The Cube presents UI Path Forward five. Brought to you by UI Path. >>Hi, everybody went back live at the Venetian, formerly the Sands Convention Center. Dave Ante with David Nicholson. UI. Paths forward five. This is the fourth forward conference that the Cube has done. So we've seen the ascendancy of UI path, the growth customers. UiPath is one of the first companies to actually come back Post Covid. Last year, 2021 at the Bellagio. They took a chance and it actually worked out great at a couple thousand people there. Lots of customers. We're here with Lauren Joyce, who's the global automation lead at Whirlpool. She's joined by Regener Facade rp, who is the global automation lead at Accenture. Good to see you again. Lauren. Welcome to the Cube first timer. Very much, >>Yes, thank >>You. So you're relatively new to automation, but you, as we were talking, you're a process with talk about the center of excellence that you're building out. What's the importance of that to Whirlpool? >>Absolutely. So we are first looking at automation from our finance organization and they were coming to us with, Hey, here are 12 things we wanna automate. And really what we are finding is that not all of these things were suitable for automation. So we've started on the COE journey of, well, how do we make sure that we're getting the most ROI for our business? Starting with discovery, making sure that what we're automating it makes sense, it's the right process versus just an upgrade or, or retooling set. So for us, especially being a global company, making sure that we had that governance in place, that mindset and what should be automated and when really made sense and helped us on our journey pursuing. >>And, and, and I presume that's where Accenture comes in. I mean, rp, you got deep industry expertise, you've got automation expertise. What role do you play in that prioritization exercise? >>So the, the way we approach any automation implementation is similar to what we did here in our pool. First step is, you know, I call it as knowing where you are in the automation journey. Like what always is, if you don't know where you are on a map, a map won't help you. So baselining the current automation maturity and the current journey where they are. And once you do that, you identify you are not star and prioritization and the goals that are required and then you build a plan. And exactly how we approach in establishing a center of excellence that drives the automation with rigor, knowing where you are and where you want to get to, >>What's the team look like in a, in a, who's on the bus, You know, who's who's, who's in in the circle if you will. How do you com you know, build, you've written about this, it's like a sports team. You put it together, you need be a quarterback, you need a lineman, you need, you know, wide receivers who's on the center of excellence team. >>So the way you always build the center of excellence is making sure that your business partners and the senior leadership team is committed to the entire automation journey. That's the key ingredient for success. Then you build, one of the critical aspect is the talent, the quarterback, you said the talent. In today's world, automation talent is just not about knowing, you know, RPA techniques or you know, process optimization, but it is an end to end technology stack starting from cloud to data to analytics and entire platform capabilities of automation that combined and coupled with change management and how do you drive an enterprise chain management is very, very critical in terms of implementing automation. >>Absolutely. Lauren, I'm curious, did, did Accenture bring UI path to Whirlpool or did you bring, or did you bring Accenture in and UI path in together? How, how did that interaction? >>Yes. So we brought Accenture in and they really helped us along with that journey and they brought UI path to us. Our European business was actually using Blue Prism and that's when we said no, we wanna standardize specifically on UI path and make sure from a global standpoint we're using the same tooling. And that really helped that as we were building our team, we leaned on their expertise and then even we're retooling people within our corporation of, hey, we took our SAP lead, our GCP lead to be our technical architect and and people that could help speak the language and translate from process and explain that doesn't have to be a large project and explain what automation is to help drive return investment for sure. >>Now you're early in, but have you seen results, you know so far? Can you talk about that, quantify it in any way or? >>Absolutely. So we started our journey December of 2020. We've automated about 60 or so bots, but really everything that we've done is based on hours saved. So we're at about 60,000 hours automated and with some of our biggest, like our big box stores and our KitchenAid small appliances, we've even had hard dollar savings that we had a bot that went live about in 60 days. We had a $3 million return and take took out 3000 hours of human interaction. That was great for us. >>So the world's kind of a mess right now. You got supply chain issues, you got inflation, you got a recession, you got the United States. Anyway, you got the Fed trying to figure out, oh there's sling shoting, you know, some people are, you know, really hurting stock market is starting to show that there's a lot of confusion out there. The world is changed quite a bit obviously the last few years. How do you guys see it? What role has, I wonder if both of you could answer, what role has automation played in helping like, for instance, Whirlpool with maybe supply chain problems or maybe bigger forecasting and, and what are you seeing across organizations? But Lauren if you could start. >>Absolutely. So for us being able to show improvement in a six to eight week development cycle and instead of saying here's a heavy dollar investment or a new tooling that you gotta get people resources up to speed on, we can take where we are today, automate save hours where we're getting our employee engagement scores of I'm overworked, I have too much on my plate, how can you help me? And automation is there to support and that's really helped our business one take unnecessary work off their plate and show very quick value add to the business without having to have huge dollar investments in our, I'm you trying to save money. >>Are people, what are you seeing in terms of, so some of the problems that people I see as sign out here said, oh, in inflation at five to 7% go after productivity and make it in 20% gains. I mean, what are you seeing in the field? >>More than ever, More than ever, automation is more relevant now given the current economy environment that we are operating. Because automation always free up or optimizers the capacity that every enterprise has. Optimizing capacity is very important so that you can take your talented employees and the talented resources to do more strategic transformation program, which helps to sustain and stay and scale in your business. So I see that automation playing a significant role to impact business imperative. >>What are some of the common misconceptions? I mean we talk a lot about people's fear of automation. You know, I don't think that's necessarily a misconception. I think a lot of times people are fearful about automating though. Maybe they, they shouldn't be. We had Dentsu on today, DS like, you know, this giant global branding firm and they get a lot of young kids, they're like, No, bring it on. I don't want to do all this mundane stuff. But you know, a lot of folks are are are concerned, but, so that maybe is one misconception. Are there others, Lauren, that you found that you can share? >>I think we were lucky that we didn't necessarily have that fear of being replaced by automation. I think our change management plan really helped drive that. We included some fun things of any time a bot went live you got almost like a birth certificate of here's the process we save for you, here's how it's grown over six, six months, 12 months, 18 months. But I'm not sure if we had any other major gaps like that or or pitfalls >>Or, or p anything that, >>So my philosophy is automation is human plus machine combination. You can't run just, you know, people can't think that, you know, if my task get automated, I lose the, I lose my my jobs. That's not how it works because you, you do need human expertise, competency skills to kind of argument what you do with automation. And most important thing when you do this change is that most of the enterprises do not believe, do not understand that you have to get even process, right? You don't want to, you know, have an inefficient process and put automation on the top of it. Then you just made your inefficiency run more faster. So you need to kind of make sure that you address inefficiency, optimize your process, then infuse automation, then have human plus machine capability to strengthen your automation. >>Is it really that easy? Sounds easy, right? It, >>So from an, from an Accenture perspective, if you're, if you're looking at the market as a whole or looking at industry verticals, what's the difference between an organization that is leveraging automation and an organization that is not leveraging organ leveraging automation? Is there, is there sort of a range of percentage of efficiency that you can put on that? What does it mean for their bottom line? >>Essent, you must have data on this. Yeah, I mean what, >>Yeah, >>Today, today's world in the technology world, every organization understands the importance of automation that's given. That's a table stake. Now, where an organization is in the journey differs some of the enterprises maybe at the beginning of the maturity spectrum. In my book I talk about automation maturity framework wherein there are the initial stages of automation. Some of them are intelligent automation at the end of the spectrum where they're using data cloud and AI to drive the automation journey. But in every enterprise, the key success of automation depends upon whether you do automation and enterprisewide not in a silo in the organization, but if you do enterprise wide apply across, you get a lot more benefits, lot more efficiency to drive. >>Does does automation being more strategic or key? Does it, does it in a way make investments in automation more, more scrutinized or more circumspect? I, I would, I would use the term discretionary. We heard Bobby Patrick today say this is not discretionary, it's strategic to me. If it's strategic it might be a mandate but it's might be something I can kick down the road. What are you seeing there in the field just in terms of overall demand and sentiment? >>Automation today, as I said, is a table stake. When it becomes an integrated DNA of enterprise, it is always, you know, whether you want to call one pillar of strategy, key DNA of your strategic roadmap you are in investments have to be directly proportional to what you want to accomplish as your business KPIs to thrive and deliver your business with. Otherwise, if you do it as like a one off thing, you know you won't get the benefit. Yeah. >>Or from your standpoint, where do you want to take the automation initiative inside a whirlpool? How are you thinking about scaling it? What have you learned that you can apply to driving scale? >>So we put some strict governance in place who weren't just automating everything under the sun cuz >>Wild west >>Yeah, I can't support that. Right? So we made sure that everything had at least less than a one year invest return on investment and 500 hours worth of automation for us to even consider it as part of our coe. So because of that, we do have some automations that would make sense, but that's why we're looking at a citizen development program or low code, no code. What other types of options are there to make sure that it does become a part of our culture and dna that you can automate those even small parts of your workflow to, to make your day better. >>When, when you're looking at those workflows, do you, are you, are you literally looking over someone's shoulder with a stopwatch and measuring, Measuring how time >>And motion studies? No >>Question. Yeah. I mean is it time and motion studies? I mean, is that sort of the entry level data that that you use or is it more, or is it more automated than that? >>I would say it's a little more automated than that, but we do sit down and we ask our business process, show me what this process looks like to you. And then from that we can take some task mining and look at, okay, how long did it take you to do this? How often are you doing it? And then based on how long the automation would take, see how many hours are saved and how many people are doing that same task on a monthly, daily, weekly basis. >>Great. All right guys, thanks so much for coming in the cube and sharing your story. A whirlpool and always love to have Accenture on. You guys got such a massive observation space, global depth of industry. So thank you very much both. Thank you. Thank you. You're very welcome. All right, keep it right there. Dave Nicholson and Dave Ante will be back right to the short break, you watching the cubes coverage of UI path forward. Five live from Las Vegas.

The Cube presents UI Path Forward five. Brought to you by UI Path. >>We're back at forward five UI Paths, Big customer event. We're here in the Venetian, formerly the Sands Convention Center, Dave Ante and David Nicholson. Javier Castanos is here. He's the Robot Factory director. How's that for a title for Orange ESP Spania. And he's joined by Niva Pillow, who is Senior Director of Telecommunications Industry at UiPath. Folks, welcome to the Cube. Thank you. Thanks for coming on, Javier. Just off the keynote, it was really amazing to see what you were doing with your dashboard, how much you've operationalized automation, you really far down the journey. But I wanna start with your title. I've never seen this before. Robot Factory director, that's unique. What is that all about? >>Yeah, the Robot Factory is our brand to create the RPA journey to involve all the company in this amazing story regarding automation, because for us, automation is only a piece of the digital transformation and the culture transformation for the employees. >>Your robot factory obviously builds robots. Yeah. For employees and employees build them as well. >>Yeah, both. We have two different ways to, to build robots. We have a citizen developer program with more than 500 and employees certified in UiPath technology, and they build a small robot for the daily task for avoid repetitive task, very board. And in the other hand we have the robot factory team automating the business. The core business processes very complex in the telco industry, you know, and both teams working together, the community of employees, the best ambassadors for to find new opportunities and for discovery for robots and the robot factory are automating real complex processes to impacting our customer satisfaction. >>So if a, if a, if a citizen developer develops a robot, does the factory then have to audit it and make sure it's governed? Or do you add a, maybe I'm not such a good developer. Do you make it better? How does that collaboration work? >>The good thing is with you at Pat, you don't need to be a tech guy. You, you can be a finance guy and every morning you need a report, create an Excel, create a graph, put in a power point and send to your box. And you can create by your own a robot doing that task and going to the bending to take a coffee in, in the meantime that the robot is working. And as soon as you discover in your domain a complex tax, you can call us and say, Hey guys, I need your job because we need to ize this process. You need traceability. And we have a big savings below the desk. It's not only my health, it's the area work. >>Now, Navage, you specialize in the telecommunications industry. Now of course, the telcos are going through a massive transformation. It's almost, I call it revenge. The, the telcos now they're coming back with 5g. It's gonna be a great new future. But what kind of patterns are you seeing in the industry for automation? >>Sure. Look, as you said, telecoms going through quite a transformational era. There's this huge demand for connectivity around the whole world, and that presents opportunities and some challenges. But the key areas of focus right now is really helping the telecom achieve their strategic goals. And they include the customer experience at the most significant point, and thereafter driving a few more efficiencies and improving the employee experience. But organizations like Orange, you know, they start with the customer experience. These are large areas, but they tend to be the patterns where we are really helping telecoms transform and deliver better outcomes. >>Javi, I'm I'm curious about the concept of the citizen developer. Now you said that they don't have to have a deep technical background and they may come from finance or other places, but how do you, how do you recruit these people? What's in it for them? I, I can understand automating a process that is repetitive, mundane, something they don't want to do. But is there ever a concern that they might be automating themselves out of a job? >>Yeah, the, the people use Dex Excel and 30 years ago, Dex Excel does not assist and change our work. Your iPad technology is more or less the same. It's changing the way that you are working with your desktop every morning. You can create for your daily task a robot by yourself and executing your corporate desktop. And then you can save this time or use to improve your satisfaction as employee. Because sometimes in, in, in this kind of companies, we have a telecommunications engineering with a lot of talent making repetitive task. And with this technology, you can use your talent only to improve the processes. So we train these people in Miami, the training is very easy. A robot enter on the web searching, Google make different search regarding prices on, on device creates an Excel and only in a few hours that kind of people that we have in all companies that very easy excel some macros and these kind of things is the people prepared to jump to the next step to the robotization. So in all areas, in all departments, there are people prepared. In our company, 500 people. >>I, I'd like to get into a little mini case study if we could, and understand orange esp Spania is way deep. You should see this dashboard that Javier showed. I mean it's amazing, I think you said 7 million euro business benefit so far to date. But you can slice it and dice it and look at a lot of different angles. But where did you get started? Did you get started? Was it a bottoms up? In other words, an individual started to automate on their desktop. Was it a top down? The, the, the CEO said this is, we're gonna automate. How did it, I mean I'm sure you get this question a lot nivo, but where did it start at Orange? >>Yeah. Our story is very linked with the finance department because the citizen developer are saving internal hours and transforming the employee satisfaction and improving the talent and the reskilling of the people. But in the other hand, from the efficiency point of view, if you look for, for the finance approach, what happened, we, we take one profit and now domain perhaps 80% of the process. And next month the invoice reduce because your external cost disappear because the robot is making the task is improving the satisfaction of the customers. Because sometimes we have a, a human back office or another kind of task. And the compliance, the, the SLAs, the, the, the delay on time with all the people disappear with the robots because the robots are working at night. We can and repeating the job, 1, 1 1. And every tracking of that task are controlled by finance. Because if you save in a transaction three minutes, when you multiply for a thousand, a thousand, thousand tasks, you save on real time, you can see how much money you are saving and making the the things better. Not only a question of money is a question of money, but a attempt below that the customer is, is taking better experience for us. >>Robots don't sleep Nova. >>I never, >>So you started in finance and how much have you gone permeated other parts of the organization? What other parts of the organization are adopting RPA and automation? Where are you on that journey? >>More or less? Our eight, nine hundred and fifty three FTS equivalent robots working okay's like a contact center. It's robots navigating through the user interface applications, making transactions for our customers. So when you put in the middle of your customer relation, you can transform all because if a human agent is making a very complex process for, because telco is a complex market and very fast, perhaps the robot can help the human agent saving time and taking advantage of that part of, of the operations. And at the end, the operation is short and the customer satisfaction is better. And we measure the MPAs, the net, the net promoter score. And when you combine human agents with robots, the satisfaction improve because the transaction is made on real time very fast and doesn't fail. >>Is this a common story nivas that you're seeing in Telco in terms of the, the starting points? Does it tend to be bottoms up? Does it more top down? What are you seeing in >>Look, it actually varies by telecom. You know, Orange started their journey with us four years ago. So companies that have started while they tend to start in finance or IT or, or hr, but the customer experience I think is the ultimate area where many telecoms focus and what Harvey Edge just shared is it doesn't matter if a customer's calling you through a contact center or reaching you through a chatbot. They want their issue resolved at the first point. And what the robots do is they integrate information from multiple sources and provide that data to the agent so you can actually resolve the issue. And that is the beautiful example of humans and robots working together. Because if you know what the data's telling you, if it's a billing issue and a customer's been been billed because they have gone overseas and used international roaming and they weren't aware that the contract had that as a leader or a person in a contact center, you can make the right decision quite often. It takes a long time to find the data, but in this way you can actually address the issue real time, first point of resolution. And we're seeing up to 60% increase in first time resolutions across telecoms, irrespective of whether it's a chat bot or a contact center or a service desk. >>That's key. I mean, that's as a, that's consumer, that's what you just want to get off the phone or you want to get off the chat notice. So I have to ask you, what would you say is your secret to success? >>The secret is to be transparent with the organization, serve the savings and put on the table. We put on the table to the finance guys every month, all the robots that we put in production the month before and it's finance will declare officially the savings for each robot. As soon as you reach this, the credibility appear because it's not the robot factory team telling Aren, saving a lot of money of the company. No, no. It's the finance guys that trust on you. And as soon as you ask more money to buy more license or to improve the processes on whatever finance say, okay, these guys, as soon as we invest money in robots, we obtain twice or three times more by savings and they are improving not only for the quantity point of view, the quality is improving too. Because when you, a brief example, when you have a wifi problem connection and you call to our contact center, there is an ecosystem for more than 25 robots working from the beginning of your call, testing your line and making decisions. If we are going to send you a new router or you have a connectivity problem or, and the robot decide of, we are going to send to you a new install at your home and then the human manage you and take the conversation. But all the decisions are made by robots. So it's very powerful from the point of view of customer satisfaction. >>So what I'm hearing is you started four years ago. Yeah. And it, it, the ROI for your first instantiation was very fast, I presume inside of 12 months or what was the, how fast did you get a return with >>In the first three months we developed 25 robots and we saved more than 1 million to the company in three >>Months. In three months. Okay. So it was self-funding. >>Yeah. >>Right. You took that million dollars and you said, Okay, let's double down on that. Let's do it again. Do it again. Do it >>Again. It's only a question of resources and budget and only companies wants to create robots, but sometimes big companies only put on that one people to people. From the beginning of our story, we put 13 people and a budget. So if you have resources, the things happen be because the process are very accomplished. Sometimes you start one process. Sometimes our block, and we started at the beginning, a lot of process and imagine in telco we developed 900 processes, but every day we have a new opportunity for discovery. So I, I think the scalability is, is, is a challenge, but it's very, is possible if you put people and money >>And we, we focused on, we talk a lot in, in, in the broader IT world about the edge. And so I sort of think of these citizen developers as living at the edge. Part of your robot factory is at the core of the enterprise also. Is that, is that correct? Yes. >>Yes. >>Now what, what is, what has that looked like in terms of ROI cycles and development cycles? What kinds of projects do you work on at the core that are, that are different than what citizen soldiers are doing at the edge? >>Yeah. When, when we need to apply a discount or change your taif or switch on your bonus or your voicemail, that kind of transactions with impacting customers are made by the robot factory with robots made by the robot factory team. With a big traceability. With a big security because okay, with, with human awake the robot, we need to, to make a traceability because we have thousand of agents in the contact center working with robots and we have a lot of security disability and these kind of things. But in the other hand, internally we have a lot of task and a lot of processes for the citizen developers. There are very important tasks for the employee, perhaps not impacting in, in final customers, but we combine both. Because if you only work in one way, the citizen developer are making a lot of savings in terms of internal hours, but it's not real money. But in the other hand, you have the robot factory business processes impacting the money, combining both, you obtain the most powerful tool because the ambassadors, the, the, the employees are discovering you new opportunities. >>Last question, Javier, Why did you choose UiPath? What were the determining factors four years ago? >>Yeah, we, we were researching a lot in the market, but UiPath is pretty easy. You don't need to be an IT guy. People from, from customer care, people from finance in every areas. We have a lot of people learning this, this technology because it's easy, intuitive and very nice from the point of view of look and field. >>This a common story. This is really, we've reported on this a lot. This is how you UiPath really was able to get its foothold in the marketplace because of the simplicity. If you look at the legacy tools and even some of the modern tools, they were a lot more complicated. Now of course, UiPath is expanding its platform. So thank you very much. Don't welcome. Thank, thanks for coming. Thank you very much. Appreciate it. All right, you, you're gonna hear a lot of customer stories cuz that's what UI path brings in the cube. Proof is in the pudding. We right back at forward five from Las Vegas. Keep it right there.

>> Announcer: theCUBE presents HPE Discover 2022, brought to you by HPE. >> We're back at the formerly the Sands Convention Center, it's called the Venetian Convention Center now, Dave Vellante and John Furrier here covering day three, HPE Discover 2022, it's hot outside, it's cool in here, and we're going to heat it up with Rashmi Kumar, who's the Senior Vice President and CIO of Hewlett Packard Enterprise, great to see you face to face, it's been a while. >> Same here, last couple of years, we were all virtual. >> Yeah, that's right. So we've talked before about sort of your internal as-a-service transformation, you know, we do call it dog fooding, everybody likes to course correct and say, no, no, it's drinking your own champagne, is it really that pretty? >> It is, and the way I put it is, no pressure to my product teams, it's being customer zero. >> Right, take us through the acceleration on how everything's been going with you guys, obviously, the pandemic was an impact to certainly the CIO role and your team but now you've got GreenLake coming in and Antonio's big statement before the pandemic, by 2022 everything will be as a service and then everything went remote, VPNs and all this new stuff, how's it going? >> Yeah, so from business perspective, that's a great point to start that, right? Antonio promised in 2019 that HPE will be Everything-as-a-Service company and he had no view of what's going to happen with COVID. But guess what? So many businesses became digital and as-a-service during those two years, right? And now we came back this year, it was so exciting to be part of Discover when now we are Everything-as-a-Service. So great from business perspective but, when I look at our own transformation, behind the scene, what IT has been busy with and we haven't caught a breadth because of pandemic, we have taken care of all that change, but at the same time have driven our transformation to make HPE, edge to cloud platform as a service company. >> You know, I saw a survey, I referenced it earlier today, it was a survey, I think it was been by Couchbase, it was a CIO survey, so they asked, who was responsible at your organization for the digital transformation? And overwhelming, like 75% said, CIO, which surprised me 'cause, you know, in line with the business and so forth but in fact I thought, well, maybe, because of the forced march to digital that's what was top of their mind, so who is responsible for, and I know it's not just one person, for the digital transformation? Describe that dynamic. >> Yeah, so definitely it's not one person, but you do need that whole accountable, responsible, informed, right, in the context of digital transformation. And you call them CIO, you call them CDIO or CDO and whatnot but, end of the day, technology is becoming an imperative for a business to be successful and COVID alone has accelerated it, I'm repeating this maybe millions time if you Google it but, CIOs are best positioned because they connect the dots across organization. In my organization at HPE, we embarked upon this large transformation where we were consolidating 10 different ERPs, multiple master data system into one and it wasn't about doing digital which is e-commerce website or one technology, it was creating that digital foundation for the company then to transform that entire organization to be a physical product company to a digital product company. And we needed that foundation for us to get that code to cash experience, not only in our traditional business, but in our as-a-service company. >> So maybe that wasn't confirmation bias, I want to ask you about, we've been talking a lot about sustainability and I've made the comment that, if you go back, you know, 10, 12 years and you were CIO IT at that time, CIO really didn't care about the energy bill, that was paid for by facilities, they really didn't talk to each other much and that's completely changed, why has it changed? How should a CIO, how do your your peers think about energy costs today? >> Yeah, so, at some point look, ESG is the biggest agenda for companies, regulators, even kind of the watchers of ISS and Glass Lewis type thing and boards are becoming aware of it. If you look at 2-4% of greenhouse emission comes from infrastructure, specifically technology infrastructure, as part of this transformation within HPE, I also did what I call private cloud transformation. Remember, it's not data center transformation, it's private cloud transformation. And if you can take your traditional workload and cloudify it which runs on a GreenLake type platform, it's currently 30% more efficient than traditional way of handling the workload and the infrastructure but, we recently published our green living progress report and we talk about efficiency, by 2020 if you have achieved three times, the plan is to get to 30 times by 2050 where, infrastructure will not contribute to energy bill in turn the greenhouse emission as well. I think CIOs are responsible multifold on the sustainability piece. One is how they run their data center, make it efficient with GreenLake type implementations, demand from your hyperscaler to provide that, what Fidelma just launched, sustainability scorecard of the infrastructure, second piece is, we are the data gods in the company, right? We have access to all kinds of data, provide that to the product teams and have them, if we cannot measure, we cannot improve. So if you work with your product team, work with your BU leader, provide them data around greenhouse gas and how they're impacting a mission through their products and how can they make it better going forward, and that can be done through technology, right? All the measurements come from technology. So what technology we need to provide to our manufacturing lines so that they can monitor and improve on the sustainability front as well. >> You mentioned data, I wanted to bring that up 'cause I was going to bring that up in another top track here, data as an asset now is at play, so I get the data on the sustainability, feed that in, but as companies go to the cloud operating model, they go, hey, I got the hyperscalers, you call microscale, Amazon for instance, and you got on-premises data center, which is a large edge and you got the edge, the data control plane, and then the control plane and the data plane are always seem to be like the battle ground, I want to control the data plane, will customers own the data plane or will the infrastructure providers control that data plane? And how do you see that? Because we want to power the machine learning, so data plane control plane, it seems to be like the new middleware, what's your view on that? How do you look at that holistically? >> Yeah, so I'll start based on the hyperscaler conversation, right? And I had this conversation with one of the very big ones recently, or even our partner, SAP, when they talk about RISE, data center and how I host my application infrastructure, that's the lowest common denominator of our job. When I talk about CIOs being responsible for digital transformation, that means how do I make my business process more innovative? How do I make my data more accessible, right? So, if you look at data as an asset for the company, it's again, they're responsible, accountable. As CIO, I'm responsible to have it managed, have it on a technology platform, which makes it accessible by it and our business leader accountable to define the right metrics, right kind of KPIs, drive outcome from that data. IT organization, we are also too busy driving a lot of activities and today's world is going to bad business outcome. So with the data that I'm collecting, how do I enable my business leader to be able to drive business outcome through the use of the data? That's extremely important, and at HPE, we have achieved it, there are two ways, right? Now I have one single ERP, so all the data that I need for what I call operational reporting, get hindsight and insight is available at one place and they can drive their day to day business with that, but longer term, what's going to happen based on what happened, which I call insight to foresight comes from a integrated data platform, which I have control of, and you know, we are fragmenting it because companies now have Databox, Snowflake, AWS data analytics tool, Azure data analytics tool, I call it data torture. CIOs should get control of common set of data and enable their businesses to define better measurements and KPIs to be able to drive the data. >> So data's a crown jewel then, it's crown jewel not-- >> Can we double-click on that because, okay, so you take your ERP system, the consumers of data in the ERP system, they have the context that we've kind of operationalized those systems. We haven't operationalized our analytics systems in the same way, which is kind of a weird dynamic, and so you, right, I think correctly noted Rashmi that, we are creating all these stove pipes. Now, think I heard from you, you're gaining control of those stove pipes, but then how do you put data back in the hands of those line of business users without having to go through a hyper specialized analytics team? And that's a real challenge I think for data. >> It is challenge and I'll tell you, it's messy even in my world but, I have dealt with data long enough, the value lies in how do I take control of all stove pipes, bring it all together, but don't make it a data lake which is built out of multiple puddles, that data lake promise hasn't delivered, right? So the value lies in the conformed layer which then it's easier for businesses to access and run their analytics from, because they need a playground because all the answers they don't have, on the operation side, as you mentioned, we got it, right? It'll happen, but on the fore site side and deeper insight side based on driving the key metrics, two challenges; understanding what's the key metrics in KPI, but the second is, how to drive visibility and understanding of it. So we need to get technology out of the conversation, bring in understanding of the data into the conversation and we need to drive towards that path. >> As a business, you know, line of business person putting that hat on, I would love to have this conversation with my CIO because I would say, I just want self-service infrastructure and I want to have access to the data that I need, I know what metrics I need to run my business so now I want the technology to be just a technical detail, you take care of that and then somebody in the organization, probably not the line of business person wants to make sure that that data is governed and secure. So there's somebody else and that maybe is your responsibility, so how do you handle that real problem? So I think you're well on the track with GreenLake for self-serve infrastructure, right, how do you handle the sort of automated governance piece of it, make that computational? Yeah, so one thing is technology is important because that's bringing all the data together at one place with single version of truth. And then, that's why I say my sons are data scientist, by the way, I tell them that the magic happens at the intersection of technology knowledge, data knowledge, and business knowledge, and that's where the talent, which is very hard to find who can connect dots across these three kind of circles and focus on that middle where the value lies and pushing businesses to, because, you know, business is messy, I've worked on pharma companies, utilities, now technology, order does not mean revenue, right? There's a lot more that happen and pricing or chargeback, rebates, all that things, if somebody can kind of make sense out of it through incremental innovation, it's not like a big bang I know it all, but finding those areas and applying what you said, I call it the G word, governance, to make sure your source is right and then creating that conform layer then makes into the dashboard the right information about those types of metrics is extreme. >> And then bringing that to the ecosystem, now I just made it 10 times more complicated. >> Yeah, this is a great conversation, we on theCUBE interview one time we're talking about the old software days where shrink-wrap software be on the shelf, you wouldn't know if was successful until you looked at the sales data, well after the fact, now everything's instrumented, SaaS companies, you know exactly what the adoption is, either people like it or they don't, the data doesn't lie. So now companies are realizing, okay, I got data, I can instrument everything, your customers are now saying, I can get to the value fast now. So knowing what that value is is what everyone's talking about. How do you see that changing the data equation? >> Yeah, that's so true even for our business, right? If you talk to Fidelma today, who is our CTO, she's bringing together the platform and multiple platforms that we had so far to go to as-a-service business, right? Infosite, Aruba Central, GLCP, or now we call it it's all HPE GreenLake, but now this gives us the opportunity to really be a alongside customer. It's no more, I sold a box, I'll come back to you three years later for a refresh, now we are in touch with our customer real time through Telemetry data that's coming from our products and really understanding how our customers are reacting with that, right? And that's where we instantiated what we call is a federated data lake where, marketing, product, sales, all teams can come together and look at what's going on. Customer360, right? Data is locked in Salesforce from opportunity, leads, codes perspective, and then real time orders are locked in S4. The challenge is, how do we bring both together so that our sales people have on their fingertip whats the install base look like, how much business that we did and the traditional side and the GreenLake side and what are the opportunities here to support our customers? >> Real quick, I know we don't have a lot of time left, but I want to touch on machine learning, which basically feeds AI, machine learning, AI go together, it's only as good as the data you can provide to it. So to your point about exposing the data while having the stove pipes for compliance and governance, how do you architect that properly? You mentioned federated data lake and earlier you said the data lake promise hasn't come back, is it data meshes? What is the architecture to have as much available data to be addressed by applications while preserving the protection? >> Yeah, so, machine learning and AI, I will also add chatbots and conversational AI, right? Because that becomes the front end of it. And that's kind of the automation process promise in the data space, right? So, the point is that, if we talk about federated data lake around one capability which I'm talking about GreenLake consumption, right? So one piece is around, how do I get data cleanly? How do I relate it across various products? How do I create metrics out of it? But how do I make it more accessible for our users? And that's where the conversational AI and chatbot comes in. And then the opportunity comes in is around not only real time, but analytics, I believe Salesforce had a pitch called customer insight few years ago, where they said, we have so many of you on our platform, now I can combine all the data that I can access and want to give you a view of how every company is interacting with their customer and how you can improve it, that's where we want to go. And I completely agree, it ends up being clean data, governed data, secure data, but having that understanding of what we want to project out and how do I make it accessible for our users very seamlessly. >> Last question, what's your number one challenge right now in this post isolation world? >> Talent, we haven't talked about that, right? >> Got to get that out there. >> All these promises, right, the entire end to end foundational transformation, as-a-service transformation, talking about the promise of data analytics, we talked about governance and security, all that is possible because of the talent we have or we will have, and our ability to attract and retain them. So as CIO, I personally spend a lot of time, CEO, John Schultz, Antonio, very, very focused on creating that employee experience and what we call everything is edge for us, so edge to office initiative where we are giving them hybrid work capabilities, people are very passionate about purpose, so sustainability, quality, all these are big deal for them, making sure that senior leadership is focused on the right thing, so, hybrid working capability, hiring the right set of people with the right skill set and keeping them excited about the work we are doing, having a purpose, and being honest about it means I haven't seen a more authentic leader than Antonio, who opens up his keynote for this type of convention, with the purpose that he's very passionate about in current environment. >> Awesome, Rashmi, always great to have you on, wonderful to have you face to face, such a clear thinker in bringing your experience to our audience, really appreciate it. >> Thank you, I'm a big consumer of CUBE and look forward to having-- >> All right, and keep it right there, John and I will be back to wrap up with Norm Follett, from HPE discover 2022, you're watching theCUBE. 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>> Announcer: theCube presents HPE Discover 2022 brought to you by HPE. >> Hello and welcome back to theCube's continuous coverage HPE Discover 2022 and from Las Vegas the formerly Sands Convention Center now Venetian, John Furrier and Dave Vellante here were excited to welcome in Jen Huffstetler. Who's the Chief product Sustainability Officer at Intel Jen, welcome to theCube thanks for coming on. >> Thank you very much for having me. >> You're really welcome. So you dial back I don't know, the last decade and nobody really cared about it but some people gave it lip service but corporations generally weren't as in tune, what's changed? Why has it become so top of mind? >> I think in the last year we've noticed as we all were working from home that we had a greater appreciation for the balance in our lives and the impact that climate change was having on the world. So I think across the globe there's regulations industry and even personally, everyone is really starting to think about this a little more and corporations specifically are trying to figure out how are they going to continue to do business in these new regulated environments. >> And IT leaders generally weren't in tune cause they weren't paying the power bill for years it was the facilities people, but then they started to come together. How should leaders in technology, business tech leaders, IT leaders, CIOs, how should they be thinking about their sustainability goals? >> Yeah, I think for IT leaders specifically they really want to be looking at the footprint of their overall infrastructure. So whether that is their on-prem data center, their cloud instances, what can they do to maximize the resources and lower the footprint that they contribute to their company's overall footprint. So IT really has a critical role to play I think because as you'll find in IT, the carbon footprint of the data center of those products in use is actually it's fairly significant. So having a focus there will be key. >> You know compute has always been one of those things where, you know Intel's been makes chips so that, you know heat is important in compute. What is Intel's current goals? Give us an update on where you guys are at. What's the ideal goal in the long term? Where are you now? You guys always had a focus on this for a long, long time. Where are we now? Cause I won't say the goalpost of changed, they're changing the definitions of what this means. What's the current state of Intel's carbon footprint and overall goals? >> Yeah, no thanks for asking. As you mentioned, we've been invested in lowering our environmental footprint for decades in fact, without action otherwise, you know we've already lowered our carbon footprint by 75%. So we're really in that last mile. And that is why when we recently announced a very ambitious goal Net-Zero 2040 for our scope one and two for manufacturing operations, this is really an industry leading goal. And partly because the technology doesn't even exist, right? For the chemistries and for making the silicon into the sand into, you know, computer chips yet. And so by taking this bold goal, we're going to be able to lead the industry, partner with academia, partner with consortia, and that drive is going to have ripple effects across the industry and all of the components in semiconductors. >> Is there a changing definition of Net-Zero? What that means, cause some people say they're Net-Zero and maybe in one area they might be but maybe holistically across the company as it becomes more of a broader mandate society, employees, partners, Wall Street are all putting pressure on companies. Is the Net-Zero conversation changed a little bit or what's your view on that? >> I think we definitely see it changing with changing regulations like those coming forth from the SEC here in the US and in Europe. Net-Zero can't just be lip service anymore right? It really has to be real reductions on your footprint. And we say then otherwise and even including in our supply chain goals what we've taken new goals to reduce, but our operations are growing. So I think everybody is going through this realization that you know, with the growth, how do we keep it lower than it would've been otherwise, keep focusing on those reductions and have not just renewable credits that could have been bought in one location and applied to a different geographical location but real credible offsets for where the the products manufactured or the computes deployed. >> Jen, when you talk about you've reduced already by 75% you're on that last mile. We listened to Pat Gelsinger very closely up until recently he was the number one most frequently had on theCube guest. He's been busy I guess. But as you apply that discipline to where you've been, your existing business and now Pat's laid out this plan to increase the Foundry business how does that affect your... Are you able to carry through that reduction to, you know, the new foundries? Do you have to rethink that? How does that play in? >> Certainly, well, the Foundry expansion of our business with IBM 2.0 is going to include the existing factories that already have the benefit of those decades of investment and focus. And then, you know we have clear goals for our new factories in Ohio, in Europe to achieve goals as well. That's part of the overall plan for Net-Zero 2040. It's inclusive of our expansion into Foundry which means that many, many many more customers are going to be able to benefit from the leadership that Intel has here. And then as we onboard acquisitions as any company does we need to look at the footprint of the acquisition and see what we can do to align it with our overall goals. >> Yeah so sustainable IT I don't know for some reason was always an area of interest to me. And when we first started, even before I met you, John we worked with PG&E to help companies get rebates for installing technologies that would reduce their carbon footprint. >> Jen: Very forward thinking. >> And it was a hard thing to get, you know, but compute was the big deal. And there were technologies and I remember virtualization at the time was one and we would go in and explain to the PG&E engineers how that all worked. Cause they had metrics and that they wanted to see, but anyway, so virtualization was clearly one factor. What are the technologies today that people should be paying, flash storage was another one. >> John: AI's going to have a big impact. >> Reduce the spinning disk, but what are the ones today that are going to have an impact? >> Yeah, no, that's a great question. We like to think of the built in acceleration that we have including some of the early acceleration for virtualization technologies as foundational. So built in accelerated compute is green compute and it allows you to maximize the utilization of the transistors that you already have deployed in your data center. This compute is sitting there and it is ready to be used. What matters most is what you were talking about, John that real world workload performance. And it's not just you know, a lot of specsmanship around synthetic benchmarks, but AI performance with the built in acceleration that we have in Xeon processors with the Intel DL Boost, we're able to achieve four X, the AI performance per Watts without you know, doing that otherwise. You think about the consolidation you were talking about that happened with virtualization. You're basically effectively doing the same thing with these built in accelerators that we have continued to add over time and have even more coming in our Sapphire Generation. >> And you call that green compute? Or what does that mean, green compute? >> Well, you are greening your compute. >> John: Okay got it. >> By increasing utilization of your resources. If you're able to deploy AI, utilize the telemetry within the CPU that already exists. We have customers KDDI in Japan has a great Proofpoint that they already announced on their 5G data center, lowered their data center power by 20%. That is real bottom line impact as well as carbon footprint impact by utilizing all of those built in capabilities. So, yeah. >> We've heard some stories earlier in the event here at Discover where there was some cooling innovations that was powering moving the heat to power towns and cities. So you start to see, and you guys have been following this data center and been part of the whole, okay and hot climates, you have cold climates, but there's new ways to recycle energy where's that cause that sounds very Sci-Fi to me that oh yeah, the whole town runs on the data center exhaust. So there's now systems thinking around compute. What's your reaction to that? What's the current view on re-engineering a system to take advantage of that energy or recycling? >> I think when we look at our vision of sustainable compute over this horizon it's going to be required, right? We know that compute helps to solve society's challenges and the demand for it is not going away. So how do we take new innovations looking at a systems level as compute gets further deployed at the edge, how do we make it efficient? How do we ensure that that compute can be deployed where there is air pollution, right? So some of these technologies that you have they not only enable reuse but they also enable some you know, closing in of the solution to make it more robust for edge deployments. It'll allow you to place your data center wherever you need it. It no longer needs to reside in one place. And then that's going to allow you to have those energy reuse benefits either into district heating if you're in, you know Northern Europe or there's examples with folks putting greenhouses right next to a data center to start growing food in what we're previously food deserts. So I don't think it's science fiction. It is how we need to rethink as a society. To utilize everything we have, the tools at our hand. >> There's a commercial on the radio, on the East Coast anyway, I don't know if you guys have heard of it, it's like, "What's your one thing?" And the gentleman comes on, he talks about things that you can do to help the environment. And he says, "What's your one thing?" So what's the one thing or maybe it's not just one that IT managers should be doing to affect carbon footprint? >> The one thing to affect their carbon footprint, there are so many things. >> Dave: Two, three, tell me. >> I think if I was going to pick the one most impactful thing that they could do in their infrastructure is it's back to John's comment. It's imagine if the world deployed AI, all the benefits not only in business outcomes, you know the revenue, lowering the TCO, but also lowering the footprint. So I think that's the one thing they could do. If I could throw in a baby second, it would be really consider how you get renewable energy into your computing ecosystem. And then you know, at Intel, when we're 80% renewable power, our processors are inherently low carbon because of all the work that we've done others have less than 10% renewable energy. So you want to look for products that have low carbon by design, any Intel based system and where you can get renewables from your grid to ask for it, run your workload there. And even the next step to get to sustainable computing it's going to take everyone, including every enterprise to think differently and really you know, consider what would it look like to bring renewables onto my site? If I don't have access through my local utility and many customers are really starting to evaluate that. >> Well Jen its great to have you on theCube. Great insight into the current state of the art of sustainability and carbon footprint. My final question for you is more about the talent out there. The younger generation coming in I'll say the pressure, people want to work for a company that's mission driven we know that, the Wall Street impact is going to be financial business model and then save the planet kind of pressure. So there's a lot of talent coming in. Is there awareness at the university level? Is there a course where can, do people get degrees in sustainability? There's a lot of people who want to come into this field what are some of the talent backgrounds of people learning or who might want to be in this field? What would you recommend? How would you describe how to onboard into the career if they want to contribute? What are some of those factors? Cause it's not new, new, but it's going to be globally aware. >> Yeah well there certainly are degrees with focuses on sustainability maybe to look at holistically at the enterprise, but where I think the globe is really going to benefit, we didn't really talk about the software inefficiency. And as we delivered more and more compute over the last few decades, basically the programming languages got more inefficient. So there's at least 35% inefficiency in the software. So being a software engineer, even if you're not an AI engineer. So AI would probably be the highest impact being a software engineer to focus on building new applications that are going to be efficient applications that they're well utilizing the transistor that they're not leaving zombie you know, services running that aren't being utilized. So I actually think-- >> So we got a program in assembly? (all laughing) >> (indistinct), would get really offended. >> Get machine language. I have to throw that in sorry. >> Maybe not that bad. (all laughing) >> That's funny, just a joke. But the question is what's my career path. What's a hot career in this area? Sustainability, AI totally see that. Anything else, any other career opportunities you see or hot jobs or hot areas to work on? >> Yeah, I mean, just really, I think it takes every architect, every engineer to think differently about their design, whether it's the design of a building or the design of a processor or a motherboard we have a whole low carbon architecture, you know, set of actions that are we're underway that will take to the ecosystem. So it could really span from any engineering discipline I think. But it's a mindset with which you approach that customer problem. >> John: That system thinking, yeah. >> Yeah sustainability designed in. Jen thanks so much for coming back in theCube, coming on theCube. It's great to have you. >> Thank you. >> All right. Dave Vellante for John Furrier, we're sustaining theCube. We're winding down day three, HPE Discover 2022. We'll be right back. (upbeat music)

>>The cube presents HPE discover 2022 brought to you by HPE. >>Hi buddy. We're back. This is the Cube's coverage of H P's discover a big discover event this year, 2022 in Las Vegas. We're at the, what used to be called the sands convention center. Now the Venetian Dave Lotte for John furrier per deep Kumar is here. He is the senior vice president and general manager of HPE E's point next services where the rubber meets the road services is where it's at. That's that's where the value is. <laugh> right. >>It's absolutely >>Great to see you again, man. Thanks for coming on. Okay. >>Welcome John. Hopefully y'all are having a good time. >>Yeah, it's very nice to be. It was always great to be face to face. Right? It's nothing like it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, we, we slog through two years of virtual and >>It was packed in keynote. Antonio's keynote was jam packed overflow rooms. Yeah. Um, and it was a big room. It wasn't a small room. It was huge. So that's a sign. Yeah. >>People are here good times. Yeah. People love to be here. Yeah. So >>What's the update with, with point next >>It's, uh, lot's happening. Lot's happening, right? Uh, the transformation is underpinned by point next doing the right thing and just, uh, transforming and helping customers to transform themselves as well with the pandemic it just caught on. Right. Everybody wants to do things faster, digitize things faster. And uh, we really bring the technology and the expertise. I think that's this pretty crucial, >>You know, what, what are the, how do you think about success rates with transformations on the one hand? It, it kept the industry going all industries going on the other hand, I feel like a lot of the transformations were rushed. I call it the forced March to digital. Yeah. Yeah. What failures did you see in that? Forced March and, and how are companies course correcting? Yeah, >>Really good question. <laugh> Dave, um, more than half of the transformations fail, right? So there was a BCG study done over 3000 customers over three years around the world. And, um, 57% of the transformations failed. Right. In the sense when somebody start to transform, they, they set it out a set of goals, scope it. This is what it is. They either didn't meet the goal or they spent more money than they should have, or they overshot the timing. Right. Or all of this about, so it's a staggering number, uh, a large piece of them fail. Yeah. Right. So, um, to answer your second question, Dave, so what are we finding out? Why are they failing and what are they, how are they course-correcting I think there's sort of, you know, we speak to customers all the time. So we get an idea of, you know, what's working and what's not working and there's sort of three things that keep on coming up. >>Right. One is, uh, senior management, CEO, CIO, commitment to the north star. Yeah. Right. Hey, are we tied in, are we doing this? The second thing is the, um, the alignment between it and the business and the functions. Right. If you don't agree on the goal set, if you don't agree on the timeline, uh, then it just, you know, don't work. <laugh> the third is expertise. The people underestimate the expertise. You need the discipline, you need to get stuff done. Right. And so these are the three and none of them are technology related. Yeah. I mean, you're heard they're all people related stuff. >>Right. But di I want to get your thoughts on this is a really important point. I love that commentary because what we're seeing as well is that with COVID now we're kind of third year post COVID, if you will. Yeah. I was just getting out of COVID. It caught a lot of people flatfooted. So people who were on a digital transformation either got stuck and fell down or failed, or they had a tailwind going into it and had momentum. They had alignment and they were filling gaps. They kind of crossed over at the right point and could succeed during the pandemic. But many people failed. Yeah. Because they didn't prepare, they didn't have the technology. They had too many gaps. They had antiquated old stuff. What have you learned? Because this is now ignited the services business because no one wants to have that happen again. Yeah. Can you share your experiences with that? With the customers that are going through that learning pain? What are their core issues? Some projects got doubled down on some got killed. Hey, we don't need that anymore. So what, what are the learnings? Well, tell, share us your perspective, cuz this is important. >>Yeah. So people want to do transformation, right? Absolutely. Because it's a must with COVID faster, quickly you want to get, but they also have to run the business because otherwise you don't have the EPS to support the transformation. Right. So it's, it's transform and perform. So we call it within HP perform while you transform and people who got that balance right. Created that flywheel, John >>Don't run outta gas in other words, translation. >><laugh> exactly. So second thing is, so you have a set of people, you have expertise and COVID you started losing people. Great resignation. You heard everything. Then you are trying to balance your people between, do you put them on transformation or do you put them on operating this stuff? This is where companies then now are realizing, Hey, if I put my best guys on transformation, I need to make sure this operations work well. So people are coming to us and saying, Hey, could you operate this one? Well, right. I mean, today we had somebody on stage, in low medical. Right. They, um, they got a ransomware hit and they had been using us, um, to do all the operations. And when hit hit, we were like switched on. They're like, I mean, on stage they're like you guys were golden, took care of the situation. So if you didn't have any extra help of some expertise, then you are really suffering. Right? >>Yeah. We heard this too. From partners we heard during the pandemic, a lot of the partners stepped up the channel and ISV partners. Yeah. Because they could. Yeah. And that was another key point. Yeah. It all comes together. I love to perform and transform Dave, cuz this is about running the business. Cuz you have cyber security as a serious problem right now. Yeah. That's also part of the transformation. Yeah. Where's the overlap. What are the areas that you're seeing, where you gotta operate and transform? Where's the hot zone. So to speak with customers, is it cyber? Is it, is it, uh, data, data? >>I would say clearly data is number one, right? In anything. Now data, data modernization is the key. Otherwise you are not changing your company the way you do things. So we just announced four real big stuff, addressing, uh, data migration. Right. Um, one of the problems so people have is quality of data. Quality of data is not good. They exist in silos. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, it's not in a platform form where you can really take the data, get the insights and use it for your future. Right. I mean that's a key problem, right? Yeah. So you, you hire a few data scientists. They come in, they're doing, they're spending the time on housekeeping data rather than actually doing data science, >>Data engineering, not just wrangling, it's a lot of engineering going on. >>Absolutely. Okay. >>Absolutely. So that's a well known problem. Uh, but as you said before that it's not really a technology problem. I think it's an organizational issue and part of the problem. And I wonder if you're seeing this within your customer base, is this idea that we're gonna try to put everything into some kind of central repository. Yeah. And then we're gonna create a hyper specialized team. That is the goal between the data that you need <laugh> and the insights, right? Yeah. To get the insights. And we're seeing this dispersion of the expertise, which put, putting more responsibility into the line of business, a new data architecture, new organizational thinking. Are you seeing that? Are there particular industries where that's happening more, more quickly where the context which LA is lacking in the centralized team is actually going out to the lines of business where the data quality will be inherently improved. >>Yeah. I think it's like implementing ERP systems. I mean, people who try to create massive data lakes, I don't think it's going to work. Right. Because it's like, nobody has the time to wait for three years until you have structured data in a particular way. The other thing is some of the data companies were take people like that who came in are no more because things are changing at a rapid pace. So anything if you're doing, that's taking too long to get your act together, the market has moved on. You may not be even in that business. So what people are doing Dave is sort of microservices, they're cutting it into pieces and saying, let me get the best, vast, quick, and make it work. And then creating the fly wheel of changing other things that are priority for their. >>So they're getting tactical with their absolutely >>Getting >>Quick wins. Absolutely >>Inviting >>Off smaller. >>Well that's the data. The data thing is, is a cyber problem too. Cuz data is helping cyber, but machine learning feeds off data. Yes. So if you have gaps or blind spots, machine learning isn't as good. So machine learning is only as good in the eye is only as good as the data. Yeah. It can see. Yeah. >>Yeah. >>So that's means it's gotta be fast available, not siloed. So, but you, so this is a balance. What do I silo and protect for compliance. Yeah. And what can I address quickly? Low latency. >>Yeah. If I may add John, the other thing is because there's so many passwords used in the industry. Right. Um, and AIML is one of those, right? So everybody then businesses pick up an area for AI and ML. They do a little pilot, they do a POC and it works well and they're extremely happy <laugh> and then they try to scale it across the whole enterprise. Yeah. And it's a complete failure because most of the time it doesn't work. Right. >>But your data lake comment actually translates over your point there because you can spend, I had a quote on the last event I went to, the quote was we spend all of our time trying to figure out what the latest open source machine learning is. That's a full-time job. So the data lake is heavy lift. Just understand what's going on there. Tracking machine learning yeah. Is a full time job even and changes. >>Absolutely. So >>The change, what does that mean to the customer? That managed services are gonna be part of it? How do the customers tame that moving train that's happening around these really important areas? >>Yeah. So, um, I think, um, customers do need help. So I think they need to be open to ideas of, okay, what is the expertise we need for where we want to get to? And some may be available inside some, they need to go for help outside. I mean, that's a reality, right? So you need to open your eyes and say, I've got, let me put my best people, maybe on transformation. Let me take the people with some expertise, knowledge on different things, right. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and shortsighted companies. What they do is John, they just automate what's their current. And that's not a transformation in the end, you look back and say, >>That's incremental. >>You didn't achieve anything. Right. Because you haven't transformed your processes. You haven't chained the theme, you just automated what the garbage and garbage out. It's the, the same crap that comes out. So >>How much of the work that point next does is, um, I'll, I'll say, you know, consultative in terms of be being that change agent. Right? Cause again, we back think about data. Yeah. A lot of it is, is thinking about the organization. Yeah. Decentralizing, you know, making that decision, uh, thinking in different terms, around data products, um, having the lines of business, maybe take more responsibility for, and, and those are internal decisions. Yeah. And they have customers have, certainly have a lot of expertise around, but they sometimes need a change agent. Do you play that role? Is that a, a GSI that plays that role? >>Yeah. So, uh, it's a mixed bag. Uh, we play the role in some places and then, uh, some SIS would also play, play that role. Okay. Um, more of the point next is if, if you take a customer engagement advisory, professional services, then actually maintaining their landscape and then manage services, which again, sort of you monitor, but you also provide some info on how to manage it. Right. In those three pieces, Dave, the top piece and the bottom piece are the big pieces. Customers want expertise on the middle piece is getting automated because systems are getting smarter. They are self-healing. And in the middle piece, what people want is knowledge. So say for example, you have an enterprise it's not working well. They want it knowledge up front, tell me where it's broken or what do we need to do? And that's it. Right. Um, and they want to fix it themselves. It's just like consumer. Right. So, um, that's the way it's working. >>So the reason I ask that is we we're having a data discussion here. Yeah. And, and I think that a big role that you can play in the data transformation is to provide self-service infrastructure. Yes. Uh, right where the, the technical pieces or an operational detail. Absolutely. Okay. And then the, the second is that you just touched on it is, is, is automated, automated governance and security. So that when I share data, I know that it's going to the right place. That individual has the proper access to it. So those are two sort of white spaces I think. And a lot of organizations where they need help big >>Wide spaces >>Actually. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. And that, that middle please is a complete cloud experience. Mm-hmm <affirmative> right. Everything is going to be digitalized. Everything's going to be automated. And um, so you know, people can use it any way they want, >>Do you see hybrid as a steady state? I mean, know, we gotta wrap up. We don't a lot of time left. Yeah. The real quick hybrid we've been saying here in the cube, it's it's gonna be a steady state for a long, long >>Time. Absolutely. Absolutely. And it would be, you know, OnPrem off Preem multi-cloud but it's going to be hybrid world >><laugh> all right. Hybrid world. >>Thank you so much. Hybrid >>Cube cube hybrid cube >>Was great to have you on you're so articulate and, and it's just wonderful to see you. Thanks. Thanks. >>Thank you. Thanks Dave. >>Thank you, John. And thank you for watching John furry, Dave Valante, we'll be back with the cubes coverage of HPE. Discover 2022 in Las Vegas. Right after this short break we're live.

>>from around the globe. It's the >>Cube with digital >>coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 sponsored by Intel, >>AWS and >>our community partners. >>Welcome back to the cubes ongoing coverage of this year's AWS reinvent. You know, normally we'd be in the middle of the San Sands Convention Center. We have two sets and 50,000 of our closest friends. We'd be deking out on cloud. Seems like a long time ago, but the show must go on. And it does. Joe Duffy is here. He's the co founder and CEO of Gloomy, and Justin Fits you is the vice president engineering for Cloud Engineering for snowflake. Welcome, gentlemen. Good to see you. >>It's good to be here, >>Joe. I love what you guys are doing. You know, leading your customers to the cloud and really attacking that I t labor problem that we've dealt with for years and years by playing a role in transforming what I would say is I t ops into cloud ups with programmable infra infrastructure practices. So take >>a >>moment to tell us. Why did you and your co founder start the company how you got it off the ground? People are always interested in how you got it funded. You got a couple of Seattle VCs, Madrona and Tola involved. Any a just got involved. So congrats on that. What's the story of your company? >>Yeah. So my background and my co founder Eric's background. You know, we spent multiple decades at Microsoft just really obsessing over developer platforms and productivity and trying to make you know developers lives as as as as productive as possible. You know, help them harness the power of software >>toe create, >>you know, innovative new applications and really spent time on technologies like Visual Studio and Ahmed. And and, you know, it really struck us that the cloud is changing everything about how we develop software. And yet from our perspective, coming from developer landed had almost changed nothing. You know, most of our customers were still, you know, developing software like they did 15 years ago, where it was a typical enter your application, they'd kind of write the code and then go to their I t team and say, Hey, we need to run this somewhere. Can you provisioned a few virtual machines? Can you prevision You know, maybe a database or two and and And so And then we went and talked Thio, you know, infrastructure teams and found out Hey, you know, folks were really toiling away with tools that air a pale in comparison when it comes to the productivity that we we were accustomed Thio on the developer side. And then frequently we heard from leaders that there were silos between the organizations. They couldn't build things quickly enough. They couldn't move quickly enough in cloud Native and the new public cloud capabilities just really were pushed pushing on that, really, you know. But the most innovative companies we kept hearing were the ones who figured this out, who really figured out how to move faster in the cloud. Companies like Snowflake really are leveraging the cloud toe transform entire businesses. You look at uber lyft Airbnb, these companies that really harnessed the cloud toe not just from a technical productivity standpoint, but really transform the business. Eh? So that was the opportunity that we saw Kalemie was Let's take a step back. We call this cloud engineering. Let's imagine a world where every developers, a cloud developer and infrastructure teams are enabling that new way of building. >>Great. So you mentioned cloud engineering. Now, Justin, you've done a bit a bit of cloud engineering yourself in your day. You know, the Cube has been following Snowflake very closely since it launched really mid last decade. And we've we've covered your novel, architectural approach and your cloud only mantra. Talk about that. And have there been any changes in how you're thinking about cloud adoption and how that's as that's increased and you've seen new use cases emerged. >>Yeah, so I think, you know, obviously Snowflake was was built on the foundation of cloud first, and in fact, cloud Onley are only platform and only infrastructure is is based on the cloud. But, you know, for us, it was absolutely key on. How do you develop a platform and a product that's completely elastic? Lee, scalable on drily, really allows for kind of the paper use and paper consumption model. We didn't really it would be very difficult for us to offer this and Thio offer a product in this way. On def, you start to think about kind of from a cloud engineering perspective. Um, we don't have the typical network engineers. A typical data center engineers that you that you might have seen previously. Instead, we're shifting our model in our what we do include engineering away from kind of an operations model or even devotes model towards the software engineering model. E. I think that's the That's the big shift to cloud engineering is that we're looking to hire and we're building a team of software engineers to build systems and platforms and and tooling Thio have the system self managed as much as possible, and it changes to our infrastructure that we look at any changes in our platform are all through, commits and and deployed via pipelines, as opposed to having Operator's log on and make these changes. And so that's the shift that I think we're seeing. And that's to kind of match the overall stuff like Model of Cloud, first and on and where the product is like just going. >>Like you said in cloud only, Justin, you use Pollux me in your own engineering and also in your product externally. Is that correct? And how so? >>Yeah, we actually use it in, specifically and, um, in our platform, in order to kind of deployed to manage and, uh, just operate a kind of our overall cloud infrastructure. We specifically use it more focused on the good days and and continue ization side of things. But that use cases kind of rapidly expanding across the organization. >>So I'm curious of what do you guys we're seeing in the market place? Joe, you know, thinking about cloud broadly, What's the impact that you're seeing on businesses? Who are the big players that you see out there? Maybe you could talk about some of the differentiation that you've noticed. >>Yeah, I think this notion of plot engineering, you know, even 3.5 years ago when we got started was in its infancy. You know, we definitely saw that. Hey, you know, the world is moving and shifting left, you know, it's just was saying and really, people are looking for new ways to empower developers, but that empowerment has to come with guard rails, right? And so what we're seeing is oftentimes, teams are now modernizing their entire platform infrastructure platform, and they're looking to technologies like kubernetes to do that. But increasingly, you know, aws, Azure gp. You know, when we started, um, there weren't any great managed kubernetes clusters. And now today, fast forward. You know Onley 3.5 years and and many of our customers are using flew me to help them get up and running with the chaos in AWS, for example, you look at a lot of folks transforming on Prem as well again many times, adopting kubernetes is sort of a if they intend to stay on Prem. You know, Thio, at least modernize their approach to application infrastructure delivery. That's where Pollux me really can help. It could be a bridge. Thio hate from on Prem to the public cloud. There's certainly a lot of folks doing great work in the space, you know, I think VM Ware has really kind of emerged as sort of vanguard thought leader in this in this space, especially with, you know, hep dio and now kind of pivotal joining the story. We see other, you know, great companies like hash in court, for we're doing good work in this space. Um, certainly we integrate with a lot of their technologies on you. Combine those with the public cloud providers. There's also a lot of just smaller startups in the space which you know, strikes in my heart. I love I love supporting the startup ecosystem. You know, whether that's for cell or net lif I or server list. You know, really trying to help developers harness more of the cloud. I think that's an emerging trend that we're gonna see accelerating in the coming years. >>Yeah. Thank you. You've mentioned a number of interesting emerging tools companies in the ecosystem. I mean, Justin talked about kubernetes. Are there other tooling that you're using that that might be, you know, some of your customers might like toe to know about. >>Yeah, I think so. So one thing I wanted to actually follow up with what Joe said here is is around kind of the multi cloud nature of what we do is is the tools, like gloomy are critical for us to be able to abstract away specific cloud provider AP ice and such and so given Snowflake operates on all three major public clouds and offers a seamless experience amongst all three of them. We have to have something that abstracts some of that complexity and some of those technical details away. Andi, that's why I kind of blew me, made sense in in this case and has helped us kind of achieved that cloud neutrality piece. Um, in terms of other tools that that you're thinking that we're talking about, I think Bellamy is doing a great job kind of on some of these on some of the kind of that interaction and infrastructure and sensation. But we're looking for tooling to kind of look for the overall workflow automation piece on orchestration. So what sits on top of say, you're using intervals using terra form? You may be using Polonia's well, but what kind of orchestrates all these pieces together? Onda, How do you kind of build workflow automation? And I think there's a lot of companies and technology providers that air starting up in this area to kind of stitch all these pieces together so that you kind of have a seamless kind of work flow across across your infrastructure. >>Got it. So, Joe, I'm kind of curious you talked a little bit about your background at Microsoft, and you're even a TMC where you're helping, you know, people manage Luns. It was a sort of skill set that is not in high demand today. Early. Shouldn't be people really need to transform? I've said that a lot in the queue, but But, you know, maybe talk a little bit about the experiences that you've had in the past that informed the direction that Pollux me is taking and where you see it going specifically. I mean, I've been talking a lot about the next decade of cloud is not gonna be the same as the last decade of the cloud. How did you How do you see it? >>Yeah, I think I recognize a clear trend, you know, in with cloud computing. Uh, you know, back I can't remember 13 years ago, maybe 15 years ago, When, when When the Azure project started. You know Dave Cutler, who actually founded the anti project at Microsoft, Actually, was was one of the first engineers that started Azure. And he called it a cloud operating system. And, you know, I think that vision of hey, the cloud is the new operating system is something that we're still just chipping away at. And that was that was a clear trend, you know, having seen these transformations in the past, you know the shift from, you know, dos to windows from windows to mobile Thio, client server thio now the cloud every step of the way. We always transform the way we build applications. And I think where we're at now is horse, really in the midst of a transition that I think we'll look back. You never know when it's happening right? But you can always look back in hindsight and see that it did happen. And I think the trend that we're going through now with service meshes and just, you know, micro services and service list is really we're building distributed applications. These clouds made of applications, they're distributed applications. And that was the trend that I, I recognized, also recognizes another trend, which is, you know, we spent 30 years building great tools. You know, I d s test frameworks sharing and reuse package managers. We figured out static analysis and how to fix security problems in this in in programming languages that we've got today. Let's not go rebuild all that. Let's leverage that, and and so that's what Eric and I said they want, you know, Let's stand on the shoulders of giants. Let's leverage all this good work that has come before us. Let's just apply that to the infrastructure domain and really try toe smooth things out. Give us a new sort of level playing field to build on. From here is we go forward and I'm excited that Parliament gives us that foundation that we can now build on top of >>Great and Justin, of course, were covered. Aws reinvent you guys. It was kind of your your first platform. It's your largest, the largest component of your business. And I have been saying, Ah lot that, you know the early days of cloud was about infrastructure last 32 throw in some database. But really, there's a new workload that's emerging. And you guys are at the heart of that where people are putting governed data giving access to that data, making it secure, uh, sharing that data across an ecosystem so that new workload is really driving new innovation. I wonder how you see that what you see the next half a decade or decades looking like in terms of innovation? >>Yeah, I think I think it za valid point, which is, um, it's less about infrastructure and more about the services that you're providing with that infrastructure. And what what value are you able to add and So I think that's it, Snowflake. The thing that we're really focused on, which is abstract away, all these tunes and all these knobs and such, and the how much remember you have on a specific and a piece of infrastructure or describes or anything like that. So what's the business value? And how can we present that business value in a uniform way, regardless of kind of the underlying service provider on baby to a different class of business users, someone who wants a low data and just two analysts against that they really don't want to understand what's happening underneath. And I think that's that's where this club engineering piece comes in. Um, and what my team is doing is really focused on How do we abstract away that kind of lower level infrastructure and scalability pieces and allow the application developers to develop this application that is providing business value in a transparent and seamless way and in elastic way such that we can scale up and down we can. We have the ability, obviously, to replicate both within regions and clouds, but also across different clouds. So from a business resiliency and and up time point of view. That's that's something that's been really important. Um, and I think also how do we security is? Becoming is obviously a huge, huge importance, given the classifications type of day that people are putting within our platform. So how are we able Thio ensure that there is a pipeline where developers have reviews and commits of any kind of changes going into the system and their arm's length away, and could be fully audited for various clients and regular regulatory needs? And that's something that kind of this suffer engineering cloud engineering concept has really helped develop and allowed us Thio obviously be successful with various different types of industries. >>Joe, we're almost out of time. I wonder if you could bring us home. I mean, some of the things Justin was talking about I mean, I definitely see a lot of potential disruption coming from the world of developers. Uh, he was talking. He was talking about consumption models different than many of the SAS pricing models. And how do you How do you see it? Developers air kind of the really the new source of innovation. Your final thoughts. >>Yeah. I think we're democratizing access to the cloud for everybody. I think you know it's not just about developers, but it's It's really all engineers of all backgrounds, its developers, its infrastructure engineers, its operations engineers, its security engineers. You know, Justin's mentioning compliance and security. These air really critical elements of how we deliver software into the cloud. So I think you know what you're going to see is you're gonna see a lot of new, compelling experiences built thanks to cloud capabilities. You know, the fact that you've got a I and M l and all these infinitely scalable data services like snowflake and, you know, just an arm's length away that you can use as building blocks in your applications. You know, application developers love that. You know, if we can just empower them to run fast, they will run fast, and we'll build great applications. And infrastructure teams and security engineers will be central to enabling that that new future. I think you also see that you know infrastructure and cloud services will become accessible to an entirely new audience. You know, kids graduating from college, they understand Java script. They understand python now they can really just harness the cloud to build amazing new experiences. So I think we're still, you know, still early days on the transition to the cloud. I know where many years on the journey, but we've got many, many years, you know, in our future. And it's very exciting. >>Well, thank you, guys, Joe and Justin. I really appreciate it. Congratulations on your respective success. I know is Joe said you got a lot more work to do, but I really appreciate you coming on the Cube. >>Awesome. Thank you. You're >>welcome. All right, so we're here covering reinvent 2020. The virtual edition. Keep it right there for more great content. Were unpacking the cloud and looking to the future. You're watching the cube?

>> Announcer: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a CUBE Conversation. >> Hey, welcome back everybody, Jeff Frick here with theCUBE, we're in our Palo Alto studio today, the COVID thing is continuing to go, and one of the huge impacts, right, is obviously in the conference business, our world. Those things have all been canceled or made virtual, and everyone's still trying to figure out, what does a virtual event look like, what are the characteristics of it, and we're really excited to have one of our favorite CUBE alumni, guest host extraordinaire, Keith Townsend. You know him as the CTO advisor joining us, Keith jumped in with both feet, right when this thing went down, and said "I'm going to have my own CTO Advisor "virtual conference," so first off, Keith, I miss you, great to see you, we haven't run into each other at the Sands in an awfully long time, so great to see you, how are you doing? >> Good to see you, if it's only virtual, good to see you too, Jeff. >> So tell us about your decision to jump in with both feet, and go ahead and test the waters on this virtual conference concept. >> So I talked about this a little bit on a random, just a YouTube update, but roughly 30, 35% of my revenue comes from in-person events. And plus my brand, The CTO Advisor, is tied to people seeing me on theCUBE, seeing me at the shows, creating the content, kind of on the ground, guerrilla style, kind of like how John started out early on. So we needed a practical solution for most things, one, we feed off the energy of the community, so we need to be on the ground as much as possible, so that we can create content and get you guys the stories and the data that you need to make purchasing decisions, and two, we needed the practical problem of solving our own revenue problems, so we jumped in, head in, to say "Let's do a virtual event." I don't know if I would've done it if I wasn't as naive as I was back then, but we jumped in. >> So before we jump into the processes, make sure, give us a full-on plug, when is it, where should people go, registration I assume is still open, want to just get that out there for the folks. >> So even if you see this after registration closes, quote unquote closes, it's April 21st, >> 10: 30 AM central to 3:30 PM central, that's US time. You can register at CTOAdvisorVirtualConference.com. >> Excellent, so let's talk about some of the interesting things about virtual. One of the things as you said in a physical event, you've got people, you've got time and space and geography that we all come together in that space, and there's a lot of advantages to everybody being at the same place at the same time. A virtual event, almost by definition, is now you've broken up the segments of content capture, if you will, and creation, which can or cannot be on that date. The actual display, or the publishing of that content, if you will, and then the consumption of that content, which may or may not happen on the 21st. How have you worked with this expanded palette, if you will, to be able to work in an asynchronous world, and how are you finding it in terms of actually day to day execution? >> So you guys have done plenty of remote content at this point. When you're in theCUBE studio, you have commercial internet, it's fairly reliable when you're on premises, maybe a little bit less reliable from the sense that it's conference-centered, but it's still enterprise class internet access, so you can do real-time video on theCUBE fine. We can go to Cube.tv, Cube.net, and see what you guys are doing real-time, and it's pretty much without blip. In the virtual conference world, what we're dealing with where I'm coming in, remote to you, while my video and audio looks fine now, it may blip. So we embrace two things. We embrace the fact that this is a virtual event, so in a background, you'll see that we're in Keith Townsend's basement, the other thing that you'll see is that we won't produce live content, because there's not much value in it being live, if I can't interact with you. One of the great things about theCUBE, is that it's live, but there's this element that people are on the ground, they're watching it live, they're interacting with it live, we're tweeting about it, so how do you reproduce, if not that exact feeling of it being live and you're being part of it, but the conversation around the content, and that's what we focused on, creating high quality video content, that you can consume, kind of as a watch party, so on Twitter, in the platform that we're using, we're having conversations real-time, so that you can enjoy the community, and the speakers who are presenting, you can interact with them because they're not presenting real-time, they're in the chat room, they're on Twitter, they're running as their session is running, and they're able to interact with you, so we've embraced the medium, and then after the fact of course we can do all kinds of things to run asynchronous content after the fact, 'cause the majority of people will watch it after the video's done. >> All right, and I'm just curious, how many sessions are you going to have, approximately? >> So we have I think 21 sessions, in a five hour period, so we're running three separate tracks, two super techy, geeky tracks, then a sponsored track is kind of by itself, and we're not expecting everyone to consume it all at one time. >> Right, you know it's just so interesting to me, talking about your tracks. If you were to go rent a venue, that had the capacity to run 21 tracks over five hours, it'd be a pretty decent-sized venue, it'd be expensive, and then you would have to pick your sessions and your tracks based on the limitations of the budget that you had and the window that you had of rooms that you could put these people in, and who could do it now, when, there, the other thing, and so it's really interesting that now this opens up the amount of sessions, is really a function of what you can manage, or what the community can kind of self-organize, you're not really limited by how many rooms are in the Sands Convention Center, and the other thing that you brought up, which I think people completely miss is that if the content is recorded in advance and puts in the can, to your point, the presenter can actually participate in the conversation while the session is happening, which they can't do in a physical event, because they're actually presenting, so, we had a guy in the other day, Ben Nelson, he talked about a car is not a mechanical horse, it's not the same, digital's not the same as physical, and there are some things that aren't as cool, but there's a whole lot of things that you can do in the digital space that you can't do in the physical space. >> Yeah, a lot of my presenters were kind of put off by the idea of, "Wait, hold on, I'm not going to present live? "How will I interact with webinars now?" And I think this is the other end of the spectrum, Jeff, I think you guys have probably found this too, it's not a in-person event, and it's also not a webinar, so don't treat it as a webinar. You don't have to have these canned, phony questions that some people have behind the scenes, it is a real, authentic thing. Oddly enough, I discovered this as part of helping my church put on their worship service. I was watching the service, I'll look off the screen a little bit to the left, I was watching the service, and the minister's delivering his sermon, and in the Zoom meeting, there he is, playing with his little two year old daughter, while he's giving the talk, and I just opened chat at him, and next thing I know there's an explosion of conversation around just life and the topic at hand, so it is a really unique experience. >> Yeah, I think that's a really important point, it's not only what is a digital event, but what is it not, and it can't be a webinar, and when we were first going through this kind of shake-up, and we were really trying to identify some of those things, and we specifically did not want a digital event to be a webinar, 'cause what's a webinar, it's generally a one way communication of information for the vast majority of the session that you're sitting there, and they only open it up to Q&A at the very end, and it's only a moderated Q&A that very few people get a chance to get their question in, and you don't know how they're picking, and it only goes to the hosts, so, really having an open, live engagement around an engaged group of people, with a piece of content as kind of the coalescing of those people, really, it's not a webinar, it's a very different kind of experience, and sounds like you're really embracing that. >> Yeah, it'll never replace a live event, live has, again we talked about the energy, the, people are like "Do you really "want to smell the Sands, Keith?" You know what, it's all part of the energy, it's instant reminders to "Oh, I remember when I interviewed Pat Gelsinger here," and you have these instant cues that we as humans love, we don't get that, but I think it is something that's going to be with us to stay and it'll augment, I'd love to hear how you guys are thinking about how being able to have this capability will augment theCUBE once we return to physical events. >> Yeah, I mean I think this behavior that we're now been forced to engage in, in terms of increased working from home, and kind of increased use of videoconferencing, and that is a different communication mode, I think those behaviors are going to stick quite a bit, actually, I think if you look at what a conference is, there's a couple different tracks, as you said, there's the expression going around, kind of the rally moment, right, the keynote, we want, we have a strong message, the CEO wants to get something out, and I think that's of tremendous value, but then you look at all the breakout sessions and the information flow and the community engagement, those quite frankly can be done online much more efficiently and with much less cost, so will the new conference be kind of this, the celebration and basically a customer appreciation event, they want to have a party, but really that, I don't think it will be quite the information flow, 'cause why should product group A wait until the conference date, if they're ready to release their information, and wait for product group B or C or D, so this kind of forced aggregation of the communication into this very small window of three days in Vegas, I don't think it makes any sense, you know, it's Waterfall versus DevOps, and if this group's got stuff and they're ready to go, again, why hold the information back, it really doesn't make sense, and decouple the customer celebration, the rally moment, if you will, and the education, they don't necessarily have to be this contiguous big unit for three days in Vegas. >> Yeah, I'm looking forward to first quarter 2021, usually January, February, first half of March, really slow news channel product teams release stuff and they really want some big stage to release it, I think this will really make the dissemination of information coming from product teams super interesting as folks like theCUBE, The CTO Advisor, we're able to put on independent events virtually that have a sense of gravitas to it, that our partners will come and embrace. >> Yeah, the other thing, Keith, and I wonder, as you've been collecting your content for your show next week is that, the pressure on the quality of the content has escalated dramatically, right? If you're stuck in a huge conference hall, surrounded by 10,000 people, in the middle of a keynote that's not that exciting, it's kind of hard to get up and walk out. But if you're sitting at your desk with the entire world an alt-tab away, not to mention pesky things like email and Slack and everything else that we have as a distraction, it's really going to come in on the content provider and the engaged community to deliver, or else you're going to lose the audience, and I think it's going to be really interesting, people that overly have relied on the 100 foot video screen and the electronic violin music in the morning, and some of these tips and tricks, aren't going to carry the weight, because if it's just you sitting in front of a screen and you got to deliver the message, it's got to be crisp, it's got to be powerful, and it's got to be engaging, or people are just going to step away. >> And more importantly, how do you bring people back? So, you know how, when I take a break at a conference, I'm kind of captured. Eventually I'm going to walk back to the conference center, I might go back out to take a call, et cetera, but getting people to come back, even if the content has been awesome and engaging and great, how do you get 'em to come back, they don't have to come back that day, or even real time, but they have to come back to the portal, so we're working on kind of the next 30 days after the event, this is the thing that's really funny about putting on a virtual event, there's kind of the exhale after the day of the event, a virtual event, you know what, you've got a third of your audience that first day, a third of the audience the next week, and then the rest of the audience creeps in over the next three or four weeks, and how do you engage them, how do you get them to come back, and ultimately consume your content and your message? It's something that I haven't, I don't know if I've cracked the formula for it yet, but it is going to be a very interesting challenge. >> Yeah, but I think we have, right, in the way, how do you consume video today, how do you find information, right, you go to YouTube or to Google and you search, right, and right now the biggest phenom in pop media is the Tiger King, right, so when do people watch the Tiger King, how do they hear about the Tiger King, when do they actually sit down and watch it, has nothing to do with when you watch it unless we decide to trade messages, I say "Hey, Keith, have you seen the new episode?" So when you look at consumption patterns, to me it's really interesting, it's kind of bifurcated, you either binge watch, and just really get into something that you're into, and you just go go go for hours and hours and hours, or you're getting snippets, you're getting little quick hits, quick hits, quick hits, and I think it's this kind of ugly middle, where you don't have enough content or richness or engagement to have people hang, but you're a little bit longer than a quick hit just to get your message out, and I think it's really going to kind of bifurcate, and the beauty of digital is you can consume it in lots of different ways, and piece parts, and you don't have to necessarily kind of sit through kind of a straight row consumption as a captive audience, I think the opportunity's really really good, if the content is up to snuff, properly tagged, search terms, all those types of things of course as well. >> So yeah, John talks about the value of community a lot, and one of our co-hosts on theCUBE, and also a CUBE alum is Corey Quinn, and he does a really great job of this with curating content after it's been consumed live. He'll to his audience say "You know what, I'm going to live tweet this session "from three months ago," and that refreshes the conversation, it's not about when the content was created, it's about the conversation, as long as it's relevant, and finding mediums to help amplify that message. >> Yeah, I think it's just a great opportunity, you know, we used to do some work with Live Nation in another lifetime, right, and Live Nation around concerts, they had that particular event when you go to the show, and a lot of their efforts on the marketing side were what they call extending the glow, right, extending the glow after, and also kind of building the excitement before, and moving that window of that event to more than just the night that the show played, and I think we've got the same opportunity here, that's why again if you get good quality content, it's not speeds and feeds, but it's evergreen themes that have legs, you can go back to that well and you can stir that thing up, and you can get it back out there again, and then again hopefully people stumble upon it, whether it's via community or whatever. The other thing I think that's really interesting is you talked about community, and you talked about QuinnyPig, @QuinnyPig I think is his Twitter handle, is this whole idea of collaboration, and I think that's another thing that we can take from the internet, I know you do a lot of that, so working with other influencers if you will, or other people in the communities, and introducing each other's community to one another, I think it's a really big part of what makes a lot of the big YouTubers famous is that they do things together and they kind of cross-pollinate their communities, and if there's some overlap there then they both have kind of a win-win, and again I think in digital, where you don't have destruction, you don't have single use, you can use stuff more than once, it really opens up this opportunity for much more win-win, let's work together, and build community together, cross leverage, versus it's either yours or mine, and it's really more of a competitive thing. >> And I've been collaborating a lot with some of my European peers, and you bring up a really interesting concept. Our friends at VMware's going to be putting on VMworld in the next few months, and they usually had a US conference and a European conference, were both pretty sizable conferences. It's basically going to run concurrently as one conference. So if it's going to run as one conference, why do I have to limit the live experience to the US timezone? Why can't I cater this, and why is it just a fixed hour, I don't know if it will be, but it shouldn't just be a fixed hour event, it's going to be a all-out hour event that's going to happen across Asia, Europe, and the US, and tailoring the content to each continent and time zone, and cross-pollinating, so that content that I would not have typically have gotten at the US event, or in the Europe event, I can now get that experience and cross-cultural flavor as a natural part of digital, so there's a lot of opportunity, there's a lot to miss about in-person events, but I think there's opportunities that are just massively untapped. >> Yeah, yeah, and I'm just going to get one more concept, which I don't think is getting enough action, get your take on it, but if you think of the value to the company, let's just stick with VMware for a minute, we're great fans of Pat and Sanjay, there is a information transfer when Pat gets up and does his keynote as from one to many tens of thousands, and there's value there, and again we talked about this rallying moment, but think of turning that on its head, which is really what digital provides, now there's an opportunity for Pat and Sanjay and the entire VMware senior team and junior team and product managers to now flip that information flow. So if you think of the user experience from the attendees' point of view, is it better for Sanjay to talk to 10,000 people in an audience, or would Sanjay rather hear from 10,000 people, and have that flow of information going back in? So if you think of it as a community event versus a one way communication of here's our exciting news, I think the value to the sponsor goes up dramatically, 'cause there's so much institutional knowledge and tribal knowledge and experience within all those people that are just sitting passively listening to that keynote. If this is a way to better suck that information back into the company, I don't think they'll ever go back to the other way it was. >> Yeah, two points, two data points on that. One, again, from the worship side of the house, at our Easter service, our church enabled every member who cared to to kind of do a five, eight second "Hey, this is the Townsend family, "happy Easter," and then 15 minutes before the live church service started, they just ran a video of family after family after family that I recognize, saying "Hi, happy Easter," so you have that moment, and how do you capture that online? VMware's social media team already does this well, they amplify end user content, there was a guy that did a video on how to install VMware Cloud Foundation in three hours, went viral. You have these opportunities, again, to hear from sources and have conversations that's really not practical from a typical conference perspective. I think I heard it best the other day, one of my attendees and presenters said "You know what, Keith, the virtual conference "is such a democratizing event because "it enables me, whether I could not afford "to go to a conference before, "or I couldn't travel, or whatever reasons "I could not attend a conference before," the virtual conference gives opportunities for collaborations that could not have taken place otherwise. >> Yeah, it's great, so again, Keith, thank you for spending a few minutes with us and sharing your thoughts, and again, for everybody, April 21st 2020, next week, >> 10: 30 AM central time, join the CTO virtual conference. Keith, always great to catch up, man. >> You too, Jeff, thanks a lot. >> All right, take care. He's Keith, I'm Jeff, you're watching theCUBE, thanks for watching, I'll see you next time. (calm music)

>>LA from Las Vegas. It's the cube covering AWS reinvent 2019 brought to you by Amazon web services and along with its ecosystem partners. >>Welcome back to Vegas, Lisa Martin with John farrier. We are live at AWS reinvent in the expo hall at the sands convention center. There's tons of people in here. You could probably hear some of the background AWS expecting 65,000 or so folks. John, how many of those 65,000 and have you talked to in the last two days? >>Well, I can hear all the conversations happening at once. It's about hybrid cloud, IOT edge data, machine learning. my head's going to come. >>I was going to say lots of cool stuff. John and I are pleased to be joined by Greg Coralville, the VP of products and strategy for Blackberry Q. Next group. Welcome to the program >>to be here with 65,000 of our closest friends. >>His friends. Exactly. So Blackberry, cute X. What's it all about? >>What's it all about? Well, we do software. We do embedded software for mission critical systems at this event, at the AWS reinvent over showing a software and a really cool car, a karma, and we're connecting it to the AWS IOT backend services and showing some really, really cool use cases. Some of which are near term summer, which are a bit longer term are pretty exciting. Take a quick minute to describe Kunis. Is background acquired by Blackberry system history legacy? Exactly. Just take a quick minute to explain that. So we were founded in 1980 and then developing software for mission critical devices and medical, industrial. And then we started developing software for automotive in 1998 so we've been in automotive for about 20 years and developing originally an infotainment and then digital instrument clusters, telematic systems, gateways, safety systems, acoustics systems, pretty much becoming the software platform in the car because in the car, the car, the software is to be reliable, safe, secure. >>So we're trusted to deliver that. In automotive, we were acquired by Blackberry in 2010 and we're bringing the best of Blackberry and automotive and all of our other markets. So Lisa and I always talk about IOT is RPA automation. All this stuff's going on. But one of the things that comes up is we're trying to grok what's the software development environment in the cloud, in the car, and a Amazon one by having great API APIs. Yep. That was one of their core design principles. Is there a similar design principle from a car standpoint? Because if I'm an app developer, I just love, I have my mobile app sit on the car, right? But I don't want to have to become an expert on all the nuances of is there a connector? So is there going to be multiple platforms? What's the, what's the principle? Can you explain that a great question and great observation. >>So cars traditionally have been proprietary, pretty much closed systems and started open up with CarPlay and Android auto or all of a sudden you saw your mobile device being able to communicate with the car and now I could run Android apps, I could run iOS apps and started to open it up a bit. And now what you've seen is cars are becoming more connected, they're becoming more automated, eventually autonomous. Um, they're definitely, and what you're seeing in the car is in order for that car to really evolve and to offer connected services and shared mobility and the electrification that's occurring, the automotive industry is going through a disruption. We've all heard that and it really is true. So to the point where the electronics in the car, the networks in the car, the software in the car, it's getting completely redesigned and you're seeing a lot more high end processors. >>You're seeing safety critical systems, which have always been in cars, but now you're seeing a lot more complexity. And that speaks to exactly what we do. So where that car's going, if you think about it, is moving to more of a software platform. You have applications and mobile devices. Why? Because you've got Android and you've got iOS. That car is moving to that sort of a common platform where with the help of AWS connected services, the cubix Blackberry Punic software platform in the car, all of a sudden that'll open the door to that kind of environment to applications, to connected services. And that's exactly where it's going. So connectivities, it's here and it's going to be predominant through a pretty much all the vehicles coming off the line in the coming years. So you're going to see the connectivity and now we can bring the services and the apps to that vehicle. But at the same time you got to keep it safe, got to keep it secure. Gotta keep it reliable. You know, it's the classic mobile device, bingo literal device on wheels, right of two ton mobile device on wheels. >>Doc disruption sounds really cool and it's consumers. We just had this expectation that we can have whatever I want, the whole experience I want. And obviously as everything evolves, we want it to be safer and safer. And as there's laws and regulations that govern, Hey, you're going to get hefty fines if you're seeing with this device and you're driving. But disruption is really challenging, right? We talked, we got some great examples yesterday on stage with Andy Jassy of Goldman Sachs, right? How many years old are they and how they have leveraged disruption to revolutionize their consumer business or healthcare revolutionizing. I'd love to get your perspective on what are some of the automakers that are bleeding edge going, we get it. We want to work with you guys so that they understand that this the, you know, the, the mobile devices, the connected device on wheels is going to be transformative for their business. >>Good point. So first of all, every automaker we work with and we work, we work with almost 50 auto makers and we're over a hundred. We're in over 150 million vehicles and multiple systems in the cars. They're all putting safety first. That's never really changed. But that remains primary, primary objective. And to your point is how do you maintain that safety net reliability while at the same time opening the door to connectivity, making sure that vehicle is secure and resilient to attacks and whatnot. And you've seen some of those attacks in the past. And the industry is learning. Um, but that's, that's exactly what, that's what speaks to us and what we do. Same thing with AWS. If you think about what we do, we're plumbers. We, we build plumbing in the car, AWL splits, plumbing in the cloud. And I've had that call, those conversations with AWS and they're like, yeah, we're plumbers. >>And I said, so are we, we're going to get along great. But to your point, we have to keep our eye on security. Our definitely our eye on privacy and safety. And that's exactly what we do. As much as we all want the consumer apps and the connected experience at the same time, we can't compromise on that. So the good thing in automotive is there's a automotive safety standards, ISO two, six, two, six, two and whatnot, which we've certified our products to and we're going to keep doing that and keep delivering that software in the car. But that's awesome for 0.2 ton mobile device on wheels. So we got to always be aware of that. Great opportunity. People want more conduct and safety too. And that's a huge thing. Security and safety. I want to get to that in a second, but I got to ask you, um, what is the relationship that you guys have with Amazon? >>Could you explain that? And what are you guys doing at reinvent this year? Is your leg a presentation demo? Take a minute to explain the relationship between queen Nixon and Amazon web services and what you're showing here. Well, we're in the connected home exhibit. In fact, we're in the quote unquote garage where we've got a vehicle, a beautiful karma Rivero GT. And I was told it's the first time there's actually a car at reinvent. So that was pretty cool. And it's a cool car if you get a chance, come on over. And what we've done is we've taken the karma vehicle and we've actually connected it to AWS IOT. So if you think about what we do, we do software in the car, as I was saying earlier. And then we worked with the Amazon team, with the AWS team to say, okay, what can we do? So one of the things we're doing is we're doing battery monitoring and prediction in terms of the life of the battery. >>That's one of the things that we're doing. The other thing we're doing is personalized cockpit, which is, which is pretty exciting. And, and the last thing we're doing is kind of a business to business demonstration, um, where it's data orchestrations. If you think about the vehicle, there's a lot of sensors on the vehicle, a lot of information available on the vehicle. And what we're doing with AWS is pulling information from the vehicle, putting it in the cloud. And then we've got a few examples that we're using. So one of them is an application for an auto detailing company where they might want, you might want to have your vehicle detailed where we can make the position of your vehicle available, GPS, the VIN number. So the identify the identification of the vehicle. Um, and then you could actually contract with that expert detailings what we called them to come to your vehicle, clean the vehicle, detail your vehicle within a finite period of time securely. >>And then you'll get notified when it's done and whatnot. We're doing facial recognition in the vehicle and we also put some ML in machine learning in the car. We're actually showing gesture recognition where I can fold the mirrors with a, with a peace sign or victory signs. I could have the mirrors fold in. Uh, I can, I can interact with the infotainment system. I can personalize the music and whatnot. So really personalizing the cockpit. But all through the power of AWS. Sorry, what are we going to have to the car flying cars? Come on Jetsons flyers. I love this coming. Maybe not the flying carpet. Wow. Okay. Flying cars. Fine. I mean, I always say anything else that's in star Trek or star Wars will be invented. So I'm respecting some flying vehicles. All fun aside. Yeah. Now the serious conversation is safety and security. >>Worst case scenario, my car is hacked. Take over. This is a fear. Again, it's the worst. It's a doom season here. Those stories are straight. All IOT device. It's a car. How do you guys view the security posture? Um, good question. This is concerned. It might be on people's mind. Yeah. And that's what really speaks to where our company has been for almost four decades now. You know, when people would ask me, Hey, where would I find Punic software? Blackberry Punic software, I'd say almost everywhere, but the desktop. So where things have to be reliable, safe, secure work all the time. That's where you'll find our software. So factory floor, we're in laser eye surgery. Machines are in patient monitoring devices, MRI machines. And so essentially those areas which are safety critical, where safety, security and reliability, you know, our top real really industrial IOT thing, big time, big time. >>And that's the cool thing about walking around reinvent. There's all kinds of industrial devices and control. So if you go to the car now, if you think about the vehicle, same fundamental needs, reliability, safety, security, and we're trusted to deliver an automotive. So security is one of those things. It's not static. So when you, when you, when you make something that's secure, you're really building something that's resilient to attacks. So you'd be as resilient as possible to prevent attacks. And then you do whatever you can to prevent any malicious act or actions on that. So we will monitor what's going on in the system. We'll monitor any communications going to the car, for instance. So the minute we detect something a bit of normal, we can take action based on that. So that, that's absolutely key, especially given the cars connected and more and more becoming connected. >>What's the opportunity is in a trucking industry, when I think of the number of sensors on trucks, the regulations that you know for drivers safety in terms of how many hours they actually have to be able to can drive. What's the opportunity there for Q next? >>Good question. So everything we're doing in the car, which I should generalize and say a vehicle applies to trucks. So if you think about trucking or vehicles or drones or anything like that, you have multiple sensors that you have to interact with. You have to interpret that information, you have to take action based on that information. So if we look at trucking specifically, everybody knows a major shortage of truck truck, truck drivers. So when people ask me about autonomous cars and Hey, when are we going to see autonomy's vehicles? I always look at trucking and we're working with companies, trucking companies that are using our technology. And one of the first use cases that they're putting forward is something called platooning, where you'll actually have the first truck on the road with a driver and any other trucks on the road. We'll be operating autonomously essentially following like a train if you want on a highway, and then they'll have a starting location and a drop off location and that all of a sudden becomes a real world scenario, which makes use of the same sensors, LIDAR, radar cameras, et cetera. >>So from a trucking perspective, we look at it very similar to a car and automotive perspective because they need the same fundamental technologies. So pretty exciting. Like I said, what we do applies all over the place and again, all going to be connected. But grant, thanks for coming on. I really appreciate, I want to get your final thoughts, at least from my perspective on developers. When you see deep racer, you see that trend. It's kind of, they've got LIDAR, it's kind of a toy, but people geeking out on this. And so I would imagine that we're going to see an emergence of a software development environment where as a controlled sandboxes, cause yeah, they've got the concern with the industrial equipment. Exactly. Yeah. How do you balance that old school industrial mindset of, you know, IOT with the new rapid agile product development? Yeah. And to your point, we're going through that transition now. >>So this is where things like Sage maker come into play where I can develop out and develop and refine machine learning models in the cloud. You still have those tight control loops that you need and there's tools for that. So that's the deeply embedded stuff that's controlling actuators and whatnot. You still need that. But to your point, you need to be more iterative. You need to be more agile, need to develop according to the safety standards and the various industries that they might be in. So it's that is evolving and it's evolving at exactly the right pace. Really glad to see that evolution. But to your point, all of these devices are going to become interconnected. There's going to be new opportunities. And from a developer perspective, you know, we can't hire enough developers. No one can. It's really exciting whether it's IOT cloud developers or embedded developers. >>There's such an exciting future ahead. And I got to ask, this is just popped in my head. So I want to ask, cause I'm curious, um, spectrum and RF power is great, but you need connectivity to make an IOT device work, right? How do you guys, how does the car folks look at conductivity? Just when they get to a spot they can connect. So is it managing the spectrum? How are cars thinking about the connectivity? So we work very closely with the modem vendors. For instance, in today in cars you'll see Bluetooth, you'll see wifi, you'll see 4g. Obviously there's the emergence of 5g. Um, vehicle to vehicle communications is through something called DSRC. Essentially wifi 5g is going to come along, so now you're going to be able to have throughput and also what's called low latency. So quick turn around on your messages and the information being exchanged. >>So that too is evolving from a, from a QA software perspective, we'll make use of whatever modems there. But to your point, we also have to deal with the cases where I've lost connectivity. I still need that V vehicle to operate safely. And especially if you consider that the systems might be, um, uh, the systems might be connected or we don't want to make, make it such that they're dependent on that connectivity. So you have to have fail over scenarios and whatnot, but cars will become connected, devices will become connected. We're going to take advantage of that connectivity, but not be dependent on that connectivity. >>Well, Greg, please let me know when that, uh, personalized service is available so that my car can be found and detailed. They'd find it right in my driveway going lady, please. It's been a pleasure, a really cool stuff. Blackberry Kunis thank you for joining John. We'll be, we'll have to go check out that car for John furrier. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the cube live in Vegas at AWS. Reinvent 19. Thanks for watching.

>> Announcer: Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE. Covering AWS re:Invent 2019, brought to you by Amazon Web Services, and Intel, along with its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, this is theCUBE seventh year of coverage of the mega AWS re:Invent show, here in Las Vegas. Somewhere between 60 and 65,000, up and down the street. We are here in the Sands Convention Center. I am Stu Miniman, my cohost for this segment is Justin Warren. And happy to welcome back to the program, one of our CUBE alumni Jesse Rothstein, who is the co-founder and CTO of ExtraHop, Jesse, great to see you. >> Thank you for having me again. >> So, we caught up with you at AWS re:Inforce-- >> We did. >> Not that long ago, in Boston. Where, it rains more often in Boston than it does in Vegas and it's raining here in Vegas, which is a little odd. >> Strangely it is raining here in Vegas, but re:Inforce at the end of June in Boston was the first AWS security conference. Great energy, great size, we had a lot of fun at that show. >> Yeah, so Dave Vellante, who was one of the ones at re:Inforce, and he actually came out of the three-hour keynote yesterday with Andy Jassy and said, "I'm a little surprised there wasn't as much security talk." You know, it's not like we can remove security from the discussion of cloud, it is you know one of the top issues here. So I want to get your viewpoint, were we missing something? Is it just there, what grabbed you? >> I know this thing as well. I think, perhaps, they're saving some announcements for, you know, re:Inforce coming again in June in Houston this year. There was at least one announcement around IAM Access Analyzer as I recall. But generally the announcements seem to focus in some other areas. You know some big announcements around data warehousing, you know for federated red shift queries I think. And some big announcements around machine learning tooling, like the SageMaker Studio. But I noticed that as well, not as many security announcements. >> You never know, Werner still has his keynote tomorrow. So we're sure there'll still be another 50 or 100 announcements before the week is done. ExtraHop also has something new this week, so why don't we make sure-- >> Well first I can assure you that cloud security is not solved. It's not a solved problem, in fact, unfortunately despite record spend year after year after year, we still continue to see record numbers of compromises and data breaches that are published. I think cloud security in particular remains a challenge. There's a lot of energy there and I think a lot of attention, people recognize it's a problem. But we're dealing with massive cyber security skill shortages. It's very hard to find people with the expertise needed to really secure these workloads. We're dealing with more sophisticated attackers. I think in many cases, attackers with nation state sponsorship. Which is scary, you know five or 10 years ago we didn't see that quite as much. More cyber criminals, fewer nation states. And of course, we're seeing an ever increasing attack surface. So ExtraHop's right in the mix here, and we focus on network detection and response. I'm a huge believer in the power of network security, and I'll talk more about that. At re:Inforce last June, we announced ExtraHop Reveal(x) Cloud, which is a SaaS offering using AWS's recent VPC Traffic Mirroring capability. So the idea is, all you do is you mirror a copy of the traffic, using VPC Traffic Mirroring, to our SaaS, and then we provide all of the sophisticated detection, investigation and response capabilities, as a product. So that's hosted, you still do the work of investigating it, but you know we provide the entire offering around that. Very low TCO, very turnkey capabilities. And of course, it wouldn't be a modern day security offering if we didn't leverage very sophisticated machine learning, to detect suspicious behaviors and potential threats. But this is something I think we do better than anybody else in the world. >> So walk us through some of what the machine learning actually does. 'Cause I feel that the machine learning and AI is kind of hitting peak hype cycle maybe. >> You know I almost can't say it with a straight face because it's so overused. But, it is absolutely real, that's where the state of the art is. Machine learning allows us to recognize behaviors, and behaviors are very important because we're looking for post-breach behaviors and indicators of compromise. So there are a million ways that you can be breached. The attack surface is absolutely enormous. But there's actually a relatively small number, and a relatively tractable set of post-breach behaviors that attackers will do once you're compromised. And I think more and more organizations are realizing that it's a matter of when and not if. So what we've done is we've built the machine learning behavioral model so that we can detect these suspicious behaviors. In some cases we have an entire team of threat researchers that are simulating attacks, simulating pen testing tools, lateral movement, exfiltration so we can train our models on these behaviors. In some cases, we're looking for very specific indicators of compromise. But in just about all cases, this results in very high quality detections. And because just detections alone are completely insufficient, ExtraHop is built on top of an entire analytics platform, so that you're always one or two clicks away from being able to determine, is this something that requires immediate attention and requires kind of an incident response scenario? One of the capabilities that we announced here at this show, is automated response. So we integrate with the AWS API, so that we can automatically isolate and quarantine a workload that's behaving suspiciously. You know in cyber security, some attacks are low and slow but some are very fast and destructive. And for the fast and destructive ones, you move faster than a human's ability to respond, so we need that automated response. And we also announced a continuous packet capture capability for forensics, because sometimes you need the packets. >> That's a response, a lot of different things that we'd actually like to bring the capability a little bit earlier than that so that we don't actually get breached. It's great that we can detect it and say, great we've got the indication of compromise and we can react very, very quickly to that. Are you able to help us get one step ahead of the cyber crimes? >> So I'll actually be a little contrarian on that. I'm going to say that organizations have really been investing in protection and prevention, for the last decade or two. You know this strategy's called defense and depth, and you should do it, everybody should, that's a best practice. But, you know, with defense and depth, you have lots of layers of defense at the perimeters. You know keep the attackers out of the perimeter, gateways, firewalls, proxies. Lots of layers of defense at the end point, you know keep attackers off of my workstations, my instances, my laptops, things like that. But, you know, I think again, organizations have learned that attackers can fire, you know, 1,000 arrows, or 100,000 arrows, or 100 million arrows and only one needs to land. So the pendulum is really swung toward detection response. How do I know if I'm breached right now? How can I detect it quickly? The industry average dwell time is over three months, which is unacceptably long, and we always hear about cases in the news that are three years or more. And what I like to say is if it were three weeks, that would be too long. If it were three days, that would be too long, if it were three hours, I think you could do a lot of damage in three hours. If you can start getting this down to three minutes, well maybe, you know, we can limit the blast radius in three minutes. >> So Jesse, you brought up the ever growing surface area of attack and one of the big themes we've seen at the show is AWS is pushing the boundaries of where they touch customers. You know I said if Amazon is the everything store, AWS is becoming the everywhere cloud. Outposts, from Amazon's perspective, they said Outposts just extends their security models. I see and hear a lot of the ecosystem talking about how they're leveraging that and integrating with that. Does Outposts or any of their other Edge solutions impact what your customers and your solutions are doing? >> So it's funny you say that, I was wondering that myself. My expectation is that Outposts are a good thing because they the have same security controls that we expect to see in any AWS kind of VPC enabled environment. Where I haven't gotten full clarification is do we have the full capabilities that we expect with VPCs? In particular, you know VPC Traffic Mirroring, which is the capability that was announced at re:Inforce, that I'm so excited about, because it allows us to actually analyze and inspect that traffic. Another capability that I think slipped in under the radar but it was announced yesterday is VPC Ingress Routing. This doesn't really effect ExtraHop that much, but as a network head, I like seeing Amazon enable organizations to kind of make their own choices around how they want to inspect and control traffic. And with VPC Ingress Routing, it actually allows you to run in-line devices between your VPCs, which previously you were unable to do. So I think that one slipped in under the radar, maybe you have to be a network head like me to really appreciate it. But I'm seeing more flexibility and not less and that's something that I'm really pleased with. >> That one thing that we definitely see with cloud is that explosion of customer choice, and all of these different methods that are available. And Amazon just keeps pushing the boundaries on how quickly they can release new features. What does that mean for ExtraHop in being able to keep up with the pace of change that customers are using all of these different features? >> That's a good question, I think that's just the reality, so I don't think about what it means or doesn't mean, that's just the way it is. In general though, I've seen this trend toward more flexibility. You know VPC Traffic Mirroring, to use that example again, was one of the few examples I could point to a year ago as something really useful and valuable that I could do on-premises, you know for diagnostic purposes, for forensics purposes, that for some reason wasn't available in public cloud, at least not easily. And, you know, with this announcement six months ago, and going to general availability, Amazon finally ticked that one off. And we're starting to see the rest of the public cloud ecosystem move that way as well. So I'm seeing more flexibility, and more control. Maybe that comes with a pace of innovation, but I think that's just the world we live in. >> You do mention that the customers are having to adopt this new regime, of look we need to look at compromise, can we detect if we've been compromised, and can we do it quickly. We have a lot of tools that are now being made available, like Igress Routing, but, sorry Ingress Routing. But what does that mean for customers in changing their mindset? One of the themes that we had from the keynote yesterday was transformation, so do customers need to just transform the way they think about security? >> Yes and no. You know certainly customers who are used to a certain set of on-prem tool set, tool chain can't necessarily just shoehorn that into their public cloud workloads. But on the other hand, I think that public cloud workloads have really suffered from an opacity problem, it's very difficult to see what's going on, you know its hard to sift through all those logs, it's hard to get the visibility that you expect. And I think that the cyber security tool set, tool chain, has been pretty fragmented. There are a lot of vulnerability scanners, there are a lot of kind of like API inspectors and recommendation engines. But I think the industry is still really trying to figure out what this means. So I'm seeing a lot of innovation, and I'm seeing kind of a rapid maturing of that kind of cloud security ecosystem. And for products like ExtraHop, I'm just a huge believer in the power of the network for security, because it's got these great properties that other sources of data don't have. It's as close to ground truth as you could possibly get, very hard to tamper with and impossible to turn off. With VPC Traffic Mirroring, we get the full power of network security and it's really designed with the controls and kind of the IAM roles and such that you would expect for these security use cases, which, I just, great, great advance. >> So along the discussion of transformation, one of the things Andy Jassy talked about is the you know, the senior leadership, the CEOs need to be involved. Something we've been saying in the security industry for years. Not only CEOs, the board is you know, talking about this and it's there, so you know, what are you seeing? You stated before that we haven't solved security yet, but so, bring us inside the mindset of your customers today, and what's the angst and you know, where are we making progress? >> That's a very interesting question. I'll probably be a little contrarian here as well, maybe not but I think we see a lot of pressure is regulatory pressure. You know were seeing a lot of new regulations come out around data privacy and security, GDPR was you know pretty transformative in terms of how organizations thought about that. I also think it's important that there are consequences. I was worried that for a few years data breaches were becoming so commonplace that people were getting kind of desensitized to it. Like, there was once a time that if, when there was a massive data breach kind of heads would roll. And there was a sense of consequences all the way up into the C-suite. But a few years ago I was starting to get concerned that people were getting a little lackadaisical like, "Oh just another data breach." My perception is that the pendulum's swinging back again. I think for truly massive data breaches, there really is a sense of brand. And I'm seeing the industry starting to demand better privacy. The consumer industry is perhaps leading the way. I think Apple's doing a very good job of actually selling privacy. So when you see the economics, I mean we're, it's a capitalist system. And when you see kind of the market economics align with the incentives, then that's when you actually see change. So I'm very encouraged by the alignment of kind of the market economics for paying greater attention to privacy and security. >> All right, want to give you a final word here, you said you'd like to have some contrarian viewpoints. So you know, the last question is just you know, what would you like to kind of just educate the marketplace on that maybe goes against the common perception when it comes to security in general, maybe network security specifically? >> Well, I'll probably just reiterate what I said earlier. Network security is a fundamental capability, and a fundamental source of data. I think organizations pay a lot of attention to their log files. I think organizations do invest in protection and prevention. But I think the ability to observe all of the network communications, and then the ability to detect suspicious behaviors and potential threats, bring it to your attention, take you through an investigative workflow, make sure that you're one click away from determining you know, whether this requires an actual incident response, and in some cases take an automated response. I think that is a very powerful solution and one that drastically increases an organization's cyber security posture. So I would always encourage organizations to invest there regardless of whether it's our solution or somebody else's. I'm a huge believer in the space. >> All right so, Jesse, thank you so much for sharing. We know that the security industry still has lots of work to do. So we look forward to catching ExtraHop soon at another event. And we have lots of work to do to cover all of the angles of this sprawling ecosystem here at AWS re:Invent. For Justin Warren, I'm Stu Miniman, be back with lots more right after this, and thank you for watching theCUBE. (bouncy electronic music)

>> Voiceover: Live from Las Vegas it's theCUBE covering AWS re:Invent 2019. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services and Intel along with its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to Las Vegas everybody. We're here live at the the Sands Convention Center. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in live tech coverage. We go out to the events and extract the signal from the noise. This is re:Invent 2019, the seventh year theCUBE has been here. I'm Dave Vellante with my co-host Justin Warren. Sesh Iyer is here, he's the Managing Director and Senior Partner at DCG and is joined by Allen Chen who's the Associate Director of Software Engineering at BCG. Gents, welcome to theCUBE, good to see you. >> Thank you >> Thank you for having us >> So we're going to talk about AI, we're going to talk about machine intelligence, digital transformation, but I want to start with this concept that you guys have put forth and you're putting it to action with some of your clients I'm sure, of this bionic organization. You know it's a catchy term, but what's behind it? What's a bionic company? >> So if you think about the next 10 years we believe that it's going to be the era of the bionic organization. Where the bionic organization is essentially humans and machines coming together. The bio and the nic, right. We believe that we are at a point now where the power from AI, the power from machines combined with the intrinsic human potential coming together delivers a very, very different set of outcomes. We get to outcomes largely on three fronts. The first is around customer experiences and relationships, you take that to a really new level. The second thing is in operations, you drive to a lot more productive set of operations through automation, and the third thing is innovation. The rate of innovation is just going to increase significantly, and we are seeing a lot of that today at re:Invent here. >> So you're optimists for the future, right? You don't want to pave the cow path, you don't want to protect the past from the future, but at the same time people are concerned, right. Machines are replacing humans, and they always have but for the first time in history it's with cognitive functions. So I'm sure you guys are having these conversations with your clients, maybe that's one of the blockers is that sort of perceptions that it's going to cause too much disruption. But maybe you could talk about that. How do I get to become a bionic organization? What are some of the barriers that I have to go through? >> I think the biggest thing is we are actually getting to an organization where technology continues to augment the human. So it's not substituting or replacing the human it's really augmenting the human. So how do we take human performance and organizational performance to a next level by bringing them together? So it's always about them coming together. When we think about barriers the real barriers actually are organizational models and old ways of working. They are legacy technologies. It's the lack of access to data that we can leverage to actually convert that into insightful outcomes using AI. And the lack of talent, so we really are at a point where we don't have enough digital and AI talent out there . Andy today talked about training as one of the core tenants of what you do to take an organization to leverage technologies that we have today, so those are the things that are barriers today that we're working with our clients on to overcome, to be able to extract the full potential of what we can do. >> Allen maybe you could talk a little bit about BCG's AI business, how do you guys look at it? Maybe share that with our audience. >> I mean as Sesh mentioned, the bionic organization really has two parts, right. It has the human element and it has the machine element and AI is really the thing that underpins the backbone for the machine element, but you can't really disconnect it from the human, because you know as we see with our clients if you just do the algorithms themselves the algorithms can't change the business, right. You can't remove the algorithms from the context of the business. The people who need to make the cultural changes, the organizational changes, the priority changes to actually put those algorithms into action. So we of course, as a company that helps clients go through this transformation, we have to usher along the human change but for the AI and machine learning change, we bring a lot of the best talent that we have. We've got 850 data scientists and engineers around the world helping our clients go through this transformation and you know we build lots of really, really interesting technology. For example, we've got a platform called SOURCE AI that we use to facilitate the building of these AI models and these advanced analytics use cases to accelerate at least the machine portion of that journey. >> Do you have a discrete AI business, a practice, or is it part of sort of a client's digital transformation where you bring in that expertise? >> Yeah, so within BCG we have a group called BCG GAMMA which is the arm of the company that focuses solely on AI and machine learning use cases. But the thing is, our model isn't just to kind of embed ourselves into your company and try to like take root and be there forever. We want to empower these companies to kind of kickstart their journey so we can go in, we help them get started, prove out a few use cases and then we actually train and transfer them so that they can make sure that the programs that we helped plant the seeds for end up being long term, sustainable programs for them. >> Dave: Teaching 'em to fish? >> Exactly >> When we think about what really drives impact and outcome and clients, it's all about bringing together the different capabilities that we have. So we have our heritage strategy consulting business. We have GAMMA, which is our AI at-scale, data analytics business. We have BCG Digital Ventures which is all about incubating new companies and taking them out of market. And then we have our Platinion team which is all about driving new architectures, new technologies, in terms of driving adoption at client. So all these capabilities typically come together at a client for us to deliver impact at the end of the day. >> Examples of sort of where you've implemented? Some successes? >> So I think, I think one great example that we have is around when you think about customer experiences and customer engagement, we have recently done a piece of work with United Airlines that's actually getting showcased here at AWS re:Invent where we really used personalization technology that we have with our partner Formation.Ai to really deliver a new level of customer experience and engagement for United customers, right. So we call it Miles Play and you can actually, I don't know if you guys are United customers, I know you guys travel a lot, >> Dave: Of course, everybody we also, so Miles Play is a way in which we have actually really leveraged AI and gamification inside of the United app to really drive a different level of experience for customers. So that's one example, there are many, many others. >> Yeah, we are here at AWS re:Invent as you point out, and the talk of transformation was part of the keynote this morning with Andy Jassy. A lot of that is around organizational change, but this is also a cloud show, so how does this work that BCG's doing with AI, how does that interact with the cloud and how does that link into that idea of organizational transformation? >> So when we think about, again I'll go back to that bionic organization, we see as we move towards this new organization that's bringing together bringing together data, technology as well as organization constructs, there are four things that we think of. We think about purpose at the core. So what is the reason that an organization exists, and how to we make that alive, and bring it alive? I think there's a second around data and technologies. So what can you do with AI, what can you do with data, how do you really drive modular technologies to adopt them to drive change? And then there's a third around people and organization. So how do you drive new organizational models to get an organization to deliver to the potential? And how do you bring new talent? And you know Andy talked about re-skilling today or training people, and then lastly leadership. How do you bring in a different style of leadership, we call it jazz leadership, where you really have to bring different parts of your organization to, and help them orchestrate to get to an outcome, rather than a more command and control style approach. So all of these are the pieces that we see coming together and that's what we work with our clients on to move them from where they are today to where they will be in the next 5 years. >> Allen you have software in your title, so I'm curious as to what kind of tooling that you guys have built, that you apply in your client situations? >> Yeah, so we work with a lot of different clients in a lot of different industries, and in a lot of different use cases and even though we treat every client as a unique situation there are patterns that begin to emerge and we want to make sure that, you know in order to provide the most value to our clients we want to be able to quickly prove out wins and use cases. And one of the ways that we're able to do that is building software products that facilitate those things. And so we've got data scientists that go through this whole machine learning pipeline even though the use cases are different, the challenges are kind of the same no matter what so you go through the process of how do you get access to data, right? Once you have access to data, how do you begin experimenting with models? Once you've experimented, how do you begin to consolidate the knowledge of the team to start evaluating models in a collaborative way? And once you have a model that you decide is good, how do you deploy that into a client environment? In many cases, it's going to be cloud because in order for these clients to really see the value of these AI programs, it's got to scale and so we work very closely with partners like AWS to ensure that we can bring the most scalable AI solutions to bear for our clients. And so we build platforms like SOURCE AI to facilitate that entire journey from data access all the way to deployment at scale. And then depending on the verticals, we also have other products that are most use case specific So we work with a lot of airlines to actually do airline scheduling for their airplanes, gate scheduling, routing bags. And so while we have SOURCE AI underpinning the platform, airlines have very, very unique problems of their own that are very, very interesting to solve and so we built products to cater to those industries specifically as well. >> One other piece that I would add is for the retail industry for example, markdowns is a big topic. So how do you get the best price for the given inventory that you have. We again have AI based solutions that drive markdowns and take the profitability of the revenue of a client to a better level than they're at. >> One of the things that we see is many of our clients want to get increasingly close to their customer to have that one-on-one relationship that traditional marketing can never afford you, right. So with things like markdown and personalization, we can gather all this data, use the latest AI techniques and begin to start giving offers and discounts and promotions and offers to people on a one-to-one basis, rather than marketing to a cohort of people. >> So a lot of these are functional areas, particular problem domains that have particular technological solutions, and then the pace of technology continues to change. We've seen that for decades. But it seems that this transformational agenda that we need to have, has a lot more to do with the humans and that problem doesn't really seem to have changed to me in the last several decades. BCG's been around for a very long time. Became famous back in the '80s for doing a lot of the same sort of transformational ideas how do you transform your organization? So what is it that is about, what is it about cloud and AI today that's changed the nature of organizational change? What the change in there? >> So my sense is My sense is, if you think about maybe there are two points to make here, and then Allen you should add on. I think one is, it's always easy to bring AI and data and do a proof of concept, right? And to show that something has potential. Taking that potential to impact and outcomes requires it to move to being at scale. So one of the big changes that we are seeing is we have to take these AI technologies and really deliver them at scale. So that's one piece of it. I think the other piece that really becomes important is leveraging AI for the right context in which you're applying the solve for. So you need to go into targeted spaces, as Allen said, certain use cases that have huge impact and go after it and deliver value there. As opposed to trying to do something a lot more expansively. So how do you now go into specific industries and identify unique areas that have a lot of promise and potential, and then put your energy against that to get to again impactful outcomes. Right, he had that example around markdowns. We've talked about airline optimization, we have talked about personalization. All of these are good examples of very targeted areas that have a lot of potential to really drive value. >> Yeah, like one of the things that I see that cloud has changed the transformation process is just the ability for us to very quickly experiment with new use cases, right. In terms of the types of tools and building blocks that cloud vendors like AWS provide us, you know we could think of an idea, an AI powered use case one day, and we could start cranking the gears on it the next day and if it works, we could just start scaling it up. And if it doesn't, we turn it off and it's a very, very kind of low regret, low risk kind of thing. Whereas back in the day where everybody is building data centers, in order to try something new you have to capitalize the cost of actually buying all this hardware, filling up your data center, staffing it, and then if it turns out that that use case didn't pan out, well now you've got loads of hardware that's just kind of costing you tons of money every day. With the cloud, we can just move so much more quickly and take a lot more bold risks. >> It's the cost of, I think it's the cost of experiments and the speed with which you can bring teams to get to outcomes. Right, so Andy again talked today about an integrated development environment for data scientists. How do you really bring data scientists, get them to start working on something, experiment with it, start to show some potential and then really scale it? Those are things that we believe, you know cloud has really immensely changed. The other thing is access to massive, massive data sets. Again Andy today talked about how different data sets can be brought into Amazon and the ability to do that easily today. So how can you really create value from these billions, and billions of rows of data that are sitting out there in your enterprise and converting that into something meaningful. >> So that approach and that philosophy of sort of low risk, pick a winner, scale it first of all, the CFO loves it, I think generally the organization is going to see value. They can, it's tangible. However, I think about digital disruption and if you think about the successful digital companies they've got data at their core. So my question to you is, are you helping these sort of incumbents? You mentioned United, I'm sure there are many others you work with. Are they able to sort of transform and put data at the core, become a digitally transformed organization before somebody disrupts them? You know will those, maybe not quick hits, but those focused projects, will they ultimately lead to an outcome that transforms them in a way that Jassy was sort of putting forth today? >> I would, I think so. I think that's the promise of the next five years. So if I think about, when we talk about a bionic organization, we talk about 30 to 50 processes that that organization will have. I mean my sense is those processes will have 50 to 60% of the components that are driven by AI or data. So if you think about an incumbent today working in manual processes, legacy systems, they are going to actually move to leveraging AI and data and new ways of working to transform that legacy environment into a next gen technological environment but also ways of working, and then bringing all of that together to drive a very different level of engagement with the customer, experiences with the customer, how they actually run their operations, do it much faster, reduce cycle time, and then also the rate and pace of innovation, right. You can see today the number of new features that got released on AWS and it's all been in a year and there are like 30 of them. So how do you really drive to that level of rate and pace of innovation. You'll see all of those happening in all of these traditional industries over the next five years. >> And if they don't move, they're going to probably be in big trouble. >> Sesh: They are going to be in big trouble, they're going to die >> All right, guys thanks so much for coming on theCUBE. It was great conversation, great to have you. >> Our pleasure, thank you >> Yeah, thank you so much for the time. >> All right, keep it right there everybody we'll be back with our next guest right after this short break. Dave Vellante for Justin Warren from AWS re:Invent 2019. Right back (electronic music)

>> Announcer: Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE! Covering AWS re:Invent 2019. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services and Intel, along with its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to the Sands Convention Center in Las Vegas everybody, you're watching theCUBE, the leader in live tech coverage. My name is Dave Vellante, I'm here with my cohost Justin Warren, this is day one of our coverage of AWS re:Invent 2019, Naveen Rao here, he's the corporate vice president and general manager of artificial intelligence, AI products group at Intel, good to see you again, thanks for coming to theCUBE. >> Thanks for having me. >> Dave: You're very welcome, so what's going on with Intel and AI, give us the big picture. >> Yeah, I mean actually the very big picture is I think the world of computing is really shifting. The purpose of what a computer is made for is actually shifting, and I think from its very conception, from Alan Turing, the machine was really meant to be something that recapitulated intelligence, and we took sort of a divergent path where we built applications for productivity, but now we're actually coming back to that original intent, and I think that hits everything that Intel does, because we're a computing company, we supply computing to the world, so everything we do is actually impacted by AI, and will be in service of building better AI platforms, for intelligence at the edge, intelligence in the cloud, and everything in between. >> It's really come full circle, I mean, when I first started this industry, AI was the big hot topic, and really, Intel's ascendancy was around personal productivity, but now we're seeing machines replacing cognitive functions for humans, that has implications for society. But there's a whole new set of workloads that are emerging, and that's driving, presumably, different requirements, so what do you see as the sort of infrastructure requirements for those new workloads, what's Intel's point of view on that? >> Well, so maybe let's focus that on the cloud first. Any kind of machine learning algorithm typically has two phases to it, one is called training or learning, where we're really iterating over large data sets to fit model parameters. And once that's been done to a satisfaction of whatever performance metrics that are relevant to your application, it's rolled out and deployed, that phase is called inference. So these two are actually quite different in their requirements in that inference is all about the best performance per watt, how much processing can I shove into a particular time and power budget? On the training side, it's much more about what kind of flexibility do I have for exploring different types of models, and training them very very fast, because when this field kind of started taking off in 2014, 2013, typically training a model back then would take a month or so, those models now take minutes to train, and the models have grown substantially in size, so we've still kind of gone back to a couple of weeks of training time, so anything we can do to reduce that is very important. >> And why the compression, is that because of just so much data? >> It's data, the sheer amount of data, the complexity of data, and the complexity of the models. So, very broad or a rough categorization of the complexity can be the number of parameters in a model. So, back in 2013, there were, call it 10 million, 20 million parameters, which was very large for a machine learning model. Now they're in the billions, one or two billion is sort of the state of the art. To give you bearings on that, the human brain is about a three to 500 trillion model, so we're still pretty far away from that. So we got a long way to go. >> Yeah, so one of the things about these models is that once you've trained them, that then they do things, but understanding how they work, these are incredibly complex mathematical models, so are we at a point where we just don't understand how these machines actually work, or do we have a pretty good idea of, "No no no, when this model's trained to do this thing, "this is how it behaves"? >> Well, it really depends on what you mean by how much understanding we have, so I'll say at one extreme, we trust humans to do certain things, and we don't really understand what's happening in their brain. We trust that there's a process in place that has tested them enough. A neurosurgeon's cutting into your head, you say you know what, there's a system where that neurosurgeon probably had to go through a ton of training, be tested over and over again, and now we trust that he or she is doing the right thing. I think the same thing is happening in AI, some aspects we can bound and say, I have analytical methods on how I can measure performance. In other ways, other places, it's actually not so easy to measure the performance analytically, we have to actually do it empirically, which means we have data sets that we say, "Does it stand up to all the different tests?" One area we're seeing that in is autonomous driving. Autonomous driving, it's a bit of a black box, and the amount of situations one can incur on the road are almost limitless, so what we say is, for a 16 year old, we say "Go out and drive," and eventually you sort of learn it. Same thing is happening now for autonomous systems, we have these training data sets where we say, "Do you do the right thing in these scenarios?" And we say "Okay, we trust that you'll probably "do the right thing in the real world." >> But we know that Intel has partnered with AWS, I ran autonomous driving with their DeepRacer project, and I believe it's on Thursday is the grand final, it's been running for, I think it was announced on theCUBE last year, and there's been a whole bunch of competitions running all year, basically training models that run on this Intel chip inside a little model car that drives around a race track, so speaking of empirical testing of whether or not it works, lap times gives you a pretty good idea, so what have you learned from that experience, of having all of these people go out and learn how to use these ALM models on a real live race car and race around a track? >> I think there's several things, I mean one thing is, when you turn loose a number of developers on a competitive thing, you get really interesting results, where people find creative ways to use the tools to try to win, so I always love that process, I think competition is how you push technology forward. On the tool side, it's actually more interesting to me, is that we had to come up with something that was adequately simple, so that a large number of people could get going on it quickly. You can't have somebody who spends a year just getting the basic infrastructure to work, so we had to put that in place. And really, I think that's still an iterative process, we're still learning what we can expose as knobs, what kind of areas of innovation we allow the user to explore, and where we sort of walk it down to make it easy to use. So I think that's the biggest learning we get from this, is how I can deploy AI in the real world, and what's really needed from a tool chain standpoint. >> Can you talk more specifically about what you guys each bring to the table with your collaboration with AWS? >> Yeah, AWS has been a great partner. Obviously AWS has a huge ecosystem of developers, all kinds of different developers, I mean web developers are one sort of developer, database developers are another, AI developers are yet another, and we're kind of partnering together to empower that AI base. What we bring from a technological standpoint are of course the hardware, our CPUs, our AI ready now with a lot of software that we've been putting out in the open source. And then other tools like OpenVINO, which make it very easy to start using AI models on our hardware, and so we tie that in to the infrastructure that AWS is building for something like DeepRacer, and then help build a community around it, an ecosystem around it of developers. >> I want to go back to the point you were making about the black box, AI, people are concerned about that, they're concerned about explainability. Do you feel like that's a function of just the newness that we'll eventually get over, and I mean I can think of so many examples in my life where I can't really explain how I know something, but I know it, and I trust it. Do you feel like it's sort of a tempest in a teapot? >> Yeah, I think it depends on what you're talking about, if you're talking about the traceability of a financial transaction, we kind of need that maybe for legal reasons, so even for humans we do that. You got to write down everything you did, why did you do this, why'd you do that, so we actually want traceability for humans, even. In other places, I think it is really about the newness. Do I really trust this thing, I don't know what it's doing. Trust comes with use, after a while it becomes pretty straightforward, I mean I think that's probably true for a cell phone, I remember the first smartphones coming out in the early 2000s, I didn't trust how they worked, I would never do a credit card transaction on 'em, these kind of things, now it's taken for granted. I've done it a million times, and I never had any problems, right? >> It's the opposite in social media, most people. >> Maybe that's the opposite, let's not go down that path. >> I quite like Dr. Kate Darling's analogy from MIT lab, which is we already we have AI, and we're quite used to them, they're called dogs. We don't fully understand how a dog makes a decision, and yet we use 'em every day. In a collaboration with humans, so a dog, sort of replace a particular job, but then again they don't, I don't particularly want to go and sniff things all day long. So having AI systems that can actually replace some of those jobs, actually, that's kind of great. >> Exactly, and think about it like this, if we can build systems that are tireless, and we can basically give 'em more power and they keep going, that's a big win for us. And actually, the dog analogy is great, because I think, at least my eventual goal as an AI researcher is to make the interface for intelligent agents to be like a dog, to train it like a dog, reinforce it for the behaviors you want and keep pushing it in new directions that way, as opposed to having to write code that's kind of esoteric. >> Can you talk about GANs, what is GANs, what's it stand for, what does it mean? >> Generative Adversarial Networks. What this means is that, you can kind of think of it as, two competing sides of solving a problem. So if I'm trying to make a fake picture of you, that makes it look like you have no hair, like me, you can see a Photoshop job, and you can kind of tell, that's not so great. So, one side is trying to make the picture, and the other side is trying to guess whether it's fake or not. We have two neural networks that are kind of working against each other, one's generating stuff, and the other one's saying, is it fake or not, and then eventually you keep improving each other, this one tells that one "No, I can tell," this one goes and tries something else, this one says "No, I can still tell." The one that's trying with a discerning network, once it can't tell anymore, you've kind of built something that's really good, that's sort of the general principle here. So we basically have two things kind of fighting each other to get better and better at a particular task. >> Like deepfakes. >> I use that because it is relevant in this case, and that's kind of where it came from, is from GANs. >> All right, okay, and so wow, obviously relevant with 2020 coming up. I'm going to ask you, how far do you think we can take AI, two part question, how far can we take AI in the near to mid term, let's talk in our lifetimes, and how far should we take it? Maybe you can address some of those thoughts. >> So how far can we take it, well, I think we often have the sci-fi narrative out there of building killer machines and this and that, I don't know that that's actually going to happen anytime soon, for several reasons, one is, we build machines for a purpose, they don't come from an embattled evolutionary past like we do, so their motivations are a little bit different, say. So that's one piece, they're really purpose-driven. Also, building something that's as general as a human or a dog is very hard, and we're not anywhere close to that. When I talked about the trillions of parameters that a human brain has, we might be able to get close to that from a engineering standpoint, but we're not really close to making those trillions of parameters work together in such a coherent way that a human brain does, and efficient, human brain does that in 20 watts, to do it today would be multiple megawatts, so it's not really something that's easily found, just laying around. Now how far should we take it, I look at AI as a way to push humanity to the next level. Let me explain what that means a little bit. Simple equation I always sort of write down, is people are like "Radiologists aren't going to have a job." No no no, what it means is one radiologist plus AI equals 100 radiologists. I can take that person's capabilities and scale it almost freely to millions of other people. It basically increases the accessibility of expertise, we can scale expertise, that's a good thing. It makes, solves problems like we have in healthcare today. All right, that's where we should be going with this. >> Well a good example would be, when, and probably part of the answer's today, when will machines make better diagnoses than doctors? I mean in some cases it probably exists today, but not broadly, but that's a good example, right? >> It is, it's a tool, though, so I look at it as more, giving a human doctor more data to make a better decision on. So, what AI really does for us is it doesn't limit the amount of data on which we can make decisions, as a human, all I can do is read so much, or hear so much, or touch so much, that's my limit of input. If I have an AI system out there listening to billions of observations, and actually presenting data in a form that I can make better decisions on, that's a win. It allows us to actually move science forward, to move accessibility of technologies forward. >> So keeping the context of that timeframe I said, someday in our lifetimes, however you want to define that, when do you think that, or do you think that driving your own car will become obsolete? >> I don't know that it'll ever be obsolete, and I'm a little bit biased on this, so I actually race cars. >> Me too, and I drive a stick, so. >> I kind of race them semi-professionally, so I don't want that to go away, but it's the same thing, we don't need to ride horses anymore, but we still do for fun, so I don't think it'll completely go away. Now, what I think will happen is that commutes will be changed, we will now use autonomous systems for that, and I think five, seven years from now, we will be using autonomy much more on prescribed routes. It won't be that it completely replaces a human driver, even in that timeframe, because it's a very hard problem to solve, in a completely general sense. So, it's going to be a kind of gentle evolution over the next 20 to 30 years. >> Do you think that AI will change the manufacturing pendulum, and perhaps some of that would swing back to, in this country, anyway, on-shore manufacturing? >> Yeah, perhaps, I was in Taiwan a couple of months ago, and we're actually seeing that already, you're seeing things that maybe were much more labor-intensive before, because of economic constraints are becoming more mechanized using AI. AI as inspection, did this machine install this thing right, so you have an inspector tool and you have an AI machine building it, it's a little bit like a GAN, you can think of, right? So this is happening already, and I think that's one of the good parts of AI, is that it takes away those harsh conditions that humans had to be in before to build devices. >> Do you think AI will eventually make large retail stores go away? >> Well, I think as long as there are humans who want immediate satisfaction, I don't know that it'll completely go away. >> Some humans enjoy shopping. >> Naveen: Some people like browsing, yeah. >> Depends how fast you need to get it. And then, my last AI question, do you think banks, traditional banks will lose control of the payment systems as a result of things like machine intelligence? >> Yeah, I do think there are going to be some significant shifts there, we're already seeing many payment companies out there automate several aspects of this, and reducing the friction of moving money. Moving money between people, moving money between different types of assets, like stocks and Bitcoins and things like that, and I think AI, it's a critical component that people don't see, because it actually allows you to make sure that first you're doing a transaction that makes sense, when I move from this currency to that one, I have some sense of what's a real number. It's much harder to defraud, and that's a critical element to making these technologies work. So you need AI to actually make that happen. >> All right, we'll give you the last word, just maybe you want to talk a little bit about what we can expect, AI futures, or anything else you'd like to share. >> I think it's, we're at a really critical inflection point where we have something that works, basically, and we're going to scale it, scale it, scale it to bring on new capabilities. It's going to be really expensive for the next few years, but we're going to then throw more engineering at it and start bringing it down, so I start seeing this look a lot more like a brain, something where we can start having intelligence everywhere, at various levels, very low power, ubiquitous compute, and then very high power compute in the cloud, but bringing these intelligent capabilities everywhere. >> Naveen, great guest, thanks so much for coming on theCUBE. >> Thank you, thanks for having me. >> You're really welcome, all right, keep it right there everybody, we'll be back with our next guest, Dave Vellante for Justin Warren, you're watching theCUBE live from AWS re:Invent 2019. We'll be right back. (techno music)

from the silicon angle media office in Boston Massachusetts it's the queue now here's your host Stu minimun hi and welcome to a special cube conversation here in our Boston area studio I am Stu minimun and we're digging in with Dell EMC on data protection in the multi cloud where era happy to join welcome to the program first time guest Nelson Nelson Hsu who is the director of solutions marketing with Dell EMC Nelson great to see you great to be here thank you sir all right so you and I were both at Q con plus cloud native con with about 12,000 of our friends in the open-source community down in San Diego California you know when you bring us in first it's probably not the first place that people think of when they think of Delhi MC so explain a little bit what the team was doing the announcements there and what you're seeing at the show sure no I appreciate that it was a first time for for Dell technologies it was kind of our coming-out party if you all went into the cloud native realm we've got a tremendous amount of momentum especially OCR on kubernetes between what we've done in the data protection space with our power protect software for kubernetes we've done in our storage room in the work that we've done around container storage interfaces so a lot of that was coming out in introducing that to the Keuka and cognitive count attendees I think it was a really good timing though yeah Elson we've been watching you know the role the developers the discussion of DevOps of course is central what's happening not only at cube con but many of the cloud shows there I know at VMworld you know you see what's happening on with the VMware code team so explain how a kind of the the Dell technologies cloud partnership with vm or how about all that all pulls together for activities that the your organization's doing with that within the DevOps well you know you you know they were right they're right it's all about DevOps it's about the developers it's about the the new world of bringing cloud native applications and driving them into the production environment I think that you know we heard that at vmworld with pack L singer and we're his his pillars of you know build run protect connect are key aspects so you know if you look at that man component protect falls right into that area right because with the growth of data as we're seeing it today the need to manage that in the cloud native realm becomes even more prevalent and important you know we've seen DevOps mature over the last couple years where you see you know we had 8,000 people in Seattle right now we had 12,500 of your best friends and just gonna go out right I'm sure you saw that yeah absolutely huge growth there and I'm glad you brought up to protect thing because when I think about developers we want to reduce the friction for developers to be able to build their apps you think about DevOps is you know keeping agility going but you know where is the data and how do I make sure that you know we know when we go to a cloud world we still need to things about security we still need to think about data management and data protection there so explain for audience how that protect piece fits into the DevOps world well you know for first we should clarify a little bit right because like over the last two years everything's been about security within containers right and that's great because you're protecting the applications and people are worried about about penetration there and and it's been fantastic and I think that today specifically around the aspect of securing the application and now securing the infrastructure is key you know storage has become a very very relevant topic whether it's like persistent volumes taking center stage right when it comes to claim a vApps movie into production because it's about protecting those mission critical workloads and as you just stated you have your applications but at the end of the day your data right is really at the capital right and that's what you really need to focus on it becomes greater and greater importance when you have that holistic discussion about DevOps right and so now we have the aspect of the kubernetes administrator meets the IT administrator all right and having to be able to protect through this application transformation that's being driven by cloud native complexity and that you know tradition was disaggregated from the infrastructure but now as you mature and you look at those production and mission-critical environments you really have to pay attention to how am I going to protect my data the edge to core to cloud and in that cloud native world yeah definitely is one of those areas we found at the conference for many it's a steep learning curve to try to understand you know kubernetes all these cloud native architectures if you come in there with the traditional infrastructure role I was actually something we were discussed more a couple of years ago was they've some of the basic blocking and tackling of networking and storage inside of a container environment but now a lot of discussion is around that application development and therefore we need to make sure that we're having not only the app dev but the infrastructure team all understanding how everything goes together and you know protection of course a critical piece there oh absolutely and and you know if we look at all the different projects that are underway under C and C F I mean it's fantastic right I mean there's so much momentum everyone's now also looking at that infrastructure right I mean last year was all about the surface mesh right so I think that we're at that inflection point and now it's going to be a lot about the storage and protecting that storage if you look at Project Valero right so project Valero wasn't as an open source project under C and C F right being driven by the work that was done by the the you know the the the active form enormous hefty oh right so I got Joe Bereta right you got Greg Milwaukee and the work that they done in the starter house arc well now WMC in specificity of the data protection team is working and contributing hand in hand with the vmware team on velaro and i think you'll see that resonate through the future of tansu and pacific as we go forward great let's connect the dots now between what we're doing is the CMC F cube con show and now we've got AWS reinvented coming up so Amazon might now let us use the word multi-cloud that that context there but absolutely that was the conversation at many of the other shows this year is you know hybrid cloud multi-cloud how customers get their arms around all these environments so you know help us understand how this story that we were just talking about for cloud native environment fits into the broader kind of public cloud discussion oh absolutely so you I think one of the key aspects to that is around consistency right so being able from a data protection perspective be able to protect all that valuable data that you have whether it's in premises where it's in cloud with its multi cloud or hybrid and you want to be able to protect that holistically using the same capability you have from your premises base into or out of or within cloud all right so I want to be able to within AWS be able to protect my data from region to region right so we've got a great offering for VMware cloud on AWS it allows you to protect into and within the cloud itself so you can protect in and extend out to the cloud yeah definitely probably one of the most interesting partnerships I think the industry's been watching the last two years is you know VMware and AWS now you know the dominant virtualization you know in your data center environment and you know the leader in public clouds so looking forward to hearing some proof points at the conference and he gives a little bit of hint as to what we'll be seeing in hearing about at the show well I think you'll hear a lot about that consistency with regards to you know observability orchestration automation automation becomes so key that you take your workflows for data protection from premises to the cloud and having that consistency I think you'll also see some pretty pretty significant numbers coming forth with regards to how much data is being protected in in AWS ok definitely looking forward to that always love looking forward to the customers all right Nelson I want to give you the last word what else should we be looking for your team kind of end of 2019 it going into 2020 well you know I think it all starts with cloud and multi clock all right that's our core focus that's what we're driven to I think you'll see innovation especially in the cloud native space that we have I think you will see further innovation in in the in the cybersecurity in the cyber recovery space around data protection so I think those are really key elements that that you'll see more from yeah absolutely super important discussions around data around security and everything there Nelson thank you so much for joining us here in the cube sue thank you all right be sure to check out silicon angle for exclusive content leading up to and after AWS reinvent of course and check out the cube net if you're not at the table if you are at the show come to the center of the show floor at the Venetian inside the Sands Convention Center you can find myself Dave Volante John Ferrier and our whole team there for three days water wall coverage for our last big show of the year and I'm Stu minimun thank you for watching the Q

>> Live from Las Vegas. It's The Cube. Covering Dell Technologies World 2019. Brought to you by Dell Technologies and it's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to Las Vegas, here at the Sands Convention Center at Dell Technologies World 2019. I'm Stu Miniman, my cohost here is David Vellante. Two sets, five hosts, three days, wall to wall coverage. All of the action for Dell Technologies, all the component pieces. Happy to welcome back to the program Ashley Gorakhpurwalla, who's the president of the server and infrastructure services at Dell EMC. Ashley, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thanks for having me. >> Good to see you. >> Alright, so we actually had Sam Grocott on and we were talking about all the product lines. And he said he's the father of power going across the line. He did admit that the power line goes back to PowerEdge, which, of course, is your baby. >> That's right. >> Give us the update, lots of discussion at the keynote. Always change in your world, so give us the latest and greatest. >> Sure, we're about 25 years old now. So PowerEdge has lived on for quite a while. We've got to be over 30 million servers out there by now. So we had a really good Dell Technology World so far. More to come, but some of the lists, real quick, of announcements that we've had and we can talk a little bit more about them. In servers, we actually went a little bit early from Dell Technology World and lined up with Intel to launch Cascade Lake, bringing Optane into server class memory. I think the industry's been waiting for it. We're ready to deliver now. And so that was earlier this month. We've put quite a bit of advancements and enhancements in our open manage enterprise and in securing the platforms. We also this week talked about a PowerEdge that's not called a PowerEdge. So we call it the DSS 8440, and really a capstone product to our AI ML portfolio. So today we already support one, two, three, four accelerators per server. Now we can go up to 10. We can support the latest Nvidia B100 tensor core GPUs, and it's really a unique system within the industry. That's going to help customers scale their training loads further and further, faster performance, more mips, very, very intense box, but one that's going to be, I think, well received within the marketplace. >> Did you say bits? >> I said Mips. >> I like that term,. >> So actually, we've got a lot of pieces that your solutions fit, but you mentioned one item, that I wonder if you could just explain to our audience the importance of SEM, is something that how does that impact solutions, the applications. It's something that a lot of times get lost in the whole general storage discussion. So maybe explain the importance of SEM in the marketplace today. >> Sure. So it's a game changer, it really will be, but it'll have to go, in our mind, through the technology adoption curve that a game changer deserves. So it's been a long time coming. We've been working on it, the industry's been working on it. Intel has been working on it for more than a decade. And if you think through it, we see customers using it in two different ways. In memory mode, expanding the capacity within nodes to levels that you can't reach with DRAM today at almost DRAM-like levels and performance, is something that a lot of customers already have models for. They can think through TCO, they can think through their performance characteristics, and it really becomes something they can consider to enhance their portfolio today, at mode, a little bit different. As we think through software from the OS level: kernel, hypervisor, application, cache, log, database, all these levels, we're going to have software that has to catch up and allow this to be the game changer it is. But already, I'll tell you the demand for systems that we're providing customers to begin their evaluations, they proof of concepts, their software development has actually doubled what we thought it would be, and we were pretty ambitious. So I think the demand is there, and we're going to see that adoption curve when the software catches up. >> And any specific use cases you're seeing early on? >> Well like I said, memory mode, I think people can get their heads around already, is are they performance, or are they capacity bound by DRAM. Start to do the economics, does it make sense. At mode, caching for sure, putting log, changing kind of the structure of how you do logs, and database is really going to be the killer app when we get there. Across the different vendors already we've seen pretty significant increases in performance, and we're early still. But I think there's a few things that our customers want to get through, and we're trying to help them with. If you have persistence in the system, you have a new level of something you have to secure, and so we're spending a lot of time with our customers helping them develop technology methodologies to say wait a minute, information, I turned the machine off and there's still information besides the hard drive or the SSD. Also can I trust the data even though it's persistent? Or do I have to have storage services at that level that help me with things like replication or snapshot or archive. So we've got a long way to go, but we're really, we believe this is a game changer, and we're developing towards that. >> And cost-wise you're sayin' slightly more expensive than DRAM. >> Probably a little bit more than slightly. >> Yeah, okay, more expensive than DRAM, and relative to flash, obviously more expensive than flash, but much higher performance, right? >> Much higher performance, and so it's just a modeling exercise, but it'll reach levels we haven't had before. And then from a software developer point of view as you go forward, you can really think about scale out systems differently. If your application was bound by capacity of DRAM or memory, this changes it quite a bit. >> So you're talking about new programming model, essentially right, that's why it's going to take some time, but you would expect maybe uptake in financial services early on. Is that fair, Or not necessarily? Healthcare? >> All solid verticals. I think it's going to be where enhancement or performance can, you know, if you pay three, four, five x the cost, but you get three, four, or five x the capability, or even less, you have to think about it, but there's some applications where latency, where performance of the database are so sensitive, and such the bottleneck today, that it's well worth it. >> When you look at the innovation pie that's going on in servers, how much is architecture, hardware architecture, versus sort of software and management? Can you sort of, I know it's a sort of general question, but give us a sense. >> Sure, I think it's interesting, is we are investing as we go forward, I think into a brand new era. So I mentioned earlier we made it to 25 years old, what's going to happen over the next 25 years. So I think most of the architectures that we develop today are highly, highly optimized for bringing data into a processor, calculating, storing. And we have very balanced, efficient, high-performance systems for that today. What are we doing going forward? Well, we're not necessarily bringing the data, describing the rules, called software, and then getting the answers anymore, right? Now what we want to do in a lot of situations, we want to bring the data, which is the most valuable asset, we actually kind of know the answers already. We want it to calculate rules for us, and that's the output. That's a different architecture. That's a different way of computing, and that's why you're seeing these heterogeneous architectures starting to form, accelerators, a lot of technology going, and innovation, and venture capital, and talent going towards really building that new model going forward for the next two decades. >> Okay, actually we've had a lot about cloud this week. When I looked at many of the solutions underneath, I kept hearing the same answer. VxRail, VxRail, I've talked to some of the team, there is more than just VxRail and some of these solutions. Sammon looked at some of the other pieces, but VxRail has been a rocket ship for the last couple of years, and of course, you know, the servers underneath driving a lot of that. Can you talk about how that plays into your portfolio and some of the architectural discussion we were seeing. How does that bleed into the HCI and hyper cloud discussions? >> Sure, so if you think of the journey we're on, 10 years ago perhaps, maybe even more recently than that, customers really were making two different choices. As a matter of fact, you guys know as well. I was organized into two different organizations. One to deal with hyper-scale, and one to deal with enterprise capability, and customers can see that. They want to be able to operate in both domains, but even we were organized differently. And if you go maybe five years ago when people started talking about software defined and HCI we finally had a mechanism to say you can build scale out of architectures. We can automate this capability for you. You don't have to actually spend all your opexs, you administration, your talent, and your time, just keeping the infrastructure up and running. And so people broke out of IT by project by Gantt chart, and into flexible architectures, right. Next thing they said is but we still aren't really operating. We're operating in silos of very flexible architecture here in my data center, very flexible architecture in the colo, very flexible architecture in software defined or SAS or cloud. How do I bring it together? So we believe there's a consistency of platform and infrastructure that allows us to move to a consistency of operations. VxRail offers that today, because we uniquely can integrate with VMWare and V Cloud Foundation, to build where now we can take care of the automation, the lifecycle management of the hardware. VMWare together integrated now can take care of the lifecycle of the software stack, all the way up to the IAS layer or beyond, and now we have the ability to say you can look upwards, you can develop, you can build on that, and even more so, if you want to then stitch that together, and have that be the control plane, you can now build that out to other native public clouds, now you have the hybrid cloud. We can actually get there, we can actually organize around it, build it. I mean it's a breakthrough for our customers. And then add on that, some customers have come back to us and said, you have the expertise to do all this for us, can I just consume it? I don't actually need to control it. And in that case we can offer it as a service, and we previewed that as Project Dimension last year, and now the teams are really happy to bring it to fruition all the way to beta with customers today, and really give customers kind of that choice. >> So what's behind that? I mean you've got a team of people sort of monitoring everything, obviously a lot of automation. What's the customer conversation like? I mean it's the early days, but what do they want to know about, do they always just want to say hey you take care of it? Or do they want to peel the layers and say okay, I want to peek behind the curtain before I sign up for this. >> Yeah, so on the platform side, customers want to know how does the integration work. Really where do I have to spend time, energy? Can I really live at this IAS layer, can I live at the PAS layer with pivotal, can I live above that? How do my workflows get managed? And when you say, we're kind of in the environment and the methodologies you already use today with V Center and V Motion and PKS. Then I think you see a light bulb go off of okay, I can really lead the administration to the machines, and the automation. Then the customer who's interested in moving everything maybe to a consumption model, then they have the next question which is can I have consistency not only of infrastructure operation, but of consumption? And that's where as a service offering, really starts to highlight the fact that we can meet you on your journey wherever you are. Some customers aren't ready for that, some are just right there saying that's really the model I want to move to for digital transformation. >> Okay, you got roughly a 20 billion dollar business growing at almost 20 percent a year, so pretty good year last year. Give us the update on your business, why are you being so successful, and I got a follow up question on component, so the supply with. >> Okay sure. So we did have a pretty good year last year. We don't break out servers, but servers are networking as you said, but about 20 billion dollars growing at 28 percent. Why? Well I think we have one of the most capable portfolios of infrastructure. We're uniquely trying to make sure that we are operating within the Dell Technologies portfolio. And so most customers, Dave, have not come to us and said you know what I'd like to do, I'd like to have like 10 more of you guys come meet with me and talk to me about a portion of my business. They said why can't you come and provide all of my needs? But I don't want to compromise. I don't want to have one best of class, and then have to compromise across my other needs. So really building kind of number one all in one place, is that promise that you don't have to compromise. Really it's changed the dynamic with a lot of customers being able to say this is my essential IT infrastructure provider. They have what I need. So that's helped quite a bit. The nature of our business I think is that we are operating from the smallest customer, you need one, all the way up to customers who need a million servers, and we're able to operate in a consistent PowerEdge tenent across all of that space. Then the, I think, and you didn't mention it, but in hyper converged, we're seeing growth rates that kind of put the server business to shame, with we were 65 percent in Q4 in an industry that's growing 40 percent that's on fire. It's a new business model, it's still emerging, but customers, the demand for hyper converged continues to go forward, because that operating model, simplicity, elastic, scale out, automated, is extremely powerful. >> And component supply right now, component pricing, is a tail wind for you. For years it's been a head wind. Is that right, it's flipped? Or not so much >> Certainly, yeah certainly the last two years has been sort of an unprecedented rise in some of our commodities in terms of cost. We're seeing that be deflationary or stable at this point, so it's really changed a little bit of the dynamic of how customers were operating within their own budgets. So now I think we're more in what we're used to in the beginning 23 years as we go forward. >> So actually, last thing, you talked about you used to have kind of a hyper-scale business. Just give us the update. I saw a quote out there that Dell puts more gear out there in hyper-scale environments, than anyone. Can you just give us a little context as to what that means? >> Sure, you know as we go forward, I think we've seen others say that they don't operate in certain businesses, they don't want to be in tier one, and you won't hear that from us. I think where we can add value, and we have incredible assets in terms of engineering, modular data center capability, capability at the edge, real assets like software supply chain delivery, across the board. We want to be able to help customers build their infrastructures. And in the service provider community, I think we've already built up relationships, credibility, and technology, to help them compete. Our standard is if you do business with us, we want you to win in your segment. We want you to transform faster than your competition, and we think we can do that for people, and I think we continue to see quite a bit of success in the service provider's space. >> Well really appreciate the updates, and congratulations on all of the progress you've made Ashley. >> Thank you, great job thanks for having me guys. >> Alright, for Dave Vellante, I'm Stu Miniman, gettin' towards the end of day two, three days wall to wall coverage. Thank you as always for watching The Cube.

>> Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE! Covering AWS re:Invent 2018. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services, Intel, and their ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back everybody, Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're at AWS re:Invent 2018 at the Sands Convention Center and all over Vegas. I don't know how many people are here. We haven't gotten the official word. 60,000, 70,000, I don't know. There's a lot of people. We're excited to have our next guest, but before we get in, happy to be joined by Lauren Cooney. Lauren, great to see you, as always. >> Great to see you, as well. >> You know, one of my favorite things about doing Cube interviews is we learn about new industries that we didn't even know about. So, while we're here talking about IT, it's really about the application of IT that I think is really more interesting, more fun, and a great learning experience. So, we're really excited to have our next guest on. He is Kevin Smith, the director of MIS for Transcore. Kevin, great to see you. >> Hello. >> And many time Cube alumni, Sazzala Reddy. He is the CTO and co founder of Datrium. Sazzala, great to see you. >> Happy to be here. >> So, Kevin before we get into it, tells us a little about Transcore. What are you guys all about? >> Basically, we are the leading toll authority for kind of of Continental United States and we are trying to expand that throughout the world. We do the whole engineer all the way through manufacturing of toll systems for vehicles and cars throughout the U.S. So, the little stickers in you car all the way up to the readers that read them. They're coming through my place some how or some other. >> So, everything from the reader in the car-- >> Yup, the little sticker tag that sticks in your window or suction cups in. Wherever you are, yes you may hate us, but I'm not the one collecting the tolls. (laughs) >> I don't like it when you miss the picture. >> Well, let's input some design here. (laughs) >> Trust me, I've tried. (laughs) >> But then the huge back in process to pull that up, get it into the system, billing systems. >> Yeah, all integrated. Yep. >> And how big is the company? How long has it been around? >> We were acquired by Roper. We've been many divisions, but Los Alamos was technically, founding fathers 1954. >> 1954, so you've been around a long time >> Oh yeah, yes. They started with cows. >> RFID's on cows? >> Yes, tracking cows in the pastures of New Mexico. (laughs) >> With the little tags in their ears I imagine. Alright, great. We can talk about traffic probably all day long, but that's not why were here. That's not your day job you're not out there with the little RFID scanner. >> Not anymore, thank God. >> Let's talk about some of the challenges 'cause you know, obviously, the toll business has been around for a long time. But the automation of tolls has really changed a lot over the last five years. You probably know better than me from somebody in the booth taking my money and giving me a receipt to some places it's almost exclusively electronic. So, how's that business grown, and what have been some of the accompanying challenges have you seen that been grown? >> Part of the performance issues we were running into was the quantity. Because the man is gone from the booth, we have to produce more tags that become more readable. So, that creates more back in work, more transactions. And, in the long run, producing more tags. You know, we've gone to millions and millions of tags being produced, in a quarter, to where it was just hundreds of thousands. So, with that requires scalability that we can grow with our systems and our systems we had just wasn't doing it. >> So, you got the manufacturing of the tags as well, I didn't even think of the manufac- you got to make them in the first place, too. >> That is our bread and butter. Manufacturing those tags and the millions of millions of transactions that we test, because we have to test every tag that goes out the door. Every tag gets tested. >> How far away do they work, on those readers? I'm just curious. >> It depends on your speed. We've tested up to 200 miles an hour. And I think it's, like, 40-50 feet? So, as long as you're going under 200 miles an hour, we can get ya. >> Okay, so, how did you meet Sazzala in Datrium? How did that come about? >> We went looking for a product that could give us a one stop solution. We wanted something that was basically, I wanted to get out of the storage business, I wanted to get out of the management business. I didn't want to be having to worry about all these different vendors, all these different solutions. And Datrium was able to provide that. Compared to some of the other products that we were looking at, we did test with other products, and Datrium came out on top. They gave us the total package. >> Sazzala, when you looked at this oppurtunity, what did you see? Anything unique and different? What were some of the challenges that you tried to figure out how to help Kevin? >> So, what we are finding is that more and more companies, every company is a software company, every company is a data company, right? Every body wants to move faster. Everybody wants to things faster. I can't wait for my movie to start in two seconds. I'm like, Why is it taking two seconds? So, everybody wants things faster. We live in this instant economy where everything needs to be either you transform or you die. So, how do we make that transition into the speed? How do you build your data center, whatever your doing, to match that speed of innovation? Any system you're going to deploy in a data center, has to be not in the way. It has to be less management, less overhead. Look at Amazon, very successful because there is less to manage. And, you mostly manage your applications. That's what the business moral is going to be going forward. That's why people like the Cloud. Why does CIO like the Cloud? Not because it's cooler, or whatever, but because it makes things faster. It's expensive, yeah, but it makes things faster in some ways. >> Go ahead. >> I was going to say, on issue we ran into and we came to him with was our CAD designers. 'Cause we designed the product. And, the rendering was just dragging on our old systems. And, we went from two to three minutes rendering to seconds rendering new graphics. And, so, before they were like I'm not going to save it yet, I'm not going to re-render it. Now, they're re-rendering every time they're making a change. It helps in performance, it helps the application, and it helps increase the productivity of my CAD designers. >> Right. I was going to say, it was probably the customer service pretty significant, as well, so they can get the version that they want. >> Definitely, definitely. And, you know, the nice thing is is Datrium allowed us to scale. We couldn't go out and just Okay, revamp everything. You got to do baby steps. And Datrium gave us that scaleabilty, to where I could add anything from 1 to 128 nodes. You know, I was able to increase performance by just adding a server node, or increase the rights by adding a data node. That's the flexibilty that I needed from a vendor. >> So, when you said that Datrium had the whole package, you looked at some other solutions out there. When you were trying to find the whole package at the beginning of the process, what were the key attributes that you said I would love to get all these from one place? >> I was looking for performance and scale. Which I got. I was looking for back-up. God, I wanted to get out of the back-up business. I was tired of tapes, I was tired of third-party solutions. >> Tire of tapes? (laughs) >> Trust me. Shh, don't tell the tape vendors here. >> Tape is good, if you have the right application. >> Security, I stay awake at night. I lead our security teams. I stay awake worrying about Is my data protected? You know, with their encryption, that gave me that whole protection. And the last thing was DR. DR is adorned in every IT manager, every IT director, every, you know, CTO. And, with their whole Cloud shift, that DR? What DR, it's done. It just happens. And those four things is kind of what led us to finding Datrium. 'Cause some of them gave us one or two, but not everyone could give us all four of the options that we were looking for. >> What I love about the story is those are kind of concrete savings and doing your job easier. What your excited about is enabling your CAD designer, your kind of proactive sales process, your proactive design, your proactive innovation to actually move faster. That's not a cost saving mechanism. That's really a transformational, kind of positive revenue, side of the tale that I don't think is told enough. People focus on the cost savings and execution. That's not what it's about. It's really about innovating and growing your business faster. Do you think? >> Oh no, our ROI, that we calculated in, was just on hardware. Just on my cost savings that I could put a penny to. The time, it's so great. I mean, my CAD designers producing product faster, my developers are asking for more VMs. For me to spin up because the speed is so much faster. We're used to being Oh, don't touch it. I got this guy tuned exactly where I want it. We got the memory. But now, they're asking for more and more, and it's my in users, who are really the engineers, my manufacturing people, they're wanting more and more out of the product and Datirum is delivering. I don't go to dashboard and look to try and figure out how to tweak it anymore. I don't have any complaints. And, if I don't have any complaints, were doing something right. >> That's a good thing. >> So, it just works? >> Oh, it was beyond just works. >> Literally. >> Trust me, I was ready when we bought product to bring in a whole team and I was like, Oh, I'm going to have to hire all these people. And the guy came in and he goes, Okay, turn it on. Okay we're done. I was like, Nu-uh. He goes, Oh yeah, you have to plug that cord in back there. I was like, Wow. 'Cause, you know, usually it's-- >> I'm looking at a number right now, and it is 617% three year ROI. >> It's across many customers (mumbles) >> I totally believe you with what-- >> So we are aiming for a U.S. designer came and asked me one day, What should I aim for as a design principle? I said, We should aim for zero UI. That's what we should do. It should be transparent, it should just work. That's what we really aim for. I'm not saying we have zero UI today, but that's our goal. >> It's good to have goals. >> Let's just make it work automatically, right? That's kind of the goal. >> Well, and that was one thing, we wanted something integrated, so we didn't have to go looking. And, that's one thing I tell the engineers all the time. I go into the UI just to kind of see how cool the systems running. You know, because there is no issues. It just works. Everything's integrated, I don't have to go in and click and click and click and click to get through stuff. It just works and integrates well. We're a big Vmware shop, big Dell server shop. All of that, one-stop shop. I was telling Sazzala, you know, it's great when I get the e-mail that there's a problem with my Datrium system before my help desk is getting the notification. I can't buy that service. >> So, Kevin, there's a lot of peers that will be watching this show. Peers of you. Having gone through this process and now you are on the other side and you're on to some new things, in terms of innovation, what would you share with a peer whose trying to sort some of this out? It's a confusing landscape. There's so many options, and you got to do your day job, too. Besides, putting out new technology. What would you share with a peer if you're sitting down over a beverage on a Friday afternoon? >> You know, I would talk to them about having that capability, really a performance scale. Being able to not worry about controllers, not worrying about what SSDs you got to put into something to make it work. Pop 'em in. SSDs are cheap nowadays. Pop 'em in. It increases your reads. Going back to the whole no more third-party solutions for back-ups. Every SIS admin, every manager knows, back-ups are only good for restores. That's the only reason you do a back-up, is 'cause you got to do that restore. And, it becomes invisible. It's all running in the background. I don't even think about it anymore. My old systems, we still think about. That aren't on the Datrium product yet, but all our production (scoffs) When I'm backing up every hour, and my RTO almost becomes zero if something happens, you can't ask for that. That's critical, I think, for every manager, every director, even the SIS admins. No one wants to really think about back-ups. And, when you're comparing your products, take a look at that. How quick can you get something back up when that hard drive went out, you know? That's critical. And, of course, DR is, you know, everyone needs that checkbox checked for recovering. It just comes right away, with that. >> We've run out of time. Going to ask you the big question. Do you sleep better? >> Oh, much better. (laughs) Easily now. Yes. Now I get to worry about other things. Like keeping my CFO happy about something else. >> And, I've got a list of people we need to introduce to you. Definitely. >> Fortunately, you always move through your next point of failure. Once you fix one spot. Watch Lucy check out the chocolate-- >> Hey, but if I can have this one off my plate, that's one better for me. >> Well, Kevin, thanks a lot for telling your story. It's a really impressive story And, I'll think of you as I go across a Dumbarton Bridge some time. >> Think about that, yes! >> Absolutely. >> Thank you for having me. >> Sazzala, great to see you, as always. Lauren, lots of fun. I'm Jeff Frick, you're watching theCube. We're at AWS re:Invent 2018. Thanks for watching. (electronic music)