>> Announcer: Live, from Austin, Texas, it's The Cube, covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2017, brought to you by Red Hat, the Linux Foundation, and The Cube's ecosystem partners. >> Okay, welcome back everyone, we are here live in Austin, Texas for KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2017. This is The Cube's exclusive coverage, I'm John Furrier, the co-founder, of SilconANGLE Media, analyst here with SilconANGLE Media, next guest, Justin Garrison, co-author of the Cloud Native Infrastructure book. How about us wrap up day one with two days of live coverage, Justin, welcome to The Cube. >> Justin: Yeah, thanks for having me. >> Stu, day one wrap-up, guys what are you seeing? Justin, what's your perspective? >> There are a ton of announcements today, it was kind of crazy. It's amazing being part of the CNCF community and everything, and everything happens in the open, but then there's so much other stuff in the ecosystem that just happens and gets announced. >> I mean, real accelerated growth, if you look at KubeCon, this is the second year doing the event, last year's kind of an inaugural event, the first year before that was just an idea, side break out kind of thing going on, just forming, and then just took off. Obviously containers with DockerCon, and Container Ecosystem, kina floating that boat up. Kubernetes, I mean those tracks are huge, the agenda looks like, it's like a university of geeks here, I mean, this has been ramped up pretty fast. What's your take on that? >> I mean, I was at KubeCon last year, and about a thousand people was a great little environment, and a lot of stuff that was still emerging, and being discovered, and now it's everyone is in the middle of it, and trying to learn as fast as they can to pick up these projects, and see how to actually make this stuff production-ready, and how to actually use it. And not just in the environments that they used to be, they're rewriting all of their environments, it's no longer a here's how I run my app the old way, and a VM statically, it's I you know, we're beyond running containers, and they realize that's not the end goal anymore. >> Justin, when we were talking to you before the segment here, and you're like oh, I've been working on Kubeternes for like two years more and everything, and it's funny in the career. It's like oh, well two years, in some ways it's a long time, in CloudNative time it's a long time, in career wise, it's a rather short time, give us a little bit about what you've been seeing, you know, what's interesting, you mentioned there's a whole lot of announcements, I mean, obviously new projects spinning up, new, new releases, so you know, if you could give us a little bit of a historical view. >> Yeah, I mean from last year, it was really hard to get a cluster. It was something that was really, like you had to know what you were doing to make Kubernetes run, and make it highly available and production-ready. And now, club dividers give you a button, you click it, how big do you want it, how much do you want to auto-scale it, and it's all about the application, and bringing business value to whoever's running it to say, like, my application runs here, and now there's more involved with Istio and these network proxies that give you more resiliency in the claw providers, because people don't run their own infrastructures much anymore, it's all in a cloud, and they don't care about the underlying infrastructure, they care about their apps. >> Yeah, so you tell them about CloudNative infrastructure, so one of the things we're teasing out here is, you know, Kubernetes, all this CloudNative stuff will make it easy to be able to do the application, but you know, infrastructure, it matters. I love Dan Cone's line in the Keynote this morning is you know, it's exciting times for boring infrastructure, so you know, talk about that layer, what's important about infrastructure, and bring us in a little bit, you know, why you wrote the book with Kris Nova, and you know, how that fit. >> Really wanted to write it to help people not make a lot of mistakes to help them kind of level up and get a head start in building the infrastructure in the cloud, cause it's not something that they own anymore, it's not this server that they rack, and they take care of it for years. It's something that comes and goes, it's quick, you know, you have to design for failure and resiliency, and that layer of infrastructure isn't important because you don't run it anymore, but it is important to build a platform on top of that that your applications are still resilient. There's no more scheduled down-times in the cloud, like websites aren't gone, you know, Sundays at midnight. >> Yeah, don't you have to be pretty brave, cause you don't own it anymore, but if something goes wrong, you know, you're the one whose job's on the line. >> You own the failure. >> Justin, talk about the feedback that you might have for the industry. Stu and I were looking at the growth, we certainly love the excitement, but they're still running as fast as they can, they're pedaling as fast as they can, they're trying to introduce all these services. You see some good news here, some new releases coming out, some key services for monitoring, tracing, and whatnot, but what do they need to do better, in your opinion as a practitioner, someone who's out in the trenches, what's the critical analysis, in a good way, constructive criticism, what needs to happen? >> Right, moving forward, I mean there was this, you know, since configuration management, everyone said infrastructure is code, and really we need to level up to be, Kris actually coined this to me in the book, was infrastructure is software. Where it is a piece of software that's running that you declare that has a two-way relationship. It's not get repository that statically defines things, it's a declarative thing that mutates the infrastructure and talks back to the user so that things can auto-scale, and have same defaults and you don't have to do every last little piece of it, but the declarative nature and policy-based roles in all the infrastructure you're building, and everything around your application, and with your application need to be defined and controlled by software and not people anymore. >> But what needs to happen to make that, obviously STN, software-defined data center, we've seen a lot of that go on at the network level's door right now, are they there, what's the progress meter on that? How would you peg the progress of the evolution, making that happen, cause that's really what people want, I mean at the end of the day, that's what Lambda is for Amazon, that's what serverless is, that's what virtual Cubelets are for. >> Yeah, and it's funny, cause you can run Lambda in a very non-CloudNative way, I mean you can have, you know, individual deploying code to Lambda, and not checked in to get anywhere, you can do all those things, you can go against the CloudNative model very easily, and so it's interesting just seeing that evolution as well, of people actually adopting how Netflix has been doing it for a long time. >> Yeah, we should call it SoftwareNative. (laughter) I mean, but this is kind of what we're getting at, I mean, people on the buyer side are looking and saying oh, I get it, I see the new wave coming, I want to get out there, I want to ride this, and they want to kind of vet out whose pretender, who's the player, how should businesses evaluate the pretenders and the players in your mind? >> Moving to the cloud should be, you know, and easy sell. Like people building data centers anymore, you have to have immense scale to really care about those things, and really get any sort of benefit. If you can beat Amazon and Google and Microsoft at the pricing game, then you're still not ahead because you still have all the people managed. They have so many thousands of people that are doing this stuff that you can't keep up. And so, I mean, just adopting one of those clouds, and not worrying about the vendor lock-in. But yes, Kubernetes brings a lot that you can move from cloud to cloud, but really it's about moving to a cloud provider that provides what your application needs, and at the rate of innovation that you need, and if you can match those two things, if you can stay innovation-matched, I mean Amazon is probably going to pull ahead of you, because they're doing this as their job. >> If I hear you correctly, what I'm hearing is that look for people that are players, that are constantly introducing more innovative services? >> If that's what you need, if that's what you need. If you do not need a high rate of innovation, if you have a lot of policy, or a lot of rules and regulations around your industry, then you probably will get lost in Amazon, and they'll move ahead, they'll move too far for you. And so, you need to find what matches for your industry, and your application. >> Justin, 4,000 people here, over 4,000 people here, for those that didn't come, what are they missing, what's exciting you the most, you know, is it the hallway track, is it, you know, some of the special interest groups, you know, what are you excited that you've seen so far, and are looking forward to seeing? >> Really missing out, I just love the community. I mean, every talk is recorded, if you really care, like, go watch them on YouTube, they're great, like every one of these things is fantastic, but engaging with people, meeting face to face, cause a lot of people are online. Like I mean, on Twitter, or on social networks, like thousands of people here, aren't, and you get to meet those people and find out what their struggles are and what they're working on, and then learn from them, either you know, where they're headed, or where they were before. >> I mean, you can meet the people who write the code, and they're going to give you the straight scoop, or tell you they don't know it, it's real authentic. >> Yeah, any things that you're hearing, kind of what's the buzz, what's the pain point, you know, that you're hearing from the community so far? >> A lot of people still aren't in cloud, they're still doing it themselves, standing up a cluster on pram, you know, has struggles, Kubernetes cluster that is. I mean, you can't really adopt some of these patterns, until you have an API that declares all of your infrastructure, and that's still hard for people. And OpenStack was going to bring some of that stuff, and sometimes it did, sometimes it didn't, but really it's about people and processes, and getting those things right, and being able to change the culture of your environment, and for your applications, that's what's important for the business, and that's where you can learn from people face-to-face and actually talk to them, and not just read a blog post about it, and just hear a one-way tell me what you did, I need feedback, and I need this feedback from whoever's doing it to say, well, why did you do that, and that's really important in the community to learn. >> Well, one of the preferential I was looking for, it's one thing to say, you know, some of these CloudNative companies, like, you see in Netflix, you see in Lyft, you know these are companies where, you know, digital is their business. What about, you know, more traditional businesses, you know, are they able to make that change, is it too challenging for them, you know, what are you seeing? >> The people and the culture's the hardest thing to change, it always is. And if they can change the people, the Keynote today, Netflix was talking about the tools influence your culture, and if you can influence your culture positively, and do that intentionally to actually change the people, then absolutely, they totally can pivot and make that change, but again, do they need to? I mean, if there's other government restrictions, or something else that like, they could move too fast and cause other problems for their industry. >> What's a practitioner dream scenario right now out there that you see, cause you made a good point, sometimes you might want to have more services, sometimes you might want to pull back so it kind of depends on the perspective, but generally speaking, CloudNative Kubernetes, offers an opportunity, what's the nirvana, what's the ideal use case for practitioners these days, what's the key things that need to be rolled out or on the table should be taken advantage of? >> You mean as far as technology goes, or? >> Whether it's technology, whether it's mindset, culture, people, personnel, package, ops. >> I mean, if we can change the people mindset of how they do things, how they deploy applications, and how they manage those applications, the technology would fall into place, I believe, because the people would drive towards this way of working, and then they would build those tools just naturally. A lot of times, like with Kubernetes, Google was in that mindset, and so they did that, they had that culture, and now they're trying to share that with everyone else, and then everyone else has to learn from the tool, rather than the people building. >> Did you see the Netflix talk on the Keynote was culture and tech, and I think that's a real good point, because if you think about your other point, if you got a lot of compliance issues, you might not want to go fast, you really want to move fast, or you like a, you know, fast dot com or web services company, you might want to compete on value and services. Know your culture and hire right. >> Know what your benefit is of your application, and what environment it plays in, and then you can, from there, figure out. >> Well that's been a struggle for the DevOps world is they're taking a square and trying to put it in a round hole, you know what I'm saying? >> Everyone want to move fast, but should everyone move fast, I don't know. It depends. >> Yeah, alright Justin, well thanks so much for coming on. >> Thank you. >> Biggest surprise in this whole Kubernetes movement for you, just in terms of shock factor, or blew you away, did you fall out of your chair, share some color, personal perspective. >> The community is just humongous now. I mean, joining it a couple years ago, it was pretty small, and things were really difficult, and now I play with, you know, clusters in Amazon and Google and Microsoft and just one quick button, I play with it for a few hours and I throw it away, and I got a bill for like four cents, I was like that was amazing, like this would take so long, you know, a couple years ago, and the growth of the community around that, just to be able to say like this is easy now, let's level up what we're doing and working on, and figuring out where the benefit is. >> When we were talking earlier in The Cube, and we've been saying for a couple months, this is going to bring back more time for the developers, to bring craftsmanship back to the development process, bringing artistry and artisan kind of, real software development, not like UX stuff, but like really solution-driven. >> Focus on the business application, where's the application in the business struggle and don't worry about the infrastructure. >> Justin Garrison, co-author of the Cloud Native Infrastructure book, it's on the web, check it out, thanks for coming on The Cube, thanks for sharing your perspective. Day one wrap- up here in Austin Texas for KubeCon and CloudNativeCon, I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching, see you tomorrow for day two coverage. Thanks for watching.