(bright music) >> Hello, everyone. Welcome to theCUBE special presentation of International Women's Day. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. This is a global special open program we're doing every year. We're going to continue it every quarter. We're going to do more and more content, getting the voices out there and celebrating the diversity. And I'm excited to have an amazing guest here, LaDavia Drane, who's the head of Global Inclusion Diversity & Equity at AWS. LaDavia, we tried to get you in on AWS re:Invent, and you were super busy. So much going on. The industry has seen the light. They're seeing everything going on, and the numbers are up, but still not there, and getting better. This is your passion, our passion, a shared passion. Tell us about your situation, your career, how you got into it. What's your story? >> Yeah. Well, John, first of all, thank you so much for having me. I'm glad that we finally got this opportunity to speak. How did I get into this work? Wow, you know, I'm doing the work that I love to do, number one. It's always been my passion to be a voice for the voiceless, to create a seat at the table for folks that may not be welcome to certain tables. And so, it's been something that's been kind of the theme of my entire professional career. I started off as a lawyer, went to Capitol Hill, was able to do some work with members of Congress, both women members of Congress, but also, minority members of Congress in the US Congress. And then, that just morphed into what I think has become a career for me in inclusion, diversity, and equity. I decided to join Amazon because I could tell that it's a company that was ready to take it to the next level in this space. And sure enough, that's been my experience here. So now, I'm in it, I'm in it with two feet, doing great work. And yeah, yeah, it's almost a full circle moment for me. >> It's really an interesting background. You have a background in public policy. You mentioned Capitol Hill. That's awesome. DC kind of moves slow, but it's a complicated machinery there. Obviously, as you know, navigating that, Amazon grew significantly. We've been at every re:Invent with theCUBE since 2013, like just one year. I watched Amazon grow, and they've become very fast and also complicated, like, I won't say like Capitol, 'cause that's very slow, but Amazon's complicated. AWS is in the realm of powering a generation of public policy. We had the JEDI contract controversy, all kinds of new emerging challenges. This pivot to tech was great timing because one, (laughs) Amazon needed it because they were growing so fast in a male dominated world, but also, their business is having real impact on the public. >> That's right, that's right. And when you say the public, I'll just call it out. I think that there's a full spectrum of diversity and we work backwards from our customers, and our customers are diverse. And so, I really do believe, I agree that I came to the right place at the right time. And yeah, we move fast and we're also moving fast in this space of making sure that both internally and externally, we're doing the things that we need to do in order to reach a diverse population. >> You know, I've noticed how Amazon's changed from the culture, male dominated culture. Let's face it, it was. And now, I've seen over the past five years, specifically go back five, is kind of in my mental model, just the growth of female leaders, it's been impressive. And there was some controversy. They were criticized publicly for this. And we said a few things as well in those, like around 2014. How is Amazon ensuring and continuing to get the female employees feel represented and empowered? What's going on there? What programs do you have? Because it's not just doing it, it's continuing it, right? And 'cause there is a lot more to do. I mean, the half (laughs) the products are digital now for everybody. It's not just one population. (laughs) Everyone uses digital products. What is Amazon doing now to keep it going? >> Well, I'll tell you, John, it's important for me to note that while we've made great progress, there's still more that can be done. I am very happy to be able to report that we have big women leaders. We have leaders running huge parts of our business, which includes storage, customer experience, industries and business development. And yes, we have all types of programs. And I should say that, instead of calling it programs, I'm going to call it strategic initiatives, right? We are very thoughtful about how we engage our women. And not only how we hire, attract women, but how we retain our women. We do that through engagement, groups like our affinity groups. So Women at Amazon is an affinity group. Women in finance, women in engineering. Just recently, I helped our Black employee network women's group launch, BEN Women. And so you have these communities of women who come together, support and mentor one another. We have what we call Amazon Circles. And so these are safe spaces where women can come together and can have conversations, where we are able to connect mentors and sponsors. And we're seeing that it's making all the difference in the world for our women. And we see that through what we call Connections. We have an inclusion sentiment tracker. So we're able to ask questions every single day and we get a response from our employees and we can see how are our women feeling, how are they feeling included at work? Are they feeling as though they can be who they are authentically at Amazon? And so, again, there's more work that needs to be done. But I will say that as I look at the data, as I'm talking to engaging women, I really do believe that we're on the right path. >> LaDavia, talk about the urgent needs of the women that you're hearing from the Circles. That's a great program. The affinity circles, the groups are great. Now, you have the groups, what are you hearing? What are the needs of the women? >> So, John, I'll just go a little bit into what's becoming a conversation around equity. So, initially I think we talked a lot about equality, right? We wanted everyone to have fair access to the same things. But now, women are looking for equity. We're talking about not just leveling the playing field, which is equality, but don't give me the same as you give everyone else. Instead, recognize that I may have different circumstances, I may have different needs. And give me what I need, right? Give me what I need, not just the same as everyone else. And so, I love seeing women evolve in this way, and being very specific about what they need more than, or what's different than what a man may have in the same situation because their circumstances are not always the same and we should treat them as such. >> Yeah, I think that's a great equity point. I interviewed a woman here, ex-Amazonian, she's now a GSI, Global System Integrator. She's a single mom. And she said remote work brought her equity because people on her team realized that she was a single mom. And it wasn't the, how do you balance life, it was her reality. And what happened was, she had more empathy with the team because of the new work environment. So, I think this is an important point to call out, that equity, because that really makes things smoother in terms of the interactions, not the assumptions, you have to be, you know, always the same as a man. So, how does that go? What's the current... How would you characterize the progress in that area right now? >> I believe that employers are just getting better at this. It's just like you said, with the hybrid being the norm now, you have an employer who is looking at people differently based on what they need. And it's not a problem, it's not an issue that a single mother says, "Well, I need to be able to leave by 5:00 PM." I think that employers now, and Amazon is right there along with other employers, are starting just to evolve that muscle of meeting the needs. People don't have to feel different. You don't have to feel as though there's some kind of of special circumstance for me. Instead, it's something that we, as employers, we're asking for. And we want to meet those needs that are different in some situations. >> I know you guys do a lot of support of women outside of AWS, and I had a story I recorded for the program. This woman, she talked about how she was a nerd from day one. She's a tomboy. They called her a tomboy, but she always loved robotics. And she ended up getting dual engineering degrees. And she talked about how she didn't run away and there was many signals to her not to go. And she powered through, at that time, and during her generation, that was tough. And she was successful. How are you guys taking the education to STEM, to women, at young ages? Because we don't want to turn people away from tech if they have the natural affinity towards it. And not everyone is going to be, as, you know, (laughs) strong, if you will. And she was a bulldog, she was great. She's just like, "I'm going for it. I love it so much." But not everyone's like that. So, this is an educational thing. How do you expose technology, STEM for instance, and making it more accessible, no stigma, all that stuff? I mean, I think we've come a long way, but still. >> What I love about women is we don't just focus on ourselves. We do a very good job of thinking about the generation that's coming after us. And so, I think you will see that very clearly with our women Amazonians. I'll talk about three different examples of ways that Amazonian women in particular, and there are men that are helping out, but I'll talk about the women in particular that are leading in this area. On my team, in the Inclusion, Diversity & Equity team, we have a program that we run in Ghana where we meet basic STEM needs for a afterschool program. So we've taken this small program, and we've turned their summer camp into this immersion, where girls and boys, we do focus on the girls, can come and be completely immersed in STEM. And when we provide the technology that they need, so that they'll be able to have access to this whole new world of STEM. Another program which is run out of our AWS In Communities team, called AWS Girls' Tech Day. All across the world where we have data centers, we're running these Girls' Tech Day. They're basically designed to educate, empower and inspire girls to pursue a career in tech. Really, really exciting. I was at the Girls' Tech Day here recently in Columbus, Ohio, and I got to tell you, it was the highlight of my year. And then I'll talk a little bit about one more, it's called AWS GetIT, and it's been around for a while. So this is a program, again, it's a global program, it's actually across 13 countries. And it allows girls to explore cloud technology, in particular, and to use it to solve real world problems. Those are just three examples. There are many more. There are actually women Amazonians that create these opportunities off the side of their desk in they're local communities. We, in Inclusion, Diversity & Equity, we fund programs so that women can do this work, this STEM work in their own local communities. But those are just three examples of some of the things that our Amazonians are doing to bring girls along, to make sure that the next generation is set up and that the next generation knows that STEM is accessible for girls. >> I'm a huge believer. I think that's amazing. That's great inspiration. We need more of that. It's awesome. And why wouldn't we spread it around? I want to get to the equity piece, that's the theme for this year's IWD. But before that, getting that segment, I want to ask you about your title, and the choice of words and the sequence. Okay, Global Inclusion, Diversity, Equity. Not diversity only. Inclusion is first. We've had this debate on theCUBE many years now, a few years back, it started with, "Inclusion is before diversity," "No, diversity before inclusion, equity." And so there's always been a debate (laughs) around the choice of words and their order. What's your opinion? What's your reaction to that? Is it by design? And does inclusion come before diversity, or am I just reading it to it? >> Inclusion doesn't necessarily come before diversity. (John laughs) It doesn't necessarily come before equity. Equity isn't last, but we do lead with inclusion in AWS. And that is very important to us, right? And thank you for giving me the opportunity to talk a little bit about it. We lead with inclusion because we want to make sure that every single one of our builders know that they have a place in this work. And so it's important that we don't only focus on hiring, right? Diversity, even though there are many, many different levels and spectrums to diversity. Inclusion, if you start there, I believe that it's what it takes to make sure that you have a workplace where everyone knows you're included here, you belong here, we want you to stay here. And so, it helps as we go after diversity. And we want all types of people to be a part of our workforce, but we want you to stay. And inclusion is the thing. It's the thing that I believe makes sure that people stay because they feel included. So we lead with inclusion. Doesn't mean that we put diversity or equity second or third, but we are proud to lead with inclusion. >> Great description. That was fabulous. Totally agree. Double click, thumbs up. Now let's get into the theme. Embracing equity, 'cause this is a term, it's in quotes. What does that mean to you? You mentioned it earlier, I love it. What does embrace equity mean? >> Yeah. You know, I do believe that when people think about equity, especially non-women think about equity, it's kind of scary. It's, "Am I going to give away what I have right now to make space for someone else?" But that's not what equity means. And so I think that it's first important that we just educate ourselves about what equity really is. It doesn't mean that someone's going to take your spot, right? It doesn't mean that the pie, let's use that analogy, gets smaller. The pie gets bigger, right? >> John: Mm-hmm. >> And everyone is able to have their piece of the pie. And so, I do believe that I love that IWD, International Women's Day is leading with embracing equity because we're going to the heart of the matter when we go to equity, we're going to the place where most people feel most challenged, and challenging people to think about equity and what it means and how they can contribute to equity and thus, embrace equity. >> Yeah, I love it. And the advice that you have for tech professionals out there on this, how do you advise other groups? 'Cause you guys are doing a lot of great work. Other organizations are catching up. What would be your advice to folks who are working on this equity challenge to reach gender equity and other equitable strategic initiatives? And everyone's working on this. Sustainability and equity are two big projects we're seeing in every single company right now. >> Yeah, yeah. I will say that I believe that AWS has proven that equity and going after equity does work. Embracing equity does work. One example I would point to is our AWS Impact Accelerator program. I mean, we provide 30 million for early stage startups led by women, Black founders, Latino founders, LGBTQ+ founders, to help them scale their business. That's equity. That's giving them what they need. >> John: Yeah. >> What they need is they need access to capital. And so, what I'd say to companies who are looking at going into the space of equity, I would say embrace it. Embrace it. Look at examples of what companies like AWS is doing around it and embrace it because I do believe that the tech industry will be better when we're comfortable with embracing equity and creating strategic initiatives so that we could expand equity and make it something that's just, it's just normal. It's the normal course of business. It's what we do. It's what we expect of ourselves and our employees. >> LaDavia, you're amazing. Thank you for spending the time. My final couple questions really more around you. Capitol Hill, DC, Amazon Global Head of Inclusion, Diversity & Equity, as you look at making change, being a change agent, being a leader, is really kind of similar, right? You've got DC, it's hard to make change there, but if you do it, it works, right? (laughs) If you don't, you're on the side of the road. So, as you're in your job now, what are you most excited about? What's on your agenda? What's your focus? >> Yeah, so I'm most excited about the potential of what we can get done, not just for builders that are currently in our seats, but for builders in the future. I tend to focus on that little girl. I don't know her, I don't know where she lives. I don't know how old she is now, but she's somewhere in the world, and I want her to grow up and for there to be no question that she has access to AWS, that she can be an employee at AWS. And so, that's where I tend to center, I center on the future. I try to build now, for what's to come, to make sure that this place is accessible for that little girl. >> You know, I've always been saying for a long time, the software is eating the world, now you got digital transformation, business transformation. And that's not a male only, or certain category, it's everybody. And so, software that's being built, and the systems that are being built, have to have first principles. Andy Jassy is very strong on this. He's been publicly saying, when trying to get pinned down about certain books in the bookstore that might offend another group. And he's like, "Look, we have first principles. First principles is a big part of leading." What's your reaction to that? How would you talk to another professional and say, "Hey," you know this, "How do I make the right call? Am I doing the wrong thing here? And I might say the wrong thing here." And is it first principles based? What's the guardrails? How do you keep that in check? How would you advise someone as they go forward and lean in to drive some of the change that we're talking about today? >> Yeah, I think as leaders, we have to trust ourselves. And Andy actually, is a great example. When I came in as head of ID&E for AWS, he was our CEO here at AWS. And I saw how he authentically spoke from his heart about these issues. And it just aligned with who he is personally, his own personal principles. And I do believe that leaders should be free to do just that. Not to be scripted, but to lead with their principles. And so, I think Andy's actually a great example. I believe that I am the professional in this space at this company that I am today because of the example that Andy set. >> Yeah, you guys do a great job, LaDavia. What's next for you? >> What's next. >> World tour, you traveling around? What's on your plate these days? Share a little bit about what you're currently working on. >> Yeah, so you know, at Amazon, we're always diving deep. We're always diving deep, we're looking for root cause, working very hard to look around corners, and trying to build now for what's to come in the future. And so I'll continue to do that. Of course, we're always planning and working towards re:Invent, so hopefully, John, I'll see you at re:Invent this December. But we have some great things happening throughout the year, and we'll continue to... I think it's really important, as opposed to looking to do new things, to just continue to flex the same muscles and to show that we can be very, very focused and intentional about doing the same things over and over each year to just become better and better at this work in this space, and to show our employees that we're committed for the long haul. So of course, there'll be new things on the horizon, but what I can say, especially to Amazonians, is we're going to continue to stay focused, and continue to get at this issue, and doing this issue of inclusion, diversity and equity, and continue to do the things that work and make sure that our culture evolves at the same time. >> LaDavia, thank you so much. I'll give you the final word. Just share some of the big projects you guys are working on so people can know about them, your strategic initiatives. Take a minute to plug some of the major projects and things that are going on that people either know about or should know about, or need to know about. Take a minute to share some of the big things you guys got going on, or most of the things. >> So, one big thing that I would like to focus on, focus my time on, is what we call our Innovation Fund. This is actually how we scale our work and we meet the community's needs by providing micro grants to our employees so our employees can go out into the world and sponsor all types of different activities, create activities in their local communities, or throughout the regions. And so, that's probably one thing that I would like to focus on just because number one, it's our employees, it's how we scale this work, and it's how we meet our community's needs in a very global way. And so, thank you John, for the opportunity to talk a bit about what we're up to here at Amazon Web Services. But it's just important to me, that I end with our employees because for me, that's what's most important. And they're doing some awesome work through our Innovation Fund. >> Inclusion makes the workplace great. Empowerment, with that kind of program, is amazing. LaDavia Drane, thank you so much. Head of Global Inclusion and Diversity & Equity at AWS. This is International Women's Day. I'm John Furrier with theCUBE. Thanks for watching and stay with us for more great interviews and people and what they're working on. Thanks for watching. (bright music)

(bright, upbeat music playing) >> Hello, Brilliant Cloud community and welcome back to AWS re:Invent, where we are live all day everyday from the show floor, here in Las Vegas, Nevada. I'm Savannah Peterson joined by my beautiful co-host, Lisa Martin here on theCUBE. Lisa, you're smiling, you're radiating, day three, you would think it was day one. How you doing? >> Amazing. I can't believe the energy that has been maintained >> It's been a theme. on this show floor, since Monday night at 4:00 pm. >> I know, and I kind of thought today we might see some folks trickling out. It is packed, as our guests and I were, we were all just talking about, right before the segment, almost too packed which is a really great sign for AWS. >> It is. We're hearing north of 55,000 people here. And of course, we only get a little snapshot of what's at the Venetian. >> Literally this corner, yeah. We don't get to see anything else around The Strip, that's going on, so it's massive. >> Yeah, it is very massive. I'm super excited. We've got two guests from Infosys with us on this last segment from this stage today. David and Anant, welcome to the show. How you doing? >> Awesome. >> You're both smiling and I am really excited. We have our first prop of the show, (David and Anant laughing) and it's a pretty flashy, sexy prop. Anant, what's going on here? >> Oh, so this is something that we are very proud of. Last year we won one award, which was very special for us because it was our first award with AWS, and that was, "The Industry Partner of The Year Award." And on the back of that, this year we won three awards and this is super awesome for us, because all of them are very special. One was in collaboration, second was in design, and third was in sustainability. So we are very proud, and we thank AWS, and it's a fantastic partnership. >> Yeah, congratulations. >> Anant: Yes. I mean that's huge. >> Yes, it's absolutely huge. And the second one is, we are the Launch Partner for MSK, which again is a very proud thing for us. So I think those are the two things that we wanted to talk about. >> How many awards are you going to win next year then? (all laughing) >> We want to target more than three. (Savannah chuckles) >> Keep it going up. >> Probably five, right? >> So it's the odd numbers, one, three, five, seven, ten. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Savannah: There you go. >> I think we got that question last year and we said we'd get two, and we ended up over-delivering with three, so who knows? >> Hey, nothing wrong with setting the bar low and clearing it. And I mean, not setting it low, setting it with one and clearing it with three is pretty fantastic. We talk about it as an ego thing sometimes with awards and it feels great for internal culture, but David, what does it mean on the partnership side to win awards like that? >> So what's really important for us with our partners is to make sure that we're achieving their goals, and when their goals are achieved in our partnership it's just the byproduct that we're achieving our own with our clients. The awards are a great representation of that to see, you know, again, being recognized in three different categories really shows that we've had success with AWS, and in turn, you know, Anant and I can attest to it. We've been very successful at the partnership on our side. >> Yeah, and I bet it's really exciting for the team. Just speaking for Energy (indistinct) >> And there's celebration, you know, there's been a few cocktails being raised... >> Has there? In Las Vegas? >> David: I know. Cocktails? >> Lisa Martin: Shocking! I'm shocked! >> Lisa Martin: I know! (all laughing) I wouldn't mind one right now to be really, really honest. Let's dig into the product a little bit. Infosys Cobalt. What's the scoop, Anant? >> Yeah, so first of all, we were the first ones to actually launch a Cloud brand called Cobalt, right? We were the first ones in the world. In fact, one of our competitor followed us soon after. So essentially what we did was we brought all our Cloud offerings into one brand called Cobalt. It becomes very clear to our customers on what our proposition is. It is very consistent to the market in terms of what our narrative is. And it's a little easy for our customers to understand what we bring to the table. So Cobalt is not one product or what one platform it's a set of services, solutions and platforms that we bring to accelerate customer's journey where they're leveraging Cloud. So that's what Cobalt is. >> Awesome, everyone wants to do everything faster. >> Yes. >> Lisa Martin: Yeah. >> And the booth was packed. I walked by earlier, it was absolutely buzzing. >> Yes. >> Yeah. Nobody wants to do, you know, wants less data slower. >> Anant: Yes. (Savannah laughs) >> It's always more faster. >> Anant: More faster. And we're living in this explosion unlike anything this swarm of data unlike anything that we've ever seen before. Every company, regardless of industry has to be a data company. >> Anant: Yes. But they have to be able to work with the right partners to extract, to first of all harness all that data, extract insights in real time, because of course on the consumer side we're not patient anymore. >> Anant: Yes. We expect a personalized, realtime, custom experience. >> Anant: Absolutely. >> How do you work with AWS to help deliver that and how do the partners help deliver that as well? >> Well I'll start with on the partner side of it. You walk through the hallways here or down the aisles you see partners like MongoDB, Snowflake, Databricks and such, they're all attesting their commitment and their strong partnership with AWS, and coincidentally they're also very good partners of our own. And as a result... >> Savannah: One big happy family here at AWS when you met. >> And this is something that I'm calling, coining the phrase sub-ecosystems. These are partnerships where one is successful with each other, and then the three come together, and we go together with an integrated solution. And it's really taking off. It's something that's really powerful. The fun thing about re:Invent here is isn't just that we're having amazing discussions with our clients and AWS, but we're also having with the other partners here about how we can all work together so... And data analytics is a big one, security is another hot one-- >> Lisa Martin: Security is huge. >> Savannah: Yeah. Cost optimization from the start. >> Absolutely. And Ruba was saying this, right? Ruba said, like she was giving example of a marathoner. Marathon is not a single man or a single woman sport, right? So similarly Cloud journey is a team's, sort of you know, team journey, so that's why partners play a big role in that and that's exactly what we are trying to do. >> So you guys get to see a lot of different companies across a lot of different industries. We're living in very interesting times, how do you see the Cloud evolving? >> Oh, yeah. So what we did when we launched Cobalt in 2020 we have now evolved our story. We call it Cobalt 2.0. And essentially what we wanted to do was to focus on industry Clouds. So it's not just about taking a workload and moving it from point A to point B or moving data to Cloud or getting out of data centers, but it's also being very specific to the industry that this specific customer belongs to, right? So for example, if we go to banking they would say we want to better our security posture. If we go to a retailer they want to basically have smart stores. If we go to a manufacturing customer they want to have a smart factory. So we want to make sure that there are specific industry blueprints and specific reference architectures that we bring and start delivering outcomes. So we call it something called... >> Savannah: I know you're hot on business outcomes. >> Yes. >> Savannah: Yes. So we call it something called the link of life forces. So there are six technologies; Cloud, Data, Edge, IOT, 5G, and AI. They will come together to deliver business outcomes. So that's where we are heading with Cobalt 2.0, And that's essentially what we want to do with our customers. >> Savannah: It's a lot to think about. >> Yes. >> David: Yes. >> And, yeah, go for it David. >> I was just saying from a partnering perspective, you know prior to Cloud, we were talking about transactional type businesses where if you ask a technology company who their partner is its generally a reseller where they're just basically taking one product and selling it to their client. What's happened with cloud now it's not about the transaction upfront it's about the actual, you know, the consumption of the technology and the bringing together all of these to form an outcome, it changes the model dramatically, and quite honestly, the global system integrators like Infosys are in great position because we can pull that together to the benefit of our partners, put our own secret sauce around it and take these solutions to market and drive consumption because that's what the Cloud's all about. >> Right. Well, how are you helping customers really treat Cloud as a strategic focus? You know we often hear companies talk about we're Cloud first. Well not everything belongs in the Cloud. So then we hear companies start talking about being Cloud smart. >> Anant: Yes. How are you helping, and so we'll go with that. How are you helping enterprises really become Cloud smart and where is the partner angle? So we'll start with you and then we'll bring the partner angle in. >> Oh yeah, big time. I think one of the things that we have been educating our customers is Cloud is not about cost takeout. So Cloud is about innovation, Cloud is about growth. And I'll give two examples. One of the beauty products companies they wanted to set up their shop in US and they said that, you know, "we don't have time to basically buy the infrastructure, implement an ERP platform, and you know, or roll it out, test it and go into production. We don't have so much time. Time to market is very important for us." And they embarked on the Cloud journey. So expanding into new market, Cloud can play a big role. That is one of the ways to expand and you know, grow your business. Similarly, there is another company that they wanted to go into retail banking, right? And they didn't have years to launch a product. So they actually use AWS and it's a joint Infosys and AWS customer. A pretty big bank. They launched retail banking and they did it in less than six months. So I think these are some of the examples of cloud not being cost takeout but it's about innovation and growth. So that's what we are trying to tell customers. >> Savannah: Big impacts. >> Big impact. Yes, absolutely. >> And that's where the Cobalt assets come into play as well. You know, as Anant mentioned, we have literally thousands of these industries specific and they're derived in a lot of cases in partnership with the companies you see down the aisles here, and AWS. And it accelerates the deployments and ensures a successful adoption, more so than before. You know, we have clients that are coming to us now that used to buy, run their own procurement. You know they would have... Literally there was one bank that came to us with a over a hundred products >> The amount of work. I'm just seeing it... >> A list of a hundred products. Some they bought directly from a vendor, some they went through a distributor, some they went through a reseller and such, >> Savannah: It's so ad-hoc. And they're looking at this in a completely different way and they're looking to rationalize those technologies, again, look for companies that will contract for a business outcome and leverage the cloud and get to that next era, and it's a fun time. We're really excited. >> I can imagine you're really a part of the transformation process for a lot of these companies. >> Anant: Absolutely. Anant when we were chatting before we went live you talked about your passion for business outcomes. Can you give us a couple examples of customers or business outcomes that really get you and the team excited? Same thing to you David, after. >> Well, absolutely. Even our contractual structures are now moving into business outcomes. So we are getting paid by the outcomes that we are delivering, right? So, one of the insurance customers that we have we actually get paid by the number of claims that we process, right? Similarly there is a healthcare customer where we actually get paid by the number of customers that we cater to from a Medicare and Medicaid standpoint, right? >> Savannah: Tangible results processed and projected-- >> Successful process of claims. >> Interesting. >> Anant: Exactly. >> Yeah. (indistinct) reality. >> Yeah, reality, (chuckles) What a novel idea. >> Yeah. (Savannah and Lisa chuckle) >> One of the great examples you hear about airplane engines now that the model is you don't buy the engine, you basically pay for the hours that it's used, and the maintenance and the downtime, so that you take the risk away. You know, you put that in the context of the traditional business. You're taking away the risk of owning the individual asset, the maintenance, any of the issues, the bug fixes. And again, you're partnering with a company like Infosys, we'll take on that based upon our knowledge and based upon our vast experience we can confidently contract in that way that, you know, years ago that wasn't possible. >> Savannah: It's kind of a sharing economy at scale style. >> David: Exactly. >> Anant: Absolutely. >> Yeah, which is really exciting. So we have a new challenge here on theCUBE this year at re:Invent. We are looking for your 32nd Instagram real sizzle soundbite. Your hot take, your thought leadership on the biggest theme or most important thing coming out of this year's show. David, we'll start with you. We've been starting with Anant, so I'm going to go to you. We're making eye contact right now so you're in the hot seat. (all laugh) >> Well, I think there was a lot of time given to sustainability on the stage this week, and I think that, you know, every CEO that we talk to is bringing that up as a major priority and that's a very important element for us as a company and as a service provider. >> Savannah: I mean, you're obviously award winning in the sustainability department. >> Exactly. Nice little plug there. >> Yeah. >> You know, and I think the other things that have come up we saw a lot about data analytics this week. You know, I think new offerings from AWS but also new partnerships that we're going to take advantage of. And again, security has been a hot topic. >> Absolutely. Anant, what's your hot take? >> Yeah. I think one very exciting thing for partners like us is the re-imagining that is being done by Ruba for the partners, right? The AWS marketplace. I think that is a big, big thing that I took out. Of course, sustainability is huge. Like Adam said, the fastest way to become sustainable is to move to Cloud, right? So rather than overthinking and over-engineering this whole topic just take your workloads and move it to Cloud and you'll be sustainable, right? So I think that's the second one. And third is of course cybersecurity. Zscaler, Palo Alto, CrowdStrike, these are some of the big companies that are at the event here, and we have been partnering with them. Many more. I'm just calling out three names, but many more. I think cybersecurity is the next one. So I think these are three on top of my mind. >> Just a few things you casually think about. That was great. Great responses from both of you Anant, David, such a pleasure to have you both with us. We hope to have you back again. You're doing such exciting things. I'm sure that everything we talked about is going to be a hot topic for many years to come as people navigate the future as well as continue their business transformations. It is always a joy to sit next to you on stage my dear. >> Likewise. And thank all of you, wherever you're tuning in from, for joining us here at AWS re:Invent live from Las Vegas, Nevada. With Lisa Martin, I'm Savannah Peterson, and for the last time today, this is theCUBE, the leader in high tech coverage. (bright, upbeat music playing)

>>Hello, brilliant cloud community and welcome back to AWS Reinvent, where we are live all day every day. From the show floor here in Las Vegas, Nevada. I'm Savannah Peterson, joined by my beautiful cohost Lisa Martin here on the cube. Lisa, you're smiling. You're radiating Day three. You would think it was day one. How you doing? >>Amazing. I can't believe the energy that has been maintained omni show floor since Monday night at 4:00 PM >>I know. And I, I kind of thought today we might see some folks trickling out. It is packed as our, as our guests and I were, we were all just talking about right before the segment, almost two packed, which is a really great sign for aws. It is. We're >>Hearing worth of 55,000 people here. And of course we only get a, a little snapshot of which literally >>This corner, >>We don't get to see anything else around the strip that's going on. So it's massive. Yeah, >>It is a very massive, I'm super excited. We've got two guests from Infosys with us on this last segment from this stage today. David and Anant, welcome to the show. How you doing? >>Awesome. >>You're both smiling and I am really excited. We have our first prop of the show and it's a pretty flashy, sexy prop. Anant, what's going on here? >>Oh, so this is something that we are very proud of. Last year we won one award, which was very special for us because it was our first award with aws and that was the industry partner of the year award. And on the back of that, this year we won three awards. And this is super awesome for us because all of them are very special. One was in collaboration, second was in design, and third was in sustainability. So we are very proud and we thank AWS and it's a fantastic partnership. Yeah. And >>Congratulations. Yes. I mean that's >>Huge. Yes, it's absolutely huge. And the second one is we are the launch partner for msk, which again is a very proud thing for us. So I think those are the two things that we wanted to talk about. >>How many awards are you gonna win next year then? >>Do you want to target more than three? >>So we keep going up probably fine, >>Right? I >>Love, >>That's the odd numbers. 1, 3, 5, 7, 10. There you go. >>Yeah, >>I think you, we got that question last year and we said we get two and we ended up overdelivering with three. So who >>Knows? Hey, nothing. Nothing wrong with the setting the bar low and clearing it and I mean, not setting it low, setting it with one and clearing it with three is pretty fantastic. Yes, yes. We talk about it as an ego thing sometimes with awards and it feels great for internal culture. But David, what does it mean on the partnership side to win awards like that? So >>What's really important for us with our partners is to make sure that we're achieving their goals and when, when their goals are achieved in our partnership, it's just the byproduct that we're achieving our own with our clients. The awards are a great representation of that to see, you know, again, being recognized three in three different categories really shows that we've had success with AWS and in turn, you know, know and not, I can attest to it, we've been very successful with the partnership on our side. >>Yeah. And I bet it's really exciting for the team. Just speaking for energy, are your >>Team sponsor? Absolutely. There's celebration, you know, there's been a few cocktails being raised >>In Las Vegas >>Cocktail. Oh, >>I wouldn't mind one right now to be really be really honest. Let's dig into the, into the product a little bit. Infosys Cobalt, what's the scooping on? >>Yeah, so first of all, we were the first ones to actually launch a cloud brand called Cobalt. Right? We are the first ones in the world. In fact, one of our competitor followed us soon after. So essentially what we did was we brought all our cloud offerings into one brand called Cobalt. It becomes very clear to our customers on what our proposition is. It is very consistent to the market in terms of what our narrative is. And it's little easy for our customers to understand what we bring to the table. So is not one product or one platform. It's a set of services, solutions and platforms that we bring to accelerate customers journey where they're leveraging cloud. So that's what Cobalt is. >>Awesome. Everyone wants to do everything faster. Yes. And Booth was packed. I walked by earlier, it was absolutely buzzing. Yes. >>Yeah. Nobody wants to do it, you know, wants less data slower. Yes. Always more faster. More faster. And we're living in this explosion unlike anything, this swarm of data, unlike anything that we've ever seen before. Yes. Every company, regardless of industry, has to be a data company. Yes. But they have to be able to work with the right partners. Absolutely. To extract, to first of all, harness all that data. Yes. Extract insights in real time. Yes. Because of course, on the consumer side, we're not patient anymore. Yes. We expect a personalized, real time custom experience. Absolutely. How do you work with AWS to help deliver that and how do the partners help deliver that as well? >>Well, I'll start with on the partner side of it. You walk through the hallways here or down the aisles, you see partners like MongoDB, snowflake, data Bricks and and such. They're all attest their commitment and their strong partnership with aws. And coincidentally, they're also very good partners of our own. And as a result, what >>Big happy family here at AWS when you >>Met? Yes, and this, this is something that I'm, I'm calling coining the phrase sub ecosystems. These are partnerships where one is successful with each other and then the three come together and we go together with an integrated solution. And it's really taking off. It's something that's really powerful. The, the fun thing about, you know, reinvent here is it's just that we're having amazing discussions with our clients and aws, but we're also having it with the other partners here about how we can all work together. So, and data analytics is a big one. Security is another hot one. This is huge. >>Yeah. Optimization. >>The absolutely. And I, and Ruba was saying this, right? Ruba said like she was giving example of a marathon or Marathon is not a single man or a single woman sport. Right? So similarly cloud journey is a team's sort of, you know, team journey. Yeah. So that's why partners play a big role in that and that's exactly what we are trying to do. >>So you guys get to see a lot of different companies across a lot of different industries. We've, we're living in very interesting times. How do you see the cloud evolving? >>Oh yeah. So, so what we did when we launched Cobalt in 2020, we have now evolved our story, we call it Cobalt 2.0. And essentially what we want to do was to focus on industry clouds. So it's not just about taking a workload and doing it from point A to point B or moving data to cloud or getting out of data centers, but also being very specific to the industry that this specific customer belongs to. Right? So for example, if you go to banking, they would say, we want to better our security posture. If you go to a retailer, they want to basically have smart stores. If we go to a manufacturing customer, they want to have a smart factory. So we want to make sure that there are specific industry blueprints and specific reference architectures that we bring and start delivering outcomes. So we have, we call it something called, >>I know you're hot on business outcomes. Yes, yes. >>So we call it something called the link of life forces. So there are six technologies, cloud, data Edge, iot, 5g, and ai. They will come together to deliver business outcomes. So that's where we are heading with Cobalt 2.0. And that's essentially what we want to do with our customers. >>That's a lot to think about. Yes. And yeah, go for it. >>David. I just say from a partnering perspective, you know, prior to cloud we were talking about transactional type businesses where if you ask a technology company who their partner is, is generally a reseller where they're just basically taking one product and selling it to their, their client. What's happened with cloud now, it's not about the transaction up front, it's about the, the actual, you know, the consumption of the technology and the bringing together all of these to form an outcome. It changes the model dramatically. And, and quite honestly, you know, the global system integrators like emphasis are in a great position cuz we can pull that together to the benefit our of our partners put our own secret sauce around it and take these solutions to market and drive consumption. Cuz that's what the cloud's all about. >>Absolutely. Right. How are you helping customers really treat cloud as a strategic focus? You know, we, we often hear companies talk about we're we're cloud first. Well, not everything belongs in the cloud. So then we hear companies start talking about being cloud smart. Yes. How are you helping? And so we'll go with that. How are you helping enterprises really become cloud smart and where is the partner angle? So we'll start with you and then we'll bring the partner angle in. >>Sure. Oh yeah, big time. I think one of the things that we have been educating our customers is cloud is not about cost takeout. So cloud is about innovation, cloud is about growth. And I'll give two examples. One of one of the beauty products companies, they wanted to set up their shop in us and they said that, you know, we don't have time to basically buy the infrastructure, implement an er p platform and you know, or roll it out, test it, and go into production. We don't have so much time, time to market is very important for us. And they embarked on the cloud journey. So expanding into new market cloud can play a big role. That is one of the ways to expand and, you know, grow your business. Similarly, there is another company that they, they wanted to get into retail banking, right? And they didn't have years to launch a product. So they actually use AWS and it's a joint infos and AWS customer, a pretty big bank. They launched into, they launched retail banking and they did it in less than six months. So I think these are some of the examples of, wow, it's Snap Cloud not being cost takeout, but it's about innovation and growth. So that's what we are trying to tell >>Customers. Big impacts, big impact. >>Absolutely. And that's where the, the Cobalt assets come into play as well. We, you know, as as not mentioned, we have literally thousand of these industries specific, and they're derived in, in a lot of cases in, in, in partnership with the, the companies you see down the, the aisles here and, and aws. And it accelerates the, the, the deployments and ensures a accessible adoption more so than before. You know, we, we have clients that are coming to us now that used to buy, run their own procurement. You know, they, they would have literally, there was one bank that came to us with a over a hundred, >>The amount of work. Yeah. >>A list of a hundred products. Some they bought directly from a, a vendor, some they went through a distributor, something went through a, a seller and such. And they're, they're, now they're looking at this in a completely different way. And they're looking to rationalize those, those technologies, again, look for companies that will contract for a business outcome and leverage the cloud and get to that next era. And it's, it's a, it's a fun time. We're really excited. >>I can imagine you, you're really a part of the transformation process for a lot of these companies. Absolutely. And when we were chatting before we went live, you talked about your passion for business outcomes. Can you give us a couple examples of customers or business outcomes that really get you and the team excited? Same thing to you, David, after. Yeah, >>Well, absolutely. Even our contractual structures are now moving into business outcomes. So we are getting paid by the outcomes that we are delivering, right? So one of the insurance customers that we have, we actually get paid by the number of claims that we process, right? Similarly, there is a healthcare customer where we actually get paid by the number of customers that we cater to from a Medicare and Medicaid standpoint, right? >>Tangible results versus >>Projected forecast. Successful process of >>Claims. That's interesting. Exactly. Yeah. I love reality. Yeah, reality. What a novel idea. Yeah. >>One of the great examples you hear about airplane engines now that the model is you don't buy the engine. You basically pay for the hours that it's used and the maintenance and the downtime so that they, you take the risk away. You know, you put that in the context of a traditional business, you're taking away the risk of owning the individual asset, the maintenance, any, any of the issues, the bug fixes. And again, you're, you're partnering with a company like Emphasis will take on that based upon our knowledge and based upon our vast experience, we can confidently contract in that way that, you know, years ago that wasn't possible. >>It's kind of a sharing economy at scale style. >>Exactly. Absolutely. >>Yeah. Which is really exciting. So we have a new challenge here on the cube this year at ve We are looking for your 32nd Instagram real sizzle sound bite, your hot take your thought leadership on the, the biggest theme or most important thing coming out of this year's show. David, we'll start with you. We've been starting with it on, I'm to go to you. We're making eye contact right now, so you're in the hot seat. >>Well, let's, I I think there's a lot of time given to sustainability on the stage this week, and I think that, you know, every, every CEO that we talk to is bringing that up as a major priority and that's a very important element for us as a company and as a service >>Provider. I mean, you're obviously award-winning and the sustainability department. Exactly. >>Yes. Nice little plug there. You know, and I, I think the other things that have come up, we saw a lot about data analytics this week. You know, I think new offerings from aws, but also new partnerships that we're gonna take advantage of. And, and again, security has been a hot topic. >>Absolutely. And not, what's your hot take? >>Yeah. I think one, one very exciting thing for partners like us is the, the reimagining that is being done by rhu for the partners, right? The AWS marketplace. I think that is a big, big thing that I took out. Of course, sustainability is huge. Like Adam said, the fastest way to become sustainable is to move to cloud, right? So rather than overthinking and over-engineering this whole topic, just take your workloads and move it to cloud and you'll be sustainable. Right. So I think that's the second one. And third is of course cyber security. Zscaler, Palo Alto, CrowdStrike. These are some of the big companies that are at the event here. And we have been partnering with them many more. I'm just calling out three names, but many more. I think cyber security is the next one. So I think these are three on top of my mind. >>Just, just a few things you casually think about. That was great, great responses from both of you and David, such a pleasure to have you both with us. We hope to have you back again. You're doing such exciting things. I'm sure that everything we talked about is gonna be a hot topic for many years to come as, as people navigate the future, as well as continue their business transformations. It is always a joy to sit next to you on stage. Likewise. Thank you. And thank all of you wherever you're tuning in from. For joining us here at AWS Reinvent Live from Las Vegas, Nevada, with Lisa Martin. I'm Savannah Peterson. And for the last time today, this is the cube, the leader in high tech coverage.

(bright upbeat music) >> Greetings, brilliant community and thank you so much for tuning in to theCUBE here for the last three days where we've been live from Detroit, Michigan. I've had the pleasure of spending this week with Lisa Martin and John Furrier. Thank you both so much for hanging out, for inviting me into the CUBE family. It's our first show together, it's been wonderful. >> Thank you. >> You nailed it. >> Oh thanks, sweetheart. >> Great job. Great job team, well done. Free wall to wall coverage, it's what we do. We stay till everyone else-- >> Savannah: 100 percent. >> Everyone else leaves, till they pull the plug. >> Lisa: Till they turn the lights out. We're still there. >> Literally. >> Literally last night. >> Still broadcasting. >> Whatever takes to get the stories and get 'em out there at scale. >> Yeah. >> Great time. >> 33. 33 different segments too. Very impressive. John, I'm curious, you're a trend watcher and you've been at every single KubeCon. >> Yep. >> What are the trends this year? Give us the breakdown. >> I think CNCF does this, it's a hard job to balance all the stakeholders. So one, congratulations to the CNCF for another great KubeCon and CloudNativeCon. It is really hard to balance bringing in the experts who, as time goes by, seven years we've been all of, as you said, you get experts, you get seniority, and people who can be mentors, 60% new people. You have vendors who are sponsoring and there's always people complaining and bitching and moaning. They want this, they want that. It's always hard and they always do a good job of balancing it. We're lucky that we get to scale the stories with CUBE and that's been great. We had some great stories here, but it's a great community and again, they're inclusive. As I've said before, we've talked about it. This year though is an inflection point in my opinion, because you're seeing the developer ecosystem growing so fast. It's global. You're seeing events pop up, you're seeing derivative events. CNCF is at the center point and they have to maintain the culture of developer experts, maintainers, while balancing the newbies. And that's going to be >> Savannah: Mm-hmm. really hard. And they've done a great job. We had a great conversation with them. So great job. And I think it's going to continue. I think the attendance metric is a little bit of a false positive. There's a lot of online people who didn't come to Detroit this year. And I think maybe the combination of the venue, the city, or just Covid preferences may not look good on paper, on the numbers 'cause it's not a major step up in attendance. It's still bigger, but the community, I think, is going to continue to grow. I'm bullish on it. >> Yeah, I mean at least we did see double the number of people that we had in Los Angeles. Very curious. I think Amsterdam, where we'll be next with CNCF in the spring, in April. I think that's actually going to be a better pulse check. We'll be in Europe, we'll see what's going on. >> John: Totally. >> I mean, who doesn't like Amsterdam in the springtime? Lisa, what have been some of your observations? >> Oh, so many observations. The evolution of the conference, the hallway track conversations really shifting towards adjusting to the enterprise. The enterprise momentum that we saw here as well. We had on the show, Ford. >> Savannah: Yes. We had MassMutual, we had ING, that was today. Home Depot is here. We are seeing all these big companies that we know and love, become software companies right before our eyes. >> Yeah. Well, and I think we forget that software powers our entire world. And so of course they're going to have to be here. So much running on Kubernetes. It's on-prem, it's at the edge, it's everywhere. It's exciting. Woo, I'm excited. John, what do you think is the number one story? This is your question. I love asking you this question. What is the number one story out KubeCon? >> Well, I think the top story is a combination of two things. One is the evolution of Cloud Native. We're starting to see web assembly. That's a big hyped up area. It got a lot of attention. >> Savannah: Yeah. That's kind of teething out the future. >> Savannah: Rightfully so. The future of this kind of lightweight. You got the heavy duty VMs, you got Kubernetes and containers, and now this web assembly, shows a trajectory of apps, server-like environment. And then the big story is security. Software supply chain is, to me, was the number one consistent theme. At almost all the interviews, in the containers, and the workflows, >> Savannah: Very hot. software supply chain is real. The CD Foundation mentioned >> Savannah: Mm-hmm. >> they had 16,000 vulnerabilities identified in their code base. They were going to automate that. So again, >> Savannah: That was wild. >> That's the top story. The growth of open source exposes potential vulnerabilities with security. So software supply chain gets my vote. >> Did you hear anything that surprised you? You guys did this great preview of what you thought we were going to hear and see and feel and touch at KubeCon, CloudNativeCon 2022. You talked about, for example, the, you know, healthcare financial services being early adopters of this. Anything surprise either one of you in terms of what you predicted versus what we saw? Savannah, let's start with you. >> You know what really surprised me, and this is ironic, so I'm a community gal by trade. But I was really just impressed by the energy that everyone brought here and the desire to help. The thing about the open source community that always strikes me is, I mean 187 different countries participating. You've got, I believe it's something like 175,000 people contributing to the 140 projects plus that CNCF is working on. But that culture of collaboration extends far beyond just the CNCF projects. Everyone here is keen to help each other. We had the conversation just before about the teaching and the learnings that are going on here. They brought in Detroit's students to come and learn, which is just the most heartwarming story out of this entire thing. And I think it's just the authenticity of everyone in this community and their passion. Even though I know it's here, it still surprises me to see it in the flesh. Especially in a place like Detroit. >> It's nice. >> Yeah. >> It's so nice to see it. And you bring up a good point. It's very authentic. >> Savannah: It's super authentic. >> I mean, what surprised me is one, the Wasm, or web assembly. I didn't see that coming at the scale of the conversation. It sucked a lot of options out of the room in my opinion, still hyped up. But this looks like it's got a good trajectory. I like that. The other thing that surprised me that was a learning was my interview with Solo.io, Idit, and Brian Gracely, because he's a CUBE alumni and former host of theCUBE, and analyst at Wikibon, was how their go-to-market was an example of a modern company in Covid with a clean sheet of paper and smart people, they're just doing things different. They're in Slack with their customers. And I walked away with, "Wow that's like a playbook that's not, was never, in the go-to-market VC-backed company playbook." I thought that was, for me, a personal walk away saying that's important. I like how they did that. And there's a lot of companies I think could learn from that. Especially as the recession comes where partnering with customers has always been a top priority. And how they did that was very clever, very effective, very efficient. So I walked away with that saying, "I think that's going to be a standard." So that was a pleasant surprise. >> That was a great surprise. Also, that's a female-founded company, which is obviously not super common. And the growth that they've experienced, to your point, really being catalyzed by Covid, is incredibly impressive. I mean they have some massive brand name customers, Amex, BMW for example. >> Savannah: Yeah. >> Great point. >> And I interviewed her years ago and I remember saying to myself, "Wow, she's impressive." I liked her. She's a player. A player for sure. And she's got confidence. Even on the interview she said, "We're just better, we have better product." And I just like the point of view. Very customer-focused but confident. And I just took, that's again, a great company. And again, I'm not surprised that Brian Gracely left Red Hat to go work there. So yeah, great, great call there. And of course other things that weren't surprising that I predicted, Red Hat continued to invest. They continue to bring people on theCUBE, they support theCUBE but more importantly they have a good strategy. They're in that multicloud positioning. They're going to have an opportunity to get a bite at the apple. And I what I call the supercloud. As enterprises try to go and be mainstream, Cloud Native, they're going to need some help. And Red Hat is always has the large enterprise customers. >> Savannah: What surprised you, Lisa? >> Oh my gosh, so many things. I think some of the memorable conversations that we had. I love talking with some of the enterprises that we mentioned, ING Bank for example. You know, or institutions that have been around for 100 plus years. >> Savannah: Oh, yeah. To see not only how much they've innovated and stayed relevant to meet the demands of the consumer, which are only increasing, but they're doing so while fostering a culture of innovation and a culture that allows these technology leaders to really grow within the organization. That was a really refreshing conversation that I think we had. 'Cause you can kind of >> Savannah: Absolutely. think about these old stodgy companies. Nah, of course they're going to digitize. >> Thinking about working for the bank, I think it's boring. >> Right? >> Yeah. And they were talking about, in fact, those great t-shirts that they had on, >> Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. were all about getting more people to understand how fun it is to work in tech for ING Bank in different industries. You don't just have to work for the big tech companies to be doing really cool stuff in technology. >> What I really liked about this show is we had two female hosts. >> Savannah: Yeah. >> How about that? Come on. >> Hey, well done, well done on your recruitment there, champ. >> Yes, thank you boss. (John laughs) >> And not to mention we have a really all-star production team. I do just want to give them a little shout out. To all the wonderful folks behind the lines here. (people clapping) >> John: Brendan. Good job. >> Yeah. Without Brendan, Anderson, Noah, and Andrew, we would be-- >> Of course Frank Faye holding it back there too. >> Yeah, >> Of course, Frank. >> I mean, without the business development wheels on the ship we'd really be in an unfortunate spot. I almost just swore on television. We're not going to do that. >> It's okay. No one's regulating. >> Yeah. (all laugh) >> Elon Musk just took over Twitter. >> It was a close call. >> That's right! >> It's going to be a hellscape. >> Yeah, I mean it's, shit's on fire. So we'll just see what happens next. I do, I really want to talk about this because I think it's really special. It's an ethos and some magic has happened here. Let's talk about Detroit. Let's talk about what it means to be here. We saw so many, and I can't stress this enough, but I think it really matters. There was a commitment to celebrating place here. Lisa, did you notice this too? >> Absolutely. And it surprised me because we just don't see that at conferences. >> Yeah. We're so used to going to the same places. >> Right. >> Vegas. Vegas, Vegas. More Vegas. >> Your tone-- >> San Francisco >> (both laugh) sums up my feelings. Yes. >> Right? >> Yeah. And, well, it's almost robotic but, and the fact that we're like, oh Detroit, really? But there was so much love for this city and recognizing and supporting its residents that we just don't see at conferences. You uncovered a lot of that with your swag-savvy segments, >> Savannah: Yeah. >> And you got more of that to talk about today. >> Don't worry, it's coming. Yeah. (laughs) >> What about you? Have you enjoyed Detroit? I know you hadn't been here in a long time, when we did our intro session. >> I think it's a bold move for the CNCF to come here and celebrate. What they did, from teaching the kids in the city some tech, they had a session. I thought that was good. >> Savannah: Loved that. I think it was a risky move because a lot of people, like, weren't sure if they were going to fly to Detroit. So some say it might impact the attendance. I thought they did a good job. Their theme, Road Ahead. Nice tie in. >> Savannah: Yeah. And so I think I enjoyed Detroit. The weather was great. It didn't rain. Nice breeze outside. >> Yeah. >> The weather was great, the restaurants are phenomenal. So Detroit's a good city. I missed some hockey games. I'd love to see the Red Wings play. Missed that game. But we always come back. >> I think it's really special. I mean, every time I talked to a company about their swag, that had sourced it locally, there was a real reason for this story. I mean even with Kasten in that last segment when I noticed that they had done Carhartt beanies, Carhartt being a Michigan company. They said, "I'm so glad you noticed. That's why we did it." And I think that type of, the community commitment to place, it all comes back to community. One of the bigger themes of the show. But that passion and that support, we need more of that. >> Lisa: Yeah. >> And the thing about the guests we've had this past three days have been phenomenal. We had a diverse set of companies, individuals come on theCUBE, you know, from Scott Johnston at Docker. A really one on one. We had a great intense conversation. >> Savannah: Great way to kick it off. >> We shared a lot of inside baseball, about Docker, super important company. You know, impressed with companies like Platform9 it's been around since the OpenStack days who are now in a relevant position. Rafi Systems, hot startup, they don't have a lot of resources, a lot of guerilla marketing going on. So I love to see the mix of startups really contributing. The big players are here. So it's a real great mix of companies. And I thought the interviews were phenomenal, like you said, Ford. We had, Kubia launched on theCUBE. >> Savannah: Yes. >> That's-- >> We snooped the location for KubeCon North America. >> You did? >> Chicago, everyone. In case you missed it, Bianca was nice enough to share that with us. >> We had Sarbjeet Johal, CUBE analyst came on, Keith Townsend, yesterday with you guys. >> We had like analyst speed dating last night. (all laugh) >> How'd that go? (laughs) >> It was actually great. One of the things that they-- >> Did they hug and kiss at the end? >> Here's the funny thing is that they were debating the size of the CNC app. One thinks it's too big, one thinks it's too small. And I thought, is John Goldilocks? (John laughs) >> Savannah: Yeah. >> What is John going to think about that? >> Well I loved that segment. I thought, 'cause Keith and Sarbjeet argue with each other on Twitter all the time. And I heard Keith say before, he went, "Yeah let's have it out on theCUBE." So that was fun to watch. >> Thank you for creating this forum for us to have that kind of discourse. >> Lisa: Yes, thank you. >> Well, it wouldn't be possible without the sponsors. Want to thank the CNCF. >> Absolutely. >> And all the ecosystem partners and sponsors that make theCUBE possible. We love doing this. We love getting the stories. No story's too small for theCUBE. We'll go with it. Do whatever it takes. And if it wasn't for the sponsors, the community wouldn't get all the great knowledge. So, and thank you guys. >> Hey. Yeah, we're, we're happy to be here. Speaking of sponsors and vendors, should we talk a little swag? >> Yeah. >> What do you guys think? All right. Okay. So now this is becoming a tradition on theCUBE so I'm very delighted, the savvy swag segment. I do think it's interesting though. I mean, it's not, this isn't just me shouting out folks and showing off t-shirts and socks. It's about standing out from the noise. There's a lot of players in this space. We got a lot of CNCF projects and one of the ways to catch the attention of people walking the show floor is to have interesting swag. So we looked for the most unique swag on Wednesday and I hadn't found this yet, but I do just want to bring it up. Oops, I think I might have just dropped it. This is cute. Is, most random swag of the entire show goes to this toothbrush. I don't really have more in terms of the pitch there because this is just random. (Lisa laughs) >> But so, everyone needs that. >> John: So what's their tagline? >> And you forget these. >> Yeah, so the idea was to brush your cloud bills. So I think they're reducing the cost of-- >> Kind of a hygiene angle. >> Yeah, yeah. Very much a hygiene angle, which I found a little ironic in this crowd to be completely honest with you. >> John: Don't leave the lights on theCUBE. That's what they say. >> Yeah. >> I mean we are theCUBE so it would be unjust of me not to show you a Rubik's cube. This is actually one of those speed cubes. I'm not going to be able to solve this for you with one hand on camera, but apparently someone did it in 17 seconds at the booth. Knowing this audience, not surprising to me at all. Today we are, and yesterday, was the t-shirt contest. Best t-shirt contest. Today we really dove into the socks. So this is, I noticed this trend at KubeCon in Los Angeles last year. Lots of different socks, clouds obviously a theme for the cloud. I'm just going to lay these out. Lots of gamers in the house. Not surprising. Here on this one. >> John: Level up. >> Got to level up. I love these 'cause they say, "It's not a bug." And anyone who's coded has obviously had to deal with that. We've got, so Star Wars is a huge theme here. There's Lego sets. >> John: I think it's Star Trek. But. >> That's Star Trek? >> John: That's okay. >> Could be both. (Lisa laughs) >> John: Nevermind, I don't want to. >> You can flex your nerd and geek with us anytime you want, John. I don't mind getting corrected. I'm all about, I'm all about the truth. >> Star Trek. Star Wars. Okay, we're all the same. Okay, go ahead. >> Yeah, no, no, this is great. Slim.ai was nice enough to host us for dinner on Tuesday night. These are their lovely cloud socks. You can see Cloud Native, obviously Cloud Native Foundation, cloud socks, whole theme here. But if we're going to narrow it down to some champions, I love these little bee elephants from Raft. And when I went up to these guys, I actually probably would've called these my personal winner. They said, again, so community focused and humble here at CNCF, they said that Wiz was actually the champion according to the community. These unicorn socks are pretty excellent. And I have to say the branding is flawless. So we'll go ahead and give Wiz the win on the best sock contest. >> John: For the win. >> Yeah, Wiz for the win. However, the thing that I am probably going to use the most is this really dope Detroit snapback from Kasten. So I'm going to be rocking this from now on for the rest of the segment as well. And I feel great about this snapback. >> Looks great. Looks good on you. >> Yeah. >> Thanks John. (John laughs) >> So what are we expecting between now and KubeCon in Amsterdam? >> Well, I think it's going to be great to see how they, the European side, it's a chill show. It's great. Brings in the European audience from the global perspective. I always love the EU shows because one, it's a great destination. Amsterdam's going to be a great location. >> Savannah: I'm pumped. >> The American crowd loves going over there. All the event cities that they choose are always awesome. I missed Valencia cause I got Covid. I'm really bummed about that. But I love the European shows. It's just a little bit, it's high intensity, but it's the European chill. They got a little bit more of that siesta vibe going on. >> Yeah. >> And it's just awesome. >> Yeah, >> And I think that the mojo that carried throughout this week, it's really challenging to not only have a show that's five days, >> but to go through all week, >> Savannah: Seriously. >> to a Friday at 4:00 PM Eastern Time, and still have the people here, the energy and all the collaboration. >> Savannah: Yeah. >> The conversations that are still happening. I think we're going to see a lot more innovation come spring 2023. >> Savannah: Mm-hmm. >> Yeah. >> So should we do a bet, somebody's got to buy dinner? Who, well, I guess the folks who lose this will buy dinner for the other one. How many attendees do you think we'll see in Amsterdam? So we had 4,000, >> Oh, I'm going to lose this one. >> roughly in Los Angeles. Priyanka was nice enough to share with us, there was 8,000 here in Detroit. And I'm talking in person, we're not going to meddle this with the online. >> 6500. >> Lisa: I was going to say six, six K. >> I'm going 12,000. >> Ooh! >> I'm going to go ahead and go big I'm going to go opposite Price Is Right. >> One dollar. >> Yeah. (all laugh) That's exactly where I was driving with it. I'm going, I'm going absolutely all in. I think the momentum here is building. I think if we look at the numbers from-- >> John: You could go Family Feud >> Yeah, yeah, exactly. And they mentioned that they had 11,000 people who have taken their Kubernetes course in that first year. If that's a benchmark and an indicator, we've got the veteran players here. But I do think that, I personally think that the hype of Kubernetes has actually preceded adoption. If you look at the data and now we're finally tipping over. I think the last two years we were on the fringe and right now we're there. It's great. (voice blares loudly on loudspeaker) >> Well, on that note (all laugh) On that note, actually, on that note, as we are talking, so I got to give cred to my cohosts. We deal with a lot of background noise here on theCUBE. It is a live show floor. There's literally someone on an e-scooter behind me. There's been Pong going on in the background. The sound will haunt the three of us for the rest of our lives, as well as the production crew. (Lisa laughs) And, and just as we're sitting here doing this segment last night, they turned the lights off on us, today they're letting everyone know that the event is over. So on that note, I just want to say, Lisa, thank you so much. Such a warm welcome to the team. >> Thank you. >> John, what would we do without you? >> You did an amazing job. First CUBE, three days. It's a big show. You got staying power, I got to say. >> Lisa: Absolutely. >> Look at that. Not bad. >> You said it on camera now. >> Not bad. >> So you all are stuck with me. (all laugh) >> A plus. Great job to the team. Again, we do so much flow here. Brandon, Team, Andrew, Noah, Anderson, Frank. >> They're doing our hair, they're touching up makeup. They're helping me clean my teeth, staying hydrated. >> We look good because of you. >> And the guests. Thanks for coming on and spending time with us. And of course the sponsors, again, we can't do it without the sponsors. If you're watching this and you're a sponsor, support theCUBE, it helps people get what they need. And also we're do a lot more segments around community and a lot more educational stuff. >> Savannah: Yeah. So we're going to do a lot more in the EU and beyond. So thank you. >> Yeah, thank you. And thank you to everyone. Thank you to the community, thank you to theCUBE community and thank you for tuning in, making it possible for us to have somebody to talk to on the other side of the camera. My name is Savannah Peterson for the last time in Detroit, Michigan. Thanks for tuning into theCUBE. >> Okay, we're done. (bright upbeat music)

The Cube Presents UI Path Forward five. Brought to you by UI Path. >>I Ready, Dave Ante with David Nicholson. We're back at UI Path forward. Five. We're getting ready for the big guns to come in, the two co CEOs, but we have a really special analyst panel now. We're excited to have Daniel Newman here. He's the Principal analyst at Future and Research. And Andy Dai, who's the Vice president and Principal Analyst at Constellation Research. Guys, good to see you. Thanks for making some time to come on the queue. >>Glad to be here. Always >>Good. So, >>Andy, you're deep into ai. You and I have been talking about having you come to our maor office. I'm, I'm really excited that we're able to meet here. What have you seen at the show so far? What are your big takeaways? You know, day one and a half? >>Yeah, well, so first of all, I'm d AI because my last name has AI and I >>Already talk about, >>So, but, but all jokes aside, there are a lot of good things I heard from the conference, right? I mean, one is the last two years because of the pandemic, the growth has been phenomenal for, for a lot of those robotic automation intelligent automation companies, right? So because the low hanging through position making processes have been already taken care of where they going to find the next growth spot, right? That was the question I was looking answers to. And they have some inverse, one good acquisition. They had intelligent document processing, but more importantly they're trying to move from detrimental rules based RPA automation into AI based, more probabilistic subjective decision making areas. That's a huge market, tons of money involved in it, but it's going to be a harder problem to solve. Love to see the execut. >>Well, it's also a big pivot for the, for the company. It started out as sort of a a point product and now is moving to, to platform. But to end of the macro is not in UI pass favor. It's not really in any, you know, tech company's favor, but especially, you know, a company that's going into a transition transitioning to go to market cetera. What are you seeing, what's your take on the macro? I mean, I know you follow the financial markets very closely. There's a lot of negative sentiment right now. Are you as negative as the sentiment? >>Well, the, the broad sentiment comes with some pretty good historical data, right? We've had probably one of the worst market years in multiple decades. And of course we're coming into a situation where all the, the factors are really not in our favor. You've got in interest rates climbing, you've got wildly high inflation, you've had a, you know, helicopters dumping money on the economy for a period of time. And we're, we're gonna get into this great reset is what I keep talking about. But, you know, I had the opportunity to talk to Bill McDermott recently on one of my shows and Bill's CEO of ServiceNow, in case anybody there doesn't know, but >>Former, >>Yeah, really well spoken guy. But you know, him and I kind of went back and forth and we came up with this kind of concept that we were gonna have to tech our way out of what's about to come. You can almost be certain recession is gonna come. But for companies like UiPath, I actually think there's a tremendous opportunity because the bottom line is companies are gonna be looking at their bottom line. A year ago it was all about growth a deal, like the Adobe Figma deal would've been, been lauded, people would've been excited. Now everybody's looking at going, how are they paying that price? Everybody's discounting the future growth. They're looking at the situation, say, what's gonna happen next? Well, bottom line is now they're looking at that. How profitable are we? Are you making money? Are you growing that bottom line? Are you creating earnings? We're >>Gonna come in >>Era, we're gonna come into an era where companies are gonna say, you know what? People are expensive. The inflationary cost of hiring is expensive. You know, what's less expensive? Investing in the cloud, investing in ai, investing in workflow and automation and things that actually enable businesses to expand, keep costs somewhat contained fixed costs, and scale their businesses and get themselves in a good position for when the economy turns to return to >>Grow. So since prior to the pandemic cloud containers, m l and RPA slash automation have been the big four that from a spending data standpoint have been above the line above all kind of the rest in terms of spending momentum up until last quarter, AI and RPA slash automation declined. So my question is, are those two areas discretionary or more discretionary than other technology investments you heard? >>Well, I, I think we're in a, a period where companies are, I won't say they've stopped spending, but you listened to Mark Benioff, you talked about the elongated sales cycle, right? I think companies right now are being very reflective and they're doing a lot of introspection. They're looking at their business and saying, We hired a lot of people. We hired really fast. Do we need to cut? Do we need to freeze? We've made investments in technology, are we getting a return on 'em? We all know that the analytics, whether it's you know, digital adoption platforms or just analytics in the business, say, What is all this money we've been spending doing for us and how productive are we? But I will tell you universally, the companies are looking at workflow automations that enable things. Whether that's onboarding customers, whether that's delivering experiences, whether that's, you know, full, you know, price to quote technologies, automate, automate, automate. By doing that, they're gonna bring down the cost, they're gonna control themselves as best as possible in a tough macro. And then when they come out of it, these processes are gonna be beneficiary in a, in a growth environment even more so, >>Andy UiPath rocketed to a leadership position, largely due to the, the product and the simplicity of the product relative to the competition. And then as you well know, they expanded into, you know, platform. So how do you see the competitive environment? A UI path is again focusing on that platform play Automation Anywhere couldn't get to public market. They had turnover at the go to market level. Chris Riley joined a lot of, lot of hope left Microsoft joined into the fray, obviously is having an impact that you're certainly seeing spending momentum around Microsoft. Then SAP service Now Salesforce, every software company the planet thinks they should get every dollar spent on software. You know, they, they see UI pass momentum and they say, Hey, we can, we can take some of that off the table. How do you see the competitive environment right now? >>So first of all, in in my mind, UI path is slightly better because of a couple of reasons. One, as you said, it's ease of use. >>They're able to customize it variable to what they want. So that's a real easy development advantage. And then the, when you develop the bots and equal, it takes on an average anywhere between two to maybe six weeks, generally speaking, in some industries regulated government might take more so that it's faster, quicker, easier than others in a sense. So people love using that. The second advantage of what they have in my mind is that not only they are available as a managed SA solution on, on cloud, on Azure Cloud, but also they have this version that you can install, maintain, manage any way you want, whether it's a public cloud or, or your own data center and so on so forth. That's not available with almost, not all of them have it, Few have it, but not all of the competitors have it. So they have an advantage there as well. Where it could become useful would be one of the areas that they haven't even expanded is the government. >>Government is the what, >>Sorry? The government. Yeah, related solutions, right? Defense, government, all of those areas when you go, which haven't even started for various reasons. For example, they're worried about laying off people, worried about cost, worried about automating things. There's a lot of hurdles to overcome. But once you overcome that, if you want to go there, nobody's going to use, or most of them will be very of using something on the cloud. So they have a solution for version variation of that. So they are set up to come to that next level. I mean, I don't know if you guys were at the keynote, the CEO talked about how their plans to go from 1 billion to 5 billion in ar. So they're set up to capture the market. But again, as you said, every big software company saw their momentum, they want to get into it, they want to compete with them. So >>Well, to get to 5 billion, they've gotta accelerate growth. I mean, if you do 20% cer over the next, you know, through the end of the decade, they don't quite get there. So they're gonna have to, you know, they lowered their forecast out of the high 20 or mid twenties to 18%. They're gonna have to accelerate that. And we've seen that before. We see it in cloud where cloud, you know, accelerates growth even though you got the lower large numbers. Go ahead Dave. >>Yeah, so Daniel, then how do we, how do we think of this market? How do we measure the TAM for total addressable market for automation? I mean, you know, what's that? What's that metric that shows how unautomated are we, how inefficient are we? Is there a, is there a 5% efficiency that can be gained? Is there a 40% efficiency that can be gained? Because if you're talking about, you know, how much much of the market can UI path capture, first of all, how big is the market? And then is UI path poised to take advantage of that compared to the actual purveyors of the software that people are interacting with? I'm interacting with an E R p, an ER P system that has built into it the ability to automate processes. Then why do I need 'EM UI path? So first, how do you evaluate TAM? Second, how do you evaluate whether UI Path is gonna have a chance in this market where RPAs built into the applications that we actually use? Yeah, >>I think that TAM is evolving, and I don't have it in front of me right now, but what I'll tell you about the TAM is there's sort of the legacy RPA tam and then there's what I would sort of evolve to call the IPA and workflow automation tam that is being addressed by many of these software companies that you asked in the competitive equation. In the, in the, in the question, what we're seeing is a world where companies are gonna say, if we can automate it, we will automate it. That's, it's actually non-negotiable. Now, the process in the ability to a arrive at automation at scale has long been a battle front within the nor every organization. We've been able to automate things for a long time. Why has it more been done? It's the same thing with analytics. There's been numerous studies in analytics that have basically shown companies that have been able to embrace, adopt, and implement analytics, have significantly better performances, better performances on revenue growth, better performances and operational cost management, better performances with customer experience. >>Guess what? Not everybody, every company can get to this. Now there's a couple of things behind this and I'm gonna, I'm gonna try to close my answer out cause I'm getting a little long winded here. But the first thing is automation is a cultural challenge in most organizations. We've done endless research on companies digitally transforming and automating their business. And what we've found is largely the technology are somewhat comparable. Meaning, you know, I, I've heard what he is saying about some of the advantages of partnership with Microsoft, very compelling. But you know what, all these companies that have automation offerings, whether it's you know, through a Salesforce, Microsoft, whether it's a specialized rpa like an Automation Anywhere or a UI path, their solutions can be deployed and successful. The company's ability to take the investment, implement it successfully and get buy in across the organization tends to always be the hurdle. An old CIO stat, 50% of IT projects fail. That stat is still almost accurate today. It's not 50% of technology is bad, but those failures are because the culture doesn't get behind it. And automation's a tricky one because there's a lot of people that feel on the outside rather than the inside of an automation transformation. >>So, Andy, so how do you think about the, to Dave's question, the SAPs the service nows trying to, you know, at least take some red crumbs off the table. They, they're gonna, they're gonna create these automation stove pipes, but in Automation Anywhere or, or UI path is a horizontal play, are they not? And so how do you think about that progression? Well, so >>First of all, all of this other companies, when they, they, whether it's a build, acquire, what have you, these guys already have what, five, seven years on them. So it's gonna be difficult for them to catch up with the Center of Excellence knowledge on the use cases, what they got to catch up with them. That's gonna be a lot of catch up. Just to give you an idea, Microsoft Power Automate has been there for a while, right? They're supposedly doing well as well, but they still choose to partner with the UiPath as well to get them to the next level. So there's going to be competition coming from all areas, but it's, it's about, you know, highlights. >>So, so who is the competition? Is it Microsoft chipping away an individual productivity? Is it a service now? Who's got a platform play? Is it themselves just being able to execute >>All plus also, but I think the, the most, I wouldn't say competition, but it's more people are not aware of what areas need to be automated, right? For example, one of the things I was talking about with a couple of customers is, so they have a automation hub where you can put the, the process and and task that need to be automated and then you prioritize and start working on it. And, and almost all of them that I speak to, they keep saying that most of the process and task identification that they need to do for automation, it's manual right now. So, which means it's limited, you have to go and execute it. When people find out and tell you that's what need to be fixed, you try to go and fix that. But imagine if there is a way, I mean the have solutions they're showcasing now if it becomes popular, if you're able to identify tasks that are very inefficient or or process that's very inefficient, automatically score them up saying that, you know what, this is what is going to be ROI and you execute on it. That's going to be huge. So >>I think ts right, there's no shortage of, of a market. I would, I would agree with you Rob Sland this morning talked about the progression. He sort of compared it to e R P of the early days. I sort of have a love hate with E R P cuz of the complexity of the implementation and the, and the cost. However, first of all, a couple points and I love to get your thoughts for you. If you went back, I know 25 years, you, you wouldn't have been able to pick SAP out of a lineup and say that's gonna be the leader in E R P and they ended up, you know, doing really, really well. But the more interesting angle is if you could have figured out the customers that were implementing e r p in, in a really high quality fashion, those are the companies that really did well. You buy their stocks, they really took off cuz they were killing their other industry competitors. So, fast forward to automation. Will automation live up to its hype and your opinion, will it be as transformative and will the, the practitioners of automation see the same type of uplift in their markets, in their market caps, in their competitiveness as did sort of the early adopters and the excellent adopters of brp? What are your thoughts? Well, >>I think it's an interesting comparison. Maybe answer it slightly different way. I think the future is that automation is a non-negotiable in every enterprise organization. I think if you're a large organization, we have absolutely filled our, our organizations with waste too much overhead, too much expense, too much technical debt and automation is an answer. This is the way we want to interact, right? We want a chat bot that actually gives us good answers that can answer on a Tuesday at 11:00 PM at night when we want to know if the right dog food, you know, and I'm saying that, you know, that's what we want. That's the outcome we want. And businesses have to be driven by the outcome. Here's what I'm not sure about, Dave, is we have an era where over the last three to five years, a lot of products have become companies and a lot of 'EM products became companies ended up in public markets. >>And so the RPA space is one of those areas that got this explosive amount of growth. And you look at it and there's two ways. Is this horizontally a business rpa or is this going to be something that's gonna be a target of those Microsofts and those SAPs and say, Look, we need hyper automation to be deeply integrated at the E R P crm, hcm SCM level. We're gonna build by this or we're gonna build this. And you're already hearing it in the partnerships, but this is how I think the story ends. I I think either the companies like UiPath get much bigger, they get much more rounded in their, in their offerings. Or you're gonna have a large company like a Microsoft come in and say, you know what? Buy it rather >>Than build can they can, they can, can this company, maybe not so much here, but can a company like Automation Anywhere stay acquisition? Well, >>I use the, I use the Service now as an, as a parallel because they're a company that I thought would always end up inside of a bigger company and now you're like, I think they're too big. I think they've they've dropped >>That, that chart. Yeah, they're acquisition proof. I would agree. But these guys aren't yet Nora's automation. They work for >>A while and it's not necessarily a bad thing. Sometimes getting bit bought is good, but what I mean is it's gonna be core and these big companies know it cuz they're all talking >>About, but as independent analysts, we want to see independent companies. >>I wanna see the right thing. >>It just makes it fun. >>The right thing >>Customers. Yeah, but you know, okay, Oracle buy more customers, more >>Customers. >>I'm kidding. Yeah, I guess it's the right thing. It just makes it more fun when you have really good independent competitors that >>We >>Absolutely so, and, and spend way more on r and d than these big companies who spend a lot more on stock buyback. But I know you gotta go. Thanks so much for spending some time, making time for Cube Andy. Great to see you. Good to see as well. All right, we are wrapping up day one, Dave Blan and Dave Nicholson live. You can hear the action behind us, forward in five on the Cube, right back.

(digital music) >> And we're back live in New York. It's theCUBE. It's not SNL, it's better than SNL. Lisa Martin and John Furrier here with about 10,000 to 12,000 folks. (John chuckles) There is a ton of energy here. There's a ton of interest in what's going on. But one of the things that we know that AWS is really well-known for is its massive ecosystem. And one of its ecosystem partners is joining us. Please welcome Domenic Ravita, the VP of Product Marketing from SingleStore. Dominic, great to have you on the program. >> Well, thank you. Glad to be here. >> It's a nice opening, wasn't it? (Lisa and John laughing) >> I love SNL. Who doesn't? >> Right? I know. So some big news came out today. >> Yes. >> Funding. Good number. Talk to us a little bit about that before we dig in to SingleStore and what you guys are doing with AWS. >> Right, yeah. Thank you. We announced this morning our latest round, 116 million. We're really grateful to our customers and our investors and the partners and employees and making SingleStore a success to go on this journey of, really, to fulfill our mission to unify and simplify modern, real time data. >> So talk to us about SingleStore. Give us the value prop, the key differentiators, 'cause obviously customers have choice. Help us understand where you're nailing it. >> SingleStore is all about, what we like to say, the moments that matter. When you have an analytical question about what's happening in the moment, SingleStore is your best way to solve that cost-effectively. So that is for, in the case of Thorn, where they're helping to protect and save children from online trafficking or in the case of True Digital, which early in the pandemic, was a company in Southeast Asia that used anonymized phone pings to identify real time population density changes and movements across Thailand to have a proactive response. So really real time data in the moment can help to save lives quite literally. But also it does things that are just good commercially that gives you an advantage like what we do with Uber to help real time pricing and things like this. >> It's interesting this data intensity happening right now. We were talking earlier on theCUBE with another guest and we said, "Why is it happening now?" The big data has been around since the dupe days. That was hard to work with, then data lakes kicked in. But we seem to be, in the past year, everyone's now aware like, "Wow, I got a lot of data." Is it the pandemic? Now we're seeing customers understand the consequences. So how do you look at that? Because is it just timing, evolution? Are they now getting it or is the technology better? Is machine learning better? What's the forces driving the massive data growth acceleration in terms of implementing and getting stuff out, done? (chuckles) >> We think it's the confluence of a lot of those things you mentioned there. First of all, we just celebrate the 15-year anniversary of the iPhone, so that is like wallpaper now. It's just faded into our daily lives. We don't even think of that as a separate thing. So there's an expectation that we all have instant information and not just for the consumer interactions, for the business interactions. That permeates everything. I think COVID with the pandemic forced everyone, every business to try to move to digital first and so that put pressure on the digital service economy to mature even faster and to be digital first. That is what drives what we call data intensity. And more generally, the economic phenomenon is the data intensive era. It's a continuous competition and game for customers. In every moment in every location, in every dimension, the more data hat you have, the better value prop you can give. And so SingleStore is uniquely positioned to and focused on solving this problem of data intensity by bringing and unifying data together. >> What's the big customer success story? Can you share any examples that highlight that? What are some cool things that are happening that can illustrate this new, I won't say bit that's been flipped, that's been happening for a while, but can you share some cutting edge customer successes? >> It's happening across a lot of industries. So I would say first in financial services, FinTech. FinTech is always at the leading edge of these kind of technology adaptions for speeds and things like that. So we have a customer named IEX Cloud and they're focused on providing real time financial data as an API. So it's a data product, API-first. They're providing a lot of historical information on instruments and that sort of thing, as well as real time trending information. So they have customers like Seeking Alpha, for instance, who are providing real time updates on massive, massive data sets. They looked at lots of different ways to do this and there's the traditional, transactionals, LTP database and then maybe if you want to scale an API like theirs, you might have a separate end-memory cache and then yet another database for analytics. And so we bring all that together and simplify that and the benefit of simplification, but it's also this unification and lower latency. Another example is GE who basically uses us to bring together lots of financial information to provide quicker close to the end-of-month process across many different systems. >> So we think about special purpose databases, you mentioned one of the customers having those. We were in the keynote this morning where AWS is like, "We have the broadest set of special purpose databases," but you're saying the industry can't afford them anymore. Why and would it make SingleStore unique in terms of what you deliver? >> It goes back to this data intensity, in that the new business models that are coming out now are all about giving you this instant context and that's all data-driven and it's digital and it's also analytical. And so the reason that's you can't afford to do this, otherwise, is data's getting so big. Moving that data gets expensive, 'cause in the cloud you pay for every byte you store, every byte you process, every byte you move. So data movement is a cost in dollars and cents. It's a cost in time. It's also a cost in skill sets. So when you have many different specialized data sets or data-based technologies, you need skilled people to manage those. So that's why we think the industry needs to be simplified and then that's why you're seeing this unification trend across the database industry and other parts of the stack happening. With AWS, I mean, they've been a great partner of ours for years since we launched our first cloud database product and their perspective is a little bit different. They're offering choice of the specialty, 'cause many people build this way. But if you're going after real time data, you need to bring it. They also offer a SingleStore as a service on AWS. We offer it that way. It's in the AWS Marketplace. So it's easily consumable that way. >> Access to real time data is no longer a nice-to-have for any company, it's table stakes. We saw that especially in the last 20 months or so with companies that needed to pivot so quickly. What is it about SingleStore that delivers, that you talked about moments that matter? Talk about the access to real time data. How that's a differentiator as well? >> I think businesses need to be where their customers are and in the moments their customers are interacting. So that is the real time business-driver. As far as technology wise, it's not easy to do this. And you think about what makes a database fast? A major way of what makes it fast is how you store the data. And so since 2014, when we first released this, what Gartner called at the time, hybrid transaction/analytical processing or HTAP, where we brought transactional data and analytical data together. Fast forward five years to 2019, we released this innovation called Universal Storage, which does that in a single unified table type. Why that matters is because, I would say, basically cost efficiency and better speed. Again, because you pay for the storage and you pay for the movement. If you're not duplicating that data, moving it across different stores, you're going to have a better experience. >> One of the things you guys pioneered is unifying workloads. You mentioned some of the things you've done. Others are now doing it. Snowflake, Google and others. What does that mean for you guys? I mean, 'cause are they copying you? Are they trying to meet the functionality? >> I think. >> I mean, unification. I mean, people want to just store things and make it, get all the table stakes, check boxes, compliance, security and just keep coding and keep building. >> We think it's actually great 'cause they're validating what we've been seeing in the market for years. And obviously, they see that it's needed by customers. And so we welcome them to the party in terms of bringing these unified workloads together. >> Is it easy or hard? >> It's a difficult thing. We started this in 2014. And we've now have lots of production workloads on this. So we know where all the production edge cases are and that capability is also a building block towards a broader, expansive set of capabilities that we've moved onto that next phase and tomorrow actually we have an event called, The Real Time Data Revolution, excuse me, where we're announcing what's in that new product of ours. >> Is that a physical event or virtual? >> It's a virtual event. >> So we'll get the URL on the show notes, or if you know, just go to the new site. >> Absolutely. SingleStore Real Time Data Revolution, you'll find it. >> Can you tease us with the top three takeaways from Revolution tomorrow? >> So like I said, what makes a database fast? It's the storage and we completed that functionality three years ago with Universal Storage. What we're now doing for this next phase of the evolution is making enterprise features available and Workspaces is one of the foundational capabilities there. What SingleStore Workspaces does is it allows you to have this isolation of compute between your different workloads. So that's often a concern to new users to SingleStore. How can I combine transactions and analytics together? That seems like something that might be not a good thing. Well, there are multiple ways we've been doing that with resource governance, workload management. Workspaces offers another management capability and it's also flexible in that you can scale those workloads independently, or if you have a multi-tenant application, you can segment your application, your customer tenant workloads by each workspace. Another capability we're releasing is called Wasm, which is W-A-S-M, Web Assembly. This is something that's really growing in the open source community and SingleStore's contributing to that open source scene, CF project with WASI and Wasm. Where it's been mentioned mostly in the last few years has been in the browser as a more efficient way to run code in the browser. We're adapting that technology to allow you to run any language of your choice in the database and why that's important, again, it's for data movement. As data gets large in petabyte sizes, you can't move it in and out of Pandas in Python. >> Great innovation. That's real valuable. >> So we call this Code Engine with Wasm and- >> What do you call it? >> Code Engine Powered by Wasm. >> Wow. Wow. And that's open source? >> We contribute to the Wasm open source community. >> But you guys have a service that you- >> Yes. It's our implementation and our database. But Wasm allows you to have code that's portable, so any sort of runtime, which is... At release- >> You move the code, not the data. >> Exactly. >> With the compute. (chuckles) >> That's right, bring the compute to the data is what we say. >> You mentioned a whole bunch of great customer examples, GE, Uber, Thorn, you talked about IEX Cloud. When you're in customer conversations, are you dealing mostly with customers that are looking to you to help replace an existing database that was struggling from a performance perspective? Or are you working with startups who are looking to build a product on SingleStore? Is it both? >> It is a mix of both. I would say among SaaS scale up companies, their API, for instance, is their product or their SaaS application is their product. So quite literally, we're the data engine and the database powering their scale to be able to sign that next big customer or to at least sleep at night to know that it's not going to crash if they sign that next big costumer. So in those cases, we're mainly replacing a lot of databases like MySQL, Postgre, where they're typically starting, but more and more we're finding, it's free to start with SingleStore. You can run it in production for free. And in our developer community, we see a lot of customers running in that way. We have a really interesting community member who has a Minecraft server analytics that he's building based on that SingleStore free tier. In the enterprise, it's different, because there are many incumbent databases there. So it typically is a case where there is a, maybe a new product offering, they're maybe delivering a FinTech API or a new SaaS digital offering, again, to better participate in this digital service economy and they're looking for a better price performance for that real time experience in the app. That's typically the starting point, but there are replacements of traditional incumbent databases as well. >> How has the customer conversation evolved the last couple of years? As we talked about, one of the things we learned in the pandemic was access to real time data and those moments that matter isn't a nice-to-have anymore for businesses. There was that force march to digital. We saw the survivors, we're seeing the thrivers, but want to get your perspective on that. From the customers, how has the conversation evolved or elevated, escalated within an organization as every company has to be a data company? >> It really depends on their business strategy, how they are adapting or how they have adapted to this new digital first orientation and what does that mean for them in the direct interaction with their customers and partners. Often, what it means is they realize that they need to take advantage of using more data in the customer and partner interaction and when they come to those new ideas for new product introductions, they find that it's complicated and expensive to build in the old way. And if you're going to have these real time interactions, interactive applications, APIs, with all this context, you're going to have to find a better, more cost-effective approach to get that to market faster, but also not to have a big sprawling data-based technology infrastructure. We find that in those situations, we're replacing four or five different database technologies. A specialized database for key value, a specialized database for search- >> Because there's no unification before? Is that one of the reasons? >> I think it's an awareness thing. I think technology awareness takes a little bit of time, that there's a new way to do things. I think the old saying about, "Don't pave cow paths when the car..." You could build a straight road and pave it. You don't have to pave along the cow path. I think that's the natural course of technology adaption and so as more- >> And the- pandemic, too, highlighted a lot of the things, like, "Do we really need that?" (chuckles) "Who's going to service that?" >> That's right. >> So it's an awakening moment there where it's like, "Hey, let's look at what's working." >> That's right. >> Double down on it. >> Absolutely. >> What are you excited about new round of funding? We talked about, obviously, probably investments in key growth areas, but what excites you about being part of SingleStore and being a partner of AWS? >> SingleStore is super exciting. I've been in this industry a long time as an engineer and an engineering leader. At the time, we were MemSQL, came into SingleStore. And just that unification and simplification, the systems that I had built as a system engineer and helped architect did the job. They could get the speed and scale you needed to do track and trace kinds of use cases in real time, but it was a big trade off you had to make in terms of the complexity, the skill sets you needed and the cost and just hard to maintain. What excites me most about SingleStore is that it really feels like the iPhone moment for databases because it's not something you asked for, but once your friend has it and shows it to you, why would you have three different devices in your pocket with a flip phone, a calculator? (Lisa and Domenic chuckles) Remember these days? >> Yes. >> And a Blackberry pager. (all chuckling) You just suddenly- >> Or a computer. That's in there. >> That's right. So you just suddenly started using iPhone and that is sort of the moment. It feels like we're at it in the database market where there's a growing awareness and those announcements you mentioned show that others are seeing the same. >> And your point earlier about the iPhone throwing off a lot of data. So now you have data explosions at levels that unprecedented, we've never seen before and the fact that you want to have that iPhone moment, too, as a database. >> Absolutely. >> Great stuff. >> The other part of your question, what excites us about AWS. AWS has been a great partner since the beginning. I mean, when we first released our database, it was the cloud database. It was on AWS by customer demand. That's where our customers were. That's where they were building other applications. And now we have integrations with other native services like AWS Glue and we're in the Marketplace. We've expanded, that said we are a multi-cloud system. We are available in any cloud of your choice and on premise and in hybrid. So we're multi-cloud, hybrid and SaaS distribution. >> Got it. All right. >> Got it. So the event is tomorrow, Revolution. Where can folks go to register? What time does it start? >> 1:00 PM Eastern and- >> 1:00 PM. Eastern. >> Just Google SingleStore Real Time Data Revolution and you'll find it. Love for everyone to join us. >> All right. We look forward to it. Domenic, thank you so much for joining us, talking about SingleStore, the value prop, the differentiators, the validation that's happening in the market and what you guys are doing with AWS. We appreciate it. >> Thanks so much for having me. >> Our pleasure. For Domenic Ravita and John Furrier, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE, live from New York at AWS Summit 22. John and I are going to be back after a short break, so come back. (digital pulsing music)

(upbeat music) >> Welcome everyone to theCUBE presentation of the AWS Startup Showcase, the theme here is Data as Code. This is season two, episode two of our ongoing series covering the exciting startups from the AWS ecosystem. And talk about the future of data, future of analytics, the future of development and all kind of cool stuff in Multicloud. I'm your host, John Furrier. Today we're joined by Ed Bailey, Senior Technology, Technical Evangelist at Cribl. Thanks for coming on the queue here. >> I thank you for the invitation, thrilled to be here. >> The theme of this session is the observability lake, which I love by the way I'm getting into that in a second. A breach investigation's best friend, which is a great topic. Couple of things, one, I like the breach investigation angle, but I also like this observability lake positioning, because I think this is a teaser of what's coming, more and more data usage where it's actually being applied specifically for things here, it's observability lake. So first, what is an observability lake? Why is it important? >> Why it's important is technology professionals, especially security professionals need data to make decisions. They need data to drive better decisions. They need data to understand, just to achieve understanding. And that means they need everything. They don't need what they can afford to store. They don't need not what vendor is going to let them store. They need everything. And I think as a point of the observability lake, because you couple an observability pipeline with the lake to bring your enterprise of data, to make it accessible for analytics, to be able to use it, to be able to get value from it. And I think that's one of the things that's missing right now in the enterprises. Admins are being forced to make decisions about, okay, we can't afford to keep this, we can afford to keep this, they're missing things. They're missing parts of the picture. And by bringing, able to bring it together, to be able to have your cake and eat it too, where I can get what I need and I can do it affordably is just, I think that's the future, and it just drives value for everyone. >> And it just makes a lot of sense data lake or the earlier concert, throw everything into the lake, and you can figure it out, you can query it, you can take action on it real time, you can stream it. You can do all kinds of things with it. Verb observability is important because it's the most critical thing people are doing right now for all kinds of things from QA, administration, security. So this is where the breach piece comes in. I like that's part of the talk because the breached investigation's best friend, it implies that you got the secret sourced to behind it, right? So, what is the state of the breach investigation today? What's going on with that? Because we know breaches, we see 'em out there, but like, why is this the best friend of a breach investigator? >> Well, and this is unfortunate, but typically there's an enormous delay between breach and detection. And right now, there's an IBM study, I think it's 287 days, but from the actual breach to detection and containment. It's an enormous amount of time. And the key is so when you do detect a breach, you're bringing in your instant, your response team, and typically without an observability lake, without Cribl solutions around observability pipeline, you're going to have an incomplete picture. The incident response team has to first to understand what's the scope of the breach. Is it one server? Is it three servers? Is it all the servers? You got to understand what's been compromised, what's been the end, what's the impact? How did the breach occur in the first place? And they need all the data to stitch that together, and they need it quickly. The more time it takes to get that data, the more time it takes for them to finish their analysis and contain the breach. I mean, hence the, I think about an 87, 90 days to contain a breach. And so by being able to remove the friction, by able to make it easier to achieve these goals, what shouldn't be hard, but making, by removing that friction, you speed up the containment and resolution time. Not to mention for many system administrators, they don't simply have the data because they can afford to store the data in their SIEM. Or they have to go to their backup team to get a restore which can take days. And so that's-- It's just so many obstacles to getting resolution right now. >> I mean, it's just, you're crawling through glass there, right? Because you think about it like just the timing aspect. Where is the data? Where is it stored and relevant and-- >> And do you have it at all? >> And you have it at all, and then, you know, that person doesn't work anywhere, they change jobs. I mean, who is keeping track of all this? You guys have now, this capability where you can come in and do the instrumentation with the observability lake without a lot of change to the environment, which is not the way it used to be. Used to be, buy a tool, build a platform. Cribl has a solution that eases the struggles with the enterprise. What specifically is that pain point? And what do you guys do specifically? >> Well, I'll start out with kind of example, what drew me to Cribl, so back in 2018. I'm running the Splunk team for a very large multinational. The complexity of that, we were dealing with the complexity of the data, the demands we were getting from security and operations were just an enormous issue to overcome. I had vendors come to me all the time that will solve your problems, but that means you got to move to our platform where you have to get rid of Splunk or you have to do this, and I'm losing something. And what Cribl stream brought into, was I could put it between my sources and my destinations and manage my data. And I would have flow control over the data. I don't have to lose anything. I could keep continuing use our existing analytics tools, and that sense of power and control, and I don't have to lose anything. I was like, there's something wrong here. This is too good to be true. And so what we're talking about now in terms of breach investigation, is that with Cribl stream, I can create a clone of my data to an object store. So this is in, this is almost any object store. So it can be AWS, it could be the other vendor object stores. It could be on-prem object stores. And then I can house my data, I can house all my data at the cheapest possible price. So instead of eating up my most expensive storage, I put all my data in my object store. And I only put the data I need for the detections in my SIEM. So if, and hopefully never, but if you do have a breach, lock stream has a wonderful UI that makes a trivial to then pick my data out of my object store and restore it back into my SIEM so that my IR team has to develop a complete picture of how the breach happen. What's the scope? What is their lateral movement and answer those questions. And it just, it takes the friction away. Just like you said, just no more crawling over glass. You're running to your solution. >> You mentioned object store, and you're streaming that in. You talk about the Cribble stream tool. I'm assuming there when you're streaming the pipeline stuff, but is there a schema involved? Is there database challenges? What, how do you guys look at that? I know you're vendor agnostic. I like that piece, you plug in and you leverage all the tools that are out there, Splunk, Datadog, whatever. But how about on the database side, what's the impact there? >> Well, so I'm assuming you're talking about the object store itself, so we don't have to apply the schema. We can fit the data to whichever the object store is. We structure the data so it makes it easier to understand. For example, if I want to see communications from one IP to another IP, we structure it to make it easier to see that and query that, but it is just, we're-- Yeah, it's completely vendor neutral and this makes it so simple, so simple to enable, I think-- >> So no pre-defined schema needed. >> No, not at all. And this, it made it so much easier. I think we enabled this for the enterprise. I think it took us three hours to do, and we were able to then start, I mean, start cutting our retention costs dramatically. >> Yeah, it's great when you get that kind of value, time to value critical and all the skeptics fall to the sides pretty quickly. (chuckles) I got to ask you, well, go ahead. >> So I say, I mean, previously, I would have to go to our backup team. We'd have to open up a ticket, we'd have to have a bridge, then we'd have to go through the process of pulling tape and being, it could take, you know, hours, hours if not days to restore the amount of data we needed. And just it, you know, we were able to run to our goals, and solve business problems instead of focusing on the process steps of getting things done. >> Right, so take me through the architecture here and some customer examples, 'cause you have the Cribble streaming there, observability pipeline. That's key, you mentioned that. >> Yes. >> And then they build out these observability lakes from that. So what is the impact of that? Can you share the customers that are using that solution? What are they seeing for benefits? What are some of the impact? Can you give us some specifics? >> I mean, I can't share with all the exact customer names. I can definitely give you some examples. Like referenceable conference would be TransUnion, so that I came from TransUnion. I was one of the first customers and it solved enormous number of problems for us. Autodesk is another great example. The idea that we're able to automate and data practices. I mean, just for example, what we were talking about with backups. We'd have to, you have to put a lot of time into managing your backups in your inner analytics platforms, you have to. And then you're locked into custom database schemas, you're locked into vendors. And it's also, it's still, it's expensive. So being able to spend a few hours, dramatically cut your costs, but still have the data available, and that's the key. I didn't have to make compromises, 'cause before I was having to say, okay, we're going to keep this, we're going to just drop this and hope for the best. And we just don't, we just didn't have to do that anymore. I think for the same thing for TransUnion and Autodesk, the idea that we're going to lower our cost, we're going to make it easier for our administrators to do their job and so they can spend more time on business value fundamentals, like responding to a breach. You're going to spend time working with your teams, getting value observability solutions and stop spending time on writing custom solutions using to open source tools. 'Cause your engineering time is the most precious asset for any enterprise and you got to focus your engineering time on where it's needed the most. >> Yeah, and they can't underestimate the hassle and cost of ownership, of swapping out pre-existing stuff, just for the sake of having a functionality. I mean that's a big-- >> It's pain and that's a big thing about lock stream is that being vendor neutral is so important. If you want to use the Splunk universal forwarder, that's great. If you want to use Beats, that's awesome. If you want to use Fluentd, even better. If you want to use all three, you can do that too. It's the customer choice and we're saying to people, use what suits your needs. And if you want to write some of your data to elastic, that's great. Some of your data to Splunk, that's even better. Some of it to, pick your pick, fine as well or Exabeam. You have the choices to put together, put your own solutions together and put your data where you need it to be. We're not asking you only in our ecosystem to work with only our partners. We're letting you pick and choose what suits your business. >> Yeah, you know, that's the direction I was just talking about the Amazon folks around their serverless. You know, you can use any tool, you know, you can, they have that core architecture for everything, the S3 and then pick whatever you want to use. SageMaker, just that other thing. This is the new way. That's the way it has to be to be effective. How do you guys handle that? What's been the reaction from customers? Do they like, roll their eyes and doubt you guys, or can you do it? Are they skeptical? How fast can you convert 'em over? (chuckles) >> Right, and that's always the challenge. And that's, I mean, the best part of my day is talking to customers. I love hearing and feedback, what they like, what they don't and what they need. And of course I was skeptical. I didn't believe it when I first saw it because I was like this, you know, because I'm, I was used to being locked in. I was used to having to put a lot of effort, a lot of custom code, like, what do you mean? It's this easy? I believe I did the first, this is 2018, and I did our first demos, like 30 minutes in, and I cut about 1/2 million dollars out of our license in the first 30 minutes in our first demo. And I was stunned because I mean, it's like, this is easy. >> Yeah, I mean-- >> Yeah, exactly. I mean, this is, and then this is the future. And then for example, we needed to bring in so like the security team wanted to bring in a UBA solution that wasn't part of the vendor ecosystem that we were in. And I was like, not a problem. We're going to use log stream. We're going to clone a copy of our data to the UBA solution. We were able to get value from this UBA solution in weeks. What typically is a six month cycle to start getting value. And it just, it was just too easy and the best part of it. And the thing is, it just struck me was my engineers can now spend their time on delivering value instead of integrations and moving data around. >> Yeah, and also we can spend more time preventing breaches. But what's interesting is counterintuitive here is that, if you, as you add more flexibility and choice, you'd think it'd be harder to handle a breach, right? So, now let's go back to the scenario. Now you guys, say an organization has a breach, and they have the observability pipeline, They got the lake in place, your observability lake, take me through the investigation. How easy is it, what happens? How they start it, what goes on? >> So, once your SOC detects a breach, then they bring in the idea. Typically you're going to bring in your incident response team. So what we did, and this is one more way that we removed that friction, we cleaned up the glass, is we delegate to the instant response team, the ability to restore, we call it-- So if Cribl calls it replay, we play data at our object store back into your SIEM. There's a very nice UI that gives you the ability to say, "I want data from this time period, at this time period, I want it to be all the data." Or the ability to filter and say, "I want this, just this IP." For example, if I detected, okay, this IP has been breached then I'm going to pull all the data that mentions this IP and this timeframe, hit a button and it just starts. And then it's going to restore how as fast your IOPS are for your solution. And then it's back in your tool, it's back in your tool. One of the things I also want to mention is we have an amazing enrichment capability. So one of the things that we would do is we would've pipelines so as the data comes out of the object store, it hits the pipeline, and then we enrich it. We hit use GoIP information, perverse and NAS. It gets processed through threat Intel feed. So the data's already enriched and ready for the incident response people to do their job. And so it just, it bamboozle the friction of getting to the point where I can start doing my job. >> You know, at this theme, this episode for this showcase is about Data as Code. And which is, you know, we've been, I've been saying this on theCUBES for since it was being around 13 years ago, that developers are going to be dealing with data like they deal with software code, and you're starting to see, you mentioned enrichment. Where do you see Data as Code going? How relevant in it now, because we really talking about when you add machine learning in here, that has to be enriched, and iterated on too. We're talking about taking things off a branch and putting it back into the core. This is a data discussion, this isn't software, but it sounds the same. >> Right, and this is something that the irony is that, I remember first time saying it to an auditor. I was constantly going with auditors, and that's what I described is I'm going to show you the code that manages the data. This is the data's code that's going to show you how we transform it, how we secure it, where the data goes, how it's enriched. So you can see the whole story, the data life cycle in one place. And that's how we handled our orders. And I think that is enormously, you know, positive because it's so easy to be confused. It's so easy to have complexity to get in the way of progress. And by being able to represent your Data as Code, it's a step forward 'cause the amount of data and the complexity of data, it's not getting simpler, it's getting more complex. So we need to come up with better ways to handle it. >> Now you've been on both sides of the fence. You've been in the trenches as customer, now you're a supplier with Great Solution. What are people doing with this data engineering roles? Because it's not enough data engineering. I mean, 'cause if you say Data as Code, if you believe that to be true and many people do, we do. And you looked at the history of infrastructure risk code that enabled DevOps, AIOps, MLOps, DataOps, it's happening, right? So data stack ops is coming. Obviously security is huge in this. How does that data engineering role evolve? Because it just seems more and more that there's going to be a big push towards an SRE version of data, right? >> I completely agree. I was working with a customer yesterday, and I spent a large part of our conversation talking about implementing development practices for administrators. It's a new role. It's a new way to think of things 'cause traditionally your Splunk or elastic administrators is talking about operating systems and memory and talking about how to use proprietary tools in the vendor, that's just not quite the same. And so we started talking about, you need to have, you need to start getting used to code reviews. Yeah, the idea of getting used to making sure everything has a comment, was one thing I told him was like, you know, if you have a function has to have a comment, just by default, just it has to. Yeah, the standards of how you write things, how you name things all really start to matter. And also you got to start adding, considering your skillset. And this is some mean probably one of the best hire I ever made was I hired a guy with a math degree, because I needed his help to understand how do machine learning works, how to pick the best type of algorithm. And I think this is going to evolve, that you're going to be just away from the gray bearded administrator to some other gray bearded administrator with a math degree. >> It's interesting, it's a step function. You have a data engineer who's got that kind of capabilities, like what the SRA did with infrastructure. The step function of enablement, the value creation from really good data engineering, puts the democratization playback on the table, and changes, >> Thank you very much John. >> And changes that entire landscape. How do you, what's your reaction to that? >> I completely agree 'cause so operational data. So operational security data is the most volatile data in the enterprise. It changes on a whim, you have developers who change things. They don't tell you what happens, vendor doesn't tell you what happened, and so that idea, that life cycle of managing data. So the same types of standards of disciplines that database administrators have done for years is going to have, it has to filter down into the operational areas, and you need tooling that's going to give you the ability to manage that data, manage it in flight in real time, in order to drive detections, in order to drive response. All those business value things we've been talking about. >> So I got to ask you the larger role that you see with observability lakes we were talking before we came on camera live here about how exciting this kind of concept is, and you were attracted to the company because of it. I love the observability lake concept because it puts all that data in one spot, you can manage it. But you got machine learning in AI around the corner that also can help. How has all this changed in the landscape of data security and things because it makes a lot of sense, and I can only see it getting better with machine learning. >> Yeah, definitely does. >> Totally, and so the core issue, and I don't want to say, so when you talk about observability, most people have assumptions around observability is only an operational or an application support process. It's also security process. The idea that you're looking for your unknown, unknowns. This is what keeps security administrators up at night is I'm being attacked by something I don't know about. How do you find those unknown? And that's where your machine learning comes in. And that's where that you have to understand there's so many different types of machine learning algorithms, where the guy that I hired, I mean, had started educating me about the umpteen number of algorithms and how it applies to different data and how you get different value, how you have to test your data constantly. There's no such thing as the magical black box of machine learning that gives you value. You have to implement, but just like the developer practices to keep testing and over and over again, data scientists, for example. >> The best friend of a machine learning algorithm is data, right? You got to keep feeding that data, and when the data sets are baked and secure and vetted, even better, all cool. Had great stuff, great insight. Congratulations Cribl, Great Solution. Love the architecture, love the pipelining of the observability data and streaming that in to a lake. Great stuff. Give a plug for the company where you guys are at, where people can get information. I know you guys got a bunch of live feeds on YouTube, Twitch, here in theCUBE. Where else can people find you? Give the plug. >> Oh, please, please join our slack community, go to cribl.io/community. We have an amazing community. This was another thing that drew me to the company is have a large group of people who are genuinely excited about data, about managing data. If you want to try Cribl out, we have some great tool. Try Cribl tools out. We have a cloud platform, one terabyte up free data. So go to cribl.io/cloud or cribl.cloud, sign up for, you know, just never times out. You're not 30 day, it's forever up to one terabyte. Try out our new products as well, Cribl Edge. And then finally come watch Nick Decker and I, every Thursday, 2:00 PM Eastern. We have live streams on Twitter, LinkedIn and YouTube live. And so just my Twitter handle is EBA 1367. Love to have, love to chat, love to have these conversations. And also, we are hiring. >> All right, good stuff. Great team, great concepts, right? Of course, we're theCUBE here. We got our video lake coming on soon. I think I love this idea of having these video. Hey, videos data too, right? I mean, we've got to keep coming to you. >> I love it, I love videos, it's awesome. It's a great way to communicate, it's a great way to have a conversation. That's the best thing about us, having conversations. I appreciate your time. >> Thank you so much, Ed, for representing Cribl here on the Data as Code. This is season two episode two of the ongoing series covering the hottest, most exciting startups from the AWS ecosystem. Talking about the future data, I'm John Furrier, your host. Thanks for watching. >> Ed: All right, thank you. (slow upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Every company needs great salespeople, it's one of the most lucrative professions out there. And there's plenty of wisdom and knowledge that's been gathered over the years about selling. We've heard it all, famous quotes from the greatest salespeople of our time, like Zig Ziglar and Jeffrey Gitomer, and Dale Carnegie and Jack Welch, and many others. Things like, "Each of us has only 24 hours in a day, "it's all about how we use our time." And, "You don't have to be great to start, "but you have to start to be great." And then I love this one, "People hate to be sold, but they love to buy." "There are no traffic jams on the extra mile, "make change before you have to." And the all time classic, "Put that coffee down. "Coffee is for closers." Thousands of pieces of sales advice are readily available in books, videos, on blogs and in podcasts, and many of these are free of charge. So why would entrepreneurs start a company to train salespeople? And how is it that sharp investors are pouring millions of dollars into this space? Hello everyone, and welcome to this Cube Video Exclusive, my name is Dave Vellante, and today we welcome Paul Fifield who's the co-founder and CEO of Sales Impact Academy who's going to answer these questions and share some exciting news on the startups. Paul, welcome to "The Cube" good to see you again. >> Yeah, good to see you again, Dave, great to be here. >> Hey, so before we get into the hard news, tell us a little bit about the Sales Impact Academy, why'd you start the company, maybe some of the fundamentals of this market, your total available market, who you're targeting, you know, what's the premise behind the company? >> Yeah sure. So I mean, I started the company, it was actually pretty organic in the way it began. I had a 10 year career as a CRO and it was, you know, had a couple of great hits with two companies, but it was a real struggle to basically, you know, operate as a CRO and learn your craft at the same time. And so when I left my last company, I kind of got out there, I wanted to kind of give back a little bit and I started doing some voluntary teaching in and around London, and I actually, one of the companies I started was in New York so I got schooled very much on a sort of US approach to how you build a modern you know, go to market and sales operation. Started going out there, doing some teaching, realized that so many people just didn't have a clue about how to build a scalable and predictable revenue function, and I kind of felt sorry for them. So I literally started doing some, you know, online classes myself, got my co-founder Alex to put curriculum together as well and we literally started just doing online classes, very live, very organic, just a Google Drive and some decks, and it really just blew up from there. >> That's amazing. I mean, so you've my, you know, tongue and cheek up front, but people might wonder, why do you need a platform 'cause there's so much free information out there? Is it to organize, is it a discipline thing? Explain that. >> Well, I think the way I sort of see this is that is that the lack of structured learning and education is actually one of the greatest educational travesties, I think, of the last 50 years, okay. Now sales and go to market is a huge global profession, right? Half the world's companies are B2B, so roughly that's a proxy for half the world's GDP, right? Which is $40 trillion of GDP. Now that 40 trillion rests on kind of the success of the growth and the sales functions of all those companies. Yet in its infinite wisdom, the global education system literally just ignored sales and go to market as a profession. Some universities are kind of catching up, but it's really too little too late. So what I sort of say to people, you imagine this Dave, right. You imagine if the way that law worked as a profession let's say, is that there's no law school, there's no law training, there's no even in work professional continuous professional development in law. The way that it works is you leave university, join a company, start practicing law and just use like YouTube just to maybe like, you know, where you're struggling, just use YouTube to like work out what's going on. The legal profession would be in absolute chaos. And that's what's happened in the sales and go to market profession, okay. What this profession desperately desperately needs is structured learning, good pedagogy, good well designed course and curriculum. And here's the other thing, right? Is the sort of paradox of infinite information is that just because all the information is out there, right, doesn't mean it's actually a good learning experience. Like, where do you find it? What's good? What's not good? And also the other thing I'd point out is that there is this kind of myth that all the information is out there on the internet. But actually what we do, and we'll come into it in a second is, the people teaching on our platform are the elite people from the industry. They haven't got time to do blog posts and just explain to people how they operate. They're going from company to company working at like, you know, working at these kind of elite companies. And they're the people that teach, and that information is not readily available and freely out there on the internet. >> Yeah, real opportunity, you made some great points there. I think business schools are finally starting to teach a little bit about public speaking and presenting, but nobody's teaching us how to sell. As Earl Nightingale says, "To some degree we're all salespeople, "selling our family on living the good life" or whatever. What movie we want to see tonight. But okay, let's get to the hard news. You got fresh funding of 22 million, tell us about that, congratulations. You know, the investors, what else can you share with us? >> Sure. Well, I mean, obviously, you know, immensely proud. We started from very sort of humble beginnings, as I said, we've now scaled very rapidly, we're a subscription business, we're a SaaS business. We'll come onto some of the growth metrics shortly, but just in a couple of years, you know, the last year which ended January, we grew 500% from year one, we're now well over 125 people, and I'm very, very, very honored, flattered, humbled that MIT, obviously one of those prestigious universities in the world, has taken a direct investment by their endowment fund, HubSpot Ventures. Another Boston great has also taken a direct investment as well. They actually began as a customer and loved what we were doing so much that they then decided to make an investment. Stage 2 Capital who invested in our seed round pretty much tripled down, played a huge role in helping us assemble MIT and HubSpot ventures as investors, and they continue to be an incredible VC giving us amazing, amazing support that their LP network of go to market leaders is second to none. And then Emerge Education, who is our pre-seed investor, they're actually based in London, also joined this round as well. >> Great, well actually, let's jump ahead. Let's talk about the metrics. I mean, if Stage Two is involved, they're hardcore. What can you share with us about, you know, everybody's chasing AR and NR and the like, what can you share with us? >> They are both pretty important. Well, I think from a headcount perspective, so as I mentioned our fiscal ends at the end of January, each year. We've gone from 25 to over 125 employees in that time. We've gone from 82 to 260 customers also in that time. And customers now include HubSpot, Gong, Klaviyo, GitHub, GT, Six Cents, so some really sort of major SaaS companies in the space. Our revenue's grown significantly with 5X. So 500% increase in revenue year over year, which is pretty fast, very proud of that. Our learning community has gone from over 3000 people to almost 15,000 professionals, and that makes us comfortably, the largest go to market learning community in the world. >> How did you decide when to scale? What were the sort of signals that said to you, "Okay, we're ready, "we have product market fit, "we can now scale the go to market." What were the signals there, Paul? >> Yeah. Well, I mean, I think for a very small team to achieve that level of growth in customers, to be kind of honest with you, like it's the pull that we're getting from the market. And I think the thing that has surprised me the most, perhaps in the last 12 months, is the pull we're getting from the enterprise. We're you know, I can't really announce, we've actually got a huge pilot with one of the largest companies actually in the world which is going fantastically well, our pipeline for enterprise customers is absolutely huge. But as you can imagine, if you've got distributed teams all over the world, we're living and working in this kind of hybrid world, how on earth do you kind of upscale all those people, right, that are, like I say, that are so distributed. It's impossible. Like in work, in the office delivery of training is pretty much dead, right? And so we sort of fill this really big pain, we solved this really, really big pain of how to effectively upskill people through this kind of live curriculum and this live teaching approach that we have. So I think for me, it's the pull that we're getting from the market really meant that you know, we have to double down. There is such a massive TAM, it is absolutely ridiculous. I mean, I think there are 20 million people just in sales and go to market in tech alone, right. And I mentioned to you earlier, half the world's companies effectively, you know, are B2B and therefore represent, you know, at its largest scope, our TAM. >> Excellent, thank you for that. Tell us more about the product and the platform. How's it work if I'm a customer, what type of investment do I have to make both financially? And what's my time commitment? How do you structure that? >> So the model is basically on a seat model. So roughly speaking, every seat's about a thousand dollars per year per rep. The lift is light. So we've got a very low onboarding, it's not a highly complex technical product, right? We've got a vast curriculum of learning that covers learning for, you know, SDRs, and the AEs, and CS reps, and leadership management training. We're developing curriculum for technical pre-sales, we're developing curriculum for revenue operations. And so it's very, very simple. We basically, it's a seat model, people literally just send us the seats and the details, we get people up and running in the platform, they start then enrolling and we have a customer success team that then plots out learning journeys and learning pathways for all of our customers. And actually what's starting to happen now, which is very, very exciting is that, you know, we're actually a key part of people's career development pathway. So to go from you know, SDR1 let's say to SDR2, you have to complete these three courses with Sales Impact Academy, and let's say, get 75% in your exam and it becomes a very powerful and simple way of developing career pathway. >> Yeah, so really detailed curriculum. So I was going to say, do I as a sales professional, do I pick and choose the things that are most relevant for me? Or are people actually going through a journey in career progression, or maybe both? >> Yeah, it's a mixture of both. We tend to see now, we're sort of starting to standardize, but really we're developing enough curriculum that over, let's say a 15 year period, you could start with us as an SDR and then end as a chief revenue officer, you know, running the entire function. This is the other thing about the crazy world of go to market. Very often, people are put into roles and it's sink or swim. There's no real learning that happens, there's no real development that happens before people take these big steps. And what this platform does so beautifully is is it equips people with the right skills and knowledge before they take that next step in their profession and in their career. And it just dramatically improves their chances of succeeding. >> Who are the trainers? Who's leading the classes, how do you find these guys, how do you structure? What are the content, you know, vectors, where's all that come from? >> Yeah. So the sort of secret source of what we do, beyond just the live instruction, beyond the significant amount of peer to peer learning that goes on, is that we go and source the absolute most elite people in go to market to teach, okay. Now I mentioned to you before, you've got these people that are going from like job to job at the very like the sort of peak of their careers, working for these incredible companies, it's that knowledge that we want to get access to, right. And so Stage 2 Capital is an incredible resource. The interesting thing about Stage 2 Capital as you know Dave, you know, run by Mark Roberge, who was on when we spoke last year and also Jay Po is all the LPs of Stage 2 Capital represent 3 to 400 of the most elite go to market professionals in the world. So, you know, about seven or eight of those are now on an advisory board. And so we have access to this incredible pool of talent. And so we know by consulting these amazing people who are the best people in certain aspects of go to market. We reach out to them and very often they're at a stage in their career where they're really kind of willing to give back, of course there are commercials around it as well, and there's lots of other benefits that we provide our teachers and our faculty, and what we call our coaches. But yeah, we source the very, very best people in the world to teach. >> Now, how does it work as a user of your service? Is it all on demand? Do you do live content or a combination? >> Yeah look, one of the big differentiators is this is a live delivery of learning, okay. Most learning online is typically done on demand, self-directed, and there's a ton of research. There's a great blog post on Andrew's recent site. A short time ago, which is talking about how the completion rates of on demand learning are somewhere between 3 and 6%. That is like, that's awful. >> Terrible. >> I was like why bother? However, we're seeing through that live instruction. So we teach two, one hour classes a week, that's it. We're upskilling very busy people, they're stressed, they've got targets. We have to be very, very cognizant of that. So we teach two, one hour classes a week. Typically, you know, Monday and a Wednesday, or a Tuesday and a Thursday. And that pace of learning is about right, it's kind of how humans learn as well. You know, short bursts of information, and then put that learning and those skills that you've acquired in class literally to work minutes after the class finishes. And so through that, and it sits in your calendar like a meeting, it doesn't feel overwhelming, you're learning together as a team as well. And all that combined, we see completion rates often in excess of 80% for our courses. >> Okay, so they block that time out- >> In the calendar, yeah. >> And they make an investment. Go ahead, please. >> Yeah yeah, exactly, sorry Dave. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So like, you know, we have course lengths. So one of our shorter courses are like four hours long over two weeks. And again, it's just literally in the calendar. We also teach what we call The Magic Learning Hour. And the magic learning hour is this one specific hour in the day that enables teams all over the western hemisphere to join the same class. And that magic learning hour is eight o'clock Pacific 11 o'clock Eastern, >> 4: 00 PM over in the UK, and 5:00 PM in the rest of Europe. And that one time in the day means that these enterprises have got teams all over the western hemisphere joining that class, learning together as a team, plus it's in the calendar and it's that approach is why we're seeing such high engagement and completion. >> That's very cool, the time zone thing. Now who's the target buyer? Are you selling only to sales teams? Can I as an individual purchase your service? >> Yeah, that's a good question. Currently it's a very much like a B2B motion. As I mentioned earlier on, we're getting an enormous pull from the enterprise, which is very exciting. You know, we have an enterprise segment, we have sort of more of a startup earlier stage segment, and then we have a mid-market segment that we call our sort of strategic, and that's typically and most of like venture backed, fast growth tech companies. So very much at the moment a B2B motion. We're launching our own technology platform in the early summer, and then later on this year we're going to be adding what's called PLG or a product led growth, so individuals can actually sign up to SIA. >> Yeah, I mean, I think you said $1,000 per year per rep, is that right? I mean, that's- >> Yeah. >> That's a small investment for an individual that wants to be part of, you know, this community and grow his or her career. So that's the growth plan? You go down market I would imagine, you talked about the western hemisphere, there's international opportunities maybe, local language. What's the growth plan? >> Yeah, I mean look, we've identified the magic learning hour for the middle east and APAC, which is eight o'clock in the morning in Istanbul, right. Is 5:00 PM in Auckland, it's quite fun trying to work out like what this optimum magic learning hour is. What's incredible is we teach in that time and that opens up the whole of the middle east and the whole of APAC, right, right down to Australia. And so once we're teaching the curriculum in those two slots, that means literally you can have teams in any country in the world, I think apart from Hawaii, you can actually access our live learning products in work time and that's incredibly powerful. So we have so many like axis of growth, we've got single users as I mentioned, but really Dave that's single users we'll be winning from the enterprise and that will represent pipeline that we could then potentially convert as well. And look, you make a very good point. You know, we've seen students are now leaving university with over $100,000 dollars in debt. We've got a massive, massive debt problem here in the US with student debt. You could absolutely sign up to our platform at let's say a hundred bucks a month, right. And probably within six months, gain enough knowledge and skill to walk into a $60,000 a year based salary job as an SDR, that's a huge entry level salary. And you could do that without even going to university. So there could be a time here where we become a really viable alternative to actually even going to university. >> I love it. The cost education going through the roof, it's out of reach for so many people. Paul, congratulations on the progress, the fresh funding. Great to have you back in "The Cube." We'd love to have you back and follow your ascendancy. I think great things ahead for you guys. >> Thank you very much, Dave. >> All right, and thank you for watching. This is Dave Vellante for "The Cube, we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

(gentle upbeat music) >> People hate to be sold, but they love to buy. We become what we think about, think, and grow rich. If you want to gather honey, don't kick over the beehive. The world is replete with time-tested advice and motivational ideas for aspiring salespeople, Dale Carnegie, Napoleon Hill, Norman Vincent Peale, Earl Nightingale, and many others have all published classics with guidance that when followed closely, almost always leads to success. More modern personalities have emerged in the internet era, like Tony Robbins, and Gary Vaynerchuk, and Angela Duckworth. But for the most part, they've continued to rely on book publishing, seminars, and high value consulting to peddle their insights and inspire action. Welcome to this video exclusive on theCUBE. This is Dave Vellante, and I'm pleased to welcome back Professor Mark Roberge, who is one of the Managing Directors at Stage 2 Capital, and Paul Fifield, who's the CEO and Co-Founder of Sales Impact Academy. Gentlemen, welcome. Great to see you. >> You too Dave and thanks. >> All right, let's get right into it. Paul, you guys are announcing today a $4 million financing round. It comprises $3 million in a seed round led by Stage 2 and a million dollar in debt financing. So, first of all, congratulations. Paul, why did you start Sales Impact Academy? >> Cool, well, I think my background is sort of two times CRO, so I've built two reasonably successful companies. Built a hundred plus person teams. And so I've got kind of this firsthand experience of having to learn literally everything on the job whilst delivering these very kind of rapid, like achieving these very rapid growth targets. And so when I came out of those two journeys, I literally just started doing some voluntary teaching in and around London where I now live. I spend a bunch of time over in New York, and literally started this because I wanted to sort of kind of give back, but just really wanted to start helping people who were just really, really struggling in high pressure environments. And that's both leadership from sense of revenue leadership people, right down to sort of frontline SDRs. And I think as I started just doing this voluntary teaching, I kind of realized that actually the sort of global education system has done is a massive, massive disservice, right? I actually call it the greatest educational travesty of the last 50 years, where higher education has entirely overlooked sales as a profession. And the knock-on consequences of that have been absolutely disastrous for our profession. Partly that the profession is seen as a bit sort of embarrassing to be a part of. You kind of like go get a sales job if you can't get a degree. But more than that, the core fundamental within revenue teams and within sales people is now completely lacking 'cause there's no structured formal kind of like learning out there. So that's really the problem we're trying to solve on the kind of like the skill side. >> Great. Okay. And mark, always good to have you on, and I got to ask you. So even though, I know this is the wheelhouse for you and your partners, and of course, you've got a deep bench of LPs, but lay out the investment thesis here. What's the core problem that you saw and how are you looking at the market? >> Yeah, sure, Dave. So this one was a special one for me. We've spoken in the past. I mean, just personally I've always had a similar passion to Paul that it's amazing how important sales execution is to all companies, nevermind just the startup ecosystem. And I've always personally been motivated by anything that can help the startup ecosystem increase their success. Part of why I teach at Harvard and try to change some of the stuff that Paul's talking about, which is like, it's amazing how little education is done around sales. But in this particular one, not only personally was I excited about, but from a fun perspective, we've got to look at the economic outcomes. And we've been thinking a lot about the sales tech stack. It's evolved a ton in the last couple of decades. We've gone from the late '90s where every sales VP was just, they had a thing called the CRM that none of their reps even used, right? And we've come so far in 20 years, we've got all these amazing tools that help us cold call, that help us send emails efficiently and automatically and track everything, but nothing's really happened on the education side. And that's really the enormous gap that we've seen is, these organizations being much more proactive around adopting technology that can prove sales execution, but nothing on the education side. And the other piece that we saw is, it's almost like all these companies are reinventing the wheel of looking in the upcoming year, having a dozen sales people to hire, and trying to put together a sales enablement program within their organization to teach salespeople sales 101. Like how to find a champion, how to develop a budget, how to develop sense of urgency. And what Paul and team can do in the first phase of essay, is can sort of centralize that, so that all of these organizations can benefit from the best content and the best instructors for their team. >> So Paul, exactly, thank you, mark. Exactly what do you guys do? What do you sell? I'm curious, is this sort of, I'm thinking in my head, is this E-learning, is it really part of the sales stack? Maybe you could help us understand that better. >> Well, I think this problem of having to upscale teams has been around like forever. And kind of going back to the kind of education problem, it's what's wild is that we would never accept this of our lawyers, our accountants, or HR professionals. Imagine like someone in your finance team arriving on day one and they're searching YouTube to try and work out how to like put a balance sheet together. So it's a chronic, chronic problem. And so the way that we're addressing this, and I think the problem is well understood, but there's always been a terrible market, sort of product market fit for how the problem gets solved. So as mark was saying, typically it's in-house revenue leaders who themselves have got massive gaps in their knowledge, hack together some internal learning that is just pretty poor, 'cause it's not really their skillset. The other alternative is bringing in really expensive consultants, but they're consultants with a very single worldview and the complexity of a modern revenue organization is very, very high these days. And so one consultant is not going to really kind of like cover every topic you need. And then there's the kind of like fairly old fashioned sales training companies that just come in, one big hit, super expensive and then sort of leave again. So the sort of product market fit to solve, has always been a bit pretty bad. So what we've done is we've created a subscription model. We've essentially productized skills development. The way that we've done that is we teach live instruction. So one of the big challenges Andreessen Horowitz put a post out around this so quite recently, one of the big problems of online learning is that this kind of huge repository of online learning, which puts all the onus on the learner to have the discipline to go through these courses and consume them in an on-demand way is actually they're pretty ineffective. We see sort of completion rates of like 7 to 8%. So we've always gone from a live instruction model. So the sort of ingredients are the absolute very best people in the world in their very specific skill teaching live classes just two hours per week. So we're not overwhelming the learners who are already in work, and they have targets, and they've got a lot of pressure. And we have courses that last maybe four to like 12 hours over two to sort of six to seven weeks. So highly practical live instruction. We have 70, 80, sometimes even 90% completion rates of the sort of live class experience, and then teams then rapidly put that best practice into practice and see amazing results in things like top of funnel, or conversion, or retention. >> So live is compulsory and I presume on-demand? If you want to refresh you have an on demand option? >> Yeah, everything's recorded, so you can kind of catch up on a class if you've missed it, But that live instruction is powerful because it's kind of in your calendar, right? So you show up. But the really powerful thing, actually, is that entire teams within companies can actually learn at exactly the same pace. So we teach it eight o'clock Pacific, 11 o'clock Eastern, >> 4: 00 PM in the UK, and 5:00 PM Europe. So your entire European and North American teams can literally learn in the same class with a world-class expert, like a Mark, or like a Kevin Dorsey, or like Greg Holmes from Zoom. And you're learning from these incredible people. Class finishes, teams can come back together, talk about this incredible best practice they've just learned, and then immediately put it into practice. And that's where we're seeing these incredible, kind of almost instant impact on performance at real scale. >> So, Mark, in thinking about your investment, you must've been thinking about, okay, how do we scale this thing? You've got an instructor component, you've got this live piece. How are you thinking about that at scale? >> Yeah, there's a lot of different business model options there. And I actually think multiple of them are achievable in the longer term. That's something we've been working with Paul quite a bit, is like, they're all quite compelling. So just trying to think about which two to start with. But I think you've seen a lot of this in education models today. Is a mixture of on-demand with prerecorded. And so I think that will be the starting point. And I think from a scalability standpoint, we were also, we don't always try to do this with our investments, but clearly our LP base or limited partner base was going to be a key ingredient to at least the first cycle of this business. You know, our VC firm's backed by over 250 CRO CMOs heads of customer success, all of which are prospective instructors, prospective content developers, and prospective customers. So that was a little nicety around the scale and investment thesis for this one. >> And what's in it for them? I mean, they get paid. Obviously, you have a stake in the game, but what's in it for the instructors. They get paid on a sort of a per course basis? How does that model work? >> Yeah, we have a development fee for each kind of hour of teaching that gets created So we've mapped out a pretty significant curriculum. And we have about 250 hours of life teaching now already written. We actually think it's going to be about 3000 hours of learning before you get even close to a complete curriculum for every aspect of a revenue organization from revenue operations, to customer success, to marketing, to sales, to leadership, and management. But we have a development fee per class, and we have a teaching fee as well. >> Yeah, so, I mean, I think you guys, it's really an underserved market, and then when you think about it, most organizations, they just don't invest in training. And so, I mean, I would think you'd want to take it, I don't know what the right number is, 5, 10% of your sales budget and actually put it on this and the return would be enormous. How do you guys think about the market size? Like I said before, is it E-learning, is it part of the CRM stack? How do you size this market? >> Well, I think for us it's service to people. A highly skilled sales rep with an email address, a phone and a spreadsheet would do really well, okay? You don't need this world-class tech stack to do well in sales. You need the skills to be able to do the job. But the reverse, that's not true, right? An unskilled person with a world-class tech stack won't do well. And so fundamentally, the skill level of your team is the number one most important thing to get right to be successful in revenue. But as I said before, the product market for it to solve that problem, has been pretty terrible. So we see ourselves 100%. And so if you're looking at like a com, you look at Gong, who we've just signed as a customer, which is fantastic. Gong has a technology that helps salespeople do better through call recording. You have Outreach, who is also a customer. They have technologies that help SDRs be more efficient in outreach. And now you have Sales Impact Academy, and we help with skills development of your team, of the entirety of your revenue function. So we absolutely see ourselves as a key part of that stack. In terms of the TAM, 60 million people in sales are on, according to LinkedIn. You're probably talking 150 million people in go to market to include all of the different roles. 50% of the world's companies are B2B. The TAM is huge. But what blows my mind, and this kind of goes back to this why the global education system has overlooked this because essentially if half the world's companies are B2B, that's probably a proxy for the half of the world's GDP, Half of the world's economic growth is relying on the revenue function of half the world's companies, and they don't really know what they're doing, (laughs) which is absolutely staggering. And if we can solve that in a meaningfully meaningful way at massive scale, then the impact should be absolutely enormous. >> So, Mark, no lack of TAM. I know that you guys at Stage 2, you're also very much focused on the metrics. You have a fundamental philosophy that your product market fit and retention should come before hyper growth. So what were the metrics that enticed you to make this investment? >> Yeah, it's a good question, Dave, 'cause that's where we always look first, which I think is a little different than most early stage investors. There's a big, I guess, meme, triple, triple, double, double that's popular in Silicon Valley these days, which refers to triple your revenue in year one, triple your revenue in year two, double in year three, and four, and five. And that type of a hyper growth is critical, but it's often jumped too quickly in our opinion. That there's a premature victory called on product market fit, which kills a larger percentage of businesses than is necessary. And so with all our investments, we look very heavily first at user engagement, any early indicators of user retention. And the numbers were just off the charts for SIA in terms of the customers, in terms of the NPS scores that they were getting on their sessions, in terms of the completion rate on their courses, in terms of the customers that started with a couple of seats and expanded to more seats once they got a taste of the program. So that's where we look first as a strong foundation to build a scalable business, and it was off the charts positive for SIA. >> So how about the competition? If I Google sales training software, I'll get like dozens of companies. Lessonly, and MindTickle, or Brainshark will come up, that's not really a fit. So how do you think about the competition? How are you different? >> Yeah, well, one thing we try and avoid is any reference to sales training, 'cause that really sort of speaks to this very old kind of fashioned way of doing this. And I actually think that from a pure pedagogy perspective, so from a pure learning design perspective, the old fashioned way of doing sales training was pull a whole team off site, usually in a really terrible hotel with no windows for a day or two. And that's it, that's your learning experience. And that's not how human beings learn, right? So just even if the content was fantastic, the learning experience was so terrible, it was just very kind of ineffective. So we sort of avoid kind of like sales training, The likes of MindTickle, we're actually talking to them at the moment about a partnership there. They're a platform play, and we're certainly building a platform, but we're very much about the live instruction and creating the biggest curriculum and the broadest curriculum on the internet, in the world, basically, for revenue teams. So the competition is kind of interesting 'cause there is not really a direct subscription-based live like learning offering out there. There's some similar ish companies. I honestly think at the moment it's kind of status quo. We're genuinely creating a new category of in-work learning for revenue teams. And so we're in this kind of semi and sort of evangelical sort of phase. So really, status quo is one of the biggest sort of competitors. But if you think about some of those old, old fashioned sort of Miller Heimans, and then perhaps even like Sandlers, there's an analogy perhaps here, which is kind of interesting, which is a little bit like Siebel and Salesforce in the sort of late '90s, where in Siebel you have this kind of old way of doing things. It was a little bit ineffective. It was really expensive. Not accessible to a huge space of the market. And Salesforce came along and said, "Hey, we're going to create this cool thing. It's going to be through the browser, it's going to be accessible to everyone, and it's going to be really, really effective." And so there's some really kind of interesting parallels almost between like Siebel and Salesforce and what we're doing to completely kind of upend the sort of the old fashioned way of delivering sort of sales training, if you like. >> And your target customer profile is, you're selling to teams, right? B2B teams, right? It's not for individuals. Is that correct, Paul? >> Currently. Yeah, yeah. So currently we've got a big foothold in series A to series B. So broadly speaking out, our target market currently is really fast growth technology companies. That's the sector that we're really focusing on. We've got a very good strong foothold in series A series B companies. We've now won some much larger later stage companies. We've actually even won a couple of corporates, I can't say names yet, but names that are very, very, very familiar and we're incredibly excited by them, which could end up being thousand plus seat deals 'cause we do this on a per seat basis. But yeah, very much at the moment it's fast growth tech companies, and we're sort of moving up the chain towards enterprise. >> And how do you deal with the sort of maturity curve, if you will, of your students? You've got some that are brand new, just fresh out of school. You've got others that are more seasoned. What do you do, pop them into different points of the curriculum? How do you handle it? >> Yeah we have, I'll say we have about 30 courses right now. We have about another 15 in development where post this fundraise, we want to be able to get to around about 20 courses that we're developing every quarter and getting out to market. So we're literally, we've sort of identified about 20 to 25 key roles across everything within revenue. That's, let's say revenue ops, customer success, account management, sales, engineering, all these different kinds of roles. And we are literally plotting the sort of skills development for these individuals over multiple, multiple years. And I think what we've never ceases to amaze me is actually the breadth of learning in revenue is absolutely enormous. And what kind of just makes you laugh is, this is all of this knowledge that we're now creating it's what companies just hope that their teams somehow acquire through osmosis, through blogs, through events. And it's just kind of crazy that there is... It's absolutely insane that we don't already exist, basically. >> And if I understand it correctly, just from looking at your website, you've got the entry level package. I think it's up to 15 seats, and then you scale up from there, correct? Is it sort of as a seat-based license model? >> Yeah, it's a seat-based model, as Mark mentioned. In some cases we sell, let's say 20 or $30,000 deal out the gate and that's most of the team. That will be maybe a series A, series B deal, but then we've got these land and expand models that are working tremendously well. We have seven, eight customers in Q1 that have doubled their spend Q2. That's the impact that they're seeing. And our net revenue retention number for Q2 is looking like it's going to be 177% to think exceeds companies like Snowflakes. Well, our underlying retention metrics, because people are seeing this incredible impact on teams and performance, is really, really strong. >> That's a nice metric compare with Snowflake (Paul laughs) It's all right. (Dave and Paul laugh) >> So, Mark, this is a larger investment for Stage 2 You guys have been growing and sort of upping your game. And maybe talk about that a little bit. >> Yeah, we're in the middle of Fund II right now. So, Fund I was in 2018. We were doing smaller checks. It was our first time out of the gate. The mission has really taken of, our LP base has really taken off. And so this deal looks a lot like more like our second fund. We'll actually make an announcement in a few weeks now that we've closed that out. But it's a much larger fund and our first investments should be in that 2 to $3 million range. >> Hey, Paul, what are you going to do with the money? What are the use of funds? >> Put it on black, (chuckles) we're going to like- (Dave laughs) >> Saratoga is open. (laughs) (Mark laughs) >> We're going to, look, the curriculum development for us is absolutely everything, but we're also going to be investing in building our own technology platform as well. And there are some other really important aspects to the kind of overall offering. We're looking at building an assessment tool so we can actually kind of like start to assess skills across teams. We certify every course has an exam, so we want to get more robust around the certification as well, because we're hoping that our certification becomes the global standard in understanding for the first time in the industry what individual competencies and skills people have, which will be huge. So we have a broad range of things that we want to start initiating now. But I just wanted to quickly say Stage 2 has been nothing short of incredible in every kind of which way. Of course, this investment, the fit is kind of insane, but the LPs have been extraordinary in helping. We've got a huge number of them are now customers very quickly. Mark and the team are helping enormously on our own kind of like go to market and metrics. I've been doing this for 20 years. I've raised over 100 million myself in venture capital. I've never known a venture capital firm with such value add like ever, or even heard of other people getting the kind of value add that we're getting. So I just wanted to a quick shout out for Stage 2. >> Quite a testimony of you guys. Definitely Stage 2 punches above its weight. Guys, we'll leave it there. Thanks so much for coming on. Good luck and we'll be watching. Appreciate your time. >> Thanks, Dave. >> Thank you very much. >> All right, thank you everybody for watching this Cube conversation. This is Dave Vellante, and we'll see you next time.

>>Hey, everyone. I want to welcome you back. This is our intermission. And let me tell you what a morning we've had for those of you that don't know. I'm, Hayma Ganapati, I'm in product marketing at Docker. And I would just want to quote, actually someone who was in one of the chat rooms and this, I think encapsulates exactly how I feel today, because this is my first Docker con and the quote was from. And he said, I feel like a kid in an ice cream store where I don't know which flavor to choose. I want to go to all of the sessions and I got to tell you that's how I felt. And, you know, um, I want to just do some specific call-ups. Um, first of all, Dana way to keep it real in your interview. I love the cube interview. If you miss that, um, it was really great. >>She talks a lot about, uh, CI CD pipeline and you know, what to do with GoodHub. It was great. Um, I also want to say that I was, uh, slipping back and forth between the community rooms and way to go Brazil obrigado until all of the people who participate in the Brazil room, we had about 250 plus people in that room. And the, the chat window was just going crazy and in the French community room, Vive left hall. So if you've a uncle funny, uh, we had about 150 plus people in that room. So I just want to say that, you know, we've been seeing a lot of participation and I just want to thank everyone for attending and for participating on people have been so kind in the chat rooms, we just want to remind you to stay kind, you know, presenters put a lot of effort into their presentations, so just, you know, offer some positive and supportive critique to them. >>And the other thing I want to mention is all of the countries that we're seeing, all of the participation. So I'm just going to call out a few. We have people from the Netherlands, from Canada, from South Africa, Akron, Ohio, Belgium, Austria, yeah, Ecuador, New Zealand. And he cut up Westchester. Like, I mean, it just goes list goes on and on and on. And I think this really speaks to the power of Docker community. And it's a real testimony to how people from all over the world are in love with Docker technology and are excited to be here. And so I just wanted to thank everyone again and want to remind you that we want to leverage the power of community. And we have a fundraising campaign going on to help, uh, people who are affected by COVID. And you know, some of our big communities, especially in India and Brazil are, have been really affected by COVID. >>So we're asking you to contribute and we'd really like you to participate. Um, we have, uh, the, the link you can see here, Docker donates, you can tweet about it and would love to see the numbers go up for those donations, because, you know, I've personally been affected, had some family members pass away from COVID in India, and I'm sure other people may have stories that firsthand or secondhand. So please do that and let's show what the power of Docker community can do. And before I hand over to, to Peter, I'm just going to read out some of the tweets we've been getting, okay, this Brett and Peter, these are great. Uh, one of the, one of the tweets said dev environments is one of the most exciting features in the past few years. Super excited to try this out. Great, great, great tweet. Yeah. >>I agree to, um, another loving the content that was not your tweets. You can, you can slip me the 20 bucks later. Um, there's another tweet that says loving the content from hashtag Docker con so far fascinating use cases and interesting progress and future directions love that. And then there's another one I'm trying to find it here. Uh, I've been waiting for this so long Docker builds now work on Intel and M one. So keep those tweets coming. We love getting this kind of feedback and we love reading the chat room. So, um, Peter, you know, I attended your, your panel and I love that we were talking about a security and that moving, moving it left. So how did that go for you? >>Uh, it was, it was, uh, it was extremely fun. And for those that are, uh, I think my parents might be watching, so they probably watched it and were like, w this is the most boring thing I've ever seen, but, um, you know, you get a bunch of geeks and, uh, Brett has told me I should use geek instead of nerd, but I, I liked, uh, geek. So you get a bunch of geeks talking about security and coding and, um, what, what, what containers actually are, what vulnerabilities are. Yeah, it was, it was extremely fun. The panel was fantastic. They were very engaging the chat. I mean, I couldn't keep up with the chat. Right. It would just kept flying by, uh, luckily I had a helper to pull off questions, but, um, yeah, it's super exciting. You can, I know we're all remote, but you can just feel that energy, right. It was, it was great. It was great. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. It's super >>Connected. I felt that with your panel to Brett as well, sorry to talk over you there, but yeah. How did, how did it go for you? I, there was a lot of engagement in your session. >>Uh, ditto, like it was just, uh, there was so many questions. We only got to get a fraction of them. I tried to pick themes because, uh, when you talk about continuous testing and integration and all the things that take a part of that, um, you, you end up with lots of, well, what I like is the discussion around opinions, because so much of these pipelines from code on your machine, into production and everything in between, it's really, uh, it's a culture. It turns out to be the description of your culture and how you all perceive testing, how you, what you value in testing. And so that really started to come out as a theme, um, throughout that show. And we, we ran at a time. I was also watching Peters and it was fantastic, but like you think an hour is enough time to cover a topic, but it's just tipping tip of the iceberg kind of stuff. So I think it was super helpful. I learned some things, um, I really enjoyed watching Peters and, uh, yeah, can't wait for the next one. There's >>More than that. And likewise, great. I mean, I know, I know we're w maybe we pat chose it, but it, it was, it was super exciting to watch your panel. They were very Nikos, one of my favorite people in the world, uh, a fellow Austinite, but, um, yeah, I love that too. How you, uh, you were talking about opinions right. And playing off each other. It's, it's always interesting to hear smart people, uh, how they think, right. Yeah. I learned from how they think, right. Yeah. A hundred percent. >>So, all right. So we're, we're, um, what's next? Like, we, we gotta keep this thing going, so I've got to remember that. >>I want to, so I want to talk a bit about some of the panels that are, or the sessions that are coming up and just want to remind people that happened this afternoon. I'm all about use cases. You know, I was a developer for many decades, and it's great to hear how other developers are using the tools. But, uh, as a developer, I always wanted to know how are, what are the end user applications? And so we have two exciting sessions at 1:00 PM. We have sneak and red ventures, and they're going to be talking about how they used Docker containers. The title of the, uh, uh, session is great. An ounce of prevention, curing, insecure, container images. So check that out. And we also have another one at one 30 with Massimo, from AWS and Dexter Legaspi from Sirius XM. And they're going to be talking about a real world application using Docker containers. So I really want you to, to encourage you to attend those. >>Yeah. Um, can I say one really quick? Cause I'm Sue and a shout out to Eric Smalling. He's giving the red ventures talk with our partners. He's awesome. Go check out his, uh, but I'm really excited about Matt. Jarvis's sneak talk around. Uh, I think we might've talked about it earlier. My container image has 500 vulnerabilities vulnerabilities now what, right. I mean, I think as developers, as we're coming into this and dev ops and everybody right. You scan and then you see all these vulnerabilities just shoot by. And you're like, well, what do I do? So Matt, Matt will be addressing that. And he is fantastic. I can go on. There's a bunch of them. >>Yeah. There's a whole bunch of coming up and right up after this, I'm on a live stream with a bunch of panels on get ops. And then after that, Peter will be back. And so stay tuned and thanks for watching during the intermission. And we'll see you soon. >>I'm also leading the women in tech panel attend that. Don't forget to do that. >>Absolutely. Yep. All right. Ciao. Ciao >>For me like my first, oh, I get it about Docker was when I used a SQL server container on my neck book for the first time >>Being able to install Docker desktop, which was the first thing that I did and be able to build this without worrying about any of my software versions that I currently had on my machine. It was >>Awesome. One of the things, because I love the most about Docker is because I write books and I do video training courses to help a lot of people take their first steps with Docker and containers and to get a connection with those people and for them to come back to me and say, do you know what this is so cool, so easy, and it's going to change both my job. And, but also my organization, my team, all of that kind of stuff, change the experience that our customers have with our applications and what our business really puts a smile on my face. If >>You want to use containers, then Docker is the first toys, especially with tools like the mark Docker, compose, you can, uh, easily do your day-to-day job as a developer, or even if you're an ops person, then there are the books of the cloud and other things. So yeah, the idea is that we can go the simplicity one simple task, uh, to, uh, Daugherty mate and make that reuse as many times. Uh, that is one of the cool things I like about my >>Favorite part about Docker is using it as a developer tool. I using Docker desktop, really easy to install, really easy to run. >>Every time I come back to DACA, I love the simplicity of the way that it works, especially on things like security, which I find frustrating and hard. It's just done so seamlessly. And so my favorite thing about DACA is not just that it changed the world in the way that we develop in and ship and build applications and put that. It's just so easy that even the guy, like, I think >>It really is all about finding that aha moment, that hook where Docker really makes sense to you because once you have that moment, then all of a sudden, you, you know, you are on your way to being a Docker power user. >>We need for people to understand this technology better before they can, uh, actually dive deep into that. And Docker makes it easier to explain things, to explain the concept of containers, to explain how containers will work, how you can split your environments, how you can, uh, standardize all your pipelines and so on. It's important that we also take the time to help other people. And I think it's very important that we also give back and that's part of the motto of open sources. How do we give back to other people and how we help other people learn? And I think that's what I'm really passionate about. This whole thing is continuing, uh, giving back to the community. I just >>Hope and has fun at Docker con. And I know that there's a lot of great speakers coming and I will be watching the talks, even though they're happening at 3:00 AM and in my local time zone, um, I'm pretty excited to watch and, uh, hopefully watch more than later on streaming or YouTube or wherever they're going to be. So I hope everyone has fun and learn something and yeah, I don't see how you couldn't have fun.

(bright upbeat music) >> Hi well, this is Dave Vellante. We're digging deeper into the world of database. You know, there are a lot of ways to skin a cat and different vendors take different approaches and we're reaching out to the technologists to get their perspective on the major trends that they're seeing in the market, 'cause we want to understand the different ways in which you can solve problems. So look, if you have thoughts and the technical chops on this topic, I'd love to interview you. Just ping me at at DVellante, on Twitter, a lot of ways to get ahold of me. Anyway, we recently spoke with Andrew Mendelsohn, who is Oracle's EVP and he's responsible for database server technologies. And we talked a lot about Oracle's ADW, Autonomous Data Warehouse. And we looked at the cloud database strategy that Oracle is taking and the company's plans and how they're different maybe from other solutions in the marketplace, but I wanted to dig deeper. And so today we have two members of Mendelsohn's team on The Cube, and we're going to probe a little bit. George Lumpkin, is the Vice President of Autonomous Data Warehouse. And Neil Mendelson is the VP of Modern Data Warehouse, that business for Oracle. They're both 20-year veterans of Oracle. When I reached out to Steve Savannah, who's a colleague of mine for many years, he's always telling me how great Oracle is relative to the competition. So I said, okay, come on The Cube and talk about this, give me your best people. And he said, whatever these two don't know about cloud data warehouse, it isn't worth knowing anyway. So with that said gentlemen, welcome to The Cube. Thanks so much for coming on. >> Thank you. >> Hey, glad to be here. >> So George, let's start with you. And maybe we could recap for some of the viewers who might not be familiar with the interview that I did with Andy. In your words, what exactly is an Autonomous Data Warehouse? Is this cloud native? Is it an Oracle buzzword? What is it? >> Well, I mean, Autonomous Data Warehouse is Oracle's cloud data warehouse. It's a service that built to allow business users to get more value from their data. That's what the cloud data warehouse market is. Autonomous Data Warehouse is absolutely cloud native. This is a huge misconception that people might have when they first sort of hear about something, this service because they think this is a Oracle database, right? Oracle makes databases. This is the same old database I knew from 10 years ago. And that's absolutely not true. We built a cloud native service or data warehousing built it with cloud features. You know, if your understanding of the cloud data warehouse market is based upon how you thought things look 10 years ago, like Snowflake wouldn't have even existed, right? You can't base your understanding of Oracle based upon that. We have a modern service that's highly elastic, provides cloud capabilities like online patching and it's fully autonomous. It's really built the business users so they don't need to worry about administering their database. >> So I want to come back and actually ask you some questions about that, but let me follow up and talk about some of the evolution of the ADW. And where did you start? I think it was 2018, maybe where you came from, where you are today, maybe you can take us through the technological progression and maybe the path you took to get here. >> And so 2018, was when we released the service and made generally available, but of course, you know we started much earlier than that. And this was started within my product management team, and other organization. So we really sat down with a blank sheet of paper and we said, what should the data warehouse in the cloud look like? You know, let's put aside everything that Oracle does for its on-prem customers and think about how the cloud should be different. And the first thing that we said was, well, you know, if Oracle writes the database software, and Oracle builds its own hardware, and Oracle has created its own cloud, why do we need customers to manage a database? And that's where the idea of autonomous database came from. That Oracle is managing the entire ecosystem. And therefore we built a database that we believe it's far and away the simplest to use simplest data warehouse in the market. And that's been our focus since we started with 2018. And that continues to be our focus, looking at more ways that we can make an Autonomous Data Warehouse as simpler and easier for business users to get more value out of their data. >> Awesome, one more question. And actually Neil, you might want to chime in on this as well. So just from a technical perspective, you know forget the marketing claims and all the BS. How do you compare ADW to the so-called born in the cloud data warehouses? You mentioned Snowflake, you know Redshift, is Redshift born in the cloud. Well, it was par XL but Amazon's done some good work around Redshift. I think big query is maybe probably a better example 'cause it was, you know, like Snowflake started in the cloud but how do you compare ADW to some of these other so-called born in the cloud data warehouses? >> I think part of this, you mentioned Redshift wasn't important in the cloud. It was, you know, a code base taken from a prior company that was on-premise company. So they adapted it to the cloud, right? And you know, we have done, as George said, much of the same, which is, you know, our starting point was not you know another company's code base, but our starting point was our own code base. But as George said, it's less about the starting point and it's more about where you envision the end point, right? Which is that, you know, whatever your starting point is, I think we have a fundamental different view of the endpoint. Amazon talks about how they're literally built for you know, a cloud built for developers, right? You know, builders, right? And you know Oracle wasn't first in the infrastructure business, we entered through applications business. And all of a sudden, you know we began taking on 100s of 1000s and 100s of even more customers that were SAS customers. Underneath was the database and all the infrastructure. One of the things that we took away from that was that we couldn't possibly hire enough people DBA, to manage all the infrastructure below our applications customers. So one of the things that influenced this is that, you know customers expect SAS applications to just take care of themselves, right? So we had to essentially modify the infrastructure to allow it to do so as well, right? And we're bringing that capability to those people who, you know, may or may not have an application, but their interest is, you know more of this self-service agility type of aspect. >> So it seems to me and Georgia was sort of alluding to this before. I mean, when you mentioned Snowflake a couple of times, and then Neil, something you just said, I'm going to pick up on is you've been around for a long time. And you know, when I talked to the Snowflake people, they know Oracle, a lot of them came from Oracle. They understand I think how you can't just build Oracle overnight and build in the capabilities that Oracle has and the recovery. And you talk to customers and you know you are the gold standard of, you know especially mission critical databases, so I get that. But now you just sort of hit on it, is it takes a lot of people and skill to run the database. So that's the problem that you're saying you were attacking, is that, am I getting that right? >> Right, right, so the people that you talked about who originally built Snowflake came from Oracle, but they came from Oracle more than a decade ago. So their context is over a decade old, right? In the meantime, we've been busy, you know building a economies and many other capabilities, right? Their view of Oracle is that view that was back more than 10 years ago, right? They're still adding capability. So a really good example of this illustration is Oracle as you said, it's the most capable system that's out there and has been for many years. We've been focusing on how do we simplify that and how do we use machine learning embedded within the system itself? Because core to the concept of autonomous is that inside, is this machine learning system that's continually improving, right? That's the whole notion. Where in Snowflakes case, they're still adding functionality. Last year, they added masking which you know functionality they didn't have, but when they added the capability, they added it without, you know, the ability for a business user to actually take advantage of it. There's no capability for a business user to actually find the information that needs to be masked. And then after the information is found, you require a technical person to actually implement the mask. In Oracle's case, we've had masking and those capabilities for a long time, our focus was to be able to provide a simple tool that a business user can use that doesn't need technical or security experience. Find the data that needs to be masked PII data, and then hit a button and have it masked for you. So, you know, they're still, you know, without this notion of a strategy to move toward the system to heal itself and to manage itself, they're just going to continue. As they continue to add more capability, they will in turn add more complexity. What we're trying to do is take complexity out while others are adding it in, its an ironic twist. >> It is an ironic twist. It is interesting to look at it. And I don't want to make this about Snowflake. But I mean, Hey, I like what they're doing. I like them. I know the management, they're growing like crazy and you know and the customers tell me, hey, this is really simple. And it's simple by design. I mean, to your point over time it's going to get, you know, more and more complex. I was talking to Andy, I think it was Andy. He was saying, you know, they've got the different sizes you've got to shape some, you know, they call it t-shirt sizes. And I was like, okay, I got a small, I got a medium and a large, maybe that's okay. But you guys would say, we give more granular you know, a scaling, I guess is the point there, right? I mean George, I don't know if you can comment on that. It just a different strategy. You've got a company that was founded well, I guess, 2015 versus one that was founded in 1977. So you would think the latter has, you know way more function than the former, but George, anything you'd add to this conversation? >> Yeah, I mean, I'm always amazed that there are these database systems that are perceived as cloud native and they do things like sell you database sizes by t-shirt sizes, as you described. I mean, if you look at Snowflake, it's small, medium, large extra large too extra large, but they're all factors of two. You're getting a size of your database of two, four, eight, six, 32, et cetera. Or if you look at AWS Redshift, you're buying your database by the nodes. You say, how many nodes do you want? And in both those cases, this is a cloud native. This is saying we have some hardware underneath our database and we need you, Mr. Customer, to tell us how many servers you want. That's not the way the clouds should work, right? And I think this is one of the things that we did with Autonomous Data Warehouse. We said, no, that's not how the rules should work. We still run our database on hardware, we still have nodes and servers. We should tell the customer, how many CPU's you would like for your data warehouse? You want 16? Sounds good. You want 18? Yeah, we can give you 18. We're not, you know, we're not selling these to you in bundles of eight or bundles of six or powers of two. We'll sell you what you need. That's what cloud elasticity should be. Not this idea that oh, we are a database that should be managed by IT. IT already knows about servers and nodes. Therefore it's okay if we tell people your cloud data warehouse runs on nodes. Within Oracle as Neil said, we wouldn't. The data warehouse should be used by the people who want to actually analyze their data, should be used by the business users. >> Well, and so the other piece of cloud native that has become popular, is this idea of separating compute from storage and being able to scale those two independent of each other which is pretty important, right? Because you don't want to have to pay for a chunk of compute if you don't need the storage and vice versa. Maybe you could talk about that, how you solve that problem, to the extent that you solve that problem. >> Absolutely, we do separate compute print storage with Autonomous Data Warehouse. When you come in and you say, I need 10 CPU's for my data warehouse and I need two terabytes of storage. Those are two dependent decisions that you make. So they're not tied together in any way. And, you are exactly right, Dave, this is how things should work in the cloud. You should pay for what you need, pay for what you use, not be constrained by having big sets of storage you have to use for a given amount CPU or vice versa. >> Okay, go ahead Neil, please. >> Oh, just to add on to that, you know, the other aspect that comes into play is that, you know, so your starting point is X, whatever that happens to be. Over time that changes. And we all know that workloads vary right throughout the day throughout the month, throughout the year by various events that occur maybe the close of the year, close of business at the end of the quarter, it maybe you know, holiday season for retailers and so forth. So, you know, it's not only the starting point, but how do you actually manage the growth, right? scaling up and scaling down, right? In our case, we tried, as George said, we abstracted that completely for the customer basically said check a box, which has auto scale. So, if the system is required more resources, will apply more resources. And we do so instantaneously without any downtime whatsoever, right? Because you know, again, you know, people think in terms of these systems have now become business critical. So if the business critical, you can't just shut down to expand. Imagine during the holiday season is your business is ramping up. And then all of a sudden you have to scale, right? And your system either shuts down, reboots itself, right? Or it slows down to the point that it's a crawl and all your customers get frustrated. We don't do that. You click a button, auto scale and we take care of it for you smoothing out those lumps, right? Without any technical assistance. And again, if you look at Redshift, you look at all these various systems, they require technical assistance to be able to figure out not only your initial data, but how you scale out over time. >> Interesting, okay. So all is said, you know, a lot of companies are using Azure, AWS Google for infrastructure, why would these customers not just use their database? Why would they switch to Oracle or ADW? >> Well, I think Neil will probably add something. I want to start by saying a huge number of our existing Autonomous Data Warehouse customers today are customers of AWS and Azure. They are pulling data from AWS and Azure and bringing it into an Oracle Autonomous Data Warehouse. And we built feature Joe, I focused on product managers. We feel featured for that. And so it's perfectly viable and it it's almost commonplace, that the very largest enterprises to be doing that. But then coming to the question of why would they want to do it? I don't know, Neil, you want to take that? >> Yeah, yeah, so one of the things that we've really see emerge here is you know, a data warehouse doesn't generate the transactions on itself, right? So the data has to come from somewhere, right? And you ask yourself, well, where does the data come from? Well, in a lot of cases, that data is coming from applications and increasingly SAS applications that the company has deployed. And those are, you know, HR applications, you know, CRM applications, you know ERP applications and many vertical applications. In Oracle's case, what we've done is we say, okay, well, we have the application, this transactional thing, we have the infrastructure from the economist data warehouse, why don't we just make it really, really easy? And if you're an Oracle applications customer, that's already running on the Oracle cloud, we will essentially provide you the ability to create a data warehouse from that information, right? With a clicker, with largely either with a product and service or quick start kit. You don't start from scratch, you start from where you are. And there are many cases that where you are has data, very much as George mentioned before telcos, banks, insurance companies, governments, all of the data that they want to analyze, a lot of that data guess where it's coming from, it's coming from Oracle applications. So it makes sense to be able to have both the data that's generated and the data that's being analyzed close to the same place. Because at the end of the day, the payoff pitch for any form of analysis is not coming up with an insight, oh, I realized X, Y, Z, but it's rather putting the insight directly into production. And that's where, when you have this stuff spread all over God's greener trying to go from insight into action can take months, if not years. The reason that a lot of customers are now turning to us is that they need to be much more agile and they need to be able to turn that insight into action immediately without it being a science project. >> Okay, thank you for that. So let's tick them off. Like what are the top things that customers can get from Oracle Autonomous Data Warehouse, that they couldn't get from say a Snowflake or Redshift or Big query or SQL server or something yet. I appreciate you guys' willingness to talk about the competition. Let's tick them off. What are the most important things that we should know about that they can't get elsewhere? >> So first, I mean, we already talked about a couple of what we think are really the major themes of Autonomous Data Warehouse. The services is autonomous. You don't need to worry about managing it, anyone can manage the data warehouse. The service is elastic. You can buy and pay for what you use. You know, those are just what we think of as being the general characteristics of Autonomous Data Warehouse. But you know, when you come to your question of, hey, what do we give that other vendors don't provide? And I think the one angle that Autonomous Data Warehouse does a really good job is and Neil was just discussing this, it focuses on the business problems, right? We have years and years of experience with not just database security, but data security, right? You know, every cloud vendor can say, oh we encrypt all your data, we have these compliance certifications, all of these things. And what they're saying is, we are securing your database, we are securing your database infrastructure. At Oracle of course has to do those as well. But where we go further, is we say, hey, no, no, no, no, no, we know what business users want. They want to secure their data. What kind of data am I storing? Do I have PII data? Could you detect whether there's PII data and tell me about it in case some user loaded something that I wasn't aware of? What kind of privileges did I give my users? Can you make sure that those privileges are right? And can you tell me if users were given privileges that they're not using maybe I need to take them away. These are the problems that Oracle's tackled in security over the last 20 years. It's really more about the business problem. Yeah, some other, oh, go ahead. >> Oh, I'm sorry, I got so many questions for you guys. We'll get back to that 'cause it sounds like there's a long list. (laughs) >> We have nowhere to go.(laughs) I want to pick up with George on something you said about elasticity. Is it true pay by the drink? Do you have a consumption pricing? I mean, can I dial it up and dial it down whenever I want? How does that work? >> Yes, I mean not to be too many technical details, but you say, I want 14 CPU's that's what your database runs at. You can change that default number anytime you want online, right? You can say, okay, I'm coming up on my quarter end, I'm going to raise my database 20 CPU. We just do it on the ply. We just adjust the size--- >> What about the other way? What about coming down? Can I go down to one? >> You go down, you can go down to one--- >> And you're not going to charge me for 14 if I go down to one? >> No, if you set it down to one, you get charged for one, right? >> Okay, that's good, that's good. >> In the background, you know we are also allowing levels of auto scaling. You say, if you say hey, I want to charged for 14 and Oracle, can you take care of all those scaling for me? So if a bunch of people jump on at 5:00 PM, to run some queries, 'cause the executive said, hey, I need a report by tomorrow morning. We'll take care of that for you. We'll let you go beyond 14 and only charge you for exactly what you use for those extra CPU's beyond 14. >> Okay, thank you. Go ahead, Neil. >> And maybe, if we add, you know, Andy talked about this when he was on that show with you last week, right? And you know, he talked about this concept of a converged database, but let me talk about it in the way that we see it from a business point of view, right? You know, business users are looking to, you know ask a variety of questions, right? And those questions need to be able to relate to both you know, the customer themselves, the relationship that the customer might have with others. You know, today we talk about like the social network and who are influencers within that, and then where they actually conduct business. Which is really, you know, in every case, it's on some form of increasingly on a mobile device. So in that case, you want to be able to ask questions, which is not only, you know, who should I focus on, but who are the key influencers within this community, right? That could influence others? And does that happen in a particular place in time? Meaning, you know, let's say pre COVID, it might happen at a coffee shop or somewhere else. We can answer all of those questions and more inside of the autonomous system without having to replicate the data out to one system that does graph and another system that does spatial, a third system that does this. It's like a business user. It's like, wait a minute, come on, you're trying to tell me that I need a separate system and replicate the data just be able to understand location? The answer in many cases is yes, you have to have separate, which a business person says, well, that's absurd. Can't I just do this all in one system? You can with Oracle. >> So look, I'm not trying to be the snarky journalist or analyst here but I want to keep pushing on this issue. So here we are, it's 2021. It's April. We're like a third of the way through the year. And so far, nobody has come out and said, okay, we're going to deliver Autonomous Data Warehouse just like Oracle. So I asked myself, well, why is Oracle doing this? You guys answered, you know, to reduce the labor cost. But I asked myself, is this how they're solving the problem of keeping relevant a database that spans five decades? And you guys said, no, no, this is cloud native born in the cloud, you know started essentially with a new mindset. But is this a trend that others are going to follow? You know, and if so, why haven't we seen it this idea of a self-driving databases? Why is it right now unique to Oracle? What's really going on here? >> So I think there's a really interesting thing that's happening, it's not visible outside of Oracle. It's very visible for those of us who work inside of the development organization. You know, if you look at Oracle, I can tell you bad. I mean, I think it's safe to presume Oracle has the largest database development organization on the planet, right? I mean, it was kind of the largest database or large most used database for the past two decades. And what's happened is we pivoted to building a cloud platform. We're not just building a database, we're taking all of these resources that we have with all these expertise of building database software. We were saying, we now have to build the platform to run and manage the database software in the cloud, right? And it's a little bit like, you know I think to make people relate to it a little better, there was a really good quote from Elon Musk couple of years ago, talking about Tesla. Like everyone looks at the car, right? Tesla, the car is really great. The hard part of this, is building the factory, and that's analogy holds for Oracle. What we're building is the cloud battery. And what we have transitioned is our database development organization is now building as robust a cloud as possible. So that you know, when we increase the number of databases by 10 X, we don't add 10 X, more cloud ops people to manage it. We are ramping up developer building features to automate the management of our cloud infrastructure. And with that automation, we get better ability, less errors, more security. We give benefits to our cloud data warehouse customers with it. And I think this something really important to realize, right? We build database software. We build, you know, an engineered system built for databases called exit data, and we build a cloud platform. And these are really equal tiers in what we are building and developing today in 2021 from Oracle database development organization. >> Well, you mentioned exit data, I want to shift gears here a little bit and talk about we're seeing this hybrid cloud on-premises clouds, they're finally gaining some traction. I got to give props Oracle's cloud of customers really the early to that game. I think it was the first in my view anyway, true same same vision, took you guys a little while to get there but it was the right vision. And the thing I always say about Oracle people don't understand is Oracle invest in R and D, your chairman is also the CTO. You guys are serious about technical investment so you know, that's where innovation comes from. But, and we heard during your recent earnings call, we heard some positive comments on this. So what's your take on delivering autonomous data warehouse on-prem and how do you compare with say Snowflake and AWS in that area? Snowflake, Frank Slootman, I've had him on record saying we're not going to do that halfway house. Forget it, we are always going to be in the cloud. We're never going to do an on-prem installation. AWS, we'll see to date. Yeah, I don't think you can get a Redshift for instance in outposts, but maybe that'll come. But, how do you see that emerging? What's your difference there? Maybe Neil, you could talk about that. >> Yeah, so, you know, I think, you know, customers had a lot of regulated industries, right? Still have concerns about the public cloud. And I think that when you hear statements like, you know, we're never going to do, you know, on-prem. Well, economist cloud at customer, it's not a classic on-prem solution. What it is, it's a piece of our cloud delivered in your data center. It's still the cloud software. Oracle manages it, Oracle, you know, the system itself manages itself and we take care of that responsibility so you don't have to. The differences is that we can make that available in a public cloud as well as in a private cloud, right? And there are so many use cases, you know, that you can imagine from a regulatory point of view, or just from a comfort point of view, where customers are choosing, they want the ability to decide for themselves where to place this stuff as compared to only having one option, right? And you know, you look at a lot of what's happening in the emerging world where, you know, there are a lot of places in the world that may not have, you know, really really high-speed internet connections to make, you know a public cloud feasible. Well, in that case, whether you're talking about, you know an oil rig or you're talking about something else, right? We can put that capability where it needs to be close to the operation that you're talking about, irrespective of the deployment option. >> Well, let me just follow up on that because I think it's interesting that, you know Frank Slootman said that to me, I oftentimes around AWS I say, never say never 'cause they'll surprise you, right? And I've learned that with Andy Jassy, but one of the things that seems difficult for on-prem, would be to separate that compute from storage because you have to actually physically move in resources. I think about Vertica Xeon mode. It's not quite the same, same. So, I mean, in that regard, maybe you're not the same same. And maybe that dogma makes sense for some companies. For Oracle, obviously you've got a huge on-prem state, thoughts on that. >> So, you know, clearly, you know, so typically what we'll do is that we'll provide additional hardware beyond what the customer might expect and that allows them to use the capabilities of expansion, right? We also have the ability to allow the customer to expand from their cloud of customer into the public cloud as well, of which we have a lot of those situations. So we can provide a level of elasticity, even on-premises by over provisioning the systems, well not charging the customer until they use only based on what they consume, right? Combined together with the ability for us to augment their usage in the public cloud as well, right? Where others, again are constraint, right? Because they only have a single option. >> Right, well, you've got the capital resources to do that as well which is not to be overlooked. Okay, I mean, I've blown our time here but you guys are so awesome. (laughs) I appreciate the candor. So last question and George, if you want to throw in a couple of those other tick boxes, you know the differentiators, please feel free, but for both of you, if you can leave customers with the one key point or the top key points on how Oracle Autonomous Data Warehouse can really help them improve their business in the near term, what would they be? Maybe George, you could start and then Neil you bring us home. >> Yeah, I mean, I think that, as I said before, our starting point with Autonomous Data Warehouse, is how can we build a better customer experience in the cloud? And I think, and this continues throughout 2021, and I think that the big theme here is the business users should be able to get value directly from their data warehouses. We talked a few times about how a line of business user should be able to manage their own data, should be able to load their own data warehouse, should be able to start to work with their own data, should be able to run machine learning, model of build machine learning, models against that data and all of that built in, and delivered in Autonomous Data Warehouse. And we think that this is, you know we see our customer organizations large and small, the light bulbs starting to go on how easy the services to use to and how completed it is for helping business users get value from their data. And just adding onto what George said, you know, the development organization has done a tremendous job of really simplifying this cooperation. What we also tried to do that on the business side. You know, when a customer has an on-prem situation, they're looking at moving to the cloud, whether lift and shift or modernized, they're looking at costs, they're looking at risk and they're looking at time. So one of the things we look at is how do we mitigate that? How do we mitigate the cost, the risk and the time? Well, this week, I think we announced our new cloud lift program and the cloud lift program is what Oracle will provide to its cloud engineering resources around the world is that we will do, we will take the cost, the risk and the time out of the equation and Oracle will work directly with the customer or the customer's partner of choice, maybe an Accenture or Deloitte, and we will move them, right? You know, at little or no cost, most cases there's no cost whatsoever, right? We mitigate the risk because we're taking the risk on. And we've built a lot of automated tools to make that go very quickly, right? And securely, and then finally, we do it in a very very short amount of time as compared to what you would need to do with, you know 'cause there is no Redshift on-premises. There is no Snowflake on-premises. You have to convert from what you already have to that, right? And, but the company beyond the technological barriers that George talked about were also trying to smooth the operation so that a business itself can make a decision that not only did they not need the technical people to operate it, they won't need an entire consulting contract with millions of dollars in order to actually do the movement to the cloud. >> Well, guys, I really appreciate you coming on the program and again, your candor to speak openly about you know, your approach, the competitors. And so it's great having you, really really thank you for, for your time. >> Appreciate it. >> And thank you for watching everybody. Look, if you guys want to come back, go toe to toe with these guys, say the word you're always welcome to come on The Cube. One thing for sure, Oracle are serious, when it comes to database. Thank you for watching. This is Dave Vellante. We'll see you next time. (bright music)

>> Hello everyone, welcome to the special Cube conversation. I'm John foray with Dave Volante. We're known as theCube guys. We're doing a lot of Cube events over the past year with COVID in a virtual format and we really miss being onsite and being at the events extracting the signal from the noise. Dave, we've got some big news, we're announcing our Cube On Cloud series of virtual events. We're going to do in combination to the hybrid format of theCube when it comes back to, when theCube is coming back which we look like (indistinct), we'll be implementing theCube virtual format. And so Dave, Cube On Cloud Startups is our first inaugural event coming up this month. >> Well, I'm really excited John, because of course as you well know, in the early days of Cloud, we really doubled down on our content focus. And I think if you're a customer, firmly I believe CIO, CTOs, you have to have a portion of your portfolio that is really driven toward innovation and that really comes from startups. And that's really what we're going to feature today. We're talking about startups from tens of millions to hundreds of millions of ARR. I think if you're an investor, there's some great opportunities here. If you're a technologist, you might be trying to figure out, okay, "where's the next great place that I want to work?" And I think really it's all enabled by the Cloud and the Cloud is changing John, right? It's evolving from what was just core infrastructure storage servers, networking to really now driving transformative business value. And that's what this event is going to be all about. >> And what's exciting Dave, I want to share with the folks out there, you see theCube. you've seen us on all the channels, Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, all over the internet. Now with the virtual, we going to bring that together. And every quarter we're going to do a quarterly startup hot Cuban Cloud Startup event every quarter, four times a year. So, join us, we want to be part of our community. Be part of the conversation, theCube 365 virtual format is interactive, it's engaging. It's our own clubhouse, it's our own place to engage with you. If you want to engage with us, this is the time to do it. Or if you want to sit back and consume some of the great content, do that. Our first event on the 24th is with aWS and their sponsored showcase startups. We're going to be featuring 10 of the hottest Cloud startups obviously all around data and machine learning. And we're going to feature those 10, we're going to introduce the world to them, unpack them, talk to the founders and this top management of teams and understand their secret sauce, their competitive advantage and how they're going to be successful in the enterprise in Cloud. But we've also got a great keynote program to kick it off. We're going to have Jeff Barr who's legendary in the developer and Cloud community. He's with aWS. He does a lot of their developer. He writes all the blog posts announcing all the great products at aWS. If you're in the Cloud, visit, you know who Jeff Barr is. He's a legend. We got Jerry chin, Cube alumni. He's a partner at Greylock, tier one venture capital firm, and Michael Liebow who's a partner at McKinsey. And McKinsey is talking to all the C-suites Dave, they're the ones setting the table. And just recently came out with a Cloud report called, "Trillion Dollar Market Opportunity." Of course, we wrote Trillion Dollar Baby Cloud Ambition for Andy Jassy in 2015. We're going to tie that together. And of course, when you come to the event and join us, you get a free copy of that report. So, Dave-- >> And Don't forget Ben Haynes. He's going to bring the practitioner perspective which we're really excited about. And I'm glad you made that shout out to the Cube community because as you know, it's not just coming to the event and doing some chat. Do that, lay down your knowledge because the next show we're going to have you on live interview, you that's what we're all about. Bringing our community together, bringing you in and interacting with you, not just on chat or email or whatever but actually making you part of the program. >> Yeah, it's not a webinar Dave, these aren't webinars, webinars are old they're dying. Webinars are great for sales tools. You do those every day if you're a sales person or a company. This is different. We're talking about making it an immersive and interactive, engaging, virtually. This is going to be a great compliment. Certainly when the events come back and we're looking forward to it. I can't tell you Dave how many times people want to chat with me on Twitter, I'm not available, time zone around the world. Now, you can come to our events and engage directly with us and consume, but also we'll call you up. We're going to have sessions, maybe have some Ad hoc femoral conversations, set up your own little clubhouse with us and share your knowledge on the Cube. The Cube going virtual. Virtualization Dave, as we were joking during the pandemic is one of the upsides for what happened this year. And I got to say, I'm really, really excited because this brings a new format for us to bring to people. So, I'm really looking forward to it. >> Yeah, me too, John. So give us the details. Date, time, we've got a, I think we've got a screenshot but we'll pull that up and show people. So, there's a site. What's the dates again, John? >> This is on going to happen on March 24th, >> 9: 00 AM Pacific to 1:00 PM, it's a morning program. Again, it's a featured conference with the hot stars. We're going to feature, We're going to do a keynote session and then we're going to have the breakouts with all the startups. So, it can jump into the rooms find the startups you like and talk to them. And then a closing fireside chat with Ben Haynes who's a practitioner, CIO Perspectives, CXL Perspective as well as executives in the industry. So, we're going to wrap that up at the end of the day. So, great program. Good keynote on what ways are happening? What's the top trends and then ending fireside chats. Should be a great day, very cool. And of course it's virtual. So, you can do a fly by, you can come hang out with us and also come back. it's always going to be on 24/7, 365. So, that is the Cube On Cloud startups, March 24th. Join us and join our community, thank you.

>> From The Cube Studios in Palo Alto and Boston connecting with thought-leaders all around the world, this is a Cube Conversation. >> Hello, everyone, and welcome to this Cube Conversation, I'm Dave Vellante. Now, you know I love data, and today we're going to introduce you to a new data and analytical platform, and we're going to take it to the world of cloud database and data warehouses. And with me is Sagar Kadakia who's the head of Enterprise IT (indistinct) 7Park Data. Sagar, welcome back to the Cube. Good to see you. >> Thank you so much, David. I appreciate you having me back on. >> Hey, so new gig for you, how's it going? Tell us about 7Park Data. >> Yeah. Look, things are going well. It started at about two months ago, just a, you know, busy. I had a chance last, you know a few months to kind of really dig into the dataset. We have a tremendous amount of research coming out in Q4 Q1 around kind of the public cloud database market public cloud analytics market. So, you know, really looking forward to that. >> Okay, good. Well, let's bring up the first slide. Let's talk about where this data comes from. Tell us a little bit more about the platform. Where's the insight. >> Yeah, absolutely. So I'll talk a little about 7Park and then we'd kind of jump into the data a little bit. So 7Park was founded in 2012 in terms of differentiator, you know with other alternative data firms, you know we use NLP machine learning, you know AI to really kind of, you know, structure like noisy and unstructured data sets really kind of generate insight from that. And so, because a lot of that know how we ended up being acquired by Vista back in 2018. And really like for us, you know the mandate there is to really, you know look across all their different portfolio companies and try to generate insight from all the data assets you know, that these portfolio companies have. So, you know, today we're going to be talking about you know, one of the data sets from those companies it's that cloud infrastructure data set. We get it from one of the portfolio companies that you know, helps organizations kind of manage and optimize their cloud spend. It's real time data. We essentially get this aggregated daily. So this certainly different than, you know your traditional providers maybe giving you quarterly or kind of by annual data. This is incredibly granular, real time all the way down to the invoice level. So within this cloud infrastructure dataset we're tracking several billion dollars worth of spend across AWS, Azure and GCP. Something like 350 services across like 20 plus markets. So, you know, security machine learning analytics database which we're going to talk about today. And again like the granularity of the KPIs I think is kind of really what kind of you know, differentiates this dataset you know, with just within database itself, you know we're tracking over 20 services. So, you know, lots to kind of look forward to kind of into Q4 and Q1. >> So, okay. So the main spring of your data is if I'm a customer and I there's a service out there there are many services like this that can help me optimize my spend and the way they do that is I basically connect their APIs. So they have visibility on what the transactions that I'm making my usage statistics et cetera. And then you take that and then extrapolate that and report on that. Is that right? >> Exactly. Yeah. We're seeing just on this one data set that we're going to talk about today, it's something like six 700 million rows worth of data. And so kind of what we do is, you know we kind of have the insight layer on top of that or the analytics layer on top of all that unstructured data, so that we can get a feel for, you know a whole host of different kind of KPIs spend, adoption rates, market share, you know product size, retention rates, spend, you know, net price all that type of stuff. So, yeah, that's exactly what we're doing. >> Love it, there's more transparency the better. Okay. So, so right, because this whole world of market sizing has been very opaque you know, over the years, and it's like you know, backroom conversations, whether it's IDC, Gartner who's got what don't take, you know and the estimations and it's very, very, you know it's not very transparent so I'm excited to see what you guys have. Okay. So, so you have some data on the public cloud and specifically the database market that you want to share with our audience. Let's bring up the next graphic here. What are we looking at here Sagar? What are these blue lines and red lines what's this all about? >> Yeah. So and look, we can kind of start at the kind of the 10,000 foot view kind of level here. And so what we're looking at here is our estimates for the entire kind of cloud database market, including data warehousing. If you look all the way over to the right I'll kind of explain some of these bars in a minute but just high level, you know we're forecasting for this year, $11.8 billion. Now something to kind of remember about that is that's just AWS, Azure and GCP, right? So that's not the entire cloud database market. It's just specific to those three providers. What you're looking at here is the breakout and blue and purple is SQL databases and then no SQL databases. And so, you know, to no one's surprise here and you can see, you know SQL database is obviously much larger from a revenue standpoint. And so you can see just from this time last year, you know the database market has grown 40% among these three cloud providers. And, you know, though, we're not showing it here, you know from like a PI perspective, you know database is playing a larger and larger role for all three of these providers. And so obviously this is a really hot market, which is why, you know we're kind of discussing a lot of the dynamics. You don't need to Q and Q Q4 and Q1 >> So, okay. Let's get into some of the specific firm-level data. You have numbers that you want to share on Amazon Redshift and Google BigQuery, and some comments on Snowflake let's bring up the next graphic. So tell us, it says public cloud data, warehousing growth tempered by Snowflake, what's the data showing. And let's talk about some of the implications there. >> Yeah, no problem. So yeah, this is kind of one of the markets, you know that we kind of did a deep dive in tomorrow and we'll kind of get this, you know, get to this in a few minutes, we're kind of doing a big CIO panel kind of covering data, warehousing, RDBMS documents store key value, graph all these different database markets but I thought it'd be great, you know just cause obviously what's occurring here and with snowflake to kind of talk about, you know the data warehousing market, you know, look if you look here, these are some of the KPIs that we have you know, and I'll kind of start from the left. Here are some of the orange bars, the darker orange bars. Those are our estimates for AWS Redshift. And so you can see here, you know we're projecting about 667 million in revenue for Redshift. But if you look at the lighter arm bars, you can see that the service went from representing about 2% of you know, AWS revenue to about 1.5%. And we think some of that is because of Snowflake. And if we kind of, take a look at some of these KPIs you know, below those bar charts here, you know one of the things that we've been looking at is, you know how are longer-term customer spending and how are let's just say like newer customers spending, so to speak. So kind of just like organic growth or kind of net expansion analysis. And if you look at on the bottom there, you'll see, you know customers in our dataset that we looked at, you know that were there 3Q20 as well as 3Q19 their spend on AWS Redshift is 23%. Right? And then look at the bifurcation, right? When we include essentially all the new customers that onboard it, right after 3Q19, look at how much they're bringing down the spend increase. And it's because, you know a lot of spend that was perhaps meant for Redshift is now going to Snowflake. And look, you would expect longer-term customers to spend more than newer customers. But really what we're doing is here is really highlighting the stark contrast because you have kind of back to back KPIs here, you know between organic spend versus total spend and obviously the deceleration in market share kind of coming down. So, you know, something that's interesting here and we'll kind of continue tracking that. >> Okay. So let's maybe come back to this mass Colombo questions here. So the start with the orange side. So we're talking about Snowflake being 667 million. These are your estimates extrapolated based on what we talked about earlier, 1.5% of the AWS portfolio of course you see things like, they continue to grow. Amazon made a bunch of storage announcements last week at the first week of re-invent (indistinct) I mean just name all kinds of databases. And so it's competing with a lot of other services in the portfolio and then, but it's interesting to see Google BigQuery a much larger percentage of the portfolio, which again to me, makes sense people like BigQuery. They like the data science components that are built in the machine learning components that are built in. But then if you look at Snowflake's last quarter and just on a run rate basis, it's over there over $600 million. Now, if you just multiply their last quarter by four from a revenue standpoint. So they got Redshift in their sites, you know if this is, you know to the extent this is the correct number and I know it's an estimate but I haven't seen any better numbers out there. Interesting Sagar, I mean Snowflake surpassed the value of snowflakes or past service now last Friday, it's probably just in trading today you know, on Monday it's maybe Snowflake is about a billion dollars less than the in value than IBM. So you're saying snowflake in a lot of attention, post IPO the thing is even exploded more. I mean, it's crazy. And I presume that's rippled into the customer interest areas. Now the ironic thing here of course, is that that snowflake most of its revenue comes from AWS running on AWS at the same time, AWS and or Redshift and snowflake compete. So you have this interesting dynamic going on. >> Yeah. You know, we've spoken to so many CIOs about kind of the dynamics here with Redshift and BigQuery and Snowflake, you know as it kind of pertains to, you know, Redshift and Snowflake. I think, you know, what I've heard the most is, look if you're using Redshift, you're going to keep using it. But if you're new to data warehousing kind of, so to speak you're going to move to Snowflake, or you're going to start with Snowflake, you know, that and I think, you know when it comes to data warehousing, you're seeing a lot of decisions kind of coming from, you know, bottom up now. So a lot of developers and so obviously their preference is going to be Snowflake. And then when you kind of look at BigQuery here over to the right again, like look you're seeing revenue growth, but again, as a as a percentage of total, you know, GCP revenue you're seeing it come down and look, we don't show it here. But another dynamic that we're seeing amongst BigQuery is that we are seeing adoption rates fall versus this time last year. So we think, again, that could be because of Snowflake. Now, one thing to kind of highlight here with BigQuery look it's kind of the low cost alternative, you know, so to speak, you know once Redshift gets too expensive, so to speak, you know you kind of move over to, to BigQuery and we kind of put some price KPIs down here all the way at the bottom of the chart, you know kind of for both of them, you know when you kind of think about the net price per kind of TB scan, you know, Redshift does it pro rate right? It's five bucks or whatever you, you know whatever you scan in, whereas, you know GCP and get the first terabyte for free. And then everything is prorated after that. And so you can see the net price, right? So that's the price that people actually pay. You can see it's significantly lower that than Redshift. And again, you know it's a lower cost alternative. And so when you think about, you know organizations or CIO's that want to save some money certainly BigQuery, you know, is an option. But certainly I think just overall, you know, Snowflake is is certainly having, you know, an impact here and you can see it from, you know the percentage of total revenue for both these coming down. You know, if we look at other AWS database services or you mentioned a few other services, you know we're not seeing that trend, we're seeing, you know percentage of total revenue hang in or accelerate. And so that's kind of why we want to point this out as this is something unique, you know for AWS and GCP where even though you're seeing growth, it's decelerating. And then of course you can kind of see the percentage of revenue represents coming down. >> I think it's interesting to look at these two companies and then of course Snowflake. So if you think about Snowflake and BigQuery both of those started in the cloud they were true born in the cloud databases. Whereas Redshift was a deal that Amazon did, you know with parxl back in the day, one time license fee and then they re-engineered it to be kind of cloud based. And so there is some of that historical o6n-prem baggage in there. I know that AWS did a tremendous job in rearchitecting that but nonetheless, so I'll give you a couple of examples. If you go back to last year's reinvent 2019 of course Snowflake was really the first to popularize this idea of separating compute from storage and even compute from compute, which is kind of nuance. So I won't go into that, but the idea being you can dial up or dial down compute as you need it you can even turn off compute in the world of Snowflake and just, you know, you're paying an S3 for storage charges. What Amazon did last reinvent was they announced the separation of compute and storage, but what the way they did it was they did it with a tiering architecture. So you can't ever actually fully turn off the compute, but it's great. I mean, it's customers I've talked to say, yes I'm saving a lot of money, you know, with this approach. But again, there's these little nuances. So what Snowflake announced this year was their data cloud and what the data cloud is as a whole new architecture. It's based on this global mesh. It lives across both AWS and Azure and GCP. And what Snowflake has done is they've taken they've abstracted the complexity of the clouds. So you don't even necessarily have to know what you're running on. You have to worry about it any Snowflake user inside of that data cloud if given access can share data with any other user. So it's a very powerful concept that they're doing. AWS at reinvent this year announced something called AWS glue elastic views which basically allows you to take data across their entire database portfolio. And I'm going to put, share in quotes. And I put it in quotes because it's essentially doing copying from a source pushing to a target AWS database and then doing a change data management capture and pushes that over time. So it, it feels like kind of an attempt to do their own data cloud. The advantages of AWS is that they've got way more data stores than just Snowflake cause it's one data store. So was AWS says Aurora dynamo DB Redshift on and on and on streaming databases, et cetera where Snowflake is just Snowflake. And so it's going to be interesting to see, you know these two juxtaposing philosophies but I want it to sort of lay that out because this is just it's setting up as a really interesting dynamic. Then you can bring in Azure as well with Microsoft and what they're doing. And I think this is going to be really fascinating to see how this plays out over the next decade. >> Yeah. I think some of the points you brought up maybe a little bit earlier were just around like the functional limits of a Redshift. Right. And I think that's where, you know Snowflake obviously does it does very, very well you know, you kind of have these, you know kind of to come, you know, you kind of have these, you know if you kind of think about like the market drivers right? Like, let's think about even like the prior slide that we showed, where we saw overall you know, database growth, like what's driving all of that what's driving Redshift, right. Obviously proximity application, interdependencies, right. Costs. You get all the credits or people are already working with the big three providers. And so there's so many reasons to continue spending with them, obviously, you know, COVID-19 right. Obviously all these apps being developed right in the cloud versus data centers and things of that nature. So you have all of these market drivers, you know for the cloud database services for Redshift. And so from that perspective, you know you kind of think, well why are people even to go to a third party vendor? And I think, you know, at that point it has to be the functional superiority. And so again, like a lot of times it depends on, you know, where decisions are coming from you know, top down or bottom up obviously at the engineering at the developer level they're going to want better functionality. Maybe, you know, top-down sometimes, you know it's like, look, we have a lot of credits, you know we're trying to save money, you know from a security perspective it could just be easier to spin something up you know, in AWS, so to speak. So, yeah, I think these are all the dynamics that, you know organizations have to figure out every day, but at least within the data warehousing space, you are seeing spend go towards Snowflake and it's going away to an extent as we kind of see, you know growth decelerate for both of these vendors, right. It's not that revenue's not going out there is growth which is that growth is, it's just not the same as it used to be, you know, so to speak. So yeah, this is a interesting area to kind of watch and I think across all the other markets as well, you know when you think about document store, right you have AWS document DB, right. What are the impacts there with with Mongo and some of these other kind of third party data warehousing vendors, right. Having to compete with all the, you know all the different services offered by AWS Azure like the cosmos and all that stuff. So, yeah, it's definitely kind of turning into a battle Royal, you know as we kind of head into, into 2021. And so I think having all these KPIs is really helping us kind of break down and figure out, you know which areas like data warehousing are slowing down. But then what other areas in database where they're seeing a tremendous amount of acceleration, like as we said, database revenue is driving. Like it's becoming a bigger part of their overall revenue. And so they are doing well. It just, you know, there's obviously snowflake they have to compete with here. >> Well, and I think maybe to your point I infer from your point, it's not necessarily a zero sum game. And as I was discussing before, I think Snowflake's really trying to create a new market. It's not just trying to steal share from the Terra datas and the Redshifts and the PCPs of the world, big queries and and Azure SQL server and Oracle and so forth. They're trying to create a whole new concept called the data cloud, which to me is really important because my prediction is what Snowflake is doing. And they don't even really talk a ton about this but they sort of do, if you squint through the lines I think what they're doing is first of all, simplicity is there, what they're doing. And then they're putting data in the hands of business people, business line people who have domain context, that's a whole new way of thinking about a data architecture versus the prevalent way to do a data pipeline is you got data engineers and data scientists, and you ingest data. It's goes to the beginning of the pipeline and that's kind of a traditional way to do it. And kind of how I think most of the AWS customers do it. I think over time, because of the simplicity of Snowflake you're going to see people begin to look at new ways to architect data. Anyway, we're almost out of time here but I want to bring up the next slide which is a graphic, which talks about a database discussion that you guys are having on 12/8 at 2:00 PM Eastern time with Bain and Verizon who what's this all about. >> Yeah. So, you know, one of the things we wanted to do is we kind of kick off a lot of the, you know Q4 Q1 research or putting on the database spark. It is just like kind of, we did, you know we did today, which obviously, you know we're really going to expand on tomorrow at a at 2:00 PM is discuss all the different KPIs. You know, we track something like 20 plus database services. So we're going to be going through a lot more than just kind of Redshift and BigQuery. Look at all the dynamics there, look at, you know how they're very against some of the third party vendors like the Snowflake, like a Mongo DB, as an example we got some really great, you know, thought leaders you know, Michael Delzer and Praveen from verizon they're going to kind of help, or they're going to opine on all the dynamics that we're seeing. And so it's going to be a very kind of, you know structured wise, it's going to be very quantitative but then you're going to have this beautiful qualitative discussion to kind of help support a lot of the data points that we're capturing. And so, yeah, we're really excited about the panel you know, from, you know, why you should join standpoint. Look, it's just, it's great, competitive Intel. If you're a third party, you know, database, data warehousing vendor, this is the type of information that you're going to want to know, you know, adoption rates market sizing, retention rates, you know net price reservers, on demand dynamics. You know, we're going through a lot that tomorrow. So I'm really excited about that. I'm just in general, really excited about a lot of the research that we're kind of putting out. So >> That's interesting. I mean, and we were talking earlier about AWS glue elastic views. I'd love to see your view of all the database services from Amazon. Cause that's where it's really designed to do is leverage those across those. And you know, you listen to Andrew, Jesse talk they've got a completely different philosophy than say Oracle, which says, Hey we've got one database to do all things Amazon saying we need that fine granularity. So it's going to be again. And to the extent that you're providing market context they're very excited to see that data Sagar and see how that evolves over time. Really appreciate you coming back in the cube and look forward to working with you. >> Appreciate Dave. Thank you so much. >> All right. Welcome. Thank you everybody for watching. This is Dave Vellante for the cube. We'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

>>From around the globe. It's the cube with digital coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 sponsored by Intel, AWS and our community partners. >>Hi everyone. Welcome back to the cubes. Live coverage cube live program for re:Invent 2020. This is our Q virtual. We're not in person like we normally are. Today is the AWS public sector. Worldwide celebration day. A lot of content coming from Teresa Carlson and her team and highlighting everything. Of course, the cube channel on the re:Invent events site. Well, the content we streaming there, if you go to the description, you can click on the link and check out all the on-demand interviews. We've done hundreds of videos live before the event pre recorded as well as here live today for public sector day, I'm showing Lisa Martin co-hosts of the cube. Who's been involved in a lot of those interviews. Uh, Lisa, great to see you before we good to see you. Thanks for coming on. >>Likewise. Good to see you too, John. Glad that you're staying safe. >>Well, a lot of good action. And before we get started, I do want to put a plug out for, um, some Salesforce, big party virtual event. Uh, Salesforce is having a big party at re:Invent 2020 a virtual house party with chance the rapper performing an exclusive set with surprise celebrities and DJ in residence December 10th that's tomorrow at 5:00 PM Pacific, go to salesforce.com/big party to check out chance the rapper. Uh, I'm a big fan. Of course my kids are more fans than, uh, check out the sales report. Okay. Back to cube virtual Lisa. Great to see you. >>Likewise John. So public sector day, a lot of transformation mean re:Invent being reinvented, being virtual 500,000 registered. And so, so much has changed, but a lot also that Teresa Carlson spoke about in her keynote and this morning about the transformation across the public sector, that's really been driven by necessity with COVID. It was really impressive to hear and see all of the good things that AWS is facilitating across healthcare, government, education, state, and local. You name it. >>Yeah. The thing I love about Theresa is she's always been ever since I've known her now she's been on the cube every year, since 2013, since we've been covering re:Invent, she's always had a big, bold vision, and she's always kind of stayed on that track. And this year that was really clear out of the box on her, her leadership session. You got to think big and you got to look at the value of the data. That was the key message from her, her and her group public sector, by the way, has been highly active with the COVID pandemic. A lot of public services have been leveraging Amazon cloud to serve, uh, their, their, their people, whether it's getting them the checks for entitlements or getting them, you know, pharmacy drugs and whatnot, and helping them with the pandemic. But clearly Amazon has stepped up and helped education with, with, uh, remotes. So Theresa's team has been pretty busy. So I think that they had more time to prepare for the virtual keynote. I should've gotten chock full of more announcements. >>Yeah. And also some great examples. As you mentioned, we heard from UK biobank, some of the interviews also that have already happened on the kid that you've done showed some amazing work that AWS has helped to facilitate for school districts in Los Angeles, for example, the government of Rhode Island. And those are some of the great things cabbage, what they were able to enable Kevin's to do, to deliver small business loans of so quickly. A lot of that, I thought, I wish we're hearing more about how technology is facilitating so much. Goodness, in COVID on the news. Of course, we're hearing a lot of the challenges with online learning, but there's a lot of amazing things that AWS has been able to facilitate incredibly quickly. >>You know, one of the concerns I have with Theresa and her team years and years ago was this idea of national parks, right? You know, we have spaces where we can go visit and why isn't there a cyber version of that. And so you S you saw that progression and she'd been doing a lot of deals where they're using the cloud and donating their technology for the betterment of society. And one of the things that was, um, news today was an advancement of their open data registry, which has been kind of this open commons of, you know, health data and whatnot. And now they have all the sequencing data that's searchable, readable, uh, from the national Institute of health for DNA sequencing. So this is going to be, again, more commons, like approach is starting to see that I think this is going to be a real big trend lease. >>I think you're going to start to see the big companies have to really contribute to society in a way that we've never seen before, because they have the large scale. You can donate large compute to say research projects. So you starting to see, uh, from Teresa's team, the bubbling up of these new shared experiences around technology for the betterment of society. I think that sequencing was one, the renewable energy project. Another one, again, they're investing in women owned businesses and underrepresented minorities, and at small, medium size businesses to fund them, we saw a guy launching stuff in space that can create, you know, synthetic satellites. So you can look through clouds. This is new. I mean, this is interesting. >>It is interesting. And it actually, to your point is impactful at every level across the globe, going from when they talked about we farm creating this network of small scale of farmers, connectivity was their biggest problem. And now there's over a million. I'm sure that number it's probably even bigger. I've connected farmers due to AWS. You talked about also it's the cord 19 search, which is the expansion of their open research dataset. COVID open research data set that is only possible because of cloud computing and AWS hundreds of thousands of assets in there. Um, 200 plus open data sets for genomic research. She talked about how that's been at the of some of the things that we've seen go on so quickly with operation work speed, uh, with respect to the vaccine. So a lot of acceleration when we know public sector kind of traditionally not necessarily fast movers, but of course, as we've all said, a number of times recently necessity is the mother of invention and the speed element and the connectivity element were things that really spoke loudly to me with what Teresa said today, about the importance of extracting value from data. >>You know, when I talked to Andy Jassy and he talked about this in his keynote, the digital transformation is on full display. And the necessity being the mother of invention is a great phrase, the system and sticking because you can't hide. I mean, you have to deliver these services in the public sector, or, you know, people's lives are going to be impacted in certainly this there's death involved, right? So you have that and then you've got education. I mean, people want to see that changed quicker. There's always been conscious, Oh, education has got to be re-imagined well, guess what? There's no school open. So we got to re-imagine it now. So you get a lot of pressure, unprecedented demand. She said, Theresa said, three's a crosswind actually set onstage for education change. Um, so that's huge. Right? And then the other thing that she mentioned, I think that's going to be a big focus. >>It's not as, um, you know, headline news oriented is this whole jobs training piece. Um, that's a huge deal because the, the tsunami that hits so fast on this digital transformation, because the COVID, we're going to have a post COVID era of rapid acceleration of new skills. So people gotta get trained. So this ain't going to be the boring training programs, the guy who get kind of get better. So I think you're going to see some innovation Lisa, around how people think about delivering and constructing training programs to be much more real world thinking outside the box, you're going to start to see new things. Otherwise it's just going to be too slowly, the training right now. It's just, you know, sign up for the courseware and get a certification. Yeah, you got to do those things, but how can you get sort of cases done faster? How do you get people with the skills in their hands and virtual hands, if you will, to stand up more cloud, more AI, the pressure's there. So we can, that's going to be a huge thing to watch. >>Okay. The pressure is there. You're right. And a need is there. She talked about a lot of the demand that their customers are driving for some of the services and the education services as well that they're offering. But I'd like to point about upskilling focusing on the people, not just the people, but also the diversity inclusion. And we all know how impactful thought diversity is. So their, their dedication, their in their focus there, and also her recommendation to be bold. And I think in the education, respect was really critical. There is no time like now to move digital transformation. If education systems aren't there, then you know, it's a huge challenge and it impacts every person, every element of every family. So what they're able to do there, by focusing on the people and enabling folks to get trained faster, more resources online can only be a good, you know, Theresa >>Has always, um, has her own flare to style to her. She's incredible business woman and have such respect for her. She's been so successful. Um, but she always sends her presentations with the, kind of the, the kind of her to dues. Um, and you kind of pointed that out. So just review them with you. And I want to get your reaction. Number one, she said, you got to re-imagine and enable a digital, a digitally enabled business. Number two, identify data has an realized value and then increase your diversity. And she pointed to avis.training. Um, and that's kind of her kind of get out there and do those things so digitally enabled business, get that unrealized day to get it into work and increase your diversity. And then she had had a big party every year just said, instead of a party go out and do a random act of kindness act. So, yeah, typical, three's a flare, you know, she kind of ended it with a random act of kindness, but, but her bold vision, those are practical, uh, mandates. What's your reaction to, to that? >>I bold vision. I absolutely 100% I think right now is the time that no business can afford to be hiding under the covers. We have to be, they have to be very thoughtful and very prescriptive, but be bold. There's so much opportunity right now. We're seeing a ton of invention and innovation, John, that we've seen over the last nine months. There's a lot of COVID catalysts that we've been talking about on the cube that are really fantastic. So I think that recommendation to set a bold vision is absolutely imperative, not easy to achieve, but I think right now more than ever, it could really be what sets apart, the winners and losers of tomorrow. >>Yeah. I love it. I just say that on this final note, um, cloud and AI is really in play cloud-scale machine learning, which essentially feeds AI is all about data compute going down to the chip level, AI and software and data is critical for cloud. So really awesome keynote again, leadership session by Teresa Carlson, and there's a whole site of content available. Checkout the cube page, click down on the main page. You'll see that description. You'll see a link to the re:Invent page and check on public sector. A lot of great content. Lisa final question for us to kind of close out this keynote leadership session analysis here on all sector day. I want to get your take on, um, the interviews you've done with the Amazon folks and partners and customers. What are the themes that have been boiling out of those? What have you have been hearing? What's your take and observation of the common pattern? >>You know, given the fact that we haven't all been able to be together at my last cube event in person was reinvent 2019. And we're so used to having, you know, three, four days of wall-to-wall coverage, two sides, being able to have those close personal conversations with our guests this year really did a phenomenal job of recreating that same experience, digitally there's tremendous amount of innovation happening. I think that was the one thing that really jumped out at me, the speed with which it's happening, how so many different types businesses have pivoted, not once, but again and again, and again, as times are changing and how even I yesterday I interviewed Boone, supersonic CEO, some of the things that they're facilitating to get commercial supersonic flight back that fully cloud and AI machine learning can do that. There was no stoppage of innovation this year. In fact, that actually got faster. And I think that was a resounding theme and a lot of positivity from the guests. >>You know, the cue, his business was to go to events and extract the signal from the noise. Guess what? There's no physical events. We have the cube virtual. We have pivoted. We are now in our eighth, ninth month of cube virtual. It's been a new model. We've gotten more interviews, more people can just click into the cube virtual. We have more virtual sets, the Cuban virtualized Lisa. Although I miss them in real life as a whole new ballgame for us, >>It is a whole new ball game. And it also provides a lot of opportunities for businesses to get their messaging out and connect and engage with their audience, which is important. >>Well, I miss real life. I miss everybody out there. I wish we could be there in person. Uh, the world will stay hybrid. I think with virtual, I think this has been a great format. There's been some great benefits, but we want to be in person. I want you on the desk with us. So, and all the folks out there I wish we could see. And then we'll see you next year. Thanks everyone for watching the key. This is our keynote analysis and leadership analysis of the worldwide public sector. Teresa Carlson, Kenya. I'm John from Lisa Martin. Thanks for watching.

>>From around the globe. It's the queue with digital coverage of dev ops virtual forum brought to you by Broadcom. >>Hi, Lisa Martin here covering the Broadcom dev ops virtual forum. I'm very pleased to be joined today by a cube alumni, Jeffrey Hammond, the vice president and principal analyst serving CIO is at Forester. Jeffrey. Nice to talk with you today. >>Good morning. It's good to be here. Yeah. >>So a virtual forum, great opportunity to engage with our audiences so much has changed in the last it's an understatement, right? Or it's an overstated thing, but it's an obvious, so much has changed when we think of dev ops. One of the things that we think of is speed, you know, enabling organizations to be able to better serve customers or adapt to changing markets like we're in now, speaking of the need to adapt, talk to us about what you're seeing with respect to dev ops and agile in the age of COVID, what are things looking like? >>Yeah, I think that, um, for most organizations, we're in a, uh, a period of adjustment, uh, when we initially started, it was essentially a sprint, you know, you run as hard as you can for as fast as you can for as long as you can and you just kind of power through it. And, and that's actually what, um, the folks that get hub saw in may when they ran an analysis of how developers, uh, commit times and a level of work that they were committing and how they were working, uh, in the first couple of months of COVID was, was progressing. They found that developers, at least in the Pacific time zone were actually increasing their work volume, maybe because they didn't have two hour commutes or maybe because they were stuck away in their homes, but for whatever reason, they were doing more work. >>And it's almost like, you know, if you've ever run a marathon the first mile or two in the marathon, you feel great and you just want to run and you want to power through it and you want to go hard. And if you do that by the time you get to mile 18 or 19, you're going to be gassed. It's sucking for wind. Uh, and, and that's, I think where we're starting to hit. So as we start to, um, gear our development chops out for the reality that most of us won't be returning into an office until 2021 at the earliest and many organizations will, will be fundamentally changing, uh, their remote workforce, uh, policies. We have to make sure that the agile processes that we use and the dev ops processes and tools that we use to support these teams are essentially aligned to help developers run that marathon instead of just kind of power through. >>So, um, let me give you a couple of specifics for many organizations, they have been in an environment where they will, um, tolerate Rover remote work and what I would call remote work around the edges like developers can be remote, but product managers and, um, you know, essentially scrum masters and all the administrators that are running the, uh, uh, the SCM repositories and, and the dev ops pipelines are all in the office. And it's essentially centralized work. That's not, we are anymore. We're moving from remote workers at the edge to remote workers at the center of what we do. And so one of the implications of that is that, um, we have to think about all the activities that you need to do from a dev ops perspective or from an agile perspective, they have to be remote people. One of the things I found with some of the organizations I talked to early on was there were things that administrators had to do that required them to go into the office to reboot the SCM server as an example, or to make sure that the final approvals for production, uh, were made. >>And so the code could be moved into the production environment. And so it actually was a little bit difficult because they had to get specific approval from the HR organizations to actually be allowed to go into the office in some States. And so one of the, the results of that is that while we've traditionally said, you know, tools are important, but they're not as important as culture as structure as organization as process. I think we have to rethink that a little bit because to the extent that tools enable us to be more digitally organized and to hiring, you know, achieve higher levels of digitization in our processes and be able to support the idea of remote workers in the center. They're now on an equal footing with so many of the other levers, uh, that, that, um, uh, that organizations have at their disposal. Um, I'll give you another example for years. >>We've said that the key to success with agile at the team level is cross-functional co located teams that are working together physically co located. It's the easiest way to show agile success. We can't do that anymore. We can't be physically located at least for the foreseeable future. So, you know, how do you take the low hanging fruits of an agile transformation and apply it in, in, in, in the time of COVID? Well, I think what you have to do is that you have to look at what physical co-location has enabled in the past and understand that it's not so much the fact that we're together looking at each other across the table. It's the fact that we're able to get into a shared mindspace, uh, from, um, uh, from a measurement perspective, we can have shared purpose. We can engage in high bandwidth communications. It's the spiritual aspect of that physical co-location that is actually important. So one of the biggest things that organizations need to start to ask themselves is how do we achieve spiritual colocation with our agile teams? Because we don't have the, the ease of physical co-location available to us anymore? >>Well, the spiritual co-location is such an interesting kind of provocative phrase there, but something that probably was a challenge here, we are seven, eight months in for many organizations, as you say, going from, you know, physical workspaces, co-location being able to collaborate face to face to a, a light switch flip overnight. And this undefined period of time where all we were living with with was uncertainty, how does spiritual, what do you, when you talk about spiritual co-location in terms of collaboration and processes and technology help us unpack that, and how are you seeing organizations adopted? >>Yeah, it's, it's, um, it's a great question. And, and I think it goes to the very root of how organizations are trying to transform themselves to be more agile and to embrace dev ops. Um, if you go all the way back to the, to the original, uh, agile manifesto, you know, there were four principles that were espoused individuals and interactions over processes and tools. That's still important. Individuals and interactions are at the core of software development, processes and tools that support those individual and interact. Uh, those individuals in those interactions are more important than ever working software over comprehensive documentation. Working software is still more important, but when you are trying to onboard employees and they can't come into the office and they can't do the two day training session and kind of understand how things work and they can't just holler over the cube, uh, to ask a question, you may need to invest a little bit more in documentation to help that onboarding process be successful in a remote context, uh, customer collaboration over contract negotiation. >>Absolutely still important, but employee collaboration is equally as important if you want to be spiritually, spiritually co-located. And if you want to have a shared purpose and then, um, responding to change over following a plan. I think one of the things that's happened in a lot of organizations is we have focused so much of our dev ops effort around velocity getting faster. We need to run as fast as we can like that sprinter. Okay. You know, trying to just power through it as quickly as possible. But as we shift to, to the, to the marathon way of thinking, um, velocity is still important, but agility becomes even more important. So when you have to create an application in three weeks to do track and trace for your employees, agility is more important. Um, and then just flat out velocity. Um, and so changing some of the ways that we think about dev ops practices, um, is, is important to make sure that that agility is there for one thing, you have to defer decisions as far down the chain to the team level as possible. >>So those teams have to be empowered to make decisions because you can't have a program level meeting of six or seven teams and one large hall and say, here's the lay of the land. Here's what we're going to do here are our processes. And here are our guardrails. Those teams have to make decisions much more quickly that developers are actually developing code in smaller chunks of flow. They have to be able to take two hours here or 50 minutes there and do something useful. And so the tools that support us have to become tolerant of the reality of, of, of, of how we're working. So if they work in a way that it allows the team together to take as much autonomy as they can handle, um, to, uh, allow them to communicate in a way that, that, that delivers shared purpose and allows them to adapt and master new technologies, then they're in the zone in their spiritual, they'll get spiritually connected. I hope that makes sense. >>It does. I think we all could use some of that, but, you know, you talked about in the beginning and I've, I've talked to numerous companies during the pandemic on the cube about the productivity, or rather the number of hours of work has gone way up for many roles, you know, and, and, and times that they normally late at night on the weekends. So, but it's a cultural, it's a mind shift to your point about dev ops focused on velocity, sprints, sprints, sprints, and now we have to, so that cultural shift is not an easy one for developers. And even at this folks to flip so quickly, what have you seen in terms of the velocity at which businesses are able to get more of that balance between the velocity, the sprint and the agility? >>I think, I think at the core, this really comes down to management sensitivity. Um, when everybody was in the office, you could kind of see the mental health of development teams by, by watching how they work. You know, you call it management by walking around, right. We can't do that. Managers have to, um, to, to be more aware of what their teams are doing, because they're not going to see that, that developer doing a check-in at 9:00 PM on a Friday, uh, because that's what they had to do, uh, to meet the objectives. And, um, and, and they're going to have to, to, um, to find new ways to measure engagement and also potential burnout. Um, friend of mine once had, uh, had a great metric that he called the parking lot metric. It was helpful as the parking lot at nine. And how full was it at five? >>And that gives you an indication of how engaged your developers are. Um, what's the digital equivalent equivalent to the parking lot metric in the time of COVID it's commit stats, it's commit rates. It's, um, you know, the, uh, the turn rate, uh, that we have in our code. So we have this information, we may not be collecting it, but then the next question becomes, how do we use that information? Do we use that information to say, well, this team isn't delivering as at the same level of productivity as another team, do we weaponize that data or do we use that data to identify impedances in the process? Um, why isn't a team working effectively? Is it because they have higher levels of family obligations and they've got kids that, that are at home? Um, is it because they're working with, um, you know, hardware technology, and guess what, they, it's not easy to get the hardware technology into their home office because it's in the lab at the, uh, at the corporate office, uh, or they're trying to communicate, uh, you know, halfway around the world. >>And, uh, they're communicating with a, with an office lab that is also shut down and, and, and the bandwidth just doesn't enable the, the level of high bandwidth communications. So from a dev ops perspective, managers have to get much more sensitive to the, the exhaust that the dev ops tools are throwing off, but also how they're going to use that in a constructive way to, to prevent burnout. And then they also need to, if they're not already managing or monitoring or measuring the level of developer engagement, they have, they really need to start whether that's surveys around developer satisfaction, um, whether it's, you know, more regular social events, uh, where developers can kind of just get together and drink a beer and talk about what's going on in the project, uh, and monitoring who checks in and who doesn't, uh, they have to, to, um, work harder, I think, than they ever have before. >>Well, and you mentioned burnout, and that's something that I think we've all faced in this time at varying levels and it changes. And it's a real, there's a tension in the air, regardless of where you are. There's a challenge, as you mentioned, people having, you know, coworker, their kids as coworkers and fighting for bandwidth, because everyone is forced in this situation. I'd love to get your perspective on some businesses that are, that have done this well, this adaptation, what can you share in terms of some real-world examples that might inspire the audience? >>Yeah. Uh, I'll start with, uh, stack overflow. Uh, they recently published a piece in the journal of the ACM around some of the things that they had discovered. Um, you know, first of all, just a cultural philosophy. If one person is remote, everybody is remote. And you just think that way from an executive level, um, social spaces. One of the things that they talk about doing is leaving a video conference room open at a team level all day long, and the team members, you know, we'll go on mute, you know, so that they don't have to, that they don't necessarily have to be there with somebody else listening to them. But if they have a question, they can just pop off mute really quickly and ask the question. And if anybody else knows the answer, it's kind of like being in that virtual pod. Uh, if you, uh, if you will, um, even here at Forrester, one of the things that we've done is we've invested in social ceremonies. >>We've actually moved our to our team meetings on, on my analyst team from, from once every two weeks to weekly. And we have built more time in for social Ajay socialization, just so we can see, uh, how, how, how we're doing. Um, I think Microsoft has really made some good, uh, information available in how they've managed things like the onboarding process. I think I'm Amanda silver over there mentioned that a couple of weeks ago when, uh, uh, a presentation they did that, uh, uh, Microsoft onboarded over 150,000 people since the start of COVID, if you don't have good remote onboarding processes, that's going to be a disaster. Now they're not all developers, but if you think about it, um, everything from how you do the interviewing process, uh, to how you get people, their badges, to how they get their equipment. Um, security is a, is another issue that they called out typically, uh, it security, um, the security of, of developers machines ends at, at, at the corporate desktop. >>But, you know, since we're increasingly using our own machines, our own hardware, um, security organizations kind of have to extend their security policies to cover, uh, employee devices, and that's caused them to scramble a little bit. Uh, so, so the examples are out there. It's not a lot of, like, we have to do everything completely differently, but it's a lot of subtle changes that, that have to be made. Um, I'll give you another example. Um, one of the things that, that we are seeing is that, um, more and more organizations to deal with the challenges around agility, with respect to delivering software, embracing low-code tools. In fact, uh, we see about 50% of firms are using low-code tools right now. We predict it's going to be 75% by the end of next year. So figuring out how your dev ops processes support an organization that might be using Mendix or OutSystems, or, you know, the power platform building the front end of an application, like a track and trace application really, really quickly, but then hooking it up to your backend infrastructure. Does that happen completely outside the dev ops investments that you're making and the agile processes that you're making, or do you adapt your organization? Um, our hybrid teams now teams that not just have professional developers, but also have business users that are doing some development with a low-code tool. Those are the kinds of things that we have to be, um, willing to, um, to entertain in order to shift the focus a little bit more toward the agility side, I think >>Lot of obstacles, but also a lot of opportunities for businesses to really learn, pay attention here, pivot and grow, and hopefully some good opportunities for the developers and the business folks to just get better at what they're doing and learning to embrace spiritual co-location Jeffrey, thank you so much for joining us on the program today. Very insightful conversation. >>My pleasure. It's it's, it's an important thing. Just remember if you're going to run that marathon, break it into 26, 10 minute runs, take a walk break in between each and you'll find that you'll get there. >>Digestible components, wise advice. Jeffery Hammond. Thank you so much for joining for Jeffrey I'm Lisa Martin, you're watching Broadcom's dev ops virtual forum >>From around the globe. It's the queue with digital coverage of dev ops virtual forum brought to you by Broadcom, >>Continuing our conversations here at Broadcom's dev ops virtual forum. Lisa Martin here, please. To welcome back to the program, Serge Lucio, the general manager of the enterprise software division at Broadcom. Hey, Serge. Welcome. Thank you. Good to be here. So I know you were just, uh, participating with the biz ops manifesto that just happened recently. I just had the chance to talk with Jeffrey Hammond and he unlocked this really interesting concept, but I wanted to get your thoughts on spiritual co-location as really a necessity for biz ops to succeed in this unusual time in which we're living. What are your thoughts on spiritual colocation in terms of cultural change versus adoption of technologies? >>Yeah, it's a, it's, it's quite interesting, right? When we, when we think about the major impediments for, uh, for dev ops implementation, it's all about culture, right? And swore over the last 20 years, we've been talking about silos. We'd be talking about the paradox for these teams to when it went to align in many ways, it's not so much about these teams aligning, but about being in the same car in the same books, right? It's really about fusing those teams around kind of the common purpose, a common objective. So to me, the, this, this is really about kind of changing this culture where people start to look at a kind of OKR is instead of the key objective, um, that, that drives the entire team. Now, what it means in practice is really that's, uh, we need to change a lot of behaviors, right? It's not about the Yarki, it's not about roles. It's about, you know, who can do what and when, and, uh, you know, driving a bias towards action. It also means that we need, I mean, especially in this school times, it becomes very difficult, right? To drive kind of a kind of collaboration between these teams. And so I think there there's a significant role that especially tools can play in terms of providing this complex feedback from teams to, uh, to be in that preface spiritual qualification. >>Well, and it talked about culture being, it's something that, you know, we're so used to talking about dev ops with respect to velocity, all about speed here. But of course this time everything changed so quickly, but going from the physical spaces to everybody being remote really does take it. It's very different than you can't replicate it digitally, but there are collaboration tools that can kind of really be essential to help that cultural shift. Right? >>Yeah. So 2020, we, we touch to talk about collaboration in a very mundane way. Like, of course we can use zoom. We can all get into, into the same room. But the point when I think when Jeff says spiritual, co-location, it's really about, we all share the same objective. Do we, do we have a niece who, for instance, our pipeline, right? When you talk about dev ops, probably we all started thinking about this continuous delivery pipeline that basically drives the automation, the orchestration across the team, but just thinking about a pipeline, right, at the end of the day, it's all about what is the meantime to beat back to these teams. If I'm a developer and a commit code, I don't, does it take where, you know, that code to be processed through pipeline pushy? Can I get feedback if I am a finance person who is funding a product or a project, what is my meantime to beat back? >>And so a lot of, kind of a, when we think about the pipeline, I think what's been really inspiring to me in the last year or so is that there is much more of an adoption of the Dora metrics. There is way more of a focus around value stream management. And to me, this is really when we talk about collaboration, it's really a balance. How do you provide the feedback to the different stakeholders across the life cycle in a very timely matter? And that's what we would need to get to in terms of kind of this, this notion of collaboration. It's not so much about people being in the same physical space. It's about, you know, when I checked in code, you know, to do I guess the system to automatically identify what I'm going to break. If I'm about to release some allegation, how can the system help me reduce my change pillar rates? Because it's, it's able to predict that some issue was introduced in the outpatient or work product. Um, so I think there's, there's a great role of technology and AI candidate Lynch to, to actually provide that new level of collaboration. >>So we'll get to AI in a second, but I'm curious, what are some of the, of the metrics you think that really matter right now is organizations are still in some form of transformation to this new almost 100% remote workforce. >>So I'll just say first, I'm not a big fan of metrics. Um, and the reason being that, you know, you can look at a change killer rate, right, or a lead time or cycle time. And those are, those are interesting metrics, right? The trend on metric is absolutely critical, but what's more important is you get to the root cause what is taught to you lean to that metric to degrade or improve or time. And so I'm much more interested and we, you know, fruit for Broadcom. Are we more interested in understanding what are the patterns that contribute to this? So I'll give you a very mundane example. You know, we know that cycle time is heavily influenced by, um, organizational boundaries. So, you know, we talk a lot about silos, but, uh, we we've worked with many of our customers doing value stream mapping. And oftentimes what you see is that really the boundaries of your organization creates a lot of idle time, right? So to me, it's less about the metrics. I think the door metrics are a pretty, you know, valid set metrics, but what's way more important is to understand what are the antiperspirants, what are the things that we can detect through the data that actually are affecting those metrics. And, uh, I mean, over the last 10, 20 years, we've learned a lot about kind of what are, what are the antiperspirants within our large enterprise customers. And there are plenty of them. >>What are some of the things that you're seeing now with respect to patterns that have developed over the last seven to eight months? >>So I think the two areas which clearly are evolving very quickly are on kind of the front end of the life cycle, where DevOps is more and more embracing value stream management value stream mapping. Um, and I think what's interesting is that in many ways the product is becoming the new silo. Uh, the notion of a product is very difficult by itself to actually define people are starting to recognize that a value stream is not its own little kind of Island. That in reality, when I define a product, this product, oftentimes as dependencies on our products and that in fact, you're looking at kind of a network of value streams, if you will. So, so even on that, and there is clearly kind of a new sets, if you will, of anti-patterns where products are being defined as a set of OTRs, they have interdependencies and you have have a new set of silos on the operands, uh, the Abra key movement to Israel and the SRE space where, um, I think there is a cultural clash while the dev ops side is very much embracing this notion of OTRs and value stream mapping and Belgium management. >>On the other end, you have the it operations teams. We still think business services, right? For them, they think about configure items, think about infrastructure. And so, you know, it's not uncommon to see, you know, teams where, you know, the operations team is still thinking about hundreds of thousands, tens of thousands of business services. And so the, the, there is there's this boundary where, um, I think, well, SRE is being put in place. And there's lots of thinking about what kind of metrics can be fined. I think, you know, going back to culture, I think there's a lot of cultural evolution that's still required for true operations team. >>And that's a hard thing. Cultural transformation in any industry pandemic or not is a challenging thing. You talked about, uh, AI and automation of minutes ago. How do you think those technologies can be leveraged by DevOps leaders to influence their successes and their ability to collaborate, maybe see eye to eye with the SRS? >>Yeah. Um, so th you're kind of too. So even for myself, as a leader of a, you know, 1500 people organization, there's a number of things I don't see right. On a daily basis. And, um, I think the, the, the, the technologies that we have at our disposal today from the AI are able to mind a lot of data and expose a lot of, uh, issues that's as leaders we may not be aware of. And some of the, some of these are pretty kind of easy to understand, right? We all think we're agile. And yet when you, when you start to understand, for instance, uh, what is the, what is the working progress right to during the sprint? Um, when you start to analyze the data you can detect, for instance, that maybe the teams are over committed, that there is too much work in progress. >>You can start to identify kind of, interdepencies either from a technology, from a people point of view, which were hidden, uh, you can start to understand maybe the change filler rates he's he is dragging. So I believe that there is a, there's a fundamental role to be played by the tools to, to expose again, these anti parents, to, to make these things visible to the teams, to be able to even compare teams. Right. One of the things that's, that's, uh, that's amazing is now we have access to tons of data, not just from a given customer, but across a large number of customers. And so we start to compare all of these teams kind of operate, and what's working, what's not working >>Thoughts on AI and automation as, as a facilitator of spiritual co-location. >>Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. It's um, you know, th there's, uh, the problem we all face is the unknown, right? The, the law city, but volume variety of the data, uh, everyday we don't really necessarily completely appreciate what is the impact of our actions, right? And so, um, AI can really act as a safety net that enables us to, to understand what is the impact of our actions. Um, and so, yeah, in many ways, the ability to be informed in a timely matter to be able to interact with people on the basis of data, um, and collaborate on the data. And the actual matter, I think is, is a, is a very powerful enabler, uh, on, in that respect. I mean, I, I've seen, um, I've seen countless of times that, uh, for instance, at the SRE boundary, um, to basically show that we'll turn the quality attributes, so an incoming release, right. And exposing that to, uh, an operations person and a sorry person, and enabling that collaboration dialogue through data is a very, very powerful tool. >>Do you have any recommendations for how teams can use, you know, the SRE folks, the dev ops says can use AI and automation in the right ways to be successful rather than some ways that aren't going to be nonproductive. >>Yeah. So to me, the th there, there's a part of the question really is when, when we talk about data, there are there different ways you can use data, right? Um, so you can, you can do a lot of an analytics, predictive analytics. So I think there is a, there's a tendency, uh, to look at, let's say a, um, a specific KPI, like a, an availability KPI, or change filler rate, and to basically do a regression analysis and projecting all these things, going to happen in the future. To me, that that's, that's a, that's a bad approach. The reason why I fundamentally think it's a better approach is because we are systems. The way we develop software is, is a, is a non-leader kind of system, right? Software development is not linear nature. And so I think there's a D this is probably the worst approach is to actually focus on metrics on the other end. >>Um, if you, if you start to actually understand at a more granular level, what har, uh, which are the things which are contributing to this, right? So if you start to understand, for instance, that whenever maybe, you know, you affect a specific part of the application that translates into production issues. So we, we have, I've actually, uh, a customer who, uh, identified that, uh, over 50% of their unplanned outages were related to specific components in your architecture. And whenever these components were changed, this resulted in these plant outages. So if you start to be able to basically establish causality, right, cause an effect between kind of data across the last cycle. I think, I think this is the right way to, uh, to, to use AI. And so pharma to be, I think it's way more God could have a classification problem. What are the classes of problems that do exist and affect things as opposed to analytics, predictive, which I don't think is as powerful. >>So I mentioned in the beginning of our conversation, that just came off the biz ops manifesto. You're one of the authors of that. I want to get your thoughts on dev ops and biz ops overlapping, complimenting each other, what, from a, the biz ops perspective, what does it mean to the future of dev ops? >>Yeah, so, so it's interesting, right? If you think about DevOps, um, there's no felony document, right? Can we, we can refer to the Phoenix project. I mean, there are a set of documents which have been written, but in many ways, there's no clear definition of what dev ops is. Uh, if you go to the dev ops Institute today, you'll see that they are specific, um, trainings for instance, on value management on SRE. And so in many ways, the problem we have as an industry is that, um, there are set practices between agile dev ops, SRE Valley should management. I told, right. And we all basically talk about the same things, right. We all talk about essentially, um, accelerating in the meantime fee to feedback, but yet we don't have the common framework to talk about that. The other key thing is that we add to wait, uh, for, uh, for jeans, Jean Kim's Lascaux, um, to, uh, to really start to get into the business aspect, right? >>And for value stream mapping to start to emerge for us to start as an industry, right. It, to start to think about what is our connection with the business aspect, what's our purpose, right? And ultimately it's all about driving these business outcomes. And so to me, these ops is really about kind of, uh, putting a lens on this critical element that it's not business and it, that we in fact need to fuse business 19 that I need needs to transform itself to recognize that it's, it's this value generator, right. It's not a cost center. And so the relationship to me, it's more than BizOps provides kind of this Oliver or kind of framework, if you will. That set the context for what is the reason, uh, for it to exist. What's part of the core values and principles that it needs to embrace to, again, change from a cost center to a value center. And then we need to start to use this as a way to start to unify some of the, again, the core practices, whether it's agile, DevOps value, stream mapping SRE. Um, so, so I think over time, my hope is that we start to optimize a lot of our practices, language, um, and, uh, and cultural elements. >>Last question surgeon, the last few seconds we have here talking about this, the relation between biz ops and dev ops, um, what do you think as DevOps evolves? And as you talked to circle some of your insights, what should our audience keep their eyes on in the next six to 12 months? >>So to me, the key, the key, um, challenge for, for the industry is really around. So we were seeing a very rapid shift towards kind of, uh, product to product, right. Which we don't want to do is to recreate kind of these new silos, these hard silos. Um, so that, that's one of the big changes, uh, that I think we need to be, uh, to be really careful about, um, because it is ultimately, it is about culture. It's not about, uh, it's not about, um, kind of how we segment the work, right. And, uh, any true culture that we can overcome kind of silos. So back to, I guess, with Jeffrey's concept of, um, kind of the spiritual co-location, I think it's, it's really about that too. It's really about kind of, uh, uh, focusing on the business outcomes on kind of aligning on driving engagement across the teams, but, but not for create a, kind of a new set of silos, which instead of being vertical are going to be these horizontal products >>Crazy by surge that looking at culture as kind of a way of really, uh, uh, addressing and helping to, uh, re re reduce, replace challenges. We thank you so much for sharing your insights and your time at today's DevOps virtual forum. >>Thank you. Thanks for your time. >>I'll be right back >>From around the globe it's the cube with digital coverage of devops virtual forum brought to you by Broadcom. >>Welcome to Broadcom's DevOps virtual forum, I'm Lisa Martin, and I'm joined by another Martin, very socially distanced from me all the way coming from Birmingham, England is Glynn Martin, the head of QA transformation at BT. Glynn, it's great to have you on the program. Thank you, Lisa. I'm looking forward to it. As we said before, we went live to Martins for the person one in one segment. So this is going to be an interesting segment guys, what we're going to do is Glynn's going to give us a really kind of deep inside out view of devops from an evolution perspective. So Glynn, let's start. Transformation is at the heart of what you do. It's obviously been a very transformative year. How have the events of this year affected the >> transformation that you are still responsible for driving? Yeah. Thank you, Lisa. I mean, yeah, it has been a difficult year. >>Um, and although working for BT, which is a global telecommunications company, um, I'm relatively resilient, I suppose, as a, an industry, um, through COVID obviously still has been affected and has got its challenges. And if anything, it's actually caused us to accelerate our transformation journey. Um, you know, we had to do some great things during this time around, um, you know, in the UK for our emergency and, um, health workers give them unlimited data and for vulnerable people to support them. And that's spent that we've had to deliver changes quickly. Um, but what we want to be able to do is deliver those kinds of changes quickly, but sustainably for everything that we do, not just because there's an emergency. Um, so we were already on the kind of journey to agile, but ever more important now that we are, we are able to do those, that kind of work, do it more quickly. >>Um, and that it works because the, the implications of it not working is, can be terrible in terms of you know, we've been supporting testing centers,  new hospitals to treat COVID patients. So we need to get it right. And then therefore the coverage of what we do, the quality of what we do and how quickly we do it really has taken on a new scale and what was already a very competitive market within the telco industry within the UK. Um, you know, what I would say is that, you know, we are under pressure to deliver more value, but we have small cost challenges. We have to obviously, um, deal with the fact that, you know, COVID 19 has hit most industries kind of revenues and profits. So we've got this kind of paradox between having less costs, but having to deliver more value quicker and  to higher quality. So yeah, certainly the finances is, um, on our minds and that's why we need flexible models, cost models that allow us to kind of do growth, but we get that growth by showing that we're delivering value. Um, especially in these times when there are financial challenges on companies. So one of the things that I want to ask you about, I'm again, looking at DevOps from the inside >>Out and the evolution that you've seen, you talked about the speed of things really accelerating in this last nine months or so. When we think dev ops, we think speed. But one of the things I'd love to get your perspective on is we've talked about in a number of the segments that we've done for this event is cultural change. What are some of the things that you've seen there as, as needing to get, as you said, get things right, but done so quickly to support essential businesses, essential workers. How have you seen that cultural shift? >>Yeah, I think, you know, before test teams for themselves at this part of the software delivery cycle, um, and actually now really our customers are expecting that quality and to deliver for our customers what they want, quality has to be ingrained throughout the life cycle. Obviously, you know, there's lots of buzzwords like shift left. Um, how do we do shift left testing? Um, but for me, that's really instilling quality and given capabilities shared capabilities throughout the life cycle that drive automation, drive improvements. I always say that, you know, you're only as good as your lowest common denominator. And one thing that we were finding on our dev ops journey was that we  would be trying to do certain things quick, we had automated build, automated tests. But if we were taking a weeks to create test scripts, or we were taking weeks to manually craft data, and even then when we had taken so long to do it, that the coverage was quite poor and that led to lots of defects later on in the life cycle, or even in our production environment, we just couldn't afford to do that. >>And actually, focusing on continuous testing over the last nine to 12 months has really given us the ability to deliver quickly across the whole life cycle. And therefore actually go from doing a kind of semi agile kind of thing, where we did the user stories, we did a few of the kind of agile ceremonies, but we weren't really deploying any quicker into production because our stakeholders were scared that we didn't have the same control that we had when we had more waterfall releases. And, you know, when we didn't think of ourselves. So we've done a lot of work on every aspect, um, especially from a testing point of view, every aspect of every activity, rather than just looking at automated tests, you know, whether it is actually creating the test in the first place, whether it's doing security testing earlier in the lot and performance testing in the life cycle, et cetera. So, yeah,  it's been a real key thing that for CT, for us to drive DevOps, >>Talk to me a little bit about your team. What are some of the shifts in terms of expectations that you're experiencing and how your team interacts with the internal folks from pipeline through life cycle? >>Yeah, we've done a lot of work on this. Um, you know, there's a thing that I think people will probably call it a customer experience gap, and it reminds me of a Gilbert cartoon, where we start with the requirements here and you're almost like a Chinese whisper effects and what we deliver is completely different. So we think the testing team or the delivery teams, um, know in our teeth has done a great job. This is what it said in the acceptance criteria, but then our customers are saying, well, actually that's not working this isn't working and there's this kind of gap. Um, we had a great launch this year of agile requirements, it's one of the Broadcom tools. And that was the first time in, ever since I remember actually working within BT, I had customers saying to me, wow, you know, we want more of this. >>We want more projects to have extra requirements design on it because it allowed us to actually work with the business collaboratively. I mean, we talk about collaboration, but how do we actually, you know, do that and have something that both the business and technical people can understand. And we've actually been working with the business , using agile requirements designer to really look at what the requirements are, tease out requirements we hadn't even thought of and making sure that we've got high levels of test coverage. And what we actually deliver at the end of it, not only have we been able to generate tests more quickly, but we've got much higher test coverage and also can more smartly, using the kind of AI within the tool and then some of the other kinds of pipeline tools, actually deliver to choose the right tasks, and actually doing a risk based testing approach. So that's been a great launch this year, but just the start of many kinds of things that we're doing >>Well, what I hear in that, Glynn is a lot of positives that have come out of a very challenging situation. Talk to me about it. And I liked that perspective. This is a very challenging time for everybody in the world, but it sounds like from a collaboration perspective you're right, we talk about that a lot critical with devops. But those challenges there, you guys were able to overcome those pretty quickly. What other challenges did you face and figure out quickly enough to be able to pivot so fast? >>I mean, you talked about culture. You know, BT is like most companies  So it's very siloed. You know we're still trying to work to become closer as a company. So I think there's a lot of challenges around how would you integrate with other tools? How would you integrate with the various different technologies. And BT, we have 58 different IT stacks. That's not systems, that's stacks, all of those stacks can have hundreds of systems. And we're trying to, we've got a drive at the moment, a simplified program where we're trying to you know, reduce that number to 14 stacks. And even then there'll be complexity behind the scenes that we will be challenged more and more as we go forward. How do we actually highlight that to our users? And as an it organization, how do we make ourselves leaner, so that even when we've still got some of that legacy, and we'll never fully get rid of it and that's the kind of trade off that we have to make, how do we actually deal with that and hide that from our users and drive those programs, so we can, as I say, accelerate change,  reduce that kind of waste and that kind of legacy costs out of our business. You know, the other thing as well, I'm sure telecoms is probably no different to insurance or finance. When you take the number of products that we do, and then you combine them, the permutations are tens and hundreds of thousands of products. So we, as a business are trying to simplify, we are trying to do that in an agile way. >>And haven't tried to do agile in the proper way and really actually work at pace, really deliver value. So I think what we're looking more and more at the moment is actually  more value focused. Before we used to deliver changes sometimes into production. Someone had a great idea, or it was a great idea nine months ago or 12 months ago, but actually then we ended up deploying it and then we'd look at the users, the usage of that product or that application or whatever it is, and it's not being used for six months. So we haven't got, you know, the cost of the last 12 months. We certainly haven't gotten room for that kind of waste and, you know, for not really understanding the value of changes that we are doing. So I think that's the most important thing of the moment, it's really taking that waste out. You know, there's lots of focus on things like flow management, what bits of our process are actually taking too long. And we've started on that journey, but we've got a hell of a long way to go. But that involves looking at every aspect of the software delivery cycle. >> Going from, what 58 IT stacks down to 14 or whatever it's going to be, simplifying sounds magical to everybody. It's a big challenge. What are some of the core technology capabilities that you see really as kind of essential for enabling that with this new way that you're working? >>Yeah. I mean, I think we were started on a continuous testing journey, and I think that's just the start. I mean as I say, looking at every aspect of, you know, from a QA point of view is every aspect of what we do. And it's also looking at, you know, we've started to branch into more like AI, uh, AI ops and, you know, really the full life cycle. Um, and you know, that's just a stepping stone to, you know, I think autonomics is the way forward, right. You know, all of this kind of stuff that happens, um, you know, monitoring, uh, you know, watching the systems what's happening in production, how do we feed that back? How'd you get to a point where actually we think about change and then suddenly it's in production safely, or if it's not going to safety, it's automatically backing out. So, you know, it's a very, very long journey, but if we want to, you know, in a world where the pace is in ever-increasing and the demands for the team, and, you know, with the pressures on, at the moment where we're being asked to do things, uh, you know, more efficiently and as lean as possible, we need to be thinking about every part of the process and how we put the kind of stepping stones in place to lead us to a more automated kind of, um, you know, um, the future. >>Do you feel that that planned outcomes are starting to align with what's delivered, given this massive shift that you're experiencing? >>I think it's starting to, and I think, you know, as I say, as we look at more of a value based approach, um, and, um, you know, as I say, print, this was a kind of flow management. I think that that will become ever, uh, ever more important. So, um, I think it starting to people certainly realize that, you know, teams need to work together, you know, the kind of the cousin between business and it, especially as we go to more kind of SAS based solutions, low code solutions, you know, there's not such a gap anymore, actually, some of our business partners that expense to be much more tech savvy. Um, so I think, you know, this is what we have to kind of appreciate what is its role, how do we give the capabilities, um, become more of a centers of excellence rather than actually doing mounds amounts of work. And for me, and from a testing point of view, you know, mounds and mounds of testing, actually, how do we automate that? How do we actually generate that instead of, um, create it? I think that's the kind of challenge going forward. >>What are some, as we look forward, what are some of the things that you would like to see implemented or deployed in the next, say six to 12 months as we hopefully round a corner with this pandemic? >>Yeah, I think, um, you know, certainly for, for where we are as a company from a QA perspective, we are, um, you let's start in bits that we do well, you know, we've started creating, um, continuous delivery and DevOps pipelines. Um, there's still manual aspects of that. So, you know, certainly for me, I I've challenged my team with saying how do we do an automated journey? So if I put a requirement in JIRA or rally or wherever it is and why then click a button and, you know, with either zero touch for one such, then put that into production and have confidence that, that has been done safely and that it works and what happens if it doesn't work. So, you know, that's, that's the next, um, the next few months, that's what our concentration, um, is, is about. But it's also about decision-making, you know, how do you actually understand those value judgments? >>And I think there's lots of the things dev ops, AI ops, kind of that always ask aspects of business operations. I think it's about having the information in one place to make those kinds of decisions. How does it all try and tie it together? As I say, even still with kind of dev ops, we've still got elements within my company where we've got lots of different organizations doing some, doing similar kinds of things, but they're all kind of working in silos. So I think having AI ops as it comes more and more to the fore as we go to cloud, and that's what we need to, you know, we're still very early on in our cloud journey, you know, so we need to make sure the technologies work with cloud as well as you can have, um, legacy systems, but it's about bringing that all together and having a full, visible pipeline, um, that everybody can see and make decisions. >>You said the word confidence, which jumped out at me right away, because absolutely you've got to have be able to have confidence in what your team is delivering and how it's impacting the business and those customers. Last question then for you is how would you advise your peers in a similar situation to leverage technology automation, for example, dev ops, to be able to gain the confidence that they're making the right decisions for their business? >>I think the, the, the, the, the approach that we've taken actually is not started with technology. Um, we've actually taken a human centered design, uh, as a core principle of what we do, um, within the it part of BT. So by using human centered design, that means we talk to our customers, we understand their pain points, we map out their current processes. Um, and then when we mapped out what this process does, it also understand their aspirations as well, you know? Um, and where do they want to be in six months? You know, do they want it to be, um, more agile and, you know, or do they want to, you know, is, is this a part of their business that they want to do one better? We actually then looked at why that's not running well, and then see what, what solutions are out there. >>We've been lucky that, you know, with our partnership, with Broadcom within the payer line, lots of the tools and the PLA have directly answered some of the business's problems. But I think by having those conversations and actually engaging with the business, um, you know, especially if the business hold the purse strings, which in, in, uh, you know, in some companies include not as they do there is that kind of, you know, almost by understanding their, their pain points and then starting, this is how we can solve your problem. Um, is we've, we've tended to be much more successful than trying to impose something and say, well, here's the technology that they don't quite understand. It doesn't really understand how it kind of resonates with their problems. So I think that's the heart of it. It's really about, you know, getting, looking at the data, looking at the processes, looking at where the kind of waste is. >>And then actually then looking at the right solutions. Then, as I say, continuous testing is massive for us. We've also got a good relationship with Apple towards looking at visual AI. And actually there's a common theme through that. And I mean, AI is becoming more and more prevalent. And I know, you know, sometimes what is AI and people have kind of this semantics of, is it true AI or not, but it's certainly, you know, AI machine learning is becoming more and more prevalent in the way that we work. And it's allowing us to be much more effective, be quicker in what we do and be more accurate. And, you know, whether it's finding defects running the right tests or, um, you know, being able to anticipate problems before they're happening in a production environment. >>Well, thank you so much for giving us this sort of insight outlook at dev ops sharing the successes that you're having, taking those challenges, converting them to opportunities and forgiving folks who might be in your shoes, or maybe slightly behind advice enter. They appreciate it. We appreciate your time. >>Well, it's been an absolute pleasure, really. Thank you for inviting me. I have a extremely enjoyed it. So thank you ever so much. >>Excellent. Me too. I've learned a lot for Glenn Martin. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the cube >>Driving revenue today means getting better, more valuable software features into the hands of your customers. If you don't do it quickly, your competitors as well, but going faster without quality creates risks that can damage your brand destroy customer loyalty and cost millions to fix dev ops from Broadcom is a complete solution for balancing speed and risk, allowing you to accelerate the flow of value while minimizing the risk and severity of critical issues with Broadcom quality becomes integrated across the entire DevOps pipeline from planning to production, actionable insights, including our unique readiness score, provide a three 60 degree view of software quality giving you visibility into potential issues before they become disasters. Dev ops leaders can manage these risks with tools like Canary deployments tested on a small subset of users, or immediately roll back to limit the impact of defects for subsequent cycles. Dev ops from Broadcom makes innovation improvement easier with integrated planning and continuous testing tools that accelerate the flow of value product requirements are used to automatically generate tests to ensure complete quality coverage and tests are easily updated. >>As requirements change developers can perform unit testing without ever leaving their preferred environment, improving efficiency and productivity for the ultimate in shift left testing the platform also integrates virtual services and test data on demand. Eliminating two common roadblocks to fast and complete continuous testing. When software is ready for the CIC CD pipeline, only DevOps from Broadcom uses AI to prioritize the most critical and relevant tests dramatically improving feedback speed with no decrease in quality. This release is ready to go wherever you are in your DevOps journey. Broadcom helps maximize innovation velocity while managing risk. So you can deploy ideas into production faster and release with more confidence from around the globe. It's the queue with digital coverage of dev ops virtual forum brought to you by Broadcom. >>Hi guys. Welcome back. So we have discussed the current state and the near future state of dev ops and how it's going to evolve from three unique perspectives. In this last segment, we're going to open up the floor and see if we can come to a shared understanding of where dev ops needs to go in order to be successful next year. So our guests today are, you've seen them all before Jeffrey Hammond is here. The VP and principal analyst serving CIO is at Forester. We've also Serge Lucio, the GM of Broadcom's enterprise software division and Glenn Martin, the head of QA transformation at BT guys. Welcome back. Great to have you all three together >>To be here. >>All right. So we're very, we're all very socially distanced as we've talked about before. Great to have this conversation. So let's, let's start with one of the topics that we kicked off the forum with Jeff. We're going to start with you spiritual co-location that's a really interesting topic that we've we've uncovered, but how much of the challenge is truly cultural and what can we solve through technology? Jeff, we'll start with you then search then Glen Jeff, take it away. >>Yeah, I think fundamentally you can have all the technology in the world and if you don't make the right investments in the cultural practices in your development organization, you still won't be effective. Um, almost 10 years ago, I wrote a piece, um, where I did a bunch of research around what made high-performance teams, software delivery teams, high performance. And one of the things that came out as part of that was that these teams have a high level of autonomy. And that's one of the things that you see coming out of the agile manifesto. Let's take that to today where developers are on their own in their own offices. If you've got teams where the team itself had a high level of autonomy, um, and they know how to work, they can make decisions. They can move forward. They're not waiting for management to tell them what to do. >>And so what we have seen is that organizations that embraced autonomy, uh, and got their teams in the right place and their teams had the information that they needed to make the right decisions have actually been able to operate pretty well, even as they've been remote. And it's turned out to be things like, well, how do we actually push the software that we've created into production that would become the challenge is not, are we writing the right software? And that's why I think the term spiritual co-location is so important because even though we may be physically distant, we're on the same plane, we're connected from a, from, from a, a shared purpose. Um, you know, surgeon, I worked together a long, long time ago. So it's been what almost 15, 16 years since we were at the same place. And yet I would say there's probably still a certain level of spiritual co-location between us, uh, because of the shared purposes that we've had in the past and what we've seen in the industry. And that's a really powerful tool, uh, to build on. So what do tools play as part of that, to the extent that tools make information available, to build shared purpose on to the extent that they enable communication so that we can build that spiritual co-location to the extent that they reinforce the culture that we want to put in place, they can be incredibly valuable, especially when, when we don't have the luxury of physical locate physical co-location. Okay. That makes sense. >>It does. I shouldn't have introduced us. This last segment is we're all spiritually co-located or it's a surge, clearly you're still spiritually co located with jump. Talk to me about what your thoughts are about spiritual of co-location the cultural impact and how technology can move it forward. >>Yeah. So I think, well, I'm going to sound very similar to Jeff in that respect. I think, you know, it starts with kind of a shared purpose and the other understanding, Oh, individuals teams, uh, contributed to kind of a business outcome, what is our shared goal or shared vision? What's what is it we're trying to achieve collectively and keeping it kind of aligned to that? Um, and so, so it's really starts with that now, now the big challenge, always these over the last 20 years, especially in large organization, there's been specialization of roles and functions. And so we, we all that started to basically measure which we do, uh, on a daily basis using metrics, which oftentimes are completely disconnected from kind of a business outcome or purpose. We, we kind of reverted back to, okay, what is my database all the time? What is my cycle time? >>Right. And, and I think, you know, which we can do or where we really should be focused as an industry is to start to basically provide a lens or these different stakeholders to look at what they're doing in the context of kind of these business outcomes. So, um, you know, probably one of my, um, favorites experience was to actually weakness at one of a large financial institution. Um, you know, Tuesday Golder's unquote development and operations staring at the same data, right. Which was related to, you know, in calming changes, um, test execution results, you know, Coverity coverage, um, official liabilities and all the all ran. It could have a direction level links. And that's when you start to put these things in context and represent that to you in a way that these different stakeholders can, can look at from their different lens. And, uh, and it can start to basically communicate and, and understand have they joined our company to, uh, to, to that kind of common view or objective. >>And Glen, we talked a lot about transformation with you last time. What are your thoughts on spiritual colocation and the cultural part, the technology impact? >>Yeah, I mean, I agree with Jeffrey that, you know, um, the people and culture, the most important thing, actually, that's why it's really important when you're transforming to have partners who have the same vision as you, um, who, who you can work with, have the same end goal in mind. And w I've certainly found that with our, um, you know, continuing relationship with Broadcom, what it also does though, is although, you know, tools can accelerate what you're doing and can join consistency. You know, we've seen within simplify, which is BTS flagship transformation program, where we're trying to, as it can, it says simplify the number of systems stacks that we have, the number of products that we have actually at the moment, we've got different value streams within that program who have got organizational silos. We were trying to rewrite, rewrite the wheel, um, who are still doing things manually. >>So in order to try and bring that consistency, we need the right tools that actually are at an enterprise grade, which can be flexible to work with in BT, which is such a complex and very dev, uh, different environments, depending on what area of BT you're in, whether it's a consumer, whether it's a mobile area, whether it's large global or government organizations, you know, we found that we need tools that can, um, drive that consistency, but also flex to Greenfield brownfield kind of technologies as well. So it's really important that as I say, for a number of different aspects, that you have the right partner, um, to drive the right culture, I've got the same vision, but also who have the tool sets to help you accelerate. They can't do that on their own, but they can help accelerate what it is you're trying to do in it. >>And a really good example of that is we're trying to shift left, which is probably a, quite a bit of a buzz phrase in their kind of testing world at the moment. But, you know, I could talk about things like continuous delivery direct to when a ball comes tools and it has many different features to it, but very simply on its own, it allows us to give the visibility of what the teams are doing. And once we have that visibility, then we can talk to the teams, um, around, you know, could they be doing better component testing? Could they be using some virtualized services here or there? And that's not even the main purpose of continuous delivery director, but it's just a reason that tools themselves can just give greater visibility of have much more intuitive and insightful conversations with other teams and reduce those organizational silos. >>Thanks, Ben. So we'd kind of sum it up, autonomy collaboration tools that facilitate that. So let's talk now about metrics from your perspectives. What are the metrics that matter? Jeff, >>I'm going to go right back to what Glenn said about data that provides visibility that enables us to, to make decisions, um, with shared purpose. And so business value has to be one of the first things that we look at. Um, how do we assess whether we have built something that is valuable, you know, that could be sales revenue, it could be net promoter score. Uh, if you're not selling what you've built, it could even be what the level of reuse is within your organization or other teams picking up the services, uh, that you've created. Um, one of the things that I've begun to see organizations do is to align value streams with customer journeys and then to align teams with those value streams. So that's one of the ways that you get to a shared purpose, cause we're all trying to deliver around that customer journey, the value with it. >>And we're all measured on that. Um, there are flow metrics which are really important. How long does it take us to get a new feature out from the time that we conceive it to the time that we can run our first experiments with it? There are quality metrics, um, you know, some of the classics or maybe things like defect, density, or meantime to response. Um, one of my favorites came from a, um, a company called ultimate software where they looked at the ratio of defects found in production to defects found in pre production and their developers were in fact measured on that ratio. It told them that guess what quality is your job to not just the test, uh, departments, a group, the fourth level that I think is really important, uh, in, in the current, uh, situation that we're in is the level of engagement in your development organization. >>We used to joke that we measured this with the parking lot metric helpful was the parking lot at nine. And how full was it at five o'clock. I can't do that anymore since we're not physically co-located, but what you can do is you can look at how folks are delivering. You can look at your metrics in your SCM environment. You can look at, uh, the relative rates of churn. Uh, you can look at things like, well, are our developers delivering, uh, during longer periods earlier in the morning, later in the evening, are they delivering, uh, you know, on the weekends as well? Are those signs that we might be heading toward a burnout because folks are still running at sprint levels instead of marathon levels. Uh, so all of those in combination, uh, business value, uh, flow engagement in quality, I think form the backbone of any sort of, of metrics, uh, a program. >>The second thing that I think you need to look at is what are we going to do with the data and the philosophy behind the data is critical. Um, unfortunately I see organizations where they weaponize the data and that's completely the wrong way to look at it. What you need to do is you need to say, you need to say, how is this data helping us to identify the blockers? The things that aren't allowing us to provide the right context for people to do the right thing. And then what do we do to remove those blockers, uh, to make sure that we're giving these autonomous teams the context that they need to do their job, uh, in a way that creates the most value for the customers. >>Great advice stuff, Glenn, over to your metrics that matter to you that really make a big impact. And, and, and also how do you measure quality kind of following onto the advice that Jeff provided? >>That's some great advice. Actually, he talks about value. He talks about flow. Both of those things are very much on my mind at the moment. Um, but there was this, I listened to a speaker, uh, called me Kirsten a couple of months ago. It taught very much around how important flow management is and removing, you know, and using that to remove waste, to understand in terms of, you know, making software changes, um, what is it that's causing us to do it longer than we need to. So where are those areas where it takes long? So I think that's a very important thing for us. It's even more basic than that at the moment, we're on a journey from moving from kind of a waterfall to agile. Um, and the problem with moving from waterfall to agile is with waterfall, the, the business had a kind of comfort that, you know, everything was tested together and therefore it's safer. >>Um, and with agile, there's that kind of, you know, how do we make sure that, you know, if we're doing things quick and we're getting stuff out the door that we give that confidence, um, that that's ready to go, or if there's a risk that we're able to truly articulate what that risk is. So there's a bit about release confidence, um, and some of the metrics around that and how, how healthy those releases are, and actually saying, you know, we spend a lot of money, um, um, an investment setting up our teams, training our teams, are we actually seeing them deliver more quickly and are we actually seeing them deliver more value quickly? So yeah, those are the two main things for me at the moment, but I think it's also about, you know, generally bringing it all together, the dev ops, you know, we've got the kind of value ops AI ops, how do we actually bring that together to so we can make quick decisions and making sure that we are, um, delivering the biggest bang for our buck, absolutely biggest bang for the buck, surge, your thoughts. >>Yeah. So I think we all agree, right? It starts with business metrics, flow metrics. Um, these are kind of the most important metrics. And ultimately, I mean, one of the things that's very common across a highly functional teams is engagements, right? When, when you see a team that's highly functioning, that's agile, that practices DevOps every day, they are highly engaged. Um, that that's, that's definitely true. Now the, you know, back to, I think, uh, Jeff's point on weaponization of metrics. One of the key challenges we see is that, um, organizations traditionally have been kind of, uh, you know, setting up benchmarks, right? So what is a good cycle time? What is a good lead time? What is a good meantime to repair? The, the problem is that this is very contextual, right? It varies. It's going to vary quite a bit, depending on the nature of application and system. >>And so one of the things that we really need to evolve, um, as an industry is to understand that it's not so much about those flow metrics is about our, these four metrics ultimately contribute to the business metric to the business outcome. So that's one thing. The second aspect, I think that's oftentimes misunderstood is that, you know, when you have a bad cycle time or, or, or what you perceive as being a buy cycle time or better quality, the problem is oftentimes like all, do you go and explore why, right. What is the root cause of this? And I think one of the key challenges is that we tend to focus a lot of time on metrics and not on the eye type patterns, which are pretty common across the industry. Um, you know, if you look at, for instance, things like lead time, for instance, it's very common that, uh, organizational boundaries are going to be a key contributor to badly time. >>And so I think that there is, you know, the only the metrics there is, I think a lot of work that we need to do in terms of classifying, descend type patterns, um, you know, back to you, Jeff, I think you're one of the cool offers of waterscrumfall as a, as, as a key pattern, the industry or anti-spatter. Um, but waterscrumfall right is a key one, right? And you will detect that through kind of a defect arrival rates. That's where that looks like an S-curve. And so I think it's beyond kind of the, the metrics is what do you do with those metrics? >>Right? I'll tell you a search. One of the things that is really interesting to me in that space is I think those of us had been in industry for a long time. We know the anti-patterns cause we've seen them in our career maybe in multiple times. And one of the things that I think you could see tooling do is perhaps provide some notification of anti-patterns based on the telemetry that comes in. I think it would be a really interesting place to apply, uh, machine learning and reinforcement learning techniques. Um, so hopefully something that we'd see in the future with dev ops tools, because, you know, as a manager that, that, you know, may be only a 10 year veteran or 15 year veteran, you may be seeing these anti-patterns for the first time. And it would sure be nice to know what to do, uh, when they start to pop up, >>That would right. Insight, always helpful. All right, guys, I would like to get your final thoughts on this. The one thing that you believe our audience really needs to be on the lookout for and to put on our agendas for the next 12 months, Jeff will go back to you. Okay. >>I would say look for the opportunities that this disruption presents. And there are a couple that I see, first of all, uh, as we shift to remote central working, uh, we're unlocking new pools of talent, uh, we're, it's possible to implement, uh, more geographic diversity. So, so look to that as part of your strategy. Number two, look for new types of tools. We've seen a lot of interest in usage of low-code tools to very quickly develop applications. That's potentially part of a mainstream strategy as we go into 2021. Finally, make sure that you embrace this idea that you are supporting creative workers that agile and dev ops are the peanut butter and chocolate to support creative, uh, workers with algorithmic capabilities, >>Peanut butter and chocolate Glen, where do we go from there? What are, what's the one silver bullet that you think folks to be on the lookout for now? I, I certainly agree that, um, low, low code is, uh, next year. We'll see much more low code we'd already started going, moving towards a more of a SAS based world, but low code also. Um, I think as well for me, um, we've still got one foot in the kind of cow camp. Um, you know, we'll be fully trying to explore what that means going into the next year and exploiting the capabilities of cloud. But I think the last, um, the last thing for me is how do you really instill quality throughout the kind of, um, the, the life cycle, um, where, when I heard the word scrum fall, it kind of made me shut it because I know that's a problem. That's where we're at with some of our things at the moment we need to get beyond that. We need >>To be releasing, um, changes more frequently into production and actually being a bit more brave and having the confidence to actually do more testing in production and go straight to production itself. So expect to see much more of that next year. Um, yeah. Thank you. I haven't got any food analogies. Unfortunately we all need some peanut butter and chocolate. All right. It starts to take us home. That's what's that nugget you think everyone needs to have on their agendas? >>That's interesting. Right. So a couple of days ago we had kind of a latest state of the DevOps report, right? And if you read through the report, it's all about the lost city, but it's all about sweet. We still are receiving DevOps as being all about speed. And so to me, the key advice is in order to create kind of a spiritual collocation in order to foster engagement, we have to go back to what is it we're trying to do collectively. We have to go back to tie everything to the business outcome. And so for me, it's absolutely imperative for organizations to start to plot their value streams, to understand how they're delivering value into aligning everything they do from a metrics to deliver it, to flow to those metrics. And only with that, I think, are we going to be able to actually start to really start to align kind of all these roles across the organizations and drive, not just speed, but business outcomes, >>All about business outcomes. I think you guys, the three of you could write a book together. So I'll give you that as food for thought. Thank you all so much for joining me today and our guests. I think this was an incredibly valuable fruitful conversation, and we appreciate all of you taking the time to spiritually co-located with us today, guys. Thank you. Thank you, Lisa. Thank you. Thank you for Jeff Hammond serves Lucio and Glen Martin. I'm Lisa Martin. Thank you for watching the broad cops Broadcom dev ops virtual forum.