(upbeat music) >> Hello everyone, welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of Cloud Native SecurityCon North America 2023. Obviously, CUBE's coverage with our CUBE Center Report. We're not there on the ground, but we have folks and our CUBE Alumni there. We have entrepreneurs there. Of course, we want to be there in person, but we're remote. We've got Ben Hirschberg, CTO and Co-Founder of Armo, a cloud native security startup, well positioned in this industry. He's there in Seattle. Ben, thank you for coming on and sharing what's going on with theCUBE. >> Yeah, it's great to be here, John. >> So we had written on you guys up on SiliconANGLE. Congratulations on your momentum and traction. But let's first get into what's going on there on the ground? What are some of the key trends? What's the most important story being told there? What is the vibe? What's the most important story right now? >> So I think, I would like to start here with the I think the most important thing was that I think the event is very successful. Usually, the Cloud Native Security Day usually was part of KubeCon in the previous years and now it became its own conference of its own and really kudos to all the organizers who brought this up in, actually in a short time. And it wasn't really clear how many people will turn up, but at the end, we see a really nice turn up and really great talks and keynotes around here. I think that one of the biggest trends, which haven't started like in this conference, but already we're talking for a while is supply chain. Supply chain is security. I think it's, right now, the biggest trend in the talks, in the keynotes. And I think that we start to see companies, big companies, who are adopting themselves into this direction. There is a clear industry need. There is a clear problem and I think that the cloud native security teams are coming up with tooling around it. I think for right now we see more tools than adoption, but the adoption is always following the tooling. And I think it already proves itself. So we have just a very interesting talk this morning about the OpenSSL vulnerability, which was I think around Halloween, which came out and everyone thought that it's going to be a critical issue for the whole cloud native and internet infrastructure and at the end it turned out to be a lesser problem, but the reason why I think it was understood that to be a lesser problem real soon was that because people started to use (indistinct) store software composition information in the environment so security teams could look into, look up in their systems okay, what, where they're using OpenSSL, which version they are using. It became really soon real clear that this version is not adopted by a wide array of software out there so the tech surface is relatively small and I think it already proved itself that the direction if everyone is talking about. >> Yeah, we agree, we're very bullish on this move from the Cloud Native Foundation CNCF that do the security conference. Amazon Web Services has re:Invent. That's their big show, but they also have re:Inforce, the security show, so clearly they work together. I like the decoupling, very cohesive. But you guys have Kubescape of Kubernetes security. Talk about the conversations that are there and that you're hearing around why there's different event what's different around KubeCon and CloudNativeCon than this Cloud Native SecurityCon. It's not called KubeSucSecCon, it's called Cloud Native SecurityCon. What's the difference? Are people confused? Is it clear? What's the difference between the two shows? What are you hearing? >> So I think that, you know, there is a good question. Okay, where is Cloud Native Computing Foundation came from? Obviously everyone knows that it was somewhat coupled with the adoption of Kubernetes. It was a clear understanding in the industry that there are different efforts where the industry needs to come together without looking be very vendor-specific and try to sort out a lot of issues in order to enable adoption and bring great value and I think that the main difference here between KubeCon and the Cloud Native Security Conference is really the focus, and not just on Kubernetes, but the whole ecosystem behind that. The way we are delivering software, the way we are monitoring software, and all where Kubernetes is only just, you know, maybe the biggest clog in the system, but, you know, just one of the others and it gives great overview of what you have in the whole ecosystem. >> Yeah, I think it's a good call. I would add that what I'm hearing too is that security is so critical to the business model of every company. It's so mainstream. The hackers have a great business model. They make money, their costs are lower than the revenue. So the business of hacking in breaches, ransomware all over the place is so successful that they're playing offense, everyone's playing defense, so it's about time we can get focus to really be faster and more nimble and agile on solving some of these security challenges in open source. So I think that to me is a great focus and so I give total props to the CNC. I call it the event operating system. You got the security group over here decoupled from the main kernel, but they work together. Good call and so this brings back up to some of the things that are going on so I have to ask you, as your startup as a CTO, you guys have the Kubescape platform, how do you guys fit into the landscape and what's different from your tools for Kubernetes environments versus what's out there? >> So I think that our journey is really interesting in the solution space because I think that our mode really tries to understand where security can meet the actual adoption because as you just said, somehow we have to sort out together how security is going to be automated and integrated in its best way. So Kubescape project started as a Kubernetes security posture tool. Just, you know, when people are really early in their adoption of Kubernetes systems, they want to understand whether the installation is is secure, whether the basic configurations are look okay, and giving them instant feedback on that, both in live systems and in the CICD, this is where Kubescape came from. We started as an open source project because we are big believers of open source, of the power of open source security, and I can, you know I think maybe this is my first interview when I can say that Kubescape was accepted to be a CNCF Sandbox project so Armo was actually donating the project to the CNCF, I think, which is a huge milestone and a great way to further the adoption of Kubernetes security and from now on we want to see where the users in Armo and Kubescape project want to see where the users are going, their Kubernetes security journey and help them to automatize, help them to to implement security more fast in the way the developers are using it working. >> Okay, if you don't mind, I want to just get clarification. What's the difference between the Armo platform and Kubescape because you have Kubescape Sandbox project and Armo platform. Could you talk about the differences and interaction? >> Sure, Kubescape is an open source project and Armo platform is actually a managed platform which runs Kubescape in the cloud for you because Kubescape is part, it has several parts. One part is, which is running inside the Kubernetes cluster in the CICD processes of the user, and there is another part which we call the backend where the results are stored and can be analyzed further. So Armo platform gives you managed way to run the backend, but I can tell you that backend is also, will be available within a month or two also for everyone to install on their premises as well, because again, we are an open source company and we are, we want to enable users, so the difference is that Armo platform is a managed platform behind Kubescape. >> How does Kubescape differ from closed proprietary sourced solutions? >> So I can tell you that there are closed proprietary solutions which are very good security solutions, but I think that the main difference, if I had to pick beyond the very specific technicalities is the worldview. The way we see that our user is not the CISO. Our user is not necessarily the security team. From our perspective, the user is the DevOps and the developers who are working on the Kubernetes cluster day to day and we want to enable them to improve their security. So actually our approach is more developer-friendly, if I would need to define it very shortly. >> What does this risk calculation score you guys have in Kubscape? That's come up and we cover that in our story. Can you explain to the folks how that fits in? Is it Kubescape is the platform and what's the benefit, what's the purpose? >> So the risk calculation is actually a score we are giving to clusters in order for the users to understand where they are standing in the general population, how they are faring against a perfect hardened cluster. It is based on the number of different tests we are making. And I don't want to go into, you know, the very specifics of the mathematical functions, but in general it takes into account how many functions are failing, security tests are failing inside your cluster. How many nodes you are having, how many workloads are having, and creating this number which enables you to understand where you are standing in the global, in the world. >> What's the customer value that you guys pitching? What's the pitch for the Armo platform? When you go and talk to a customer, are they like, "We need you." Do they come to you? Is it word of mouth? You guys have a strategy? What's the pitch? What's so appealing to the customers? Why are they enthusiastic about you guys? >> So John, I can tell you, maybe it's not so easy to to say the words, but I nearly 20 years in the industry and though I've been always around cyber and the defense industry and I can tell you that I never had this journey where before where I could say that the the customers are coming to us and not we are pitching to customers. Simply because people want to, this is very easy tool, very very easy to use, very understandable and it very helps the engineers to improve security posture. And they're coming to us and they're saying, "Well, awesome, okay, how we can like use it. Do you have a graphical interface?" And we are pointing them to the Armor platform and they are falling in love and coming to us even more and we can tell you that we have a big number of active users behind the platform itself. >> You know, one of the things that comes up every time at KubeCon and Cloud NativeCon when we're there, and we'll be in Amsterdam, so folks watching, you know, we'll see onsite, developer productivity is like the number one thing everyone talks about and security is so important. It's become by default a blocker or anchor or a drag on productivity. This is big, the things that you're mentioning, easy to use, engineering supporting it, developer adoption, you know we've always said on theCUBE, developers will be the de facto standards bodies by their choices 'cause developers make all the decisions. So if I can go faster and I can have security kind of programmed in, I'm not shifting left, it's just I'm just having security kind of in there. That's the dream state. Is that what you guys are trying to do here? Because that's the nirvana, everyone wants to do that. >> Yeah, I think your definition is like perfect because really we had like this, for a very long time we had this world where we decoupled security teams from developers and even for sometimes from engineering at all and I think for multiple reasons, we are more seeing a big convergence. Security teams are becoming part of the engineering and the engineering becoming part of the security and as you're saying, okay, the day-to-day world of developers are becoming very tangled up in the good way with security, so the think about it that today, one of my developers at Armo is creating a pull request. He's already, code is already scanned by security scanners for to test for different security problems. It's already, you know, before he already gets feedback on his first time where he's sharing his code and if there is an issue, he already can solve it and this is just solving issues much faster, much cheaper, and also you asked me about, you know, the wipe in the conference and we know no one can deny the current economic wipe we have and this also relates to security teams and security teams has to be much more efficient. And one of the things that everyone is talking, okay, we need more automation, we need more, better tooling and I think we are really fitting into this. >> Yeah, and I talked to venture capitalists yesterday and today, an angel investor. Best time for startup is right now and again, open source is driving a lot of value. Ben, it's been great to have you on and sharing with us what's going on on the ground there as well as talking about some of the traction you have. Just final question, how old's the company? How much funding do you have? Where you guys located? Put a plug in for the company. You guys looking to hire? Tell us about the company. Were you guys located? How much capital do you have? >> So, okay, the company's here for three years. We've passed a round last March with Tiger and Hyperwise capitals. We are located, most of the company's located today in Israel in Tel Aviv, but we have like great team also in Ukraine and also great guys are in Europe and right now also Craig Box joined us as an open source VP and he's like right now located in New Zealand, so we are a really global team, which I think it's really helps us to strengthen ourselves. >> Yeah, and I think this is the entrepreneurial equation for the future. It's really great to see that global. We heard that in Priyanka Sharma's keynote. It's a global culture, global community. >> Right. >> And so really, really props you guys. Congratulations on Armo and thanks for coming on theCUBE and sharing insights and expertise and also what's happening on the ground. Appreciate it, Ben, thanks for coming on. >> Thank you, John. >> Okay, cheers. Okay, this is CUB coverage here of the Cloud Native SecurityCon in North America 2023. I'm John Furrier for Lisa Martin, Dave Vellante. We're back with more of wrap up of the event after this short break. (gentle upbeat music)

>>Good afternoon, friends. My name is Savannah Peterson here in the Cube Studios live from Detroit, Michigan, where we're at Cuban and Cloud Native Foundation, Cloud Native Con all week. Our last interview of the day served me a real treat and one that I wasn't expecting. It turns out that I am in the presence of two caddies. It's a literal episode of Caddy Shack up here on Cube. John Furrier. I don't think the audience knows that you were a caddy. Tell us about your caddy days. >>I used to caddy when I was a kid at the local country club every weekend. This is amazing. Double loops every weekend. Make some bang, two bags on each shoulder. Caddying for the members where you're going. Now I'm >>On show. Just, just really impressive >>Now. Now I'm caddying for the cube where I caddy all this great content out to the audience. >>He's carrying the story of emerging brands and established companies on their cloud journey. I love it. John, well played. I don't wanna waste any more of this really wonderful individual's time, but since we now have a new trend of talking about everyone's Twitter handle here on the cube, this may be my favorite one of the day, if not Q4 so far. Drew, not reply. AKA Drew ne Drew Nielsen, excuse me, there is here with us from Teleport. Drew, thanks so much for being here. >>Oh, thanks for having me. It's great to be here. >>And so you were a caddy on a whole different level. Can you tell us >>About that? Yeah, so I was in university and I got tired after two years and didn't have a car in LA and met a pro golfer at a golf course and took two years off and traveled around caddying for him and tried to get 'em through Q School. >>This is, this is fantastic. So if you're in school and your parents are telling you to continue going to school, know that you can drop out and be a caddy and still be a very successful television personality. Like both of the gentlemen at some point. >>Well, I never said my parents like >>That decision, but we'll keep our day jobs. Yeah, exactly. And one of them is Cloud Native Security. The hottest topic here at the show. Yep. I want to get into it. You guys are doing some really cool things. Are we? We hear Zero Trust, you know, ransomware and we even, I even talked with the CEO of Dockets morning about container security issues. Sure. There's a lot going on. So you guys are in the middle of teleport. You guys have a unique solution. Tell us what you guys got going on. What do you guys do? What's the solution and what's the problem you solve? >>So Teleport is the first and only identity native infrastructure access solution in the market. So breaking that down, what that really means is identity native being the combination of secret list, getting rid of passwords, Pam Vaults, Key Vaults, Yeah. Passwords written down. Basically the number one source of breach. And 50 to 80% of breaches, depending on whose numbers you want to believe are how organizations get hacked. >>But it's not password 1 23 isn't protecting >>Cisco >>Right >>Now. Well, if you think about when you're securing infrastructure and the second component being zero trust, which assumes the network is completely insecure, right? But everything is validated. Resource to resource security is validated, You know, it assumes work from anywhere. It assumes the security comes back to that resource. And we take the combination of those two into identity, native access where we cryptographically ev, validate identity, but more importantly, we make an absolutely frictionless experience. So engineers can access infrastructure from anywhere at any time. >>I'm just flashing on my roommates, checking their little code, changing Bob login, you know, dongle essentially, and how frustrating that always was. I mean, talk about interrupting workflow was something that's obviously necessary, but >>Well, I mean, talk about frustration if I'm an engineer. Yeah, absolutely. You know, back in the day when you had these three tier monolithic applications, it was kind of simple. But now as you've got modern application development environments Yeah, multi-cloud, hybrid cloud, whatever marketing term around how you talk about this, expanding sort of disparate infrastructure. Engineers are sitting there going from system to system to machine to database to application. I mean, not even a conversation on Kubernetes yet. Yeah. And it's just, you know, every time you pull an engineer or a developer to go to a vault to pull something out, you're pulling them out for 10 minutes. Now, applications today have hundreds of systems, hundreds of microservices. I mean 30 of these a day and nine minutes, 270 minutes times 60. And they also >>Do the math. Well, there's not only that, there's also the breach from manual error. I forgot to change the password. What is that password? I left it open, I left it on >>Cognitive load. >>I mean, it's the manual piece. But even think about it, TR security has to be transparent and engineers are really smart people. And I've talked to a number of organizations who are like, yeah, we've tried to implement security solutions and they fail. Why? They're too disruptive. They're not transparent. And engineers will work their way around them. They'll write it down, they'll do a workaround, they'll backdoor it something. >>All right. So talk about how it works. But I, I mean, I'm getting the big picture here. I love this. Breaking down the silos, making engineers lives easier, more productive. Clearly the theme, everyone they want, they be gonna need. Whoever does that will win it all. How's it work? I mean, you deploying something, is it code, is it in line? It's, >>It's two binaries that you download and really it starts with the core being the identity native access proxy. Okay. So that proxy, I mean, if you look at like the zero trust principles, it all starts with a proxy. Everything connects into that proxy where all the access is gated, it's validated. And you know, from there we have an authorization engine. So we will be the single source of truth for all access across your entire infrastructure. So we bring machines, engineers, databases, applications, Kubernetes, Linux, Windows, we don't care. And we basically take that into a single architecture and single access platform that essentially secures your entire infrastructure. But more importantly, you can do audit. So for all of the organizations that are dealing with FedRAMP, pci, hipaa, we have a complete audit trail down to a YouTube style playback. >>Oh, interesting. We're we're California and ccpa. >>Oh, gdpr. >>Yeah, exactly. It, it, it's, it's a whole shebang. So I, I love, and John, maybe you've heard this term a lot more than I have, but identity native is relatively new to me as as a term. And I suspect you have a very distinct way of defining identity. How do you guys define identity internally? >>So identity is something that is cryptographically validated. It is something you have. So it's not enough. If you look at, you know, credentials today, everyone's like, Oh, I log into my computer, but that's my identity. No, it's not. Right. Those are attributes. Those are something that is secret for a period of time until you write it down. But I can't change my fingerprint. Right. And now I >>Was just >>Thinking of, well no, perfect case in point with touch ID on your meth there. Yeah. It's like when we deliver that cryptographically validated identity, we use these secure modules in like modern laptops or servers. Yeah. To store that identity so that even if you're sitting in front of your computer, you can't get to it. But more importantly, if somebody were to take that and try to be you and try to log in with your fingerprint, it's >>Not, I'm not gonna lie, I love the apple finger thing, you know, it's like, you know, space recognition, like it's really awesome. >>It save me a lot of time. I mean, even when you go through customs and they do the face scan now it actually knows who you are, which is pretty wild in the last time you wanna provide ones. But it just shifted over like maybe three months ago. Well, >>As long as no one chops your finger off like they do in the James Bond movies. >>I mean, we try and keep it a light and fluffy here on the queue, but you know, do a finger teams, we can talk about that >>Too. >>Gabby, I was thinking more minority report, >>But you >>Knows that's exactly what I, what I think of >>Hit that one outta bounds. So I gotta ask, because you said you're targeting engineers, not IT departments. What's, is that, because I in your mind it is now the engineers or what's the, is always the solution more >>Targeted? Well, if you really look at who's dealing with infrastructure on a day-to-day basis, those are DevOps individuals. Those are infrastructure teams, Those are site reliability engineering. And when it, they're the ones who are not only managing the infrastructure, but they're also dealing with the code on it and everything else. And for us, that is who is our primary customer and that's who's doing >>It. What's the biggest problem that you're solving in this use case? Because you guys are nailing it. What's the problem that your identity native solution solves? >>You know, right out of the backs we remove the number one source of breach. And that is taking passwords, secrets and, and keys off the board. That deals with most of the problem right there. But there are really two problems that organizations face. One is scaling. So as you scale, you get more secrets, you get more keys, you get all these things that is all increasing your attack vector in real time. Oh >>Yeah. Across teams locations. I can't even >>Take your pick. Yeah, it's across clouds, right? Any of it >>On-prem doesn't. >>Yeah. Any of it. We, and we allow you to scale, but do it securely and the security is transparent and your engineers will absolutely love it. What's the most important thing about this product Engineers. Absolutely. >>What are they saying? What are some of those examples? Anecdotally, pull boats out from engineering. >>You're too, we should have invent, we should have invented this ourselves. Or you know, we have run into a lot of customers who have tried to home brew this and they're like, you know, we spend an in nor not of hours on it >>And IT or they got legacy from like Microsoft or other solutions. >>Sure, yeah. Any, but a lot of 'em is just like, I wish I had done it myself. Or you know, this is what security should be. >>It makes so much sense and it gives that the team such a peace of mind. I mean, you never know when a breach is gonna come, especially >>It's peace of mind. But I think for engineers, a lot of times it deals with the security problem. Yeah. Takes it off the table so they can do their jobs. Yeah. With zero friction. Yeah. And you know, it's all about speed. It's all about velocity. You know, go fast, go fast, go fast. And that's what we enable >>Some of the benefits to them is they get to save time, focus more on, on task that they need to work on. >>Exactly. >>And get the >>Job done. And on top of it, they answer the audit and compliance mail every time it comes. >>Yeah. Why are people huge? Honestly, why are people doing this? Because, I mean, identity is just such an hard nut to crack. Everyone's got their silos, Vendors having clouds have 'em. Identity is the most fragmented thing on >>The planet. And it has been fragmented ever since my first RSA conference. >>I know. So will we ever get this do over? Is there a driver? Is there a market force? Is this the time? >>I think the move to modern applications and to multi-cloud is driving this because as those application stacks get more verticalized, you just, you cannot deal with the productivity >>Here. And of course the next big thing is super cloud and that's coming fast. Savannah, you know, You know that's Rocket. >>John is gonna be the thought leader and keyword leader of the word super cloud. >>Super Cloud is enabling super services as the cloud cast. Brian Gracely pointed out on his Sunday podcast of which if that happens, Super Cloud will enable super apps in a new architectural >>List. Please don't, and it'll be super, just don't. >>Okay. Right. So what are you guys up to next? What's the big hot spot for the company? What are you guys doing? What are you guys, What's the idea guys hiring? You put the plug in. >>You know, right now we are focused on delivering the best identity, native access platform that we can. And we will continue to support our customers that want to use Kubernetes, that want to use any different type of infrastructure. Whether that's Linux, Windows applications or databases. Wherever they are. >>Are, are your customers all of a similar DNA or are you >>No, they're all over the map. They range everything from tech companies to financial services to, you know, fractional property. >>You seem like someone everyone would need. >>Absolutely. >>And I'm not just saying that to be a really clean endorsement from the Cube, but >>If you were doing DevOps Yeah. And any type of forward-leaning shift, left engineering, you need us because we are basically making security as code a reality across your entire infrastructure. >>Love this. What about the team dna? Are you in a scale growth stage right now? What's going on? Absolutely. Sounds I was gonna say, but I feel like you would have >>To be. Yeah, we're doing, we're, we have a very positive outlook and you know, even though the economic time is what it is, we're doing very well meeting. >>How's the location? Where's the location of the headquarters now? With remote work is pretty much virtual. >>Probably. We're based in downtown Oakland, California. >>Woohoo. Bay area representing on this stage right now. >>Nice. Yeah, we have a beautiful office right in downtown Oakland and yeah, it's been great. Awesome. >>Love that. And are you hiring right now? I bet people might be. I feel like some of our cube watchers are here waiting to figure out their next big play. So love to hear that. Absolutely love to hear that. Besides Drew, not reply, if people want to join your team or say hello to you and tell you how brilliant you looked up here, or ask about your caddy days and maybe venture a guest to who that golfer may have been that you were CAD Inc. For, what are the best ways for them to get in touch with you? >>You can find me on LinkedIn. >>Great. Fantastic. John, anything else >>From you? Yeah, I mean, I just think security is paramount. This is just another example of where the innovation has to kind of break through without good identity, everything could cripple. Then you start getting into the silos and you can start getting into, you know, tracking it. You got error user errors, you got, you know, one of the biggest security risks. People just leave systems open, they don't even know it's there. So like, I mean this is just, just identity is the critical linchpin to, to solve for in security to me. And that's totally >>Agree. We even have a lot of customers who use us just to access basic cloud consoles. Yeah. >>So I was actually just gonna drive there a little bit because I think that, I'm curious, it feels like a solution for obviously complex systems and stacks, but given the utility and what sounds like an extreme ease of use, I would imagine people use this for day-to-day stuff within their, >>We have customers who use it to access their AWS consoles. We have customers who use it to access Grafana dashboards. You know, for, since we're sitting here at coupon accessing a Lens Rancher, all of the amazing DevOps tools that are out there. >>Well, I mean true. I mean, you think about all the reasons why people don't adopt this new federated approach or is because the IT guys did it and the world we're moving into, the developers are in charge. And so we're seeing the trend where developers are taking the DevOps and the data and the security teams are now starting to reset the guardrails. What's your >>Reaction to that? Well, you know, I would say that >>Over the top, >>Well I would say that you know, your DevOps teams and your infrastructure teams and your engineers, they are the new king makers. Yeah. Straight up. Full stop. >>You heard it first folks. >>And that's >>A headline right >>There. That is a headline. I mean, they are the new king makers and, but they are being forced to do it as securely as possible. And our job is really to make that as easy and as frictionless as possible. >>Awesome. >>And it sounds like you're absolutely nailing it. Drew, thank you so much for being on the show. Thanks for having today. This has been an absolute pleasure, John, as usual a joy. And thank all of you for tuning in to the Cube Live here at CU Con from Detroit, Michigan. We look forward to catching you for day two tomorrow.

(upbeat music) >> theCUBE presents KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 22, brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation. >> Valencia, Spain, a KubeCon, CloudNativeCon Europe 2022. I'm Keith Towns along with Paul Gillon, Senior Editor Enterprise Architecture for Silicon Angle. Welcome Paul. >> Thank you Keith, pleasure to work with you. >> We're going to have some amazing people this week. I think I saw stat this morning, 65% of the attendees, 7,500 folks. First time KubeCon attendees, is this your first conference? >> It is my first KubeCon and it is amazing to see how many people are here and to think of just a couple of years ago, three years ago, we were still talking about, what the Cloud was, what the Cloud was going to do and how we were going to integrate multiple Clouds. And now we have this whole new framework for computing that is just rifled out of nowhere. And as we can see by the number of people who are here this has become the dominant trend in Enterprise Architecture right now how to adopt Kubernetes and containers, build microservices based applications, and really get to that transparent Cloud that has been so elusive. >> It has been elusive. And we are seeing vendors from startups with just a few dozen people, to some of the traditional players we see in the enterprise space with 1000s of employees looking to capture kind of lightning in a bottle so to speak, this elusive concept of multicloud. >> And what we're seeing here is very typical of an early stage conference. I've seen many times over the years where the floor is really dominated by companies, frankly, I've never heard of that. The many of them are only two or three years old, you don't see the big dominant computing players with the presence here that these smaller companies have. That's very typical. We saw that in the PC age, we saw it in the early days of Unix and it's happening again. And what will happen over time is that a lot of these companies will be acquired, there'll be some consolidation. And the nature of this show will change, I think dramatically over the next couple or three years but there is an excitement and an energy in this auditorium today that is really a lot of fun and very reminiscent of other new technologies just as they requested. >> Well, speaking of new technologies, we have Dave Cole, CRO, Chief Revenue Officer. >> That's right. >> Chief Marketing Officer of Spectrum Cloud. Welcome to the show. >> Thank you. It's great to be here. >> So let's talk about this big ecosystem, Kubernetes. >> Yes. >> Solve problem? >> Well the dream is... Well, first of all applications are really the lifeblood of a company, whether it's our phone or whether it's a big company trying to connect with its customers about applications. And so the whole idea today is how do I build these applications to build that tight relationship with my customers? And how do I reinvent these applications rapidly in along comes containerization which helps you innovate more quickly? And certainly a dominant technology there is Kubernetes. And the question is, how do you get Kubernetes to help you build applications that can be born anywhere and live anywhere and take advantage of the places that it's running? Because everywhere has pluses and minuses. >> So you know what, the promise of Kubernetes from when I first read about it years ago is, runs on my laptop? >> Yeah. >> I can push it to any Cloud, any platforms. >> That's right, that's right. >> Where's the gap? Where are we in that phase? Like talk to me about scale? Is it that simple? >> Well, that is actually the problem is that today, while the technology is the dominant containerization technology in orchestration technology, it really still takes a power user, it really hasn't been very approachable to the masses. And so was these very expensive highly skilled resources that sit in a dark corner that have focused on Kubernetes, but that now is trying to evolve to make it more accessible to the masses. It's not about sort of hand wiring together, what is a typical 20 layer stack, to really manage Kubernetes and then have your engineers manually can reconfigure it and make sure everything works together. Now it's about how do I create these stacks, make it easy to deploy and manage at scale? So we've gone from sort of DIY Developer Centric to all right, now how do I manage this at scale? >> Now this is a point that is important, I think is often overlooked. This is not just about Kubernetes. This is about a whole stack of Cloud Native Technologies. And you who is going to integrate that all that stuff, piece that stuff together? Obviously, you have a role in that. But in the enterprise, what is the awareness level of how complex this stack is and how difficult it is to assemble? >> We see a recognition of that we've had developers working on Kubernetes and applications, but now when we say, how do we weave it into our production environments? How do we ensure things like scalability and governance? How do we have this sort of interesting mix of innovation, flexibility, but with control? And that's sort of an interesting combination where you want developers to be able to run fast and use the latest tools, but you need to create these guardrails to deploy it at scale. >> So where do the developers fit in that operation stack then? Is Kubernetes an AIOps or an ops task or is it sort of a shared task across the development spectrum? >> Well, I think there's a desire to allow application developers to just focus on the application and have a Kubernetes related technology that ensures that all of the infrastructure and related application services are just there to support them. And because the typical stack from the operating system to the application can be up to 20 different layers, components, you just want all those components to work together, you don't want application developers to worry about those things. And the latest technologies like Spectra Cloud there's others are making that easy application engineers focus on their apps, all of the infrastructure and the services are taken care of. And those apps can then live natively on any environment. >> So help paint this picture for us. I get AKS, EKS, Anthos, all of these distributions OpenShift, the Tanzu, where's Spectra Cloud helping me to kind of cobble together all these different distros, I thought distro was the thing just like Linux has different distros, Randy said different distros. >> That actually is the irony, is that sort of the age of debating the distros largely is over. There are a lot of distros and if you look at them there are largely shades of gray in being different from each other. But the Kubernetes distribution is just one element of like 20 elements that all have to work together. So right now what's happening is that it's not about the distribution it's now how do I again, sorry to repeat myself, but move this into scale? How do I move it into deploy at scale to be able to manage ongoing at scale to be able to innovate at-scale, to allow engineers as I said, use the coolest tools but still have technical guardrails that the enterprise knows, they'll be in control of. >> What does at-scale mean to the enterprise customers you're talking to now? What do they mean when they say that? >> Well, I think it's interesting because we think scale's different because we've all been in the industry and it's frankly, sort of boring old word. But today it means different things, like how do I automate the deployment at-scale? How do I be able to make it really easy to provision resources for applications on any environment, from either a virtualized or bare metal data center, Cloud, or today Edge is really big, where people are trying to push applications out to be closer to the source of the data. And so you want to be able to deploy it-scale, you want to manage at-scale, you want to make it easy to, as I said earlier, allow application developers to build their applications, but ITOps wants the ability to ensure security and governance and all of that. And then finally innovate at-scale. If you look at this show, it's interesting, three years ago when we started Spectra Cloud, there are about 1400 businesses or technologies in the Kubernetes ecosystem, today there's over 1800 and all of these technologies made up of open source and commercial all version in a different rates, it becomes an insurmountable problem, unless you can set those guardrails sort of that balance between flexibility, control, let developers access the technologies. But again, manage it as a part of your normal processes of a scaled operation. >> So Dave, I'm a little challenged here, because I'm hearing two where I typically consider conflicting terms. Flexibility, control. >> Yes. >> In order to achieve control, I need complexity, in order to choose flexibility, I need t-shirt, one t-shirt fits all and I get simplicity. How can I get both that just doesn't compute. >> Well, that's the opportunity and the challenge at the same time. So you're right. So developers want choice, good developers want the ability to choose the latest technology so they can innovate rapidly. And yet ITOps, wants to be able to make sure that there are guardrails. And so with some of today's technologies, like Spectra Cloud, it is, you have the ability to get both. We actually worked with dimensional research, and we sponsor an annual state of Kubernetes survey. We found this last summer, that two out of three IT executives said, you could not have both flexibility and control together, but in fact they want it. And so it is this interesting balance, how do I give engineers the ability to get anything they want, but ITOps the ability to establish control. And that's why Kubernetes is really at its next inflection point. Whereas I mentioned, it's not debates about the distro or DIY projects. It's not big incumbents creating siloed Kubernetes solutions, but in fact it's about allowing all these technologies to work together and be able to establish these controls. And that's really where the industry is today. >> Enterprise , enterprise CIOs, do not typically like to take chances. Now we were talking about the growth in the market that you described from 1400, 1800 vendors, most of these companies, very small startups, our enterprises are you seeing them willing to take a leap with these unproven companies? Or are they holding back and waiting for the IBMs, the HPS, the MicrosoftS to come in with the VMwares with whatever they solution they have? >> I think so. I mean, we sell to the global 2000. We had yesterday, as a part of Edge day here at the event, we had GE Healthcare as one of our customers telling their story, and they're a market share leader in medical imaging equipment, X-rays, MRIs, CAT scans, and they're starting to treat those as Edge devices. And so here is a very large established company, a leader in their industry, working with people like Spectra Cloud, realizing that Kubernetes is interesting technology. The Edge is an interesting thought but how do I marry the two together? So we are seeing large corporations seeing so much of an opportunity that they're working with the smaller companies, the latest technology. >> So let's talk about the Edge a little, you kind of opened it up there. How should customers think about the Edge versus the Cloud Data Center or even bare metal? >> Actually it's a... Well bare metal is fairly easy is that many people are looking to reduce some of the overhead or inefficiencies of the virtualized environment. But we've had really sort of parallel little white tornadoes, we've had bare metal as infrastructure that's been developing, and then we've had orchestration developing but they haven't really come together very well. Lately, we're finally starting to see that come together. Spectra Cloud contributed to open source a metal as a service technology that finally brings these two worlds together, making bare metal much more approachable to the enterprise. Edge is interesting, because it seems pretty obvious, you want to push your application out closer to your source of data, whether it's AI inferencing, or IoT or anything like that, you don't want to worry about intermittent connectivity or latency or anything like that. But people have wanted to be able to treat the Edge as if it's almost like a Cloud, where all I worry about is the app. So really, the Edge to us is just the next extension in a multi-Cloud sort of motif where I want these Edge devices to require low IT resources, to automate the provisioning, automate the ongoing version management, patch management, really act like a Cloud. And we're seeing this as very popular now. And I just used the GE Healthcare example of that, imagine a CAT scan machine, I'm making this part up in China and that's just an Edge device and it's doing medical imagery which is very intense in terms of data, you want to be able to process it quickly and accurately, as close to the endpoint, the healthcare provider is possible. >> So let's talk about that in some level of details, we think about kind of Edge and these fixed devices such as imaging device, are we putting agents on there, or we looking at something talking back to the Cloud? Where does special Cloud inject and help make that simple, that problem of just having dispersed endpoints all over the world simpler? >> Sure. Well we announced our Edge Kubernetes, Edge solution at a big medical conference called HIMMS, months ago. And what we allow you to do is we allow the application engineers to develop their application, and then you can de you can design this declarative model this cluster API, but beyond Cluster profile which determines which additional application services you need and the Edge device, all the person has to do with the endpoint is plug in the power, plug in the communications, it registers the Edge device, it automates the deployment of the full stack and then it does the ongoing versioning and patch management, sort of a self-driving Edge device running Kubernetes. And we make it just very easy. No IT resources required at the endpoint, no expensive field engineering resources to go to these endpoints twice a year to apply new patches and things like that, all automated. >> But there's so many different types of Edge devices with different capabilities, different operating systems, some have no operating system. I mean that seems, like a much more complex environment, just calling it the Edge is simple, but what you're really talking about is 1000s of different devices, that you have to run your applications on how are you dealing with that? >> So one of the ways is that we're really unbiased. In other words, we're OS and distro agnostic. So we don't want to debate about which distribution you like, we don't want to debate about which OS you want to use. The truth is, you're right. There's different environments and different choices that you'll want to make. And so the key is, how do you incorporate those and also recognize everything beyond those, OS and Kubernetes and all of that and manage that full stack. So that's what we do, is we allow you to choose which tools you want to use and let it be deployed and managed on any environment. >> And who's... >> So... >> I'm sorry Keith, who's responsible for making Kubernetes run on the Edge device. >> We do. We provision the entire stack. I mean, of course the company does using our product, but we provision the entire Kubernetes infrastructure stack, all the application services and the application itself on that device. >> So I would love to dig into like where pods happen and all that. But, provisioning is getting to the point that is a solve problem. Day two. >> Yes. >> Like you just mentioned HIMMS, highly regulated environments. How does Spectra Cloud helping with configuration management, change control, audit, compliance, et cetera, the hard stuff. >> Yep. And one of the things we do, you bring up a good point is we manage the full life cycle from day zero, which is sort of create, deploy, all the way to day two, which is about access control, security, it's about ongoing versioning in a patch management. It's all of that built into the platform. But you're right, like the medical industry has a lot of regulations. And so you need to be able to make sure that everything works, it's always up to the latest level have the highest level of security. And so all that's built into the platform. It's not just a fire and forget it really is about that full life cycle of deploying, managing on an ongoing basis. >> Well, Dave, I'd love to go into a great deal of detail with you about kind of this day two ops and I think we'll be covering a lot more of that topic, Paul, throughout the week, as we talk about just as we've gotten past, how do I deploy Kubernetes pod, to how do I actually operate IT? >> Absolutely, absolutely. The devil is in the details as they say. >> Well, and also too, you have to recognize that the Edge has some very unique requirements, you want very small form factors, typically, you want low IT resources, it has to be sort of zero touch or low touch because if you're a large food provider with 20,000 store locations, you don't want to send out field engineers two or three times a year to update them. So it really is an interesting beast and we have some exciting technology and people like GE are using that. >> Well, Dave, thanks a lot for coming on theCUBE, you're now KubeCon, you've not been on before? >> I have actually, yes its... But I always enjoy it. >> Great conversation. From Valencia, Spain. I'm Keith Towns, along with Paul Gillon and you're watching theCUBE, the leader in high tech coverage. (upbeat music)

>>The cube presents, Coon and cloud native con Europe 22 brought to you by the cloud native computing foundation. >>Lisia Spain, a cuon cloud native con Europe 2022. I'm Keith towns, along with Paul Gillon, senior editor, enterprise architecture for Silicon angle. Welcome Paul, >>Thank you, Keith pleasure to work >>With you. You know, we're gonna have some amazing people this week. I think I saw stat this morning, 65% of the attendees, 7,500 folks. First time Q con attendees. This is your first conference. >>It is my first cubic con and it is amazing to see how many people are here and to think of, you know, just a couple of years ago, three years ago, we were still talking about what the cloud was and what the cloud was gonna do and how we were gonna integrate multiple clouds. And now we have this whole new framework for computing that is just rifled out of, out of nowhere. And as we can see by the number of people who are here, this has become a, a, this is the dominant trend in enterprise architecture right now, how to adopt Kubernetes and containers, build microservices based applications, and really get to that, that transparent cloud that has been so elusive. >>It has been elusive. And we are seeing vendors from startups with just a, a few dozen people to some of the traditional players we see in the enterprise space with thousands of employees looking to capture kind of lightning in a bottle, so to speak this elusive concept of multi-cloud. >>And what we're seeing here is very typical of an early stage conference. I've seen many times over the years where the, the floor is really dominated by companies, frankly, I've never heard of that. Many of them are only two or three years old, and you don't see the big, the big dominant computing players with, with the presence here that these smaller companies have. That's very typical. We saw that in the PC age, we saw it in the early days of Unix and, and it's happening again. And what will happen over time is that a lot of these companies will be acquired. There'll be some consolidation. And the nature of this show will change, I think, dramatically over the next couple or three years, but there is an excitement and an energy in this auditorium today that is, is really a lot of fun and very reminiscent of other new technologies just as they press it. >>Well, speaking of new technologies, we have Dave Cole, CR O chief revenue officer that's right. Chief marketing officer that's right of spec cloud. Welcome to the show. Thank >>You. It's great to be here. >>So let's talk about this big ecosystem. Okay. Kubernetes. Yes. Solve problem. >>Well, you know, the, the dream is, well, first of all, applications are really the lifeblood of a company, whether it's our phone or whether it's a big company trying to connect with its customer, it's about applications. And so the whole idea today is how do I build these applications to build that tight relationship with my customers? And how do I reinvent these applications rapidly in, along comes containerization, which helps you innovate more quickly. And certainly a dominant technology. There is Kubernetes. And the, the question is how do you get Kubernetes to help you build applications that can be born anywhere and live anywhere and take advantage of the places that it's running, cuz everywhere has pluses and minuses. >>So you know what the promise of Kubernetes from when I first read about it years ago is runs on my laptop. Yep. I can push it to any cloud, any platform that's that's right. Where's the gap. Where are we in that, in that phase? Like talk to me about scale. Is that, is that, is it that simple? >>Well, that act is actually the problem is that date while the technology is the dominant containerization technology and orchestration technology, it really still takes a power user. It really hasn't been very approachable to the masses. And so it was these very expensive, highly skilled resources that sit in a dark corner that have focused on Kubernetes, but that, that now is trying to evolve to make it more accessible to the masses. It's not about sort of hand wiring together. What is a typical 20 layer stack to really manage Kubernetes and then have your engineers manually can reconfigure it and make sure everything works together. Now it's about how do I create these stacks, make it easy to deploy and manage at scale. So we've gone from sort of DIY developer centric to all right, now, how do I manage this at scale? >>Now this is a point that is important, I think is often overlooked. This is not just about Kubernetes. This is about a whole stack of cloud native technologies. Yes. And you who is going to, who is going to integrate that, all that stuff, piece that stuff together, right? Obviously you have a, a role in that. Yes. But in the enterprise, what is the awareness level of how complex this stack is and how difficult it is to assemble? >>We, we see a recognition of that, that we've had developers working on Kubernetes and applications, but now when we say, how do we weave it into our production environments? How do we ensure things like scalability and governance? How do we have this sort of interesting mix of innovation, flexibility, but with control. And that's sort of an interesting combination where you want developers to be able to run fast and use the latest tools, but you need to create these guardrails to deploy it at scale. >>So where do the developers fit in that operation stack then? Is this, is Kubernetes an AI ops or an ops a task, or is it sort of a shared task across the development spectrum? >>Well, I think there's a desire to allow application developers, to just focus on the application and have a Kubernetes related technology that ensures that all of the infrastructure and related application services are just there to support them. And because the typical stack from the operating system to the application can be up to 20 different layers components. You just want all those components to work together. You don't want application developers to worry about those things. And the latest technologies like spectra cloud there's others are making that easy application engineers focus on their apps, all of the infrastructure and the services are taken care of. And those apps can then live natively on any environment. >>So help paint this picture for us. You know, I get got AKs ETS and those, all of these distributions OpenShift, the tan zoo, where is spec cloud helping me to kind of cobble together all these different distros I thought distro was the, was the thing like, just like Lennox has different distros, you know, right. Randy said different distros >>That actually is the irony. Is that sort of the age of debating, the distros largely is over. There are a lot of distros and if you look at them, there are largely shades of gray in being different from each other. But the Kubernetes distribution is just one element of like 20 elements that all have to work together. So right now what's what's happening is that it's not about the distribution it's now, how do I, again, sorry to repeat myself, but move this into a, into scale. How do I move it into deploy at scale, to be able to manage ongoing at scale, to be able to innovate at scale, to allow engineers, as I said, use the coolest tools, but still have technical guardrails that the, the enterprise knows they'll be in control of what, >>What does at scale mean to the enterprise customers you're talking to now? What do they mean when they say that? >>Well, I think it's interesting cuz we think scale's different cuz we've all been in the industry and it's frankly sort of boring old wor word, but today it means different things. Like how do I automate the deployment at scale? How do I be able to make it really easy to provision resources for applications on any environment from either a virtualized or bare metal data center cloud or today edge is really big where people are trying to push applications out to be closer to this source of the data. And so you want to be able to deploy it scale you wanna manage at scale, you wanna make it easy to, as I said earlier, allow application developers to build their applications, but it ops wants the ability to ensure security and governance and all of that. And then finally innovate at scale. If you look at this show, it's interesting, three years ago, when we started spectra cloud, there are about 1400 businesses or technologies in the Kubernetes ecosystem today there's over 1800 and all of these technologies made up of open source and commercial, all versioning at different rates. It becomes an insurmountable problem unless you can set those guardrails sort of that balance between flexibility and control, let developers access the technologies. But again, manage it as a part of your normal processes of a, of a scale of operation. >>So, so Dave, I'm a little challenged here cuz I'm hearing two where I typically consider conflicting terms. Okay. Flexibility control. Yes. In order to achieve control, I need complexity in order to choose flexibility. I need t-shirt one t-shirt fits all right. To and I, and I, and I get simplicity. How can I get both that just doesn't you know, compute >>Well thus the opportunity and the challenge at the same time. So you're right. So developers want choice, good developers want the ability to choose the latest technology so they can innovate rapidly. And yet it ops wants to be able to make sure that there are guard rails. And so with some of today's technologies like spectral cloud, it is you have the ability to get both. We actually worked with dimensional research and we sponsor an annual state of Kubernetes survey. We found this last summer, that two out of three, it executives said you could not have both flexibility and control together, but in fact they want it. And so it is this interesting balance. How do I give engineers the ability to get anything they want, but it ops the ability to establish control. And that's why Kubernetes is really at its next inflection point. Whereas I mentioned, it's not debates about the distro or DIY projects. It's not big incumbents creating siloed Kubernetes solutions. But in fact it's about allowing all these technologies to work together and be able to establish these controls. And that's, that's really where the industry is today. >>Enterprise enterprise CIOs do not typically like to take chances. Now we were talking about the growth in the market that you described from 1400, 1800 vendors. Most of these companies, very small startups are, are enterprises. Are you seeing them willing to take a leap with these unproven companies or are they holding back and waiting for the IBMs, the HPS, the Microsofts to come in with the VMwares with whatever they solution they have? >>I, I think so. I mean, we sell to the global 2000. We had yesterday as a part of edge day here at the event, we had GE healthcare as one of our customers telling their story. And they're a market share leader in medical imaging equipment. X-rays MRIs, cat scans, and they're, they're starting to treat those as edge devices. And so here is a very large established company, a leader in their industry, working with people like spectral cloud, realizing that Kubernetes is interesting technology. The edge is an interesting thought, but how do I marry the two together? So we are seeing large corporations seeing so much of an opportunity that they're working with the smaller companies, the latest technology. >>So let's talk about the edge a little. You kind of opened it up there. Yeah. How should customers think about the edge versus the cloud data center or even bare metal? >>Actually it's a well bare bare metal is fairly easy is that many people are looking to reduce some of the overhead or inefficiencies of the virtualized environment. And, but we've had really sort of parallel little white tornadoes. We've had bare metal as infrastructure that's been developing and then we've had orchestration technology's developing, but they haven't really come together very well lately. We're finally starting to see that come together. Spectra cloud contributed to open source a metal as a service technology that finally brings these two worlds together. Making bare metal much more approachable to the inters enterprise edge is interesting because it seems pretty obvious. You wanna push your application out closer to your source of data, whether it's AI in fencing or O T or anything like that, you don't wanna worry about intermittent connectivity or latency or anything like that. But people have wanted to be able to treat the edge as if it's almost like a cloud where all I worry about is the app. >>So really the edge to us is just the next extension in a multi-cloud sort of motif where I want these edge devices to require low it resources to automate the provisioning, automate the ongoing version management patch management really act like a cloud. And we're seeing this as very, very popular now. And I just used the GE healthcare example of that. Imagine a cat scan machine, I'm making this part up in China and that's just an edge device. And it's, it's doing medical imagery, which is very intense in terms of data. You want to be able to process it quickly and accurately as close to the endpoint, the healthcare provider as possible. >>So let's talk about that in some level of detail, as we think about kind of edge and you know, these fixed devices such as imaging device, are we putting agents on there? Are we looking at something talking back to the cloud, where does special cloud inject and help make that simple, that problem of just having dispersed endpoints all over the world? Simpler? >>Sure. Well we announced our edge Kubernetes edge solution at a big medical conference called, called hymns months ago. And what we allow you to do is we allow the application engineers to develop their application. And then you can de you can design this declarative model, this cluster API, but beyond cluster profile, which determines which additional application services you need and the edge device, all the person has to do with the endpoint is plug in the power plug in the communications. It registers the edge device. It automates the deployment of the full stack. And then it does the ongoing versioning and patch management, sort of a self-driving edge device running Kubernetes. And we make it just very, very easy. No, it resources required at the endpoint, no expensive field engineering resources to go to these endpoints twice a year to apply new patches and things like that, all >>Automated, but there's so many different types of edge devices with different capabilities, different operating systems, some have no operating system. Yeah. I mean, what, that seems like a much more complex environment, just calling it, the edge is simple, but what you're really talking about is thousands of different devices, right? That you have to run your applications on how, how are you dealing with that? >>So one of the ways is that we're really unbiased. In other words, we're OS and distro agnostic. So we don't want to debate about which distribution you like. We don't want to debate about, you know, which OS you want to use. The truth is you're right. There's different environments and different choices that you'll wanna make. And so the key is, is how do you incorporate those and also recognize everything beyond those, you know, OS and Kubernetes and all of that and manage that full stack. So that's what we do is we allow you to choose which tools you want to use and let it be deployed and managed on any environment. >>And who's respo, I'm sorry, key. Who's responsible for making Kubernetes run on the edge device. >>We do. We provision the entire stack. I mean, of course the company does using our product, but we provision the entire Kubernetes infrastructure stack all the application services and the application itself on that device. >>So I would love to dig into like where pods happen and all that, but provisioning is getting to the point that it's a solve problem. Day two. Yes. Like we, you know, you just mentioned hymns, highly regulated environments. How does spec cloud helping with configuration management change control, audit, compliance, et cetera, the hard stuff. >>Yep. And one of the things we do, you bring up a good point is we manage the full life cycle from day zero, which is sort of create, deploy all the way to day two, which is about, you know, access control, security. It's about ongoing versioning and patch management. It's all of that built into the platform. And, but you're right. Like the medical industry has a lot of regulations. And so you need to be able to make sure that everything works. It's always up to the latest level, have the highest level of security. And so all that's built into the platform. It's not just a fire and forget it really is about that full life cycle of deploying, managing on an ongoing basis. >>Well, Dave, I'd love to go into a great deal of detail with you about kind of this day two option. I think we'll be covering a lot more of that topic, Paul, throughout the week, as we talk about just, you know, as we've gotten past, you know, how do I deploy Kubernetes pod to how do I actually operate it? >>Absolutely, absolutely. The devil is in the details as they say, >>Well, and also too, you have to recognize that the edge has some very unique requirements. You want very small form factors. Typically you want low it resources. It has to be sort of zero touch or low touch because if you're a large food provider with 20,000 store locations, you don't wanna send out field engineers two or three times a year to update them. So it really is an interesting beast and we have some exciting technology and people like GE are using that. >>Well, Dave, thanks a lot for coming on to Q you're now Cub Alon. You've not been on before. >>I have actually. Yes. Oh. But I always enjoy it. >>It's great conversation. Foria Spain. I'm Keith towns along with Paul Gillon and you're watching the cue, the leader in high tech coverage.

>>Oh, welcome back to the cubes coverage of coop con cloud native con 2021. I'm John is the Cuba, David Nicholson, our cloud host analyst, and it's exciting to be back in person in event. So we're back. It's been two years with the cube con and Linux foundation. So scrape, it was a hybrid event and we have a great guest here, Cuban London, Nick Dirk, and CT field CTO of harness and harness.io. The URL love the.io. Good to see you. >>Thank you guys for having me on. I genuinely appreciate >>It. Thanks for coming on. You were a part of our AWS startup showcase, which you guys were featured as a fast growing mature company, uh, as cloud scales, you guys have been doing extremely well. So congratulations. But now we're in reality now, right? So, okay. Cloud native has kind of like, okay, we don't have to sell it anymore. People buying into it. Um, and now operationalizing it with cloud operations, which means you're running stuff, applications and infrastructure is code and it costs money. Yeah. Martine Casada at Andreessen Horowitz. Oh, repatriated from the cloud. So there's a lot of, there's some cost conversations starting to happen. This is what you guys are in the middle of. >>Yeah, absolutely. What's interesting is when you think about it today, we want to shift left. When you want to empower all the engineers, we want to empower people. We're not giving them the data they need, right. They get a call from the CFO 30 days later, as opposed to actually being able to look at what change I did and how it actually affected. And this is what we're bringing in. Allowing people to have is now really empowering. So throughout the whole software delivery life cycle from CGI continuous integration, continuous delivery feature flagging, and even bringing cost modeling and in cloud cost management. And even then being able to shut down, shut down the services that you're not using, how much of that is waste. We talk about it. Every single cloud conference it's how much is waste. And so being able to actually turn those on, use those accordingly and then take advantage of even the cheapest instances when you should. That's really what >>It's so funny. People almost trip over dollars to pick up pennies in the cloud business because they're so focused on innovation that they think, okay, we've got to just innovate at all costs, but at some point you can make it productive for the developers in process in the pipeline to actually manage that. >>That's exactly it. I mean, if you think about it to me in order to breach state continuous delivery, we have to automate everything. Right. But that doesn't mean stop at just delivering, you know, to production. That means to customer, which means we've got to make them happy, but then ultimately all of those resources in dev and QA and staging and UAT, we've sticker those as well. And if we're not being mindful of it, the costs are astronomical, right. And we've seen it time and time again with every company you see, you've seen every article about how they've blown through all their budgets. So bring it to the people that can affect change. That's really the difference, making it visible, looking at it. In-depth not just at the cloud level and all the spend there, but also even at the, uh, thinking about it, the Kubernetes level down to the containers, the pods and understanding where are the resources even inside of the clusters and bringing that as an aggregate, not just for visibility and, and giving recommendations, but now more importantly, because part of a pipeline start taking action. That's where it's interesting. It's not just about being able to see it and understand it and hope, right? Hope is not a strategy acting upon it is what makes it valuable. And that's part of the automate everything. >>Yeah. We'll let that at the Dawn of the age of DevOps, uh, there was a huge incentive for a developer just to get their job done, to seize control of infrastructure, the idea of infrastructure as code, you know, and it's, it's, you know, w when it was being born, it's a fantastic, I've always wondered though, you know, be careful what you wish for. Do you really want all of that responsibility? So we've got responsibility from a compliance and security perspective and of course cost. So, so where do we, where do we go from here, I guess is the question. Yeah. So >>When we look at building this all together, I think when we think about software delivery, everybody wants to go fast. We start with velocity, right? Everybody says, that's where I want to go. And to your point with governance compliance, the next roadblock to hit is weight. In order to go fast, I have to do it appropriately. I've got governing bodies that tell me how this has to work. And that becomes a challenge. >>It slows it down too. It doesn't, I mean, basically people are getting pissed off, right? This is, this general sentiment is, is that developers are moving fast with their code. And then they have to stop. Compliance has to give the green light sometimes days, correct? Uh, it used to be weeks now. It's days, it's still unacceptable. So there's like this always been that tension to the security groups or say it, or finance was like slow down and they actually want to go faster. So that has to be policy-based something. Yep. This is the future. What is your take on that? >>Take on, this is pretty simple. When everybody talks about people, process and technology, it's kind of bogus, right? It's all about confidence. If you're confident that your developers can deploy appropriately and they're not going to do something wrong, you'll let them to play all the time. Well, that requires process. But if you have tooling that literally guarantees your governance, make sure that at no point in time, can any of your developers actually do something wrong. Now you have, >>That's the key. That's the key. That's the key because you're giving them a policy-based guardrails to execute in their programs >>And that's it. So now you can free up all those pieces. So all those bottlenecks, all those waiting all those time, and this is how all of our customers, they move from, you know, change advisory boards that approve deployments. >>Can you give us some, give us some, give us some, uh, customer anecdotal examples of this inaction and kind of the love letters you get, or, or the customer you take us through a use case of how it all. >>So this is one of my favorites. So NCR national cash register. If you slide a credit card at like a Chick-fil-A or a Safeway, right? Um, traditional technology. But what was interesting is they went from doing PCI audit, which would take seven days to go to a PCI audit right now with harness, because, >>And by the way, when you and the seventh, six day, the things that you did on day one change. >>Exactly, exactly. And so now, because of using harness and everything's audited, and all the changes are, are controlled to make sure that developers again, can only do what they're allowed. They only get to broadcast two per production. If they've met all their security requirements, all their compliance, permits, all their quality checks. Now, because of that, they literally gave a re read only view of harness to their auditor. And in three hours it was over. And it's because now we're that evidence file from code commit through to production. Yeah. It's there for point of sale compliant. >>So what is the benefits to them? What's the result saves them time, saves the money. What's the good, the free up more times. I'll see the chops it down. That's the key. >>Yeah. It's actually something we didn't build in like our ROI calculators, which was, we talked to their engineers and we gave them their nights and their weekends back, which I thought was amazing. But Thursday night, when we're doing that deploy, they don't have to be up. Harness is actually managing and understanding, using machine learning to understand what normal looks like. So they don't have to, they don't have to sit and look at the knock or sit in the war room and eat the free pizza. Yeah. Right. And then when those things break, same concept rates aren't as good. So >>I got to ask you, I got you here. You know, as the software development delivery lifecycle is radically being overhauled right now, which people generally agree that that's the case, the old models are, are different. How do you see your vision around AI and automation playing into this? Because you could say, okay, we're going to have different kinds of coding styles. This batch has got an AI block here. It's very Lego block. Like yep. Okay. Services and higher level services in the cloud. What's your reaction to how this impacts automation and >>Sure. So throughout our entire platform, we've designed our AI to take care of the worst parts of anyone's job as Guinea dev ops person. If they love babysitting deployments, they don't harness handles that for them, ask your engineers that they love sitting there waiting for their tests to run. Every time they build, they go get coffee, right. Because we're waiting for all of our tests to run. Y yeah. Right. The reality >>Is sometimes they have to wait days and >>That's it. But like, if I change the gas cap on, uh, on your car, would you expect me to check every light switch and every electronic piece? No. Well, why do we do that with code? And so our AI, our ML is designed to remove all the things that people hate. It's not to remove people's jobs. It's actually to make their jobs much better. >>How do you guys feed the data? What's the training algorithm for that? How does that work? Yeah, >>Actually, it's interesting. A lot of people think it's going to take a ton of time to figure this out. The good news is we start seeing this on the second deployment. On the second bill, we have to have a baseline of what good looks like, and that's where it starts. And it goes from there. And by the way, this isn't a lot of people say AI, and this AML, I teach a class on this because ML is not standard deviation. It's not some checks. So we use a massive amount of machine learning, but we have neural networks to think about things like engineers do. Like if we looked at a log and I saw the same log with two different user IDs, you and I would know, well, it's the same thing. It's just different users, but machine learning models. Don't so we've got to build neural networks to actually think like humans. So that, >>So that's the whole expectation maximization kind of concept of people talk about, >>Well, and that's it because at the end of the day, we're like I said, I'm not trying to take people's jobs. I want to meet. >>Yeah. You want to do the crap work out of the way. And I had to do other redundant, heavy lifting that they have to do every single time we use the cloud way. We've >>Built mechanical muscle in, in the early 19 hundreds. Right. And it made everyone's jobs easier, allowed them to do more with their time. That's exactly what we're doing here. >>I mean, we've seen the big old guys in the industry trying to evolve. You got the hot startups coming out. So you got, you know, adapt or die as classic thing. We've been saying for many years, David on the cube, you know that. So it's like, this is a moment of truth. We're going to see who comes out the other side. How do you, Nick, what would you be your, your kind of guess of when that other side is, when are we gonna know the winners and the losers truly in the sense of where we are now? >>So I think what I've found is that in this space specifically, there's a constant shift and this is something with software. And the problem is, is that we see them come in ebbs and flows, right. And very few times are there businesses that actually carry the model? And what you find is that when they focus on one specific problem, it solves it. Now, if I was working on VMs a few years ago, great, but now we're, we're here at coop con, right? And that's because it's eaten, uh, that side of the world. And so I think it's the companies that can actually grow the test of time and continue to expand to where the problems are. Right. And that's one of the things that I traditionally think about harness and we've done it. We cover our customers where they were, I think the old mainframes, if you had to, where they were, where they are at their traditional, their VM. >>I mean, if you think about it, Nick, it's one of those things where it's like, that's such a common sense way to look at it evolves with a problem. So I ride the right with tech ways. But if you think about the high order bit, here is just applications. We ended the day. Companies have applications that they want to write modern. The applications of their business is going to be codified so that you just work backwards from there. Then you say, okay, what is the infrastructure as code working for me? That's an ethos of dev ops. And that's where we're at. So that's why I think that the cloud need is kind of one already, but we still have the edge devices, more complexity. This is a huge next level conversation at one point is that we just put a hard and top on the complexity. When is that coming? Because the developers are clear. They want to go fast. They want to go shift left and have all that data, get the right analytics, the telemetry and the AI. But it's too complicated still. That is a big problem. >>It's too complicated. You ask for a full-stack developer to also know infrastructure, to also know edge computing. Like it's impossible, right? And this is where tooling helps, right? Because if you can actually parameterize that and make it to the engineers and have to care, they can do what they're best at. Hey, I'm great at turning code in artifact, let them do that and have tooling take care of the rest. This is where our goal is. Again, allow people >>We'll do what they love. And this is kind of the new roles that are changing. What SRE has done. Everyone talks about the SRE and some states just as he had dev ops guy, but it's not just that there's also, uh, different roles emerging. It's, it's an architectural game. At this point, we would say, >>I'd say a hundred percent. And this is where the decisions that you make on are architecturally. If you don't know how to then roll them out, this is what we've seen. Time and time again, you go to these large companies, I've got these great architectures on planning four years later, we haven't reached it because to that point process, >>The process killed them four >>Different new tools throughout the process. Well, yeah. >>So when do we hit peak Kubernetes peak >>Kubernetes? I think we have a bit to go in and I'm excited about the networking space and really what we're doing there and, and bringing that holistic portion of the network, like when Istio was originally released, I thought that was one of the most amazing things, uh, to truly come to it. And I think there's a vast space in networking. Um, and, and so I think in the next few years, we're going to see this, you know, turn into that a hundred percent utilized across the board. This will be that where everyone's workloads continue to exist. Um, somewhat like VMs we're in >>And, and, and no, no fear of developers as code in the very near future. You're talking about automating the mundane. Correct. Uh, there have been stories recently about the three-day workweek, you know, as a, as a fan of, um, utopian science fiction, myself, as opposed to dystopian. Absolutely. I think that, you know, technology does have the opportunity to lift all boats and, uh, and it's, it's not nothing to be afraid of. You know, the fact that I put my dishes in the dishwasher and they run by themselves for three hours. It's a good thing. It's a great thing. >>I don't need to deal with that. Yeah, I agree. No, I think that's, and that's what I said in the beginning. Right. That's really where we can start empowering people. So allow them to do what they're good at and do what they're best at. And if you look at why do people quit? We don't have to go so hard to find. Yeah. Why? Because they're secondary to babysit and implement and they're told everywhere they go, they're not going to have to >>That's the line. And that's all right. We got a break, but it's great insight to have you on the Q one final question for you. Um, I got to ask about the whole data as code something that I've been riffing on for a bunch of years now. And as infrastructures could we get that, but data is now the resource everyone needs, and everyone's trying to, okay, I have the control plane for this and that, but ultimately data cannot be siloed. This is a critical architectural element. How does that get resolved in the land of the competitive advantage and lock in and whatnot? What's your take on that? >>So data's an interesting one because it has, it has gravity and this is the problem. And as we move, as I think you guys know, as you move to the edge as remove, move it places there's insights to be taken at the edge there's insights to be taken as it moves through. And I think what you'll see honestly, going forward is you'll see compute done differently to your point. It needs to be aggregated. It needs to be able to be used together, but I think you'll see people computing it on its way through it. So now even in transport, you'll start seeing insights gained in real time before you can have the larger insights. And I see that happening more and more. Um, and I think ultimately we just want to empower that >>Nick, great to have you on CTO of field CTO of harness and harness.io is a URL. Check it out. Thanks for the insight. Thank you so much. Great comments. Appreciate it. Natural cube analysts right here, Nick, of course, we've got our, our analysts right here, David Nicholson. You're good on your own. I'm John for a, you know, we have the host. Thanks for watching. Stay with two more days of coverage. We'll be back after this short break.

(upbeat music) >> Hey everyone, welcome to this Cube Conversion here in the Palo Alto Cube Studios, I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. We're here with Vicki Cheung who's the engineering manager at Lyft, and also the co-chair of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon, part of the CNCF, part of the awesome community that's doing all the Cloud Native, been there from the beginning, you guys have been driving it, Vicki welcome, to the Cube Conversation. >> Thank you. >> So I got to ask you this year, more than ever, Cloud Native is the biggest wave, you're starting to everything emerge, hybrid cloud, multicloud right around the corner, all the stuff we were talking about is playing out, it really is pretty exciting. >> Yeah, I'm super excited, 'cause I remember last time we talked about a lot of the enterprise stuff, more complicated use cases and developer productivity, and we're really seeing an uptick in all the talks in those areas so I'm super excited to actually see what everyone else is doing. And yeah, more sophisticated, at-scale use cases, how to run efficiently, how to run in data centers, hybrid situations. >> The industry is growing up right in front of our eyes. >> Vicki: Yeah I know. (both laughing) >> It's exciting. Well I want to just get the news out there, it's in Amsterdam, it's in a couple of weeks, last week of March and going into April, the conference is happening. So in all the anxiety around the Corona virus, you guys are having the policy of no shaking hands, cough in your elbow, be sensitive, what are some of the things you guys are talking about? I'm sure you're fielding a lot of questions. >> Yeah, I think a lot of people are worried, the message is generally just don't panic and be reasonable in how you interact with people and know the context. So, stay a little bit, respect personal space, don't shake hands, which I know will be awkward for a lot of people, 'cause we're trained to do that, but, yeah. >> I was just at the RSA Conference and I tried to go with the fist bump, the elbow bump, or like this, I was still shaking hands, people stuck their hands out, and I'm like, okay, I'll shake their hand and wash it real quick. >> I always feel bad, I always carry hand sanitizer, but I think the conference is going to have hand sanitizing stations, so that's going to help a lot. >> Well I'm looking forward to hearing all the great stories, more importantly, really to me again, the big story we've talked about is the industry's growing up and you're starting to see visibility into the technology trend, where it's really applying it to operations, you seeing the business benefits start to unfold, as well as excitement still for the next journey. So I got to ask you, what are the most exciting talks you're seeing? What are some of the themes that we'll be expecting to hear? >> I continue to be pretty excited about the latest state of security as people start adopting more sensitive or critical applications, developer productivity is very near and dear to my heart 'cause why change the next generation of software if you're not going to be more productive? But I also am very interested in seeing the combination of all these considerations coming together and just people running large-scale clusters, trying to run them efficiently while handling business isolation needs, compliance, how to handle multi-tenant when they have different needs, and you have one ops team that's doing all of that. So I think all the combination is really what I want to see. >> And there's a lot of Day Zero activities happening which has always been popular, so you guys are recommending that people come in if they want to enjoy some of the Day Zero activities, come in a day early. >> Yeah, more and more I have been recommending people to just go to Day Zero, there's a lot of good stuff there, I'm personally super interested in all the Lightning talks, I think people always, especially first timers to the conferences, they miss the Lightning talks because they're like, "Oh, it's Day Zero, I start at one," and yeah. >> So I was going to ask you the next question, what's your advice for the new attendees? Because you guys do have a good in-migration of new first timers, as well as the mature people growing with the industry together, what's your advice for new attendees? >> Yeah, I would say definitely come in for Day Zero, go to all the Lightning talks. There's going to be a new 101 track this time, based on the feedback from last time, a lot of people said it was very overwhelming and so we put together a one day, 101 track, for people to have talks that help them navigate, both the conference itself, and also the community. CNCF projects can also be very intimidating 'cause there's a lot of them now. So I would definitely go and check out the 101 track. Also, the advice that I give to most people is actually take your time, because a lot of the talks are recorded and you can watch them later, so try not to jam pack your schedule all day because otherwise you're not going to last. >> Don't overdose, don't try to hit everything, pace yourself, pick a groove, and then identify talks you want to watch. >> Yeah, exactly. Also I think the value of these conferences is in the people, so the content obviously is great, but the strategy I take is I identify the topics that I am interested in and also the speakers that I want to get to know and I go to their talks and I talk to the speakers afterwards. Start building out your conference network. >> So you guys get a lot of feedback, I know you guys take it seriously and you look at it, what are some of the new things or tracks that are coming this year in Amsterdam that was either part of the learnings or just new interest levels? >> So the 101 track is probably the biggest change we've made, but another thing is because the community is growing up, we've had a lot of feedback about the distribution of beginners versus intermediate versus advanced topics. I think the feedback for last time was people wanted to see more intense, deep technical dives into hard topics for people who've been using Kubernetes for a few years and so we've adjusted that a little bit this time so you should see some more interesting-- >> John: Hardcore track. >> Yes, exactly. >> It's a hardcore track. So even on the board we're saying, it's too lightweight, you can pick your spectrum or where you want to jump in. >> I think it is like the conference is growing, so there's the audience demographics is also diversifying. >> Obviously theCUBE will be there, we'll be broadcasting live. So obviously the keynotes, you'll be streaming live as well, the keynotes, is that going to happen? >> Yeah, I think so. >> So I think you guys are, so I'm going to double check that. In terms of Amsterdam, I know obviously you have the US, North America one, this is Amsterdam, what do you guys plan there, any local flavor there? Is there any twists to the event being in Amsterdam? >> Well, usually-- >> John: More fun? >> Usually all the side social events are themed to whatever region we're hosted in, so yeah, I think we'll see definitely Amsterdam flavors there. I think we also try very hard to make sure to showcase the coolest speakers or technology or projects coming from that area, so definitely, I think a lot of the talks will be from-- >> Definitely the buzz, certainly on Twitter and the scuttlebutt and chatter is, more fun, people love Amsterdam, it's a fun city. >> I know. Yeah, just like generally people when they show up to the conference, they've traveled from elsewhere, so they're just like, the vibe is like. >> There's certainly a good vibe, looking forward to it. So in the 2020 year, a lot's going on with CNCF, there's a lot of different things happening, you're in the machinery, you're in the room talking about all the plans, what's the big picture this year inside the community in terms of figuring out the tracks, the events, I mean obviously there's growth there, how are you guys handling that? What's the conversation like? >> Yeah, I think definitely there's a shift happening, actually the tracks for KubeCon has been pretty stable since the inception of the conference, and this is I think the first year where we've started talking about maybe adjusting the tracks or splitting them because of how use cases have started shifting, for example, application development has always been a really large track, and it's intentionally vague, there's a lot of things that people are building on Kubernetes so we didn't want to be too prescriptive. But because there is an explosion of use cases, we're thinking of potentially splitting that, I'll leave that up to the co-chairs for next conference, but that sort of conversation is happening. >> What are some of the use cases that are exploding, obviously there's a diverse, broad set of new use cases, is there are pattern in what you're seeing? >> Yeah, for example, for HPC, high performance computing, that's always been a topic that we see from time to time, but really for the last couple of conferences, that's been very consistent in quite a few of them, and that ties into how people are using GPUs and even more exotic networking options. We're seeing some of that this time as well, so that's it's own category. I think another thing is application development, sort of, right now, encompasses both the application side, which is your HPC use case, or development, which is developer productivity or developer experience, they're very different and so right now they're lumped together. >> I have a confession for you because one of the reasons why I love KubeCon so much, because it's really the perfect blend of geeking out and nerding out on the tech, so kind of the open-source software. When you say HPC, it's like up and down the stack, a lot of geekiness going on where you can you dig in. Then you've got the entrepreneurial vibe, so you've got open-source devs who are standing up, startups, and I've been there and they are there, and there's a lot more entrepreneurs. And then you've got the big companies who have the big wallets, and they're either buying companies. And so you have that confluence of the down and dirty, getting with the tech, open-source, startups, and big companies, so it just makes for a real fun event. So I have to ask you as you look at trying to balance all the stakeholders, what's it like? You guys see that same kind of dynamic because everyone's playing well right now in the sandbox so to speak. >> Yeah, I think it's been okay trying to balance it just because everyone is still, I think there's still more in common that people are trying to solve than they are different. And so there are a lot of topics that yes, people are solving this problem for their specific use case but actually, there's a lot of things in common for people in small companies as well as large enterprises as well. I think the interesting thing is a lot of cloud providers, they give a lot of talks as well, and you'd think, that might be too vendor specific, but actually what we're seeing is that they have a lot of experience operating many, many clusters and large infrastructure and their experience in scaling that out is helpful to companies like Lyft or other startups that are just trying to scale their deployments. >> Yeah, what's interesting, I looked at Amazon, Azure, and say, Google for instance, each one of those beg tech companies, has a commercial interest and they do have large power, but all of the people that were running these clouds, they've been at the open-source community, they know the contract that they have with the culture and plus it's so early. So I think there's a nice, I mean I see Adrian there, I see all the Google folks there, all awesome people, they're not like the greedy big bad guys, and I think that's what people don't understand about that part of it, although their validation in the business side can really help pull through a lot of these great projects. >> Yeah, for sure, I see them contributing a lot to the community as well, and they definitely are very open to initiating collaboration and I see that a lot in KubeCon, in the vendor booth area, people are talking about like, "Oh, let's start a new project," or like, "That could be open-sourced," that's the type of conversation that's happening in the sponsorship area and not like, "Oh, do you want to buy our stuff?" So, yeah. >> Yeah, I definitely think all three of those clouds I mentioned, all have awesome people over there when it comes to this community, and again, everyone's playing well, but I think that the unification around Kubernetes and what's going with Cloud Native is so powerful because I think everyone agrees that there's a bigger win beyond the short term, there's a bigger defacto standard thing going on here around hybrid and multicloud. And all the conversations we have on theCUBE these days is about hardcore hybrid and then the promise of multicloud, so I got to ask you, is there any multicloud in here, or is that too off the radar on the hype side for you guys? >> I don't think it's too off, yeah there are definitely talks about hybrid and multicloud. And I've come from companies that have done that with Kubernetes and so I don't think it's that far fetched. >> So right now it's happening, there's good conversations happening there? >> I think obviously it depends on the use cause because it does come with its own complexity, but I think the demand on infrastructure teams just keeps growing and so we get to a place where we need to be multicloud because availability reasons or because of regional issues, whatever. So yeah, it's no that far fetched. >> You're hitting the sweet spot there, because you're talking about the scale that's going on, and the operations and everyone's always worried about, change is going to make this happen, the fact of the matter is, one you have large scale and growth, skills gap and skills shortages going on, so the only way to solve that problem, and by the way, and a huge data tsunami, you got cybersecurity, the only way to solve that is automation, I mean software, that's the whole big picture. >> Yeah I think everyone's seeing the benefit of sharing the problems we're solving on the infrastructure layer because that's not our business, we're not selling infrastructure, we just want to get that in a good place, so we can actually do our business. So I think that's what's also fueling all the community and open source efforts. >> Vicki, final question, what's going to be the theme for you guys as you give your talks, and you're in the hallways, talking to folks, what's the posture this year from the group, what do you hope people walk away with from KubeCon and CloudNativeCon this year? >> Oh, that's a good question. Well personally I think a lot of what's on my mind right now, coming into this conference is, a lot of talks from San Diego were about, okay now that we're actually putting this into production, a lot of teams are realizing how much complexity there is, and how we can abstract the complexity away from the rest of engineering team outside of infrastructure and since then I think people have made a lot of contributions and have thought a lot more about that topic, so that's what's on my mind is like, okay that's what we were talking about a few months ago, let's see where we're at now. >> Let's see the proof. >> Yeah. >> Let's see the use cases, let's see the results, it's a prudent world when you start talking about operations. >> Yeah. >> Rubber's hitting the road. Okay, Vicki's here inside theCUBE, giving us a break down of the upcoming KubeCon and CloudNativeCon, she's the co-chair, puts it all together, the great team over there, and also a great community. Again, as it continues to grow, and there's a lot more to go, Cloud Native and Kubernetes is really the center of what I see is a defacto standardization around a whole new cloud operating model that's going to create a lot of benefits and a lot of great stuff for the community. I'm John Furrier with theCUBE, thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>>Live from San Diego, California. It's the cube covering to clock in cloud native con brought to you by red hat, the cloud native computing foundation and its ecosystem. >>Welcome back to the queue bumps to men. And my cohost is John Troyer and you're watching the cube here at CubeCon, cloud-native con 2019 in beautiful and sunny San Diego today. Happy to welcome to the program a first time guest, Tom Willkie, who's vice president of product ECRO funnel labs. Thank you. Thank you so much for joining us. All right, so it's on your tee shirt. We've been hearing, uh, customers talking about it and the like, but, uh, why don't you introduce the company to our audience in a, where you fit in this broad landscape, uh, here at the CNCF show. Thank you. Yes. So Grafana is probably the most popular open source project for dashboarding and visualization. Um, started off focused on time series data on metrics, um, but really recently has branched out into log analysis and tracing and, and all, all of the kinds of aspects of your observability stack. >>Alright, so really big, uh, you know, broad topic there. Uh, we know many of the companies in that space. Uh, there's been many acquisitions, uh, you know, uh, recently in this, um, where, where do you fit in your system? I saw like databases, like a big focus, uh, when, when I, when I look at the company website, uh, bring us inside a little bit. Yeah. As a product to the offering. The customers most, um, >> most, most vendors in this space will sell you a monitoring product that includes the time series database normally includes visualization and some agent as well where pharma Lampson Griffon open source projects, very focused on the visualization aspects. So we are data source agnostic and we have back ends for more than 60 different data sources. So if you want to bring together data from let's say Datadog and combine it with some open source monitoring from, you can do that with. >>Uh, you can, you can have the dashboards and the individual panels in that dashboard combined data from multiple different data sources and we're pretty much the only game in town for that. You can, you can think of it like Tableau allows you to plug into a whole bunch of different databases for your BI with that. But for monitoring and for metrics. Well, so Tom, maybe let's, before we get into the exit products and more of the service and the, and the conference here, let's talk a little well on the front page of your website, you use the Oh 11, why word? So we've said where it's like monitoring here we use words like management, we use words like ops. Observability is a hot topic in the space and for people in a space that has some nuances. And so can you just maybe let the viewers and us know a little bit about what, how the space is looking at this and how you all feel about observability and what everybody here who's running some cloud native apps needs to actually function in production. >>Yeah. So I think, um, you can't talk about observability without either being pro or, or for, um, uh, the three pillars, right? So people talk about metrics, logs and traces. Um, I think what people miss here is that it's more about the experience for the developer, you know, Gruffalo and what we're trying to achieve is all about giving engineers and developers the tools they need to understand what their applications and their infrastructure doing, right? So we're not actually particularly picky about which pillars you use and which products you use to implement those pillars. But what we want to do is provide you with an experience that allows you to bring it all into a single, a single user interface and allows you to seamlessly move between the different sources of data and, and hopefully, uh, combine them in your analysis and in your root cause of any particular incident. >>And that for me is what observability means. It's about helping you understand the behavior of your application in particular. I mean, I'm, I'm a, I'm a software engineer by trade. I'm still on call. I still get paged at 3:00 AM occasionally. And, and having the right tools at 3:00 AM to allow me to as quickly as possible, figure out what happened and then dive into a fix. That's what we're about over funnel labs. All right. So Tom, one of the things we always need to understand and show here. There's the project and there's the company. Yep. Help us just kind of understand, you know, definitely a difference. The products, the, the, the mission of the company and how that fits with the project. So the Gruffalo project predates the company and it was started by taco. Um, he, you know, he saw a spot for like needing a much better kind of graphical editing of dashboards and making, making the kind of metrics way more accessible to your average human. >>Um, the final lab started really to focus on the it and, uh, monitoring observability use cases of profanity and, but the project itself is much broader than that. We see a lot of use cases in industrial, in IOT, even in BI as well. But Grafana labs is a company we're focused on the monitoring side of things. We're focused on the observability. So we also offer, we mean, like most companies, we have an enterprise version of. It has a few data sources for commercial vendors. So if you want to, you want to get your data dog or your Splunk into Grafana, then there's a commercial auction for that. But we also offer a hosted observability platform called Grafana clown. And this is where we take the best open source projects, the best tools that we think you need as an engineer to understand your applications and we host them for you and we operate them for you. >>We scale them, we upgrade them, we fix bugs, we sacrifice the clouds predominantly are hosted from atheists, our hosted graphite and our hosted Loki, our log aggregation system, um, all combined and brought together with uh, with the Gruffalo frontend. So yeah, like two products, a bunch of open source projects for final labs, employees, four of the promethium maintainers. And I'm one of the promethium maintainers. Um, we am employee graphite maintainers. Obviously a lot of Gryffindor maintainers, but also Loki. Um, I'm trying to think, like there's just so many open source projects. We, uh, we get involved with that. Really it's about synthesizing, uh, an observability platform out of those. And that's what we offer as a product. So you recently had an announcement that Loki is now GA. can you talk just a little bit about Loki and aggregation and logs and what Loki does? >>Yeah, I'd love to. Yeah. Um, a year ago in Seattle actually we announced the Loki project. Um, it was super early. I mean I just basically been finishing the code on the plane over and we announced it and no one I think could have predicted the response we had. Um, everyone was so keen and so hungry for alternative to traditional log aggregation systems. Um, so it's been a year and we've learned a hell of a lot. We've had so much feedback from the community. We've built a whole team internally around, around Loki. We now offer a hosted version of it and we've been running it in production now for over a year, um, doing some really great scale on it and we think it's ready for other people to do the same. One of the things we hear, especially at shows like this is I really, I really, you know, developers and the grassroots adopters come to us, say, we really love Loki. >>We really love what you're doing with it. Um, but my boss won't let me use it until it goes to be one. And so really yesterday we announced it's Don V. one, we think it's stable. We're not going to change any of the APS on you. We, uh, we would love you to use it and uh, and put it into production. All right. Uh, we'd like to hear a little bit more about the business side of things. So, um, I believe there was some news around funding, uh, uh, you know, how many people you have, how many, you know, can you parse for us, you know, how many customers have the projects versus how many customers have, uh, you know, the company's products. Well, we don't, we don't call them customers of the projects that users, yes, yes, we, uh, but I'm from a company where we have hundreds of customers. >>Um, I don't believe we make our revenue figures public and, uh, so I'm probably not going to dive into them, but I know, I know the CEO stands up at our, our yearly conference and, and discloses, you know, what our revenue the last year was. So I'll refer you to that. Um, the funding announcement, that was about a month ago. We, uh, we raised a great round from Lightspeed, um, 24 million I believe. Um, and we're gonna use that to really invest in the community, really invest in our projects and, and build a bit more of a commercial function. Um, the company is now about 110 people. I think, um, it's growing so quickly. I joined 18 months ago and we were 30 people and so we've almost quadrupled in size in, in the last year and a half. Um, so keeping up is quite a challenge. Uh, the two projects, uh, products I've already touched on a few hundred customers and I think we're, you know, we're really happy with the growth. >>We've been, uh, we've never had any institutional funding before this. The company is about five years old. So we've been growing based on organic revenue and, and, and, and, you know, barely profitable, uh, but reinvesting that into the company and, and it's, yeah, it's going really well. We're also one of the, I mean it's not that unique I guess, but we're remote first. We have a more than 50% of our employees work from home. I work from my basement in London. We have a few tiny like offices, one in Stockholm and one in New York, but, but we're really keen to hire the best people wherever they are. Um, and we invest a lot in travel. Uh, we invest a lot in, um, the, the right tools and getting the whole company together to really make that work. Actually a really fun place to work. What time? >>We're S we're still in the business here and I don't know how much time you've spent at the booth this year, but I don't, can you compare, I mean, we've been talking about the growth of this community and the growth of this conference. Can you compare say this year to last year, the, the people coming up, their maturity, the maturity of their production, et cetera. Are they, are they ready to buy? Are they still kicking? Are they still wondering what this Cooper Cooper need easy things is, you know, where, where is everybody this year and how does that, how has it changed? Yeah, and that's a good question where we're definitely seeing people with a lot more sophisticated questions. The, the, the conversations we're having at the booth are a lot longer than they've been in previous years. The um, you know, in particular people now know what key is. We only announced it a year ago and gonna have a lot of people asking us very detailed questions about what scale they can run it at. >>Um, otherwise, yeah, I think there is starting to be a bit more commercial intent at the conference, some few more buying decisions being made here. It's still predominantly a community oriented conference and I think the, the, I don't want that to go away. Like, that's one of the things that makes it attractive to me. And, and I bring my whole team here and that's one of the things that makes it attractive to them. But there is a little bit more, I'm a little more sales activity going on for sure. Any updates to the, to the tracing and monitoring observability stories of the projects here at CNCF this year since you as you're part of the promethium project? >> Yes. So we actually, we had the promethium conference in Munich two weeks ago and after each committee conference, the maintainers like to get together and kind of plan out the next six months of the project. >>So we started to talk about um, adding support for things like exemplars into Prometheus's. This is where each histogram bucket, you can associate an example trace that goes, that contributed towards that, that history and that latency. And then you can build nice user interfaces around that. So you can very quickly move from a latency graph to example traces that caused that. Um, so that's one of the things we're looking to do in Prometheus. And of course Jaeger graduated just a week ago. I think. Um, we're big users of Jaeger internally at for final amps. And actually on our booth right now, uh, we're showing a demo of how we're integrating, um, visualization of distributed tracing, integral foreigner. So you can, you know, using the same approach we do with metrics where we support multiple backends, we're going to support Yeager, we're going to support Zipkin, we're going to support as many open source tracing projects as we can with the Grafana UI experience and being able to seamlessly kind of switch between different data sources, metrics all the way to logs all the way to traces within one UI. >>And without ever having to copy and paste your query and make mistakes and kind of translate it in your head. Right. >> Tom, give us a little bit, look forward. Uh, you know, a lot of activities as the thing's going to, you know, graduating and pulling things together. So what should your users be looking for kind of over the next six to 12 months? >> That's a great question. Yeah, I think we do a yearly release cycle for foreigners. So the next one we're, we're aiming towards is for seven, like for me to find a seven's going to be all about tracing. So I really want to see the demo we're doing. I want to see that turned into like production ready code support for multiple different data sources, support for things like exemplars, which we're not showing yet. Um, I want to see all of that done in Grafana in the next year and we've also massively been flushing out the logging story. >>I'm with Loki, we've been adding support for uh, extracting metrics from the logs and I really think that's kind of where we're going to drive Loki forward in the future. And that really helps with systems that aren't really exposing metrics like legacy systems where the only kind of output you get from them is the logs. Um, beyond that. Yeah, I mean the welds are kind of oyster. I think I'm really keen to see the development of open telemetry and um, we've just starting to get involved to that project ourselves. Um, I'm really interested to kind of talk to people about what they need out of a tracing system. We, we see people asking for a hosted tracing systems. Um, but, but IMO is very much like pick the best open source ones. I don't think that's, that's emerged yet. I don't think people know which is the best one yet. >>So we're going to get involved in all of them. See which one's a C, which one's a community kind of coalesces around and maybe start offering a hosted version of that. >> You know, our final thing is, uh, you know, what advice do you have for users? Obviously, you know, you like the open source thing, but you know, they're hearing about observability everywhere there are, you know, the, the whole APM market is moving this direction. There's acquisitions as we talked about earlier. Um, there's so many moving pieces and a lot of different viewpoints out there. So just, you know, from a user, how do you know, how will things ma, what makes their lives easier and what advice would you give them? Yeah, no, definitely. I think a lot of vendors will tell you like to pick a, pick a vendor who's going to help you with this journey. >>Like I would say like, pick a vendor you trust who can help you make those decisions. Like find someone impartial who's gonna not make, not try and persuade you to buy their product. So we would, uh, you know, I would encourage you to try things out to dog food and to really like invest in experimentation. There's a lot going on in, uh, in, in the observability world and in the cloud native world. And you've got to, you've got to try it and see what fits. Like we embrace this, uh, composability of the, uh, of the observatory of, of the observability ecosystem. So like, try and find which, which choices work best for you. Like I, uh, whenever, whenever I talk to him, you still have to lick all the cupcakes in 2019. I think. I mean, I would, it depends on your level of kind of maturity, right? >>And sophistication. Like, I think if, uh, if, if this is really important to you, you should go down that approach. You should try them all. If this is not one of your core competencies that may be going with a vendor that helps you is a better approach. But, but I'm, I come from the open source world and, uh, you know, I like to see the, um, the whole ecosystem and all the different players and all the different, new and exciting ways to solve these problems. Um, so I'm, I'm always going to encourage people to have a play and try things out. All right, Tom, final word, Loki. Explain to us, uh, you know, when you're coming up with it, how you ended, uh, are you the God of mischief? Well, so the official line is the Loki is the, um, is the North mythology equivalent of Prometheus's, uh, in Greek mythology and, and lochia logging project is, is, is Prometheus's inspired logging. So we've tried to take the operational model from, from atheists, the query language from, from atheists and, and the kind of a cost efficiency from, from atheists and apply it to logs. Um, but I will admit to being a big fan of the Marvel movies. All right, Tom Willkie. Thank you so much for sharing the updates on, on the labs. Uh, we definitely look forward to hearing updates from you and thank you. All right, for, for John Troyer, I'm Stu Madmen back with more coverage here from San Diego. Thank you for watching. Thank you for watching the cube.

(upbeat techno music) >> Narrator: From New York, it's theCUBE, Covering Escape/19. >> Okay, welcome back to theCUBE coverage here in New York City for the first inaugural Multi-Cloud Conference called Escape/2019 as in gathering of industry thought leaders, experts, entrepreneurs, engineers, really having substantive conversations around what multi-cloud is, what it's going to look like, what are some of the thing, technical and business opportunities around that, really small intimate conference. Again first inaugural conference. I'm here with my next guest to talk about that Chris Smith, Vice President of Engineering, on Data Science at Ticketmaster. Chris, thanks for coming on. >> Thank you very much Don. >> Appreciate taking the time. >> Glad to talk to you. >> Practitioner out there, you know, we all go scar tissue. >> Yes we do. >> If you don't have scar tissue, if you're not breaking things and then the learning from it then you're not advancing. But sometimes you don't want to step too far forward right? >> Yep, yep. >> Can you get back it's like you know. So you guys have a great experience. Legacy business, I remember buying tickets when I was going to conference back in the day when I was in, you know, in college. >> Yep. >> Buy it at Ticketmaster. >> That's right, that was Ticketmaster then, Ticketmaster now. >> Now it's lot of online provisioning of all direct to consumer. So you guys are a journey, tell the story. >> Well certainly, the company Ticketmaster, has had an incredibly long journey, starting back our first concert was Electric Light Orchestra which kind of like puts that in in context. >> (laughs) I was in eighth grade, '79. >> Yeah, yeah that was back at ASU. And even then we were a very innovative technology company we were making ticketing platforms that performed better, got more capacity out of the hardware than anybody else could do, anything close to that. We were really pioneered that idea of the what was at the time called the electronic ticket. Which was the idea that, you know, you could go to any store that was selling tickets for an event and the same inventory would be available at each store instead of the old model of a bunch of tickets getting sent out to each place >> That was bad-ass back in the day. >> That was really cutting edge and we've been evolving ever since then for 40 years. We were also very early onto the web scene. We were selling tickets online before anybody else was and before most people were selling anything online really to a degree. So we've been pioneers in a lot of areas, we see ourselves as the technology partner for the live events business. That's really what we are. And as a consequence, we're always sitting on that edge right? Trying to innovate and move to new opportunities but at the same time trying to provide that quality of experience at scale. >> Yeah. >> That is so critical to the business. >> And there's a big business so it's not like it's your nimble start up but you got to be agile. What are the learnings? Take us through the cloud learnings as you guys pioneered and started to go into that pioneering mode which was okay, you don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out what a cloud's going to do. So you guys probably said hey, we got to go look at this, let's go pioneer our impact, take us through that what happened? >> Yeah absolutely, and I think there's two interesting contexts that started that conversation right? One was we're one of the few online businesses that launches a denial of services attack against itself on a regular basis, basically every day, right? And so we have traffic patterns that are unusual even for a typical e-commerce site where we might see loads that are a hundred x, you know beginning of a Taylor Swift on sale. There's going to be traffic like no one's business. And then when all her tickets are sold, there's not going to be nearly as much traffic right? And so that is the nature of our business and cloud is very attractive for its elastic capacity. When we were running on prim, we have to provide all that capacity all the time, just to have it for that one peak moment that might literally be the highest traffic level we see all year, right? So that drew a lot of the interest in looking at the cloud in the first place. And then the other aspect was we'd been working on, you know we'd been running on prim for nearly 40 years at the time and there is a lot of technical debt that had accumulated in the system at that point. And so, there was an interest in maybe potentially being able to leverage cloud vendors' infrastructure, and migrate systems onto that and then sort of declare bankruptcy on some of that technical debt rather than trying to pay it off. And so that, those were the two thoughts that were driving that conversation. I think we got really excited by the possibility and we committed really heavily to the idea of a strategy of just moving aggressively into the cloud as fast as we possibly could. And we knew that in the process, that we would be breaking some things, we'd be you know discovering some challenges et cetera, and that's definitely what happened, right? >> (laughs) What was the big learning? >> I think the biggest learning was that, you know, we had been developing systems for decades literally, with our on prim environment and so the systems were actually very well tuned for that on prim environment and that on prim environment was very well tuned for them. >> Yeah, yeah exactly. >> And it clouds use-- >> On all levels, hardware, software. >> Yeah, all the way through 'cause it's a fully integrated, vertically integrated solution. We build a lot of this stuff custom ourselves. >> John: Yeah, and we would decompose all that. >> And so it was very difficult to migrate some parts of that to the cloud and more importantly we're pretty smart guys, we can figure out how to move stuff into the cloud. But then to do it in a cost effective manner. Required in a lot of cases, really dramatically changing the design and architecture even of the software at a pretty fundamental level that you just can't do overnight. And so ironically, you know, the technical debt that we had in our infrastructure didn't seem quite so huge once you start thinking about the technical debt of the entire stack, right? And so then we realized that we could be much more strategic about how we went after our cloud strategy and that's kind of where we are now. Where we are being smart about, there's a lot of new products that are being developed, that, you know, we can build from the get go with the idea of them being designed for the cloud. >> Cloud native. >> Exactly, so we have a lot of stuff like that, that's just being built, in fact, the bulk of our website now when you go to visit it as a consumer, the bulk of that is running in the cloud right now. But, there are some really critical systems that are core to that experience, that are still running on prim. >> So you guys had to essentially re-architect the operating environment to take into account hybrid operating. >> Yes. >> Decoupling the critical systems that can't be tampered with, maybe put some containers of Kubernetes move some services around. But for the most part treat Cloud Native as Cloud Native, Greenfield apps and nurture-- >> Yeah but there's also refactoring opportunities. So there's a lot of opportunities where you need to go in and change the product anyway and that can be an opportunity to make things a lot more cloud friendly and better take advantage of the capabilities that the cloud has, so it's actually a mix of both. >> Give an example of a good opportunity to refactory, 'cause this comes up a lot in my CUBE interviews. Like okay, 'cause it's all opportunity, opportunistic, but what are the characteristics for a great refactoring opportunity the tune up? >> So a lot of times when you want to refactor really what you want to do is take a set of capabilities that you may have in a much larger system and pull 'em out and manipulate them and play around with them and do things differently. So, our ticket purchasing process we're constantly looking at tweaking the process. Now the core pieces of it remain the same right? But we might want to change the experience and provide something more innovative that's different from what people used to do. And so one of the areas we're working on for this as an example is reserve-less checkout. Where you just buy the ticket without ever actually reserving the seat. That's a very small minor change in the flow, but to make that really work you have to pull out the pieces of the system anyway right? And grab, say I want these four pieces to rearrange differently, so that's a great refactoring opportunity. You can make all those pieces, what we actually did is we've made those pieces into lambdas that are sitting in AWS, they're basically not running most of the time which is great. >> Yeah. (laughs) >> Really cheap when it's not running right? >> Yeah, exactly. >> Very efficient. But then when we need them they run very efficiently and more importantly we can now manipulate the order of operations for this stuff. So breaking things out into those composable parts whenever you know you need to do that anyway, it's a great opportunity to change it. >> So great for work flow refactoring there. >> Absolutely. >> Final question for you, I know we got to break for lunch, but, then really appreciate you coming and sharing your insight. >> Absolutely. >> As a pioneer in data science and data you got machine learning certainly is the engine of AI. AI gets math and cognition are kind of coming into it. Learning machines, deep learning, bla bla bla, what's your, in your opinion, what are some pioneering areas that are ripe pioneering grounds to dig into in data science and data? When you think about CloudScale, Hybrid and just, in general what are the ripe opportunities for people to pioneer in daily. What's the next frontier in your mind? >> So I think the trend right now that's maybe not the frontier, but it's now where the main shift is, is to moving into what I would call real time learning, right? Where you're doing refactor, reinforcement learning, or online learning of some form. Where you're literally, the data's arriving in real time, transforming your model in real time, learning in real time, that's key to our strategy and it's very very common. But I think in terms of where the frontiers are it's actually kind of everywhere, in the sense that the name of the game is the cost of doing that work is getting lower and lower. You know, data's getting cheaper, computes' getting cheaper, and also the products for doing it are getting more productized, so you need less expertise and you can deploy them more quickly. So what you want to look at is businesses that are traditionally been too low margin right? To apply machine learning to but have large scale, right? Which is like the commodity, everything in that's commoditized, right? Now there's an opportunity to, there's the cost have gone so low-- >> To squeeze insight out of those areas. >> That you can now optimize that small margin and get value from it with you know, otherwise like 10 years ago it would have been so costly to build a machine learning infrastructure for it. You would've lost more money than you would've gained. >> So you could, what your saying is, these areas that were not attractive because of cost in the past, that have large scale, there's penetration opportunities to create value and insight that could-- >> Absolutely. >> Bring in new franchises and new capabilities. >> And that's why I think you know the Andreessen's software's eating the world thing, that's what that's really about is as those costs get lower, as the ability to deploy gets easier, suddenly businesses that before didn't make any sense to invest in this way, they totally make sense and in fact there's huge opportunities to completely transform the landscape by getting in. >> Chris you're a man of our world, we love you, thank you for coming on theCUBE. >> Thank you so much. >> That's great insight. >> Look at this we're getting insider on the future of data, which I believe everything that he just said is totally relevant. You're an entrepreneur out there, you can attack big markets and get in there with a position with great IP, great intellectual property, again this is the modern world of computer science. >> It is. >> Don't ya think? >> It absolutely is. >> This is the benefit of scale and cloud. >> Absolutely. >> I wish I was 20 something years old again. (laughs) We've been through the ringer. >> Yes. >> Chris, thanks for coming on. Keep coverage here in New York for the first inaugural conference, Escape/2019, I'm John Furrier here, thanks for watching. (upbeat techno music)

>> live from Boston, Massachusetts. It's the Cube covering AWS Reinforce 2019. Brought to you by Amazon Web service is and its ecosystem partners. Welcome >> back, everyone. Day two of live coverage here in Boston, Massachusetts, for AWS Amazon Web services. Inaugural conference called Reinforce. This is a Cloud security conference, the first of its kind. It's the beginning of what we see as a new generation of shift in now new category called Cloud Security. Obviously, Cloud has been growing. Security equation is changing and evolving. I got a great guest here. Colby Alan, who's a platform architect at ZIP with based in Seattle. Great for joining us. Thanks for coming on. Thanks for having me. So we're chatting before we came on about your journey and your Dev ops chops you guys have built over there that I want to get into that just quickly explain what you guys do real quick. Set the context. >> Yes, it is on SMS text messaging provider way Specialize in toll free messaging. We also texting able landline phone numbers. Our business is kind of really split into two parts way. Have you know your traditional Sadd's application that ran runs like a sad That's where you can, you know, have the you I thio interface your landline phone number eight under number With that messaging, no, top that We run a carrier grade network. So we have direct binds into all the major carriers in the U. S. Bringing online some Canadian carriers. That's really where the power of our platform and we own the network on DSO way started Nicolo and over the last last year, which has spent nine months moving all that into Amazon and >> forget about that. So explain the architecture. You guys move yet polos with network you moved to Amazon with three people. Just classic devils. A lot of hard work, I'm sure take us through what happened. What was the old environment? And now what does it look like now? >> Yeah, so, you know, when I just started with, you know, they were interesting place. They were just starting a huge growth. And so at that point, they existed in a few data centers in the U. S. And running the empire workloads on or bare metal databases on. The problem was, there was just a scaling problem, right? I mean, we couldn't way We're looking at the type of scale we needed and trying to procure hardware. And we just couldn't physically get it fast enough with the right amount of budget. So I come from a previous place doing a job? Yes. I mean, that's kind of what I've done for a lot of years. So, you know, I convinced my boss stay here. Let's let's run the stats happen. Eight of us. So we built that ran it, launched our new version of arse as application in Amazon. And at that point, you know, our traffic skyrocketed. You know, I think last year we had somewhere to 180% growth, right? And, you know, our core infrastructure just wasn't surviving. Right is outages and problems. And so, you know, we took it and we we went to Amazon with it. And, you know, we rebuilt it all. And it was a really interesting thing, because Amazon was Luther releasing features and we were consuming them, right? Five. Siri's and Nitro came out, and we're like finally waken get performance of the networking interfaces. Then they released the D instances within ve Emmys, or like finally, our databases will survive and they can go fast enough, you know? And then we leveraging huge Aurore instances, real impact power, the back end of this thing. So you >> guys really tapped really? At the right time? You guys were growing. You saw the, you know, that scale potentially bursting. You saw the scale coming in growth coming in the company you could almost see. Okay, look, we got a plan. So you go to Amazon News Service is what's the impact on the staff has been any more people. What's been the impact on? >> Yeah, I think the big thing is the initial move. We did it for three of us. I mean, it was a lot of work. We spent a lot of time doing it. A lot of people, sleepless nights, a lot of long weekends. But now you know, we've got a really stable platform, and, you know, we were able to really continue processing our message. Growth is increased, and we know we haven't, you know, had to totally re architect things again, right? The architecture's work has grown and expanded. Stale ability has been fantastic for us. The performance, of course, is you know, some of >> the best walking commercial for eight of us, a question paper. But if you'll have that same experience, but what's interesting is you guys essentially are, in my opinion, representative of the trend that we're seeing, which is certainly in security as they catch up the devil. That's a big story here. Security now can level up with speed of the Dev ops kind of engineering philosophy and pointing, but it's it's the trend of building your own and a lot of companies. They're reinvesting in teams of people because they're close to the action and they can actually code if I quickly use cases that they know are bona fide, whether it's a low level platform service, primitive or right up into the app, using machine learning and data. So you know you have now that now you had security in there. This is where the action is and so cos I mean, I see the successful ones like you guys coming in saying You know what? Let's not boil the ocean over. Let's just solve one problem scale and then let's look at the service is that we can leverage to doom or take us through that philosophies. I think you guys were great example of that. >> So, I mean, if we touch on the security aspect, I think that that was a big thing is way. Don't run a dedicate security team. My team is the security team, right? And that was a big thing that both me and my director is. You know, we wanted the people building it to be doing the security. And, you know, the that was what was really, you know, easy with eight of us is, you know, we could turn on all these fancy features. It was just, you know, a flag and Terra formed all of a sudden way. Have encryption arrest. It's something we've never had before. So there's that. And then, you know, to the builder methodology be because we came from such a scrappy like way. Got to go fast, like we didn't have time to evaluate software bringing consultants, you know, it's so, you know, we kind of just kind of adopted that, you know, it's better for us a lot of times to kind of roll our own thing. Andan there, times where there's software that's a good fit for it. I mean, we do use some external vendors on things, and >> that's really more of a decision on the platform. But as you look at the platform engineer, you go. Okay, we gotta build here. Let's weigh No, he don't really is not me that be a core competency. Let's go look at some vendors for this, this and that. But ultimately, if you look at something that's really core, you can dig into it. And certainly with Kubernetes and with a lot of the service is coming out sas after taking eventually Cloud Native. >> Yeah, yeah, through you're you're so we're huge Criminality is 100% kubernetes everywhere, and I think that that's really been another big thing for us is you know, it's it's brought our application up a level to be able to integrate, be more reliable. I mean, you know where you used to have this external service discovery piece, and then you have your security peace. You know where kubernetes I can go deploy a container application. Describe it all at once, right? It's all in my coat config so I can audit it for our compliance sees. You know we can co to review for our compliance, sees but the same time I deploy the whole thing. I'm not. Here's this team to point the There's this other team then coming by trying to secure the app. It it's all together. >> The old way would have been kind of build it out, maybe use some software. Have all these silo teams. Yes, and that's kind of all kind of built in. >> Yeah, we kinda just opened it out, right? I mean, you know, from from arse, as teams leveraging a lot of, you know, the security features that are available to us to our core piece, which is a very different type of software, you know, is leveraging the same pieces and same type of monitoring principle. >> It's interesting, You know, the Kino. There's something people hemming and hard around, like the word Dev sec ops. I mean, I love Devon. We've been we've been part of that since day one. It's been fun to be part of it, but we saw the benefits of it. Clearly. You see, no doubt there's no debate. But when you start getting into some of the semantic definitions, go to security known feel that, by the way, is fragmented like crazy and now you get the growth of the cloud is starting to see cloud security become its own thing That's different than the on premises side. So what's your take on that? Because a lot of people are wanting their going to cloud anyway. So what's that they're saying on premise, security posturing and cloud security? In your opinion? >> Yeah, so I mean, it is drastically different. I think part of it's the tool set that's available, right? I mean, we ran data centers. I've automated data centers, but, you know, they're just not at the level of which I could do the automation in the auditing in the cloud. So I feel like I found actually, some respects makes it easier for me to do security on run security and audit security numbers. The data center. You know, I don't run a lot of tooling and a lot of things to get all the views. I need it, But there's a lot of really separate systems, you know, in the cloud you have, like this one. Nice, fundamental, a p I. That hi is a person who has to build the infrastructure can use, but it's the same a p I that I put my security had on that. Like I used to make security, right, security groups, things of that sort. It's all the same, right? I'm not having to learn five different applications has been really important for our team because, you know, my team comes from the vast majority of no true Dev ops Thio. You know, we've been upgraded from people in our knock, you know, and have them really just learned the one ecosystem >> is you don't want to fragment the team. Yeah, I don't wanna have five different skill sets, kind of >> their victims. We just We don't wanna have tools that only one person knew how to do right. We wanted people to take vacations right? And like, we don't want to have a tool that's like only only that person knows how to run it, nobody else does. And so >> that was the big thing for us. What you think about the show here, reinforce all say it's not an Amazon Webster's summit. They do the summits which assistance see a commercial version of reinventing regions. This is a branded show is obviously their cloud security going hard at it. What's your take. So far, >> I've really enjoyed it. I mean, so I've gone to some. It's I've been to reinvent for a few years spoken to reinvent once, you know? But, you know, those things were fun, but they're so big and there's so much going on, you know, it's it's refreshing to be in this reinforced conference and focus on the security side. Sitting talks were like, You have people getting into kms and like some of these really pivotal tools. Yeah, it's been really, really >> get down and dirty here. Yeah, And people talk to, you know, approachable >> without, like, having to deal with all of Amazon, right? I can focus on, like, this one little >> portion reinvent you kidding? Walked through the hallways just like >> yeah, I mean, Well, where one hotel Are you gonna >> be at that point now, right? Yeah. >> Okay. So I gotta ask you about the dev ops question. We've been commenting yesterday day Volonte, who is on his way in. He and I were talking with a lot of si sos and a lot of practitioners. And the conversation generally was security needs to catch up to Dev ops and to pay who you talk to. They may or may not believe that way. Think that to be true. We think security now has the level up with the speed of Dev ops from his agility things that are highlights. For example, you guys have What's your take on that when someone says, Hey, security's got to catch up the devil Is it really catching a prism or transformation? What's your view on this >> will be like when you say catching up like it takes a negative. You know, I don't want to be negative there on DSO. I feel like it's a transformation. That means the same thing of going from the data center as as just as an operational engineer to Amazon is, there wasn't catching up. It was you just changing everything you do and how you think. And I think you know that's That's the same thing that a lot of security people I've seen struggle with was their success. Life are the ones that have gone, and I understand that, like, >> what do you think is the most important story happening in this world security cloud security screen general that should be covered by media that should be covered by the industry that is covered him should be amplified Maur or isn't covered and should be talking about what's the what is the most important stories that should be told. >> Well, so again, you know, I'm a fundamental layer, so things to me that I are always over shouted or like, you know, just encryption, right? I mean, everybody's like train encryption on. But, you know, I feel that talks I've gone to today or deeper dives into that. I feel like, you know, the kms product of Amazon. I feel like is a very powerful product that isn't super talked about. It's been nice here because they talked about 100 like you go to reinvent you don't really see a lot of kms type things are crowded, just them. And, you know, I think it makes some of those very difficult products to run in a data center very easy. You know what you hear on the security side is unsecured, as three buckets are like. Security groups are in conflict. Configure it incorrectly. And you know, no one knows that commercial. Everyone knows that. You know Elasticsearch not turned into a new s three right compromises You choose your database of choice of public. But for me, I think it's like a part that I feel is missing with Amazon is the ease of use of like, clicking a button. And >> now I have >> full Aurora encryption by default >> and the service you can just turn on what's next for you guys. Give us a peek into some of the things they're working on. What excited about? >> So I mean, we're making Ah, big thing is, you know, so we spend a lot of building now we're kind of going back and really kind of wrapping are a lot of our compliance is so zip it is a hole has been working towards a lot of stock to type compliance, seize on things like that. So, you know, we've been working through governance and no deploying. You know, software that kind of is more actively watching our environment and alerting us or helping us make sure we're staying at C. I s type benchmark so that you know, when my boss comes to me and says, Show me that we're doing this, I can just say, Oh, here's dashboard. So we were really not like via more secure State is a big, big product that we're working with right now. We leverage cloud health and those kind of the two external vendors that we've really partnered with. And so, you know, this year's been adopting those into the system. That's when the eight of us side, you know, we still just run Cooper Nettie. So there's a lot going on in the Cuban aunties ecosystem that we're also working on. So, like, service, mash and things of that sort like, How can I take this idea of security groups in this least trust model infrastructural e up to kubernetes, which by default this kind of flattened open. And so, you know, we've been exploring envoy and sdo linker D or write our own, you know, you know, and looking through those things and and then again wrote, making more robust CCD pipeline. So container scanning vulnerability, protecting our edge way running cloudfront wife for a while. But, you know, a lot of this year's gonna be spent, you know, Evaluate Now you know, we deployed a lost about 10 and got it turned on right because it works. But diving more deeply into like some of the autumn mediations >> have a fun environment right now, is it? You can knock down some core business processes, scale them up, and then you got the toys to play with the open source front. You got kubernetes really a robust ecosystem. They're just It's a lot of fun. >> Yeah, Criminal has definitely been exciting to play with >> advice to fellow practitioners and platform engineers because, you know, you guys been successful with transmission A the best. You got your hands on a lot of cool things. You got a good view, the landscape on security side of the deaf, upside for the people out there who were like they want to jump in with a parachute open. Whatever makes you that nervous, Some people are aggressively going at it hard core. Some have cultural change issues. What's your invite? General advice to your >> fellow appears My advice is just jump in and do it right. I mean, you know, don't be afraid. I mean, we had a really fast transformation, and we failed a lot very fast, and we weren't afraid of it. I mean, you know, if we weren't failing, we weren't doing it right. You know, in my opinion, right. We had to fail a few times a year. I was gonna work. And so I think, you know, don't be scared to jump in and just build, you know, right the automation. See what it does. Run some tests against it. >> You know, it's almost like knowing what not to do is the answer. Get some testing out there, get his hands dirty. >> What's gonna work for you? What's gonna work for your business? And the only way you're going to do that is to actually do it. >> Showed up in specialized Colby. Thanks for coming and sharing the great insight. Kobe Alan, platform engineer for Zip Whip Great company here. The Cube. Bring all the action. Extracting the signal from the noise. Great insights. And here, coming from reinforced here in Boston, eight dresses. First conference around. Cloud security will be right back after this short break

live from San Francisco it's the cube covering Google cloud next 19 taught to you by Google cloud and its ecosystem partners hello everyone welcome back to the cubes live coverage here in San Francisco the Moscone Center for the Google clouds conference is called Google next 2019 I'm Chevrolet my costume in omim de Ville ante is also here doing interviews our next guest is probably Bob who's the VP of product and design for server lists at Google probably great to see you thanks for coming on thank you for having me so you'd be a you're the VP of Product you got the keys to the kingdom on the roadmap you're seeing all the announcements obviously server lists cloud run was announced cloud code was mentioned on stage that's going to come out tomorrow so code build run this is DevOps this is actually happening yeah you know what super exciting is that we've we're finally solving the problem for customers and taking a customer centric view of this I'll start off with a little bit of the journey we took to get here right as we were talking to customers they kept coming back to three things that they wanted from us the first thing they wanted was agility they understand that you know cloud could give them great cost savings but they also wanted to be able to move faster and innovate right the second bit they wanted was having the flexibility to be hybrid and multi-cloud super important especially to our largest customers and then the third piece was they've really struggled with his journey to cloud and they wanted our partnership to make it a much more seamless and non-deceptive journey so as we talk to them about these three things right we came back to the drawing board and said hey what are the products that we can build to make their journey to be more cloud native and more agile much more seamless and future-proofed that much better right so we came back to the drawing board and came up with three products that you talked about this now the first was we looked at developers and their journeys and we said look they're building in traditional ideas like IntelliJ or vs code optimized for local development right and they're not writing a lick of Yama they're right for kubernetes and we said okay how can we take those environments and help those development teams build cloud native apps really really easily so really just turbocharging their cloud native development so bill cloud code which extends their local ids and lets them deploy to remote clusters so they can get full debugging full deployment building its integrated in the cloud build and they get the full kubernetes a development environment right in place so cloud build was released earlier you got enhancements of that so news the hard news here is enhancements to cloud build cloud code as new announce here yeah cloud run announced today that's right so this is the new this is the new hard news that's right so bottom line what does it mean for a developer so like I didn't enterprise so I'm a cio I'm a site C so I'm gonna be putting all my eggs in the cloud basket I've still gonna run the on Prem day is gonna be critical to my strategy it's this early day set up time or are you guys thinking it's more about the setup or more the life cycle of CI CD pipelining all the way to application deployment a great question John so I think where we are in this journey is that enterprises have started off with something that's the most basic cloud ready workloads that have been lifted and shifted we now see the next wave of workloads this is the 80% of workloads that are still on premise we see them start to get cloud ready and cloud native and the way that their enterprises are gonna do that is by building on top of the standards we've created like kubernetes and sto and key native and what cloud cold and build and run and of course Anthes that we talked off this morning as well these are great managed solutions from Google fully managed solutions from Google that let you get cloud native fast all right Polly wonder if you can help us you know spin through I see a disconnect in the market so you know Google showed great leadership in the container space and of course kubernetes we came out of Google and when I look at like cloud run okay it's helping to connect that and Kay native to kubernetes in service when I talk to a lot of the developers and service it's not the infrastructure moving up the stack it's they didn't want to even think about it it's right built in the cloud that's right I focus on the application I don't even think about that so I've got this big gap as to you know on premises forget it I don't never want to touch it or think about it and you know the one of the reasons you know there's the term server list would put it to the side but now if I need one is this environment I don't want to think about it and we know hybrid is a reality but there's this big disconnect as to what kind of developer are you or you a DevOps person that came from an infrastructure background or are you just building apps today yeah yeah yeah we're definitely seeing that from our customers right so one thing that we hear all the time is developers don't want to just not think about infrastructure they actually want the managed service and the platform they're building on to think about the infrastructure and optimize it for them so it's not this program will infrastructure it it's cloud run programming the infrastructure for you so you don't have to do it and I think increasingly you're gonna see products like cloud run and anthos and cloud code let developers focus just on code because that's what they want to do right I don't ever seen a developer say I really want to write a Yama file or I want to set up more configuration parameters right so I think we're gonna get to the place where you have developers being able to focus on cold and all of the rest of this being taken care of by platforms like code and run and anthos automation becomes key I mean Jennifer Lynn's demo I thought was very game-changing because she made the comment developers can focus on their code and agility not access permissions and all the configuration management that goes on under the you guys gonna provide that in an automatic programmable way we're gonna believe he is and she kind of teased out service missions so service missions kind of point in the future which is app developers are gonna still need to be aware of maybe not aware of what cloud run how to manage those sirs as they come stand up and get pulled down dynamically yeah how do you view that because this has become a gonna become complex is that gonna be automated is that where cloud run comes in you expand on this whole impact of service meshes because that's the next level that's right that's right so if you think about key native it's built on kubernetes and it forms the kind of triad with sto as well right and what a product like cloud run does is it lets you not have to think about that because at the end of the day we don't want developers to have to think about K native what cloud run is it takes care of the K native portability and compatibility for you and all you do is focus on the code itself right so ultimately we want developers to focus on their applications but I will say this right we do care about another important constituent which is all of those folks who've already got an apps built out there can those workloads be serviced as well and that's part of the problem we're trying to solve it that's an operational thing all right so let's take a step back here so server list actually fanfare has been great we're seeing a lot of traction people are enamored by it because functions as a service has been very compelling whether it's retail managing you know that spiked loads and becomes we see some some use cases where it's like you know really an amazing thing where is it limiting what is the next level growth for server list where do you see you mention workloads and we see people deploying functions and being happy with it are there limitations with serverless how does it go to the next level can you take a minute to describe the current state of server lists and what's coming around the corner now so great question the first thing I'll say is that there's a ton of developers who come up to us every day and tell us cloud functions is awesome right and they really like functions as a service they like the event-driven approach to it they like the service full approach but several is provides love the programming model that's great but there's an another large contingent of developers who tell us look this is super constraining for what I want to do I don't get to choose the libraries I want you're forcing me into a particular programming model can you give me more flexibility and what they see every day is the flexibility that containers provide especially on kubernetes right and what we've tried to do with cloud run is try to bridge those worlds where you get all of the flexibility that you want right that you get with containers but then combine it with what what you really want with the operational model which is service right so you pay only for what you use and of course you get the agility of service as well now one thing that we've noticed heard some great stories about this is a customer of ours Veolia which is one of the early adopters of cloud run and they've been partnering with us we thank them for it they are running a complex workload you talked about retail what Veolia does is they're large French multinational they do energy water and environmental services these are things that need to be highly reliable very complex and these are workloads that have existed for ages right and what viola is doing is using cloud run to run that complex workload but in a service in a service full way running in a service fashion all right take a minute explain what's a complex workload for your definition what is a simple workload because guys again we love functions Stu and I always talk about how great it is but what's that what's the D mark line when when does something become complex by your standards where you guys are addressing they could think describe the characteristics of a complex workload so the first thing is does the workload require flexibility right meaning are their custom workloads sometimes even legacies C++ or C applications do they need to pull that functionality in as well right do they need to pull random artifacts from across the enterprise to combine it and sometimes these are things that have been built over 20 years ago they're really critical mission critical pieces of software that need to be able to trigger and run right and can we actually take that flexibility but also combine in with a highly reliable environment right so were close like New Orleans there is no downtime right they need to be up 24 by 7 for 365 days of the year right so that flexibility plus that level of reliability is what we look at when we look at complexes so you're getting into complex systems where you got some code may be written in a mainframe COBOL in C++ we mentioned that was my jamm what kind of old dating myself but that was state-of-the-art back in the 90s so I'm running an agile job maybe of standing up cloud native but I need a use software and data from a system that's where is that where the container piece comes that ku burning it on either kubernetes but cloud run also supports docker so let's say you're running it in a docker container all you need is a docker container image and we can host that workload on program yeah Polly help us understand where where Google kind of what what's the same one what's different compared to the other service offerings out there just what I've heard feedback the last year or two is you know the great thing about server list is it's really easy to get started I've talked to marketing people that have no coding background that you know can get off and running it but doing complex mission-critical stuff yeah like we understand you know there is no magic wand NIT no silver bullet to make it easy but you know what do you see as Google's role in in this broader marketplace and you know where does open-source fit into that too yeah yeah so first I'll start off by saying there's a whole host of functions that are running on cloud functions which are relatively lightweight simple targeted event-driven functions those work great where we see us really making a difference for our customers is in two ways the first is get these more complex workloads that are currently running in a container whether it's a docker container our and or on gke for that matter and bring the agility of service to those workloads so it's the first thing it's something that we think is very unique because combining containers with serverless the second bit really is the open approach we've taken right built on top of K native key native as you know has a number of partners so one of the cool demos that you'll see during during Google Cloud next is you'll see a workload being shifted from cloud run on gke to the IBM cloud IBM is one of our partners 4k native without a single line of code and that flexibility is something that I think customers really decided talk about the business pen and some of the benefits at the business level in a developer level at the operations level can you hit those three points yeah of serverless silikal server less on those three sectors what's the benefits yep so we talked about the benefits for developers for developers it's simply about agility focus on your own code don't worry about Gamal don't worry about ki native you don't have to worry about any of that we'll take care of it for you the second benefit that I'll talk about is again this is just a benefit for the CIO which is hey we're gonna give you the flexibility and the openness so you can have portability of your workloads across whatever and why are you environment you want whether it's on tram or in a cloud whether it's Google or another cloud that's the second benefit the third bit is all of the operational benefits of service one of the things you'll see us do and continue to commit to do is we'll bill you to the hundredth of a millisecond right and so you'll continue to get that with all of the resiliency you expect of Google infrastructure security also pretty much baked in as well security is big then there's a fully managed offering from Google and so you'll get security compliance policies all Big Data of course we watched the keynote and we watch every word from Koreans giving Diane green a little tip of the hat which was nice signal a lot of class a great respect for that but jennifer lynn said something i want to get your reaction to she was kind of talking about her thing doing a great demo he changing and when she said this would allow you to negotiate better contracts okay that might have been a slip of the tongue your reaction that that implied to me I took that and say whoa that means leverage shifts to the customer your thoughts and that kind of maybe a slip of the tongue but if you're saying that I couldn't have options and choice yes Janice pardon this is what customers want and at Google what we're focused on is giving customers what they want and one of the things that customers are worried about today is lock-in and especially in the server this area because the current offerings are so proprietary customers are worried about it because they want server lists for all the benefits offers that we talked about here but they do want that flexibility and that's what we negotiate actually we know Oracle is very strict on their cloud this is going to give customers the choice is the saying that's whoa you want a license renewal yeah that's what you're getting out here so Polly you talked about choice and flexibility you know kubernetes gives some of that concern with serverless is if I look at a sure if I look at AWS if I look at Kay native you know those three aren't the same I talked there there's a small start-up called trigger mesh that's getting Kay native to work with AWS lambda but do you see a future is there you know I've talked to the CMC F I've looked at some of the various pieces that you know serverless isn't just something that I'm baked into a cloud yeah look I think we've seen extraordinary momentum around Kay native it's very similar to what we had seen when in the early days of kubernetes this huge amount of ecosystem interest and so we'll see continued innovation where you'll see work load portability come to service and I'm confident in that because of all of the momentum we were seeing around Canada so we're committed at Google to K native and its success so you'll see us continue to innovate yeah talk about open source open source becomes a very strategic part you can Shin kubernetes which you guys were the that have the DNA the founding fathers of kubernetes now teams on the team went to vmware someone have Microsoft some stay within Google containers certainly we see what you guys have done when four against four J but open source still this fear of open source I mean I don't mean it in a way that it's going to be inhibited and primitive but support making sure s LA's work latency microservice is going to be involved you mentioned k- yeah so as open source accelerates the time then value for the code that also triggers this op side of the serviceability and reliability and support what's your thoughts on that how are you guys how do you see the industry supporting that that critical piece of the puzzle yeah could not be more critical right for customers to be able to adopt this because the number one thing that we need to do for customers is give them a managed offering that lets them not have to worry about security lets them not have to worry about compliance lets them not have to worry about policies or identity etc right bake all of that into the managed service and then the second operational bit is which is as important this goes to what Thomas talked about at the very end of his keynote which is the open source announcement is we want to make it simple for customers to adopt it will be supported by Google and the partner you'll get unified billing unified support and one person to call when you have a problem yeah Polly we're at an interesting point in open source today because they're they want to get your opinion as a product person and your relationship with open source because you know there's a certain cloud out there it's they're gonna give you open source as a managed service but you have some of the companies that are making like open source databases changing their policies to try to fight against just being you know taken over by somehow the big players how does Google react to that yeah for us the approach is all about partnership because we think together we can better serve customers needs and best serve them and so our approach has always been about partnership so whether it's kubernetes or key native or the larger manage store manager open source offerings that we talked about earlier in the keynote we want to bring all of these together so we can serve customers so you're gonna see us continue to like support the open source equals because we believe that innovation is absolutely critical to helping our customers really start innovated in be agile final question I know we're tight on time I want to get this in because you know I see a lot of positive I've come out of the show there's been some critical analysis around you've got to build up salespeople and all the field stuff which is you guys are well aware of but one of the things that was kind of teased out in the open source announcement was the role of Google having their own ecosystem Asli the C & C has been a big tailwind for Google you guys been a big part of that ecosystem as a cloud commercial provider and with these kinds of server list you're going to have an ecosystem starting to develop kind of a thousand flowers blooming pun intended so how do you see that in your area because this is going to be super important partnering ecosystem support yeah which is you know developer traction distribution of software integration opportunities that's why in monetization all kind of come together your thoughts huge hugely critical for us and that's something that we've been focused on we have a rich ecosystem of partners for service we're gonna continue to build it out across all of the different pieces you need one of the things we didn't talk much about was our entire operational stack monitoring logging all of those pieces right we need to bring all of those together along with all of our partners we have a big partnership with the likes of data dog right number of others so we're gonna continue to partner with the entire ecosystem so we can go solve the problems that they have are you guys gonna show them the white space where they can play is gonna be part of the strategy yeah so it's gonna be across the board you'll see us continue to support the key native ecosystem tremendously and like lean into that and we're already excited to see all the different offerings that are exist on key native same thing with kubernetes we're gonna continue to like press hard we've got on the operational side we've got an offering called open census it's got lots of traction again just open monitoring of applications so we're gonna continue to do that across the board yeah probably great to have you on vice president of product and design got the keys to the kingdom right here he's the who's running the show for the server list really the key part of how kubernetes really intersects old and new to create the next generation applications thanks for joining us and sharing the insight I'm Jeff forest do many men here live coverage Google next more coverage after this short break

>> Live from Seattle, Washington, it's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon + CloudNativeCon North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Okay, welcome back everyone. We're live in Seattle. It's theCUBE's two, three days of coverage. We're on day two of KubeCon Cloud Native Conference. This is the rise of the Kubernetes, the Ecosystem behind, the CNCF, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation. I'm John Furrier, Cube host with Stu Miniman this week analyzing everything. Our next guest is Cheryl Hung, who's the director of the Ecosystem for the CNCF. Cheryl, great to have you back. We interviewed you in Copenhagen. Thanks for joining us again. >> Of course, I'm really happy to be back, really happy to see you again. >> So you got a new role. The last time we talked, you were working for, I think, storage-io-- >> StorageOS >> OS, StorageOS. Now you're full-time with the CNCF as the director of the ecosystem, which now is massively growing. What's going on? Tell us about your job and what you're working on. >> So the CNCF's overall mission is to support the development and the adoption of these open-source projects. And I really focus on the adoption side. So I really care about talking to end users and making sure that they can be successful and productive and happy as they transition to this new world of Cloud Native and Kubernetes and open-source infrastructure. So it's a massive change, you know, if you compare this to five or ten years ago, where we are now is so different, but it's really exciting to be apart of it. >> One of the interesting things I remember speaking with you about in Copenhagen, in Europe, at KubeCon there was, you have your background at Google. And so you're Cloud Native, the way you've been working at Google and then now out here. This whole world is moving that way. And the CNCF is end user driven and was really started by end user contributions and now they're all here. Now you have vendors coming in. So you have a dynamic ecosystem. You have contributors that are end users, vendors that are contributors, and now the consumption of Kubernetes and their related technology is growing. What's your take on it? What's the most important thing happening? What are you focused on, what's your focus? >> I think vendors do make a big contribution to the projects as well. I definitely want to recognize that vendors are part of our ecosystem as well. But I think it's really important that, you know, at the end of the day all of this good work is so end users can be successful with what they're doing. There's no point in building these projects if you don't take into account what the community needs out of it. So I've talked to a lot of companies now and there's three levels of engagement that I see about why they want to join this Cloud Native world. One is that they have some concrete technical problems that just need to be solved as soon as possible and they need to think about the best way to do it. The second is around building engineering organizations that can handle this new culture where you're not talking to a vendor who can give you six months of products roadmap in advance. You have to interact with open source communities directly. And in the third is technical executives who really want to put all of their business strategy behind Cloud Native and Kubernetes. And they're really fully invested in to making sure that this community succeeds because it ensures that they will succeed as well. >> And in the end users also we see a lot of recruiting here as well as contributing. This is a number one demand that we certainly see from the Kube's content side of the house here, is that there's demand and a thirst for educational content, for how-to's, the role of a cloud architect now is becoming a clear persona in enterprises. You got an IT impact, you got developer impact, you got open-source, kind of all coming together. Where is the action for the end user right now? If you look at the trends, obviously Kubernetes stability and naturalization is key. Is DOCB's hot? What are the kinds of things that are merging up for end users that you see a demand for feature wise and or just general trend? >> Lots of end users just actually want the CNCF to just tell them, do it this way, and the CNCF is not like that. We're very neutral, we want companies to choose the best things for themselves. So were not going to go out there and say this product over this product or this vendor over this vendor. What we do try to do is create a community where companies can talk to other companies who are trying to solve the same problems. Because that's what community is. Let's do this collaboratively, let's do it out in the open so we're not all trying to solve the same problems over and over and over again. But right now I see a lot of questions about how do you work in more mature, not more mature, but say the finance industry, or how do you work in heavily regulated environments where you have to do a lot of compliance. And also, how do you deal with this explosion of tooling, we all kind of agree that Kubernetes is the way to go, but now there's another 500 tools that you could evaluate out there. What's the best way to figure out the path through that for your company. >> Let the community guide that too, let that be the part of the process, the community really is the driver. >> Cheryl, I'm wondering how you bake that into the show itself as well as the community, are there vertical places that I've got a select channel, or I've got a community group that I can participate with. We know the whole way track is really bumping at a show like this. There's all of the project specific stuff, but how is it that I have that paradox of choice and there's so many different ways I can do it. I bet it would be tough for us to find two companies that have chosen all of the pieces and deploited in a similar enough way, so how do you sort through that? >> It's something that I'm thinking about a lot for the next KubeCon where I hope I see you in Barcelona. Or perhaps the San Diego one after that, it's hard to make sure that there is a place where end users actually come together and do that face to face interaction with each other. So the moment, especially KubeCon is now 8010-D's. It's insane, but now you have to have a more structured place where people can find each other. >> So you talk to a lot of customers that knew you moderate panels with customers. Where are they today? I've talked to some people that were like, "There's 8,000 people here?" And half of them are really new to Kubernetes and need some of just the one on one stuff. As opposed to last year, a lot of the users I talked to were like, "Oh I'm just pulling down the stuff and I'm building all my components and I'm contributing." So we have such a big spectrum. What are some of the big issues you're hearing from customers to help them move forward? >> So, Separate from, I'll come back to this in a second, even before I joined the CNCF, I ran the, and I still run, the Cloud Native London meetup group. Which gets about two to three hundred attendees each month. So obviously not the size of this, but a fairly healthy size for a community. And people will ask, I thought about, should we just focus on a particular segment, like the people who are just getting started, or the people who were actively contributing. And I actually think it's okay to have a place where you can have that mix of levels. And I think it's really important that the more experienced, or people who are further along in their journey have a chance to talk to people who are at the beginning, kind of mentor them through it. But at the same time, we want to do things. So I'll give you a little teaser for next year, we're planning to run smaller, local, more regional events for places that don't necessarily have the ability to come to these huge, giant conferences, and want to talk to each other in a single day, single track small, intimate place. >> More community events where people can participate, not feel remote. I mean, you guys what on the wait list, like 1500 people on the waiting list here. >> For this event? >> For this event, It's demand. >> There's tons of demand, like this is my secret thought, if in time we get to huge, huge sizes, I think we should get a cruise ship, put everyone on a cruise ship for three days, and just be like, "Let's go and sell together and be apart of that". >> We're seeing a lot of cruises on the cryptography site, ICO's, and bunch of the big coiners went, watching their prices go down. But you guys could literally fill a ship. >> Yes, seriously, the pace that KubeCon is growing, it's getting hard to find a place that can hold this many people. >> Community is super important to you guys and we know that, we've been watching it from the beginning. It's really, I don't want to say sacred, but it's really a key nurturing point. What's the vision for enabling the community? Obviously regional events would create sub network in the community, allow for some interaction face to face and contribution wise. What else are you guys doing on the community side that's interesting, that's important, that people should know about? >> So I've spent quite a bit of time thinking about this and talking to a lot of companies and I really think there is no substitution for the face to face stuff, at least initially. There's a lot of online that you can get involved with now, through the mailing lists and Slack and GitHub and all these things. But I really think that if you don't know somebody who's already part of the community, it can be quite hard to know where to even begin. It can feel feel a bit overwhelming, just how to stay on top of it all. So I would really like to establish more places where people feel like they can talk to their peers and feel comfortable and not feel like they're being sold to from vendors or being-- >> genuine, authentic basically, a place where it's not going to be a sales pitch, they can dig in and learn. >> Yeah, exactly. I think It's really important to hold onto the technical quality, and the excellence of what the CNCF provides as well. Without that, everything else, I love this community stuff, it's fantastic, it's really good fun, but it comes down to the technical, this is actually sold for technical and business problem. >> Yeah, great social component, but you got to keep your eye on the prize, get the code out there. >> Yeah, I mean, it's not to say that code is the only thing that matters, but we want to make sure that, people come to, you know, how many people here today are spending three days of their lives with us because they get actual value out of what's happening here. And as long as people keep coming, that shows that there is value there. >> And then the success of the ecosystem, we want to look back and see, these were startups, these are ecosystem partners, big, small medium, and large, they've been successful. That success outcome is really key to what you're working on. Making that successful, it's hard. You guys are growing so fast, give it peek behind the curtain, but CNCF, you went from 4,000 people, I know the thing was just in China, which is exploding with growth, in China, open-source contribution and consumption, you got that exploding. You got the event, 8,000 people. Is the team busting out at the seams right now? I mean, share some inside baseball around, what's going on inside the CNCF, are you guys running hot? What's it like? >> It's crazy, right? Nobody could've predicted how fast this has all grown. And the team is, so the reason I joined the CNCF is because, number one, the growth is there, but number two, I really think the team have really good intentions. And even though there's a lot of work to be done, I think people really have their heart in the right place and are trying to do the right thing for the community. And China is definitely an area that we're investing in on a personal level. I'm taking Mandarin classes to try and improve my Mandarin so that we can, I can actually go to China and make sure that these companies are part of this as well. There are so many things in China that are really advanced and mature, but really sophisticated Kubernetes. But it's so separate from, I feel like it's very separate from the stuff that we see in North America. So China is definitely an area that I'm looking out for. But in terms of the team, I think that we want to do a lot, but at the same time, the CNCF is never going to be like, a thousand person organization, let's talk again in 50 years time and maybe it will be a huge organization. But at the moment, I don't believe the CNCF is going to be a huge organization. So we do rely very heavily on our volunteers, our community, the good will of partners, exactly. >> Well we really appreciate the support of CNCF. Dan has been fantastic to work with We've seen the vision from day one, we saw him in China at Alibaba event last year. We saw the work you guys are doing. You're doing the work and it shows. So congratulations and good luck on your new assignment and-- >> Thank you. Dan is my boss and he's always been incredibly optimistic and energetic and has so much belief in what we're doing. >> He's smart, he gets it-- >> He's very smart. >> He's agile, bring a little DevOps, agility, to the table, right? (chuckles) You know. >> Exactly, you know, he's great, and Chris as well is a super community minded and thinking. >> You guys got a great team. Congratulations and thanks for coming on and sharing your insight-- >> Thank you-- >> Into the CNCF ecosystem. The ecosystem, the open source communities, is the key persona, the key target, but this is impacting IT and developers. This is why Kubernetes is rising, you're seeing real impact with Cloud computing, Cloud scale, Cloud Native, it's a really interesting time and this is proof of the ecosystem. We're here in the Kube coverage here in Seattle. I'm John Furrier and stay with us for more coverage after this short break.

>> Live, from London, England, it's theCUBE covering .NEXT Conference Europe 2018! Brought to you buy Nutanix. >> Good morning from London, England. I'm Stu Miniman with my co-host Joep Piscaer, and you're watching theCUBE's two day coverage of Nutanix .NEXT 2018 here at the ExCel Center. Welcome to our program. Joep and I are gonna spend a couple minutes giving our thoughts on Nutanix, what's happened in ecosystems, what we're hearing from the customers. So Joep, 3,500 people here, I think back two years ago when they held the first show in Europe in Vienna, you and I talked there, it was a much smaller show. Nutanix is growing some strong momentum here. Generally as you say at these kind of shows, you usually have the true believers, but it is nice to see that a company, Nutanix, now nine years old, you know their customers seem pretty passionate. That they love what it does for them, different careers. One of the executives, it was Sunil up on stage yesterday, said, "Hey, you might not get fired for buying "an IBM or VMware, but you get promoted for buying Nutanix." So what's your impressions, tell me what you're hearing from your peers and compatriots at the event. >> So, what I'm seeing around me here is the buzz is definitely much bigger than a couple of years ago. The show's bigger, it seems to attract more customers from all over, small companies, big companies, so seeing that buzz, compared to a couple of years ago kind of proves that Nutanix has a place in the industry and that their products are gaining traction with customers. And looking at the keynotes from yesterday and today, I see a lot of announcements, a see a lot of work not just in the products customers are using now, but also kind of in a forward looking, we wanna go here fashion. And that's exciting to me, because Nutanix is growing beyond just a core infrastructure company. They are building a portfolio, they're building a platform. And I think, from what I've been hearing from customers, it does have traction. Customers like the direction Nutanix is going, but I can't help but wonder how many customers are already using these services or planning to use these in the near future. >> Yeah, and one of things I look at, and I think I've seen good progress here, this isn't just taking the US show and shipping it over to Europe. Nutanix has many years of doing road shows, it's the .NEXT on the road, things like that. In the keynotes, we're seeing European, not in just European customers, but that the demo this morning was senior SE, Nutanix woman from Spain and you see culture when I walk around the show floor, I know a lot of the vendors here and it is their European presence and hear good proof points of what they're doing. I mean, you're from here in Europe. What do you hear and see? >> Yes, I agree, this is not just a carbon copy of the US show, it has its own identity, it attracts its own customers, its own partners. Walking around the show floor, I do see a lot of customers that I recognize. I do see a lot of partners from the Netherlands or from Europe that I recognize, that I work with. So seeing all that attention from the crowd, that helps, and seeing Nutanix as a company, not just US based, but focusing on Europe as well. >> Yeah, wanna get your opinion. How's Nutanix doing on painting their vision? I think back to early days, Dheeraj and the team have a clear direction as to where they want to take things and I think they do a good job of focusing on the customer and laying out a vision without getting too far over their skis. Today, I'd look at it, most customers today, they're really using, I'm using HCI probably for more than just VDI and starting to spread out, but when you start talking about from the core to the essentials, to the enterprise, some of that is mostly customers aren't ready, but they need to be hearing a lot of these things. What's your take, what's some of your takeaways so far? >> So I think you've said it exactly right. So, even though customers are only using core products, mainly, it does help that Nutanix is laying down this vision of next steps for customers because even though you could say infrastructure's a commodity and the cloud is overruling on-prem installations, it's still customers are struggling to go from their current, on-prem, three tier virtualization layer up to an application focus in the cloud. And Nutanix telling that story, Nutanix telling, okay, this should be the next step, after that, you can do this. That helps to guide customers to not only where Nutanix wants the customer to go, obviously, but also from that customer centric perspective, helping customers navigating that difficult swamp of the next step of cloud, of applications, and moving from an infrastructure focus to that application focus. >> Yeah, look, there's a mental map I use for when I look at this. I kind of say that the world of the future is definitely, I prefer the term multi-cloud, but that definitely includes my own data centers or service provider data centers where I manage more of it. Let's call that the private piece of the hybrid and public cloud, and then of course, there's a lot of SAS in there. And when I put a company in there and say, okay, did they lean a little bit too far? Of course, Amazon, very heavily towards the public cloud, but we saw an announcement, AWS Outpost, where they're saying, hey, they're going deeper with VMware and also with their own stack to be able to go the private. Take a company like Dell who leans very heavily towards private, they have VMware and Pivotal to help get them a little bit more to public. VMware going deeper into public. Nutanix definitely leans a little bit towards private, but they're doing enough in the public cloud, they're making partnerships. I actually like the messaging I heard on Cloud Native this morning, saying that look, this is just like cloud is mostly an operational model and sure there's a lot of great innovation in the public cloud, but Cloud Native doesn't mean I built it in the cloud, it milked it. It's microservices and containerization and all those things, even serverless. We can debate whether that can only be in the public cloud. So, the hybrid message, I'd like to see a little bit more clarity from Nutanix as to where that has, and definitely feedback I've gotten from customers, but for the most part, I think they're doing a solid job. >> I agree, so, I think it's a matter of perspective, right? Where are your roots, where do you come from? So for VMware, for Nutanix, it makes the most sense to go from on-prem into cloud, into SAS, whereas Amazon was born in the cloud. They attract developers, they attract application builders, website builders, and so they have the different perspective, right? So they are now realizing, okay, on-prem has a place too. And so the difference is it's just a matter of perspective and what type of customers are you serving? So VMware and Nutanix are serving the enterprise customer that has big legacy roots in the data center, and they're helping those customers move towards the public cloud. But the other way around is just as valid, because there are so many companies that built an e-com solution on the public cloud and are moving back to on-prem for cost reasons, for security reasons, whichever reason is there for a customer. But both perspective make total sense to me. And if you compare Outpost to the work Nutanix is now doing with Carbon, technologically it isn't all that different, but I think it's a matter of perspective which customers are we helping in which way. >> Yeah, you've actually, I'll put a fine point on this. When I looked back to the early days of Nutanix, what their mission was is they took hyperscale, what the really big guys were doing, and they were going to bring that to the enterprise. They've done a great job of packaging that. Early days, we talked about the hyperscale companies really can put in a lot of high value resources to build what they need. The enterprise doesn't have a big team of Ph.D.'s to throw at things, they don't have the amount of resources, so they will spend money to buy what they have. So that's what Nutanix has done, they've got great things to show for it, public company, over seven billion dollars of market cap, so they can grow that. They've met the customs where they are and definitely are a trusted partner to help bring them towards what Nutanix calls the enterprise cloud, what most of us call that multi-cloud or hybrid cloud world. Alright, Joep, thank you so much for helping us dig in with some of the analysis. Be sure to stay with us for a full day, second day, of coverage. As always, turn to theCUBE.net for all the interviews. I'm Stu Miniman and thank you for watching theCUBE. (techno music) (relaxing music)

(bright, peppy music) >> Announcer: From Chicago, it's theCUBE. Covering Veritas Vision Solution Day 2018. Brought to you by Veritas. >> Hello everyone, welcome to Chicago. We're here covering the Veritas Solution Day. Veritas, last year, had the Veritas Vision Conference and they brought together all their customers. This year they decided to go around the world, I think they have six or seven of these across the globe. And we just were in New York a few weeks ago at Tavern on the Green. We're here at the Palmer House in Chicago. Iconic hotel. About 60 to 70 customers here. Of course Chicago's a big opportunity for companies like Veritas because there's such a good customer base here. But what I want to do now is set up what's going on in the data protection business. According to a number of sources, Gartner, IDC Data, other survey data, certainly anecdotally when we talk to customers, about half of the customers that we talk to are going to replace their data protection platform within the next five years. Why is that? Well, there are a number of factors that are affecting that and I want to talk about the reasons why, the implications to the market, and what that means for customers. So if you look back 10 years ago, there was a similar dynamic going on catalyzed by the ascendancy of virtualization. What was happening is that you had all these servers that were underutilized and so the brilliance of virtualization was we're going to consolidate those servers, virtualize the compute power, dramatically increase the utilization and reduce the physical capacity that's on the floor. So you can get rid of stuff. Get rid of servers, spend less, and get more value out of that asset. Because you had all these underutilized hardware assets. Data protection backup in particular was the one workload that actually could use all that compute power. Why, because at the end of the day, you're backing up this huge stream of data. And so as a result, when you had to do a full backup, you didn't have the physical resources. So people had to rethink how they architected backup because of virtualization. So you now have a similar dynamic, but for different reasons. Some of the big trends that are going on here. The first one is of course digital. So digital means data and it's all about how you get value out of your data because data is increasingly an important asset. People are realizing that protecting that data is more and more important. As a result, people are rethinking just the definition of recovery. Recovery has to be faster, you've got to be always on in this digital world. So digital transformation is critical. You can't just bolt on backup as you have for the last 20, 30, 40 years really. Backup has been a bolt on. You've also got cloud. Everybody wants cloud-like. So you're seeing a shift from improving or dealing with resource utilization and allocation, as I explained in the virtualization world, now to automation. Why automation? Because people want a cloud-like experience. They realize they can't just shove all their data into the public cloud. There's data all over the place, and I'll talk about that in a moment in terms of distributed data, but specifically people want a cloud-like experience. What does that mean? That means they want pay-as-you-go, they want simple deployment, they want fast seamless recovery, and they want a lot of automation. While the price of technology comes down year after year, the price of people doesn't. And you can't just keep throwing people at the infrastructure problem, because it's so complex, you have to automate. And you want to shift resources toward higher value activities. Digital transformation, dev opps, application development. So this distributed data world, this multi-cloud world, and I'll talk a little bit more about that in a moment when I discuss the Edge, it's becoming a forcing function. Multi-cloud is a forcing function to rethink your backup. Because you've got different infrastructures, a service providers, you've got SAS providers, you've got all kinds of clouds that are popping up all over the lines of business and within your own data centers. As a result, you need to think about how do I catalog all that data, how do I protect that data, how do I govern that data, how do I deal with things like GDPR and make sure that I'm in compliance. So it becomes a much more complicated equation, and the variables are distinct. For example, I don't really understand what point in time means anymore. If you have distributed data, what does it mean to have a point in time copy? Point in what time? Who's the master? So you need some kind of controls in that multi-cloud world. That's a forcing function to rethink your backup. The other thing is platform. Platform beats products. I'll talk about that in a moment. People for years have looked at backup as purely insurance. Everybody hates buying insurance, we all know that, so you're seeing people trying to get more out of their backup and recovery platforms. For instance, integrating disaster recovery. So that's becoming an integral part of people's strategies. You're also seeing analytics becoming more and more important. People are trying to, because all the data sits in the corpus of the backup, people are saying why don't we analyze that data and get more out of it. Why don't we take snapshots of that data and make it available to dev opps. And what about ransomware, which again I'll talk about in a moment. Could I maybe look at anomalies in that data to determine if there are some problems. Many, many use cases emerging. Data classification, governance, I mentioned GDPR before, so you're seeing backup shift from pure insurance to a higher value business opportunity. And then of course, there's security, there's compliance, there's governance, ransomware is critical. Organizations are creating air gaps, meaning disconnecting from the internet, so that if they get hit with a ransomware attack they can isolate their data, but just even that is not enough. People can get through air gaps by physically putting in, whatever. Sticks or malware et cetera. So you still have to be able to use analytics to look at that corpus of backup data and identify anomalies. But again, because of those security risks and because of the importance of digital transformation and data people are rethinking how they do data protection. And finally, there's the Edge. We are living in a distributed world, it's a multi-cloud world, as I said before it's a forcing function, and the Edge is one of those clouds, if you will, which changes the way in which you think about backup. How does it change. Locality of the recovery data. If you've got Edge data, if you've got multi-cloud, you've, as I said before, got to have a global catalog and recover that data locally. Another thing to think about is SLAs. In a cloud world, you, the customer, are responsible for the recovery. Well, the cloud vendor can get the light back on on the disc system, or the computer, or the compute system, you are responsible for the people and the process to recover your business. That is not the cloud vendor's responsibility so you need to think about that. And think about recovery as recovery at the business level, not just recovery of the data, but recovery, getting your business back online. There's also the three laws of the cloud. We learned this from Pat Gelsinger this August at VMworld. The laws of physics, the laws of economics, and the law of the land. Those will dictate where you put data and how you back up that data. So all of this has created a new landscape in the data protection business. Let's run down that landscape. Who are the leaders. You've got Dell EMC, you've got Veritas, you've got Convault, and you've got IBM. Those guys comprise probably 2/3 or more of the marketplace. And you have startups like Cohesity and Rubrik who have raised hundreds of millions of dollars going after them and challenging them. You've got a whole new set of players that are taking new approaches. Actifio, for example, got the whole copy data management thing going. Datrium is creating end to end, both primary storage and data protection backup in the same platform with a software-based cloud-like, SAS-like offering. You've got companies like Zerto and Imanis Data that are specialists. You've got companies like WANdisco, again, taking new approaches. And then you have Oracle, with the Oracle recovery appliance, which is totally changing the way in which backup worked for Oracle databases exclusively. Taking a database-led approach to backup. And then of course you've got the storage players that are part of the ecosystem even though they're not directly competing with backup software vendors. Guys like Pure, NetApp, InfiniteApp. They're partnering with backup vendors. And then of course, there's the cloud guys. AWS, Azure, Google. The thing to think about as customers, really three things. Platform versus product. What's the platform look like? Is it an API-based platform? Because you want to program to that platform infrastructurer's code, you want to support your dev opps infrastructure. The second is cloud-like pricing, and cloud-like deployment. You want a cloud-based operating model to simplify your operations and lower your IT labor costs and shift those costs to more strategic efforts and initiatives such as digital transformation and application development. And the third is ecosystem alignment. Make sure that your backup software vendor and you backup solution vendors are all, their ecosystem is aligned with your ecosystem. Because you're going to get more facile integration and problem-solving and flexibility if those systems align. So take a look at that as well. Couple of things I want to mention and emphasize. New application development models. Cloud Native, Kubernetes. Function, you know people call it server-less, but function-based programming. Really to support dev opps and infrastructure as a code. That is going to have implications on how you protect data. And finally AI. How can you talk about anything today without talking about AI. Anticipatory staging of data for recovery, as in the example. Predicting where problems are going to occur. Machine intelligence will increasingly play a role in this whole landscape. So, as you can see, there's a lot going on. This is why data protection is such a hot space. That's why the VCs are getting in. It's why the incumbents like Veritas, Dell EMC, IBM, Convault, those that I mentioned are trying to re-platform and hang on to their large install bases and ultimately grow them. And it's why companies in the startup and the niche spaces, are tucking in and identifying new opportunities to participate. So that's a quick overview of what's going on here at the Veritas Vision Solution Day from Chicago. We'll be here all day talking to customers, talking to practitioners, technologists, and executives. So keep it right there, you're watching theCUBE. I'm Dave Vellante. Be right back. (bright music)

>> Announcer: From Copenhagen, Denmark, it's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Hello and welcome back to the live CUBE coverage here in Copenhagen, Denmark, for KubeCon 2018, Kubernetes European conference. This is theCUBE, I'm John Furrier, my co-host Lauren Cooney here with Adrian Cockcroft who is the Vice President of Cloud Architecture and Strategy for Amazon Web Services, AWS. CUBE alumni, great to see you, a legend in the industry, great to have you on board today. Thanks for coming on. >> Thanks very much. >> Quick update, Amazon, we were at AWS Summit recently, I was at re:Invent last year, it gets bigger and bigger just continue to grow. Congratulations on successful great earnings. You guys posted last week, just continuing to show the scale and leverage that the cloud has. So, again, nothing really new here, cloud is winning and the model of choice. So you guys are doing a great job, so congratulations. Open source, you're handling a lot of that now. This community here, is all about driving cloud standards. >> Adrian: Yeah. >> Your guys position on that is? Standards are great, you do what customers want, as Andy Jassy always says, what's the update? I mean, what's new since Austin last year? >> Yeah, well, it's been great to be back on had a great video of us talking at Austin, it's been very helpful to get the message out of what we're doing in containers and what the open source team that I lead has been up to. It's been very nice. Since then we've done quite a lot. We were talking about doing things then, which we've now actually done and delivered on. We're getting closer to getting our Kubernetes service out, EKS. We hired Bob Wise, he started with us in January, he's the general manager of EKS. Some of you may know Bob has been working with Kubernetes since the early days. He was on the CNCF board before he joined us. He's working very hard, they have a team cranking away on all the things we need to do to get the EKS service out. So that's been major focus, just get it out. We have a lot of people signed up for the preview. Huge interest, we're onboarding a lot of people every week, and we're getting good feedback from people. We have demos of it in the booth here this week. >> So you guys are very customer-centric, following you guys closely as you know. What's the feedback that you're hearing and what are you guys ingesting from an intelligence standpoint from the field. Obviously, a new constituent, not new, but a major constituent is open source communities, as well as paying enterprise customers? What's the feedback? What are you hearing? I would say beyond tire kicking, there's general interest in what Kubernetes has enabled. What's Amazon's view of that? >> Yeah, well, open source in general is always getting a larger slice of what people want to do. Generally, people are trying to get off of their enterprise solutions and evolving into an open source space and then you kind of evolve from that into buying it as a service. So that's kind of the evolution from one trend, custom or enterprise software, to open source to as a service. And we're standing up all of these tools as a service to make them easier to consume for people. Just, everybody's happy to do that. What I'm hearing from customers is that that's what they're looking for. They want it to be easy to use, they want it to scale, they want it to be reliable and work, and that's what we're good at doing. And then they want to track the latest moves in the industry and run with the latest technologies and that's what Kubernetes and the CNCF is doing, gathering together a lot of technologies. Building the community around it, just able to move faster than we'd move on our own. We're leveraging all of those things into what we're doing. >> And the status of EKS right now is in preview? And the estimated timetable for GA? >> In the next few months. >> Next few months. >> You know, get it out then right now it's running in Oregon, in our Oregon data center, so the previews are all happening there. That gets us our initial thing and then everyone go okay, we want to in our other regions, so we have to do that. So another service we have is Fargate, which is basically say just here's a container, I want to run it, you don't have to declare a node or an instance to run it first. We launched that at re:Invent, that's already in production obviously, we just rolled that out to four regions. That's in Virginia, Oregon, Dublin and Ohio right now. A huge interest in Fargate, it lets you simplify your deployments a little bit. We just posted a new blog post that we have an open source blog, you can find if you want to keep up with what's going on with the open source team at AWS. Just another post this morning and it's a first pass at getting Fargate to work with Kubernetes using Virtual Kubelet which is a project that was kicked off by, it's an experimental project, not part of the core Kubernetes system. But it's running on the side. It's something that Microsoft came up with a little while ago. So we now have, we're working with them. We did a pull request, they accepted it, so that team and AWS and a few other customers and other people in the community, working together to provide you a way to start up Fargate as the underlying layer for provisioning containers underneath Kubernetes as the API for doing you know the management of that. >> So who do you work with mostly when you're working in open source? Who do you partner with? What communities are you engaging with in particular? >> It's all over. >> All over? >> Wherever the communities are we're engaging with them. >> Lauren: Okay, any particular ones that stand out? >> Other than CNCF, we have a lot of engagement with Apache Hadoop ecosystem. A lot of work in data science, there's many, many projects in that space. In AI and machine learning, we've sponsored, we've spend a lot of time working with Apache MXNet, we were also working off with TensorFlow by Torch and Caffe and there's a lot, those are all open source frameworks so there's lots of contributions there. In the serverless arena, we have our own SAM service application model. We've been open sourcing more of that recently ourselves and we're working with various other people. Across these different groups there's different conferences you go to, there's different things we do. We just sponsored Rails Conference. My team sponsors and manages most of the open source conference events we go to now. We just did RAILCON, we're doing a Rust conference, soon I think, there's Python conferences. I forget when all these are. There's a massive calendar of conferences that we're supporting. >> Make sure you email us that that list, we're interested actually in looking at what the news and action is. >> So the language ones, AltCon's our flagship one, we'll be top-level sponsor there. When we get to the U.S., CubeCon in Seattle, it's right there, it's two weeks after re:Invent. It's going to be much easier to manage. When we go to re:Invent it's like everyone just wants to take that week off, right. We got a week for everyone to recover and then it's in the hometown. >> You still have that look in your eyes when we interviewed you in Austin you came down, we both were pretty exhausted after re:Invent. >> Yeah, so we announced a bunch of things on Wednesday and Thursday and I had to turn it into a keynote by Tuesday and get everyone to agree. That's what was going on, that was very compressed. We have more time and all of the engineering teams that really want to be at an event like this, were right in the hometown for a lot. >> What's it like workin' at Amazon, I got to ask you it since you brought it up. I mean and you guys run hard at Amazon, you're releasing stuff with a pace that's unbelievable. I mean, I get blown away every year. Almost seems like, inhuman that that you guys can run at that pace. And earnings, obviously, the business results speak for themselves, what's it like there? I mean, you put your running shoes on, you run a marathon every day. >> It's lots of small teams working relatively independently and that scales and that's something other engineering organizations have trouble with. They build hierarchies that slow down. We have a really good engineering culture where every time you start a new team, it runs at its own speed. We've shown that as we add more and more resources, more teams, they are just executing. In fact, their accelerated, they're building on top of other things. We get to build higher and higher level abstractions to layer into. Just getting easier and easier to build things. We're accelerating our pace of innovation there's no slowing down. >> I was telling Jassy they're going to write a Harvard Business School case study on a lot of the management practices, but certainly the impact on the business side with the model that you guys do. But I got to ask you, on the momentum side, super impressed with SageMaker. I predicted on theCUBE at AWS Summit that that will be the fastest growing service. It will overtake Aurora, I think that is currently on stage, presented as the fastest growing service. SageMaker is really popular. Updates there, its role in the community. Obviously, Kubernete's a good fit for orchestrating things. We heard about CubeFlow, is an interesting model. What's going on with SageMaker how is it interplaying with Kubernetes? >> People that want to run, if you're running on-premise, cluster of GPU enabled machines then CubeFlow is a great way of doing that. You're on TensorFlow, that manages your cluster, you run CubeFlow on top. SageMaker is running at very low scale and like a lot of things we do at AWS, what you need to run an individual cluster for any one customer is different from running a multi-tenant service. SageMaker sits on top of ECS and it's now one of the largest generators of traffic to ECS which is Amazon's horizontally scaled, multi-tenant, cluster management system, which is now doing hundreds of millions of container launches a week. That is continuing to grow. We see Kubernetes as it's a more portable abstraction. It has some more, different layers of API's and a big community around it. But for the heavy lifting of running tens of thousands of containers in for a single application, we're still at the level where ECS does that every day and Kubernetes that's kind of the extreme case, where a few people are pushing it. It'll gradually grow scale. >> It's evolution. >> There's an evolution here. But the interesting things are, we're starting to get some convergence on some of the interfaces. Like the interfacing at CNA, CNA is the way you do networking on containers and there is one way of doing that, that is shared by everybody through CNA. EKS uses it, BCS uses it and Kubernetes uses it. >> And the impact of customers is what for that? What's the impact? >> It means the networking structures you want to set up will be the same. And the capabilities and the interfaces. But what happens on AWS is because it has a direct plug-in, you can hook it up to our accelerated networking infrastructure. So, AWS's instances right now, we've offloaded most of the network traffic processing. You're running 25 gigabits of traffic, that's quite a lot of work even for a big CPU, but it's handled by the the Nitro plug-in architecture we have, this in our latest instance type. So if you talked a bit about that at re:Invent but what you're getting is enormous, complete hypervisor offload at the core machine level. You get to use that accelerated networking. You're plugging into that interface. But that, if you want to have a huge number of containers on a machine and you're not really trying to drive very high throughput, then you can use Calico and we support that as well. So, multiple different ways but all through the same thing, the same plug-ins on both. >> System portability. You mentioned some stats, what's the numbers you mentioned? How many containers you're launching a week, hundreds of thousands? On ECS, our container platform that's been out for a few years, so hundreds of millions a week. It's really growing very fast. The containers are taking off everywhere. >> Microservices growth is, again that's the architecture. As architecture is a big part of the conversation what's your dialogue with customers? Because the modern software architecture in cloud, looks a lot different than what it was in the three layered approach that used to be the web stack. >> Yeah, and I think to add to that, you know we were just talking to folks about how in large enterprise organizations, you're still finding groups that do waterfall development. How are you working to kind of bring these customers and these developers into the future, per se? >> Yeah, that's actually, I spend about half my time managing the open source team and recruiting. The other half is talking to customers about this topic. I spend my time traveling around the world, talking at summits and events like this and meeting with customers. There's lots of different problems slowing people down. I think you see three phases of adoption of cloud, in general. One is just speed. I want to get something done quickly, I have a business need, I want to do it. I want machines in minutes instead of months, right, and that speeds everything up so you get something done quickly. The second phase is where you're starting to do stuff at scale and that's where you need cloud native. You really need to have elastic services, you can scale down as well as up, otherwise, you just end up with a lot of idle machines that cost you too much and it's not giving you the flexibility. The third phase we're getting into is complete data center shutdown. If you look at investing in a new data center or data center refresh or just opening an AWS account, it really doesn't make sense nowadays. We're seeing lots of large enterprises either considering it or well into it. Some are a long way into this. When you shut down the data center all of the backend core infrastructure starts coming out. So we're starting to see sort of mainframe replacement and the really critical business systems being replaced. Those are the interesting conversations, that's one of the areas that I'm particularly interested in right now and it's leading into this other buzzword, if you like, called chaos engineering. Which is sort of the, think of it as the availability model for cloud native and microservices. We're just starting a working group at CNCF around chaos engineering, is being started this week. So you can get a bit involved in how we can build some standards. >> That's going to be at Stanford? >> It's here, I mean it's a working group. >> Okay, online. >> The CNCF working group, they are wherever the people are, right. >> So, what is that conversation when you talk about that mainframe kind of conversation or shut down data centers to the cloud. What is the key thing that you promote, up front, that needs to get done by the by the customer? I mean, obviously you have the pillars, the key pillars, but you think about microservices it's a global platform, it's not a lift and shift situation, kind of is, it shut down, but I mean not at that scale. But, security, identity, authentication, there's no perimeter so you know microservices, potentially going to scale. What are the things that you promote upfront, that they have to do up front. What are the up front, table stake decisions? >> For management level, the real problem is people problems. And it's a technology problem somewhere down in the weeds. Really, if you don't get the people structures right then you'll spend forever going through these migrations. So if you sort of bite the bullet and do the reorganization that's needed first and get the right people in the right place, then you move much faster through it. I say a lot of the time, we're way upstream of picking a technology, it's much more about understanding the sort of DevOps, Agile and the organizational structures for these more cellular based organizations, you know, AWS is a great example of that. Netflix are another good example of that. Capital One is becoming a good example of that too. In banking, they're going much faster because they've already gone through that. >> So they're taking the Amazon model, small teams. Is that your general recommendation? What's your general recommendation? >> Well, this is the whole point of microservices, is that they're built by these small teams. It's called Conway's law, which says that the code will end up looking like the team, the org structure that built it. So, if you set up a lots of small teams, you will end up with microservices. That's just the way it works, right. If you try to take your existing siloed architecture with your long waterfall things, it's very hard not to build a monolith. Getting the org structure done first is right. Then we get into kind of the landing zone thing. You could spend years just debating what your architecture should be and some people have and then every year they come back, and it's changing faster than they can decide what to do. That's another kind of like analysis paralysis mode you see some larger enterprises in. I always think just do it. What's the standard best practice, layout my accounts like this, my networks like this, my structures we call it landing zone. We get somebody up to speed incredibly quickly and it's the beaten path. We're starting to build automation around these on boarding things, we're just getting stuff going. >> That's great. >> Yeah, and then going back to the sort of chaos engineering kind of idea, one of the first things I should think you should put into this infrastructure is the disaster recovery automation. Because if that gets there before the apps do, then the apps learn to live with the chaos monkeys and things like that. Really, one of the first apps we installed at Netflix was Chaos Monkey. It wasn't added later, it was there when you arrived. Your app had to survive the chaos that was in the system. So, think of that as, it used to be disaster recovery was incredibly expensive, hard to build, custom and very difficult to test. People very rarely run through their disaster recovery testing data center fail over, but if you build it in on day one, you can build it automated. I think Kubernetes is particularly interesting because the API's to do that automation are there. So we're looking at automating injecting failure at the Kubernetes level and also injecting into the underlying machines that are running Good Maze, like attacking the control plane to make sure that the control plane recovery works. I think there's a lot we can do there to automate it and make it into a low-cost, productized, safe, reliable thing, that you do a lot. Rather than being something that everyone's scared of doing that. >> Or they bolted on after they make decisions and the retrofit, pre-existing conditions into a disaster recovery. Which is chaotic in and of itself. >> So, get the org chart right and then actually get the disaster recovery patterns. If you need something highly available, do that first, before the apps turn up. >> Adrian, thanks for coming on, chaos engineering, congratulations and again, we know you know a little about Netflix, you know that environment, and been big Amazon customer. Congratulations on your success, looking forward to keeping in touch. Thanks for coming on and sharing the AWS perspective on theCUBE. I'm John Furrier, Lauren Cooney live in Denmark for KubeCon 2018 part of the CNC at the Cloud Native Compute Foundation. We'll back with more live coverage, stay with us. We'll be right back. (upbeat music)