>>Yeah. Hello and welcome to the Cubes Presentation of Women in text. Global event Celebrating International Women's Day I'm John for a host of the Cube were with Sally E. Senior Policy Advisor Global Foundation for Cyber Studies and Research. Sally, great to see you. Thanks for coming on the cue for International Women's Day. Appreciate it. >>Pleasure, John. Great speech again. >>Love your title. Global Foundation for Cyber Studies. Um, global is a big part of the theme this year. Uh, cyber studies. We're seeing a lot of cyber activity all around the world, networks, communities coming together, the role of data. I mean, everything is touching our lives. There are no boundaries anymore. What does it all mean? There's so much to talk about your in the middle of it before we get into it. Tell us about your career and your history. How you got interested in tech and what you're working on. >>Absolutely. I love it. Kind of this age of convergence coming together right now, isn't it? That's how I would describe it. And that's kind of a bit like my career. I think in many ways as well. So for the audience, really great to be here and share about that today, and I kind of say, three main palace, so one would be emergent technologies. So, you know, I started off right through from coding to advisory to CTO type roles as well also change management. And now I'm more advisors right across from a I to five G to to Iot and security, for example as well. Also passionate about education checking education for me. They always go hand in hand, some a professor at a number of universities and in my non for profit, we really do a lot of outreach around educational opportunities as well. And that third pillar opponent hinted at it already will be social impact. So really passionate about how we can use tech as a force for good things around sustainability right at the heart of that, but also around diversity equity and inclusion. So we do a lot of pro project your locally and globally around kind of reframing what a tech career looks like, giving people more democratised access. Those tech opportunities outside of that a bit like yourself, you know, podcast host and writer and speaker and things as well, so very much going to building that community around key tech topics. >>Well, folks watching should check it out on Twitter. She's that great content you mentioned Mobile World Congress. Before we get on camera, you mentioned convergence. I mean, we're at a time now. I got to ask you while I got you here before we get into the whole schools and career tech thing, we've seen this movie before, but never at this scale. The convergence and the confluence of education and scale of cloud computing, the ability to level up and get, um, I won't say democratised. That's kind of overused. But I'm just talking about like with cloud computing could be educated and in market with a job instantly. Um, the barriers just seem to be moving away because of the the openings and the roles are changing. So, more than ever, this whole new tech scene comes together in a way. Can you share your thoughts and vision because to me, we're seeing this happening at such a scale unprecedented in my career? >>It is. And that's one of those words that the part had been overused, unprecedented, but right now it really, really is. It's not just a speed of change. I think it's a scale of change as well. You know, I think previously we've talked about disciplines in silos to a certain extent. Haven't we know in terms of like, an AI special is, um or five g one or other disciplines as well? But really, now that convergence about what one tech enables another, it really is that smart technology coming together for more and more different use cases, but that residents around how important education is alongside that alongside process alongside culture and shared values as well it really is. It's kind of holistic integration of everything that matters at the moment. And it's evolving business models as well. You know, shared values rights centre stage around that MWC just come back from that, And the key topics there weren't just by G, it was the importance of ecosystem collaboration. For example, there are less tracks that were isolated on one technology. It was more this conflation of these different technologies coming together and what we can achieve from that from business but also for society so really exciting focus areas now things that maybe once or a few years ago, more than periphery. They're now absolutely centre stage. So it's good to see that progress in that area. And I love to advocate around that. >>And the education piece is so important, and we always stay here in Cuba. It's a data problem, right? Everything's a data problem when you look at schools and education is structured and unstructured data kind of our our systems right, So structured as schools, institutions, those kinds of career paths or education pathways. And then you haven't structured freeform communities, seeing a lot more education going on within groups. Um, off structured environments like schools, Can you and you do a lot with schools? Can you share more how you're doing? Um uh, work with schools specifically on the structured side to get girls into careers faster and tech? And then can you also comment on the other side? What's going on in the communities because it's it's kind of going on in parallel, but they're not mutually exclusive. >>No, absolutely community, absolutely key word that I love that, and I think when we're talking about diversity and technology, it's not just what we're doing now with what we're looking at is looking ahead, but also looking at future pipeline as well. So for me, I use this express a little bit. But change the narrative. That's what springs to mind for me when we're talking about that, and particularly for girls going into technology but also more broadly, diversity of experience. More broadly, we do have these drop offs, so UK is one example, but it is really representative of the global trends that we're seeing. Now. We get a drop off of girls in particular, taking ice subjects at GCSE level so kind of that subject choice choice at 12 to 14, that kind of area. We get the same thing at a level that's equivalent of 16 to 18 and then even safer university or even apprenticeships, whichever both equally valid. But even if people are taking those types of skills, they're not then choosing to apply them in their careers. So we're seeing these kind of three pillars where we need to intervene earlier. So for me, the more that we can do things you know from dedicated educational offers, but equally partnering with tech companies to do outreach around this area. We need to go in younger and younger is so important to address that. Why? Why are people thinking they can't? Why is his career not for me, for example, so addressing that is huge. And that's one of the things we do with my nonprofit that's called aspirational futures. We go into schools and two universities, but equally do things with older adults and re Skilling and up Skilling as well. Because again, we can't leave that behind either. There's something for all different kind of age groups and backgrounds here, but specifically, I think, in terms of getting people interested in this career, curiosity matters. You know, I think it's an underrated skills. So it's changing the narrative again. And what the tech career actually is, what skills are valid? You know, I mentioned, I have a coding background as a starter. But not all tech careers involve coding, particularly the rise of low code or no code, for example as well. So really valued skill. But so many other skills are valid as well, you know, creativity or emotional intelligence problem solving skills. So for me, I like to drive forward. All those skills can make a difference as an individual, as a team, so your you know your tech career. All those skills are valid and you can make a huge difference. And I also think, you know, just kind of really bringing to the fore what different types of projects you can be involved in in tech as well. And I found really resonating when you can talk about tech for good projects and show how you're making a difference about some of those big challenges. Um, that's kind of really kind of resonating responsible people as well. So again, the more we can show tangible projects where you can make a difference and the whole range of skills that are involved in that it really helps people to think differently and gain that skills confidence. So it's like, >>Well, that's awesome insight. I want to just double click on that for a second, because one the drop off. Can you just repeat the ages where you see the drop off with the drop offs are >>absolutely yeah, no problem, John. So it's kind of when you're making your first choices around your first kind of qualifications. Between that 12 to 14 age group, 16 to 18 and then 18 to 21 I think we've really got to tackle that So again the earlier we can go in the better and again supporting people within organisations as well. So I do a lot of work like internally, with organisations as well people looking to up skill and re skill. You mentioned about data and the importance of data literacy earlier on in the conversation as well. For example, going into organisations and really helping to support people in all roles, not just tech facing roles develop that skills, confidence as well. So for me it's access to skills really bringing forward the difference. You can make that holistic range of skills that makes a difference, but also the confidence to apply them as well. You know, we talk about agility, of organisations, a lot areas, one of those kind of words in the last 12 months. But maybe we don't talk about personal agility and team agility as well. So I kind of talked about it. This little toolbox, if we can give people more and more things to draw from it, the only constant is this rate of change. If you've got more things in your armoury to cope with that and be an agile to that. It takes that fear away about what happens next because you feel you've got more skills to dip into it and to apply. So for me, it's that that confidence, not just the access to the skills >>and the other thing, too, I thought was insightful. I want to just reiterate and bring to the surface again as skills, right? So you don't have to be a coder. And I see I have two daughters just with my family. Yeah, I do python. They kind of put their toe in the water cause it's cool. Maybe that's a path, and they kind of don't like, maybe get into it. But it's not about coding anymore because you said low code, no code. Certainly. Maybe AI writes the code. We all see that happening. It's problem solving. It's you could be in health care and you could be nerd native, as we say, as on some of the other interviews of that year at the problem, solving the aperture of skills is much broader now. Can >>you share more than >>more than because with your with your programme and your nonprofit, I know you're in the middle of it, and this is important to get that out there. >>Absolutely so skills. You know, I think we need to change the focus on what skills make a difference if you see what I mean. I think you're absolutely right. There's some misconceptions about, you know, you want to go into tech, you need to be a coda. And you're right with the upscale around low Skilling. Sorry, Low code and the code opportunities. Um, I think the niches around being a specialist. Koda. We're gonna get more roles in that area, but in other areas, we need to look at different skills gap. So I'm advising people to look at where the gaps are now. So cyber security is a key example of that testing architecture. Those gaps are getting bigger. Their amazing skills, opportunities. They're so focused on a particular discipline. But it's all those skills that surround that that make a difference as well. So as I mentioned, you know, e Q creativity, communication skills, because it's not just about having the skills to build the future, knew that imagination to refocus about what that could even be. You know, that was one of the MWC 20 to refrain, reimagine and I love to kind of galvanise that spirit and people that you can be part of that, you know, wherever you are now. And I actually run a little series called 365, and you mentioned something right at the start of our conversation about International Women's Day being such an important focus area. But also we need to think about this beyond that as well. So hence that's the title of the series that I run because it's a focus on that every single day of the year. You know, I interviewed people that could be a C suite roles, but equally I've had some amazing interviews with 12 to 14 year olds, even younger, the youngest of the seven year old. He's doing like an amazing project in their kitchen with a three D printer working with local school or a hospice doing something around Ukraine. Another project we're doing at the moment, actually, and it's so resonating it's trying to show people wherever you are now, wherever you want to be, there's somebody relatable that you can make. You can see whatever sector, in whatever age, whatever background, and I think it's to give that inspiration. Hey, you know what I can do that that can be me. So visibility of role models, it really matters. And to really broaden out what role model looks like, you know? >>And then I think people out there you see yourself. I mean, this is what we been >>proven right? >>It's proven I want to get into the aspirational futures thing that you have going on, and I know this is important to you, but also something else you said was, is that there's more jobs open and say cybersecurity than ever before. And you're seeing this trend where all these new roles are emerging because of the tech that weren't around years ago, right? And so we've been having conversations in the Cube saying, Hey, all these roles are new, but also problems are new to these New new problems are surfacing because of the this new environment we're in. So these new roles still have to solve problems, so we need people to solve those problems. This is the future. This is the conversation that people are trying to get zero in on misinformation, cybersecurity, you name it. Society is changing with >>new. You >>have new new problems and new opportunities. Could you share your aspirational future? How you vector into that? >>Yeah, absolutely. And for me it's just again that we're convergence around people in technology and partnership, and that's what we aim to do. We do projects at a very local level, but equally we do them at national and international level as well. And one of our kind of people assume I'm talking pillars a lot, but I like it as a framework. So one of those esteem learning. So putting an equal value on the arts as well as science, technology, engineering, mathematics because I think they are. You know, as I mentioned before, hand that imagination, creativity, curiosity, collaboration, skills. They're equally valid as a different types of tech skills as well. We need an equal value and all of them. I think that's hugely important, important today. I think over the last 5 to 10 years, maybe there's been less of a focus within curriculums on the arts area than the other areas. So for me, putting that equal focus back is hugely important to navigate change, you know, I think that's that's that's absolutely key. So we focus on that area and we do a whole range of tech for good projects, and that's the way we help people to learn, you know, for example, data 90% at the moment of data isn't touched again when it's archived after three months. How can we turn that into a learning opportunity? For example? Some of the projects we use some of this is not going to be used again. We do it in a very safe, secure way, but we use that as one of our training aids, and then we apply them for local projects. We have initiatives from hackathons and ideation right through to very tangible hubs that we've actually built out where people can go, learn up skill and kind of learn through play and experimentation as well. Because again, I think that sometimes under explored that type of value and that freedom to be able to do that. And we also do things, change management skills. We talk about agile learning, agile technology need agile change management as well. So it's a very holistic skills. Look at what you need to navigate that future and have the confidence to apply them. So steam is very much our focus, applying them for tech for good projects and doing that externally, but also within organisations as well. So that very much is shared value approach to good business, but good for society as well. So yes, that this toolbox, that technology I applied earlier we really try and give people that support. To be able to do that, to move forward with confidence and optimism. >>I think adding the aid to stem really for steam is really smart because entrepreneurship or any problem solving creativity is the spark of innovation. >>And that's a super >>important skill. And we've seen it, whether it's startup or in a big company or in society, so super, super insightful. So I got to ask you, as a policy senior policy advisor on cyber studies globally, what are the core issues you're looking at right now? What are you shutting the light on and what's the most important thing you're working on? And then what's the most important thing you're working that people aren't talking about, that people should pay attention to >>Absolutely so. One of my key roles of the foundation is is kind of share of global trust. Essentially, um, and again trust is that one of the key issues of our time? One thing that people are talking about so much that relates with that actually is there's there's research from a group called The Woman. They've been looking at this for about 17 years or so. The research that came out most recently and I've got some original research that kind of support this as well is that for the first time ever, consumers are looking at organisations like tech organisations and other large organisations, in particular the enterprise level, really, as the bastions of trust to a bigger extent than NGOs or even governments. And that's the first time we've seen it at that level. So trust really really matters. It's one of the biggest differentiators of our time, so we're trying to help people. How do you establish trust? How do you build transparency, commitment and accountability, particularly in areas where there's currently confusion, so as one example going back Security zero Trust That phrase is used an awful lot, isn't it? But it's sometimes causing some confusion. Actually, it against what it's trying to deliver if you see what to me. So now I just do something recently with SMB s in particular and there is a confusion that effectively, you know, you could You could buy off the shelf and it's once and done. Um, And then we're sorted for the zero Trust security. And obviously it's not like that. It's an ongoing journey, and there's so many different constituent parts. So there's some things I'm seeing at the moment in the market with there's confusion around around certain language, for example. So again it goes back to backing things up with the technology but also research and awareness so we can see where those skills gaps are. You can see where there's awareness gaps are we can help to fill them. So that's an important part of that particular role bringing the technology in the culture and the education hand in hand together. So it's something I'm really passionate about, and for me sort of related to this, Um, I do a lot of work around S G, um, to the sustainable development goals. In particular, environmental and social governance is something that's becoming much more of a bigger kind of centre stage conversation. I'm an action point in a moment which is fantastic because this is something I've been involved in kind as long as I can remember. So I work directly with organisations like, um Unesco, lots of different professional bodies. It's kind of a huge driver for me. So one thing to kind of look out for that's coming very soon. I'm seeing an issue around around measurement in this area. You know, we're seeing consumers becoming more and more conscious and employees, you know you want to work for by from advocate organisations that have that same value alignment that you have personally and professionally, hugely important. We're seeing some great reports coming out around better e S g measurement. But it can be hard to compare between different organisations, so we are getting more transparency. But it's difficult sometimes to make fare comparisons. Um, so what I'm trying to do a lot of work on at the moment is how you go beyond that transparency to commitment to accountability and that deeper level and that comparability. So I would say kind of to the audience moment, Look out for a bit of a new index. It's going to help people, I think, make those conscious choices make informed choices. So it's something I'm super, super passionate about. I want to try and take that to next level in terms of its actualisation. >>That's awesome. And certainly we'll link to it on our site. All the work you're doing on interviews will put links there as well. We'll make sure we'll follow up on that. Great to have you on. You're such an inspiration. Amazing work, cutting edge work. And I'm I'm super impressed with the cyber studies, and I think this is really important. I have to ask you a final question because you're in the middle of it again with covid and the unfortunate situations we've been living with Covid. And now, obviously with this Ukraine situation that the cyber has been pulled to the front of the agenda and you're seeing a cultural shift. You certainly got Web three. Cyber is now part of everyone's life, and they can see it. They've been seeing it living it. Everything's been pulled forward as a cultural shift happening, okay, and and it's really interesting right now, and I want to get your thoughts because this now people are now aware what cyberwar means cyber security cyber. At home, I have remote work. Cyber has become front and centre or digital. However you want to call it in our lives pulled forward. >>So I'm not even sure in some >>cases, maybe rightfully so, and others. What's your view on this whole cultural cyber being pulled forward? >>It is. It's really, really interesting. And so one of the things I do is I am now ready to a Cyber Insights magazine as well. So we're developing a lot of content pieces around this and lots of things I'm seeing here. So your covid point, I think one of the most interesting things there is around literacy. For example, you remember when we went back to 18 months ago? We're having daily briefings, whether that's from from UK Parliament or the U. S. Equivalent. And different phrases were coming into everyday language driven by the curve or driven by the data. And they're coming into everyday life and people family kitchen table. It was something that hasn't been spoken about before, but suddenly it was driving everyday decision making and what you could and couldn't do. And that's raised awareness. And I think it helped people to ask better questions and to challenge things that they're seeing. And where has that data come from? How has it been presented to have seen that there? I think similarly, where we're having that same understanding and raise of questioning around what we're hearing around cyber as well. You're looking at where that source has come from, and how can we look at that in a different way? So again, I think it's raising that awareness, which is really, really crucial, >>the >>other thing as well around cyber security in particular. And again, I don't think this is talked about as much. When we talk about aspects around inclusion, we talk about diversity equity. Um, I'll see inclusion. I talk about belonging a lot as well. I think there's other aspects around sustainability that Inter relate as well, because when we find, for example, communities that are not included, they tend to be more adversely affected by, for example, climate factors as well. There's an interrelation. They're equally We find that people that haven't got, for example, the same level of cybersecurity protection are also in that same. There's an interrelation across all those elements were not talking about that either. So that's the other thing. I want to kind of bring attention to their again. They aren't separate conversations is a huge crossover between these different conversations and actions that we can do to make a difference. So there's some positive aspects about things that have happened over the last period of time and also some challenges that if we're aware of them, we can work together again, that collaboration piece to be able to overcome them. You know, I've got I've got a book coming out, all for charity called Tech for Good and one of my kind of tag lines. There is around contagion of positive change. Again, let's reframe the language around what's been happening. And let's kind of put that together is something that's far more positive. >>Language is super important, great >>content here. So >>thanks so much for coming. I really appreciate all the great insight and taking the time out of your busy day to to join us here in the Cube. Women in tech Global Event. Thank you so much. >>My absolute pleasure. Thank you. Thank you all for watching. >>Okay. The cubes presentation of women in text. Global event Celebrating International Women's Day. I'm John for a host of the Cube. Thanks for watching

>>from around the globe. It's the >>Cube with digital >>coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 sponsored by Intel, >>AWS and >>our community partners. >>Welcome back to the cubes ongoing coverage of this year's AWS reinvent. You know, normally we'd be in the middle of the San Sands Convention Center. We have two sets and 50,000 of our closest friends. We'd be deking out on cloud. Seems like a long time ago, but the show must go on. And it does. Joe Duffy is here. He's the co founder and CEO of Gloomy, and Justin Fits you is the vice president engineering for Cloud Engineering for snowflake. Welcome, gentlemen. Good to see you. >>It's good to be here, >>Joe. I love what you guys are doing. You know, leading your customers to the cloud and really attacking that I t labor problem that we've dealt with for years and years by playing a role in transforming what I would say is I t ops into cloud ups with programmable infra infrastructure practices. So take >>a >>moment to tell us. Why did you and your co founder start the company how you got it off the ground? People are always interested in how you got it funded. You got a couple of Seattle VCs, Madrona and Tola involved. Any a just got involved. So congrats on that. What's the story of your company? >>Yeah. So my background and my co founder Eric's background. You know, we spent multiple decades at Microsoft just really obsessing over developer platforms and productivity and trying to make you know developers lives as as as as productive as possible. You know, help them harness the power of software >>toe create, >>you know, innovative new applications and really spent time on technologies like Visual Studio and Ahmed. And and, you know, it really struck us that the cloud is changing everything about how we develop software. And yet from our perspective, coming from developer landed had almost changed nothing. You know, most of our customers were still, you know, developing software like they did 15 years ago, where it was a typical enter your application, they'd kind of write the code and then go to their I t team and say, Hey, we need to run this somewhere. Can you provisioned a few virtual machines? Can you prevision You know, maybe a database or two and and And so And then we went and talked Thio, you know, infrastructure teams and found out Hey, you know, folks were really toiling away with tools that air a pale in comparison when it comes to the productivity that we we were accustomed Thio on the developer side. And then frequently we heard from leaders that there were silos between the organizations. They couldn't build things quickly enough. They couldn't move quickly enough in cloud Native and the new public cloud capabilities just really were pushed pushing on that, really, you know. But the most innovative companies we kept hearing were the ones who figured this out, who really figured out how to move faster in the cloud. Companies like Snowflake really are leveraging the cloud toe transform entire businesses. You look at uber lyft Airbnb, these companies that really harnessed the cloud toe not just from a technical productivity standpoint, but really transform the business. Eh? So that was the opportunity that we saw Kalemie was Let's take a step back. We call this cloud engineering. Let's imagine a world where every developers, a cloud developer and infrastructure teams are enabling that new way of building. >>Great. So you mentioned cloud engineering. Now, Justin, you've done a bit a bit of cloud engineering yourself in your day. You know, the Cube has been following Snowflake very closely since it launched really mid last decade. And we've we've covered your novel, architectural approach and your cloud only mantra. Talk about that. And have there been any changes in how you're thinking about cloud adoption and how that's as that's increased and you've seen new use cases emerged. >>Yeah, so I think, you know, obviously Snowflake was was built on the foundation of cloud first, and in fact, cloud Onley are only platform and only infrastructure is is based on the cloud. But, you know, for us, it was absolutely key on. How do you develop a platform and a product that's completely elastic? Lee, scalable on drily, really allows for kind of the paper use and paper consumption model. We didn't really it would be very difficult for us to offer this and Thio offer a product in this way. On def, you start to think about kind of from a cloud engineering perspective. Um, we don't have the typical network engineers. A typical data center engineers that you that you might have seen previously. Instead, we're shifting our model in our what we do include engineering away from kind of an operations model or even devotes model towards the software engineering model. E. I think that's the That's the big shift to cloud engineering is that we're looking to hire and we're building a team of software engineers to build systems and platforms and and tooling Thio have the system self managed as much as possible, and it changes to our infrastructure that we look at any changes in our platform are all through, commits and and deployed via pipelines, as opposed to having Operator's log on and make these changes. And so that's the shift that I think we're seeing. And that's to kind of match the overall stuff like Model of Cloud, first and on and where the product is like just going. >>Like you said in cloud only, Justin, you use Pollux me in your own engineering and also in your product externally. Is that correct? And how so? >>Yeah, we actually use it in, specifically and, um, in our platform, in order to kind of deployed to manage and, uh, just operate a kind of our overall cloud infrastructure. We specifically use it more focused on the good days and and continue ization side of things. But that use cases kind of rapidly expanding across the organization. >>So I'm curious of what do you guys we're seeing in the market place? Joe, you know, thinking about cloud broadly, What's the impact that you're seeing on businesses? Who are the big players that you see out there? Maybe you could talk about some of the differentiation that you've noticed. >>Yeah, I think this notion of plot engineering, you know, even 3.5 years ago when we got started was in its infancy. You know, we definitely saw that. Hey, you know, the world is moving and shifting left, you know, it's just was saying and really, people are looking for new ways to empower developers, but that empowerment has to come with guard rails, right? And so what we're seeing is oftentimes, teams are now modernizing their entire platform infrastructure platform, and they're looking to technologies like kubernetes to do that. But increasingly, you know, aws, Azure gp. You know, when we started, um, there weren't any great managed kubernetes clusters. And now today, fast forward. You know Onley 3.5 years and and many of our customers are using flew me to help them get up and running with the chaos in AWS, for example, you look at a lot of folks transforming on Prem as well again many times, adopting kubernetes is sort of a if they intend to stay on Prem. You know, Thio, at least modernize their approach to application infrastructure delivery. That's where Pollux me really can help. It could be a bridge. Thio hate from on Prem to the public cloud. There's certainly a lot of folks doing great work in the space, you know, I think VM Ware has really kind of emerged as sort of vanguard thought leader in this in this space, especially with, you know, hep dio and now kind of pivotal joining the story. We see other, you know, great companies like hash in court, for we're doing good work in this space. Um, certainly we integrate with a lot of their technologies on you. Combine those with the public cloud providers. There's also a lot of just smaller startups in the space which you know, strikes in my heart. I love I love supporting the startup ecosystem. You know, whether that's for cell or net lif I or server list. You know, really trying to help developers harness more of the cloud. I think that's an emerging trend that we're gonna see accelerating in the coming years. >>Yeah. Thank you. You've mentioned a number of interesting emerging tools companies in the ecosystem. I mean, Justin talked about kubernetes. Are there other tooling that you're using that that might be, you know, some of your customers might like toe to know about. >>Yeah, I think so. So one thing I wanted to actually follow up with what Joe said here is is around kind of the multi cloud nature of what we do is is the tools, like gloomy are critical for us to be able to abstract away specific cloud provider AP ice and such and so given Snowflake operates on all three major public clouds and offers a seamless experience amongst all three of them. We have to have something that abstracts some of that complexity and some of those technical details away. Andi, that's why I kind of blew me, made sense in in this case and has helped us kind of achieved that cloud neutrality piece. Um, in terms of other tools that that you're thinking that we're talking about, I think Bellamy is doing a great job kind of on some of these on some of the kind of that interaction and infrastructure and sensation. But we're looking for tooling to kind of look for the overall workflow automation piece on orchestration. So what sits on top of say, you're using intervals using terra form? You may be using Polonia's well, but what kind of orchestrates all these pieces together? Onda, How do you kind of build workflow automation? And I think there's a lot of companies and technology providers that air starting up in this area to kind of stitch all these pieces together so that you kind of have a seamless kind of work flow across across your infrastructure. >>Got it. So, Joe, I'm kind of curious you talked a little bit about your background at Microsoft, and you're even a TMC where you're helping, you know, people manage Luns. It was a sort of skill set that is not in high demand today. Early. Shouldn't be people really need to transform? I've said that a lot in the queue, but But, you know, maybe talk a little bit about the experiences that you've had in the past that informed the direction that Pollux me is taking and where you see it going specifically. I mean, I've been talking a lot about the next decade of cloud is not gonna be the same as the last decade of the cloud. How did you How do you see it? >>Yeah, I think I recognize a clear trend, you know, in with cloud computing. Uh, you know, back I can't remember 13 years ago, maybe 15 years ago, When, when When the Azure project started. You know Dave Cutler, who actually founded the anti project at Microsoft, Actually, was was one of the first engineers that started Azure. And he called it a cloud operating system. And, you know, I think that vision of hey, the cloud is the new operating system is something that we're still just chipping away at. And that was that was a clear trend, you know, having seen these transformations in the past, you know the shift from, you know, dos to windows from windows to mobile Thio, client server thio now the cloud every step of the way. We always transform the way we build applications. And I think where we're at now is horse, really in the midst of a transition that I think we'll look back. You never know when it's happening right? But you can always look back in hindsight and see that it did happen. And I think the trend that we're going through now with service meshes and just, you know, micro services and service list is really we're building distributed applications. These clouds made of applications, they're distributed applications. And that was the trend that I, I recognized, also recognizes another trend, which is, you know, we spent 30 years building great tools. You know, I d s test frameworks sharing and reuse package managers. We figured out static analysis and how to fix security problems in this in in programming languages that we've got today. Let's not go rebuild all that. Let's leverage that, and and so that's what Eric and I said they want, you know, Let's stand on the shoulders of giants. Let's leverage all this good work that has come before us. Let's just apply that to the infrastructure domain and really try toe smooth things out. Give us a new sort of level playing field to build on. From here is we go forward and I'm excited that Parliament gives us that foundation that we can now build on top of >>Great and Justin, of course, were covered. Aws reinvent you guys. It was kind of your your first platform. It's your largest, the largest component of your business. And I have been saying, Ah lot that, you know the early days of cloud was about infrastructure last 32 throw in some database. But really, there's a new workload that's emerging. And you guys are at the heart of that where people are putting governed data giving access to that data, making it secure, uh, sharing that data across an ecosystem so that new workload is really driving new innovation. I wonder how you see that what you see the next half a decade or decades looking like in terms of innovation? >>Yeah, I think I think it za valid point, which is, um, it's less about infrastructure and more about the services that you're providing with that infrastructure. And what what value are you able to add and So I think that's it, Snowflake. The thing that we're really focused on, which is abstract away, all these tunes and all these knobs and such, and the how much remember you have on a specific and a piece of infrastructure or describes or anything like that. So what's the business value? And how can we present that business value in a uniform way, regardless of kind of the underlying service provider on baby to a different class of business users, someone who wants a low data and just two analysts against that they really don't want to understand what's happening underneath. And I think that's that's where this club engineering piece comes in. Um, and what my team is doing is really focused on How do we abstract away that kind of lower level infrastructure and scalability pieces and allow the application developers to develop this application that is providing business value in a transparent and seamless way and in elastic way such that we can scale up and down we can. We have the ability, obviously, to replicate both within regions and clouds, but also across different clouds. So from a business resiliency and and up time point of view. That's that's something that's been really important. Um, and I think also how do we security is? Becoming is obviously a huge, huge importance, given the classifications type of day that people are putting within our platform. So how are we able Thio ensure that there is a pipeline where developers have reviews and commits of any kind of changes going into the system and their arm's length away, and could be fully audited for various clients and regular regulatory needs? And that's something that kind of this suffer engineering cloud engineering concept has really helped develop and allowed us Thio obviously be successful with various different types of industries. >>Joe, we're almost out of time. I wonder if you could bring us home. I mean, some of the things Justin was talking about I mean, I definitely see a lot of potential disruption coming from the world of developers. Uh, he was talking. He was talking about consumption models different than many of the SAS pricing models. And how do you How do you see it? Developers air kind of the really the new source of innovation. Your final thoughts. >>Yeah. I think we're democratizing access to the cloud for everybody. I think you know it's not just about developers, but it's It's really all engineers of all backgrounds, its developers, its infrastructure engineers, its operations engineers, its security engineers. You know, Justin's mentioning compliance and security. These air really critical elements of how we deliver software into the cloud. So I think you know what you're going to see is you're gonna see a lot of new, compelling experiences built thanks to cloud capabilities. You know, the fact that you've got a I and M l and all these infinitely scalable data services like snowflake and, you know, just an arm's length away that you can use as building blocks in your applications. You know, application developers love that. You know, if we can just empower them to run fast, they will run fast, and we'll build great applications. And infrastructure teams and security engineers will be central to enabling that that new future. I think you also see that you know infrastructure and cloud services will become accessible to an entirely new audience. You know, kids graduating from college, they understand Java script. They understand python now they can really just harness the cloud to build amazing new experiences. So I think we're still, you know, still early days on the transition to the cloud. I know where many years on the journey, but we've got many, many years, you know, in our future. And it's very exciting. >>Well, thank you, guys, Joe and Justin. I really appreciate it. Congratulations on your respective success. I know is Joe said you got a lot more work to do, but I really appreciate you coming on the Cube. >>Awesome. Thank you. You're >>welcome. All right, so we're here covering reinvent 2020. The virtual edition. Keep it right there for more great content. Were unpacking the cloud and looking to the future. You're watching the cube?

(upbeat orchestral music) >> Hello and welcome to this special Cube Conversation. I'm John Furrier, host of the Cube, here in our Palo Alto studios. We're going to across the pond, across the United States, then the pond to Bill Mew, who is the founder of MEW ERA consulting. We're going to talk privacy. We're going to talk about, you know, the challenges with cloud, cloud scale, and also privacy. With the recent report Facebook behaving like digital gangsters, as the report from The Parliament came out. The huge focus on this big-tech data problem around privacy and user rights. So, Bill, welcome, good to see you. Thanks for coming on camera. I know you're in London area, so you're in the UK, so, great to see you. >> Well, it's really great to join you, and I'm glad the technology's allowing us to chat from this great distance. >> Well, we love to bring the conversations, which are very robust on Twitter, obviously, at @furrier, your @billmew. And all our friends Sarbjeet, Tim Crawford, Stu Minimin. The whole set of Cloud influencers, has been really talking a lot, lately, around digital transformation. You know, it's the classic, you know, cliché, oh digital transformation, blah-blah-blah-blah. It's really about Cloud. It's about Cloud scale, but data. But now, as people start to realize, the scale and some of these immediate benefits of DevOps and agile development. In comes the privacy conversation. In comes the, where's the data? Moving data around is expensive. Managing data and privacy is hugely expensive, and there are consequences. And one of the most obvious news stories, just from the past, you know, 24, 48 hours, is The Parliament report that says Facebook has been acting like digital gangsters. Now this puts it on the main stage. Unpack this for us. >> Well, I come from a Cloud background, and I'm not a sort of rabid privacy campaigner, by any stretch of the imagination. I've been passionate supporter of Cloud and worked with UKCloud, who've been almost unique, being a company that took on Amazon, Google, and Microsoft, in the cloud market. And beat them all at their own game. Here, in the UK, we have a procurement framework that the government hosts called, G-Cloud for public sector technology, and UKCloud captured something like 30, 35% of the market with Amazon way down on 12%. So, it was almost a unique instance. I can't think of a single other market anywhere in the world, where these guys are being beaten at their own game. Sort of in the public cloud market, with a very specific niche. And a niche that the cloud focused on, was differentiating themselves around data sovereignty, higher levels of assurance and security, and making sure that the really sensitive government data, be it your tax records, or possibly your criminal record, if you have one, or medical records, or whatever. All this data is kept safe, and it's really, it's been really interesting to see the news recently, and some of the hysteria around privacy. I've seen, as all of us have, the tech revolution of the cloud, and how all this has come to fruition and enabled so much. And now we are seeing the tech backlash, and I think that's at it's full force at the moment. >> One of the trends that we're seeing, and I want to get your thoughts on this, is that, you know, on the one extreme, is users own their own data and you got to see things, like Blockchain, and some interesting progressive solutions around the supply chain of users owning their own data. And then, just the natural trend of Edge Computing, where the data is closest to the, whether it's the people or the devices, you call it the Internet of Things or Edge Computing. It's now becoming part of cloud, and with the global distributed nature of how the cloud is built, the emphasis on regions. So, you see, you know, certain every country has, might have their own characteristics. How is this changing the digital transformation equation? Because, you know, on one hand, you see people saying, look at, you know, you picked the right cloud for the right job. And then the other one saying, no, it should be all vendor procurement decision, not so much a cloud decision. So, there's kind of like two camps going on here. One's saying, let procurement drive the decision. And the other one saying, let the apps or the workloads drive the architecture and cloud decision. Your thoughts on this kind of mega trend of data at the edge, ownership of data, cloud selection. It's kind of a nightmare, kind of confusing. Your thoughts. >> I think, I think we're definitely seeing an acceptance that we're in a multicloud world. I think there are hardly any companies out there that don't have an element of cloud in a number of different places and that. You may have dictated a strategic alignment about one particular cloud vendor, but you're bound to have some legacy stuff, as well. You may well have some SaaS applications. You may have Salesforce or any other things. And, therefore, by almost by default, almost every organization is in some form of a multi-cloud environment, anyway. And they're all ready to accept that as a reality. And as what we've seen is a cloud migration, and people taking various different workloads to the cloud. People have naturally started with the easy stuff. The low-hanging fruit. So, typically, you're taking virtualized workloads to easy the environments like a VMware Cloud or something like that. You're taking new, the sort of Greenfield developments into sort of cloud native environments. And those are the sort of places, where you're really breaking ground with all of this, and this is going to be leaving behind certain legacy applications, which is the sort of, the really difficult stuff that you'll leave till later. And a lot of people have already cracked, much of the easy stuff, the low-hanging fruit, and they're now having to face up to the more difficult stuff. But, I think one of the things you would need to be worried about, here, is that it's not just about a focus on applications and workloads. One of the things you find is that typically you may have a few new applications that you're developing. You may sort of have the odd so change, from time to time. But, typically, the number of applications you use, and the nature of those applications, doesn't actually change enormously. What does change, is the data volume. So, whilst, people are overly focused on, well, which applications are we going to be moving and in which order. And not enough companies are actually thinking really seriously about, well what are we going to do with the data? People have budgets that are either stationary or possibly in decline, and they have data volumes that are going through the roof. And the moment we have Edge, and the moment we have 5G, this is going to come home, to really haunt them. And you'd actually need to have a really sensible data strategy to get ahead of this problem, otherwise, you're going to be facing big ingress and egress charges, because getting data in and out of the cloud isn't cheap. And also, you're going to have integration problems. But on top of that, you have the privacy issue, because a large chunk of that data is going to be sort of personally identified, viable data. It's going to be the type of data covered by GDPR and possibly new regulations, or whatever is coming up next in the US. A lot of the data won't be covered this, because it will be data that isn't privacy sensitive. But, if you don't have a really sensible data strategy, first of all, you're not going to be able to deal with the massive growing volumes of data, which are just going to get worse with 5G and Edge, but, also, you're face real problems with privacy, if suddenly people say, I want this removed, or I want that taken down, or something like that. And you go, whoa, where the heck is it? How do I do that? >> Yeah, where's it stored? On what servers is it on? So, Bill, I got to get your thoughts on this. You mentioned migration tool. In the news today, Google acquired cloud migration platform, Alooma, which has only raise 15 million in funding, shows that Google is trying to catch up. Amazon pelts highly their migration tool for moving off Oracle. So, you're seeing migration is a big part of it. So, I want to get your thoughts on the cloud players. You got Google, nipping at the heels of Azure. Azure nipping at the heels of AWS. And, you got IBM and Oracle kind of in the back falling behind. I wanted to get your thoughts on the top three, and then IBM and Oracle. Do they have a shot? And your thoughts about IBM Think was just last week. Lot of conversations around IBM and the cloud with their, with their cloud private solution. Your thoughts. Amazon, Azure? >> Okay. >> Google, and then, >> I think >> IBM and Oracle. >> I'm going to take this in two different ways. First of all I'm going to say, well, here's what we're seeing in a general market level. And, secondly, I'm going to say, well, what have I seen on the ground? On the ground, maybe I'll start with that. I worked in the UK public sector and we've been out there competing and winning a lot of business, and doing really very well. One of the things that we've seen is that having established a lead in this market at a point we're the people everyone are gunning for, which is strange to be ahead of the big hyperscalers in this market. We've found that Amazon, and certainly Azure, are all over our accounts. We almost never see a competition or any sort of competitive bids from companies like Oracle or IBM. They're just not in the market. We don't see them at all. And, certainly for IBM, in the UK, the finance sector and the public sector are meant to be the main markets they're focused on, and we're not seeing them. We just got to worry about how credible they are in those markets. Now if you look at sort of a global scale. >> Hold on, just to interrupt. We lost you for a quick second. Got a little glitch in the screen on the connectivity. But, did you mention Oracle, I mean, Google? What's Google like out there on the ground, anything? >> Okay. From a global perspective, there's obviously AWS, who are way ahead. You've got Azure, who are a very credible second player, and they got a lot of strength. I mean, they got a foot both in the public cloud, but also in the hybrid cloud. I think, you shouldn't overlook the strength of the Geostack offering. And, also, they've got an enormously strong partner ecosystem, with CSPs and MSPs. There they're going to take a lot of their technology forward. So, I think, they're going to be credible across the space. Google are in an interesting position. I think they're investing heavily. They have deep pockets. They are some distance behind. I'm not seeing them in any competitive bids that we're entering into. So, you got to worry about how much traction they're really getting in the market, but they've certainly got very deep pockets, and you shouldn't dismiss them. The likes of Alibaba, who, you know, they may not be present in this market at the moment, but, again, you can't dismiss them. The companies that you possibly might dismiss as serious cloud players, are maybe Oracle, and IBM, 'cause we're not seeing them in any of the shortlists that we're up against. We're not seeing them in the market. We're not seeing them put in the level of investment, the billions of infrastructure investment that you need to have to keep up in this market. And I actually think IBM are in a very strong position. When I said, earlier, we've moved a lot of low-hanging fruit, and then we're now getting onto difficult stuff. IBM have the services business to help the big companies with the complex migrations and the really challenging stuff. But I think that's where IBM is going to play, and I think they have a very strong role to play there. I just don't seem them as a cloud player. And, maybe we should just be describing them as a services company. >> I want to get your thoughts on, this might be a little bit tangent to the cloud, but it's kind of related, with multi-cloud on the horizon, or actually here, everyone has a lot of different clouds, when you put the connective tissue together for the multi-cloud, you can't help but ignore Cisco and VMware. Both have presence in enterprises. Thoughts around, you know, the network layer, get NSX on VMware, and you got, also, Cisco moving up the stack with their DevNet program, developer program. We're seeing a lot of action going on around the software-defined data center, as it relates to on-premise and multi-cloud. Your thoughts on that market? Can you share any insights there? >> Yeah, I mean, I've come from a company that was hosting possibly the largest VMware Cloud in Europe, and we're very familiar with some of these technologies, and I think VMware has had a very good position in the market. I'm not sure that they are going to be able to sustain that. We're seeing a lot of people who saw the ability to move virtualized workloads to, sort of VMware Cloud environment as a compelling proposition, but that's a one-off shift. And the moment they have the opportunity to go cloud native, they're going to take it off. And I don't see Vm are really holding the control point now, but that you certainly got VMware on all the different platforms, and it's being controlled by the likes of AWS and others, who can sort of assist their customers to get on to whichever environment within their estate that they want. I think Cisco are coming from an interesting position. Where they got some really great security portfolio, and, in fact, we've used a lot of their hardware, but I don't see them actually, again, having a particular control point in the market. >> Talk about, before we get close out here, I want to get your thoughts on what's going on on Twitter. Obviously, you're highly engaging, you're an influencer on Twitter, subject matter expert, great on camera, obviously, here at the Cube remote. What's the sentiment going on around digital transformation? Sarbjeet and the crowd, all talking, Stu Miniman and I, and Dave Vellante and the Cube team, and the whole community has really been chirppin', obviously 'cause IBM Think was last week, around the context of cloud on-premise, digital transformation. What's the general sentiment in the social media channels, that you're hearing. What's the top story? What's the most important story that's being discussed? >> You can't, you can't get away from the whole privacy debacle. I mean, we have seen the tech revolution. We're now seeing the, sort of, tech backlash, where certain companies, who have made big mistakes and many, many mistakes, I mean, Facebook, you can't avoid mentioning them. And, there are others, but Facebook are front and center. I think they have. >> Looks like we lost you little bit there, Bill. Okay, you're back. >> Yup. >> You're back. (Bill speaking faintly) So, the final question, final question for you. So, if Facebook's the digital gangster on social networking, is there a cloud gangster? >> I'm not sure. (John and Bill laugh) I don't want to point any fingers anywhere. (John laughs) I think there are companies that are the particularly muscular in the market and have a particular market position, and you can't avoid looking at Amazon, there. But, I think that there are some, there's going to be an enormous fragmentation and one side, if we're talking typically about a hybrid environment. You're talking about a mixture of public cloud and private cloud on perimeter age and whatever. In the public cloud, it's going to be concentrated down to possibly three players. And, therefore, they're going to have enormous control. Then you look on the other side of the hybrid equation to the private legacy whatever. That's going to be massively fragmented. I mean, I believe it's like IBM, who are going to be doing some of the complex migrations for some of the big organizations, using their massive services army may have a control on some of the big instances, but there's going to be a massively long tail with all sorts of MSPs and CSPs, providing bespoke solutions and value right down the chain. >> Yeah. >> And that's where I think the channel ecosystems come into play. And those companies that are cloud players also have a strong channel ecosystem? That they're going to be the ones that come out at the end of the day. >> I think the ecosystem is right on, great point. Bill, thanks for spending the time joining us here on the Cube Conversation. I'm John Furrier, here in Palo Alto for a conversation with the influencers, experts around cloud, privacy. This is the big deal. What are you doing with all that data coming in? How's it being managed? How's the value being created? This is the digital transformation challenge. It's the Cube Conversation, in Palo Alto. Thanks for watching. (upbeat orchestral music)

(lively classical music) >> Hello everyone, welcome to this special Cube conversation, we are here at the Power Panel Conversation. I'm John Furrier, in Palo Alto, California, theCUBE studies we have remote on the line here, talk about the cloud technology's impact on entrepreneurship and startups and overall ecosystem is Jim Long, who's the CEO of Didja, which is a startup around disrupting digital TV, also has been an investor and a serial entrepreneur, Sarbjeet Johal, who's the in-cloud influencer of strategy and investor out of Berkeley, California, The Batchery, and also Joseph Jacks, CUBE alumni, actually you guys are all CUBE alumni, so great to have you on. Joseph Jacks is the founder and general partner of OSS Capital, Open Source Software Capital, a new fund that's been raised specifically to commercialize and fund startups around open source software. Guys, we got a great panel here of experts, thanks for joining us, appreciate it. >> Go Bears! >> Nice to be here. >> So we have a distinguished panel, it's the Power Panel, we're on cloud technos, first I'd like to get you guys' reaction you know, you're to seeing a lot of negative news around what Facebook has become, essentially their own hyper-scale cloud with their application. They were called the digital, you know, renegades, or digital gangsters in the UK by the Parliament, which was built on open source software. Amazon's continuing to win, Azure's doing their thing, bundling Office 365, making it look like they've got more revenue with their catching up, Google, and then you got IBM and Oracle, and then you got an ecosystem that's impacted by this large scale, so I want to get your thoughts on first point here. Is there room for more clouds? There's a big buzzword around multiple clouds. Are we going to see specialty clouds? 'Causes Salesforce is a cloud, so is there room for more cloud? Jim, why don't you start? >> Well, I sure hope so. You know, the internet has unfortunately become sort of the internet of monopolies, and that doesn't do anyone any good. In fact, you bring up an interesting point, it'd be kind of interesting to see if Facebook created a social cloud for certain types of applications to use. I've no idea whether that makes any sense, but Amazon's clearly been the big gorilla now, and done an amazing job, we love using them, but we also love seeing, trying out different services that they have and then figuring out whether we want to develop them ourselves or use a specialty service, and I think that's going to be interesting, particularly in the AI area, stuff like that. So I sure hope more clouds are around for all of us to take advantage of. >> Joseph, I want you to weigh in here, 'cause you were close to the Kubernetes trend, in fact we were at a OpenStack event when you started Kismatic, which is the movement that became KubeCon Cloud Native, many many years ago, now you're investing in open source. The world's built on open source, there's got to be room for more clouds. Your thoughts on the opportunities? >> Yeah, thanks for having me on, John. I think we need a new kind of open collaborative cloud, and to date, we haven't really seen any of the existing major sort of large critical mass cloud providers participate in that type of model. Arguably, Google has probably participated and contributed the most in the open source ecosystem, contributing TensorFlow and Kubernetes and Go, lots of different open source projects, but they're ultimately focused on gravitating huge amounts of compute and storage cycles to their cloud platform. So I think one of the big missing links in the industry is, as we continue to see the rise of these large vertically integrated proprietary control planes for computing and storage and applications and services, I think as the open source community and the open source ecosystem continues to grow and explode, we'll need a third sort of provider, one that isn't based on monopoly or based on a traditional proprietary software business like Microsoft kind of transitioning their enterprise customers to services, sort of Amazon in the first camp vertically integrated many a buffet of all these different compute, storage, networking services, application, middleware. Microsoft focused on sort of building managed services of their software portfolio. I think we need a third model where we have sort of an open set of interfaces and an open standards based cloud provider that might be a pure software company, it might be a company that builds on the rails and the infrastructure that Amazon has laid down, spending tens of billions in cap ex, or it could be something based on a project like Kubernetes or built from the community ecosystem. So I think we need something like that just to sort of provide, speed the innovation, and disaggregate the services away from a monolithic kind of closed vendor like Amazon or Azure. >> I want to come back to that whole startup opportunity, but I want to get Sarbjeet in here, because we've been in the B2B area with just last week at IBM Think 2019. Obviously they're trying to get back into the cloud game, but this digital transformation that has been the cliche for almost a couple of years now, if not five or plus. Business has got to move to the cloud, so there's a whole new ball game of complete cultural shift. They need stability. So I want to talk more about this open cloud, which I love that conversation, but give me the blocking and tackling capabilities first, 'cause I got to get out of that old cap ex model, move to an operating model, transform my business, whether it's multi clouds. So Sarbjeet, what's your take on the cloud market for say, the enterprise? >> Yeah, I think for the enterprise... you're just sitting in that data center and moving those to cloud, it's a cumbersome task. For that to work, they actually don't need all the bells and whistles which Amazon has in the periphery, if you will. They need just core things like compute, network, and storage, and some other sort of services, maybe database, maybe data share and stuff like that, but they just want to move those applications as is to start with, with some replatforming and with some changes. Like, they won't make changes to first when they start moving those applications, but our minds are polluted by this thinking. When we see a Facebook being formed by a couple of people, or a company of six people sold for a billion dollars, it just messes up with our mind on the enterprise side, hey we can do that too, we can move that fast and so forth, but it's sort of tragic that we think that way. Well, having said that, and I think we have talked about this in the past. If you are doing anything in the way of systems innovation, if your building those at, even at the enterprise, I think cloud is the way to go. To your original question, if there's room for newer cloud players, I think there is, provided that we can detach the platforms from the environments they are sitting on. So the proprietariness has to kinda, it has to be lowered, the degree of proprietariness has to be lower. It can be through open source I think mainly, it can be from open technologies, they don't have to be open source, but portable. >> JJ was mentioning that, I think that's a big point. Jim Long, you're an entrepreneur, you've been a VC, you know all the VCs, been around for a while, you're also, you're an entrepreneur, you're a serial entrepreneur, starting out at Cal Berkeley back in the day. You know, small ideas can move fast, and you're building on Amazon, and you've got a media kind of thing going on, there's a cloud opportunity for you, 'cause you are cloud native, 'cause you're built in the cloud. How do you see it playing out? 'Cause you're scaling with Amazon. >> Well, so we obviously, as a new startup, don't have the issues the enterprise folks have, and I could really see the enterprise customers, what we used to call the Fortune 500, for example, getting together and insisting on at least a base set of APIs that Amazon and Microsoft et cetera adopt, and for a startup, it's really about moving fast with your own solution that solves a problem. So you don't necessarily care too much that you're tied into Amazon completely because you know that if you need to, you can make a change some day. But they do such a good job for us, and their costs, while they can certainly be lower, and we certainly would like more volume discounts, they're pretty darn amazing across the network, across the internet, we do try to price out other folks just for the heck of it, been doing that recently with CDNs, for example. But for us, we're actually creating a hybrid cloud, if you will, a purpose-built cloud to support local television stations, and we do think that's going to be, along with using Amazon, a unique cloud with our own APIs that we will hopefully have lots of different TV apps use our hybrid cloud for part of their application to service local TV. So it's kind of a interesting play for us, the B2B part of it, we're hoping to be pretty successful as well, and we hope to maybe have multiple cloud vendors in our mix, you know. Not that our users will know who's behind us, maybe Amazon, for something, Limelight for another, or whatever, for example. >> Well you got to be concerned about lock-in as you become in the cloud, that's something that everybody's worried about. JJ, I want to get back to you on the investment thesis, because you have a cutting edge business model around investing in open source software, and there's two schools of thought in the open source community, you know, free contribution's great, and let tha.t be organic, and then there's now commercialization. There's real value being created in open source. You had put together a chart with your team about the billions of dollars in exits from open source companies. So what are you investing in, what do you see as opportunities for entrepreneurs like Jim and others that are out there looking at scaling their business? How do you look at success, what's your advice, what do you see as leading indicators? >> I think I'll broadly answer your question with a model that we've been thinking a lot about. We're going to start writing publicly about it and probably eventually maybe publish a book or two on it, and it's around the sort of fundamental perspective of creating value and capturing value. So if you model a famous investor and entrepreneur in Silicon Valley who has commonly modeled these things using two different letter variables, X and Y, but I'll give you the sort of perspective of modeling value creation and value capture around open source, as compared to closed source or proprietary software. So if you look at value creation modeled as X, and value capture modeled as Y, where X and Y are two independent variables with a fully proprietary software company based approach, whether you're building a cloud service or a proprietary software product or whatever, just a software company, your value creation exponent is typically bounded by two things. Capital and fundraising into the entity creating the software, and the centralization of research and development, meaning engineering output for producing the software. And so those two things are tightly coupled to and bounded to the company. With commercial open source software, the exact opposite is true. So value creation is decoupled and independent from funding, and value creation is also decentralized in terms of the research and development aspect. So you have a sort of decentralized, community-based, crowd-sourced, or sort of internet, global phenomena of contributing to a code base that isn't necessarily owned or fully controlled by a single entity, and those two properties are sort of decoupled from funding and decentralized R and D, are fundamentally changing the value creation kind of exponent. Now let's look at the value capture variable. With proprietary software company, or proprietary technology company, you're primarily looking at two constituents capturing value, people who pay for accessing the service or the software, and people who create the software. And so those two constituents capture all the value, they capture, you know, the vendor selling the software captures maybe 10 or 20% of the value, and the rest of the value, I would would express it say as the customer is capturing the rest of the value. Most economists don't express value capture as capturable by an end user or a customer. I think that's a mistake. >> Jim, you're-- >> So now... >> Okay, Jim, your reaction to that, because there's an article went around this weekend from Motherboard. "The internet was built on free labor "of open source developers. "Is that sustainable?" So Jim, what's your reaction to JJ's comments about the interactions and the dynamic between value creation, value capture, free versus sustainable funding? >> Well if you can sort of mix both together, that's what I would like, I haven't really ever figured out how to make open source work in our business model, but I haven't really tried that hard. It's an intriguing concept for sure, particularly if we come up with APIs that are specific to say, local television or something like that, and maybe some special processes that do things that are of interest to the wider community. So it's something I do plan to look at because I do agree that if you, I mean we use open source, we use this thing called FFmpeg, and several other things, and we're really happy that there's people out there adding value to them, et cetera, and we have our own versions, et cetera, so we'd like to contribute to the community if we could figure out how. >> Sarbjeet, your reactions to JJ's thesis there? >> I think two things. I will comment on two different aspects. One is the lack of standards, and then open source becoming the standard, right. I think open source kind of projects take birth and life in its own, because we have lack of standard, 'cause these different vendors can't agree on standards. So remember we used to have service-oriented architecture, we have Microsoft pushing some standards from one side and IBM pushing from other, SOAP versus xCBL and XML, different sort of paradigms, right, but then REST API became the de facto standard, right, it just took over, I think what REST has done for software in last about 10 years or so, nothing has done that for us. >> well Kubernetes is right now looking pretty good. So if you look at JJ, Kubernetes, the movement you were really were pioneering on, it's having similar dynamic, I mean Kubernetes is becoming a forcing function for solidarity in the community of cloud native, as well as an actual interoperable orchestration layer for multiple clouds and other services. So JJ, your thoughts on how open source continues as some of these new technologies, like Kubernetes, continue to hit the scene. Is there any trajectory change in open source that you see, that you could share, I'd love to get your insights on what's next behind, you know, the rise of Kubernetes is happening, what's next? >> I think more abstractly from Kubernetes, we believe that if you just look at the rate of innovation as a primary factor for progress and forward change in the world, open source software has the highest rate of innovation of any technology creation phenomena, and as a consequence, we're seeing more standards emerge from the open source ecosystem, we're seeing more disruption happen from the open source ecosystem, we're seeing more new technology companies and new paradigms and shifts happen from the open source ecosystem, and kind of all progress across the largest, most difficult sort of compound, sensitive problems, influenced and kind of sourced from the open source ecosystem and the open source world overall. Whether it's chip design, machine learning or computing innovations or new types of architectures, or new types of developer paradigms, you know, biological breakthroughs, there's kind of things up and down the technology spectrum that have a lot to sort of thank open source for. We think that the future of technology and the future of software is really that open source is at the core, as opposed to the periphery or the edges, and so today, every software technology company, and cloud providers included, have closed proprietary cores, meaning that where the core is, the data path, the runtime, the core business logic of the company, today that core is proprietary software or closed source software, and yet what is also true, is at the edges, the wrappers, the sort of crust, the periphery of every technology company, we have lots of open source, we have client libraries and bindings and languages and integrations, configuration, UIs and so on, but the cores are proprietary. We think the following will happen over the next few decades. We think the future will gradually shift from closed proprietary cores to open cores, where instead of a proprietary core, an open core is where you have core open source software project, as the fundamental building block for the company. So for example, Hadoop caused the creation of MapR and Cloudera and Hortonworks, Spark caused the creation of Databricks, Kafka caused the creation of Confluent, Git caused the creation of GitHub and GitLab, and this type of commercial open source software model, where there's a core open source project as the kernel building block for the company, and then an extension of intellectual property or wrappers around that open source project, where you can derive value capture and charge for licensed product with the company, and impress customer, we think that model is where the future is headed, and this includes cloud providers, basically selling proprietary services that could be based on a mixture of open source projects, but perhaps not fundamentally on a core open source project. Now we think generally, like abstractly, with maybe somewhat of a reductionist explanation there, but that open core future is very likely, fundamentally because of the rate of innovation being the highest with the open source model in general. >> All right, that's great stuff. Jim, you're a historian of tech, you've lived it. Your thoughts on some of the emerging trends around cloud, because you're disrupting linear TV with Didja, in a new way using cloud technology. How do you see cloud evolving? >> Well, I think the long lines we discussed, certainly I think that's a really interesting model, and having the open source be the center of the universe, then figure out how to have maybe some proprietary stuff, if I can use that word, around it, that other people can take advantage of, but maybe you get the value capture and build a business on that, that makes a lot of sense, and could certainly fit in the TV industry if you will from where I sit... Bring services to businesses and consumers, so it's not like there's some reason it wouldn't work, you know, it's bound to, it's bound to figure out a way, and if you can get a whole mass of people around the world working on the core technology and if it is sort of unique to what mission of, or at least the marketplace you're going after, that could be pretty interesting, and that would be great to see a lot of different new mini-clouds, if you will, develop around that stuff would be pretty cool. >> Sarbjeet, I want you to talk about scale, because you also have experience working with Rackspace. Rackspace was early on, they were trying to build the cloud, and OpenStack came out of that, and guess what, the world was moving so fast, Amazon was a bullet train just flying down the tracks, and it just felt like Rackspace and their cloud, you know OpenStack, just couldn't keep up. So is scale an issue, and how do people compete against scale in your mind? >> I think scale is an issue, and software chops is an issue, so there's some patterns, right? So one pattern is that we tend to see that open source is now not very good at the application side. You will hardly see any applications being built as open source. And also on the extreme side, open source is pretty sort of lame if you will, at very core of the things, like OpenStack failed for that reason, right? But it's pretty good in the middle as Joseph said, right? So building pipes, building some platforms based on open source, so the hooks, integration, is pretty good there, actually. I think that pattern will continue. Hopefully it will go deeper into the core, which we want to see. The other pattern is I think the software chops, like one vendor has to lead the project for certain amount of time. If that project goes into sort of open, like anybody can grab it, lot of people contribute and sort of jump in very quickly, it tends to fail. That's what happened to, I think, OpenStack, and there were many other reasons behind that, but I think that was the main reason, and because we were smaller, and we didn't have that much software chops, I hate to say that, but then IBM could control like hundred parties a week, at the project >> They did, and look where they are. >> And so does HP, right? >> And look where they are. All right, so I'd love to have a Power Panel on open source, certainly JJ's been in the thick of it as well as other folks in the community. I want to just kind of end on lightweight question for you guys. What have you guys learned? Go down the line, start with Jim, Sarbjeet, and then JJ we'll finish with you. Share something that you've learned over the past three months that moved you or that people should know about in tech or cloud trends that's notable. What's something new that you've learned? >> In my case, it was really just spending some time in the last few months getting to know our end users a little bit better, consumers, and some of the impact that having free internet television has on their lives, and that's really motivating... (distorted speech) Something as simple as you might take for granted, but lower income people don't necessarily have a TV that works or a hotel room that has a TV that works, or heaven forbid they're homeless and all that, so it's really gratifying to me to see people sort of tuning back into their local media through television, just by offering it on their phone and laptops. >> And what are you going to do as a result of that? Take a different action, what's the next step for you, what's the action item? >> Well we're hoping, once our product gets filled out with the major networks, et cetera, that we actually provide a community attachment to it, so that we have over-the-air television channels is the main part of the app, and then a side part of the app could be any IP stream, from city council meetings to high schools, to colleges, to local community groups, local, even religious situations or festivals or whatever, and really try to tie that in. We'd really like to use local television as a way to strengthening all local media and local communities, that's the vision at least. >> It's a great mission you guys have at Didja, thanks for sharing that. Sarbjeet, what have learned over the past quarter, three months that was notable for you and the impact and something that changed you a little bit? >> What actually I have gravitated towards in last three to six months is the blockchain, actually. I was light on that, like what it can do for us, and is there really a thing behind it, and can we leverage it. I've seen more and more actually usage of that, and sort of full SCM, supply chain management and healthcare and some other sort of use cases if you will. I'm intrigued by it, and there's a lot of activity there. I think there's some legs behind it, so I'm excited about that. >> And are doing a blockchain project as a result, or are you still tire-kicking? >> No actually, I will play with it, I'm a practitioner, I play with it, I write code and play with it and see (Jim laughs) what does that level of effort it takes to do that, and as you know, I wrote the Alexa scale couple of weeks back, and play with AI and stuff like that. So I try to do that myself before I-- >> We're hoping blockchain helps even out the TV ad economy and gets rid of middle men and makes more trusting transactions between local businesses and stuff. At least I say that, I don't really know what I'm talking about. >> It sounds good though. You get yourself a new round of funding on that sound byte alone. JJ, what have you learned in the past couple months that's new to you and changed you or made you do something different? >> I've learned over the last few months, OSS Capital is a few months and change old, and so just kind of getting started on that, and it's really, I think potentially more than one decade, probably multi-decade kind of mostly consensus building effort. There's such a huge lack of consensus and agreement in the industry. It's a fascinatingly polarizing area, the sort of general topic of open source technology, economics, value creation, value capture. So my learnings over the past few months have just intensified in terms of the lack of consensus I've seen in the industry. So I'm trying to write a little bit more about observations there and sort of put thoughts out, and that's kind of been the biggest takeaway over the last few months for me. >> I'm sure you learned about all the lawyer conversations, setting up a fund, learnings there probably too right, (Jim laughs) I mean all the detail. All right, JJ, thanks so much, Sarbjeet, Jim, thanks for joining me on this Power Panel, cloud conversation impact, to entrepreneurship, open source. Jim Long, Sarbjeet Johal and Joseph Jacks, JJ, thanks for joining us, theCUBE Conversation here in Palo Alto, I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. >> Thanks John. (lively classical music)

[Music] when welcome to the special exclusive cube conversation here in Palo Alto in our studios I'm John for your host of the cube we have a very special guest speaking for the first time around some alleged alleged accusations and also innuendo around the Amazon Web Services Jedi contract and his firm c5 capital our guest as Andre Pienaar who's the founder of c5 capital Andre is here for the first time to talk about some of the hard conversations and questions surrounding his role his firm and the story from the BBC Andre thanks for a rat for meeting with me John great to have me thank you so you're at the center of a controversy and just for the folks who know the cube know we interviewed a lot of people I've interviewed you at Amazon web sources summit Teresa Carl's event and last year I met you and bought a rein the work you're doing there so I've met you a few times so I don't know your background but I want to drill into it because I was surprised to see the BBC story come out last week that was basically accusing you of many things including are you a spy are you infiltrating the US government through the Jedi contract through Amazon and knowing c-5 capital I saw no correlation when reading your article I was kind of disturbed but then I saw I said a follow-on stories it just didn't hang together so I wanted to press you on some questions and thanks for coming in and addressing them appreciate it John thanks for having me so first thing I want to ask you is you know it has you at the center this firm c5 capital that you the founder of at the center of what looks like to be the fight for the big ten billion dollar DoD contract which has been put out to multiple vendors so it's not a single source deal we've covered extensively on silicon angle calm and the cube and the government the government Accounting Office has ruled that there are six main benefits of going with a sole provider cloud this seems to be the war so Oracle IBM and others have been been involved we've been covering that so it kind of smells like something's going along with the story and I just didn't believe some of the things I read and I want to especially about you and see five capitals so I want to dig into what the first thing is it's c5 capital involved in the Jedi contract with AWS Sean not at all we have absolutely no involvement in the Jedi contract in any way we're not a bidder and we haven't done any lobbying as has been alleged by some of the people who've been making this allegation c5 has got no involvement in the general contract we're a venture capital firm with a British venture capital firm we have the privilege of investing here in the US as a foreign investor and our focus really is on the growth and the success of the startups that we are invested in so you have no business interest at all in the deal Department of Defense Jedi contract none whatsoever okay so to take a minute to explain c5 firm I read some of the stories there and some of the things were intricate structures of c5 cap made it sound like there was like a cloak-and-dagger situation I want to ask you some hard questions around that because there's a link to a Russian situation but before we get to there I want to ask you explain what is c5 capital your mission what are the things that you're doing c5 is a is a British venture capital firm and we are focused on investing into fast-growing technology companies in three areas cloud computing cyber security and artificial intelligence we have two parts our business c5 capital which invests into late stage companies so these are companies that typically already have revenue visibility and profitability but still very fast-growing and then we also have a very early stage startup platform that look at seed state investment and this we do through two accelerators to social impact accelerators one in Washington and one in Bahrain and it's just size of money involved just sort of order magnitude how many funds do you have how is it structure again just share some insight on that is it is there one firm is there multiple firms how is it knows it work well today the venture capital business has to be very transparent it's required by compliance we are a regulated regulated firm we are regulated in multiple markets we regulated here in the US the sec as a foreign investor in london by the financial conduct authority and in Luxembourg where Afonso based by the regulatory authorities there so in the venture capital industry today you can't afford to be an opaque business you have to be transparent at all levels and money in the Western world have become almost completely transparent so there's a very comprehensive and thorough due diligence when you onboard capital called know your client and the requirements standard requirement now is that whenever you're onboard capital from investor you're gonna take it right up to the level of the ultimate beneficial ownership so who actually owns this money and then every time you invest and you move your money around it gets diligence together different regulators and in terms of disclosure and the same applies often now with clients when our portfolio companies have important or significant clients they also want to know who's behind the products and the services they receive so often our boards our board directors and a shell team also get diligence by by important clients so explain this piece about the due diligence and the cross country vetting that goes on is I think it's important I want to get it out because how long has been operating how many deals have you done you mentioned foreign investor in the United States you're doing deals in the United States I know I've met one of your portfolio companies at an event iron iron on it iron net general Keith Alexander former head of the NSA you know get to just work with him without being vetted I guess so so how long a c5 capital been in business and where have you made your investments you mentioned cross jurisdiction across countries whatever it's called I don't know that so we've been and we've been in existence for about six years now our main focus is investing in Europe so we help European companies grow globally Europe historically has been underserved by venture capital we on an annual basis we invest about twenty seven billion dollars gets invested in venture capital in Europe as opposed to several multiples of that in the US so we have a very important part to play in Europe to how European enterprise software companies grow globally other important markets for us of course are Israel which is a major center of technology innovation and and the Middle East and then the u.s. the u.s. is still the world leader and venture capital both in terms of size but also in terms of the size of the market and of course the face and the excitement of the innovation here I want to get into me early career because again timing is key we're seeing this with you know whether it's a Supreme Court justice or anyone in their career their past comes back to haunt them it appears that has for you before we get there I want to ask you about you know when you look at the kind of scope of fraud and corruption that I've seen in just on the surface of government thing the government bit Beltway bandits in America is you got a nonprofit that feeds a for-profit and then what you know someone else runs a shell corporation so there's this intricate structures and that word was used which it kind of implies shell corporations a variety of backroom kind of smokey deals going on you mentioned transparency I do you have anything to hide John in in in our business we've got absolutely nothing to hide we have to be transparent we have to be open if you look at our social media profile you'll see we are communicating with the market almost on a daily basis every time we make an investment we press release that our website is very clear about who's involved enough who our partners are and the same applies to my own personal website and so in terms of the money movement around in terms of deploying investments we've seen Silicon Valley VCS move to China get their butts handed to them and then kind of adjust their scenes China money move around when you move money around you mentioned disclosure what do you mean there's filings to explain that piece it's just a little bit so every time we make an investment into a into a new portfolio company and we move the money to that market to make the investment we have to disclose who all the investors are who are involved in that investment so we have to disclose the ultimate beneficial ownership of all our limited partners to the law firms that are involved in the transactions and those law firms in turn have applications in terms of they own anti-money laundering laws in the local markets and this happens every time you move money around so I I think that the level of transparency in venture capital is just continue to rise exponentially and it's virtually impossible to conceal the identity of an investor this interesting this BBC article has a theme of national security risk kind of gloom and doom nuclear codes as mentioned it's like you want to scare someone you throw nuclear codes at it you want to get people's attention you play the Russian card I saw an article on the web that that said you know anything these days the me2 movement for governments just play the Russian card and you know instantly can discredit someone's kind of a desperation act so you got confident of interest in the government national security risk seems to be kind of a theme but before we get into the BBC news I noticed that there was a lot of conflated pieces kind of pulling together you know on one hand you know you're c5 you've done some things with your hat your past and then they just make basically associate that with running amazon's jedi project yes which i know is not to be true and you clarified that joan ends a problem joan so as a venture capital firm focused on investing in the space we have to work with all the Tier one cloud providers we are great believers in commercial cloud public cloud we believe that this is absolutely transformative not only for innovation but also for the way in which we do venture capital investment so we work with Amazon Web Services we work with Microsoft who work with Google and we believe that firstly that cloud has been made in America the first 15 companies in the world are all in cloud companies are all American and we believe that cloud like the internet and GPS are two great boons which the US economy the u.s. innovation economy have provided to the rest of the world cloud computing is reducing the cost of computing power with 50 percent every three years opening up innovation and opportunities for Entrepreneurship for health and well-being for the growth of economies on an unprecedented scale cloud computing is as important to the global economy today as the dollar ease as the world's reserve currency so we are great believers in cloud we great believers in American cloud computing companies as far as Amazon is concerned our relationship with Amazon Amazon is very Amazon Web Services is very clear and it's very defined we participate in a public Marcus program called AWS activate through which AWS supports hundreds of accelerators around the world with know-how with mentoring with teaching and with cloud credits to help entrepreneurs and startups grow their businesses and we have a very exciting focus for our two accelerators which is on in Washington we focus on peace technology we focus on taking entrepreneurs from conflict countries like Sudan Nigeria Pakistan to come to Washington to work on campus in the US government building the u.s. Institute for peace to scale these startups to learn all about cloud computing to learn how they can grow their businesses with cloud computing and to go back to their own countries to build peace and stability and prosperity their heaven so we're very proud of this mission in the Middle East and Bahrain our focus is on on female founders and female entrepreneurs we've got a program called nebula through which we empower female founders and female entrepreneurs interesting in the Middle East the statistics are the reverse from what we have in the West the majority of IT graduates in the Middle East are fimo and so there's a tremendous talent pool of of young dynamic female entrepreneurs coming out of not only the Gulf but the whole of the MENA region how about a relation with Amazon websites outside of their normal incubators they have incubators all over the place in the Amazon put out as Amazon Web Services put out a statement that said hey you know we have a lot of relationships with incubators this is normal course of business I know here in Silicon Valley at the startup loft this is this is their market filled market playbook so you fit into that is that correct as I'm I get that that's that's absolutely correct what we what is unusual about a table insists that this is a huge company that's focused on tiny startups a table started with startups it double uses first clients with startups and so here you have a huge business that has a deep understanding of startups and focus on startups and that's enormous the attractor for us and terrific for our accelerators department with them have you at c5 Capitol or individually have any formal or conversation with Amazon employees where you've had outside of giving feedback on products where you've tried to make change on their technology make change with their product management teams engineering you ever had at c5 capital whore have you personally been involved in influencing Amazon's product roadmap outside they're just giving normal feedback in the course of business that's way above my pay grade John firstly we don't have that kind of technical expertise in C 5 C 5 steam consists of a combination of entrepreneurs like myself people understand money really well and leaders we don't have that level of technical expertise and secondly that's what one our relationship with AWS is all about our relationship is entirely limited to the two startups and making sure that the two accelerators in making sure that the startups who pass through those accelerators succeed and make social impact and as a partner network component Amazon it's all put out there yes so in in a Barren accelerator we've we formed part of the Amazon partner network and the reason why we we did that was because we wanted to give some of the young people who come through the accelerator and know mastering cloud skills an opportunity to work on some real projects and real live projects so some of our young golf entrepreneurs female entrepreneurs have been working on building websites on Amazon Cloud and c5 capital has a relationship with former government officials you funded startups and cybersecurity that's kind of normal can you explain that positioning of it of how former government if it's whether it's US and abroad are involved in entrepreneurial activities and why that is may or may not be a problem certainly is a lot of kind of I would say smoke around this conversation around coffin of interest and you can you explain intelligence what that was it so I think the model for venture capital has been evolving and increasingly you get more and more differentiated models one of the key areas in which the venture capital model is changed is the fact that operating partners have become much more important to the success of venture capital firms so operating partners are people who bring real world experience to the investment experience of the investment team and in c-five we have the privilege of having a terrific group of operating partners people with both government and commercial backgrounds and they work very actively enough firm at all levels from our decision-making to the training and the mentoring of our team to helping us understand the way in which the world is exchanging to risk management to helping uh portfolio companies grow and Silicon Valley true with that to injuries in Horowitz two founders mr. friendly they bring in operating people that have entrepreneurial skills this is the new model understand order which has been a great source of inspiration to us for our model and and we built really believe this is a new model and it's really critical for the success of venture capitals to be going forward and the global impact is pretty significant one of things you mentioned I want to get your take on is as you operate a global transaction a lots happened a lot has to happen I mean we look at the ICO market on the cryptocurrency side its kind of you know plummeting obsoletes it's over now the mood security children's regulatory and transparency becomes critical you feel fully confident that you haven't you know from a regulatory standpoint c5 capital everything's out there absolutely risk management and regulated compliance and legal as the workstream have become absolutely critical for the success of venture capital firms and one of the reasons why this becomes so important John is because the venture capital world over the last few years have changed dramatically historically all the people involved in venture capital had very familiar names and came from very familiar places over the last few years with a diversification of global economic growth we've seen it's very significant amounts of money being invest invested in startups in China some people more money will invest in startups this year in China than in the US and we've seen countries like Saudi Arabia becoming a major source of venture capital funding some people say that as much as 70% of funding rounds this year in some way or another originated from the Gulf and we've seen places like Russia beginning to take an interest in technology innovation so the venture capital world is changing and for that reason compliance and regulation have become much more important but if Russians put 200 million dollars in face book and write out the check companies bright before that when the after 2008 we saw the rise of social networking I think global money certainly has something that I think a lot of people start getting used to and I want on trill down into that a little bit we talked about this BBC story that that hit and the the follow-on stories which actually didn't get picked up was mostly doing more regurgitation of the same story but one of the things that that they focus in on and the story was you and the trend now is your past is your enemy these days you know they try to drum up stuff in the past you've had a long career some of the stuff that they've been bringing in to paint you and the light that they did was from your past so I wanted to explore that with you I know you this is the first time you've talked about this and I appreciate you taking the time talk about your early career your background where you went to school because the way I'm reading this it sounds like you're a shady character I like like I interviewed on the queue but I didn't see that but you know I'm going to pressure here for that if you don't mind I'd like to to dig into that John thank you for that so I've had the I've had the privilege of a really amazingly interesting life and at the heart of at the heart of that great adventures been people and the privilege to work with really great people and good people I was born in South Africa I grew up in Africa went to school there qualified as a lawyer and then came to study in Britain when I studied international politics when I finished my studies international politics I got head hunted by a US consulting firm called crow which was a start of a 20 years career as an investigator first in crawl where I was a managing director in the London and then in building my own consulting firm which was called g3 and all of this led me to cybersecurity because as an investigator looking into organized crime looking into corruption looking into asset racing increasingly as the years went on everything became digital and I became very interested in finding evidence on electronic devices but starting my career and CRO was tremendous because Jules Kroll was a incredible mentor he could walk through an office and call everybody by their first name any Kroll office anywhere in the world and he always took a kindly interest in the people who work for him so it was a great school to go to and and I worked on some terrific cases including some very interesting Russian cases and Russian organized crime cases just this bag of Kroll was I've had a core competency in doing investigative work and also due diligence was that kind of focus yes although Kroll was the first company in the world to really have a strong digital practice led by Alan Brugler of New York Alan established the first computer forensics practice which was all focused about finding evidence on devices and everything I know about cyber security today started with me going to school with Alan Brolin crawl and they also focused on corruption uncovering this is from Wikipedia Kroll clients help Kroll helps clients improve operations by uncovering kickbacks fraud another form of corruptions other specialty areas is forensic accounting background screening drug testing electronic investigation data recovery SATA result Omar's McLennan in 2004 for 1.9 billion mark divested Kroll to another company I'll take credit risk management to diligence investigator in Falls Church Virginia over 150 countries call Kroll was the first CRO was the first household brand name in this field of of investigations and today's still is probably one of the strongest brand names and so it was a great firm to work in and was a great privilege to be part of it yeah high-end high-profile deals were there how many employees were in Kroll cuz I'd imagine that the alumni that that came out of Kroll probably have found places in other jobs similar to yes do an investigative work like you know they out them all over the world many many alumni from Kroll and many of them doing really well and doing great work ok great so now the next question want to ask you is when you in Kroll the South Africa connection came up so I got to ask you it says business side that you're a former South African spy are you a former South African spy no John I've never worked for any government agency and in developing my career my my whole focus has been on investigations out of the Kroll London office I did have the opportunity to work in South Africa out of the Kroll London office and this was really a seminal moment in my career when I went to South Africa on a case for a major international credit-card company immediately after the end of apartheid when democracy started to look into the scale and extent of credit card fraud at the request of this guy what year was there - how old were you this was in 1995 1996 I was 25 26 years old and one of the things which this credit card company asked me to do was to assess what was the capability of the new democratic government in South Africa under Nelson Mandela to deal with crime and so I had the privilege of meeting mr. Mandela as the president to discuss this issue with him and it was an extraordinary man the country's history because there was such an openness and a willingness to to address issues of this nature and to grapple with them so he was released from prison at that time I remember those days and he became president that's why he called you and you met with him face to face of a business conversation around working on what the future democracy is and trying to look at from a corruption standpoint or just kind of in general was that what was that conversation can you share so so that so the meeting involved President Mandela and and the relevant cabinet ministers the relevant secretaries and his cabinet - responsible for for these issues and the focus of our conversation really started with well how do you deal with credit card fraud and how do you deal with large-scale fraud that could be driven by organized crime and at the time this was an issue of great concern to the president because there was bombing in Kate of a Planet Hollywood cafe where a number of people got very severely injured and the president believed that this could have been the result of a protection racket in Cape Town and so he wanted to do something about it he was incredibly proactive and forward-leaning and in an extraordinary way he ended the conversation by by asking where the Kroll can help him and so he commissioned Kroll to build the capacity of all the black officers that came out of the ANC and have gone into key government positions on how to manage organized crime investigations it was the challenge at that time honestly I can imagine apartheid I remember you know I was just at a college that's not properly around the same age as you it was a dynamic time to say the least was his issue around lack of training old school techniques because you know that was right down post-cold-war and then did what were the concerns not enough people was it just out of control was it a corrupt I mean just I mean what was the core issue that Nelson wanted to hire Kroll and you could work his core issue was he wanted to ensure the stability of South Africa's democracy that was his core focus and he wanted to make South Africa an attractive place where international companies felt comfortable and confident in investing and that was his focus and he felt that at that time because so many of the key people in the ANC only had training in a cold war context that there wasn't a Nessy skill set to do complex financial or more modern investigations and it was very much focused he was always the innovator he was very much focused on bringing the best practices and the best investigative techniques to the country he was I felt in such a hurry that he doesn't want to do this by going to other governments and asking for the help he wanted to Commission it himself and so he gave he gave a crawl with me as the project leader a contract to do this and my namesake Francois Pienaar has become very well known because of the film Invictus and he's been he had the benefit of Mandela as a mentor and as a supporter and that changed his career the same thing happened to me so what did he actually asked you to do was it to train build a force because there's this talk that and was a despite corruption specifically it was it more both corruption and or stability because they kind of go hand in hand policy and it's a very close link between corruption and instability and and president Ellis instructions were very clear to Crowley said go out and find me the best people in the world the most experienced people in the world who can come to South Africa and train my people how to fight organized crime so I went out and I found some of the best people from the CIA from mi6 the British intelligence service from the Drug Enforcement Agency here in the US form officers from the Federal Bureau of Investigation's detectives from Scotland Yard prosecutors from the US Justice Department and all of them for a number of years traveled to South Africa to train black officers who were newly appointed in key roles in how to combat organized crime and this was you acting as an employee he had crow there's not some operative this is he this was me very much acting as a as an executive and crow I was the project leader Kroll was very well structured and organized and I reported to the chief executive officer in the London office nor Garret who was the former head of the CIA's Near East Division and Nelson Mandela was intimately involved in this with you at Krall President Mandela was the ultimate support of this project and he then designated several ministers to work on it and also senior officials in the stories that had been put out this past week they talked about this to try to make it sound like you're involved on two sides of the equation they bring up scorpions was this the scorpions project that they referred to so it was the scorpions scorpion sounds so dangerous and a movie well there's a movie a movie does feature this so at the end of the training project President Mandela and deputy president Thabo Mbeki who subsequently succeeded him as president put together a ministerial committee to look at what should they do with the capacity that's been built with this investment that they made because for a period of about three years we had all the leading people the most experienced people that have come out of some of the best law enforcement agencies and some of the best intelligence services come and trained in South Africa and this was quite this was quite something John because many of the senior officers in the ANC came from a background where they were trained by the opponents of the people came to treat trained them so so many of them were trained by the Stasi in East Germany some of them were trained by the Russian KGB some of them were trained by the Cubans so we not only had to train them we also had to win their trust and when we started this that's a diverse set of potential dogma and or just habits a theory modernised if you will right is that what the there was there was a question of of learning new skills and there was a question about also about learning management capabilities there was also question of learning the importance of the media for when you do difficult and complex investigations there was a question about using digital resources but there was also fundamentally a question of just building trust and when we started this program none of the black officers wanted to be photographed with all these foreign trainers who were senior foreign intelligence officers when we finished that everyone wanted to be in the photograph and so this was a great South African success story but the President and the deputy president then reflected on what to do with his capacity and they appointed the ministerial task force to do this and we were asked to make recommendations to this Minister ministerial task force and one of the things which we did was we showed them a movie because you referenced the movie and the movie we showed them was the untouchables with Kevin Costner and Sean Connery which is still one of my favorite and and greatest movies and the story The Untouchables is about police corruption in Chicago and how in the Treasury Department a man called Eliot Ness put together a group of officers from which he selected from different places with clean hands to go after corruption during the Probie and this really captured the president's imagination and so he said that's what he want and Ella yeah okay so he said della one of the untouchables he wanted Eliot Ness exactly Al Capone's out there and and how many people were in that goodness so we asked that we we established the government then established decided to establish and this was passed as a law through Parliament the director of special operations the DSO which colloquy became known as the scorpions and it had a scorpion as a symbol for this unit and this became a standalone anti-corruption unit and the brilliant thing about it John was that the first intake of scorpion officers were all young black graduates many of them law graduates and at the time Janet Reno was the US Attorney General played a very crucial role she allowed half of the first intake of young cratchits to go to Quantico and to do the full FBI course in Quantico and this was the first group of foreign students who've ever been admitted to Quantico to do the full Quantico were you involved at what score's at that time yes sir and so you worked with President Mandela yes the set of the scorpions is untouchable skiing for the first time as a new democracy is emerging the landscape is certainly changing there's a transformation happening we all know the history laugh you don't watch Invictus probably great movie to do that you then worked with the Attorney General United States to cross-pollinate the folks in South Africa black officers law degrees Samar's fresh yes this unit with Quantico yes in the United States I had the privilege of attending the the graduation ceremony of the first of South African officers that completed the Quantico course and representing crow they on the day you had us relationships at that time to crawl across pollen I had the privilege of working with some of the best law enforcement officers and best intelligence officers that has come out of the u.s. services and they've been tremendous mentors in my career they've really shaped my thinking they've shaped my values and they've they've shaved my character so you're still under 30 at this time so give us a is that where this where are we in time now just about a 30 so you know around the nine late nineties still 90s yeah so client-server technologies there okay so also the story references Leonard McCarthy and these spy tapes what is this spy tape saga about it says you had a conversation with McCarthy me I'm thinking that a phone tap explain that spy tape saga what does it mean who's Lennon McCarthy explain yourself so so so Leonard McCarthy it's a US citizen today he served two terms as the vice president for institutional integrity at the World Bank which is the world's most important anti-corruption official he started his career as a prosecutor in South Africa many years ago and then became the head of the economic crimes division in the South African Justice Department and eventually became the head of the scorpions and many years after I've left Kroll and were no longer involved in in the work of the scorpions he texted me one evening expressing a concern and an anxiety that I had about the safety of his family and I replied to him with two text messages one was a Bible verse and the other one was a Latin saying and my advice name was follow the rule of law and put the safety of your family first and that was the advice I gave him so this is how I imagined the year I think of it the internet was just there this was him this was roundabout 2000 December 2007 okay so there was I phone just hit so text messaging Nokia phones all those big yeah probably more text message there so you sitting anywhere in London you get a text message from your friend yep later this past late tonight asking for help and advice and I gave him the best advice I can he unfortunately was being wiretapped and those wiretaps were subsequently published and became the subject of much controversy they've now been scrutinized by South Africa's highest court and the court has decided that those wiretaps are of no impact and of importance in the scheme of judicial decision-making and our unknown provenance and on and on unknown reliability they threw it out basically yeah they're basically that's the president he had some scandals priors and corruption but back to the tapes you the only involvement on the spy tapes was friend sending you a text message that says hey I'm running a corruption you know I'm afraid for my life my family what do I do and you give some advice general advice and that's it as there was there any more interactions with us no that's it that's it okay so you weren't like yeah working with it hey here's what we get strategy there was nothing that going on no other interactions just a friendly advice and that's what they put you I gave him my I gave him my best advice when you when you work in when you work as an investigator very much as and it's very similar in venture capital it's all about relationships and you want to preserve relationships for the long term and you develop deep royalties to its people particularly people with whom you've been through difficult situations as I have been with Leonard much earlier on when I was still involved in Kroll and giving advice to South African government on issues related to the scorpius so that that has a lot of holes and I did think that was kind of weird they actually can produce the actual tax I couldn't find that the spy tapes so there's a spy tape scandal out there your name is on out on one little transaction globbed on to you I mean how do you feel about that I mean you must've been pretty pissed when you saw that when you do it when when you do when you do investigative work you see really see everything and all kinds of things and the bigger the issues that you deal with the more frequently you see things that other people might find unusual I are you doing any work right now with c5 at South Africa and none whatsoever so I've I retired from my investigative Korea in 2014 I did terrific 20 years as an investigator during my time as investigator I came to understood the importance of digital and cyber and so at the end of it I saw an opportunity to serve a sector that historically have been underserved with capital which is cyber security and of course there are two areas very closely related to cyber security artificial intelligence and cloud and that's why I created c5 after I sold my investigator firm with five other families who equally believed in the importance of investing private capital to make a difference invest in private capital to help bring about innovation that can bring stability to the digital world and that's the mission of c-5 before I get to the heart news I want to drill in on the BBC stories I think that's really the focal point of you know why we're talking just you know from my standpoint I remember living as a young person in that time breaking into the business you know my 20s and 30s you had Live Aid in 1985 and you had 1995 the internet happened there was so much going on between those that decade 85 to 95 you were there I was an American so I didn't really have a lot exposure I did some work for IBM and Europe in 1980 says it's co-op student but you know I had some peak in the international world it must been pretty dynamic the cross-pollination the melting pot of countries you know the Berlin Wall goes down you had the cold war's ending you had apartheid a lot of things were going on around you yes so in that dynamic because if if the standard is you had links to someone you know talked about why how important it was that this melting pot and how it affected your relationships and how it looks now looking back because now you can almost tie anything to anything yes so I think the 90s was one of the most exciting periods of time because you had the birth of the internet and I started working on Internet related issues yet 20 million users today we have three and a half billion users and ten billion devices unthinkable at the time but in the wake of the internet also came a lot of changes as you say the Berlin Wall came down democracy in South Africa the Oslo peace process in the time that I worked in Kroll some of them made most important and damaging civil wars in Africa came to an end including the great war in the Congo peace came to Sudan and Angola the Ivory Coast so a lot of things happening and if you have a if you had a an international career at that time when globalization was accelerating you got to no a lot of people in different markets and both in crow and in my consulting business a key part of what it but we did was to keep us and Western corporations that were investing in emerging markets safe your credibility has been called in questions with this article and when I get to in a second what I want to ask you straight up is it possible to survive in the international theatre to the level that you're surviving if what they say is true if you if you're out scamming people or you're a bad actor pretty much over the the time as things get more transparent it's hard to survive right I mean talk about that dynamic because I just find it hard to believe that to be successful the way you are it's not a johnny-come-lately firms been multiple years operating vetted by the US government are people getting away in the shadows is it is is it hard because I almost imagine those are a lot of arbitrage I imagine ton of arbitrage that you that are happening there how hard or how easy it is to survive to be that shady and corrupt in this new era because with with with investigated with with intelligence communities with some terrific if you follow the money now Bitcoin that's a whole nother story but that's more today but to survive the eighties and nineties and to be where you are and what they're alleging I just what's your thoughts well to be able to attract capital and investors you have to have very high standards of governance and compliance because ultimately that's what investors are looking for and what investors will diligence when they make an investment with you so to carry the confidence of investors good standards of governance and compliance are of critical importance and raising venture capital and Europe is tough it's not like the US babe there's an abundance of venture capital available it's very hard Europe is under served by capital the venture capital invested in the US market is multiple of what we invest in Europe so you need to be even more focused on governance and compliance in Europe than you would be perhaps on other markets I think the second important point with Gmail John is that technology is brought about a lot of transparency and this is a major area of focus for our piece tech accelerator where we have startups who help to bring transparency to markets which previously did not have transparency for example one of the startups that came through our accelerator has brought complete transparency to the supply chain for subsistence farmers in Africa all the way to to the to the shelf of Walmart or a big grocery retailer in in the US or Europe and so I think technology is bringing a lot more more transparency we also have a global anti-corruption Innovation Challenge called shield in the cloud where we try and find and recognize the most innovative corporations governments and countries in the space so let's talk about the BBC story that hit 12 it says is a US military cloud the DoD Jedi contractor that's coming to award the eleventh hour safe from Russia fears over sensitive data so if this essentially the headline that's bolded says a technology company bidding for a Pentagon contract that's Amazon Web Services to store sensitive data has close partnerships with a firm linked to a sanctioned Russian oligarch the BBC has learned goes on to essentially put fear and tries to hang a story that says the national security of America is at risk because of c5u that's what we're talking about right now so so what's your take on this story I mean did you wake up and get an email said hey check out the BBC you're featured in and they're alleging that you have links to Russia and Amazon what Jon first I have to go I first have to do a disclosure I've worked for the BBC as an investigator when I was in Kroll and in fact I let the litigation support for the BBC in the biggest libel claim in British history which was post 9/11 when the BBC did a broadcast mistakenly accusing a mining company in Africa of laundering money for al-qaeda and so I represented the BBC in this case I was the manager hired you they hired me to delete this case for them and I'm I helped the BBC to reduce a libel claim of 25 million dollars to $750,000 so I'm very familiar with the BBC its integrity its standards and how it does things and I've always held the BBC in the highest regard and believed that the BBC makes a very important contribution to make people better informed about the world so when I heard about the story I was very disappointed because it seemed to me that the BBC have compromised the independence and the independence of the editorial control in broadcasting the story the reason why I say that is because the principal commentator in this story as a gentleman called John Wheeler who's familiar to me as a someone who's been trolling our firm on internet for the last year making all sorts of allegations the BBC did not disclose that mr. Weiler is a former Oracle executive the company that's protesting the Jedi bidding contract and secondly that he runs a lobbying firm with paid clients and that he himself often bid for government contracts in the US government context you're saying that John Wheeler who's sourced in the story has a quote expert and I did check him out I did look at what he was doing I checked out his Twitter he seems to be trying to socialise a story heavily first he needed eyes on LinkedIn he seems to be a consultant firm like a Beltway yes he runs a he runs a phone called in interoperability Clearing House and a related firm called the IT acquisition Advisory Council and these two organizations work very closely together the interoperability Clearing House or IC H is a consulting business where mr. Weiler acts for paying clients including competitors for this bidding contract and none of this was disclosed by the BBC in their program the second part of this program that I found very disappointing was the fact that the BBC in focusing on the Russian technology parks cocuwa did not disclose the list of skok of our partners that are a matter of public record on the Internet if you look at this list very closely you'll see c5 is not on there neither Amazon Web Services but the list of companies that are on there are very familiar names many of them competitors in this bidding process who acted as founding partners of skok about Oracle for example as recently as the 28th of November hosted what was described as the largest cloud computing conference in Russia's history at Skolkovo this is the this is the place which the BBC described as this notorious den of spies and at this event which Oracle hosted they had the Russian presidential administration on a big screen as one of their clients in Russia so some Oracle is doing business in Russia they have like legit real links to Russia well things you're saying if they suddenly have very close links with Skolkovo and so having a great many other Khayyam is there IBM Accenture cisco say Microsoft is saying Oracle is there so Skolkovo has a has a very distinguished roster of partners and if the BBC was fair and even-handed they would have disclosed us and they would have disclosed the fact that neither c5 nor Amazon feature as Corcovado you feel that the BBC has been duped the BBC clearly has been duped the program that they broadcasted is really a parlor game of six degrees of separation which they try to spun into a national security crisis all right so let's tell us John while ago you're saying John Wyler who's quoted in the story as an expert and by the way I read in the story my favorite line that I wanted to ask you on was there seems to be questions being raised but the question is being raised or referring to him so are you saying that he is not an expert but a plant for the story what's what's his role he's saying he works for Oracle or you think do you think he's being paid by Oracle like I can't comment on mr. Wireless motivation what strikes me is the fact that is a former Oracle executive what's striking is that he clearly on his website for the IC H identifies several competitors for the Jedi business clients and that all of this should have been disclosed by the BBC rather than to try and characterize and portray him as an independent expert on this story well AWS put out a press release or a blog post essentially hum this you know you guys had won it we're very clear and this I know it goes to the top because that's how Amazon works nothing goes out until it goes to the top which is Andy chassis and the senior people over there it says here's the relationship with c5 and ATS what school you use are the same page there but also they hinted the old guard manipulation distant I don't think they use the word disinformation campaign they kind of insinuate it and that's what I'm looking into I want to ask you are you part are you a victim of a disinformation campaign do you believe that you're not a victim being targeted with c5 as part of a disinformation campaign put on by a competitor to AWS I think what we've seen over the course of this last here is an enormous amount of disinformation around this contract and around this bidding process and they've a lot of the information that has been disseminated has not only not been factual but in some cases have been patently malicious well I have been covering Amazon for many many years this guy Tom Wyler is in seems to be circulating multiple reports invested in preparing for this interview I checked Vanity Fair he's quoted in Vanity Fair he's quoted in the BBC story and there's no real or original reporting other than those two there's some business side our article which is just regurgitating the Business Insider I mean the BBC story and a few other kind of blog stories but no real original yes no content don't so in every story that that's been written on this subject and as you say most serious publication have thrown this thrown these allegations out but in the in those few instances where they've managed to to publish these allegations and to leverage other people's credibility to their advantage and leverage other people's credibility for their competitive advantage John Wheeler has been the most important and prominent source of the allegations someone who clearly has vested commercial interests someone who clearly works for competitors as disclosed on his own website and none of this has ever been surfaced or addressed I have multiple sources have confirmed to me that there's a dossier that has been created and paid for by a firm or collection of firms to discredit AWS I've seen some of the summary documents of that and that is being peddled around to journalists we have not been approached yet I'm not sure they will because we actually know the cloud what cloud computing is so I'm sure we could debunk it by just looking at it and what they were putting fors was interesting is this an eleventh-hour a desperation attempt because I have the Geo a report here that was issued under Oracle's change it says there are six conditions why we're looking at one sole cloud although it's not a it's a multiple bid it's not an exclusive to amazon but so there's reasons why and they list six service levels highly specialized check more favorable terms and conditions with a single award expected cause of administration of multiple contracts outweighs the benefits of multiple awards the projected orders are so intricately related that only a single contractor can reasonably be perform the work meaning that Amazon has the only cloud that can do that work now I've reported on the cube and it's looking angle that it's true there's things that other clouds just don't have anyone has private they have the secret the secret clouds the total estimated value of the contract is less than the simplified acquisition threshold or multiple awards would not be in the best interest this is from them this is a government report so it seems like there's a conspiracy against Amazon where you are upon and in in this game collect you feel that collateral damage song do you do you believe that to be true collateral damage okay well okay so now the the John Wheeler guys so investigate you've been an investigator so you mean you're not you know you're not a retired into this a retired investigator you're retired investigated worked on things with Nelson Mandela Kroll Janet Reno Attorney General you've vetted by the United States government you have credibility you have relationships with people who have have top-secret clearance all kinds of stuff but I mean do you have where people have top-secret clearance or or former people who had done well we have we have the privilege of of working with a very distinguished group of senior national security leaders as operating partisan c5 and many of them have retained their clearances and have been only been able to do so because c5 had to pass through a very deep vetting process so for you to be smeared like this you've been in an investigative has you work at a lot of people this is pretty obvious to you this is like a oh is it like a deep state conspiracy you feel it's one vendor - what is your take and what does collateral damage mean to you well I recently spoke at the mahkum conference on a session on digital warfare and one of the key points I made there was that there are two things that are absolutely critical for business leaders and technology leaders at this point in time one we have to clearly say that our countries are worth defending we can't walk away from our countries because the innovation that we are able to build and scale we're only able to do because we live in democracies and then free societies that are governed by the rule of law the second thing that I think is absolutely crucial for business leaders in the technology community is to accept that there must be a point where national interest overrides competition it must be a point where we say the benefit and the growth and the success of our country is more important to us than making commercial profits and therefore there's a reason for us either to cooperate or to cease competition or to compete in a different way what might takes a little bit more simple than that's a good explanation is I find these smear campaigns and fake news and I was just talking with Kara Swisher on Twitter just pinging back and forth you know either journalists are chasing Twitter and not really doing the original courting or they're being fed stories if this is truly a smear campaign as being fed by a paid dossier then that hurts people when families and that puts corporate interests over the right thing so I think I a personal issue with that that's fake news that's just disinformation but it's also putting corporate inches over over families and people so I just find that to be kind of really weird when you say collateral damage earlier what did you mean by that just part of the campaign you personally what's what's your view okay I think competition which is not focused on on performance and on innovation and on price points that's competition that's hugely destructive its destructive to the fabric of innovation its destructive of course to the reputation of the people who fall in the line of sight of this kind of competition but it's also hugely destructive to national interest Andrae one of the key stories here with the BBC which has holes in it is that the Amazon link which we just talked about but there's one that they bring up that seems to be core in all this and just the connections to Russia can you talk about your career over the career from whether you when you were younger to now your relationship with Russia why is this Russian angle seems to be why they bring into the Russia angle into it they seem to say that c-5 Cable has connections they call deep links personal links into Russia so to see what that so c5 is a venture capital firm have no links to Russia c5 has had one individual who is originally of Russian origin but it's been a longtime Swiss resident and you national as a co investor into a enterprise software company we invested in in 2015 in Europe we've since sold that company but this individual Vladimir Kuznetsov who's became the focus of the BBC's story was a co investor with us and the way in which we structure our investment structures is that everything is transparent so the investment vehicle for this investment was a London registered company which was on the records of Companies House not an offshore entity and when Vladimir came into this company as a co investor for compliance and regulatory purposes we asked him to make his investment through this vehicle which we controlled and which was subject to our compliance standards and completely transparent and in this way he made this investment now when we take on both investors and Co investors we do that subject to very extensive due diligence and we have a very robust and rigorous due diligence regime which in which our operating partners who are leaders of great experience play an important role in which we use outside due diligence firms to augment our own judgment and to make sure we have all the facts and finally we also compare notes with other financial institutions and peers and having done that with Vladimir Kuznetsov when he made this one investment with us we reached the conclusion that he was acting in his own right as an independent angel investor that his left renova many years ago as a career executive and that he was completely acceptable as an investor so that you think that the BBC is making an inaccurate Association the way they describe your relationship with Russia absolutely the the whole this whole issue of the provenance of capital has become of growing importance to the venture capital industry as you and I discussed earlier with many more different sources of capital coming out of places like China like Russia Saudi Arabia other parts of the world and therefore going back again to you the earlier point we discussed compliance and due diligence our critical success factors and we have every confidence in due diligence conclusions that we reached about vladimir quits net source co-investment with us in 2015 so I did some digging on c5 razor bidco this was the the portion of the company in reference to the article I need to get your your take on this and they want to get you on the record on this because it's you mentioned I've been a law above board with all the compliance no offshore entities this is a personal investment that he made Co investment into an entity you guys set up for the transparency and compliance is that true that's correct no side didn't see didn't discover this would my my children could have found this this this company was in a transparent way on the records in Companies House and and Vladimir's role and investment in it was completely on the on the public record all of this was subject to financial conduct authority regulation and anti money laundering and no your client standards and compliance so there was no great big discovery this was all transparent all out in the open and we felt very confident in our due diligence findings and so you feel very confident Oh issue there at all special purpose none whatsoever is it this is classic this is international finance yes sir so in the venture capital industry creating a special purpose vehicle for a particular investment is a standard practice in c-five we focus on structuring those special-purpose vehicles in the most transparent way possible and that was his money from probably from Russia and you co invested into this for this purpose of doing these kinds of deals with Russia well we just right this is kind of the purpose of that no no no this so in 2015 we invested into a European enterprise software company that's a strategic partner of Microsoft in Scandinavian country and we invested in amount of 16 million pounds about at the time just more than 20 million dollars and subsequent in August of that year that Amir Kuznetsov having retired for nova and some time ago in his own right as an angel investor came in as a minority invest alongside us into this investment but we wanted to be sure that his investment was on our control and subject to our compliance standards so we requested him to make his investment through our special purpose vehicle c5 raised a bit co this investment has since been realized it's been a great success and this business is going on to do great things and serve great clients it c5 taking russian money no see if I was not taking Russian money since since the onset of sanctions onboarding Russian money is just impossible sanctions have introduced complexity and have introduced regulatory risk related to Russian capital and so we've taken a decision that we will not and we can't onboard Russian capital and sanctions have also impacted my investigative career sanctions have also completely changed because what the US have done very effectively is to make sanctions a truly global regime and in which ever country are based it doesn't really matter you have to comply with US sanctions this is not optional for anybody on any sanctions regime including the most recent sanctions on Iran so if there are sanctions in place you can't touch it have you ever managed Russian oligarchs money or interests at any time I've never managed a Russian oligarchs money at any point in time I served for a period of a year honest on the board of a South African mining company in which Renova is a minority invest alongside an Australian company called South 32 and the reason why I did this was because of my support for African entrepreneurship this was one of the first black owned mining companies in South Africa that was established with a British investment in 2004 this business have just grown to be a tremendous success and so for a period of a year I offered to help them on the board and to support them as they as they looked at how they can grow and scale the business I have a couple more questions Gabe so I don't know if you wanna take a break you want to keep let's take a break okay let's take a quick break do a quick break I think that's great that's the meat of it great job by the way fantastic lady here thanks for answering those questions the next section I want to do is compliment