>> Live from Seattle, Washington, it's theCUBE On the Ground! Covering KubeCon 2016! Brought to you by The Linux Foundation and Red Hat. Here's your host, John Furrier. >> Okay, we are here in Seattle for a special CUBE On the Ground coverage of CloudNativeCon and KubeCon really born out of the KubeCon last year, now called CloudNativeCon. Really great event, dynamic, lot of developers here. This is where the players are. It's really one of those events that's really special and we've been here all day getting ready to get kicked out of the room. The party's going to kick off at 7 o'clock. There's an election going on, the numbers are crazy. And of course we have the CEO of CoreOS, Alex Polvi, who's here, he's been on theCUBE many times. CoreOS, one of the main players in what is the biggest trend of the past few years that has really catapulted cloud and the developers together, certainly in the enterprise and the cloud as containers, and now Kubernetes, great to see you. >> Great to see you as well, John. >> You guys have been in the heart of the battle and part of the growth and the journey. It's been a battle, it's been fun. Do you have scar tissue? You guys have, with Docker's been out there, you guys have been there, you've been at war, you've been friends, just frenemies. And so in the spirit of growth, this is what's happening in the industry. But more than ever, now you're starting to see an acceleration. Acceleration with Kubernetes as a catalyst. Your thoughts on this trend, because now the container mojo is out there, people get it, they see the value. Now they go, okay, with Kubernetes, this brings you in a primitive at an abstraction that I can work with. How is that changing the game right now? >> I think we're going through the biggest transformation we've seen in infrastructure since cloud was invented. So you know, you have it on these cycles, and cloud, while Amazon has been going for, what, 10 years now, almost? >> Ten years, yeah. >> Right, and so, naturally, you'll see things emerge, and what's happening now is a you know this kind of new layer popping out. And containers and distributed systems are I believe are the next major area of infrastructure investment and beyond cloud itself. >> So talking about the open source community role here, because now you're starting to see the open source community get on this. We had Jim Walker who was on, who works on your team. Ex-Hortonworks guy, kind of knows the big data space, seen that movie before, commenting that most of the people born after 2000 don't even know what loading Linux on a machine is. So they're born cloud native. And so, this is a new dynamic that cloud gives more options for invention, a theme we're hearing here, solving these unknown problems, creating value. So whoever can give me the best speed boat to that wins, right? I mean this is what we're seeing. Your thoughts on the community's role in propelling and keeping in check, by the way, any potentially bad behavior. >> Sure, I think the open source community that we have around Kubernetes and kind of all the cloud native work, it's great for number reasons. One, we've, kind of through Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and kind of just, as conscious effort to have really a kind of a company neutral open source ecosystem has caused adoption of all this stuff. It's becoming like a Linux, or becoming I think OpenStack is actually did a pretty good job of this of creating a very vendor neutral ecosystem around it and we're doing it again around Kubernetes and the associated projects around it. One of the big things that's going on here is it is driven out of the spirit of technical excellence as well. These open source projects are the real deal, they're great pieces of software that are being built, so I think the combination of this community as well as software actually being a great piece of technology coming out of it is really going to propel it forward. >> We had Dan Kohn earlier, who's the executive director, he talked about the IETF and how that was shaped, some of the early internet standards with that some of the architectural decisions. There's no dogma. I mean, dogma kills communities. And they don't want that, so they're going to create a separation. There's always going to be dogma at some levels, conflict, but conflict and discourse is good in communities, at some level. What is that vision for the technical excellence now because it certainly is a race. Your thoughts there, and certainly we've seen this playbook when Docker has trying to go for that management orchestration layer. You guys have a strategy. People have to make money. Right, at some point, the playbooks have to change from being we just do some service and support. We have an open core, I'm going to try and do some, you know, mangling of licensing. Your thoughts on, how are people going to make money? >> Yeah, so, on this open community side of things, I have a crazy theory for you, and I think this one's a little bit further out there. >> That's okay, it's still, things are happening on the election night, I blew my mind, I thought Hillary was going to win by a landslide, go crazy. >> So Amazon is actually become both one of the biggest proponents of open source software. It's one of the places where you can get open source databases and open source Linux and all this stuff as easily as possible. At the same time, if you're an open source company, they're one of your biggest threats, 'cause you're worried that Amazon is just going to like, go build your service! I mean, look, we've seen it across every open source company that has any reasonable amount of traction, Amazon will just go build a service that competes with it. Now, the tricky thing with Amazon is all their APIs and management are very Amazon specific. And there aren't ways to get it in other ways. And we've kind of seen this game before, similar to how, there's Microsoft and Windows with Linux, I believe that Amazon might be kind of becoming this such a powerhouse and so dominated in this space that you're going to almost see an open source backlash around it and I can see Kubernetes being a key part of that in the same way that we talk about Kubernetes as a Linux for distributed system! It's, in a way, like an open cloud. It allows you to build these cloud services in a similar way that Amazon has these higher level services that work in any environment that are built around open standards, that encourage the use of just upstream open source projects. And so far, Amazon has not really been villainized at all, and I don't think they should be-- >> And they're not grandstanding, so I think they're kind of bunkering in. Just-- >> Going for it. >> Squirreling away all this-- >> Just keep it going! (laughs) Keep ripping! >> Why even say anything, you kicking ass! Put the heat shield up and just drive fast, right? >> I feel like at some point, the community is going to be like, wait a minute! We have so many eggs in this basket! >> Yeah, we're feeling fleeced! The numbers are out there! >> And it's a proprietary-- >> Well, first of all, Dave Vellante pointed out that their 25% reporting of was GAAP, and the non-GAPP numbers are even higher. So that's real profit, that's real EB dep. So they, are they giving it back to the community? That's your question. >> Well-- >> So I think the backlash is not only giving back to the community, but either wealth creation and ecosystem flourishing, but you're talking about software. >> And it's a cycle. People want something new to emerge, but at the same time, you don't all your eggs in one basket. So, you know, it's cycles. >> Well, I think your thing is plausible. Let's just go down and play out your crazy scenario. So, Linux, was started because of the mini computer. Proprietary naus-is, and the expensive hardware. So if Amazon becomes that version of that 800 pound gorilla that's similar to the mini computer, proprietary operating systems and gear... So it's a scenario. >> Not too wild! >> Okay, so what's next for you guys? Give us the update on CoreOS, what are you guys doing, what are the hot area, what are you guys doing, what's the update real quick? >> Sure, so, the last 3, 3 1/2 years, we've been shepherding along this whole space. Containers, distributed system, Kubernetes, Docker, Rocker, CoreOS Linux, like all sorts of stuff. We finally got the point where our initial kind of groundwork of the distributed platform is all in place and we can start using it. It's like we got IOS or Android to boot and now can start building apps. And last week, we released our first set of apps, I think really paint the vision of where these things are going. As this concept called operators, and it's where we're encoding kind of the operational side of like the things a human sysadmin would do to run a piece of open source software. We're encoding that into an application and it's called an operator, and it can do things like upgrade a cluster, or back it up, or scale it up and down. Same things operate-- >> Like an agent! >> Like an agent, exactly. And it's these management components that we think are going to give companies a ton of leverage to be able to run lots and lots-- >> So when do you guys ship this recently? >> Yeah, we shipped our first couple one for Etcd, and one for Prometheus last week. It's just they're new open source projects. >> So it's like getting a new car and taking it around the track, right? You guys are getting excited. >> Well, in a way, we're calling this kind of whole concept self driving infrastructure, just like you would have a operator sitting there, driving your car, we can now put software in there to kind of help take care of the stuff, the functionality that an operator would do to give-- >> Well, I think that's great, great strategy. We were just at IBM's World of Watson and as they change their event, from Insight to Watson, that's the big hype. Customers are responding to it. They love this cognitive AI'd vision of self driving infrastructure or stuff taking care of itself and focusing on value. I mean there's a lot of stuff in the weeds right now that seems to be automatable. >> Yeah, look, two weeks ago, we had two huge vulnerabilities come out, one on the Linux kernel and one on Kubernetes. And every ops team in the world had to drop what they were doing and go fix that, and they stopped making progress on their business and whatever thing they were trying to deliver and had to go deal with this fire. We can write programs to fix that stuff and we should! And it'll lead to a more efficient business, and it'll also lead to more secure web, in general, if those things just get patched and updated automatically. >> Yeah, that's great, that's a good point, and the DDoS attack with the IOT was even more pedestrian and worse than-- >> Same issue, it's the updates! Update your software, IOT, like, updates, updates fix it. >> Yeah, I think it was probably some eight year old saying ooh, let's just take down, ooh, they left their passwords open, let's just game in. I mean, that's how bad, how easy that hack was, I mean, and it still penetrates, so tons of work to get done to your build. Alex, thanks for coming on theCUBE here On the Ground. That's a wrap here for today, it was a long day. Great to see you, and congratulations on your success. I'm John Furrier. You're watching theCUBE here On the Ground here for KubeCon and CloudNativeCon, thanks for watching. (techno music)

>>Good evening, brilliant humans. My name is Savannah Peterson and very delighted to be streaming to you. Live from the Cube Studios here in Motor City, Michigan. I've got John Furrier on my left. John, this is our last interview of the day. Energy just seems to keep oozing. How >>You doing? Take two, Three days of coverage, the queue love segments. This one's great cuz we have a practitioner who's implementing all the hard core talks to be awesome. Can't wait to get into it. >>Yeah, I'm very excited for this one. If it's not very clear, we are a community focused community is a huge theme here at the show at Cape Con. And our next guests are actually a provider and a customer. Turning it over to you. Lisa and Jake, welcome to the show. >>Thank you so much for having us. >>It's great to be here. It is our pleasure. Lisa, you're with Cockroach. Just in case the audience isn't familiar, give us a quick little sound bite. >>We're a distributed sequel database. Highly scalable, reliable. The database you can't kill, right? We will survive the apocalypse. So very resilient. Our customers, mostly retail, FinTech game meet online gambling. They, they, they need that resiliency, they need that scalability. So the indestructible database is the elevator pitch >>And the success has been very well documented. Valuation obviously is a scorp guard, but huge customers. We were at the Escape 19. Just for the record, the first ever multi-cloud conference hasn't come back baby. Love it. It'll come back soon. >>Yeah, well we did a similar version of it just a month ago and I was, that was before Cockroach. I was a different company there talking a lot about multi-cloud. So, but I'm, I've been a car a couple of years now and I run community, I run developer relations. I'm still also a CNCF ambassador, so I lead community as well. I still run a really large user group in the San Francisco Bay area. So we've just >>Been in >>Community, take through the use case. Jake's story set us up. >>Well I would like Jake to take him through the use case and Cockroach is a part of it, but what they've built is amazing. And also Jake's history is amazing. So you can start Jake, >>Wherever you take >>Your Yeah, sure. I'm Jake, I'm CEO and co-founder of Offset. Oted is the commercial entity behind Spice Dvy and Spice Dvy is a permission service. Cool. So a permission service is something that lets developers and let's platform teams really unlock the full potential of their applications. So a lot of people get stuck on My R back isn't flexible enough. How do I do these fine grain things? How do I do these complex sharing workflows that my product manager thinks is so important? And so our service enables those platform teams and developers to do those kinds of things. >>What's your, what's your infrastructure? What's your setup look like? What, how are you guys looking like on the back end? >>Sure. Yeah. So we're obviously built on top of Kubernetes as well. One of the reasons that we're here. So we use Kubernetes, we use Kubernetes operators to orchestrate everything. And then we use, use Cockroach TV as our production data store, our production backend data store. >>So I'm curious, cause I love when these little matchmakers come together. You said you've now been presenting on a little bit of a road show, which is very exciting. Lisa, how are you and the team surfacing stories like Jakes, >>Well, I mean any, any place we can obviously all the social medias, all the blogs, How >>Are you finding it though? >>How, how did you Oh, like from our customers? Yeah, we have an open source version so people start to use us a long time before we even sometimes know about them. And then they'll come to us and they'll be like, I love Cockroach, and like, tell me about it. Like, tell me what you build and if it's interesting, you know, we'll we'll try to give it some light. And it's always interesting to me what people do with it because it's an interesting technology. I like what they've done with it. I mean the, the fact that it's globally distributed, right? That was like a really important thing to you. Totally. >>Yeah. We're also long term fans of Cockroach, so we actually all work together out of Workbench, which was a co-working space and investor in New York City. So yeah, we go way back. We knew the founders. I, I'm constantly saying like if I could have invested early in cockroach, that would've been the easiest check I could have ever signed. >>Yeah, that's awesome. And then we've been following that too and you guys are now using them, but folks that are out there looking to have the, the same challenges, what are the big challenges on selecting the database? I mean, as you know, the history of Cockroach and you're originating the story, folks out there might not know and they're also gonna choose a database. What's the, what's the big challenge that they can solve that that kind of comes together? What, what would you describe that? >>Sure. So we're, as I said, we're a permission service and per the data that you store in a permission service is incredibly sensitive. You need it to be around, right? You need it to be available. If the permission service goes down, almost everything else goes down because it's all calling into the permission service. Is this user allowed to do this? Are they allowed to do that? And if we can't answer those questions, then our customer is down, right? So when we're looking at a database, we're looking for reliability, we're looking for durability, disaster recovery, and then permission services are one of the only services that you usually don't shard geographically. So if you look at like AWS's iam, that's a global service, even though the individual things that they run are actually sharded by region. So we also needed a globally distributed database with all of those other properties. So that's what led us >>To, this is a huge topic. So man, we've been talking about all week the cloud is essentially distributed database at this point and it's distributed system. So distributed database is a hot topic, totally not really well reported. A lot of people talking about it, but how would you describe this distributed trend that's going on? What are the key reasons that they're driving it? What's making this more important than ever in your mind, in your opinion? >>I mean, for our use case, it was just a hard requirement, right? We had to be able to have this global service. But I think just for general use cases, a distributed database, distributed database has that like shared nothing architecture that allows you to kind of keep it running and horizontally scale it. And as your requirements and as your applications needs change, you can just keep adding on capacity and keep adding on reliability and availability. >>I'd love to get both of your opinion. You've been talking about the, the, the, the phases of customers, the advanced got Kubernetes going crazy distributed, super alpha geek. Then you got the, the people who are building now, then you got the lagers who are coming online. Where do you guys see the market now in terms of, I know the Alphas are all building all the great stuff and you guys had great success with all the top logos and they're all doing hardcore stuff. As the mainstream enterprise comes in, where's their psychology, what's on their mind? What's, you share any insight into your perspective on that? Because we're seeing a lot more of it folks becoming like real cloud players. >>Yeah, I feel like in mainstream enterprise hasn't been lagging as much as people think. You know, certainly there's been pockets in big enterprises that have been looking at this and as distributed sequel, it gives you that scalability that it's absolutely essential for big enterprises. But also it gives you the, the multi-region, you know, the, you have to be globally distributed. And for us, for enterprises, you know, you need your data near where the users are. I know this is hugely important to you as well. So you have to be able to have a multi-region functionality and that's one thing that distributed SQL lets you build and that what we built into our product. And I know that's one of the things you like too. >>Yeah, well we're a brand new product. I mean we only founded the company two years ago, but we're actually getting inbound interest from big enterprises because we solve the kinds of challenges that they have and whether, I mean, most of them already do have a cockroach footprint, but whether they did or didn't, once they need to bring in our product, they're going to be adopting cockroach transitively anyway. >>So, So you're built on top of Cockroach, right? And Spice dv, is that open source or? >>It >>Is, yep. Okay. And explain the role of open source and your business model. Can you take a minute to talk about the relevance of that? >>Yeah, open source is key. My background is, before this I was at Red Hat. Before that we were at CoreOS, so CoreOS acquisition and before that, >>One of the best acquisitions that ever happened for the value. That was a great, great team. Yeah, >>We, we, we had fun and before that we built Qua. So my co-founders and I, we built Quay, which is a, a first private docker registry. So CoreOS and, and all of those things are all open source or deeply open source. So it's just in our dna. We also see it as part of our go-to market motion. So if you are a database, a lot of people won't even consider what you're doing without being open source. Cuz they say, I don't want to take a, I don't want to, I don't want to end up in an Oracle situation >>Again. Yeah, Oracle meaning they go, you get you locked in, get you in a headlock, Increase prices. >>Yeah. Oh yeah, >>Can, can >>I got triggered. >>You need to talk about your PTSD there >>Or what. >>I mean we have 20,000 stars on GitHub because we've been open and transparent from the beginning. >>Yeah. And it >>Well, and both of your projects were started based on Google Papers, >>Right? >>That is true. Yep. And that's actually, so we're based off of the Google Zans of our paper. And as you know, Cockroach is based off of the Google Span paper and in the the Zanzibar paper, they have this globally distributed database that they're built on top of. And so when I said we're gonna go and we're gonna make a company around the Zabar paper, people would go, Well, what are you gonna do for Span? And I was like, Easy cockroach, they've got us covered. >>Yeah, I know the guys and my friends. Yeah. So the question is why didn't you get into the first round of Cockroach? She said don't answer that. >>The question he did answer though was one of those age old arguments in our community about pronunciation. We used to argue about Quay, I always called it Key of course. And the co-founder obviously knows how it's pronounced, you know, it's the et cd argument, it's the co cuddl versus the control versus coo, CTL Quay from the co-founder. That is end of argument. You heard it here first >>And we're keeping it going with Osted. So awesome. A lot of people will say Zeed or, you know, so we, we just like to have a little ambiguity >>In the, you gotta have some semantic arguments, arm wrestling here. I mean, it keeps, it keeps everyone entertained, especially on the over the weekend. What's, what's next? You got obviously Kubernetes in there. Can you explain the relationship between Kubernetes, how you're handling Spice dv? What, what does the Kubernetes piece fit in and where, where is that going to be going? >>Yeah, great question. Our flagship product right now is a dedicated, and in a dedicated, what we're doing is we're spinning up a single tenant Kubernetes cluster. We're installing all of our operator suite, and then we're installing the application and running it in a single tenant fashion for our customers in the same region, in the same data center where they're running their applications to minimize latency. Because of this, as an authorization service, latency gets passed on directly to the end user. So everybody's trying to squeeze the latency down as far as they can. And our strategy is to just run these single tenant stacks for people with the minimal latency that we can and give them a VPC dedicated link very similar to what Cockroach does in their dedicated >>Product. And the distributed architecture makes that possible because it's lighter way, it's not as heavy. Is that one of the reasons? >>Yep. And Kubernetes really gives us sort of like a, a level playing field where we can say, we're going going to take the provider, the cloud providers Kubernetes offering, normalize it, lay down our operators, and then use that as the base for delivering >>Our application. You know, Jake, you made me think of something I wanted to bring up with other guests, but now since you're here, you're an expert, I wanna bring that up, but talk about Super Cloud. We, we coined that term, but it's kind of multi-cloud, is that having workloads on multiple clouds is hard. I mean there are, they are, there are workloads on, on clouds, but the complexity of one clouds, let's take aws, they got availability zones, they got regions, you got now data issues in each one being global, not that easy on one cloud, nevermind all clouds. Can you share your thoughts on how you see that progression? Because when you start getting, as its distributed database, a lot of good things might come up that could fit into solving the complexity of global workloads. Could you share your thoughts on or scoping that problem space of, of geography? Yeah, because you mentioned latency, like that's huge. What are some of the other challenges that other people have with mobile? >>Yeah, absolutely. When you have a service like ours where the data is small, but very critical, you can get a vendor like Cockroach to step in and to fill that gap and to give you that globally distributed database that you can call into and retrieve the data. I think the trickier issues come up when you have larger data, you have huge binary blobs. So back when we were doing Quay, we wanted to be a global service as well, but we had, you know, terabytes, petabytes of data that we were like, how do we get this replicated everywhere and not go broke? Yeah. So I think those are kind of the interesting issues moving forward is what do you do with like those huge data lakes, the huge amount of data, but for the, the smaller bits, like the things that we can keep in a relational database. Yeah, we're, we're happy that that's quickly becoming a solved >>Problem. And by the way, that that data problem also is compounded when the architecture goes to the edge. >>Totally. >>I mean this is a big issue. >>Exactly. Yeah. Edge is something that we're thinking a lot about too. Yeah, we're lucky that right now the applications that are consuming us are in a data center already. But as they start to move to the edge, we're going to have to move to the edge with them. And it's a story that we're gonna have to figure out. >>All right, so you're a customer cockroach, what's the testimonial if I put you on the spot, say, hey, what's it like working with these guys? You know, what, what's the, what's the, you know, the founders, so you know, you give a good description, little biased, but we'll, we'll we'll hold you on it. >>Yeah. Working with Cockroach has been great. We've had a couple things that we've run into along the way and we've gotten great support from our account managers. They've brought in the right technical expertise when we need it. Cuz what we're doing with Cockroach is not you, you couldn't do it on Postgres, right? So it's not just a simple rip and replace for us, we're using all of the features of Cockroach, right? We're doing as of system time queries, we're doing global replication. We're, you know, we're, we're consuming it all. And so we do need help from them sometimes and they've been great. Yeah. >>And that's natural as they grow their service. I mean the world's changing. >>Well I think one of the important points that you mentioned with multi-cloud, we want you to have the choice. You know, you can run it in in clouds, you can run it hybrid, you can run it OnPrem, you can do whatever you want and it's just, it's one application that you can run in these different data centers. And so really it's up to you how do you want to build your infrastructure? >>And one of the things we've been talking about, the super cloud concept that we've been issue getting a lot of contrary, but, but people are leaning into it is that it's the refactoring and taking advantage of the services. Like what you mentioned about cockroach. People are doing that now on cloud going the lift and shift market kind of had it time now it's like hey, I can start taking advantage of these higher level services or capability of someone else's stack and refactoring it. So I think that's a dynamic that I'm seeing a lot more of. And it sounds like it's working out great in this situation. >>I just came from a talk and I asked them, you know, what don't you wanna put in the cloud and what don't you wanna run in Kubernetes or on containers and good Yeah. And the customers that I was on stage with, one of the guys made a joke and he said I would put my dog in a container room. I could, he was like in the category, which is his right, which he is in the category of like, I'll put everything in containers and these are, you know, including like mis critical apps, heritage apps, since they don't wanna see legacy anymore. Heritage apps, these are huge enterprises and they wanna put everything in the cloud. Everything >>You so want your dog that gets stuck on the airplane when it's on the tarmac. >>Oh >>God, that's, she was the, don't take that analogy. Literally don't think about that. Well that's, >>That's let's not containerize. >>There's always supply chain concern. >>It. So I mean going macro and especially given where we are cncf, it's all about open source. Do y'all think that open source builds a better future? >>Yeah and a better past. I mean this is, so much of this software is founded on open source. I, we wouldn't be here really. I've been in open source community for many, many years so I wouldn't say I'm biased. I would say this is how we build software. I came from like in a high school we're all like, oh let's build a really cool application. Oh you know what? I built this cuz I needed it, but maybe somebody else needs it too. And you put it out there and that is the ethos of Silicon Valley, right? That's where we grew up. So I've always had that mindset, you know, and social coding and why I have three people, right? Working on the same thing when one person you could share it's so inefficient. All of that. Yeah. So I think it's great that people work on what they're really good at. You know, we all, now you need some standardization, you need some kind of control around this whole thing. Sometimes some foundations to, you know, herd the cats. Yeah. But it's, it's great. Which is why I'm a c CF ambassador and I spend a lot of time, you know, in my free time talking about open source. Yeah, yeah. >>It's clear how passionate you are about it. Jake, >>This is my second company that we founded now and I don't think either of them could have existed without the base of open source, right? Like when you look at I have this cool idea for an app or a company and I want to go try it out, the last thing I want to do is go and negotiate with a vendor to get like the core data component. Yeah. To even be able to get to the >>Prototypes. NK too, by the way. Yeah. >>Hey >>Nk >>Or hire, you know, a bunch of PhDs to go and build that core component for me. So yeah, I mean nobody can argue that >>It truly is, I gotta say a best time if you're a developer right now, it's awesome to be a developer right now. It's only gonna get better. As we were riff from the last session about productivity, we believe that if you follow the digital transformation to its conclusion, developers and it aren't a department serving the business, they are the business. And that means they're running the show, which means that now their entire workflow is gonna change. It's gonna be have to be leveraging services partnering. So yeah, open source just fills that. So the more code coming up, it's just no doubt in our mind that that's go, that's happening and will accelerate. So yeah, >>You know, no one company is gonna be able to compete with a community. 50,000 users contributing versus you riding it yourself in your garage with >>Your dogs. Well it's people driven too. It's humans not container. It's humans working together. And here you'll see, I won't say horse training, that's a bad term, but like as projects start to get traction, hey, why don't we come together as, as the world starts to settle and the projects have traction, you start to see visibility into use cases, functionality. Some projects might not be, they have to kind of see more kind >>Of, not every feature is gonna be development. Oh. So I mean, you know, this is why you connect with truly brilliant people who can architect and distribute sequel database. Like who thought of that? It's amazing. It's as, as our friend >>You say, Well let me ask you a question before we wrap up, both by time, what is the secret of Kubernetes success? What made Kubernetes specifically successful? Was it timing? Was it the, the unambitious nature of it, the unification of it? Was it, what was the reason why is Kubernetes successful, right? And why nothing else? >>Well, you know what I'm gonna say? So I'm gonna let Dave >>First don't Jake, you go first. >>Oh boy. If we look at what was happening when Kubernetes first came out, it was, Mesosphere was kind of like the, the big player in the space. I think Kubernetes really, it had the backing from the right companies. It had the, you know, it had the credibility, it was sort of loosely based on Borg, but with the story of like, we've fixed everything that was broken in Borg. Yeah. And it's better now. Yeah. So I think it was just kind and, and obviously people were looking for a solution to this problem as they were going through their containerization journey. And I, yeah, I think it was just right >>Place, the timing consensus of hey, if we just let this happen, something good might come together for everybody. That's the way I felt. I >>Think it was right place, right time, right solution. And then it just kind of exploded when we were at Cores. Alex Povi, our ceo, he heard about Kubernetes and he was like, you know, we, we had a thing called Fleet D or we had a tool called Fleet. And he's like, Nope, we're all in on Kubernetes now. And that was an amazing Yeah, >>I remember that interview. >>I, amazing decision. >>Yeah, >>It's clear we can feel the shift. It's something that's come up a lot this week is is the commitment. Everybody's all in. People are ready for their transformation and Kubernetes is definitely gonna be the orchestrator that we're >>Leveraging. Yeah. And it's an amazing community. But it was, we got lucky that the, the foundational technology, I mean, you know, coming out of Google based on Go conferences, based on Go, it's no to coincidence that this sort of nature of, you know, pods horizontally, scalable, it's all fits together. I does make sense. Yeah. I mean, no offense to Python and some of the other technologies that were built in other languages, but Go is an awesome language. It's so, so innovative. Innovative things you could do with it. >>Awesome. Oh definitely. Jake, I'm very curious since we learned on the way and you are a Detroit native? >>I am. Yep. I grew up in the in Warren, which is just a suburb right outside of Detroit. >>So what does it mean to you as a Michigan born bloke to be here, see your entire community invade? >>It is, I grew up coming to the Detroit Auto Show in this very room >>That brought me to Detroit the first time. Love n a I a s. Been there with our friends at Ford just behind us. >>And it's just so interesting to me to see the accumulation, the accumulation of tech coming to Detroit cuz it's really not something that historically has been a huge presence. And I just love it. I love to see the activity out on the streets. I love to see all the restaurants and coffee shops full of people. Just, I might tear up. >>Well, I was wondering if it would give you a little bit of that hometown pride and also the joy of bringing your community together. I mean, this is merging your two probably most core communities. Yeah, >>Yeah. Your >>Youth and your, and your career. It doesn't get more personal than that really. Right. >>It's just been, it's been really exciting to see the energy. >>Well thanks for going on the queue. Thanks for sharing. Appreciate it. Thanks >>For having us. Yeah, thank you both so much. Lisa, you were a joy of ball of energy right when you walked up. Jake, what a compelling story. Really appreciate you sharing it with us. John, thanks for the banter and the fabulous questions. I'm >>Glad I could help out. >>Yeah, you do. A lot more than help out sweetheart. And to all of you watching the Cube today, thank you so much for joining us live from Detroit, the Cube Studios. My name is Savannah Peterson and we'll see you for our event wrap up next.

(upbeat music) >> Hello, welcome to theCUBE's coverage of AnsibleFest 2021 virtual; I'm John Furrier, your host of theCUBE. We've got a great power panel here from Kyndryl whose great company has spun out of IBM. IT services great, technology, great conversation. Scott Kinane, director of worldwide automation, Anand Gopalakrishnan, chief automation architect, love the title, from Kyndryl, and Lisa Chavez, automations architect from Kyndryl. Guys, thanks for coming on. Appreciate the conversation. Looking forward to it. >> Thanks John glad to be here. >> Thank you. >> Scott, we covered you guys at IBM Think 2021, the new name, everything's happening. The extreme focus, the tactical execution has been pretty much on cloud, cloud native automation. This is the conversation. Knowing how much has gone behind the new name, can you just take a minute to share, give us an update on who Kyndryl is and how that's going? >> Yeah, I'd love to. You know, as Kyndryl, we really have the privilege of being responsible for designing, building, managing, and modernizing, you know, the mission critical systems that the world depends on every day, you know? When our thousands of clients span every industry and are leaders in their industries, right? You run the mission critical application environments for, you know, seven of the 10 largest airlines, 28 of the top 50 banks, right? All the largest mobile providers. You know, most of the largest retailers out there, and so on and so forth, right? That these companies really trust us to ensure that their business operations are really flawlessly being run. And operating our scale, and with the quality that these clients demand, is only possible by doing enterprise strength automation. Right? It's only, you know, it's not only about reactive automation, but using intelligent automation so we can predict and prevent issues before they really become a problem. Right? And because of our intelligent approach to automation, our clients have a... you know, they get tremendous business benefits for it, right? Retailers can open stores faster because systems and services are deployed more efficiently, right? Banks ATM's right, we all depend on those day to day, you know. They're working when you need them with our automation behind the scenes. You know, healthcare systems are more robust and responsive because we monitor for potential breaks and prevent them before they occur, right. Data processing systems, right. We hear about breaches all the time, right? Our clients are more secure because their environments are checked into, are checked to ensure that security exposures are quickly discovered and intermediated, right? So like automation, orchestration, intelligence, driving the world's digital economy, right. If you ask what Kyndryl is it, you know, that's our DNA. And it's really what we do well. >> Yeah, what's interesting, I want to get you to just quick followup on that because the name implies kind of a fresh perspective, working together. There's a lot of shared experiences and that. And the new normal now is honestly with hybrid and virtual continuing, people are doing things differently. And I would like you, if you don't mind taking a minute to share about the automation environment that you guys are operating in, because it's a different approach, but the game is still the same. Right? (John and Scott laugh) You got to make sure that these things are scaling and people are working again. So it's a combination of people and technology, in a new equation. Take a minute to talk about that. >> Yeah, I'd love to. You know, and you're right, right; the game is really changing. And automation is really ingrained into, needs to be ingrained in the way everybody's approaching what they do day to day. And if you talk about automation, in a way it's really included in what we do in our BAU delivery operations, right. And we do it at a tremendous scale, right. Where we have, you know, millions of infrastructure components and applications managed with automation, right. We're going to talk a little bit about CACF here in a few minutes, right? We've got over half a million devices themselves boarded onto that, and we're running over 11 million automations on a month to month basis through that, through the, the Red Hat technology that that's built on, right. We've got RPA as a key part of our environment, running millions of transactions through that on a yearly basis, right. And our automation's really covering the entire stack, right? It's not just about traditional IT, but we cover public cloud, private cloud, hybrid, you know, network components, applications and business processes, right? You talked about people, right. Help desk, right. We cover automation to automate a lot of the help desk processes are happening behind the scenes; security and resiliency. And it's really about driving all that through, you know, not just prescriptive reactions, but you know, us using our experience; insights we have from our data lakes, and intel, and AI ops technologies, and really making proactive based decisions based on that to really help drive the value back for our clients and to ensure that they're operating the way they need to. >> Yeah, that systems mindset, outcome driven focus is unique. That's awesome, congratulations. And onto Lisa, we're going to get into the architect side of it, because you're seeing more and more automation at the center of all the conversation. Reminds me of the machine learning AI vibe a couple of years ago. It's like, oh yeah, everything's MLAI. Automation, now everything's automation. Anand, your title is chief automation architect, love that title. What do you do? Like, I mean, you're architecting more automation, are you? Could you take a minute to explain your role? I love the title. And automation is really the technology driving a lot of the change. What do you do? >> Thank you, John. So let me first thank you for allowing us to come and speak to you and inform here about what we have done using Ansible and the other Red Hat products. So Ansible is one of the many products that we have used within Red Hat to support the solution that we have deployed, Paul, as our automation community framework, right? So, Scott touched upon it a few minutes earlier in terms of what are we doing for our clients? How do we make sure that our client's environment is secure? How do we make sure that our client environment is available all the time? So that... Are the infrastructure services that we're providing for our clients has a direct impact for their clients. So this is where the implementation of automation using the products that we have from Red Hat has helped us achieve. And we'll continue, we will continue to expand on supporting that, right. So let me break this into two parts. One is from an infrastructure standpoint, how we have implemented the solution and scaled it in such a way that we can support the number of devices that Scott was referring to earlier, And also the number of clients that we have touched on. And the second part, I'll let my colleague Lisa talk about the application architecture and the application scalability that we have, right? So firstly, we touch on infrastructure. So if you look at the way we needed to establish a capability to provide support for our clients, we wanted to make sure our infrastructure is available all the time, right? That's very important. So, before we even basically say, hey, we're going to make sure that our client's infrastructure is available all the time or our client's infrastructure is secure. And also we provide, we are able to provide the automation services for the infrastructure service that we're providing, right? So the stack that we built was to support our solution to be truly cloud native. So we began with of course, using OCP, which is the OpenShift cloud platform that we have. We relied on Red Hat CoreOS, which is basically enabling the automation platform to be deployed as a true cloud native application; that can be scalable to not just within one country, but multiple countries. Supporting data privacy that we need to have, supporting the compliance parts of that we need to support, and scalable to support the half a billion devices that we are supporting today. Right? So essentially, if you look at what we have, is a capability enabled on the entire stack of the Red Hat products that we have. And we are able to focus on ensuring that we are able to provide the automation by gaining efficiencies, right? If you look at a lot of automations that we have it's about biggest in complexities, right? So just think about the amount of risk that we are removing, and the quality that we are assuring from the qualified and standardized changes that we are basically implementing. Or, just, the amount of risk that we are able to eliminate by removing thousands of manual labor hours as well. So if you look at the automation need, it's not just about efficiency of the removal of labor hours, but efficiency of providing standards and efficiency of providing the capabilities that support our clients, who their needs; i.e. making sure that their infrastructure is compliant, their infrastructure is secure, and their infrastructure is highly available all the time. So it just basically making sure that we are able to address what we call as day one and day two activities, while we are able to support their day two infrastructure services activities; i.e. right from ground up. Building the server, which is provisioning, doing some provisioning activities, and deploying applications, and basically supporting the applications once they are deployed. So look at the scale, we have quite a bit there. >> So, you got the cloud native platform... >> Hey, careful Anand... >> You've got the cloud native platform, right? Let me just summarize that; cloud native platform for scale. So that means you're aligning, and targeting, and working with people who will want to do cloud native applications. >> Absolutely. >> And they want fast speed. (John laughing) >> Yes, and they want... >> They want everything to go faster. And by the way, the compliance piece is super important because if you can take that away from them, for waiting for the answers from the compliance department or security department, then that's the flywheel. Is that what you're getting at? This is the trend? >> Absolutely. So I'm going to turn it over to Lisa, who's going to help us. >> Yeah >> Go ahead Lisa >> Lisa, weigh in on the flywheel here. (Lisa chuckles) >> Yeah. Sure, sure. Yeah. So, so one of the things that CACF allows us to do, right, and it's again, as Anand described, `it's a very robust, powerful infrastructure. Supports many, many clients as we run a lot of applications through this infrastructure. And we do things like run security health checks on all our client's servers, and process the data real time and get that data out to our teams to address issues almost immediately, right? Scott touched on the fact that we are monitoring incident data real time and taking automated actions to correct problems in the environment. These are just really, really powerful capabilities that we're able to offer. We also have other use cases, we do a lot of identity management, primary and secondary controls through the CACF infrastructure. So we're able to have one point of connectivity into our client's environments. It's agentless, right, so you set up one connection to their servers and we can do a whole lot of management of various things through this single automation platform. So... >> So I, so that just to call this up, this is actually very powerful. And first of all, you mentioned the CACF that's the cloud automation community framework. >> Yes, correct. >> Right. >> Okay, so that's the platform. (Lisa chuckles) >> Yes >> Okay, so now the platforms' there; and now talk about the advantages. Because the power here is this truly highlights the transformation of DevOps, infrastructure as code, and microservices, coming around the corner where the developer; And I know developers want to build security into the applications from day one and take advantage of new services as they come online. That is now one. That puts the pressure on the old IT teams, the old security teams, who have been the NoOps. No, you can't do or slow, are slower. This is a trend, this is actually happening. And this culture shift is happening. Could you guys weigh in on that because this is a really important part of this story. >> Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, if you go back, circa 2019 or so, right. You know, we were back then and we were recognized as a leader in the automation space by a lot of the analysts. But we kind of look at that culture change you were just talking about and look at, you know, how do we become more agile? How do we go faster and what we're doing, right. And then I'm working with Jason McKerr and the Red Hat's Ansible automation platform team. We kind of define this platform that Lisa and Anand are talking to, right. Wrapping together, the OpenShift and Ansible, and 3scale with, you know, our services platform with Watson, and, and, you know, it really gave us the ability to leverage two of our core capabilities, right? The first, you know, in order for us to go faster, was our community model, right? Our community experience, right? So we've got a large delivery community that's out there really experts in a lot of, experts in a lot of technologies and industries. And, and by putting this in place, it gave us a way to really leverage them more in that community model development, so they could create, and we can harvest more of the automation playbooks. A lot of the different use cases that Lisa was talking incident remediation, patch scanning and deployment, security compliance, checking and enforcement. You know, basically anything that needs to get done as part of our what we'd call day one or day two operations we do for a client, right. And Steve's approach really to, to do a lot of high quality automation and get to the point where we could get thousands of automation modules that our clients could, that we could use as a part of our, a part of our services we delivered to the client environments. And, you know, that type of speed and agility, and being able to kind of leverage that was something that wasn't there previously. It also gave us a way to leverage, I guess they are one of our other core capabilities, right; which is a systems integrator, right? So we were able to focus more, by having that core engine in place, we were able to form focus more on our integrator experience and integrate, you know, IBM technologies, ServiceNow, ScienceLogic, VMware, and many more, right to the engine itself. So you know, basically, you know, all the applications out there that the, the clients then depend on for their business environments integrate directly with them; so we could more seamlessly bring the automation to their, to their environments, right. So it really gave us both the, the ability to change our culture, have a community model in place that we didn't before and really leveraged that services integrator expertise that we bring to the table, and act really fast on behalf of our clients out there. >> That's great stuff. Lisa, Lisa if you don't mind, could you share your thoughts on what's different about the community platform, and because automation has been around for a while, you do a couple of times, you do something repetitive, you automate it. Automate it out of way, and that's efficiency. Anand was the one saying that. >> Yeah but within Kyndryl, we have a very strong community and we have very strong security guidelines around what the community produces and what we deliver to our clients, right? So, we give our teams a lot of flexibility, but we also make sure that the content is very secure; we do a lot of testing. We have very strong security teams that do actual physical, penetration testing, right. They actually could try and come in and break things. So, you know, we really feel good about, you know, not only do we give our teams the flexibility, but we also, you know, make sure that it's safe for our clients. >> How's the relationship with Ansible evolving? Because as Ansible continues to do well with automation; automations now, like in automation as code, if things are discoverable, reuse is a big topic in the community model. How is Ansible factoring into your success? >> So... So firstly, I want to break this again into two discussions, right? One is the product itself. And second is how we have collaborated very closely with our colleagues at Red Hat, right? So essentially it's the feedback that we get from our clients, which is then fed into our solution, and then from our solution, we basically say, does it meet what our client's requirements are? If it doesn't, then we work with our Red Hat colleagues and say, hey, you know, we need some enhancements to be made. And we've been, we've been lucky enough to work with our colleagues at Red Hat, very closely, where we have been able to make some core product changes to support our clients requirements, right. And that's very, very important in terms of the collaboration from, with Red Hat, from a, you know, from a client standpoint. That's number one. Number two, from a product standpoint, Ansible, and the use of Ansible itself, right? Or Ansible Tower as the automation hub that we've been using. So we began this with a very base product capability, which was through what we call event automation. That was our first. Then we said, no, I think we can certainly look at expanding this to beyond event automation. I.e. can we do, when we say event that is very typically BAU activities, day two activities. But then we said, can we, can we do day one, day two infrastructure services automation? We said yes, why not? And then we worked again with our colleagues at Red Hat, identifying opportunities to improve on those. And we basically enhanced the framework to support those additional use cases that we basically identified. And as a matter of fact, we are continually looking at improving as well. In terms of not just hey, using the base product as is, but also receiving that feedback, giving that feedback to our Red Hat colleagues, and then implementing it as we go. So that's the, that's the approach we have taken. >> And what's the other half of the subject? Split it in two, What's the other half? >> Yep. But the other half is the actual implementation itself. So we like, which is basically expanding the use cases to go from beyond event automation to back from building the server, to also patching compliance. And now we're actually looking at even what we call service requests automation. By this is we basically want to be able to say hey user, we want a specific action to be performed on a particular end point. Can we take it to that next level as well? So that's where we are basically looking at as we progress. So we're not done. I would say we're still at the beginning of expansion. >> Yeah. >> Well no, I totally agree. I think it's early days, and I think a lot of it's, you mentioned day two operations; I love that. Day zero, day one, day two. Does anyone want to take a stab at defining what day two operations is? (John laughing) >> Do you want to go? >> Well, I got the experts here. It's good to get the definitions out there. >> Absolutely. >> 'Cause day one you're provisioned, right? >> Day zero, you provision. >> Day zero you provision. >> So day zero they look at... Yeah, so day zero you look at what is the infrastructure, what's the hardware that's there. And then day one you do what we call post provisioning activities, configuring everything that we need to do, like deploying the middleware applications, making sure the applications are configured properly, making sure that our, you know, the operating systems that we need to have. Whether it is a base operating system or operating systems for supporting the containers that are basically going to be enabled, all those will need to be looked at, right? So that's day one. Then day two is business as usual. >> Everything breaks on day two. (everyone laughs) >> Although I... >> Day one's fun, everything's good, we got everything up and running. We stood it up, and day two it breaks; And like, you know it's his fault. >> Exactly. >> Who's fault is it? (everyone laughing) So if you look at the approach that we took was, we said, let's start with the day two, then get to day zero, right. So which time where we have lots of lessons learned as we go through. And that's the expansion of how we are looking at Ansible. >> Well this is, all fun aside. First of all, it's all fun to have, to have to have jokes like that; but the reality is that the hardened operational discipline required to go beyond day one is critical, right? So this is where we start getting into the ops side where security downtime, disruptive operations, it's got to be programmable. And by the way, automation is in there too. So which means that it's not humans it's software running. Right? So, edge is going to complicate the hell out of that too. So, day two becomes super important from an architecture standpoint. You guys are the architects; what's the strategy, what should people be doing? What, what, how should, because day one is fun. You get it up, stand it up. But then it starts getting benefit; people start paying attention. >> Yep. _ And then you need to scale it and harden it. What's the strategy? What should people do? >> Yeah. I mean, if you think about automation, right? It's not... oh, I should, I meant to say John, you know, if it breaks, it's always Anand's fault, always Anand's. (John, Lisa, and Anand laugh) Don't ask any of that. >> I agree. >> Exactly. Thank you, Lisa. (everyone laughing) But, but automate, you know, you know, automation in a lot of conversations, people talk about it as gaining efficiency. And you know, it's not just that, you know, Automation is about de-risking complexities. Right? Think about all the risk that's removed, you know, and quality assured from the codified and standardized changes, right. Think about all the risk removed from eliminating, you know, tens of thousands of manual labor hours that have to be done. And those various things, right, that get done. So, for, we talk about day two operations, what we're doing, getting more automation in there, you know, our focus is definitely how do we de-risk changes? How do we make it safer for the clients? How do we make it more secure for the clients? And how do we ensure that their business operations, you know, are operating at their peak efficiencies? >> Yeah. And as I mentioned, we really go above and beyond on the security. We have much, much, much automated testing. And we also have the penetration testing I was talking about, so. We take security very seriously. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I think what's interesting about what you guys are doing with the platform is, it's cloud native. You start to see not just the replatforming, but the fun parts. When you start thinking about refactoring applications and benefits start to come out of nowhere; I go new benefits, new net, new use cases. So I think the outcomes side of this is interesting. A lot of people talk about, okay let's focus on the cost, but there's now net new positive, potentially revenue impact for your customers. This is kind of where the game changes a lot. What do you guys think about that; 'cuz that's, you know, you always have this argument with folks who are very cost centric, repatriated for getting off the cloud, or let's look at the net new opportunities that are going to be enabled by rapid programming, identifying new workflows, automating them, and creating value. >> Yeah. I mean, this is, you know, you're talking about the future where we're going, things that we do, you know, obviously getting more closer to, and being directly aligned with the DevSecOps teams that are out there. You talk about day two, you know, the closer we are to those guys, the better for, for us and everybody else that's going there, going forward. You know, and as you know, businesses keep returning to their pre COVID level levels, you know, automation gives the possibility and that ones that we were doing gives possibility for hopefully the clients to do more of that revenue capture, right. Being able to, you know, be ahead a little bit earlier, being able to stand up retail stores faster, right. Being able to deploy business-based applications that are, generating revenue for the clients at a you know, you know, at a moment's notice. Things like that are really possible with automation, and possible with the way we've done this solution with Red Hat and our clients, right. And I think we've got tons of benefits there. We're seeing, you know, we've got almost 900 clients supported on it today, right. You know Anand hit on, we've got half a million plus devices that are connected to this, right. And we're seeing things where, you know, the clients are, are, that are on this are, are getting results, you know, Something such as 61% of all tickets being resolved with no human intervention, you know, 84% of their entire service base server base is being checked automatically for security and compliance daily. And, and, you know, we could go through lots of those different metrics, but the, you know, the fact we can do that for our clients gives, gives through automation, gives, you know, our engineers, our delivery community, the ability to closely more closely work with the client to do those revenue generation activities; to help them capture more, more revenue in the market. >> We'll just put that in context, the scale and speed of what's happening with those numbers; I mean, it's significant. It's not like it's a small little test. That's like large scale. Scale's the advantage of cloud. Cloud is a scale game. The advantage is scaling and handling that scale. What's your thoughts? >> Absolutely. So if you basically, again, when we started this, we started small, right. In terms of the use cases that we wanted to tackle, the number of devices that we said we could basically handle, right. But then once we saw the benefits, the initial benefits of how quickly we were able to fix some of the problems from a day one day, two standpoint; or address some of the compliance and patching issues that we needed to look at, right. We, we quickly saw opportunities and said, how fast can we go? And in terms of, well, it's not just how fast can we go in terms of setting up our own infrastructure by you know, saying, hey, we are cloud native. I can just spin up another container and, you know, make sure that I can have another a hundred servers onboarded to support, or a hundred that network devices to be onboarded to support and so on, right. So it was also the scale from a automation standpoint, where we needed to make sure that our resources were skilled, to develop the automations as well. So the scale is not in terms of just the infrastructure, but the scale is also in terms of people that can do the automation in terms of, you know, providing the services for our infrastructure, right. So that's how we approached it. People and then an application and infrastructure. So that included providing education in, in Kyndryl today rose to about 11,000 people that we have trained on Ansible, the use of Ansible, and the use of Ansible Tower, and just even doing development of the playbooks using Ansible. That's a theme. if you look at, if you look at, it's not just infrastructure scale. It's infrastructure scale, application to be able to scale to that infrastructure, and people to be able to scale to what we're trying to do to support our clients as well. >> I think the people think is huge because you have a side benefit here as harmony, and the teams. You got cohesiveness that breeds peace, not war. (everyone laughs) >> Absolutely. >> That's between teams. >> If you look at the, you know, the words that we said; cloud automation, community framework. If you really break it down, right, it's a framework, but for who? It's for the community. >> Yeah. >> But, what are they doing? They're building automation. >> Yeah >> And that is what >> The Security team wants to, >> the cloud is about, right? >> The security team wants to, make the apps go faster, The apps want to be fast, they don't want to be waiting. Everything's about going faster; Pass, shoot, score, as they say in sports. But, but, okay, I love this conversation. I think it's going to be the beginning of a big wave. How do people engage and how do I get involved if I want to use the cloud automation community framework? What's the consumption side for, how do you guys push this out there, and how do people engage with you? >> Scott do you want to take that one? >> Yeah. I mean the, the easiest way is, you know, Kyndryl, you know, we're, we're out there. We're, coming forward with our company, a spin off from IBM, come engage with our sales reps, come engage with our, our outsourcing, our social risk management service delivery organizations, and, and, you know, happy to get them engaged, get them on board, and get them using the automation framework we've got in place. >> That's awesome. Great. Well, great stuff. Love the automation conversation. Automation and hybrid are the big, big trends that are never going to stop. It's going to be a hybrid world we live in. And the edge is exciting. It's got, you mentioned the edge; it's just more and more action. It's a distributed computing paradigm. I mean, it really the same. We've seen this movie before Anand. Yeah, in tech. So now it's automation. So great stuff. Lisa, thank you for coming on; I appreciate it. >> Thank you. >> Thanks. >> Thank you, John. >> Thank you, John. We have coverage for Ansible Fest 2021. Power panel breaking down automation with Kyndryl. The importance of community, the importance of cohesiveness with teams, but more importantly, the outcome, the speed of development and security. I'm John for theCUBE, thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(bright upbeat music) >> Hello, and welcome back to the DockerCon 2021 virtual coverage. I'm John Furrie host of theCUBE here in Palo Alto with a remote interview with a great guest Cuban alumni, Jim Walker VP of Product Marketing at Cockroach Labs. Jim, great to see you remotely coming into theCUBE normally we're in person, soon we'll be back in real life. Great to see you. >> Great to see you as well John, I miss you. I miss senior live and in person. So this has got to do, I guess right? >> We we had the first multi-cloud event in New York city. You guys had was I think one of the last events that was going on towards the end of the year before the pandemic hit. So a lot's happened with Cockroach Labs over the past few years, accelerated growth, funding, amazing stuff here at DockerCon containerization of the world, containers everywhere and all places hybrid, pure cloud, edge everywhere. Give us the update what's going on with Cockroach Labs and then we'll get into what's going on at DockerCon. >> Yeah Cockroach Labs, this has been a pretty fun ride. I mean, I think about two and a half years now and John it's been phenomenal as the world kind of wakes up to a distributed systems and the containerization of everything. I'm happy we're at DockerCon talking about containerization 'cause I think it has radically changed the way we think about software, but more importantly it's starting to take hold. I think a lot of people would say, oh, it's already taken hold but if you start to think about like just, these kind of modern applications that are depending on data and what does containerization mean for the database? Well, Cockroach has got a pretty good story. I mean, gosh, before Escape I think the last time I talked to you, I was at CoreOS and we were playing the whole Kubernetes game and I remember Alex Povi talking about GIFEE Google infrastructure for everyone or for everyone else I should say. And I think that's what we've seen that kind of happened with the infrastructure layer but I think that last layer of infrastructure is the database. Like I really feel like the database is that dividing line between the business logic and infrastructure. And it's really exciting to see, just massive huge customers come to Cockroach to rethink what the database means in cloud, right? What does the database mean when we moved to distributed systems and that sort of thing, and so, momentum has been building here, we are, upwards of, oh gosh, over 300 paying customers now, thousands of Cockroach customers in the wild out there but we're seeing this huge massive attraction to CockroachCloud which is a great name. Come on, Johnny, you got to say, right? And our database as a service. So getting that out there and seeing the uptake there has just been, it's been phenomenal over the past couple of years. >> Yeah and you've got to love the Cockroach name, love it, survive nuclear war and winter all that good stuff as they say, but really the reality is that it's kind of an interesting play on words because one of the trends that we've been talking about, I mean, you and I've been telling this for years with our CUBE coverage around Amazon Web Services early on was very clear about a decade ago that there wasn't going to be one database to rule the world. They're going to many, many databases. And as you started getting into these cloud native deployments at scale, use your database of choice was the developer ethos just whatever it takes to get the job done. Now you start integrating this in a horizontally scalable way with the cloud, you have now new kinds of scale, cloud scale. And it kind of changed the game on the always on availability question which is how do I get high availability? How do I keep things running? And that is the number one developer challenge whether it's infrastructure as code, whether it's security shifting left, it all comes down to making sure stuff's running at scale and secure. Talk about that. >> Yeah, absolutely and it's interesting it's been, like I said, this journey in this arc towards distributed systems and truly like delivery of what people want in the cloud, it's been a long arc and it's been a long journey and I think we're getting to the point where people, they are starting to kind of bake resilience and scale into their applications and I think that's kind of this modern approach. Look we're taking legacy databases today. There are people are kind of lift and shift, move them into the cloud, try to run them there but they aren't just built for that infrastructure like the there's a fundamentally different approach and infrastructure when it talks, when you talk about cloud it's one of the reasons why John early on your conversations with the AWS Team and what they did, it's like, yeah, how do we give resilient and ubiquitous and always on scalable kind of infrastructure people. Well, that's great for those layers but when you start to get into the software that's running on these things, it isn't lift and shift and it's not even move and improve. You can't like just take a legacy system and change one piece of it to make it kind of take advantage of the scale and the resilience and the ubiquity of the cloud, because there's very very explicit challenges. For us, it's about re-architect and rebuild. Let's tear the database down and let's rethink it and build from the ground up to be cloud native. And I think the technologies that have done that, that have kind of built from scratch, to be cloud native are the ones that are I believe, three years from now that's what we're going to be talking about. I mean, this comes back to again, like the Genesis of what we did is Google Cloud Spanner. Spanner white paper and what Google did, they didn't build, they didn't use an existing database because they needed something for a transactional relational database. They hire a bunch of really incredible engineers, right? And I got like Jeff Dean and Sanjay Ghemawat over there, like designing and doing all these cool things, they build and I think that's what we're seeing and I think that's, to me the exciting part about data in the cloud as we move forward. >> Yeah, and I think the Google cloud infrastructure, everyone I think that's the same mindset for Amazon is that I want all the scale, but I don't want to do it like over 10 years I to do it now, which I love I want to get back to in a second, but I want to ask you specifically this definition of containerization of the database. I've heard that kicked around, love the concept. I kind of understand what it means but I want you to define it for us. What does it mean when someone says containerizing the database? >> Yeah, I mean, simply put the database in container and run it and that's all that I can think that's like, maybe step one I think that's kind of lift and shift. Let's put it in a container and run it somewhere. And that's not that hard to do. I think I could do that. I mean, I haven't coded in a long time but I think I could figure that out. It's when you start to actually have multiple instances of a container, right? And that's where things get really, really tricky. Now we're talking about true distributed systems. We're talking about how do you coordinate data? How do you balance data across multiple instances of a database, right? How do you actually have fail over so that if one node goes down, a bunch of them are still available. How do you guarantee transactional consistency? You can't just have four instances of a database, all with the same information in it John without any sort of coordination, right? Like you hit one node and you hit another one in the same account which transaction wins. And so the concepts in distributed systems around there's this thing called the cap theorem, there's consistency, availability, and partition tolerance and actually understanding how these things work especially for data in distributed systems, to make sure that it's going to be consistent and available and you're going to scale those things are not simple to solve. And again, it comes back to this. I don't think you can do it with legacy database. You kind of have to re-architect and it comes down to where data is stored, it comes down to how it's replicated, it comes down to really ultimately where it's physically located. I think when you deploy a database you think about the logical model, right? You think about tables, and normalization and referential integrity. The physical location is extremely important as we kind of moved to that kind of containerized and distributed systems, especially around data. >> Well, you guys are here at DockerCon 2021 Cockroach Labs good success, love the architectural flexibility that you guys offer. And again, bringing that scale, like you mentioned it's awesome value proposition, especially if people want to just program the infrastructure. What's going on with with DockerCon specifically a lot of talk about developer productivity, a lot of talk about collaboration and trust with containers, big story around security. What's your angle here at DockerCon this year? What's the big reveal? What's the discussion? What's the top conversation? >> Yeah, I mean look at where we are a containerized database and we are an incredibly great choice for developers. For us, it's look at there's certain developer communities that are important on this planet, John, and this is one of them, right? This is I don't know a developer doesn't have that little whale up in their status bar, right? And for us, you know me man, I believe in this tech and I believe that this is something that's driven and greatly simplify our lives over the next two to three to 10 to 15 years. And for us, it's about awareness. And I think once people see Cockroach, they're like oh my God, how did I ever even think differently? And so for us, it's kind of moving in that direction. But ultimately our vision where we want to be, is we want to abstract the database to a SQL API in the cloud. We want to make it so simple that I just have this rest interface, there's end points all over the planet. And as a developer, I never have to worry about scale. I never have to worry about DR right? It's always going to be on. And most importantly, I don't have to worry about low latency access to data no matter where I'm at on the planet, right? I can give every user this kind of sub 50 millisecond access to data or sub 20 millisecond access to data. And that is the true delivery of the cloud, right? Like I think that's what the developer wants out of the cloud. They want to code against a service like, and it's got to be consumption-based and you secure and I don't want to have to pay for stuff I'm not using and that all those things. And so, for us, that's what we're building to, and interacting in this environment is critical for us because I think that's where audiences. >> I want to get your thoughts on you guys do have success with a couple of different personas and developers out there, groups, classic developers, software developers which is this show is that DockerCon full of developers KubeCon a lot of operators cool, and some dads, but mostly cloud native operations. Here's a developer shops. So you guys got to hit the developers which really care about building fast and building the scale and last with security. Architects you had success with, which is the classic, cloud architecture, which now distributed computing, we get that. But the third area I would call the kind of the role that both the architects and the developers had to take on which is being the DevOps person or then becomes the SRE in the group, right? So most startups have the DevOps team developers. They do DevOps natively and within every role. So they're the same people provisioning. But as you get larger and an enterprise, the DevOps role, whether it's in a team or group takes on this SRE site reliability engineer. This is a new dynamic that brings engineering and coding together. It's like not so much an ops person. It's much more of like an engineering developer. Why is that role so important? And we're seeing more of it in dev teams, right? Seeing an SRE person or a DevOps person inside teams, not a department. >> Yeah, look, John, we, yeah, I mean, we employ an army of SREs that manage and maintain our CockroachCloud, which is CockroachDB as a service, right? How do you deliver kind of a world-class experience for somebody to adopt a managed service a database such as ours, right? And so for us, yeah I mean, SREs are extremely important. So we have personal kind of an opinion on this but more importantly, I think, look at if you look at Cockroach and the architecture of what we built, I think Kelsey Hightower at one point said, I am going to probably mess this up but there was a tweet that he wrote. It's something like, CockroachDB is the Spanner as Kubernetes is the board. And if you think about that, I mean that's exactly what this is and we built a database that was actually amenable to the SRE, right? This is exactly what they want. They want it to scale up and down. They want it to just survive things. They want to be able to script this thing and basically script the world. They want to actually, that's how they want to manage and maintain. And so for us, I think our initial audience was definitely architects and operators and it's theCUBE con crowd and they're like, wow, this is cool. This is architected just like Kubernetes. In fact, like at etcd, which is a key piece of Kubernetes but we contribute back up to NCD our raft implementation. So there's a lot of the same tech here. What we've realized though John, with database is interesting. The architect is choosing a database sometimes but more often than not, a developer is choosing that database. And it's like they go out, they find a database, they just start building and that's what happens. So, for us, we made a very critical decision early on, this database is wire compatible with Postgres and it speaks to SQL syntax which if you look at some of the other solutions that are trying to do these things, those things are really difficult to do at the end. So like a critical decision to make sure that it's amenable so that now we can build the ORMs and all the tools that people would use and expect that of Postgres from a developer point of view, but let's simplify and automate and give the right kind of like the platform that the SREs need as well. And so for us the last year and a half is really about how do we actually build the right tooling for the developer crowd too. And we've really pushed really far in that world as well. >> Talk about the aspect of the scale of like, say startup for instance, 'cause you made this a great example borg to Kubernetes 'cause borg was Google's internal Kubernetes, like thing. So you guys have Spanner which everyone knows is a great product at Google had. You guys with almost the commercial version of that for the world. Is there, I mean, some people will say and I'll just want to challenge you on this and we'll get your thoughts. I'm not Google, I'll never be Google, I don't need that scale. Or so how do you address that point because some people say, well this might dismiss the notion of using it. How do you respond to that? >> Yeah, John, we get this all the time. Like, I'm not global. My application's not global. I don't need this. I don't need a tank, right? I just need, like, I just need to walk down the road. You know what I mean? And so, the funny thing is, even if you're in a single region and you're building a simple application, does it need to be always on does it need to be available. Can it survive the failure of a server or a rack or an AZ it doesn't have to survive the failure of a region but I tell you what, if you're successful, you're going to want to start actually deploying this thing across multiple regions. So you can survive a backhoe hit in a cable and the entire east coast going out, right? Like, and so with Cockroach, it's real easy to do that. So it's four little SQL commands and I have a database that's going to span all those regions, right? And I think that's important but more importantly, think about scale, when a developer wants to scale, typically it's like, okay, I'm going to spin up Postgres and I'm going to keep increasing my instance size. So I'm going to scale vertically until I run out of room. And then I'm going to have to start sharding this database. And when you start doing that, it adds this kind of application complexity that nobody really wants to deal with. And so forget it, just let the database deal with all that. So we find this thing extremely useful for the single developer in a very small application but the beauty thing is, if you want to go global, great just keep that in notes. Like when that application does take off and it's the next breakthrough thing, this database going to grow with you. So it's good enough to kind of start small but it's the scale fast, it'll go global if you want to, you have that option, I guess, right? >> I mean, why wouldn't you want optionality on this at all? So clearly a good point. Let me ask you a question, take me through a use case where with Cockroach, some scenario develops nicely, you can point to the visibility of the use case for the developer and then kind of how it played out and then compare that and contrast that to a scenario that doesn't go well, like where where we're at plays out well, for an example, and then if they didn't deploy it they got hung up and went sideways. >> Yeah like Cockroach was built for transactional workloads. That that's what we are like, we are optimized for the speed of light and consistent transactions. That's what we do, and we do it very well. At least I think so, right. But I think, like my favorite customer of all of ours is DoorDash and about a year ago DoorDash came to us and said, look at we have a transactional database that can't handle the right volume that we're getting and falls over. And they they'd significant challenges and if you think about DoorDash and DoorDash is business they're looking at an IPO in the summer and going through these, you can't have any issues. So like system's got to be up and running, right? And so for them, it was like we need something that's reliable. We need something that's not going to come down. We need something that's going to scale and handle burst and these sort of things and their business is big, their businesses not just let me deliver food all the time. It's deliver anything, like be that intermediary between a good and somebody's front door. That's what DoorDash wants to be. And for us, yeah, their transactions and that backend transactional system is built on Cockroach. And that's one year ago, they needed to get experienced. And once they did, they started to see that this was like very, very valuable and lots of different workloads they had. So anywhere there's any sort of transactional workload be it metadata, be it any sort of like inventory, or transaction stuff that we see in companies, that's where people are coming to us. And it's these traditional relational workloads that have been wrapped up in these transactional relational databases what built for the cloud. So I think what you're seeing is that's the other shoe to drop. We've seen this happen, you're watching Databricks, you're watching Snowflake kind of do this whole data cloud and then the analytical side John that's been around for a long time and there's that move to the cloud. That same thing that happened for OLAP, is got to happen for OLTP. Where we don't do well is when somebody thinks that we're an analytic database. That's not what we're built for, right? We're optimized for transactions and I think you're going to continue to see these two sides of the world, especially in cloud especially because I think that the way that our global systems are going to work you don't want to do analytics across multiple regions, it doesn't make sense, right? And so that's why you're going to see this, the continued kind of two markets OLAP and OLTP going on and we're just, we're squaring that OLTP side of the world. >> Yeah talking about the transaction processing side of it when you start to change a distributed architecture that goes from core edge, core on premises to edge. Edge being intelligent edge, industrial edge, whatever you're going to have more action happening. And you're seeing, Kubernetes already kind of talking about this and with the containers you got, so you've got kind of two dynamics. How does that change the nature of, and the level of volume of transactions? >> Well, it's interesting, John. I mean, if you look at something like Kubernetes it's still really difficult to do multi-region or multicloud Kubernetes, right? This is one of those things that like you start to move Kubernetes to the edge, you're still kind of managing all these different things. And I think it's not the volumes, it's the operational nightmare of that. For us, that's federate at the data layer. Like I could deploy Cockroach across multiple Kubernetes clusters today and you're going to have one single logical database running across those. In fact you can deploy Cockroach today on top of three public cloud providers, I can have nodes in AWS, I could have nodes in GCP, I could have nodes running on VMs in my data center. Any one of those nodes can service requests and it's going to look like a single logical database. Now that to me, when we talked about multicloud a year and a half ago or whatever that was John, that's an actual multicloud application and delivering data so that you don't have to actually deal with that in your application layer, right? You can do that down in the guts of the database itself. And so I think it's going to be interesting the way that these things gets consumed and the way that we think about where data lives and where our compute lives. I think that's part of what you're thinking about too. >> Yeah, so let me, well, I got you here. One of the things on my mind I think people want to maybe get clarification on is real quick while you're here. Take a minute to explain that you're seeing a CockroachDB and CockroachCloud. There are different products, you mentioned you've brought them both up. What's the difference for the developers watching? What's the difference of the two and when do I need to know the difference between the two? >> So to me, they're really one because CockroachCloud is CockroachDB as a service. It's our offering that makes it a world-class easy to consume experience of working with CockroachDB, where we take on all the hardware we take on the SRE role, we make sure it's up and running, right? You're getting connection, stringing your code against it. And I think, that's side of our world is really all about this kind of highly evolved database and delivering that as a service and you can actually use it's CockroachDB. I think it was just gets really interesting John is the next generation of what we're building. This serverless version of our database, where this is just an API in the cloud. We're going to have one instance of Cockroach with multi-tenant database in there and any developer can actually spin up on that. And to me, that gets to be a really interesting world when the world turns serverless, and we have, we're running our compute in Lambda and we're doing all these great things, right? Or we're using cloud run and Google, right? But what's the corresponding database to actually deal with that? And that to me is a fundamentally different database 'cause what is scale in the serverless world? It's autonomous, right? What scale in the current, like Cockroach world but you kind of keep adding nodes to it, you manage, you deal with that, right? What does resilience mean in a serverless world? It's just, yeah, its there all the time. What's important is latency when you get to kind of serverless like where are these things deployed? And I think to me, the interesting part of like the two sides of our world is what we're doing with serverless and kind of this and how we actually expose the core value of CockroachDB in that way. >> Yeah and I think that's one of the things that is the Nirvana or the holy grail of infrastructure as code is making it, I won't say irrelevant, but invisible if you're really dealing with a database thing, hey I'm just scaling and coding and the database stuff is just working with compute, just whatever, how that's serverless and you mentioned Lambda that's the action because you don't want the file name and deciding what the database is just having it happen is more productivity for the developers that kind of circles back to the whole productivity message for the developers. So I totally get that I think that's a great vision. The question I have for you Jim, is the big story here is developer simplicity. How you guys making it easier to just deploy. >> John is just an extension of the last part of the conversation. I don't want to developer to ever have to worry about a database. That's what Spencer and Peter and Ben have in their vision. It's how do I make the database so simple? It's simple, it's a SQL API in the cloud. Like it's a rest interface, I code against it, I run queries against it, I never have to worry about scaling the thing. I never have to worry about creating active, passive, and primary and secondary. All these like the DevOps side of it, all this operation stuff, it's just kind of done in the background dude. And if we can build it, and it's actually there now where we have it in beta, what's the role of the cost-based optimizer in this new world that we've had in databases? How are you actually ensuring data is located close to users and we're automating that so that, when John's in Australia doing a show, his data is going to follow him there. So he has fast access to that, right? And that's the kind of stuff that, we're talking about the next generation of infrastructure John, not like we're not building for today. Like, look at Cockroach Labs is not building for like 2021. Sure, do we have something that's great. We're building something that's 22 and 23 and 24, right? Like what do we need to be as a extremely productive set of engineers? And that's what we think about all day. How do we make data easy for the developer? >> Well, Jim, great to have you on VP of Product Marketing at Cockroach Labs, we've known each other for a long time. I got to ask you while I had got you here final question is, you and I have chatted about the many waves of in open source and in the computer industry, what's your take on where we are now. And I see you're looking at it from the Cockroach Labs perspective which is large scale distributed computing kind of you're on the new side of history, the right side of history, cloud native. Where are we right now? Compare and contrast for the folks watching who we're trying to understand the importance of where we are in the industry, where are we in and what's your take? >> Yeah John I feel fortunate to be in a company such as this one and the past couple that I've like been around and I feel like we are in the middle of a transformation. And it's just like the early days of this next generation. And I think we're seeing it in a lot of ways in infrastructure, for sure but we're starting to see it creep up into the application layer. And for me, it is so incredibly exciting to see the cloud was, remember when cloud was like this thing that people were like, oh boy maybe I'll do it. Now it's like, it's anything net new is going to be on cloud, right? Like we don't even think twice about it and the coming nature of cloud native and actually these technologies that are coming are going to be really interesting. I think the other piece that's really interesting John is the changing role of open source in this whole game, because I think of open source as code consumption and community, right? I think about those and then there's license of course, I think people were always there. A lot of people wrapped around the licensing. Consumption has changed, John. Back when we were talking to Dupe, consumption was like, oh, it's free, I get this thing I could just download it use it. Well consumption over the past three years, everybody wants everything as a service. And so we're ready to pay. For us, how do we bring free back to the service? And that's what we're doing. That's what I find like I am so incredibly excited to go through this kind of bringing back free beer to open source. I think that's going to be great 'cause if I can give you a database free up to five gig or 10 gig, man and it's available all over the planet has fully featured, that's coming, that's bringing our community and our code which is all open source and this consumption model back. And I'm super excited about that. >> Yeah, free beer who doesn't like free beer of course, developers love free beer and a great t-shirt too that's soft. Make sure you get that, get the soft >> You just don't want free puppy, you know what I mean? It was just like, yeah, that sounds painful. >> Well Jim, great to see you remotely. Can't wait to see you in person at the next event. And we've got the fall window coming up. We'll see some events. I think KubeCon in LA is going to be in-person re-invent a data breast for sure we'll be in person. I know that for a fact we'll be there. So we'll see you in person and congratulations on the work at Cockroach Labs. >> Thanks, John, great to see you again. All right, this keep coverage of DockerCon 2021. I'm John Furrie your host of theCUBE. Thanks for watching.

(ambient music) >> Hello and welcome back to theCUBEs' coverage of Red Hat Summit 21 virtual. I'm John Furrier. Host of theCUBE. This year, virtual again, soon to be in real life, Post COVID. As the fall comes into play, we're going to start to see life come back and the digital transformation continue to accelerate. And we've got a great guest, Stefanie Chiras, Senior Vice President and General Manager at Red Hat. CUBE alumni. Great to see you. Stephanie, Thanks for coming on. >> No, it's my pleasure, John. Thanks for having me. I'm thrilled to be here with you and look forward to doing it in person soon. >> I can't wait. A lot of people on their vaccine, some say that by the fall vaccines, where pretty much everyone 12 and over, will be vaccinated but we're going to start to see the onboarding of real life again but never going to be the same. Digital business, at the speed of online, offline, almost redefined and re-imagine. Not the old, offline, online paradigms. You're starting to see that come together. That's the focus. That's the top story in the technology industry. That really brings together the topic that I'd like to talk to you about, which is edge computing and RHEL and Linux. This is the topic where all the action is. Obviously hybrid operating models have been pretty much agreed upon by the industry. That is the way it is. Multicloud is on the horizon but edge part of the distributed system. This is where the action is. A natural extension to the open hybrid cloud which you guys have been pioneering. Take me through your thoughts on this edge computing dynamic with RHEL. >> Yeah. So as you said, we have been on this open hybrid cloud strategy for eight years or so. Very focused on providing customers choice both in where they run, what they run, how they run their applications. And the beauty of this strategy is the strategy endures because it's able to adapt to new technologies coming in. And as you said, edge is where things are happening now. It's enabling customers to do so many new and different things. You take kind of all of the dynamics that are happening in technology with data being produced everywhere, new even architectures and compute capabilities that can bring compute right out there to the data. You get 5G networks coming in and incredible advances in telco and networking. You pull that out. Now you've created a dynamic where the technology can really make edge a viable place to now extend how open hybrid cloud can reach and deliver value. And, our goal is to bring our platform and our ecosystem to do everything from the core of your data center out to public clouds, multiple public clouds. And now bring that all the way out to the edge. >> You know, we talk about edge, you know, we talk decentralization, distributed computing. These are the paradigms that are getting re-imagined, if you will, and expanded. You guys talk about and you talk about specifically this idea of digital fast economy requires a new kind of infrastructure. Talk about this because this is, you know, some say virtual first, media first, data first, video first, I mean, developer first, everything's like a first thing, but this is...focuses on the new normal. Take us through this new economy. >> It's really about how you focus on being able to deliver digitally with decisions near the data, and to be able to adapt to that. It's thinking about how you take footprints and now your footprint out at the edge becomes a part of that. One of the things that's really exciting about edge is it does have some specific use case requirements. And we're seeing some things come back. Things like, I mean, we've talked in the past about heterogeneous computing and heterogeneous architectures and the possibilities that exist there. Now at the edge we're seeing different architecture show up, which is great to see. Being able to bring a platform that can allow the use of those different architectures out at the edge to deliver value is a great thing. In addition, we're seeing bare-metal come back out at the edge. You can really imagine spaces where out at the edge you have new architectures with bare-metal deployments and you're operating containers that are touching directly onto that bare-metal. It brings a whole new paradigm to how to deliver value but now we can bring the consistency of what Linux and RHEL and OpenShift with containers can bridge across that whole space. >> So heterogeneous computing, distributed computing, multi-vendor, if you kind of weave those keywords together you have to have a supporting operating model that allows for different services, cloud services, network services, application services, work together. This kind of puts an emphasis on a control plane, a software platform that can bring this together. This is the core, if I understand the Red Hat strategy properly, you guys are going right at this point. Is that true? >> Yeah, that's absolutely right. It is. When everything else, you can get value from everything else changing what stays the same to help keep you efficient and consistent across it? And that's where we focus on the platforms. And as open hybrid cloud changes with different optionalities, our focus is to bring that sort of single common control plane that provides consistency. So you can develop once and reuse, but make it adaptable to how you want to leverage that application as a container, as a BM, on bare-metal, out at the edge, on multiple public clouds. It's really about expanding that landscape that open hybrid cloud can touch. And you'll see in other discussions, you know, one of the places we're going into new is in the edge, manage services also become part of that paradigm. So, it really is our focus to be that common control plane, provide accessibility while still delivering consistency. And let's face it consistency down at the operating system level, that's what starts to deliver your things like security. And boy, it's a critical topic today, right? To make sure that as you expand and distribute and you've got compute running out there with data, security is top of mind. >> I have to ask you, we've been having many conversations in the open source community, Linux foundation, CNCF, KubeCon, CloudNativeCon, and other other communities. And the common thread is... And I want to get your reaction to this statement, the statement is "Edge computing's foundation must be open across the board." Talk about that. What's your reaction to that? And how does that relate to Red Hat and what you guys are doing at the edge and with RHEL. >> I mean, we really believe an open source brings compatibility and standardization that allows innovation to grow. In any new technology, fragmentation causes the death of the new technology. So you...our focus is, it will have to be, I mean, we firmly believe it absolutely has to be built on an open platform that has standards so that the ecosystem, and the ecosystem around edge is complex. You have multiple hardware capabilities, multiple vendors, any edge deployment will be multi-vendor. So how do you pull all of that together in an ecosystem? It is about having that foundation be open and be able to be accessible and built upon by everyone. >> You know, you were talking earlier about the edge in 5G and we just talking about open. This is the future of computing, both consumer and enterprise, whether it's, you know, a factory or a consumer wearing a wearable device or sensors on cameras, on lights and cities and all these things are happening. I want to get your reaction to that because there's a difference between industrial IOT devices and consumer IOT devices. Both have different ramifications. You know, 5G certainly is not so much a consumer as it is also a business technology, as you get the kind of throughputs you're seeing. So, both consumer and industrial enterprise capabilities are emerging. What's your position on that? >> I mean, I think edge is one of those things that it's been hard for people to wrap their head around a bit because what we deal with edge in our own personal lives, whether that be in our connected home or our mobile phone, that's one view of what edge does in one set of value that it does. But from a separate lens edge is everything from how telco is deployed to how data is aggregated in from sensors and how decisions are made. I mean, we're seeing in spaces, whether it be in manufacturing and adding AI onto manufacturing floors, how do you have, you know, in vehicles, I mean, vehicles are becoming sort of mobile software centers now. So, there is a whole shift in edge that is different from industry 4.0 and from kind of operational transformation edge that it's driving all the way into kind of the things that we see everyday which is more the global space and how our homes are connected. And I think now we're starting to see a real maturity in how the world views edge to be able to compartmentalize what enterprise edge is able to do, how edge can change operational technologies, as well as how edge can change kind of our daily lives. >> Great vision and great insights. Definitely awesome. Thought leadership there. I totally agree. I think it's exciting you see confluence of so many awesome technologies and a bright future with the technology platforms and with society open now is defacto everything not just in tech and truth, whether it's journalism or reporting, society and security, again, trust. Open, trust, technology. I got all come in together. The confluence of all those are as going on. So, I think you've got a great read on that. So thanks for sharing. Red Hat Summit. What's new? Tell us what's new here and what's being talked about that no one's heard before and what's the existing stuff that's getting better. >> Yeah, we'd love to. So we are really doubling down on edge within our portfolio. We have, you probably saw in November, we had some announcements, both in OpenShift as well as in RHEL in order to add features and capabilities that deliver specifically for edge use cases. Things like the ability to do updates and roll back in a RHEL deployment. We are continuing to drive things into our products that cater to the needs of edge deployment. As part of that, we are engaged with a whole lot of customers today deploying their edge, and that's across industries, things from telco to energy to transportation. And so, as we look at all of those cases that we've been kind of engaged with and delivering value to customers, we are bringing forward the Red Hat edge brand. It's going to be our collection point to shine a spotlight for how the features and functions in our portfolio can come together and be used to deliver in edge deployments. It'll be our space where we can showcase use cases, where we're seeing success with customers but really to pull together 'cause it is a portfolio story and it's an ecosystem story. How do we pull that together in one spot? And in order to support that here at Summit, we are announcing some really key additions into RHEL 8.4 that really focused on the specific needs of what edge is driving. You'll see things like the ability in RHEL to create streamlined OS image generation. And we can simply manage that into container images. That container magic, right? To be able to repeatably deploy an image, repeatably deployed application out to the edge, that has become a key need in these edge deployments. So we've simplified that so operations teams can really meet the scale of their fleets and deploy it in a super consistent way. We've added capabilities. Image builder, we had brought out already, but we've added capabilities to create customized installation media. It's simplifies for bare-metal deployments. And as I mentioned out at the edge work, it's really small bare-metal deployments where you can bring that container right onto their bare-metal. Can imagine a lot of situations where that brings a lot of value. We introduced in RHEL 8.0 podman as our container engine. And we've added new automatic updates in that. So, again, getting back to security fixes. Simple to ensure that you have the latest security fixes. Application updates and we're continuing to add changes and updates into Universal Base Image. Universal base image is a collection of user space packages that are available to the community, fully redistributable. The goal of those user space packages is to enable developers to be able to create container images with those packages included and then they can redistribute them when they're run on OpenShift or they're run on RHELs. So we can really work through that user space and to that host, matching, and we can stand behind that matching, then we can support it, but it allows for a lot of freedom and flexibility with Universal Based Image to really expand where we can go and help folks kind of create, deploy and develop their applications. We're also moving into, I think, one of the things you see in edge is a real industry slant. We're starting to see edge deployments take on real industry flavors. And so we are engaging in some spots, things like, whether it be from automotive to industrial and operational technology. How do we engage in those industry verticals? How do we engage with the right partners? One of the things that's key that we're looking at, 'cause it is core to what we do, is things like functional safety. And, we're working with a company called Axeda who's a leader in this space for functional safety, for how do we bring that level of security and certification into the RHEL space when it's deployed out there at the edge? So, it's an exciting space, everything from the technology to the partnerships, to how we engage as industry verticals. But this is a... I'm really excited to have the Red Hat... >> I can tell. Super excited. You know, one of the things that's interesting is that the industry trivia as theCUBE has been around for 11 years now. We've been to all of Red Hat events and IBM events for many, many years. But I actually interviewed Arvind, who is now the CEO of IBM, who now owns Red Hat, at Red Hat Summit in San Francisco, like three years ago. And, he had a smile on his face and he just announced the acquisition shortly after 'cause I was hitting him with some cloud native questions. A lot of this stuff about kind of what's hitting today and you just laid it out. RHEL, if I get this right, and of course I'm connecting the dots here in real time, It's an operating system that hits bare-metal, open hybrid cloud, edge, public cloud and across the enterprise. It's an operating system. Okay. So, okay. We know all know that. Okay, you apply that to a cloud operating model, you have some system software. So the question, which by the way is, what's going to power the next gen cloud. I think is what Arvind wants and you guys hope. So the question for you Stephanie is, what applications do you hope to create on top of... and what do you have today that RHEL is powering because if you have great systems software like RHEL, that's enabling applications. I'm assuming that's cloud services, that's new cloud native. Take us through that part of the stack. What's your vision? >> Yeah, absolutely. And I think one of the key things that I would touch on is that it's part of the reason we build our portfolio the way we do, right? We have RHEL of course for your kind of Linux deployments that you described but RHEL CoreOS is part of OpenShift and that consistency delivers into the platform and then both of those can then serve the applications that you need to deploy. And we are really excited to be able to do things like work with the transportation industry, folks like Alstom who do really bring edge capabilities all the way out into the rails of the train systems. They, from high speed trains to metros to monorail, they have built their whole strategy on RHEL and Ansible Automation Platform. It's about the platform, just as you said that operating system, delivering the flexibility to pull the applications on top and those applications could be anything from things that require functional safety, right? Things like in vehicles, as an example, could be anything from artificial intelligence, which goes out into manufacturing. But having that stable platform underneath, whether or not using RHEL or OpenShift, that consistency, it opens up the world to how applications can be deployed on it. But I am super excited about what AI and machine learning out at the edge can do and what being able to bring really hardened security capabilities out to the edge, what that opens up for new technologies and businesses. >> That's super exciting. And I think the edge is a great exclamation point around any debate anyone might've had around what the distributed architecture is going to look like. It's pretty clear now what the landscape is from an enterprise standpoint. And given that, what should people know about the edge? What's the update? What's the modern takeaway now that we're, I mean, obviously COVID has proven that there's a lot of edge applications that kind of were under forecast or accelerated, working at home, dealing with network security, you name it. It's been kind of over-amplified, for sure. But now that COVID is kind of coming, there's light at the end of the tunnel, coming to an end, it's going to be still a hybrid world. I mean, hybrid everything, not just hybrid cloud I mean hybrid everything. So edge now can not be ignored. What should people take away from Red Hat Summit this year? >> Absolutely. I think it's the possibilities that edge can bring. And there are different stages of maturity. Telco, beautiful example of how to deploy edge. In telco, as a market continues to drive the.... kind of pioneer what is done in edge. You see a lot of embedded edge, right? Things that you deploy or your business may deploy that is... you purchase it from a company and it's more embedded as an appliance level. And then there's what the enterprise will do with edge specifically for their businesses. What I think you'll see is a catch-up across all of these spaces, that those three are complimentary, right? You've may consume some of your edge from a partner and a full solution. You may build some of your own edge as you expand your data center and distribute it. And you're made leverage. Of course you'll leverage what's being done by the telcos. So what I think you'll see is a balance in multiple types of edge being deployed and the different values that it can deliver. >> Stefanie, final question for you. And thanks for taking the time. Great conversation and interview here for Red Hat Summit. As the General Manager you're constantly talking to customers. I know that. Personally, you've told me that. Many stories off-camera. But also you have to look inside the organization, run the business, keep an eye on the product roadmap and make sure everything's pumping on all cylinders. What is the customer telling you right now? And what's the common pattern that people are talking about, things that they're looking to do, projects they're funding, and what's the most important story that we should be covering. And what's the most important story people aren't talking about? >> So I think one of the things, I'm really seeing, as you mentioned at the beginning we've been talking about open hybrid cloud for a long time. There was a period of time where hybrid cloud was happening to folks or kind of, it was a bit... some of developers were using it from here. Now, hybrid cloud is intentional. It is very intentional about how customers are strategically taking a view of what they deploy where, how they deploy it and taking a bit advantage of the optionality that hybrid can do. So that's one of the things I'm most excited about. I think the next steps that will happen is a balancing of how do they expand that out into, how do they balance a managed services addition into their hybrid cloud, how do they manage that with also having VMs and a large VM deployment on prem. To me now the biggest thing that is being looked at is how do companies make these decisions in a strategic way that is kind of holistic rather than making point decisions. And I am seeing that transition in the customers I talk to. It's not how do I deal with hybrid cloud, it's how do I make hybrid cloud work for me and really deliver value to me and how do I make those decisions as a company. And honestly that requires kind of what you talked about earlier. It requires within those customers to have the structure, the organizational structure, the communication, the transparency, the openness that you've talked about. That takes a strategy like open hybrid cloud a long way. So it's both the people and the process and the technology coming together. >> You know, Stefanie, we do so many interviews in theCUBE and you've been on so many times, you go back and look back and say, "You know, in that year, 2010, we were talking about this." Chiras, I was talking to a friend and we were just talking about 2015. That was the big conversation of moving to the cloud, you know. Startups are all there. Born in the cloud. So, you know, early generation was all about the startup cloud. They all got that. 2015 was like move to the cloud. This year, the conversation isn't about moving to the cloud is about scale and all those enterprise requirements now that are coming from the hybrid. Now that that's been decided, you starting to see that operating model connect. So it's not so much moving to the cloud, it's I've moved to the cloud and now I got to run some now enterprise grade scale operationally. What's your reaction to that? >> Absolutely. I mean, to me, the, I love the intentionality that I'm seeing now in customers, but when it comes down to it, it's about speed of deploying applications, it's about having the security and the stability in order to deploy that, to give you confidence in order to go out and scale it out. So to me, it is speed, stability and scale. Those three comes together. And how do you pull that together with whole of the choices we have today and the technologies today to deliver value and competitive differentiation. >> Open source is winning and you guys are doing a great job. Stefanie, thank you for coming on and spending so much time chatting here in theCUBE for Red Hat Summit. Thanks for your time. >> Well, my pleasure, John. Good to see you. >> Okay. Great to see you. This is theCUBEs' coverage of Red Hat Summit 21 virtual. I'm John Furrier with theCUBE. Thanks for watching. (ambient music)

>> Announcer: From around the globe, it's theCUBE! With coverage of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2020, virtual. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and ecosystem partners. >> Hi, and welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman, and this is theCUBE's coverage of KubeCon CloudNativeCon 2020 in Europe, the virtual edition of course. We're talking to practitioners, we're talking to contributors, we're talking to end users from around the globe where they are, and of course when we talk about the CNCF, it's not just Kubernetes, there's a lot of projects in there, and it's not just for building things in the cloud, one of the interesting use cases that we've been talking about the last year or two has been about how edge computing fits into this whole ecosystem. To help us dig in a little bit deeper into that conversation, welcome on board one of our CUBE alumni, Nick Barcet, he is a senior director of technology strategy at Red Hat. Nick, great to see you again, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thanks for inviting me again. >> All right, so as I teed up, containerization and Kubernetes, a lot of times people think about it's the big public cloud that's my data center, but of course, cloud is not a destination, there's so much happening with the containerized world, and of course these lightweight environments, when we can make them lightweight, makes sense to go to the edge, so if you could, just tell us where we are with the state of containerization and the cloud-native ecosystem, and where does that fit with edge computing today? >> So what we're seeing currently is every ISV, every customer we talk with, are converting to developing their application with container as a target. This is making it so much simpler for them to be able to establish their application wherever they want. Of course, when we add, for example, the operator framework that we just got accepted into the CNCF, and normalize how you're going to do day one and day two of the life cycle of this container, this is making things a lot simpler. And this is allowing us to have the same principle reapplied for deployments happening in the cloud, on your private data center, and anywhere at the edge. And that's really the core of our strategy, whether in the open source community, or as a commercial company. It is to make all these different footprints absolutely equal when you are writing code, when you're deploying code, when you're managing it. >> Yeah, Nick, we talk about the edge from my standpoint, tend to think that it is going to need a lighter weight, smaller footprint than if I'm thinking about my data center or the environment, reminds me some ways of of course Red Hat, but CoreOS was how do we build something that can be updated faster and be a thinner operating system. When we think of Kubernetes, Kubernetes today isn't as simple, there's obviously a lot of managed services out there, of course with OpenShift you've got an industry leading solution out there, but is there something different I need to do to be able to do containerization and Kubernetes at the edge? How does that fit? >> As a developer, as a user, I hope you have nothing different to do. It's our job to make our platform suit the requirement that are very specific to the edge. For example, if you're going to put Kubernetes inside of a plane, you're not going to be able to use all the space you want. You're very space-constrained. Or if you put it in a train, or if you put it in a boat, you're going to have different types of constraints. And we need to be able to have a implementation of Kubernetes that fits the smallest requirement, but still has the components that enables you as a developer or you as the administrator to feel at home regardless of the implementation of it. And that's the real beauty of what we are trying to do, and that's why we are not rushing it. We are trying to do it upstream so that we have something that is as smooth as possible across different points. >> All right, when we talk about going to the edge, one of the considerations of course is the network to get there. So help us connect what the impact is of 5G, where we are with the rollout, and are there any industries maybe that are leading the pack when it comes to this discussion? >> Yeah, so when I talk about 5G, I like to distinguish two things. There is 5G as the network that the carriers are currently deploying to support all kinds of terminal endpoints. And it happens that in order to have an efficient 5G deployment, operators use edge technology to deploy computing power as close as possible to the tower. So that the latency between your device and what is connecting you to the internet, the time packets take to go across that last mile, is as short as possible. There is a second case, which is also very interesting in the edge part. Which is private 5G, because private 5G enables the customer to establish his, let's say his own antenna, his own local 5G network completely secure, that will enable connecting sensors or devices of all kinds, without having to run wire, and in a much more reliable way than if you're using Wi-Fi or similar kinds of connectivity. So these two aspects are crucial to edge, one because edge is enabling the deployment of it, the other one because it's enabling the growth of the number of sensors without multiplying the cost like crazy. In terms of deployments, well, you know our largest reference is Verizon, and Verizon is moving forward with its plan. This is going very well, I believe they have communicated around this so I will point you around what Verizon has stated on their deployment, but we have multiple other customers starting their journey and clearly, the fact that we have the ability to deploy the stack on the version of Kubernetes that is basically the same regardless of where you're deploying it. That has the ability to support both containers and VM for those applications that are not yet containerized, makes a huge difference in the simplicity of this transition. >> Yeah, it's interesting, you talk about the conversion between virtual machines and containers. One of the big use cases often talked about for edge computing is in industrial manufacturing, and there you've got the boundary between IT and OT, and OT traditionally doesn't want to even think about all those IT conversions and challenges that they've got their proprietary systems for the most part, so is that something, speak to what you're seeing in that segment. >> So, it's interesting, because we just released last week our first inclination about the industrial blueprint that we are proposing. And for us, the convergence between IT and OT comes at when you have automation in the interpretation of data provided by sensors. This automation generally takes the form of machine learning algorithms, that are deployed on the factory floors, that analyzes the sensor data in real time, and will be able to predict failure, or will be able to look at video feed to verify that employees are respecting safety measures, and many many other applications. So because of the value this brings to the operational people, this bridge is very easily closed once you've resolved the technical difficulty, and the technical difficulty are mostly what I call plumbing. Plumbing that takes the form of norms being widely different between the industrial world and the IT world so far. Difficulties because you don't speak the same language. Let's take an example. In the industrial world, CAN is the way you're synchronizing time resources. In the IT world, we have been using other protocol, and more recently, especially in the telco space, we're using PTP. But it seems that PTP is now crossing over to the industrial world, so things are slowly but very safely evolving with something that is enabling this next wave of revolution into the factories. >> Yeah, Nick, it's been fascinating always to watch when you have some of those silos, and when is the right time that things pull together. Curious, one of the big questions in 2020 of course is with the global pandemic going on, which projects get accelerated, and which ones might be pushed off a little bit, where does edge computing fall in the conversations you're having with customers, is that something mission-critical that they need to accelerate, or is it something that might take a little bit longer, possibly even a delay with the current pandemic? >> So it's quite hard to answer this question because we are in an up slope. Is the slope less up now than it would have been without the pandemic, I have no way to tell. What I'm seeing is a constant uptick of people moving forward with their projects, in fact some projects are made, for example for worker safety, are made even more urgent than they were before, because by just analyzing video feed, you can ensure that your processes prevents too close contact between coworkers, and making them vulnerable in this way. So it really depends on the industry, I imagine, but right now we see the demand growing regardless of the pandemic. >> All right, Nick, you mentioned earlier that when I think about the edge, it should be the same code, I hopefully shouldn't have to think about it differently no matter where it is. That begs the question, help connect OpenShift for us as to what is Red Hat offering when it comes to the edge solution with OpenShift? >> So, you have, what we say is the edge is like an onion, where you have different layers. And every time I look at the onion in the perspective of a given customer, the layers are very different. But what we are finding is, similar requirements in terms of security, in terms of power consumption, in terms of space allocated for the hardware, and in order to satisfy these requirements, we found out that we need to build three new ways of deploying OpenShift, so that we can match all of these potential layers. The first one that we have released and are announcing this week is OpenShift deployable on three nodes, that means that you have your supervisors, your controllers, and your workers, on the same three physical machines. That's not the smallest footprint that we need, but it's a pretty good footprint to solve the case of a factory. In this environment, with these three nodes, we have something that is capable of being fully connected or working disconnected with. The second footprint that we need to be able to satisfy for is what we call single node deployment. And single node deployment from our perspective need to come in two flavors. The easy way, the one we're going to be releasing next quarter, is what we call remote worker node. So you have your controllers in a central site, and you can have up to 2000 remote worker nodes spread across as many site as you want. The caveat with this is that you need to have full time connectivity. So in order to solve for this connected site, then we need something that is a standalone single node deployment, and that's something that a lot of people have prototypes so far, and we are currently working on delivering a version that we hope is going to be satisfying 99% of the requirement, and is going to be fully upstream. >> All right, last piece on this, Nick, how should I be thinking about managing my environment when it comes to the edge, seen a lot of course from Red Hat at Red Hat Summit and talked to some of your peers, some recent announcements, so how do we plug in what's happening at the edge and make sure we've got full visibility and management across all of my environments? >> So if I had one word to explain what we need to do, it's GitOps. Basically, you need immutable deployments, you need to be pulling configuration and all information from a central site and adapt it to the local site, without manual intervention. You need full automation. And you need a tool to manage your policies on top of it, and of course aggregate information on how things are going. What we don't want is to have to sit one administrator per site. What we do not want is to have to send people on each site at the time of deployment. So you need to be abiding by this completely automated model in order to be edge compliant. Does that make sense? >> It does, and I'm assuming the ACM solution, Advanced Cluster Management, is a piece of that overall offer. >> Absolutely, ACM is the way we present, we organize policies, the way we get reporting information, and the way we do our GitOps automation. >> All right, so Nick, final question for you, give us a little bit of a look forward, you just mentioned earlier one of the things that's getting worked on is that single node disconnected type of solution. What else should we be looking at in the maturity of edge solutions in this containerizing Kubernetes world? >> So it's not only about the architecture that we need to support. It's a lot more about the workloads that we are going to have running there. And in order to help our customer make their choice, in how they design the network, we need to provide them with what we call blueprints. And in our mind, a blueprint is more than just a piece of paper. It's actually a complete set of instruction, abiding with this GitOps model that I described, that you can pull from a Git repository, that enables automation of the deployment of something. So for example, the first blueprint we are going to be releasing is the one for industrial manufacturing using AIML, and this is going to be something that we are going to be maintaining over time, accepting contribution from outside, and is an end to end example of how to do it in a factory. We are going to follow up with that with other blueprints for 5G, for private 5G, for how do you deploy that in maybe a healthcare environment, et cetera, et cetera, the idea here is to exemplify and help people make the right choices and also ensuring that the stack we provide at one point in time remains compatible given the complexity of the components we have in there over time, and that's really the thing that we think we need to be providing to our customers. >> All right, well Nick, thank you so much for giving us the update, in regards to edge computing, really important and exciting segment of the market. >> Thank you very much, 'twas a pleasure being with you once again. >> All right, and stay with us, lots more coverage from KubeCon CloudNativeCon 2020 in Europe, the virtual edition. I'm Stu Miniman and thank you for watching theCUBE. (calm music)

>> Announcer: Live from San Diego, California, it's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE here in San Diego for KubeCon CloudNativeCon, with John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman, and happy to welcome to the program two guests, first time guests, I believe. Julio Tapia, who's the director of Cloud BU partner and community with Red Hat and Gou Rao, who's the founder and CEO at Portworx. Gentlemen, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you, happy to be here. >> Thanks for having us. >> Alright, let's start with community, ecosystem, it's a big theme we have here at the show. Tell us your main focus, what the team's doing here. >> Sure, so I'm part of a product team, we're responsible for OpenShift, OpenStack and Red Hat virtualization. And my responsibility is to build a partner ecosystem and to do our community development. On the partner front, we work with a lot of different partners. We work with ISVs, we work with OEMs, SIs, COD providers, TelCo partners. And my role is to help evangelize, to help on integrations, a lot of joint solutions, and then do a little bit of go to market as well. And the community side, it's to evangelize with upstream projects or customers with developers, and so forth. >> Alright, so, Gou, actually, it's not luck, but I had a chance to catch up with the Red Hat storage team. Back when I was on the vendor side I partnered with them. Red Hat doesn't sell gear, they're a software company. Everything open-source, and when it comes to data and storage, obviously they're working with partners. So put Portworx into the mix and tell us about the relationship and what you both do together. >> Sure, yeah, we're a Red Hat OpenShift partner. We've been working with them for quite some time now, partner with IBM as well. But yeah, Portworx, we focus on enabling cloud native storage, right? So we complement the OpenShift ecosystem. Essentially we enable people to run stateful services in OpenShift with a lot of agility and we bring DR backup functionality to OpenShift. I'm sure you're familiar with this, but, people, when they deploy OpenShift, they're running fleets of OpenShift clusters. So, multi-cluster management and data accessibility across clusters is a big topic. >> Yeah, if you could, I hear the term cloud native storage, what does that really mean? You know, back a few years ago, containers were stateless, I didn't have my persistent storage, it was super challenging as to how we deal with this. And now we have some options, but what is the goal of what we're doing here? >> There really is no notion of a stateless application, right? Especially when it comes to enterprise applications. What cloud native storage means is, to us at least, it signifies a couple of things. First of all, the consumer of storage is not a machine anymore, right? Typical storage systems are designed to provide storage to either a virtual machine or a hardware server. The consumer of storage is now a container that's running inside of a machine. And in fact, an application is never just one container, it's many containers running on different systems so it's a distributed problem. So what cloud native storage means is the following things. Providing container granular data services, being application aware, meaning that you're providing services to many containers that are running on different systems, and facilitating the data life cycle management of those applications from a Kubernetes way, right? The user experience is now driven through Kubernetes as opposed to a storage admin driving that functionality so it's these three things that make a platform cloud native. >> I want to dig into the operator concept for a little bit here, as it applies to storage. So, first, Operators. I first heard of this a couple years back with the CoreOS folks, who are now part of Red Hat and it's a piece of technology that came into the Kubernetes ecosystem, seems to be very well adopted, they talked about it today on the keynote. And I'd love to hear a little bit more about the ecosystem. But first I want to figure out what it is and in my head, I didn't quite understand it and I'm like, well, okay, automation and life cycle, I get it. There's a bunch of things, Puppet and Chef and Ansible and all sorts of things there. There's also things that know about cloud like Terraform, or Cloudform, or Halloumi, all these sort of things here. But this seems like this is a framework around life cycle, it might be a little higher in the semantic level or knows a little bit more about what's going on inside Kubernetes. >> I'll just touch on this, so Operators, it's a way to codify business logic into the application, so how to manage, how to install, how to manage the life cycle of the application on top of the Kubernetes cluster. So it's a way of automating. >> Right, but-- >> And just to add to that, you mentioned Ansible, Salt, right? So, as engineers, we're always trying to make our lives easier. And so, infrastructure automation certainly is a concept here. What Operators does is it elevates those same needs to more of an application construct level, right? So it's a piece of intelligent software that is watching the entire run-time of an application as opposed to provisioning infrastructure and stepping out of the way. Think of it as a living being, it is constantly running and reacting to what the application is doing and what its needs are. So, on one hand you have automation that sets things up and then the job is done. Here the job is never done, you're sort of, right there as a side car along with the application. >> Nice, but for any sort of life cycle or for any sort of project like this, you have to have code sharing and contributing, right? And so, Julio, can you tell us a little about that? >> What we do is we're obviously all in on Operators. And so we've invested a great deal in terms of documentation and training and workshops. We have certification programs, we're really helping create the ecosystem and facilitate the whole process. You may be familiar, we announced Operator Framework a year ago, it includes Operator SDKs. So we have an Operator SDK for Helm, for Ansible, for Go. We also have announced Operator Life Cycle Manager which does the install, the maintenance and the whole life cycle management process. And then earlier this year we did introduce also, Operatorhub.io which is a community of our Operators, we have about 150 Operators as part of that. >> How does the Operator Framework relate to OpenShare versus upstream Kubernetes? Is it an OpenShift and Red Hat specific thing, or? >> Yes, so, Operatorhub.io is a listing of Operators that includes community Operators. And then we also have certified Operators. And the community Operators run on any Kubernetes instance. The certified Operators make sure that we run on OpenShift specifically. So that's kind of the distinction between those two. >> I remember a Red Hat summit where you talked about some bits. So, give us a little walk around the show, some of the highlights from Operators, the ecosystem, obviously, we've got Portworx here but there's a broad ecosystem. >> Yeah, so we have a huge huge ecosystem. The ISVs play a big part of this. So we've got Operators database partners, security partners, app monitoring partners, storage partners. Yesterday we had an OpenShift commons event, we showcased five of our big Operator partnerships with Couchbase, with MongoDB, with Portworx obviously, with StorageOS and with Dynatrace. But we have a lot of partners in a lot of different areas that are creating these Operators, are certifying them, and they're starting to get a lot of use with customers so it's pretty exciting stuff. >> Gou, I'd love your viewpoint on this because of course, Portworx, good Red Hat partner but you need to work with all the Kubernetes opt-ins out there so, what's the importance of Operators to your business? >> Yeah, you know. OpenShift, obviously, it's one of the leading platforms for Kubernetes out there and so, the reason that is, it's because it's the expectations that it sets to an enterprise customer. It's that Red Hat experience behind it and so the notion of having an Operator that's certified by Red Hat and Red Hat going through the vetting process and making sure that all of the components that it is recommending from its ecosystem that you're putting onto OpenShift, that whole process gives a whole new level of enterprise experience, so, for us, that's been really good, right? Working with Red Hat, going through the process with them and making sure that they are actually double clicking on everything we submit, and there's a real, we iterate with them. So the quality of the product that's put out there within OpenShift is very high. So, we've deployed these Operators now, the Operator that Portworx just announced, right? We have it running in customers' hands so these are real end users, you'll be talking to Ford later on today. Harvard, for example, and so the level of automation that it has provided to them in their platform, it's quite high. >> I was kind of curious to shift maybe to the conference here that you all have a long history. With organizations and both of you personally in the Kubernetes world and cloud native world. We're here at KubeCon CloudNativeCon, North America, 2019. It's pretty big. And I see a lot of folks here, a lot of vendors, a lot of engineers, huge conference, 12,000 people. I mean, any perspective? >> So I've been at Red Hat a little over six years and I was at the very first KubeCon many years ago in San Francisco, I think we had about 200 people there. So this show has really grown over the years. And we're obviously big supporters, we've participated in KubeCon in Shanghai and Barcelona, we're obviously here. We're just super excited about seeing the ecosystem and the whole community grow and expand, so, very exciting. >> Gou? >> Yeah, I mean, like Julio mentioned, right? So, all the way from DockerCon to where we are today and I think last year was 8000 people in Seattle and I think there're probably I've heard numbers like 12? So it's also equally interesting to see the maturity of the products around Kubernetes. And that level of consistency and lack of fracture, right? From mainstream Kubernetes to how it's being adopted in OpenShift, there's consistency across the different Kubernetes platforms. Also, it's very interesting to see how on-prem and public cloud Kubernetes are coexisting. Four years ago we were kind of worried on how that would turn out, but I think it's enabling those hybrid-cloud workloads and I think today in this KubeCon we see a lot of people talking about that and having interest around it. >> That's a really great point there. Julio, want to give you the final word, for people that aren't yet engaged in the ecosystem of Operators, how can they learn more and get involved? >> Yeah, so we're excited to work with everybody, our ecosystem includes customers, partners, contributors, so as long as you're all in on Operators, we're ready to help. We've got tools, we've documentation, we have workshops, we have training, we have certification programs. And we also can help you with go to market. We're very fortunate to have a huge customer footprint, and so for those partners that have solutions, databases, storage solutions, there's a lot of joint opportunities out there that we can participate in. So, really excited to do that. >> Julio, Gou, thank you so much, you have a final word, Gou? >> I was just going to say, so, to follow up on the Operator comment on the certification that Julio mentioned earlier, so the Operator that we have, we were able to achieve level five certification. The level five signifies just the amount of automation that's built into it, so the concept of having Operators help people deploy these complex applications, that's a very important concept in Kubernetes itself. So, glad to be a Red Hat partner. >> That's actually a really good point, we have an Operator maturity model, level one, two, three, four, five. Level one and two are more your installations and upgrades. But the really highly capable ones, the fours and fives, are really to be commended. And Portworx is one of those partners. So we're excited to be here with them. >> That is a powerful statement, we talk about the complexity and how many pieces are in there. Everybody's looking to really help cross that chasm, get the vast majority of people. We need to allow environments to have more automation, more simplicity, a story I heard loud and clear at AnsibleFest earlier this year and through the partner ecosystem. It's good to see progress, so congratulations and thank you both for joining us. >> Thank you, thank you. >> Thank you. >> All right, for John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman, back with lots more here from KubeCon CloudNativeCon 2019, thanks for watching theCUBE. (electronic music)

>> From the SiliconANGLE Media office in Boston, Massachusetts, it's theCUBE! (upbeat electronic music) Now, here's your host, Dave Vellante. >> Hi, everybody, this is Dave Vellante, and I want to share with you some recent survey data that talks to the IBM acquisition of Red Hat, which closed today. It's always really valuable to go out, talk to practitioners, see what they're doing, and it's a hard thing to do. It's very expensive to get this type of survey data. A lot of times, it's very much out of date. You might remember. Some of you might remember a company called the InfoPro. Its founder and CEO was Ken Male, and he raised some money from Gideon Gartner, and he had this awesome survey panel. Well, somehow it failed. Well, friends of mine at ETR, Enterprise Technology Research, have basically created a modern version of the InfoPro. It's the InfoPro on steroids with a modern interface and data science behind it. They've now been at this for 10 years. They built a panel of 4,500 users, practitioners that they can go to, a lot of C level folks, a lot of VP level and then some doers down at the engineering level, and they go out and periodically survey these folks, and one of the surveys they did back in October was what do you think of the IBM-Red Hat acquisition? And then they've periodically gone out and talked to customers of both Red Hat and IBM or both to get a sense of the sentiment. So given that the acquisition closed today, we wanted to share some of that data with you, and our friends at ETR shared with us some of their drill down data with us, and we're going to share it with you. So first of all, I want to summarize something that they said. Back in October, they said, "We view this acquisition as less of an attempt "by IBM to climb into the cloud game, cloud relevance, "but rather a strategic opportunity "to reboot IBM's early 1990s IT services business strategy." I couldn't agree with that more. I've said all along this is a services play connecting OpenShift from Red Hat into the what Ginni Rometty talks about as the 80% of the install base that is still on prem with the workloads at the backend of mission critical systems that need to be modernized. That's IBM's opportunity. That's why this is a front end loaded cashflow deal 'cause IBM can immediately start doing business through it services organization and generate cash. They went on to say, ETR said, "Here, IBM could position itself "as the de facto IT services partner "for Fortune 100 to Global 2000 organizations "and their digital transformations. "Therefore, in theory, this could reinvigorate "the global services business for IBM "and their overlapping customer bases "could alow IBM to recapture and accelerate a great deal "of service revenues that they have lost "over the past few years." Again, I couldn't agree more. It's less about a cloud play. It is definitely about a multi-cloud play, which is how IBM's positioning this, but services de-risks this entire acquisition in my opinion even though it's very large, 34 billion. Okay, I'm show you some data. So pull up this slide. So what ETR does is they'll go out. So this is a survey of right after the acquisition of about 132 Global 2000 practitioners across a bunch of different industries, energy, utilities, financial services, government, healthcare, IT, telco, retail consumers, so a nice cross section of industries and largely in North America but a healthy cross section of AMIA and APAC. And again, these are large enterprises. So what this slide shows is conditioned responses, which I love conditioned responses. It sort of forces people to answer which of the following best describes. But this says, "Given IBM's intent to acquire Red Hat, "do you believe your organization will be more likely "to use this new combination "or less likely in your digital transformation?" You can see here on the left hand side, the green, 23% positive, on the right hand side, 13% negative. So, the data doesn't necessarily support ETR's original conclusions and my belief that this all about services momentum because most IT people are going to wait and see. So you can see the fat middle there is 64%. Basically you're saying, "Yeah, we're going to wait and see. "This really doesn't change anything." But nonetheless, you see a meaningfully more positive sentiment than negative sentiment. The bottom half of this slide shows, the question is, "Do you believe that this acquisition "makes or will make IBM a legitimate competitor "in the cloud wars between AWS and Microsoft Azure?" You can see on the left hand side, it says 45% positive. Very few say, all the way on the left hand side, a very legitimate player in the cloud on par with AWS and Azure. I don't believe that's the case. But a majority said, "IBM is surely better off "with Red Hat than without Red Hat in the context of cloud." Again, I would agree with that. While I think this is largely a services play, it's also, as Stu Miniman pointed out in an earlier video with me, a cloud play. And you can see it's still 38% is negative on the right hand side. 15% absolutely not, IBM is far behind AWS and Azure in cloud. I would tend to agree with that, but IBM is different. They're trying to bring together its entire software portfolio so it has a competitive approach. It's not trying to take Azure and AWS head on. So you see 38% negative, 45% positive. Now, what the survey didn't do is really didn't talk to multi-cloud. This, to me, puts IBM at the forefront of multi-cloud, right in there with VMware. You got IBM-Red Hat, Google with Anthos, Cisco coming at it from a network perspective and, of course, Microsoft leveraging its large estate of software. So, maybe next time we can poke at the multi-cloud. Now, that survey was done of about over 150, about 157 in the Global 2000. Sorry, I apologize. That was was 137. The next chart that I'm going to show you is a sentiment chart that took a pulse periodically, which was 157 IT practitioners, C level executives, VPs and IT practitioners. And what this chart shows essentially is the spending intentions for Red Hat over time. Now, the green bars are really about the adoption rates, and you can see they fluctuate, and it's kind of the percentage on left hand side and time is on the horizontal axis. The red is the replacement. We're going to replace. We're not going to buy. We're going to replace. In the middle is that fat middle, we're going to stay flat. So the yellow line is essentially what ETR calls market share. It's really an indication of mind share in my opinion. And then the blue line is spending intentions net score. So what does that mean? What that means is they basically take the gray, which is staying the same, they subtract out the red, which is we're doing less, and they add in the we're going to do more. So what does this data show? Let's focus on the blue line. So you can see, you know, slightly declining, and then pretty significantly declining last summer, maybe that's 'cause people spend less in the summer, and then really dropping coming into the announcement of the acquisition in October of 2018, IBM announced the $34 billion acquisition of Red Hat. Look at the spike post announcement. The sentiment went way up. You have a meaningful jump. Now, you see a little dip in the April survey, and again, that might've been just an attenuation of the enthusiasm. Now, July is going on right now, so that's why it's phased out, but we'll come back and check that data later. So, and then you can see this sort of similar trend with what they call market share, which, to me, is, again, really mind share and kind of sentiment. You can see the significant uptick in momentum coming out of the announcement. So people are generally pretty enthusiastic. Again, remember, these are customers of IBM, customers of Red Hat and customer of both. Now, let's see what the practitioners said. Let's go to some of the open endeds. What I love about ETR is they actually don't just do the hardcore data, they actually ask people open ended questions. So let's put this slide up and share with you some of the drill down statements that I thought were quite relevant. The first one is right on. "Assuming IBM does not try to increase subscription costs "for RHEL," Red Hat Enterprise Linux, "then its organizational issues over sales "and support should go away. "This should fix an issue where enterprises "were moving away from RHEL to lower cost alternatives "with significant movement to other vendors. "This plus IBM's purchase of SoftLayer and deployment "of CloudFoundry will make it harder "for Fortune 1000 companies to move away from IBM." So a lot implied things in there. The first thing I want to mention is IBM has a nasty habit when it buys companies, particularly software companies, to raise prices. You certainly saw this with SPSS. You saw this with other smaller acquisitions like Ustream. Cognos customers complained about that. IBM buys software companies with large install bases. It's got a lock in spec. It'll raise prices. It works because financially it's clearly worked for IBM, but it sometimes ticks off customers. So IBM has said it's going to keep Red Hat separate. Let's see what it does from a pricing standpoint. The next comment here is kind of interesting. "IBM has been trying hard to "transition to cloud-service model. "However, its transition has not been successful "even in the private-cloud domain." So basically these guys are saying something that I've just said is that IBM's cloud strategy essentially failed to meet its expectations. That's why it has to go out and spend $34 billion with Red Hat. While it's certainly transformed IBM in some respects, IBM's still largely a services company, not as competitive as cloud as it would've liked. So this guys says, "let alone in this fiercely competitive "public cloud domain." They're not number one. "One of the reasons, probably the most important one, "is IBM itself does not have a cloudOS product. "So, acquiring Red Hat will give IBM "some competitive advantage going forward." Interesting comments. Let's take a look at some of the other ones here. I think this is right on, too. "I don't think IBM's goal is to challenge AWS "or Azure directly." 100% agree. That's why they got rid of the low end intel business because it's not trying to be in the commodity businesses. They cannot compete with AWS and Azure in terms of the cost structure of cloud infrastructure. No way. "It's more to go after hybrid multi-cloud." Ginni Rometty said today at the announcement, "We're the only hybrid multi-cloud, opensource vendor out there. Now, the third piece of that opensource I think is less important than competing in hybrid and multi-cloud. Clearly Red hat gives IMB a better position to do this with CoreOS, CentOS. And so is it worth 34 billion? This individual thinks it is. So it's a vice president of a financial insurance organization, again, IBM's strong house. So you can here some of the other comments here. "For customers doing significant business "with IBM Global Services teams." Again, outsourcing, it's a 10-plus billion dollar opportunity for IBM to monetize over the next five years, in my opinion. "This acquisition could help IBM "drive some of those customers "toward a multi-cloud strategy "that also includes IBM's cloud." Yes, it's a very much of a play that will integrate services, Red Hat, Linux, OpenShift, and of course, IBM's cloud, sprinkle in a little Watson, throw in some hardware that IBM has a captive channel so the storage guys and the server guys can sell their hardware in there if the customer doesn't care. So it's a big integrated services play. "Positioning Red Hat, and empowering them "across legacy IBM silos, will determine if this works." Again, couldn't agree more. These are very insightful comments. This is a largely a services and an integration play. Hybrid cloud, multi-cloud is complex. IBM loves complexity. IBM's services organization is number one in the industry. Red Hat gives it an ingredient that it didn't have before other than as a partner. IBM now owns that intellectual property and can really go hard and lean in to that services opportunity. Okay, so thanks to our friends at Enterprise Technology Research for sharing that data, and thank you for watching theCUBE. This is Dave Vellante signing off for now. Talk to you soon. (upbeat electronic music)

>> Live, from Barcelona, Spain, it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe, 2019. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back. This is theCUBE at KubeCon CloudNativeCon 2019 here in Barcelona, Spain. I'm Stu Miniman, my co-host is Corey Quinn and welcoming back to the program, friend of the program, Brian Gracely who is the Director of Product Strategy at Red Hat. Brian, great to see you again. >> I've been, I feel like I've been in the desert. It's three years, I'm finally back, it's good to be back on theCUBE. >> Yeah well, I feel like we've been traveling parallel paths a lot. TheCUBE goes to a lot of events. We do a lot of interviews but I think when you go to shows, you actually have more back-to-back meetings than we even do, so we feel you in the jet lag and a little bit of exhaustion. Thanks for making time. >> Yeah, it's great. I had dinner with you two weeks ago, I did a podcast with Corey a week ago, and now, due to the magic of the internet, we're all here together in one place. It's good. >> Absolutely. Well Brian, as we know at a show like this we all want to hold hands and sing Kubernetes Kumbaya. It's wonderful to see that all of the old fights of the past have all been solved by software in the cloud. >> They're all good, it's all good. Yeah, somebody said it's a cult. I think I heard Owen Rodgers said it's now officially a cult. Corey, you called it the Greek word for spending lots of money. >> Uh yeah, it was named after the Kubernetes, the Greek god of spending money on cloud services. >> So, Brian, you talk to a lot of customers here. As they look at this space, how do they look at it? There's still times that I hear them, "I'm using this technology and I'm using this technology, "and gosh darn it vendor, "you better get together and make this work." So, open-source, we'd love to say is the panacea, but maybe not yet. >> I don't think we hear that as much anymore because there is no more barrier to getting the technology. It's no longer I get this technology from vendor A and I wish somebody else would support the standard. It's like, I can get it if I want it. I think the conversations we typically have aren't about features anymore, they're simply, my business is driven by software, that's the way I interact with my customer, that's the way I collect data from my customers, whatever that is. I need to do that faster and I need to teach my people to do that stuff. So the technology becomes secondary. I have this saying and it frustrates people sometimes, but I'm like, there's not a CEO, a CIO, a CTO that you would talk to that wakes up and says, "I have a Kubernetes problem." They all go, "I have a, I have this business problem, "I have that problem, it happens to be software." Kubernetes is a detail. >> Yeah Brian, those are the same people 10 years ago had a convergent problem, I never ran across them. >> If you screw up a Kubernetes roll-out, then you have a Kubernetes problem. But it's entertaining though. I mean, you are the Director of Product Strategy, which is usually a very hard job with the notable exception of one very large cloud company, where that role is filled by a post-it note that says simply, yes. So as you talk to the community and you look at what's going on, how are you having these conversations inform what you're building in terms of Openshift? >> Yeah, I mean, strategy you can be one of two things. You can either be really good at listening, or you can have a great crystal ball. I think Red Hat has essentially said, we're not going to be in the crystal ball business. Our business model is there's a lot of options, we will go get actively involved with them, we will go scratch our knees and get scars and stuff. Our biggest thing is, I have to spend a lot of time talking to customers going, what do you want to do? Usually there's some menu that you can offer them right now and it's really a matter of, do you want it sort of half-baked? Are you willing to sort of go through the learning process? Do you need something that's a little more finalized? We can help you do that. And our big thing is, we want to put as many of those things kind of together in one stew, so that you're not having-- Not you Stu, but other stews, thinking about like, I don't want to really think about them, I just want it to be monitored, I want the network to just work, I want scalability built in. So for us it's not so much a matter of making big, strategic bets, it's a matter of going, are we listening enough and piecing things together so they go, yeah, it's pretty close and it's the right level of baked for what I want to do right now. >> Yeah, so Brian, an interesting thing there. There's still quite a bit of complexity in this ecosystem. Red Hat does a good job of giving adult supervision to the environment, but, you know, when I used to think when row came out, it was like, okay, great. Back in the day, I get a CD and I know I can run this. Today here, if I talk to every Kubernetes customer that I run across and say okay, tell me your stack and tell me what service measure you're using, tell me which one of these projects you're doing and how you put them together. There's a lot of variation, so how do you manage that, the scale and growth with the individual configurations that everybody still can do, even if they're starting to do public clouds and all those other things? >> So, it's always interesting to me. I watch the different Keynotes and people will talk about all the things in their stack and why they had problems and this, that, and the other, and I kind of look at it and I'm like, we've solved that problem for you. Our thing is always, and I don't mean that sort of boastfully, but like, we put things together in what we think are pretty good defaults. It's the one probably big difference between Openshift and a lot of these other ones that are here is that we've put all those things together as sort of what we think are pretty good defaults. We allow some flexibility. So, you don't like the monitoring, you don't like Prometheus plugin splunk, that's fine. But we don't make you stand on your head. So for us, a lot of these problems that, our customers don't go, well, we can't figure out the stack, we can't do these things, they're kind of built in. And then their problem becomes okay, can I highly automate that? Did I try and make too many choices where you let me plug things in? And for us, what we've done, is I think if we went back a few years, people could say you guys are too modular, you're too plugable. We had to do that to kind of adapt to the market. Now we've sort of learned over time, you want to be immutable, you want to give them a little less choice. You want to really, no, if you're going to deploy an AWS, you got to know AWS really well. And that's, you know, not to make this a commercial, but that's basically what Openshift four became, was much more opinions about what we think are best practices based on about a thousand customers having done this. So we don't run into as many of pick your stack things, we run into that next level thing. Are we automating it enough? Do we scale it? How do we do statefulness? Stuff like that. >> Yeah, I'm curious in the Keynote this morning they called, you know, Kubernetes is a platform of platforms. Did that messaging resonate with you and your customers? >> Yeah, I think so, I mean, Kubernetes by itself doesn't really do anything, you need all this other stuff. So when I hear people say we deployed Kubernetes, I'm like, no you don't. You know, it's the engine of what you do, but you do a bunch of other stuff. So yeah, we like to think of it as like, we're platform builders, you should be a platform consumer, just like you're a consumer of Salesforce. They're a platform, you consume that. >> Yeah, one of the points made in the Keynote was how one provider, I believe it was IBM, please yell at me if I got that one wrong, talks about using Kubernetes to deploy Kubernetes. Which on the one hand, is super cool and a testament to the flexibility of how this is really working. On the other, it's-- and thus the serpent devours itself, and it becomes a very strange question of, okay, then we're starting to see some weird things. Where do we start, where do we look? Indeed.com for a better job. And it's one of those problems that at some point you just can't manage a head around complexities inside of complexities, but we've been dealing with that for 40 years. >> Yeah, Kubernetes managing Kubernetes is kind of one of those weird words like serverless, you're like what does that mean? I don't, it doesn't seem to, I don't think you mean what you want it to mean. The simplest way we explain that stuff, so... A couple of years ago there was a guy named Brandon Philips who had started a company called CoreOS. He stood up at Kube-- >> I believe you'll find it's pronounce CoreOS, but please, continue. >> CoreOS, exactly. Um, he stood up in the Seattle one when there was a thousand people at this event or 700, and he said, "I've created this pattern, "or we think there's a pattern that's going to be useful." The simplest way to think of it is, there's stuff that you just want to run, and I want essentially something monitoring it and keep it in a loop, if you will. Kubernetes just has that built in. I mean, it's kind of built in to the concept because originally Google said, "I can't manage it all myself." So that thing that he originally came up with or codified became what's now called operators. Operators is that thing now that's like okay, I have a stateful application. It needs to do certain things all the time, that's the best practice. Why don't we just build that around it? And so I think you heard in a lot of the Keynotes, if you're going to run storage, run it as an operator. If you're going to run a database, run it as an operator. It sounds like inception, Kubernetes running-- It's really just, it's a health loop that's going on all the time with a little bit of smarts that say hey, if you fail, fail this way. I always use the example like if I go to Amazon and get RDS, I don't get a DVA, there's no guy that shows up and says, "Hey, I'm your DVA." You just get some software that runs it for you. That's all this stuff is, it just never existed in Kubernetes before. Kubernetes has now matured enough to where they go, oh, I can play in that world, I can make that part of what I do. So it's less scary, it sounds sort of weird, inception-y. It's really just kind of what you've already gotten out of the public cloud now brought to wherever you want it. >> Well, one of the concerns that I'm starting to see as well is there's a level of hype around this. We've had a lot of conversations around Kubernetes today and yesterday, to the point where you can almost call this Kubernetes and friends instead of CloudNativeCon. And everyone has described it slightly differently. You see people describing it as systemd, as a kernel, sometimes as the way and the light, and someone on stage yesterday said that we all are familiar with the value that Kubernetes has brought to our jobs and our lives, is I think was the follow-up to that, which is a little strange. And I got to thinking about that. I don't deny that it has brought value, but what's interesting to me about this is I don't think I've heard two people define its value in the same terminology at all, and we've had kind of a lot of these conversations. >> So obviously not a cult because they would all be on message if it was a cult. >> Yeah, yeah yeah yeah. >> It's a cult with very crappy brand control, maybe. We don't know. >> I always just explain it that like, you know, if I went back 10 years or something, people... Any enterprise said hey, I would love to run like Google or like Amazon. Apparently for every one admin, I can manage a thousand servers and in their own data centers it's like well, I have one guy and he manages five, so I have cloud envy. >> We tried to add a sixth and he was crushed to death. Turns out those racks have size and weight limits. >> That's right, that's right. And so, people, they wanted this thing, they would've paid an arm and a leg for it. You move forward five years from that and it's like oh, Google just gave you their software, it's now available for free. Now what are you going to do with it? I gave you a bunch of power. So yeah, depending on how much you want to drink the Kool-Aid you're like, this is awesome, but at the end of the day you're just like, I just want the stuff that is available to, that's freely, publicly available, but for whatever reason, I can't be all in on one cloud, or I can't be all in on a public cloud, which, you believe in that there's tons of economic value about it, there's just some companies that can't do that. >> And I fully accept that. My argument has always been that it is, I think it's a poor best practice. When you have a constraint that forces you to be in multiple cloud providers, yes, do it! That makes absolute perfect sense. >> Right, if it makes sense, do it. And that's kind of what we've always said look, we're agnostic to that. If you want to run it, if you want to run it in a disconnected mode on a cruise ship, great, if it makes sense for you. If you need to run, you know, like... The other thing that we see-- >> That cruise ship becomes a container ship. >> Becomes a container ship. I had an interesting conversation with the bank last night. I had dinner with the bank. We were talking, they said, look, I run some stuff locally where I'm at, 'cause I have to, and then, we put a ton of stuff in AWS. He told me this story about a batch processing job that cost him like $4 or $5 million today. He does a variant of it in Lambda, and it cost him like $50 a month. So we had this conversation and it's going like, I love AWS, I want to be all in at AWS. And he said, here's my problem. I wake up every morning worried that I'm going to open the newspaper and Amazon, not AWS, Amazon is going to have moved closer into the banking industry than they are today. And so I have to have this kind of backup plan if you will. Backup's the wrong word, but sort of contingency plan of if they stop being my technology partner and they start becoming my competitor, which, there's arguments-- >> And for most of us I'd say that's not a matter of if, but when. >> Right, right. And some people live with it great. Like, Netflix lives with it, right? Others struggle. That guy's not doing multi-cloud in the future, he's just going, I would like to have the technology that allows me if that comes along. I'm not doing it to do it, I'd like the bag built in. >> So Brian, just want to shift a little bit off of kind of the mutli-cloud discussion. The thing that's interest me a lot, especially I've talked to a number of the Openshift customers, it is historically, infrastructure was the thing that slowed me down. We understand, oh, I want to modernize that. No, no wait. The back in thing or you know, provisioning, these kind of things take forever. The lever of this platform has been, I can move faster, I can really modernize my environment, and, whether that's in my data center or in one public cloud and a couple of others, it is that you know, great lever to help me be able to do that. Is that the right way to think about this? You've talked to a lot of customers. Is that a commonality between them? >> I think we see, I hate to give you a vendor answer, but we tend to see different entry points. So for the infrastructure people, I mean the infrastructure people realize in some cases they're slow, and a lot of cases the ones that are still slow, it's 'cause of some compliance thing. I can give you a VM in an hour, but I got to go through a process. They're the ones that are saying, look, my developers are putting stuff in containers or we're downloading, I just need to be able to support that. The developers obviously are the ones who are saying, look, business need, business problem, have budget to do something, That's usually the more important lever. Just faster infrastructure doesn't do a whole lot. But we find more and more where those two people have to be in the room. They're not making choices independently. But the ones that are successful, the ones that you hear case studies about, none of them are like, we're great at building containers. They're great at building software. Development drives it, infrastructure still tends to have a lot of the budget so they play a role in it, but they're not dictating where it goes or what it does. >> Yeah, any patterns you're seeing or things that customers can do to kind of move further along that spectrum? >> I think, I mean there's a couple of things, and whether you fit in this or not, number one, nobody has a container problem. Start with a business problem. That's always good for technology in general, but this isn't a refresh thing, this is some business problem. That business problem typically should be, I have to build software faster. We always say... I've seen enough of these go well and I've seen enough go poorly. There's, these events are great. They're great in the sense of people see that there's progress, there's innovation. They're also terrible because if you walk into this new, you feel like, man, everybody understands this, it must be pretty simple. And what'll happen is they start working on it and they realize, I don't know what I'm doing. Even if they're using Openshift and we made it easy, they don't know what they're doing. And then they go, I'm embarrassed to ask for help. Which is crazy because if you get into open source the community's all there to help. So it's always like, business problem, ask for help early and often, even if it embarrasses you. Don't go after low-hanging fruit, especially if you're trying to get further investment. Spinning up a bunch of web clusters or hello worlds doesn't, nobody cares anymore. Go after something big. It basically forces your organization to be all in. And then the other thing, and this is the thing that's never intuitive to IT teams, is you, at the point where you actually made something work, you have to look more like my organization than yours, which is basically you have to look like a software marketing company, because internally, you're trying to convince developers to come use your platform or to build faster or whatever, you actually have to have internal evangelist and for a lot of them, they're like, dude, marketing, eh, I don't want anything to do with that. But it's like, that's the way you're going to get people to come to your new way of doing things. >> Great points, Brian. I remember 15 years ago, it was the first time I was like wait, the CIO has a marketing person under him to help with some of those transformations? Some of the software roles to do. >> Yeah, it's the reason they all want to come and speak at Keynotes and they get at the end and they go, we're hiring. It's like, I got to make what I'm doing sound cool and attract 8,000 people to it. >> Well absolutely it's cool here. We really appreciate Brian, you sharing all the updates here. >> Great to see you guys again. It's good to be back. >> Definitely don't be a stranger. So for Corey Quinn, I'm Stu Miniman. Getting towards the end. Two days live, wall-to-wall coverage here at KubeCon, CloudNativeCon 2019. Thanks for watching theCUBE. (rhythmic music)

>> Announcer: Live from Boston, Massachusetts, it's theCUBE. Covering Red Hat Summit 2019. Brought to you by Red Hat. >> Good to have you back here on theCube we are live in Boston at the Convention Center here. Along with Stu Miniman, I'm John Walls and on theCUBE we're continuing our coverage of Red Hat Summit 2019 in Boston, as I said. Joined now by Reza Shafii, who is the VP of Platform Services at Red Hat. Former CoreOS guy >> That's right. >> Stu actually has his CoreOS socks on, >> He told me. >> Today, yeah, so he came dressed for the occasion. >> Shh, can't see those on camera, John. I can't be wearing vendor here. >> Don't show it to the camera. >> Well I just say they're cool! They're cool. Glad to have you with us, Reza. And first off, your impression, you have a big announcement, right, with OpenShift. OpenShift 4 being launched officially on the keynote stage today. That's some big news, right? >> It's a big deal, it's a big deal. The way I think about it is that it's really a culmination of the efforts that we planned out when we sat down between the CoreOS leadership team and the Red Hat leadership team, when the acquisition was closed. And we planned this out, I remember a meeting we had in the white board room. We planned this out. In terms of bringing the best of OpenShift and CoreOS technology together. And it's really great to see it out there on the keynote, and actually all demoed and working. >> And working, right? Key part. >> Reza, dig in for us a little bit here, because it's one thing to say okay, we got a white board and we put things together. You know, when I looked at both companies, at first both, CoreOS before the acquisition and Red Hat, I mean open source, absolutely as its core. I remember talking to the CoreOS team, I'm like, you guys are gonna build a whole bunch of really cool tools, but what's the business there? Do you guys think you're gonna be the next Red Hat? Come on. Well, now you're part of Red Hat. So, give us a little bit of the insight as to what it took to get from there to the announcements, CoreOS infused in many of the pieces that we heard announced this week. >> Yeah, so the way I like to think about it is that Red Hat's OpenShift's roots, it started with making sure that they create a really nice comfortable surface area for the deaf teams. The deaf teams can go in and start pushing the applications and it just ensures that it's running those applications in the right way. The CoreOS roots came from the operations perspective and the system administrator. We always looked at the world from the system administrator. Yes, you're right, CoreOS had a number of technologies they were working on, etcd, Rocket, clair. I used to joke that there's a constellation of open source services that we're working on, but where is the one product? And, towards the end, right before the acquisition, the one product I think was pretty clear is Tectonic, the Kubernetes software. Now, if you look at Tectonic, the key value difference was automated operations. The core tenants of what Alex Polvi and Brandon Philips said into the mindset of the company was we're outnumbered, the number of machines out there is going to be way more than we can handle, therefore we need to automate all operations. They started that on the operating system itself, with CoreOS, the namesake of the company. And then they brought that to Kubernetes. What you see with OpenShift is, OpenShift 4, you see us bringing that to, not only the Kubernetes core, that's the foundation of OpenShift 4, so all capabilities of running Kubernetes are automated with 20 plus operators now. But you see that apply to all the other value capabilities that are on top of OpenShift as well, and we're bringing that to ISV. I was walking around and a number of ISV's have their operators as the number one thing they're advertising. So you're seeing automated operations really take hold and with OpenShift 4 being a foundation for that. >> You talk about operations or operators, you have Operator Hub that was launched earlier this year, what was the driving force behind that? And then ultimately what are you trying to get out of that in terms of advancement and going forward here? >> Right, I think it means it's worked. Going back a little bit of history on this, the operator pattern was coined at CoreOS as a way to do things on a Kubernetes cluster to automate operations. The right way. You have to expose it as a proper API, you have to use a controller, so on and so forth. Then as the team started doing that we realized well there's a lot of demand for this pattern, we started documenting it, describing it better and so on. But then we realized there's a good case for a framework to help people build these automations. Therefore we announced the operator framework at Cubeacon. I think it was a year and a half ago. What happened then was interesting, suddenly we started seeing hundreds plus operators being built on the operator framework. But, it was hard because you could see five Redis operators, 10 MySQL operators. It was hard for our customers to know where can I find the right set of operators that have the right functionality and how do they compare to each other? OperatorHub.IO is a registry that we launched together with AWS, Google and Microsoft to solve for that problem. Now that we have a way to create operators easily and capture that automated operations, we have sort of created a pattern and a framework around it, where do you go to find the right set of operators. >> It's an interesting point because if you look in the container space, especially Kubernetes, it's like, okay well what's standardized, what works across all of these environments? We always worry, I've probably got some pain from previous projects and foundations as to well what's certified and what's not and how do we do that? So, did I see there's a certification now for operators and how do you balance that we need it to work everywhere, we don't wanna have it's Red Hat's building an open ecosystem not something that's limited to only this? >> Yes. So OperatorHub.IO is a community initiative. And, every operator you find on there should work on any Kubernetes. So in fact as part of the vetting process we make sure that that's the case. And then on the certification we launched today, actually, and you can see a number of, we have already 20 plus operators that are certified. This is where we take it a step further and we work with the vendors to make sure that it works on OpenShift. It's following a number of guidelines that we have, in terms of using, for example, Rail as the basis. They work with us to run the updates through security checks and so on. And that's just to give our enterprise customers more levels of guarantees and validation, if they would like to. >> So what are they getting out of that, out of the certification system? What, I guess, stability and certainty and all those kinds of things that I'm looking for, standardization of some kind, is that what's driving that? >> It's simple, at the end of the day they got three things. They get automated updates that are pushed through the OpenShift update mechanism. So if you are using the Redis one, for example, and it's certified, you're gonna be able to update the Redis operator through the same cluster administration mechanism, then you would apply it to the entire cluster itself. You see updates from Redis come in, you can put it through the same approval work so on, so on. The second is they get support. So they get first line of support from Red Hat. They can call Red Hat, our customers and actually we work with them on that. And the third is that they actually get that security vulnerability scans that we put them through to make sure that they pass certain checks. And actually one last one, they also get Rail as the basis of the operator, so, yup. >> Reza, help bring us into the customer point of view. What does all this mean to them, what are the big challenges, how do they modernize their applications and get more applications moving along this path? >> Yeah, in this case the operator customer is mainly the infrastructure administrators. It's important to point that out. The developers will get some benefit on that in that it's self service, so the provision, but there's other ways to do that as well. You can go to a Helm chart, deploy that Helm chart, you get that level of self service automated provisioning. To go ahead and configure for example, a charted MongoDB database on a Kubernetes cluster, you have to create something like 20 different objects. And then to update that to change the charts, you have to go and modify all those 20 different objects. Let's just stay at that level alone. An operator makes that before different parameters on a yaml file that you change. The operator takes that and applies all these configurations for you. So, it's all about simplifying the life of the infrastructure administrators. I truly believe that operators, human operators, infrastructure administrators are one of the least appreciated personas right now that we have out there. They're not the most important ones, but there is a lot of pain points and challenges that they have we're not really thinking about too much. And I think OpenShift goes a long way and operators go a long way to actually start thinking about their pain point as well. >> So what do you think their reaction was this morning when they're looking, first off, the general announcement, right? And then some of the demonstrations and all those things that are occurring? Is there, do you have or are you talking to customers? Are you getting the sense of relief or of anticipation or expectation? I mean, how would you characterize that? >> Think they're falling into a couple of different buckets. There's the customers we've talked to, for awhile now, that know this stuff, so this is not super new to them, but they're very happy to see it. There's one big automaker that's a customer of us and the main human operator was telling me awhile ago that he does not want any service on the cluster unless it has an operator, this is a year and a half ago. And he kept pushing me well I want a Kafka one and I want an Elasticsearch one, and you know. And we, CoreOS, were too small to try to build that ourselves. Obviously that's not, we can't maintain a Kafka operator and a CoreOS one. Now, he's able to go to our operator APP, he's gonna be able to get a Kafka operator that's maintained by Kafka experts. He's gonna be able to get a Redis operator that's maintained by Redis experts. So that bucket of customers are super happy. And then there's another one that's just starting to understand the power of all this. And I think they're just starting to kick the tires and play around with this. Hopefully they will get to the same point as the first bucket of customers, and be asking for everything to be operator based all the time. >> Convert the tire kickers, you're gonna be okay, right? >> That's right. >> Thank you for the time. >> Thank you. >> We appreciate that and continued success at Red Hat, and, once again, good to see you. >> Thank you, always a pleasure. >> You bet. Live, here on theCUBE, you're watching Red Hat Summit 2019. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Narrator: Live from Boston, MA it's theCUBE covering Red Hat Summit 2019. Brought to you by Red Hat. (upbeat music continues) >> It is so good to have you back with us here on theCUBE as we continue our live coverage here at the BCEC at Red Hat Summit 2019. Glad to have you watching wherever you might be, Eastern Time Zone or maybe out West. Stu Miniman, John Walls here. Our coverage continuing; sixth year we've been at this summit. Eric Kern now joins us here. Both from Lenovo, Eric and Steve Brown. Eric is the Executive Distinguished Engineer. And Steve is the Managing Partner in the Software Business Unit and the DevOps practice leader. So gentlemen good to have you with us on theCUBE. Good to see you today! >> Thanks for having us. >> Thank you. >> No surprise, right, that you're here; long term partnership, very successful get together. First off, I want your ideas or your impressions of what you've hear or what you've seen so far here in the day and a half that we've been underway. And whether it's keynote or maybe one of the side sessions, just what's your first impression of what's goin' on here? >> Yeah, I mean it's great. There's a lot of people here, a lot of activity. I mean we can see the Expo behind us. You know the food is great, lunch is great so- (laughter) >> Rub it in. (laughter continues) Rub it in just a little bit. Okay, so a little bit of news this week with regard to what you're up to. And if you would, I'm not gonna ask you to go terribly deep, but just give us an idea of what some of the headlines are you guys were sending out this week. Steve, why don't you take that? >> Yeah, so this week we announced six new reference designs and solutions, engineered solutions. But pretty excited about OpenShift 4 and certainly Rel8 after a five year I guess pause, if you will, on major releases. So that's exciting. >> So, Eric, why don't we start with building on those partnerships, talk about some of the solutions your talking to customers and some of the latest and greatest? There's a lot of interesting things we're doing; one of the things we've been doing recently is around TruScale. So TruScale is our infrastructure as a service on premise. So one of the things we do with it is we build overall solutions. So there's a number of reference architectures that we talked about with Red Hat. These solutions, think about them as having an overall CapEx price and then we convert that into a OpEx price. Probably one of the neat novel things, and this is kind of the area that I really got into, right, is around how do we build a metering system that doesn't require us to install a bunch of software and can be compatible with everything? So with TruScale what we've done is we've leveraged our what's called our xclarity controller, it's the chip basically on the motherboard, and that xclarity controller has the ability to measure power. And measure power both at the overall input consumption, as well measuring power in the CPU, the memory and the eye out. And we built an infrastructure around that. We can actually tell you exactly what percentage the system is being used and consumed based on that. And we can charge for the overall system on a monthly basis. So we have a portal that's set up for that, whether it be our hardware on its own or our hardware with the Red Hat software installed on top of it. >> So how's that effect the customer relationship then? All the sudden your- whether there was a- not I'd say a dispute, but might of been questions about how much usage am I getting? How am I using this? Why am I being billed as I'm being billed? So on and so forth. Now all the sudden you can just deliver the proof's in the pudding, right? You can say this is exactly what you're doing with this, this is exactly how much you're consuming. And I would assume from a pricing standpoint for that modeling standpoint, you give everybody a lot of comfort, I would think; right? >> You do, right. Not only do they see exactly what they're being charged for, they see exactly some of the usage on their own systems. A lot of times they don't know how well-balanced or unbalanced their systems are. And so we're actually providing real usage data. It's different than what you get in public cloud. It's different in what you get in other solutions where it's virtual allocation. So there's a difference in knowing the physical utilization versus the allocated utilization. What a lot of people do, a lot of companies do when they're renting public cloud infrastructure is they spend a lot of time in automation to actually deallocate. Right, so they're doing all this work just to try to save money. Whereas in the TruScale model, you just run it like you normally run it and you save money because you know, if you're not using it, you're not paying for it. >> John: You don't pay for it. >> Exactly, exactly. >> All right, well Steve, a lot of discussion at the show this week about OpenShift, not least this morning, OpenShift 4 was released. We've had a chance to talk to a number of customers, bring us inside, you know, Lenovo's worked with OpenShift for awhile. Oftentimes we think about the application layers like oh, it's totally divorced, I don't need to think of it. Well, we understand there's integration work that happens there and would love your insight into what is happening at he integration, where it's progressed, and any customer stories that you've got along those lines. >> Well, yeah, we've been doing a lot of work with OpenShift. I would say for an upwards of more than two years. We started with Intel and Red Hat and built a number of Intel Select solutions, reference designs, both bare metal and hyper converged. We are on our fifth edition now of the OpenShift design on Cascade Lake. We're the, I wanna say the pioneers in the industry. We have a center of competency in DevOps with software to really promote software development solutions. And we're excited with OpenShift 4 because of the CoreOS integration as well as the auto-provisioning. Key things, it makes it so much easier to adopt and integrate. >> Any customer deployments? When they come to you, what's the kind of a-ha moment that they have? Is it just the agility that it brings them? Is there anything you can share as to the customers that are actually doing this in the field? >> Well, I like to think the customers get the a-ha when they realize that there is an engineered platform that's been purpose built and they're not coddling software and tools together. It helps with the CI/CD pipeline process templating much more effectively. Overall it's, I think, a lot more streamlined than it was in the earlier editions of OpenShift, especially Open Source. So we're pretty excited with comprehensive business support. I think that businesses feel comfortable. >> Kind of a simple question, but what do you, in terms of what TruScale operates now, what is the- what are you allowing people to do now that they didn't do before? In the latest version here, what exactly is- where's, you think, this improvement? Or where's the new efficiency? What are they getting out of it that would make me, as a customer, have that- if I haven't converted yet, or if I'm perhaps ripe for the taking, what would make me jump? >> Part of it is customers don't want to be managing their infrastructure. And so this there's a big push to public cloud. They just wanna be managing their applications. They just wanna focus on what's paying the bills, right? And paying the bills are providing the IT service is all in the application layer for the most part. What TruScale allows them to do is to have that public cloud kind of management platform. So it's Lenovo premium support behind the scenes; so Lenovo is managing the hardware itself, Lenovo maintains the ownership of the hardware, so they're not even owning the hardware, very similar to public cloud. And they can go and use it on FREM. So they don't have to worry about any security issues with the public cloud. They don't have to worry about any kind of network issues, right, it's all in their data center. It's running just exactly the way they'd run CapEx, but they're running in the way that they have really liked with the public cloud infrastructure. >> So confidence, comfort, security and all that stuff right? >> Eric: There ya go. Yeah. >> Yeah, that's just- I'll pay for that! >> Sure! (laughter) So, we've seen software move heavily towards this model whether it be SaaS or various moving CapEx to OpEx. When I look at infrastructure it's been a little bit of a slower move, especially, I've got some background on the storage side, if you look at storage, it's like oh okay. I'm conditioned as a customer to think about my capacity, my performance, and how I'm tuning everything, and I need to make adjustments, and making changes usually takes a little bit longer. Red Hat's got a lot of software products in the storage space. Help us understand how this fits in and are customers gettin' more comfortable moving from the CapEx to the OpEx for their uses? >> Yeah, good segue. So Ceph and Gluster are some really interesting storage products from Red Hat. And they fit right on our servers, and so we install them; we build big solutions around both of them. I'm actually working on big architecture for another company, for another customer out in Germany. So it's huge stuff cluster. The neat thing about it is our TruScale model allows us to actually sell them on OpEx in a storage product. And what we're measuring is the storage, what I call storage in motion versus the storage at rest. So we see all the different usages of the different servers. The servers are acting as controllers, a multi-tenant controller. And there's a lot of information that's being stored and transmitted through the systems. TruScale's just accumulating all the usage of that. And Steve, maybe you want to talk about some of the software side of it from the storage perspective, but it's really, TruScale fits right in real nicely with the storage side of it. >> I'd actually like to talk about it more comprehensively from the Red Hat software side of it. Anywho, let's talk about how they're already no certification needed. We're looking at all Red Hat applications on TruScale; whether it's OpenShift, or Rel8, Gluster, Ceph, Ansible. So we're really excited because we're not limited in the portfolio. >> Exactly. Exactly. >> Yeah. >> So, Steve, it's interesting, you used to think about, okay, what boxes am I buying, what license I'm doing. If you talk about a real true software world it should be a platform that unifies these things together. So it sounds like you're saying we're getting there. I shouldn't have to think about- give us a little bit, kind of the old way and where customers are seeing it today. >> Yeah, well we're not getting there. We're there. What that allows us to do is to take the reference designs that we have and the testing that we've previously validated with Intel and Red Hat and be able to snap pieces together. So it's just a matter of what's different and unique for the client and the client's situation and their growth pattern. What's great about TruScale is that in this model we can predicatively analyze their consumption forward based on the business growth. So for example, if you're using OpenShift and you start with a small cluster for one or two lines of business, as they adopt DevOps methodologies going from either Waterfall or Agile, we can predicatively analyze the consumption forward that they're gonna need. So they can plan years in advance as they progress. And as such, the other snap-ins, say storage, that they're gonna need for data in motion or data at rest. So it's actually smarter. And what that ends up doing is obviously saving them money, but it saves them time. The typical model is going back to IT and saying we need these severs, we need the storage and the software, and bolt it altogether. And the IT guys are hair on fire running around already. So they can, as long as IT approves it, they can sort of bypass that big, heavy lift. >> So from what you've heard of this week, with Rel8, the big launch last night, a lot of fun, right? >> Steve: Yeah. >> And then OpenShift 4 earlier today talked about- >> Yeah. >> What if there are elements to those two, either one of them, that you find most attractive? Or that really kinda jump off the page to you? Is there anything out there that you're seein' or through the demos that we saw today, or last night even that you think wow, that's cool, that's good, that this is gonna be useful for us? >> OpenShift is one of the things that we're seeing in the industry that's just really enabling the whole DevOps practice. So OpenShift is interesting from the perspective of flexibility, automation, the tooling. Rel8, of course, we've all been waiting for it, I guess for a while now probably. >> Host: Right. >> It's just the next level, the next generation. The Red Hat software, see I'm a big fan of Ceph. I mean I just like Ceph, it's just a neat storage product. It's been around for awhile, but it keeps getting better. It's kinda like the old storage product that first came out with some soft-refined storage. But the whole ecosystem around Red Hat is just very appealing. I actually, Cloudforms is one I think is a little under-utilized today. Cloudforms is a real nice cloud management platform as well. So there's a lot of interesting Red Hat software. Steve, we've done all these reference architectures, are there any ones that stick out to you? I've just been kind of rattling off some of the ones that I like. >> Yeah, I really like the CoreOS integration, 'cause we now see that acquisition really taking shape in a true productization sense, in a practical use sense. I think with Red Hat owning that asset and controlling the development, they can build out features as needed. They're not having to wait on the ecosystem or to spin different cycles for growth. So I think that's my highlight. I've been looking for that. And auto-provisioning as well. I think that's a really key benefit to it, just to make things more smooth and simple. >> Well gentlemen, thanks for the time. >> Guest: Sure. >> Nice to meet you. Look forward to seeing you down the road. We were talkin' about Lenovo, Stu and I were there a couple of years ago, Ashton Kutcher out in San Francisco, so now we get the two of you guys. You're right there with Ashton, right? (laughter) >> That's right. >> Same celebrity! Thanks for sharing the time. Good to see you guys. >> Eric: Thank you. >> Steve: You too. >> Back with more live here at Red Hat Summit 2019, we're in Boston, and you're watching theCube. (electronic music)

>> From the SiliconANGLE media office, in Boston, Massachusetts, it's the CUBE. Now, here's your host, Stu Miniman. Hi, CUBE nation, I'm Sam Kahane. Thanks for watching the CUBE. Due to popular demand from the community, I will be interviewing the legendary Stu Miniman, here today. He is S-T-U on Twitter. Stu and I are going to be digging in to the 2019 predictions, and also recapping 2018 for you here. So, Stu, let's get into it a little bit. 2018, can you set the stage? How many events did you go to? How many interviews did you conduct? >> Boy, Sam, it's tough to look back. We did so much with the CUBE this year. I, personally, did over 20 shows, and somewhere between 400 and 450 interviews, out of, we as a team did over a 100 shows, over 2000 interviews. So, really great to be in the community, and immerse ourselves, drink from the fire hose, and some of the data. (laughs) >> So, over 400 interviews this year, that's amazing. What about some of the key learnings from 2018? Yeah, Sam,my premise when I'm going out is, how are we maturing? My background, as you know, Sam, I'm an infrastructure guy. My early training was in networking. I worked on virtualization, and I've been riding this wave of cloud for about the last 10 years. So, about two years ago, it was, software companies, how are they living in these public clouds? Amazon, of course, the dominant player in the marketplace, but we know it will be a multi-cloud world. And the update, for 2018, is we've gone from, how do I live in those public clouds, to how are we maturing? We call it hybrid clouds, or multi-cloud, but living between these worlds. We saw the rise in Kubernetes, as a piece of it, but customers have lots of environments, and how they get their arms around that, is a serious challenge out there, today. So, how are the suppliers and communities, and the systems integration, helping customers with this really challenging new environment, that we have today. >> I'd love to hear any OMG moments from you. What surprised you the most this year? >> It's interesting, when I wanna think about some of the big moves in the industry, I mean, we had the largest software acquisition in tech history. IBM, the company you used to work for, Sam, buying Red Hat, a company I've worked with, for about 20 years, for 34 billion dollars. I mean, Red Hat has been the poster child for open source, and the exemplar of that. It was something that was like, wow, this is a big deal. We've been talking for a long time, how important developers are, and how important open source is, and there's nothing like seeing Big Blue, a 107-year-old company, putting in huge dollars, to really, not just validate, cause IBM's been working in open source, working with Linux for a long time, but how important this is to the future. And that sits right at that core of that multi-cloud world. Red Hat wants to position itself to live in a lot of those environments, not just for Linux, but the Middleware, Kubernetes is a big play. We saw a number of acquisitions in the space there. Red Hat bought CoreOS for $250 million. VMware bought Heptio, and was kind of surprised, at the sticker shock, $550 million. Great team, we know the Heptio team well. We talked to them, some of the core people, back when they were at Google. But, some big dollars are being thrown around, in this space, and, as you said, the big one in the world is Amazon. One of the stories that everybody tracked all year was the whole hq2 thing. It kind of struck me as funny, as Amazon is in Seattle. I actually got to visit Seattle, for the first time, this year, and somebody told me, if you look at the top 50 companies that have employees in Seattle, of course, Amazon is number one, but you need to take number two through 43, and add them together, to make them as big as Amazon. Here in Boston, there's a new facility going up, with 5,000 employees. I know they're going to have 25,000 in Long Island City, right in the Queens, in New York City, as well as Crystal City, right outside of DC, 25,000. But, the realization is that, of course, Amazon's going to have data centers, in pretty much every country, and they're going to have employees all around the world. This doesn't just stay to the US, but Amazon, overall. So, Amazon, just a massive employer. I know so many people who have joined them. (laughs) Some that have left them. But, almost everything that I talk about, tends to come back to Amazon, and what there are doing, or how people are trying to compete, or live in that ecosystem. >> You're always talking to the community. What are some of the hottest topics you're hearing out there? >> So, living in this new world, how are we dealing with developers? A story that I really liked, my networking background, the Cisco DevNet team, led by Suzie Wee, is a really phenomenal example, and one of my favorite interviews of the year. I actually got to talk to Suzie twice this year. We've known her for many years. She got promoted to be a Senior Vice President, which is a great validation, but what she built is a community from the ground up. It took about four years to build this platform, and it's not about, "Oh, we have some products, and developers love it.", but it's the marketplace that they live in, really do have builders there. It's the most exciting piece of what's happening at Cisco. My first show for 2019 will be back at Cisco, live in Barcelona, and Cisco going through this massive transformation, to be the dominant networking company. When they talk about their future, it is as a software company. That actually, it blew my mind, Sam. You know, Cisco is the networking company. When they say, "When you think of us, "five to ten years from now, "you won't think of us as a networking company. "You'll think of us as a software company." That's massive. They were one of the four horsemen of the internet era. And, if Cisco is making that change, everything changes. IBM, people said if they don't make this move for Red Hat, is there danger in the future? So, everything is changing so fast, it is one of the things that everybody tries to sort out and deal with. I've got some thoughts on that, which I'm sure we'll get to later on. >> (laughs) As is Suzie Wee one of your top interviews of 2018, could you give your top three interviews? >> First of all, my favorite, Sam, is always when I get to talk to the practitioners. A few of the practitioners I love talking to, at the Nutanix show in New Orleans this year, I talked to Vijay Luthra, with Northern Trust. My co-host of the show was Keith Townsend. Keith, Chicago guy, said, "Northern Trust is one "of the most conservative financial companies", and they are all-in on containerization, modernized their application. It is great to see a financial company that is driving that kind of change. That's kind of a theme I think you'll see, Sam. Another, one, was actually funny enough, Another Nutanix show, at London, had the Manchester City Council. So, the government, what they're doing, how they're driving change, what they're doing with their digital transformation, how they're thinking of IOT. Some of my favorite interviews I've done the last few years, have been in the government, because you don't think of government as innovating, but, they're usually resource-constrained. They have a lot of constituencies, and therefore, they need to do this. The Amazon public sector show was super-impressive. Everything from, I interviewed a person from the White House Historical Society. They brought on Jackie O's original guidebook, of being able to tour the White House. So, some really cool human interest, but it's all a digital platform on Amazon. What Amazon is doing in all of the industry-specific areas, is really impressive. Some of these smaller shows that we've done, are super-impressive. Another small show, that really impressed me, is UiPath, robotic process automation, or RPA, been called the gateway drug to AI, really phenomenal. I've got some background in operations, and one of the users on the program was talking about how you could get that process to somewhere around 97 to 98% compliance, and standardize, but when they put in RPA, they get it to a full six sigma, which is like 99.999%, and usually, that's something that just humans can't do. They can't just take the variation out of a process, with people involved. And, this has been the promise of automation, and it's a theme. One of my favorite questions, this year, has been, we've been talking about things like automation, and intelligence in systems, for decades, but, now, with the advent of AI machine learning, we can argue whether these things are actually artificial intelligence, in what they are learning, but the programming and learning models, that can be set up and trained, and what they can do on their own, are super-impressive, and really poised to take the industry to the next level. >> So, I wanna fast forward to 2019, but before we do so, anything else that people need to know about 2018? >> 2018, Sam, it's this hybrid multi-cloud world. The relationship that I think we spend the most time talking about, is we talked a lot about Amazon, but, VMware. VMware now has over 600,000 customers, and that partnership with VMware is really interesting. The warning, of course, is that Amazon is learning a lot from Vmware, When we joke with my friends, we say, "Okay, you've learned a lot from them means that "maybe I don't need them in the long term." But in the short term, great move for VMware, where they've solidified their position with customers. Customers feel happy as to where they live, in that multi-cloud environment, and I guess we throw out these terms like hybrid, and multi, and things like that, but when I talk to users, they're just figuring out their digital transformation. They're worried about their business. Yes, they're doing cloud, so sassify what you can, put in the public cloud what makes sense, and modernize. Beware of lift and shift, it's really not the answer. It could be a piece of the overall puzzle, to be able to modernize and pull things apart. An area, I always try to keep ahead of what the next bleeding-edge thing is, Sam. A thing I've been looking at, deeply, the last two years, has been serverless. Serverless is phenomenal. It could just disrupt everything we're talking about, and, Amazon, of course, has the lead there. So, it was kind of an undercurrent discussion at the KubeCon Show, that we were just at. Final thing, things are changing all the time, Sam, and it is impossible for anybody to keep up on all of it. I get the chance to talk to some of the most brilliant people, at some of the most amazing companies, and even those, you know, the PhD's, the people inventing stuff, they're like, "I can't keep up with what's going on at my company, "let alone what's going on in the industry." So, that's the wrong thing. Of course, one of the things we helped to do, is to extract the signal from the noise, help people distill that. We put it into video, we put it into articles, we put it into podcasts, to help you understand some of the basics, and where you might wanna go to learn more. So, we're all swimming in this. You know, the only constant, Sam, in the industry is change. >> Absolutely. (laughing in unison) >> So, things are changing. The whole landscape, as you said, is changing. Going into 2019, what should people expect? Any predictions from you? Any big mergers and acquisitions you might see? >> It's amazing, Sam. The analogy I always use is, when you have the hundred year flood, you always say, "Oh gosh, we got through it, "and we should be okay." No, no, no, the concern is, if you have the hundred year flood, or the big earthquake, the chances are that you're going to have maybe something of the same magnitude, might even be more or less, but rather soon. A couple of years ago, Dell bought EMC, largest acquisition in tech history. We spent a lot of time analyzing it. By the way, Dell's gonna go public, December 28. Interesting move, billions of dollars. As Larry Ellison said, "Michael Dell, "he's no dummy when it comes to money.' He is going to make, personally, billions of dollars off of this transaction, and, overall, looks good for the Dell technologies family, as they're doing. So, that acquisition, the Red Hat acquisition, yeah, we're probably gonna see a 10-to-20 billion dollar acquisition this year. I'm not sure who it is. There's a lot of tech IPOs on the horizon. The data protection space is one that we've kept a close eye on. From what I hear, Zeam, who does over a billion dollars a year, not looking to go public. Rubrik, on the other hand, somewhere in the north of 200 million dollars worth of revenue, I kind of remember 200, 250 in run rate, right now, likely going to go public in 2019. Could somebody sweep in, and buy them before they go public? Absolutely. Now, I don't think Rubrik's looking to be acquired. In that space, you've got Rubrik, you've got Cohesity, you've got a whole lot of players, that it has been a little bit frothy, I guess you'd say. But, customers are looking for a change in how they're doing things, because their environments are changing. They've got lots of stuff in sass, gotta protect that data. They've got things all over the cloud, and that data issue is core. When we actually did our predictions for 2018, data was at the center of everything, when I talked about Wikibon. It was just talking to Peter Burris and David Floyer, and they said there is some hesitancy in the enterprise, like, I'm using Salesforce, I'm using Workday I'm using ServiceNow. We hear all the things about Facebook giving my data away, Google, maybe the wrong people own data, there's that concern I want to pull things back. I always bristle a little bit, when you talk about things like repatriation, and "I'm not gonna trust the cloud." Look, the public clouds are more secure, than my data centers are in general, and they're changing and updating much faster. One of the biggest things we have, in IT, is that I put something in, and making changes is tough. Change, as we said, is the only thing constant. It was something I wrote about. Red Hat, actually, is a company that has dealt with a lot of change. Anybody that sells anything with Linux, or Kubernetes, there are so many changes happening, on not only weekly, but a daily basis, that they help bring a little bit of order, and adult supervision, to what most people would say is chaos out there. That's the kind of thing we need more in the industry, is I need to be able to manage that change. A line I've used many times is, you don't go into a company and say, "Hey, what version of Azure are you running?" You're running whatever Microsoft says is the latest and greatest. You don't have to worry about Patch Tuesday, or 08. I've got that things that's gonna slow down my system for awhile. Microsoft needs to make that invisible to me. They do make that thing invisible to me. So does Amazon, so does Google. >> What's your number one company to watch, this upcoming year. Is it Amazon, Sam? Look, Amazon is the company at the center of it all. Their ecosystem is amazing. While Amazon adds more in revenue, than the number two infrastructure player does in revenue. So, look, in the cloud space, it is not only Amazon's world. There definitely is a multi-cloud world. I went to the Microsoft show for the first time, this year, and Microsoft's super-impressive. They focus on your business applications, and their customers love it. Office 365 really helped move everybody towards sass, in a big way, and it's a big service industry. Microsoft's been a phenomenal turnaround story, the last couple of years. Definitely want to dig in more with that ecosystem, in 2019 and beyond. But, Amazon, you know, we could do more shows of the CUBE, in 2019, than we did our first couple of years. They have, of course, Amazon re:Invent, our biggest show of the year, but their second year, it's about 20 shows, that they do, and we're increasing those. I've been to the New York City Summit, and the San Francisco Summit. I've already mentioned their Public Sector Summit. Really, really, really good ecosystems, phenomenal users, and I already told you how I feel about talking to users. It's great to hear what they're doing, and those customers are moving things around. Google, love doing the Google show. We'll be back there in April. Diane Greene is one of the big guests of the year, for us this year. I was sorry to miss it in person, 'cause I actually have some background. I worked with Diane. Back before EMC bought VMware. I had the pleasure of working with Vmware, when they were, like, a hundred person company. Sam, one of the things, I look back at my career, and I'm still a little bit agog. I mean, I was in my mid-20s, working in this little company, of about 100 people, signed an NDA, started working with them, and that's VMware, with 600,000 customers. I've watched their ascendancy. It's been one of the pleasures of my career. There's small ones, heck. Nutanix I've mentioned a couple of times. I started working them when they were real small. They have over a billion in revenue. New Cure, since the early days. Some companies have done really well. The cloud is really the center of gravity of what I watch. Edge computing we got into a bit. I'm surprised we got almost 20 minutes into this conversation, without mentioning it. That, the whole IOT space, and edge computing, really interesting. We did a fun show with PTC, here in Boston. Got to talk to the father of AI, the father of virtual reality. It's like all these technologies, many of which have been bouncing around for a couple of decades. How are they gonna become real? We've got a fun virtual reality place right next door. The guy running the cameras for us is a huge VR enthusiast. How much will those take the next step? And, how much are things stalling out? I worry, was having conversations. Autonomous vehicles, we're even looking at the space. Been talking about it. Will it really start to accelerate? Or have we hit road blocks, and it's gonna get delayed. Some of these are technologies, some of these are policies in place, in governments and the like, and that's still one of the things that slows down crowded options. You know, GDPR was the big discussion, leading into the beginning of 2018. Now, we barely talk about it. There's more regulations coming, in California and the like, but we do need to worry about some of those macro-economical and political things that sometimes get in the way, of some of the technology pieces. >> I'd love to put something out into the universe, here. If you could interview anyone in the world, who would it be? Let's see if we can make it happen. It's amazing to me, Sam, some of the interviews we've done. I got a one-on-one with Michael Dell this year. It was phenomenal, Michael was one. It took us about three or four years before we got Michael on the program, the first time. Now, we have him two or three times a year. Really, to get to talk to him. There is the founder culture John Furrier always talks about. Some of these founders are very different. Michael, amazing, got to speak to him a couple of times. There's something that makes him special, and there's a reason why he's a billionaire, and he's done very well for himself. So, that was one. Furrier also interviewed John Chambers, who is one of the big gets I was looking at. I was jealous that I wasn't able to get there. I got to interview one of my favorite authors this year, Walter Isaacson, at the shows. When I look at, Elon Musk, of course, as a technologist, is, I'm amazed. I read his bio, I've heard some phenomenal interviews with him. Kara Swisher did a phenomenal sit-down on her podcast with him. Even the 60 Minutes interview was decent this year. >> The Joe Rogan one was great >> Yeah, so, you'd want to be able to sit down. I wouldn't expect Elon to be a 15-minute, rapid-fire conversation, like we usually have. But, we do some longer forms, sit down. So he would be one. Andrew Jassy, we've interviewed a number of times now. Phenomenal. We've got to get Bezos on the program. Some of the big tech players out there. Look, Larry Ellison's another one that we haven't had on the program. We've had Mark Hurd on the program, We've had lots of the Oracle executives. Oracle's one that you don't count out. They still have so many customers, and have strong power in new issues, So there are some big names. I do love some of the authors, that we've had on the program, some thought leaders in the space. Every time we go to a show, it's like, I was a little disappointed I didn't get to interview Jane Goodall, when she was at a show. Things like that. So, we ask, and never know when you can get 'em. A lot of times, it's individual stories of the users, which are phenomenal, and there's just thousands of good stories. That's why we go to some small shows, and make sure we always have some editorial coverage. So that, if their customers are comfortable sharing their story, that's the foundation our research was founded on. Peers sharing with their peers. Some of the most powerful stories of change, and taking advantage of new technologies, and really transforming, not just business, but health care and finance, and government. There's so much opportunity for innovation, and drivers in the marketplace today. >> Stu, I love it. Thanks for wrapping up 2018 for us, and giving us the predictions. CUBE nation, you heard it here. We gotta get Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, and Larry Ellison on the CUBE this year. We could use your help. Stu, thank you, and CUBE nation, thank you for watching. (electronic techno music)

>> Live from Seattle, Washington, it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon, North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the cloud native computing foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Hello and welcome back to theCUBE's live coverage day three here, theCUBE covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2018 in Seattle. I'm John Furrier, with Stu Miniman, and Justin Warren here to break down the action. Justin Warren, as you know, is Guest Analyst for us at many events, Chief Analyst at PivotNine, coming all back over here again, to break it down. So we're going to dissect what's going on here at KubeCon, CloudNativeCon. This is, some say, me, the last stand to stop Amazon. Justin, good to see you. >> Good to see you as well, man. Stu, my first question is, as the show winds down, day three, a lot of people have left, all the big execs are gone, it's kind of last day, people coming together, party was last night, so we kind of see all the action, we kind of fished this pond dry, in theCUBE here, the last couple of days. The themes are starting to emerge. What are you seeing, what's your thoughts? >> Yeah, I mean, first of all, John, 8,000 people, this is, you know, geeks that are really excited, and I mean that in the best of ways, of course. There's actually, there were people here before the show started, doing lightning talks and full day sessions. Tomorrow, there's an operative session that another 250 or 300 people will be doing Friday, so, you know, and people want to just suck the marrow out of the bone that is everything going on here, just get every ounce of knowledge here, and they are deep into this session, so, this is a great community. The question I want to ask you guys is you were at Amazon re:Invent two weeks ago. We've watched that show. I want the compare and contrast of this ecosystem and show, not just compare it to like, say, open stack, which we've been teasing apart all week, and I think there are some things we need to worry about, but a lot of good differences. But compare against the big one in the room, which is Amazon, and a big difference is Amazon is here, and they have a seat at the table, because they have to, and customers will force them there, but you know, should this worry Amazon, and how does this ecosystem compare with the Amazon ecosystem. The big thing for me is, I understand how people make money in the ecosystem of Amazon. I'm still trying to figure that out here. >> Yeah, eh, it is a different ecosystem. It does have a bit of a vibe of it could be the new re:Invent. We've had conversations over the last couple of days about-- >> Or is this the independent cloud, >> Exactly. >> You know, open ecosystem. >> It is the independent show that we've been waiting for, that we've wanted since COMDEX and Interop kind of went away, and it's all been vendor shows, and now we have an independent show where all the vendors can come and have kind of a neutral meeting place, and we can all gather together and have some common ground, which is like, that's what Kubernetes is. I've been saying over the last couple of days, Kubernetes is like the ethernet of cloud, so it's something which is an agreed standard and we can all collaborate on, and then, you never bet against ethernet. So know you can build all these other things on top of that platform, yeah. >> Just a quick note on that, right, that's Interop, and networking was at the core of that. It was basically everybody, oh, it's the chance of if we give true interoperability, maybe we can do multi-vendor and it won't all be Cisco, who dominated that market. Amazon's the same. >> Stu, this is to me, ethernet's a great example. I say TCPIP as well. Both are enabling technologies that are standardized, or actually started as de facto standards. They weren't necessarily bona fide standards. They emerged when people rallied around them. Those de facto standards, emerge and become a catalyst point for people to build on top of and around. Remember, there's still a lower level below the stack on ethernet. So you had, you know, physical data link layer in the OSI model, the grandfather of all stacks. That really changed, I think, 20 years of growth and innovation. I think Kubernetes is, exactly right, Justin, it's exactly your point. I see that as well, that it's not so much Kubernetes is going to be the be all end all. It's what it enables, and I think the innovations on top of Kubernetes, and underneath Kubernetes, take the holy trinity, I've been saying this on theCUBE now for the past year, the holy trinity of infrastructure and IT is storage compute networking, and those things are now being repurposed in a way that is highly scalable, dynamic, and resourceful for a lot of things. AI is a great example, everyone talks about AI, but storage policy, the knobs in Kubernetes can manage, and Google saying the guys of Kubernetes. That's one of the most underutilized aspects of Kubernetes, is the networking guys managing the knobs from below, and then app guys with servers messing maybe on the top. This is just an absolute growth engine, and the comparison to Amazon is similar, because Andy Jassy talks about builders, the right tool for the job. This is essentially the same mantra. I mean, this is tools, platforms. >> It's very similar, but with one very important difference, and around the money side of things. You don't have this massive behemoth which is going to come in, and one year you're on the keynote, and the next year we just announced a product, which completely killed your business. It's open source. That's not really going to happen. So you've got that common core of things, where there's no real competitive advantage on this stuff. So that's, you know, Linux, where's the competitive advantage on a kernel? There isn't one. So open source makes great sense for that kind of core of things that you then build upon, and then all the money is in all the innovation, all the value add that goes on top of that, and that makes a huge amount of sense to have an open source show for that. >> And I think, Stu, one of the things that we always talk about, networking in cloud, I think the concept of cloud is going to be old hat. You heard it here first on theCUBE. Because cloud is Amazon, cloud is a set of resources. When we start thinking about IoT at the edge, when you talk about moving compute to the edge, you're going to start to see mesh networks, peer to peer, and add a new kind of platform configurations that isn't necessarily cloud. It's a new thing. It's a platform, open platform, and there's going to be some incentives that are going to be designed for startups, that's economically beneficial to the new kinds of things, versus the economic incentives that Amazon might not have, to do things. So I think we're going to see emergence of new stuff. I would still say that cloud is a state of mind, it's not a location. And we here, it's CloudNativeCon. It's not just KubeCon. It's about doing things in a cloud native way, and that, like you say, it doesn't matter where it is or how it communicates together, but it's the way you operate it, it's the way it actually works in practice. It's not so much of, oh, we're going to build it here and we're going to put it in that cloud, or that cloud, or that cloud. >> And I think we've had some real clarity as to what that future of multi cloud looks like, 'cause it's not one massive cloud everywhere, it's not, oh, my applications spanning all over the place. It's we're working to solve that really tough problem of distributed architectures, and giving us ways that I shouldn't have to think about where I am spinning that up, or if I need to change vendor, not necessarily portability, you still do have some lock in, because Kubernetes is not the full stack, it's a piece of the overall platform, and while there's 75 different versions here that are all compliant, I should be able to move between them, but the devil's in the details, and there's lots of stuff that goes on top. >> Let's talk about multi cloud for a second. 'Cause you mentioned COMDEX, you talked about ethernet. At that time, during those big revolutions, the word multi-vendor was a big buzz word. Multi-vendor was like the basis of COMDEX. We all got to play together. Multi-vendor meant choice. Today, multi cloud is just a modern version of multi-vendor. >> Exactly, it's multi-vendor, and that's what enterprises want. Enterprises are a bit wary now. We hear lots of conversation about lock in, and that comes up a lot, and it's a real thing. Enterprises are concerned, they don't want to bet on one company, and then find out that actually, it's technology, it changes, things need to be moved around. We don't want to wake up in five, six years, and then suddenly find, oh my god, I can't change anything because I'm locked into this one vendor. >> So, Justin, they say they want multi-vendor. When it came to networking, I spent years working on interoperability, and plug tests, and all these things, and at the end of the day, it was way better to get my standards plus with a single vendor than it was to try to loop them together, and then, oh, when I changed something, so hopefully the difference here is actually, we have loosely coupled services, we have APIs, so can we actually do multi-vendor, multi-cloud that doesn't stress out my team, and have, every time I want to make a change, or they make a change, it moves. The new cloud world should be, things change, you know, it changes upstream, and downstream, I get to use them. So, once again, we talk about the shiny nirvana of, oh, you know, it's serverless, and the old trinity of computer storage. I don't even need to worry about that, 'cause it'll just work, but wait, if something goes wrong, I've been talking to a bunch of vendors here, that actually, how do I get observability, and manageability, to be able to drill down, because things could still go wrong. >> Well, you heard Bloomberg, we had an end user come on, it's a very interesting point, and Dan Khan, from the executive director, well, Bloomberg's kind of a different case, but look at what Bloomberg does. The guy said to us, "I actually don't want to buy "these products and services. "I just want to pay them money "to be available to support me "when I need support." 'Cause Bloomberg has fully integrated all their support internally. I think that's a trend that we're going to see in the enterprise, where CIOs start building teams, real software chops. It might not be as big as Bloomberg, but the notion of, we're going to run our own stuff. We'll use management services where appropriate, but we're going to have a core software build strategy, and I can't wait. An SLA of four hour response time. I need like, minutes. >> And that's how, I think, where we don't have the answers yet. There are still a lot of questions that enterprises are trying to work out about how do I actually do that. So you mentioned Bloomberg, and I interviewed them a few months ago, wrote something in Forbes about them. They are a special case in that they have chosen that we're going to invest in this technology so that we have people on staff, in our company, who understand Kubernetes. Now, that's not a choice that every enterprise is going to make, but they decided that actually, this technology, this software is so important to our business, to where we get all the value for our business that we need to invest in that technology. And I think a lot of enterprises are realizing that, actually, outsourcing everything to one vendor, and then giving all of your innovation engine to someone else, and they're realizing that was a mistake. Now, they're trying to figure out, okay, what do we bring in house, what do we do ourselves, what do we get vendors to do, which technologies do we use for what particular value creation, and that complexity, that decision making process, that's what we haven't quite worked out yet, and that's where I think there's a lot of value in the ecosystem, with service providers who can provide advice on here is how you should do it, based on what you need to do. >> That's a great point. Stu, I want you to comment on that. Let's refine this for a second, 'cause the people who actually spend the money, or the people re-imagining IT infrastructure, IT applications. The CIO, I've interviewed the VP of Advanced Technology at Proctor and Gamble, and he told me, when he came in, he came from Coca Cola, he's been an old IT guy, he says, look, we outsourced everything to the point where we're anemic. We got a couple of storage guys, they're pushing buttons, they're jumping on, calling the vendors, they outsource everything. He says they had no ability to create a competitive advantage for the business, and what they moved quickly to was to bring talent in to be builders, to be in house. So now you have that trend happening in the modern CIO, CXO kind of roles. Now you have to say, okay, I got teams here. How do I get the investments deployed, how do I go to this ecosystem here with all these tools, all these capabilities, how do I invest, how do I build out. >> Look, I think Kelsey Hightower had a great point when we interviewed him this week. It is a huge opportunity for managed services, because like we talked about, the Amazon, or even the ecosystem, how do I keep up with all of this, and the answer is, you don't. You need to be able to have people, whether it's system integrators, or partners that are going to help that. You know, look, Amazon gets criticized for not being deeper in open source. Well, they use a lot of open source and they deliver those services, and they make it easy. Frictionless is something we talked about for many years as being the thing. The enterprise wants to be able to spend money and just go do it, because they don't have a team to pitch these. Even somebody like Bloomberg, or some of these really big companies I love, talking, you've got Apple, and Nordstrom, and some really interesting, oh, by the way, and they're all hiring. Whether or not they're actually using Kubernetes, they cannot confirm or deny, but you know, we know how that goes. >> Hold on, first, let's unpack the end user piece here, okay? Amazon is pushing 5,000 reference-able customers. Okay, it's not about the Amazon question. End users here, how many reference-able customers are here? What are they actually, Uber's here, they're hiring. They might have some Kubernetes stuff in the background. Sure, they probably do. But actually, what does the end user adoption really look like? I mean... >> It's still early, but again, a difference between this show and Amazon re:Invent. How many end customers have a booth at re:Invent? Compared to here, where we have people, end customers who are here mostly to try to hire talent. They have booths. >> Kudos to the CNCF. They've got 80 end users participating. There are a lot of users here. This is not the vendor fest that we see at some shows when they get big. I hear they're not seeking the vendors. The vendors that I talked to were happy because they are the users here, and they're excited. Before we go, John, there's a couple kinks in the armors and things we need to worry about. The two, if I look at service meshes, and I look at serverless as a huge threat. One of the things I wanted to look at coming in was I'd heard a lot of talk about Knative, and I think Knative is great, but it is not, you know, Lambda is the defacto standard, just like S3 was before. Lambda is this, and Knative has absolutely nothing to do with Lambda and does not connect with it. It is the difference between serverless and functions, and so, all the AWS functions and all the Azure functions have nothing to do with Knative. For the people that looked at OpenWhisk and all these other options, Knative seems a good way to pull, they've done a re-spin of what's happening there, and it's moving things down the line. Once again, as Kelsey said, if we look at serverless as a spectrum, which many of the hardcore serverless people will debate and argue, and be like, that's not real, serverless, well, just like we said, there is only one real cloud, and it was Amazon. We know that's not the case. It will be a spectrum, we want to meet customers where they are. So, Knative, good news, but the elephant in the room is that AWS and Azure are where all of the serverless really happens, and therefore, there is a big air gap between them. Justin, service mesh is something I know you've been looking at. Give it to us the good, bad, and the ugly. >> Service mesh is really, really early. So, we're at that part where there's a diversity of innovation going on. There's about 12, or at least 12 different companies here at the show, who are all doing something with service mesh. They're all trying to sell you a different solution. This is what happens with technology. A new technology gets created, and we have this flurry of all these startups, who are all trying different things. And this is the destructive force of capitalism. Not all of them are going to succeed, but we have to have them all out there in the market, because at the moment, it's too early to figure out, okay, well, it's definitely going to be that one. If we knew that one, then I'd be putting all of my money behind that one company today. >> Last year, Justin, all the talk was about SDO. I've heard a lot of talk about SDO, but it hasn't all been good. >> No, that's the thing. So we've had a year now, and last year was definitely, hey, SDO is like, the service mesh. Like, not so much. Envoy seems to be the common ground that people are actively using. That's what most people are building on top of. So it looks like Envoy's going to be that underlayer of everything else. But in terms of how you actually use service mesh, it's still very early, and people are trying to figure out how to do I use this quite complex technology in practice? And as people use it more, as we get more adoption, then we'll start to see that one or two of the methods and the approaches will win out over all of the others, and that's where we can expect to see, well, I have an anointed winner. That will then win out, because it's useful, because it's functional, because end users want to do it that way. >> And Envoy, by the way, had traction. They had a sold out EnvoyCon. On the first day, 350 people, Lyft is driving that, and they're just heads down, solving problems. I think that seems to be the formula for some of the successful products, where you take away all the window dressing and the hype. It comes down to who's solving what problems. >> And that's the thing with open source. You can't just throw a whole bunch of marketing dollars at it to make it succeed. If end users don't like the code, and they don't use it, then it won't work. >> John, I want you to give us the word on the open source business model. We watched in the last year, Red Hat bought CoreOS for 250 million, then they were acquired by IBM for 34 billion, pending final, and all that stuff and everything, and then, reading through the VMware, SCC filing $550 million for Heptio. You know, big, big dollars, so, is open source just getting a lot of customers, and they get acquired by the big guys? What's the take? >> I think it's interesting. First of all, Red Hat might not like what I'm about to say, but I'll just say it. I think there was a steal with CoreOS. If you look at what Heptio got for valuation, CoreOS was an absolute steal. The team was phenomenal, they were doing some amazing work. At that time of the acquisition, the debate of how to make money dominated versus just getting behind the technology, and I think CoreOS was a fantastic team, and they had the right tracking. You can see what's happening now with now part of the Red Hat. So, Red Hat got a massive lift on that, so I think, kudos to Red Hat for taking that up the table at that time. Great acquisition, I think that helped them propel, and now show that to IBM that there's real value there. Now, I think open source as a business model is interesting because it's changing, right? You now have a new generation of builders and developers coming in. Open source has to evolve, and I think the CNCF I think is a cutting edge experiment or Petri dish of how to stay true to open source principles, and still nurture and enable a downstream impact for the commercialization. I think it's an opportunity, but it's also one of their biggest challenges, because if this is COMDEX, COMDEX is an open source. It's hawking wares, right? So it's a different business model. So, this is going to be a very interesting test in the industry to see how the current open source momentum, which is looking really strong right now, how that can interplay with commercialization, because certainly, the money's there, the value's there, and if we can get these value spots identified, the white spaces for startups, and let the big guys also play as well, it's going to be a very interesting landscape, it's certainly dynamic. I don't have the answers, but my gut's telling me that a whole new level of sets of services and platforms are going to be composed around these services, and I think it's all going to be driven by open source, that's clear. How it shapes out, valuations and the talent buys, the momentum, market buy, we'll be watching, I don't know. >> Yeah, it's exciting times. We're here at the beginnings of what I hope is going to be this massive new ecosystem, and we get to watch it grow, we get to watch it change. It's a great place to be. >> All I can say, Stu, is I wish I was 25 years old again, right now, because for young entrepreneurs, and young tech folks, this is probably one of the most exciting times, because you have real computer science, and dormant computer science, now re-energized with cloud computing scale. It's just like-- >> John, they don't appreciate what they had, you know. They don't know what it was like to have a computer that wasn't actually connected to things, let alone what we had. >> I used to build my own graphics libraries, I used to walk to school in bare feet in the snow. It's so hard. It's so easy now. >> Creating ones and zeroes-- >> Where's my token ring? >> Creating ones and zeroes by banging rocks together. >> It's so easy now. You guys got it made. You have no idea. Great stuff, Stu, this is great analysis, and I think, again, KubeCon is the beginning, with Cloud Native, this is just a small signal, I think. I think there's going to be a COMDEX moment soon, unless this thing just blows up, which I don't think is going to happen. >> I mean, look, last thing, John, I want to big thank to the Linux Foundation, CNCF, for working with us. We've been neighbors in the early days, great partnership, this community. They've got a great media section. All of friends over here, that are creating a lot of con, working really hard. The amount of work that goes through, and as we had the people from CNCF talking. They've got a core team, but it's people that volunteer, and we were a community too, and all our sponsors, John. >> Yeah, thanks to the community, and again, one more final point is that, this market, Justin, as you know, we all cover it, is in a learning mode. There's a lot of education oriented stuff that people are interested in. You've got Alex Williams over at New Stack, DevOps.com, TFiR over there, everyone's up in media out there. There is a thirst for content, there's a thirst for community learning. The sessions are packed. I mean, the hallways are interesting. You see people huddling, and I overhear the conversations. They're not talking about what party to go to, they're talking about how to implement a Kubernetes cluster, so this, really people working on and off the court here, so to speak. So, it's been great coverage. So, day three, breaking it down. I'm John Furrier, Justin Warren, Stu Miniman, back with more coverage, day three, after the short break. (techno music)

>> Live from Seattle, Washington it's the CUBE covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Hey, welcome back, everyone. We are here live with CUBE coverage at KubeCon, CloudNativeCon 2018 in Seattle. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman your hosts all week, three days of coverage. We're in day two. 8,000 attendees, up from 4,000, spanning to China, in Europe, everywhere, the CNCF is expanding. The Linux Foundation, and the ecosystems expanding, we're here with Dan Kohn who's the executive director of the CNCF. Dan, great to see you. I know you work hard. (laughs) I see you out in China. You've done the work. You guys and the team have taken this hockey stick as it's described on the Twittersphere, really up and to the right, you've doubled, it's almost like Moore's law for attendance. (laughs) Doubling every six months. It's really a testament of how it's structured, how you guys are managing it, the balances that you go through. So congratulations. >> So thank you very much, and I'm thrilled that you guys have been with us through that whole ride, that we met here in Seattle two years ago at the first KubeCon we ran with 1,000 attendees. And here we are eight times higher two years later. But I absolutely do need to say it is the community that's growing, and we try and organize them a little bit and harness some of that excitement and energy and then there is a ton of logistics and effort that it takes to go from 28 members to 349 and to put on an event like this, but we do have an amazing team at the Linux Foundation and this is absolutely an all hands on deck where the entire events team is out here and working really hard. >> You guys are smart, you know what you're doing, and you have the right tone and posture, but you set it up right, so it's end user driven, it's open-source community as the core of the event, and you're seeing end users that have contributed, they're now consuming, you have vendors coming in, but you set the nice playbook up, and the downstream benefits of that open-source core has impacted IT, developers, average developers, and this is the magic. And you guys don't take too many hard stands on things, you take a good enough stand on the enablement piece of it. This is a critical piece. Explain the rationale because I think this is a success formula. You don't go too far and say, here's the CNCF stack. >> Right. >> You pull back a little bit on that and let the ecosystem enable it. Talk about that rationale because I think this is an important point. >> Sure and I would say that one of the huge advantages that CNCF has had is that we came later after a lot of other projects. So our parent, the Linux Foundation, has been around for 15 years. We've been able to leverage all of their expertise. We've looked at some of the mistakes that OpenStack, and Apache, and IETF, and other giants who came before us did, and our aspiration has always been to make entirely new mistakes rather than to replicate the old ones. But as you mentioned end user is a key focus, so when you look at our community, how CNCF is set up, we have a governing board that's mainly vendors, it does have developer and other reps on it. We have our technical oversight committee of these nine experts, kind of like our supreme court, and then we have this end user community that is feeding requirements and feedback back to the other group. >> I want to ask you about the structure, and I think this is important because you guys have a great governance model, but you have this concept of graduation. You have Kubernetes, and it's really solid, people are very happy with it, and there's always debates in open-source as you know, but there's a concept of graduating. Anyone can have projects, and explain that dynamic. 'Cause that's, I've heard people say, oh that's part of the CNCF, and well it hasn't graduated, but it's a project. It's important as a laddering there, explain that concept. I think this is important for people to understand that you're open, but there's kind of a model of graduation. What does it mean? >> Sure and it, people have said, oh you mean they've graduated, so they've left now, right? Like the kids leaving the home. And it's definitely not that model. Kubernetes is still very much part of CNCF. We're happy to do it. But we think that one of CNCF's functions is as a signaling and a marketing to enterprise users. And we like the cliche of crossing the chasm where we talk about 2018 was really the year that Kubernetes crossed the chasm. Went from as early adopters who'd been using it for years and were thrilled with it but they actually jump over now to the early majority. I will say though that the late majority, the laggards, the skeptics, they're not using these technologies yet. We still have a ton of opportunity for years to come on that. So we say the graduated projects, which today is not just Kubernetes but also Prometheus and Envoy. Those are the ones that are suitable for really any enterprise company, and that they should feel confident these are very mature, serious technologies for companies of all size. The majority of our projects are incubating. Those are great projects, technically capable, companies should absolutely use them if the use case fits, but they're less mature. And then we have this other category of the Sandbox, 11 projects in there, and we say look, these are incredibly promising. If you are technical enough and you have the use cases, you absolutely should consider it, but they are less mature. And then our hope is to help the projects move along that graduation phase. >> And that's how companies start. Bloomberg's plan, I thinking jumping into Sandbox, they'll start getting some code in there that'll attract some people, they get their code, they don't have to come back after the fact and join in. So you have the Sandbox, you've got projects, you've got graduation, so. >> Now Bloomberg's a little bit unusual, and I like them as an example where they have, I don't know if they mentioned this, but almost a philosophy not to spend money on software. And of course that's great. All of our projects are free and open-source, and they're willing to spend money on people, and they hire a spectacular group of engineers, and then they support everything in-house. But in reality, the vast majority of end users are very happy to work with the vendor, including a lot of our members, and pay for some of that support. And so a Bloomberg can be a little bit more adventurous than many, I think. >> Dan, I wonder if you can provide a little bit of context. I hear some people look at really kind of the conformance and certification that the CNCF does. And I think in many ways learn from the mistakes of some of the things we've done in the past because they'll see there's so many companies, it's like, well there's too many distributions. Maybe you could help explain the difference between a distribution-- >> Sure. >> And what's supported and how that makes sense. >> And I think when you look back at, and we just had, CNCF just had our three-year birthday this week, we have a little birthday cake on Twitter and everything. But if you look at all the activities we've been involved in over those three years, KubeCon, CloudNativeCon, we have a service provider program, we've done a lot of marketing, helping projects, I think it's the certification and the software conformance is the single thing that we've had done that's had the biggest impact on the community. And the idea here is that we wanted a way for individual companies to be able to make changes to Kubernetes because they all want to, but to still have confidence that you could take the same workload and move it between the different public clouds, between the different enterprise distros or just vanilla Kubernetes that you download or different installers out there. And so the solution was an open-source software conformance project that anyone can download these tasks and run them, and then a process where people upload the test results and say, yes my implementation is still conformant. I've made these changes, but I haven't broken anything. And we really have some amazing cases of our members, some of our biggest members, who had turned off APIs, maybe in their public cloud for good reasons. They said, oh this doesn't apply or we don't, but that's exactly the kind of thing that can cause incompatibility. >> Yeah, I mean that's critically important, and the other thing that is, what I haven't heard, is there's so many projects here. And we go to the Amazon show and it's like, I'm overwhelmed and I don't know what to do, and I can't keep up with everything. I'm actually surprised I don't hear that here because there are pockets, and this is multiple communities, not like a single monolithic community, so you've got, you know Envoy has their own little separate show and Operators has a thing on Friday that they're doing, and there's the Helm community and sometimes I'm putting many of the pieces together, but oftentimes I'm taking just a couple of the pieces. How do you manage this loosely coupled, it's like distributed architecture. >> Loosely coupled is a key phrase. I think the big advantage we have is our anchor tenant of Kubernetes has its own gravitational field. And so from a compatibility standpoint, we have this, excuse me, certification program for Kubernetes and then all of the other projects essentially ensure they're orbiting around and they ensure that they're compatible with Kubernetes, that also ensures they're compatible with each other. Now it's definitely the case that our projects are used beyond just Kubernetes. We were thrilled with Amazon's announcement two weeks ago of commercial support for Envoy and talking about how one of the things they loved about Envoy is that is doesn't just work on Kubernetes, they can use it on their proprietary ECS platform on their regular EC2 environment as well. And that's true for almost all of our projects. Prometheus is used in Mesos, is used in Docker Swarm, is used in VMs, but I do think that having so much traction and momentum around Kubernetes just is a forcing function for the whole community to come together and stay compatible. >> Well you guys did a great job. That happened last year. It's really to me is an example of a historic moment in the computer industry because this is a modern version of enabling technology that's going to enable a lot of value creation, a lot of wealth creation, a lot of customer, and it's all in a new way, so I think you guys really cracked the code on that and continued success. You've obviously had China going gangbusters, you're expanding, China by the way is one of the largest areas we've reported on Siliconangle.com and the CUBE in the past. China has emerged as one of the largest contributors and consumers of open-source given the rise of all the action going on in China. >> And we've been thrilled to see that, and I mean there was just the example yesterday where etcd is now the newest project, the newest incubating project in CNCF, and the co-creator of that and really the lead maintainer for it left CoreOS when it was acquired by Red Hat and is now with Alibaba. And he's originally from China. He is helping Alibaba just who's a platinum member of CNCF, who's been offering a certified Kubernetes service, but they're now looking at how they can move much more of their internal workloads over to it. JD.com has 25,000 servers. That's the second biggest retailer in China. >> It's a constituent. >> I was there six times last year. >> I know you were. >> I ran into you once in a hotel lobby. (laughing) >> What are you doing in China? It's huge, we're here. This is a big dynamic. This is new. I mean this is a big force and function. >> And to have so much energy, and I do also want to really emphasize the two-way street, that it's not just Chinese companies adopting these technologies that started in the US. >> They're contributing. >> We were thrilled a month ago to have Harbor come in as an incubating project and that started in China and is now being used across the world. >> Dan, 2019, you've got three shows again, Barcelona, Shanghai, and San Diego. >> Exactly. >> Of course the numbers are going to be up and to the right, but what else should we be looking for? >> So I think the two, so definitely China, we're going to continue doing it there, we continue to be relations serverless, we're thrilled with the progress of our serverless working group. They have this new cloud event spec, we have all of the different major clouds participating in it. The third area that I think you're going to see us that is somewhat new is looking at telcos. And our vision is that you can take a lot, most networking code today is done in virtual machines called virtual network functions. We think those should evolve to become cloud native network functions. The same networking code running in containers on Kubernetes. And so this is actually going to be our first time with a booth at Mobile World Congress in Barcelona in February. And we're going to be talking about-- >> Makes a lot of sense. IOT, over the top, a lot of enablement there. Makes inefficiencies in that inefficient stacks. >> Yeah, and on the edge as well. >> Dan, thanks for coming out, I appreciate it. Again, you've done the work, hard work, and continue it, great success, congratulations. I know it's early days still but. >> I hope it is. At some date Kubernetes is going to plateau. But it really doesn't feel like it'll be 2019. >> Yeah, it definitely is not boring. (laughing) Even though we had much more, Dan. >> Dan Kohn, executive director of the CNCF. Here inside the CUBE, breaking it all down, again, another successful show. Just the growth, this is the tsunami, it's a rise of Kubernetes and the ecosystem around it, creating values, the CUBE coverage, live here in Seattle. I'll be back with more coverage after this short break. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman. Be right back. (upbeat music)

>> Live from Seattle, Washington, it's the Cube, covering KubeCon andCloudNativeCon North America 2018. Brought to you buy Red Hat, the CloudNative computing foundation and it's ecosystem partners. (background crowd chatter) >> Okay welcome back everyone, live here in Seattle forKubeCon and CloudNativeCon. This is the Cube's coverage, I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman. We've got two great guests, Chris Wright CTO of Red Hat, Scott Sneddon who's the senior director ofcloud at Juniper Networks, breaking down, windingdown day one of three days of coverage here. Rise of kubernetes, rise of cloudnatives, certainly impacting IT,open source communities, and developers. Guys, thanks for coming on the Cube. Appreciate it. It's good to see you. >> Yeah, good to see you. >> Welcome to the Cube. Okay, so, talk aboutthe relationship between Red Hat and Juniper. Why we're here, what are we talking about? >> Well, we're here to talkabout a combined solution. So, Red Hat's bringingkind of the software platform infrastructure piece and Juniper's bringinga networking component that ties it together.>> Yeah. >> So, we do have a fairly, well, in tech terms arelatively long history of working together. We've had a partnership for a little more than two years on sometelco Cloud initiatives around OpenStack, using the right OpenStackplatform with Contrail Juniper's contrail solutionas an SDN layer for these telco Cloud deployments. And have had a lot of successwith that partnership. A lot of large and smallto medium telco's around the world have deployed that. Earlier this year at theOpenStack summit in Vancouver, we announced an expandedpartnership to start to address some enterprise use cases. And, you know, naturallyopen shift is the lead technology that we wanted to tie in with around enterpriseadoption of cloud and some alternatives to someof the legacy platforms that are out there. >> And we were talkingearlier in the Cube here, we always get kind ofthe feel of the show, kubernetes maturing? But it kind of two worlds colliding and working together. A systems kind of view,almost like operating systems. The network systems, allkind of systems thinking. And then just apps. Okay, the old app thing. So these old legacy worldthat we all lived in kind of happening in really dynamic ways with the apps aren't thinkingabout what's below it. This is really kind of whereyou guys have a tailwind with Juniper.>> Yeah. Because you still gotto make things dynamic, you still got latency, onpremises not going away. You got IOT, so networkingplays a really big thing as software starts figuringthings out as kubernetes. Let's talk about that. Where is that value? How's it expanding? Cause clearly you stillneed to move packets from A to B.>> Yeah. Be more efficient with it. Apps going to have policy. >> The, well, I mean you've still got to, the network is always been the foundation of technology or at least for the last 20 plus years. And as cloud has been adopted, really we've seen network scale drive in different ways. The mega scalers thathave built infrastructure that we've been enabling for quite a while and have been working withthose customers as well. We've been developing a lot of simplified architecture just forthe physical plumbing to connect these things together. But what we've seen andis more and more important is, you know, it's all about the app, the app is the thing that'sgoing to consume these things. And the app developerdoesn't necessarily want to worry about IP addresses and port numbers and firewall rules and things like that, so how could we justmore simply extract that? And so, you know, we'vebeen developing automation and aimed at the networkfor quite a while, but I think more andmore it's becoming more important that theapplication can just consume that without having to directthe automation at the app. And so, you know, groupslike CloudNative foundation and a lot of the workwith kubernetes are on network policy, let's us use CloudNativeprivatives and then we can translate into the network primitives that we need to deploy to move packets, you know, IP addresses and subnets. >> And Chris, talk aboutthe multi cloud dynamic here because again, the dayof things are moving around the standardizationaround those core value propositions, youmentioned about networking and software networks, all kinds of software, you know, venations under the covers. I'm a customer, I havemultiple clouds now. This is going to be a core requirement. So you got to have a a clean integration between it. >> There's really two things. If you look at a modern application, you got your traditionalmonolithic application and as you tease itapart and into components and services, there's only one thingthat reconnects them and that's the network and so insuring that that's as easy to use as an applicationdevelopers focus is around the app and not aroundnetwork engineering is fundamental to a single cluster. And then if you have multiple clusters and you're trying to take advantage of different specialtiesin different clouds or geo replication or things like this that also require thenetwork to reconstitute those applications across thedifferent multiple clouds. If you expect your applicationengineers to become experts in networking, you're just sort ofsetting everybody up with misset expectations. >> It slows things down,requires all these other tasks you got to do. I mean it's like a rock fetch. You don't want to do it. Okay, stack a bunch of rocks, move them from there to there. I mean, this is whatthe holy grail of this infrastructure's code really is. >> Yeah.>> Yeah. I mean, that's the goal. >> Help connect the dots for us. When you look at multicloud networking obviously is a very critical component, what're your customers looking for? How does this solution goto market for your company? >> Absolute ease ofuse is top of the list. So, it can't be overly complicated. Because we're alreadybuilding complex systems, these are big distributive systems and you're adding multipleclusters and trying to connect them together. So ease of use is important. And then something that'sdynamic and reflects the current application requirements, I think is also really important. So that you don't over utilize resources in a cloud to maintainsort of a static connection that isn't actually needed at that moment. I'm sure you probably havea different perspective. >> Yeah, I mean, this isthe whole concept of SDN and network virtualization, a lot of the buzzwordsthat have been around for a few years now, is the ability to deliveron demand network services that are turned on whenthe application asks for it and are turned off when the application's done with it. We can create dynamic connectionsas applications scale. And then with a lot of thenewer things we've been doing around contrailand with Red Hat are the ability to extend thoseapplications environments with networking andsecurity into various cloud platforms. So, you know, if it's runningon top of an openstack environment or in a public cloud or, some other bare metal infrastructure, we're going to make surethat the network and security primitives are inplace when the application needs it and then get deepervisioned or pulled out when they go away. >> Being at a show like this, I don't think we need to talktoo much about open source, because that's reallycore and fundamental, but what we're doing here, but I guess, how doesthat play into customers? We've been watching the slow change in the networking world, you know, I'm a networking guy by background, used to measure changesin networks in decades and now it feels like we'removing a tiny bit faster, >> Little bit. >> What're we seeing is--? >> Well, I mean the historyof openness in networking was the ITF>> Standards. >> and IEEE and standards bodies, right? How do we interact? We're going to have ourlittle private playground and then we'll makesure to protocol layer, we can interact with each otherand we call that openness. But the new openness is open source and transparency into the platform and the ability tocontribute and participate. And so Juniper shifted a lot of our focus, I mean we still haveour own silicone and the operating system we built on our routers and switches, but we'vealso taken the contrail platform, open sourced it a few years ago, it's now called thetungsten fabric project under the Linux foundation. And we're activeparticipants in a community. And our customers really demand that. The telco's are drivingtowards an open source model, more and more enterpriseswant to be able to consume open source software with support, which is where we come in, but also be able to have an understanding of what's going on under the covers to participate if that's a possibility. But really drivinginteroperability through a different way then justa protocol interaction and a standards body. >> I can see how kubernetescan be a great fit for you guys at Juniper, clearly out of the boxyou have this kind of inter cloud, inter networking, paradigm that you're used to, right? How does the relationshipof Red Hat take it to the next level? What specifically areyou guys partnering on, where's that, what'sthat impact on customers? Can you just give a quick explanation, take a minute to explainthe Juniper Red Hat-- >> Well a lot of itcomes down to usability and ease of use, right? I mean what Red Hat's done with open shift is developed a platformleveraging kubernetes heavily, to make kubernetes easierto use with the great support model and a lot of tooling built on top of that to make thatmore easily deployable, more easily developersto develop on top of. What we're doing withcontrail is providing a supported version ofour open source project and then by tying thesethings together with some installation tools and packaging and most importantly a support model, that let's a customer have the proverbial single throat to choke. >> Have you ever hadcustomers that can run beautifully on your platform? >> Yeah yeah, and theinstallation process is seamless, it's a nob that installtime to consume contrail or some other networking stack and they can call Red Hat for support and they'll escalate toJuniper when appropriate and vice versa. And we've got all those things in place. >> I think one of the things that we have like shared vision on is, the ease of use andthen if you think about two separate systems with a plug in, there's going to be someintegration that needs to happen and we're lookingat how much automation can we do to keep thoseintegrations always functional so that ifwe need to do upgrades, we can do those together instead of abandoning one side or the other. And I think another areawhere we have shared vision is the multi cloud space where we really see the importance for our customer base toget applications deployed to the right locations. And that could be takingadvantage of different pricing structures in different clouds or it could be hardwarefeatures of functionality. Especially as we getinto edge computing and really creating a differentview of computing fabric, which isn't quite so, you know, client serveror cloud centralized, but much more distributed. >> I like how you said that Chris, earlier about how when you decomposethat monolithic app it connects with the network. That's also the other way around. Little pieces can cometogether and work with the network and then form in real time, whether it's an IOT datacoming into the data center, or pushing computdata to the edge, you got to have that network interaction. This is a real CloudNative evolution, this is the core. >> Yeah, and I think anotherpiece that we haven't touched on as much, Scott mentioned it, was the security component. >> Yeah, explain that. >> Again, with as youdecompose that application into components, you surface those components with APIs, those were internal APIswhen they're now exposed externally security really matters. And having simple policythat describes not just the connectivity topologybut who can speak to whom is pretty fundamentally important. So that you maintainsecurity posture and a risk profile that's acceptable. >> And then I think it'sreally important is, your traditionalenterprise starts to adopt these CloudNative models. You've got a securityteam there that might not necessarily be up to speed or on board. So you've got to havetooling and visualization and analytics to beable to present to them that policies are being enforced correctly and are compliant and all those things so. >> Yeah and they're tough customers too. They're not going to, they expectreally rock solid capability. >> They don't let youjust deploy a big flat network with no policy-- >> Hey what about the APIs? Service areas exposed in the IOT space. >> Yeah.>> Right. >> You got to nail it down. >> Yeah absolutely, sothat's a lot of what we're bringing to the table here, is a lot of Juniper'shistory around developing security products. >> Take a minute to explain,I want to give you some time to get a plug in for Juniper. I've been following youguys for a long time. Junos back on the old days, contrail. Juniper's has had a software, big time software view. >> Yeah. >> Explain the DNA of software at Juniper. >> You know the earlydays of Juniper were, we weren't the first networkvendor on the market. There was already somebodyon the market in the mid 90s that had a pretty solid stronghold on carrier and enterprise networking. We had to come in with a better model. Let's make the box easierto use and simpler. Let's make the interfacea little more structured and understandable. Let's make it programmable, right? I mean the first feature request for Junos was to have a CLI becausethe first interaction to it was just an API call. And that was out of the box from day one. We had to write a user interface to it just to fit in to theexisting network world in the mid 90s. And so we've alwaysbeen really proud of the Junos operating systemthat runs on our boxes. We've really been proudthat we've had this one Junos concept of a commonoperating system on every network device that we deliver. As we've started tovirtualize those network devices for NFE and things like that, it's again that same operatingsystem that we deliver. Contrail came to us through acquisition, so it's not Junos in and of itself, but still leveraging a lot of those same fundamentals around,model driven configuration management, understandableAPIs, and openness that we've always had. >> Cloud operating modelthat everyone's going to, the common operating modelfits in that unification vision that you guys have had. >> Yeah absolutely. >> And really early, by the way, was before SDN was SDN, I think that was SDN's kind of like-- >> I like to dry, I-- >> Should have called it SDN. >> Right, I described SDN as just a big distributed router andreally we've had big distributed routers for a long time. >> John, we are in Seattle, everything we're talkingabout in tech is hipster. >> Chris, great stuff. Great to have you on, Scott. Great smart commentary. CTO Red Hat, you guys are winning. Congratulations on the betsyou made at kubernetes early, >> Yeah. >> CoreOS great acquisition,great team there, and some news there aboutsome dealings out back into the C and CF, soI mean, you've got it-- >> A lot going on. >> A lot going on. And yeah, big news with that other things, I can't remember what it was, it was some big-->> Something in there. >> Something for a million dollars. >> Great news out there. Thanks for coming out, appreciate it. Good to see you.>> Good to see you. >> Alright, breakingdown day one coverage. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman. Day two starts tomorrow. Three days of wall towall coverage of KubeCon. And they're shutting down the hall. Be right back and see you tomorrow. Thanks for watching. (techy music)

>> Announcer: Live from Seattle Washington, it's the Cube covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon, North America, 2018. Brought to you by Redhat, the CloudNative Computing Foundation, and it's ecosystem's partners. (techno music) >> Okay welcome back everyone. We are live in Seattle for KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2018, Cube's live coverage three days. Day one of a full house event here, through 8,000 people, doubled from last year, I'm John Furrier for Stu Miniman. Our next two guests are from Red Hat. Great to have these guys as our guests, as also thank Red Hat for being great sponsors. Brian "Redbeard" Harrington, Cube Alumni Back Product Manager of Service Mesh at Red Hat, and William Oliveria, Product Manager Serverless at Red Hat, we'll hear a lot about that. You guys, first of all, thanks for coming on, and thanks to your company Red Hat, for being a great supporter of the Cube and the community, the contribution you guys have helped up make, we really appreciate that. Thank you. >> Absolutely delighted to be here. >> Happy to be here. >> John Furrier: Alright, so let's get into it. So service meshes are hot because now Kubernetes is kind of like, we're seeing that is totally stabilized, and now you start to see the engineering, and the value creation happening in layers. Shim layers they call here, I got state-full applications. So you're starting to see service meshes conceptually adopt. Give us a quick update on where that is, how real is it, what's the progress, and what's some of the state-of-the-art activities around it? >> [Brian "Redbeard" Harrington] Well the beautiful thing is, using a service mesh is not anything new at all. I mean, that was really built to top the Netflix OSS ideas. They've been around for seven, eight years now. It's really just kind of decomposing what were a bunch of individual libraries that you had to implement into more infrastructure services, so that you know that you just, regardless of the language, environment, etc., you've always got a certain base platform ready to go. >> John Furrier: Is Service Mesh going to be a standard thing? Is it going to be, service meshes of your flavor, is there going to be certain instances custom services? How do you see that coming out with CSDO, Knative? There's things evolving. >> [Brian "Redbeard" Harrington] Mmhm, yeah. >> What's the state there, is that going to be the new normal, or is it going to see settling? What's your view on that? >> [Brian "Redbeard" Harrington] I think to some extent, it depends on the scale that you're at. If you are at the scale of Yelp or Stripe, one of those, and using Envoy, you already have a good idea of what that mesh is going to look like, so you're building that control plain, in the way that you need it. Where Istio and Linker D and some of the other ones come in, is when you are a smaller scale and you need to figure out what you're control plane is going to look like, that's where it really shines, because it gives you something that you can just start using and has some training wheels on it to make sure that you've got a stable platform to use from day one. >> Stu Miniman: So one of the other news items today I wanted to get your opinion on is, EtsyD has been handed over to Linux Foundation and CNCF, so EtsyD came out of CoreOS of course, which was acquired by Red Hat. Give us a little bit of the update as to why that happened and why it's a good thing for the community. >> So I think for any stable platform, it's really been the theme of what I've been talking about, you've got to know that it's safe to use the software, that there's going to be a longer term vision, and a lot of community guidance around that, and that's why Red Hat made the contribution. When we were at CoreOS, we really wanted to, and it was something that was ultimately a goal, but it kind of became a little bit of a race condition. Do we go ahead and contribute it, and then hope that other folks will join us in building it? Just by open sourcing it, we saw some contributions from IBM around PowerPC architecture and Maso's, and other groups coming in, but putting it just full-bore in the CNCF really guarantees that there will be ongoing community collaboration. >> John Furrier: Just to give a shout out to you guys at CoreOS, you guys did an amazing job, and I think this is a benefit of the Red Hat relationship, because that's the start up dilemma you have, do we get it in there, how do we support it, how do we make it better, is it competitive, was our focus what we optimized it for? But now with the Red Hat piece you guys should lean back, and do the right thing and get it in there with the right resource push, is that kind of how it's evolving, because that seems like what's-- >> It absolutely is. This goes beyond just EtsyD. The really rad thing is that I think it's safe to say that there is no part of the CoreOS portfolio that really isn't getting open sourced. You can kind of read into that what you will but, it meant that there was no technology that was getting left behind, nad that our users who really felt passionately about pieces of software, again, we're going to be able to have that utility. >> Stu Miniman: I think it goes back, we've been at Red Hat summits for many years and Red Hat is a hundred percent open sourced, it must be, and even I go back to Polvey and yourself and Brandon, all of the tools at CoreOS were creating is, they were all going to be open sourced tools that you will be involved in. I guess William, a good point to bring you into the conversation, Serverless, and fully open source, if not been have you thought about it at least for the last couple of years so, before we get into the Knative, give us the Red Hat positioning, where does Serverless fit into the architecture? And then we'd love to tease out all of the Knative discussion. >> Absolutely. For us, Serverless then is a lot about the user experience, and how we can simplify how developers can leverage technology such as Itsiu and service meshes and everything around the developer experience on top of Kuberneties. Serverless can deliver that and a lot of what we believe is that, it should not be then tied too much to functions because we can do that for functions, but we can do that for any class of applications actually running on top of the platform, and that's a lot of why we believe that Knative is this powerful interesting project going on out there right now. We already have all these different players collaborating, which is fantastic for inter-oper ability, we make sure that we can leverage that implementation on different platforms, we can run that anywhere pretty much on top of Kuberneties, and that's a big goal, to make sure that you can plug all these different parts as part of a consistent user experience there. >> Stu Miniman: Okay so we had the cube at the Google event this summer when it was announced I was at Serverless conference this year and to be honest, a lot of people were kind of scratching their heads trying to understand. Okay, Serverless and Kuberneties are going together but I'm not sure I quite get it? Give us the update where are we, when does this get baked into platforms, what can I do today, where do I learn more? >> Today, what we are offering is the three big modules as part of Knative are built, events, and serving. So it's the basic capabilities for you to build a serverless platform that, can again, work on any kind of application, not only functions, and we are at that stage. The project is very new, we are still in 0.2 release, at this point, so there's a lot of missing parts around user experience and what-not, but we are getting there, and that's where most of the focus is going on right now. But with something like events, that's a perfect opportunity for example, to integrate with all the different services we have available, let's say on Service Catalog, or through the operator's framework, for example, to connect to the applications that you are building on top of Kuberneties. That was part of the things that was missing to connect the dots when your implementing those applications, how are you going to consume events, how are you going to consume services, how those applications are going to scale? That's a lot of what we're addressing with Knative right now. >> What's the big walk away around the current event here at KubeCon? We hear maturity, great, check. A lot of people are fine in their swim lanes or whatever, their value layer, check. Clear a lot more gaps things white space start to appear, when that visibility lifts. What do you guys see the opportunities for the community, and you guys, certainly one of the big players, Red Hat, leading the way, as this ecosystem is, I mean companies I've never heard of, coming out of the woodwork. This is vibrant! There are opportunities for people to kind of, play in these white spaces. Do you guys have any thoughts on where you could give guidance to where people could jump in and create value? >> Well, there's two areas that are really fascinating to me. One is the fact that now that Kuberneties has gotten to the level of boarding infrastructure, it means that there are a lot more companies that are really comfortable saying, "we're building a top that, we don't care about what the compute layer is, because we just know". So you see a lot of organizations that are coming in, because they want to collaborate with other organizations, and see how they're using it to cross pollinate and get new ideas. That's why you've got full retail companies like Nordstrom here, that are the local band in town, and they're happy to come and show off, and you've also got a lot of, to the second piece of that, emerging companies that are finding areas, white space that we didn't consider as the incumbance in the space, and they're providing direct value. I think that as we have seen a lot more acquisitions coming through the space, there is going to be a lot of opportunity for the organization that has that five, ten, fifty million dollar idea to come in, build it quickly, know that it works on top of Kuberneties, and then be able to port it to Enterprise software that runs on a local cluster or across clouds. >> John Furrier: So new business model innovations are coming out of it as well., hence opportunities. It's okay to have a fifty million dollar business. >> Yes. >> Not bad, and could be acquired as well, some other value there. Okay, Microservice is hard to manage. Guys, talk about this dynamic. This is one of the things you guys really work hard to address, I know. We hear a lot about it. Porting to Microservice, "Hey, I'm in Enterprise! We should move from our Red Hat Linux implementation, to full cloud, and then it's going to go all the way to Microservices." Well, what the hell is Microservices? So again, this is kind of like, well I'm not saying that they're thinking that way, but this is not that easy. How do you guys make it easier? What are some of the speed bumps that customers hit? And what are the things to overcome those? What's your view on that? >> [William Oliveria] I'll talk about, first of all, how Knative is contributing to that. Again, the whole thing that we're talking about, not being tied to functions is because again, I want to leverage the serverless capabilities available in the platform for Microservices as well. And whenever you're talking about monitoring, tracing, observe-abilities, Istio comes into play, and solved that problem and connect all those different Microservices in a very nice way. With Knative, things we can improve on the user experience, so you can do that in a very easy way, when you are coming from this brown field applications when you are migrating to the cloud, when you are trying to port those applications, it's a big learning curve. You got to learn about all these different technologies. So if you can improve that user experience, so you can do what you do best, which is focus on your code, and then we can take care of a lot the complexities of building and wiring together all these different parts on the platform. We'll do that. And that's a lot of what we are doing with serverless. >> That's where the manage piece comes in, right? >> [William Oliveria] Right. >> And then the monitoring, that part of it to? >> Yeaa, well to build on top of that, there is the organizations that want to still design things the way that they've been doing it. And we've had a big focus with a project called Red Hat OpenShift Application Runtimes, or RHOAR, which it goes more in the direction of the past concept, which is a big difference between OpenShift and TechTonic, for example, and through that, a lot of the RHOAR bundles for Python and Java and Node.js kind of integrate in the concepts of distributed tracing and permethius monitoring and things like that, to make sure that you focus, again, to William's point, on building the thing that brings yuour business value and standing on the shoulders of software at the infrastructure level. >> That's great stuff and it's a lot more work to do. >> Yeah, just the last thing, I know Red Hat's been working on trying to, I don't know if you call it "templatize", but how do I make it easier for people to, I'm trying to remember the name of the term for it. >> Yeah, so it's the OpenShift Application Runtime. Having what used to be the gear in the old OpenShift realm. Which is just here is a great template, a package to start from, so that you can go in and implement the things that you care about, and really step then into, the "Okay, we know that the code's going to work okay, because we built that, we know the application platform is going to be predictable, we know that we have all of these additional hooks to manage it." So hopefully, it lowers the bar, to make it trivial to get started. >> That's awesome. Well, Redbeard and William, thanks for coming on the Cube, really appreciate it. Just quick plug, what's up next for you guys? What's on the horizon? What itch are you scratching these days? What's getting you motivated? >> The big things that's exciting for me is the fourth coming release of OpenShift 4.0, which gives me the room to shine on the GA release of all the service mesh stuff. And then, kind of in parallel, just a lot of the vector packet processing, FITO, high scale networking stuff just sends a tingle up my spine. I love keeping an eye on that >> For me we just announced a review of Knative and OpenShift as an add-on. You can just install and run that when you're on OpenShift, and like what Redbeard said, I'm looking forward for 4.0 as well, to make sure that I could plug that user experience on top of 4.0 and we are already doing a lot for the ops side, and I'd like to do that also now for our developers as well. >> Well when you're ready, we'll pop a digital cork on Twitter, let us know, we'll certainly cover it. Thanks for coming out, appreciate the insight. >> We'll bring you the insights and all the data here at KubeCon CloudNative. Of course we're the Cube, don't be confused with KubeCon, on one of our conferences coming. But only kidding, we're not going to have that. Thanks for watching day one, live coverage. Stay with us for more coverage after this short break. (techno music)