>> From the SiliconANGLE Media Office in Boston, Massachusetts, it's theCube. (techno music) Now here's your host, Dave Vellante. >> Hi everybody, this is Dave Vellante and welcome to this special Cube Insights, powered by ETR. We've been running these Breaking Analysis Segments and today we're going to talk about some spending data that shows that there's continued interest in hyperconverged infrastructure. So we've been running these segments over the last several weeks with our partner ETR. They've got a database of about 4,500 IT Practitioners and CIOs. They go out quarterly and ask spending intentions. So we've been sharing that, along with our opinions. These are completely independent segments. I want to disclose that a number of the companies that we're talking about today: Nutanix, VMware, Dell EMC, Cisco, HPE. They sponsor theCube, but they have absolutely no input into editorial. They don't affect our opinion in any way, shape or form. So let's get into it. I'm here with Stu Miniman. Stu is an expert in this field. He's covered the space. Stu, let's look at some of the fundamentals. What do people need to know... Alex, if ya put up the slide, Stu, maybe you could talk to it. >> Yeah. Dave, thanks. I've been watching you have some fun with this. I enjoyed swimming in some of the data here and as you know, Dave, we've been watching since before hyperconverged infrastructure, or HCI, was a term that everybody talked about. We've been looking at how these hyperscale trends are going to impact the Enterprise. We put out our server SAN research years and years ago, so we know all these companies really well. And despite the latest AI and cloud and everything, the data shows, HCI, the simplification of the data center, building out what we would call True Private Cloud is important today. So right, we wanted to know when you look at the data, first of all, how are the vendors doing? Who are the leaders in this space here? There were a whole number of startups that came in this space. When we first analyzed the market it was companies like Microsoft and VMware that owned the operating system we thought would be hugely important. If you look in the big names this environment: Dell partnered with everyone, of course they bought Dell, bought EMC, which included a stake in VMware. What's that relationship with Nutanix? How is that shaping the market? As well as how is cloud impacting things? Both from a spending standpoint, has cloud sucked away revenue from HCI as that specter has overhung everybody in the IT space? And also, how does HCI fit into multicloud and how does that fit? >> Okay, great. So thanks for that setup, Stu, now let's get into some of the data. Alex, if you bring up the slide, the next slide. This is spending intentions for Nutanix, VMware and some other vendors. I'll go through that. But it's basically showing Nutanix and VMware are fighting it out. You know they're in this internecine battle and in social, and (chuckles) there's a war goin' on, because there's big money to be made here. So for those of you who are familiar with these segments, this is data from Enterprise Technology Research, from their July 2019 Spending Intentions Survey. So they're asking about spending intentions for the second half of 2019. The end of the survey, out of the 4,500 people in the panel, 1,068 responded to this survey. So on the left hand side you see the vendors: Nutanix, VMware with vSAN, Dell EMC with VxRail, specifically. Then SimpliVity, and then Springpath, or Cisco. So what the chart shows is what we call, Net Score. And net score is calculated by taking the red, on the bar, which is, we're going to leave the platform, that's the dark red. The lighter red, which is, we're going to spend less in the second half. The gray, which their spending's going to be flat. The dark green, or the evergreen, which says, we're going to increase spending. And the lime green, which I'm going to add to the platform. You take the green, minus the red, you get net score. Higher the net score, the better. You can see, Nutanix and VMware with vSAN are leading the pack. And then we'll go through that. But then you see, Shared Accounts. That's the number of indications for spending that they received out of those 1068. So Stu, what is this data telling you? >> So first of all, Dave, it confirmed kind of the general market share numbers that we hear out there. The vendors that track that on quarterly. VMware has the most customers, has the largest revenue, and their largest partner for that, of course, is Dell. VMware and Dell go to market, joint product development, joint engineering, joint go to market and it's the biggest piece of vSAN, so that's where we specifically wanted to look at the VxRail. And vSAN and VxRail, doing very well. They're adding new customers; was interesting to me that you saw VxRail kind of ramping up a little more on the, attracting new companies, but also looked to be losing some on the tail end of the dark red. As opposed to vSAN in general, is a little bit more stable. We know how many thousands of customers they have out there, and Vmware's a software story as opposed to VxRail is that full appliance. Nutanix is the second horse in this two-horse race that we're really talking about here, from HCI. There's some discussion in the marketplace after two quarters being down, is Nutanix showing weakness? What's happening there? The most recent quarter announcement was that Nutanix is doing well, seems to... They had a little bit of change as they're going through their move to a software model and sorting things out with sales and marketing in their channel. The data here shows that the second half of the year looks good for Nutanix. So to some of the questions I asked in the first slide, Dave, Nutanix and VMware, of course the clear leaders in this space. SimpliVity, which was of course bought be HP, Springpath which is the hyperflex from Cisco, are far behind those two out there. And it seems that even though Dell and VMware are fighting, very much with Nutanix, that is not heavily dampening Nutanix's from the respondents in this survey. >> Okay, and just a word on the data, so you see 184 shared accounts for Nutanix, 174 for VMware and down the line. Only 42 for SimpliVity and only 18 for Springpath, and Cisco. It's an indication of the size of the install base, obviously the more shared accounts, the more mentions, the larger the install base. Again, they're statistically significant; ETR does a very good job of that. Let's look Stu, at... Oh, actually I want to make another point here. So how are these net scores? Well let's put 'em in context. The hottest net scores we've seen recently are: Snowflake, and UiPath, with 80% plus, net score. Okay, so that's really, they're off the charts, they're growing like crazy. We saw Salesforce with 55%, so, and Workday sort of in there as well. Companies that are growing share. So SAP in the 30% range, and so you see the Dell EMC, VxRail, that's kind of holding serve. It's not like, dramatically gaining share, but they're growing a little bit and then-- >> And I think it's a lot, Dave, it shows to the maturity of this market. HCI is not new, both Nutanix and VMware have thousands of customers, specifically with V's then we're talking VMware. So it was more, when I saw some of your charts, Microsoft has a similar net score. >> Right >> Well liked, good install based, still growing and the like. And brings in the discussion of when we did some cross section of the analysis looking at cloud companies and how does this impact their public cloud spend; is this detracting if this customer's also doing public cloud? And the long and the short of it is VMware and Nutanix are pretty much the same if not actually a little bit better when you talk about a customer that's looking at their overall cloud spend. So to me that really signals that both VMware and Nutanix are doing a good job into how their solution fits into the customer's overall hybrid cloud strategy. >> All right, let's take a look at the next slide, which talks to time series. So this is hyperconverged infrastructure spending intentions again, for the second half of 2019, over time. So the July '19 Survey you can see is the most recent one. We go all the way back to January '17 and you can see Nutanix on the top, VMware or vSAN on the bottom. We just selected those two. We're just repeating the net score and the shared accounts. And you can see these things tend to bounce around a little bit. You can see Nutanix maintains a lead, but the market's startin' to converge. These two companies are coming together. We hear a lot about vSAN doing very well, it's kind of held on. You can see a slight downward pressure in July, in the July survey. It's unclear what that means. That could be an indication of just some uncertainty in the marketplace. Some economic macro concerns. Tariffs, potential headwinds there, so there could be some uncertainty there. But what do you takeaway from this slide, Stu? >> Yeah, first of all right. As you show, Dave, VMware is a bit more steady, Nutanix gone up for bit and come down. Both of them stayed relatively stable. Somewhere between kind of the 45 and 55 lately. A little bit, if you look at the overall trend, Nutanix is down. VMware could surpass them from the net score in the future, if this trend holds. But both of them doing quite well. When you looked at all the other vendors in there, of course the scale is just showing 40-70%, if you put all the others, which are down much lower, you can see once again, that kind of the clear leadership. These two companies, just strong lead. Does not look like there any challengers in this space that are ready to be a clear number three yet, in the market. >> But Nutanix at one point had no competition. >> Yeah. >> Okay, now vSAN comes in and of course-- >> Oh no, absolutely. So no, SimpliVity and Scale Computing, and there were a whole host of startups. There's all the brand new startups in the space. Everything from little companies like Diamante, Pivot3, who was around doing this before it came. So there's always been a lot there, but Nutanix is the one that separated from the pack. The only one in this space that's gone IPO. But VMware's there, Microsoft won that, they rebranded their Azure Stack HCI for what they put in the data center last year. So expect Microsoft partnering with all of the big server manufacturers to push farther into HCI, but really has not directly impacted this market too much, just yet. >> But there's definitely been some pressure on Nutanix from an earning standpoint, the stock's been hit. You've had some executive departures. There's some rumors about acquisition with Google. Your thoughts on-- >> Yeah, definitely. So John Furrier just had Dheeraj Pandey, the CEO of Nutanix, in our Palo Alto studio, leading up to the Copenhagen show for Nutanix that I will be at. Sure. Sunil Potti who was basically the number two at Nutanix, is now working for Thomas Kurian, TK, over at Google Cloud. My indication from what I hear, he is not over there to help broker a deal. Sunil had a great run at Nutanix, there was a clean break there, but there is a mostly new executive team at Nutanix. Now a couple of years past the IPO and the team at Nutanix, they have their platform. The have a bunch of SaaS offerings that they're doing there. Do they have a relationship with Google? Absolutely! They had Diane Greene at one of their events a couple of years ago. They did joint engineering. But I actually saw that engineering effort cool off a little bit in the last year or so since the new regime came on in Google Cloud. So does Nutanix have a lot of Enterprise accounts and know how to work with the Enterprise and could that be a boon to Google? Absolutely! But the personnel of a Nutanix executive over at Google, and Brian Stevens who's the CTO of Google Cloud being on the Board of Nutanix? I do not think that that is telegraphing that an acquisition is going to happen. It could. We see lots of big acquisitions. Nine or 10 billion dollars from Nutanix could be interesting for Nutanix and help them get in a lot of places and help Google. But Dave, I goin' on record say, I don't think it's going to happen. I don't think Cisco is going to buy Nutanix. Infrastructure's not the real push for Chuck Robbins and that team. And at the Google Cloud event, Dave, that we were at, we saw Sanjay Poonen from VMware up on stage touting how deeply VMware was going to partner. So both VMware and Nutanix are partnering with all of the clouds. VMware of course has a very deep relationship with VMware. They're going deeper with Google, they are even partnering with the old enemy of Microsoft, so I would give VMware definitely has a deeper and more public relationship with all the public cloud providers but Nutanix is also partnering and expanding their portfolio to give themselves good growth beyond just the core HCI market. >> HP's another one. So Nutanix and HPE are workin' together. Kind of the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Nutanix was not at VMworld this year; they're kind of booted out. So they belly up to HP. >> Yeah, HP loves having, they have their, "As a service offerings," and Nutanix is one of those as well as Nutanix can sell the HP. So as the, right, the Dell relationship is likely going to die down over time, as Michael Dell on the team, want to sell more Dell hardware with VMware software. HPE is another... And they also partner with Lenovo on the Nutanix side. >> All right, Stu, bring it home. What are the key takeaways on this cube Insights. >> Okay, so HCI, who is a two-horse race right now. There are interesting companies to look at beyond the two, but if you want to understand who the leaders are in the space it is: VMware, especially with their VxRail and Nutanix, are the two leaders in that space. Really looking and understanding how they're expanding into multicloud and hybrid cloud solutions. VMware very much with their VCF offering, which packages vSAN to go into the VMware cloud offerings. And Nutanix with an interesting strategy, both with how they really spread some of their services like what they're doing with Xi Cloud, as well as some SaaS offerings, which some of them really have a disconnect. Not in a bad way, but just are not tied directly to the hardware. What the infrastructure companies have tried to do for years. Both of them, VMware's done tons of acquisitions. Nutanix has done quite a few acquisitions too. >> So your second point here, what's the impact of Dell VMware versus the Nutanix battle? You say not a significant impact on spending intentions yet. I mean there's clearly some evidence that those two markets are comin' together, that VMware's pressuring Nutanix. But why do you say, yet? What do you expect? I mean is it the OEM deal with Dell? >> It's the OAM relationship. There is huge pipeline of Dell hardware with Nutanix software and they're at loggerheads. So absolutely, the Dell family: Dell, EMC and VMware are doing all they can to dial that down. So they put pressure on the channel. And even some of the most loyal Nutanix channel partners that work with Dell, have had pressure to do more and more VxRail. So I expect it to have impact, but just as, Dave, I'll dial back the clock. You probably remember when EMC had a relationship with HP and HP killed the OEM of EMC storage. EMC stormed back and got a lot of those accounts. Same thing happened when EMC and Dell broke up a couple of years before the acquisition. So Nutanix is storming to go with HPE as one of their server partners, and (mumbles). So can Nutanix keep their growth and momentum going as Dell is no longer their biggest partner? >> Well, they're fighting a two-front war. They've got one with Dell VMware and they're also fighting the war with the public cloud guys, even though they're partnering with the public cloud guys. All right, they're sort of taking that cloud model but of course it's on prim. So you say how this public cloud affects HCI spending; not a significant impact on spending intentions yet. Can I infer from that that you do expect there to be pressure on that second front? >> Yeah, so as I've talked about before Dave, when we look at VMware and VMware gives the VMware cloud in AWS. Some say, "Great, that gives me a nice path to be able to use public cloud. But maybe I don't need some of this VMware licensing and software in there." The question for Nutanix is very similar. What services do they have? How do they become more sticky in customer environments? And absolutely, they're driving a roadmap for that in working with their customers. >> Well the thing about Nutanix is that customer's really happy. The customer's really like Nutanix. They like the simplicity. I've talked to a number of Nutanix customers that are very happy in that regard. And they have a leading product in that regard. But they're aiming at the multicloud space and can they play there? >> And Dave, you make a really good point. The killer use case, what did HCI deliver? It delivered simplicity. Today, if you talk about public cloud in general or even hybrid or multicloud, (chuckles) simplicity is not how you would describe this. So can the customers, the companies that did HCI, so, VMware, Nutanix, HPE and Cisco, they're all fighting for that hybrid and multicloud environment. And if they can help deliver simplicity of management, simplicity of leveraging my data, they can be successful in that space. >> Okay, so you're sort of positive on the multicloud, their position in multicloud. Even though they're not one of the big five. >> Yeah, and the good news for a Nutanix is that they're growing off of a much smaller base then say VMware, when you say they have five or 600,000 customers. Hey, how big of an impact will public cloud have on them? >> All right, so we don't pick stocks. We're not making recommendations. (laughs) But, do you feel like it's overdone, that it's undervalued? Independent of the macro. Do you feel like the pressure on Nutanix is warranted, or do you feel like it's got legs? >> So I feel Wall Street tends to over adjust when they go through things. When I talk to my friends on the Wall Street stuff. Definitely Nutanix took more of a beating probably then they should have. But they had two quarters that weren't great. And some of that was the management changes, they blamed that they couldn't hire sales and marketing fast enough. Something we'd asked, if you're a company in the Valley and you've gone from a few hundred people to a few thousand people. How do you keep adding good quality people? That's challenging. So yes, I think we've actually seen Dave, in the last week, or so Nutanix has been one of the fastest growing stocks in the tech market. So they're adjusting some. So I still think Nutanix has plenty of room for growth. The question is, what's their path to say, two billion dollars? Or is it an exit for 9-10 billion dollars down the road? >> All right, Stu, some great stuff. Thank you for that analysis. And thank you for watching this episode of theCube Insights, powered by ETR. This is Dave Vellante, for Stu Miniman, we'll see ya next time. (techno music)

live from Austin Texas it's the cube covering cube con and cloud native con 2017 brought to you by Red Hat the Lenox foundation and the cubes ecosystem partners hey welcome back everyone we are live here in Austin Texas for this the cube exclusive coverage of the cloud native con and cube con kubernetes con north america 2017 I'm John Fourier wrapping up the show of two days of live coverage it was dude Minutemen and Justin Warren analysts with the cube guys you guys are out in the hallways Justin you read all the sessions still we've been doing interviews great shows second year full year was a standalone show it was kind of you know a small show last year but really amazing size seven forty five hundred people or so a lot of logos diamond sponsors platinum sponsors gold sponsors silver sponsors startup sponsors media partners it's a freaking commercial party yet tons of developers tons of action so it's not so much a vendor show a lot of vendor interest in what is the a-list developers in this new way to program new way to build services from lyft donating massive to envoy code Google bringing in massive code a lot of contributions a lot of energy a lot of tech action let's wrap it up do yeah so John first of all you I I we had covered the show last year you had gone done it I seen the buzz around kubernetes so I had a certain expectation and actually it's a the show exceeded my expectation you know Dan conan told us we're gonna have over 4,000 people so that it wasn't the size of it but just the quality of the people and the interactions here you know we've been in other shows you know over the years with the cube where you've had you know those builders and you know smart people but wow you know you walk around here people that have done some of these things many time and as we were talking with a number of them it's you know there's some of this infrastructure and really trying to you know solve some of these things and make infrastructure boring that now we've been beating on for years as well as you know it's really helping the applications and I like it this really kind of bridges you know those environments because infrastructure has always known the reason we have infrastructure is to help the applications and for too long infrastructure has been this boat anchor and you know smart people who've been through you know lots of battles before and it feels a little different it feels like we were making some progress you know just and I were talking ahead of the show I remember when we wrapped up Amazon last week it's like serverless holds a lot of promise well server list does not eclipse all of the cloud native and kubernetes stuff here we're actually seeing some of the intersection I know I want to hear Justin's take on some of it but you know a lot of good things you know just in 20 or 50 sessions here they're all online by the way on their YouTube channel for the CN CF you had a chance to kind of walk with always go to some sessions what did you find most exciting what was the notable point the comment sessions here have been spectacular I agree with you the quality of the attendees from from from customers from people who are building the things from vendors it's it's really really high quality stuff the sessions are really technical it depends on which part of the ecosystem you want to dive into so there's not as much in entry level and high level stuff so people who were involved in this ecosystem know what they're doing so it'll be interesting to see how that changes over the next couple of years I expect that there's going to be a bit more intro level thing although boring is the new exciting so maybe there will be no need to do a lot of the intro stuff because it'll be abstracted away so there's a lot of projects that are about basically about making everything easy that is the goal that's what I'm hearing around the conference today and there's lots of there we saw in the keynote yesterday the idea of meta particle which is basically layering extra layers of abstraction on top of kubernetes we saw it again in the keynote with Chen today where they're trying to put different services on top of kubernetes so essentially kubernetes goes away and just becomes invisible it's like plumbing Clayton Coleman mentioned that from Red Hat making containers boring I agree boring is the new black that means boring is working that's foundational to me I think I'm excited by the fact that we're it's not a lot of land grabbing so to speak on it by the vendors it's very foundational tech and people are focused on don't screw it up let's we got a good thing going on it was goober Nettie's that's kind of the vibe I'm sensing and then the excitement of opportunity yeah there seems to be a lot of that anything jump out at you Justin on in terms of tech hallway conversations notable emerging projects that's your eye as catching up with you just before the show we we were talking about what are you looking forward to and for me two of the big things was service and storage like state management and I agree with you those are the two things that still aren't really solve I just came from the server that's working group just before coming on here and there are still a whole bunch of foundational questions about what service actually is is it function to the service is it more than that does s3 count as as something which is service because you don't actually care about which server you're hitting maybe that's service so there's still a lot of work to be done there about defining what that looks like and creating some standards around things standards is apparently a dirty word which I thought it was a bit strange that this whole idea of what standards a great isn't it it's great it's a standard which are which allows you to build other things on top of that I think we're going to see more and more of that that's what we've seen with kubernetes that's one of the the great benefits of having this standardized thing run by CN CF is everyone else can take that off the table as a as a competitive thing so we're not trying to outdo each other and be more kubernetes than anyone else instead people are building things on top of that so we're seeing storage providers like diamante we're seeing networking providers who are doing things with sto and we've works so that ecosystem is being deliberately created by taking some of that competitive pressure off the table okay that's a great point I want to bring that stool and get your thoughts because we interviewed Ben seek single men from lights light stats and he's super smart guy great conversation where things I asked him about his innovation around communities and he says look it you got a is building communities and having them run things is not as good as being forced to come together around standards you mentioned Ethernet a lot of the OSI model was formulated because if you didn't standardize there was no outcome for anybody yeah so there's that kind of going on with kubernetes where just has come together let's it should be a good word and it was done deliberately I was again talking with Jen that like community is is a kind of a buzzword of the cook of the conference there are specific things that have been done to build a community here it's not just about technology it's about the people and we've got things like the diversity scholarships that we saw on on the first day we're 103 people were were sponsored to come here and be on this conference yeah you know I come into something like that a little bit skeptical when you want to poke at things you know coming off of the Amazon show it's there are many people that are scared of Amazon this show everybody's actually really happy and they're like great it's no longer Hadrian made it made a comment to us he's like it's not the everybody about Amazon Club they're here and everybody's actually happy they're here now you know some of the things they're doing will still kind of play out over time but community it's real John did the amount of smart men and women that we talk to I agree with you blew my mind I mean and who we just had on you know you mentioned you know some of the other guests we've had on just super high quality you know just density you brought up a good point this is something that we hadn't talked about this could bring it up Amazon yes last week we're talking about the Amazon how they're winning everything else everyone's reacting to Amazon and this show is reacting to Amazon in a positive way because the culture here they're from the same tech religion if you want to call it a religion they're cloud native they buy the Amazon value proposition yeah so it's not like this is an anti-feminist on crowd if anything they're all going hey Thank You Amazon keep validating micro services I mean why would you it is very much a yes and it's like cloud great what else can we do let's do more of that let's let's layer things on top of this cloud thing and let's in fact go multiplayer let's put with cloud all the things yeah and the competition strategy is gonna be interesting by the families and what's what's great is that they're enabling stuff so to me we're gonna see where the value will be created obviously the software engineering piece it's going to be a big definition I think so the word software engineering now means something you look at all the tech here it's software engineering then the application developers our application developers they're not engineering plumping right so I mean so you're gonna start to see you know that kind of roll so this new ecosystem might emerge you guys reaction to that I mean John look kubernetes commoditized it's no longer you know there's not the orchestration Wars we talked about this coming in it was one of the things that surprised me is this Kelsey said on his keynote this one actually wasn't any really big surprises this community has a lot of transparency so if you're plugged in if you're talking to the people we understand the roadmap there's a lot of projects and nobody can keep up with all the changes but some of the base pieces we understand where that is the the service mesh piece you know huge participation people go into the sessions everybody's interest learning to it and there's so many pieces where people who contribute customers are getting value and it's still very very early days I I love the line they said it's like hey 4100 people here that's probably everyone running kubernetes right now with around the world so you know John I how BIG's this gonna get you know what do we say and I'd love to get just let's take us he was more in the hallways but just to kind of smell on the vibe here and kind of feeling it and read the tea leaves and if things if they smell brisk if the CNC F doesn't screw it up which I don't think they will cuz Dan's very confident they got a great team I do agree with Justin this is a community that was designed by the people first that have the right principles and and know what they want and then will allow detect the form so I think we might see an easier decision around standards if that all happens things like standards and whatnot to make it grow I think this could be a little mini reinvent going on here so I feel a lot like reinvents do our first time there where you know we got all the best guests because such a small community now it's so popular we got it they're all booked up and we're trying to grab guests I think this could be as big as reinvent in not as now but eventually this could be an industry event because if this all works out you're going to see two major audiences those software engineering plumbers and then on the application side that's going to be the business logic like they've been talking about and then that's going to create value ecosystem a third new constituency if that happens it's a services world and it's a you know twenty thousand person show yeah I can definitely see this growing into a big big show we don't have many industry independent shows anymore most of them are a particular vendors ecosystem this one is yeah that's like kubernetes came from Google but it's the CNC F is an independent body they're being very careful about which projects that they add in I was speaking with a lot of the members and of the of the founding board and they are being very careful to not make the same mistakes that's happened with OpenStack they've learned a lot of the lessons from OpenStack and and other communities as well so they're making some deliberate decisions based on experience and knowledge that they've gained from other places so that this will be sustainable and that it can grow into something really really big and I'll just add to your point there Dan Cohen said on the opening keynote they specifically designed it to be a technical event yes not a business event yes Stu that takes a question cube con with a-c-c ube could be the business of kubernetes get out there confuse your prediction for 2018 we're bringing our best coverage guys thanks for commentary last word thoughts this show sum it up wrap it up cube all the things yeah I mean just impressive John after you know this is our last big event of the year you know just so you know humbled to be able to be you know in this community meet some amazing people and you know share it with our audience you know that this community is something that comes out of this we do community with the K I guess for kubernetes yeah I think high quality okay purposeful high integrity and smart and I think that is formula that will play well love the diversity love all the action guys great great wrap-up Justin's do is the cube here wrapping up coop con cloud native con North America 2017 in Austin Texas thanks for watching of course visit Silk'n angle calm and youtube.com which I still contain go the cube net and we keep on comm and special shout out to Red Hat for all the great support appreciate it and continued success to Red Hat the cubes signing off from Austin Texas thanks for watching