>> Live from Barcelona, Spain, It's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon + CloudNativeCon Europe 2019. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, to theCUBE coverage here at KubeCon + CloudNativeCon. I'm Stu Miniman, my co-host is Corey Quinn. And happy to welcome back to the program Mark Shuttleworth who os the CEO of Canonical. Of course, the orange shirts of Ubuntu, are seen all throughout the show. Mark, thank you so much for joining us, great so see you. >> Great to see you. >> All right, so for years, actually, we've had these conversations at the OpenStack Summit. It's interesting that, every time you mention it around this show you get snark online, as like, it is dead, Kubernetes killed it and it's like wait, no, no, you know we're talking about, a couple of open-source projects. I've been talking to people, especially in the telco space, that's like, oh yeah, well no, we just run OpenStack underneath and Kubernetes on top and put all things together. Give us a little bit of your broad view of some of these big trends, and open-source monoliths and microservices and all these pieces, all kind of fly together. >> Yeah, I think if your in the Reddit SubChannels, then you know it can feel a bit like turf war, and gangster-type, free software riffing, right. But the reality is, OpenStack solves business problems for people. They want large scale, virtualized infrastructure, that's cheaper than VMware. We are deploying OpenStacks in enterprise environments at double the scale and double the speed, in other words, like twice as many every month, as we were a year ago. I think people have gotten comfortable with the idea that Kubernetes is an application operations construct. I think we will see virtualization blur into the Kubernetes lives, but mainly for security reasons. So I want deeper isolation of applications that come from third-party vendors, for example. And I'm willing to trade performance for isolation, in circumstances where I am bringing in third-party code into my private infrastructure. After we see a couple of significant security compromises, I mean, we saw the GitHub compromise. If you shave that Yak, it gets to a very uncomfortable place of, what are we actually running as root all over our data centers with Docker and Docker Hub. So, people are going to want that kind of isolation of containers, the Kata Containers work is going to bring that. But that's very different to the proposition of, essentially, give me large scale, machine virtualization which OpenStack addresses. OpenStack hasn't done itself any favors, don't need to go into that here. But nonetheless, as far as we're concerned, it's straight forward to deliver large scale, low cost, enterprise virtualization infrastructure for telco's or IT use cases. >> Let's get into this ecosystem here. I want to say the Cloud Native ecosystem, and I say that specifically because there are some that look at this and they say, oh, there's dozens of projects now, Kubernetes is a platform against platform. Somebody even mentioned the word big tent once. We've seen some projects merging, we've seen some various pieces. >> I saw making a bigger tent on the keynote and I was like, not my favorite choice of words. >> I seem to remember a certain article that you wrote poking a whole in the big tent thing. What's the same, what's different? What's your take on this? Is it an ecosystem? Is it Kubernetes and friends, as Corey has liked to say here? What's your take? >> Look, I think we're still trying to figure out what are the appropriate labels to attach to this kind of forum, it is a forum, right. There is a tremendous amount of value attached to being here, to the ideas that are getting bounced about. But I wouldn't call it a simple community in the sort of, traditional open-source sense. The reality is there's very serious money behind every, sort of project that's been framed as a community project. This is a new kind of consortium. And that brings with it certain, delicate, political posturing and so on. But, nonetheless, it's a valuable place to be. It's definitely staking out important concepts and operational platforms, ideas, regimes, whatever you want to call it. This is going to be a fun week. >> I started off my career in the Linux world as a grumpy Unix administrator because there really wasn't any other kind. Then I started dipping my toes into the Linux world and something struck me, almost immediately, about Ubuntu. Was how welcoming everyone was in the community. There was no such thing as a stupid question. I asked the kind of questions you would expect from someone working on a computer, wearing a suit. People were very eager to embrace newcomers into that. It was one of the absolute best things that I saw coming out of Canonical, in addition to the software itself. I love that you're here as a part of this. What is the larger picture? What do you see in the Cloud Native ecosystem that's resonating with what Canonical's doing? >> So, the big thing that we do is, essentially, try to figure out where, what's possible with open-source that's hard to do. And then make it really straight forward so that more people can do the important stuff easily. That doesn't stop people from doing all the crazy stuff at the periphery that you can do with Ubuntu. It's generally easier with Ubuntu than any other platform. But we try to make the really most important things really easy for everybody. That's the first thing. The second thing is, we're a little non-judgemental about the fact that there are different perspectives on the same stuff. In the Ubuntu ecosystem, we make a point of saying that GNOME guys, and the KDE guys, and the LXQt, and the MATE guys. The Ubuntu ecosystem is where they actually meet to hash out how they can do stuff in a way that means users get a real choice between those. There's a very similar role for us to play in an environment like this. It's kind of acronym soup out there. Like 50 new projects every KubeCon. They're all interesting, they're all important, there's a lot of overlap between them. There's work for us to do in figuring out which ones are going to be really more important in the tent. We did that very effectively with OpenStack. The people who rode the OpenStack wave with us haven't had to abandon their OpenStacks. Because the stuff that we really chose to make central and easy, turned out to be the stuff that was the important poles in the tent. And we'll do exactly the same stuff here with Kubernetes. So, to put that into context, it's been real fun to be on the booth. We had, just tons, of people coming up and saying thank you for Microk8s. Microk8s is a single package of Kubernetes, that works in lots Linux distributions. It gives you, in about a minute, it gives you a standard Kubernetes environment, that's pure upstream. That, for a developer, just let's you get productive immediately. Figure out these new development application operations, constructs. You can use it on an airplane, you can use it on a train. Of course, it's compatible with all of the public clouds so that's the second thing that we're doing. We work with Amazon, with the EKS team, I spoke at their event on Monday. We work with Azure, the AKS team, we work with Google, we work with Oracle, we work with IBM. Essentially making sure that all of them offer Ubuntu worker nodes for their Kubernetes, SaaS offerings. That means that the developer who's doing stuff on their workstation with Microk8s can take those containers straight to any other public clouds. So, we're not trying to force people to use a particular solution, we're saying, in all of those environments, there are going to be choices people have. We want to make that as easy as possible for them. We want to avoid unnecessary friction in that process. That kind of underlining culture is coming through in this forum, as well. >> We've had many conversations about how you've always tried to make the job of that developer really easy. One of the things we always look at on this show is how much of it is the infrastructure people, or the platform underneath and the developer, and how much are they coming together. Anything different about this ecosystem? >> Very much so, yeah. >> Or your customers here that you can share? >> Kubernetes is an application construct. You can think of it as a next generation message bus. It's how components of an application find each other, communicate with each other, essentially, coordinate with each other. That makes it very tightly woven in to the developer experience. By contrast, you can be sitting writing a Java application inside a bank and not know or care whether it's going to be running on a physical machine, a virtual machine or an OpenStack cloud. You just don't know, you don't care. It's too far away from the application. Kubernetes is right there. I think that's one of the really interesting things is that it's bringing those infrastructure brains together with the application, app dev brains, in a very interesting way. It's going to be challenging. I wouldn't underestimate it, there are a lot of people, sort of, wondering around here, feeling a little confused, but that's okay. Do you know what I mean, the stuff shakes out. >> So, something that's been a recurring theme here has been the idea of going in a multi-cloud direction. Where people are talking about wanting to build workloads that they can seamlessly deploy across different providers. People talk about that, periodically, as a strategic goal but I'm not seeing people do it very often in the real world. You're in a much better position than a lot of us, to see that. Is that something you're seeing people moving towards as an adoption? >> Well, yes. Because we work with all of the major public clouds to optimize Ubuntu there, in a way that I don't think any other Linux does. You get an optimized Amazon Ubuntu on Amazon. You get an optimized Azure Ubuntu on Azure, and so on. >> Going very deep in the Amazon ecosystem. Most of my customers are using Ubuntu far ahead of anything else out there. >> That's right. >> And it's the right answer for what they're doing. >> That's right. It gives them, essentially, the best of what Amazon's offering, it still gives them the ability to feel like if they want to go somewhere else, they can. And that actually works well for Amazon. In the early days, I think there was a little tension between us and the cloud guys, because they were saying, look, if people use Ubuntu then they can go somewhere else. Yes, but in a sense, that makes them more likely to be more relaxed about starting wherever they choose to start. We don't advise enterprises as to which cloud to use. We advise them to engage with those clouds and figure out their differences, they are different. Amazon's really good at some things that are different, to what Microsoft is good at. Oracle is really good at some things which are different too. And what we're starting to see is the level of maturity in the enterprise governance process. They know they want to work with multiple clouds. They initially thought that was a straight kind of commodity exchange, competition thing. They now realize that it's a bit richer than that. That there are actually business reasons to have deeper relationships with particular clouds, based on what those clouds are prioritizing, and what they are prioritizing. So, we're not going to say you should use this cloud, you should use that cloud. Obviously, we can draw a distinction between the clouds where we're deeply engaged and the clouds where, you know, where you just don't have the benefit of that. But, more importantly we can say, you know, here are the set of practices that you can adopt internally that will give you comfort that your getting the best out of those clouds, the ones that you've chosen. And you have the portability that you really need. The key turns out be, enabling your developers, to use multiple clouds and challenging the developers to do different phases of the development life cycle on different clouds. Develop on your private cloud or your work station, use Microk8s, for example. Do tests on one cloud. Do staging and production on a different cloud. Now you already know that that whole, seamless ecosystem works. If you want to go use a high value, proprietary function, effectively on a cloud, that's a business decision and it's not a bad business decision. There's some spectacular capabilities from Amazon that are unique to Amazon. Or from Microsoft that are unique, or from Oracle that are unique to Oracle. They're spectacular. Those are business decisions to use them. There's other stuff that effectively you can give yourself optionality on. I wouldn't be black and white about that, put yourself in a position to make smart choices. And our best customers are getting are getting there. PayPal, they're operating on Ubuntu in a very sophisticated way, across multiple public clouds and private infrastructure. >> All right, so Mark we're five years into Kubernetes now. We've seen adoption grow, people feel there's a certain level of maturity here. There's always that concern that we've reached that peak and we're about to fall off the cliff. What do we need to worry about? What does the ecosystem need to do to make sure we continue along the stability and security that customers are looking for. >> There will be an over shoot regardless. I don't think there's any sort of leadership or governance approach that could avoid that. It's a little bit like, if your stock is going crazy. On the one hand, you're kind of happy. On the other hand, if you feel it's over valued it's a difficult sort of thing to say. You need to say, guys, you know what I mean, we're humans too. We've got our challenges to work through. And no one likes volatility, but too a certain extent, there's always speculation and over shoot, and over-enthusiasm, and hype. Kubernetes will over shoot. There's a bunch of emperors walking around here that, frankly, have no clothes. My job, our job, is very calmly, to sort through the wheat from the chaff. Make sure that it's possible for people to experiment with everything. But, that the stuff that we think has legs, effectively, is nicely integrated for people, that they have that for the long term, they won't regret things. We have a good track record of doing that. We've done it in the Linux desktop. We did it in OpenStack, we're doing it in public cloud. We've done it here in the Cloud Native world. I'd say things like AI are going in the same direction. Again, tons of complexity, tons of new options. Helping people effectively navigate through that is what we do very well. >> Yeah, one of the questions that I started to see as well, as we look at the way that these technologies continue to evolve, has been that, for better or worse, when developers are writing applications now and even infrastructure people are working with a lot of the things they care about. What operating system, let alone what distribution they're using, is increasingly slipping beneath the waves. People don't think about that as a primary area of focus anymore. And as, I guess, of the foundational Linux vendors in this space, how are you seeing that evolving? And how does Canonical remain relevant in a world where suddenly, people in a serverless future, I just throw some code over somewhere else and it runs is the limit of where most companies get involved. >> Yes, of course, we can point to the servers. And on the servers, we can point to the operating systems and inside the containers, we can point to the operating systems and underneath the serverless code, we can point to the language runtimes. So, the reality is that those things matter less and less to the developer. >> Yes. >> They still matter to the institution. So, I'm super comfortable with the language that says, the OS doesn't matter. What it means is that that whole tangle is getting professionalized and abstracted. But to be confident in the abstractions, someone needs to do a lot of work. I know how much work we do with Google, with Amazon, with Microsoft, with Oracle, with IBM, to make sure that nobody else has to feel like the OS matters. That that stuff essentially just works. You can extend that out to what we do with VMware, what we do, essentially, on bare-metal, what we do on developer workstations, what we do with the Windows crowd, effectively, and Windows subsystem for Linux, so that developers really can just build on Windows subsystem for Linux, Ubuntu, effectively, and ship that container straight to Amazon EKS and have it just work. There are a ton of little lies that have to line up. Containers are all kind of a fiction. The fiction breaks if those pieces don't line up. So, being Ubuntu, effectively and being being able to be consistent in all of those places, is a ton of work to enable it not to matter for anybody upstairs. That's allowing developers to go faster. It's allowing them to be more productive. It's allowing them to be more heroic. And it's allowing the people who do worry about the middleware to have far fewer nights scratching their heads as to, why didn't this version of this library tie up to that driver with that kernel. All of those things are still there. When you drop that container onto Amazon, we've got to connect the GPGPU in the hardware, through the hypervisor, to the guest OS, up into the container. And there's code getting injected all the way up. It's only the fact that we can typically have Ubuntu everywhere there that, essentially, allows those pieces to line up without some spectacular fireworks. It satisfies me when people say they don't have to worry about that. >> It's a victory condition. >> Mark, I want to give you the final word. What should we be looking for, from Canonical, through the rest of the year? >> So, for us, this has been a big year in terms of visibility in the enterprise. In terms of penetration, Ubuntu's everywhere in the Fortune 500, everywhere in the Global 2000. What's changed this year, is the CIO suddenly is seeing Ubuntu on their desk. For two reasons, one is IBM Red Hat. The CIO suddenly wants to know, okay, what does this mean? What else are we running? Where else can we get 24/7 SLAs? Where else can we get long term commitments to Linux and so on? And the fact is Ubuntu's already in the building so that's one, sort of, easy connect. The other thing is, there's really interesting, new workloads that Ubuntu leads in the enterprise. Obviously the container story, the multi-cloud story, edge. It's not just telcos. Every retailer, every logistics company, anybody that has physical distribution is now trying to say, well how can I automate compute in my physical world, effectively. So, edge is super interesting and IoT beyond that. People transforming businesses through taking a Raspberry Pi with Ubuntu and putting a snap on it is really, really cool. Which of those is going to drive the biggest headlines or the scariest headlines, I can't tell you. We're just trying to take care of security, performance and operations across all of them. >> All right, well, Mark Shuttleworth, always a pleasure to catch up, thank you so much for the updates. >> Great to see you. >> All right, for Corey Quinn, I'm Stu Miniman. We'll be back with lots more coverage here from KubeCon + CloudNativeCon 2019 in Barcelona, Spain. Thanks for watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>> Live, from the Seattle, Washington. It's theCUBE, covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon, North America 2018, brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and it's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back everyone. We're live here in Seattle for theCUBE's exclusive coverage of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2018. I'm John Furrier at Stuart Miniman. Our next guest Stephan Fabel, who is the Director of Product Management at Canonical. CUBE alumni, welcome back. Good to see you. >> Thank you. Good to see you too. Thanks for having me. >> You guys are always in the middle of all the action. It's fun to talk to you guys. You have a pulse on the developers, you have pulse on the ecosystem. You've been deep in it for many, many years. Great value. What's hot here, what's the announcement, what's the hard news? Let's get to the hard news out of the way. What's happening? What's happening here at the show for you guys? >> Yeah, we've had a great number of announcements, a great number of threads of work that came into fruition over the last couple of months, and now just last week where we announced hardware reference architectures with our hardware partners, Dell and SuperMicro. We announced ARM support, ARM64 support for Kubernetes. We released our version 1.13 of our Charmed Distribution of Kubernetes, last week And we also released, very proud to release, MicroK8s. Kubernetes in a single snap for your workstation in the latest release 1.13. >> Maybe explain that, 'cause we often talk about scale, but there is big scale, and then we're talking about edge, we're talking about so many of these things. >> That's right. >> That small scale is super important, so- >> It really is, it really is, so, MicroK8s came out of this idea that we want to enable a developer to just quickly standup a Kubernetes cluster on their workstation. And it really came out of this idea to really enable, for example, AIML work clouds, locally from development on the workstation all the way to on-prem and into the public cloud. So that's kind of where this whole thing started. And it ended up being quite obvious to us that if we do this in a snap, then we actually can also tie this into appliances and devices at the edge. Now we're looking at interesting new use cases for Kubernetes at the edge as an actual API end point. So it's a quite nice. >> Stephan talk about ... I want to take a step back. There's kind of dynamics going on in the Kubernetes wave, which by the way is phenomenal, 8000 people here at KubeCon, up from 4000. It's got that hockey stick growth. It's almost like a Moore's Law, if you will, for the events. You guys have been around, so you have a lot of existing big players that have been in the space for a while, doing a lot of work around cloud, multi-cloud, whatever ... That's the new word, but again, you guys have been there. You got like the Cisco's of the world, you guys, big players actively involved, a lot of new entrants coming in. What's your perspective of what's happening here? A lot of people looking at this scratching their head saying: Okay I get Kubernetes, I get the magic. Kubernetes enables a lot of things. What's the impact to me? What's in it for me as an enterprise or a developer? How do you guys see this market place developing? What's really going on here? >> Well I think that the draw to this conference and to technology and all the different vendors et cetera, it's ultimately a multi-cloud experience, right? It is about enabling workload portability and enabling the operator to operate Kubernetes, independently of where that is being deployed. That's actually also the core value proposition of our charmed Kubernetes. The idea that a single operational paradigm allows you to experience, to deploy, lifecycle manage and administer Kubernetes on-prem, as well as any of the public clouds, as well as on other virtual substrates, such as VMware. So ultimately I think the consolidation of application delivery into a single container format, such as Docker and other compatible formats, OCI formats right? That was ultimately a really good thing, 'cause it enabled that portability. Now I think the question is, I know how to deploy my applications in multiple ways, 'cause it's always the same API, right? But how do I actually manage a lot of Kubernetes clusters and a lot of Kubernetes API end points all over the place? >> So break down the hype and reality, because again, a lot of stuff looks good on paper. Love the soundbites of people saying, "Hey, Kubernetes," all this stuff. But people admitting some things that need to be done, work areas. Security is a big concern and people are working on that. Where is the reality? Where does the rubber meet the road when it comes down to, "Okay, I'm an enterprise. What am I buying into with Kubernetes? How do I get there?" We heard Lyft take an approach that's saying, "Look, it solved one problem." Get a beachhead and take the incremental approach. Where's the hype, where's the reality? Separate that for us. >> I think that there is certainly a lot of hype around the technology aspect of Kubernetes. Obviously containerization is invoked. This is how developers choose to engage in application development. We have Microservices architecture. All of those things we're very well aware of and have been around for quite some time and in the conversation. Now looking at container management, container orchestration at scale, it was a natural fit for something like Kubernetes to become quite popular in this space. So from a technology perspective I'm not surprised. I think the rubber meets the road, as always, in two things: In economics and in operations. So if I can roll out more Kubernetes clusters per day, or more containers per day, then my competitor ... I gain a competitive advantage, that the cost per container is ultimately what's going to be the deciding factor here. >> Yeah, Stephan, when I think about developers how do I start with something and then how do I scale it out in the economics of that? I think Canonical has a lot of experience with that to share. What are you seeing ... What's the same, what's different about this ecosystem, CloudNative versus, when we were just talking about Linux or previous ways of infrastructure? >> Well I think that ultimately Kubernetes, in and of itself, is a mechanism to enable developers. It plays one part in the whole software development lifecycle. It accelerates a certain part. Now it's on us, distributors of Kubernetes, to ensure that all the other portions of this whole lifecycle and ecosystem around Kubernetes, where do I deploy it? How do I lifecycle manage it? If there's a security breach like last Monday, what happens to my existing stack and how does that go down? That acceleration is not solved by Kubernetes, it's solved for Kubernetes. >> Your software lives in lots and lots of environments. Maybe you can help clarify for people trying to understand how Kubernetes fits, and when you're playing with the public cloud, your Kubernetes versus their Kubernetes. The distinction I think is, there's a lot of nuance there that people may need help with. >> That's true, yeah. So I think that, first of all, we always distance ourself from the notion of having our Kubernetes. I think we have a distribution of Kubernetes. I think there is conformance, tests that are in place that they're in place for a reason. I think it is the right approach, and we won't install a fourth version of Kubernetes anytime soon. Certainly, that is one of the principles we adhere to. What is different about our distribution of Kubernetes is the operational tooling and the ability to really cookie-cutter out Kubernetes clusters that feel identical, even though they're distributed and spread across multiple different substrates. So I think that is really the fundamental difference of our Kubernetes distribution versus others that are out there on the market. >> The role of developers now, 'cause obviously you're seeing a lot of different personas emerging in this world. I'm just going to lay them out there and I want to get your reaction. The classic application developer, the ones who are sitting there writing code inside a company. It could be a consumer company like Lyft or an enterprise company that needs ... They're rebuilding inside, so it's clear that CIOs or enterprises, CXOs or whatever the title is, they're bringing more software in-house, bringing that competitive advantage under application development. You have the IT pro expert, practitioner kind of role, classic IT, and then you got the opensource community vibe, this show. So you got these three things inter-playing with each other, this show, to me feels a lot like an opensource show, which it is, but it also feels a lot like an IT show. >> Which it also is. >> It also is, and it feels like an app development show, which it also is. So, opportunity, challenge, is this a marketplace condition? What's you thoughts on these kind of personas? >> Well I think it's really a question of how far are you willing to go in your implementation of devops cultural change, right? If you look at that notion of devops and that movement that has really taken ahold in people's minds and hearts over the last couple of years, we're still far off in a lot of ways and a lot of places, right? Even the places who are saying they're doing devops, they're still quite early, if at all, on that adoption curve. I think bringing operators, developers and IT professionals together in a single show is a great way for the community and for the market to actually engage in a larger devops conversation, without the constraint of the individual enterprise that those teams find themselves in. If you can just talk about how you should do something better and how would that work, and there is other kinds of personas and roles at the same table, it is much better that you have the conversation without the constraint of like a deadline or a milestone, or some outage somewhere. Something is always going on. Being able to just have that conversation around a technology and really say, "Hey, this is going to be the one, the vehicle that we use to solve this problem and further that conversation," I think it's extremely powerful. >> Yeah, and we always talk about who's winning and who's losing. It's what media companies do. We do it on theCUBE, we debate it. At the end of the day we always like ... There's no magic quadrant for this kind of market, but the scoreboard can be customers. Amazon's got over 5000 reputable customers. I don't know how many CNCF has. It's probably a handful, not 5000. The customer implications are really where this is going. Multi-cloud equals choice. What's your conversations like with customers? What do you see on the customer landscape in terms of appetite, IQ, or progress for devops? We were talking, not everyone's on server lists yet and that's so obvious that's going to be a big thing. Enterprises are hot right now and they want the tech. Seeing the cloud growth, where's your customer-base? What are those conversations like? Where are they in the adoption of CloudNative? >> It's an extremely interesting question actually, because it really depends on whether they started with PaaS or not. If they ever had a PaaS strategy then they're mostly disillusioned. They came out, they thought it was going to solve a huge problem for them and save them a lot of money, and it turns out that developers want more flexibility than any PaaS approach really was able to offer them. So ultimately they're saying, "You know what, let's go back to basics." I'll just give you a Kubernetes API end point. You already know how to deal with everything else beyond that, and actually you're not cookie-cuttering out post ReSQueL- >> Kubernetes is a reset to PaaS. >> It really does. It kind of disrupted that whole space, and took a step back. >> All right, Stephan, how about Serverless. So a lot of discussion about Knative here. We've been teasing out where that fits compared to functions from AWS and Azure. What's the canonical take on this? What are you hearing from your customers? >> So Serverless is one of those ... Well it's certainly a hot technology and a technology of interest to our customers, but we have longstanding partnerships with Galactic Fog and others in place around Serverless. I haven't seen real production deployments of that yet, and frankly it's probably going to take a little bit longer before that materializes. I do think that there's a lot of efforts right now in containerization. Lots of folks are at that point where they are ready to, and are already running containerized workloads. I think they're busy now implementing Kubernetes. Once they have done that, I think they'll think a little bit more about Serverless. >> One of the things that interest me about this ecosystem is the rise of Kubernetes, the rise of choice, the rise of a lot of tools, a lot of services, trying to fend off the tsunami wave that's hit the beach out of Amazon. I've always said in theCUBE that that's ... They're going to take as much inland territory on this tsunami unless someone puts up a sea wall. I think this is this community here. The question is, is that ... And I want to get your expert opinion on this, because the behemoths, the big guys are getting richer. The innovation's coming from them, they have scale. You mentioned that as a key point in the value of Kubernetes, is scale, as one of those players, I would consider in the big size, not like a behemoth like an Amazon, you got a unique position. How can the industry move forward with disruption and innovation, with the big guys dominating? What has to happen? Is there going to change the size of certain TAMs? Is there going to be new service providers emerging? Something's got to give, either the big guys get richer at the expense of the little guys, or market expands with new categories. How do you guys look at that? Developers are out there, so is it promising look to new categories, but your thoughts. >> I think it's ... So a technology perspective certainly would be, there could be a disruptive technology that comes in and just eats their lunch, which I don't believe is going to happen, but I think it might actually be a more of a market functionality actually. If it goes down to the economics, and as they start to compete there will be a limit to the race to the bottom. So if I go in on an economical advantage point as a public cloud, then I can only take that so far. Now, I can still take it a lot further, but there's going to be a limit to that ultimately. So, I would say that all of the public clouds, we see that increasingly happening, are starting to differentiate. So they're saying, "Come to me for IML." "Come to me for a rich service catalog." "Come to me for workload portability," or something like that, right? And we'll se more differentiation as time goes on. I think that will develop in a little bit of a bubble, to the point where actually other players who are not watching, for example, Chinese clouds, right? Very large, very influential, very rich in services, they can come in and disrupt their market in a totally different way than a technology ever could. >> So key point you mentioned earlier, I want to pivot on that and get to the AI conversation, but scale is a competitive advantage. We've seen that on theCUBE, we see it in the marketplace. Kubernetese by itself is great but at scale it gets better, got nobs and policy. AI is a great example of where a dormant computer science concept that has not yet been unleashed ... Well, it gets unleashed by cloud. Now that's proliferating. AI, what else is out there? How do you see this trend around just large-scale Kubernetes, AI and machine learning coming on around the corner? That's going to be unique, and is new. So you mentioned the Chinese cloud could be a developer here. It's a lever. >> Absolutely, we've been involved with kubeflow since the early days. Early days, it's barely a year, so what early days? It's a year old. >> It's yesterday. >> So a year a ago we started working with kubeflow, and we published one of the first tutorials of how to actually get that up and running and started on Ubuntu, and with our distribution of Kubernetes, and it has since been a focal point of our distribution. We do a couple of things with kubeflow. So the first thing, something that we can bring as a unique value preposition is, because we're the operating system for almost all GKE, all of AKS, all EKS, such a strong standing as an operating system, and have strong partnerships with folks like NVIDIA. It was kind of one of the big milestones that we tried to achieve and we've since completed, actually as another announcement since last week, is the full automatic deployment of GPU enablement on Kubernetes clusters, and have that identical experience happen across the public clouds. So, GPGPU enablement on Kubernetes, as one of the key enablers for projects like kubeflow, which gives you machine learning stacks on demand, right? And then a parallel, we've been working with kubeflow in the community, very active, formed a steering committee to really get the industry perspective into the needs of kubeflow as a community and work with everybody else in that community to make sure that kubeflow releases on time, and hopefully soon, and a 1.0, which is due this summer, but right now they're focused on 0.4. That's a key area of innovation though, opportunity. >> Oh, absolutely. >> I see Amazon's certainly promoting that. What else is new? I've got one last question for you. What's next for you guys? Get a quick plugin for Canonical. What's coming around the corner, what's up? >> We're definitely happy to continue to work on GPGPU enablement. I think that is one of the key aspects that needs to stay ... That we need to stay on top of. We're looking at Kubernates across many different use cases now, especially with our IoT, open to core operating system, which we'll release shortly, and here actually having new use cases for AIML inference. For example, out at the edge looking at drones, robots, self-driving cars, et cetera. We're working with a bunch of different industry partners as well. So increased focus on the devices side of the house can be expected in 2019. >> And that's key these data, in a way that's really relevant. >> Absolutely. >> All right, Stephan, thanks for coming on theCUBE. I appreciate it, Canonical's. Great insight here, bringing in more commentary to the conversation here at KubeCon, CoudNativeCon. Large-scale deployments as a competitive advantage. Kubernetes really does well there: Data, machine learning, AI, all a part of the value and above and below Kubernatese. We're seeing a lot of great advances. CUBE coverage here in Seattle. We'll be back with more after this short break. 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>> Announcer: Live from Vancouver, Canada, its theCUBE! Covering OpenStack Summit North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman, and you're watching theCUBE's live coverage of OpenStack Summit 2018, in Vancouver. My co-host John Troyer is here, happy to welcome back to the program, Mark Baker who's a Product Manager with Canonical. Mark, how's the show treating you so far? >> Show's been going very well. So, we've seen people coming to us on the show floor, coming to the sessions. We're seeing really interesting building, scalable production Clouds, and so and coupling that with all the container technologies and a lot of other complimentary technology by machine-learning. So, a lot of the discussion is, can we build Cloud? But also, much more about the workloads and the kind of integration with, parallel if you like, or adjoining technologies. >> Great, want to talk about the customers really, Mark. So as you said, you've been to a few of these shows, we've been to a few of these also and, the makeup of the attendees has changed a bit, one of the things I heard, it is 2X the number of Cloud architects, with their title, compared just to last year, little bit of a broadening into the scope, what do you hear from customers, what brings them here, what's exciting them, in this environment? >> So, I mean yes certainly Cloud architects, and at Canonical we regularly talk to Cloud architects, because architecture with the Cloud is something that evolves, it's not something that's pinned. As workloads evolve, and new technologies come along you need to be able to evolve that architecture, and therefore people that understand that are important. I think it's also noticeable, I'm sat here wearing my blazer, is there's noticeable seeing quite a few people round the show, wearing blazers. So, you go back a couple years ago, or even a year or so ago, it was very much a sort of developer centric type of event. We're seeing more business conversations now, and even discussing things such as money, and economics, which weren't necessarily conversations that we were going too heavily in a couple of years ago. >> There's still a bunch of the hoodies set here, lots of cool T-shirts and, yeah, ironic facial hair and the like, so, maybe from your standpoint at Canonical, talk a little bit about those constituencies of who to sell with. We've got the operators, you've got the developers, you've got the C suite, I'm sure the answer is yes, but who you find yourself maybe, help walk us through some of those roles that you're talking to, some of the biggest concerns they're having and how you're helping them. >> So in most enterprises that we go and talk to we're typically talking to, initially operations, because they know that they need to be able to ride services to, Cloud services, and container services, to their customers internally, or within the business, and they're looking at okay how can we operate this, how can we secure it, how can we scale it, in smart ways, they're looking for our help and assistance doing that. Very soon after that we'll need to go and talk to developers, or engage line of business developers, primarily because we need to, this represents change to them, moving into a Cloud or, moving their applications to containers represents change, and we want to get them onboarded into this environment and to start to begin that change as quickly as possible. The Cloud, to succeed, it needs to have many running workloads on it, and so engaging with the developers, to take advantage of the capabilities the platform can provide is really important. We'd love to be able to go and talk to at that sea level, and we are starting to have more of those conversations, but I think the type of infrastructure, the OpenStack and container technologies provides, it's the initial interest is very much coming from those operators, from the architects, and from the developers. >> Well lets talk about operators for a minute, I mean, once upon a time there was a tribe of people called sisbits, they were kind of surly, and they took care of things like Linux, right, and now, out of that Linux framework, there's a huge set of technologies, that have grown all based on Linux, on all that Canonical works with, and there's a new set of skills required. Can you talk a little bit about what the new operator needs to know, and how you can help train people and Canonical help train people that you're assistant men working with Linux, what different things do I need to care about now in the Cloud management world, Cloud operator world? >> Yeah sure so, you're right, it used to be relatively simple, and you would run a VM or you'd run an application on top of bare metal and, there'd be certain things you'd need to be able to tweak to scale it and up the performance, but, we're running an, as we say, more agile infrastructure, so whether it's Cloud or containers or combinations of both, there are very many different variables, and how an application's able to take advantage of the storage or the capabilities that a platform provides, there's many different nobs and dials that you can turn. We tend to be advising right now, people on bringing in services such as CICD, Continuous Integration Continuous Deployment, so that they can start to adopt some of these newer ways of working. Operators now need to, they need to be much more aware of okay, what the workload characteristics are, and how that might behave on a hyper vise, or how it might behave within a containerized environment. I just came out of a conversation with a customer for example, who was asking detailed questions about storage performance, right? They have applications that require certain levels of storage performance and different types of storage that we can bring to bare, in conjunction with an OpenStack, which is going to be the appropriate one, and how do they segment them and so, it's definitely become more complex, but I think, through collaboration events like this, we're actually getting much better at being able to provide them with the information and the choices they need to make. >> Mark, speak to us a little bit about the community. OpenStack started heavy users in the community, contributed the community, how do you see that dynamic playing out today? >> Well there's still lots of contribution coming into OpenStack, and that's good to see. We are starting to see, as OpenStack has matured, as the market place has matured, some of the focus no longer being purely on contributing code, but now sharing experiences around operations, and that's starting to move into this area of people use this phrase, "Infrastructure as code", to be able to access infrastructure programmatically. I think we're seeing collaboration now in the OpenStack community and adjacent communities around collaborating on the operations, especially when those operations themselves are encapsulated in code. So, very simple thing, sounds simple, not necessarily easy to do but, being able to upgrade, update and place, how you would sort of suspend the system whilst you perform some maintenance and evacuating the workloads and bring them back in and those kinds of very common tasks for Cloud operators. We saw, even just a few years ago, how operators would each have their own way of doing it, their own preferred methods, and this was generally not so efficient so, collaborating on those and sharing best practices is one of the really interesting things to see within this community today. >> John: Sure, sure, I mean you, I think the evolution goes, everybody then starts to write scripts, which you all write scripts in your own way, and eventually you have to come up with a framework. And you all have developed a couple different frameworks in terms of installation and upgrades and things like that. >> Absolutely, and one of the things that once the customer start to understand that we've developed a framework around operations, those operations are encapsulated within code, and it means that if we have a customer, dodgy telecom, for example one of our customers that is understandably very security conscious, 'cause they run the telco network, has best practices around the security of their Cloud, and we're able, when they start to make recommendations or updates to that, we're able to take those and share them with a broad audience, and get that sort of collaborative spirit around what's the best way to be able to do this. >> So, you mentioned security there, any other kind of key pinpoints, what are you hearing out in the market place, is GDPR something that a lot of your customers are beaten on you and, what's the Canonical decision there? >> Yeah, absolutely, so, GDPR has been a real catalyst for people to look at areas for security that they probably meant to get round to at some point but never had, so. >> Some people said it's the Y2K of this generation >> Yes, exactly, definitely a forcing function. And so one of the areas we've seen a lot of activity around and solely we've committed resources to it within the last couple of months has been around encryption of data at rest. So, obviously in the Cloud, you're going to have a lot of data that's there with the relevant workloads, and some of that regulations in GDPR regulation is about what happens if somebody removes a disk from the server, does that mean that they have access to the data? As we start looking at things such as Edge Cloud, so very many Clouds close to the customer or close to the edge, which don't necessarily have the same data center infrastructure around them, how do we secure the data there, right? So, encryption of data, but doing it in a way that doesn't require to manually typed passwords in to be able to access them all of the time, is not a simple problem and, we've spent quite a few resources, working out how do we address that, how can we do it in a way that's going to allow it to be dealt with economically, and scalably. >> There's been a lot of talk about open infrastructure in general here at the show, and OpenStack obviously is designed to manage infrastructure, but we've already talked about containers here, with you in this segment, there's a lot of container news, Kubernetes news, OpenDev Summit going on at the same time, so how do you as a Product Manager, you can't just be worried about one part of the stack, how do you and your team worry about that integration and that unified platform and bring together these interactions will all these different OpenSource projects? >> Oh yes, for sure, and that's, it certainly is one of the things Canonical has been cognoscente on and focusing on, or working on for quite a long time is a Linux distribution at it's heart is really the integration of very many different components, from a kernel, and libraries, and pilots and all the various other pieces that go with that. So, understanding how these components plug together, whether it's OpenStack, with containers, and open V switch for the networking, and set for storage for example, that's very much part of what we've been doing. We're learning with customers as we go, very much, that how they want to plug these things together with Kubernetes, Kubernetes running alongside OpenStack, Kubernetes running on top of OpenStack, OpenStack even running on Kubernetes, some of them are looking at, so understanding how they, people want to be able to plug technologies together, and we'd standardized very much on sort of reference architectures of combination of OpenStack plus Kubernetes as a really simple example, but then as part of our QA process, testing process, all this reference architectures that we build with hardware partners and other partners too, is ensuring that we're able to deliver that as a stand-alone product as required, but also as effectively solutions together, that are fully integrated, fully supportable and they're going to deliver the capability that the customer needs. >> First of all, the OpenStack on top of Kubernetes, really? Is that something you'd recommend to customers or? Or is it a specific use case for that? >> It's not something that we recommend today. So, there's been certainly a lot of discussion in the OpenStack community around the control plane, and what's the best way to deliver the control plane. Canonical made a very strategic or specific choice several years ago that actually, containerizing the services is the right way to do this, so we containerized basically all of the control plane services apart from Neutron Gateway which would be a little tricky to do that but, so we containerized all of those services, and it gives us flexibility when we want to perform updates and migrate services between different systems, for example. How do you manage those containerized services though? There's lots of diversity of opinion. Some people want to be able to do that with Kubernetes, and that's great, then we certainly track those efforts and work with those people, if they're using a (mumbles) or some of our technologies, but I think, it's still yet to be decided, what's the best way to be able to do that. >> So you must, you have an interest in Java as a Product Manager, you always want to productize in general, standardize as much as possible, in the needs communities you have the diversity of opinions, oh I'll take this piece, I'll get rid of the core, I'll do something over here, I'll flip it upside down, how do you balance that, giving customers choice, but making sure you can deliver solid offerings that you can support? >> And so, that's very much it. It's a choice and we can say, look, we can deliver a robust, high performing Cloud, with these reference architectures, we've learned that through experience with customers, and working with our partners. We understand that customers all believe they're special and they all have their own special requirements, often with good valid reason, so, but we'll always try and start from a base, and then say let's start to iterate through that, adding in additional capabilities or, maybe tweaking something for your particular use case if you do that, and see how it impacts the Cloud. Because, for us to be successful, us, the OpenStack community to be successful, we need to ensure that those Clouds can live and breathe and evolve over time, and if they're making too many or too heavy customization of that Cloud, then it can start to impact their ability to do that. So, it's, we'll offer that choice. >> Speaking a little bit on the line of standardized services, I'm really intrigued by managed OpenStack, from Canonical. Can you talk a little about what customers it's right for, and when it comes into the conversation and then where in the lifecycle, 'cause I guess then it can also eventually go as as the control container back over to the customers when they don't, when they're finished with managed. >> Absolutely, so we started providing what we call boot stack, as fully managed OpenStack service, primarily to address the skills gap within the OpenStack community. So, we saw a lot of companies interested in deploying OpenStack, a lot of enterprises looking for OpenStack, but they couldn't find the talent, or the people with the experience of deploying a managing OverStack. Just, there weren't the people around, right? Hiring was hard. So, and that was becoming a blocker for us to be able to deliver Clouds to those customers, so we started to offer a managed service, we had a lot of the reference architectures and best practices pretty well nailed down, but it was a facilitator for them to get up and running with the Cloud and there's a point where they, that they became comfortable operating it, managing themselves, hand control back. We've seen, that is a very popular model, and that period where they're having us manage it, can be six months or 12 months or 18 months, but the customers know that they have the reassurance that they can take it back, control and house, they can operate it themselves, and they can manage their own environment, they become self sufficient, but they're not doing that from day one. We're holding their hand, and taking them along that path. So, that's been a very popular offer. >> Mark Baker, really appreciate you giving us an update on really the broad spectrum of customer use cases and all the updates from Canonical. For John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman. Back with more coverage here from the OpenStack Summit 2018, in Vancouver. Thanks for watching theCUBE. (electronic music)

>> Narrator: Live from Vancouver, Canada. It's the Cube. Covering OpenStack Summit, North America, 2018. Brought to you by Redhat, the OpenStack foundation and it's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to the Cube. I'm Stu Miniman with my co-host John Troyer, and your watching the Cube, the worldwide leader in tech coverage. Happy to welcome back back to the program, Arturo Suarez, who is with Canonical, program director. Haven't have him on for a couple of hours, Arturo, thanks for joining me again. >> Thanks for having me. >> Alright and David Safaii who is the CEO of Trilio Data. We introduced your company to our community last year at the show in our backyard in Boston, so, thanks for joining us here in beautiful Vancouver. >> Thanks for having me again, good to see ya. >> Alright so, David, let's start with you. It's you know, a year since we talked to you, you know data management, absolutely, you know, such a hot space. Bring us into that update as to your company, what's happening in OpenStack and lets get into it from there. >> Sure. It's been an exciting year since I seen you last, you know. I think part of it's been the evolution and the maturity of this ecosystem that we're seeing. More business units are now moving production workloads into this environment. So the call to Trilio has really taken place. A lot of the times your seeing these cloud teams having to scramble to find the proper data protection solution. Trilio being a cloud native backup solution, you know, for this environment, its just a logical selection. >> Yeah, its one of those things I scratch my head, maybe you can explain to me, is, remember back in I was like, when we did virtualization, it was like took a little while before we had a good backup, you know, solution for there. When we go to cloud its like, wait, oh wait, lets not forget that there are things like security and backup. Why does it take a little bit while for that to kind of catch up into the market and have good solutions? >> So if you think about it this way, when people start this journey, right, the initial intent a lot of the time is to have some stateless workloads. We know that's not the case. Perception and reality. And your going to see it in the container market as well. So that's kind of the evolution that you see, that's kind of the draw that we see. >> Okay, Arturo, explain to us how Canonical fits. >> So, obviously Canonical powers more OpenStack than anyone else does. So OpenStack foundation survey would like to say it. But that's a fact, that's what I'll write. So, we're happy to partner with Trilio. We've always been very keep to accommodate the ecosystem in our story. Trilio vault matches very well our idea of having better economics as well for the data center. And it opens up OpenStack, not only for the original goal of OpenStack, like the hyper scalers or the scale out applications, right, which are cloud native if you want and are born on OpenStack. And OpenStack is born for them right, for that type of application. But now it opens that to a wide range of existing, I wouldn't call it legacy, but, you know what I mean like old applications that are really not going to be refreshed, you know. You'll only refresh that many applications year after year. 10% of your applications, 15% if you have a good devops team. Those still are suffering lock in from being in that virtualization world, or not even there, right. And with OpenStack and the addition of Trilio as a backup DR solution, just somebody provide what a pet VM needs right. So somebody opens up to a large real state of a data center to be accommodated in OpenStack seamlessly. >> It's great, Chris, here at OpenStack Summit this year, kind of the customers your seeing, someone said to me the other day that, you know the people here this year are people with mortgage to pay. And they meant that in a complimentary way, in that they're not like the cloud astronauts or they're not arguing about the philosophy of what is a true cloud. They actually have business to do. So I don't know, your talking about some of what your seeing here at this show and you know the kinds of people or maybe, you know, who are the folks that are using or kind of folks that are using Trilio today? >> Yeah and I think the conversation has been, the high quality conversations, higher caliber conversation where its a lot of day two conversations that have taken place, so, it's been engaging. People need to act, they need to move. They've got these fabulous clouds that's slicing and dicing, they're expanding in every which way possible. Now they say, alright, we have to codify this. You know the journey to the cloud doesn't have to be painful. And that's one of the great things that Canonicals done well, right. Build, operate, manage - here's your cloud, we're going to stand it up, you know, it's everything you need. Now with Trilio its not "Can I add back up to it?", like fries, it's just not like that. It's adding data protection to codify that and again that's why we're seeing these people start, are coming. They're asking that kind of, they're asking that question. >> Are you mostly talking to folks over in the enterprise space? I mean with OpenStack right, a lot of the conversations in the carrier space, they have some slightly different needs. Or how is that working for you? >> No, it's broadened. I'd say our customer base is everything from manufacturing to receiving financial services all over the world, adopt OpenStack. So, again it goes to the testament of adopting and building much easier than every before and the economics are big benefit. >> In terms of building on top of OpenStack or you know so directly with the APIs. And OpenStack has a number of components all with APIs and component, so how is that relationship been working with Canonical and the state of both Canonical's OpenStack as well as the standard, you know, getting used to the standard parts of the OpenStack stack. >> Yeah so we certify ourselves across the distribution, but you know, part of this is a seamless integration through leveraging juju charms for example. The lifecycle management of that cloud. So whether your going through an upgrade process or staying up a new cloud, Trilio just fits hand and glove with Canonical. >> Yeah at the end of the day APIs are APIs, OpenStack are OpenStack, right. That is very well defined. It's how you build it. When you build it to just take a picture of it and have an OpenStack up and running, or, when you build it to have an OpenStack that's going to be in your data center for ten years, for 20 years, right, that is a credible data center right. So that is our main difference. The OpenStack and the end of the day, the API is just consumable just for us as well as for the other guys, its exactly the same API. We don't modify, not everybody, right, but we do not modify anything from OpenStack. It's pure appstring OpenStack, right, there's no real difference there. >> Okay, what about I think service providers would be key market for this, how does that play in for both of you? >> I mean the service provider market of course is a big adapter of OpenStack and then now your seeing also with NFV environment, the rapid adoption there. It's been an important add to the OpenStack cloud if you think about how do I recover my configurations in that environment, so. >> Exactly and we mentioned before like right, the expansive real estate even in the world of service providers when you move out of the core, right, and they're challenging SLAs, right. So DR is effectively and that data protection as well because the VNFs that their running are effectively managing data that is prone to be protected, specially you know, in countries in Europe for instance, with the GDPR etc., you really need to have accountability of what data is in your data center without, you know, taking into account the economics of having an extra data center there, right. So the DR and data protection elements are key to the cloud strategy of service providers, right. >> What are folks looking at is cross cloud strategies and backup. Like what is the target right, I'm assuming either, cross data center or also up to the public cloud. How are people looking at that? Either one. >> So we see it, as far as the backend store of the target, we really have certified ourselves across any backup target. Within Canonical they're using self storage. If they added benefit of geo replication, right, so the DR story starts to evolve there. So site goes down, you have geo replication, you have Trilio there to spin backup that other site back up again. Relative to the public cloud, you know, as the hybrid world continuously evolves, you know, we're ready for that. We have qualified against S3 for example. But no ones banging down the door just at this moment. I think a lot of people just need to get the blocking and tackling done and leverage really the assets that they have, to make the most out of it, get the ROI there. And then we'll see if the demand evolves. >> So the beauty is to have the choice right, the freedom of choice. Which is what some of the private infrastructure software doesn't allow you to do. Like this is a one thing you can eat today, right. So that freedom of choice, whether you want to put that in a public cloud, if it's security compliant and what not, or you want to have that in another region or replicated somewhere else, another storage backend that is colder and cheaper and you know, so. That freedom of choice is a great asset. >> Arturo, what are you looking forward to in terms of the evolution of OpenStack storage and data capabilities? >> So, OpenStack is already opened up for absolutely everything, right. Storage in fact in OpenStack was, this is my 15th OpenStack, so I've been following it from the very very beginning right. So the storage in OpenStack is actually was the project that was mature first... >> Well I didn't want to start the question off with well, OpenStack storage is kind of done right. But... >> But it is right. At the end of the day when you look at all the existing, more legacy type of a storage filers, already have an integration with OpenStack. OpenStack made a turn few years ago, again, I'm telling my old stories of OpenStack, but when we started doing Cinder. And the Cinder drivers would apply in that to Neutron and the Neutron plugins now for network. But the Cinder drivers actually are a very easy way to plug in literally any other storage solution that you might find out there. And the beauty of it is that you can, you don't have to choose one. You can have many storage back ends in your data center right. So that is there. And then it will be, as we talked before, it be just a decision on the per use cases. Canonical will be part of that. Canonical will have a solution ready for each of those use cases by enabling partners. And obviously there will be some of them that will be more adequate to with the compliance and security terms, right. >> David, I'd love you to follow up on that. So there is the companies that have gone through the alphabet from A through Queens, and have the bumps and bruises. What's it like being a startup, getting into the ecosystem you know more recently. What's the opportunities? >> Yeah, I mean, I think for us the customers are at various points in their journeys right. So we have be able to qualify whether your kilo or your on queens. And we have to be able to deliver a service that you know is rock solid. So that's an onus on us. To deliver all that, make sure it's bullet proof. So it takes a lot of work. But, the community's been great to work with, the customers view us as partners. And they're willing to work with you, which has been fantastic, you know. >> Okay. Want to give you both a final take aways from the event. David you want to start? >> Sure. So as I was saying before I think the conversations been high caliber conversations, right. It's been interesting for us, because if you think about back up and DR, data protection is actually a much broader term and I think it evolves. And I think we're on a great spot for it to evolve even further. We take a workload, a point in time, right, if the conversation becomes about workload mobility inside your cloud, I can move it to any part, and that's some of the conversations that we've had using back up for resource management, right, I want to move tenants from one availability zone to another availability zone. Or I'm standing up a new cloud. That's just part of the by product of backup and recovery. One of the things that we're actually, we're exploring and we'll give you guys a nice showcase of this in Berlin is that we'll be running scanners through our back ups. Doing more with points in time, to give your tenants and your customers the ability to go back to the best last known state, you know it's clean. All the patches, the configurations, the anti-virus type stuff. So this is going to be a great evolution it's going to be a great journey. Having the ability of being a startup gives us the flexibility and we can be nimble, where a legacy data protection has 30 year old code and they don't have that ability. So, it's been great. >> So as you know, following up on what David said, right, the flexibility of having a data protection solution finally on OpenStack, being able to compare and win against all the private cloud infrastructure is a great asset. The fact that OpenStack now you see is ready for prime because it gets less media attention its not shiny anymore it's not that interesting to talk about OpenStack. But everyone needs an OpenStack solution, right. The ecosystem landscape where come from the digital wars back in the day, we're not wasting time right there right. So it's more of a filling a need that OpenStack opens up for. And Trilio has done that very well in the data protection domain. >> It's been a really great relationship. >> Alright, David Safaii, Arturo Suarez, thank you so much for joining us again. And check out thecube.net. If you go to the site, not only can you search by events and by guest but if you put in keyword, for example, getting ready for this event, I typed OpenStack in and there were hundreds of interviews that we've done over the years, not only at this OpenStack summit, but many other shows that have talked about it. Go find them, poke around, you know, so much content to be able to dig in. For John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman, back with a lot more coverage here at OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. Thanks for watching the Cube. (Background music)

>> Narrator: Live from Vancouver, Canada it's theCUBE covering OpenStack Summit North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE. I'm Stu Miniman here with my cohost here John Troyer. And we're at the OpenStack Summit 2018, here in Vancouver. One of the key topics we've been discussing, actually for a few years but under new branding, and it's really matured a bit is Edge Computing. So, we're really happy to welcome to the program two first time guests. We have Arturo Suarez, who's a program director with Canonical. We also have first time Kontron employee on, Eric Sarault, who's a product manager of software and services with, I believe Montreal based, is the headquarters. >> That's correct. >> Stu: So, thank you for allowing all of us to come up to Canada and have some fun. >> It's a pleasure. >> But we were all working during Victoria Day, right? >> Yeah. >> All right. Arturo, we know Canonical. So, we're going to talk about where you fit in. But, Eric, let's start with Kontron. I've got a little bit of background with them. I worked in really kind of the TelCo space back in the 90s. But for people that don't know Kontron maybe give us some background. So, basically, the entity here today is representing the communications business unit. So, what we do on that front is mostly TelCo's service providers. We also have strong customer base in the media vertical. But right now the OpenStack, what we're focusing on, is really on the Edge, mixed messages as well. So, we're really getting about delivering the true story about Edge because everybody has their own version of Edge. Everybody has their own little precisions about it. But down the road, it's making sure that we align everyone towards the same messaging so that we deliver a unified solution so that everybody understands what it is. >> Yeah. So, my filter on this has been Edge depends who you are. If you're a telecommunications vendor, when we've talked about the Cohen, it's the Edge of where they sit. If I'm an enterprise, it's the Edge is more like the IOT devices and sometimes there's an aggregation box in between. So, there's somewhere between two and four Edges out there. It's like cloud. We spent a bunch of years discussing it and then we just put the term to the side and go things. When you're talking Edge at Kontron, what does that mean? You actually have devices. >> We do. >> So, who's your customer? What does the Edge look like? >> So, we do have customers on that front. Right now we're working with some big names out there. Basically delivering solutions for 12 inch depth racks at the bottom of radio towers or near cell sites. And ultimately working our way up closer to what would look like, what I like to call a "closet" data center, if you will. Where we also have a platform with multiple systems that's able to be hosted in the environment. So, that's really about not only having one piece of the equation but really being able to get closer to the data center. >> All right. And Arturo, help bring us in because we know Canonical's a software company. What's the Edge mean to your customers and where does Canonical fit? >> So, Canonical, we take pride of being an ubiquitous platform, right? So, it doesn't matter where the Edge, or what the Edge is, right? There is an Ubuntu platform. There is an Ubuntu operating system for every single domain of compute, going from the very end of the Edge. That device that sits on your house or that drone that is flying around. And you need to do some application businesses, or to post on application businesses with, all the way to the core rank. Our OpenStack story starts at the core. But it's interesting as it goes farther from that core, how the density, it's an important factor in how you do things, so. We are able, with Kontron, to provide an operating system and tooling to tackle several of those compute domains that are part of the cloud where real estate is really expensive, right. >> Eric, so you all are a systems developer? Is that a fair two-word phrase? It's hardware and software? >> Basically, we do our original design. >> Okay. I know where I am. >> Manufacturing. >> So, I'm two steps away from hardware. So, I think of those as all systems. But you build things? >> Eric: Correct. >> And you work with software. I think for folks that have been a little more abstract, you tend to think, "Well, in those towers, there must be some bespoke chips and some other stuff but nothing very sophisticated." At this point we're running, or that your customers are running, full OpenStack installations on your system hardware. >> Eric: Correct. >> That's in there and it's rugged and it's upgradable. Can you talk a little bit about the business impact, of that sort of thing, as you go out and work with your customers? >> Certainly. So, one of the challenges that we saw there was really that, from a hardware perspective, people didn't really think about making sure that, once the box is shipped, how do you get the software on it, right. Typically, it's a push and forget approach. And this is where we saw a big gap, that it doesn't make any sense for folks to figure that on their own. A lot of those people out there are actually application developers. They don't have the networking background. They don't have a hardware engineering background. And the last thing they want to be doing is spending weeks, if not months, figuring out how to deploy OpenStack, or Kubernetes, or other solutions out there. So, that's where we leverage Canonical's tools, including MAAS and Juju, to really deploy that easily, at scale, and automated. Along with packaging some documentation, some proper steps on how to deploy the environment quickly in a few hours instead of just sitting there scratching your head and trying to figure it out, right. Because that's the last thing they want. The minute they have the box in their hand they already want to consume the resources and get up and running, so. That's really the mission we want to tackle that you're not going to see from most hardware vendors out there. >> Yeah, it's interesting. We often talk about scale, and our term, it's a very different scale when you talk about how fast it's deployed. We're not talking about tens or hundreds of thousands of cores for one environment. It's way more distributed. >> Yeah. It's a different type of scale. It's still a scale but the building block is different, right. So, we take the orders of magnitude more of points of presence than there are data centers, right. At that scale, and the farther you go again from the core, the larger the scale it is. But the building block is different. And the ability to play, the price of the compute is different. It goes much higher, right? So, going back again, that ability to condense in OpenStack, the ability to deliver a Kubernetes within that little space, is pretty unique, right? And while we're still figuring out what technology goes on the Edge, we still need to account for, as Eric said, the economics of that Edge play a big, big part of that gain, right. So, there is a scale, it's in the thousands of points of presence, in the hundreds of thousands of points of presence, or different buildings where you can put an Edge cloud, or the use-case are still being defined, but it's scaled on a different building block. >> Well, Arturo, just to clarify for myself, sometimes when you're looking at an OpenStack component diagram, there's a lot of components and I don't know how many nodes I'm going to have to run. And they're all talking to each other. But at the Edge, even though there's powerful hardware there, there's an overhead consideration, right? >> Yes. Absolutely and that's going to be there. And OpenStack might evolve but might not evolve. But this is something we are tackling today, right. That's why I love the fact that Kontron has also a Kubernetes cluster, right. That multi-technology, the real multi-cloud is a multi-technology approach to the Edge, right. There are all the things that we can put in the Edge and the access is set. It's not defined. We need to know exactly how much room you have, how you make the most out of each of your cores or each of the gigs of RAM out there. So, OpenStack obviously is heavy for some parts of the Edge. Kontron, with our help, has pushed that to the minimum Openstack viable that allows you not to roll a track when you need to do something on that location, right. As that is as effective as it can get today. >> Eric, can you help put this in a framework of cloud, in general. When I think of Edge, a lot of it data's going to need to go back to data centers or a public cloud, multiple public cloud providers. How do your customers deal with that? Are you using Kubernetes to help them span between public cloud and the Edge? >> So, it's a mix of both. Right now we're doing some work to see how you can utilize idle processing time, along with Kubernetes scheduling and orchestration capabilities. But also OpenStack really caters to the more traditional SDNN of the use-case out there to run your traditional applications. So, that's two things that we get out of the platform. But it's also understanding how much data do you want to go back to the data center and making sure that most of the processing is as close as possible. That goes along with 5G, of course. You literally don't have the time to go back to the data centers. So, it's really about putting those capabilities, whether it's FPGAs, GPUs, and those platform, and really enabling that as close as possible to the Edge, or the end user, should I say. >> Eric, I know you're in the carrier space. Can you talk a little, maybe Kontron in general? And maybe how you, in your career as you go the next decades looking at imbed-able technology everywhere, and what do you all see as the vision of where we're headed? >> Oh, wow. That's a hell of a question. >> That's a big question to throw on you. >> I think it's very interesting to see where things are going. There's a lot of consolidation. And you have all these opensource project that needs to work together. The fact that OpenStack is embracing the reality that Kubernetes is going to be there to drive workloads. And they're not stepping on each others' throat, not even near. So, this is where the collaboration, between what we're seeing from the OpenStack Foundation along with the projects from the Linux Foundation, this is really, really interesting to see this moving forward. Other projects upcoming, like ONAP and Akraino, it's going to be very interesting for the next 24 months, to see what it's going to shape into. >> One of the near things, you mentioned 5G and we've been watching, what's available, how that roll-out's going to go into the various pieces. Is this ecosystem ready for that? Going to take advantage of it? And how soon until it is real for customers? >> The hardware is ready. That's for sure. It's really going to be about making sure if you have a split environment that's based on X86, or a split with ARM, it's going to be about making sure that these environments can interact with each other. The service chaining is probably the most complicated aspect there is to what people want to be doing there. And there's a bit of a tie, rope-pulling, from one side to another still but it's finally starting to put in to play. So, I think that the fact that Akraino, which is going to bring a version of OpenStack within the Linux Foundation, this is going to be really unlocking the capabilities that are out there to deploy the solution. And tying along with that, with hardware that has a single purpose, that's able to cater all the use-cases, and not just think about one vertical. "And then this box does this and this other box does another use-case." I think that's the pitfall that a lot of vendors fallen into. Instead of just, "Okay, for a second think outside the box. How many applications could you fit in this footprint?" And there probably going to be big data and multiple use-cases, that are nowhere near each other. So, don't try to do this very specific platform and just make sure that you're able to cater pretty much everyone. It's probably going to do the job, right, so. >> There's over 40 sessions on Edge Computing here. Why don't we just give both of you the opportunity to give us a closing remarks on the importance of Edge, what you're seeing here at the show, and final takeaways. >> From our side, from the Canonical side again, the Edge is whatever is not core. That really has different domains of compute. There is an Ubuntu for each of one of those domains. As Eric mentioned, this is important because you have a common platform, not only in the hardware perspective or the orchestrating technologies and their needs, which are evolving fast. And we have the ability, because how we are built, to accommodate or to build on all of those technologies. And be able to allow developers to choose what they want to do or how they want to do it. Try and try again, in different types of technologies and finally get to that interesting thing, right. There is that application layer that still needs to be developed to make the best use out of the existing technologies. So, it's going to be interesting to see how applications and the technologies evolve together. And we are in a great position as a common platform to all of those compute domains on all of those technologies from the economical perspective. >> On our side, what we see, it's really about making sure it's a density play. At the Edge, and the closer you go to these more wild environments, it's not data centers with 30 kilowatts per rack. You don't have the luxury of putting in, what I like to call whiteboards, 36 inch servers or open-compute systems. So, we really want to make sure that we're able to cater to that. We do have the products for it along with the technologies that Canonical are bringing in on that front. We're able to easily roll-out multiple types of application for those different use-cases. And, ultimately, it's all going to be about density, power efficiency, and making sure that your time to production with the environment is as short as possible. Because the minute they'll want access to that platform, you need to be ready to roll it out. Otherwise, you're going to be lagging behind. >> Eric and Arturo, thanks so much for coming on the program and giving us all the updates on Edge Computing here. For John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman. Back with lots more coverage here from OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. Thanks for watching theCUBE. (exciting music)

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: Live from Vancouver, Canada. It's The Cube covering Openstack Summit, North America, 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, The Open Stack Foundation, and it's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to The Cube's coverage of Openstack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. I'm Stu Miniman with cohost of the week, John Troyer. Happy to welcome back to the program Stephan Fabel, who is the Director of Ubuntu product and development at Canonical. Great to see you. >> Yeah, great to be here, thank you for having me. Alright, so, boy, there's so much going on at this show. We've been talking about doing more things and in more places, is the theme that the Open Stack Foundation put into place, and we had a great conversation with Mark Shuttleworth, and going to dig in a little bit deeper in some of the areas with you. >> Stephan: Okay, absolutely. >> So we have the Cube, and we're go into all of the Kubernetes, Kubeflow, and all those other things that we'll mispronounce how they go. >> Stephan: Yes, yes, absolutely. >> What's your impression of the show first of all? >> Well I think that it's really, you know, there's a consolidation going on, right? I mean, we really have the people who are serious about open infrastructure here, serious about OpenStack. They're serious about Kubenetes. They want to implement, and they want to implement at a speed that fits the agility of their business. They want to really move quick with the obstrain release. I think the time for enterprise hardening delays an inertia there is over. I think people are really looking at the core of OpenStack, that's mature, it's stable, it's time for us to kind of move, get going, get success early, get it soon, then grow. I think most of the enterprise, most of the customers we talk to adopt that notion. >> One of the things that sometimes helps is help us lay out the stack a little bit here because we actually commented that some of the base infrastructure pieces we're not talking as much about because they're kind of mature, but OpenStack very much at the infrastructure level, your compute, storage, and network need to understand. But then we when we start doing things like Kubernetes as well, I can either do or, or on top of, and things like that, so give us your view as to what'd you put, what Canonical's seeing, and what customers-- how you lay out that stack? >> I think you're right, I think there's a little bit of path-finding here that needs to be done on the Kubernetes side, but ultimately, I think it's going to really converge around OpenStack being operative-centric, and operative-friendly, working and operating the infrastructure, scaling that out in a meaningful manner, providing multitenancy to all the different departments. Having Kubernetes be developer-centric and really help to on-board and accelerate the workload that option of the next gen initiatives, right? So, what we see is absolutely a use case for Kubernetes and OpenStack to work perfectly well together, be an extension of each other, possibly also sit next to each other without being too incumbenent there. But I think that ultimately having something like Kubernetes contain a based developer APIs that are providing that orchestration layer are the next thing, and they run just perfectly fine on Canonical OpenStack. >> Yeah, there certainly has been a lot of talk about that here at the show. Let's see, let's go a level above that, things we run on Kubernetes, I wanted to talk a little bit about ML and AI and Kubeflow. It seems like we're, I'd almost say that we're, this is like, if we were a movie, we're in a sequel like AI-5; this time, it's real. I really do see real enterprise applications incorporating these technologies into the workflow for what otherwise might be kind of boring, you know, line of business, can you talk a little bit about where we are in this evolution? >> You mean, John, only since we've been talking about it since the mid-1800s, so yeah. >> I was just about to point that out, I mean, AI's not new, right? We've seen it since about 60 years. It's been around for quite some time. I think that there is an unprecedented amount of sponsorship of new startups in this area, in this space, and there's a reason why this is heating up. I think the reason why ultimately it's there is because we're talking about a scale that's unprecedented, right? We thought the biggest problem we had with devices was going to be the IP addresses running out, and it turns out, that's not true at all, right? At a certain scale, and at a certain distributed nature of your rollout, you're going to have to deal with just such complexity and interaction between the underlying, the under-cloud, the over-cloud, the infrastructure, the developers. How do I roll this out? If I spin up 1000 BMs over here, why am I experiencing dropped calls over there? It's those types of things that need to be self-correlated. They need to be identified, they need to be worked out, so there's a whole operator angle just to be able to cope with that whole scenario. I think there's projects that are out there that are trying to ultimately address that, for example, Acumos (mumbles) Then, there is, of course, the new applications, right? Smart cities to connect to cars, all those car manufacturers who are, right now, faced with the problem: how do I deal with mobile, distributed inference rollout on the edge while still capturing the data continually, train my model, update, then again, distribute out to the edge to get a better experience. How do I catch up to some of the market leaders here that are out there? As the established car manufacturers are going to come and catch up, put more and more miles autonomously on the asphalt, we're going to basically have to deal with a whole lot more of proctization of machine-learning applications that just have to be managed at scale. And so we believe for all certain good company in that belief that having to manage large applications at scale, that containers and Kubernetes is a great way to do that, right? They did that for web apps. They did that for the next generation applications. This is one example where with the right operators in mind, the right CRDs, the right frameworks on top of Kubernetes managed correctly, you are actually in a great position to just go to market with that. >> I wonder if you might have a customer example that might go to walk us through kind of where they are in this discussion, talk to many companies, you know, the whole IOT even pieces were early in this. So what's actually real today, how much is planning, is this years we're talking before some of these really come to fruition? >> So yeah, I can't name a customer, but I can say that every single car manufacturer we're talking to is absolutely interested in solving the operational problem of running machine-learning frameworks as a service, making sure those are up running and up to speed at any given point in time, spin them up in a multitenant fashion, make sure that the GPU enablement is actually done properly at all layers of the virtualization. These are real operational challenges that they're facing today, and they're looking to solve with us. Pick a large car manufacturer you want. >> John: Nice. We're going down to something that I can type on my own keyboard then, and go to GitHub, right? That's one of the places to go where it is run, TensorFlow of machine-learning framework on Kubernetes is Kubeflow, and that little bit yesterday on stage, you want to talk about that maybe? >> Oh, absolutely, yes. That's the core of our current strategy right now. We're looking at Kubeflow as one of the key enablers of machine-learning frameworks as a service on top of Kubernetes, and I think they're a great example because they can really show how that as a service can be implemented on top of a virtualization platform, whether that be KVM, pure KVM, on bare metal, on OpenStack, and actually provide machine-learning frameworks such as TensorFlow, Pipe Torch, Seldon Core. You have all those frameworks being supported, and then basically start mix and matching. I think ultimately it's so interesting to us because the data scientists are really not the ones that are expected to manage all this, right? Yet they are the core of having to interact with it. In the next generation of the workloads, we're talking to PHDs and data scientists that have no interest whatsoever in understanding how all of this works on the back end, right? They just want to know this is where I'm going to submit my artifact that I'm creating, this is how it works in general. Companies pay them a lot of money to do just that, and to just do the model because that's where, until the right model is found, that is exactly where the value is. >> So Stephan, does Canonical go talk to the data scientists, or is there a class of operators who are facilitating the data scientists? >> Yes, we talk to the data scientists who understand their problems, we talk to the operators to understand their problems, and then we work with partners such as Google to try and find solutions to that. >> Great, what kind of conversations are you having here at the show? I can't imagine there's too many of those, great to hear if there are, but where are they? I think everybody here knows containers, very few know Kubernetes, and how far up the stack of building new stuff are they? >> You'd be surprised, I mean, we put this out there, and so far, I want to say the majority of the customer conversations we've had took an AI turn and said, this is what we're trying to do next year, this is what we're trying to do later in the year, this is what we're currently struggling with. So glad you have an approach because otherwise, we would spend a ton of time thinking about this, a ton of time trying to solve this in our own way that then gets us stuck in some deep end that we don't want to be. So, help us understand this, help us pave the way. >> John: Nice, nice. I don't want to leave without talking also about Microcades, that's a Kubernetes snap, you code some clojure download, Can we talk a little bit about that? >> Yeah, glad to. This was an idea that we conceived that came out of this notion of alright, well if I do have, talking to a data scientist, if I do have a data scientist, where does he start? >> Stu: Does Kubernetes have a learning curve to date? >> It does, yeah, it does. So here's the thing, as a developer, you have, what options do you have right when you get started? You can either go out and get a community stood up on one of the public clouds, but what if you're in the plane, right? You don't have a connection, you want to work on your local laptop. Possibly, that laptop also has a GPU, and you're a data scientist and you want to try this out because you know you're going to submit this training job now to a (mumbles) that runs un-prem behind the firewall with a limited training set, right? This is the situation we're talking about. So ultimately, the motivation for creating Microcades was we want to make this very, very equivalent. Now you can deploy Kubeflow on top of Microcades today, and it'll run just fine. You get your TensorBoard, you have Jupyter notebook, and you can do your work, and you can do it in a fashion that will then be compatible to your on-prem and public machine-learning framework. So that was your original motivation for why we went down this road, but then we noticed you know what, this is actually a wider need. People are thinking about local Kubernetes in many different ways. There are a couple of solutions out there. They tend to be cumbersome, or more cumbersome than developers would like it. So we actually said, you know, maybe we should turn this into a more general purpose solution. So hence, Microcades. It works like a snap on your machine, you kick that off, you have Kubernetes API, and under 30 seconds or little longer if your download speed plays a factor here, you enable DNS and you're good to go. >> Stephan, I just want to give you the opportunity, is there anything in the Queens Release that your customers have been specifically waiting for or any other product announcements before we wrap? >> Sure, we're very excited about the Queens Release. We think Queens Release is one of the great examples of the maturity of the code base and really the knot towards the operator, and that, I think was the big challenge beyond the olden days of OpenStack where the operators took a long time for the operators to be heard, and to establish that conversation. We'd like to say and to see that OpenStack Queens has matured in that respect, and we like things like Octavia. We're very exciting about (mumbles) as a service, taking its own life and being treated as a first-class citizen. I think that it was a great decision of the community to get on that road. We're supporting as a part of our distribution. >> Alright, well, appreciate the update. Really fascinating to hear about all, you know, everybody's thinking about it and really starting to move on all the ML and AI stuff. Alright, for John Troyer, I'm Tru Miniman. Lots more coverage here from OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. Thanks for watching The Cube. (upbeat music)

(soft electronic music) >> Announcer: Live from Vancouver, Canada, it's theCUBE. Covering OpenStack Summit North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack Foundation, and it's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman here with my cohost John Troyer and you're watching theCUBE's exclusive coverage of OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. Happy to welcome you back to the program, off the keynote stage this morning, Mark Shuttleworth, the founder of Canonical. Thank you so much for joining us. >> Stu, thanks for the invitation. >> Alright, so you've been involved in this OpenStack stuff for quite a bit. >> Right, since the beginning. >> I remember three years ago we were down in the other hall talking about the maturity of the platform. I think three years ago, it was like this container thing was kind of new and the basic infrastructure stuff was starting to get, in a nice term, boring. Because that meant we could go about business and be on the buzz of there's this cool new thing and we're going to kill Amazon, kill VMware, whatever else things that people thought that had a misconceived notion. So bring us forward to where we are 2018, what you're hearing from customers as you look at OpenStack and this community. >> Well, I think you pretty much called it. OpenStack very much now is about solving a real business problem, which is the automation of the data center and the cost parody of private data centers with public data centers. So I think we're at a time now where people understand the public cloud is a really good thing. It's great that you have these giant companies dueling it out to deliver better quality infrastructure at a better price. But then at the same time, having your own private infrastructure that runs cost-effectively is important. And OpenStack really is the only approach to that that exists today. And it's important to us that the conversation is increasingly about what we think really matters, which is the economics of owning it, the economics of running it, and how people can essentially keep that in line with what they get from the public cloud providers. >> Yeah, one of the barometers I use for vendors these days is in this multi-cloud world, where do you sit? Do you play with the HyperScalers? Are you a public cloud denier? Or, like most people you're, most people are somewhere in-between. In your keynote this morning, you were talking a bit about all of the HyperScalers that use your products as well as-- >> Ubuntu is at the heart of all of the major public cloud operations at multiple levels. So we see them as great drivers of innovation, great drivers of exposure of Ubuntu into the enterprise. We're still, by far, the number one platform used in public cloud by enterprises. It's hard to argue that public cloud is testing Dev now. It really, really isn't and so most of that is still Ubuntu. And now we're seeing that pendulum swing, all of those best practices, that consumption of Ubuntu, that understanding of what a leaner, meaner Enterprise Linux looks like. Bringing that back to the data center is exciting. For us, it's an opportunity to help enterprises rethink the data center to make it fully automated from the ground up. OpenStack is part of that, Kubernetes is part of that and now the cherry on top is really AI where people understand they have to be able to do it on public cloud, on private infrastructure and at the Edge. >> Mark, I wanted to talk about open source. Marketing open source, for a minute. We are obviously here, we're part of an open source community. Open source, defacto, has won the cloud technology stack wars. So there's one way of selling OpenStack where you pound on open a lot. >> I'm always a bit nervous about projects that put open. It sounds like they're sort of trying to gloss over something or wash over something or prove a point. They shouldn't have to. >> There's one about the philosophy of open source, which certainly has to stay there, right. Because that's what drove the innovation but I was kind of impressed about on the stage today, you talked about the benefits. You didn't say, well the venture's open. You said, well, we're facilitating these benefits. Speed to market, cost, et cetera. Can you talk about your approach, Canonical's approach to talking about this open source product in terms of its benefits? >> Sure, look, open source is a license. Under that license, there's room for a huge spectrum of interest and opinions and approaches. And I'd say that I certainly see an enormous amount of value in what I would call the passion-based open source story. Now, OpenStack is not that. It's too big, too complicated, to be one person's deep passion. It really isn't. But there's still a ton of innovation that happens in our world, across the full spectrum of what we see with open source, which is really experts trying to do something beautiful and elegant. And I still think that's really important in open source. You also have a new kind of dimension, which is almost like industrial trench warfare with open source. Which is huge organizations leveraging effectively their ability go get something widespread, widely adopted, quickly and efficiently by essentially publishing it as open source. And often, people get confused between these two ends of the spectrum. There's a bunch in between. What I like about OpenStack is that I think it's over the industrial trench warfare phase. You know, you just don't see a ton of people showing up here to throw parties and prove to everyone how cool they are. They've moved on to other open source projects. The people who are here are people who essentially have the real problem of I want to automate my data center, I want to have, essentially, a cloud that runs cost-effectively in my data center that I can use as part of a multi-cloud strategy. And so now I think we're in to that sort of, a more mature place with OpenStack. We're not either sort of artisan or craftsmen oriented, nor are we a guns blazing brand oriented. It's kind of now just solving the problems. >> Mark, there's still some nay-sayers out in the marketplace. Either they say that this never matured, there's a certain analyst firm that put out a report a couple of months ago that, it kind of denigrated what's happening here. And then there's others that, as you said, off chasing that next big wave of open source. What are you hearing from your customers? You've got a good footprint around the globe. >> So that report is nonsense, for a start. They're always wrong, right. If they're hyping something, they're wrong and if they're dissing something then they're usually wrong too. >> Stu: They have a cycle for that, I believe. (chuckling) >> Exactly. Selling gold at the barroom. Here's how I see it. I think that enterprises have a real problem, which is how do they create private cloud infrastructure. OpenStack had a real problem in that it had too many opinions, too many promises. Essentially a governing structure not a leadership structure. Our position on this has always been focus on the stuff that is really necessary. There was a ton of nonsense in OpenStack and that stuff is all failing. And so what? It was never essential to the mission. The mission is stand up a data center in an automated way, provide it, essentially, as resources, as a service to everybody who you think is authorized to be there, effectively. Segment and operate that efficiently. There's only a small part of OpenStack that was ever really focused on that. That's the stuff that's succeeding, that's the stuff we deliver. That's the stuff, we think very carefully about how to automate it so that, essentially, anybody can consume it at reasonable prices. Now, we have learned that it's better for us to do the operations almost. It's better for us actually to take it to people as a solution, say look, explain your requirements to us then let us architect that cloud with you then let us build that cloud then let us operate that cloud. Until it's all stable and the economics are good, then you can take over. I think what we have seen is that you ask every single different company to build OpenStack, they will make a bunch of mistakes and then they'll say OpenStack is the problem. OpenStack's not the problem. Because we do it again and again and again, because we do it in many different data centers, because we do it with many different industries, we're able to essentially put it on rails. When you consume OpenStack that way it's super cheap. These aren't my numbers, analysts have studied the costs of public infrastructure, the cost of the established, incumbent enterprise, virtualization solutions and so on. And they found that when you consume OpenStack from Canonical it is much, much cheaper than any of your other options in your own private data center. And I think that's a success that OpenStack should be proud of. >> Alright, you've always done a good job at poking at some of the discussions happening in the industry. I wouldn't say I was surprised but you were highlighting AI as something that was showing a lot of promise. People have been a little hot and cold depending on what part of the market you're at. Tell us about AI and I'd love to hear your thoughts in general. Kubernetes, Serverless, and ask you to talk about some of those new trends that are out there. >> Sure, the big problem with data science was always finding the right person to ask the right question. So you could get all the data in the world in a data lake but now you have to hire somebody who instinctively has to ask the right question that you can test out of that data. And that's a really hard problem. What machine learning does is kind of inverts the problem. It says, well, why don't we put all that data through a pattern matching system and then we'll end up with something that reflects the underlying patterns, even if we don't know what they are. Now, we can essentially say if you saw this, what would you expect? And that turns out to be a very powerful way to deal with huge amounts of data that, previously, you had to kind of have this magical intuition to kind of get to the bottom of. So I think machine learning is real, it's valuable in almost every industry, and the challenges now are really about standardizing underlying operations so that the people who focus on the business problems can, essentially, use them. So that's really what I wanted to show today is us working with, in that case it was Google, but you can generalize that. To standardize the experience for an institution who wants to hire developers, have them effectively build machine-driven models if they can then put those into production. There's a bunch of stuff I didn't show that's interesting. For example, you really want to take the learnings from machine-learning and you want to put those at the Edge. You want to react to what's happening as close to where it's happening as possible. So there's a bunch of stuff that we're working on with various companies. It's all about taking that AI outcome right to the Edge, to IOT, to Edge Cloud but we don't have time to get in to all of that today. >> Yeah, and Ubuntu is at the Edge, on the mobile platform. >> So we're in a great position that we're on the Cloud. Now you see what we're doing in the data center for enterprises, effectively recrafting the data center has a much leaner, more automated machine. Really driving down the cost of the data center. And yes, we're on the higher-end things. We're never going to be on the LightBulb. We're a full general-purpose operating system. But you can run Ubuntu on a $10 board now and that means that people are taking it everywhere. Amazon, for example, put Ubuntu on the DeepLens so that's a great example of AI at the edge. It's super exciting. >> So the Kubernetes, Serverless-type applications, what are your thinkings around there? >> Serverless is a lovely way to think about the flow of code in a distributed system. It's a really nice way to solve certain problems. What we haven't yet seen is we haven't seen a Serverless framework that you can port. We've seen great Serverless experiences being built inside the various public clouds but there's nothing consistent about them. Everything that you invest in a particular place is very useful there but you can't imagine taking that anywhere else. I think that's fine. >> Stu: Today's primarily Lando. >> And I think the other clouds have done a credible job of getting there quickly. But kudos to Amazon for kind of pioneering that. I do think we'll see generalized Serverless, it just doesn't exist at the moment and as soon as it does we'll be itching to get it into people's hands. >> Okay, yeah? >> Well, I just wanted to pull out something that you had said in case people miss it, you talked about managed OpenStack. And that, I think, managed Kubernetes has been a trend over the last year. Managed OpenStack now. Has been trans-- >> With these complex pieces of infrastructure, you could easily drown in learning it all and if you're only ever going to do one, maybe it makes sense to have somebody else do it for a while. You can always take it over later. So we're unusual in that we will essentially standup something complex like an OpenStack or a Kubernetes, operate it as long as people want and then train them to take over. So we're not exclusively managed and we're not exclusively arms-length. We're happy to start the one way and then hand over. >> I think that's an important development, though, that's been developing as the systems get more complicated. One UNIX admin needs a whole new skill set or broader skill set now that we're orchestrating a whole cloud so that's, I think that's great. And that's interesting. Anything else you're looking forward to, in terms of operation models. I guess we've said, Ubuntu everywhere from the edge to the center and now managed, as well. Anything else we're looking at in terms of operators should be looking at? >> Well, I think it just is going to stay sort of murky for a while simply because each different group inside a large institution has a boundary of their authority and to them, that's the edge. (chuckling) And so the term is heavily overloaded. But I would say, ultimately, there are a couple of underlying problems that have to be solved and if you look at the reference architectures that the various large institutions are putting out, they all show you how they're trying to attack these patterns using Ubuntu. One is physical provisioning. The one thing that's true with every Edge deployment is there are no humans there. So you can't kind of Band-Aid over the idea that when something breaks you need to completely be able to reset it from the ground up. So MAAS, Middle as a Service, shows up in the reference architectures from AT&T and from SoftBank and from Dorich Telecom and a bunch of others because it solves their problem. It's the smallest piece of software you can use to take one server or 10 servers or 100 servers and just reflash them with Windows or CentOS or whatever you need. That's one thing. The other thing that I think is consistently true in all these different H-Cloud permutations or combinations is that overhead's really toxic. If you need three nodes of overhead for a hundred node OpenStack, it's 3%. For a thousand node OpenStack, it's .3%. It's nothing, you won't notice it. If you need three nodes of OpenStack for a nine node Edge Cloud, well then that's 30% of your infrastructure costs. So really thinking through how to get the overhead down is kind of a key for us. And all the projects with telcos in particular that we're working, that's really what we bring is that underlying understanding and some of those really lightweight tools to solve those problems. On top of that, they're all different, right. Kubenetes here, Lixti there, OpenStack on the next one. AI everywhere. But those two problems, I think, are the consistent things we see as a pattern in the Edge. >> Alright, so Mark, last question I have for you. Company update. So last year we talked a little bit about focusing, where the company's going, talked a bit about the business model and you said to me, "Developers should never have to pay for anything." It's the governance people and everything like that. Give us the company update, everything from rumors from hey, maybe you're IPO-ing to what's happening, what can you share? >> Right, so the twin areas of focus, IOT and cloud infrastructure. IOT continues to be an area of R and D for us so we're still essentially underwriting an IOT investment. I'm very excited about that. I think it's the right thing to be doing at the moment. I think IOT is the next wave, effectively, and we're in a special position. We really can get down, both economically and operationally, into that sort of small itch kind of scenario. Cloud, for us, is a growth story. I talked a little bit about taking Ubuntu and Canonical into the finance sector. In one year, we closed deals with 20% of the top 20 banks in the world to build Ubuntu base and open infrastructure. That's a huge shift from the traditional dependence exclusively on VMware Red Hat. Now, suddenly, Ubuntu's in there, Canonical's in there. I think everybody understands that telcos really love Ubuntu and so that continues to grow for us. Commercially, we're expanding both in Emir and here in the Americas. I won't talk more about our corporate plans other than to say I see no reason for us to scramble to cover any other areas. I think cloud infrastructure and IOT is plenty for one company. For me, it's a privilege to combine that kind of business with what happens in the Ubuntu community. I'm still very passionate about the fact that we enable people to consume free software and innovate. And we do that without any friction. We don't have an enterprise version of Ubuntu. We don't need an enterprise version of Ubuntu, the whole thing's enterprise. Even if you're a one-person startup. >> Mark Shuttleworth, always a pleasure to catch up. Thank you so much for joining us. >> Mark: Thank you, Stu. >> For John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman. Back with lots more coverage here from OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. Thanks for watching theCUBE. (soft electronic music)

>> Announcer: Live from Copenhagen, Denmark, it's the CUBE, covering KubeCon and Cloud Native Con Europe 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. (busy music) >> Welcome back, everyone, live here in Copenhagen, Denmark, it's the CUBE's coverage of KubeCon 2018. I'm John Furrier, the host of the CUBE, along with Lauren Cooney, who's the founder of Spark Labs. She's been co-host with me two days, two days of wall to wall coverage. Stephan Fabel, Product Strategy Lead at Canonical, is here inside the CUBE, and from San Francisco. Again, welcome to the CUBE, thanks for coming. >> Thank you, thanks so much for having me. >> I've got to, you guys have been around the block, you know about open source software platforms, you get and do it for a while. Interesting time here at KubeCon. Kubernetes, Istio, Kubeflow, Cloud Native, they've still got the brand name CloudNativeCon and KubeCon. Modern application architecture's now in play. I see this notion of an interoperability model coming in that's certainly going to be a de facto standard. People are already kind of declaring it a de facto standard. It really shows a path to multi-cloud, but also frees up developers from a lot of the heavy lifting. Lou Tucker from Cisco was saying they don't want to do networking. Let's just have that be infrastructure as code, that's DevOps, that's what we want. >> Stephan: That is exactly right. >> What are you guys doing here? What's the story with Canonical and how does that fit into the megatrends? >> Yeah, I mean, there's a couple of things that we at Canonical always believe to be one of the core sort of tenets in our distribution of Kubernetes. As you know, we've been very active in this space fairly early on, and have been an active distributor of Kubernetes and a certified distributor of our version of Kubernetes. Pure upstream, remain conformant to the main public clouds, such as to enable that workload migration and mobility from on prem up to any of the other providers to accommodate all kinds of use cases, right. >> You guys made a bet on Kubernetes, obviously, good call. >> Stephan: Right. >> Right. What's the progress now, what's next? Because that's, the bets are paying off. I saw Red Hat had a great bet with what they did with Kubernetes, changed what OpenShift became. You guys had a bet in Kubernetes, what has that become for Canonical? >> Yeah, so based on the pure upstream distribution that we have, we really feel that enabling the ecosystem in a standards compliant way so that all of the landscape projects that are part of the CNCF can be deployed on top of Kubernetes, on top of our distribution of Kubernetes in just the same way that they would be developed or deployed in any of the large containers of service offerings that are out there is one of the big benefits that our customers would gain from using our Kubernetes. >> What's your differentiator for the distribution of Kubernetes that you have versus others? >> Well, there's two. The first one, I think, is the notion that deploying Kubernetes on premise is something that you want to do in a repeatable fashion, operationally efficient with the right capex opex mix, so we believe that there is a place for Kubernetes as a product, just deploy it, it works on any substrate that you've got available to you. But then also, for mainstream America, right, you may want to have a managed service on top of Kubernetes as well. We offer that, too, just a way to get started and kick the tires and see where that takes you as far as the developers are concerned. Now, on prem, you will find that there are a couple of challenges when deploying Kubernetes that are really the key differentiator. The first one, I would say, is things like integration into the storage that's local, integration into the network that's local, and integration into all of those services that should be available in the Cloud Native microservices architecture platform, such as low bouncers, right, elasticity, object store, etc. The second, and most importantly, because it is a key enabler for those next generation workloads, is the GPGPU enablement work that we're doing with partners such as NVIDIA. When you deploy the Canonical distribution of Kubernetes, you actually get the NVIDIA acceleration out of the box the way that NVIDIA envisions this on top of Kubernetes and the way that it is, by the way, being deployed on the public clouds. >> You bring a lot of your goodness to the table inside the Kubernetes distribution. OK, what are some customers doing? Give some use cases of some customers' Kubernetes, what are some of the things that they're doing with it, what's the early indication? What's the feedback? >> Sure. We have a ton of customers that are using our version of Kubernetes to do the machine learning applications and the AI of the next gen workloads in use cases such as smart cities or connected cars, where, when you look at self-driving cars, right, as the next gen that's coming out of the valley, they put in 300,000, 150,000, 400,000 miles a year on the road these days just optimizing the models that are being used to actually take over one day. Enabling those kinds of workloads in a distributed fashion requires DevOps expertise. Now, the people who are actually writing those applications are not DevOps people, they're data scientists, right. They shouldn't have to learn how to deploy Kubernetes, how to create a container and all those things. They should just be able to deploy the application on top an attractive substrate that actually supports that distributed application use case, and so that is where we come in. >> This is interesting, because what you're basically doing is making an application developer a DevOps developer overnight. >> Stephan: That's exactly right. >> That's really important. I was just talking with the co-chair of CNCF. We're talking about, Liz Rice and I were talking about why everyone's so, like, excited here. One of the things I said was, because people who are doing DevOps were hardcore, and they had to build everything from scratch, and all the scar tissue. But the benefits, once you got through the knothole there, the benefits were amazing, right. You go, okay, you don't want to do that again, but now there's a way to make it easier. There's kind of a shared experience even though no one's met each other, so there's kind of a joint community. >> I agree. I think it is increasingly about enabling developers who are experts in their field to actually leverage Kubernetes and the advantages that it brings in a more intuitive fashion. Just take it up a notch. >> How did the Kubernetes vibe integrate in with Canonical? I'm sure, given the background of the company, it probably was a nice fit, people embraced it. You guys were early. >> Stephan: Yeah. >> What's the internal scuttlebutt on the vibe with Kubernetes? >> Oh, we love Kubernetes as a technology. Ubuntu was always close to the developer and close to where the innovation happens. It was a natural fit to actually support all that workflow now in this new world of Kubernetes. We embraced OpenStack for the same reason, and in a similar fashion, Kubernetes has really driven the point home, containerist applications with a powerful orchestration framework such as Kubernetes are the next step for all the developers that are out there, and so as a consequence, this was a perfect match. >> It's also a no-brainer if you think about it, software methodology moving to the next level. This is total step up function for productivity for developers. That's really a key thing. What's your observation of that trend? Because at the end of the day, there's now Kubernetes, which does a lot of great things, but one of the hottest areas is Istio service meshes, and then you've got Kubeflow orchestration, a lot of other things that are happening around Kubernetes. What are you guys seeing that's important for Canonical's customers, what you're doing product wise. Where's the order of operations, what's next? What are you guys focused on, what's the priorities? >> Well, our biggest priority right now is enabling things like Kubeflow, which, by the way, are also using Istio internally, right, to actually enable those data scientists who actually deploy their I workload. We work very closely with Google to try and enable this in an on prem fashion out of the box which is something you can actually do today. >> John: You guys are doing this now inside this. >> We're doing this right now. This is also where we're going to double and triple down. >> This is actually your best practice, too, if you think about it, you want to take it in house, and then get a feel for it. What's the internal vibe on that, positive? >> Oh, absolutely. I mean, we always saw infrastructure as code and actually as intelligent infrastructure as something that we wanted to build our conceptual framework around, so very concretely, right. We've always had this notion of composable building blocks adding up to, sum of one being greater than two, right, like those types of scenarios. Actually using things like Kubernetes as an effective building block to then build out web applications that use things like machine learning algorithms underneath, that's a perfect use case for a next gen workload, and also something that we might use ourselves internally. >> Well, hey, that whole building block thing, it's happening. >> Stephan: Yeah. >> News flash. >> Stephan: Exactly, right? >> I mean, it's almost a pinch me moment for the people in the industry like, oh my god, it's going to go to a whole other level. How do you guys envision that next level going? Beyond the building blocks, is it, I mean, what's the vision that you guys have? Obviously, infrastructure as code programmability, but now, you're talking about infrastructure as code was great, but now you've got microservices growth coming on top of it, it's a services market now. >> It is, it is. I think that the biggest challenge will be the distribution of the workloads, right. You have edge compute coming along in the telco space, you have, like I said, smart cities, right, the sensors will be everywhere, and they will feed data back, and how do you manage that at scale, right? How do you manage that across various different hardware perspectives? We have hardware platforms such as ARM 64 picking up, right, and actually playing a very significant role at the edge, and increasingly, even in the core. We've always believed that providing that software and the distribution of IS such as Kubernetes and others on top of those additional architectures would make a huge difference, and that is clearly paying off. What we see is, the increased need of managing hybrid workloads across multi-cloud scenarios that could be composed of different architectures, not just x86, the future is not homogeneous at all. It'll be all over the place. All those use cases and all those particular situation require that building block principle, like all the way from the OS up to the application. >> John: That's a great use case for containers. Kubernetes, Istio, Kubeflow. >> Absolutely. >> All stacking in line beautifully from an evolution standpoint. I've got to ask you a personal question. I mean, I was at Canonical, great company, I want to thank Canonical for being a sponsor of the CUBE over the years. We've had Mark Shuttleworth on the CUBE had an OpenStack going way back when. You guys are a great participant in the community as a company and the people there been phenomenal. You're new. >> I'm new. >> What attracted you to Canonical? What was the motivating force? What drew you in? You're now running Products, a big job. You've got a lot in front of you. Obviously, it's a great market, so you're a great company. Just share, just color and why Canonical, what attracted you there? >> I've always been a user of Ubuntu, I've been a user since the first hour. I've used Ubuntu in my research. I did robotics based on Ubuntu way before it was cool. I built all kinds of things on top of Ubuntu throughout my entire career. Working for Canonical, which is a company that always exhibited great vision into the future and great predictions into trends that would prove to become true was just, for me, something that was very attractive. >> Their leadership has a good eye on the prize. They had good 20 mile stare, as we say, they can see the roadmap ahead and then make either course corrections or tweaks. >> Yeah. >> Great, awesome. Well, I mean, what's new there? What's your, take a minute to explain what's new at Canonical, role here at KubeCon, what are some of the conversations you're having? >> Yeah, so I mean, for us at KubeCon, it's always been an important part of our outreach to the community, great opportunity for us to have great conversations with our partners in the field. I think it is really about enabling the ecosystem in a more straightforward way. There's no better place to have those types of conversations than here, where everybody comes together and really establishes those relationships. For us, it is about, again, enabling the developer and really staying close to that innovation and supporting that in an optimal way. Yes, I mean, that, to us, is the role that we play. You've got a lot of end users here who are building stuff. >> Oh, absolutely, yeah. They, I mean, I had a talk today about Kubeflow with Google, and after the talk, lots of folks came up to me and said, hey, how can I use this at home, right? >> Sometimes with, whether it's timing, technology, all the above, Kubernetes really hit it strong with the timing, industry was ready for it. Containers had a nice gestation period. People know about containers. >> Stephan: Absolutely. >> Engineers know containers, know about those kinds of concepts. Now we're at a whole other operating environment. >> Stephan: Absolutely. >> You guys are at the forefront. Thanks for coming on the CUBE. >> Oh, thank you, I appreciate it. >> Stephan sharing the perspective, Stephan Fabel. Running Product and Strategy for Canonical, building stuff, this is what's going on in Kubernetes in KubeCon, end users are actually building and orchestrating workloads. Multi-cloud is what people are talking about and the tech to make it happen is here. I'm John Furrier with the CUBE. Stay with us for more live coverage here at KubeCon 2018, part of the CNCF CUBE coverage. We'll be right back after this short break. (busy music)

>> Announcer: Live from Austin, Texas, it's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2017. Brought to you by: Red Hat, the Linux Foundation, and theCUBE's ecosystem partners. >> Hey, welcome back everyone. And we're live here in Austin, Texas. This is theCUBE's exclusive coverage of the Cloud Native conference and KubeCon for Kubernetes Conference. This is for the Linux Foundation. This is theCUBE. I'm John Furrier, the co-founder of Silicon ANGLE Media. My co, Stu Miniman. Our next guest is Dustin Kirkland Vice-President of product. The Ubuntu, Canonical, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you, John. >> So you're the product guy. You get the keys to the kingdom, as they would say in the product circles. Man, what a best time to be-- >> Dustin: They always say that. I don't think I've heard that one. >> Well, the product guys are, well all the action's happening on the product side. >> Dustin: We're right in the middle of it. >> Cause you got to have a road map. You got to have a 20 mile steer on the next horizon while you go up into the pasture and deliver value, but you always got to be watching for it always making decision on what to do, when to ship product, not you got the Cloud things are happening at a very accelerated rate. And then you got to bring it out to the customers. >> That's right. >> You're livin' on both sides of the world You got to look inside, you got to look outside. >> All three. There's the marketing angle too. which is what we're doing here right now. So there's engineering sales and this is the marketing. >> Alright so where are we with this? Because now you guys have always been on the front lines of open source. Great track record. Everyone knows the history there. What are the new things? What's the big aha moment that this event, largest they've had ever. They're not even three years old. Why is this happening? >> I love seeing these events in my hometown Austin, Texas. So I hope we keep coming back. The aha moment is how application development is fundamentally changing. Cloud Native is the title of the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and CloudNativeConference here. What does Cloud Native mean? It's a different form of writing applications. Just before we were talking about systems programing right? That's not exactly Cloud Native. Cloud Native programming is writing to API's that are Cloud exposed API's, integrating with software as a service. Creating applications that have no intelligence, whatsoever, about what's underneath them, Right? But taking advantage of that and all the ways that you would want and expect in a modern application. Fault tolerance, automatic updates, hyper security. Just security, security, security. That is the aha moment. The way applications are being developed is fundamentally changing. >> Interesting perspective we had on earlier. Lew Tucker from Cisco, (mumbles) in the (mumbles) History Museum, CTO at Cisco, and we have Kelsey Hightower co-chair for this conference and also very active in the community. Yet, in the perspective, and I'll over simplify and generalize it, but basically was: Hey, that's been going on for 30 years, it's just different now. Tell us the old way and new way. Because the old way, you kind of describing it you're going to build your own stuff, full stack, building all parts of the stack and do a lot of stuff that you didn't want to do. And now you have more, especially time on your hands if DevOps and infrastructure as code starts to happen. But doesn't mean that networking goes away, doesn't mean storage goes away, that some new lines are forming. Describe that dynamic of what's new and the new way what changes from the old way? >> Virtualization has brought about a different way of thinking about resources. Be those compute resources, chopping CPU's up into virtual CPU's, that's KVM ware. You mentioned network and storage. Now we virtualized both of those into software defined storage and software defined networking, right? We have things like OpenStack that brings that all together from an infrastructure perspective. and we now have Kubernetes that brings that to fare from an application perspective. Kubernetes helps you think about applications in a different way. I said that paradigm has changed. It's Kubernetes that helps implement that paradigm. So that developers can write an application to a container orchestrator like Kubernetes and take advantage of many of the advances we've made below that layer in the operating system and in the Cloud itself. So from that perspective the game has changed and the way you write your application is not the same as a the monolithic app we might have written on an IBM or a traditional system. >> Dustin, you say monolithic app versus oh my gosh the multi layered cake that we have today. We were talking about the keynote this morning where CNCF went from four projects to 14 projects, you got Kubernetes, You got things like DSDU on top. Help up tease that a little bit. What are the ones that, where's canonical engaged? What are you hearing from customers? What are they excited about? What are they still looking for? >> In a somewhat self-serving way, I'll use this opportunity to explain exactly what we do in helping build that layered cake. It starts with the OS. We provide a great operating system, Ubuntu that every developer would certainly know and understand and appreciate. That's the kernel, that's the systemd, that's the hyperviser, that's all the storage and drivers that makes an operating system work well on hardware. Lot's of hardware, IBM, Dell HP, Intel, all the rest. As well as in virtual machines, the public Clouds, Microsoft, Amazon, Google, VM ware and others. So, we take care of that operating system perspective. Within the CNCF and within in the Kubernetes ecosystem, It really starts with the Kubernetes distribution. So we provide a Kubernetes distribution, we call it Canonicals Distribution of Kubernetes, CDK. Which is open source Kubernetes with security patches applied. That's it. No special sauce, no extra proprietary extensions. It is open source Kubernetes. The reference platform for open source Kubernetes 100% conformed. Now, once you have Kubernetes as you say, "What are you hearing from customers?" We hear a lot of customers who want a Kubernetes. Once they have a Kubernetes, the next question is: "Now what do I do with it?" If they have applications that their developers have been writing to Google's Kubernetes Engine GKE, or Amazon's Kubernetes Engine, the new one announced last week at re:Invent, AKS. Or Microsoft's Kubernetes Engine, Microsoft-- >> Microsoft's AKS, Amazons EKS. A lot of TLA's out there, always. >> Thank you for the TLA dissection. If you've written the applications already having your own Kubernetes is great, because then your applications simply port and run on that. And we help customers get there. However, if you haven't written your first application, that's where actually, most of the industry is today. They want a Kubernetes, but they're not sure why. So, to that end, we're helping bring some of the interesting workloads that exists, open source workloads and putting those on top of Canonical Kubernetes. Yesterday, we press released a new product from Canonical, launched in conjunction with our partners at Rancher Labs, Which is the Cloud Native platform. The Cloud Native platform is Ubuntu plus Kubernetes plus Rancher. That combination, we've heard from customers and from users of Ubuntu inside and out. Everyone's interested in a developer work flow that includes open-source Ubuntu, open-source Kubernetes and open-source Rancher, Which really accelerates the velocity of development. And that end solution provides exactly that and it helps populate, that Kubernetes with really interesting workloads. >> Dustin, so we know Sheng, Shannon and the team, they know a thing or two about building stacks with open source. We've talked with you many times, OpenStack. Give us a little bit of compare and contrast, what we've been doing with OpenStack with Canonical, very heavily involved, doing great there versus the Cloud Native stacking. >> If you know Shannon and Sheng, I think you can understand and appreciate why Mark, myself and the rest of the Canonical team are really excited about this partnership. We really see eye-to-eye on open source principles First. Deliver great open source experiences first. And then taking that to market with a product that revolves around support. Ultimately, developer option up front is what's important, and some of those developer applications will make its way into production in a mission critical sense. Which open up support opportunities for both of us. And we certainly see eye-to-eye from that perspective. What we bring to bare is Ubuntu ecosystem of developers. The Ubuntu OpenStack infrastructure is a service where we've seen many of the world's largest organizations deploying their OpenStacks. Doing so on Ubuntu and with Ubuntu OpenStacks. With the launch of Kubernetes and Canonical Kubernetes, many of those same organizations are running their own Kubernetes along side OpenStack. Or, in some cases, on top of OpenStack. In a very few cases, instead of Openstack, in very special cases, often at the Edge or in certain tiny Cloud or micro Cloud scenarios. In all of these we see Rancher as a really, really good partner in helping to accelerate that developer work flow. Enabling developers to write code, commit code to GitHub repository, with full GitHub integration. Authenticate against an active directory with full RBAC controls. Everything that you would need in an enterprise to bring that application to bare from concept, to development, to test into production, and then the life cycle, once it gains its own life in production. >> What about the impact of customers? So, I'm an IT guy or I'm an architect and man, all this new stuff's comin' at me. I love my open source, I'm happy with space. I don't want to touch it, don't want to break it, but I want to innovate. This whole world can be a little bit noisy and new to them. How do you have that conversation with that potential customer or customer where you say, Look, we can get there. Use your app team here's what you want to shape up to be, here's service meshes and plugable, Whoa plugable (mumbles)! So, again, how do you simplify that when you have conversations? What's the narrative? What's the conversation like? >> Usually our introduction into the organization of a Fortune 500 company is by the developers inside of that company who already know Ubuntu. Who already have some experience with Kubernetes or have some experience with Rancher or any of those other-- >> So it's a bottoms up? >> Yeah, it's bottoms up. Absolutely, absolutely. The developer network around Ubuntu is far bigger than the organization that is Canonical. So that helps us with the intro. Once we're in there, and the developers write those first few apps, we do get the introductions to their IT director who then wants that comfy blanket. Customer support, maybe 24 by seven-- >> What's the experience like? Is it like going to the airport, go through TSA, and you got to take your shoes off, take your belt off. What kind of inspection, what is kind of is the culture because they want to move fast, but they got to be sure. There's always been the challenge when you have the internal advocate saying, "Look, if we want to go this way "this is going to be more the reality for companies." Developers are now major influencers. Not just some, here's the product we made a decision and they ship it to 'em, it's shifted. >> If there's one thing that I've learned in this sort of product management assignment, I'm a engineer by trade, but as a product manager now for almost five years, is that you really have to look at the different verticals and some verticals move at vastly different paces than other verticals. When we are in the tele close phase, We're in RFI's, requests for a quote or a request for information that may last months, nine months. And then go through entering into a procurement process that may last another nine months. And we're talking about 18 months in an industry here that is spinning up, we're talking about how fast this goes, which is vastly different than the work we do in Silicon Valley, right? With some of the largest dot-coms in the world that are built on Ubuntu, maybe an AWS or else where. Their adoption curve is significantly different and the procurement angle is really different. What they're looking to buy often on the US West Coast is not so much support, but they're looking to guide your roadmap. We offer for customers of that size and scale a different set of products something we call feature sponsorships, where those customers are less interested in 24 by seven telephone support and far more interested in sponsoring certain features into Ubuntu itself and helping drive the Ubuntu roadmap. We offer both of those a products and different verticals buy in different ways. We talked to media and entertainment, and the conversation's completely different. Oil and gas, conversation's completely different. >> So what are you doing here? What's the big effort at CloudNativeCon? >> So we've got a great booth and we're talking about Ubuntu as a pretty universal platform for almost anything you're doing in the Cloud. Whether that's on frame infrastructure as a service, OpenStack. People can coo coo OpenStack and point OpenStack versus Kubernetes against one another. We cannot see it more differently-- >> Well no I think it's more that it's got clarity on where the community's lines are because apps guys are moving off OpenStack that's natural. It's really found the home, OpenStack very relevant huge production flow, I talk to Johnathon Bryce about this all the time. There's no co cooing OpenStack. It's not like it's hurting. Just to clarify OpenStack is not going anywhere its just that there's been some comments about OpenStack refugees going to (mumbles), but they're going there anyway! Do you agree? >> Yeah I agree, and that choice is there on Ubuntu. So infrastructure is a service, OpenStack's a fantastic platform, platforms as a service or Cloud Native through Cloud Native development Kubernetes is an excellent platform. We see those running side by side. Two racks a systems or a single rack. Half of those machines are OpenStack, Half of those are Kubernetes and the same IT department manages both. We see IT departments that are all in OpenStack. Their entire data center is OpenStack. And we see Kubernetes as one workload inside of that Openstack. >> How do you see Kubernetes impact on containers? A lot of people are coo cooing containers. But they're not going anywhere either. >> It's fundamental. >> The ecosystem's changing, certainly the roles of each part (mumbles) is exploding. How do you talk about that? What's your opinion on how containers are evolving? >> Containers are evolving, but they've been around for a very long time as well. Kubernetes has helped make containers consumable. And doctored to an extent, before that the work we've done around Linux containers LXE LEXT as well. All of those technologies are fundamental to it and it take tight integration with the OS. >> Dustin, so I'm curious. One of the big challenges I have the U face is the proliferation of deployments for customers. It's not just data center or even Cloud. Edge is now a very big piece of it. How do you think that containers helps enable the little bit of that Cloud Native goes there, but what kind of stresses does that put on your product organization? >> Containers are adding fuel to the fire on both the Edge and the back end Cloud. What's exciting to me about the Edge is that every Edge device, every connected device is connected to something. What's it connected to, a Cloud somewhere. And that can be an OpenStack Cloud or a Kubernetes Cloud, that can be a public Cloud, that could be a private implementation of that Cloud. But every connected device, whether its a car or a plane or a train or a printer or a drone it's connected to something, it's connected to a bunch of services. We see containers being deployed on Ubuntu on those Edge devices, as the packaging format, as the application format, as the multi-tendency layer that keeps one application from DOSing or attacking or being protected from another application on that Edge device. We also see containers running the micro services in the Cloud on Ubuntu there as well. The Edge to me, is extremely interesting in how it ties back to the Cloud and to be transparent here, Canonical strategy and Canonical's play is actually quiet strong here with Ubuntu providing quite a bit of consistency across those two layers. So developers working on those applications on those devices, are often sitting right next to the developers working on those applications in the Cloud and both of them are seeing Ubuntu helping them go faster. >> Bottom line, where do you see the industry going and how do you guys fit into the next three years, what's your prediction? >> I'm going to go right back to what I was saying right there. That the connection between the Edge and the Cloud is our angle right there, and there is nothing that's stopping that right now. >> We were just talking with Joe Beda and our view is if it's a shoot and computing world, everything's an Edge. >> Yeah, that's right. That's exactly right. >> (mumbles) is an Edge. A light in a house is an Edge with a processor in it. >> So I think the data centers are getting smarter. You wanted a prediction for next year: The data center is getting smarter. We're seeing autonomous data centers. We see data centers using metals as a service mask to automatically provision those systems and manage those systems in a way that hardware look like a Cloud. >> AI and IOT, certainly two topics that are really hot trends that are very relevant as changing storage and networking those industries have to transform. Amazon's tele (mumbles), everything like LAN and serverless, you're starting to see the infrastructure as code take shape. >> And that's what sits on top of Kubernetes. That's what's driving Kubernetes adoption are those AI machine learning artificial intelligence workloads. A lot of media and transcoding workloads are taking advantage of Kubernetes everyday. >> Bottom line, that's software. Good software, smart software. Dustin, Thanks so much for coming theCube. We really appreciate it. Congratulations. Continued developer success. Good to have a great ecosystem. You guys have been successful for a very long time. As the world continues to be democratized with software as it gets smarter more pervasive and Cloud computing, grid computing, Unigrid. Whatever it's called it is all done by software and the Cloud. Thanks for coming on. It's theCube live coverage from Austin, Texas, here at KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2017. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman, We'll be back with more after this short break. (lively music)

>> Narrator: Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE covering AWS re:Invent 2017 presented by AWS, Intel, and our ecosystem of partners. >> We are life back here in Las Vegas at the Sands Expo as we continue our coverage here on theCUBE of re:Invent, AWS here on the fourth day of what has been a very successful show. I still hear a lot of buzz, a lot of activity on the show floor. It certainly indicative of what happened here in terms of bringing this community together in a very positive way. I'm with Justin Warren, I'm John Walls. We go from Justin to Dustin, Dustin Kirkland, who is the vice president of product development for Ubuntu on the Canonical. It's good to see you again. >> Likewise, John. >> I should let the two of you probably chat about Australia. We heard these great diving stories about your adventures, your home, your native country. >> Yep. >> Maybe afterwards will get a little photos, travel thing going on. >> Yeah that's right. (laughing) >> All right, 17 years you have been diving. Were going to have to get into that a little bit later on. First off, let's talk about Ubuntu, and maybe the footprint within AWS. Maybe not only what brings you here, but what gets you there? What are you doing there? >> First of all, this is a fantastic conference. Hundreds of these organizations here are involved in Ubuntu, using Ubuntu in AWS and taking advantage of open source, using it for lots of scale out services. To date this year in 2017, over 125 million instances of Ubuntu have launched in AWS alone just this year, and the year is not even over yet. We see anything from media entertainment. Netflix is here. I spent some time with them. One of Netflix's performance engineers gave a talk yesterday about how Netflix tunes their Ubuntu instances in Amazon to the tune of 100,000 instances of Ubuntu running in Amazon to deliver the Netflix experience that I'm sure all of us have. >> John: 100,000? >> Yeah. >> That's amazing. >> It's crazy, yeah. >> I'm a big fan of Ubuntu because I am a mad person. I've been running it as my primary desktop for something like 10 years. >> All right! >> I run it on a laptop. >> Okay. >> I love it, it's great. >> Good. >> People use Ubuntu all the time but it's like it just became the de facto, it seems like overnight of pretty much, hey, if you want to run Linux in cloud, you just spin up in Ubuntu. Just run it up, so what is it about Ubuntu itself, where are you taking the product for people who are using it in cloud? We are hearing a lot about all these different services, and we are hearing about serverless, so how does Ubuntu fit into that AWS world? >> That's a great question. First of all, it's not overnight. We have been doing this since 2004, so we are going on 14 years of building the thing that is Ubuntu. We brought Ubuntu into Amazon in about 2008, which is right when I got involved at Canonical. I was working on Ubuntu before that, but working for Canonical, and that was relatively early in the entire Amazon adventure. You said Ubuntu on the desktop. That's certainly where Ubuntu got its start, but it was Amazon that really busted Ubuntu out into the server space, and so now as you said, if you are starting a new company or a new technology, you almost by default start on Ubuntu. Now where are we taking that? Here we are talking about cloud, but the other half of cloud is the edge. The edge being embedded devices, embedded IOT connected devices. The thing about every IOT device, the I in IOT is Internet. The connected part of a connected device means it has to be connected to something, and what is going to be connected to? The cloud. Every smart autonomous driving vehicle, every oil rig out in West Texas, every airplane, every boat, every ship, every place where you are going to find compute in these next couple of years as we move into the 5G revolution, are connected to services on the backend, the majority of those hosted in Amazon, and the majority of those running Ubuntu. >> When you talk about IOT though, what kind of challenges that that bring into your world? Because you are talking about this, I mean, I can't even think about the order of growth. >> Yeah, billions, literally billions. >> It's just massive connectivity, and in a mobile environment, throw that on top of that, so what does that do for you then in terms of what you are looking at down the road and the kind of capabilities that you have got to build in? >> Security, I mean it starts with security. When we think about devices in our homes accompanying our kids to school, devices that are inside of buses and hospitals, it's all about security, and security is first and foremost. We put a lot of effort into securing Ubuntu. We've created new features as part of where we are taking Ubuntu. Many of the new features we created around Ubuntu are about updates, security updates, being able to make those updates active without rebooting the system, so zero downtime kernel updates is something we call a live patch service which we deliver in Amazon for Ubuntu Amazon users. Extended security maintenance. Security for Ubuntu after end-of-life, say you said you've been using Ubuntu for a long time. Each Ubuntu release has basically a five year lifecycle but some enterprises actually need to run Ubuntu for much longer than five years, and for those enterprises, we provide security updates after the end of life, after that five-year end-of-life, and in many cases, that helps them bridge that gap until the next release of Ubuntu. We've also worked with IBM and the US government to provide FIPS certified cryptography for Ubuntu also available in Amazon, so the Department of Defense contractors, many federal contractors are required to use FIPS bits, and this actually allows them to bring their Ubuntu usage into compliance with what's required for government regulation. >> I'm so glad that you went from IOT to security in, like, a nanosecond. That was going to be my next question. >> Well that is the only answer to that. It's the only right answer to that question in my mind. >> Not enough companies put that much focus on security and you follow it up with specific concrete examples of things that are going to work. The live kernel patching without rebooting things so that you can have the-- I mean, services in the cloud, it has to be always on. You can't take a maintenance window when something is down four hours or a weekend. That's just not acceptable in the cloud world anymore. >> Especially in the retail season. We are just now getting into the retail-- you know, Black Friday was last week, Cyber Monday this week, and the roll up all the way to Christmas, Canonical works with quite a bit with the largest retailers in the world, Walmart, Best Buy, other ones like that, and downtime is just not acceptable. At the same time, security is of the utmost importance. When you are taking people's credit cards, you are placing large amounts of money on the line every time these transactions take place. Security has to be utmost, and being able to do that without impacting the downtime. Downtime is seriously hundreds of thousands of dollars per second on some of these sites during the major holiday rush. >> You just mentioned some of the big names you're working with, so what kind of assurance can you give them that you can sleep with both eyes closed? You don't have to keep that one eye open. Don't worry, if there is an incident of some kind, we are going to take care of it. If you have a problem, rest assured, we are going to be there because, as you pointed out, with the volume involved and the issues of security infiltrations being what they are today, it's hard to rest. >> Right, the return on value, the return on investment of the live patch is easily apparent. Any time someone does the math and realizes, "Let's actually look at how much it costs us "to reboot a data center, "or how much it costs us to wake up the dev ops team "on a Saturday and have them work through a weekend "to roll out this update," whereas with the live patch, at least the patch is applied in milliseconds without downtime, and then we get back on Monday and we rollout a comprehensive plan as to what do we actually need to do about this going forward? That is for the kernel side of things. The other half of it is the user space side of Ubuntu. In the user space side of Ubuntu, we continue to make Ubuntu smaller, smaller and smaller. That might be one of the reasons you are attracted to Ubuntu on your laptop early on is because we really did a good job of making a Linux that was consumable, usable, but also very small and secure. We've actually taken that same approach in the cloud where we continue to minimize the footprint of Ubuntu. That has a security impact in that if you simply leave software out of the default image you are not vulnerable to problems in that software, so we've heard that quite a bit around the container space, the work we do in the container space. We will be in Austin next week for CUBE Con talking about containers. I will save the container talk for next week, but minimizing Ubuntu is an important of that security story as well. >> All right, just reducing that attack surface is fabulous. It also means that when you are actually doing this patching, it's less things to patch, there are less opportunities for downtime, there are less things that can go wrong and cause outages in the rest of the place. Simple is better. >> Dustin : That's right, that's exactly right. >> What else are you doing? We've talked about security a lot here. What are some of the other things that you are doing around supporting the services that we are hearing here at AWS? We've heard a lot about things like serverless. We've heard a lot about high performance computing. We've had guests here on theCUBE talking about what they are doing around data analytics and machine learning, so maybe you could give us a little bit of color around that. >> Let's start with that last point, machine learning and data analytics. We work very closely with both Amazon and Nvidia to enable the GPGPUs, the general-purpose graphics processing units that Nvidia produces which go into servers and Amazon exposes in the some of the largest machine learning type instances. Those instances powered by Ubuntu are working directly with that GPU out of the box by default, and that's something that we've worked very hard on and closely with both Amazon and Nvidia to make sure the Ubuntu experience when using the graphics accelerated instance types just work, and just work out of the box. Those are important for the machine learning and the data analytics because many of those algorithms take advantage of CUDA. CUDA is a set of libraries that allows developers to write applications that scale very, very wide across the CUDA cores, so a given Nvidia GPU may have several thousand Nvidia CUDA cores. Each of those are running little process bits and then the answers are summed up, basically, at the end. That is at the heart of everything that's happening in the AI space, and that I will tie that back to our IOT space in that for those connected devices where memory discs, CPU, power are very constrained, part of the important part of that connection is that they are talking to a cloud that has essentially infinite resources, infinite data at its disposal, enough memory to load those entire data sets and crunch those. The fastest CPUs and the fastest GPUs that can crunch that data, so to really take that and make that real, that's exactly what's powering every autonomous vehicle in the world, essentially, is a little unit inside of the car, a majority of those autonomous vehicles are running Ubuntu on the auto driving unit. Tesla, Google, Uber, all running Ubuntu inside of that car. Every one of those cars are talking to a cloud. Some clouds are Amazon, other, in Google's case, certainly the Google cloud, but they are talking to GPU Nvidia powered AI instances that are crunching all the data that these Tesla cars and GM, and Ford cars are sending to the cloud and constantly making the inference engine better. What gets downloaded to the car is an updated inference engine. That inference engine comes down to the car, and that's how that car decides is it safe to change lanes right now or not? That answer has to be determined inside of the car, not in the cloud, but you can understand why data training and modeling in the cloud is powerful, far more powerful than what can happen inside of a little CPU in a the car. >> John: Let's just keep it on the right side of the road. Can we do that? (laughing) >> Well, you need to talk to this gentleman about that. >> Yeah, I drive on the left side. (laughing) >> Or the left side of the road. >> Don't cross the streams. >> How about the correct side of the road? >> Don't cross the streams. >> Dustin thanks for the time. >> Thank you, John. >> Always good seeing you. >> Likewise. >> And we'll see you next week as well. Down in your hometown, a little barbecue in Austin. >> That sounds good. >> All right, back with more here at re:Invent. We are live in Las Vegas back with more on theCUBE in just a bit.

>> Announcer: Live from Manhattan, it's theCube, covering AWS Summit, New York City, 2017. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services. >> Welcome back to the Big Apple as we continue our coverage here on theCube of AWS Summit 2017. We're at the Javits Center. We're in midtown. A lot of hustle and bustle outsie and inside there, good buzz on the show floor with about 5,000 strong attending and some 20,000 registrants also for today's show. Along with Stu Miniman, I'm John Walls, and glad to have you here on theCube. And Dustin Kirkland now joins us. He's at Ubuntu, the product and strategy side of things at Canonical, and Dustin, good to see you back on theCube. >> Thank you very much. >> You just threw a big number out at us when we were talking off camera. I'll let you take it from there, but it shows you about the presence, you might say, of Ubuntu and AWS, what that nexus is right now. >> Ubuntu easily leads as the operating system in Amazon. About 70%, seven zero, 70% of all instances running in Amazon right now are running Ubuntu. And that's actually, despite the fact that Amazon have their own Amazon Linux and there are other, Windows, Rails, SUSE, Debian, Fedora, other alternatives. Ubuntu still represents seven out of 10 workloads in Amazon running right now. >> John: Huge number. >> So, Dustin, maybe give us a little insight as to what kind of workloads you're seeing. How much of this was people that, Ubuntu has a great footprint everywhere and therefore it kind of moved there. And how much of it is new and interesting things, IOT and machine learning and everything like that, where you also have support. >> When you're talking about that many instances, that's quite a bit of boat, right? So if you look at just EC2 and the two types of workloads, there are the long-running workloads. The workloads that are up for many months, years in some cases. I met a number of customers here this week that are running older versions of Ubuntu like 12.04 which are actually end of life, but as a customer of Canonical we continue providing security updates. So we have a product called Extended Security Maintenance. There's over a million instances of Ubuntu 12.04 which are already end of life but Canonical can continue providing security updates, critical security updates. That's great for the long-running workloads. The other thing that we do for long-running workloads are kernel live patches. So we're able to actually fix vulnerabilities in the Linux kernel without rebooting, using entirely upstream and open source technology to do that. So for those workloads that stay up for months or years, the combination of Extended Security Maintenance, covering it for a very long time, and the kernel live patch, ensuring that you're able to patch those vulnerabilities without rebooting those systems, it's great for hosting providers and some enterprise workloads. Now on the flip side, you also see a lot of workloads that are spikey, right. Workloads that come and go in bursts. Maybe they run at night or in the morning or just whenever an event happens. We see a lot of Ubuntu running there. It's really, a lot of that is focused on data and machine learning, artificial intelligence workloads, that run in that sort of bursty manner. >> Okay, so it was interesting, when I hear you talk about some things that have been running for a bunch of years, and on the other side of the spectrum is serverless and the new machine learning stuff where it tends to be there, what's Canonical doing there? What kind of exciting, any of the news, Macey, Glue, some of these other ones that came out, how much do those fit into the conversations you're having? >> Sure, they all really fit. When we talk about what we're doing to tune Ubuntu for those machine learning workloads, it really starts with the kernel. So we actually have an AWS-optimized Linux kernel. So we've taken the Ubuntu Linux kernel and we've tuned it, working with the Amazon kernel engineers, to ensure that we've carved out everything in that kernel that's not relevant inside of an Amazon data center and taken it out. And in doing so, we've actually made the kernel 15% smaller, which actually reduces the security footprint and the storage footprint of that kernel. And that means smaller downloads, smaller updates, and we've made it boot 30% faster. We've done that by adding support, turning on, configuring on some parameters that enable virtualization or divert IO drivers or specifically the Amazon drivers to work really well. We've also removed things like floppy disk drives and Bluetooth drivers, which you'll never find in a virtual machine in Amazon. And when you take all of those things in aggregate and you remove them from the kernel, you end up with a much smaller, better, more efficient package. So that's a great starting point. The other piece is we've ensured that the latest and greatest graphics adapters, the GPUs, GPGPUs from Invidia, that the experienced on Ubuntu out of the box just works. It works really well, and well at scale. You'll find almost all machine learning workloads are drastically improved inside of GPGPU instances. And for the dollar, you're able to compute sometimes hundreds or thousands of times more efficiently than a fewer CPU type workload. >> You're talking about machine learning, but on the artificial intelligence side of life, a lot of conversation about that at the keynotes this morning. A lot of good services, whatever, again, your activity in that and where that's going, do you think, over the next 12, 16 months? >> Yes, so artificial intelligence is a really nice place where we see a lot of Ubuntu, mainly because the nature of how AI is infiltrating our lives. It has these two sides. One side is at the edge, and those are really fundamentally connected devices. And for every one of those billions of devices out there, there are necessarily connections to an instance in the cloud somewhere. So if we take just one example, right, an autonomous vehicle. That vehicle is connected to the internet. Sometimes well, when you're at home, parked in the garage or parked at Whole Foods, right? But sometimes it's not. You're in the middle of the desert out in West Texas. That autonomous vehicle needs to have a lot of intelligence local to that vehicle. It gets downloaded opportunistically. And what gets downloaded are the results of that machine learning, the results of that artificial intelligence process. So we heard in the keynotes quite a bit about data modeling, right? Data modeling means putting a whole bunch of data into Amazon, which Amazon has made it really easy to do with things like Snowball and so forth. Once the data is there, then the big GPGPU instances crunch that data and the result is actually a very tight, tightly compressed bit of insight that then gets fed to devices. So an autonomous vehicle that every single night gets a little bit better by tweaking its algorithms, when to brake, when to change lanes, when to make a left turn safely or a right turn safely, those are constantly being updated by all the data that we're feeding that. Now why I said that's important from an Ubuntu perspective is that we find Ubuntu in both of those locations. So we open this by saying that Ubuntu is the leading operating system inside of Amazon, representing 70% of those instances. Ubuntu is, across the board, right now in 100% of the autonomous vehicles that are running today. So Uber's autonomous vehicle, the Tesla vehicles, the Google vehicles, a number of others from other manufacturers are all running Ubuntu on the CPU. There's usually three CPUs in a smart car. The CPU that's running the autonomous driving engine is, across the board, running Ubuntu today. The fact that it's the same OS makes it, makes life quite nice for the developers. The developers who are writing that software that's crunching the numbers in the cloud and making the critical real-time decisions in the vehicle. >> You talk about autonomous vehicles, I mean, it's about a car in general, thousands of data points coming in, in continual real time. >> Dustin: Right. >> So it's just not autonomous -- >> Dustin: Right. >> operations, right? So are you working in that way, diagnostics, navigation, all those areas? >> Yes, so we catch as headlines are a lot of the hobbyist projects, the fun stuff coming out of universities or startup space. Drones and robots and vacuum cleaners, right? And there's a lot of Ubuntu running there, anything from Raspberry Pis to smart appliances at home. But it's actually, I think, really where those artificially intelligent systems are going to change our lives, is in the industrial space. It's not the drone that some kids are flying around in the park, it's the drone that's surveying crops, that's coming to understand what areas of a field need more fertilizer or less water, right. And that's happening in an artificially intelligent way as smarter and smarter algorithms make its way onto those drones. It's less about the running Pandora and Spotify having to choose the right music for you when you're sitting in your car, and a lot more about every taxicab in the city taking data and analytics and understanding what's going on around them. It's a great way to detect traffic patterns, potentially threats of danger or something like that. That's far more industrial and less intresting than the fun stuff, you know, the fireworks that are shot off by a drone. >> Not nearly as sexy, right? It's not as much fun. >> But that's where the business is, you know. >> That's right. >> One of the things people have been looking at is how Amazon's really maturing their discussion of hyrid cloud. Now, you said that data centers, public cloud, edge devices, lots of mobile, we talked about IOT and everything, what do you see from customers, what do you think we're going to see from Amazon going forward to build these hybrid architectures and how does that fit in to autonomous vehicles and the like? >> So in the keynote we saw a couple of organizations who were spotlighted as all-in on Amazon, and that's great. And actually almost all of those logos that are all-in on Amazon are all-in on Amazon on Ubuntu and that's great. That's a very small number of logos compared to the number of organizations out there that are actually hybrid. Hybrid is certainly a ramp to being all-in but for quite a bit of the industry, that's the journey and the destination, too, in fact. That there's always going to be some amount compute that happens local and some amount of compute that happens in the cloud. Ubuntu helps provide an important portability layer. Knowing something runs well on Ubuntu locally, it's going to run well on Ubuntu in Amazon, or vise versa. The fact that it runs well in Amazon, it will also run well on Ubuntu locally. Now we have a support -- >> Yeah, I was just curious, you talked about some of the optimization you made for AWS. >> Dustin: Right. >> Is that now finding its way into other environments or do we have a little bit of a fork? >> We do, it does find it's way back into other environments so, you know, the Amazon hypervisors are usually Xen-based, although there are some interesting other things coming from Amazon there. Typically what we find on-prem is usually more KVM or Vmware based. Now, most of what goes into that virtual kernel that we build for Amazon actually applies to the virtual kernel that we built for Ubuntu that runs in Xen and Vmware and KVM. There's some subtle differences. Some, a few things that we've done very specifically for Amazon, but for the most part it's perfectly compatible all the way back to the virtual machines that you would run on-prem. >> Well, Dustin, always a pleasure, >> Yeah. >> to have you hear on theCube. >> Thanks, John. >> You're welcome back any time. >> All right. >> We appreciate the time and wish you the best of luck here the rest of the day, too. >> Great. >> Good deal. >> Thank you. >> Glad to be with us. Dustin Kirkland from Canonical joining us here on theCube. Back with more from AWS Summit 2017 here in New York City right after this.

(electronic music) >> Narrator: Live from Boston, Massachusetts it's The Cube covering OpenStack Summit 2017. Brought to you by the OpenStack Foundation, RedHat and additional ecosystem support. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman joined by my cohost John Troyer. We always want to give the community what they want. and I think from the early returns on day one, we brought back Mark Shuttleworth. So Mark, founder of Canonical, had you on yesterday. A lot of feedback from the communities, so welcome back. >> Thank you, great to be here and looking forward to questions from the community and you. >> Yeah, so let's start with, we love at the show you get some of these users up on stage and they get to talk about what they're doing. We were actually, John and I, were catching up with a friend of ours that talked about how a private cloud, the next revision is going to use OpenStack, so really, OpenStack's been a little under the covers in many ways. The composability of OpenStack now, we're going to see pieces of it show up a lot of places. We've heard a lot about the Telco places, maybe talk about some of the emerging areas, enterprise customers, that you find for Ubuntu and OpenStack specifically? >> Sure. Well it seems as if every industry has a different name for the same phenomenon, right. So, for some it's "digital", for other's it's essentially a transformation of some aspect of what they're doing. The Telcos call it NFV, in media you have OTT as a sort of emerging threat and the response, in every case, is really to empower developers. That's why it's such a fun time to be a software developer, because the established guys realize that if they aren't already competing with Silicon Valley, they're going to be competing with Silicon Valley. So in each industry there's a sort of challenges or labels that they give this process of kind of unleashing developers and it's fun for us, because we get to be part of that in many cases. I think the big drivers under the hood, other than the operational and economic dynamics of cloudification, I think the really big changes are going to be machine learning, which seems to be moving very quickly into every industry. Retailers are using it for predictive analytics on what to put in store or what to recommend online. It just has this huge effect on almost any business when you figure out how to use your data in that way. All of that is developer driven, all of that needs this kind of underlying infrastructure to power it and it's kind of relevant to every industry. For us media is a key prospect, you know that we've done very, very well in Telco. Media is now a sort-of critical focus. Companies like Bloomberg for example us Ubuntu as an elastic platform for agility for the developers. They're a pretty astonishing operation; media company, but very tech-centric, very tech-savvy. I don't know if you've had them on the show. In retail, Ebay, PayPal it's kind of a crossover finance. They're all using Ubuntu in that sort of way. They may now see the major financials who are looking at the intersection of machine learning and transactions systems effectively as the driver for that kind of change. >> Stu: So in our last interview we talked about are companies making money in OpenStack and your answer, resoundingly, was yes. >> Mark: For us, certainly, yeah. >> One of the things we always look at is kind of the open source model itself. I was at DockerCon a few weeks ago, it's like everybody's using Docker. How do they make money? The question I get from a number of people in the community is, everybody I talk to knows Ubuntu, uses Ubuntu, when do they transition to paying for some of the products? >> Well so one of our key tenants is that we want to put no friction in front of developers. So many of the people that you'll meet here or that you'll meet at other developer-centric summits, they're developer-oriented. They're creatives, effectively. So our products, our commercial products aren't really designed to tax developers effectively. What we want is developers to have the latest and greatest platforms, to have that absolutely free, to be able to have confidence in the fact that it can go into production. When applications get into production, a whole different set of people get involved. For example the security guys will say, does this comply with FIPS security? And that's a commercial capability that customers get from Canonical if they wanted so we're now getting a set of security certifications that enable people to take apps on Ubuntu into production inside defense industries or other high security industries. Similarly if you look at the support life cycle, our standard public free support maintenance window is five years, which is a long time, but for certain applications it turns out the app needs to be in production for 10 years and again that's a driver for a different set of people. Not the developers, but for compilers and system administration operation types to engage with Canonical commercially. Sometimes we would walk through the building and the developers love us as everything's free and then the ops guys love us because we will support them for longer than we would support the developers. >> Can we talk about Open Source as a component of business models in general maybe, and how you would like to see the ecosystem growing, and even Canonical's business model. In the course of the last decade in the industry itself, right, a lot of people sniping at each other; "Well, you know open core is the way to go, open source is not a business model" there's a lot of yelling. You've been around, you know what works. How do you a set of healthy companies that use open source develop in our ecosystem? >> So this is a really, really interesting topic and I'll start at the high end. If you think of the Googles, and the Facebooks, and the Amazons, and the Microsofts, and the Oracles, I think for them open source is now a weapon. It's a way to commoditize something that somebody else attaches value to and in the game of love and war, or Go, or chess, or however you want to think of it, between those giants open source very much has become a kind of root to market in order to establish standards for the next wave. Right now in machine learning for example we see all of these major guys pushing stuff out as open source. People wouldn't really ask "what's the business model" there 'cause they understand that this is these huge organizations essentially trying to establish standards for the next wave through open source. Okay, so that's one approach. On the startup side it's a lot more challenging and there I think we need to do two things. So right now I would say, if you're a single app startup it's very difficult with open source. If you've got a brilliant idea for a database, if you've got a brilliant idea for a messaging system, it's very, very difficult to do that with open source and I think you've seen the consequences of that over the years. That's actually not a great result for us in open source. At the end of the day, what drives brilliant folks to invest 20 hours a day for three years of their life to create something new, part of it is the sense they'll get a return on that and so, actually, we want that innovation. Not just from the Googles, and the Oracles, and the Microsofts, but we want innovation from real startups in open source. So one of the things I'd like to see is that I'd like to see the open source community being more generous of spirit to the startups who are doing that. That's not Canonical, particularly, but it is the Dockers of the world, it is the RethinkDBs, as a recent example. Those are great guys who had really good ideas and we should caution open source folks when they basically piss on the parade of the startup. It's a very short-sighted approach. The other thing that I do need to do is we need to figure out the monetization strategy. Selling software the old way is really terrible. There's a lot of friction associated with it. So one of the things that I'm passionate about is hacking Ubuntu to enable startups to innovate as open source if they want to, but then deliver their software to the enterprise market. Everywhere where you can find Ubuntu, and you know now that's everywhere right? Every Global 2000 company is running Ubuntu. Whether we can call them a customer or not is another question. But how can we enable all those innovators and startups to deliver their stuff to all of those companies and make money doing it? That's really good for those companies, and it's really good for the startups, and that's something I'm very passionate about. >> We've seen such a big transformation. I mean, the era of the shrink wrapped software is gone. An era that I want to get your long term perspective on is, when it comes to internet security. Back to your first company, we had Edward Snowden and the keynote this morning talking about security, and he bashed the public cloud guys and said "We need private cloud, and you need to control a lot more there" any comments on his stuff, the public/private era and internet security in general today? Are we safer today than we were back in '99? >> We certainly are safer in part because of Edward Snowden. Awareness is the only way to start the process of getting stuff better. I don't think it's simplistically that you can bash the public clouds. For example Google does incredible work around security and there's a huge amount of stuff in the Linux stack today around security specifically that we have Google to thank for. Amazon and others are also starting to invest in those areas. So I think the really interesting question is, how do we make security easy in the field and still make it meaningful? That's something we can have a big impact on because security when you touch it it can often feel like friction. So for example we use AppArmor. Now AppArmor is a more modern of the SC Linux ideas that is just super easy to use which means people don't even know that they're using it. Every copy of Ubuntu out there is actually effectively as secure as if you've turned on SC Linux, but administrators don't ever have to worry about that because the way AppArmor works is designed to be really, really easy to just integrate and that allows each piece of the ecosystem, the upstreams, the developers, the end users to essentially upgrade their security without really have to think about that as a budget item or a work ticket item, or something that's friction. >> Mark, any conversations on the show surprise you? Excite you? There's always such a great collection of some really smart and engaged people at this show. I'm curious what your experience has been so far. >> Sure. I think it's interesting. Open Stack moved so quickly from idea to superstar. I guess it's like a child prodigy, you know, a child TV star. The late teens can be a little rocky, right? (Mark laughs) I think it will emerge from all of that as quite a thoughtful community. There were a ton of people who came to these shows who were just stuffed, effectively, there by corporates who just wanted to do something in cloud. Now I think the conversation is much more measured. You've got folks here who really want these pieces to fit together and be useful. Our particular focus is the consumption of OpenStack in a way that is really economically impactful for enterprises. But the people who I see continuing to make meaningful contributions here are people who really want something to work. Whether that's networking, or storage, or compute, or operations as in our case but they're the folks who care about that infrastructure really working rather than the flash in the pan types and I think that's a good transition for the community to be making. >> Can you say a little more about the future of OpenStack and the direction you see the community going. I don't know. If you had a magic wand and you look forward a couple of years. We talked a lot about operability and maintainability, upgradeability, ease of use. That seems to be one of the places that you're trying to drive the ecosystem. >> One of the things that I think the community is starting to realize is that if you try to please everybody, you'll end up with something nobody can really relate to. I think if you take the mission of OpenStack as to say, look, open source is going to do lots of complicated things but if we can essentially just deliver virtualized infrastructure in a super automated way so that nobody has to think about it, the virtual machines, virtual disks, virtual networks on demand. That's an awesome contribution to the innovation stack. There are a ton of other super shiny things that could happen on any given culture and ODS but if we just get that piece right, we've made a huge contribution and I think for a while OpenStack was trying to do everything for everybody. Lots of reasons why that might be the case but now I think there's a stronger sense of "This is the mission" and it will deliver on that mission, I have great confidence. It was contrarian then to say we shouldn't be doing everything, it's contrarian now to say "actually, we're fine". We're learning what we need to be. >> The ebb and flows of this community have been really interesting. NASA helped start it. NASA went to Amazon, NASA went back to OpenStack. >> Think about the economics of cars, right. It's kind of incredible that I can sit outside the building and pull up the app, and I have a car. It's also quite nice to own a car. People do both. The economics of ownership and the economics of renting, they're pretty well understood and most institutions or most people can figure out that sometimes they'll do a bit of either. What we have to do is, at the moment we have a situation where if you want to own your infrastructure the operations are unpredictable. Whereas if you rent it it's super predictable. If we can just put predictability of price and performance into OpenStack, which is, for example what the manage services, what BootStack does. Also what JUJU and MAAS do. They allow you to say, I can do that. I can do that quickly, and I don't have to go and open a textbook to do that or hire 50 people to do it. That essentially allows people now to make the choice between owning and renting in a very natural way, and I think once people understand that that's what this is all about it'll give them a sense of confidence again. >> Curious your viewpoint on the future of jobs in tech. We talked a little bit before about autonomous vehicles. It has the opportunity to be a great boon from a technology standpoint but could hollow out this massive amount of jobs globally. Is technology an enabler of some of these things? Do we race with the machines? We interviewed Erik Brynjolfsson and Andy McAfee from the MIT Sloan School. Did you personally have some thoughts on that? In places where Canonical looks about our future workforce, do we end up with "coding becomes the new blue collar job"? >> I don't know if I can speak to a single career but I think the simple fact is there's nothing magical about the brain. The brain is a mesh network competing flows and it makes decisions, and I think we will simulate that pretty soon and we'll suddenly realize there's nothing magical about the brain but there is something magical about humans and so, what is a job? A job is kind of how we figure out what we want to do most of the day and how we want to define ourselves in some sense. That's never going to go away. I think it's highly likely that humans are obsolete as decision makers and surprisingly soon. Simply because there's nothing magic about the brain and we'll build bigger and better brains for any kind of decision you can imagine. But the art of being human? That's kind of magical, and humans will find a way to evolve into that time. I'm not too worried about it. >> Okay. Last thing I want to ask is, what's exciting you these days? We've talked about space exploration a few times. Happy to comment on it. I mean, the last 12 months has been amazing to watch for those of us. I grew up studying engineering. You always look up to the stars. What's exciting you these days? >> Well the commercialization of space, the commercial access to space is just fantastic to see, sure, really dawning and credit to the Bezoses and the Musks who are kind of shaking up the status quo in those industries. We will be amongst the stars. I have no doubt about it. It will be part of the human experience. For me personally, I expect I'll go back to space and do something interesting there. It'll get easier and easier and so I can pack my walking stick and go to the moon, maybe. But right now from a love of technology and business point of view, IoT is such rich pickings. You can't swing a cat but find something that can be improved in a very physical way. It's great to see that intersection of entrepreneurship and tinkering suddenly come alive again. You don't have to be a giant institution to go and compete with the giant institutions that are driving the giant clouds. You just have to be able to spot a business opportunity in real life around you and how the right piece of software in the right place with the right data can suddenly make things better and so it's just delicious the sort of things people are doing. Ubuntu again is a great platform for innovating around that. It's just great fun for me to see really smart people who three years ago would say, do I really want to go work at a giant organization in Silicon Valley? Or can I have fun with something for a while that's really mine and whether that's worth 12 bucks or 12 billion who knows? But it just feels fun and I'm enjoying that very much, seeing people find interesting things to do at the edge. >> Mark Shuttleworth, appreciate being able to dig into a lot more topics with you today and we'll be right back with lots more coverage here from OpenStack 2017 in Boston. You're watching the cube. (electronic music)

(upbeat music) >> Narrator: Live from Boston, Massachusetts it's The CUBE covering OpenStack Summit 2017, brought to you by the OpenStack Foundation, Red Hat, an additional ecosystem of support. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman with my co-host John Troyer. Happy to welcome back to the program. It's been a couple of years but Mark Baker, who is the Ubuntu Product Manager for OpenStack at Canonical. Thanks so much for joining us. >> Oh, you're welcome, it's a pleasure to be back on. >> All right so you said you've been coming to these shows for over six years now. You sit on the OpenStack Foundation. We've been talking this week. There's all that fuzz and misinformation and God what does (faint) say this morning? It's like fear is one of the most powerful weapons out there. Sometimes there's just misinformation out there but for you, OpenStack today where you see it in general and in your role with Canonical? >> Sure so OpenStack is one of the cornerstones of our business. It's certainly a big revenue generator for us. We continue to grow customers in that space, and that mirrors what we see in the OpenStack community. So all of the numbers you'll have seen in the OpenStack survey showed that adoption continues to grow. Sure, there is, I don't know if I want to call it fake news out there but there's definitely a meme is going that okay, OpenStack is perhaps declining in popularity. That's not what we see in adoption. We see adoption continuing to grow, more customers coming onto the platform, more revenue is coming from those customers. >> Yeah Mark any data you can share? We did have we had Heidi Joy on from the foundation to talk about the survey. I mean big you know adoption over 74% of deployments are outside of the US. We talked to Mark and Jonathan this morning. They said well that's where more than 74% of the population of the world lives outside of the US on any trends or data points specifically about a bunch of customers. >> Sure so we we definitely have big customers outside the US. You look at perhaps one of our best well-known is Deutsche Telekom, obviously a global telco that's situated in Europe that's deploying OpenStack. Really at the core of their network and I was going into multiple countries, and we see not only more customers but also those existing customers growing their estate and we've got other engagements as well in the Nordics with Tele2, another telco that has a larger stake too. And increasingly out in Asia too. So we definitely see this as being a global trend towards adoption. >> All right and Mark, there was you know for years, it was okay. How many distributions are there out there? How many do we need on out there? Why do customers turn to Ubuntu when they want OpenStack? >> So the challenge of operating infrastructure is scale. It's not can I deploy it? It's not so much even you know how performant is it? It's really kind of boils down to economics, and a large part of that economics is how are you able to operate that cloud efficiently? We've proven time and time again that a lot of the work that we've put in since the very beginning around tooling, around operations is what allows people to stand up these clouds, operate them at scale, upgrade them, apply patches, do all of those things but operate them efficiently at scale without having to scale the number of staff they require to operate that cloud, yeah. >> I think back to the staff that's been around for at least 15 years is company spent 70 or 80% or even more of their budget on keeping the lights on, running around the data center doing that. Anything you could tell us about OpenStack and how that shifts those economics for the data center? >> Sure, so OpenStack has gone through a typical sort of evolution that many technologies go through and we liken it to Linux obviously, we're a Linux company. In the beginning with Linux many people would build their own distributions, they'd compile their own kernels, they'd make modifications. A lot of the big lighthouse users of OpenStack went through that process. We are seeing the adoption changing now. So people are coming to companies like us with an OpenStack distribution that's off-the-shelf, ready and packaged with reference architectures, proven methodologies for implementing this successfully, and consuming it much more like that. Without that package, this free software can actually be very expensive to operate. So you have to get getting those economics right comes from having those packages for people to be able to deploy, manage it and scale it efficiently on-site. >> So you've been involved with OpenStack throughout the whole evolution. Is there anything you see now and 2017 at this summit? This is my first summit. I'm very impressed as an outsider. Again, we started off talking about what you hear from the outside, talking to people here at the show, people standing up their very first clouds this year, very bullish very kind of conscious of okay this is a, this is not a winner-take-all world. There's a place for OpenStack. >> Mark: Yeap. That's actually very kind of clear and very well fit. Do you see a difference in the customers that are you're working with now in 2017, their maturity level, their expectations than perhaps you did a few years ago? >> So yes certainly, customers have complex and diverse requirements, and so they want to deliver different styles of applications in different ways, and OpenStack is a great way of delivering machines, whether it's virtual machines or container machines to applications and provides a very robust and agile environment for doing that. But other styles of application may require to run natively on Bare Metal. OpenStack can do some of that, and do a lot of that but we're seeing, certainly seeing customers understanding okay, OpenStack has a role, public cloud has a role, container technologies have a role. A lot of these intersect together. Then it's really our objective is to help them whether they're choosing container platforms and OpenStack, whether they're using public cloud to ensure that they're able to manage this in an efficient way to deliver value to their business. >> You talked about operability and we talked with Mark Shuttleworth. He was also, we were marking that Ubuntu, the operating system is by far the majority choice in OpenStack and in a lot of cloud projects. Can you talk a little bit more about operability? Again the traditional dig from outside the project a few years ago science project, hard to use, need to have computer scientists to even get it running, which as a former Linux person myself, I think I find that a little bit insulting. It's rocket science but it's not that, it's not that complicated. >> (faint) Were involved in the beginning. >> That is true. But can you just talk a little bit about operability in terms of getting what you're seeing, in terms of either private cloud or at people standing up, the operations team needed, the maintainability day to day operation, that sort of thing in a modern OpenStack environment? >> Yeah, so OpenStack is becoming, certainly a lot of the enterprise customers that we're working with now is becoming another platform that will sit alongside the VMware. There may be some intersection of that. Our goal is to have common operations. So if I want to deploy applications into containers, I could do that in to Kubernetes or just running on VMware, I could do that on OpenStack, I could do it in public cloud to have common tooling and common operations across as much of the estate as we can because that's where I'll get efficiencies. It's where I'll get smart economics and smart operations. So well definitely, people are looking for those solutions. They know they're going to have diverse environments. They're looking for commonality that runs across those diverse environments and Ubuntu provides a great deal of commonality across. >> Mark, can you speak to Canonical's involvement in some of the projects? I know you have a lot of contributors but where particularly did your company spend the most focus? >> So, OpenStack, the initial challenge with OpenStack was to deliver capability and functionality. Canonical was one of those contributors in the early days. It was helping drive new features, helping drive new capabilities in OpenStack. More or less, we've switched to addressing that operations problem. There are many clouds out there that's stuck on older versions. For OpenStack to succeed as it moves forward, we need to be able to show you can upgrade gracefully without service interruption. We're demonstrating that with customers. So a lot of the work that we've been doing is how we streamline these operations, how we crowdsource, if you like, best practice for operating these clouds of scale to deliver efficient value to the business. >> Oh, another interesting conversation here at the show has been about containers. >> Yeah. >> Both Kubernetes and I know Canonical been involved with with Alex D. So can you talk a little bit about the interrelation of containers with OpenStack and how you're seeing that play out? >> Yes, absolutely so containers is all over OpenStack. We do smile somewhat when people talk about containers being a new thing with OpenStack as we've been deploying OpenStack inside LXD containers for several years now. So many of our customers are running containerized OpenStack today in production but this there's certainly this great intersection of that running Kubernetes on top of OpenStack. For example, we're seeing a lot of interest in that. We deploy, as they say, our OpenStack services in containers to give flexibility around architectural choices. We're very happy to run Canonical's distribution of kubernetes inside of OpenStack, which we do, and say have customers doing that. So there are also people looking at how you can containerize control plane in other ways. We're certainly keeping tabs on that, and you know exploring that with some customers but containers are all across the OpenStack ecosystem. They're not competitive. They're very much sort of building a higher level of value for customers so they have choice in how they deploy their applications. >> All right, Mark anything new this week surprised you or any interesting conversations that you'd want to share? >> So I came into this knowing that there was going to be a lot of discussion around containerized applications in OpenStack and containers perhaps, and the control plane. The thing that has surprised me actually has been the speed with which people are looking at OpenStack for edge cloud. Cloud on the edge, it's kind of a telco thing but cloud on the edge is how I can deliver capabilities and services, infrastructure services in an environment, in a mobile environment, it could be attached to a cell phone mask for example. It's not a traditional big data center but you need to deliver content and data out to mobile devices. So there's a lot of discussion especially today, within the telco community here at OpenStack Summit about how OpenStack can deliver those kinds of capabilities on the edge. That's been interesting and a surprise for me to see how quickly it's come up. >> All right Mark, want to give you the final word as to what you want people taking way of Ubuntu's participation in OpenStack. >> Well, some of this talk about OpenStack you know is it had its day in the sun, there are other things now taking over. You need to I think people out there will need to understand that OpenStack is deeply embedded inside big companies like AT&T, and like Deutsche Telekom. It's going to be there for a decade or more, right. So OpenStack is definitely here to stay. We continue to see our business growing. The number of customers Canonical is working with deploying OpenStack continues to grow. Ubuntu as a platform for OpenStack continues to grow. So it's definitely going to be part of the infrastructure as we roll forward. Yes, you'll see it working more in conjunction with those container technologies and application platforms. Parsers for example but it's here. It's just no longer quite the bright new shiny thing it used to be. It's kind of getting to be part of regular infrastructure. >> All right, well Mark not everything could be as bright and shiny as the Ubuntu orange shirt. So thank you so much for joining us again. We'll be back with more coverage here. From Boston, Massachusetts, you're watching The CUBE. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: Live from Austin, Texas. It's theCUBE, covering DockerCon 2017. Brought to you by Docker, and support from its ecosystem partners. (bright electronic music) >> Welcome back. I'm Stu Miniman, joined by Jim Kobielus for two days of theCUBE's live coverage, DockerCon 2017, here in Austin, Texas. We are the worldwide leader in live enterprise tech coverage, happy to welcome to the program, a first-time guest on theCUBE, happens to also be a local here in the Austin area, so Dustin Kirkland, the Ubuntu Product and Strategy, with Canonical, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thanks, Stu. >> All right, so Dustin, give us a good thumbnail, what's your role, and how excited are you to be at another local show. All the open source shows seem to be here in Austin. I mean, we love doing it. >> I'm super glad. >> Dustin: We love sharing Austin. Glad for people to come and visit. Just make sure you go home at the end of it. (chuckles) >> Jim: Keep Austin weird and keep it open. >> That's right, that's right. Yeah, it's great to be local, it's great to have the Docker community back in Austin. It was, a lot of these people were here for OpenStack. We'll be back for CubeCon later this year. OSCON in between. >> All right, and tell us a little bit about your role. >> Yes, so I lead Product and Strategy at Ubuntu. We make an operating system that runs in the cloud, on public clouds, private clouds, bare-metal, physical servers, down to desktops and embedded devices. >> Okay, so, I have a serious question for you. Every time we see the surveys of OpenStack, the surveys in the public cloud, Canonical's always there. I mean, everybody's using your stuff. >> Dustin: Good! >> But where are people paying money for it? What's kind of from the business standpoint, maybe you can give us the quick update on that. >> People pay money when it's mission-critical. When Ubuntu and OpenStack and soon, Kubernetes, certainly more and more, Docker, when that's part of the mission-critical infrastructure, they pay for that. They pay the support and the services, they pay for consulting, for design, for leads, for architecture. They pay for access to the product roadmap, and so we do have some really brand-name customers who pay us good money for that. >> Okay, it's our third year doing theCUBE at this show, and every year, it seems we come in with one of the same questions, which is like, all right, is this ready for production, is anybody using it? We backed you to knock down the doors of everybody here, and give us more customers to talk to, so, what do you see, what's your answer to that? >> Yeah, I mean, it strikes me as really odd when people are still asking, "Are containers ready "for production?" Containers have been part of our DNA in Ubuntu for almost 10 years now. Shipping an OS that boots into a container that's able to run LXD containers, Docker containers, and run those at tremendous scale. We'd run containers underneath as the control plane of every OpenStack cloud we've ever deployed, every Kubernetes cloud we've ever deployed, every Hadoop cloud we've ever deployed. So containers are part of our production system. >> So do you guys have a marketing term? You guys are the hipster Linux container company. You were doing it before it was cool. >> I guess so, I mean it's, I guess, it's like asking, and I wonder, you think cellphones are mainstream yet? It's like, yeah, it is now, but you're probably one of the first in your family to have a cellphone, right? It's, we're kind of at that juncture, where we've been doing for a long time, and it's good to see others finally taking advantage as well. >> In the keynote this morning, we talked, we saw a lot about the maturation of Docker. They really started out working with the developer, they've really grown, working with the business, working with the enterprise. Talk to us about your customers as it fits into the container space in general, Docker, specifically. What are you guys seeing? >> As an operating system that delivers the latest and greatest open source software across multiple architectures, public and private clouds, Docker fits into that very well, in fact. It sits alongside LXD at giving that machine container, replace your VM's experience, but also the new way of writing applications. Solomon talked about applications, and if you're going to develop an application, Docker is a great application development platform. So when applications are being developed, (mumbles) or microservices, from scratch, Docker is a fantastic approach, and we see more developers using Ubuntu desktops and Ubuntu in the cloud, as that development platform. As that matures, then we get into a situation where it becomes mission-critical, and then we have really interesting commercial discussions around how do we really help that platform succeed? >> All right, we just Microsoft on the program. >> Dustin: John, right? >> Yeah, John was on, talks about, (mumbles) Microsoft is talking about being open, Microsoft's talking about choice. They actually talked, John mentioned, your company and your operating system. When we get to cloud solutions, Canonical's supported everywhere. How do you guys differentiate? How do you make sure that they're choosing your product as opposed to something else? >> So Ubuntu itself, always latest and greatest. It's fresh, you're never more than six months away from the next latest and greatest everything across the board. You're never more than two years away from an LTS, a long-term support release. That's really the key differentiator for Ubuntu is its freshment, its velocity, and that maps very well to the container world, where things are revving very, very quickly. >> All right, security was a big focus this morning also. What's your viewpoint as to where security lives, how that works with all of your environment, and what you guys do for that-- >> I've been a security nerd for most of my career. In fact, it's one of those jobs you leave but you always kind of get sucked back into because you care about it, honestly. Ubuntu as a platform, security, we take very seriously. Encryption anywhere, we can use encryption, updates, latest and greatest updates, kernel patches, Livepatch for the kernel. (coughs) Livepatch for the kernel is particularly interesting from a security perspective because it enables us to address security vulnerabilities without rebooting systems, and that's really important in a containerized environment, where you're not just running one or two machines, you're running potentially thousands of machines or containers or applications, and being able to update one single kernel with a Livepatch, without rebooting any of them, that's what security people are excited about when we talk Ubuntu kernel and security. >> (mumbles) Ubuntu being deployed into Internet of things, or to what extent is your roadmap going in that direction 'cause we're seeing a lot of new development going into the Internet of things, to deploy artificial intelligence and deep learning algorithms and data, down to the edge, and so-- >> Yeah, it's beautiful, I mean, that edge-to-cloud story is something that we've got a very clear view on. We produce an OS, an Ubuntu OS called Ubuntu Core, is a read-only operating system custom-tailored for IoT devices. That's the OS, it's the same Ubuntu but rolled and managed and updated in a different way. Applications fit onto that device in the form of snaps, or Docker containers, frankly. They're a little bit different in the way that they're implemented, but we have a new packaging system that's well-adapted, well-tuned-- >> A snap is more, something different from a container, how? >> It is, it's a form of a container. It's less than a container, but it uses some of the same container primitives. It's, frankly, it's an archive and a set of security profiles that wrap that tarball, essentially, and the way it's executed in a very secure manner, so it's wrapped with AppArmor profiles, it only has access to certain parts of the system, it contains its own dependencies, but they're contained in such a way that they're protected from the rest of the system. A lot of that sounds like Docker, and it is similar to Docker, but Docker provides a little bit more of that machine experience. Docker will include a file system, it'll draw an IP address sometimes, or defroute traffic, whereas a snap actually runs directly on the underlying OS. It's more tightly linked to that OS. In terms of linking back to the machine learning, that happens in the cloud. Inevitably, IoT drives more cloud adoption because those little IoT devices, they've got so little processing power and storage by design, that information needs to go somewhere, and it goes to the cloud, where something like a TensorFlow, running in a Docker Swarm, or a Kubernetes, or some combination of those two, are really crunching the interesting problems. >> First, Google recently made a big to-do about federating more of the machine learning algorithms all the way to the edge device, so, the world is going in that direction but I hear you. That's, they're very constrained-- >> Dustin: We hear a lot about the edge. >> To run the algorithms that pull power on the edge device, but it's coming. >> Yeah, for sure. >> Great. >> Stu: All right, so Dustin, I heard Kubernetes and Swarm, you guys, agnostic to that, support all of it. >> Dustin: We are. >> What do you guys code on, what do you hear from customers? >> Yeah, so we're very proud of our position here. I'm here at DockerCon, supporting Docker. Docker Inc. is a close commercial partner of Canonical. We, Canonical is authorized to resell Docker Enterprise Edition, Docker services, Docker support. We've got mutual customers who buy that directly from Canonical, and we support Docker and Swarm and Datacenter on top of Ubuntu, and that's a great story that brings us from the developers who are running Docker on Ubuntu on their Macs and Windows machines. John, I'm sure, was talking about Windows and Docker. But when they put that into production, we've got the wherewithal to support that. We offer Kubernetes as another platform. I've spoken with some really bright, just last night, with a really bright cloud architect from a major Internet service provider, and their role is they set up Docker Swarms for their internal customers, and Kubernetes Clusters for their internal customers, and Cloud Foundries, and OpenStacks, all inside of this big telco Internet cable giant, and it makes sense, and they can do all of that, and do all of that on top of Ubuntu, because it's the platform that can offer whatever they need for their customers. >> All right, one of the other announcements in the keynote this morning was LinuxKit, so, I got a little bit of a preview before the show, and I don't feel that it was Docker trying to punch at the providers of Linux, and it didn't seem to come off that way in the keynote, but for those that hear at a glance, oh, wait, LinuxKit developed with a bunch of, you know, seems like mostly hardware companies plus Microsoft and Docker. What do you guys see, how do you look at that? >> It's genuinely fun for an open source engineer to put together a Linux distribution. It's like the thing you want to do, and customize it and tailor it, and the beauty of open source is you can absolutely do that, and so, what I saw from LinuxKit, I too got a little preview, it seems it comes out of the part of Docker that also works on unikernels, Alpine, to an extent, and they've built a container-optimized, or Docker-optimized OS from Docker, so if you want Docker all the way down, it sounds like LinuxKit is a solution that they're working on, still working on. I'll say that Ubuntu, containers are in our DNA, we built a kernel and we built a security system around containers for quite some time, and we continue to optimize that, and we work directly with Microsoft, Google, Amazon to ensure that the Ubuntu that's running in those public clouds is ready to run Docker and other container systems out of the box, and very consistently, in a way that looks exactly like the Ubuntu that's running as the bash shell on the Windows desktop, as the Ubuntu desktop itself, as the server that you might run in any one of the public clouds. It's a very consistent experience. We do tune that and tailor that, but it's in ways that ensures portability. >> All right, so Dustin, you talked about kind of the history and how long people have been using it. Production should not be a question. It's just where, what, how you're doing this. What things do you still see us needing to mature, or what excites you about this going forward? >> Yeah. The management, honestly, and that comes back to security. Ensuring that running those containers at scale, you're doing that in a secure manner. Minimal is part of it. We hear that quite a bit, that, "I want a minimal image, I want a minimal host." That is an important part of it. It's, we have to be a little bit careful that we don't go so minimal that we end up creating a bunch of snowflakes, special unicorns where every container image is a little bit different, every host is a little bit different, because it's more minimal than the previous one. That actually creates more security problems, so I think thinking that problem through is, it's one of the most important problems that I think through, or I'm working on right now, and I think others are interested in working on as well. >> All right, Dustin, you've been way too pleasant through all of this interview, so before we end up, as an Austin local here, I have to ask you the divisive question. Your favorite barbecue place. (Dustin groans) >> You know-- >> Jim: Your favorite bar band, too. Keep going. >> Okay, yeah, I mean, you can't go wrong with the award-wining Franklin's barbecue or the gas station Rudy's, we love those. My favorite's a little hole in the wall out close to where I live. It's a trailer that's been serving barbecue out of that trailer since 1997. It's called Bee Caves barbecue. Those guys, they put together some fantastic barbecue five days a week. They sell it until they're out, and then they close up the shop and they go fishing, and it's, you got to get there early, and when they're done, they're done, so I-- >> Yeah, is there a connection between people that make barbecue and people that put together Linux distributions? It sounds like a lot of the same thing. >> Maybe so, maybe so, yeah. I've got a smoker out back. I like to smoke meat as much as I can. >> Absolutely, all right, well, Dustin, really appreciate you joining us. Welcome to the >> Stu, thank you, Jim. >> Stu: CUBE alumni list now, and we'll be back with more coverage here from DockerCon 2017. You're watching theCUBE. (bright electronic music) >> I remember--

>> From around the globe its theCUBE with digital coverage of Red Hat Summit 2020, brought to you by Red Hat. >> Hi I'm Stu Miniman and this is theCUBE's coverage of a Red Hat Summit 2020. Of course this year the event is virtual. We're bringing all the people on theCUBE from where they are and really happy to bring back to the program, one of our CUBE alumni, Paul Cormier, who is the president and CEO of Red Hat. Of course the keynote and you and I spoke ahead of the show. Paul great to see you and thanks so much for joining us. >> My pleasure, always great to see you Stu. My pleasure. >> All right, so Paul lots have changed since last time we got together for summit. One things stayed the same though. So, you know, the big theme, I heard in your keynote, you talked about open hybrid cloud of course. We've been talking about cloud for years when you ran the product theme, you know, making Red Hat go everywhere is something that we've watched, you know, that move. Is anything different when you're talking to customers, when you're talking to your, the product themes, you think about the times were in, why is open hybrid cloud not a buzzword but hugely important in the times were facing? >> Because the big premise to open hybrid cloud is that customers, cloud has become part of people's infrastructure. I've seen very few if any true enterprise customers that are moving everything, every app to one cloud. And so I think what people really realized once they started implementing clouds, part of their infrastructure was that you going to always have applications that are running bare metal. Some are virtual machine maybe on top of VMware it might been a private cloud, and not many people saying you know what the public clouds are all so different from each other I might want to run one application for whatever reason in one in a different one or another I think they started to realize the actual operational cost to that, the security cost of that and even more mobility the development cost of that from the application perspective and now having five silos up there now how that's so costly so now our whole premise since the beginning of open hybrid cloud has been to give you that level playing field to have those things all the same no matter where the application wants whether experimental virtual machine private multiple public cloud and so in the long run as customers start to start to really go to cloud first application development and they can still manage that under one platform in a common way but at the same time managed develop secure it but at the same time they can manage develop and secure their legacy applications that are also on linux as well in the same way so I think in the long run it really brings it together and saves money and efficiency in those areas. >> Yeah it's I always loved I look over time we have certain words that we think we know what they mean and then they mature over time let's just say we'll start with the first piece of what you're talking about open we live through those of us that have been through that the really ascendancy of open-source is in the early days open was free and we joke it was free like puppies >> Yeah. but today open source of course is very prevalent we see it all over the place but give from an open hybrid cloud why open is important today and what customers should think, how do customers think about that today? >> There's probably two most misunderstood things with open so first thing is that open source is a development model, first of all. I always say it's a verb not a noun, I even say well think internally and externally. We're not an open source company, we're an enterprise software company with an open source development model. So you think about that, that's what that's really important. Why is the open source development model so important? It's important because everyone has the same opportunity in terms of the features of within the code everyone has the same opportunity to contribute. The best technology wins that's how it works in the upstream community is it's not a technology driven by one company that may have a one company agenda. It's really a development process that allows the best technology to win and I think that's one of the main things and one of the main reasons why you see all the innovation frankly in the last five years around infrastructure and development, associated pieces and tools around that of being in and around Linux because Linux was available, it was powerful, it was open when people wanted to develop for when people wanted to develop kubernetes for example, they had to make changes to the Linux kernel in order to do that it did work because they could and so those are the things that make it really important as a development model and I think those are the things that get confused a lot. I think the other things that get confuses a lot of people think that, "hey if I have this great technology and I just open-source is that it'll all just work, everyone will come, now that's not the case. The things that really, the projects that really succeed of an open-source perspective are the problems that are common and horizontal across a big group of people so they're trying to solve similar problems and that's one of the things that we found as you go further up the stack the length typically the less community is involved it's the horizontal layers where you need whether you're in banking or retail or telco or whatever they're all the same, those are the pieces where open-source really fits well. >> Alright so the second piece you talk about hybrid I think back to the early days Paul when cloud was first defined and we talked about public and private cloud we had discussions of hybrid cloud and multi clouds and the concern that I have is it was very much an infrastructure discussion and it was pieces and the vision that we always have is, were customers to actually get value is, the total solution needs to be more valuable than the sum of its parts. So it's really about hybrid applications about where my data lives, so do you agree with some of those things I'm saying how does Red Hat look at it and from your team i do get lots of the application and app dev discussion which I always find even more meaningful than arguing over ontologies of how you build your cloud. >> Everything you said is all about the application if you look at just where we started with linux just along what did Linux bring to the enterprise when we first started rally me you and I talked about this earlier that was the thing that really opened things up. The enterprise's started buying Linux they right they started buying Linux for Linux for $29.95 at the book stores but when I first came on board we talked to some of the banking customers in there, they said well we love this technology but every time you guys change a release on my applications breaker when I get new hardware it doesn't work etc. So it's all about the application Linux is better about that all the time from the beginning of time what hybrid it really means here, is that I can run that seamlessly across wherever that footprint is going to live and so I think that's also one of the things that gets confused a bit. When the cloud first started, the cloud vendors were telling people that every application was going to move to one cloud tomorrow right? We knew that was not practical, that's the other thing from open-source developers, we look at a practical perspective, we look back in 2007 I just looked at just to prepare for the note I just put up to the company. Back in 2007 at the summit I talked about any application anywhere anytime. That's really the essence of what hybrid is here, so what we found here is what every application is impractical for every application to move to one cloud and so cloud is powerful but it's become part of people's development and operations and security environment so now as we stitch that in may make that common for those three things for the operation security in development more application development world that's where the power is. So I see the day where application developers and application users won't know or care what platform the back-end day is coming from for whatever applications they're writing, they shouldn't care that should just happen seamlessly under the covers but having said that, that complicates thing and that's why management needs to be retooled with it as well. Sorry on that but I could talk about that for three days right? >> Yeah so as an industry we kind of argue about these and everybody feels that they understand the way the future should look. So Paul for a number of years it was, "we're going to build this stack "and let's have the exact same stack here and there." There were some of the big iron companies that did that a few years ago now you see some of your public cloud partners saying, "we can give you that same experience "that same hardware all the way "down to the chip level things are going to be the same." When I look at software companies, there's two that come to mind to live across dispersed environments. One is very much from a virtualization standpoint they design themselves to live on any hardware out there. Red Hat has a slightly different way of looking at things, so what's your take on kind of the stack and why is hybrid in that hybrid cloud model that you're building probably looks and sounds and feels different then I think almost anybody else out there? >> Well the cloud guys, they all have similar technologies underneath I mean most of it not all of its based on Linux but they're all different I mean remember the UNIX days I'm old enough to remember the UNIX day. That was the goal back then but like each hardware vendor did each cloud vendor is now taking that Linux or the Associated pieces with it and they have to make their changes to adapt to their environment and some of those changes don't allow for applications to be portable outside that environment, that's exactly like the OEM world of the past and so I hope some people hate it when I say this to make this a comparison but I really look at the cloud guys as a mainframe and certainly mainframe as and still does bring a ton of value to certain customer base and so if you're going to keep your application in that one place, a mainframe will all on you mainframe mentality will always stitch it to bet together better but that's not the reality of what customers are trying to do out there. So I really think you have to look at it that way it's not that much different in concept anyways to the OEM days whether from when they started running Linux and the thing that Red Hat's done that some of the others haven't for VMware for example, VMware they have no pieces that touch the application I mean they have some now they had photon, they had some of the other pieces that sort of tried to touch the application but at the end of the day we always concentrated in Linux and especially from a Red Hat perspective of keeping the environment the same, both from an application perspective and from a hardware perspective. Certainly when an application runs in the cloud, we don't have to worry about the hardware anymore but we still have to worry about the application and businesses are all about the application and so we always took that tack from both sides of that. I think that's one of VMware's weaknesses frankly is that applications don't run on hypervisors, they run on operating systems including when I say operating systems I mean containers because that is a Linux operating system. >> Yeah Paul a lot of good points you brought up there and it's interesting the mainframe analogy in the early days of cloud there were some that would throw stones and saying right you're rebuilding the mainframe and you're going to be locked in, this is going to be an environment so I'd love to get your thought you think about what's happening in application development, the rise of is you talked about containers and kubernetes serverless is out there there's that, "we want to enable the application developers but we don't want to get locked into some platform there. Talk about red-hat's role how your products are helping the ship, help customers make sure that they can take advantage of some of these new ways of building, maintaining and changing without being stuck on any specific platform or technology >> Well the first place, I believe I'm sure I will be corrected on this but we really are the only company that I can think of at this moment that is a hundred percent open source. Everything we do when our products go is open source based goes back upstream to the community for everyone to take advantage of so that's the first thing. I mean the second thing we do is one of the big fallacies is, open source has become so popular that people are confusing upstream projects with downstream products and so for us I'll use us as an example, I'll use Linux and I'll use kubernetes as an example, the Linux kernel we all built from the Linux kernel us, Susa, Ubuntu we all build from the Linux kernel but at the end of the day we all make choices when we bring that upstream work down to become a product. In our case we go upstream to rel, we go from fedora to sent us to rel. We all make choices, which file systems were going to package, what development environment we're going to to package, what packages werre gonna package and so when we get down to what's get deployed in the enterprise, those choices in what makes the difference of why by rel is slightly different than SUSE Linux which is slightly different than Canonical's upon - but they're all come from the same heritage, the same as the case with kubernetes is this sort of fallacy that kubernetes is the last time I checked it was 127 different kubernetes vendors out there. They're all just going to magically work together yes they all come from the same place but we have to touch the users face, we have to touch the kernel and so there how do you line that up in the life cycle of what the customers get is going to be different. We might be able to take different pieces from different from those 127, make it work at one point but the first time any of us makes a change, it's not coordinated with the other side, it's probably going to break. Anyone our life cycles go out 10 plus years and so engineering that altogether is something that makes it all work together as you upgrade whether it be hardware or your applications and so some people confuse that with not being old till 100 percent open. When we find a bug in rel, rel that's been out there for five years maybe we give that fix back to the upstream community that's open it's out there and so I think that's the part that this doesn't become so accepted now and so much part of the mainstream now that we very much confused projects with products and so that's one of the biggest confusion points out there. >> Yeah really good points there Paul. So when I think about some of the things we've heard over the years is in the original days it was, "Oh well public hug Paul? I'm not going to need rel anymore they've got Linux then kubernetes has come along and Red Hat's had a really strong position but you look at it and you say, "Okay well if I'm most customers, "if I'm doing Amazon, "if I'm doing Google, "if I'm doing Microsoft, "I'm probably going to end up using some of their native services that they've got built-in. Talk about how the role of Red Hat kind of continues to change and you live in this multi cloud environment and i think it's kind of that intersection that you were talking about, open and compatibility as opposed to. You're not saying that Red Hat's going to conquer the world and take down all the other options >> Well cloud providers bring a ton of value. I mean the users have to be smart on how and when they use that value. If you truly are going to be a hundred percent of your applications in one public cloud, then you probably will get the best solution from that one public cloud. Serverless is a great example if you're an Amazon and you spin up via services serverless that container that gets spun up is never going to run outside that Club, if that's okay with you that's okay with you. (Voice scrambles) The we've gone about this is as I said to give you that seamless environment all the way across. If you want to run just containers, (voice scrambles) on one particular cloud vendor and you want it under their kubernetes and it's never going to run in any other place, that's okay too but if you're going to have an environment with applications that are in multiple cloud vendors infrastructure you're even on your own, you're now going to have to spin up these different silos of that technology even though the technology as the same heritage. So that's a huge operational and development cost as you grow bigger and able to order to do that and so our set a strategy is very simple, it's give the developers operations and security people that common environment to work across and over time (voice scrambles) they shouldn't care where the services are coming from. It should just all work and that's why you seen things like automation being so important now. I mean our nation is our biggest growing business with ansible right now and part of the reason is as people spread out to a container based environment applications that may now spread across those different footprints maybe you want to have your front (voice scrambles) we have one of the rel customers in Europe that has the front facing customer side of their ticket, their ticketing system up in the public cloud and they've got the backend financial transaction database pieces that click credit cards behind their firewall, that's really one application spread across containers, if you have do you want to have to manage the front end of that with one kubernetes and the backend of that were the different kubernetes? Probably not and so that's really what we bring to the table as we've really grown in with this new technology. >> Alright, so final question I have for you Paul I'm actually going to get away a little bit from your background on the product piece you have to talk a little bit about just red hat going forward. So you talked about, we know for many years red hat has been much more than the Linux piece you talk about automation I've got some great interviews this week talking about some of the the latest in application development, lots of open source projects and so many open source projects (laughing) nobody can keep them all straight there. So as customers look at strategic partnerships, what is the role of red hat and with now being under IBM Jim white her steps over to become president there Arvind of course had a long relationship and it was the architect behind the Red Hat acquisition what's the same and what's different as we think about Red Hat 2020 under your leadership? >> I think it's a lot of the same I mean I think the the difference becomes in the world we're in right now is sort of how we can help our customers come out of back and back into re-entry right and so how that's going to to be different than the past (voice scrambles) we're working through that with many of our customers and we think we can be a big help here because we run their business and today where they run their business over the platforms on their business and that's not going to go away for them and in fact if anything that's going to get even more critical for them because they've got to get more automation to get just more efficiency out of it so in terms of what we do and as a company that's not going to change at all I mean we've been on this path that we're on for a long time. I stand up in front of our sales kickoffs every year is hearing and virtual as well and I say, "we'll to talk to you about the strategy." Guess what? It hasn't changed much from last year and that's a good thing because these technology rollouts are multi-year rollouts, so we're going to continue on that I mean the other thing too is, our customers are seeing moving many more of their work close to the Linux environment and so I think we can help them expand that as well and I think from an IBM perspective (voice scrambles) one of the big premises here from our perspective is to help us scale because they're in the process of helping their customers move to this next generation architectures and at the same time be able support the current architectures and that's what we do well and so they can just help us get to places that we just wouldn't have had the time and the resources maybe to get there get on our own so we can expand that footprint even more quickly with IBM. So that's the focus right now is to really help our customers move to the next phase of this in terms of re-entry >> Yeah as I've heard you and many other Red Hatters say Red Hat is still Red Hat and definitely it's something that we can see loud and clear at Red Hat summit 2020. Thank you so much Paul. >> Thank you Stu nice to see you again. >> All right lots of coverage from Red Hat summit 2020 be sure to check out the cube net for the whole back catalogue that we have of Paul their customers, there their partners and thank you for so watching the queue [Music]

>> Announcer: From the CUBE studios in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a CUBE conversation. >> Welcome to this special CUBE conversation. I'm John Furrier here in Palo Alto, California. In our remote studio, we have a quarantine crew here during this COVID-19 crisis. Here talking about the crisis and the impact to business and overall work. Joined by a great guest Dustin Kirkland, CUBE alumni, who's now the chief product officer at Apex Clearing. This COVID-19 has really demonstrated to the mainstream world stage, not just inside the industry that we've been covering for many, many years, that the idea of at-scale means something completely different, and certainly DevOps and Agile is going mainstream to survive, and people are realizing that now. No better guest than have Dustin join us, who's had experiences in open source. He's worked across the industry from Ubuntu, Open Stack, Kubernetes, Google, Canonical. Dustin, welcome back to the CUBE here remotely. Looking good. >> Yeah, yeah, thanks, John. Last time we talked, I was in the studio, and here we are talking over the internet. This is a lot of fun. >> Well, I really appreciate it. I know you've been in your new role since September. A lot's changed, but one of the things why I wanted to talk with you is because you and I have talked many times around DevOps. This has been the industry conversation. We've been inside the ropes. Now you're starting to see, with this new scale of work-at-home forcing all kinds of new pressure points, giving people the realization that the entire life with digital and with technology can be different, doesn't have to be augmented with their existing life. It's a full-on technology driven impact, and I think a lot of people are learning that, and certainly, healthcare and finance are two areas, in particular, that are impacted heavily. Obviously, people are worried about the economy, and we're worried about people's lives. These are two major areas, but even outside that, there's new entrepreneurs right now that I know who are working on new ventures. You're seeing people working on new solutions. This is kind of bringing the DevOps concept to areas that quite frankly weren't there. I want to get your thoughts and reaction to that. >> Yeah, without a doubt, I mean, the whole world has changed in 30 short days. We knew something was amiss in China. We knew that there was a lot of danger for people. The danger for business, though, didn't become apparent until vast swathes of the work force got sent home. And there's a number of businesses and industries that are coping relatively well with this. Certainly those who have previously adopted, or have experienced, doing work remotely, doing business by video, teleconference, having resources in the cloud, having people and expertise who are able to continue working at nearly 100% capacity in 100% remote environments. There's a lot of technology behind that, and there are some industries, and in particular, some firms, some organizations, that were really adept and were able to make that shift almost overnight. Maybe there were a couple bumps along the way, some VPN settings needed to be tweaked, and Zoom settings needed to be changed a little bit, but for many, this was a relatively smooth transition, and we may be doing this for a very long time. >> Yeah, I want to get your thoughts, before we get into some of the product stuff that you guys are working on and some other things. What's your general reaction to people in your circles, inside industry and tech industry, and outside, what are you seeing a reaction to this new scale, work from home, social distancing, isolation, what are your observations? >> Yeah, you know, I think we're in for a long haul. This is going to be the new normal for quite some time. I think it's super important to check on the people you care about, and before we get into dev and tech, check on the people you care about, especially people who either aren't yet respecting the social distancing norms and impress upon them the importance that, hey, this is about you, this is about the people you care about, it's about people you don't even know, because there are plenty of people who can carry this and not even know. So definitely check on the people that you care about. And reach out to those people and stay in touch. We all need one another more than ever, right? I manage a team, and it's super important, I think, to understand how much stress everyone is under. I've got over a dozen people that report to me. Most of them have kids and families. We start out our weekly staff meeting now, and we bring the kids in. They're curious, they want to know what's going on. First five, 10 minutes of our meeting is meet the family. And that demystifies some of what we're doing, and actually keeps the other 50 minutes of the meeting pretty quiet in our experience. But it's really humanized an aspect of work from home that's always been a bit taboo. We laugh about the reporter in Korea whose kid and his wife came in during the middle of a live on-air interview. There's certainly, I've worked from home for almost 12 years, like, those are really uncomfortable situations. Until about a month ago, when that just became the norm. And from that perspective, I think there's a humanization that we're far more understanding of people who work from home now than ever before. >> It's funny, I've heard people say, you know, my wife didn't know what I did until I started working at home. And comments to seeing people's family, and saying, wow, that's awesome, and just bringing a personal connection, not just this software mechanism that connects people for some meeting, and we've all been on those meetings. They go long, and you're sitting there, and you're turning the camera off so you can sneeze. All those things are happening. But when you start to think about, beyond it being a software mechanism, that it's a social equation right now. People have shared experiences. It's been an interesting time. >> Yeah, and just sharing those experiences. We do a think internal on our Slack channel every day. We try to post a picture. We call it hashtag recess, and at recess we take a picture of walking the dogs, or playing with the kids, or gardening, or whatever it is, going for a run. Again, just trying to make the best of this, take advantage of, you know, it's hard working from home, but trying to take advantage of some of those once in a lifetime opportunities we have here. And my team has started pub quiz on Fridays, so we're mostly spread across, in the U.S., so we're able to do this at a reasonable hour, but the last couple of Fridays, we've jumped on a Zoom, downloaded a pub trivia game, most of us a crack a beer, or glass of wine, or a cocktail, and you know, it's just, it actually puts a punctuate mark on the end of the week, puts a period on the end of the week. Because that's the other thing about this, man, if you don't have some boundaries, it's easy to go from an eight or nine hour normal day to 10, 12, 14, 16 hour days, Saturday bleeds into Sunday bleeds into Monday, and then the rat race takes over. >> You got to get the exercise. You have a routine. That's my experience. What's your advice for people who are working at home for the first time? Do you have any best practices? >> I actually had a blog post on this about two weeks ago and put up almost a shopping list of some of the things that I've assembled here in the work from home environment. It's something I've been doing since 2008, so it's been there for a good long while. It's a little bit hard to accumulate all the technology that you need, but I would say, most important, have a space, some kind of space. Some people have more room or less, but even just a corner in a master bedroom with a standup desk, some space that is your own, that the family understands and respects. The other best practice is set some time boundaries. I like to start my day early. I'll try to break more a little bit for that recess, see the family some, and then knock off at a reasonable hour, so establish those boundaries. Yeah, I've got a bunch of tips in that blog post I can shoot you after this, but it's the sort of thing that, be a bit understanding, too, of other people in this situation for the first time, perhaps. So you know, offer whatever help and assistance you can, and be understanding that, man, things just aren't like they used to be. >> That's great advice. Thanks for the insights. Want to get to something that I see happening, and this always kind of happens when you see these waves where there's a downturn, or there's some sort of an event. In this case it's catastrophic in the way it vectored in like this and the impact that we just discussed. But what comes out of it is creativity around entrepreneurial activity, and certainly reinvention, businesses reforming, retrenching, resetting, whatever word, pivot, digital transformation, there's plenty of words for it. But this is the time where people can actually get a lot done. I always comment, in my last interview I did, you know, Shakespeare wrote Macbeth when he was sheltering in place, and Isaac Newton invented calculus, so you can actually get some work done. And you're starting to see people look at the new technology and start disrupting old incumbent markets, because now more than ever, things are exposed. The opportunity of recognition becomes clearer. So I wanted to get your thoughts on this. You're a product person, you've got a lot of product management skills, and you're currently taking this DevOps to financial market with fintech and your business, so you're applying known principles and software and tech and disrupting an existing industry. I think this is going to be a common trend for the next five years. >> Yeah, so on that first note, I think you're exactly right. There will be a reckoning, and there will be a ton of opportunities that come out of this for the already or the rapidly transformed digital native, digital focused business. There will be some that survive and thrive here. I think you're seeing a lot of this with the popularity of Zoom that has spiked recently. I think you're going to see technologies like DocuSign being used in places that, some of those places that still require wet signatures, but you just can't get to the notary and sign a, I don't know, a refi on your mortgage or something like that. And so I think you're going to see a bunch of those. The biggest opportunities are really around our education system. I've got two kids at home, and I'm in a pretty forward thinking school district in Austin, Texas, you know, but that's not the norm where our teachers are conducting classes and assignments over Zoom. I've got a kindergartener and a second grader. There's somewhat limits to what they can do with technology. I think you're going to see a lot of entrepreneurial solutions that develop in that space, and that's going to go from K through 12, and then into college. You think about how universities have had to shift and cancel classes, and what's happening with graduation. I've got a six and an eight year old, and I've been told I need to save $200,000 apiece for each of them to go to college, which is just an astounding number, especially to someone like me, who went to an inexpensive public university on a scholarship. Saving that kind of money for college, and just thinking about how much more efficient our education system might be with a lot more digital, a lot more digital education, digital testing and classes, while still maintaining the college experience, what that's going to look like in 10 years. I think we're going to see a lot of changes over these next 18 months to our educational system. >> Dustin, talk about the event dynamics. Physical events don't exist currently. Certainly, when they do come back, they should, and they will, the role of the virtual space is going to be highlighted and new opportunities will emerge. You mentioned education. People learn, not just for school, whether they're kids, whether they're professionals, learning and collaboration, work tools are going to reshape. What's your take on that marketplace, because we got to do virtual events. You can't just replicate a physical event and move it to digital. It's a complex system. >> Yeah, you're talking about an entire industry. We saw the Google Events, Google Next, Google IO, the Microsoft Events, just across the, I'm here in Austin, Texas, all of South by Southwest was canceled, which is just, it's breathtaking. When does that come back, and what does it look like? Is it a year or two or more from now? Events is where I spend my time, and when I get on a plane, and I fly somewhere, I'm usually going to a conference or trade show. Think about the sports industry. People who get on a plane, they go to an NFL game. John, I don't have all the answers, man, but I'm telling you, that entire industry is rapidly, rapidly going to evolve. I hope and pray that one day we're back to a, I can go back to a college football game again. I hope I can sit in a CUBE studio at a CUBE Con or an Open Stack or some other conference again. >> Hey, we should do a rerun, because I was watching the Patriots game last night, Tom Brady beating the Chiefs, October from last year. It was one of the best games of the season, went down to the wire, and I watched it, and I'm like, okay, that's Tom Brady, he's still in the Patriot uniform on the TV. Do we do reruns? This is the question. Right now, there's a big void for the next three months. What do we do? Do we replay the highlights from the CUBE? Do we have physical get togethers with Zoom? What's your take on how people should think about these events? >> Yeah, you know, the reruns only go so far, right? I'm a Texas Aggie, man. I could watch Johnny Football in his prime anytime. But I know what happened, and those games are just not as exciting as something that's a surprise. I'm actually curious about e-sports for the first time. What would it look like to watch a couple of kids who are really good at Madden Football on a Playstation go at it? What would other games that I've never seen look like? In our space, it's a lot more about, I think, podcasts and live content and staying connected and apprised of what's going on, making-- Oh, we locked up there for a second. It's, I think it's going to be really interesting. I'm still following you guys. I certainly see you active on social media. I'm sort of more addicted than ever to the live news, and in fact, I'm ready to start seeing some stuff that doesn't involve COVID-19, so from that perspective, man, keep churning out good content, and good content that's pertinent to the rest of our industry. >> That's great stuff. Well, Dustin, take a minute to explain what you're doing at Apex Clearing, your mission, and what are you guys excited about. >> Yeah, so Apex Clearing, we're a fintech. We're a very forward-focused, digitally-focused fintech. We are well positioned to continue servicing the needs of our clients in this environment. We went fully remote the first week of March, long before it was mandatory, and our business shifted pretty seamlessly. We worked through a couple of hiccups, provisioning extra VPN IP addresses, and upgrading a couple of service plans on some of the softwares, the service we buy, but besides that, our team has done just a marvelous job transitioning to remote. We are in the broker, dealer, and registered advisor space, so we provide the clearing services, which handles stock trades, equity trades, in the back end, and the custodial services. We actually hold, safeguard, the equities that our correspondents, we call our clients correspondents, their retail customers end up holding. So we've been around in our current form since about 2012. This was a retread of a previous company that was bought and retooled as Apex Clearing in 2012. Very shortly after that, we helped Robinhood, Wealthfront, Betterment, a whole bunch of really forward-looking companies reinvent what it meant to buy and sell and trade securities online, and to hold assets in a robo advisor like Betterment. Today, we are definitely well-known, well-respected for how quickly and seamlessly our APIs can be used by our correspondents in building really modern e-banking and e-brokerage experiences. >> So you guys-- >> So that went-- >> Are you guys like a DevOps platform-- >> We're more like software as a service for fintech and brokerage. So our products are largely APIs that our correspondents use their own credentials to interact with, and then using our APIs, they can open accounts, which means get an account number from the systems that allows them to then fund that account, connect via ACH and other bank connectivity platforms, transfer cash into those accounts, and then start conducting trades. Some of our correspondents have that down to a 60-second experience in a mobile app. From a mobile app, you can register for that account, if you need to, take a picture of an IED, have all of that imported, add your tax information, have that account number associated with your banking account, move a couple hundred dollars into that banking account, and then if the stock market's open, start buying and selling stock in that same window. >> Great, well, I wanted to talk about this, because to the earlier bigger picture, I think people are going to be applying DevOps principles, younger entrepreneurs, but also, reborn, if you will, professionals who are old school IT or whatever, moving faster. And you wrote a blog post I want to get your thoughts on. You wrote it on April second. How we've adapted Ubuntu's time-based release cycles to fintech and software as a service. What is that all about? What's the meaning behind this post? You guys are doing something new, unique, or-- >> To this industry and to many of the people around me, even our clients and customers around me, this is a whole new world. They've never seen anything like it. To those of us who have been around Linux, open source, certainly Ubuntu, Open Stack, Kubernetes, it's just standard operating procedures. There's nothing surprising about it, necessarily. But either it's some combination of the financial services world, just the nature of proprietary software, but also the concept of software as a service, SaaS, which is very different than Ubuntu or Kubernetes or Open Stack, which is released software, right. We ship software at the end of an Ubuntu cycle or a Kubernetes cycle. It's very different when you're a software as a service platform, and it's a matter of rolling out to production some changes, and those changes then going live. So, I wrote a post mainly to give some transparency, largely to our clients, our correspondents. We've got a couple hundred customers that use the Apex platform. I've met with many of them in a sort of one-on-many, one-to-one, one-on-many basis, where I'll show up and deliver the product road map, a couple of product managers will come and do a deep dive. Part of what we communicate to those customers is around, now, around our release cycles, and to many of them, it's a foreign concept that they've just never seen or heard before, and so I put together the blog post. We shared it internally, and educated the teams, and it was well-received. We shared it externally privately with a number of customers, and it was well-received, and a couple of them, actually a couple of the Silicon Valley based customers said, hey, why don't you just put this out there on Medium or on your blog or under an Apex banner, because this actually would be really well-received by others in the family, other partners in the family. So I'm happy to kind of dive into a couple of the key principles here, and we can sort of talk through it if you're interested, John. >> Well, I think the main point is you guys have a release cycle that is the speed of open source to SaaS, and fintech, which again, proprietary stuff is slower, monolithic. >> Yeah, the key principle is that we've taken this, and we've made it predictable and transparent, and we commit to these cycles. You know, most people maybe familiar with Ubuntu releasing twice a year, right, April and October, Ubuntu has released every April and October since 2004. I was involved with Ubuntu between 2008 and 2018 as an engineer, an engineering manager, and then a product manager, and eventually a VP of product at Canonical, and that was very much my life for 10 years, oriented around that. In that time, I spent a lot of time around Open Stack, which adopted a very similar model. Open Stack's released every six months, just after the Ubuntu release. A number of the members of the technical team and the committee that formed Open Stack came out of either Ubuntu or Canonical or both, and really helped influence that community. It's actually quite similar in Kubernetes, which developed independent, generally, of Ubuntu. Kubernetes releases on a quarterly basis, about every three months, and again, it's the sort of thing where it's just a cycle. It happens like clockwork every three months. So when I joined Apex and took a look at a number of the needs that we had, our correspondents had, our relationship managers, our sales team, the client-facing people in the organization, one of the biggest items that bubbled straight to the top is our customers wanted more transparency into our road maps, tighter commitments on when we're going to deliver things, and the ability to influence those. And you know what, that's not dissimilar from any product managers plight anywhere in the industry. But what I was able to do is take some of those principles that are common around Ubuntu and Kubernetes and Open Stack, which by the way, are quite familiar. We use a lot of Ubuntu and Kubernetes inside of Apex, and many of our correspondents are quite familiar with those cycles, but they'd never really seen or heard of a software as a service, a SaaS vendor, using something like that. So that's what's new. >> You've got some cycles going now. You've got schedules, so just looking here, just to get this out there, 'cause I think it's data. You did it last year in October, November, mid-cycle in January of this year. You've got a couple summits coming up? >> Yeah, that's right, we've broken it down into three cycles per year, three 16-week cycles per year. So it's a little bit more frequent than the twice a year Ubuntu, not quite as frenetic as the quarterly Kubernetes cycles. 16 weeks time three is 48. That leaves us four weeks of slack, really to handle Thanksgiving and Christmas and end of year holidays, Chinese New Year, whatever might come up. I'll tell you from experience, that's always been a struggle in the Ubuntu and Open Stack and Kubernetes world, it's hard to plan around those cycles, so what we've done here is we've actually just allocated four weeks of a slush fund to take care of that. We're at three 16-week cycles per year. We version them according to the year and then an iterator. So 20A, 20B, 20C are our three cycles in 2020, and we'll do 21A, B, and C next year. Each of those cycles has three summits. So to your point about we get together, back in the before everyone stopped traveling, we very much enjoyed twice a year getting together for CUBE con. We very much enjoyed the Open Stack summits and the various Ubuntu summits. Inside of a small company like ours, these were physical. We'd get together in Dallas or New York or Chicago or Portland, which is the four places we have offices. We were doing that basically every six weeks or so for one of these summits. Now they're all virtual. We handle them over Zoom. When they were physical, we'd do the summit in about three days of packed agendas, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. Now that we've gone to virtual, we've actually spread it a little bit thinner across the week, and so we've done, we've poked some holes in the day, which has been an interesting learning experience, and I think we're all much happier with the most recent summit we did, spreading it over the course of the week, accounting for time zones, giving ourself, everyone, lunch breaks and stuff. >> Well, we'll have to keep checking in. I want to certainly collaborate with you on the virtual digital, check your progress. We're all learning, and iterating, if you will, on the value that you can do with these digital ones. Try to get that success with physical, not always easy. Appreciate, and you're looking good, looking good and safe. Stay safe, and great to check in with you, and congratulations on the new opportunity. >> Yeah, thanks, John. >> Appreciate it. Dustin Kirkland, chief product officer at Apex Clearing. I'm John Furrier with the CUBE, checking in with a remote interview during this time when we are getting all the information of best practices on how to deal with this new at-scale, the new shift that is digital, that is impacting, and opportunities are there, certainly a lot of challenges, and hopefully, the healthcare, the finance, and the business models of these companies can continue and get back to work soon. But certainly, the people are still sheltered in place, working hard, being creative, be the coverage here in the CUBE. I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. (bright electronic music)