(upbeat electronic music) >> Narrator: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a CUBE conversation! >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman, your host for Cloud Native Insight. When we launched this series, one of the things we wanted to talk about was that we're not just using cloud as a destination, but really enabling new ways of thinking, being able to use the innovations underneath the cloud, and that if you use services in the cloud, that you're not necessarily locked into a solution or can't move forward. And that's why I'm really excited to help welcome to the program, I have the co-founders of Vendia. First we have Dr. Tim Wagner, he is the co-founder and CEO of the company, as well as generally known in the industry as the father of Serverless from the AWS Lambda, and his co-founder, Shruthi Rao, she is the chief business officer at Vendia, also came from AWS where she worked on blockchain solutions. Tim, Shruthi, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thanks for having us in here, Stu. Great to join the show. >> All right, so Shruthi, actually if we could start with you because before we get into Vendia, coming out of stealth, you know, really interesting technology space, you and Tim both learned a lot from working with customers in your previous jobs, why don't we start from you. Block chain of course had a lot of learnings, a lot of things that people don't understand about what it is and what it isn't, so give us a little bit about what you've learned and how that lead towards what you and Tim and the team are doing with Vendia. >> Yeah, absolutely, Stu! One, the most important thing that we've all heard of was this great gravitational pull towards blockchain in 2018 and 2019. Well, I was one of the founders and early adopters of blockchain from Bitcoin and Ethereum space, all the way back from 2011 and onwards. And at AWS I started the Amazon Managed Blockchain and launched Quantum Ledger Database, two services in the block chain category. What I learned there was, no surprise, there was a gold rush to blockchain from many customers. We, I personally talked to over 1,092 customers when I ran Amazon Managed Blockchain for the last two years. And I found that customers were looking at solving this dispersed data problem. Most of my customers had invested in IoT and edge devices, and these devices were gathering massive amounts of data, and on the flip side they also had invested quite a bit of effort in AI and ML and analytics to crunch this data, give them intelligence. But guess what, this data existed in multiple parties, in multiple clouds, in multiple technology stacks, and they needed a mechanism to get this data from wherever they were into one place so they could the AI, ML, analytics investment, and they wanted all of this to be done in real time, and to gravitated towards blockchain. But blockchain had quite a bit of limitations, it was not scalable, it didn't work with the existing stack that you had. It forced enterprises to adopt this new technology and entirely new type of infrastructure. It didn't work cross-cloud unless you hired expensive consultants or did it yourself, and required these specialized developers. For all of these reasons, we've seen many POCs, majority of POCs just dying on the vine and not ever reaching the production potential. So, that is when I realized that what the problem to be solved was not a trust problem, the problem was dispersed data in multiple clouds and multiple stacks problem. Sometimes multiple parties, even, problem. And that's when Tim and I started talking about, about how can we bring all of the nascent qualities of Lambda and Serverless and use all of the features of blockchain and build something together? And he has an interesting story on his own, right. >> Yeah. Yeah, Shruthi, if I could, I'd like to get a little bit of that. So, first of all for our audience, if you're watching this on the minute, probably want to hit pause, you know, go search Tim, go watch a video, read his Medium post, about the past, present, and future of Serverless. But Tim, I'm excited. You and I have talked in the past, but finally getting you on theCUBE program. >> Yeah! >> You know, I've looked through my career, and my background is infrastructure, and the role of infrastructure we know is always just to support the applications and the data that run business, that's what is important! Even when you talk about cloud, it is the applications, you know, the code, and the data that are important. So, it's not that, you know, okay I've got near infinite compute capacity, it's the new things that I can do with it. That's a comment I heard in one of your sessions. You talked about one of the most fascinating things about Serverless was just the new creativity that it inspired people to do, and I loved it wasn't just unlocking developers to say, okay I have new ways to write things, but even people that weren't traditional coders, like lots of people in marketing that were like, "I can start with this and build something new." So, I guess the question I have for you is, you know we had this idea of Platform as a Service, or even when things like containers launched, it was, we were trying to get close to that atomic unit of the application, and often it was talked about, well, do I want it for portability? Is it for ease of use? So, you've been wrangling and looking at this (Tim laughing) from a lot of different ways. So, is that as a starting point, you know, what did you see the last few years with Lambda, and you know, help connect this up to where Shruthi just left off her bit of the story. >> Absolutely. You know, the great story, the great success of the cloud is this elimination of undifferentiated heavy lifting, you know, from getting rid of having to build out a data center, to all the complexity of managing hardware. And that first wave of cloud adoption was just phenomenally successful at that. But as you say, the real thing businesses wrestle with are applications, right? It's ultimately about the business solution, not the hardware and software on which it runs. So, the very first time I sat down with Andy Jassy to talk about what eventually become Lambda, you know, one of the things I said was, look, if we want to get 10x the number of people to come and, you know, and be in the cloud and be successful it has to be 10 times simpler than it is today. You know, if step one is hire an amazing team of distributed engineers to turn a server into a full tolerance, scalable, reliable business solution, now that's going to be fundamentally limiting. We have to find a way to put that in a box, give that capability, you know, to people, without having them go hire that and build that out in the first place. And so that kind of started this journey for, for compute, we're trying to solve the problem of making compute as easy to use as possible. You know, take some code, as you said, even if you're not a diehard programmer or backend engineer, maybe you're just a full-stack engineer who loves working on the front-end, but the backend isn't your focus, turn that into something that is as scalable, as robust, as secure as somebody who has spent their entire career working on that. And that was the promise of Serverless, you know, outside of the specifics of any one cloud. Now, the challenge of course when you talk to customers, you know, is that you always heard the same two considerations. One is, I love the idea of Lamdba, but it's AWS, maybe I have multiple departments or business partners, or need to kind of work on multiple clouds. The other challenge is fantastic for compute, what about data? You know, you've kind of left me with, you're giving me sort of half the solution, you've made my compute super easy to use, can you make my data equally easy to use? And so you know, obviously the part of the genesis of Vendia is going and tackling those pieces of this, giving all that promise and ease of use of Serverless, now with a model for replicated state and data, and one that can cross accounts, machines, departments, clouds, companies, as easily as it scales on a single cloud today. >> Okay, so you covered quite a bit of ground there Tim, if you could just unpack that a little bit, because you're talking about state, cutting across environments. What is it that Vendia is bringing, how does that tie into solutions like, you know, Lamdba as you mentioned, but other clouds or even potentially on premises solutions? So, what is, you know, the IP, the code, the solution that Vendia's offering? >> Happy to! So, let's start with the customer problem here. The thing that every enterprise, every company, frankly, wrestles with is in the modern world they're producing more data than ever, IMT, digital journeys, you know, mobile, edge devices. More data coming in than ever before, at the same time, more data getting consumed than ever before with deep analytics, supply chain optimization, AI, ML. So, even more consumers of ever more data. The challenge, of course, is that data isn't always inside a company's four walls. In fact, we've heard 80% or more of that data actually lives outside of a company's control. So, step one to doing something like AI, ML, isn't even just picking a product or selecting a technology, it's getting all of your data back together again, so that's the problem that we set out to solve with Vendia, and we realized that, you know, and kind of part of the genesis for the name here, you know, Vendia comes from Venn Diagram. So, part of that need to bring code and data together across companies, across tech stacks, means the ability to solve some of these long-standing challenges. And we looked at the two sort of big movements out there. Two of them, you know, we've obviously both been involved in, one of them was Serverless, which amazing ability to scale, but single account, single cloud, single company. The other one is blockchain and distributed ledgers, manages to run more across parties, across clouds, across tech stacks, but doesn't have a great mechanism for scalability, it's really a single box deployment model, and obviously there are a lot of limitations with that. So, our technology, and kind of our insight and breakthrough here was bringing those two things together by solving the problems in each of them with the best parts of the other. So, reimagine the blockchain as a cloud data implementation built entirely out of Serverless components that have all of the scale, the cost efficiencies, the high utilization, like all of the ease of deployment that something like Lambda has today, and at the same time, you know, bring state to Serverless. Give things like Lambda and the equivalent of other clouds a simple, easy, built-in model so that applications can have multicloud, multi-account state at all times, rather than turning that into a complicated DIY project. So, that was our insight here, you know and frankly where a lot of the interesting technology for us is in turning those centralized services, a centralized version of Serverless Compute or Serverless Database into a multi-account, multicloud experience. And so that's where we spent a lot of time and energy trying to build something that gives customers a great experience. >> Yeah, so I've got plenty of background in customers that, you know, have the "information silos", if you will, so we know, when the unstructured data, you know so much of it is not searchable, I can't leverage it. Shruthi, but maybe it might make sense, you know, what is, would you say some of the top things some of your early customers are saying? You know, I have this pain point, that's pointing me in your direction, what was leading them to you? And how does the solution help them solve that problem? >> Yeah, absolutely! One of our design partners, our lead design partners is this automotive company, they're a premier automotive company, they want, their end goal is to track car parts for warranty recall issues. So, they want to track every single part that goes into a particular car, so they're about 30 to 35,000 parts in each of these cars, and then all the way from manufacturing floor to when the car is sold, and when that particular part is replaced eventually, towards the end of the lifecycle of that part. So for this, they have put together a small test group of their partners, a couple of the parts manufacturers, they're second care partners, National Highway Safety Administration is part of this group, also a couple of dealers and service centers. Now, if you just look at this group of partners, you will see some of these parties have high technology, technology backgrounds, just like the auto manufacturers themselves or the part manufacturers. Low modality or low IT-competency partners such as the service centers, for them desktop PCs are literally the IT competency, and so does the service centers. Now, most of, majority of these are on multiple clouds. This particular auto customer is on AWS and manufactures on Azure, another one is on GCP. Now, they all have to share these large files between each other, making sure that there are some transparency and business rules applicable. For example, two partners who make the same parts or similar parts cannot see each other's data. Most of the participants cannot see the PII data that are not applicable, only the service center can see that. National Highway Safety Administration has read access, not write access. A lot of that needed to be done, and their alternatives before they started using Vendia was either use point-to-point APIs, which was very expensive, very cumbersome, it works for a finite small set of parties, it does not scale, as in when you add more participants into this particular network. And the second option for them was blockchain, which they did use, and used Hyperledger Fabric, they used Ethereum Private to see how this works, but the scalability, with Ethereum Private, it's about 14 to 15 transactions per second, with Hyperledger Fabric it taps out at 100, or 150 on a good day, transaction through, but it's not just useful. All of these are always-on systems, they're not Serverless, so just provisioning capacity, our customers said it took them two to three weeks per participant. So, it's just not a scalable solution. With Vendia, what we delivered to them was this virtual data lake, where the sources of this data are on multiple clouds, are on multiple accounts owned by multiple parties, but all of that data is shared on a virtual data lake with all of the permissions, with all of the logging, with all of the security, PII, and compliance. Now, this particular auto manufacturer and the National Highway Safety Administration can run their ML algorithms to gain intelligence off of it, and start to understand patterns, so when certain parts go bad, or what's the propensity of a certain manufacturing unit producing faulty parts, and so on, and so forth. This really shows you this concept of unstructured data being shared between parties that are not, you know, connected with each other, when there are data silos. But I'd love to follow this up with another example of, you know, the democratization, democratization is very important to Vendia. When Tim launched Lambda and founded the AWS Serverless movement as a whole, and at AWS, one thing, very important thing happened, it lowered the barrier to entry for a new wave of businesses that could just experiment, try out new things, if it failed, they scrap it, if it worked, they could scale it out. And that was possible because of the entry point, because of the paper used, and the architecture itself, and we are, our vision and mission for Vendia is that Vendia fuels the next generation of multi-party connected distributed applications. My second design partner is actually a non-profit that, in the animal welfare industry. Their mission is to maintain a no-kill for dogs and cats in the United States. And the number one reason for over populations of dogs and cats in the shelters is dogs lost, dogs and cats lost during natural disasters, like the hurricane season. And when that happens, and when, let's say your dogs get lost, and you want to find a dog, the ID or the chip-reading is not reliable, they want to search this through pictures. But we also know that if you look at a picture of a dog, four people can come up with four different breed names, and this particular non-profit has 2,500 plus partners across the U.S., and they're all low to no IT modalities, some of them have higher IT competency, and a huge turnover because of volunteer employees. So, what we did for them was came up with a mechanism where they could connect with all 2,500 of these participants very easily in a very cost-effective way and get all of the pictures of all of the dogs in all these repositories into one data lake so they can run some kind of a dog facial recognition algorithm on it and identify where my lost dog is in minutes as opposed to days it used to take before. So, you see a very large customer with very sophisticated IT competency use this, also a non-profit being able to use this. And they were both able to get to this outcome in days, not months or years, as, blockchain, but just under a few days, so we're very excited about that. >> Thank you so much for the examples. All right, Tim, before we get to the end, I wonder if you could take us under the hood a little bit here. My understanding, the solution that you talk about, it's universal apps, or what you call "unis" -- >> Tim: Unis? (laughs) >> I believe, so if I saw that right, give me a little bit of compare and contrast, if you will. Obviously there's been a lot of interest in what Kubernetes has been doing. We've been watching closely, you know there's connections between what Kubernetes is doing and Serverless with the Knative project. When I saw the first video talking about Vendia, you said, "We're serverless, and we're containerless underneath." So, help us understand, because at, you know, a super high level, some of the multicloud and making things very flexible sound very similar. So you know, how is Vendia different, and why do you feel your architecture helps solve this really challenging problem? >> Sure, sure, awesome! You know, look, one of the tenets that we had here was that things have to be as easy as possible for customers, and if you think about the way somebody walks up today to an existing database system, right? They say, "Look, I've got a schema, I know the shape of my data." And a few minutes later I can get a production database, now it's single user, single cloud, single consumer there, but it's a very fast, simple process that doesn't require having code, hiring a team, et cetera, and we wanted Vendia to work the same way. Somebody can walk up with a JSON schema, hand it to us, five minutes later they have a database, only now it's a multiparty database that's decentralized, so runs across multiple platforms, multiple clouds, you know, multiple technology stacks instead of being single user. So, that's kind of goal one, is like make that as easy to use as possible. The other key tenet though is we don't want to be the least common denominator of the cloud. One of the challenges with saying everyone's going to deploy their own servers, they're going to run all their own software, they're going to build, you know, they're all going to co-deploy a Kubernetes cluster, one of the challenges with that is that, as Shruthi was saying, first, anyone for whom that's a challenge, if you don't have a whole IT department wrapped around you that's a difficult proposition to get started on no matter how amazing that technology might be. The other challenge with it though is that it locks you out, sort of the universe of a lock-in process, right, is the lock-out process. It locks you out of some of the best and brightest things the public cloud providers have come up with, and we wanted to empower customers, you know, to pick the best degree. Maybe they want to go use IBM Watson, maybe they want to use a database on Google, and at the same time they want to ingest IoT on AWS, and they wanted all to work together, and want all of that to be seamless, not something where they have to recreate an experience over, and over, and over again on three different clouds. So, that was our goal here in producing this. What we designed as an architecture was decentralized data storage at the core of it. So, think about all the precepts you hear with blockchain, they're all there, they all just look different. So, we use a no SQL database to store data so that we can scale that easily. We still have a consensus algorithm, only now it's a high speed serverless and cloud function based mechanism. You know, instead of smart contracts, you write things in a cloud function like Lambda instead, so no more learning Solidity, now you can use any language you want. So, we changed how we think about that architecture, but many of those ideas about people, really excited about blockchain and its capabilities and the vision for the future are still alive and well, they've just been implemented in a way that's far more practical and effective for the enterprise. >> All right, so what environments can I use today for your solution, Shruthi talked about customers spanning across some of the cloud, so what's available kind of today, what's on the roadmap in the future? Will this include beyond, you know, maybe the top five or six hyper scalers? Can I do, does it just require Serverless underneath? So, will things that are in a customer's own data center eventually support that. >> Absolutely. So, what we're doing right now is having people sign up for our preview release, so in the next few weeks, we're going to start turning that on for early access to developers. That'll be, the early access program, will be multi-account, focused on AWS, and then end of summer, well be doing our GA release, which will be multicloud, so we'll actually be able to operate across multiple clouds, multiple cloud services, on different platforms. But even from day one, we'll have API support in there. So, if you got a service, could even be running on a mainframe, could be on-prem, if it's API based you can still interact with the data, and still get the benefits of the system. So, developers, please start signing up, you can go find more information on vendia.net, and we're really looking forward to getting some of that early feedback and hear more from the people that we're the most excited to have start building these projects. >> Excellent, what a great call to action to get the developers and users in there. Shruthi, if you could just give us the last bit, you know, the thing that's been fascinating, Tim, when I look at the Serverless movement, you know, I've talked to some amazing companies that were two or three people (Tim laughing) and out of their basement, and they created a business, and they're like, "Oh my gosh, I got VC funding, and it's usually sub $10,000,000. So, I look at your team, I'd heard, Tim, you're the primary coder on the team. (Tim laughing) And when it comes to the seed funding it's, you know, compared to many startups, it's a small number. So, Shruthi, give us a little bit if you could the speeds and feeds of the company, your funding, and any places that you're hiring. Yeah, we are definitely hiring, lets me start from there! (Tim laughing) We're hiring for developers, and we are also hiring for solution architects, so please go to vendia.net, we have all the roles listed there, we would love to hear from you! And the second one, funding, yes. Tim is our main developer and solutions architect here, and look, the Serverless movement really helped quite a few companies, including us, to build this, bring this to market in record speeds, and we're very thankful that Tim and AWS started taking the stands, you know back in 2014, 2013, to bring this to market and democratize this. I think when we brought this new concept to our investors, they saw what this could be. It's not an easy concept to understand in the first wave, but when you understand the problem space, you see that the opportunity is pretty endless. And I'll say this for our investors, on behalf of our investors, that they saw a real founder market-fit between us. We're literally the two people who have launched and ran businesses for both Serverless and blockchain at scale, so that's what they thought was very attractive to them, and then look, it's Tim and I, and we're looking to hire 8 to 10 folks, and I think we have gotten to a space where we're making a meaningful difference to the world, and we would love for more people to join us, join this movement and democratize this big dispersed data problem and solve for this. And help us create more meanings to the data that our customers and companies worldwide are creating. We're very excited, and we're very thankful for all of our investors to be deeply committed to us and having conviction on us. >> Well, Shruthi and Tim, first of all, congratulations -- >> Thank you, thank you. >> Absolutely looking forward to, you know, watching the progress going forward. Thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you, Stu, thank you. >> Thanks, Stu! >> All right, and definitely tune in to our regular conversations on Cloud Native Insights. I'm your host Stu Miniman, and looking forward to hearing more about your Cloud Native Insights! (upbeat electronic music)

(upbeat music) >> Hello and welcome back to theCUBE. We're here in Palo Alto, California. I'm your host, John Furrier with a special guest here in the studio. As part of our Cloud Native SecurityCon Coverage we had an opportunity to bring in Jon Turow who is the partner at Madrona Venture Partners formerly with AWS and to talk about machine learning, foundational models, and how the future of AI is going to be impacted by some of the innovation around what's going on in the industry. ChatGPT has taken the world by storm. A million downloads, fastest to the million downloads there. Before some were saying it's just a gimmick. Others saying it's a game changer. Jon's here to break it down, and great to have you on. Thanks for coming in. >> Thanks John. Glad to be here. >> Thanks for coming on. So first of all, I'm glad you're here. First of all, because two things. One, you were formerly with AWS, got a lot of experience running projects at AWS. Now a partner at Madrona, a great firm doing great deals, and they had this future at modern application kind of thesis. Now you are putting out some content recently around foundational models. You're deep into computer vision. You were the IoT general manager at AWS among other things, Greengrass. So you know a lot about data. You know a lot about some of this automation, some of the edge stuff. You've been in the middle of all these kind of areas that now seem to be the next wave coming. So I wanted to ask you what your thoughts are of how the machine learning and this new automation wave is coming in, this AI tools are coming out. Is it a platform? Is it going to be smarter? What feeds AI? What's your take on this whole foundational big movement into AI? What's your general reaction to all this? >> So, thanks, Jon, again for having me here. Really excited to talk about these things. AI has been coming for a long time. It's been kind of the next big thing. Always just over the horizon for quite some time. And we've seen really compelling applications in generations before and until now. Amazon and AWS have introduced a lot of them. My firm, Madrona Venture Group has invested in some of those early players as well. But what we're seeing now is something categorically different. That's really exciting and feels like a durable change. And I can try and explain what that is. We have these really large models that are useful in a general way. They can be applied to a lot of different tasks beyond the specific task that the designers envisioned. That makes them more flexible, that makes them more useful for building applications than what we've seen before. And so that, we can talk about the depths of it, but in a nutshell, that's why I think people are really excited. >> And I think one of the things that you wrote about that jumped out at me is that this seems to be this moment where there's been a multiple decades of nerds and computer scientists and programmers and data thinkers around waiting for AI to blossom. And it's like they're scratching that itch. Every year is going to be, and it's like the bottleneck's always been compute power. And we've seen other areas, genome sequencing, all kinds of high computation things where required high forms computing. But now there's no real bottleneck to compute. You got cloud. And so you're starting to see the emergence of a massive acceleration of where AI's been and where it needs to be going. Now, it's almost like it's got a reboot. It's almost a renaissance in the AI community with a whole nother macro environmental things happening. Cloud, younger generation, applications proliferate from mobile to cloud native. It's the perfect storm for this kind of moment to switch over. Am I overreading that? Is that right? >> You're right. And it's been cooking for a cycle or two. And let me try and explain why that is. We have cloud and AWS launch in whatever it was, 2006, and offered more compute to more people than really was possible before. Initially that was about taking existing applications and running them more easily in a bigger scale. But in that period of time what's also become possible is new kinds of computation that really weren't practical or even possible without that vast amount of compute. And so one result that came of that is something called the transformer AI model architecture. And Google came out with that, published a paper in 2017. And what that says is, with a transformer model you can actually train an arbitrarily large amount of data into a model, and see what happens. That's what Google demonstrated in 2017. The what happens is the really exciting part because when you do that, what you start to see, when models exceed a certain size that we had never really seen before all of a sudden they get what we call emerging capabilities of complex reasoning and reasoning outside a domain and reasoning with data. The kinds of things that people describe as spooky when they play with something like ChatGPT. That's the underlying term. We don't as an industry quite know why it happens or how it happens, but we can measure that it does. So cloud enables new kinds of math and science. New kinds of math and science allow new kinds of experimentation. And that experimentation has led to this new generation of models. >> So one of the debates we had on theCUBE at our Supercloud event last month was, what's the barriers to entry for say OpenAI, for instance? Obviously, I weighed in aggressively and said, "The barriers for getting into cloud are high because all the CapEx." And Howie Xu formerly VMware, now at ZScaler, he's an AI machine learning guy. He was like, "Well, you can spend $100 million and replicate it." I saw a quote that set up for 180,000 I can get this other package. What's the barriers to entry? Is ChatGPT or OpenAI, does it have sustainability? Is it easy to get into? What is the market like for AI? I mean, because a lot of entrepreneurs are jumping in. I mean, I just read a story today. San Francisco's got more inbound migration because of the AI action happening, Seattle's booming, Boston with MIT's been working on neural networks for generations. That's what we've found the answer. Get off the neural network, Boston jump on the AI bus. So there's total excitement for this. People are enthusiastic around this area. >> You can think of an iPhone versus Android tension that's happening today. In the iPhone world, there are proprietary models from OpenAI who you might consider as the leader. There's Cohere, there's AI21, there's Anthropic, Google's going to have their own, and a few others. These are proprietary models that developers can build on top of, get started really quickly. They're measured to have the highest accuracy and the highest performance today. That's the proprietary side. On the other side, there is an open source part of the world. These are a proliferation of model architectures that developers and practitioners can take off the shelf and train themselves. Typically found in Hugging face. What people seem to think is that the accuracy and performance of the open source models is something like 18 to 20 months behind the accuracy and performance of the proprietary models. But on the other hand, there's infinite flexibility for teams that are capable enough. So you're going to see teams choose sides based on whether they want speed or flexibility. >> That's interesting. And that brings up a point I was talking to a startup and the debate was, do you abstract away from the hardware and be software-defined or software-led on the AI side and let the hardware side just extremely accelerate on its own, 'cause it's flywheel? So again, back to proprietary, that's with hardware kind of bundled in, bolted on. Is it accelerator or is it bolted on or is it part of it? So to me, I think that the big struggle in understanding this is that which one will end up being right. I mean, is it a beta max versus VHS kind of thing going on? Or iPhone, Android, I mean iPhone makes a lot of sense, but if you're Apple, but is there an Apple moment in the machine learning? >> In proprietary models, here does seem to be a jump ball. That there's going to be a virtuous flywheel that emerges that, for example, all these excitement about ChatGPT. What's really exciting about it is it's really easy to use. The technology isn't so different from what we've seen before even from OpenAI. You mentioned a million users in a short period of time, all providing training data for OpenAI that makes their underlying models, their next generation even better. So it's not unreasonable to guess that there's going to be power laws that emerge on the proprietary side. What I think history has shown is that iPhone, Android, Windows, Linux, there seems to be gravity towards this yin and yang. And my guess, and what other people seem to think is going to be the case is that we're going to continue to see these two poles of AI. >> So let's get into the relationship with data because I've been emerging myself with ChatGPT, fascinated by the ease of use, yes, but also the fidelity of how you query it. And I felt like when I was doing writing SQL back in the eighties and nineties where SQL was emerging. You had to be really a guru at the SQL to get the answers you wanted. It seems like the querying into ChatGPT is a good thing if you know how to talk to it. Labeling whether your input is and it does a great job if you feed it right. If you ask a generic questions like Google. It's like a Google search. It gives you great format, sounds credible, but the facts are kind of wrong. >> That's right. >> That's where general consensus is coming on. So what does that mean? That means people are on one hand saying, "Ah, it's bullshit 'cause it's wrong." But I look at, I'm like, "Wow, that's that's compelling." 'Cause if you feed it the right data, so now we're in the data modeling here, so the role of data's going to be critical. Is there a data operating system emerging? Because if this thing continues to go the way it's going you can almost imagine as you would look at companies to invest in. Who's going to be right on this? What's going to scale? What's sustainable? What could build a durable company? It might not look what like what people think it is. I mean, I remember when Google started everyone thought it was the worst search engine because it wasn't a portal. But it was the best organic search on the planet became successful. So I'm trying to figure out like, okay, how do you read this? How do you read the tea leaves? >> Yeah. There are a few different ways that companies can differentiate themselves. Teams with galactic capabilities to take an open source model and then change the architecture and retrain and go down to the silicon. They can do things that might not have been possible for other teams to do. There's a company that that we're proud to be investors in called RunwayML that provides video accelerated, sorry, AI accelerated video editing capabilities. They were used in everything, everywhere all at once and some others. In order to build RunwayML, they needed a vision of what the future was going to look like and they needed to make deep contributions to the science that was going to enable all that. But not every team has those capabilities, maybe nor should they. So as far as how other teams are going to differentiate there's a couple of things that they can do. One is called prompt engineering where they shape on behalf of their own users exactly how the prompt to get fed to the underlying model. It's not clear whether that's going to be a durable problem or whether like Google, we consumers are going to start to get more intuitive about this. That's one. The second is what's called information retrieval. How can I get information about the world outside, information from a database or a data store or whatever service into these models so they can reason about them. And the third is, this is going to sound funny, but attribution. Just like you would do in a news report or an academic paper. If you can state where your facts are coming from, the downstream consumer or the human being who has to use that information actually is going to be able to make better sense of it and rely better on it. So that's prompt engineering, that's retrieval, and that's attribution. >> So that brings me to my next point I want to dig in on is the foundational model stack that you published. And I'll start by saying that with ChatGPT, if you take out the naysayers who are like throwing cold water on it about being a gimmick or whatever, and then you got the other side, I would call the alpha nerds who are like they can see, "Wow, this is amazing." This is truly NextGen. This isn't yesterday's chatbot nonsense. They're like, they're all over it. It's that everybody's using it right now in every vertical. I heard someone using it for security logs. I heard a data center, hardware vendor using it for pushing out appsec review updates. I mean, I've heard corner cases. We're using it for theCUBE to put our metadata in. So there's a horizontal use case of value. So to me that tells me it's a market there. So when you have horizontal scalability in the use case you're going to have a stack. So you publish this stack and it has an application at the top, applications like Jasper out there. You're seeing ChatGPT. But you go after the bottom, you got silicon, cloud, foundational model operations, the foundational models themselves, tooling, sources, actions. Where'd you get this from? How'd you put this together? Did you just work backwards from the startups or was there a thesis behind this? Could you share your thoughts behind this foundational model stack? >> Sure. Well, I'm a recovering product manager and my job that I think about as a product manager is who is my customer and what problem he wants to solve. And so to put myself in the mindset of an application developer and a founder who is actually my customer as a partner at Madrona, I think about what technology and resources does she need to be really powerful, to be able to take a brilliant idea, and actually bring that to life. And if you spend time with that community, which I do and I've met with hundreds of founders now who are trying to do exactly this, you can see that the stack is emerging. In fact, we first drew it in, not in January 2023, but October 2022. And if you look at the difference between the October '22 and January '23 stacks you're going to see that holes in the stack that we identified in October around tooling and around foundation model ops and the rest are organically starting to get filled because of how much demand from the developers at the top of the stack. >> If you look at the young generation coming out and even some of the analysts, I was just reading an analyst report on who's following the whole data stacks area, Databricks, Snowflake, there's variety of analytics, realtime AI, data's hot. There's a lot of engineers coming out that were either data scientists or I would call data platform engineering folks are becoming very key resources in this area. What's the skillset emerging and what's the mindset of that entrepreneur that sees the opportunity? How does these startups come together? Is there a pattern in the formation? Is there a pattern in the competency or proficiency around the talent behind these ventures? >> Yes. I would say there's two groups. The first is a very distinct pattern, John. For the past 10 years or a little more we've seen a pattern of democratization of ML where more and more people had access to this powerful science and technology. And since about 2017, with the rise of the transformer architecture in these foundation models, that pattern has reversed. All of a sudden what has become broader access is now shrinking to a pretty small group of scientists who can actually train and manipulate the architectures of these models themselves. So that's one. And what that means is the teams who can do that have huge ability to make the future happen in ways that other people don't have access to yet. That's one. The second is there is a broader population of people who by definition has even more collective imagination 'cause there's even more people who sees what should be possible and can use things like the proprietary models, like the OpenAI models that are available off the shelf and try to create something that maybe nobody has seen before. And when they do that, Jasper AI is a great example of that. Jasper AI is a company that creates marketing copy automatically with generative models such as GPT-3. They do that and it's really useful and it's almost fun for a marketer to use that. But there are going to be questions of how they can defend that against someone else who has access to the same technology. It's a different population of founders who has to find other sources of differentiation without being able to go all the way down to the the silicon and the science. >> Yeah, and it's going to be also opportunity recognition is one thing. Building a viable venture product market fit. You got competition. And so when things get crowded you got to have some differentiation. I think that's going to be the key. And that's where I was trying to figure out and I think data with scale I think are big ones. Where's the vulnerability in the stack in terms of gaps? Where's the white space? I shouldn't say vulnerability. I should say where's the opportunity, where's the white space in the stack that you see opportunities for entrepreneurs to attack? >> I would say there's two. At the application level, there is almost infinite opportunity, John, because almost every kind of application is about to be reimagined or disrupted with a new generation that takes advantage of this really powerful new technology. And so if there is a kind of application in almost any vertical, it's hard to rule something out. Almost any vertical that a founder wishes she had created the original app in, well, now it's her time. So that's one. The second is, if you look at the tooling layer that we discussed, tooling is a really powerful way that you can provide more flexibility to app developers to get more differentiation for themselves. And the tooling layer is still forming. This is the interface between the models themselves and the applications. Tools that help bring in data, as you mentioned, connect to external actions, bring context across multiple calls, chain together multiple models. These kinds of things, there's huge opportunity there. >> Well, Jon, I really appreciate you coming in. I had a couple more questions, but I will take a minute to read some of your bios for the audience and we'll get into, I won't embarrass you, but I want to set the context. You said you were recovering product manager, 10 plus years at AWS. Obviously, recovering from AWS, which is a whole nother dimension of recovering. In all seriousness, I talked to Andy Jassy around that time and Dr. Matt Wood and it was about that time when AI was just getting on the radar when they started. So you guys started seeing the wave coming in early on. So I remember at that time as Amazon was starting to grow significantly and even just stock price and overall growth. From a tech perspective, it was pretty clear what was coming, so you were there when this tsunami hit. >> Jon: That's right. >> And you had a front row seat building tech, you were led the product teams for Computer Vision AI, Textract, AI intelligence for document processing, recognition for image and video analysis. You wrote the business product plan for AWS IoT and Greengrass, which we've covered a lot in theCUBE, which extends out to the whole edge thing. So you know a lot about AI/ML, edge computing, IOT, messaging, which I call the law of small numbers that scale become big. This is a big new thing. So as a former AWS leader who's been there and at Madrona, what's your investment thesis as you start to peruse the landscape and talk to entrepreneurs as you got the stack? What's the big picture? What are you looking for? What's the thesis? How do you see this next five years emerging? >> Five years is a really long time given some of this science is only six months out. I'll start with some, no pun intended, some foundational things. And we can talk about some implications of the technology. The basics are the same as they've always been. We want, what I like to call customers with their hair on fire. So they have problems, so urgent they'll buy half a product. The joke is if your hair is on fire you might want a bucket of cold water, but you'll take a tennis racket and you'll beat yourself over the head to put the fire out. You want those customers 'cause they'll meet you more than halfway. And when you find them, you can obsess about them and you can get better every day. So we want customers with their hair on fire. We want founders who have empathy for those customers, understand what is going to be required to serve them really well, and have what I like to call founder-market fit to be able to build the products that those customers are going to need. >> And because that's a good strategy from an emerging, not yet fully baked out requirements definition. >> Jon: That's right. >> Enough where directionally they're leaning in, more than in, they're part of the product development process. >> That's right. And when you're doing early stage development, which is where I personally spend a lot of my time at the seed and A and a little bit beyond that stage often that's going to be what you have to go on because the future is going to be so complex that you can't see the curves beyond it. But if you have customers with their hair on fire and talented founders who have the capability to serve those customers, that's got me interested. >> So if I'm an entrepreneur, I walk in and say, "I have customers that have their hair on fire." What kind of checks do you write? What's the kind of the average you're seeing for seed and series? Probably seed, seed rounds and series As. >> It can depend. I have seen seed rounds of double digit million dollars. I have seen seed rounds much smaller than that. It really depends on what is going to be the right thing for these founders to prove out the hypothesis that they're testing that says, "Look, we have this customer with her hair on fire. We think we can build at least a tennis racket that she can use to start beating herself over the head and put the fire out. And then we're going to have something really interesting that we can scale up from there and we can make the future happen. >> So it sounds like your advice to founders is go out and find some customers, show them a product, don't obsess over full completion, get some sort of vibe on fit and go from there. >> Yeah, and I think by the time founders come to me they may not have a product, they may not have a deck, but if they have a customer with her hair on fire, then I'm really interested. >> Well, I always love the professional services angle on these markets. You go in and you get some business and you understand it. Walk away if you don't like it, but you see the hair on fire, then you go in product mode. >> That's right. >> All Right, Jon, thank you for coming on theCUBE. Really appreciate you stopping by the studio and good luck on your investments. Great to see you. >> You too. >> Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you, Jon. >> CUBE coverage here at Palo Alto. I'm John Furrier, your host. More coverage with CUBE Conversations after this break. (upbeat music)

>>Hey guys. Welcome back to Detroit, Michigan. Lisa Martin and John Furrier here live with the cube at Coan Cloud Native Con North America. John, it's been a great day. This is day one of our coverage of three days of coverage. Kubernetes is growing up. Yeah, it's maturing. >>Yeah. We got three days of wall to wall coverage, all about Kubernetes. We about security, large scale, cloud native at scale. That's the big focus. This next segment's gonna be really awesome. You have a fast growing private company and a practitioner, big name, blue chip practitioner, building out next NextGen Cloud first, transforming, then building out the next level. This is classic of what we call super cloud-like, like interview. It's gonna be great. I'm looking forward >>To this anytime we can talk about Super Cloud. All right, please welcome back. One of our alumni, Bani is here, the CEO of Rafe. Great to see you Santos. Ula also joins us, the global head of Cloud SRE at Mass Mutual. Ge. Great to have you on the program. Thanks >>For having us. Thank you for having me. >>So Steve, you've been on the queue many times. You were on just recently with the momentum that that's around us today with the maturation of Kubernetes, the collaboration of the community, the recognition of the community. What are some of the things that you're excited about with on, on day one of the show? >>Wow, so many new companies. I mean, there are companies that I don't know who are here. And I, I, I live in this industry and I'm seeing companies that I don't know, which is a good thing. I mean, it means that the, the community's growing. But at the same time, I'm also seeing another thing, which is I have met more enterprise representatives at this show than other coupons. Like when we hung out at, you know, in Valencia for example, or even, you know, other places. It hasn't been this many people, which means, and this is, this is a good thing that enterprises are now taking Kubernetes seriously. It's not a toy. It's not just for developers. It's enterprises who are now investing in Kubernetes as a foundational component, right. For their applications going forward. And that to me is very, very good. >>Definitely becoming foundational. >>Yep. Well, you guys got a great traction. We had many interviews at the Cube and you got a practitioner here with you. You guys are both pioneering kind of what I call the next gen cloud. First you gotta get through gen one, which you guys done at Mass Mutual, extremely well, take us through the story of your transformation. Cause you're on the, at the front end now of that next inflection point. But take us through how you got here. You had a lot of transformation success at Mass Mutual. >>So I was actually talking about this topic few, few minutes back, right? And, and the whole cloud journey in big companies, large financial institutions, healthcare industry or, or our insurance sector. It takes generations of leadership to get, to get to that perfection level. And, and ideally the, the, the cloud for strategy starts in, and then, and then how do you, how do you standardize and optimize cloud, right? You know, that that's, that's the second gen altogether. And then operationalization of the cloud. And especially if, you know, if you're talking about Kubernetes, you know, in the traditional world, you know, almost every company is running middleware and their applications in middleware. And then containerization is a topic that come, that came in. And docker is, is you know, basically the runtime containerization. So that came in first and from Docker, you know, eventually when companies started adopting Docker, Docker Swarm is one of the technologies that they adopted. And eventually when, when, when we were taking it to a more complicated application implementations or modernization efforts, that's when Kubernetes played a key role. And, and Hasi was pointing out, you know, like you never saw so many companies working on Kubernetes. So that should tell you one story, right? How fast Kubernetes is growing and how important it is for your cloud strategy. So, >>And your success now, and what are you thinking about now? What's on your agenda now as you look forward? What's on your plate? What are you guys doing right now? >>So we are, we are past the stage of, you know, proof of concepts, proof of technologies, pilot implementations. We are actually playing it, you know, the real game now. So in the past I used the quote, you know, like, hello world to real world. So we are actually playing in the real world, not, not in the hello world anymore. Now, now this is where the real time challenges will, will pop up, right? So if you're talking about standardizing it and then optimizing the cloud and how do you put your governance structure in place? How do you make sure your regulations are met? You know, the, the, the demands that come out of regulations are met and, and how, how are you going to scale it and, and, and while scaling, however you wanna to keep up with all the governance and regulations that come with it. So we are in that stage today. >>Has Steve talked about, you talked about the great evolution of what's going on at Mass Mutual has talked a little bit about who, you mentioned one of the things that's surprising you about this Coan and Detroit is that you're seeing a lot more enterprise folks here who, who's deciding in the organization and your customer conversations, Who are the deci decision makers in terms of adoption of Kubernetes these days? Is that elevating? >>Hmm. Well this guy, >>It's usually, you know, one of the things I'm seeing here, and John and I have talked about this in the past, this idea of a platform organization and enterprises. So consistently what I'm seeing is, you know, somebody, a cto, CIO level, you know, individual is making a determin decision. I have multiple internal buss who are now modernizing applications. They're individually investing in DevOps. And this is not a good investment for my business. I'm going to centralize some of this capability so that we can all benefit together. And that team is essentially a platform organization and they're making Kubernetes a shared services platform so that everybody else can come and, and, and sort of, you know, consume it. So what that means to us is our customer is a platform organization and their customer is a developer. So we have to make two constituencies successful. Our customer who's providing a multi-tenant platform, and then their customer who's a developer, both have to be happy. If you don't solve for both, you know, constituencies, you're not gonna be >>Successful. You're targeting the builder of the infrastructure and the consumer of that infrastructure. >>Yes sir. It has to be both. Exactly. Right. Right. So, so that look, honestly, that it, it, you know, it takes iterations to figure these things out, right? But this is a consistent theme that I am seeing. In fact, what I would argue now is that every enterprise should be really stepping back and thinking about what is my platform strategy. Cuz if you don't have a platform strategy, you're gonna have a bunch of different teams who are doing different things and some will be successful and look, some will not be. And that is not good for business. >>Yeah. And, and stage, I wanna get to you, you mentioned that your transformation was what you look forward and your title, global head of cloud sre. Okay, so sre, we all know came from Google, right? Everyone wants to be like Google, but no one wants to be like Google, right? And no one is Google, Google's a unique thing. It's only one Google. But they had the dynamic and the power dynamic of one person to large scale set of servers or infrastructure. But concept is, is, is can be portable, but, but the situation isn't. So board became Kubernetes, that's inside baseball. So you're doing essentially what Google did at their scale you're doing for Mass Mutual. That's kind of what's happening. Is that kind of how I see it? And you guys are playing in there partnering. >>So I I totally agree. Google introduce, sorry, Ty engineering. And, and if you take, you know, the traditional transformation of the roles, right? In the past it was called operations and then DevOps ops came in and then SRE is is the new buzzword. And the future could be something like product engineering, right? And, and, and in this journey, you know, here is what I tell, you know, folks on my side like what worked for Google might not work for a financial company, might not work for an insurance company. So, so, so it's, it's okay to use the word sre, but but the end of the day that SRE has to be tailored down to, to your requirements and and, and the customers that you serve and the technology that you serve. Yep. >>And this is, this is why I'm coming back, this platform engineering. At the end of the day, I think SRE just translates to, you're gonna have a platform engineering team cuz you gotta enable developers to be producing more code faster, better, cheaper guardrails policy. So this, it's kind of becoming the, you serve the business, which is now the developers it used to serve the business Yep. Back in the old days. Hey, the, it serves the business. Yep. Which is a terminal, >>Which is actually true >>Now it the new, it serves the developers, which is the business. Which is the business. Because if digital transformation goes to completion, the company is the app. Yep. >>And the, you know, the, the hard line between development and operations, right? So, so that's thining down over the time, you know, like that that line might disappear. And, and, and that's where asari is fitting in. >>Yeah. And they're building platforms to scale the enablement up that what is, so what is the key challenges you guys are, are both building out together this new transformational direction? What's new and what's the same, The same is probably the business results, but what's the new dynamic involved in rolling it out and making people successful? You got the two constituents, the builders of the infrastructures and the consumers of the services on the other side. What's the new thing? >>So the new thing if, if I may go fast these, so the faster market to, you know, value, right? That we are bringing to the table. That's, that's very important. You know, business has an idea. How do you get that idea implemented in terms of technology and, and take it into real time. So that journey we have cut down, right? Technology is like Kubernetes. It makes, it makes, you know, an IT person's life so easy that, that they can, they can speed up the process in, in, in a traditional way. What used to take like an year or six months can be done in a month today or or less than that, right? So, so there's definitely the losses, speed, velocity, agility in general, and then flexibility. And then the automation that we put in, especially if you have to maintain like thousands of clusters, you know, these, these are today like, you know, it is possible to, to make that happen with a click off a button. In the past it used to take like, you know, probably, you know, a hundred, a hundred percent team and operational team to do it. And a lot of time. But, but, but that automation is happening. You know, and we can get into the technology as much as possible. But, but, you know, blueprinting and all that stuff made >>It possible. Well say that for another interview, we'll do it take time. >>But the, the end user on the other end, the consumer doesn't have the patience that they once had. Right? Right. It's, I want this in my lab now. Now, how does the culture of Mass Mutual, how is it evolv to be able to deliver the velocity that your customers are demanding? >>So if once in a while, you know, it's important to step yourself into the customer's shoes and think it from their, from their, from their perspective, business does not care how you're running your IT shop. What they care about is your stability of the product and the efficiencies of the product and, and, and how, how, how easy it is to reach out to the customers and how well we are serving the customers, right? So whether I'm implementing Docker in the background, Dr. Swam or es you know, business doesn't even care about it. What they really care about it is if your environment goes down, it's a problem. And, and, and if you, if your environment or if your solution is not as efficient as the business needs, that's the problem, right? So, so at that point, the business will step in. So our job is to make sure, you know, from an, from a technology perspective, how fast you can make implement it and how efficiently you can implement it. And at the same time, how do you play within the guardrails of security and compliance. >>So I was gonna ask you if you have VMware in your environment, cause a lot of clients compare what vCenter does for Kubernetes is really needed. And I think that's what you guys got going on. I I can say that you're the v center of Kubernetes. I mean, as a, as an as an metaphor, a place to manage it all is all 1, 1 1 paint of glass, so to speak. Is that how you see success in your environment? >>So virtualization has gone a long way, you know where we started, what we call bare metal servers, and then we virtualized operating systems. Now we are virtualizing applications and, and we are virtualizing platforms as well, right? So that's where Kubernetes basically got. >>So you see the need for a vCenter like thing for Uber, >>Definitely a need in the market in the way you need to think is like, you know, let's say there is, there is an insurance company who actually mented it and, and they gain the market advantage. Right? Now the, the the competition wants to do it as well, right? So, so, so there's definitely a virtualization of application layer that, that, that's very critical and it's, it's a critical component of cloud strategy as >>A whole. See, you're too humble to say it. I'll say you like the V center of Kubernetes, Explain what that means and your turn. If I said that to you, what would you react? How would you react to that? Would say bs or would you say on point, >>Maybe we should think about what does vCenter do today? Right? It's, it's so in my opinion, by the way, well vCenter in my opinion is one of the best platforms ever built. Like ha it's the best platform in my opinion ever built. It's, VMware did an amazing job because they took an IT engineer and they made him now be able to do storage management, networking management, VMs, multitenancy, access management audit, everything that you need to run a data center, you can do from a single, essentially single >>Platform, from a utility standpoint home >>Run. It's amazing, right? Yeah, it is because you are now able to empower people to do way more. Well why are we not doing that for Kubernetes? So the, the premise man Rafa was, well, oh, bless, I should have IT engineers, same engineers now they should be able to run fleets of clusters. That's what people that mass major are able to do now, right? So to that end, now you need cluster management, you need access management, you need blueprinting, you need policy management, you need ac, you know, all of these things that have happened before chargebacks, they used to have it in, in V center. Now they need to happen in other platforms. But for es so should do we do many of the things that vCenter does? Yes. >>Kind >>Of. Yeah. Are we a vCenter for es? Yeah, that is a John Forer question. >>All right, well, I, I'll, the speculation really goes back down to the earlier speed question. If you can take away the, the complexity and not make it more steps or change a tool chain or do something, then the devs move faster and the service layer that serves the business, the new organization has to enable speed. So this, this is becoming a, a real discussion point in the industry is that, oh yeah, we've got new tool, look at the shiny new toy. But if it doesn't move the needle, does it help productivity for developers? And does it actually scale up the enablement? That's the question. So I'm sure you guys are thinking about this a lot, what's your reaction? >>Yeah, absolutely. And one thing that just, you know, hit my mind is think about, you know, the hoteling industry before Airbnb and after Airbnb, right? Or, or, or the taxi industry, you know, before Uber and after Uber, right? So if I'm providing a platform, a Kubernetes platform for my application folks or for my application partners, they have everything ready. All they need to do is like, you know, build their application and deployed and running, right? They, they, they don't have to worry about provisioning of the servers and then building the middleware on top of it and then, you know, do a bunch of testing to make sure, you know, they, they, they iron out all the, all the compatible issues and whatnot. Yeah. Now, now, today, all I, all I say is like, hey, you have, we have a platform built for you. You just build your application and then deploy it in a development environment. That's where you put all the pieces of puzzle together, make sure you see your application working, and then the next thing that, that you do is like, you know, you know, build >>Production, chip, build production, go and chip release it. Yeah, that's the nirvana. But then we're there. I mean, we're there now we're there. So we see the future. Because if you, if that's the case, then the developers are the business. They have to be coding more features, they have to react to customers. They might see new business opportunities from a revenue standpoint that could be creatively built, got low code, no code, headless systems. These things are happening where this I call the architectural list environment where it's like, you don't need architecture, it's already happening. >>Yeah. And, and on top of it, you know, if, if someone has an idea, they want to implement an idea real quick, right? So how do you do it? Right? And, and, and you don't have to struggle building an environment to implement your idea and testers in real time, right? So, so from an innovation perspective, you know, agility plays a key role. And, and that, that's where the Kubernetes platforms or platforms like Kubernetes >>Plays. You know, Lisa, when we talked to Andy Chasy, when he was the CEO of aws, either one on one or on the cube, he always said, and this is kind of happening, companies are gonna be builders where it's not just utility. You need that table stakes to enable that new business idea. And so he, this last keynote, he did this big thing like, you know, think like your developers are the next entrepreneurial revenue generators. And I think that, I think starting to see that, what do you think about that? You see that coming sooner than later? Or is that in, in sight or is that still ways away? >>I, I think it's already happening at a level, at a certain level now. Now the question comes back to, you know, taking it to the reality, right? Yeah. I mean, you can, you can do your proof of concept, proof of technologies, and then, and then prove it out. Like, Hey, I got a new idea. This idea is great. Yeah. And, and it's to the business advantage, right? But we really want to see it in production live where your customers are actually >>Using it and the board meetings, Hey, we got a new idea that came in, generating more revenue, where'd that come from? Agile developer. Again, this is real. Yeah, >>Yeah. >>Absolutely agree. Yeah. I think, think both of you gentlemen said a word in, in your, as you were talking, you used the word guardrails, right? I think, you know, we're talking about rigidity, but you know, the really important thing is, look, these are enterprises, right? They have certain expectations. Guardrails is key, right? So it's automation with the guardrails. Yeah. Guardrails are like children, you know, you know, shouldn't be hurt. You know, they're seen but not hurt. Developers don't care about guard rails. They just wanna go fast. They also bounce >>Around a little bit. Yeah. Off the guardrails. >>One thing we know that's not gonna slow down is, is the expectations, right? Of all the consumers of this, the Ds the business, the, the business top line, and of course the customers. So the ability to, to really, as your website says, let's see, make life easy for platform teams is not trivial. And clearly what you guys are talking about here is you're, you're really an enabler of those platform teams, it sounds like to me. Yep. So, great work, guys. Thank you so much for both coming on the program, talking about what you're doing together, how you're seeing the, the evolution of Kubernetes, why, and really what the focus should be on those platform games. We appreciate all your time and your insights. >>Thank you so much for having us. Thanks >>For our pleasure. For our guests and for John Furrier, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching The Cube Live, Cobe Con, Cloud Native con from Detroit. We've out with our next guest in just a minute, so stick around.

(upbeat music) >> Okay, welcome back everyone to theCUBE's coverage of AWS Summit 2022, here at Moscone Center live on the floor, I'm John Furry host of theCUBE, all the action day two, remember AWS Summit in New York City is coming in the summer. We'll be there as well. Got a great guest Murli Murli who's the VP and GM of Cloud Native Business Unit Portworx, been in theCUBE multiple times. We were just talking about the customer he had on Ford from Detroit, where kubernetes will be this year. >> That's right. >> Great to see you. >> Yeah, same here, John. Great to see. >> So, what's the update? Quickly this, before we get into the country, give the update on what's going on in the company, what's happening? >> Well, you know, we've been acquired by Pure Storage it's well over a year. So we've had one full year of being inside of Pure. It's been wonderful, right? So we've had a great ride so far, The products have been renewed. We've got a bunch of integrations with Pure. We more than doubled our business and more than doubled our head count. So things are going great. >> I always had a, congratulations by the way. And I was going to ask about the integration but before I get there, yeah, we've been always like play some jokes on theCUBE and because serverless is so hot, I've been using storage lists and actually saw a startup yesterday had the word networking lists in their title. So this idea of like making things easier, but me, I mean serverless of this is basically servers that make it easier. >> Yeah, yeah >> So this is kind of where we see Cloud Native going. Can you share your thoughts on how Pure and Portworx are bringing this together? Because you can almost connect the dots in my mind. So say specifically what is the Cloud Native angle with Pure? >> Yeah. So look, I'll kind of start by being captain an obvious, I guess. Just sort of stating some obvious stuff and then get to what I hope will be a little bit more new and interesting. So the obvious stuff to start with is just the fact that Cloud Native is exploding. Containers are exploding. It's kind of a well known fact that 85% of the enterprise organizations around the world are pretty much going to be deploying containers, if not already in the next couple of years, right? So one it's really happening. The, buzz is now, it's not just in the future, the hype is now. The second part of that is it's really part of that is things are going production. 56% of these organizations are in production already. And that's the number is going to climb to 80 fairly quickly. So not only is this stuff being deployed as being deployed in sort of fairly mission critical, especially Greenfield applications. So that's kind of one, right? Now, the second thing that we're seeing is as they go in into production, John, the migraines are starting, right? Customer migraines, right? It's always happens in stuff that they have not looked around the corner and anticipated. So one of them is, again, a fairly obvious one is as they go into production, they need to be able to kind of recover from some oops that happens, right? And the kinds of think about this, right? John, this stuff is rapidly changing, right? Look at how many versions of kubernetes come out on a regular basis. On top of that, you got all these app, virgins, new database virgins, new stuff, vendors like us, ourselves have new virgins. So with all these new virgins, when you put it all together the stack, sometimes misbehave. So you got to kind of, "Hey, let me go recover." Right? You have outages. So essentially the whole area of data protection becomes a lot more critical. That's the migraine that people are beginning to get now, right? They can feel the migraine coming on. The good news is this is not new stuff. People know on- >> John: The DevOps. >> Yeah. Well, and in fact it is that transition from DevOps to ITOps, right? People know that they're going into production, that they need backup and data protection and disaster recovery. So in a way it's kind of good news, bad news, the good news is they know that they need it. The bad news is, it turns out that it's kind of interesting as they go Cloud Native, the technology stack has changed. So 82% of customers who are kind of deploying Cloud Native are worried about data protection. And in fact, I'll go one step further 67% of those people have actually kind of looked at what they can get from existing vendors and are going, "Hey, this is not it. This is not going to do my stuff for me." >> And by the way, just to throw a little bit more gas on that fire is ransomware attacks. So any kind of vulnerability opening? Maybe make people are scared. >> Murli: Absolutely. >> So with- >> Murli: Its a board level topic, right? >> Yeah, and then you bring down the DevOps, which is we all know the innovation formula launch in iterate, pivot, iterate, pivot, then innovation you get the formula, all your metrics, but it's a system. >> Correct. >> Storage is part now of a system when you bring Cloud Native into it, you have a consequence if something changes. >> Murli: Correct. >> So I see that. And the question I have for you is, where are we in the stability side of it? Are we close to getting there and what's coming out to help that, is it more tooling? Because the trend is people are building tools around their Cloud Native thing. I was just talking to MongoDB and they got a database, now that's all tooling. Vertically integrate into the asset or the product, because it integrates with APIs, right? So that makes total sense. >> So I think there's kind of again, a good news, bad news there, right? There's a lot of good news, right? In the world of containers and kubernetes what are some of the good news items, right? A lot of the APIs have settled down have been defined well, CNCF has done a great job promoting that, right? So the APIs are stable, right? Second, the product feature set, have become more stable, particularly sort of the the core kubernetes product security kind of stuff, right? Now what's the bad news. The bad news is, while these things are stable they are not ready for scale in every case yet, right? And when you integrate at scale, so and typically the tipping point is around 20 to 30 nodes, right? So typically when you go beyond 20 to 30 nodes then the stuff starts to come a apart, right? Like, the wheels come off of the train and all of that. And that's typically because there's a lot of the products that were designed for DevOps, are not well suited for ITOps. So really there is a new- >> And the talent culture. >> Exactly. >> Talent and culture sometimes aren't ready or are changing. >> So it's a whole bunch of people trying to use kind of a maturing product set with skill sets that are pretty low, right? So when we get into production, then other factors come into play, high availability, right? Security, you talk about ransomware, disaster recovery backup. So these are things that are sort of, I would say not 101 problems, but 201 problems, so right? This is natural as we go to that part of the thing. And that's the kind of stuff that, Portworx and Pure Storage have been kind of focused on solving. And that's kind of been how we've made our mark in the industry, right? We've helped people really get to production on some of these different points. >> Expectation on both companies have been strong, high quality, obviously performance on Pure side from day one, just did a great job with the products. Now, when you go into Cloud Native you have now this connection okay. To the customer, again I think huge point on the changing landscape. How do you see that IT to DevOps emerging? Because the trend that we're seeing is, abstracting way the complexities of management. So I won't say managed services are more of a trend, they've always been around but the notion of making it easier for customers. >> Yep, absolutely right. >> Super important. So can you guys share what you guys are doing to make it easier because not everyone has a DevOps team. >> Yeah, so look, the number one way things are made more easy, is to make it more consumable by making it as a service. So this is one of the things, here we are, at AWS Summit, right? And delighted to be here by the way. And we have a strategic alliance with with AWS, and specifically, what we're here to announce really is that we're announcing a backup as a SaaS product. Coming up in a few weeks we're going to be giing running on AWS as a service integrated with AWS. So essentially what happens is, if you have a containerized set of applications you're deploying it on EKS, ECS, AWS, what have you. We will automatically provide the ability for that to be backed up scaled and to be very, very container granular, very app specific, right? Yeah, so it's designed specifically for kubernetes. Now here's the kind of key thing to say, right? Backup's been around for a long time. You've interviewed, tons of backup people in the past. But traditional backup is just not going to work for kubernetes. And it's very simple if you think about it, John. >> John: And why is that? >> It's a very simple thing, right? Traditional backup focuses on apps and data, right? Those are the two kind of legs of that. And they create catalogs and then do a great job there. Well, here's, what's happened with Cloud Native. You have a thing inserted in the middle called kubernetes. So when you take a snapshot, I'm now kind of going into a specific kind of, world of storage, right? When you take a snapshot, what Portworx does is we take a 3D snapshot. What you really need to recover, from a backup situation where, you want to go back to the earlier stage to be kubernetes specific, you need a app snapshot, snapshot of the kubernetes spec, pod spec, And third of snapshot of the data. Well, traditional, backup folks are not taking that middle snapshot. So we do a 3D snapshot and we recover all three which is really what you need to be able to kind of like get backed up, get recovered in minutes. >> Okay and so the alternative to not doing that is what? What will happen? >> You To do that, to do your old machine level backup? So what happens with traditional backups are typically VM level or machine level, right? So you're taking a snapshot of the whole kind of machine and server or VM setup and then you recover all of that, and then you run kubernetes on that and then you try to recover it- >> John: To either stand everything up again. >> Yeah, yeah. >> John: Pretty much. >> Yeah. Whereas, what do most people want to do? This is a very different use case, by the way, right? How does this work? What people are doing for kubernetes is they're not doing archival kind of backup. What they're doing is real time, right? You're running an ops. Like I said, you got an oops, "Hey, a new release for one of the new databases then work right? Boom! I want to just go back to like yesterday, right? So how do I do that? Well, here you can just go back for that one database, one app, and recover back to that. So it's operational backup and recovery as opposed to archival backup and recovery. So for that, to be able to recover in seconds, right? You need to be, he kind of want integrated with AWS which is what we are. So it's integrated, it's automated, and it's very, very container granular. And so these three things are the things that make it sort of, very specific way. >> I love the integration story. 'Cause I think that's the big mega trend we're seeing now is is that integrating in. And, but again, it's a systems concept. It's not standalone storage, detached storage. >> Murli: Exactly. >> It's always, even though it might be decoupled a little bit it's glued together through say- >> John, you said it right. The easy button is for the system, right? Not for the individual component. Look, all of us vendors in this ecosystem are going around framing, having a being easy. But when we say that, what do we mean? We mean, oh, I'm easy to use. Well that doesn't help the user. Who's got to put all this stuff together. So it's really kind of making that stack work. >> This is easy to use, but it made these things more complex. This is what we do in the enterprise solve complexity with more complexity. >> Putting the problem to the other guy. Yeah. So it's that end to end ease of use is kind of what I would say, is the number one benefit, right? One it's container specific and designed for kubernetes. And second, it really, really is easy. >> Well, I really like the whole thing and I want to get your thoughts as we close out, what should people know about Pure and Portworx's relationship now and in the Amazon integration, what's the new narrative the north Star's still the same? High performance store, backup, securely recover and deliver the data in whatever mechanism we can. That north Star's clear, never changes, which is great. I feel love about Pure and Cloud Native. It's just taking the blockers away- >> I think the single biggest thing I would say, is all of these things, what we're turning into it is as a service offering. So if we're going to backup as a service our Portworx product now is going to be the Portworx enterprise Pure Storage product is going to be offered as a service. So with, as a service, it's easy to consume. It's easy to deploy. It's fully automated. That's the kind of the single biggest aha! Especially for the folks who are deploying on AWS today, AWS is well known for being easy to use. It's kind of fully automated. Well here, now you have this functionality for Cloud Native workloads. >> Final question, real quick, customer reaction so far, I'm assuming marketplace integration, buying terms, join selling, go to market? >> So yeah, it is integrated billing and all of that is part of that kind of offering, right? So when we say easy, it's not just about being easy to use it's about being easy to buy. It's being easy to expand all of that and scaling. Yeah. And being able to kind of automatically or automagically as I like to say, scale it, right? So all of that is absolutely part of it, right? So it is really kind of... It's not about having the basics anymore. We've been in the market now for six, seven years, so right? We have sort of an advanced offering that not only knows what customer want but anticipates what ones can expect and that's a key difference. >> I was talking to Dr. Matt Wood real quick. I know we got to wrap up on the schedule, but earlier today about AI and business analytics division's running and we were talking about serverless and the impact of serverless. And he really kind of came down the same lines where you are with the storage and the cloud data which is, "Hey, some people just want storage and the elastic leap analytics without all the under the cover stuff." Some people want to look under the covers, fine whatever choice. So really two things, so. >> Yeah, yeah. All the way from you can buy the individual components or you can buy the as a service offering, which just packages it all up in a on easy to consume kind of solution, right? >> Final, final question. What's it like at Pure everything going well, things good? >> We love it, man. I'll tell you these folks have welcomed us with open arms. And look, I've been acquired twice before. And I say this, that one of the key linchpins to a successful integration or acquisition is not just the strategic intent that always exists but really around a common culture. And, we've been blessed. I think the two companies have a strong common culture of being customer first, product excellence, and team wins every time. And these three things kind of have pulled us together. It's been a pleasure. >> One of the benefits of doing the queue for 13 years is that you get the seats things. Scott came on the queue to announce Pure Storage on theCUBE, cuz he was a nobody else. There was, oh, you're never going to get escape Velocity, EMC's going to kill, you never owned you. Nope. >> Well, we're talking about marketplaces and theCUBE is the marketplace of big announcements, John. So this is, delighted- >> Announcements. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well that was the AWS announcement. Yeah. So that's, that is big >> Final words, share the audience. What's what to expect in the next year for you guys? What's the big come news coming down? What's coming around the corner? >> I think you can expect from from Pure and Portworx the as a service set of offerings around, HADR backup, but also a brand new stuff, keep an eye out. We'll be back with John. I hope that talking about this is data services. So we have a Portworx data service product that is going to be announced. And it's magic. It's allowing people to deploy databases in a very, very, it's the easy button for database deployment. >> Congratulations on all your success. The VP and General Manager of the Cloud Native Business Unit. >> You make it sound bigger than it actually is, John. >> Thanks for coming on. Appreciate it. >> Thanks. >> Okay theCUBE coverage be back for more coverage. You're watching theCUBE here, live in Moscone on the ground at an event AWS Summit 2022. I'm John Furrier. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>>Welcome back to Los Angeles, Lisa Martin and Dave Nicholson here on day three of the cubes, coverage of coop con and cloud native con north America, 21, Dave, we've had a lot of great conversations. The last three days it's been jam packed. Yes, it has been. And yes, it has been fantastic. And it's been live. Did we mention that it's inline live in Los Angeles and we're very pleased to welcome one of our alumni back to the program. David Stephanie is here. The CEO of Trulio David. Welcome back. It's good to see you. >>Thanks for having me. It's good to be here. Isn't it great to be in person? Oh man. It's been a reunion. >>It hasn't been a reunion and they have Ubered been talking about these great little, have you seen these wristbands that they have? I actually asked >>For two, cause I'm a big hugger, so >>Excellent. So, so here we are day three of coupon. That's actually probably day five, our third day of coverage. I'm losing track to it's Friday. I know that, that I can tell you, you guys announced two dot five a couple of weeks ago. Tell us what's in that. What's exciting. Before we crack open Twilio, uh, choy. >>Sure, sure. Well, it's been exciting to be here. Look, the theme right of resiliency realize has been it's right up our wheelhouse, right? To signal that more people are getting into production type of environments. More people require data protection for cloud native applications, right? And, uh, there's two dot five releases. It is as an answer to what we're seeing in the market. It really is centered predominantly around, uh, ransomware protection. And uh, you know, for us, when we look at this, I I've done a lot of work in, in cybersecurity, my career. And we took a hard look about a year ago around this area. How do we do this? How do we participate? How do we protect and help people recover? Because recovery that's part of the security conversation. You can talk about all the other things, but recovery is just as important. And we look at, uh, everything from a zero trust architecture that we provide now to adhering, to NIST standards and framework that's everything from immutability. Uh, so you can't touch the backups now, right? Uh, th that's fine to encryption, right? We'll encrypt from the application all the way to that, to the storage repository. And we'll leverage Keem in that system. So it's kind of like Bitcoin, right? You need a key to get your coin. You as an end-user only have your key to your data alone. And that's it. So all these things become more and more important as we adopt more cloud native technology. And >>As the threat landscape changes dramatically. >>Oh yeah. I got to tell you right. Every time we, you, you publish an application into another cloud, it's a new vector, right? So now I'm living in a multi-cloud world where multiple applications in my data now lives, right? So people are trying to attack backups through, uh, consoles and the ministry of consoles to the actual back of themselves. So new vectors, new problems need new solutions. >>And you mentioned, you mentioned something, you, you, you asked the question, how do we participate? And we are here at KU con uh, w uh, cloud native foundation. So what about, what's your connection to the open source community and efforts there? How do you participate in that? >>Yeah, so it's a really great question because, you know, uh, we are a closed source solution that focuses all of our efforts on the open source community and protecting cloud native applications. Our roots have been protecting cloud native applications since 2013, 2014, and with a lot of very large logos. And, um, you know, through time there are open source projects that do emerge, you know, in this community. And for example, Valero is an open source data protection platform, um, for all of its goodness, as a, as a community-based project, they're also deficiencies, right? So Valero in itself is, uh, focuses only on label based applications. It doesn't really scale. It doesn't have a UI it's really CLI driven, which is good for some people and it's free. But you know, if you need to really talk about an enterprise grade platform, this is where we pick up, you know, we, in our last release, we gave you the ability to capture your Valero based backups. And now you want to be an adult with an enterprise caliber, you know, backup solution and continue to protect your environment and have compliance and governance needs all satisfied. That's where, that's where we really stand out. >>Well, when you're talking to customers in any industry, what are the things that you talk about in terms of relief, categorizing the key differentiators that really make Trulia stand out above the competition? >>Yeah. Cause there, there a bunch of, they're a bunch of great competitors out there. There's no doubt about it. A lot of the legacy folks that you do see perhaps on those show floor, they do tuck in Valero and under the, under the covers, they can check a box or you can set aside some customer needs some of the pure play people that, that we do see out there, great solutions too. But really where we shine is, you know, we are the most flexible agnostic solution that there is in this market. And we've had people like red hat and Susa and verandas, digital ocean and HPS morale. And the list goes on, certify, say, Trulio is the solution of choice. And now no matter where you are in this journey or who you're using, we have your back. So there's a lot of flexibility. There we are complete storage agnostic. >>We are cloud agnostic in going back to how you want to build our architecture application. People are in various phases in their, in their journey. A lot of times, many moons ago, you may have started with just a label based application. Then you have another department that has a new technique and they want to use helm, or you may be adopting open shift and you're using operators to us. It doesn't matter. You have peace of mind. So whether you have, you have to protect multiple departments or you as an end user, as one single tenant are using various techniques, we'll discover or protect and we can move forward. >>So if you looked at, if you look at it from a workload basis, um, and you look at your customers are the workloads that you're protecting. What's, what's the mix of what you think of as legacy virtualized things versus containerized things. And then, and then, and then the other kind of follow on to that is, um, are you seeing a lot of modernization and migration or are you seeing people leave the legacy things alone and then develop net new in sort of separate silos? >>Yeah. So that's a great question. And I, to tell you the answer varies, that's, that's the honest answer, right? You end up having, you may have a group or a CIO that says, look, your CTO says, we're moving to this new architecture. The water's great, bring your applications in. And so either it's, we're going to lift and shift an application and then start to break it apart over time and develop microservices, or we're gonna start net new. And it really does run, run the gambit. And so, you know, as we look at, for some of those people, they have peace of mind that they can bring their two on applications in and we can recover. And for some people that say, look, I'm going to start brand new, and these are gonna be stateless applications. Um, we've seen this story before, right? Our, our, uh, uh, I joke around, it's kinda like the movie Groundhog's day. >>Uh, you know, we, we started many moons ago within the OpenStack world and we started with stateless to stateful. Always, always, always finds a way, but for the stateless people, um, when you start thinking about security, I've had conversations with CSOs around the world who say, I'm going to publish a stainless application. What I'm concerned about things like drift, you know, what's happening in runtime may be completely different than what I intended. So now we give you the ability to capture that runtime state compare. The two things identify what's changed. If you don't like what you see, and you can take that point in time recovery into a sandbox and forensically take it apart. You know, one of our superpowers, if you will, is the, our point in time, backups are all in an open format. Everyone else has proprietary Schemos. So the benefit of an open format is you have the ability to leverage a lot of third party tooling. So take a point in time, run scanners across it. And it, God forbid Trulio goes away. You still have access and you can recreate a point in time. So when you start thinking about compliance, heavy environments, think about telcos, right? Or financial institutions. They have to keep things for 15 years, right? Technologies change, architectures change. You can't have that lock-in >>So we continue to thrive. And on that front, one of the marketing terms that we hear a lot, and I want to get your opinion on this as a feature proofing, how do you, what does, what does it mean to you and Trillium and how do you enable that for organizations, like you said, for the FSI is I have to keep data for 15 years and other industries that have to keep it for maybe even longer. >>I mean, right. The future proof, uh, you know, terminology, that's part of our mantra actually, when I talked about, you know, a superpower being as agnostic and flexible as can be right, as long as you adhere to standards, right? The standards that are out here, we have that agnostic play. And then again, not just capturing an applications, metadata data, but that open format, right? Giving you that open capability to unpack something. So you're not, there is no, there is no vendor lock-in with us at all. So all these things play a part into, into future-proofing yourself. And because we live and breathe cloud native applications, you know, it's not just Kubernetes right? Over the course of time, there'll be other things, right. You're going to see mixed workloads too. They're gonna be VM based in the cloud and container based in the cloud and server lists as well. But you, as long as you have that framework to continuously build off of it, that's, that's where we go. You know, uh, it shouldn't matter where your application lives, right? At the end of the day, we will protect the application and its data. It can live anywhere. So conversations around multi-cloud change, we start to think and talk across cloud, right? The ability to move your application, your data, wherever it, wherever it needs to be to. >>Well, you talked about recoverability and that is the whole point of backing up video. You have to be able to recover something that we've seen in the last 18, 19 months. Anyone can backup >>Data. >>That's right. That's right. If you can't recover it, or if you can't recover it in time. Yeah. We're talking like going on a business potential and we've seen the massive changes in the security landscape in the last 18, 19 months ransomware. I was looking at some, some cybersecurity data that showed that just in the first half of this calendar year, January one to June 30, 20, 21, ransomware was up nearly 11 X DDoS attacks are up. We've got this remote workforce. That's going to probably persist for a while. So the ability to recover data from not if we get hit by ransomware, but when we get hit by ransomware is >>When you're, you're absolutely right. And, and, and to your plate anyway. So anyone can back up anything. When you look at it, it's at its highest form. We talk about point time where you orchestration, right. Backup is a use case. Dr. Is a use case, right? How do you, reorchestrate something that's complex, right? The containers, these applications in the cloud native space, there are morphous, they're living things, right? The metadata is different from one day to the next, the data itself is different from when one day the net to the next. So that's, what's so great about Trillium. It's such an elegant solution. It allows your, reorchestrate a point in time when and where you need it. So yes. You have to be able to recover. Yes. It's not a matter of if, but when. Right. And that's why recovery is part of that security conversation. Um, you know, I I've seen insurance companies, right? They want to provide insurance for ransomware. Well, you're gonna have enough attacks where they don't want to provide that insurance anymore. It costs too much. The investment that you make with, with Trulio will save you so much more money down the road. Right. Uh, who's our product manager actually gave a talk about that yesterday and the economics were really interesting. >>Hmm. So how has the recovery methodology who participates in that changed over time? As, as we, you know, as we are in this world of developer operators who take on greater responsibility for infrastructure things. Yeah. Who's, who's responsible for backup and recovery today and how, how has that changed >>Everyone? Everyone's responsible. So, you know, we rewind however many years, right? And it used predominantly CIS admin that was in charge of backup administrator, but a ticket in your backup administrator, right. Cloud native space and application lifecycle management is a team sport. Security is a team sport. It's a holistic approach. Right? So when you think about the, the team that you put out on the field, whether your DevOps, your SRE dev sec ops it ops, you're all going to have a need for point in time, we orchestration for various things and the term may not be backup. Right? It's something else. And maybe for test dev purposes, maybe for forensic purposes, maybe for Dr. Right. So I say it's a team sport and security as a holistic thing that everyone has to get on board with >>The three orchestration is exactly the right way to talk about absolute these processes. It's not just recovery, you're rebuilding >>Yeah. A complex environment. It's always changing. >>That's one of the guarantees. It's always going to be changing >>That much. >>Can you give us a, leave us with a customer example that you think really articulates the value of what Trulio delivers? >>Yeah. So it's interesting. I won't say who the customer is, but I'll tell you it's in the defense agency, it's a defense agency. Uh, they have developers all over the place. Uh, they need self-service capabilities for the tenants to mind their own backups. So you don't need to contact someone, right. They can build, they have one >>Dashboard, single pane of glass or truth to manage all their Corinthians applications. And it gives them that infrastructure to progress whether your dev ops or not your it ops, uh, this, this group has rolled it out across the nation and they're using in their work with very sensitive environments. So now we have they're back. And what are some of the big business outcomes that they're achieving already? >>The big business outcomes? Well, so operational efficiencies are definitely first and foremost, right? Empowering the end user with more tools, right? Because we've seen this shift left and people talking about dev ops, right. So how do I empower them to do more? So I see that operational efficiency, the recoverability aspect, God forbid, something goes wrong. How do you, how do you do that in the cost of that? Um, and then also, um, being native to the environment, the Trillium solution is built for Kubernetes. It is built on go. It is a Qubit stateless Kubernetes application. So you have to have seamless integration into these environments. And then going back to what I was saying before, knowing peace of mind, the credibility aspect, that it is blessed by, you know, red hat and suicide Mirandas and all these other, other folks in the field, um, that you can guarantee it's going to work >>Well, that helps to give your customers the confidence that there, and that confidence might sound trivial. It's not, especially when we're talking about security, it's not at all that, that's a, that's a big business outcome for you guys. When a customer says, I'm confident I have the right solution, we're going to be able to recover when things happen, we try, we fully trust in the solution that we're, >>And we'll bring more into production faster that helps everyone out here too. Right? It feels good. You have that credibility. You have that assurance that I can move faster and I can move into different clouds faster. And that's, we're gonna continue to put, we're gonna continue to push the envelope there. You know, coming a, as we look into, you know, going forward, we're going to come out with other capabilities. That's going to continue to differentiate ourselves from, from folks. Uh, we'll, we'll talk about in time, the ability to propagate data across multiple clouds simultaneously. So making RTOs look at the split seconds and minutes. And so I hope that we can have that conversation next time we were together, because it's really exciting. >>Any, any CTA that you want to give to the audience, any, any, uh, like upcoming or recent webinars that you think they would be really benefit from? >>I guess one thing I put out there is that, um, I understand that people need to continuously learn. There is a skillset hole in, in this market. We can, we understand that, you know, and people look to us as not just a vendor, but a partner. And a lot of the questions that we do get are how do I do this? Or how do I do that? Engage us, ask us to consume our product is really, really easy. You can download from the website or go to an, you know, red hats operator hub, or go to the marketplace over at Susa, and let's begin to begin and we're here to help. And so reach out, right? We want everyone to be successful. >>Awesome. trillium.io. David, thank you for joining us. This has been an exciting conversation. Good >>To see you all. >>Likewise. Good to see you in person take care. We look forward to the next time we see you when unpacking what other great things are going on on Trulia. We appreciate your >>Time. Thank you so much. Good to be here >>For David's fie and David Nicholson, the two Davids I'm going to sandwich. I'm Lisa Martin, you we're coming to you live from Los Angeles. This is Q con cloud native con north America, 2021. Stick around our next guest joins us momentarily.

>>Hello and welcome back to the cubes coverage of dr khan 2021. I'm john for your host of the cube. Great guests here cube alumni Stephen Chin, vice president of developer relations for jay frog Stephen, great to see you again this remote this time this last time was in person. Our last physical event. We had you in the queue but great to see you. Thanks for coming in remotely. >>No, no, I'm very glad to be here. And also it was, it was awesome to be in person at our s a conference when we last talked and the last year has been super exciting with a whole bunch of crazy things like the I. P. O. And doing virtual events. So we've, we're transitioning to the new normal. We're looking forward to things getting to be hybrid. >>Great success with jay frog. We've been documenting the history of this company, very developer focused the successful I. P. O. And just the continuation that you guys have transitioned beautifully to virtual because you know, developer company, it runs virtual, but also you guys have been all about simplicity for developers and and we've been talking for many, many years with you guys on this. This is the theme that dr khan again, this is a developer conference, not so much an operator conference, but more of a deva deV developer focused. You guys have been there from the beginning, um nationally reported on it. But talk about jay Frog and the Doctor partnership and why is this event so important for you? >>Yeah. So I think um like like you said, jay Frog has and always is a developer focused company. So we we build tools and things which which focus on developer use cases, how you get your code to production and streamlining the entire devoPS pipeline. And one of the things which which we believe very strongly in and I think we're very aligned with with doctor on this is having secure clean upstream dependencies for your Docker images for other package and language dependencies and um you know, with the announcement of dr khan and dr Hubbs model changing, we wanted to make sure that we have the best integration with doctor and also the best support for our customers on with Docker hub. So one of the things we did strategically is um, we um combined our platforms so um you can get the best in class developer tools for managing images from Docker. Um everyone uses their um desktop tools for for building and managing your containers and then you can push them right to the best container registry for managing Docker Images, which is the jay frog platform. And just like Docker has free tools available for developers to use. We have a free tier which integrates nicely what their offerings and one of the things which we collaborate with them on is for anybody using our free tier in the cloud. Um there's there's no limits on the Docker images. You can pull no rate limiting, no throttling. So it just makes a clean seamless developer experience to to manage your cloud native projects and applications. >>What's the role of the container registry in cloud NATO? You brought that up? But can you just expand on that point? >>Yeah. So I think when you when you're doing deployments to production, you want to make sure both that you have the best security so that you're making sure that you're scanning and checking for vulnerabilities in your application and also that you have a complete um traceability. Basically you need a database in a log of everything you're pushing out to production. So what container registries allow you to do is um they keep all of the um releases all of the Docker images which are pushing out. You can go back and roll back to a previous version. You can see exactly what's included in those Docker images. And we jay frog, we have a product called X ray which does deep scanning of container images. So it'll go into the Docker Image, it'll go into any packages installed, it'll go into application libraries and it does kind of this onion peel apart of your entire document image to figure out exactly what you're using. Are there any vulnerabilities? And the funny thing about about Docker Images is um because of the number of libraries and packages and installed things which you haven't given Docker Image. If you just take your released Docker Image and let it sit on the shelf for a month, you have thousands of vulnerabilities, just just buy it um, by accruing from different reported zero day vulnerabilities over time. So it's extremely important that you, you know what those are, you can evaluate the risk to your organization and then mitigated as quickly as possible. If there is anything which could impact your customers, >>you bring up a great point right there and that is ultimately a developer thing that's been, that's generational, you know what generation you come from and that's always the problem getting the patches in the old days, getting a new code updated now when you have cloud native, that's more important than ever. And I also want to get your thoughts on this because you guys have been early on shift left two years ago, shift left was not it was not a new thing for you guys ever. So you got shift left building security at the point of coding, but you're bringing up a whole another thing which is okay automation. How do you make it? So the developments nothing stop what they're doing and then get back and say, okay, what's out there and my containers. So so how do you simplify that role? Because that's where the partnership, I think really people are looking to you guys and Dakar on is how do you make my life easier? Bottom line, what's it, what's it, what's it about? >>Yeah. So I I think when you when you're looking at trying to manage um large applications which are deployed to big kubernetes clusters and and how you have kind of this, this um all this infrastructure behind it. One of the one of the challenges is how do you know what you have that in production? Um So what, how do you know exactly what's released and what dependencies are out there and how easily can you trace those back? Um And one of the things which we're gonna be talking about at um swamp up next week is managing the overall devops lifecycle from code all the way through to production. Um And we we have a great platform for doing package management for doing vulnerability scanning, for doing um ci cd but you you need a bunch of other tools too. So you need um integrations like docker so you can get trusted packages into your system. You need integrations with observe ability tools like data, dog, elastic and you need it some tools for doing incident management like Patriot duty. And what we've, what we've built out um is we built out an ecosystem of partner integrations which with the J frog platform at the center lets you manage your entire and and life cycle of um devops infrastructure. And this this addresses security. It addresses the need to do quick patches and fixes and production and it kind of stitches together all the tools which all of the successful companies are using to manage their fast moving continuous release cycle, um and puts all that information together with seamless integration with even developer tools which um which folks are using on a day to day basis, like slack jeer A and M. S. Teams. >>So the bottom line then for the developer is you take the best of breed stuff and put it, make it all work together easily. That right? >>Yeah. I mean it's like it's seamless from you. You've got an incidents, you click a button, it sticks Ajira ticket in for you to resolve. Um you can tie that with the code, commits what you're doing and then directly to the security vulnerability which is reported by X ray. So it stitches all these different tools and technologies together for a for a seamless developer experience. And I think the great relationship we have with Docker um offers developers again, this this best in class container management um and trusted images combined with the world's best container registry. >>Awesome. Well let's get into that container issue products. I think that's the fascinating and super important thing that you guys solve a big problem for. So I gotta ask you, what are the security risks of using unverified and outdated Docker containers? Could you share your thoughts on what people should pay attention to because if they got unverified and outdated Docker containers, you mentioned vulnerabilities. What are those specific risks to them? >>Yeah, so I there's there's a lot of um different instances where you can see in the news or even some of the new government mandates coming out that um if you're not taking the right measures to secure your production applications and to patch critical vulnerabilities and libraries you're using, um you end up with um supply chain vulnerability risks like what happened to solar winds and what's been fueling the recent government mandates. So I think there's a there's a whole class of of different vulnerabilities which um bad actors can exploit. It can actually go quite deep with um folks um exploiting application software. Neither your your company or in other people's systems with with the move to cloud native, we also have heavily interconnected systems with a lot of different attack points from the container to the application level to the operating system level. So there's multiple different attack vectors for people to get into your software. And the best defense is an organization against security. Vulnerabilities is to know about them quickly and to mitigate them and fix them in production as quickly as possible. And this requires having a fast continuous deployment strategy for how you can update your code quickly, very quick identification of vulnerabilities with tools like X ray and other security scanning tools, um and just just good um integration with tools developers are using because at the end of the day it's the developers who both are picking the libraries and dependencies which are gonna be pushed into production and also they're the ones who have to react and and fix it when there's a uh production incident, >>you know, machine learning and automation. And it's always, I love that tech because it's always kind of cool because it's it's devops in action, but you know, it's it's not like a silver bullet, your machine, your machine learning is only as good as your your data and the code is written on staying with automation. You're not automating the right things or or wrong things. It's all it's all subjective based on what you're doing and you know Beauty's in the eye of the beholder when you do things like that. So I wanna hear your thoughts on on automation because that's really been a big part of the story here, both on simplicity and making the load lighter for developers. So when you have to go out and look at modifying code updates and looking at say um unverified containers or one that gets a little bit of a hair on it with with with more updates that are needed as we say, what do you what's the role of automation? How do you guys view that and how do you talk to the developers out there when posturing for a strategy on and a playbook for automation? >>Yeah, I think you're you're touching on one of the most critical parts of of any good devops um platform is from end to end. Everything should be automated with the right quality gates inserted at different points so that if there's a um test failure, if you have a build failure, if you have a security vulnerability, the the automatic um points in there will be triggered so that your release process will be stopped um that you have automated rollbacks in production um so that you can make sure that their issues which affect your customers, you can quickly roll back and once you get into production um having the right tools for observe ability so that you can actually sift through what is a essentially a big data problem. So with large systems you get so much data coming back from your application, from the production systems, from all these different sources that even an easy way to sift through and identify what are the messages coming back telling you that there's a problem that there's a real issue that you need to address versus what's just background noise about different different processes or different application alerts, which really don't affect the security of the functionality of your applications. So I think this this end to end automation gives you the visibility and the single pane of glass to to know how to manage and diagnose your devops infrastructure. >>You know, steve you bring up a great point. I love this conversation because it always highlights to me why I love uh Coop Con and Cloud Native con part of the C N C F and dr khan, because to me it's like a microcosm of two worlds that are living together. Right? You got I think Coop khan has proven its more operated but not like operator operator, developer operators. And you got dr khan almost pure software development, but now becoming operators. So you've got that almost those two worlds are fusing together where they are running together. You have operating concerns like well the Parachute open, will it work? And how do I roll back these roll back? These are like operating questions that now developers got to think about. So I think we're seeing this kind of confluence of true devops next level where you can't you can be just a developer and have a little bit of opposite you and not be a problem. Right? Or or get down under the under the hood and be an operator whenever you want. So they're seeing a flex. What's your thoughts on this is just more about my observation kind of real time here? >>Yeah, so um I think it's an interesting, obviously observation on the industry and I think you know, I've been doing DEVOPS for for a long time now and um I started as a developer who needed to push to production, needed to have the ability to to manage releases and packages and be able to automate everything. Um and this naturally leads you on a path of doing more operations, being able to manage your production, being able to have fewer incidents and issues. Um I think DEVOPS has evolved to become a very complicated um set of tools and problems which it solves and even kubernetes as an example. Um It's not easy to set up like setting up a kubernetes cluster and managing, it is a full time job now that said, I think what you're seeing now is more and more companies are shifting back to developers as a focus because teams and developers are the kingmakers ends with the rise of cloud computing, you don't need a full operations team, you don't need a huge infrastructure stack, you can you can easily get set up in the cloud on on amazon google or as your and start deploying today to production from from a small team straight from code to production. And I think as we evolve and as we get better tools, simpler ways of managing your deployments of managing your packages, this makes it possible for um development teams to do that entire site lifecycle from code through to production with good quality checks with um good security and also with the ability to manage simple production incidents all by themselves. So I think that's that's coming where devoPS is shifting back to development teams. >>It's great to have your leadership and your experience. All right there. That's a great call out, great observation, nice gym there. I think that's right on. I think to get your thoughts if you don't mind going next level because you're, you're nailing what I see is the successful companies having these teams that could be and and workflows and have a mix of a team. I was talking about Dana Lawson who was the VP of engineering get up and she and I were riffing on this idea that you don't have to have a monolithic team because you've got you no longer have a monolithic environment. So you have this microservices and now you can have these, I'm gonna call micro teams, but you're starting to see an SRE on the team, that's the developer. Right? So this idea of having an SRE department maybe for big companies, that could be cool if you're hyper scalar, but these development teams are having certain formations. What's your observation to your customer base in terms of how your customers are organizing? Because I think you nailed the success form of how teams are executing because it's so much more agile, you get the reliability, you need to have security baked in, you want end to end visibility because you got services starting and stopping. How are teams? How are you seeing developers? What's the state of the art in your mind for formation? >>Yeah, so I think um we we work with a lot of the biggest companies who were really at the bleeding edge of innovation and devoPS and continuous delivery. And when you look at those teams, they have, they have very, very small teams, um supporting thousands of developers teams um building and deploying applications. So um when you think of of SRE and deVOPS focus there is actually a very small number of those folks who typically support humongous organizations and I think what we're hearing from them is their increasingly getting requirements from the teams who want to be self service, right? They want to be able to take their applications, have simple platforms to deploy it themselves to manage things. Um They don't they don't want to go through heavy way processes, they wanted to be automated and lightweight and I think this is this is putting pressure on deVOPS teams to to evolve and to adopt more platforms and services which allow developers to to do things themselves. And I think over time um this doesn't this doesn't get rid of the need for for devops and for SRE roles and organizations but it it changes because now they become the enablers of success and good development teams. It's it's kind of like um like how I. T. Organizations they support you with automated rollouts with all these tools rather than in person as much as they can do with automation. Um That helps the entire organization. I think devops is becoming the same thing where they're now simplifying and automating how developers can be self service and organizations. >>And I think it's a great evolution to because that makes total sense because it is kind of like what the I. T. Used to do in the old days but its the scale is different, the services are different, the deVOPS tools are different and so they really are enabling not just the cost center there really driving value. Um and this brings up the whole next threat. I'd love to get your thoughts because you guys are, have been doing this for developers for a while. Tools versus platform because you know, this whole platform where we're a platform were control plane, there's still a need for tooling for developers. How do we thread the needle between? What's, what's good for a tool? What's good for a platform? >>Yeah, So I I think that um, you know, there's always a lot of focus and it's, it's easier if you can take an end to end platform, which solves a bunch of different use cases together. But um, I I think a lot of folks, um, when you're looking at what you need and how you want to apply, um, devops practices to your organization, you ideally you want to be able to use best in breed tools to be able to solve exactly what your use cases. And this is one of the reasons why as a company with jay frog, we we try to be as open as possible to integrations with the entire vendor ecosystem. So um, it doesn't matter what ci cd tool you're using, you could be using Jenkins circle, ci spinnaker checked on, it doesn't matter what observe ability platform you're using in production, it doesn't matter what um tools you're using for collaboration. We, we support that whole ecosystem and we make it possible for you to select the the best of breed tools and technologies that you need to be successful as an organization. And I think the risk is if, if you, if you kind of accept vendor lock in on a single platform or or a single cloud platform even um then you're, you're not getting the best in breed tools and technologies which you need to stay ahead of the curve and devops is a very, very fast moving um, um, discipline along with all the cloud native technologies which you use for application development and for production. So if you're, if you're not staying at the bleeding edge and kind of pushing things forward, then you're then you're behind and if you're behind, you're not be able to keep up with the releases, the deployments, you need to be secure. So I think what you see is the leading organizations are pushing the envelope on on security, on deployment and they're they're using the best tools in the industry to make that happen. >>Stephen great to have you on the cube. I want to just get your thoughts on jay frog and the doctor partnership to wrap this up. Could you take them in to explain what's the most important thing that developers should pay attention to when it comes to security for Docker images? >>Yeah. So I think when you're when you're developer and you're looking at your your security strategy, um you want tools that help you that come to you and that help you. So you want things which are going to give you alerts in your I. D. With things which are going to trigger your in your Ci cd and your build process. And we should make it easy for you to identify mitigate and release um things which will help you do that. So we we provide a lot of those tools with jay frog and our doctor partnership. And I think if you if you look at our push towards helping developers to become more productive, build better applications and more secure applications, this is something the entire industry needs for us to address. What's increasingly a risk to software development, which is a higher profile vulnerabilities, which are affecting the entire industry. >>Great stuff. Big fan of jay frog watching you guys be so successful, you know, making things easy for developers is uh, and simpler and reducing the steps it takes to do things as a, I say, is the classic magic formula for any company, Make it easier, reduce the steps it takes to do something and make it simple. Um, good success formula. Great stuff. Great to have you on um for a minute or two, take a minute to plug what's going on in jay frog and share what's the latest increase with the company, what you guys are doing? Obviously public company. Great place to work, getting awards for that. Give the update on jay frog, put a plug in. >>Yeah. And also dr Frog, I've been having a lot of fun working at J frog, it's very, very fast growing. We have a lot of awesome announcements at swamp up. Um like the partnerships were doing um secure release bundles for deployments and just just a range of advances. I think the number of new features and innovation we put into the product in the past six months since I. P. O. Is astounding. So we're really trying to push the edge on devops um and we're also gonna be announcing and talking about stuff that dr khan as well and continue to invest in the cloud native and the devops ecosystem with our support of the continuous delivery foundation and the C. N C F, which I'm also heavily involved in. So it's it's exciting time to be in the devoPS industry and I think you can see that we're really helping software developers to improve their art to become better, better at release. Again, managing production applications >>and the ecosystem is just flourishing. It's only the beginning and again Making bring the craft back in Agile, which is a super big theme this year. Stephen. Great, great to see you. Thanks for dropping those gems and insights here on the Cube here at Dr. 2021 virtual. Thanks for coming on. >>Yeah. Thank you john. >>Okay. Dr. 2020 coverage virtual. I'm John for your host of the Cube. Thanks for watching. Mhm. Mhm. Yeah.

>>thank you everyone for joining. I'm here today to talk about English controllers. AP Gateways and service mention communities three very hot topics that are also frequently confusing. So I'm Richard Lee, founder CEO of Ambassador Labs, formerly known as Data Wire. We sponsor a number of popular open source projects that are part of the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, including telepresence and Ambassador, which is a kubernetes native AP gateway. And most of what I'm going to talk about today is related to our work around ambassador. Uh huh. So I want to start by talking about application architecture, er and workflow on kubernetes and how applications that are being built on kubernetes really differ from how they used to be built. So when you're building applications on kubernetes, the traditional architectures is the very famous monolith, and the monolith is a central piece of software. It's one giant thing that you build, deployed run, and the value of a monolith is it's really simple. And if you think about the monolithic development process, more importantly, is the architecture er is really reflecting that workflow. So with the monolith, you have a very centralized development process. You tend not to release too frequently because you have all these different development teams that are working on different features, and then you decide in advance when you're going to release that particular pieces offering. Everyone works towards that release train, and you have specialized teams. You have a development team which has all your developers. You have a Q A team. You have a release team, you have an operations team, so that's your typical development organization and workflow with a monolithic application. As organization shift to micro >>services, they adopt a very different development paradigm. It's a decentralized development paradigm where you have lots of different independent teams that are simultaneously working on different parts of the application, and those application components are really shipped as independent services. And so you really have a continuous release cycle because instead of synchronizing all your teams around one particular vehicle, you have so many different release vehicles that each team is able to ship a soon as they're ready. And so we call this full cycle development because that team is >>really responsible, not just for the coding of that micro service, but also the testing and the release and operations of that service. Um, >>so this is a huge change, particularly with workflow. And there's a lot of implications for this, s o. I have a diagram here that just try to visualize a little bit more the difference in organization >>with the monolith. You have everyone who works on this monolith with micro services. You have the yellow folks work on the Yellow Micro Service, and the purple folks work on the Purple Micro Service and maybe just one person work on the Orange Micro Service and so forth. >>So there's a lot more diversity around your teams and your micro services, and it lets you really adjust the granularity of your development to your specific business need. So how do users actually access your micro services? Well, with the monolith, it's pretty straightforward. You have one big thing. So you just tell the Internet while I have this one big thing on the Internet, make sure you send all your travel to the big thing. But when you have micro services and you have a bunch of different micro services, how do users actually access these micro services? So the solution is an AP gateway, so the gateway consolidates all access to your micro services, so requests come from the Internet. They go to your AP gateway. The AP Gateway looks at these requests, and based on the nature of these requests, it routes them to the appropriate micro service. And because the AP gateway is centralizing thing access to all the micro services, it also really helps you simplify authentication, observe ability, routing all these different crosscutting concerns. Because instead of implementing authentication in each >>of your micro services, which would be a maintenance nightmare and a security nightmare, you put all your authentication in your AP gateway. So if you look at this world of micro services, AP gateways are really important part of your infrastructure, which are really necessary and pre micro services. Pre kubernetes Unhappy Gateway Well valuable was much more optional. So that's one of the really big things around. Recognizing with the micro services architecture er, you >>really need to start thinking much more about maybe a gateway. The other consideration within a P A gateway is around your management workflow because, as I mentioned, each team is actually response for their own micro service, which also means each team needs to be able to independently manage the gateway. So Team A working on that micro service needs to be able to tell the AP at Gateway. This this is >>how I want you to write. Request to my micro service, and the Purple team needs to be able to say something different for how purple requests get right into the Purple Micro Service. So that's also really important consideration as you think about AP gateways and how it fits in your architecture. Because it's not just about your architecture. It's also about your workflow. So let me talk about a PR gateways on kubernetes. I'm going to start by talking about ingress. So ingress is the process of getting traffic from the Internet to services inside the cluster kubernetes. From an architectural perspective, it actually has a requirement that all the different pods in a kubernetes cluster needs to communicate with each other. And as a consequence, what Kubernetes does is it creates its own private network space for all these pods, and each pod gets its own I p address. So this makes things very, very simple for inter pod communication. Cooper in any is, on the other hand, does not say very much around how traffic should actually get into the cluster. So there's a lot of detail around how traffic actually, once it's in the cluster, how you routed around the cluster and it's very opinionated about how this works but getting traffic into the cluster. There's a lot of different options on there's multiple strategies pot i p. There's ingress. There's low bounce of resource is there's no port. >>I'm not gonna go into exhaustive detail on all these different options on. I'm going to just talk about the most common approach that most organizations take today. So the most common strategy for routing is coupling an external load balancer with an ingress controller. And so an external load balancer can be >>ah, Harvard load balancer. It could be a virtual machine. It could be a cloud load balancer. But the key requirement for an external load balancer >>is to be able to attack to stable I people he address so that you can actually map a domain name and DNS to that particular external load balancer and that external load balancer, usually but not always well, then route traffic and pass that traffic straight through to your ingress controller, and then your English controller takes that traffic and then routes it internally inside >>kubernetes to the various pods that are running your micro services. There are >>other approaches, but this is the most common approach. And the reason for this is that the alternative approaches really required each of your micro services to be exposed outside of the cluster, which causes a lot of challenges around management and deployment and maintenance that you generally want to avoid. So I've been talking about in English controller. What exactly is an English controller? So in English controller is an application that can process rules according to the kubernetes English specifications. Strangely, Kubernetes is not actually ship with a built in English controller. Um, I say strangely because you think, well, getting traffic into a cluster is probably a pretty common requirement. And it is. It turns out that this is complex enough that there's no one size fits all English controller. And so there is a set of ingress >>rules that are part of the kubernetes English specifications at specified how traffic gets route into the cluster >>and then you need a proxy that can actually route this traffic to these different pods. And so an increase controller really translates between the kubernetes configuration and the >>proxy configuration and common proxies for ingress. Controllers include H a proxy envoy Proxy or Engine X. So >>let me talk a little bit more about these common proxies. So all these proxies and there >>are many other proxies I'm just highlighting what I consider to be probably the most three most well established proxies. Uh, h a proxy, uh, Engine X and envoy proxies. So H a proxy is managed by a plastic technology start in 2000 and one, um, the H a proxy organization actually creates an ingress controller. And before they kept created ingress controller, there was an open source project called Voyager, which built in ingress Controller on >>H a proxy engine X managed by engine. Xing, subsequently acquired by F five Also open source started a little bit later. The proxy in 2004. And there's the engine Xing breast, which is a community project. Um, that's the most popular a zwelling the engine Next Inc Kubernetes English project which is maintained by the company. This is a common source of confusion because sometimes people will think that they're using the ingress engine X ingress controller, and it's not clear if they're using this commercially supported version or the open source version, and they actually, although they have very similar names, uh, they actually have different functionality. Finally. Envoy Proxy, the newest entrant to the proxy market originally developed by engineers that lift the ride sharing company. They subsequently donated it to the cloud. Native Computing Foundation Envoy has become probably the most popular cloud native proxy. It's used by Ambassador uh, the A P a. Gateway. It's using the SDO service mash. It's using VM Ware Contour. It's been used by Amazon and at mesh. It's probably the most common proxy in the cloud native world. So, as I mentioned, there's a lot of different options for ingress. Controller is the most common. Is the engine X ingress controller, not the one maintained by Engine X Inc but the one that's part of the Cooper Nannies project? Um, ambassador is the most popular envoy based option. Another common option is the SDO Gateway, which is directly integrated with the SDO mesh, and that's >>actually part of Dr Enterprise. So with all these choices around English controller. How do you actually decide? Well, the reality is the ingress specifications very limited. >>And the reason for this is that getting traffic into the cluster there's a lot of nuance into how you want to do that. And it turns out it's very challenging to create a generic one size fits all specifications because of the vast diversity of implementations and choices that are available to end users. And so you don't see English specifying anything around resilience. So if >>you want to specify a time out or rate limiting, it's not possible in dresses really limited to support for http. So if you're using GSPC or Web sockets, you can't use the ingress specifications, um, different ways of routing >>authentication. The list goes on and on. And so what happens is that different English controllers extend the core ingress specifications to support these use cases in different ways. Yeah, so engine X ingress they actually use a combination of config maps and the English Resource is plus custom annotations that extend the ingress to really let you configure a lot of additional extensions. Um, that is exposing the engineers ingress with Ambassador. We actually use custom resource definitions different CRTs that extend kubernetes itself to configure ambassador. And one of the benefits of the CRD approach is that we can create a standard schema that's actually validated by kubernetes. So when you do a coup control apply of an ambassador CRD coop Control can immediately validate and tell >>you if you're actually applying a valid schema in format for your ambassador configuration on As I previously mentioned, ambassadors built on envoy proxy, >>it's the Gateway also uses C R D s they can to use a necks tension of the service match CRD s as opposed to dedicated Gateway C R D s on again sdo Gateway is built on envoy privacy. So I've been talking a lot about English controllers. But the title of my talk was really about AP gateways and English controllers and service smashed. So what's the difference between an English controller and an AP gateway? So to recap, an immigrant controller processes kubernetes English routing rules and a P I. G. Wave is a central point for managing all your traffic to community services. It typically has additional functionality such as authentication, observe, ability, a >>developer portal and so forth. So what you find Is that not all Ap gateways or English controllers? Because some MP gateways don't support kubernetes at all. S o eso you can't make the can't be ingress controllers and not all ingrates. Controllers support the functionality such as authentication, observe, ability, developer portal >>that you would typically associate with an AP gateway. So, generally speaking, um, AP gateways that run on kubernetes should be considered a super set oven ingress controller. But if the A p a gateway doesn't run on kubernetes, then it's an AP gateway and not an increase controller. Yeah, so what's the difference between a service Machin and AP Gateway? So an AP gateway is really >>focused on traffic into and out of a cluster, so the political term for this is North South traffic. A service mesh is focused on traffic between services in a cluster East West traffic. All service meshes need >>an AP gateway, so it's Theo includes a basic ingress or a P a gateway called the SDO gateway, because a service mention needs traffic from the Internet to be routed into the mesh >>before it can actually do anything Omelet. Proxy, as I mentioned, is the most common proxy for both mesh and gateways. Dr. Enterprise provides an envoy based solution out of the box. >>Uh, SDO Gateway. The reason Dr does this is because, as I mentioned, kubernetes doesn't come package with an ingress. Uh, it makes sense for Dr Enterprise to provide something that's easy to get going. No extra steps required because with Dr Enterprise, you can deploy it and get going. Get exposed on the Internet without any additional software. Dr. Enterprise can also be easily upgraded to ambassador because they're both built on envoy and interest. Consistent routing. Semantics. It also with Ambassador. You get >>greater security for for single sign on. There's a lot of security by default that's configured directly into Ambassador Better control over TLS. Things like that. Um And then finally, there's commercial support that's actually available for Ambassador. SDO is an open source project that has a has a very broad community but no commercial support options. So to recap, ingress controllers and AP gateways are critical pieces of your cloud native stack. So make sure that you choose something that works well for you. >>And I think a lot of times organizations don't think critically enough about the AP gateway until they're much further down the Cuban and a journey. Considerations around how to choose that a p a gateway include functionality such as How does it do with traffic management and >>observe ability? Doesn't support the protocols that you need also nonfunctional requirements such as Does it integrate with your workflow? Do you offer commercial support? Can you get commercial support for this on a P? A. Gateway is focused on north south traffic, so traffic into and out of your kubernetes cluster. A service match is focused on East West traffic, so traffic between different services inside the same cluster. Dr. Enterprise includes SDO Gateway out of the box easy to use but can also be extended with ambassador for enhanced functionality and security. So thank you for your time. Hope this was helpful in understanding the difference between a P gateways, English controllers and service meshes and how you should be thinking about that on your kubernetes deployment

(bright upbeat music) >> Announcer: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders around the globe, these are Cloud Native Insights. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman, the host of Cloud Native Insights. We talk about cloud native, we're talking about how customers can take advantage of the innovation and agility that's out there in the clouds, one of the undercurrents, not so hidden if you've been watching the program so far. We've talked a bit about serverless, say something that's helping remove the friction, allowed developers to take advantage of technology and definitely move really fast. So I'm really happy to welcome to the program, for coming from Fauna. First of all, I have the CTO and Co-founder, who's Evan Weaver. And also joining him is the new CEO Eric Berg. They said, both from Fauna, talking serverless, talking data as an API and talking the modern database. So first of all, thank you both for joining us. >> Thanks for having us Stu. >> Hi, good to be here. >> All right, so Evan, we're going to start with you. I love talking to founders always. If you could take us back a little bit, Fauna as a project first before it was a company, you of course were an early employee at Twitter. So if you could just bring us back a little bit, what created the Fauna project and bring us through a brief history if you would. >> So I was employee 15 and Twitter, I joined in 2008. And I had a database background, I was sort of a performance analyst and worked on Ruby on Rails sites at CNET networks with the team that went on to found GitHub actually. Now I went to Twitter 'cause I wanted Twitter the product to stay alive. And for no greater ambition than that. And I ended up running the back end engineering team there and building out all the distributed storage for the core business objects, tweets, timelines, the social graph, image storage, the cache, that kind of thing. And this was early in the cloud era. API's were new and weird. You couldn't get Amazon EC2 off the shelf easily. We were racking hardware and code ancient center. And there were no databases or platforms for data of any kind. They really let us the Twitter engineering team focus on building the product. And we did a lot of open source work there. Some of which has influenced Fauna, originally, Twitter's open source was hosted on the Fauna GitHub account, which predated Twitter like you mentioned. And I was there for four years build out the team, basically scaled the site, especially scaled the Twitter.com API. And we just never found a platform which was suitable for what we were trying to accomplish. Like a lot of what Twitter did was itself a platform. We had developers all over the world using the Twitter API to interact with tweets. And we're frustrated that we basically had to become specialists in data systems because there wasn't a data API, we can just build the product on. And ultimately, then data API that we wished we had, is now Fauna. >> Well, it's a story we've loved hearing. And it's fascinating one, is that the marketplace wasn't doing what we needed. Often open source is a piece of that, how do we scale that out? How do we build that? Realized that the problem that you have is what others have. And hey, maybe there's a company. So could you give us that transition, Fauna as a product, as a company, where was it understood that, hey, there's a lot of other people that can take advantage from some of the same tools that you needed before. >> I mean, we saw it in the developers working with the Twitter platform. We weren't like, your traditional database experiences, either manage cloud or on-prem, you have to administrate the machine, and you're responsible for its security and its availability and its location and backups and all that kind of thing. People building against Twitter's API weren't doing that. They're just using the web interface that we provided to them. It was our responsibility as a platform provider. We saw lots of successful companies being built on the API, but obviously, it was limited specifically to interacting with tweets. And we also saw peers from Twitter who went on to found companies, other people we knew in the startup scene, struggling to just get something out the door, because they had to do all this undifferentiated heavy lifting, which didn't contribute to their product at all, if they did succeed and they struggled with scalability problems and security problems and that kind of thing. And I think it's been a drag on the market overall, we're essentially, in cloud services. We're more or less built for the enterprise for mature and mid market and enterprise companies that already had resources to put behind these things, then wasn't sort of the cloud equivalent of the web, where individuals, people with fewer resources, people starting new projects, people doing more speculative work, which is what we originally and Jack was doing at Twitter, it just get going and build dynamic web applications. So I think the move to cloud kind of left this gap, which ultimately was starting to be filled with serverless, in particular, that we sort of backtracked from the productivity of the '90s with the lamp era, you can do everything on a single machine, nobody bothered you, you didn't have to pay anyone, just RPM install and you're good to go. To this Kubernetes, containers, cloud, multi site, multi region world where it's just too hard to get a basic product out the door and now serverless is sort of brought that around full circle, we see people building those products again, because the tools have probably matured. >> Well, Evan, I really appreciate you helping set the table. I think you've clearly articulated some of the big challenges we're seeing in the industry right now. Eric, I want to bring you into the conversation. So you relatively recently brought in as CEO, came from Okta a company that is also doing quite well. So give us if you could really the business opportunity here, serverless is not exactly the most mature market, there's a lot of interest excitement, we've been tracking it for years and see some good growth. But what brought you in and what do you see is that big opportunity. >> Yeah, absolutely, so the first thing I'll comment on is what, when I was looking for my next opportunity, what was really important is to, I think you can build some of the most interesting businesses and companies when there are significant technological shifts happening. Okta, which you mentioned, took advantage of the fact of SaaS application, really being adopted by enterprise, which back in 2009, wasn't an exactly a known thing. And similarly, when I look at Fauna, the move that Evan talked about, which is really the maturation of serverless. And therefore, that as an underpinning for a new type of applications is really just starting to take hold. And so then there creates opportunities that for a variety of different people in that stack that to build interesting businesses and obviously, the databases is an incredibly important part of that. And the other thing I've mentioned is that, a lot of people don't know this but there's a very good chunk of Okta's business, which is what they call their customer identity business, which is basically, servicing of identity is a set of API's that people can integrate into their applications. And you see a lot of enterprises using this as a part of their digital transformation effort. And so I was very familiar with that model and how prevalent, how much investment, how much aid was out there for customers, as every company becoming a software company and needing to rethink their business and build applications. And so you put those two trends together and you just see that serverless is going to be able to meet the needs of a lot of those companies. And as Evan mentioned, databases in general and traditionally have come with a lot of complexity from an operational perspective. And so when you look at the technology and some of the problems that Fauna has solved, in terms of really removing all of that operational burden when it comes to starting with and scaling a database, not only locally but globally. It's sort of a new, no brainer, everybody would love to have a database that scales, that is reliable and secure that they don't have to manage. >> Yeah, Eric, one follow up question for you. I think back a few years ago, you talked to companies and it's like, okay, database is the center of my business. It's a big expense. I have a team that works on it. There have been dealt so much change in the database market than most customers I talked to, is I have lots of solutions out there. I'm using Mongo, I've got Snowflake, Amazon has flavors of things I'm looking at. Snowflake just filed for their IPO, so we see the growth in the space. So maybe if you could just obviously serverless is a differentiation. There's a couple of solutions out there, like from Amazon or whether Aurora serverless solution but how does Fauna look to differentiate. Could you give us a little bit of kind of compared to the market out there? >> Sure, yeah, so at the high level, just to clarify, at the super high level for databases, there tends to be two types operational databases and then data warehouse which Snowflake is an example of a data warehouse. And as you probably already know, the former CEO of Snowflake is actually a chairman of Fauna. So Bob Muglia. So we have a lot of good insight into that business. But Fauna is very much on the operational database side. So the other half of that market, if you will, so really focused on being the core operational store for your application. And I think Evan mentioned it a little bit, there's been a lot of the transformation that's happened if we rewind all the way back to the early '90s, when it was Oracle, and Microsoft SQL Server were kind of the big players there. And then as those architectures basically hit limits, when it came to applications moving to the web, you had this whole rise in a lot of different no SQL solutions, but those solutions sort of gave up on some of the promises of a relational database in order to achieve some of the ability to scale in the performance required at the web. But we required then a little bit more sophistication, intelligence, in order to be able to basically create logic in your application that could make up for the fact that those databases didn't actually deliver on the promises of traditional relational databases. And so, enter Fauna and it's really sort of a combination of those two things, which is providing the trust, the security and reliability of a traditional relational database, but offering it as serverless, as we talked about, at the scale that you need it for a web application. And so it's a very interesting combination of those capabilities that we think, as Evan was talking about, allows people who don't have large DevOps teams or very sophisticated developers who can code around some of the limitations of these other databases, to really be able to use a database for what they're looking for. What I write to it is what I'm going to read from it and that we maintain that commitment and make that super easy. >> Yeah, it's important to know that the part of the reason that operational database, the database for mission critical business data has remained a cost center is because the conventional wisdom was that something like Fauna was impossible to build. People said, you literally cannot in information science create a global API for data which is transactional and consistent and suitable for relying on, for mission critical, user login, banking payments, user generated content, social graphs, internal IT data, anything that's irreplaceable. People said, there can be no general service that can do this ubiquitously a global internet scale, you have to do it specifically. So it's sort of like, we had no power company. Instead, you could call up Amazon, they drive a truck with a generator to your house and hook you up. And you're like, right on, I didn't have to like, install the generator myself. But like, it's not a good experience. It's still a pain in the neck, it's still specific to the location you're at. It's not getting utility computing from the cloud the way, it's been a dream for many decades that we get all our services through brokers and API's and the web and it's finally real with serverless. I want to emphasize that the Fauna it technology is new and novel. And based on and inspired by our experience at Twitter and also academic research with some of our advisors like Dr. Daniel Abadi. It's one of the things that attracted us, Snowflake chairman to our company that we'd solve groundbreaking problems in information science in the cloud, just the way Snowflakes had. >> Yeah, well and Evan, yeah please go on Eric. >> Yeah, I'm just going to have one thing to that, which is, in addition, I think when you think about Fauna and you mentioned MongoDB, I think they're one of a great examples of database companies over the last decade, who's been able to build a standalone business. And if you look at it from a business model perspective, the thing that was really successful for them is they didn't go into try to necessarily like, rip and replace in big database migrations, they started evolving with a new class of developers and new applications that were being developed and then rode that obviously into sort of a land and expand model into enterprises over time. And so when you think about Fauna from your business value proposition is harnessing the technological innovation that Evan talked about. And then combining this with a product that bottoms up developer first business motion that kind of rides this technological shift into you creating a presence in the database market over time. >> Well, Evan, I just want to go back to that, it's impossible comment that you made, a lot of people they learn about a technology and they feel that that's the way the technology works. Serverless is obviously often misunderstood from the name itself, too. We had a conversation with Andy Jassy, the CEO of AWS a couple years ago, and he said, "If I could rebuild AWS from the ground up today, "it would be using all serverless," that doesn't mean only lambda, but they're rebuilding a lot of their pieces underneath it. So I've looked at the container world and we're only starting the last year or so, talking about people using databases with Kubernetes and containers, so what is it that allows you to be able to have as you said, there's the consistency. So we're talking about acid there, not worry about things like cold starts, which are thing lots of people are concerned about when it comes to serverless and help us understand a little bit that what you do and the underlying technologies that you leverage. >> Yeah, databases are always the last to evolve because they're the riskiest to change and the hardest to build. And basically, through the cloud era, we've done this lift and shift of existing on premises solutions, especially with databases into cloud machines, but it's still the metaphor of the physical computer, which is the overriding unit of granularity mental concept, everything like you mentioned, containers, like we had machines then we had Vms, now we have containers, it's still a computer. And the database goes in that one computer, in one spot and it sits there and you got to talk to it. Wherever that is in the world, no matter how far away it is from you. And people said, well, the relational database is great. You can use locks within a single machine to make sure that you're not conflicting your data when you update it, you going to have transactionality, you can have serialize ability. What do you do, if you want to make that experience highly available at global scale? We went through a series of evolutions as an industry. From initially that the on-prem RDBMS to things like Google's percolator scheme, which essentially scales that up to data center scale and puts different parts of the traditional database on different physical machines on low latency links, but otherwise doesn't change the consistency properties, then to things like Google Spanner, which rely on synchronized atomic clocks to guarantee consistency. Well, not everyone has synchronized atomic clocks just lying around. And they're also, their issues with noisy neighbors and tenancy and things because you have to make sure that you can always read the clock in a consistent amount of time, not just have the time accurate in the first place. And Fauna is based on and inspired and evolved from an algorithm called Calvin, which came out of a buddy's lab at Yale. And what Calvin does is invert the traditional database relationship and say, instead of doing a bunch of work on the disk and then figuring out which transactions won by seeing what time it is, we will create a global pre determined order of transactions which is arbitrary by journaling them and replicating them. And then we will use that to essentially derive the time from the transactions which have already been committed to disk. And then once we know the order, we can say which one's won and didn't win and which happened before, happen after and present the appearance of consistency to all possible observers. And when this paper came out, it came out about a decade ago now I think, it was very opaque. There's a lot of kind of hand waving exercises left to the reader. Some scary statements about how wasn't suitable for things that in particular SQL requires. We met, my co-founder and I met as Fauna chief architect, he worked on my team at Twitter, at one of the database groups. We were building Fauna we were doing our market discovery or prototyping and we knew we needed to be a global API. We knew we needed low latency, high performance at global scale. We looked at Spanner and Spanner couldn't do it. But we found that this paper proposed a way that could and we can see based on our experience at Twitter that you could overcome all these obstacles which had made the paper overall being neglected by industry and it took us quite a while to implement it at industrial quality and scale, to qualify it with analysts and others, prove to the world that it was real. And Eric mentioned Mongo, we did a lot of work with Cassandra as well at Twitter, we're early in the Cassandra community. Like I wrote, the first tutorial for Cassandra where data stacks was founded. These vendors were telling people that you could not have transactionality and scale at the same time, and it was literally impossible. Then we had this incrementalism like things with Spanner. And it wasn't till Fauna that anyone had proved to the world that that just wasn't true. There was more marketing around their failure to solve the information science problem, than something fundamental. >> Eric, I'm wondering if you're able to share just order of magnitude, how many customers you have out there from a partnership standpoint, we'd like to understand a little bit how you work or fit into the public cloud ecosystems out there. I noticed that Alphabets General Venture Fund was one of the contributors to the last raise. And obviously, there's some underlying Google technology there. So if you could just customers and ecosystem. >> Yeah, so as I mentioned, we've had a very aggressive product lead developer go to market. And so we have 10s of thousands of people now on the service, using Fauna at different levels. And now we're focused on, how do we continue to build that momentum, again, going back to the model of focus on a developer lead model, really what we're focused on there is taking everything that Evan just talked about, which is real and very differentiated in terms of the real core tech in the back end and then combining that with a developer experience that makes it extremely easy to use and really, we think that's the magic in terms of what Fauna is bringing, so we got 10s of thousands of users and we got more signing up every day, coming to the service, we have an aggressive free plan there and then they can migrate up to higher paying plans as they consume over time. And the ecosystem, we're aggressively playing in the broader serverless ecosystem. So what we're looking at is as Evan mentioned, sometimes the databases is the last thing to change, it's also not necessarily the first thing that a developer starts from when they think about building their application or their website. And so we're plugging into the larger serverless ecosystem where people are making their choices about potentially their compute platform or maybe a development platform like I know you've talked to the folks over at JAMstack, sorry at Netlify and Purcell, who are big in the JAMstack community and providing really great workflows for new web and application developers on these platforms. And then at the compute layer, obviously, our Amazon, Google, Microsoft all have a serverless compute solution. CloudFlare is doing some really interesting things out at the edge. And so there's a variety of people up and down that stack, if you will, when people are thinking about this new generation of applications that we're plugging into to make sure that the Fauna is that the default database of choice. >> Wonderful, last question, Evan if I could, I love what I got somebody with your background. Talk about just so many different technologies maturing, give us a little bit as to some of the challenges you see serverless ecosystem, what's being attacked, what do we still need to work on? >> I mean, serverless is in the same place that Lamp was in the in the early '90s. We have the old conservatives ecosystem with the JAMstack players that Eric mentioned. We have closed proprietary ecosystems like the AWS stack or the Google Firebase stack. As to your point, Google has also invested in us so they're placing their bets widely. But it's seeing the same kind of criticism. That Lamp, the Linux, Apache, MySQL, PHP, Perl, it's not mature, it's a toy, no one will ever use this for real business. We can't switch from like DV2 or mumps to MySQL, like no one is doing that. The movement and the momentum in serverless is real. And the challenge now is for all the vendors in collaboration with the community of developers to mature the tools as those the products and applications being built on the new more productive stack also mature, so we have to keep ahead of our audience and make sure we start delivering and this is partly why Eric is here. Those those mid market and ultimately enterprise requirements so that business is built on top of Fauna today, can grow like Twitter did from small to giant. >> Yeah, I'd add on to that, this is reminiscent for me, back in 2009 at Okta, we were one of the early ISVs that built on in relied 100% on AWS. At that time there was still, it was very commonplace for people racking and stacking their own boxes and using Colo and we used to have conversations about I wonder how long it's going to be before we exceed the cost of this AWS thing and we go and run our own data centers. And that would be laughable to even consider today, right, no one would ever even think about that. And I think serverless is in a similar situation where the consumption model is very attractive to get started, some people sitting there, is it going to be too expensive as I scale. And as Evan mentioned, when we think about if you fast forward to kind of what the innovation that we can anticipate both technologically and economically it's just going to be the default model that people are going to wonder why they used to spend all these time managing these machines, if they don't have to. >> Evan and Eric, thank you so much, is great to hear the progress that you've made and big supporters, the serverless ecosystem, so excited to watch the progress there. Thanks so much. >> Thanks Stu. >> Thanks for having us Stu. >> All right and I'm Stu Miniman. Stay tuned. Every week we are putting out the Cloud Native Insights. Appreciate. Thank you for watching. (bright upbeat music)

>>from around the globe. >>It's the Cube with coverage >>of Coop con and cloud, Native con Europe 2020 Virtual brought to you by Red Hat, The Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. Welcome back. I'm stew minimum. And this is the Cube's coverage of cube con cloud, native con Europe 2020 of course, happening virtual this year. We always love when we get to talk to the practitioners in this community. So much happening in the developer space and really excited to have on the program first time guest in a very timely topic, we welcome our bod. Hassani, Who is the back and lead for house? My flattening, which is a joint research project. It related to code 19 associated with the University of Toronto. About thanks so much for joining us. >>Thank you. >>All right, so maybe explain how is my flattening? You know, the term flattening the curve is something that I think everyone around the globe is familiar with. Now, um, you know, Canada, you've got some great initiatives going. So help us understand how you got involved in this in what? What is the project? Sure, So I'll >>take a stock to March, which now feels like years ago. Um, back in March, way could look across in Europe, and we saw that. You know, I feel we're being overwhelmed. This new Cobra thing was happening, and there seems to be nothing happening here despite the fact that we know what was going on in Europe. So this whole collaboration started. It's really the brainchild of Dr Ben. Fine. Who's the radiologist that actually and partners on the idea was, Why don't we put all the data that is related to co bid, uh, for the province of Ontario, where I'm from in one place, right. So for the data mining people, like a lot of people on the on the program here and for the data minded people of Ontario to be able to have the information they need to make targeted both of the general public on that policy makers to really empower them with the right tools. We know the data was siloed in health care, and we know, you know, when this whole thing started, everything was on a website, you would get a daily update, but it wasn't something that you could analyze. Something you couldn't use. Really? It was unusable. How everything kind of started it. What if we did something about that? What if we brought all the data in one place? What if we visualize it and put all the resources in place that was released? How is my fattening got a Which is this initiative that I got involved with back in March and what we've been doing is building a number of dashboards based on Kobe data that are close to real time as possible. Doing a number of analyses. Um, the answer, your specific questions and doing deep dives into specific question. We have a team of scientific experts where our leadership, um you know Dr Ben Fine. I mentioned earlier. There's Dr Laura Rosello, the epidemiologists out of Ah, Perceptron. Oh, and then we have a Dr Alley that he's Austin Oy. Who the data science lead over it. Quick. Also, we got this kind of three perfect or the organization of the right talent required, and we've been trying Yeah, and whatever way we can by making the data transparent, >>Yeah, there's been a lot of initiatives, obviously that have had to accelerate really fast during this time it bring us inside a little bit. How long did it take to spend the site up? How do you make sure you're getting good data in Who decides? You know which visualizations love to hear a little bit about? You know how that has matured over the months that you've had project out there >>for sure. So when we started what people were doing out on Twitter, really, where there's a lot of this activity was happening was people were grabbing expect sheets and typing out every day what was happening. And I mean, coming from I'm not by any means a technical developer. That's not what I specialize in, but having some development dot com, and it makes sense that things could be done so much better. So we started to build data pipelines. Starting in March. We had a couple of government sources that were public. It was basically scrapping the government website and recording that in a database. Um, and then we start to visualize that we're using, you know, whatever we could that we started with Pablo just because we had a few. We're trying to build a community, right? So a community people want help and do this. But we have some tableau experts on our team and our community and, you know, the way we went. So we had the database. We started to connect with tableau and visualize it. Do you know, besides into and also that and then the project has matured from that web stopper ever since, with more complex data, pipeline building and data from different sources and visualizing them in different ways and expanding our dash boarding and expanding our now >>well in the cube con show that we're here at is so much about community. Obviously, open source is a major driver of what's going on there. So it sounded like that was that was a big piece of what you're working on. Help us bring inside out of that community build. I'd love to hear if there's any projects and tools you mentioned tableau for visualization, but anything from open source also that you're using. >>So actually, I I've never been involved in open source project before That this was kind of my first attempt, if you will, on we started, uh, on get hub quite early on. Actually, one of the partners I got involved in re shots was was Red hat off course. They're known for doing open source and for selling at it, and we have some amazing help from them into how we can organize community. Um, and we started to move the community over from getting up to get lab. You know, we started to the way we collaborate in slack. Ah, lot of times. And there's a lot of silos that we started to break those down and move them into get lab. And all conversations were happening in public that would beam or more closer to an open source approach. And honestly, a lot of people that are involved are our students, grass students who want to help our people in the community that want to help people from all kind of different backgrounds. I think we're really bringing in open source is not not a known concept in a lot of these clinical scientific communities, right? It's a lot more developer oriented, and I think it's been it's been learning opportunity for everyone involved. Uh, you know, something that may seem kind of default or basic have been a big learning opportunity for everyone of, you know, issues shocking and labeling and using comments and I'll going back into our own old ways of like, emailing people are people. Um, they had been digital art to it, and we'll get a lot of the big one. Um, we went from having this kind of monolithic container rising it and using Kubernetes, of course, were developed with the help of Red Hat. We're able to move everything over to their open shift dedicated platform, and that was that allowed us to do is really do a lot of do things a lot better and do things in a more mature way. Um, that's that's quite a bit of information, but that's kind of high level. What it? >>Well, no, it's great. We One of the things we've been poking out for the last few years is you know, in the early days you talk about kubernetes. It was Oh, I need things at a scale on And, you know, while I'm sure that the amount of data and scale is important, speed was a major major piece of what you need to be involved in and you'll be able to rally and James So can you talk a little bit more. Just open shift. What did that bring to the environment? Any aspects related to the data that red hat help you with. >>So a few things there. The one thing that open shift I think really helped us with was really mean and how to help us with generally was establishing a proper see I CD pipeline. Right. So now we we use git lab itself. We have get lab runners that everyone, basically all developers involved have their own branches when they push code to get auto. We like to their branch. It just made everything a lot easier and a lot faster to be able to push things quickly without worrying about everything breaking That was definitely a big plus. Um, the other thing that we're doing with, uh that is using containers. Actually, we've been working on this open data hub, which is, you know, working on another great open source project which is again built on kubernetes and trying to break down some of the barriers when it comes to sharing data in the healthcare system. Um, we're using that and we, with the help of red, how we're able to deploy that to be able to collaborate between hospitals, share data securely. You do security analytics and try to break down some of these silos that I've gone up due to fears over security and find the so That's another great example open source helping us kind of pushing forward. >>Well, that that's I'm glad you brought that up The open data hub, that collaboration with other places when you have data being able to share that, you know, has to be important talk. This was a collaboration to start with, you know, what's the value of being able to work with other groups and to share your data beyond beyond just the community that's working on it. >>So if you think about what's happening right now in a lot of hospitals in Canada, and I mean it's the same in the US is everyone is in this re opening stage. We shut down the economy. We should down a lot of elective surgeries and a lot of procedures. I know hospitals are trying to reopen right so and trying to figure out how to go back to their old capacity, and in that they're all trying to solve the same problem in different ways. So everyone is in their silo trying to tackle the same problems in a way. So what we're trying to do is basically get everyone together and collaborate on this open, open source environments, right? And what this open data allows us to do in to some degree alleviate some of the fears over sharing data so that we're not all doing the same thing in parallel are not talking to each other. We're able to share code, share data, get each other's opinions and, you know, use your resources in the healthcare system or official the drill, you know, all trying to address the same goal here. >>So imagine if you've had a lot of learnings from this project that you've done. Have you given any thought to? You know, once you get past that kind of the immediate hurdle of covert 19 you know what? Will this technology be able to help you going forward? You know, what do you see? Kind of post dynamic, if you will. >>I think the last piece I touched on, there is a big thing that I'm really hoping we'll be able to push forward past the pandemic. I think what? What the pandemic has shown us is the need for more transparency and more collaboration and being able to be more agile in response to things faster. And that's know how they're operating. And I think we know that now we can see that. I'm hoping that can be used as an opportunity to be able to bring people together to collaborate on projects like, How's my funding outside of this, right? We're not Not only the next pandemic. Hopefully I never come. Um but but for other, bigger problem that we face every day, collaboration can only help things, not tender thing. I'm hoping that's one big side effect that comes out of this. And I think the data transparency thing is is another big one that I'm hoping can improve outside of the situation. >>Yeah, I I wonder if I can ask you just a personal question. We've heard certain organizations say that, you know, years of planning have been executed in months. When I think about all the technologies that you had thrown at you, all the new things you learned often that something that would have taken years. But you didn't month. So how do you work through that? You know, there's only 24 hours in any day, and we do need some sleep. So what was important from your standpoint? What partners into tools helped, you know, and And the team, you know, take advantage of all of these new technologies. >>Yeah, honestly, I think that the team is really, really important. We've had an amazing set of people that are quite diverse and then usually would, quite honestly, never be seen in the same room together just because of all the different backgrounds that are there. Um, so that was a big driver. I think everyone was motivated to get things done. What happens when we first launched the site? We, you know, put it together. Basic feedback mechanism. Where we where we could hear from the public on. We've got an outpouring of support, people saying that they found that information really useful. And I think that pushed everyone to work harder and ah, and kind of reinforces our belief that this is what we're doing is helpful on, is making a difference in someone's life. And I think everyone that helped everyone work harder in terms of some of the tools that we use. Yeah, I totally agree. I think there was a 1,000,000 things that we all learned. Um, and it definitely wasn't amazing. Growing opportunity, I think, for the whole group. Um, I I don't know if there's a There's any wisdom I can impart. They're more than I think we were just being pushed by the need and being driven by the support that we're getting. Okay, >>well, you know, when there's a necessity to get things done, it's great to see the team execute the last question I have for you. You've got all this data. You've got visualizations. You've been going through a lot of things any any interesting learnings that you had or something that you were. You able to visualize things in a certain way in the community, reacted anything that you've learned along the way. That may be surprised you. >>That's a really interesting question there. I think the biggest, the biggest learning opportunity or surprise for me was what? How much people are willing to help if you just write, um, a lot of people involved. I mean, this is a huge group of volunteers who are dedicating their time to this because they believe in it on because they think they're doing the right thing and they're doing it for a bigger cause. It sounds very cheesy. Um, but I think that was wonderful to me to see that we can bring together such diverse people to dedicate their time for freedom to do something for the public. >>Yeah, well, and along that note, I I see on the website there is a get involved. But so is there anything you know, skill set or people that you're looking for, uh, further to help the team >>100%. So I think when I every time we do a presentation of any thought really got for anyone who's watching to just go on our site and get involved, there's a 1,000,000 different things that you can get involved with. If you're a developer, we can always use help. If you're a data, this person, we can always use help If you're a designer, honestly, there were a community driven organization. Uhm and we can always use more people in that community. That's that's the unique thing about the organization. 100%. Please do to house my finding, Dr and you get involved in get Lab. >>Well, so far, but thank you so much for sharing. We definitely encourage the unity get involved. It's projects like this that are so critically important. Especially right now during the pandemic. Thanks so much for joining. And thank you for all the work the team did. >>Thank you for having me. >>Alright. And stay tuned for more coverage from Cube Con Cloud native on 2020 in Europe Virtual Edition. I'm Stew Minimum. And thank you for watching the Cube. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

(soft music) >> From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto, in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is theCUBE Conversation. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman coming to you from our Boston area studio here for a CUBE conversation. Really like when we can dig into help some of the nonprofits in our industry, going to be talking about, training, helping other people lift up their careers. Happy to welcome to the program, first time guests, Jerome Hardaway. He's the founder of vets who code coming down from Nashville, Jerome, I seem to remember a time where I was able to travel. I did some lovely hiking even saw bear last time I was down in Nashville. Thanks so much for joining us. Roger that. Thank you, a funny story. I saw a cow on the loose while driving on the highway yesterday. So not much has changed. (Jerome laughs) Thank you guys for having me. >> Yeah, it is a little bit of strange times here in the Covert area. I live kind of suburban Massachusetts area. One of my neighbors did report a small bear in the area. I'm definitely seeing more than just the usual, what kind of wild turkeys and the like that we get up in New England, but let's talk about Vets Who Code. So, you're the founder, the name doesn't leave much up for us to guess what you do, but tell us a little bit as to the inspiration and the goals of your organization. Roger that, Vets Who Code is the first veteran founded, operated and led, a remote 501 C three that focuses on training veterans regardless where they are and modern age of technologies. Our stack right now, I would say is focused more towards front-end DevOps with a lot of serverless technologies being built-in. And that's pretty much what exactly what we do well. >> Well awesome, I had been loving digging into the serverless ecosystem the last few years. Definitely an exciting area, help us understand a little bit, who comes and joins this? What skill set do they have to have coming in? And explain a little bit the programs that they can offer that they can be part of. >> Yeah, cool. So we run Vets Who Code like a mixture between a tech company or a tech nonprofit, I guess, using those practices while also using military practices as well. And the people that come in are veterans and military spouses. And we try to use what we call a pattern matching practice, showcasing like. Hey, these are the things, he's been in military. This is how it translates to the tech side. Like, our sit reps is what you guys would call stand up. Kanban is what we would call like systems checks and frag orders, Op orders, things like that, or, our SLPs. So we turn around, we just train them, retrain them. So that way they can understand the lingo, understand how things, how you code, move and communicate and make sure that these guys and girls, they know how the work as JavaScript engineers and a serverless community. As of right now, we've helped 252 veterans in 37 States get jobs, our social economic impacts, then I think it's at 17.6 million right now. So it all from the comfort of their homes, that's like the cool and free, and those are like the coolest things that we've been able to do. >> Wow, that's fascinating. Jerome, I heard something that you've talked about, leveraging the military organizational styles. I'm just curious, there's in the coding world a lot of times we talk about Conway's law, which is that the code will end up resembling the look of the organization. And you talk about DevOps, DevOps is all about various organizations collaborating and working together. It seems a little bit different from what I would think of traditional military command and control. So is that anything you've given any thought to? Is there some of the organizational pieces that you need to talk to people about? Moving into these environments compared to what they might've had in the military. >> Negative, I think the biggest misconception that we have is that people, when you're talking about how the military moves, they're thinking of the military of yesteryear of 20, 30, 40 years ago. They're not thinking of global war on terrorism veterans and how we move and things like that. We understand distributed chains. We understand cause we call, that's what we've done at CENTAF and CENTCOM in Iraq and Afghanistan. So we honored, like we are already doing a lot of this stuff, we just naming it different. So that's part of the thing that we have as an advantage as the, cause all the people who are educators, there are veterans who learn how to code and they've been working in industry and they know. And so when they're teaching, they know the entire process that a veteran's going to go through. So that's how now we focus on things. And so the organizational structure for us first term to second term veterans is pretty normal. If you're coming out within the last, heck 10 years. (Jerome laughs) >> Yeah, absolutely. That's wonderful. And I I've had the opportunity to work with plenty of people that had come from the military. Very successful in the tech industry, definitely tend to be hard workers and engaged in what they'r doing. Curious, you talked about being able to do this remotely and then it is free. What's the impact of the current global pandemic? Everything that's happening here in 2020 been on what you're doing in your resources. >> Of the impact, unfortunately, I mean, not unfortunately, fortunately it has been nothing but positive. It's been crazy, we've gotten more applications. We have people are seeing that during, I was the crazy person in the room, when in 2014, when I was saying nonprofits should move to remote first protocols. So that way they could have greater impact for less, with less financial resources. And back then I was the, like what are you talking about? This is the way we've always done. Well now everybody was scrambling to try to figure out how to help people without being in same room with them. We were like, Oh, okay, lt's do today. So we got an influx of people applying, influx of people, sending me, trying to get into our next cohort in August. It's just, the biggest thing that has happened for Vets Who Code is yet, it's been a really positive experience for us, which is really weird to say, but I think it has, my doomsday Murphy's law style of preparing, I assume that anything that can go wrong will go wrong. So I try to prepare for that. So being open source, being serverless, being having everything in a manner to where--in case I was out of the pot, out of the situation, other people operate having this distributed teams, or there are other leaders that can take over and do things. It's all stuff that, I guess I got from the military. So, we were know we were prepared because there was absolutely zero pivot for us. If anything, it has been more resources. We've been able to dive deeper in more subjects because people have had more time, but, we can do, we can dive deeper into AWS. We started a lunch and learn every two weeks. We actually have a lunch and learn next week with Dr. Lee Johnson. And she's going to be talking, we open that to it by all juniors and entry level devs, developers, regardless of whether you're a veteran or not, we just throw it on Twitter and let them get in. And the focus will be on tech ethics. We all know, right now we've been leading the charge on trying to make sure people are supercharging their skills during this time frame. So that's what, it's been very positive. I've been working with magazine, front-end masters. It's been awesome. >> Well, that's wonderful. Wish everyone had the mindset coming into 2020, because it does seem that anything that could go wrong has, (both laugh) I'm curious, once people have skilled up and they've gone through the program, what connections do you have with industry? How do you help with job placement in that sort of activity? >> That is the most asked question, because that is the thing that people expect because of code schools, because of our educational program protocols. We don't really need that issue because our veterans are skilled enough to where to hiring managers know the quality that we produce. I live in Nashville and I've only been able to place one veteran that I've trained locally in the community because of fame companies have snatched up every other veteran I've ever trained in the community, so things like that, it's not a problem because no, a usually 80% of our veterans have jobs before they even graduate. So you're literally picking up, picking people who, they know they have the potential to get a bit companies if they put the work in and it's just as they come, we actually have people. I think a company reached out to me yesterday and I was like, I don't even have people for you. They already have jobs. (jerome laughs) Or I'm in a situation now where all my senior devs are looking for fame companies. Cause that's one of the things we do is that we support our veterans from reentry to retirement. So we're not like other code schools where they only focus on that 30 to 60 to 90 days, so that first job, our veterans, they keep coming back to re-skill, get more skills, come up to the lunch and learns, come to our Slack side chats to become better programmers. And once they're, so we've helped several of our programmers go from entry-level dev to senior dev, from absolutely zero experience. And so, I think that's the most rewarding thing. When you see a person who they came in knowing nothing. And three years later, like after the cohort safe they got their job and then they come back after they got the jobs, they want to get more skills and they get another job and then they come back. And the next thing, my favorite, one of my favorites Schuster, he starts at a local web shop, a web dev shop in Savannah, Georgia. And then next thing, oh, he's on Amazon, he's at Amazon three years later and you're like, Oh wow, we did that, that's awesome. So that's the path that we do is awesome. >> I'm curious, are there certain skill sets that you see in more need than other? And I'm also curious, do you recommend, or do you help people along with certain certifications? Thinking, the cloud certifications definitely have been on the rise, the last couple years. >> I feel like the cloud, the cloud certifications have been on the rise because it's expensive to like test for that stuff. If a person messes up, unless you have a very dedicated environment to where they can't mess up, they can cost you a lot of money, right? So you want that certain, right? But for us, it's been, we just focused on what we like to call front-end DevOps. We focus on Jamstack, which is JavaScript, APIs and markup, also along with a lot of serverless. So we're using AWS, we're using, also they're, they're learning Lambda functions, all this stuff. We're using a query language called GraphQL. We're using Apollo with that query language. We're using some node, React, GET, Speed. And a lot of third party API has to do like a lot of heavy lifting cause we believe that the deeper dive that a person has in a language and being able to manipulate and utilize APIs that they can, the better they will be, Right? So, same way that colleges do it, but a more modern take like colleges, they give you the most painful language to learn, which is usually like C right? Where you had to make everything a very low-level language. And then you're going through this process of building. And because of that, other languages are easier because you felt the pain points. We do the same thing, but with JavaScript, because it's the most accessible, painful language on earth, that's what I called it with Wire magazine last year anyway. (jerome laughs) >> So Jerome, you've laid out how you you're well organized. You're lean and financially, making sure that things are done responsibly. We want to give you the opportunity though. What's the call to action? Vets Who Code, you're looking for more people to participate. Is it sponsorships? Work in the community, look to engage. >> Roger that, we are looking for two things. One, we're always looking for people to help support us. We're open source, we're on GitHub sponsors. Like the people who we we're up, we're open source. But the people that do most of our tickets are the students themselves. So that's one of the best things about us. there is no better move, feeling that having something in production that works, right? It actually does something right? Like, Oh, this actually helps people, right? So we help have our veterans like actually pull tickets and do things like that. But, we also, we build, we're building out teams that they're on all the time as well. We have our new tutorials team or veterans. They literally built front facing tutorials for people on the outside. So that way they can learn little skills as we also have podcasts team and they're always podcasting, always interviewing people that in community, from our mentors to our students, to our alumni. And so just, let's throw our podcasts on Spotify. Let's do some codes, the best Code podcast and sponsor song get up. >> Wonderful, Jerome. We want to give you the final word. you're very passionate. You've got a lot interested, loved hearing about some of the skill sets that you're helping others with. What's exciting you these days? What kind of things are you digging into, beyond Vets Who Code? >> Oh man, everything serverless dude. As a front-end, as a person who was full stack and move to front-end. This has never been a more exciting time to learn how to code because there's so many serverless technologies and is leveling the playing field for front-end engineers, just knowing a little bit of like server-side code and having DevOp skills and being able to work in a CLI, you can do like Jamstack and the people that are using it. You have Nike, you have governments. It's just, it's such an exciting time to be a front-end. So I'm just like, and just seeing also how people are like really turning towards wanting their data more open source. So that's another thing that's really exciting for me. I've never been a person that was very highbrow when it came to talking about code. I felt like that was kind of boring, but seeing how, when it comes to like how code is actually helping normal, average everyday people and how the culture as a whole is starting to get more hip to how, API is like our running the world and how tech is being leveraged for. And it gets them, I'm on fire with these conversations, so I try to contain it cause I don't want to scare anyone on TV, but we could talk like, we could talk hours of that stuff. Love it. >> Well, Jerome, thank you so much for sharing with our community, everything you're doing and wonderful activity Vets Who Code, definitely call out to the community, make sure check it out, support it. If you can and tie so much in Jerome, I've got a regular series I do called Cloud Native Insights that are poking at some of those areas that you were talking about serverless and some of the emerging areas. So Jerome, thanks so much for joining, pleasure having you on the program. >> Roger that, thank you for having me. >> All right. Be sure to check out thecube.net for all of the videos that we have as well as Siliconangle.com for the news an6d the writeups, what we do. I'm Stu Miniman and thank you for watching theCUBE. (soft music)

>> from our studios in the heart of Silicon Valley, Palo Alto, California It is a cute conversation. >> Welcome to this Cube conversation here in Palo Alto, California. At the Cube Studios. I'm John for a host of the Cube. We're here for a company profile coming called De Monte. Here. Tom Barton, CEO. As V M World approaches a lot of stuff is going to be talked about kubernetes applications. Micro Service's will be the top conversation, Certainly in the underlying infrastructure to power that Tom Barton is the CEO of De Monte, which is in that business. Tom, we've known each other for a few years. You've done a lot of great successful ventures. Thehe Monty's new one. Your got on your plate here right now? >> Yes, sir. And I'm happy to be here, so I've been with the Amante GIs for about a year or so. Um, I found out about the company through a head turner. Andi, I have to admit I had not heard of the company before. Um, but I was a huge believer in containers and kubernetes. So has already sold on that. And so I had a friend of mine. His name is Brian Walden. He had done some massive kubernetes cloud based deployments for us at Planet Labs, a company that I was out for a little over three years. So I had him do technical due diligence. Brian was also the number three guy, a core OS, um, and so deeply steeped in all of the core technologies around kubernetes, including things like that CD and other elements of the technology. So he looked at it, came back and gave me two thumbs up. Um, he liked it so much that I then hired him. So he is now our VP of product management. And the the cool thing about the Amanti is essentially were a purpose built solution for running container based workloads in kubernetes on premises and then hooking that in with the cloud. So we believe that's very much gonna be a hybrid cloud world where for the major corporations that we serve Fortune 500 companies like banks like energy and utilities and so forth Ah, lot of their workload will maintain and be maintained on premises. They still want to be cloud compatible. So you need a purpose built platform to sort of manage both environments >> Yeah, we certainly you guys have compelling on radar, but I was really curious to see when you came in and took over at the helm of the CEO. Because your entrepreneurial career really has been unique. You're unique. Executive. Both lost their lands. And as an operator you have an open source and software background. And also you have to come very successful companies and exits there as well as in the hardware side with trackable you took. That company went public. So you got me. It's a unique and open source software, open source and large hardware. Large data center departments at scale, which is essentially the hybrid cloud market right now. So you kind of got the unique. You have seen the view from all the different sides, and I think now more than ever, with Public Cloud certainly being validated. Everyone knows Amazon of your greenfield. You started the cloud, but the reality is hybrid. Cloud is the operating model of the genesis. Next generation of companies drive for the next 20 to 30 years, and this is the biggest conversation. The most important story in tech. You're in the middle of it with a hot start up with a name that probably no one's ever heard of, >> right? We hope to change that. >> Wassily. Why did you join this company? What got your attention? What was the key thing once you dug in there? What was the secret sauce was what Got your attention? Yes. So to >> me again, the market environment. I'm a huge believer that if you look at the history of the last 15 years, we went from an environment that was 0% virtualized too. 95% virtualized with, you know, Vienna based technologies from VM Wear and others. I think that fundamentally, containers in kubernetes are equally as important. They're going to be equally as transformative going forward and how people manage their workloads both on premises and in the clouds. Right? And the fact that all three public cloud providers have anointed kubernetes as the way of the future and the doctor image format and run time as the wave of the future means, you know, good things were gonna happen there. What I thought was unique about the company was for the first time, you know, surprisingly, none of the exit is sick. Senders, um, in companies like Nutanix that have hyper converse solutions. They really didn't have anything that was purpose built for native container support. And so the founders all came from Cisco UCS. They had a lot of familiarity with the underpinnings of hyper converged architectures in the X 86 server landscape and networking, subsistence and storage subsystems. But they wanted to build it using the latest technologies, things like envy and me based Flash. Um, and they wanted to do it with a software stack that was native containers in Kubernetes. And today we support two flavors of that one that's fully open source around upstream kubernetes in another that supports our partner Red hat with open shift. >> I think you're really onto something pretty big here because one of things that day Volonte and Mine's too many men and our team had been looking at is we're calling a cloud to point over the lack of a better word kind of riff on the Web to point out concept. But cloud one daughter was Amazon. Okay, Dev ops agile, Great. Check the box. They move on with life. It's always a great resource, is never gonna stop. But cloud 2.0, is about networking. It's about securities but data. And if you look at all the innovation startups, we'll have one characteristic. They're all playing in this hyper converged hardware meat software stack with data and agility, kind of to make the original Dev ops monocle better. The one daughter which was storage and compute, which were virtualization planes. So So you're seeing that pattern and it's wide ranging at security is data everything else So So that's kind of what we call the Cloud two point game. So if you look at V m World, you look at what's going on the conversations around micro service red. It's an application centric conversation in an infrastructure show. So do you see that same vision? And if so, how do you guys see you enabling the customer at this saying, Hey, you know what? I have all this legacy. I got full scale data centers. I need to go full scale cloud and I need zero and disruption to my developer. Yeah, so >> this is the beauty of containers and kubernetes, which is they know it'll run on the premises they know will run in the cloud, right? Um and it's it is all about micro service is so whether they're trying to adopt them on our database, something like manga TB or Maria de B or Crunchy Post Grey's, whether it's on the operational side to enable sort of more frequent and incremental change, or whether it's on a developer side to take advantage of new ways of developing and delivering APS with C I. C. D. Tools and so forth. It's pretty much what people want to do because it's future proofing your software development effort, right? So there's sort of two streams of demand. One is re factoring legacy applications that are insufficiently kind of granule, arised on, behave and fail in a monolithic way. Um, as well as trying to adopt modern, modern, cloud based native, you know, solutions for things like databases, right? And so that the good news is that customers don't have to re factor everything. There are logical break points in their applications stack where they can say, Okay, maybe I don't have the time and energy and resource is too totally re factor a legacy consumer banking application. But at least I can re factor the data based here and serve up you know container in Kubernetes based service is, as Micro Service's database is, a service to be consumed by. >> They don't need to show the old to bring in the new right. It's used containers in our orchestration, Layla Kubernetes, and still be positioned for whether it's service measures or other things. Floor That piece of the shirt and everything else could run, as is >> right, and there are multiple deployments scenarios. Four containers. You can run containers, bare metal. Most of our customers choose to do that. You can also run containers on top of virtual machines, and you can actually run virtual machines on top of containers. So one of our major media customers actually run Splunk on top of K B M on top of containers. So there's a lot of different deployment scenarios. And really, a lot of the genius of our architecture was to make it easy for people that are coming from traditional virtualized environments to remap system. Resource is from the bm toe to a container at a native level or through Vienna. >> You mentioned the history lesson there around virtualization. How 15 years ago there was no virtualization now, but everything's virtualized we agree with you that containers and compares what is gonna change that game for the next 15 years? But what's it about VM? Where would made them successful was they could add virtualization without requiring code modification, right? And they did it kind of under the covers. And that's a concern Customs have. I have developers out there. They're building stacks. The building code. I got preexisting legacy. They don't really want to change their code, right? Do you guys fit into that narrative? >> We d'oh, right, So every customer makes their own choice about something like that. At the end of the day, I mentioned Splunk. So at the time that we supported this media customer on Splunk, Splunk had not yet provided a container based version for their application. Now they do have that, but at the time they supported K B M, but not native containers and so unmodified Splunk unmodified application. We took them from a batch job that ran for 23 hours down the one hour based on accelerating and on our perfect converged appliance and running unmodified code on unmodified K B m on our gear. Right, So some customers will choose to do that. But there are also other customers, particularly at scale for transaction the intensive applications like databases and messaging and analytics, where they say, You know, we could we could preserve our legacy virtualized infrastructure. But let's try it as a pair a metal container approach. And they they discovered that there's actually some savings from both a business standpoint and a technology tax standpoint or an overhead standpoint. And so, as I mentioned most of our customers, actually really. Deficiencies >> in the match is a great example sticking to the product technology differentiate. What's the big secret sauce describe the product? Why are you winning in accounts? What's the lift in your business right now? You guys were getting some traction from what I'm hearing. Yeah, >> sure. So look at the at the highest level of value Proposition is simplicity. There is no other purpose built, you know, complete hardware software stack that delivers coup bernetti coproduction kubernetes environment up and running in 15 minutes. Right. The X 86 server guys don't really have it. Nutanix doesn't really have it. The software companies that are active in this space don't really have it. So everything that you need that? The hardware platform, the storage infrastructure, the actual distribution of the operating system sent the West, for example. We distribute we actually distributed kubernetes distribution upstream and unmodified. And then, very importantly, in the combinations landscape, you have to have a storage subsystem in a networking subsystem using something called C s I container storage interface in C N I. Container networking interface. So we've got that full stack solution. No one else has that. The second thing is the performance. So we do a certain amount of hardware offload. Um, and I would say, Amazons purchase of Annapurna so Amazon about a company called Annapurna its basis of their nitro technology and its little known. But the reality is more than 50% of all new instances at E. C to our hardware assisted with the technology that they thought were offloaded. Yeah, exactly. So we actually offload storage and network processing via to P C I. D cards that can go into any industry server. Right? So today we ship on until whites, >> your hyper converge containers >> were African verge containers. Yeah, exactly. >> So you're selling a box. We sell a box with software that's the >> with software. But increasingly, our customers are asking us to unbundle it. So not dissimilar from the sort of journey that Nutanix went through. If a customer wants to buy and l will support Del customer wants to buy a Lenovo will support Lenovo and we'll just sell >> it. Or have you unbundled? Yetta, you're on bundling. >> We are actively taking orders for on bundling at the present time in this quarter, we have validated Del and Lenovo as alternate platforms, toothy intel >> and subscription revenue. On that, we >> do not yet. But that's the golden mask >> Titanic struggle with. So, yeah, and then they had to take their medicine. >> They did. But, you know, they had to do that as a public company. We're still a private company, so we can do that outside the limelight of the public >> markets. So, um, I'm expecting that you guys gonna get pretty much, um I won't say picked off, but certainly I think your doors are gonna be knocked on by the big guys. Certainly. Delic Deli and see, for instance, I think it's dirty. And you said yes. You're doing business with del name. See, >> um, we are doing as a channel partner and as an OM partner with them at the present time there, I wouldn't call them a customer. >> How do you look at V M were actually there in the V M, where business impact Gelsinger's on the record. It'll be on the Cube, he said. You know Cu Bernays the dial tone of the Internet, they're investing their doubling down on it. They bought Hep D O for half a billion dollars. They're big and cloud native. We expect to see a V M World tons of cloud Native conversation. Yes, good, bad for you. What's the take? The way >> legitimizes what we're doing right? And so obviously, VM, where is a large and successful company? That kind of, you know, legacy and presence in the data center isn't gonna go anywhere overnight. There's a huge set of tooling an infrastructure that bm where has developed in offers to their customers. But that said, I think they've recognized in their acquisition of Hep Theo is is indicative of the fact that they know that the world's moving this way. I think that at the end of the day, it's gonna be up to the customer right. The customer is going to say, Do I want to run containers inside? Of'em? Do I want to run on bare metal? Um, but importantly, I think because of, you know, the impact of the cloud providers in particular. If you think of the lingua franca of cloud Native, it's gonna be around Dr Image format. It's gonna be around kubernetes. It's not necessarily gonna be around V M, d K and BMX and E s X right. So these are all very good technologies, but I think increasingly, you know, the open standard and open source community >> people kubernetes on switches directly is no. No need, Right. Have anything else there? So I gotta ask you on the customer equation. You mentioned you, you get so you're taking orders. How you guys doing business today? Where you guys winning, given example of of why people while you're winning And then for anyone watching, how would they know if they should be a customer of yours? What's is there like? Is there any smoke signs and signals? Inside the enterprise? They mentioned batch to one hour. That's just music. Just a lot of financial service is used, for instance, you know they have timetables, and whether they're pulling back ups back are doing all the kinds of things. Timing's critical. What's the profile customer? Why would someone call you? What's the situation? The >> profile is heavy duty production requirements to run in both the developer context and an operating contact container in kubernetes based workloads on premises. They're compatible with the cloud right so increasingly are controlled. Plane makes it easy to manage workloads not just on premises but also back and forth to the public cloud. So I would argue that essentially all Fortune 500 companies Global 1000 companies are all wrestling with what's the right way to implement industry standard X 86 based hardware on site that supports containers and kubernetes in his cloud compatible Right? So that that is the number one question then, >> so I can buy a box and or software put it on my data center. Yes, and then have that operate with Amazon? Absolutely. Or Google, >> which is the beauty of the kubernetes standards, right? As long as you are kubernetes certified, which we are, you can develop and run any workload on our gear on the cloud on anyone else that's carbonated certified, etcetera. So you know that there isn't >> given example the workload that would be indicative. >> So Well, I'll cite one customer, Right. So, um, the reason that I feel confident actually saying the name is that they actually sort of went public with us at the recent Gardner conference a week or so ago when the customer is Duke Energy. So very typical trajectory of journey for a customer like this, which is? A couple years ago, they decided that they wanted re factor some legacy applications to make them more resilient to things like hurricanes and weather events and spikes in demand that are associated with that. And so they said, What's the right thing to do? And immediately they pick containers and kubernetes. And then he went out and they looked at five different vendors, and we were the only vendor that got their POC up and running in the required time frame and hit all five use case scenarios that they wanted to do right. So they ended up a re factoring core applications for how they manage power outages using containers and kubernetes, >> a real production were real. Production were developing standout, absolutely in a sandbox, pushing into production, working Absolutely. So you sounds like you guys were positioned to handle any workload. >> We can handle any workload, but I would say that where we shine is things that transaction the intensive because we have the hardware assist in the I o off load for the storage and the networking. You know, the most demanding applications, things like databases, things like analytics, things like messaging, Kafka and so forth are where we're really gonna >> large flow data, absolutely transactional data. >> We have customers that are doing simpler things like C I. C D. Which at the end of the day involves compiling things right and in managing code bases. But so we certainly have customers in less performance intensive applications, but where nobody can really touch us in morning. What I mean is literally sort of 10 to 30 times faster than something that Nutanix could do, for example, is just So >> you're saying you're 30 times faster Nutanix >> absolutely in trans actually intensive applications >> just when you sell a prescription not to dig into this small little bit. But does the customer get the hardware assist on that as well >> it is. To date, we've always bundled everything together. So the customers have automatically got in the heart >> of the finest on the hard on box. Yes. If I buy the software, I got a loaded on a machine. That's right. But that machine Give me the hardware. >> You will not unless you have R two p C I. D. Cards. Right? And so this is how you know we're just in the very early stages of negotiating with companies like Dell to make it easy for them to integrate her to P. C. I. D cards into their server platform. >> So the preferred flagship is the is the device. It's a think if they want the hardware sit, that they still need to software meeting at that intensive. It's right. If they don't need to have 30 times faster than Nutanix, they can just get the software >> right, right. And that will involve RCS. I plug in RCN I plug in our OS distribution are kubernetes distribution, and the control plane that manages kubernetes clusters >> has been great to get the feature on new company, um, give a quick plug for the company. What's your objectives? Were you trying to do. I'll see. Probably hiring. Get some financing, Any news, Any kind of Yeah, we share >> will be. And we will be announcing some news about financing. I'm not prepared to announce that today, but we're in very good shape with respected being funded for our growth. Um, and consequently, so we're now in growth mode. So today we're 55 people. I want to double back over the course of the next 4/4 and increasingly just sort of build out our sales force. Right? We didn't have a big enough sales force in North America. We've gotta establish a beachhead in India. We do have one large commercial banking customer in Europe right now. Um, we also have a large automotive manufacturer in a pack. But, um, you know, the total sales and marketing reach has been too low. And so a huge focus of what I'm doing now is building out our go to market model and, um, sort of 10 Xing the >> standing up, a lot of field going, going to market. How about on the biz, Dev side? I might imagine that you mentioned delicate. Imagine that there's a a large appetite for the hardware offload >> absolution? Absolutely. So something is. Deb boils down to striking partnerships with the cloud providers really on two fronts, both with respect the hardware offload and assist, but also supporting their on premises strategy. So Google, for example, is announced. Antos. This is their approach to supporting, you know, on premises, kubernetes workloads and how they interact with cool cloud. Right. As you can imagine, Microsoft and Amazon also have on premises aspirations and strategies, and we want to support those as well. This goes well beyond something like Amazon Outpost, which is really a narrow use case in point solution for certain markets. So cloud provider partnerships are very important. Exit E six server vendor partnership. They're very important. And then major, I s V. So we've announced some things with red hat. We were at the Red Hat Open summit in Boston a few months ago and announced our open ship project and product. Um, that is now G a. Also working with eyes, he's like Maria de be Mondo di B Splunk and others to >> the solid texting product team. You guys are solid. You feel good on the product. I feel very good about the product. What aboutthe skeptics are out there? Just to put the hard question to use? Man, it's crowded field. How do you gonna compete? What do you chances? How do you like your chances known? That's a very crowded field. You're going to rely on your fastballs, they say. And on the speed, what's the what's What's your thinking? Well, it's unique. >> And so part of the way or approve point that I would cite There is the channel, right? So when you go to the channel and channel is afraid that you're gonna piss off Del or E M. C or Net app or Nutanix or somebody you know, then they're not gonna promote you. But our channel partners air promoting us and talking about companies like Life Boat at the distribution level. Talking about companies like CD W S H. I, um, you know, W W t these these major North American distributors and resellers have basically said, Look, we have to put you in our line car because you're unique. There is no other purpose built >> and why that, like they get more service is around that they wrap service's around it. >> They want to kill the murder where they want to. Wrap service's around it, absolutely, and they want to do migrations from legacy environments towards Micro Service's etcetera. >> Great to have you on share the company update. Just don't get personal. If you don't mind personal perspective. You've been on the hardware side. You've seen the large scale data centers from racquetball and that experience you'll spit on the software side. Open source. What's your take on the industry right now? Because you're seeing, um, I talked a lot of sea cells around the security space and, you know, they all say, Oh, multi clouds a bunch of B s because I'm not going to split my development team between four clouds. I need to have my people building software stacks for my AP eyes, and then I go to the vendors. They support my AP eyes where you can't be a supplier. Now that's on the sea suicide. But the big mega trend is there's software stacks being built inside the premise of the enterprise. Yes, that not mean they had developers before building. You know, Kobol, lapse in the old days, mainframes to client server wraps. But now you're seeing a Renaissance of developers building a stack for the domain specific applications that they need. I think that requires that they have to run on premise hyper scale like environment. What's your take on it >> might take is it's absolutely right. There is more software based innovation going on, so customers are deciding to write their own software in areas where they could differentiate right. They're not gonna do it in areas that they could get commodities solutions from a sass standpoint or from other kinds of on Prem standpoint. But increasingly they are doing software development, but they're all 99% of the time now. They're choosing doctor and containers and kubernetes as the way in which they're going to do that, because it will run either on Prem or in the Cloud. I do think that multi cloud management or a multi multi cloud is not a reality. Are our primary modality that we see our customers chooses tons of on premises? Resource is, that's gonna continue for the foreseeable future one preferred cloud provider, because it's simply too difficult to to do more than one. But at the same time they want an environment that will not allow themselves to be locked into that cloud bender. Right? So they want a potentially experiment with the second public cloud provider, or just make sure that they adhere to standards like kubernetes that are universally shared so that they can't be held hostage. But in practice, people don't. >> Or if they do have a militant side, it might be applications. Like if you're running office 3 65 right, That's Microsoft. It >> could be Yes, exactly. On one >> particular domain specific cloud, but not core cloud. Have a backup use kubernetes as the bridge. Right that you see that. Do you see that? I mean, I would agree with by the way we agreed to you on that. But the question we always ask is, we think you Bernays is gonna be that interoperability layer the way T c p I. P was with an I p Networks where you had this interoperability model. We think that there will be a future state of some point us where I could connect to Google and use that Microsoft and use Amazon. That's right together, but not >> this right. And so nobody's really doing that today, But I believe and we believe that there is, ah, a future world where a vendor neutral vendor, neutral with respect to public cloud providers, can can offer a hybrid cloud control plane that manages and brokers workloads for both production, as well as data protection and disaster recovery across any arbitrary cloud vendor that you want to use. Um, and so it's got to be an independent third party. So you know you're never going to trust Amazon to broker a workload to Google. You're never going to trust Google to broker a workload of Microsoft. So it's not gonna be one of the big three. And if you look at who could it be? It could be VM where pivotal. Now it's getting interesting. Appertaining. Cisco's got an interesting opportunity. Red hats got an interesting opportunity, but there is actually, you know, it's less than the number of companies could be counted on one hand that have the technical capability to develop hybrid cloud abstraction that that spans both on premises and all three. And >> it's super early. Had to peg the inning on this one first inning, obviously first inning really early. >> Yeah, we like our odds, though, because the disruption, the fundamental disruption here is containers and kubernetes and the interest that they're generating and the desire on the part of customers to go to micro service is so a ton of application re factoring in a ton of cloud native application development is going on. And so, you know, with that kind of disruption, you could say >> you're targeting opening application re factoring that needs to run on a cloud operating >> model on premise in public. That's correct. In a sense, dont really brings the cloud to theon premises environment, right? So, for example, we're the only company that has the concept of on premises availability zones. We have synchronous replication where you can have multiple clusters that air synchronously replicated. So if one fails the other one, you have no service disruption or loss of data, even for a state full application, right? So it's cloud like service is that we're bringing on Prem and then providing the links, you know, for both d. R and D P and production workloads to the public Cloud >> block locked Unpack with you guys. You might want to keep track of humaneness. Stateville date. It's a whole nother topic, as stateless data is easy to manage with AP Eyes and Service's wouldn't GET state. That's when it gets interesting. Com Part in the CEO. The new chief executive officer. Demonte Day How long you guys been around before you took over? >> About five years. Four years before me about been on board about a year. >> I'm looking forward to tracking your progress. We'll see ya next week and seven of'em Real Tom Barton, Sea of de Amante Here inside the Cube Hot startup. I'm John Ferrier. >> Thanks for watching.

>> live from London, England. It's the key covering a ws summat London twenty nineteen brought to you by Amazon Web services. >> Welcome back to London. Everybody, this is David. Continue watching the Cube. The leader in live tech coverage. We're here at the London A ws sum of twelve thousand people here for one day summit, which is typically the size of a large tech event that we cover in Las Vegas. John Lovelock is here is a vice president analyst that gardeners essentially gardeners Chief Forecaster John, Thanks for coming with huge pleasure to have you. Thanks for >> having me. It's a great show today. Great event. Happy to be here. >> You're in from Toronto. And, uh, yeah, I'm very impressed with the crowd. He obviously a developer crowd. You and I aren't ties. They see us coming. They think we're trying to sell him something. Waseem have >> ah, monopoly on all the ties and the rule. We have a very diverse group here, but they're all very enthusiastic. Could be here. It's been a great conference. >> So everywhere we go, we hear numbers. Obviously people want toe talk about the size of the market, its growth. That's your job to figure that out. I mean, I've heard numbers that it's a multi trillion dollar market now, uh, growing faster than GDP. I'd love to get your your thoughts on that. Where do we start? Top level macro. What's the pick? >> Top level macro cloud in all of its forms is the fastest growing tech the gardener is tracking. There is definitely spending in there. We're in the twenty twenty five percent growth globally. Nothing else comes close. Your overall growth rate for Total I'd spend this year is one point one percent cloud a twenty five percent. It is moving the market. The only way is doing that, of course, it's by taking money away from legacy lines of business. You know, it's about the switch and spending preference from legacy it and moving that into clouded in all of its forms. >> So it's a share shift you see going on. So you've got the total market growing below global GDP. Is that is that a fair statement? >> It's just below global TV >> usually tracks pretty closely. You would think right? I mean, it's logical that it would >> actually this almost no correlation between GDP and spend really It is one of the biggest things that we have to fight again. >> So that's a myth. >> Absolute myth here to tell you it is dead. There is a flight co relation, but there's no causation. Yl move between GDP and spending, just not there. >> So that makes your job even harder. It does. We have to >> watch what the vendors. They're selling off what they hope to spend. But most importantly, it's about what the demand side is doing. What are people doing? Why air they buying what they're buying? How much are they spending on the stuff that they have, what's get retired and what gets replaced with something new? And that's the whole big shift that we're seeing is a lot of things that are being retired out of the CEOs bag of tricks and a lot of new things coming in. So the spending shift that we're seeing it's all down to where is the CEO in their journey? Howie? How quickly are they able to move from legacy? I t to the new it How quickly is their business moving into being a digital business? >> So okay, so it's one plus percent growth on what we're talking two trillion, three trillion. I mean, what's the four trillion >> four trillion dollars by twenty twenty? >> Okay, And you said Cloud computing growing its twentieth twenty five percent. Eight of us, a thirty billion dollars run right business now growing at forty two percent. Inconstant currency. We're going in at nearly or maybe even slightly more than twice the market. That's astounding, that basically adding nine to ten million dollars a year. >> And they are right in the sweet spot for cloud growth. Do >> you think they hit the law of large numbers of people have been predicting that for years. Could get a company that size in your experience. Continue to grow at that pace? >> Absolutely there is. There is nothing stopping a ws from taking advantage of this market. We're nowhere near saturated for cloud changes. Most of software spend is still on legacy and maintenance of of software. On Prem. There's still a great deal of money being spent on servers and infrastructure and networking equipment, and all of that gets bled out into the cloud. Eventually, where they have opportunity to shift is almost limitless. You know the amount of money that is being spent by enterprises on cloud is different around the world. In the US, where cloud basically started where the infection started and it's spreading around the world. Back in twenty sixteen, there were about sixty percent of overall enterprise spend was on cloud. The rest of the world is tracking towards that. We have company countries that air close the U. K Canada one two years behind France Germany three four, most of Europe in the three to five years behind. We have some countries that are lagging a little bit further and several dinner just resisting that are not on track to get to cloud. We don't see them getting to cloud even in the ten year times, fam. But the fact that cloud spend in the U. S. Still makes up over fifty percent of global spending on cloud, but only twenty five percent of global spending on it, a lot of money still left to move over. >> That's interesting that that was the facts that's that suggest that there is a delta and cloud adoption between between United States and rest of world that the vendor narrative would not have you believe that? Am I getting that right? Is it? Is it not only slower adoption? What are they they as sophisticated in their adoption, or is there a delta there as well? >> There is a bit of it. There is a delta also in the sophistication. We know that there's a skill gap when it comes to cloud. Everywhere in the world faces the skill gap of the number of people they need with the new skills and cloud and the people they have with the skills that they have. Many companies are missing the fact that some of their Cobol programmers are the ones that should be developing their new cloud applications because it's about changing the business. And nobody knows their business better than the guys that have been writing the legacy apse that have been running the business for the last twenty years. So the training opportunity is actually with their Kobol programs with their long term programmers. We're not seeing that hitting into the market as much as we'd like. >> So your job very difficult job spent. The consolidation makes your job harder in a way, because part of a squint through companies want to tell you what they want to tell you, but you got to figure out what the truth is. When you think about Cloud, it appears relatively straightforward. It's a pure play. They now report their numbers. That must have helped you a lot. But a lot of vendors will throw everything the kitchen sink, you know, numbers for cloud. So you have to parse through that. You have to come up with common definitions across. I mean, good example. Certainly. IBM Oracle broke it out earlier, but now they sort of consolidate everything. One wonders, OK, Where they trying to hide? Not not to pick on people, but their large, established legacy companies. But they want to show their investors. Oh, we're growing at this. The Sirait. So how do you parse through that and squint through that and then come out the other end with the >> real numbers? Well, we have a lot of advantages of Gardner. We spend millions of dollars every year on surveying out globally. We get, we get responses back from CEOs from around the world. We do the largest CEO survey every single year, so we're getting feedback on where the money is being spent. We also have interviews that we do with our clients every single day. We do over two hundred fifty thousand enquiries with clients every year. So we're getting a great deal of feedback from where the money is being spent. We have to reconcile both sides of it. What the vendors air expecting to be what they're telling us that they're making and reconcile ing that with what we're being told is being spent. So we have multiple sides to get to this angle and again. When you start with a vendor, you start with their global revenue. It has to parse out from They're >> gonna match the income statement somehow. But so you've got the empirical data from your surveys. You've got the vendor data. You bottom up. You could do that. And you've got the anecdotal data from your inquiry. You know, your your corporate memory on kind of putting your job is to put all that together. >> Yeah, and we're tracking what we call our peer inside data. We're asking our clients, you know, when they're making a choice which fenders air, they choosing Which friends are they considering? Why did they make the choices? They are. We have our talent neuron database where we're scraping job postings from around the world. So we have somewhere over four billion job postings covering the last five years. So when a company is telling us that they have a large new division, we could go back and say, I don't see you ever hiring those people. So we do have multiple points of light that all really have to come together. It is a tremendously interesting job in a bit of a challenge, but it's one that keeps me up. >> Okay, I often joke. Well, well, Doctor, Uh, Oz. Sorry, Dr Watson. Replace Dr Welby and the answer comes back. Well, you won't replace Dr Oz because you still have to have that nurturing and that interaction. Do you feel as though machine intelligence Based on what? You know, Gardner analysts, You got experts? Many, I'm sure that Follow artificial intelligence machine intelligence. Do you feel like you guys can start applying? Aye, aye. Deep learning, et cetera. To identify patterns to make your job easier, more effective, more science than art. What? Your thoughts on >> that? Well, we have taken a different road. Artificial intelligence requires a lot of good bad data going into it in order to make the right decision. It is changing so quickly. It's difficult to get enough data points together to train and artificial intelligence. We do do some augmentation way. Do have tools that automates certain processes for us and feed us results from multiple millions of data points. But at the end of the day, it's not about coming up with four trillion dollars. That's interesting to anybody. It's the why is it four trillion dollars? Why is it a different four trillion dollars than last year's three point nine trillion dollars? And what's the changing environment that is going >> on >> and the story behind it? The segments, the share shifts and those other trends that you're seeing? >> Because everybody on this floor, all of these eyes start ups, they desperately want to make my number's wrong. They want to change the market in such a dramatic way that they disrupt all of the spending. I can't train in a eye to watch for that >> is your background in econometrics. You an economist? Do you have a math whiz or you're computer scientist? >> All of that, Yeah, have degrees in economics and statistics. I have forty years almost in computer programming been through this cycle for many, many times. So I did a great job from he has all of my sword skill sets coming together. >> You're obviously not a one man band. You mentioned you do, you know, spend millions of dollars on surveys. Two hundred fifty thousand enquiries, but still hurting all that data and actually making sense of it, is it is. It is a challenge. How do you How do you manage that? How are you evolving your your systems, your models? I mean what you used today The tooling is different than it was ten years ago, and you've gotta stay. Current >> are are forecasting model generically. We call the market dynamic models, and what they do is build out user behavior. Where's demand coming from? How are we fulfilling on that demand? What do we do with the investments that we've already made? The's models run from nineteen eighty through twenty thirty. It takes somewhere in the neighborhood of eight hundred thousand calculations to come up with one segment forecast for forty three countries. We have over two hundred fifty segments that we forecast, so you could see the complexity that we're getting into. There are over two hundred fifty analysts that gardener who are working on from what we call her our technology and service provider research group, to help our vendor clients know where their market is, know where it's going, and the partners that they should be looking >> towards you factor in or how do you factor in if it all your geo political trends? Um, tariffs, things of that nature. What do you say? You know what we're gonna do? A clean forecast on DH. Let the market figure that out. How do you handle it? At >> the end of the day, there's two very important pieces within a model. They break into signal and noise. The signal is the shifting buying patterns. When the demand level changes, there's a signal there when a choice pattern changes. Instead of buying license software, I'm starting to buy Cloud. That's a signal change. Those are the things that we focus on. The stuff that you were talking about the economic situations brexit, terrorists, China. Those were all noise. They're important. They have to be taken account of in the model, but they're not the most important thing. All right, Brexit right now is depressing the US air, the European spending on it. It is below that one point one percent growth rate. Because of the uncertainty. People are keeping their finger, their hands in their pockets when it comes to big changes in it. But the big shift is still happening. We're still seeing movement towards cloud. We're still seeing movement towards digital business. All those big signals air there, there dampened a little bit by the noise of the economy. >> So the rip currents obviously cloud. You mentioned that digital business, which I interpreted is data orientation toward a business a little >> bit more with you. >> But please add some color to that. And what are some of the other rip currents that you're seeing? >> Artificial intelligence is another riptide that is moving through. It is a big trend that is changing what's expected of technology at every level. Digital business is changing what's expected of customer interactions at every level. Digital business ecosystems, where companies air able to interact in a way that moves data from one organization to the other without necessarily having trust, commitment or a contract is a major change that we're seeing it reduces the friction of handoff between one business and the other speeds. The process drops the cost. >> A lot of your clients are large, established businesses, gardeners well known for advising those businesses. Many of those businesses, their data lives in silos. They have legacy infrastructure, technical debt. Call it whatever you want it, and they're getting disrupted by these. You know, the guys who were doing Cloud Native, all the guys out here that want to make your full forecast wrong. How does Gardner see just sort of anecdotally, those guys closing the gap, the traditional, the incumbents closing that gap >> into the source extent they don't have to, right? Certainly their size is going to give them longevity. Whether they make change or not, they will see their influence on the market. Chip away if they don't start to, they don't have the same urgency is the small vendors that are moving quickly. Where we see them doing things is very patiently and incrementally, they're taking different processes and moving them to the cloud. It is very common to see them take something that they're already doing are comfortably doing and moving that to a new platform and improving that small piece incremental change. The world gets better with incremental change. Where we love to see them do something is where they actually change the business model first using the technology that's going to enable that we have the company in China who has managed to get home food delivery cheaper than buying it in a restaurant because they change the business model First. They work with the places that are selling the food they're doing group on their doing direct cash, ordering they're doing guaranteed sale so that they could get food less expensively. They're using artificial intelligence to workout delivery routes and pick up so that multiple deliveries are made at the same time. In most of the world, that's not the That's not been the model. They've changed one part of delivery. We're going to make it easier for you to order food on your phone, and then we're going to charge you for the delivery, and we're going to charge you more for the food that's coming in. That's incremental. It's nice, it's helping. But when we change the model first, the outcome is so much better. >> So last course of U. S. Largest market, right? In terms >> of largest market for fifty eight percent of cloud. Spend >> little nightie spending Generally correct. Correct. China. When do you think Do you think China will overtake The U. S. Is the largest market for I spent >> china right now. Is Scott almost double the growth and cloud spending of the U. S. It is as a percentage of spends still well below. But they're the only country that is breaking the trend of following the US. They're on a much steeper incline. They could be above the US spend by twenty twenty five, even with a growth rate that the U. S. Is on. >> John. Awesome having you on. Thanks so much for having me really a pleasure having you great insights from Gardner analyst John Lovelock. And you're watching the Cube were bringing it all to you live from London this day. Volonte, we're right back right after this short break

>> live from Boston, Massachusetts. It's the queue covering your red. Have some twenty nineteen brought to you by bread. >> Welcome back to the Cube and our continuing coverage here. The Red had summit. This is six time around for us. Fifth time for stew minimum. So he still gets almost the perfect attendance. Goldmark. First time for me. So still have a lot of catching up to do. Stewed minimum. John Walls and Steve Spiker now joins us. He is the senior principal product manager. Developer tools, Red Hat and Steve. Good afternoon to you. Thanks for joining us. Thanks for having me. Let's just talk about first off development in general. I mean, there's a lot of give and take there, right? You're tryingto listen. What air? The needs. Where the deficiencies, Where can the improvements be made? But how much do you drive that on your side and how much do listen and respond to do what? You're here for. The community. >> Yeah, we do a little bit of both. And so a lot of it is responding to the community, and that's one of the areas that Red has really excelled. Is taking what's popular, what's working upstream and helping moving along make it a stable pot product or stable solution that developers can use. But we also have a certain agenda or certain platforms that we want to present. So we start from, like, various run times to actually contain our platforms. And so we want to have to kind of drive some of that initiatives on our own to help Dr Phil that because we hear it from customers a lot, it's like things you're doing are great. But like there's all these projects that need to come together sort of a product or unified experience. And so we spent a lot of our time China bring those things together as a way to help developers do those different task and also focus across like not just a job run times which we have a lot of job. >> So you might have it. You might have an in product in mind, right? And you realize that there might be a gap in terms of development, so you encourage or you try to bridged that gap a little bit. To get to that in product is that you're saying Yeah, >> so we do a lot of things to help build the pieces so that people can sometimes build their own experiences. They want. In the end, developers control kind of their own destiny, their own set of tools and a lot of customers have their own unique requirements, even like some tools they develop in house for loans, kind of regulatory reasons and other things. And so we have two, one build the pieces but also stitched the pieces together to help them have that kind of out of the box experience. Because some some customers really don't want to do that. They just want to say one kind of a turnkey solution. But then we may need to make some adjustments here and there. >> Yeah, but by Steve, you know, it's it's funny. It rhymes for me with what I saw, you know, fifteen, twenty years ago with Lennox. A lot of changes, a lot of pieces. I want to take advantage of it. But you know, a boy can somebody help me with this and you know that that's of course. Red hat rode that way pretty well right Today, cupidity is even more sprawling. There's so many different projects. There's so many pieces boy. It is complicated on DH. Therefore, how do we take advantage of that? What do I need to know? What can my platform a vendor do for me so that I don't have to manage that? Yeah, I love you. Spanned on that gives us a little bit of comparing trash. You know what's the same? What's different? Yeah, and so >> there's different aspects. I think the developer experience one thing that we talked about. It's like it just works sometimes. So, like it's if it's Cooper days. We've spent a lot time making sure it's hardened and works well. So you're not like debugging it, spending time on things that waist development time. Instead, That way, folks let on that. We also look at how we can build abstraction layers on top of that. So we built a Seelye tool called Rodeo, which is a developed, streamlined developer experience for open shift, and it's really focused on open ship. That way, that developer really just can focus on their application. They could deploy it, taken quickly, work on the changes before they commit to get, and then they can then also have a similar experience in the browser with things like Eclipse Jr Code or Dick workspaces are I got commercial offering behind that and that takes actually using the platform itself to do development, which is really, really super cool so that you can have an idea and the browser. You can also have the workspace like you're all your dependencies, like everything you would normally have on your laptop now don't need to worry about. It's now containerized and quickly spun up as a way to do development. And it's really a thing that enterprises really enjoy because they get like, quick satisfaction, like they get the stuff off the proprietary code off the death up there using their container platform, and it's building the same way they would build when they >> deployed my backgrounds on the infrastructure side. And the whole reason we have infrastructure to be able to run our abs and the Holy Grail we've wanted is you know, not not my developers. I shouldn't need to think about the stuff underneath, right? We looked at virtual ization. We look a container ization. You know, the nirvana of server lists, as they call it, is that I shouldn't have to think about that you know how we doing? Because at the end of the day, and I talked to users like Oh, jeez, well, I need to worry. What if something breaks? I need to understand the security for my environment. You know what you're seeing and talking to customers about it from there. Stop development. Yes, so they're able >> tto. It's like here's different stories, like Tool, Factor act. So it's like if you stay in certain parameters, you can have a lot of success, and that's still kind of true today. Survivalist kind of takes that to the next level, where you can really just have a predefined either a function spectacle o two and then things are really easy, and you don't have to worry about various aspects. But even though you look at the various vendors when you're working with different functions, it's even complex like, Oh, I need to provide the security on you. Make sure he sees a wire together. How do I log these things? How do I debugged when things across this mesh go wrong? And so it's like it's getting getting better. But there's still a lot of work to do to continue to improve that, and you will see a lot of innovation happening in that area, especially the work that we're working on. >> What kind of given take do you have in terms of what? Not only what is that community learning from you and the tools that you're providing them? But what are you getting back from that other than, you know, advancing a project or whatever, in terms of expertise, in terms of understanding, maybe a new wayto to build a different mouse trap. You know that someone comes up with an interesting idea. You're like, >> Wow, I >> didn't take that. Yeah, I think that's >> where, like the partnerships we've had with various companies before you go off starting out with Cooper Netease Anything in the Cave Native project last year. And that really took a different way of looking at serve elicit, moving it forward to say, Yeah, this is this is a different way. We thought about how we would do this on Cooper nowadays, even kind of like you abstract that ap I away. And it's like it's just to keep native of survivalists and then Karina use this kind of implementation detail behind that even and So that's really interesting to see things like that. And then also the recent work announcements with Microsoft and the azure functions where people like they maybe, you know, into the event sources there they would make sure that were close. That they're doing the functions are building, are running on Cooper Netease and our communities is is open shift. So it's really kind of completing the life cycle. >> So what if we could just step act, you know, if you talk about communities and open ships specifically, you've got you know, you've got partnership with Google and they've got the geeky and Antos stuff. You've got partnership for the Amazon, you know, they've got a ks, these things, they're not fully seamless and interoperable. It's, you know, I usually hear some confusion in the marketplace as to, you know, communities can run lots of places, but all the various you know, if you choose an implementation well, that your implementation and you should run that everywhere. Not I can't take all the various implementations and they're not inter swappable. So maybe you could help expand on that A little bit is toe, you know what's the goal? Where are we with this maturity here and you know, where do we need it to get? Because, you know, boy, it definitely is a little bit complicated. Least, you know, from the seat that I sit in Yeah. So it's >> somewhat complex, I think, goes back to your early days talking about letting she's like you would say you have an application that could run anywhere. They have Lenox this kind of truth. You know, there's always like certain security settings or packages you have enabled. That just holds true for elected Kuban aged world as well. You can lock it down a certain way. You could open it up a certain way. And so you see a lot of content that's delivered, assuming certain like privileges I have on the system and other systems that don't allow it. And so I think, more and more we see through the standardization something we could study in conformance testing. It really helps people like No, we want our getting in their hands. On an instance. It's really, you know, a full fledged communities or the part that they care about the most is working out well. And so I see that gave me the evil by also see tools that kind of abstract, even more so like a native, is a mentioned sort of survivalist workloads or functions themselves and then even house tool in kind of works. On top of that, like Natively understands the platform, that platform and those requirements to move those applications across the different systems because we have a lot of customers who run open ship communities as well as like many other good bearnaise kind of instances that so they have. We have this requirement to make sure we stay conforming, allow them to make sure the were closer portable, and it's an important part to move forward. So I still think there's a lot of work to be done toe to make these things a smoother processes. It's a lot of interesting things going on, though, >> So any interesting tens with workloads that's one of things we always look at is, you know, um, I just taking the old workloads. Am I doing them in a new place Or, you know, are there new new workloads and anything jumping out at you from customers that you talk to? >> Yes. So the way talk I know I mentioned several See multiple times a whole idea around this auto scaling. And Lou only losing your uplink your resources when you need to is a big deal. So we see a lot more and more of those kind of small function, single purpose things that are occurring up until, like, machine learning. Big data. It just continues. A GPU resource is we talked about running a V EMS and cos when I first heard this, like four years ago, I laughed out loud, and I really don't know. Their seriousness is something that happens. And, yeah, it's becoming mainstream now. So now kind of everything kind of fits within the current. You know, orchestrator of those workloads. >> You're not laughing anymore, right? No. No, because there's someone areas in which your concerns are certainly understandable securities. One of those a lot of attention being paid automation these days, right? And a lot of opportunity there. Is there one, or are there a couple areas where you say this is kind of where we have maybe greener pastures in terms of providing developers with really unusual tools are really more sophisticated, more complex or effective tools than than in any other area where you could use that kind of a boost. >> Yeah, I think there's a lot of things, but one thing that I see in this area is still a lot of fragmentation, like I'm not sure if I see you like this kind of a single way that things work, seeing a lot of great work, like with the Microsoft GS code tooling pieces. And I'm just saying that from an abstraction way to bring certain things together. Nice work going with Microsoft, the committee's plugging for there, and we were collaborating with them on that to extend it for some of the open shift use cases. But that just kind of moves, I think Mohr to beat the developers where they're at and will continue to invest across the different set of tools like I do, the more you keep up with these list of all these tools in the ecosystem. Everytime I present it, someone says, I don't know about those, but here's Maura that I didn't know about it, so this is just continues to grow and people continue to innovate, and I think it just think it's exciting because we continue Teo to evolve it. So I know think there's much in the way of kind of narrowing down on a smaller set of things. I think it's going to continue to expand in the sense. >> Speaking of expansion at Microsoft build yesterday, there was announcement of beloved Taquito K d a. A ce your functions with open shift. Help us parts a little bit. What, what that is. >> Yeah. So what that's about is really taking Thea's your functions and allowing those workloads to Warren on open ship because they're targeted towards Cuba. Netease and, of course, open ship those grenades distribution. So it allows that to happen. There's also that it's a unique auto scaler that kind of allows workload to be more surveillance run. So then also it's it ties into some of the azure event sorts of soul like thee. The message Cuba and bus Kafka that's there. And so now you can wire in yours your pieces, you can run it across here. Either hosted is your or on open shift with those of your function. >> Okay, just to clarify this is today separate from the K Native Initiative that you were talking about earlier. >> Yes, that's right. So this is touching on some of those points and the idea behind this project. This liken early preview announcer was like showing some progress, but they're looking in wiring in some of the chips. Start the kidney of serving pieces to allow running in those applications on open ship, but also the need of events sources. So you can take combination events and triggers your functions and do some of these exciting things. >> Can I ask you, you're doing sessions here at this show? You know how many of the people here you know, talking about survivalists and looking at that bleeding edge or there? There are other technologies that you find them spending a little bit more time in the tooling. It's >> a wide range. I'm really shocked by what some of the customers are like. Bleeding edge Kate made. It was like, Oh, you know, we saw whatever zero dot three release out there with this, and we'd really like this auto scaling capability because we're spending a lot of money running these applications that are not doing anything, So we like the better auto scaler that's out there. The others are really just like trying to understand more about container technology. I was just talking to Jen one early after a session. He's like, This is what we're trying to do. We need to contain your eyes applications. How do I build a CIA pipeline around it? So it's a It's a wide range of things you see here. Well, >> you certainly at the center of this inspiration, the innovation of the industry. I know you're an exciting place, and it's kind of something new every day for you. Probably right. >> Oh, it is. Yeah. Especially when these big conference and announcements come >> out. Gear up, right? Yeah, Exactly. Good job, Steve. Thank you for joining us here. We appreciate the time and wish you well down the road. >> Take me much. Enjoyed being on >> you, Steve Spiker from Red Hat. Joining this here for the first time on the Q. Good to have you, Steve. Good Have you with us as we continue our coverage from Boston. But the Red Hat Summit

>> fly from San Francisco. It's the Cube covering Google Cloud next nineteen, brought to you by Google Cloud and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back. This is Day three of Google Cloud. Next, you're watching the Cube, the leader in live tech coverage. The cube goes out to the events. We extract the signal from the noise. My name is Dave Volante. I'm here with my co host to minimum. John Farrier has been here >> all week. Wall to wall >> coverage, three days. Check out cube dot net for all the videos. Silicon angle dot com For all the news, Eric Brewer is here is the vice president of Infrastructure and a Google fellow. Dr Breuer, Thanks for coming on The Cube. >> Happy to be here to see >> you. So tell us the story of sort of infrastructure and the evolution at Google. And then we'll talk about how you're you're taking what you've learned inside a googol and helping customers apply it. >> Yeah, one or two things about Google is it essentially makes no use of virtual machines internally. That's because Google started in nineteen ninety eight, which is the same year that VM where started it was kind of brought the modern virtual machine to bear. And so good infrastructure tends to be built really on kind of classic Unix processes on communication. And so scaling that up, you get a system that works a lot with just prophecies and containers. So kind of when I saw containers come along with Doctor who said, Well, that's a good model for us and we could take what we know internally, which was called Boring a big scheduler and we could turn that into Cooper Netease and we'LL open source it. And suddenly we have kind of a a cloud version of Google that works the way we would like it to work a bit more about the containers and AP eyes and services rather than kind of the low level infrastructure. >> Would you refer from from that comment that you essentially had a cleaner sheet of paper when when containers started to ascend, I >> kind of feel like it's not an accident. But Google influenced Lena Lennox's use of containers right, which influenced doctors use of containers, and we kind of merged the two concepts on. It became a good way to deploy applications that separates the application from the underlying machine instead of playing a machine and OS and application together, we'd actually like to separate those and say we'LL manage the Western machine and let's just deploy applications independent of machines. Now we can have lots of applications for machine improved realization. Improve your productivity. That's kind of way we're already doing internally what was not common in the traditional cloud. But it's actually a more productive way to work, >> Eric. My backgrounds and infrastructure. And, you know, I was actually at the first doctor. Calm back in twenty fourteen, only a few hundred of us, you know, right across the street from where we were here. And I saw the Google presentation. I was like, Oh, my gosh, I lived through that wave of virtual ization, and the nirvana we want is I want to just be able to build my application, not worry about all of those underlying pieces of infrastructure we're making progress for. We're not there. How are we doing as an industry as a whole? And, you know, get Teo, say it's where are we? And what Google looking that Cooper, Netease and all these other pieces to improve that. What do you still see is the the the room for growth. >> Well, it's pretty clear that you Burnett is one in the sense that if you're building new applications for enterprise, that's currently the way you would build them now. But it doesn't help you move your legacy stuff on it for, say, help you move to the cloud. It may be that you have worth loads on Crim that you would like to modernize their on V EMS or bare metal, their traditional kind of eighties APS in Java or whatever. And how does Cooper Netease affect those? That's that's actually still place where I think things are evolving. The good news now is much easier to mix kind of additional services and new services using SDO and other things on GC people contain arising workloads. But actually it would say most people are actually just do the new stuff in Cooper Netease and and wrapped the old stuff to make it look like a service that gets you pretty far. And then over time you khun containerized workloads that you really care about. You want to invest in and what's new with an so so you can kind of make some of those transitions on fram. Ifyou'd like separate from moving to the cloud and then you can decide. Oh, this workload goes in the cloud. This work load. I need to keep on priming for awhile, but I still want to modernize it of a lot more flexibility. >> Can you just parts that a little bit for us? You're talking about the migration service that that's that's coming out? Or is it part of >> the way the Val Estrada work, which is kind of can take a V M A. Converted to a container? It's a newer version of that which really kind of gives you a A manifest, essentially for the container. So you know what's inside it. You can actually use it as in the modern way. That's migration tool, and it's super useful. But I kind of feel like even just being able to run high call the Communities on Crim is a pretty useful step because you get to developer velocity, you get released frequency. You get more the coupling of operations and development, so you get a lot of benefits on treme. But also, when you move to cloud, you could go too geeky and get a you know, a great community experience whenever you're ready to make that transition. >> So it sounds like that what you described with Santos is particularly on from pieces like an elixir to help people you know more easily get to a cloud native environment and then, ultimately, Brigitte to the >> class. That's kind of like we're helping people get cloud native benefits where they are right now. On a day on their own time. Khun decide. You know not only when to move a workload, but even frankly, which cloud to move it to right. We prefer, obviously moved to Google Cloud, and we'LL take our chances because I think these cattle native applications were particularly good at. But it's more important that they are moving to this kind of modern platform but helps them, and it increases our impact on the Indus. Sory to have this happen. >> Help us understand the nuance there because there's obvious benefits of being in the public cloud. You know, being able to rent infrastructure op X versus cap packs and manage services, etcetera. But to the extent that you could bring that cloud experience, Tio, you're on premises to your data. That's what many people want to have that hybrid experience for sure. But but other than that, the obvious benefits that I get from a public cloud, what are the other nuances of actually moving into the public cloud from experience standpoint in the business value perspective? >> Well, one question is, how much rewriting do you have to do because it's a big transition? Moved a cloud that's also big transition to rewrite some of your applications. So in this model, we're actually separating those two steps, and you can do them in either order. You can lift and shift to move to cloud and then modernize it, but it's also perfectly fine. I'm gonna modernize on Graham, read my do my rewrites in a safe controlled environment that I understand this low risk for me. And then I'm going to move it to the cloud because now I have something that's really ready for the cloud and has been thought through carefully that way on that having those two options is actually an important change. With Anthony >> Wavered some stats. I think Thomas mentioned them that eighty percent of the workloads are still on prams way here. That all the time. And some portion of those workloads are mission critical workloads with a lot of custom code that people really don't want to necessarily freeze. Ah, and a lot of times, if you gonna migrate, you have to free. So my question is, can I bring some of those Antos on other Google benefits to on Prem and not have to freeze the code, not have to rewrite just kind of permanently essentially, uh, leave those there and it take my other stuff and move it into the cloud? Is that what people are doing? And can I >> work? Things mix. But I would say the beachhead is having well managed Cooper and his clusters on Prem. Okay, you can use for new development or a place to do your read rights or partial read writes. You convicts V EMS and mainframes and Cooper Netease. They're all mix herbal. It's not a big problem, especially this to where it could make him look like they're part of the same service >> on framework, Right? >> S o. I think it's more about having the ability to execute modern development on prim and feel like you're really being able to change those acts the way you want and on a good timeline. >> Okay, so I've heard several times this week that Santos is a game changer. That's how Google I think is looking at this. You guys are super excited about it. So one would presume then that that eighty percent on Prem is gonna just gonna really start to move. What your thoughts on that? >> I think the way to think about it is all the customs you talked to actually do want to move there were close to cloud. That's not really the discussion point anymore. It's more about reasons they can't, which could be. They already have a data center. They fully paid for two. There's regulatory issues they have to get resolved to. This workload is too messy. They don't want to touch it at all. The people that wrote it are here anymore. There's all kinds of reasons and so it's gone. I feel like the essence of it is let's just interacted the customer right now before they make a decision about their cloud on DH, help them and in exchange for that, I believe we have a much better chance to be their future clown, right? Right, Because we're helping them. But also, they're starting to use frameworks that were really good at all. Right, if they're betting on coordinates containers, I like our chances for winning their business down the road. >> You're earning their trust by providing those those capabilities. >> That's really the difference. We can interact with those eighty percent of workloads right now and make them better. >> Alright. So, Eric, with you, the term we've heard a bunch this meat, we because we're listening customers where we're meeting them where they are now. David Iran analyst. So we could tell customers they suck out a lot stuff. You should listen to Google. They're really smart, and they know how to do these things, right? Hopes up. Tell us some of those gaps there is to the learnings you've had. And we understand. You know, migrations and modernization is a really challenging thing, you know? What are some of those things that customers can do toe >> that's on the the basic issues. I would say one thing you get you noticed when using geeky, is that huh? The os has been passed for me magically. All right, We had these huge security issues in the past year, and no one on G had to do anything right. They didn't restart their servers. We didn't tell them. Oh, you get down time because we have to deal with these massive security tax All that was magically handled. Uh, then you say, Oh, I want to upgrade Cooper Netease. Well, you could do that yourself. Guess what? It's not that easy to do. Who Burnett is is a beast, and it's changing quickly every quarter. That's good in terms of velocity and trajectory, and it's the reason that so many people can participate at the same time. If you're a group trying to run communities on Prem, it's not that easy to do right, So there's a lot of benefit Justin saying We update Custer's all the time. Wear experts at this way will update your clusters, including the S and the Cuban A's version, and we can give you modern ing data and tell you how your clusters doing. Just stuff. It honestly is not core to these customers, right? They want to focus on there advertising campaign or their Their oil and gas were close. They don't want to focus on cluster management. So that's really the second thing >> they got that operating model. If I do Antos in my own data center of the same kind of environment, how do we deal with things like, Well, I need to worry about change management testing at all my other pieces Most of the >> way. The general answer to that is, you use many clusters. You could have a thousand clusters on time. If you want that, there's good reason to do that. But one reason is, well, upgrade the clusters individually so you could say, Let's make this cluster a test cluster We'LL upgrade it first and we'LL tell you what broke. If anything, if you give us tests we can run the test on then once we're comfortable that the upgrade is working, we'LL roll it out to all your clusters. Automatic thing with policy changes. You want to change your quota management or access control. We can roll up that change in a progressive way so that we do it first on clusters that are not so critical. >> So I gotta ask a question. You software guy, Uh and you're approaching this problem from a real software perspective. There are no box. I don't see a box on DH there. Three examples in the marketplace as your stack er, Oracle Clouded customer and Amazon Outpost Where there's a box. A box from Google. Pure software. Why no box? Do you need a box? The box Guys say you gotta have that. You have a box? Yes, you don't have a box, >> There's it's more like I would say, You don't have to have a box >> that's ever box. Okay, that's >> because again all these customers sorting the data center because they already have the hardware, right. If they're going to buy new hardware, they might as well move to cloud the police for some of the customers. And it turns out we can run on. Most of their hardware were leveraging VM wear for that with the partnership we announced here. So that's generally works. But that being said, we also now partnerships with Dell and others about if you want a box Cisco, Dell, HP. You can Actually, we'LL have offerings that way as well, and there's certainly good reason to do that. You can get up that infrastructure will know it works well. It's been tested, but the bottom line is, uh, we're going to do both models. >> Yeah, okay. So I could get a full stack from hardware through software. Yet through the partnerships on there's Your stack, >> Right And it'll always come from Partners were really working with a partner model for a lot of these things because we honestly don't have enough people to do all the things we would like to do with these customers. >> And how important is it that that on Prem Stack is identical from homogeneous with what's in the public cloud? Is it really? It sounds like you're cooking growing, but their philosophies well, the software components have to be >> really at least the core pieces to be the same, like Uber Netease studio on a policy management. If youse open source things like my sequel or Kafka or elastic, those auto operate the same way as well, right? So that when you're in different environments, you really kind of get the feeling of one environment one stroll plane used. Now that being said, if you want to use a special feature like I want to use big query that's only available on Google Cloud right, you can call it but that stuff won't be portable. Likewise is something you want to use on Amazon. You can use it, and that part will be portable. But at least you'LL get the most. Your infrastructure will be consistent across the platforms. >> How should we think about the future? You guys, I mean, just without giving away, you know, confidential information, obviously not going to do that, but just philosophically, Were you going when you talk to customers? What should their mindset be? How should they repeat preparing for the future? >> Well, I think it's a few bets were making. So you know, we're happy to work on kind of traditional cloud things with Bush machines and discs and lots of classic stuff that's still important. It's still needed. But I would say a few things that are interesting that we're pushing on pretty hard won in general. This move to a higher level stack about containers and AP eyes and services, and that's Cuba nowadays and SDO and its genre. But then the other thing I think interesting is we're making a pretty fundamental bit on open source, and it's a it's a deeper bad, then others air making right with partnerships with open source companies where they're helping us build the manage version of there of their product on. So I think that's that's really going to lead to the best experience for each of those packages, because the people that developed that package are working on it right, and we will share revenue with them. So it's it's, uh, Cooper. What is open source? Tension flows open. Source. This is kind of the way we're going to approach this thing, especially for a hybrid and mostly cloud where they're really in my mind is no other way to do multi cloud other than open source because it's the space is too fast moving. You're not going to say, Oh, here's a standard FBI for multi cloud because whatever a pair you define is going to be obsolete in a quarter or two, right? What we're saying is, the standard is not particular standard per se. It's the collection of open source software that evolves together, and that's how you get consistency across the environment is because the code is the same and in fact there is a standard. But we don't even know what it is exactly right. It's it's implicit in the code, >> Okay, but so any other competitors say, Okay, we love open source, too, will embrace open stores. What's different about Google's philosophy? >> Well, first of all, you could just look at a very high level of contribution back into the open source packages, not just the ones that were doing. You can see we've contributed things like the community's trademark so that that means it's actually not a Google thing anymore. Belonged to the proud Native Reading Foundation. But also, the way we're trying to partner with open source projects is really to give them a path to revenue. All right, give them a long term future on DH. Expectation is, that makes the products better. And it also means that, uh, we're implicitly preferred partner because we're the ones helping them. All >> right, Eric, One of things caught our attention this week really kind of extending containers with things like cloud code and cloud run. You speak a little bit to that and you know directionally where that's going, >> Yeah, crowd runs one of my favorite releases of this week. Both the one God code is great, also, especially, it's V s code integration which is really nice for developers. But I would say the cloud run kind of says we can take you know, any container that has a kind of a stateless thing inside and http interface and make it something we can run for you in a very clean way. What I mean by that is you pay per call and in particular Well, listen twenty four seven and case it call comes But if no call comes, we're going to charge you zero, right? So we'll eat the cost of listening for your package to arrive. But if a packet arrives for you, we will magically make sure you're there in time to execute it on. If you get a ton of connections, we'll scale you up. We could have a thousand servers running your cloud run containers. And so what you get is a very easy deployment model That is a generalization. Frankly, of functions, you can run a function, but you also run not only a container with kind of a managed run time ap engine style, but also any arbitrary container with your own custom python and image processing libraries. Whatever you want, >> here are our last guest at Google Cloud next twenty nineteen. So thank you. And so put a bow on the show this year. Obviously got the bigger, better shiny er Mosconi Center. It's awesome. Definitely bigger crowd. You see the growth here, but but tie a bow. Tell us what you think. Take us home. >> I have to say it's been really gratifying to see the reception that anthrax is getting. I do think it is a big shift for Google and a big shift for the industry. And, uh, you know, we actually have people using it, so I kind of feel like we're at the starting line of this change. But I feel like it's it's really resonated well this week, and it's been great to watch the reaction. >> Everybody wants their infrastructure to be like Google's. This is one of the people who made it happen. Eric, Thanks very much for coming in the Cube. Appreciate. Pleasure. All right, keep right, everybody. We'Ll be back to wrap up Google Cloud next twenty nineteen. My name is David. Dante. Student meant John Furry will be back on set. You're watching. The cube will be right back