>>Good morning, brilliant humans. Good afternoon or good evening, depending on your time zone. My name is Savannah Peterson and I'm here live with the Cube. We are at CubeCon in Detroit, Michigan. And joining me is my beautiful co-host, Lisa, how you feeling? Afternoon of day three. >>Afternoon day three. We've had such great conversations. We have's been fantastic. The momentum has just been going like this. I love it. >>Yes. You know, sometimes we feel a little low when we're at the end of a conference. Not today. Don't feel that that way at all, which is very exciting. Just like the guests that we have up for you next. Kind of an unexpected player when we think about technology. However, since every company, one of the themes is every company is trying to be a software company. I love that we're talking to I n G. Joining us today is Ty Evers and Arno vk. Welcome to the show gentlemen. Thank >>You very much. Glad to be you. Thank you. >>Yes, it's wonderful. All the way in from Amsterdam. Probably some of the farthest flying folks here for this adventure. Starting off. I forgot what's going on with the shirts guys. You match very well. Tell, tell everyone. >>Well these are our VR code shirts. VR code is basically the player of our company to get people interested as an IT person in banking. Right? Actually, people don't think banking is a good place to work as an IT professional, but actually this, and we are using the OC went with these nice logos to get it attention. >>I love that. So let's actually, let's just talk about that for a second. Why is it such an exciting role to be working in technology at a company like I N G or traditional bank? >>I N G is a challenging environment. That's how do you make an engineer happy, basically give them a problem to solve. So we have lots and lots of problems to solve. So that makes it challenging. But yeah, also rewarding. And you can say a lot of things about banks and with looking at the IT perspective, we are doing amazing things in I and that's what we talked about. Can >>You, can you tell us any of those amazing things or are they secrets? >>Think we talked about last Tuesday at S shift commons conference. Yeah, so we had two, two presentations I presented with my coho sand on my journey over the last three years. So what has IG done? Basically building a secure container hosting platform. Yeah. How do we live a banking cot with cloud native technology and together with our coho young villa presented actually showed it by demo making life and >>Awesome >>In person. So we were not just presenting, >>It's not all smoke and mirrors. It's >>Not smoke and mirror, which we're not presenting our fufu marketing block now. We actually doing it today. And that's what we wanted to share here. >>Well, and as consumers we expect we can access our banking on any device 24 by seven. I wanna be able to do all my transactions in a way that I know is secure. Obviously security's a huge thing there, but talk about I n G Bank aren't always been around for a very long time. Talk about this financial institution as a software company. Really obviously a lot of challenges to solve, a lot of opportunity. But talk about what it's like working for a history and bank that's really now a tech company. >>Yes. It's been really changing as a bank to a tech company. Yeah. We have a lot of developers and operators and we do deliver offer. We OnPrem, we run in the public. So we have a huge engineers and people around to make our software. Yes. And I am responsible for the i Container Ocean platform and we deliver that the name space as a surface and as a real, real secure environment. So our developers, all our developers in, I can request it, but they only get a name space. Yeah, that's very important there. They >>Have >>Resources and all sort of things. Yeah. And it is, they cannot access it. They can only access it by one wifi. So, >>So Lisa and I were chatting before we brought you up here. Name space as a service. This is a newer term for us. Educate us. What does that mean? >>Basically it means we don't give a full cluster to our consumers, right? We only give them basically cpu, memory networking. That's all they need to host application. Everything else we abstract away. And especially in a banking context where compliance is a big thing, you don't need to do compliance for an entire s clusterized developer. It's really saves development time for the colleagues in the bank. It >>Decreases the complexity of projects, which is a huge theme here, especially at scale. I can imagine. I mean, my gosh, you're serving so many different people, it probably saves you time. Let's talk about regulation. What, how challenging is that for you as technologists to balance in all the regulations around banking and FinTech? It's, it's, it's, it's not like some of these kind of wild, wild west industries where we can just go out and play and prototype and do whatever we want. There's a lot of >>Rules. There's a lot of rules. And the problem is you have legislation and you have the real world. Right. And you have to find something in, they're >>Not the same thing. >>You have to find something in between with both parties on the stands and cannot adhere to. Yeah. So the challenge we had, basically we had to wide our, in our own container security standards to prove that the things we were doing were the white things to be in control as a bank because there was no market standard for container security. So basically we took some input from this. So n did a lot of good work. We basically added some things on top to be valid for a bank in Europe. So yeah, that's what we did. And the nice thing is today we take all the boxes we defined back in 2019. >>Hey, so you what it's, I guess, I guess the rules are a little bit easier when you get to help define them. Yep. Yeah. That it feels like a very good strategic call >>And they makes sense. Yeah. Right. Because the hardest problem is try to be compliant for something which doesn't make sense. Right, >>Right. Arnold, talk about, let's double click on namespace as a service. You talked about what that is, but give us a little bit of information on why I N G really believes this is the right approach for this company. >>It's protects for the security that developers doing things they don't shoot. Yeah. They cannot access their store anymore when it is running in production. And that is the most, most important. That is, it is immutable running in our platform. >>Excellent. Talk about both of you. How long have you, have you both been at I n G for a long time? >>I've been with I N G since September, 2001. So that's more than 20 years >>Now. Long time. Ana, what about you? >>Before 2000 already before. >>So both of your comment on that's a long time. Yeah. Talk about the culture of innovation that's at I N G to be able to move at such speed and be groundbreaking in what you're, how you're using technology, what, what's the appetite like at the bank to embrace new and emerging technologies? >>So we are really looking, basically the, the mantra of the bank is to help our customers get a step ahead in life and in business. And we do that by one superior customer service and secondly, sustainability at the heart. So anything which contributes to those targets, you can go to your manager and if you can make goods case why it contributes most of the cases you get some time or some budgets or even some additional colleagues to help you out and give it a try require from a culture perspective required open to trying things out before we reach production. Once you go to production. Yeah. Then we are back to being a bank and you need to take all the boxes to make really sure that we are confident with our customers data and basically we're still a bank but a lot of is possible. >>A lot. It is possible. And there's the customer on the other end who's expecting, like I said earlier, that they can access their data any time that they want, be able to do any transaction they want, making sure the content that's delivered to them is relevant, that it's secure. Obviously with, that's the biggest challenge especially is we think about how many generations are alive today and and those that aren't tech savvy. Yeah. Have challenges with that. Talk about what the bank's dedication is to ensuring from a security perspective that its customers don't have anything to worry about. >>That's always a thin line between security and the user experience. So I n g, like every other bank needs to make choices. Yes. We want the really ease of customers and take the risk that somebody abuses it or do we make it really, really secure and alienate part of our customer base. And that's an ongoing, that's a, that's a a hard, >>It's a trade off. That's >>A line. >>So it's really hard. Interesting part is in Netherlands we had some debates about banks closing down locations, but the moment we introduced our mobile weapon iPads, basically the debates became a lot quieter because a lot of elderly people couldn't work with an iPhone. It turned out they were perfectly fine with a well-designed iPad app to do their banking. Really? >>Okay. >>But that's already learning from like 15 years ago. >>What was the, what was the product roadmap on that? So how, I mean I can imagine you released a mobile app, you're not really thinking that. >>That's basically, I think that was a heavy coincidence. We just, Yeah, okay. Went out to design a very good mobile app. Yeah. And then looking out afterwards at the statistics we say, hey, who was using this way? We've got somebody who's signing on and I dunno the exact age, but it was something like somebody of 90 plus who signed on to use that mobile app. >>Wow. Wow. I mean you really are the five different generations living and working right now. Designing technology. Everybody has to go to the bank whether we are fans of our bank or we're not. Although now I'm thinking about IG as a bank in general. Y'all have a a very good attitude about it. What has kept you at the company for over 20 years? That is we, we see people move around, especially in this technology industry. Yes. Yeah. You know, every two to three years. Sometimes obviously you're in positions of leadership, they're obviously taking good care of you. But I mean multiple decades. Why have you stuck? >>Well first I didn't have the same job in I N D for two decades. Nice. So I went around the infrastructure domain. I did storage initially I did security, I did solution design and in the end I ended up in enterprise architecture. So yeah, it's not like I stuck 20 years in the same role. So every so years >>Go up the ladder but also grow your own skill sets. >>Explore. Yeah. >>So basically I think that's what's every, everybody should be thinking in these days. If you're in a cloud head industry, if you're good at it, you can out quite a nice salary. But it also means that you have some kind of obligation to society to make a difference. And I think, yeah, >>I wouldn't say that everybody feels that way. I >>Need to make a difference with I N G A difference for being more available to our consumers, be more secure to, to our consumers. I, I think that's what's driving me to stick with the company. >>What about you R Now? >>Yes, for me it's very important. Every two, three years are doing new things. I can work with the latest technology so I become really, really innovative so that it is the place to be. >>Yeah. You sort of get that rotation every two to three years with the different tools that you're using. Speaking of or here we're at Cuan, we're talking cloud native, we're talking Kubernetes. Do you think it's possible to, I'm coming back to the regulations. Do you think it's possible to get to banking grade security with cloud native Tech? >>Initially I said we would be at least as secure traditional la but last Tuesday we've proven we can get more secure than situational it. So yeah, definitely. Yes. >>Awesome. I mean, sounds like you proved it to yourself too, which is really saying something. >>Well we actually have Penta results and of course I cannot divulge those, but I about pretty good. >>Can you define, I wanna kind of double book on thanking great security, define what that is, thanking great security and how could other industries aim to Yeah, >>Hit that, that >>Standard. I want security everywhere. Especially my bank. The >>Architecture is zero privilege. So you hear a lot about lease privilege in all the security talks. That's not what you should be aiming for. Zero privilege is what you should be aiming for. And once you're at zero privileged environments, okay, who can leak data because no natural person has access to it. Even if you have somebody invading your infrastructure, there are no privileges. They cannot do privilege escalations. Yeah. So the answer for me is really clear. If you are handling customer data, if you're and customer funds aim for zero privilege architecture, >>What, what are you most excited about next? What's next for you guys? What's next for I n G? What are we gonna be talking about when we're chatting to you Right here? Atan next year or in Amsterdam actually, since we're headed that way in the spring, which is fun. Yes. >>Happy to be your host in Amsterdam. The >>Other way around. We're holding you to that. You've talked about how fun the culture is. Now you're gonna ask, she and I we need, but we need the tee-shirts. We, we obviously need a matching outfit. >>Definitely. We'll arrange some teachers for you as well. Yeah, no, for me, two highlights from this com. The first one was kcp. That can potentially be a paradigm change on how we deal with workloads on Kubernetes. So that's very interesting. I don't know if you see any implementations by next year, but it's definitely something. Looks >>Like we had them on the show as well. Yeah. So it's, it's very fun. I'm sure, I'm sure they'll be very flattered that you just just said. What about you Arnoldo that got you most excited? >>The most important for me was talking to a lot of Asian is other people. What if they thinking how we go forward? So the, the, the community and talk to each other. And also we found those and people how we go forward. >>Yeah, that's been a big thing for us here on the cube and just the energy, the morale. I mean the open source community is so collaborative. It creates an entirely different ethos. Arna. Ty, thank you so much for being here. It's wonderful to have you and hear what I n g is doing in the technology space. Lisa, always a pleasure to co-host with you. Of course. And thank you Cube fans for hanging out with us here on day three of Cuban Live from Detroit, Michigan. My name is Savannah Peterson and we'll see you up next for a great chat coming soon.

>> Announcer: Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE, covering Interconnect 2017. Brought to you by IBM. >> Hey, welcome back everyone. We're live here in Las Vegas at the Mandalay Bay for IBM InterConnect 2017 exclusive Cube coverage. I'm John Furrier, my co-host Dave Vellante, our next guest Dr. Angel Diaz who is the vice president of developer technology. Also you know him from the open source world. Great to see you again. >> Nice to see you. Thanks for spending time with us. >> Thank you. >> Boy, Blockchain, open source, booming, cloud-native, booming, hybrid cloud, brute force but rolling strong. Enterprise strong, if you will, as your CEO Ginni Rometty started talking about yesterday. Give us the update on what's going on with the technology and developers because this is something that you guys, you personally, have been spending a lot of time with. Developer traction, what's the update? >> Well you know if you look at history there's been this democratization of technology. Right, everything from object oriented programming to the internet where we realize if we created open communities you can build more skill, more value, create more innovation. And each one of these layers you create abstractions. You reduce the concept count of what developers need to know to get work done and it's all about getting work done faster. So, you know, we've been systematically around cloud, data, and AI, working really hard to make sure that you have open source communities to support those. Whether it's in things like compute, storage, and network, platform as a service like say Cloud Foundry, what we're doing around the open container initiatives and the Cloud Native Computing Foundation to all the things you see in the data space and everywhere else. So it's real exciting and it's real important for developers. >> So two hot trends that we're tracking obviously, one's pretty obvious. That's machine learning in cloud. Really hand and glove together. You see machine learning really powering the AI, hitting IOT all the way up to apps and wearables and what not, autonomous vehicles. Goes on and on. The other one is Kubernetes, and Kubernetes, the rise of Kubernetes has really brought the containers to a whole nother level around multi-cloud. People might not know it, but you are involved in the CNCF formation, which is Kubernetes movement, which was KubeCon, then it became part of the Linux Foundation. So, IBM has had their hand in these two trends pretty heavily. >> Angel: Oh yeah, absolutely. >> Give the perspective, because the Kubernetes one, in particular, we'll come back to the machine learning, but Kubernetes is powering a whole nother abstraction layer around helping containers go to the next level with microservices, where the develop equation has changed. It's not just the person writing code anymore, a person writing code throws off an application that has it's own life in relationship to other services in the community, which also has analytics tied to it. So, you're seeing a changing dynamic on this potential with Kubernetes. How important is Kubernetes, and what is the real impact? >> No, it is important. And what there actually is, there's a couple of, I think, application or architecture trends that are fundamentally changing how we build applications. So one of them I'll call, let's call it Code First. This is where you don't even think about the Kubernetes layer. All you do is you want to write your code and you want to deploy your code, and you want it to run. That's kind of the platform. Something like Cloud Foundry addresses the Code First approach. Then there's the whole event-drive architecture world. Serverless, right? Where it has a particular use case, event-driven, standing, stuff up and down, dealing with many types of inputs, running rules. Then you have, let's say the more transactional type applications. Microservices, right? These three thing, when combined allows you to kind of break the shackles of the monolith of old application architectures, and build things the way that best suit your application model, and then come together in much more coherent way. Specifically in Kubernetes, and that whole container stuff. You think think about it, initially, when, containers have been around a long time, as we all know, and Docker did a great job in making container accessible and easy, right? And we worked really closely with them to create some multisource activities around the base container definitions, the open container initiative in the Linux Foundation. But of course, that wasn't enough. We need to then start to build the management and the orchestration around that. So we teamed up with others and started to kind of build this Kubernetes-based community. You know, Docker just recently brought ContainerD into the CNCF, as well, as another layer. They are within the equation. But by building this, it's almost just Russian doll of capability, right, you know, you're able to go from one paradigm, whether it's a serverless paradigm running containers, or having your microservices become use in serverless or having Code First kick off something, you can have these things work well together. And I think that's the most exciting part of what we're doing at Kubernetes, what we're doing in serverless, and what we're doing, say, in this Code First world. >> So, development's always been kind of an art form. How is that art form evolving and changing as these trends that you're describing-- >> Oh, that's a great, I love that. 'Cause I always think of ourselves as computer science artists. You and I haven't spoken about that. That's awesome. Yeah, because, you know, it is an art form, right? Your screen is your canvas, right, and colors are the services that you can bring in to build, and the API calls, right? And what's great is that your canvas never ends, because you have, say, a cloud infrastructure, which is infinitely scalable or something, right? So, yeah. But the definition of the developer is changing because we're kind of in this next phase of lowering concept count. Remember I told you this lowering of concept count. You know, I love those O'Reilly books. The little cute animals. You know, as a developer today, you don't have to buy as many of those books, because a lot of it is done in the API calls that you've used. You don't write sorting algorithms anymore. Guess what, you don't need to do speech to text algorithms. You don't need to do some analysis algorithms. So the developer is becoming a cognitive developer and a data science developer, in addition to a application developer. And that is the future. And it's really important that folks skill up. Because the demand has increased dramatically in those areas, and the need has increased as well. So it's very exciting. >> So the thing about that, that point about cognitive developer, is that in the API calls, and the reason why we don't buy all those books is, the codes out there are already in open source and machine learning is a great example, if you look at what machine learning is doing. 'Cause now you have machine learning. It used to be an art and a science. You had to be a great computer scientist and understand algorithms, and almost have that artistic view. But now, as more and more machine learning comes out, you can still write custom machine learning, but still build on libraries that are already out there. >> Exactly. So what does that do? That reduces the time it takes to get something done. And it increases the quality of what you're building, right? Because, you know, this subroutine or this library has been used by thousands and thousands of other people, it's probably going to work pretty well for your use case, right? But I can stress the importance of this moment you brought up. The cognitive data application developer coming together. You know, when the Web happened, the development market blew up in orders of magnitude. Because everybody's is sort of learning HTML, CSS, Javascript, you know, J2E, whatever. All the things they needed to build, you know, Web Uize and transactional applications. Two phase commit apps in the back, right? Here we are again, and it's starting to explode with the microservices, et cetera, all the stuff you mentioned, but when you add cognitive and data to the equation, it's just going to be a bigger explosion than the Web days. >> So we were talking with some of the guys from IBM's GBS, the Global Business Services, and the GTS, Global Technology Services, and interesting things coming out. So if you take what you're saying forward, and you open innovation model, you got business model stacks and technology stacks. So process, stacks, you know, business process, and then technology, and they now have to go hand-in-hand. So if you take what you're saying about, you know, open source, open all of this innovation, and add say, Blockchain to it, you now have another developer type. So the cognitive piece is also contributing to what looks like to be a home run with Blockchain going open source, with the ledger. So now you have the process and the stacks coming together. So now, it's almost the Holy Grail. It used to be this, "Hey, those business processor guys, they did stuff, and then the guys coded it out, built stacks. Now they're interdependent a bit. >> Yeah. Well I mean, what's interesting to me about Blockchain, I always think of, at this point about business processes, you know, business processes have always been hard to change, right? You know, once you have partners in your ecosystem, it's hard to change. Things like APIs and all the technology allows it to be much quicker now. But with Blockchain, you don't need a human involved in the decision of who's in your partner network as long as they're trusted, right? I remember when Jerry Cuomo and Chris Ferris, in my team, he's the chairman of the Blockchain, of the hyperledger group, we're talking initially when we kind of brought it to the Linux Foundation. We were talking a lot about transactions, because you know, that was one of the initial use cases. But we always kind of new that there's a lot of other use cases for this, right, in addition to that. I mean, you know, the government of China is using Blockchain to deal with carbon emissions. And they have, essentially, an economy where folks can trade, essentially, carbon units to make sure that as an industry segment, they don't go over, as an example. So you can have people coming in and out of your business process in a much more fluid way. What fascinates me about Blockchain, and it's a great point, is it takes the whole ecosystem to another level because now that they've made Blockchain successful, ecosystem component's huge. That's a community model, that's just like open source. So now you've got the confluence of open source software, now with people in writing just software, and now microservices that interact with other microservices. Not agile within a company, agile within other developers. >> Angel: Right. >> So you have a data piece that ties that together, but you also have the process and potential business model disruption, a Blockchain. So those two things are interesting to me. But it's a community role. In your expert opinion on the community piece, how do you think the community will evolve to this new dynamic? Do you think it's going to take the same straight line growth of open source, do you think there's going to be a different twist to it? You mentioned this new persona is already developing with cognitive. How do you see that happening? >> Yes, I do. There's two, let's say three points. The first on circling the community, what we've been trying to do, architecturally, is build an open innovation platform. So all these elements that make up cloud, data, AI, are open so that people can innovate, skills can grow, anything, grow faster. So the communities are actually working together. So you see lots of intralocks and subcommittees and subgroups within teams, right? Just say this kind of nesting of technology. So I think that's one megatrend that will continue-- >> Integrated communities, basically. >> Integrated communities. They do their own thing. >> Yeah. >> But to your point earlier, they don't reinvent the wheel. If I'm in Cloud Foundry and I need a container model, why am I going to create my own? I'll just use the open compute initiative container model, you know what I'm saying? >> Dave: And the integration point is that collaboration-- >> Is that collaboration, right. And so we've started to see this a lot, and I think that's the next megatrend. The second is, we just look at developers. In all this conversation, we've been talking about the what? All the technology. But the most important thing, even more so than all of this stuff, is the how. How do I actually use the technology? What is the development methodology of how I add scale, build these applications? People call that DevOp, you know, that whole area. We at IBM announced about a year and a half ago, at Gene Kim's summit, he does DevOps, the garage method, and we open sourced it, which is a methodology of how you apply Agile and all the stuff we've learned in open source, to actually using this technology in a productive way at scale. Often times people talk about working in theses little squads and so forth, but once you hire, say you've got 10 people in San Francisco, and you're going to hire one in San Ramon, that person might as well be on Mars. Because if you're not on the team there, you're not in the decision process. Well, that's not reality. Open source is not that way, the world doesn't behave that way. So this is the methodology that we talked about. The how is really important. And then the third thing, is, if you can help developers, interlock communities, teach them about the how to do this effectively, then they want samples to fork and go. Technology journeys, physical code. So what you're start to see a lot of us in open source, and even IBM, is provide starters that show people how to use the technology, add the methodology, and then help them on their journey to get value. >> So at the base level, there's a whole new set of skills that are emerging. You mentioned the O'Reilly books before, it was sort of a sequential learning process, and it seems very nonlinear now, so what do you recommend for people, how do they go about capturing knowledge, where do they start? >> I think there's probably two or three places. The first one is directly in the open source communities. You go to any open source community and there's a plethora of information, but more so, if you hang out in the right places, you know, IRC channels or wherever, people are more than willing to help you. So you can get education for free if you participate and contribute and become a good member of a community. And, in fact, from a career perspective today, that's what developers want. They want that feeling of being part of something. They want the merit badge that you get for being a core committer, the pride that comes with that. And frankly, the marketability of yourself as a developer, so that's probably the first place. The second is, look, at IBM, we spend a huge amount of time trying to help developers be productive, especially in open source, as we started this conversation. So we have a place, developer.ibm.com. You go there and you can get links to all the relevant open source communities in this open innovation platform that I've talked about. You can see the methodologies that I spoke about that is open. And then you could also get these starter code journeys that I spoke about, to help you get started. So that's one place-- >> That's coming out in April, right? >> That's right. >> The journeys. >> Yeah, but you can go now and start looking at that, at developer.ibm.com, and not all of it is IBM content. This is not IBM propaganda here, right? It is-- >> John: Real world examples. >> Real world examples, it's real open source communities that either we've helped, we've shepherded along. And it is a great place, at least, to get your head around the space and then you can subset it, right? >> Yeah. So tell us about, at the last couple of minutes we have, what IBM's doing right now from a technology, and for developers, what are you guys doing to help developers today, give the message from what IBM's doing. What are you guys doing? What's your North Star? What's the vision and some of the things you're doing in the marketplace people can get involved in? You mentioned the garage as one. I'm sure there's others. >> Yeah, I mean look, we are m6anically focused on helping developers get value, get stuff done. That's what they want to do, that's what our clients want to do, and that's what turns us on. You build your art, you talk, you're going back to art, you build your drawing, you want to look at it. You want it to be beautiful. You want others to admire it, right? So if we could help you do that, you'll be better for it, and we will be better for it. >> As long as they don't eat their ear, then they're going to be fine. >> It's subjective, but give value of what they do. So how do they give value? They give value by open technologies and how we've built, essentially, cloud, data, AI, right? So art, arts technology adds value. We get value out of the methodology. We help them do this, it's around DevOps, tooling around it, and then these starters, these on-ramps, right, to getting started. >> I got to ask you my final question, a more personal one, and Dave and I talk about this all the time off camera, being an older guy, computer science guy, you're seeing stuff now that was once a major barrier, whether it's getting access to massive compute, machine learning, libraries, the composability of the building blocks that are out there, to create art, if you will, it's phenomenal. To me, it's just like the most amazing time to be be a computer scientist, or in tech, in general, building stuff. So I'm going to ask you, what are you jazzed up about? Looking back, in today's world, the young guns that are coming onto the scene not knowing that we walked barefoot in the snow to school, back in the old days. This is like, it's a pretty awesome environment right now. Give us personal color on your take on that, the change and the opportunity. >> Yeah, so first of all, when you mentioned older guys, you were referring to yourselves, right? Because this is my first year at IBM. I just graduated, there's nothing old here, guys. >> John: You could still go to, come on (laughs). >> What does that mean? Look you know, there's two things I'm going to say. Two sides of the equation. First of all, the fundamentals of computer science never go away. I still teach, undergrad seminars and so forth, and you have to know the fundamentals of computer science. That does not go away because you can write bad code. No matter what you're doing or how many abstractions you have, there are fundamental principles you need to understand. And that guides you in building better art, okay? Now putting that aside, there is less that you need to know all the time, to get your job done. And what excites me the most, so back when we worked on the Web in the early 90s, and the markup languages, right, and I see some in the audience there, Arno, hey, Arno, who helped author some of the original Web standards with me, and he was with the W3C. The use cases for math, for the Web, was to disseminate physics, that's why Tim did it, right? The use case for XML. I was co-chair of the mathematical markup language. That was a use case for XML. We had no idea that we would be using these same protocols, to power all the apps on your phone. I could not imagine that, okay? If I would have, trust me, I would have done something. We didn't know. So what excites me the most is not being able to imagine what people will be able to create. Because we are so much more advanced than we were there, in terms of levels of abstraction. That's what's, that's the exciting part. >> All right. Dr. Angel Diaz, great to have you on theCUBE. Great inspiration. Great time to be a developer. Great time to be building stuff. IOT, we didn't even get to IOT, I mean, the prospects of what's happening in industrialization, I mean, just pretty amazing. Augmented intelligence, artificial intelligence, machine learning, really the perfect storm for innovation. Obviously, all in the open. >> Angel: Yes. Awesome stuff. Thanks for coming on the theCUBE. Really appreciate it. >> Thank you guys, appreciate it. >> IBM, making it happen with developers. Always have been. Big open source proponents. And now they got the tools, they got the garages for building. I'm John Furrier, stay with us, there's some great interviews. Be right back with more after this short break. (tech music)