, yeah, I think this is being demonstrated. I think this will unlock a whole bunch of ways of interacting that will create efficiency. So I don't think we're going, as you suggested, right. There will be a new normal, but the new normal is not going to be the same as your old normal. And I think it will be, in general for the better. >> So, Gene, you, you've gone to gotten to see some of the transformation happening in the organizations when it comes to developers, you know, the, the DevOps enterprise summit, the, the state of DevOps, you know. I think five years ago, we knew how important developers were, but there was such a gap between, well, the developers are kind of in the corner, they don't pay for anything. They're not tied to the enterprise. And today it feels like we have a more cohesive story that there, there is that if you put in The Unicorn Project, it's, you know, business and IT, you know. IT, and the developers can actually drive that change and the survival of the business. So, you know, are we there yet success or net developers now have a seat at the table? Or, you know, what do you see on that, that we still need to do? >> Yeah, I think we're still, I mean, I think we're getting there, we're closer than ever. And as my friend, Chris O'Malley the CEO of the famously resurgent mainframe vendor Compuware said, you know, it is, everyone is aware that you can't do any major initiatives these days without some investment in technology, right? In fact, you can't invest in anything without technology. So I think that is now better understood than ever. And, yeah, just the digital, it's a whole digital disruption, I think is really, no one needs to be convinced that if we organize large complex organizations, don't change, they're at a risk of, you know, being decimated by the organizations that can change using an exploiting technology, you know, to their benefit and to the other person's detriment. So, and that primarily comes through software and who creates software developers. So I, by the way, I love the Stripe it was a CFO for Stripe who said, the largest, constraint for them is, and their peers is not access to capital, it is access development talent. I think when you have CFOs talking like that, right. It does says it's suggested something really has changed in the economic environment that we all compete in. >> So, I mentioned that on the research side, one of the things I've loved reading over the years is that, fundamental discussion that, going faster does not mean, that I am sacrificing security, or, you know, the product itself, you know, in the last couple of years, it's, you know, what separates those really high performing companies, and, you know, just kind of the middle of the ground. So, what, what, what advice would you give out there, to make sure that I'm moving my company more along to those high performing methods. >> Yeah, but just to resonate with that, I was interviewing a friend of mine, Mike Nygaard, long time friend of mine, and we were talking on and we were recalling the first time we both heard the famous 2009 presentation doing 10 deploys a day, every day at flicker, by John Allspaw and Paul Hammond. And we were both incredulous, right there? We thought it was irresponsible reckless, and maybe even immoral what they were doing, because, you know, I think most organizations were doing three a year, and that was very problematic. How could one do 10 deploys a day. And I think, what we now know, with the size of evidence, especially through the state of DevOps research, is that, you know, for six years, 35,000 plus respondents, the only way that you can be reliable, and secure, is to do smaller deployments more frequently, right? It makes you, be able to respond quicker in the marketplace, allows you to have better stability and reliability in the operational environment, allows you to be more secure. It allows you to be able to, you know, increase market share, increase productivity, and, you know, have happier employees. So, you know, at this point, I think the research is so decisive, that, you know, we can, as a whole book accelerate, that really makes the case for that, that this is something that I now have moral certainty or even absolute certainty oh, right. It's, you know, self evident to me, and it, I think we should have confidence that that really is true. >> Wonderful work, Gene, thanks so much for giving us the update. I really appreciate it, some really good sessions here in Actifio, as well as the book. Thanks so much, great to talk to you. >> Stu is always a pleasure to see you again, and thank you so much. >> Alright, that's our coverage from Actifio Data-driven, be sure to check out thecube.net for all of the, on demand content, as well as, as I said, if you were part of the show, definitely recommend reading Gene's book, The Unicorn Project. I'm Stu Miniman. And thank you for watching the cube. (soft upbeat music)

>> Announcer: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is a CUBE conversation. >> Hi everyone. Welcome to this CUBE Conversation. I'm John Furrier host of theCUBE here in the CUBEs, Palo Alto studios during the COVID crisis. We're quarantine with our crew, but we got the remote interviews. Got two great guests here from Fortinet FortiGuard Labs, Derek Mankey, Chief Security Insights and global threat alliances at Fortinet FortiGuard Labs. And Aamir Lakhani who's the Lead Researcher for the FortiGuard Labs. You guys is great to see you. Derek, good to see you again, Aamir, good to meet you too. >> It's been a while and it happens so fast. >> It just seems was just the other day, Derek, we've done a couple of interviews in between a lot of flow coming out of Fortinet FortiGuard, a lot of action, certainly with COVID everyone's pulled back home, the bad actors taking advantage of the situation. The surface areas increased really is the perfect storm for security in terms of action, bad actors are at an all time high, new threats. Here's going on, take us through what you guys are doing. What's your team makeup look like? What are some of the roles and you guys are seeing on your team and how does that transcend to the market? >> Yeah, sure, absolutely. So you're right. I mean like I was saying earlier that is, this always happens fast and furious. We couldn't do this without a world class team at FortiGuard Labs. So we've grown our team now to over 235 globally. There's different rules within the team. If we look 20 years ago, the rules used to be just very pigeonholed into say antivirus analysis, right? Now we have to account for, when we're looking at threats, we have to look at that growing attack surface. We have to look at where are these threats coming from? How frequently are they hitting? What verticals are they hitting? What regions, what are the particular techniques, tactics, procedures? So we have threat. This is the world of threat intelligence, of course, contextualizing that information and it takes different skill sets on the backend. And a lot of people don't really realize the behind the scenes, what's happening. And there's a lot of magic happening, not only from what we talked about before in our last conversation from artificial intelligence and machine learning that we do at FortiGuard Labs and automation, but the people. And so today we want to focus on the people and talk about how on the backend we approached a particular threat, we're going to talk to the word ransom and ransomware, look at how we dissect threats, how correlate that, how we use tools in terms of threat hunting as an example, and then how we actually take that to that last mile and make it actionable so that customers are protected. I would share that information with keys, right, until sharing partners. But again, it comes down to the people. We never have enough people in the industry, there's a big shortage as we know, but it's a really key critical element. And we've been building these training programs for over a decade with them FortiGuard Labs. So, you know John, this to me is exactly why I always say, and I'm sure Aamir can share this too, that there's never a adult day in the office and all we hear that all the time. But I think today, all of you is really get an idea of why that is because it's very dynamic and on the backend, there's a lot of things that we're doing to get our hands dirty with this. >> You know the old expression startup plan Silicon Valley is if you're in the arena, that's where the action is. And it's different than sitting in the stands, watching the game. You guys are certainly in that arena and you got, we've talked and we cover your, the threat report that comes out frequently. But for the folks that aren't in the weeds on all the nuances of security, can you kind of give the 101 ransomware, what's going on? What's the state of the ransomware situation? Set the stage because that's still continues to be threat. I don't go a week, but I don't read a story about another ransomware. And then at least I hear they paid 10 million in Bitcoin or something like, I mean, this is real, that's a real ongoing threat. What is it? >> The (indistinct) quite a bit. But yeah. So I'll give sort of the 101 and then maybe we can pass it to Aamir who is on the front lines, dealing with this every day. You know if we look at the world of, I mean, first of all, the concept of ransom, obviously you have people that has gone extended way way before cybersecurity in the world of physical crime. So of course, the world's first ransom where a virus is actually called PC Cyborg. This is a 1989 around some payment that was demanded through P.O Box from the voters Panama city at the time, not too effective on floppiness, a very small audience, not a big attack surface. Didn't hear much about it for years. Really, it was around 2010 when we started to see ransomware becoming prolific. And what they did was, what cyber criminals did was shift on success from a fake antivirus software model, which was, popping up a whole bunch of, setting here, your computer's infected with 50 or 60 viruses, PaaS will give you an antivirus solution, which was of course fake. People started catching on, the giggles out people caught on to that. So they, weren't making a lot of money selling this fraudulent software, enter ransomware. And this is where ransomware, it really started to take hold because it wasn't optional to pay for this software. It was mandatory almost for a lot of people because they were losing their data. They couldn't reverse engineer that the encryption, couldn't decrypt it, but any universal tool. Ransomware today is very rigid. We just released our threat report for the first half of 2020. And we saw, we've seen things like master boot record, MVR, ransomware. This is persistent. It sits before your operating system, when you boot up your computer. So it's hard to get rid of it. Very strong public private key cryptography. So each victim is effective with the direct key, as an example, the list goes on and I'll save that for the demo today, but that's basically, it's just very, it's prolific. We're seeing shuts not only just ransomware attacks for data, we're now starting to see ransom for extortion, for targeted around some cases that are going after critical business. Essentially it's like a DoS holding revenue streams go ransom too. So the ransom demands are getting higher because of this as well. So it's complicated. >> Was mentioning Aamir, why don't you weigh in, I mean, 10 million is a lot. And we reported earlier in this month. Garmin was the company that was hacked, IT got completely locked down. They pay 10 million, Garmin makes all those devices. And as we know, this is impact and that's real numbers. I mean, it's not other little ones, but for the most part, it's nuance, it's a pain in the butt to full on business disruption and extortion. Can you explain how it all works before we go to the demo? >> You know, you're absolutely right. It is a big number and a lot of organizations are willing to pay that number, to get their data back. Essentially their organization and their business is at a complete standstill when they don't pay, all their files are inaccessible to them. Ransomware in general, what it does end up from a very basic overview is it basically makes your files not available to you. They're encrypted. They have essentially a passcode on them that you have to have the correct passcode to decode them. A lot of times that's in a form of a program or actually a physical password you have to type in, but you don't get that access to get your files back unless you pay the ransom. A lot of corporations these days, they are not only paying the ransom. They're actually negotiating with the criminals as well. They're trying to say, "Oh, you want 10 million? "How about 4 million?" Sometimes that goes on as well. But it's something that organizations know that if they didn't have the proper backups and the hackers are getting smart, they're trying to go after the backups as well. They're trying to go after your duplicated files. So sometimes you don't have a choice in organizations. Will pay the ransom. >> And it's, they're smart, there's a business. They know the probability of buy versus build or pay versus rebuild. So they kind of know where to attack. They know that the tactics and it's vulnerable. It's not like just some kitty script thing going on. This is real sophisticated stuff it's highly targeted. Can you talk about some use cases there and what goes on with that kind of a attack? >> Absolutely. The cyber criminals are doing reconnaissance and trying to find out as much as they can about their victims. And what happens is they're trying to make sure that they can motivate their victims in the fastest way possible to pay the ransom as well. So there's a lot of attacks going on. We usually, what we're finding now is ransomware is sometimes the last stage of an attack. So an attacker may go into an organization. They may already be taking data out of that organization. They may be stealing customer data, PII, which is personal identifiable information, such as social security numbers, or driver's licenses, or credit card information. Once they've done their entire tap. Once they've gone everything, they can. A lot of times their end stage, their last attack is ransomware. And they encrypt all the files on the system and try and motivate the victim to pay as fast as possible and as much as possible as well. >> I was talking to my buddy of the day. It's like casing the joint there, stay, check it out. They do their recon, reconnaissance. They go in identify what's the best move to make, how to extract the most out of the victim in this case, the target. And it really is, I mean, it's just to go on a tangent, why don't we have the right to bear our own arms? Why can't we fight back? I mean, at the end of the day, Derek, this is like, who's protecting me? I mean, what to protect my, build my own arms, or does the government help us? I mean, at some point I got a right to bear my own arms here. I mean, this is the whole security paradigm. >> Yeah. So, I mean, there's a couple of things. So first of all, this is exactly why we do a lot of, I was mentioning the skill shortage in cyber cybersecurity professionals as an example. This is why we do a lot of the heavy lifting on the backend. Obviously from a defensive standpoint, you obviously have the red team, blue team aspect. How do you first, there's what is to fight back by being defensive as well, too. And also by, in the world of threat intelligence, one of the ways that we're fighting back is not necessarily by going and hacking the bad guys because that's illegal jurisdictions. But how we can actually find out who these people are, hit them where it hurts, freeze assets, go after money laundering networks. If you follow the cash transactions where it's happening, this is where we actually work with key law enforcement partners, such as Interpol as an example, this is the world of threat intelligence. This is why we're doing a lot of that intelligence work on the backend. So there's other ways to actually go on the offense without necessarily weaponizing it per se, right? Like using, bearing your own arms as you said, there there's different forms that people may not be aware of with that. And that actually gets into the world of, if you see attacks happening on your system, how you can use the security tools and collaborate with threat intelligence. >> I think that's the key. I think the key is these new sharing technologies around collective intelligence is going to be a great way to kind of have more of an offensive collective strike. But I think fortifying, the defense is critical. I mean, that's, there's no other way to do that. >> Absolutely, I mean, we say this almost every week, but it's in simplicity. Our goal is always to make it more expensive for the cybercriminal to operate. And there's many ways to do that, right? You can be a pain to them by having a very rigid, hardened defense. That means if it's too much effort on their end, I mean, they have ROIs and in their sense, right? It's too much effort on there and they're going to go knocking somewhere else. There's also, as I said, things like disruption, so ripping infrastructure offline that cripples them, whack-a-mole, they're going to set up somewhere else. But then also going after people themselves, again, the cash networks, these sorts of things. So it's sort of a holistic approach between- >> It's an arms race, better AI, better cloud scale always helps. You know, it's a ratchet game. Aamir, I want to get into this video. It's a ransomware four minute video. I'd like you to take us through as you the Lead Researcher, take us through this video and explain what we're looking at. Let's roll the video. >> All right. Sure. So what we have here is we have the victims that's top over here. We have a couple of things on this victim's desktop. We have a batch file, which is essentially going to run the ransomware. We have the payload, which is the code behind the ransomware. And then we have files in this folder. And this is where you would typically find user files and a real world case. This would be like Microsoft or Microsoft word documents, or your PowerPoint presentations, or we're here we just have a couple of text files that we've set up. We're going to go ahead and run the ransomware. And sometimes attackers, what they do is they disguise this. Like they make it look like an important word document. They make it look like something else. But once you run the ransomware, you usually get a ransom message. And in this case, a ransom message says, your files are encrypted. Please pay this money to this Bitcoin address. That obviously is not a real Bitcoin address. I usually they look a little more complicated, but this is our fake Bitcoin address. But you'll see that the files now are encrypted. You cannot access them. They've been changed. And unless you pay the ransom, you don't get the files. Now, as researchers, we see files like this all the time. We see ransomware all the time. So we use a variety of tools, internal tools, custom tools, as well as open source tools. And what you're seeing here is an open source tool. It's called the Cuckoo Sandbox, and it shows us the behavior of the ransomware. What exactly is ransomware doing. In this case, you can see just clicking on that file, launched a couple of different things that launched basically a command executable, a power shell. They launched our windows shell. And then at, then add things on the file. It would basically, you had registry keys, it had on network connections. It changed the disk. So that's kind of gives us a behind the scenes, look at all the processes that's happening on the ransomware. And just that one file itself, like I said, does multiple different things. Now what we want to do as a researchers, we want to categorize this ransomware into families. We want to try and determine the actors behind that. So we dump everything we know in a ransomware in the central databases. And then we mine these databases. What we're doing here is we're actually using another tool called Maldito and use custom tools as well as commercial and open source tools. But this is a open source and commercial tool. But what we're doing is we're basically taking the ransomware and we're asking Maldito to look through our database and say like, do you see any like files? Or do you see any types of incidences that have similar characteristics? Because what we want to do is we want to see the relationship between this one ransomware and anything else we may have in our system, because that helps us identify maybe where the ransomware is connecting to, where it's going to other processes that I may be doing. In this case, we can see multiple IP addresses that are connected to it. So we can possibly see multiple infections. We can block different external websites that we can identify a command and control system. We can categorize this to a family, and sometimes we can even categorize this to a threat actor as claimed responsibility for it. So it's essentially visualizing all the connections and the relationship between one file and everything else we have in our database. And this example, of course, I'd put this in multiple ways. We can save these as reports, as PDF type reports or usually HTML or other searchable data that we have back in our systems. And then the cool thing about this is this is available to all our products, all our researchers, all our specialty teams. So when we're researching botnets, when we're researching file-based attacks, when we're researching IP reputation, we have a lot of different IOC or indicators of compromise that we can correlate where attacks go through and maybe even detect new types of attacks as well. >> So the bottom line is you got the tools using combination of open source and commercial products to look at the patterns of all ransomware across your observation space. Is that right? >> Exactly. I showed you like a very simple demo. It's not only open source and commercial, but a lot of it is our own custom developed products as well. And when we find something that works, that logic, that technique, we make sure it's built into our own products as well. So our own customers have the ability to detect the same type of threats that we're detecting as well. At FortiGuard Labs, the intelligence that we acquire, that product, that product of intelligence it's consumed directly by our prospects. >> So take me through what what's actually going on, what it means for the customer. So FortiGuard Labs, you're looking at all the ransomware, you seeing the patterns, are you guys proactively looking? Is it, you guys are researching, you look at something pops in the radar. I mean, take us through what goes on and then how does that translate into a customer notification or impact? >> So, yeah, John, if you look at a typical life cycle of these attacks, there's always proactive and reactive. That's just the way it is in the industry, right? So of course we try to be (indistinct) as we look for some of the solutions we talked about before, and if you look at an incoming threat, first of all, you need visibility. You can't protect or analyze anything that you can see. So you got to get your hands on visibility. We call these IOC indicators of compromise. So this is usually something like an actual executable file, like the virus or the malware itself. It could be other things that are related to it, like websites that could be hosting the malware as an example. So once we have that SEED, we call it a SEED. We can do threat hunting from there. So we can analyze that, right? If we have to, it's a piece of malware or a botnet, we can do analysis on that and discover more malicious things that this is doing. Then we go investigate those malicious things. And we really, it's similar to the world of CSI, right? These different dots that they're connecting, we're doing that at hyper-scale. And we use that through these tools that Aamir was talking about. So it's really a lifecycle of getting the malware incoming, seeing it first, analyzing it, and then doing action on that. So it's sort of a three step process. And the action comes down to what Aamir was saying, waterfall and that to our customers, so that they're protected. But then in tandem with that, we're also going further and I'm sharing it if applicable to say law enforcement partners, other threat Intel sharing partners too. And it's not just humans doing that. So the proactive piece, again, this is where it comes to artificial intelligence, machine learning. There's a lot of cases where we're automatically doing that analysis without humans. So we have AI systems that are analyzing and actually creating protection on its own too. So it's quite interesting that way. >> It say's at the end of the day, you want to protect your customers. And so this renders out, if I'm a Fortinet customer across the portfolio, the goal here is protect them from ransomware, right? That's the end game. >> Yeah. And that's a very important thing. When you start talking to these big dollar amounts that were talking earlier, it comes to the damages that are done from that- >> Yeah, I mean, not only is it good insurance, it's just good to have that fortification. So Derek, I going to ask you about the term the last mile, because, we were, before we came on camera, I'm a band with junkie always want more bandwidth. So the last mile, it used to be a term for last mile to the home where there was telephone lines. Now it's fiber and wifi, but what does that mean to you guys in security? Does that mean something specific? >> Yeah, absolutely. The easiest way to describe that is actionable. So one of the challenges in the industry is we live in a very noisy industry when it comes to cybersecurity. What I mean by that is that because of that growing attacks for FIS and you have these different attack factors, you have attacks not only coming in from email, but websites from DoS attacks, there's a lot of volume that's just going to continue to grow is the world that 5G and OT. So what ends up happening is when you look at a lot of security operations centers for customers, as an example, there are, it's very noisy. It's you can guarantee almost every day, you're going to see some sort of probe, some sort of attack activity that's happening. And so what that means is you get a lot of protection events, a lot of logs. And when you have this worldwide shortage of security professionals, you don't have enough people to process those logs and actually start to say, "Hey, this looks like an attack." I'm going to go investigate it and block it. So this is where the last mile comes in, because a lot of the times that, these logs, they light up like Christmas. And I mean, there's a lot of events that are happening. How do you prioritize that? How do you automatically add action? Because the reality is if it's just humans doing it, that last mile is often going back to your bandwidth terms. There's too much latency. So how do you reduce that latency? That's where the automation, the AI machine learning comes in to solve that last mile problem to automatically add that protection. It's especially important 'cause you have to be quicker than the attacker. It's an arms race, like you said earlier. >> I think what you guys do with FortiGuard Labs is super important, not only for the industry, but for society at large, as you have kind of all this, shadow, cloak and dagger kind of attack systems, whether it's national security international, or just for, mafias and racketeering, and the bad guys. Can you guys take a minute and explain the role of FortiGuards specifically and why you guys exist? I mean, obviously there's a commercial reason you built on the Fortinet that trickles down into the products. That's all good for the customers, I get that. But there's more at the FortiGuards. And just that, could you guys talk about this trend and the security business, because it's very clear that there's a collective sharing culture developing rapidly for societal benefit. Can you take a minute to explain that? >> Yeah, sure. I'll give you my thoughts, Aamir will add some to that too. So, from my point of view, I mean, there's various functions. So we've just talked about that last mile problem. That's the commercial aspect. We created a through FortiGuard Labs, FortiGuard services that are dynamic and updated to security products because you need intelligence products to be able to protect against intelligent attacks. That's just a defense again, going back to, how can we take that further? I mean, we're not law enforcement ourselves. We know a lot about the bad guys and the actors because of the intelligence work that we do, but we can't go in and prosecute. We can share knowledge and we can train prosecutors, right? This is a big challenge in the industry. A lot of prosecutors don't know how to take cybersecurity courses to court. And because of that, a lot of these cyber criminals reign free, and that's been a big challenge in the industry. So this has been close my heart over 10 years, I've been building a lot of these key relationships between private public sector, as an example, but also private sector, things like Cyber Threat Alliance. We're a founding member of the Cyber Threat Alliance. We have over 28 members in that Alliance, and it's about sharing intelligence to level that playing field because attackers roam freely. What I mean by that is there's no jurisdictions for them. Cyber crime has no borders. They can do a million things wrong and they don't care. We do a million things right, one thing wrong and it's a challenge. So there's this big collaboration. That's a big part of FortiGuard. Why exists too, as to make the industry better, to work on protocols and automation and really fight this together while remaining competitors. I mean, we have competitors out there, of course. And so it comes down to that last mile problems on is like, we can share intelligence within the industry, but it's only intelligence is just intelligence. How do you make it useful and actionable? That's where it comes down to technology integration. >> Aamir, what's your take on this societal benefit? Because, I would say instance, the Sony hack years ago that, when you have nation States, if they put troops on our soil, the government would respond, but yet virtually they're here and the private sector has to fend for themselves. There's no support. So I think this private public partnership thing is very relevant, I think is ground zero of the future build out of policy because we pay for freedom. Why don't we have cyber freedom if we're going to run a business, where is our help from the government? We pay taxes. So again, if a military showed up, you're not going to see companies fighting the foreign enemy, right? So again, this is a whole new changeover. What's your thought? >> It really is. You have to remember that cyber attacks puts everyone on an even playing field, right? I mean, now don't have to have a country that has invested a lot in weapons development or nuclear weapons or anything like that. Anyone can basically come up to speed on cyber weapons as long as an internet connection. So it evens the playing field, which makes it dangerous, I guess, for our enemies. But absolutely I think a lot of us, from a personal standpoint, a lot of us have seen research does I've seen organizations fail through cyber attacks. We've seen the frustration, we've seen, like besides organization, we've seen people like, just like grandma's lose their pictures of their other loved ones because they kind of, they've been attacked by ransomware. I think we take it very personally when people like innocent people get attacked and we make it our mission to make sure we can do everything we can to protect them. But I will add that at least here in the U.S. the federal government actually has a lot of partnerships and a lot of programs to help organizations with cyber attacks. The US-CERT is always continuously updating, organizations about the latest attacks and regard is another organization run by the FBI and a lot of companies like Fortinet. And even a lot of other security companies participate in these organizations. So everyone can come up to speed and everyone can share information. So we all have a fighting chance. >> It's a whole new wave of paradigm. You guys are on the cutting edge. Derek always great to see you, Aamir great to meet you remotely, looking forward to meeting in person when the world comes back to normal as usual. Thanks for the great insights. Appreciate it. >> Pleasure as always. >> Okay. Keep conversation here. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. Great insightful conversation around security ransomware with a great demo. Check it out from Derek and Aamir from FortiGuard Labs. I'm John Furrier. Thanks for watching.

>> Narrator: Live from San Francisco. It's theCUBE, covering RSA Conference 2020, San Francisco. Brought to you by, SiliconANGLE Media. >> Welcome back everyone. CUBE coverage here in Moscone in San Francisco for RSA, 2020. I'm John Furrier host of theCUBE. We've got a great guest here talking about cybersecurity and the impact with AI and the role of data. It's always great to have Derek Manky on Chief Security Insights Global Threat Alliances with FortiGuard Lab, part of Fortinet, FortiGuard Labs is great. Great organization. Thanks for coming on. >> It's a pleasure always to be here-- >> So you guys do a great threat report that we always cover. So it covers all the bases and it really kind of illustrates state of the art of viruses, the protection, threats, et cetera. But you're part of FortiGuard Labs. >> Yeah, that's right. >> Part of Fortinet, which is a security company, public. What is FortiGuard Labs? What do you guys do, what's your mission? >> So FortiGuard Labs has existed since day one. You can think of us as the intelligence that's baked into the product, It's one thing to have a world-class product, but you need a world-class intelligence team backing that up. We're the ones fighting those fires against cybercrime on the backend, 24/7, 365 on a per second basis. We're processing threat intelligence. We've got over 10 million attacks or processing just per minute, over a hundred billion events, in any given day that we have to sift through. We have to find out what's relevant. We have to find gaps that we might be missing detection and protection. We got to push that out to a customer base of 450,000 customers through FortiGuard services and 5 million firewalls, 5 million plus firewalls we have now. So it's vitally important. You need intelligence to be able to detect and then protect and also to respond. Know the enemy, build a security solution around that and then also be able to act quickly about it if you are under active attack. So we're doing everything from creating security controls and protections. So up to, real time updates for customers, but we're also doing playbooks. So finding out who these attackers are, why are they coming up to you. For a CSO, why does that matter? So this is all part of FortiGuard Labs. >> How many people roughly involved ? Take us a little inside the curtain here. What's going on? Personnel size, scope. >> So we're over 235. So for a network security vendor, this was the largest global SOC, that exists. Again, this is behind the curtain like you said. These are the people that are, fighting those fires every day. But it's a large team and we have experts to cover the entire attack surface. So we're looking at not just a viruses, but we're looking at as zero-day weapons, exploits and attacks, everything from cyber crime to, cyber warfare, operational technology, all these sorts of things. And of course, to do that, we need to really heavily rely on good people, but also automation and artificial intelligence and machine learning. >> You guys are walking on a tight rope there. I can only imagine how complex and stressful it is, just imagining the velocity alone. But one of the trends that's coming up here, this year at RSA and is kind of been talking about in the industry is the who? Who is the attacker because, the shifts could shift and change. You got nation states are sitting out there, they're not going to have their hands dirty on this stuff. You've got a lot of dark web activity. You've got a lot of actors out there that go by different patterns. But you guys have an aperture and visibility into a lot of this stuff. >> Absolutely. >> So, you can almost say, that's that guy. That's the actor. That's a really big part. Talk about why that's important. >> This is critically important because in the past, let's say the first generation of, threat intelligence was very flat. It was to watch. So it was just talking about here's a bad IP, here's a bad URL, here's a bad file block hit. But nowadays, obviously the attackers are very clever. These are large organizations that are run a lot of people involved. There's real world damages happening and we're talking about, you look at OT attacks that are happening now. There's, in some cases, 30, $40 million from targeted ransom attacks that are happening. These people, A, have to be brought to justice. So we need to understand the who, but we also need to be able to predict what their next move is. This is very similar to, this is what you see online or CSI. The police trynna investigate and connect the dots like, plotting the strings and the yarn on the map. This is the same thing we're doing, but on a way more advanced level. And it's very important to be able to understand who these groups are, what tools they use, what are the weapons, cyber weapons, if you will, and what's their next move potentially going to be. So there's a lot of different reasons that's important. >> Derek, I was riffing with another guest earlier today about this notion of, government protection. You've got a military troops drop on our shores and my neighborhood, the Russians drop in my neighborhood. Guess what, the police will probably come in, and, or the army should take care of it. But if I got to run a business, I got to build my own militia. There's no support out there. The government's not going to support me. I'm hacked. Damage is done. You guys are in a way providing that critical lifeline that guard or shield, if you will, for customers. And they're going to want more of it. So I've got to ask you the hard question, which is, how are you guys going to constantly be on the front edge of all this? Because at the end of the day, you're in the protection business. Threats are coming at the speed of milliseconds and nanoseconds, in memory. You need memory, you need database. You've got to have real time. It's a tsunami of attack. You guys are the front lines of this. You're the heat shield. >> Yes, absolutely. >> How do you take it to the next level? >> Yeah, so collaboration, integration, having a broad integrated platform, that's our bread and butter. This is what we do. End-to-end security. The attack surface is growing. So we have to be able to, A, be able to cover all aspects of that attack surface and again, have intelligence. So we're doing sharing through partners. We have our core intelligence network. Like I said, we're relying heavily on machine learning models. We're able to find that needle in the haystack. Like, as I said earlier, we're getting over a hundred billion potential threat events a day. We have to dissect that. We have to break it down. We have to say, is this affecting endpoint? Is this effect affecting operational technology? What vertical, how do we process it? How do we verify that this is a real threat? And then most importantly, get that out in time and speed to our customers. So I started with automation years ago, but now really the way that we're doing this is through broad platform coverage. But also machine learning models for and-- >> I want to dig into machine learning because, I love that needle in the haystack analogy, because, if you take that to the next step, you got to stack a needles now. So you find the needle in the haystack. Now you got a bunch of needles, where do you find that? You need AI, you got to have some help. But you still got the human component. So talk about how you guys are advising customers on how you're using machine learning and get that AI up and running for customers and for yourselves. >> So we're technology people. I always look at this as the stack. The stack model, the bottom of the stack, you have automation. You have layer one, layer two. That's like the basic things for, feeds, threat feeds, how we can push out, automate, integrate that. Then you have the human. So the layer seven. This is where our human experts are coming in to actually advise our customers. We're creating a threat signals with FortiGuard Labs as an example. These are bulletins that's a quick two to three page read that a CSO can pick up and say, here's what FortiGuard Labs has discovered this week. Is this relevant to my network? Do I have these protections in place. There's also that automated, and so, I refer to this as a centaur model. It's half human half machine and, the machines are driving a lot of that, the day to day mundane tasks, if you will, but also finding, collecting the needles of needles. But then ultimately we have our humans that are processing that, analyzing it, creating the higher level strategic advice. We recently, we've launched a FortiAI, product as well. This has a concept of a virtual-- >> Hold on, back up a second. What's it called? >> FortiAI. >> So it's AI components. Is it a hardware box or-- >> This is a on-premise appliance built off of five plus years of learning that we've done in the cloud to be able to identify threats and malware, understand what that malware does to a detailed level. And, where we've seen this before, where is it potentially going? How do we protect against it? Something that typically you would need, four to five headcount in your security operations center to do, we're using this as an assist to us. So that's why it's a virtual analyst. It's really a bot, if you will, something that can actually-- >> So it's an enabling opportunity for the customers. So is this virtual assistant built into the box. What does that do, virtual analyst. >> So the virtual analyst is able to, sit on premises. So it's localized learning, collect threats to understand the nature of those threats, to be able to look at the needles of the needles, if you will, make sense of that and then automatically generate reports based off of that. So it's really an assist tool that a network admin or a security analyst was able to pick up and virtually save hours and hours of time of resources. >> So, if you look at the history of like our technology industry from a personalization standpoint, AI and data, whether you're a media business, personalization is ultimately the result of good data AI. So personalization for an analyst, would be how not to screw up their job. (laughs) One level. The other one is to be proactive on being more offensive. And then third collaboration with others. So, you starting to see that kind of picture form. What's your reaction to that? >> I think it's great. There's stepping stones that we have to go through. The collaboration is not always easy. I'm very familiar with this. I mean I was, with the Cyber Threat Alliance since day one, I head up and work with our Global Threat Alliances. There's always good intentions, there's problems that can be created and obviously you have things like PII now and data privacy and all these little hurdles they have to come over. But when it works right together, this is the way to do it. It's the same thing with, you talked about the data naturally when he started building up IT stacks, you have silos of data, but ultimately those silos need to be connected from different departments. They need to integrate a collaborate. It's the same thing that we're seeing from the security front now as well. >> You guys have proven the model of FortiGuard that the more you can see, the more visibility you can see and more access to the data in real time or anytime scale, the better the opportunity. So I got to take that to the next level. What you guys are doing, congratulations. But now the customer. How do I team up with, if I'm a customer with other customers because the bad guys are teaming up. So the teaming up is now a real dynamic that companies are deploying. How are you guys looking at that? How is FortiGuard helping that? Is it through services? Is it through the products like virtual assistant? Virtual FortiAI? >> So you can think of this. I always make it an analogy to the human immune system. Artificial neural networks are built off of neural nets. If I have a problem and an infection, say on one hand, the rest of the body should be aware of that. That's collaboration from node to node. Blood cells to blood cells, if you will. It's the same thing with employees. If a network admin sees a potential problem, they should be able to go and talk to the security admin, who can go in, log into an appliance and create a proper response to that. This is what we're doing in the security fabric to empower the customer. So the customer doesn't have to always do this and have the humans actively doing those cycles. I mean, this is the integration. The orchestration is the big piece of what we're doing. So security orchestration between devices, that's taking that gap out from the human to human, walking over with a piece of paper to another or whatever it is. That's one of the key points that we're doing within the actual security fabric. >> So that's why silos is problematic. Because you can't get that impact. >> And it also creates a lag time. We have a need for speed nowadays. Threats are moving incredibly fast. I think we've talked about this on previous episodes with swarm technology, offensive automation, the weaponization of artificial intelligence. So it becomes critically important to have that quick response and silos, really create barriers of course, and make it slower to respond. >> Okay Derek, so I got to ask you, it's kind of like, I don't want to say it sounds like sports, but it's, what's the state of the art in the attack vectors coming in. What are you guys seeing as some of the best of breed tax that people should really be paying attention to? They may, may not have fortified down. What are SOCs looking at and what are security pros focused on right now in terms of the state of the art. >> So the things that keep people up at night. We follow this in our Threat Landscape Report. Obviously we just released our key four one with FortiGuard Labs. We're still seeing the same culprits. This is the same story we talked about a lot of times. Things like, it used to be a EternalBlue and now BlueKeep, these vulnerabilities that are nothing new but still pose big problems. We're still seeing that exposed on a lot of networks. Targeted ransom attacks, as I was saying earlier. We've seen the shift or evolution from ransomware from day to day, like, pay us three or $400, we'll give you access to your data back to going after targeted accounts, high revenue business streams. So, low volume, high risk. That's the trend that we're starting to see as well. And this is what I talk about for trying to find that needle in the haystack. This is again, why it's important to have eyes on that. >> Well you guys are really advanced and you guys doing great work, so congratulations. I got to ask you to kind of like, the spectrum of IT. You've got a lot of people in the high end, financial services, healthcare, they're regulated, they got all kinds of challenges. But as IT and the enterprise starts to get woke to the fact that everyone's vulnerable. I've heard people say, well, I'm good. I got a small little to manage, I'm only a hundred million dollar business. All I do is manufacturing. I don't really have any IP. So what are they going to steal? So that's kind of a naive approach. The answer is, what? Your operations and ransomware, there's a zillion ways to get taken down. How do you respond to that. >> Yeah, absolutely. Going after the crown jewels, what hurts? So it might not be a patent or intellectual property. Again, the things that matter to these businesses, how they operate day to day. The obvious examples, what we just talked about with revenue streams and then there's other indirect problems too. Obviously, if that infrastructure of a legitimate organization is taken over and it's used as a botnet and an orchestrated denial-of-service attack to take down other organizations, that's going to have huge implications. >> And they won't even know it. >> Right, in terms of brand damage, has legal implications as well that happened. This is going even down to the basics with consumers, thinking that, they're not under attack, but at the end of the day, what matters to them is their identity. Identity theft. But this is on another level when it comes to things to-- >> There's all kinds of things to deal with. There's, so much more advanced on the attacker side. All right, so I got to ask you a final question. I'm a business. You're a pro. You guys are doing great work. What do I do, what's my strategy? How would you advise me? How do I get my act together? I'm working the mall every day. I'm trying my best. I'm peddling as fast as I can. I'm overloaded. What do I do? How do I go the next step? >> So look for security solutions that are the assist model like I said. There's never ever going to be a universal silver bullet to security. We all know this. But there are a lot of things that can help up to that 90%, 95% secure. So depending on the nature of the threats, having a first detection first, that's always the most important. See what's on your network. This is things where SIM technology, sandboxing technology has really come into play. Once you have those detections, how can you actually take action? So look for a integration. Really have a look at your security solutions to see if you have the integration piece. Orchestration and integration is next after detection. Finally from there having a proper channel, are there services you looked at for managed incident response as an example. Education and cyber hygiene are always key. These are free things that I push on everybody. I mean we release weekly threat intelligence briefs. We're doing our quarterly Threat Landscape Reports. We have something called threat signals. So it's FortiGuard response to breaking industry events. I think that's key-- >> Hygiene seems to come up over and over as the, that's the foundational bedrock of security. >> And then, as I said, ultimately, where we're heading with this is the AI solution model. And so that's something, again that I think-- >> One final question since it's just popped into my head. I wanted, and that last one. But I wanted to bring it up since you kind of were, we're getting at it. I know you guys are very sensitive to this one topic cause you live it every day. But the notion of time and time elapsed is a huge concern because you got to know, it's not if it's when. So the factor of time is a huge variable in all kinds of impact. Positive and negative. How do you talk about time and the notion of time elapsing. >> That's great question. So there's many ways to stage that. I'll try to simplify it. So number one, if we're talking about breaches, time is money. So the dwell time. The longer that a threat sits on a network and it's not cleaned up, the more damage is going to be done. And we think of the ransom attacks, denial-of-service, revenue streams being down. So that's the incident response problem. So time is very important to detect and respond. So that's one aspect of that. The other aspect of time is with machine learning as well. This is something that people don't always think about. They think that, artificial intelligence solutions can be popped up overnight and within a couple of weeks they're going to be accurate. It's not the case. Machines learn like humans too. It takes time to do that. It takes processing power. Anybody can get that nowadays, data, most people can get that. But time is critical to that. It's a fascinating conversation. There's many different avenues of time that we can talk about. Time to detect is also really important as well, again. >> Let's do it, let's do a whole segment on that, in our studio, I'll follow up on that. I think it's a huge topic, I hear about all the time. And since it's a little bit elusive, but it kind of focuses your energy on, wait, what's going on here? I'm not reacting. (laughs) Time's a huge issue. >> I refer to it as a latency. I mean, latency is a key issue in cybersecurity, just like it is in the stock exchange. >> I mean, one of the things I've been talking about with folks here, just kind of in fun conversation is, don't be playing defense all the time. If you have a good time latency, you going to actually be a little bit offensive. Why not take a little bit more offense. Why play defense the whole time. So again, you're starting to see this kind of mentality not being, just an IT, we've got to cover, okay, respond, no, hold on the ballgame. >> That comes back to the sports analogy again. >> Got to have a good offense. They must cross offense. Derek, thanks so much. Quick plug for you, FortiGuard, share with the folks what you guys are up to, what's new, what's the plug. >> So FortiGuard Labs, so we're continuing to expand. Obviously we're focused on, as I said, adding all of the customer protection first and foremost. But beyond that, we're doing great things in industry. So we're working actively with law enforcement, with Interpol, Cyber Threat Alliance, with The World Economic Forum and the Center for Cyber Security. There's a lot more of these collaboration, key stakeholders. You talked about the human to human before. We're really setting the pioneering of setting that world stage. I think that is, so, it's really exciting to me. It's a lot of good industry initiatives. I think it's impactful. We're going to see an impact. The whole goal is we're trying to slow the offense down, the offense being the cyber criminals. So there's more coming on that end. You're going to see a lot great, follow our blogs at fortinet.com and all-- >> Great stuff. >> great reports. >> I'm a huge believer in that the government can't protect us digitally. There's going to be protection, heat shields out there. You guys are doing a good job. It's only going to be more important than ever before. So, congratulations. >> Thank you. >> Thanks for coming I really appreciate. >> Never a dull day as we say. >> All right, it's theCUBE's coverage here in San Francisco for RSA 2020. I'm John Furrier, your host. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Narrator: Live, from San Diego, California, it's theCUBE! Covering KubeCon, and CloudNativeCon. Brought to you by RedHat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, this is theCUBE's fourth year of covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon. This is the North America show here in San Diego it's 2019, he is John Troyer, I am Stu Miniman, and happy to welcome to the program, first of all, I have Murli Thirumali, who is the co-founder and CEO of Portworx, and Murli, thank you so much for bringing one of your customers on the program, Satish Puranam, who is a Technical Specialist with Ford Motor Company. Gentlemen, thank you so much for joining us. >> Delighted to be here. >> All right, so Satish, we're going to start with you because, you know, the growth of this ecosystem has been phenomenal, there were End Users up on the mainstage, we've already had them, there's over, there's 129 now CNCF End User Participants there, but, you know, bring us in Ford, you know, we were getting ready for this, we're talking, there's so much change going in from, you know, of course, everybody talks about autonomous vehicles, and what there have, but, you know, technology has really embedded itself deeply into a company like Ford, so before we get into all the crew, just, bring us a little about into your world, what's happening, changing, and, you know, what your team does. >> Sure, in like uh, Ford generally has been in like a transformation journey for about the last two years now, that includes like, completely redoing our Data Centers, our Application Portfolio, as part of this monolithic journey, we started our journey with Cloud Foundry, we have been a huge favorite to Cloud Foundry shops for some time. And then, we also would like to start dabbling with like, Kubernetes and things, associated technologies primarily do for like, looking for like, data services, messaging services, lot of the stateful things, right? Cloud Native and like, Kubernetes, and I- Cloud Foundry, I am sorry, Did great wonders for us, for qualified graphs. So what do we do with like, stateful things? And that's what we started dabbling with Kubernetes and things like that. >> Yeah, Satish, if I could, I want to step back one second here, and say, you know, you do a transformation, consolidation, moving from monoliths to microservices, what was the business driver here, was it one day, some executive got up and said, you know, "hey this sounds really cool, go do it", or was there a specific driver in the business that now, your organization needs to respond to? >> I think the business drive is cost efficiency. Like, uh, there were, like, a lot of things that we would have not done, so there's a lot of technical debt we have to pay down, because of various fragmentation and various other things, so it's always about realizing business efficiencies, and most importantly, speed at which we deliver services to our customers internally, so that was the main driving force for our engaging in this transformation journey for like, about the last few years. >> Okay, Murli we'd love to have bring you to this conversation here. You obviously, agility is one of the things I hear most from customers, the driver of what new things. Infrastructure for the longest time, in many ways, it was like a boat anchor of what held us back. >> Murli: Yep. >> Especially you know, our friends in Networking and Storage, it is difficult to change and keep up with, with what's driving there, so bring us uh, bring us up to speed with Portworx and how you fit into Ford and more broadly. >> Yeah, just a quick introduction to Portworx, we've been around for about five years, now, right from the early days of containers and Kubernetes, and you know, we have quite a few customers now in Production, we have about 130 customers, 50 of the uh, the global 2k and so on, many, almost all those customers are in Production, deploying stat significant workloads. The interesting thing about Kubernetes in the last couple of years, especially, is that everybody recognizes it has won the war for orchestrating containers and applications, but the reality is, the customer still has to manage the whole stack, the stack of not just the app but the data itself underneath, and that's kind of the role of Portworx, Portworx is the platform for storage for Kubernetes, and we orchestrate all the underlying storage and the data applications, with that being said, I think one of the things that we've seen that Ford has kind of led the way in, and has been really amazing, is some of the many surprising things that people don't really know about Kubernetes, which has been happening now with customers like Ford for a while, one of them, for example, is just the use of Kubernetes in on-prem applications. Very few people really kind of, they think of Kubernetes as something that was born in the Cloud, and therefore, has kind of really only mushroomed in the Cloud, and you know, the, one of the key things about Kubernetes, and most of our customers are actually on-prem, and it to me is transforming the Data Center. The agility that Satish speaks about, is something that you don't just need because you are operating in the Cloud, you need that for all of your on-prem applications, too, and that's been one of the unique characteristics that we've seen from Ford. >> Yeah, and that's, I mean, you talked about your journey, Satish, you know, the pivotal folks really talk a lot about transformation and agility you know, no matter where your apps were sitting, I'm kind of curious in terms of the storage and the stateful- statefulness of the applications that your working with now, you know, what kind of a, if I looked at it, the diagram, what kind of a set-up would there be? So there's a Portworx layer underneath and beside Kubernetes that's managing some of the storage and some of the replication? Is it then, is the data sitting in a, you know, on a SAN somewhere, is it sitting in the Cloud, I mean, can you kind of describe what a typical application would look like? >> With your typical application, yes we draw storage, we've been drawing storage for the past several years from NetApp as being as the primary source of our data, and then we run on top of that, we run some kind of storage overlays, we dabble with quite a few technologies, including, uh, Rook, NetApp Trident, Uh, Loster, You know I'm like a, it was a journey A journey that we took us, to ultimately lead us to Portworx and we just didn't started with Portworx, but the toughest aspect has been the gravity that the stories bring along with it, and all the things that are, Cloud Native is great but Cloud Native has stayed somewhere and that has to be managed someplace, and we said "Hey, can we do that with Kubernetes?" Right? So, I think we have done a- I won't say an outstanding job but at least we've done a reasonably good job at actually at least wrapping our heads around it and we have quite a few workloads in production that are actually stateful, whether they are Base Systems, uh, there are also like Data Messaging Systems, many cards applications and all that stuff so that has been something that we have been working on for the past few years on our platforms at least. >> Yeah, well I wonder if you could expand a little bit on kind of the application suite you know, "What can we do? What can't we do?" Listen to the keynote this morning I definitely heard it was, if you look at a multi cluster environment, You know, you want to mirror and have the same things there. Well I can't just magically have all the data everywhere and data has gravity and the laws of physics do apply so I can't just automatically replicate terabytes from here to the Cloud or back so help us understand where we are. >> So, you know, one of the, uh, one of the things Satish told me yesterday which I loved was he saying, he said: "Stateful is almost easier than stateless now because of the fact that we have these extensions of Kubenetes." So, one of the things that's been very very impactful is that Kubernetes is now these extensions for managing you know, storage networking and so on, and in fact the way they do that is through an API that just an overlay, so we are an example of an overlay. And so think about it this way, if a customer about 60 percent of our customers are building a platform as their service, in many cases they don't even know what applications are going to be in there, so over our customer base we see the same alphabet soup over and over and over again. Guess what it is, Postgress, Cassandra's, all the databases Redis, right? You know, all of the messaging queues, right? Things like Kafta and uh, you know, Streaming Data, for example, Spark workloads. And so, one of the key things that is happening around with customers particularly on the enterprise side, like large enterprises, they are using all kinds of applications and they're all stateful. I mean they're very few enterprises that are not stateful and they're all running on some kind of a storage substrate that has virtualized the underlying storage. So we run on top of the underlying hardware, but then we're enabled to kind of work with all of the orchestration that Kubernetes provides but we're adding the orchestration of the Data infrastructure as well as the storage itself And I think that's one of the key things that's changed with Kubernetes in the last, I would say, two and a half years is, most people used to think of it as "in the cloud and stateless" but now it's "on-prem and stateful." >> So Satish, one of the things we've talked to customers is their journey of modernizing their applications, it's, there's things that you might build brand-new and are great here but, you know, I'm sure you have thousands of applications and-- >> Satish: Absolutely. >> You know, going from the old way to a brand new thing, there's lot of different ways to get there. Some of it you might need to just-- Where are you with the journey of getting things onto this platform layer that we're talking about? And what will that journey look like for Port? >> Net new apps, anything being new we're talking about writing and like Cloud Native, Twelve factor Apps, like, but anything new, I'm like, anything existing data services, messaging services, what we affectionately call as table stakes services, right? So, which are the Twelve Factor Apps rely on, we are targeting towards Kubernetes. The idea is, "are we there yet?" Probably "no" like We are getting there with along with our partners to put it on the platforms like Kubernetes, right? So, we are also doing a lot of automation orchestration on VMs itself. But the idea is heavy and heavier workloads are going to be lining on Kubernetes platforms, and there will be a lot of work in the upcoming years particularly 2020, where we will be concentrating more on those things and with the continuing growth would be on Twelve Factor, Net New, would be Twelve Factor, Net New, could be in Cloud Foundry, could be in Kubernetes. Time will tell, but uh, that's the guiding philosophy, so to speak, but uh, There's a lot that we have to learn in this journey right now. >> Well I was kind of curious about that Satish, we've talked about an alphabet soup, we've talked about a lot of different projects, and certainly here at KubeCon, the thing about the Cloud Native Computing Foundation is that not that they don't have opinions, but everybody has an opinon, there's lots of different components here, it's not one stack, it's a collection of things that could be put together in several different ways. So you've tried a bunch of different things with storage, I'm actually, I'm interested if there are, if there were kind of surprises or, you know, containerized activity is probably different than I/O activity and storage I/O is probably different than in a virtual machine, the storage itself has some different assumptions built into it, so like, do you have any advise for people? I'm interested in the storage case but also just in, you don't have to evaluate nerworking and security and compliance and a lot of different things. Like, how do you go about approaching this sort of evaluation in this trial; in this journey of when you have-- when you're facing an "alphabet soup" of options? >> I think uh, it all comes down to basic engineering, right? So, what I make, think about "what are your failure points?" I'm like, "could be servers failing, infrastructure, hardware failing" right? So, the basic tendance is that we try to introduce failure as early as possible, like, "what happens if you pull the wire?" and "what happens if the server failure, failure happens?" The question that always comes back is that "is there a way I can compose the same infrastructure so that I can spread it across a couple of failure domains?" I think that was the whole idea of when we started, is like, "can we decompose the problem such that we can actually take advantage of primitives that begged into Kebernetes?" The great thing with CSI, that we're just realizing, before that were all flex drivers, but, how do you actually organize storage in the back end that actually allows you to actually compose this thing on the front end using the Kubernetes primitives. I think that was the process we though. >> John: And CSI is a standard API, >> Correct. >> Yeah, storage API, yeah. >> Exactly. I mean that's what we are relying, we're hoping that it's going to help us with things like, uh, moving compute, uh, to the storage rather than moving storage to the compute. That's one of the evolving, thinking that we're working with. Portworx, we've been working with the community folks from work and a couple of other areas. It's, there's lot to be done here, like we're just in still early days I would say. >> Murli, want to make sure we get out there, Portworx had some updates for this week so what do you say to latest? >> Yeah, so, the updates actually relate to exactly to what Satish was talking about, you know, the idea of, so, container storage has kind of been on it's own journey right? In the early days that John remembers well, it was really providing storage per system, making that data available everywhere. It's then clearly moved to HA being having the High Availability say within the cluster and so on. So, but the data life cycle for the application that's been containerized extends well beyond that so we are making extensions to our own product that are kind of following that path. So, one of the things we launched a few months ago was disaster recovery, DR, which is very very specific to containers, so, container granular DR, so you can kind of you know, take a snapshot, not just of the data, but of the application state as well as the Kubernetes pods back and recover all three of them. At this KubeCon we're announcing two other things. One of them is backup, so our customers, as they make the journey through their app life cycle, inevitably they need to backup their data and we have, again, container granular backup, that will provide all of, by the way, on existing storage. We're not asking anybody to up change, there's underneath their hardware storage substructure. The last thing we're introducing is storage capacity management which is fully automated. You know one of the characteristics of Kubernetes is all of that is "get the person" "get the trouble to get out of the picture," right? The world is going to be automated. Kubernetes is one of the ways people are doing that. And what we have provided is the ability to auto-resize volumes, and auto-resize pods of storage and add more nodes automatically based on policy that is completely automated so that again, these applications, you know when the characteristics of containerized workloads, they aren't predictable; they go up and down and they grow very fast sometimes, and so all of that management, so autopilot, uh, you know, backup DR have now been added in addition to persistent in HA. >> Alright, so before I let you both go, uh, want to talk about 2020? >> So soon. >> Satish, I want to give you a wish. You talked about all the things you'd do the next couple of years, if you could get one thing more out if this ecosystem to make your lives easier for you and your team, you know? What would that be? >> I think standardization on more of these interfaces. Kerbenetes provides a great platform for everybody to interact equally. Uh, more things like CSI, CRI, stuff that's happening in the community. And more standardization will lead to actually, make my life and things and end prizes a lot more easier. Will like to see continue that happening, GPU space looks very interesting, um, so we'll see. That would be my wish at least. >> Alright so Murli, I'm not giving you a wish. You're going to tell me, what should we be looking for from Portworx in participation in, you know, in this community over the next year. >> I think one of the big changes that's happened, really, in the last couple of years that is really kind of achieving a hockey stick is that enterprises are recognizing that stateful apps are really, should be using Kubernetes and can use Kubernetes. So to me, what I predict is that I think, Kubernetes is going to move from not, from just managing applications, to actually managing infrastructure like storage. And so I, you know, my belief is that 2020 is the beginning of where Kubernetes becomes the control plane across the Data Center and Cloud. It's the new control plane. No, what Openstack was aspiring to be many years ago, and that it will be looking upwards to manage applications and downwards to manage infrastructure and, it's not just us who are doing that, folks like VMware with Project Pacific have kind of kind of indicated that that's the direction that we see. So I think it's roll is now much more than just an app orchestrator, it's really going to be the new control plane for infrastructure and apps in the enterprise and in the Cloud. >> Murli, Satish, thank you so much for sharing all the update. >> Thank you >> Pleasure to catch up with both of you >> Thanks. >> Northbound, Southbound, Multi Cloud, theCube is at all of these environments and all the shows. For John Trayer, I'm Stu Miniman as always, thank you for watching theCube.

>> Voiceover: Live from San Francisco, celebrating 10 years of high tech coverage, it's theCUBE. Covering VMworld 2019. Brought to you by VMware and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, everyone, CUBE's live coverage for VMworld 2019 in Moscone North, in San Francisco, California. I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante. Dave, our 10 years, we have Eric Herzog, the CMO and vice president of Global Storage Channels at IBM. CUBE alum, this is his 11th appearance on theCUBE at VMworld. That's the number one position. >> Dave: It's just at VMworld. >> Congratulations, welcome back. >> Well, thank you very much. Always love to come to theCUBE. >> John: Sporting the nice shirt and the IBM badge, well done. >> Thank you, thank you. >> What's going on with IBM in VMworld? First, get the news out. What's happening for you guys here? >> So for us, we just had a big launch actually in July. That was all about big data, storage for big data and AI, and also storage for cyber-resiliency. So we just had a big launch in July, so we're just sort of continuing that momentum. We have some exciting things coming out on September 12th in the high end of our storage product line, and then some additional things very heavily around containers at the end of October. >> So the open shift is the first question I have that pops into my head. You know, I think of IBM, I think of IBM Storage, I think of Red Hat, the acquisition, OpenShift's been very successful. Pat Gelsinger was talking containers, Kubernetes-- >> Eric: Right. >> OpenShift has been a big part of Red Hat's offering, now part of IBM. Has that Red Shift, I mean OpenShift's come in, to your world, and how do you guys view that? I mean, it's containers, obviously, is there any impact there at all? >> So from a storage perspective, no. IBM storage has been working with Red Hat for over 15 years, way before the company ever thought about buying them. So we went to the old Red Hat Summits, it was two guys, a dog, and a note, and IBM was there. So we've been supporting Red Hat for years, and years, and years. So for the storage division, it's probably one of the least changes to the direction, compared to the rest of IBM 'cause we were already doing so much with Red Hat. >> You guys were present at the creation of the whole Red Hat movement. >> Yeah, I mean we were-- >> We've seen the summits, but I was kind of teeing up the question, but legitimately though, now that you have that relationship under your belt-- >> Eric: Right. >> And IBM's into creating OpenShift in all the services, you're starting to see Red Hat being an integral part across IBM-- >> Eric: Right. >> Does that impact you guys at all? >> So we've already talked about our support for Red Hat OpenShift. We do support it. We also support any sort of container environment. So we've made sure that if it's not OpenShift and someone's going to leverage something else, that our storage will work with it. We've had support for containers now for two and half years. We also support the CSI Standard. We publicly announced that earlier in the year, that we'd be having products at the end of the year and into the next year around the CSI specification. So, we're working on that as well. And then, IBM also came out with a thing that are called the Cloud Paks. These Cloud Paks are built around Red Hat. These are add-ons that across multiple divisions, and from that perspective, we're positioned as, you know, really that ideal rock solid foundation underneath any of those Cloud Paks with our support for Red Hat and the container world. >> How about protecting containers? I mean, you guys obviously have a lot of history in data protection of containers. They're more complicated. There's lots of them. You spin 'em up, spin 'em down. If they don't spin 'em down, they're an attack point. What are your thoughts on that? >> Well, first thing I'd say is stay tuned for the 22nd of October 'cause we will be doing a big announcement around what we're doing for modern data protection in the container space. We've already publicly stated we would be doing stuff. Right, already said we'd be having stuff either the end of this year in Q4 or in Q1. So, we'll be doing actually our formal launch on the 22nd of October from Prague. And we'll be talking much more detail about what we're doing for modern data protection in the container space. >> Now, why Prague? What's your thinking? >> Oh, IBM has a big event called TechU, it's a Technical University, and there'll be about 2,000 people there. So, we'll be doing our launch as part of the TechU process. So, Ed Walsh, who you both know well and myself will be doing a joint keynote at that event on the 22nd. >> So, talk a little bit more about multi-cloud. You hear all kinds of stuff on multi-cloud here, and we've been talkin' on theCUBE for a while. It's like you got IBM Red Hat, you got Google, CISCO's throwin' a hat in the ring. Obviously, VMware has designs on it. You guys are an arms dealer, but of course, you're, at the same time, IBM. IBM just bought Red Hat so what are your thoughts on multi-cloud? First, how real is it? Sizeable opportunity, and from a storage perspective, storage divisions perspective, what's your strategy there? >> Well, from our strategy, we've already been takin' hybrid multi-cloud for several years. In fact, we came to Wikibon, your sister entity, and actually, Ed and I did a presentation to you in July of 2017. I looked it up, the title says hybrid multi-cloud. (Dave laughs) Storage for hybrid multi-cloud. So, before IBM started talkin' about it, as a company, which now is, of course, our official line hybrid multi-cloud, the IBM storage division was supporting that. So, we've been supporting all sorts of cloud now for several years. What we have called transparent cloud tiering where we basically just see cloud as a tier. Just the way Flash would see hard drive or tape as a tier, we now see cloud as a tier, and our spectrum virtualized for cloud sits in a VM either in Amazon or in IBM Cloud, and then, several of our software products the Spectrum line, Spectrum Protect, Spectrum Scale, are available on the AWS Marketplace as well as the IBM Cloud Marketplace. So, for us, we see multi-cloud from a software perspective where the cloud providers offer it on their marketplaces, our solutions, and we have several, got some stuff with Google as well. So, we don't really care what cloud, and it's all about choice, and customers are going to make that choice. There's been surveys done. You know, you guys have talked about it that certainly in the enterprise space, you're not going to use one cloud. You use multiple clouds, three, four, five, seven, so we're not going to care what cloud you use, whether it be the big four, right? Google, IBM, Amazon, or Azure. Could it be NTT in Japan? We have over 400 small and medium cloud providers that use our Spectrum Protect as the engine for their backup as a service. We love all 400 of them. By the way, there's another 400 we'd like to start selling Spectrum Protect as a service. So, from our perspective, we will work with any cloud provider, big, medium, and small, and believe that that's where the end users are going is to use not just one cloud provider but several. So, we want to be the storage connected. >> That's a good bet, and again, you bring up a good point, which I'll just highlight for everyone watching, you guys have made really good bets early, kind of like we were just talking to Pat Gelsinger. He was making some great bets. You guys have made some, the right calls on a lot of things. Sometimes, you know, Dave's critical of things in there that I don't really have visibility in the storage analyst he is, but generally speaking, you, Red Hat, software, the systems group made it software. How would you describe the benefits of those bets paying off today for customers? You mentioned versatility, all these different partners. Why is IBM relevant now, and from those bets that you've made, what's the benefit to the customers? How would you talk about that? Because it's kind of a big message. You got a lot going on at IBM Storage, but you've made some good bets that turned out to be on the right side of tech history. What are those bets? And what are they materializing into? >> Sure, well, the key thing is you know I always wear a Hawaiian shirt on theCUBE. I think once maybe I haven't. >> You were forced to wear a white shirt. You were forced to wear the-- >> Yes, an IBM white shirt, and once, I actually had a shirt from when I used to work for Pat at the EMC, but in general, Hawaiian shirt, and why? Because you don't fight the wave, you ride the wave, and we've been riding the wave of technology. First, it was all about AI and automation inside of storage. Our easy tier product automatically tiers. You don't have, all you do is set it up once, and after that, it automatically moves data back and forth, not only to our arrays, but over 450 arrays that aren't ours, and the data that's hottest goes to the fastest tier. If you have 15,000 RPM drives, that's your fastest, it automatically knows that and moves data back and forth between hot, fast, and cold. So, one was putting AI and automation in storage. Second wave we've been following was clearly Flash. It's all about Flash. We create our own Flash, we buy raw Flash, create our own modules. They are in the industry standard form factor, but we do things, for example, like embed encryption with no performance hit into the Flash. Latency as low as 20 microseconds, things that we can do because we take the Flash and customize it, although it is in industry standard form factor. The other one is clearly storage software and software-defined storage. All of our arrays come with software. We don't sell hardware. We sell a storage solution. They either come with Spectrum Virtualize or Spectrum Scale, but those packages are also available stand-alone. If you want to go to your reseller or your distributor and buy off-the-shelf white-box componentry, storage-rich servers, you can create your own array with Spectrum Virtualize for block, Spectrum Scale for File, IBM Object Storage for Cloud. So, if someone wants to buy software only, just the way Pat was talking about software-defined networking, we'll sell 'em software for file blocker object, and they don't buy any infrastructure from us. They only buy the software, so-- >> So, is that why you have a large customer base? Is that why there's so much, diverse set of implementations? >> Well, we've got our customers that are system-oriented, right, some you have Flash system. Got other customers that say, "Look, I just want to buy Spectrum Scale. "I don't want to buy your infrastructure. "Just I'll build my own," and we're fine with that. And the other aspect we have, of course, is we've got the modern data protection with Spectrum Protect. So, you've got a lot of vendors out on the floor. They only sell backup. That's all they sell, and you got other people on the floor, they only sell an array. They have nice little arrays, but they can't do an array and software-defined storage and modern data protection one throat to choke, one tech support, entity to deal with one set of business partners to deal with, and we can do that, which is why it's so diverse. We have people who don't have any of IBM storage at all, but they back up everything with Spectrum Protect. We have other customers who have Flash systems, but they use backup from one of our competitors, and that's okay 'cause we'll always get a PO one way or another, right? >> So, you want the choice as factor. >> Right. >> Question on the ecosystem and your relationship with VMware. As John said, 10th year at VMworld, if you go back 10 years, storage, VMware storage was limited. They had very few resources. They were throwin' out APIs to the storage industry and sayin' here, you guys, fix this problem, and you had this cartel, you know, it was EMC, IBM was certainly in there, and NetApp, a couple others, HPE, HP at the time, Dell, I don't know, I'm not sure if Dell was there. They probably were, but you had the big Cos that actually got the SDK early, and then, you'd go off and try to sell all the storage problems. Of course, EMC at the time was sort of puttin' the brakes on VMware. Now, it's totally different. You've got, actually similar cartel. Although, you've got different ownership structure with Dell, EMC, and you got (mumbles) VMwware's doin' its own software finally. The cuffs are off. So, your thoughts on the changes that have gone on in the ecosystem. IBM's sort of position and your relationship with VMware, how that's evolved. >> So, the relationship for us is very tight. Whether it be the old days of VASA, VAAI, V-center op support, right, then-- >> Dave: V-Vault, yeah yeah. >> Now, V-Vault two so we've been there every single time, and again, we don't fight the wave, we ride the wave. Virtualization's a wave. It's swept the industry. It swept the end users. It's swept every aspect of compute. We just were riding that wave and making sure our storage always worked with it with VMware, as well as other hypervisors as well, but we always supported VMware first. VMware also has a strong relationship with the cloud division, as you know, they've now solved all kinds of different things with IBM Cloud so we're making sure that we stay there with them and are always up front and center. We are riding all the waves that they start. We're not fighting it. We ride it. >> You got the Hawaiian shirt. You're riding the waves. You're hanging 10, as you used to say. Toes on the nose, as the expression goes. As Pat Gelsinger says, ride the new wave, you're a driftwood. Eric, great to see you, CMO of IBM Storage, great to have you all these years and interviewing you, and gettin' the knowledge. You're a walking storage encyclopedia, Wikipedia, thanks for comin' on. >> Great, thank you. >> All right, it's more CUBE coverage here live in San Francisco. I'm John Furrier for Dave Vellante, stay with us. I got Sanjay Putin coming up, and we have all the big executives who run the different divisions. We're going to dig into them. We're going to get the data, share with you. We'll be right back. (upbeat music)

>> Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE. Covering Dell Technologies World 2019. Brought to you by Dell Technologies. And it's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE's live coverage of Dell Technologies World here at the Sands Expo in Las Vegas. I'm your host Rebecca Knight along with my co-host Stu Miniman, we are joined by Lewie Newcomb he is the Vice President, Server Storage and HCI Engineering Dell EMC. Thank you so much for coming on theCUBE >> Thank you. >> For the first time ever. >> For the first time, I'm excited. Very excited about it. >> Yes well we're happy to have you. So we're talking VxFlex and we have not talked a lot about VxFlex on the show, I now you had a segment earlier. Tell us about your news today. >> Okay, well the big news for the show this week is we've launched an appliance. So traditionally we do a rack level product with VxFlex. So we've launched an appliance, so basically, think half-rack without networking. And then we did some updates to our software that we can talk about. And we also still, and we've added some more platforms. So we added the 840 PowerEdge server. So all of our products are on PowerEdge servers. And the 840 with 4-socket, we now have a great platform for SAP HANA. >> So Lewie let's take it back a sec, because VxFlex, there are some new products, but a main piece of this, this was a rebranding of some of the other pieces in the CI and HCI family. So maybe those people that have a little history, if you can help put this into context as to which brands are gone and under this umbrella. >> Yeah, so I'll just start with the new brands. VxFlex is the brand, VxFlex Ready Nodes, VxFlex Appliance is the new product, VxFlex Integrated Rack. VxFlex OS and VxFlex Manager. So a lot of parts there. >> Simplicity. >> Okay. (laughs) >> The naming is very simple and it's easier to talk about. I think a big improvement over our previous brands. And then, I'll go into some of the details. So, I talked about the Appliance, think about new consumption model, little bit smaller chunk there. But we also updated the software, the OS, so the VxFlex OS we added compression in this release, it's VxFlex 3.0 is the revision, it's shipping today. We added compression and we changed the data layout so we actually have higher performance and small granularity and snapshots. So some storage features were added. We also have many new certifications. So I mentioned the SAP HANA, we also have Epic, both VDI and the database. We also have SAS Analytics has a great white paper talking about our product and the benefits of our product. And we're really a performant product. If you think about, it's a pure software SAN And we can also do HCI, we can also combine the software SAN with the HCI we call that two-layers, the way we refer to the software SAN. >> Alright, so this week there's a lot of discussion about VxRail, so maybe use that a touch point for people to understand. VxRail, joint integration between VMware and Dell. VMware Hypervisor, give us a little compare and contrast as to some of those pieces. >> Great question, the VxRail as you said, it's our, integrated in an entire VMware stack. And some great announcements, I love ACE, if you seen the ACE announcement. So the Flex though is a product that's out there because not all customers are in a VMware environment. We also support bare metal. >> Or even if they use VMware they're not 100% VMware. >> Not 100%, and many of our customers actually have both. For high performance databases they might pick Flex. For more general purpose VDI and things they might pick the Rail and so customers as we talk to 'em, they different needs and we have different products for those, so we give them that choice. >> Well, let's actually walk us through a little bit about the VxFlex customer and sort of, so this customer what are their needs and why is VxFlex the choice? >> And you've been doing software defined for a long time so I always see it this way, you start out with a customer that's transforming their business, they want to get into software defined, they want to prepare themselves for the future. Well that's where we start, we're software defined. And the next thing we look at is, do they need performance? Do need they need some one millisecond latency across you know, 50 nodes, 1000 nodes, we can do that. We're very high performance, so that's why I mentioned the databases. And the other things is, we just talked about is that choice they may not want to use just vSphere, they might want to use other hypervisors, so we support those hypervisors. And then the real interesting thing is that two-layer, because as you know with HCI we combine the application and the stored services all on one node. So in our product we can actually separate those, so you can scale storage and compute separately. And it's still all in one storage pool. So it's a very flexible product that fits that kind of customer's needs. >> Okay, simplicity is really one of the key words that we've heard in this whole trend there. It's interesting having had discussion from CI all the way through HCI, some of the software that allows me to manage it, really makes invisible some of those choices. You just said, well HCI was, I can have some choices between the computing storage, but usually they did go in blocks together versus scaling them separately. Can you talk a little bit about the management suite and what that means from a customer administrator and the infrastructure team as to how they look at this spectrum of offerings. >> Sure, so we have the VxFlex Manager, I mentioned that in the beginning, so that manager is starting to automate that management orchestration. So from deployment to serviceability to provisioning, we launched several new features in that, in this current release 3.2 release. So it, more granularity round the service of the drives and things like that. We'll continue to evolve that. You mentioned that you're hearing that, every customer I talked to this week, number one thing we talk about is more automation, more ease of use, so as they're going into software defined, they're all asking for the same thing and we're going to support that with the VxFlex Manager. >> Alright, great so talk a little bit about the application, you talk about high performance environment, one of the things we've been looking in this space especially is, what are some of the new areas, things like containerization, Kubernetes, is this platform that the customer builds ready for that environment and how do we span from kind of what I have and where I'm going. >> Yeah, so we just launched our Kubernetes plugin, the CSI plugin, so we have some customers already testing that beta and because we have bare metal, we can also support that in that native environment, So most customers they are still using that in a virtualization environment. But they're preparing for the future, they're looking at different options, so it gives them that flexibility if they want to go bare metal. >> So you're 15 years at Dell and you've really spent your career in storage and we're talking about the big customer... Customer list of what they want, they want ease of use, they want simplicity, they want speed. >> They want performance. >> They want performance, so what are the kinds of things that you're thinking about for the next year's? >> Yeah well next year, we're still building out some of the storage services. So later in the year we'll add some new storage services, like we just added compression, so our launch this week was compression and we'll add more and more storage services more data protection, more replication. We'll continue in that path, and more and more management. The management is going to be a key area focus for us. >> Right, can you take us inside some of those customer conversations, good excitement, 15,000 people here. I'm sure you've talked to a lot of customers, what are some of the key concerns that are raising to them and what's the feedback you're getting? >> A lot of the customers the reason they want automation is they want to manage their full environment, 'cause remember at the rack level we've integrated the switching. So they want a predictable outcome and when they have drift, when they want to do security updates, that's most of our conversations, they want us to do more and more automation around that. Compliance against the product itself and then when a security patch comes in. And by the way I'll mention the two-layer, another great advantage of two-layer, a lot of times, these security patches come in only on the compute side. So we can do a security patch on the compute side without disrupting the storage pool, so it's a big advantage so that's 90% of the conversations we're having. >> Yeah, maybe touch on one of the big concerns, you talk about, I want that cloud operating model. When I'm running in any of the public clouds, I don't have to think about what version I'm running. The old days of, oh I had to manage it to in the VCE days, it was the compatibility matrix and then the RCM documentation, how are we doing towards getting to that simple push button, you know I take care of it, securities patches come I don't have to worry about scrambling I've got that taken care of. >> That's nirvana, that's our north star. We're working on that and we're using the Flex Manager as that platform and more and more we're taking those requirements in the Flex Manager and we'll be rolling it out. Our goal is to have that one click upgrade right? That one button, our goal is to be able to do compliance and quick updates, and it's a journey. And it's the most complex part as you know, you mentioned, some older products, it's the most complex part of the solution, is keeping that compliance and that performance where you need it. >> So how do you manage that? I mean as you said it's a huge challenge that your company's facing and yet also all your clients are facing too. >> Well luckily we have a lot smart people. (laughs) and we have great customers. The nice thing you know, Dell's direct, the interaction we've had with customers this week, I mean they're designing with us, they're telling us what they need. And we're not a large large scale business in relative to a server business and using computing. So we have relationships with almost all of our customers. And we go and show them our roadmaps, we go get feedback from them, they help us define what they need and we follow our customers. >> Well it's really interesting, because we know that Dell's turning 35 very soon and middle age is the time where you start to get a little more set in your ways, a little older, a little creakier, but what you're describing is this real collaborative relationship with your customers and not sort of this my way or the highway kind of thing. >> I feel I work in a startup, we're agile, we're listening to our customers, we're doing the right things. We're not focused all just on our business, we're focused on our customer outcomes. We made a big ship this year on my product line of talking about the databases and the certifications and we're really trying to help our customers through those decisions without them having to make all those decisions themselves. >> Yeah, what about the consumption model, some of the other product lines we're talking to are going to manage their services as well as moving towards that OPEX model. How's that fit into the VxFlex? >> Yeah, we're not there yet, of course we're going to lead with our Dell Technologies portfolio, We have some great products in that portfolio. But we'll get there over time. Today, you saw the announcements on day one with VMware, Dell EMC and the cloud platforms. We'll continue to build infrastructure, we'll continue to stay in our lane, where we do really really well and the customers love us. But We'll eventually get to different consumption models. >> So tell us a little bit about this show for you. This is not your first rodeo here at Dell Technologies World. >> And I hope and you're seeing this, this feel like we're one big company now right? We've been three years in the making. And coming to Dell Tech this year, I feel like we're one. And Michael's key note was, the first customer I talked to, you know, everything Michael said, resonated so well with me and so it really feels that way. And just the vibe back there and in the solution expo, it's just, you know at level 10. >> Well right, so we're passed the Dell EMC integration point, but the big thing we've been talking about this week is, you know those seven logos up on the banner behind you there are acting like one. So VxRail designed together, sold together. Can you talk a little bit about where do some of the other pieces of the portfolio fit into place. >> Pivotal Cloud Foundry right? Almost all of us are parting with Pivotal Cloud Foundry and building that stack and offering that service to our customer, you know Secureworks RSA, we all need security right? We're all working there too. And even now, so I work in the PowerEdge team, you know, storage product, so we're working, we're taking PowerEdge and putting it everywhere. So all of our data protection products, RSA, our storage products, we're working PowerEdge everywhere and leveraging that. And the beauty about that is you saw the VxRail ACE announcement right? That's a platform, that's a analytics platform that now we can build on and designing PowerEdge. We can put requirements into PowerEdge to make that a much richer telemetry box and really start getting some analytics in that solve some problems, predictive analysis and things like that. So yeah, it's been fun, I've been on the tip of the spear of this, you know, coming from the storage side, and I'm starting to see it really really come together this year, here at this show. >> Alright, so want to give you the final word, VxFlex I know people, if they went through the expo hall they could see it, touch it and the like. For those that didn't make it to the show, what do you want the key takeaway for VxFlex? >> So we're pure software defined, we're very high performance, we're ideal for your databases, we're ideal for scale, we can scale up to 1000 nodes or higher. And we have many many customers doing that. We have running in the show this week, a database running at six nodes over a million IOPS, sub one millisecond latency. So... >> A good note to end on, (laughs) powerful. >> Bang yeah. (laughs) >> Lewie thank you so much for coming on theCUBE. >> Thank you, appreciate it, it's been fun. >> I'm Rebecca Knight, for Stu Miniman, we will have so much more of day three of theCUBE's live coverage of Dell Technologies World coming up in just a little bit. (techno music)

(light music). >> Live from Las Vegas. It's theCube covering Dell technologies world 2019. Brought to you by Dell Technologies and its ecosystem partners. >> Hello everybody and welcome back to theCube's live coverage of Dell Technologies World here in Las Vegas. I'm your host Rebecca Knight along with my co-host Stu Miniman. We are joined by Travis Vigil. He is the Senior Vice President Product Management at Dell EMC. Thank you so much for coming on theCube, for returning to theCube I should say. >> Thank you so much for having me. >> Here from Austin Texas. >> Yes. Yes I am. >> Mothership. So there is a lot of great storage news so much storage news this week. Break it down for us. What are some of the sort of the headlines that you'd like our viewers to know about? >> Yeah there was a ton this morning in the keynote but for me it was three of the announcements in particular are something that I'm really excited about. The first is that we announced the unity XT which is the next generation platform of our unity product line. We've been shipping unity for a little less than three years. And in that time, we've actually shipped in nearly 80000 units. So it's been very successful for us. It's been known for flexibility, unified block and file, simplicity, value and with this release we're really taking it to the next level. We are increasing the performance entirely new hardware platform. It increases the performance up to 2x versus the previous generation. We're increasing data reduction rates up to five to one data reduction rate. It's NVMe ready and it's also architected for a hybrid cloud world. We call it cloud ready. So that's one thing. The second thing I'm excited about is actually that cloud ready part that I just talked about on unity XT. So we announced Dell EMC Cloud storage services today. And basically what that allows you to do is consume unity, Isilone or power Max as a service with direct connections into multiple public clouds which is really cool. And so if you're a customer like a unity XT customer for example, an awesome use case would be hybrid disaster recovery as a service. You don't have to have a secondary data center and you can actually use a ready native replication from on premises to the cloud. We showed a demonstration on stage where we are actually able to fail over to VMC on AWS automatically across on premises and what is consumed as a service unity XT in the cloud. I'm also excited about this capability because if you look at our Isilon product line, the fact that you can direct connect into multiple different public clouds is really cool because what a lot of people use Isilon for is big data analytics, streaming. A lot of the applications that are driving the unstructured data growth need burst compute. And so if you can sit in a data center right next to these multiple public clouds and be able to pick which compute that you want to use with your Isilon and have a customer be able to consume that as a service that's pretty exciting. So cloud services on the portfolio, a big part of the announcement today that I'm excited about. And the third thing I'm excited about is all the other things we announced around Isilon in general. We announced an entirely new software upgrade, a new OS 1fsa.2. That release increases the scalability of our Isilon clusters from 144 to 252. So big increase. Isilon is already known for having a very big single namespace. And so you might be asking well who really needs 252 nodes in a single cluster? Well believe me when I tell you autonomous driving or connected car, media and entertainment are very interested in this capability from us. So those are the big three for me what we're doing on unity XT, what we're doing in terms of cloud Connectivity and what we're doing with respect to Isilon. >> Travis I wonder if we could zoom out for a second here. I think we're at an interesting transition point when you talk about the storage industry. I think historically, storage is highly fragmented. I had my tier one storage, I had my mid-range storage, we had object storage, we had special HPC storage and there are so many different subcategories that you put in the environment. I wrote an article when Dell bought EMC. I said this is the end of the storage industry as we knew it. And I come to a show like this, cloud, hyper converging infrastructure. All of these pieces, storage is important but you just walk through many of the speeds and feeds and some of the new product lines that come out. But storage at the center and the storage admin, that's what EMC World was that's not what I hear at Dell technologies World. Give us kind of where we are in that transformation and of course I'm not saying that two years from now, we're in a storage-less world and nobody thinks about it 'cause data is more important than ever. >> Absolutely. >> Price capacity points are enabling customers to do more with it. So would love just kind of you to reflect back on where we are and where we're going for the market here. >> Yeah that's an excellent question Stu. I think you're exactly right. The discussions that we're having with customers more and more are centered around what you're trying to do, what business problem are you trying to solve? And you look within the portfolio, there have been places that we've done that before like with Isilon, it was very vertical industry focused. Speaking in the language of the customers around healthcare genomics or media and entertainment or whatever industry vertical we were targeting. More and more for the core I.T. buyer it's I want the infrastructure to work with my ecosystem. I'm investing in VMware so I want VRO plugins or I'm utilizing Ansible as my management and orchestration layer. So I want an Ansible playbook. And so if you look at what we've announced on power Max as part of this show, VRO, CSI and Ansible plugins or adapters for power Macs are a big part of what we're announcing because more and more, the customers that we're talking to want the storage to be good performance, cost effective, autonomous in terms of making a lot of decisions and optimizing itself but they want it to work in the broader ecosystem. So I was just having a conversation with a very large customer over in the EBC area earlier and we were talking about power Max and we were talking about all the cool things and all the new speeds and feeds, start talking about the Ansible playbook and that's when the customer leaned in and was like "Tell me more. "How does that work? "Because we're doing Ansible". So I think you're exactly right. I think whether you talk about management and orchestration or you whether you talk about the Dell Tech cloud platform where you can have storage as a piece of that. The conversation is shifting to a higher level, to the application or business problem level. >> Yeah I love it. Take us a little bit at that application space where to spend a bunch of the conversations talking everything from dev ops to containerization and micro services. When you talk about hybrid cloud. Well if I want similar to what the cloud environment is, that's usually what I'm doing. And sure, the VMware piece plays into that too but usually modernization ties into it and I know I've been hearing that story quite a lot bit more when I talked to storage people today. >> Yeah absolutely. I think the dev ops conversation with storage admins is probably one of the most popular conversation we're having. What are you doing for CSI plugins? We just announced one for our extreme IO product line, a lot of interest, a lot of conversations around that. And I think the conversation is also shifting to help me manage it, help me get me more intelligence about my storage estate versus speeds and feeds so one of the key conversations we have with customers is around a capability we have which is called Cloud IQ which I like to call it a health tracker for your storage estate. It gives you statistics, it gives you capacity trending. It gives you performance trending, it uses A.I. to predict capacity spikes or performance anomalies. And it's really an awesome tool for our customers because customers that use that are able to resolve issues in their environment three times faster than customers that don't. So I think you're absolutely right Stu, the conversation is more about how do I use the storage array in my environment? What ecosystems am I supporting? So it works with all the other stuff that I have to deal with. >> So digital transformation has been the buzzword of the last five years and the theme of this year's real transformation. I want to talk a little bit about implementation of these big technology initiatives. How do you work with customers to define exactly what they need, gather, garner support and make sure everyone is pulling in the same direction and wants the same thing? And then really bring it together. I mean is that, first of all, a challenge? And then second of all, walk us through the steps of what you do. >> Yeah I think to the earlier conversation there is a spectrum of conversations that we're having with customers and as Dell Technologies, we talk to customers big and small and we talk to customers who want to procure a solution or they want to procure an array. And I think the common thread in the conversations we're having is, give me the information that I need so that I can easily integrate it into my environment. And we're not out of the world where people care about IOPS and latency and all the speeds and feeds in the storage array. But increasingly there's customers are like "Yeah, yeah I need that "but I need you to tell me how it works "in my oracle environment "or my SAP environment". And so you can look at a lot of the solutions that Dell Technologies is bringing together via our solutions group. We've brought out an A.I. solution and with computing, networking and storage. We're focusing on SAP as a high value workload where customers again, compute networking and storage how do you bring it all together and kind of t shirt size the different solutions. So you know I think that if I look at it from a product lens that's how we're approaching it. There's also a services lens to look at it which is there's many customers that still want to do it themselves. And there's many customers that say "Hey can I get a managed service? "Can you just do it for me?" So we have a broad spectrum of customers and many customers that are on different places on that journey but it's definitely the conversations no matter where you're starting are all trending to, I want you to do more so I can focus on my business and my applications. >> So Travis really we've merged through the largest acquisition in tech history. You came from the Dell side. >> I did. >> The Dell storage side so would just love to get real quick your perspective on being in the Dell storage team to now being in the Dell Technologies, Dell EMC storage team and what that impact's been when you're meeting with customers that huge booster into the enterprise space too. >> Yeah it's been an amazing journey over these last two plus years. I guess going on three years now and I took a little break from being outside of the product group and I came back about a year ago. And so you're right I ran product management for Dell storage for quite some time and then I had the great opportunity to come back and run product management for all of Dell EMC storage. And you know I think there's a lot of stuff that's the same. We're still driving the roadmap, we're still prioritizing customer needs. We're still striving to provide the best possible solution for customers in what we do as a storage array or what we do in a broader solution. But you know the coming together of Dell and EMC from my perspective, it's been a great success. We had a lot of strength on the compute side, we had a small storage business. EMC had a large storage business. And so the combination of the two it's just been like chocolate and peanut butter. I mean it's been really good and I'm amazed at all the conversations and all the customers that have invested in Dell EMC for their storage infrastructure. When we have some of these customer events and you have name brand universities or large government entities and they're there giving you feedback about how they're using Isilon or ECS or whatever in their environment it's just a really impressive portfolio that we have and it's been an absolute joy. >> Well that's great. Next year I want the Dell EMC candy bar. So there's your next product idea (laughs). >> With chocolate and peanut butter. Yeah I would want it too. >> Travis thank you so much it was a pleasure having you on the cube. >> Alright. Awesome. Thank you very much. >> I'm Rebecca Knight for Stu Miniman, there is so much more of theCube's live coverage from Dell Technologies world coming up just after this. (light music)

>> Live from Seattle, Washington. It's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat. The cloud-native computing foundation and it's ecosystem partners. [Techno Music] >> Hey welcome back everyone. We're here live in Seattle for KubeCon and CloudNativeCon. It's theCUBE's three-days coverage live, I'm John Furrier, your host, with Stu Miniman. Our next guest is Greg Muscurella who's the Vice President of products at Nutanix. Welcome to theCUBE. >> Thanks for having me John. >> Good to see you. CUBE alumni. So you guys are doing Kubernetes. You're in the throws of all the enterprise. You've got the hyper converged action. A lot of that happening here. >> Yeah. >> So what's new, what's the update? What's going on with Kubernetes and CNCF? >> Well we're using this as an opportunity to talk about the cloud data stack that we've built on top of our core HCF platform. So all the goodness that you get with the easy management. You have storage availability etc. We've layered on top of that a couple things. Certainly, we have our own Kubernetes distribution called Karbon. Very easy to play. >> With a K. >> Karbon with a K. Of course we've got to keep with the theme, right? And, get a high availability production-ready cluster going in a matters of 10 minutes or so. Five minutes... Or two minutes to fill out the form and a few more minutes for it to deploy. That's the easy piece. But really we're designing this for enterprise applications. So it's about persistence as well. So we have our database management services, right? So Arrow which is the other product which manages everything from your oracle databases to MySQL post threads that you'd see more developers using to your object storage with our Buckets product. And then going on to our Epoch monitoring and management. >> You guys have had great success with the product. What's the use case? Why are customers looking for? What is the use case for your customers? Obviously, you got a great infrastructure positioning. You have network storage and compute all keys to the enterprise. Where's the Kubernetes fit into it? Developer? What's the use case? >> So first of all, Kubernetes and cloud-native is a mode of developing applications to create really scalable distributed systems. We are, I mean, at our core, we are distributed systems from compute and storage. This is a way of building on top of that. And letting enterprises really build out a cloud-native application using these new types of tooling. >> Yeah, Greg, one of the things that struck me in the keynote this morning is the stuff that they said that "40% of applications that are being run in "Kubernetes are statefull." Which I remember is one of those things we've struggled with for a bit and people are wondering oh where does state? >> Yeah >> Does it belong there or do I do something different with storage? I'm curious, what you're hearing from your customers and how that fits into what you're doing? >> Right. So Kubernetes and the ecosystem is evolving so quickly. If you look at where we are with Pet sets to Stateful sets to all the things you are going to do to actually manage or talk to storage underneath it, it's evolved very rapidly over the last couple years. So I think what we're seeing is people who are very comfortable running their compute inside and maybe still wanting to talk to storage outside. Whether it be object storage or database that lives outside maybe on virtual machines. We're seeing some of those services migrate to be more native within Kubernetes. So like using a CSI or something to talk to the storage. And now we have some customers that are putting databases inside as well, right? So it's a matter of how mature you are, how adventurous you are and how much you really need that reliability out of your database or whether you need the speeded deployment and ease. >> Yeah. So Greg we talked some at the dot net show in London just a couple of weeks ago. When you talk to your customers, how do they look at Kubernetes? Is this something that there's an oh well I'm going to be using Amazon and Microsoft and therefore it's there? How much does this fit into their hybrid cloud environment? I would think that would be a big piece of your story. >> It absolutely is. And there's obviously a lot of news around multi cloud and hybrid cloud and that's what's really special about Kubernetes and containers as well as the standard interfaces we have for storage and object and databases is that you now have this sort of portability. And so I can actually run the same thing in the Cloud. I can take that and run the exact same load down in my own data center without changing anything out. And the key to that is of course open and standard APIs, right? Of course my data has to be there as well and that can be difficult to move and migrate. But the same application structure, the same development and paradigm supply both in the Cloud and as well as on-prem. And that's what I'm seeing is a lot of excitement to be able to repurpose that as well as an answer to multi cloud or hybrid cloud. >> What's the workload means in terms of data? Because data becomes the critical asset in Cloud. Stateful data has been a big discussion. Where is that here in CNCF? What's your take on the status of how that's playing out? The need in the marketplace? Ready for primetime? What's the evolution of that piece in the Stateful applications? >> Yeah, I think that with the CSI and going GA and 1.13, I think we're seeing some maturity for that. Not everything will be... Not all storage will be addressed over HTTP. A lot of it is going to be through traditional storage implications or interfaces. And I think what's interesting is seeing the move to try to meet enterprise developers or application developers. Kind of where they are. Like if you have an existing app and you need to move it to containerized application, it's hard to eradicate NFS. It's hard to eradicate block storage and go to something complete out of that. And also I think there's some good reasons to use those types of things, especially if you're running a database itself. So if you want to run a database in Kubernetes you're going to need something more robust than object storage, right? So, that evolution, that maturity has been really fast and it's been interesting to see the Kubernetes community adopt that and then customers take advantage of it. >> It's been a top conversation. >> Greg, I wonder if we can sort of zoom out for a little bit here. >> Sure. >> We're talking about Kubernetes. What does cloud-native mean in the Nutanix context and what you're hearing from your customers? >> What does cloud-native mean? Well I don't think it's unique from our perspective. I think it, again, it comes back to for some people it's going to be a 12 factor application. It's going to be using very standard and open APIs to build those applications. And then being pretty smart about how you address things that might tie you into any particular or any particular operating procedure, right? So we see, for instance some good examples around pop-ups or streaming data. We see a lot of people are very rigorous about adopting Kafka, all right. They want to use Kafka APIs. Even though there's a whole bunch of other services that we use and their favorite cloud file or whatever because they are so interested in that multi cloud or hybrid cloud then they are going to chose their APIs pretty carefully. So I think that's maybe the only thing that's a little bit unique in terms of our customer base. Is it's not a lot of start ups that are like, "I don't care, I'm worried about survival. "It's all product market fix. Let me go fast "and if I get locked into any particular vendor, "that's fine, I don't care. "That's tomorrow's problem." Right? We are enterprises, right? And these are guys who are jaded, have experienced the contract renewals with some of their favorite vendors, right? And they don't want to relive those mistakes again. And so they are very interested in having a very open ecosystem to play in. And we support that fully. >> Yeah. >> And stability, too, with the workload. They want mission-critical workloads to run. >> Absolutely. >> Quickly. >> It's interesting. I hear you talk about APIs and we look at something might be good for a bit but we get a sprawl of every technology. >> Sure. >> We have server sprawl. We had VM sprawl. And many ways we get API sprawl. >> Absolutely. >> Every single environment I work into. What's Nutanix's position on how do you manage APIs? How do you make sure you're just not creating something completely separately? >> Well I think, first of all, we really focus on the core APIs, right? So there's certain things that you just have to get these primitives absolutely right. And I applaud the Kubecon community saying the similar thing. So we do that. Right? We've got to get identity right. You got to get your data access layers right. And you have to get a lot of your provisioning things right. Once you start getting beyond that, you're into more esoteric lands and things don't tend to be as tight in, so we can be a little bit more exploratory on other APIs that aren't as core to the surface. So that's the attitude we take, which I think is similar to what we see in the community as well. I mean if you look at how many projects we got over this morning in the keynotes, it's just like a... >> The CNCF is up to 35 projects, I'm told. So. >> Right, and then tons of things that are not in CNCF that are also being used. Right? So it's a proliferation of things that all hope to be successful and kind of become the standard. >> So what's the update with Nutanix? Give us a quick company overview. Get the plug-in. What's going on with Nutanix? What's the big focus? >> Well focus continues to be just modernizing the data center. Right? Making all these applications easier to run, easier to manage and easier to operate. And that's what we're built on, right? That's the core. Again, for us it's going up the stack. It's going into the networking layer. Making sure micro segmentation can happen quickly and easily. We're not needing a Phd. or heavy lifting of things without taking over your entire network. And going up the stack with our cloud-native application stack. >> One of the things that's been clear in the industry in the past six months, certainly hardcore, we saw it come in before with hybrid, the validation of the on-premises. Right? So on-premises had at least low latency, any mission-critical workloads, aren't always going to the Cloud that fast, so the on-premises and on Cloud dynamic is super important for enterprises that are big enterprises. Not like the small, medium sized enterprises. But like the big ones have legacy and containers are nice fit there. So kind of a nice situation for you guys. How does that all play out? Do you agree with that, or? >> Yeah, so I think there's a lot of work loads that are going to, if they're not already in the public Cloud, they're going to go back, they're going to be built in the public Cloud. I mean if I have a gaming application and world-wide customers, I need to be in a presences where they can get me quickly. But similarly there's a lot of applications that are best on-prem. Whether it be because I have regulatory constraints or just that's where my data is and that's where my systems kind of come back together. I need to build my application where my data is because it's a lot easier to move the app in many cases than to move the data. And a lot of people don't want to give up that ownership and that kind of control. They are uncomfortable with moving their data that's not in their four walls. And so we've seen if you look at the CNCF survey data and you look at where Kubernetes is actually being run you'll find that a lot of Kubernetes is being run on-prem. Like some 60% of respondents are actually running Kubernetes on-prem. Now 89% are running in the Cloud which makes sense. As you start looking at folks who are much more mature, so they've been running Kubernetes for a little bit longer, their fleet size is 1,000 machines or more, we actually see them increasing their running on-prem as well. So it's the idea of having the same workloads, the same APIs that can work, start developing in the Cloud, move that application or the exact same application on-prem, work with my on-prem data, I think is very attractive. >> It's interesting, too, we hear a lot of people talk, "Hey, I'm running Kubernetes." Well, great. That's cool. Like what are you running it for? >> Yeah. >> So this gets down to the what is Kubernetes good for? >> Right. >> You're thoughts. >> Yeah, I think it started where people are comfortable with are really Stateless applications. Right? So it's a lot of filter on a pipe. It's a lot of things that are going through a line of some sort. We certainly see a lot of our IoT applications being built on that which is essentially that, right? So there's some intelligence at the edge. We're gathering the data but we're doing some intelligent things with it. Doing some inference there. Filtering the data. Bring it back to the data center. And then doing additional things on that front. So there's both data gathering as well as execution happening on the edge. So that's a big piece of it in our market. And then back to pipeline just kind of core data services. >> We've been following you guys at Nutanix. You guys are doing great. A great product. Now cloud-native is here. What's on the portfolio roadmap for SaaS and cloud-native for you guys? What's the priorities? >> So continuing to fill out the portfolio so that customers can really easily run whatever application they want. So we want those primitives to be there for them. So database storage we've filled out. The monitoring piece and the observability piece is actually really interesting. And so we have a SaaS service that lets you monitor your clusters no matter where they may be. So if you're running them in your favorite cloud provider, fantastic. You can monitor those as well as what you might be running in whatever your on-prem data center is. We have plans to actually let that be run on-prem as well because again some of our customers, especially who are running dark sites, don't want to have any of there information, even observability data go out. So we are trying to serve that customer that has pretty robust needs both around their computer environemnet but also around their data and how they manage it and protect their data. And that's really our critical customer. >> Great. Thanks for coming on theCUBE. We really appreciate the time and the insight. Nutanix here on theCUBE. John Furrier with Stu Minium. Three days of live coverage of KUBECON, and CloudNativeCon here in Seattle 2018. 8,000 people. Getting larger every time. It's a global conference. Back with more coverage after this short break. [Techno Music]