>> Welcome back to Cube On Cloud. My name is Paul Gillin, enterprise editor at SiliconANGLE, and I'm pleased to now have as a guest on the show. Amit Zephyr, excuse me, general manager, vice president of business application platform at Google cloud. Amit is a formerly EVP and corporate officer for product development at Oracle cloud, 24 years at Oracle, and by my account a veteran of seven previous appearances on theCube. Amit welcome, thanks for joining us. >> Thanks for having me Paul, it's always good to be back on theCube. >> Now you are... one of your big focus areas right now is on low-code and no-code. Of course this is a market that seems to be growing explosively. We often hear low code/no code used in the same breath as if they're the same thing. In fact, how are they different? >> I think it's a huge difference, now. I think industry started as local mode for many, many years. I mean, there were technologies, or tools provided for kind of helping developers be more productive that's what low-code was doing. It was not really meant, even though it was positioned for citizen developers it was very hard for a non technologist to really build application using low code. No-code is really meant as the word stands, no code. So there's really no coding, there's no understanding required about the underlying technology stack, or knowing how constructs works or how the data is laid out. All that stuff is kind of hidden and abstracted out from you. You are really focused as a citizen developer or a line of business user, in kind of delivering what your business application requirements are, and the business flows are, without having to know anything about writing any code. So you can build applications, you can build your interfaces and not have to learn anything about a single line of code. So that's really no-code and I think they getting to a phase now where the platforms have gotten much stronger and better where you can do very good productive applications without having to write a single line of code. So that's really the goal with no-code, and that's really the future in terms of how we will get more and more line of business users, or citizen developers to build applications they need for their day-to-day work. >> So when would you use one or the other? >> I think since low-code you would probably any developer has been around for eight, 10 years, if not longer where you extract out some of this stuff you can do some of the things in terms of not having to write some code where you have a lot of modules pre-built for you, and then when you want to mix a lot of changes, you go and drop into an ID and write some code or make some changes to a code. So you still get into that, and those are really focused towards semi-professional developers or IT in many cases or even developers who want to reduce the time required to start from, write and building an application. so it makes you much more productive. So if you are a really some semi-professional or you are a developer, you can either use use low-code to improve your productivity and not start from scratch. No-code is really used for folks who are really not interested in learning about coding, don't have any experience in it, and still want to be productive and build applications. And that's really when I would start with.. I would not give a low code to a citizen developer or a line of business user who has no experience with any coding. And that's not really.. It will only productive, They'll get frustrated and not deliver what you need, and not get anything out of it and many cases. >> Well, I've been around this industry long enough to remember fourth-generation languages and visual basic >> Yeah and the predecessors that never really caught on in a big way. I mean, they certainly had big audiences but, right now we're seeing 40, 50% annual market growth. Why is this market suddenly so hot? >> Yeah it's not a difference. I think that as you said, the 4G deal and I think a lot of those tools, even if you look at forms, and PLC and we kind of extracted out the technology and made it easier, but it was not very clear who they were targeting with that. They're still targeting the same developer audience. So the they never expanded the universe of users. It was same user base, just making it simpler for them. So, with those low-code tools, it never landed them getting more and more user base out of that. With no-code platforms, you are now expanding the user community. You are giving this capabilities to more and more users than a low-code tools could provide. That's why I think the growth is much faster. So if you find the right no-code platform, you will see a lot more adoption because you're solving a real problem, you are giving them a lot more capabilities and making the user productive without having to depend on IT in many cases, or having to wait for a lot of those big applications to be built for them even though they need it immediately. So I think that's why I think you're solving a real business problem and giving a lot more capabilities to users and no doubt the users love it and they start expanding the usage. It's very viral adoption in many cases after that. >> Historically the rap on these tools has been that, because they're typically interpreted, the performance is never going to be up to that of application written in C plus plus or something. Is that still the case? Is that a sort of structural weakness of no-code tools or is that changing? >> I think the early days probably not any more. I think if you look at what we are doing at Google Cloud for example, it's not interpreted, I mean, it does do a lot of heavy lifting underneath the covers, but, and you don't have to go into the coding part of it but it brings the whole Cloud platform with it, right? So the scalability, the security the performance, availability all that stuff is built into the platform. So it's not a tool, it's a platform. I think that's thing, the big difference. Most of the early days you will see a lot of these things as a tool, which you can use it, and there's nothing underneath the covers the run kinds are very weak, there's really not the full Cloud platform provided with it, but I think the way we seeing it now and over the last many years, what we have done and what we continue to do, is to bring the power of the Cloud platform with it. So you're not missing out on the scalability, the performance, security, even the compliance and governance is built in. So IT is part of the process even though they might not build an application themselves. And that's where I think the barriers have been lifted. And again, it's not a solution for everything also. I'm not saying that this would go in, if you want to build a full end to end e-commerce site for example, I would not use a no-code platform for it, because you're going to do a lot more heavy lifting, you might want to integrate with a lot of custom stuff, you might build a custom experience. All that kind of stuff might not be that doable, but there are a lot of use cases now, which you can deliver with a platform like what we've been building at Google cloud. >> So, talk about what you're doing at Google cloud. Do you have a play in both the low-code and the no-code market? Do you favor one over the other? >> Yeah no I think we've employed technologies and services across the gamut of different requirements, right? I mean, our goal is not that we will only address one market needs and we'll ignore the rest of the things required for our developer community. So as you know, Google cloud has been very focused for many years delivering capabilities for developer community. With technology we deliver the Kubernetes and containers tend to flow for AI, compute storage all that kind of stuff is really developer centric. We have a lot of developers build applications on it writing code. They have abstracted some of this stuff and provide a lot of low-code technologies like Firebase for building mobile apps, the millions of apps mobile apps built by developers using Firebase today that it does abstract out the technology. And then you don't have to do a lot of heavy lifting yourself. So we do provide a lot of low-code tooling as well. And now, as we see the need for no-code especially kind of empowering the line of business user and citizen developers, we acquired a company called AppSheet, early 2020, and integrated that as part of our Google Cloud Platform as well as the workspace. So the G suite, the Gmail, all the technology all the services we provide for productivity and collaboration. And allowed users to now extend that collaboration capabilities by adding a workflow, and adding another app experience as needed for a particular business user needs. So that's how we looking at it like making sure that we can deliver a platform for spectrum of different use cases. And get that flexibility for the end user in terms of whatever they need to do, we should be able to provide as part of a Google Cloud Platform now. >> So as far as Google Cloud's positioning, I mean you're number three in the market you're growing but not really changing the distance between you and Microsoft for what public information we've been able to see in AWS. In Microsoft you have a company that has a long history with developers and of development tools and really as is that as a core strength do you see your low-code/no-code strategy as being a way to make up ground on them? >> Yeah, I think that the way to look at the market, and again I know the industry analyst and the market loves to do rankings in this world but, I think the Cloud business is probably big enough for a lot of vendors. I mean, this is growing as the amazing pace as you know. And it is becoming, it's a large investment. It takes time for a lot of the vendors to deliver everything they need to. But today, if you look at a lot of the net new growth and lot of net new customers, we seeing a huge percentage of share coming to Google Cloud, right? And we continue to announce some of the public things and the results will come out again every quarter. And we tried to break out the Cloud segment in the Google results more regularly so that people get an idea of how well they're doing in the Cloud business. So we are very comfortable where we are in terms of our growth in terms of our adoption, as well as in terms of how we delivering all the value our customers require, right? So, note out one of the parts we want to do is make sure that we have a end to end offering for all of the different use cases customers require and no-code is one of the parts we want to deliver for our customers as well. We've done very good capabilities and our data analytics. We do a lot of work around AIML, industry solutions. You look at the adoption we've had around a lot of those platform and Hybrid and MultiCloud. It's been growing very, very fast. And this one more additional things we are going to do, so that we can deliver what our customers are asking for. We're not too worried about the rankings we are worried about really making sure we're delivering the value to our customers. And we're seeing that it doesn't end very well. And if you look at the numbers now, I mean the growth rate is higher than any other Cloud vendor as well as be seeing a huge amount of demand been on Google Cloud as well. >> Well, not to belabor the point, but naturally your growth rate is going to be higher if you're a third of the market, I mean, how important is it to you to break into, to surpass the number two? How important are rankings within the Google Cloud team, or are you focused mainly more on growth and just consistency? >> No, I don't think again, I'm not worried about... we are not focused on ranking, or any of that stuff typically, I think we were worried about making sure customers are satisfied, and the adding more and more customers. So if you look at the volume of customers we're signing up, a lot of the large deals they didn't... do we need to look at the announcement we'd made over the last year, has been tremendous momentum around that. Lot of large banks, lot of large telecommunication companies large enterprises, name them. I think all of them are starting to kind of pick up Google Cloud. So if you follow that, I think that's really what is satisfying for us. And the results are starting to show that growth and the momentum. So we can't cover the gap we had in the previous... Because Google Cloud started late in this market. So if Cloud business grows by accumulating revenue over many years. So I cant look at the history, I'm looking at the future really. And if you look at the growth for the new business and the percentage of the net new business, we're doing better than pretty much any other vendor out there. >> And you said you were stepping up your reference to disclose those numbers. Was that what I heard you say? >> I think every quarter you're seeing that, I think we started announcing our revenue and growth numbers, and we started to do a lot of reporting about our Cloud business and that you will start, you see more and more and more of that regularly from Google now. >> Let's get back just briefly to the low-code/no-code discussion. A lot of companies looking at how to roll this out right now. You've got some big governance issues involved here. If you have a lot of citizen developers you also have the potential for chaos. What advice are you giving customers using your tools for how they should organize around citizen development? >> Yeah, no, I think no doubt. If this needs to be adopted by enterprise you can't make it a completely rogue or a completely shadow based development capabilities. So part of our no-code platform, one thing you want to make sure that this is enterprise ready, it has many aspects required for that. One is compliance making sure you have all the regulatory things delivered for data, privacy, security. Second is governance. A lot of the IT departments want to make sure who's using this platform? How are they accessing it? Are they getting the right security privileges associated with that? Are we giving them the right permissions? So in our a no-code platform we adding all this compliance, and governance regulatory stuff as part of our underlying platform, even though the end user might not have to worry about it the person who's building applications shouldn't have to think about it, but we do want to give controls to IT as needed by the large enterprises. So that is a big part of how we deliver this. We're not thinking about this as like go and build it, and then we write it once you have to do things for your enterprise, and then get it to do it again and again. Because then it just a waste of time and you're not getting the benefit of the platform at all. So we bringing those things together where we have a very easy to use, very powerful no-code platform with the enterprise compliance as well as governance built into that platform as well. And that is really resonating. If you look at a lot of the customers we're working with they do require that and they get excited about it as well as the democratizing of all of their line of business users. They're very happy that they're getting that kind of a platform, which they can scale from and deliver the productivity required. >> Certainly going to make businesses look very different in the future. And speaking of futures, It is January it's time to do predictions. What are your predictions (laughs) for the Cloud for this year? >> No I think that I mean no doubt cloud has become the center for pretty much every company now, I think the digital transformation especially with COVID, has greatly accelerated. We have seen many customers now who are thinking of pieces of their platform, pieces of their workflow or business to be digitized. Now that's trying to do it for all of it. So the one part which we see for this year is the need for more and more of efficiency in the industry are verticalized business workflows. It's not just about providing a plain vanilla Cloud Platform but also providing a lot more content and business details and business workflows by industry segments. So we've been doing a lot of work and we expect a huge amount of that to be becoming more and more core part of our offering as well as what customers are asking for. Where you might need things around say know your customer kind of workflow for financial services, Telehealth for healthcare. I mean, every industry has specific things like demand management and demand forecasting for retail but making that as part of a Cloud service not just saying, hey, I have compute storage network. I have some kind of a platform go add it and go and build what you want for your industry needs, We want to provide them that all those kinds of business processes and content for those industries as well. So we identified six, seven, industries. We see that as a kind of the driving factor for our Cloud growth, as well as helping our customers be much more productive as well as seeing the value of Cloud being much more realistic for them versus just a replacement for the data center. I think that's really the big shift in 21 I think. And I think that will make a big difference for all the companies who are really trying to digitize and be in forefront of the needs as their customers require in the future. >> Of course all of this accelerated by the pandemic and all of the specialized needs that have emerged from that. >> And I think the bond, which is important as well, I think as you know, I mean, everybody talks about AIML as like a big thing. No doubt AIML is an important element of it, but if you make that usable and powerful through this kind of workflows and business processes, as well as particular business applications, I think you see a lot more interest in using it than just a plain manila framework or just technology for the technology sake. So we try to bring the power of AI and ML into this business and industry applications, where we have a lot of good technologists at Google who knows how to use all these things. You wanted to bring that into those applications and platforms >> Exciting times ahead. Amit Zavery thank you so much for joining us. You look just as comfortable as I would expect someone to be who is doing his eighth Cube interview. Thanks for joining us. >> (laughing) Thanks for having me, Paul. >> That's it for this segment of Cube On Cloud, I'm Paul Gillin, stay tuned. (soft music)

>> Live from Barcelona, Spain it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon, CloudNativeCon, Europe 2019. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and Ecosystem Partners. >> Welcome back. This is theCUBE's coverage of KubeCon, CloudNativeCon 2019. I'm Stu Miniman, my co-host for two days wall-to-wall coverage is Corey Quinn. Happy to welcome back to the program first Ben Sigelman, who is the co-founder and CEO of LightStep. And welcome to the program a first time Morgan McLean, who's a product manager at Google Cloud Platform. Gentlemen, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thanks for having us. >> Yeah. >> All right so, this was a last minute ad for us because you guys had some interesting news in the keynote. I think the feedback everybody's heard is there's too many projects and everything's overlapping, and how do I make a decision, but interesting piece is OpenCensus, which Morgan was doing, and OpenTracing, which Ben and LightStep were doing are now moving together for OpenTelemetry if I got it right. >> Yup. >> So, is it just everybody's holding hands and singing Kumbaya around the Kubernetes campfire, or is there something more to this? >> Well I mean, it started when the CNCF locked us in a room and told us there were too many projects. (Stu and Ben laughing) Really wouldn't let us leave. No, to be fair they did actually take us to a room and really start the ball rolling, but conversations have picked up for the last few months and personally I'm just really excited that it's gone so well. Initially if you told me six or nine months ago that this would happen, I would've been, given just the way the projects were going, both were growing very quickly, I would've been a little skeptical. But seriously, this merger's gone beyond my wildest dreams. It's awesome, both to unite the communities, it's awesome to unite the projects together. >> What has the response been from the communities on this merger? >> Very positive. >> Yeah. >> Very positive. I mean OpenTracing and OpenCensus are both projects with healthy user bases that are growing quickly and all that, but the reason people adopt them is to future-proof their own software. Because they want to adopt something that's going to be here to stay. And by having these two things out in the world that are both successful, and were overlapping in terms of their goals, I think the presence of two projects was actually really problematic for people. So, the fact that they're merging is net positive, absolutely for the end user community, also for the vendor community, it's a similar, it's almost exactly the same parallel thought process. When we met, the CNCF did broker an in-person meeting where they gave us some space and we all got together and, I don't know how many people were there, like 20 or 30 people in that room. >> They did let us leave the room though, yesterday, yeah that was nice. >> They did let us leave the room, that's true. We were not locked in there, (Morgan laughing) but they asked us in the beginning, essentially they asked everyone to state what their goals were. And almost all of us really had the same goal, which is just to try and make it easy for end users to adopt a telemetry project that they can stick with for the long haul. And so when you think of it in that respect, the merger seems completely obvious. It is true that it doesn't happen very often, and we could speculate about why that is. But I think in this case it was enabled by the fact that we had pretty good social relationships with OpenCensus people. I think Twitter tends to amplify negativity in the world in general, as I'm sure people, not a controversial statement. >> News alert, wait, absolutely the negatives are, it's something in the algorithm I think. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Maybe they should fix that. >> Yeah, yeah (laughs) exactly. And it was funny, there was a lot of perceived animosity between OpenTracing and OpenCensus a year ago, nine months ago, but when you actually talk to the principals in the projects and even just the general purpose developers who are doing a huge amount of work for both projects, that wasn't a sentiment that was widely held or widely felt I think. So, it has been a very kind of happy, it's a huge relief frankly, this whole thing has been a huge relief for all of us I think. >> Yeah it feels like the general ask has always been that, for tracing that doesn't suck. And that tends to be a bit of a tall order. The way that they have seemed to have responded to it is a credit to the maturity of the community. And I think it also speaks to a growing realization that no one wants to have a monoculture of just one option, any color you want so long as it's black. (Ben laughing) Versus there's 500 different things you can pick that all stand in that same spot, and at that point analysis paralysis kicks in. So this feels like it's a net positive for, absolutely everyone involved. >> Definitely. Yeah, one of the anecdotes that Ben and I have shared throughout a lot of these interviews is there were a lot of projects that wanted to include distributed tracing in them. So various web frameworks, I think, was it Hadoop or HBase was-- >> HBase and HDFS were jointly deciding what to do about instrumentation. >> Yeah, and so they would publish an issue on GitHub and someone from OpenTracing would respond saying hey, OpenTracing does this. And they'd be like oh, that's interesting, we can go build an implementation file and issue, someone from OpenCensus would respond and say, no wait, you should use OpenCensus. And with these being very similar yet incompatible APIs, these groups like HBase would sit it and be like, this isn't mature enough, I don't want to deal with this, I've got more important things to focus on right now. And rather than even picking one and ignoring the other, they just ignored tracing, right? With things moving to microservices with Kubernetes being so popular, I mean just look at this conference. Distributed tracing is no longer this kind of nice to have when you're a big company, you need it to understand how your app works and understand the cause of an outage, the cause of a problem. And when you had organizations like this that were looking at tracing instrumentation saying this is a bit of joke with two competing projects, no one was being served well. >> All right, so you talked about there were incompatible APIs, so how do we get from where we were to where we're going? >> So I can talk about that a little bit. The APIs are conceptually incredibly similar. And the part of the criteria for any new language, for OpenTelemetry, are that we are able to build a software bridge to both OpenTracing and OpenCensus that will translate existing instrumentation alongside OpenTelemetry instrumentation, and omit the correct data at the end. And we've built that out in Java already and then starting working a few other languages. It's not a tremendously difficult thing to do if that's your goal. I've worked on this stuff, I started working on Dapper in 2004, so it's been 15 years that I've been working in this space, and I have a lot of regrets about what we did to OpenTracing. And I had this unbelievably tempting thing to start Greenfield like, let's do it right this time, and I'm suppressing every last impulse to do that. And the only goal for this project technically is backwards compatibility. >> Yeah. >> 100% backwards compatibility. There's the famous XKCD comic where you have 14 standards and someone says, we need to create a new standard that will unify across all 14 standards, and now you have 15 standards. So, we don't want to follow that pattern. And by having the leadership from OpenTracing and OpenCensus involved wholesale in this new effort, as well as having these compatibility bridges, we can avoid the fate of IPv6, of Python 3 and things like that. Where the new thing is very appealing but it's so far from the old thing that you literally can't get there incrementally. So that's, our entire design constraint is make sure that backwards compatibility works, get to one project and then we can think about the grand unifying theory of a provability-- >> Ben you are ruining the best thing about standards is that there is so many of them to choose from. (everyone laughing) >> There's still plenty more growing in other areas (laughs) just in this particular space it's smaller. >> One could argue that your approach is nonstandard in its own right. (Ben laughing) And in my own experiments with distributed tracing it seems like step one is, first you have to go back and instrument everything you've built. And step two, hey come back here, because that's a lot of work. The idea of an organization going back and reinstrumenting everything they've already instrumented the first time. >> It's unlikely. >> Unless they build things very modularly and very portably to do exactly that, it's a bit of a heavy lift. >> I agree, yeah, yeah. >> So going forward, are people who have deployed one or the other of your projects going to have to go back and do a reinstrumentation, or will they unify and continue to work as they are? >> So, I would pause at the, I don't know, I would be making up the statistic, so I shouldn't. But let's say a vast majority, I'm thinking like 95, 98% of instrumentation is actually embedded in frameworks and libraries that people depend on. So you need to get Dropwizard, and Spring, and Django, and Flask, and Kafka, things like that need to be instrumented. The application code, the instrumentation, that burden is a bit lower. We announced something called SpecialAgent at LightStep last week, separate to all of this. It's kind of a funny combination, a typical APM agent will interpose on individual function calls, which is a very complicated and heavyweight thing. This doesn't do any of that, but it takes, it basically surveys what you have in your process, it looks for OpenTracing, and in the future OpenTelemetry instrumentation that matches that, and then installs it for you. So you don't have to do any manual work, just basically gluing tab A into slot B or whatever, you don't have to do any of that stuff which is what most OpenTracing instrumentation actually looks like these days. And you can get off the ground without doing any code modifications. So, I think that direction, which is totally portable and vendor neutral as well, as a layer on top of telemetry makes a ton of sense. There are also data translation efforts that are part of OpenCensus that are being ported in to OpenTelemetry that also serve to repurpose existing sources of correlated data. So, all these things are ways to take existing software and get it into the new world without requiring any code changes or redeploys. >> The long-term goal of this has always been that because web framework and client library providers will go and build the instrumentation into those, that when you're writing your own service that you're deploying in Kubernetes or somewhere else, that by linking one of the OpenTelemetry implementations that you get all of that tracing and context propagation, everything out of the box. You as a sort of individual developer are only using the APIs to define custom metrics, custom spans, things that are specific to your business. >> So Ben, you didn't name LightStep the same as your project. But that being said, a major piece of your business is going through a change here, what does this mean for LightStep? >> That's actually not the way I see it for what it's worth. LightStep as a product, since you're giving me an opportunity to talk about it, (laughs) foolish move on your part. No, I'm just kidding. But LightStep as a product is totally omnivorous, we don't really care where the data comes from. And translating any source of data that has a correlation ID and a timestamp is a pretty trivial exercise for us. So we do support OpenTracing, we also support OpenCensus for what it's worth. We'll support OpenTelemetry, we support a bunch of weird in-house things people have already built. We don't care about that at all. The reason that we're pursuing OpenTelemetry is two-fold, one is that we do want to see high quality data coming out of projects. We said at the keynote this morning, but observability literally cannot be better than your telemetry. If your telemetry sucks, your observability will also suck. It's just definitionally true, if you go back to the definition of observability from the '60s. And so we want high quality telemetry so our product can be awesome. Also, just as an individual, I'm a nerd about this stuff and I just like it. I mean a lot of my motivation for working on this is that I personally find it gratifying. It's not really a commercial thing, I just like it. >> Do you find that, as you start talking about this more and more with companies that are becoming cloud-native rapidly, either through digital transformation or from springing fully formed from the forehead of some God, however these born in the cloud companies tend to be, that they intuitively are starting to grasp the value of tracing? Or does this wind up being a much heavier lift as you start, showing them the golden path as it were? >> It's definitely grown like I-- >> Well I think the value of tracing, you see that after you see the negative value of a really catastrophic outage. >> Yes. >> I mean I was just talking to a bank, I won't name the bank but a bank at this conference, and they were talking about their own adoption of tracing, which was pretty slow, until they had a really bad outage where they couldn't transact for an hour and they didn't know which of the 200 services was responsible for the issue. And that really put some muscle behind their tracing initiative. So, typically it's inspired by an incident like that, and then, it's a bit reactive. Sometimes it's not but either way you end up in that place eventually. >> I'm a strong proponent of distributed tracing and I feel very seen by your last answer. (Ben laughing) >> But it's definitely made a big impact. If you came to conferences like this two years ago you'd have Adrian, or Yuri or someone doing a talk on distributed tracing. And they would always start by asking the 100 to 200 person audience, who here knows what distributed tracing is? And like five people would raise their hand and everyone else would be like no, that's why I'm here at the talk, I want to find out about it. And you go to ones now, or even last year, and now they have 400 people at the talk and you ask, who knows what distributed tracing is? And last year over half the people would raise their hand, now it's going to be even higher. And I think just beyond even anecdotes, clearly businesses are finding the value because they're implementing it. And you can see that through the number of companies that have an interest in OpenTracing, OpenTelemetry, OpenCensus. You can see that in the growth of startups in this space, LightStep and others. >> The other thing I like about OpenTelemetry as a name, it's a bit of a mouthful but that's, it's important for people to understand the distinction between telemetry and tracing data and actual solutions. I mean OpenTelemetry stops when the correct data is being omitted. And then what you do with that data is your own business. And I also think that people are realizing that tracing is more than just visualizing a single distributed trace. >> Yeah. >> The traces have an enormous amount of information in there about resource usage, security patterns, access patterns, large-scale performance patterns that are embedded in thousands of traces, that sort of data is making its way into products as well. And I really like that OpenTelemetry has clearly delineated that it stops with the telemetry. OpenTracing was confusing for people, where they'd want tracing and they'd adopt OpenTracing, and then be like, where's my UI? And it's like well no, it's not that kind of project. With OpenTelemetry I think we've been very clear, this is about getting >> The name is more clear yeah. >> very high quality data in a portable way with minimal effort. And then you can use that in any number of ways, and I like that distinction, I think it's important. >> Okay so, how do we make sure that the combination of these two doesn't just get watered-down to the least common denominator, or that Ben just doesn't get upset and say, forget it, I'm going to start from scratch and do it right this time? (Ben laughing) >> I'm not sure I see either of those two happening. To your comment about the least common denominator, we're starting from what I was just commenting about like two years ago, from very little prior art. Like yeah, you had projects like Zipkin, and Zipkin had its own instrumentation, but it was just for tracing, it was just for Zipkin. And you had Jaeger with its own. And so, I think we're so far away, in a few years the least common denominator will be dramatically better than what we have today. (laughs) And so at this stage, I'm not even remotely worried about that. And secondly to some vendor, I know, because Ben had just exampled this, >> Some vendor, some vendor. >> that's probably not, probably not the best one. But for vendor interference in this projects, I really don't see it. Both because of what we talked about earlier where the vendors right now want more telemetry. I meet with them, Ben meets with 'em, we all meet with 'em all the time, we work with them. And the biggest challenge we have is just the data we get is bad, right? Either we don't support certain platforms, we'll get traces that dead end at certain places, we don't get metrics with the same name for certain types of telemetry. And so this project is going to fix that and it's going to solve this problem for a lot of vendors who have this, frankly, a really strong economic incentive to play ball, and to contribute to it. >> Do you see that this, I guess merging of the two projects, is offering an opportunity to either of you to fix some, or revisit if not fix, some of the mistakes, as they were, of the past? I know every time I build something I look back and it was frankly terrible because that's the kind of developer I am. But are you seeing this, as someone who's probably, presumably much better at developing than I've ever been, as the opportunity to unwind some of the decisions you made earlier on, out of either ignorance or it didn't work out as well as you hoped? >> There are a couple of things about each project that we see an opportunity to correct here without doing any damage to the compatibility story. For OpenTracing it was just a bit too narrow. I mean I would talk a lot about how we want to describe the software, not the tracing system. But we kind of made a mistake in that we called it OpenTracing. Really people want, if a request comes in, they want to describe that request and then have it go to their tracing system, but also to their metric system, and to their logging stack, and to anywhere else, their security system. You should only have to instrument that once. So, OpenTracing was a bit too narrow. OpenCensus, we've talked about this a lot, built a really high quality reference implementation into the product, if OpenCensus, the product I mean. And that coupling created problems for vendors to adopt and it was a bit thick for some end users as well. So we are still keeping the reference implementation, but it's now cleanly decoupled. >> Yeah. >> So we have loose coupling, a la OpenTracing, but wider scope a la OpenCensus. And in that aspect, I think philosophically, this OpenTelemetry effort has taken the best of both worlds from these two projects that it started with. >> All right well, Ben and Morgan thank you so much for sharing. Best of luck and let us know if CNCF needs to pull you guys in a room a little bit more to help work through any of the issues. (Ben laughing) But thanks again for joining us. >> Thank you so much. >> Thanks for having us, it's been a pleasure. >> Yeah. >> All right for Corey Quinn, I'm Stu Miniman we'll be back to wrap up our day one of two days live coverage here from KubeCon, CloudNativeCon 2019, Barcelona, Spain. Thanks for watching theCUBE. (soft instrumental music)

>> Live from Seattle, Washington, it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon North America 2018, brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Hello everyone, welcome back to the live Cube coverage here, three days at Seattle's KubeCon and CloudNativeCon. It's a conference put on by the Linux Foundation. Cube's been there from the beginning, breaking down all the action. 8,000 people, doubling attendance from the last one, now global, on a global scale, seen great traction in China and other areas around the world. It's about the cloud global. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman, our next guest, Kelsey Hightower with Google. Former code program share, now out in the wild on his own, super dope, playing with all kinds of new technology, it's great to see you, thanks for coming on. >> Proper you said the word dope, by the way, so congratulations there. I'm an attendee, I still have a keynote on Thursday but I do get to enjoy the floor like everyone else. >> So what's new, so you're now, again, there's a lot of pressure now every year. It's more and more people here, so it's a lot of pressure to kind of get all the action packed, but the growth has been pretty phenomenal. You've been looking at serverless, we saw some tweets, again you mention it's super dope, serverless is. You've got serverless, you've got a lot of stuff going on within the CNC app, you've got Kubernetes at the core. A lot of people like calling it the Kubernetes stack or the CNCF stack. Is it really a stack, is it really more of an operating model because there's stacks involved but how do you describe it, because this is a point of clarification. I mean, Kubernetes isn't necessarily a stack. Is it, how do people use it, what's the current state? >> I think when people say stack, you think about the LAMP stack, right? Linux, Apache, MySQL, it's a way of pre-packaging these ideas. This is something that worked for me, it may work for you, you say that enough times and then you say things like the Kubernetes stack. It's a quick, shorthand for Kubernetes and building on top of it. I think from the engineering perspective, when you look at Kubernetes and all the gaps that the CNC app is trying to fill these days, it's all this stuff you're probably building yourself, someone else is building it, and now we kind of have an outlet now. If you're working on a service mesh like list was, you have an outlet to give it to the rest of the world, open governance, and get some contributors. I think what we're seeing now is that hey, CNCF is kind of the place people go to figure out is someone building the thing that I've already started building and can I stop and just download that and go off? >> It's been very successful open source community, obviously, it's been end user leverage, it's been great and it's been open source, community led. Not so much vendor led, but vendors have been participating, so it's been great, but now as Kubernetes is going mainstream, the rise of Kubernetes is undeniable. No one can really deny that. Other end users are now coming in either to participate or to consume Kubernetes. How is that going in your mind? What's going on in the landscape, because people want multicloud, they want hybrid, they want choice. How are end users coming into the ecosystem to consume Kubernetes and the variety of goodness around it and what's going on there? Can you give some color around that option? >> I think regardless of the industry buzzwords like multicloud and hybrid and all that, Kubernetes is good on its own. It solves a lot of problems that your previous tools didn't solve, so people are gravitating towards it regardless in that direction. When you start to talk about portability, yes, it's nice to have two different environments and have the same tools work in a similar way between those environments, that's working well. The people that started three years ago that were doing it themselves, they're finding value and treating that as a service. We saw this happen to DNS, e-mail, so people are saying maybe the value isn't running it myself, so now you kind of see the vendor ecosystem understand what the value is. For a lot of the cloud providers, it's running Kubernetes, patching it, updating it, upgrading it, so that you can go focus on the other parts on top. That's where I think we are as an industry, and then there's gaps to fill, so that's where you see things like native, people building CI-CD tools on top, that's just where the new opportunities are so I think we've kind of matured. People kind of know what Kubernetes is, they know where their value line is for Kubernetes, now they're looking for their partners or vendors or community to just layer the new stuff on top. >> Kelsey, you bring up a great point there because understanding that line of what I should do myself and what I have to do versus what I can buy, consume as a service, is really tough for people, you know. I always say, ask IT departments, what do you really suck at? Because there's somebody else that probably does it better. A year ago, when I talked to users at this show, they were really downloading stuff, putting their things together, and when you asked them why, it was well, the Azure stuff hasn't matured. It just released, Amazon, I'm not sure where they're going with it. It feels like a lot has changed in the last year. You did Amazon the hard way a little over a year ago. What has changed over the last year, you know. >> We saw this with Linux, right? >> Are we ready for that, yeah. >> In Linux everyone use to build their own Linux distro, you took pride in it, using Gentoo and Slackware, and then you're like, I'm tired of that so you go get Red Hat or Ubuntu and call it good, and then you go focus on the other things. Naturally, Kubernetes is early project, has lots of gaps, you can fill those gaps by gluing together open source yourself, but now most of the managed services fill in the gaps by default. You click a button in GKE and a thing comes up, it's secure, has most of the pieces you need, it's integrated, you're like alright, I'm done with that part. >> The other thing, we talked a year ago. There's lots of companies here that are involved in Kubernetes. We've got over 70 that are compliant, and then you've got the service providers. From what I hear, it's people aren't trying to differentiate with Kubernetes and that's probably a good thing. It's something that's going to be baked into the platform, it's something you're going to consume with the other services that I offer, what do you say? >> If you make it different, then it won't work. >> Right. >> It'll be a different thing, so if you make it too different then you lose most of the benefits that we're all talking about here. The ability to learn a set of abstractions once, kind of like we did on Linux, if you start changing the system calls on Linux, then it's not Linux anymore, it's a different thing. >> Just to clarify though, if I'm running in one cloud that has their Kubernetes and I want to go to another, is it similar enough? Can I make that move? Do I need a vendor-independent version? >> So I think up to this value line I've run this container, ship the log somewhere, give me a way to secure access, that's pretty standard. Give me a load balancer. What isn't standard is how do I do CI-DC on top of that, that's not standard. There's different opinions on how to do that. If I'm in Google Cloud, we have IEM one way, Azure has IEM a different way, and same thing for Amazon. There's things around networking, security, that are going to be different based on the environment you're in. Same for on-prem, and that's where you start to look for help. If I go to Google, I'm going to use GKE maybe instead of running it myself on just a bunch of VMs, so that's where you kind of see that little divide. >> Is that going to be custom work, that's a great point, security for instance, we'll just pull that out there. Is that going to automate and be seamless or is that going to be a work area that's always going to have to be differentiated or coded or? >> So for example, we have the big vulnerability recently in Kubernetes world, right? >> It's a big CVE, it affected everyone running Kubernetes. That's a thing, as a vendor, for us GKE people, we upgraded automatically for them and said hey, there's a CVE, it's going to be really scary when you read about it but hey, you're patched. We've taken care of you, so I think people will still look for that relationship. Will it always be custom? At the app level, that is a different story. When you run your container and you want to access the things in your environment, so if you're in Google Cloud you may want to talk to Spanner, you're going to need an IEM set of credentials. That's a little out of scope of Kubernetes, so that's going to be integration work that the provider will do. >> So the holy trinity of computing industry has always been storage, network, and compute, and it changes certainly with cloud and all the goodness that comes out from serverless and whatnot, so containers is interesting. We always love containers but I've heard conversations recently where it's like hey, I want to treat containers not as a first class citizen because it doesn't meet my security boundary. I'm going to put a VM around that and run that under the covers with say, Lambda. Is that feasible, is than an option? I've heard talk about it, is anyone doing that? Is that an alternative, is this going to introduce new elements? >> Let's put it right, in Kubernetes by defaults we chose to build on top of Docker. Industry momentum, great developer workflow, but you're right, it made a security trade off. We know VMs are a much tighter security boundary that people are comfortable with. In that world, at that time, they were too slow for what we needed to happen. Thanks to Intel and others who pulled the thread of let's make VMs faster. Recently you heard the announcement of Firecracker, right, it's part of a derivative from the Chrome VM and that thing is optimized for these kinds of workloads, containers and serverless workloads. Now we go from 10, 20 seconds to hundred milliseconds. Now it makes sense to probably have this become an underlying thing. Now that we have the speed, maybe people say hey, we can maybe take the security without sacrificing the performance. >> That's the trade off. >> Pulled on the thread, you mentioned Firecracker. There's still this tension between what's happening in Kubernetes and serverless. We saw Knative is a hot topic point. It's probably natural that there's some tension there because it's like oh wait, why do you need to learn any of this stuff because if serverless will just make it as a service and make it easy and you don't need to learn all that container stuff and everything, what do you say? >> If you're a Kubernetes user, if you really think about the very broad definition of serverless, meaning I'm not managing the database, I'm using a managed database, serverless database. Storage, I'm using S3 or Google Cloud storage, serverless. Your load balancer, also serverless. So most people in the Kubernetes ecosystem, networking, serverless, storage, serverless, their database, serverless. The only thing that you can say isn't serverless is this compute component, everything else is. Now people are looking at serverless as this spectrum. How serverless are you? If you're on-prem and you buy a server and you rack it and install Kubernetes, you're less serverless, you're probably not serverless at all, no matter what you do. Now, if you put a lot of work in, you can probably put a serverless interface on top. This is what native is designed to do for people. Maybe you have an organization that supports multiple businesses inside of your org. They may not know anything about Kubernetes. You just tell them hey, put your code here, it will run, oh, that feels serverless. You can provide a serverless experience. The delta then becomes what can we do between a container and a function, so the foundation of my keynote is exactly that. What does it mean to take a container and put it into Lambda? What do you have to change? In my presentation, I don't even read write the code. There's a small shim between the two worlds because you're already using managed services around it. We're not talking about throwing away Kubernetes and then starting over our entire architecture. We're swapping out the compute layer. One is a subset of the other. Lambda is about events and functions, Kubernetes is about container and run it however you want. You want to run it when an event comes in, that's native. You want to run it as a batch job, run it as a job. You want to run it as a long running service, run it as a deployment, so that's all we're really talking about here. When we break it down, you're just talking about compute. >> You talk a lot about automation in the CI-CD areas, that differentiation where the value is. In a world as automation goes faster, what does Kubernetes look like when it becomes automated away? Because I don't want to manage anything, why even have managed Kubernetes? It should just automatically, you mentioned the patching. In an automated world, is Kubernetes just running under the covers, how does Kubernetes look down the road in your mind, in terms of when automation comes in? >> I've been in this game maybe over 15 years and one thing holds true: most developers want to focus on the business logic. We hire them because that's their skillset. When they check in code, it would be really nice if you can take it from there and get it where it needs to be. That's been the holy grail. We see it in mobile, you build an app, you put it on the App Store, Apple gets it to every device on the planet, done. Now it's the server side turn to do this. Whether you're doing serverless functions, Kubernetes, VMWare, or Linux, if you have CI-CD in front of any of that, the developer can still have the same experience. I check in code and you're picking a different deploy target. If you did that five years ago, and you understood it, and you were using, let's say maybe Mesos or just VMs, you bring in Kubernetes, you don't even have to change this part of the equation. This is why I tell most people, just focus on this endgame. My keynote last year was about this is the endgame because this is your coacher, this is your change management process, this is your discipline, and this is just a target where that compute goes. >> Alright, we've got two minutes left. I want to get your thoughts and share with the audience who's not here, a big waiting list, I know there's some lobby con going on all around Seattle, people flew in. Great place too to actually have some good lobby con meetings around the lobby area. So what's happening here, in your mind's eye, now you're not in the throes of all the events, you're kind of in the wild here with us, everyone else. What's the top story, what's going on, what's the vibe, what are you extracting out of all this activity as a top story, top level stories here? >> I think everyone's finding their place. If you're a security vendor, you kind of know where your line is, right? I've got this Twistlock shirt on. They want to plan a world where they need to integrate closer to the developer workflow, not just on the infrastructure side. If you're selling load balancers, service mesh is a thing, where do you fit in? The lines are getting a lot clearer. Kubernetes is starting to say maybe we should stop here. Maybe service measures should take it from here and that's where Istio comes in. Traditional vendors can now play in this well-defined space. On the storage side, what are you integrating? Now we have the storage interface, like the container storage interface. Now, if you're a net app, you know where you fit into the puzzle. You don't need to have your own Kubernetes distro. Two years ago, everyone was trying to come out with their own Kubernetes distro so they can actually have an anchor. Now you're like, ah, now I know where to play and now we also know what's missing. After years of doing this, people look back and say there's a lot of stuff missing. It's OK now to go create something new. >> It's a clear visibility into the landscape. What about the impact to end users? What is notable in your mind in terms of highlights, impact to end user organizations really going through this quote digital transformation, which is very cloud-based of course, but they're certainly changing and impacting, what's your thoughts on the end user? >> We're using some of the same words now. Forget the technology piece, now we can all start to talk about the same things, so when we say container, we kind of now are talking about the same thing. When we start to talk about sidecars, whether that's a service mesh, Envoy sidecar, or something that adapts your existing code to the new world, now that we're using the same language, we can actually talk. Traditional enterprise can talk to the startups and have a meaningful conversation. >> That's awesome, any other observations here in terms of the size of the show? Got a lot more activity, feels a little bit like re:Invent, I'm bumping into people, swimming through the crowds, the swag's hot. >> It's 8,000 people here and it feels like there's more users that know nothing about Kubernetes so even though we're about five years in, it reminds me of when we were just getting started. >> Lot more work to do but great, congratulations on all the work you've done Kelsey. Really appreciate you taking the time every year to come on theCUBE. We love having you on, great commentary, great keynotes, very entertaining. Thanks for coming on, appreciate it. >> Awesome, thank you. >> I'm John Furrier, Cube here with Kelsey Hightower telling us about all the breakdown of KubeCon, CloudNativeCon, the beginning of the cloud tsunami is happening, certainly changing businesses, changing open source, it's changing, it's on a global scale. We're here with coverage for three days. We'll be right back with more after this short break.

(enlightening music) >> Hello everyone, I'm John Furrier here at theCUBE headquarters in Palo Alto, California, for a special CUBE Conversation. I'm the host of theCUBE here with my special guest, Monica Kumar, vice president of Oracle Cloud platform. Monica, thanks for joining me today. >> Thank you so much for having me. >> So Oracle Cloud has got some great stuff goin' on, one of the things I'm most intrigued about, I've heard a lot about, is this autonomous database. I have a lot of questions, want to dig into it and really unpack that, so first take a minute to explain, what is the autonomous database? >> You know, before I do that, John, can I ask you a question? >> Sure! >> You use a smartphone, right? >> Yep. >> Do you know what happens every minute of when we use a smartphone and use the internet, how much data gets generated? >> No. >> Okay, I'm going to tell you. >> Alright, good. >> 16 million text messages happen every single minute, about four million Google searches, we're talking four million YouTube videos watched, about a million Facebook pages are open, and half a million Tweets. Now think about the impact of all this data in just one minute. Somebody, somewhere, is finding this data useful, and can actually extract some value out of it. Now, you might have heard this also, that in the last two years, the world's 90 percent of data has actually been created, and it's doubling every two years. >> So my kid's LTE bill, that's why, they're watching Netflix, that's why I'm paying all this extra bandwidth. (laughs) This is a real world. I mean, I can imagine my iPhone, I got multiple apps on there, lot of power being used, but that's just one piece, like when I'm buying with Apple Pay, or I'm doing things around, there's a lot of mobility involved, what's the value of all this? >> Well see, there's also a lot of devices, I mean we talk about IoT. By the year 2021, or in about the next five years, there'll be 50 billion devices that will be collecting data, analyzing data, sharing data. So what we're talking about is the sheer volume of the data that's being generated. And ultimately, every organization is trying to figure out how to extract insights from this data, how to make their businesses run better because of those insights. Whether create new revenue streams, maybe optimize for efficiency, deliver better customer services. So that is the problem we are dealing with today is, how do we get more value out of that data? >> So how does it all work, I mean autonomous driving, you see cars around, Uber's been trying to do it, other people have fleets, cars all over the place. Autonomous database, I mean it sounds like it's self-driving, which implies that's what cloud is all about, automation. How does the check work, what's goin' on under the hood? >> Yeah so let me explain to you, I mean this is where Oracle comes in. We've been in the data and information business for over four decades. This is what we've done. We've actually been solving the hard problem for our customers when it comes to data management, and using data. And now with this new whole deluge of more and more data, who better than Oracle to solve this problem? And one of the more important ways in which we can solve this problem is by automation, is by the use of machine learning. So that's where we're moving as a company, is you're moving to adopt and embed more and more machine learning across our entire cloud portfolio. And one of the biggest things we're doing is what you're talking about, autonomous database, which is exactly that, it's combining machine learning with the decades and decades of the database optimizations that we've been putting out in the industry. It's the power of that combination, which has culminated into what we call autonomous database today. >> Is autonomous database on-premises and Cloud, or both, how does that work? >> Yes, Oracle's always been about choice, so definitely it's both. And I'll explain to you the cloud offering, in fact, you eluded to self-driving cars. It's very similar to that. So there are three core attributes of autonomous database. It's self-driving, self-securing, and self-repairing, and let me explain to you what I mean by each of those. So self-driving is really the database provisioning itself, upgrading itself, patching, tuning, monitoring, backing up, all of the functions that are very manual today, are all done by autonomous database itself, so that's the self-driving part. Self-securing, applying all of the security patches by itself so the user doesn't have to worry about it. And the self-repairing is really focused on maximizing uptime, productivity. So today we offer with autonomous 99.995 percent uptime, which means 2.5 minutes of downtime or less per month, per month, which includes, by the way, both planned and unplanned downtime. So that's what autonomous database is, it's using the power of machine learning to automate all of the manual tasks that a human being is doing, which is really not of high value, which is really very administrative type of work. >> So I can see some of the time things are great for customers, what other benefits do those customers have in terms of having this, obviously automation takes away a lot of, makes free time, but what specific benefits do you guys see coming out of this for customers? >> Yeah, absolutely, I think for businesses it's all about outcome. So there are three major benefits of autonomous. The first one is reducing cost, it's making sure that the administrative times, I'll give you an example, we now with autonomous can cut off the administrative time by 80 percent, the cost of administering a database. So that's real hard savings for the customer, and they can then take that and put into something else that more strategic to them. It's about reducing risk. The risk of breeches, which could cause reputational damage to companies, which could cause, shareholder value loss. So the fact that we are reducing risk with autonomous technology is another big benefit. And the third, and the most important one, is really innovation, the time to innovation, the time to insights, more productivity for the customer. So those three, in my opinion, are the top three benefits >> To organizations. >> Now being agile, having flexibility, the cloud certainly brings that scale out mentality, that server list we hear things like that in the industry, so certainly very relevant, and machine learning makes that automation happen. Love that message. The question I would have for you is okay, in my mind, I'm trying to think, how would I buy this, how would I use it? What are some of the offerings that you guys have, is it turnkey box, is it software, how do you roll this out to customers, how do they consume it? Take us through the offering itself. >> Sure, today we offer autonomous in our cloud in two different offerings. One is autonomous data warehouse, which is purely for analytics, so you can actually create new data warehouses, or data mods to get insights from your data. The second one is transaction processing, it's autonomous transaction processing, which can be used to develop applications, to deploy applications, high-performance workloads, mission-critical workloads in the cloud. So those are the two ways we can do, in fact, we have many customers who are using our technology today in our cloud. But like I said, this is also going to be available in on-premises as well. >> That's awesome. So, when you get into the customer examples, who's using this now? Is it shipping? What's the status of it? I mean this gets a lot of attention, and the press articles are great. We covered it on SiliconANGLE, what are the customer examples? >> Absolutely, so of course it's shipping, and it's the first and only self-driving database in the industry. We have many, many customers for the last few months who are using it. I'll give you a few examples. We have a major Enterprise car rental company who is using it, and they were able to cut down their time to provision databases from two weeks to eight minutes. Now what does that mean? That means they can now roll out projects faster, and improve their customer services and offers they are making to customers. We have another customer who is in the shipping and oil industry, and they've cut down their time to querying complex data sets from 20 minutes to a few seconds. Again, which means they can get access to insights much faster to make decisions. And they've also eliminated downtime from patching because everything is done online, patching is done automatically on the database while it's running online. And then we have another customer who's a managed service provider. They're now able to provision their customers 10 times faster. So that means they can grow their business, they can provision more customers, their current customers can be happier because they are supporting them better and faster. >> What are some of the comments and messages, to kind of go off tangent for a second here but, I mean, they go "Wow, this is amazing"? What's some of the feedback you're getting? What are they saying, what are some the anecdotal comments? Share some color around that. >> Sure, I mean one of the big comments is "Wow! Me, I'm a DB, I thought this was "going to take my job away, but actually, "to the contrary, it's making my job easier." DBAs are now realizing they can actually manage many more databases efficiently in the same time that they were doing before. And secondly, they don't have to be involved in manual drudgery tasks, they can now offload all of that to autonomous database, and they can now focus on more strategic tasks. They can become a partner to the business, they can focus on application life-cycle management, on data security, on data architectures. So that's the one reaction we are getting is like "Wow, I didn't realize how much of my time "I was spending doing maintenance stuff, "which really adds no value to the organization." So customers are seeing a lot of productivity gains. I think the second thing is the speed of innovation. The fact that it would take them three months, six months, to deploy new projects, and now they can do it quickly within a few minutes is actually unbelievable to them. >> This is a real good point, I just want more double-down on that real quick, because one of the things we're seeing is, across all the events we go to, that message of the fear of "Oh my god, "I'm going to lose my job" or "I'm going to be automated away" actually isn't true. If they get re-deployed in other easier jobs, I don't want to say easier, but all the mundane tasks can be automated, that's a good thing. The security thing about the patching and self-updating, that's amazing. But the skill gaps is a huge problem CIOs face is that they need more people. And cloud architects are the number-one demand jobs, so I mean this must be really refreshing to hear that when you say "Hey, you were doing "a DBA job before, or something else, "now you're a cloud architect." Are you seeing the cloud architect role become important, and if so, what are they doing? What's the role of a cloud architect, and how does this fit into that? >> Yeah, I think the way we describe it, I think it's close to cloud architect, but think about it from administering data, or managing databases to actually using databases to mine insights, it's a different mindset. So you're becoming a data professional from a data administrator. So as opposed to having a job of managing a database, that's not important, what's important is you use the database to get insights and make your business smarter. So now we are working with, for example, our DBA stakeholders, which have been our Oracle family for four decades, to help them re-skill, to new ways of thinking, to becoming data professionals, to becoming data architects, and like I said, focusing on things like data life-cycle management, how do you work with application developers, how do you work with lines of businesses when your line of business comes to you and says "Hey, I want a database tag deployed for XYZ", the ability for them to say "Of course, I can give it to you in minutes." as opposed to saying "Oh, you'll have to wait two months." Imagine that. >> Yeah they're helping people, and they're also, more important, they're powerful. >> Right, right. >> Okay, Oracle OpenWorld is happening, and so one of the conversations we're hearing, and certainly this is consistent throughout the industry, the role of security. I put my skeptic hat on like okay Monica, tell me the truth, is it really self-updating the security patches? What about the phishing attacks? There's a real paranoia on the security. Take me through the security, while you guys are comfortable with the security, what's the big message and what's the big feature of why it's so secure? >> Right. But before I do that, let me paint a picture for you. We all know the opportunity that comes with Cloud, it presents huge opportunities to organizations. But with every opportunity, there comes a challenge that needs to be solved. And like you said, security is a big challenge. We are talking about massive scale of security breeches happening in the industry. We are talking about bad guys having access to very sophisticated technologies to wage this war against us, the organizations, to get access to core data. And we are talking about the number of security issues that are happening multiplying and compounding, and I'll give you some data points. There are 3.5 million cyber security jobs that are open in the next couple years. We don't have enough people to fill those jobs, even if we did, we can't keep pace with the amount of security threats and challenges that we need to navigate and address. >> And by the way, that's a data problem by the way, too. >> Back to your data is the central value proposition. >> Exactly, and also the other point I want to give you, which is equally important is of all the breeches that have happened, 85 percent actually had to fix available, and yet it wasn't applied and the breech happened. So again, we are talking about human beings who are very busy >> The human error on the patch side is huge. Spear phishing and also patches are the two number one areas of security. >> Right, but also people are busy. You kind of say "Okay, I'm going to do this later, "I have so many other 10 things to take care of first, "and I'm going to apply this patch later." Now what happens is, that's why we need to throw automation and machine learning at this problem. I don't think we can solve it by throwing just more and more human man-power on it. We need to combine the power of human and machine to tackle this security problem, and that's what we're doing with autonomous database. Not only can we predict a breech before it happens, we can actually fix it before it becomes an issue. And that's what I'm talking about with the whole self-securing notion. That's the power of autonomous database. >> A few Oracle OpenWorlds ago, Larry Ellison said on stage, I'll never forget this, I actually loved the line, other people kind of gave him some heat for it, but he said "Security should always be on. "Off is the exception." Has that view permeated through Oracle? >> Oh, Oracle was built on that view. We have, if you look again at our history, and our customer base, we are supporting the largest and the biggest governments in the world. We support from federal governments, to state governments, to public sector, to every organization who cares deeply about security, and it's not just a government issue, it's every organization has to safeguard the data of their customers. I mean that's the law. Every single organization cares about it. Oracle was built on that, that's the foundation that we are built on. So for us, security is very important, that's the first design principle of our data management, and all of our technology solutions. >> Well you guys are in the middle of all the cloud action, for sure, we're covering you guys, it's great to have you on theCUBE. Monica, thanks for coming and sharing your story. Where can people find out more information on the autonomous database, this awesome new product? >> Well, it's going to be all over oracle.com, so I'd say go there at first and from there you can navigate to a lot of great content on autonomous database. We have customer studies, we have free trials, so you can take us for a spin. It's like driving a self-driving car, it's self-driving database. >> It's a Tesla. >> Yeah, it's like the Tesla of databases, exactly. >> Monica, thanks for coming, I'm John Furrier here for CUBE Conversation, we are in Palo Alto at our headquarters, I'm John Furrier with theCUBE, thanks for watching. (enlightening music)

from Orlando Florida it's the cube covering si P sapphire now 2018 brought to you by net app welcome to the cube I'm Lisa Martin with Keith Townsend and we are in Orlando Florida that sa piece a fire now 2018 or in the net out booth really cool sa piece a fire is an enormous event this is like the 25th year they've been doing it and it's been really interesting to learn Keith about sa P and how they have really transformed and one of the things that's critical is their partner ecosystem so we're excited to welcome back to the cube a cube alumni Paul Young who is the director of sa P go to market from Google platform Paul it's nice to see you thanks so what is the current news with Google and sa P so you know I think we're making a major push into this three Marquette I think the the yesterday's announcements are we all still have a four tire buy on a server online but we also brought up capacity all the way up to 20 terabytes so we really can handle pretty much all the customer base at this point so on the one end that's good there is however a lot of other stuff we're doing in the AI space in the joint engineering space with SCP and and a lot of work we're doing in the make it a lot easier for SUV customers to adopt the cloud right and and beyond just what's happening a lot in the market right now which is you know 80 percent of the customers who mu and s pieces in the cloud just do straight lift and shift so there's no for momentum with a it's just ticking the box you're in the cloud we're doing a ton of work in engineering on our own and with SCP right now to make that a much more valuable journey for the customers so yeah I don't wake up in the morning at Google and think what am I going to do today it's you know it's a there's a lot of stuff going on so Paul let's not be shy that we've had you on the cube before and your ear s AP alone and as you look out at the hyper scalars the big cloud providers s ap more or less has a reference architecture for how to do cloud how to do s AP and a hyper scale of cloud but it's not just about that base capability when I when I talk to my phone I love asking Google questions when I look at you know capabilities like AI and tensor flow and machine learning that gets me excited just in general what as you looked out at the Haifa scalers what excited you about Google is specific as you we were s ap work to fall 3 so what's so exciting about Google I did I joke internally I was I was a customer of recipes for seven years I did 20 years of SVP and and yeah and and then woke up one morning and decided to go to Google yeah I do I get this question a lot on the yeah my conversation always is it wasn't based on the cafeteria food there are other things to join me across it seriously cuz in my last roll at scpi I was working with all three the hyper scalars and one of the questions I always got from SCP people is well they're all just the same right or and when you actually work with them you discover the are different and that's no disrespect to anyone but they approach the world differently they all have different business models and and the Google thing that really put me is that the the kind of engineering and the future focus was just tremendous right this other girl could do was was immense and so I said I'll jump forward to the future and then will come back but just if you look at the investment school was making in AI and machine learning all the stuff we were order a Google i/o with the the you know custom-built testable computers that can just do an amazing performance greatness or but it's got to be applied right so so things that partially built with Deloitte it's a deletion of the demonstration for it but just to give an example of where we think the future is we build a model in Nai where we have we basically two invoices and we taught the AI system to do data entry and SCP so that's not an interface we didn't say hey here's an invoice and here's all the fields and we map them all across and here's ETL and here's other things we do right here's our interface mapping we literally said imagine you're an AP processor how do you enter an invoice and you give it detail universities and it spends a lot of time doing really stupid things trying to put addresses in the number field of someone else and then suddenly it works so how to enter an invoice and at that point it knows how to enter an invoice and then what you do is you give it more and more invoices or more and more different structures and it learns how to what an invoice is and it learns how to process that and then suddenly it can do complete data entry right so we build as a model this is sort of thing Google does just to test the limits Deloitte came along and said well that's really cool could we actually take it and run it as a product and so the light now has that in there there are engineering further out where literally you can give it any invoice it will it's not OCR it will look at the invoice and it will work out that is an invoice where all the bits you need are from it it will then work out how you would do data entry on that into an SUV system and it will enter the invoice that's a future world where I know SUVs already launched the I our own doing three-way match interesting we're talking about future won't where your your entire accounts payable Department is a Gmail inbox where they mail you invoices that you've never seen before but we're able to understand what a vendor is grantee as a vendor guarantee is not fraud checked and do the deed to entry completely automatically that is the massive new world right and that's just a tiny little bit of what we can do at Google we have it just pretty also we haven't demo running on the booth where we have tensorflow looking at pure experience pharmaceuticals right right we have we have a demo run on the booth which is a graphic of someone we're actually running at customers where we have a camera reading pharmaceutical boxes as they go past or their pinky perfect curlers in this case but it doesn't just look at the box and say I count one box it reads the text on the box but it reads the text in the box was in noise from STP was supposed to be manufactured and it comes back and says well am I putting double-strength pills and single side boxes is this most legal have I mean sent the correct box is it you know is the packaging correct it also knows what a good box looks like and it learns what a damaged box looks like a nice packaging looks like an it knows how to reject them and again that level of technology where we can monitor all of your production lines and give you guarantee quality and pharmaceuticals anywhere else tell me six months ago anyone even imagined that was possible we're doing that right now all right that that ability to work with SCP because it's all integrated with SCP we're doing Depot of efficient that ability to deliver that sort of capability at the speed we deliver that is world-changing right well you know one of the things that I just kept imagining as you gwangsu the description of invoicing thankee was on a run of the day I'm a small business owner and these things are troublesome like you get in an invoice and I'm thinking you know I got a deal my my wife does the Council of payable accounts receivable I'm like there has to be a way to automate get but then I thought about just those challenges like you get one person says an invoice that the invoices at the bottom right hand corner the the invoice numbers on the bottom right hand corner the the amount due etcetera etc just really silly questions that AI should be AI machine learning should be able to deal with build mederma yesterday on stage says that AI should all been human capability and that's a great example of how a I augments you might take a bit and it doesn't in the AP example it doesn't do a hundred percent correct all the time right it knows what it's wrong in the example of Joey runs your seat comes up and says the dates wrong here I need to fix it so it's taken the it's taken the menial work out of the process and it's lighten people really add value in it but it's also a great example of the cloud at work and what it's supposed to do right again if all you do is take official SCP and drop it in the cloud you're just running in a different place if you get to a world where with Google we we don't expose your data to everybody else but we understand what the world's invoices look like and we have that knowledge and we make the entire world more efficient by having the model know how to work that's a radically better place right and that's that's that's there's just never been that value prop before and that's it's a great big exciting thing to wake up in the morning to think that's what we do right so Lisa in the industry we have this term that data has credit I think it's fairly safe at the this week we can say that processing technology compute has gravity it's we had another guest on it says that they use a process and a technology in solution and one customer works out fine and another customer not the same results it's this complexity is this kind of dish 'part of technology that is just not easy to apply across across companies so the other part really quickly that I want to talk about is you know this isn't just about AI right it's not just about the future I mean one of the key in me I said I'm a long-term HCV customer I work a lot of customers everybody wants to get to the cool bit you know and though I always used to joke internally everybody wants to eat candy they're ready vegetables first right and so we better get you across or you can candida vegetables whichever way you've got to eat both there's some point right so um so look just getting customers into the club becomes one of the challenges it's one of the other areas where we're really applying engineering so I'm three weeks ago we bought della Strada as an example Villa Stratos is an amazing company what well so it does basically it's a plug into VMware you drop it into VMware and it watches your SUV systems running it profiles them and it works out what size capacity you're going to need in the cloud at the point where it's then got enough information it'll basically ping you and say hey I know no I'm not a machine do you want exactly the same performance at lowest price in the cloud or do you want better performance here's two configurations pick the one you want give it your Google user ID and password it will build the security build the application servers and begin a migration for you automatically depending on the timing demand the size the box between 30 minutes and two hours later you will have a running version of your SCP system in the closet never been done before that's been performance the way it works basically it's a bit a little bit of magic but it knows how much what's the minimum amount of data we need to ship across through NSEP it knows where all the data is hidden on the box on the disk then sdb needs to run and it just ships that first and then it fills in the gaps afterwards the repair mechanism so from there on the one hand you could do lists and share and frankly our competitors have been using it to do lift and shift in the past it over some a ton of potential right for a bunch of customers we can replicate their production boxes in real time and give them 30-second RPO RTO in high availability but that done but it's like that I can now take that replicated image and I can run operations on it I can run tests on I can run QE rebuilds were you because of the Google pricing model you don't pay me in advance you pay me in arrears for only the computer time that you use so you are a QA system you've got two days worth of work to rebuild it don't shut down your QA system pay me for two days rebuild and you're done or we have integrated it directly into the SDP upgrade tools so you can pipe across your system to us and we will immediately do a test upgrade for you into s4 HANA or you see us rocky or BW an Hana whatever you want I have a customer in Canada who really jumped from ECC e6 and hazard by 5 to s4 Hana using an earlier version of the tools in 72 hours with a lot of gaps to look at in between we reckon we're gonna crush that down into under 24 hours so under 24 hours we can you can literally click on an SUV server and we will not just bring you to the cloud but we will upgrade you all the way to the latest version and we we have all the components we've done it we're pushing that through right and so what we're doing now is taken the hard work and automating that so we can get to the really cool stuff in the eye side right that's way again this is where all of us for all the hyper scalers hosts you know SV systems we want to do something that's better than that right we want to make it easy to get there but we know that in order to justify what you do we're all have seven your room app 2x or hard on right so we want to make it really easy to do that and we want to make it incredibly easy to add in AI and all the other technologies along the way that's a DES and a pricing model that nobody will be right and that's that's a pretty cool place to be I'm mighty glad to be a good place I could tell by your energy so ease of use everybody wants that you talked about just the example of invoices how they can vary so dramatically and you know whether you're a small business owner to a large enterprise there's so much complexity and and fact that was one of the things that was talked about it was this morning well yeah when how so plot I was even talking about naming conventions and how customers were starting to get confused with all of the different acquisitions SAT has done so a I what Google is doing with AI on sa piece sounds like a huge differentiator so tell us as we wrap up here what makes you know in a nutshell Google different than the other hyper scale that s AP partners with and specifically what excites you about going to market with s AP at the base level your Google's just on a different scale from everybody right we are effectively put 25% of the internet if you look at our own assets we we own dark fiber that's equivalent to about 4% of the entire caballo sorry four times the entire capacity of the Internet right MA so my ability to deliver to those customers at scale and up performance levels just unchallenged in this space so you know it's a Google clearly is excelled in a lot of different areas it's been credibly starting to bring that to SVP and carry through but you're right that the the the value add ultimately isn't just the hey I can I can run you and I can run you better write the value add is so March we announced direct innovation rihana and Google bigquery when you're talking about bigquery right massive datasets that you can know Bridge to Hana if you're a retailer this is one last example I can now join all the ad tech data Google has so I can tell you all the agile currently run in Google once we march was being viewed anonymized in clusters so you can't tell the original consumers but I know that data and directly worded to bigquery and I can join at stp so I can now say you are advertising in this area let's being clicked on but I know you don't have the inventory to actually support the advertising so I want you to move advertising somewhere else right and so I can do that manually rename when I had any I to that the potential is is incredible right we've only just started so ya know next time I want the cube we'll see where we're at but it's a it's a fun place to be speaking the next time gasps have a conference coming up Google next is coming up at the end of July yeah it's we have a lot of announcements through probably the rest of the year right there's a lot of stuff going on as we come to massive scale in the SUV space so yeah anyone who's interested in this stuff especially even if you're just interesting the I stuff Google next is the place to be so sounds like it I'm expecting some big things from that based on what you talked about on how enthusiastic you are about being at Google Paul thanks so much for joining Keith and me back on the cube and we look forward to talking to you again Thanks thank you for watching the cube Lisa Martin with Keith Townsend @s AP Safire 2018 thanks for watching

>> Announcer: Live from Copenhagen, Denmark, it's theCUBE covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Hello, everyone, welcome back to theCUBE's exclusive coverage here in Copenhagen, Denmark for coverage of KubeCon 2018, part of the CNCF CloudNative Compute Foundation, part of the Linux Foundation, I'm John Furrier with my cohost, Lauren Cooney, the founder of Spark Labs. We're here with Kelsey Hightower, co-chair of the program as well as a staff engineer, developer, advocate, at Google Cloud Platform, a celebrity in the industry, dynamic, always great to have you on, welcome back. >> Awesome, good to be back. >> How are you feeling, tired? You've got the energy, day two? >> I'm good, I finished my keynote yesterday. My duties are done, so I get to enjoy the conference like most attendees. >> Great. Keynote was phenomenal, got good props. Great content format, very tight, moving things along. A little bit of a jab at some of the cloud providers. Someone said, "Oh, Kelsey took a jab at the cloud guys." What was that about, I mean, there was some good comments on Twitter, but, keeping it real. >> Honestly, so I work at a cloud provider, so I'm part of the cloud guys, right? So I'm at Google Cloud, and what I like to do is, and I was using Amazon's S3 in my presentation, and I was showing people basically like the dream of, in this case, serverless, here's how this stuff actually works together right now. We don't really need anything else from the cloud providers. Here's what you can do right now, so, I like to take a community perspective, When I'm on the stage, so I'm not here only to represent Google and sell for Google. I'm here to say, "Hey, here's what's possible," and my job is to kind of up-level the thinking. So that was kind of the goal of that particular presentation is like, here's all this stuff, let's not lock it all down to one particular provider, 'cause this is what we're here for, KubeCon, CloudNativeCon, is about taking all of that stuff and standardizing it and making it accessible. >> And then obviously, people are talking about the outcome, that that's preferred right now in the future, which is a multi-cloud workload portability. Kubernetes is playing a very key role in obviously the dev ops, people who have been doing it for many many years, have eaten glass, spit nails, custom stuff, have put, reaped the benefits, but now they want to make it easy. They don't want to repeat that, so with Kubernetes nice formation, a lot of people saying here on theCUBE and in the hallways that a de facto standard, the word actually said multiple times here. Interesting. >> Yeah, so you got Kubernetes becoming the de facto standard for computes, but not events, not data, not the way you want to compute those events or data, so the job isn't complete. So I think Kubernetes will solve a large portion of compute needs, thumbs up, we're good to go. Linux has done this for the virtualization layer, Kubernetes is doing it for the containerization, but we don't quite have that on the serverless side. So it's important for us all to think about where the industry is going and so it's like, hey, where the industry is moving to, where we are now, but it's also important for us to get ahead of it, and also be a part of defining what the next de facto standard should be. >> And you mentioned community, which is important, because I want to just bring this up, there's a lot of startups in the membership of CNCF, and when you have that first piece done, you mentioned the other work to be done, that's an opportunity to differentiate. This is the commercialization opportunity to strike that balance. Your reaction to that, how do you see that playing out? Because it is an opportunity to create some value. >> Honestly I'm wearing a serverless.com T-shirt right now, right, that's the startup in the space. They're trying to make serverless easy to use for everyone, regardless of the platform. I think no matter what side of the field you stand on, we need these groups to be successful. They're independent companies, they're going for ambition, they're trying to fill the gaps in what we're all doing, so if they're successful, they just make a bigger market for everyone else, so this is why not only do we try to celebrate them, we try to give them this feedback, like, "Hey, here's what we're doing, "here's what the opportunities are," so I think we need them to be successful. If they all die out every time they start something, then we may not have people trying anymore. >> And I think there's actually a serverless seg in the CNCF, right? And I think that they're doing a lot of great work to kind of start to figure out what's going on. I mean, are you aware what those guys are up to? >> Exactly, so the keynote yesterday was largely about some of the work they're doing. So you mentioned the serverless seg, and CNCF. So some of the work that they're doing is called cloud events. But they wanted to standardize the way we take these events from the various providers, we're not going to make them all work the same way, but what we can do is capture those events in a standard way, and then help define a way to transport those between different providers if you will, and then how those responses come back. So at least we can start to standardize at least that part of the layer, and if Google offers you value, or Amazon offers you value, you own the data, and that data generates events, you can actually move it wherever you want, so that's the other piece, and I'm glad that they're getting in front of it. >> Well I think goal is, obviously, if I'm using AWS, and then I want to use Asher, and then I want to go to Google Cloud, or I want my development teams are using different components, and features, in all of them, right? You want to be able to have that portability across the cloud-- >> And we say together, so the key part of that demo was, if you're using one cloud provider for a certain service, in this case, I was using Google Translate to translate some data, but maybe your data lives in Amazon, the whole point was that, be notified that your data's in Amazon, so that it can be fired off an event into Google, function runs a translation, and writes the data back to Amazon. There are customers that actually do this today, right? There are different pieces of stacks that they want to be able to access, our goal is to make sure they can actually do that in a standard way, and then, show them how to do it. >> A lot of big buzz too also going on around Kubeflow, that Google co-chaired, or co-founded, and now part of the CNCF, Istio service meshes, again, this points to the dots that are connecting, which is okay, I got Kubernetes, we got containers, now Istio, what's your vision on that, how did that play out? An opportunity certainly to abstract the weights of complexity, what's your thoughts on Istio? >> So I think there's going to be certain things, things like Istio, there are parts of Istio that are very low level, that if done right, you may never see them. That's a good thing, so Istio comes in, and says, "Look, it's one thing to connect applications together, "which Kubernetes can help you do "with this built-in service discovery, "how does one app find the other app," but then it's another thing to lock down security and implement policy, this app can talk to this app under these conditions. Istio comes in, brings that to the playing field. Great, that's a great addition. Most people will probably wrap that in some higher-level platform, and you may never see it! Great! Then you mention Kubeflow, now this is a workflow, or at least an opinionated workflow, for doing machine-learning, or some analytics work. There's too many pieces! So if we start naming every single piece that you have to do, or we can say, "Look, we know there's a way that works, "we'll give it a name, we'll call it Kubeflow," and then what's going to happen there is the community's going to rally around actually more workflow, we have lots of great technology wrapped underneath all of that, but how should people use it? And I think that's what I'm actually happy to see now that we're in like year four or five of this thing, as people are actually talking about how to people leverage all of these things that fall below? >> As the IQ starts to increase with cloud-native, you're seeing enterprises, and there's levels of adoption, the early adopters, you know, the shiny new toy, are pushing the envelope, fast followers coming in, then you got the mainstream coming in, so mainstream, there's a lot of usage and consumption of containers, very comfortable with that, now they're bumping into Kubernetes, "Oh wow, this is great," different positions of the adoption. What's your message to each one, mainstream, fast followers, early adoptives, the early adoptives keep pushing, keep bringing that community together, form the community, fast forward. What's the position, what's the Kelsey Hightower view of each one of those points of the evolution? >> So I think we need a new model. So I think that model is kind of out now. Because if you look at the vendor relationships now, so the enterprise typically buys off the shelf when it's mature and ready to go. But at this point now, a lot of the library is all in the programming languages, if you see a language or library that you need, if it's on GitHub, you look around, it's like, "We're going to use this open-source library, "'cause we got to ship," right? So, they started doing early adoption maybe at the library level. Now you're starting to see it at the service level. So if I go to my partner or my vendor, and they say, "Hey, the new version of our software requires Kubernetes." Now, that's a little bit early for some of these enterprises to adopt, but now you're having the vendor relationship saying, "We will help you with Kubernetes." And also, a lot of these enterprises, it's early? Guess what, they have contributors to these projects. They helped design them. I remember back in the day, when I was in financial services, JPMC came out with their own messaging standard, so banks could communicate with each other. They gave that to Red Hat, and Red Hat turns it into a product, and now there's a new messaging standard. That kicked off ten years ago, and now we're starting to see these same enterprises contribute to Kubernetes. So I think now, there's a new model where, if it's early, enterprises are becoming the contributors, donating to the foundations, becoming members of things like CNCF, and on the flip side, they may still use their product, but they want a say in their future. >> So you can jump in at any level as a company, you don't need to wait for the mainstream, you can have a contributor, and in the front wave, to help shepherd through. >> Yeah, you need more say, I think when people bought typical enterprise software, if there wasn't a feature in there, you waited for the vendor to do it, the vendor comes up with their feature, and tells you it's going to cost another 200 million dollars for this add-on, and you have no say into the progress of it, or the speed of it. And then we moved to a world where there was APIs. Look, here's APIs, you can kind of build your own thing on top, now, the vendor's like, "You know what? "I'm going to help actually build the product that I rely on," so if vendor A is not my best partner right now, I could pick a different vendor and say, "Hey, I want a relationship, around this open-source "ecosystem, you have some features I like right now, "but I may want to able to modify them later." I think that's where we are right now. >> Well I think also the emergence of open-source offices, and things like that, and, you know, enterprises that are more monolithic, have really helped to move things forward with their users and their developers. I'm seeing a lot of folks here that are actually coming from larger companies inside of Europe, and they're actually trying to learn Kubernetes now, and they are here to bring that back into their companies, that they want to know about what's going on, right? >> That's a good observation-- >> It's great. >> That open-source office is replacing the I'm the vendor management person. >> Well you need legal-- >> Exactly. >> And you need all of those folks to just get the checkmarks, and get the approval, so that folks can actually take code in, and if it's under the right license, which is super important, or put code back out. >> And it seemed to be some of the same people that were managing the IBM relationship. The people that were managing the big vendor relationship, right? This thing's going to cost us all this cash, we got to make sure that we're getting the right, we're complying with the licensing model, that we're not using more than we paid for, in case we get an audit, the same group has some of the similar skills needed to shepherd their way through the open-source landscape, and then, in many cases, hiring in some of those core developers, to sit right in the organization, to give back, and to kind of have that first-tier support. >> That's a really good point, Lauren. I think this is why I think CNCF has been so successful is, they've kind of established the guardrails, and kind of the cultural notion of commercializing, while not foregoing the principles of open-source, so the operationalizing of open-source is really huge-- >> I'm kind of laughing over here, because, I started the open-source organization at Cisco, and Cisco was not, was new to open-source, and we had to put open data into the Linux Foundation, and I just remember the months of calls I was on, and the lawyers that I got to know, and-- >> You got scar tissue to prove it, too. >> I do, and I think when we did CNCF, I was talking to Craig years ago when we kind of kicked that off, it was really something that we wanted to do differently, we wanted to fast track it, we had the exact license that we wanted, we had the players that we wanted, and we really wanted to have this be something community-based, which I think, Kelsey, you've said it right there. It's really the communities that are coming together that you're seeing here. What else are you seeing here? What are the interesting projects that you see, that are kind of popping up, we have some, but are there others that you see? >> Well, so now, these same enterprises, now they have the talent, or at least not letting the talent leave, the talent now is like, "Well, we have an idea, and it's not core "to our business, let's open-source it." So, Intuit just inquired this workflow, small little start-up project, Argo, they're Intuit now, and maybe they had a need internally, suck in the right people, let the project continue, throw that Intuit logo there, and then sometimes you just see tools that are just being built internally, also be product ties from this open-source perspective, and it's a good way for these companies to stay engaged, and also to say, "Hey, if we're having this problem, "so are other people," so this is new, right? This open-source usually comes from the vendors, maybe a small group of developers, but now you're starting to see the companies say, "You know what, let's open-source our tool as well," and it's really interesting, because also they're pretty mature. They've been banked, they've been used, they're real, someone depends on them, and they're out. Interesting to see where that goes. >> Well yeah, Derek Hondell, from VMware, former Linux early guy, brought the same question. He says, "Don't confuse project with product." And to your point about being involved in the project, you can still productize, and then still have that dual relationship in a positive way, that's really a key point. >> Exactly, we're all learning how to share, and we're learning what to share. >> Okay, well let's do some self awareness here, well, for you, program's great, give you some props on that, you did a great job, you guys are the team, lot of high marks, question marks that are here that we've heard is security. Obviously, love Kubernetes, everyone's high-fiving each other, got to get back to work to reality, security is a conversation. Your thoughts on how that's evolving, obviously, this is front and center conversation, with all this service meshes and all these new services coming up, security is now being fought in the front end of this. What's your view? >> So I think the problem with security from certain people is that they believe that a product will come out that they can buy, to do security. Every time some new platform, oh, virtualization security. Java security. Any buzzword, then someone tries to attach security. >> It's a bolt-on. >> It's, yeah. So, I mean, most people think it's a practice. The last stuff that I seen on security space still applies to the new stack, it's not that the practice changed. Some of the threat models are the same, maybe some new threat models come up, or new threat models are aggravated because of the way people are using these platforms. But I think a lot of companies have never understood that. It's a practice, it will never be solved, there's nothing you can buy or subscribe to-- >> Not a silver bullet. >> Like antivirus, right? I'm only going to buy antivirus, as long as I run it, I should never get a virus. It's like, "No!" That's not how that works. The antivirus will be able to find things it knows about. And then you have to have good behavior to prevent having a problem in the first place. And I think security should be the same way, so I think what people need to do now, is they're being forced back into the practice of security. >> John: Security everywhere, basically. >> It's just a thing you have to do no matter what, and I think what people have to start doing with this conversation is saying, "If I adopt Kubernetes, does my threat model change?" "Does the container change the way I've locked down the VM?" In some cases, no, in some cases, yes. So I think when we start to have these conversations, everyone needs to understand the question you should ask of everyone, "What threat model should I be worried about, "and if it's something that I don't understand or know," that's when you might want to go look for a vendor, or go get some more training to figure out how you can solve it. >> And I think, Tyler Jewell was on from Ballerina, and he was talking about that yesterday, in terms of how they actually won't, they assume that the code is not secure. That is the first thing that they do when they're looking at Ballerina in their programming language, and how they actually accept code into it, is just they assume it's not secure. >> Oh exactly, like at Google we had a thing, we called it BeyondCorp. And there's other aspects to that, if you assume that it's going to be bad if someone was inside of your network, then pretend that someone is already inside your network and act accordingly. >> Yep, exactly, it's almost the reverse of the whitelisting. Alright, so let me ask you a question, you're in a unique position, glad to have you here on theCUBE, thanks for coming on and sharing your insights and perspective, but you also are the co-chair of this progress, so you get to see the landscape, you see the 20 mile stare, you have to have that long view, you also work at Google, which gives a perspective of things like BeyondCorp, and all of the large-scale work at Google, a lot of people want to, they're buying into the cloud-native, no doubt about it, there's still some educational work on the peoples' side, and process, and operationalizing it, with open-source, et cetera, but they want to know where the headroom is, they want to know, as you said, where's the directionally correct vector of the industry. So I got to ask you, in your perspective, where's all this going? For the folks watching who just want to have a navigation, paint the picture, what's coming directionally, shoot the arrow forward, as service meshes, as you start having this service layer, highly valuable, creative freedom to do things, what's the Kelsey vision on-- >> So I think this world of computing, after the mainframe, the mainframe, you want to process census data, you walk up, give it, it spits it back out. To me, that is beautiful. That's like almost the ultimate developer workflow. In, out. Then everyone's like, "I want my own computer, "and I want my own programming language, "and I want to write it in my basement, "without the proper power, or cords, or everything, "and we're all going to learn how "to do computing from scratch." And we all learnt, and we have what we call a legacy. All the mistakes I've made, but I maintain, and that's what we have! But the ultimate goal of computing is like the calculator, I want to be able to have a very simple interface, and the computer should give me an answer back. So where all this is going, Istio, service mesh, Kubernetes, cloud-native, all these patterns. Here's my app, run it for me. Don't ask me about auto scale groups, and all, run it for me. Give me a security certificate by default. Let's encrypt. Makes it super easy for anyone to get a tailored certificate rotated to all the right things. So we're slowly getting to a world where you can ask the question, "Here's my app, run it for me," and they say, "Here's the URL, "and when you hit this URL, we're going to do "everything that we've learned in the past "to make it secure, scalable, work for you." So that may be called open-shift, in its current implementation with Red Hat, Amazon may call it Lambda, Google Cloud may call it GKE plus some services, and we're never going to stop until the experience becomes, "Here's my app, run it for me." >> A resource pool, just programmability. And it's good, I think the enterprises are used to lifting and shifting, I mean, we've been through the evolution of IT, as we build the legacy, okay, consolidation, server consolidation, oh, hello VMs, now you have lift and shift. This is not a lift and shift kind of concept, cloud-native. It is a-- >> It doesn't have to be a lift and shift. So some people are trying to make it a lift and shift thing, where they say, "Look, you can bolt-on some of the stuff "that you're seeing in the new," and some consultants are like, "Hey, we'll sit their and roll up the sleeves, "and give you what we can," and I think that's an independent thing from where we're pushing towards. If you're ready, there's going to be a world, where you give us your code, and we run it, and it's scary for a lot of people, because they're going to be like, "Well, what do I do?" "What knobs do I twist in that world?" So I think that's just, that's where it's going. >> Well, in a world of millions of services coming out on the line, it's in operating, automation's got to be key, these are principles that have to go get bought into. I mean, you got to understand, administration is the exception, not the rule. This is the new world. It's kind of the Google world, and large-scale world, so it could be scary for some. I mean, you just bump into people all the time, "Hey Kelsey, what do I do?" And what do you say to them? You say, "Hey, what do I do?" What's the playbook? >> Often, so, it's early enough. I wasn't born in the mainframe time. So I'm born in this time. And right now when you look at this, it's like, well, this is your actual opportunity to contribute to what it should do. So if you want to sit on the sidelines, 'cause we're in that period now, where that isn't the case. And everyone right now is trying to figure out how to make it the case, so they're going to come up with their ways of doing things, and their standards, and then maybe in about ten years, you'll be asked to just use what we've all produced. Or, since you're actually around early enough, you can participate. That's what I tell people, so if you don't want to participate, then you get the checkpoints along the way. Here's what we offer, here's what they offer, you pick one, and then you stay on this digital transformation to the end of time. Or, you jump in, and realize that you're going to have a little bit more control over the way you operate in this landscape. >> Well, jumping in the deep end of the pool has always been the philosophy, get in and learn, and you'll survive, with a lot of community support, Kelsey, thanks for coming on, final question for you, surprise is, you're no longer going to be the co-chair, you've co-chaired up to this point, you've done a great job, what surprised you about KubeCon, the growth, the people? What are some of the things that have jumped out at you, either good, surprise, what you did expect, not expect, share some commentary on this movement, KubeCon and CloudNative. >> Definitely surprised that it's probably this big this fast, right? I thought people, definitely when I saw the technology earlier on, I was like, "This is definitely a winner," "regardless of who agrees." So, I knew that early on. But to be this big, this fast, and all the cloud providers agreeing to use it and sell it, that is a surprise, I figured one or two would do it. But to have all of them, if you go to their website, and you read the words Kubernetes' strong competitors, well alright, we all agree that Kubernetes is okay. That to me is a surprise that they're here, they have booths, they're celebrating it, they're all innovating on it, and honestly, this is one of those situations that, no matter how fast they move, everyone ends up winning on this particular deal, just the way Kubernetes was set up, and the foundation as a whole, that to me is surprising that it's still true, four years later. >> Yeah, I mean rising tide floats all boats, when you have an enabling, disruptive technology like Kubernetes, that enables people to be successful, there's enough cake to be eating for everybody. >> Awesome. >> Kelsey Hightower, big time influencer here, inside theCUBE cloud, computing influencer, also works at Google as a developer advocate, also co-chair of KubeCon 2018, I wish you luck in the next chapter, stepping down from the co-chair role-- >> Stepping down from the co-chair, but always in the community. >> Always in the community. Great voice, great guy to have on theCUBE, check him out online, his great Twitter feed, check him out on Twitter, Kelsey Hightower, here on theCUBE, I'm joined here by Lauren Cooney, be right back with more coverage here at KubeCon 2018, stay with us, we'll be right back. (bright electronic music)

>> Welcome to our presentation here at VM World 2017. I'm John Furrier, co-host of The Cube, with Dave Vellante who's taking a lunch break. We are at VM World on the ground on the floor where we have Google's vice president of product management developer platforms Sam Ramji. Welcome to The Cube conversation. >> Great, thank you very much John. >> So you had a keynote this morning. You know, came up on stage, big announcement. Let's get right to it. That container as a service from Pivotal, VM Ware, and Google announced kind of a joint announcement. It was kind of weird. It wasn't a fully joint but it really came from Pivotal. Clarify what the announcement was. >> Sure, so what we announced is the result of a bunch of co-engineering that we've been doing in the open source with Pivotal around kubernetes running on bosh. So, if you've been paying attention to cloud foundry, you'd know that cloud foundry is the runtime layer and there's something called bosh sitting underneath it that does the cluster management and cluster operations. Pivotal is bringing that to commercial GA later this year. So what we announced with Pivotal and VMWare is that we're going to have cost incompatibility between Pivotal's kubernetes and Google's kubernetes. Google's kubernetes service is called Google Container Engine Pivotal's offering is called Pivotal Container Service. The big deal here is that PKS is going to be the standard way that you can get kubernetes from any of the Dell Group companies, whether that's VMWare, EMC. That gives us one consistent target for compatibility because one of the things that I pointed out in the keynote was inconsistency is the enemy in the data center. That's what makes operations difficult. >> And Kubo was announced at Cloud Foundry, Stu Miniman covered it, but that wasn't commercially available. That's the nuance, right? >> That's right, and that still is available in the open source. So what we've committed to is, we've said, every time that we update Google Container Engine, Pivotal Container Service is also going to update, so we have constant compatibility, that that's delivered on top of VMWare's infrastructure including NSX for networking and then the final twist is a big reason why people choose Google Cloud is because of our services. So Big Table, Big Query, a dynamically scaling data warehouse that we run an enormous amount of Google workloads on. Spanner, right. Which is why all of your data is consisted globally across Google's planet scaled data centers. And finally, all of our new machine learning and AI investments, those services will be delivered down to Pivotal Container Service, right, that's going to be there out of the box at launch and we'll keep adding to that catalog. >> It's just that Google Next was a lot of conversations, Oh Google's catching up to Amazon, Amazon's done a great job no doubt about it. We love Amazon. Andy Jassy was here as well. >> Super capable very competent engineering team. >> There's a lot of workloads in VMWare community that runs on AWS but it's not the only game in town. Jerry Chen, investor in Docker, friend of ours, we know, called this years ago. It's not going to be a one cloud winner take all game. Clearly. But there's the big three lining up, AWS, Microsoft, Google, you guys are doing great. So I got to ask you, what is the biggest misconception that people have about Google Cloud out in the market? 'Cause a lot of enterprises are used to running ops, maybe not as much dev as there is ops, and dev ops comes in with cloud native, there's a lot of confusion, what is the thing that you'd like to clarify about Google that they may not know about? >> The single most important thing to clarify about Google Cloud is our strategy is open-hybrid cloud. We think that we are in an amazing place to run workloads, we also recognize that compute belongs everywhere. We think that the durable state of computing is more of a mosaic than a uni-directional arrow that says everything goes to cloud. We think you want to run your containers and your VM's in clouds. We think you want to run them in your data centers. We also think you want to move them around. So we've been diehard committed to building out the open-source projects, the protocols to let all of that information flow, and then providing services that can get anywhere. So open-hybrid cloud is the strategy, and that's what we've committed to with kubernetes, with tensorflow, with apache beam, with so much of the open-source that we've contributed to Linux and others, and then maintaining open standards compatibility for our services. >> Well, it's great to see you at Google because I know your history, great open source guy, you know open source, it's been really part of your life, and bringing that to Google's great, so congratulations. >> There's a reason for that though, it's pragmatic. This is not a crazy crusade. The value of open source is giving control to the customer. And I think that the most ethical way that you can build businesses and markets is based on customer choice. Giving them the ability to move to where they want. Reducing their costs of switching. If they stay with you, then you're really producing a value-added service. So I've spent time in the operator shoes, in the developer shoes, and in the vendor shoes. When I've spent time buying and running the software on my own, I really always valued and preferred things that would let me move my stuff around. I preferred open source. So that's really the method to the madness here. It's not about opening everything up insanely, giving everything away. It serves customers better and in the long run, the better you serve customers, you'll build a winning business. >> We're here on the ground floor at VMWorld 2017 in Las Vegas, where behind us is the VM Village. And obviously Sam was on stage with the big announcement with Pivotal VMWare. And this is kind of important now, we got to debate now, usually I'm not the contrarian in the group, I'm usually the guy who's like yeah, rah rah, entrepreneurial, optimistic, yeah we can do that! You know that future's here, go to the future! But I was kind of skeptical and I told VMWare and I saw Pat Gelsinger and Michael Dell in the hallways and I'm like, they thought this was going to be the big announcement, and it was their big announcement, but I was kind of like, guys, I mean, it's the long game, these guys in the VMWare community, their operations guys, their not going to connect the dots and there was kind of an applause but not a standing ovation that Google would've gotten at a Google Next conference where the geeks would've been like going crazy. What is the operational dynamic that you're seeing in this market that Google's looking at and bringing value to, so that's the question for you. >> This is what the big change in the industry is is going from only worrying about increasing application velocity to figuring out how to do that with reliability. So there's a whole community of operators that I think many of us have left behind as we've talked about clouds and cloud data. We've done a great job of appealing to developers, enabling them to be more productive, but with operators, we've kind of said, well, your mileage may vary or we don't have time for you, or you have to figure it out yourself. I think the next big phase in adoption of cloud native technology is to say, first of all, open-hybrid, run your stuff wherever you want. >> Well you've got to have experience running cloud. Now you bring that knowledge out here. >> And that's the next piece. How do we offer you the tools and the skills that you need as an operator to have that same consistency, those same guarantees you used to have, and move everything forward in the future? Because if you turn one audience, one community, into the bad people who are holding everything back, that's a losing proposition, you have to give everybody a path to win, right? Everybody wants to be the good guy. So I think, now we need to start paying really close attention to operators and be approachable, right? I would like to see GCP become the most approachable cloud. We're already well known as the most advanced cloud. But can we be the easiest to adopt as well, and that's our challenge, to get the experience. >> You got to get that touch, that these enterprise teams historically have had, but it's interesting I mean, the mosaic you'd mentioned requires some unification, right? You got to be likable. You got to be approachable. And that's where you guys are going, I know you guys are building out for that, but the question is, for you, because Google has a lot of experience, and I know from personal knowledge Google's depth of people and talent, not always the cleanest execution out to the market in terms of the front-facing white glove service that some of these other companies have done, but you guys are certainly strong. >> Well, I think this is where Diane Greene has been driving the transformation, I mean like, she breathes, eats, sleeps, dreams enterprise. So, being both a board member at Google and being the SVP of Google Cloud, she's really bringing the discipline to say, you know, white glove service is mandatory. We have a pretty substantial professional services organization and building out partnerships with Accenture, with PWC, with Deloitte, with everyone to make sure that these things are all serviceable and properly packaged all the way down to the end user. So, no doubt there's more, more room for us to improve, there's miles to go on the journey, but the focus and the drive to make sure that we're delivering the enterprise requirements, Dianne never lets us stop thinking about that. >> It's like math, right, the order of operations is super important, and there's a lot of stuff going on in the cloud right now that's complex. >> Yes. >> Ease of use is the number one thing that we're hearing, because one, it's a moving a train in general, right? But the cloud's growing, a lot of complexity, how do you guys view that? And the question I want to ask you is, we know what cloud looks like today. Amazon, they're doing great. Multi-horse race if you will. But in 2022, the expectations and what it looks like then is going to be completely different, if you just take the trajectory of what's happening. So cleaning up kubernetes, making that a manageable, all the self updates, makes a lot of sense, and I think that's the dots no one's connecting here, I get the long game, but what's the customer's view in your opinion as someone who's sitting back and with the Google perch looking out over the horizon, 2022, what's it like for the customer? >> That's an outstanding question. So I think, 2022, looking back, we've actually absorbed so much of this complexity that we can provide ease of use to every workload and to every segment. Backing into that, ease of use looks different, like, let's think about tooling, ease of use looks different to an electrician verus a carpenter versus a plumber. They're doing different jobs, they need different tools, so I think about those as different audiences and different workloads. So if you're trying to migrate virtual machines to a cloud, ease of use means a thing and it includes taking care of the networking layer, how do we make sure that our cloud network shows up like an on premises network, and you don't have to set up some weird VPC configuration, how can those just look like part of your LAN subject to your same security controls. That's a whole path of engineering for a particular division of the company. For a different division of the company focused on databases ease of use is wow, I've got this enormous database, I'm straining at the edges, how do I move that to the cloud? Well, what kind of database is it, right? Is it a SQL database? Is it a NoSQL database? So engineering that in, that's the key. The other thing that we have to do for ease of use is upscaling. So a lot of things that we talked about before are the need to drive IT efficiency through automation. But who's going to teach people how to do the automation especially while they're being held to a very high SLA standard for their own data center and held to a high standard for velocity movement to the cloud. This is where Google has invented a discipline called SRE or site reliability engineering, and it's basically the meta discipline around what many people call dev ops. We think that this is absolutely teachable, it's learnable, it's becoming a growing community. You can get O'Reilly books on the topics. So I think we have an accountability to the industry to go and teach every operator and every operating group, hey here's what SRE looks like, some of your folks might want to do this, because that will give you the lift to make all of these workloads much easier to manage 'cause it's not just about velocity, it's also about reliability. >> It's interesting, we've got about a minute left or so. I'm just going to get your thoughts on this because you've certainly seen it on the developer side, stack wars, whatever you want to call them, the my stack runs this tech, but last night I heard in the hallway here multiple times the general consensus of two stacks coming together, not just software stacks, hardware stacks, you're seeing things that have never run together or been tested together before. So the site reliability is a very interesting concept and developers get pissed off when stacks don't work, right? So this is a super kind of nuance in this new use case that are emerging because stuff's happened that's never been done before. >> Yeah, so this is where the common tutorials get really interesting, especially as we build out a planetary scale computer at Google. Right, we're no longer thinking about how does the GPU as part of your daughter board, we think about what about racks of GPU's as part of your datacenters using NVDIA K80's, what does it mean to have 180 teraflops of tensor processing capability in a cloud TPU. So getting container centric is crucial and making it really easy to attach to all of those devices by having open source drivers making sure they're all Linux compatible and developers can get to them is going to be part of the substrate to make sure that application developers can target those devices, operators can set a policy that say, yes, I want this to deploy preferentially to environments with a TPU or a GPU and that the whole system can just work and be operable. >> Great, Sam thanks so much for taking the time to stop by. One on one conversation with Sam Ramji who's a Google Cloud, he's a vice president of product management and developer platforms for Google. We'll see you at Google Next. Thanks for spending the time. I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. >> Thank you John.

>> Announcer: Live, from Boston, Massachusetts, it's the Cube. Covering Red Hat Summit 2017. Brought to you by Red Hat. (futuristic tone) >> Welcome back to the Cube's coverage of the Red Hat Summit here in Boston, Massachusetts. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight, along with my co-host Stu Miniman. We are welcoming right now Sam Ramji. He is the Vice President of Product Management Google Cloud Platforms. Thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you, Rebecca, really appreciate it. And Stu good to see you again. >> So in your keynote, you talked about how this is the age of the developer. You said this is the best time in history to be a developer. We have more veneration, more cred in the industry. People get us, people respect us. And yet you also talked about how it is also the most challenging time to be a developer. Can you unpack that a little bit for our viewers? >> Yeah, absolutely. So I think there's two parts that make it really difficult. One is just the velocity of all the different pieces, how fast they're moving, right? How do you stay on top of all the different latest technology, right? How do you unpack all of the new buzzwords? How do you say this is a cloud, that's not a cloud? So you're constantly racing to keep up, but you're also maintaining all of your old systems, which is the other part that makes it so complex. Many old systems weren't built for modernization. They were just kind of like hey, this is a really cool thing, and they were built without any sense of the history, or the future that they'd be used in. So imagine the modern enterprise developer who's got a ship software at high rates of speed, support new business initiatives, they've got to deliver innovation, and they have to bridge the very new with the very old. Because if your mobile app doesn't talk to your mainframe, you are not going to move money. It's that simple. There's layers of technology architecture. In fact, you could think of it as technology archeology, as I mentioned in the keynote, right, this we don't want to create a new genre of people called programmer archeologists, who have to go-- >> I'm picturing them just chipping away. >> Sam: I don't think it'll be as exciting as Indiana Jones. >> No. >> Digging through layers of the stack is not really what people want to be doing with their time. >> Sam: Temple of the lost kernel. >> I love it. >> So Sam, it's interesting to kind of see, I was at the Google Cloud event a couple months ago, and here you bring up the term open cloud, which part of me wants to poke a hole in that and be like, come on, everybody has their cloud. Come on, you want to lock everybody in, you've got the best technology, therefore why isn't it just being open because it's great to say open and maybe people will trust you. Help explain that. >> Puppies, freedom, apple pie, motherhood, right. >> Stu: Yeah, yeah. (laughs) >> So there's a couple sides to that. One, we think the cloud is just a spectacular opportunity. We think about 1.2 trillion dollars in current spend will end up in cloud. And the cloud market depending on how you measure it is in the mid 20 billions today. So there's just unbounded upside. So we don't have to be a aspirational monopolist in order to be a successful business. And in fact, if you wind the clock forward, you will see that every market ends up breaking down into a closed system and a closed company, and an open platform. And the open platforms tend to grow more slowly, sort of exponential versus logarithmic, is how we think about it. So it's a pragmatic business strategy. Think about Linux in '97. Think about Linux in 2002. Think about Linux in 2007. Think about Linux in 2012. Think about Linux today. Look at that rate. It's the only thing that you're going to use. So open is very pragmatic that way. It's pragmatic in another direction which is customer choice. Customers are going to come for things that give them more options. Because your job is to future proof your business, to create what in the financial community call optionality. So how do you get that? In 2011, about eight other people and I created a nonprofit called the Open Cloud Initiative. And the Initiative is long since dead, we didn't fund it right, we kind of got these ideas baked, and then moved on. >> Stu: There's another OCI now. >> That's right, it's the Open Container Initiative. But we had three really crisp concepts there. We said number one, an open cloud will be based on open source. There won't be stuff that you can't get, can't replicate, can't build yourself. Second, we said, it'll have open access. There'll be no barriers to entry or exit. There won't be any discrimination on which users can or can't come in, and there won't be any blockers to being able to take your stuff out. 'Cause we felt that without open access, the cloud would be unsafe at any speed, to borrow a quote from Ralph Nader. And then third, built on an open ecosystem. So if you are assuming that you have to be able to be open to tens of thousands of different ideas, tens of thousands of different software applications, which are maybe database infrastructure, things that as a cloud provider, you might want to be a first party provider of. Well those things have to compete, or trade off or enrich each other in a consistent way, in a way that's fair, which is kind of what we mean when we say open ecosystem, but being able to be pulled through is going to give you that rate of change that you need to be exponential rather than logarithmic. So it's based on some fairly durable concepts, but I welcome you to poke holes in it. >> So we did an event with MIT a little while back. We had Marshall Van Alstyne, professor at BU who I know you know. He's an advisor at Cloud Foundry, and he talked about those platforms and it was interesting, you know, with the phone system you had Apple who got lots of the money, smaller market share as opposed to Android, which of course comes out of Google, has all of the adoption but less revenue. So, not sure it's this, yeah. >> Interestingly, we've run those curves, and you kind of see that same logarithmic versus exponential shift happening in Android. So we've seen, I don't have the latest numbers on the top of my head, but that is generating billions of dollars of third party revenue now. So share does shift over time in favor of openness and faster innovation. >> So let's bring it back to Red Hat here, because if I talk to all the big public cloud guys, Microsoft has embraced open source. >> And they're not just guys, actually, there's lots of women. >> Rebecca: Yes, thank you. >> Stu: I apologize. >> Sorry, I'm in a little bit of a jam here, where I'm trying to tell people the collective noun for technologists is not guys. >> Stu: Okay. >> It could be people, it could be folks, internally we use squirrels from time to time, just to invite people in. >> So, when I talk to the cloud squirrels, Microsoft has embraced open source. Amazon has an interesting relationship. >> I was there when that happened. >> You and I both know the people that they've brought in who have very good credibility in the open source community that are helping out Amazon there. Is it Kubernetes that makes you open because I look at what Red Hat's doing, we say okay, if I want to be able to live across many clouds or in my own data centers, Kubernetes is a layer to do that. It comes back to some of the things like Cloud Foundry. Is that what makes it open because I have choice, or is there more to it that you want to cover from an open cloud standpoint, from a Google standpoint? >> Open and choice effectively is a spectrum of effort. If it's incredibly difficult, it's the same as not having a choice. If it's incredibly easy, then you're saying actually, you really are free to come and go. So Kubernetes is kind of the brightest star in the solar system of open cloud. There's a lot of other technologies, new things that are coming out, like istio and pluri. I don't want to lose you in word soup. Linker D, container D, a lot of other things, because this is a whole new field, a whole fabric that has to come to bear, that just like the internet, can layer on top of your existing data centers or your existing clouds, that you can have other applications or other capabilities layered on top of it. So this permission-less innovation idea is getting reborn in the cloud era, not on top of TCP/IP, we take that for granted, but on top of Kubernetes and all of the linked projects. So yeah, that's a big part of it. >> I want to continue on with that idea of permission-less innovation and talk about the culture of open source, particularly because of what you were saying in the keynote about how it's not about the code, it's about the community. And you were using words like empathy and trust, and things that we don't necessarily think of as synonymous with engineers. >> Sam: Isn't it? >> So, can you just talk a little bit about how you've seen the culture change, particularly since your days at Microsoft, and now being at Google, in terms of how people are working together? >> Absolutely, so the first thing is why did it change? It became an economic imperative. Let's look at software industry competition back in the 90s. In general, the biggest got the mostest. If you could assemble the largest number of very intelligent engineers, and put them all on the same project, you would overwhelm your competition. So we saw that play out again and again. Then this new form of collaboration came around, not just birthed by Linux, but also Apache and a number of other things, where it's like oh, we don't have to work for the same company in order to collaborate. And all of a sudden we started seeing those masses grow as big as the number of engineers who went a single company. Ten thousand people, ten thousand engineers, share the copyright to the Linux kernel. At no point have they worked at the same company. At no point could a company have afforded to get all of them together. So this economic imperative that marks what I think of as the first half of the thirty years of open source that we've been in. The second half has been more us all waking up, and realizing open source has got to be inclusive. A diverse world needs diverse solutions built by diverse people. How do we increase our empathy? How do we increase our understanding so that we can collaborate? Because if we think each other is a jerk, if we get turned off of building our great ideas into software because some community member has said something that's just fundamentally not cool, or deeply hurtful, we are human beings and we do take our toys away, and say I'm not going to be there. >> That's the crux of it too. >> It's absolutely a cutthroat industry, but I think one of the things I'm seeing, I've been in Silicon Valley for 22 years, less three years for a stint at Microsoft, I've actually started to see the community become more self-reflective and like, if we can have cutthroat competition in corporations, we don't have to make that personal. 'Cause every likelihood of open source projects is you're employed as a professional engineer at a company, and that employment agreement might change. Especially in containers, right? Great container developers you'll see they move from one company to another, whether it's a giant company like Google, or whether it's a big startup like Docker, or any range of companies. Or Red Hat. So, this sort of general sense that there is a community is starting to help us make better open source, and you can't be effective in a community if you don't have empathy and you don't start focusing on understanding code of conduct community norms. >> Sam, I'm curious how you look at this spectrum of with this complexity out there, how much will your average customer, and you can segment it anywhere you want, but they say, okay I'm going to engage with this, do open source, get involved, and what spectrum of customers are going to be like, well, let me just run it on Google because you've got a great platform, I'm not going to have Google engineers and you guys have lots of smart people that can do that in any of the platform. How do you see that spectrum of customer, is it by what their business IT needs are, is it the size of the customer, is there a decision tree that you guys have worked out yet to try to help end users with what do they own, what do they outsource? It's in clouds more than outsourcing these days. The deal of outsourcing was your mess for less, and this should be somewhat more transformational and hopefully more business value, right? >> Yeah, Urs Hölzle, who's our SVP of Technical Infrastructure, says, the cloud is not a co-location facility. It is different, it is not your server that you shipped up and you know, ran. It's an integrated set of services that should make it incredibly easy to do computing. And we have tons of very intelligent women and men operating our cloud. We think about things like how do you balance velocity and reliability? We have a discipline called site reliability engineering. We've published a book on it, a community is growing up around that, it's sort of the mainstream version of dev ops. So there are a bunch of components that any company at any size can adopt, as long as you need both velocity and reliability. This has always been the tyranny of the or. If I can move fast I can break things, but even Mark Zuckerberg recently said you know, move fast and break fewer things. Kind of a shift, 'cause you don't want to break a lot of people's experience. How do you do that, while making sure that you have high reliability? It really defies simple classification. We have seen companies from startups to mom and pop shops, all the way to giant enterprises adopting cloud, adopting Google cloud platform. One of the big draws is of course, data analytics. Google is a deeply data intensive business, and we've taken that to eleven basically with machine learning, which is why it was so important to explain tense or flow, offer that as open source, and be able to move AI forward. Any company, at any size that wants to do high speed, high scale data analytics, is coming to GCP. We've seen it basically break down into, what's the business value, how close is it to the decision maker, and how motivated is an engineer to learn something different and give cloud a try. >> Because the engineer has to get better at working with the data, understanding the data, and deriving the right insights from the data. >> You're exactly right. Engineers are people, and people need to learn, and they need to be motivated to change. >> Sam, last question I have for you is, you've been involved in many different projects. We look at from the outside and say, okay, how much should be company driven, how much does a foundation get involved? We've seen certain foundations that have done very well, and others that have struggled. It's very interesting to watch Google. We'd give you good as we've talked on the Cube so far. Kubernetes seems to be going well. Great adoption. Google participates, but not too much, and Red Hat I think would agree with that. So congratulations on that piece. >> Sam: Thank you. >> What's your learnings that you've had as you've been involved in some of these various initiatives, couple foundations. We interviewed you when you were back at the Cloud Foundry, and things like that, so, what have you learned that you might want to say, hey, here's some guidelines. >> Yeah, so I think the first guideline is the core of a foundation is, the core purpose of a foundation is bootstrapping trust. So where trust is missing, then you will need that in order to create better contribution and higher velocity in the project. If there's trust there, if there's a benevolent dictator and everyone says that person's fine or that company's fine, then you won't necessarily need a foundation. You've seen a lot of changes in open source startups, dot coms that are also a dot org, shifting to models where you say well, this thing is actually so big it needs to not be owned by any one company. And therefore, to get the next level of contribution, we need to be able to bring in giant companies, then we create trust at that next level. So foundations are really there for trust. It's really important to be strong enough to get something off the ground, and this is the challenge we had at Cloud Foundry, it was a VMware project and then a Pivotal project, and many people believe this is great open source, but it's not an open community, but the technology had to keep working really well. So we how do we have a majority contributor, and start opening up, in a thoughtful process and bringing people in, until you can say what our target is to have the main contributor be less than 50% of the code commits. 'Cause then the majority is really coming from the community. Other projects that have been around for longer, maybe they started out with no majority. Those organizations, those projects tend to be self-organizing, and what they need is just a foundation to build a place that people can contribute money to, so the community can have events. So there's two very different types of organizations. One's almost like a charity, to say I really care about this popular open source project, and I want to be able to give something back, and others are more like a trade association, which is like, we need to enable very complex coordination between big companies that have a lot at stake, in which case you'll create a different class of foundation. >> Great, well Sam Ramji, thank you so much for being with us here on the Cube. I'm Rebecca Knight, and for your host Stu Miniman, please join us back in a bit. (futuristic tone)

(upbeat music) >> Okay, welcome back everyone we are here in Palo Alto for the special CUBE coverage of Mobile World Congress 2017. In our studio breaking down all the action happening in Barcelona, for the next two days, wall-to-wall coverage. I'm John Furrier, and our next guest is Michael Foran, who's a product manager at SAP, formerly HANA Cloud, now called SAP Cloud. They renamed it, part of the big news at Mobile World Congress. Michael, thanks for stopping in and sharing your thoughts on SAP Cloud and the impact at Mobile World Congress. >> Thank you for having me. >> So you guys have, we've been following, obviously your Cloud game since the initiative started, the announcement, and then kind of like the slow start, but last Sapphire, SAP Sapphire in Orlando, which we had theCUBE there live, really was the release of the cloud, the announcement of the Apple deal. Now that's going to be the big news here at Mobile World Congress this week is the shipping of that general availability of the iOS developer kit. Once you guys hit the market with the product, it's just been rolling, incrementally getting better. And you changed the name from HANA Cloud to just SAP cloud. I interviewed Dan Lahl earlier about what that means. I don't want to get into that, but it means that SAP's now sassifying all their products. As the project manager, you got to put the roadmap together with the team, so I'm sure you have to balance really two camps, right? You got the SAP installed base which SAP, in my many conferences with Bill McDermott, the CEO, it's you guys run, the biggest businesses are running on SAP. So you have a huge install base. At the same time, the cloud brings Greenfield developers, cloud native, which don't have any SAP in it. So it's the merging of the best of both worlds. That's a product challenge, so I want to get your thoughts. What's the key thing for folks to be aware of at Mobile World Congress this year about the aha moment for SAP cloud? What is that key product feature that bridges the cloud native with the pre-existing SAP? >> Well, that's one of the benefits of having the cloud platform like ours, right John? Because we wanted to support this concept of the bimodal IT because we recognize that a lot of our existing customers really wanted to leverage their existing investments, but at the same time be able to address a lot of the upcoming innovations and being able to address even their change in work force, for example. They want to be able to utilize and adapt, I guess, to a key word that people kind of throw around there as being agile. And being agile means helping the customer be able to adapt efficiently and economically to the changes, whether it's user expectations. I read somewhere like some of the workforce by 2020's going to be 75% millennials, and their expectations of their product experience is going to be much different than what traditional users have been. And at the same time you have a business that you've kept running for a long time and you don't want to just change the way that they've been doing things. You want to have those things there but at the same time bring new innovations. And with the HANA cloud platform, you're going to be given a set of tools and services, as you've probably heard from Dan already, that's going to enable you to do that, bringing new innovations like IoT and machine learning, and so forth. >> And you got the use cases, you got people who actually are building apps, and just last Friday on my Silicon Valley Friday show I interviewed Paul Martino, who had probably one of the best quotes He's also an investor in Bullpen Capital, he does a lot of startup action. But there's been a democratization of entrepreneurship because it's so easy to build apps. Could be a 16 year old in the basement to the dorm room to the old age home where guys my age are building apps. So this is kind of like an app tsunami happening. So that's cool, that's cloud native, great market for that. But then this integration that's really big, because now apps are great by themselves, but if you look at Mobile World Congress, the key theme is 5G and 10, so apps got to start playing well with others. You hear microservices, talk about machine learning, these are now the new tools of the trade to bring that building block approach. Do you guys agree with that, and what are you guys doing specifically to facilitate that seamless integration, the building blocks, is it microservices, is it servantless architecture? Can you share some thoughts on that? >> Yeah, you're absolutely right, and this is where businesses have come. And helping enterprises grow, you mentioned starting with small companies and so forth, but as they grow, what we recognize from customers is that their landscape becomes really heterogeneous. They're trying to integrate best of breed software and so forth, and having a platform like ours that's able to integrate into those things is the perfect utility and the perfect platform for doing that in the essence that we are able to. Let's look at it from the end consumer experience or the end business user. If we do technology right, the technology that's underlying it should be almost invisible. It doesn't matter that they're accessing five, six different systems in order to do their job. With the cloud platform we have a way of being able to integrate all those systems and be able to present it as one experience, one UI, friendly, user-friendly UI and using like, for example, our Fiori user experience and paradigm. >> What's the integration point? Because I think this is something that the developer, developers are fickle, right? I mean, developers are great, but also they wield a lot of power and they're moving to the front lines with their apps, but at the end of the day, the business outcomes are really where the holy grail is. And that's where the developers are getting close to, they're getting close to the outcomes and they're part of that process. So they're out developing, they're slinging their code around, slinging their APIs around, doing all this great stuff with microservices, but sometimes they don't really think about the integration. That's why DevOps was so good. They let the infrastructures be programmable. Some of the times it's not that easy to program integration. Sometimes you have to really understand that. Are we going to have programmable integration playbooks and templates, how is that evolving? Because this seems to be the hot area where, okay, infrastructure is code, I can see that, that's working great, how do you connect down and make it work so that the integration works better? >> Kind of the approach we've kind of taken is that when you're doing integration between systems and so forth, it's best to do it through well-defined APIs, that where there's a decoupling of the system. That way the systems that you're interacting with are not so dependent upon each other. So if one piece changes, the others can still run, as long as that API, or that handshake, if you will, doesn't change. And you brought up a another good point as far as having the developers and business people work in a more collaborative fashion. Because at the end of the day this is what we want to target, we want to enable the business users to be able to have applications that they're comfortable with, that they're able to be efficient with. And the way we're doing that is, we're putting services on top of the platform that's going to allow them to be really, the guys who are actually designing the applications at the end of the day, that they're ones that they're going to be using. Because we in the past have made some bad compromises when you're designing software because you got the business person saying, hey this I want to see and then you got the developer saying, this is actually what I can achieve. But through the platform we offer this service called our build service, which basically allows the business analyst to essentially be the ones who become-- >> They're composing, not necessarily coding. >> Yeah, they're composing, but at the end of that composing, they're able to get that user feedback and go through the rounds of saying, is this the software that I really want to use? And when they're done with that, they're able to pass that along to developers and say, okay, great, I know exactly what you're using it for, now let me be the ones that help you tie into the various systems that perhaps I actually need to integrate with. >> Okay, Michael, tell us the big things that people should pay attention to this week during Mobile World Congress from the cloud. Is it the updates, what are the key news that gets your attention that you want people to look at and take notice of? >> I'm sorry. >> Okay, well, you guy had the, there's been some good proof points You guys had the new capabilities, got the iOS native kit. Is there any machine learning going on in the cloud? Can you share some insights? Because AI is certainly the hype factor right now. But machine learning and IoT, that kind of connects the dots on some of the cool features of what's going on now. >> That's absolutely right, John. In terms of machine learning, here's the thing, once we start integrating all these systems, we have a lot of information that's rolling into the system, essentially. How do you actually make use of that information? Part of it is, we're only human. What we would like to do with the technology is, give you some superpowers with the technology. The technology that we work with is not meant to replace you, but meant to augment what you're able to do. And machine learning's a great vehicle to do that in. This is one of the areas that I think you should be paying attention to. There's going to be a lot of stuff coming out on the platform in terms of services that's meant to aid you, meant to aid the developer and seeing how they can actually do their task a lot better. For example, some of the stuff that's coming to be coming down in the future on top of our platform is, we have this service called the CoPilot, which if you could imagine, it's a digital assistant. So if you're performing a task that you have somebody, have somebody sitting there next to you reminding you perhaps things to be cognizant of. For example, if you're trying to create a purchase requisition or what not and the system already knows that perhaps you're low on budget, these are things you need to be wary of, that's something that you can then act on right away without having to wait for that process of submitting the purchase requisition, getting it back and saying we can't approve this because of budgetary reasons. >> That's the speed of big data. You actually get the software working on new work flows. I want to get your take on, anecdotally speaking, you're the product guy, so you get to see what's going on with the requirements, the roadmaps, this is kind of the keys to the kingdom. I love talking to product guys because I used to be a product guy myself back in the old days. But you got think holistic, you got to look 20 miles down the road and think about those tradeoffs you mentioned earlier. What anecdotal things can you point to from customers that you see that seem to pop out as a trend that you guys are doubling down on? What's the key customer requirements that's the focus? >> Well, a lot of the things that we tend to see from customers these days is a trend actually back towards being able to use standard products. They don't want to do these hypercustomizations on the products themselves because we've seen where it's taken them, and that is -- >> Mean one offs, basically. >> Yeah. One offs and just changes to their system where they're so dependent on the customizations they're afraid to do these upgrades. So it makes them really slow to react and be agile in their business. So this is where having the SAP cloud platform, they're able to keep those things running and then being able to do the new innovations. It's really, from the customer's perspective, they're really asking us to-- >> Scale. >> Be able to scale. >> Is it scalability? >> It is scale. >> Okay, so scale seems to be. So talk about the Google Next coming up. I know you guy got announcements. I'm trying to get the news, although it's under a lot of confidentiality. You got Google, you got Amazon, you got Microsoft out there. Oracle has a cloud. I mean, we're living in a multi-cloud world. And it's pretty clear from our reporting and our analysis, Amazon is obviously doing very well, but it's not going to be a winner take all. Customers want to have multicloud. How do you guys view that conceptually and philosophically from the customer standpoint? >> The SAP cloud platform is a very open platform. We recognize this from the customer's perspective as well as that they don't want to be tied into any one vendor, they want to be able to do what they need to do without being tied to any specific one, and certainly with SAP cloud platform we're adopting that. You've heard of the announcements of the availability of us using Cloud Foundry on top of our platform as well and being able to bring in those Community Source and Open Source type products into the platform. And that also leverages existing investments from the customer's developer workforce. >> So you guys are open cloud, basically. You support open all the way. >> Absolutely. >> Okay, my final question for you, what's the most exciting thing that gets you jazzed up about the SAP cloud? >> I think the most exciting thing about my work and being able to do this stuff is really enabling and empowering people to do their jobs more efficiently. Because at the end of the day, none of us are really the people that want to just be administrators. And some of the applications, some of the things that we do make us administrators versus being a recruiter versus being an interviewer or whatnot. And we want to make software that really fits your needs and really helps you be what you're supposed to be doing and not an administrator. >> The best software is invisible, as I always say. Making it happen, Michael, thanks so much for spending the time here in theCUBE, appreciate it. You're watching two days of wall-to-wall coverage of theCUBE, covering Barcelona, Spain, covering Mobile World Congress 2017 from Palo Alto, analyzing and opining on all the news and commentary. I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. (upbeat techno music)

>> Announcer: Live from San Francisco it's The Cube covering Oracle OpenWorld 2016 brought to you by Oracle. Now here's your host, John Furrier and Peter Burris. >> Hey welcome back everyone. We are live in San Francisco at Oracle OpenWorld 2016. This is SiliconANGLE, the key of our flagship program. We go out to the events, extract a signal from the noise. I'm John Furrier, Co-CEO of SiliconANGLE with Peter Burris, head of Research at SiliconANGLE as well as the General Manager of Wikibon Research, our next guest is Siddhartha Agarwal, Vice-President of Product Management and Strategy of Oracle Cloud Platform. Welcome back to the Cube, good to see you. >> Yes, hi John. Great to be here. >> So I've seen a lot of great stuff. The core messaging from the corporate headquarters Cloud Cloud Cloud, but there's so much stuff going on in Oracle on all the applications. We've had many great conversations around the different, kind of, how the price are all fitting into the cloud model. But Peter and I were talking yesterday in our wrap-up about, we're the developers. >> Siddhartha: Yeah. >> Now and someone made a joke, oh they're at JavaOne, which is great. A lot of them are at JavaOne, but there's a huge developer opportunity within the Oracle core ecosystem because Cloud is very developer friendly. Devops, agile, cloud-native environments really cater to, really, software developers. >> Yeah, absolutely and that's a big focus area for us because we want to get developers excited about the ability to build the next generation of applications on the Oracle Cloud. Cloud-native applications, microservices-based applications and having that environment be open with choice of programming languages, open in terms of choice of which databases they want, not just Oracle database. NoSQL, MySQL, other databases and then choice of the computeship that you're using. Containers, bare metal, virtual environments and an open standard. So it's giving a very open, modern easy platform for developers so that they'll build on our platform. >> You know, one of the things that we always talk about at events is when we talk to companies really trying to win the hearts and minds of developers. You always hear, we're going to win the developers. They're like an object, like you don't really win developers. Developers are very fickle but very loyal if you can align with what they're trying to do. >> Siddartha: Yeah. >> And they'll reject hardcore tactics of selling and lock-in so that's a concern. It's a psychology of the developers. They want cool but they want relevance and they want to align with their goals. How do you see that 'cause I think Oracle is a great ecosystem for a developer. How do you manage that psychology 'cause Oracle has traditionally been an enterprise software company, so software's great but... Amazon has a good lead on the developers right now. You know, look at the end of the day you have to get developers realizing that they can build excellent, fun creative applications to create differentiation for their organizations, right, and do it fast with cool technologies. So we're giving them, for example, not just the ability to build with Java EE but now they can build in Java SE with Tomcat, they can build with Node, they can build with PHP and soon they'll be able to do it with Ruby and Daikon. And we're giving that in a container-based platform where they don't necessarily have to manage the container. They get automatic scalability, they get back up batching, all of that stuff taken care of for them. Also, you know, being able to build rich, mobile applications, that's really important for them. So how they can build mobile applications using Ionic, Angular, whatever JavaScript framework they want, but on the back end they have to be able to connect these mobile apps to the enterprise. They have to get location-based inside and to where the person is who's using the mobile app. They need to be able to get inside and tell how the mobile app's been used, and you've heard Larry talk about the Chatbot platform, right? How do you engage with customers in a different way through Facebook Messenger? So those are some of the new technologies that we're making very easily available and then at the end of the day we're giving them choice of databases so it's not just Oracle database that you get up and running in the Cloud and it's provision managed, automated for you. But now you can ask for NoSQL databases. You can have Cassandra, MongoDB run on our IaaS and MySQL. We just announced MySQL enterprise edition available as a service in the Public Cloud. >> Yeah one of the things that developers love, you know, being an ex-developer myself in the old days, is, and we've talked to them... They're very loyal but they're very pragmatic and they're engineers, basically they're software engineers. They love tools, great tools that work, they want support, but they want distribution of their product that they create, they're creators, so distribution ultimately means modernization but developers don't harp too much on money-making although they'd want to make money. They don't want to be abandoned on those three areas. They don't want to be disloyal. They want to be loyal, they want support and they want to have distribution. What does Oracle bring to the table to address those three things? >> Yeah, they're a few ways in which we're thinking of helping developers with distributions. For example, one is, developers are building applications that they exposing their APIs and they want to be able to monetize those APIs because they are exposing business process and a logic from their organization as APIs so we're giving them the ability to have portals where they can expose their APIs and monetize the APIs. The other thing is we've also got the Oracle Cloud Marketplace where developers can put their stuff on Oracle Cloud Marketplace so others can be leveraging that content and they're getting paid for that. >> How does that work? Do they plug it into the pass layer? How does the marketplace fit in if I'm a developer? >> Sure, the marketplace is a catalog, right, and you can put your stuff on the catalog. Then when you want to drag and drop something, you drop it onto Oracle PaaS or onto Oracle IaaS. So you're taking the application that you've built and then you got it to have something that-- >> John: So composing a solution on the fly of your customer? >> Well, yeah exactly, just pulling a pre-composed solution that a developer had built and being able to drop it onto the Oracle PaaS and IaaS platform. >> So the developer gets a customer and they get paid for that through the catalog? >> Yes, yes, yes and it's also better for customers, right? They're getting all sorts of capability pre-built for them, available for them, ready for them. >> So one of the things that's come up, and we've heard it, it was really amplified too much but we saw it and it got some play. In developer communities, the messaging on the containers and microservers as you mentioned earlier. Huge deal right now. They love that ability to have the containerization. We even heard containers driving down into the IaaS area, so with the network virtualization stuff going on, so how is that going to help developers? What confidence will you share to developers that you guys are backing the container standards-- >> Siddhartha: Absolutely. >> Driving that, participating in that. >> Well I think there are a couple of things. First of all, containers are not that easy in terms of when you have to orchestrate under the containers, you have to register these containers. Today the technology is for containers to be managed, the orchestration technology which is things like Swarm, Kubernetes, MISO, et cetera. They're changing very rapidly and then in order to use these technologies, you have to have a scheduler and things like that. So there's a stack of three or four, relatively recent technologies, changing at a relatively fast pace and that creates a very unstable stack for someone who create production level stuff for them, right? The docker container that they built actually run from this slightly shaky stack. >> Like Kubernetes or what not. >> Yeah yeah and so what we've done is we're saying, look, we're giving you container as a service so if you've already created docker containers, you can now bring those containers as is to the Oracle Public Cloud. You can take this application, these 20 containers and then from that point on we've taken care of putting the containers out, scaling the containers up, registering the containers, managing the containers for you, so you're just being able to use that environment as a developer. And if you want to use the PaaS, that's that IaaS. If you want to use the PaaS, then the PhP node, JavaSE capability that I told you was also containerized. You're just not exposed to docker there. Actually, I know he's got a question, but I want to just point out Juan Loaiza, who was on Monday, he pointed out the JSON aspect of the database was I thought was pretty compelling. From a developer's standpoing, JSON's very really popular with managing APIs. So having that in the database is really kind of a good thing so people should check out that interview. >> Very quickly, one of the historical norm for developers is you start with a data model and then you take various types of tools and you build code that operates against that development for that basic data model. And Oracle obviously has, that's a big part of what your business has historically been. As you move forward, as we start looking at big data and the enormous investment that businesses are making in trying to understand how to utilize that technology, it's not going as well as a lot folks might've thought it would in part because the developer community hasn't fully engaged how to generate value out of those basic stacks of technology. How is Oracle, who has obviously a leadership position in database and is now re-committing itself to some of these new big data technologies, how're you going to differentially, or do you anticipate differentially presenting that to developers so they can do more with big data-like technologies? >> They're a few things that we've done, wonderful question. First of all, just creating the Hadoop cluster, managing the Hadoop cluster, scaling out the Hadoop cluster requires a lot of effort. So we're giving you big data as a service where you don't have to worry about that underlying infrastructure. The next problem is how do you get data into the data lake, and the data has been generated at tremendous volume. You think about internet of things, you think about devices, et cetera. They're generating data at tremendous volume. We're giving you the ability to actually be able to use a streaming, Kafka, Sparc-based serviced to be able to bring data in or to use Oracle data intergration to be able to stream data in from, let's say, something happening on the Oracle database into your big data hub. So it's giving you very easy ways to get your data into the data hub and being able to do that with HDFS, with Hive, whichever target system you want to use. Then on top of that data, the next challenge is what do you visualize, right? I mean, you've got all this data together but a very small percentage is actually giving you insight. So how do you look at this and find that needle in the haystack? So for that we've given you the ability to do analytics with the BI Cloud service to get inside into the data where we're actually doing machine learning. And we're getting inside from the data and presenting those data sets to the most relevant to the most insightful by giving you some smart insights upfront and by giving you visualizations. So for example, you search for, in all these forms, what are the users says as they entered in the data. The best way to present that is by a tag cloud. So giving you visualization that makes sense, so you can do rich discovery and get rich insight from BI Cloud service and the data visualization cloud service. Lastly, if you have, let's say, five years of data on an air conditioner and the product manager's trying to get inside into that data saying, hey what should I fix so that that doesn't happen next time around. We're giving you the big data discovery cloud service where you don't have to set up that data lab, you don't have to set up the models, et cetera. You could just say replicate two billing rows, we'll replicate it in the cloud for you within our data store and you can start getting insight from it. >> So how are developers going to start using these tools 'cause it's clear that data scientists can use it, it's clear that people that have more of analytic's background can use it. How're developers going to start grabbing a lot of these capabilities, especially with machine learning and AI and some of the other things on the horizon? And how do you guys anticipate you're going to present this stuff to a developer community so that they can, again, start creating more value for the business? Is that something that's on the horizon? >> You know it's here, it's not on the horizon, it's here. We're helping developers, for example, build a microservice that wants to get data from a treadmill that one of the customers is running on, right? We're trying to get data from one of the customers on the treadmills. Well the developer now creates a microservice where the data from the treadmill has been ingested into a data lake. We've made it very easy for them to ingest into the data lake and then that microservice will be able to very easily access the data, expose only the portion of the data that's interesting. For example, the developer wants to create a very rich mobile app that presents the customer running with all the insight into the average daily calorie burn and what they're doing, et cetera. Now they can take that data, do analytics on it and very easily be able to present it in the mobile platform without having to work through all the plumbing of the data lake, of the ingestion, of the visualization, of the mobile piece, of the integration of the backend system. All of that is being provided so developers can really plug and play and have fun. >> Yeah, they want that fun. Building is the fun part, they want to have fun-- >> They want relevance, great tools and not have to worry about the infrastructure. >> John: They want distribution. They want their work to be showcased. >> Peter: That's what I mean about relevance, that's really about relevance. >> They want to work on the cool stuff and again-- >> And be relevant. >> Developers are starting to have what I call the nightclub effect. Coding is so much fun now, there's new stuff that comes out. They want to hack with the new codes. They want to play with some that fit the form factor with either a device or whatnot. >> Yeah and one other thing that we've done is, we've made the... All developers today are doing containers delivery because they need to release code really fast, right. It's no longer about months, it's about days or hours that they have to release. So we're giving a complete continuous delivery framework where people can leverage Git for their code depository, they can use Maven for continuous integration, they can use Puppet and Chef for stripping. The can manage the backlog of their task. They can do code reviews, et cetera, all done in the cloud for them. >> So lifestyles, hospitality. Taking care of developers, that's what you got to do. >> Exactly, that's a great analogy. You know all these things, they have to have these tools that they put together and what we're doing is we're saying, you don't have to worry about putting together those tools, just use them. But if you have some, you can plug in. >> Well we think, Wikibon and SiliconeANGLE, believe that there's going to be a tsunami of enterprise developers with the consumerization of IT, now meaning the Cloud, that you're going to see enterprise development, just a boom in development. You're going to see a lot more activity. Now I know it's different in development by it's not just pure Cloud need, it's some Legacy, but it's going to be a boom so we think you guys are very set up for that. Certainly with the products, so my final question for you Siddhartha is, what's your plans? I mean, sounds great. What're you going to do about it? Is there a venture happening? How're you guys going to develop this opportunity? What're you guys going to do? >> So the product sets are already there but we're evolving those products sets to a significant pace. So first of all, you can go to cloud.oracle.com/tryit and try these cloud services and build the applications on it, that's there. We've got a portal called developer.oracle.com where you can get resources on, for example, I'm a JavaScript developer. What's everything that Oracle's doing to help JavaScript developers? I'm a MySQL developer. what's everyone doing to help with that? So they've got that. Then starting at the beginning of next year, we're going to roll out a set of workshops that happen in many cities around the world where we go work with developers, hands on, and getting them inside an experience of how to build these rich, cloud-native, microservices-based applications. So those are some of the things and then our advocacy program. We already have the ACE Program, the ACE Directive Program. Working with that program to really make it a very vibrant, energetic ecosystem that is helping, building a sort of sample codes and building expert knowledge around how the Oracle environment can be used to build really cool microservices-based, cloud-native-- >> So you're investing, you're investing. >> Siddhartha: Oh absolutely. >> Any big events, you're just more little events, any big events, any developer events you guys going to do? >> So we'll be doing these workshops and we'll be sponsoring a bunch non-Oracle developer events and then we'll be launching a big developer event of our own. >> Great, so final question. What's in it for the developer? If I'm a developer, what's in it for me? Hey I love Oracle, thanks for spending the money and investing in this. What's in it for me? Why, why should I give you a look? >> Because you can do it faster with higher quality. So that microservices application that I was talking about, if you went to any other cloud and tried to build that microservices-based application that got data from the treadmill into a data lake using IoT and the analytics integration with backend applications, it would've taken you a lot longer. You can get going in the language of your choice using the database of your choice, using standards of your choice and have no lock-in. You can take your data out, you can take your code out whenever you want. So do it faster with openness. >> Siddhartha, thanks for sharing that developer update. We were talking about it yesterday. Our prayers were answered. (laughing) You came on The Cube. We were like, where is the developer action? I mean we see that JavaOne, we love Java, certainly JavaScript is awesome and a lot of good stuff going on. Thanks for sharing and congratulations on the investments and to continuing bringing developer goodness out there. >> Thank you, John. >> This The Cube, we're sharing that data with you and we're going to bring more signal from the noise here after this short break. You're watching The Cube. (electronic beat)

(upbeat music) >> Live from the Mission Bay Conference Center in San Francisco, California, it's theCUBE at Google Cloud Platform Live. Here are your hosts, John Furrier and Jeff Frick. >> Okay welcome back everyone, we are live. This is theCUBE in San Francisco, California for Google Platform Conference Live, their developer conference for the cloud. I'm John Furrier, the founder of SiliconANGLE, Jeff Frick, my cohost, and we're excited to have CUBE alumni but also man about town coming to talk about containers, Kubernetes. We have Craig McLuckie, product manager at Google. Named the product Kubernetes. Welcome back. >> Thank you. It's great to be back on theCUBE. >> As I said, you're the man about town. Containers are the hottest thing going on. Really enabling a lot of new change. A lot of solidarity in the developer community around bringing cloud together, right? You're seeing people go, wow, containers are not a new concept. Docker has brought together the concept and made a huge push, just the ball got moved down the field big time. And then Kubernetes kind of tying it all together and you guys are open sourcing it. I wanted to first talk about, from your perspective, what's changed since VMware where we had a great conversation around Kubernetes? Obviously that was front and center in VMware's show, which is a huge IT enterprise vote of confidence. So now, here at Google, core developers. Large scale, backend network interconnect stuff going on. You almost connect the dots, right? Native developers really cranking out the apps? Large scale interconnect? There's a lot in the middle there between those bookends. What's changed? >> So a couple things I think have changed since I last spoke to theCUBE at VMworld. The first is we've seen an amazing amount of velocity around the Kubernetes community. Not just what Google's been doing but also what our open source community members have been contributing. And we're seeing a very fast acceleration of the overall platform. Moving quickly towards operation maturity, you know getting closer to production readiness and introducing a lot of features that are really need to both run real world applications and to go to new place, to go to a variety of new clouds. We're seeing the reality of a very highly portable and maturing way to build container based applications emerging. That's been very exciting. I think the other thing that's really interesting here is the way that we at Google have been introducing Kubernetes directly into the Google Cloud platform. Today we announced a new product called Google Container Engine which provides the quickest and easiest way to get a Kubernetes cluster up and running and managed for you on Google Cloud platform. And we're very excited about how easy it's making it for our customers to access this new way of building applications. >> Talk about this Container Engine because obviously App Engine's had huge success. Little bit of learning curve but you guys have some core front end developers that you're making that easier now but what is a Container Engine? Is it a Docker engine? Is it Docker compatible? Is it a whole new animal? What it is? What is it? >> That's great, I'm glad you asked that question. I would start by saying this, at Google we have Google Compute Engine which offers powerful, flexible, fast breeding VMs and at the other end of the spectrum we've had App Engine which offers a highly managed, very efficient way to get web applications up and running. And what we've encountered with our customers is that there is no natural way to move from one world to the other world. There's no connective tissue that exists in the middle that let's our customers think about building applications that are running on a cloud computer rather than just running on a virtual machine. And so what Google Container Engine is is a technology that let's our customers program at the cluster level. So Docker has provided this amazingly productive way to package up an application and deploy it into a node. Docker has done a great job of taking a lot of technologies that existed and making them incredibly accessible to developers. But the reality, in our experience, is that at least 80% of our customer's cost of maintaining applications comes out of the operation space so Kubernetes and Google Container Engine are an operationally viable way to build these distributed applications. It really moves our customers from thinking about deploying things into individual virtual machines to instead saying, hey, I'm just going to drop this into this cluster and it will all be wired together so I can take these little Lego building blocks I've got called containers, piece them together in ways that are intuitive and then have a very smart and effective system to run those for me on my behalf.. >> So basically a pool of VMs could be available to developer, if I get this right? So you're saying, I'm a developer, I don't have to worry about the dependencies by VMware, by VMware versus another form factor? I just let the container deal with that? Is that-- >> What we've done, yes, that's exactly right, we've created this strong separation between infrastructure operations and application operations. Docker has created a portable framework to take basically a binary and run it anywhere which is an amazing capability. But that's not enough. You also need to be able to manage that with a framework that can run anywhere so the union of Docker and Kubernetes provides this framework where you're completely abstracted from the underlying infrastructure. You could use VMware, you could use Red Hat Open Stack deployment, you could run on another major cloud provider like Rack Space or IBM and you could just build this application and deploy it there and experience this very powerful cluster first way of building and managing that app. >> Cluster first, I haven't heard that one. >> It's not a cluster you-know-what, it's a cluster first. (laughing) That trumps cloud first from Microsoft but let's go back to Kubernetes. You named the product, what does it mean? I mean it's kind of a, you don't look at a tech name, you say, it's not like alpha one, ya know? >> Kubernetes is the Greek word for the helmsman of a ship. I was looking to find a name and turns out, there's a lot of cluster management technologies and a lot of the obvious names were taken and so I had the inspiration of what is this doing? It's actually the thing that's overseeing the whole of your operation, and is planning what goes where and managing it. So Kubernetes is the helmsman of your cluster group, it's the thing that manages it. >> Did you design the algorithm to stay away from icebergs? (laughing) That's the key thing, you don't want to crash the system. But that's the challenge, you know, just joking aside, orchestration is really a hard thing. That's been a cloud phenomenon, automation. Everyone's been talking about, oh we have management software that automates and orchestrates cloud resources. But now in a cloud environment, it's more challenging now. Talk about what Kubernetes does different than older approaches to orchestration. >> I think is a very, very important consideration. When I look at the way that orchestration's been done traditionally, you tend to think about your application as being deeply tied to the underlying piece of infrastructure, so your orchestration process is provision me a basic machine, go get the packages I need, deploy my application pieces, wire it in explicitly to all the other pieces of my system and so you have to kind of build this relatively fragile system where all the piece are tied together and deeply coupled. What Kubernetes has done is provide a framework where you have a very principled, almost Lego building block that you can stick together and say, I want one of these things, I want it replicated six times, and I want it wired in to these other pieces without actually having to know about where those other pieces are deployed, how they relate to one another. It really is realizing this highly decoupled, very principled way of thinking about your environment as a cluster where you just drop your packages in and they're all wired together using virtualized networking and using this cluster centric paradigm and it radically, radically reduces the cost of operations. I could just give you an example of that. In the old days of Google, before we had these technologies inside the house, it was all we could do to keep the lights on. Like every day was an adventure, it was very hard, because our operations had our application pieces deeply tied into the physical infrastructure. When we introduced the system internally known as Borg, we changed the game. In less than a year-- >> Hold on, name is Borg? >> What was it called? >> Borg? >> Borg. >> Borg. >> Internally known as Borg. (laughing) >> Like connected to everything, like the Microsoft Borg, that's at Microsoft but Microsoft used to be called-- >> I was thinking more Arnold Schwarzenegger, but that's alright. >> Continue. I just wanted to make sure we heard that right. >> We literally doubled the number of production services we were running within a year. It's just so much easier to run things at scale. >> So provisioning, managing, it just makes a smoother operation? Smooth sailing if you will? >> It's really trying to hide provision, managing, right? You're basically, I have an app and I want to build it easily and then I want to deploy it easily and then I want it to be able to scale easily. >> Yes. >> Without having to go back and reconnect it to more stuff. It's funny because I think most people think that that's what clouds have already always done, right? There's basically compute, a networking and storage that's just in small units, virtually available to assemble however I want. But you say it, I used to have to still assemble it and disassemble it, now it's just-- >> Exactly. >> It's just plugging in. >> That's the challenge. The way we've seen cloud evolving has disappointed us a little bit because it really is just a re manifestation of the same existing first generation way of thinking about application development, application provisioning. If you challenge a lot of the fundamental assumptions, if you really step back and think about is there a better way to do this? If I have all this incredibly fungible resource that can turn up and turn down, is there a better way to build applications? Kubernetes is our invitation to the community to participate in defining that thing. We think it is a better way to build applications. We know it because we've been doing this for 10 years and it works really well for us. >> So talk about the open source angle because one, Kubernetes is open source, we've reported that live when we last chatted. Docker has huge success with their open source model. That's not well known in the main world, how the nuance and developers really are engaged and motivated to play with Docker which has it's own flywheel effect which is very viral in network effect. What's your strategy with Kubernetes? Is it standard open source blocking and tackling? Is there things you're doing to prime the pump? Is there a magical formula you guys are really nurturing and fostering? >> I am very happy with the way that the projects been run and it's been humbling to see the amount of adoption success we've had. I think that this manner of operating where we built Kubernetes as an open source project with the community, and then we take it and take exactly that and we turn it into a service and add a lot high value capabilities to it, is a pattern that's working very well for us. It's massively increased our velocity because it's not just us that are actually developing the project, we have amazing contributions from people like Red Hat. They're putting a lot of time and effort into making this thing great. Our friends at CoreOS are putting a lot of effort into it. We're able to do more because it's just more people working on it, so the velocity is far higher. The second thing is that we were able to go straight to an open offer. Normally we do these early adopter programs hidden behind the curtain, try to figure stuff out and do a lot of iteration. We didn't have to do that because the community has built the API with us, our customers have been working directly with us to shape the API. We know it's going to work for them. >> And that's helped you guys, so your differentiation doesn't really conflict with the community? >> Absolutely not. We recognized as we moved from a cloud that's worked mostly in the start up community and with internet facing companies to a cloud that's really engaging mainstream business. Our customers want multi cloud. It's critical to them. They want to be able to run in hybrid cloud. They want to have multi cloud provider relationships. They don't want to just rely on one provider and so our framework that works well everywhere but works especially well on Google, serves our business very well. >> Getting some great prompts on Crowd Chat so thanks for coming on theCUBE, always great to chat with you. You're in a hot area, we'd love to pick your brain but I want you to address three things I'm going to say to you, get your thoughts on. >> Okay. >> It can be your Google perspective, could be your own geeky perspective. Perimeter-less IT, multi cloud and mobile infrastructure. Three of the hottest areas on the planet right now in terms of people looking at investments, retooling, trying to figure things out, perimeter-less IT. Obviously perimeter IT, perimeter based security? >> Sure. >> Kind of goes away with the cloud right? >> Yeah. >> But you still need security, it's perimeter-less, so what does that mean? How do people understand and grasp that concept? >> I'm not sure I'm the right person to speak to perimeter less IT but I can say that-- >> Just in general. >> When I think about it, I think there's a couple of things that are happening here that are really interesting. When I look at the idea of perimeter-less IT, when I look at the idea of what I consider the democratization of IT, if you will, we've lived in a world where most businesses have been beholden to a specific organization that's controlled their provisioning, the policies and the set of bits they can use, everything's been controlled and IT hasn't been well loved by and large. We're moving into a world where it's a much more open ecosystem. Departments are far more empowered, anyone with a corporate credit card can go and get a machine and that's creating amazing agility and velocity for businesses. But it's introducing-- >> Creativity, too. >> A lot of creativity, but it's introducing a lot of pain as well. The hard thing is going to be creating a smart framework that allows empowered decentralization. Going from this world of highly controlled to decentralized empowerment, and I think that's where we're going to see a lot of interest from folks that are operating in the airplay space. >> Okay, multi cloud, just in general. Will people move to multiple clouds? Do you see that? UberClouds, we had Bitnami in earlier like, ah, people aren't really going to multiple clouds. They're not interested in moving workloads. Is that a state of the current situation or will it evolve to workloads anywhere? >> Multi cloud is the reality of our world. There's no serious customer I've spoken to in the last six months that has not been interested in a multi cloud relationship. Sorry, that's not true, there's no enterprise customer I've spoken to the last six months. >> That has not been interested? >> That has not been interested in multi cloud. >> And the reason is? >> In some ways. >> It's for what, resources? >> There's a couple of reasons. One is a lot of companies want to have just a multi provider relationship. They don't want to be beholden to a single cloud provider and frankly almost every customer I speak to has a massive investment in on premise infrastructure. They want to move away from a lot of the pain associated with managing that, but it's not going to happen overnight. Hybrid cloud is going to exist for quite a while. >> This is back to your empowered decentralization theme. >> And we have to provide them the tools to do that. We have to create positive pressure that moves them from those clouds to the public cloud. >> Final concept, and I've heard this a lot, kind of leads into the keynote, not necessarily the words but almost reeking of this concept of mobile infrastructure. I mean, mobile first, cluster first, kind of enables mobile first but mobile is obviously a form factor, whether it's an internet of things as a human or a device, doesn't matter it's still an endpoint the network. >> Yeah. >> It's a multitude of millions of devices so what is mobile infrastructure? Is it different? Is it the same? What's your take on it? >> It's an interesting question and the reality of our world is it's a mobile world. It's almost folly to do anything but think about mobile as the primary vehicle for customers, consumers and everyone else to interface with the internet, with the web. It certainly introduces an interesting set of challenges to application developers. I think one of the things that I am most sort of interested in cracking from a cloud provider's perspective is the world of multiple devices where you have a large set of devices in different form factors that are ultimately presenting a view of the same set of data, the same set of information and creating a set of experiences that work well in that multi device space. Moving away from a world where state is bound to a device to a world where state is based in your cloud and your device is simply providing a view or a way to interface with that data. We still have a way to go before that is fully materialized but I think that's going to be a big sort of anchor point of a lot of mobile development in the space. >> So Craig, where's the locus of competition move then? If the data center just becomes a resource that's on tap, basically, that I can just get? How do the cloud providers then differentiate? >> Basic infrastructure is relatively undifferentiated but when I look at the way that we run inside Google, we do some really, really scary smart things to make your application run for you. If you think about the way we run our infrastructure it's almost like the flight controller of a modern airplane. It's going from the old wire based control system where you move something to move a flap to a world where you have this controller that's taking in million of signals a second and making incredibly informed decisions that is optimizing the heck out of everything you do and making very fine grain corrections and I think that's going to be a huge avenue of differentiation. When you take an application, you package it and you give it to us and you trust us to run it for you and it's running at a slightly higher level, we have a much high extraction level, we can do incredibly smart things with things like machine learning technologies. We can watch how your application's running. We know how it ran last time so we can tell if something's going wrong because we have the ability to actually watch it. This is how we run internally. >> Right, right. >> It's not just about the infrastructure. It's going to be about smart systems that run your application for you. And that's going to be hard to-- >> It's really to abstract above the management of the application. It's actually the management of the application and the optimization of the application as opposed to the infrastructure? >> There's so much more value in moving from static, dumb infrastructure to actively managed, sort of precision managed container based capabilities. It's quite jarring. This was clear to me very soon after we shipped Google Compute Engine. I was able to see, we never looked inside VM so we were able to see what level of CP utilization our customer's were getting and we compared that to what we were able to run in our internal web loads and our customers are only getting like, there were several integer multiples less utilization than what they were paying for. So we knew that something could be done. We could actually move up the abstraction layer and just do a better job by actively managing and making smart decisions. And that would be very disruptive-- >> So let's play a game, we played a game with our last guest, we'll play the game of you and I are going to go into business together and be venture capitalist. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Sounds like fun. >> What's our investment thesis? Knowing what we know, I mean, there's a lot of entrepreneurs out there really looking at the enterprise right now. The enterprise is hard, cloud is kind of like a proxy for the enterprise but it's not like your classic enterprise. I'm a tech entrepreneur, I'm a coder, I'm an architect, I'm an OS guy, systems guy, could be a creative filmmaker, whatever but I want to come in and get some white space. Is there white space out there that you see that is an opportunity for developers that could really come in and stake claim and build a really good business? It could be lifestyle business, it could be a home run. Where would we invest? >> Yeah, I think there's so much white space in this domain. We are in the very early days of getting these technologies to market. Obviously there's just bolstering the basic, sort of the fundamentals of the platform. Overlay networking, everyone's talking SDN. Obviously there's a lot of hype around that but being able to create an abstraction that allows high levels of plugability for different network fabrics as you move between clouds is interesting. Storage, and doing a better job of providing virtualized storage that is available to these containers is an area of opportunity. There's a lot of work to be done in the tuning environment, full on application lifecycle management, continuous integration, lots of opportunity in that space. And then frankly, as we start looking at taking these technologies to market and deploying them into real businesses that are running multi cloud, there's going to be a lot of the governance, risk management and compliance overlay capabilities that just don't exist. We have the ability to define policy and enforce it in a very effective way, whether it's security policy, data loss prevention policy-- >> But it has to be dynamic, right? >> And it has to by dynamically done and it has to be enforced at the node. >> That's software, that's hard software? >> And there's so much work to be done there. There's so many opportunities to either create niche, vertically oriented capabilities of service specific protocol or unique, highly valuable, cross coding capabilities. I'm very excited about the future in this space. >> Where would we get started if I was an entrepreneur? Like, hey Craig, I saw your interview, where do I get started? Writing an app engine code? I want to put the boat in the water and starting drifting into this area you just mentioned, how should I navigate in? How should I vector in? >> A lot of it depends on where you're going to be operating in the stack. I would suggest you go and learn Go. Go is rapidly, GoLang, if you want to talk about the sort of the development environment is rapidly emerging as the language for the new cloud. We're seeing a lot of work in the Go community. Docker is written in Go, Kubernetes is written in Go. So I'd start there. It's a great platform for systems development. So I'd start looking at some of the existing technologies, Docker, Kubernetes, start just assessing where the gaps are. I'd probably approach it from a systems development perspective if I was doing it but there's also going to be a lot of value higher up the chain where you can actually-- >> You can dance on top of the stack and around the stack? >> Absolutely. >> Alright so final question, are we going back to the old OS days? I know you were joking before we came on, conversational even in a way, that was pretty relevant. I mean, we're seeing concepts of systems programming of the 80's kind of, but in decentralized way. Comment on that because I think that's tying a lot of things together. >> I think that's an incredibly astute observation and I think we're moving away from a world, operating system today is a node local thing, right? So I have an operating system and it's providing an environment that abstracts me from the physical details of one piece of hardware, one machine, you know one set of resources. What we're starting to see now is the emergence of some of these distributed concepts where you're programming not to a specific singe piece of infrastructure, single piece of hardware but you're programming to a cluster and so I think it's very much like that. I think that's a very astute observation and we're going to see the buzz-- >> But no one vendor owns it. It's owned by the world. >> And nor should one. It needs to be a POSIX like ubiquitous framework that let's us get more out of these cluster centric applications. >> Very organic, I mean I love what's happening is a very organic development but yet there's some, kind of group dynamics going on around cluster and Docker's a great example. Came out of the woodwork to become a defacto standard. Probably the fastest defacto standard that I've ever seen-- >> It's been breathtaking how quickly that technology's taken hold. >> And that's just the crowd. >> Yeah. >> Just saying, hey if we don't like decide on something? We like these guys the best, they didn't piss anyone off or whatever, whatever the dynamic is. It could be double source, flywheel, but-- >> It's interesting, certainly from Google's perspective, we've noticed Docker a lot sooner than most the world did. We had technologies that we could have stood up as potentially competing capabilities but we chose not to, because the world is incredibly well served by a single standard for defining and packaging applications. Now we need to continue that and we need to build the standard for the POSIX like distributed systems standard, that people think about coding to when they're building these modern, next gen cloud V2 applications. >> Craig, I really appreciate you spending the time. Love the conversation, love kind of the long winding road we took there. We knocked out some Kubernetes. We talked about Docker containers. Talked about the future of the industry. Really appreciate it, you're awesome to have on theCUBE here, you're invited any time. CUBE alumni Craig McLuckie right on theCUBE. We'll be right back, here, live in San Francisco broadcasting exclusively from Google's developer conference here, the Cloud Platform Live Event from Google. We'll be right back after this short break. (light music)

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: TheCUBE presents Ignite '22 brought to you by Palo Alto Networks. >> Welcome back to Las Vegas guys and girls. Lisa Martin here with Dave Vellante. This is day one of the cube's two day coverage of Palo Alto Networks Ignite at the MGM Grand. Dave, we've been having some great conversations today, we have a great two day lineup execs from Palo Alto, it's partner network, customers, et cetera. Going to be talking about infrastructure as code. We talk about that a lot, how Palo is partnering with its partner ecosystem to really help customers deliver security across the organization. >> We do a predictions post every year. Hopefully you can hear me. So we do this predictions post every year. I've done it for a number of years, and I want to say it was either 2018 or 2019, we predicted that HashiCorp was one of these companies to watch. And then last August, on August 9th, we had supercloud event in Palo Alto. We had David McJannet in, who is the CEO of HashiCorp. And we really see Hashi as a key player in terms of affecting multicloud consistency. Sometimes we call it supercloud, you building on top of the hyperscale cloud. So super excited to have HashiCorp on. >> Really an important conversation. We've got an alumni back with us. Asvin Ramesh is here the senior director of Alliances at HashiCorp. Welcome back. >> Yeah, thank you. Good to be back. >> Great to have you. Talk to us a little bit about what's going on at HashiCorp, your relationship with Palo Alto Networks, and what's in it for customers. >> Yeah, no, no, great question. So, Palo Alto has been a fantastic partner of ours for many years now. We started way back in 2018, 2019 focusing on the basics, putting integrations in place that customers can be using together. And so it's been a great journey. Both are very synergistic. Palo Alto is focused on multicloud, so are we, we focus on cloud infrastructure automation, and ensuring that customers are able to bring in agility, reliability, security, and be able to deliver to their business. And then Palo Alto brings in great security components to that multicloud story. So it's a great story altogether. >> Some of the challenges that organizations have been facing. Palo Alto just released a survey, I think this morning if I can find it here what's next in cyber organizations facing massive headwinds ransomware becoming a household word, business email compromise being a challenge. But also in the last couple of years the massive shift to multi-club or organizations are living an operating need to do so securely. It's no longer nice to have anymore. It's absolutely table stakes for survival, and being able to thrive and grow for any business. >> Yeah, no, I think it's almost a sort of rethinking of how you would build your infrastructure up. So the more times you do it right the better you are built to scale. That's been one of the bedrocks of how we've been working with Palo Alto, which is rethinking how should IT be building their infrastructure in a multicloud world. And I think the market timing is right for both of us in terms of the progress that we've been able to make. >> So, I mean Terraform has really become sort of a key ingredient to the cloud operating model, especially across clouds. Kind of describe how partners, and customers are are implementing that cross-cloud capability. What's that journey look like? What's the level of maturity today? >> Yeah, great question, Dave. So we sort of see customers in three buckets. The first bucket is when customers are in the initial phases of their cloud journey. So they have disparate teams in their business units try out clouds themselves. Typically there is some event that occurs either some sort of a security scare or a a cloud cost event that triggers a rethinking of how they should be thinking about this in a scalable way. So that leads to where the cloud operating model which is a framework that HashiCorp has. And we use that successfully with customers to talk them through how they should be thinking about their process, about how they should be standardizing how people operate, and then the products they should be including, but then you come to that stage, and you start to think about a centralized platform team that is putting in golden workflows, that is putting in as a service mindset for their business units thinking through policies at a corporate level. And then that is a second stage. And then, but this is also in some customers more around public clouds. But then the third stage that we see is when they start embracing their private cloud or the on-prem data center, and have the same principles address across both public clouds, and the on-prem data center, and then Terraform scale for any infrastructure. So, once you start to put these practices in place not just from a technology standpoint, but from a process, and product standpoint, you're easily able to scale with that central platform organization. >> So, it's all about that consistency across your estate irrespective of whether it's on-prem in AWS, Azure, Google, the Edge, maybe. I mean, that's starting, right? >> Asvin: Yes. >> And so when you talk about the... Break it down a little bit process and product, where do you and Palo Alto sort of partner and add value? What's that experience like? >> Yeah, so, I think as I mentioned earlier the bedrock is having ways in which customers are able to use our products together, right? And then being able to evangelize the usage of that product. So one example I'll give you is with Prisma Cloud, and Terraform Cloud to your point about Terraform earlier. So customers can be using Prisma Cloud with Terraform Cloud in a way that you can get security context telemetry during an infrastructure run, and then use policies that you have in Prisma Cloud to be able to get or run or to implement or run or make sure essentially it is adhering to your security policy or any other audits that you want to create or any other cost that you want to be able to control. >> Where are your customer conversations these days? We know that security is a board level conversation. Interestingly, in that same survey that Palo Alto released this morning that I mentioned they found that there's a big lack of alignment between the board and the C-suite staff, the executive suite in terms of security. Where are your conversations, and how are you maybe facilitating that alignment that needs to be there? Because security it's not a nice to have. >> Yeah, I think in our experience, the alignment is there. I think especially with the macro environment it's more about where where do you allocate those resources. I think those are conversations that we're just starting to see happen, but I think it's the natural progression of how the environment is moving, and maybe another quarter or two, I think we'll see greater alignment there. >> So, and I saw some data that said I guess it was a study you guys did 90% of customer say multicloud is working for them. That surprised me 'cause you hear all this negativity around multicloud, I've been kind of negative about multicloud to be honest. Like that's a symptom of MNA, and a or multi-vendor. But how do you interpret that? When they say multicloud is working? How so? >> Yeah, I think the maturity of customers are varied as I mentioned through the stages, right? So, there are customers who even in the initial phases of their journey where they have different business units using different clouds, and from a C standpoint that might still look like multicloud, right? Though the way we think about it is you should be really in stage two, and stage three to real leverage the real power of multicloud. But I think it's that initial hump that you need to go through, and being able to get oriented towards it, have the right set of skillsets, the thought process, the product, the process in place. And once you have that then you'll start reaping the benefits over a period of time, especially when some other environments events happen, and you're able to easily adjust to that because you're leveraging this multicloud environment, and you have a clear policy of where you'll use which cloud. >> So I interpreted that data as, okay, multicloud is working from the standpoint of we are multicloud, okay? So, and our business is working, but when I talk to customers, they want more to your point, they want that consistent experience. And so it's been by, to use somebody else's term, by default. Chuck Whitten I think came up with that term versus by design. And now I think they have an objective of, okay, let's make multicloud work even better. Maybe I can say that. And so what does that experience look like? That means a common experience all the way through my stack, my infrastructure stack, which is that's going to be interesting to see how that goes down 'cause you got three separate clouds, and are doing their own APIs. But certainly from a security standpoint, the PaaS layer, even as I go up the stack, how do you see that outcome, and say the next two to five years? >> Yeah, so, we go back to our customers, and they're very successful ones who've used the cloud operating model. And for us the cloud operating model for us includes four layers. So on the infrastructure layer, we have Terraform and Packer, on the security layer we have Vault and Boundary, on the networking layer we have Consul, and then on applications we have Nomad and Waypoint. But then you really look at, from a people process, and product standpoint, for people it's how do you standardize the workflows that they're able to use, right? So if you have a central platform team in place that is looking at common use cases that multiple business units are using. and then creates a golden workflow, for example, right? For these various business units to be able to use or creates what we call a system of record for cloud adoption it helps multiple business units then latch onto this work that this central platform team is doing. And they need to have a product mindset, right? So not like a project that you just start and end with. You have this continuous improvement mindset within that platform team. And they build these processes, they build these golden workflows, they build these policies in place, and then they offer that as a service to the business units to be able to use. So that increases the adoption of multicloud. And also more importantly, you can then allow that multicloud usage to be governed in the way that aligns with your overall corporate objectives. And obviously in self-interest, you'd use Terraform or Vault because you can then use it across multiple clouds. >> Well, let's say I buy into that. Okay, great. So I want that common experience 'cause so when you talk about infrastructure, take us through an example. So when I hear infrastructure, I say, okay if I'm using an S3 bucket over here an Azure blob over there, they got different APIs, they got different primitives. I want you to abstract that away. Is that what you do? >> Yeah, so I think we've seen different use cases being used across different clouds too. So I don't think it's sort of as simple as, hey, should I use this or that? It is ensuring that the common tool that you use to be able to leverage safer provisioning, right? Is Terraform. So the central team is then trained in not only just usage of Terraform open source, but their Terraform cloud, which is our managed service, and Terraform enterprise which is the self-managed, but on-prem product, it's them being qualified to be able to build these consistent workflows using whatever tool that they have or whatever skew that they have from Terraform. And then applying business logic on top of that to your point about, hey, we'd like to use AWS for these kind of workloads. We'd like to use GCP, for example, on data or use Microsoft Azure for some other type of- >> Collaboration >> Right? But the common tooling, right? Remains around the usage of Terraform, and they've trained their teams there's a standard workflow, there's standard process around it. >> Asvin, I was looking at that survey the HashiCorp state of cloud strategy survey, and it talked about skill shortages as being the number one barrier to multicloud. We talk about the cyber skills gap all the time. It's huge. It's obviously a huge issue. I saw some numbers just the other day that there's 26 million developers but there's less than 3 million cybersecurity professionals. How does HashiCorp and Palo Alto Networks, how do you help customers address that skills gap so that they that they can leverage multicloud as a driver of the business? >> Yeah, another great question. So I think I'd say in two or three different ways. One is be able to provide greater documentation for our customers to be able to self use the product so that with the existing people, for example, you build out a known example, right? You're trying to achieve this goal here is how you use our products together. And so they'll be able to self-service, right? So that's one. Second is obviously both of us have great services partners, so we are always working with these services partners to get their teams trained and scaled up around these skill gaps. And I think I'd say the third which is where we see a lot of adoption is around usage of the managed services that we have. If you take Palo Alto's example in this Palo Alto will speak better to it, but they have SOC services, right? That you can consume. So, they're performing that service for you. Similarly, on our side we have a HashiCorp Cloud Platform, HCP, where you can consume Vault as a service, you can consume Consul as a service. Terraform cloud is a managed service, so you don't need as many people to be able to run that service. And we abstract all the complexity associated with that by ourselves, right? So I'd say these are the three ways that we address it. >> So Zero Trust across big buzzword. We heard this in this morning keynotes, AWS is always saying, well, we'll talk about it too, but, okay, customers are starting to talk about Zero Trust. You talk to CISOs, they're like, yes, we're adopting this mentality of unless you're trusted, we don't trust you. So, okay, cool. So you think about the cloud you've got the shared responsibility model, and then you've got the application developers are being asked to do more, secure the code. You got the CISO now has to deal with not only the shared responsibility model, but shared responsibility models across clouds, and got to bring his or her security ethos to the app dev team, and then you got to audit kind of making sure they're like the last line of defense. So my question is when you think about code security and Zero Trust in that new environment the problem with a lot of the clouds is they don't make the CISOs life any easier. So I got to believe that your objective with Palo Alto is to actually make the organization's lives easier. So, how do you deal with all that complexity in specifically in a Zero Trust multicloud environment? >> Yeah, so I'll give you a specific example. So, on code to cloud security which is one of Palo Alto's sort of key focus area is that Prisma Cloud and Terraform Cloud example that I gave, right? Where you'd be able to use what we call run tasks essentially, web hook integrations to be able to get a run or provide some telemetry back to Prisma Cloud for customers to be able to make a decision. On the Zero Trust side, we partner both on the Prisma Cloud side, and the Cortex XSOAR side around our products of Vault and and Consul. So what Vault does is it allows you to control secrets, it allows you to store secrets. So a Prisma Cloud or a Cortex customer can be using secrets from Vault familiarly for that particular transaction or workflow itself, right? Rather than, and so it's based on identity, and not on the basis of just the secret sort of lying around. Same thing with console helps you with discovery, and management of services. So, Cortex and you can automate, a lot of this work can get automated using the product that I talked about from Zero Trust. I think the key thing for Zero Trust in our view is it is a end destination, right? So it'll take certain time, depends on the enterprise, depends on where things are. It's a question of specifically focusing on value that Palo Alto and HashiCorp's products bring to solve specific use cases within that Zero Trust bucket, and solve one problem at a time rather than try to say that, hey, only Palo Alto, and only HashiCorp or whatever will solve everything in Zero Trust, right? Because that is not going to be- >> And to your point, it's never going to end, right? I mean you're talk about Cortex bringing a lot of automation. You guys bring a lot of automation now Palo Alto just bought Cider Security. Now we're getting into supply chain. I mean it going to hit it at the edge and IoT, the people don't want another IoT stove pipe. >> Lisa: No. >> Right? They want that to be part of the whole picture. So, you're never done. >> Yeah, no, but it is this continuous journey, right? And again, different companies are different parts of that journey, and then you go and rinse and repeat, you maybe acquire another company, and then they have a different maturity, so you get them on board on this. And so we see this as a multi-generational shift as Dave like to call it. And we're happy to be in the middle of it with Palo Alto Networks. >> It's definitely a multi-generational shift. Asvin, it's been great having you back on theCUBE. Thank you for giving us the update on what Hashi and Palo Alto are doing, the value in it for customers, the cloud operating model. And we should mention that HashiCorp yesterday just won a Technology Partner of the Year award. Congratulations. Yes. >> We're very, very thrilled with the recognition from Palo Alto Networks for the Technology Partner of the Year. >> Congrats. >> Thank you Keep up the great partnership. Thank you so much. We appreciate your insights. >> Thank you so much. >> For our guest, and for Dave Vellante, I'm Lisa Martin, live in Las Vegas. You watching theCUBE, the leader in live enterprise and emerging tech coverage. (upbeat music)

>> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto and Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR, this is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vellante. >> This past week we saw two of the Big 3 cloud providers present the latest update on their respective cloud visions, their business progress, their announcements and innovations. The content at these events had many overlapping themes, including modern cloud infrastructure at global scale, applying advanced machine intelligence, AKA AI, end-to-end data platforms, collaboration software. They talked a lot about the future of work automation. And they gave us a little taste, each company of the Metaverse Web 3.0 and much more. Despite these striking similarities, the differences between these two cloud platforms and that of AWS remains significant. With Microsoft leveraging its massive application software footprint to dominate virtually all markets and Google doing everything in its power to keep up with the frenetic pace of today's cloud innovation, which was set into motion a decade and a half ago by AWS. Hello and welcome to this week's Wikibon CUBE Insights, powered by ETR. In this Breaking Analysis, we unpack the immense amount of content presented by the CEOs of Microsoft and Google Cloud at Microsoft Ignite and Google Cloud Next. We'll also quantify with ETR survey data the relative position of these two cloud giants in four key sectors: cloud IaaS, BI analytics, data platforms and collaboration software. Now one thing was clear this past week, hybrid events are the thing. Google Cloud Next took place live over a 24-hour period in six cities around the world, with the main gathering in New York City. Microsoft Ignite, which normally is attended by 30,000 people, had a smaller event in Seattle, in person with a virtual audience around the world. AWS re:Invent, of course, is much different. Yes, there's a virtual component at re:Invent, but it's all about a big live audience gathering the week after Thanksgiving, in the first week of December in Las Vegas. Regardless, Satya Nadella keynote address was prerecorded. It was highly produced and substantive. It was visionary, energetic with a strong message that Azure was a platform to allow customers to build their digital businesses. Doing more with less, which was a key theme of his. Nadella covered a lot of ground, starting with infrastructure from the compute, highlighting a collaboration with Arm-based, Ampere processors. New block storage, 60 regions, 175,000 miles of fiber cables around the world. He presented a meaningful multi-cloud message with Azure Arc to support on-prem and edge workloads, as well as of course the public cloud. And talked about confidential computing at the infrastructure level, a theme we hear from all cloud vendors. He then went deeper into the end-to-end data platform that Microsoft is building from the core data stores to analytics, to governance and the myriad tooling Microsoft offers. AI was next with a big focus on automation, AI, training models. He showed demos of machines coding and fixing code and machines automatically creating designs for creative workers and how Power Automate, Microsoft's RPA tooling, would combine with Microsoft Syntex to understand documents and provide standard ways for organizations to communicate with those documents. There was of course a big focus on Azure as developer cloud platform with GitHub Copilot as a linchpin using AI to assist coders in low-code and no-code innovations that are coming down the pipe. And another giant theme was a workforce transformation and how Microsoft is using its heritage and collaboration and productivity software to move beyond what Nadella called productivity paranoia, i.e., are remote workers doing their jobs? In a world where collaboration is built into intelligent workflows, and he even showed a glimpse of the future with AI-powered avatars and partnerships with Meta and Cisco with Teams of all firms. And finally, security with a bevy of tools from identity, endpoint, governance, et cetera, stressing a suite of tools from a single provider, i.e., Microsoft. So a couple points here. One, Microsoft is following in the footsteps of AWS with silicon advancements and didn't really emphasize that trend much except for the Ampere announcement. But it's building out cloud infrastructure at a massive scale, there is no debate about that. Its plan on data is to try and provide a somewhat more abstracted and simplified solutions, which differs a little bit from AWS's approach of the right database tool, for example, for the right job. Microsoft's automation play appears to provide simple individual productivity tools, kind of a ground up approach and make it really easy for users to drive these bottoms up initiatives. We heard from UiPath that forward five last month, a little bit of a different approach of horizontal automation, end-to-end across platforms. So quite a different play there. Microsoft's angle on workforce transformation is visionary and will continue to solidify in our view its dominant position with Teams and Microsoft 365, and it will drive cloud infrastructure consumption by default. On security as well as a cloud player, it has to have world-class security, and Azure does. There's not a lot of debate about that, but the knock on Microsoft is Patch Tuesday becomes Hack Wednesday because Microsoft releases so many patches, it's got so much Swiss cheese in its legacy estate and patching frequently, it becomes a roadmap and a trigger for hackers. Hey, patch Tuesday, these are all the exploits that you can go after so you can act before the patches are implemented. And so it's really become a problem for users. As well Microsoft is competing with many of the best-of-breed platforms like CrowdStrike and Okta, which have market momentum and appear to be more attractive horizontal plays for customers outside of just the Microsoft cloud. But again, it's Microsoft. They make it easy and very inexpensive to adopt. Now, despite the outstanding presentation by Satya Nadella, there are a couple of statements that should raise eyebrows. Here are two of them. First, as he said, Azure is the only cloud that supports all organizations and all workloads from enterprises to startups, to highly regulated industries. I had a conversation with Sarbjeet Johal about this, to make sure I wasn't just missing something and we were both surprised, somewhat, by this claim. I mean most certainly AWS supports more certifications for example, and we would think it has a reasonable case to dispute that claim. And the other statement, Nadella made, Azure is the only cloud provider enabling highly regulated industries to bring their most sensitive applications to the cloud. Now, reasonable people can debate whether AWS is there yet, but very clearly Oracle and IBM would have something to say about that statement. Now maybe it's not just, would say, "Oh, they're not real clouds, you know, they're just going to hosting in the cloud if you will." But still, when it comes to mission-critical applications, you would think Oracle is really the the leader there. Oh, and Satya also mentioned the claim that the Edge browser, the Microsoft Edge browser, no questions asked, he said, is the best browser for business. And we could see some people having some questions about that. Like isn't Edge based on Chrome? Anyway, so we just had to question these statements and challenge Microsoft to defend them because to us it's a little bit of BS and makes one wonder what else in such as awesome keynote and it was awesome, it was hyperbole. Okay, moving on to Google Cloud Next. The keynote started with Sundar Pichai doing a virtual session, he was remote, stressing the importance of Google Cloud. He mentioned that Google Cloud from its Q2 earnings was on a $25-billion annual run rate. What he didn't mention is that it's also on a 3.6 billion annual operating loss run rate based on its first half performance. Just saying. And we'll dig into that issue a little bit more later in this episode. He also stressed that the investments that Google has made to support its core business and search, like its global network of 22 subsea cables to support things like, YouTube video, great performance obviously that we all rely on, those innovations there. Innovations in BigQuery to support its search business and its threat analysis that it's always had and its AI, it's always been an AI-first company, he's stressed, that they're all leveraged by the Google Cloud Platform, GCP. This is all true by the way. Google has absolutely awesome tech and the talk, as well as his talk, Pichai, but also Kurian's was forward thinking and laid out a vision of the future. But it didn't address in our view, and I talked to Sarbjeet Johal about this as well, today's challenges to the degree that Microsoft did and we expect AWS will at re:Invent this year, it was more out there, more forward thinking, what's possible in the future, somewhat less about today's problem, so I think it's resonates less with today's enterprise players. Thomas Kurian then took over from Sundar Pichai and did a really good job of highlighting customers, and I think he has to, right? He has to say, "Look, we are in this game. We have customers, 9 out of the top 10 media firms use Google Cloud. 8 out of the top 10 manufacturers. 9 out of the top 10 retailers. Same for telecom, same for healthcare. 8 out of the top 10 retail banks." He and Sundar specifically referenced a number of companies, customers, including Avery Dennison, Groupe Renault, H&M, John Hopkins, Prudential, Minna Bank out of Japan, ANZ bank and many, many others during the session. So you know, they had some proof points and you got to give 'em props for that. Now like Microsoft, Google talked about infrastructure, they referenced training processors and regions and compute optionality and storage and how new workloads were emerging, particularly data-driven workloads in AI that required new infrastructure. He explicitly highlighted partnerships within Nvidia and Intel. I didn't see anything on Arm, which somewhat surprised me 'cause I believe Google's working on that or at least has come following in AWS's suit if you will, but maybe that's why they're not mentioning it or maybe I got to do more research there, but let's park that for a minute. But again, as we've extensively discussed in Breaking Analysis in our view when it comes to compute, AWS via its Annapurna acquisition is well ahead of the pack in this area. Arm is making its way into the enterprise, but all three companies are heavily investing in infrastructure, which is great news for customers and the ecosystem. We'll come back to that. Data and AI go hand in hand, and there was no shortage of data talk. Google didn't mention Snowflake or Databricks specifically, but it did mention, by the way, it mentioned Mongo a couple of times, but it did mention Google's, quote, Open Data cloud. Now maybe Google has used that term before, but Snowflake has been marketing the data cloud concept for a couple of years now. So that struck as a shot across the bow to one of its partners and obviously competitor, Snowflake. At BigQuery is a main centerpiece of Google's data strategy. Kurian talked about how they can take any data from any source in any format from any cloud provider with BigQuery Omni and aggregate and understand it. And with the support of Apache Iceberg and Delta and Hudi coming in the future and its open Data Cloud Alliance, they talked a lot about that. So without specifically mentioning Snowflake or Databricks, Kurian co-opted a lot of messaging from these two players, such as life and tech. Kurian also talked about Google Workspace and how it's now at 8 million users up from 6 million just two years ago. There's a lot of discussion on developer optionality and several details on tools supported and the open mantra of Google. And finally on security, Google brought out Kevin Mandian, he's a CUBE alum, extremely impressive individual who's CEO of Mandiant, a leading security service provider and consultancy that Google recently acquired for around 5.3 billion. They talked about moving from a shared responsibility model to a shared fate model, which is again, it's kind of a shot across AWS's bow, kind of shared responsibility model. It's unclear that Google will pay the same penalty if a customer doesn't live up to its portion of the shared responsibility, but we can probably assume that the customer is still going to bear the brunt of the pain, nonetheless. Mandiant is really interesting because it's a services play and Google has stated that it is not a services company, it's going to give partners in the channel plenty of room to play. So we'll see what it does with Mandiant. But Mandiant is a very strong enterprise capability and in the single most important area security. So interesting acquisition by Google. Now as well, unlike Microsoft, Google is not competing with security leaders like Okta and CrowdStrike. Rather, it's partnering aggressively with those firms and prominently putting them forth. All right. Let's get into the ETR survey data and see how Microsoft and Google are positioned in four key markets that we've mentioned before, IaaS, BI analytics, database data platforms and collaboration software. First, let's look at the IaaS cloud. ETR is just about to release its October survey, so I cannot share the that data yet. I can only show July data, but we're going to give you some directional hints throughout this conversation. This chart shows net score or spending momentum on the vertical axis and overlap or presence in the data, i.e., how pervasive the platform is. That's on the horizontal axis. And we've inserted the Wikibon estimates of IaaS revenue for the companies, the Big 3. Actually the Big 4, we included Alibaba. So a couple of points in this somewhat busy data chart. First, Microsoft and AWS as always are dominant on both axes. The red dotted line there at 40% on the vertical axis. That represents a highly elevated spending velocity and all of the Big 3 are above the line. Now at the same time, GCP is well behind the two leaders on the horizontal axis and you can see that in the table insert as well in our revenue estimates. Now why is Azure bigger in the ETR survey when AWS is larger according to the Wikibon revenue estimates? And the answer is because Microsoft with products like 365 and Teams will often be considered by respondents in the survey as cloud by customers, so they fit into that ETR category. But in the insert data we're stripping out applications and SaaS from Microsoft and Google and we're only isolating on IaaS. The other point is when you take a look at the early October returns, you see downward pressure as signified by those dotted arrows on every name. The only exception was Dell, or Dell and IBM, which showing slightly improved momentum. So the survey data generally confirms what we know that AWS and Azure have a massive lead and strong momentum in the marketplace. But the real story is below the line. Unlike Google Cloud, which is on pace to lose well over 3 billion on an operating basis this year, AWS's operating profit is around $20 billion annually. Microsoft's Intelligent Cloud generated more than $30 billion in operating income last fiscal year. Let that sink in for a moment. Now again, that's not to say Google doesn't have traction, it does and Kurian gave some nice proof points and customer examples in his keynote presentation, but the data underscores the lead that Microsoft and AWS have on Google in cloud. And here's a breakdown of ETR's proprietary net score methodology, that vertical axis that we showed you in the previous chart. It asks customers, are you adopting the platform new? That's that lime green. Are you spending 6% or more? That's the forest green. Is you're spending flat? That's the gray. Is you're spending down 6% or worse? That's the pinkest color. Or are you replacing the platform, defecting? That's the bright red. You subtract the reds from the greens and you get a net score. Now one caveat here, which actually is really favorable from Microsoft, the Microsoft data that we're showing here is across the entire Microsoft portfolio. The other point is, this is July data, we'll have an update for you once ETR releases its October results. But we're talking about meaningful samples here, the ends. 620 for AWS over a thousand from Microsoft in more than 450 respondents in the survey for Google. So the real tell is replacements, that bright red. There is virtually no churn for AWS and Microsoft, but Google's churn is 5x, those two in the survey. Now 5% churn is not high, but you'd like to see three things for Google given it's smaller size. One is less churn, two is much, much higher adoption rates in the lime green. Three is a higher percentage of those spending more, the forest green. And four is a lower percentage of those spending less. And none of these conditions really applies here for Google. GCP is still not growing fast enough in our opinion, and doesn't have nearly the traction of the two leaders and that shows up in the survey data. All right, let's look at the next sector, BI analytics. Here we have that same XY dimension. Again, Microsoft dominating the picture. AWS very strong also in both axes. Tableau, very popular and respectable of course acquired by Salesforce on the vertical axis, still looking pretty good there. And again on the horizontal axis, big presence there for Tableau. And Google with Looker and its other platforms is also respectable, but it again, has some work to do. Now notice Streamlit, that's a recent Snowflake acquisition. It's strong in the vertical axis and because of Snowflake's go-to-market (indistinct), it's likely going to move to the right overtime. Grafana is also prominent in the Y axis, but a glimpse at the most recent survey data shows them slightly declining while Looker actually improves a bit. As does Cloudera, which we'll move up slightly. Again, Microsoft just blows you away, doesn't it? All right, now let's get into database and data platform. Same X Y dimensions, but now database and data warehouse. Snowflake as usual takes the top spot on the vertical axis and it is actually keeps moving to the right as well with again, Microsoft and AWS is dominant in the market, as is Oracle on the X axis, albeit it's got less spending velocity, but of course it's the database king. Google is well behind on the X axis but solidly above the 40% line on the vertical axis. Note that virtually all platforms will see pressure in the next survey due to the macro environment. Microsoft might even dip below the 40% line for the first time in a while. Lastly, let's look at the collaboration and productivity software market. This is such an important area for both Microsoft and Google. And just look at Microsoft with 365 and Teams up into the right. I mean just so impressive in ubiquitous. And we've highlighted Google. It's in the pack. It certainly is a nice base with 174 N, which I can tell you that N will rise in the next survey, which is an indication that more people are adopting. But given the investment and the tech behind it and all the AI and Google's resources, you'd really like to see Google in this space above the 40% line, given the importance of this market, of this collaboration area to Google's success and the degree to which they emphasize it in their pitch. And look, this brings up something that we've talked about before on Breaking Analysis. Google doesn't have a tech problem. This is a go-to-market and marketing challenge that Google faces and it's up against two go-to-market champs and Microsoft and AWS. And Google doesn't have the enterprise sales culture. It's trying, it's making progress, but it's like that racehorse that has all the potential in the world, but it's just missing some kind of key ingredient to put it over at the top. It's always coming in third, (chuckles) but we're watching and Google's obviously, making some investments as we shared with earlier. All right. Some final thoughts on what we learned this week and in this research: customers and partners should be thrilled that both Microsoft and Google along with AWS are spending so much money on innovation and building out global platforms. This is a gift to the industry and we should be thankful frankly because it's good for business, it's good for competitiveness and future innovation as a platform that can be built upon. Now we didn't talk much about multi-cloud, we haven't even mentioned supercloud, but both Microsoft and Google have a story that resonates with customers in cross cloud capabilities, unlike AWS at this time. But we never say never when it comes to AWS. They sometimes and oftentimes surprise you. One of the other things that Sarbjeet Johal and John Furrier and I have discussed is that each of the Big 3 is positioning to their respective strengths. AWS is the best IaaS. Microsoft is building out the kind of, quote, we-make-it-easy-for-you cloud, and Google is trying to be the open data cloud with its open-source chops and excellent tech. And that puts added pressure on Snowflake, doesn't it? You know, Thomas Kurian made some comments according to CRN, something to the effect that, we are the only company that can do the data cloud thing across clouds, which again, if I'm being honest is not really accurate. Now I haven't clarified these statements with Google and often things get misquoted, but there's little question that, as AWS has done in the past with Redshift, Google is taking a page out of Snowflake, Databricks as well. A big difference in the Big 3 is that AWS doesn't have this big emphasis on the up-the-stack collaboration software that both Microsoft and Google have, and that for Microsoft and Google will drive captive IaaS consumption. AWS obviously does some of that in database, a lot of that in database, but ISVs that compete with Microsoft and Google should have a greater affinity, one would think, to AWS for competitive reasons. and the same thing could be said in security, we would think because, as I mentioned before, Microsoft competes very directly with CrowdStrike and Okta and others. One of the big thing that Sarbjeet mentioned that I want to call out here, I'd love to have your opinion. AWS specifically, but also Microsoft with Azure have successfully created what Sarbjeet calls brand distance. AWS from the Amazon Retail, and even though AWS all the time talks about Amazon X and Amazon Y is in their product portfolio, but you don't really consider it part of the retail organization 'cause it's not. Azure, same thing, has created its own identity. And it seems that Google still struggles to do that. It's still very highly linked to the sort of core of Google. Now, maybe that's by design, but for enterprise customers, there's still some potential confusion with Google, what's its intentions? How long will they continue to lose money and invest? Are they going to pull the plug like they do on so many other tools? So you know, maybe some rethinking of the marketing there and the positioning. Now we didn't talk much about ecosystem, but it's vital for any cloud player, and Google again has some work to do relative to the leaders. Which brings us to supercloud. The ecosystem and end customers are now in a position this decade to digitally transform. And we're talking here about building out their own clouds, not by putting in and building data centers and installing racks of servers and storage devices, no. Rather to build value on top of the hyperscaler gift that has been presented. And that is a mega trend that we're watching closely in theCUBE community. While there's debate about the supercloud name and so forth, there little question in our minds that the next decade of cloud will not be like the last. All right, we're going to leave it there today. Many thanks to Sarbjeet Johal, and my business partner, John Furrier, for their input to today's episode. Thanks to Alex Myerson who's on production and manages the podcast and Ken Schiffman as well. Kristen Martin and Cheryl Knight helped get the word out on social media and in our newsletters. And Rob Hof is our editor in chief over at SiliconANGLE, who does some wonderful editing. And check out SiliconANGLE, a lot of coverage on Google Cloud Next and Microsoft Ignite. Remember, all these episodes are available as podcast wherever you listen. Just search Breaking Analysis podcast. I publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. And you can always get in touch with me via email, david.vellante@siliconangle.com or you can DM me at dvellante or comment on my LinkedIn posts. And please do check out etr.ai, the best survey data in the enterprise tech business. This is Dave Vellante for the CUBE Insights, powered by ETR. Thanks for watching and we'll see you next time on Breaking Analysis. (gentle music)

>> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR. This is "Breaking Analysis" with Dave Vellante. >> Virtually all tech companies have expressed caution in their respective earnings calls, and why not? I know you're sick in talking about the macroeconomic environment, but it's full of uncertainties and there's no upside to providing aggressive guidance when sellers are in control. They punish even the slightest miss. Moreover, the spending data confirms the softening market across the board, so it's becoming expected that CFOs will guide cautiously. But companies facing execution challenges, they can't hide behind the macro, which is why it's important to understand which firms are best positioned to maintain momentum through the headwinds and come out the other side stronger. Hello, and welcome to this week's Wikibon Cube Insights powered by ETR. In this "Breaking Analysis," we'll do three things. First, we're going to share a high-level view of the spending pinch that almost all sectors are experiencing. Second, we're going to highlight some of those companies that continue to show notably strong momentum and relatively high spending velocity on their platforms, albeit less robust than last year. And third, we're going to give you a peak at how one senior technology leader in the financial sector sees the competitive dynamic between AWS, Snowflake, and Databricks. So I landed on the red eye this morning and opened my eyes, and then opened my email to see this. My Barron's Daily had a headline telling me how bad things are and why they could get worse. The S&P Thursday hit a new closing low for the year. The safe haven of bonds are sucking wind. The market hasn't seemed to find a floor. Central banks are raising rates. Inflation is still high, but the job market remains strong. Oh, not to mention that the US debt service is headed toward a trillion dollars per year, and the geopolitical situation is pretty tense, and Europe seems to be really struggling. Yeah, so the Santa Claus rally is really looking pretty precarious, especially if there's a liquidity crunch coming, like guess why they call Barron's Barron's. Last week, we showed you this graphic ahead of the UiPath event. For months, the big four sectors, cloud, containers, AI, and RPA, have shown spending momentum above the rest. Now, this chart shows net score or spending velocity on specific sectors, and these four have consistently trended above the 40% red line for two years now, until this past ETR survey. ML/AI and RPA have decelerated as shown by the squiggly lines, and our premise was that they are more discretionary than the other sectors. The big four is now the big two: cloud and containers. But the reality is almost every sector in the ETR taxonomy is down as shown here. This chart shows the sectors that have decreased in a meaningful way. Almost all sectors are now below the trend line and only cloud and containers, as we showed earlier, are above the magic 40% mark. Container platforms and container orchestration are those gray dots. And no sector has shown a significant increase in spending velocity relative to October 2021 survey. In addition to ML/AI and RPA, information security, yes, security, virtualizations, video conferencing, outsourced IT, syndicated research. Syndicated research, yeah, those Gartner, IDC, Forrester, they stand out as seemingly the most discretionary, although we would argue that security is less discretionary. But what you're seeing is a share shift as we've previously reported toward modern platforms and away from point tools. But the point is there is no sector that is immune from the macroeconomic environment. Although remember, as we reported last week, we're still expecting five to 6% IT spending growth this year relative to 2021, but it's a dynamic environment. So let's now take a look at some of the key players and see how they're performing on a relative basis. This chart shows the net score or spending momentum on the y-axis and the pervasiveness of the vendor within the ETR survey measured as the percentage of respondents citing the vendor in use. As usual, Microsoft and AWS stand out because they are both pervasive on the x-axis and they're highly elevated on the vertical axis. For two companies of this size that demonstrate and maintain net scores above the 40% mark is extremely impressive. Although AWS is now showing much higher on the vertical scale relative to Microsoft, which is a new trend. Normally, we see Microsoft dominating on both dimensions. Salesforce is impressive as well because it's so large, but it's below those two on the vertical axis. Now, Google is meaningfully large, but relative to the other big public clouds, AWS and Azure, we see this as disappointing. John Blackledge of Cowen went on CNBC this past week and said that GCP, by his estimates, are 75% of Google Cloud's reported revenue and is now only five years behind AWS in Azure. Now, our models say, "No way." Google Cloud Platform, by our estimate, is running at about $3 billion per quarter or more like 60% of Google's reported overall cloud revenue. You have to go back to 2016 to find AWS running at that level and 2018 for Azure. So we would estimate that GCP is six years behind AWS and four years behind Azure from a revenue performance standpoint. Now, tech-wise, you can make a stronger case for Google. They have really strong tech. But revenue is, in our view, a really good indicator. Now, we circle here ServiceNow because they have become a generational company and impressively remain above the 40% line. We were at CrowdStrike with theCUBE two weeks ago, and we saw firsthand what we see as another generational company in the making. And you can see the company spending momentum is quite impressive. Now, HashiCorp and Snowflake have now surpassed Kubernetes to claim the top net score spots. Now, we know Kubernetes isn't a company, but ETR tracks it as though it were just for context. And we've highlighted Databricks as well, showing momentum, but it doesn't have the market presence of Snowflake. And there are a number of other players in the green: Pure Storage, Workday, Elastic, JFrog, Datadog, Palo Alto, Zscaler, CyberArk, Fortinet. Those last ones are in security, but again, they're all off their recent highs of 2021 and early 2022. Now, speaking of AWS, Snowflake, and Databricks, our colleague Eric Bradley of ETR recently held an in-depth interview with a senior executive at a large financial institution to dig into the analytics space. And there were some interesting takeaways that we'd like to share. The first is a discussion about whether or not AWS can usurp Snowflake as the top dog in analytics. I'll let you read this at your at your leisure, but I'll pull out some call-outs as indicated by the red lines. This individual's take was quite interesting. Note the comment that quote, this is my area of expertise. This person cited AWS's numerous databases as problematic, but Redshift was cited as the closest competitors to Snowflake. This individual also called out Snowflake's current cross-cloud Advantage, what we sometimes call supercloud, as well as the value add in their marketplace as a differentiator. But the point is this person was actually making, the point that this person was actually making is that cloud vendors make a lot of money from Snowflake. AWS, for example, see Snowflake as much more of a partner than a competitor. And as we've reported, Snowflake drives a lot of EC2 and storage revenue for AWS. Now, as well, this doesn't mean AWS does not have a strong marketplace. It does. Probably the best in the business, but the point is Snowflake's marketplace is exclusively focused on a data marketplace and the company's challenge or opportunity is to build up that ecosystem and to continue to add partners and create network effects that allow them to create long-term sustainable moat for the company, while at the same time, staying ahead of the competition with innovation. Now, the other comment that caught our attention was Snowflake's differentiators. This individual cited three areas. One, the well-known separation of compute and storage, which, of course, AWS has replicated sort of, maybe not as elegant in the sense that you can reduce the compute load with Redshift, but unlike Snowflake, you can't shut it down. Two, with Snowflake's data sharing capability, which is becoming quite well-known and a key part of its value proposition. And three, its marketplace. And again, key opportunity for Snowflake to build out its ecosystem. Close feature gaps that it's not necessarily going to deliver on its own. And really importantly, create governed and secure data sharing experiences for anyone on the data cloud or across clouds. Now, the last thing this individual addressed in the ETR interview that we'll share is how Databricks and Snowflake are attacking a similar problem, i.e. simplifying data, data sharing, and getting more value from data. The key messages here are there's overlap with these two platforms, but Databricks appeals to a more techy crowd. You open a notebook, when you're working with Databricks, you're more likely to be a data scientist, whereas with Snowflake, you're more likely to be aligned with the lines of business within sometimes an industry emphasis. We've talked about this quite often on "Breaking Analysis." Snowflake is moving into the data science arena from its data warehouse strength, and Databricks is moving into analytics and the world of SQL from its AI/ML position of strength, and both companies are doing well, although Snowflake was able to get to the public markets at IPO, Databricks has not. Now, even though Snowflake is on the quarterly shock clock as we saw earlier, it has a larger presence in the market. That's at least partly due to the tailwind of an IPO, and, of course, a stronger go-to market posture. Okay, so we wanted to share some of that with you, and I realize it's a bit of a tangent, but it's good stuff from a qualitative practitioner perspective. All right, let's close with some final thoughts. Look forward a little bit. Things in the short-term are really hard to predict. We've seen these oversold rallies peter out for the last couple of months because the world is such a mess right now, and it's really difficult to reconcile these counterveiling trends. Nothing seems to be working from a public policy perspective. Now, we know tech spending is softening, but let's not forget it, five to 6% growth. It's at or above historical norms, but there's no question the trend line is down. That said, there are certain growth companies, several mentioned in this episode, that are modern and vying to be generational platforms. They're well-positioned, financially sound, disciplined, with strong cash positions, with inherent profitability. What I mean by that is they can dial down growth if they wanted to, dial up EBIT, but being a growth company today is not what it was a year ago. Because of rising rates, the discounted cash flows are just less attractive. So earnings estimates, along with revenue multiples on these growth companies, are reverting toward the mean. However, companies like Snowflake, and CrowdStrike, and some others are able to still command a relative premium because of their execution and continued momentum. Others, as we reported last week, like UiPath for example, despite really strong momentum and customer spending, have had execution challenges. Okta is another example of a company with strong spending momentum, but is absorbing off zero for example. And as a result, they're getting hit harder from evaluation standpoint. The bottom line is sellers are still firmly in control, the bulls have been humbled, and the traders aren't buying growth tech or much tech at all right now. But long-term investors are looking for entry points because these generational companies are going to be worth significantly more five to 10 years down the line. Okay, that's it for today. Thanks for watching this "Breaking Analysis" episode. Thanks to Alex Myerson and Ken Schiffman on production. And Alex manages our podcast as well. Kristen Martin and Cheryl Knight. They help get the word out on social media and in our newsletters. And Rob Hof is our editor-in-chief over at SiliconANGLE do some wonderful editing for us, so thank you. Thank you all. Remember that all these episodes are available as podcast wherever you listen. All you do is search "Breaking Analysis" podcast. I publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com and you can email me at david.vellante@siliconangle.com, or DM me @dvellante, or comment on my LinkedIn post. And please check out etr.ai for the very best survey data in the enterprise tech business. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE Insights, powered by ETR. Thanks for watching, and we'll see you next time on "Breaking Analysis." (gentle music)

>> Announcer: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR. This is "Breaking Analysis" with Dave Vellante. >> The rapid pace of cloud adoption has changed the way organizations approach cybersecurity. Specifically, the cloud is increasingly becoming the first line of cyber defense. As such, along with communicating to the board and creating a security aware culture, the chief information security officer must ensure that the shared responsibility model is being applied properly. Meanwhile, the DevSecOps team has emerged as the critical link between strategy and execution, while audit becomes the free safety, if you will, in the equation, i.e., the last line of defense. Hello, and welcome to this week's, we keep on CUBE Insights, powered by ETR. In this "Breaking Analysis", we'll share the latest data on hyperscale, IaaS, and PaaS market performance, along with some fresh ETR survey data. And we'll share some highlights and the puts and takes from the recent AWS re:Inforce event in Boston. But first, the macro. It's earning season, and that's what many people want to talk about, including us. As we reported last week, the macro spending picture is very mixed and weird. Think back to a week ago when SNAP reported. A player like SNAP misses and the Nasdaq drops 300 points. Meanwhile, Intel, the great semiconductor hope for America misses by a mile, cuts its revenue outlook by 15% for the year, and the Nasdaq was up nearly 250 points just ahead of the close, go figure. Earnings reports from Meta, Google, Microsoft, ServiceNow, and some others underscored cautious outlooks, especially those exposed to the advertising revenue sector. But at the same time, Apple, Microsoft, and Google, were, let's say less bad than expected. And that brought a sigh of relief. And then there's Amazon, which beat on revenue, it beat on cloud revenue, and it gave positive guidance. The Nasdaq has seen this month best month since the isolation economy, which "Breaking Analysis" contributor, Chip Symington, attributes to what he calls an oversold rally. But there are many unknowns that remain. How bad will inflation be? Will the fed really stop tightening after September? The Senate just approved a big spending bill along with corporate tax hikes, which generally don't favor the economy. And on Monday, August 1st, the market will likely realize that we are in the summer quarter, and there's some work to be done. Which is why it's not surprising that investors sold the Nasdaq at the close today on Friday. Are people ready to call the bottom? Hmm, some maybe, but there's still lots of uncertainty. However, the cloud continues its march, despite some very slight deceleration in growth rates from the two leaders. Here's an update of our big four IaaS quarterly revenue data. The big four hyperscalers will account for $165 billion in revenue this year, slightly lower than what we had last quarter. We expect AWS to surpass 83 billion this year in revenue. Azure will be more than 2/3rds the size of AWS, a milestone from Microsoft. Both AWS and Azure came in slightly below our expectations, but still very solid growth at 33% and 46% respectively. GCP, Google Cloud Platform is the big concern. By our estimates GCP's growth rate decelerated from 47% in Q1, and was 38% this past quarter. The company is struggling to keep up with the two giants. Remember, both GCP and Azure, they play a shell game and hide the ball on their IaaS numbers, so we have to use a survey data and other means of estimating. But this is how we see the market shaping up in 2022. Now, before we leave the overall cloud discussion, here's some ETR data that shows the net score or spending momentum granularity for each of the hyperscalers. These bars show the breakdown for each company, with net score on the right and in parenthesis, net score from last quarter. lime green is new adoptions, forest green is spending up 6% or more, the gray is flat, pink is spending at 6% down or worse, and the bright red is replacement or churn. Subtract the reds from the greens and you get net score. One note is this is for each company's overall portfolio. So it's not just cloud. So it's a bit of a mixed bag, but there are a couple points worth noting. First, anything above 40% or 40, here as shown in the chart, is considered elevated. AWS, as you can see, is well above that 40% mark, as is Microsoft. And if you isolate Microsoft's Azure, only Azure, it jumps above AWS's momentum. Google is just barely hanging on to that 40 line, and Alibaba is well below, with both Google and Alibaba showing much higher replacements, that bright red. But here's the key point. AWS and Azure have virtually no churn, no replacements in that bright red. And all four companies are experiencing single-digit numbers in terms of decreased spending within customer accounts. People may be moving some workloads back on-prem selectively, but repatriation is definitely not a trend to bet the house on, in our view. Okay, let's get to the main subject of this "Breaking Analysis". TheCube was at AWS re:Inforce in Boston this week, and we have some observations to share. First, we had keynotes from Steven Schmidt who used to be the chief information security officer at Amazon on Web Services, now he's the CSO, the chief security officer of Amazon. Overall, he dropped the I in his title. CJ Moses is the CISO for AWS. Kurt Kufeld of AWS also spoke, as did Lena Smart, who's the MongoDB CISO, and she keynoted and also came on theCUBE. We'll go back to her in a moment. The key point Schmidt made, one of them anyway, was that Amazon sees more data points in a day than most organizations see in a lifetime. Actually, it adds up to quadrillions over a fairly short period of time, I think, it was within a month. That's quadrillion, it's 15 zeros, by the way. Now, there was drill down focus on data protection and privacy, governance, risk, and compliance, GRC, identity, big, big topic, both within AWS and the ecosystem, network security, and threat detection. Those are the five really highlighted areas. Re:Inforce is really about bringing a lot of best practice guidance to security practitioners, like how to get the most out of AWS tooling. Schmidt had a very strong statement saying, he said, "I can assure you with a 100% certainty that single controls and binary states will absolutely positively fail." Hence, the importance of course, of layered security. We heard a little bit of chat about getting ready for the future and skating to the security puck where quantum computing threatens to hack all of the existing cryptographic algorithms, and how AWS is trying to get in front of all that, and a new set of algorithms came out, AWS is testing. And, you know, we'll talk about that maybe in the future, but that's a ways off. And by its prominent presence, the ecosystem was there enforced, to talk about their role and filling the gaps and picking up where AWS leaves off. We heard a little bit about ransomware defense, but surprisingly, at least in the keynotes, no discussion about air gaps, which we've talked about in previous "Breaking Analysis", is a key factor. We heard a lot about services to help with threat detection and container security and DevOps, et cetera, but there really wasn't a lot of specific talk about how AWS is simplifying the life of the CISO. Now, maybe it's inherently assumed as AWS did a good job stressing that security is job number one, very credible and believable in that front. But you have to wonder if the world is getting simpler or more complex with cloud. And, you know, you might say, "Well, Dave, come on, of course it's better with cloud." But look, attacks are up, the threat surface is expanding, and new exfiltration records are being set every day. I think the hard truth is, the cloud is driving businesses forward and accelerating digital, and those businesses are now exposed more than ever. And that's why security has become such an important topic to boards and throughout the entire organization. Now, the other epiphany that we had at re:Inforce is that there are new layers and a new trust framework emerging in cyber. Roles are shifting, and as a direct result of the cloud, things are changing within organizations. And this first hit me in a conversation with long-time cyber practitioner and Wikibon colleague from our early Wikibon days, and friend, Mike Versace. And I spent two days testing the premise that Michael and I talked about. And here's an attempt to put that conversation into a graphic. The cloud is now the first line of defense. AWS specifically, but hyperscalers generally provide the services, the talent, the best practices, and automation tools to secure infrastructure and their physical data centers. And they're really good at it. The security inside of hyperscaler clouds is best of breed, it's world class. And that first line of defense does take some of the responsibility off of CISOs, but they have to understand and apply the shared responsibility model, where the cloud provider leaves it to the customer, of course, to make sure that the infrastructure they're deploying is properly configured. So in addition to creating a cyber aware culture and communicating up to the board, the CISO has to ensure compliance with and adherence to the model. That includes attracting and retaining the talent necessary to succeed. Now, on the subject of building a security culture, listen to this clip on one of the techniques that Lena Smart, remember, she's the CISO of MongoDB, one of the techniques she uses to foster awareness and build security cultures in her organization. Play the clip >> Having the Security Champion program, so that's just, it's like one of my babies. That and helping underrepresented groups in MongoDB kind of get on in the tech world are both really important to me. And so the Security Champion program is purely purely voluntary. We have over 100 members. And these are people, there's no bar to join, you don't have to be technical. If you're an executive assistant who wants to learn more about security, like my assistant does, you're more than welcome. Up to, we actually, people grade themselves when they join us. We give them a little tick box, like five is, I walk on security water, one is I can spell security, but I'd like to learn more. Mixing those groups together has been game-changing for us. >> Now, the next layer is really where it gets interesting. DevSecOps, you know, we hear about it all the time, shifting left. It implies designing security into the code at the dev level. Shift left and shield right is the kind of buzz phrase. But it's getting more and more complicated. So there are layers within the development cycle, i.e., securing the container. So the app code can't be threatened by backdoors or weaknesses in the containers. Then, securing the runtime to make sure the code is maintained and compliant. Then, the DevOps platform so that change management doesn't create gaps and exposures, and screw things up. And this is just for the application security side of the equation. What about the network and implementing zero trust principles, and securing endpoints, and machine to machine, and human to app communication? So there's a lot of burden being placed on the DevOps team, and they have to partner with the SecOps team to succeed. Those guys are not security experts. And finally, there's audit, which is the last line of defense or what I called at the open, the free safety, for you football fans. They have to do more than just tick the box for the board. That doesn't cut it anymore. They really have to know their stuff and make sure that what they sign off on is real. And then you throw ESG into the mix is becoming more important, making sure the supply chain is green and also secure. So you can see, while much of this stuff has been around for a long, long time, the cloud is accelerating innovation in the pace of delivery. And so much is changing as a result. Now, next, I want to share a graphic that we shared last week, but a little different twist. It's an XY graphic with net score or spending velocity in the vertical axis and overlap or presence in the dataset on the horizontal. With that magic 40% red line as shown. Okay, I won't dig into the data and draw conclusions 'cause we did that last week, but two points I want to make. First, look at Microsoft in the upper-right hand corner. They are big in security and they're attracting a lot of dollars in the space. We've reported on this for a while. They're a five-star security company. And every time, from a spending standpoint in ETR data, that little methodology we use, every time I've run this chart, I've wondered, where the heck is AWS? Why aren't they showing up there? If security is so important to AWS, which it is, and its customers, why aren't they spending money with Amazon on security? And I asked this very question to Merrit Baer, who resides in the office of the CISO at AWS. Listen to her answer. >> It doesn't mean don't spend on security. There is a lot of goodness that we have to offer in ESS, external security services. But I think one of the unique parts of AWS is that we don't believe that security is something you should buy, it's something that you get from us. It's something that we do for you a lot of the time. I mean, this is the definition of the shared responsibility model, right? >> Now, maybe that's good messaging to the market. Merritt, you know, didn't say it outright, but essentially, Microsoft they charge for security. At AWS, it comes with the package. But it does answer my question. And, of course, the fact is that AWS can subsidize all this with egress charges. Now, on the flip side of that, (chuckles) you got Microsoft, you know, they're both, they're competing now. We can take CrowdStrike for instance. Microsoft and CrowdStrike, they compete with each other head to head. So it's an interesting dynamic within the ecosystem. Okay, but I want to turn to a powerful example of how AWS designs in security. And that is the idea of confidential computing. Of course, AWS is not the only one, but we're coming off of re:Inforce, and I really want to dig into something that David Floyer and I have talked about in previous episodes. And we had an opportunity to sit down with Arvind Raghu and J.D. Bean, two security experts from AWS, to talk about this subject. And let's share what we learned and why we think it matters. First, what is confidential computing? That's what this slide is designed to convey. To AWS, they would describe it this way. It's the use of special hardware and the associated firmware that protects customer code and data from any unauthorized access while the data is in use, i.e., while it's being processed. That's oftentimes a security gap. And there are two dimensions here. One is protecting the data and the code from operators on the cloud provider, i.e, in this case, AWS, and protecting the data and code from the customers themselves. In other words, from admin level users are possible malicious actors on the customer side where the code and data is being processed. And there are three capabilities that enable this. First, the AWS Nitro System, which is the foundation for virtualization. The second is Nitro Enclaves, which isolate environments, and then third, the Nitro Trusted Platform Module, TPM, which enables cryptographic assurances of the integrity of the Nitro instances. Now, we've talked about Nitro in the past, and we think it's a revolutionary innovation, so let's dig into that a bit. This is an AWS slide that was shared about how they protect and isolate data and code. On the left-hand side is a classical view of a virtualized architecture. You have a single host or a single server, and those white boxes represent processes on the main board, X86, or could be Intel, or AMD, or alternative architectures. And you have the hypervisor at the bottom which translates instructions to the CPU, allowing direct execution from a virtual machine into the CPU. But notice, you also have blocks for networking, and storage, and security. And the hypervisor emulates or translates IOS between the physical resources and the virtual machines. And it creates some overhead. Now, companies like VMware have done a great job, and others, of stripping out some of that overhead, but there's still an overhead there. That's why people still like to run on bare metal. Now, and while it's not shown in the graphic, there's an operating system in there somewhere, which is privileged, so it's got access to these resources, and it provides the services to the VMs. Now, on the right-hand side, you have the Nitro system. And you can see immediately the differences between the left and right, because the networking, the storage, and the security, the management, et cetera, they've been separated from the hypervisor and that main board, which has the Intel, AMD, throw in Graviton and Trainium, you know, whatever XPUs are in use in the cloud. And you can see that orange Nitro hypervisor. That is a purpose-built lightweight component for this system. And all the other functions are separated in isolated domains. So very strong isolation between the cloud software and the physical hardware running workloads, i.e., those white boxes on the main board. Now, this will run at practically bare metal speeds, and there are other benefits as well. One of the biggest is security. As we've previously reported, this came out of AWS's acquisition of Annapurna Labs, which we've estimated was picked up for a measly $350 million, which is a drop in the bucket for AWS to get such a strategic asset. And there are three enablers on this side. One is the Nitro cards, which are accelerators to offload that wasted work that's done in traditional architectures by typically the X86. We've estimated 25% to 30% of core capacity and cycles is wasted on those offloads. The second is the Nitro security chip, which is embedded and extends the root of trust to the main board hardware. And finally, the Nitro hypervisor, which allocates memory and CPU resources. So the Nitro cards communicate directly with the VMs without the hypervisors getting in the way, and they're not in the path. And all that data is encrypted while it's in motion, and of course, encryption at rest has been around for a while. We asked AWS, is this an, we presumed it was an Arm-based architecture. We wanted to confirm that. Or is it some other type of maybe hybrid using X86 and Arm? They told us the following, and quote, "The SoC, system on chips, for these hardware components are purpose-built and custom designed in-house by Amazon and Annapurna Labs. The same group responsible for other silicon innovations such as Graviton, Inferentia, Trainium, and AQUA. Now, the Nitro cards are Arm-based and do not use any X86 or X86/64 bit CPUs. Okay, so it confirms what we thought. So you may say, "Why should we even care about all this technical mumbo jumbo, Dave?" Well, a year ago, David Floyer and I published this piece explaining why Nitro and Graviton are secret weapons of Amazon that have been a decade in the making, and why everybody needs some type of Nitro to compete in the future. This is enabled, this Nitro innovations and the custom silicon enabled by the Annapurna acquisition. And AWS has the volume economics to make custom silicon. Not everybody can do it. And it's leveraging the Arm ecosystem, the standard software, and the fabrication volume, the manufacturing volume to revolutionize enterprise computing. Nitro, with the alternative processor, architectures like Graviton and others, enables AWS to be on a performance, cost, and power consumption curve that blows away anything we've ever seen from Intel. And Intel's disastrous earnings results that we saw this past week are a symptom of this mega trend that we've been talking about for years. In the same way that Intel and X86 destroyed the market for RISC chips, thanks to PC volumes, Arm is blowing away X86 with volume economics that cannot be matched by Intel. Thanks to, of course, to mobile and edge. Our prediction is that these innovations and the Arm ecosystem are migrating and will migrate further into enterprise computing, which is Intel's stronghold. Now, that stronghold is getting eaten away by the likes of AMD, Nvidia, and of course, Arm in the form of Graviton and other Arm-based alternatives. Apple, Tesla, Amazon, Google, Microsoft, Alibaba, and others are all designing custom silicon, and doing so much faster than Intel can go from design to tape out, roughly cutting that time in half. And the premise of this piece is that every company needs a Nitro to enable alternatives to the X86 in order to support emergent workloads that are data rich and AI-based, and to compete from an economic standpoint. So while at re:Inforce, we heard that the impetus for Nitro was security. Of course, the Arm ecosystem, and its ascendancy has enabled, in our view, AWS to create a platform that will set the enterprise computing market this decade and beyond. Okay, that's it for today. Thanks to Alex Morrison, who is on production. And he does the podcast. And Ken Schiffman, our newest member of our Boston Studio team is also on production. Kristen Martin and Cheryl Knight help spread the word on social media and in the community. And Rob Hof is our editor in chief over at SiliconANGLE. He does some great, great work for us. Remember, all these episodes are available as podcast. Wherever you listen, just search "Breaking Analysis" podcast. I publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. Or you can email me directly at David.Vellante@siliconangle.com or DM me @dvellante, comment on my LinkedIn post. And please do check out etr.ai for the best survey data in the enterprise tech business. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE Insights, powered by ETR. Thanks for watching. Be well, and we'll see you next time on "Breaking Analysis." (upbeat theme music)