>> From "theCube" Studios in Palo Alto in Boston bringing you data-driven insights from "theCube" and ETR. This is "Breaking Analysis" with Dave Vellante. >> As an independent pure play company, Palo Alto Networks has earned its status as the leader in security. You can measure this in a variety of ways. Revenue, market cap, execution, ethos, and most importantly, conversations with customers generally. In CISO specifically, who consistently affirm this position. The company's on track to double its revenues in fiscal year 23 relative to fiscal year 2020. Despite macro headwinds, which are likely to carry through next year, Palo Alto owes its position to a clarity of vision and strong execution on a TAM expansion strategy through acquisitions and integration into its cloud and SaaS offerings. Hello and welcome to this week's "Wikibon Cube Insights" powered by ETR and this breaking analysis and ahead of Palo Alto Ignite the company's user conference, we bring you the next chapter on top of the last week's cybersecurity update. We're going to dig into the ETR data on Palo Alto Networks as we promised and provide a glimpse of what we're going to look for at "Ignite" and posit what Palo Alto needs to do to stay on top of the hill. Now, the challenges for cybersecurity professionals. Dead simple to understand. Solving it, not so much. This is a taxonomic eye test, if you will, from Optiv. It's one of our favorite artifacts to make the point the cybersecurity landscape is a mosaic of stovepipes. Security professionals have to work with dozens of tools many legacy combined with shiny new toys to try and keep up with the relentless pace of innovation catalyzed by the incredibly capable well-funded and motivated adversaries. Cybersecurity is an anomalous market in that the leaders have low single digit market shares. Think about that. Cisco at one point held 60% market share in the networking business and it's still deep into the 40s. Oracle captures around 30% of database market revenue. EMC and storage at its peak had more than 30% of that market. Even Dell's PC market shares, you know, in the mid 20s or even over that from a revenue standpoint. So cybersecurity from a market share standpoint is even more fragmented perhaps than the software industry. Okay, you get the point. So despite its position as the number one player Palo Alto might have maybe three maybe 4% of the total market, depending on what you use as your denominator, but just a tiny slice. So how is it that we can sit here and declare Palo Alto as the undisputed leader? Well, we probably wouldn't go that far. They probably have quite a bit of competition. But this CISO from a recent ETR round table discussion with our friend Eric Bradley, summed up Palo Alto's allure. We thought pretty well. The question was why Palo Alto Networks? Here's the answer. Because of its completeness as a platform, its ability to integrate with its own products or they acquire, integrate then rebrand them as their own. We've looked at other vendors we just didn't think they were as mature and we already had implemented some of the Palo Alto tools like the firewalls and stuff and we thought why not go holistically with the vendor a single throat to choke, if you will, if stuff goes wrong. And I think that was probably the primary driver and familiarity with the tools and the resources that they provided. Now here's another stat from ETR's Eric Bradley. He gave us a glimpse of the January survey that's in the field now. The percent of IT buyers stating that they plan to consolidate redundant vendors, it went from 34% in the October survey and now stands at 44%. So we fo we feel this bodes well for consolidators like Palo Alto networks. And the same is true from Microsoft's kind of good enough approach. It should also be true for CrowdStrike although last quarter we saw softness reported on in their SMB market, whereas interestingly MongoDB actually saw consistent strength from its SMB and its self-serve. So that's something that we're watching very closely. Now, Palo Alto Networks has held up better than most of its peers in the stock market. So let's take a look at that real quick. This chart gives you a sense of how well. It's a one year comparison of Palo Alto with the bug ETF. That's the cyber basket that we like to compare often CrowdStrike, Zscaler, and Okta. Now remember Palo Alto, they didn't run up as much as CrowdStrike, ZS and Okta during the pandemic but you can see it's now down unquote only 9% for the year. Whereas the cyber basket ETF is off 27% roughly in line with the NASDAQ. We're not showing that CrowdStrike down 44%, Zscaler down 61% and Okta off a whopping 72% in the past 12 months. Now as we've indicated, Palo Alto is making a strong case for consolidating point tools and we think it will have a much harder time getting customers to switch off of big platforms like Cisco who's another leader in network security. But based on the fragmentation in the market there's plenty of room to grow in our view. We asked breaking analysis contributor Chip Simington for his take on the technicals of the stock and he said that despite Palo Alto's leadership position it doesn't seem to make much difference these days. It's all about interest rates. And even though this name has performed better than its peers, it looks like the stock wants to keep testing its 52 week lows, but he thinks Palo Alto got oversold during the last big selloff. And the fact that the company's free cash flow is so strong probably keeps it at the one 50 level or above maybe bouncing around there for a while. If it breaks through that under to the downside it's ne next test is at that low of around one 40 level. So thanks for that, Chip. Now having get that out of the way as we said on the previous chart Palo Alto has strong opinions, it's founder and CTO, Nir Zuk, is extremely clear on that point of view. So let's take a look at how Palo Alto got to where it is today and how we think you should think about his future. The company was founded around 18 years ago as a network security company focused on what they called NextGen firewalls. Now, what Palo Alto did was different. They didn't try to stuff a bunch of functionality inside of a hardware box. Rather they layered network security functions on top of its firewalls and delivered value as a service through software running at the time in its own cloud. So pretty obvious today, but forward thinking for the time and now they've moved to a more true cloud native platform and much more activity in the public cloud. In February, 2020, right before the pandemic we reported on the divergence in market values between Palo Alto and Fort Net and we cited some challenges that Palo Alto was happening having transitioning to a cloud native model. And at the time we said we were confident that Palo Alto would make it through the knot hole. And you could see from the previous chart that it has. So the company's architectural approach was to do the heavy lifting in the cloud. And this eliminates the need for customers to deploy sensors on prem or proxies on prem or sandboxes on prem sandboxes, you know for instance are vulnerable to overwhelming attacks. Think about it, if you're a sandbox is on prem you're not going to be updating that every day. No way. You're probably not going to updated even every week or every month. And if the capacity of your sandbox is let's say 20,000 files an hour you know a hacker's just going to turn up the volume, it'll overwhelm you. They'll send a hundred thousand emails attachments into your sandbox and they'll choke you out and then they'll have the run of the house while you're trying to recover. Now the cloud doesn't completely prevent that but what it does, it definitely increases the hacker's cost. So they're going to probably hit some easier targets and that's kind of the objective of security firms. You know, increase the denominator on the ROI. All right, the next thing that Palo Alto did is start acquiring aggressively, I think we counted 17 or 18 acquisitions to expand the TAM beyond network security into endpoint CASB, PaaS security, IaaS security, container security, serverless security, incident response, SD WAN, CICD pipeline security, attack service management, supply chain security. Just recently with the acquisition of Cider Security and Palo Alto by all accounts takes the time to integrate into its cloud and SaaS platform called Prisma. Unlike many acquisitive companies in the past EMC was a really good example where you ended up with a kind of a Franken portfolio. Now all this leads us to believe that Palo Alto wants to be the consolidator and is in a good position to do so. But beyond that, as multi-cloud becomes more prevalent and more of a strategy customers tell us they want a consistent experience across clouds. And is going to be the same by the way with IoT. So of the next wave here. Customers don't want another stove pipe. So we think Palo Alto is in a good position to build what we call the security super cloud that layer above the clouds that brings a common experience for devs and operational teams. So of course the obvious question is this, can Palo Alto networks continue on this path of acquire and integrate and still maintain best of breed status? Can it? Will it? Does it even have to? As Holger Mueller of Constellation Research and I talk about all the time integrated suites seem to always beat best of breed in the long run. We'll come back to that. Now, this next graphic that we're going to show you underscores this question about portfolio. Here's a picture and I don't expect you to digest it all but it's a screen grab of Palo Alto's product and solutions portfolios, network cloud, network security rather, cloud security, Sassy, CNAP, endpoint unit 42 which is their threat intelligence platform and every imaginable security service and solution for customers. Well, maybe not every, I'm sure there's more to come like supply chain with the recent Cider acquisition and maybe more IoT beyond ZingBox and earlier acquisition but we're sure there will be more in the future both organic and inorganic. Okay, let's bring in more of the ETR survey data. For those of you who don't know ETR, they are the number one enterprise data platform surveying thousands of end customers every quarter with additional drill down surveys and customer round tables just an awesome SaaS enabled platform. And here's a view that shows net score or spending momentum on the vertical axis in provision or presence within the ETR data set on the horizontal axis. You see that red dotted line at 40%. Anything at or over that indicates a highly elevated net score. And as you can see Palo Alto is right on that line just under. And I'll give you another glimpse it looks like Palo Alto despite the macro may even just edge up a bit in the next survey based on the glimpse that Eric gave us. Now those colored bars in the bottom right corner they show the breakdown of Palo Alto's net score and underscore the methodology that ETR uses. The lime green is new customer adoptions, that's 7%. The forest green at 38% represents the percent of customers that are spending 6% or more on Palo Alto solutions. The gray is at that 40 or 8% that's flat spending plus or minus 5%. The pinkish at 5% is spending is down on Palo Alto network products by 6% or worse. And the bright red at only 2% is churn or defections. Very low single digit numbers for Palo Alto, that's a real positive. What you do is you subtract the red from the green and you get a net score of 38% which is very good for a company of Palo Alto size. And we'll note this is based on just under 400 responses in the ETR survey that are Palo Alto customers out of around 1300 in the total survey. It's a really good representation of Palo Alto. And you can see the other leading companies like CrowdStrike, Okta, Zscaler, Forte, Cisco they loom large with similar aspirations. Well maybe not so much Okta. They don't necessarily rule want to rule the world. They want to rule identity and of course the ever ubiquitous Microsoft in the upper right. Now drilling deeper into the ETR data, let's look at how Palo Alto has progressed over the last three surveys in terms of market presence in the survey. This view of the data shows provision in the data going back to October, 2021, that's the gray bars. The blue is July 22 and the yellow is the latest survey from October, 2022. Remember, the January survey is currently in the field. Now the leftmost set of data there show size a company. The middle set of data shows the industry for a select number of industries in the right most shows, geographic region. Notice anything, yes, Palo Alto up across the board relative to both this past summer and last fall. So that's pretty impressive. Palo Alto network CEO, Nikesh Aurora, stressed on the last earnings call that the company is seeing somewhat elongated deal approvals and sometimes splitting up size of deals. He's stressed that certain industries like energy, government and financial services continue to spend. But we would expect even a pullback there as companies get more conservative. But the point is that Nikesh talked about how they're hiring more sales pros to work the pipeline because they understand that they have to work harder to pull deals forward 'cause they got to get more approvals and they got to increase the volume that's coming through the pipeline to account for the possibility that certain companies are going to split up the deals, you know, large deals they want to split into to smaller bite size chunks. So they're really going hard after they go to market expansion to account for that. All right, so we're going to wrap by sharing what we expect and what we're going to probe for at Palo Alto Ignite next week, Lisa Martin and I will be hosting "theCube" and here's what we'll be looking for. First, it's a four day event at the MGM with the meat of the program on days two and three. That's day two was the big keynote. That's when we'll start our broadcasting, we're going for two days. Now our understanding is we've never done Palo Alto Ignite before but our understanding it's a pretty technically oriented crowd that's going to be eager to hear what CTO and founder Nir Zuk has to say. And as well CEO Nikesh Aurora and as in addition to longtime friend of "theCube" and current president, BJ Jenkins, he's going to be speaking. Wendy Whitmore runs Unit 42 and is going to be several other high profile Palo Alto execs, as well, Thomas Kurian from Google is a featured speaker. Lee Claridge, who is Palo Alto's, chief product officer we think is going to be giving the audience heavy doses of Prisma Cloud and Cortex enhancements. Now, Cortex, you might remember, came from an acquisition and does threat detection and attack surface management. And we're going to hear a lot about we think about security automation. So we'll be listening for how Cortex has been integrated and what kind of uptake that it's getting. We've done some, you know, modeling in from the ETR. Guys have done some modeling of cortex, you know looks like it's got a lot of upside and through the Palo Alto go to market machine, you know could really pick up momentum. That's something that we'll be probing for. Now, one of the other things that we'll be watching is pricing. We want to talk to customers about their spend optimization, their spending patterns, their vendor consolidation strategies. Look, Palo Alto is a premium offering. It charges for value. It's expensive. So we also want to understand what kind of switching costs are customers willing to absorb and how onerous they are and what's the business case look like? How are they thinking about that business case. We also want to understand and really probe on how will Palo Alto maintain best of breed as it continues to acquire and integrate to expand its TAM and appeal as that one-stop shop. You know, can it do that as we talked about before. And will it do that? There's also an interesting tension going on sort of changing subjects here in security. There's a guy named Edward Hellekey who's been in "theCube" before. He hasn't been in "theCube" in a while but he's a security pro who has educated us on the nuances of protecting data privacy, public policy, how it varies by region and how complicated it is relative to security. Because securities you technically you have to show a chain of custody that proves unequivocally, for example that data has been deleted or scrubbed or that metadata does. It doesn't include any residual private data that violates the laws, the local laws. And the tension is this, you need good data and lots of it to have good security, really the more the better. But government policy is often at odds in a major blocker to sharing data and it's getting more so. So we want to understand this tension and how companies like Palo Alto are dealing with it. Our customers testing public policy in courts we think not quite yet, our government's making exceptions and policies like GDPR that favor security over data privacy. What are the trade-offs there? And finally, one theme of this breaking analysis is what does Palo Alto have to do to stay on top? And we would sum it up with three words. Ecosystem, ecosystem, ecosystem. And we said this at CrowdStrike Falcon in September that the one concern we had was the pace of ecosystem development for CrowdStrike. Is collaboration possible with competitors? Is being adopted aggressively? Is Palo Alto being adopted aggressively by global system integrators? What's the uptake there? What about developers? Look, the hallmark of a cloud company which Palo Alto is a cloud security company is a thriving ecosystem that has entries into and exits from its platform. So we'll be looking at what that ecosystem looks like how vibrant and inclusive it is where the public clouds fit and whether Palo Alto Networks can really become the security super cloud. Okay, that's a wrap stop by next week. If you're in Vegas, say hello to "theCube" team. We have an unbelievable lineup on the program. Now if you're not there, check out our coverage on theCube.net. I want to thank Eric Bradley for sharing a glimpse on short notice of the upcoming survey from ETR and his thoughts. And as always, thanks to Chip Symington for his sharp comments. Want to thank Alex Morrison, who's on production and manages the podcast Ken Schiffman as well in our Boston studio, Kristen Martin and Cheryl Knight they help get the word out on social and of course in our newsletters, Rob Hoof, is our editor in chief over at Silicon Angle who does some awesome editing, thank you to all. Remember all these episodes they're available as podcasts. Wherever you listen, all you got to do is search "Breaking Analysis" podcasts. I publish each week on wikibon.com and silicon angle.com where you can email me at david.valante@siliconangle.com or dm me at D Valante or comment on our LinkedIn post. And please do check out etr.ai. They've got the best survey data in the enterprise tech business. This is Dave Valante for "theCube" Insights powered by ETR. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next week on "Ignite" or next time on "Breaking Analysis". (upbeat music)

(upbeat theme music plays) >> Live from Atlanta, Georgia, it's theCube. Covering Citrix Synergy, Atlanta, 2019, brought to you by Citrix. >> Hi, welcome back to theCube. Lisa Martin with Keith Townsend, and we are live in Atlanta, Georgia for Citrix Synergy, 2019. We are pleased to welcome Jack Gold to The Cube, President and founder of Jack Gold & Associates. Jack, it's great to have you join Keith and me this afternoon. >> Thank you for having me. >> So, we had a great day. We've talked to eight or nine folks or so, lot's of really relevant exciting news from Citrix this morning. Talking about the employee experience as, and how I kind of interpreted it, as a catalyst for digital transformation, cultural transformation. You've been working with Citrix for a long time. I'd love to get your perspective on not just what you heard today from Citrix, and with Google and Microsoft, but in the last year or so since they've really kind of done a re-brand effort. What're your thoughts on that? >> Yeah, it's interesting from a Citrix perspective. Citrix, the old Citrix I guess I would put in quotes right, was always known as the VDI company. I've got, you know, the screen that will talk to the server, that will talk to whatever other apps I need it to talk to, and I can have a nice thin client sitting on my desktop and I don't have to spend a lot of money. And I also don't have to worry about if I'm going to bank people stealing stuff off the hard drive, or whatever. They've made a pretty significant transition that was the old work space, if you will. The modern work spaces which is where Citrix is really moving is one where, look we've all grown up with smart phones for the last ten or fifteen years, our kids don't know anything different. They're not going to deal with anything that's complex, anything where I have to log in and out of applications, anything where I have to switch between screens, this just doesn't make any sense for them. And so, what we're seeing Citrix do is move into an environment where, as I said, it's about the modern workspace, it's about being able to help me do my job not getting in my way of me doing my job, and that's really the transition. It's not just Citrix, the industry is moving in that direction as well, but Citrix is really at the forefront of making a lot of that work now. >> So, Jack, talk to us about the new promise of the new Citrix. The, if you remember me, it had to have be about seven years ago, I did a blog post of running Windows XP on your iPad. It was taking, you know, the then desktop solution and running it on your iPad. >> (Jack) Sure. >> And it was a cool trick. But we talked about, today, we would hope by today, that mobile technology would of forced companies to rewrite applications, for a mobile first experience. But that simply hasn't happened. So, presenting a bad application on to a mobile dot, to a mobile work station, or a mobile device, doesn't work. We end up packing in, trying it, and squeezing, and trying to get our work done, how is Citrix promising to change that experience, even versus their competitors? >> Sure. Well, first of all so two bad's don't make a good. Right. Having a bad app on a bad device doesn't make it good. >> (Keith) Right. >> Doesn't make it easy to use, doesn't help me get my job done. What we really are talking about, now, is the ability to build a workspace. Something where I sit and look at, that helps me get my job done, as opposed to getting in the way. Which means that, instead of having to punch fourteen different holes, or you know, icons and sit at my keyboard and type forty-eight different commands and do thirty-eight different log-ins as each one is different, and by the way I couldn't remember them so I just called the help desk in-between, and that's another half an hour of my time that I didn't want to, that I wasted. >> (laughs) Give me my word perfect templates. >> (Lisa laughs) >> (Jack) There you go, there you go, word perfect I remember that no so well. I remember it well not so nicely. What we're really trying to focus on now is user experience, right. What we're really trying to focus on is if, if you wanted to get your work done, I want to make it easy. Think about it as going to a grocery store. If you can't, if you've got a list of groceries and you can't find what you want in five minutes, you leave, you go somewhere else. You go to another grocery store where things are much easier to find. It's the same at work, or it should be the same at work. Now, that said, a lot of apps and organizations, especially big enterprises where they have, some can have literally thousands of apps, are not going away. The notion that everything is going to go into the modern workspace, where everything looks like a phone, it's a nice idea, it's properly not going to happen. Legacy apps will be legacy apps for a very long time, it's like mainframes are dead, guess what, they're still around. That said, that doesn't mean that you can't take some of those legacy apps and make them easier to use with the proper front-end. And that's really what Citrix is trying to do with the workspaces, and other's again, it's not just Citrix in this, we have to be fair there are lots people working in this space. But, if you can make the front-end workspace more attractive, easier to use, easier to navigate, even if I've got old, clunky stuff in the background. For me as a user, you can give me back fifteen, twenty, thirty minutes a day, an hour a day, that's really productivity. Look, if you're paying me a hundred dollars an hour, and you save me an hour a day you just made a hundred dollars every day that I'm working at that company, that sounds like a lot, but there are people who make that kind of money. Or even a fifty or twenty-five dollars, it all adds up. And so, what we're really doing is trying to move into an environment where if I can make you more productive but making things more easier for you to navigate, and getting in and our of applications more quickly, getting more information to me more quickly, which makes the overall organization more productive because I'm sharing more information with you, then that's a real win-win, and that's where I think Citrix is really trying to position itself, and doing a fairly good job at doing that. Clearly they don't have all of the components yet, but then no one does. This is an ongoing process. >> So, employee experience is table-stakes for any business, as we look at the modern workforce it's highly disrupted. >> (Jack) Yes. >> It's composed of five different generations. >> (Jack) Yes. >> Who have varying expertise with technology. It is also demanding because we're all consumers. >> (Jack) Yes. >> And so we have this expectation, or this, yeah I'd say expectation that I want to be able to go in and have this personalized experience. I don't want to have to become an expert in sales-force because I might need to understand, can I talk to that costumer and ask them to be a reference? How much time are you going to take? But this personalization is becoming more and more critical as we see this influence from the consumer side. >> Right. >> Were some of the things that you heard today from Citrix, what are your thoughts on how their going to be able to improve that more personalized employee experience? >> So people think of personalization, I think sometimes, too narrowly. For some people personalization is, you know, I've got my phone out, and I have the apps that I want on my phone and that's personalization. I think of it a little bit differently. We need to extend personalization. When I'm at work, what I want is not just the apps I want, clearly I want those, right, but also the ability, to get help with those apps as I need it, right. And so where Citrix is going is trying to put intelligence into the system, so that when I'm interacting with back-end solutions or my neighbors, or with teams collaboration, I get the assistance I need to make it easier for me to do that work. It's not just the apps, it's also help with the apps. And if we can do that, that's really what we want. We go, you know, if I have a problem with my laptop I'm going to come to you and say, hey, you did this yesterday what was the result, can you help me for five minutes? Five minutes is never five minutes, it's usually an hour and a half, but still. I'll come to you. Why can't I have an app on my desk that does the same thing? I'm having trouble. Help me. Fix it. Let me know what I'm doing wrong, or let me know how I can do it better. And that's where Citrix is trying to go with the analytics that they've got in place. Which is huge, I think they're underplaying that, because I think that the whole analytic space in making things easier for people to use, because in understanding where my problems are is huge, and that's going to pick up. The notion of having a nice pretty, pretty may not be the right word, but attractive at least, workspace for me to go in that doesn't get frustrated, frustration is a killer in productivity, as everyone knows. There are examples I've heard multiple people tell me now that they go out and hire, especially with millennials, that go out an hire twenty or thirty new employees, and half of them quit within a week because their systems are so bad that they get so frustrated that they're not going to work there. So, the notion of having a modern workspace where I get the applications that I need, I get the assistance I need, because of the analytics of that backend telling the systems what I need, and making it easier for me to do it. And then allowing me to be productive not just for myself, but for the organization, is where we all need to go and I think that Citrix is making some real progress going that way. >> (Keith) Well Jack, we're talking about products that haven't quite been released yet, so I'm trying to get a sense or, worth's the right built versus buy stage, in complexity Citrix should be? You know, I can make it apple pie by going out and picking the apple. >> (Jack laughs) Right. >> And making my own crust or, I can go buy filling, or I can just go buy any mince pie, stick it in the oven and warm it up. Three very different experiences. Three different layers of investment, and outcomes frankly. In this world, I can go hire application developers to write these many apps, to write these customizations, to write these integrations, but that's, I think that's akin to picking the apple and that just simply doesn't scale. But, also while any mince pie is okay every now and again, I want, you know, something of higher quality. Where do you think Citrix is on the kind of range of built versus buy with this intelligent experience? >> So built versus buy is a very interesting phenomenon. And it's interesting because a lot of it has to do with where you think you are right now in the world, right. You know you mention going out and getting developers and building your own, that's all well and good, it doesn't scale, and by the way in today's market you can't find them to begin with. So you often don't even have a choice. So that's number one. Number two is that there are companies out there that still think for competitive advantage that they have to do everything from scratch, like building your pie. Yes, you probably make the best pie in the world, but guess what, sometimes a good enough pie is good enough. Right, and if you're in business sometimes good enough is the only way you survive. It doesn't have to be a hundred percent perfect, ninety percent's okay too. People can deal with that. So that's the other piece. The third piece of it is, from an end-user perspective, right, if end-users are accustom to having an interaction in a certain way and the you go out and get developers that come in and do it, something completely different, which they're apt to do because each will have their own kind of flavor to it, then you just force them to learn one, two, three, four, five different interface interactions I'm not going to do that. I'm going to get frustrated as heck, and I'm going to go call the help desk or I'm going to go get my app and say go do this for me. Both of which are counterproductive to the company and to me. So, it really depends on where you are in the stage of where your company is, I would say built versus buy it's not a one or a zero. There's lots of shades of gray in between, it's also not all or nothing. So, some applications might be built internally, some you may want to buy externally, some you may have a hybrid, and the nice thing about where workspaces is going now is that you plug all of those into the same environment. That's really the ultimate goal, is to make it as easy and transparent for the organization as possible, and also for the user because the user ultimately is the end consumer. And if it's not good for the end consumer, it's not good for the company either. >> (Lisa) So delivering this great game-changing customer experience for this, as we talked about before this distributed modern work force that wants to be able to access mobile apps, Sass apps. >> (Jack) Right. >> Web apps from tablets, PC, phone, desktop. >> (Jack) Your car, your refrigerator >> Exactly. >> (Jack) Anything with a screen on it. >> Oh yeah, the refrigerators. Wherever you are, I think, okay people >> (Jack) Sure. >> We're people, and we are the biggest single security threat there is. >> (Jack laughs) >> So in your perspective, how is what Citrix is talking about balancing security as an essential component of this employee experience? >> So there are a few things, number one is a lot of companies think that if they limit the end user experience they're more secure. The truth of the matter is, yes, I mean if you don't let me get in to an app I can't steal application or information, or lose it somehow. But I also can't get my work done. So there's a balance between security and privacy which many companies don't talk about which is not exactly the same thing, there are two unique things, more and more privacy is becoming as big or bigger an issue than security, but you know we can get at that in a minute. But, the notion of security really relates to what I was talking about earlier which is analytics. If I know what you're suppose to be doing, you're here at Synergy. If someone just got your credentials and logged in from Los Angeles or New York or Chicago or Denver or wherever, I know it's not you. I can shut that thing down very quickly and not have to worry about them stealing information, also if you're, if I know you're not suppose to be in a certain version of SAP, you're not suppose to be doing some ERP system and you're in it, then again the analytics tells me that there's something going on, there's something anomalous going on that I need to investigate. So, having a system that protects because there's a kind of a front end to everything that's going on in the back end, and a realization of what's going on behind that screen gives me a much higher sense of security from a corporate perspective, it's not perfect there is no such thing as perfect security, but it's a lot better than just letting us kind of do our own thing, and loading, you know, semantic or McAfee or whatever on your PC. And that's where the industry ultimately has to go. That becomes part of the new modern workspace. It's not just about more productive it's about more secure. It's about more private. It's about not letting information escape that shouldn't be there to begin with. >> (Keith) So last question on data grabbing. Because we haven't talked about data and data is, you know, probably the most important thing in this topic. The importance of the (unintelligible) and Google announcement. You know, we, the yottabyte, the first time I've heard that term, yottabye of data that data's going to be spread across the world and this, this ideal of centralized compute and us being able to present, compute into data centers, no longer going to work, that we're going to have to, applications are going to be spread across the world. Where do you Citrix advancing that discipline of providing apps where they need to be with these relationships? >> So, it's an interesting phenomenon what we're going through right now, if you look back a couple of decades ago everything was centralized, people were centralized, they all work in one building, computing was centralized it was all in the data center, IT was centralized, it was all, you know, working around the servers. The Cloud is the opposite direction, although I would argue The Cloud isn't new, The Cloud is just time-share in a different environment, for us old people who remember the old IBM time-share computers. But everything is becoming distributed, data is distributed, people are distributed, applications are distributed, networks are distributed, you name it. The key critical factor for companies in keeping their productivity, keeping up the productivity is to make sure that the distributed environment doesn't get in the way of doing work. So you've got things like latency, if it takes me, if I'm in. (crowd cheers) >> They're having a party behind us. >> No, they agree with you! >> (Jack laughs) Yes, apparently. I, you know, if I'm here at Synergy but I have to work back at my offices near Boston, I can't wait five minutes for information to come back and forth, it's like the old days. Latency now has to be within five microseconds or people get frustrated, so that becomes a network issue, applications, same way, if I have to go to a data center, the data isn't local to my server here, it has to go to London, I'm not going to wait three minutes for it to come back like we use to, or ten minutes or an hour and a half. Or come back the next morning. You know, you want to book a flight on an airline, are you going to wait thirty minutes for them to find you a seat? You're going to go to another airline. So the whole notion of distributed means that it's very different now, even though it's distributed, everything is local. And by local, keeping it local means that you have to have latency below a certain point (crowd cheers) so that I don't realize that it's distributed, or I don't care that it's distributed. Yottabyte's of data means that we're going to have data everywhere, accessible all the time, and we're going to produce data like crazy. You know, a typical car, an autonomous car will produce a gigabyte of data every minute. Hundreds every, you know, hour. So, the amount of data is going to be fantastic that we have to deal with. Then, the big question becomes, okay so, I can't personally deal with all this data, it's impossible, I have to have the assistance, the intelligence within the system to go off and make something of that data so that I can actually interact with it in a meaningful fashion. That's where Citrix would like to go, that's where other's would like to go. They can't do it alone, because the problem is just too darn big. But, it will, we will get there, companies will get there eventually, not all of them perhaps, only the ones that are going to be successful long term are going to get there. >> Well, Jack, I wish we had more time to chat with you. This has, I just feel like going dot, dot, dot, to be continued. And I want to say, coincidence, I don't know, there were two rounds of applause when you talked about latency. (Keith laughs) >> There we go. They're just waiting for the bar to open, it's taking too long. >> (Lisa laughs) You think that's what it is? >> (Jack) Properly. >> All right well we'll get you over there, and thank-you again for joining Keith and me this afternoon. >> Thank-you very much. >> (Lisa) Our pleasure. For Keith Townsend, I'm Lisa Martin, you're watching theCube live from Citrix Synergy, 2019. Thanks for watching. (upbeat theme music plays)

>> Narrator: From San Francisco, it's theCUBE covering OSIsoft PI World 2018 brought to you by OSIsoft. >> Hey welcome back, everybody, Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're in downtown San Francisco at OSIsoft PI World 2018 getting to the end of the day, it's been a very busy day, a lot of great conversations and about 3,000 people here talking about the industrial Internet of Things and IoT and really process improvement using data. They've been at it for almost four decades and we're excited to have a practitioner. He's Tara Rana, he is the Digital Transformation Process Control in Systems Engineering for Barrick Gold. Tara, good to see you. >> Oh, nice to meet you as well. >> Absolutely. >> Thank you. >> So, little bit of basics on Barrick Gold, kind of who are you guys, what's your business? >> All right, so, Barrick Gold Corporation, it's the largest gold producer as of today in the world. And we have about thirteen operating sites across the world. We are headquartered in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. >> Jeff: Okay. >> We are hugely focused in the Americas. About 75% of our revenue comes from the Americas, so that's North America and South America, and then we have other projects and mining operations across the world, to Australia, Chile, Zambia in Africa, Saudi Arabia, so it's global. >> So you are, you're basically getting the gold out of the dirt. >> Tara: From the rocks. >> From the rocks. >> Yeah. >> And it's pretty interesting right, we always think, we're here in San Francisco, right, in 1849 is when it all started, there was a guy with a pan, >> Tara: Oh yeah. (laughs) >> But that's not how it works anymore, right? >> Tara: No. >> Now it's a big industrial process that starts with lots of truckloads of ore, and then at the end of many many steps, out comes the gold. >> Tara: Yeah. >> And we've heard a number of times that there's so many process improvements that basically can increase the percentage of gold that you can extract out of that ore. >> So and to that note, there are a couple of things that we're actually looking at. So not only that but also as we're moving into the future, the gold grades from the ore is diminishing. And that's where I think we're at the right place, because we are looking at technology, we are looking at the buzzwords, like "artificial intelligence" to help us in that phase because all the good grades are almost gone, so to get that little gold that's in a big mass of rock, we definitely need to look at technologies. >> So the grade is the percentage of gold per unit of ore, right? Because the gold itself is the same gold, once you get it out. >> Correct, it's the ounce of gold in that mass of rock. >> So gold mining's been going on for a long time. What are some of the opportunities for you guys to use software to basically get your yield up? >> Okay, so there are a couple of things where we can look at technology. So number one is safety. So as the gold grade is going down, which also means we are actually going deeper in the mine, so as we go deeper in the mine, that means it's becoming unsafe for people operating underground. So we're looking at technology, we are looking at things like autonomous vehicles, artificial intelligence algorithms that can help us in exploration, and then other things like robotics, drones, all kinds of stuff. So, the technology space is huge for us to explore, to use. And then to go to safety, of course we're looking at reducing our operating costs, increasing productivity as much as we can, and hence, lower our AISC, which is the All-In Sustaining Cost. >> So the autonomous vehicles is an interesting one. I don't think most people are aware how many autonomous vehicles operate in mines. I don't know if it's gold mines specifically, but I think we've talked to Caterpillar before, and there's a lot of autonomous vehicles running around mining operations. >> That's the future definitely, so right now we are actually taking a couple of projects to run these autonomous mines. But yes, you're right, it's not only the gold industry, but across mining and metals industry. >> Right, and what is digital transformation in mining? 'Cause we think of big lumpy assets that are made out of rocks and steel and rubber, and you know, heavy heavy industry, heavy heavy machinery. So what does digital transformation look like in the gold industry? >> So, again, this is very interesting and also dangerous. Why I say that, because... I'll tackle the dangerous piece first. Because digital transformation is again a buzzword, we have gone through different ones in the past. What we are targeting to do through digital transformation is not new. We have attempted to do this in the past with some degree of success, but as you know, the mining industry's a very cyclical industry. So when we were in the peak of the cycle, we invested a lot of money, we did a lot of cool projects, but as soon as we moved into the downward cycle, the budgets were tighter, so some of those projects were taken off the table. But now what's happening is, we are taking it back, but we're looking at this as an enabler. What that means is we are democratizing the digital transformation laterally and vertically, which means, within the site, and also across the organization. So we are educating our operators, we are educating the metallurgists and all that, because digital transformation is more cultural transformation. You know, we all have these cool gadgets and a lot of these we use in our daily lives. But how we can use these effectively in the mining world, how we can use things like iPads, wireless technology, and bring that information, as I mentioned to you before, on the table of the operators so that they are empowered now to make decisions rather than waiting forever for their frontline supervisors to give them that information. So now with the use of digital transformation as an enabler we're hoping that A, we are making it safer, we are democratizing this, as well as making decisions faster efficient. >> So it's pretty interesting on the democratization. 'Cause we see that in a lot of industries. So basically, giving the power, the tools, and the data to a broader group of people so they can make better decisions on the line. >> Correct. >> That's really the operator side. But you said something interesting, too, before we turned the cameras on, about transparency, not only at the site, but across the company, so that more people have more visibility into more pieces of the puzzle. >> Tara: Correct. >> So how's that been going? >> It has been going great so far. So what I meant by that was that the communities that we operate in, so Nevada in the States, Veladero, San Juan community in Argentina, communities like that... So now with the help of digital transformation we can also take this information to the community. Now they're more excited about what we're doing rather than being skeptical about us not sharing with them. >> Jeff: Right. >> So I think that is going great. The other aspect I should bring out is environmental. Environmental is a big piece. So, safety, health, and environment, we live by that because that's our license to operate. So with the help of digital transformation, and by sharing this information with our communities, I think we can reach our goal and bring everybody on board along this journey. >> Right, and I would imagine that ties directly back into trust. >> Correct, yeah. >> With the transparency, which I'm sure can be a big point of friction if you don't have that transparency. >> Tara: Absolutely. >> Especially on the environmental side, yeah. >> Tara: Yep, yeah. >> So what are you here for, what are you finding here at PI World? >> Okay, so I don't think I mentioned this, but along this journey, we are also looking for strategic partners. Because we cannot do this all by ourselves, right? And that was one of the reasons why digital transformation failed before, is we created silos, we didn't want to collaborate, we wanted to keep all the information within ourselves, and we were not sharing the information, not only publicly, but also within the organization. So what my role here in this conference is to share with all our peers in the industry what we have been doing, and also learn from others what they have been doing so that we can collaborate and make mining industry in general a very lucrative industry for everybody and make it safer and productive. >> So I would imagine there's probably a lot of sensitivity in sharing some of the operating processes, and I would imagine there's some proprietary technology in the way that you get your yield out of the ore. At the same time I would imagine safety and environmental can only benefit the industry if you share that information. >> Yes, absolutely. >> I would imagine that's not what you're going to build your competitive advantage on. >> No. >> And there's really more of an opportunity for industry sharing, if you will. >> Correct, so the point about... Sharing information about production. Yes, that is definitely sensitive, but I think what we are interested in sharing is the concepts, you know how we can do this digital transformation together, rather than the numbers that we're looking at. We're looking at percentage improvement. So even if I can share what we are doing with my peers in the industry in general, and if they are benefited, I think that's great. >> Jeff: Yeah... >> For the mining industry in general. >> Is the industry more receptive to that sharing than it has been in the past? >> Definitely there is more sharing now. But of course there are still some hurdles, and I'm hoping that attending conferences like this will make those hurdles smaller and smaller and we can do better. >> All right, well, Tara, thanks for taking a few minutes and sharing your story, and wish you obviously a lot of success on the safety and getting gold cheaper so we can all buy our wives bigger necklaces for Mother's Day, it's coming up, right? (laughs) >> Sure, absolutely, yeah. Thank you very much, and it's my pleasure to share, and let's enjoy the rest of the conference. >> Well, thanks a lot. He's Tara, I'm Jeff, you're watching theCUBE from OSIsoft PI World 2018 San Francisco, thanks for watching. (mellow techno music)

(gentle music) >> Narrator: "TheCUBE's" live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies, creating technologies that drive human progress. (upbeat music) >> Hello everybody, welcome back to day four of "theCUBE's" coverage of MWC '23. We're here live at the Fira in Barcelona. Wall-to-wall coverage, John Furrier is in our Palo Alto studio, banging out all the news. Really, the whole week we've been talking about the disaggregation of the telco network, the new opportunities in telco. We're really excited to have AT&T and Snowflake here. Dave Whittington is the AVP, at the Chief Data Office at AT&T. Roddy Tranum is the Assistant Vice President, for Channel Performance Data and Tools at AT&T. And Phil Kippen, the Global Head Of Industry-Telecom at Snowflake, Snowflake's new telecom business. Snowflake just announced earnings last night. Typical Scarpelli, they beat earnings, very conservative guidance, stocks down today, but we like Snowflake long term, they're on that path to 10 billion. Guys, welcome to "theCUBE." Thanks so much >> Phil: Thank you. >> for coming on. >> Dave and Roddy: Thanks Dave. >> Dave, let's start with you. The data culture inside of telco, We've had this, we've been talking all week about this monolithic system. Super reliable. You guys did a great job during the pandemic. Everything shifting to landlines. We didn't even notice, you guys didn't miss a beat. Saved us. But the data culture's changing inside telco. Explain that. >> Well, absolutely. So, first of all IoT and edge processing is bringing forth new and exciting opportunities all the time. So, we're bridging the world between a lot of the OSS stuff that we can do with edge processing. But bringing that back, and now we're talking about working, and I would say traditionally, we talk data warehouse. Data warehouse and big data are now becoming a single mesh, all right? And the use cases and the way you can use those, especially I'm taking that edge data and bringing it back over, now I'm running AI and ML models on it, and I'm pushing back to the edge, and I'm combining that with my relational data. So that mesh there is making all the difference. We're getting new use cases that we can do with that. And it's just, and the volume of data is immense. >> Now, I love ChatGPT, but I'm hoping your data models are more accurate than ChatGPT. I never know. Sometimes it's really good, sometimes it's really bad. But enterprise, you got to be clean with your AI, don't you? >> Not only you have to be clean, you have to monitor it for bias and be ethical about it. We're really good about that. First of all with AT&T, our brand is Platinum. We take care of that. So, we may not be as cutting-edge risk takers as others, but when we go to market with an AI or an ML or a product, it's solid. >> Well hey, as telcos go, you guys are leaning into the Cloud. So I mean, that's a good starting point. Roddy, explain your role. You got an interesting title, Channel Performance Data and Tools, what's that all about? >> So literally anything with our consumer, retail, concenters' channels, all of our channels, from a data perspective and metrics perspective, what it takes to run reps, agents, all the way to leadership levels, scorecards, how you rank in the business, how you're driving the business, from sales, service, customer experience, all that data infrastructure with our great partners on the CDO side, as well as Snowflake, that comes from my team. >> And that's traditionally been done in a, I don't mean the pejorative, but we're talking about legacy, monolithic, sort of data warehouse technologies. >> Absolutely. >> We have a love-hate relationship with them. It's what we had. It's what we used, right? And now that's evolving. And you guys are leaning into the Cloud. >> Dramatic evolution. And what Snowflake's enabled for us is impeccable. We've talked about having, people have dreamed of one data warehouse for the longest time and everything in one system. Really, this is the only way that becomes a reality. The more you get in Snowflake, we can have golden source data, and instead of duplicating that 50 times across AT&T, it's in one place, we just share it, everybody leverages it, and now it's not duplicated, and the process efficiency is just incredible. >> But it really hinges on that separation of storage and compute. And we talk about the monolithic warehouse, and one of the nightmares I've lived with, is having a monolithic warehouse. And let's just go with some of my primary, traditional customers, sales, marketing and finance. They are leveraging BSS OSS data all the time. For me to coordinate a deployment, I have to make sure that each one of these units can take an outage, if it's going to be a long deployment. With the separation of storage, compute, they own their own compute cluster. So I can move faster for these people. 'Cause if finance, I can implement his code without impacting finance or marketing. This brings in CI/CD to more reality. It brings us faster to market with more features. So if he wants to implement a new comp plan for the field reps, or we're reacting to the marketplace, where one of our competitors has done something, we can do that in days, versus waiting weeks or months. >> And we've reported on this a lot. This is the brilliance of Snowflake's founders, that whole separation >> Yep. >> from compute and data. I like Dave, that you're starting with sort of the business flexibility, 'cause there's a cost element of this too. You can dial down, you can turn off compute, and then of course the whole world said, "Hey, that's a good idea." And a VC started throwing money at Amazon, but Redshift said, "Oh, we can do that too, sort of, can't turn off the compute." But I want to ask you Phil, so, >> Sure. >> it looks from my vantage point, like you're taking your Data Cloud message which was originally separate compute from storage simplification, now data sharing, automated governance, security, ultimately the marketplace. >> Phil: Right. >> Taking that same model, break down the silos into telecom, right? It's that same, >> Mm-hmm. >> sorry to use the term playbook, Frank Slootman tells me he doesn't use playbooks, but he's not a pattern matcher, but he's a situational CEO, he says. But the situation in telco calls for that type of strategy. So explain what you guys are doing in telco. >> I think there's, so, what we're launching, we launched last week, and it really was three components, right? So we had our platform as you mentioned, >> Dave: Mm-hmm. >> and that platform is being utilized by a number of different companies today. We also are adding, for telecom very specifically, we're adding capabilities in marketplace, so that service providers can not only use some of the data and apps that are in marketplace, but as well service providers can go and sell applications or sell data that they had built. And then as well, we're adding our ecosystem, it's telecom-specific. So, we're bringing partners in, technology partners, and consulting and services partners, that are very much focused on telecoms and what they do internally, but also helping them monetize new services. >> Okay, so it's not just sort of generic Snowflake into telco? You have specific value there. >> We're purposing the platform specifically for- >> Are you a telco guy? >> I am. You are, okay. >> Total telco guy absolutely. >> So there you go. You see that Snowflake is actually an interesting organizational structure, 'cause you're going after verticals, which is kind of rare for a company of your sort of inventory, I'll say, >> Absolutely. >> I don't mean that as a negative. (Dave laughs) So Dave, take us through the data journey at AT&T. It's a long history. You don't have to go back to the 1800s, but- (Dave laughs) >> Thank you for pointing out, we're a 149-year-old company. So, Jesse James was one of the original customers, (Dave laughs) and we have no longer got his data. So, I'll go back. I've been 17 years singular AT&T, and I've watched it through the whole journey of, where the monolithics were growing, when the consolidation of small, wireless carriers, and we went through that boom. And then we've gone through mergers and acquisitions. But, Hadoop came out, and it was going to solve all world hunger. And we had all the aspects of, we're going to monetize and do AI and ML, and some of the things we learned with Hadoop was, we had this monolithic warehouse, we had this file-based-structured Hadoop, but we really didn't know how to bring this all together. And we were bringing items over to the relational, and we were taking the relational and bringing it over to the warehouse, and trying to, and it was a struggle. Let's just go there. And I don't think we were the only company to struggle with that, but we learned a lot. And so now as tech is finally emerging, with the cloud, companies like Snowflake, and others that can handle that, where we can create, we were discussing earlier, but it becomes more of a conducive mesh that's interoperable. So now we're able to simplify that environment. And the cloud is a big thing on that. 'Cause you could not do this on-prem with on-prem technologies. It would be just too cost prohibitive, and too heavy of lifting, going back and forth, and managing the data. The simplicity the cloud brings with a smaller set of tools, and I'll say in the data space specifically, really allows us, maybe not a single instance of data for all use cases, but a greatly reduced ecosystem. And when you simplify your ecosystem, you simplify speed to market and data management. >> So I'm going to ask you, I know it's kind of internal organizational plumbing, but it'll inform my next question. So, Dave, you're with the Chief Data Office, and Roddy, you're kind of, you all serve in the business, but you're really serving the, you're closer to those guys, they're banging on your door for- >> Absolutely. I try to keep the 130,000 users who may or may not have issues sometimes with our data and metrics, away from Dave. And he just gets a call from me. >> And he only calls when he has a problem. He's never wished me happy birthday. (Dave and Phil laugh) >> So the reason I asked that is because, you describe Dave, some of the Hadoop days, and again love-hate with that, but we had hyper-specialized roles. We still do. You've got data engineers, data scientists, data analysts, and you've got this sort of this pipeline, and it had to be this sequential pipeline. I know Snowflake and others have come to simplify that. My question to you is, how is that those roles, how are those roles changing? How is data getting closer to the business? Everybody talks about democratizing business. Are you doing that? What's a real use example? >> From our perspective, those roles, a lot of those roles on my team for years, because we're all about efficiency, >> Dave: Mm-hmm. >> we cut across those areas, and always have cut across those areas. So now we're into a space where things have been simplified, data processes and copying, we've gone from 40 data processes down to five steps now. We've gone from five steps to one step. We've gone from days, now take hours, hours to minutes, minutes to seconds. Literally we're seeing that time in and time out with Snowflake. So these resources that have spent all their time on data engineering and moving data around, are now freed up more on what they have skills for and always have, the data analytics area of the business, and driving the business forward, and new metrics and new analysis. That's some of the great operational value that we've seen here. As this simplification happens, it frees up brain power. >> So, you're pumping data from the OSS, the BSS, the OKRs everywhere >> Everywhere. >> into Snowflake? >> Scheduling systems, you name it. If you can think of what drives our retail and centers and online, all that data, scheduling system, chat data, call center data, call detail data, all of that enters into this common infrastructure to manage the business on a day in and day out basis. >> How are the roles and the skill sets changing? 'Cause you're doing a lot less ETL, you're doing a lot less moving of data around. There were guys that were probably really good at that. I used to joke in the, when I was in the storage world, like if your job is bandaging lungs, you need to look for a new job, right? So, and they did and people move on. So, are you able to sort of redeploy those assets, and those people, those human resources? >> These folks are highly skilled. And we were talking about earlier, SQL hasn't gone away. Relational databases are not going away. And that's one thing that's made this migration excellent, they're just transitioning their skills. Experts in legacy systems are now rapidly becoming experts on the Snowflake side. And it has not been that hard a transition. There are certainly nuances, things that don't operate as well in the cloud environment that we have to learn and optimize. But we're making that transition. >> Dave: So just, >> Please. >> within the Chief Data Office we have a couple of missions, and Roddy is a great partner and an example of how it works. We try to bring the data for democratization, so that we have one interface, now hopefully know we just have a logical connection back to these Snowflake instances that we connect. But we're providing that governance and cleansing, and if there's a business rule at the enterprise level, we provide it. But the goal at CDO is to make sure that business units like Roddy or marketing or finance, that they can come to a platform that's reliable, robust, and self-service. I don't want to be in his way. So I feel like I'm providing a sub-level of platform, that he can come to and anybody can come to, and utilize, that they're not having to go back and undo what's in Salesforce, or ServiceNow, or in our billers. So, I'm sort of that layer. And then making sure that that ecosystem is robust enough for him to use. >> And that self-service infrastructure is predominantly through the Azure Cloud, correct? >> Dave: Absolutely. >> And you work on other clouds, but it's predominantly through Azure? >> We're predominantly in Azure, yeah. >> Dave: That's the first-party citizen? >> Yeah. >> Okay, I like to think in terms sometimes of data products, and I know you've mentioned upfront, you're Gold standard or Platinum standard, you're very careful about personal information. >> Dave: Yeah. >> So you're not trying to sell, I'm an AT&T customer, you're not trying to sell my data, and make money off of my data. So the value prop and the business case for Snowflake is it's simpler. You do things faster, you're in the cloud, lower cost, et cetera. But I presume you're also in the business, AT&T, of making offers and creating packages for customers. I look at those as data products, 'cause it's not a, I mean, yeah, there's a physical phone, but there's data products behind it. So- >> It ultimately is, but not everybody always sees it that way. Data reporting often can be an afterthought. And we're making it more on the forefront now. >> Yeah, so I like to think in terms of data products, I mean even if the financial services business, it's a data business. So, if we can think about that sort of metaphor, do you see yourselves as data product builders? Do you have that, do you think about building products in that regard? >> Within the Chief Data Office, we have a data product team, >> Mm-hmm. >> and by the way, I wouldn't be disingenuous if I said, oh, we're very mature in this, but no, it's where we're going, and it's somewhat of a journey, but I've got a peer, and their whole job is to go from, especially as we migrate from cloud, if Roddy or some other group was using tables three, four and five and joining them together, it's like, "Well look, this is an offer for data product, so let's combine these and put it up in the cloud, and here's the offer data set product, or here's the opportunity data product," and it's a journey. We're on the way, but we have dedicated staff and time to do this. >> I think one of the hardest parts about that is the organizational aspects of it. Like who owns the data now, right? It used to be owned by the techies, and increasingly the business lines want to have access, you're providing self-service. So there's a discussion about, "Okay, what is a data product? Who's responsible for that data product? Is it in my P&L or your P&L? Somebody's got to sign up for that number." So, it sounds like those discussions are taking place. >> They are. And, we feel like we're more the, and CDO at least, we feel more, we're like the guardians, and the shepherds, but not the owners. I mean, we have a role in it all, but he owns his metrics. >> Yeah, and even from our perspective, we see ourselves as an enabler of making whatever AT&T wants to make happen in terms of the key products and officers' trade-in offers, trade-in programs, all that requires this data infrastructure, and managing reps and agents, and what they do from a channel performance perspective. We still ourselves see ourselves as key enablers of that. And we've got to be flexible, and respond quickly to the business. >> I always had empathy for the data engineer, and he or she had to service all these different lines of business with no business context. >> Yeah. >> Like the business knows good data from bad data, and then they just pound that poor individual, and they're like, "Okay, I'm doing my best. It's just ones and zeros to me." So, it sounds like that's, you're on that path. >> Yeah absolutely, and I think, we do have refined, getting more and more refined owners of, since Snowflake enables these golden source data, everybody sees me and my organization, channel performance data, go to Roddy's team, we have a great team, and we go to Dave in terms of making it all happen from a data infrastructure perspective. So we, do have a lot more refined, "This is where you go for the golden source, this is where it is, this is who owns it. If you want to launch this product and services, and you want to manage reps with it, that's the place you-" >> It's a strong story. So Chief Data Office doesn't own the data per se, but it's your responsibility to provide the self-service infrastructure, and make sure it's governed properly, and in as automated way as possible. >> Well, yeah, absolutely. And let me tell you more, everybody talks about single version of the truth, one instance of the data, but there's context to that, that we are taking, trying to take advantage of that as we do data products is, what's the use case here? So we may have an entity of Roddy as a prospective customer, and we may have a entity of Roddy as a customer, high-value customer over here, which may have a different set of mix of data and all, but as a data product, we can then create those for those specific use cases. Still point to the same data, but build it in different constructs. One for marketing, one for sales, one for finance. By the way, that's where your data engineers are struggling. >> Yeah, yeah, of course. So how do I serve all these folks, and really have the context-common story in telco, >> Absolutely. >> or are these guys ahead of the curve a little bit? Or where would you put them? >> I think they're definitely moving a lot faster than the industry is generally. I think the enabling technologies, like for instance, having that single copy of data that everybody sees, a single pane of glass, right, that's definitely something that everybody wants to get to. Not many people are there. I think, what AT&T's doing, is most definitely a little bit further ahead than the industry generally. And I think the successes that are coming out of that, and the learning experiences are starting to generate momentum within AT&T. So I think, it's not just about the product, and having a product now that gives you a single copy of data. It's about the experiences, right? And now, how the teams are getting trained, domains like network engineering for instance. They typically haven't been a part of data discussions, because they've got a lot of data, but they're focused on the infrastructure. >> Mm. >> So, by going ahead and deploying this platform, for platform's purpose, right, and the business value, that's one thing, but also to start bringing, getting that experience, and bringing new experience in to help other groups that traditionally hadn't been data-centric, that's also a huge step ahead, right? So you need to enable those groups. >> A big complaint of course we hear at MWC from carriers is, "The over-the-top guys are killing us. They're riding on our networks, et cetera, et cetera. They have all the data, they have all the client relationships." Do you see your client relationships changing as a result of sort of your data culture evolving? >> Yes, I'm not sure I can- >> It's a loaded question, I know. >> Yeah, and then I, so, we want to start embedding as much into our network on the proprietary value that we have, so we can start getting into that OTT play, us as any other carrier, we have distinct advantages of what we can do at the edge, and we just need to start exploiting those. But you know, 'cause whether it's location or whatnot, so we got to eat into that. Historically, the network is where we make our money in, and we stack the services on top of it. It used to be *69. >> Dave: Yeah. >> If anybody remembers that. >> Dave: Yeah, of course. (Dave laughs) >> But you know, it was stacked on top of our network. Then we stack another product on top of it. It'll be in the edge where we start providing distinct values to other partners as we- >> I mean, it's a great business that you're in. I mean, if they're really good at connectivity. >> Dave: Yeah. >> And so, it sounds like it's still to be determined >> Dave: Yeah. >> where you can go with this. You have to be super careful with private and for personal information. >> Dave: Yep. >> Yeah, but the opportunities are enormous. >> There's a lot. >> Yeah, particularly at the edge, looking at, private networks are just an amazing opportunity. Factories and name it, hospital, remote hospitals, remote locations. I mean- >> Dave: Connected cars. >> Connected cars are really interesting, right? I mean, if you start communicating car to car, and actually drive that, (Dave laughs) I mean that's, now we're getting to visit Xen Fault Tolerance people. This is it. >> Dave: That's not, let's hold the traffic. >> Doesn't scare me as much as we actually learn. (all laugh) >> So how's the show been for you guys? >> Dave: Awesome. >> What're your big takeaways from- >> Tremendous experience. I mean, someone who doesn't go outside the United States much, I'm a homebody. The whole experience, the whole trip, city, Mobile World Congress, the technologies that are out here, it's been a blast. >> Anything, top two things you learned, advice you'd give to others, your colleagues out in general? >> In general, we talked a lot about technologies today, and we talked a lot about data, but I'm going to tell you what, the accelerator that you cannot change, is the relationship that we have. So when the tech and the business can work together toward a common goal, and it's a partnership, you get things done. So, I don't know how many CDOs or CIOs or CEOs are out there, but this connection is what accelerates and makes it work. >> And that is our audience Dave. I mean, it's all about that alignment. So guys, I really appreciate you coming in and sharing your story in "theCUBE." Great stuff. >> Thank you. >> Thanks a lot. >> All right, thanks everybody. Thank you for watching. I'll be right back with Dave Nicholson. Day four SiliconANGLE's coverage of MWC '23. You're watching "theCUBE." (gentle music)

>>The Cube presents Ignite 22, brought to you by Palo Alto Networks. >>Welcome back everyone. We're so glad that you're still with us. It's the Cube Live at the MGM Grand. This is our second day of coverage of Palo Alto Networks Ignite. This is takeaways from Ignite 22. Lisa Martin here with two really smart guys, Dave Valante. Dave, we're joined by one of our cube alumni, a friend, a friend of the, we say friend of the Cube. >>Yeah, otc. A friend of the Cube >>Karala joined us. Guys, it's great to have you here. It's been an exciting show. A lot of cybersecurity is one of my favorite topics to talk about. But I'd love to get some of the big takeaways from both of you. Dave, we'll start with you. >>A breathing room from two weeks ago. Yeah, that was, that was really pleasant. You know, I mean, I know was, yes, you sat in the analyst program, interested in what your takeaways were from there. But, you know, coming into this, we wrote a piece, Palo Alto's Gold Standard, what they need to do to, to keep that, that status. And we hear it a lot about consolidation. That's their big theme now, which is timely, right? Cause people wanna save money, they wanna do more with less. But I'm really interested in hearing zeus's thoughts on how that's playing in the market. How customers, how easy is it to just say, oh, hey, I'm gonna consolidate. I wanna get into that a little bit with you, how well the strategy's working. We're gonna get into some of the m and a activity and really bring your perspectives to the table. Well, >>It's, it's not easy. I mean, people have been calling for the consolidation of security for decades, and it's, it's, they're the first company that's actually made it happen. Right? And, and I think this is what we're seeing here is the culmination of this long term strategy, this company trying to build more of a platform. And they, you know, they, they came out as a firewall vendor. And I think it's safe to say they're more than firewall today. That's only about two thirds of their revenue now. So down from 80% a few years ago. And when I think of what Palo Alto has become, they're really a data company. Now, if you look at, you know, unit 42 in Cortex, the, the, the Cortex Data Lake, they've done an excellent job of taking telemetry from their products and from the acquisitions they have, right? And bringing that together into one big data lake. >>And then they're able to use that to, to do faster threat notification, forensics, things like that. And so I think the old model of security of create signatures for known threats, it's safe to say it never really worked and it wasn't ever gonna work. You had too many day zero exploits and things. The only way to fight security today is with a AI and ML based analytics. And they have, they're the gold standard. I think the one thing about your post that I would add the gold standard from a data standpoint, and that's given them this competitive advantage to go out and become a platform for a security. Which, like I said, the people have tried to do that for years. And the first one that's actually done it, well, >>We've heard this from some of the startups, like Lacework will say, oh, we treat security as a data problem. Of course there's a startup, Palo Alto's got, you know, whatever, 10, 15 years of, of, of history. But one of the things I wanted to explore with you coming into this was the notion of can you be best of breed and develop a suite? And we, we've been hearing a consistent answer to that question, which is, and, and do you need to, and the answer is, well, best of breed in security requires that full spectrum, that full view. So here's my question to you. So, okay, let's take Esty win relatively new for these guys, right? Yeah. Okay. And >>And one of the few products are not top two, top three in, right? Exactly. >>Yeah. So that's why I want to take that. Yeah. Because in bakeoffs, they're gonna lose on a head-to-head best of breed. And so the customer's gonna say, Hey, you know, I love your, your consolidation play, your esty win's. Just, okay, how about a little discount on that? And you know, these guys are premium priced. Yes. So, you know, are they in essentially through their pricing strategies, sort of creating that stuff, fighting that, is that friction for them where they've got, you know, the customer says, all right, well forget it, we're gonna go stove pipe with the SD WAN will consolidate some of the stuff. Are you seeing that? >>Yeah, I, I, I still think the sales model is that way. And I think that's something they need to work on changing. If they get into a situation where they have to get down into a feature battle of my SD WAN versus your SD wan, my firewall versus your firewall, frankly they've already lost, you know, because their value prop is the suite and, and is the platform. And I was talking to the CISO here that told me, he realizes now that you don't need best of breed everywhere to have best in class threat protection. In fact, best of breed everywhere leads to suboptimal threat protection. Cuz you have all these data data sets that are in silos, right? And so from a data scientist standpoint, right, there's the good data leads to good insights. Well, partial data leads to fragmented insights and that's, that's what the best, best of breed approach gives you. And so I was talking with Palo about this, can they have this vision of being best of breed and platform? I don't really think you can maintain best of breed everywhere across this portfolio this big, but you don't need to. >>That was my second point of my >>Question. That's the point. >>Yeah. And so, cuz cuz because you know, we've talked about this, that that sweets always win in the long run, >>Sweets >>Win. Yeah. But here's the thing, I, I wonder to your your point about, you know, the customer, you know, understanding that that that, that this resonates with them. I, my guess is a lot of customers, you know, at that mid-level and the fat middle are like still sort of wed, you know, hugging that, that tool. So there's, there's work to be done here, but I think they, they, they got it right Because if they devolve, to your point, if they devolve down to that speeds and feeds, eh, what's the point of that? Where's their valuable? >>You do not wanna get into a knife fight. And I, and I, and I think for them the, a big challenge now is convincing customers that the suite, the suite approach does work. And they have to be able to do that in actual customer examples. And so, you know, I I interviewed a bunch of customers here and the ones that have bought into XDR and xor and even are looking at their sim have told me that the, the, so think of soc operations, the old way heavily manually oriented, right? You have multiple panes of glass and you know, and then you've got, so there's a lot of people work before you bring the tools in, right? If done correctly with AI and ml, the machines would do all the heavy lifting and then you'd bring people in at the end to clean up the little bits that were missed, right? >>And so you, you moved to, from something that was very people heavy to something that's machine heavy and machines can work a lot faster than people. And the, and so the ones that I've talked that have, that have done that have said, look, our engineers have moved on to a lot different things. They're doing penetration testing, they're, you know, helping us with, with strategy and they're not fighting that, that daily fight of looking through log files. And the only proof point you need, Dave, is look at every big breach that we've had over the last five years. There's some SIM vendor up there that says, we caught it. Yeah. >>Yeah. We we had the data. >>Yeah. But, but, but the security team missed it. Well they missed it because you're, nobody can look at that much data manually. And so the, I I think their approach of relying heavily on machines to fight the fight is actually the right way. >>Is that a differentiator for them versus, we were talking before we went live that you and I first hit our very first segment back in 2017 at Fort Net. Is that, where do the two stand in your >>Yeah, it's funny cuz if you talk to the two vendors, they don't really see each other in a lot of accounts because Fort Net's more small market mid-market. It's the same strategy to some degree where Fort Net relies heavily on in-house development and Palo Alto relies heavily on acquisition. Yeah. And so I think from a consistently feature set, you know, Fort Net has an advantage there because it, it's all run off their, their their silicon. Where, where Palo's able to innovate very quickly. The, it it requires a lot of work right? To, to bring the front end and back ends together. But they're serving different markets. So >>Do you see that as a differentiator? The integration strategy that Palo Alto has as a differentiator? We talk to so many companies who have an a strong m and a strategy and, and execution arm. But the challenge is always integrating the technology so that the customer to, you know, ultimately it's the customer. >>I actually think they're, they're underrated as a, an acquirer. In fact, Dave wrote a post to a prior on Silicon Angle prior to Accelerate and he, he on, you put it on Twitter and you asked people to rank 'em as an acquirer and they were in the middle of the pack, >>Right? It was, it was. So it was Oracle, VMware, emc, ibm, Cisco, ServiceNow, and Palo Alto. Yeah. Or Oracle got very high marks. It was like 8.5 out of, you know, 10. Yeah. VMware I think was 6.5. Nice. Era was high emc, big range. IBM five to seven. Cisco was three to eight. Yeah. Yeah, right. ServiceNow was a seven. And then, yeah, Palo Alto was like a five. And I, which I think it was unfair. >>Well, and I think it depends on how you look at it. And I, so I think a lot of the acquisitions Palo Altos made, they've done a good job of integrating their backend data and they've almost ignored the front end. And so when you buy some of the products, it's a little clunky today. You know, if you work with Prisma Cloud, it could be a little bit cleaner. And even with, you know, the SD wan that took 'em a long time to bring CloudGenix in and stuff. But I think the approach is right. I don't, I don't necessarily believe you should integrate the front end until you've integrated the back end. >>That's >>The hard part, right? Because UL ultimately what you're gonna get, you're gonna get two panes of glass and one pane of glass and it might look pretty all mush together, but ultimately you're not solving the bigger problem, right. Of, of being able to create that big data like the, the fight security. And so I think, you know, the approach they've taken is the right one. I think from a user standpoint, maybe it doesn't show up as neatly because you don't see the frontend integration, but the way they're doing it is the right way to do it. And I'm glad they're doing it that way versus caving to the pressures of what, you know, the industry might want >>Showed up in the performance of the company. I mean, this company was basically gonna double revenues to 7 billion from 2020 to >>2023. Three. Think about that at that, that >>Make a, that's unbelievable, right? I mean, and then and they wanna double again. Yeah. You know, so, well >>What did, what did Nikesh was quoted as saying they wanna be the first cyber company that's a hundred billion dollars. He didn't give a timeline market cap. >>Right. >>Market cap, right. Do what I wanna get both of your opinions on what you saw and heard and felt this week. What do you think the likelihood is? And and do you have any projections on how, you know, how many years it's gonna take for them to get there? >>Well, >>Well I think so if they're gonna get that big, right? And, and we were talking about this pre-show, any company that's becoming a big company does it through ecosystem >>Bingo. >>Right? And that when you look around the show floor, it's not that impressive. And if that, if there's an area they need to focus on, it's building that ecosystem. And it's not with other security vendors, it's with application vendors and it's with the cloud companies and stuff. And they've got some relationships there, but they need to do more. I actually challenge 'em on that. One of the analyst sessions. They said, look, we've got 800 cortex partners. Well where are they? Right? Why isn't there a cortex stand here with a bunch of the small companies here? So I do think that that is an area they need to focus on. If they are gonna get to that, that market caps number, they will do so do so through ecosystem. Because every company that's achieved that has done it through ecosystem. >>A hundred percent agree. And you know, if you look at CrowdStrike's ecosystem, it's pretty similar. Yeah. You know, it doesn't really, you know, make much, much, not much different from this, but I went back and just looked at some, you know, peak valuations during the pandemic and shortly thereafter CrowdStrike was 70 billion. You know, that's what their roughly their peak Palo Alto was 56, fortune was 59 for the actually diverged. Right. And now Palo Alto has taken the, the top mantle, you know, today it's market cap's 52. So it's held 93% of its peak value. Everybody else is tanking. Even Okta was 45 billion. It's been crushed as you well know. But, so Palo Alto wasn't always, you know, the number one in terms of market cap. But I guess my point is, look, if CrowdStrike could got to 70 billion during Yeah. During the frenzy, I think it's gonna take, to answer your question, I think it's gonna be five years. Okay. Before they get back there. I think this market's gonna be tough for a while from a valuation standpoint. I think generally tech is gonna kind of go up and down and sideways for a good year and a half, maybe even two years could be even longer. And then I think there's gonna be some next wave of productivity innovation that that hits. And then you're gonna, you're almost always gonna exceed the previous highs. It's gonna take a while. Yeah, >>Yeah, yeah. But I think their ability to disrupt the SIM market actually is something I, I believe they're gonna do. I've been calling for the death of the sim for a long time and I know some people at Palo Alto are very cautious about saying that cuz the Splunks and the, you know, they're, they're their partners. But I, I think the, you know, it's what I said before, the, the tools are catching them, but they're, it's not in a way that's useful for the IT pro and, but I, I don't think the SIM vendors have that ecosystem of insight across network cloud endpoint. Right. Which is what you need in order to make a sim useful. >>CISO at an ETR roundtable said, if, if it weren't for my regulators, I would chuck my sim. >>Yes. >>But that's the only reason that, that this person was keeping it. So, >>Yeah. And I think the, the fact that most of those companies have moved to a perpetual MO or a a recurring revenue model actually helps unseat them. Typically when you pour a bunch of money into something, you remember the old computer associate days, nobody ever took it out cuz the sunk dollars you spent to do it. But now that you're paying an annual recurring fee, it's actually makes it easier to take out. So >>Yeah, it's it's an ebb and flow, right? Yeah. Because the maintenance costs were, you know, relatively low. Maybe it was 20% of the total. And then, you know, once every five years you had to do a refresh and you were still locked into the sort of maintenance and, and so yeah, I think you're right. The switching costs with sas, you know, in theory anyway, should be less >>Yeah. As long as you can migrate the data over. And I think they've got a pretty good handle on that. So, >>Yeah. So guys, I wanna get your perspective as a whole bunch of announcements here. We've only been here for a couple days, not a big conference as, as you can see from behind us. What Zs in your opinion was Palo Alto's main message and and what do you think about it main message at this event? And then same question for you. >>Yeah, I, I think their message largely wrapped around disruption, right? And, and they, in The's keynote already talked about that, right? And where they disrupted the firewall market by creating a NextGen firewall. In fact, if you look at all the new services they added to their firewall, you, you could almost say it's a NextGen NextGen firewall. But, but I do think the, the work they've done in the area of cloud and cortex actually I think is, is pretty impressive. And I think that's the, the SOC is ripe for disruption because it's for, for the most part, most socks still, you know, run off legacy playbooks. They run off legacy, you know, forensic models and things and they don't work. It's why we have so many breaches today. The, the dirty little secret that nobody ever wants to talk about is the bad guys are using machine learning, right? And so if you're using a signature based model, all they're do is tweak their model a little bit and it becomes, it bypasses them. So I, I think the only way to fight the the bad guys today is with you gotta fight fire with fire. And I think that's, that's the path they've, they've headed >>Down and the bad guys are hiding in plain sight, you know? >>Yeah, yeah. Well it's, it's not hard to do now with a lot of those legacy tools. So >>I think, I think for me, you know, the stat that we threw out earlier, I think yesterday at our keynote analysis was, you know, the ETR data shows that are, that are that last survey around 35% of the respondents said we are actively consolidating, sorry, 44%, sorry, 35 says we're actively consolidating vendors, redundant vendors today. That number's up to 44%. Yeah. It's by far the number one cost optimization technique. That's what these guys are pitching. And I think it's gonna resonate with people and, and I think to your point, they're integrating at the backend, their beeps are technical, right? I mean, they can deal with that complexity. Yeah. And so they don't need eye candy. Eventually they, they, they want to have that cuz it'll allow 'em to have deeper market penetration and make people more productive. But you know, that consolidation message came through loud and clear. >>Yeah. The big change in this industry too is all the new startups are all cloud native, right? They're all built on Amazon or Google or whatever. Yeah. And when your cloud native and you buy a cloud native integration is fast. It's not like having to integrate this big monolithic software stack anymore. Right. So I I think their pace of integration will only accelerate from here because everything's now cloud native. >>If a customer comes to you or when a customer comes to you and says, Zs help us with this cyber transformation we have, our board isn't necessarily with our executives in terms of execution of a security strategy. How do you advise them where Palo Alto is concerned? >>Yeah. You know, a lot, a lot of this is just fighting legacy mindset. And I've, I was talking with some CISOs here from state and local governments and things and they're, you know, they can't get more budget. They're fighting the tide. But what they did find is through the use of automation technology, they're able to bring their people costs way down. Right. And then be able to use that budget to invest in a lot of new projects. And so with that, you, you have to start with your biggest pain points, apply automation where you can, and then be able to use that budget to reinvest back in your security strategy. And it's good for the IT pros too, the security pros, my advice to, to it pros is if you're doing things today that aren't resume building, stop doing them. Right? Find a way to automate the money your job. And so if you're patching systems and you're looking through log files, there's no reason machines can't do that. And you go do something a lot more interesting. >>So true. It's like storage guys 10 years ago, provisioning loans. Yes. It's like, stop doing that. Yeah. You're gonna be outta a job. And so who, last question I have is, is who do you see as the big competitors, the horses on the track question, right? So obviously Cisco kind of service has led for a while and you know, big portfolio company, CrowdStrike coming at it from end point. You know who, who, who do you see as the real players going for that? You know, right now the market's three to 4%. The leader has three, three 4% of the market. You know who they're all going for? 10, 15, maybe 20% of the market. Who, who are the likely candidates? Yeah, >>I don't know if CrowdStrike really has the breadth of portfolio to compete long term though. I I think they've had a nice run, but I, we might start to see the follow 'em. I think Microsoft is gonna be for middle. They've laid down the gauntlet, right? They are a security vendor, right? We, we were at Reinvent and a AWS is the platform for security vendors. Yes. Middle, somewhere in the middle. But Microsoft make no mistake, they're in security. They've got some good products. I think a lot of 'em are kind of good enough and they, they tie it to the licensing and I'm not sure that works in security, but they've certainly got the ear of a lot of it pros. >>It might work in smb. >>Yeah. Yeah. It, it might. And, and I do like Zscaler. I, I know these guys poo poo the proxy model, but they've, they've done about as much with proxies as you can. And I, I think it's, it's a battle of, I love the, the, the near, you know, proxies are dead and Jay's model, you know, Jay over at c skater throw 'em back at 'em. So I, it's good to see that kind of fight going on between the two. >>Oh, it's great. Well, and, and again, ZScaler's coming at it from their cloud security angle. CrowdStrike's coming at it from endpoint. I, I do think CrowdStrike has an opportunity to build out the portfolio through m and a and maybe ecosystem. And then obviously, you know, Palo Alto's getting it done. How about Cisco? >>Yeah. Cisco's interesting. And I, I think if Cisco can make the network matter in security and it should, right? We're talking about how a lot of you need a lot of forensics to fight security today. Well, they're gonna see things long before anybody else because they have all that network data. If they can tie network security, I, I mean they could really have that business take off. But we've been saying that about Cisco for 20 years. >>But big install based though. Yeah. It's hard for a company, any company to just say, okay, hey Cisco customer sweep the floor and come with us. That's, that's >>A tough thing. They have a lot of good peace parts, right? And like duo's a good product and umbrella's a good product. They've, they've not done a good job. >>They're the opposite of these guys. >>They've not done a good job of the backend integration that, that's where Cisco needs to, to focus. And I do think g G two Patel there fixed the WebEx group and I think he's now, in fact when you talk to him, he's doing very little on WebEx that that group's running itself and he's more focused in security. So I, I think we could see a resurgence there. But you know, they have a, from a revenue perspective, it's a little misleading cuz they have this big legacy base that's in decline while they're moving to cloud and stuff. So, but they, but they, there's a lot of work there're trying to, to tie to network. >>Right. Lots of fuel for conversation. We're gonna have to carry this on, on Silicon angle.com guys. Yes. And Wikibon, lets do see us. Thank you so much for joining Dave and me giving us your insights as to this event. Where are you gonna be next? Are you gonna be on vacation? >>There's nothing more fun than mean on the cube, so, right. What's outside of that though? Yeah, you know, Christmas coming up, I gotta go see family and do the obligatory, although for me that's a lot of travel, so I guess >>More planes. Yeah. >>Hopefully not in Vegas. >>Not in Vegas. >>Awesome. Nothing against Vegas. Yeah, no, >>We love it. We >>Love it. Although I will say my year started off with ces. Yeah. And it's finishing up with Palo Alto here. The bookends. Yeah, exactly. In Vegas bookends. >>Well thanks so much for joining us. Thank you Dave. Always a pleasure to host a show with you and hear your insights. Reading your breaking analysis always kicks off my prep for show and it's always great to see, but predictions come true. So thank you for being my co-host bet. All right. For Dave Valante Enz as Carla, I'm Lisa Martin. You've been watching The Cube, the leader in live, emerging and enterprise tech coverage. Thanks for watching.

>>The Cube presents Ignite 22, brought to you by Palo Alto Networks. >>Welcome back everyone. We're so glad that you're still with us. It's the Cube Live at the MGM Grand. This is our second day of coverage of Palo Alto Networks Ignite. This is takeaways from Ignite 22. Lisa Martin here with two really smart guys, Dave Valante. Dave, we're joined by one of our cube alumni, a friend, a friend of the, we say friend of the Cube. >>Yeah, F otc. A friend of the Cube >>Karala joins us. Guys, it's great to have you here. It's been an exciting show. A lot of cybersecurity is one of my favorite topics to talk about. But I'd love to get some of the big takeaways from both of you. Dave, we'll start with >>You. A breathing room from two weeks ago. Yeah, that was, that was really pleasant. You know, I mean, I know was, yes, you sat in the analyst program, interested in what your takeaways were from there. But, you know, coming into this, we wrote a piece, Palo Alto's Gold Standard, what they need to do to, to keep that, that status. And we hear it a lot about consolidation. That's their big theme now, which is timely, right? Cause people wanna save money, they wanna do more with less. But I'm really interested in hearing zeus's thoughts on how that's playing in the market. How customers, how easy is it to just say, oh, hey, I'm gonna consolidate. I wanna get into that a little bit with you, how well the strategy's working. We're gonna get into some of the m and a activity and really bring your perspectives to the table. Well, >>It's, it's not easy. I mean, people have been calling for the consolidation of security for decades, and it's, it's, they're the first company that's actually made it happen. Right? And, and I think this is what we're seeing here is the culmination of this long-term strategy, this company trying to build more of a platform. And they, you know, they, they came out as a firewall vendor. And I think it's safe to say they're more than firewall today. That's only about two thirds of their revenue now. So down from 80% a few years ago. And when I think of what Palo Alto has become, they're really a data company. Now, if you look at, you know, unit 42 in Cortex, the, the, the Cortex Data Lake, they've done an excellent job of taking telemetry from their products and from the acquisitions they have, right? And bringing that together into one big data lake. >>And then they're able to use that to, to do faster threat notification, forensics, things like that. And so I think the old model of security of create signatures for known threats, it's safe to say it never really worked and it wasn't ever gonna work. You had too many days, zero exploits and things. The only way to fight security today is with a AI and ML based analytics. And they have, they're the gold standard. I think the one thing about your post that I would add, they're the gold standard from a data standpoint. And that's given them this competitive advantage to go out and become a platform for security. Which, like I said, the people have tried to do that for years. And the first one that's actually done it, well, >>We've heard this from some of the startups, like Lacework will say, oh, we treat security as a data problem. Of course there's a startup, Palo Alto's got, you know, whatever, 10, 15 years of, of, of history. But one of the things I wanted to explore with you coming into this was the notion of can you be best of breed and develop a suite? And we, we've been hearing a consistent answer to that question, which is, and, and do you need to, and the answer is, well, best of breed in security requires that full spectrum, that full view. So here's my question to you. So, okay, let's take Estee win relatively new for these guys, right? Yeah. Okay. And >>And one of the few products are not top two, top three in, right? >>Exactly. Yeah. So that's why I want to take that. Yeah. Because in bakeoffs, they're gonna lose on a head-to-head best of breed. And so the customer's gonna say, Hey, you know, I love your, your consolidation play, your esty win's. Just, okay, how about a little discount on that? And you know, these guys are premium priced. Yes. So, you know, are they in essentially through their pricing strategies, sort of creating that stuff, fighting that, is that friction for them where they've got, you know, the customer says, all right, well forget it, we're gonna go stove pipe with the SD WAN will consolidate some of the stuff. Are you seeing that? >>Yeah, I, I, I still think the sales model is that way. And I think that's something they need to work on changing. If they get into a situation where they have to get down into a feature battle of my SD WAN versus your SD wan, my firewall versus your firewall, frankly they've already lost, you know, because their value prop is the suite and, and is the platform. And I was talking with the CISO here that told me, he realizes now that you don't need best of breed everywhere to have best in class threat protection. In fact, best of breed everywhere leads to suboptimal threat protection. Cuz you have all these data data sets that are in silos, right? And so from a data scientist standpoint, right, there's the good data leads to good insights. Well, partial data leads to fragmented insights and that's, that's what the best, best of breed approach gives you. And so I was talking with Palo about this, can they have this vision of being best of breed and platform? I don't really think you can maintain best of breed everywhere across this portfolio this big, but you don't need to. >>That was my second point of my question. That's the point I'm saying. Yeah. And so, cuz cuz because you know, we've talked about this, that that sweets always win in the long run, >>Sweets win. >>Yeah. But here's the thing, I, I wonder to your your point about, you know, the customer, you know, understanding that that that, that this resonates with them. I, my guess is a lot of customers, you know, at that mid-level and the fat middle are like still sort of wed, you know, hugging that, that tool. So there's, there's work to be done here, but I think they, they, they got it right Because if they devolve, to your point, if they devolve down to that speeds and feeds, eh, what's the point of that? Where's their >>Valuable? You do not wanna get into a knife fight. And I, and I, and I think for them the, a big challenge now is convincing customers that the suite, the suite approach does work. And they have to be able to do that in actual customer examples. And so, you know, I I interviewed a bunch of customers here and the ones that have bought into XDR and xor and even are looking at their sim have told me that the, the, so think of soc operations, the old way heavily manually oriented, right? You have multiple panes of glass and you know, and then you've got, so there's a lot of people work before you bring the tools in, right? If done correctly with AI and ml, the machines would do all the heavy lifting and then you'd bring people in at the end to clean up the little bits that were missed, right? >>And so you, you moved to, from something that was very people heavy to something that's machine heavy and machines can work a lot faster than people. And the, and so the ones that I've talked that have, that have done that have said, look, our engineers have moved on to a lot different things. They're doing penetration testing, they're, you know, helping us with, with strategy and they're not fighting that, that daily fight of looking through log files. And the only proof point you need, Dave, is look at every big breach that we've had over the last five years. There's some SIM vendor up there that says, we caught it. Yeah. >>Yeah. We we had the data. >>Yeah. But, but, but the security team missed it. Well they missed it because you're, nobody can look at that much data manually. And so the, I I think their approach of relying heavily on machines to fight the fight is actually the right way. >>Is that a differentiator for them versus, we were talking before we went live that you and I first hit our very first segment back in 2017 at Fort Net. Is that, where do the two stand in your >>Yeah, it's funny cuz if you talk to the two vendors, they don't really see each other in a lot of accounts because Fort Net's more small market mid-market. It's the same strategy to some degree where Fort Net relies heavily on in-house development in Palo Alto relies heavily on acquisition. Yeah. And so I think from a consistently feature set, you know, Fort Net has an advantage there because it, it's all run off their, their their silicon. Where, where Palo's able to innovate very quickly. The, it it requires a lot of work right? To, to bring the front end and back ends together. But they're serving different markets. So >>Do you see that as a differentiator? The integration strategy that Palo Alto has as a differentiator? We talk to so many companies who have an a strong m and a strategy and, and execution arm. But the challenge is always integrating the technology so that the customer to, you know, ultimately it's the customer. >>I actually think they're, they're underrated as a, an acquirer. In fact, Dave wrote a post to a prior on Silicon Angle prior to Accelerate and he, he on, you put it on Twitter and you asked people to rank 'em as an acquirer and they were in the middle of the pack, >>Right? It was, it was. So it was Oracle, VMware, emc, ibm, Cisco, ServiceNow, and Palo Alto. Yeah. Or Oracle got very high marks. It was like 8.5 out of, you know, 10. Yeah. VMware I think was 6.5. Naira was high emc, big range. IBM five to seven. Cisco was three to eight. Yeah. Yeah, right. ServiceNow was a seven. And then, yeah, Palo Alto was like a five. And I, which I think it was unfair. Well, >>And I think it depends on how you look at it. And I, so I think a lot of the acquisitions Palo Alto's made, they've done a good job of integrating the backend data and they've almost ignored the front end. And so when you buy some of the products, it's a little clunky today. You know, if you work with Prisma Cloud, it could be a little bit cleaner. And even with, you know, the SD wan that took 'em a long time to bring CloudGenix in and stuff. But I think the approach is right. I don't, I don't necessarily believe you should integrate the front end until you've integrated the back end. >>That's >>The hard part, right? Because UL ultimately what you're gonna get, you're gonna get two panes of glass and one pane of glass and it might look pretty and all mush together, but ultimately you're not solving the bigger problem, right. Of, of being able to create that big data lake to, to fight security. And so I think, you know, the approach they've taken is the right one. I think from a user standpoint, maybe it doesn't show up as neatly because you don't see the frontend integration, but the way they're doing it is the right way to do it. And I'm glad they're doing it that way versus caving to the pressures of what, you know, the industry might want or >>Showed up in the performance of the company. I mean, this company was basically gonna double revenues to 7 billion from 2020 to >>2023. Think about that at that. That makes, >>I mean that's unbelievable, right? I mean, and then and they wanna double again. Yeah. You know, so, well >>What did, what did Nikesh was quoted as saying they wanna be the first cyber company that's a hundred billion dollars. He didn't give a timeline market >>Cap. Right. >>Market cap, right. Do what I wanna get both of your opinions on what you saw and heard and felt this week. What do you think the likelihood is? And and do you have any projections on how, you know, how many years it's gonna take for them to get there? >>Well, >>Well I think so if they're gonna get that big, right? And, and we were talking about this pre-show, any company that's becoming a big company does it through ecosystem >>Bingo >>Go, right? And that when you look around the show floor, it's not that impressive. No. And if that, if there's an area they need to focus on, it's building that ecosystem. And it's not with other security vendors, it's with application vendors and it's with the cloud companies and stuff. And they've got some relationships there, but they need to do more. I actually challenge 'em on that. One of the analyst sessions. They said, look, we've got 800 cortex partners. Well where are they? Right? Why isn't there a cortex stand here with a bunch of the small companies here? So I do think that that is an area they need to focus on. If they are gonna get to that, that market caps number, they will do so do so through ecosystem. Because every company that's achieved that has done it through ecosystem. >>A hundred percent agree. And you know, if you look at CrowdStrike's ecosystem, it's, I mean, pretty similar. Yeah. You know, it doesn't really, you know, make much, much, not much different from this, but I went back and just looked at some, you know, peak valuations during the pandemic and shortly thereafter CrowdStrike was 70 billion. You know, that's what their roughly their peak Palo Alto was 56, fortune was 59 for the actually diverged. Right. And now Palo Alto has taken the, the top mantle, you know, today it's market cap's 52. So it's held 93% of its peak value. Everybody else is tanking. Even Okta was 45 billion. It's been crushed as you well know. But, so Palo Alto wasn't always, you know, the number one in terms of market cap. But I guess my point is, look, if CrowdStrike could got to 70 billion during Yeah. During the frenzy, I think it's gonna take, to answer your question, I think it's gonna be five years. Okay. Before they get back there. I think this market's gonna be tough for a while from a valuation standpoint. I think generally tech is gonna kind of go up and down and sideways for a good year and a half, maybe even two years could be even longer. And then I think there's gonna be some next wave of productivity innovation that that hits. And then you're gonna, you're almost always gonna exceed the previous highs. It's gonna take a while. Yeah. >>Yeah, yeah. But I think their ability to disrupt the SIM market actually is something that I, I believe they're gonna do. I've been calling for the death of the sim for a long time and I know some people of Palo Alto are very cautious about saying that cuz the Splunks and the, you know, they're, they're their partners. But I, I think the, you know, it's what I said before, the, the tools are catching them, but they're, it's not in a way that's useful for the IT pro and, but I, I don't think the SIM vendors have that ecosystem of insight across network cloud endpoint. Right. Which is what you need in order to make a sim useful. >>CISO at an ETR round table said, if, if it weren't for my regulators, I would chuck my sim. >>Yes. >>But that's the only reason that, that this person was keeping it. No. >>Yeah. And I think the, the fact that most of those companies have moved to a perpetual MO or a a recurring revenue model actually helps unseat them. Typically when you pour a bunch of money into something, you remember the old computer associate says nobody ever took it out cuz the sunk dollars you spent to do it. But now that you're paying an annual recurring fee, it's actually makes it easier to take out. So >>Yeah, it's just an ebb and flow, right? Yeah. Because the maintenance costs were, you know, relatively low. Maybe it was 20% of the total. And then, you know, once every five years you had to do a refresh and you were still locked into the sort of maintenance and, and so yeah, I think you're right. The switching costs with sas, you know, in theory anyway, should be less >>Yeah. As long as you can migrate the data over. And I think they've got a pretty good handle on that. So, >>Yeah. So guys, I wanna get your perspective as a whole bunch of announcements here. We've only been here for a couple days, not a big conference as, as you can see from behind us. What Zs in your opinion was Palo Alto's main message and and what do you think about it main message at this event? And then same question for you. >>Yeah, I, I think their message largely wrapped around disruption, right? And, and they, and The's keynote already talked about that, right? And where they disrupted the firewall market by creating a NextGen firewall. In fact, if you look at all the new services they added to their firewall, you, you could almost say it's a NextGen NextGen firewall. But, but I do think the, the work they've done in the area of cloud and cortex actually I think is, is pretty impressive. And I think that's the, the SOC is ripe for disruption because it's for, for the most part, most socks still, you know, run off legacy playbooks. They run off legacy, you know, forensic models and things and they don't work. It's why we have so many breaches today. The, the dirty little secret that nobody ever wants to talk about is the bad guys are using machine learning, right? And so if you're using a signature based model, all they gotta do is tweak their model a little bit and it becomes, it bypasses them. So I, I think the only way to fight the the bad guys today is with you're gonna fight fire with fire. And I think that's, that's the path they've, they've headed >>Down. Yeah. The bad guys are hiding in plain sight, you know? Yeah, >>Yeah. Well it's, it's not hard to do now with a lot of those legacy tools. So >>I think, I think for me, you know, the stat that we threw out earlier, I think yesterday at our keynote analysis was, you know, the ETR data shows that are, that are that last survey around 35% of the respondents said we are actively consolidating, sorry, 44%, sorry, 35 says who are actively consolidating vendors, redundant vendors today that number's up to 44%. Yeah. It's by far the number one cost optimization technique. That's what these guys are pitching. And I think it's gonna resonate with people and, and I think to your point, they're integrating at the backend, their beeps are technical, right? I mean, they can deal with that complexity. Yeah. And so they don't need eye candy. Eventually they, they, they want to have that cuz it'll allow 'em to have deeper market penetration and make people more productive. But you know, that consolidation message came through loud and clear. >>Yeah. The big change in this industry too is all the new startups are all cloud native, right? They're all built on Amazon or Google or whatever. Yeah. And when your cloud native and you buy a cloud native integration is fast. It's not like having to integrate this big monolithic software stack anymore. Right. So I, I think their pace of integration will only accelerate from here because everything's now cloud native. >>If a customer comes to you or when a customer comes to you and says, Zs help us with this cyber transformation we have, our board isn't necessarily aligned with our executives in terms of execution of a security strategy. How do you advise them where Palo Alto is concerned? >>Yeah. You know, a lot, a lot of this is just fighting legacy mindset. And I've, I was talking with some CISOs here from state and local governments and things and they're, you know, they can't get more budget. They're fighting the tide. But what they did find is through the use of automation technology, they're able to bring their people costs way down. Right. And then be able to use that budget to invest in a lot of new projects. And so with that, you, you have to start with your biggest pain points, apply automation where you can, and then be able to use that budget to reinvest back in your security strategy. And it's good for the IT pros too, the security pros, my advice to the IT pros is, is if you're doing things today that aren't resume building, stop doing them. Right. Find a way to automate the money your job. And so if you're patching systems and you're looking through log files, there's no reason machines can't do that. And you go do something a lot more interesting. >>So true. It's like storage guys 10 years ago, provisioning loans. Yes. It's like, stop doing that. Yeah. You're gonna be outta a job. So who, last question I have is, is who do you see as the big competitors, the horses on the track question, right? So obviously Cisco kind of service has led for a while and you know, big portfolio company, CrowdStrike coming at it from end point. You know who, who, who do you see as the real players going for that? You know, right now the market's three to 4%. The leader has three, three 4% of the market. You know who they're all going for? 10, 15, maybe 20% of the market. Who, who are the likely candidates? Yeah, >>I don't know if CrowdStrike really has the breadth of portfolio to compete long term though. I I think they've had a nice run, but I, we might start to see the follow 'em. I think Microsoft is gonna be for middle. They've laid down the gauntlet, right? They are a security vendor, right? We, we were at Reinvent and a AWS is the platform for security vendors. Yes. Middle, somewhere in the middle. But Microsoft make no mistake, they're in security. They've got some good products. I think a lot of 'em are kind of good enough and they, they tie it to the licensing and I'm not sure that works in security, but they've certainly got the ear of a lot of it pros. >>It might work in smb. >>Yeah, yeah. It, it might. And, and I do like Zscaler. I, I know these guys poo poo the proxy model, but they've, they've done about as much with prox as you can. And I, I think it's, it's a battle of, I love the, the, the near, you know, proxies are dead and Jay's model, you know, Jay over at csca, throw 'em back at 'em. So I, it's good to see that kind of fight going on between the >>Two. Oh, it's great. Well, and, and again, ZScaler's coming at it from their cloud security angle. CrowdStrike's coming at it from endpoint. I, I do think CrowdStrike has an opportunity to build out the portfolio through m and a and maybe ecosystem. And then obviously, you know, Palo Alto's getting it done. How about Cisco? >>Yeah, Cisco's interesting. And I I think if Cisco can make the network matter in security and it should, right? We're talking about how a lot of you need a lot of forensics to fight security today. Well, they're gonna see things long before anybody else because they have all that network data. If they can tie network security, I, I mean they could really have that business take off. But we've been saying that about Cisco for 20 years. >>But big install based though. Yeah. It's hard for a company, any company to say, okay, hey Cisco customer sweep the floor and come with us. That's, that's >>A tough thing. They have a lot of good peace parts, right? And like duo's a good product and umbrella's a good product. They've, they've not done a good job. >>They're the opposite of these guys. >>They've not done a good job of the backend integration and that, that's where Cisco needs to, to focus. And I do think g G two Patel there fixed the WebEx group and I think he's now, in fact when you talk to him, he's doing very little on WebEx that that group's running itself and he's more focused in security. So I, I think we could see a resurgence there. But you know, they have a, from a revenue perspective, it's a little misleading cuz they have this big legacy base that's in decline while they're moving to cloud and stuff. So, but they, but they, there's a lot of Rick there trying to, to tie to network. >>Lots of fuel for conversation. We're gonna have to carry this on, on Silicon angle.com guys. Yes. And Wi KeePon. Lets do see us. Thank you so much for joining Dave and me giving us your insights as to this event. Where are gonna be next? Are you gonna be on >>Vacation? There's nothing more fun than mean on the cube. So what's outside of that though? Yeah, you know, Christmas coming up, I gotta go see family and be the obligatory, although for me that's a lot of travel, so I guess >>More planes. Yeah. >>Hopefully not in Vegas. >>Not in Vegas. >>Awesome. Nothing against Vegas. Yeah, no, >>We love it. We love >>It. Although I will say my year started off with ces. Yeah. And it's finishing up with Palo Alto here. The bookends. Yeah, exactly. In Vegas bookends. >>Well thanks so much for joining us. Thank you Dave. Always a pleasure to host a show with you and hear your insights. Reading your breaking analysis always kicks off my prep for show. And it, it's always great to see, but predictions come true. So thank you for being my co-host bet. All right. For Dave Valante Enz as Carla, I'm Lisa Martin. You've been watching The Cube, the leader in live, emerging and enterprise tech coverage. Thanks for watching.

>> Presenter: theCUBE presents UiPath FORWARD5 brought to you by UiPath. >> Back to theCUBE's coverage of UiPath FORWARD5, 2022. This is theCUBE's 4th UiPath FORWARD. They're mining automation gold here at the conference and in the customer base and we're creating Cube Gold, Dave Vellante and Dave Nicholson. Cheryln Chin is here. She's the vice president of Global Alliances at UIPATH. Sameer Bohra, who's the director of Information Technology at Deloitte. Good to see you guys. >> Great. >> Thank you. >> Now normally we would be talking about, how Deloitte's out, doing its thing with its customers, but this is actually a case study on Deloitte's use of automation and UiPath, so that's cool. You not only partner with the GSIs you actually sell to them as well. Okay. What's that all about? What's your relationship like? Why don't you start there? >> Absolutely. So we're thrilled to be here. Thanks for having us. And really appreciate Sameer being here with us. Deloitte was an early adopter of UiPath not just as a partner, driving innovations and investing in getting skilled and building the capability. They were the first to become the US and certified partner network investing in thousands and thousands of skilling up their consultants and resources to help us address our customer needs together. But it's not just about being a great partner it's being a customer with what they've done and built their own business around UiPath and the automations. We've got an amazing story to tell you about today that we'd love to share. >> All right, Sameer, let's hear it. What's the story? What was the catalyst to bring in automation, UiPath? Where are you applying it? Where'd you start? >> Fantastic, well first of all, thanks for having me here. >> You're welcome. >> I'll start this journey with the predictions that we were making at some point. So, Deloitte, as a company, we are in the business of predicting the technology trends. We have been tracking automation as a trend for quite some time, and we have been following how this industries going to come along. And we then started placing our bets not just on the technology, but on the vendor as well in this case. Right around 2017, 18 is when we started kind of implementing automation with UiPath for our internal purposes. And as it happens, different constituents in our member firms started doing it at the same time without kind of consulting with each other. But the surprising thing is that we all ended up with the same results. We all ended up with UiPath. We all ended up using the same technology set and it was good that we all made the same choice because we would then all get along with it together. So we started our journey kind of disintegrated in a way and then we came along quickly all together. We then have COEs in each of our member firms, or at least the big member firms. And around January last year is when we signed an enterprise license agreement with UiPath that really brought some of our mature COEs together. And now we are kind of utilizing the product quite well. We are exploring the benefits of that ELA brings to us. So that has been our journey so far. Just in terms of some numbers, we are more than 400 millionaires saved for our member firm. We have hundreds of processes that we have automated. I'm kind of losing count of that already. And we have a good 70, 80 member team members across our three mature COEs that are constantly automating day in and day out. So there's a lot in terms of the history and there's a lot that we are looking forward to. >> Can you paint a picture of sort of where you're applying these automations in your business and maybe double click on that a little bit? >> Absolutely. So when we started our journey, there were some candidates right off the bat there were some of our enabling areas where we were looking at for instance, finance our talent which we also called as HR. Those were some of our preliminary areas that we started doing automations for. But another surprising thing is that our first automation use cases were actually contingent solutions that we built to help some of the other big deployments that were happening in the firm. And in absence of any good solution, we said, "Let's bring in RP and let's bridge the gap." And that basically opened the door for us to use automation at a bigger scale. So it's enabling area, talent, finance, business operations. Those are the prominent areas, marketing, chief culture, those are the areas that we are applying it. And then our services on the other hand are using automation as well because we need our services people to be armed with the valuable time to be able to invest on our clients rather than, being stuck in repetitive mundane tasks. So we are pretty much applying it all over the board now. >> So as director of IT at Deloitte, I'm curious about how this process works for you. You've heard the term drinking one's own champagne. >> Yeah. >> When you are looking... >> 'or jog fooding, but okay. >> I was trying to be polite, right? One throat to choke one bat to pat, back to pat. Are you immediately and at all times under a microscope when you're deploying something internally because someone else in Deloitte is thinking, "Okay, let's see how this works for us. Because if it works well, if we gain expertise, we can turn this into a line of business to help our clients." Is that something that starts day one? Or do people come to you six months into a project and say, "Hey, I hear you have something going on. That's cool." What's that look like? >> Very interesting question. The way I would like to describe it is we have a symbiotic relationship between our internal COE and our client facing teams that are out in the market selling automation along with UiPath. And the way that symbiotic relationship work for us is when we are doing anything interesting in terms of an automation use case, and we have many that I can talk about, we do have this constant connect with our client facing folks where we tell them about the use case. We tell them about the problem that we are solving and the way in which we are solving that problem. And in many cases, it generates interest. And then we get into conversations where we see, okay is it an asset that we can build out of it? Or is it simply a client use case that we could burn and implement and apply somewhere? So that's one side of the symbolic relationship. The other side is what our client service folks are seeing in the market. So when they see it, they come to us and they tell us, "Look, we see such and such client doing this and we did it for them. We should think about doing this in Deloitte and for ourselves." And then we say, "Fantastic, let's do it." So it's both ways. >> Dave: Both ways. And the fact that it is both ways. There is not that sense of pressure or you know that I'm under a microscope. It's all one big family. >> How do you measure success? >> It's a pretty interesting question again, success is subjective, right? When it comes to automation the typical metrics that people use to define and describe success is how many hours you have saved or how many hours, at least the way we use it how many hours you have reinvested, right? So we started with that as our measure and for some time that was really our measure of success. But lately we are seeing a change in that we are now shifting more over to other matrix like cost avoidance. So for instance, your firm is growing at a certain pace. Do all your enabling areas need to grow at that pace? Maybe not. Maybe we can avoid that cost and maybe we bring in more automation to support that. So cost avoidance is kind of emerging as a bigger matrix for us now, especially given that all low hanging automation fruits have been plucked. That's a big one we are looking at. I think the other matrix which is a bit difficult to measure directly is the employee satisfaction. There's somewhere I read that if you want happy clients you need to have happy employees first, right? And one way of making your employees happy is to give them the task that they really value that they really like to do. Now, again, being a professional services firm are ours are people's, our is our currency, right? So we want to give them as much of their valuable time back so they can invest it in their client facing activities as opposed to, you know doing mundane and ones. So those are some of the matrix and measures we are looking at. >> So I'd like to dig into that a little bit. If I could Sameer. So, aren't hours saved sort of related to cost avoidance? Is that an input to the cost avoidance calculation, if you will? >> So yeah, so yes and no. And the reason I say that is because yes, if you do the math, yes, it makes sense, >> 'not that it's direct. I understand it's not a direct relationship but it's somewhere related. Is it not? >> It is related in the sense that our saved is an immediate measure of automation, right? So if me as a practitioner, if I can hand over a task to the bar, which can take off five hours out of my week, that's an hour saved right away. But cost avoidance is more like, "Hey, I have these 10 engagements that are coming up. Do I need to amp up to meet boost end engagement or I simply amp up my automation, right?" So that's more around the cost avoidance piece. >> Okay. So there's an algorithm there. >> Yeah. >> Which makes sense. Do you find, so in other words, when you save hours at some point it's going to translate it to headcount avoidance. Okay, are you finding that when you run a project if you can automate that project, that the proportion of savings is greater on that automation of the project than it is for those sort of hours saved? I'm just sort of curious as to what the balance looks like. Is it like overwhelmingly speeding up the project? Is the real benefit there? I'm just kind of curious. >> There's absolutely a benefit there. With automation, you can obviously speed up your projects, you can do more with the staff and the team that you have. So that's definitely something that helps us a lot both internally and I believe on the client facing side as well. >> Okay. And just put my CFO hat on. Let's, so are those internal resources or are there sort of out of pocket expenses? In other words, it's the hard dollars that I don't spend or is it resources that I can deploy on another project or both? Or both. >> For the most part it's the resources right? >> So it's okay. >> Yeah, it's the resources that you can now have them do more value work with more clients as opposed to have them do many task at one place. >> Okay, I'm going to just keep going. So that's a productivity measure in my mind anyway, so I just like to keep peeling the onion on the metrics. So I would at some point, so the two things the cost avoidance and the employee satisfaction I would ultimately as the CFO want to see that show up in terms of productivity increases and decreases in turnover. And you probably don't have enough experience yet to measure that. But ultimately, isn't that where you want to go? >> I think that's essentially where it's going and I think that's the way it'll probably go for pretty much everyone who is in this journey of automation at your CFO will eventually want to look at, okay what after this investment, where is it leading us? So that's definitely the direction we are also heading. >> Yeah and so productivity revenue per employee, is that a good starting point? Maybe you get more sophisticated than that, but... >> Yeah, that's probably a good starting point. >> UiPath revenue employees about 250,000, which is pretty average for software companies. Now, maybe it's because they're investing more, but at some point I'd like to see that tick to 350,000 anyway. >> Yeah. >> I Digress. >> And we are on that journey where we are essentially looking to arm everyone with a bot right? There's a philosophy and UiPath around a bot for everyone. We are pretty close to getting to that stage where everybody should be able to leverage the technology. We shouldn't be limited to a certain business unit or certain pockets within a business unit. >> I want a bot. I do, I want a bot, I'm getting a bot. >> I wish I have a bot. >> I would, yeah, I want to a bot and I want to give that bot a very clever name. That's like you're thinking of naming bots. So are your activities evaluated in completely independently as sort of your own P and L or do you get credit for some of that symbiotic relationship that's developed? Because I can imagine a situation where you deploy something intelligent automation and you get a yield that translates into a practice for your firm that brings in a bunch of revenue with a bunch of satisfied customers. Do you get credit for that? Or is it like, no, no, no, no. I wouldn't >> I would love to get credit for that. But again, it's all in the family. It's all one big family. At this time we are simply focused on bringing the right use cases forward for our client facing folks and the other way around. So we haven't got into that stage as left. >> But you need to deliver standalone value. You're evaluated that way. >> And this COE. That's what we are evaluated upon. The matrix that I talked about earlier around cost avoidance, number of our saved employee satisfaction. Those are some of area that we are being rated upon. And that's across all our COEs. >> Oh, surely congratulations on landing Deloitte as a customer and of course a partner. And I'm sure there's big things in the future. We'll give you the last word, bring it home. >> You know, the takeaway here is we are leveraging partners like this who are going way beyond just automating processes for the sake of process and our save the using this to build their business make their consultants more productive and really driving profitability for the business. So really the automation flywheel going beyond that's really trying to fuel digital transformation by taking this, they make it go faster, more profitable, more agile, and they become an amazing customer and an amazing good market partner. >> Yeah, you guys take this pretty seriously behind us there's this, I don't know what you call it but this clouds floating above it. If you walk through there, there's some really inspiring commentary. And so I encourage you to do that if you're here at the show. All right, thanks guys, appreciate it. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> You're welcome. All keep it right there Dave Vellante and Dave Nicholson will be back at FORWARD5 UiPath customer event from Las Vegas. We're live right back. (soft music)

>>The Cube presents UI Path Forward five, brought to you by UI Path. >>Hi everybody. Welcome to Las Vegas. We're here in the Venetian, formerly the Sans Convention Center covering UI Path Forward five. This is the fourth time the Cube has covered forward, not counting the years during Covid, but UiPath was one of the first companies last year to bring back physical events. We did it at the Bellagio last year, Lisa Martin and myself. Today, my co-host is David Nicholson, coming off of last week's awesome CrowdStrike show back here in Vegas. David talking about UI path. UI path is a company that had a very strange path, as I wrote one time to IPO this company that was founded in 2005 and was basically a development shop. And then they realized they got lightning in a bottle with this RPA thing. Yeah. And Daniel Deez, the founder of the company, just really drove it hard and they really didn't do any big kind of VC raise for several years. >>And then all of a sudden, boom, the rocket ship took off, kind of really got out over their skis a little bit, but then got to IPO and, and has had a very successful sort of penetration into the market. The IPO obviously has not gone as well. We can talk about that, but, but they've hit a billion dollars in arr. There aren't a lot of companies that, you know, have hit a billion dollars in ARR that quickly. These guys had massive valuations that were cut back, obviously with the, with the downturn, but also some execution misuses. But the one thing about UiPath, Dave, is they've been very successful at penetrating customers. And that's the thing you always get at forward customer stories. And the other thing I'll, I'll, I'll add is that it started out with the narrative was, oh, automation software, robots, they're gonna take away jobs. The opposite has happened, the zero unemployment. Now basically we're heading into a recession, we're actually probably in a recession. And so how do you combat a recession? You put automation to work and gain if, if, if, if inflation is five to 7% and you can get 20% from automation. Well, it's a good roi. But you sat in the keynotes, it was really your first exposure to the company. What were your thoughts? >>Yeah, I think the whole subject is interesting. I think if you've been involved in tech for a while, the first thing you think of is, well, hold on a second. Isn't this just high tech scripting? Aren't you essentially just automating stuff? How, how cool can that possibly be? >>Well, it kinda was in the >>Beginning. Yeah, yeah. But, but, but when you dig into it, to your, to your point about the concern about displacing human beings, the first things that can automate it are the mundane and the repetitive tasks, which then frees individuals up frontline individuals who are doing those tasks to do more strategic things for the business. So when you, when we, you know, one of the things that was talked about in the keynote was this idea of an army of citizen developers within an organization. Not, you know, not just folks who are innovating and automating at the core of enterprise applications, but also folks out on the front line automating the tasks that are interfering with their productivity. So it seems like it's a win-win for, for everybody throughout the enterprise. >>Yeah. So let's take a, let's take folks through the, the keynote to, basically we learned there are 3,500 people here, roughly, you know, we're in the Venetian and we do a lot of shows at, at the Venetian, formerly the San Convention Center. The one thing about UiPath, they, they are a cool company. Yeah, they are orange colors, kinda like pure storage, but they got the robots moving around. The setup is very nice, it's very welcoming and very cool, but 300 3500 attendees, including partners and UiPath employees, 250 sessions. They've got a CIO, automation council and a pickleball court inside this hall, which pickleball is, you know, all the rage. So Bobby, Patrick and Mary Telo kicked it off. Bobby's the cmo, Mary's the head of branding, and Bobby raised four themes. It it, this is a tool that it's, this is RPA is going from a tool to a way of operating and innovating. >>The second thing is, the big news here is the UI path business platform, something like that. They're calling, but they're talking about about platform and they're really super gluing that to digital transformation. The third is really outcomes shifting from tactical. I have a robot, a software robot on my desk doing, you know, mimicking what I do with the script to something that's transformative. We're seeing this operationalized very deeply. We'll go into some examples. And then the fourth theme is automation is being featured as a strategic line item in annual reports. Bobby Patrick, as he left the stage, I think he was commenting on my piece where I said that RPA automation is more discretionary than some other things. He said, this is not discretionary, it's strategic. You know, unfortunately when you're heading into a recession, you can, you can put off some of the more strategic items. However, the flip side of that, Dave, is as they were saying before, if you're gonna, if if you're, if you're looking at five to 7% inflation may be a way to attack that is with automation. Yeah. >>There's no question, there's no question that automation is a way to attack that. There's no question that automation is critical moving forward. There's no question that we have moved. We're in the, you know, we're, we're still in the age of cloud, but automation is gonna be absolutely critical. The question is, what will UI path's role be in that market? And, and, and when you hear, when you hear UI path talk about platform versus tool sets and things like that, that's a critical differentiator because if they are just a tool, then why wouldn't someone exploit a tool that is within an application environment instead of exploiting a platform? So what I'm gonna be looking for in terms of the, the folks we talked to over the next few days is this question of, you know, make the case that this is actually a platform that extends across all kinds of application environments. If they can't seize that high ground moving forward, it's it's gonna be, it's gonna be tough for them. >>Well, they're betting the company on >>That, that's Rob Ensslin coming in. That's why he's part of the, the equation. But >>That platform play is they are betting the company. And, and the reason is, so the, the, the history here is in the early days of this sort of RPA craze, Automation Anywhere and UI path went out, they both raised a ton of money. UI Path rocketed out to the lead. They had a much e easier to install, you know, Automation Anywhere, Blue Prism, some of the other legacy business process folks, you know, kind of had on-prem, Big Stacks, UiPath came in a really simple self-serve platform and took off and really got a foothold in the market. And then started building or or making some of these acquisitions like Process Gold, like cloud elements, which is API automation. More recently Reiner, We, which is natural language processing. We heard them up on the stage today and they've been putting that together to do not just rpa but process mining, task mining, you know, document automation, et cetera. >>And so Rob Ins insulin was brought in from Google, formerly Google and SAP, to really provide that sort of financial and go to market expertise as well as Shim Gupta who's, who's the cfo. So they, they, and they were kinda late with that. They sort of did all this post ipo. I wish they had done it, you know, somewhat beforehand, but they're sort of bringing in that adult supervision supervision that's necessary. Rob Sland, I thought was very cogent. He was assertive on stage, he was really clear, he was energetic. He talked about the phases, e r p, Internet cloud and the now automation is a new S-curve. He quoted a Forester analyst talking about that. He also had a great quote. He said, you know, the old adage better, faster, cheaper, pick two. He said, You don't have to do that anymore with automation. He cited reports from analysts, 50% efficiency improvement, 40% productivity improvement, 40% improvement in customer satisfaction. >>And then what I always, again, love about UiPath is they're no shortage of customers. They do as good a job as anybody, and I think I would say the best of, of, of getting customers to talk about their experiences. You'll see that on the cube all this week, talked about Changi airport from Singapore. They're adding 50 able to service 50 million new customers, new travelers with no new headcount company called Vital or retail. And how you say that a hundred thousand employees having access to it. Uber, 150% ROI in one year. New York state getting 1.2 million relief checks out in two weeks and identifying potentially 12 billion in fraud. They also talk about 25% of the, of the UI path finance team is digital. And they've, they've only incremented headcount, you know, very slightly one and a half times their revenue's grown. What a 10 x? And really he talked about how to, for how to turn automation into a force multiplier for growth. And to your point, I think that's their challenge. What were your thoughts on Rob ens insulin's keynote? >>First of all, in addition to his background, Rob brings a brand with him. Rob Ensslin is a brand, and that brand is enterprise overarching platform. Someone you go to for that platform play, not for a tool set. And again, I'll, I'll say it again. It's critically important that they, that they demonstrate this to the marketplace, that they are a platform worth embracing as opposed to simply a tool set. Because the large enterprise software providers are going to provide their own tool sets within their platforms. And if you can't convince someone that it's worth doing two things instead of one thing, you're, you're, you're never gonna make it. So I've had experiences with Rob when he was at Google. He's, he's, he's the right person for the job and I, and I I I buy into his strategy and narrative about where we are and the critical nature of automation question remains, will you I path to be able to benefit from that trend. >>So a couple things on that. So your point about sap, you know, is right on EY was up on stage. They, EY is a huge SAP customer and they chose UI path to automate their SAP installation, right? And they're going all in with UI path as a partner. Of course. I I often like to say that the global system integrators, they like to eat at the trough, right? When you see GSIs like EY and others coming into the ecosystem, that means there's business being done. We saw Orange up on stage, which was really interesting. >>Javier from Spain. Yeah. Yep. >>Talking about he had this really cool dashboard and then Ted Coomer was talking about the business automation platform and all the different chapters and the evolution. They've gotta get to a platform play because the thing I failed to mention is Microsoft a couple years ago made a tuck in acquisition and got it to this market really providing individual automations and making it, you know, it's Microsoft, they're gonna make it really easy to add it really >>Cheaply. SAP would tell you that they have the same thing and, >>And then, and then just grow from that. So UiPath has to pivot to a platform play. They started this back in 2019, but as you know, it takes a long time to integrate stuff. Okay. So they're, they're, they're working through that. But this is, you know, Rob ends and put up on the, the slide go big, I, I tweeted, took a page outta Michael Dell. Go big or go home. Final thoughts before we break? >>I think go big or go home is pretty much sums it up. I mean this is, this is an existential mission that UiPath is on right now, starting to stay forward. They need to seize that high ground of platform versus tool set. Otherwise they will never get beyond where they are now. I I I, I do wanna mention too, to folks in the audience, there's a huge difference between a billion dollar valuation and a billion dollars in revenue every year. So, so, you know, these, these guys have reached a milestone, there's no question about that. But to get to that next level platform, platform, platform, and I know we'll be, we'll be probing our guests on that question over the next couple years. >>Yeah. And the key is obviously gonna be keep servicing the customers, you know, all the financial machinations and you know, they reduced yesterday their guidance from the high end being 25% ARR growth down to roughly 20% when you, when you factor out currency conversions. UiPath has a lot of business overseas. They're taking that overseas revenue and converting it back to dollars though dollars are appreciated. So they're less of them. I know this is kind of the inside baseball, but, but we're gonna get into that over the next two days. Dave Ante and Dave, you're watching the Cubes coverage of UI path forward, five from Las Vegas. We'll be right back, right after this short break.

>>When AWS introduced the modern cloud in 2006, many people didn't realize the impact that it would have on the industry, but some did see the future of an as a service economy coming. I mean, SAS offerings came out several years before. And the idea of applying some of these concepts to infrastructure and simplifying deployment and management, you know, kinda looked enticing to a lot of customers and a subscription model, or, but yet a consumption model was seen as a valuable proposition by many customers. Why not apply it to infrastructure? And why should the hyperscalers have all the fun welcome to at your storage service? My name is Dave ante. And as an analyst at the time, I was excited about the, as a service trend early on. And one of the companies that caught my attention back in the beginning of last decade was pure storage. >>Pure not only was delivering cloud- simplicity, but it's no forklift approach to infrastructure was ahead of its time. And that's why we're here today to dig into what's happening with the, as a service trends that we see popping up all over the world today, we're gonna dig into three sessions with noted experts in the field. First pre Darie is the general manager of the digital experience business unit at pure storage. He's gonna join us. And then we bring in Steve McDowell, Steve's a senior analyst for data and storage at more insights and strategy, a well known consultancy and analyst firm. And finally, we close with Amil sta Emil is the chief commercial officer and chief marketing officer at open line, open lines, a managed service provider. They serve the mid-market and Emil's got a very wide observation space. He's gonna share what he's seeing with customers. So sit back and enjoy the show. >>The cloud has popularized many useful concepts in the past decade, working backwards from the customer two pizza teams, a DevOps mindset, the shared responsibility model in security. And of course the shift from CapEx to OPEX and as a service consumption models. The last item is what we're here to talk about today. Pay for consumption is attractive because you're not over provisioning. At least not the way you used to you'd have to buy for peak capacity events, but there are always two sides to every story and well pay for use more closely ties. It consumption to business value procurement teams. Don't always love the uncertainty of the cloud bill each month, but consumption pricing. And as a service models are here to stay in software and hardware. Hello, I'm Dave ante and welcome to at your storage service made possible by pure storage. And with me is Pash DJI. Who's the general manager of the digital experience business unit at pure Pash. Welcome to the program. >>Thanks Dave. Thanks for having me. >>You bet. Okay. We've seen this shift to, as a service, the, as a service economy, subscription models, and this as a service movement have gained real momentum. It's it's clear over the past several years, what's driving this shift. Is it pressure from investors and technology companies that are chasing the all important ARR, their annual recurring revenue stream? Is it customer driven? Give us your insights. >>Well, look, um, I think we'll do some definitional stuff first. I think we often mix the definition of a subscription and a service, but, you know, subscription is, Hey, I can go for pay up front or pay as I go. Service is more about how do I not buy something just by the outcome. So, you know, the concept of delivering storage as a service means, what do you want in storage performance, capacity availability? Like that's what you want. Well, how do you get that without having to worry about the labor of planning capacity management, those labor elements are what's driving it. So I think in the world where you have to do more with less and in a world where security becomes increasingly important, where standardization will allow you to secure your landscape against ransomware and those types of things, those trends are driving the ation of storage and the only way to deliver that is storage as a service. >>So that's, that's good. You maybe thinking about it differently than some of the other companies that I talked to, but so you, you, you've made inroads here pretty big inroads actually, and changed the thinking in enterprise data storage with a huge emphasis on simplicity. That's really pures rayon Detra. How does storage as a service fit into your innovation agenda overall? >>Well, our innovation agenda started, as you mentioned with the simplicity, you know, a decade ago with the evergreen architecture, that architecture was beyond the box. How do you go ahead and say, I can improve performance or capacity as I need it? Well, that's a foundational element to deliver a service because once you have that technology, you can say, oh, you know what? You've subscribed to this performance level. You want to raise your performance level and yes, that'll be a higher dollar per gig or dollar per terabyte. But how do you do that without a data migration? How do you do that with a non disruptive service change? How do you do that with a delivery via a software update, those elements of non disruptive updates. When you think SAS, Salesforce, you don't know when Salesforce doesn't update, you don't know when they're increasing something, adding a new capability just shows up. It's not a disruptive event. So to drive that standardization and sation and service delivery, you need to keep that simplicity of delivery first and foremost, and you can't allow, like, if the goal was, I want to change from this service tier to that service tier and a person needed to show up and do a day data migration, that's kind of useless. You've broken the experience of flexibility for a customer. >>Okay. So I like the Salesforce analogy, but I wanna jump out, do a little side for a second. So I I've gotta, I've gotta make some commitment to pure, right. Some baseline commitment. And if I do, then I can dial up and pay for what I use and I can dial it down. Correct? Correct. Okay. I can't do that with Salesforce. <laugh> right. I could dial up, but then I'm stuck with those licenses. So you have a better model in Salesforce. I would argue. Okay. Yeah, >>I would, I would agree with that. >>Okay. So, and I gotta pay for everything up front anyway. Um, let's go back. I was kind of pushing at you a little bit at my upfront, you know, about, you know, the ARR model, the, the all important, you know, financial metric, but let's talk from the customers standpoint. What are the benefits of consuming storage as a service from your customer's perspective? >>Well, one is when you start your storage journey, do you really know what you need? And I would argue most of the time people are guessing, right? It's like, well, I think I need this. This is the performance I think I need. Or this is the capacity I think I need. And, you know, with the scientific method, you actually deploy something and you're like, do I need more? Do I need less? You find out as you're deploying. So in a storage as a service world, when you have the ability to move up performance levels or move out capacity levels, and you have that flexibility, then you have the ability to just to meet demand as you deploy. And that's the most important element of meeting business needs today. The applications you deploy are not in your control when you're providing storage to your end consumers. >>Yeah. They're gonna want different levels of storage. They're gonna want different performance thresholds. That's kind of a pay, you know, pay for performance type culture, right? You can use HR analogies for it. You pay for performance. You want top talent, you pay for it. You want top storage performance, you pay for it. Um, you don't, you can pay less and you can actually get lower performance, tiers, not everything is a tier one application. And you need the ability to deploy it. But when you start, how do you know the way your end customers are gonna be consuming? Or do you need a dictated upfront? Cause that's infrastructure dictating business inflexibility, and you never want to be in that position. >>I, I got another analogy for you. It's like, you know, we do a lot of hosting at our home and you know, like Thanksgiving, right? And you go to the liquor store and say, okay, what should I get? Should we get red wine? We gotta go white wine. We gotta get some beer. Should I get bubbles? Yeah, I get some bubbles. Cause you don't know what people are gonna have. And so you over provision everything <laugh> and then there's a run on bubbles and you're like, ah, we run outta bubbles. So you just over buy, but there's a liquor store that actually will take it back. So I gotta do business with those guys every time. Cuz it's way more flexible. I can dial up capacity or can dial up performance and dial it back down if I don't use it >>Or you or you're gonna be drinking a lot more the next few weeks. >>Yeah, exactly. Which is the last thing you want. Okay. So let's talk about how pure kind of meets this as a service demand. You've touched upon your, your differentiators from others in the market. Um, you know, love to hear about the momentum. What, what are you seeing out there? >>Yeah. Look, our business is growing well, largely built on, you know, what customers need. Um, specifically where the market is at today is there's a set of folks that are interested in the financial transformation of CapEx to OPEX, where like that definitely exists in the industry around how do I get a pay use model? The next kind of more advanced customer is interested in how do I go ahead and remove labor to deliver storage? And a service gets you there on top of a subscription. The most sophisticated customer says, how do I separate storage production with consumption and production of storage. Being a storage producer should be about standardization. So I could do policy based management. Why is that important? You know, coming back to some of the things I said earlier in the world where ransomware attacks are common, you need the standardized security policies. >>Linux has new vulnerabilities every, every other day, like find 2, 2, 3 critical vulnerabilities a week. How do you stay on top of it? The complexity of staying on top of it should be, look, let's standardize and make it a vendor problem. And assume the vendor's gonna deliver this to me. So that standardization allows you to have business policies that allow you to stay current and modern. I would argue in, you know, the traditional storage and appliance world, you buy something and the day a, the day after you buy it, it's worthless. It's like driving a car off a lot, right? The very next day, the car's not worth what it was when you bought it. Storage is the same way. So how do you ensure that your storage stays current? How do you ensure that it gets like a fine line that gets better, better with age? Well, if you're not buying storage and you're buying a performance SLA, it's up to the vendor to meet that SLA. So it actually never gets worse over time. This is the way you modernize technology and avoid technology debt as a customer. >>Yeah. I mean, just even though words you're using in the way you're thinking about this precaution, I think are, are, are different. Uh, and I love the concept of essentially taking my labor cost and transferring them to pures R and D I mean, that's essentially what you're talking about here. Um, so let's, let's, let's stick with the, the, the tech for a minute. What do you see as new or emerging technologies that are helping accelerate this shift toward the, as a service economy? >>Well, the first thing is I always tell people, you can't deliver a service without monitoring, because if you can't monitor something, how you're gonna know what your, whether you're meeting your service level obligation, right? So everything starts with data monitoring. The next step layering on the technology. Differentiation is if you need to deliver a service level, OB obligation on top of that data monitoring, you need the ability to flexibly, meet whatever performance obligations you have in a tight time window. So supply chain and being able to deliver anywhere becomes important. So if you use the analogy today of how Tesla works or a IOT system works, you have a SaaS management that actually provides instructions that push pushes those instructions and policies to the edge. In Tesla's case, that happens to be the car it'll push software updates to the car. It'll push new map updates to the car, but the car is running independently. >>It's not like if the car becomes disconnected from the internet, it's gonna crash and drive you off the road in the same way. What if you think about storage as something that needs to be wherever your application is? So people think about cloud as a destination. I think that's a fallacy. You have to think about the world in the world in the view of an application, an application needs data, and that data needs to sit in storage wherever that application sits. So for us, the storage system is just an edge device. It can be sitting in your data center, it can be sitting in a Equinix. It can be sitting in hosted, an MSP can run. It can, can even be sitting in the public cloud, but how do you have central monitoring and central management where you can push policies to update all those devices? >>Very similar to an I IOT system. So the technology advantage of doing that means that you can operate anywhere and ensure you have a consistent set of policies, a consistent set of protection, a consistent set of, you know, prevention against ransomware attack, regardless of your application, regardless of, uh, you know, where it sits, regardless of what content in you're on that approach is very similar to the way the T industry has been updating and monitoring edge devices, nest, thermostats, you know, Tesla cars, those types of things. That's the thinking that needs to come to. And that's the foundation on which we built PI as a service. >>So that implies, or at least I infer that you've obviously got control of the experience on Preem, but you're extending that, uh, into AWS, Google Azure, which suggests to me that you have to hide the underlying complexity of the primitives and APIs in that world. And then eventually, actually today, cuz you're treating everything like the edge out to the edge, you know, maybe, maybe mini pure at some point in time. But so I call that super cloud that abstraction layer that floats above all the clouds on-prem and adds that layer of value. And is this singular experience? What you're talking about pushing, you know, policy throughout, is that the right way to think about it and how does this impact the ability to deliver true storage as a service? >>Oh, uh, that's absolutely the right way of thinking about it. The things that you think about from a, an abstraction kind of fall in three buckets, first, you need management. So how do you ensure a consistent management experience creating volumes, deleting volumes, creating buckets, creating files, creating directories, like management of objects and create a consistent API across the entire landscape. The second one is monitoring, how do you measure utilization and performance obligations or capacity obligations or uh, you know, policy violations, wherever you're at. And then the third one is more of a business one, which is procurement because you can't do it independent of procurement. Meaning what happens when you run out, you need to increase your reserve commits. Do you want to go on demand? How do you integrate it into company's procurement models, such that you can say, I can use what I need and any, it's not like every change order is a request of procurement. That's gonna break an as a service delivery model. So to get embedded in a customer's landscape where they don't have to worry about storage, you have to provide that consistency on management, monitoring and procurement across the tech. And yes, this is deep technology problems, whether it's running our storage on AWS or Azure or running it on prem or, you know, at some point in the future, maybe even, um, you know, pure mini at the edge. Right. <laugh> so, you know, tho all of those things are tied to our pure, a service delivery. >>Yeah, technically non-trivial but uh, Hey, you guys are on it. Well, we gotta leave it there. Pash. Thank you. Great stuff. Really appreciate your time. >>All right. Thanks for having me, man. >>You're very welcome. Okay. In a moment, Steve McDowell from more insights and strategies, it's gonna give us the analyst perspective on, as a service, you're watching the cube, the leader in high tech enterprise coverage. >>Why are customers making the change to pure as a service >>Other vendors, offering flexible consumption models will promise you the world on the surface. It's just what you need. But then you notice the asterisk that dreaded fine print. That turns just what you need into long-term commitments, disruptive upgrades and unpredictable costs, pure storage, launched pure as a service to provide the flexibility to respond to your ever changing needs. With clear per unit costs, no large upfront purchases and no asterisks. A usage based model should be simple, innovative, and adapt with the changing market. Unlike other vendors, pure is offering exactly that with options, for service tiers and short term contracts in a single unified subscription that allows you to improve your discounts over time. Pure makes sure you can grow and upgrade without ever taking your environment offline and without the constant worry of hidden costs with complete billing, transparency, unlike any other, you only pay for what you use and pure one helps track and predict demand from day to day, making sure you never outgrow your storage. So why are customers making the change to pure as a service convenient solutions with unlimited potential without the dreaded fine print? It's as simple as that, >>We're back with Steve McDowell, the principal analyst for data and storage at more insights and strategy. Hey Steve, great to have you on, tell us a little bit about yourself. You got a really interesting background and kind of a blend of engineering and strategy and what's your research focus? >>Yeah, so my research, my focus area is data and storage and all the things around that, right? Whether it's OnPrim or cloud or, or, or, you know, software as a service. Uh, my background, as you said, is a blend, right? I grew up as an engineer. I started off as an OS developer at IBM. Uh, came up through the ranks and, and shifted over into corporate strategy and product marketing and product management. Uh, and I've been doing, uh, working as an industry analyst now for about five years, more insights and strategy. >>Steve, how do you see this playing out in the next three to five years? I mean, cloud got it all started. It's gonna snowballing, you know, however you look at it, percent of spending on storage that you think is gonna land in as a service. How, how do you see the evolution here? >>I think it buyers are looking at as a service, a consumption based is, is, uh, uh, you know, a natural model. It extends the data center, brings all of the flexibility, all of the goodness that I get from public cloud, but without all of the downside and uncertainty around cost and security and things like that, right. That also come with a public cloud and it's delivered by technology providers that I trust and that I know, and that I've worked with, you know, for, in some cases, decades. So I don't know that we have hard data on how much, uh, adoption there is of the model, but we do know that it's trending up, uh, you know, and every infrastructure provider at this point has some flavor of offering in the space. So it's, it's clearly popular with CIOs and, and it practitioners alike. >>So Steve organizations are at a they're different levels of maturity in their, their transformation journeys. And of course, as a result, they're gonna have different storage needs that are aligned with their bottom line business objectives. From an it buyer perspective, you may have data on this, even if it's anecdotal, where does storage as a service actually fit in and can it be a growth lever >>Can absolutely be, uh, a growth leader. Uh, it, it gives me the flexibility as, as an it architect to scale my business over time, without worrying about how much money I have to invest in, in storage hardware. Right? So I, I get kind of, again, that cloudlike flexibility in terms of procurement and deployment. Uh, but it gives me that control by oftentimes being on site within my permit. And I manage it like a storage array that I own. Uh, so you know, it, it's, it's beautiful for, for organizations that are scaling and, and it's equally nice for organizations that just wanna manage and control cost over time. Um, so it's, it's a model that makes a lot of sense and fits and, and certainly growing in adoption and popularity. >>How about from a technology vendor perspective you've worked for in the, in the tech industry mm-hmm <affirmative> for, for companies? What do you think is gonna define the winners and losers in this space? If you were running strategy for, uh, storage company, what would you say? >>I, I think the days of, of a storage administrator managing, you know, rate levels and recovering and things of that sort are over, right, what would, what these organizations like pure delivering, but they're offerings is, is simplicity. It's a push button approach to deploying storage to the applications and workloads that need it, right. It becomes storage as a utility. So it's not just the, you know, the consumption based economic model of, of, uh, as a service. Uh, it, it's also the manageability that comes with that, or the flexibility of management that comes with that. I can push a button, deploy bites to, to, uh, you know, a workload that needs it. Um, and it just becomes very simple, right. For the storage administrator in a way that, you know, kind of old school OnPrim storage can't really deliver. >>You know, I wanna, I wanna ask you, I mean, I've been thinking about this because again, a lot of companies are, are, you know, moving, hopping on the, as a service bandwagon, I feel like, okay, in and of itself, that's not where the innovation lives, the innovation is gonna come from making that singular experience from on-prem to the clouds across clouds, maybe eventually out to the edge. Um, do you, do you, where do you see the innovation in as a service? >>Well, there there's two levels of innovation, right? One, one is business model innovation, right? I, I now have an organizational flexibility to build the infrastructure, to support my digital transformation efforts. Um, but on the product side and the offering side, it really is, as you said, it's about the integration of experience. Every enterprise today touches a cloud in some way, shape or form, right. I have data spread, not just in my data center, but at the edge, uh, oftentimes in a public cloud, maybe a private cloud, I don't know where my data is and it really lands on the storage providers to help me manage that and deliver that, uh, uh, manageability experience, uh, to, to the it administrators. So when I look at innovation in this space, you know, it's not just a storage array and rack that I'm leasing, right? This is not another lease model. It's really fully integrated, you know, end to end management of my data and, and, you know, and all of the things around that. >>Yeah. So you, to your point about a lease model is if you're doing a lease, you know, yeah. You can shift CapEx to OPEX, but you're still committed to, to, you have to over provision, whereas here, and I wanted to ask you about that. It's, it's, it's, it's an interesting model, right? Cuz you gotta read the fine print. Of course the fine print says you gotta commit to some level typically. And then if, you know, if you go over you, you charge for what you use and you can scale that back down and that's, that's gotta be very attractive for folks. I, I wonder if you will ever see like true cloud-like consumption pricing, that is two edges to it. Right. You see consumption based pricing in some of the software models and you know yeah. People like it, the lines of business maybe cuz they pay in by the drink, but then procurement hates it cuz they don't have predictability. How do you see the pricing models? Do you see that maturing or do you think we're sort of locked in on, on where we're at? >>No, I, I do. I do see that maturing. Right? And, and when you work with a company like pure to understand their consumption based and as a service offerings, uh, it, it really is sitting down and understanding where your data needs are going to scale, right? You, you buy in at a certain level, uh, you have capacity planning. You can expand if you need to, you can shrink if you need to. So it really does put more control in the hands of the it buyer than uh, well certainly then traditional CapEx based on-prem but also more control than you would get, you know, working with an Amazon or an Azure. >>Okay. Thanks Steve. We'll leave it there for now. I'd love to have you back. Keep it right there at your storage service continues in a moment. >>Some things are meant to last your storage should be one of them say hello to the evergreen storage program, say goodbye to refreshes and rebates. Forget planned downtime, performance impact and data migrations. Forget forklift upgrades. Evergreen storage starts with your agile storage architecture and covers the entire life cycle of the array from first purchase to ongoing use. And whenever it's time to modernize and grow, your satisfaction is covered with an evergreen subscription. You can get a full refund within 30 days for any reason, >>Our right size guarantee lets you buy just the storage you need never too much. Never not enough. Your array software is all inclusive. Even future releases and features maintenance and support costs remain constant throughout the life of your array. Proactive expert support is a true white glove experience. Evergreen maintenance ensures availability of any replacement components. Meet the demands of your business and protect your investment. Evergreen gold includes controller upgrades every three years. And if something unplanned comes up, evergreen gold provides upgrade flex the leading anytime upgrade feature to upgrade controllers whenever you need it. As you expand evergreen gold provides credits to consolidate storage with denser more modern flash. Evergreen is your subscription to continuous innovation for storage that lasts 10 years or more. Some things are meant to last make your storage. One of them >>We're back at your storage service. Emil Stan is here. He's the chief commercial officer and chief marketing officer of open line. Thank you Emil for coming on the cube. Appreciate your time. >>Thank you, David. Nice. Uh, glad to be here. >>Yes. Yeah. So tell us about open line. You're a managed service provider. What's your focus? >>Yeah, we're actually a cloud managed service provider and I do put cloud in front of the managed services because it's not just only the spheres that we manage. We have to manage the clouds as well nowadays. And then unfortunately, everybody only thinks there's one cloud, but it's always multiple layers in the cloud. So we have a lot of work in integrating it. We're a cloud manages provider in the Netherlands, focusing on, uh, companies who have head office in the Netherlands, mainly in the, uh, healthcare local government, social housing logistics department. And then in the midst size companies between say 250 to 10,000 office employees. Uh, and that's what we do. We provide 'em with excellent cloud managed services, uh, as it should be >>Interesting, you know, a lot early on in the cloud days, highly regulated industries like healthcare government were somewhat afraid of the cloud. So I'm sure that's one of the ways in which you provide value to your customers is helping them become cloud proficient. Maybe you could talk a little bit more about the value prop to customers. Why do they do business with you? >>And I think, uh, there are a number of reasons why they do business with us or choose to choose for our manage services provider that first of course are looking for stability and continuity. Uh, and, and from a cost perspective, predict predictable costs. But nowadays you also have a shortage in personnel and knowledge. So, and it's not always very easy for them to access, uh, those skill sets because most it, people just want to have, uh, a great variety in work, what they are doing, uh, towards, towards the local government, uh, healthcare, social housing. They actually, uh, a sector that, uh, that are really in between embracing the public cloud, but also have a lot of legacy and, and bringing together best of all, worlds is what we do. So we also bring them comfort. We do understand what legacy, uh, needs from a manager's perspective. We also know how to leverage the benefits in the public cloud. Uh, and, uh, I'd say from a marketing perspective, actually we focus on using an ideal cloud, being a mix of traditional and future based cloud. >>Thank you. I, you know, I'd like to get your perspective on this idea of as a service and the, as a service economy that we often talk about on the cube. I mean, you work with a lot of different companies. We talked about some of the industries and, and increasingly it seems like organizations are focused more on outcomes, continuous value delivery via, you know, suites of services and, and they're leaning into platforms versus one off product offerings, you know, do you see that? How do you see your customers reacting to this as a service trend? >>Yeah. Uh, to be honest, sometimes it makes it more complex because services like, look at your Android or iPhone, you can buy apps, uh, and download apps the way you want to. So they have a lot of apps about how do you integrate it into one excellent workflow, something that works for you, David or works for me. Uh, so the difficulty, some sometimes lies in, uh, the easy accessibility that you have to those solutions, but nobody takes into account that they're all part of a chain, a workflow supply chain, uh, and, and, uh, they're being hyped as well. So what we also have a lot of time in, in, in, in managing our customers is that the tremendous feature push feature push that there is from technology providers, SaaS providers. Whereas if you provide 10 features, you only need one or two, uh, but the other eight are very distracting from your prime core business. Uh, so there's a natural way in that people are embracing, uh, SA solutions, embracing cloud solutions. Uh, but what's not taken into account as much is that we love to see it is the way that you integrate all those solutions toward something that's workable for the person that's actually using them. And it's seldomly that somebody is only using one solution. There's always a chain of solutions. Um, so yeah, there are a lot of opportunities, but also a lot of challenges for us, but also for our customers, >>You see that trend toward, as a service continuing, or do you actually see based on what you're just saying that pendulum, you know, swinging back and forth, somebody comes out with a new sort of feature product and that, you know, changes the dynamic or do you see as a service really having legs? >>Ah, I, I think that's very, very good question, David, because that's something that's keeping our busy all the time. We do see a trend in a service looking at, uh, talk about pure later on. We also use pure as a service more or less. Yeah. And that really helps us. Uh, but you see, uh, um, that sometimes people make a step too, too fast, too quick, not well thought of, and then you see what they call sort of cloud repatriation, tend that people go back to what they're doing and then they stop innovating or stop leveraging. The possibilities are actually there. Uh, so from our consultancy, our guidance and architecture point of view, we try to help them as much as possible to think in a SA thought, but just don't use the, cloud's just another data center. Uh, and so it's all about managing the maturity on our side, but on our customer side as well. >>So I'm interested in how your sort of your philosophy and, and as relates, I think in, in, in terms of how you work with pure, but how do you stay tightly in lockstep with your customers so that you don't over rotate so that you don't and send them to over rotate, but then you're not also, you don't wanna be too late to the game. How, how do you manage all that? >>Oh, there's, there's, there's a world of interactions between us and our customers. And so I think a well known, uh, uh, thing that people is customer intimacy. That's very important for us to get to know our customers and get to predict which way they're moving. But the, the thing that we add to it is also the ecosystem intimacy. So no, the application and services landscape, our customers know the primary providers and work with them, uh, to, to, to create something that, that really fits the customers. They just not looked at from our own silo where a cloud managed service provider that we actually work in the ecosystem with, with, with, with the primary providers. And we have, I think with the average customers, I think we have, uh, uh, in a month we have so much interactions on our operational level and technical levels, strategic level. >>We do bring together our customers also, and to jointly think about what we can do together, what we independently can never reach. Uh, but we also involve our customers in, uh, defining our own strategy. So we have something we call a customer involvement board. So we present a strategy and say, does it make sense? Eh, this is actually what you need also. So we take a lot of our efforts into our customers and we do also, uh, understand the significant moments of truth. We are now in this, in this broadcast, David there. So you can imagine that at this moment, not thinking go wrong. Yeah. If, if, if the internet stops that we have a problem. And now, so we, we actually know that this broadcast is going on for our customers and we manage that. It's always on, uh, uh, where in the other moments in the week, we might have a little less attention, but this moment we should be there. And these moments of truth that we really embrace, we got them well described. Everybody working out line knows what the moment of truth is for our customers. Uh, uh, so we have a big logistics provider. For instance, you does not have to ask us to, uh, have, uh, a higher availability on black Friday or cyber Monday. We know that's the most important part in the year for him or her. Does it answer your question, David? >>Yes. We know as well. You know, when these big, the big game moments you have to be on your top, uh, top of your game, uh, you know, the other thing Emil about this as a service approach that I really like is, is it's a lot of it is consumption based and the data doesn't lie, you can see adoption, you know, daily, weekly, monthly. And so I wonder how you're leveraging pure as a service specifically in what kind of patterns you're seeing in, in, in the adoption. >>Uh, yeah, pure as a service for our customers is mainly never visible. Uh, we provide storage services to provide storage solutions, storage over is part of a bigger thing of a server of application. Uh, so the real benefits, to be honest, of course, towards our customer, it's all flash, uh, uh, and they have the fastest, fastest storage is available. But for ourself, we, uh, we use less resources to manage our storage. We have far more that we have a near to maintenance free storage solution now because we have it as a service and we work closely together with pure. Uh, so, uh, actually the way we treat our customers is that way pure treats us as well. And that's why there's a used click. So the real benefits, uh, uh, how we leverage is it normally we had a bunch of guys managing our storage. Now we only have one and knowing that's a shortage of it, personnel, the other persons can well be, uh, involved in other parts of our services or in other parts of an innovation. So, uh, that's simply great. >>You know, um, my takeaway the meal is that you've made infrastructure, at least, least the storage infrastructure, invisible to your customers, which is the way it should be. You didn't have to worry about it. And you've, you've also attacked the, the labor problem. You're not, you know, provisioning lungs anymore, or, you know, tuning the storage, you know, with, with arms and legs. So that's huge. So that gets me into the next topic, which is business transformation. That, that means that I can now start to attack the operational model. So I've got a different it model. Now I'm not managing infrastructure same way. So I have to shift those resources. And I'm presuming that it's a bus now becomes a business transformation discussion. How are you seeing your customers shift those resources and focus more on their business as a result of this sort of as a service trend? >>I think I do not know if they, they transform their business. Thanks to us. I think that they can more leverage their own business. They have less problems, less maintenance, et cetera, cetera, but we also add new, uh, certainties to it, like, uh, uh, the, the latest service we we released was imutable storage being the first in the Netherlands offering this thanks to, uh, thanks to the pure technology, but for customers, it takes them to give them a good night rest because, you know, we have some, uh, geopolitical issues in the world. Uh, there's a lot of hacking. People have a lot of ransomware attacks and, and we just give them a good night rest. So from a business transformation, does it transform their business? I think that gives them a comfort in running your business, knowing that certain things are well arranged. You don't have to worry about that. We will do that. We'll take it out of your hands and you just go ahead and run your business. Um, so to me, it's not really a transformation is just using the right opportunities at the right moment. >>The imutable piece is interesting because, because, but speaking of as a service, you know, anybody can go on the dark web and buy ransomware as a service. I mean, as it's seeing the, as a service economy hit, hit everywhere, the good and the, and the not so good. Um, and so I presume that your customers are, are looking at, I imutability as another service capability of the service offering and really rethinking, maybe because of the recent, you know, ransomware attacks, rethinking how they, they approach, uh, business continuance, business resilience, disaster recovery. Do you see that? >>Yep, definitely. Definitely. I tell not all of them yet. Imutable storage. So it's like an insurance as well, which you have when you have imutable storage and you have been, you have a ransomware attack at least have you part of data, which never, if data is corrupted, you cannot restore it. If your hardware is broken, you can order new hardware. Every data is corrupted. You cannot order new data. Now we got that safe and well. And so we offer them the possibility to, to do the forensics and free up their, uh, the data without tremendous loss of time. Uh, but you also see that you raise the new, uh, how do you say, uh, the new baseline for other providers as well? Eh, so there's security of the corporate information security officer, the CIO, they're all very happy with that. And they, they, they raise the baseline for us as well. So they can look at other security topics and look from say, security operation center. Cuz now we can really focus on our prime business risks because from a technical perspective, we got it covered. How can we manage the business risk, uh, which is a combination of people, processes and technology. >>Right. Makes sense. Okay. I'll give you the last word. Uh, talk about your relationship with pure, where you wanna see that that going in the future. >>Uh, I hope we've be working together for a long time. Uh, I, I ex experienced them very involved. Uh, it's not, we have done the sell and now it's all up to you now. We were closely working together. I know if I talk to my prime architect, Marcel height is very happy and it looks a little more or less if we work with pure, like we're working with colleagues, not with a supplier and a customer, uh, and uh, the whole pure concept is fascinating. Uh, I, uh, I had the opportunity to visit San Francisco head office and they told me to fish in how they launched, uh, pure being, if you want to implement it, it had to be on one credit card. The, the, the menu had to be on one credit card. Just a simple thought of put that as your big area, audacious goal to make the simplest, uh, implementable storage available. But for us, uh, it gives me the expectation that there will be a lot of more surprises with pur in the near future. Uh, and for us as a provider, what we, uh, literally really look forward to is that, that for us, these new developments will not be new migrations. It will be a gradual growth of our services or storage services. Uh, so that's what I expect. And that was what I, and we look forward to. >>Yeah, that's great. Uh, thank you so much, Emil, for coming on the, the cube and, and sharing your thoughts and best of luck to you in the future. >>Thank you. You're welcome. Thanks for having me. >>You're very welcome. Okay. In a moment, I'll be back to give you some closing thoughts on at your storage service. You're watching the cube, the leader in high tech enterprise coverage. >>Welcome to evergreen, a place where organizations grow and thrive rooted in the modern data experience in evergreen people find a seamless, simple way to leverage data through market leading sustainable technology, financial flexibility, and effortless management, allowing everyone to innovate with data confidently. Welcome to pure storage. >>Now, if you're interested in hearing more about Pure's growing portfolio of technology and services and how they're transforming the enterprise data experience, be sure to register for pure accelerate tech Fest. 22 digital event is also taking place as an in-person event. On June 8th, you can register at pure storage.com/accelerate, pure storage.com/accelerate. You're watching the cue, the leader in enterprise and emerging tech coverage.

(upbeat music) >> Hello, and welcome to the special Cube conversation that we're launching in conjunction with Pure Accelerate. Prakash Darji is here, is the general manager of Digital Experience. They actually have a business unit dedicated to this at Pure Storage. Prakash, welcome back, good to see you. >> Yeah Dave, happy to be here. >> So a few weeks back, you and I were talking about the Shift 2 and as a service economy and which is a good lead up to Accelerate, held today, we're releasing this video in LA. This is the fifth in person Accelerate. It's got a new tagline techfest so you're making it fun, but still hanging out to the tech, which we love. So this morning you guys made some announcements expanding the portfolio. I'm really interested in your reaffirmed commitment to Evergreen. That's something that got this whole trend started in the introduction of Evergreen Flex. What is that all about? What's your vision for Evergreen Flex? >> Well, so look, this is one of the biggest moments that I think we have as a company now, because we introduced Evergreen and that was and probably still is one of the largest disruptions to happen to the industry in a decade. Now, Evergreen Flex takes the power of modernizing performance and capacity to storage beyond the box, full stop. So we first started on a project many years ago to say, okay, how can we bring that modernization concept to our entire portfolio? That means if someone's got 10 boxes, how do you modernize performance and capacity across 10 boxes or across maybe FlashBlade and FlashArray. So with Evergreen Flex, we first are starting to hyper disaggregate performance and capacity and the capacity can be moved to where you need it. So previously, you could have thought of a box saying, okay, it has this performance or capacity range or boundary, but let's think about it beyond the box. Let's think about it as a portfolio. My application needs performance or capacity for storage, what if I could bring the resources to it? So with Evergreen Flex within the QLC family with our FlashBlade and our FlashArray QLC projects, you could actually move QLC capacity to where you need it. And with FlashArray X and XL or TLC family, you could move capacity to where you need it within that family. Now, if you're enabling that, you have to change the business model because the capacity needs to get build where you use it. If you use it in a high performance tier, you could build at a high performance rate. If you use it as a lower performance tier, you could build at a lower performance rate. So we changed the business model to enable this technology flexibility, where customers can buy the hardware and they get a pay per use consumption model for the software and services, but this enables the technology flexibility to use your capacity wherever you need. And we're just continuing that journey of hyper disaggregated. >> Okay, so you solve the problem of having to allocate specific capacity or performance to a particular workload. You can now spread that across whatever products in the portfolio, like you said, you're disaggregating performance and capacity. So that's very cool. Maybe you could double click on that. You obviously talk to customers about doing this. They were in pain a little bit, right? 'Cause they had this sort of stovepipe thing. So talk a little bit about the customer feedback that led you here. >> Well, look, let's just say today if you're an application developer or you haven't written your app yet, but you know you're going to. Well, you need that at least say I need something, right? So someone's going to ask you what kind of storage do you need? How many IOPS, what kind of performance capacity, before you've written your code. And you're going to buy something and you're going to spend that money. Now at that point, you're going to go write your application, run it on that box and then say, okay, was I right or was I wrong? And you know what? You were guessing before you wrote the software. After you wrote the software, you can test it and decide what you need, how it's going to scale, et cetera. But if you were wrong, you already bought something. In a hyper disaggregated world, that capacity is not a sunk cost, you can use it wherever you want. You can use capacity of somewhere else and bring it over there. So in the world of application development and in the world of storage, today people think about, I've got a workload, it's SAP, it's Oracle, I've built this custom app. I need to move it to a tier of storage, a performance class. Like you think about the application and you think about moving the application. And it takes time to move the application, takes performance, takes loan, it's a scheduled event. What if you said, you know what? You don't have to do any of that. You just move the capacity to where you need it, right? >> Yep. >> So the application's there and you actually have the ability to instantaneously move the capacity to where you need it for the application. And eventually, where we're going is we're looking to do the same thing across the performance hearing. So right now, the biggest benefit is the agility and flexibility a customer has across their fleet. So Evergreen was great for the customer with one array, but Evergreen Flex now brings that power to the entire fleet. And that's not tied to just FlashArray or FlashBlade. We've engineered a data plane in our direct flash fabric software to be able to take on the personality of the system it needs to go into. So when a data pack goes into a FlashBlade, that data pack is optimized for use in that scale out architecture with the metadata for FlashBlade. When it goes into a FlashArray C it's optimized for that metadata structure. So our Purity software has made this transformative to be able to do this. And we created a business model that allowed us to take advantage of this technology flexibility. >> Got it. Okay, so you got this mutually interchangeable performance and capacity across the portfolio beautiful. And I want to come back to sort of the Purity, but help me understand how this is different from just normal Evergreen, existing evergreen options. You mentioned the one array, but help us understand that more fully. >> Well, look, so in addition to this, like we had Evergreen Gold historically. We introduced Evergreen Flex and we had Pure as a service. So you had kind of two spectrums previously. You had Evergreen Gold on one hand, which modernized the performance and capacity of a box. You had Pure as a service that said don't worry about the box, tell me how many IOPS you have and will run and operate and manage that service for you. I think we've spoken about that previously on theCUBE. >> Yep. >> Now, we have this model where it's not just about the box, we have this model where we say, you know what, it's your fleet. You're going to run and operate and manage your fleet and you could move the capacity to where you need it. So as we started thinking about this, we decided to unify our entire portfolio of sub software and subscription services under the Evergreen brand. Evergreen Gold we're renaming to Evergreen Forever. We've actually had seven customers just crossed a decade of updates Forever Evergreen within a box. So Evergreen Forever is about modernizing a box. Evergreen Flex is about modernizing your fleet and Evergreen one, which is our rebrand of Pure as a service is about modernizing your labor. Instead of you worrying about it, let us do it for you. Because if you're an application developer and you're trying to figure out, where should I put my capacity? Where should I do it? You can just sign up for the IOPS you need and let us actually deliver and move the components to where you need it for performance, capacity, management, SLAs, et cetera. So as we think about this, for us this is a spectrum and a continuum of where you're at in the modernization journey to software subscription and services. >> Okay, got it. So why did you feel like now was the right time for the rebranding and the renaming convention, what's behind? What was the thing? Take us inside the internal conversations and the chalkboard discussion? >> Well, look, the chalkboard discussion's simple. It's everything was built on the Evergreen stateless architecture where within a box, right? We disaggregated the performance and capacity within the box already, 10 years ago within Evergreen. And that's what enabled us to build Pure as a service. That's why I say like when companies say they built a service, I'm like it's not a service if you have to do a data migration. You need a stateless architecture that's disaggregated. You can almost think of this as the anti hyper-converge, right? That's going the other way. It's hyper disaggregated. >> Right. >> And that foundation is true for our whole portfolio. That was fundamental, the Evergreen architecture. And then if Gold is modernizing a box and Flex is modernizing your fleet and your portfolio and Pure as a service is modernizing the labor, it is more of a continuation in the spectrum of how do you ensure you get better with age, right? And it's like one of those things when you think about a car. Miles driven on a car means your car's getting older and it doesn't necessarily get better with age, right? What's interesting when you think about the human body, yeah, you get older and some people deteriorate with age and some people it turns out for a period of time, you pick up some muscle mass, you get a little bit older, you get a little bit wiser and you get a little bit better with age for a while because you're putting in the work to modernize, right? But where in infrastructure and hardware and technology are you at the point where it always just gets better with age, right? We've introduced that concept 10 years ago. And we've now had proven industry success over a decade, right? As I mentioned, our first seven customers who've had a decade of Evergreen update started with an FA-300 way back when, and since then performance and capacity has been getting better over time with Evergreen Forever. So this is the next 10 years of it getting better and better for the company and not just tying it to the box because now we've grown up, we've got customers with like large fleets. I think one of our customers just hit 900 systems, right? >> Wow. >> So when you have 900 systems, right? And you're running a fleet you need to think about, okay, how am I using these resources? And in this day and age in that world, power becomes a big thing because if you're using resources inefficiently and the cost of power and energy is up, you're going to be in a world of hurt. So by using Flex where you can move the capacity to where it's needed, you're creating the most efficient operating environment, which is actually the lowest power consumption environment as well. >> Right. >> So we're really excited about this journey of modernizing, but that rebranding just became kind of a no brainer to us because it's all part of the spectrum on your journey of whether you're a single array customer, you're a fleet customer, or you don't want to even run, operate and manage. You can actually just say, you know what, give me the guarantee in the SLA. So that's the spectrum that informed the rebranding. >> Got it. Yeah, so to your point about the human body, all you got to do is look at Tom Brady's NFL combine videos and you'll see what a transformation. Fine wine is another one. I like the term hyper disaggregated because that to me is consistent with what's happening with the cloud and edge. We're building this hyper distributed or disaggregated system. So I want to just understand a little bit about you mentioned Purity so there's this software obviously is the enabler here, but what's under the covers? Is it like a virtualizer or megaload balancer, metadata manager, what's the tech behind this? >> Yeah, so we'll do a little bit of a double tech, right? So we have this concept of drives where in Purity, we build our own software for direct flash that takes the NAND and we do the NAND management as we're building our drives in Purity software. Now ,that advantage gives us the ability to say how should this drive behave? So in a FlashArray C system, it can behave as part of a FlashArray C and its usable capacity that you can write because the metadata and some of the system information is in NVRAM as part of the controller, right? So you have some metadata capability there. In a legend architecture for example, you have a distributed Blade architecture. So you need parts of that capacity to operate almost like a single layer chip where you can actually have metadata operations independent of your storage operations that operate like QLC. So we actually manage the NAND in a very very different way based on the persona of the system it's going into, right? So this capacity to make it usable, right? It's like saying a competitor could go ahead name it, Dell that has power max in Isilon, HPE that has single store and three power and nimble and like you name, like can you really from a technology standpoint say your capacity can be used anywhere or all these independent systems. Everyone's thinking about the world like a system, like here's this system, here's that system, here's that system. And your capacity is locked into a system. To be able to unlock that capacity to the system, you need to behave differently with the media type in the operating environment you're going into and that's what Purity does, right? So we are doing that as part of our direct Flex software around how we manage these drives to enable this. >> Well, it's the same thing in the cloud precaution, right? I mean, you got different APIs and primitive for object, for block, for file. Now, it's all programmable infrastructure so that makes it easier, but to the point, it's still somewhat stovepipe. So it's funny, it's good to see your commitment to Evergreen, I think you're right. You lay down the gauntlet a decade plus ago. First everybody ignored you and then they kind of laughed at you, then they criticized you, and then they said, oh, then you guys reached the escape velocity. So you had a winning hand. So I'm interested in that sort of progression over the past decade where you're going, why this is so important to your customers, where you're trying to get them ultimately. >> Well, look, the thing that's most disappointing is if I bought 100 terabytes still have to re-buy it every three or five years. That seems like a kind of ridiculous proposition, but welcome to storage. You know what I mean? That's what most people do with Evergreen. We want to end data migrations. We want to make sure that every software updates, hardware updates, non disruptive. We want to make it easy to deploy and run at scale for your fleet. And eventually we want everyone to move to our Evergreen one, formerly Pure as a service where we can run and operate and manage 'cause this is all about trust. We're trying to create trust with the customer to say, trust us, to run and operate and scale for you and worry about your business because we make tech easy. And like think about this hyper disaggregated if you go further. If you're going further with hyper disaggregated, you can think about it as like performance and capacity is your Lego building blocks. Now for anyone, I have a son, he wants to build a Lego Death Star. He didn't have that manual, he's toast. So when you move to at scale and you have this hyper disaggregated world and you have this unlimited freedom, you have unlimited choice. It's the problem of the cloud today, too much choice, right? There's like hundreds of instances of this, what do I even choose? >> Right. >> Well, so the only way to solve that problem and create simplicity when you have so much choice is put data to work. And that's where Pure one comes in because we've been collecting and we can scan your landscape and tell you, you should move these types of resources here and move those types of resources there, right? In the past, it was always about you should move this application there or you should move this application there. We're actually going to turn the entire industry on it's head. It's not like applications and data have gravity. So let's think about moving resources to where that are needed versus saying resources are a fixed asset, let's move the applications there. So that's a concept that's new to the industry. Like we're creating that concept, we're introducing that concept because now we have the technology to make that reality a new efficient way of running storage for the world. Like this is that big for the company. >> Well, I mean, a lot of the failures in data analytics and data strategies are a function of trying to jam everything into a single monolithic system and hyper centralize it. Data by its very nature is distributed. So hyper disaggregated fits that model and the pendulum's clearly swinging to that. Prakash, great to have you, purestorage.com I presume is where I can learn more? >> Oh, absolutely. We're super excited and our pent up by demand I think in this space is huge so we're looking forward to bringing this innovation to the world. >> All right, hey, thanks again. Great to see you, I appreciate you coming on and explaining this new model and good luck with it. >> All right, thank you. >> All right, and thanks for watching. This is David Vellante, and appreciate you watching this Cube conversation, we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: theCUBE presents KubeCon and Cloud NativeCon Europe, 2022 brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome to Valencia, Spain. A coverage of KubeCon, Cloud NativeCon, Europe, 2022. I'm Keith Townsend. Your host of theCUBE, along with Paul Gillum, Senior Editor Enterprise Architecture for Silicon Angle, Enrico, Senior IT Analyst for GigaOm . This has been a full day, 7,500 attendees. I might have seen them run out of food, this is just unexpected. I mean, it escalated from what I understand, it went from capping it off at 4,000 gold, 5,000 gold in it off finally at 7,500 people. I'm super excited for... Today's been a great dead coverage. I'm super excited for tomorrow's coverage from theCUBE, but first off, we'll let the the new person on stage take the first question of the wrap up of the day of coverage, Enrico, what's different about this year versus other KubeCons or Cloud Native conversations. >> I think in general, it's the maturity. So we talk a lot about day two operations, observability, monitoring, going deeper and deeper in the security aspects of the application. So this means that for many enterprises, Kubernetes is becoming real critical. They want to get more control of it. And of course you have the discussion around FinOps, around cost control, because we are deploying Kubernetes everywhere. And if you don't have everything optimized, control, monitored, costs go to the roof and think about deploying the Public Cloud . If your application is not optimized, you're paying more. But also in that, on-premises if you are not optimized, you don't have any clear idea what is going to happen. So capacity planning become the nightmare, that we know from the past. So there is a lot of going on around these topics, really exciting actually, less infrastructure, more application. That is what Kubernetes is in here. >> Paul help me separate some of the signal from the noise. There is a lot going on a lot of overlap. What are some of the big themes of takeaways for day one that Enterprise Architects, Executives, need to take home and really chew on? >> Well, the Kubernetes was a turning point. Docker was introduced nine years ago, and for the first three or four years it was an interesting technology that was not very widely adopted. Kubernetes came along and gave developers a reason to use containers. What strikes me about this conference is that this is a developer event, ordinarily you go to conferences and it's geared toward IT Managers, towards CIOs, this is very much geared toward developers. When you have the hearts and minds of developers the rest of the industry is sort of pulled along with it. So this is ground zero for the hottest area of the entire computing industry right now, is in this area building Distributed services, Microservices based, Cloud Native applications. And it's the developers who are leading the way. I think that's a significant shift. I don't see the Managers here, the CIOs here. These are the people who are pulling this industry into the next generation. >> One of the interesting things that I've seen when we've always said, Kubernetes is for the developers, but we talk with an icon from MoneyGram, who's a end user, he's an enterprise architect, and he brought Kubernetes to his front end developers, and they rejected it. They said, what is this? I just want to develop code. So when we say Kubernetes is for developers or the developers are here, how do we reconcile that mismatch of experience? We have Enterprise Architect here. I hear constantly that the Kubernetes is for developers, but is it a certain kind of developer that Kubernetes is for? >> Well, yes and no. I mean, so the paradigm is changing. Okay. So, and maybe a few years back, it was tough to understand how make your application different. So microservices, everything was new for everybody, but actually, everything has changed to a point and now the developer understands, is neural. So, going through the application, APIs, automation, because the complexity of this application is huge, and you have, 724 kind of development sort of deployment. So you have to stay always on, et cetera, et cetera. And actually, to the point of developers bringing this new generation of decision makers in there. So they are actually decision, they are adopting technology. Maybe it's a sort of shadow IT at the very beginning. So they're adopting it, they're using it. And they're starting to use a lot of open source stuff. And then somebody upper in the stack, the Executive, says what are... They discover that the technology is already in place is a critical component, and then it's transformed in something enterprise, meaning paying enterprise services on top of it to be sure support contract and so on. So it's a real journey. And these guys are the real decision makers, or they are at the base of the decision making process, at least >> Cloud Native is something we're going to learn to take for granted. When you remember back, remember the Fail Whale in the early days of Twitter, when periodically the service would just crash from traffic, or Amazon went through the same thing. Facebook went through the same thing. We don't see that anymore because we are now learning to take Cloud Native for granted. We assume applications are going to be available. They're going to be performant. They're going to scale. They're going to handle anything we throw at them. That is Cloud Native at work. And I think we forget sometimes how refreshing it is to have an internet that really works for you. >> Yeah, I think we're much earlier in the journey. We had Microsoft on, the Xbox team talked about 22,000 pods running Linkerd some of the initial problems and pain points around those challenges. Much of my hallway track conversation has been centered around as we talk about the decision makers, the platform teams. And this is what I'm getting excited to talk about in tomorrow's coverage. Who's on the ground doing this stuff. Is it developers as we see or hear or told? Or is it what we're seeing from the Microsoft example, the MoneyGram example, where central IT is getting it. And not only are they getting it, they're enabling developers to simply write code, build it, and Kubernetes is invisible. It seems like that's become the Holy Grail to make Kubernetes invisible and Cloud Native invisible, and the experience is much closer to Cloud. >> So I think that, it's an interesting, I mean, I had a lot of conversation in the past year is that it's not that the original traditional IT operations are disappearing. So it's just that traditional IT operation are giving resources to these new developers. Okay, so it's a sort of walled garden, you don't see the wall, but it's a walled garden. So they are giving you resources and you use these resources like an internal Cloud. So a few years back, we were talking about private Cloud, the private Cloud as let's say the same identical paradigm of the Public Cloud is not possible, because there are no infinite resources or well, whatever we think are infinite resources. So what you're doing today is giving these developers enough resources to think that they are unlimited and they can do automatic operationing and do all these kind of things. So they don't think about infrastructure at all, but actually it's there. So IT operation are still there providing resources to let developers be more free and agile and everything. So we are still in a, I think an interesting time for all of it. >> Kubernetes and Cloud Native in general, I think are blurring the lines, traditional lines development and operations always were separate entities. Obviously with DevOps, those two are emerging. But now we're moving when you add in shift left testing, shift right testing, DevSecOps, you see the developers become much more involved in the infrastructure and they want to be involved in infrastructure because that's what makes their applications perform. So this is going to cause, I think IT organizations to have to do some rethinking about what those traditional lines are, maybe break down those walls and have these teams work much closer together. And that should be a good thing because the people who are developing applications should also have intimate knowledge of the infrastructure they're going to run on. >> So Paul, another recurring theme that we've heard here is the impact of funding on resources. What have your discussions been around founders and creators when it comes to sourcing talent and the impact of the markets on just their day to day? >> Well, the sourcing talent has been a huge issue for the last year, of course, really, ever since the pandemic started. Interestingly, one of our guests earlier today said that with the meltdown in the tech stock market, actually talent has become more available, because people who were tied to their companies because of their stock options are now seeing those options are underwater and suddenly they're not as loyal to the companies they joined. So that's certainly for the startups, there are many small startups here, they're seeing a bit of a windfall now from the tech stock bust. Nevertheless, skills are a long term problem. The US educational system is turning out about 10% of the skilled people that the industry needs every year. And no one I know, sees an end to that issue anytime soon. >> So Enrico, last question to you. Let's talk about what that means to the practitioner. There's a lot of opportunity out there. 200 plus sponsors I hear, I think is worth the projects is 200 plus, where are the big opportunities as a practitioner, as I'm thinking about the next thing that I'm going to learn to help me survive the next 10 or 15 years of my career? Where you think the focus should be? Should it be that low level Cloud builder? Or should it be at those levels of extraction that we're seeing and reading about? >> I think that it's a good question. The answer is not that easy. I mean, being a developer today, for sure, grants you a salary at the end of the month. I mean, there is high demand, but actually there are a lot of other technical figures in the data center, in the Cloud, that could really find easily a job today. So, developers is the first in my mind also because they are more, they can serve multiple roles. It means you can be a developer, but actually you can be also with the new roles that we have, especially now with the DevOps, you can be somebody that supports operation because you know automation, you know a few other things. So you can be a sysadmin of the next generation even if you are a developer, even if when you start as a developer. >> KubeCon 2022, is exciting. I don't care if you're a developer, practitioner, a investor, IT decision maker, CIO, CXO, there's so much to learn and absorb here and we're going to be covering it for the next two days. Me and Paul will be shoulder to shoulder, I'm not going to say you're going to get sick of this because it's just, it's all great information, we'll help sort all of this. From Valencia, Spain. I'm Keith Townsend, along with my host Enrico Signoretti, Paul Gillum, and you're watching theCUBE, the leader in high tech coverage. (upbeat music)

>>The cube presents, Coon and cloud native con Europe 22, brought to you by the cloud native computing foundation. >>Welcome to Valencia Spain and coverage of Q con cloud native con Europe, 2022. I'm Keith Townsend. You're a host of the cube along with Paul Gillum, senior editor, enterprise architecture for Silicon angle, ENCO, senior ready, senior it analyst for giga own. Uh, this has been a full day, 7,500 attendees. I might have seen them run out of food. This is just unexpected. I mean, they, the, it escalated from what understand it went from four, capping it off to 4,000 gold, 5,000 gold in and off. Finally at 7,500 people. I'm super excited for, you know, today's been a great day of coverage. I'm super excited for tomorrow's coverage, uh, from the cube. But first off, we'll let the, the new person on stage take the, the first question of, of the wrap up of the day of coverage, UN Rico on Rico. What's different about this year versus other Q coupons or cloud native conversations. >>I, I think in general, it's the maturity. So we talk it a lot about day two operations, uh, observability monitoring, uh, going deeper and deeper in the security aspects of the application. So this means that for many enterprises, Kubernetes is becoming real critical. They want to, to get more control of it. And of course you have the discussion around Phen op around, you know, uh, cost control because we are deploying Kubernetes everywhere. And, and if you don't have everything optimized control, monitor it, you know, uh, cost to the roof and think about, uh, deploying the public cloud. If your application is not optimized, you're paying more, but also in the on premises, if you are not optimiz, you don't have the clear idea of what is going to happen. So capacity planning become the nightmare that we know from the past. So there is a lot of going on around these topics, uh, really exciting, actually less infrastructure, more replication. That is what Kubernetes is India. >>Paul help me separate some of the signal from the noise. Uh, there is a lot going on a lot of overlap. What are some of the big themes of takeaways for day one that enterprise architects executives need to take home and really chew >>On? Well, the Kubernetes was a turning point. You know, Docker was introduced nine years ago and for the first three or four years, it was an interesting technology that was not very widely adopted. Kubernetes came along and gave developers a reason to use containers. What strikes me about this conference is that this is a developer event, you know, ordinarily you go to conferences and it's geared toward it managers towards CIOs. This is very much geared toward developers when you have the hearts and minds of developers, the rest of the industry is sort of pulled along with it. So this is ground zero for the hottest, uh, the, the hottest area of the entire computing industry. Right now, I is in this area building distributed services, BA microservices based cloud native applications. And it's the developers who are leading the way. I think that's, that's a significant shift. I don't see the managers here, the CIOs here, these are the people who are, uh, who are pulling this industry into the next generation. >>Um, one of the interesting things that I've seen when we, you know, we've always said, Kubernetes is for the developers, but we talk with, uh, an icon from, uh, MoneyGram. Who's a end user, he's an enterprise architect. And he brought Kubernetes to his front end developers and they, they, they kind of rejected it. They said, what is this? I just wanna develop cold. So when we say Kubernetes is for developers, or the developers are here, where, how do we reconcile that mismatch of experience? We have enterprise architecture. I hear constantly that, that the, uh, Kubernetes is for developers, but is it a certain kind of developer that Kubernetes is for? >>Well, yes and no. I mean, so the paradigm is changing. Okay. So, and maybe a few years back, it was tough to understand how, you know, uh, uh, make your application different. So microservices, everything was new for everybody, but actually, so everything is changed to a point. Now, the developer understands, you know, it is neural. So, you know, going through the application APIs automation, because the complexity of this application is, is huge. And you have, you know, 7 24 kind of development, uh, sort of deployment. So you have to stay always on cetera, et cetera. And actually to the point of, you know, developers, uh, you know, bringing this new generation of, uh, decision makers in India. So they are actually decision, they are adopting technology. Maybe it's a sort of shadow it at the very beginning. So they're adopting it, they're using it. And they're starting to use a lot of open source stuff. And then somebody upper in the stack, the executive says, what are, yeah, they, they discover that the technology is already in place is, uh, is a critical component. And then it's, uh, you know, uh, transformed in something enterprise, meaning, you know, paying enterprise services on top of it to be sure con uh, contract and so on. So it's a real journey. And these are, these guys are the real decision makers. Oh, they are at the base of the decision making process. At least >>Cloud native is something we're gonna learn to take for granted. You know, when you remember back, remember the fail whale in the early days of Twitter, when periodically the service would just would just, uh, um, crash from, uh, from, uh, traffic or Amazon went through the same thing. Facebook went through the same thing. We don't see that anymore because we are now learning to take cloud native for granted. We assume applications are gonna be available. They're gonna be performant. They're gonna scale. They're gonna handle anything. We throw at them that is cloud native at work. And I think we, we forget sometimes how refreshing it is to have, uh, an internet that really works for you. >>Yeah. I, I think we're much earlier in the journey. You know, we have Microsoft, uh, on the Xbox team talked about 22,000 pods running ni D some of the initial problems and pain points of, uh, around those challenges. Uh, much of my hallway track conversation has been centered around as we talk about kind of the decision makers, the platform teams. And this is what I'm getting excited to talk about in tomorrow's coverage. Who's on the ground doing this stuff. Is it developers as we are, as, as we see or hear or told, or is it what we're seeing from the Microsoft example, the MoneyGram example where central it is kind of getting it, and not only are they getting it, they're enabling developers to, to simply write code, build it. And Kubernetes is invisible. It seems like that's become the holy grill to make Kubernetes invisible cloud native invisible, and the experience is much closer to cloud. >>So I, I think that, uh, um, it's an interesting, I mean, I had a lot of conversation in the past year is that it's not that the original, you know, traditional it operations are disappearing. So it's just that, uh, traditional it operation are giving resources to these new developers. Okay. So it's a, it's a sort of walled garden. You don't see the wall, but it's a walled garden. So they are giving you resources and you use these resources like an internal cloud. So a few years back, we were talking about private cloud, the private cloud, as, you know, as a, let's say, uh, the same identical paradigm of, of the public cloud. This is not possible because there are no infinite resources or, well, whatever we, we think are infinite resources. So what you're doing today is giving these developers enough resources to think that they are unlimited and they can, uh, do automatic provisioning and do all these kind of things. So they don't think about infrastructure at all, but actually it's there. So it operation are still there providing resources to let developers be more free and agile and everything. So we are still in a, I think in an interesting time for all of it, >>Kubernetes and cloud native in general, I think are blurring the lines, traditional lines development and operations always were separate entities, obviously through with DevOps. Those two are emerging, but now we're moving. When you add in shift left testing shift, right? Testing, uh, dev SecOps, you see the developers become much more involved in the infrastructure and they want to be involved in infrastructure because that's what makes their applications perform. So this is gonna, cause I think it organizations to have, do some rethinking about what those traditional lines are, maybe break down those walls and have these teams work, work much closer together. And that should be a good thing because the people who are developing applications should also have intimate knowledge of the infrastructure they're gonna run on. >>So Paul, another recurring theme that we've heard here is the impact of funding on resources. What have you, what have your discussions been around founders and creators when it comes to sourcing talent and the impact of the markets on just their day to day? >>Well, the sourcing talent has been a huge issue for the last year. Of course, really ever since the pandemic started interesting. We, uh, one of our, our guests earlier today said that with the meltdown in the tech stock market, actually talent has become more available because people who were tied to their companies because of their, their stock options are now seeing those options are underwater. And suddenly they're not as loyal to the companies they joined. So that's certainly for the, for the startups. Uh, there are many small startups here. Um, they're seeing a bit of a windfall now from the, uh, from the tech stock, uh, bust, um, nevertheless skills are a long term problem. The us, uh, educational system is turning out about 10% of the skilled people that the industry needs every year. And no one I know, sees an end to that issue anytime soon. >>So ENGO, last question to you, let's talk about what that means to the practitioner. There's a lot of opportunity out >>There. >>200 plus sponsors I hear here I think is, or the projects is 200 plus, where are the big opportunities as a practitioner, as I'm thinking about the next thing that I'm going to learn to help me survive the next 10 or 15 years of my career? Where, where do you think the focus should be? Should it be that low level, uh, cloud builder, or should it be at those Le levels of extraction that we're seeing and reading about? >>I, I think, I think that, uh, you know, it's, uh, it's a good question. The, the answer is not that easy. I mean, uh, being a developer today, for sure grants, you, you know, uh, a salary at the end of the month, I mean, there is high demand, but actually there are a lot of other technical, uh, figures in, in the, in, uh, in the data center in the cloud that could, you know, really find easily a job today. So developers is the first in my mind also because they are more, uh, they, they can serve multiple roles. It means you can be a developer, but actually you can be also, you know, with the new roles that we have, especially now with the DevOps, you can be, uh, somebody that supports operation because, you know, automation, you know, a few other things. So you can be a C admin of the next generation, even if you're a developer, even if when you start as a developer, >>Cuan 20, 22 is exciting. I don't care if you're a developer practitioner, a investor, a, uh, it decision maker is CIO CXO. They're so much to learn and absorb here and we're going to be covering it for the next two days. Me and Paul will be shoulder to shoulder. We will, you, I'm not gonna say you're gonna get sick of this because it's just, you know, it's all great information. We'll, we'll, we'll help sort all of this from Valencia Spain. I'm Keith Townsend, along with my host ENCO senior, the Paul Gillon. And you're watching the, you, the leader in high tech coverage.

>> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR. This is "Breaking Analysis" with Dave Vellante. >> When Facebook changed its name to Meta last fall, it catalyzed a chain reaction throughout the tech industry. Software firms, gaming companies, chip makers, device manufacturers, and others have joined in hype machine. Now, it's easy to dismiss the metaverse as futuristic hyperbole, but do we really believe that tapping on a smartphone, or staring at a screen, or two-dimensional Zoom meetings are the future of how we work, play, and communicate? As the internet itself proved to be larger than we ever imagined, it's very possible, and even quite likely that the combination of massive processing power, cheap storage, AI, blockchains, crypto, sensors, AR, VR, brain interfaces, and other emerging technologies will combine to create new and unimaginable consumer experiences, and massive wealth for creators of the metaverse. Hello, and welcome to this week's Wiki Bond Cube Insights, powered by ETR. In this "Breaking Analysis" we welcome in cyber expert, hacker gamer, NFT expert, and founder of ORE System, Nick Donarski. Nick, welcome, thanks so much for coming on theCUBE. >> Thank you, sir, glad to be here. >> Yeah, okay, so today we're going to traverse two parallel paths, one that took Nick from security expert and PenTester to NFTs, tokens, and the metaverse. And we'll simultaneously explore the complicated world of cybersecurity in the enterprise, and how the blockchain, crypto, and NFTs will provide key underpinnings for digital ownership in the metaverse. We're going to talk a little bit about blockchain, and crypto, and get things started there, and some of the realities and misconceptions, and how innovations in those worlds have led to the NFT craze. We'll look at what's really going on in NFTs and why they're important as both a technology and societal trend. Then, we're going to dig into the tech and try to explain why and how blockchain and NFTs are going to lay the foundation for the metaverse. And, finally, who's going to build the metaverse. And how long is it going to take? All right, Nick, let's start with you. Tell us a little bit about your background, your career. You started as a hacker at a really, really young age, and then got deep into cyber as a PenTester. You did some pretty crazy stuff. You have some great stories about sneaking into buildings. You weren't just doing it all remote. Tell us about yourself. >> Yeah, so I mean, really, I started a long time ago. My dad was really the foray into technology. I wrote my first program on an Apple IIe in BASIC in 1989. So, I like to say I was born on the internet, if you will. But, yeah, in high school at 16, I incorporated my first company, did just tech support for parents and teachers. And then in 2000 I transitioned really into security and focused there ever since. I joined Rapid7 and after they picked up Medis boy, I joined HP. I was one of their founding members of Shadowlabs and really have been part of the information security and the cyber community all throughout, whether it's training at various different conferences or talking. My biggest thing and my most awesome moments as various things of being broken into, is really when I get to actually work with somebody that's coming up in the industry and who's new and actually has that light bulb moment of really kind of understanding of technology, understanding an idea, or getting it when it comes to that kind of stuff. >> Yeah, and when you think about what's going on in crypto and NFTs and okay, now the metaverse it's you get to see some of the most innovative people. Now I want to first share a little bit of data on enterprise security and maybe Nick get you to comment. We've reported over the past several years on the complexity in the security business and the numerous vendor choices that SecOps Pros face. And this chart really tells that story in the cybersecurity space. It's an X,Y graph. We've shown it many times from the ETR surveys where the vertical axis, it's a measure of spending momentum called net score. And the horizontal axis is market share, which represents each company's presence in the data set, and a couple of points stand out. First, it's really crowded. In that red dotted line that you see there, that's 40%, above that line on the net score axis, marks highly elevated spending momentum. Now, let's just zoom in a bit and I've cut the data by those companies that have more than a hundred responses in the survey. And you can see here on this next chart, it's still very crowded, but a few call-outs are noteworthy. First companies like SentinelOne, Elastic, Tanium, Datadog, Netskope and Darktrace. They were all above that 40% line in the previous chart, but they've fallen off. They still have actually a decent presence in the survey over 60 responses, but under that hundred. And you can see Auth0 now Okta, big $7 billion acquisition. They got the highest net score CrowdStrike's up there, Okta classic they're kind of enterprise business, and Zscaler and others above that line. You see Palo Alto Networks and Microsoft very impressive because they're both big and they're above that elevated spending velocity. So Nick, kind of a long-winded intro, but it was a little bit off topic, but I wanted to start here because this is the life of a SecOps pro. They lack the talent in a capacity to keep bad guys fully at bay. And so they have to keep throwing tooling at the problem, which adds to the complexity and as a PenTester and hacker, this chaos and complexity means cash for the bad guys. Doesn't it? >> Absolutely. You know, the more systems that these organizations find to integrate into the systems, means that there's more components, more dollars and cents as far as the amount of time and the engineers that need to actually be responsible for these tools. There's a lot of reasons that, the more, I guess, hands in the cookie jar, if you will, when it comes to the security architecture, the more links that are, or avenues for attack built into the system. And really one of the biggest things that organizations face is being able to have engineers that are qualified and technical enough to be able to support that architecture as well, 'cause buying it from a vendor and deploying it, putting it onto a shelf is good, but if it's not tuned properly, or if it's not connected properly, that security tool can just hold up more avenues of attack for you. >> Right, okay, thank you. Now, let's get into the meat of the discussion for today and talk a little bit about blockchain and crypto for a bit. I saw sub stack post the other day, and it was ripping Matt Damon for pedaling crypto on TV ads and how crypto is just this big pyramid scheme. And it's all about allowing criminals to be anonymous and it's ransomware and drug trafficking. And yes, there are definitely scams and you got to be careful and lots of dangers out there, but these are common criticisms in the mainstream press, that overlooked the fact by the way that IPO's and specs are just as much of a pyramid scheme. Now, I'm not saying there shouldn't be more regulation, there should, but Bitcoin was born out of the 2008 financial crisis, cryptocurrency, and you think about, it's really the confluence of software engineering, cryptography and game theory. And there's some really powerful innovation being created by the blockchain community. Crypto and blockchain are really at the heart of a new decentralized platform being built out. And where today, you got a few, large internet companies. They control the protocols and the platform. Now the aspiration of people like yourself, is to create new value opportunities. And there are many more chances for the little guys and girls to get in on the ground floor and blockchain technology underpins all this. So Nick, what's your take, what are some of the biggest misconceptions around blockchain and crypto? And do you even pair those two in the same context? What are your thoughts? >> So, I mean, really, we like to separate ourselves and say that we are a blockchain company, as opposed to necessarily saying(indistinct) anything like that. We leverage those tools. We leverage cryptocurrencies, we leverage NFTs and those types of things within there, but blockchain is a technology, which is the underlying piece, is something that can be used and utilized in a very large number of different organizations out there. So, cryptocurrency and a lot of that negative context comes with a fear of something new, without having that regulation in place, without having the rules in place. And we were a big proponent of, we want the regulation, right? We want to do right. We want to do it by the rules. We want to do it under the context of, this is what should be done. And we also want to help write those rules as well, because a lot of the lawmakers, a lot of the lobbyists and things, they have a certain aspect or a certain goal of when they're trying to get these things. Our goal is simplicity. We want the ability for the normal average person to be able to interact with crypto, interact with NFTs, interact with the blockchain. And basically by saying, blockchain in quotes, it's very ambiguous 'cause there's many different things that blockchain can be, the easiest way, right? The easiest way to understand blockchain is simply a distributed database. That's really the core of what blockchain is. It's a record keeping mechanism that allows you to reference that. And the beauty of it, is that it's quote unquote immutable. You can't edit that data. So, especially when we're talking about blockchain, being underlying for technologies in the future, things like security, where you have logging, you have keeping, whether you're talking about sales, where you may have to have multiple different locations (indistinct) users from different locations around the globe. It creates a central repository that provides distribution and security in the way that you're ensuring your data, ensuring the validation of where that data exists when it was created. Those types of things that blockchain really is. If you go to the historical, right, the very early on Bitcoin absolutely was made to have a way of not having to deal with the fed. That was the core functionality of the initial crypto. And then you had a lot of the illicit trades, those black markets that jumped onto it because of what it could do. The maturity of the technology though, of where we are now versus say back in 97 is a much different world of blockchain, and there's a much different world of cryptocurrency. You still have to be careful because with any fed, you're still going to have that FUD that goes out there and sells that fear, uncertainty and doubt, which spurs a lot of those types of scams, and a lot of those things that target end users that we face as security professionals today. You still get mailers that go out, looking for people to give their social security number over during tax time. Snail mail is considered a very ancient technology, but it still works. You still get a portion of the population that falls for those tricks, fishing, whatever it might be. It's all about trying to make sure that you have fear about what is that change. And I think that as we move forward, and move into the future, the simpler and the more comfortable these types of technologies become, the easier it is to utilize and indoctrinate normal users, to be able to use these things. >> You know, I want to ask you about that, Nick, because you mentioned immutability, there's a lot of misconceptions about that. I had somebody tell me one time, "Blockchain's Bs," and they say, "Well, oh, hold on a second. They say, oh, they say it's a mutable, but you can hack Coinbase, whatever it is." So I guess a couple of things, one is that the killer app for blockchain became money. And so we learned a lot through that. And you had Bitcoin and it really wasn't programmable through its interface. And then Ethereum comes out. I know, you know a lot about Ether and you have solidity, which is a lot simpler, but it ain't JavaScript, which is ubiquitous. And so now you have a lot of potential for the initial ICO's and probably still the ones today, the white papers, a lot of security flaws in there. I'm sure you can talk to that, but maybe you can help square that circle about immutability and security. I've mentioned game theory before, it's harder to hack Bitcoin and the Bitcoin blockchain than it is to mine. So that's why people mine, but maybe you could add some context to that. >> Yeah, you know it goes to just about any technology out there. Now, when you're talking about blockchain specifically, the majority of the attacks happen with the applications and the smart contracts that are actually running on the blockchain, as opposed to necessarily the blockchain itself. And like you said, the impact for whether that's loss of revenue or loss of tokens or whatever it is, in most cases that results from something that was a phishing attack, you gave up your credentials, somebody said, paste your private key in here, and you win a cookie or whatever it might be, but those are still the fundamental pieces. When you're talking about various different networks out there, depending on the blockchain, depends on how much the overall security really is. The more distributed it is, and the more stable it is as the network goes, the better or the more stable any of the code is going to be. The underlying architecture of any system is the key to success when it comes to the overall security. So the blockchain itself is immutable, in the case that the owner are ones have to be trusted. If you look at distributed networks, something like Ethereum or Bitcoin, where you have those proof of work systems, that disperses that information at a much more remote location, So the more disperse that information is, the less likely it is to be able to be impacted by one small instance. If you look at like the DAO Hack, or if you look at a lot of the other vulnerabilities that exist on the blockchain, it's more about the code. And like you said, solidity being as new as it is, it's not JavaScript. The industry is very early and very infantile, as far as the developers that are skilled in doing this. And with that just comes the inexperience and the lack of information that you don't learn until JavaScript is 10 or 12 years old. >> And the last thing I'll say about this topic, and we'll move on to NFTs, but NFTs relate is that, again, I said earlier that the big internet giants have pretty much co-opted the platform. You know, if you wanted to invest in Linux in the early days, there was no way to do that. You maybe have to wait until red hat came up with its IPO and there's your pyramid scheme folks. But with crypto it, which is again, as Nick was explaining underpinning is the blockchain, you can actually participate in early projects. Now you got to be careful 'cause there are a lot of scams and many of them are going to blow out if not most of them, but there are some, gems out there, because as Nick was describing, you've got this decentralized platform that causes scaling issues or performance issues, and people are solving those problems, essentially building out a new internet. But I want to get into NFTs, because it's sort of the next big thing here before we get into the metaverse, what Nick, why should people pay attention to NFTs? Why do they matter? Are they really an important trend? And what are the societal and technological impacts that you see in this space? >> Yeah, I mean, NFTs are a very new technology and ultimately it's just another entry on the blockchain. It's just another piece of data in the database. But how it's leveraged in the grand scheme of how we, as users see it, it can be the classic idea of an NFT is just the art, or as good as the poster on your wall. But in the case of some of the new applications, is where are you actually get that utility function. Now, in the case of say video games, video games and gamers in general, already utilize digital items. They already utilize digital points. As in the case of like Call of Duty points, those are just different versions of digital currencies. You know, World of Warcraft Gold, I like to affectionately say, was the very first cryptocurrency. There was a Harvard course taught on the economy of WOW, there was a black market where you could trade your end game gold for Fiat currencies. And there's even places around the world that you can purchase real world items and stay at hotels for World of Warcraft Gold. So the adoption of blockchain just simply gives a more stable and a more diverse technology for those same types of systems. You're going to see that carry over into shipping and logistics, where you need to have data that is single repository for being able to have multiple locations, multiple shippers from multiple global efforts out there that need to have access to that data. But in the current context, it's either sitting on a shipping log, it's sitting on somebody's desk. All of those types of paper transactions can be leveraged as NFTs on the blockchain. It's just simply that representation. And once you break the idea of this is just a piece of art, or this is a cryptocurrency, you get into a world where you can apply that NFT technology to a lot more things than I think most people think of today. >> Yeah, and of course you mentioned art a couple of times when people sold as digital art for whatever, it was 60, 65 million, 69 million, that caught a lot of people's attention, but you're seeing, I mean, there's virtually infinite number of applications for this. One of the Washington wizards, tokenized portions of his contract, maybe he was creating a new bond, that's really interesting use cases and opportunities, and that kind of segues into the latest, hot topic, which is the metaverse. And you've said yourself that blockchain and NFTs are the foundation of the metaverse, they're foundational elements. So first, what is the metaverse to you and where do blockchain and NFTs, fit in? >> Sure, so, I mean, I affectionately refer to the metaverse just a VR and essentially, we've been playing virtual reality games and all the rest for a long time. And VR has really kind of been out there for a long time. So most people's interpretation or idea of what the metaverse is, is a virtual reality version of yourself and this right, that idea of once it becomes yourself, is where things like NFT items, where blockchain and digital currencies are going to come in, because if you have a manufacturer, so you take on an organization like Nike, and they want to put their shoes into the metaverse because we, as humans, want to individualize ourselves. We go out and we want to have that one of one shoe or that, t-shirt or whatever it is, we're going to want to represent that same type of individuality in our virtual self. So NFTs, crypto and all of those digital currencies, like I was saying that we've known as gamers are going to play that very similar role inside of the metaverse. >> Yeah. Okay. So basically you're going to take your physical world into the metaverse. You're going to be able to, as you just mentioned, acquire things- I loved your WOW example. And so let's stay on this for a bit, if we may, of course, Facebook spawned a lot of speculation and discussion about the concept of the metaverse and really, as you pointed out, it's not new. You talked about why second life, really started in 2003, and it's still around today. It's small, I read recently, it's creators coming back into the company and books were written in the early 90s that used the term metaverse. But Nick, talk about how you see this evolving, what role you hope to play with your company and your community in the future, and who builds the metaverse, when is it going to be here? >> Yeah, so, I mean, right now, and we actually just got back from CES last week. And the Metaverse is a very big buzzword. You're going to see a lot of integration of what people are calling, quote unquote, the metaverse. And there was organizations that were showing virtual office space, virtual malls, virtual concerts, and those types of experiences. And the one thing right now that I don't think that a lot of organizations have grasp is how to make one metaverse. There's no real player one, if you will always this yet, There's a lot of organizations that are creating their version of the metaverse, which then again, just like every other software and game vendor out there has their version of cryptocurrency and their version of NFTs. You're going to see it start to pop up, especially as Oculus is going to come down in price, especially as you get new technologies, like some of the VR glasses that look more augmented reality and look more like regular glasses that you're wearing, things like that, the easier that those technologies become as in adopting into our normal lifestyle, as far as like looks and feels, the faster that stuff's going to actually come out to the world. But when it comes to like, what we're doing is we believe that the metaverse should actually span multiple different blockchains, multiple different segments, if you will. So what ORE system is doing, is we're actually building the underlying architecture and technologies for developers to bring their metaverse too. You can leverage the ORE Systems NFTs, where we like to call our utility NFTs as an in-game item in one game, or you can take it over and it could be a t-shirt in another game. The ability for having that cross support within the ecosystem is what really no one has grasp on yet. Most of the organizations out there are using a very classic business model. Get the user in the game, make them spend their money in the game, make all their game stuff as only good in their game. And that's where the developer has you, they have you in their bubble. Our goal, and what we like to affectionately say is, we want to bring white collar tools and technology to blue collar folks, We want to make it simple. We want to make it off the shelf, and we want to make it a less cost prohibitive, faster, and cheaper to actually get out to all the users. We do it by supporting the technology. That's our angle. If you support the technology and you support the platform, you can build a community that will build all of the metaverse around them. >> Well, and so this is interesting because, if you think about some of the big names, we've Microsoft is talking about it, obviously we mentioned Facebook. They have essentially walled gardens. Now, yeah, okay, I could take Tik Tok and pump it into Instagram is fine, but they're really siloed off. And what you're saying is in the metaverse, you should be able to buy a pair of sneakers in one location and then bring it to another one. >> Absolutely, that's exactly it. >> And so my original kind of investment in attractiveness, if you will, to crypto, was that, the little guy can get an early, but I worry that some of these walled gardens, these big internet giants are going to try to co-op this. So I think what you're doing is right on, and I think it's aligned with the objectives of consumers and the users who don't want to be forced in to a pen. They want to be able to live freely. And that's really what you're trying to do. >> That's exactly it. You know, when you buy an item, say a Skin in Fortnite or Skin in Call of Duty, it's only good in that game. And not even in the franchise, it's only good in that version of the game. In the case of what we want to do is, you can not only have that carry over and your character. So say you buy a really cool shirt, and you've got that in your Call of Duty or in our case, we're really Osiris Protocol, which is our proof of concept video game to show that this all thing actually works, but you can actually go in and you can get a gun in Osiris Protocol. And if we release, Osiris Protocol two, you'll be able to take that to Osiris Protocol two. Now the benefit of that is, is you're going to be the only one in the next version with that item, if you haven't sold it or traded it or whatever else. So we don't lock you into a game. We don't lock you into a specific application. You own that, you can trade that freely with other users. You can sell that on the open market. We're embracing what used to be considered the black market. I don't understand why a lot of video games, we're always against the skins and mods and all the rest. For me as a gamer and coming up, through the many, many years of various different Call of Duties and everything in my time, I wish I could still have some this year. I still have a World of Warcraft account. I wasn't on, Vanilla, Burning Crusade was my foray, but I still have a character. If you look at it that way, if I had that wild character and that gear was NFTs, in theory, I could actually pass that onto my kid who could carry on that character. And it would actually increase in value because they're NFT back then. And then if needed, you could trade those on the open market and all the rest. It just makes gaming a much different thing. >> I love it. All right, Nick, hey, we're out of time, but I got to say, Nick Donarski, thanks so much for coming on the program today, sharing your insights and really good luck to you and building out your technology platform and your community. >> Thank you, sir, it's been an absolute pleasure. >> And thank you for watching. Remember, all these episodes are available as podcasts, just search "Breaking Analysis Podcast", and you'll find them. I publish pretty much every week on siliconangle.com and wikibond.com. And you can reach me @dvellante on Twitter or comment on my LinkedIn posts. You can always email me david.vellante@siliconangle.com. And don't forget, check out etr.plus for all the survey data. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE Insights, powered by ETR, happy 2022 be well, and we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

>>From the Bellagio hotel in Las Vegas. It's the cube covering UI path forward for brought to you by UI path. >>Welcome back to Las Vegas. Live the cube. Yes, it's live in Las Vegas at the Bellagio. Lisa Martin, with Dave Alante, we are covering UI path forward for very excited to be here, talking with customers, UI path, employees, partners, lots of great conversations going on about automation and the acceleration that we're seeing, especially in the last 18 months. We've got two guests here with me today to talk about emerging technologies, specifically continuous process discovery. Please welcome Paula Katikia VP of product management at UI path and Layla Deleage CIO and digital officer at Coca Cola. Ladies, welcome to >>The program. Thank you. It's great to be here. So let's >>Talk about public. Let's start with you. Continuous process discovery. Define that for us. What does that mean? >>So process discovery has been, um, a concept that's been around for awhile, right? It's enterprises have a bunch of processes that are deployed and people are following them. Um, the concept of discovery has existed. What we're trying to do with continuous process discovery is enable you to identify the processes, figure out how to optimize them and then automate them once they're automated, we want to monitor them and then keep doing that cycle over and over again, using technology rather than having fill in, having people fill in paperwork and then having those processes go out of, um, out of, um, status, like right away, because they're just becoming stale with continuous process discovery. They don't become stale. You're getting that real time feedback loop and you're getting the processes to work and to end continuously. >>So I wonder if I could follow up on that because I remember when you guys made the acquisition of process gold. And so as somebody who's heavily involved in product management, how did you go about, I mean, it's been, sounds like it's seamless, but it never is. Right. But how did you go about integrating and making it appear as though it's just kind of part of the platform? >>I mean, there's a lot goes into that right. Process gold was a great technology to begin with. So it wasn't a huge stretch for us to take it and integrate it and make it part of the platform. Um, typically when we acquire companies, we look for product market fit. We look for a technology fit. We look for people fit and we had that with process gold. The other thing to add there is a process discovery, um, specifically with Parsis gold and automation go hand in hand, you can't having one without the other is kind of leaving half of your solution on the table and just focusing on understanding and not focusing on implementation. And so it was very easy to take that technology and make it part of the hyper automation platform. >>Well, the reason why I asked that question is because it sort of coincides with a customer's journey where you go from sort of a individual department. And then now you're saying, I always say pave the cow path. And I kind of take a process that I know I'll just implement that even might not be the best I'm going to repeat and takes you to a new realm. And so this is, to me, this is all about how incumbent companies, a hundred plus year old companies can actually be digital disruptors as opposed to being disrupted themselves. Right? A lot of smart people running these big companies. So last time we talked, you were relatively new inside of a year. So how's the journey going. And, and how does it tie in to some of the advancements that UI path has made? Yeah, >>Absolutely. So the journey is going great. I like to work to use accelerate. So I'm here to accelerate and transform and why we have to do it is so that we don't become obsolete and we continue to be relevant for our customers, for our employees. They're important and for our community. So the are doing a lot of finished running a lot of initiatives. When you look at being relevant for the customer, that means we have to transform the way we operate and our business models. We have to generate new revenue streams now that are enabled and based on data and technology, while you do that, you have to create efficiency internally. You cannot create great experiences with customers and you work with very monolithic and very old school, traditional processes or based off working and systems. So you have to make sure that you adapt and change and transform the way you work internally to meet the customer's needs and demand and generate these new business models. >>So our starting position was automation. We have to automate at an extreme speed, but we also wanted to go really far without automation, not just fast and hit with task automation and just automate these traditional 50, 60 year old processes, but have Doobie identify what else is there? There's a wealth of opportunity when you look at an end to end process. So that's where process mining as Polak described, comes into play. And actually we started affiliating with process mining during process gold. So your question around how the integration went, we actually went through that. I think the UI pads, one key value that they have, and they should never use is listening to the customer. So the got to get her with iPads. And we said, there's more to what we can do with automation. And we implemented process mining for one end to end process, amazing results, just one country, one end to end process, amazing results. But it's because of the partnership. We know what we need to achieve, but we have to do, and they know how to help us to get the technology up and running or adapt to technology and improve the technology. So that's where we are achieving outcomes. We are generating new business model, new revenue stream, automating internally re-skilling and up-skilling our people, which is extremely important that comes along with automation that redesign exciters sorry, but that redesign a work is >>Very important in the CEO's role is very important in that as well. I wanted to talk though about something that you just said with respect to the listening piece that you have is so good at this morning in the keynote. Mary said too, you know, all that, which was standing room only, which was amazing to see, um, in this day and age, but that they wanted to hear from customers. What are we doing? Right? What are we not doing that you want to see more of? What do you want to see less of? Talk to me about the direction and advice that you, as the CIO of Coca-Cola is able to provide to flock and the team about where you I've had this going, right. It's really on a very fast cadence. >>Absolutely. So as Coca-Cola TJ, we started the journey with two iPad, three years of work. Exactly. I was on the job and the second big technology decision I made was the iPad. And since then it was fear consistently think. But during our cab meeting, Daniel said something, he said, I'm not welcoming the request. He said, we welcome. He said, no, no, sorry. I am not welcoming. I'm requesting you to give us insight. And I think that's very critical. That's what we want to hear. At the end of the day, we are technologists. We are total leaders, but the are better taught leaders with our technology partners. So we want technology partners to show us the way sometimes. And with low code, no code type of approaches. And the evolution of the technology that UI path is, has been running since the past three years is helping us remove so many barriers. >>When it comes to people, they are listening to us in terms of the roadmap and what should be implemented and what should be prioritized VR, providing with them, our roadmap, our vision on where we want to go in automation and hugged battle. We want to integrate with other ecosystem and environments that we have. They are listening to us in terms of, for the existing products, what can be improved, what can work better? And we don't need a cab actually for you iPad to listen to us. We work hand in hand with two iPad team continuously be coil, you know, eight sometimes. So, and that's what we want them to continue to do. They are great technologists, as long as they continue to listen to us, they're going to be greater technology. >>Yeah. And I'll share my perspective on this, this, this, you know, these partnerships actually make us build better products, right? We get to, this is how we stay ahead of the curve by listening to our customers, because they're the ones who are doing the implementations. They understand how our product works. We can design it, we can test it. But that's the extent to which we can go once they implement it is when we know what's working, what's not working. And how do we take that feedback and make better products. So it's a two-way street. We love hearing from them constantly. >>You have to decode what the customer is saying sometimes, right? Like Steve jobs said, yeah, if you just ask the customer what they want, you'll never build, you know, something that's game changing the world changing. And so, so you have to talk to Layla, you get the input from COVID, Coca-Cola maybe many and then other customers to figure out, okay, how can I apply this? So that actually can scale and meet the needs of many customers. Not just so, because otherwise you end up being, you know, a custom development shop, which ironically is what you guys were 20 years ago. Right? So it's kind of some art involved in the science of listening. Isn't it? >>There is definitely, I mean, most of our job as product managers is to design the product, right? It's very much art and the feedback that we get from Layla and others, it really just helps us focus on a vision. But, you know, keeping up with new technology trends, figuring out how to figuring out how to, um, bring AI into our product vision and looking beyond what we're being told and asked for and looking forward at what the next trends are going to be in technology is what helps us continue to innovate. So it's both, it's the balance of what we're hearing, but also technologies. And what's possible with what's available >>Question for you. You said three years ago, you guys brought in UI path, right after you joined the company as it's CIO, why U I path, clearly you looked at some of the other folks, you mentioned that company that they acquired, but what in your mind differentiates what they're able to deliver on the partnership side and the technology side? >>Yeah. Very important question. We have a definition for a technology partner for us, the technology partner needs to meet criteria of innovating. So how much do you invest in innovation? And Daniel says, I don't even know the number, right? So because we want them to be on the forefront. Sometimes they have to pull us and sometimes we have to pull them. The second one is very important for a company to be successful in automation or in any advanced technology, you have to build intellectual property within your enterprise. And we did not want to art source technology. We wanted to insource technology and we asked you, I pad, if they would be reeling to co-innovate, co-develop collaborate with us. They were the only ones who allowed us to build the intellectual property within my enterprise, because that's the way I'm going to innovate. And that's the way I'm going to help product leaders like Pollock to create better products. Right? So, and the third one is just building expertise. Low-code no-code the technology company needs to, you know, wait where they remove some of the barriers for me to find the skills or develop talent, how easy it is to find the talent and skills to develop this technology. Right. And what, what does the technology company do to develop skills? So these are a few criteria that we have, and then when the company takes all of those, they are in, >>I'm interested in, um, to kind of shift the conversation. If I may, in your, your role, it's not uncommon to see a CIO and a chief digital officer together, but it's quite uncommon at a, at a large firm like Coca-Cola. And, and I'm wondering, is that how the company, cause your group sees information in digital? Is that how the company's organized? You know, that you plug into somebody who has that to a role. Can you talk about, >>Yeah, absolutely. So cocoli too. Jake is within the Coca-Cola system. We are one of the leading butlers within the Coca-Cola system. The reason I merged the two roles is to be successful in the digital era. When you have the digital and it separated. If it goes a little slower, you can not be successful in digital and you cannot be successful in generating new revenue streams or new business models. So you have to orchestrate that evolution and transformation of it and the rest of the business together. And that's why I merged the two roles. We are unique as Coca-Cola >>Merged them. You say you merged those roles, like, did you come at it from the, where you digital first and then CIO first >>Digital first. Okay. Great point. I built from scratch and started with the digital strategy. And then we went into defining what roles, what skills do we need? And then we redefined, what are the improvements we need on the it side? But it was all digital product based >>Because I think, uh, I think it would be much harder for a CIO, let alone a woman CIO, no offense, but I don't think there's any offense there, but oh, she's trying to do a land grab. I could see that happening, but the digital officer title, because that's the hot title and it's the visionary. Right. And it's a lot of times it's undefined. Yeah. So that's that and that, and that that's the structure of the organization. So you roll up into it. >>Uh, so yeah, because I came into the ex-con role. I had the privilege to kind of shape it from scratch. >>Exactly. And >>Like Shankar was talking about hidden brain and all the change this morning, it was a change in terms of how are we going to approach digital? It was a change in terms of all the people who are part of the company and people who have been in technology or it before right now, the expectations are very different. You have to be product organization, you have to be outcome centric. You have to generate the revenue streams. So it's very different from the world of it. I think any it or any technology leader can do this, if they are willing to transform themselves first and then their organization, and then they can transform the rest of the company, >>Chief digital officer data is a big part of your role. You're not the chief data officer, >>The organization, that's >>Part of your, okay, so the CDL reports into, okay, and that individual sure is responsible for governance and compliance. >>Well look, the data management, data governance, the foundation, and all the database solutions, I think >>You got it right. I think this idea of creating stovepipes, it just it's, it's not as productive and it's harder to make decisions that are aligned with the organization's goals, >>Boulder. So we're going to disrupt further. Our goal now is to create platforms and then democratize the platforms. So our operating partners can learn the new skills and they can develop their own use cases on the platforms. And that way they'll go much, further and much faster in terms of the generational new revenue, streams, changing, operating models, data and technology. I call it the new operating system of any business and everybody must learn >>Well. And that's what I want to ask you about, because if you think about, uh, uh, a company and incumbent, like Coca-Cola your processes over the years have in your data, maybe they were organized around the bottlers or the distribution channel, et cetera. And that might not be the best process. So you have to take a look at that and then use process mining to say, actually, what is the best process, reinvent yourself? Okay. >>Absolutely VRD and re-engineering and reinventing in a lot of places. Process mining helped us in short order to cash cycle. Everybody, every company has ordered to cash process. We took an order to cash process, which we recently standardized, by the way we thought we did. And every process mining told us that very few times you go through the happy path. Most of the times you go out of the happy path. So gave us a lot of tangible outcomes where we improve the cycle time. And it's an interesting process because you touch the customer it's impacts your delivery and your commitments to the customer. And it makes life easier for the employees. When you improve the process, this is only one piece VR also transforming the way we are interacting with our customers using digital means and digital channel. But one thing is very valuable with us while we do all of this staying hybrid is very important. Like with everything else, they do that human touch and personal relationship with our customers and consumers is invaluable. So we going to keep that doesn't matter how digital we go or how much technology we implement. They're going to keep the customer and consumer connect the most valuable asset that we have. >>Absolutely. It is. I'll go ahead. >>I was going to say, this is the one thing that, that we think about when we're designing our products, right? It's how can process my mining help you optimize your workflows, such that you can spend more time with the customer such that you can spend more time and get back to them faster. >>Yeah, that's critical. They, I always say the employee experience is inextricably linked to the customer experience. And so what you just talked about, you talked about so much stuff that I'd love to unpack. We probably don't have time, but coming in as with a transformation mindset, one being, you mentioned, you know, leaders need to be willing to embrace that. Obviously you were, but as a CIO, >>Working with UI path, you're really helping to redefine work. And also that customer experience, to an extent, how's your iPod helped facilitate that. So because they are listening and they are willing to partner with, and I think the most importantly, they're going to be part of our outcomes. They care about our outcomes. And going back to your question, how do we select a technology partner? That was one of the critical items. Outcomes are very critical. If there's no outcome, there's no point in it are not doing technology for the sake of doing it. We are, yes. We are all excited with what technology can bring and removing barriers very important, which is a huge, another huge topic. But if you don't generate an outcome it's meaningless and you AIPAC is willing to understand the outcome we are generating. So it's less of a commercial discussion, more of a technology and outcome conversation. >>So whether it's an customer outcome or an employee outcome or a cash outcome, financial outcome, I think that's why we have been successful. And they have been on the journey with you, iPad process mining. I think they are one of the very few clients, right? Customers of UI path who are using it. And because we are very progressive organization, you AIPAC is listening to our feedback and implementing back to your earlier question, you have so many customers who do you listen, right? So when you are progressive and when you really know what you are doing, you're also pulling your iPad, a big technology company into a direction that is more meaningful. So they listen to us in terms of what to improve with process mining. And that's why we were able to achieve the outcomes. And now they are listening to us further on further improvements on process mining so that we can capitalize on further outcomes and benefits of process mining >>In order to cash is common use cases. So what, what, uh, were there any diamonds in the rough, or do you suspect there are with, >>We already realized, yes. We realized multiple tangible outcomes. We discussed this with Polak earlier today. One of them is some very interesting, I'm not able to share, but the most critical one is be focused on improving cash cycle. It's scent. You can imagine extremely full flow business, even within FMCG, right? We as Coca-Cola system, we are an extremely flow business. It's an instant consumption business. Hence your delivery and cash cycles are very different compared to other industries. So we said, we want to improving cash. We discovered that the improved, the invoice due date change, which impacts the payment terms by 20%, we improved credit limits approvals by 5% by removing unnecessary approval steps. We realized there were unnecessary approvals. These two are directly impacting our customers as well because it's waiting in somebody's queue to handle those approvals. And the customer is not getting to delay delivery because it's payment, payment and delivery go hand in hand. >>And the third one is, and I'm not able to articulate it exact outcome, but it's a very critical day, every day gain on getting cash. So it's a cash game. The next big outcome is the cycle time improvements. So we significantly improve the cycle time of the process. And this means efficiency for our employees. We are making life easier for them. The last one is again, a tangible one 30,000 hours back in terms of productivity, one process, one country, 30,000 hours. And that translates into exactly that translates into benefit for the customer. You increase customer satisfaction, you increase employee satisfaction. 'cause you remove all the non-available for it. So going back to Pollock's point around continuous discovery, that's why we love it. It's like good old lean six Sigma lean six Sigma is exactly that you continuously, you want to continuously improve the process. You don't do it once with process mining. We don't want to do it once. We want to do it continuously, but this time with automation, >>But before we go, I'm the lone male on the panel. So I have to ask. So, so you CIO seat, chief digital role, very uncommon, let alone uncommon for a woman. Big time product management person. Okay. That's cool check. Right? You've been in the industry for a while now, a celebrity on the, on the cube and elsewhere. So has the pandemic, how has the pandemic affected the whole women in tech trend? Has it slowed it down? Has it accelerated? We were talking earlier about the working moms feeling like way stressed out more than the working dads, double 30% versus 15%. Has the pandemic in your minds altered in any way, was women in tech meme? How so positive. Negative. >>So we are trying to turn the negative into a positive. It is negative. Absolutely. I think it's impacted everybody, all, all women in all industries and in all areas of operation and workforce women in technology is already a very slim, right? It's a very tiny layer within any company and out there in the society. And unfortunately the challenges that came with COVID impacted and some of them had to leave and they couldn't stick around. Right. So we are trying to turn that into positive. As a digital function, we have a big give back initiative. It's a priority of the digital team. I'll be talking about that very in, in, and our technology removes barriers. So we have to turn this into a positive, yes, COVID has impacted everybody personally and directly or indirectly. But now with technology, we can remove barriers. We have now flexible working and hybrid working models, being ramped up across all geographies and all industries and all companies, technology removes barriers. >>We can teach technology to a lot of people and our communities and they can join because we have huge skill gaps in technology that would sat is we have huge scarcity of skills in technology. And we have very few people, but we are talking about women dropping out or any type of minor to dropping out, right? So we can leverage and improve and turn it around. I hope we'll accomplish to do that. We started doing that in our company and in Turkey. And we are trying to expand that across multiple other countries with NGO partnerships, helping women to gain certain skills so that they can join the economy again from wherever they are. >>And from my point of view, I think there are two aspects to it. As Layla said, it has affected women a little bit more, but I've also seen, in some cases it has leveled the playing field a little bit because there's, you know, everybody's on zoom. The kids show up on zoom cameras for men, just as much as they do for women. So it helps shine a light on things that we would normally go through that nobody would know about. And I thought that was a really cool outcome to some degree of this. You know, my manager prom has little kids and they'd be in his background all the time, just as my little kids would be by background. And I'm like, oh wow. So you know how it feels to be the caregiver at home. And I thought, I thought that was a positive outcome of the whole being a female in technology. I liked that >>That's something that I hadn't thought about in terms of leveling the playing field like that there's in this situation, there are both positives and negatives. I like how you're seeing the playing field level a bit more and how you're at. Coca-Cola looking to, how can we turn this negative into a positive lots of opportunities there we uncovered a lot in the last, I'm going to guess 20 minutes talking about continuous process discovery, all the way to women in technology, how you're each doing that and what your perspectives are. I wish we had more time. We could keep going, but ladies, thank you for joining David. >>It's been a pleasure >>For Dave Volante. I'm Lisa Martin live in Las Vegas at the Bellagio UI path forward for it. We'll be right back.