>>Yeah. Hello and welcome to the Cubes Presentation of Women in text. Global event Celebrating International Women's Day I'm John for a host of the Cube were with Sally E. Senior Policy Advisor Global Foundation for Cyber Studies and Research. Sally, great to see you. Thanks for coming on the cue for International Women's Day. Appreciate it. >>Pleasure, John. Great speech again. >>Love your title. Global Foundation for Cyber Studies. Um, global is a big part of the theme this year. Uh, cyber studies. We're seeing a lot of cyber activity all around the world, networks, communities coming together, the role of data. I mean, everything is touching our lives. There are no boundaries anymore. What does it all mean? There's so much to talk about your in the middle of it before we get into it. Tell us about your career and your history. How you got interested in tech and what you're working on. >>Absolutely. I love it. Kind of this age of convergence coming together right now, isn't it? That's how I would describe it. And that's kind of a bit like my career. I think in many ways as well. So for the audience, really great to be here and share about that today, and I kind of say, three main palace, so one would be emergent technologies. So, you know, I started off right through from coding to advisory to CTO type roles as well also change management. And now I'm more advisors right across from a I to five G to to Iot and security, for example as well. Also passionate about education checking education for me. They always go hand in hand, some a professor at a number of universities and in my non for profit, we really do a lot of outreach around educational opportunities as well. And that third pillar opponent hinted at it already will be social impact. So really passionate about how we can use tech as a force for good things around sustainability right at the heart of that, but also around diversity equity and inclusion. So we do a lot of pro project your locally and globally around kind of reframing what a tech career looks like, giving people more democratised access. Those tech opportunities outside of that a bit like yourself, you know, podcast host and writer and speaker and things as well, so very much going to building that community around key tech topics. >>Well, folks watching should check it out on Twitter. She's that great content you mentioned Mobile World Congress. Before we get on camera, you mentioned convergence. I mean, we're at a time now. I got to ask you while I got you here before we get into the whole schools and career tech thing, we've seen this movie before, but never at this scale. The convergence and the confluence of education and scale of cloud computing, the ability to level up and get, um, I won't say democratised. That's kind of overused. But I'm just talking about like with cloud computing could be educated and in market with a job instantly. Um, the barriers just seem to be moving away because of the the openings and the roles are changing. So, more than ever, this whole new tech scene comes together in a way. Can you share your thoughts and vision because to me, we're seeing this happening at such a scale unprecedented in my career? >>It is. And that's one of those words that the part had been overused, unprecedented, but right now it really, really is. It's not just a speed of change. I think it's a scale of change as well. You know, I think previously we've talked about disciplines in silos to a certain extent. Haven't we know in terms of like, an AI special is, um or five g one or other disciplines as well? But really, now that convergence about what one tech enables another, it really is that smart technology coming together for more and more different use cases, but that residents around how important education is alongside that alongside process alongside culture and shared values as well it really is. It's kind of holistic integration of everything that matters at the moment. And it's evolving business models as well. You know, shared values rights centre stage around that MWC just come back from that, And the key topics there weren't just by G, it was the importance of ecosystem collaboration. For example, there are less tracks that were isolated on one technology. It was more this conflation of these different technologies coming together and what we can achieve from that from business but also for society so really exciting focus areas now things that maybe once or a few years ago, more than periphery. They're now absolutely centre stage. So it's good to see that progress in that area. And I love to advocate around that. >>And the education piece is so important, and we always stay here in Cuba. It's a data problem, right? Everything's a data problem when you look at schools and education is structured and unstructured data kind of our our systems right, So structured as schools, institutions, those kinds of career paths or education pathways. And then you haven't structured freeform communities, seeing a lot more education going on within groups. Um, off structured environments like schools, Can you and you do a lot with schools? Can you share more how you're doing? Um uh, work with schools specifically on the structured side to get girls into careers faster and tech? And then can you also comment on the other side? What's going on in the communities because it's it's kind of going on in parallel, but they're not mutually exclusive. >>No, absolutely community, absolutely key word that I love that, and I think when we're talking about diversity and technology, it's not just what we're doing now with what we're looking at is looking ahead, but also looking at future pipeline as well. So for me, I use this express a little bit. But change the narrative. That's what springs to mind for me when we're talking about that, and particularly for girls going into technology but also more broadly, diversity of experience. More broadly, we do have these drop offs, so UK is one example, but it is really representative of the global trends that we're seeing. Now. We get a drop off of girls in particular, taking ice subjects at GCSE level so kind of that subject choice choice at 12 to 14, that kind of area. We get the same thing at a level that's equivalent of 16 to 18 and then even safer university or even apprenticeships, whichever both equally valid. But even if people are taking those types of skills, they're not then choosing to apply them in their careers. So we're seeing these kind of three pillars where we need to intervene earlier. So for me, the more that we can do things you know from dedicated educational offers, but equally partnering with tech companies to do outreach around this area. We need to go in younger and younger is so important to address that. Why? Why are people thinking they can't? Why is his career not for me, for example, so addressing that is huge. And that's one of the things we do with my nonprofit that's called aspirational futures. We go into schools and two universities, but equally do things with older adults and re Skilling and up Skilling as well. Because again, we can't leave that behind either. There's something for all different kind of age groups and backgrounds here, but specifically, I think, in terms of getting people interested in this career, curiosity matters. You know, I think it's an underrated skills. So it's changing the narrative again. And what the tech career actually is, what skills are valid? You know, I mentioned, I have a coding background as a starter. But not all tech careers involve coding, particularly the rise of low code or no code, for example as well. So really valued skill. But so many other skills are valid as well, you know, creativity or emotional intelligence problem solving skills. So for me, I like to drive forward. All those skills can make a difference as an individual, as a team, so your you know your tech career. All those skills are valid and you can make a huge difference. And I also think, you know, just kind of really bringing to the fore what different types of projects you can be involved in in tech as well. And I found really resonating when you can talk about tech for good projects and show how you're making a difference about some of those big challenges. Um, that's kind of really kind of resonating responsible people as well. So again, the more we can show tangible projects where you can make a difference and the whole range of skills that are involved in that it really helps people to think differently and gain that skills confidence. So it's like, >>Well, that's awesome insight. I want to just double click on that for a second, because one the drop off. Can you just repeat the ages where you see the drop off with the drop offs are >>absolutely yeah, no problem, John. So it's kind of when you're making your first choices around your first kind of qualifications. Between that 12 to 14 age group, 16 to 18 and then 18 to 21 I think we've really got to tackle that So again the earlier we can go in the better and again supporting people within organisations as well. So I do a lot of work like internally, with organisations as well people looking to up skill and re skill. You mentioned about data and the importance of data literacy earlier on in the conversation as well. For example, going into organisations and really helping to support people in all roles, not just tech facing roles develop that skills, confidence as well. So for me it's access to skills really bringing forward the difference. You can make that holistic range of skills that makes a difference, but also the confidence to apply them as well. You know, we talk about agility, of organisations, a lot areas, one of those kind of words in the last 12 months. But maybe we don't talk about personal agility and team agility as well. So I kind of talked about it. This little toolbox, if we can give people more and more things to draw from it, the only constant is this rate of change. If you've got more things in your armoury to cope with that and be an agile to that. It takes that fear away about what happens next because you feel you've got more skills to dip into it and to apply. So for me, it's that that confidence, not just the access to the skills >>and the other thing, too, I thought was insightful. I want to just reiterate and bring to the surface again as skills, right? So you don't have to be a coder. And I see I have two daughters just with my family. Yeah, I do python. They kind of put their toe in the water cause it's cool. Maybe that's a path, and they kind of don't like, maybe get into it. But it's not about coding anymore because you said low code, no code. Certainly. Maybe AI writes the code. We all see that happening. It's problem solving. It's you could be in health care and you could be nerd native, as we say, as on some of the other interviews of that year at the problem, solving the aperture of skills is much broader now. Can >>you share more than >>more than because with your with your programme and your nonprofit, I know you're in the middle of it, and this is important to get that out there. >>Absolutely so skills. You know, I think we need to change the focus on what skills make a difference if you see what I mean. I think you're absolutely right. There's some misconceptions about, you know, you want to go into tech, you need to be a coda. And you're right with the upscale around low Skilling. Sorry, Low code and the code opportunities. Um, I think the niches around being a specialist. Koda. We're gonna get more roles in that area, but in other areas, we need to look at different skills gap. So I'm advising people to look at where the gaps are now. So cyber security is a key example of that testing architecture. Those gaps are getting bigger. Their amazing skills, opportunities. They're so focused on a particular discipline. But it's all those skills that surround that that make a difference as well. So as I mentioned, you know, e Q creativity, communication skills, because it's not just about having the skills to build the future, knew that imagination to refocus about what that could even be. You know, that was one of the MWC 20 to refrain, reimagine and I love to kind of galvanise that spirit and people that you can be part of that, you know, wherever you are now. And I actually run a little series called 365, and you mentioned something right at the start of our conversation about International Women's Day being such an important focus area. But also we need to think about this beyond that as well. So hence that's the title of the series that I run because it's a focus on that every single day of the year. You know, I interviewed people that could be a C suite roles, but equally I've had some amazing interviews with 12 to 14 year olds, even younger, the youngest of the seven year old. He's doing like an amazing project in their kitchen with a three D printer working with local school or a hospice doing something around Ukraine. Another project we're doing at the moment, actually, and it's so resonating it's trying to show people wherever you are now, wherever you want to be, there's somebody relatable that you can make. You can see whatever sector, in whatever age, whatever background, and I think it's to give that inspiration. Hey, you know what I can do that that can be me. So visibility of role models, it really matters. And to really broaden out what role model looks like, you know? >>And then I think people out there you see yourself. I mean, this is what we been >>proven right? >>It's proven I want to get into the aspirational futures thing that you have going on, and I know this is important to you, but also something else you said was, is that there's more jobs open and say cybersecurity than ever before. And you're seeing this trend where all these new roles are emerging because of the tech that weren't around years ago, right? And so we've been having conversations in the Cube saying, Hey, all these roles are new, but also problems are new to these New new problems are surfacing because of the this new environment we're in. So these new roles still have to solve problems, so we need people to solve those problems. This is the future. This is the conversation that people are trying to get zero in on misinformation, cybersecurity, you name it. Society is changing with >>new. You >>have new new problems and new opportunities. Could you share your aspirational future? How you vector into that? >>Yeah, absolutely. And for me it's just again that we're convergence around people in technology and partnership, and that's what we aim to do. We do projects at a very local level, but equally we do them at national and international level as well. And one of our kind of people assume I'm talking pillars a lot, but I like it as a framework. So one of those esteem learning. So putting an equal value on the arts as well as science, technology, engineering, mathematics because I think they are. You know, as I mentioned before, hand that imagination, creativity, curiosity, collaboration, skills. They're equally valid as a different types of tech skills as well. We need an equal value and all of them. I think that's hugely important, important today. I think over the last 5 to 10 years, maybe there's been less of a focus within curriculums on the arts area than the other areas. So for me, putting that equal focus back is hugely important to navigate change, you know, I think that's that's that's absolutely key. So we focus on that area and we do a whole range of tech for good projects, and that's the way we help people to learn, you know, for example, data 90% at the moment of data isn't touched again when it's archived after three months. How can we turn that into a learning opportunity? For example? Some of the projects we use some of this is not going to be used again. We do it in a very safe, secure way, but we use that as one of our training aids, and then we apply them for local projects. We have initiatives from hackathons and ideation right through to very tangible hubs that we've actually built out where people can go, learn up skill and kind of learn through play and experimentation as well. Because again, I think that sometimes under explored that type of value and that freedom to be able to do that. And we also do things, change management skills. We talk about agile learning, agile technology need agile change management as well. So it's a very holistic skills. Look at what you need to navigate that future and have the confidence to apply them. So steam is very much our focus, applying them for tech for good projects and doing that externally, but also within organisations as well. So that very much is shared value approach to good business, but good for society as well. So yes, that this toolbox, that technology I applied earlier we really try and give people that support. To be able to do that, to move forward with confidence and optimism. >>I think adding the aid to stem really for steam is really smart because entrepreneurship or any problem solving creativity is the spark of innovation. >>And that's a super >>important skill. And we've seen it, whether it's startup or in a big company or in society, so super, super insightful. So I got to ask you, as a policy senior policy advisor on cyber studies globally, what are the core issues you're looking at right now? What are you shutting the light on and what's the most important thing you're working on? And then what's the most important thing you're working that people aren't talking about, that people should pay attention to >>Absolutely so. One of my key roles of the foundation is is kind of share of global trust. Essentially, um, and again trust is that one of the key issues of our time? One thing that people are talking about so much that relates with that actually is there's there's research from a group called The Woman. They've been looking at this for about 17 years or so. The research that came out most recently and I've got some original research that kind of support this as well is that for the first time ever, consumers are looking at organisations like tech organisations and other large organisations, in particular the enterprise level, really, as the bastions of trust to a bigger extent than NGOs or even governments. And that's the first time we've seen it at that level. So trust really really matters. It's one of the biggest differentiators of our time, so we're trying to help people. How do you establish trust? How do you build transparency, commitment and accountability, particularly in areas where there's currently confusion, so as one example going back Security zero Trust That phrase is used an awful lot, isn't it? But it's sometimes causing some confusion. Actually, it against what it's trying to deliver if you see what to me. So now I just do something recently with SMB s in particular and there is a confusion that effectively, you know, you could You could buy off the shelf and it's once and done. Um, And then we're sorted for the zero Trust security. And obviously it's not like that. It's an ongoing journey, and there's so many different constituent parts. So there's some things I'm seeing at the moment in the market with there's confusion around around certain language, for example. So again it goes back to backing things up with the technology but also research and awareness so we can see where those skills gaps are. You can see where there's awareness gaps are we can help to fill them. So that's an important part of that particular role bringing the technology in the culture and the education hand in hand together. So it's something I'm really passionate about, and for me sort of related to this, Um, I do a lot of work around S G, um, to the sustainable development goals. In particular, environmental and social governance is something that's becoming much more of a bigger kind of centre stage conversation. I'm an action point in a moment which is fantastic because this is something I've been involved in kind as long as I can remember. So I work directly with organisations like, um Unesco, lots of different professional bodies. It's kind of a huge driver for me. So one thing to kind of look out for that's coming very soon. I'm seeing an issue around around measurement in this area. You know, we're seeing consumers becoming more and more conscious and employees, you know you want to work for by from advocate organisations that have that same value alignment that you have personally and professionally, hugely important. We're seeing some great reports coming out around better e S g measurement. But it can be hard to compare between different organisations, so we are getting more transparency. But it's difficult sometimes to make fare comparisons. Um, so what I'm trying to do a lot of work on at the moment is how you go beyond that transparency to commitment to accountability and that deeper level and that comparability. So I would say kind of to the audience moment, Look out for a bit of a new index. It's going to help people, I think, make those conscious choices make informed choices. So it's something I'm super, super passionate about. I want to try and take that to next level in terms of its actualisation. >>That's awesome. And certainly we'll link to it on our site. All the work you're doing on interviews will put links there as well. We'll make sure we'll follow up on that. Great to have you on. You're such an inspiration. Amazing work, cutting edge work. And I'm I'm super impressed with the cyber studies, and I think this is really important. I have to ask you a final question because you're in the middle of it again with covid and the unfortunate situations we've been living with Covid. And now, obviously with this Ukraine situation that the cyber has been pulled to the front of the agenda and you're seeing a cultural shift. You certainly got Web three. Cyber is now part of everyone's life, and they can see it. They've been seeing it living it. Everything's been pulled forward as a cultural shift happening, okay, and and it's really interesting right now, and I want to get your thoughts because this now people are now aware what cyberwar means cyber security cyber. At home, I have remote work. Cyber has become front and centre or digital. However you want to call it in our lives pulled forward. >>So I'm not even sure in some >>cases, maybe rightfully so, and others. What's your view on this whole cultural cyber being pulled forward? >>It is. It's really, really interesting. And so one of the things I do is I am now ready to a Cyber Insights magazine as well. So we're developing a lot of content pieces around this and lots of things I'm seeing here. So your covid point, I think one of the most interesting things there is around literacy. For example, you remember when we went back to 18 months ago? We're having daily briefings, whether that's from from UK Parliament or the U. S. Equivalent. And different phrases were coming into everyday language driven by the curve or driven by the data. And they're coming into everyday life and people family kitchen table. It was something that hasn't been spoken about before, but suddenly it was driving everyday decision making and what you could and couldn't do. And that's raised awareness. And I think it helped people to ask better questions and to challenge things that they're seeing. And where has that data come from? How has it been presented to have seen that there? I think similarly, where we're having that same understanding and raise of questioning around what we're hearing around cyber as well. You're looking at where that source has come from, and how can we look at that in a different way? So again, I think it's raising that awareness, which is really, really crucial, >>the >>other thing as well around cyber security in particular. And again, I don't think this is talked about as much. When we talk about aspects around inclusion, we talk about diversity equity. Um, I'll see inclusion. I talk about belonging a lot as well. I think there's other aspects around sustainability that Inter relate as well, because when we find, for example, communities that are not included, they tend to be more adversely affected by, for example, climate factors as well. There's an interrelation. They're equally We find that people that haven't got, for example, the same level of cybersecurity protection are also in that same. There's an interrelation across all those elements were not talking about that either. So that's the other thing. I want to kind of bring attention to their again. They aren't separate conversations is a huge crossover between these different conversations and actions that we can do to make a difference. So there's some positive aspects about things that have happened over the last period of time and also some challenges that if we're aware of them, we can work together again, that collaboration piece to be able to overcome them. You know, I've got I've got a book coming out, all for charity called Tech for Good and one of my kind of tag lines. There is around contagion of positive change. Again, let's reframe the language around what's been happening. And let's kind of put that together is something that's far more positive. >>Language is super important, great >>content here. So >>thanks so much for coming. I really appreciate all the great insight and taking the time out of your busy day to to join us here in the Cube. Women in tech Global Event. Thank you so much. >>My absolute pleasure. Thank you. Thank you all for watching. >>Okay. The cubes presentation of women in text. Global event Celebrating International Women's Day. I'm John for a host of the Cube. Thanks for watching

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with coverage of Yukon and Cloud. Native Con North America. 2020. Virtual Brought to You by Red Hat, The Cloud, Native Computing Foundation and Ecosystem Partners Welcome back to the Cube. Virtual coverage of KUB Con Cloud native 2020. It's virtual this year. We're not face to face. Were normally in person where we have great interviews. Everyone's kind of jamming in the hallways, having a good time talking tech, identifying the new projects and knew where So we're not. There were remote. I'm John for your host. We've got two great gas, both Cuba alumni's Chris. And is it chief technology officer of the C and C F Chris, Welcome back. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on. Appreciate it. >>Awesome. Glad to be here. >>And, of course, another Cube alumni who is in studio. But we haven't had him at a Show Jr store meant executive director of the Fin Ops Foundation. And that's the purpose of this session. A interesting data point we're going to dig into how cloud has been enabling Mawr communities, more networks of practitioners who are still working together, and it's also a success point Chris on the C N C F vision, which has been playing out beautifully. So we're looking forward to digging. Jr. Thanks for coming on. Great to see you. >>Yeah, great to be here. Thanks, John. >>So, first of all, I want to get the facts out there. I think this is really important story that people should pay attention to the Finn Ops Foundation. That J. R. That you're running is really an interesting success point because it's it's not the c n c f. Okay. It's a practitioner that builds on cloud. Your experience in community you had is doing specific things that they're I won't say narrow but specific toe a certain fintech things. But it's really about the success of Cloud. Can you explain and and layout for take a minute to explain What is the fin Ops foundation and has it relate to see NCF? >>Yeah, definitely. So you know, if you think about this, the shift that we've had to companies deploying primarily in cloud, whether it be containers a ciencia focuses on or traditional infrastructure. The thing that typically people focus on right is the technology and innovation and speed to market in all those areas. But invariably companies hit this. We'd like to call the spend panic moment where they realize they're They're initially spending much more than they expected. But more importantly, they don't really have the processes in place or the people or the tools to do things like fully, you know, understand where their costs are going to look at how to optimize those to operate that in their organizations. And so the foundation pinups foundation eyes really focused on, uh, the people in practitioners who are in organizations doing cloud financial management, which is, you know, being those who drive this accountability of this variable spin model that's existed. So we were partnering very closely with, uh, see NCF. And we're now actually part of the Linux Foundation as of a few months ago, Uh, and you know, just to kind of put into context how that you kind of Iraq together, whereas, you know, CNC s very focused on open source coordinative projects, you know, For example, Spotify just launched their backstage cloud called Management Tool into CFCF Spotify folks, in our end, are working on the best practices around the cloud financial management that standards to go along with that. So we're there to help, you know, define this sort of cultural transformation, which is a shift to now. Engineers happen to think about costs as they never did before. On finance, people happen to partner with technology teams at the speed of cloud, and, you know executives happen to make trade off decisions and really change the way that they operate the business. With this variable page ago, engineers have all the access to spend the money in Cloud Model. >>Hey, blank check for engineers who doesn't like that rain that in its like shift left for security. And now you've got to deal with the financial Finn ops. It's really important. It's super point, Chris. In all seriousness. Putting kidding aside, this is exactly the kind of thing you see with open sores. You're seeing things like shift left, where you wanna have security baked in. You know what Jr is done in a fabulous job with his community now part of Linux Foundation scaling up, there's important things to nail down that is specific to that domain that are related to cloud. What's your thoughts on this? Because you're seeing it play out. >>Yeah, no, I mean, you know, I talked to a lot of our end user members and companies that have been adopting Cloud Native and I have lots of friends that run, you know, cloud infrastructure at companies. And Justus Jr said, You know, eventually there's been a lot of success and cognitive and want to start using a lot of things. Your bills are a little bit more higher than you expect. You actually have trouble figuring out, you know, kind of who's using what because, you know, let's be honest. A lot of the clouds have built amazing services. But let's say the financial management and cost management accounting tools charge back is not really built in well. And so I kind of noticed this this issue where it's like, great everyone's using all these services. Everything is great, But costs are a little bit confusing, hard to manage and, you know, you know, scientifically, you know, I ran into, you know, Jr and his community out there because my community was having a need of like, you know, there's just not good tools, standards, no practices out there. And, you know, the Finau Foundation was working on these kind of great things. So we started definitely found a way to kind of work together and be under the same umbrella foundation, you know, under the under Linux Foundation. In my personal opinion, I see more and more standards and tools to be created in this space. You know, there's, you know, very few specifications or standards and trying to get cost, you know, data out of different clouds and tools out there, I predict, Ah, lot more work is going to be done. Um, in this space, whether it's done and defendants foundation itself, CNC f, I think will probably be, uh, collaboration amongst communities. Can I truly figure this out? So, uh, engineers have any easier understanding of, you know, if I spent up the service or experiment? How much is this actually going to potentially impact the cost of things and and for a while, You know, uh, engineers just don't think about this. When I was at Twitter, we spot up services all time without really care about cost on, and that's happening a lot of small companies now, which don't necessarily have as a big bucket. So I'm excited about the space. I think you're gonna see a huge amount of focus on cloud financial management drops in the near future. >>Chris, thanks for that great insight. I think you've got a great perspective. You know, in some cases, it's a fast and loose environment. Like Twitter. You mentioned you've got kind of a blank check and the rocket ships going. But, Jr, this brings up to kind of points. This kind of like the whole code side of it. The software piece where people are building code, but also this the human error. I mean, we were playing with clubs, so we have a big media cloud and Amazon and we left there. One of the buckets open on the switches and elemental. We're getting charged. Massive amounts for us cash were like, Wait a minute, not even using this thing. We used it once, and it left it open. It was like the water was flowing through the pipes and charging us. So you know, this human error is throwing the wrong switch. I mean, it was simply one configuration error, in some cases, just more about planning and thinking about prototypes. >>Yeah. I mean, so take what your experience there. Waas and multiply by 1000 development teams in a big organization who all have access to cloud. And then, you know, it's it's and this isn't really about a set of new technologies. It's about a new set of processes and a cultural change, as Chris mentioned, you know, engineers now thinking about cost and this being a whole new efficiency metric for them to manage, right? You know, finance teams now see this world where it's like tomorrow. The cost could go three x the next day they could go down. You've got, you know, things spending up by the second. So there's a whole set of cross functional, and that's the majority of the work that are members do is really around. How do we get these cross functional teams working together? How do we get you know, each team up leveled on what they need, understand with cloud? Because not only is it, you know, highly variable, but it's highly decentralized now, and we're seeing, you know, cloud hit. These sort of material spend levels where you know, the big, big cloud spenders out there spending, you know, high nine figures in some cases you know, in cloud and it's this material for their for their businesses. >>And let's just let's be honest. Here is like Clouds, for the most part, don't really have a huge incentive in offering limits and so on. It's just, you know, like, hey, the more usage that the better And hopefully getting a group of practitioners in real figures. Well, holy put pressure to build better tools and services in this area. I think actually it is happening. I think Jared could correct me if wrong. I think AWS recently announced a feature where I think it's finally like quotas, you know, enabled, you know, you have introducing quotas now for and building limits at some level, which, you know, I think it's 2020 Thank you know, >>just to push back a little bit in support of our friends, you ask Google this company, you know, for a long time doing this work, we were worried that the cloud would be like, What are you doing? Are you trying to get our trying to minimize commitments and you know the dirty secret of this type of work? And I were just talking a bunch of practitioners today is that cloud spend never really goes down. When you do this work, you actually end up spending more because you know you're more comfortable with the efficiency that you're getting, and your CEO is like, let's move more workloads over. But let's accelerate. Let's let's do Maurin Cloud goes out more data centers. And so the cloud providers air actually largely incentivized to say, Yeah, we want people to be officially don't understand this And so it's been a great collaboration with those companies. As you said, you know, aws, Google, that you're certainly really focused in this area and ship more features and more data for you. It's >>really about getting smart. I mean, you know, they no, >>you could >>do it. I mean, remember the old browser days you could switch the default search engine through 10 menus. You could certainly find the way if you really wanted to dig in and make policy a simple abstraction layer feature, which is really a no brainer thing. So I think getting smarter is the right message. I want to get into the synergy Chris, between this this trend, because I think this points to, um kind of what actually happened here if you look at it at least from my perspective and correct me if I'm wrong. But you had jr had a community of practitioners who was sharing information. Sounds like open source. They're talking and sharing, you know? Hey, don't throw that switch. Do This is the best practice. Um, that's what open communities do. But now you're getting into software. You have to embed cost management into everything, just like security I mentioned earlier. So this trend, I think if you kind of connect the dots is gonna happen in other areas on this is really the synergy. Um, I getting that right with CNC >>f eso The way I see it is, and I dream of a future where developers, as they develop software, will be able to have some insight almost immediately off how much potential, you know, cost or impact. They'll have, you know, on maybe a new service or spinning up or potentially earlier in the development cycle saying, Hey, maybe you're not doing this in a way that is efficient. Maybe you something else. Just having that feedback loop. Ah lot. You know, closer to Deb time than you know a couple weeks out. Something crazy happens all of a sudden you notice, You know, based on you know, your phase or financial folks reaching out to you saying, Hey, what's going on here? This is a little bit insane. So I think what we'll see is, as you know, practitioners and you know, Jr spinoffs, foundation community, you know, get together share practices. A lot of them, you know, just as we saw on sense. Yeah, kind of build their own tools, models, abstractions. And, you know, they're starting to share these things. And once you start sharing these things, you end up with a you know, a dozen tools. Eventually, you know, sharing, you know, knowledge sharing, code sharing, you know, specifications. Sharing happens Eventually, things kind of, you know, become de facto tools and standards. And I think we'll see that, you know, transition in the thin ops community over the next 12 to 4 months. You know, very soon in my thing. I think that's kind of where I see things going, >>Jr. This really kind of also puts a riel, you know, spotlight and illustrates the whole developer. First cliche. I mean, it's really not a cliche. It's It's happening. Developers first, when you start getting into the calculations of our oi, which is the number one C level question is Hey, what's the are aware of this problem Project or I won't say cover your ass. But I mean, if someone kind of does a project that it breaks the bank or causes a, you know, financial problem, you know, someone gets pulled out to the back would shed. So, you know, here you're you're balancing both ends of the spectrum, you know, risk management on one side, and you've got return on investment on the other. Is that coming out from the conversation where you guys just in the early stages, I could almost imagine that this is a beautiful tailwind for you? These thes trends, >>Yeah. I mean, if you think about the work that we're doing in our practice you're doing, it's not about saving money. It's about making money because you actually want empower those engineers to be the innovation engines in the organization to deliver faster to ship faster. At the same time, they now can have, you know, tangible financial roo impacts on the business. So it's a new up leveling skill for them. But then it's also, I think, to Christmas point of, you know, people seeing this stuff more quickly. You know what the model looks like when it's really great is that engineers get near real time visibility into the impact of their change is on the business, and they can start to have conversations with the business or with their finance partners about Okay, you know, if you want me to move fast, I could move fast, But it's gonna cost this if you want me to optimize the cost. I could do that or I can optimize performance. And there's actually, you know, deeper are like conversation the candidate up. >>Now I know a lot of people who watch the Cube always share with me privately and Chris, you got great vision on this. We talked many times about it. We're learning a lot, and the developers are on the front lines and, you know, a lot of them don't have MBAs and, you know they're not in the business, but they can learn quick. If you can code, you can learn business. So, you know, I want you to take a minute Jr and share some, um, educational knowledge to developers were out there who have to sit in these meetings and have to say, Hey, I got to justify this project. Buy versus build. I need to learn all that in business school when I had to see s degree and got my MBA, so I kind of blended it together. But could you share what the community is doing and saying, How does that engineer sit in the meeting and defend or justify, or you some of the best practices what's coming out of the foundation? >>Yeah, I mean, and we're looking at first what a core principles that the whole organization used to line around. And then for each persona, like engineers, what they need to know. So I mean, first and foremost, it's It's about collaboration, you know, with their partners andan starting to get to that world where you're thinking about your use of cloud from a business value driver, right? Like, what is the impact of this? The critical part of that? Those early decentralization where you know, now you've got everybody basically taking ownership for their cloud usage. So for engineers, it's yes, we get that information in front of us quickly. But now we have a new efficiency metric. And engineers don't like inefficiency, right? They want to write fishing code. They wanna have efficient outcomes. Um, at the same time, those engineers need to now, you know, have ah, we call it, call it a common lexicon. Or for Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, folks. Ah, Babel fish that needs to be developed between these teams. So a lot of the conversations with engineers right now is in the foundation is okay. What What financial terms do I need to understand? To have meaningful conversations about Op X and Capex? And what I'm going to make a commitment to a cloud provider like a committed use discount, Google or reserved instance or savings Planet AWS. You know, Is it okay for me to make that? What? How does that impact our, you know, cost of capital. And then and then once I make that, how do I ensure that I could work with those teams to get that allocated and accounted? The right area is not just for charge back purposes, but also so that my teams can see my portion of the estate, right? And they were having the flip side of that conversation with all the finance folks of like, You need to understand how the variable cloud, you know, model works. And you need to understand what these things mean and how they impact the business. And then all that's coming together. And to the point of like, how we're working with C and C f you know, into best practices White papers, you know, training Siri's etcetera, sets of KP eyes and capabilities. Onda. All these problems have been around for years, and I wouldn't say they're solved. But the knowledge is out there were pulling it together. The new level that we're trying to talk with the NCF is okay. In the old world of Cloud, you had 1 to 1 use of a resource. You're running a thing on an instance in the new world, you're running in containers and that, you know, cluster may have lots of pods and name spaces, things inside of it that may be doing lots of different workloads, and you can no longer allocate. I've got this easy to instance and this storage to this thing it's now split up and very ephemeral. And it is a whole new layer of virtualization on top of virtual ization that we didn't have to deal with before. >>And you've got multiple cloud. I'll throw that in there, just make another dimension on it. Chris, tie this together cause this is nice energy to scale up what he's built with the community now, part of the Linux Foundation. This fits nicely into your vision, you know, perfectly. >>Yeah, no, 100% like, you know, so little foundation. You know, as you're well, well aware, is just a federation of open source foundations of groups working together to share knowledge. So it definitely fits in kind of the little foundation mission of, you know, building the largest share technology investment for, you know, humankind. So definitely good there with my kind of C and C f c T o hat, you know, on is, you know, I want to make sure that you know, you know my community and and, you know, the community of cloud native has access and, you know, knowledge about modern. You know, cloud financial management practices out there. If you look at some of the new and upcoming projects in ciencia things like, you know, you know, backstage, which came out of Spotify. They're starting to add functionality that, you know, you know, originally backstage kind of started out as this, you know, everyone builds their own service catalog to go catalog, and you know who owns what and, you know and all that goodness and developers used it. And eventually what happened is they started to add cost, you know, metrics to each of these services and so on. So it surfaces things a little bit closer, you know, a depth time. So my whole goal is to, you know, take some of these great, you know, practices and potential tools that were being built by this wonderful spinoffs community and trying to bring it into the project. You know, front inside of CNC F. So having more projects either exposed, you know, useful. You know, Finn, ops related metrics or, you know, be able to, you know, uh, you know, tool themselves to quickly be able to get useful metrics that could be used by thin ox practitioners out there. That's my kind of goal. And, you know, I just love seeing two communities, uh, come together to improve, improve the state of the world. >>It's just a great vision, and it's needed so and again. It's not about saving money. Certainly does that if you play it right, but it's about growth and people. You need better instrumentation. You need better data. You've got cloud scale. Why not do something there, right? >>Absolutely. It's just maturity after the day because, you know, a lot of engineers, you know, they just love this whole like, you know, rental model just uses many Resource is they want, you know, without even thinking about just basic, you know, metrics in terms of, you know, how many idle instances do I have out there and so, like, people just don't think about that. They think about getting the work done, getting the job done. And if they anything we do to kind of make them think a little bit earlier about costs and impact efficiency, charge back, you know, I think the better the world isn't Honestly, you know, I do see this to me. It's It's almost like, you know, with my hippie hat on. It's like Stephen Green or for the more efficient we are. You know, the better the world off cloud is coming. Can you grow? But we need to be more efficient and careful about the resource is that we use in sentencing >>and certainly with the pandemic, people are virtually you wanted mental health, too. I mean, if people gonna be pulling their hair out, worrying about dollars and cents at scale, I mean, people are gonna be freaking out and you're in meetings justifying why you did things. I mean, that's a time waster, right? I mean, you know, talking about wasting time. >>I have a lot of friends who, you know, run infrastructure at companies. And there's a lot of you know, some companies have been, you know, blessed during this, you know, crazy time with usage. But there is a kind of laser focused on understanding costs and so on and you not be. Do not believe how difficult it is sometimes even just to get, you know, reporting out of these systems, especially if you're using, you know, multiple clouds and multiple services across them. It's not. It's non trivial. And, you know, Jared could speak to this, But, you know, a lot of this world runs in like terrible spreadsheets, right and in versus kind of, you know, nice automated tools with potential, a p I. So there's a lot of this stuff. It's just done sadly in spreadsheets. >>Yeah, salute the flag toe. One standard to rally around us. We see this all the time Jr and emerging inflection points. No de facto kind of things develop. Kubernetes took that track. That was great. What's your take on what he just said? I mean, this is a critical path item for people from all around. >>Yeah, and it's It's really like becoming this bigger and bigger data problem is well, because if you look at the way the clouds are building, they're building per seconds and and down to the very fine grain detail, you know, or functions and and service. And that's amazing for being able to have accountability. But also you get people with at the end of the month of 300 gigabyte billing files, with hundreds of millions of rows and columns attached. So, you know, that's where we do see you companies come together. So yeah, it is a spreadsheet problem, but you can now no longer open your bill in a spreadsheet because it's too big. Eso you know, there's the native tools are doing a lot of work, you know, as you mentioned, you know, AWS and Azure Google shipping a lot. There's there's great, you know, management platforms out there. They're doing work in this area, you know, there's there's people trying to build their own open source the things like Chris was talking about as well. But really, at the end of the day like this, this is This is not a technology. Changes is sort of a cultural shift internally, and it's It's a lot like the like, you know, move from data center to cloud or like waterfall to Dev ops. It's It's a shift in how we're managing, you know, the finances of the money in the business and bringing these groups together. So it it takes time and it takes involvement. I'm also amazed I look like the job titles of the people who are plugged into the Phenoms Foundation and they range from like principal engineers to tech procurement. Thio you know, product leaders to C. T. O. S. And these people are now coming together in the classic to get a seat at the table right toe, Have these conversations and talk about not How do we reduce, you know, cost in the old eighties world. But how do we work together to be more quickly to innovate, to take advantage of these cognitive technologies so that we could be more competitive? Especially now >>it's automation. I mean, all these things are at play. It's about software. I mean, software defined operations is clearly the trend we've been covering. You guys been riding the wave cloud Native actually is so important in all these modern APS, and it applies to almost every aspect of stacks, so makes total sense. Great vision. Um, Chris props to you for that, Jr. Congratulations on a great community, Jerry. I'll give you the final word. Put a plug in for the folks watching on the fin ops Foundation where you're at. What are you looking to do? You adding people, What's your objectives? Take a minute to give the plug? >>Yeah, definitely. We were in open source community, which means we thrive on people contributing inputs. You know, we've got now almost 3000 practitioner members, which is up from 1500 just this this summer on You know, we're looking for those who have either an interesting need to plug into are checked advisory council to help define standards as part of this event, The cognitive gone we're launching Ah, white paper on kubernetes. Uh, and how to do confidential management for it, which was a collaborative effort of a few dozen of our practitioners, as well as our vendor members from VM Ware and Google and APP Thio and a bunch of others who have come together to basically defined how to do this. Well, and, you know, we're looking for folks to plug into that, you know, because at the end of the day, this is about everybody sort of up leveling their skills and knowledge and, you know, the knowledge is out there, nobody's head, and we're focused on how toe drive. Ah, you know, a central collection of that be the central community for it. You enable the people doing this work to get better their jobs and, you know, contribute more of their companies. So I invite you to join us. You know, if your practitioner ITT's Frito, get in there and plug into all the bits and there's great slack interaction channels where people are talking about kubernetes or pinups kubernetes or I need to be asked Google or where we want to go. So I hope you consider joining in the community and join the conversation. >>Thanks for doing that, Chris. Good vision. Thanks for being part of the segment. And, as always, C N C F. This is an enablement model. You throw out the soil, but the 1000 flowers bloom. You don't know what's going to come out of it. You know, new standards, new communities, new vendors, new companies, some entrepreneur Mike jump in this thing and say, Hey, I'm gonna build a better tool. >>Love it. >>You never know. Right? So thanks so much for you guys for coming in. Thanks for the insight. Appreciate. >>Thanks so much, John. >>Thank you for having us. >>Okay. I'm John Furry, the host of the Cube covering Coop Con Cloud, Native Con 2020 with virtual This year, we wish we could be there face to face, but it's cute. Virtual. Thanks for watching

>>Ly from San Diego, California at the cube covering to clock in cloud native con brought to you by red hat, the cloud native computing foundation and its ecosystem Marsh. >>Welcome back. This is the cube live coverage three days wall to wall coverage of CubeCon cloud native con in San Diego. I'm Stu Miniman. My cohost for these three days is John Troyer. And welcome to the program. First of all, from the keynote stage, Heather Kirksey, who is the vice president of community and ecosystem development with the Linux foundation for CNCF part of Linux foundation and from some of the technology behind the scenes joining her, Sandy Pennys are the SVP of strategic engagement at attorney. Thank you so much for joining us. Right. So Heather, this was a really cool demo with a lot of things going beyond the scene. Uh, if people actually go watch an interview we did yesterday, uh, with, uh, the people at red hat talk about, uh, it's a good thing. It was cloud native because there was a brownout cower was lost, had to rebuild the entire thing. Um, and everybody up on stage, you know, the next day, didn't know anything the wiser. So, uh, you know, really cool pot on stage. Uh, you know, talking about 5g global engagement, China mobile, uh, other banks. I like, um, I'm sorry, other mobile providers, uh, like from Canada and from Europe involved in this. Um, give us a little bit of the, the, the foundation view as to, you know, how something like this comes together and how you get participation from, you know, the technology providers, the telco providers. Uh, you know, it takes, it takes a village. >>First of all, you have to be slightly mad. Um, but I mean that's, that's really kind of the premise of open source, right? Is that people come together and they build things together. And so we done some demos in the past, um, where we looked at sort of, you know, the, the modernization of the central office. And so we had had some, you know, some tea, you know, some tapes of folks that had been building things. And then we, you know, we sent out a call basically to the community and said, yeah, we'd like to do another one. And what we're going to try to do is full five G full called native, if you're interested in joining, yo come on. And so it just ended up that basically 15 organizations said, yes, that sounds like something that we would like to prove out. And 80 volunteers across those organizations ended up working on it. >>My understanding was about four months, uh, to, to put all the pieces together, bring us, bring us through kinda, you know, how the stack gets built and. >>Yeah, well I mean, so amongst some of the issues where you have five G itself is fairly new. So we, we started with sort of the complexities of getting equipment, you know, and getting five G radio. You know, we had a partner in China who had a 5g handset that then wanted us to indemnify, you know, all of these things. Uh, to the extent that like we as a nonprofit didn't feel comfortable signing the agreement. So it was, you know, it started actually just, I mean, this was so cutting edge with in terms of the five G aspect that getting equipment was challenging. Um, yeah. And that's before you even get to sort of the challenges of building the stack. So, um, so, you know, it started kind of figuring out what pieces started building things, um, you know, found some yo gaps in Coobernetti's around supporting the, the, the sophistication of networking that we have to do. Um, so we figured out how to work around it for the demo, but what we want to do is start upstreaming some, um, some changes into, into some of the projects there. >>All right, so San Deepa, your company's one of the providers inside here. So tell us what, what drew you into it and how it is living on that bleeding edge was something like five. >>Well, it's, it's absolutely thrilling living on that leading edge. It's exciting, you know, lots of risks. But the payoff yesterday was fantastic. Be able to complete that call on stage. You know, from our perspective, we were invited in fairly early on into the project. Uh, and we're, we're thrilled to be part of it. And as once we understood the scope and what everyone's trying to do, we realized like we're providing the, the SD wan for this project, connecting the public cloud, the private cloud, and we're deploying, uh, using containers, Kubernetes. And we are able to bring the entire thing together by creating one virtual network so that it's seamless and all the underlying infrastructure, that layer, layer two, layer one, the underlay is just completely invisible to be able to transport that call, to do the signaling, to do everything that needs to be done. >>So for us to become part of this project was really powerful for one, for us to just, uh, just work with some of the companies that were there, like the Linux foundation and tell the Nobel all the other big name players that were out there. And so that was, that was amazing. An amazing experience. But then the community itself that came together, like the people that we met, we met them all at the show. It's all phone calls, we met them all at the show and it really is a community filled with love and a real drive and desire, uh, to build something new and different. Right. Sprinkled with a bit of crazy. >>Yeah. >>Well, so I mean this is a, is a great example of how the Linux foundation can be a catalyst here. I mean one of the Linux foundation is so broad, the CNCF is so broad and you're operating in many domains in this being, you know, bringing the telecom world together, being one of them. But I don't know, can you maybe just talk a little bit about the ecosystem and the unique challenges of, I mean there are some times open source approaches that are a little more strongly opinionated. Like this is going to be our, this is, this is what we're working on. This is going to be our stack. This is the projects in our stack. CNCF has a obviously a, a well documented and open, uh, process around bringing projects in and projects graduating. How does that make your >>life harder? >> Yeah. Well, I mostly focus on our networking projects and working with the telecom industry. And yeah, I mean Telekom definitely likes to be opinionated, you know, I mean that's, that's kind of, and our soul. Um, and so that is also is useful because really at the end of the day, interoperability for the type of scale that telecom operators has is very important. Right? It's um, yeah, some of the cloud providers, right? It's up to the people who want to run on them to like work with their API APIs. But the, the telecom operators, they're using all these applications to provide services to their customers so they have a business need to make sure everything really works end to end. And so there's actually an initiative right now between, um, the LF networking projects and the GSM, uh, where we're really trying to, not to prescriptively, because we do also understand that that doesn't know, you're not going to get the exact same pieces of software that worked for every single operator's network or business, but with a lot more sort of UPenn opinion around, you know, what should the cloud platforms, whether they are VM based or container based, what do they look like and how can we start doing things like compliance and verification programs around commercial implementations, whether it is the underlying platform or whether it's the applications on top. >>And so that's the thing that, you know, we're, we're working on right now because at the end of the day, we're really needing to help them accelerate their, their deployments and, um, get that agility. That's the promise of. >>So, Heather, I want to go back to something you mentioned earlier that there were some gaps in Coobernetti's speak to how fast the community rallied around to, you know, allow this, uh, solution to go forward. >>Yeah. So, um, I'll, I mean basically this is what happens when you get a bunch of engineers together, you know, for the demo itself, we weren't going to fork or make our own sort of changes Kubernetes. So we, we did some things to, to tie things together. Probably you've seen SD when I see Rampart. But yeah, one of the, one of the big issues is just being able to expose multiple interfaces. Um, which, you know, in a service writer network you have multiple interfaces, right? Um, fi six support is another big issue. And so being able to expose those natively in Kubernetes or natively just using cloud native, it's something that we're still working on. Um, there, there are a couple of projects that are looking at that um, network service mesh. Uh, you know, maybe there's some different CNI who are beginning to think through that problem. Um, none of them were quite there. So yeah, we didn't want to start forking and writing pseudo Kubernetes code. Um, so we kinda just use some of the tools and the players in place to work around that. But we, what we would love is to upstream that code and to main line. Sure. >>Yeah. So Sandy would love to hear a little bit more about how SD wind fits in the entire multicloud discussion. Um, we were, we had a pop here in San Diego. There's a lab in Montreal and then there is a, a lab in France and we use public, uh, a combination of, uh, the Alibaba cloud in North America and in Europe. And what we had to do is we had to create a way for the phones to reach each other. So we had to do this initial signaling where you do the request and you have to get to all of the different pods to make the, to make the request. So what we did is we put our, um, containers and all the, in all the cloud providers and also in the labs and we were able to create that private network. And that was what allowed for the call signaling to happen. >>And for the actual call to actually be completed from one to handset to the other. Cindy, you're uh, uh, you talked about community, you know, you're an engineer, a stye in our eyes, a word is SDN when a word, I suppose they usually hear more on an enterprise side of the show. Right. And, uh, you know, talk with lots of folks who provide, you know, in, in that space. This is a little bit different, right? As you, I don't know if you've had a chance to wander either in the sessions or on the floor, kind of curious. There is some, a little bit of networking out there, a little bit networking, security and a couple of other, certainly some service mesh stuff. Right. I don't know. What are your thoughts about how this is growing up on the, in this open source world? It's, listen, it's growing up very fast, right? >>That's, that's 100% sure. I mean, the show is, is, is growing like leaps and bounds every year. It's insane. And that, that, that debt, that performance yesterday was in front of, I don't know how many thousands of people, but I mean that was huge and it was amazing. Um, and you're right, you know, normally when you're thinking about this kind of stuff, you're not necessarily thinking about the networking, but at the end of the day, you know, Kubernetes is a platform or a tool. SD wan is a tool. Um, and if you take all of these tools and put them together, you can actually build something wonderful, right? And that's what we did in this project here. We were able to deliver a 5g call and you know, run it everywhere. So I think what's important in the community, even though this is really primarily a developer event and developer show, you are seeing some edge people here, you are seeing some networking people here and people are the awareness of, Oh wait, you know, we need edge and we need networking to actually build, you know, commercializable platforms or products, right. Is, it's that awareness that's just, I think this year at least is really starting to come out. And I think next year it's going to be even more prevalent and you're going to the show me evolve, you know? And that's why where I kind of see it going. >>Yeah. I mean, I think application developers and general tend to think networking is amazing. It just happens to be, they're sort of like plumbing and power. Um, but to actually deliver it is a fairly complicated challenge and it's part of the reason we want to do the demo yesterday was actually to kind of show some of the challenges and to kind of show what it takes to set up a mobile network. So the F we're going to use Kubernetes to do that. They, you know, the developers here would have a little bit more understanding so that when we were like, we need, you know, we need multiple interfaces or we need to be able to address things in a certain way. They, they, they have a better understanding of why so they can help us from the telecom industry, uh, design and build it out. >>Yeah. I guess the last thing is we've had the cube of the open source summit. We've been to the open networking summit. Uh, you know, when you get off the stage, you put, you know, there's so many different open source projects that Dan just give us a view as to how they span across all of these communities to make sure that we don't end up with a lot of fragmented things. How does everything kind of pull together in the networking? All right, so, so many projects across so many sources, how does, how does Linux foundation make sure that we don't just end up with, you know, siloed, uh, you know, places? >>Well, yeah, to be, to be honest, it's a little bit of a challenge because sometimes the reason that we end up with multiple projects serving what looks like similar needs is because there are different technical approaches. And so might be one will work better than the other. I mean, that's kind of the idea of open source that people can try different things. Um, and, uh, we just try to help people have more, less of a not invented here sort of mindset that if there's a good reason, uh, to try a different approach, go for it. And let's see what, what takes root and what flowers. Um, but you know, also other people are doing things, so just because you're not aware of them. So we, you know, there's a lot of stuff around education and, um, sharing of information that we try to do that, that helps with that. But I mean, yeah. >>Heather, Cindy, thank you so much for joining us regulations on, on the demo. A lot of hard work. >>Thank you. I just have to tell you, I feel as though a thousand pound weight has been lifted off my shoulders out, but it was extraordinarily fun to do actually. >>It was fun. Thank you for John Troyer. I'm Stu Miniman getting towards the end of our three days wall-to-wall coverage. They're running for the tee shirts that are left, but we've got a couple more interviews. Thank you for watching the queue.

>> from Seattle WASHINGTON. It's the Q covering AWS Imagine nonprofit brought to you by Amazon Web service is >> Hey, welcome back and ready Geoffrey here with the Cube. We're in downtown Seattle, actually, right on the water from the AWS. Imagine nonprofit event. We're here a couple weeks back for the education version of this event. First time to come into the non profit of it, and >> we're really excited to have our next guest. I knew a little bit about this organization before. Now we know a lot more. As he came off his keynote, he's brought Excuse me, Byron Hill, global head of >> technology for the Movember Foundation. By a great job on the keynote >> in the bay here to talk to you. >> And I think you came further than anybody did. Any other hands come up? I couldn't see the audience. 1000 miles, one >> I actually asked with from. So my whole stick around, you know, being from Australia 8140 miles to Seattle lost its appeal. If I'd said half Are you from 10,000 miles? >> Yes. Yes. We're glad we're glad you made it so that for the people that aren't >> familiar with them. Forgive him. Kind of a quick overview, Absolutely so in November >> is one of the world's largest men's health charities. We focus on three areas of men's health. Prostate cancer, mental health and testicular cancer. And every year we have annual fundraising campaign where we encourage men and women to fund. Rise for our cause is >> so Men's health is a really tricky situation. Let's met with GAL. She's like, Yeah, I'm going to do this. Start up. I'm gonna help. I'm gonna help all my male friends get to their doctor. Please. I was like, That's not the problem. The problem is, I never want to go in the first place. I don't want to talk about it. They want to acknowledge it. You know, they don't want to get their colonoscopy. They've heard horrible things about the prostate exam. So this is a really challenging thing to tackle. So how did you guys decide to go after it? How are you doing it a little bit differently so that you can have some success and he's not easy to operate areas. >> We realize that men's health was in a state of crisis. Men live on average sixties. Lesson. Women. And as you say, it's because way sit on the couch. We don't let things. We don't take action as opposed to women who always talk to themselves and should get out there and get something checked. So focusing on areas such as prostate cancer, where we know the family, history and ethnicity really important factors around these disease types and really targeting those populations and making sure we can have a big impact. We also spend a lot of time looking at survivorship. But how we can help people through that journey and understand what that journey looks like and help them actually have a really positive outcome At the end of it. My oh suicide is a huge area. Focus. One man every minute globally will die by suicide. And while that's not a uniquely mild disease, three out of four suicides a mile to really try to develop unique messaging, to talk to men in a very direct way is being one way we've I tried to get a cut through to really make a difference, right? >> So the mustache is in November in November, How did that come together? So you know, you've got these very serious diseases that we're trying to address a really big global problem. And you're coming at it with this kind of fun, kind of tongue in cheek thing. Movember. So for the folks that aren't familiar, what is movin, roll about? How did it come about? And really, what's the impact that actually, he has a huge impact with you outlined in the keynote? >> Absolutely So remember, started with two guys in a pub talking about fashion trends. They got onto the fact that the mustache had been the mainstay of seventies and eighties fashion and all but disappeared in the nineties. They just started to bring the mustache back as a gag. They got 30 mites, my yoga, robust ashes. They raise $0. They realized that papal complete strangers in the street. We're coming up to them asking about the mustache. What's that thing when you leave? And they realize the power of the mustache was something much more created conversations and allowed people to connect with one another to create an environment. We were able to talk about men's health. That's where we started. We never intended to become a men's health charity, but fast forward to 2009 and we've had over 6,000,000 people participating in a fundraising campaigns in the top 45 engineers globally and have funded over 1200 men's health programs. And again, all starting with two guys and pub. Having having a conversation about fashion trends >> you have, The numbers are amazing. I >> think you said S O start in 2004 and you guys were raising over $100,000,000 a year. How does it tie back to the mustache? Is just a conversation starter? No, by the way, this is why I'm doing it and please go go to the Web site. One of the mechanics. >> It's all about fun. Originally, the idea of the moustache was just fun. Just grow a mustache. Race and funds. That's it. We've really matured and progress in the last few years around really focusing in on the importance of men's health. So it started as a fun thing back in the day, and now we still try to maintain the fund. We also have a serious message to get through. So, quite literally, will ask people to grow a mustache last. Him too host and van will ask them to move. We've got a whole range of different fundraising ideas, and the idea is to absolutely get people raising funds in November. Getting as many people as we can to sign up and to grow moustache is and two doughnuts. So that's quite literally how we do it. And then we invest those funds back into women's health records. A >> great Well, I can assure you, after today we will be. The Q team will all be doing their best to get them. The mustache is there in a couple of months, but >> you had a >> lot of other really interesting messages within your within. You're talking about a culture of innovation, Mom. And everyone is always struggling. How do I and still a culture of innovation, especially in a large organization? You had a great quote. You're not the 1st 1 ever say it, but you said it with such passion, and clearly it's fall in love with the problem, not the solution to many people especially intact. Yeah, they want to talk about the attack. They don't want to talk about the problem. How do you know X ticket that? How do you instill that in your team. And how's that be really been a great driver for your success in development as a zone organization? >> Absolutely. So you're quite right. Paper will jump to the solution. And it's not just technical. People, like most people will come to you with a solution because I think they're actually helping. They think that they know exactly what the problem is to really just trying to position that to say, Well, let's get really clear and say Fall in love with problem Get really clear around the outcomes, withdrawn and deliver. Think about the experience is withdrawn. Give people here and then think about the technology. I talked about bringing the community into the conversation. Imagine the power you can have by bringing the community at the table when you're designing a new product. We try to do that all the time having a man in the room that suffered from prostate cancer. The insights they give you. We're very quickly highlight that you may have absolutely no idea of what the problem is. I talked a lot about assumptions. We form assumptions in her mind that crystallized. We have this bias and you have to challenge yourself to constantly go back to the coalface and look at those assumptions. Are they right? Are we solving completely the wrong problem Here you can deliver a great solution that completely misses a problem. So how do we do that? We encourage people to think about the problem. Immersed herself in the research. I talked about an example in testicular cancer. We spent three months on understanding the problem. Three months we spent four weeks on building a solution, and that was for a feeling that we didn't quite have the confidence that we knew what the problem. Waas. We wanted to know what itwas who wanted to delve into that research and really engage with people. Engage the community to get a deep seated understanding of what we were trying to solve. Right? >> Another PC talked about Is the community the importance of the community and really said the community is the why really powerful statement And I don't know people. Sometimes I think, think of community 10 gentle They're not really is the purpose for what? You know why you get up in the morning every day and why you do what you do. You have that come about. And how do you make sure that that stays, You know, clearly in focus for everyone. >> It's a really important point, and it's why we exist. And for us, it's a mobile rose and most sisters and the men that we serve. So how do we do it? We have to constantly anchor ourselves back to the point that there are means and means of men out there suffering from this desert diseases that we support. We want to create a better world for them so we can a line around the Y. If everyone in the organization understands why we're doing the work, it helps us deliver some amazing outcomes and again, the context of having people in the room, the community being part of the conversation that you're having gives that really sense of context. And it hasn't been easy. It's taken time to get there and you can't involve. I give an example of 20,000 people responded to a survey. You know, it doesn't have to be huge amounts of data. The voice of one or two people could be enough to provide unique insights. They give you a real sense of purpose and really give you a sense of what you're trying to change >> right? The third piece, he talked about the third leg of the stool, if you will. His culture. Onda geun driving, innovation of culture and your example you gave him the key note was phenomenal, which is when your team, you know, found a problem and asked you for approval on the $500 fixes. And you said, you know, empower your people to find the problem to solve the problems out Me and I think it's such a great message. And you spoken depth about learning about a screw up a failure and really identifying that as a terrific learning opportunity. You know, where did you learn about that kind of cultural approach? How do you keep that up? Because that is really the key to scale. And I think so many people are afraid to trust and afraid to have kind of blameless. Blameless postmortems is another phrase that we've heard so important to enabling your people to actually go out and accept. It's not easy, >> and how do we learn, Like all good things we did on the fly like if you're facing a situation where you've got a major piece of work that's kind of screwed up, and it doesn't do what you think it's gonna do. We had two choices. We could try to fix it, and I just knew we weren't gonna get there. It's a really using it as an opportunity toe positively reinforce what we should be doing that was learning. We had a really narrow opportunity to learn and learn in an in depth way. And how do we develop that culture we had to spend that time? It was really consciously thinking about when you got a team who are not feeling a lot of love there really worried. They actually concerned for their jobs, refocusing their their effort, giving them conference, telling them I've got your back and ultimately it helped us create this coach where people can proactively go out there and solve problems and my example of the business case or a showcase every single time we will go for the showcase, getting people to talk about how they're solving these problems, what is the problem and actually putting a proof of concept in or showing us that an example of what it looks like that's taken a long time to develop that culture, however, it's been absolutely worth it. >> Yeah, that's great. And you gave you gave the audience three challenges. At the end of the day, I was pretty interesting that weren't in there because they kind of encapsulated there kind of your key three themes that was, you know, really understand the problem you're trying to solve. I talked to people in the community. I like that. Don't presume you know what's going on. Talk to people. And then the last thing is encouraged. Three people to start working on the problem. Don't start working on it yourself. But again, you know you're going to have such a good grasp on engaging the team to the benefit of the whole great great messages >> over the year. Or didn't appreciate the homework I gave them to go. Go back to their desks on Monday morning and try these things. But I firmly believe that you know those three challenges and they're only small like this is not about trying to solve world hunger. This is just starting with something small in your business that you can look at. You can get two of your people 23 other people to focus on that validated the problem and look for ways around it. So it doesn't have to be a huge a group of people just getting a stock. And I've already talked to a number papal off to the canine who who really said that really resonated just starting that conversation. Small in that that I did a snowball and eventually growing as part of the organization. Right culture is something which takes a huge amount of time to get right, and I go in starting small one and letting that grow and permeate and do as much as you can do to reinforce that culture within your organization. Really living and breathing that cultures is important. But >> even those starting small your guys goals were huge. I mean, your goals are to cut to cut the prostate and the testicular percent, 50% and drop the suicides by 3/4. So, you know, it's a really interesting approach. Start small, you know, focus on the small, but but you clearly have a really big goal is my >> goal, and we know we can't achieve those goals by ourselves so way collaborate as much as we can with others who have similar missions and trying to band together. And we realized very early on that bringing together the best and brightest minds in the world to solve these problems was absolutely essential. We couldn't do it myself. So forming those network says global networks of experts researching constantly evaluating that research, making sure we're having to cut through and with nests in the process of scale in those programs that have shown great outcomes to reach the lives of means of men. So it's again starting small, proving these ideas out there looking to scour those ideas to reach frankly means in England. >> All right, Byron, we're almost out of time. We've got about 10 weeks until the month. Formally. No, it's November for >> me knowing this. So how do >> people get involved? What should people do? Give us give us some concrete tips for the audio? >> Absolutely, absolutely. So, first of all, you want to go to moveon dot com and you want to sign up, Sign up to be a mobile. Almost Easter, you can either grow a mustache. You can host in the van. You can move for Movember start donating, and it's like any people to die tonight. So grow a mustache and asking me to give you money. That's the 1st 1 to do it. Second tip is what sort of moustache gonna grow. There's so many styles. There's the >> little style guide on the course, But not everyone >> can go. We could, Tash, but, uh, we do have wards for the line, Mark. So some of those >> little lame of the Lane >> Mart I can always always recommend some augmentation of the mustache if you got a few gray hairs and maybe bush it out. A little bit of color lamentation. Something like that. Um, but above all else, it doesn't live. Use one message. It's about getting yourself checked. When things don't feel normal, go to the doctor, have that positive impact on your life. And, of course, Movember dot com is full of really useful tips and great content to help you on that journey. >> All right. Well, Byron, thanks to you very much. And again. Congrats on the keynote. Thank you. Seem really enjoyed the time. Excellent. Thank you. Alright, He's tired. I'm Jeff. You're watching The key were eight of us imagined nonprofit in Seattle, Washington. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time

>> From our studios, in the heart of Silicon Valley, Palo Alto, California, this is a CUBE Conversation. >> Welcome to this CUBE Conversation here in Palo Alto, California. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. We are here with Arpit Joshipura, GM of Networking, Edge, IoT for the Linux Foundation. Arpit, great to see you again, welcome back to theCUBE, thanks for joining us. >> Thank you, thank you. Happy to be here. >> So obviously, we love the Linux Foundation. We've been following all the events; we've chatted in the past about networking. Computer storage and networking just doesn't seem to go away with cloud and on-premise hybrid cloud, multicloud, but open-source software continues to surpass expectations, growth, geographies outside the United States and North America, just overall, just greatness in software. Everything's an abstraction layer now; you've got Kubernetes, Cloud Native- so many good things going on with software, so congratulations. >> Well thank you. No, I think we're excited too. >> So you guys got a big event coming up in China: OSS, Open Source Summit, plus KubeCon. >> Yep. >> A lot of exciting things, I want to talk about that in a second. But I want to get your take on a couple key things. Edge and IoT, deep learning and AI, and networking. I want to kind of drill down with you. Tell us what's the updates on the projects around Linux Foundation. >> Okay. >> The exciting ones. I mean, we know Cloud Native CNCF is going to take up more logos, more members, keeps growing. >> Yep. >> Cloud Native clearly has a lot of opportunity. But the classic in the set, certainly, networking and computer storage is still kicking butt. >> Yeah. So, let me start off by Edge. And the fundamental assumption here is that what happened in the cloud and core is going to move to the Edge. And it's going to be 50, 100, 200 times larger in terms of opportunity, applications, spending, et cetera. And so what LF did was we announced a very exciting project called Linux Foundation Edge, as an umbrella, earlier in January. And it was announced with over 60 founding members, right. It's the largest founding member announcement we've had in quite some time. And the reason for that is very simple- the project aims at unifying the fragmented edge in IoT markets. So today, edge is completely fragmented. If you talk to clouds, they have a view of edge. Azure, Amazon, Baidu, Tencent, you name it. If you talk to the enterprise, they have a view of what edge needs to be. If you talk to the telcos, they are bringing the telecom stack close to the edge. And then if you talk to the IoT vendors, they have a perception of edge. So each of them are solving the edge problems differently. What LF Edge is doing, is it is unifying a framework and set of frameworks, that allow you to create a common life cycle management framework for edge computing. >> Yeah. >> Now the best part of it is, it's built on five exciting technologies. So people ask, "You know, why now?" So, there are five technologies that are converging at the same time. 5G, low latency. NFV, network function virtualization, so on demand. AI, so predictive analytics for machine learning. Container and microservices app development, so you can really write apps really fast. And then, hardware development: TPU, GPU, NPU. Lots of exciting different size and shapes. All five converging; put it close to the apps, and you have a whole new market. >> This is, first of all, complicated in the sense of... cluttered, fragmented, shifting grounds, so it's an opportunity. >> It's an opportunity. >> So, I get that- fragmented, you've got the clouds, you've got the enterprises, and you've got the telcos all doing their own thing. >> Yep. >> So, multiple technologies exploding. 5G, Wi-Fi 6, a bunch of other things you laid out, >> Mhmm. >> all happening. But also, you have all those suppliers, right? >> Yes. >> And, so you have different manufacturers-- >> And different layers. >> So it's multiple dimensions to the complexity. >> Correct, correct. >> What are you guys seeing, in terms of, as a solution, what's motivating the founding members; when you say unifying, what specifically does that mean? >> What that means is, the entire ecosystem from those markets are coming together to solve common problems. And I always sort of joke around, but it's true- the common problems are really the plumbing, right? It's the common life cycle management, how do you start, stop, boot, load, log, you know, things like that. How do you abstract? Now in the Edge, you've 400, 500 interfaces that comes into an IoT or an edge device. You know, Zigbee, Bluetooth, you've got protocols like M2T; things that are legacy and new. Then you have connectivity to the clouds. Devices of various forms and shapes. So there's a lot of end by end problems, as we call it. So, the cloud players. So for LF Edge for example, Tencent and Baidu and the cloud leaders are coming together and saying, "Let's solve it once." The industrial IoT player, like Dynamic, OSIsoft, they're coming in saying, "Let's solve it once." The telcos- AT&T, NTT, they're saying "Let's solve it once. And let's solve this problem in open-source. Because we all don't need to do it, and we'll differentiate on top." And then of course, the classic system vendors that support these markets are all joining hands. >> Talk about the business pressure real quick. I know, you look at, say, Alibaba for instance, and the folks you mentioned, Tencent, in China. They're perfecting the edge. You've got videos at the edge; all kinds of edge devices; people. >> Correct. >> So there's business pressures, as well. >> The business pressure is very simple. The innovation has to speed up. The cost has to go down. And new apps are coming up, so extra revenue, right? So because of these five technologies I mentioned, you've got the top killer apps in edge are anything that is, kind of, video but not YouTube. So, anything that the video comes from 360 venues, or drones, things like that. Plus, anything that moves, but that's not a phone. So things like connected cars, vehicles. All of those are edge applications. So in LF Edge, we are defining edge as an application that requires 20 milliseconds or less latency. >> I can't wait for someone to define- software define- "edge". Or, it probably is defined. A great example- I interviewed an R&D engineer at VMware yesterday in San Francisco, it was at the RADIO event- and we were just riffing on 5G, and talking about software at the edge. And one of the advances >> Yes. >> that's coming is splicing the frequency so that you can put software in the radios at the antennas, >> Correct. Yeah. >> so you can essentially provision, in real time. >> Correct, and that's a telco use case, >> Yeah. >> so our projects at the LF Edge are EdgeX Foundry, Akraino, Edge Virtualization Engine, Open Glossary, Home Edge. There's five and growing. And all of these software projects can allow you to put edge blueprints. And blueprints are really reference solutions for smart cities, manufacturing, telcos, industrial gateways, et cetera et cetera. So, lots of-- >> It's kind of your fertile ground for entrepreneurship, too, if you think about it, >> Correct; startups are huge. >> because, just the radio software that splices the radio spectrum is going to potentially maybe enable a service provider market, and towers, right? >> Correct, correct. >> Own my own land, I can own the tower and rent it out, one radio. >> Yep. >> So, business model innovations also an opportunity, >> It's a huge-- >> not just the business pressure to have an edge, but-- >> Correct. So technology, business, and market pressures. All three are colliding. >> Yeah, perfect storm. >> So edge is very exciting for us, and we had some new announcements come out in May, and more exciting news to come out in June, as well. >> And so, going back to Linux Foundation. If I want to learn more. >> LFEdge.org. >> That's kind of the CNCF of edge, if you will, right? Kind of thing. >> Yeah. It's an umbrella with all the projects, and that's equivalent to the CNCF, right. >> Yeah. >> And of course it's a huge group. >> So it's kind of momentum. 64 founding members-- >> Huge momentum. Yeah, now we are at 70 founding members, and growing. >> And how long has it been around? >> The umbrella has been around for about five months; some of the projects have been around for a couple of years, as they incubate. >> Well let us know when the events start kicking in. We'll get theCUBE down there to cover it. >> Absolutely. >> Super exciting. Again, multiple dimensions of innovation. Alright, next topic, one of my favorites, is AI and deep learning. AI's great. If you don't have data you can't really make AI work; deep learning requires data. So this is a data conversation. What's going on in the Linux Foundation around AI and deep learning? >> Yeah. So we have a foundation called LF Deep Learning, as you know. It was launched last year, and since then we have significantly moved it forward by adding more members, and obviously the key here is adding more projects, right. So our goal in the LF Deep Learning Foundation is to bring the community of data scientists, researchers, entrepreneurs, academia, and users to collaborate. And create frameworks and platforms that don't require a PhD to use. >> So a lot of data ingestion, managing data, so not a lot of coding, >> Platforms. >> more data analyst, and/or applications? >> It's more, I would say, platforms for use, right? >> Yeah. >> So frameworks that you can actually use to get business outcomes. So projects include Acumos, which is a machine learning framework and a marketplace which allows you to, sort of, use a lot of use cases that can be commonly put. And this is across all verticals. But I'll give you a telecom example. For example, there is a use case, which is drones inspecting base stations-- >> Yeah. >> And doing analytics for maintenance. That can be fed into a marketplace, used by other operators worldwide. You don't have to repeat that. And you don't need to understand the details of machine learning algorithms. >> Yeah. >> So we are trying to do that. There are projects that have been contributed from Tencent, Baidu, Uber, et cetera. Angel, Elastic Deep Learning, Pyro. >> Yeah. >> It's a huge investment for us. >> And everybody wins when there's contribution, because data's one of those things where if there's available, it just gets smarter. >> Correct. And if you look at deep learning, and machine learning, right. I mean obviously there's the classic definition; I won't go into that. But from our perspective, we look at data and how you can share the data, and so from an LF perspective, we have something called a CDLA license. So, think of an Apache for data. How do you share data? Because it's a big issue. >> Big deal. >> And we have solved that problem. Then you can say, "Hey, there's all these machine learning algorithms," you know, TensorFlow, and others, right. How can you use it? And have plugins to this framework? Then there's the infrastructure. Where do you run these machine learning? Like if you run it on edge, you can run predictive maintenance before a machine breaks down. If you run it in the core, you can do a lot more, right? So we've done that level of integration. >> So you're treating data like code. You can bring data to the table-- >> And then-- >> Apply some licensing best practices like Apache. >> Yes, and then integrate it with the machine learning, deep learning models, and create platforms and frameworks. Whether it's for cloud services, for sharing across clouds, elastic searching-- >> And Amazon does that in terms of they vertically integrate SageMaker, for instance. >> That's exactly right. >> So it's a similar-- >> And this is the open-source version of it. >> Got it- oh, that's awesome. So, how does someone get involved here, obviously developers are going to love this, but-- >> LF Deep Learning is the place to go, under Linux Foundation, similar to LF Edge, and CNCF. >> So it's not just developers. It's also people who have data, who might want to expose it in. >> Data scientists, databases, algorithmists, machine learning, and obviously, a whole bunch of startups. >> A new kind of developer, data developer. >> Right. Exactly. And a lot of verticals, like the security vertical, telecom vertical, enterprise verticals, finance, et cetera. >> You know, I've always said- you and I talked about this before, and I always rant on theCUBE about this- I believe that there's going to be a data development environment where data is code, kind of like what DevOps did with-- >> It's the new currency, yeah. >> It's the new currency. >> Yeah. Alright, so final area I want to chat with you before we get into the OSS China thing: networking. >> Yeah. >> Near and dear to your heart. >> Near and dear to my-- >> Networking's hot now, because if you bring IoT, edge, AI, networking, you've got to move things around-- >> Move things around, (laughs) right, so-- >> And you still need networking. >> So we're in the second year of the LF Networking journey, and we are really excited at the progress that has happened. So, projects like ONAP, OpenDaylight, Tungsten Fabric, OPNFV, FDio, I mean these are now, I wouldn't say household names, but business enterprise names. And if you've seen, pretty much all the telecom providers- almost 70% of the subscribers covered, enabled by the service providers, are now participating. Vendors are completely behind it. So we are moving into a phase which is really the deployment phase. And we are starting to see, not just PoCs [Proofs of Concept], but real deployments happening, some of the major carriers now. Very excited, you know, Dublin, ONAP's Dublin release is coming up, OPNFV just released the Hunter release. Lots of exciting work in Fido, to sort of connect-- >> Yeah. >> multiple projects together. So, we're looking at it, the big news there is the launch of what's called OVP. It's a compliance and verification program that cuts down the deployment time of a VNF by half. >> You know, it's interesting, Stu and I always talk about this- Stu Miniman, CUBE cohost with me- about networking, you know, virtualization came out and it was like, "Oh networking is going to change." It's actually helped networking. >> It helped networking. >> Now you're seeing programmable networks come out, you see Cisco >> And it's helped. >> doing a lot of things, Juniper as well, and you've got containers in Kubernetes right around the corner, so again, this is not going to change the need, it's going to- It's not going to change >> It's just a-- >> the desire and need of networking, it's going to change what networking is. How do you describe that to people? Someone saying, "Yeah, but tell me what's going on in networking? Virtualization, we got through that wave, now I've got the container, Kubernetes, service mesh wave, how does networking change? >> Yeah, so it's a four step process, right? The first step, as you rightly said, virtualization, moved into VMs. Then came disaggregation, which was enabled by the technology SDN, as we all know. Then came orchestration, which was last year. And that was enabled by projects like ONAP and automation. So now, all of the networks are automated, fully running, self healing, feedback closed control, all that stuff. And networks have to be automated before 5G and IoT and all of these things hit, because you're no longer talking about phones. You're talking about things that get connected, right. So that's where we are today. And that journey continues for another two years, and beyond. But very heavy focused on deployment. And while that's happening, we're looking at the hybrid version of VMs and containers running in the network. How do you make that happen? How do you translate one from the other? So, you know, VNFs, CNFs, everything going at the same time in your network. >> You know what's exciting is with the software abstractions emerging, the hard problems are starting to emerge because as it gets more complicated, end by end problems, as you said, there's a lot of new costs and complexities, for instance, the big conversation at the Edge is, you don't want to move data around. >> No, no. >> So you want to move compute to the edge, >> You can, yeah-- >> But it's still a networking problem, you've still got edge, so edge, AI, deep learning, networking all tied together-- >> They're all tied together, right, and this is where Linux Foundation, by developing these projects, in umbrellas, but then allowing working groups to collaborate between these projects, is a very simple governance mechanism we use. So for example, we have edge working groups in Kubernetes that work with LF Edge. We have Hyperledger syncs that work for telecoms. So LFN and Hyperledger, right? Then we have automotive-grade Linux, that have connected cars working on the edge. Massive collaboration. But, that's how it is. >> Yeah, you connect the dots but you don't, kind of, force any kind of semantic, or syntax >> No. >> into what people can build. >> Each project is autonomous, >> Yeah. >> and independent, but related. >> Yeah, it's smart. You guys have a good view, I'm a big fan of what you guys are doing. Okay, let's talk about the Open Source Summit and KubeCon, happening in China, the week of the 24th of June. >> Correct. >> What's going on, there's a lot of stuff going on beyond Cloud Native and Linux, what are some of the hot areas in China that you guys are going to be talking about? I know you're going over. >> Yeah, so, we're really excited to be there, and this is, again, life beyond Linux and Cloud Native; there's a whole dimension of projects there. Everything from the edge, and the excitement of Iot, cloud edge. We have keynotes from Tencent, and VMware, and all the Chinese- China Mobile and others, that are all focusing on the explosive growth of open-source in China, right. >> Yeah, and they have a lot of use cases; they've been very aggressive on mobility, Netdata, >> Very aggressive on mobility, data, right, and they have been a big contributor to open-source. >> Yeah. >> So all of that is going to happen there. A lot of tracks on AI and deep learning, as a lot more algorithms come out of the Tencents and the Baidus and the Alibabas of the world. So we have tracks there. We have huge tracks on networking, because 5G and implementation of ONAP and network automation is all part of the umbrella. So we're looking at a cross-section of projects in Open Source Summit and KubeCon, all integrated in Shanghai. >> And a lot of use cases are developing, certainly on the edge, in China. >> Correct. >> A lot of cross pollination-- >> Cross pollination. >> A lot of fragmentation has been addressed in China, so they've kind of solved some of those problems. >> Yeah, and I think the good news is, as a global community, which is open-source, whether it's Europe, Asia, China, India, Japan, the developers are coming together very nicely, through a common governance which crosses boundaries. >> Yeah. >> And building on use cases that are relevant to their community. >> And what's great about what you guys have done with Linux Foundation is that you're not taking positions on geographies, because let the clouds do that, because clouds have-- >> Clouds have geographies, >> Clouds, yeah they have agents-- >> Edge may have geography, they have regions. >> But software's software. (laughs) >> Software's software, yeah. (laughs) >> Arpit, thanks for coming in. Great insight, loved talking about networking, the deep learning- congratulations- and obviously the IoT Edge is hot, and-- >> Thank you very much, excited to be here. >> Have a good trip to China. Thanks for coming in. >> Thank you, thank you. >> I'm John Furrier here for CUBE Conversation with the Linux Foundation; big event in China, Open Source Summit, and KubeCon in Shanghai, week of June 24th. It's a CUBE Conversation, thanks for watching.

(jazzy music) >> From our studios in the heart of Silicone Valley Palo Alto, California. This is a CUBE Conversation. >> Hello everyone, welcome to this special CUBE Conversation. I'm John Furrier with my cohost Abby Kearns, the Executive Director of The Cloud Foundry Foundation, my cohost. With Blair Hanley Frank, Principal Analyst at ISG Insights. Blair, great to see you, former journalist at Venturebeat. >> Great to see you again. >> Great to have you on theCUBE finally. Yes, likewise. It's good to be here. >> Thanks for coming on. So, I'd love to start to find out what you're working on. You've been covering the tech sector as a journalist now, as an analyst. You've always done good work, I always admired what you've done. I'm sure you're digging into some really good stuff. What are you researching? What are some of the things you're finding around cloud? What the, what's the data tell us? >> Yeah, awesome. So we have a forthcoming cloud study where we talked to 300 enterprise IT decision makers and we asked them what they're doing today what they're looking to do in the future and how they're doing it. And we're taking all of that information and we're putting that together with the information that we have from ISG's advisor and practitioner community. And building an understanding of where the market is and where it should be. And that's what we have going on today. One of the things that we think is really important, is when we look and the data and we look what's going on in the market, what we find really important is that enterprises today are starting to move to the cloud. They have some workloads in SaaS. They have some workloads in a public cloud, IaaS or PaaS. And then they have a lot of stuff that's still on premises. And that exists in a wide variety of workloads. Whether that's on bare metal, whether that's virtualized whether that's some sort of cloud native or containerized application that's still running on prem all the way up until the cloud and what we see is that those different modes of operation are actually going to continue to exist throughout the enterprise. Even as we see more workloads shift into the public cloud. Enterprises aren't realistically going to be able to retire all of their on premises investments for the foreseeable future. >> Nor should they. >> Right And so what they-- >> Amazon confirmed that with Outposts. You saw Azure Stack, I mean that's total. I mean, first the VMware deal, the RDS on premises, and then you've got the Outpost which still hasn't, we haven't heard anything about that. That's validation, Amazon essentially saying, "I'm going to put cloud on premise." >> Yeah. >> Cloud Operations. So certainly that's validated. The question I want to ask you and Abby, get your thoughts too if you want to chime in over the top. But I've always been critical of the cloud market share game, right? Like, I've always been vocal on theCUBE. Because it's always been infrastructure service, platform service and then SAS is the application. Now Amazon has some SAS but most of their SAS is their customers. Google's got G Suite, they've got their own SAS. Microsoft's got Office 365. So when you start bundling SAS revenues into cloud market share and revenue projections. You start to see, you know, sandbagging of the numbers. I mean you can talk to sales forces today in a work day, they have clouds. So what's a cloud? What is cloud technologies? And, you know, Azure as that develops all the sudden has this massive market share. And it didn't really exist a few years ago. Where'd that come from? Is that just a shift of some sandbagging on the revenue side? Or is that actually real cloud? Or is it, so this is the game that the customer has to squint through. Now we in the industry know that okay, a little bit of Office 365. Okay, is that really cloud? >> Yeah, I mean, when you think about financials with cloud vendors. Everybody is playing a slightly different shell game. And generally speaking, you're not really going to get real numbers from anybody. Except possibly Amazon. And the reason why Amazon is able to do that is because the financial results for AWS look great. But everybody else is going to be masking. >> But they don't have a lot of SaaS though. The think about there, their SaaS number is their customer base. So I mean-- >> Yeah, but I would argue cloud is nothing but infrastructure with a SaaS on top of it. I mean, we talk about cloud as if there's some magic kind of thing happening over here. But it's basically a different kind of data center with a different kind of SaaS on top of it. And I think if I'm, if it's me reporting my numbers out. Well, I'm going to make them look as good as I possibly can. >> CUBE Cloud is coming out with great numbers. (laughing) >> I mean, look. You're going to make it look as great as you can. I mean, infrastructure is infrastructure is infrastructure. But now like, when you talk about SAS on top of that. Well, what's cloud? What's not? And it's super, it's a very fungible definition. >> Alright, I'm not disagreeing on that point. I see how that makes sense. The question for people who are making quote, "decisions" on the buyers side. They tend to think of things like "cloud supplier"? Is that really a word? Like what does that mean? So if you're going to say cloud's part of a workload is that actually even relevant. A "cloud supplier", I mean, I guess they're supplying cloud to you. But, so when you start to get into the vendors versus the buyers and the consuming of the technology. We get in that old school game of trying to put things into like market share, revenue. I mean, I see Amazon just kicking ass ten ways from Sunday. And I think Azure's certainly doing some good things there. Google, we're going to see what's going on with Google. They've got great direction. But, it's like apples, oranges and pears. Right, like are they all the same or different? And then throw Salesforce in there. This is where it muddies the water. >> And Alibaba. >> Alibaba! So, I mean, so it's hard to like figure this out. So I'd love to get your thoughts on how you guys see that in the studies. Are customers confused? Do they have some visibility into what they want to do? What's out there in the data on this point. >> So, what I will say directionally speaking, SaaS is where the market is going. So when we asked our survey respondents for where are there applications today and where did they want to go? 90% of those people we surveyed, 90% of the 300 people we surveyed around the world said in 2019 we are primarily in a hybrid mode. Where our applications are on premises and in a public cloud. 5% of them said, the majority of our applications are in SaaS. Now when you look at 2021, 37% say that they expect to be in a hybrid mode. 61% expect that they are going to be majority SaaS for their workloads, in two years. >> So they're in build up mode, they're in shifting mode. >> They're shifting, and they're not just, they're planning to shift to SaaS. They're planning to, they want to get out of the business of running applications. And put some of that burden onto providers to say, "Okay, it's your job to run the application. We'll provide the data. We'll build our business processes but we don't want our job to be running those apps." And what we see is that when you look at total cost of ownership, our respondents found SaaS to be far more predictable in terms of TCO than IaaS and PaaS. And again, for those people who are are really paying attention. If you think about it, that doesn't. Like, that's not a surprise. But on the other hand, that's like, I think that's part of where the driver comes from. Is that when you're consuming a SaaS product, it's very understandable. It's very consumable. When you think about running application in an Iaas, PaaS environment. Maybe not so much. It's going to be, you're more in charge of that application. So-- >> And SaaS has got immediate gratification. >> Exactly. >> I mean, you see the benefits. >> Easy to consume. >> Is there revenue there, is it doing its objective? Why is the IAZ fuzzy? Just because it's a classic back office kind of mindset? Or is it more of maturity? It seems mature to me, I mean, I don't I think IAZ has been more mature than ever before right now. Now we kind of-- >> I think its been around awhile, I mean I'd love to hear your answer. I think it's, there's just, I feel it's a relic of the past. Whereas, it's not something we spend much time thinking about. Like, there's that old joke. You know, "Great job keeping the servers up" said no CEO ever. Right? (laughing) >> That's a good point. But now apart from the servers you've got SageMaker, you've seen what Amazon's moving with the Stack with SageMaker. Machine learning, all of this kind of SASification kind of platform creeping up to the top of the stack. It seems to be what everyone talks about. I'm sure Google next will hear all about AI and how Iot Edge or some focus around that piece. So, again I agree. It's the commoditization is just another distraction layer on top of it. >> Yeah. >> Sure. >> We've seen that movie before. >> We're moving up the stack, we're just moving up the stack at a faster pace than we have in the last two decades. >> So bottom line, Blair. What's the survey, what's the net net telling us? What's coming out of it? >> So the net net here is really that enterprises need to have a strategy and an operating model in place for the long haul. When they think about their cloud strategy overall, this is something where they're not going to be able to snap their fingers and get to cloud-native nirvana overnight. Because that requires technical change, it requires culture change, it requires process change. There's a lot of very heavy lifting that takes place and not all of the applications that exist in an enterprise today really need that heavy lift. And so when you think about what the future holds for enterprises. They really need to build a model for how they are going to make that transition as smooth as possible. Take advantage of the new capabilities that are entering the market as quickly as possible to help advance their business. While at the same time having the opportunity to work across all of those different modes of operation and do so with high reliability, high customer satisfaction, high performance. All of the things that you need to succeed as a business in 2019. >> So I totally agree. This is a heavy lift to go kill the old and bring in the new. And one of the things that I've seen as a trend, and I'd love to get your guys' thoughts on this, as a reaction. Because I've seen the Kubernetes trend really let a lot of air out of that tension. Because it allows people to get in with containers to get in around some workloads and bring kind of baby steps into transitioning stuff. And I've seen people saying, "You know what. I like the idea of going cloud but I got this app that I really don't want to shut it down and have to rebuild it. But I could put some containers around things, run it on some Vms, use Kubernetes to orchestrate it." So I think this has been, I'm not sure if it's actually been deployed in massive production. But I've heard people say that. Is that hype or is that reality? Is it becoming a crutch, is it a short term transitional? >> I got to drag out my soap box for this 'cause I have a soap box for this. >> Okay, let's go. >> I'm not a big believer in lift and shift. I think there are times where it may be opportunistic. When you're like end of life-ing hardware or something like that. But I'm not a big believer that a cloud is a goal. Because cloud should not be your goal. If I'm a business, my goal should not be cloud. My goal should be, how do I write more applications more quickly? And maybe, how do I use infrastructure in better and more efficient ways? But cloud is not my goal. If that's my goal, then I'm going to be really sad at the end of the day. Because that hasn't made my business better. So I think, I feel like we've all over rotated-- >> You're saying it's not the outcome. The outcome is the app that benefits from doing that. >> The outcome, if you're a bank and you tell me your goal is to be on the cloud. Well, then I'm like, you've got the wrong goal. Your goal should be, how am I writing more applications and getting them out into the hands of my customer and changing my business faster? If the cloud gets me to that, great! But that may not be the answer for all of your workloads and you need to really think about that before you say "my goal is cloud". My goal is to write more applications faster. Period. And if that's on the cloud or if that's on prim or if that's on bare metal, what have you. But I need to really think about what my outcome is. And I feel like we've really focused on the cloud as the solution and that's not the solution. And if you're check boxing, you know, I'm done for the year because I moved a bunch of stuff to the cloud. Well you're, the works not done. The work is the culture part and the team part and really figuring out the applications I need to create And how do I iterate on those applications? The cloud is just, it's a bi product of that. >> It should be enabling the outcome they want. >> Right. >> That's a great soap box. Your thoughts on the overall lift and shift soap box rant by my cohost Abby here? >> Yeah, I think that the, the big opportunity is to do what's right for the business. That's ultimately what should be driving any sort of transformation. I had a conversation with a start up once. They were very focused on taking their monolithic application and going to microservices. And they were like, "we're going to go to microservices. That's what we want to do because that's the future. That's what a modern application looks like." And they started decomposing their application what I would call radically decomposing their application. Getting down to the atomic, you know, moment of how small can we make every single piece of this application. What they figured out was that it was a massive headache. And so they actually then, took it and sort of re-composed the application into not microservices but what they called mega-services. Where they-- >> And then they ended up writing a book and being famous and doing a speaking tour. But they didn't achieve the objective. >> And so, and that's exactly it. That they all of the sudden created this host of technical problems by pursuing an ideal that wasn't-- >> And this is the danger, the dogma. Danger of having the dogma of a certain trend. I remember during the big data days when we were covering the Duke movement around 2010, 2011, 2012. I would hear this all the time in side cloud era. "Man, I just set up an 18 note cluster. I'm so pumped!" Well, what are you doing with it? "Well, I just collect data." I'm like well, I get it, I get. And then what happened was, that was their end game. We see a lot of that with clouds, your point where, it's not about, it's what you're using it for. And then they had to make up the term data lake after that. So again, they just kept adding on more but they actually missed the entire boat because it was about making data addressable for apps. >> It used to make things useful. >> So this is the danger of the tech world. >> And making it useful. Yeah, I feel like we follow the shiny penny. As opposed to saying, "Actually is that actually even relevant for me?" You know, when Docker came out in 2014 and every conversation started with, that was the answer for everything. Whatever you wanted. Do you want toast for lunch? Docker? And I feel like that was the answer for everything. And I feel like, why? Like, one, why do you care about a container? And two, like why? >> Containers were pretty cool though. >> Sure, they're cool. But containers have been around since 1969. >> Summer of love. The containers, ya know? >> It was, but I feel like, ya know everyone's like "that's my answer" and you're like "Well, what's the question you're asking?" And I feel like we continue, we went from Docker to the next thing and the next thing and the next thing. And I feel like we're not pausing to say "actually what are we hoping to gain?" You're point. >> So Kubernetes, what do you think is Kubernetes a shiny penny or shiny new toy? Or does that have any relevance in your mind in your soap box? Where does Kubernetes fit into your, your view. >> I mean I think Kubernetes is an amazing technology that has done a lot for the way think about scheduling and container orchestration. But it is also become victim of the shiny penny and that everyone is like "Kubernetes!" And you know, two years ago everyone is like "Kubernetes!" It's like how many people were using it two years ago? Not that many. And so I think about it in this like, and I often ask, "Why do you care so much about a container orchestrator?" >> FTO sold almost 650 million or whatever the number. >> 515, I know the Vmware. >> Is it 515 was the number? >> 515. >> That's half a billion dollars. That's Kubernetes' ca ching. >> I lived my two years, my last two years wrong. That's what I did. (laughing) But that's a different story about all of my mistakes. >> You could have been the Kubernetes foundation. >> But I think-- >> CNCF is doing pretty well, I mean, that community is rallying. It feels like an Amazon alternative. They feel cloud, it's very cloud native. So I think Kubernetes has been a good rallying cry, for sure. >> It is but I think you're also, you know, what you see even in CNCF which has so many amazing technologies. I do not want to take away from that but you also see the shiny penny effect happening within that community. You know, when I went to CUBECON in December you know, what was the hot topic? It wasn't Kubernetes it was Istio. You heard Istio everywhere. And I've never seen this many people so excited about service mesh in my life. I'm like "Great! This is awesome!" >> We love it on theCUBE, it's great content. Service mesh is great. Who wouldn't want policy staple applications? Come on! >> Well, ultimately the like-- >> Hold on. (inhaling) >> Exactly >> Have some of that staple, I'm saying. Fantasyland. >> I'm excited about it. >> No, stakes hard. >> Well, and this is what I end up telling clients is you want to adopt the parts of the stack that are necessary for you to solve the problems that you have. Right? If you are in the position where you need a service mesh, you know because you are having problems that only a service mesh can solve. And if you aren't in that position then you get to be like the 60% of respondents in our survey who said that they are currently experimenting with a service mesh. Or, the 33% who say that they plan to use it in the future. >> 60% are experimenting with it? >> Yeah, well, probably-- >> That numbers way high. >> Well, it's probably somebody has it running on some VM somewhere. >> It seems really high. >> Well if you look at the success at CUBECON one of the things that, Envoy is a great example, and you talk about some of the challenges-- >> Envoys great. >> The challenges that enterprises have. If you look at the success of all the open source projects, the ones that have been super successful. It's the folks that had to build it for themselves. Envoy had a lift. And I think this is a challenge that I see. I haven't really figured it out in the enterprise yet, how that's going to play out. It generally seems to be that the enterprises don't necessarily want to be like them. But they want the same kind of control. "I want to roll out my own cloud." But they don't want to have an open stack problem. Meaning, they don't want to have something that's not supported. So you have this kind of new changeover vibe going. I really haven't put my finger on it but it's, it has that same vibe. >> Well, enterprises are more in control. And what we've seen in our research is that enterprises actually feel comfortable now. They no longer feel like they're in the fog of war like "I don't know what's goin on!" They're more like "Oh, we actually understand and we're on it." And they're being more thoughtful about the technologies that they use. And they are experimenting more. And they're feeling really confident. But you know, my caution is always, use the technology when it makes sense, as it makes sense. But at the end of the day as a business owner, your fundamental question is, does this serve my outcomes? Does this serve my business outcomes? And if the answer is, I don't know. Then really think about what you're investing in in terms of technology. I mean, I love all of these technologies. But I'm never going to recommend all of them if that's not actually going to be in your best interest. >> That's great stuff. Well, thanks for coming on Blair. Appreciate it. You going to be at Google next? Cloud Foundry in Philly? In April, first week of April? >> Unfortunately, I won't make it to the Cloud Foundry Summit. >> Google Next, next month? >> Sure will. >> Alright, We'll see you there. >> Abby, thanks for co hosting this segment with me. >> Any time, John. >> Sharing the data here with my cohost Abby and John here. Co hosting the first ever CUBE, What we'd call it? Cloud? >> Cloud CUBE. >> Cloud CUBE. >> Rebrand. >> TheCUBE, thanks for watching. (jazzy music)

(funky music) >> From our studios in the heart of Silicon Valley, Palo Alto, California. This is a CUBEConversation. >> Everyone, welcome to this CUBEConversation here in Palo Alto, California. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. Here in theCUBE Studios here with Abby Kearns, Executive Director, Cloud Foundry Foundation, CUBE alumni. Great to see you again. I think this is your eighth time on theCUBE chatting. Always great to get the update. Thanks for spending the time. >> My pleasure, and it's a joy to drive down to your actual studios. >> (laughs) This is where all happens Wednesdays and Thursdays when we're not on the road doing CUBE events. I think we'll have over 120 events this year. We'll certainly see you at a bulk of them. Cloud Foundry, give us the update. Yeah, we took 'em joking before we came on camera. Boy this cloud thing is kind of working out. I mean, I think IBM CEO calls it chapter two. I'm like, we're still in chapter one, two, three? Give us the update Cloud Foundry, obviously open-source. Things are rocking. Give us the update. >> I do feel like we're moving into chapter two. Chapter one was a really long chapter. (laughs) It spanned about 10 years. But I do think we're starting to see actual growth and actual usage. And I think a lot of people are like, no, there's actually been usage for a while. Me, no no no not on a real scale. And we haven't seen any of the workloads for organizations running at massive scale. At the scale that we know that they can run at. But we're starting to see interesting scale. Like 40, 50 thousand applications, you know. Billions of transactions now passing through. A lot of cloud native technology. So we're starting to see real interesting volume. And so that's going to actually dictate how the next five years unfold because scale is going to dictate how the technologies unfold, how they're used. And they're going to feed into this virtuous cycle of how the technologies unfold, and how they're going to be used, which feedback into how enterprises are using them, and you know, and the cycle continues. >> Give us the update on the foundation. What's going on with the foundation, status, momentum, clouds out there. Obviously open-source continues to drive however we saw a lot of acquisitions and fundings around people who are using open-source to build a business around that. >> I love that. >> Your favorite conversation. But, I mean you know the technical challenges with open-source allow for technical challenges but also the people side is they're learning. What's the update with the foundation? >> Well open-source is really tricky, and I think there is a lot of people that are really enthusiastic as it is a because model. I mean last year 2018 was a pretty substantial year for open-source. The year ended with Red Hat's acquisition by IBM. One of their biggest acquisitions, $34 billion. But we saw in December alone, we also saw Heptio get picked up by VMware which is a services company which is really based on Kubernetes on an open-source technology. But we also saw HashiCorp get another round of funding. And then earlier in the year, Pivotal IPO'd. And so if you look at 2018 at a bigger level, you saw a lot of momentum around open-source and how it's actually being commercialized. Now you and I were talking a little bit prior and I'm a big believer that open-source has the potential and is going to change fundamentally how technology is used and consumed. But at the end of the day for the commercial aspects of it you still have to have a business around that. And I think there's always going to be that fine line. And that line is actually always be going to be moving because how you provide value in, around, and on top of open-source, has to evolve with both the market and your customer needs. >> Yeah and where you are on that wave, whatever wave that is, is it an early wave or is it more mature so the metrization certainly matters? >> Sure. >> You could be early on setting the table or if it's growing when there's some complexity. So it kind of depends, it's always that depends is it the cloud air or is it the Red Hat? There's different approaches and people kind of get confused on that and your answer to that is just pick one that works for, that's a good business model. Don't get hung up on kind of the playbook if you will, is that kind of what you're saying? >> Well I think we're seeing this play out this week with AWS's Elastic announcement, right? And there's been a lot of conversation around how do we think about open-source. Who has access to it? Who has the right to commercialize it? What does commercialization look like? And I think, I've always cautioned people that are proceeding down the path to open-source is really be thoughtful about why you're doing open-source. Like what is your, what are you hoping to achieve? There's a lot of potential that comes with open sourcing your technology. You gain ecosystem, community, momentum. There's a lot of positives that come with that but there's also a lot of work that comes with that too. Managing your community. Managing a much more varied share of stakeholders and people that are going to have thoughts and opinions around how that technology unfolds. And then of course it's because it's open-sources there's more opportunity for people to use that and build their own ideas and their own solutions on top of that. And potentially their own commercial products. And so really figuring out that fine line and what works best for your business. What works best for the technology. And then what your hopes are at the end of the day with that. >> And what are some of the momentums or points for the Foundation, with Cloud Foundry, obviously seeing Pivotal went public, you mentioned that VMWare, I talk to Michael Dell all the time, the numbers are great coming from that operation. Pat Kelson near the Amazon deal think that clear and where VMWare was. But still you have a lot more cloud, multi-cloud conversations happening than ever before. >> Well, for sure I mean at Cloud Foundry, we've actually been talking about multicloud since 2016. We saw that trend coming based on user behavior. And now you've seen everyone is multicloud, even the public clouds are multicloud. >> I think you had the first study out on that, too on multicloud. We did. We were we were firm believers in multicloud. Last year we've actually moved more broadly to multi-platform. Because at the end of the day there isn't one technology that solves all of these problems. Multicloud is you know is pervasive and at the end of the day multicloud means a lot of different things to a lot of people. But for many enterprises what it gives is optionality. You don't want to be locked into a single provider. You don't want to be locked into a single cloud or single solution because you know if I'm an enterprise, I don't know where I'm going to be in five years. Do I want to make a five year or a 10 year or a 20 year commitment to a single infrastructure provider when I don't know what my needs are going to be. So having that optionality and also being able to use the best of what clouds can provide, the best services, the best outcomes. And so for me, I want to have that optionality. So I'm going to look at technologies that give me that portability and then I'm going to use that to allow me to choose the best cloud that I need for right now for my business and maybe again a different one in the future. >> I want to get your thoughts on this. I just doubled down on this conversation because I think there's two things going on that I'm saying we'll get your reaction to. One is I've heard things like pick the right cloud for the right workload and I heard analogies. Hey, if you got an airplane you need to have two engines. You have one engine if it works for that plane, but your whole fleet of planes could be other clouds. So, pick the right cloud for the right workload. Meaning workload is defined spec. >> Yeah. >> I've also heard that the people side of the equation, where people are behaving like they are comfortable with API's tooling is potentially a lock-in, kind of by default. Not a technical lock-in, but people are comfortable with the API's and the tooling. >> Yeah. >> And the workloads need a certain cloud. Then maybe that cloud would be it. That's not saying pick that cloud for the entire company. Right, so certainly that the trend seems to be coming from a lot of people in the news saying hey, this whole sole-cloud, multi-cloud thing argument really isn't about one cloud vs. multiple clouds. It's workload cloud for the use case in the tooling, if it fits and the people are there to do it. Then you can still have other clouds and that's in the multi-cloud architecture. So is that real? What's your thoughts on that? >> Let's dissect that 'cause I think that's actually solving for two different outcomes. Like one multi-cloud for optionality's purpose and workload specific. I think it's a great one. There's a lot of services that are native to certain clouds that maybe you really would like to get greater access to. And so I think you're going to choose the best. You know that's going to drive your workload. Now also factoring in that you know you're going to have a much more mediated access to cloud based on what people are comfortable with. I do think it's at some point as an organization you want to have a better control over that. You know historically over the last decade what we've seen. Shadow IT really dictates your Cloud spend right. You know everyone's got a credit card. I got I've got access to AWS. >> And they got most of that business. Amazon did. >> Yes and that served them quite well. If I am an organization that's trying to digitally transform, I'm also trying to get a better handle on what we're spending, how we're spending it and frankly, now if I have compliance requirements, where's my data? These are going to be important questions for you when you're starting to run production workloads at scale on multiple clouds and so, I predict we're going to see a lot more tension there in internal organizations. Like, hey I'd love for you to use cloud, you know? Where this no longer needs to be a shadow thing, but let's figure out a way to do it that's strategically and intentional versus just random pockets. Choosing to do cloud because of the workflow that they like. >> Well you bring up a good point. The cost thing was never a problem, but then you have sprawl and you realize there's a cost to Optimizer component which means you might be overpaying because as you think about the system aspects, you got networking and you got Cloud management factors. So you start as you get into that Shadow IT expansion. You got to realize, wait a minute, I'm still spending a lot of cash here. >> This adds up really really quickly. I mean, I think the information piece a couple weeks ago where they talked about the Pinterest bill, this stuff, it starts adding up. And for organizations, this is like not just thousands of dollars. It's now hundreds of thousands of dollars. If not you know, tens of millions of dollars. And so, if I'm trying to figure out ways to optimize my business and my scale, I'm going to look at that because that is not an insignificant amount of money. And so if I'm in it, that's money that could be better invested in more developers, better outcomes, a better alignment with my business, then that's where I want to spend my time and money, and so, I'm going to spend more time being really thoughtful about what clouds we're using, what infrastructure we're using, and the tools we're using to allow us to have that optionality. >> So you would agree with the statement if I said, generally, multi-cloud is here, it already exists. >> Yes. >> And that multi-cloud architecture thinking is really the conversation that needs to be had. Not so much cloud selection, per say. It's not a mutually exclusive situation. Meaning, I'm not all in on Amazon. I'm going to have clouds plural? >> Well, yeah you are. Like we have already seen as of early last year over half of our users. Which right now over half the Fortune 500 are multi-cloud already, and that number has gone up since last year I'm for sure. Some workloads were on-prem and some are in a public cloud. Be it GCP, AWS, Azure, or AliCloud. And so that is a statement of fact. And I have every executive that I've talked to with every enterprise has been like, yes, we're doing multi-cloud. >> Yeah, they're going to have some kind of on-prem anyway, So we know that's there. That's not going to go away. >> No, PRIM is not going to go away. >> Then an IOT edge, and an Enterprise Edge, SDWAN comes back into vogue as people start using SAS across network connections. >> Yeah. >> I mean, SDWAN is essentially the internet basically. >> I feel like the older I get the more I'm like, wow, didn't I have this conversation like, 20 years ago? (laughs) >> I was talking about something earlier when I came in. The old becomes the new again. It's what's happening, right? Distributor computing now goes to cloud, you got the Enterprise. What are the big players doing? Google Next is coming up next month, big event. >> It is the week after Cloud Foundry Summit. >> They got Amit Zavery, big news over there they poached from Oracle. So Thomas Kurian brought in his Oracle, who is Cube alumni as well. Really smart guy. Diane is not there. What do you expect from Google Next for the week? What are we going to see there? What's the sentiment? What's the vibe? What do you see happening? >> Well, I think it's going to be all about the Enterprise right. That's why Thomas was brought in. And then I think they really give Google that Enterprise focus and say, how do we end up? As it's not just about I'm going to sell to enterprises. That's not, you know, when you're selling to an enterprise there is a whole different approach and you have to write how to the teams, the sales teams. You have to write how to the ecosystem, the services, the enablement capabilities, the support, the training, the product strategy? All of that takes a very different slant when you're thinking about an enterprise. And so I'm sure, that's going to be front-and-center for everything that they talk about. >> And certainly he's very public about, you know, the position Oracle Cloud, he knows the Enterprise Oracle was the master of enterprise gamesmanship for sure. >> Yes, for sure. You don't get a whole lot more enterprising than Oracle. >> What's going on in the CNCF any news there? What's happening on the landscape? What's the Abby take on the landscape of cloud? >> Well, speaking as someone that does not run CNCF. >> Feel free to elaborate. >> Cloud Native Computing Foundation, for those of you that aren't aren't, you know, aren't familiar is a sister open-source organization that is a clearing house or collective of cloud made of technologies. The anchor project is the very well-known Kubernetes, but it also spans a variety of technologies from everything from LINKerD to SEDA to Envoy, so it's just a variety of cloud-native technologies. And you know they're continuing to grow because obviously cloud-native is becoming you know it's coming into its own time right now. Because we're starting to really think about how to do better with workloads. Particularly workloads that I can run across a cloud. I mean and that seems pretty pedantic but we've been talking about Cloud since 2007. And we were talking about what cloud brings. What did cloud bring, it brings resiliency. You can auto-scale. You can burst into the cloud, remember bursting? Now all the things we talked about in 2007 to 2008 but weren't really reality because the applications that were written weren't necessarily written to do that. >> And that's exactly the point. >> So now we're actually seeing a lot more of these applications written we call them microservices, 12 Factor apps, serverless apps. What have you but it's applications written to run and scale across the cloud. And that is a really defining point because now these technologies are actually relevant because we're starting to see more of these created and run and now run at scale. >> Yeah, I think that's the point. I think you nailed it. The applications are driving everything And I think that's the chapter two narrative. In my opinion, chapter one was, let's get infrastructures code going. And chapter two is apps dictating policy and then you're going to see microservices start to emerge. Kind of new different vibe in terms of like what it means for scale as less of about, hey, I'm doing cloud, I got some stuff in the public cloud. Here the conversation is around apps, the workloads and that's where the business value is. It's not like people who is trying to do transformation. They're not saying hey I stood up a Kubernetes Cluster. They're saying I got to deploy my banking app or I got to do, I got to drive this workload. >> And I have to iterate now. I can't do a banking app and then update it in a year. That's not acceptable anymore. You are constantly having to update. You're constantly having to iterate, and that is not something you can do with a large application. I mean the whole reason we talk a lot about monolithic vs 12 factor or cloud in a box is because it isn't that my monolithics are inherently bad, it's just they're big and they're complex. Which means in order to make any updates it takes time. That's where the year comes in, the 18-months come in. And I think that is no longer acceptable you know. I remember the time and I'm going to date myself here, but I remember the time when you know banks would or any e-commerce site would be down. They'd have what they call the orange page. But the orange page would come up, site down tonight 'cause we're doing maintenance for the weekend, right? >> Under construction. >> Under construction. Okay, well I'll just come back on Monday. That's fine. And now, you're like, if it's down for 5 minutes you're like what is actually happening right now. Why is this not here. >> Yeah like when Facebook went down the other day. I was like, what the hell? Facebook sucks. >> You know, the internet blows up if Instagram is down. Oh my God, my life is over and I think our our expectation now is not only constant availability. So you know always available. But also our expectation is real-time access to data transparency and a visibility into what's actually happening at all times. That I've said something that a lot of organizations are really having to figure out. How to develop the applications to expose that. And that takes time and that takes change. And there's a ton of culture change. it has to happen and that is the more important thing if I'm a business I care more about how do I make that a reality and I should care a lot less about the technologies that you use. >> It's interesting you mention about the monolith versus the decomposed application of being agile. Because if you don't have the culture and the people to do it it's still a monolithic effort in the sense of the holistic thinking and the architectural, it's a systems architecture. You have to look at it like a system and that's not easy either. Once get that done the benefits are multifold in terms of like what you can do. But its it's that systems thinking setup is becoming more of an architectural concept that's super important. >> For sure if I have a microservice app, but it takes a 150 people to get that through change management and get it into production well that will still take me a year. Does it matter if there's maybe 12 lines of code in that application? It doesn't matter and so, you know I spend a lot of time. Even though I run Cloud Foundry, I spend a lot of time talking about culture change. All the writing I do is really around cultural change and what does that look like. Because at the end of the day if you're not willing to make those changes, you're not willing to structure your teams and allow for that collaboration and if you're doing iterative work, feedback loops from your customers. If you're not willing to put those pieces into place there is no technology that's going to make you better. >> I totally agree, so let me ask you a question on that point, great point, by the way. Most followed your you're writing your blog posts in the links, but I think that's the question. When do you know when it's not working? So I've seen companies that are rearranging the deckchairs, if you will, to use an analogy with all the culture rah, rah! And then nothing ever happens right? So they've gone into that paralysis mode. When do you look at a culture? When does the executive, what should they be thinking about because people kind of aspire to do this execution that you said is critical? When do you know it's not working or what should they be doing? What's the best practice? How does someone say hey you know what I really want is to be more holistic in my architecture. I don't want to spend two years on that the architecture and then find out it's now just starting. I want to get an architecture in place. I want to hit the ground running. >> I mean it's twofold, one, start small. I mean you're not going to change you know if you're an 85 year old company with 200,000 people you're not going to change that overnight and you should expect that's going to be an 8 to 10 year process now what that's also going to mean is you're going to have to have a really clear vision and you're going to have to be really committed like this is going to be a hard road but conversely when someone says what does success look like, when you're looking at a variety of companies how do you know which ones which ones you think are going to be the most successful at the end of the day because no one's ever actually done any of this before there's no one that's ever gone through this digital transformation and it should have come out on the other side no one. There isn't and so I think what does success look and I said well for me, what I look for are companies that are investing and re-skilling their workforce. That's what I'm looking for. I get real excited when companies talk about their internal boot camps or their programs to rescale or upscale their teams because it's not like you're going to lay off 20,000 people and hire 20,000 cloud native developers, they don't exist and they're certainly not going to exists for thousands of companies to go and do that so you know how are you investing in re-skilling because-- >> It's easy to grow your own internally from pre-existing positions. >> Well sure, they know your business. >> Rather than go to a job board that has no one available. >> And you know at the end of the day that needs to be your new business model what is digital transformation actually it's just a different way of working and there isn't, there is no destination to the digital trend. This isn't a journey that has an end and so you need to really think about how are you going to invest differently in your people so that they can continuously learn continuously learning needs to be part of your model and your mantra and that needs to be in everything you do from hiring to HR to MBO's to you know how do you how do you structure your teams like how do you make sure that people can constantly learn and evolve because if that's not happening it doesn't you know everything else is going to fall by the wayside >> Is the technology gap easy to fill? Lot of tech out there. Talent gap hard to fill. >> For sure. >> That's the real challenge. >> If you have all the best tech in the world but you don't have the right people or the right structure are you going to be successful, probably not. >> Yeah, that's a challenge. Alright, so final question for you where are you going to be, what's your schedule look like, where can people find you, what events going to be at? You guys have an event coming up? >> April 2nd through 4th in Philly. We're going to have a summit you want to see some people that are actually running cloud at scale that's the place to go >> April 5th? >> 2nd through 4th. First week of April Philly, fingers crossed good weather lots of cloud talk and it's a great way. >> City of Brotherly Love >> Yes, we're bringing it. >> Philadelphia. The Patriots couldn't make it to the playoffs last year but love the Philly fans down there Paul Martino and friends down there. Abby thanks for coming on. Appreciate it-good to see you. Thanks for the update. We'll see you around the events, I won't be able to make your event I'll be taking the week off skiing. >> Well one of us has to. >> First vacation of the year, two years. Thanks for coming in. >> You should do that. >> Abby Kearns here inside theCUBE for CUBEConversation I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching (funky music)

>> Live from San Francisco, it's theCUBE, covering Micron Insight 2018. Brought to you by Micron. >> Welcome back to San Francisco Bay everybody. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in live tech coverage. We're covering Micron Insight 2018. It's just wrapping up behind us. It's a day long of thought-leading content around AI, AI for good, how it's affecting the human condition and healthcare and the future of AI. I'm Dave Vellante, he's Peter Burris and that's the Golden Gate Bridge over there. You used to live right up that hill over there. >> I did. >> Dee Mooney is here. >> Until they kicked me out. >> Dee Mooney is here. She's the Executive Director of the Micron Foundation. Dee, thanks so much for taking time out of your schedule and coming on theCUBE. >> You bet, I'm very pleased to be here with you today. >> So, you guys had some hard news today. We heard about the 100 million dollar fund that you're launching, but you also had some news around the Foundation. >> That's right. >> The grant, you announced two winners of the grant. Tell us about that. >> That's right. So, it was a great opportunity for Micron to showcase its goodness and what a great platform for us to be able to launch the Advancing Curiosity grant. It is all around really focusing on that, on advancing curiosity, in the hopes that we can think about how might AI help for good, whether that's in business and health or life, and it's really a great platform for us to be able to be a part of today. >> So, what are the specifics? It was a million dollar grant? >> So, it was a million dollar fund and today we announced our first recipients. It was to the Berkeley College of Engineering, specifically their BAIR, which is Berkeley A, Artificial Intelligence Research lab, then also Stanford PHIND lab, which is the Precision, Health and Integrated Diagnostics lab. And then also a non-profit called AI For All, and really their focus is to get the next generation excited about AI and really help the underrepresented groups be exposed to the field. >> So with AI For All, so underrepresented groups as in the diversity culture-- >> Females, underrepresented groups that might not actually get the exposure to this type of math and science in schools and so they do summer camps and we are helping to send students there next summer. >> How do you decide, what are the criteria around which you decide who gets the grants, and take us through that process. >> Today, because we are all about goodness and trying to enhance and improve our communities, this was all around how can AI do some good. So, we are taking a look at what problems can be solved utilizing AI. The second thing we're taking a look at is the type of technology. We want students and our researchers to take a good look at how the technology can work. Then also, what groups are being represented. We want a very diverse group that bring different perspectives and we really think that's our true ability to innovate. >> Well, there's some real research that suggests a more diverse organization solves problems differently, gets to more creativity and actually has business outcomes. That may not be the objective here, but certainly it's a message for organizations worldwide. >> We certainly think so. The more people that are being involved in a conversation, we think the richer the ideas that come out of it. One more thing that we are taking a look at in this grant is we'd like the recipients to think about the data collection, the privacy issues, the ethical issues that go along with collecting such massive amounts of data, so that's also something that we want people to consider when they're applying. >> One of the challenges in any ethical framework is that the individuals that get to write the ethical framework or test the ethical framework, the ethics always works for them. One of the big issues that you just raised is that there is research that shows that if you put a certain class of people and make them responsible for training the AI system, that their biases will absolutely dominate the AI system. So these issues of diversity are really important, not just from a how does it work for them, but also from a very starting point of what should go into the definition of the problem, the approach and solution, how you train it. Are you going the full scope or are you looking at just segments of that problem? >> We'll take a look at, we hope to solve the problems eventually, but right now, just to start with, it's the first announcement of the fund. It's a million dollars, like we mentioned. The first three recipients were announced today. The other recipients that come along, we're really excited to see what comes out of that because maybe there will be some very unique approaches to solving problems utilizing AI. >> What other areas might you look at? How do you determine, curiosity and AI, how'd you come up with that and how do you determine the topics in the areas that you go after? >> The Micron Foundation's mission is to enhance our lives through our people and our philanthropy and we focus on stem and also basic human needs. So, when Micron is engaged in large business endeavors like today, talking about AI, it was the perfect opportunity for us to bring our goodness and focus on AI and the problems that can be solved utilizing it. >> Pretty good day today, I thought. >> Oh, yeah. >> I have to say, I've followed Micron for awhile and you guys can get pretty down and dirty on the technical side, but it was an up-level conversation today. The last speaker in particular really made us think a little bit, talking about are we going to get people to refer-- >> Max Tegmark, right? >> Was that Max Tegmark? Yeah. >> I think that's the name. I didn't catch his name, I popped in late. But he was talking about artificial general intelligence >> I know. >> Reaching, I guess a singularity and then, what struck me is he had a panel of AI researchers, all male, by the way, I think >> Yes. >> I noticed that. >> Yes, we did too. >> The last one, which was Elon Musk, who of course we all know, thinks that there's going to be artificial general intelligence or super intelligence, and he asked every single panel member, will we achieve that, and they all unanimously said yes. So, either they're all dead wrong or the world is going to be a scary place in 20, 30, 50 years. >> Right, right. What are your thoughts on that? >> Well, it was certainly thought-provoking to think about all the good things that AI can do, but also maybe the other side and I'm actually glad that we concluded with that, because that is an element of our fund. We want the people that apply to it or that we'll work with to think about those other sides. If these certain problems are solved, is there a down side as well, so that is definitely where we want that diverse thinking to come in, so we can approach the problems in a good way that helps us all. >> Limited time left, let's talk a little bit about women in tech. In California, Jerry Brown just signed a law into effect that, I believe it's any public company, has to have a woman >> On the Board? >> on the Board. What do you think about that? >> Well, personally, I think that's fantastic. >> Well, you're biased. (laughs) >> I might be a little biased. I guess it's a little unfortunate we now have to have laws for this because maybe there's not enough, I'm not exactly sure, 6but I think it's a step in the right direction. That really aligns well with what we try to do, bring diversity into the workplace, diversity into the conversation, so I think it's a good step in the right direction. >> You know, let's face it, this industry had a lack, really, of women leaders. We lost Meg Whitman in a huge Fortune 50 company, in terms of a woman leader, replaced by Antonio Neri, great guy, know him well, but that was one, if you're counting, one down. Ginni Rometty, obviously, huge presence in the industry. I want to ask you, what do you think about, I don't want to use the word quotas, I hate to use it, but if you don't have quotas, what's the answer? >> I don't know about quotas either. We do know that we help, our Foundation grants span the pipeline from young students all the way up through college and we see this pipeline. It starts leaking along the way. Fifth grade, we start seeing girls fall out. Eighth grade is another big-- >> In the U.S. >> In the U.S. >> Not so much in other countries, which is pretty fascinating. >> We are a global foundation and when we talk with our other partners, they're also interested in having stem outreach into their schools because they want to bring in the critical thinking and problem-solving skills, so, I used to think it was quite just a U.S. problem, but now being exposed to other cultures and countries, definitely they have a different approach, but I think it's a problem that we all strive to overcome. >> Well, it's pretty good research that shows that governance that includes women is generally more successful. It reaches better decisions, it reaches decisions that lead to, in the case of Boards, greater profitability, more success, so if you can't convince people with data, you have to convince them with law. At the end of the day, it would be nice if people recognized that a diverse approach to governance usually ends up with a better result but if you can't, you got to hit 'em over the head. >> I guess so, I guess so. >> Well, obviously, with the Kavanaugh confirmation, there's been a lot of talk about this lately. There's been some pretty interesting stuff. I've got two daughters, you have a daughter. Some pretty interesting stuff in our family chat that's been floating around. I saw, I think it was yesterday, my wife sent me a little ditty by a young woman who was singing a song about how tough it is for men, sort of tongue-in-cheek and singing things like, I can't open the door in my pajamas, I can't walk down the street on my phone at night, I can't leave my drink unattended, so tough for men, so tough for men, so on the one hand, you have the Me Too movement, you have a lot more, since Satya Nadella put his foot in his mouth at the Grace Opera event, I don't know if you saw that, he said-- >> I didn't. >> He said, a couple years ago >> He's the CEO of Microsoft. >> Said a couple years ago, a woman in the audience, Grace Opera, big conference for women, asked, "If we're underpaid, should we say anything?" and he said, no, that's bad kharma, you should wait and be patient, and then of course, he got a lot of you know what for that. >> That probably didn't work for them. And then, he apologized for it, he did the right thing. He said, you know what, I'm way off base and then he took proactive action. But, since then, you feel like there's been certainly much more attention paid to it, the Google debacle of last summer with the employee that wrote that Jerry Maguire tome. >> Right, right. >> Now the Me Too movement, then you see the reaction of women from the Kavanaugh appointment. Do you feel like we've made a lot of progress, but then you go, well, hmm, maybe we haven't. >> It sometimes feels like that. It sometimes feels like that. In my career, over 20 years, I have had a very positive experience working with men, women alike and have been very supported and I hope that we can continue to have the conversations and raise awareness, that everyone can feel good in their workplace, walking down the street and, like you mentioned, I think that it's very important that we all have a voice and all of us bring a different, unique perspective to the table. >> So do you feel that it's two steps forward, Dee, and maybe one step back every now and then, or are we making constant progress? >> It kind of feels like that right now. I'm not sure exactly why, but it seems like we're talking a lot about it more now and maybe just with a lot more attention on it, that's why it's seeming like we're taking a step back, but I think progress has been made and we have to continue to improve that. >> Yeah, I think if you strip out the politics of the Kavanaugh situation and then focus on the impact on women, I think you take a different perspective. I think that's a discussion that's worth having. On theCUBE last week, I interviewed somebody, she called herself, "I'm a Fixer," and I said, "You know, here's some adjectives I think of in a fixer, is a good listener, somebody who's a leader, somebody who's assertive, somebody who takes action quickly. Were those the adjectives that were described about you throughout your career, and the answer was, not always. Sometimes it was aggressive or right? >> True, true. >> That whole thing, when a woman takes swift action and is a leader, sometimes she's called derogatory names. When a man does it, he's seen as a great leader. So there's still that bias that you see out there, so two steps forward, one step back maybe. Well Dee, last thoughts on today and your mission. >> Well, we really hope to encourage the next generation to pursue math and science degrees, whether they are female or male or however they identify, and we want them to do great and hopefully have a great career in technology. >> I'm glad you mentioned that, 'cause it's not just about women, it's about people of color and however you identify. So, thanks very much for coming on theCUBE. We really appreciate it. >> You bet, thank you. >> Alright, keep it right there everybody. Back with our next guest right after this short break. We're live from Micron Insight 2018 from San Francisco. You're watching theCUBE. (techno music)

>> Announcer: Live from Vancouver, Canada, it's theCUBE, covering OpenStack North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. I'm Stu Miniman with my cohost for the week, John Troyer. Happy to welcome to the program first-time guest Ildiko Vancsa, coming off the edge keynote presentation this morning. She is the ecosystem technical lead with the Edge Computing Group as part of the OpenStack Foundation. Thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you. >> Coming into this show, edge is one of those things that it was actually pretty exciting to talk about because edge is not only super hot, but when I thought back to previous shows, this is the sixth year we've had theCUBE here and my fifth year doing it, it's like, wait, I've been talking to all the Telcos for years here. NFV was one of those use cases, and when you connect the dots, it's like oh, edge, of course. I said this conference is actually hipster when it comes to edge. We were totally covering it well before we called it that. So, explain to us your role in the foundation and what led to the formation of this track. >> Yeah, so I'm the ecosystem technical lead within the foundation, which is basically a role that belongs under the business development team. So, I'm basically building connections with our ecosystem members. I'm trying to help them succeed with OpenStack, both as software package and as a community. We are embracing open source, of course, so I'm also trying to advocate for involvement in open source because I think that's a key. Like, you know, picking up an open source software component and use it, that's a great start, but if you really want to be successful with it and you want to be able to successfully build it into your business model, then getting involved in the community, both enhancing the software and maintaining of the software, that's really key. So, my role is also onboarding companies as well to be active members of the community, and my focus is shifting toward edge computing. The history of edge computing in OpenStack basically started last May when Beth Cohen from Verizon described their use case, which is OpenStack in a tiny box in production cycle, wow. So that was also a little bit of an eye-opener for us as well, that yes, it's telecom. It's 5G, but this is the thing that's called edge, and maybe this is something that we should also look deeper into. So, we went to San Francisco last September, OpenDev, 200 people, architects, software developers trying to figure out what edge computing is. I think we had the question at every single session, someone asked that, okay, yeah so, what did you mean exactly when you said edge? Because from the nature of the architecture, like, you have the central cloud and then the sides on the different-- >> John: There are several edges depending on how far you want to go. >> Exactly. >> For you and OpenStack, what does edge mean, or all the above? >> With OpenStack, so after OpenDev when we realized that it's not really a well-defined term, we wrote up a white paper. It's at OpenStack the role/edge. It's a short one, really to just set the ground for what edge computing is. And what we came up with is, so don't imagine like a two-sentence definition for edge computing because I still strongly believe that doesn't exist, and anyone who claims it, that's not true. What we did with the white paper is basically we set characteristics and criteria that defines cloud edge computing per se, like what people are talking about when you're moving out the compute and then working closer to the edge. Like what that means from the bandwidth perspective, from how you will manage it, what that means for security, and all these sort of things. And you can basically characterize what edge means. So we rather described these layers and how far we go, and as far as like, you know, the very end edge device and like the IOT sensors, that's not a target of OpenStack. So, OpenStack itself is infrastructure as a service, so our Edge Computing Group is still staying on that layer. The Edge Computing Group itself is focusing on the angles, what edge brings onto the table, all these requirements, you know, collecting the use cases and trying to figure out what's missing, what we need to implement. >> If can repeat and maybe I'll get it right or wrong. The idea is at a cell tower or at a remote office or branch office or some closet somewhere, there is a full set of OpenStack running, maybe a minimal set of OpenStack, but it's live, it's updatable. You can update services on it. You can update the actual OpenStack itself, and it doesn't need the spoke hardware necessarily, but it's now updatable and part of a bigger multi-cloud infrastructure from some sort of service entity or enterprise. >> Yeah. >> Is that fair? >> I think that's fair. So, there's OpenStack itself that people know very well, a lot of projects. So when we talk about edge, obviously we don't want to say that, okay, pick the whole thing and install all the 60 projects because that's really not suitable for edge. So what, for example, the group is looking into, that which OpenStack components are essential for edge. And also the group is defining small edge, medium edge, what that means from hardware footprint perspectives, so just to figure out what the opportunities are there, what will fit, what will not fit. OpenStack itself is very modular by today, so you can pick up the services that you need. So what we discussed, for example, this week is Keystone, identity, you need it of course. So how much that fits into the edge scenarios. And I think the main conclusion of the forum session yesterday was that, yeah, Keystone supports Federation. We talked through the cases, and it seems like that it's kind of there. So, we now need a few people who will sit down, put together the environment, and start testing it because that's when it comes out that, you know, almost there, but there a few things to tweak. But basically the idea is what you described, pick up the component, put it there, and work with it. We also have another project called Cyborg, which is fairly new. That's for hardware acceleration, so it is providing a framework to plug in GPUs, FPJs, and these sort of, a bit more specialized hardware which will be really useful for edge use cases to OpenStack. So that's for example something that China Mobile and the OPNFV Edge Cloud Group is looking into to use, so I really hope that we will get there this year to test it in the OPNFV Pharos Labs in action. So we also have pretty great cross-community collaboration on trying to figure this whole thing out. >> Yeah, it often helps if we have examples to talk about to really explain this. Beth Cohen, we spoke with her last year and absolutely caught our attention. Got a lot of feedback from the community on it. Had Contron on earlier this week talking about, John was saying, here's some small device there with a little blade and is running pieces of OpenStack there to be able to run. Anything from the keynote or, boy, I think there's 40 sessions that you've got here. If you can, give us a couple of examples of some of the use cases that we're seeing to kind of bring this edge to reality. >> Example use cases is, we just heard this morning, for example, someone from the textile industry like how to detect issues with the fabric. So this is like one new manufacturing use case. I also heard another one, which is not checking the fabric itself, but basically the company who manufactures those machines that they are using to create the fabric, so they would like to have a central cloud and have it connected to the factories. So, being able to monitor how the machines are doing, how they can improve those machines, and also within the factory to monitor all the circumstances. Because for all the chemical processes, it's really important that the temperature and everything else is just, you know, clicks because otherwise all your fabrics will have to go to trash. So, that's manufacturing. A lot of telecom 5G, obviously that is really, really heavy because that's the part of the industry which is there today, so with 5G, all those strict requirements. This is really what we are mainly focusing on today. We are not specializing anything for telecom and in 5G use cases, but we want to make sure that all our components fit into that environment as well. In the white paper, for example, you also could see the retail use case. I'm not sure whether that will be exactly on stage this week, but that is also a great example on like Walmart with the lot of stores around, so how you manage those stores because they're also not wanting to do everything centrally. So, they would like to move the functionality out. What if the network connectivity is cut? They still have to be able to operate the store as nothing happened. So, there are a lot of segments of the industry who already have kind of really well-defined use cases. And what we see is that there's many overlapping between the requirements from the different segments that we're going to address. >> Are we seeing things like AI and ML coming up in these conversations also? >> Yes, like I think it was the manufacturing use case when I heard that they are planning to use that, and it's popping up. I think as far as our group is concerned, we are more looking into, I don't know, let's say lower-level requirements like how you maintain and operate the hundreds and thousands of edge sites, what happens with security, what happens with monitoring, what happens with all these sort of things. Like we have a new project rolling in under the foundation umbrella called Airship, which is basically deployment and lifecycle management, which is supposed to address one of the aspect that you were talking about on, okay, so how you manage this, how you upgrade this. And upgrade is, again, a really interesting question because I think I talked to someone yesterday who was like, yes, the Contron guys, they were saying that yeah, upgrade, it's really ambitious. So let say that maybe 18, 24 month or something like some kind of tech operator will decide to upgrade something out in the edge because it's out there, it's working, let's not touch this. So when we talk about upgrade, even that, I think, will depend on the bits of the industry that, what pace they will decide to take. >> Are there any particular surprises or learnings that you've had this year after talking with this community for a week now? You said, well, last year, I was very impressed last year when they got up on stage and talked about that. That kind of expanded my mind a little bit. You've been working with this now for a year, this whole track and forum sessions. Anything you're excited about taking to the future or learnings or surprises that, oh, this is really going to work or anything like that? Any parts of it that are really interesting? You talked about security upgrades. We've talked about a lot of the technical components, but it seems like it's working. >> I think at this point, at least on my end, I think I'm over the surprise phase. So what surprises me the most is how many groups there are out there who are trying to figure out what this whole edge thing is. And what we need to really focus on among the technical requirements is that how we are working together with all these groups just to make sure that the integration between the different things that we are all developing and working on is smooth. So like, we've been working together with the OPNFV community for a while now. It's a really fruitful relationship between us. Like seeing OpenStack being deployed in a full-stack environment and being tested, that's really priceless. And we are planning to do the same thing with edge as well, and we are also looking into ONAP, Aquino, Et-see-mac, so looking into the open source groups, looking into the standardization and really just trying to ensure that when we talk about open infrastructure, that that really is designed and developed in a way that integrates well with the other components. It's synchronized with the standardization activities because I think especially in case of edge, when we say interoperability, that's a level higher than what we call the interoperability on the telecom level I think. Like when you just imagine one operator network and applications from other providers popping up in that network, and components that just realizing the network popping up from different vendors. And this whole thing has to work together. So, I think OpenStack and open infrastructure has a really big advantage there compared to any proprietary solution because we have to address this, I think, really big challenge, and it's also a really important challenge. >> Ildiko, really appreciate you giving us all the updates here on the edge track, the keynote, definitely one of the areas that is capturing our attention and lots of people out there. So, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you for the opportunity. >> All right, for John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman. Lots more coverage here from the OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. Thanks for watching theCUBE.

>> Announcer: Live from Vancouver, Canada it's theCUBE covering OpenStack Summit North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE here at OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. I'm Stu Miniman with co-host this week is John Troyer. I'm happy to welcome to the program, first time guest. It's Anne Bertucio, who is the Kata Containers Community Manager with the OpenStack Foundation. Thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you for having me. >> All right, it's our pleasure and the containers has been a discussion we've been having for a few years now. I remember when we were last year in Vancouver, three years ago that the joke was it was Docker, Docker, Docker year. Tell us a little bit first your role, how long you've been with the foundation, and what you're covering there. >> Absolutely, I've been with the foundation for going on three years at this point. The Kata Containers Project we announced in December. It's come up and come in there as a community manager helping them figure out since December to the launch now, in less than six months we had to figure out how are we going to work together. How are we going to merge two code bases and we have to create a new open source project and new community. So leading that has been a big part of my work. >> So there's a whole track on Containers now. Give us a little bit of flavor for our audience that couldn't be sitting in the keynote and attend all the sessions. What were they missing? >> I think the major theme was security. Mia, she's the PM of security at Google. She opened it up saying containers don't contain. And I almost wished we'd been on a game show. Like containers don't contain. That was the theme of the day and we talked about where did Kata come from? Kata came from how do we answer that question. I think people got so excited about performance and portability about containers. We forgot about security a little bit and now we're seeing some of the ramifications and it's time to make this the year of security. >> So you talk about bringing two code basis together. Can you talk a little bit about what some of the ingredients are here to get to our dish that we finally call Kata Containers Projects? >> Yeah, absolutely, so we have ren-V from Hyper and we had Clear Containers from Intel. And they both looked at things a little differently like Hyper has a fracty implementation that was really critical to their customers. Clear Containers are becoming a little bit from runC Vert containers. And what we arrive at for 1.0 is the OCI compatible runtime is going to put a lightweight VM around your container, and we're thrilled to look beyond 1.0 and to things like supporting hardware accelerators. >> So it may be just to raise it up one level before we go on. How do containers in some sense, let's repeat maybe what you said, see if I get it right. >> Anne: Yeah. >> It's wrapping a container and a lightweight VM. And that gives us the isolation and security that's traditionally associated with a virtual machine with all the APIs and flexibility and performance, and all the other goodness of a container. One container in one VM is the first implementation. >> Yeah, I think the easy way to think about, you're talking about Docker Docker Docker. So in Kata, really instead of using runC as your runtime, we would just say Kata runtime, and now we have our Docker containers but they're wrapped in these light weight VMs each with their own kernel. >> I think back to the early days when we were trying to figure out what these whole containers were and was that the death of virtualization? It was like VMs, gosh they take minutes to spin up, and container is super fast. Security, oh VMs yeah, there's security there but we need to move fast, fast, fast. So explain how this helps bring together the peanut butter and chocolate, if we will? >> Absolutely, oh I love peanut butter and chocolate but that's really what it is. Like you were saying virtualization, yes. Super secure, slow. I think I have a clip art chart with a sad turtle on it. A little bit slower. The container is super fast, we're getting a little nervous about security. I think we maybe see groups and name spaces are good, but people who are enterprise environments. They've been putting full blown VMs around their containers 'cause they were saying well it's not enough. And I need two isolation boundaries, not just one. >> Right, in terms of some of the use cases then. I imagine multitenancy would be one and then perhaps even, I think some of the newest trend defense in depth of even an individual app putting different zones in different components or different risk zones in their own containers, their own VMs. Even inside an individual app just making sure that the different components can only talk to each other in ways that they're suppose to. >> Absolutely, I think it's anytime where you're running untrusted code, or you have questions about what's going on there or you just want a heightened security. Kata is an easy used case then. >> Sure, I guess my VMware call it microsegmentation would be their buzz word on it. >> Oh I got to think about what mine is going to be. >> Or we can all use the same words, it's good. >> So Anne, Intel Clear Containers was a piece of this. Of course Intel partners with everyone there. Give us a little bit also the ecosystem and the team that makes this up. Is this, people out there will be like, oh, well but Docker has their solution and VMware has their solution. How does this fit into the broader ecosystem? >> Our team is incredibly diverse. I've just been thrilled with 1.0. We had 40 contributors from a good diversity of companies. Our architecture committee, it's Google, it's Huawei, Hyper, Intel and Microsoft and I think we've, I was saying in the other note the other day. I was on a call for a architecture committee and we had AMD, ARM and Intel all talking about the same solution. So it's the beauty of open source that we've brought all of these groups together. >> One of the things that also struck us especially if we've been here. The diversity of the show is always really good. The main keynote, it's not oh, did they brought up some people of diversities. Oh no, these are the project leads and therefore they're doing this. Can you touch on some of the diversity and activities at the show itself? >> In terms of technologies, we're looking at or? >> No, I just, so there is, I'm just saying you talked about the community, the diversity of companies as well, the diversity of people. So we've got lots of the women inclusion. >> Oh sure. >> Things like that. >> Yeah, I know we had the executive producer of Chasing Grace was here and I know she's been, Jennifer Clower, is that correct? >> Stu: Yes, Jennifer Clower. We actually interviewed her last week at a different show. >> Oh fantastic. Yeah her document has been incredibly well received. I know she's making the rounds to get the word out there about what's going on with Women in Tech. And we were more than thrilled to host her and have her here and be apart of conversation. >> Clear Community is a big part of OpenStack, the OpenStack Summit and care of the OpenStack Foundation. In terms of Kata Containers, you work for the OpenStack Foundation. Is Kata officially then part of the OpenStack or does that have a different governance model? >> That's a great question. This is an area of confusion because it's the first time the foundation is broken out and there's the OpenStack Project, and there's Kata Containers the Project, but we both live at the OpenStack Foundation. >> John: Okay. >> I think the guiding principles though, and it's really helped us over the last four months is that the OSF, OpenStack Foundation, we believe in open source, open design, open development and open community. And Kata, we were like that's a great home. We believe in that as well. >> Any customers that are yet talking about their early usage of Kata that you can share? >> I think we have a lot of customers from runV and Clear Containers and Kata is going to be their next path forward. So with 1.0 out yesterday, I'm excited to see. We should see some upgrades real soon here. >> What's the path for them to get from where they are to the 1.0? Is that pretty straightforward? >> It should be, yeah, we think so. And they have their support from Intel and from Hyper to help them out with that as well. >> Stu: Okay. >> I was going to ask is Kata Containers, is it integrated in an API or is OpenStack necessary for it or is it independent of, from an infrastructure perspective, OpenStack, the stack? >> Yeah, it's completely independent, but it's also compatible. >> John: Okay. >> You can run on Azure, Google, OpenStack, agnostic of the infrastructure underneath it. >> John: Great. >> Anne, want to give you a final word. Takeaways from the show that you'd want people to have. >> Absolutely, I think the final word is containers are fantastic, it's probably time to take a look at your container architecture. Think about it from a security perspective, and I would encourage everyone to go check out Kata Containers and see if that's the solution for them. >> Anne Bertucio, really appreciate you joining and sharing with us everything happening. It can work with or without the OpenStack Containers. Absolutely a big trend, but security absolutely top of mind from everyone we've talked to. If it's not top of mind of a company, I'm always a little bit worried about them. For John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman. We'll be back with lots more coverage here from OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. Thanks for watching theCUBE. (uptempo techno music)

>> Narrator: Live from Vancouver, Canada it's theCUBE covering OpenStack Summit North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE, I'm Stu Miniman, with my cohost John Troyer, and happy to welcome to the program, fresh off the container keynote, Chris Hodge, who's the senior strategic program manager with the OpenStack Foundation. Thanks so much for joining us. >> Oh yeah, thanks so much for having me. >> Alright, so short trip for you, then John's coming from the Bay Area, I'm coming from the east coast. You're coming up from Portland, which is where it was one of the attendees at the Portland OpenStack Summit, they said, "OpenStack has arrived, theCUBE's there." So, shout out to John Furrier and the team who were there early. I've been to all the North America ones since. You've been coming here for quite a while and it's now your job. >> I've been to every OpenStack Summit since then. And to the San Francisco Summit prior to that, so it was, yeah, I've been a regular. >> Okay so for those people that might not know, what's a Foundation member do these days? Other than, you know, you're working on some of the tech, you're giving keynotes, you know, what's a day in the life? >> Yeah, I mean, I mean for me, I feel like I'm really lucky because the OpenStack Foundation, you know, has you know, kind of given me a lot of freedom to go interact with other communities and that's been one of my primary tasks, to go out and work with adjacent communities and really work with them to build integrations between OpenStack and right now, particularly, Kubernetes and the other applications that are being hosted by the CNCF. >> Yeah, so I remember, and I've mentioned it a few times this week, three years ago we were sitting in the other side of the convention center, with theCUBE and it was Docker, Docker, Docker. The container sessions were overflowing and then a year later it was, you know, oh my gosh, Kubernetes. >> Chris: Yeah. (chuckles) >> This wave of, does one overtake the other, how do they fit together, and you know, in the keynotes yesterday and I'm sure your keynote today, talked a lot a bit about you know, the various ways that things fit together, because with open source communities in general and tech overall, it's never binary, it's always, it depends, and there's five different ways you could put things together depending on your needs. So, what are you seeing? >> I mean it's almost, yeah, I mean saying that it's one or the other and that one has to win and the other has to lose is actually kind of, it's kind of silly, because when we talk about Kubernetes and we talk about Docker, we're generally talking about applications. And, you know, and, with Kubernetes, when you're very focused on the applications you want to have existing infrastructure in place. I mean, this is what it's all about. People talk about, "I'm going to run my Kubernetes application "on the cloud, and the cloud has infrastructure." Well, OpenStack is infrastructure. And in fact, it is open source, it's an open source cloud. And so, so for me it feels like it's a very natural match, because you have your open application delivery system and then it integrates incredibly well with an open source cloud and so whether you're looking for a public cloud running on OpenStack or you're hosting a private cloud, you know, to me it's a very natural pairing to say that you have an OpenStack cloud, you have a bunch of integrations into Kubernetes and that the two work together. >> I think this year that that became a lot clearer, both in the keynotes and some of the sessions. The general conversation we've had with folks about the role of Kubernetes or an orchestration or the cloud layer, the application layer, the application deployment layer say, and the infrastructure somebody's got to manage the compute the network storage down here. At least, in this architectural diagram with my hands but, you can also, a couple of demos here showed deploying Kubernetes on bare metal alongside OpenStack, with that as the provider. Can you talk a little bit about that architectural pattern? It makes sense, I think, but then, you know, it's a apparent contradiction, wait a minute so now the Kubernetes is on the bare metal? So talk about that a little bit. >> So, I think, I think one of the ways you can think about resolving the contradiction is OpenStack is a bunch of applications. When you go and you install OpenStack we have all of these microsurfaces that are, some are user facing and some are controlling the architecture underneath. But they're applications and Kubernetes is well-suited for application delivery. So, say that you're starting with bare metal. You're starting with a bare metal cloud. Maybe managed by OpenStack, so you have OpenStack there at the bottom with Ironic, and you're managing your bare metal. You could easily install Kubernetes on that and that would be at your infrastructure layer, so this isn't Kubernetes that you're giving to your users, it's not Kubernetes that you're, you know, making world facing, this is internally for your organization for managing your infrastructure. But, you want OpenStack to provide that cloud infrastructure to all of your users. And since OpenStack is a big application with a lot of moving parts, Kubernetes actually becomes a very powerful tool, or any other container orchestration scheme becomes a very powerful tool for saying that you drop OpenStack on top of that and then all of a sudden you have a public cloud that's available for, you know, for the users within your organization, or you could be running a public cloud and providing those services for other people. And then suddenly that becomes a great platform for hosting Kubernetes applications on, and so the layers kind of interleave with one another. But even if you're not interested in that. Let's say you're running Kubernetes as bare metal and you're just, you want to have Kubernetes here providing some things. There's still things that OpenStack provides that you may already have existing in your infrastructure. >> Kubernetes kind of wants, it wants to access some storage. >> It wants to consume storage for example, and so we have OpenStack Cinder, which right now it supports you know, somewhere between, you know over 70 storage drivers, like these drivers exist and the nice thing about it is... You have one API to access this and we have two drivers within that, two Cinder drivers, you can either choose the, the flex volume storage or the container storage interface, the CSI storage interface. And Cinder just provides that for you. And that means if you have mixed storage within your data center, you put it all behind a Cinder API and you have one interface to your Kubernetes. >> So Chris, I believe that's one of the pieces of I believe it's called the Cloud Provider OpenStack. You talked about in the keynote. Maybe walk us through with that. >> Cloud Provider OpenStack is a project that is hosted within the, within the Kubernetes community. And it's... The owner of that code is the SIG OpenStack community inside of Kubernetes. I'm one of the three leads, one of the three SIG leads of that group and, that code does a number of things. The first is there's a cloud manager interface that is a consistent interface for Kubernetes to access infrastructure information in clouds. So information about a node, when a node joins a system, Kubernetes will know about it. Ways to attach storage, ways to provision load balancers. The cloud manager interface allows Kubernetes to do this on any cloud, whether it be Azure or GCE or Amazon. Also OpenStack. Cloud Provider OpenStack is the specific code that allows us to do that, and in fact we were, OpenStack was one of the first providers that existed in upstream Kubernetes you know, so it's kind of, we've been there since the very beginning, like this has been a, you know, an effort that's happened from the beginning. >> Somewhat non-ironically, right? A lot of that you've talked about, the OpenStack Foundation and this OpenStack Summit, a lot of the things talked about here are not OpenStack per se, the components, they are containers, there's the OpenDev Conference here, colocated. Is there confusion, there doesn't, I'm getting it straight in my head, Is there, was there, did you sense any confusion of folks here or is that, if you're in it you understand what's going on and why all these different threads are flowing together in kind of an open infrastructure conversation. It seems like the community gets it and understand it and is broadened because of it. >> Yeah, I mean, to me I've seen a tremendous shift over the last year in the general understanding of the community of the role all of these different applications play. And I think it's really, it's actually a testament to the success of all of these projects, in particular, we're building open APIs, we're building predictable behavior, and once you have that, and you have many people, many different organizations that are able to provide that, they're all able to communicate with one another and leverage the strengths of the other projects. >> All of a sudden, a standard interface, low and behold, right? A thousand flowers bloom on top. >> You know, it essentially allows you to build new things on top of that, new more interesting things. >> Alright, Chris, any interesting customer stories out of the keynote that we should share with the audience? >> I mean, there are so many fantastic stories that you can talk about, I mean, of course we saw the CERN keynote, where they're running managed Kubernetes on top of OpenStack. They have over 250 Kubernetes clusters doing research that are managed by OpenStack Magnum. I mean that's just, to me that's just tremendous. That this is being used in production, it's being used in science, and it's not just across one cloud, it's across many clouds and, You know, we also have AT&T, which has been working very hard on combining OpenStack and Kubernetes to manage their next generation of, of teleco infrastructure. And so, they've been big drivers along with SK Telecom on using Kubernetes as an infrastructure layer and then putting OpenStack on top of that, and then delivering applications with that. And so those are, you know we, the OpenStack Foundation just published on Monday a new white paper about OpenStack, how OpenStack works with containers and these are just a couple of the case studies that we actually have listed in that white paper. >> Chris, you're at the interface between OpenStack, which has become more mature and more stable, and containers, which, although it is maturing is still a little bit, is moving fast, right? Containers and Kubernetes both, a lot of development. Every summit, a lot of new projects, lot of new ways of installing, lot of new components, lot of new snaps. All sorts of things. What are you looking forward to now over the next year in terms of container maturity and how that's going to help us? >> So... People are talking so much now about security with containers and this is another really exciting thing that's coming out of our work because, you know, during one of the container keynotes, one of the things that was kind of driven home was containers don't contain. But, we're actually, at the OpenStack Foundation, we're kind of taking that on, and we, and my colleague Anne Bertucio has been leading a project, you know, has been community manager for a product called Kata Containers, which is, you know, you could almost call it containers that do contain. So I think that this is going to be really exciting in the next year as we talk more and more about we're building more generic interfaces and allowing all sorts of new approaches to solving complex problems, be it in security, be it in performance, be it in logging and monitoring. And so, I think, so the tools that are coming out of this and you know, creating these abstractions and how people are creatively innovating on top of those is pretty exciting. >> The last thing I'm hoping you can help connect the dots for us on is, when we talk Kubernetes, we're talking about multi-cloud. One of the big problems about Kubernetes, you know, came out of Google from you know, if you just say, "Why would Google do this?" It's like, well, there's that one really big cloud out there and if I don't have some portability and be able to move things, that one cloud might just continue to dominate. So, help connect OpenStack to how it lives in this multi-cloud world. Kubernetes is a piece of that, but you know, maybe, would love your viewpoint. >> Yeah, so. This is happening on so many levels. We see lots of large organizations who want to take back control of the cost of cloud and the cost of their cloud infrastructure and so they're starting to pull away from the big public clouds and invest more in private infrastructure. We see this with companies like eBay, we see it with companies like AT&T and Walmart, where they're investing heavily in OpenStack clouds. So that they have more control over the cost and how their applications are delivered. But you're also seeing this in a lot of... Like especially municipalities outside of the United States, you know, different governments that have data restrictions, restrictions on where data lives and how it's accessed, and we're seeing more governments and more businesses overseas that are turning to OpenStack as a way to have cloud infrastructure that is on their home soil, that you know, kind of meets the requirements that are necessary, you know that are necessary for them. And then kind of the third aspect of all of this is sometimes you just, sometimes you need to have lots of availability across, you know, many clouds. And you can have a private cloud, but possibly, in order to serve your customers, you might need public cloud resources, and federation across, across this, both in OpenStack and Kubernetes is improving at such an incredible pace that it becomes very easy to say that I have two, three, four, five clouds, but we're able to, we're able to combine them all and make them all look like one. >> Alright, well Chris Hodge, we really appreciate the updates on OpenStack and Kubernetes in all the various permutations. >> Yeah, it was great talking about it. This is, I mean this is the work that I love and I'm excited about, and this is, you know, I'm looking forward to it, I have fun with it and I keep looking forward to everything that's coming. >> Awesome, well we love to be able to share these stories, the technologists, the customers and everything going on in the industry. For John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman, back with more coverage here from OpenStack Summit 2018 in beautiful Vancouver, British Columbia. Thanks for watching theCUBE. (tech music)

>> Announcer: Live, from Vancouver, Canada, it's theCUBE, covering OpenStack Summit North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome to theCUBE's coverage of OpenStack Summit 2018 here in Vancouver. I'm Stu Miniman with my cohost, John Troyer. And happy to welcome back to the program, fresh off the keynote stage, Mark Collier, who's the chief operating officer of the OpenStack Foundation. >> Thank you. Thanks for having me back. >> Thank you for having us back and thank you again for doing the show in Vancouver, so-- >> Oh man, such an amazing place. Like this convention center, I don't think it's fair to call it a convention center because it's like a work of art, you know? >> And it's my second time here for this show, and I think kudos to your team because you have good enough content that people aren't just wandering around, taking pictures of the mountains. My wife is off seizing the whale watching right now, but everybody else here, they're engaged. And that's what you want in the community. >> Yeah, definitely. I guess you have to make sure you don't lose their attention to the whales and the sea planes, but so far everyone seems to be gettin' down to business. >> You know, I think it would be fair to say that there's some transitions going on in the marketplace in general, and at this show I notice when I got the invitation, it's like the OpenStack slash open infrastructure summit. Got a big track on edge computing, got another one on containers, been talking about containers for a few years at this show, which really interesting to talk about. And I mean, the edge stuff, we were talking about it as NFV and the telcos and all that stuff in the past. What is the OpenStack Summit these days, Mark? >> Yeah, I mean I think that it's evolving to reflect what people are doing with open source when it comes to infrastructure. And so we call it open infrastructure, but basically it's just a world of possibilities have been opened up by, of course, OpenStack, but also many, many other components, some of which came before like Linux and things like that, and some of which started after, like Kubernetes, and there's many other examples, TensorFlow for AI machine learning. So there's kind of this like embarrassment of riches these days if yo want to automate your infrastructure in a cloud-like fashion. You can do so many more things with it, and OpenStack solves a very specific, very important layer which is that kind of traditional infrastructure as a service layer, compute storage and networking. But once you automate that, it's proven, it's reliable, you could run millions of cores with it like some of our users are doing. You want to do more and that means layering other things on top or sort of connecting them in different ways. So just trying to help users get something more out of the technology is really what we're about and OpenStack becomes like an enabler rather than kind of like the whole conversation. Yeah, one of the things I always say in this industry, sometimes we just don't have the right expectations going into these environments. You know, when I think back 15 years ago as to what we thought Linux was going to do. Oh it's going to crush Microsoft. It's like, well, Microsoft is still doing quite well and Linux has done phenomenal. We wouldn't have companies like, Google if it wasn't for the likes of Linux. In an open source you've got a lot of tools out there. So while there are the CERNs and Walmarts of the world that take a full OpenStack distribution and put out tons of cores, I've run into software companies where when I dig into their IP, oh what do ya know, there's a project from OpenStack in there that enables what they're doing. So I've seen at a lot of shows they're like, there's companies that are like, yes, I want it, and then there's like, oh no, there's this piece of it I want, there's that piece what I want. And that's kind of the wonder of OpenStack that I can do all of those things. >> Yeah exactly. I think we've talked before about sort of calling it composable open infrastructure, and making, OpenStack's always been architecturally designed from, in terms of the goals around it, to be pluggable so from the beginning you could plug multiple hypervisors kind of underneath and you could plug different backends for storage and networking, so that sort of concept of being something, integration engine that plugs things in is part of the OpenStack kind of philosophy, but now you see that the OpenStack services themselves are sort of, you can think of them as microservices, and like if you just need block storage you can use sender. And that may make sense for some specific environments, and are you running OpenStack? Well, you are, but it gets a little bit fuzzy in terms of are you running all of it or part of it? And the reality is the things are not as simple as a binary yes or no. It's just that the options are much greater now. >> Well Mark, that has been some of the discussion in the community over the last few years, the core versus the big tent, and now of course with all this interoperability, conversations with both OpenStack participating in other communities and other communities here today, this week. I mean, what's the current state of that conversation about what is OpenStack and how does it interrelate? I think you kind of touched on it with this composable idea. >> Yeah, I mean I think that basically it's kind of like OpenStack is as OpenStack does, you know? So what are people doing with it and that tells you kind of what it is and what people are doing with it. There are a lot of different patterns. There's no like one specific deployment pattern that everyone uses, but probably by and large, by far the most common pattern is OpenStack plus Kubernetes. And so when you talk about the interop piece, this is a really good example where OpenStack has evolved to become a better, kind of better citizen, I guess, of open infrastructure by having more reliable APIs, kind of being a target that tools that build on top can rely on and not sort of have to worry about the snowflakes of different clouds and there's still more work to be done in that area, but we talked about OpenLab, which is an initiative, this morning, that puts together OpenStack, Kubernetes, and other pieces like Terraform and things like that, and does constant end-to-end testing on it, and that's really how you make sure that you know kind of what combinations work well together, and sometimes you just find bugs, and it turns out a couple of changes need to be made upstream in Kubernetes or in OpenStack or in gophercloud or in Terraform, and just if you don't know, then the user kind of with the some assembly required model, finds out and they're like, I don't know, it doesn't work, it's broken. Well, is it OpenStack's fault or Kubernetes's fault, and they don't, they just want it to work. >> So you're saying >> Identified upstream we can fix it. >> You're saying OpenStack has become more of a stable layer of the (mumbles). >> Yes exactly, yes. It has become a much more stable layer. >> Which means there wasn't a whole lot of flashy storage network and compute up on stage actually. >> A lot of the talk-- >> Yeah, it's a really good point. I think it's just really proven in that way, and you know, one of the things that was highlighted was like the virtual GPUs, right? So, if OpenStack is designed to be pluggable, what do people want to have as an option now in terms of compute storage and networking, on the compute side is they want GPUs, because that gives an AI machine learning much faster, if they're bit coin miners, like I'm sure you all are in your basement, they're going to want GPUs. And what was really interesting is that the PTL, like the technical leader of the Nova Project, got up and talked about virtual GPUs. I was back in the green room and like three of the other keynote speakers were like, oh man, we are so excited about this VGPU support. Like, our customers are asking for it, the guy, Mohammad from Vexos, is the CEO of Vexos, he said, our customers are demanding this queens release, which is the latest OpenStack, and we were kind of surprised, they just really want this queens release. So we asked them why and they're like well they want VGPU. So that's kind of an example of an evolution in OpenStack itself, but it's an extension, enabler for things like GPUs, and that's kind of an exciting area as well. >> You know, it's interesting because in previous years it was the major release was one of the main things we talked about. Queens, as you mentioned, other than the VGPUs and that little discussions, spent a lot more time outside, talked to a lot of the users. You talked about the new tracks that were there. And something I heard a lot this year that I hadn't heard for a few years was, get involved, we're looking to build. And I was trying to think of a sports analogy, and maybe it was like, okay, we're actually building more of a league here and we're looking to recruit as opposed to or is it rebuilding what exactly OpenStack 2.0 is in the future? >> Yeah, that's a really interesting point. You're absolutely right, and I can imagine or can remember sort of talking to some of the speakers as they were working on their content, and I don't think I totally picked up that that was a big trend, but you're absolutely right, that was a major call to action from so many different people. I think it's because when we think about what we are as a community, I talked about how we're a community of people who build and operate open infrastructure, and it's really about solving problems, and if you're as open to community collaboration and you want to solve problems, you can't be afraid to stand up and say we have problems. And sometimes maybe that feels awkward. It's like the tech 101 is get up and say you solved all the problems and you should buy it today. It's online or downloaded or whatever. And I think we just realized that the magic of our community is solving problems. There's always going to be more problems to solve, now you're putting more pieces together, which means the pieces themselves have to evolve and the testing and integration has to evolve. Like it's just a new set of challenges and sort of saying, here's what we're trying to solve, it's not done, help us, actually is more, I think, true to kind of what the community is all about. >> I'm wondering, do we know how many people are at the show this year? >> I don't have the exact count. I think it's around 2600, something like that. >> Yeah, so fair to say it might be a little bit less than last year's North America show? >> Yeah, it is a little bit less. >> And what are you hearing from the user? What are the main things they come for? That you got the new tracks, you've got the open dev conference co-located. What kind of key themes can you get from the users? >> Yeah, I mean, I think one of the things that we found is that we have twice as many cloud architects this year than a year ago. So I think there's always this period of time where conference attendance is driven by curiosity. Like, I've heard about this thing, what is it, or it's the cool factor, hype curves and all that stuff, I want to learn about it. At this point people know what OpenStack is. We've got tons of ways you can learn about it. There's local meetups, there's OpenStack Days all over the world, there's content, videos online. It's just not like a mystery anymore. Like the mystery draws in kind of the people that are just poking around to learn. Now we're at that point of, okay I know what it is, I know what it's for, I want to architect a solution around it, so seeing twice as many cloud architects I think is an interesting data point to think about how we're shifting more towards, people are not asking if it's proven, they're like it's been proven for whatever, two, three years, however, the perception is, but the technology is just very, very solid. It's running infrastructure all over the world, the largest banks and so on and so, I think that's kind of how things are shifting to what else can we do and put on top of it, now that it's a solid foundation. >> I wonder, sometimes there's that buzz as to what's going on out there. There was a certain large analyst firm that wrote a report a couple months ago that wasn't all that favorable about OpenStack. There's others that watching on Twitter during the keynote, and they're like, they're spending all their time talking about containers, why isn't this just part of the Cloud Native Con, KubCon show? What's the foundation's feedback on, what are you hearing kind of, what's your core deliverables? And why this show should continue in the future? >> Sure, I mean I think that what we're hearing generally from users and seeing in our data as well as from analysts like 451 and IDC, those are a couple of different reports coming out, like right now or just came out, that Jonathan mentioned this morning, I think is adoption just continues to grow, and so you know, I think people are not looking at just one technology stack. And maybe they never were, but I think there was this kind of temptation to just think of it, is it containers versus VMs or is it Kubernetes versus OpenStack? And it's like, no one who really runs infrastructure thinks like that because they might have thought it until they tried it, they realized these things go together. So I think the future of this conference is just becoming more and more centered around what are the use cases? What are the technical challenges we're trying to solve? And to the extent we're getting patterns and tools that are emerging like the lamp stack of the cloud, so to speak. How can people adopt them? So you think about cloud as taking all kinds of new forms, edge computing, those are the kinds of things that I think will become a bigger part of the conference in the future. I do like the open infrastructure angle on this. I mean, as infrastructure folks, right, you know that that storage compute network doesn't manage itself, doesn't configure itself. >> Mark: Totally. >> Doesn't provision itself. And so a lot of the app layer things should rely on this lower layer. And I thought last year in Boston there was this kind of curious OpenStack or containers conversation, which seemed odd at the time, and that's clarified, I think, at a number of levels from a number of camps and vendors. >> Yeah I agree, I think we have done our best from our point of view, from the foundation, myself, and the others that are involved in our community to try to dispell those myths or tamper down that kind of sense of a rivalry, but it takes time and I do feel like there is kind of a sea change now. There are just so many people running in production with various container tools, predominantly Kubernetes and in OpenStack that I think that that sort of myth that they're, that one's replacing the other, it's hard for that cognitive dissonance to last forever when you're given like the hundredth example of like somebody running in production at scale. Like they must be doing it for a reason, and then people start to go, well why is that? >> And I did like the comment you did make about cloud is not consolidating and simplifying, right? Even at the Dell Technologies World show, Michael Dell got up and talked about the distributed core, which is a little bit of an oxymoron, but the fact is compute and compute is everywhere, right? And it's not only, it's on the edge, it's on telephone poles, it's in little boxes in our, you know, going to be on our walls, in our walls, right? And this open infrastructure idea can play everywhere. It's not just about an on-prem data center anymore. >> Yeah and I think that's a big part of why we started to say open infrastructure instead of cloud, just because, I mean, you know, I guess we spent 10 years arguing over the definition of cloud, now we can argue over open infrastructure. But to me it's a little more descriptive and a little less kind of, I don't know, a little less baggage than the term cloud. >> Yeah, definitely differentiates it as to where you sit in the marketplace. And one thing I definitely want to give the foundation great kudos on, the diversity of this show is excellent. Not just that there was a welcome happy hour and there's a lunch, but look at all the PTLs, the project leads that are there, a lot of diversity, up on stage. It's just evident. >> Mark: Thank you. >> And it's just something kind of built into the community, so great job there. >> Thank you, I'm very proud of the fact that we had just so many excellent keynote speakers this morning, and you know, that's always something that we strive for, but I feel like we got closer to the goal than ever in terms of just getting broad representation up on the stage. And some amazing leaders. >> It's always nice from our standpoint because we always say give us your keynote speakers and give us some of the main people making things happen, and it just naturally flows that we have a nice diversity, from gender, from geography. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> From various backgrounds, so that's good. All right, want to give you the final word. Take aways that you want people after the show or maybe some things that people might not know if they didn't make it here for the show. >> I mean, I think, you know, the number one take away is it's all about the people, and we want to make it about the headlines or the technology, and even the technology is about the people, but certainly the operators are not, like I said, logos don't operate clouds or infrastructure, people do, so getting to meet the people, seeing what they're doing, like the Adobe I mentioned, they're marketing cloud. They have 100,000 cores of compute with four people operating it. So if you've got the right four people and the right playbook, you can do that, too. But you got to meet those people and find out how they're doing it, get their recipe, get their playbook, and they're happy to share it, and then you can run at that kind of scale, too, without a big team and you can change the way you operate. >> Yeah, I know I said in my last question, but the last thing, I know there's been a big emphasis to not just do the two big shows a year, but the OpenStack days and other events globally, give people, how do they get involved and where can they come to find out more? >> Yeah, that's a great question. I'm glad you asked because, there are so many ways to get involved and of course it's online, it's IRC, it's mailing lists 24/7, but there's no substitute when it's about the people for meeting in person. So we have the two summits a year. We're also having an event which is called the PTG, which is really for the developers and some of the operators will be coming this fall as well where we're having it in Denver, but the summits are the big shows twice a year, but the OpenStack days are really important. Those are annual, typically one to two day events, in 15 plus countries around the world. One in particular that is going to be really exciting this year is in Beijing. You know, we've had that for the last couple of years. Huge event, but of course, others throughout Europe and Asia. Tokyo is always an awesome OpenStack day, and then there are quite a few in Europe as well. So that's another way you can get involved. Not necessarily have to fly around the world, but if you do have to fly around the world, being in Vancouver is not a bad spot, so. >> Yeah, absolutely, and boy we know there's a lot of OpenStack happening in China. >> Yes there is. >> So Mark Collier, thanks again to the foundation for allowing theCUBE to cover this. >> Sure. >> And thanks so much for joining us. >> Mark: Thank you. >> For John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman, back here with lots more of three days wall-to-wall coverage here from OpenStack Summit 2018. Thanks for watching theCUBE. (techno music) (shutter clicks)

>> Male Narrator: Live from Copenhagen, Denmark. It's theCUBE, covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2018, brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Hello everyone, welcome back, this is theCUBE's exclusive coverage of KubeCon 2018. Part of the CNCF Cloud Native Computing Foundation, part of the Linux Foundation, this is theCUBE. I'm John Furrier with co-host, with Lauren Cooney, founder of Spark Labs, helping me out as analyst this week, great to have our next guest, shared acquaintance, Abby Kearns, Executive Director of Cloud Foundry Foundation, Cube alumni, welcome back! >> Thanks for having me back again. >> Got your voice, you're losing your voice from all the talking you're doing here on Cloud Foundry. >> Cloud cloud cloud all the time. >> So we were talking yesterday, I want to get you on because you guys have done some research. >> Yeah. >> On cloud, and we were chatting about, I should give you a plug on the opening segment yesterday about some of the things you're finding about Kubernetes. Certainly in our bubble, it's so passe now, we're moving on to STO and CUBE Flow, but you have research that, you know, is mainstream tech, outside of the bubble we live in, is actually now evolving into the first inning of Kubernetes, if you will. What does the research say, what's that all about? >> Well, the research says, trying not to apologize already, my voice is all over the place, so we've been tracking containers for now almost three years and I remember three years ago, everyone's like, "Okay, well we've talked about Docker for years now, "it's so passe," but when you got beyond the bubbles where tech is, people were just like starting to think about it. And so containers are just now getting to where people are either using them or using them as proof of concept. But Kubernetes has become a really big part of the conversation the last year, and it's continuing to take it by storm, and so we're starting to see organizations that are interested in it, but in terms of adoption and awareness beyond just the core central, there's still a massive education gap there. And a really big opportunity to educate people, not only on these tools, but what they really want to know is how do these tools help them get through their day and accomplish their work? >> So essentially, there's a lag of sequence of early adopters, fast followers, and now mainstream. Mainstream are getting accustomed to containers, now hitting up on Kubernetes, we're still pushing the front line. >> Well I think, you know, we are, and I think this is one of my observations as well, Abby, is that we look at these technologies, right? And I'm in the hallways, and I'm talking to folks in the cab line and things along those lines, and they're just here to actually learn about the technology, about Kubernetes, they actually don't understand it fully yet, and they're trying to figure out really what to do with it, and their companies have sent them here. And then it's, you know, you talk to the folks that are, you know, kind of were here for the long haul and were there at the beginning of CNCF and things along those lines, and they're like, "Oh yeah, everyone's adopted it," right? So you've got these two spectrums and I think my question to you is, what do you think is needed for this to really cross the chasm? >> Well, I'll actually answer that with another piece of data We do global research, and one of the things we found, we ask about, "What are your priorities for the next "couple of years?" and resoundingly across every persona, so developers, operators, IT decision makers, executives, their top three priorities for the next two years is continuous delivery. So let's think about that: continuous delivery for me is a priority; building that culture change is a priority; and so the tech is there to supplement that. But the real work, the hard work, is a priority, and I think that's exactly where it should be. So as these organizations really implement that continuous delivery methodology, they're going to pull these technologies in to supplement that. >> So it's not a technology problem, it's a people problem. But your point is, to the industry, let's be realistic and understand the segments that are adopting at what pace, matching education or evangelism or transformation at the right piece of the journey. >> Yeah, I mean all this tech, even Cloud Foundry, is a supplemental tool. >> Yeah. >> The hard work is really continuous delivery, building in that culture change, making software a core part of your business, making technology part of your day-to-day conversation, and that heavy lift has to come in order for any of these technologies to be successful. >> You guys have done a great job, I just want to say, Cloud Foundry, I want to give you some props. Congratulations on the work you've done. Take a minute to talk about some of the success. You're an ingredient in a lot of successful applications out there; what are some of the stats? How many people are using Cloud Foundry? What's some of the uptick, share some of the numbers of the performance with Cloud Foundry. >> Well, I mean we're in use of over half the Fortune 500 across every industry; what's been so phenomenal and so awesome about Cloud Foundry, and we really saw this at Summit, is all the industries that are using this to change. But what was interesting about our last summit, which we just had a couple of weeks ago, is all of these companies want to get on stage and not talk about the tech; they want to talk about the culture change. You know, hearing Boeing get on stage and say, "Actually, you know what the real work is "is the transformation we had to undergo "in order to do this work," and hear that over and over again, and it's so awesome to be part of that change because technology needs to be there to supplement that change and be part of that. But it's really great to see this come into fruition, like hearing the stories from Home Depot and Comcast and US Air Force and how it's fundamentally changing their businesses and helping them get out the door at scale, I mean that's really where the cool stuff happens. >> You've had great success there, and a lot of end users too, it's not like a bunch of one-offs. >> No. >> So how's the summit last week in Boston? >> It was amazing. We had half of our attendees at our summit are end users. And you know, the big high I get is like, hearing everyone talk about what they're doing and "This is what I did!" and stuff you've never heard of. Like, "Oh, I didn't realize you were using that," and "Oh, that's a really great way to use it "in very inventive ways," and so it really just refreshes you, like "Oh, this is what matters." The users and how they're using it and what they're going to do with the tech, I mean, isn't that why we're all here, right? And it's great, and they're creating such amazing technologies that it makes you energized about what's going on. >> Yeah, and I think it's amazing to me, cause I was actually at the Cloud Foundry summit as well, and there was one customer, I can't remember the name that got on stage, and they were using like, they had 2100 end users or something like that, developers, their company actually using Cloud Foundry, and I think that was the number, and I think it was really tremendous to see how many people inside of one company are actually using the technology across the board. It was really great. >> I mean, this is all about, I mean we're at a modern software era, and this is a whole new guard coming on board, and it's a whole new architecture. >> And it's a whole new way of thinking about it. Like, you know right now, we talk about how tech and there's a gap and we're pushing the tech and people are going to get there, but it's not going to be too long before the enterprises are pushing back and saying, "Hey, this is what I need, here's where I am, "I'm running at a scale you didn't think about yet." You know we're running, we have a lot of users that are running tens of thousands and thousands of applications: what about when they're in the hundreds of thousands of applications, and what does that look like? And they're saying, "Well I'm going to do this, "and here's what I need to do." >> There are going to be a lot of microservices. Abby, I got to ask you to end the segment. Thanks for coming on, I know you were rushed to come on, I appreciate you taking the time, you're super busy. What's your priorities for next year? Obviously you got a lot of successes under your belt. What's next, what are you going to check off the list this year? >> Well, inner operability is a big theme for me this year. And what does that mean, that means building bridges to other technologies and other projects, like the amazing work that's happening in CNCF and all those great technologies, so making sure that when those technologies mature, how do we bring those to the enterprise, and then really continuing to work on an ecosystem and work with our members and to really get more contributors around the table. >> Awesome, developers and contributors, dev plus contribute, thanks for coming on. >> My pleasure. >> Thanks Abby. >> You're contributing your insight and I know you've got the voice going, but appreciate you taking the time, so Kube conversations here at theCUBE here in Denmark for KubeCon 2018, part of CNCF. I'm John Furrier with Lauren Cooney, we'll be right back after this short break. (techno music)