live from Austin Texas it's the cube covering cube con and cloud native con 2017 brought to you by Red Hat the Lenox foundation and the cubes ecosystem partners hey welcome back everyone we are live here in Austin Texas for this the cube exclusive coverage of the cloud native con and cube con kubernetes con north america 2017 I'm John Fourier wrapping up the show of two days of live coverage it was dude Minutemen and Justin Warren analysts with the cube guys you guys are out in the hallways Justin you read all the sessions still we've been doing interviews great shows second year full year was a standalone show it was kind of you know a small show last year but really amazing size seven forty five hundred people or so a lot of logos diamond sponsors platinum sponsors gold sponsors silver sponsors startup sponsors media partners it's a freaking commercial party yet tons of developers tons of action so it's not so much a vendor show a lot of vendor interest in what is the a-list developers in this new way to program new way to build services from lyft donating massive to envoy code Google bringing in massive code a lot of contributions a lot of energy a lot of tech action let's wrap it up do yeah so John first of all you I I we had covered the show last year you had gone done it I seen the buzz around kubernetes so I had a certain expectation and actually it's a the show exceeded my expectation you know Dan conan told us we're gonna have over 4,000 people so that it wasn't the size of it but just the quality of the people and the interactions here you know we've been in other shows you know over the years with the cube where you've had you know those builders and you know smart people but wow you know you walk around here people that have done some of these things many time and as we were talking with a number of them it's you know there's some of this infrastructure and really trying to you know solve some of these things and make infrastructure boring that now we've been beating on for years as well as you know it's really helping the applications and I like it this really kind of bridges you know those environments because infrastructure has always known the reason we have infrastructure is to help the applications and for too long infrastructure has been this boat anchor and you know smart people who've been through you know lots of battles before and it feels a little different it feels like we were making some progress you know just and I were talking ahead of the show I remember when we wrapped up Amazon last week it's like serverless holds a lot of promise well server list does not eclipse all of the cloud native and kubernetes stuff here we're actually seeing some of the intersection I know I want to hear Justin's take on some of it but you know a lot of good things you know just in 20 or 50 sessions here they're all online by the way on their YouTube channel for the CN CF you had a chance to kind of walk with always go to some sessions what did you find most exciting what was the notable point the comment sessions here have been spectacular I agree with you the quality of the attendees from from from customers from people who are building the things from vendors it's it's really really high quality stuff the sessions are really technical it depends on which part of the ecosystem you want to dive into so there's not as much in entry level and high level stuff so people who were involved in this ecosystem know what they're doing so it'll be interesting to see how that changes over the next couple of years I expect that there's going to be a bit more intro level thing although boring is the new exciting so maybe there will be no need to do a lot of the intro stuff because it'll be abstracted away so there's a lot of projects that are about basically about making everything easy that is the goal that's what I'm hearing around the conference today and there's lots of there we saw in the keynote yesterday the idea of meta particle which is basically layering extra layers of abstraction on top of kubernetes we saw it again in the keynote with Chen today where they're trying to put different services on top of kubernetes so essentially kubernetes goes away and just becomes invisible it's like plumbing Clayton Coleman mentioned that from Red Hat making containers boring I agree boring is the new black that means boring is working that's foundational to me I think I'm excited by the fact that we're it's not a lot of land grabbing so to speak on it by the vendors it's very foundational tech and people are focused on don't screw it up let's we got a good thing going on it was goober Nettie's that's kind of the vibe I'm sensing and then the excitement of opportunity yeah there seems to be a lot of that anything jump out at you Justin on in terms of tech hallway conversations notable emerging projects that's your eye as catching up with you just before the show we we were talking about what are you looking forward to and for me two of the big things was service and storage like state management and I agree with you those are the two things that still aren't really solve I just came from the server that's working group just before coming on here and there are still a whole bunch of foundational questions about what service actually is is it function to the service is it more than that does s3 count as as something which is service because you don't actually care about which server you're hitting maybe that's service so there's still a lot of work to be done there about defining what that looks like and creating some standards around things standards is apparently a dirty word which I thought it was a bit strange that this whole idea of what standards a great isn't it it's great it's a standard which are which allows you to build other things on top of that I think we're going to see more and more of that that's what we've seen with kubernetes that's one of the the great benefits of having this standardized thing run by CN CF is everyone else can take that off the table as a as a competitive thing so we're not trying to outdo each other and be more kubernetes than anyone else instead people are building things on top of that so we're seeing storage providers like diamante we're seeing networking providers who are doing things with sto and we've works so that ecosystem is being deliberately created by taking some of that competitive pressure off the table okay that's a great point I want to bring that stool and get your thoughts because we interviewed Ben seek single men from lights light stats and he's super smart guy great conversation where things I asked him about his innovation around communities and he says look it you got a is building communities and having them run things is not as good as being forced to come together around standards you mentioned Ethernet a lot of the OSI model was formulated because if you didn't standardize there was no outcome for anybody yeah so there's that kind of going on with kubernetes where just has come together let's it should be a good word and it was done deliberately I was again talking with Jen that like community is is a kind of a buzzword of the cook of the conference there are specific things that have been done to build a community here it's not just about technology it's about the people and we've got things like the diversity scholarships that we saw on on the first day we're 103 people were were sponsored to come here and be on this conference yeah you know I come into something like that a little bit skeptical when you want to poke at things you know coming off of the Amazon show it's there are many people that are scared of Amazon this show everybody's actually really happy and they're like great it's no longer Hadrian made it made a comment to us he's like it's not the everybody about Amazon Club they're here and everybody's actually happy they're here now you know some of the things they're doing will still kind of play out over time but community it's real John did the amount of smart men and women that we talk to I agree with you blew my mind I mean and who we just had on you know you mentioned you know some of the other guests we've had on just super high quality you know just density you brought up a good point this is something that we hadn't talked about this could bring it up Amazon yes last week we're talking about the Amazon how they're winning everything else everyone's reacting to Amazon and this show is reacting to Amazon in a positive way because the culture here they're from the same tech religion if you want to call it a religion they're cloud native they buy the Amazon value proposition yeah so it's not like this is an anti-feminist on crowd if anything they're all going hey Thank You Amazon keep validating micro services I mean why would you it is very much a yes and it's like cloud great what else can we do let's do more of that let's let's layer things on top of this cloud thing and let's in fact go multiplayer let's put with cloud all the things yeah and the competition strategy is gonna be interesting by the families and what's what's great is that they're enabling stuff so to me we're gonna see where the value will be created obviously the software engineering piece it's going to be a big definition I think so the word software engineering now means something you look at all the tech here it's software engineering then the application developers our application developers they're not engineering plumping right so I mean so you're gonna start to see you know that kind of roll so this new ecosystem might emerge you guys reaction to that I mean John look kubernetes commoditized it's no longer you know there's not the orchestration Wars we talked about this coming in it was one of the things that surprised me is this Kelsey said on his keynote this one actually wasn't any really big surprises this community has a lot of transparency so if you're plugged in if you're talking to the people we understand the roadmap there's a lot of projects and nobody can keep up with all the changes but some of the base pieces we understand where that is the the service mesh piece you know huge participation people go into the sessions everybody's interest learning to it and there's so many pieces where people who contribute customers are getting value and it's still very very early days I I love the line they said it's like hey 4100 people here that's probably everyone running kubernetes right now with around the world so you know John I how BIG's this gonna get you know what do we say and I'd love to get just let's take us he was more in the hallways but just to kind of smell on the vibe here and kind of feeling it and read the tea leaves and if things if they smell brisk if the CNC F doesn't screw it up which I don't think they will cuz Dan's very confident they got a great team I do agree with Justin this is a community that was designed by the people first that have the right principles and and know what they want and then will allow detect the form so I think we might see an easier decision around standards if that all happens things like standards and whatnot to make it grow I think this could be a little mini reinvent going on here so I feel a lot like reinvents do our first time there where you know we got all the best guests because such a small community now it's so popular we got it they're all booked up and we're trying to grab guests I think this could be as big as reinvent in not as now but eventually this could be an industry event because if this all works out you're going to see two major audiences those software engineering plumbers and then on the application side that's going to be the business logic like they've been talking about and then that's going to create value ecosystem a third new constituency if that happens it's a services world and it's a you know twenty thousand person show yeah I can definitely see this growing into a big big show we don't have many industry independent shows anymore most of them are a particular vendors ecosystem this one is yeah that's like kubernetes came from Google but it's the CNC F is an independent body they're being very careful about which projects that they add in I was speaking with a lot of the members and of the of the founding board and they are being very careful to not make the same mistakes that's happened with OpenStack they've learned a lot of the lessons from OpenStack and and other communities as well so they're making some deliberate decisions based on experience and knowledge that they've gained from other places so that this will be sustainable and that it can grow into something really really big and I'll just add to your point there Dan Cohen said on the opening keynote they specifically designed it to be a technical event yes not a business event yes Stu that takes a question cube con with a-c-c ube could be the business of kubernetes get out there confuse your prediction for 2018 we're bringing our best coverage guys thanks for commentary last word thoughts this show sum it up wrap it up cube all the things yeah I mean just impressive John after you know this is our last big event of the year you know just so you know humbled to be able to be you know in this community meet some amazing people and you know share it with our audience you know that this community is something that comes out of this we do community with the K I guess for kubernetes yeah I think high quality okay purposeful high integrity and smart and I think that is formula that will play well love the diversity love all the action guys great great wrap-up Justin's do is the cube here wrapping up coop con cloud native con North America 2017 in Austin Texas thanks for watching of course visit Silk'n angle calm and youtube.com which I still contain go the cube net and we keep on comm and special shout out to Red Hat for all the great support appreciate it and continued success to Red Hat the cubes signing off from Austin Texas thanks for watching

>> Announcer: Live from Austin, Texas, It's The Cube. Covering KubeCon 2017 and CloudNativeCon 2017. Brought to you by Red Hat, The Lennox Foundation, and The Cube's ecosystem partners. >> Okay, welcome back everyone. Live here in Austin, Texas, this is The Cube's exclusive coverage of the CNCF CloudNativeCon which was yesterday, and today is KubeCon, for Kubernetes conference, and a little bit tomorrow as well, some sessions. Our next guest is Adrian Cockcroft, VP of Cloud Architecture Strategy at AWS, Amazon Web Services, and my co-host Stu Miniman. Obviously, Adrian, an industry legend on Twitter and the industry, formerly with Netflix, knows a lot about AWS, now VP of Cloud Architecture, thanks for joining us. Appreciate it. >> Thanks very much. >> This is your first time as an AWS employee on The Cube. You've been verified. >> I've been on The Cube before. >> Many times. You've been verified. What's going on now with you guys, obviously coming off a hugely successful reinvent, there's a ton of video of me ranting and raving about how you guys are winning, and there's no second place, in the rear-view mirror, certainly Amazon's doing great. But CloudNative's got the formula, here. This is a cultural shift. What is going on here that's similar to what you guys are doing architecturally, why are you guys here, are you evangelizing, are you recruiting, are you proposing anything? What's the story? >> Yeah, it's really all of those things. We've been doing CloudNative for a long time, and the key thing with AWS, we always listen to our customers, and go wherever they take us. That's a big piece of the way we've always managed to keep on top of everything. And in this case, the whole container industry, there's a whole whole market there, there's a lot of different pieces, we've been working on that for a long time, and we found more and more people interested in CNCF and Kubernetes, and really started to engage. Part of my role is to host the open source team that does outbound engagement with all the different open source communities. So I've hired a few people, I hired Arun Gupta, who's very active in CNCF earlier this year, and internally we were looking at, we need to join CNCF at some point. We got to do that eventually and venture in, let's go make it happen. So last summer we just did all the internal paperwork, and running around talking to people and got everyone on the same page. And then in August we announced, hey, we're joining. So we got that done. I'm on the board of CNCF, Arun's my alternate for the board and technical, running around, and really deeply involved in as much of the technology and everything. And then that was largely so that we could kind of get our contributions from engineering on a clear footing. We were starting to contribute to Kupernetes, like as an outsider to the whole thing. So that's why we're, what's going on here? So getting that in place was like the basis for getting the contributions in place, we start hiring, we get the teams in place, and then getting our ducks in a row, if you like. And then last week at Reinvent, we announced EKS, the EC2 Kubernete's Service. And this week, we all had to be here. Like last week after Reinvent, everyone at AWS wants to go and sleep for a week. But no, we're going to go to Austin, we're going to do this. So we have about 20 people here, we came in, I did a little keynote yesterday. I could talk through the different topics, there, but fundamentally we wanted to be here where we've got the engineering teams here, we've got the engineering managers, they're in full-on hiring mode, because we've got the basic teams in place, but there's a lot more we want to do, and we're just going out and engaging, really getting to know the customers in detail. So that's really what drives it. Customer interactions, little bit of hiring, and just being present in this community. >> Adrian, you're very well known in the open source community, everything that you've done. Netflix, when you were on the VC side, you evangelized a bunch of it, if I can use the term. Amazon, many of us from the outside looked and, trying to understand. Obviously Amazon used lots of open source, Amazon's participated in a number of open source. MXNet got a lot of attention, joining the CNCF is something, I know this community, it's been very positively received, everybody's been waiting for it. What can you tell us about how Amazon, how do they think about open source? Is that something that fits into the strategy, or is it a tactic? Obviously, you're building out your teams, that sends certain signals to market, but can you help clarify for those of us that are watching what Amazon thinks about when it comes to this space? >> I think we've been, so, we didn't really have a team focused on outbound communication of what we were doing in open source until I started building this team a year ago. I think that was the missing link. We were actually doing a lot more than most people realized. I'd summarize it as saying, we were doing more than most people expected, but less than we probably could have been given the scale of what we are, the scale that AWS is at. So part of what we're doing is unlocking some internal demand where engineering teams were going. We'd like to open source something, we don't know how to engage with the communities. We're trying to build trust with these communities, and I've hired a team, I've got several people now, who are mostly from the open source community, we were also was kind of interviewing people like crazy. That was our sourcing for this team. So we get these people in and then we kind of say, all right, we have somebody that understands how to build these communities, how to respond, how to engage with the open source community. It's a little different to a standard customer, enterprise, start up, those are different entities that you'd want to relate to. But from a customer point of view, being customer-obsessed as AWS is, how do we get AWS to listen to an open source community and work with them, and meet all their concerns. So we've been, I think, doing a better job of that now we've pretty much got the team in place. >> That's your point, is customer focus is the ethos there. The communities are your customers in this case. So you're formalizing, you're formalizing that for Amazon, which has been so busy building out, and contributing here and there, so it sounds like there was a lot of activity going on within AWS, it was just kind of like contributing, but so much work on building out cloud ... >> Well there's a lot going on, but if no one was out there telling the story, you didn't know about it. Actually one of the best analogies we have for the EKS is actually our EMR, our Hadoop service, which launched 2010 or something, 2009, we've had it forever. But from the first few years when we did EMR, it was actually in a fork. We kept just sort of building our own version of it to do things, but about three or four years ago, we started upstreaming everything, and it's a completely clean, upstreamed version of all the Hadoop and all the related projects. But you make one API call, a cluster appears. Hey, give me a Hadoop cluster. Voom, and I want Spark and I want all these other things on it. And we're basically taking Kubernetes, it's very similar, we're going to reduce that to a single API call, a cluster appears, and it's a fully upstreamed experience. So that's, in terms of an engineering relationship to open source, we've already got a pretty good success story that nobody really knew about. And we're following a very similar path. >> Adrian, can you help us kind of unpack the Amazon Kubernetes stack a little bit? One of the announcements had a lot of attention, definitely got our attention, Fargate, kind of sits underneath what Kubernetes is doing, my understanding. Where are you sitting with the service measures, kind of bring us through the Amazon stack. What does Amazon do on its own versus the open source, and how those all fit together. >> Yeah, so everyone knows Amazon is a place where you can get virtual machines. It's easy to get me a virtual machine from ten years ago, everyone gets that, right? And then about three years ago, I think it was three years ago, we announced Lambda - was that two or three years ago? I lose track of how many reinvents ago it was. But with Lambda it's like, well, just give me a function. But as a first class entity, there's a, give me a function, here's the code I want you to run. We've now added two new ways that you can deploy to, two things you can deploy to. One of them's bare metal, which is already announced, one of the many, many, many announcements last week that might have slipped by without you noticing, but Bare Metal is a service. People go, 'those machines are really big'. Yes, of course they're really big! You get the whole machine and you can be able to bring your own virtualization or run whatever you want. But you could launch, you could run Kubernetes on that if you wanted, but we don't really care what you run it on. So we had Bare Metal, and then we have container. So Fargate is container as a first class entity that you deploy to. So here's my container registry, point you at it, and run one of these for me. And you don't have to think about deploying the underlying machines it's running on, you don't have to think about what version of Lennox it is, you have to build an AMI, all of the agents and fussing around, and you can get it in much smaller chunks. So you can say you get a CPU and half a gig of ram, and have that as just a small container. So it becomes much more granular, and you can get a broader range of mixes. A lot of our instances are sort of powers of two of a ratio of CPU to memory, and with Fargate you can ask for a much broader ratio. So you can have more CPU, less memory, and go back the other way, as well. 'Cause we can mix it up more easily at the container level. So it gives you a lot more flexibility, and if you buy into this, basically you'll get to do a lot of cost reduction for the sort of smaller scale things that you're running. Maybe test environments, you could shrink them down to just the containers and not have a lot of wasted space where you're trying to, you have too many instances running that you want to put it in. So it's partly the finer grain giving you more ability to say -- >> John: Or consumption choice. >> Yeah, and the other thing that we did recently was move to per-second billing, after the first minute, it's per-second. So the granularity of Cloud is now getting to be extremely fine-grained, and Lambda is per hundred millisecond, so it's just a little bit -- >> $4.03 for your bill, I mean this is the key thing. You guys have simplified the consumption experience. Bare Metal, VM's, containers, and functions. I mean pick one. >> Or pick all of them, it's fine. And when you look at the way Fargate's deployed in ECS it's a mixture. It's not all one or all the other, you deploy a number of instances with your containers on them, plus Fargate to deploy some additional containers that maybe didn't fit those instances. Maybe you've got a fleet of GPU enhanced machines, but you want to run a bit of Logic around it, some other containers in the same execution environment, but these don't need to be on the GPU. That kind of thing, you can mix it up. The other part of the question was, so how does this play into Kubernetes, and the discussions are just that we had to release the thing first, and then we can start talking, okay, how does this fit. Parts of the model fit into Kubernetes, parts don't. So we have to expose some more functionality in Fargate for this to make sense, 'cause we've got a really minimal initial release right now, we're going to expose it and add some more features. And then we possibly have to look at ways that we mutate Kubernetes a little bit for it to fit. So the initial EKS release won't include Fargate, because we're just trying to get it out based on what everyone knows today, we'd rather get that out earlier. But we'll be doing development work in the meantime, so a subsequent release we'll have done the integration work, which will all happen in public, in discussion with the community, and we'll have a debate about, okay, this is the features Fargate needs to properly integrate into Kubernetes, and there are other similar services from other top providers that want to integrate to the same API. So it's all going to be done as a public development, how we architect this. >> I saw a tweet here, I want to hear your comments on, it's from your keynote, someone retweeted, "managing over 100,000 clusters on ACS, hashtag Fargate," integrated into ECS, your hashtag, open, ADM's open. What is that hundred thousand number. Is that the total number, is that an example? On elastic container service, what does that mean? >> So ECS is a very large scale, multi-tenant container operation service that we've had for several years. It's in production, if you compare it to Kubernetes it's running much larger clusters, and it's been running at production-grade for longer. So it's a little bit more robust and secure and all those kinds of things. So I think it's missing some Kubernetes features, and there's a few places where we want to bring in capabilities from Kubernetes and make ECS a better experience for people. Think of Kubernetes as some what optimized for the developer experience, and ECS for more the operations experience, and we're trying to bring all this together. It is operating over a hundred thousand clusters of containers, over a hundred thousand clusters. And I think the other number was hundreds of millions of new containers are launched every week, or something like that. I think it was hundreds of millions a week. So, it's a very large scale system that is already deployed, and we're running some extremely large customers on, like Expedia and Macbook. Macbook ... Mac Box. Some of these people are running tens of thousands of containers in production as a single, we have single clusters in the tens of thousands range. So it's a different beast, right? And it meets a certain need, and we're going to evolve it forwards, and Kubernetes is serving a very different purpose. If you look at our data science space, if you want exactly the same Hadoop thing, you can get that on prem, you can run EMR. But we have Athena and Red Shift and all these other ways that are more native to the way we think, where we can go iterate and build something very specific to AWS, so you blend these two together and it depends on what you're trying to achieve. >> Well Adrian, congratulations on a great opportunity, I think the world is excited to have you in your role, if you could clarify and just put the narrative around, what's actually happening in AWS, what's been happening, and what you guys are going to do forward. I'll give you the last minute to let folks know what your job is, what your objective is, what you're looking for to hire, and your philosophy in the open source for AWS. >> I think there's a couple of other projects, and we've talked, this is really all about containers. The other two key project areas that we've been looking at are deep learning frameworks, since all of the deep learning frameworks are open source. A lot of Kubernetes people are using it to run GPUs and do that kind of stuff. So Apache MXNet is another focus on my team. It went into the incubation phase last January, we're walking it through, helping it on its way. It's something where we're 30, 40% of that project is AWS contribution. So we're not dominating it, but we're one of its main sponsors, and we're working with other companies. There's joint work with, it's lots of open source projects around here. We're working with Microsoft on Gluon, we're working with Facebook and Microsoft on Onyx which is an open URL network exchange. There's a whole lot of things going on here. And I have somebody on my team who hasn't started yet, can't tell you who it is, but they're starting pretty soon, who's going to be focusing on that open source, deep learning AI space. And the final area I think is interesting is IOT, serverless, Edge, that whole space. One announcement recently is free AltOS. So again, we sort of acquired the founder of this thing, this free real-time operating system. Everything you have, you probably personally own hundreds of instances of this without knowing it, it's in everything. Just about every little thing that sits there, that runs itself, every light bulb, probably, in your house that has a processor in it, those are all free AltOS. So it's incredibly pervasive, and we did an open source announcement last week where we switched its license to be a pure MIT license, to be more friendly for the community, and announced an Amazon version of it with better Amazon integration, but also some upgrades to the open source version. So, again, we're pushing an open source platform, strategy, in the embedded and IOT space as well. >> And enabling people to build great software, take the software engineering hassles out for the application developers, while giving the software engineers more engineering opportunities to create some good stuff. Thanks for coming on The Cube and congratulations on your continued success, and looking forward to following up on the Amazon Web Services open source collaboration, contribution, and of course, innovation. The Cube doing it's part here with its open source content, three days of coverage of CloudNativeCon and KubeCon. It's our second day, I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman, we'll be back with more live coverage in Austin, Texas, after this short break. >> Offscreen: Thank you.

>> Narrator: Live from Austin, Texas, it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2017, brought to you by Red Hat, the Linux Foundation, and theCUBE's ecosystem partners. >> Okay, welcome back, everyone. This is theCUBE's exclusive coverage live here in Austin, Texas for the CNCF's two conferences, CloudNativeCon, which was yesterday, and two days, today and tomorrow, KubeCon for Kubernetes' conference. This is theCUBE, of course, from SiliconANGLE Media. I'm John Furrier with my cohost, Stu Miniman. Our next guest, Dan Kohn, is the executive director of the CNCF, the man who put it all together. Congratulations. Welcome back to theCUBE. Good to see you. >> Oh, absolutely. Thrilled to have you guys back here again. >> So you kind of doing a victory lap here now, high fiving each other? >> Dan: Great hugs. >> John: Great event. >> Laughing: I'm glad it's a good event, and I am hearing fantastic feedback that folks are thrilled to be here. But we sort of describe this moment for the organization and the community as being the end of the beginning. >> John: Yeah. >> Where we now have all the major cloud vendors, all of the biggest enterprise software companies. We have a core group of 14 projects anchored by Kubernetes, but tons and tons of work in front of us. >> And tons of success, so I'm just going to read a couple of highlights from yesterday. There's a lot today. Baidu joins the CNCF, a lot of scaling production application examples, 31 new silver end-user members joined, Alibaba Cloud update to platinum, CoreDNS 1.0, Containerd, Fluentd, Jaeger, tons of news. Obviously, we've been pumping out the coverage. Today, again, more and more great goodness. But really interesting is that you guys have put a frame around this community to allow it to grow, to fertilize the open source vibe, which is all cloud but yet scaled. And you put up a slide I want to get your reaction to that I thought was compelling yesterday during your keynote. It was the flywheel, circle, and it said projects, products, profit. >> Dan: Right. >> And not that you're promoting profit, but you're not hiding the ball, either, saying, hey, you know what? There's a lot of commercial interest in cloud, obviously. We saw AWS' success last week. And that is if you create good products in this community framework, there's profit to be had. >> Right. So first of all, I should admit to plagiarizing that slide from Linux Foundation Executive Director Jim Zemlin. >> And similarly, I think you can look at a lot of aspects... >> It's an open source feature. >> Dan: Yes. >> Free for you to use. >> John: Right. >> Similarly, I think there's a lot of ways in which Kubernetes is trying to build on the success of Linux. And Jim even describes Kubernetes as the Linux of the cloud. >> John: Yeah. >> Stu: Yeah. >> John: That's a good point. >> Dan, one of the things we've been talking around Kubernetes is you talk about scale. >> Dan: Right. >> Talk about scale of the CNCF. You have 4 to 14 projects. People are a little worried when you get all the vendors around here and there's all these projects. It's a foundation thing, it's going to go off the rails. >> Dan: Yeah. >> Customers aren't going to have a voice. How do we make sure we kind of learn from some of the things that other projects have had challenges with in the past? >> And I think that's our advantage, which is the great thing about coming later than some of the other foundations, is we can look at where they had successes and where they had issues. And our aspiration for CNCF is to get to go make entirely new mistakes rather than replicating some of the issues that have come before. And so really from the beginning of CNCF, we had a somewhat unusual and frankly a little bit cumbersome charter where I describe it at times as a three-ring circus. We have a governing board made up of the vendors that are putting a lot of money into the community, but they don't get to run the projects and they don't even get to pick the projects. Instead, they appoint six of the nine members of an independent technical oversight committee, kind of like the Supreme Court. And then we have a third group in the end-user community that I'm thrilled to say is now up to 28 members in it. They appoint one of those folks. We finally got that working. We have Sam Lambert, the director of infrastructure at GitHub, who has just made a huge commitment to Kubernetes and is moving all their infrastructure over into it. Those seven appoint the last two. And so that body, and they just had their public meeting a couple hours ago. They feel very strongly about their independence, about their reputation, that they're trying to make very good judgments based on what they're seeing in the marketplace. >> That's interesting, the three-ring circle. I like how you put it. But let's talk about the end-user piece because I think that's critical. One of the things we were commenting earlier from the Lyft folks was you have a lot of end users who have built some large-scale systems out of their own sheer necessity. >> Dan: Definitely. >> And that is now being donated in. We saw Kubernetes come in with, you shepherded beautifully, went from Google, but you've got Lyft donating an amazing product convoy. >> This first convoy has a huge amount of excitement. And what was fun was, actually, on the same stage that they contributed back in LA in September, Uber contributed a separate project. Now, unlike Uber and Lyft, the two projects are in no way competitive- >> John: Yeah. >> Like Jaeger is really fantastic tracing one. But what they have in common is that they're companies that have had to grow from nothing to extremely high scale and then had problems that they solved. And they wanted to share that expertise with us. >> I want to get your thoughts on this. Because we've been speculating, on theCUBE, we've been kind of thinking, an editorial, but just that this is all good business. Now, that's pretty obvious, right? You're starting to see this kind of contribution, the gifts that keep on giving. These are significant code. >> Dan: Yeah. >> Not like, okay, let's start a little group and huddle and build something organically. You have real goodness coming in from Google, Uber, Lyft, and there's a million others. >> Dan: Right. >> How is that changing the game? Certainly accelerating it. That's really bringing goods to the table. >> Right. I think the whole... >> You have to manage it. >> Well, and for what it's worth, I don't actually manage the projects. And so we do provide a set of services- >> John: The community? >> -to them and we help them, we market them. But one of the unusual aspects of CNCF is that the projects do actually manage themselves. A little bit of guidance from the TOC, but we really are unusual in that sense. And that's one of the reasons the projects have been... >> And what's interesting is, to connect the dots, though, one step further, you're talking about a commercial entity donating massive intellectual property in the open for all the goodness of everyone else. But yet that flywheel is continuing. They're still using it. So it is inherently commercial dynamic. >> Right. And back to that circle, I think really the underlying concept is that companies agree that sharing key parts of their infrastructure has a huge amount of value to the whole ecosystem, to each other. And then they're absolutely eager to compete above that. And so you can look at it with the public clouds where we have now Amazon, Microsoft, Google, Alibaba, IBM, Oracle all at the table. They are absolutely fierce competitors. But they're saying that this specific software infrastructure layer isn't the area that they want to compete. They want to compete on all the value-added services, customer service, et cetera. >> Dan, I wonder if you can speak to how CNCF connects to some of the broader communities out there. Things like Kata containers got announced coming out of the OpenStack group. You've got a serverless track happening here, kind of extends some of where Kubernetes is going. How does CNCF fit into the broader... >> Sure. And it's definitely the case that all the innovation out there cannot happen in CNCF. Most obviously, everything that we do, almost everything depends on Linux. And so that's our parent organization, the Linux Foundation. But we've had a good collaboration with Jonathan Bryce from OverStack. They have two booths on the floor here at the show. And we've spoken to Clear Containers and RunV, the two predecessors in the past. But the part that I'm particularly pleased with for Kata containers is that it is an OCI-compliant runtime, that's another sister organization, and is really designed to work well for Kubernetes. And then they can pitch that and let the market go decide which container runtimes they find the most valuable. >> Obviously a lot of traction here in terms of the sentiment around service meshes and pluggable lock-in textures. That's been very cool. But security came up. So I want to get your thoughts around security, obviously storage and these older models around how to deal with storage and networking. Obviously, always in the action. >> Yeah. >> But security is top of mind for everyone. How is that being addressed? You know, talk is out there... >> Sure. I mean our philosophy on this is that moving to cloud-native and particularly the continuous integration and continuous development that goes along with that is the most important step that you can do to help secure your infrastructure. And Equifax is the example everyone always brings up. But there was a case where they were using known insecure software and they didn't have the processes up to place where instead of doing quarterly updates or monthly updates, you want to be doing dozens of updates per day. And a cloud-native infrastructure allows you to do that. >> What's next for you? Because you've got great traction with both community response, and the community has been absolutely amazing, the quality of people, level has been great, but also at the funding sponsors. You've got a lot of people that are involved. What's next? What happens next? What do you envision happening? What's the plan, and then how do you view that evolving? >> Well, I hate to fall into the buzzword implosion here, but if you go back to the crossing the chasm metaphor, I think we're still very much just in the early adopter phase. 2018 could very well be the moment that we jump over to the early majority. And I do feel like this whole community now has the velocity to do that and that we're on track for it. But as that happens, there's just far, far more people who need to be educated so they understand the projects and the options and how to work with them. And then hopefully they go from just being consumers of these technologies to contributors and that we can welcome them into our community and hopefully get the advantage of their expertise as well. >> I want to get your thoughts on a comment that Stu and I were talking about. Stu, you and I were talking about the notion of value creation above the stack, and then how Kubernetes, although some could say being commoditized, but it's also creating value because with that consistency of Kubernetes, you can now create value. So we believe, and I want to get your reaction to this, because we think a whole new ecosystem dynamic will emerge of a new kind of ecosystem. And if this new app developer combined with software engineering, which is really going on, you're talking about the cloud, the app developers will just build in value, that value creation will be rewarded. That's where monetization will be happening. >> And if I could build off that... >> John: Yeah. >> Dan, I loved one of your opening comments. You quoted, "exciting times for boring infrastructure, "maybe too exciting." So this week we've been teasing out there's a lot of work to make that infrastructure boring. You've got everybody on this floor, the CNCF board, lots of new projects making that. Where the action is and what this is going to create is that application monetization and the speed and agility of being able to create these cool new cloud-native applications out there. So it's interesting dynamic, spans broad pieces of this, layers of the stack there. >> Yeah. Well, I will point out that there was an odd level of unanimity of just a ton of different leaders in the community, in keynotes from Craig McLuckie and Chen Goldberg and others where they all agree that Kubernetes is not by any means the ultimate answer or the final answer. I think everybody now expects to see Kubernetes as a core aspect of the infrastructure for software for the next decade or more. But there's a belief that there's a whole ton of value that needs to be added above it, particularly to try and show for a regular application developer who just has a PHP app or no-GS microservices or anything else what's the easiest way to go from having a piece of software and deploying it effectively. >> Dan, so it's interesting. You watch the people on the outside. They're like, oh, look at Kubernetes. They're all holding hands and saying Kumbaya. We know there's some spirited debates that happen- >> Dan: Definitely. >> In the code, some projects that are sometimes competing up there. Why has the community come together, and where are some of the areas that we still need to work on and improve to help customers going forward? >> And again, I think they have the big advantage of having watched other communities that didn't value community and consensus and the ability to work through their issues. And so thankfully, we just have a ton of really capable engineers who also have some of those social or personal qualities that they care about working these things out. And to date, at least, I think most of those disagreements have been settled pretty amicably and in a positive direction. I think there's still huge swathes of this space that are still up in the air. Storage is an obvious one where there's a ton of work going on in a storage working group of CNCF. Serverless is another where I think everyone agrees that the application deployment model of AWS Lambda is really exciting and has things that people should replicate and should be brought over to Kubernetes. But how that should happen, what the software is, et cetera, there's still, in fact, we have our first serverless track today here at KubeCon where several different competing approaches are all talking about what they'd like to do. >> Awesome stuff. And you also announced some dates for next year, December 11 and 13 in Seattle. >> Dan: Yes. >> Okay. >> Dan: That's a year from now. >> November 14 and 15 in Shanghai. >> Now, you and I met in Hangzhou in the lobby, which was just amazing. But I certainly am hoping to convince you to go back to China with us. This will be our first event... >> I got a three-year visa. >> Good, yeah, that's the exactly right one. But this will be our first event in China, which I think is just a huge opportunity. We now have Baidu, Tencent, Huawai, ZTE, a number of startups. There's just so much excitement for this space over there that we're really excited to satisfy. >> Stu: And Copenhagen in May. >> And that's the last one. Thank you. May 2 to 4 in Copenhagen, and we're really excited for the event, to bring it to Europe and the rest of the world. >> Okay. So you've been working like a dog, you've been working hard. I've seen you in China. It's serendipitous. But it's not without being mentioned that this has been great effort by your team and the Linux Foundation and Jim and the whole team. But congratulations. Are you having a pinch me moment? I know it's too early to do a victory lap. >> But you've got to be pretty excited. >> Yeah. It really has been a great thing for the foundation that we sort of accomplished many of our 2018 and 2019 goals this year. But I'm sure we're going to find plenty of stuff to do next year. >> And your goal for the next 6 to 12 months, what's on your top three to-do's, continue the momentum? Share your API for... >> Yeah. What's great is that we really have plenty of members. We'd always like to add new ones and serve the ones we have better. But right now, the focus is really about providing better services to our projects. All of them feel overworked. They would love help on documentation, on marketing, on messaging about it, and some of them need help with testing development and other things. So that's really what we're buckling down on. >> Great community are going to test them, being here on the ground, personally present at creation. And I was standing there with J.J. and Lew Tucker, OpenStack three years ago, talking about Kubernetes. We were kind of ripping. We couldn't have imagined, then, obviously, they bolted it on last year with your event. Now second year here, huge community... >> But you have 4,100 folks here, is more than the previous four events combined. >> Yeah, awesome. >> So it really is exciting. >> TheCUBE, always on the ground. And sometimes the squirrel finds a nut. We found a cloud-native foundation, part of the Linux Foundation. CNCF, Cloud-Native Compute Foundation, really a new, growing, and relevant community for cloud and a new way to do software and reimagine the future from software engineering to full application development, a new way. This is theCUBE's coverage, and we are here live in Austin. More live coverage after this short break. We'll be right back. [Techno Music]

>> Announcer: Live from Austin, Texas, it's theCUBE. Covering Kubecon and CloudNativeCon 2017. Brought to you by Red Hat, The Linux Foundation, and theCUBE's ecosystem partners. >> Hello and welcome back to theCUBE's exclusive coverage of CloudNativeCon and Kubecon for Kubernetes conference. This is the second year, it's really getting large, community's awesome. I'm John Furrier, the co-founder of SiliconANGLE. I'm here with Stu Miniman, Wikibon analyst with SiliconANGLE. Our next guest is Chen Goldberg, engineering director at Google; on stage today, Keynote. Welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you, thank you very much for inviting me. >> We'd love to have Google on... Google is the guard in cloud, you guys are doing a lot of amazing technology, it's fun to watch. It's also fun to watch how Google's handled the Kubernetes evolution. I know it was a hard decision internally from the conversation we had with Craig, back in the day, and Brendan. But really, what a good decision that was, to bring it out into the open, CNCF gets ahold of it, really created a community here, so congratulations. >> Thank you. I think there is more to that than just bringing it to the open and creating a community, it's also about the culture and values. I've started in my Keynote talking about empowerment. But this is really one of the core values of the engineering culture in Google. That anyone can come up with a great idea. So having that thought into the design of Kubernetes with modularity and extensibility is really key. >> And you guys are no stranger to large-scale technology. We've been talking on theCUBE here and certainly for the past year about the democratization with containers and microservices. Really showing a clear path to value, you start to have this accelerated goodness happening in developer community. You've got software engineering happening at levels of the stack, and then you've got really focused application development happening, infrastructurous code. Kind of for the first time, we're starting to see some real cohesiveness there, on both sides. >> We are getting there. I will not say we are there already, but definitely, that's the goal. >> What are you most excited about with Kubernetes here at the show, what are some of the things that you see that's standing out for you in Kubernetes? >> I would say two things. The first one is, if you have noticed, in all the Keynotes, there was a very consistent message coming from all the speakers, regardless of what company they're on. So in my mind, it just shows that the leadership of the Kubernetes community is aligned. We have the same vision in mind. We all know it's just the beginning. We all know that there's more work to do. We all talk about the core: extensibility, and I'm happy to see that. And we all talk about the same values, by the way. Which is also very important. Because I've been an engineering major for many years, and in my mind, the key of building a strong team is with the alignment of the leadership. Once you have that, you can do whatever you want. >> Google has a long history of just building amazing technology. One of the knocks is sometimes the industry is like "Well Google builds really amazing stuff "that only Google people can understand how to use." We've talked to the founder of Kubernetes, and they said "Well, we wanted to help bring some "of that operating model to the world." It sure feels like, at this show, it feels a little bit more Google-y. If I can use the term. What have you been seeing out there? What do you hear when you talk with the community, with customers? >> I think that one thing that helped my team work well with Kubernetes' community is being Google-y, and being humble, and listening, and being pragmatic. You know, there was asked today, at Zig Architecture, a team said that he had to defend of why we are only supporting 100 nodes in the first release of Kubernetes. And they explained that they know how to build for scale, they know how to do it, but realistically, most of users don't need large clusters. So why create this complexity, for example. >> Scale is one of those things that we all bat around as to what scale really means. There's only a handful of customers that have Google type of scale, so what does it mean when you're building these type of technologies? What does scale mean to the community and the customers? Scale. >> From the perspective of the community, what it means? >> Like when Kubernetes, all these projects, you said limit to 100 nodes, I've heard there were some people that... >> So now it's 5000 nodes. >> Okay, 5000. But there have been some alternatives to Kubernetes that said Kubernetes didn't scale big enough, and I've yet to find customers that say that. >> I think, again going to be pragmatic, is what do you do first, and how do you show value when building a product? So when we started, the 100 nodes was sufficient. Today, we support 5000 nodes. Do you want to grow than that, think there are better ways to scale than just improve with nodes? For example, we are supporting, again, part of the vision of Kubernetes is the multi-workloads. Can you take the same cluster and run different type of workloads and then utilize the resources in a more efficient way? Because there's also, of course, the toll of managing different nodes. Scale is on many aspects, you usually think about how you scale your team. This will mean, again, that I think Google is bringing a lot to the community. We have, for example, our SRE team did a talk here in Kubecon on how we are managing our clusters. And how we bring our own experience, and much of the automation of a Kubernetes cluster is built on top of our experience. Saying that, this is also where we differentiate. Our goal is to bring everything we know from Google into the Kubernetes community. The tooling, developer experience, this is what we bring as add on to the Kubernetes. Operational excellence, we do that for you. >> You've done that. You've had great container mindset from day one. Not so much VMs either so you had that microservices vision. When you guys look at building the cloud for customers, we are seeing that customers aren't yet there yet, some are, they seek, they want microservices, but they're still in their old VM worlds of dealing with virtual machines and some bare metal. How is Kubernetes an opportunity for customers? Because they're looking at this announcement, saying "I like Cloud-Native, I like Kubernetes. "This is good for me. "I got to get more developers, I have to port my applications." They're going to need some cloud to go with that. Your thoughts. >> I have many thoughts on that. Definitely we cannot cover that in the time we have. I do believe in containerization and Kubernetes. I do expect that the majority of the workloads, at least in clouds, will be containerized. Saying that, I'm confident that not all of them will be containerized. Which is important to acknowledge. Definitely in building such a platform. I think the first value that Kubernetes brings to those customers is that they can have it on-prem. And it's easy to manage, and with the new set of technologies, like Estio, for example, and our effort to, and a service vocal to be across broader than just Kubernetes, we are allowing them to have a hybrid setting, even within their own prem. So I can manage with Kubernetes, but also have some other workloads. And you can see that much of the obstruction that we are trying to build in the co-ed community. We are trying to make sure that they will be relevant outside of the Kubernetes scope, because we acknowledge that. >> Could you expand on, you were talking about Kubernetes can be both on-premises and the public cloud, obviously Google Cloud has to be a major focus for what you're doing. How do you look at that experience between the data center and the public cloud? I know it's a pretty broad question, but. >> So some things are similar. For example, from tuning perspective and experience, I think that we can, we, and also customers on-prem can achieve a consistent experience whatever they run. Like for example, we have some little customers that are running Kubernetes on the warehouse and in the data centers, and they are happy with that. You can probably not get to zero to one, and you can not just start a new node, so your auto-scaling is different from management prospective. Upgrade, of course other aspects, but the way we are working with some obstructions, we are allowing the vendors in particular to make sure that there is a good foundation to run Kubernetes on-prem. >> And I want to get your thoughts on the questions. So pretend that I bring you into a talk, and in the audience is all these IT, architects, and CIOs, and CDOs, and CSOs, and I raise my hand, I say "And why should I go, I like the vision, "but what does it mean to me? "I have all this stuff." >> Consistency. >> What talk do you give to those folks and saying "Here's what Kubernetes is, here's what "the impact is for you, and here's some of the outcomes you might see if you go down that path." >> I talk about consistency and freedom of choice. I've been working for a long time with IT teams, and also including myself building software. And where we spend most of our money and time... It's not about even building more hollow, it's about educating teams and mobility of engineers. And then there is a new technology or something that takes all of effort to bake into whatever we already have existing, and I think that's the promise for enterprises. Imagine that everything run on Kubernetes. And it's the same Kubernetes everywhere. So how upgrade or application running on Kubernetes will look like. I know how hard it is to do upgrades today. I was in IT department, leading IT department, and that's all that we did. Our annual planning was how we upgrade the middleware and the infrastructure. Q1 we are doing that, Q2, we are doing that. And why? Because it's all very different. And we are trying to get to a place where it's not. I know it's a vision, I know it's a dream. >> ServiceMesh points to this. This is what ServiceMesh can bring. This notion of having this architecture where you can have multiple codebases. >> But it's relying on Kubernetes. It has to have that consistent infrastructure. So that would be one, it would be the consistency between environments. And really the freedom of choice I think is very important, from what I hear from customers. They want to move to cloud in their own pace. They want to move to maybe more than one cloud. So that gives them that ability without being locked-in. >> So we get one piece of the stack that's consistent with Kubernetes, but one of the things we've heard is some people say "It's too complicated", but that's also the opportunity, because every customer can kind of build what they need, you know, build Kubernetes the hard way, and have the adjustments so it's not one solution, a simple kind of homogenous stack, there's a lot of layers there. >> So before you asked me what are the two things that I was most happy seeing here at the con. So the first one was the alignment of the leadership. The other one was the amount of innovation. Like if you look around us, the amount of companies that innovate on top of Kubernetes, I'm super happy about it, like that's a dream come true. >> Two years only, three years maybe. The gestation period's very short. >> Yes. So first of all, Kubernetes is not hard today. Splitting off a cluster is not hard. We did it, we already help fixing that. But there are still harder problems. Talking about developer experience, signing into other environments. We have more things to solve, but it's not just on us. We are building this ecosystem around us that can help you do that. >> One of the things I'm most impressed with this event is, first of all, it's super exciting, great community of smart people really contributing. We had Lifton earlier, I mean just amazing end user, building out scale, donating it, participating. Kind of a new generation of open source is coming. Real, hardcore practitioners who had to build some hard stuff at scale. And you guys, obviously Google's been doing it for many, many years. But now, contributing these gifts. The gifts of open source are, it's amazing. How does someone make, so that means that it's a dream for developers. How do developers make sense of it? If you were a young developer again, just getting into the business, what would you do? How would you attack this? How would you get creative? What would you sink your teeth into? >> So I think two things. So first of all, I think it will change a bit, the industry and the way we innovate. Because I am a believer that the open source pace is faster. That's one thing that we already see, that we have to keep up with everything that is going up in the community. Another thing that I think sometimes we as infrastructure engineers, we forget, this would be boring. There are bigger problems to solve. There are other ways to make the world better. And I would love, as a software engineer, to try and solve those problems. How can we make other processes to have more machine learning? You see my eyes, you see how excited, there's so many more interesting things to solve than this. >> And that's what you guys are enabling. With Kubernetes, that creates an abstraction layer. So I guess the theme going forward is more abstractions and more primitives. Declarative primitives, right? >> Yes. >> We're getting excited here on theCUBE. Chen, you are an inspiration, thanks for coming on theCUBE, I really appreciate it. Keynote was fantastic. >> Thank you very much. >> You had a great shirt on with all the names of all the pioneers and women intact. Certainly awesome to see the great engineering work you guys are doing, congratulations. And of course, we're doing our part, just trying to share that data here, open sourcing the content here on theCUBE at Kubecon and CloudNativeCon. This is theCUBE, I'm John and with Stu. We'll be right back with more live coverage. From Austin, Texas, after this short break. >> Woman: Awesome. (electronic music)

>> Narrator: Live from Austin, Texas, It's theCUBE, covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2017. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Linux Foundation, and theCUBE's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back and we're live here in Austin, Texas. theCUBE's exclusive coverage of CloudNativeCon and KubeCon, which stands for Kubernetes Conference, the not Cube, C-U-B-E, that's us. I'm John Furrier here with Matt Broberg, co-host in here for Stu Miniman, podcaster himself And we also have a special podcaster here on theCUBE, Edaena Salinas, who's the host of The Women in Tech Show @techwomenshow on Twitter, also a software engineer at Microsoft. Welcome to theCUBE, thanks for joining us. >> Thank you for having me. >> This is kind of like a podcast, we're like live though, we're streaming. >> Oh, okay. >> Love your sweater, that's a binary tree holiday tree. >> Binary Christmas tree. >> Binary Christmas tree. >> So perfect. >> I'm going to do a quick sort quickly, no I'm only kidding. So question for you, you've got a great program, you've got a desk over there, you're doing some interviews here, great to see you here doing The Women in Tech. We've done a lot of women in tech interviews on theCUBE, love to showcase women programming, women developers, women in stem, great that you do it so congratulations. So tell us what's the vibe like, are you people excited to do podcasting, is it all women, do you interview men, so tell us a little bit about the show. >> That's a good question. The motivation of the show is to have technical women talk about what they're working on, the products they're building or business strategy, instead of what does it feel like to be a woman in tech, or the only woman in the meeting room. Those conversations are valid, but I think we've heard a lot of those, and the community can benefit if they're just listening to what they're working on. >> It's great to get the education out there. So I have a question for you, I'd love to ask this. But I never really had a, talk about software engineering on theCUBE, what's the style difference in coding, do that's talked about, are women, do they code differently? Is it, probably neater, cleaner, is there biases in coding in that come into, because. >> I'm not aware of (laughs) difference like that, but, you could find that out if you run a script on the GitHub projects but, I don't think it affects. >> People don't, they don't talk about that, do they? >> They don't talk about that, and I certainly haven't experienced anything like that, and I learn from my coworkers and they learn from me. >> Now what are you working on at Microsoft? >> I am at Microsoft Research earlier this year, so what I work on is adding AI features to our existing products, like Outlook and Dynamics, so yeah. >> And I want to switch gears and talk about the podcast a little bit. So, I'm curious what was your inspiration to start it, and had you done podcasts before or did it just feel right, like this is the time to do something? >> I hadn't done a podcast before, but I had listened to a lot of shows. And the initial motivation of this is, at Microsoft where I work, they have this Meet Our Leader series, where they bring men and women in a leadership position. The audience is mostly women, and I was tuning in there by Skype, and there's 200 people listening to them plus people in the room, and they're asking questions about what's our business strategy or technical questions, so I'm like, women want to know about these things, and then in addition to that I noticed some women, technical women, they list on their website, I love giving talks, just not the diversity talk or the lady panel, I've given it several times, I just want to talk about cloud computing or the things that I work on. And then I looked if someone was doing this already, a show like this. I didn't find it, so I started it, and it helped that I listened to other shows. >> I mean I find when I talk to a lot of my women friends that are technical, sometimes CTOs and higher, and even down in programming, they don't want to, they just want to talk about what they're working on. They don't want to be the, that woman in tech on the panel, I've had a friend said to me privately over the weekend at a party, I don't, am sick and tired of being called and them saying, I need a woman on a panel. >> Yeah. >> I mean, it's kind of like a backlash, but they also feel obligated to do it. >> Yeah. There's kind of a new culture developing. Talk about that, and what that kind of conversation's like in your world. >> Well what I've heard, for example Sheryl Sandberg I think has said, there, we will reach a point someday where we won't be called a female CEO or a woman engineer, it would just be engineer. So, that's our goal, to just lose that label at someday, right now, the show has the label because I'm raising awareness of having them talk about technical topics. As more people hear about them, it's just going to be natural and normal like, sure I learned from Nicole about Kubernetes, and then men are also listening to the show, which I think benefits a lot the community. >> I have two daughters, one's in high school, one's in college, one's at Cal, and they're techies, they're science, they like science, not coding yet. Their mom doesn't want them to be like me and code, but, so they're, but they're-- >> Just give them the choice >> I said hey, do you do Cube interviews, it's also an option. But in their culture, when I ask them about this, they're like, we don't think about it. So there's a, at their level, they're all in school together and it's interesting, I think a time is coming now where the awareness is putting the old guard pressures away, there's still some bad behavior, no doubt about it, I see it everyday and it's being called out, thank god, but now it's just like, you're a person in tech. >> Exactly. >> So I think respect is the number one, respect for the individual is something that we always preach, independent of who the person is, male, female, whatever. >> Yeah, exactly, and we will reach that point soon, I hope so, where we lose the label. >> So you're 77 episodes in, I'm also a listener, I learned a ton from it, you have brilliant people on every week. I really admire you for that because I know how hard it is to produce a podcast. What are some of the things you didn't know before starting a podcast that like, oh wow, that takes more energy than it looked like at the time. >> That's a good point, yes. The very first few interviews that I did, I didn't take into account how the guest would respond. So I prepared the questions in advance, and then I would think, this is going to be a two-minute answer, but the person just ended up saying yes, no, or sure, that's a big problem, and I was counting on it to be more, so I needed to prepare in that aspect and what helps is just, if they've already given talks, just look them up on YouTube or find all their interviews they've done, just to get a sense of how they talk. There's also people that tend to give super long answers, and you need to prepare for that, how you're going to handle it. >> I noticed you had someone from Bitnami came by recently, was that Erica? >> Erica Brescia came on the show a few months ago, the COO of Bitnami, and in that episode we focused a lot on entrepreneurship, she came out of YC, so sort of building Bitnami to where it is, and today I interviewed the engineering manager of Bitnami, and she talked about Kube apps and all this security aspects. >> What are some of the innovations you're seeing in your interviews? Can you highlight some examples recently that jump out at you, that are, lot of innovation coming from these ladies, what are some of things that they've done? Shine the light on some of the awesome highlights from your guests. >> One of my favorite ones is Rachel Thomas, she works at Fast.ai, what she works on is bias in machine learning. Machine learning is about learning from your data, but I've heard, this woman at a conference bring it up, like, if I'm a minority, I'm a minority in the data. So you need to take that into account. So there's a lot of people working in the space. That was a really cool project I think. >> Data driven analysis. >> Yeah, but sort of, considering that bias that can be in that data, and make sure your data is better. So for example, it's a known fact that there's a lot of men in the technology field, so if you're going to get job recommendations, if a person like me, Mexican, I studied computer science but if I'm a minority in the dataset, maybe I'm not going to get the recommendation. I'm not saying that how it works, but that could potentially be an issue. >> It's a statistical fact. >> Yeah, but if you don't take that into account in your system, maybe women are not getting job recommendations, of openings. >> That's a good point. >> So, it brings up-- >> That's a really powerful observation, right, and I was curious, as a software engineer, software engineering is your craft and podcasting is your hobby, how has podcasting influenced your software engineering skills? Because ultimately that's the path you're going down career-wise. >> Well a big part of software engineering is about talking to your team and going to meetings, talking about solutions. Podcasting has help me a lot, improve my soft skills. For a period of time I was editing my own shows. One thing that I noticed is when I was talking to my guests, I'm listening to my recording, when I would say an idea, I would tend to lower my voice. So I noticed that, and then I said to myself, I'm probably doing this in the meetings at work, and then, I work-- >> What an amazing insight, right, like now you're seeing how you're presenting yourself in front of other people in technical ways and then you get to bring that into your work. >> Yeah, whenever I would say an idea I would just be like, what happens if we do this instead? That was like I have to-- >> That's a great example of self-awareness, right, I mean, everyone should do that, listen to their, look at their actions. >> Yes, so it helps with the soft skills. And it also helps if you're working in a certain area of software engineering, and you want to find out more about it, you can decide to do more shows on that and just share that with the community that women are working on this. >> It's great to see you have some Cube alumni like Erica on, we interviewed her on theCUBE at Google Next a few years ago. Share some coordinates, when does the show go out, when do you record it, does it ship on a regular cadence, share a little information. >> The show is released weekly. I publish Monday evenings, but I share it on social media on Tuesday mornings, so if you're subscribed, you would get it Monday evenings. >> Good for the week, running, on the bike, in the car. >> It's 30 minutes. >> Any video podcasting coming? >> I don't have any video, no. >> Lot more editing required, trust me on that one. Cool. What's the most exciting thing that you're working on right now? You have the podcast, which is a super cool hobby, great to get those voices out there, so congratulations. But at work, what are you working on? >> Yes, well like I mentioned earlier, I work on a team it's a team under Microsoft Research, a lot of it, we don't know what people working on there, but, my team works closely with product teams. So we're adding AI features to Outlook and Dynamics CRM. Just to increase the productivity aspect, in this sense. >> So you're bringing applied R and D to the product groups, mostly AI? >> Yes, yeah. >> What's the coolest thing in AI that you like? >> Oh wow, well I really like recommendation systems and things like that. >> All right, well thanks for coming on theCUBE, really appreciate it, The Tech Women podcast here, they got a booth over there. Doing great interviews, here's at theCUBE we're doing our share. Two days, the second day of live wall to wall coverage. Be right back with more live coverage, in Austin Texas. You here the music, this is the big D, Texas here in Austin Texas. More live coverage, that's Dallas, we're in Austin. Be right back with more live coverage after this short break. (futuristic music)

>> Announcer: Live from Austin, Texas, it's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2017. Brought to you by: Red Hat, the Linux Foundation, and theCUBE's ecosystem partners. >> Hey, welcome back everyone. And we're live here in Austin, Texas. This is theCUBE's exclusive coverage of the Cloud Native conference and KubeCon for Kubernetes Conference. This is for the Linux Foundation. This is theCUBE. I'm John Furrier, the co-founder of Silicon ANGLE Media. My co, Stu Miniman. Our next guest is Dustin Kirkland Vice-President of product. The Ubuntu, Canonical, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you, John. >> So you're the product guy. You get the keys to the kingdom, as they would say in the product circles. Man, what a best time to be-- >> Dustin: They always say that. I don't think I've heard that one. >> Well, the product guys are, well all the action's happening on the product side. >> Dustin: We're right in the middle of it. >> Cause you got to have a road map. You got to have a 20 mile steer on the next horizon while you go up into the pasture and deliver value, but you always got to be watching for it always making decision on what to do, when to ship product, not you got the Cloud things are happening at a very accelerated rate. And then you got to bring it out to the customers. >> That's right. >> You're livin' on both sides of the world You got to look inside, you got to look outside. >> All three. There's the marketing angle too. which is what we're doing here right now. So there's engineering sales and this is the marketing. >> Alright so where are we with this? Because now you guys have always been on the front lines of open source. Great track record. Everyone knows the history there. What are the new things? What's the big aha moment that this event, largest they've had ever. They're not even three years old. Why is this happening? >> I love seeing these events in my hometown Austin, Texas. So I hope we keep coming back. The aha moment is how application development is fundamentally changing. Cloud Native is the title of the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and CloudNativeConference here. What does Cloud Native mean? It's a different form of writing applications. Just before we were talking about systems programing right? That's not exactly Cloud Native. Cloud Native programming is writing to API's that are Cloud exposed API's, integrating with software as a service. Creating applications that have no intelligence, whatsoever, about what's underneath them, Right? But taking advantage of that and all the ways that you would want and expect in a modern application. Fault tolerance, automatic updates, hyper security. Just security, security, security. That is the aha moment. The way applications are being developed is fundamentally changing. >> Interesting perspective we had on earlier. Lew Tucker from Cisco, (mumbles) in the (mumbles) History Museum, CTO at Cisco, and we have Kelsey Hightower co-chair for this conference and also very active in the community. Yet, in the perspective, and I'll over simplify and generalize it, but basically was: Hey, that's been going on for 30 years, it's just different now. Tell us the old way and new way. Because the old way, you kind of describing it you're going to build your own stuff, full stack, building all parts of the stack and do a lot of stuff that you didn't want to do. And now you have more, especially time on your hands if DevOps and infrastructure as code starts to happen. But doesn't mean that networking goes away, doesn't mean storage goes away, that some new lines are forming. Describe that dynamic of what's new and the new way what changes from the old way? >> Virtualization has brought about a different way of thinking about resources. Be those compute resources, chopping CPU's up into virtual CPU's, that's KVM ware. You mentioned network and storage. Now we virtualized both of those into software defined storage and software defined networking, right? We have things like OpenStack that brings that all together from an infrastructure perspective. and we now have Kubernetes that brings that to fare from an application perspective. Kubernetes helps you think about applications in a different way. I said that paradigm has changed. It's Kubernetes that helps implement that paradigm. So that developers can write an application to a container orchestrator like Kubernetes and take advantage of many of the advances we've made below that layer in the operating system and in the Cloud itself. So from that perspective the game has changed and the way you write your application is not the same as a the monolithic app we might have written on an IBM or a traditional system. >> Dustin, you say monolithic app versus oh my gosh the multi layered cake that we have today. We were talking about the keynote this morning where CNCF went from four projects to 14 projects, you got Kubernetes, You got things like DSDU on top. Help up tease that a little bit. What are the ones that, where's canonical engaged? What are you hearing from customers? What are they excited about? What are they still looking for? >> In a somewhat self-serving way, I'll use this opportunity to explain exactly what we do in helping build that layered cake. It starts with the OS. We provide a great operating system, Ubuntu that every developer would certainly know and understand and appreciate. That's the kernel, that's the systemd, that's the hyperviser, that's all the storage and drivers that makes an operating system work well on hardware. Lot's of hardware, IBM, Dell HP, Intel, all the rest. As well as in virtual machines, the public Clouds, Microsoft, Amazon, Google, VM ware and others. So, we take care of that operating system perspective. Within the CNCF and within in the Kubernetes ecosystem, It really starts with the Kubernetes distribution. So we provide a Kubernetes distribution, we call it Canonicals Distribution of Kubernetes, CDK. Which is open source Kubernetes with security patches applied. That's it. No special sauce, no extra proprietary extensions. It is open source Kubernetes. The reference platform for open source Kubernetes 100% conformed. Now, once you have Kubernetes as you say, "What are you hearing from customers?" We hear a lot of customers who want a Kubernetes. Once they have a Kubernetes, the next question is: "Now what do I do with it?" If they have applications that their developers have been writing to Google's Kubernetes Engine GKE, or Amazon's Kubernetes Engine, the new one announced last week at re:Invent, AKS. Or Microsoft's Kubernetes Engine, Microsoft-- >> Microsoft's AKS, Amazons EKS. A lot of TLA's out there, always. >> Thank you for the TLA dissection. If you've written the applications already having your own Kubernetes is great, because then your applications simply port and run on that. And we help customers get there. However, if you haven't written your first application, that's where actually, most of the industry is today. They want a Kubernetes, but they're not sure why. So, to that end, we're helping bring some of the interesting workloads that exists, open source workloads and putting those on top of Canonical Kubernetes. Yesterday, we press released a new product from Canonical, launched in conjunction with our partners at Rancher Labs, Which is the Cloud Native platform. The Cloud Native platform is Ubuntu plus Kubernetes plus Rancher. That combination, we've heard from customers and from users of Ubuntu inside and out. Everyone's interested in a developer work flow that includes open-source Ubuntu, open-source Kubernetes and open-source Rancher, Which really accelerates the velocity of development. And that end solution provides exactly that and it helps populate, that Kubernetes with really interesting workloads. >> Dustin, so we know Sheng, Shannon and the team, they know a thing or two about building stacks with open source. We've talked with you many times, OpenStack. Give us a little bit of compare and contrast, what we've been doing with OpenStack with Canonical, very heavily involved, doing great there versus the Cloud Native stacking. >> If you know Shannon and Sheng, I think you can understand and appreciate why Mark, myself and the rest of the Canonical team are really excited about this partnership. We really see eye-to-eye on open source principles First. Deliver great open source experiences first. And then taking that to market with a product that revolves around support. Ultimately, developer option up front is what's important, and some of those developer applications will make its way into production in a mission critical sense. Which open up support opportunities for both of us. And we certainly see eye-to-eye from that perspective. What we bring to bare is Ubuntu ecosystem of developers. The Ubuntu OpenStack infrastructure is a service where we've seen many of the world's largest organizations deploying their OpenStacks. Doing so on Ubuntu and with Ubuntu OpenStacks. With the launch of Kubernetes and Canonical Kubernetes, many of those same organizations are running their own Kubernetes along side OpenStack. Or, in some cases, on top of OpenStack. In a very few cases, instead of Openstack, in very special cases, often at the Edge or in certain tiny Cloud or micro Cloud scenarios. In all of these we see Rancher as a really, really good partner in helping to accelerate that developer work flow. Enabling developers to write code, commit code to GitHub repository, with full GitHub integration. Authenticate against an active directory with full RBAC controls. Everything that you would need in an enterprise to bring that application to bare from concept, to development, to test into production, and then the life cycle, once it gains its own life in production. >> What about the impact of customers? So, I'm an IT guy or I'm an architect and man, all this new stuff's comin' at me. I love my open source, I'm happy with space. I don't want to touch it, don't want to break it, but I want to innovate. This whole world can be a little bit noisy and new to them. How do you have that conversation with that potential customer or customer where you say, Look, we can get there. Use your app team here's what you want to shape up to be, here's service meshes and plugable, Whoa plugable (mumbles)! So, again, how do you simplify that when you have conversations? What's the narrative? What's the conversation like? >> Usually our introduction into the organization of a Fortune 500 company is by the developers inside of that company who already know Ubuntu. Who already have some experience with Kubernetes or have some experience with Rancher or any of those other-- >> So it's a bottoms up? >> Yeah, it's bottoms up. Absolutely, absolutely. The developer network around Ubuntu is far bigger than the organization that is Canonical. So that helps us with the intro. Once we're in there, and the developers write those first few apps, we do get the introductions to their IT director who then wants that comfy blanket. Customer support, maybe 24 by seven-- >> What's the experience like? Is it like going to the airport, go through TSA, and you got to take your shoes off, take your belt off. What kind of inspection, what is kind of is the culture because they want to move fast, but they got to be sure. There's always been the challenge when you have the internal advocate saying, "Look, if we want to go this way "this is going to be more the reality for companies." Developers are now major influencers. Not just some, here's the product we made a decision and they ship it to 'em, it's shifted. >> If there's one thing that I've learned in this sort of product management assignment, I'm a engineer by trade, but as a product manager now for almost five years, is that you really have to look at the different verticals and some verticals move at vastly different paces than other verticals. When we are in the tele close phase, We're in RFI's, requests for a quote or a request for information that may last months, nine months. And then go through entering into a procurement process that may last another nine months. And we're talking about 18 months in an industry here that is spinning up, we're talking about how fast this goes, which is vastly different than the work we do in Silicon Valley, right? With some of the largest dot-coms in the world that are built on Ubuntu, maybe an AWS or else where. Their adoption curve is significantly different and the procurement angle is really different. What they're looking to buy often on the US West Coast is not so much support, but they're looking to guide your roadmap. We offer for customers of that size and scale a different set of products something we call feature sponsorships, where those customers are less interested in 24 by seven telephone support and far more interested in sponsoring certain features into Ubuntu itself and helping drive the Ubuntu roadmap. We offer both of those a products and different verticals buy in different ways. We talked to media and entertainment, and the conversation's completely different. Oil and gas, conversation's completely different. >> So what are you doing here? What's the big effort at CloudNativeCon? >> So we've got a great booth and we're talking about Ubuntu as a pretty universal platform for almost anything you're doing in the Cloud. Whether that's on frame infrastructure as a service, OpenStack. People can coo coo OpenStack and point OpenStack versus Kubernetes against one another. We cannot see it more differently-- >> Well no I think it's more that it's got clarity on where the community's lines are because apps guys are moving off OpenStack that's natural. It's really found the home, OpenStack very relevant huge production flow, I talk to Johnathon Bryce about this all the time. There's no co cooing OpenStack. It's not like it's hurting. Just to clarify OpenStack is not going anywhere its just that there's been some comments about OpenStack refugees going to (mumbles), but they're going there anyway! Do you agree? >> Yeah I agree, and that choice is there on Ubuntu. So infrastructure is a service, OpenStack's a fantastic platform, platforms as a service or Cloud Native through Cloud Native development Kubernetes is an excellent platform. We see those running side by side. Two racks a systems or a single rack. Half of those machines are OpenStack, Half of those are Kubernetes and the same IT department manages both. We see IT departments that are all in OpenStack. Their entire data center is OpenStack. And we see Kubernetes as one workload inside of that Openstack. >> How do you see Kubernetes impact on containers? A lot of people are coo cooing containers. But they're not going anywhere either. >> It's fundamental. >> The ecosystem's changing, certainly the roles of each part (mumbles) is exploding. How do you talk about that? What's your opinion on how containers are evolving? >> Containers are evolving, but they've been around for a very long time as well. Kubernetes has helped make containers consumable. And doctored to an extent, before that the work we've done around Linux containers LXE LEXT as well. All of those technologies are fundamental to it and it take tight integration with the OS. >> Dustin, so I'm curious. One of the big challenges I have the U face is the proliferation of deployments for customers. It's not just data center or even Cloud. Edge is now a very big piece of it. How do you think that containers helps enable the little bit of that Cloud Native goes there, but what kind of stresses does that put on your product organization? >> Containers are adding fuel to the fire on both the Edge and the back end Cloud. What's exciting to me about the Edge is that every Edge device, every connected device is connected to something. What's it connected to, a Cloud somewhere. And that can be an OpenStack Cloud or a Kubernetes Cloud, that can be a public Cloud, that could be a private implementation of that Cloud. But every connected device, whether its a car or a plane or a train or a printer or a drone it's connected to something, it's connected to a bunch of services. We see containers being deployed on Ubuntu on those Edge devices, as the packaging format, as the application format, as the multi-tendency layer that keeps one application from DOSing or attacking or being protected from another application on that Edge device. We also see containers running the micro services in the Cloud on Ubuntu there as well. The Edge to me, is extremely interesting in how it ties back to the Cloud and to be transparent here, Canonical strategy and Canonical's play is actually quiet strong here with Ubuntu providing quite a bit of consistency across those two layers. So developers working on those applications on those devices, are often sitting right next to the developers working on those applications in the Cloud and both of them are seeing Ubuntu helping them go faster. >> Bottom line, where do you see the industry going and how do you guys fit into the next three years, what's your prediction? >> I'm going to go right back to what I was saying right there. That the connection between the Edge and the Cloud is our angle right there, and there is nothing that's stopping that right now. >> We were just talking with Joe Beda and our view is if it's a shoot and computing world, everything's an Edge. >> Yeah, that's right. That's exactly right. >> (mumbles) is an Edge. A light in a house is an Edge with a processor in it. >> So I think the data centers are getting smarter. You wanted a prediction for next year: The data center is getting smarter. We're seeing autonomous data centers. We see data centers using metals as a service mask to automatically provision those systems and manage those systems in a way that hardware look like a Cloud. >> AI and IOT, certainly two topics that are really hot trends that are very relevant as changing storage and networking those industries have to transform. Amazon's tele (mumbles), everything like LAN and serverless, you're starting to see the infrastructure as code take shape. >> And that's what sits on top of Kubernetes. That's what's driving Kubernetes adoption are those AI machine learning artificial intelligence workloads. A lot of media and transcoding workloads are taking advantage of Kubernetes everyday. >> Bottom line, that's software. Good software, smart software. Dustin, Thanks so much for coming theCube. We really appreciate it. Congratulations. Continued developer success. Good to have a great ecosystem. You guys have been successful for a very long time. As the world continues to be democratized with software as it gets smarter more pervasive and Cloud computing, grid computing, Unigrid. Whatever it's called it is all done by software and the Cloud. Thanks for coming on. It's theCube live coverage from Austin, Texas, here at KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2017. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman, We'll be back with more after this short break. (lively music)

>> Announcer: Live from Austin Texas, it's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2017. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Linux Foundation, and theCUBE's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, this is SiliconANGLE Media's live coverage wall to wall of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon here in Austin, Texas. Got the house banner rocking all day. I'm Stu Miniman, happy to be joined on the program, Dan Walsh who's a consulting engineering with Red Hat. Rocking the red hat, Dan thanks so much for joining us. >> Pleasure to be here. >> Alright so we've, you know Red Hat has a strong presence at the show, we had Clayton on yesterday, top contributor, won an award actually for all the contribution he's done here. Going through a lot of angles. Why don't you start with, tell us kind of your role, what you've been doing at Red Hat. >> So at Red Hat I'm a consulting engineer, which basically means I lead a team of about 20 engineers, and we work on the base operating system. Basically anything to do with containers from the operating system on down. So kernel engineers. But everything underneath Kubernetes. So traditionally for the last four and a half years I've been working on the Docker Project as well as other container type efforts. We've added things like file system support, Docker, lots of kernel changes, lots of, you know we're working forever on usernames base things like that. More recently though we've been working, we started to work on sort of one of the, well OpenShift and Kubernetes were built on top of Docker originally, and they found over time that the Docker base was changing in ways that were continuously breaking Kubernetes. So about a year and a half ago we start to work on a project called Crio. So a little history is if you go back, Kubernetes was originally built on top of Docker. But core OS came to Kubernetes and wanted to get rocket support into Kubernetes. And rather than add rocket support, Kubernetes decided to find this interface. Basically a CRI, container runtime interface, which is an API that they would call out to to run containers. So rocket could build a container runtime interface, they actually built a shim for the Docker API. But we decided at that time to basically build our own one, and we called it Crio. So it's container runtime interface for OCI images. So the plan was to build a very minimalist daemon that could support Kubernetes, and Kubernetes alone. So we don't support any other orchestrations or anything else. It's totally based on Kubernetes CRI. So our versioning matches up with Kubernetes. So Kubernetes one dot eight, you got Crio one dot eight. Kubernetes one dot nine, you got Crio one dot nine. >> So Dan we've been talking about this. You know Red Hat made a pretty strong bet on Kubernetes relatively early in there. Red Hat, very open, everything you do is 100% open source. Why for Crio, why only Kubernetes? There's other orchestrations out there that are open source. >> Well let's take a step back. So one of our goals in my group was to take, sort of what does it mean to run a container. So if you think about when I run a container, what do I need? I need a standard container image format, so there's the OCI image bundle format that defines that. The next thing I need is the ability to pull an image from a container registry to the host. So we built a library called containers image that actually implements all of the capabilities of moving containers back and forth around, but basically at a Command Line or a library level. We built a tool on top of that called Scopio, which allows us to basic Command Line, I can move from one container registry to another, I can move container registries to different kinds of storage. I can move directly from a container registry into a Docker daemon. So we have a, so the next step you need when you want to run a container is storage. So you need to take that container image and put in on disk. And in the case of containers you do that on top of what's called the copy and write file system. So you need to be able to have a layering file system. So we created another project called container storage that allows you to basically store those images on storage. The last step for running a container is actually to launch an OCI runtime. So we, OCI runtime specification and run c takes care of that. So we have the four building components for what it means to run a container separate. So we're building other tools around that, but we built one too that was focused on Kubernetes. And again, the reason Red Hat bet on Kubernetes is we felt that they had the best longterm potential, and judging by this show I think we made a sane bet. But we will work with others. I mean these are all fully open source projects. We actually have contributors coming in that are contributing at these low level tools. For instance pivotal is a major contributor in container image. And they're using it for pulling images into their base. We have other products that projects are using, and so it's just not Kubernetes. It's just Crio is a daemon for Kubernetes. >> Yeah Dan it's really interesting. You listen in Clayton's keynote this morning. He talked about one of the goals you have at Red Hat is making that underlying infrastructure boring so that everything about it can rely on it, and works on. There's a lot of work that goes on under there. So it's like, the plumbers and the mechanics down underneath making sure it all works. >> A lot of times when I give talks, the number one thing I'm always trying to teach people is that containers are not anything really significantly different. Containers are just processes on a Linux system. So if you booted up a regular REL system right now, and you looked at Pid One of a system. Let me take a step back, I define containers as being something that has, c groups associated with a resource constraints, it has some security constraints associated with it, and it has these things called name spaces, which is a virtualization layer that gives you a different view of the processes. If you looked at every process on a Linux system, they all c groups associated with them, they all have security constraints associated with them, and they all have name spaces associated with. So if you went to Pid One, if you went to slash proc Pid One slash NS you would see the name spaces associated with Pid One. So that means that every process on Linux is in a container. By the definition of a container being those three things. And all that happens on the system is you toggle those. So you can tighten them or change some of the name space and stuff like that, and that gives you the feel of the virtualization. But bottom line is they're all containers. So all the tools like Docker, rocket, Crio, run c, or any one of those tools are all just basically going into the kernel, configuring the kernel, and then launching the Pid One on the system. And from that point on it's just a kernel that's taking 'em. We at Red Hat has a t-shirt that we often wear that says Linux is containers and containers is Linux. And that actually proves the point. So bottom line is you know the operating system is key, and my team and the developers I work with, and the open source community is all about how can we make containers better? How can we further constrain these processes? How can we create new name spaces? How can we create new c groups, new stuff like that? So it's all low level stuff. >> Dan, you know give us some flavor as to some of the customer conversations you're having at the show here. Where are they? I mean we know it's a spectrum of where they are, but what are some of the commonalities that you're hearing? >> I mean at Red Hat our customers run the gamut. So you know we have customers who can barely get off a rel five which came out 12 years ago. Two sort of the leading edge customers. And the funny thing is a lot of these are in the some companies. So most of our customers at this point are just beginning to move into the container world. You know they might have a few containers running, or they had their developers insisting, hey this container stuff cool I want to start playing with it. But getting them from that step to the step of say Kubernetes, or to get them to step with OpenShift, is sort of a big leap. My fear with a lot of this is a lot of people are concentrating too much on the containers. You know the bottom line is what people need to do is develop applications. And secure applications. My history is very based in heavy security. So really we face a lot of customers who sort of have home grown environments. And their engineers come in and say oh I want to do a Docker build, or I want to talk to the Docker socket. And I always look at that and question, you know you're supposed to be building apps, you're building banking apps, or you're building military apps, you're building medical apps. They should be concentrating on that and not so much on the containers. And that's actually the beauty of OpenShift. You can set up OpenShift workloads in such a way that their interaction to build a container is just a Git check it. And it's not, you don't have to go out and understand what it means to build a container. You don't have to get the knowledge of what it means to be able to build a container and things like that. >> Dan you bring up a really good point. At this show most of the customers I'm talking about, it's really about the speed for them to be able to deliver on the applications. Yes there's the people building all the tooling, and the projects here, and there's many customers that are involved with it. But we've gone further up the stack where it's closer to the application, less to that underlying infrastructure. >> And the other thing customers are looking for, in my case, as I said I have a strong background in security, I did SE Linux for like 13 years. Most of my time talking to customers is about security, and how can we actually confine containers, how do we keep them under control, and especially when they go to multi tenancy. And some good things, I don't know if you're going to talk to Kata? Have you heard about the Kata project? >> So we've talked to a couple people, Kata coming out of the open-- >> Clear containers and-- >> Yeah clear container of the intel. >> Yeah and I think that those, getting to those levels of using hardware isolation, it really helps out in-- >> It's interesting because actually, you know when first looking at, it's like wait it's kind of a lightweight VM, it's a container. Where does that fit in? >> They're really just containers, 'cause they're not, a lightweight VM would be actually booting up like an init system and running logging and all these other things. So like a Kata container or, I'm more familiar with clear containers. A clear container is literally just running a very small init system and then it launches run c to run, actually start up the container. So it has almost no operating system inside of the lightweight VM. As opposed to running just regular virtual machines. >> Dan would love your take on, you know you talked about security. Security of containers, the role of security in the cloud native space. What are you seeing, and what do we need to work on even more as an industry? >> It's funny because my world view is at a much lower level than other security people that we talk to. There's other security people that'll be looking at sort of network isolation and role based access control inside of Kubernetes. I look at it as basically multi tenancy. So running multiple containers with different workloads, and what happens if one container gets hacked, how does that affect the other containers that are running and how do I protect the services? So over the years when we've been working with Docker, I got SE Linux support in, we've gotten Setcom support in. We're trying to take advantage of everything in the Linux kernel to further tighten the security. But the bottom line is a process inside of the container is talking to the real kernel on the host. Any vulnerability in the host kernel could lead to an escalation and a breakout. So that's why no matter what you say, a hyper, like a hyper shell, a separate container running inside of a VM is always going to be more secure. But that being, on the other hand, containers in a lot of cases you want to have some interaction. If you go all the way to VM you get really bad isolation. So you really have to cover the gamut. So a lot of times I'll tell people to look at containers as being, they're not a zero sum game. You don't have to throw away all your VMs to move to containers. I tell people the most secure way to run a application is separate physical hardware. The second most is on VM. So the third most is inside a container. And then you can go on to all down the line. But there's nothing to say that you can't run your containers inside of separate VMs, inside of separate physical machines. So you can set up your environment in such a way. Say you have your web front end sitting inside of VMs inside of (mumbles) zone on separate physical hardware you setup your databases or your credit card data on separate physical machines, separate VMs, and separate containers inside of it. So you can build up these really high levels of security based on containers, virtualization, and physical hardware. I can go on forever on this stuff. >> Dan Walsh, really appreciate sharing some of the ways that Red Hat's trying to help some of those underlying pieces become boring. So the customers won't have to worry about. >> That's really what it's about. If you know what's going on at the host level then I haven't done my job. So our goal is to basically take that host level, and make it disappear. And you can work with your higher level orchestration level. >> Well Dan, it's great to catch up with you, thanks so much for joining us. We'll be back with lots more coverage here from KubeCon 2017 in Austin, Texas. I'm Stu Miniman and you're watching theCUBE. (electronic music)

>> Narrator: Live from Austin Texas. It's theCUBE, covering KubeKon and CloudNativeCon 2017. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Linux Foundation, and theCUBE's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back everyone, live here in Austin Texas, theCUBE's exclusive coverage of CloudNativeConference and KubeKon, for Kubernetes' Conference. I'm John Furrier, co-founder of SiliconANGLE and my co-host Stu Miniman, our analyst. And next is Matt Klein, a software engineer at Lyft, ride-hailing service, car sharing, social network, great company, everyone knows that everyone loves Lyft. Thanks for coming on. >> Thanks very much for having me. >> All right so you're a customer of all this technology. You guys built, and I think this is like the shiny use cases of our generation, entrepreneurs and techies build their own stuff because they can't get product from the general market. You guys had a large-scale demand for the service, you had to go out and build your own with open source and all those tools, you had a problem you had to solve, you build it, used some open source and then give it back to open source and be part of the community, and everybody wins, you donated it back. This is, this is the future, this is what it's going to be like, great community work. What problem were you solving? Obviously Lyft, everyone knows it's hard, they see their car, lot of real time going on, lot of stuff happening >> Matt: Yeah, sure. >> magic's happening behind the scenes, you had to build that. Talk about the problem you solved. >> Well, I think, you know, when people look at Lyft, like you were saying, they look at the app and the car, and I think many people think that it's a relative simple thing. Like how hard could it be to bring up your app and say, I want a ride, and you know, get that car from here to there, but it turns out that it's really complicated. There's a lot of real-time systems involved in actually finding what are all the cars that are near you, and what's the fastest route, all of that stuff. So, I think what people don't realize is that Lyft is a very large, real-time system that, at current scale, operates at millions of requests per second, and has a lot of different use cases around databases, and caching, you know, all those technologies. So, Lyft was built on open source, as you say, and, you know Lyft grew from what I think most companies do, which is a very simple, monolithic stack, you know, it starts with a PHP application, we're a big user of MongoDB, and some load balancer, and then, you know-- >> John: That breaks (laughs) >> Well, well no but but people do that because that's what's very quick to do. And I think what happened, like most companies, is, or that most companies that become very successful, is Lyft grew a lot, and like the few companies that can become very successful, they start to outgrow some of that basic software, or the basic pieces that they're actually using. So, as Lyft started to grow a lot, things just didn't actually start working, so then we had to start fixing and building different things. >> Yeah, Matt, scale is one of those things that gets talked about a lot. But, I mean Lyft, you know, really does operate at a significant scale. >> Matt: Yeah, sure. >> Maybe you can talk a little bit about, you know, what kind of things were breaking, >> Matt: Absolutely, yeah, and then what led to Envoy and why that happened. >> Yeah, sure. I mean, I think there's two different types of scale, and I think this is something that people don't talk about enough. There's scale in terms of things that people talk about, in terms of data throughput or requests per second, or stuff like that. But there's also people scale, right. So, as organizations grow, we go from 10 developers to 50 developers to 100, where Lyft is now many hundreds of developers and we're continuing to grow, and what I think people don't talk about enough is the human scale, so you know, so we have a lot of people that are trying to edit code, and at a certain size, that number of people, you can't all be editing on that same code base. So that's I think the biggest move where people start moving towards this microservice or service-oriented architecture, so you start splitting that apart to get people-scale. People-scale probably usually comes with requests per second scale and data scale and that kind of stuff. But these problems come hand in hand, where as you grow the number of people, you start going into microservices, and then suddenly you have actual scale problems. The database is not working, or the network is not actually reliable. So from Envoy perspective, so Envoy is an open source proxy we built at Lyft, it's now part of CNCF, it's having tremendous uptake across the industry, which is fantastic, and the reason that we built Envoy is what we're seeing now in the industry is people are moving towards polyglot architectures, so they're moving towards architectures with many different applications, or many different languages. And it used to be that you could use Java and you could have one particular library that would do all of your networking and service discovery and load balancing, and now you might have six different languages. So how as an organization do you actually deal with that? And what we decided to do was build an out-of-process proxy, which allows people to build a lot of functionality into one place, around load balancing, and service discovery, and rate limiting, and buffering, and all those kinds of things, and also most importantly, observability. So things like tracing and stats and logging. And that allowed us to actually understand what was going on in the network, so that when problems were happening, we could actually debug what was going on. And what we saw at Lyft, about three years ago, is we had started our microservices journey, but it was actually almost, it was almost stopped, because what people found is they had started to build services because supposedly it was faster than the monolith, but then we would start having problems with tail latency and other things, and they didn't know hot to debug it. So they didn't trust those services, and then at that point they say, not surprisingly, we're just going to go back and we're going to build it back into the monolith. So, we're almost in that situation where things are kind of in that split. >> So Matt I have to think that's the natural, where you led to service mesh, and Istio specifically and Lyft, Google, IBM all working on that. Talk a little bit about, more about what Istio, it was really the buzz coming in with service mesh, there's also there's some competing offerings out there, Conduit, new one announced this week, maybe give us the landscape, kind of where we are, and what you're seeing. >> So I think service mesh is, it's incredible to look around this conference, I think there's 15 or more talks on service mesh between all of the Buoyant talks on Linker D and Conduit and Istio and Envoy, it's super fantastic. I think the reason that service mesh is so compelling to people is that we have these problems where people want to build in five or six languages, they have some common problems around load balancing and other types of things, and this is a great solution for offloading some of those problems into a common place. So, the confusion that I see right now around the industry is service mesh is really split into two pieces. It's split into the data plane, so the proxy, and the control plane. So the proxy's the thing that actually moves the bytes, moves the requests, and the control plane is the thing that actually tells all the proxies what to do, tells it the topology, tells it all the configurations, all the settings. So the landscape right now is essentially that Envoy is a proxy, it's a data plane. Envoy has been built into a bunch of control planes, so Istio is a control plane, it's reference proxy is Envoy, though other companies have shown that they can integrate with Istio. Linker D has shown that, NGINX has shown that. Buoyant just came out with a new combined control plane data plane service mesh called Conduit, that was brand new a couple days ago, and I think we're going to see other companies get in there, because this is a very popular paradigm, so having the competition is good. I think it's going to push everyone to be better. >> How do companies make sense of this, I mean, if I'm just a boring enterprise with complexity, legacy, you know I have a lot of stuff, maybe not the kind of scale in terms of transactions per second, because they're not Lyft, but they still have a lot of stuff. They got servers, they got data center, they got stuff in the cloud, they're trying to put this cloud native package in because the developer movement is clearly pushing the legacy guy, old guard, into cloud. So how does your stuff translate into the mainstream, how would you categorize it? >> Well, what I counsel people is, and I think that's actually a problem that we have within the industry, is that I think sometimes we push people towards complexity that they don't necessarily need yet. And I'm not saying that all of these cloud native technologies aren't great, right, I mean people here are doing fantastic things. >> You know how to drive a car, so to speak, you don't know how to use the tech. >> Right, and I advise companies and organizations to use the technology and the complexity that they need. So I think that service mesh and microservices and tracing and a lot of the stuff that's being talked about at this conference are very important if you have the scale to have a service-oriented microservice architecture. And, you know, some enterprises they're segmented enough where they may not actually need a full microservice real-time architecture. So I think that the thing to actually decide is, number one, do you need a microservice architecture, and it's okay if you don't, that's just fine, take the complexity that you need. If you do need a microservice architecture, then I think you're going to have a set of common problems around things like networking, and databases, and those types of things, and then yes, you are probably going to need to build in more complicated technologies to actually deal with that. But the key takeaway is that as you bring on, as you bring on more complexity, the complexity is a snowballing effect. More complexity yields more complexity. >> So Matt, might be a little bit out of bounds for what we're talking about, but when I think about autonomous vehicles, that's just going to put even more strain on the kind of the distributed natured systems, you know, things that have to have the edge, you know. Are we laying the groundwork at a conference like this? How's Lyft looking at this? >> For sure, and I mean, we're obviously starting to look into autonomous a lot, obviously Uber's doing that a fair amount, and if you actually start looking at the sheer amount of data that is generated by these cars when they're actually moving around, it's terabytes and terabytes of data, you start thinking through the complexity of ingesting that data from the cars into a cloud and actually analyzing it and doing things with it either offline or in real-time, it's pretty incredible. So, yes, I think that these are just more massive scale real-time systems that require more data, more hard drives, more networks, and as you manage more things with more people, it becomes more complicated for sure. >> What are you doing inside Lyft, your job. I mean obviously, you're involved in open source. Like, what are you coding specifically these days, what's the current assignment? >> Yeah, so I'm a software engineer at Lyft, I lead our networking team. Our networking team owns obviously all the stuff that we do with Envoy, we own our edge system, so basically how internet traffic comes into Lyft, all of our service discovery systems, rate limiting, auth between services. We're increasingly owning our GRPC communications, so how people define their APIs, moving from a more polling-based API to a more push-based API. So our team essentially owns the end-to-end pipe from all of our back-end services to the client, so that's APIs, analytics, stats, logging, >> So to the app >> Yeah, right, right, to the app, so, on the phone. So that's my job. I also help a lot with general kind of infrastructure architecture, so we're increasingly moving towards Kubernetes, so that's a big thing that we're doing at Lyft. Like many companies of Lyft's kind of age range, we started on VMs and AWS and we used SaltStack and you know, it's the standard story from companies that were probably six or eight years old. >> Classic dev ops. >> Right, and >> Gen One devops. >> And now we're trying to move into the, as you say, Gen Two world, which is pretty fantastic. So this is becoming, probably, the most applicable conference for us, because we're obviously doing a lot with service mesh, and we're leading the way with Envoy. But as we integrate with technologies like Istio and increasingly use Kubernetes, and all of the different related technologies, we are trying to kind of get rid of all of our bespoke stuff that many companies like Lyft had, and we're trying to get on that general train. >> I mean you guys, I mean this is going to be written in the history books, you look at this time in a generation, I mean this is going to define open source for a long, long time, because, I say Gen one kind of sounds pejorative but it's not. It's really, you need to build your own, you couldn't just buy Oracle database, because, you probably have some maybe Oracle in there, but like, you build your own. Facebook did it, you guys are doing it. Why, because you're badass, you had to. Otherwise you don't build customers. >> Right and I absolutely agree about that. I think we are in a very unique time right now, and I actually think that if you look out 10 years, and you look at some of the services that are coming online, and like Amazon just did Fargate, that whole container scheduling system, and Azure has one, and I think Google has one, but the idea there is that in 10 years' time, people are really going to be writing business logic, they're going to insert that business logic >> They may do a powerpoint slides. >> That would be nice. >> I mean it's easy to me, like powerpoint, it's so easy, that's, I'm not going to say that's coding, but that's the way it should be. >> I absolutely agree, and we'll keep moving towards that, but the way that's going to happen is, more and more plumbing if you will, will get built into these clouds, so that people don't have to worry about all this stuff. But we're in this intermediate time, where people are building these massive scale systems, and the pieces that they need is not necessarily there. >> I've been saying in theCUBE now for multiple events, all through this last year, kind of crystallized and we were talking about with Kelsey about this, Hightower, yesterday, craft is coming back to programming. So you've got software engineering, and you've got craftsmanship. And so, there's real software engineering being done, it's engineering. Application development is going to go back to the old school of real craft. I mean, Agile, all it did was create a treadmill of de-risking rapid build scale, by listening to data and constantly iterating, but it kind of took the craft out of it. >> I agree. >> But that turned into engineering. Now you have developers working on say business logic or just solving, building a healthcare app. That's just awesome software. Do you agree with this craft? >> I absolutely agree, and actually what we say about Envoy, so kind of the catchword buzz phrase of Envoy is to make the network transparent to applications. And I think most of what's happening in infrastructure right now is to get back to a time where application developers can focus on business logic, and not have to worry about how some of this plumbing actually works. And what you see around the industry right now, is it is just too painful for people to operate some of these large systems. And I think we're heading in the right direction, all of the trends are there, but it's going to take a lot more time to actually make that happen. >> I remember when I was graduating college in the 80s, sound old but, not to date myself, but the jobs were for software engineering. I mean that is what they called it, and now we're back to this devops brought it, cloud, the systems kind of engineering, really at a large scale, because you got to think about these things. >> Yeah, and I think what's also kind of interesting is that companies have moved toward this devops culture, or expecting developers to operate their systems, to be on call for them and I think that's fantastic, but what we're not doing as an industry is we're not actually teaching and helping people how to do this. So like we have this expectation that people know how to be on-call and know how to make dashboards, and know how to do all this work, but they don't learn it in school, and actually we come into organizations where we may not help them learn these skills. >> Every company has different cultures, that complicates things. >> So I think we're also, as an industry, we are figuring out how to train people and how to help them actually do this in a way that makes sense. >> Well, fascinating conversation Matt. Congratulations on all your success. Obviously a big fan of Lyft, one of the board members gave a keynote, she's from Palo Alto, from Floodgate. Great investors, great fans of the company. Congratulations, great success story, and again open source, this is the new playbook, community scale contribution, innovation. TheCUBE's doing it's share here live in Austin, Texas, for KubeKon, for Kubernetes conference and CloudNativeCon. I'm John Furrrier, for Stu Miniman, we'll be back with more after this short break. (futuristic music)

>> Narrator: Live from Austin, Texas, it's The Cube covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2017. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Linux Foundation, and The Cube's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, everyone. Live here, The Cube's exclusive coverage in Austin, Texas. This is CloudNativeCon and KubeCon for Kubernetes Conference. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman. My next two guests from Red Hat, Joe Brockmeier, senior evangelist, Linux Containers, Red Hat and Kimberly Craven, Director of Portfolio Marketing at Red Hat. Welcome to The Cube, good to see you guys. >> Thank you, good to see you, too. So I was saying at re:Invent last week that Red Hat's stamp of approval has always been in the enterprise. You guys are, you know, winning the enterprise, been there for years. But now, at Cloud Native, kind of things are coming together. You've got a lot of customers that have been, I won't say quietly going with Red Hat with OpenShift, and now with Kubernetes. Huge bet a few years ago. >> Mmhmm. >> Yep. >> Only two years ago. Kind of changed the game. >> Yeah, fortunately we made a strategic decision to replatform our own platform on Kubernetes and it was the right decision to make. So we've been lucky in that we've been able to, I'd say we've been able to invest in the right open source projects. So Joe, would you agree that over the years, I mean, starting with Linux. >> Yep. >> But in other technologies as well? >> Yeah, historically, I think we, not every, not 100% of the time, but a large enough percentage of the time, picked the right horse community wise. Open Stack, now Kubernetes, Linux-Colonel, obviously. I used to work for a company called LinuxMall and we sponsored these Linux pavilions. And I remember NetBSD guys telling me how Linux was doomed because it wasn't as elegant. >> Doomed, it sure didn't turn out that way. But certainly, the community model has changed. You're starting to see, you know, Dan Cohen, in his opening slide, actually kind of laid out the circle of innovation, project, products and profit. >> Joe: Yeah. >> And so now, it's okay to have profitability objectives as an outcome of great products. And so still bringing in the culture of innovation because the business market for this is pretty large. I see the number of people coming on board. The demand is pretty strong. >> Not just innovation, but I think, one of the important things about Kubernetes is that is has been a community project where it's a community of equals contributing to the project. And it's about each company bringing the right thing for the project, not the right thing necessarily just for that company, but the right thing for the overall project, which is really important. >> Timing's everything, right? I mean, as they say in life, but remember, all that FUD about past layers and infrastructures as a service, and again, the DevOps community was still growing. No one really talks about that anymore because people just want working software. >> Joe: Right. >> Right? So it's fun not to have those kind of conversations. Instead, the conversation's about how to orchestrate great workloads, how to onboard and accelerate more application developers. This is the narrative that we wanted a couple years ago. Now it's here. What are you guys doing at Red Hat to take that to the next level? >> Kimberly: So I'm going to defer to Joe for that one. >> Joe: Okay. To take that to the next level. First, before people can get to the next level, one thing I want to point out is that while everybody here is hip deep in Kubernetes and they're ready, there are a lot of companies out there that are still digesting virtualization and still digesting cloud. >> Kimberly: Right. >> Private or public, and so one of our key roles is actually to help them consume open-source software and get from Point A to Point B. So the role that we're really playing right now is about taking customers with their workloads today that are running on bare metal, that are running on virtualization, that are pet workloads, right? And getting those into the cloud and getting in those into Kubernetes and that sort of thing. So the next level for a lot of folks is actually getting up to speed to the things that were announced today. >> Right. >> Well the question I want to ask, that I want to get this on the record, 'cause it's important to get the definition, what does Kubernetes mean to the enterprise? For us in Cloud Native, we understand what it is, we get it, but to the enterprise customer, what does Kubernetes mean to them? So I would say, based on the customer conversations that we've had, it's all about getting your workloads to the cloud and being more cloud native much more quickly. So that's the end goal for adopting containers and adopting Kubernetes. It's all about getting to be in a position where you can migrate your workloads to the cloud but also develop new on the cloud much more quickly than you could before. So it's about automating, it's about all of the processes behind that, if you will. >> Joe, comment? >> I agree with everything Kimberly said. I would also just add I think it's really about kind of an almost an end-stage of software packaging, which is something that Red Hat has been doing for 20+ years, is figuring out how do we take goodness of software, open-source software, and get it into a consumable format? First it was RPM, then it was YUM, now it's containers, now it's orchestrated containers that are, you know, able to be worked on with service mesh and all these other wonderful things, cloud native storage. It's basically about taking that software and making it scale. >> Yeah, I mean, yours is a service mesh. So let's take it to the next level of customer conversation. I love this stuff, I'm going to the cloud as soon as possible. I got some stuff in the public stuff now, I got a lot of on-premise stuff activity, I love hybrid cloud. So I got a lot of different use cases. I got some bare metal, I got some hybrid cloud and I got some public cloud. Is this where the OpenShift fits in? I mean, in that environment of a customer conversation, what's the current state of the art for Red Hat to engage that customer? >> So organizations, they're taking inventory of everything that they have today. So they're looking at what do they have on bare metal today, what do they have in virtualization, what different workloads do they have and where does it make sense to deploy them both financially and from an advancement perspective? Because some workloads don't have to be, they don't have to be advanced as quickly. You don't have to make additional updates. But there are other workloads that are moving much more quickly. And one of the things that Red Hat does and where we help our customers, especially with OpenShift, is we allow them to deploy those workloads across, whether they're going to on-premises with a bare metal if you say, or as well as virtualization, private cloud, potentially a mixture of multicloud environment where they have some workloads going to Google, some workloads going to AWS, and some going to Azure. It's being able to do that consistently, that OpenShift for guidance. >> Is that a common use case right now? Is that the number one use case, this hybrid? >> So when you say that, the hybrid cloud, it's not, it's a combination of multiple use cases. People aren't necessarily looking just yet to take the same workload and move it such that it's spanning multiple clouds, but they want to have that flexibility so that if they choose to go to a certain public cloud, and it becomes it's not cost-effective for them to do so anymore, they want to be able to take that workload and move it. And that's what we're working towards. >> Joe, I got to ask about OpenShift because, you know, we've been following you guys since the Open Stack days and now with the formation of this, seeing nice lines of sight of value proposition. What's going on with OpenShift? We're hearing a lot of good customer wins, a lot of people are using it. I heard a comment in the hallway saying that OpenShift has more customers than most of these vendors here combined. I'm not sure I believe that, that might have been just kind of chatter, but is that true or can you share the success? Because it's been on a tear. What are some of the OpenShift success points? >> Kimberly: Well-- >> So is it true there are more customers than all everyone else combined? >> I'd like to say so, I mean-- >> John: Pretty close or-- >> You were at Red Hat Summit this past year back in the May timeframe and we had many OpenShift customers that were on stage. I mean, it was-- >> John: You got lots. >> Yeah, we had to turn sessions away from customers because we didn't have enough room for them. >> So one of the things we actually haven't gotten to highlight yet at this event, Red Hat does, at a lot of these shows, ahead of the show, it's called OpenShift Commons, maybe you can give our audience a little bit of what goes into that. 'Cause all the container shows, the Cloud Native shows, you know, OpenShift has been there. >> Yeah, with OpenShift Commons, it's a great way for the community to collaborate around OpenShift specifically. It's, whether it be with our ISVs, working with our ISVs on different plugins to extend OpenShift as well as our customers to be able to provide us with feedback in terms of what they're looking for. And then we take that to the community. For example, Clayton was a top contributor. That was announced yesterday. >> Yes, Clayton got an award offered for that on stage, yeah. >> Yeah, and in essence, our customers are providing feedback to us directly in OpenShift Commons and in other forums. And that allows us to steer the community more effectively to meet their needs. >> I just want to add it's not a two-way conversation with Commons. It's also, you know, I was also there on Tuesday when we did Commons and we had Tellus, for example, telling their story to the other customers in the room. And so they're not just telling us, like, hey, this works for us, this doesn't work. They're telling each other and they're sharing successes, which is part of the wonder of open sourcing community. It's not just about, you know, you can have, I don't want to use an example, you can have a two-way conversation with any vendor that's taking your money. How many vendors are bringing you together to talk to your other customers? You have to have a lot of confidence, I think, in people being happy with your solution to build something out like that. >> Yeah, and experience, too. You guys had the experience. >> Yeah, you mentioned, we were right about that time, we'd been there a number of years. I feel the open source community is a little bit better at allowing those customers to kind of come forward. Because not only are they using it, they're usually contributing to some of these technologies. Some traditional shows, you know, getting a customer to get up on stage is pretty challenging. Any comments on that? >> Well it's funny because I think it's getting much easier, moving forward, for customers to participate in the communities, as you'll see with Netflix, for example. They were up on stage earlier and talking about the contributions that they're also making to the community. I think that it's much easier than it was even, I'd say, 5-10 years ago. With that said, there are a lot of customers that want help in terms of creating additional functionality in the community where they might have something that's, perhaps, not quite ready, not quite good enough, that we help to shepherd. >> Is there a profile of customer that's adopting Kubernetes? I mean, I've seen a lot of media coverage, obviously Netflix is on AWS. ACHB on stage today. Is it coincidental that there'd be two large big media online kind of companies, or-- >> Well, it's funny you should ask that because we're conducting a research project and we recently got some data back where we, in essence, sent out a survey to customers and non-customers to see where their adoption was. What we're finding is financial services, the media, communications organization, government, and even healthcare, to some extent, are taking a look at and adopting. I'd say that, based on the adoption curve, what's funny to note is, with government, government started looking, on average, at containers three years ago, whereas with financial services, they started to get more heavily invested, now this is in general, if you're looking at the median, two years ago. With that said, I think that financial services is actually adopting containers more quickly than government is. >> I'd love to see the data on that survey because we're always doing kind of probing, anecdotal kind of stirrup holes, friends and guests of The Cube. And it's the trend, from our standpoint, is that it seems that anywhere that there's been this transformation opportunity. >> Kimberly: Mmhmm. >> I mean, look at government. Who would've though public sector could be so fast and change? So public sector, media and entertainment, people with their modernizing seems to be where the action is. But financial services is always going to be on the IT dollar spend. But like, I mean, I'm really surprised at how fast public sector is evolving. >> And what's interesting about it, too, is also the industries that are predominantly concerned with security. Security and performance are very important to financial services and to government and to communications. And it's interesting how quickly this technology is being adopted with those considerations. >> Joe, one of the things coming into the show, I listened to some previews and they're saying, you know, we're not even going to talk about containers of the show. Of course, there's containers kind of underneath. Maybe speak a little bit about that dynamic. Red Hat, you know, so heavily involved. You know, of course Linux containers, you know, underneath there. Compare and contrast to kind of what we're kind of doing here in the Kubernetes and Cloud Native space. >> Yeah, so it really isn't about the individual container anymore than five years ago it was about the individual RPM. The container runtime and the ability to spin up a container is table stakes. And so that is no longer really where the value is. Same as like, hypervisors in cloud. Like, the real value is not in the hypervisor. It's around that, it's the ecosystem around it and the ability to do it. So yeah, I mean, we're still talking about, it's funny, when I have conversations, not here, but in other places, the parlance is still to say containers when they really mean, you know, like Kubernetes and orchestration, the whole schmear. But yeah, it's not where the value and the action is these days. >> Where's the Red Hat situation with the people now? Because we've seen, we've noticed, that you guys have really kind of continued to evolve as a company. Obviously, I mean, or in the early days of Red Hat, open source wasn't tier one. You guys made it tier one as a culture, that's well-documented. But then there's a whole new Red Hat mojo going on now. OpenShift, seeing you bringing that same principles. Talk about what's going on in the company now. We've seen a lot of smart people continuing to do the Red Hat thing. What is Red Hat now in the marketplace? The same old Red Hat? What's different, what's the same? 'Cause you guys are doing really well. >> Kimberly: Mmhmm. >> What's it like there? >> I think, I've been at Red Hat for about six years and I would say that the culture has continued to evolve since I joined. One of the things that first attracted me about it was that there are a lot of smart people that work at Red Hat and it's a very collaborative culture. It's a culture that's based on meritocracy and the best ideas truly win. So very similar to the way that OpenSource projects are run or should be run, for the good OpenSource projects, it's very much about getting people together, hearing what everyone has to say, and making sure that the right ideas are the ones that move forward. >> John: Surely they attract great people, too. >> Yeah. >> To build on that, in this industry there's so much kind of hype, boom and bust. On the outside, you look at it, I mean, from a financial standpoint, Red Hat's one of the most consistent performers out there. You know, quarter after quarter, Kim talks about the growth. So you know, I'm not asking you to talk about the financials but, you know, worth a show. Nobody here can keep up with all the changes. So you know, just, when you talk about all these projects and everything, Red Hat, can you keep up with the changes? Or is it just that you've got so many people and contribute so many places? >> We're working on it and I think, I mean, the nice thing about it is that everybody's very passionate about all of those changes that are happening. And we like change, oddly enough, we embrace it. It's interesting, but that's one of the parts of being at Red Hat. And I'd say, I mean, I would think that that's something that's inherent to us. >> Well, I mean, our corporate mission, part of our corporate mission is to be the catalyst for change and communities. And we, you know, I've worked at a couple of larger companies and this is the only one where I feel like if I don't agree with something I can send an email directly to Jim and say, "I don't agree with this and I think we should do something different." >> And he'll respond within four hours. >> And Jim will respond unless he's on a plane. >> Yeah, he'll respond and you know, even if they don't agree, which is impossible, everybody always agrees with me. (group laughs) But even if they don't agree, you know, they engage honestly and respectfully, and that's super important in this kind of industry. If you can't do that, you can't run with open source. >> Joe, Kimberly, thanks for coming on The Cube, and continued success and thanks for all the Red Hat contribution. You guys are doing a great job in the community. Continue to appreciate it. >> Thank you. >> Red Hat, here on The Cube, continuing to do the Red Hat thing. Red Hat, stamp of approval from the enterprise. Certainly well-respected and the leader inside The Cube here at the CloudNativeCon and KubeCon for KubernetesCon, not Cube. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman. We'll be back with more after this short break. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: Live from Austin, Texas, it's theCUBE, covering Kubecon and CloudNativeCon 2017. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Linux Foundation, and theCUBE's ecosystem partners. >> Okay, welcome back everyone. This is theCUBE's exclusive coverage. We are live in Austin, Texas for CloudNativeCon and KubeCon, not to be confused with CUBE, 'cause we don't have a CUBE Con yet, C-U-B-E. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman. Next is Armon Dadgar who is the founder and CTO of HashiCorp. Welcome to theCUBE. >> Thanks so much for having me. >> Thanks for coming on. So we interviewed your partner in crime Mitchell years ago, and we were riffing in our studio in Palo Alto, and essentially we laid out microsurfaces and all the stuff that's being worked on today. So, congratulations, you guys were right in your bet? >> It's funny to see how the reaction has changed over the last few years. Back then it used to be, we'd go in and it's like, people are like, did you catch a load of those crazy people who came in and talked about microsurfaces, and immutable, and cloud? It's like, get out of here. And now it's funny to be here at KubeCon, and it's like-- >> Well it was fun days back then, it was the purest in DevOps, and I say purest, I mean people who were really cutting their teeth into the new methodology, the new way to develop, the new way to kind of roll out scale, a lot of the challenges involved. Certainly, now it's gone mainstream. >> Armon: Yeah. >> You're seeing no doubt about it, I just came back from re:Invent, from AWS, Lambda, Server List. You got application developers that just don't want to deal with any infrastructure. That's infrastructure as code in the DevOps ethos, and then you got a lot of people in the infrastructure plumbing, and App plumbing world, who actually care about all this stuff, provisioning. So, how are you guys fitting into the new landscape? You guys riding along? Were you guys the first ones paddling out to these waves? How do you guys at HashiCorp look at all this growth? >> So the way we think about it is, I think there's a lot of market confusion right now, just because there's so much happening, and I mean, even just being here it's like, almost overwhelming to just like understand what exactly is this market landscape evolving to? And the way we're thinking about it is, there's really these four discrete layers with the four different people that are involved in tech, right? We have, on one side, we have our IT operators that are just trying to get a handle around, how do I provision things in Amazon, and now I have business groups coming and saying, okay I want to provision in Google, cloud and Azure. How do I really do that in way that I don't lose my sanity? You have your security people who are saying, I've lost my network perimeter, now what? Like, how do I think about secret management, and app identity, and this brave new world of cloud. You have your app developers who are like, I don't care about any of that, just give me a platform where I can push deploy and out the gate it goes, and you deal with it. And then you have the folks that are kind of making it all kind of plug together and work, the networking backbone, who is saying okay, before it was F5 and Juniper and Cisco. What does it mean for me as I'm going cloud? So, the way we're sorting of seeing ourself involved in all of this is, how do we help operators sort of get a handle around the provisioning side, with things like Terraform? How do we help the security folks with tools like Volt? How do we complement things like Kubernetes at the runtime layer, or provide our solution with Nomad, and then on the networking side, how do we provide a consistent service discovery experience with Consul? >> So you guys are really just now just kind of riding in with everybody else, kind of welcoming everybody to the party, if you will. (Armon laughs) What's the big surprise for you as you guys, you know it's not new to you guys, but as you see it evolving, what's jumping out at you? I mean, we're hearing service mesh, pluggable architectures. What are some of the things that's popping out of the woodwork that you're excited about? >> Honestly, the thing that I'm excited about is the excitement about infrastructure, right? I mean, when we started four, five years ago, it was an ice cold market. You'd go and talk to people, like, let's talking about how you're doing provisioning, or your deployment, or how your developers push things, and people were like, do we really have to? Like, let me get a coffee. And now it's like the opposite. It's like people are so excited to talk about the infrastructure, the bits and bytes of it, and I think that for us is probably the most exciting thing. So, whether you come here, and it's like the vibe is electric, right? Like, you guys can attest to it. It's crazy to see the growth of it, and so what's exciting for us is now these conversations are being lit up all across industry. >> Yeah. >> So whether you're talking about hey, how do I provision a thing on cloud, to what's a scheduler and how does that help me, there is this tremendous interest in it. >> Yeah, Armon, take us inside. You talked about, you know, it used to be kind of, we would be talking, is infrastructure boring? What is that change that's happening in customers? Has it just reached a certain maturity level, that now the business, they need to move faster, and therefore I need to adopt these kinds of architectures? What are you seeing when you're talking to customers? >> Yeah, I think that, the sort of, we heard that, the sort of, the line a few times is it's becoming boring, but I think what, and sometimes that's the goal, right? All of these tools, all of infrastructure is plumbing, at the end of the day, right? At the end of the day, the applications of the end users is really what should be, sort of, the exciting bit. And so, it's our responsibility, sort of, as the vendors here in the community, working on the infrastructure, to make the stuff boring. And I think, in that case, what we really mean is that it should be so reliable, so well documented, so scalable that it's brain dead to operate these things. And I think, step one is, let's get people excited about what's the state of the possible, what's the art of the possible in terms of, what do I get in terms of business agility of adopting stuff? Once people start adopting it, let's make it boring for them. Let's make them sure they don't regret it, and that they actually see those benefits. >> Well, it's reliable too. Boring equals reliability. >> Exactly, exactly. >> Yeah, it's interesting. When you walk through the provision, secure, connect, and run, it reminded me a little bit of Chen talking in the Keynote this morning about kind of the stack they see Kubernetes playing. >> Armon: Totally. >> You know, there's some people who will probably look, well, HashiCorp, you guys, you have a platform. You've got some of these projects. Is that, what's compatible, what's replaceable? What's the connection between what you are doing and what's happening in this space? >> Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, think a lot of people are like "Is it odd for HashiCorp to be here?" And I think it goes back to our lens on this market, Which is. we want to provide tools that are sort of discrete in each of these categories and we fully know that customers are not going to go all in on HashiCorp and say, I want all four layers, right? A lot of our customers are Kubernetes users. And so, for us the mission is, okay great, how do we make sure Terraform plays nice with Kubernetes? How do we make sure Vault plays nice? So I actually have a session in about an hour and a half here, talking about Vault integration with Kubernetes. And then, we have a developer advocate talking about using Console with Kubernetes as well. So for us, it's really a play nice story. How do we make all of these work together. >> It's a rising-tide-that-floats-all-boats market, I mean this is what's happening. You guys are actors in the ecosystem. It's not a land grab. No-one can own the stack. That's the whole point of this ecosystem, isn't it? >> It's so big, right, this market that we are talking about is so enormous. It's every organization writing software. (laughing) >> All right, give us the update on HashiCorp. What's going on, what's the latest and greatest you guys are out starting? We interviewed you guys about, I think three years ago, maybe four. Can't even remember now at this point. It seems like a blur. >> Yeah, I mean, so two months ago was our big HashiCom for our user com friends. And for us, the focus has really been saying okay, we've got our initial set of open-source tools out on the market in 2015. And we said okay, lets take a pause. There's already so many tools, lets just focus on how do we make the practitioners successful with each of these things and really go deep on all of them. And so, with things like Terraform, we've been partnering with all the various cloud providers, right, to say how do we have first class support for Azure, and Google Cloud and Amazon and make sure that you know, as you're adopting these clouds, Terraform meet you there. And then with things like Vault it's how do we integrate with every platform companies want to be on. So if you're using Kubernetes, how do we make sure Vault meets you there and integrates? So, for us that's been the focus, is staying sort of focused on the six core tools, and saying, "How do we make sure "they're staying up to date as technology moves?" And sort of deepening them. >> Yeah, because your users are going to be leveraging a lot of the new stuff. They're going to be, Kubernetes has certainly been great. What's your take on Kubernetes, if you can just take a minute to just, I mean, not new to this notion of runtime and orchestration. We talked about it with Mitchell in our session years ago, we didn't actually say Kubernetes, it wasn't around then, but we talked about the middleware of the cloud. That was our discussion, and that was essentially called Pass at that time, but now, no one talks about Pass any more, it's all kind of one. >> Right, right. >> What's your take on Kubernetes? How do you feel about it? What is it to you? >> Right, yeah, I think that's, so I think, twofold: I think what's exciting for me about it is, it reminds me in some sense like what Docker did for the industry, which, if we went to sort of the pre-Docker world nobody talked about immutable artifact based deploys. It was like this esoteric thing and then all of a sudden over night Docker made it popular. Whereas like, oh yeah, of course everything should be immutable and artifact based. And then when you look at what Kubernetes has done, it's built on that momentum to say, okay, that was step one. Step two is to say, you really should think about all your machines as a sort of shared pool of resources and move the abstraction up to the application to the service and think about, I'm deploying a service, I'm not deploying a set of VMs. And so it's been this sort of tidal shift in how IT thinks about deploying and delivering in application. It actually should be focused on the service. Focus on sort of abstracting away the machine, and that's super exciting. >> And what do you think the benefits will be with the impact of the marketplace? Faster development, I mean, what's some of the impact that you see coming out of this to go to the next level? >> Yeah, I mean the impact for me is really saying, when we really look at these approaches, in some sense they are not new, if you look at what Google's been doing since the early 2000s with Board, what Amazon's been doing, what Facebook's been doing internally. These big tech companies have showed if you are able to move up the abstraction and provide this higher level of utility to developers, you can support tens of thousands of services, innovate much more quickly, and for a while, that was sort of trapped in these big tech companies. And I think what Kubernetes is really doing is bringing that to everybody else and saying, actually adopting the same strategy lets you have that, right? >> Yeah, its a maturation of open source of this generation. You look at what Lyft, Uber are doing. Look at the Open Tracing for instance, pretty interesting stuff, because I mean they had to build their own stuff. >> Armon: Right. >> At scale, massive scale. Not like, you know, hundreds of thousands of services, millions of transactions a second. >> Armon: Right. >> I mean, that's daunting. >> That's daunting. >> Okay, so your take on open source. Okay, because now we're seeing a new generation of developers coming online. I've been saying it's been, a renaissance is coming. More of an artisan, a craft coming back to craftsmanship of coding. Not like UX Design side, become a craft in code. So you got a new, younger generation coming up. They don't even know what a load balancer is. >> Right. But they're happy not to deal with that as you said. And then you've got open source growing exponentially. Jim Zemlin at the Linux Foundation is saying 10% of the IP is going to be unique to the company. The rest is going to be that sandwich of open source. That's exponential growth. >> Right. >> You get exponential growth, new wave of software developers. You're a young gun, what's your view of the future? >> I mean, its funny, because it's like that first derivative is going exponential. The second derivative is going exponential. You know, I think we're going to see more and more innovation at the, ultimately what it's really about is delivering at the end application layer, right? Like, we're all here to be plumbing, right, and so the better we can be at being plumbing, the better the application developers can be at delivering innovation there. And so, I totally agree that the trend is going to go 90/10. And I think that was partly one of the reasons we started HashiCorp, because we'd look around and we're like it's insane that you have 30 to 50% of these companies doing platform engineering that's completely undifferentiated from anyone else. It's like you're deploying on the same vSphere VM as your competitor but you're rebuilding the whole platform. It's crazy, it's like you should have used an open source tool and focused on the application and not how to boot a vSphere into it. >> And the impact cost and time. >> Armon, one of the things we talk about, the only thing constant in this industry is that the pace of change keeps increasing. How are you dealing internally? How are customers doing? I think back two years, a year and a half ago I talked to a guy who was like, "Oh, Vagrant is like my favorite thing, "I've been using it ever." Now I talk to lots of customers that are, Vault is critical to their stacks that they're doing. HashiCorp looks very different than they did two years ago. How's that pace of change happening internally and with customers? >> Totally, and I think part of what we've done as actually since 2015 we haven't really introduced brand new products because our feeling is that it's becoming so confusing for the end users to really navigate this landscape. So, in 2015 we thought the landscape was confusing. Today it's multiplied by 100 or 1,000. >> We were at Amazon last week, we understand. >> Yeah, exactly. And I think honestly I think that is, when you look around here I think that's one of the challenges we're facing as an industry, is I go and meet with customers who are like, "Every time I refresh Hacker News, "there's 50 new things I need to go evaluate." It's like I don't know where to even begin. And its like, as a vendor I have a hard time keeping up with space, you know. I empathize with the end user who, it's not their full time job to do that. So, our goal has been to say how do we better distill at least the HashiCorp universe in terms of hey, here's how our pieces fit together and here's how we relate to everything else in the ecosystem, and kind of give our end users a map of okay, what tools play nice, how do these things sort of work together. But I think as a bigger industry we have a bit of an issue around the sheer amount of sort of innovation. How do we curate that and really make it more accessible? >> Armon, I've got to ask you a personal question. Obviously you guys are entrepreneurs doing a great job. Been following you guys, congratulations by the way. What are you most proud of as you look back and what do you wish you could do over? If you could get a mulligan and say "Okay, I want to do that differently." >> How much time do we have by the way? (laughing) >> 10 seconds, I'm going to ask you the parachute question next, go ahead. >> You know, I think the thing we're most proud of might be Terraform. I think it's fun to see sort of the level of ubiquity and the standardization that is taking place around it. Ah, the thing I wish we could take back is you know, probably our Otto project. I think the scope was so big for that thing and I think our eyes were probably a little wider than they should have been on that one. So I wish we had not committed to that one. >> You reign it in, catch the mistakes early. Okay, final question for you. You're a large customer and the plane is going down, you have 10 seconds to pick a parachute. Amazon, Azure or Google. Which one do you grab? >> Ooh. >> Go. >> You know, probably Amazon. No one ever gets fired for choosing Amazon. >> All right well Jeff Frick on our CUBE team said, "I'd take all three and call it Multi Cloud." >> That's the right answer. Armon, thanks for coming on appreciate it. Congratulations on your success at HashiCorp. >> My pleasure, thanks so much for having me. >> Got HashiCorp here on theCUBE, CTO and co-founder on theCUBE, Riding The Wave, CloudNative, Kupernetes, lot of great stuff happening. Microservices and containers. It's theCUBE doing our part here at KubeCon. We'll be right back with more live coverage after this short break.

>> Announcer: Live, from Austin, Texas, it's theCube, covering KubeCon and Cloud Native Con 2017. Brought to you by Red Hat, The Linux Foundation, and theCube's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back everyone, live here. This is theCube's exclusive coverage, live in Austin, Texas for Cloud Native Con and KubeCon with The Linux Foundation. I'm John Furrier, the founder. Silicon Angle Media, my cohost Stu Miniman, and next to us Joe Beda, who's the co-founder, co-founder and CTO of Heptio With Craig McLuckie, the famous startup that came out of the Google team, really one of the principal founders of Kubernetes with Craig and the team Brendon Burns and the like. Great to have you on theCube, thanks for coming on. >> Thank you very much for having me, it's exciting. >> Good time, first time on theCube, glad to have you, we've been trying to get your perspective because obviously we're fans of the Kubernetes, I just had Lou Tucker on, we were talking interclouding and some orchestration opportunity. You guys had that vision and it's really important to tell the story, at the beginning with Kubernetes. You guys were sitting around, having a little beer, free food at the Google cafeteria, what was it like? What happened? How did it all come together? >> All right well, I started at Google probably 10, 12 years ago, did a whole bunch of stuff but eventually landed doing cloud. Craig and I started up a Google compute engine, VM as a service and the odd thing to recognize is that nobody who had been at Google for a long time thought that there was anything to this VM stuff. Because Google had been on containers for so long, that was their mindset, Borg was the way that stuff was actually deployed, so my boss at the time, who's now in Cloud Era booted up a VM for the first time, and anybody in the outside world would be like hey, that's really cool and his response was like, well now what? You're sitting at a prompt, that's not super interesting, how do I run my app? That's what everybody's been struggling with with Cloud, it's not how do I get a VM, how do I actually run my code? As Google got more and more serious about Cloud, every big company wants to dog food their products. How do we make the experience that folks inside of Google have, developers inside of Google have, match the experience that Cloud customers have? The choice there was either we make everybody inside of Google start using VM's which would have felt like that step backwards, or we teach the rest of the world about Borg. Now around the same time, docker started getting a lot of attention and we were like hey, those guys are onto something, they really found a good way to make this technology accessible to users on a single node level, but our experience at Google really taught us that that clusters you, how do you actually create this abstraction that a whole bunch of computers are one thing that you operate with? That was the thing that was going to be interesting and so out of that, we decided Kubernetes was going to be the thing or at least getting Borg out to the rest of the world, and we knew for it to be effective, it couldn't just be Google doing it alone, we had to do it in a way that would bring the rest of the industry with us. That's the motivation behind Kubernetes. It took us about another three months to convince all the folks at Google that this was a good idea, it was controversial, the open source projects at the time were things like, the biggest things would be like Chrome and Android. Those things were, the relationship with their community was very different from what we were aiming for with Kubernetes, they were much more consumer focused versus infrastructure focused. >> It was early too for Google to recognize the multi cloud world. >> I think some it wasn't so much multi cloud as much as developers have a really strong sense of where the lock in is, where the vendor lock in is, and we knew that if we wanted to win the hearts and minds of engineers and developers and folks that took this stuff seriously, as the underdog in the cloud world at the time, you had to really go out there and build something that was going to be widely applicable. Because you don't want to invest your time and energy into something that's super specialized to one cloud and I think the whole multi cloud thing, honestly I think it's engineers and developers and operations folks that had that sense from the get go, we were just reacting to that. >> Good instincts too. Kubernetes certainly working out today, state of the union, cause we're still only less than three years old as a community, seems like 20, but the momentum's been amazing, has been a lot of revision, a lot of people have their own versions of Kubernetes, yet there's a core, vanilla Kubernetes, but it's working. People have gotten around this. What is the big thing that has surprised you the most and where are you most excited right now, where Kubernetes is at? >> Okay surprise, there's 4100 people here at KubeCon, that's absolutely insane. I think we had this idea that it could be a thing and that, but I don't think that any of us imagined that within three years we'd be sitting here, doing this type of thing. That I think for me is the most surprising. It's a challenge to take these ideas that have been successful inside at Google and translate those to the rest of the world and it wasn't an easy or obvious thing, there were a lot of good ideas but figuring out how to get those out there, I think that really is due to the larger community. Folks like Clayton Pullman from Red Hat coming in early with a lot of that really brought a lot of that outside DNA necessary to bridge that gap. Surprising that we got here, but really it took the community to make that happen. In terms of what I'm most excited about right now, with the announcement of EKS from Amazon, it definitely feels like we're moving into a new phase of Kubernetes where folks are being much more focused on what do you do with Kubernetes versus how do you get Kubernetes running. Kelsey tweeted it the other day, but I think we've been saying for a while, Kubernetes at its heart is a platform for building platforms, really we viewed it from the start as a toolbox and I think we're only now starting to see, what other things are people going to be building with that toolbox and I think that's going to be that larger ecosystem, is going to be much larger than Kubernetes itself. >> Joe, coming into this show, there were so many announcements around Kubernetes, there's like 42 certified different versions out there. I think you could help explain a little bit because there's the big cloud guys, you mentioned Clayton who we had earlier from Red Hat, there's all these companies, oh well, Kubernetes is just like it's a piece and it's in there. Your company is around Kubernetes, so what does this mean that Kubernetes is, I guess we'd say commoditized across there, I think it's a good thing for the industry, but what does it mean, why is there a need for Heptio and what do you guys see as your role in the ecosystem? >> There's a bunch of folks that are really concentrating on how do I get Kubernetes up and running and that's one thing, and I think that landscape is going to be changing and evolving over time. We're definitely happy to help folks be successful with Kubernetes, it's one of those things we're going to do, we're going to do an open source project, services, support and training with that, but when we look forward, I think a big part of it is, how do we bridge the gap to integrate Kubernetes into businesses, how do we start building those next layer tools on top of it and to some degree, it's a wild west. There's those 42 companies, everybody's trying to actually find something that's going to be interesting, start solving problems, but the thing that's really encouraging to me is that Kubernetes is the base and we're doing work, both Heptio and the community around conformance to make sure that we actually have a solid base that folks can build on top of. Then everybody's focused on how can we actually capture the attention of developers, how can we actually deliver value there and so that's a really great dynamic, when everybody's like I want to do something really great that people are going to get a lot out of, only good things are going to come from that. >> Yeah and I liked, there was a concern some people had, oh last week AWS is now all in, they've got EKS, but you had an announcement about the Heptio authenticator open source authentication, a little bit of a partnership with AWS it looked like. Maybe explain, it sounds like one of the things you're building on top of this. >> Yeah exactly. Like everybody else, we had heard all the rumors, hey is Amazon going to do a Kubernetes offering or not. In our mind, there were two ways. >> Didn't they have to Joe? >> Well that's what I thought last year, but who knows, I think Amazon doesn't have to do anything but when we first started Kubernetes, we reached out to the folks at Amazon including Deepak and we're like hey, you guys are welcome, come join us here and they were like yeah, yeah, we'll join you when the customers are asking for it. Well it turns out the customers were asking for it, so here they are and I think it's a great thing. I think it could've gone two ways, they could have built in a bunch of integrations into Kubernetes that were only available through EKS that really made EKS a more integrated, better Kubernetes than running open source Kubernetes on top of Amazon, or they could've worked with the community, with upstream to try and make Kubernetes run great on Amazon, better on Amazon as is but then run even better when you're running it with EKS and they actually have the management on top of it. I think they decided to go that second route which is much more community friendly. A couple weeks before the announcement, they reached out to us, said hey, we noticed you had this project, it looks really interesting, we need a way to bridge IM to authenticate to Kubernetes and we like the approach that you're taking, can we work together to continue to develop this and that was the first signal to us that they wanted to really reach out and work with the community and so we're like hey, that sounds great, let's work together and get that stuff out there. It's still very early, I think EKS is GA next year, they set an aggressive goal for themselves, so I'm really looking forward to see where they take that and we're going to partner with them where it makes sense around things like authenticator. >> You mentioned we're going to a whole other level with Kubernetes and Amazon's announcement goes to the next level, you also mentioned you worked at Google Compute, Apple, all these other cool names with Google and you got Heptio, you're solving making interesting things happen with Kubernetes and you got a new class of developers coming in that have never heard of what a local director is. Infrastructure as code is happening, so you got the cloud game going on. I got to ask you, as Kubernetes starts to continue to take shape, a lot of people are trying to survive. In this technical architecture decisions, almost a tech chess game, which side of history will you be on thing going on and customers want more clarity. You have a lot of movement and customers want clarity. How do you see it continuing and what is the right path in your mind because it's looking good right now and commoditization as some say, I think is a good thing because value, there's value in interoperability, there's value in orchestration, there's value in a new class of web developer creating, solving problems with code, whether it's societal problems or other things, so there's a lot of big picture, wholistic things happening and Kubernetes kind of strikes at the heart of that. What's the right path in your mind, what's the vision you think Kubernetes should go into. >> Well I think first of all, I think change happens in the industry both fast and slow. It feels like it's been three years since Kubernetes, since we open sourced Kubernetes, and it's come a huge way since then. That happened really fast. You look at Enterprise, you look at Enterprise adoption cycles, I believe last I heard the mainframe division was a growing profit center for IBM. This stuff doesn't go away so as we see things like containers and Kubernetes and serverless and cloud, as we see these things come on the scene, it doesn't necessarily replace stuff, it augments and it adds over time so we see the mix of where people invest shift. In that way, things become established quickly, but old things go away slowly. I don't think it's going to be as quick of a shift as maybe it might seem at first. Now in terms of where the opportunities are moving forward and where we see this developing, the thing that's exciting for me is as we have, and this is something early on, talking with Brendon, he got super excited about, is as we provide new abstractions, as we provide a new toolbox, how do people start creating systems and applications that take advantage of that. I'll give you an example, distributed systems, pre-systems like Kubernetes were very difficult because not only did you have to do the thing that you wanted to do, you had to build all of this plumbing to actually get your things to talk to each other, the finds, the secure, all that stuff had to be created from scratch and those systems were rare and hard to manage and few and far between. Now with things like Kubernetes, there's a whole set of problems that you actually don't have to solve. The floor that you need, the floor is that much higher for building these systems so I think we're going to see a shift not just to cloud native, but I also think we're going to see a set of applications that are Kubernetes native. These are applications that assume that Kubernetes is the substrate that they're running on, and they take special advantage of it and I think we're going to see amazing thing happens when we really democratize the plumbing for building distributed systems. >> And that's the key, make that frictionless so if people want to go Kubernetes native, they're taking advantage, that's cool. I want to get to, to take that to the next level, as the world of IOT comes down, you can almost look at the world now as all IOT. There's no on prem and there's no cloud. If you believe this service mission unpluggable architectures, you could argue that a data center is a network point, it's an attached device to a myriad things, so you're going to need policy, the light bulb has a process in it, the wifi has wifis everywhere, so in a way, this is all going to be a grid if you will, it's going to be kind of a mesh. This is the right direction don't you think, the more services that come online, you just want to connect to them. That's the nirvana right? Are we smoking the peace pipe here too much? >> I think there's a bunch of trends that we're seeing happen there. I think with IOT, we see also a move towards edge computing, this idea of, we're going to see much more stuff happening in a more distributed manner. Whether that edge happens to be in your house or whether it's in a telecom cabinet or whether it's just mini data centers that are dropped in to parking lots here and there. That introduces a whole bunch of new problems in terms of how do you manage that stuff at scale. One of the things that I see is that we're seeing an interesting overlap between CDM providers and cloud providers, so you have cloud flare introducing their cloud workers, where you can start running actual code in their CDM nodes and that's the culmination of CDM providers over time fighting with each other to drive more and more customization. On the other hand, you have Amazon taking lambda, finding ways to actually use lambda and push that out to the edge, even into devices that are doing local machine learning. There's this overlap between these two different worlds. Then also, as we move stuff closer out to the clouds, the political situations that people deal with become that much more complex. As you start running compute in all these different countries, all of a sudden you can't necessarily go to one provider to actually deal with all of that. We're moving from this world where, when you're centered around data which is the traditional cloud, when you want to put it all in one big pile with compute around the edges, that's kind of like the traditional data center. Going with a few large providers makes a ton of sense. As we move towards a much more distributed world, it becomes a more distributed problem both in terms of how do you manage the compute, but how do you manage the relationships and how do you actually understand what's happening across all that and I think Kubernetes can be a part of that puzzle for sure, but it's not the end of the answer, there's still a lot of problems to be solved there. >> No but you get the first mile post. You can say hey, I can start orchestrating workloads and have endpoints that have services that talk to each other as the first step. >> Joe, one thing I wanted to ask you, what are the stumbling blocks? What do people need to look out for? Because most companies out there aren't Google. >> This morning at today's keynote and you can find it online, there's that cloud native road map that Dan was showing. That is an interesting thing that cuts both ways. On the one hand, it shows an enormous amount of innovation, it shows that we're seeing this explosion of interest in this world and it's really invigorating. That's from an entrepreneur's view and a technologist's view. If I'm a customer, that thing's kind of horrifying. I look at that and I say wow, I really have to understand all of this stuff to get ahead? I think the biggest stumbling block is really being able to make sense of all the noise out there. I think that noise is part and parcel of an active, innovative, chaotic ecosystem, but I think it's one of those things that makes it that much harder for enterprises and for more mainstream developers to adopt. Tim, we've been saying this for a while, for Kubernetes to be successful, we had to make it boring. That's Tim Hawkin, I think maybe was the first one to say that, but we not only had to make Kubernetes boring, we had to make that entire stack boring, we had to make cloud native boring. That's when it will have succeeded. I don't know what this conference will look like when cloud native is boring, but it'll probably be very different than. >> It'll certainly create some excitement, boring is reliable, boring is safe, boring is secure, boring is comfortable. Mark Zuckerberg once said move fast, break stuff, then he revised it to move fast and be 100% reliable. That's boring. >> Did he actually say that? >> I don't know, he shifted his narrative because that was the maverick early days when he started running at five nines it's like a whole nother ball game. >> Actually that matters. >> Joe, great to have you on theCube, thanks for sharing your awesome insight into the dynamics of the computing industry that's going cloud native, going KubeCon, and certainly Kubernetes that you helped put together with the team, it's certainly taken on a life of its own, last minute, take a minute to talk about Heptio, what you guys are working on, get the plug in. >> Yeah Heptio, we have services, support and training that we're offering to make customers successful with Kubernetes today and that's been invigorating, really getting out there and talking with folks, seeing the problems that they're hitting now versus where we want it to go. We're doing a bunch of work around open source projects, we have Heptio Arc which is a backup disaster recovery project open source, we have Sona Boy, which is a diagnostic project for running the conformance tests and it underpins the Kubernetes conformance effort. We have K Sonic which helps you configure applications and then we also have Contour, which is an ingress controller building on top of Envoy and other CNCF project and then into 2018, we're going to be offering more products and projects and services that really start targeting the special needs of larger and larger enterprises and that's where our focus is going to shift over time. >> You guys are certainly helping customers who are under pressure to add more services, including what Amazon's doing, more pronouncements, there are little announcements, some big some little, but still, the cadence of new things happening is fast at all times right now. >> I can't keep up either, nobody else can. >> We try. Two and a half hour keynote, it's ridiculous. Joe Beda here inside theCube, cofounder CTO of Heptio a hot startup, making Kubernetes interesting and exciting and reliable and boring. Not boring, we should say that. >> Oh boring's good. >> Infrastructure's good, it's theCube, bringing you all the live action from Austin, Texas, I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman, KubeCon and Cloud Native Con, we'll be right back after this short break.

>> Narrator: Live from Austin, Texas. It's theCUBE, covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2017. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Linux Foundation, and theCUBE's ecosystem partners. >> Hey, welcome back everyone, we're here live at theCUBE in Austin, Texas for KubeCon 2017, 2nd annual conference of the Kubernetes Conference, I'm John Furrier, here with my co-host, Stu Miniman, Ben Sigelman, who's the CEO of LightStep, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you so much. >> So you're also involved in open tracer, all this stuff with service mesh, really instrumental tech work going on right now. >> Mmhmm, yep. >> With this KubernetesCon, I mean Kubernetes has been successful. People are now learning for, the first time in mainstream, but it's really galvanized the community. At many levels, and I haven't seen this much action and so fast, up and down the stack. You know, you got the infrastructure plumbing guys, and you got the app plumbing guys all building really, really fast. What's the state of the union? Give us a peak of what's happening, what's solid, what's foundational? What are the building blocks that are being built on and what's the current task of jobs being worked on projects and what not? >> Yeah, and that's a great question. I was, emerged my hotel room yesterday just to get on the elevator and Kelsey Hightower emerged from his hotel room, turns out two doors down from me, and we're walking to the elevator together, I'm like, "Hey! You know, so, what's your big announcement?" He's so good on stage, he's a brilliant communicator, and he's like, you know, honestly, the big news right now, is that actually there's not that much news from a release standpoint about Kubernetes, which is actually a really big deal. It's gotten to the point where it's feature set is actually appropriate and somewhat stable. And now we finally are at the point where it's, I think, it has a really natural architecture for plugins and extensions and now we can build this entire ecosystem around it, instead of building around something that's a bit of a moving target. I think it's incredible how, it is truly incredible, to see this conference over the last couple of years. >> So Pete's foundational elements are in place. >> Yeah. >> That's his, kind of his... >> Yeah, exactly. And it's incredible to see how much of, not just a commercial ecosystem, but a technology ecosystem, that's built around those primitives, and so I think those really are the right primitives, to democratize the pieces that should be democratized, and to centralize the pieces that should be centralized. So to me, this year is really about going a level up in the stack, and delivering value that's beyond, you know, the container, Kubernetes level, and that's what a lot of the projects that I'm excited about are doing. >> Yeah, so Ben, and that leads right into one of the things that we've been talking about all week here, service meshes. >> Ben: Yeah. >> So, you gave a keynote yesterday, maybe give our audience a little bit about service meshes, servibility, and there's something about a pigeon? >> (laughs) Yeah that was very funny. Just the reference about the pigeon, the first slide in my talk was a picture of a murmuration of starlings, this beautiful cloud of birds moving in harmony, and while I was waxing on about how this represented microservices, an actual bird flew above me on stage. There was a pigeon trapped in this room `(laughter) and so everyone started laughing, I didn't know what was so funny, I'm like... >> Jeez. What a great demo. >> ...like what did I do wrong? Do I have a note on my back or something? And then the hilarious thing is the second slide was actually the operational experience of deploying this sort of microservice technology is actually very difficult, and so it was this slide from Alfred Hitchcock's "The Birds," with these birds attacking this poor child. And so, and the bird is still circling around above me. It was perfect stagecraft, I wish I had tried to do it, it would have been amazing to take credit for arranging an actual live animal as part of my presentation. But in terms of the actual material in the presentation, which may be less entertaining than the bird flying around my head, but the material of the presentation is something I feel very strongly about, and I alluded to this a moment ago, I think that containers are incredibly important, I think Kubernetes is incredibly important, and I am extraordinarily confident that in ten years, they're going to be everywhere. That said, they're not something an application developer really should care that deeply about as part of their job of writing business logic for the service that they are maintaining and developing. That shouldn't be a layer that they care about. And there are a lot of really, really important problems that crop up at the application layer. At Google, the way we addressed this, was by having not a monolithic architecture, but a monolithic software repository where everyone developed the same code base, but one of the things that I thought was interesting was being at Google, if you wanted to deploy an application, even something that just printed out 'Hello, world' or something, it was like a 150 megabyte binary, because there's so much stuff that was crammed in to level 7, user level stuff, and that was right for Google, it's not really the best architecture for a lot of enterprises out there and I think what's so cool about service mesh, is that it's taken a bunch of really, genuinely hard computer science problems, like service discovery, connection, and load balancing, and reconnection, health checks, security and authentication, observability and tracing, these are really hard things to do well, and it's factored them off into a side car that you can run alongside ordinary applications that were not even developed with that in mind and take advantage of these application level, level 7 primitives. We've had people who are trying to build solutions for any number of managerial and monitoring tasks at the container level, where often that stuff is completely obscured. Like by the time you're at the kernel that you can't see any of this stuff. If you're up at level 7 in the service mesh, you have easy access to application level data, which makes everything a lot more elegant and straightforward for developers, so it's like, to me, it's this single point of integration that removes a bunch of hard computer science problems from ordinary application development. >> And so people were stuffing containers basically and trying to overdrive that. Makes total sense architecturally and I want you to take a step back and kind of unpack that a little bit. We didn't get here by accident. We got here through real hard work, I mean people were out there building from open-source large-scale systems. >> Yeah. >> Uber, Lyft, there's a handful of other examples. What was the driver around this, because you're talking about a really elegant architecture that allows for solving a problem for the guys that solve their own problems. Thousands, hundreds of thousands of transactions, services, millions of transactions per second. >> Yup. >> So this was not like "Hey, let's just design a new system!" It was some scar tissue. >> Yeah. >> How does that connect to like, reality now for, whether it's a start-up saying "Hey, you know, we're a couple of years old, we're on AWS, and we're growing, and I want to add more value, but I don't want to relearn machine learning, I want to build on all this stuff and create business value from my enterprise, growing an enterprise. Or, big enterprises, trying to be cloud enabled. So that's, how should someone think about that? And what specifically was the problem that was solved? >> Yes. Well, I'm an obsessive person, I'll admit that. And I'm personally obsessed with performance, and so when I think about this, I actually think about profiling the engineers who are building this stuff. You have developers, let's profile them, like what are they spending their time on? 'Cause that's really a precious resource right now, right? It's like, it's hard to even hire people fast enough, right? So if you think about profiling people, you have folks that are spending a lot of time trying to get their services communicated properly, to authenticate, to observe these systems, in a way that's sane. And so it's only natural you try to factor that out and make that factored out. You try to amortize the cost of solving that problem across your entire organization. And I think that you've seen people who've been at other companies, and want to recreate something like what they had at Google or Facebook or Twitter or what have you, but they want to do it in a way that meshes with their existing systems. I'm actually not surprised that super, super young companies that are starting with the true green field code base, move in this direction. What has been interesting to me, and although I shouldn't say surprising, this is actually very rational, but you also have companies that are much larger, and we, LightStep has, we have customers that are running a mainframe, alongside legacy Java VMs, alongside microservices, and they're all working in concert to the service application requests from end users. And these things need to talk to each other, and I think what's actually really fun for me, Google gets a lot of credit for building things the right way, I don't know if that's accurate for not, but it's really funny 'cause the problem is actually a lot more interesting outside of Google, because you have to integrate with a much larger surface area and the thing that's so exciting to me about a lot of the technologies that are really taking off here, is that they're designed for that kind of heterogeneity, certainly I've talked about service mesh a million times already here, open tracing also exists specifically because of heterogeneity, we didn't need open tracing at Google because everything was perfectly factored, so it was unnecessary. Outside of Google, it's necessary to have a common API to describe transactions as they propagate, because otherwise, you can't make sense of anything that's happening in your application. This sort of heterogeneity has encouraged projects that standardize at the right layer, and I think those are the ones that are proliferating. >> What is service mesh about now? I mean, how would you describe it, I mean, how would you define, in the world of Kubernetes, in the world we're talking about, for someone just getting, tech person, just getting started. What's the hubbub about with service mesh? What is it? >> Well, I mean, I think at the most basic level, it's something that sits in between any two processes that are communicating in your system, and it sits in between them at a layer where you can observe the application itself. Like, you're able to access application levels, security information application level, primitives like, you know, the particular path you're hitting for any HTP requests, something like that. It's something that sits in between at that layer. Because microservices, you know, I've seen Lyft up close 'cause they're also a customer for LightStep, and to see Envoy deployed at their company is really instructive. It's amazing, I mean it's really amazing. They went from having no integration with our product to having 100% integration with our product by flipping a configuration bit to on, you know. Actually it wasn't even on, they could do it by percentage, I mean, they can roll these things out with perfect, perfect precision. And, I mean, it's an incredibly powerful thing to be able to have that kind of leverage over an entire architecture and that didn't require all their developers to redeploy. This system required the service mesh to redeploy, so you make these sorts of changes without touching application CSCD stuff, you can do all these infrastructural level changes independently from application pushes-- >> All right, >> And that's very powerful. >> So, so hold on, I know Stu wants to get a question in, but let's stop there for a second. Compare and contrast what the old way would have been. >> Stu: Yeah. What would it have taken to do this similar concept that full team had met, assuming they had another architecture. >> I've seen, I mean, you know- >> John: Months, weeks, redeploys... >> So, you know, the model that I've seen at Google where would we make changes to software that was linked into every application would go out with the next release, we would make that change in some central place, I'd say 50% of the services would be deployed within a week, 90% within two weeks, but to get to 99% would take over a year, and so the issue is if you need a change that's going to cut across your entire system, it is not feasible to wait for people to redeploy because there are going to be services that are not being maintained by human beings anymore, and no one's about to volunteer for that chore- >> John: It's a nightmare basically. >> Of reintegrating, taking in months of code changes, making sure it still works and deploys. >> Yeah, they're going to quit right there. I mean, no one wants that. >> It's infeasible. >> Yeah, it's not feasible. >> Ben, I wanted you to be able to share a little bit about founding LightStep, you know what's kind of the need in the market, and what you're seeing from your early customers. >> Sure, LightStep is, it has a pretty simple mission. We aim to deliver insights about very complex production software, which is commonplace at this point. Anyone who's building a meaningful business is building meaningful production software, and that means it's complicated. So that's what we want to do. The way that we're doing that with our first product, LightStep XPM, is by delivering root cause analysis for the symptoms that are of most interest to these businesses, regardless of their application or architecture, as I said earlier, we have customers that run mainframes as well as microservices at the same time, multi-cloud, it doesn't matter. We follow transactions across these distributed services and use those to explain behaviors that they're puzzling over and help them with performance analysis and root cause analysis. >> And what's the relationship between the open source projects and... >> That's a great question. It's not a normal open core model. Open tracing is really an API project that's designed to ease integration with any number of vendors, and open tracing is supported by LightStep of course, but also by Jaeger, and CNCF, it's compatible with Zipkin, it's supported by New Relic and Datadog, I'll give a shoutout to some competitors. We're all in this together in the sense that I think we see that we all have a much bigger market as things like open tracing proliferate, and make it easier to actually observe your own system. I would love to compete in the playing field of solutions and not worry so much about integration, so open tracing is an integration project, it's not our core technology. Our core IP is something that's very powerful, that's designed to absorb a lot of information about these distributed systems and deliver value about that. >> And when I look at your website, and see kind of some of your early customers, I mean, jump out, you know, Lyft, Twilio, Digital Ocean, I mean, these are not kind of your typical companies, is it, you know, fully kind of cloud-native, you know, horn of the web, type companies? >> I'm really glad you asked that. No. >> Stu: Yeah. >> I mean, most of our customers at this point are, have actually never seen a full microservice deployment, certainly not at one of customers. It's always a combination of a monolith in the middle and microservices on the outside, but a lot of our customers are more traditional enterprises that we haven't put on our website for logo rights reasons, but they get a lot value out of the solution, I would say even more value in some cases because they're dealing with a greater diversity of technology generations they need to cut across. >> Yeah, I want to go back. You mentioned the time for people these days and you talk about developers and people building, the fight for talent is huge out there. What are you seeing in your customers? Is that something that you help? How's kind of that interaction? >> Yeah absolutely, I mean, I think, Digital Ocean says they're saving, I think 1000 engineer hours a month or something like that on LightStep. It's a huge timesaver for people who are trying to get to the bottom of issues. So it's a labor issue, but also root cause analysis, I mean, every second counts. Seconds cost hundreds of thousands of dollars for some of our customers for any big outage, and so we help people get those, Twilio's addressing the instance 92% faster after using LightStep, so it's a big change to their root cause analysis. >> Yeah, there was a great quote I saw that said, "When something goes wrong, it used to be you knew, now it turned into a murder mystery." >> Yeah. (laughter) >> Tell the story of why did you start the company. Was there an itch you were scratching? You saying, "Hey, you know, I've seen this movie before, I want to get out there, help customers, I mean, I heard, your mission is really straightforward, clean, good positioning. Why start the company? What was the rationale? What was the motivation? >> That's a very easy one for me. I mean, the reason I left Google was not necessarily to start a company per se, it was that I wanted to have as much of an impact on the industry as I could, I wanted to see things, not just make money and siphon cash away from companies, but actually to change the way that software is built. And the first act for us, this product, is a way for us to kind of get into the tendril, get our system deep into the fabric of an application, and from that point, I'd like to see LightStep really change the way people build software. I think people right now, it's almost like everyone's programming an assembly. Like we're all trying to operate this level that's totally inappropriate, and I'd love to see LightStep be a part of this story for making the industry move up the value chain and really focus on building applications, and that's what I want to see us do. >> You know, we've been saying, first, we have a similar mission along our media business, but one of the things we're seeing, we go to all the shows, sometimes it's like, why is theCUBE covering, you know, Node.js, or why are you covering Hadoop in 2010, why are you, because we see it early, we get in early, as I said, we can see the innovation, we like it, but I got to tell you, we've been seeing recently, I've been seeing it specifically, we see a huge renaissance in software development companies. >> Yeah, for sure. >> And my piece is, I want to test this with you because I think this is going to change the culture, certainly in Silicon Valley and around the world. Certainly with open source is exponentially growing, you know, Zemlin puts that stat up pretty clear. All software development models was crafty and built a product you QA and you'd ship it, it either worked or it didn't work, put some art to it, around ownership, and then AdJail derisked that risk, but you can get it to the market quicker, and you listen to the data, you learn from the data, but it kind of took the craft out of it. You know what I'm saying, almost we're coding and we're iterating, we're on a treadmill, which is good. But now, with what we're seeing here, is that you're getting back to extracting away, to your point, all these services you don't need to worry about anymore. I could actually focus all of my attention on the artisan aspect of the solution. Not UX, love UX design, not that kind of art, but something about software art. What's your reaction to that? Do you see that coming? Because if this continues, we're going to have a whole class of software developers just essentially painting software art, if you will. >> Yeah. >> I mean, that potentially is a scenario. Your thoughts. >> Yes, I agree with that scenario being feasible. I think it's probably more than a couple of weeks away, but I'm really excited about it. I think you're right on the money, I think a lot of the changes that we're seeing allow people to operate more independently and that's what motivates the transitions to microservice in the first place, it wasn't just to rewrite everyone's software for fun, it was because we want everyone to be able to be independent of each other and operate in that mode. The thing that I think is exciting about that vision which I would echo is a lot of the primitives that we see in the marketplace right now allow developers to focus on the semantics of application and the requirements of application which is where all of the interesting stuff is, and what we all get excited about. And I think we do see a lot of the, this number of people here right now, that investment as a community in allowing developers to focus on the logic and nothing more is really tremendous and exciting to me. >> How has community changed? I know you believe in community. Community's more important than ever now, in this new model, 'cause there's so much leverage going on with the software. How important is community and how is it changing and how should it evolve to handle all this awesome growth? >> Yeah I do have some thoughts about that. It's definitely important, I mean no one's going to deny that. I think one of the biggest challenges that I think about anyway in this sphere, has to do with, I referred to this earlier, it's important to figure out what problem you're solving with the community aspect of things, like with open tracing we thought really hard about this, like are we going to focus on, like, the bits and bytes and the wire protocols, or on the part that really needs to be standardized. I think community makes sense when standards are appropriate and standard interfaces are appropriate. I'm actually a little bit skeptical of community driven solutions where it's, you're delivering the entire package as a community because it ends up intersecting in ways that are complex I think with business motivations. I think the most successful projects are areas where the community really must collaborate, which usually has something to do with standardization. Those are the areas where I'm most excited. And then you actually literally, I was talking with Ken Goldberg yesterday, and they intentionally carved out areas for vendors to play, because they don't want to kind of meddle in that are. It's actually better not to meddle in that area. It's actually better- >> It's like microservices, you put the vendors over there and you put core commuters over there. Ben Sigelman, thanks for coming on theCUBE, I appreciate it. Congratulations on LightStep and the success and your talks here. Early community exploding, cloud native is not only a movement, it's clear to everyone, cloud and data and software and open source is making it happen, easier, accelerating velocity. It's theCUBE, doing our part, bringing you the data, here in Texas, I'm John Furrier, with Stu Miniman. We're back with more live coverage after this short break. >> Thank you. (techno music)

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: Live from Austin, Texas, it's the Cube, covering Kubecon and CloudNativeCon 2017. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Linux Foundation, and the Cube's Ecosystem partners. >> Hello and welcome back to the Cube's exclusive coverage live in Austin, Texas here for the three day CloudNative and now two days of KubeCon, Kubernetes conference. We had the second annual conference celebrating the evolution and growth of Kubernetes. I'm John Furrier, my cohost Stu Miniman and next guest Steve Watt, Chief Architect of Emerging Technologies at Red Hat, welcome back to the Cube. Good to see you. >> Thanks for having me, always a pleasure. >> So Red Hat making some good bets, some Kubernetes, not a bad call. >> No, Kubernetes has done wonders for our openship business, absolutely. (laughter) >> So how is this all playing out? We were just talking before we came on camera here about the just the pace of change. You been at Red Hat five years. We interviewed you when you were at HB during the big day to days, boy the world has certainly grown and changed. What has changed in your mind the most the people need to understand? >> I think Kubernetes has been a single biggest driving force to shift all enterprising architecture from scale up to scale out and I think that has just created a whole number of ripple effects across how applications are designed within the enterprise. >> I think that's the big one. >> Yeah. >> So Steve, that whole shift from scale up to scale out has affected lots of parts of the stack, but storage is something you've been working on, something we've been keeping a close eye on and was one of the top items we wanted to kind of dig into this week. Maybe, bring us inside a little bit, what's happening, what's Red Hat's role? >> Sure. >> Help explain. >> Absolutely, one of my favorite topics. It's kind of counterintuitive. I work in a CT office, I run the emerging technologies team, which is sort of the team that does the experiments that help shape and inform our long term strategy. And so you might think, well storage is kind of old news, how does that fit into this CloudNative world? Why does Red Hat care about it so much for their platform? And I think if you look at the CloudNative stack today, you have GKE, the new Amazon Kubernetes service, Azure, et cetera, these are all places where you can run your Kubernetes app, but just in that one place. Red Hat's platform perspective's a little different. We want you to be able to run your platform in an open hybrid cloud, whether that's in Google, in Azure or on premise, on OpenStack or on Bare Metal So you want to be able to run everywhere, but what's the biggest problem to achieving that application portability? It's data locking, so storage becomes cool again. (laughter) We got to solve this problem. >> Because you got to store the data somewhere. >> Steve: Right. >> And that's in the storage devices. >> Right, exactly. >> In the new way, the architecture. >> The new architecture, right? So the problem is, you've got to be very careful that if you want to move, ever you should think upfront about your persistence platform, so that it gives you the freedom to be able to move around. So Red Hat is investing heavily in trying to solve this problem. We've got a few exploratory prototypes that we're actually showing at this conference. And we work in both Kubernetes, building out the storage sub-system there, but also sort of in our products for like container native storage. >> Steve walk us through a little bit because we've been talking about this in the Docker Ecosystem for a bunch of years, where are we, what's being worked on? What still needs to be kind of sorted out? >> So, yeah that's interesting, I think we're finally over the hump where everybody's asking, Who's solving the persistence problem for containers? It used to drive me crazy, that went on for about three years. I think people finally realize, there are solutions. Kubernetes has always had them actually. And so, we've got past sort of the day one, like being able to, dynamically provision. Kind of like you'd see with Cinder in OpenStack. We've got a great storage. we've got a vibrant huge storage ecosystem and at our Kubernetes face to face meetings we have 50 people, they're like a mini conference. So we've got broad engagement from the entire storage ecosystem and that's doing everything that you need sort of on the file level, but there is recent (mumbles) work that we've done in Kubernetes for Service Broker is now the pattern to sort of provision object storage if you need it and most importantly, we've just enabled lock storage in Kubernetes in the 1.9 release that ships this week. And that is really interesting because it opens up the potential to run virtualization with loads on Kubernetes. >> Where's the action for the projects with storage? I heard some hallway rumbles just when I was, the Rook project. >> Steve: Yeah. >> Is that something, what projects, if I'm interested in storage, where do I dive in? Where's the most action for moving the needle for tuning the innovation around storage. >> I think it's if you're a storage vendor it's different if you're a storage consumer so Rook is a project that's focused on providing a sort of an abstraction for software defined storage platforms to run inside Kubernetes. Cluster doesn't take that approach, we've used sort of more of the pure Kubernetes approach. Sort of get to the same place. But Rook is definitely an interesting project in that, it's sort of an inception level project phase. Then for people that are wanting to consume storage, I think Kubernetes is the king of the pack. I obviously have a strong opinion on it, amongst the other container orchestrators, but the amount of investment in allowing people to do more continually more sophisticated features, you know snapshot's in, you know cloning, things like that. And obviously, I'm sure you've heard a little bit about container storage interface. >> Yes. >> CSI, and that makes it a lot easier for storage vendors to build one adapter that works across, Decos, Cloud foundry, Kubernetes, et cetera. >> What's the biggest surprise here for you, because we've been looking trying to read the tea leaves. Obviously Kubernetes, clear the runway, good standardization seeing some commoditization, great adoption, although people can tailor it. A lot of different versions, still early. >> Steve: Yeah. >> We're only two years old conference. >> I know. >> Three years it's been around. What's surprising you right now? What's jumping out at you? >> I think Amazon's announcement yesterday was very interesting. I think the fact that it's heartening to see that there's pure Kubernetes as a service being offered in Azure, Google and Amazon. And I think that quite interesting for affordability standpoint, right. And so I think to me that was a big surprise. Amazon doesn't usually go the pure vanilla open source approach and also the statements they're going to contribute back to Kubernetes, I think is quite interesting as well. So to me that's the one thing that stood out. >> What's going on for the future too? You mentioned you've got to set the roadmap. You guys have an agenda there obviously of installed base. >> Steve: Yeah. >> Now you've got OpenShift doing really well. What are you guys looking at? What's on your radar, how do you see this thing unfolding? What's in your mind? >> Yeah, I think there's a couple of really interesting things. Container orchestration is a legitimate disruption to virtualization. And that it solves the same problem opportunity space but in a fundamentally different manner that reshapes the market. I think the Kubert project is something that we're working on at Red Hat. It's another one of our sort of emerging technology focus areas. And when we enable block storage and it enables virtualization, what it gives us the opportunity to do in Kubernetes is have a single deployed platform that can serve both later adopters and early adopters. So the early adopters with pure container orchestration, but if you're wanting to have the same platform and do virtualization too on it, you can have sort of one investment, one shared experience to be able to do all of those. I think that's pretty cool. (laughter) >> Steve, talk about the customers that are watching or will be hearing over the next few months and a year around how to architectually package this and think about it in their mind. Whether it's a mental model or specifics. 'Cause there's always going to be that time tested trade off between performance, security and so you have, obviously people have VM's, not going away, but containerization where Google say, hey, we don't really care about VM's, we're a container company. There's always still going to be trade offs. >> Steve: Yeah. >> Speed, security. >> Steve: Security. >> So security factors in there. How should a practitioner think about getting their arms around this? >> I think this is the tact that OpenShift takes which is that Kubernetes is a decent project. Despite the huge amount of interest and contributions that we have and its maturity curve as far as, there are different things at attention, like enterprise use cases, versus public cloud use cases. And so we're very focused on our enterprise use cases and sort of enabling that inside OpenShift and bringing OpenShift up as a platform back to sort of enterprise level that our customers would expect. Virtualization platforms are much further down the maturity curve, and so I think that's sort of our approach is that, where that tries to meet our customers where they are. Some organizations have teams that are more advanced. Some that are less advanced. And so we try to offer, you know if you want to go virtualization we've got OpenStack, we've got Rev. If you want you could use this new school Kubernetes based container orchestration and you got teams understand it. (laughter) And you corrupt microservices then we've got a solution for that. >> Well you know that whole theme here is infrastructures is boring storage. It used to be called snorage back in the day. >> Steve: Yeah. >> It's pretty boring but relevant. Most people look at like Lambda from Amazon and some other serverless trends and certainly see them here with ServiceMesh and what not, the abstraction way of infrastructure, it's almost eliminating storage in the mind of the developer, yet it's changing, how are you guys specifically riding that wave? Because one, it's good for developers. >> Steve: Right. >> The velocity of developers increases, but the role of storage is changing. You mention block, people are like, oh block-- >> Yeah. >> It's dead. I mean storage has been dead for like 20 years now? >> Steve: Yeah. >> It keeps growing and growing, but now the role changes to the developer, abstracted away and also more important for automation and some of the dev ops things. What specifically are you guys doing? >> So, I think you said the word role. That's really important right? Like to an application developer what you said is absolutely true, they want to use persistence platforms for storing their data in a cloud native way, okay. However, the maturity code is also important. Not every application developer team is fully microservice based and understands all these architectural patterns. It's a journey, right? So we want to basically give them multiple options along their journey. So that's the one around the application persistence. So if they used to like file storage or object storage, et cetera, like we have our container native storage platform provides that for them from the application persistence level, but from an OpenShift standpoint, an OpenShift is our new platform. It's based on real but it's our new platform, our new service area to build applications and most notably, infrastructure services on. So just like with (mumbles) where we have, we created the opportunity to have a fertile ecosystem around it, we're doing the same with OpenShift, which means that we've got to enable the companies that are providing those persistence platforms. Those message cues, those NoSQL databases, to run on OpenShift. You want to run Cassandra on OpenShift on premise? What do you need underneath the Cassandra? Block storage, direct attached block storage, which we're building in Kubernetes 1.10. >> Steve, any patterns you're seeing between the customers that are being able to embrace really the kind of this new cloud data world versus those that are having challenges? Any advice you can give based on customer interactions and what you're seeing. >> That's a good question. I think, I just have to fall back on the fact that culture is a hard thing to change. It takes a long time. Institutions are persistent and so I think that for what we sort of say to our customers, our guidance on these topics is that, what we try and give you is choice. Depending on where you are on the journey, slowly move our customers through that journey and try to give them a variety of different choices on that. I think personally like with any new disruption, it usually has like 10 x value. Like the one benefit of containers over to machines is you don't have to bring the operating system along every time you create a new container, right? You can much more densely pack a server with containers with virtual machines. Get more resource utilization, but it takes a long time for an application development team to like fully get there. And so, that's the thing I think, is you just got to be judicious about like the right tool at the right time. >> Yeah, the other thing related to that is the pace of change. >> Steve: Yeah. >> I've talked to some of the people that created Kubernetes, the people who are running all this and they're like, I can't keep up with all these projects. What are you finding internally in Red Hat, as well as from your customers? >> Yeah, I think that it's absolutely true. I was just remarking on that a minute ago it's, you know I'm walking around. I hear this great quote, like why do you come to conferences? Do you come to conferences to learn or do you come to conferences to learn about what you need to learn? (laughter) >> Yeah. >> And it's the latter for me, right. And the ecosystem, the CloudNative ecosystem is exploding. And so I think what we try to do at Red Hat is, especially our team. Our goal in Emerging Technologies is to look 18 months down the road and pick the winners. Like community vitality standpoint, but also like the right technology. And there's this plethora of choices that we need to wave through and what we tend to do is distill that down into our platform that's something our customers can rely on. And that's reliable and we've picked the right project, but it's a big challenge. Like there's so much happening and even in storage it's becoming challenging. >> Steve Watt the Chief Architect of Emerging Engineering at Red Hat thanks for coming on the Cube, appreciate your perspective. It's an architectural game right now. A lot of people putting these new architectures together. It's cultural change. Congratulations on your success with OpenShift and everything else. >> Steve: Yeah, thank you very much. >> Alright, and more coverage here on the Cube after this short break. >> Steve: Thanks. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: Live, from Austin, Texas, it's The Cube, covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2017, brought to you by Red Hat, the Linux Foundation, and The Cube's ecosystem partners. >> Okay, welcome back everyone, we are here live in Austin, Texas for KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2017. This is The Cube's exclusive coverage, I'm John Furrier, the co-founder, of SilconANGLE Media, analyst here with SilconANGLE Media, next guest, Justin Garrison, co-author of the Cloud Native Infrastructure book. How about us wrap up day one with two days of live coverage, Justin, welcome to The Cube. >> Justin: Yeah, thanks for having me. >> Stu, day one wrap-up, guys what are you seeing? Justin, what's your perspective? >> There are a ton of announcements today, it was kind of crazy. It's amazing being part of the CNCF community and everything, and everything happens in the open, but then there's so much other stuff in the ecosystem that just happens and gets announced. >> I mean, real accelerated growth, if you look at KubeCon, this is the second year doing the event, last year's kind of an inaugural event, the first year before that was just an idea, side break out kind of thing going on, just forming, and then just took off. Obviously containers with DockerCon, and Container Ecosystem, kina floating that boat up. Kubernetes, I mean those tracks are huge, the agenda looks like, it's like a university of geeks here, I mean, this has been ramped up pretty fast. What's your take on that? >> I mean, I was at KubeCon last year, and about a thousand people was a great little environment, and a lot of stuff that was still emerging, and being discovered, and now it's everyone is in the middle of it, and trying to learn as fast as they can to pick up these projects, and see how to actually make this stuff production-ready, and how to actually use it. And not just in the environments that they used to be, they're rewriting all of their environments, it's no longer a here's how I run my app the old way, and a VM statically, it's I you know, we're beyond running containers, and they realize that's not the end goal anymore. >> Justin, when we were talking to you before the segment here, and you're like oh, I've been working on Kubeternes for like two years more and everything, and it's funny in the career. It's like oh, well two years, in some ways it's a long time, in CloudNative time it's a long time, in career wise, it's a rather short time, give us a little bit about what you've been seeing, you know, what's interesting, you mentioned there's a whole lot of announcements, I mean, obviously new projects spinning up, new, new releases, so you know, if you could give us a little bit of a historical view. >> Yeah, I mean from last year, it was really hard to get a cluster. It was something that was really, like you had to know what you were doing to make Kubernetes run, and make it highly available and production-ready. And now, club dividers give you a button, you click it, how big do you want it, how much do you want to auto-scale it, and it's all about the application, and bringing business value to whoever's running it to say, like, my application runs here, and now there's more involved with Istio and these network proxies that give you more resiliency in the claw providers, because people don't run their own infrastructures much anymore, it's all in a cloud, and they don't care about the underlying infrastructure, they care about their apps. >> Yeah, so you tell them about CloudNative infrastructure, so one of the things we're teasing out here is, you know, Kubernetes, all this CloudNative stuff will make it easy to be able to do the application, but you know, infrastructure, it matters. I love Dan Cone's line in the Keynote this morning is you know, it's exciting times for boring infrastructure, so you know, talk about that layer, what's important about infrastructure, and bring us in a little bit, you know, why you wrote the book with Kris Nova, and you know, how that fit. >> Really wanted to write it to help people not make a lot of mistakes to help them kind of level up and get a head start in building the infrastructure in the cloud, cause it's not something that they own anymore, it's not this server that they rack, and they take care of it for years. It's something that comes and goes, it's quick, you know, you have to design for failure and resiliency, and that layer of infrastructure isn't important because you don't run it anymore, but it is important to build a platform on top of that that your applications are still resilient. There's no more scheduled down-times in the cloud, like websites aren't gone, you know, Sundays at midnight. >> Yeah, don't you have to be pretty brave, cause you don't own it anymore, but if something goes wrong, you know, you're the one whose job's on the line. >> You own the failure. >> Justin, talk about the feedback that you might have for the industry. Stu and I were looking at the growth, we certainly love the excitement, but they're still running as fast as they can, they're pedaling as fast as they can, they're trying to introduce all these services. You see some good news here, some new releases coming out, some key services for monitoring, tracing, and whatnot, but what do they need to do better, in your opinion as a practitioner, someone who's out in the trenches, what's the critical analysis, in a good way, constructive criticism, what needs to happen? >> Right, moving forward, I mean there was this, you know, since configuration management, everyone said infrastructure is code, and really we need to level up to be, Kris actually coined this to me in the book, was infrastructure is software. Where it is a piece of software that's running that you declare that has a two-way relationship. It's not get repository that statically defines things, it's a declarative thing that mutates the infrastructure and talks back to the user so that things can auto-scale, and have same defaults and you don't have to do every last little piece of it, but the declarative nature and policy-based roles in all the infrastructure you're building, and everything around your application, and with your application need to be defined and controlled by software and not people anymore. >> But what needs to happen to make that, obviously STN, software-defined data center, we've seen a lot of that go on at the network level's door right now, are they there, what's the progress meter on that? How would you peg the progress of the evolution, making that happen, cause that's really what people want, I mean at the end of the day, that's what Lambda is for Amazon, that's what serverless is, that's what virtual Cubelets are for. >> Yeah, and it's funny, cause you can run Lambda in a very non-CloudNative way, I mean you can have, you know, individual deploying code to Lambda, and not checked in to get anywhere, you can do all those things, you can go against the CloudNative model very easily, and so it's interesting just seeing that evolution as well, of people actually adopting how Netflix has been doing it for a long time. >> Yeah, we should call it SoftwareNative. (laughter) I mean, but this is kind of what we're getting at, I mean, people on the buyer side are looking and saying oh, I get it, I see the new wave coming, I want to get out there, I want to ride this, and they want to kind of vet out whose pretender, who's the player, how should businesses evaluate the pretenders and the players in your mind? >> Moving to the cloud should be, you know, and easy sell. Like people building data centers anymore, you have to have immense scale to really care about those things, and really get any sort of benefit. If you can beat Amazon and Google and Microsoft at the pricing game, then you're still not ahead because you still have all the people managed. They have so many thousands of people that are doing this stuff that you can't keep up. And so, I mean, just adopting one of those clouds, and not worrying about the vendor lock-in. But yes, Kubernetes brings a lot that you can move from cloud to cloud, but really it's about moving to a cloud provider that provides what your application needs, and at the rate of innovation that you need, and if you can match those two things, if you can stay innovation-matched, I mean Amazon is probably going to pull ahead of you, because they're doing this as their job. >> If I hear you correctly, what I'm hearing is that look for people that are players, that are constantly introducing more innovative services? >> If that's what you need, if that's what you need. If you do not need a high rate of innovation, if you have a lot of policy, or a lot of rules and regulations around your industry, then you probably will get lost in Amazon, and they'll move ahead, they'll move too far for you. And so, you need to find what matches for your industry, and your application. >> Justin, 4,000 people here, over 4,000 people here, for those that didn't come, what are they missing, what's exciting you the most, you know, is it the hallway track, is it, you know, some of the special interest groups, you know, what are you excited that you've seen so far, and are looking forward to seeing? >> Really missing out, I just love the community. I mean, every talk is recorded, if you really care, like, go watch them on YouTube, they're great, like every one of these things is fantastic, but engaging with people, meeting face to face, cause a lot of people are online. Like I mean, on Twitter, or on social networks, like thousands of people here, aren't, and you get to meet those people and find out what their struggles are and what they're working on, and then learn from them, either you know, where they're headed, or where they were before. >> I mean, you can meet the people who write the code, and they're going to give you the straight scoop, or tell you they don't know it, it's real authentic. >> Yeah, any things that you're hearing, kind of what's the buzz, what's the pain point, you know, that you're hearing from the community so far? >> A lot of people still aren't in cloud, they're still doing it themselves, standing up a cluster on pram, you know, has struggles, Kubernetes cluster that is. I mean, you can't really adopt some of these patterns, until you have an API that declares all of your infrastructure, and that's still hard for people. And OpenStack was going to bring some of that stuff, and sometimes it did, sometimes it didn't, but really it's about people and processes, and getting those things right, and being able to change the culture of your environment, and for your applications, that's what's important for the business, and that's where you can learn from people face-to-face and actually talk to them, and not just read a blog post about it, and just hear a one-way tell me what you did, I need feedback, and I need this feedback from whoever's doing it to say, well, why did you do that, and that's really important in the community to learn. >> Well, one of the preferential I was looking for, it's one thing to say, you know, some of these CloudNative companies, like, you see in Netflix, you see in Lyft, you know these are companies where, you know, digital is their business. What about, you know, more traditional businesses, you know, are they able to make that change, is it too challenging for them, you know, what are you seeing? >> The people and the culture's the hardest thing to change, it always is. And if they can change the people, the Keynote today, Netflix was talking about the tools influence your culture, and if you can influence your culture positively, and do that intentionally to actually change the people, then absolutely, they totally can pivot and make that change, but again, do they need to? I mean, if there's other government restrictions, or something else that like, they could move too fast and cause other problems for their industry. >> What's a practitioner dream scenario right now out there that you see, cause you made a good point, sometimes you might want to have more services, sometimes you might want to pull back so it kind of depends on the perspective, but generally speaking, CloudNative Kubernetes, offers an opportunity, what's the nirvana, what's the ideal use case for practitioners these days, what's the key things that need to be rolled out or on the table should be taken advantage of? >> You mean as far as technology goes, or? >> Whether it's technology, whether it's mindset, culture, people, personnel, package, ops. >> I mean, if we can change the people mindset of how they do things, how they deploy applications, and how they manage those applications, the technology would fall into place, I believe, because the people would drive towards this way of working, and then they would build those tools just naturally. A lot of times, like with Kubernetes, Google was in that mindset, and so they did that, they had that culture, and now they're trying to share that with everyone else, and then everyone else has to learn from the tool, rather than the people building. >> Did you see the Netflix talk on the Keynote was culture and tech, and I think that's a real good point, because if you think about your other point, if you got a lot of compliance issues, you might not want to go fast, you really want to move fast, or you like a, you know, fast dot com or web services company, you might want to compete on value and services. Know your culture and hire right. >> Know what your benefit is of your application, and what environment it plays in, and then you can, from there, figure out. >> Well that's been a struggle for the DevOps world is they're taking a square and trying to put it in a round hole, you know what I'm saying? >> Everyone want to move fast, but should everyone move fast, I don't know. It depends. >> Yeah, alright Justin, well thanks so much for coming on. >> Thank you. >> Biggest surprise in this whole Kubernetes movement for you, just in terms of shock factor, or blew you away, did you fall out of your chair, share some color, personal perspective. >> The community is just humongous now. I mean, joining it a couple years ago, it was pretty small, and things were really difficult, and now I play with, you know, clusters in Amazon and Google and Microsoft and just one quick button, I play with it for a few hours and I throw it away, and I got a bill for like four cents, I was like that was amazing, like this would take so long, you know, a couple years ago, and the growth of the community around that, just to be able to say like this is easy now, let's level up what we're doing and working on, and figuring out where the benefit is. >> When we were talking earlier in The Cube, and we've been saying for a couple months, this is going to bring back more time for the developers, to bring craftsmanship back to the development process, bringing artistry and artisan kind of, real software development, not like UX stuff, but like really solution-driven. >> Focus on the business application, where's the application in the business struggle and don't worry about the infrastructure. >> Justin Garrison, co-author of the Cloud Native Infrastructure book, it's on the web, check it out, thanks for coming on The Cube, thanks for sharing your perspective. Day one wrap- up here in Austin Texas for KubeCon and CloudNativeCon, I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching, see you tomorrow for day two coverage. Thanks for watching.

>> Narrator: Live from Austin, Texas. It's theCUBE, covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2017. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Linux Foundation, and theCUBE's ecosystem partners. >> Hello everyone. Welcome back to theCUBE's exclusive coverage, here live in Austin, Texas for KubeCon and CloudNativeCon. I'm John Furrier, the co-founder of SiliconANGLE Media with my co-host Stu Miniman, Next is Nigel Poulten, who's the author of the Kubernetes book, also container guru, trainer, been in the business for a long time in the community. Great to have you on for our intro. >> Thank you >> Stu, keynote, let's get down to it. What was the big highlights? >> Yeah, well, first of all John, we've officially entered KubeCon Days here. So CloudNativeCon was yesterday. We've got two more days of KubeCon. Kelsey Hightower, you know, we had him on theCUBE yesterday. Phenomenal speaker, everybody's looking forward to him. Lines to talk to him. Made sure that there was a standing ovation before and after his. Very demo heavy. I mean, you know, this group loves it. There were a lot of, you know, great pithy lines. Arguments over, you know, which is the best language, which is the best way to do things? Knocking on things like YAML. So, it was definitely a fun, geeky discussion. I'm a big Game of Thrones fan. So I loved to see season seven delivered on Kubernetes. >> What was the summary of the keynote? What was the take? >> So I think from my perspective, the summary was Kubernetes is boring. Which translates to us generally, as in it's maturing. It's something that you might want to be able to trust in your production environment, if you're an enterprise. I mean, look, as a technology guy we always think we like to know the details, the weeds. And we like to play with YAML and stuff like that. But at the end of the day, business is down and developers tend not to want to. They want a smooth pipeline. And that's boring, and so boring is good. >> Yeah, and I do want to poke at it a little bit, Nigel, I definitely want your opinion on this, because there are certain technologies we say, "Oh right, it's reached that boring phase", which means it's kind of steady state. Kubernetes is not like One Dot Nine. Coming into the show it was like, how complex it is. Oh my God, there's all these things above and below. Yin gave a really nice keynote showing kind of a layer cake there. >> Yeah. >> I think maybe the Kubernetes layer might be, it's stable enough and used, and people can use it. But this ecosystem by no means is it boring. >> No >> And there's lots of things to make out. What are you seeing? >> Totally, and it's that definition of boring, really. So I would say boring would translate into usable. But you're right, in no way is it boring in any sense. In fact, it's exciting and it's dangerous as well. >> Yeah, and ... >> So I'll give you an example, right. So Kubernetes is massively successful. I think we all grock that at the moment, okay. But it's almost potentially going to be a victim of it's own success. It's always at one of the many summits that was going on before KubeCon and CloudNativeCon started, and it was about networking and there was a bunch of guys here from big carriers and they really want to take this simple networking model that Kubernetes currently has and make it fit their needs, which would make it really complex, dare I say, almost OpenStack Neutron. (laughing) And I think there's so many people here at this conference right now that want to take Kubernetes and use it for their own purposes. And as successful as it is, and as much uptake as it's got, there is a potential danger there, I think, that it explodes out of control, and I don't want to knock OpenStack, but becomes difficult and not what we want it to be, and that's dangerous for them. >> Nigel, you bring up a great point here, because something we've been looking at is every time we abstract or make this new design model, it's "Oh well". We want to make sure the developer doesn't have to worry about that infrastructure. Clayton from Red Hat, we had him on theCUBE, and he talked about it in the keynote, boring means when I write my code I don't have to think about the infrastructure, but networking and storage. Networking some of the basis pieces are done but there's a lot of activity in that space, and storage, we're still arguing over what Container Native Storage should be, what CloudNative storage should be. So it's still to my definition, it's not boring. That's the direction, and I like it. Kind of was where we talked about invisible infrastructure. >> Yeah >> What do you see? You've got a heavy background on that side too. >> So I think I quite like this space that networking is at within Kubernetes. It's simple, and that works for me, right. Storage is certainly, it's still playing catch up there, and I think a lot of decisions still need to be made. The future, in my opinion, is still not clear there. But I think a lot of games have got to be played to say, now how far do we take networking, and how far do we take storage and things like that so that it, in the one sense doesn't balloon out of control, but on the other side you do want it to meet more use cases than just the very basic use cases. So, I mean, that plays back to my idea that that danger aspect of Kubernetes, it seems to have won in the orchestration space at the moment, but I think the road ahead, there still loads of potholes, and there's tight bends, and there's cliff edges and things that we still could fall off, and that's exciting. >> Nigel, your dangerous comment reminds me of some of the early days of V-M-ware. >> Nigel: Right >> You know, people that would get in there, they'd do some really cool things, they'd write it up, share it with the community. And absolutely, it feels like that, almost even bigger. >> Yeah, like the top layer that interfaces with the developers and things like that, that's getting pretty stable. But underneath, I mean, that is a happening place underneath right now, and I imagine it's going to be a happening place for quite a few years. >> What about service meshes and also pluggable architectures? Because that seems to be the answer to the dangerous question. Oh don't worry about it, carriers and what not. You can just build pluggable architectures, no one's going to get hurt. >> Nigel: Yeah >> Not ready for prime time? What's your thoughts? >> So I think service mesh is almost certainly in my opinion, the hot topic of the conference so far. I like this idea of it getting born and stuff, and that's good for the project. But if there's one take away, if it's something that you're not quite clued upon at the moment, go away and look into service mesh. I've got to do a lot of that myself, to be perfectly honest. But this whole idea of running like sidecar containers and what have you, inside of the pods, alongside your application to look at your ingress traffic, your incoming traffic, your outgoing traffic. It's all cool and it can add so much functionality and make it so much more usable to a lot of users. But at the same time there's not ... I don't know, right, look I'm a little bit old fashioned. I remember the days of deploying agents on servers. And we would have server bills that had agent upon agent upon agent. And we have this backlash in the industry of like, you're not bringing your product in vendor x, y or z, okay. If it deploys an agent, we're going fully agentless here. We're sick of managing all these different agents in our stack, and I wonder again, playing to the danger topic here, that like, are we going to end up having loads of these sidecar containers in our pods that are affectively the modern day agents that we then have to manage, and consume resources >> Explain the sidecar generation, it's important. Take a minute to explain the dynamic because containerization has been around for awhile, Google and everyone else knows that. >> Nigel: Yeah. >> But Docker really put it on the map. Now the commoditization of containers with Kubernetes. What's this sidecar thing about? >> Nigel: Okay >> Quick, take a minute to explain to the folks. >> Right, so in the Kubernetes world I guess the atomic unit of deployment, the equivalent of a V-M from the V-M World space would be the pod, which is effectively a container, right? But within that pod you run your application container. And I think for most people you run one container inside of that pod, it's your application, right? What we're starting to see now is, and Kubernetes has always had this ability to run multiple containers inside of a pod. Most people don't do it. And it seems that a lot of the external projects, and a lot of the third party vendors are starting to pick up on this and say, "Alright, well let's run another container "Inside of that pod". It's not your actual application and we call it a sidecar container. And it adds functionality and what have you, but is also potentially eats through resources, it makes your deployments maybe more complicated. I mean it's always a trade off, isn't it? >> Yeah >> You get additional functionality but it's never for free. >> Yeah it's overhead. Alright, talk about the customer guys. What we saw in keynote, we saw HBO on stage. How are customers using Kubernetes? Because I'm trying to put my finger on it. I love Orchestrate, I know what that does, and I understand the benefits, but how are actually people using it today? >> So I think it's a little bit like the whole container thing, right? The early adopters of the Netflix's and the HBOs and the people like that that have got large engineering teams, that have a lot of developers on staff, they're really just comfortable going and taking these new technologies, and rolling them themselves, and they've got this appetite for danger, again within their organization almost. Their risk taking organizations, right. They're all over the containers and the Kubernetes. The more traditional enterprises I think are still kicking the tires. They're still throwing out the occasional new project within the organization and saying, "Let's test the waters with this new feature "That we want to add to our main product", or "We've got something new, "Let's try containers and Kubernetes." They're certain, at least the ones that I speak to, certainly not at the phase where they're taking their legacy apps. >> HBO was using it for like traffic, identifying ingress, you mentioned that earlier, I mean basic stuff. Not a lot of heavy lifting, or is it? >> Well, I think the HBO, I mean ... How much they ran the season seven of Game of Thrones on Kubernetes. I mean, I'm sure there was some non-Kubernetes stuff in there as well, but it seemed like from the presentation pretty much, well, a lot of that stuff was running containers and Kubernetes, and lets be fair, when it comes to HBO, Game of Thrones is like their, it's their killer product at the end of the day, isn't it? And so they've taken a risk there with that. >> Yeah >> But again you know HBO, a rare... >> There's a lot of online viewers, by the way on that too. >> Yeah. >> With HBO Go. >> Oh, an insane number! But I would say compared to a traditional enterprise they're a risk taking organization. They live in the Cloud. They like living on the edge. They're willing to take risks with new technologies to push the product forward. >> Alright, so I want to get your guys' thoughts on a tweet I saw out there. "Think of Kubernetes as the colonel "For modern distributed systems. "It's not about zero ops, it's about op power tools "to unlock developer productivity." Craig McLuckie from Heptio mentioned that on stage. Really kind of rallying around Kubernetes. Thoughts on that quote? What does that mean? >> So I mean John, you know there was for a while people saying, "How do we deprecate? "Or even go to kind of noOps?" Absolutely, many of the keynotes talked about who's deploying them and who's running them. We're not talking about eliminating ops. Even when I can have a voice assistant help roll things out, they're still absolutely a major piece of who needs to run this, but the right things to the right part of the organization. >> Yeah, I think instead of using the word colonel maybe use the word Linux, you know. Looking at Kubernetes as the Linux of the Cloud, and that's not my term, I've heard other people say it. But it's open source for a start like Linux is, it's got a great thriving community of people contributing to it. You can fork it, you can do what ever you want with it, but if you're going to deploy a CloudNative application right now, then Kubernetes is that substrate. You've just got to look at what came out of re:Invent. So A-W-S is now offering a native Kubernetes hosted service, obviously Google does it, Azure does it with Microsoft. They're all picking up on this realizing that people deploying CloudNative apps, they're going to be deploying it on Kubernetes. >> Thoughts about Red Hat. I just saw Gabe Monroy, the keynote, Stu. Red Hat's contribution to hardening Kubernetes cannot be overstated. C-C OpenShift And we had Bryan Gracie on yesterday. I mean OpenShift, what a bet. Microsoft betting heavily on Kubernetes. Google obviously sees this as an opportunity. Multi-Cloud fantasies out there somewhere, but that's what customers are kind of asking for, not yet in tangible product, but this is interesting. You've got Red Hat, the king of the enterprise, OpenSource. >> Nigel: Absolutely, yeah. >> No debate about that. Microsoft and Google, old guard with Microsoft and then new guard in Google. Really if they don't throw a line at the main Cloud trend with Kubernetes, they could be left in the dust. So I see a lot of things at play. How is the Red Hat and the Kubernetes investment paying off? How do you guys see that playing out? Good strategic move, headroom to it? What comments and caller commentary on that? >> Well I think if you compare Red Hat to Microsoft, if you don't mind me doing that, Microsoft has a cash cow in Windows in the past and I think it quickly realized that the cash cow was not going to live forever, and they invested heavily in Azure. Red Hat live a lot, I guess as well, off support contracts and things like that, the Red Hat enterprise Linux. How long of a tail that has, I'm not sure. So certainly they're doing at least, they're looking in the right direction at least by investing heavily in Kubernetes. If they want to go in and be the enterprise's trusted Kubernetes partner, I think they've got a great story. They've contributed a ton to it. They're already in the door at most enterprises, and I think you couple those two things together if the enterprise is going to adopt Kubernetes at some point. I'm not saying they've go the best story, but they've got a pretty decent story. >> Alright, in the last minute I want to ask both you guys this question because it's been kind of on my mind, I've been thinking about it. Maybe I'm overstretching here but three day conference, one day to CloudNative, two days to Kubernetes, KubeCon. Why? More important? Growing community? CloudNative I think, would be probably stronger sessions. Is it because there's more emphasis on the Kubernetes? >> Kubernetes is the core, Kubernetes is what started the C-N-C-F. >> John: Yeah >> All the other projects really build off to it. I think it's pretty... >> It needs more attention. >> Kubernetes, I mean, while there's ... You know I love Kelsey's line this morning. He looked out at the audience he says, "I think everyone that's running Kubernetes "In the globe is here." So, there's jokes about how many people are actually running in production >> Yeah, they're probably here. >> So look, there's still so many people that are getting the Kubernetes 1-0-1. The whole CloudNative, all of these other projects are all building off of it. I think it's really straight forward on there. We even heard, do we call it the C-N-C-F? Do we rename it to something that's a little more Kubernetes focused? Because CloudNative gets talked about some, there's service mesh, absolutely Nigel, it was the buzz coming into the show. I hear those sessions are overflowing here. We didn't even get to talk about, there's like another alternative to Istio that's there. >> And Lou Tucker, by the way, affirmed that same thread yesterday about the service mesh. Nigel, final word for you on this segment. How big order of magnitude and important is Kubernetes? I mean given you've seen, talk about agent-ism in the old days, and all the ways that have come, that's been kind of incremental proving balls been moved down the field here and there. And some big chunk yardage, if you will, use this football analogy. How big, because I've seen Kubernetes just go from here to here. >> Yeah >> Really move the need along the community, it's galvanized. How important is Kubernetes, from an order of magnitude, when we look back a few years from now, what are we going to be saying? "Hey, remember KubeCon in 2017?" How important is Kubernetes? >> Well, can I say I think it's really early days, okay? And I like the analogy that it is the Linux of the Cloud or of CloudNative, okay? But I think there's danger in that as well because the world is changing so fast now. I mean Linux has lived for a very long time, okay. Will Kubernetes live that long or will it be replaced by something else? It probably will be, but I do feel these are early days, and I think it has got a long stretch ahead. A long stretch as in like... >> John: Yeah. >> Good four or five years. And within two to three years, you know, just about every organization in my opinion is going to have some Kubernetes in it. >> And the beginning signs of maturity's coming. Stack Wars too, all the vendors really trying to figure out, strategically it's like a 3-D chess match right now. Open source is kind of like arbiter of this, really good stuff. I think it's going to be super important. Thanks for the commentary. kicking off day two of Cube exclusive coverage here at KubeCon. CloudNativeCon was yesterday. Two days of KubeCon. We'll be back with more live coverage. From theCUBE, I'm John Furrier. Stu Miniman and Nigel Poulten after this short break. (light techno music)