>> Hello and welcome to a special CUBE Conversation. I'm John Furrier, the co-founder of SiliconANGLE on theCUBE. We're here in Sundance 2018 at the Intel Tech Lounge for a panel discussion with experts on the topic of The New Creative. We believe a new creative renaissance is coming in application development and also artistry. The role of craft and the role of technology and software coming together at the intersection. You're seeing results in the gaming industry. Virtual reality, augmented reality, mixed reality. A new wave is coming and it's really inspiring, but also there's a few thought leaders at the front end of this big wave setting the trends and they're here with us in this special panel for The New Creative. Here with us is Brooks Browne, Global Director of VR at Starbreeze Studios, a lot to share there, welcome to the panel. Lisa Watt, VR Marketing Strategist at Intel, Intel powering a lot of these VR games here. And Winslow Porter, co-founder and director of The New Reality Company. Many submissions at Sundance. Not this year, but a ton of experience talk about the role of Sundance and artistry. And then we have Gary Radburn who's a director of commercial VR and AR from media within Dell, Dell Technologies. Guys, welcome to this panel. Lisa, I want to start off with you at Intel. Obviously the Tech Lounge here, phenomenal location on Main Street in Sundance. Really drawing a massive crowd. Yesterday it was packed. This is a new generation here and you're seeing a younger demographic. You're seeing savvier consumers. They love tech, but interesting Sundance is turning into kind of an artistry tech show and the game is changing, your thoughts on this new creative. >> Yeah, it's been amazing to watch. I've been here for, this is my third year coming back with VR experiences. And it's really just been incredible to see. Sundance has been on the leading edge of exploring new technologies for a long time and I think this is, I feel like you know this feels like the break out year really. I mean, it's been successful the last few years, but something about this year feels a little bit different. And I think maybe it's the people are getting more familiar with the technology. I think the artists are getting more comfortable with how to push the boundaries. And then we certainly are getting a lot out of seeing what they're doing and how we can improve our products in the future. >> We were talking yesterday, Lisa, about the dynamic at Sundance. And you were mentioning that you see a few trends popping out. What is the most important story this year for the folks who couldn't make it, who might be watching this video that you see at Sundance? Obviously it's a great day today, it's snowing, it's a white day, it's beautiful powder, greatest snow on Earth. But there's some trends that are emerging. We had a march this morning, the Women's March. You're seeing interesting signals. What's your view? >> I think there's a lot less desire to put up with subpar experiences. I mean I think everyone is really starting to push the boundaries, I mean, we saw a lot of 360 video which we love for a linear narrative. But they're really breaking out and really exploring what does it mean to have autonomy especially in the virtual reality experiences, a lot more social is coming to the forefront. And then a lot more exploration of haptics and the new ways of extending into more 4D effects, etc. So I think it's very very exciting. We're really excited to see all the new innovations. >> Winslow, I want to ask you, if you can comment, you've been an active participant in the community with submissions here at Sundance. This year you're kind of chilling out, hanging out. You've been on the front lines, what is your take on the vibe? What's the sentiment out there? Because you're seeing the wave coming, we're feeling it. It feels early. I don't know how early it is, and the impact to people doing great creative work. What's that take? >> Well yeah, it's kind of like VR years are like dog years, you know. Like a lot can happen in a month in the VR space. So I had a piece here in 2014 called Clouds. It was an interactive documentary about Creative Code, but that was back when there was only two other VR pieces. It's interesting to see how the landscape has changed. Because CCP Games had a piece there. An early version of E Valkyrie. And unfortunately in the last three months, they had to close their VR wing. So, and then Chris Milk also had a Lincoln piece with Beck. Which was a multi camera 360, actually it was a flash video that they recorded to the DK1. And so that was, seeing that everyone was, saw the potential. The technology was still pretty rudimentary or crude even, we should say. Before any tracking cameras. But every year people learned from previous Sundances and other festivals. And we're seeing that Sundance kind of raises the bar every year. It's nice that it's in January because then there's all these other festivals that sort of follow through with either similar content, newer versions of content that's here, or people have just sort of learned from what is here. >> So I got to ask you. You know, obviously Sundance is known for pushing the boundaries. You see a lot of creative range. You see a lot of different stuff. And also you mentioned the VR. We've seen some failures, you've seen some successes, but that's growth. This market has to have some failures. Failures create opportunities to folks who are reiterating in that. What are some of the things that you can point to that are a positive? Things that have happened whether they're failures and/or successes, that folks can learn from? >> Well, I think that this year there's a lot more social VR. We're connecting people. Even though they're in the same space, they're able to be in this new virtual world together. There's something amazing about being able to interact with people in real life. But as soon as you have sort of a hyper reality where people are able to be experiencing a Sufi ritual together. Things that you wouldn't normally... That they're not possible in the real world. And also, I think that there's issues with lines too. Obviously every year, but the more that we can have larger experiences with multiple people, the more people we can get through. And then more impact we can make on the audience. It's really... We were in claim jumper last year. And we could only get one person in every 10 minutes. And that makes things pretty tricky. >> And what are you doing at Sundance this year? You've obviously got some stuff going on with some of the work you've done. What's your focus? >> So yeah we have a company called New Reality Company where we produce Giant and Tree. It's part of a trilogy where Breathe is going to be the third part. We're going to be completing that by the end of this year. And right now, I would say the best thing about Sundance is the projects, but also the people. Being able to come here, check in, meet new people, see partners that we've been working with in the past. Also new collaborations, everywhere you turn, there's amazing possibilities abound. >> I want to talk about empathy and social. I mentioned social's interesting in these trends. I want to go to Brooks Brown, who's got some really interesting work with Starbreeze and the Hero project. You know, being a pioneer, you've got to take a few arrows in your back, you've got to blow peoples' minds. You're doing some pretty amazing work. You're in the front lines as well. What's the experience that you're seeing? Talk about your project and its impact. >> Well for us, we set out with our partner's ink stories, Navid Khonsari, a wonderful creative, and his entire team to try to create that intensely personal experience kind of moving the opposite direction of these very much social things. The goal, ultimately being to try to put a person inside of an event rather than a game style situation where you have objective A, B, or C. Or a film that's a very, very hyper linear narrative. What is that sort of middle ground that VR itself has as unique medium? So we built out our entire piece. Deep 4D effects, everything is actually physically built out so you have that tactility as you walk around. Things react to you. We have smell, temperature, air movement, the audio provided by our partners at DTS is exceptional. And the goal is ultimately to see if we put you in a situation... I'm doing my best not to talk about what that situation is. It's pretty important to that. But to watch people react. And the core concept is would you be a hero? All over the world, every day people are going through horrific stuff. We're fortunate because we're the kind of people who, in order to experience, say a tragedy in Syria, we're fortunate that we have to go to Park City, Utah and go in virtual reality to experience something that is tragic, real, and deeply emotional. And so our goal is to put people through that and come out of it changed. Traumatized actually. So that way you have a little bit more empathy into the real world into the actual experiences they went through. >> And what's the goal? This is interesting because most of the some stuff you see, the sizzle out there is look at the beautiful vistas and the beaches and the peaks and you can almost be there. Now you're taking a different approach of putting people in situations that probe some emotional responses. >> Yeah. It's a big deal to us. The way Navid like to put it, and I'm going to steal this from him, is you see a great deal of people prototyping on hardware and all of these things, and it's great cause we need that. We need to be able to stand on the shoulders of those giants to be able to do these things. But you see very few people really prototyping what is the concept of story as per VR? We've been doing, at Starbreeze, we've been doing location based for some time now and I've been getting thousands upon thousands of pitches. And whenever you get a pitch, you can pretty much identify, oh you come from a film background, you come from a games background. There's very few people who come down that middle line and go, well this is what VR is supposed to be. This is that interesting thing that makes it very deeply unique. >> What's the confluence and what's the trend in your mind as this changes? Cause you mentioned that gamers have affinity towards VR. We were talking about that before we came on the panel. You know, pump someone in mainstream USA or around the world who does email, does work, may not be there, you're seeing this confluence. How is that culture shifting? How do you see that? Cause you're bringing a whole nother dimension. >> We're trying to go back to a little bit, something about this Sundance being a little bit different. I think in general in VR, you're seeing this sort of shift from a few years ago it was all potentiality. And I think a lot of us, the projects were great, but a lot of us who work in VR were like oh I see what they're trying to do. And people like my dad would be like I don't. I don't see what they're trying to do. But that is shifting. And you're seeing a larger shift into that actuality where we're not quite there yet where we can talk about the experiences every day Americans are going to have. What is the real ready player one that we're actually going to have existing. We're not there yet, but we're much closer every time. And we're starting to see a lot of these things that are pushing towards that. Final question before I go to some of the speeds and feeds questions I want to get with Intel and Dell on is what is the biggest impact that you're seeing with your project and VR in general that will have the most important consequences for societal impact? >> Well, we were fortunate yesterday we had a number of people come through Hero. And a number of them simply actually couldn't handle it. Had to come out. We had to pull people out. The moment we took the headset off, they were, tears were streaming down their face. There's a level of emotional impact VR is extremely able to cut through. It's not that you're playing a character. It's not that you're in a separate world. You are you inside of that space. And that is a dangerous but very promising ability of VR. >> Winslow, could you take a stab at that, I'd like to get your reaction to that because people are trying to figure out the societal impact in a positive way and potentially negative. >> Yeah I mean, so with that, whenever you traumatize somebody else or have the ability to possibly re-traumatize somebody... In Giant, we made sure that we gave them a trigger warning because yeah these things can be intensely intimate or personal for somebody who already has that sort of baggage with them or could be living in a similar experience. In Giant, we witnessed the last moments of a family. As they're convincing their daughter that the approaching bomb blast is a giant that actually wants to play with her. And so we put haptics in the chair so the audience was also surprised. But we let them know that it was going to be taking place in a conflict zone. So if that was something that they didn't want to participate in, that they could opt out. But again, like we didn't know... We had to go and buy tissues like right off the bat because people were crying in the headset. And that's kind of a... It's an interesting problem to have for the sake of what are sort of the rules around that? But also it makes it more difficult to get people through the experience in a timely fashion as well. But yeah, but we're seeing that as things become more real then there's also a chance to possibly impact people. It's the... >> So it's social for you? You see it as a social impact? >> Well, I mean if everyone's experiencing the same thing that can be social, but again if it's a one on one experience, it's sort of like up to the filmmaker to make sure that they have the scruples that they are playing by the rules. Cause there's right now most every piece of content is being released through Oculus, Steam, or Viveport. But there will be... It's heavily regulated right now, but as soon as there's other means of distributing the content, it could take a different sort of face. >> Certainly some exciting things to grab on, great stuff. I want to get to the commercial angle. Then we're going to talk more about the craft and the role of artistry in the creating side of it. Gary, you're the commercial VR expert at Dell. You're commercializing this. You're making the faster machines. We want faster everything. I mean everyone... Anyone who's in VR knows that all the graphics cards. They know the speeds and feeds. They're totally hardware nerds. What's going on? Where's the action? >> Okay, that's such a large question. I mean we've had some great stuff here that I also want to comment on as well. But inside the commercial side, then yeah everybody wants bigger, stronger, better, faster. And to Winslow's comment about the dog years, that really puts the pressure on us to continue that innovation and working with partners like Intel to get those faster processors in there. Get faster graphics cards in there so that we can get people more emotionally bought in. We can do better textures, we can get more immersion inside the content itself. We're working a lot around VR in terms of opening peoples' eyes for societal impact. So VR for good for instance. Where we're taking people to far flung corners of the Earth. We work with Nat Geo explorer Mike Libecki to show the plight of polar bears in Greenland and how they're gradually becoming extinct for an edutainment and a learning tool. The boundaries are really being pushed in entertainment and film. That's always been the case. Consumer has always really pushed that technology. Commercial's always been a bit of a lagger. They want stability in what's going on. But the creation that's going on here is absolutely fantastic. It's taken what is essentially a prosumer headset and then taking it into that commercial world and lit it up. 360 video, its very inception, people are using it for training inside of their businesses and so that's now going out into businesses now. We're starting to see advances in 360 video with more compute power needed. Where, to the point about immersion and getting people emotionally bought in. Then you can start doing volumetric, getting them in there. And then we're also working with people like Dr. Skip Rizzo who was on our panel yesterday where we're starting to go into, okay, we can treat PTSD. Help people with autism, through the medium of VR. So again, that buys into... >> These are disruptive use cases that are legit? >> Yeah. >> These are big time, market moving, helping people... >> Absolutely. And that where it becomes really, really powerful. Yes, we want our companies to embrace it. Companies are embracing it for training. But when you start seeing the healthcare implications and people crying inside of headsets. That's effecting you deeply, emotionally. If you can make that for good, and change somebody's trigger points inside of PTSD, and the autism side of helping somebody in interview techniques to be able to be more self sufficient, it's absolutely awesome. >> This is the new creative. So what's your take on the new creative? What's your definition? Cause you're talking about a big range of use cases beyond just film making and digital artistry. >> Yeah, absolutely so the new creative is like with all the great work that's here, people are looking at film and entertainment. Now the world really is the oyster for all the creatives out there. People are clamoring out for modelers, artists, story tellers, story experiencers to be able to use that inside their commercial environments to make their businesses more effective. But they're not going to have a 360 video production company inside of their commercial organization. And it's then leveraging all of the creative here and all of the great stuff here. Which is really going to help the whole world a lot. >> Lisa, I want to get your thoughts on this cause you guys at Intel here at the Tech Lounge have a variety of demos, but there's a range of pro and entry level tools that can get someone up and running quickly to pro. And so there's a creative range not only just for digital artistry, but also business we're hearing. So what's the... Cause AI's involved in a lot of this too though. It's not just AI, it's a lot of these things. What's the Intel take on this. >> Well I think it's really an interesting time for us at Intel because one of the things that we have that I think probably nobody else has. We have this amazing slate of products that really cover the end to end process. Both from the creation side of the house all the way to the consumption side. And we talk a lot about our processors. We worked on an amazing project, a couple of huge scenes inside of the Sansar environment. Which is a great tool for really democratizing the creation of spaces. It's a cloud hosted service but it utilizes this amazing client-server architecture. We created four huge spaces in a matter of eight weeks to launch at CES. And some of the technologies that Gary was referring to just in pure processing power like two generations old processors were taking three hours to render just a small portion of a model where our newest generation Core i9s with our opting technology took that time to 15 minutes. So when we think about what we can do now, and those technologies are going to be available in even portable laptop form factors. We've got the piece where we were working here SPHERES. They were able to actually make some corrections and some tweaks basically immediately without having to send them off to some render farm. They were able to do those things. And I know Winslow has talked about that as well. What does it mean to you to be able to react real time. And be able to do your creative craft where you are and then be able to share that so readily. And then you know... I just think that's kind of an amazing equalizer. It's really democratizing the creation process. >> Okay the next question that begs for everyone to address is where are we in this progression? Early? What work needs to get done? Where are we holding back? Is it speeds and feeds? Is it the software? Is it the routines, libraries, art? Where's the bottleneck? Why isn't it going faster? Or is it going faster? >> I would, and I'm sure the team would agree here, I would say that one of the key things is the creator tools themselves, right. They are still somewhat cumbersome. We were talking to another filmmaker. He was like I can't even, I have to play the whole piece from the beginning, I can't just go in and edit, you know change control, being able to collaborate on these pieces with other people. I mean, if you can collaborate in a real world space, you should be able to also collaborate in VR and have change control and all those sorts of things that are necessary to the iteration of a project. So we're trying to work with our software partners. They're all doing a really great job of trying to iterate that, but it's going to take some time. I mean I think that's probably the bigger thing that's holding everything back. We're going to be right there with the processing power and the other technologies that we bring to the table. OEM partners are going to be right there with the best devices. I really think it's something we've all got to push for as far as those tools getting better. >> Brooks, comment on anything? You're in the... >> So for me, the thing that's holding back VR in general is actually the art form itself. One of the great challenges, if you look back, at say the history of film... We're at Sundance, so it's probably fairly apropo. Very early on in the early movies, aside from penny arcade machines that you'd actually stare at, they were 10 minute almost like plays that people would go to almost a playhouse and they'd watch this thing. There were not cuts, there were no angles. It was a single wide shot. Great Train Robbery came around and there was this crazy thing they did called an edit. Where they spliced film together. And if you go back and you read, and they did these dolly shots. People will have no idea what they're watching. There's no way people will be able to follow that. Like people were not happy with it at the time. Now it's stuff that children do on their iMacs at home. They do iMacs all the time, they do it on their iPhones, on their Android devices. These are normal languages of film that we have. VR doesn't have that yet. And there's not a great deal of effort being made in that direction. There's people here doing that. So I'm kind of speaking in the middle of the group, but outside of these people, there's only a handful who are really doing that and it's a significant challenge. When people who are the mainstream consumer put on a VR headset, it needs to be more than just a magic trick where they go oh that's cool. And that tends to be the vast majority of experiences. So what is the thing that is going to make someone go oh I get why we have VR as a medium. And we're not there yet. We're in the direction, but that's >> So you mentioned earlier the point where you can tell if someone's from film or gaming or whatever when you talk to them about VR. Who is the future VR developer? Is it a filmmaker? Is it a gamer? Is it a digital artist? What is this evolving? >> It's a kid in his basement who no one knows and is screwing around with it and is going to do something that everyone thinks is stupid. Like, it's going to be that. Basically every major leap in gaming is kind of the same thing. It's when we understand how ludonarrative dissonance works inside of telling how people move around a space. It's about how we do Dutch angle suddenly in film. And these things get invented. It's going to be some kid who's just screwing around who doesn't have the baggage of the language of film. A lot of the people I know in VR have been fortunate to work in film, in games and interactive or web dev. So you come from a lot of places but someone's going to come along who has none of that baggage. And they're going to be... >> Well you guys are pioneers and you're doing it. So for the first person out there that's in their basement, that inspirational soundbite or comment. How can you guys talk to that person or that group? Because this is the democratization, this is what's happening. It's not the gatekeepers. It's real creatives out there that could come from anywhere. YouTube generation, Twitch generation, gaming. What would you say to that person to motivate them and to give them that passion? >> Well it's only going to get easier, faster, cheaper, all these things are happening. But again, yeah I totally agree with what Brooks said. It's really about the culture and about educating the audience and getting them up to speed. There are some VR experiences that as soon as they put on the headset, like somebody who's never done it before, immediately will take it off cause they'll get nauseated. And then there's people, like kids who are like jet fighters. They've seen everything. You could throw like a 30 frames per second experience at them and that doesn't even phase them. They can be, all of a sudden their worlds are changing and they're like bring it because they're ready for that. So I think it's sort of about raising the bar for what the audience is comfortable with, familiar with, educating the community. There's a lot of tools right now, you know with Unreal and Unity that allow people who have very little... They don't need to know C# or C++, they can get started in a lot of like visual. What you see is what you get. Being able to drag things into a virtual room. And the windows headsets that are out. They refer to them as mixed reality, but just even having the ability to flip up the screen and transition from the virtual world to the real world in milliseconds, it allows you to be able to create things more at the speed of thought instead of coming up with an idea, coding it, and making sure it works, and then eventually putting on the headset. The sooner that we can actually be ideating inside this virtual environment is when things will get really interesting. >> So the next question is to take to the next level is what's the playbook? How does someone get involved? How does someone ingratiate into a community? If I'm an artist, I want to get, and I'm proficient with technology, or maybe not, how do they get involved? Is it community driven? Is it social? You guys mentioned seeing social's a big trend here. How do people get involved? What's the track? >> Well yeah you don't just need to go to a grad school or... There's a lot of programs out there that are popping up. Almost every single major state school has like an interactive art program now. And that wasn't the case like two or three years ago. So we're seeing that that's a big shift in the culture. But again, VR is still... It's expensive and it's you know, like VR, I refer to it's in the stage of it's almost like in the neo geo phase, maybe a little before that. But it's the really expensive thing that your friend's neighbor has. Or his older brother or something. You get to play it a little bit, you're like that's great but there's no way in hell I'm going to... You know, I can't afford that or like that just doesn't really work with my lifestyle right now so it needs to incorporate itself into our everyday, our habits. And it needs to be something that... If we're all doing it then it makes sense for us to do it together not just somebody in their basement doing it by themselves. >> Yeah feel free to comment, this is a good topic. >> Oh yeah, absolutely. So what we're doing is sort of about democratization and accessibility. So for people to get into the then they're going to need a rig, they're going to need a headset and previously it's actually been quite expensive to actually take that first plunge into it. So now by democratizing and bringing price points down, it makes it more accessible. That helps content creators because there's now more of an audience that can now consume that content. And the people that can then play with the medium and consume it now have a better reason to do it. So we're working on that. We're also working on the education pieces like Key. It's actually going out there to schools and actually letting them experience VR and play with VR. Because it is a whole new different medium. We've seen film directors and filmmakers go into the VR space and things that worked in 2D film like fast pans and whatever else so the points have already been made don't really translate into VR without somebody losing their lunch. So it is going to be somebody who's coming up who hasn't got the baggage of previous skill sets inside of 2D doing it inside of VR. So we're going to see that. And in terms of the technology, everybody's wanting things to progress. That shows the level of excitement out there. And everybody wants to get into it. Everybody wants to see it go further. And I'm reminded of the mobile phone. Mobile phone, 30 years ago? Two suitcases for batteries, a large brick on the ear and a car antennae. Okay, so where we are now, if you had a time machine and you went back in time to talk to the inventor of the mobile phone, well, I'd be a lot richer because I know sports results and all, but that aside, but you go back and talk to them and you said do you know in 30 years time, everybody is going to be carrying that device? Everybody's going to be dependent on that device? They're going to get social anxiety and separation anxiety if they lose it. And they will probably laugh in your face. >> Alright so since you brought up the phone analogy, since I love that example, are we in the Blackberry moment of VR and no one yet has built the iPhone? Because the iPhone was the seminal moment for smartphones. And you see what happened there. Is VR needing that kind of break? Or is it there? >> I think we're on the cusp. Where we are at the moment with technology, we've had the headsets, which I say have been more in the consumer space, they've been designed to hit a certain price point. We had CES the other week where we've had advancements now in the resolutions of headset that are now coming out. One of the issues was well I can't see texts, I can't read texts. So from a working environment, if you're actually using tools that you would normally use on a 2D screen, you can now translate that and read that text. However, in terms of the tools that people use, why are we trying to put 2D screens into a VR headset? We've got a whole new way of interacting with data. We've got a whole new way of doing things that are going to be more intuitive than the mouse and keyboard interaction that we're used to. Why just translate that. Let's push that envelope and those are the developments that we're pushing our partners and our ISVs to really embrace. >> So it's an evoution. >> It's absolutely an evolution. >> You guys have any thoughts on that comment. That we have that inflection point, are we hitting that, will we see it soon, is it here? >> Well I think it's a very interesting symbiotic relationship between multiple factors. So you know, we hear the cost factor, we hear the technology factor, then we have the content factor. You know I saw an interesting evolution at CES we had created this virtual booth experience so that you could still come to the CES Intel booth without actually having to be there. And I met a guy in there and I was like hey where are you? He goes I've been in here like all week. (laughter) And I was like oh yeah, where do you live? He goes oh I'm in my basement in Nebraska. But he had just, this was Friday when I met him. He'd been in there all week, but in 2D mode. And he had gone out the night before and bought a headset just so he could come back and go in VR mode. And I think, yes, all these factors have to kind of line up, but I do think that content, those experiences that are going to keep people coming back for more. Like these guys literally kept coming back to our booth. Right, to see... >> Content gain. >> To see who was there. And to them at that point, it wasn't really a barrier of cost. It was like there is something that I want to consume therefore I am going to go get what I need to consume it. And I use the analogy of HDTV, right. When we kind of moved over that hump where there was enough content people didn't really care how much that television cost. >> Sports was great. Sports really highlighted HD. >> Yeah. >> But this is a good point. This is a good question to ask. Brooks, I'd love to get your thoughts. Content drives experiences, amazing experiences, but we're building the scaffolding of everything at the same time. So where are we, what's your opinion? >> So here on the Starbreeze side, we're fortunate because we have our own headset. We have the StarVR headset we've been building with Acer. 5K all of that stuff and we're upgrading it over the next year. Our focus has been, we skipped the consumer market very much. We went straight to location based and enterprise. And the reason we did that is because there's a promise of VR at a basic, I don't want to say technology stand point, but from an experience perspective, when it comes to that resolution, when it comes to that field of view, when it comes to these things people expect. Average consumers who go to a movie and they see these giant screens. They want that translated. They don't have the understanding like we do of well, LED panels are actually a pain in the ass to build and it takes a little bit and they flip at their own speeds. Time to photon is not a thing my dad will ever see in his life. But there's a reality that people have a need for that. And it is extremely expensive. It's again the reason we went straight to LBE. But for us it's about marrying the two and consistently trying to match what's happening. So when we're talking about, as I mentioned earlier the technology and how we're standing on the shoulders of giants very very quickly, someone who's doing technology is going to see what we're doing content wise and go well I can do that better technology wise. And then we're just going to keep leap frogging. And it's very similar to the phone in the same way that we're not at the final stage of the phone. Like we're at our stage of the phone and no doubt in 30 years people will laugh at us for carrying anything. The same way we laugh about the briefcases and the giant batteries in the cars we had to pull with us. So it's one of those things that's continually transitional. And VR's in an odd, amazing place. >> Well you know, it was a lot of waves that we've all seen. You mentioned the mobile phone, that's a good one to point to. It feels like the PC revolution to me because the same culture of entrepreneurs and pioneers come from a bunch of different backgrounds. So I'd like to get Brooks perspective and Winslow's perspective on this because I think there's an entrepreneurial culture out there right now that's just emerging very fast. It's not like your classic entrepreneur software developer. So in this movement, in this wave, the entrepreneur is the filmmaker, it could be the kid in the basement, could be the gamer. Those entrepreneurs are trying to find a path. >> Yeah, it's a weird mix. VR is at this odd point where not only is it the people who are wanting to be cutting edge in terms of content or technology, but also that first mover strategy from the business side of things. And so everyone wants to be those guys who are charging ahead because in reality, if you look at the financials around all of this, VR is one of those things that you don't want to finance. It's not nearly as safe as say Marvel Avengers or the next Call of Duty. >> You've got to be, you've got to hustle. >> Yeah you've got to hustle. You've got to make... >> What's your advice? >> Start doing it. That's really it. It's the same advice I used to give to game makers when people would be like well I want to learn how to make games. It's like go to YouTube, download a thing and go do it. There's literally no reason why you can't. >> Are there meetups or like the Homebrew Computer Club that spawned the Mac. >> There are, there are infinite groups of VR people who are more than happy to give you all the terrible and wonderful opinions that come with that. There's no shortage of people. There's no shortage and it's an amazingly helpful group. Because everyone wants someone else to figure out something so they can steal that and then figure out something else. >> Winslow, your advice to entrepreneurs out there that are young and/or 14 to 50, what should they do? Jump right in obviously is a good one. >> Well yeah, experiment, break things, that's really the only way to learn. I would say watch as much VR as you can because sometimes bad VR is the best VR. Because you can learn don't do that. And if you learn, if you put all that together, you can really... It's like this lexicon that you can really follow. Also, I think we... As people in tech, we kind of get obsessed with things like resolution, frame rate, and these are very important, but it's also good to remember, or at least for me, I watch some of the best experiences from storytelling when I was a kid, eight years old on a 12 inch screen that was 640 by 480. You know, like scan lines on the VHS. But for me the story still resonated and it's important to think of story first, but obviously it's a dance between the story and the technology. They kind of have to both organically work together. And if they don't, one thing in the story that doesn't work because the tech isn't supporting it, can throw you out of the experience. >> Other concern entrepreneurs might have is financing. How do I get someone to help me build it? And then doing relationships. Finding relationships that could... One plus one equals more than two, right. So how do you? >> You have to get really creative when it comes to funding right now. Unless you're doing location based, which also requires a certain amount of investment to get it up to a bar where you want to be showing it to people with all the haptic effects when it's heat, smell, vibration, stuff like that. You know, it's not cheap to develop. But as far as like working with film foundations, we're fortunate enough to be sponsored by Fledgling Fund and Chicken and Egg. But we also were able to get partnerships with people like Intel and NVidia. And also work with people who come from a traditional film background. There's not one way to successfully fund a project. There's a million. And that's why it's interesting that the technology's innovating, but also the market place is as well. >> One of the things I want to ask is as any new industry gets building, is cultures form early. DNA forms in the entrepreneurs, in the pioneers. And one of the big hottest topics in the creative world is inclusion and diversity. So what's the makeup of the culture of this new generation? Because democratization means everyone can participate, everyone's involved. What's the state of the community vis a vis diversity, inclusion, and the role of the actors in the community. >> Well I think it's important to understand that VR has a profound ability to place you in somebody else's shoes. The trick though is to make sure that those feel like they're your shoes. But I think that we're learning a lot more about story telling techniques and we're able to empower people that their voices you know were previously not heard. The tricky thing is being able to yeah, educate all different groups of people how to use the technology, but once they're enabled and empowered to do it, it's amazing what you can experience inside the headset. >> So VR can be an enabler for education, outreach, a variety of things? >> Yes, I mean the term empathy, empathy machine gets thrown around a lot. You could do a drinking game around it. For panels when people are talking about it. But it's important to know there is a truth to that. And it's, yeah the perspective shift from looking at a screen, a 16 by 9 screen where you can look away, then dissolving the screen and becoming that person. Becoming the director, the actor, the camera person, the editor. When you're in the first person perspective, there's so much more... It feels more personal and that's a really interesting angle that we're going to continue to explore. >> So you could walk in someone's shoes, literally? >> Yes, you literally can. You just have to make sure that you got a... The tracking system's proper or else you'll look like there's... It can be come a horror movie pretty quickly if your leg is behind your head. >> Lisa, your thoughts on this, I know it's important to you. >> Yeah, I mean I think it's fascinating because I've been in tech for a really long time. And seen many, many trends. I mean the first job I had at Intel I was a PC tech and as you can imagine as a female, I think there was one other tech female in the department at the time and I would get funny looks when I would show up with my bag. They were like hi can I help you? I'm like I'm not here to deliver coffee, I'm here to fix your computer, you know. So I've seen a lot of trends and it's super exciting to me to see so much diversity cross culture, cross country, I mean we're having... We had guys come in from all over the world. From even war torn, they've escaped their country just several years ago and they're coming and they're bringing all that creativity to the market. We're seeing very, very strong female contingent from the filmmaker perspective so it's this wonderful, wonderful just primordial soup of people that I think are growing their own voice and their own power. They're breaking molds as far as how you actually get content produced. Distribution is kind of crazy right now. I mean, how do you get it distributed? There's like so many different ways. But all of those things are so important to the evolutionary and biological process of this. Yes, we need to let it go and sometimes we're frustrated. We're like where's the standards? Where's the one ring to rule them all? Where there's not going to be one. And it's good for us that there's not right now. It's frustrating from a business perspective sometimes. You're like, I can't peanut butter myself around all of these places, but I think it's just a very unique time where so many people are... The technology is accessible, that means that so many creators can now bring their fresh voice to this space and it's just going to be fascinating to continue to watch. >> That's awesome. Well two more questions and I'll give you some time to think about the last one which is your perspective on Sundance, what's happening this year, your personal view of what you think's happening, what might happen during this year. But the question I have for you now is to go down the line. We'll start with Brooks here, and talk about the coolest thing that you're involved in right now. >> It actually has to be Hero. We're debuting it here at Sundance. We've been working on it and not talking about it for about nine months. And it's been very difficult. Again it's sacrosanct to the experience that you don't know literally what you're getting in to. And the emotional response has been essentially our goal, trying to find out how far can we take that. You actually being in a space, moving around, having that interactivity, doing what you would do. But it being your story and how deeply we can absolutely effect a human being. And again, watching people come out, it's one of those things, I've been doing game development, I've worked on films, I've done all kinds of stuff. And you usually get a chance when someone experiences something you've made, you walk up to them and you go so what'd you think? And that's not at all what we can do with ours. >> How has it impacted you, that reaction? >> Well, I personally suffer significant PTSD and I've had some traumas in my life. And so it's been incredibly powerful to be able to share these things with people. Share this emotion in a deeply profound, yet amazingly personal way. Which I'm amazingly fortunate to be able to be a part of it. >> Alright thanks for sharing. Coolest thing that's going on with you right now here at Sundance. >> Just the fact that I'm here at all. I mean, it's incredible right? Personally was able to be an advisor on the SPHERES project that is premiering here with Eliza McNitt. She's someone who was an Intel Science Fair winner back in high school and kind of came back to us. So just to see the evolution of an artist really from the beginning to the point where they've been able to come here to Sundance. I'm also very passionate about the work that we're doing with Sansar. I kind of consider myself one of the chief storytellers at Intel around Virtual reality and this new move into social where people are like well what's this game. I'm like, it's not a game. It's you are the game, you are the interactivity. You become the person that makes the space interesting. We're just really setting the scene for you. And there's so many... You know there's a lot of different people kind of chasing this be togetherness. But what we've been able to produce there. And just to be able to explore some of my own personal ideas has just been such a gift. Then to be working with guys like these on the panels and see what they're doing and just be in touch is really just an exciting time. >> John: Awesome. >> Probably what, other than the people on the projects, or the projects that are being shown here, we're working on our new project, which we would have loved to premiere here, but we did... Basically when you get in, you have two months to create a piece, so you have a demo and you have to finish it, so we're taking a little bit more time. This one's going to be about a year development cycle. It's called Breathe where we take you from where Giant left off, where, in Giant, the ceiling collapses on a family. They're in front of you. In this experience, we use a breathing apparatus to basically bring yourself back to life. And then you realize you're trapped under rubble and you remove the... We actually want to have physical objects on top of you that are going to be tracked. So you're moving rubble from you and you realize that you're a six year old girl. You're the survivor from Giant. And you get to witness what it's like to be a future refugee sort of in different key moments of her life that use breath. Whether it's a flirtatious moment, blowing a dandelion, seeing your own breath in snow as a drone shows you a message that your parents pre-recorded on your 18th birthday. This is all in the future, obviously, but every time you walk around an object, you actually grow 10 to 15 years older in the experience. As you get older, the world becomes smaller. And then we witness what's like for her last breath. From being six years old to being 90 years old. But it's a profound personal experience. >> John: That sounds cool, cool. Gary, coolest thing that you're involved in right now at Sundance. >> Wow. I could say it's all cool that would be a bit trite. They say if you enjoy what you do, is it really a job? And I'm lucky enough to be in that position. Because working with all these guys here and like people around the place, they're doing such great things that every day I wake up and I'm astounded of where the industry's going. In terms of what we're doing here at Sundance, then we're really starting to push those envelopes as well. I've been lucky enough to be involved with Dunkirk and Spider-Man: Homecoming. Like last year, so some great pieces there. And moving out into this year, we've got some other developments which I can't mention at this point, but we're showing things like AR and VR mashup. So we haven't talked much about augmented reality here. It's an evolutionary, it's not a replacement. Both can be used and we've started to really start to blend those two technologies now. So you can still see the outside world. Just touching on the commercial side, and health care's very big for me. That's where I think the really cool stuff is happening. Entertainment is great and that's really pushing the envelope and allowing us to then take it for the good of human kind. >> It happens everywhere, it's not just entertainment. >> Yeah absolutely. You start looking at MRI scans inside of VR or AR. Talking a patient through it so they can actually see exactly what you're talking about. You're now no longer pointing at flat things on a screen. You're now actually taking them through it. If you're using AR, you can actually judge the responses of the patient as for how they're reacting to the news. And effectively, inside of the VR, and what's really cool for me is seeing people's reaction to that content and to the entertainment content. >> That's awesome. Okay final question. This is a little bit of self serving because I'd like you to help me do my job at SiliconANGLE. If you were a reporter and you were going to report the most important stories happening this year at Sundance or really kind of what's really happening versus what's kind of being billed to be happening here. What's the story? What is the story this year at Sundance 2018 in your personal perspective? We'll go down the line and share your observations. >> Well, mine here, I'm a Sundance newbie. This is my first year of being here. I'm absolutely astounded by the community spirit that's around. I go to a lot of technical trade shows and technical presentations. People coming here with a willingness to learn. Wanting to learn from other people. It's been touched on already. It's the pool of knowledge that's available inside of Sundance that everybody that comes here can actually tap into to create better content, to learn not what to do as well as learn what to do. And I just think that's brilliant because in that community spirit, that's really going to help enable this industry quickly. >> John: Winslow, you've got some experience, what's your thoughts? >> Obviously, this Intel house, just a little plug for you Lisa. (laughter) Tech Lounge. We got that? Okay good. I mean, yeah, the people that's here. Every year we come here and see where the high water mark is. All these people are... Some of these teams first started with two people and then they grew to six and then by the end of it, there's 100 people working around the clock, pulling all-nighters to be able to give the latest and greatest of what's available with these current tools. So it's amazing because the work itself doesn't really mean anything until people get to experience it. So that's nice that they make a big splash. The people here are very attentive to it. It's a very nice audience and this will continue the momentum for future festivals throughout the year, but also will excite people that have never done VR before. People who have never been to Sundance before. We're seeing that there's a lot of new people. And that will continue to influence many years to come. >> John: So you think VR is the top story here being told? >> As far as like just to generalize, I would say last year kind of the big VR year. This is kind of the big AR year. Next year's going to be the AI year. Then after that we're going to start putting them all together. >> John: Great, great feedback. >> I think it's just exciting for Intel just to be back here. I think Intel hasn't been here in quite some time. Dell coming in here probably one of the breakout years for us to come back and really talk to creators what we're doing from the Intel Studios all the way through to the stuff you can take home and do at home. And I think coming in, we're coming back here with a purpose really, not just to be here to be seen. We're really here with real things and want to have real conversations on how tech can enable what people are doing. Not just from a brand perspective, but from a real hands on point of view. >> John: Yeah, some great demos too, phenomenal tech. >> Really just, yeah everything from the AI stuff we have to the social to the great new pieces that have been submitted here like we mentioned with SPHERES. So I think, yeah, it doesn't feel gratuitous to me you know that Dell or Intel is here this year. We've really come with a purpose. >> You guys are moving the needle, it's really awesome. We need more horsepower. >> Brooks, your thoughts on Sundance this year. Observation, the vibe, what would you tell your friend back home when you get back? >> If, for me, I think it's almost the non-story. It's like the opposite of a story. It's just the deep integration of VR into the normal Sundance flow I think has been interesting. Some people have been here for a few years. And back in the day when it was one or two, it was a lot of oh, you do VR? What's that then? Whereas now, you see a lot more people who are crossing over. Going to see documentaries, then they come to see a VR piece and it's just a part of the normal flow. And the team at New Frontier has done exceptional work to kind of make sure that they have this ridiculous high level of broad content for all kinds of people. All kinds of experiences, all high end things. But it's not that VR's here. Oh good, we have a VR section. It's a lot more of an integrated set up. And it's been really encouraging to see. >> Well you guys have been great. It's been very inspirational. Great information. You guys are reimagining the future and building it at the same time so entrepreneurially and also with content and technology. So thanks so much for sharing on this panel The New Creative. This is SiliconANGLE's coverage of Sundance 2018 here at the Intel Tech Lounge at the Sundance Film Festival. I'm John Furrier thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Welcome back to Boston, everybody. This is the birthplace of theCUBE. In 2010, May of 2010 at EMC World, right in this very venue, John Furrier called it the chowder and lobster post. I'm Dave Vellante. We're here at RE:INFORCE 2022, Ed Walsh, CEO of ChaosSearch. Doing a drive by Ed. Thanks so much for stopping in. You're going to help me wrap up in our final editorial segment. >> Looking forward to it. >> I really appreciate it. >> Thank you for including me. >> How about that? 2010. >> That's amazing. It was really in this-- >> Really in this building. Yeah, we had to sort of bury our way in, tunnel our way into the Blogger Lounge. We did four days. >> Weekends, yeah. >> It was epic. It was really epic. But I'm glad they're back in Boston. AWS was going to do June in Houston. >> Okay. >> Which would've been awful. >> Yeah, yeah. No, this is perfect. >> Yeah. Thank God they came back. You saw Boston in summer is great. I know it's been hot, And of course you and I are from this area. >> Yeah. >> So how you been? What's going on? I mean, it's a little crazy out there. The stock market's going crazy. >> Sure. >> Having the tech lash, what are you seeing? >> So it's an interesting time. So I ran a company in 2008. So we've been through this before. By the way, the world's not ending, we'll get through this. But it is an interesting conversation as an investor, but also even the customers. There's some hesitation but you have to basically have the right value prop, otherwise things are going to get sold. So we are seeing longer sales cycles. But it's nothing that you can't overcome. But it has to be something not nice to have, has to be a need to have. But I think we all get through it. And then there is some, on the VC side, it's now buckle down, let's figure out what to do which is always a challenge for startup plans. >> In pre 2000 you, maybe you weren't a CEO but you were definitely an executive. And so now it's different and a lot of younger people haven't seen this. You've got interest rates now rising. Okay, we've seen that before but it looks like you've got inflation, you got interest rates rising. >> Yep. >> The consumer spending patterns are changing. You had 6$, $7 gas at one point. So you have these weird crosscurrents, >> Yup. >> And people are thinking, "Okay post-September now, maybe because of the recession, the Fed won't have to keep raising interest rates and tightening. But I don't know what to root for. It's like half full, half empty. (Ed laughing) >> But we haven't been in an environment with high inflation. At least not in my career. >> Right. Right. >> I mean, I got into 92, like that was long gone, right?. >> Yeah. >> So it is a interesting regime change that we're going to have to deal with, but there's a lot of analogies between 2008 and now that you still have to work through too, right?. So, anyway, I don't think the world's ending. I do think you have to run a tight shop. So I think the grow all costs is gone. I do think discipline's back in which, for most of us, discipline never left, right?. So, to me that's the name of the game. >> What do you tell just generally, I mean you've been the CEO of a lot of private companies. And of course one of the things that you do to retain people and attract people is you give 'em stock and it's great and everybody's excited. >> Yeah. >> I'm sure they're excited cause you guys are a rocket ship. But so what's the message now that, Okay the market's down, valuations are down, the trees don't grow to the moon, we all know that. But what are you telling your people? What's their reaction? How do you keep 'em motivated? >> So like anything, you want over communicate during these times. So I actually over communicate, you get all these you know, the Sequoia decks, 2008 and the recent... >> (chuckles) Rest in peace good times, that one right? >> I literally share it. Why? It's like, Hey, this is what's going on in the real world. It's going to affect us. It has almost nothing to do with us specifically, but it will affect us. Now we can't not pay attention to it. It does change how you're going to raise money, so you got to make sure you have the right runway to be there. So it does change what you do, but I think you over communicate. So that's what I've been doing and I think it's more like a student of the game, so I try to share it, and I say some appreciate it others, I'm just saying, this is normal, we'll get through this and this is what happened in 2008 and trust me, once the market hits bottom, give it another month afterwards. Then everyone says, oh, the bottom's in and we're back to business. Valuations don't go immediately back up, but right now, no one knows where the bottom is and that's where kind of the world's ending type of things. >> Well, it's interesting because you talked about, I said rest in peace good times >> Yeah >> that was the Sequoia deck, and the message was tighten up. Okay, and I'm not saying you shouldn't tighten up now, but the difference is, there was this period of two years of easy money and even before that, it was pretty easy money. >> Yeah. >> And so companies are well capitalized, they have runway so it's like, okay, I was talking to Frank Slootman about this now of course there are public companies, like we're not taking the foot off the gas. We're inherently profitable, >> Yeah. >> we're growing like crazy, we're going for it. You know? So that's a little bit of a different dynamic. There's a lot of good runway out there, isn't there? >> But also you look at the different companies that were either born or were able to power through those environments are actually better off. You come out stronger in a more dominant position. So Frank, listen, if you see what Frank's done, it's been unbelievable to watch his career, right?. In fact, he was at Data Domain, I was Avamar so, but look at what he's done since, he's crushed it. Right? >> Yeah. >> So for him to say, Hey, I'm going to literally hit the gas and keep going. I think that's the right thing for Snowflake and a right thing for a lot of people. But for people in different roles, I literally say that you have to take it seriously. What you can't be is, well, Frank's in a different situation. What is it...? How many billion does he have in the bank? So it's... >> He's over a billion, you know, over a billion. Well, you're on your way Ed. >> No, no, no, it's good. (Dave chuckles) Okay, I want to ask you about this concept that we've sort of we coined this term called Supercloud. >> Sure. >> You could think of it as the next generation of multi-cloud. The basic premises that multi-cloud was largely a symptom of multi-vendor. Okay. I've done some M&A, I've got some Shadow IT, spinning up, you know, Shadow clouds, projects. But it really wasn't a strategy to have a continuum across clouds. And now we're starting to see ecosystems really build, you know, you've used the term before, standing on the shoulders of giants, you've used that a lot. >> Yep. >> And so we're seeing that. Jerry Chen wrote a seminal piece on Castles in The Cloud, so we coined this term SuperCloud to connote this abstraction layer that hides the underlying complexities and primitives of the individual clouds and then adds value on top of it and can adjudicate and manage, irrespective of physical location, Supercloud. >> Yeah. >> Okay. What do you think about that concept?. How does it maybe relate to some of the things that you're seeing in the industry? >> So, standing on shoulders of giants, right? So I always like to do hard tech either at big company, small companies. So we're probably your definition of a Supercloud. We had a big vision, how to literally solve the core challenge of analytics at scale. How are you going to do that? You're not going to build on your own. So literally we're leveraging the primitives, everything you can get out of the Amazon cloud, everything get out of Google cloud. In fact, we're even looking at what it can get out of this Snowflake cloud, and how do we abstract that out, add value to it? That's where all our patents are. But it becomes a simplified approach. The customers don't care. Well, they care where their data is. But they don't care how you got there, they just want to know the end result. So you simplify, but you gain the advantages. One thing's interesting is, in this particular company, ChaosSearch, people try to always say, at some point the sales cycle they say, no way, hold on, no way that can be fast no way, or whatever the different issue. And initially we used to try to explain our technology, and I would say 60% was explaining the public, cloud capabilities and then how we, harvest those I guess, make them better add value on top and what you're able to get is something you couldn't get from the public clouds themselves and then how we did that across public clouds and then extracted it. So if you think about that like, it's the Shoulders of giants. But what we now do, literally to avoid that conversation because it became a lengthy conversation. So, how do you have a platform for analytics that you can't possibly overwhelm for ingest. All your messy data, no pipelines. Well, you leverage things like S3 and EC2, and you do the different security things. You can go to environments say, you can't possibly overrun me, I could not say that. If I didn't literally build on the shoulders giants of all these public clouds. But the value. So if you're going to do hard tech as a startup, you're going to build, you're going to be the principles of Supercloud. Maybe they're not the same size of Supercloud just looking at Snowflake, but basically, you're going to leverage all that, you abstract it out and that's where you're able to have a lot of values at that. >> So let me ask you, so I don't know if there's a strict definition of Supercloud, We sort of put it out to the community and said, help us define it. So you got to span multiple clouds. It's not just running in each cloud. There's a metadata layer that kind of understands where you're pulling data from. Like you said you can pull data from Snowflake, it sounds like we're not running on Snowflake, correct? >> No, complimentary to them in their different customers. >> Yeah. Okay. >> They want to build on top of a data platform, data apps. >> Right. And of course they're going cross cloud. >> Right. >> Is there a PaaS layer in there? We've said there's probably a Super PaaS layer. You're probably not doing that, but you're allowing people to bring their own, bring your own PaaS sort of thing maybe. >> So we're a little bit different but basically we publish open APIs. We don't have a user interface. We say, keep the user interface. Again, we're solving the challenge of analytics at scale, we're not trying to retrain your analytics, either analysts or your DevOps or your SOV or your Secop team. They use the tools they already use. Elastic search APIs, SQL APIs. So really they program, they build applications on top of us, Equifax is a good example. Case said it coming out later on this week, after 18 months in production but, basically they're building, we provide the abstraction layer, the quote, I'm going to kill it, Jeff Tincher, who owns all of SREs worldwide, said to the effect of, Hey I'm able to rethink what I do for my data pipelines. But then he also talked about how, that he really doesn't have to worry about the data he puts in it. We deal with that. And he just has to, just query on the other side. That simplicity. We couldn't have done that without that. So anyway, what I like about the definition is, if you were going to do something harder in the world, why would you try to rebuild what Amazon, Google and Azure or Snowflake did? You're going to add things on top. We can still do intellectual property. We're still doing patents. So five grand patents all in this. But literally the abstraction layer is the simplification. The end users do not want to know that complexity, even though they ask the questions. >> And I think too, the other attribute is it's ecosystem enablement. Whereas I think, >> Absolutely >> in general, in the Multicloud 1.0 era, the ecosystem wasn't thinking about, okay, how do I build on top and abstract that. So maybe it is Multicloud 2.0, We chose to use Supercloud. So I'm wondering, we're at the security conference, >> RE: INFORCE is there a security Supercloud? Maybe Snyk has the developer Supercloud or maybe Okta has the identity Supercloud. I think CrowdStrike maybe not. Cause CrowdStrike competes with Microsoft. So maybe, because Microsoft, what's interesting, Merritt Bear was just saying, look, we don't show up in the spending data for security because we're not charging for most of our security. We're not trying to make a big business. So that's kind of interesting, but is there a potential for the security Supercloud? >> So, I think so. But also, I'll give you one thing I talked to, just today, at least three different conversations where everyone wants to log data. It's a little bit specific to us, but basically they want to do the security data lake. The idea of, and Snowflake talks about this too. But the idea of putting all the data in one repository and then how do you abstract out and get value from it? Maybe not the perfect, but it becomes simple to do but hard to get value out. So the different players are going to do that. That's what we do. We're able to, once you land it in your S3 or it doesn't matter, cloud of choice, simple storage, we allow you to get after that data, but we take the primitives and hide them from you. And all you do is query the data and we're spinning up stateless computer to go after it. So then if I look around the floor. There's going to be a bunch of these players. I don't think, why would someone in this floor try to recreate what Amazon or Google or Azure had. They're going to build on top of it. And now the key thing is, do you leave it in standard? And now we're open APIs. People are building on top of my open APIs or do you try to put 'em in a walled garden? And they're in, now your Supercloud. Our belief is, part of it is, it needs to be open access and let you go after it. >> Well. And build your applications on top of it openly. >> They come back to snowflake. That's what Snowflake's doing. And they're basically saying, Hey come into our proprietary environment. And the benefit is, and I think both can win. There's a big market. >> I agree. But I think the benefit of Snowflake's is, okay, we're going to have federated governance, we're going to have data sharing, you're going to have access to all the ecosystem players. >> Yep. >> And as everything's going to be controlled and you know what you're getting. The flip side of that is, Databricks is the other end >> Yeah. >> of that spectrum, which is no, no, you got to be open. >> Yeah. >> So what's going to happen, well what's happening clearly, is Snowflake's saying, okay we've got Snowpark. we're going to allow Python, we're going to have an Apache Iceberg. We're going to have open source tooling that you can access. By the way, it's not going to be as good as our waled garden where the flip side of that is you get Databricks coming at it from a data science and data engineering perspective. And there's a lot of gaps in between, aren't there? >> And I think they both win. Like for instance, so we didn't do Snowpark integration. But we work with people building data apps on top of Snowflake or data bricks. And what we do is, we can add value to that, or what we've done, again, using all the Supercloud stuff we're done. But we deal with the unstructured data, the four V's coming at you. You can't pipeline that to save. So we actually could be additive. As they're trying to do like a security data cloud inside of Snowflake or do the same thing in Databricks. That's where we can play. Now, we play with them at the application level that they get some data from them and some data for us. But I believe there's a partnership there that will do it inside their environment. To us they're just another large scaler environment that my customers want to get after data. And they want me to abstract it out and give value. >> So it's another repository to you. >> Yeah. >> Okay. So I think Snowflake recently added support for unstructured data. You chose not to do Snowpark because why? >> Well, so the way they're doing the unstructured data is not bad. It's JSON data. Basically, This is the dilemma. Everyone wants their application developers to be flexible, move fast, securely but just productivity. So you get, give 'em flexibility. The problem with that is analytics on the end want to be structured to be performant. And this is where Snowflake, they have to somehow get that raw data. And it's changing every day because you just let the developers do what they want now, in some structured base, but do what you need to do your business fast and securely. So it completely destroys. So they have large customers trying to do big integrations for this messy data. And it doesn't quite work, cause you literally just can't make the pipelines work. So that's where we're complimentary do it. So now, the particular integration wasn't, we need a little bit deeper integration to do that. So we're integrating, actually, at the data app layer. But we could, see us and I don't, listen. I think Snowflake's a good actor. They're trying to figure out what's best for the customers. And I think we just participate in that. >> Yeah. And I think they're trying to figure out >> Yeah. >> how to grow their ecosystem. Because they know they can't do it all, in fact, >> And we solve the key thing, they just can't do certain things. And we do that well. Yeah, I have SQL but that's where it ends. >> Yeah. >> I do the messy data and how to play with them. >> And when you talk to one of their founders, anyway, Benoit, he comes on the cube and he's like, we start with simple. >> Yeah. >> It reminds me of the guy's some Pure Storage, that guy Coz, he's always like, no, if it starts to get too complicated. So that's why they said all right, we're not going to start out trying to figure out how to do complex joins and workload management. And they turn that into a feature. So like you say, I think both can win. It's a big market. >> I think it's a good model. And I love to see Frank, you know, move. >> Yeah. I forgot So you AVMAR... >> In the day. >> You guys used to hate each other, right? >> No, no, no >> No. I mean, it's all good. >> But the thing is, look what he's done. Like I wouldn't bet against Frank. I think it's a good message. You can see clients trying to do it. Same thing with Databricks, same thing with BigQuery. We get a lot of same dynamic in BigQuery. It's good for a lot of things, but it's not everything you need to do. And there's ways for the ecosystem to play together. >> Well, what's interesting about BigQuery is, it is truly cloud native, as is Snowflake. You know, whereas Amazon Redshift was sort of Parexel, it's cobbled together now. It's great engineering, but BigQuery gets a lot of high marks. But again, there's limitations to everything. That's why companies like yours can exist. >> And that's why.. so back to the Supercloud. It allows me as a company to participate in that because I'm leveraging all the underlying pieces. Which we couldn't be doing what we're doing now, without leveraging the Supercloud concepts right, so... >> Ed, I really appreciate you coming by, help me wrap up today in RE:INFORCE. Always a pleasure seeing you, my friend. >> Thank you. >> All right. Okay, this is a wrap on day one. We'll be back tomorrow. I'll be solo. John Furrier had to fly out but we'll be following what he's doing. This is RE:INFORCE 2022. You're watching theCUBE. I'll see you tomorrow.

>> Produced from the Cube studios. This's strong by science, in depth conversations about science based training, sports performance and all things health and wellness. Here's your hose, Max Marzo. Thank you for being on two. Very, >> very excited about what we have going on for those of you not familiar with that Ella Keira, and I'm going to say his name incorrectly. Look here. Is that correct? Had >> the care is right. Very good. Yes. Also, >> I've practiced that about nineteen times. Oh, the other night, and I can't feel like I get it wrong and is one of the more well rounded individuals I've come across. His work is awesome. Initially learned quite a bit about him from Chase Phelps, who we had on earlier, and that came through Moore from blood flow restriction training. I've had the pleasure of reading up on quite a bit, and his background is more than unique. Well, around his understatement and really excited have on, I call him one of the most unique individuals people need to know about, especially in the sports science sylph sports science world. He really encompasses quite a bit of just about every domain you could think about. So add Thank you for being on here if you don't mind giving a little bit of background and a bio about yourself. >> Thanks so much. You know, not to. Not to warn anybody, really. But it kind of started as a front line medic in the Army. Really? You know, the emphasis back then was a get people back toe action as soon as possible. So that was my mindset. I spent about eight years in an emergency department learning and training through them. I undergo interviews and exercise physiology from University of California. Davis. I love exercise science. I love exercise physiology. Yeah, started doing athletic training because my junior year in college, I was a Division one wrestler. Tor my a c l p c l N L C E o my strength coach, chiropractor, athletic trainer all the above. Help me get back rustling within four months with a brace at a pretty high level of visual. On level on guy was like, Well, I don't want to go to med school, but what I want to do is help other people recover from injury and get back to the activities that they love. And so I was kind of investigating. Try to figure out what I wanted to do, Really want to be an athletic trainer? We didn't realize how much or how little money they make, um And so I was kind of investigating some other things. Checked out physical therapy, dentistry. But I really wanted to be in the locker room. I wanted to have my own practice. I wanted to be able to do what I wanted to do and not sit on protocols and things like that because I don't think that exists. And so I chose chiropractic school. I went to chiropractic school, learned my manual therapy, my manual techniques, diagnosis, loved it, was able to get patients off the street, didn't have tto live and die by insurance and referrals, was able only to open my own clinic. And and about four years in I realized that I didn't really know very much. I knew howto adjust people, and you had to do a little bit soft tissue. But not really. We weren't taught that I felt like my exercise background and really dropped off because I wasn't doing a lot of strength conditioning anymore. And so I went back and got a phD in sports medicine and athletic training. I had a really big goal of publishing and trying to contribute to the literature, but also understanding the literature and how it applies to the clinical science and clinical practice and try to bridge the gap really, between science and in the clinic and love treating patients. I do it every single day. A lot of people think I don't cause I write so much education, but, like I'm still in my clinic right now, twelve hours a day in the last three days, because it's what I love to dio on DH. Then just for kicks and giggles, I went out and got an MBA, too, so I worked in a lot of different environments. Va Medical System, twenty four hour Fitness Corporate I've consulted for a lot of companies like rock tape. It was their medical director. Fisma no trigger point performance. Have done some research for Sarah Gun kind of been able to do a lot with the phD, which I love, but really, my home base is in the clinic in the trenches, helping people get better. In fact, >> activity. That's awesome. Yeah, Tio coming from athletic training back on athlete. So I myself play I. Smit played small Division three basketball, and I'm a certified athletic trainer as well, and it's the initial love you kind of fall into being in that realm, and that's who you typically work with and then realizing that maybe the hours and the practice that they do isn't fit for you and finding ways you can really get a little more hands on work. I took the sports scientists route. It sounds like you're out has been just about everything and all the above. So it's great to hear that because having that well rounded profile, we weren't athlete. Now you've been in the medical side of the street condition inside even the business development side. You really see all domains from different angles. Now I know you are the educational director for smart tools with their blood flow restriction training chase. How younger? Very highly, uh, about your protocols. I've listened to some of them. If you don't mind diving into a little bit, what exactly is blood flow restriction training and what are the potential benefits of it? >> Yeah, you know it is about two thousand fourteen. I got approached by smart tools. They had developed the only FDA listed or at that point of FDA approved instrument assisted soft tissue mobilization tools other people like to call it, you know, basically grass in or whatever. Andi was really intrigued with what their philosophy wass, which was Hey, we want to make things in the US We want to create jobs in the U. S. And and we want to create the highest quality product that also is affordable for the small clinic. Whereas before the options Ray, you know, three thousand dollars here, two thousand dollars here on DH. So I wrote education for smart tools because of that, and because I just blot. I just believed so much in keeping things here in the U. S. And providing jobs and things locally. Um, so that's really where this all started. And in about two thousand fifteen, my buddy Skylar Richards up FC Dallas he has of the MLS. Yes, the the the lowest lost game days in the MLS. And yeah, I mean, when you think about that and how hard that is such a long season, it's such a grind is the longest season in professional sports. You think? Well, what is he doing there? I mean, I really respect his work up there. And so, like, you know, we were working on a project together and how I was fortunate enough to meet him. And I just really got to pick his brand on a lot of stuff and things I was doing in the clinic. And what could I do? Be doing better. And then one day it just goes, you know, have you seen this be afar stuff? And I'm like, No, I have no idea. It's your idea about it. And so, as usual at the science geek that I am, I went and I went to med sports discus. And I was like, Holy crap, man, I can't even I can't even understand how many articles are out there regarding this already. And this is back to you in two thousand fifteen, two thousand sixteen. I was so used to, you know, going and looking up kinesiology, tape research and being really bad. And you gotta kind of apply. You gotta apply a lot of these products to research. That's really not that strong. This was not the case. And so I brought it to neck the CEO of startles. And like, Dude, we've really got a look at this because really, there's only one option, and I saw the parallels between what was happening with Instrument assisted where there wasn't very many options, but they were very, very expensive and what we could do now with another thing that I thought was amazing. And it wasn't a passive modality because I was super excited about because, you know, I had to become a corrective exercise specialist because I knew I didn't have enough time with people to cause to strengthen hypertrophy. But be afar allows me to do that. And so that's really where I kind of switched. My mind went well, I really need to start investigating this and so to answer your question. VFR is the brief and in tremendous occlusion of arterial and venous blood flow, using a tourniquet while exercising at low intensities or even at rest. And so what that means is we basically use it a medical grade tourniquet and restrict the amount of oxygen or blood flow into a limb while it's exercising and totally including Venus, return back to the heart. And what this does is the way that explains my patients. Is it essentially tricks your brain into thinking you're doing high intensity exercise. But you're not and you're protecting tissue and you don't cause any muscle damage that you normally would with high intensity exercise or even low intensity exercise the failure. And so it works perfectly for those people that we can't compromise tissue like for me in a rehab center. >> Gotcha. Yeah, no, it's It's a super interesting area, and it's something that I have dove into not nearly as much as you have. But you can see the benefits really steaming back from its origins right when it was Katsu train in Japan, made for older adults who couldn't really exercise that needed a fine way to induce hypertrophy now being used to help expedite the healing process being used in season after ah, difficult gamed and prove healing, or whether it's not for whether or not it's used to actually substitute a workout. When travel becomes too demanding, toe actually load the system now with B f ar, Are you getting in regards to hypertrophy similar adaptations? Hypertrophy wise. If you were to do be a far with a low low, say, twenty percent of your one right max, compared to something moderately heavier, >> yeah, or exceeds in the time frame. You know, true hypertrophy takes according to the literature, depending on what reference you're looking at at the minimum, twelve weeks, but more likely sixteen weeks. And you've got to train at least sixty five percent. Or you've got to take low intensity loads to find his twenty to thirty five percent of one read max all the way to failure, which we know causes damage to the tissue be a farce. Starts to show hypertrophy changes that we two. So you know, my my best. My so I this It's kind of embarrassing, but it is what it is. But like, you know, I started learning mother our stuff. I'm a earlier Dr. Right? So I go right away and I go by the first product, I can. I have zero idea what I'm doing there. Zero like and a former Mr America and Mr Olympia Former Mr America champion and the one of the youngest Mr Olympia Tze Hor Olympia Mr Olympia ever compete. He competed and hey didn't stand But anyway so high level bodybuilder Okay, whatever you us. But he was definitely Mr America. He comes into my clinic when I was in Denver, It was probably a neighbour of you at the time, and he and he's like, Okay, I got this pain in my in my tryst up. It's been there for six months. I haven't been able to lift this heavy. My my arm isn't his biggest driving me crazy, right? The bodybuilder, of course, is driving him crazy, so I measure it. He's a half inch difference on his involves side versus on uninvolved side. I diagnosed him with Try some tendinitis at zero idea what I'm doing and be a far. But I said, Listen, I want you to use these cuffs. I got to go to Europe. I gotta go lecture in Europe for a couple weeks and I want you two, three times a week. I want you to do three exercise. I like to use the TRX suspension trainer. I've done a lot of work with them, and I really respect their product and I love it for re up. So I said, Listen, I want you three exercises on the suspension trainer I want to do is try to do a bicep. I want to do some, you know, compound exercise, and in that case I gave, Melo wrote, Come back in two weeks. He comes back in the clinic. I remember her is involved. Side was a quarter of an inch larger than his uninvolved type, and he's like, Do, That's two weeks. I'm like, Dude, that's two weeks And he's like, This is crazy and I go, Yeah, I agree. And since then, I've been, like, bought it like it's for hypertrophy. It is unbelievable. You get people that come in and I've had, you know, like after my injury in college rustling I my a c l I've torn it three times. Now, you know, my quad atrophy was bad. My calf was not the same size, literally. Symmetry occurs so quickly. When you start applying these principles, um, it just blows me away. >> So when you're using it, are using it more and isolated manner or are doing more compound exercises. For example, if you're doing a C l artifically assuming they're back too full function ish, Are you doing bodyweight squads or that starting off with the extensions? How do you kind of progress that up program? >> Yeah, it really just depends on where they're at. Like, you know, day with a C l's. You can pretty much start if there's no contraindications, you convey. Stay docks. Start day one. I'm right after surgery to try to prevent as much of that quad wasting that we get from re perfusion, injury and reactive oxygen species. All the other things that occur to literally day one. You can start and you'LL start isolated. You might start with an isometric. I really do like to do isometrics early on in my in my rehab. Um, and you can use the cops and you can You can fatigue out all the motor units if they're not quite air yet. Like, let's say, pre surgically, where they can't use the lamb, they're in a they're either bedridden or they're in a brace or they're a cast. You can use it with electric stim and or a Russian stem. And with that contraction, not only did you drive growth hormone, but you can also prevent atrophy by up to ninety, ninety five percent so you can start early early on, and I like to call it like phases of injury, right? Like pre surgical or pre injury, right at injury, you kind of get into the sub acute phase of inflammation. You kind of progressed isolated exercises and he goingto isolated in compound and you going to compound in any kind of move through the gamut. What's so cool about the afar is you're not having to reinvent the wheel like you use the same protocols, even use. I mean, really. I mean, if you're using lightweight with sarabande or resistance to being which I do every day, I'd be a far on it. Now, instead of your brain thinking you're not doing anything, your brain's like whoa, high intensity exercise. Let's let's help this tissue recovered because it's got to get injured. So we're gonna grow. >> That's yeah, that's pretty amazing. I've used it myself. I do have my smart tools. I'm biased. I like what you're doing. I really like the fact that there's no cords. It's quite mobile, allows us to do sled pushes, resisted marches, whole wide span and movements on DH before we're kind of hopped on air here. You're talking about some of the nutritional interventions you add to that, whether it be vitamin C college in glucose to mean. What specifically are you putting together on DH? Why're you doing that? Is that for tissue healing? >> Yeah, that's right. It's way. Have ah, in my clinic were Multidisciplinary Clinic in Dallas, Texas, and called the Body Lounge is a shameless plug, but way really believe that healing has to start from the inside, that it has to start with the micro nutrients and then the macro nutrients. And then pretty much everything can be prevented and healed with nutrition and exercise. That's what we truly believe, and that's what we try to help people with. The only thing that I use manual therapy for and I do a lot of needling and all these other things is to help people get it down there. Pain down enough so that they can do more movement. And so, from a micro nutrient standpoint, we've gotta hit the things that are going to help with college and synthesis and protein sentences, So that would be protein supplementation that would be vitamin C. We do lots of hydration because most of us were walking around dehydrated. If you look at some of the studies looking at, you know, even with a normal diet, magnesium is deficient. Vitamin C is deficient during the winter all of us are vitamin D deficient Bluetooth. I own production starts, you know, basically go to kneel. So all those things we we will supplement either through I am injection intramuscular injection or through ivy >> and you guys take coral. Someone's on that, too for some of the good Earth ion for the violent de aspects are taking precursors in a c. Are you guys taking glue to file? >> We inject glorify on either in your inner, either in your i V or in in the I am. You know, with the literature supporting that you only absorb about five to ten percent of whatever aural supplementation you take. We try to we try to push it. I am arrive. And then in between sessions, yes, they would take Coral to try to maintain their levels. We do pre, you know, lab testing, prior lab testing after to make sure we're getting the absorption rate. But a lot of our people we already know they don't absorb B twelve vitamin, and so we've got to do it. Injectable. >> Yeah, Chef makes sense with the B f r itself. And when I get a couple of questions knocked out for I go too far off topic. I'm curious about some of these cellars swelling protocols and what that specifically is what's happening physiologically and how you implement that. >> Yeah, so South Swell Protocol, where we like to call a five by five protocol way. Use the tourniquet. It's in the upper extremity at fifty percent limb occlusion pressure at eighty percent limb occlusion pressure in the lower extremity. You keep him on for five minutes, and then you rest for three minutes, meaning I deflate the cuffs. But don't take them off, and then I re inflate it same pressure for five minutes and then deflate for three minutes. You're five on three off for five rounds, justified by five protocol. What's happening is that you're basically you're creating this swelling effect because, remember, there's no Venus return, so nothing is. But you're getting a small trickle in of fluid or blood into that limb. And so what happens is the extra Seiler's extra Styler swelling occurs. Our body is just dying for Homo stasis. The pressures increase, and there's also an osmotic uh, change, and the fluid gets pushed extra. Sara Lee into the muscle cell body starts to think that you're going to break those muscle cells. I think of it as like a gay. A za water balloon is a great analogy that I've heard. So the water balloon is starting to swell that muscle cell starts to swell. Your body thinks your brain thinks that those cells need to protect themselves or otherwise. They're going to break and cause a popped oh sis or die. And so the response is this whole cascade of the Mt. Horsey one, which is basically a pathway for protein synthesis. And that's why they think that you can maintain muscle size in in inactive muscle through the South Swell Protocol and then when we do this, also protocol. I also like to add either isometrics if I can or if they're in a cast at electric stim. I like to use the power dot that's my favorite or a Russian stim unit, and then you consent. Make the setting so that you're getting muscular. Contraction with that appears to drive growth forma, and it drives it about one and a half times high intensity exercise and up to three times more so than baseline. When we have a growth hormone spurt like that and we have enough vitamin C. It allows for college and synthesis. I like to call that a pool of healing. So whether you can or cannot exercise that limb that's injured if I can create that pool of healing systemically now I've got an environment that can heal. So I have zero excuse as a provider not to get people doing something to become, you know, healing faster, basically. And are you >> typically putting that at the end? If they were training? Or is that typically beginning? We're in this session I put in assuming that that is done in conjunction with other movements. Exercises? >> Yeah, so, like, let's say I have a cast on your right leg. You've got a fracture. I failed to mention also that it appears that the Afar also helps with bone healing. There's been a couple studies, Um, so if we could get this increased bone healing and I can't use that limb that I'm going to use the other lambs and I'm going to use your cardiovascular function, um, I'm going to use you know, you Let's say with that leg, I'LL do upper body or a commoner with cuffs on in order to train their cardiovascular systems that way. Maintain aerobic capacity while they're feeling for that leg, I will do crossover exercises, so I'll hit that opposite leg because something happens when I use the cuffs on my left leg. I get a neurological response on my right leg, and I and I maintain strength and I reduced the amount of atrophy that occurs. And it's, you know, it's all in neurological. So if I had an hour with somebody and I was trying to do the cell school protocol, I would probably do it first to make sure because it's a forty minute protocol. It is a long protocol. If you add up five, five minutes on three minutes off now, during the three minutes off, I could be soft tissue work. I can do other things toe help that person. Or I could just have an athletic tournament training room on a table, and they can learn to inflate and deflate on their own. It doesn't like it's not has to be supervised the whole time, and that's usually what they do in my office is I'LL put him in the I V Lounge and i'Ll just teach them how to inflate deflate and they just keep time. Uh and there, go ahead. I mean, interrupt my bowl. No, no, no, it's okay. And then I just hit other areas. So if I do have extra time, then I might Do you know another body pushing upper body pole? I might do, you know, whatever I can with whatever time I have. If you don't have that much time, then you do the best you can with the cells for protocol. And who study just came out that if you only do two rounds of that, you don't get the protein synthesis measured through M. Dorsey long. So a lot of times, people ask me what can I just do this twice and according to the literature looks like No, it's like you have to take it two five because you've got to get enough swelling to make it to make the brain think that you're gonna explode >> those muscle cells. >> Well, let me take a step back and trap process majority of that. So essentially, what you do with the seller swelling protocol is that you initiate initiating protein synthesis by basically tripping the body that those cells themselves are going to break down. And then when you add the message of the electrical muscular stimulation, you're getting the growth hormone response, the otherwise wouldn't. Is >> that correct? That's correct. So and go ahead. So imagine after a game, I just you know, I'm Skyler Richards. I just got done with my team. Were on the bus or on the airport, our airplane. My guys have just finished a match. You know, you're Fords have run seven miles at high intensity sprint. You think we have any muscle breakdown? Probably have a little bit of damage. They gotta play again in a few days, and I want to do things to help the recovery. Now I put them on with East M. They're not doing any exercise. There's just chilling there, just hanging out. But we're getting protein synthesis. We're getting growth hormone production. I give him some vitamin C supplementation. I give him some protein supplementation, and now not only do we have protein census, but we also have growth hormone in college, in formation in the presence of vitamin C. So that's where we kind of get into the recovery, which chase is doing a >> lot of work with and how much vitamin C are supplemented with, >> you know, really depends. I try to stick to ride around in a new patient. I won't go start off three thousand and I'LL go to five thousand milligrams. It will cause a little dirty pants if I can quote some of my mentors so I try to start them light and I'll move them up I'LL go with eyes ten thousand if I need it but typically stay in the three to five thousand range >> And are you having collagen with that as well? >> I personally don't but I think it would be a good idea if he did >> with some of that. I guess I really like the idea of using the B f R a zit on the opposite lake that's injured to increase cortical drive. So we're listeners who aren't familiar when you're training one limb yet a neurological phenomenon that occurs to increase performance in the other limb. And so what ends referred to if you had one lamb that was immobilizing couldn't function. If you use BF are on the other limb, you're able to stimulate, so it's higher type to voter units able have a cortical drive that near maximal intent, which is going to help, then increase the performance of the other leg that you also say that is promoting this positive adaptation environment is kind of hormonal. Malu I per se How long does that last for the presence of growth hormone? >> It looks like that the stimulation last somewhere between forty eight and seventy two hours. And so I think that that's why when they've done studies looking at doing the afar for strength of hypertrophy, you know, five days a week, compared to two to three days a week for two to three days a week, or just essentially equal to the five days a week. So I think it is long enough that if you do it like twice a week that you're going to get enough cross over >> cash it and you're using it two for the anthologies of effect. So what do you using Be fr yu have that temporary time period of time window where a need that might be bothering your doesn't irritate as much. And are you using that window than to train other exercise and movements while they have, ah, pain for emotion. >> Yeah, absolutely. So it's and I really can't explain it. It's, um we know from the science that it doesn't matter what type of exercise that we do. There is an animal Jesus effect. And that's why I emphasized so much with provider, especially manual therapists attend to think, Hey, you know, my my hands or my needles or my laser or my ultrasound or East them or whatever it is, is the healing driver. It's not the healing driver exercises a healing driver, and I know that's my opinion and people argue with me. But it's true. My hands are not nearly as important as getting people moving because of the energies that perfect and just overall health effects. With that said, the Afar has some sort of Anil Jesus effect that I can't explain now. Of course, we all know it's in the brain. There's something that goes on where you're able to reduce the pain level for up to forty five minutes and then I can train in that window. There is an overall ability to improve people's movement even longer than that, to what I find is that once I get people moving their tenancy just like inertia. Once you get to move in, it keeps moving. Same thing with people that I work with. They tend to get moving more in my clinic. They get confidence, then they end up moving more and more and more. And they get away from, um, being >> scared. Yeah, I know that. That's a great way to put it, because you do have that hesitation to move. And when you providing a stimulus that might ease some of the pain momentarily. I know there is some research out there. Look at Tanaka Thie, the ten apathy being like knee pain, essentially the layman's term kind way to put it. And they're doing it with, like the Metrodome in the background going Ping Ping ping. They're having that external stimulus that they focus on to help disassociate the brain and the knee and the pain. And this is something I can't top what chase and how he says. Yeah, we've been using, like you alluded to Thebe fr, too. Remove the presence of pain so they can do something. These exercises that they typically associate with pain in a pain for your way. >> Yeah, And then now that they're exercising now you get the additional Anil Jesus effect of the exercise itself. Says I'm like a double like a double lang >> Gotcha. Yeah, with blood flow restriction train because it does promote such an environment that really has an intense Jane court stimulus to the body where you get this type to five or stimulated high levels of lactate high levels of metabolite accumulation. I said she had paper about the possible use of bloodflow restriction trading cognitive performance has curious if you had a chance account dive into some of that. I love to hear some of your thoughts being that you have such asshole listed view of everything. >> Yeah, definitely. I think I didn't get a chance to look at it. I appreciate you sending that to me because I have to lecture and may on reaction times, and I was trying to figure out how I'm gonna like include the afar in this lecture at some point, not be totally, you know, inauthentic. But now I can. So I totally appreciate it. I know that there is, and I know that there's an additional benefit. I've seen it. I've worked with stroke patients, other types of people that I have auto, immune, disease, different types of conditions where I've used the Afar and their functional capacity improves over what their physical capacity is doing on. And so I am not surprised at what I'm seeing with that. And I've got to learn more about what other people are thinking. It was interesting what you sent me regarding the insulin growth factor one. We know that that's driven up much higher with the Afar compared to low intensity exercise and the relationship between that and cognitive function. So I've gotta dive deeper into it. I'm not definitely not a neuroscientists, You know, I'm like a pretty much floor if I p e teacher and, you know, just trying to get people moving. And I've gotta understand them more because there is a large association between that exercise component and future >> health, not just of muscles but also a brain. Yeah, >> one of things that I do work with a neurosurgeon and he's awesome. Dr. Chat Press Mac is extremely intelligent, and he saw the blood flow restriction trade as one those means to improve cognitive performance, and I didn't find the paper after he had talked about it. Well, the things that interested me was the fact that is this huge dresser, especially in a very controlled where typically, if you're going to get that level of demand on the body, you knew something very intense. So do something that is almost no stress, Feli controlled and then allowing yourself to maybe do some sort of dual processing tasks with its reaction time and reading for use in a diner vision board. Whether if you have a laser on your head, you have to walk in a straight line while keeping that laser dot on a specific screen. I'm excited to see how be afar material or just something other domains. Whether it is, you know, motor learning or reeducation ofthe movement or vestibular therapy. I think this has a very unique place to really stress the body physiologically without meeting to do something that requires lots of equipment for having someone run up and down with a heavy sled. I'd be curious to hear some of your thoughts. I know you haven't had a huge opportunity dive into, but if I had a hand, you the the key to say Hey What do you see in the future for be fr in regards to not just the cognitive standpoint but ways you can use B a far outside of a physical training area. What kinds? Specific domains. You see it being utilised in >> we'LL definitely recovery. I love the fact of, you know, driving growth hormone and supplement incorrectly and letting people heal faster naturally. Ah, I think the ischemic preconditioning protocol is very underutilized and very not known very well, and he's skimming. Preconditioning is when we use one hundred percent occlusion either of the upper extremity or the lower extremity. We keep it on for five minutes and we do two rounds with a three minute rest in between. And I have used this to decrease pain and an athlete prior to going out and playing like a like a high level sport or doing plyometrics. We're doing other things where they're going to get muscle damage to that eye intensity exercise so you get the Anil Jesus effect around an injured tissue. But they really unique thing about the ischemic preconditioning is that it has been shown to reduce the amount of muscle damage that occurs due to the exercise. That's why they call it Preconditioning so we can utilize a prior to a game. We can use a prior to a plyometrics session. We can use it prior to a high intensity lifting session and reduce the amount of damage that occurs to the tissue. So we don't have such a long recovery time when we could continue to train at high levels. I think that that is probably the most exciting thing that I've seen. Absent of cognitive possibilities, I think it wise it on is I'd like to use with the lights. What do some lights? Teo, do some reaction time and do some, you know, memory training and things. And I love to torture my people and get them nice and tired. I think what's going to come around is all these mechanisms. They are what they are. But the true mechanism that I'm seeing is that fatigue is the primary factor. If I can fatigue you centrally and Aiken fatigue, you peripherally and the muscle that's for the adaptation occurs So although right now you know we always are on these. We have to use the specific sets and rats and weights and all these other things so true for the research, because we need to make it is homogenous as we can, but in clinic, if you're a patient, comes to me with a rotator cuff tear. I don't know what you're on, right, Max is for your external rotation. I've gotta guess. And so if I don't do exactly the right amount of weight, doesn't mean I'm not getting the benefit. Well, I'm telling you, anecdotally, that's not true. I just know that I have to take you to fatigue. And so if I'm off by a couple of wraps a big deal, I'm just not going to take you to failure. So I don't get the injury to the tissue that you normally would occur with lightweight to failure. I'm gonna get that fatigue factor. I'm going to get you to adapt, and I'm gonna get you bigger and stronger today than you were yesterday. That's the >> goal. Yeah, that's ah, that's a great way to put it because you're looking at again, you know, mechanisms in why things are occurring versus, you know, being stuck to literature. I have to use twenty percent. How do we find a way to fatigue this system and be fr being a component of that now, outside of blood flow research in train with your practice, it sounds It is quite holistic. Are there any specific areas that you see the other? That was other therapists other, You know, holistic environments could learn from outside of blood flow restriction training. What areas could they really? You know what advice such a safer that I would you give someone who's tried together holistic program to dive into outside of Sebi Afar? Is there any specific devices specific modalities supposed to specific means for a nutrition for that? >> I mean, if I was to try to put us you know what we're trying to dio. I would say that it's all about capacity versus demand. I want to try to maximize the capacity of the individual or the organism to exceed the demands that you're trying to apply to it. If we can do that, will keep you injury free will keep forming. If I allow those demands to exceed your capacity, you're going to get injured. So what can I do to maximize your capacity through nutrition, through exercise, through rest, through meditation, through prayer, through whatever that is through sleep? I think that that's really looking at the person as a whole. And if I can keep thinking about what are the demands that I'm applying? Teo, whatever tissue that is, and I can keep those demands just slightly below and try to increase the capacity, I'm going to get people better. And really, that's all I think about. Can that disk take how much pressure cannot take and what direction can I take it? Well, I'm gonna work at that direction and so we can do a little bit more and a little bit more and a little bit more, and I try to really make it simple for myself versus Reliant on a modality or anything else in that matter. Really, it's It's really just thinking about how much How much can they How much can they tolerate? And I'm goingto put restrictions on you so that you don't exceed that capacities That way that tissue can heal. And if it can't and you know, maybe that's referral to you know, some of the surgeons are non surgical positions that I work with is they may be fail my treatment. Most people can improve their capacity. We've seen eighty five year olds, Not just me, I'm saying in the literature. Improve their strength through resistance training. Eighty five. The body will always adapt. Ware not weak beings were not fragile, Weaken De stressed and we need to be stressed and we need to be stressed until the day that you put me in the grave. Otherwise we will get Sir Compagnia and we will degrade and our brain will become mush. And I just want to go that way. And I want help as many people that have the same philosophy, whether I'm doing it, one on one with somebody from teaching others. I want them now The same philosophy, Tio >> well, that makes total sense. I love the idea of we need to continually stress ourselves because do you feel like as we age, we have a Smith or belief that we can't do more, but we can't do more because we stopped doing more? Not because we can't. I work with an individual who are hey, hip replacement. Ninety six years old. He came back and four months later was working out again. And that alone was enough evidence for me to realize that it's not necessarily about, Oh, as I get older, I have to be this and we kind of have that thought process. As we age, we do less so we start to do left but find ways to stress the system in a way that can handle it right to the idea. What is the capacity, like you said? And what is their ability to adapt? Are there any specific ways that you assess an individual's capacity to handle load? Is that a lot of subject of understanding who they are? Further any other metrics you using whether we sleep tracking H R V for anything in that domain? >> I have not really done a lot of a lot of that. It's more about, you know what they tell me they want to do. You know you want to come in and you want a lift. Your grandkid. Well, that's That's our That's our marker. You want to come in and you want to do the cross that open. Okay, well, that's your marker. You want to come in, you want to run a marathon. That's your marker. You know, we could always find markers either of activities of daily living or they could be something out there. That's that's that. That's a goal. You know, Never don't half marathon, and I want to do that. So those were really the markers that I use haven't gotten into a lot of the other things. My environment, you >> know? I mean, I would love to have ah, >> whole performance center and a research lab and all that stuff and then, you know, maybe someday that with what I have and what I work with, it's it's more about just what the person wants to do and what is something fun for them to do to keep them active and healthy and from, and that really becomes the marker. And if it's not enough, you know, somebody had a e r physician committee as well. You know, I walk, you know, twenty or thirty minutes and then I walked, you know, at work all day. And I'm like Did It's not enough. And I sent him some articles that looking at physiological adaptation to walking and he's like, Yeah, you're right, it's not enough that I'm like, you know, we're a minimalist. Were like Okay, well, this is the vitamin C you need in order to be healthy, not the recommendations are so you don't get scurvy. A lot is a big difference between, you know, fending off disease versus optimal health. I'm out for optimal health, So let's stress the system to the point where we're not injuring ourselves. But we are pushing ourselves because I think there's such a huge physiological and but also psychological benefit to that. >> Yeah, this that's a great way to put it riff. Ending off disease, right? We're not. Our health care system is not very proactive. You have to have something go wrong for your insurance to take care of it. It's very backwards. That's unfortunate. Then we would like to be like. It's a place where let's not look at micro nutrients and you what were putting in her body as a means to what he says you avoided and scurry. Well, let's look at it from way to actually function and function relative to our own capacity in our own goals. Um, with that, are you doing blood work? I'm assuming of some sort. Maybe. >> Yeah, we do. Labs. Teo, look, att. A variety of different things. We don't currently do Hormonal therapy. We've got some partners in town that do that. We decided we wanted to stay in our lane and, you know, really kind of stick to what we do. And so we refer out any hormonal deficiencies. Whether you need some testosterone growth hormone is from other things. Estrogen, progesterone, whatever s. So we're not doing that currently, and we don't see ourselves doing that because we have some great partners that you a much better job than we would ever do. So I'm also a big believer in stay in your lane, refer out, make friends do whatever is best for the patient of the client. Um, because there's that pays way more dividends them than trying to dio everything you know all announce. Unless you have it already in the house that has a specialty. Yeah. No, that >> makes sense to find a way to facilitate and where you can excel. Um >> and I >> know you got a lot of the time crunch here. We have the wrap it up here for people listening. Where can we find more out about yourself? Where can we listen to you? What social media's are you on and one of those handles >> So instagram I'm under just my name Ed. Look, terra e d l e c a r a Facebook. Same thing. Just Ed. Look era Twitter and la Cara. Everything's just under Everclear. Really? Every Tuesday I do would be a far I call it BF our Tuesday I do kind of a lunch and learn fifteen twenty minutes on either a research article or protocol. If I got a question that was asked of me, I'll answer it on DH. That's an ongoing webinar. Every Tuesday I teach live be If our course is pretty much all over the world, you can go to my website at like keira dot com or d m e on any of the social media handles, and I'LL be happy to respond. Or you could just call my client body Launch Park City's dot com and give me a call >> and you're doing educational stuff that's on the B Afar Tuesday and your webinars well are those sign up websites for those, And if so, is it under your website and look era dot com? >> Uh, that's a great point. I really should have it home there. It's if you go on my social media you you'LL see it was all announced that I'm doing No, you know, whatever topic is I try to be on organized on it. I will put a link on my website. My website's getting redone right now, and so I put a link on there for be If our Tuesday under I have >> a whole >> be fr. It's called B F, our master class. It's my online BF our course on underneath there I'LL put a link. Tio might be a far Tuesdays >> gadget. Is there anything you wanna selfishly promote? Cause guys, that is an amazing resource. Everything he's talking about it it's pretty much goal anyway, You can hear more about where you work out any projects, anything that you'd be wanting others to get into or listen to that you're working on that you see, working on the future or anything you just want to share. >> I'm always looking at, you know, teaching you no more courses like love teaching. I love, you know, doing live courses. Esso I currently teach to be if our course I teach the instrument assist. Of course. Programming. I teach a, uh, a cupping movement assessment and Fossen course. So any of those things you can see on my website where I'm gonna be next? We're doing some cool research on recovery with a pretty well known pretty, well known uh, brand which I hope we'll be able to announce at some point. It looks like the afar Mike increased oxygenation in muscle tissue even with the cuffs on. So it looks like it looks like from preliminary studies that the body adapts to the hypoxic environment and my increased oxygenation while the cuffs are on. I'll know more about that soon, but that's pretty exciting. I'Ll release that when I when I can you know? Other than that if I can help anybody else or help a friend that's in Dallas that wants to see me while I'm here. I practiced from seven. AM almost till seven. P. M. Every night on. I'm also happy to consult either Via Skype. Er, >> um, by phone. >> Gosh. And you smart tools use a dotcom. Correct for the CFR cuffs. >> Yeah, you can either. Go toe. Yeah, you can go to my side of you connect with me. If you want to get it, I can get you. Uh, we could probably do a promotional discount. And if you want to get some cups but smart tools plus dot com is is the mother ship where we're at a Cleveland our We're promoting both our live courses and are and our material in our cups. >> I can vouch them firsthand. They're awesome. You guys do Amazing work and information you guys put out is really killer. I mean, the amount of stuff I've been able to learn from you guys and what you've been doing has helped me a ton. It's really, really awesome to see you guys promoting the education that way. And thank you for coming on. I really appreciate it. It was a blast talking Teo again. Guys, go follow him on Instagram. He's got some amazing stuff anyway. You can read about him, learn about him and what he's doing. Please do so and thank you. >> Thank you so much. I really appreciate it a lot of spreading the word and talking to like minded individuals and making friends. You know that I have kind of this ongoing theme of, you know, it's all about, You know, there's two things that we can control in our life. It's really what we put in our mouths and how much we move and people like you that air getting the word out. This information is really important that we've got to take control of our health. We're the only ones responsible. So let's do it. And then if there's other people that can help you reach out to them and and get the help you need. >> Well, that's great. All right, guys. Thank you for listening. Really Appreciate it. And thank you once again

>> Live from Barcelona, Spain, it's theCUBE, covering Cisco Live! Europe. Brought to you by Cisco and it's ecosystem partners. >> Hello, everyone, welcome back to theCUBE coverage here in Barcelona, Spain, of Cisco Live! Europe 2019. I'm John Furrier, Stuart Miniman here in the DevNet Lounge. We've been here all week, three days of coverage, we're on day three. Our next guest is Mandy Whaley, who's the Senior Director of Developer Experience for Cisco DevNet, CUBE alumna, great to see you, thanks for coming on. >> Thanks so much, glad to be here. >> So what a success, we've interviewed you many times. DevNet has now tipped over to the point where over half a million developers in the Cisco ecosystem here, using APIs and cloud-native tools. Upped their game, big time, congratulations. >> Thank you, thank you very much. It's been a very exciting progression since the beginning of DevNet, which was around four and a half years ago. So it's been great to see the community and learn and progress along that way. >> Well, I just want to say, while we're on camera, how proud I am of you guys. Because being there and watching you guys use all your resources and grow this organization to the point where the influence in Cisco has been so massive. You're on the right side of history. All products are now having API, Susie Wee said. So this is now not just a corner group within Cisco, this is now part of the machinery. >> It is, and it's really, we are having APIs across the whole portfolio and up and down the stock, so from the device level up to the controller level, up to the orchestration level. So that's really exciting to see that. And over those years with the progression of DevNet, we've just become more connected into, we're part of our engineering organization, which I think is a great place for a developer group to be, because you have that strong connection to the engineering groups. But just having more and more parts of that portfolio connected in with the developer piece has been really exciting. The other thing that I think has been great about the growth of the community, and what I always notice when we're at Cisco Live!, is that the developer advocates that we have, which are part of my team, it's the people that matter so much. They are really there trying to help people learn, help them move to the next step, and they really care about the community, as much as the community cares about them. And so when we all get together at an event like this, it's fantastic to be able to see that. >> And people are going through the journey, have been there for multiple years now, and new people are coming in at an accelerated rate, the flywheel's going ... >> That's right, yeah. So my first day at Cisco I taught the first Coding for Network Engineers class that we offered at Cisco Live! many years ago. And what's great is that I've seen some of the people who were in that first class, and they're back here today. And now they're doing Kubernetes and Istio and really advanced stuff, and they've really taken that basics that they got and just ran with it, and added more skills, which is great to see. But then we're also seeing just as many new people coming in and that kind of snowball effect of the community scaling up and helping each other and kind of pushing the boundaries. >> Mandy, we've always seen education has always been a strong foundational piece of Cisco Live! I remember back, first time I came to Cisco Live! was over a decade ago, and people were getting their CCIE certification. Give us a little bit of the breadth and depth, because, you know, it's my fourth time in the DevNet Zone, it's always expanding, as you said Kubernetes and Istio and Java were overflowing sessions here, so ... >> Yes, absolutely, so the way that we structure the learning in the DevNet Zone, we have a big focus on hands-on. We have small group workshops, where people are coding during the workshop, and those are many times just completely overflowing, people standing around, soaking it up, sitting on the floor coding. You know, it's been great to see that. But the main things that we have, we have the workshops, and then we have bigger classroom sessions, which cover concepts or even things like culture change, like Dev and Network and Ops working together. Right, like kind of extending on those topics. And then we have a lot of demos going on around the Zone, too. We've got a couple new things this year. One of those is our Start Now zone. This is a new zone within the Zone that we created this time. And it was for the people who said, "I'm really new, I haven't programmed in a while, "I'm not sure if a full-on developer workshop "is right for me, "I want a place to start." So we called it Start Now. And what's going on in that zone is all day, every day, the Intro to Coding, Intro to REST APIs workshops running back-to-back. And every single one of those sessions has been booked full and waitlisted full for the whole week. So that's been great, to see that many people getting started. And then we also have something really new in that zone, which is one-to-one mentoring. So we wanted to give people a chance to come in and say, "I work in data center networking, "I don't know where to start. "Help me, point me in the way, and get me started." So we have people from our advocacy team there, people from the wider DevNet team, people from all across Cisco there as mentors, helping them get started with, like, "This is a great API for you to start with, "these are kind of the basic skills you want to dive into." And just having those conversations a lot of times gives people the push to kind of jump into these new topics. >> What are some of the highlights in the DevNet Zone? Some great demos, the workshops, the classrooms are key. But there's also other demos-- >> Yeah, there's one demo that's been really popular, and it's actually an augmented reality demo, and it uses our DNA Center networking APIs. And what it does, is you can scan a wireless access point, and it will recognize it, and then, using the APIs, bring up all the information about that access point. You can also directionally find where is the nearest access point to me? Like, if you're an engineer who maybe needs to fix something. And then the other thing that's cool is you can turn it on, and in an augmented reality way, see the signal strength overlayed over the space that you're in. So you can troubleshoot and find issues. And our goal with building that demo was, when you think about networking APIs, typically you think about maybe dashboards, automations, which are fantastic and do a lot for you, but we also like to push the boundaries on the kinds of apps that people could think about building, and that augmented reality one is a great one to show that. >> What are the popular sessions? We've seen some overflow, what's getting traction? What's the key booked sessions? >> So we've had two big launches at Cisco Live! overall this week around IOT and also the new ACI data center networking, ACI Anywhere announcements. So the sessions related to those have, of course, been very popular, people jumping in. The Kubernetes, the Istio sessions have been very popular, DNA Center, a lot of people like skilling up on those APIs. And then a lot of the things that are, getting started with Python, learning about different libraries that are relevant to the network automation world. All of those have been really popular, as well. >> Some of the feedback I've gotten from the community is, of course there's the great stuff here, but it's what you do year-round. So the labs are available all the time, I know there's more events and just ongoing learning. Maybe you could share a little bit beyond that. >> Yeah, so we spend a lot of time trying to connect this experience to the online, because not everyone is here, right? In fact, most of the people aren't, they're out in the world. And so all the workshops that are taught here, there's a DevNet Learning Lab that you can do the same material, available online. And then we have our DevNet Sandbox, which is hosted labs. If you don't have a spare network laying around, or you don't have a Kubernetes cluster to work against, you can just instantly reserve them, and a lot of times they are configured in ways that help you do certain use cases. And then we have a new thing that was just launched prior to getting here, which is actually called our Learning Paths, which give a really curated experience around four, you know, enterprise, networking, programming, like, do these eight things. So it's real specific. So that's an exciting thing. The other new thing is Code Exchange. Have you guys heard about Code Exchange? >> Yeah, good buzz about this, explain that. >> Yeah, so we wanted to make it really easy for our developers to find code to start from, so you're not starting from scratch, right? So maybe you want to find something for ACI written in Python, so Code Exchange is a place on DevNet, you can go in, you can search, you can filter by technology and language, and then you get back a curated list of GitHub repos, of projects that people have published on GitHub. So it just helps people discover the things that the community is working on and people can share their code there, as well, and then it'll be featured in that way. So this has been really great, especially for, maybe people new to programming, they don't want to start from a blank page. I don't know that anyone likes starting from a blank page. But it's great, they can find projects, modify them, and start to, we're starting to build out use cases there, as well-- >> It's faster learning. >> Yeah, exactly. >> So, Mandy, I got to ask you, one of the things that has been impressive is you guys saw the future early with APIs. I mean, anyone in the cloud business kind of saw that, but you brought it into Cisco, DevNet. DevNet became that core community that's now programmable with the network. There's still the cloud-native, you have DevNet Create, another event, another kind of concept bringing cloud-native and networking together. Kind of an experiment a few years ago, theCUBE was there, covering it. >> Yeah, that's right. >> And remember? That's evolving, can you share the progress of DevNet Create? >> Yeah, absolutely. So DevNet Create is a smaller, much, much smaller conference than Cisco Live!, and it's solely focused on our developer community, and it is where we really try to connect in with cloud-native, we connect in with a lot of ISVs who may be building cool applications with Cisco partners of all types. It's also very community-driven. We try to have about 80% of the content, 80 to 90% of the content, be from the community, that comes in through the call for papers and is presented there. And so it's a very fun, very conversation, you know, connect people from different parts of the industry together, and get them thinking about what's possible with, we call it, "where apps meet infrastructure." So that includes things like IOT, new kinds of interactions, like voice and location and things like that. So it's coming up, it's in April, it's in Mountain View, and we're really excited, we're heavy into the planning for that right now-- >> April 24th, I believe. >> Yes, April 24th. >> I love how you bring the two worlds together, because there's more learning, shared experiences, but also that's what's happening with Cisco and the world. >> That's right, yeah. >> It's coming together, so you guys are out front on that. Look forward to seeing that. Okay, final question for you, I'll put you on the spot here. >> Oh, no. >> What's it like for you, personally, because you know we've had conversations in the past on theCUBE, and also in person, around the commitment that the DevNet team has, the vision that they saw, and now that it's becoming real, how do you feel, what are some of the learnings that you've had, looking back a few years? >> That's great, I mean, I feel really proud of our team is one thing that's really theirs. As a leader within DevNet it's great to see that the commitment that the team puts in, has the results that we're seeing, and to see them be proud of it is great. And I'm proud of our community, as well, 'cause they're excited. And it's energizing, right? It's great to see that coming together and know that some of the beginnings, when there was a lot of, you know, maybe not everyone understands what we're trying to do, and there's, you know, what is the reason for Cisco diving into developer? And all those kinds of questions, that we're seeing that all come to fruition is pretty exciting. >> Dave Vellante asked Susie Wee about the success of the program, and others have tried, you guys have been successful. So I'll ask the question, what does it take to be successful, to stand up and, or transform a preexisting community with modern, cool tools, without, kind of burning down the old to bring in the new, how do you rise that up, what's the strategy? What's been successful, what's the formula? >> (laughs) I don't know if there's any formula. We always say that, it was interesting because, starting a developer program for Cisco was this really hardware-focused company moving toward software. There was no playbook for how to do developers for this. That was actually one of the reasons I came to Cisco, it was really exciting. And, you know, what we have done a lot is listen to the community, and ask the community, you know, what they are seeing and how we can help, as well as asking that question internally at Cisco. >> Mandy, thanks for coming on theCUBE. I know you're busy, great job, great success, we can certainly testify that your team's working hard, and the team is crankin' out great material. We're in the DevNet Zone-- >> They're also partying hard, John. >> (laughs) >> Yeah, they play hard, see we don't say "party." It's not politically correct. Thank you so much for your support. Great to cover you guys, great content, great people, smart people in theCUBE. That's our formula, we love working with you. >> Thank you so much. >> More live coverage here in the DevNet Zone after this short break. Stay with us. (upbeat electronic music)

>> [Announcer] Live from Los Angeles, it's The Cube, covering E3 2018, brought to you by SiliconANGLE Media. >> Hey welcome back everybody, Jeff Frick here with The Cube, we're at E3 at the LA Convention Center, 68,000 people milling around, but we've got kind of the backdoor access here to the Warner Brothers Games booth, so we're really excited to be back in here, the inner sanctum, talking about some of the new games coming out and we got Phill Ring, he's the Executive Producer of TT Games, Phil, great to see you. >> No, thank you very much for having me. >> Absolutely, so you're in charge of this wonderful game, that we've got on the wall behind us, the Lego DC Super-Villains? >> Sure, yeah, I'm lucky enough to be one of the incredibly talented team, 'cause we're really excited about this game, Lego DC Super-Villains is something we've actually been playing around with as an idea for a while, you get to be the villains, you get to be the bad guys, so we're really excited we actually finally get to show and talk about it. >> Right, after doing what, three games of Batman, so now you get a flip over, you get to be the Riddler or the Joker? >> Yeah, this is it, so with the kind of DC universe, we did the Lego Batman titles, but DC has amazing villains, you've got Joker, you've got Harley, you've got Lex and we were like you know what? Let's play as those, let's do something really cool, let's do a story where we're focusing on the villains, because we've never done it before, we think it'll be quite fun and hopefully people are gonna really enjoy it. >> Great, so it's coming out, so give the particulars for everybody at home, who's waiting to get their order in. >> Sure, so it's available October 16th, it's actually available for pre-order now and depending where you're pre-ordering it from, there's actually a really cool Lex Luthor power-suit mini figure you can get, so it features in the game and then you can actually have that model sat on your desk, so I'm really excited, I'm gonna run off and pre-order it as soon as I can, 'cause I want that figure. >> Well, that's cool, but the other feature you talked about before we turned on the cameras, you can actually make yourself into a Lego figure, right? >> This is really cool, yeah. So when we were looking at this game, we were sat there thinking, okay, villains are really, really cool, but I wonder what it would be like if I could put myself into this world, what happens if I'm playing with Joker and with Lex, so we decided to put the Character Customizer in, so right at the very beginning of the game, Commissioner Gordon's heading to find out some information about this new character and then you customize that character and that's your character, so you make whoever you want, as crazy as you want, there's loads of kind of depth to the Customizer, you can change decors, colors, torsos, facial features, hair pieces and then that character appears throughout the story, so they walk out in a cut scene and that's really cool and then that character unlocks new powers and abilities and becomes stronger as you play through the game. >> Right, so I'm just curious on kind of the evolution of the game, again you did some earlier versions, that weren't the same game, but you know, this one is kind of built onto that, what did you discover, in terms of how people play the game? One of my favorite topics is degree of difficulty, >> Sure. >> How do you figure out the degree of difficulty, to make it difficult enough from excited to attack a challenge and conquer it, but not so difficult, where I'm just banging my head against a wall and throw my controller out the window and say, I just can't get through this thing. >> So that's something that the team do really, really well. We always look at it and go, okay, we know that these games are for a younger audience or at least to start with, so we want something that an eight-year old kid, who may have never played a Lego game before can come along, have loads of fun with this world, so we're making sure that we're kind of educating the player, we have a new tutorial system in this game, where we can show little videos to go, so you've just unlocked this cool power, this is how it works. So we can kind of educate people, but then we know that we're gonna have like either fans of Lego games, but also like DC Comic fans, like we have people kind of telling us, "Oh, I play this with my wife and things," so they want a bit more of a challenge and that's when we get to go into like the Free Play world, so once you're playing the story, you can then go explore all these locations and you find the slightly trickier puzzles, where it's like, oh, I need to figure out what I need to do here, what character do I need, what ability do I need to use? So having that kind of accessibility, so it's really accessible to get into the game, but then there's loads of depth to it, >> Right. >> so that's really cool for us and it's one of these things that we're really kind of happy with, 'cause we also find that the eight-year old kids run around doing all the hard puzzles and we struggle with them, so sometimes it swings, so. >> I was gonna say, so what are some of the things you measure to see if you're hitting that objective? Is it time in a level? Is it time being in there? I mean, what are some of the factors, that you guys are actually looking and measuring to see if you maybe have to make an adjustment, based on the actual behavior? >> So we love getting people to play the game, so we bring kids in and we'll sit there, then we see them playing it and if they're getting stuck, if there's something that's not really kind of standing out to them, if they're spending too much time in an area, not knowing what they're doing, we'll go okay, right, we need to change that, we need to signpost that differently, we need to turn round and say, how can we make it clearer to the player, so they know what they do, but also keep the rewards, so that they feel like they've achieved, that they feel like they've figured it out. >> Right. >> So that's one of the things, like if someone's getting stuck on a level and they're there for like three, four, five minutes and they don't know what to do, we don't want that experience for people, so we'll sit there and go, okay, how can we make that clearer? Is there something we can do? Is there something we can maybe flash a piece of Lego or something and sit there and go, these Lego bricks, maybe you wanna smash those up and that's also really cool, 'cause villains get to smash things up. >> Right, right. >> and go, okay, if I break that, I can make that clearer, then the player will then know what to do and they'll be able to progress. >> So it's really signaling is really the big kind of, way to help them get over that, versus completely changing that piece of the play? >> Yeah, we really do think that we can hopefully change the puzzles to be able to do that, we have had instances though, where we sit there and go, actually, no one gets this, this is too complicated, back to the drawing board and so we'll rip a puzzle out and sit there and go, actually, how do we change this, this is overly complicated, it's too confusing, let's do something different, let's do something that's really cool and it also means that we get to go, let's have a second stab at it and sometimes we get really cool results from it and some of the puzzles are even better than what we had previously, so. >> And the other piece I think is really interesting is clearly these are very well-known brands, Lego's a very well-known brand, DC is a very well-known brand, so you've got a narrative, you've got a story, you have kind of the look and feel, at the same time you want players to be able to do all kinds of things and you don't necessarily know where they're gonna go, how they're gonna interact, so how do you kind of balance the play with the narrative? >> So one of the great things about this game is from a story point of view and a narrative, we actually, it's an original creation and we worked really closely with DC and that allows us to kind of really help with the kind of pacing of the adventure, so as you're playing through and you start off on the first level, when you're breaking out of a prison, you then get dropped into the Open World Hub and we get to signpost people and say, hey, you can go over here to continue the story, but if you wanna go off and explore, you do that, go for it, go see what you can find and then we kind of have something that allows players to keep coming back, because these worlds, we know that there are massive fans of them, so if you turn round to someone and say, you can go to Gotham City, they'll know where they wanna go, like if I'm a Batman fan, I'm like, I'm going to the Iceberg Lounge, I wanna see what it is. So we give players that freedom to really explore it, but then always kind of let them be able to kind of return to the story path and that's another thing that we think is really important, because when people are playing these games, we want them to be able to make the choices of how they play the game. >> Right, great, that's interesting, so if there is a place, that they want to go to, 'cause they love Gotham City, they're big fans of Batman and it's not there, you guys hear a lot of feedback? I mean, do people come back, so that you've got to pump that into the next iteration of the game and the next update? >> Yeah, we do, we listen to what fans do and we've been doing that for years, so ever since we've been doing these DC titles, we sit there and go, what do people wanna do, what do people wanna see? One of the things that I love is that we have massive DC fans in the office, so a lot of the stuff, we'll sit there and we'll see like requests coming in on social media going, I really hope this character's there and we get to look at our character list and go, yep, he's there, who put it in? And then we go chat with them and they go, of course I'm gonna include that character, I love them and some of them are really obscure. >> Right. >> But yeah, we love listening to feedback and seeing what people expect and what they want to see from this world. >> It's really interesting balance, 'cause you get all the leverage from those known brands, those known characters, those known stories, >> Sure. >> but at the same time, as you said, you've got a lot of people, that are really into it and they're gonna hold you to a standard, >> Yeah. >> to make sure, that you're representing everything as they think it really should be. >> Yeah, very much so and this is the other thing about having fans in the office is we keep ourselves to that high standard as well, we sit there and go, it needs to be right, like I am a fan of Gorilla Grodd, he needs to do everything I want him to do, because I know this character inside and out and so when we have people, who are that passionate about the game on staff, we just wanna be able to share that with the world and so when we hear feedback, that people go, "Oh, we love it, it's exactly what I wanted," it's like we love that, it's incredible to know that we kind of feel like we've got it right, we've got these characters right. >> It's so cool though, just the integration of the Legos with all these other brands and just the, and it's not even the Lego blocks, the Lego people and how well it's been able to be integrated with all these other brands and the integration just seems to work so, so, so well. >> Yeah, no, I've been lucky enough to be with TT for over 11 years now, so being able to work on these games and see how we can do a Lego version of these stories and these worlds and these universes, I'm so privileged to be able to do that and the Lego version is different, so Lego DC Super-Villains is a world of DC, that you won't see anywhere else, because it's our take on it, >> Right. >> it's the developer and working with DC, being able to go, let's make something cool and working really closely with Lego and going, what sets are you making? Let's put those in, that's really cool, so. >> It's awesome, alright, well Phill, thanks for taking a few minutes, congratulations on the game and good luck on October 16th. >> Great, thank you very much, thank you. >> Alright, he's Phill, I'm Jeff, you're watching The Cube from E3 and LA Convention center. Thanks for watching. (dynamic music)

(click) >> Well welcome to the special Cube conversation. I'm John Furrier with The Cube. We're here at Sundance Film Festival, Sundance, 2018, special coverage. All the top stories are obviously in the Intel Tech Lounge. All week's been our home base. We've been out on the streets getting the best stories, but one of the most biggest, compelling tech stories is the VR revolution is here. And the impact artist, the new creative. My next guest here is Michael Smit, who is the Chief Commercial Officer of Ziva. Welcome, to The Cube conversation. >> Thanks John, thanks, it's a pleasure to be here. >> You guys have a very impressive company. You're here at the Intel Tech Lounge. You're displaying Ziva. I saw a demo over there. You guys are bringing, I mean, really studio grade quality of animation, and integrated into storytelling. And this is not new for you. But one of the themes of democratization. So, you guys are a key tell sign in my opinion of where the developer, the creative developer market's going. Talk about what you guys are doing. And some of the big things you've done. I know you had some big films. Share a little bit about Ziva, and then we can have a conversation. >> Sure, sure. You know, we like to say, I mean, truly we believe in characters. And at the heart of our technology is character simulation technology. So, here at Sundance, you know, and Intel, we've been working with Intel for a while. They gave us an opportunity to be here. You know, when you think about stories. Stories kind of are driven by characters. And great characters make great stories. So, in our world, great characters are characters that are simulated through physics, and anatomical simulation to achieve levels of plausibility and reality. That previously maybe was only accessible to the very top, you know, budgeted productions. Or the very top VFX studios of the world. >> And what have you worked on? Just share some of the films that you've worked on. And some of the tech. >> Yeah, I'll give a background of the, where I guess the previous kind of, legacy of the technology comes from. But it's actually my partners, who are here with me, have a story record. They actually co-authored the software. You know, 10 years ago or so, that drove characters in titles like, Avatar, and Apes, and the Hobbit. James and Simon, I think they're on a, floating around back there. They've also got a Sci-Tek at home for the engineering work. And the vision here is that, you know, they did that work, and they were really motivated and enthused to do amazing work, amazing results, provide amazing results. They want to enable that same, and provide that same kind of functionality to small studios, big studios, game studios, independents, anyone who wants to tell a great story. >> And there's a huge tsunami. We've been talking at The Cube for the folks watching. Know that, I've been on this narrative around a renaissance in software development. Now we're seeing a renaissance in creative development. And we call that the new creative. Because an organic trend is brewing pretty fast. And used to be, not just Indie filmmakers, we're talking about kids, adults, creatives who are doing filmmaking things, in like virtual reality. And some of the successes that we're seeing, like Baobab Studios is one. They're having the hits around the characters. So, there's a thirst and a demand for technology for characters, but it's hard to build. This is an opportunity for you guys. What's your view on, on that trend? Are you guys going to be a supplier? Can I just use your technology to get characters? And where does this fit into the evolution of say, VR? >> Sure, I mean I touch on that concept of the new creative, because those who want to build and create amazing characters, to tell rich stories, tell immersive experiences. They don't want be, you know, like anything else in our life these days, like anything else that Intel is powering in our life these days. Automation of the simpler tasks should be a given. You don't want creatives to get hung up on, you know, trying to make your cheek look exactly the way it needs to look over 500 frames. When you want them to be making, bringing the story to life. So, our software basically automates a lot of the nuance of organic characters and properties. And the things that make us realistic. And I think it empowers and enables those creatives to tell the stories. >> And how can they tap into Ziva? Because I believe that you guys are on the cusp of something really big. A big trend that no-one's really talking about. And we come at it from a tech angle. So, we can see historically what happened with open source software. I mean 10% of the notional property in most big breakthroughs is the unique IP. 90% of it is reused software. >> Yeah. >> So, you can almost see these dots connecting in this new creative world. You guys seem to be at the forefront of that. Is that part of how people can engage with you? Is that a role you guys see yourselves playing? And, you know, how does someone get a hold of your technology? Do they buy it? Do you license it? How does it work? >> Great question, I mean yeah, we focus on software to make characters. And that's what our customers license from us. We license to studios, we license to Indies. We license to academics. We license to people who want to try it out for free. So, if there's a plug opportunity the url for the website is zivadynamics.com you'll learn a lot more about the company, about some of the work-- >> How expensive is it? I mean, just give a, can you talk about the number? Is it expensive, is it affordable? How does someone who's experimenting, might have their art and their storytelling vision coming to life, and might not have a big budget. >> Yeah so, the Indie licenses basically work out to about 50 bucks a month, per user to leverage the software. Which when you think about previous, maybe less robust implementations of this kind of thinking. We're limited, and we're at the tail end of multi-million dollar investments by huge studios. So, we think that's a pretty good value equation. >> Where are you guys located? Talk about your company, and culture. And what drives you guys. >> Yeah, we're located in Vancouver. You know, we're in one of the epicenters of a lot of creative work, and a lot of filmmaking. In fact, I mean, within a short radius of our studio, the number of game, and visual effects studios, it's amazing. So, you know, but our team's international, in fact, one of our team members is kind of mostly based in Wellington. Another one is actually working in Norway these days. We've got somebody in Los Angeles. So, we're kind of all over the place. And our customer footprint, we've got users in every continent, but Antarctica. >> I wish you could have come on the panel. But we were kind of sold out, we've got a small footprint here at the Intel Tech Lounge in Sundance. And the real theme is, new creative. So, I've got to ask you, in your view what is the new creative mean to you? >> The new creative is somebody who's curious, and they're not scared. They're not concerned with necessarily what it is that they're going to be making, or the media format they're going to be making. They're curious about what story they're going to be telling. And they're going to pursue anything. And they're not going to be shackled by artificial constraints. They're not going to be shackled by budgets that stop them. That make them take creative ideas off the table. They're going to pursue what they can do themselves. They're going to leverage technology in unique ways. And we're going to see some pretty amazing stuff happening. >> Yeah, and it's always, give them more time to work on their art, not worry about the scaffolding in the software to do it. >> That's exactly it. >> What's your take on Sundance this year? Obviously the theme, obviously VR here in the studio. But AI has been the Intel theme as well. We see AI as a critical part of automation. The role of automation in software to assist and augment, and give more opportunities for developers. >> Yeah, yeah I think it, again, it's people that have developed expertise. And we shouldn't look at AI and automation as something to be concerned about. We need to look at it as a tool. And it's to say well, how do I do the last mile? How do I the last 10% of what I do really good, and have all the other stuff kind of taken care of for me. >> Michael what's the hallway conversation, as you know, there's no hallway here in Sundance, it's more of this sidewalk. When you're out at dinner, when you're done here at Intel. When you're out on the streets with your peers, and colleagues, and meeting new people. What's the conversation like this year at Sundance 2018? >> The conversation at Sundance, I mean, it's a conversation that to me, just goes beyond where Sundance has been before. In that, and I think we heard it in some of the panels. But some of the emerging technology used to be like, the additive thing, like now let's go see what's next. Now it's just a part of the big story. And certainly the filmmaking has legacy. Has more experience. Has a lot of amazing stuff. There's so many amazing filmmakers. And amazing content coming out of this place this year. But it's just the variety, the diversity of everything that's happening is just blowing me away. >> Michael Smit with zivadynamics.com check out the website. I think this is a trend that you guys are on. I think the sooner we get to ease of use of the creative developer. Whether it's a filmmaker, VR, and, or, content and digital. They need characters. I want my avatars (laughs) >> That's right. >> Thanks for spending the time, appreciate it. >> Thanks John. >> I'm John Furrier here for The Cube conversation, Sundance Film Festival 2018. We are covering it on the streets. And also here, ground zero for us is the Intel Tech Lounge. It's been buzzing all week with immersive media, not just VR, really showing creative developers a new way to reimagine storytelling. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(click) >> Welcome this special Cube conversation in the Intel Tech Lounge at the Sundance Film Festival. I'm John Furrier with The Cube. We are here with Ari Kuschnir, who is the founder and managing partner of Missing Pieces. Doing some really amazing work on the future of filmmaking. He's got a great entrepreneurial spirit. And creative desire to deliver great product. Welcome! >> Thank you, thank you. >> So, tell them about Missing Pieces and what's going on in your world. So, there's context. Take a minute to explain what you are working on. >> Well, the premise is to be at this intersection of storytelling technology. And to make stuff people actually want to watch. And VR and AR are parts of it. But not the whole. So, I know some of the conversation focus is on, is on VR, and we're just as excited about where storytelling is headed. In terms of what technology allows us to do. But the key for me is. I'm just passionate about, a new thing comes out. And I want to figure out how to make something really great. But meaningful, and powerful with that. >> We were talking before you came out about filmmaking, obviously trained in the discipline, obviously a variety of other things. But I want to get your perspective, we're on top of this new generation, what does that mean to you? When you hear that new generation, a new creative is coming? What does that mean to you? >> Yeah, I feel like I've ridden the wave of the thing as it's happened. And I mean, the company has too. So, I went to film school in the late 90s. And it was the first time you could buy like, first Final Cut, and the first wave of that. So you could make art little movies on the weekend, you no longer needed even to go to the school itself to borrow the equipment. That was revolutionary in 1999. And then 2005, when we started thinking about the company. You know, your Vimeo, YouTube, video i-Pod all come out within five months of each other. Towards the later part of the year. And it's a revolution. It's clear that with distribution, now not only can we make it and edit it in our laptops. But we can put it out, and millions of people could watch it. And that was the first time that was possible. And it was revolutionary. And I think it still is, to some degree. So, we've just, you know, as it evolves what I see is that, it's not, I've always felt like it's not enough to make the sausage as they say. You know, the directors, the talent that I sign now. Like the project we have now here at Sundance, young Jake. Jake is a great example of a creative who you can't fit in a box. He's an Internet artist, he's a rapper. He's an interactive video maker. He did an app called Emoji.Ink. And he does celebrity emoji portraits. He has a hundred thousand followers on Instagram. So, he can command his own audience. So, when a brand, or an agency comes to him. It's a very different approach than when they come for a very straight up work for hire, director's commercial kind of thing. That is the future, I mean. The future is about having a passionate audience, making things for that audience, understanding it. And being able to communicate with them on a daily basis, or a weekly basis in a powerful way, right? Through story. >> Yeah, I mean, you're riding the wave. And the waves are getting bigger. One of the things we do, we do a lot of tech coverage. And we see this in Cloud computing where software changed from Waterfall to Agile. And now the craft's coming back on the software side. But still now, software is eating the creative world. Because now a new wave is coming. So, speak to that, because you're, this is, you can almost look at the old ways. You mentioned the commercials and films. Almost like the Waterfall. You know, crafts, craft it up and you ship it. And you hope it works well. >> Ari: Yeah. >> But now, you have this new model of iteration. Where it's more Agile creative. How do you do Agile, like your artist, and not lose the craft? >> Yeah, well it's a challenge. Look, I've had so many opportunities in our 10 plus year career to kind of go in that direction of just like quantity over quality. And we could just never do it. I mean we're just not cut out for it. But at the same time, I'm not, I never ignore, how to optimize the content based on data, and based on what the landscape is looking like. So, an important thing for example that we consider in every project is context. Like what, how is this project going to be released? Oh, it turns out that, it's really a big social media push. It's not a TV thing. Or it turns out specifically it's Facebook versus Instagram. And that's a very different type of edit. And a very different type of way you start the video. 'Cause you've got a certain, even a different format, and a different way of looking at the content. So, you start to get into, and then you start to iterate, and look at the different ways in which you can repurpose, and rerelease the content, but customize it for each thing. So, you get into this really interesting place where the data is driving the story. And the feedback is driving the story. >> And the audience is part of the journey. >> Yes. And the comments, and the way in which people are taking the thing that you've made and re-interpreting it, is really interesting. And part of the story. >> You trigger a lot of emotion with me, when we're talking, because, you know, as an entrepreneur, I started media businesses turning into, and no-one has even seen this kind of media business before. But I have no media training of any kind. I did a science major. So, there's certain, and I've observed that there's dogma in the journalism business. And there's, but you know, how dare I challenge that, or others. You're doing the same thing. >> I love that by the way. >> So, I want to ask you. What is the dogma with the old world, 'cause the naysayers are usually the ones with the dogma. "Oh, it will never work!" >> Ari: Yeah. >> So, you're on the front end of this new trend. But you're going to have a visibility into what they're thinking, what is that? >> The dogma is, you know, the whole like, there's only big name directors, and you know, it's a certain caliber of work. And that craft is the ultimate thing. And that you just have to make the thing great. And it'll do the thing that is needs to do. Without any thinking in terms of context, or media buyer. How it can actually become a social, socially engaged piece. So, the thing that we're always fighting is some version of that. And then because we came from a scrappy place, but we're now, you know, a pretty legit thing, I think people, some people will still be like, well that's the kind of like, the problem solving sometimes gets interpreted as scrappy. Which is a word I really don't like. And I think-- >> It's a compliment on one hand. >> Yeah. >> But some people look at it as an insult. "Oh, he's just scrappy!" >> Well-- >> "He's not legit!" >> You never want to be the cheap solution. You want to be the solution that people call because nobody else can solve this problem for you. I think we, there's a strand of the company that's like, the kind of like, pick up the phone and we'll figure it out. And, the impossible project that nobody else can do. And then there's another strand where it's just like, you just want to make stuff people actually want to watch. How hard it that? The thing where you could just buy the media, and expect the results is trickier and trickier. >> I mean you could be different, and innovative, but that might not be good. But if you're good doing it, you're differentiated and you're innovating. >> Ari: That's right. >> What's the filmmaking track on that line. Because certainly there's a lot of innovation. And with innovation comes failure. But people are trying to be different. And being different actually is a good thing. What are some of the trends that you're seeing where people are having some success. And where people are stumbling. >> Yeah, that's a good. I mean what I see is, the things that do well take cultural context into account, and again speak to the people in that way. So, it's like a feedback loop that it's creating with its own audience. And we almost always, there's almost always a time in the process when we're dealing with an agency, or a brand where things start to go a little bit like, too, too much, and in that direction that you don't want it to take. Somebody, usually me, or someone will say, "Look, if we make these changes. "Or if we go in this direction. "We won't want to share it. "And if we don't want to share it, "nobody's going to want to share it." So, that becomes a key thing. Whereas before you could sort of away with some of that, now it's like, well, it has to pass this sort of, kind of litmus test in terms of like, are you comfortable with sharing this thing, because it speaks to you or not. >> So, I want to ask you the hard question, we're here at the Intel Tech Lounge, obviously Intel is doing a lot of tech things. They're trying to get all this new tech. And I see it on, whether you watch the NFL playoffs, with, you know, with the camera angles, the games, on basketball games. You see them using the power of technology-- >> We're actually working on an Intel Olympics VR related project that got a little tease ad, CES. So, I can just say that. >> Yeah I know, so what's the tech? What's the cool new game changer in your mind. As a tool that you need to be more successful, and other artists could use? >> Hmmm, well, you tend to, yeah I mean, I think we-- >> John: More horsepower, more compute, more-- >> No, I mean it's really the, What happened with the AR was really interesting, which was, everyone realized, oh, the phone's already in our pocket. While the headset needs to be something that really needs to be standalone. It needs to be $200. You know, like, you sort of, there's different kinds of headsets, of course. They do different kinds of things. But that's an extra hardware. The phone we already have in our pockets. So, everyone's started taking AR seriously. Including the big players. And what that allowed was a, a rethinking of what the possibilities with story would be. So, in some ways this last year has been a readjustment, and a rethinking of, well, what can you do with the phone that you've already got in your pocket. In terms of expanding the storytelling. Or placing a story in the middle of your living room, you know. A layer, using the phone as a window and a layer. But I'm equally as excited about what's coming in VR, interactive VR, room-scale VR, you know. The project that we have here is an interactive 360 project with a phone. >> What's that called? >> It's called On My Way. And the artist is young Jake. And the original conceit of it, is, it's Jake, there's four Jakes in a car. And every time you move the phone to a different Jake, it changes the Jake. So, as soon as it passes the quadrants. So, the four quadrant it kind of swaps the Jake. And that creates a really fun, and interesting thing. And he actually designed it for the phone, vertical. Because that's the way most people are going to experience it. >> John: That's awesome. >> But it's playing on a headset as well. >> Oh you're definitely a new creative. Love chatting with you. >> Thank you. >> Final, well, I have two questions, first one is, Sundance, what's the story this year? What's your report? If you had to go back and your friend asked you to give him a report, "Hey, what happened Ari, "what's going on at Sundance this year?" >> A combination of really interesting high-end VR projects. Some of them leaning into this kind of like more psychedelic less narrative driven stuff. Which I really like. Kind of like really embracing the fact that it's another world, and taking you there. And then the AR stuff. There's a thing called Tender, Ten Day R. Or Tendar. Which is a play on Tinder, by Tinder Claus. Which is, uses augmented reality, and emotion, and machine learning, everything that you could hope for in a really interesting way. So, that's kind of showing you where it's going. So, I think those two things. >> Psychedelic's interesting. I always, I mean this kind of tangent. But in, I've been seeing on The Cube interviews, I think we're going to have a digital hippy revolution. >> Ari: Definitely! >> And it's coming. I mean you can feel it. It's a different culture. >> When I was looking a lot of people, yeah, a lot of people are scared to, I mean, VR is a really great consciousness expanding way to go to get into other worlds. Without, you know-- >> And will all the crap going on in the world today you can almost look at this as a Sixties like movement in this modern era. Where it could be a major catalyst for massive change. >> Yeah, and there's a piece about, you know, this female shaman that grows through the tribe in Ecuador. And became the first ever female shaman for her tribe. And there's a piece called Chorus that, within it. Which is just super weird and trippy. And almost has no plot, but is amazing. >> All right Ari, you've got to run. Quick soundbite. What are you working on, what's exciting you these days? Share a little bit about what's happening. >> A variety of, again it's the full spectrum of storytelling, so it's not one thing. It's really pushing, experiential pushing, branded content pushing, original content that we're getting a lot more into that game. Long form series. VR series. Really, that's kind of the next wave for the company is to set foot, much stronger in the original space, and create our own original IP. Our own original content. >> Awesome, Ari Kuschnir managing partner and founder of Missing Pieces, check them out. Lot of great work. And again, it's a whole new game changing, from storytelling to the tech. The collision between technology and artistry, and creative, and it's happening. It's here at Sundance, at the Intel Tech Lounge. I'm John Furrier with The Cube conversation here at Sundance, which is part of our coverage. Was to look at the angle of Sundance 2018. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> Hello, everyone. Welcome to the special CUBE conversation. I'm John Furrier, the co-founder of SiliconANGLE Media, co-host of theCUBE. We're here at Sundance Film Festival, the Intel Tech Lounge for a one on one conversation with Kane Lee, who's the head of content at Baobab Studios in California. Thanks for joining me here at the Intel Tech Lounge. >> Really excited to be here. >> You know we just had a panel on the new creative here, and Intel is showing some great technology. Things like volumetric, all kinds of really hardcore tech. Really powering some of the VR, AR, mixed reality, all the trends that are happening around user experience. But, a new creative artist is out there. A new storyteller. It could be a 12 year old to a 50 year old. You're in the middle of it. You're an award winning producer. So you're building the stories, you're building the content. What's the biggest thing happening here at Sundance? >> I think it's really interesting, because content has always been my passion. Good storytelling. And growing up, it was always books and films, and all these traditional mediums that inspired me to sort of dream, and right here in Sundance, we're in the middle of a great sea change going on, because technology and art are coming together in such a fast pace, to really usher in the new generation of storytelling, and we're all very fortunate to be in the middle of that. This is a very unique period in our history as humans, and our culture, to challenge what storytelling really means, because VR, for us at Baobab, is the next great medium. And Sundance recognizes that. Technology companies like Intel recognize that. So we're all coming together at the film festival, and working together to define what that will mean. >> Kane, you're an Emmy award winning producer. Baobab's doing some cutting edge work. Take a minute to talk about what Baobab is doing, and why is it so relevant? We know it's cool. We've interviewed the CEO and Founder before. Share with the audience, what is Baobab doing? Why is it so relevant? >> So, we formed a couple years ago, and at the time, VR was, and it still is, in its very nascent stage. One thing that we recognized, was an opportunity to try to create content that would appeal for people from the ages of five to 105. There was a lot of documentaries, there was a lot of experiential art house type of material. And there was a lot of gaming type of content for VR. For us, we're big lovers of animation and how that unites families, kids, grandparents, teenagers, and we saw an opportunity to try to create content that could appeal to all of these different types of people through animation. So that's sort of our mission, is to inspire your childlike sense of wonder, using two mediums that are so meant for each other, which are animation and VR. >> I'd like to talk about some of the work you got going on a little bit later, but I want to talk about that 12 year old in his room, or the 16 year old that's got a full rig, tricked out with the keyboard, they're laying down music, they're building music, they're gaming, they might be creating art. They are a living, breathing creative. And, they're self learning. They're jumping on Youtube. They're jumping into VR meetups and groups. They're self learning. >> Kane: Absolutely. >> How do you connect to them? What do they do? What's the playbook? How do these people go to the next level? What's the industry doing around this? >> I think, one example I'll give is, I was at Annecy Film Festival, and that's one of the biggest animation focused film festivals in the world, and I was showcasing our very first piece, it was called Invasion, starring Ethan Hawke, where you're actually in the body of a bunny rabbit, and you meet another bunny rabbit. You create a bond. And together you thwart an alien invasion on Earth. What was so interesting to me, was I had never seen that sort of, that demo, that teenage demo, where young boys and girls would actually bring their parents back to the experience, and say this is what I want to study in college. This is what I want to do in art school. So, I think that they, growing up with all this new technology, really sort of get the idea of being in realtime, and having storytelling in realtime. And seeing that level of interest from that age group was very sort of affirming to us that we're on the right track, in terms of the next generation of storytelling. >> Well you guys are definitely on the right track, I can say that. But I think what your point confirms, and connects the dots for people that might not be in the industry is that the old tech world was, the geeks did it, software was an art and you had to be in that CS club. The democratization is a big trend here, and what you're talking about is, people are humanizing, they can see real emotional, practical examples. So the young guns, the young kids, they don't have baggage. They look at it with a clean slate and going, I want that. I can see myself using this. I can self actualize with this. So really kind of tips the scales, and proves the point. >> Absolutely. We world premiered Asteroids, our second VR experience, starring Elizabeth Banks, and one of the biggest millennial stars, Ingrid Nilson, last year at Sundance. Even had the first red carpet VR premiere in Sundance history. And watching the younger generation, it was our first piece where we actually used the controllers that had just come out in that past year. And watching them go in with no preconceived notions on what using controllers could be, to be a character in the experience, it was just fascinating, because they picked it up faster than anyone, and learned the language of being a character, and having hand controllers as a robot, so you could play fetch with an alien dog, or you could mirror their actions, or they might mirror yours, and creating these bonds and these experiences. So, that sort of fresh perspective is really exciting. >> Talk about the role of these experiences, and how they connect people, because one of the big trends also online today, in today's, I would say, yeah the peg the evolution is, you're really getting into the immersive experience, I believe that. But, content creates bonds between people, and good experiences creates glue between relationships, and forges new ones, maybe enhances existing ones. This is a big part of the media. >> Absolutely. For us, emotional connection is the key to getting people to put on headsets, and to come back to our experiences. And that emotional connection for us, is what we've witnessed, in terms of people forming bonds with our characters. So, everyone knows that VR can bring you to brand new worlds, and exciting places, and immerse you in places that you can never go. But, the one thing that I think we learned in our experience with VR, is that if you can create a bond between the user and other characters in the experience that they believe is real, and we use psychology, technology, and storytelling to do that, then they want to come back again and again. So, one of the trickiest parts of VR is trying to get people to have repeat views. And the feedback we've gotten from a lot of the technology platforms is people come back time and time again, and it seems to be because they actually believe these characters are real, and that they're friends. >> So talk about your journey, because you're at the front end of this wave, and you're participating, you're creating art, you're creating work product. You're building technology with the Baobab Studios. What would you do if you were 16? If you were a sophomore in high school, knowing what you know, and you could go back in time, or you could be today what you know at 16, what would you do? >> When I was 16, I had no idea what I was going to do. When I graduated from college, I had no idea what I was going to do. But what I will say is, VR is really unique because it's so interdisciplinary. So, it actually invites people from all different fabrics of society, and different types of education. The most, I would encourage 16 year olds to just be who they are, and to play. And if I talked to my 16 year old self, I would have just encouraged myself to follow my interest and pursuits more, because many years later, actually VR has brought me back to a lot of my roots, and different things that I studied growing up, and was fascinated by. >> So it ignited your passion. >> Absolutely. >> Or things that you were really into, that you might have forgotten. Is that- >> Yeah, I studied something called symbolic systems at Stanford University, and I had no idea what I was doing. It combined computer science, psychology, linguistics, and philosophy. And the first thing I did after college was pursue potentially a career as a lawyer. But now it all makes sense. VR makes, brings everything together. >> What could have been, you know? >> Absolutely. >> Well, a lot of neural network, symbolic systems, this is the underpinnings of this complex fabric that is powering this content market. So I'd love to get your thoughts. Is there a success formula that you're seeing emerging, I know there's no silver bullet yet. A lot of experimentation. A lot of new things happening. But as this technology, and the scaffolding around it is being built, while also original content is being built, it's still evolving. What's the success formula, and what's the pitfall? What to stay away from? >> I think it's about, it's really about good storytelling. And I think it's a time to be courageous and brave, and put forward stories that wouldn't have otherwise been told in the more traditional mediums. Our latest project in production that I'm so personally excited about, is called Legend of Crow. It stars John Legend as a beautiful bird with the most beautiful feathers, and the most gorgeous voice, who during dark and cold times, must go on a heroes journey to bring light back to the world. Something I feel like in this day and age, a lot of people can relate to. But, on top of this story being based upon a beautiful Native American legend that hasn't really been exposed to the world, we've taken the opportunity to take the themes of diversity and self sacrifice, and self acceptance, to create an all star cast of minorities and women, and that's something I feel the younger generations can really relate to, because having worked a lot in Hollywood as a producer in traditional TV and film, things take a while, and there's a certain way of casting and doing things that follow an older model, and I think younger audiences are excited to have a character like Moth in our experience who speaks both Spanish and English, because that's the way the world is today. >> So I got to ask you a quick, you brought up diversity and inclusion kind of in your comment. I got to bring this up, because you guys do hit a nice demographic that I think is super relevant and important, the younger generation. So I talk to a lot of young people all the time. I say things like, you don't need to be a computer scientist to get into this game. You can be super smart. You don't need to learn how to code hardcore coding to get into this. And they respond to that. And that's one kind of, I would say, narrative that conventional wisdom might not be right. And the other one is the diversity. So my son, 16 year old, says, "Dad, your generation is so politically correct. All this nonsense." So, the younger generation is not living what we're living in, in these dark times, I would say, certainly with diversity, but how does VR really equalize? And will the storm pass? Diversity, inclusion, all that great stuff that are core issues, certainly are being worked on. But, do we see hope here? >> Absolutely. I think disruption in the form of a new technology and a new medium is, while scary to some people, is actually the most exciting and fertile time to equalize. Our CEO, Maureen Fan, who is a college classmate of mine, always wanted to work in animation. And she finally saw the right opportunity when VR came, and we put on headsets for the first time, and saw how there could be a new wave of exciting animators, through this disruptive technology. Because everyone else in more traditional animation is so focused on the old model, and the old ways of doing things, of getting things off the ground, of financing, of creating certain kinds of content that have been proven over time, in the old sort of studio model. >> What were some of those things that were instrumental in this breakout, to forge this new ground? >> I think a lot of it is the technology finally being ready. Our CTO, Larry Cutler, actually studied virtual reality at Stanford a decade before Maureen and I were there, and he had always been waiting for the right time to go into VR. >> Does he preach down, hey kids, I used to walk in the snow with bare feet to you guys, or has he, what's his role, how's he doing? >> He's amazing. He was the head of global character tech for all of Dreamworks animation, and like I said, I think one thing that distinguishes us from some of the other people in VR is that we're so focused on characters, so focused on them making eye contact with you, or with their facial features reacting in realtime, and being very believable, and forging that bond between you and that character. So, for us, that character technology, and having the top people in that space work with us, is the long term thing that is going to differentiate us from the crowd. >> I'd like to get your reaction to my comment about the computer science, and that's mainly, mostly a Silicon Valley thing, living in Palo Alto, so, but people are struggling when they go to college. What should I major in? And there's a narrative right now, oh you got to learn how to code, you got to be a computer science major. You don't. You don't have to be a CS major. Some of the most creative and technical brilliance can also come from other disciplines. What's your reaction to that, and what's your advice? >> I think people should just follow their effort. Because, if you follow what naturally comes to you, what you're good at, and that also has meaning and interest to you, and something that you can get feedback along the way, which is the great thing about being in a growing space, you are going to just spend your, you're going to spend a lot of late nights doing that stuff, and you can always bring it into your career path when that happens. And I think, we're in a very DIY time in VR. No one knows anything. We're constantly making mistakes, but then learning from them. And that's the most exciting process of being where we are. So, to people who are of college age, I would just tell them follow your effort. If you're interested in VR, it's an exciting time to just do it yourself. Learn from your mistakes. And then, and try to create something new. >> What does the new creative mean to you. When you hear that, new creative, what does that mean to you? >> You know, it's interesting being at these talks and panels, and at all these festivals, because I feel like a lot of people are looking for that new innovator who comes out of nowhere, and sort of just redefines the industry. And that could very well happen. But I actually think what's really exciting about right now is, it's more about having, understanding the bridge between all the different mediums and disciplines. I think new things are created when you combine areas that have not been traditionally aligned. So for example, Orson Welles arguably created one of the first great cinematic masterpieces in Citizen Kane, but he was able to do so by bringing values from theater, and from radio, and areas where he sort of learned the art of storytelling. And he was able to combine them in new and interesting ways that people hadn't seen before. So, for me it's less about looking for that silver bullet of a creative person who comes out of nowhere, but these younger generations who understand these different mediums, combining them and creating connections with them in an exciting way. >> Brooks Brown from Starbury Studios said on the panel, the next breakout star is going to be the kid in the basement that no one's ever heard of. >> Very possibly, but that kid in the basement, he needs to be passionate about a lot of different disciplines. So, what we've tried to emulate in doing so, is bringing the best people in gaming, bringing the best people from traditional film, bringing people who had interests in a lot of different areas, different art forms, and letting them kind of play together and learn from each other. Argue with each other, you know? And then come up with something that no one's seen before. >> We're going to have to come up with a camera, so that could be like an experiment. Like it's just a reality show in and of itself. All that talent, multi discipline together. >> Absolutely. >> John: It's like dynamite ready to explode. >> It's the challenge, it's the blessing, it's the curse and the blessing of our medium right now, because there's so much more to discover, but if people come in and have an open mind, and are willing ... If the people from Hollywood are willing to learn from the people who do gaming in Silicon Valley, who are open to learning from the people in New York who grew up on live theater, I feel those, finding that intersection, finding those beautiful intersections are where we're going to thrive. >> Well you guys highlight that multi disciplinary thing, but also highlights why diversity is so important. Diversity brings the most perspectives to the table, the most data, most contribution. It might be a little bit longer to work through the arguments, right? You got to be patient. >> Absolutely you have to be patient. We're really lucky to be working with John Legend on our VR piece. He had actually been looking for several years to find, wanting to play in this space, but not wanting to do it with the wrong partner at the wrong time. So, it's, there's an art to timing in everything that we do right now, and when we presented to him the story we're doing with the Legend of Crow, it felt like the perfect sort of match. >> Legend of Crow coming out. Head of Content, Kane Lee here, Baobab Studios. Thanks for spending the time here on the Cube Conversation. What's the timing of the release of the program? >> Probably late spring, but we're going to be announcing some news around that soon, and we have some more exciting updates about it that I can't wait to share. >> Alright, we are here at the Intel Tech Lounge as the Cube's Conversation at Sundance Film Festival, part of our coverage of Sundance 2018. I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching.

>> Announcer: Live from Las Vegas, it's The Cube, covering Interconnect 2017, brought to you by IBM. >> Okay, welcome back everyone. Here, live in Las Vegas for IBM Interconnect 2017, this is SiliconANGLE's The Cube's coverage. Three days, a lot of great interviews, more in day two here. I'm John Furrier, my co-host Dave Vellante, our next guest is Tanya Seajay, founder and CEO of Orenda Software Solutions. Welcome to The Cube. >> Thank you so much. >> So, your company does a lot of cool things with data. One of the things, obviously, in the news, you can't read a story these days without hearing something about Trump, Uber, bad behavior. >> Dave: Fake news. >> Fake news, there's always scandal. It's the internet, for crying out loud. Everything's going on, but reputation now is measurable and data is out there and companies now as they go on to digital as a medium end to end for marketing and engaging customers, they got to be careful. What's your take? What's going on in this marketplace? >> There's a couple of things that are happening simultaneously. One is, we talked about this just briefly, the Edelman Trust Barometer. It's a global survey that's done every year, and it started I believe in 2010. In 2017, the findings were that we are in a trust crisis globally, and you would have heard that from Marc with Salesforce today. That's what he was referencing. At the same time, PricewaterhouseCooper came out with another survey across North America, and it was that we are in the midst of a trust economy and trust is growing. So, at one point, we used to make our buying decisions on whether or not a product was convenient or a good sale price, those kinds of things. Now, we want to know whether or not we trust the brand, whether or not we trust the CEO, and whether or not the companies have purpose. So, our buying decisions are changing, so not only are we in a trust crisis but we are also a trust economy. So, measuring trust is exceptionally important and a value to all brands globally. >> This purpose thing is interesting. We've been seeing the same thing, and we just had South by Southwest, Intel. We were headlining the Intel AI Lounge, and they had this program, AI for Social Good, which has got a great program. It's on our YouTube channel, youtube.com/siliconangle, folks that are watching, but there's a counterculture going on right now, we're seeing in this world. The younger audience is coming in, the new generation, the digital natives. They're living in a digital world 100%, so there seems to be a counterculture of anti-what it was, pre-now, internet, what it was before, trolling, all this stuff's been around for a while. But you're starting to see people really focus in on good and mission purpose. There's an element where there's a new generation saying, we want to apply tech for good, and you're seeing it with equality, they mentioned a lot of things on the stage today. But beyond that, it's kind of this post-9/11 generation where, like, hey what are you, all you old people bickering about? Just do social good. I mean, do you seeing that too? We're seeing a lot of it across the board. Can you share any stories in this area? >> Yeah, social good is really important in terms of giving back to your community, and in the communities where you do business, you want to have that connection. So, when we were creating Orenda, the software that measures trust, it also measures a few other things. We went back into about 30 years of research in social science and selected, there are six key factors to a healthy relationship, and what we were calling corporate social responsibility is now just more or less social good. So, you want to do things that are good to the communities that you do business in, and there's also the exchange of benefits. I do something for you, you do something for me, which brings in the more collaborative systems and partnership ecosystems that exist. >> It's a community model, too. With open source growing, connected internet, everyone's connected to each other. That's a community framework. >> That's right. >> And that's kind of the, seems to be the trend. >> It is a trend, and at one point, companies used to market to their customers. Now, you see something quite different. Customers are empowered and they're engaging through content so the exchange is continuous. One of the examples we have is with Apple. So, every time your heart beats, someone is talking about Apple. It is so huge. >> The velocity, you mean the velocity. >> Yeah, just the velocity. There's so much information coming out. We were following 25 different companies in December, and we pulled in five million data points. So, that's the amount of information that is coming at us and at brands at any particular time. What we need to do was turn that into insights in real time. If not, it's useless. >> It's interesting you mention Apple. So, we have a data science group within SiliconANGLE, The Cube. We call it our cognitive beta program. We haven't released it yet, but we're looking at all the Twitter data and we can actually see all the tweets. And then, we can extrapolate the users and obviously get all the data, which phone they're using, tweeting from. And that came out, you saw Trump was on an Android, an iPhone. And here at this show, based on the data that we have, 76% of this audience, here and online, is iPhone over Android. So, you say, okay, big deal, ho-hum. Actually, demographically, it matters. Now, some shows, the more geeky shows, you'll see Android over iPhone, so it's a small little data point. But you can almost, like that movie Contact, where you open up one door, you can get all those different insights. So, a small data point like that could add to other data. >> It could, and it's unlocking it, like you said, that is the most important part. You can get all this data. You can get it continuously. But unlocking it and telling everybody what it means to them, and it can mean something different depending on what kind of solution or problem that you're trying to overcome. But yeah. >> Yeah, and the other concepts we follow a lot in the big data world is data at rest and data in motion. And Dave and I were just at breakfast this morning, talking about content and motion brands and motion. So, your company really is measuring the brand in motion, right? >> That's right. >> So, this is kind of a cool new cutting edge coolness. >> It's really cool. >> Explain what's going on there. What's the cutting edge tech? What are some stories? Good, bad, and the ugly? >> One of the interesting things that we just did is we were following five of the biggest banks in Canada, and at the same time, CBC, which is the national broadcasting company, did this go public article and it was extremely negative. And we were tracking them, so we were able to show in real time the trust levels dropping. And in correlation to that, we looked at the stock prices of those companies, and they were also dropping. So, to be able to demonstrate that the brand itself, the reputation, particularly trust, was what the issue was, and that makes a lot of sense. It's money, it's banks, it's trust. That's what's going to be impacted the most. But being able to correlate that, it's a piece of information that we haven't been able to use before. >> So, that's insight. So now, the actionable insight is, wow we should send someone in there digitally, parachute into the virtual news cycle, and provide content or perspective. I'm saying, they can get in, stop that bleeding. >> Get in and stop the bleeding. And the other thing is that they were five national banks, but only one of them was taking the hit for it. They were the actual face of the issue. So, to be able to say, we're all being hit by this particular news story, yes, but you're being hit the most. >> It's a classic public relations problem. If you don't react, then it gets settled in, it becomes a matter of fact. >> Yeah, so you need to be able to deal with that escalation in real time. >> So, what do you guys do that's different than, a lot of sentiment analysis and it's kind of an overcrowded space. >> Tanya: It's a busy space, yeah. >> What's unique in what you guys do? >> What's unique is the actual social science on top of that. So, there is positive, negative, which gives you a little bit of information. What we did is just put on a whole other filter, and we use social science to do that. So, in order to show the brand momentum that needs to exist for a more resilient company, we said we need to know whether or not trust is increasing or decreasing, commitment with the brand or loyalty to the brand is increasing or decreasing. This is really important information. Positive, negative just doesn't tell you enough. So, when you are doing your messaging from a public relations point, you know to talk about integrity if there's a trust issue that you're dealing with. If it's satisfaction, then it's something that you want to do better in terms of a particular product. So, you get to focus on what the actual problem is, so that's how we're absolutely unique, is that we're able to measure emotion in a very different way, through social science and key factors that need to exist for a healthy brand. >> And the secret sauce behind the tech is what? Is it some cognitive, it's data science? >> We do a couple of things. So, one of the reasons why we partnered with IBM and are using Watson, the APIs, is that we built our own algorithms and we have it interact with a huge dictionary of words that we use. And we had to be able to customize that because the way we use language is always different. The way we talk about oil gas is different than we would talk about Coca-Cola, say. So, we had to be able to customize the dictionary so that if we use the word recall with a car manufacturer, that's extremely negative. But recall within the healthcare system is probably neutral. So, we had to be able to make those differences. So then, we also use AI. We use the Personality Insights tool within Watson, so we can take a whole customer buying group, look at them as an individual's huge amounts of data, millions and millions of data points, and say this is what this particular customer group or stakeholder group, this is what they need as a group, this is what they value, these are their key personalities. So again, you just get that deeper insight into who's buying your product. >> And the data sources? Talk about where the data comes from. >> The data comes from social media, and why that's really important is because within public relations and communications, there's always been focus groups, right, where you try to pull out insights into our brand from focus groups or surveys. >> Weeks and weeks and weeks of research. >> Right? Weeks and weeks of research. And you still have just a certain amount of data that you get to deal with. This, we treat social media as a huge focus group with tremendous amounts of data, tremendous amounts of insights, and we can pull it out in real time. So, if there's an issue that is escalating, we can say this is what your customer base is saying about you, this is how the impact is. We don't have to go through months of research to deal with an issue we need to deal with within 10 minutes, usually. >> So, Twitter's obviously a huge source of data, is that correct? >> Twitter's huge. >> 'Cause it's so real time and there's so much of it. What other sources? Is that the primary or a primary source? >> Facebook is interesting. You can get public information, but you can't private. Instagram is another. Blogs are a great source of information as well. Almost any online information where there's engagement, so there's a conversation that's taking place. If it's static, it doesn't, it doesn't really have an impact on you, right? >> Is there third party data sources that you use that other people use as well? Is it Twitter Firehose? Is it RSS feeds? Is there like a syndicate of data sources? >> We use GNIP, so that's owned by Twitter. Yeah, that's what we use. >> But for blogs, how do they get the blogs? >> You scrape them. >> So you scrape them. So RSS feeds and. >> Yeah, and I really enjoy the fact that a lot of governments are going into open source data, so the more we get, the better it is. We have a couple of relationships, partnerships with national media sources as well, so we're able to use that and go back into time, thankfully, from their end. >> Tanya, what's the coolest or weirdest discovery you've made with the data? Because as you get all this gesture data, I'm sure there's some things that just, whoa. >> One of the funnest for me, I'm a bit of a political nerd, and so I really, really enjoy politics. And when we were building out Orenda, we used the federal election in Canada, and yes we did do some with the US election too, but it was so much data, it was. (John and Dave laugh) >> John: Big tsunami. >> Yeah, thanks a lot, John. >> It's not stopping by the way either. It's continuing to go on. >> But yeah, the funniest moment, that one, just as an aside, was the whole, would you rather have Trump or a mozza stick as president, which was, really gained popularity. But for the federal election, what we did was follow the four federal candidates, and we were able to show when we stopped as a nation talking about Thomas Mulcair as the next leader and when we started talking about Justin Trudeau. And we were able to predict that Justin Trudeau's brand was building momentum, weeks before the polls came out and said that the machine changed. >> This year's contender. Alright. Well, Tanya, thanks so much for coming on The Cube. Really appreciate it. I love what you guys do. I think that's, you're on the cutting edge of really compelling social science, and as the culture deals with autonomous driving cars and smart cities, I think this is going to be an ongoing field of study of understanding the relationship between data and humans with respect to societal changes. So, again, this is I think one small use case of really an exploding area. So, thanks for sharing. It's The Cube here live in Las Vegas. For more Interconnect coverage, after this short break, I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante. We'll be right back. Stay with us.

>> Announcer: Live from San Jose, California, it's theCUBE, covering Big Data Silicon Valley 2017. (light techno music) >> Hey, welcome back everybody. Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're at Big Data SV, wrapping up with two days of wall-to-wall coverage of Big Data SV which is associated with Strata Comp, which is part of Big Data Week, which always becomes the epicenter of the big data world for a week here in San Jose. We're at the historic Pagoda Lounge, and we're excited to have our next two guests, talking a little bit different twist on big data that maybe you hadn't thought of. We've got Ravi Dharnikota, he is the Chief Enterprise Architect at SnapLogic, welcome. - Hello. >> Jeff: And he has brought along a customer, Katharine Matsumoto, she is a Data Scientist at eero, welcome. >> Thank you, thanks for having us. >> Jeff: Absolutely, so we had SnapLogic on a little earlier with Garavs, but tell us a little bit about eero. I've never heard of eero before, for folks that aren't familiar with the company. >> Yeah, so eero is a start-up based in San Francisco. We are sort of driven to increase home connectivity, both the performance and the ease of use, as wifi becomes totally a part of everyday life. We do that. We've created the world's first mesh wifi system. >> Okay. >> So that means you have, for an average home, three different individual units, and you plug one in to replace your router, and then the other three get plugged in throughout the home just to power, and they're able to spread coverage, reliability, speed, throughout your homes. No more buffering, dead zones, in that way back bedroom. >> Jeff: And it's a consumer product-- >> Yes. >> So you got all the fun and challenges of manufacturing, you've got the fun challenges of distribution, consumer marketing, so a lot of challenges for a start-up. But you guys are doing great. Why SnapLogic? >> Yeah, so in addition to the challenges with the hardware, we also are a really strong software. So, everything is either set up via the app. We are not just the backbone to your home's connectivity, but also part of it, so we're sending a lot of information back from our devices to be able to learn and improve the wifi that we're delivering based on the data we get back. So that's a lot of data, a lot of different teams working on different pieces. So when we were looking at launch, how do we integrate all of that information together to make it accessible to business users across different teams, and also how do we handle the scale. I made a checklist (laughs), and SnapLogic was really the only one that seemed to be able to deliver on both of those promises with a look to the future of like, I don't know what my next Sass product is, I don't know what our next API point we're going to need to hit is, sort of the flexibility of that as well as the fact that we have analysts were able to pick it up, engineers were able to pick it up, and I could still manage all the software written by, or the pipelines written by each of those different groups without having to read whatever version of code they're writing. >> Right, so Ravi, we heard you guys are like doubling your customer base every year, and lots of big names, Adobe we talked about earlier today. But I don't know that most people would think of SnapLogic really, as a solution to a start-up mesh network company. >> Yeah, absolutely, so that's a great point though, let me just start off with saying that in this new world, we don't discriminate-- (guest and host laugh) we integrate and we don't discriminate. In this new world that I speak about is social media, you know-- >> Jeff: Do you bus? (all laugh) >> So I will get to that. (all laugh) So, social, mobile, analytics, and cloud. And in this world, people have this thing which we fondly call integrators' dilemma. You want to integrate apps, you go to a different tool set. You integrate data, you start thinking about different tool sets. So we want to dispel that and really provide a unified platform for both apps and data. So remember, when we are seeing all the apps move into the cloud and being provided as services, but the data systems are also moving to the cloud. You got your data warehouses, databases, your BI systems, analytical tools, all are being provided to you as services. So, in this world data is data. If it's apps, it's probably schema mapping. If it's data systems, it's transformations moving from one end to the other. So, we're here to solve both those challenges in this new world with a unified platform. And it also helps that our lineage and the brain trust that brings us here, we did this a couple of decades ago and we're here to reinvent that space. >> Well, we expect you to bring Clayton Christensen on next time you come to visit, because he needs a new book, and I think that's a good one. (all laugh) But I think it was a really interesting part of the story though too, is you have such a dynamic product. Right, if you looked at your boxes, I've got the website pulled up, you wouldn't necessarily think of the dynamic nature that you're constantly tweaking and taking the data from the boxes to change the service that you're delivering. It's not just this thing that you made to a spec that you shipped out the door. >> Yeah, and that's really where the auto connected, we did 20 from our updates last year. We had problems with customers would have the same box for three years, and the technology change, the chips change, but their wifi service is the same, and we're constantly innovating and being able to push those out, but if you're going to do that many updates, you need a lot of feedback on the updates because things break when you update sometimes, and we've been able to build systems that catch that that are able to identify changes that say, not one person could be able to do by looking at their own things or just with support. We have leading indicators across all sorts of different stability and performance and different devices, so if Xbox changes their protocols, we can identify that really quickly. And that's sort of the goal of having all the data in one place across customer support and manufacturing. We can easily pinpoint where in the many different complicated factors you can find the problem. >> Have issues. - Yeah. >> So, I've actually got questions for both of you. Ravi, starting with you, it sounds like you're trying to tackle a challenge that in today's tools would have included Kafka at the data integration level, and there it's very much a hub and spoke approach. And I guess it's also, you would think of the application level integration more like the TIBCO and other EAI vendors in a previous generation-- - [Ravi] Yeah. >> Which I don't think was hub and spoke, it was more point to point, and I'm curious how you resolve that, in other words, how you'd tackle both together in a unified architecture? >> Yeah, that's an excellent question. In fact, one of the integrators' dilemma that I spoke about you've got the problem set where you've got the high-latency, high-volume, where you go to ETL tools. And then the low-latency, low-volume, you immediately go to the TIBCOs of the world and that's ESB, EAI sort of tool sets that you look to solve. So what we've done is we've thought about it hard. At one level we've just said, why can integration not be offered as a service? So that's step number one where the design experience is through the cloud, and then execution can just happen anywhere, behind your firewall or in the cloud, or in a big data system, so it caters to all of that. But then also, the data set itself is changing. You're seeing a lot of the document data model that are being offered by the Sass services. So the old ETL companies that were built before all of this social, mobile sort of stuff came around, it was all row and column oriented. So how do you deal with the more document oriented JSON sort of stuff? And we built that for, the platform to be able to handle that kind of data. Streaming is an interesting and important question. Pretty much everyone I spoke to last year were, streaming was a big-- let's do streaming, I want everything in real-time. But batch also has it's place. So you've got to have a system that does batch as well as real-time, or as near real-time as needed. So we solve for all of those problems. >> Okay, so Katharine, coming to you, each customer has a different, well, every consumer has a different, essentially, a stall base. To bring all the telemetry back to make sense out of what's working and what's not working, or how their environment is changing. How do you make sense out of all that, considering that it's not B to B, it's B to C so, I don't know how many customers you have, but it must be in the tens or hundreds. >> I'm sure I'm not allowed to say (laughs). >> No. But it's the distinctness of each customer that I gather makes the support challenge for you. >> Yeah, and part of that's exposing as much information to the different sources, and starting to automate the ways in which we do it. There's certainly a lot, we are very early on as a company. We've hit our year mark for public availability the end of last month so-- >> Jeff: Congratulations. >> Thank you, it's been a long year. But with that we learn more, constantly, and different people come to different views as different new questions come up. The special-snowflake aspect of each customer, there's a balance between how much actually is special and how much you can find patterns. And that's really where you get into much more interesting things on the statistics and machine learning side is how do you identify those patterns that you may not even know you're looking for. We are still beginning to understand our customers from a qualitative standpoint. It actually came up this week where I was doing an analysis and I was like, this population looks kind of weird, and with two clicks was able to send out a list over to our CX team. They had access to all the same systems because all of our data is connected and they could pull up the tickets based on, because through SnapLogic, we're joining all the data together. We use Looker as our BI tool, they were just able to start going into all the tickets and doing a deep dive, and that's being presented later this week as to like, hey, what is this population doing? >> So, for you to do this, that must mean you have at least some data that's common to every customer. For you to be able to use something like Looker, I imagine. If every customer was a distinct snowflake, it would be very hard to find patterns across them. >> Well I mean, look at how many people have iPhones, have MacBooks, you know, we are looking at a lot of aggregate-level data in terms of how things are behaving, and always the challenge of any data science project is creating those feature extractions, and so that's where the process we're going through as the analytics team is to start extracting those things and adding them to our central data source. That's one of the areas also where having very integrated analytics and ETL has been helpful as we're just feeding that information back in to everyone. So once we figure out, oh hey, this is how you differentiate small businesses from homes, because we do see a couple of small businesses using our product, that goes back into the data and now everyone's consuming it. Each of those common features, it's a slow process to create them, but it's also increases the value every time you add one to the central group. >> One last question-- >> It's an interesting way to think of the wifi service and the connected devices an integration challenge, as opposed to just an appliance that kind of works like an old POTS line, which it isn't, clearly at all. (all laugh) With 20 firmware updates a year (laughs). >> Yeah, there's another interesting point, that we were just having the discussion offline, it's that it's a start-up. They obviously don't have the resources or the app, but have a large IT department to set up these systems. So, as Katharine mentioned, one person team initially when they started, and to be able to integrate, who knows which system is going to be next. Maybe they experiment with one cloud service, it perhaps scales to their liking or not, and then they quickly change and go to another one. You cannot change the integration underneath that. You got to be able to adjust to that. So that flexibility, and the other thing is, what they've done with having their business become self-sufficient is another very fascinating thing. It's like, give them the power. Why should IT or that small team become the bottom line? Don't come to me, I'll just empower you with the right tool set and the patterns and then from there, you change and put in your business logic and be productive immediately. >> Let me drill down on that, 'cause my understanding, at least in the old world was that DTL was kind of brittle, and if you're constantly ... Part of actually, the genesis of Hadoop, certainly at Yahoo was, we're going to bring all the data we might ever possibly need into the repository so we don't have to keep re-writing the pipeline. And it sounds like you have the capability to evolve the pipeline rather quickly as you want to bring more data into this sort of central resource. Am I getting that about right? >> Yeah, it's a little bit of both. We do have a central, I think, down data's the fancy term for that, so we're bringing everything into S3, jumping it into those raw JSONs, you know, whatever nested format it comes into, so whatever makes it so that extraction is easy. Then there's also, as part of ETL, there's that last mile which is a lot of business logic, and that's where you run into teams starting to diverge very quickly if you don't have a way for them to give feedback into the process. We've really focused on empowering business users to be self-service, in terms of answering their own questions, and that's freed up our in list to add more value back into the greater group as well as answer harder questions, that both beget more questions, but also feeds back insights into that data source because they have access to their piece of that last business logic. By changing the way that one JSON field maps or combining two, they've suddenly created an entirely new variable that's accessible to everyone. So it's sort of last-leg business logic versus the full transport layer. We have a whole platform that's designed to transport everything and be much more robust to changes. >> Alright, so let me make sure I understand this, it sounds like the less-trained or more self-sufficient, they go after the central repository and then the more highly-trained and scarcer resource, they are responsible for owning one or more of the feeds and that they enrich that or make that more flexible and general-purpose so that those who are more self-sufficient can get at it in the center. >> Yeah, and also you're able to make use of the business. So we have sort of a hybrid model with our analysts that are really closely embedded into the teams, and so they have all that context that you need that if you're relying on, say, a central IT team, that you have to go back and forth of like, why are you doing this, what does this mean? They're able to do all that in logic. And then the goal of our platform team is really to focus on building technologies that complement what we have with SnapLogic or others that are accustomed to our data systems that enable that same sort of level of self-service for creating specific definitions, or are able to do it intelligently based on agreed upon patterns of extraction. >> George: Okay. >> Heavy science. Alright, well unfortunately we are out of time. I really appreciate the story, I love the site, I'll have to check out the boxes, because I know I have a bunch of dead spots in my house. (all laugh) But Ravi, I want to give you the last word, really about how is it working with a small start-up doing some cool, innovative stuff, but it's not your Adobes, it's not a lot of the huge enterprise clients that you have. What have you taken, why does that add value to SnapLogic to work with kind of a cool, fun, small start-up? >> Yeah, so the enterprise is always a retrofit job. You have to sort of go back to the SAPs and the Oracle databases and make sure that we are able to connect the legacy with a new cloud application. Whereas with a start-up, it's all new stuff. But their volumes are constantly changing, they probably have spikes, they have burst volumes, they're thinking about this differently, enabling everyone else, quickly changing and adopting newer technologies. So we have to be able to adjust to that agility along with them. So we're very excited as sort of partnering with them and going along with them on this journey. And as they start looking at other things, the machine learning and the AI and the IRT space, we're very excited to have that partnership and learn from them and evolve our platform as well. >> Clearly. You're smiling ear-to-ear, Katharine's excited, you're solving problems. So thanks again for taking a few minutes and good luck with your talk tomorrow. Alright, I'm Jeff Frick, he's George Gilbert, you're watching theCUBE from Big Data SV. We'll be back after this short break. Thanks for watching. (light techno music)

>> Announcer: Live from San Jose, California, it's The Cube, covering Big Data Silicon Valley 2017. >> Hey, welcome back everybody. Jeff Frick here with The Cube. We are at Big Data SV in San Jose at the Historic Pagoda Lounge, part of Big Data week which is associated with Strata + Hadoop. We've been coming here for eight years and we're excited to be back. The innovation and dynamicism of big data and evolutions now with machine learning and artificial intelligence, just continues to roll, and we're really excited to be here talking about one of the nasty aspects of this world, unfortunately, malware. So we're excited to have Darren Chinen. He's the senior director of data science and engineering from Malwarebytes. Darren, welcome. >> Darren: Thank you. >> So for folks that aren't familiar with the company, give us just a little bit of background on Malwarebytes. >> So Malwarebytes is basically a next-generation anti-virus software. We started off as humble roots with our founder at 14 years old getting infected with a piece of malware, and he reached out into the community and, at 14 years old, wrote his first, with the help of some people, wrote his first lines of code to remediate a couple of pieces of malware. It grew from there and I think by the ripe old age of 18, founded the company. And he's now I want to say 26 or 27 and we're doing quite well. >> It was interesting, before we went live you were talking about his philosophy and how important that is to the company and now has turned into really a strategic asset, that no one should have to suffer from malware, and he decided to really offer a solution for free to help people rid themselves of this bad software. >> Darren: That's right. Yeah, so Malwarebytes was founded under the principle that Marcin believes that everyone has the right to a malware-free existence and so we've always offered a free version Malwarebytes that will help you to remediate if your machine does get infected with a piece of malware. And that's actually still going to this day. >> And that's now given you the ability to have a significant amount of inpoint data, transactional data, trend data, that now you can bake back into the solution. >> Darren: That's right. It's turned into a strategic advantage for the company, it's not something I don't think that we could have planned at 18 years old when he was doing this. But we've instrumented it so that we can get some anonymous-level telemetry and we can understand how malware proliferates. For many, many years we've been positioned as a second-opinion scanner and so we're able to see a lot of things, some trends happening in there and we can actually now see that in real time. >> So, starting out as a second-position scanner, you're basically looking at, you're finding what others have missed. And how can you, what do you have to do to become the first line of defense? >> Well, with our new product Malwarebytes 3.0, I think some of that landscape is changing. We have a very complete and layered offering. I'm not the product manager, so I don't think, as the data science guy, I don't know that I'm qualified to give you the ins and outs, but I think some of that is changing as we have, we've combined a lot of products and we have a much more complete sweep of layered protection built into the product. >> And so, maybe tell us, without giving away all the secret sauce, what sort of platform technologies did you use that enabled you to scale to these hundreds of millions of in points, and then to be fast enough at identifying things that were trending that are bad that you had to prioritize? >> Right, so traditionally, I think AV companies, they have these honeypots, right, where they go and the collect a piece of virus or a piece of malware, and they'll take the MD5 hash of that and then they'll basically insert that into a definition's database. And that's a very exact way to do it. The problem is is that there's so much malware or viruses out there in the wild, it's impossible to get all of them. I think one of the things that we did was we set up telemetry and we have a phenomenal research team where we're able to actually have our team catch entire families of malware, and that's really the secret sauce to Malwarebytes. There's several other levels but that's where we're helping out in the immediate term. What we do is we have, internally, we sort of jokingly call it a Lambda Two architecture. We had considered Lambda long ago, long ago and I say about a year ago when we first started this journey. But there's, Lambda is riddled with, as you know, a number of issues. If you've ever talked to Jay Kreps from Confluent, he has a lot of opinions on that, right? And one of the key problems with that is, that if you do a traditional Lambda, you have to implement your code in two places, it's very difficult, things get out of sync, you have to have replay frameworks. And these are some of the challenges with Lambda. So we do processing in a number of areas. The first thing that we did was we implemented Kafka to handle all of the streaming data. We use Kafka streams to do inline stateless transformations and then we also use Kafka Connect. And we write all of our data both into HBase, we use that, we may swap that out later for something like Redis, and that would be a thin speed layer. And then we also move the data into S3 and we use some ephemeral clusters to do very large-scale batch processing, and that really provides our data lab. >> When you call that Lambda Two, is that because you're still working essentially on two different infrastructures, so your code isn't quite the same? You still have to check the results on either on either fork. >> That's right, yeah, we didn't feel like it was, we did evaluate doing everything in the stream. But there are certain operations that are difficult to do with purely streamed processing, and so we did need a little bit, we did need to have a thin, what we call real time indicators, a speed layer, to supplement what we were doing in the stream. And so that's the differentiating factor between a traditional Lambda architecture where you'd want to have everything in the stream and everything in batch, and the batch is really more of a truing mechanism as opposed to, our real time is really directional, so in the traditional sense, if you look at traditional business intelligence, you'd have KPIs that would allow you to gauge the health of your business. We have RTIs, Real Time Indicators, that allow us to gauge directionally, what is important to look at this day, this hour, this minute? >> This thing is burning up the charts, >> Exactly. >> Therefore it's priority one. >> That's right, you got it. >> Okay. And maybe tell us a little more, because everyone I'm sure is familiar with Kafka but the streams product from them is a little newer as is Kafka Connect, so it sounds like you've got, it's not just the transport, but you've got some basic analytics and you've got the ability to do the ETL because you've got Connect that comes from sources and destinations, sources and syncs. Tell us how you've used that. >> Well, the streams product is, it's quite different than something like Spark Streaming. It's not working off micro-batching, it's actually working off the stream. And the second thing is, it's not a separate cluster. It's just a library, effectively a .jar file, right? And so because it works natively with Kafka, it handles certain things there quite well. It handles back pressure and when you expand the cluster, it's pretty good with things like that. We've found it to be a fairly stable technology. It's just a library and we've worked very closely with Confluent to develop that. Whereas Kafka Connect is really something that we use to write out to S3. In fact, Confluent just released a new, an S3 connector direct. We were using Stream X, which was a wrapper on top of an HDFS connector and they rigged that up to write to S3 for us. >> So tell us, as you look out, what sorts of technologies do you see as enabling you to build a platform that's richer, and then how would that show up in the functionality consumers like we would see? >> Darren: With respect to the architecture? >> Yeah. >> Well one of the things that we had to do is we had to evaluate where we wanted to spend our time. We're a very small team, the entire data science and engineering team is less than I think 10 months old. So all of us got hired, we've started this platform, we've gone very, very fast. And we had to decide, how are we going to, a, get, we've made this big investment, how are we going to get value to our end customer quickly, so that they're not waiting around and you get the traditional big-data story where, we've spent all this money and now we're not getting anything out of it. And so we had to make some of those strategic decisions and because of the fact that the data was really truly big data in nature, there's just a huge amount of work that has to be done in these open-source technologies. They're not baked, it's not like going out to Oracle and giving them a purchase order and you install it and away you go. There's a tremendous amount of work, and so we've made some strategic decisions on what we're going to do in open-source and what we're going to do with a third-party vendor solution. And one of those solutions that we decided was workload automation. So I just did a talk on this about how Control-M from BMC was really the tool that we chose to handle a lot of the coordination, the sophisticated coordination, and the workload automation on the batch side, and we're about to implement that in a data-quality monitoring framework. And that's turned out to be an incredibly stable solution for us. It's allowed us to not spend time with open-source solutions that do the same things like Airflow, which may or may not work well, but there's really no support around that, and focus our efforts on what we believe to be the really, really hard problems to tackle in Kafka, Kafka Streams, Connect, et cetera. >> Is it fair to say that Kafka plus Kafka Connect solves many of the old ETL problems or do you still need some sort of orchestration tool on top of it to completely commoditize, essentially moving and transforming data from OLTP or operational system to a decision support system? >> I guess the answer to that is, it depends on your use case. I think there's a lot of things that Kafka and the stream's job can solve for you, but I don't think that we're at the point where everything can be streaming. I think that's a ways off. There's legacy systems that really don't natively stream to you anyway, and there's just certain operations that are just more efficient to do in batch. And so that's why we've, I don't think batch for us is going away any time soon and that's one of the reasons why workload automation in the batch layer initially was so important and we've decided to extend that, actually, into building out a data-quality monitoring framework to put a collar around how accurate our data is on the real-time side. >> Cuz it's really horses for courses, it's not one or the other, it's application-specific, what's the best solution for that particular is. >> Yeah, I don't think that there's, if there was a one-size-fits-all it'd be a company, and there would be no need for architects, so I think that you have to look at your use case, your company, what kind of data, what style of data, what type of analysis do you need. Do you really actually need the data in real time and if you do put in all the work to get it in real time, are you going to be able to take action on it? And I think Malwarebytes was a great candidate. When it came in, I said, "Well, it does look like we can justify "the need for real time data, and the effort "that goes into building out a real-time framework." >> Jeff: Right, right. And we always say, what is real time? In time to do something about it, (all chuckle) and if there's not time to do something about it, depending on how you define real time, really what difference does it make if you can't do anything about it that fast. So as you look out in the future with IoT, all these connected devices, this is a hugely increased attack surface as we just read our essay a few weeks back. How does that work into your planning? What do you guys think about the future where there's so many more connected devices out on the edge and various degrees of intelligence and opportunities to hi-jack, if you will? >> Yeah, I think, I don't think I'm qualified to speak about the Malwarebytes product roadmap as far as IoT goes. >> But more philosophically, from a professional point of view, cuz every coin has two sides, there's a lot of good stuff coming from IoT and connected devices, but as we keep hearing over and over, just this massive attack surface expansion. >> Well I think, for us, the key is we're small and we're not operating, like I came from Apple where we operated on a budget of infinity, so we're not-- >> Have to build the infinity or the address infinity (Darren laughs) with an actual budget. >> We're small and we have to make sure that whatever we do creates value. And so what I'm seeing in the future is, as we get more into the IoT space and logs begin to proliferate and data just exponentiates in size, it's really how do we do the same thing and how are we going to manage that in terms of cost? Generally, big data is very low in information density. It's not like transactional systems where you get the data, it's effectively an Excel spreadsheet and you can go run some pivot tables and filters and away you go. I think big data in general requires a tremendous amount of massaging to get to the point where a data scientist or an analyst can actually extract some insight and some value. And the question is, how do you massage that data in a way that's going to be cost-effective as IoT expands and proliferates? So that's the question that we're dealing with. We're, at this point, all in with cloud technologies, we're leveraging quite a few of Amazon services, server-less technologies as well. We just are in the process of moving to the Athena, to Athena, as just an on-demand query service. And we use a lot of ephemeral clusters as well, and that allows us to actually run all of our ETL in about two hours. And so these are some of the things that we're doing to prepare for this explosion of data and making sure that we're in a position where we're not spending a dollar to gain a penny if that makes sense. >> That's his business. Well, he makes fun of that business model. >> I think you could do it, you want to drive revenue to sell dollars for 90 cents. >> That's the dot com model, I was there. >> Exactly, and make it up in volume. All right, Darren Chenin, thanks for taking a few minutes out of your day and giving us the story on Malwarebytes, sounds pretty exciting and a great opportunity. >> Thanks, I enjoyed it. >> Absolutely, he's Darren, he's George, I'm Jeff, you're watching The Cube. We're at Big Data SV at the Historic Pagoda Lounge. Thanks for watching, we'll be right back after this short break. (upbeat techno music)

>> Announcer: Big Data Silicon Valley 2017. >> Hey, welcome back, everybody, Jeff Frick here with The Cube. We are live at the historic Pagoda Lounge in San Jose for Big Data SV, which is associated with Strathead Dupe World, across the street, as well as Big Data week, so everything big data is happening in San Jose, we're happy to be here, love the new venue, if you're around, stop by, back of the Fairmount, Pagoda Lounge. We're excited to be joined in this next segment by, who's now become a regular, any time we're at a Big Data event, a Spark event, Holden always stops by. Holden Karau, she's the principal software engineer at IBM. Holden, great to see you. >> Thank you, it's wonderful to be back yet again. >> Absolutely, so the big data meme just keeps rolling, Google Cloud Next was last week, a lot of talk about AI and ML and of course you're very involved in Spark, so what are you excited about these days? What are you, I'm sure you've got a couple presentations going on across the street. >> Yeah, so my two presentations this week, oh wow, I should remember them. So the one that I'm doing today is with my co-worker Seth Hendrickson, also at IBM, and we're going to be focused on how to use structured streaming for machine learning. And sort of, I think that's really interesting, because streaming machine learning is something a lot of people seem to want to do but aren't yet doing in production, so it's always fun to talk to people before they've built their systems. And then tomorrow I'm going to be talking with Joey on how to debug Spark, which is something that I, you know, a lot of people ask questions about, but I tend to not talk about, because it tends to scare people away, and so I try to keep the happy going. >> Jeff: Bugs are never fun. >> No, no, never fun. >> Just picking up on that structured streaming and machine learning, so there's this issue of, as we move more and more towards the industrial internet of things, like having to process events as they come in, make a decision. How, there's a range of latency that's required. Where does structured streaming and ML fit today, and where might that go? >> So structured streaming for today, latency wise, is probably not something I would use for something like that right now. It's in the like sub second range. Which is nice, but it's not what you want for like live serving of decisions for your car, right? That's just not going to be feasible. But I think it certainly has the potential to get a lot faster. We've seen a lot of renewed interest in ML liblocal, which is really about making it so that we can take the models that we've trained in Spark and really push them out to the edge and sort of serve them in the edge, and apply our models on end devices. So I'm really excited about where that's going. To be fair, part of my excitement is someone else is doing that work, so I'm very excited that they're doing this work for me. >> Let me clarify on that, just to make sure I understand. So there's a lot of overhead in Spark, because it runs on a cluster, because you have an optimizer, because you have the high availability or the resilience, and so you're saying we can preserve the predict and maybe serve part and carve out all the other overhead for running in a very small environment. >> Right, yeah. So I think for a lot of these IOT devices and stuff like that it actually makes a lot more sense to do the predictions on the device itself, right. These models generally are megabytes in size, and we don't need a cluster to do predictions on these models, right. We really need the cluster to train them, but I think for a lot of cases, pushing the prediction out to the edge node is actually a pretty reasonable use case. And so I'm really excited that we've got some work going on there. >> Taking that one step further, we've talked to a bunch of people, both like at GE, and at their Minds and Machines show, and IBM's Genius of Things, where you want to be able to train the models up in the cloud where you're getting data from all the different devices and then push the retrained model out to the edge. Can that happen in Spark, or do we have to have something else orchestrating all that? >> So actually pushing the model out isn't something that I would do in Spark itself, I think that's better served by other tools. Spark is not really well suited to large amounts of internet traffic, right. But it's really well suited to the training, and I think with ML liblocal it'll essentially, we'll be able to provide both sides of it, and the copy part will be left up to whoever it is that's doing their work, right, because like if you're copying over a cell network you need to do something very different as if you're broadcasting over a terrestrial XM or something like that, you need to do something very different for satellite. >> If you're at the edge on a device, would you be actually running, like you were saying earlier, structured streaming, with the prediction? >> Right, I don't think you would use structured streaming per se on the edge device, but essentially there would be a lot of code share between structured streaming and the code that you'd be using on the edge device. And it's being vectored out now so that we can have this code sharing and Spark machine learning. And you would use structured streaming maybe on the training side, and then on the serving side you would use your custom local code. >> Okay, so tell us a little more about Spark ML today and how we can democratize machine learning, you know, for a bigger audience. >> Right, I think machine learning is great, but right now you really need a strong statistical background to really be able to apply it effectively. And we probably can't get rid of that for all problems, but I think for a lot of problems, doing things like hyperparameter tuning can actually give really powerful tools to just like regular engineering folks who, they're smart, but maybe they don't have a strong machine learning background. And Spark's ML pipelines make it really easy to sort of construct multiple stages, and then just be like, okay, I don't know what these parameters should be, I want you to do a search over what these different parameters could be for me, and it makes it really easy to do this as just a regular engineer with less of an ML background. >> Would that be like, just for those of us who are, who don't know what hyperparameter tuning is, that would be the knobs, the variables? >> Yeah, it's going to spin the knobs on like our regularization parameter on like our regression, and it can also spin some knobs on maybe the engram sizes that we're using on the inputs to something else, right. And it can compare how these knobs sort of interact with each other, because often you can tune one knob but you actually have six different knobs that you want to tune and you don't know, if you just explore each one individually, you're not going to find the best setting for them working together. >> So this would make it easier for, as you're saying, someone who's not a data scientist to set up a pipeline that lets you predict. >> I think so, very much. I think it does a lot of the, brings a lot of the benefits from sort of the SciPy world to the big data world. And SciPy is really wonderful about making machine learning really accessible, but it's just not ready for big data, and I think this does a good job of bringing these same concepts, if not the code, but the same concepts, to big data. >> The SciPy, if I understand, is it a notebook that would run essentially on one machine? >> SciPy can be put in a notebook environment, and generally it would run on, yeah, a single machine. >> And so to make that sit on Spark means that you could then run it on a cluster-- >> So this isn't actually taking SciPy and distributing it, this is just like stealing the good concepts from SciPy and making them available for big data people. Because SciPy's done a really good job of making a very intuitive machine learning interface. >> So just to put a fine sort of qualifier on one thing, if you're doing the internet of things and you have Spark at the edge and you're running the model there, it's the programming model, so structured streaming is one way of programming Spark, but if you don't have structured streaming at the edge, would you just be using the core batch Spark programming model? >> So at the edge you'd just be using, you wouldn't even be using batch, right, because you're trying to predict individual events, right, so you'd just be calling predict with every new event that you're getting in. And you might have a q mechanism of some type. But essentially if we had this batch, we would be adding additional latency, and I think at the edge we really, the reason we're moving the models to the edge is to avoid the latency. >> So just to be clear then, is the programming model, so it wouldn't be structured streaming, and we're taking out all the overhead that forced us to use batch with Spark. So the reason I'm trying to clarify is a lot of people had this question for a long time, which is are we going to have a different programming model at the edge from what we have at the center? >> Yeah, that's a great question. And I don't think the answer is finished yet, but I think the work is being done to try and make it look the same. Of course, you know, trying to make it look the same, this is Boosh, it's not like actually barking at us right now, even though she looks like a dog, she is, there will always be things which are a little bit different from the edge to your cluster, but I think Spark has done a really good job of making things look very similar on single node cases to multi node cases, and I think we can probably bring the same things to ML. >> Okay, so it's almost time, we're coming back, Spark took us from single machine to cluster, and now we have to essentially bring it back for an edge device that's really light weight. >> Yeah, I think at the end of the day, just from a latency point of view, that's what we have to do for serving. For some models, not for everyone. Like if you're building a website with a recommendation system, you don't need to serve that model like on the edge node, that's fine, but like if you've got a car device we can't depend on cell latency, right, you have to serve that in car. >> So what are some of the things, some of the other things that IBM is contributing to the ecosystem that you see having a big impact over the next couple years? >> So there's a lot of really exciting things coming out of IBM. And I'm obviously pretty biased. I spend a lot of time focused on Python support in Spark, and one of the most exciting things is coming from my co-worker Brian, I'm not going to say his last name in case I get it wrong, but Brian is amazing, and he's been working on integrating Arrow with Spark, and this can make it so that it's going to be a lot easier to sort of interoperate between JVM languages and Python and R, so I'm really optimistic about the sort of Python and R interfaces improving a lot in Spark and getting a lot faster as well. And we're also, in addition to the Arrow work, we've got some work around making it a lot easier for people in R and Python to get started. The R stuff is mostly actually the Microsoft people, thanks Felix, you're awesome. I don't actually know which camera I should have done that to but that's okay. >> I think you got it! >> But Felix is amazing, and the other people working on R are too. But I think we've both been pursuing sort of making it so that people who are in the R or Python spaces can just use like Pit Install, Conda Install, or whatever tool it is they're used to working with, to just bring Spark into their machine really easily, just like they would sort of any other software package that they're using. Because right now, for someone getting started in Spark, if you're in the Java space it's pretty easy, but if you're in R or Python you have to do sort of a lot of weird setup work, and it's worth it, but like if we can get rid of that friction, I think we can get a lot more people in these communities using Spark. >> Let me see, just as a scenario, the R server is getting fairly well integrated into Sequel server, so would it be, would you be able to use R as the language with a Spark execution engine to somehow integrate it into Sequel server as an execution engine for doing the machine learning and predicting? >> You definitely, well I shouldn't say definitely, you probably could do that. I don't necessarily know if that's a good idea, but that's the kind of stuff that this would enable, right, it'll make it so that people that are making tools in R or Python can just use Spark as another library, right, and it doesn't have to be this really special setup. It can just be this library and they point out the cluster and they can do whatever work it wants to do. That being said, the Sequel server R integration, if you find yourself using that to do like distributed computing, you should probably take a step back and like rethink what you're doing. >> George: Because it's not really scale out. >> It's not really set up for that. And you might be better off doing this with like, connecting your Spark cluster to your Sequel server instance using like JDBC or a special driver and doing it that way, but you definitely could do it in another inverted sort of way. >> So last question from me, if you look out a couple years, how will we make machine learning accessible to a bigger and bigger audience? And I know you touched on the tuning of the knobs, hyperparameter tuning, what will it look like ultimately? >> I think ML pipelines are probably what things are going to end up looking like. But I think the other part that we'll sort of see is we'll see a lot more examples of how to work with certain kinds of data, because right now, like, I know what I need to do when I'm ingesting some textural data, but I know that because I spent like a week trying to figure out what the hell I was doing once, right. And I didn't bother to write it down. And it looks like no one else bothered to write it down. So really I think we'll see a lot of tools that look very similar to the tools we have today, they'll have more options and they'll be a bit easier to use, but I think the main thing that we're really lacking right now is good documentation and sort of good books and just good resources for people to figure out how to use these tools. Now of course, I mean, I'm biased, because I work on these tools, so I'm like, yeah, they're pretty great. So there might be other people who are like, Holden, no, you're wrong, we need to rethink everything. But I think this is, we can go very far with the pipeline concept. >> And then that's good, right? The democratization of these things opens it up to more people, you get more creative people solving more different problems, that makes the whole thing go. >> You can like install Spark easily, you can, you know, set up an ML pipeline, you can train your model, you can start doing predictions, you can, people that haven't been able to do machine learning at scale can get started super easily, and build a recommendation system for their small little online shop and be like, hey, you bought this, you might also want to buy Boosh, he's really cute, but you can't have this one. No no no, not this one. >> Such a tease! >> Holden: I'm sorry, I'm sorry. >> Well Holden, that will, we'll say goodbye for now, I'm sure we will see you in June in San Francisco at the Spark Summit, and look forward to the update. >> Holden: I look forward to chatting with you then. >> Absolutely, and break a leg this afternoon at your presentation. >> Holden: Thank you. >> She's Holden Karau, I'm Jeff Frick, he's George Gilbert, you're watching The Cube, we're at Big Data SV, thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> Hey, welcome back everybody. Jeff Rick here with the Cube. We are live in downtown San Jose at the historic Pagoda Lounge, part of Big Data SV, which is part of Strata + Hadoop Conference, which is part of Big Data Week because everything big data is pretty much in San Jose this week. So we're excited to be here. We're here with George Gilbert, our big data analyst from Wikibon, and a great guest, Gaurav Dhillon, Chairman and CEO of SnapLogic. Gaurav, great to see you. >> Pleasure to be here, Jeff. Thank you for having me. George, good to see you. >> You guys have been very busy since we last saw you about a year ago. >> We have. We had a pretty epic year. >> Yeah, give us an update, funding, and customers, and you guys have a little momentum. >> It's a good thing. It's a good thing, you know. A friend and a real mentor to us, Dan Wormenhoven, the Founder and CEO of NetApp for a very long time, longtime CEO of NetApp, he always likes to joke that growth cures all startup problems. And you know what, that's the truth. >> Jeff: Yes. >> So we had a scorching year, you know. 2016 was a year of continuing to strengthen our products, getting a bunch more customers. We got about 300 new customers. >> Jeff: 300 new customers? >> Yes, and as you know, we don't sell to small business. We sell to the enterprise. >> Right, right. >> So, this is the who's who of pharmaceuticals, continued strength in high-tech, continued strength in retail. You know, all the way from Subway Sandwich to folks like AstraZeneca and Amgen and Bristol-Myers Squibb. >> Right. >> So, some phenomenal growth for the company. But, you know, we look at it very simply. We want to double our company every year. We want to do it in a responsible way. In other words, we are growing our business in such a way that we can sail over to cash flow break-even at anytime. So responsibly doubling your business is a wonderful thing. >> So when you look at it, obviously, you guys are executing, you've got good products, people are buying. But what are some of the macro-trends that you're seeing talking to all these customers that are really helping push you guys along? >> Right, right. So what we see is, and it used to be the majority of our business. It's now getting to be 50/50. But still I would say, historically, the primary driver for 2016 of our business was a digital transformation at a boardroom level causing a rethinking of the appscape and people bringing in cloud applications like Workday. So, one of the big drivers of our growth is helping fit Workday into the new fabric in many enterprises: Vassar College, into Capital One, into finance and various other sectors. Where people bring in Workday, they want to make that work with what they have and what they're going to buy in the future, whether it's more applications or new types of data strategies. And that is the primary driver for growth. In the past, it was probably a secondary driver, this new world of data warehousing. We like to think of it as a post-modern era in the use of data and the use of analytics. But this year, it's trending to be probably 50/50 between apps and data. And that is a shift towards people deploying in the same way that they moved from on-premise apps to SAS apps, a move towards looking at data platforms in the cloud for all the benefits of racking and stacking and having the capability rather than being in the air-conditioning, HVAC, and power consumption business. And that has been phenomenal. We've seen great growth with some of the work from Microsoft Azure with the Insights products, AWS's Redshift is a fantastic growth area for us. And these sorts of technologies, we think are going to be of significant impact to the everyday, the work clothing types of analytics. Maybe the more exotic stuff will stay on prem, but a lot of the regular business-like stuff, you know, stuff in suits and ties is moving into the cloud at a rapid pace. >> And we just came off the Google Next show last week. And Google really is helping continue to push kind of ML and AI out front. And so, maybe it's not the blue suit analytics. >> Gaurav: Indeed, yes. >> But it does drive expectations. And you know, the expectations of what we can get, what we should get, what we should be moving towards is rapidly changing. >> Rapidly changing, for example, we saw at The New York Times, which as many of Google's flagship enterprise customers are media-related. >> Jeff: Right. >> No accident, they're so proficient themselves being in the consumer internet space. So as we encountered in places like The New York Times, is there's a shift away from a legacy data warehouse, which people like me and others in the last century, back in my time in Informatica, might have sold them towards a cloud-first strategy of using, in their case, Google products, Bigtable, et cetera. And also, they're doing that because they aspirationally want to get at consumer prices without having to have a campus and the expense of Google's big brain. They want to benefit from some of those things like TensorFlow, et cetera, through the machine learning and other developer capabilities that are now coming along with that in the cloud. And by the way, Microsoft has amazing machine learning capability in its Azure for Microsoft Research as well. >> So Gaurav, it's interesting to hear sort of the two drivers. We know PeopleSoft took off starting with HR first and then would add on financials and stumble a little bit with manufacturing. So, when someone wants to bring in Workday, is it purely an efficiency value prop? And then, how are you helping them tie into the existing fabric of applications? >> Look, I think you have to ask Dave or Aneel or ask them together more about that dynamic. What I know, as a friend of the firm and as somebody we collaborate with, and, you know, this is an interesting statistic, 20 percent of Workday's financial customers are using SnapLogic, 20 percent. Now, it's a nascent business for them and you and I were around in the last century of ERP. We saw the evolution of functional winners. Some made it into suites and some didn't. Siebel never did. PeopleSoft at least made a significant impact on a variety of other things. Yes, there was Bonn and other things that prevented their domination of manufacturing and, of course, the small company in Walldorf did a very good job on it too. But that said, what we find is it's very typical, in a sense, how people using TIBCO and Informatica in the last century are looking at SnapLogic. And it's no accident because we saw Workdays go to market motion, and in a sense, are following, trying to do the same thing Dave and Aneel have done, but we're trying to do the same thing, being a bunch of ex-Informatica guys. So here's what it is. When you look at your legacy installation, and you want to modernize it, what are your choices? You can do a big old upgrade because it's on-premise software. Or you can say, "You know what? "For 20% more, I could just get the new thing." And guess what? A lot of people want to get the new thing. And that's what you're going to see all the time. And that's what's happening with companies like SnapLogic and Workday is, you know, someone. Right here locally, Adobe, it's an icon in technology and certainly in San Jose that logo is very big. A few years ago, they decided to make the jump from legacy middleware, TIBCO, Informatica, WebMethods, and they've replaced everything globally with SnapLogic. So in that same way, instead of trying to upgrade this version and that version and what about what we do in Japan, what do we do in Sweden, why don't you just find a platform as a service that lets you elevate your success and go towards a better product, more of a self-service better UX, millennial-friendly type of product? So that's what's happening out there. >> But even that three-letter company from Walldorf was on-stage last week. You can now get SAP on the Google Cloud Platform which I thought was pretty amazing. And the other piece I just love but there's still a few doubters out there on the SAS platform is now there's a really visual representation. >> Gaurav: There is. >> Of the dominance of that style going up in downtown San Francisco. It's 60 stories high, and it's taken over the landscape. So if there's ever any a doubt of enterprise adaptation of SAS, and if anything, I would wonder if kind of the proliferation of apps now within the SAS environment inside the enterprise starts to become a problem in and of its own self. Because now you have so many different apps that you're working on and working. God help if the internet goes down, right? >> It's true, and you know, and how do you make e pluribus unim, out of many one, right? So it's hilarious. It is almost at proliferation at this point. You know, our CFO tapped me the other day. He said, "Hey, you've got to check this out." "They're using a SAS application which they got "from a law firm to track stock options "inside the company." I'm like, "Wow, that is a job title and a vertical." So only high growth private venture backed companies need this, and typically it's high tech. And you have very capable SAS, even in the small grid squares in the enterprise. >> Jeff: Right, right. >> So, a sign, and I think that's probably another way to think about the work that we do at SnapLogic and others. >> Jeff: Right, right. >> Other people in the marketplace like us. What we do essentially is we give you the ERP of one. Because if you could choose things that make sense for you and they could work together in a very good way to give you very good fabric for your purposes, you've essentially bought a bespoke suit at rack prices. Right? Without that nine times multiplier of the last century of having to have just consultants without end, darkened the sky with consultants to make that happen. You know? So that, yes, SAS proliferation is happening. That is the opportunity, also the problem. For us, it's an opportunity where that glass is half-full we come in with SnapLogic and knit it together for you to give you fabric back. And people love that because the businesses can buy what they want, and the enterprise gets a comprehensive solution. >> Jeff: Right, right. >> Well, at the risk of taking a very short tangent, that comment about darkening the skies, if I recall, was the battle of the Persians threatening the 300 Greeks at the battle of Thermopylae. >> Gaurav: Yes. >> And they said, "We'll darken the skies with our arrows." And so the Greek. >> Gaurav: Come and get 'em. >> No, no. >> The famous line was, he said, "Give us your weapons." And the guy says, "Come and get 'em." (laughs) >> We got to that point, the Greek general says, "Well, we'll fight in the shade." (all laughing) But I wanted to ask you. >> This is the movie 300 as well, right? >> Yes. >> The famous line is, "Give us your weapons." He said, "Come and get 'em." (all laughing) >> But I'm thinking also of the use case where a customer brings in Workday and you help essentially instrument it so it can be a good citizen. So what does that make, or connect it so it can be a good citizen. How much easier does that mean or does that make fitting in other SAS apps or any other app into the fabric, application fabric? >> Right, right. Look, George. As you and I know, we both had some wonderful runs in the last century, and here we are doing version 2.0 in many ways, again, very similar to the Workday management. The enterprise is hip to the fact that there is a Switzerland nature to making things work together. So they want amazing products like Workday. They want amazing products like the SAP Cloud Suite, now with Concur, SuccessFactors in there. Some very cool things happening in the analytics world which you'll see at Sapphire and so on. So some very, very capable products coming from, I mean, Oracle's bought 80 SAS companies or 87 SAS companies. And so, what you're seeing is the enterprise understands that there's going to be red versus blue and a couple other stripes and colors and that they want their businesspeople to buy whatever works for them. But they want to make them work together. All right? So there is a natural sort of geographic or structural nature to this business where there is a need for Switzerland and there is a need for amazing technology, some of which can only come from large companies with big balance sheets and vertical understanding and a legacy of success. But if a customer like an AstraZeneca where you have a CIO like Dave Smoley who transformed Flextronics, is now doing the same thing at AstraZeneca bringing cloud apps, is able to use companies like SnapLogic and then deploy Workday appropriately, SAP appropriately, have his own custom development, some domestic, some overseas, all over the world, then you've got the ability again to get something very custom, and you can do that at a fraction of the cost of overconsulting or darkening the skies in the way that things were done in the last century. >> So, then tell us about maybe the convergence of the new age data warehousing, the data science pipeline, and then this bespoke collection of applications, not bespoke the way Oracle tried it 20 years ago where you had to upgrade every app tied into every other app on prem, but perhaps the integration, more from many to one because they're in the cloud. There's only one version of each. How do you tie those two worlds together? >> You know, it's like that old bromide, "Know when to hold 'em. "Know when to fold them." There is a tendency when programming becomes more approachable, you have more millennials who are able to pick up technology in a way. I mean, it's astounding what my children can do. So what you want to do is as a enterprise, you want to very carefully build those things that you want to build, make sure you don't overbuild. Or, say, if you have a development capability, then every problem looks like a development nail and you have a hammer called development. "Let's hire more Java programmers." That's not the answer. Conversely, you don't want to lose sight of the fact that to really be successful in this millennium, you have to have a core competence around technology. So you want to carefully assemble and build your capability. Now, nobody should ever outsource management. That's a bad idea. (chuckles) But what you want to do is you want to think about those things that you want to buy as a package. Is that a core competence? So, there are excellent products for finance, for human capital management, for travel expense management. Coupa just announced today their for managing your spend. Some of the work at Ariba, now the Ariba Cloud at SAP, are excellent products to help you do certain job titles really well. So you really shouldn't be building those things. But what you should be doing is doing the right element of build and buy. So now, what does that mean for the world of analytics? In my view, people building data platforms or using a lot of open source and a lot of DevOps labor and virtualization engineering and all that stuff may be less valuable over time because where the puck is going is where a lot of people should skate to is there is a nature of developing certain machine language and certain kind of AI capabilities that I think are going to be transformational for almost every industry. It is hard to imagine anything in a more mechanized back office, moving paper, manufacturing, that cannot go through a quantum of improvement through AI. There are obviously moral and certain humanity dystopia issues around that to be dealt with. But what people should be doing is I think building out the AI capabilities because those are very custom to that business. Those have to do with the business's core competence, its milieu of markets and competitors. But there should be, in a sense, stroking a purchase order in the direction of a SAS provider, a cloud data provider like Microsoft Azure or Redshift, and shrinking down their lift-and-shift bill and their data center bill by doing that. >> It's fascinating how long it took enterprises to figure out that. Just like they've been leveraging ADP for God knows how many years, you know, there's a lot of other SAS applications you can use to do your non-differentiated heavy lifting, but they're clearly all in now. So Gaurav, we're running low on time. I just want to say, when we get you here next year, what's top of your plate? What's top of priorities for 2017? Cause obviously you guys are knocking down things left and right. >> Thank you, Jeff. Look, priority for us is growth. We're a growth company. We grow responsibly. We've seen a return to quality on the part of investors, on the part of public and private investors. And you know, you'll see us continue to sort of go at that growth opportunity in a manner consistent with our core values of building product with incredible success. 99% of our customers are new to our products last quarter. >> Jeff: Ninety-nine percent? >> Yes sir. >> That says it all. >> And in the world of enterprise software where there's a lot of snake oil, I'm proud to say that we are building new product with old-fashioned values, and that's what you see from us. >> Well 99% customer retention, you can't beat that. >> Gaurav: Hard to beat! There's no way but down from there, right? (laughing) >> Exactly. Alright Gaurav, well, thanks. >> Pleasure. >> For taking a few minutes out of your busy day. >> Thank you, Jeff. >> And I really appreciate the time. >> Thank you, Jeff, thank you, George. >> Alright, he's George Gilbert. I'm Jeff Rick. You're watching the Cube from the historic Pagoda Lounge in downtown San Jose. Thanks for watching.

>> Narrator: Live from San Jose, California it's the Cube, covering Big Data Silicon Valley 2017. (upbeat music) >> Big Data SV 2016, day two of our wall to wall coverage of Strata Hadoob Conference, Big Data SV, really what we call Big Data Week because this is where all the action is going on down in San Jose. We're at the historic Pagoda Lounge in the back of the Faramount, come on by and say hello, we've got a really cool space and we're excited and never been in this space before, so we're excited to be here. So we got George Gilbert here from Wiki, we're really excited to have our next guest, he's Fred Rice, he's the chief architect at IBM Spark Technology Center in San Francisco. Fred, great to see you. >> Thank you, Jeff. >> So I remember when Rob Thomas, we went up and met with him in San Francisco when you guys first opened the Spark Technology Center a couple of years now. Give us an update on what's going on there, I know IBM's putting a lot of investment in this Spark Technology Center in the San Francisco office specifically. Give us kind of an update of what's going on. >> That's right, Jeff. Now we're in the new Watson West building in San Francisco on 505 Howard Street, colocated, we have about a 50 person development organization. Right next to us we have about 25 designers and on the same floor a lot of developers from Watson doing a lot of data science, from the weather underground, doing weather and data analysis, so it's a really exciting place to be, lots of interesting work in data science going on there. >> And it's really great to see how IBM is taking the core Watson, obviously enabled by Spark and other core open source technology and now applying it, we're seeing Watson for Health, Watson for Thomas Vehicles, Watson for Marketing, Watson for this, and really bringing that type of machine learning power to all the various verticals in which you guys play. >> Absolutely, that's been what Watson has been about from the very beginning, bringing the power of machine learning, the power of artificial intelligence to real world applications. >> Jeff: Excellent. >> So let's tie it back to the Spark community. Most folks understand how data bricks builds out the core or does most of the core work for, like, the sequel workload the streaming and machine learning and I guess graph is still immature. We were talking earlier about IBM's contributions in helping to build up the machine learning side. Help us understand what the data bricks core technology for machine learning is and how IBM is building beyond that. >> So the core technology for machine learning in Apache Spark comes out, actually, of the machine learning department at UC Berkeley as well as a lot of different memories from the community. Some of those community members also work for data bricks. We actually at the IBM Spark Technology Center have made a number of contributions to the core Apache Spark and the libraries, for example recent contributions in neural nets. In addition to that, we also work on a project called Apache System ML, which used to be proprietary IBM technology, but the IBM Spark Technology Center has turned System ML into Apache System ML, it's now an open Apache incubating project that's been moving forward out in the open. You can now download the latest release online and that provides a piece that we saw was missing from Spark and a lot of other similar environments and optimizer for machine learning algorithms. So in Spark, you have the catalyst optimizer for data analysis, data frames, sequel, you write your queries in terms of those high level APIs and catalyst figures out how to make them go fast. In System ML, we have an optimizer for high level languages like Spark and Python where you can write algorithms in terms of linear algebra, in terms of high level operations on matrices and vectors and have the optimizer take care of making those algorithms run in parallel, run in scale, taking account of the data characteristics. Does the data fit in memory, and if so, keep it in memory. Does the data not fit in memory? Stream it from desk. >> Okay, so there was a ton of stuff in there. >> Fred: Yep. >> And if I were to refer to that as so densely packed as to be a black hole, that might come across wrong, so I won't refer to that as a black hole. But let's unpack that, so the, and I meant that in a good way, like high bandwidth, you know. >> Fred: Thanks, George. >> Um, so the traditional Spark, the machine learning that comes with Spark's ML lib, one of it's distinguishing characteristics is that the models, the algorithms that are in there, have been built to run on a cluster. >> Fred: That's right. >> And very few have, very few others have built machine learning algorithms to run on a cluster, but as you were saying, you don't really have an optimizer for finding something where a couple of the algorithms would be fit optimally to solve a problem. Help us understand, then, how System ML solves a more general problem for, say, ensemble models and for scale out, I guess I'm, help us understand how System ML fits relative to Sparks ML lib and the more general problems it can solve. >> So, ML Live and a lot of other packages such as Sparking Water from H20, for example, provide you with a toolbox of algorithms and each of those algorithms has been hand tuned for a particular range of problem sizes and problem characteristics. This works great as long as the particular problem you're facing as a data scientist is a good match to that implementation that you have in your toolbox. What System ML provides is less like having a toolbox and more like having a machine shop. You can, you have a lot more flexibility, you have a lot more power, you can write down an algorithm as you would write it down if you were implementing it just to run on your laptop and then let the System ML optimizer take care of producing a parallel version of that algorithm that is customized to the characteristics of your cluster, customized to the characteristics of your data. >> So let me stop you right there, because I want to use an analogy that others might find easy to relate to for all the people who understand sequel and scale out sequel. So, the way you were describing it, it sounds like oh, if I were a sequel developer and I wanted to get at some data on my laptop, I would find it pretty easy to write the sequel to do that. Now, let's say I had a bunch of servers, each with it's own database, and I wanted to get data from each database. If I didn't have a scale out database, I would have to figure out physically how to go to each server in the cluster to get it. What I'm hearing for System ML is it will take that query that I might have written on my one server and it will transparently figure out how to scale that out, although in this case not queries, machine learning algorithms. >> The database analogy is very apt. Just like sequel and query optimization by allowing you to separate that logical description of what you're looking for from the physical description of how to get at it. Lets you have a parallel database with the exact same language as a single machine database. In System ML, because we have an optimizer that separates that logical description of the machine learning algorithm from the physical implementation, we can target a lot of parallel systems, we can also target a large server and the code, the code that implements the algorithm stays the same. >> Okay, now let's take that a step further. You refer to matrix math and I think linear algebra and a whole lot of other things that I never quite made it to since I was a humanities major but when we're talking about those things, my understanding is that those are primitives that Spark doesn't really implement so that if you wanted to do neural nets, which relies on some of those constructs for high performance, >> Fred: Yes. >> Then, um, that's not built into Spark. Can you get to that capability using System ML? >> Yes. System ML edits core, provides you with a library, provides you as a user with a library of machine, rather, linear algebra primitives, just like a language like r or a library like Mumpai gives you matrices and vectors and all of the operations you can do on top of those primitives. And just to be clear, linear algebra really is the language of machine learning. If you pick up a paper about an advanced machine learning algorithm, chances are the specification for what that algorithm does and how that algorithm works is going to be written in the paper literally in linear algebra and the implementation that was used in that paper is probably written in the language where linear algebra is built in, like r, like Mumpai. >> So it sounds to me like Spark has done the work of sort of the blocking and tackling of machine learning to run in parallel. And that's I mean, to be clear, since we haven't really talked about it, that's important when you're handling data at scale and you want to train, you know, models on very, very large data sets. But it sounds like when we want to go to some of the more advanced machine learning capabilities, the ones that today are making all the noise with, you know, speech to text, text to speech, natural language, understanding those neural network based capabilities are not built into the core Spark ML lib, that, would it be fair to say you could start getting at them through System ML? >> Yes, System ML is a much better way to do scalable linear algebra on top of Spark than the very limited linear algebra that's built into Spark. >> So alright, let's take the next step. Can System ML be grafted onto Spark in some way or would it have to be in an entirely new API that doesn't take, integrate with all the other Spark APIs? In a way, that has differentiated Spark, where each API is sort of accessible from every other. Can you tie System ML in or do the Spark guys have to build more primitives into their own sort of engine first? >> A lot of the work that we've done with the Spark Technology Center as part of bringing System ML into the Apache ecosystem has been to build a nice, tight integration with Apache Spark so you can pass Spark data frames directly into System ML you can get data frames back. Your System ML algorithm, once you've written it, in terms of one of System ML's main systematic languages it just plugs into Spark like all the algorithms that are built into Spark. >> Okay, so that's, that would keep Spark competitive with more advanced machine learning frameworks for a longer period of time, in other words, it wouldn't hit the wall the way if would if it encountered tensor flow from Google for Google's way of doing deep learning, Spark wouldn't hit the wall once it needed, like, a tensor flow as long as it had System ML so deeply integrated the way you're doing it. >> Right, with a system like System ML, you can quickly move into new domains of machine learning. So for example, this afternoon I'm going to give a talk with one of our machine learning developers, Mike Dusenberry, about our recent efforts to implement deep learning in System ML, like full scale, convolutional neural nets running on a cluster in parallel processing many gigabytes of images, and we implemented that with very little effort because we have this optimizer underneath that takes care of a lot of the details of how you get that data into the processing, how you get the data spread across the cluster, how you get the processing moved to the data or vice versa. All those decisions are taken care of in the optimizer, you just write down the linear algebra parts and let the system take care of it. That let us implement deep learning much more quickly than we would have if we had done it from scratch. >> So it's just this ongoing cadence of basically removing the infrastructure gut management from the data scientists and enabling them to concentrate really where their value is is on the algorithms themselves, so they don't have to worry about how many clusters it's running on, and that configuration kind of typical dev ops that we see on the regular development side, but now you're really bringing that into the machine learning space. >> That's right, Jeff. Personally, I find all the minutia of making a parallel algorithm worked really fascinating but a lot of people working in data science really see parallelism as a tool. They want to solve the data science problem and System ML lets you focus on solving the data science problem because the system takes care of the parallelism. >> You guys could go on in the weeds for probably three hours but we don't have enough coffee and we're going to set up a follow up time because you're both in San Francisco. But before we let you go, Fred, as you look forward into 2017, kind of the advances that you guys have done there at the IBM Spark Center in the city, what's kind of the next couple great hurdles that you're looking to cross, new challenges that are getting you up every morning that you're excited to come back a year from now and be able to say wow, these are the one or two things that we were able to take down in 2017? >> We're moving forward on several different fronts this year. On one front, we're helping to get the notebook experience with Spark notebooks consistent across the entire IBM product portfolio. We helped a lot with the rollout of notebooks on data science experience on z, for example, and we're working actively with the data science experience and with the Watson data platform. On the other hand, we're contributing to Spark 2.2. There are some exciting features, particularly in sequel that we're hoping to get into that release as well as some new improvements to ML Live. We're moving forward with Apache System ML, we just cut Version 0.13 of that. We're talking right now on the mailing list about getting System ML out of incubation, making it a full, top level project. And we're also continuing to help with the adoption of Apache Spark technology in the enterprise. Our latest focus has been on deep learning on Spark. >> Well, I think we found him! Smartest guy in the room. (laughter) Thanks for stopping by and good luck on your talk this afternoon. >> Thank you, Jeff. >> Absolutely. Alright, he's Fred Rice, he's George Gilbert, and I'm Jeff Rick, you're watching the Cube from Big Data SV, part of Big Data Week in San Jose, California. (upbeat music) (mellow music) >> Hi, I'm John Furrier, the cofounder of SiliconANGLE Media cohost of the Cube. I've been in the tech business since I was 19, first programming on mini computers.