>>Hello, brilliant humans and welcome back to Las Vegas, Nevada, where we are live from the AWS Reinvent Show floor here with the cube. My name is Savannah Peterson, joined with Dave Valante, and we have a very exciting conversation with you. Two, two companies you may have heard of. We've got AWS and Red Hat in the house. Manu and Joel, thank you so much for being here. Love this little fist bump. Started off, that's right. Before we even got rolling, Manu, you said that you wanted this to be the best segment of, of the cubes airing. We we're doing over a hundred segments, so you're gonna have to bring the heat. >>We're ready. We're did go. Are we ready? Yeah, go. We're ready. Let's bring it on. >>We're ready. All right. I'm, I'm ready. Dave's ready. Let's do it. How's the show going for you guys real quick before we dig in? >>Yeah, I think after Covid, it's really nice to see that we're back into the 2019 level and, you know, people just want to get out, meet people, have that human touch with each other, and I think a lot of trust gets built as a functional that, so it's super amazing to see our partners and customers here at Reedman. Yeah, >>And you've got a few in the house. That's true. Just a few maybe, maybe a couple >>Very few shows can say that, by the way. Yeah, it's maybe a handful. >>I think one of the things we were saying, it's almost like the entire Silicon Valley descended in the expo hall area, so >>Yeah, it's >>For a few different reasons. There's a few different silicon defined. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't have strong on for you. So far >>It's, it's, it is amazing. It's the 10th year, right? It's decade, I think I've been to five and it's, it grows every single year. It's the, you have to be here. It's as simple as that. And customers from every single industry are here too. You don't get, a lot of shows have every single industry and almost every single location around the globe. So it's, it's a must, must be >>Here. Well, and the personas evolved, right? I was at reinvent number two. That was my first, and it was all developers, not all, but a lot of developers. And today it's a business mix, really is >>Totally, is a business mix. And I just, I've talked about it a little bit down the show, but the diversity on the show floor, it's the first time I've had to wait in line for the ladies' room at a tech conference. Almost a two decade career. It is, yeah. And it was really refreshing. I'm so impressed. So clearly there's a commitment to community, but also a commitment to diversity. Yeah. And, and it's brilliant to see on the show floor. This is a partnership that is robust and has been around for a little while. Money. Why don't you tell us a little bit about the partnership here? >>Yes. So Red Hand and AWS are best friends, you know, forever together. >>Aw, no wonder we got the fist bumps and all the good vibes coming out. I know, it's great. I love that >>We have a decade of working together. I think the relationship in the first phase was around running rail bundled with E two. Sure. We have about 70,000 customers that are running rail, which are running mission critical workloads such as sap, Oracle databases, bespoke applications across the state of verticals. Now, as more and more enterprise customers are finally, you know, endorsing and adopting public cloud, I think that business is just gonna continue to grow. So a, a lot of progress there. The second titration has been around, you know, developers tearing Red Hat and aws, Hey, listen, we wanna, it's getting competitive. We wanna deliver new features faster, quicker, we want scale and we want resilience. So just entire push towards devs containers. So that's the second chapter with, you know, red Hat OpenShift on aws, which launched as a, a joint manage service in 2021 last year. And I think the third phase, which you're super excited about, is just bringing the ease of consumption, one click deployment, and then having our customers, you know, benefit from the joint committed spend programs together. So, you know, making sure that re and Ansible and JBoss, the entire portfolio of Red Hat products are available on AWS marketplace. So that's the 1, 2, 3, it of our relationship. It's a decade of working together and, you know, best friends are super committed to making sure our customers and partners continue successful. >>Yeah, that he said it, he said it perfectly. 2008, I know you don't like that, but we started with Rel on demand just in 2008 before E two even had a console. So the partnership has been there, like Manu says, for a long time, we got the partnership, we got the products up there now, and we just gotta finalize that, go to market and get that gas on the fire. >>Yeah. So Graviton Outpost, local zones, you lead it into all the new stuff. So that portends, I mean, 2008, we're talking two years after the launch of s3. >>That's right. >>Right. So, and now look, so is this a harbinger of things to come with these new innovations? >>Yeah, I, I would say, you know, the innovation is a key tenant of our partnership, our relationship. So if you look at from a product standpoint, red Hat or Rel was one of the first platforms that made a support for graviton, which is basically 40% better price performance than any other distribution. Then that translated into making sure that Rel is available on all of our regions globally. So this year we launched Switzerland, Spain, India, and Red Hat was available on launch there, support for Nitro support for Outpost Rosa support on Outpost as well. So I think that relationship, that innovation on the product side, that's pretty visible. I think that innovation again then translates into what we are doing on marketplace with one click deployments we spoke about. I think the third aspect of the know innovation is around making sure that we are making our partners and our customers successful. So one of the things that we've done so far is Joe leads a, you know, a black belt team that really goes into each customer opportunity, making sure how can we help you be successful. We launched and you know, we should be able to share that on a link. After this, we launched like a big playlist, which talks about every single use case on how do you get successful and running OpenShift on aws. So that innovation on behalf of our customers partners to make them successful, that's been a key tenant for us together as >>Well. That's right. And that team that Manu is talking about, we're gonna, gonna 10 x that team this year going into January. Our fiscal yield starts in January. Love that. So yeah, we're gonna have a lot of no hiring freeze over here. Nope. No ma'am. No. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. And you know what I love about working with aws and, and, and Manu just said it very, all of that's customer driven. Every single event that we, that he just talked about in that timeline, it's customer driven, right? Customers wanted rail on demand, customers want JBoss up in the cloud, Ansible this week, you know, everything's up there now. So it's just getting that go to market tight and we're gonna, we're gonna get that done. >>So what's the algorithm for customer driven in terms of taking the input? Because if every customers saying, Hey, I this a >>Really similar >>Question right up, right? I, that's what I want. And if you know, 95% of the customers say it, Jay, maybe that's a good idea. >>Yeah, that's right. Trends. But >>Yeah. You know, 30% you might be like, mm, you know, 20%, you know, how do you guys decide when to put gas on the fire? >>No, that, I think, as I mentioned, there are about 70,000 large customers that are running rail on Easy Two, many of these customers are informing our product strategy. So we have, you know, close to about couple of thousand power users. We have customer advisory booths, and these are the, you know, customers are informing us, Hey, let's get all of the Red Hat portfolio and marketplace support for graviton, support for Outpost. Why don't we, why are we not able to dip into the consumption committed spend programs for both Red Hat and aws? That's right. So it's these power users both at the developer level as well as the guys who are actually doing large commercial consumption. They are the ones who are informing the roadmap for both Red Hat and aws. >>But do, do you codify the the feedback? >>Yeah, I'm like, I wanna see the database, >>The, I think it was, I don't know, it was maybe Chasy, maybe it was Besos, that that data beats intuition. So do you take that information and somehow, I mean, it's global, 70,000 customers, right? And they have different weights, different spending patterns, different levels of maturity. Yeah. Do you, how do you codify that and then ultimately make the decision? Yeah, I >>If, I mean, well you, you've got the strategic advisory boards, which are made up of customers and partners and you know, you get, you get a good, you gotta get a good slice of your customer base to get, and you gotta take their feedback and you gotta do something with it, right? That's the, that's the way we do it and codify it at the product level, I'm sure open source. That's, that's basically how we work at the product level, right? The most elegant solution in open source wins. And that's, that's pretty much how we do that at the, >>I would just add, I think it's also just the implicit trust that the two companies had built with each other, working in the trenches, making our customers and partners successful over the last decade. And Alex, give an example. So that manifests itself in context of like, you know, Amazon and Red Hat just published the entire roadmap for OpenShift. What are the new features that are becoming over the next six to nine to 12 months? It's open source available on GitHub. Customers can see, and then they can basically come back and give feedback like, Hey, you know, we want hip compliance. We just launched. That was a big request that was coming from our >>Customers. That is not any process >>Also for Graviton or Nvidia instances. So I I I think it's a, >>Here's the thing, the reason I'm pounding on this is because you guys have a pretty high hit rate, and I think as a >>Customer, mildly successful company >>As, as a customer advocate, the better, you know, if, if you guys make bets that pay off, it's gonna pay off for customers. Right. And because there's a lot of failures in it. Yeah. I mean, let's face it. That's >>Right. And I think, I think you said the key word bets. You place a lot of small bets. Do you have the, the innovation engine to do that? AWS is the perfect place to place those small bets. And then you, you know, pour gas on the fire when, when they take off. >>Yeah, it's a good point. I mean, it's not expensive to experiment. Yeah. >>Especially in the managed service world. Right? >>And I know you love taking things to market and you're a go to market guy. Let's talk gtm, what's got your snow pumped about GTM for 2023? >>We, we are gonna, you know, 10 x the teams that's gonna be focused on these products, right? So we're gonna also come out with a hybrid committed spend program for our customers that meet them where they want to go. So they're coming outta the data center going into a cloud. We're gonna have a nice financial model for them to do that. And that's gonna take a lot of the friction out. >>Yeah. I mean, you've nailed it. I, I think the, the fact that now entire Red Hat portfolio is available on marketplace, you can do it on one click deployment. It's deeply integrated with Amazon services and the most important part that Joel was making now customers can double dip. They can drive benefit from the consumption committed spend programs, both from Red Hat and from aws, which is amazing. Which is a game changer That's right. For many of our large >>Customers. That's right. And that, so we're gonna, we're gonna really go to town on that next year. That's, and all the, all the resources that I have, which are the technology sellers and the sas, you know, the engineers we're growing this team the most out that team. So it's, >>When you say 10 x, how many are you at now? I'm >>Curious to see where you're headed. Tell you, okay. There's not right? Oh no, there's not one. It's triple digit. Yeah, yeah. >>Today. Oh, sweet. Awesome. >>So, and it's a very sizable team. They're actually making sure that each of our customers are successful and then really making sure that, you know, no customer left behind policy. >>And it's a great point that customers love when Amazonians and Red Hats show up, they love it and it's, they want to get more of it, and we're gonna, we're gonna give it to 'em. >>Must feel great to be loved like that. >>Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. I would say yes. >>Seems like it's safe to say that there's another decade of partnership between your two companies. >>Hope so. That's right. That's the plan. >>Yeah. And I would say also, you know, just the IBM coming into the mix here. Yeah. I, you know, red Hat has informed the way we have turned around our partnership with ibm, essentially we, we signed the strategic collaboration agreement with the company. All of IBM software now runs on Rosa. So that is now also providing a lot of tailwinds both to our rail customers and as well as Rosa customers. And I think it's a very net creative, very positive for our partnership. >>That's right. It's been very positive. Yep. Yeah. >>You see the >>Billboards positive. Yeah, right. Also that, that's great. Great point, Dave. Yep. We have a, we have a new challenge, a new tradition on the cube here at Reinvent where we're, well, it's actually kind of a glamor moment for you, depending on how you leverage it. We're looking for your 32nd hot take your Instagram reel, your sizzle thought leadership, biggest takeaway, most important theme from this year's show. I know you want, right, Joel? I mean, you TM boy, I feel like you can spit the time. >>Yeah. It is all about Rosa for us. It is all in on that, that's the native OpenShift offering on aws and that's, that's the soundbite we're going go to town with. Now, I don't wanna forget all the other products that are in there, but Rosa is a, is a very key push for us this year. >>Fantastic. All right. Manu. >>I think our customers, it's getting super competitive. Our customers want to innovate just a >>Little bit. >>The enterprise customers see the cloud native companies. I wanna do what these guys are doing. I wanna develop features at a fast clip. I wanna scale, I wanna be resilient. And I think that's really the spirit that's coming out. So to Joel's point, you know, move to worlds containers, serverless, DevOps, which was like, you know, aha, something that's happening on the side of an enterprise is not becoming mainstream. The business is demanding it. The, it is becoming the centerpiece in the business strategy. So that's been really like the aha. Big thing that's happening here. >>Yeah. And those architectures are coming together, aren't they? That's correct. Right. You know, VMs and containers, it used to be one architecture and then at the other end of the spectrum is serverless. People thought of those as different things and now it's a single architecture and, and it's kind of right approach for the right job. >>And, and a compliments say to Red Hat, they do an incredible job of hiding that complexity. Yeah. Yes. And making sure that, you know, for example, just like, make it easier for the developers to create value and then, and you know, >>Yeah, that's right. Those, they were previously siloed architectures and >>That's right. OpenShift wanna be place where you wanna run containers or virtual machines. We want that to be this Yeah. Single place. Not, not go bolt on another piece of architecture to just do one or the other. Yeah. >>And hey, the hybrid cloud vision is working for ibm. No question. You know, and it's achievable. Yeah. I mean, I just, I've said unlike, you know, some of the previous, you know, visions on fixing the world with ai, hybrid cloud is actually a real problem that you're attacking and it's showing the results. Agreed. Oh yeah. >>Great. Alright. Last question for you guys. Cause it might be kind of fun, 10 years from now, oh, we're at another, we're sitting here, we all look the same. Time has passed, but we are not aging, which is a part of the new technology that's come out in skincare. That's my, I'm just throwing that out there. Why not? What do you guys hope that you can say about the partnership and, and your continued commitment to community? >>Oh, that's a good question. You go first this time. Yeah. >>I think, you know, the, you know, for looking into the future, you need to look into the past. And Amazon has always been driven by working back from our customers. That's like our key tenant, principle number 1 0 1. >>Couple people have said that on this stage this week. Yeah. >>Yeah. And I think our partnership, I hope over the next decade continues to keep that tenant as a centerpiece. And then whatever comes out of that, I think we, we are gonna be, you know, working through that. >>Yeah. I, I would say this, I think you said that, well, the customer innovation is gonna lead us to wherever that is. And it's, it's, it's gonna be in the cloud for sure. I think we can say that in 10 years. But yeah, anything from, from AI to the quant quantum computing that IBM's really pushing behind that, you know, those are, those are gonna be things that hopefully we show up on a, on a partnership with Manu in 10 years, maybe sooner. >>Well, whatever happens next, we'll certainly be covering it here on the cube. That's right. Thank you both for being here. Joel Manu, fantastic interview. Thanks to see you guys. Yeah, good to see you brought the energy. I think you're definitely ranking high on the top interviews. We >>Love that for >>The day. >>Thank >>My pleasure >>Job, guys. Now that you're competitive at all, and thank you all for tuning in to our live coverage here from AWS Reinvent in Las Vegas, Nevada, with Dave Valante. I'm Savannah Peterson. You're watching The Cube, the leading source for high tech coverage.

(gentle music) >> Hello, beautiful humans and welcome back to fabulous Las Vegas, where we are combating the dry air of the desert and all giggling about the rasp of our voice at this stage. We're theCUBE and we are live from AWS reinvent. I am Savannah Peterson, joined by the fabulous Paul Gillin. Paul, how are you holding up? How are your feet doing? >> My feet are, I can't feel them anymore. (both laugh) >> We can't feel much after these feet. >> Two miles. Just to get from, just to get to to the keynotes this morning. >> Did you do your cross training to prepare >> For, >> Apparently not well enough. (Savannah laughs) Not well enough. >> Well, it's great to have you here >> likewise. and I'm very excited for our next conversation. We've got Ramesh from Prosimo. >> Thank you. >> Savannah: Welcome to the show. How is the show going for you? How's your voice? >> Oh my God. I woke up this morning and I could not hear my own voice. I'm like, this is not me. I think it's the dry air here, so if I cough, I apologize in advance. But no, the show has been great. It's been nonstop at the booth. It's wonderful to see all the customers in one place so you don't have to schedule lots of meetings spread across three, four weeks. So you get to >> Savannah: Right. I, yeah >> So yesterday was like eight to six, nonstop and it was awesome, right? Because you get to meet all these guys. The other important thing is the focus on the right layer, right? Like, I loved the keynote from Adam. It was about applications, services, data. Nowhere in there was there like infrastructure. Like we are infrastructure, right? I actually love that because that's where the focus should be and that's what customers are caring about right? So it's, it's been great so far. >> Yeah. I'm so happy to hear your booth's packed. I know exactly what you mean. I mean, we're going to be talking about optimization. It's a theme, but we also optimize our time here >> Ramesh: Yeah. >> on the show floor by getting to engage with our community. Prosimo's been around for three years just in case folks aren't familiar, give us the pitch. >> Sure. We are in the cloud networking space, solving for two problems. What happens within the cloud as you bring up VPCs, vnet and workloads, how are they able to talk to each other, secure each other, and how to use those access workloads? Those are the two problems that we solve for. It stemmed from really us seeing a complete diversion in what cloud wants versus what network really focuses on. Cloud has been always focused on applications and speed of operations and network has always been about reliability, scalability, and robust architecture. And we didn't really see these things come together. So that's when prosimo was born. >> So what are some of the surprises newcomers to the cloud may encounter with networking, with cloud networking that was not a factor when they were fully on-prem? >> So the first thing is in the cloud, you can't deal with the workload the same way you dealt with in the data center. In the data center, you usually had pools of service. They were all allocated some level of addressing. And it was not about the workload, it was more about the identity, IP addresses and so forth. In the cloud, those things have completely gotten demolished, right? You have to refer to a S3 service as an S3 service. It's not an IP endpoint. IP endpoint comes and goes, right? >> Savannah: Yeah. >> And so you have to completely shift around that, right? >> Now, this actually challenges almost 10 years, 12, 20 years maybe, of networking that we knew about, right? So that's why cloud networking is almost night and day difference compared to regular networking right? And, we're seeing that and that's what we are really helping customers with. >> What are some of the trends that you're seeing? I, well actually, let me ask you this question. Do you, is there an industry or vertical you work with specifically? I would imagine most people across, >> Ramesh: The Yeah, across. >> Yeah. >> Anybody that has workloads in the cloud right? >> Yeah, right. >> Ramesh: That's, >> I mean I can't imagine any companies that would have that. >> Exactly. (Savannah laughs) >> What are some of the trends that you're seeing? I know we talk about time to value. We talk about cost optimization. Is that the top priority for your customers? >> Yeah. Up until end of last year, a lot of the focus was about speed of operations. And so people would look at what are the type of workloads? How do I enable things? How do I empower my development team? So, if I'm the cloud platform team responsible for connecting, securing and making sure my applications can get deployed smooth and fast, that was the primary focus. Fast forward to this year, we started to see this a little bit at the beginning of the year. Now it's in full force. It's about cost control, right? It's about egress charges coming out of the cloud. Suddenly the cloud bill and every single line item on the cloud bill is in focus, right? And so that has a direct impact on what does this mean for networking. Cloud networking for many may not be familiar, it's about 14% of the cloud bill. And so anything that materially moves the needle on the cloud networking costs can actually have a have a big impact, right? And so we have seen the focus on the speed of operations are still there but cloud cost control has become a big part of it. >> So where are the excesses? I mean, it's, it's a big part of the bill. Where can company, where do companies typically waste money in networking costs? >> So, if you bring a person who understands networking and networking architecture really, really well, they'll can build a solid architecture, but they'll not focus on operations and automation. If you bring a 25 year old, they will automate the heck out of it. They know python day in and day out. And so they'll automate the heck out of it but it will not be with a robust architecture, right? And so you, on one hand, you end up wasting because you do things very suboptimally. It's a solid architecture, it's a really good design but it's really bad for operations. In the other hand, with push of a button you can get anything done but underneath the covers, underneath the hood, if you look at it, it's a mess, right? And so you have more competence than necessary. And so, what customers want is really a best of both, right? You need solid architecture that has all the right principles but also you need the automation so that you don't employ four, five people and a whole toolkit in order to make things work, right? And that's where we see most of the efficiencies come from >> You said you were you were super busy at your booth. Do customers understand that this is a problem now? >> So more so now than I would say last year. The last reinvent when we had a session. >> Yeah. >> We had to educate a lot of people on these are the requirements for cloud networking. Thanks to Gartner, thanks to many of the sessions you guys have been doing as well. The focus and the education for what cloud networking requires has started to come about. Now, this is where the savviness of the customer is important, right? Like there are customers in different stages of their journey. Those that have been operating in the cloud for three years plus, know that they've crossed that initial phase, right? Like you have basic hygiene, you have certain things and moving from hundreds of VPCs to maybe about thousand, right? And so at that time, the set of challenges I need to work with are very, very different, right? So now increasingly we are seeing at the booth the challenges are, "Hey, I know how to operate in the cloud". Right? Like, "Don't talk to me about that." Right? "But how do I get from hundred to a thousand?" Because I have a gun to my head. My CIO has said, I need to decommission my data centers in the next couple of years and I need to go all in on cloud. Help me with that, right? And so it's the, I wouldn't call it like massive scale it's the scale from kind of the trivial to the next stage that's actually causing a lot of these problems to surface. >> It's that layer of transformation. >> Ramesh: Yeah. It's when you've made the commitment and now we've got to catch everything up >> [Ramesh} exactly. >> across the company locations and probably a variety of different silos doing different things. >> Ramesh: Exactly. Yeah. >> Super complex. So, how do folks get started with you? >> Yeah, so typically we start with like, even if the customer says, "Here's what my blueprint looks like." We say, "Bring two regions." That's it, two regions, a few workloads. We'll help you set up the connectivity, set up the secure access required, set up the foundational things There's a certain level of automation, right? Let's get to that point because governance is different. The cloud privileges are different so let's work through all of that, right? Usually this takes about a week or so. The actual proof of concept, proof of value can be done in a day, but getting permissions and what not takes about, about a week, right? And once you show two regions then it's actually game on, right? Then you go from 10 VPCs to a hundred to a thousand and it's just like one to one thing after another. So that's usually how we see customers get started. We have a full stack that covers kind of what does this mean for the network to application services to kind of layer seven and so forth. We tell the customer, as much as we want you to focus on the entire stack, let's start with one, right? Start baby steps, start with one. Because for many, cloud itself is, I wouldn't say new but they're in a region that's not comfortable, right? So you wannna, you don't want to throw too much at them. >> Savannah: Right. >> So we help them kind of progressively move towards different types of workplace. >> Savannah: Yeah. >> And you have a multicloud story as well. >> Ramesh: That's correct. >> So when companies begin to cross clouds with workloads, move them between clouds, what kinds of issues emerge then? >> Yeah, so there are two parts for this, right? There is the AWS and data center and then there is the AWS plus other clouds. Two different set of problems, actually, >> Paul: Hm-hmm. Hm-hmm. The AWS plus connectivity, back into my data center almost every single enterprise. We deal with kind of the global 2000. Every single one of them has that, right? And so we kind of, we go through a series of steps, come up with an architecture, deploy a solution. After that, it's, Hey, I have BigQuery in Google that needs to talk back to an S3 bucket out here. Like, no networking solution can help you with that. Like, you need like cloud native principles in order to come into the picture. So increasingly we are seeing requests for, hey I have a distributed workload. It's not, it's not that one single application is spread across multiple clouds, but I have these islands of workloads that all need to talk to each other. >> Paul: Right. And what I don't want to do is actually build highways that actually connect all these things together because that's a waste of time. I actually want to make sure that only these applications that care about the talking to each other, are allowed to talk to each other. So that's kind of one foundational thing that we see. A few others are around compliance and governance. So we say, Hey, if I'm a retailer, I need to have some workloads in Azure some in the GCP and so forth. So it depends on kind of the industry compliance, regulatory requirements and so forth. >> So many different needs >> Ramesh: Exactly. for so many different types of companies. But also, you know, creating that efficiency is so great. >> Ramesh: Yup. >> And especially that time to value tune, cost reduction >> Ramesh: Yup. doing a lot of great things for your customers. There's a note on my run sheet here that you've seen some success with Topgolf and I suspect we have some golfers in the audience. John even used to be a caddy. We had a caddy segment with someone who was a pro caddy. Drew, when we were at Cape Con. Tell us about that story. >> So it was a really wild idea. We said, okay people are going to be walking around 22,000 steps right? >> Savannah: Yeah. >> And so >> Like Paul, >> And, they're going to be talking to people, listening to sessions. So we said, let's, what do most others do? You set up some time in a restaurant, you come, you have a social time, and what not. We said, let's give people something different. So we reserve the Topgolf here and we opened it up. We initially paid for a certain number of things. It's actually gone three x of that right now. So we had in the Topgolf, can you give us like the entire thing? I think people just want to go do something different, right? >> Savannah: Yeah. >> And of course the topic is important but equally important is like, I just want to have a good time, right? >> Yeah. And if you, hit a few And there you go. >> It doesn't have to relate back to network >> Cloud, network. >> Yeah, exactly. And so >> Well, it's all about building community. >> Exactly. >> And especially right now, we all, you know, we're stronger together. >> Ramesh: Yup. We're entering a unique time, we're coming out of a unique time. >> Ramesh: Exactly. >> And, no, I think that's great. And we actually do a swag segment here on theCUBE, differentiating on the show floor. I mean, it's clear because of how thoughtful you are >> Ramesh: Yeah. there's a reason that your, that your booth is so busy. >> Ramesh: That's right. >> So what's next? What can you, can you give us a little sneak preview? What's coming out for you? >> Yeah, so, I'm sensitive and sympathetic to all the macroeconomic conditions that are happening but there's been, we have not skipped a beat. So our business is growing really well. Thanks to all the things that are happening in the cloud. Increasingly, folks are looking at, you know, how how do I move in mass into the cloud? And so a few themes have come about as a result. One, certainly around cost control. How do I, how do I make, how do we make sure that we help our customers in that journey, right? So we have a few things around those lines. Modernization, especially after you go through the first few workloads, the next few that come about are invariably modern workloads. And modern workloads is this sensitive thing where I think the ultra savvy developers know what to do but the infrastructure guys don't know what to do in order to serve, right? And so we have actually developed a set of capabilities to help with that kind of modernization, right? Because it's not enough if your apps are modernized, your infrastructure that serves the apps also need to be modernized. And so those are the, those are the things and certainly, getting our customers less than us. We want to get our customers to talk. And so you'll see quite a bit of that as well. >> I want to ask you about a statement that was in the notes that we were reading, running up this interview. Zero Trust network access is the next solution that will be disrupted. What do you mean by that? >> So, when we started the company about three years ago, zero test network access was there. It was about maybe two, three years old at that time. And so we said, it needs to be done differently in the cloud. Why? Because you are a user. You're trying to access an application in the cloud. Do you care what's in the middle? You really don't, you just want to be able to open up your laptop, go to dub dub something.com and you should be able to access, right? But that's not how the experience is today. There's invariably something that comes, a middle mile solution that comes in the middle, right? And then the guy needs to operationalize all of that. And that now passes on to you. You need to launch a an agent on your thing, connect into something. It just brings a lot of complexity, right? So we looked at that problem and we said, cloud has done really really a few things really, really well, right? It's literally at your doorstep. Cloud presence is literally at your doorstep. So as you open up your browser, connect from your home, I don't need anything in the middle. I am jumping straight into the cloud. And so when you do that, then you actually have the luxury of bringing a few capabilities to the entry point of the cloud so that security can be done better, posture control can be done better and so on and so forth. So we developed those capabilities almost three years ago. We have quite a few large enterprises that have deployed this. And we fundamentally believe on building on top of the hyperscale network because billions of tens of billions of dollars go into the investment here. And we want to be building a layer of value on top, right? And so we've been working closely with our AWS buddies here and actually built capabilities so that the infrastructure presence, the massive reach and also the underlying capabilities for zero trust are provided. But what the customer regains in terms of value is through our platform, right? And so we'll see a whole lot more innovation along these lines. Probably bad news for the Middle Mile provider who sit in the, in the middle because hey AWS is literally at your doorstep, so you have to rethink your strategy. >> Going to be a lot of agility >> Ramesh: Yes, absolutely. >> In a very different context than we normally use it in Nerdland. And no, I think that's great. So we have, it's an exciting time for you as a company. We have a new challenge here at Reinvent. >> Okay. >> On theCUBE. I know you're a venerable alumni. >> Yep. >> You have been on theCUBE multiple times with multiple companies which is very impressive. Which says a lot about you. Although given how fun this interview's been, I'm not surprised. Give us your 30 second, Instagram real highlight, sound bite on the biggest or most important theme or takeaway from this year's show. >> From this show? Yeah, so if you look across the keynotes in all the sessions, the focus is on data, services and the applications. So the biggest takeaway I would offer anybody is focus on that first because that's where the outcome needs to shine. The rest of the stuff is a means to an end. I am an infrastructure guy through and through, I have been for the last 20 years. It hurts me to say infrastructure is a means to end but it is, right. Let the people dealing with the infrastructure deal with the infrastructure. If you are a customer or a client of the service, focus on the outcome, focus on the apps, focus on the services focus on on the data. That would be the biggest takeaway. >> Savannah: I appreciate your >> Paul: Words of wisdom >> Savannah: transparency. Yeah, no, exactly. Words of wisdom and very honest words of wisdom. Really great to talk to you about intelligent infrastructure. >> Absolutely. >> Savannah: Thank you so much for being on the show, Ramesh. >> Thank you. >> Savannah: It's been, it's been awesome. Paul, it's always a pleasure. >> Likewise. Thank you all for tuning in today here live from the show floor at AWS, reinvent in beautiful sin city, in the high desert and the high end dry desert with Paul Gillin. My name is Savannah Peterson and you're watching theCUBE, the leader in high tech coverage. (gentle music)

(bright upbeat music) >> Greetings, brilliant community and thank you so much for tuning in to theCUBE here for the last three days where we've been live from Detroit, Michigan. I've had the pleasure of spending this week with Lisa Martin and John Furrier. Thank you both so much for hanging out, for inviting me into the CUBE family. It's our first show together, it's been wonderful. >> Thank you. >> You nailed it. >> Oh thanks, sweetheart. >> Great job. Great job team, well done. Free wall to wall coverage, it's what we do. We stay till everyone else-- >> Savannah: 100 percent. >> Everyone else leaves, till they pull the plug. >> Lisa: Till they turn the lights out. We're still there. >> Literally. >> Literally last night. >> Still broadcasting. >> Whatever takes to get the stories and get 'em out there at scale. >> Yeah. >> Great time. >> 33. 33 different segments too. Very impressive. John, I'm curious, you're a trend watcher and you've been at every single KubeCon. >> Yep. >> What are the trends this year? Give us the breakdown. >> I think CNCF does this, it's a hard job to balance all the stakeholders. So one, congratulations to the CNCF for another great KubeCon and CloudNativeCon. It is really hard to balance bringing in the experts who, as time goes by, seven years we've been all of, as you said, you get experts, you get seniority, and people who can be mentors, 60% new people. You have vendors who are sponsoring and there's always people complaining and bitching and moaning. They want this, they want that. It's always hard and they always do a good job of balancing it. We're lucky that we get to scale the stories with CUBE and that's been great. We had some great stories here, but it's a great community and again, they're inclusive. As I've said before, we've talked about it. This year though is an inflection point in my opinion, because you're seeing the developer ecosystem growing so fast. It's global. You're seeing events pop up, you're seeing derivative events. CNCF is at the center point and they have to maintain the culture of developer experts, maintainers, while balancing the newbies. And that's going to be >> Savannah: Mm-hmm. really hard. And they've done a great job. We had a great conversation with them. So great job. And I think it's going to continue. I think the attendance metric is a little bit of a false positive. There's a lot of online people who didn't come to Detroit this year. And I think maybe the combination of the venue, the city, or just Covid preferences may not look good on paper, on the numbers 'cause it's not a major step up in attendance. It's still bigger, but the community, I think, is going to continue to grow. I'm bullish on it. >> Yeah, I mean at least we did see double the number of people that we had in Los Angeles. Very curious. I think Amsterdam, where we'll be next with CNCF in the spring, in April. I think that's actually going to be a better pulse check. We'll be in Europe, we'll see what's going on. >> John: Totally. >> I mean, who doesn't like Amsterdam in the springtime? Lisa, what have been some of your observations? >> Oh, so many observations. The evolution of the conference, the hallway track conversations really shifting towards adjusting to the enterprise. The enterprise momentum that we saw here as well. We had on the show, Ford. >> Savannah: Yes. We had MassMutual, we had ING, that was today. Home Depot is here. We are seeing all these big companies that we know and love, become software companies right before our eyes. >> Yeah. Well, and I think we forget that software powers our entire world. And so of course they're going to have to be here. So much running on Kubernetes. It's on-prem, it's at the edge, it's everywhere. It's exciting. Woo, I'm excited. John, what do you think is the number one story? This is your question. I love asking you this question. What is the number one story out KubeCon? >> Well, I think the top story is a combination of two things. One is the evolution of Cloud Native. We're starting to see web assembly. That's a big hyped up area. It got a lot of attention. >> Savannah: Yeah. That's kind of teething out the future. >> Savannah: Rightfully so. The future of this kind of lightweight. You got the heavy duty VMs, you got Kubernetes and containers, and now this web assembly, shows a trajectory of apps, server-like environment. And then the big story is security. Software supply chain is, to me, was the number one consistent theme. At almost all the interviews, in the containers, and the workflows, >> Savannah: Very hot. software supply chain is real. The CD Foundation mentioned >> Savannah: Mm-hmm. >> they had 16,000 vulnerabilities identified in their code base. They were going to automate that. So again, >> Savannah: That was wild. >> That's the top story. The growth of open source exposes potential vulnerabilities with security. So software supply chain gets my vote. >> Did you hear anything that surprised you? You guys did this great preview of what you thought we were going to hear and see and feel and touch at KubeCon, CloudNativeCon 2022. You talked about, for example, the, you know, healthcare financial services being early adopters of this. Anything surprise either one of you in terms of what you predicted versus what we saw? Savannah, let's start with you. >> You know what really surprised me, and this is ironic, so I'm a community gal by trade. But I was really just impressed by the energy that everyone brought here and the desire to help. The thing about the open source community that always strikes me is, I mean 187 different countries participating. You've got, I believe it's something like 175,000 people contributing to the 140 projects plus that CNCF is working on. But that culture of collaboration extends far beyond just the CNCF projects. Everyone here is keen to help each other. We had the conversation just before about the teaching and the learnings that are going on here. They brought in Detroit's students to come and learn, which is just the most heartwarming story out of this entire thing. And I think it's just the authenticity of everyone in this community and their passion. Even though I know it's here, it still surprises me to see it in the flesh. Especially in a place like Detroit. >> It's nice. >> Yeah. >> It's so nice to see it. And you bring up a good point. It's very authentic. >> Savannah: It's super authentic. >> I mean, what surprised me is one, the Wasm, or web assembly. I didn't see that coming at the scale of the conversation. It sucked a lot of options out of the room in my opinion, still hyped up. But this looks like it's got a good trajectory. I like that. The other thing that surprised me that was a learning was my interview with Solo.io, Idit, and Brian Gracely, because he's a CUBE alumni and former host of theCUBE, and analyst at Wikibon, was how their go-to-market was an example of a modern company in Covid with a clean sheet of paper and smart people, they're just doing things different. They're in Slack with their customers. And I walked away with, "Wow that's like a playbook that's not, was never, in the go-to-market VC-backed company playbook." I thought that was, for me, a personal walk away saying that's important. I like how they did that. And there's a lot of companies I think could learn from that. Especially as the recession comes where partnering with customers has always been a top priority. And how they did that was very clever, very effective, very efficient. So I walked away with that saying, "I think that's going to be a standard." So that was a pleasant surprise. >> That was a great surprise. Also, that's a female-founded company, which is obviously not super common. And the growth that they've experienced, to your point, really being catalyzed by Covid, is incredibly impressive. I mean they have some massive brand name customers, Amex, BMW for example. >> Savannah: Yeah. >> Great point. >> And I interviewed her years ago and I remember saying to myself, "Wow, she's impressive." I liked her. She's a player. A player for sure. And she's got confidence. Even on the interview she said, "We're just better, we have better product." And I just like the point of view. Very customer-focused but confident. And I just took, that's again, a great company. And again, I'm not surprised that Brian Gracely left Red Hat to go work there. So yeah, great, great call there. And of course other things that weren't surprising that I predicted, Red Hat continued to invest. They continue to bring people on theCUBE, they support theCUBE but more importantly they have a good strategy. They're in that multicloud positioning. They're going to have an opportunity to get a bite at the apple. And I what I call the supercloud. As enterprises try to go and be mainstream, Cloud Native, they're going to need some help. And Red Hat is always has the large enterprise customers. >> Savannah: What surprised you, Lisa? >> Oh my gosh, so many things. I think some of the memorable conversations that we had. I love talking with some of the enterprises that we mentioned, ING Bank for example. You know, or institutions that have been around for 100 plus years. >> Savannah: Oh, yeah. To see not only how much they've innovated and stayed relevant to meet the demands of the consumer, which are only increasing, but they're doing so while fostering a culture of innovation and a culture that allows these technology leaders to really grow within the organization. That was a really refreshing conversation that I think we had. 'Cause you can kind of >> Savannah: Absolutely. think about these old stodgy companies. Nah, of course they're going to digitize. >> Thinking about working for the bank, I think it's boring. >> Right? >> Yeah. And they were talking about, in fact, those great t-shirts that they had on, >> Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. were all about getting more people to understand how fun it is to work in tech for ING Bank in different industries. You don't just have to work for the big tech companies to be doing really cool stuff in technology. >> What I really liked about this show is we had two female hosts. >> Savannah: Yeah. >> How about that? Come on. >> Hey, well done, well done on your recruitment there, champ. >> Yes, thank you boss. (John laughs) >> And not to mention we have a really all-star production team. I do just want to give them a little shout out. To all the wonderful folks behind the lines here. (people clapping) >> John: Brendan. Good job. >> Yeah. Without Brendan, Anderson, Noah, and Andrew, we would be-- >> Of course Frank Faye holding it back there too. >> Yeah, >> Of course, Frank. >> I mean, without the business development wheels on the ship we'd really be in an unfortunate spot. I almost just swore on television. We're not going to do that. >> It's okay. No one's regulating. >> Yeah. (all laugh) >> Elon Musk just took over Twitter. >> It was a close call. >> That's right! >> It's going to be a hellscape. >> Yeah, I mean it's, shit's on fire. So we'll just see what happens next. I do, I really want to talk about this because I think it's really special. It's an ethos and some magic has happened here. Let's talk about Detroit. Let's talk about what it means to be here. We saw so many, and I can't stress this enough, but I think it really matters. There was a commitment to celebrating place here. Lisa, did you notice this too? >> Absolutely. And it surprised me because we just don't see that at conferences. >> Yeah. We're so used to going to the same places. >> Right. >> Vegas. Vegas, Vegas. More Vegas. >> Your tone-- >> San Francisco >> (both laugh) sums up my feelings. Yes. >> Right? >> Yeah. And, well, it's almost robotic but, and the fact that we're like, oh Detroit, really? But there was so much love for this city and recognizing and supporting its residents that we just don't see at conferences. You uncovered a lot of that with your swag-savvy segments, >> Savannah: Yeah. >> And you got more of that to talk about today. >> Don't worry, it's coming. Yeah. (laughs) >> What about you? Have you enjoyed Detroit? I know you hadn't been here in a long time, when we did our intro session. >> I think it's a bold move for the CNCF to come here and celebrate. What they did, from teaching the kids in the city some tech, they had a session. I thought that was good. >> Savannah: Loved that. I think it was a risky move because a lot of people, like, weren't sure if they were going to fly to Detroit. So some say it might impact the attendance. I thought they did a good job. Their theme, Road Ahead. Nice tie in. >> Savannah: Yeah. And so I think I enjoyed Detroit. The weather was great. It didn't rain. Nice breeze outside. >> Yeah. >> The weather was great, the restaurants are phenomenal. So Detroit's a good city. I missed some hockey games. I'd love to see the Red Wings play. Missed that game. But we always come back. >> I think it's really special. I mean, every time I talked to a company about their swag, that had sourced it locally, there was a real reason for this story. I mean even with Kasten in that last segment when I noticed that they had done Carhartt beanies, Carhartt being a Michigan company. They said, "I'm so glad you noticed. That's why we did it." And I think that type of, the community commitment to place, it all comes back to community. One of the bigger themes of the show. But that passion and that support, we need more of that. >> Lisa: Yeah. >> And the thing about the guests we've had this past three days have been phenomenal. We had a diverse set of companies, individuals come on theCUBE, you know, from Scott Johnston at Docker. A really one on one. We had a great intense conversation. >> Savannah: Great way to kick it off. >> We shared a lot of inside baseball, about Docker, super important company. You know, impressed with companies like Platform9 it's been around since the OpenStack days who are now in a relevant position. Rafi Systems, hot startup, they don't have a lot of resources, a lot of guerilla marketing going on. So I love to see the mix of startups really contributing. The big players are here. So it's a real great mix of companies. And I thought the interviews were phenomenal, like you said, Ford. We had, Kubia launched on theCUBE. >> Savannah: Yes. >> That's-- >> We snooped the location for KubeCon North America. >> You did? >> Chicago, everyone. In case you missed it, Bianca was nice enough to share that with us. >> We had Sarbjeet Johal, CUBE analyst came on, Keith Townsend, yesterday with you guys. >> We had like analyst speed dating last night. (all laugh) >> How'd that go? (laughs) >> It was actually great. One of the things that they-- >> Did they hug and kiss at the end? >> Here's the funny thing is that they were debating the size of the CNC app. One thinks it's too big, one thinks it's too small. And I thought, is John Goldilocks? (John laughs) >> Savannah: Yeah. >> What is John going to think about that? >> Well I loved that segment. I thought, 'cause Keith and Sarbjeet argue with each other on Twitter all the time. And I heard Keith say before, he went, "Yeah let's have it out on theCUBE." So that was fun to watch. >> Thank you for creating this forum for us to have that kind of discourse. >> Lisa: Yes, thank you. >> Well, it wouldn't be possible without the sponsors. Want to thank the CNCF. >> Absolutely. >> And all the ecosystem partners and sponsors that make theCUBE possible. We love doing this. We love getting the stories. No story's too small for theCUBE. We'll go with it. Do whatever it takes. And if it wasn't for the sponsors, the community wouldn't get all the great knowledge. So, and thank you guys. >> Hey. Yeah, we're, we're happy to be here. Speaking of sponsors and vendors, should we talk a little swag? >> Yeah. >> What do you guys think? All right. Okay. So now this is becoming a tradition on theCUBE so I'm very delighted, the savvy swag segment. I do think it's interesting though. I mean, it's not, this isn't just me shouting out folks and showing off t-shirts and socks. It's about standing out from the noise. There's a lot of players in this space. We got a lot of CNCF projects and one of the ways to catch the attention of people walking the show floor is to have interesting swag. So we looked for the most unique swag on Wednesday and I hadn't found this yet, but I do just want to bring it up. Oops, I think I might have just dropped it. This is cute. Is, most random swag of the entire show goes to this toothbrush. I don't really have more in terms of the pitch there because this is just random. (Lisa laughs) >> But so, everyone needs that. >> John: So what's their tagline? >> And you forget these. >> Yeah, so the idea was to brush your cloud bills. So I think they're reducing the cost of-- >> Kind of a hygiene angle. >> Yeah, yeah. Very much a hygiene angle, which I found a little ironic in this crowd to be completely honest with you. >> John: Don't leave the lights on theCUBE. That's what they say. >> Yeah. >> I mean we are theCUBE so it would be unjust of me not to show you a Rubik's cube. This is actually one of those speed cubes. I'm not going to be able to solve this for you with one hand on camera, but apparently someone did it in 17 seconds at the booth. Knowing this audience, not surprising to me at all. Today we are, and yesterday, was the t-shirt contest. Best t-shirt contest. Today we really dove into the socks. So this is, I noticed this trend at KubeCon in Los Angeles last year. Lots of different socks, clouds obviously a theme for the cloud. I'm just going to lay these out. Lots of gamers in the house. Not surprising. Here on this one. >> John: Level up. >> Got to level up. I love these 'cause they say, "It's not a bug." And anyone who's coded has obviously had to deal with that. We've got, so Star Wars is a huge theme here. There's Lego sets. >> John: I think it's Star Trek. But. >> That's Star Trek? >> John: That's okay. >> Could be both. (Lisa laughs) >> John: Nevermind, I don't want to. >> You can flex your nerd and geek with us anytime you want, John. I don't mind getting corrected. I'm all about, I'm all about the truth. >> Star Trek. Star Wars. Okay, we're all the same. Okay, go ahead. >> Yeah, no, no, this is great. Slim.ai was nice enough to host us for dinner on Tuesday night. These are their lovely cloud socks. You can see Cloud Native, obviously Cloud Native Foundation, cloud socks, whole theme here. But if we're going to narrow it down to some champions, I love these little bee elephants from Raft. And when I went up to these guys, I actually probably would've called these my personal winner. They said, again, so community focused and humble here at CNCF, they said that Wiz was actually the champion according to the community. These unicorn socks are pretty excellent. And I have to say the branding is flawless. So we'll go ahead and give Wiz the win on the best sock contest. >> John: For the win. >> Yeah, Wiz for the win. However, the thing that I am probably going to use the most is this really dope Detroit snapback from Kasten. So I'm going to be rocking this from now on for the rest of the segment as well. And I feel great about this snapback. >> Looks great. Looks good on you. >> Yeah. >> Thanks John. (John laughs) >> So what are we expecting between now and KubeCon in Amsterdam? >> Well, I think it's going to be great to see how they, the European side, it's a chill show. It's great. Brings in the European audience from the global perspective. I always love the EU shows because one, it's a great destination. Amsterdam's going to be a great location. >> Savannah: I'm pumped. >> The American crowd loves going over there. All the event cities that they choose are always awesome. I missed Valencia cause I got Covid. I'm really bummed about that. But I love the European shows. It's just a little bit, it's high intensity, but it's the European chill. They got a little bit more of that siesta vibe going on. >> Yeah. >> And it's just awesome. >> Yeah, >> And I think that the mojo that carried throughout this week, it's really challenging to not only have a show that's five days, >> but to go through all week, >> Savannah: Seriously. >> to a Friday at 4:00 PM Eastern Time, and still have the people here, the energy and all the collaboration. >> Savannah: Yeah. >> The conversations that are still happening. I think we're going to see a lot more innovation come spring 2023. >> Savannah: Mm-hmm. >> Yeah. >> So should we do a bet, somebody's got to buy dinner? Who, well, I guess the folks who lose this will buy dinner for the other one. How many attendees do you think we'll see in Amsterdam? So we had 4,000, >> Oh, I'm going to lose this one. >> roughly in Los Angeles. Priyanka was nice enough to share with us, there was 8,000 here in Detroit. And I'm talking in person, we're not going to meddle this with the online. >> 6500. >> Lisa: I was going to say six, six K. >> I'm going 12,000. >> Ooh! >> I'm going to go ahead and go big I'm going to go opposite Price Is Right. >> One dollar. >> Yeah. (all laugh) That's exactly where I was driving with it. I'm going, I'm going absolutely all in. I think the momentum here is building. I think if we look at the numbers from-- >> John: You could go Family Feud >> Yeah, yeah, exactly. And they mentioned that they had 11,000 people who have taken their Kubernetes course in that first year. If that's a benchmark and an indicator, we've got the veteran players here. But I do think that, I personally think that the hype of Kubernetes has actually preceded adoption. If you look at the data and now we're finally tipping over. I think the last two years we were on the fringe and right now we're there. It's great. (voice blares loudly on loudspeaker) >> Well, on that note (all laugh) On that note, actually, on that note, as we are talking, so I got to give cred to my cohosts. We deal with a lot of background noise here on theCUBE. It is a live show floor. There's literally someone on an e-scooter behind me. There's been Pong going on in the background. The sound will haunt the three of us for the rest of our lives, as well as the production crew. (Lisa laughs) And, and just as we're sitting here doing this segment last night, they turned the lights off on us, today they're letting everyone know that the event is over. So on that note, I just want to say, Lisa, thank you so much. Such a warm welcome to the team. >> Thank you. >> John, what would we do without you? >> You did an amazing job. First CUBE, three days. It's a big show. You got staying power, I got to say. >> Lisa: Absolutely. >> Look at that. Not bad. >> You said it on camera now. >> Not bad. >> So you all are stuck with me. (all laugh) >> A plus. Great job to the team. Again, we do so much flow here. Brandon, Team, Andrew, Noah, Anderson, Frank. >> They're doing our hair, they're touching up makeup. They're helping me clean my teeth, staying hydrated. >> We look good because of you. >> And the guests. Thanks for coming on and spending time with us. And of course the sponsors, again, we can't do it without the sponsors. If you're watching this and you're a sponsor, support theCUBE, it helps people get what they need. And also we're do a lot more segments around community and a lot more educational stuff. >> Savannah: Yeah. So we're going to do a lot more in the EU and beyond. So thank you. >> Yeah, thank you. And thank you to everyone. Thank you to the community, thank you to theCUBE community and thank you for tuning in, making it possible for us to have somebody to talk to on the other side of the camera. My name is Savannah Peterson for the last time in Detroit, Michigan. Thanks for tuning into theCUBE. >> Okay, we're done. (bright upbeat music)

>>Good afternoon everyone, and welcome back to Cuan where my cohost John Farer and I are broadcasting live, along with Lisa Martin from Cuan Detroit, Michigan. We are joined this afternoon by two very interesting gentlemen who also happen to be legends on the cube. John, how long have you known the next few? They've, >>They've made their mark on the cube with Jerry Chen from Greylock was one of our most attended cube guests. He's a VC partner at Greylock and an investor and this company that just launched their new cloud observability platform should be a great segment. >>Well, I'm excited. I are. Are you excited? Should I string this out just a little bit longer? No, I won't. I won't do that to you. Please welcome Martin and Jeff from Chronosphere Martin. Jeff, thank you so much for being >>Here. Thank you for having us. Thank you. >>I noticed right away that you have raised a mammoth series C. Yeah. 200 million if I'm not mistaken. >>That is correct. >>Where's the company at? >>Yeah, so we raised that series C a year ago. In fact, we were just talking about it a year ago at Cub Con. Since then, at the time we're about 80 employees or so. Since then, we've tripled the headcount, so we're over 200 people. Casual, triple casual, triple of the headcount. Yeah. Luckily it was the support of business, which is also tripled in the last year. So we're very lucky from that perspective as well. And a couple of other things we're pretty proud of last year. We've had a hundred percent customer retention, which is always a great thing to have as a SaaS platform there. >>Real metric if you've had a hundred percent. I'm >>Kidding. It's a good metric to, to put out there if you had a hundred percent. I would say for sure. It's an A for sure and exactly welcome to meet >>Anyone else who's had a hundred percent >>Customer attention here at coupon this week and 90% of our customers are using more of the service and, and you know, therefore paying more for the service as well. So those are great science for us and I think it shows that we're clearly doing something right on the product side. I would say. And >>Last and last time you're on the cube. We're talking about about the right data. Not so much a lot of data, if I remember correctly. Yeah, a hundred percent. And that was a unique approach. Yeah, it's a data world on relative observability. And you guys just launched a new release of your platform, cloud native platform. What's new in the platform? Can you share an update on what you guys release? >>Yeah, well we did and, and you, you bring up a great point. You know, like it's not just in observably but overall data is exploding. Alright, so three things there. It's like, hey, can your platform even handle the explosion of data? Can it control it over time and make sure that as your business grows, the data doesn't continue explode at the same time. And then for the end users, can they make sense of all this data? Cuz what's the point of having it if the end users can't make sense of it? So actually our product announcement this time is a pretty big refresh of, of a lot of features in our, in our platform. And it actually tackles all three of these particular components. And I'll let Jeff, our head of product, Doug, >>You, you run product, you get the keys to the kingdom, I do product roadmap. People saying, Hey this, take this out. You're under a lot of pressure. What makes the platform platform a great observability product? >>So the keystone of what we do that's different is helping you control the data, right? As we're talking about there's an infinite amount of data. These systems are getting more and more and more complicated. A lot of what we do is help you understand the utility of the telemetry so that you can optimize for keeping and storing and paying for the data that's actually helpful as opposed to the stuff that isn't. >>What's the benefit now with observability, with all the noise out in the marketplace, there's been a shift over the past couple years. Cloud native at scale, you're seeing a lot more automation, almost a set to support the growth for more application development. We had a Docker CEO on earlier today, he said there are more applications being deployed in the past year than in the history of open source. So more and more apps are being deployed, more data's being generated. What's the key to observability right now that's gonna separate the winners from the losers? >>Yeah, I think, you know, not only are there more applications being deployed, but there are smaller and small applications being deployed mostly on containers these days more than if they, hence this conference gets larger and larger every year. Right? So, you know, I think the key is a can your system handle this data explosion is, is the first thing. Not only can it handle the data explosion, but you know, APM solutions have been around for a very long time and those were really introspecting into an application. Whereas these days what's more important is, well how is your application interfacing with every other application in your distributed architecture there, right? So the use case is slightly different there. And then to what Jeff was saying is like once the data is there, not only making use of what is actually useful to you, but then having the end user make sense of it. >>Because we, we, we always think about the technology changes. We forget that the end users are different now we used to have IT operations team operating everything and the developers would write the application, just throw it over the wall. These days the developers have to actually operate this thing in production. So the end users of these systems are very different as well. And you can imagine these are folks, your average developer as maybe not operated things for many years in production before. So they need to, that they need to pick up a new skill set, they need to use new tooling in order to, to do that. So yeah, it's, it's, >>And you got the developer persona, you got a developer that's building products for builders and developers that are building products to be consumed. So they're not, they're not really infrastructure builders, they're just app developers. >>Exactly. Exactly. That's right. And that's what a lot of the new functionality that we're introducing here at the show is all about is helping developers who build software by day and are on call by night, actually get in context. There's so much data chances of when that, when one of those pages goes off and your number comes up, that the problem happens to be in the part of the system that you know a lot about are pretty low, chances are you're gonna get bothered about something else. So we've built a feature, we call it collections that's about putting you in the right context and connecting you into the piece of the system where the problem is to orient you and to get you started. So instead of waiting through, through hundreds of millions of things, you're waiting through the stuff that's in the immediate neighborhood of where the >>Problem is. Yeah. To your point about data, you can't let it go unchecked. That's right. You gotta gotta understand that. And we were talking about containers again with, again with docker, you know, nuance point, but oh, scan your container. But not everyone's scanning the containers security nightmare, right? I mean, >>Well I think one of the things that I, I loved in reading the notes in preparation for you coming up is you've actually created cloud native observability with the goal of eliminating engineering burnout. And what you're talking about there is actually the cognitive burden of when things happen. Yeah, for sure. We we're, you know, we're not just designing for when everything goes right, You need to be prepared for when everything goes wrong and that poor lonely individual in the middle of the night has, it's >>A tough job. >>Has to navigate that >>And, and observability is just one thing you gotta mean like security is another thing. So, so many more things have been piled on top of the developer in addition to actually creating the application. Right? It is. There is a lot. And you know, observably is one of those key things you need to do your job. So as much as, as much as we can make that easier, that's a better bit. Like there are so many things being piled on right now. >>That's the holy grail right there. Because they don't want to be doing exactly >>The work. Exactly. They're not observability experts. >>Exactly. And automating that in. So where do you guys weigh in on the automation wave? Everything's automation. Yeah. Is that kind of a hand waving or what's going on? What's the reality? What's actually happening? >>Yeah, I think automation I think is key. You hear a lot of ai ml ops there. I, I don't know if I really believe in that or having a machine self heal itself or anything like that. But I think automation is key because there are a lot of repeatable tasks in a lot of what you're doing. So once you detect that something goes wrong, generally if you've seen it before, you know what the fix is. So I think automation plays a key on the sense that once it's detected again the second time, the third time, okay, I know what I did the previous time, let, let's make sure we can do that again. So automation I think is key. I think it helps a lot with the burnout. I dunno if I'd go as far as the >>Same burnout's a big deal. >>Well there's an example again in the, in the stuff we're releasing this week, a new feature we call query accelerator. That's a form of automation. Problem is you got all this data, mountain of data, put you in the right context so you're at least in the right neighborhood, but now you need to query it. You gotta get the data to actually inform the specific problem you're trying to solve. And the burden on the developer in that situation is really high. You have to know what you're looking for and you have to know how to efficiently ask for it. So you're not waiting for a long time and >>We >>Built a feature, you tell us what you want, we will figure out how to get it for you efficiently. That's the kind of automation that we're focused on. That's actually a good service. How can we, it >>Sounds >>Blissful. How can we accelerate and optimize what you were gonna do anyway, rather than trying to read your mind or predict the future. >>Yes, >>Savannah, some community forward. Yeah, I, I'm, so I'm curious, you, you clearly lead with a lot of empathy, both of you and, and putting your, well you probably have experience with this as well, but putting your mind or putting yourself in the mind to the developer are, what's that like for you from a product development standpoint? Are you doing a lot of community engagement? Are you talking to developers to try and anticipate what they're gonna be needing next in terms of, of your offering? Or how has that work >>For you? Oh, for sure. So, so I run product, I have a lot of product managers who work for me. Somebody that I used to work with, she was accusing me, but what she called, she called me an anthropologist of a product manager. I >>Get these kind of you, the very good design school vibes from you both of you, which >>Is, and the reason why she said the way you do this, you go and you live with them in order to figure out what a day in their life is really like, what the job is really like, what's easy, what's hard. And that's what we try to aim at and try to optimize for. So that's very much the way that we do all of >>Our work. And that's really also highlights the fact that we're in a market that requires acute realtime data from the customer. Cause it's, and it's all new data. Well >>Yeah, it's all changing. The tools change every day. I mean if we're not watching how, and >>So to your point, you need it in real time as well. The whole point of moving to cloud native is you have a reliable product or service there. And like if you need to wait a few minutes to even know that something's wrong, like you've already lost at that point, you've already lost a ton of customers, potentially. You've already lost a ton of business. You know, to your point about the, the community earlier, one other thing we're trying to do is also give back to the community a little bit. So actually two days ago we just announced the open source of a tool that we've been using in our product for a very long time. But of course our product is, is a paid product, right? But actually open source a part of that tool thus that the broader community can benefit as well. And that tool which, which tool is that? It's, it's called Prom lens. And it's actually the Prometheus project is the open sourced metrics project that everybody uses. So this is a query builder that helps developers understand how to create queries in a much more efficient way. We've had in our product for a long time, but we're like, let's give that back to the community so that the broader community of developers out there can have a much easier time creating these queries as well. What's >>Been the feedback? >>We only now it's two days ago so I'm not, I'm not exactly sure. I imagine >>It's great. They're probably playing with it right now. >>Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. For sure. I imagine. Great. >>Yeah, you guys mentioned burnout before and we heard this a lot now you mentioned in terms of data we've been hearing and reporting about Insta security world, which is also data specific observability ties right into security. Yep. How does a company figure out, first of all, burnout's a big problem. It's more and more data coming. It's like, it's like doesn't stop and the breaches are coming too. How does a company know when they need that their observability strategy is broken? Is there sig signs of you know, burnout? Is there signs of breaches? I mean, what are some of the tell signs that if I'm a CSO I go, you know what, maybe I should check out promisee. When do, when do you guys match in and go we're a perfect fit to solve that problem? >>Yeah, I, I would say, you know, because we're focused on the observability side, less so on the security side, some of those signals are like how many incidents do you have? How many outages do you have? What's the occurrence of these things and how long does it take to recover from from from these particular incidents? How >>Upsetting are we finding customers? >>Upsetting are >>Customer. Exactly. >>And and one trend was seeing >>Not churn happening. Exactly. >>And one trend we're seeing in the industry is that 68% of companies are saying that they're having more incidents over time. Right. And if you have more incidents, you can imagine more engineers are being paid, are being woken up and they're being put under more stress. And one thing you said that very interesting is, you know, I think generally in the observability world, you ideally actually don't want to figure out the problem when it goes wrong. Ideally what you want to do these days is figure out how do I remediate this and get the business back to a running state as quickly as I can. And then when the business isn't burning, let me go and figure out what the underlying root cause is. So the strategy there is changed as well from the APM days where like I don't want to figure out the problem in real time. I wanna make sure my business and my service is running as it should be. And then separately from that, once it is then I wanna go >>Under understand that assume it's gonna happen, be ready to close that isolate >>The >>Fire. Exactly. Exactly. And, and you know, you can imagine, you know the whole movement towards C I C D, like generally when you don't touch a system, nothing goes wrong. You deploy change, first thing you do is not figure out why you change break thing. Get that back like underplay that change roll that change back, get your business back to a estate and then take the time where you're not under pressure, you're not gonna be burnt out to figure out what was it about my change that that broke everything. So, yeah. Got >>It. >>Well it's not surprising that you've added some new exciting customers to the roster. We have. We have. You want to tell the audience who they might >>Be? Yes. It's been a few big names in the last year we're pretty excited about. One is Snapchat, I think everybody knows, knows that application And one is Robin Hood. So you know, you can imagine very large, I'll say tech forward companies that have completed their migrations to, to cloud native or a wallet on their way to Cloudnative and, and we like helping those customers for sure. We also like helping a lot of startups out there cause they start off in the cloud native world. Like if you're gonna build a business today, you're gonna use Kubernetes from day one. Right? But we're actually interestingly seeing more and more of is traditional enterprises who are just early, pretty early on in their cloudnative migration then now starting to adopt cloud native at scale and now they're running to the same problems. As well >>Said, the Gartner data last year was something like 85% of companies had not made that transformation. Right. So, and that, I mean that's looking at larger scale companies, obviously >>A hundred, you're >>Right on the pulse. They >>Have finished it, but a lot of them are starting it now. So we're seeing pilot >>Projects, testing and cadence. And I imagine it's a bit of a different pace when you're working with some of those transforming companies versus those startups that are, are just getting rolling. I >>Love and you know, you have a lot of legacy use case you have to, like, if you're a startup, you can imagine there's no baggage, there's no legacy. You're just starting brand new, right? If you're a large enterprise, you have to really think about, okay, well how do I get my active business moved over? But yeah. >>Yeah. And how do you guys see the whole cloud native scale moving with the hyper scales? Like aws? You've got a lot of multi-cloud conversation. We call it super cloud in our narrative, but there's now this new, we're gonna get some of common services being identified. We're seeing a, we're seeing a lot more people recognize and with Kubernetes that hey, you know what, you could get some common services maybe across clouds with SOS doing storage. We got Min iOS doing some storage. Yeah. Cloud flare, I mean starting to see a lot more non-hyper scale systems. >>Yeah, I mean I, and I think that's the pattern there and I think it, it's, especially for enterprise at the top end, right? You see a, a lot of companies are trying to de-risk by saying, Hey, I, I don't want to bet maybe on one cloud provider, I sort of need to hedge my bets a little bit. And Kubernetes is a great tool to go do that. You can imagine some of these other tools you mentioned is a great way to do that. Observability is another great way to do that. Or the cloud providers have their observability or monitoring tooling, but it's really optimized just for that cloud provider, just for those services there. So if you're really trying to run either your custom applications or a multi-cloud approach, you really can't use one cloud providers solution to go solve that problem. Do you >>Guys see yourselves with that unifying >>Layer? We, we, we are a little bit as that lay because it's agnostic to each of the cloud providers. And the other thing is we actually like to understand where our customers run and then try to run their observability stack on a different cloud provider. Cuz we use the cloud ourselves. We're not running our own data centers of course, but it's an interesting thing where everybody has a common dependency on the cloud provider. So when us e one ofs hate to call them out, but when us E one ofs goes down, imagine half the internet goes down, right? And that's the time that you actually need observability. Right? Seriously. And every other tooling there. So we try to find out where do you run and then we try to actually run you elsewhere. But yeah, >>I like that. And nobody wants to see the ugly bits anyway. Exactly. And we all know who when we're all using someone when everything >>Exactly. Exactly, exactly. >>People off the internet. So it's very, I, I really love that. Martin, Jeff, thank you so much for being here with us. Thank you. What's next? What, how do people find out, how do they get one of the jobs since three Xing your >>Employee growth? We're hiring a lot. I think the best thing is to go check out our website chronosphere.io. You'll find out a lot about our, our, our careers, our job openings, the culture we're trying to build here. Find out a lot about the product as well. If you do have an observability problem, like that's the best place to go to find out about that as well. Right. >>Fantastic. Well if you want to join a quarter billion, a quarter of a billion dollar rocket ship over here and certainly a unicorn, get in touch with Martin and Jeff. John, thank you so much for joining me for this very special edition and thank all of you for tuning in to the Cube live here from Motor City. My name's Savannah Peterson and we'll see you in a little bit. >>Robert Herbeck. People obviously know you from Shark Tanks, but the Herbeck group has been really laser focused on cyber security. So I actually helped to bring my.

hello I'm John Furrier with thecube and welcome to this special presentation of the cube and Horizon 3.ai they're announcing a global partner first approach expanding their successful pen testing product Net Zero you're going to hear from leading experts in their staff their CEO positioning themselves for a successful Channel distribution expansion internationally in Europe Middle East Africa and Asia Pacific in this Cube special presentation you'll hear about the expansion the expanse partner program giving Partners a unique opportunity to offer Net Zero to their customers Innovation and Pen testing is going International with Horizon 3.ai enjoy the program [Music] welcome back everyone to the cube and Horizon 3.ai special presentation I'm John Furrier host of thecube we're here with Jennifer Lee head of Channel sales at Horizon 3.ai Jennifer welcome to the cube thanks for coming on great well thank you for having me so big news around Horizon 3.aa driving Channel first commitment you guys are expanding the channel partner program to include all kinds of new rewards incentives training programs help educate you know Partners really drive more recurring Revenue certainly cloud and Cloud scale has done that you got a great product that fits into that kind of Channel model great Services you can wrap around it good stuff so let's get into it what are you guys doing what are what are you guys doing with this news why is this so important yeah for sure so um yeah we like you said we recently expanded our Channel partner program um the driving force behind it was really just um to align our like you said our Channel first commitment um and creating awareness around the importance of our partner ecosystems um so that's it's really how we go to market is is through the channel and a great International Focus I've talked with the CEO so you know about the solution and he broke down all the action on why it's important on the product side but why now on the go to market change what's the what's the why behind this big this news on the channel yeah for sure so um we are doing this now really to align our business strategy which is built on the concept of enabling our partners to create a high value high margin business on top of our platform and so um we offer a solution called node zero it provides autonomous pen testing as a service and it allows organizations to continuously verify their security posture um so we our company vision we have this tagline that states that our pen testing enables organizations to see themselves Through The Eyes of an attacker and um we use the like the attacker's perspective to identify exploitable weaknesses and vulnerabilities so we created this partner program from a perspective of the partner so the partner's perspective and we've built It Through The Eyes of our partner right so we're prioritizing really what the partner is looking for and uh will ensure like Mutual success for us yeah the partners always want to get in front of the customers and bring new stuff to them pen tests have traditionally been really expensive uh and so bringing it down in one to a service level that's one affordable and has flexibility to it allows a lot of capability so I imagine people getting excited by it so I have to ask you about the program What specifically are you guys doing can you share any details around what it means for the partners what they get what's in it for them can you just break down some of the mechanics and mechanisms or or details yeah yep um you know we're really looking to create business alignment um and like I said establish Mutual success with our partners so we've got two um two key elements that we were really focused on um that we bring to the partners so the opportunity the profit margin expansion is one of them and um a way for our partners to really differentiate themselves and stay relevant in the market so um we've restructured our discount model really um you know highlighting profitability and maximizing profitability and uh this includes our deal registration we've we've created deal registration program we've increased discount for partners who take part in our partner certification uh trainings and we've we have some other partner incentives uh that we we've created that that's going to help out there we've we put this all so we've recently Gone live with our partner portal um it's a Consolidated experience for our partners where they can access our our sales tools and we really view our partners as an extension of our sales and Technical teams and so we've extended all of our our training material that we use internally we've made it available to our partners through our partner portal um we've um I'm trying I'm thinking now back what else is in that partner portal here we've got our partner certification information so all the content that's delivered during that training can be found in the portal we've got deal registration uh um co-branded marketing materials pipeline management and so um this this portal gives our partners a One-Stop place to to go to find all that information um and then just really quickly on the second part of that that I mentioned is our technology really is um really disruptive to the market so you know like you said autonomous pen testing it's um it's still it's well it's still still relatively new topic uh for security practitioners and um it's proven to be really disruptive so um that on top of um just well recently we found an article that um that mentioned by markets and markets that reports that the global pen testing markets really expanding and so it's expected to grow to like 2.7 billion um by 2027. so the Market's there right the Market's expanding it's growing and so for our partners it's just really allows them to grow their revenue um across their customer base expand their customer base and offering this High profit margin while you know getting in early to Market on this just disruptive technology big Market a lot of opportunities to make some money people love to put more margin on on those deals especially when you can bring a great solution that everyone knows is hard to do so I think that's going to provide a lot of value is there is there a type of partner that you guys see emerging or you aligning with you mentioned the alignment with the partners I can see how that the training and the incentives are all there sounds like it's all going well is there a type of partner that's resonating the most or is there categories of partners that can take advantage of this yeah absolutely so we work with all different kinds of Partners we work with our traditional resale Partners um we've worked we're working with systems integrators we have a really strong MSP mssp program um we've got Consulting partners and the Consulting Partners especially with the ones that offer pen test services so we they use us as a as we act as a force multiplier just really offering them profit margin expansion um opportunity there we've got some technology partner partners that we really work with for co-cell opportunities and then we've got our Cloud Partners um you'd mentioned that earlier and so we are in AWS Marketplace so our ccpo partners we're part of the ISP accelerate program um so we we're doing a lot there with our Cloud partners and um of course we uh we go to market with uh distribution Partners as well gotta love the opportunity for more margin expansion every kind of partner wants to put more gross profit on their deals is there a certification involved I have to ask is there like do you get do people get certified or is it just you get trained is it self-paced training is it in person how are you guys doing the whole training certification thing because is that is that a requirement yeah absolutely so we do offer a certification program and um it's been very popular this includes a a seller's portion and an operator portion and and so um this is at no cost to our partners and um we operate both virtually it's it's law it's virtually but live it's not self-paced and we also have in person um you know sessions as well and we also can customize these to any partners that have a large group of people and we can just we can do one in person or virtual just specifically for that partner well any kind of incentive opportunities and marketing opportunities everyone loves to get the uh get the deals just kind of rolling in leads from what we can see if our early reporting this looks like a hot product price wise service level wise what incentive do you guys thinking about and and Joint marketing you mentioned co-sell earlier in pipeline so I was kind of kind of honing in on that piece sure and yes and then to follow along with our partner certification program we do incentivize our partners there if they have a certain number certified their discount increases so that's part of it we have our deal registration program that increases discount as well um and then we do have some um some partner incentives that are wrapped around meeting setting and um moving moving opportunities along to uh proof of value gotta love the education driving value I have to ask you so you've been around the industry you've seen the channel relationships out there you're seeing companies old school new school you know uh Horizon 3.ai is kind of like that new school very cloud specific a lot of Leverage with we mentioned AWS and all the clouds um why is the company so hot right now why did you join them and what's why are people attracted to this company what's the what's the attraction what's the vibe what do you what do you see and what what do you use what did you see in in this company well this is just you know like I said it's very disruptive um it's really in high demand right now and um and and just because because it's new to Market and uh a newer technology so we are we can collaborate with a manual pen tester um we can you know we can allow our customers to run their pen test um with with no specialty teams and um and and then so we and like you know like I said we can allow our partners can actually build businesses profitable businesses so we can they can use our product to increase their services revenue and um and build their business model you know around around our services what's interesting about the pen test thing is that it's very expensive and time consuming the people who do them are very talented people that could be working on really bigger things in the in absolutely customers so bringing this into the channel allows them if you look at the price Delta between a pen test and then what you guys are offering I mean that's a huge margin Gap between street price of say today's pen test and what you guys offer when you show people that they follow do they say too good to be true I mean what are some of the things that people say when you kind of show them that are they like scratch their head like come on what's the what's the catch here right so the cost savings is a huge is huge for us um and then also you know like I said working as a force multiplier with a pen testing company that offers the services and so they can they can do their their annual manual pen tests that may be required around compliance regulations and then we can we can act as the continuous verification of their security um um you know that that they can run um weekly and so it's just um you know it's just an addition to to what they're offering already and an expansion so Jennifer thanks for coming on thecube really appreciate you uh coming on sharing the insights on the channel uh what's next what can we expect from the channel group what are you thinking what's going on right so we're really looking to expand our our Channel um footprint and um very strategically uh we've got um we've got some big plans um for for Horizon 3.ai awesome well thanks for coming on really appreciate it you're watching thecube the leader in high tech Enterprise coverage [Music] [Music] hello and welcome to the Cube's special presentation with Horizon 3.ai with Raina Richter vice president of emea Europe Middle East and Africa and Asia Pacific APAC for Horizon 3 today welcome to this special Cube presentation thanks for joining us thank you for the invitation so Horizon 3 a guy driving Global expansion big international news with a partner first approach you guys are expanding internationally let's get into it you guys are driving this new expanse partner program to new heights tell us about it what are you seeing in the momentum why the expansion what's all the news about well I would say uh yeah in in international we have I would say a similar similar situation like in the US um there is a global shortage of well-educated penetration testers on the one hand side on the other side um we have a raising demand of uh network and infrastructure security and with our approach of an uh autonomous penetration testing I I believe we are totally on top of the game um especially as we have also now uh starting with an international instance that means for example if a customer in Europe is using uh our service node zero he will be connected to a node zero instance which is located inside the European Union and therefore he has doesn't have to worry about the conflict between the European the gdpr regulations versus the US Cloud act and I would say there we have a total good package for our partners that they can provide differentiators to their customers you know we've had great conversations here on thecube with the CEO and the founder of the company around the leverage of the cloud and how successful that's been for the company and honestly I can just Connect the Dots here but I'd like you to weigh in more on how that translates into the go to market here because you got great Cloud scale with with the security product you guys are having success with great leverage there I've seen a lot of success there what's the momentum on the channel partner program internationally why is it so important to you is it just the regional segmentation is it the economics why the momentum well there are it's there are multiple issues first of all there is a raising demand in penetration testing um and don't forget that uh in international we have a much higher level in number a number or percentage in SMB and mid-market customers so these customers typically most of them even didn't have a pen test done once a year so for them pen testing was just too expensive now with our offering together with our partners we can provide different uh ways how customers could get an autonomous pen testing done more than once a year with even lower costs than they had with with a traditional manual paint test so and that is because we have our uh Consulting plus package which is for typically pain testers they can go out and can do a much faster much quicker and their pain test at many customers once in after each other so they can do more pain tests on a lower more attractive price on the other side there are others what even the same ones who are providing um node zero as an mssp service so they can go after s p customers saying okay well you only have a couple of hundred uh IP addresses no worries we have the perfect package for you and then you have let's say the mid Market let's say the thousands and more employees then they might even have an annual subscription very traditional but for all of them it's all the same the customer or the service provider doesn't need a piece of Hardware they only need to install a small piece of a Docker container and that's it and that makes it so so smooth to go in and say okay Mr customer we just put in this this virtual attacker into your network and that's it and and all the rest is done and within within three clicks they are they can act like a pen tester with 20 years of experience and that's going to be very Channel friendly and partner friendly I can almost imagine so I have to ask you and thank you for calling the break calling out that breakdown and and segmentation that was good that was very helpful for me to understand but I want to follow up if you don't mind um what type of partners are you seeing the most traction with and why well I would say at the beginning typically you have the the innovators the early adapters typically Boutique size of Partners they start because they they are always looking for Innovation and those are the ones you they start in the beginning so we have a wide range of Partners having mostly even um managed by the owner of the company so uh they immediately understand okay there is the value and they can change their offering they're changing their offering in terms of penetration testing because they can do more pen tests and they can then add other ones or we have those ones who offer 10 tests services but they did not have their own pen testers so they had to go out on the open market and Source paint testing experts um to get the pen test at a particular customer done and now with node zero they're totally independent they can't go out and say okay Mr customer here's the here's the service that's it we turn it on and within an hour you're up and running totally yeah and those pen tests are usually expensive and hard to do now it's right in line with the sales delivery pretty interesting for a partner absolutely but on the other hand side we are not killing the pain testers business we do something we're providing with no tiers I would call something like the foundation work the foundational work of having an an ongoing penetration testing of the infrastructure the operating system and the pen testers by themselves they can concentrate in the future on things like application pen testing for example so those Services which we we're not touching so we're not killing the paint tester Market we're just taking away the ongoing um let's say foundation work call it that way yeah yeah that was one of my questions I was going to ask is there's a lot of interest in this autonomous pen testing one because it's expensive to do because those skills are required are in need and they're expensive so you kind of cover the entry level and the blockers that are in there I've seen people say to me this pen test becomes a blocker for getting things done so there's been a lot of interest in the autonomous pen testing and for organizations to have that posture and it's an overseas issue too because now you have that that ongoing thing so can you explain that particular benefit for an organization to have that continuously verifying an organization's posture yep certainly so I would say um typically you are you you have to do your patches you have to bring in new versions of operating systems of different Services of uh um operating systems of some components and and they are always bringing new vulnerabilities the difference here is that with node zero we are telling the customer or the partner package we're telling them which are the executable vulnerabilities because previously they might have had um a vulnerability scanner so this vulnerability scanner brought up hundreds or even thousands of cves but didn't say anything about which of them are vulnerable really executable and then you need an expert digging in one cve after the other finding out is it is it really executable yes or no and that is where you need highly paid experts which we have a shortage so with notes here now we can say okay we tell you exactly which ones are the ones you should work on because those are the ones which are executable we rank them accordingly to the risk level how easily they can be used and by a sudden and then the good thing is convert it or indifference to the traditional penetration test they don't have to wait for a year for the next pain test to find out if the fixing was effective they weren't just the next scan and say Yes closed vulnerability is gone the time is really valuable and if you're doing any devops Cloud native you're always pushing new things so pen test ongoing pen testing is actually a benefit just in general as a kind of hygiene so really really interesting solution really bring that global scale is going to be a new new coverage area for us for sure I have to ask you if you don't mind answering what particular region are you focused on or plan to Target for this next phase of growth well at this moment we are concentrating on the countries inside the European Union Plus the United Kingdom um but we are and they are of course logically I'm based into Frankfurt area that means we cover more or less the countries just around so it's like the total dark region Germany Switzerland Austria plus the Netherlands but we also already have Partners in the nordics like in Finland or in Sweden um so it's it's it it's rapidly we have Partners already in the UK and it's rapidly growing so I'm for example we are now starting with some activities in Singapore um um and also in the in the Middle East area um very important we uh depending on let's say the the way how to do business currently we try to concentrate on those countries where we can have um let's say um at least English as an accepted business language great is there any particular region you're having the most success with right now is it sounds like European Union's um kind of first wave what's them yes that's the first definitely that's the first wave and now we're also getting the uh the European instance up and running it's clearly our commitment also to the market saying okay we know there are certain dedicated uh requirements and we take care of this and and we're just launching it we're building up this one uh the instance um in the AWS uh service center here in Frankfurt also with some dedicated Hardware internet in a data center in Frankfurt where we have with the date six by the way uh the highest internet interconnection bandwidth on the planet so we have very short latency to wherever you are on on the globe that's a great that's a great call outfit benefit too I was going to ask that what are some of the benefits your partners are seeing in emea and Asia Pacific well I would say um the the benefits is for them it's clearly they can they can uh talk with customers and can offer customers penetration testing which they before and even didn't think about because it penetrates penetration testing in a traditional way was simply too expensive for them too complex the preparation time was too long um they didn't have even have the capacity uh to um to support a pain an external pain tester now with this service you can go in and say even if they Mr customer we can do a test with you in a couple of minutes within we have installed the docker container within 10 minutes we have the pen test started that's it and then we just wait and and I would say that is we'll we are we are seeing so many aha moments then now because on the partner side when they see node zero the first time working it's like this wow that is great and then they work out to customers and and show it to their typically at the beginning mostly the friendly customers like wow that's great I need that and and I would say um the feedback from the partners is that is a service where I do not have to evangelize the customer everybody understands penetration testing I don't have to say describe what it is they understand the customer understanding immediately yes penetration testing good about that I know I should do it but uh too complex too expensive now with the name is for example as an mssp service provided from one of our partners but it's getting easy yeah it's great and it's great great benefit there I mean I gotta say I'm a huge fan of what you guys are doing I like this continuous automation that's a major benefit to anyone doing devops or any kind of modern application development this is just a godsend for them this is really good and like you said the pen testers that are doing it they were kind of coming down from their expertise to kind of do things that should have been automated they get to focus on the bigger ticket items that's a really big point so we free them we free the pain testers for the higher level elements of the penetration testing segment and that is typically the application testing which is currently far away from being automated yeah and that's where the most critical workloads are and I think this is the nice balance congratulations on the international expansion of the program and thanks for coming on this special presentation really I really appreciate it thank you you're welcome okay this is thecube special presentation you know check out pen test automation International expansion Horizon 3 dot AI uh really Innovative solution in our next segment Chris Hill sector head for strategic accounts will discuss the power of Horizon 3.ai and Splunk in action you're watching the cube the leader in high tech Enterprise coverage foreign [Music] [Music] welcome back everyone to the cube and Horizon 3.ai special presentation I'm John Furrier host of thecube we're with Chris Hill sector head for strategic accounts and federal at Horizon 3.ai a great Innovative company Chris great to see you thanks for coming on thecube yeah like I said uh you know great to meet you John long time listener first time caller so excited to be here with you guys yeah we were talking before camera you had Splunk back in 2013 and I think 2012 was our first splunk.com and boy man you know talk about being in the right place at the right time now we're at another inflection point and Splunk continues to be relevant um and continuing to have that data driving Security in that interplay and your CEO former CTO of his plug as well at Horizon who's been on before really Innovative product you guys have but you know yeah don't wait for a breach to find out if you're logging the right data this is the topic of this thread Splunk is very much part of this new international expansion announcement uh with you guys tell us what are some of the challenges that you see where this is relevant for the Splunk and Horizon AI as you guys expand uh node zero out internationally yeah well so across so you know my role uh within Splunk it was uh working with our most strategic accounts and so I looked back to 2013 and I think about the sales process like working with with our small customers you know it was um it was still very siled back then like I was selling to an I.T team that was either using this for it operations um we generally would always even say yeah although we do security we weren't really designed for it we're a log management tool and we I'm sure you remember back then John we were like sort of stepping into the security space and and the public sector domain that I was in you know security was 70 of what we did when I look back to sort of uh the transformation that I was witnessing in that digital transformation um you know when I look at like 2019 to today you look at how uh the IT team and the security teams are being have been forced to break down those barriers that they used to sort of be silent away would not commute communicate one you know the security guys would be like oh this is my box I.T you're not allowed in today you can't get away with that and I think that the value that we bring to you know and of course Splunk has been a huge leader in that space and continues to do Innovation across the board but I think what we've we're seeing in the space and I was talking with Patrick Coughlin the SVP of uh security markets about this is that you know what we've been able to do with Splunk is build a purpose-built solution that allows Splunk to eat more data so Splunk itself is ulk know it's an ingest engine right the great reason people bought it was you could build these really fast dashboards and grab intelligence out of it but without data it doesn't do anything right so how do you drive and how do you bring more data in and most importantly from a customer perspective how do you bring the right data in and so if you think about what node zero and what we're doing in a horizon 3 is that sure we do pen testing but because we're an autonomous pen testing tool we do it continuously so this whole thought I'd be like oh crud like my customers oh yeah we got a pen test coming up it's gonna be six weeks the week oh yeah you know and everyone's gonna sit on their hands call me back in two months Chris we'll talk to you then right not not a real efficient way to test your environment and shoot we saw that with Uber this week right um you know and that's a case where we could have helped oh just right we could explain the Uber thing because it was a contractor just give a quick highlight of what happened so you can connect the doctor yeah no problem so um it was uh I got I think it was yeah one of those uh you know games where they would try and test an environment um and with the uh pen tester did was he kept on calling them MFA guys being like I need to reset my password we need to set my right password and eventually the um the customer service guy said okay I'm resetting it once he had reset and bypassed the multi-factor authentication he then was able to get in and get access to the building area that he was in or I think not the domain but he was able to gain access to a partial part of that Network he then paralleled over to what I would assume is like a VA VMware or some virtual machine that had notes that had all of the credentials for logging into various domains and So within minutes they had access and that's the sort of stuff that we do you know a lot of these tools like um you know you think about the cacophony of tools that are out there in a GTA architect architecture right I'm gonna get like a z-scale or I'm going to have uh octum and I have a Splunk I've been into the solar system I mean I don't mean to name names we have crowdstriker or Sentinel one in there it's just it's a cacophony of things that don't work together they weren't designed work together and so we have seen so many times in our business through our customer support and just working with customers when we do their pen tests that there will be 5 000 servers out there three are misconfigured those three misconfigurations will create the open door because remember the hacker only needs to be right once the defender needs to be right all the time and that's the challenge and so that's what I'm really passionate about what we're doing uh here at Horizon three I see this my digital transformation migration and security going on which uh we're at the tip of the spear it's why I joined sey Hall coming on this journey uh and just super excited about where the path's going and super excited about the relationship with Splunk I get into more details on some of the specifics of that but um you know well you're nailing I mean we've been doing a lot of things on super cloud and this next gen environment we're calling it next gen you're really seeing devops obviously devsecops has already won the it role has moved to the developer shift left is an indicator of that it's one of the many examples higher velocity code software supply chain you hear these things that means that it is now in the developer hands it is replaced by the new Ops data Ops teams and security where there's a lot of horizontal thinking to your point about access there's no more perimeter huge 100 right is really right on things one time you know to get in there once you're in then you can hang out move around move laterally big problem okay so we get that now the challenges for these teams as they are transitioning organizationally how do they figure out what to do okay this is the next step they already have Splunk so now they're kind of in transition while protecting for a hundred percent ratio of success so how would you look at that and describe the challenge is what do they do what is it what are the teams facing with their data and what's next what are they what are they what action do they take so let's use some vernacular that folks will know so if I think about devsecops right we both know what that means that I'm going to build security into the app it normally talks about sec devops right how am I building security around the perimeter of what's going inside my ecosystem and what are they doing and so if you think about what we're able to do with somebody like Splunk is we can pen test the entire environment from Soup To Nuts right so I'm going to test the end points through to its I'm going to look for misconfigurations I'm going to I'm going to look for um uh credential exposed credentials you know I'm going to look for anything I can in the environment again I'm going to do it at light speed and and what what we're doing for that SEC devops space is to you know did you detect that we were in your environment so did we alert Splunk or the Sim that there's someone in the environment laterally moving around did they more importantly did they log us into their environment and when do they detect that log to trigger that log did they alert on us and then finally most importantly for every CSO out there is going to be did they stop us and so that's how we we do this and I think you when speaking with um stay Hall before you know we've come up with this um boils but we call it fine fix verifying so what we do is we go in is we act as the attacker right we act in a production environment so we're not going to be we're a passive attacker but we will go in on credentialed on agents but we have to assume to have an assumed breach model which means we're going to put a Docker container in your environment and then we're going to fingerprint the environment so we're going to go out and do an asset survey now that's something that's not something that Splunk does super well you know so can Splunk see all the assets do the same assets marry up we're going to log all that data and think and then put load that into this long Sim or the smoke logging tools just to have it in Enterprise right that's an immediate future ad that they've got um and then we've got the fix so once we've completed our pen test um we are then going to generate a report and we can talk about these in a little bit later but the reports will show an executive summary the assets that we found which would be your asset Discovery aspect of that a fix report and the fixed report I think is probably the most important one it will go down and identify what we did how we did it and then how to fix that and then from that the pen tester or the organization should fix those then they go back and run another test and then they validate like a change detection environment to see hey did those fixes taste play take place and you know snehaw when he was the CTO of jsoc he shared with me a number of times about it's like man there would be 15 more items on next week's punch sheet that we didn't know about and it's and it has to do with how we you know how they were uh prioritizing the cves and whatnot because they would take all CBDs it was critical or non-critical and it's like we are able to create context in that environment that feeds better information into Splunk and whatnot that brings that brings up the efficiency for Splunk specifically the teams out there by the way the burnout thing is real I mean this whole I just finished my list and I got 15 more or whatever the list just can keeps growing how did node zero specifically help Splunk teams be more efficient like that's the question I want to get at because this seems like a very scale way for Splunk customers and teams service teams to be more so the question is how does node zero help make Splunk specifically their service teams be more efficient so so today in our early interactions we're building customers we've seen are five things um and I'll start with sort of identifying the blind spots right so kind of what I just talked about with you did we detect did we log did we alert did they stop node zero right and so I would I put that you know a more Layman's third grade term and if I was going to beat a fifth grader at this game would be we can be the sparring partner for a Splunk Enterprise customer a Splunk Essentials customer someone using Splunk soar or even just an Enterprise Splunk customer that may be a small shop with three people and just wants to know where am I exposed so by creating and generating these reports and then having um the API that actually generates the dashboard they can take all of these events that we've logged and log them in and then where that then comes in is number two is how do we prioritize those logs right so how do we create visibility to logs that that um are have critical impacts and again as I mentioned earlier not all cves are high impact regard and also not all or low right so if you daisy chain a bunch of low cves together boom I've got a mission critical AP uh CPE that needs to be fixed now such as a credential moving to an NT box that's got a text file with a bunch of passwords on it that would be very bad um and then third would be uh verifying that you have all of the hosts so one of the things that splunk's not particularly great at and they'll literate themselves they don't do asset Discovery so dude what assets do we see and what are they logging from that um and then for from um for every event that they are able to identify one of the cool things that we can do is actually create this low code no code environment so they could let you know Splunk customers can use Splunk sword to actually triage events and prioritize that event so where they're being routed within it to optimize the Sox team time to Market or time to triage any given event obviously reducing MTR and then finally I think one of the neatest things that we'll be seeing us develop is um our ability to build glass cables so behind me you'll see one of our triage events and how we build uh a Lockheed Martin kill chain on that with a glass table which is very familiar to the community we're going to have the ability and not too distant future to allow people to search observe on those iocs and if people aren't familiar with it ioc it's an instant of a compromise so that's a vector that we want to drill into and of course who's better at Drilling in the data and smoke yeah this is a critter this is an awesome Synergy there I mean I can see a Splunk customer going man this just gives me so much more capability action actionability and also real understanding and I think this is what I want to dig into if you don't mind understanding that critical impact okay is kind of where I see this coming got the data data ingest now data's data but the question is what not to log you know where are things misconfigured these are critical questions so can you talk about what it means to understand critical impact yeah so I think you know going back to the things that I just spoke about a lot of those cves where you'll see um uh low low low and then you daisy chain together and they're suddenly like oh this is high now but then your other impact of like if you're if you're a Splunk customer you know and I had it I had several of them I had one customer that you know terabytes of McAfee data being brought in and it was like all right there's a lot of other data that you probably also want to bring but they could only afford wanted to do certain data sets because that's and they didn't know how to prioritize or filter those data sets and so we provide that opportunity to say hey these are the critical ones to bring in but there's also the ones that you don't necessarily need to bring in because low cve in this case really does mean low cve like an ILO server would be one that um that's the print server uh where the uh your admin credentials are on on like a printer and so there will be credentials on that that's something that a hacker might go in to look at so although the cve on it is low is if you daisy chain with somebody that's able to get into that you might say Ah that's high and we would then potentially rank it giving our AI logic to say that's a moderate so put it on the scale and we prioritize those versus uh of all of these scanners just going to give you a bunch of CDs and good luck and translating that if I if I can and tell me if I'm wrong that kind of speaks to that whole lateral movement that's it challenge right print serve a great example looks stupid low end who's going to want to deal with the print server oh but it's connected into a critical system there's a path is that kind of what you're getting at yeah I use Daisy Chain I think that's from the community they came from uh but it's just a lateral movement it's exactly what they're doing in those low level low critical lateral movements is where the hackers are getting in right so that's the beauty thing about the uh the Uber example is that who would have thought you know I've got my monthly Factor authentication going in a human made a mistake we can't we can't not expect humans to make mistakes we're fallible right the reality is is once they were in the environment they could have protected themselves by running enough pen tests to know that they had certain uh exposed credentials that would have stopped the breach and they did not had not done that in their environment and I'm not poking yeah but it's an interesting Trend though I mean it's obvious if sometimes those low end items are also not protected well so it's easy to get at from a hacker standpoint but also the people in charge of them can be fished easily or spearfished because they're not paying attention because they don't have to no one ever told them hey be careful yeah for the community that I came from John that's exactly how they they would uh meet you at a uh an International Event um introduce themselves as a graduate student these are National actor States uh would you mind reviewing my thesis on such and such and I was at Adobe at the time that I was working on this instead of having to get the PDF they opened the PDF and whoever that customer was launches and I don't know if you remember back in like 2008 time frame there was a lot of issues around IP being by a nation state being stolen from the United States and that's exactly how they did it and John that's or LinkedIn hey I want to get a joke we want to hire you double the salary oh I'm gonna click on that for sure you know yeah right exactly yeah the one thing I would say to you is like uh when we look at like sort of you know because I think we did 10 000 pen tests last year is it's probably over that now you know we have these sort of top 10 ways that we think and find people coming into the environment the funniest thing is that only one of them is a cve related vulnerability like uh you know you guys know what they are right so it's it but it's it's like two percent of the attacks are occurring through the cves but yeah there's all that attention spent to that and very little attention spent to this pen testing side which is sort of this continuous threat you know monitoring space and and this vulnerability space where I think we play a such an important role and I'm so excited to be a part of the tip of the spear on this one yeah I'm old enough to know the movie sneakers which I loved as a you know watching that movie you know professional hackers are testing testing always testing the environment I love this I got to ask you as we kind of wrap up here Chris if you don't mind the the benefits to Professional Services from this Alliance big news Splunk and you guys work well together we see that clearly what are what other benefits do Professional Services teams see from the Splunk and Horizon 3.ai Alliance so if you're I think for from our our from both of our uh Partners uh as we bring these guys together and many of them already are the same partner right uh is that uh first off the licensing model is probably one of the key areas that we really excel at so if you're an end user you can buy uh for the Enterprise by the number of IP addresses you're using um but uh if you're a partner working with this there's solution ways that you can go in and we'll license as to msps and what that business model on msps looks like but the unique thing that we do here is this C plus license and so the Consulting plus license allows like a uh somebody a small to mid-sized to some very large uh you know Fortune 100 uh consulting firms use this uh by buying into a license called um Consulting plus where they can have unlimited uh access to as many IPS as they want but you can only run one test at a time and as you can imagine when we're going and hacking passwords and um checking hashes and decrypting hashes that can take a while so but for the right customer it's it's a perfect tool and so I I'm so excited about our ability to go to market with uh our partners so that we understand ourselves understand how not to just sell to or not tell just to sell through but we know how to sell with them as a good vendor partner I think that that's one thing that we've done a really good job building bring it into the market yeah I think also the Splunk has had great success how they've enabled uh partners and Professional Services absolutely you know the services that layer on top of Splunk are multi-fold tons of great benefits so you guys Vector right into that ride that way with friction and and the cool thing is that in you know in one of our reports which could be totally customized uh with someone else's logo we're going to generate you know so I I used to work in another organization it wasn't Splunk but we we did uh you know pen testing as for for customers and my pen testers would come on site they'd do the engagement and they would leave and then another release someone would be oh shoot we got another sector that was breached and they'd call you back you know four weeks later and so by August our entire pen testings teams would be sold out and it would be like well even in March maybe and they're like no no I gotta breach now and and and then when they do go in they go through do the pen test and they hand over a PDF and they pack on the back and say there's where your problems are you need to fix it and the reality is that what we're going to generate completely autonomously with no human interaction is we're going to go and find all the permutations of anything we found and the fix for those permutations and then once you've fixed everything you just go back and run another pen test it's you know for what people pay for one pen test they can have a tool that does that every every Pat patch on Tuesday and that's on Wednesday you know triage throughout the week green yellow red I wanted to see the colors show me green green is good right not red and one CIO doesn't want who doesn't want that dashboard right it's it's exactly it and we can help bring I think that you know I'm really excited about helping drive this with the Splunk team because they get that they understand that it's the green yellow red dashboard and and how do we help them find more green uh so that the other guys are in red yeah and get in the data and do the right thing and be efficient with how you use the data know what to look at so many things to pay attention to you know the combination of both and then go to market strategy real brilliant congratulations Chris thanks for coming on and sharing um this news with the detail around the Splunk in action around the alliance thanks for sharing John my pleasure thanks look forward to seeing you soon all right great we'll follow up and do another segment on devops and I.T and security teams as the new new Ops but and super cloud a bunch of other stuff so thanks for coming on and our next segment the CEO of horizon 3.aa will break down all the new news for us here on thecube you're watching thecube the leader in high tech Enterprise coverage [Music] yeah the partner program for us has been fantastic you know I think prior to that you know as most organizations most uh uh most Farmers most mssps might not necessarily have a a bench at all for penetration testing uh maybe they subcontract this work out or maybe they do it themselves but trying to staff that kind of position can be incredibly difficult for us this was a differentiator a a new a new partner a new partnership that allowed us to uh not only perform services for our customers but be able to provide a product by which that they can do it themselves so we work with our customers in a variety of ways some of them want more routine testing and perform this themselves but we're also a certified service provider of horizon 3 being able to perform uh penetration tests uh help review the the data provide color provide analysis for our customers in a broader sense right not necessarily the the black and white elements of you know what was uh what's critical what's high what's medium what's low what you need to fix but are there systemic issues this has allowed us to onboard new customers this has allowed us to migrate some penetration testing services to us from from competitors in the marketplace But ultimately this is occurring because the the product and the outcome are special they're unique and they're effective our customers like what they're seeing they like the routineness of it many of them you know again like doing this themselves you know being able to kind of pen test themselves parts of their networks um and the the new use cases right I'm a large organization I have eight to ten Acquisitions per year wouldn't it be great to have a tool to be able to perform a penetration test both internal and external of that acquisition before we integrate the two companies and maybe bringing on some risk it's a very effective partnership uh one that really is uh kind of taken our our Engineers our account Executives by storm um you know this this is a a partnership that's been very valuable to us [Music] a key part of the value and business model at Horizon 3 is enabling Partners to leverage node zero to make more revenue for themselves our goal is that for sixty percent of our Revenue this year will be originated by partners and that 95 of our Revenue next year will be originated by partners and so a key to that strategy is making us an integral part of your business models as a partner a key quote from one of our partners is that we enable every one of their business units to generate Revenue so let's talk about that in a little bit more detail first is that if you have a pen test Consulting business take Deloitte as an example what was six weeks of human labor at Deloitte per pen test has been cut down to four days of Labor using node zero to conduct reconnaissance find all the juicy interesting areas of the of the Enterprise that are exploitable and being able to go assess the entire organization and then all of those details get served up to the human to be able to look at understand and determine where to probe deeper so what you see in that pen test Consulting business is that node zero becomes a force multiplier where those Consulting teams were able to cover way more accounts and way more IPS within those accounts with the same or fewer consultants and so that directly leads to profit margin expansion for the Penn testing business itself because node 0 is a force multiplier the second business model here is if you're an mssp as an mssp you're already making money providing defensive cyber security operations for a large volume of customers and so what they do is they'll license node zero and use us as an upsell to their mssb business to start to deliver either continuous red teaming continuous verification or purple teaming as a service and so in that particular business model they've got an additional line of Revenue where they can increase the spend of their existing customers by bolting on node 0 as a purple team as a service offering the third business model or customer type is if you're an I.T services provider so as an I.T services provider you make money installing and configuring security products like Splunk or crowdstrike or hemio you also make money reselling those products and you also make money generating follow-on services to continue to harden your customer environments and so for them what what those it service providers will do is use us to verify that they've installed Splunk correctly improved to their customer that Splunk was installed correctly or crowdstrike was installed correctly using our results and then use our results to drive follow-on services and revenue and then finally we've got the value-added reseller which is just a straight up reseller because of how fast our sales Cycles are these vars are able to typically go from cold email to deal close in six to eight weeks at Horizon 3 at least a single sales engineer is able to run 30 to 50 pocs concurrently because our pocs are very lightweight and don't require any on-prem customization or heavy pre-sales post sales activity so as a result we're able to have a few amount of sellers driving a lot of Revenue and volume for us well the same thing applies to bars there isn't a lot of effort to sell the product or prove its value so vars are able to sell a lot more Horizon 3 node zero product without having to build up a huge specialist sales organization so what I'm going to do is talk through uh scenario three here as an I.T service provider and just how powerful node zero can be in driving additional Revenue so in here think of for every one dollar of node zero license purchased by the IT service provider to do their business it'll generate ten dollars of additional revenue for that partner so in this example kidney group uses node 0 to verify that they have installed and deployed Splunk correctly so Kitty group is a Splunk partner they they sell it services to install configure deploy and maintain Splunk and as they deploy Splunk they're going to use node 0 to attack the environment and make sure that the right logs and alerts and monitoring are being handled within the Splunk deployment so it's a way of doing QA or verifying that Splunk has been configured correctly and that's going to be internally used by kidney group to prove the quality of their services that they've just delivered then what they're going to do is they're going to show and leave behind that node zero Report with their client and that creates a resell opportunity for for kidney group to resell node 0 to their client because their client is seeing the reports and the results and saying wow this is pretty amazing and those reports can be co-branded where it's a pen testing report branded with kidney group but it says powered by Horizon three under it from there kidney group is able to take the fixed actions report that's automatically generated with every pen test through node zero and they're able to use that as the starting point for a statement of work to sell follow-on services to fix all of the problems that node zero identified fixing l11r misconfigurations fixing or patching VMware or updating credentials policies and so on so what happens is node 0 has found a bunch of problems the client often lacks the capacity to fix and so kidney group can use that lack of capacity by the client as a follow-on sales opportunity for follow-on services and finally based on the findings from node zero kidney group can look at that report and say to the customer you know customer if you bought crowdstrike you'd be able to uh prevent node Zero from attacking and succeeding in the way that it did for if you bought humano or if you bought Palo Alto networks or if you bought uh some privileged access management solution because of what node 0 was able to do with credential harvesting and attacks and so as a result kidney group is able to resell other security products within their portfolio crowdstrike Falcon humano Polito networks demisto Phantom and so on based on the gaps that were identified by node zero and that pen test and what that creates is another feedback loop where kidney group will then go use node 0 to verify that crowdstrike product has actually been installed and configured correctly and then this becomes the cycle of using node 0 to verify a deployment using that verification to drive a bunch of follow-on services and resell opportunities which then further drives more usage of the product now the way that we licensed is that it's a usage-based license licensing model so that the partner will grow their node zero Consulting plus license as they grow their business so for example if you're a kidney group then week one you've got you're going to use node zero to verify your Splunk install in week two if you have a pen testing business you're going to go off and use node zero to be a force multiplier for your pen testing uh client opportunity and then if you have an mssp business then in week three you're going to use node zero to go execute a purple team mssp offering for your clients so not necessarily a kidney group but if you're a Deloitte or ATT these larger companies and you've got multiple lines of business if you're Optive for instance you all you have to do is buy one Consulting plus license and you're going to be able to run as many pen tests as you want sequentially so now you can buy a single license and use that one license to meet your week one client commitments and then meet your week two and then meet your week three and as you grow your business you start to run multiple pen tests concurrently so in week one you've got to do a Splunk verify uh verify Splunk install and you've got to run a pen test and you've got to do a purple team opportunity you just simply expand the number of Consulting plus licenses from one license to three licenses and so now as you systematically grow your business you're able to grow your node zero capacity with you giving you predictable cogs predictable margins and once again 10x additional Revenue opportunity for that investment in the node zero Consulting plus license my name is Saint I'm the co-founder and CEO here at Horizon 3. I'm going to talk to you today about why it's important to look at your Enterprise Through The Eyes of an attacker the challenge I had when I was a CIO in banking the CTO at Splunk and serving within the Department of Defense is that I had no idea I was Secure until the bad guys had showed up am I logging the right data am I fixing the right vulnerabilities are my security tools that I've paid millions of dollars for actually working together to defend me and the answer is I don't know does my team actually know how to respond to a breach in the middle of an incident I don't know I've got to wait for the bad guys to show up and so the challenge I had was how do we proactively verify our security posture I tried a variety of techniques the first was the use of vulnerability scanners and the challenge with vulnerability scanners is being vulnerable doesn't mean you're exploitable I might have a hundred thousand findings from my scanner of which maybe five or ten can actually be exploited in my environment the other big problem with scanners is that they can't chain weaknesses together from machine to machine so if you've got a thousand machines in your environment or more what a vulnerability scanner will do is tell you you have a problem on machine one and separately a problem on machine two but what they can tell you is that an attacker could use a load from machine one plus a low from machine two to equal to critical in your environment and what attackers do in their tactics is they chain together misconfigurations dangerous product defaults harvested credentials and exploitable vulnerabilities into attack paths across different machines so to address the attack pads across different machines I tried layering in consulting-based pen testing and the issue is when you've got thousands of hosts or hundreds of thousands of hosts in your environment human-based pen testing simply doesn't scale to test an infrastructure of that size moreover when they actually do execute a pen test and you get the report oftentimes you lack the expertise within your team to quickly retest to verify that you've actually fixed the problem and so what happens is you end up with these pen test reports that are incomplete snapshots and quickly going stale and then to mitigate that problem I tried using breach and attack simulation tools and the struggle with these tools is one I had to install credentialed agents everywhere two I had to write my own custom attack scripts that I didn't have much talent for but also I had to maintain as my environment changed and then three these types of tools were not safe to run against production systems which was the the majority of my attack surface so that's why we went off to start Horizon 3. so Tony and I met when we were in Special Operations together and the challenge we wanted to solve was how do we do infrastructure security testing at scale by giving the the power of a 20-year pen testing veteran into the hands of an I.T admin a network engineer in just three clicks and the whole idea is we enable these fixers The Blue Team to be able to run node Zero Hour pen testing product to quickly find problems in their environment that blue team will then then go off and fix the issues that were found and then they can quickly rerun the attack to verify that they fixed the problem and the whole idea is delivering this without requiring custom scripts be developed without requiring credential agents be installed and without requiring the use of external third-party consulting services or Professional Services self-service pen testing to quickly Drive find fix verify there are three primary use cases that our customers use us for the first is the sock manager that uses us to verify that their security tools are actually effective to verify that they're logging the right data in Splunk or in their Sim to verify that their managed security services provider is able to quickly detect and respond to an attack and hold them accountable for their slas or that the sock understands how to quickly detect and respond and measuring and verifying that or that the variety of tools that you have in your stack most organizations have 130 plus cyber security tools none of which are designed to work together are actually working together the second primary use case is proactively hardening and verifying your systems this is when the I that it admin that network engineer they're able to run self-service pen tests to verify that their Cisco environment is installed in hardened and configured correctly or that their credential policies are set up right or that their vcenter or web sphere or kubernetes environments are actually designed to be secure and what this allows the it admins and network Engineers to do is shift from running one or two pen tests a year to 30 40 or more pen tests a month and you can actually wire those pen tests into your devops process or into your detection engineering and the change management processes to automatically trigger pen tests every time there's a change in your environment the third primary use case is for those organizations lucky enough to have their own internal red team they'll use node zero to do reconnaissance and exploitation at scale and then use the output as a starting point for the humans to step in and focus on the really hard juicy stuff that gets them on stage at Defcon and so these are the three primary use cases and what we'll do is zoom into the find fix verify Loop because what I've found in my experience is find fix verify is the future operating model for cyber security organizations and what I mean here is in the find using continuous pen testing what you want to enable is on-demand self-service pen tests you want those pen tests to find attack pads at scale spanning your on-prem infrastructure your Cloud infrastructure and your perimeter because attackers don't only state in one place they will find ways to chain together a perimeter breach a credential from your on-prem to gain access to your cloud or some other permutation and then the third part in continuous pen testing is attackers don't focus on critical vulnerabilities anymore they know we've built vulnerability Management Programs to reduce those vulnerabilities so attackers have adapted and what they do is chain together misconfigurations in your infrastructure and software and applications with dangerous product defaults with exploitable vulnerabilities and through the collection of credentials through a mix of techniques at scale once you've found those problems the next question is what do you do about it well you want to be able to prioritize fixing problems that are actually exploitable in your environment that truly matter meaning they're going to lead to domain compromise or domain user compromise or access your sensitive data the second thing you want to fix is making sure you understand what risk your crown jewels data is exposed to where is your crown jewels data is in the cloud is it on-prem has it been copied to a share drive that you weren't aware of if a domain user was compromised could they access that crown jewels data you want to be able to use the attacker's perspective to secure the critical data you have in your infrastructure and then finally as you fix these problems you want to quickly remediate and retest that you've actually fixed the issue and this fine fix verify cycle becomes that accelerator that drives purple team culture the third part here is verify and what you want to be able to do in the verify step is verify that your security tools and processes in people can effectively detect and respond to a breach you want to be able to integrate that into your detection engineering processes so that you know you're catching the right security rules or that you've deployed the right configurations you also want to make sure that your environment is adhering to the best practices around systems hardening in cyber resilience and finally you want to be able to prove your security posture over a time to your board to your leadership into your regulators so what I'll do now is zoom into each of these three steps so when we zoom in to find here's the first example using node 0 and autonomous pen testing and what an attacker will do is find a way to break through the perimeter in this example it's very easy to misconfigure kubernetes to allow an attacker to gain remote code execution into your on-prem kubernetes environment and break through the perimeter and from there what the attacker is going to do is conduct Network reconnaissance and then find ways to gain code execution on other machines in the environment and as they get code execution they start to dump credentials collect a bunch of ntlm hashes crack those hashes using open source and dark web available data as part of those attacks and then reuse those credentials to log in and laterally maneuver throughout the environment and then as they loudly maneuver they can reuse those credentials and use credential spraying techniques and so on to compromise your business email to log in as admin into your cloud and this is a very common attack and rarely is a CV actually needed to execute this attack often it's just a misconfiguration in kubernetes with a bad credential policy or password policy combined with bad practices of credential reuse across the organization here's another example of an internal pen test and this is from an actual customer they had 5 000 hosts within their environment they had EDR and uba tools installed and they initiated in an internal pen test on a single machine from that single initial access point node zero enumerated the network conducted reconnaissance and found five thousand hosts were accessible what node 0 will do under the covers is organize all of that reconnaissance data into a knowledge graph that we call the Cyber terrain map and that cyber Terrain map becomes the key data structure that we use to efficiently maneuver and attack and compromise your environment so what node zero will do is they'll try to find ways to get code execution reuse credentials and so on in this customer example they had Fortinet installed as their EDR but node 0 was still able to get code execution on a Windows machine from there it was able to successfully dump credentials including sensitive credentials from the lsas process on the Windows box and then reuse those credentials to log in as domain admin in the network and once an attacker becomes domain admin they have the keys to the kingdom they can do anything they want so what happened here well it turns out Fortinet was misconfigured on three out of 5000 machines bad automation the customer had no idea this had happened they would have had to wait for an attacker to show up to realize that it was misconfigured the second thing is well why didn't Fortinet stop the credential pivot in the lateral movement and it turned out the customer didn't buy the right modules or turn on the right services within that particular product and we see this not only with Ford in it but we see this with Trend Micro and all the other defensive tools where it's very easy to miss a checkbox in the configuration that will do things like prevent credential dumping the next story I'll tell you is attackers don't have to hack in they log in so another infrastructure pen test a typical technique attackers will take is man in the middle uh attacks that will collect hashes so in this case what an attacker will do is leverage a tool or technique called responder to collect ntlm hashes that are being passed around the network and there's a variety of reasons why these hashes are passed around and it's a pretty common misconfiguration but as an attacker collects those hashes then they start to apply techniques to crack those hashes so they'll pass the hash and from there they will use open source intelligence common password structures and patterns and other types of techniques to try to crack those hashes into clear text passwords so here node 0 automatically collected hashes it automatically passed the hashes to crack those credentials and then from there it starts to take the domain user user ID passwords that it's collected and tries to access different services and systems in your Enterprise in this case node 0 is able to successfully gain access to the Office 365 email environment because three employees didn't have MFA configured so now what happens is node 0 has a placement and access in the business email system which sets up the conditions for fraud lateral phishing and other techniques but what's especially insightful here is that 80 of the hashes that were collected in this pen test were cracked in 15 minutes or less 80 percent 26 of the user accounts had a password that followed a pretty obvious pattern first initial last initial and four random digits the other thing that was interesting is 10 percent of service accounts had their user ID the same as their password so VMware admin VMware admin web sphere admin web Square admin so on and so forth and so attackers don't have to hack in they just log in with credentials that they've collected the next story here is becoming WS AWS admin so in this example once again internal pen test node zero gets initial access it discovers 2 000 hosts are network reachable from that environment if fingerprints and organizes all of that data into a cyber Terrain map from there it it fingerprints that hpilo the integrated lights out service was running on a subset of hosts hpilo is a service that is often not instrumented or observed by security teams nor is it easy to patch as a result attackers know this and immediately go after those types of services so in this case that ILO service was exploitable and were able to get code execution on it ILO stores all the user IDs and passwords in clear text in a particular set of processes so once we gain code execution we were able to dump all of the credentials and then from there laterally maneuver to log in to the windows box next door as admin and then on that admin box we're able to gain access to the share drives and we found a credentials file saved on a share Drive from there it turned out that credentials file was the AWS admin credentials file giving us full admin authority to their AWS accounts not a single security alert was triggered in this attack because the customer wasn't observing the ILO service and every step thereafter was a valid login in the environment and so what do you do step one patch the server step two delete the credentials file from the share drive and then step three is get better instrumentation on privileged access users and login the final story I'll tell is a typical pattern that we see across the board with that combines the various techniques I've described together where an attacker is going to go off and use open source intelligence to find all of the employees that work at your company from there they're going to look up those employees on dark web breach databases and other forms of information and then use that as a starting point to password spray to compromise a domain user all it takes is one employee to reuse a breached password for their Corporate email or all it takes is a single employee to have a weak password that's easily guessable all it takes is one and once the attacker is able to gain domain user access in most shops domain user is also the local admin on their laptop and once your local admin you can dump Sam and get local admin until M hashes you can use that to reuse credentials again local admin on neighboring machines and attackers will start to rinse and repeat then eventually they're able to get to a point where they can dump lsas or by unhooking the anti-virus defeating the EDR or finding a misconfigured EDR as we've talked about earlier to compromise the domain and what's consistent is that the fundamentals are broken at these shops they have poor password policies they don't have least access privilege implemented active directory groups are too permissive where domain admin or domain user is also the local admin uh AV or EDR Solutions are misconfigured or easily unhooked and so on and what we found in 10 000 pen tests is that user Behavior analytics tools never caught us in that lateral movement in part because those tools require pristine logging data in order to work and also it becomes very difficult to find that Baseline of normal usage versus abnormal usage of credential login another interesting Insight is there were several Marquee brand name mssps that were defending our customers environment and for them it took seven hours to detect and respond to the pen test seven hours the pen test was over in less than two hours and so what you had was an egregious violation of the service level agreements that that mssp had in place and the customer was able to use us to get service credit and drive accountability of their sock and of their provider the third interesting thing is in one case it took us seven minutes to become domain admin in a bank that bank had every Gucci security tool you could buy yet in 7 minutes and 19 seconds node zero started as an unauthenticated member of the network and was able to escalate privileges through chaining and misconfigurations in lateral movement and so on to become domain admin if it's seven minutes today we should assume it'll be less than a minute a year or two from now making it very difficult for humans to be able to detect and respond to that type of Blitzkrieg attack so that's in the find it's not just about finding problems though the bulk of the effort should be what to do about it the fix and the verify so as you find those problems back to kubernetes as an example we will show you the path here is the kill chain we took to compromise that environment we'll show you the impact here is the impact or here's the the proof of exploitation that we were able to use to be able to compromise it and there's the actual command that we executed so you could copy and paste that command and compromise that cubelet yourself if you want and then the impact is we got code execution and we'll actually show you here is the impact this is a critical here's why it enabled perimeter breach affected applications will tell you the specific IPS where you've got the problem how it maps to the miter attack framework and then we'll tell you exactly how to fix it we'll also show you what this problem enabled so you can accurately prioritize why this is important or why it's not important the next part is accurate prioritization the hardest part of my job as a CIO was deciding what not to fix so if you take SMB signing not required as an example by default that CVSs score is a one out of 10. but this misconfiguration is not a cve it's a misconfig enable an attacker to gain access to 19 credentials including one domain admin two local admins and access to a ton of data because of that context this is really a 10 out of 10. you better fix this as soon as possible however of the seven occurrences that we found it's only a critical in three out of the seven and these are the three specific machines and we'll tell you the exact way to fix it and you better fix these as soon as possible for these four machines over here these didn't allow us to do anything of consequence so that because the hardest part is deciding what not to fix you can justifiably choose not to fix these four issues right now and just add them to your backlog and surge your team to fix these three as quickly as possible and then once you fix these three you don't have to re-run the entire pen test you can select these three and then one click verify and run a very narrowly scoped pen test that is only testing this specific issue and what that creates is a much faster cycle of finding and fixing problems the other part of fixing is verifying that you don't have sensitive data at risk so once we become a domain user we're able to use those domain user credentials and try to gain access to databases file shares S3 buckets git repos and so on and help you understand what sensitive data you have at risk so in this example a green checkbox means we logged in as a valid domain user we're able to get read write access on the database this is how many records we could have accessed and we don't actually look at the values in the database but we'll show you the schema so you can quickly characterize that pii data was at risk here and we'll do that for your file shares and other sources of data so now you can accurately articulate the data you have at risk and prioritize cleaning that data up especially data that will lead to a fine or a big news issue so that's the find that's the fix now we're going to talk about the verify the key part in verify is embracing and integrating with detection engineering practices so when you think about your layers of security tools you've got lots of tools in place on average 130 tools at any given customer but these tools were not designed to work together so when you run a pen test what you want to do is say did you detect us did you log us did you alert on us did you stop us and from there what you want to see is okay what are the techniques that are commonly used to defeat an environment to actually compromise if you look at the top 10 techniques we use and there's far more than just these 10 but these are the most often executed nine out of ten have nothing to do with cves it has to do with misconfigurations dangerous product defaults bad credential policies and it's how we chain those together to become a domain admin or compromise a host so what what customers will do is every single attacker command we executed is provided to you as an attackivity log so you can actually see every single attacker command we ran the time stamp it was executed the hosts it executed on and how it Maps the minor attack tactics so our customers will have are these attacker logs on one screen and then they'll go look into Splunk or exabeam or Sentinel one or crowdstrike and say did you detect us did you log us did you alert on us or not and to make that even easier if you take this example hey Splunk what logs did you see at this time on the VMware host because that's when node 0 is able to dump credentials and that allows you to identify and fix your logging blind spots to make that easier we've got app integration so this is an actual Splunk app in the Splunk App Store and what you can come is inside the Splunk console itself you can fire up the Horizon 3 node 0 app all of the pen test results are here so that you can see all of the results in one place and you don't have to jump out of the tool and what you'll show you as I skip forward is hey there's a pen test here are the critical issues that we've identified for that weaker default issue here are the exact commands we executed and then we will automatically query into Splunk all all terms on between these times on that endpoint that relate to this attack so you can now quickly within the Splunk environment itself figure out that you're missing logs or that you're appropriately catching this issue and that becomes incredibly important in that detection engineering cycle that I mentioned earlier so how do our customers end up using us they shift from running one pen test a year to 30 40 pen tests a month oftentimes wiring us into their deployment automation to automatically run pen tests the other part that they'll do is as they run more pen tests they find more issues but eventually they hit this inflection point where they're able to rapidly clean up their environment and that inflection point is because the red and the blue teams start working together in a purple team culture and now they're working together to proactively harden their environment the other thing our customers will do is run us from different perspectives they'll first start running an RFC 1918 scope to see once the attacker gained initial access in a part of the network that had wide access what could they do and then from there they'll run us within a specific Network segment okay from within that segment could the attacker break out and gain access to another segment then they'll run us from their work from home environment could they Traverse the VPN and do something damaging and once they're in could they Traverse the VPN and get into my cloud then they'll break in from the outside all of these perspectives are available to you in Horizon 3 and node zero as a single SKU and you can run as many pen tests as you want if you run a phishing campaign and find that an intern in the finance department had the worst phishing behavior you can then inject their credentials and actually show the end-to-end story of how an attacker fished gained credentials of an intern and use that to gain access to sensitive financial data so what our customers end up doing is running multiple attacks from multiple perspectives and looking at those results over time I'll leave you two things one is what is the AI in Horizon 3 AI those knowledge graphs are the heart and soul of everything that we do and we use machine learning reinforcement techniques reinforcement learning techniques Markov decision models and so on to be able to efficiently maneuver and analyze the paths in those really large graphs we also use context-based scoring to prioritize weaknesses and we're also able to drive collective intelligence across all of the operations so the more pen tests we run the smarter we get and all of that is based on our knowledge graph analytics infrastructure that we have finally I'll leave you with this was my decision criteria when I was a buyer for my security testing strategy what I cared about was coverage I wanted to be able to assess my on-prem cloud perimeter and work from home and be safe to run in production I want to be able to do that as often as I wanted I want to be able to run pen tests in hours or days not weeks or months so I could accelerate that fine fix verify loop I wanted my it admins and network Engineers with limited offensive experience to be able to run a pen test in a few clicks through a self-service experience and not have to install agent and not have to write custom scripts and finally I didn't want to get nickeled and dimed on having to buy different types of attack modules or different types of attacks I wanted a single annual subscription that allowed me to run any type of attack as often as I wanted so I could look at my Trends in directions over time so I hope you found this talk valuable uh we're easy to find and I look forward to seeing seeing you use a product and letting our results do the talking when you look at uh you know kind of the way no our pen testing algorithms work is we dynamically select uh how to compromise an environment based on what we've discovered and the goal is to become a domain admin compromise a host compromise domain users find ways to encrypt data steal sensitive data and so on but when you look at the the top 10 techniques that we ended up uh using to compromise environments the first nine have nothing to do with cves and that's the reality cves are yes a vector but less than two percent of cves are actually used in a compromise oftentimes it's some sort of credential collection credential cracking uh credential pivoting and using that to become an admin and then uh compromising environments from that point on so I'll leave this up for you to kind of read through and you'll have the slides available for you but I found it very insightful that organizations and ourselves when I was a GE included invested heavily in just standard vulnerability Management Programs when I was at DOD that's all disa cared about asking us about was our our kind of our cve posture but the attackers have adapted to not rely on cves to get in because they know that organizations are actively looking at and patching those cves and instead they're chaining together credentials from one place with misconfigurations and dangerous product defaults in another to take over an environment a concrete example is by default vcenter backups are not encrypted and so as if an attacker finds vcenter what they'll do is find the backup location and there are specific V sender MTD files where the admin credentials are parsippled in the binaries so you can actually as an attacker find the right MTD file parse out the binary and now you've got the admin credentials for the vcenter environment and now start to log in as admin there's a bad habit by signal officers and Signal practitioners in the in the Army and elsewhere where the the VM notes section of a virtual image has the password for the VM well those VM notes are not stored encrypted and attackers know this and they're able to go off and find the VMS that are unencrypted find the note section and pull out the passwords for those images and then reuse those credentials across the board so I'll pause here and uh you know Patrick love you get some some commentary on on these techniques and other things that you've seen and what we'll do in the last say 10 to 15 minutes is uh is rolled through a little bit more on what do you do about it yeah yeah no I love it I think um I think this is pretty exhaustive what I like about what you've done here is uh you know we've seen we've seen double-digit increases in the number of organizations that are reporting actual breaches year over year for the last um for the last three years and it's often we kind of in the Zeitgeist we pegged that on ransomware which of course is like incredibly important and very top of mind um but what I like about what you have here is you know we're reminding the audience that the the attack surface area the vectors the matter um you know has to be more comprehensive than just thinking about ransomware scenarios yeah right on um so let's build on this when you think about your defense in depth you've got multiple security controls that you've purchased and integrated and you've got that redundancy if a control fails but the reality is that these security tools aren't designed to work together so when you run a pen test what you want to ask yourself is did you detect node zero did you log node zero did you alert on node zero and did you stop node zero and when you think about how to do that every single attacker command executed by node zero is available in an attacker log so you can now see you know at the bottom here vcenter um exploit at that time on that IP how it aligns to minor attack what you want to be able to do is go figure out did your security tools catch this or not and that becomes very important in using the attacker's perspective to improve your defensive security controls and so the way we've tried to make this easier back to like my my my the you know I bleed Green in many ways still from my smoke background is you want to be able to and what our customers do is hey we'll look at the attacker logs on one screen and they'll look at what did Splunk see or Miss in another screen and then they'll use that to figure out what their logging blind spots are and what that where that becomes really interesting is we've actually built out an integration into Splunk where there's a Splunk app you can download off of Splunk base and you'll get all of the pen test results right there in the Splunk console and from that Splunk console you're gonna be able to see these are all the pen tests that were run these are the issues that were found um so you can look at that particular pen test here are all of the weaknesses that were identified for that particular pen test and how they categorize out for each of those weaknesses you can click on any one of them that are critical in this case and then we'll tell you for that weakness and this is where where the the punch line comes in so I'll pause the video here for that weakness these are the commands that were executed on these endpoints at this time and then we'll actually query Splunk for that um for that IP address or containing that IP and these are the source types that surface any sort of activity so what we try to do is help you as quickly and efficiently as possible identify the logging blind spots in your Splunk environment based on the attacker's perspective so as this video kind of plays through you can see it Patrick I'd love to get your thoughts um just seeing so many Splunk deployments and the effectiveness of those deployments and and how this is going to help really Elevate the effectiveness of all of your Splunk customers yeah I'm super excited about this I mean I think this these kinds of purpose-built integration snail really move the needle for our customers I mean at the end of the day when I think about the power of Splunk I think about a product I was first introduced to 12 years ago that was an on-prem piece of software you know and at the time it sold on sort of Perpetual and term licenses but one made it special was that it could it could it could eat data at a speed that nothing else that I'd have ever seen you can ingest massively scalable amounts of data uh did cool things like schema on read which facilitated that there was this language called SPL that you could nerd out about uh and you went to a conference once a year and you talked about all the cool things you were splunking right but now as we think about the next phase of our growth um we live in a heterogeneous environment where our customers have so many different tools and data sources that are ever expanding and as you look at the as you look at the role of the ciso it's mind-blowing to me the amount of sources Services apps that are coming into the ciso span of let's just call it a span of influence in the last three years uh you know we're seeing things like infrastructure service level visibility application performance monitoring stuff that just never made sense for the security team to have visibility into you um at least not at the size and scale which we're demanding today um and and that's different and this isn't this is why it's so important that we have these joint purpose-built Integrations that um really provide more prescription to our customers about how do they walk on that Journey towards maturity what does zero to one look like what does one to two look like whereas you know 10 years ago customers were happy with platforms today they want integration they want Solutions and they want to drive outcomes and I think this is a great example of how together we are stepping to the evolving nature of the market and also the ever-evolving nature of the threat landscape and what I would say is the maturing needs of the customer in that environment yeah for sure I think especially if if we all anticipate budget pressure over the next 18 months due to the economy and elsewhere while the security budgets are not going to ever I don't think they're going to get cut they're not going to grow as fast and there's a lot more pressure on organizations to extract more value from their existing Investments as well as extracting more value and more impact from their existing teams and so security Effectiveness Fierce prioritization and automation I think become the three key themes of security uh over the next 18 months so I'll do very quickly is run through a few other use cases um every host that we identified in the pen test were able to score and say this host allowed us to do something significant therefore it's it's really critical you should be increasing your logging here hey these hosts down here we couldn't really do anything as an attacker so if you do have to make trade-offs you can make some trade-offs of your logging resolution at the lower end in order to increase logging resolution on the upper end so you've got that level of of um justification for where to increase or or adjust your logging resolution another example is every host we've discovered as an attacker we Expose and you can export and we want to make sure is every host we found as an attacker is being ingested from a Splunk standpoint a big issue I had as a CIO and user of Splunk and other tools is I had no idea if there were Rogue Raspberry Pi's on the network or if a new box was installed and whether Splunk was installed on it or not so now you can quickly start to correlate what hosts did we see and how does that reconcile with what you're logging from uh finally or second to last use case here on the Splunk integration side is for every single problem we've found we give multiple options for how to fix it this becomes a great way to prioritize what fixed actions to automate in your soar platform and what we want to get to eventually is being able to automatically trigger soar actions to fix well-known problems like automatically invalidating passwords for for poor poor passwords in our credentials amongst a whole bunch of other things we could go off and do and then finally if there is a well-known kill chain or attack path one of the things I really wish I could have done when I was a Splunk customer was take this type of kill chain that actually shows a path to domain admin that I'm sincerely worried about and use it as a glass table over which I could start to layer possible indicators of compromise and now you've got a great starting point for glass tables and iocs for actual kill chains that we know are exploitable in your environment and that becomes some super cool Integrations that we've got on the roadmap between us and the Splunk security side of the house so what I'll leave with actually Patrick before I do that you know um love to get your comments and then I'll I'll kind of leave with one last slide on this wartime security mindset uh pending you know assuming there's no other questions no I love it I mean I think this kind of um it's kind of glass table's approach to how do you how do you sort of visualize these workflows and then use things like sore and orchestration and automation to operationalize them is exactly where we see all of our customers going and getting away from I think an over engineered approach to soar with where it has to be super technical heavy with you know python programmers and getting more to this visual view of workflow creation um that really demystifies the power of Automation and also democratizes it so you don't have to have these programming languages in your resume in order to start really moving the needle on workflow creation policy enforcement and ultimately driving automation coverage across more and more of the workflows that your team is seeing yeah I think that between us being able to visualize the actual kill chain or attack path with you know think of a of uh the soar Market I think going towards this no code low code um you know configurable sore versus coded sore that's going to really be a game changer in improve or giving security teams a force multiplier so what I'll leave you with is this peacetime mindset of security no longer is sustainable we really have to get out of checking the box and then waiting for the bad guys to show up to verify that security tools are are working or not and the reason why we've got to really do that quickly is there are over a thousand companies that withdrew from the Russian economy over the past uh nine months due to the Ukrainian War there you should expect every one of them to be punished by the Russians for leaving and punished from a cyber standpoint and this is no longer about financial extortion that is ransomware this is about punishing and destroying companies and you can punish any one of these companies by going after them directly or by going after their suppliers and their Distributors so suddenly your attack surface is no more no longer just your own Enterprise it's how you bring your goods to Market and it's how you get your goods created because while I may not be able to disrupt your ability to harvest fruit if I can get those trucks stuck at the border I can increase spoilage and have the same effect and what we should expect to see is this idea of cyber-enabled economic Warfare where if we issue a sanction like Banning the Russians from traveling there is a cyber-enabled counter punch which is corrupt and destroy the American Airlines database that is below the threshold of War that's not going to trigger the 82nd Airborne to be mobilized but it's going to achieve the right effect ban the sale of luxury goods disrupt the supply chain and create shortages banned Russian oil and gas attack refineries to call a 10x spike in gas prices three days before the election this is the future and therefore I think what we have to do is shift towards a wartime mindset which is don't trust your security posture verify it see yourself Through The Eyes of the attacker build that incident response muscle memory and drive better collaboration between the red and the blue teams your suppliers and Distributors and your information uh sharing organization they have in place and what's really valuable for me as a Splunk customer was when a router crashes at that moment you don't know if it's due to an I.T Administration problem or an attacker and what you want to have are different people asking different questions of the same data and you want to have that integrated triage process of an I.T lens to that problem a security lens to that problem and then from there figuring out is is this an IT workflow to execute or a security incident to execute and you want to have all of that as an integrated team integrated process integrated technology stack and this is something that I very care I cared very deeply about as both a Splunk customer and a Splunk CTO that I see time and time again across the board so Patrick I'll leave you with the last word the final three minutes here and I don't see any open questions so please take us home oh man see how you think we spent hours and hours prepping for this together that that last uh uh 40 seconds of your talk track is probably one of the things I'm most passionate about in this industry right now uh and I think nist has done some really interesting work here around building cyber resilient organizations that have that has really I think helped help the industry see that um incidents can come from adverse conditions you know stress is uh uh performance taxations in the infrastructure service or app layer and they can come from malicious compromises uh Insider threats external threat actors and the more that we look at this from the perspective of of a broader cyber resilience Mission uh in a wartime mindset uh I I think we're going to be much better off and and will you talk about with operationally minded ice hacks information sharing intelligence sharing becomes so important in these wartime uh um situations and you know we know not all ice acts are created equal but we're also seeing a lot of um more ad hoc information sharing groups popping up so look I think I think you framed it really really well I love the concept of wartime mindset and um I I like the idea of applying a cyber resilience lens like if you have one more layer on top of that bottom right cake you know I think the it lens and the security lens they roll up to this concept of cyber resilience and I think this has done some great work there for us yeah you're you're spot on and that that is app and that's gonna I think be the the next um terrain that that uh that you're gonna see vendors try to get after but that I think Splunk is best position to win okay that's a wrap for this special Cube presentation you heard all about the global expansion of horizon 3.ai's partner program for their Partners have a unique opportunity to take advantage of their node zero product uh International go to Market expansion North America channel Partnerships and just overall relationships with companies like Splunk to make things more comprehensive in this disruptive cyber security world we live in and hope you enjoyed this program all the videos are available on thecube.net as well as check out Horizon 3 dot AI for their pen test Automation and ultimately their defense system that they use for testing always the environment that you're in great Innovative product and I hope you enjoyed the program again I'm John Furrier host of the cube thanks for watching

>>Good afternoon. Welcome back to the cube. Lisa Martin here with Dave Nicholson. We are live in San Francisco at Moscone west for VMware Explorer, 2022. We're excited to welcome a new cube guest to the program. Steve Bravo joins us the SVP of edge technology at Luman. Great to have you on the program. Thank >>You very much for having me. Appreciate it. Welcome. >>Talk to us a little bit about, we've had several conversations with Luman folks over the last day and a half, but talk to us a little bit about it from your perspective, the VMware relationship with Luman. Okay. >>So it's actually, you know, we have been partners for the last 20 years. Okay. When, when VMware was really cutting its teeth in the, the virtualized space Luman, and one of its, you know, companies that acquired through time was really a, a cutting edge user of VMware technologies. And as, as time has evolved and VMware's technologies have evolved, we have grown with VMware. So much of the software they write is embedded not only within our network, but on our edge platforms and extended out to the, the, the hyperscalers as well as in the client pre. So it's an ever growing partnership and, and one that we're continually innovating and creating better outcomes for, for really the, the enterprise space. >>Talk about those enterprise customers and some of the outcomes that you are helping to deliver. What's the joint value prop that Luman and BM bring to the enterprise. >>So really stronger together, right? If you think about the strengths that Luman has, it's really our, our, our network. We call that our central nervous system, our, our, our platform. Okay. So all of our edge technologies and compute capabilities that we're able to deploy in our edge centers, data centers globally, as well as out to prem, we lay the software technologies that VMware creates not only from a hyper virtualized sense, but also through sassy through security and also out to workspace one. So it's their entire suite, we're able to support it. So with those, we create amazing technology solutions to serve the enterprise, whether it's healthcare, whether it's manufacturing, retail space, the customers are plenty in the use cases are endless. >>You talked about your history and, and at the foundation of what you do this sort of idea of a central nervous system. Yeah. The network, if we wanted to completely geek out, we could just talk about that. Yeah. For an hour. Sure. We could, but we're not going to, we were talking just, you know, before we came live, came on, live about lumens philosophy and how you're taking that foundation, that network, that central nervous system, and you have a philosophy about what you want to achieve with it. And the other things you layer on top of it. Yeah. Tell, tell us about that. Cause I thought was >>Interesting it's so it it's really all about furthering human progress with technology. Okay. We're very lucky that we have the global network that we do, but the workloads, right? The applications that make really life kind of, you know, go round in today's world lives in, in forms and factors of compute that hang off of the network. We're very lucky that we can bring that all together. So over the years, you know, every enterprise has a different need, right? They're trying to solve a problem. We want to help them solve that problem. Right. We bring our technology, our capabilities, our experience, and, and experts to really cater to and, and be that partner that can, that can build the entire stack for them to allow them to be very, very efficient in their place of competition. So >>I wanna hear, I wanna hear a concrete example of that in action. Sure. But, but I think it's interesting, not just from a, what is happening on the outside perspective, but it's also very interesting culturally yes. From a, an organizational perspective when you wake up in the morning and you have that mindset, that that's what your mission is. Sure. That's a lot different than waking up in the morning, thinking I'm going to deploy 50 terabytes of storage. Absolutely. I'm going to install nine ports and yellow cables and blue cables in my switch. That's right. Thinking you're toiling and obscurity. So everybody, everybody illumined then is waking up with this mission in mind. Yes. Which makes the day a lot easier to get through when you're, when you're having to work hard. But give me, give a, gimme a concrete example of that in, in motion. >>Sure. So it's actually, it's, it's about those outcomes and those use cases, right. I, I explain to my kids, sometimes they're like, dad tell me, you know, like tell me what you do. And if you start talking about the cables and the compute, they, their eyes gloss over. But if I say to him, you know, remember when you were sick and it was during COVID and you couldn't go to the doctor. Right. And we were able to pop open the computer and we were able to see a doctor on the screen and they had to stick your tongue out and do all the things you got care. And we were able to deliver that based on our platform, based on our network, we helped healthcare providers, you know, go remote to see patients as COVID was happening and people were going to the hospital. So that's just a real world scenario that we did for a very large network when people were dealing with it, they needed to really expand horizontally horizontally to allow care providers, to operate in different areas. And we were able to hit it outta the park. >>That's a great explanation. Did, did your kids go, wow, dad, that's >>Awesome. Absolutely. Absolutely. But then they're like, anything else, like, is there anything else cool. And talk about sporting stadiums, lighting up, you know, a different venue where they go and they're able to from their, you know, phone order, a soda or a pretzel and, and with the different sensors from an I two, >>Now you're talking >>Yeah. Perspective like dad, you guys did this. Yes. You know, it it's, so it resonates. And those, those use cases, if you think about the building blocks, right. Whether it's the medical scenario or, or a, a smart stadium, the building blocks are very similar. Right. And we're lucky enough that you put those building blocks together in a, in a, in a prescriptive way for a specific outcome. You're able to play with strikes and you're able to get better scale and you're able to move fast because the technology industry we're in is it's. I mean, it's, it's moving at light speeds >>As the edge become grows and grows and expands and becomes more and more amorphous, how have your customer conversations changed as there's more demand for every company to become a data company, to be a security company. Right. How have they kind of elevated up the stack to the C-suite >>We've really had to just pivot to talking about that, that outcome, that, that entity, that, that enterprise is really trying to achieve. You know, if you think about, you know, the, the two examples, another one, it could be very, you know, cost driven. It could be that we need to get to market in a much more rapid fashion at a global level. How can we stamp things out quickly? So you take those outcomes, show them how the technology's going to enable it, and then you can really open the door for the return. Right. Did you get the cost savings? Yes. Did you, did you achieve that time to market for, it could be seasonality, right. Right. People don't have to pay for the full boat anymore. If, if let's say there are an online marketplace and it it's huge around the seasons, right. Around the holiday season, there's gonna be big peaks that they have there. Right. We like to be able to have them burst and, and ebb and flow. So it's all about that outcome. And getting to that, the technology pieces, you just put 'em together to accommodate. >>What, what does your go-to market strategy look like? How do you engage with customers? You know, there are, there are finite number of seats, strategic seats at a customer table. Yeah. Are you typically going in arm and arm with partners and alliances? What does that ecosystem look like? Or do you, do you have a direct sales force that engages customers? Yep. Tell, tell me about the, how the whole thing >>Works. So we have a direct sales force. Okay. And we like to play to our strengths. So we have a great Alliance partners as well. So that arm and arm absolutely happens where we are heavily connected already at C-suites. They're able to walk in and make those types of relationships and outcomes a reality. But we find that we are, we're better with partners playing to their strengths with us. Right. If we come in and show up and we have that complete stack, the software experts as well, our assets, our platform, our network, it's really a one, two punch wrap with our service capabilities at a global level that it's unbeatable. So we show up to the very best of our abilities with our alliances. And then with those more steep relationships where we've been there, where we have the relationships, there's more of a trust factor, but it's all about building trust. And we gotta, we gotta show up appropriately to do that. >>So if it's unbeatable, why do customers choose? Luin what, what's the value prop that you talk to customers about? >>So if you think about a, a COO or CIO or CTO and all of the different things, you need to purchase to make outcomes a reality, whether it's network, whether it's compute, whether it's storage, whether it's software, right? Whether it's people, it becomes very easy. If you have a partner that can do all of that for you and it's their assets, right? So we have those assets. We have those, you know, you know, our, our employees are absolutely our greatest asset. My, in my opinion, at a global level. And then we partner with the biggest software manufacturers, like, like an AWS or a, like a VMware. And we, we loaded into our, our fabric. And now we have literally the entire stack right there. It's a single hand to shake rather than I needed to go to a network provider to go to compute provider storage, security. Like you get that holistic solution approach makes it far easier. And that's a, it's a huge differentiator. And >>You, you, you said AWS. Yeah. You work with all you work with all, all the >>Har hyperscalers. Like if you think about the cloud, the, I'll say the, the big three, right? AWS, Google, and Microsoft, everything is using the cloud and the fact that we can connect to it in dynamic ways and extend that experience all the way out to our edge and on-prem and deliver the same experience again, massive differentiator. >>So from your customer's point of view, you can be agnostic. Yes. So you, you can say, well, Azure for this AWS, for that maybe run VMware in both >>100, >>Both context. Interesting stat that was brought up to Lisa and I yesterday through the VCP P program. Yep. The, the VMware cloud provider program, if you aggregate all of that cloud stuff, that's going on, that becomes the third or fourth largest cloud on earth. Yeah. So a lot of the messaging, a lot of the stuff they're talking about now has to do with that. So you, so for example, you could be involved in deploying that software defined data center stack in a variety of hyperscale class. Yes. Where appropriate for people? >>Yeah. 100%. And whether it's in the hyperscalers or in their own data center, in one of our platforms, the, the, the, the biggest differentiators, it's gonna be the same. Right? You have that partner that can do it for you no matter where the venue is. So that's really the, the coming of hybrid cloud, very agnostic. But I always say, it's the best venue. Right? You have different applications are gonna need different things, build it to suit. And when you do that, okay. And it's, and you're not pushing one way, you're taking the, the requirements you build trust. And when you build trust, you build long lasting relationships with your clients, and that's, that's what it's about. And you then make more great outcomes, a reality, >>Right. That trust is absolutely critical. It's currency really is. Yes. Talk about, you have a, a joint innovation lab with VMware. Talk a little bit about that. What is it all about? How long have you guys been doing it? What exciting things are coming from it? So >>We, we, we launched at about 18 months ago. Some, some, some amazing thinkers, you know, on our team and their team came together and it's really to, to keep pace with the market. Okay. So platforms and software evolve at a, at a, at a certain pace, right. And it's always speeding up, but creating use cases within that lab to solve a common core set of problems for maybe a specific vertical is really what it's intended to do. So when the software's ready to kind of an incubation engine that we're testing these use cases, so we can then go deploy and begin solving immediately when market ready. So it, it, it puts us ahead of the game. It gives us those at bats. So we're very comfortable deploying. And, and I would say, you know, created that muscle memory before you're going live in a, in a client environment. >>And then you can show, see, you know, and seen is believing. So there are multiple just, I'll say different, you know, IOT use cases that we're doing right now, 5g wireless, you know, untethered headsets, things of that nature. You think about some of the VI and, and AI capabilities that are emerging, whether it's digital twin, whether it's literally T sensors with packages, tracking those types of things, the use cases are endless. But the, the cool thing about it is you're testing those building blocks that I kind of keep referring to. And you're expanding the portfolio of use cases that you can solve with them. And when you start to see patterns, you now have use cases that can solve many similar needs and outcomes. So it's a, it's a huge differentiator. We're lucky to have the, the teams, the, the collective teams together, making those outcomes a reality, some of the best technologies I've ever seen. >>So the joint innovation lab formed about 18 months ago during the pandemic. What was the compelling event or was, was that part of it, or was it customer demand that, that caused you guys to go, you know what, let's come together and actually build a joint lab. >>We saw how fast things were moving. We wanted to say, okay, as something's getting ready to roll out, let's start touching it before, before it's market ready. So when it does, we can hit market and begin generating those outcomes immediately. And it, it, it took a little doing, but it came to place very quickly, like mines, right. Thinking the right way, you get a good outcome. >>So if you think about the way that a lot of consolidation has happened, yeah. Over, over recent years, you have large cloud vendors, including VMware. If you, if you accept that definition of their partner program, spanning their software to find data center stack across clouds. And then on the other side of the chasm, you have the organizations that help people take the technology and move it into the realm of outcomes. Yes. Doing actual things with the shiny toys, right. It's one thing to develop the shiny toys. It's another thing to get value out of them. Right. You guys are in that middle space, that critical space. So are the largest global systems integrators in the world. Sure. So how do you, how do you work with, or are you strictly competitive with yeah. The, you know, the, the alphabet soup of, of, yeah. Of global systems integrators, where do you fit into that space? >>So, so again, go back to those, the assets and the capabilities that we have, right? The power users of software, we have a manage and professional services organization, and it's all about, I'll say day zero day one, think of that consultative professional services approach to literally discover, define design, analyze what that outcome is, and then build and deploy. Okay. So migration, you know, transition of workloads, all tee it up for the day, two type capabilities where we are different, those assets that we're building on are hours. Okay. You know, the Accentures, the Deloittes, they're amazing, right. They're also sourcing network, they're sourcing compute, they're sourcing edge. They're sourcing things from other third providers. We are the power users of our capabilities that makes us the best at it. So that integration, we have the, the, the ways to put the, the instructions to put those Legos together better than anybody else. >>Well, so does that mean that you are best targeting at a certain market segment? Where possibly, would you seed some market to the largest of, of global systems integrators at some point? Sure. >>So, so there are certain things that they are amazing at, right. Think about some of the, the, the biggest M applications and things like that. We're power users and power deployers of SAP. That's really, the niche is high up that will go into the app stack, right? Doing the dynamics, doing different types of Oracle suites and things of that nature, let them go there. Right. But enabling applications to live on our platforms and across our networks, we play to our strengths there, leveraging software technologies like VMware, right. And the hyperscalers that's really where I don't wanna say it's their hard boundaries, but again, it's boundaries where we have strength. We will always wanna play to our strengths and be honest, right. If you're honest about your capabilities, you will win the business that you were, that you were great at. And that's what we did. >>Yeah. I, I think there's huge opportunity in that space, frankly. I think not too long ago when asked, I think a lot of people would say, Hmm, it's all gonna be consolidation. There's gonna be five standing over here, five standing over there and they're gonna work together and everyone else is gonna have to go work for those people. What we've seen is organizations like lumen yeah. Taking their historical capabilities and finding that space. Sure. It's really, really interesting to see that >>There's one thing that I'll add too. And the, you know, the, the, the way of the world is automation and orchestration. Okay. When you own the platforms, when you own the technologies that you're able to work with, you're able to evolve those capabilities and it, it, it stays your intellectual property, right. That intellectual property gives you amazing scale too. So that's one of the things that we've been lucky enough to do is we're continually working and involving that suite of orchestration and automation, that layers on top of our platform, right. Our platform for amazing things is it's that automation, orchestration is very key to making it go round. >>Speaking of amazing things, what are some of the things on the horizon for Lumin and VMware? What can customers look forward to in the coming months? >>So yesterday we actually just launched our sassy offering. So that's amazing and great job to the product teams for >>That. I, I, I, I gave one of your colleagues grief yesterday. He didn't appreciate it. I'm sure, but it's considered a party foul to let's, let's remind people what sassy stands for. >>So, so secure a access service edge, basically, all right. Software to find networking. Plus security it's really becomes a dynamic network, right. One that can live, breathe and grow and, and VMware has amazing technology yeah. That we are leveraging that's really the under or the, the overlay network for, for our network. And then we're also even scaling that out too, to, to, to include carbon black security offerings. Okay. As well as workspace one. So those are additional evolutions, some of the, the, the further enhancements with Tansu and Kubernetes. Right, right. In the portfolio as well. So as that capability expands. So, so does, so does the efforts that we have with it. >>Fantastic. Awesome. >>Steve, thank you so much for joining David. Me, I program appreciate talking about lumen. What's going on there, how you're working better together with VMware and the, and the outcomes that you're delivering for customers. We appreciate your time. Thank >>You very much greatly. Appreciate >>It. Our pleasure. Thank you for our guest and Dave Nicholson. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the cube day two coverage of VMware Explorer, 2022, Dave. And I will be right back with our next guest. So don't change the channel.

>> Thinking back over the past 15 years of the modern cloud computing era we were first told that cloud was only for startups. It was for experiments, entire kickers. No IT executive would ever move production workloads or strategic data into the cloud. No financial services firm is another example would ever move anything into the cloud. Multi-cloud then emerged as a symptom of multi-vendor or of mergers and acquisitions or both. Fast forward now to 2022 and customers clearly want to take advantage of the best services that each cloud offers. For example, Azure for Microsoft apps, Amazon for IS, Google cloud for AI, Oracle for database, et cetera. However, this approach requires expertise in each cloud's primitives, tools and APIs and it puts the burden on customers to integrate apps and workloads across clouds, which increases cost, it exposes security risks and it creates time to market friction. The future of cloud is no longer just on-prem to cloud or so-called hybrid, but cloud to cloud. What many call multi-cloud and at the cube, we like to think beyond the conventional view of multi-cloud, and it's why we use the term super cloud as a metaphor for cross cloud services that are purpose built to solve a specific problem. While at the same time leveraging the best that various cloud providers have to offer. Karan Batta is the vice president of product management at OCI for Oracle and Kris Rice is the vice president of software development at Oracle database, and both are joining me in this cube conversation to discuss how Oracle and Microsoft are helping customers address cross cloud integration issues, making it possible for customers to use popular Azure based tools and Oracle databases and what the firm's claim is a simplified, secure and more facile experience, effectively making two clouds appear as one to developers and, and users. Gentlemen, welcome. Thanks for coming on the cube. >> Thanks for having me, Dave >> Karan, let's start with the news. What are you announcing? Why is it important to each company and what does it mean for your customers? >> Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having me, Dave. I think, you know, what, what I can tell you is Microsoft and Oracle actually share a massive enterprise customer base. The same customers that are using Office 365 are also the same customer that are storing their critical, mission critical data on Oracle database. So we have thousands of customers that we share jointly and many of them use all sorts of different products from both technology companies. And, you know, multi-cloud, as you, as you sort of rightly pointed out has become the right approach for a lot of our customers to be able to run applications across different cloud providers in a very simplistic manner. You know, that's why we're, you know, with this new announcement we're reducing the complexity of connecting these things together. You know, all of the platform level capabilities, the networking capabilities, the identity management of it, you know, we're calling this new service Oracle database service for Microsoft Azure, and it really brings together a, a cohesive Azure like experience for Oracle customers. It's, you know, it's, it's going to be a new way to actually deploy multi-cloud applications. >> How is this service different from what the Oracle interconnect for Azure partnership that you announced pre pandemic? I think it was 2019. >> Right, right, right. So almost two years ago, you know, we announced this partnership with Microsoft that essentially interconnects the two data center regions from, from Azure and from Oracle. And, you know, it, it provided a great opportunity for customers to, to start their multi-cloud journey by making things like data transfer fees free, et cetera. And now we're close to 11 regions globally, you know, for those interconnected regions. The feedback that we got from customers was, you know, it was a great step in the right direction, but they needed more. And so this experience essentially builds on top of that interconnect, the physical interconnect on the data center side by giving customers an Azure like experience that allows them to basically deploy Oracle databases in a, in a very cohesive fashion with their Azure applications. It also gives them things like, you know, joint support, it gives them things like, you know, joint billing data, et cetera. But it basically allows them to get a first class experience for Oracle database services, you know, across the two clouds. >> It's interesting. I mean, I think back to the history of the industry, you know, before Oracle acquired Sun it would work with every hardware company then of course, you know, had its own hardware. And now it's working with, with Microsoft, who's in essence is a platform, you know, infrastructure company. So it's, it's quite a, quite a journey. Chris, I wonder, wonder if we could bring you into the conversation. What Oracle databases can Azure customers access now? Where, where does autonomous fit? Is that part of the package? >> Yeah, absolutely. So the, the initial offering is going to have all flavors of the Oracle database cloud. So that includes what we call now, the base database, which is database in a VM, the workhorse of the excess CS. So if you truly need the the extra horsepower of the exit data machine and of course it's going to include autonomous right out of the gate. So for customers that want to kick the tires on an Oracle database link with Azure there's no faster path than using autonomous. >> Yeah, so a lot of integration that you guys have done. Well, how does this service compare to other, you know, customers like to compare, they're always talking about their, their choices. How does it compare to others? How, what is the cost associated with this? What can you tell us? >> So from a cost stance, there there's no extra cost. So the only cost is on the base service. So if you get the autonomous, the base database, the exit data, your cost is in that base service. And we include all this plumbing that we've done to make it work best with Azure. And that includes wiring the metrics the logs, the vent home, the audit records to the Azure side of the house. >> And, and, and what what other things are like this out there? Can you share with us? What should customers, you know, compare this to? >> So the majority of what customers have done so far is it, it is DIY. So multi-cloud to date has been very DIY. Anything could be done that we've done. However, customers that have to roll up their sleeves they'd have to learn both clouds, learn the nomenclature of both clouds, they'd have to learn the networking infrastructure and they'd really have to roll their sleeves up and DIY it. What we've done is we've, we've done all that work for them. So it's as simple as a few mouse clicks and the two clouds can be talking together. >> Thank you, okay. Karan, you, you ever see the movie good morning Vietnam and they redact out all the, all the, like the words in the news that they didn't want, want read on the news. And so we hear Microsoft and Oracle, they're talking about multi-cloud, Google sort of talks about unifying cross cloud developer experiences with, with Antos. But when you go, when you go to like reinvent the word multi-cloud is redacted, like the movie. Do you anticipate customers are going to push more from multi-cloud in the future? What are you hearing? >> Yeah, absolutely. I think, I think customers are going to demand this of their cloud providers in the future. I think these are going to be table stakes moving forward. You know, as, as you rightly pointed out, Dave, I think, you know, customers and, and and actually cloud providers are focused on mostly transition from on-prem to the cloud. And I think in the future, you know, once everybody's picked their first cloud provider it's going to be, you know, the focus is going to shift from that to the interoperability across these two clouds or, or multiple clouds. You know, customers will want to have leverage against other cloud providers. Customers will want to pick the best of breed, complimentary services, et cetera, and also have, you know, decisions based on economics, right? So I think, you know, there's going to be a massive acceleration of customers want the support from, from all of their cloud providers. You know, which is why we're basically simply listening to customer feedback. And, you know, as mentioned earlier, we share so many different customers together it totally made sense for Microsoft and Oracle to start investing in it. This is not the entire answer. I think it's start of this journey in, in the future. >> Yeah, it's going to be interesting to see how this plays out. You know, I never say never with, with the hyperscalers or any large technology company. I, I wonder Karan, if we could stay with you. Can you give us some practical examples of, of what this service means for customers? How it's going to help them do something that they couldn't do before? What should we be focused on? >> Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, I think it opens up a whole set of new possibilities. You know, I, I mentioned earlier kind of made a statement where, you know, the world's data kind of lives on Oracle databases. It's, it's the core of, of any mission critical data today. It's still the most popular database use in, in the world. And so, you know, customers want to be able to modify they want to be able to extract more information and and get more knowledge out of their data. And this opens up the possibility where you can use, you can have access to that Oracle database from Azure and you're able to connect it to all the complimentary services which allow you to extract more knowledge or, or insight out of that data. So whether you're moving it into, let's say Azure synapse analytics to do analytics workloads or whether you're moving it to the HUD cluster using Azure HD insight, or you're simply just looking at the data in different forms and factors through power BI. I think it opens up a whole new set of possibilities you just couldn't do it before. On the second hand, it also helps you modernize your existing on-premise estate of Oracle. So we have the largest backs, the largest financial services customers, the largest government customers running the largest exit data footprint on premise. It helps you modernize that into the cloud and then, and use complimentary services from Azure. >> Got it. Chris, what's the support model look like for this new service? You know, who do I, whose throat do I choke? >> I was going to say, so you brought us back to when we had multiple vendors in the vendors we've all lived through it, right. Vendors pointed fingers at each other. So, keeping that in mind, what we've done is we have a collaborative plan with Microsoft in place. So building on the, the interconnect from 2019 we have that collaborative support model. So right in this new console that we've built you can log a ticket and immediately both sides will be aware of the context and what's going on so that we can resolve those problems and avoid the finger pruning of vendor at vendor. >> Okay, great. So if somebody pick up a broom and, and start sweeping and fix the problem, I love it. To both of you guys, maybe you could kind of riff a little bit on the future. I, I mean, we use this term super cloud, which is, you know, cross multiple clouds so you're doing that. And we envision, you know, this this wonderful globally distributed system where you're not even thinking about the underlying infrastructure. Are you considering partnering with other major cloud providers to offer similar services? Or are you going to go sort of deeper with, with Azure? What's your feeling on that? >> I think, you know, I think the the capability here that we've built isn't specific to Azure, for sure. I think there's absolutely possibility of, of, you know, working with other clouds in the future. I think, you know, we'll continue to sort of listen to our feedback from the, from our largest customers. You know, and if the market demands, you know, it's, it's, it's going to be, as I said, table stakes. And, you know, as I said earlier, and and I think It'll be in the best interest of all the cloud providers to just work together in the future. >> And, and Dave, to go back on the other half of your question, are we going to go deeper? We are going to be going deeper. So today we've gone far enough that like I said, metrics logs, those things are flowing. We're also in progress of looking at the rest of the portfolio in Azure and seeing which things can and should integrate more tightly with OCI. So as Karan said broader, but also deeper at the same time. >> Great, thank you. But my last question is, you know, we, again, we use this term super cloud to, to, to me anyway and us multi-cloud has largely been running, you know, on different clouds, it's, it's sort of a symptom, just kind of the way things shook out. And maybe this, maybe super cloud is what multi-cloud should be, but, but what do you think are the key ingredients that make multi-cloud real, lots of people are talking about multi-cloud what, what makes it tangible? >> I think, you know, to, to begin with, I think it's, it's, it's removing the complexity of learning new clouds, right? I think that's the biggest challenge that customers have is you've you've already picked one cloud, you've, you've, you've trained your, your, your employees, you've trained your developers and your application, you know, engineers and learning a new cloud, onboarding a new cloud is an extensive challenge and, and, you know, requires a lot of time and effort. And I think, I think what the other cloud providers can do is actually make sure that they provide these experiences that office gate all of the guts and all of the plumbing under the covers so that the customer doesn't have to learn new things. I think they have, they can focus on their business value which is actually running the app and running the database. I think they can sort of leave the infrastructure component to the cloud providers to actually have the right interoperability, the right APIs, et cetera. So I think the experience is going to be critical moving forward. >> Kris, anything you'd add to that? Bring us home if you would. >> The things I would add is back to observability and manageability. So today a lot of customers consider themselves multi-cloud if they're leveraging two clouds. What we are truly talking about is a multi-cloud workload where a compute node on cloud A is talking to a database on Oracle, things like that. So then you get into the observability of the stack so that you can monitor and react to how the things are going. So I think it has to go a, a hair higher in that these, these layers of observing the entire multi-cloud experiences in one place. >> That's great guys. Thanks so much for coming to The Cube and, and share. Congratulations on the progress. I, I love that we have you guys back and we can see how you're moving forward, collaborating, you know, customers, it's a win-win win so appreciate your time. >> Absolutely. >> Absolutely. >> All right. And thank you for watching. This is Dave Vellante for The Cube. We'll see you next time.

>>The cube presents HPE discover 2022 brought to you by HPE. >>Welcome back to the Cube's coverage. We're wrapping up day two, John furrier and Dave ante. We got some friends and colleagues, longtime friends, Crawford Del Pret is the president of IDC. Matt Eastwood is the senior vice president of infrastructure and cloud guys. Thanks for coming on spending time. Great to you guys. >>That's fun to do it. Awesome. >>Cravin I want to ask you, I, I think this correct me if I'm wrong, but this was your first physical directions as, as president. Is that true or did you do one in 2019? >>Uh, no, we did one in 20. We did, we did one in 20. I was president at the time and then, and then everything started, >>Well, how was directions this year? You must have been stoked to get back together. Yeah, >>It was great. I mean, it was actually pretty emotional, you know, it's, it's a community, right? I mean, we have a lot of customers that have been coming to that event for a long, long time and to stand up on the stage and look out and see people, you know, getting a little bit emotional and a lot of hugs and a lot of bringing people together. And this year in Boston, we were the first event really of any size that kind of came back. And when I kind of didn't see that coming in terms of how people, how ready people were to be together. Cause >>When did you did it April >>In Boston? Yeah, we did it March in March. Yeah, it was, it was, it was, it was a game day decision. I mean, we were, we had negotiated it, we were going back and forth and then I kind of made the call at the last minute, say, let's go and do it. And in Santa Clara, I felt like we were kind of opening up the crypt at the convention center. I mean, all the production people said, you know what? You guys were really the first event to be back. And attendance was really strong. You know, we, we, we got over a thousand. It was, it was really good. >>Good. It's always a fun when I was there. It was, it's a big deal. You guys prepare for it. Yeah. Some new faces up on the stage. Yeah. So, so Matt, um, you've been doing the circuit. I take it like, like all top analysts, super busy. Right. This is kind of end of the spring. I mean, I know it's summer, right. That's right. But, um, how do you look at, at discover relative some, some of the other events you've been at? >>So I think if you go back to what Crawford was just talking about our event in March, I mean, March was sort of the, the reopening and there was, I think people just felt so happy to be, to be back out there. You still get a little bit at, at these events. I mean, cuz for each, each company it's their first time back at it, but I think we're starting to get down what these events are gonna feel like going forward. Um, and it, I mean, there's good energy here. There's been a good attendance. I think the, the interest in getting back live and having face to face meetings is clearly strong. >>Yeah. I mean, this definitely shows that hybrids, the steady state, both events cloud. Yeah. Virtualization remotes. So what are you guys seeing with that hybrid mode? Just from a workforce, certainly people excited to get back together, but it's gonna continue. You're starting to see that digital piece. How is that impacting some of the, some of the customers you're tracking, who's winning and who's losing, coming out of the pandemic. What's the big picture look like? >>Yeah. I mean, if you, if you take a look at hybrid work, um, people are testing many, many, many different models. And I think as we move from a pandemic to an em, we're gonna have just waves and waves and waves of people needing that flexibility for a lot of different reasons, whether they have, uh, you know, preexisting conditions, whether they're just not comfortable, whether they have people who can't be vaccinated at home. So I think we're gonna be in this hybrid work for a long, long time. I do think though that we are gonna transition back into some kind of a normal, um, and I, and I think the big difference is that I think leaders back in the day, a long time ago, when people weren't coming into work, it was kind of like, oh, I know nothing's going on there. People aren't getting worked. And I think we're over that stage. Yeah. I think we're now into a stage where we know people can be productive. We know people can effectively work from home and now we're into the reason to be in the office. And the reason to be in the office is that collaboration, it's that mentoring it's that, you know, think about your 25 year old self. Do you wanna be staring at a windshield all day long and not kind of building those relationships? People want face to face, it's difficult. They want face >>To face and I would, and you guys had a great culture and it's a young culture. How are you handling it as an executive in terms of, is there a policy for hybrid or >>Yeah, so, so, so at IDC, what we did is we're in a pilot period and we've kind of said that the summertime is gonna be a pilot period and we've asked people, we're actually serving shocker, we're >>Serving, >>But we're, but we're, but, but we're actually asking people to work with their manager on what works for them. And then we'll come up with, you know, whether you are in, out of the office worker, which will be less than two days a hybrid worker, which will be three days or, uh, in, in the office, which is more than three days a week. And you know, we all know there's, there's, there's limitation, there's, there's, there's variability in that, but that's kind of what we're shooting for. And we'd like to be able to have that in place in the fall. >>Are you pretty much there? >>Yeah, I am. I, I am there three days a week. I I, Mondays and Fridays, unless, >>Because you got the CEO radius, right? Yeah. >><laugh>, <laugh> >>The same way I'm in the office, the smaller, smaller office. But so, uh, let's talk a little bit about the, the numbers we were chatting earlier, trying to squint through you guys are, you know, obviously the gold standard for what the market does, what happened in, you know, during the pandemic, what happened in 2021 and what do you expect to happen in, in 2022 in terms of it spending growth? >>Yeah. So this is, this is a crazy time, right? We've never seen this. You and I have a long history of, uh, of tracking this. So we saw in, in, in, in 2020, the market decelerated dramatically, um, the GDP went down to a negative like it always does in these cases, it was, you know, probably negative six in that, in that, in that kind of range for the first time, since I've been tracking it, which goes back over 30 years, tech didn't go negative tech went to about just under 3%. And then as we went to 2021, we saw, you know, everything kind of snap back, we saw tech go up to about 11% growth. And then of course we saw, you know, GDP come back to about a 4%, you know, ki kind of range growth. Now what's I think the story there is that companies and you saw this anecdotally everywhere companies leaned into tech, uh, company. >>You know, I think, you know, Matt, you have a great statistic that, you know, 80% of companies used COVID as their point to pivot into digital transformation, right. And to invest in a different way. And so what we saw now is that tech is now where I think companies need to focus. They need to invest in tech. They need to make people more productive with tech and it played out in the numbers now. So this year what's fascinating is we're looking at two Fastly different markets. We've got gasoline at $7 a gallon. We've got that affecting food prices. Uh, interesting fun fact recently it now costs over $1,000 to fill an 18 Wheeler. All right. Based on, I mean this just kind of can't continue. So you think about it, don't put the boat >>In the wall. Yeah. Yeah. >>Good, good, good, good luck. It's good. Yeah, exactly. <laugh> so a family has kind of this bag of money, right? And that bag of money goes up by maybe three, 4% every year, depending upon earnings. So that is sort of sloshing around. So if food and fuel and rent is taking up more gadgets and consumer tech are not, you know, you're gonna use that iPhone a little longer. You're gonna use that Android phone a little longer. You're gonna use that TV a little longer. So consumer tech is getting crushed, you know, really it's very, very, and you saw it immediately and ad spending, you've seen it in meta. You've seen it in Facebook. Consumer tech is doing very, very it's tough enterprise tech. We haven't been in the office for two and a half years. We haven't upgraded whether that be campus wifi, whether that be, uh, servers, whether that be, uh, commercial PCs, as much as we would have. So enterprise tech, we're seeing double digit order rates. We're seeing strong, strong demand. Um, we have combined that with a component shortage and you're seeing some enterprise companies with a quarter of backlog. I mean, that's, you know, really unheard at higher >>Prices, which >>Also, and therefore that drives that >>Drives. It shouldn't be that way. If there's a shortage of chips, it shouldn't be that way, >>But it is, but it is, but it is. And then you look at software and we saw this, you know, we've seen this in previous cycles, but we really saw it in the COVID downturn where, uh, in software, the stickiness of SaaS means that you just, you're not gonna take that stuff out. So the, the second half of last year we saw double digit rates in software surprise. We're seeing high single digit revenue growth in software now, so that we think is gonna sustain, which means that overall it demand. We expect to be between five and 6% this year. Okay, fine. We have a war going on. We have, you know, potentially, uh, a recession. We think if we do, it'll be with a lower case, R maybe you see a banded down to maybe 4% growth, but it's gonna grow this. >>Is it, is it both the structural change of the disruption of COVID plus the digital transformation yeah. Together? Or is it, >>I, I think you make a great point. Um, I, I, I think that we are entering a new era for tech. I think that, you know, Andrew's famous wall street journal oped 10 years ago, software is even world was absolutely correct. And now we're finding that software is, is eing into every nook and cranny people have to invest. They, they know disruptors are coming around every single corner. And if I'm not leaning into digital transformation, I'm dead. So >>The number of players in tech is, is growing, >>Cuz there's well, the number of players in tech number >>Industry's coming >>In. Yeah. The industry's coming in. So I think the interesting dynamic you're gonna see there is now we have high interest rates. Yeah. Which means that the price of funding these companies and buying them and putting data on is gonna get higher and higher, which means that I think you could, you could see another wave of consolidation. Mm-hmm <affirmative> because tech large install based tech companies are saying, oh, you know what? I like that now >>4 0 9 S are being reset too. That's another point. >>Yeah. I mean, so if you think about this, this transformation, right. So it's all about apps, absent data and differentiating and absent data. What the, the big winner the last couple years was cloud. And I would just say that if this is the first potential recession that we're talking about, where the cloud service providers. So I think a cloud as an operating model, not necessarily a destination, but for these cloud service providers, they've actually never experienced a slowdown. So how, and, and if you think about the numbers, 30% of, of the typical it budget is now quote, unquote cloud and 30% of all expenditures are it related. So there's a lot of exposure there. And I think you're gonna see a lot of, a lot of focus on how we can rationalize some of those investments. >>Well, that's a great point. I want to just double click on that. So yeah, the cloud did well during the pandemic. We saw that with SAS, have you guys tracked like the Tams of what got pulled forward? So the bit, a big discussion about something that pulled forward because of the pandemic, um, like zoom, for instance, obviously everyone's using zoom. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Was there fake Tams? There was one, uh, couple analysts who were pointing out that some companies were hot during the pandemic will go away that that Tam doesn't really exist, but there's some that got pulled forward early. That's where the growth is. So is there a, is there a line between the, I call fake Tam or pulled forward TA that was only for the pandemic situationally, um, devices might be like virtual event, virtual event. Software was one, I know Hoppin got laid a lot of layoffs. And so that was kind of gone coming, coming and going. And you got SAS which got pulled forward. Yep. And it's not going away, but it's >>Sustaining. Yeah. Yeah. But it's, but, but it's sustaining, um, you know, I definitely think there was a, there was a lot of spending that absolutely got pulled forward. And I think it's really about CEO's ability to control expectations and to kind of message what it, what it looks like. Um, you know, I think I look, I, I, I think virtual event platforms probably have a role. I think you can, you can definitely, you know, raise your margins in the event, business, significantly using those platforms. There's a role for them. But if you were out there thinking that this thing was gonna continue, then you know, that that was unrealistic, you know, Dave, to, to your point on devices, I'm not necessarily, you know. Sure. I think, I think we definitely got ahead of our expectations and things like consumer PCs, those things will go back to historical growth >>Rates. Yeah. I mean, you got the install base is pretty young right now, but I think the one way to look at it too, is there was some technical debt brought in because people didn't necessarily expect that we'd be moving to a permanent hybrid state two years ago. So now we have to actually invest on both. We have to make, create a little bit more permanency around the hybrid world. And then also like Crawford's talking about the permanency of, of having an office and having people work in, in multiple modes. Yeah. It actually requires investment in both the office. And >>Also, so you're saying operationally, you gotta run the company and do the digital transformation to level up the hybrid. >>Yeah. Yeah. Just the way people work. Right. So, so, you know, you basically have to, I mean, even for like us internally, Crawford was saying, we're experimenting with what works for us. My team before the pandemic was like one third virtual. Now it's two third virtual, which means that all of our internal meetings are gonna be on, on teams or zoom. Right. Yeah. They're not gonna necessarily be, Hey, just coming to the office today, cuz two thirds of people aren't in the Boston area. >>Right. Matt, you said if you see cloud as an operating model, not necessarily a place. I remember when you were out, I was in the, on the, on the, on the zoom when, when first met Adam Celski yeah. Um, he said, you were asking him about, you know, the, the on-prem guys and he's like, nah, it's not cloud. And he kind of was very dismissive of it. Yeah. Yeah. I wanna get your take on, you know, what we're seeing with as Azure service GreenLake, apex, Cisco's got their version. IBM. Fewer is doing it. Is that cloud. >>I think if it's, I, I don't think all of it is by default. I think it is. If I actually think what HPE is doing is cloud, because it's really about how you present the services and how you allow customers to engage with the platform. So they're actually creating a cloud model. I think a lot of people get lost in the transition from, you know, CapEx to OPEX and the financing element of this. But the reality is what HPE is doing and they're sort of setting the standard. I think for the industry here is actually setting up what I would consider a cloud model. >>Well, in the early days of, of GreenLake, for sure it was more of a financial, you >>Know, it was kind of bespoke, right. But now you've got 70 services. And so you can, you can build that out. But >>You know, we were talking to Keith Townsend right after the keynote and we were sort of UN unpacking it a little bit. And I, I asked the question, you know, if you, if you had to pin this in terms of AWS's maturity, where are we? And the consensus was 2014 console filling, is that fair or unfair? >>Oh, that's a good question. I mean, um, I think it's, well, clouds come a long way, right? So it'd be, I, I, I think 20, fourteen's probably a little bit too far back because >>You have more modern tools I Kubernetes is. Yeah. >>And, but you also have, I would say the market still getting to a point of, of, of readiness and in terms of buying this way. So if you think about the HP's kind of strategy around edge, the core platform as a, as a service, you know, we're all big believers in edge and the apps follow the data and the data's being created in new locations and you gotta put the infrastructure there. And for an end user, there's a lot of risk there because they don't know how to actually plan for capacity at the edge. So they're gonna look to offload that, but this is a long term play to actually, uh, build out and deploy at the edge. It's not gonna happen tomorrow. It's a five, 10 year play. >>Yeah. I mean, I like the operating model. I'd agree with you, Matt, that if it's, if it's cloud operations, DevSecOps and all that, all that jazz it's cloud it's cloud operating and, and, and public cloud is a public cloud hyperscaler on premise. And the storage folks were presented. That's a single pane of glass. That's old school concepts, but cloud based. Yep. Shipping hardwares, auto figures. Yeah. That's the kind of consumption they're going for now. I like it. Then I, then they got the partner led thing is the partner piece. How do you guys see that? Because if I'm a partner, there's two things, wait a minute, am I at bottleneck to the direct self-service? Or is that an enabler to get more cash, to make more money? If I'm a partner. Cause you see what Essentia's doing with what they do with Amazon and Deloitte and et C. Yeah. You know, it's interesting, right? Like they've a channel partner, I'm making more cash. >>Yeah. I mean, well, and those channel partners are all in transition too. They're trying to yeah. Right. Figure out. Right, right. Are they, you know, what are their managed services gonna look like? You know, what kind of applications are they gonna stand up? They're they're not gonna just be >>Reselling, bought a big house in a boat. The box is not selling. I wanna ask you guys about growth because you know, the big three cloud, big four growing pick a number, I dunno, 30, 35% revenue big. And like you said, it's 30% of the business now. I think Dell's growing double digits. I don't know how much of that is sustainable. A lot of that is PCs, but still strong growth. Yep. I think Cisco has promised 9% >>In, in that. Right, right. >>About that. Something like that. I think IBM Arvin is at 6%. Yep. And I think HPE has said, Hey, we're gonna do three to 4%. Right. Which is so really sort of lagging and which I think a lot of people in wall street is like, okay, well that's not necessarily so compelling. Right. What does HPE have to do to double that growth? Or even triple that growth. >>Yeah. So they're gonna need, so, so obviously you're right. I mean, being able to show growth is Tanem out to this company getting, you know, more attention, more heat from, from investors. I think that they're rightly pointing to the triple digit growth that they've seen on green lake. I think if you look at the trailing, you know, 12 month bookings, you got over, you know, 7 billion, which means that in a year, you're gonna have a significant portion of the company is as a service. And you're gonna see that revenue that's rat being, you know, recognized over a series of months. So I think that this is sort of the classic SAS trough that we've seen applied to an infrastructure company where you're basically have to kind of be in the desert for a long time. But if they can, I think the most important number for HPE right now is that GreenLake booking snow. >>And if you look at that number and you see that number, you know, rapidly come down, which it hasn't, I mean off a very large number, you're still in triple digits. They will ultimately start to show revenue growth, um, in the business. And I think the one thing people are missing about HPE is there aren't, there are a lot of companies that want to build a platform, but they're small and nobody cares. And nobody let's say they throw a party and nobody comes. HP has such a significant installed base that if they do build a platform, they can attract partners to that platform. What I mean by that is partners that deliver services on GreenLake that they're not delivering. They have the girth to really start to change an industry and change the way stuff is being built. And that's the be they're making. And frankly, they are showing progress in that direction. >>So I buy that. But the one thing that concerns me is they kind of hide the ball on services. Right. And I, and I worry about that is like, is this a services kind of just, you know, same wine, new bottle or, >>Or, yeah. So, so I, I, I would argue that it's not about hiding the ball. It's about eliminating confusion of the marketplace. This is the company that bought EDS only to spin it off <laugh>. Okay. And so you don't wanna have a situation where you're getting back into services. >>Yeah. They're the only one >>They're product, not the only ones who does, I mean, look at the way IBM used to count and still >>I get it. I get it. But I think it's, it's really about clarity of mission. Well, I point next they are in the Ts business, absolutely. Point of it. It's important prop >>Drive for them at the top. Right. The global 50 say there's still a lot of uniqueness in what they want to buy. So there's definitely a lot of bespoke kind of delivery. That's still happening there. The real promise here is when you get into the global 2000 and yeah. And can start them to getting them to consume very standardized offers. And then the margins are, are healthy >>And they got they're what? Below 30, 33, 30 3%. I think 34% last quarter gross margin. Yeah. That that's solid. Just compare that with Dell is, I don't know. They're happy with 20, 21% of correct. You get that, which is, you know, I I'll come back. Go ahead. I want, I wanna ask >>Guys. No, I wanna, I wanna just, he said one thing I like, which was, I think he nailed it. They have such, um, big install base. They have a great channel. They know how to use it. Right. That's a real asset. Yeah. And Microsoft, I remember when their stock was trading at 26 when Baltimore was CEO. Yep. What they did with no, they had office and windows, so a little bit different. Yep. But similar strategy, leverage our install base, bring something up to them. That's what you're kind of connecting the >>Absolutely. You have this velocity, uh, machine with a significant girth that you can now move to a new model. They move that to a new model. To Matt's point. They lead the industry, they change the way large swath the customers buy and you will see it in steady revenue growth over time. Okay. So I just in that, well, >>So your point is the focus and there the right it's the right focus. And I would agree what's >>What's the other move. What's their other move, >>The problem. Triple digit booking growth off a number that gets bigger >>Inspired. Okay. >>Whats what's the scoreboard. Okay. Now they're go at the growth. That's the scoreboard. What are the signals? Are you looking at on the scoreboard Crawford and Matt in terms of success? What are the benchmarks? Is it ecosystem growth, number of services, triple growth. Yeah. What's the, what are some of the metrics that you guys are gonna be watching and we should be watching? >>Yeah. I mean, I dunno if >>You wanna jump in, I mean, I think ecosystem's really critical. Yeah. You want to, you want to have well and, and you need to sell both ways like HPE needs to be selling their technology on other cloud providers and vice versa. You need to have the VMs of the world on, you know, offering services on your platform and, and kind of capturing some, some motion off that. I think that's pretty critical. The channel definitely. I mean, you have to help and what you're gonna see happen there is there will be channel partners that succeed in transforming and succeeding and there'll be a lot that go away and that some, some of that's, uh, generational there'll be people that just kind of age outta the system and, and just go home. >>Yeah. Yeah. So I would argue it's, it's, it's, it's gonna be, uh, bookings growth rate. It's gonna be retention rate of the, of, of, of the customers, uh, that they have. And then it's gonna be that, that, um, you know, ultimately you're gonna see revenue, um, growth, and which is that revenue growth is gonna have to be correlated to the booking's growth for green lake cross. >>What's the Achilles heel on, on HPE. If you had to do the SWAT, what's the, what's the w for HPE that they really need to pay >>Attention to. I mean, they, they need to continue their relentless focus on cost, particularly in the, in the core compute, you know, segment they need to be, they need to be able to be as cost effective as possible while the higher profit dollars associated with GreenLake and other services come in and then increase the overall operating margin and gross margin >>Picture for the, I mean, I think the biggest thing is they just have, they have to continue the motion that they've been on. Right. And they've been consistent about that. Mm-hmm, <affirmative> what you see where others have, have kind of slipped up is when you go to, to customers and you present the, the OPEX as a service and the traditional CapEx side by side, and the customers put in this position of trying to detangle what's in that OPEX service, you don't wanna do that obviously. And, and HP has not done that, but we've seen others kind of slip up. And, but >>A lot of companies still wanna buy CapEx. Right. Absolutely liquid. And, and I think, >>But you shouldn't do a, you shouldn't do that bake off by putting those two offers out. You should basically ascertain what they want to do. >>What's kind of what Dell does. Right. Hey, how, what do you want? We got this, we got >>This on one hand, we got this, the, we got that, right. Uh, the two hand sales rep, no, this CapEx. Thing's interesting. And if you're Amazon and Azure and, and GCP, what are they thinking right now? Cause remember what, four years ago outpost was launched, which essentially hardware. Yeah. This is cloud operating model. Yep. Yeah. They're essentially bringing outpost. This is what they got basically is Amazon and Azure, like, is this ABL on the radar for them? How would you, what, what are they thinking in your mind if we're on, if we're in their office, in their brain trust, are they laughing? Are they like saying, oh, they're scared. Is this real threat >>Opportunity? I, I, I mean, I wouldn't say they're laughing at all. I, I would say they're probably discounting a little bit and saying, okay, fine. You know, that's a strategy that a traditional hardware company is moving to. But I think if you look underneath the covers, you know, two years ago it was, you know, pretty basic stuff they were offering. But now when you start getting into some, you know, HPC is a service, you start getting into data fabric, you start getting into some of the more, um, sophisticated services that they're offering. And, and I think what's interesting about HP. What my, my take is that they're not gonna go after the 250 services the Amazon's offering, they're gonna basically have a portfolio of services that really focus on the core use cases of their infrastructure set. And, and I think one of the danger things, one, one of the, one of the red flags would be, if they start going way up the stack and wanting to offer the entire application stack, that would be like a big flashing warning sign, cuz it's not their sweet spot. It's not, not what they have. >>So machine learning, machine learning and quantum, okay. One you can argue might be up the stack machine learning quantum should be in their wheelhouse. >>I would argue machine learning is not up the stack because what they would focus on is inference. They'd focus on learning. If they came out and said, machine learning all the way up to the, you know, what a, what, what a drug discovery company needs to do. >>So they're bringing it down. >>Yeah. Yeah. Well, no, I think they're focusing on that middle layer, right? That, that, that data layer. And I think that helping companies manage their data make more sense outta their data structure, their data that's core to what they wanna do. >>I, I feel as though what they're doing now is table stakes. Honestly, I do. I do feel like, okay, Hey finally, you know, I say the same thing about apex, you >>Know, we finally got, >>It's like, okay guys, the >>Party. Great. Welcome to the, >>But the one thing I would just say about, about AWS and the other big clouds is whether they might be a little dismissive of what's truly gonna happen at the edge. I think the traditional OEMs that are transforming are really betting on that edge, being a huge play and a huge differentiator for them where the public cloud obviously have their own bets there. But I think they were pretty dismissive initially about how big that went. >>I don't, and I don't think anybody's really figured out the edge yet. >>Well, that's an, it's a battleground. That's what he's saying. I think you're >>Saying, but on the ecosystem, I wanna say up the stack, I think it's the ecosystem. That's gotta fill that out. You gotta see more governance tools and catalogs and AI tools and, and >>It immediately goes more, it goes more vertical when you go edge, you're gonna have different conversations and >>They're >>Lacking. Yeah. And they, but they're in there though. They're in the verticals. HP's in the, yeah, >>For sure. But they gotta build out an ego. Like you walk around here, the data, the number of data companies here. I mean, Starburst is here. I'm actually impressed that Starburst is here. Cause I think they're a forward thinking company. I wanna see that times a hundred. Right. I mean, that's >>You see HP's in all the verticals. That's I think the point here, >>So they should be able to attract that ecosystem and build that, that flywheel that's the, that's the hallmark of a cloud that marketplace. >>Yeah, it is. But I think there's a, again, I go back to, they really gotta stay focused on that infrastructure and data management. Yeah. >>But they'll be focused on that, but, but their ecosystem, >>Their ecosystem will then take it up from there. And I think that's the next stage >>And that ecosystem's gotta include OT players and communications technologies players as well. Right. Because that stuff gets kind of sucked up in that, in that edge play. Do >>You feel like HPE has a, has a leg up on that or like a little, a little bit of a lead or is it pretty much, you know, even raced right now? >>I think they've, I think the big infrastructure companies have all had OEM businesses and they've all played there. It's it's, it's also helping those OT players actually convert their own needs into more of a software play and, and not so much of >>Physical. You've been, you've been following and you guys both have been following HP and HPE for years. They've been on the edge for a long time. I've been focused on this edge. Yeah. Now they might not have the product traction that's right. Or they might not develop as fast, but industrial OT and IOT they've been talking about it, focused on it. I think Amazon was mostly like, okay, we gotta get to the edge and like the enterprise. And, and I think HP's got a leg up in my opinion on that. Well, I question is can they execute? >>Yeah. I mean, PTC was here years ago on stage talking >>About, but I mean, you think about, if you think about the edge, right. I mean, I would argue one of the best acquisitions this company ever did was Aruba. Right. I mean, it basically changed the whole conversation of the edge changed the whole conversation. >>If >>Became GreenLake, it was GreenLake. >>Well, it became a big department. They gave a big, but, but, but I mean, you know, I mean they, they, they went after going selling edge line servers and frankly it's very difficult to gain traction there. Yeah. Aruba, huge area. And I think the March announcement was when they brought Aruba management into. Yeah. Yeah. >>Totally. >>Last question. Love >>That. >>What are you guys saying about the, the Broadcom VMware acquisition? What's the, what are the implications for the ecosystem for companies like HPE and just generally for the it business? >>Yeah. So >>You start. Yeah, sure. I'll start, I'll start there. So look, you know, we've, you know, spent some time, uh, going through it spent some time, you know, speaking, uh, to the, to the, to the folks involved and, and, and I gotta tell you, I think this is a really interesting moment for Broadcom. This is Broadcom's opportunity to basically build a different kind of a conversation with developers to, uh, try to invest in. I mean, just for perspective, right? These numbers may not be exact. And I know a dollar is not a dollar, but in 2001, anybody, remember what HP paid for? Compact >>8,000,000,020, >>So 25 billion, 25 billion. Wow. VMware just got sold for 61 billion. Wow. Okay. Unbill dollars. Okay. That gives you a perspective. No, again, I know a dollar is not a dollar 2000. >>It's still big numbers, >>2022. So having said that, if you just did it to, to, to basically build your DCF model and say, okay, over this amount of time, I'll pay you this. And I'll take the money out of this period of time, which is what people have criticized them for. I think that's a little shortsighted. I, yeah, I think this is Broadcom's opportunity to invest in that product and really try to figure out how to get a seat at the table in software and pivot their company to enterprise software in a different way. They have to prove that they're willing to do that. And then frankly, that they can develop the skills to do that over time. But I do believe this is a, a different, this is a pivot point. This is not >>CA this is not CA >>It's not CA >>In my, in my mind, it can't be CA they would, they would destroy too much. Now you and I, Dave had some, had some conversations on Twitter. I, I don't think it's the step up to them sort of thinking differently about semiconductor, dying, doing some custom semi I, I don't think that's. Yeah. I agree with that. Yeah. I think I, I think this is really about, I got two aspiration for them pivoting the company. They could >>Justify the >>Price to the, getting a seat at the adults table in software is, >>Well, if, if Broadcom has been squeezing their supplies, we all hear the scutle butt. Yeah. If they're squeezing, they can use VMware to justify the prices. Yeah. Maybe use that hostage. And that installed base. That's kind of Mike conspiracy. >>I think they've told us what they're gonna do. >><laugh> I do. >>Maybe it's not like C what's your conspiracy theory like Symantec, but what >>Do you think? Well, I mean, there's still, I mean, so VMware there's really nobody that can do all the things that VMware does say. So really impossible for an enterprise to just rip 'em out. But obviously you can, you can sour people's taste and you can very much influence the direction they head in with the collection of, of providers. One thing, interesting thing here is, was the 37% of VMware's revenues sold through Dell. So there's, there's lots of dependencies. It's not, it's not as simple as I think John, you you're right. You can't just pull the CA playbook out and rerun it here. This is a lot more complex. Yeah. It's a lot more volume of, of, of distribution, but a fair amount of VMware's install >>Base Dell's influence is still there basically >>Is in the mid-market. It's not, it's not something that they're gonna touch directly. >>You think about what VMware did. I mean, they kept adding new businesses, buying new businesses. I mean, is security business gonna stay >>Networking security, I think are interesting. >>Same >>Customers >>Over and over. Haven't done anything. VMware has the same customers. What new >>Customers. So imagine simplifying VMware. Right, right. Becomes a different equation. It's really interesting. And to your point, yeah. I mean, I think Broadcom is, I mean, Tom Crouse knows how to run a business. >>Yeah. He knows how to run a business. He's gonna, I, I think it's gonna be, you know, it's gonna be an efficient business. It's gonna be a well run business, but I think it's a pivot point for >>Broadcom. It's amazing to me, Broadcom sells to HPE. They sell it to Dell and they've got a market cap. That's 10 X, you know? Yes. Yeah. All we gotta go guys. Awesome. Great conversation guys. >>A lot. Thanks for having us on. >>Okay. Listen, uh, day two is a, is a wrap. We'll be here tomorrow, all day. Dave ante, John furrier, Lisa Martin, Lisa. Hope you're feeling okay. We'll see you tomorrow. Thanks for watching the cube, your leader in enterprise tech, live coverage.

(upbeat music) >> Welcome everybody to this CUBE Conversation. My name is Dave Vellante, and we're here to talk about Object storage and the momentum in the space. And what Dell Technologies is doing to compete in this market, I'm joined today by Anahad Dhillon, who's the Product Manager for Dell, EMC's ECS, and new ObjectScale products. Anahad, welcome to theCUBE, good to see you. >> Thank you so much Dave. We appreciate you having me and Dell (indistinct), thanks. >> Its always a pleasure to have you guys on, we dig into the products, talk about the trends, talk about what customers are doing. Anahad before the Cloud, Object was this kind of niche we seen. And you had simple get, put, it was a low cost bit bucket essentially, but that's changing. Tell us some of the trends in the Object storage market that you're observing, and how Dell Technology sees this space evolving in the future please. >> Absolutely, and you hit it right on, right? Historically, Object storage was considered this cheap and deep place, right? Customers would use this for their backup data, archive data, so cheap and deep, no longer the case, right? As you pointed out, the ObjectSpace is now maturing. It's a mature market and we're seeing out there customers using Object or their primary data so, for their business critical data. So we're seeing big data analytics that we use cases. So it's no longer just cheap and deep, now your primary workloads and business critical workloads being put on with an object storage now. >> Yeah, I mean. >> And. >> Go ahead please. >> Yeah, I was going to say, there's not only the extend of the workload being put in, we'll also see changes in how Object storage is being deployed. So now we're seeing a tighter integration with new depth models where Object storage or any storage in general is being deployed. Our applications are being (indistinct), right? So customers now want Object storage or storage in general being orchestrated like they would orchestrate their customer applications. Those are the few key trends that we're seeing out there today. >> So I want to dig into this a little bit with you 'cause you're right. It used to be, it was cheap and deep, it was slow and it required sometimes application changes to accommodate. So you mentioned a few of the trends, Devs, everybody's trying to inject AI into their applications, the world has gone software defined. What are you doing to respond to all these changes in these trends? >> Absolutely, yeah. So we've been making tweaks to our object offering, the ECS, Elastic Cloud Storage for a while. We started off tweaking the software itself, optimizing it for performance use cases. In 2020, early 2020, we actually introduced SSDs to our notes. So customers were able to go in, leverage these SSD's for metadata caching improving their performance quite a bit. We use these SSDs for metadata caching. So the impact on the performance improvement was focused on smaller reads and writes. What we did now is a game changer. We actually went ahead later in 2020, introduced an all flash appliance. So now, EXF900 and ECS all flash appliance, it's all NVME based. So it's NVME SSDs and we leveraged NVME over fabric xx for the back end. So we did it the right way did. We didn't just go in and qualified an SSD based server and ran object storage on it, we invested time and effort into supporting NVME fabric. So we could give you that performance at scale, right? Object is known for scale. We're not talking 10, 12 nodes here, we're talking hundreds of nodes. And to provide you that kind of performance, we went to ahead. Now you've got an NVME based offering EXF900 that you can deploy with confidence, run your primary workloads that require high throughput and low latency. We also come November 5th, are releasing our next gen SDS offering, right? This takes the Troven ECS code that our customers are familiar with that provides the resiliency and the security that you guys expect from Dell. We're re platforming it to run on Kubernetes and be orchestrated by Kubernetes. This is what we announced that VMware 2021. If you guys haven't seen that, is going to go on-demand for VMware 2021, search for ObjectScale and you get a quick demo on that. With ObjectScale now, customers can quickly deploy enterprise grade Object storage on their existing environment, their existing infrastructure, things like VMware, infrastructure like VMware and infrastructure like OpenShift. I'll give you an example. So if you were in a VMware shop that you've got vSphere clusters in your data center, with ObjectScale, you'll be able to quickly deploy your Object enterprise grid Object offering from within vSphere. Or if you are an OpenShift customer, right? If you've got OpenShift deployed in your data center and your Red Hat shop, you could easily go in, use that same infrastructure that your applications are running on, deploy ObjectScale on top of your OpenShift infrastructure and make available Object storage to your customers. So you've got the enterprise grade ECS appliance or your high throughput, low latency use cases at scale, and you've got this software defined ObjectScale, which can deploy on your existing infrastructure, whether that's VMware or Red Hat OpenShift. >> Okay, I got a lot of follow up questions, but let me just go back to one of the earlier things you said. So Object was kind of cheap, deep and slow, but scaled. And so, your step one was metadata caching. Now of course, my understanding is with Object, the metadata and the data within the object. So, maybe you separated that and made it high performance, but now you've taken the next step to bring in NVME infrastructure to really blow away all the old sort of scuzzy latency and all that stuff. Maybe you can just educate us a little bit on that if you don't mind. >> Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that was exactly the stepped approach that we took. Even though metadata is tightly integrated in Object world, in order to read the actual data, you still got to get to the metadata first, right? So we would cache the metadata into SSDs reducing that lookup that happens for that metadata, right? And that's why it gave you the performance benefit. But because it was just tied to metadata look-ups, the performance for larger objects stayed the same because the actual data read was still happening from the hard drives, right? With the new EXF900 which is all NVME based, we've optimized the our ECS Object code leveraging VME, data sitting on NVME drives, the internet connectivity, the communication is NVME over fabric, so it's through and through NVME. Now we're talking milliseconds and latency and thousands and thousands of transactions per second. >> Got it, okay. So this is really an inflection point for Objects. So these are pretty interesting times at Dell, you got the cloud expanding on prem, your company is building cloud-like capabilities to connect on-prem to the cloud across cloud, you're going out to the edge. As it pertains to Object storage though, it sounds like you're taking a sort of a two product approach to your strategy. Why is that, and can you talk about the go-to market strategy in that regard? >> Absolutely, and yeah, good observation there. So yes and no, so we continued to invest in ECS. ECS continues to stay a product of choice when customer wants that traditional appliance deployment model. But this is a single hand to shape model where you're everything from your hardware to your software the object solution software is all provided by Dell. ECS continues to be the product where customers are looking for that high performance, fine tune appliance use case. ObjectScale comes into play when the needs are software defined. When you need to deploy the storage solution on top of the same infrastructure that your applications are run, right? So yes, in the short-term, in the interim, it's a two product approach of both products taking a very distinct use case. However, in the long-term, we're merging the two quote streams. So in the long-term, if you're an ECS customer and you're running ECS, you will have an in-place data upgrade to ObjectScale. So we're not talking about no forklift upgrades, we're not talking about you're adding additional servers and do a data migration, it's a code upgrade. And then I'll give you an example, today on ECS, we're at code variation 3.6, right? So if you're a customer running ECS, ECS 3.X in the future, and so we've got a roadmap where 3.7 is coming out later on this year. So from 3.X, customers will upgrade the code data in place. Let's call it 4.0, right? And that brings them up to ObjectScale. So there's no nodes left behind, there's an in-place code upgrade from ECS to the ObjectScale merging the two code streams and the long-term, single code, short-term, two products for both solving the very distinct users. >> Okay, let me follow up, put on my customer hat. And I'm hearing that you can tell us with confidence that irrespective of whether a customer invested ECS or ObjectScale, you're not going to put me into a dead-end. Every customer is going to have a path forward as long as their ECS code is up-to-date, is that correct? >> Absolutely, exactly, and very well put, yes. No nodes left behind, investment protection, whether you've got ECS today, or you want to invest into ECS or ObjectScale in the future, correct. >> Talk a little bit more about ObjectScale. I'm interested in kind of what's new there, what's special about this product, is there unique functionality that you're adding to the product? What differentiates it from other Object stores? >> Absolutely, my pleasure. Yeah, so I'll start by reiterating that ObjectScale it's built on that Troven ECS code, right? It's the enterprise grid, reliability and security that our customers expect from Dell EMC, right? Now we're re platforming ECS who allow ObjectScale to be Kubernetes native, right? So we're leveraging that microservices-based architecture, leveraging that native orchestration capabilities of Kubernetes, things like resource isolation or seamless (indistinct), I'm sorry, load balancing and things like that, right? So the in-built native capabilities of Kubernetes. ObjectScale is also build with scale in mind, right? So it delivers limitless scale. So you could start with terabytes and then go up to petabytes and beyond. So unlike other file system-based Object offerings, ObjectScale software would have a limit on your number of object stores, number of buckets, number of objects you store, it's limitless. As long as you can provide the hardware resources under the covers, the software itself is limitless. It allows our customers to start small, so you could start as small as three node and grow their environment as your business grows, right? Hundreds of notes. With ObjectScale, you can deploy workloads at public clouds like scale, but with the reliability and control of a private cloud data, right? So, it's then your own data center. And ObjectScale is S3 compliant, right? So while delivering the enterprise features like global replication, native multi-tenancy, fueling everything from Dev Test Sandbox to globally distributed data, right? So you've got in-built ObjectScale replication that allows you to place your data anywhere you got ObjectScale (indistinct). From edge to core to data center. >> Okay, so it fits into the Kubernetes world. I call it Kubernetes compatible. The key there is automation, because that's the whole point of containers is, right? It allows you to deploy as many apps as you need to, wherever you need to in as many instances and then do rolling updates, have the same security, same API, all that level of consistency. So that's really important. That's how modern apps are being developed. We're in a new age year. It's no longer about the machines, it's about infrastructure as code. So once ObjectScale is generally available which I think is soon, I think it's this year, What should customers do, what's their next step? >> Absolutely, yeah, it's coming out November 2nd. Reach out to your Dell representatives, right? Get an in-depth demo on ObjectScale. Better yet, you get a POC, right? Get a proof of concept, have it set up in your data center and play with it. You can also download the free full featured community edition. We're going to have a community edition that's free up to 30 terabytes of usage, it's full featured. Download that, play with it. If you like it, you can upgrade that free community edition, will license paid version. >> And you said that's full featured. You're not neutering the community edition? >> Exactly, absolutely, it's full featured. >> Nice, that's a great strategy. >> We're confident, we're confident in what we're delivering, and we want you guys to play with it without having your money tied up. >> Nice, I mean, that's the model today. Gone are the days where you got to get new customers in a headlock to get them to, they want to try before they buy. So that's a great little feature. Anahad, thanks so much for joining us on theCUBE. Sounds like it's been a very busy year and it's going to continue to be so. Look forward to see what's coming out with ECS and ObjectScale and seeing those two worlds come together, thank you. >> Yeah, absolutely, it was a pleasure. Thank you so much. >> All right, and thank you for watching this CUBE Conversation. This is Dave Vellante, we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

>>let's bring in jerry Chen from Greylock is he here? Let's bring him in there? He is. >>Hey john good to see you. >>Hey congratulations on an amazing talk and thesis on the castles on the cloud. Thanks for coming on. >>All right, well thanks for reading it. Um, always were being put a piece of work out out of the ether, not sure what the responses, but it seemed to resonate with a bunch of developers, founders, investors and folks like yourself. So smart people seem to gravitate to us. So thank you very much. >>Well, one of the benefits of doing the Cube for 11 years, Jerry's, we have videotape of many, many people talking about what the future will hold. You kind of are on this early, it wasn't called castles in the cloud, but you were all, I was, we had many conversations were kind of connecting the dots in real time, but you've been on this for a while it's great to see the work. I really think you nailed this. I think you're absolutely on point here. So let's get into it. What is castles in the cloud? New research come out from Greylock that you spearheaded? It's collaborative effort, but you've got data behind it. Give a quick overview of what is castle the cloud, The new modes of competitive advantage for companies. >>Yeah, it's as a group project that our team put together but basically john the question is how do you win in the cloud? Remember the conversation we had eight years ago when amazon re event was holy cow like can you compete with them? Like is it a winner? Take all, Winner take most. And if it is winner take most. Where are the white spaces for some starts to to emerge clearly the past eight years in the cloud this journey we've seen big companies data breaks, snowflakes, elastic mongo data robot. And so um they spotted the question is you know, why are the castles in the cloud? The big three cloud providers amazon google and as you're winning, you know, what advantage do they have? And then given their modes of scale network effects, how can you as a startup win? And so look, there are 500 plus services between all three cloud vendors but there are like 500 plus um startups, competing gets a cloud vendors and there's like almost 100 unicorn of private companies competing successfully against the cloud vendors, including public companies. So like Alaska Mongo snowflake, No data breaks. Not public yet. Hashtag or not public yet. These are some examples of the names that I think are winning and watch this space because you see more of these guys storm the castle if you will. >>Yeah. And you know one of the things that's a funny metaphor because it has many different implications. One, as we talk about security, the perimeter of the gates, the most being on land, but now you're in the cloud, you have also different security paradigm. You have a different um new kinds of services that are coming on board faster than ever before, not just from the cloud players, but from companies contributing into the ecosystem. So the combination of the big three making the market the main markets, you, I think you call it 31 markets that we know of that probably maybe more. And then you have this notion of sub market, which means that there's like, we used to call it white space back in the day. Remember how many whites? Where's the white space? I mean if you're in the cloud there's like a zillion white spaces. So talk about this sub market dynamic between markets and that are being enabled by the cloud players and how these sub markets play into it. >>Sure. So first, the first problem was what we did, we downloaded all the services for the big three clowns. Right. And you know what as recalls a database or database service, like a document dB and amazon is like Cosmo, dB and Azure. So first thing first is we had to like look at all three cloud providers and you? Re categorize all the services almost 500 Apples, Apples, Apples, # one. Number two, is you look at all these markets or sub markets and said, okay, how can we cluster these services into things that you know, you and I can rock. Right, That's what amazon as well. And google think about it is very different. And the beauty of the cloud is this kind of fat long tail of services for developers. So instead of like oracle as a single database for all your needs, they're like 20 or 30 different databases from time series um, analytics, databases we're talking rocks at later today, right? Um uh, document databases like mongo search database like elastic and so what happens is there's not one giant market like databases, there's a database market and 30 40 sub markets that serve the needs developers. So the Great News is cloud has reduced the cost and create something that new for developers. Um also the good uses for a start up, you can find plenty of white speech solving a pain point very specific to a different type of problem >>and you can sequence up the power law to this. I love the power of a metaphor, you know, used to be a very thin neck note no torso and then a long tail. But now as you're pointing out this expansion of the fat tail of services but also this big tam's and markets available at the top of the power law where you see coming like snowflake essentially take on the data warehousing market by basically sitting on amazon and re factoring with new services and then getting a flywheel completely changing the economic unit economics completely changing the consumption model completely changing the value proposition literally >>you snowflake has created like storm create a hole that mode or that castle wall against red shift. Then companies like rock set real time analytics, It's Russian right behind snowflakes saying, hey snowflake is great for data warehouse, but it's not fast enough for real time analytics. Let me give you something new to your, your parallel argument. Even the big optics snowflake have created kind of a wake behind them that created even more white space for Gaza rock set. So that's exciting for guys like media. >>And then also as we were talking about our last episode two or quarter two of our showcase, um, from a VC came on, it's like the old shelf where you didn't know if a company's successful until they had to return the inventory now with cloud. If you're not successful, you know it right away. It's like, it's like there's no debate. Like, I mean you're either winning or not. This is like that's so instrumented. So a company can have a good better mousetrap and win and fill the white space and then move up. >>It goes both ways. The cloud vendor, the big three amazon google and Azure for sure. They instrument their own class. They know john which ecosystem partners doing well in which ecosystems doing poorly and they hear from the customers exactly what they want. So it goes both ways they can weaponize that just as well as you started to weaponize that info >>and that's the big argument of do that snowflake still pays the amazon bills, they're still there. So again, repatriation comes back. That's a big conversation that's come up. Um, what's your quick take on that? Because if you're gonna have a castle in the cloud, then you're gonna bring it back to land. I mean, what's that dynamic? Where do you see that compete? Because on one hand is innovation, the other ones maybe cost efficiency. Is that a growth indicator? Slow down? What's your view on the movement from and to the cloud? >>I think there's probably three forces you're finding here. One is the cost advantage in the scale advantage of cloud. So that I think has been going for the past eight years. There's a repatriation movement for a certain subset of customers, I think for cost purposes makes sense. I think that's a tiny handful that believe they can actually run things better than a cloud. The third thing we're seeing around repatriation is not necessary against cloud, but you're gonna see more decentralized clouds and things pushed to the edge. Right? So you look at companies like Cloudflare Fastly or a company that we're investing in Cato networks. All ideas focus on secure access at the edge. And so I think that's not repatriation of my own data center, but it's kind of a disaggregated of cloud from one giant monolithic cloud, like AWS East or like a google region in europe to multiple smaller clouds for governance purposes, security purposes or legacy purposes. >>So I'm looking at my notes here, looking down on the screen here for this to read this because it's uh to cut and paste from your thesis on the cloud, the cloud. The of the $38 billion invested uh this quarter. Um uh Ai and ml number one um analytics number two, security number three. Actually security number one. But you can see the bubbles here. So all those are data problems I need to ask you. I see data is hot data as intellectual property. How do you look at that? Because we've been reporting on this and we just started the cube conversation around workflows as intellectual property. If you have scale and your motives in the cloud, you could argue that data and the workflows around those data streams is intellectual property, it's a protocol. >>I believe both are. And they just kind of go hand in hand like peanut butter and jelly. Right? So data for sure. I p So if you know people talk about days in the oil, the new resource. That's largely true because the powers a bunch. But the workflow to your point john is sticky because every company is a unique snowflake, right? Like the process used to run the cube and your business different how we run our business. So if you can build a workflow that leverages the data that's super sticky. So in terms of switching costs, if my work is very bespoke to your business then I think that's competitive advantage. >>Well certainly your workflow is a lot different than the cube. You guys. Just a lot of billions of dollars in capital. Uh, we're talking to all the people out here jerry. Great to have you on final thought on your thesis. Where does it go from here? What's been the reaction? Uh, no, you put it out there. Great, love the research. I think you're on point on this one. Where did, where's it go from here? >>We have to follow pieces. Um, in the near term one around, you know, deep diver on open source. So look out for that pretty soon. And how that's been a powerful strategy a second is this kind of disaggregated of the cloud be a Blockchain and you know, decentralized apps, be edge applications. So that's in the near term two more pieces of, of deep dive we're doing. And then the goal here is to update this on a quarterly and annual basis. So we're getting submissions from founders that wanted to say, hey, you missed us Or he screwed up here. We got the big cloud vendors saying, Hey jerry, we just lost his new things. So our goal here is to update this every single year and then probably do look back saying, okay, uh, were we wrong? We're right. And then let's say the castle clouds 2022 we'll see the difference were the more unicorns, were there more services were the IPO's happening. So look for some short term work from us on analytics, like around open source and clouds. And then next year we hope that all this forward saying, Hey, you have two year, what's happening? What's changing? >>Great stuff And, and congratulations on the Southern news. You guys put another half a billion dollars into early, early stage, which is your roots. Are you still doing a lot of great investments in a lot of unicorns? Congratulations that great luck on the team. Thanks for coming on And congratulations. You nailed this one. I think I'm gonna look back and say that this is a pretty seminal piece of work here. Thanks for for sharing. >>Thanks john, Thanks for having me as >>always.

(upbeat music) >> Hello, and welcome to today's session of the AWS Global Public Sector Partner Awards. I'm delighted to introduce our next guests to highlight the award for Best Partner Transformation, Best Telco Solution, and of course, I'm your host Natalie Erlich for theCUBE. We are now joined by Avishai Sharlin Division President at Amdocs Technology, and Ralf Hellenbran, Program Director of Technology at Vodafone Germany. Thank you, gentlemen, for joining the program. >> Thank you for having us. >> Our pleasure. >> Let's have the opening question for both of you. You know, but let's first start with Avishai. What has been the highlight to date in the journey of both Amdocs and Vodafone? >> Well, it's a good question. I believe that the highlight was the teaming and getting things done together as partners. Unlike many previous experiences, this time, we understood that success equals us working hand in hand together, making sure that we overcome and achieve everything as true partners. So the greatest obstacles and also the biggest achievement were done together as one team. We always speak about the hurdles, we negotiate sometimes. But eventually, we're coming to the solution together, and making sure that everything is properly managed and properly done in the right timing, and according to plans. >> Terrific, well, Ralf, let's go to you. What do you see as the highlights of this collaboration. >> Now exactly what Avishai said, but let me add to that. What we are following is a real collaborative approach. Now, there's a lot of strengths in that approach. Because we are using for example, swarm intelligence, we are using elements, which you see in clouds attempts as well, for example, yeah, but you see it in agile attempts and agile working methods. And this is what we applied. And as Avishai said, we are doing that as real partners in the program. And we are pulling a lot of strengths out of that by detecting problems early, we have a high level of transparency, we put everything on the table, and differences that we do not fight about the problems. We work collaborative on the solution. And that's really kind of new to the industry we are working in. And that's kind of game changing for it. At the beginning, we said it will be game changing if it works. Now we see that it does. >> Terrific. Well, why do you think generally speaking, that the Telco industry has been so slow, to you know, embrace these kinds of innovations? Let's start with Avishai. >> Yeah. It's less about I think the actual technology, it's more about a handful of parameters that need to be aligned, once you are trying to address these big transformations. You need to upskill a lot of people, you need to educate your manpower, to new technologies and new ways and processes, how to embrace DevOps, how to work in a cloud environment, how to embrace an agile, safe methodology. So there are many small pockets of things that needs to be changed. Not a single element, actually is the same as like five years ago. So in a way, if the organization as a whole, is not being transformed, it's very tough to embrace all those new technologies and succeed in such a journey. So for us, and I think also to our partners in Vodafone, it was a mutual understanding that we need to not just work together, but also tackle the new technologies and methods and processes all together and change the entire organization and ecosystem in order to succeed. In many other cases in the industry, we see that some pockets are not being changed. And then even if the technology is right, you're missing the upscaling of people, if you upskill the people and you forgot the technology, and so on so forth. >> Perfect now, Ralf, I'd love for you to respond to that question as well. >> So the Telco industry is a quite complex industry, that you look to the product it seems to be quite easy. You pick up a phone and you do a phone call or you go to the internet and so on and so forth. But if you think of all the services, which you're using via your smartphone, for example, yeah, it's far away from just doing a phone call. So at the same time where the Telco industry is producing and selling products, it's producing and selling services. At the same time, while you're using it for leisure, you're also using it for emergency calls. So there's a high level of safety, which we need to bring, and we need to pair it with a lot of innovation elements, right, both together. Now, if you take all this and you think of the complexity, it's not easy to introduce new methods and new ways of working, etc, to such an industry, again you need to take two things into account, you need to make it very safe and stable and educated and controlled. And at the same time, you need to be very fast, because it's a fast moving industry. And both together explains how we adopt it and why sometimes we are a bit slower than others, because the trial and error, yeah, it's not that easy, because the error cannot be allowed in big scale. The more I'm happy that in the approach we're taking together with Amdocs and also AWS, we can apply these new methods while keeping the safety and stability. >> Terrific, well, thank you for outlining that safety methodology. Avishai, I'd like to move this back to you. How are you redefining this operation through DevOps and automation? >> Oh, that's an interesting question. I think that automation, needs to be baked into almost everything that we're doing in such a transformation. It's not from the basic technology stuff, but it goes into all the processes, the way you develop, the way you test. The way you deploy, the way later on, you're making sure that everything run in the right way. So automation is key fundamental element in the end to end journey of such a big transformation, especially if you're going into agile development, and you need to fail fast, react fast, change fast, and then continue onwards with a new solution. So first, as you rightfully said, it's automation. And DevOps is also key over here, because you need to make sure that what you develop is also something that you deploy in the right way. So you need to put in place all the right mechanism, such as (indistinct), and the cloud frameworks, and the relevant different technologies that are adhering into this end to end solution. >> Perfect, now, Ralf, what are your thoughts? How are you redefining the operation now through DevOps and automation? >> We are trying to solve the paradox. Again, the paradox is we want to have things very stable, that would dictate us to do very detailed plans and to adhere to it and so on this is what we did in the past, it fostered for example, taylorism, and similar things. Now, we want to go a step further, we want to apply agile methods, we want to dismantle the taylorism. And the techniques around DevOps, cloud operation, etc, agile methods help us to do that. Now, while we are transforming our way of working, we don't want to lose the good elements of what we have been doing before, we want to do a step forward and not at the same time step back. And therefore we are combining things. And automation, for example, is one way to do that. DevOps is another way to do that. We are joining the good thinking of operations and the good thinking of development together, and we are pulling additional strengths out of that, while not taking into account or taking on board the weaknesses of the former approach. So it's a stepwise transformation we are following. Automation helps us to focus on the real problems, and not on the things you can automate by technology. >> Terrific. Well, now Avishai, bringing this back to you, Ralf talks about agility and also DevOps, explain the journey today on such a large program. >> The the journey, in what sense? Can you give me some coloring? >> Yeah tell us about this collaboration and keeping that in mind, keeping in mind agility as well as DevOps. You know, the step by step process in developing such a large collaborative program. >> Thank you for clarification. So I think that the journey as a whole had several components, (indistinct) and myself also the beginning about the nature of being true partners here. But it is also about establishing something very new in the industry. Many of the things that we're working are, you know, the first time that we're doing agile manner of developing software and testing, it's so fast, it's the first time we're implementing the latest and greatest DevOps technologies. The first time, we're adhering into new standards and way and behavior from a modernized technology organization. So in a way, this journey is all about a mixture of innovation, new stuff, on one hand, aligned with a very, very tight in a good way, I would call it German engineering, in the sense of making sure the things are in place and making sure that the processes are well defined. And we're seeing at any given point, the different status we're in, what needs to be improved, what is going well, and what future lies ahead. >> Staying with that topic on the journey opening to both of you, and perhaps Ralf would like to jump in here, first, how have AWS technologies been featured as part of this journey. >> AWS has been chosen wisely by us because of its technology components brought to the table. Now, without now pointing to a particular service, which we are using, we talked about automation, we talked about DevOps, now everyone can itself about how AWS in general helps to foster that, the sheer fact that we can merge the different way of working with a different mindset of people working in our collaboration and technology components coming not only, but also from AWS, this is ensuring our success. If you would pull out one of these elements, yeah, out of the equation, that most probably it would not work. I have problems to rate which element is more important, they are all part of the puzzle and otherwise, you will not see the picture and create the picture. So in a nutshell, we are utilizing the AWS technologies in order to allow the speed of development, lots of first times which we have in our collaboration, and the AWS technologies are an essential part of that. >> Terrific and Avishai, what are your thoughts on that? >> I think that the collaboration with AWS goes in several, in a way different shapes and form. On the technology, pure technology level, we're utilizing native EKS, we're moving with the managed Kubernetes. We're using, you know the latest technology in databases, and many other very, very cool technologies coming from AWS. And on a different level, completely different level, I think that AWS understands the behavior of complex enterprise and are assisting us with programs, looking into well architected framework and how to work in a managed environment and what are the technologies that we need to utilize. And also in, from an Amdocs perspective, something that assisted us a lot in this journey, we have a unique technology which defines an end to end solution to development within a micro service cloud native environment, we'll call it M360. AWS assisted a lot in making this a mature technology and allowing us to develop faster and fully utilize the benefits of cloud native environments. >> Terrific, now to both of you, what do you see as the next step in your collaboration together? Let's bring this to Ralf. >> There is no distinct next step. And maybe this is the consequence of the way of working we have established. There are many small steps we will pursue and most probably, if you want to know, which are the next steps, you need to talk to our teams. This is another aspect of this new way of working, which we apply. The people working in that approach, they tell us how they construct, how they structure this approach. If I would summarize it, we are constantly tearing down the walls between the companies, between silos, between departments working in that collaboration, and we are getting more close together every day. And solving problems quicker, we are getting them quicker on the table, we are getting them quicker, and softer, faster, soft, and AWS, Amdocs are part of this. And this is really nice to see and be part of, that this is really happening. So the next step is, foster the collaboration. >> Avishai do you have any thoughts? >> Yeah, on a personal level, I think the next step would be to glide together in Europe. But on a more serious note, I think that this is becoming like a true partnership. And I think that I see a lot of empowerment coming from both sides, allowing the team to develop together, to think together and to start to create new stuff, that even if you plan ahead, you will never achieve without true collaboration. So this empowerment, the fact that the teams feel that they can do things on their own, and make one and one equals three, two, or you know, or seven, is the big change that I see in front of us. And I really feel it in the air. And I also feel it in in the way we act and we move forward. >> Yeah, so Ralf, how do you see that this program will enable continuous innovation? >> Oh, it does already. So if you're looking to big transformation programs of the past, (indistinct) beside the fact that lots of them actually did not achieve what they are, what they were asked to achieve. Usually big programs, do big plans, and then you have a very long period of preparation. And then usually you have a rather big bank or life and then everything shall be fun. That sometimes work but not most times, it's difficult. Now within our program, we are doing that in collaboration, but step by step by step. And it's more an evolution than a revolution, which we are doing. At least in the way we deploy things, again, we are back to DevOps, continuous integration, continuous deployment and so on all these elements, which you can see in these approaches. And this is where the wheel spinning slice. So it's evolving step by step. And it's bringing benefits step by steps. So the benefits are already in place into to a certain extent, and they're constantly growing. >> Terrific, Avishai, what are your thoughts? How do you see the innovation of being able to continue and even further? >> In a way we're in a world that everything is in continuum, so it's continuous delivery, and continuous development and also continuous innovation. As long as you know, the ecosystem of ours continues to innovate as a whole, we are part of it. And inevitably, we are part of the larger ecosystem on one hand, and also players within it on a smaller scale in this project and as organization. So I think innovation is baked into everything we're doing today. Sometime it's small incremental steps, sometimes it's big, innovative moves, but all in all, it's something that is currently part of our DNA. >> And how is this system helping you both you know, be more proactive? Either one of you who would like to go first? >> No, I started first. >> Avishai? Okay. So, we are data driven, we are way more data driven. And by knowing exactly what is happening, we can be faster, we can be more innovative, we can be more productive. So, in cases where we either discover a problem or we discovering opportunity, we are much faster in analyzing whether it's really one, how should we redirect on that? How can we solve it or utilize it? And that's really working well. >> Perfect. And, you know, Avishai, feel free to join in on that too. >> In the digitized economy, I think that productivity comes a lot from the business side. If there is something that completely changed lately is the fact that business people are driving many, many changes on one end, and technology is here to adhere on one end and flexible to to move forward. So many of the productive concepts are coming from non technology savvy people, and the ability of what we're doing together to adjust and support different business behaviors and business models, and also, you know, business initiatives is thought of as being productive and being able to adapt into the digitalized economy. >> Let me join in on that one, what Avishai said, Let's think of a business person who wants to change something, and you don't know whether it's a white way as a corporation. Now you bring in the technology bits and pieces from different angles, and all of a sudden, you can combine it with a data driven approach, then, you know much better how to react on this business demand and how to bring it to life by using technology. Yeah, that might be a very high level of example of what we're doing here. Again, collaboration, get it done together with is the theme of that, technology is a very important part of that, paired with the business. >> Yeah, we talked on some very broad terms like themes, collaboration, innovation, I just want to focus a bit now on automation. Why do you think it is so critical to the vision of this program, Avishai. >> First of all, because it ends with ation, and everything that has this, but what I think that we started with this, automation is fundamental to everything that needs to be nimble, everything that needs to be fast. You cannot do it manually. And if you want to react either to a business demand or to a data driven decision, analytic decision, if you want to adopt new technology, if you want to test a new business scenario or technology scenario, you need automation to be part, inevitable part of everything that you're doing. So automation is a key element in everything that we're doing. And it's critical part of also the way to look into the future and to make sure that everything is working the right way. >> Perfect Ralf, any quick thoughts on that? >> Actually, nothing, nothing to add. >> All right, terrific. Well, it's been so wonderful to have you on the program. I know people are coming in from all over the world to join us. Really fantastic opportunity to highlight this important innovation in the Telco sector. Glad to have you here. Ralf Hellenbran, Program Director of Technology at Vodafone Germany, as well as Avishai Sharlin, the Division President at Amdocs Technology. we're highlighting the award that they won as part of the AWS, Global Public Sector Partner Awards. So great to have you on the show. And I'm your host Natalie Erlich, do stay tuned for more coverage. (upbeat music)

(bright music) >> Data by its very nature is distributed and siloed, but most data architectures today are highly centralized. Organizations are increasingly challenged to organize and manage data, and turn that data into insights. This idea of a single monolithic platform for data, it's giving way to new thinking. Where a decentralized approach, with open cloud native principles and federated governance, will become an underpinning of digital transformations. Hi everybody. This is Dave Volante. Welcome back to HPE Discover 2021, the virtual version. You're watching theCube's continuous coverage of the event and we're here with Matt Maccaux, who's a field CTO for Ezmeral Software at HPE. We're going to talk about HPE software strategy, and Ezmeral and specifically how to take AI analytics to scale and ensure the productivity of data teams. Matt, welcome to theCube. Good to see you. >> Good to see you again, Dave. Thanks for having me today. >> You're welcome. So talk a little bit about your role as a CTO. Where do you spend your time? >> I spend about half of my time talking to customers and partners about where they are on their digital transformation journeys and where they struggle with this sort of last phase where we start talking about bringing those cloud principles and practices into the data world. How do I take those data warehouses, those data lakes, those distributed data systems, into the enterprise and deploy them in a cloud-like manner? Then the other half of my time is working with our product teams to feed that information back, so that we can continually innovate to the next generation of our software platform. >> So when I remember, I've been following HP and HPE, for a long, long time, theCube has documented, we go back to sort of when the company was breaking in two parts, and at the time a lot of people were saying, "Oh, HP is getting rid of their software business, they're getting out of software." I said, "No, no, no, hold on. They're really focusing", and the whole focus around hybrid cloud and now as a service, you've really retooling that business and sharpened your focus. So tell us more about Ezmeral, it's a cool name, but what exactly is Ezmeral software? >> I get this question all the time. So what is Ezmeral? Ezmeral is a software platform for modern data and analytics workloads, using open source software components. We came from some inorganic growth. We acquired a company called Cytec, that brought us a zero trust approach to doing security with containers. We bought BlueData who came to us with an orchestrator before Kubernetes even existed in mainstream. They were orchestrating workloads using containers for some of these more difficult workloads. Clustered applications, distributed applications like Hadoop. Then finally we acquired MapR, which gave us this scale out distributed file system and additional analytical capabilities. What we've done is we've taken those components and we've also gone out into the marketplace to see what open source projects exist to allow us to bring those cloud principles and practices to these types of workloads, so that we can take things like Hadoop, and Spark, and Presto, and deploy and orchestrate them using open source Kubernetes. Leveraging GPU's, while providing that zero trust approach to security, that's what Ezmeral is all about is taking those cloud practices and principles, but without locking you in. Again, using those open source components where they exist, and then committing and contributing back to the opensource community where those projects don't exist. >> You know, it's interesting, thank you for that history, and when I go back, I have been there since the early days of Big Data and Hadoop and so forth and MapR always had the best product, but they couldn't get it out. Back then it was like kumbaya, open source, and they had this kind of proprietary system but it worked and that's why it was the best product. So at the same time they participated in open source projects because everybody did, that's where the innovation is going. So you're making that really hard to use stuff easier to use with Kubernetes orchestration, and then obviously, I'm presuming with the open source chops, sort of leaning into the big trends that you're seeing in the marketplace. So my question is, what are those big trends that you're seeing when you speak to technology executives which is a big part of what you do? >> So the trends are, I think, are a couplefold, and it's funny about Hadoop, but I think the final nails in the coffin have been hammered in with the Hadoop space now. So that leading trend, of where organizations are going, we're seeing organizations wanting to go cloud first. But they really struggle with these data-intensive workloads. Do I have to store my data in every cloud? Am I going to pay egress in every cloud? Well, what if my data scientists are most comfortable in AWS, but my data analysts are more comfortable in Azure, how do I provide that multi-cloud experience for these data workloads? That's the number one question I get asked, and that's probably the biggest struggle for these chief data officers, chief digital officers, is how do I allow that innovation but maintaining control over my data compliance especially when we talk international standards, like GDPR, to restrict access to data, the ability to be forgotten, in these multinational organizations how do I sort of square all of those components? Then how do I do that in a way that just doesn't lock me into another appliance or software vendor stack? I want to be able to work within the confines of the ecosystem, use the tools that are out there, but allow my organization to innovate in a very structured compliant way. >> I mean, I love this conversation and you just, to me, you hit on the key word, which is organization. I want to talk about what some of the barriers are. And again, you heard my wrap up front. I really do think that we've created, not only from a technology standpoint, and yes the tooling is important, but so is the organization, and as you said an analyst might want to work in one environment, a data scientist might want to work in another environment. The data may be very distributed. You might have situations where they're supporting the line of business. The line of business is trying to build new products, and if I have to go through this monolithic centralized organization, that's a barrier for me. And so we're seeing that change, that I kind of alluded to it up front, but what do you see as the big barriers that are blocking this vision from becoming a reality? >> It very much is organization, Dave. The technology's actually no longer the inhibitor here. We have enough technology, enough choices out there that technology is no longer the issue. It's the organization's willingness to embrace some of those technologies and put just the right level of control around accessing that data. Because if you don't allow your data scientists and data analysts to innovate, they're going to do one of two things. They're either going to leave, and then you have a huge problem keeping up with your competitors, or they're going to do it anyway. And they're going to do it in a way that probably doesn't comply with the organizational standards. So the more progressive enterprises that I speak with have realized that they need to allow these various analytical users to choose the tools they want, to self provision those as they need to and get access to data in a secure and compliant way. And that means we need to bring the cloud to generally where the data is because it's a heck of a lot easier than trying to bring the data where the cloud is, while conforming to those data principles, and that's HPE's strategy. You've heard it from our CEO for years now. Everything needs to be delivered as a service. It's Ezmeral Software that enables that capability, such as self-service and secure data provisioning, et cetera. >> Again, I love this conversation because if you go back to the early days of Hadoop, that was what was profound about a Hadoop. Bring five megabytes of code to a petabyte of data, and it didn't happen. We shoved it all into a data lake and it became a data swamp. And that's okay, it's a one dot oh, you know, maybe in data as is like data warehouses, data hubs, data lakes, maybe this is now a four dot oh, but we're getting there. But open source, one thing's for sure, it continues to gain momentum, it's where the innovation is. I wonder if you could comment on your thoughts on the role that open-source software plays for large enterprises, maybe some of the hurdles that are there, whether they're legal or licensing, or just fears, how important is open source software today? >> I think the cloud native developments, following the 12 factor applications, microservices based, paved the way over the last decade to make using open source technology tools and libraries mainstream. We have to tip our hats to Red Hat, right? For allowing organizations to embrace something so core as an operating system within the enterprise. But what everyone realized is that it's support that's what has to come with that. So we can allow our data scientists to use open source libraries, packages, and notebooks, but are we going to allow those to run in production? So if the answer is no, well? Then if we can't get support, we're not going to allow that. So where HPE Ezmeral is taking the lead here is, again, embracing those open source capabilities, but, if we deploy it, we're going to support it. Or we're going to work with the organization that has the committers to support it. You call HPE, the same phone number you've been calling for years for tier one 24 by seven support, and we will support your Kubernetes, your Spark your Presto, your Hadoop ecosystem of components. We're that throat to choke and we'll provide, all the way up to break/fix support, for some of these components and packages, giving these large enterprises the confidence to move forward with open source, but knowing that they have a trusted partner in which to do so. >> And that's why we've seen such success with say, for instance, managed services in the cloud, versus throwing out all the animals in the zoo and say, okay, figure it out yourself. But then, of course, what we saw, which was kind of ironic, was people finally said, "Hey, we can do this in the cloud more easily." So that's where you're seeing a lot of data land. However, the definition of cloud or the notion of cloud is changing. No longer is it just this remote set of services, "Somewhere out there in the cloud", some data center somewhere, no, it's moving to on-prem, on-prem is creating hybrid connections. You're seeing co-location facilities very proximate to the cloud. We're talking now about the edge, the near edge, and the far edge, deeply embedded. So that whole notion of cloud is changing. But I want to ask you, there's still a big push to cloud, everybody has a cloud first mantra, how do you see HPE competing in this new landscape? >> I think collaborating is probably a better word, although you could certainly argue if we're just leasing or renting hardware, then it would be competition, but I think again... The workload is going to flow to where the data exists. So if the data's being generated at the edge and being pumped into the cloud, then cloud is prod. That's the production system. If the data is generated via on-premises systems, then that's where it's going to be executed. That's production, and so HPE's approach is very much co-exist. It's a co-exist model of, if you need to do DevTests in the cloud and bring it back on-premises, fine, or vice versa. The key here is not locking our customers and our prospective clients into any sort of proprietary stack, as we were talking about earlier, giving people the flexibility to move those workloads to where the data exists, that is going to allow us to continue to get share of wallet, mind share, continue to deploy those workloads. And yes, there's going to competition that comes along. Do you run this on a GCP or do you run it on a GreenLake on-premises? Sure, we'll have those conversations, but again, if we're using open source software as the foundation for that, then actually where you run it is less relevant. >> So there's a lot of choices out there, when it comes to containers generally and Kubernetes specifically, and you may have answered this, you get the zero trust component, you've got the orchestrator, you've got the scale-out piece, but I'm interested in hearing in your words why an enterprise would or should consider Ezmeral instead of alternatives to Kubernetes solutions? >> It's a fair question, and it comes up in almost every conversation. "Oh, we already do Kubernetes, we have a Kubernetes standard", and that's largely true in most of the enterprises I speak to. They're using one of the many on-premises distributions to their cloud distributions, and they're all fine. They're all fine for what they were built for. Ezmeral was generally built for something a little different. Yes, everybody can run microservices based applications, DevOps based workloads, but where Ezmeral is different is for those data intensive, in clustered applications. Those sorts of applications require a certain degree of network awareness, persistent storage, et cetera, which requires either a significant amount of intelligence. Either you have to write in Golang, or you have to write your own operators, or Ezmeral can be that easy button. We deploy those stateful applications, because we bring a persistent storage layer, that came from MapR. We're really good at deploying those stateful clustered applications, and, in fact, we've opened sourced that as a project, KubeDirector, that came from BlueData, and we're really good at securing these, using SPIFFE and SPIRE, to ensure that there's that zero trust approach, that came from Scytale, and we've wrapped all of that in Kubernetes. So now you can take the most difficult, gnarly complex data intensive applications in your enterprise and deploy them using open source. And if that means we have to co-exist with an existing Kubernetes distribution, that's fine. That's actually the most common scenario that I walk into is, I start asking about, "What about these other applications you haven't done yet?" The answer is usually, "We haven't gotten to them yet", or "We're thinking about it", and that's when we talk about the capabilities of Ezmeral and I usually get the response, "Oh. A, we didn't know you existed and B well, let's talk about how exactly you do that." So again, it's more of a co-exist model rather than a compete with model, Dave. >> Well, that makes sense. I mean, I think again, a lot of people, they go, "Oh yeah, Kubernetes, no big deal. It's everywhere." But you're talking about a solution, kind of taking a platform approach with capabilities. You got to protect the data. A lot of times, these microservices aren't so micro and things are happening really fast. You've got to be secure. You got to be protected. And like you said, you've got a single phone number. You know, people say one throat to choke. Somebody in the media the other day said, "No, no. Single hand to shake." It's more of a partnership. I think that's apropos for HPE, Matt, with your heritage. >> That one's better. >> So, you know, thinking about this whole, we've gone through the pre big data days and the big data was all the hot buzzword. People don't maybe necessarily use that term anymore, although the data is bigger and getting bigger, which is kind of ironic. Where do you see this whole space going? We've talked about that sort of trend toward breaking down the silos, decentralization, maybe these hyper specialized roles that we've created, maybe getting more embedded or aligned with the line of business. How do you see... It feels like the next 10 years are going to be different than the last 10 years. How do you see it, Matt? >> I completely agree. I think we are entering this next era, and I don't know if it's well-defined. I don't know if I would go out on an edge to say exactly what the trend is going to be. But as you said earlier, data lakes really turned into data swamps. We ended up with lots of them in the enterprise, and enterprises had to allow that to happen. They had to let each business unit or each group of users collect the data that they needed and IT sort of had to deal with that down the road. I think that the more progressive organizations are leading the way. They are, again, taking those lessons from cloud and application developments, microservices, and they're allowing a freedom of choice. They're allowing data to move, to where those applications are, and I think this decentralized approach is really going to be king. You're going to see traditional software packages. You're going to see open source. You're going to see a mix of those, but what I think will probably be common throughout all of that is there's going to be this sense of automation, this sense that, we can't just build an algorithm once, release it and then wish it luck. That we've got to treat these analytics, and these data systems, as living things. That there's life cycles that we have to support. Which means we need to have DevOps for our data science. We need a CI/CD for our data analytics. We need to provide engineering at scale, like we do for software engineering. That's going to require automation, and an organizational thinking process, to allow that to actually occur. I think all of those things. The sort of people, process, products. It's all three of those things that are going to have to come into play, but stealing those best ideas from cloud and application developments, I think we're going to end up with probably something new over the next decade or so. >> Again, I'm loving this conversation, so I'm going to stick with it for a sec. It's hard to predict, but some takeaways that I have, Matt, from our conversation, I wonder if you could comment? I think the future is more open source. You mentioned automation, Devs are going to be key. I think governance as code, security designed in at the point of code creation, is going to be critical. It's no longer going be a bolt on. I don't think we're going to throw away the data warehouse or the data hubs or the data lakes. I think they become a node. I like this idea, I don't know if you know Zhamak Dehghani? but she has this idea of a global data mesh where these tools, lakes, whatever, they're a node on the mesh. They're discoverable. They're shareable. They're governed in a way. I think the mistake a lot of people made early on in the big data movement is, "Oh, we got data. We have to monetize our data." As opposed to thinking about what products can I build that are based on data that then can lead to monetization? I think the other thing I would say is the business has gotten way too technical. (Dave chuckles) It's alienated a lot of the business lines. I think we're seeing that change, and I think things like Ezmeral that simplify that, are critical. So I'll give you the final thoughts, based on my rant. >> No, your rant is spot on Dave. I think we are in agreement about a lot of things. Governance is absolutely key. If you don't know where your data is, what it's used for, and can apply policies to it. It doesn't matter what technology you throw at it, you're going to end up in the same state that you're essentially in today, with lots of swamps. I did like that concept of a node or a data mesh. It kind of goes back to the similar thing with a service mesh, or a set of APIs that you can use. I think we're going to have something similar with data. The trick is always, how heavy is it? How easy is it to move about? I think there's always going to be that latency issue, maybe not within the data center, but across the WAN. Latency is still going to be key, which means we need to have really good processes to be able to move data around. As you said, govern it. Determine who has access to what, when, and under what conditions, and then allow it to be free. Allow people to bring their choice of tools, provision them how they need to, while providing that audit, compliance and control. And then again, as you need to provision data across those nodes for those use cases, do so in a well measured and governed way. I think that's sort of where things are going. But we keep using that term governance, I think that's so key, and there's nothing better than using open source software because that provides traceability, auditability and this, frankly, openness that allows you to say, "I don't like where this project's going. I want to go in a different direction." And it gives those enterprises a control over these platforms that they've never had before. >> Matt, thanks so much for the discussion. I really enjoyed it. Awesome perspectives. >> Well thank you for having me, Dave. Excellent conversation as always. Thanks for having me again. >> You're very welcome. And thank you for watching everybody. This is theCube's continuous coverage of HPE Discover 2021. Of course, the virtual version. Next year, we're going to be back live. My name is Dave Volante. Keep it right there. (upbeat music)

>>data by its very nature is distributed and siloed. But most data architectures today are highly centralized. Organizations are increasingly challenged to organize and manage data and turn that data into insights this idea of a single monolithic platform for data, it's giving way to new thinking. We're a decentralized approach with open cloud native principles and Federated governance will become an underpinning underpinning of digital transformations. Hi everybody, this is Day Volonte. Welcome back to HP discover 2021 the virtual version. You're watching the cubes continuous coverage of the event and we're here with Matt Mako is the field C T O for Israel software at H P E. And we're gonna talk about HP software strategy and esmeralda and specifically how to take a I analytics to scale and ensure the productivity of data teams. Matt, welcome to the cube. Good to see you. >>Good to see you again. Dave thanks for having me today. >>You're welcome. So talk a little bit about your role as CTO. Where do you spend your time? >>Yeah. So I spend about half of my time talking to customers and partners about where they are on their digital transformation journeys and where they struggle with this sort of last phase where we start talking about bringing those cloud principles and practices into the data world. How do I take those data warehouses, those data lakes, those distributed data systems into the enterprise and deploy them in a cloud like manner. And then the other half of my time is working with our product teams to feed that information back so that we can continually innovate to the next generation of our software platform. >>So when I remember I've been following HP and HP for a long, long time, the cube is documented. We go back to sort of when the company was breaking in two parts and at the time a lot of people were saying, oh HP is getting rid of the software business to get out of software. I said no, no, no hold on, they're really focusing and and the whole focus around hybrid cloud and and now as a service and so you're really retooling that business and sharpen your focus. So so tell us more about asthma, it's cool name. But what exactly is as moral software, >>I get this question all the time. So what is Israel? Israel is a software platform for modern data and analytics workloads using open source software components. And we came from some inorganic growth. We acquired a company called citing that brought us a zero trust approach to doing security with containers. We bought blue data who came to us with an orchestrator before kubernetes even existed in mainstream. They were orchestrating workloads using containers for some of these more difficult workloads, clustered applications, distributed applications like Hadoop. And then finally we acquired Map are which gave us this scale out, distributed file system and additional analytical capabilities. And so what we've done is we've taken those components and we've also gone out into the marketplace to see what open source projects exist, to allow us to bring those club principles and practices to these types of workloads so that we can take things like Hadoop and spark and Presto and deploy and orchestrate them using open source kubernetes, leveraging Gpu s while providing that zero trust approaches security. That's what Israel is all about. Is taking those cloud practices and principles but without locking you in again using those open source components where they exist and then committing and contributing back to the open source community where those projects don't exist. >>You know, it's interesting. Thank you for that history. And when I go back, I always been there since the early days of big data and Hadoop and so forth. The map are always had the best product. But but they can't get back then. It was like Kumbaya open source and they had this kind of proprietary system, but it worked and that's why it was the best product. And so at the same time they participated in open source projects because everybody that that's where the innovation is going. So you're making that really hard to use stuff easier to use with kubernetes orchestration. And then obviously I'm presuming with the open source chops, sort of leaning into the big trends that you're seeing in the marketplace. So my question is, what are those big trends that you're seeing when you speak to technology executives, which is a big part of what you do? >>Yeah. So the trends I think are a couple of fold and it's funny about Duke, I think the final nails in the coffin have been hammered in with the Hadoop space now. And so that that leading trend of of where organizations are going. We're seeing organizations wanting to go cloud first, but they really struggle with these data intensive workloads. Do I have to store my data in every cloud? Am I going to pay egress in every cloud? Well, what if my data scientists are most comfortable in AWS? But my data analysts are more comfortable in Azure. How do I provide that multi cloud experience for these data workloads? That's the number one question I get asked. And that's the probably the biggest struggle for these Chief Data Officers. Chief Digital Officer XYZ. How do I allow that innovation but maintaining control over my data compliance especially, we talk international standards like G. D. P. R. To restrict access to data, the ability to be forgotten in these multinational organizations. How do I sort of square all of those components and then how do I do that in a way that just doesn't lock me into another appliance or software vendors stack? I want to be able to work within the confines of the ecosystem. Use the tools that are out there but allow my organization to innovate in a very structured, compliant way. >>I mean I love this conversation. And just to me you hit on the key word which is organization. I want to I want to talk about what some of the barriers are. And again, you heard my wrap up front. I I really do think that we've created not only from a technology standpoint and yes, the tooling is important, but so is the organization. And as you said, you know, an analyst might want to work in one environment, a data scientist might want to work in another environment. The data may be very distributed. They maybe you might have situations where they're supporting the line of business. The line of business is trying to build new products. And if I have to go through this, hi this monolithic centralized organization, that's a barrier uh for me. And so we're seeing that change that kind of alluded to it upfront. But what do you see as the big, you know, barriers that are blocking this vision from becoming a reality? >>It very much is organization dave it's the technology is actually no longer the inhibitor here. We have enough technology, enough choices out there. That technology is no longer the issue. It's the organization's willingness to embrace some of those technologies and put just the right level of control around accessing that data because if you don't allow your data scientists and data analysts to innovate, they're going to do one of two things, they're either going to leave and then you have a huge problem keeping up with your competitors or they're gonna do it anyway, and they're gonna do it in a way that probably doesn't comply with the organizational standards. So the more progressive enterprises that I speak with have realized that they need to allow these various analytical users to choose the tools, they want to self provision those as they need to and get access to data in a secure and compliant way. And that means we need to bring the cloud to generally where the data is because it's a heck of a lot easier than trying to bring the data where the cloud is while conforming to those data principles. And that's, that's Hve strategy, you've heard it from our CEO for years now, everything needs to be delivered as a service. It's essential software that enables that capability, such as self service and secure data provisioning, etcetera. >>Again, I love this conversation because if you go back to the early days of the Duke, that was what was profound about. Do bring bring five megabytes of code, do a petabyte of data and it didn't happen. We shoved it all into a data lake and it became a data swamp. And so it's okay, you know, and that's okay. It's a one dato maybe maybe in data is is like data warehouses, data hubs data lake. So maybe this is now a four dot Oh, but we're getting there. Uh, so an open but open source one thing's for sure. It continues to gain momentum. It's where the innovation is. I wonder if you could comment on your thoughts on the role that open source software plays for large enterprises. Maybe some of the hurdles that are there, whether they're legal or licensing or or or just fears. How important is open source software today? >>I think the cloud native development, you know, following the 12 factor applications microservices based, pave the way over the last decade to make using open source technology tools and libraries mainstream, we have to tip our hats to red hat right for allowing organizations to embrace something. So core is an operating system within the enterprise. But what everyone realizes that its support, that's what has to come with that. So we can allow our data scientists to use open source libraries, packages and notebooks. But are we going to allow those to run in production? And so if the answer is no, then that if we can't get support, we're not going to allow that. So where HP es Merrill is taking the lead here is again embracing those open source capabilities, but if we deploy it, we're going to support it or we're going to work with the organization that has the committees to support it. You call HPD the same phone number you've been calling for years for tier 1 24 by seven support and we will support your kubernetes, your spark your presto your Hadoop ecosystem of components were that throat to choke and we'll provide all the way up to break fix support for some of these components and packages giving these large enterprises the confidence to move forward with open source but knowing that they have a trusted partner in which to do so >>and that's why we've seen such success with, say, for instance, managed services in the cloud or versus throwing out all the animals in the zoo and say, okay, figure it out yourself. But of course what we saw, which was kind of ironic was we, we saw people finally said, hey, we can do this in the cloud more easily. So that's where you're seeing a lot of data. A land. However, the definition of cloud or the notion of cloud is changing no longer. Is it just this remote set of services somewhere out there? In the cloud? Some data center somewhere. No, it's, it's moving on. Prem on prem is creating hybrid connections you're seeing, you know, co location facility is very proximate to the cloud. We're talking now about the edge, the near edge and the far edge deeply embedded, you know? And so that whole notion of cloud is, is changing. But I want to ask you, there's still a big push to cloud, everybody is a cloud first mantra. How do you see HP competing in this new landscape? >>I I think collaborating is probably a better word, although you could certainly argue if we're just leasing or renting hardware than it would be competition. But I think again, the workload is going to flow to where the data exists. So if the data is being generated at the edge and being pumped into the cloud, then cloud is prod, that's the production system. If the data is generated, the on system on premises systems, then that's where it's going to be executed, that's production. And so HBs approach is very much coexist, coexist model of if you need to do deaf tests in the cloud and bring it back on premises, fine or vice versa. The key here is not locking our customers and our prospective clients into any sort of proprietary stack, as we were talking about earlier, giving people the flexibility to move those workloads to where the data exists. That is going to allow us to continue to get share of wallet. Mindshare, continue to deploy those workloads and yes, there's going to be competition that comes along. Do you run this on a G C P or do you run it on a green lake on premises? Sure. We'll have those conversations. But again, if we're using open source software as the foundation for that, then actually where you run it is less relevant. >>So a lot of, there's a lot of choices out there when it comes to containers generally and kubernetes specifically, uh, you may have answered this, you get zero trust component, you've got the orchestrator, you've got the, the scale out, you know, peace. But I'm interested in hearing in your words why an enterprise would or should consider s morale instead of alternatives to kubernetes solutions? >>It's a fair question. And it comes up in almost every conversation. We already do kubernetes, so we have a kubernetes standard and that's largely true. And most of the enterprises I speak to their using one of the many on premises distributions of the cloud distributions and they're all fine. They're all fine for what they were built for. Israel was generally built for something a little different. Yes, everybody can run microservices based applications, devoPS based workloads, but where is Meryl is different is for those data intensive and clustered applications. Those sort of applications require a certain degree of network awareness, persistent storage etcetera, which requires either a significant amount of intelligence. Either you have to write in go lang or you have to write your own operators or Israel can be that easy button. We deploy those state full applications because we bring a persistent storage later that came from that bar we're really good at deploying those stable clustered applications and in fact we've open sourced that as a project cube director that came from Blue data and we're really good at securing these using spiffy inspire to ensure that there is that zero trust approach that came from side tail and we've wrapped all of that in kubernetes so now you can take the most difficult, gnarly, complex data intensive applications in your enterprise and deploy them using open source and if that means we have to coexist with an existing kubernetes distribution, that's fine. That's actually the most common scenario that I walk into is I start asking about what about these other applications you haven't done yet? The answer is usually we haven't gotten to him yet or we're thinking about it and that's when we talk about the capabilities of s role and I usually get the response, oh, a we didn't know you existed and be, well, let's talk about how exactly you do that. So again, it's more of a coexist model rather than a compete with model. Dave >>Well, that makes sense. I mean, I think again, a lot of people think, oh yeah, Kubernetes, no big deal, it's everywhere. But you're talking about a solution, I'm kind of taking a platform approach with capabilities, you've got to protect the data. A lot of times these microservices aren't some micro uh and things are happening really fast, You've got to be secure, you've got to be protected. And like you said, you've got a single phone number, you know, people say one throat to choke, Somebody said the other day said no, no single hand to shake, it's more of a partnership and I think that's a proposed for HPV met with your >>hair better. >>So you know, thinking about this whole, you know, we've gone through the pre big data days and the big data was all, you know, the hot buzz where people don't maybe necessarily use that term anymore, although the data is bigger and getting bigger, which is kind of ironic. Um where do you see this whole space going? We've talked about that sort of trends are breaking down the silos, decentralization. Maybe these hyper specialized roles that we've created maybe getting more embedded are lined with the line of business. How do you see it feels like the last, the next 10 years are going to be different than the last 10 years. How do you see it matt? >>I completely agree. I think we are entering this next era and I don't know if it's well defined, I don't know if I would go out on an edge to say exactly what the trend is going to be. But as you said earlier, data lakes really turned into data swamps. We ended up with lots of them in the enterprise and enterprises had to allow that to happen. They had to let each business unit or each group of users collect the data that they needed and I. T. Sort of had to deal with that down the road. And so I think the more progressive organizations are leading the way they are again taking those lessons from cloud and application developments, microservices and they're allowing a freedom of choice there, allowing data to move to where those applications are. And I think this decentralized approach is really going to be king. And you're gonna see traditional software packages, you're gonna see open source, you're going to see a mix of those. But what I think we'll probably be common throughout all of that is there's going to be this sense of automation, this sense that we can't just build an algorithm once released and then wish it luck that we've got to treat these these analytics and these these data systems as living things that there's life cycles that we have to support, which means we need to have devops for our data science. We need a ci cd for our data analytics. We need to provide engineering at scale like we do for software engineering. That's going to require automation and an organizational thinking process to allow that to actually occur. And so I think all of those things that sort of people process product, but it's all three of those things are going to have to come into play. But stealing those best ideas from cloud and application development, I think we're going to end up with probably something new over the next decade or so >>again, I'm loving this conversation so I'm gonna stick with it for a second. I it's hard to predict, but I'll some takeaways that I have matt from our conversation. I wonder if you could, you could comment. I think, you know, the future is more open source. You mentioned automation deV's are going to be key. I think governance as code, security designed in at the point of code creation is going to be critical. It's not no longer to be a bolt on and I don't think we're gonna throw away the data warehouse or the data hubs or the data lakes. I think they become a node. I like this idea and you know, jim octagon. But she has this idea of a global data mesh where these tools lakes, whatever their their node on the mesh, they're discoverable. They're shareable. They're they're governed uh in a way and that really I think the mistake a lot of people made early on in the big data movement, Oh we have data, we have to monetize our data as opposed to thinking about what products that I can I build that are based on data that then I can, you know, can lead to monetization. And I think and I think the other thing I would say is the business has gotten way too technical. All right. It's an alienated a lot of the business lines and I think we're seeing that change. Um and I think, you know, things like Edinburgh that simplify that are critical. So I'll give you the final thoughts based on my rent. >>I know you're ready to spot on. Dave. I think we we were in agreement about a lot of things. Governance is absolutely key. If you don't know where your data is, what it's used for and can apply policies to it, it doesn't matter what technology throw at it, you're going to end up in the same state that you're essentially in today with lots of swamps. Uh I did like that concept of of a note or a data mesh. It kind of goes back to the similar thing with a service smashed or a set of a P I is that you can use. I think we're going to have something similar with data that the trick is always how heavy is it? How easy is it to move about? And so I think there's always gonna be that latency issue. Maybe not within the data center, but across the land, latency is still going to be key, which means we need to have really good processes to be able to move data around. As you said, government determine who has access to what, when and under what conditions and then allow it to be free, allow people to bring their choice of tools, provision them how they need to while providing that audit compliance and control. And then again, as as you need to provision data across those notes for those use cases do so in a well measured and govern way. I think that's sort of where things are going. But we keep using that term governance. I think that's so key. And there's nothing better than using open source software because that provides traceability, the audit ability and this frankly openness that allows you to say, I don't like where this project is going. I want to go in a different direction and it gives those enterprises that control over these platforms that they've never had before. >>Matt. Thanks so much for the discussion. I really enjoyed it. Awesome perspectives. >>Well, thank you for having me. Dave are excellent conversation as always. Uh, thanks for having me again. >>All right. You're very welcome. And thank you for watching everybody. This is the cubes continuous coverage of HP discover 2021 of course, the virtual version next year. We're gonna be back live. My name is Dave a lot. Keep it right there. >>Yeah.

>> Welcome to this IBM Watson Health "Client Conversation." We're probing the dynamics of the relationships between IBM and its clients. And we're going to look back, we're going to explore the present situation and we're going to discuss the future state of healthcare. My name is Dave Vellante from theCUBE and with me are Dr. David Huelsman, who is a radiologist at TriHealth, which is a provider of healthcare in hospitals and John Kritzman who is with of course IBM Watson Health. Gentlemen welcome. Thanks so much for coming on. >> Thank you. >> Yeah, thanks for having us. >> Doctor let me say you're welcome. Let me start with you. As an analyst and a TV host in the tech industry, we often focus so much on the shiny new toy, the new widget, the new software. But when I talk to practitioners, almost to a person, they tell me that the relationship and trust are probably the most important elements of their success, in terms of a vendor relationship. And over the last year, we've relied on both personal and professional relationships to get us through some of the most challenging times any of us have ever seen. So, Dr. Huelsman, let me ask you, and thinking about the challenges you faced in 2020, what does partnership mean to you and how would you describe the relationship with IBM? >> Well, it is exactly the reason why when we started our journey on this enterprise imaging project at TriHealth, that we very early on made the decision We only wanted one vendor. We didn't want to do it piecemeal, like say get a vendor neutral archive from one organization, and the radiology viewer from another. We wanted to partner with the chosen vendor and develop that long-term relationship, where we learn from each other and we mutually benefit each other, in sort of not just have a transactional relationship, but that we share the same values. We share the same vision. And that's what stood out to us is Watson Health imagings vision, mirrored TriHealth's in what we were trying to achieve with our enterprise imaging project. >> You know, let me follow up with that if I could. A lot of times you hear the phrase, "Single throat to choke" and it's kind of a pejorative, right? It's a really negative term. And the way you just described that Dr. Huelsman is you were looking for a partnership. Yeah, sure. Maybe it was more manageable and maybe it was a sort of Singletree, but it was really about the partnership, going forward in a shared vision and really shared ownership of the outcome. Is that a fair characterization? >> Yeah, how about more positive is "One hand to shake." >> Wow, yeah, I love it. (chuckles) One hand to shake. I'm going to steal that line. That's good. I like it. Keep it positive. Okay, John, when you think about the past 12 months and I know you have history with TriHealth, and more recently have rejoined the account, but how would you kind of characterize that relationship and particularly anything you can add about the challenges of the 2020? What stands out to you? >> Yeah, I think going back to your one hand to shake or one vendor to hug all that's not allowed during COVID, but we're excited to be back working with you, I am in particular. And at the beginning of this sales process and RFP when you guys were looking for that vendor partner, we did talk to you about the journey, the journey with AI that we already had mature products on the vendor neutral archive side and all the product pieces that you were looking for. And I know you've recently went live over the last year and you've been working through, crawling through and learning to walk and starting to run, hopefully. And at some point we'll get to the end of the marathon, where you'll have all the AI pieces that you're looking for. But this journey has been eyeopening for all of us, from using consultants in the beginning, to developing different team members to help make you successful. So I think I've been tracking this from the outside looking in, and I'm happy to be back, more working direct with you this year to help ensure your longterm success. >> Yeah, that's great John. You have some history there. I'm going to probe that a little bit. So doctor, you talked about this enterprise imaging project. I presume that's part of, that's one of the vectors of this journey that you're on. What are you trying to accomplish in the sort of near term and midterm in 2021? John mentioned AI, is there a data element to this? Are there other, maybe more important pressing things? What are your main goals for 2021? >> Sure. Well, where we are, where we've started, the first step was getting all of our imaging stored consistently in the same place and in the same way. We had like many health system, as you grow, you acquire facilities, you acquire physician practices and they all have their own small packs system, different ways of storing the data. And so it becomes very unwieldy to be a large organization and try to provide a consistent manner of your physicians interacting with the data, with the imaging in the same way. And so it was a very large dissatisfier in our EMR to, oh if you wanted to see cardiovascular imaging, it's this tab. If you wanted to see radiology, it was this tab. If you wanted to see that, oh you got to go to the media tab. And so our big goal is, okay, let's get the enterprise archive. And so the Watson enterprise archive is to get all of our imaging stored in the same place, in the same way. And so that then our referring physicians and now with our patients as well, that you can view all the imaging, access it the same way and have the same tools. And so that's the initial step. And we're not even complete with that first step, that's where COVID and sort of diverting resources, but it's there, it's that foundation, it's there. And so currently we have the radiology, cardiology, orthopedics and just recently OB-GYN, all of those departments have their images stored on our Watson Enterprise Archive. So the ultimate goal was then any imaging, including not just what you typically think of radiology, but endoscopy and arthroscopy and those sort of images, or wound care images, in that any image, any picture in our organization will be stored on the archive. So that then when we have everything on that archive, it's easier to access consistently with the same tools. But it's also one of the large pieces of partnering with with Watson Health Imaging, is the whole cognitive solutions and AI piece. Is that, well now we're storing all the data in a consistent manner, you can access it in a consistent manner, well then we hope to analyze it in a consistent manner and to use machine learning, and the various protocols and algorithms that Watson Health Imaging develops, to employ those and to provide better care. >> Excellent, thank you for that. John, I wonder if you could add to that? I mean, you've probably heard this story before from other clients, as well as TriHealth, I call it EMR chaos. What can you add to this conversation? I'm particularly interested in what IBM Watson Health brings to the table. >> Sure, we've continued to work with TriHealth. And like we said earlier, you do have to walk before you can run. So a lot of this solution being put in place, was getting that archive stood up and getting all the images transferred out of the legacy systems. And I think that we're nearly done with that process. Doing some find audits, able to turn off some of the legacy systems. So the data is there for the easier to do modalities first, the radiology, the cardiology, the OB, as Dr. Huelsman mentioned and the ortho. And now it's really getting to the exciting point of really optimizing everything and then starting to bring in other ologies from the health system, trying to get everything in that single EMR view. So there was a lot of activity going on last year with optimizing the system, trying to fine tune hanging protocols, make the workflow for everybody, so that the systems are efficient. And I think we will continue on that road this year. We'll continue down further with other pieces of the solution that were not implemented yet. So there's some deeper image sharing pieces that are available. There are some pieces with mobile device image capture and video capture that can be deployed. So we look forward to working in 2021 on some of those areas, as well as the increased AI solutions. >> So Dr. Huelsman I wonder if you could double click on that. I mean if you're talking to IBM, what are the priorities that you have? What do you, what do you really need from Watson Health to get there? >> So I spoke with Daniel early last week, and sort of described it as now we have the foundation, we sort of have the skeleton and now it's time to put meat on the bones. And so what we're excited about is the upcoming patient synopsis would be the first piece of AI cognitive solutions that Watson Health Imaging provides. And it's sort of that partnership of we're not expecting it to be perfect, but is it better than we have today? There is no perfect solution, but does it improve our current workflow? And so we'll be very interested of when we go live with patients synopsis of does this help? Is this better than what we have today? And the focus then becomes partnering with Watson Health Imaging is how do we make it better for ourselves? How do we make it better for you? I think we're a large health organization and typically we're not an academic or heavy research institution, but we take care of a lot of patients. And if we can work together, I think we'll find solutions. It's really that triple aim of how to provide better care, at cheaper costs, with a better experience. And that's what we're all after. And what's your version of patient, the current version of patients synopsis, and okay does it work for us? Well, even if it does, how do we make it better? Or if it doesn't, how do we make it work? And I think if we work together, make it work for TriHealth, you can make it work at all your community-based health organizations. >> Yeah. So, John that brings me to, Dr. Huelsman mentioned a couple of things in terms of the outcomes. Lower costs, better patient experience, et cetera. I mean, generally for clients, how do you measure success? And then specifically with regard to TriHealth, what's that like? What's that part of the partnership? >> Yes, specifically with TriHealth, the measure of success will be when Dr. Huelsman is able to call and be a super reference for us, and have these tools working to his satisfaction. And when he's been able to give us great input from the customer side, to help improve the science side of it. So today he's able to launch his epic EMR in context and he has to dig through the data, looking for those valuable nuggets and with using natural language processing, when he has patients synopsis, that will all be done for him. He'll be able to pull up the study, a CT of the head for instance and he'll be able to get those nuggets of information using natural language processing that Watson services and get the valuable insights without spending five or 10 minutes interrogating the EMR. So we look forward to those benefits for him, from the data analytics side, but then we also look forward to in the future, delivering other AI for the imaging side, to help him find the slices of interest and the defects that are in that particular study. So whether that's with our partner AI solutions or as we bring care advisers to market. So we look forward to his input on those also. >> Can you comment on that Dr. Huelsman? I would imagine that you would be really looking forward to that vision that John just laid out, as well as other practitioners in your organization. Maybe you could talk about that, is that sort of within your reach? What can you tell us? >> Well, absolutely. That was sort of the shared vision and relationship that we hope for and sort of have that shared outlook is we have all this data, how do we analyze it to improve, provide better care cheaper? And there's no way to do that without you harnessing technology. And IBM has been on the cutting edge of technology for my lifetime. And so it's very exciting to have a partnership with WHI and IBM. There's a history, there's a depth. And so how do we work together to advance, because we want the same things. What impressed me was sure, radiology and AI has been in the news and been hyped and some think over-hyped, and what have you. Everyone's after that Holy grail. But it's that sense of you have the engineers that you talk to, but there is an understanding that don't design the system for the engineers, design it for the end user. Design it for the radiologist. Talk to the end user, because it can be the greatest tool in the world, but I can tell you as a radiologist, if it interrupts my workflow, if it interrupts my search pattern for looking at images, it doesn't help me and radiologists won't use it. And so just having a great algorithm won't help. It is how do you present it to the end user? How do I access it? How can I easily toggle on and off, or do I have to minimize and maximize, and log into a different system. We talked earlier is one throat to choke, or one vendor to hug, we only want one interface. Radiologists and users just want to look at their... They have the radiology viewer, they have their PACS, we look at it all day and you don't want to minimize that and bring up something else, you want to keep interacting with what you're used to. And the mouse buttons do the same thing, it's a mouse click away. And that's what the people at Watson Health Imaging that we've interacted with, they get it. They understand that's what a radiologist would want. They want to continue interacting with their PACS, not with a third vendor or another program or something else. >> I love that. That ton of outside in thinking, starting with the radiologist, back to the engineer, not the reverse. I think that's something that IBM, and I've been watching IBM for a long time, it's something that IBM has brought to the table with its deep industry expertise. I maybe have some other questions, but John I wanted to give you an opportunity. Is there anything that you would like to ask Dr. Huelsman that maybe I haven't touched on yet? >> Yeah. Being back on your account this year, what do you see as a success? What would you count as a success at the end of 2021, if we can deliver this year for you? >> The success would be say, at the end of the year, we've got the heavy hitters, all stored on the archive. Do we pick up all the little, we've got the low hanging fruit, now can we go after the line placement imaging and the arthroscopy and dioscomy, and all those smaller volume in pickups, that we truly get all of our imaging stored on that archive. And then the even larger piece is then do we start using the data on the archive with some cognitive solution? I would love to successfully implement, whether it's patient synopsis or one of the care advisors, that we start using sort of the analytics, the machine learning, some AI component that we successfully implement and maybe share good ideas with you. And sure we intend to go live with patient synopsis next month. I would love it by the end of the year, if the version that we're using patients synopsis and we find it helpful. And the version we use is better than what we went live with next month, because of feedback that we're able to give you. >> Great we looked forward to working with you on that. I guess, personally, with the pandemic in 2020, what have you become, I guess in 2020 that maybe you weren't a year ago before the pandemic, just out of curiosity? >> I'm not sure if we're anything different. A mantra that we've used in the department of radiology at TriHealth for a decade, "Improved service become more adaptable." And we're a service industry, so of course we want to improve service, but be adaptable, become more adaptable. And COVID certainly emphasize that need to be adaptable, to be flexible and the better tools we have. It was great early in the COVID when we had the shutdowns, we found ourselves, we have way more radiologists than we had studies that needed interpreted. So we were flexible all often and be home more. Well, the referring physicians don't know like, well is Dr. Huelsman working today? We don't expect them to look up our schedules. If I get a page that, Hey, can you take a look at this? It was great that at that time I didn't have a home workstation, but I had iConnect access. Before there was no way for me to access the images without getting on a VPN and logging on, it takes 10, 15 minutes before I'm able. Instead I could answer the phone, and I'm not going to say, "Oh, I'm sorry, I'm not at the hospital day, call this number someone else will help you." I have my iPad, go to ica.trihealth.com logged on, I'm looking at the images two minutes later. And so the ease of use, the flexibility, it helped us become adaptable. And I anticipate with we're upgrading the radiology viewer and the iConnect access next month as well, to try to educate our referring physicians, of sort of the image sharing capabilities within that next version of our viewer. Because telehealth has become like everywhere else. It's become much more important at TriHealth during this pandemic. And I think it will be a very big satisfier for both referring physicians and patients, that those image sharing capabilities, to be able to look at the same image, see the annotation that either the radiologist or the referring physician, oncologist, whoever is wanting to share images with the patient and the patient's family, to have multiple parties on at the same time. It will be very good. >> With the new tools that you have for working from home with your full workstation, are you as efficient reading at home? >> Yes. >> And having full access to the PACS as in-house? >> Absolutely. >> That's great to hear. Have you been able to take advantage of using any of the collaboration tools within iConnect, to collaborate with a referring physician, where he can see your pointer and you can see his, or is that something we need to get working? >> Hopefully if you ask me that a year from now, the answer will be yes. >> So does that exit a radiologist? Does that help a radiologist communicate with a referring physician? Or do you feel that that's going to be a- >> Absolutely. We still have our old school physicians that we love who come to the reading room, who come to the department of radiology and go over studies together. But it's dwindling, it's becoming fewer and fewer as certain individuals retire. And it's just different. But the more direct interaction we can have with referring physicians, the better information they can give us. And the more we're interacting directly, the better we are. And so I get it, they're busy, they don't want to, they may not be at the hospital. They're seeing patients at an outpatient clinic and a radiologist isn't even there, that's where that technology piece. This is how we live. We're an instantaneous society. We live through our phone and so great it's like a FaceTime capability. If you want to maintain those personal relationships, we're learning we can't rely on the orthopedist or whomever, whatever referring physician to stop by our reading room, our department. We need to make ourselves available to them and make it convenient. >> That market that you working in Cincinnati, we have a luxury of having quite a few customers with our iConnect solutions. There's been some talk between the multiple parties, of potentially being able to look across the other sites and using that common tool, but being able to query the other archives. Is that something that you'd in favor of supporting and think would add value so that the clinicians can see the longitudinal record? >> Yes And we already have that ability of we can view care everywhere in our EMR. So we don't have the images right away, but we can see other reports. Again, it's not convenient. It's not a click away, but it's two, three, four clicks away. But if I see, if it's one of my search patterns of I just worked the overnight shift last week and then you get something through the ER and there's no comparisons, and it's an abnormal chest CT. Well, I look in Care Everywhere. Oh, they had a chest CT at a different place in the city a year ago, and I can see the report. And so then at that time I can request, and it can take an hour or so, but look back and the images will be accessible to me. But so how do we improve on that? Is to make the images, that I don't have to wait an hour for the images. If we have image sharing among your organizations that can be much quicker, would be a big win. >> As you read in your new environment, do you swivel your chair and still read out of any other specialty systems, for any types of studies today? >> No, and that was a huge win. We used to have a separate viewing system for mammography and we were caught like there were dedicated viewing stations. And so even though we're a system, the radiologist working at this hospital, had to read the mammograms taken at that hospital. And one at the other hospital could only read the ones taken at that hospital. And you couldn't share the workload if it was heavy at one site and light at the other. Well, now it's all viewed through the radiology viewer if you merge PACS, in not just general radiology, but impressed. It has been so much better world that the workflow is so much better, that we can share the work list and be much more efficient. >> Do you feel that in your, your new world, that you're able to have less cherry picking between the group, I guess? Do you feel like there's less infighting or that the exams are being split up evenly through the work list? Or are you guys using some sort of assignment? >> No. And I'm curious with our next version of PACS, the next version of merge packs of 008. I forget which particular >> John: 008. >> It's 008, yeah. I know there's the feature of a smart work list to distribute the exams. Currently, we just have one. It's better than what we have before. It's one large list. We've subdivided, teased out some things that not all of the radiologist read of like MSK and cardiac and it makes it more convenient. But currently it is the radiologist choose what study they're going to open next. To me how I personally attack the list is I don't look at the list. Some radiologists can spend more time choosing what they're going to read next than they do reading. (chuckles) And so if you don't even look, and so the feature I love is just I don't want to take my eyes off my main viewer. And I don't want to swivel my chair. I don't want to turn my head to look at the list, I want everything right in front of me. And so currently the way you can use it is I never look at the list. I just use the keyboard shortcuts of, okay, well I'm done with that study. I mark it, there's one button I click on my mouse that marks it dictated, closes it and brings up the next study on the list. >> Hey guys, I got to jump in. We're running up against the clock, but John if you've got any final thoughts or Dr. Huelsman, please. >> Sure. Dr. Huelsman, I guess any homework for me? What are the top two or three things I can help you with in 2021 to be successful? >> Keep us informed of what you're working on, of what's available now. What's coming next, and how soon is it available? And you let us see those things? And we'll give you a feedback of hey, this is great. And we'll try to identify things, if you haven't thought of them, hey, this would be very helpful. >> Gents, great conversation. Gosh we could go on for another 45 minutes. And John you really have a great knowledge of the industry. And Dr. Huelsman, thanks so much for coming on. Appreciate it. >> Thank you. >> You're welcome >> And thanks for spending some time with us. You're watching "Client Conversations" with IBM Watson Health.

>> Announcer: From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a CUBE conversation. (soft music) >> Hi, Lisa Martin, with theCUBE here, talking with Caitlin Gordon, the VP of Product Marketing, at Dell technologies. Caitlin how are you? It's great to see you. >> I'm doing very well Lisa, thank you so much for having me. >> Nice to see you back on theCUBE. So lots of stuff going on in the news the last few months or so. A lot of stuff with respect to Cyber Recovery, Cyber Security, but talk to us about what's happening in the Purpose-Built Appliance Backup Appliance market. This market is growing. What's happening there, and talk to me about Dell's leadership role. >> Yeah, we've kind of come full circle. I've been in the data protection space for a while and I would say that, you know now we're looking at this as a $4 billion industry and security and protection has bubbled backup to the top of the list from an IT perspective. And one of the simplest, fastest ways to improve data protection is leveraging Backup Appliances. And there's really two segments within that. There's what I'll refer to as the target appliances and the integrated appliances. And we actually have had leadership in this space, since really the beginning. You know 50 cents of every dollar in this market is spent on Dell equipment. Where we see massive growth is really in that integrated appliance market. And those integrated appliances really simplify the deployment of not only the protection storage, but the protection software. So you can modernize your data protection, get much faster recovery, faster backups, as well as really get a smaller footprint, better efficiency, all in one single solution. And that's really where we've seen a lot of growth in the appliance market recently. >> Yeah. So as that, an integrated appliance market is growing twice as fast as targeted, give us a picture. You mentioned a few things, but kind of dig deeper into why customers are opting more and more for the integrated approach. >> Yeah that comes back to kind of a lot of the trends we see in IT overall. It's simplicity. It's ease of, how can you get to a better solution, a better outcome faster. And when it comes to integrated data protection appliances, it really it takes the guesswork out of it. You know, you have software and hardware, that's optimized to work together. You're really quick and easy to deploy, really simple to manage, 'cause it's all fully integrated and you get to a solution where you can get things like 65 one data reduction, get a very small footprint, get really fast improvements to not only backups, but probably even more importantly to recovery, get instant access to that data. And you really are able to with one purchase, transform all of your data protection. Now there's still a lot of great uses for target appliances as well of better flexibility. But, we've seen this overall you've seen this Lisa, every trend in probably IT and life, right? Simplicity. How can you get a faster, better answer? And integrated appliances really lean into that. It's as similar to what we see in the hyperconverged space, kind of in the primary storage and compute side of things. >> Yeah, I think we all want faster, simpler, better in every walk of life. One of the things this year that, in all of that lack of simplification, the complexity that we're living in that we've seen, is the rise of ransomware. It's not only on the rise, it's getting more personal. We've seen, you know, big companies, Garmin was attacked, one of the Cruise Lines was attacked, The New Zealand Stock Exchange, Facebook and Tik Tok were hacked. So we're starting to see so much more vulnerability and the ability of these hackers to expose more vulnerabilities. Have you seen that impacting your customers saying, "Hey, we need help here because now we have so many employees and devices, scattered." >> Yeah, unfortunately we have. You know, we've been talking about Ransomware Protection, Cyber Resiliency, Cyber Recovery with our customers for quite a number of years. And, now it's not a niche conversation just with financial institutions, it's a conversation with all of our customers. 'Cause either they've felt it or they've seen their competitors feel it and they need to protect themselves. So it has really become a conversation but it's not only our specialty sellers, but all of our sellers are having with our customers. And, it's really about not only being able to protect against them, which is an important part, but also recover from them. And that's really what our PowerProtect Cyber Recovery Solution is all about. And the exciting thing for us is that we actually have recently become the first Cyber Recovery Solution endorsed by Sheltered Harbor. Which really gives you an idea of the level of investment that we've made to provide that secure, automated air gap solution to give our customers that peace of mind. Because unfortunately this is becoming table stakes for any data protection out there today. >> Well, and as more and more, we see every company either becoming a data company or needing to become a data company to not just survive these times, but become successful as time goes on. To a point, it's one thing about protecting the data, but the actual need is to recover it should anything happen. Tell us a little bit more about Sheltered Harbor and what you guys were the first there to receive? Tell me a little bit more about that. >> Yeah, absolutely. Okay a little bit more on overall our solution and Sheltered Harbor is actually a consortium of organizations, primarily financial institutions that have really come together to define the standards, of what we need or Cyber Resiliency for Cyber Recovery. And for us with PowerProtect Cyber Recovery, we've worked closely with that organization, to meet those standards. And with that work and with that actual deploying in with one of our customers, we were able to become the first Cyber Recovery Solution endorsed by Sheltered Harbor to meet their standards there. And what's an important about our solution is that it's both that automated air-gapped solution for the data isolation, which is a part of it. But it's also, we have the CyberSense analytics and forensic tools that give you the ability to discover, to diagnose and to remediate against these attacks. So it gives you both sides of protecting that data air-gapping it, but also being able to intelligently discover and remediate against those attacks, if they do indeed happen. >> As VP of Product Marketing, I'm sure you're with customers often these days virtually. When you're having customer conversations, as you were singing out data protection and being able to recover and remediate, should anything like a ransomware attack happen, that's business critical. That's, you know, lifeline kind of stuff we're talking about. Have you seen the conversations within customer organizations shifts or is this now a board level or a C-level conversation in terms of data protection? >> Yeah, it's interesting. It's become a more frequent conversation. The people involved, are different. It's not just the backup administrators that are involved, it's really about the overall compliance strategy, the CSOs that are involved here. And it's becoming a corporate mandate as it really unfortunately needs to be at this point. So it's coming up more frequently, but also the types of people involved in that conversation have really changed the types of things we're having to talk about and build solutions for. So it's really changed that dynamic for us. And it's been great to really be on the front lines of that with our customers. You know, it started with those financial institutions and now it's really commonplace, to talk about this with everyone. >> So let's talk customers. Give us an example or two of some customers that are leveraging this new technology that are really achieving like the big deduplication ratio that you talked about, but also enabling their business to move forward. >> Yeah. One of my favorite ones for a couple of reasons I'll confess is, World Candy. Actually there are a World Corporation, but to me, they're a candy company. They actually make some chocolate out of Pennsylvania one of my favorites, chocolate covered pretzels. And they're a great example, right? 'Cause they're certainly not an IT specialty organization. They're trying to contract manufactured candy and they want to get things done as efficiently as possible. So they were looking a solution to overall modernize, their overall IT and that came with the combination of an Integrated Data Protection Appliance, as well as VXRail. And by implementing that, they were able to reduce their backup times from running overnight all night, to just two hours. They were able to get dedupe ratios of a 12O to one, 99.2% reduction, which is just incredible. And they were able to reduce their physical server footprint by 60%. So you can just imagine with an organization like this, that needs to run things as efficiently, as simply, as quickly as possible, how transformational that is. And, probably one of the other things that we find out of customers like this is, it's really about finding them a partner that can solve all of their problems in one place. And for data protection that's certainly one of the biggest things for PowerProtect is we now have a one-stop shop appliances software for all your data protection needs, large and small. And my favorite thing is actually our quote from this customer which is, he calls it a perfect partnership and that they have a single hand to high five. And we love to get those high fives from our customer and we really like to be that partner for them and to help them solve these challenges really no matter where their data is or what their challenges are. >> I like that a single can for a virtual high five. Speaking of partners, what's the channel play here? >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean, for us, Dell Technology is overall channel partners are absolutely critical and in the data protection space, probably even more so. So channel partners are a huge part of our go-to-market. And one of the reason that channel partners really like to work with us, with Dell technologies on the data protection side, is because of the breadth of that portfolio. And now with our most recent enhancements on the appliance side, you now have a full PowerProtect portfolio. Target appliances, integrated appliances, physical, virtual, as well as modern data protection software with PowerProtect data manager. And for our partners, and for us, it's so important that they can have one vendor to offer all of these solutions because we know that our customer's challenges are complex, they're diverse, their data sets are diverse and they need to be able to partner with someone, leverage us as a vendor, leverage our partners, leveraging us as a vendor to really give our customers that answer. And that could be very different needs. They have traditional applications, they have new modern applications in Kubernetes and the growth of, and the importance of those types of applications. Our partners don't want and our customers don't want to have to deal with multiple vendors. Multiple vendors actually can increase risk, increase costs. They want to keep that simple, efficient. And that's why partnering with us, with Dell Technologies, why our channel partners really find us to be such a critical vendor to work with on the data protection side. >> So you've shared some impressive stats about what the technology is able to deliver. You gave us the great World Candy company example in terms of the things I heard a big workforce productivity there, they've got big deduplication there. They're able to sounds like reduce their on-prem footprint. From an economic value perspective, help us understand what the economic value of the DP series and even maybe feedback from the analyst community. >> Yeah, we've actually got a recent study which I'd encourage you guys to go read and I will just kind of give you the Cliffs Notes version of it. Which shows you the advantages of leveraging Dell Technologies portfolio for data protection. You can have your cost to protect as low as 1 cent per gigabyte per month, which is impressive. And that's that efficiency that you can get with PowerProtect. It's a reduction in the administration costs for data reduction of 22%, a reduction of 84% in your Cloud resources and services. We all know that people have moved to Public Cloud and probably one of the biggest concerns is the cost of that. By implementing the right data protection solutions, leveraging our in-cloud backup and protection, you can actually significantly reduce that because of the way that we've implemented it. And overall, you can't argue with anything that reduces costs by 98%. So you can reduce your storage resource costs by 98% by leveraging the PowerProtect portfolio. And again, it's a recent ESG study, which you can find on our website and read more about that study and the economic elements that lead into that. But you can just see the dramatic impact that can have, not only are you protecting your most valuable asset of data, but you're doing so in a way that saves the company money, and time and resources. And we all know that's never been more critical than ever. >> Those are very impressive, but compelling stats. Last question, talking about the three waves that we know Dell technologies is writing, we've got VMware, Cloud, Cyber Recovery, give us a flavor of the launch and the news and the new capabilities for this one-stop shop with perspective of what's happening in Cyber Recovery today. >> Yeah, so we've got enhancements on all fronts. So we, let me go in order there. So we've got on the Cloud front our PowerProtect data manager, which we've talked about a lot this year. We continued to really enhance that. Some recent enhancements, the ability to deploy that in Azure and AWS Cloud, to be able to do in-Cloud data protection. On the VMware side as we talked about just recently at VMworld, we've got new integrations with Storage Based Policy Management to really simplify and automate protection for the Vadmins as well as protection administrators. The ability to support, real mission critical applications and VMs, that are something we're working on to be able to more intelligently protect those VMs that have become more challenging to protect in traditional methods as well as integration with protect VCF. And then lastly, I think we've covered a bit today is certainly on that Cyber Recovery, Cyber Resiliency solution. First one to be endorsed by Sheltered Harbor in providing that air gap solution, as well as that ability to discover to remediate from those attacks. And you can kind of get a sense of, where we're really focused on. Those are our big three areas in both our appliance as well as our software portfolio really focused on simplifying that for our customers. >> Well Caitlin, we thank you for joining us as per what theCUBE has seen for many years with Dell Technologies. Lots of innovation, continued innovation. We thank you so much for joining us on theCUBE today. >> Thanks so much for having me. It was great to be here, Lisa. >> Excellent. With Caitlin Gordon, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE. (soft music)