(soft music) >> Hello, everyone. Welcome to theCUBE's presentation of the AWS Startup Showcase. AI and Machine Learning: Top Startups Building Foundational Model Infrastructure. This is season 3, episode 1 of the ongoing series covering the exciting stuff from the AWS ecosystem, talking about machine learning and AI. I'm your host, John Furrier and today we are excited to be joined by Luis Ceze who's the CEO of OctoML and Anna Connolly, VP of customer success and experience OctoML. Great to have you on again, Luis. Anna, thanks for coming on. Appreciate it. >> Thank you, John. It's great to be here. >> Thanks for having us. >> I love the company. We had a CUBE conversation about this. You guys are really addressing how to run foundational models faster for less. And this is like the key theme. But before we get into it, this is a hot trend, but let's explain what you guys do. Can you set the narrative of what the company's about, why it was founded, what's your North Star and your mission? >> Yeah, so John, our mission is to make AI sustainable and accessible for everyone. And what we offer customers is, you know, a way of taking their models into production in the most efficient way possible by automating the process of getting a model and optimizing it for a variety of hardware and making cost-effective. So better, faster, cheaper model deployment. >> You know, the big trend here is AI. Everyone's seeing the ChatGPT, kind of the shot heard around the world. The BingAI and this fiasco and the ongoing experimentation. People are into it, and I think the business impact is clear. I haven't seen this in all of my career in the technology industry of this kind of inflection point. And every senior leader I talk to is rethinking about how to rebuild their business with AI because now the large language models have come in, these foundational models are here, they can see value in their data. This is a 10 year journey in the big data world. Now it's impacting that, and everyone's rebuilding their company around this idea of being AI first 'cause they see ways to eliminate things and make things more efficient. And so now they telling 'em to go do it. And they're like, what do we do? So what do you guys think? Can you explain what is this wave of AI and why is it happening, why now, and what should people pay attention to? What does it mean to them? >> Yeah, I mean, it's pretty clear by now that AI can do amazing things that captures people's imaginations. And also now can show things that are really impactful in businesses, right? So what people have the opportunity to do today is to either train their own model that adds value to their business or find open models out there that can do very valuable things to them. So the next step really is how do you take that model and put it into production in a cost-effective way so that the business can actually get value out of it, right? >> Anna, what's your take? Because customers are there, you're there to make 'em successful, you got the new secret weapon for their business. >> Yeah, I think we just see a lot of companies struggle to get from a trained model into a model that is deployed in a cost-effective way that actually makes sense for the application they're building. I think that's a huge challenge we see today, kind of across the board across all of our customers. >> Well, I see this, everyone asking the same question. I have data, I want to get value out of it. I got to get these big models, I got to train it. What's it going to cost? So I think there's a reality of, okay, I got to do it. Then no one has any visibility on what it costs. When they get into it, this is going to break the bank. So I have to ask you guys, the cost of training these models is on everyone's mind. OctoML, your company's focus on the cost side of it as well as the efficiency side of running these models in production. Why are the production costs such a concern and where specifically are people looking at it and why did it get here? >> Yeah, so training costs get a lot of attention because normally a large number, but we shouldn't forget that it's a large, typically one time upfront cost that customers pay. But, you know, when the model is put into production, the cost grows directly with model usage and you actually want your model to be used because it's adding value, right? So, you know, the question that a customer faces is, you know, they have a model, they have a trained model and now what? So how much would it cost to run in production, right? And now without the big wave in generative AI, which rightfully is getting a lot of attention because of the amazing things that it can do. It's important for us to keep in mind that generative AI models like ChatGPT are huge, expensive energy hogs. They cost a lot to run, right? And given that model usage growth directly, model cost grows directly with usage, what you want to do is make sure that once you put a model into production, you have the best cost structure possible so that you're not surprised when it's gets popular, right? So let me give you an example. So if you have a model that costs, say 1 to $2 million to train, but then it costs about one to two cents per session to use it, right? So if you have a million active users, even if they use just once a day, it's 10 to $20,000 a day to operate that model in production. And that very, very quickly, you know, get beyond what you paid to train it. >> Anna, these aren't small numbers, and it's cost to train and cost to operate, it kind of reminds me of when the cloud came around and the data center versus cloud options. Like, wait a minute, one, it costs a ton of cash to deploy, and then running it. This is kind of a similar dynamic. What are you seeing? >> Yeah, absolutely. I think we are going to see increasingly the cost and production outpacing the costs and training by a lot. I mean, people talk about training costs now because that's what they're confronting now because people are so focused on getting models performant enough to even use in an application. And now that we have them and they're that capable, we're really going to start to see production costs go up a lot. >> Yeah, Luis, if you don't mind, I know this might be a little bit of a tangent, but, you know, training's super important. I get that. That's what people are doing now, but then there's the deployment side of production. Where do people get caught up and miss the boat or misconfigure? What's the gotcha? Where's the trip wire or so to speak? Where do people mess up on the cost side? What do they do? Is it they don't think about it, they tie it to proprietary hardware? What's the issue? >> Yeah, several things, right? So without getting really technical, which, you know, I might get into, you know, you have to understand relationship between performance, you know, both in terms of latency and throughput and cost, right? So reducing latency is important because you improve responsiveness of the model. But it's really important to keep in mind that it often leads diminishing returns. Below a certain latency, making it faster won't make a measurable difference in experience, but it's going to cost a lot more. So understanding that is important. Now, if you care more about throughputs, which is the time it takes for you to, you know, units per period of time, you care about time to solution, we should think about this throughput per dollar. And understand what you want is the highest throughput per dollar, which may come at the cost of higher latency, which you're not going to care about, right? So, and the reality here, John, is that, you know, humans and especially folks in this space want to have the latest and greatest hardware. And often they commit a lot of money to get access to them and have to commit upfront before they understand the needs that their models have, right? So common mistake here, one is not spending time to understand what you really need, and then two, over-committing and using more hardware than you actually need. And not giving yourself enough freedom to get your workload to move around to the more cost-effective choice, right? So this is just a metaphoric choice. And then another thing that's important here too is making a model run faster on the hardware directly translates to lower cost, right? So, but it takes a lot of engineers, you need to think of ways of producing very efficient versions of your model for the target hardware that you're going to use. >> Anna, what's the customer angle here? Because price performance has been around for a long time, people get that, but now latency and throughput, that's key because we're starting to see this in apps. I mean, there's an end user piece. I even seeing it on the infrastructure side where they're taking a heavy lifting away from operational costs. So you got, you know, application specific to the user and/or top of the stack, and then you got actually being used in operations where they want both. >> Yeah, absolutely. Maybe I can illustrate this with a quick story with the customer that we had recently been working with. So this customer is planning to run kind of a transformer based model for tech generation at super high scale on Nvidia T4 GPU, so kind of a commodity GPU. And the scale was so high that they would've been paying hundreds of thousands of dollars in cloud costs per year just to serve this model alone. You know, one of many models in their application stack. So we worked with this team to optimize our model and then benchmark across several possible targets. So that matching the hardware that Luis was just talking about, including the newer kind of Nvidia A10 GPUs. And what they found during this process was pretty interesting. First, the team was able to shave a quarter of their spend just by using better optimization techniques on the T4, the older hardware. But actually moving to a newer GPU would allow them to serve this model in a sub two milliseconds latency, so super fast, which was able to unlock an entirely new kind of user experience. So they were able to kind of change the value they're delivering in their application just because they were able to move to this new hardware easily. So they ultimately decided to plan their deployment on the more expensive A10 because of this, but because of the hardware specific optimizations that we helped them with, they managed to even, you know, bring costs down from what they had originally planned. And so if you extend this kind of example to everything that's happening with generative AI, I think the story we just talked about was super relevant, but the scale can be even higher, you know, it can be tenfold that. We were recently conducting kind of this internal study using GPT-J as a proxy to illustrate the experience of just a company trying to use one of these large language models with an example scenario of creating a chatbot to help job seekers prepare for interviews. So if you imagine kind of a conservative usage scenario where the model generates just 3000 words per user per day, which is, you know, pretty conservative for how people are interacting with these models. It costs 5 cents a session and if you're a company and your app goes viral, so from, you know, beginning of the year there's nobody, at the end of the year there's a million daily active active users in that year alone, going from zero to a million. You'll be spending about $6 million a year, which is pretty unmanageable. That's crazy, right? >> Yeah. >> For a company or a product that's just launching. So I think, you know, for us we see the real way to make these kind of advancements accessible and sustainable, as we said is to bring down cost to serve using these techniques. >> That's a great story and I think that illustrates this idea that deployment cost can vary from situation to situation, from model to model and that the efficiency is so strong with this new wave, it eliminates heavy lifting, creates more efficiency, automates intellect. I mean, this is the trend, this is radical, this is going to increase. So the cost could go from nominal to millions, literally, potentially. So, this is what customers are doing. Yeah, that's a great story. What makes sense on a financial, is there a cost of ownership? Is there a pattern for best practice for training? What do you guys advise cuz this is a lot of time and money involved in all potential, you know, good scenarios of upside. But you can get over your skis as they say, and be successful and be out of business if you don't manage it. I mean, that's what people are talking about, right? >> Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, we see kind of three main vectors to reduce cost. I think one is make your deployment process easier overall, so that your engineering effort to even get your app running goes down. Two, would be get more from the compute you're already paying for, you're already paying, you know, for your instances in the cloud, but can you do more with that? And then three would be shop around for lower cost hardware to match your use case. So on the first one, I think making the deployment easier overall, there's a lot of manual work that goes into benchmarking, optimizing and packaging models for deployment. And because the performance of machine learning models can be really hardware dependent, you have to go through this process for each target you want to consider running your model on. And this is hard, you know, we see that every day. But for teams who want to incorporate some of these large language models into their applications, it might be desirable because licensing a model from a large vendor like OpenAI can leave you, you know, over provision, kind of paying for capabilities you don't need in your application or can lock you into them and you lose flexibility. So we have a customer whose team actually prepares models for deployment in a SaaS application that many of us use every day. And they told us recently that without kind of an automated benchmarking and experimentation platform, they were spending several days each to benchmark a single model on a single hardware type. So this is really, you know, manually intensive and then getting more from the compute you're already paying for. We do see customers who leave money on the table by running models that haven't been optimized specifically for the hardware target they're using, like Luis was mentioning. And for some teams they just don't have the time to go through an optimization process and for others they might lack kind of specialized expertise and this is something we can bring. And then on shopping around for different hardware types, we really see a huge variation in model performance across hardware, not just CPU vs. GPU, which is, you know, what people normally think of. But across CPU vendors themselves, high memory instances and across cloud providers even. So the best strategy here is for teams to really be able to, we say, look before you leap by running real world benchmarking and not just simulations or predictions to find the best software, hardware combination for their workload. >> Yeah. You guys sound like you have a very impressive customer base deploying large language models. Where would you categorize your current customer base? And as you look out, as you guys are growing, you have new customers coming in, take me through the progression. Take me through the profile of some of your customers you have now, size, are they hyperscalers, are they big app folks, are they kicking the tires? And then as people are out there scratching heads, I got to get in this game, what's their psychology like? Are they coming in with specific problems or do they have specific orientation point of view about what they want to do? Can you share some data around what you're seeing? >> Yeah, I think, you know, we have customers that kind of range across the spectrum of sophistication from teams that basically don't have MLOps expertise in their company at all. And so they're really looking for us to kind of give a full service, how should I do everything from, you know, optimization, find the hardware, prepare for deployment. And then we have teams that, you know, maybe already have their serving and hosting infrastructure up and ready and they already have models in production and they're really just looking to, you know, take the extra juice out of the hardware and just do really specific on that optimization piece. I think one place where we're doing a lot more work now is kind of in the developer tooling, you know, model selection space. And that's kind of an area that we're creating more tools for, particularly within the PyTorch ecosystem to bring kind of this power earlier in the development cycle so that as people are grabbing a model off the shelf, they can, you know, see how it might perform and use that to inform their development process. >> Luis, what's the big, I like this idea of picking the models because isn't that like going to the market and picking the best model for your data? It's like, you know, it's like, isn't there a certain approaches? What's your view on this? 'Cause this is where everyone, I think it's going to be a land rush for this and I want to get your thoughts. >> For sure, yeah. So, you know, I guess I'll start with saying the one main takeaway that we got from the GPT-J study is that, you know, having a different understanding of what your model's compute and memory requirements are, very quickly, early on helps with the much smarter AI model deployments, right? So, and in fact, you know, Anna just touched on this, but I want to, you know, make sure that it's clear that OctoML is putting that power into user's hands right now. So in partnership with AWS, we are launching this new PyTorch native profiler that allows you with a single, you know, one line, you know, code decorator allows you to see how your code runs on a variety of different hardware after accelerations. So it gives you very clear, you know, data on how you should think about your model deployments. And this ties back to choices of models. So like, if you have a set of choices that are equally good of models in terms of functionality and you want to understand after acceleration how are you going to deploy, how much they're going to cost or what are the options using a automated process of making a decision is really, really useful. And in fact, so I think these events can get early access to this by signing up for the Octopods, you know, this is exclusive group for insiders here, so you can go to OctoML.ai/pods to sign up. >> So that Octopod, is that a program? What is that, is that access to code? Is that a beta, what is that? Explain, take a minute and explain Octopod. >> I think the Octopod would be a group of people who is interested in experiencing this functionality. So it is the friends and users of OctoML that would be the Octopod. And then yes, after you sign up, we would provide you essentially the tool in code form for you to try out in your own. I mean, part of the benefit of this is that it happens in your own local environment and you're in control of everything kind of within the workflow that developers are already using to create and begin putting these models into their applications. So it would all be within your control. >> Got it. I think the big question I have for you is when do you, when does that one of your customers know they need to call you? What's their environment look like? What are they struggling with? What are the conversations they might be having on their side of the fence? If anyone's watching this, they're like, "Hey, you know what, I've got my team, we have a lot of data. Do we have our own language model or do I use someone else's?" There's a lot of this, I will say discovery going on around what to do, what path to take, what does that customer look like, if someone's listening, when do they know to call you guys, OctoML? >> Well, I mean the most obvious one is that you have a significant spend on AI/ML, come and talk to us, you know, putting AIML into production. So that's the clear one. In fact, just this morning I was talking to someone who is in life sciences space and is having, you know, 15 to $20 million a year cloud related to AI/ML deployment is a clear, it's a pretty clear match right there, right? So that's on the cost side. But I also want to emphasize something that Anna said earlier that, you know, the hardware and software complexity involved in putting model into production is really high. So we've been able to abstract that away, offering a clean automation flow enables one, to experiment early on, you know, how models would run and get them to production. And then two, once they are into production, gives you an automated flow to continuously updating your model and taking advantage of all this acceleration and ability to run the model on the right hardware. So anyways, let's say one then is cost, you know, you have significant cost and then two, you have an automation needs. And Anna please compliment that. >> Yeah, Anna you can please- >> Yeah, I think that's exactly right. Maybe the other time is when you are expecting a big scale up in serving your application, right? You're launching a new feature, you expect to get a lot of usage or, and you want to kind of anticipate maybe your CTO, your CIO, whoever pays your cloud bills is going to come after you, right? And so they want to know, you know, what's the return on putting this model essentially into my application stack? Am I going to, is the usage going to match what I'm paying for it? And then you can understand that. >> So you guys have a lot of the early adopters, they got big data teams, they're pushed in the production, they want to get a little QA, test the waters, understand, use your technology to figure it out. Is there any cases where people have gone into production, they have to pull it out? It's like the old lemon laws with your car, you buy a car and oh my god, it's not the way I wanted it. I mean, I can imagine the early people through the wall, so to speak, in the wave here are going to be bloody in the sense that they've gone in and tried stuff and get stuck with huge bills. Are you seeing that? Are people pulling stuff out of production and redeploying? Or I can imagine that if I had a bad deployment, I'd want to refactor that or actually replatform that. Do you see that too? >> Definitely after a sticker shock, yes, your customers will come and make sure that, you know, the sticker shock won't happen again. >> Yeah. >> But then there's another more thorough aspect here that I think we likely touched on, be worth elaborating a bit more is just how are you going to scale in a way that's feasible depending on the allocation that you get, right? So as we mentioned several times here, you know, model deployment is so hardware dependent and so complex that you tend to get a model for a hardware choice and then you want to scale that specific type of instance. But what if, when you want to scale because suddenly luckily got popular and, you know, you want to scale it up and then you don't have that instance anymore. So how do you live with whatever you have at that moment is something that we see customers needing as well. You know, so in fact, ideally what we want is customers to not think about what kind of specific instances they want. What they want is to know what their models need. Say, they know the SLA and then find a set of hybrid targets and instances that hit the SLA whenever they're also scaling, they're going to scale with more freedom, right? Instead of having to wait for AWS to give them more specific allocation for a specific instance. What if you could live with other types of hardware and scale up in a more free way, right? So that's another thing that we see customers, you know, like they need more freedom to be able to scale with whatever is available. >> Anna, you touched on this with the business model impact to that 6 million cost, if that goes out of control, there's a business model aspect and there's a technical operation aspect to the cost side too. You want to be mindful of riding the wave in a good way, but not getting over your skis. So that brings up the point around, you know, confidence, right? And teamwork. Because if you're in production, there's probably a team behind it. Talk about the team aspect of your customers. I mean, they're dedicated, they go put stuff into production, they're developers, there're data. What's in it for them? Are they getting better, are they in the beach, you know, reading the book. Are they, you know, are there easy street for them? What's the customer benefit to the teams? >> Yeah, absolutely. With just a few clicks of a button, you're in production, right? That's the dream. So yeah, I mean I think that, you know, we illustrated it before a little bit. I think the automated kind of benchmarking and optimization process, like when you think about the effort it takes to get that data by hand, which is what people are doing today, they just don't do it. So they're making decisions without the best information because it's, you know, there just isn't the bandwidth to get the information that they need to make the best decision and then know exactly how to deploy it. So I think it's actually bringing kind of a new insight and capability to these teams that they didn't have before. And then maybe another aspect on the team side is that it's making the hand-off of the models from the data science teams to the model deployment teams more seamless. So we have, you know, we have seen in the past that this kind of transition point is the place where there are a lot of hiccups, right? The data science team will give a model to the production team and it'll be too slow for the application or it'll be too expensive to run and it has to go back and be changed and kind of this loop. And so, you know, with the PyTorch profiler that Luis was talking about, and then also, you know, the other ways we do optimization that kind of prevents that hand-off problem from happening. >> Luis and Anna, you guys have a great company. Final couple minutes left. Talk about the company, the people there, what's the culture like, you know, if Intel has Moore's law, which is, you know, doubling the performance in few years, what's the culture like there? Is it, you know, more throughput, better pricing? Explain what's going on with the company and put a plug in. Luis, we'll start with you. >> Yeah, absolutely. I'm extremely proud of the team that we built here. You know, we have a people first culture, you know, very, very collaborative and folks, we all have a shared mission here of making AI more accessible and sustainable. We have a very diverse team in terms of backgrounds and life stories, you know, to do what we do here, we need a team that has expertise in software engineering, in machine learning, in computer architecture. Even though we don't build chips, we need to understand how they work, right? So, and then, you know, the fact that we have this, this very really, really varied set of backgrounds makes the environment, you know, it's say very exciting to learn more about, you know, assistance end-to-end. But also makes it for a very interesting, you know, work environment, right? So people have different backgrounds, different stories. Some of them went to grad school, others, you know, were in intelligence agencies and now are working here, you know. So we have a really interesting set of people and, you know, life is too short not to work with interesting humans. You know, that's something that I like to think about, you know. >> I'm sure your off-site meetings are a lot of fun, people talking about computer architectures, silicon advances, the next GPU, the big data models coming in. Anna, what's your take? What's the culture like? What's the company vibe and what are you guys looking to do? What's the customer success pattern? What's up? >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I, you know, second all of the great things that Luis just said about the team. I think one that I, an additional one that I'd really like to underscore is kind of this customer obsession, to use a term you all know well. And focus on the end users and really making the experiences that we're bringing to our user who are developers really, you know, useful and valuable for them. And so I think, you know, all of these tools that we're trying to put in the hands of users, the industry and the market is changing so rapidly that our products across the board, you know, all of the companies that, you know, are part of the showcase today, we're all evolving them so quickly and we can only do that kind of really hand in glove with our users. So that would be another thing I'd emphasize. >> I think the change dynamic, the power dynamics of this industry is just the beginning. I'm very bullish that this is going to be probably one of the biggest inflection points in history of the computer industry because of all the dynamics of the confluence of all the forces, which you mentioned some of them, I mean PC, you know, interoperability within internetworking and you got, you know, the web and then mobile. Now we have this, I mean, I wouldn't even put social media even in the close to this. Like, this is like, changes user experience, changes infrastructure. There's going to be massive accelerations in performance on the hardware side from AWS's of the world and cloud and you got the edge and more data. This is really what big data was going to look like. This is the beginning. Final question, what do you guys see going forward in the future? >> Well, it's undeniable that machine learning and AI models are becoming an integral part of an interesting application today, right? So, and the clear trends here are, you know, more and more competitional needs for these models because they're only getting more and more powerful. And then two, you know, seeing the complexity of the infrastructure where they run, you know, just considering the cloud, there's like a wide variety of choices there, right? So being able to live with that and making the most out of it in a way that does not require, you know, an impossible to find team is something that's pretty clear. So the need for automation, abstracting with the complexity is definitely here. And we are seeing this, you know, trends are that you also see models starting to move to the edge as well. So it's clear that we're seeing, we are going to live in a world where there's no large models living in the cloud. And then, you know, edge models that talk to these models in the cloud to form, you know, an end-to-end truly intelligent application. >> Anna? >> Yeah, I think, you know, our, Luis said it at the beginning. Our vision is to make AI sustainable and accessible. And I think as this technology just expands in every company and every team, that's going to happen kind of on its own. And we're here to help support that. And I think you can't do that without tools like those like OctoML. >> I think it's going to be an error of massive invention, creativity, a lot of the format heavy lifting is going to allow the talented people to automate their intellect. I mean, this is really kind of what we see going on. And Luis, thank you so much. Anna, thanks for coming on this segment. Thanks for coming on theCUBE and being part of the AWS Startup Showcase. I'm John Furrier, your host. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: The cube's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies, creating technologies that drive human progress. (upbeat music) (background indistinct chatter) >> Good morning from Barcelona, everyone. It's theCUBE live at MWC23, day three of our four days of coverage. Lisa Martin here with Dave Nicholson. Dave, we have had some great conversations. Can't believe it's day three already. Anything sticking out at you from a thematic perspective that really caught your eye the last couple days? >> I guess I go back to kind of our experience with sort of the generalized world of information technology and a lot of the parallels between what's been happening in other parts of the economy and what's happening in the telecom space now. So it helps me understand some of the complexity when I tie it back to things that I'm aware of >> A lot of complexity, but a big ecosystem that's growing. We're going to be talking more about the ecosystem next and what they're doing to really enable customers CSPs to deliver services. We've got two guests here, Tammy Wyman joins us the Global head of Partners Telco at AWS. And Kurt Schaubach, CTO of Federated Wireless. Welcome to theCUBE Guys. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Great to have you here, day three. Lots of announcements, lots of news at MWC. But Tammy, there's been a lot of announcements from partners with AWS this week. Talk to us a little bit more about first of all, the partner program and then let's unpack some of those announcements. One of them is with Federated Wireless. >> Sure. Yeah. So AWS created the partner program 10 years ago when they really started to understand the value of bringing together the ecosystem. So, I think we're starting to see how this is becoming a reality. So now we 100,000 partners later, 150 countries, 70% of those partners are outside of the US. So truly the global nature and partners being ISVs, GSIs. And then in the telco space, we're actually looking at how we help CSBs become partners of AWS and bring new revenue streams. So that's how we start having the discussions around Federated Wireless. >> Talk a little bit about Federated Wireless, Kurt, give the audience an overview of what you guys are doing and then maybe give us some commentary on the partnership. >> Sure. So we're a shared spectrum and private wireless company, and we actually started working with AWS about five years ago to take this model that we developed to perfect the use of shared spectrum to enable enterprise communications and bring the power of 5G to the enterprise to bring it to all of the AWS customers and partners. So through that now through we're one of the partner network participants. We're working very closely with the AWS team on bringing this, really unique form of connectivity to all sorts of different enterprise use cases from solving manufacturing and warehouse logistics issues to providing connectivity to mines, enhancing the experience for students on a university campus. So it's a really exciting partnership. Everything that we deliver on an end-to-end basis from design deployment to bringing the infrastructure on-prem, all runs on AWS. (background indistinct chatter) >> So a lot of the conversations that we've had sort of start with this concept of the radio access network and frankly in at least the public domain cellular sites. And so all of a sudden it's sort of grounded in this physical reality of these towers with these boxes of equipment on the tower, at the base of the tower, connected to other things. How does AWS and Federated Wireless, where do you fit in that model in terms of equipment at the base of a tower versus what having that be off-premises in some way or another. Kind of give us more of a flavor for the kind of physical reality of what you guys are doing? >> Yeah, I'll start. >> Yeah, Tammy. >> I'll hand it over to the real expert but from an AWS perspective, what we're finding is really I don't know if it's even a convergence or kind of a delaying of the network. So customers are, they don't care if they're on Wi-Fi if they're on public spectrum, if they're on private spectrum, what they want are networks that are able to talk to each other and to provide the right connectivity at the right time and with the right pricing model. So by moving to the cloud that allows us that flexibility to be able to offer the quality of service and to be able to bring in a larger ecosystem of partners as with the networks are almost disaggregated. >> So does the AWS strategy focus solely on things that are happening in, say, AWS locations or AWS data centers? Or is AWS also getting into the arena of what I would refer to as an Outpost in an AWS parlance where physical equipment that's running a stack might actually also be located physically where the communications towers are? What does that mix look like in terms of your strategy? >> Yeah, certainly as customers are looking at hybrid cloud environments, we started looking at how we can use Outpost as part of the network. So, we've got some great use cases where we're taking Outpost into the edge of operators networks, and really starting to have radio in the cloud. We've launched with Dish earlier, and now we're starting to see some other announcements that we've made with Nokia about having ran in the cloud as well. So using Outpost, that's one of our key strategies. It creates, again, a lot of flexibility for the hybrid cloud environment and brings a lot of that compute power to the edge of the network. >> Let's talk about some of the announcements. Tammy was reading that AWS is expanding, its telecom and 5g, private 5G network support. You've also unveiled the AWS Telco Network Builder service. Talk about that, who that's targeted for. What does an operator do with AWS on this? Or maybe you guys can talk about that together. >> Sure. Would you like to start? I can talk. All right. So from the network builder, it's aimed at the, I would say the persona that it's aimed at would be the network engineer within the CSPs. And there was a bit of a difficulty when you want to design a telco network on AWS versus the way that the network engineers would traditionally design. So I'm going to call them protocols, but you know I can imagine saying, "I really want to build this on the cloud, but they're making me move away from my typical way that I design a network and move it into a cloud world." So what we did was really kind of create this template saying, "You can build the network as you always do and we are going to put the magic behind it to translate it into a cloud world." So just really facilitating and taking some of the friction out of the building of the network. >> What was the catalyst for that? I think Dish and Swisscom you've been working with but talk about the catalyst for doing that and how it's facilitating change because part of that's change management with how network engineers actually function and how they work. >> Absolutely, yeah. And we're looking, we listen to customers and we're trying to understand what are those friction points? What would make it easier? And that was one that we heard consistently. So we wanted to apply a bit of our experience and the way that we're able to use data translate that using code so that you're building a network in your traditional way, and then it kind of spits out what's the formula to build the network in the cloud. >> Got it. Kurt, talk about, yeah, I saw that there was just an announcement that Federated Wireless made JBG Smith. Talk to us more about that. What will federated help them to create and how are you all working together? >> Sure. So JBG Smith is the exclusive redeveloper of an area just on the other side of the Potomac from Washington DC called National Landing. And it's about half the size of Manhattan. So it's an enormous area that's getting redeveloped. It's the home of Amazon's new HQ two location. And JBG Smith is investing in addition to the commercial real estate, digital place making a place where people live, work, play, and connect. And part of that is bringing an enhanced level of connectivity to people's homes, their residents, the enterprise, and private wireless is a key component of that. So when we talk about private wireless, what we're doing with AWS is giving an enterprise the freedom to operate a network independent of a mobile network operator. So that means everything from the ran to the core to the applications that run on this network are sort of within the domain of the enterprise merging 5G and edge compute and driving new business outcomes. That's really the most important thing. We can talk a lot about 5G here at MWC about what the enterprise really cares about are new business outcomes how do they become more efficient? And that's really what private wireless helps enable. >> So help us connect the dots. When we talk about private wireless we've definitely been in learning mode here. Well, I'll speak for myself going around and looking at some of the exhibits and seeing how things work. And I know that I wasn't necessarily a 100% clear on this connection between a 5G private wireless network today and where Wi-Fi still comes into play. So if I am a new resident in this area, happily living near the amazing new presence of AWS on the East coast, and I want to use my mobile device how am I connected into that private wireless network? What does that look like as a practical matter? >> So that example that you've just referred to is really something that we enable through neutral host. So in fact, what we're able to do through this private network is also create carrier connectivity. Basically create a pipe almost for the carriers to be able to reach a consumer device like that. A lot of private wireless is also driving business outcomes with enterprises. So work that we're doing, like for example, with the Cal Poly out in California, for example is to enable a new 5G innovation platform. So this is driving all sorts of new 5G research and innovation with the university, new applications around IoT. And they need the ability to do that indoors, outdoors in a way that's sort of free from the domain of connectivity to a a mobile network operator and having the freedom and flexibility to do that, merging that with edge compute. Those are some really important components. We're also doing a lot of work in things like warehouses. Think of a warehouse as being this very complex RF environment. You want to bring robotics you want to bring better inventory management and Wi-Fi just isn't an effective means of providing really reliable indoor coverage. You need more secure networks you need lower latency and the ability to move more data around again, merging new applications with edge compute and that's where private wireless really shines. >> So this is where we do the shout out to my daughter Rachel Nicholson, who is currently a junior at Cal Poly San Luis Obispo. Rachel, get plenty of sleep and get your homework done. >> Lisa: She better be studying. >> I held up my mobile device and I should have said full disclosure, we have spotty cellular service where I live. So I think of this as a Wi-Fi connected device, in fact. So maybe I confuse the issue at least. >> Tammy, talk to us a little bit about the architecture from an AWS perspective that is enabling JBG Smith, Cal Poly is this, we're talking an edge architecture, but give us a little bit more of an understanding of what that actually technically looks like. >> Alright, I would love to pass this one over to Kurt. >> Okay. >> So I'm sorry, just in terms of? >> Wanting to understand the AWS architecture this is an edge based architecture hosted on what? On AWS snow, application storage. Give us a picture of what that looks like. >> Right. So I mean, the beauty of this is the simplicity in it. So we're able to bring an AWS snowball, snow cone, edge appliance that runs a pack of core. We're able to run workloads on that locally so some applications, but we also obviously have the ability to bring that out to the public cloud. So depending on what the user application is, we look at anything from the AWS snow family to Outpost and sort of develop templates or solutions depending on what the customer workloads demand. But the innovation that's happened, especially around the pack core and how we can make that so compact and able to run on such a capable appliance is really powerful. >> Yeah, and I will add that I think the diversification of the different connectivity modules that we have a lot of them have been developed because of the needs from the telco industry. So the adaptation of Outpost to run into the edge, the snow family. So the telco industry is really leading a lot of the developments that AWS takes to market in the end because of the nature of having to have networks that are able to disconnect, ruggedize environments, the latency, the numerous use cases that our telco customers are facing to take to their end customers. So like it really allows us to adapt and bring the right network to the right place and the right environment. And even for the same customer they may have different satellite offices or remote sites that need different connectivity needs. >> Right. So it sounds like that collaboration between AWS and telco is quite strong and symbiotic, it sounds like. >> Tammy: Absolutely. >> So we talked about a number of the announcements in our final minutes. I want to talk about integrated private wireless that was just announced last week. What is that? Who are the users going to be? And I understand T-Mobile is involved there. >> Yes. Yeah. So this is a program that we launched based on what we're seeing is kind of a convergence of the ecosystem of private wireless. So we wanted to be able to create a program which is offering spectrum that is regulated as well. And we wanted to offer that on in a more of a multi country environment. So we launched with T-Mobile, Telephonica, KDDI and a number of other succeed, as a start to start being able to bring the regulated spectrum into the picture and as well other ISVs who are going to be bringing unique use cases so that when you look at, well we've got the connectivity into this environment, the mine or the port, what are those use cases? You know, so ISVs who are providing maybe asset tracking or some of the health and safety and we bring them in as part of the program. And I think an important piece is the actual discoverability of this, because when you think about that if you're a buyer on the other side, like where do I start? So we created a portal with this group of ISVs and partners so that one could come together and kind of build what are my needs? And then they start picking through and then the ecosystem would be recommended to them. So it's a really a way to discover and to also procure a private wireless network much more easily than could be done in the past. >> That's a great service >> And we're learning a lot from the market. And what we're doing together in our partnership is through a lot of these sort of ruggedized remote location deployments that we're doing, mines, clearing underbrush and forest forest areas to prevent forest fires. There's a tremendous number of applications for private wireless where sort of the conventional carrier networks just aren't prioritized to serve. And you need a different level of connectivity. Privacy is big concern as well. Data security. Keeping data on premise, which is a another big application that we were able to drive through these edge compute platforms. >> Awesome. Guys, thank you so much for joining us on the program talking about what AWS Federated are doing together and how you're really helping to evolve the telco landscape and make life ultimately easier for all the Nicholsons to connect over Wi-Fi, our private 5g. >> Keep us in touch. And from two Californians you had us when you said clear the brush, prevent fires. >> You did. Thanks guys, it was a pleasure having you on the program. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Our pleasure. For our guest and for Dave Nicholson, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE Live from our third day of coverage of MWC23. Stick around Dave and I will be right back with our next guest. (upbeat music)

>> Hello and welcome to theCUBE's coverage of International Women's Day. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. Got a variety of interviews across the gamut from topics, women in tech, mentoring, pipelining, developers, open source, executives. Stanford's having International Women's Day celebration with the women in data science, which we're streaming that live as well. Variety of programs. In this segment, Meagen Eisenberg, friend of theCUBE, she's the CMO of Laceworks, is an amazing executive, got a great journey story as a CMO but she's also actively advising startups, companies and really pays it forward. I want to say Meagen, thank you for coming on the program and thanks for sharing. >> Yeah, thank you for having me. I'm happy to be here. >> Well, we're going to get into some of the journey celebrations that you've gone through and best practice what you've learned is pay that forward. But I got to say, one of the things that really impresses me about you as an executive is you get stuff done. You're a great CMO but also you're advised a lot of companies, you have a lot of irons in the fires and you're advising companies and sometimes they're really small startups to bigger companies, and you're paying it forward, which I love. That's kind of the spirit of this day. >> Yeah, I mean, I agree with you. When I think about my career, a lot of it was looking to mentors women out in the field. This morning I was at a breakfast by Eileen and we had the CEO of General Motors on, and she was talking about her journey nine years as a CEO. And you know, and she's paying it forward with us. But I think about, you know, when you're advising startups, you know, I've gathered knowledge and pattern recognition and to be able to share that is, you know, I enjoy it. >> Yeah. And the startups are also fun too, but it's not always easy and it can get kind of messy as you know. Some startups don't make it some succeed and it's always like the origination story is kind of rewritten and then that's that messy middle. And then it's like that arrows that don't look like a straight line but everyone thinks it's great and you know, it's not for the faint of heart. And Teresa Carlson, who I've interviewed many times, former Amazon, now she's the president of Flexport, she always says, sometimes startups on certain industries aren't for the faint of heart so you got to have a little bit of metal, right? You got to be tough. And some cases that you don't need that, but startups, it's not always easy. What have you learned? >> Yeah, I mean, certainly in the startup world, grit, creativity. You know, when I was at TripActions travel company, pandemic hits, nobody's traveling. You cut budget, you cut heads, but you focus on the core, right? You focus on what you need to survive. And creativity, I think, wins. And, you know, as a CMO when you're marketing, how do you get through that noise? Even the security space, Lacework, it's a fragmented market. You've got to be differentiated and position yourself and you know, be talking to the right target audience and customers. >> Talk about your journey over the years. What have you learned? What's some observations? Can you share any stories and best practices that someone watching could learn from? I know there's a lot of people coming into the tech space with the generative AI things going on in Cloud computing, scaling to the edge, there's a lot more aperture for technical jobs as well as just new roles and new roles that haven't, you really don't go to college for anymore. You got cybersecurity you're in. What are some of the things that you've done over your career if you can share and some best practices? >> Yeah, I think number one, continual learning. When I look through my career, I was constantly reading, networking. Part of the journey is who you're meeting along the way. As you become more senior, your ability to hire and bring in talent matters a lot. I'm always trying to meet with new people. Yeah, if I look at my Amazon feed of books I've bought, right, it kind of chronicle of my history of things I was learning about. Right now I'm reading a lot about cybersecurity, how the, you know, how how they tell me the world ends is the one I'm reading most recently. But you've got to come up to speed and then know the product, get in there and talk to customers. Certainly on the marketing front, anytime I can talk with the customer and find out how they're using us, why they love us, that, you know, helps me better position and differentiate our company. >> By the way, that book is amazing. I saw Nicole speak on Tuesday night with John Markoff and Palo Alto here. What a great story she told there. I recommend that book to everyone. It goes in and she did eight years of research into that book around zero day marketplaces to all the actors involved in security. And it was very interesting. >> Yeah, I mean, it definitely wakes you up, makes you think about what's going on in the world. Very relevant. >> It's like, yeah, it was happening all the time, wasn't it. All the hacking. But this brings me, this brings up an interesting point though, because you're in a cybersecurity area, which by the way, it's changing very fast. It's becoming a bigger industry. It's not just male dominated, although it is now, it's still male dominated, but it's becoming much more and then just tech. >> Yeah, I mean it's a constantly evolving threat landscape and we're learning, and I think more than ever you need to be able to use the data that companies have and, you know, learn from it. That's one of the ways we position ourselves. We're not just about writing rules that won't help you with those zero day attacks. You've got to be able to understand your particular environment and at any moment if it changes. And that's how we help you detect a threat. >> How is, how are things going with you? Is there any new things you guys got going on? Initiatives or programs for women in tech and increasing the range of diversity inclusion in the industry? Because again, this industry's getting much wider too. It's not just specialized, it's also growing. >> Yes, actually I'm excited. We're launching secured by women, securedbywomen.com and it's very much focused on women in the industry, which some studies are showing it's about 25% of security professionals are women. And we're going to be taking nominations and sponsoring women to go to upcoming security events. And so excited to launch that this month and really celebrate women in security and help them, you know, part of that continual learning that I talked about, making sure they're there learning, having the conversations at the conferences, being able to network. >> I have to ask you, what inspired you to pursue the career in tech? What was the motivation? >> You know, if I think way back, originally I wanted to be on the art side and my dad said, "You can do anything as long as it's in the sciences." And so in undergrad I did computer science and MIS. Graduated with MIS and computer science minor. And when I came out I was a IT engineer at Cisco and you know, that kind of started my journey and decided to go back and get my MBA. And during that process I fell in love with marketing and I thought, okay, I understand the buyer, I can come out and market technology to the IT world and developers. And then from there went to several tech companies. >> I mean my father was an engineer. He had the same kind of thing. You got to be an engineer, it's a steady, stable job. But that time, computer science, I mean we've seen the evolution of computer science now it's the most popular degree at Berkeley we've heard and around the world and the education formats are changing. You're seeing a lot of people's self-training on YouTube. The field has really changed. What are some of the challenges you see for folks trying to get into the industry and how would you advise today if you were talking to your young self, what would you, what would be the narrative? >> Yeah, I mean my drawback then was HTML pages were coming out and I thought it would be fun to design, you know, webpages. So you find something you're passionate about in the space today, whether it's gaming or it's cybersecurity. Go and be excited about it and apply and don't give up, right? Do whatever you can to read and learn. And you're right, there are a ton of online self-help. I always try to hire women and people who are continual learners and are teaching themselves something. And I try to find that in an interview to know that they, because when you come to a business, you're there to solve problems and challenges. And the folks that can do that and be innovative and learn, those are the ones I want on my team. >> It's interesting, you know, technology is now impacting society and we need everyone involved to participate and give requirements. And that kind of leads my next question for you is, like, in your opinion, or let me just step back, let me rephrase. What are some of the things that you see technology being used for, for society right now that will impact people's lives? Because this is not a gender thing. We need everybody involved 'cause society is now digital. Technology's pervasive. The AI trends now we're seeing is clearly unmasking to the mainstream that there's some cool stuff happening. >> Yeah, I mean, I think ChatGPT, think about that. All the different ways we're using it we're writing content and marketing with it. We're, you know, I just read an article yesterday, folks are using it to write children's stories and then selling those stories on Amazon, right? And the amount that they can produce with it. But if you think about it, there's unlimited uses with that technology and you've got all the major players getting involved on it. That one major launch and piece of technology is going to transform us in the next six months to a year. And it's the ability to process so much data and then turn that into just assets that we use and the creativity that's building on top of it. Even TripActions has incorporated ChatGPT into your ability to figure out where you want when you're traveling, what's happening in that city. So it's just, you're going to see that incorporated everywhere. >> I mean we've done an interview before TripAction, your other company you were at. Interesting point you don't have to type in a box to say, I'm traveling, I want a hotel. You can just say, I'm going to Barcelona for Mobile World Congress, I want to have a good time. I want some tapas and a nice dinner out. >> Yes. Yeah. That easy. We're making it easy. >> It's efficiency. >> And actually I was going to say for women specifically, I think the reason why we can do so much today is all the technology and apps that we have. I think about DoorDash, I think about Waze you know, when I was younger you had to print out instructions. Now I get in the car real quick, I need to go to soccer practice, I enter it, I need to pick them up at someone's house. I enter it. It's everything's real time. And so it takes away all the things that I don't add value to and allows me to focus on what I want in business. And so there's a bunch of, you know, apps out there that have allowed me to be so much more efficient and productive that my mother didn't have for sure when I was growing up. >> That is an amazing, I think that actually illustrates, in my opinion, the best example of ChatGPT because the maps and GPS integration were two techs, technologies merged together that replace driving and looking at the map. You know, like how do you do that? Like now it's automatically. This is what's going to happen to creative, to writing, to ideation. I even heard Nicole from her book read said that they're using ChatGPT to write zero day exploits. So you seeing it... >> That's scary stuff. You're right. >> You're seeing it everywhere. Super exciting. Well, I got to ask you before you get into some of the Lacework things that you're involved with, cause I think you're doing great work over there is, what was the most exciting projects you've worked on in your career? You came in Cisco, very technical company, so got the technical chops, CSMIS which stands for Management of Information Science for all the young people out there, that was the state of the art back then. What are some of the exciting things you've done? >> Yeah, I mean, I think about, I think about MongoDB and learning to market to developers. Taking the company public in 2017. Launching Atlas database as a service. Now there's so much more of that, you know, the PLG motion, going to TripActions, you know, surviving a pandemic, still being able to come out of that and all the learnings that went with it. You know, they recently, I guess rebranded, so they're Navan now. And then now back in the security space, you know, 14 years ago I was at ArcSite and we were bought by HP. And so getting back into the security world is exciting and it's transformed a ton as you know, it's way more complicated than it was. And so just understanding the pain of our customers and how we protect them as is fun. And I like, you know, being there from a marketing standpoint. >> Well we really appreciate you coming on and sharing that. I got to ask you, for folks watching they might be interested in some advice that you might have for them and their career in tech. I know a lot of young people love the tech. It's becoming pervasive in our lives, as we mentioned. What advice would you give for folks watching that want to start a career in tech? >> Yeah, so work hard, right? Study, network, your first job, be the best at it because every job after that you get pulled into a network. And every time I move, I'm hiring people from the last job, two jobs before, three jobs before. And I'm looking for people that are working hard, care, you know, are continual learners and you know, add value. What can you do to solve problems at your work and add value? >> What's your secret networking hack or growth hack or tip that you can share? Because you're a great networker by the way. You're amazing and you do add a lot of value. I've seen you in action. >> Well, I try never to eat alone. I've got breakfast, I've got lunch, I've got coffee breaks and dinner. And so when I'm at work, I try and always sit and eat with a team member, new group. If I'm out on the road, I'm, you know, meeting people for lunch, going for dinner, just, you know, don't sit at your desk by yourself and don't sit in the hotel room. Get out and meet with people. >> What do you think about now that we're out of the pandemic or somewhat out of the pandemic so to speak, events are back. >> Yes. >> RSA is coming up. It's a big event. The bigger events are getting bigger and then the other events are kind of smaller being distributed. What's your vision of how events are evolving? >> Yeah, I mean, you've got to be in person. Those are the relationships. Right now more than ever people care about renewals and you are building that rapport. And if you're not meeting with your customers, your competitors are. So what I would say is get out there Lacework, we're going to be at RSA, we're going to be at re:Inforce, we're going to be at all of these events, building relationships, you know, coffee, lunch, and yeah, I think the future of events are here to stay and those that don't embrace in person are going to give up business. They're going to lose market share to us. >> And networking is obviously very key on events as well. >> Yes. >> A good opportunity as always get out to the events. What's the event networking trick or advice do you give folks that are going to get out to the networking world? >> Yeah, schedule ahead of time. Don't go to an event and expect people just to come by for great swag. You should be partnering with your sales team and scheduling ahead of time, getting on people's calendars. Don't go there without having 100 or 200 meetings already booked. >> Got it. All right. Let's talk about you, your career. You're currently at Lacework. It's a very hot company in a hot field, security, very male dominated, you're a leader there. What's it like? What's the strategies? How does a woman get in there and be successful? What are some tricks, observations, any data you can share? What's the best practice? What's the secret sauce from Meagen Eisenberg? >> Yes. Yeah, for Meagen Eisenberg. For Lacework, you know, we're focused on our customers. There's nothing better than getting, being close to them, solving their pain, showcasing them. So if you want to go into security, focus on their, the issues and their problems and make sure they're aware of what you're delivering. I mean, we're focused on cloud security and we go from build time to run time. And that's the draw for me here is we had a lot of, you know, happy, excited customers by what we were doing. And what we're doing is very different from legacy security providers. And it is tapping into the trend of really understanding how much data you have and what's happening in the data to detect the anomalies and the threats that are there. >> You know, one of the conversations that I was just having with a senior leader, she was amazing and I asked her what she thought of the current landscape, the job market, the how to get promoted through the careers, all those things. And the response was interesting. I want to get your reaction. She said interdisciplinary skills are critical. And now more than ever, the having that, having a set of skills, technical and social and emotional are super valuable. Do you agree? What's your reaction to that and what would, how would you reframe that? >> Yeah, I mean, I completely agree. You can't be a leader without balance. You've got to know your craft because you're developing and training your team, but you also need to know the, you know, how to build relationships. You're not going to be successful as a C-level exec if you're not partnering across the functions. As a CMO I need to partner with product, I need to partner with the head of sales, I need to partner with finance. So those relationships matter a ton. I also need to attract the right talent. I want to have solid people on the team. And what I will say in the security, cybersecurity space, there's a talent shortage and you cannot hire enough people to protect your company in that space. And that's kind of our part of it is we reduce the number of alerts that you're getting. So you don't need hundreds of people to detect an issue. You're using technology to show, you know, to highlight the issue and then your team can focus on those alerts that matter. >> Yeah, there's a lot of emerging markets where leveling up and you don't need pedigree. You can just level up skill-wise pretty quickly. Which brings me to the next question for you is how do you keep up with all the tech day-to-day and how should someone watching stay on top of it? Because I mean, you got to be on top of this stuff and you got to ride the wave. It's pretty turbulent, but it's still growing and changing. >> Yeah, it's true. I mean, there's a lot of reading. I'm watching the news. Anytime something comes out, you know, ChatGPT I'm playing with it. I've got a great network and sharing. I'm on, you know, LinkedIn reading articles all the time. I have a team, right? Every time I hire someone, they bring new information and knowledge in and I'm you know, Cal Poly had this learn by doing that was the philosophy at San Luis Obispo. So do it. Try it, don't be afraid of it. I think that's the advice. >> Well, I love some of the points you mentioned community and network. You mentioned networking. That brings up the community question, how could people get involved? What communities are out there? How should they approach communities? 'Cause communities are also networks, but also they're welcoming people in that form networks. So it's a network of networks. So what's your take on how to engage and work with communities? How do you find your tribe? If someone's getting into the business, they want support, they might want technology learnings, what's your approach? >> Yeah, so a few, a few different places. One, I'm part of the operator collective, which is a strong female investment group that's open and works a lot with operators and they're in on the newest technologies 'cause they're investing in it. Chief I think is a great organization as well. You've got a lot of, if you're in marketing, there's a ton of CMO networking events that you can go to. I would say any field, even for us at Lacework, we've got some strong CISO networks and we do dinners around you know, we have one coming up in the Bay area, in Boston, New York, and you can come and meet other CISOs and security leaders. So when I get an invite and you know we all do, I will go to it. I'll carve out the time and meet with others. So I think, you know, part of the community is get out there and, you know, join some of these different groups. >> Meagen, thank you so much for spending the time. Final question for you. How do you see the future of tech evolving and how do you see your role in it? >> Yeah, I mean, marketing's changing wildly. There's so many different channels. You think about all the social media channels that have changed over the last five years. So when I think about the future of tech, I'm looking at apps on my phone. I have three daughters, 13, 11, and 8. I'm telling you, they come to me with new apps and new technology all the time, and I'm paying attention what they're, you know, what they're participating in and what they want to be a part of. And certainly it's going to be a lot more around the data and AI. I think we're only at the beginning of that. So we will continue to, you know, learn from it and wield it and deal with the mass amount of data that's out there. >> Well, you saw TikTok just got banned by the European Commission today around their staff. Interesting times. >> It is. >> Meagen, thank you so much as always. You're a great tech athlete. Been following your career for a while, a long time. You're an amazing leader. Thank you for sharing your story here on theCUBE, celebration of International Women's Day. Every day is IWD and thanks for coming on. >> Thank you for having me. >> Okay. I'm John Furrier here in theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto. Thank you for watching, more to come stay with us. (bright music)

(gentle music) >> Hello, everyone. Welcome to this Cube Conversation. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE here, in our Palo Alto Studios. We're featuring OctoML. I'm with the CEO, Luis Ceze. Chief Executive Officer, Co-founder of OctoML. I'm John Furrier of theCUBE. Thanks for joining us today. Luis, great to see you. Last time we spoke was at "re:MARS" Amazon's event. Kind of a joint event between (indistinct) and Amazon, kind of put a lot together. Great to see you. >> Great to see you again, John. I really have good memories of that interview. You know, that was definitely a great time. Great to chat with you again. >> The world of ML and AI, machine learning and AI is really hot. Everyone's talking about it. It's really great to see that advance. So I'm looking forward to this conversation but before we get started, introduce who you are in OctoML. >> Sure. I'm Luis Ceze, Co-founder and CEO at OctoML. I'm also professor of Computer Science at University of Washington. You know, OctoML grew out of our efforts on the Apache CVM project, which is a compiler in runtime system that enables folks to run machine learning models in a broad set of harder in the Edge and in the Cloud very efficiently. You know, we grew that project and grew that community, definitely saw there was something to pain point there. And then we built OctoML, OctoML is about three and a half years old now. And the mission, the company is to enable customers to deploy models very efficiently in the Cloud. And make them, you know, run. Do it quickly, run fast, and run at a low cost, which is something that's especially timely right now. >> I like to point out also for the folks 'casue they should know that you're also a professor in the Computer Science department at University of Washington. A great program there. This is a really an inflection point with AI machine learning. The computer science industry has been waiting for decades to advance AI with all this new cloud computing, all the hardware and silicon advancements, GPUs. This is the perfect storm. And you know, this the computer science now we we're seeing an acceleration. Can you share your view, and you're obviously a professor in that department but also, an entrepreneur. This is a great time for computer science. Explain why. >> Absolutely, yeah, no. Just like the confluence of you know, advances in what, you know, computers can do as devices to computer information. Plus, you know, advances in AI that enable applications that you know, we thought it was highly futuristic and now it's just right there today. You know, AI that can generate photo realistic images from descriptions, you know, can write text that's pretty good. Can help augment, you know, human creativity in a really meaningful way. So you see the confluence of capabilities and the creativity of humankind into new applications is just extremely exciting, both from a researcher point of view as well as an entrepreneur point of view, right. >> What should people know about these large language models we're seeing with ChatGPT and how Google has got a lot of work going on that air. There's been a lot of work recently. What's different now about these models, and why are they so popular and effective now? What's the difference between now, and say five years ago, that makes it more- >> Oh, yeah. It's a huge inflection on their capabilities, I always say like emergent behavior, right? So as these models got more complex and our ability to train and deploy them, you know, got to this point... You know, they really crossed a threshold into doing things that are truly surprising, right? In terms of generating, you know, exhalation for things generating tax, summarizing tax, expending tax. And you know, exhibiting what to some may look like reasoning. They're not quite reasoning fundamentally. They're generating tax that looks like they're reasoning, but they do it so well, that it feels like was done by a human, right. So I would say that the biggest changes that, you know, now, they can actually do things that are extremely useful for business in people's lives today. And that wasn't the case five years ago. So that's in the model capabilities and that is being paired with huge advances in computing that enabled this to be... Enables this to be, you know, actually see line of sites to be deployed at scale, right. And that's where we come in, by the way, but yeah. >> Yeah, I want to get into that. And also, you know, the fusion of data integrating data sets at scales. Another one we're seeing a lot of happening now. It's not just some, you know, siloed, pre-built data modeling. It's a lot of agility and a lot of new integration capabilities of data. How is that impacting the dynamics? >> Yeah, absolutely. So I'll say that the ability to either take the data that has that exists in training a model to do something useful with it, and more interestingly I would say, using baseline foundational models and with a little bit of data, turn them into something that can do a specialized task really, really well. Created this really fast proliferation of really impactful applications, right? >> If every company now is looking at this trend and I'm seeing a lot... And I think every company will rebuild their business with machine learning. If they're not already doing it. And the folks that aren't will probably be dinosaurs will be out of business. This is a real business transformation moment where machine learning and AI, as it goes mainstream. I think it's just the beginning. This is where you guys come in, and you guys are poised for handling this frenzy to change business with machine learning models. How do you guys help customers as they look at this, you know, transition to get, you know, concept to production with machine learning? >> Great. Great questions, yeah, so I would say that it's fair to say there's a bunch of models out there that can do useful things right off the box, right? So and also, the ability to create models improved quite a bit. So the challenge now shifted to customers, you know. Everyone is looking to incorporating AI into their applications. So what we do for them is to, first of all, how do you do that quickly, without needing highly specialized, difficult to find engineering? And very importantly, how do you do that at cost that's accessible, right? So all of these fantastic models that we just talked about, they use an amount of computing that's just astronomical compared to anything else we've done in the past. It means the costs that come with it, are also very, very high. So it's important to enable customers to, you know, incorporate AI into their applications, to their use cases in a way that they can do, with the people that they have, and the costs that they can afford, such that they can have, you know, the maximum impacting possibly have. And finally, you know, helping them deal with hardware availability, as you know, even though we made a lot of progress in making computing cheaper and cheaper. Even to this day, you know, you can never get enough. And getting an allocation, getting the right hardware to run these incredibly hungry models is hard. And we help customers deal with, you know, harder availability as well. >> Yeah, for the folks watching as a... If you search YouTube, there's an interview we did last year at "re:MARS," I mentioned that earlier, just a great interview. You talked about this hardware independence, this traction. I want to get into that, because if you look at all the foundation models that are out there right now, that are getting traction, you're seeing two trends. You're seeing proprietary and open source. And obviously, open source always wins in my opinion, but, you know, there's this iPhone moment and android moment that one of your investors John Torrey from Madrona, talked about was is iPhone versus Android moment, you know, one's proprietary hardware and they're very specialized high performance and then open source. This is an important distinction and you guys are hardware independent. What's the... Explain what all this means. >> Yeah. Great set of questions. First of all, yeah. So, you know, OpenAI, and of course, they create ChatGPT and they offer an API to run these models that does amazing things. But customers have to be able to go and send their data over to OpenAI, right? So, and run the model there and get the outputs. Now, there's open source models that can do amazing things as well, right? So they typically open source models, so they don't lag behind, you know, these proprietary closed models by more than say, you know, six months or so, let's say. And it means that enabling customers to take the models that they want and deploy under their control is something that's very valuable, because one, you don't have to expose your data to externally. Two, you can customize the model even more to the things that you wanted to do. And then three, you can run on an infrastructure that can be much more cost effective than having to, you know, pay somebody else's, you know, cost and markup, right? So, and where we help them is essentially help customers, enable customers to take machine learning models, say an open source model, and automate the process of putting them into production, optimize them to run with the right performance, and more importantly, give them the independence to run where they need to run, where they can run best, right? >> Yeah, and also, you know, I point out all the time that, you know, there's never any stopping the innovation of hardware silicon. You're seeing cloud computing more coming in there. So, you know, being hardware independent has some advantages. And if you look at OpenAI, for instance, you mentioned ChatGPT, I think this is interesting because I think everyone is scratching their head, going, "Okay, I need to move to this new generation." What's your pro tip and advice for folks who want to move to, or businesses that want to say move to machine learning? How do they get started? What are some of the considerations they need to think about to deploy these models into production? >> Yeah, great though. Great set of questions. First of all, I mean, I'm sure they're very aware of the kind of things that you want to do with AI, right? So you could be interacting with customers, you know, automating, interacting with customers. It could be, you know, finding issues in production lines. It could be, you know... Generating, you know, making it easier to produce content and so on. Like, you know, customers, users would have an idea what they want to do. You know, from that it can actually determine, what kind of machine learning models would solve the problem that would, you know, fits that use case. But then, that's when the hard thing begins, right? So when you find a model, identify the model that can do the thing that you wanted to do, you need to turn that into a thing that you can deploy. So how do you go from machine learning model that does a thing that you need to do, to a container with the right executor, the artifact they can actually go and deploy, right? So we've seen customers doing that on their own, right? So, and it's got a bit of work, and that's why we are excited about the automation that we can offer and then turn that into a turnkey problem, right? So a turnkey process. >> Luis, talk about the use cases. If I don't mind going and double down on the previous answer. You got existing services, and then there's new AI applications, AI for applications. What are the use cases with existing stuff, and the new applications that are being built? >> Yeah, I mean, existing itself is, for example, how do you do very smart search and auto completion, you know, when you are editing documents, for example. Very, very smart search of documents, summarization of tax, expanding bullets into pros in a way that, you know, don't have to spend as much human time. Just some of the existing applications, right? So some of the new ones are like truly AI native ways of producing content. Like there's a company that, you know, we share investors and love what they're doing called runwayyML, for example. It's sort of like an AI first way of editing and creating visual content, right? So you could say you have a video, you could say make this video look like, it's night as opposed to dark, or remove that dog in the corner. You can do that in a way that you couldn't do otherwise. So there's like definitely AI native use cases. And yet not only in life sciences, you know, there's quite a bit of advances on AI-based, you know, therapies and diagnostics processes that are designed using automated processes. And this is something that I feel like, we were just scratching the surface there. There's huge opportunities there, right? >> Talk about the inference and AI and production kind of angle here, because cost is a huge concern when you look at... And there's a hardware and that flexibility there. So I can see how that could help, but is there a cost freight train that can get out of control here if you don't deploy properly? Talk about the scale problem around cost in AI. >> Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, very quickly. One thing that people tend to think about is the cost is. You know, training has really high dollar amounts it tends over index on that. But what you have to think about is that for every model that's actually useful, you're going to train it once, and then run it a large number of times in inference. That means that over the lifetime of a model, the vast majority of the compute cycles and the cost are going to go to inference. And that's what we address, right? So, and to give you some idea, if you're talking about using large language model today, you know, you can say it's going to cost a couple of cents per, you know, 2,000 words output. If you have a million users active, you know, a day, you know, if you're lucky and you have that, you can, this cost can actually balloon very quickly to millions of dollars a month, just in inferencing costs. You know, assuming you know, that you actually have access to the infrastructure to run it, right? So means that if you don't pay attention to these inference costs and that's definitely going to be a surprise. And affects the economics of the product where this is embedded in, right? So this is something that, you know, if there's quite a bit of attention being put on right now on how do you do search with large language models and you don't pay attention to the economics, you know, you can have a surprise. You have to change the business model there. >> Yeah. I think that's important to call out, because you don't want it to be a runaway cost structure where you architected it wrong and then next thing you know, you got to unwind that. I mean, it's more than technical debt, it's actually real debt, it's real money. So, talk about some of the dynamics with the customers. How are they architecting this? How do they get ahead of that problem? What do you guys do specifically to solve that? >> Yeah, I mean, well, we help customers. So, it's first of all, be hyper aware, you know, understanding what's going to be the cost for them deploying the models into production and showing them the possibilities of how you can deploy the model with different cost structure, right? So that's where, you know, the ability to have hardware independence is so important because once you have hardware independence, after you optimize models, obviously, you have a new, you know, dimension of freedom to choose, you know, what is the right throughput per dollar for you. And then where, and what are the options? And once you make that decision, you want to automate the process of putting into production. So the way we help customers is showing very clearly in their use case, you know, how they can deploy their models in a much more cost-effective way. You know, when the cases... There's a case study that we put out recently, showing a 4x reduction in deployment costs, right? So this is by doing a mix optimization and choosing the right hardware. >> How do you address the concern that someone might say, Luis said, "Hey, you know, I don't want to degrade performance and latency, and I don't want the user experience to suffer." What's the answer there? >> Two things. So first of all, all of the manipulations that we do in the model is to turn the model to efficient code without changing the behavior of the models. We wouldn't degrade the experience of the user by having the model be wrong more often. And we don't change that at all. The model behaves the way it was validated for. And then the second thing is, you know, user experience with respect to latency, it's all about a maximum... Like, you could say, I want a model to run at 50 milliseconds or less. If it's much faster than 15 seconds, you're not going to notice the difference. But if it's lower, you're going to notice a difference. So the key here is that, how do you find a set of options to deploy, that you are not overshooting performance in a way that's going to lead to costs that has no additional benefits. And this provides a huge, a very significant margin of choices, set of choices that you can optimize for cost without degrading customer experience, right. End user experience. >> Yeah, and I also point out the large language models like the ChatGPTs of the world, they're coming out with Dave Moth and I were talking on this breaking analysis around, this being like, over 10X more computational intensive on capabilities. So this hardware independence is a huge thing. So, and also supply chain, some people can't get servers by the way, so, or hardware these days. >> Or even more interestingly, right? So they do not grow in trees, John. Like GPUs is not kind of stuff that you plant an orchard until you have a bunch and then you can increase it, but no, these things, you know, take a while. So, and you can't increase it overnight. So being able to live with those cycles that are available to you is not just important for all for cost, but also important for people to scale and serve more users at, you know, at whatever pace that they come, right? >> You know, it's really great to talk to you, and congratulations on OctaML. Looking forward to the startup showcase, we'll be featuring you guys there. But I want to get your personal opinion as someone in the industry and also, someone who's been in the computer science area for your career. You know, computer science has always been great, and there's more people enrolling in computer science, more diversity than ever before, but there's also more computer science related fields. How is this opening up computer science and where's AI going with the computers, with the science? Can you share your vision on, you know, the aperture, or the landscape of CompSci, or CS students, and opportunities. >> Yeah, no, absolutely. I think it's fair to say that computer has been embedded in pretty much every aspect of human life these days. Human life these days, right? So for everything. And AI has been a counterpart, it been an integral component of computer science for a while. And this medicines that happened in the last 10, 15 years in AI has shown, you know, new application has I think re-energized how people see what computers can do. And you, you know, there is this picture in our department that shows computer science at the center called the flower picture, and then all the different paddles like life sciences, social sciences, and then, you know, mechanical engineering, all these other things that, and I feel like it can replace that center with computer science. I put AI there as well, you see AI, you know touching all these applications. AI in healthcare, diagnostics. AI in discovery in the sciences, right? So, but then also AI doing things that, you know, the humans wouldn't have to do anymore. They can do better things with their brains, right? So it's permitting every single aspect of human life from intellectual endeavor to day-to-day work, right? >> Yeah. And I think the ChatGPT and OpenAI has really kind of created a mainstream view that everyone sees value in it. Like you could be in the data center, you could be in bio, you could be in healthcare. I mean, every industry sees value. So this brings up what I can call the horizontally scalable use constance. And so this opens up the conversation, what's going to change from this? Because if you go horizontally scalable, which is a cloud concept as you know, that's going to create a lot of opportunities and some shifting of how you think about architecture around data, for instance. What's your opinion on what this will do to change the inflection of the role of architecting platforms and the role of data specifically? >> Yeah, so good question. There is a lot in there, by the way, I should have added the previous question, that you can use AI to do better AI as well, which is what we do, and other folks are doing as well. And so the point I wanted to make here is that it's pretty clear that you have a cloud focus component with a nudge focused counterparts. Like you have AI models, but both in the Cloud and in the Edge, right? So the ability of being able to run your AI model where it runs best also has a data advantage to it from say, from a privacy point of view. That's inherently could say, "Hey, I want to run something, you know, locally, strictly locally, such that I don't expose the data to an infrastructure." And you know that the data never leaves you, right? Never leaves the device. Now you can imagine things that's already starting to happen, like you do some forms of training and model customization in the model architecture itself and the system architecture, such that you do this as close to the user as possible. And there's something called federated learning that has been around for some time now that's finally happening is, how do you get a data from butcher places, you do, you know, some common learning and then you send a model to the Edges, and they get refined for the final use in a way that you get the advantage of aggregating data but you don't get the disadvantage of privacy issues and so on. >> It's super exciting. >> And some of the considerations, yeah. >> It's super exciting area around data infrastructure, data science, computer science. Luis, congratulations on your success at OctaML. You're in the middle of it. And the best thing about its businesses are looking at this and really reinventing themselves and if a business isn't thinking about restructuring their business around AI, they're probably will be out of business. So this is a great time to be in the field. So thank you for sharing your insights here in theCUBE. >> Great. Thank you very much, John. Always a pleasure talking to you. Always have a lot of fun. And we both speak really fast, I can tell, you know, so. (both laughing) >> I know. We'll not the transcript available, we'll integrate it into our CubeGPT model that we have Luis. >> That's right. >> Great. >> Great. >> Great to talk to you, thank you, John. Thanks, man, bye. >> Hey, this is theCUBE. I'm John Furrier, here in Palo Alto, Cube Conversation. Thanks for watching. (gentle music)

>>Hello, everyone. Welcome to the cubes presentation of the 80 startup showcase marketing technology, emerging cloud scale customer experiences. This is season two, episode three of the ongoing series covering the exciting startups from the, a AWS ecosystem to talk about all the top trends and also featuring the key customers. I'm your host, John ER, today we're joined by Louis Fernando, Denise vice president of peak pay social and John Kim, the CEO of Sandberg to learn about the future of what's going on in fostering deeper customer relationships. Gentlemen, thanks for joining us in the cube showcase, >>Excited to be here. >>So John talk about Sendbird real quick set the table for us. What you guys do, you got a customer here to highlight some of the key things you're doing with customers, the value proposition what's Sendbird and what's the showcase about, >>Yeah, I'm really excited to be here. Uh, I'm John founder, C of Sandberg. So Sandberg is the worst leading conversations platform for mobile applications. We can power user to user conversations in mobile applications, as well as the brand to user conversations such as marketing sales and support. So, uh, today we power over quarter billion users on a monthly basis. Uh, we have, you know, through over 300 employees across seven different countries around the world, we work with some of the world's leading, uh, uh, customers such as big pay that we are going to showcase today, along with other, uh, wonderful customers like DoorDash, Reddit, <inaudible> sports and so forth. We have collectively raised over 200 million in funding. Um, so that's kind of where we are today. >>Well, it's always great to have, uh, one great success. Uh, good funding, more important is the customers. And I love showcases where the customers do the talking, because that means you've got some success stories. Louise, talk about, um, are you happy customer? What's it like working with Sandberg? Give us the, give us the scoop. >>So sandbar is being a great partner with us. So pick pay is a Brazilian payment app. We're at a FinTech here with more than 30 million active users using everyday pick pay to pay everything. So the, the, the majority of the payments are between peers, between people. So sandbar is, is helping us to improve a lot this journey to make it more pleasant between every everyone who are using big, big. So we are here, let's talk and it's a >>Pleasure. Yeah, it's awesome. Well, I great to have you guys on great, great relationship. And one of the things we've been talking about on the cube, if the folks watching that know our audience, no we've been banging the, the drum hard on this new world and this new patterns of user expectations and building relationships in this new digital world is not about the old way, the old MarTech way. There are new new use cases, new expectations by the consumers, John, that are, that are bringing up new opportunities, but also expectations. It's not about, I mean, I mean, if someone's using discord, for example, cuz they're gamers, they're done discord. If they want to communicate with, with slack, they, I do slack, SMS, kind of old hat. You got WhatsApp, you've got all these now peer to peer organic connections, multiple channels. This is all the new world. What's your vision on this new relationship building digital communication world. >>Yeah. So I, I think you brought a really good point there. One of the most frequently used applications in the world today are messaging applications across any countries, any region, any culture, if you look at the most frequently used and most longest used applications are usually some form of a, a messaging application. Now the end users or the customers in the world are so used to using, uh, uh, such a, you know, frictionless ver very responsive, modern experience on those messaging applications. What we want to help with the business around the world, the 99.9% of the business around the world don't have those really te knowledge or user experience expertise in messaging. So we want to help our businesses, help our customers be able to harness the power of modern messaging capabilities and then be able to embed it in their own business so that they can retain their users on their platform, engage with them in the con context that their, uh, what their business is about so that they can not only, uh, control or provide a better user experience, but also be able to, uh, understand their users better, uh, understand what they're doing on their businesses, be able to own and, uh, control the data in a more secure and safe way. >>So really it's uh, we're like the Robin hood of the world trying to keep superpower yeah. Back to the businesses. >>Yeah. Deal from the rich idea, the messaging scale. Bring that to everybody else. I love that. Uh, and you got kind of this double int Robin hood kind of new for the new generation finance. This is about taking the advantage of scalable platforms, monopolies, right. And giving the entrepreneur an opportunity to have that same capability feature, rich Louise PPE. You guys used Sendbird together. You have to level up, you gotta compete with those big monopolies to pride, scalable conversations. Okay. How did you engage this? What was your success path look? What was it look like? >>Yeah. When we look to this majority, the bigger chat apps that we have nowadays in the market, we are looking to them and then Brazilians are using for their daily course, but Brazilians are paying every day millions and millions of payments. And these chat apps are not, uh, able to, to, to deal with these payments. So what we are doing here is that, uh, providing a solution where every conversation that are going to happen before, during, or after a payment between the, the people, they would, uh, uh, have a nice platform that could afford all, all of their emotions and discussions that they have to do before or after the payment. So we are putting together the chat platform and we with the payment platform. So that's, that's what we are doing now. >>Okay. So just so I get this right. You're using Sandberg essentially integrated your mobile payment experience. Okay. Which is your app you're Sandberg to bring that scalability into the, into the social app application into the app itself. Is that right? >>Yes. Perfect. Integrated with the payment journey. So everybody who is going to pay, they need to find the one, the, the one they want to pay and then they can chat and conclude the payment through the platform. Yeah. I >>Mean, why not have it right there at point of, uh, transaction. Right. Um, why did you, um, decide to, um, to use conversations in your mobile wallet? Just curious. >>So it's important to say that we were born social. We born in 2012. So when our main main product was peer to peer payments, so everybody were sending money to a friend requesting or charging their family. So a service provider. And once we, we started as a social platform in that period. In that moment, we are just focusing in likes comments and like public interactions and the word become more private. And as soon we under understood this situation, we decided to move from a public feed to a private, to a private interaction. So that's, uh, that then the, the conversational space was the solution for that moving from a public interaction to a private interaction. So between the peers, which are involved in the, the transaction. So that's why we are providing the chat solution integrated with payments. >>That's a great call. John, just give some context here, again, for the folks watching this is now expected, this integrated experience. What's your, how would you talk to folks out there? I mean, first of all, I, I, I see it clearly, you've got an app, you gotta have all this integration and you need it scaling to reach features. Talk about your view on that. Is that the, is that what's happening here? What's, what's the real dynamic here. What's the, the big trend. >>Yeah. One thing that's, uh, super interesting about, uh, uh, like messaging experience in general, if you think about any kind of conversations that's happening, uh, digitally between human beings, more and more conversations, just like what Louis mentioned earlier are happening between in a private setting, even on applications, whether it be slack or other forms of communication, uh, more hap uh, more conversations happen through either one-on-one conversations or in a private small group settings. And because people feel more secure, uh, safe to have, uh, more intimate conversations. So even when you're making transactions is more, you know, there's a higher trust and, uh, people tend to engage, uh, far better on platforms through these kind of private conversations. That's where we kind of come in, whether it be, you want to set a one-on-one conversations or with a group conversation. And then ultimately if you want to take it public in a large group setting, you can also support, you know, thousands, if not, you know, hundreds of thousands of people, uh, engaging a public forum as well. So all of those capabilities can be implemented using something Ember, but again, the world is, uh, right now the businesses and how the user are, are interacting with this with each other is all happening through digital conversations. And we're seeing more and more of that happening, uh, throughout the life cycle of our company. >>Yeah, just as a sidebar, I was just talking to a venture in San Francisco the other day, and we're talking about the future of security and SAS and cloud scale. And, you know, the conversation went to more of, is it SAS? Is it platform as a service Louis? I wanna get your thoughts because, you know, you're seeing more and more needs for customization, low code, no code. You're seeing these trends. You gotta built in security. So, you know, the different, the old SAS model was softwares a service, but now that's everything in the cloud is softwares a service. So, but you need to have that platform kind of vibe for scale customization, maybe some developer integration, cuz apps are becoming the, the touchpoint. So can you walk us through what your vision was when you decided to integrate, chat into your app and how did you see that chat, changing the customer experience for payments and across your user journey? Cause, I mean, it's obvious now looking at it, but it might not have been for some. What was your, what was your vision? And when you had to do that, >>When you looked to Brazilian reality, we can see those in, uh, payment apps. All of them are focused on the transactional moment. And as soon as we started to think, how could be, how could our journey be better, more pleased than the others and make people want to be here and to use and to open our app every day is just about making the interaction with the peers easier, even with a merchant or even with my friend. So the main point that our first step was just to connect all, all the users between themselves to payments. The second step we are providing now is using the chat platform, the send bird platform as a platform for peak pay. So we are going to provide more best information. We're going to provide a better customer experience through the support and everything. So, um, this, this, this interaction or this connection, this partnership with Sandberg are going to unlock a new level of service for our users. And at the same time, a much more pleasant or a more pleasant journey for them while they are using the, the app for a, a simple payment, or if they are going to look for a group objective or maybe a crowdfund in the future or a group to decide, or just to pay something. So we are then locking a new level of interaction between the peers between the people and the users that are, that are involved into this, this payment or this simple transaction, we are making it more conversational. >>Yeah. You're making the application more valuable. We're gonna get to that in the next segment about, you know, the future of apps one and done, you see a lot of sports apps, oh, this big tournament, you know, and then you use it and then you never use it again until next year. You know, you have very time specific apps, but now you guys are smart to kind of build this in, but I gotta ask you a question because a lot of developers and companies out there always have this buy versus build decision. Why did you decide to use Sendbird versus building it in house? It's always kind of like the big trade off. >>Yeah. First of all, it will take a long, long time for us to achieve a major platform as Sandberg. And we are not a chat platform. So we are going to use this social interaction to improve the payment platform that we have. So when we look to the market and we found Sandberg, then we thought, okay, this guys, they are a real platform. And through the conversations, we are seeing that they are roadmap working in synergy with our roadmap. And then we can, we could start to deliver value to our, to our users in a fastest way. Could you imagine it spending 2, 3, 4 years to develop something like sand? And even when we achieve this point, probably our solution will be, would be weaker than, than Sandberg. So it was like no brainer to do that. Yeah. Because we want to improve the payment journey, not to do a chat, only a chat platform. So that's why we are working together to prove it's >>Really, you start to see these plugins, these, you know, look at Stripe for payments, for instance, right. And here in the success they've had, you know, people want to plug in for services. So John, I gotta ask you about, um, about the, the complexity that goes into it. The trust required that they have for you, you have to do this heavy lifting, you gotta provide the confidence that your service is gonna have to scale the compliance. Talk about that. What do you guys do under the covers that make this easy again, great business model, heavy lifting done by you. Seamless integration provide that value. That's why business is good, but there's a lot going on share what's happening under the, under the covers. >>Yeah. Um, before going to like the technical, like intricacy of what we do just to provide a little bit of background context on why we even started this business is we, uh, this is my second startup. My first company was a gaming company. We had built like chat three, four times just for our own game. So we were basically, we felt like we were reinventing the wheel. And then we actually went on a buyer's journey when we were building a social application, uh, uh, for, for, uh, uh, building our own community. We tried to actually be a buyer to see if we can actually find a solution. We want to use turns out that there weren't a lot of like sophisticated, you know, top notch, modern, uh, uh, chat experience that we can build using some other third party solutions. So we had to build all of that ourselves, which became the foundation for se today. >>And what we realized is that for most companies like using a building, the most sophisticated chat is probably not going to be their highest priority in case a pick pay will be, you know, financial transactions and all the other business that can be built on and hosted by platform like pick pay. But, you know, building the most topnotch chat experience would be a priority for a company like let's say WhatsApp or, or telegram, but it will probably not be the priority for, you know, major gaming companies, food delivery companies, finance companies, chat is not the highest priority. That's kind of where we come in, cuz chat is the highest priority for us. And we also have a privilege of working with some of the other, uh, world industry, uh, industry leaders. So by, uh, having this collective experience, working with the industry leaders, we get, uh, uh, technological superiority, being able to, uh, scale to, you know, hundreds of millions of users on a monthly basis. Also the security and the compliances by working with some of the largest commercial banks on some of the largest FinTech applications across the globe. So we have, you know, security, compliances, all the industry, best practices that are built in and all the new topnotch user experience that we are, uh, building with other customers can be also be, uh, utilized by a customer like pick pay. So you get this collective almost like evolutionary benefit. Yeah. By, uh, working with a company like us, >>You get a lot of economies of scale. Could you mind just sharing the URL for the company? So folks watching can go get, do a deep dive. Cause I'm you guys got a lot of, lot of, um, certifications under the covers, a lot of things you guys do. So you mind just sharing URL real quick. >>Yeah. So our company, uh, you can find everything about our company on sandberg.com like carrot pigeon. So, uh, you're sending a bird to send a message. So, uh, yeah. send.com >>All so let's get it to the application, cuz this is really interesting cuz Chad is table stakes now, but things are evolving beyond Chad. You gotta integrate that user experience. It's data. Now you gotta have scale. I mean, you know, people who wanna roll their own chat will find out there's a lot of client side and backend scale issues. Right. You can have a tsunami river like on Twitch, you know, you chat. I mean that, could you got client side issues, data scale. <laugh> right. You got backend. Um, Louis, talk about that dynamic because you know, as you start to scale, you want to rely on that. Talk about this dynamic, how apps now are integrating all these new features. So is it, are apps gonna go like more multifunctional? Do you see apps one and done? What's the, how do you guys see this app world playing out and where does, does the Sendbird fit in? And >>Just, just let me know better John, about the performance or about the, just, just let me >>Oh, slow with performance. Uh, performance is huge, right? You gotta have no one wants to have lag on, on chat. >>Okay. So, um, big pay when we look to the payments have millions, thousands of, of, of payments happen happening every second. So what we are doing now is moving all the payments through a conversation. So it always happened inside the conversation. So since from the first moment, um, every second counts to convert this client. And since from the first moment we never saw in, on Sandberg, any issue about that. And even when we have a question or something that we need to improve the team we're working together. So that that's, those are the points that are making us to work together and to make things going pretty fast. When we look to the users who are going to use chat, they are, their intention is three times better than the users who are not using payments through the chat. They are average. Average spent is three times higher too. >>So they, they are making more connections. They are chatting with their friends. They are friends are here. So the network effect is stronger. So if they're going to pay and they need to wait one more second, two seconds to conclude the payment, probably they will not go into choose paying through the, again, they will use only the wallet, only the code, only the Alliance of the user. So that's is so important for us to perform really, really fast. And then this is what we are finding. And this is what is happening with the integration with Sandberg. >>And what's interesting is, is that the by build chat with conversation, we just had a minute ago kind of plays in here. You get the benefits of Sandberg, but now your transactional fidelity is in the chat <laugh> that you don't build that you rely on them on. So again, that's an interesting dynamic. This is the future of apps, John, this is where it matters. The engagement. This is what you talk about is the new, the new digital experience who would've thought that five, 10 years ago. I mean, chat was just like, Hey, what's going around direct message. Now it's integral part of the app. What's your reading. >>Yeah. I mean, we're seeing that across, uh, uh, to Lewis's point, not just transactions, but like marketing messages are now being sent through chat. So the marketing is no longer just about like giving discount calls, but you can actually reengage with the brand. Uh, also support is becoming more real time through chat. So you're actually building a relationship. The support agents have a better context about the previous conversations and the transactions, the sales conversations, even like building, uh, building alerts, notification, all those things are now, uh, happening through conversations. And that's a better way for customers to engage with the brand cuz you actually, you're actually building a better relationship and also, uh, being able to trust the brand more because there is a channel for you to communicate and, and, and be seen and be heard, uh, by the brand. So we do believe that that's the future of the business and how more and more, uh, brands will be building relationships with their customers. >>Yeah. I love, I love your business model. I think it's really critical. And I think that stickiness is a real, uh, call out point there and the brand, the co-branding and the branding capability, but also really quickly in the last minute we have John and Luis, if you don't mind talking about security, I mean, I can't go a day now without getting an SMS scam, uh, text, uh, you seeing it now on WhatsApp. I mean, I don't even use telegram anymore. I mean, come on. So like, like this is now a problem. The old way has been infiltrated with spam and security issues. Security has to be there. The trust and security real quick, John, we'll start with you and we all Louis go, go ahead. >>No, no. Just, just to, to say how important is that we are not only a chatting platform. We are a payment platform, so we have money now, the transaction. So here in Brazil, we have all this safe, the, the, the layers, the security layers that we have in, on our app. And then we have the security layers provided from Sandburg. So, and when we look to the features, Sandberg are providing to us a lot of features that help users to feel safer like per refined profiles, like announcements, where it's a profile from peak pay, where the users can recognize. So this is peak pay talking with me. It's not a user trying to pass, trying to use big Bay's name to talk with me. So these issues is something that we are really, really, we really care about here because we are not only a chat platform. As I said before, we are a payment platform. We are a FinTech, we're at a digital bank. So we need to take care a lot and we don't have any complaint about it because Sandberg understood it. And then they, they, they are providing since the first moment with the perfect solutions and the user interface to make it simpler for the users to recognize that we speak, pay who is chatting with them, not a user with, with bad, bad intentions. >>Great, great insight, Louis. Thanks for sharing that, John really appreciate you guys coming on. Great showcase. Real final word. John will give you the final word folks watching out there. How do they engage with Sendbird? I want to integrate, I want to use your chat service. What do I do? Do I have to connect in as it managed service is the line of code. What do I do to get Sendbird? >>Yeah. So if you're a developer building a mobile application, simply come visit our website, we have a open documentation and SDK you can download and simply plug into your application. You can have a chat experience up and running matter of minutes, if not ours using our UI kit. So we want to make it as easy as possible for all the builders in the world to be able to harness the superpower of digital conversations. >>All right, great. Congratulations, John, on your success and all the growth and Louis, thanks for coming in, sharing the customer perspective and great insight. Thanks for coming on the showcase. Really appreciate it. Thanks for your time. >>Yeah. Thank you for having me. >>Okay. The a of us startup showcase season two, episode three here I'm John for your host. Thanks for watching.

(upbeat music) >> Welcome back, everyone, to theCUBE's coverage here live on the floor at AWS re:MARS 2022. I'm John Furrier, host for theCUBE. Great event, machine learning, automation, robotics, space, that's MARS. It's part of the re-series of events, re:Invent's the big event at the end of the year, re:Inforce, security, re:MARS, really intersection of the future of space, industrial, automation, which is very heavily DevOps machine learning, of course, machine learning, which is AI. We have Luis Ceze here, who's the CEO co-founder of OctoML. Welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you very much for having me in the show, John. >> So we've been following you guys. You guys are a growing startup funded by Madrona Venture Capital, one of your backers. You guys are here at the show. This is a, I would say small show relative what it's going to be, but a lot of robotics, a lot of space, a lot of industrial kind of edge, but machine learning is the centerpiece of this trend. You guys are in the middle of it. Tell us your story. >> Absolutely, yeah. So our mission is to make machine learning sustainable and accessible to everyone. So I say sustainable because it means we're going to make it faster and more efficient. You know, use less human effort, and accessible to everyone, accessible to as many developers as possible, and also accessible in any device. So, we started from an open source project that began at University of Washington, where I'm a professor there. And several of the co-founders were PhD students there. We started with this open source project called Apache TVM that had actually contributions and collaborations from Amazon and a bunch of other big tech companies. And that allows you to get a machine learning model and run on any hardware, like run on CPUs, GPUs, various GPUs, accelerators, and so on. It was the kernel of our company and the project's been around for about six years or so. Company is about three years old. And we grew from Apache TVM into a whole platform that essentially supports any model on any hardware cloud and edge. >> So is the thesis that, when it first started, that you want to be agnostic on platform? >> Agnostic on hardware, that's right. >> Hardware, hardware. >> Yeah. >> What was it like back then? What kind of hardware were you talking about back then? Cause a lot's changed, certainly on the silicon side. >> Luis: Absolutely, yeah. >> So take me through the journey, 'cause I could see the progression. I'm connecting the dots here. >> So once upon a time, yeah, no... (both chuckling) >> I walked in the snow with my bare feet. >> You have to be careful because if you wake up the professor in me, then you're going to be here for two hours, you know. >> Fast forward. >> The average version here is that, clearly machine learning has shown to actually solve real interesting, high value problems. And where machine learning runs in the end, it becomes code that runs on different hardware, right? And when we started Apache TVM, which stands for tensor virtual machine, at that time it was just beginning to start using GPUs for machine learning, we already saw that, with a bunch of machine learning models popping up and CPUs and GPU's starting to be used for machine learning, it was clear that it come opportunity to run on everywhere. >> And GPU's were coming fast. >> GPUs were coming and huge diversity of CPUs, of GPU's and accelerators now, and the ecosystem and the system software that maps models to hardware is still very fragmented today. So hardware vendors have their own specific stacks. So Nvidia has its own software stack, and so does Intel, AMD. And honestly, I mean, I hope I'm not being, you know, too controversial here to say that it kind of of looks like the mainframe era. We had tight coupling between hardware and software. You know, if you bought IBM hardware, you had to buy IBM OS and IBM database, IBM applications, it all tightly coupled. And if you want to use IBM software, you had to buy IBM hardware. So that's kind of like what machine learning systems look like today. If you buy a certain big name GPU, you've got to use their software. Even if you use their software, which is pretty good, you have to buy their GPUs, right? So, but you know, we wanted to help peel away the model and the software infrastructure from the hardware to give people choice, ability to run the models where it best suit them. Right? So that includes picking the best instance in the cloud, that's going to give you the right, you know, cost properties, performance properties, or might want to run it on the edge. You might run it on an accelerator. >> What year was that roughly, when you were going this? >> We started that project in 2015, 2016 >> Yeah. So that was pre-conventional wisdom. I think TensorFlow wasn't even around yet. >> Luis: No, it wasn't. >> It was, I'm thinking like 2017 or so. >> Luis: Right. So that was the beginning of, okay, this is opportunity. AWS, I don't think they had released some of the nitro stuff that the Hamilton was working on. So, they were already kind of going that way. It's kind of like converging. >> Luis: Yeah. >> The space was happening, exploding. >> Right. And the way that was dealt with, and to this day, you know, to a large extent as well is by backing machine learning models with a bunch of hardware specific libraries. And we were some of the first ones to say, like, know what, let's take a compilation approach, take a model and compile it to very efficient code for that specific hardware. And what underpins all of that is using machine learning for machine learning code optimization. Right? But it was way back when. We can talk about where we are today. >> No, let's fast forward. >> That's the beginning of the open source project. >> But that was a fundamental belief, worldview there. I mean, you have a world real view that was logical when you compare to the mainframe, but not obvious to the machine learning community. Okay, good call, check. Now let's fast forward, okay. Evolution, we'll go through the speed of the years. More chips are coming, you got GPUs, and seeing what's going on in AWS. Wow! Now it's booming. Now I got unlimited processors, I got silicon on chips, I got, everywhere >> Yeah. And what's interesting is that the ecosystem got even more complex, in fact. Because now you have, there's a cross product between machine learning models, frameworks like TensorFlow, PyTorch, Keras, and like that and so on, and then hardware targets. So how do you navigate that? What we want here, our vision is to say, folks should focus, people should focus on making the machine learning models do what they want to do that solves a value, like solves a problem of high value to them. Right? So another deployment should be completely automatic. Today, it's very, very manual to a large extent. So once you're serious about deploying machine learning model, you got a good understanding where you're going to deploy it, how you're going to deploy it, and then, you know, pick out the right libraries and compilers, and we automated the whole thing in our platform. This is why you see the tagline, the booth is right there, like bringing DevOps agility for machine learning, because our mission is to make that fully transparent. >> Well, I think that, first of all, I use that line here, cause I'm looking at it here on live on camera. People can't see, but it's like, I use it on a couple couple of my interviews because the word agility is very interesting because that's kind of the test on any kind of approach these days. Agility could be, and I talked to the robotics guys, just having their product be more agile. I talked to Pepsi here just before you came on, they had this large scale data environment because they built an architecture, but that fostered agility. So again, this is an architectural concept, it's a systems' view of agility being the output, and removing dependencies, which I think what you guys were trying to do. >> Only part of what we do. Right? So agility means a bunch of things. First, you know-- >> Yeah explain. >> Today it takes a couple months to get a model from, when the model's ready, to production, why not turn that in two hours. Agile, literally, physically agile, in terms of walk off time. Right? And then the other thing is give you flexibility to choose where your model should run. So, in our deployment, between the demo and the platform expansion that we announced yesterday, you know, we give the ability of getting your model and, you know, get it compiled, get it optimized for any instance in the cloud and automatically move it around. Today, that's not the case. You have to pick one instance and that's what you do. And then you might auto scale with that one instance. So we give the agility of actually running and scaling the model the way you want, and the way it gives you the right SLAs. >> Yeah, I think Swami was mentioning that, not specifically that use case for you, but that use case generally, that scale being moving things around, making them faster, not having to do that integration work. >> Scale, and run the models where they need to run. Like some day you want to have a large scale deployment in the cloud. You're going to have models in the edge for various reasons because speed of light is limited. We cannot make lights faster. So, you know, got to have some, that's a physics there you cannot change. There's privacy reasons. You want to keep data locally, not send it around to run the model locally. So anyways, and giving the flexibility. >> Let me jump in real quick. I want to ask this specific question because you made me think of something. So we're just having a data mesh conversation. And one of the comments that's come out of a few of these data as code conversations is data's the product now. So if you can move data to the edge, which everyone's talking about, you know, why move data if you don't have to, but I can move a machine learning algorithm to the edge. Cause it's costly to move data. I can move computer, everyone knows that. But now I can move machine learning to anywhere else and not worry about integrating on the fly. So the model is the code. >> It is the product. >> Yeah. And since you said, the model is the code, okay, now we're talking even more here. So machine learning models today are not treated as code, by the way. So do not have any of the typical properties of code that you can, whenever you write a piece of code, you run a code, you don't know, you don't even think what is a CPU, we don't think where it runs, what kind of CPU it runs, what kind of instance it runs. But with machine learning model, you do. So what we are doing and created this fully transparent automated way of allowing you to treat your machine learning models if you were a regular function that you call and then a function could run anywhere. >> Yeah. >> Right. >> That's why-- >> That's better. >> Bringing DevOps agility-- >> That's better. >> Yeah. And you can use existing-- >> That's better, because I can run it on the Artemis too, in space. >> You could, yeah. >> If they have the hardware. (both laugh) >> And that allows you to run your existing, continue to use your existing DevOps infrastructure and your existing people. >> So I have to ask you, cause since you're a professor, this is like a masterclass on theCube. Thank you for coming on. Professor. (Luis laughing) I'm a hardware guy. I'm building hardware for Boston Dynamics, Spot, the dog, that's the diversity in hardware, it's tends to be purpose driven. I got a spaceship, I'm going to have hardware on there. >> Luis: Right. >> It's generally viewed in the community here, that everyone I talk to and other communities, open source is going to drive all software. That's a check. But the scale and integration is super important. And they're also recognizing that hardware is really about the software. And they even said on stage, here. Hardware is not about the hardware, it's about the software. So if you believe that to be true, then your model checks all the boxes. Are people getting this? >> I think they're starting to. Here is why, right. A lot of companies that were hardware first, that thought about software too late, aren't making it. Right? There's a large number of hardware companies, AI chip companies that aren't making it. Probably some of them that won't make it, unfortunately just because they started thinking about software too late. I'm so glad to see a lot of the early, I hope I'm not just doing our own horn here, but Apache TVM, the infrastructure that we built to map models to different hardware, it's very flexible. So we see a lot of emerging chip companies like SiMa.ai's been doing fantastic work, and they use Apache TVM to map algorithms to their hardware. And there's a bunch of others that are also using Apache TVM. That's because you have, you know, an opening infrastructure that keeps it up to date with all the machine learning frameworks and models and allows you to extend to the chips that you want. So these companies pay attention that early, gives them a much higher fighting chance, I'd say. >> Well, first of all, not only are you backable by the VCs cause you have pedigree, you're a professor, you're smart, and you get good recruiting-- >> Luis: I don't know about the smart part. >> And you get good recruiting for PhDs out of University of Washington, which is not too shabby computer science department. But they want to make money. The VCs want to make money. >> Right. >> So you have to make money. So what's the pitch? What's the business model? >> Yeah. Absolutely. >> Share us what you're thinking there. >> Yeah. The value of using our solution is shorter time to value for your model from months to hours. Second, you shrink operator, op-packs, because you don't need a specialized expensive team. Talk about expensive, expensive engineers who can understand machine learning hardware and software engineering to deploy models. You don't need those teams if you use this automated solution, right? Then you reduce that. And also, in the process of actually getting a model and getting specialized to the hardware, making hardware aware, we're talking about a very significant performance improvement that leads to lower cost of deployment in the cloud. We're talking about very significant reduction in costs in cloud deployment. And also enabling new applications on the edge that weren't possible before. It creates, you know, latent value opportunities. Right? So, that's the high level value pitch. But how do we make money? Well, we charge for access to the platform. Right? >> Usage. Consumption. >> Yeah, and value based. Yeah, so it's consumption and value based. So depends on the scale of the deployment. If you're going to deploy machine learning model at a larger scale, chances are that it produces a lot of value. So then we'll capture some of that value in our pricing scale. >> So, you have direct sales force then to work those deals. >> Exactly. >> Got it. How many customers do you have? Just curious. >> So we started, the SaaS platform just launched now. So we started onboarding customers. We've been building this for a while. We have a bunch of, you know, partners that we can talk about openly, like, you know, revenue generating partners, that's fair to say. We work closely with Qualcomm to enable Snapdragon on TVM and hence our platform. We're close with AMD as well, enabling AMD hardware on the platform. We've been working closely with two hyperscaler cloud providers that-- >> I wonder who they are. >> I don't know who they are, right. >> Both start with the letter A. >> And they're both here, right. What is that? >> They both start with the letter A. >> Oh, that's right. >> I won't give it away. (laughing) >> Don't give it away. >> One has three, one has four. (both laugh) >> I'm guessing, by the way. >> Then we have customers in the, actually, early customers have been using the platform from the beginning in the consumer electronics space, in Japan, you know, self driving car technology, as well. As well as some AI first companies that actually, whose core value, the core business come from AI models. >> So, serious, serious customers. They got deep tech chops. They're integrating, they see this as a strategic part of their architecture. >> That's what I call AI native, exactly. But now there's, we have several enterprise customers in line now, we've been talking to. Of course, because now we launched the platform, now we started onboarding and exploring how we're going to serve it to these customers. But it's pretty clear that our technology can solve a lot of other pain points right now. And we're going to work with them as early customers to go and refine them. >> So, do you sell to the little guys, like us? Will we be customers if we wanted to be? >> You could, absolutely, yeah. >> What we have to do, have machine learning folks on staff? >> So, here's what you're going to have to do. Since you can see the booth, others can't. No, but they can certainly, you can try our demo. >> OctoML. >> And you should look at the transparent AI app that's compiled and optimized with our flow, and deployed and built with our flow. That allows you to get your image and do style transfer. You know, you can get you and a pineapple and see how you look like with a pineapple texture. >> We got a lot of transcript and video data. >> Right. Yeah. Right, exactly. So, you can use that. Then there's a very clear-- >> But I could use it. You're not blocking me from using it. Everyone's, it's pretty much democratized. >> You can try the demo, and then you can request access to the platform. >> But you get a lot of more serious deeper customers. But you can serve anybody, what you're saying. >> Luis: We can serve anybody, yeah. >> All right, so what's the vision going forward? Let me ask this. When did people start getting the epiphany of removing the machine learning from the hardware? Was it recently, a couple years ago? >> Well, on the research side, we helped start that trend a while ago. I don't need to repeat that. But I think the vision that's important here, I want the audience here to take away is that, there's a lot of progress being made in creating machine learning models. So, there's fantastic tools to deal with training data, and creating the models, and so on. And now there's a bunch of models that can solve real problems there. The question is, how do you very easily integrate that into your intelligent applications? Madrona Venture Group has been very vocal and investing heavily in intelligent applications both and user applications as well as enablers. So we say an enable of that because it's so easy to use our flow to get a model integrated into your application. Now, any regular software developer can integrate that. And that's just the beginning, right? Because, you know, now we have CI/CD integration to keep your models up to date, to continue to integrate, and then there's more downstream support for other features that you normally have in regular software development. >> I've been thinking about this for a long, long, time. And I think this whole code, no one thinks about code. Like, I write code, I'm deploying it. I think this idea of machine learning as code independent of other dependencies is really amazing. It's so obvious now that you say it. What's the choices now? Let's just say that, I buy it, I love it, I'm using it. Now what do I got to do if I want to deploy it? Do I have to pick processors? Are there verified platforms that you support? Is there a short list? Is there every piece of hardware? >> We actually can help you. I hope we're not saying we can do everything in the world here, but we can help you with that. So, here's how. When you have them all in the platform you can actually see how this model runs on any instance of any cloud, by the way. So we support all the three major cloud providers. And then you can make decisions. For example, if you care about latency, your model has to run on, at most 50 milliseconds, because you're going to have interactivity. And then, after that, you don't care if it's faster. All you care is that, is it going to run cheap enough. So we can help you navigate. And also going to make it automatic. >> It's like tire kicking in the dealer showroom. >> Right. >> You can test everything out, you can see the simulation. Are they simulations, or are they real tests? >> Oh, no, we run all in real hardware. So, we have, as I said, we support any instances of any of the major clouds. We actually run on the cloud. But we also support a select number of edge devices today, like ARMs and Nvidia Jetsons. And we have the OctoML cloud, which is a bunch of racks with a bunch Raspberry Pis and Nvidia Jetsons, and very soon, a bunch of mobile phones there too that can actually run the real hardware, and validate it, and test it out, so you can see that your model runs performant and economically enough in the cloud. And it can run on the edge devices-- >> You're a machine learning as a service. Would that be an accurate? >> That's part of it, because we're not doing the machine learning model itself. You come with a model and we make it deployable and make it ready to deploy. So, here's why it's important. Let me try. There's a large number of really interesting companies that do API models, as in API as a service. You have an NLP model, you have computer vision models, where you call an API and then point in the cloud. You send an image and you got a description, for example. But it is using a third party. Now, if you want to have your model on your infrastructure but having the same convenience as an API you can use our service. So, today, chances are that, if you have a model that you know that you want to do, there might not be an API for it, we actually automatically create the API for you. >> Okay, so that's why I get the DevOps agility for machine learning is a better description. Cause it's not, you're not providing the service. You're providing the service of deploying it like DevOps infrastructure as code. You're now ML as code. >> It's your model, your API, your infrastructure, but all of the convenience of having it ready to go, fully automatic, hands off. >> Cause I think what's interesting about this is that it brings the craftsmanship back to machine learning. Cause it's a craft. I mean, let's face it. >> Yeah. I want human brains, which are very precious resources, to focus on building those models, that is going to solve business problems. I don't want these very smart human brains figuring out how to scrub this into actually getting run the right way. This should be automatic. That's why we use machine learning, for machine learning to solve that. >> Here's an idea for you. We should write a book called, The Lean Machine Learning. Cause the lean startup was all about DevOps. >> Luis: We call machine leaning. No, that's not it going to work. (laughs) >> Remember when iteration was the big mantra. Oh, yeah, iterate. You know, that was from DevOps. >> Yeah, that's right. >> This code allowed for standing up stuff fast, double down, we all know the history, what it turned out. That was a good value for developers. >> I could really agree. If you don't mind me building on that point. You know, something we see as OctoML, but we also see at Madrona as well. Seeing that there's a trend towards best in breed for each one of the stages of getting a model deployed. From the data aspect of creating the data, and then to the model creation aspect, to the model deployment, and even model monitoring. Right? We develop integrations with all the major pieces of the ecosystem, such that you can integrate, say with model monitoring to go and monitor how a model is doing. Just like you monitor how code is doing in deployment in the cloud. >> It's evolution. I think it's a great step. And again, I love the analogy to the mainstream. I lived during those days. I remember the monolithic propriety, and then, you know, OSI model kind of blew it. But that OSI stack never went full stack, and it only stopped at TCP/IP. So, I think the same thing's going on here. You see some scalability around it to try to uncouple it, free it. >> Absolutely. And sustainability and accessibility to make it run faster and make it run on any deice that you want by any developer. So, that's the tagline. >> Luis Ceze, thanks for coming on. Professor. >> Thank you. >> I didn't know you were a professor. That's great to have you on. It was a masterclass in DevOps agility for machine learning. Thanks for coming on. Appreciate it. >> Thank you very much. Thank you. >> Congratulations, again. All right. OctoML here on theCube. Really important. Uncoupling the machine learning from the hardware specifically. That's only going to make space faster and safer, and more reliable. And that's where the whole theme of re:MARS is. Let's see how they fit in. I'm John for theCube. Thanks for watching. More coverage after this short break. >> Luis: Thank you. (gentle music)

(upbeat music) >> Hello and welcome to today's session of the 2021 AWS Global Public Sector Partner Awards Program. This session's award is going to be profiling the Most Customer Obsessed Mission-based Win in the education domain. I'm your host, Donald Klein, with theCUBE. And today we are joined by Fernando Castillo. He's the Business Development Manager at CloudHesive, and then also Luis Muñoz, who's the Information Director at the Unibersidad de Los Lagos. >> Okay, everyone. Welcome to today's session. All right. Fernando, thanks for taking some time out and joining us today. Wanted to start with you and wanted to hear a little bit of background about CloudHesive. Obviously, you're a company that had won an award last year, but you're back on this year, again. Want you give us some a little bit of the story of CloudHesive, and what kind of services you provide? (speaking in foreign language) >> Translator: Thank you very much, Donald. Yes, CloudHesive is a managed consulting service provider in the cloud. We are AWS Partner and since 2014 we have been providing solutions focusing on security, trustability, and scalability in the cloud. Accompany companies to their main objective, which is reducing operational costs and increasing their productivity as they move forward in the adaption of cloud services. >> Very good. Okay. And then Luis, I'm going to turn to you now, want you talk to us a little bit about your role there at the Unibersidad de Los Lagos, and how you started this project? (speaking in foreign language) >> Translator: Good afternoon. I belong to the academic department of the engineering department at the University of Los Lagos and the director of the IT of this school. For several years, for about five years, we've been analyzing the deployment of these automation at universities of Chile. Since it's not a common item in the country, we've done several benchmarking worldwide, especially in Spain, Mexico, Columbia, and places where it's more developed. And eventually, we have to take some demos that allowed us to make some decisions. This topic was not going to be considered in 2020, but it happened because of a political situation, social political in Chile in 2019. So we have to move forward the process, but we had already made a global analysis and this was one of the reasons why we have to get closer to AWS Partners and this allowed us to move this process forward within the university. >> Okay. Very good. All right. Well then, what I'm going to do now is I'm going to come back to you, Fernando, and I want you to talk a little bit about the overall goal of what you were trying to help the university with. (speaking in foreign language) >> Translator: Well, within the main objectives we had in the project was to have a platform that would support a concurrent load of thousands of students, especially in University of Los Lagos. They had requested to have around 15,000 students and the main complication or the main challenge was to keep a virtual attendance, which is now known as learning management system, but also having the possibility of having video classes in two days, something similar to what we are doing today, but with 50 or up to 100 students. This was one of the main objectives of the project. >> Okay, understood. So the goal is here to deploy this platform and open source platform and make it available for about 15,000 students. Okay. Now coming back to you, Luis, there was a time constraint here, correct? You needed to get the system going very quickly. Maybe you could explain why you needed to accelerate this program so quickly. (speaking in foreign language) >> Translator: Well, literally, the pandemic conditions in the country started to be more evident and more severe since the first week of March in 2020. And so we have to make the decision, the double-sided decision of choosing an infrastructure that we could not buy at that time, given the emergency, logistic emergency of the pandemic at the server's room and to keep a stable platform for that number of users, student and professors of university. So we started conversations to make this scale up and move everything to the cloud. This was the first decision. So we decided to use Amazon and with CloudHesive, we were able to organize the academics charter in the same platform. So as to move no longer than three weeks so that we could give classes, online classes with the students while we were learning this new normal, which was virtual distance education. This was very difficult of every morning, afternoon, and evening of work, but this allowed us not to fall behind in the first semester of the educational needs of the students. With this modality, we have around 5% more students that we used to last year in 2020, in March 2020. And this allowed us to have a more visible structure for those who were questioning this new modality and we were applied to take this new modality in the end. >> Okay. So because of the pandemic, you had to accelerate the deployment of this learning management system very quickly. And you had to learn how to manage the system at the same time that you were deploying it. Okay. Understood. So a lot of challenges there. All right. So then maybe coming back to you, Fernando. Wanted you talk about your role and how CloudHesive helped with this sort of this very rapid deployment of this LMS system. (speaking in foreign language) >> Translator: Well, talking about the challenges and how we were able to get to the objective, within the plan, deployment and development have to accompany the University of Los Lagos not only with the use of the platform, but also how to change management. One of the biggest challenges was to do a security audit, the deployment of scalable infrastructures. And one of the main topics was, one of the main challenges for CloudHesive that we can now talk about and obtained objective was to do the tests from the point of view of scalability and security getting into 15,000 students, concurrent students, stimulating the workload of the university, keeping 99.5 availability of the platform. Going back to the challenges, it's not only the scalability and stability. Nowadays, the University of Los Lagos platform can continue to grow, as Luis mentioned, without the need to look for new resources. But with our implementation, deployment and development, we already have a scalable resource as they increase the number of professors and students to their university. >> Okay. Understood, understood. Now, maybe talk a little bit just to continue with that point. Maybe talk for a minute about how you leverage the AWS platform in order to be able to accelerate this project. What aspects of your partnership with AWS enabled you to deploy the system so quickly? (speaking in foreign language) >> Translator: Well, talking about that, we based on a referential architecture of AWS, which is an open source middle platform, and within these competencies and within things, they belong to the education. We also have the problems, the presence of (indistinct), which allows us to deploy new solution and new integrations. So this allowed us as the team to, within weeks, to develop new features that would allow us to deal with each of the requirements of the universities, specifically. So within the first week, the University of Los Lagos had the connectivity with the academic sector. On the second week, they had the infrastructure to support out two-way videos. And on the third week, they already had the platform completely deployed with all the security safeguards that we already have in all of our products and services. So having worked hand-in-hand with AWS allowed us to have success in time with this platform. >> Wow. So that's fantastic. You were able to deploy this entire system from the connection with the academics to the video infrastructure to actually getting all the security implementations in place. You were able to do that in a three week cycle, is that correct? >> Yeah, that's correct. >> Fantastic. Okay. So Luis, coming back to you then, so working with CloudHesive as a partner to help deploy the platform on AWS gave you fantastic speed and agility to get the system working. Maybe talk a little bit now about the challenges of getting students and educators to adapt the system, and what kind of successes you had? (speaking in foreign language) >> Translator: First of all, they have to, we need to need to know the geography, the landscape of the university. The geography is very varied. We have mountains and lakes and so forth, and connectivity concepts are very difficult in this area. In addition, University of Los Lagos has the characteristic of receiving students from very poor sectors within the region. So this means that more than 80% have a free education, as there are few universities that exist in the country. So one of the technological challenges was for these students to receive the mechanisms and technology to have the connectivity they needed. After that, we had a very big training plan with the deployment company, CloudHesive, with the permissions, and eventually together, we were able to go beyond students and professors. And I remember we had 50% students and professors logged in to the platform, and nowadays, we have 100% students and professors logged in having classes in the platform. But most importantly, nowadays, we have an analytical control because of an integration with CloudHesive, with certain tools that allow us to gather data in real time. And we can do a follow-up of the student that is closer actually from the previous situation when we didn't have this technology. If the student is not logged in, we can reach them directly or indirectly to know, what is happening with his meeting, which is the kind of support, academic, social or economic support that they need. Before, it was harder to get this. So we have a communion between technology and social services that we can provide as a university. And of course, the adaptability of CloudHesive in as much as most of the requirements that we needed. So as to have a good response, they've been very providing, they provided a very robust service in this terms. >> Fantastic. So you were able to reach 100% percent of your target audience very quickly. Is that correct? Great. >> Yes. >> And maybe just to kind of follow up one more. Just talk a little bit about the future of your program. Now that you've worked so hard to establish the system and to connect your students and your teachers and to optimize the system, what is your plan to use it going forward? Are you looking to expand it? What would you say are your goals? (speaking in foreign language) >> Translator: First of all, for better or for worse, this modality came here to stay. The pandemic may end, but it generated opportunities that nationwide, it moved forward at least seven or eight times faster, these kinds of possibilities. So it's hard to use or waste this opportunity with the face-to-face classes. The university nowadays, thanks to the platform and the work done by CloudHesive and AWS, the university won ministry projects from the Ministry of Education in the country, have a strengthening plans for other kinds of services that were not incorporated before, like the idea of virtual library, research work, academic development work, of training and cultural transformation as well. But eventually, they are happening in this virtually environments. And the university won this possibility through the ministry, bridging the gap between the academic sector and the students. And in order to elaborate a little bit more from the previous question, we did a survey last year and ended not long ago. And most professors said that 80%, more than 80% said that the virtual environment was considered as good or very good. So we have a very good assessment in order to participate in this project that were won by the university and they are nowadays being applied. So this generates development in the academic sector, in research, in library, in content creation, global communication, working together with other universities with work postgraduate courses and other universities without the need of getting out of home. So this is a very competitive advantage that we didn't have before. And since 2020, we were able to develop. >> Fantastic. Well, congratulations on a really well put together program. And I'm excited to hear that you've won an award in your country and that you're planning to expand the system more broadly. I think that's a fantastic success story. So maybe just to wrap this up here with you Fernando, why don't you talk a little bit about, so obviously, you guys were very critical in helping this system be deployed very quickly, but very securely at the same time. How do you see your role going forward in enabling these types of situations, this distance learning type formats? (speaking in foreign language) >> Translator: Well, just as Luis said, taking this project with the University of Los Lagos, this showed the importance of looking at technological advances and to improve the universities and research centers and how to focus on innovation and bringing the future education down. For us, the data generated in this virtual interactions are very valuable and having a clear perspective, so as to organize this data for, to make more effective decisions that allow us to act in real time. This is what we are focusing on right now. So as to keep, I mean, prove, and being able to provide new tools, the research centers and universities to operate quickly, safely, and cost effectively. >> Okay, fantastic. So really, the real lesson learned here is by working with a partner like yourself, you were able take an open source learning management system and then deploy it very quickly, manage it, and then secure it in a way that allowed the university then to do their work. So I think that's a really great end-to-end delivery story. So I think, maybe if you want to make one last comment, Fernando, about your role in any kind of future expansion for this type of work. (speaking in foreign language) >> Translator: Yes, of course. I would like to thank Amazon and University of Los Lagos, of course for giving us the chance to work together and develop this project successfully. And answering your question, I would like to say that this is a good incentive to build more robust solutions, as long as we have our focus on our clients, when working and as a final comment, I would just would like to thank you and hope to see you again with a new project. >> Okay, well, congratulations to you both on winning this award. And for CloudHesive, this is your second year in a row of winning a Public Sector Award. So with that, I'm going to sign off today and I'm going to thank you both for attending. Today, we've had Fernando Castillo, the Business Development Manager from CloudHesive and then Luis Muñoz, the Information Director at the Uniberisdad de Los Lagos, and thank you both for attending. This is Donald Klein for theCUBE, until next time. (bright music)

(upbeat music) Developers have become the new king makers in the world of digital and cloud. The rise of containers and microservices has accelerated the transition to cloud native applications. A lot of people will talk about application architecture and the related paradigms and the benefits they bring for the process of writing and delivering new apps. But a major challenge continues to be, the how and the what when it comes to accessing, processing and getting insights from the massive amounts of data that we have to deal with in today's world. And with me are two experts from the data management world who will share with us how they think about the best techniques and practices based on what they see at large organizations who are working with data and developing so-called data-driven apps. Please welcome Maria Colgan and Gerald Venzl, two distinguish product managers from Oracle. Folks, welcome, thanks so much for coming on. >> Thanks for having us Dave. >> Thank you very much for having us. >> Okay, Maria let's start with you. So, we throw around this term data-driven, data-driven applications. What are we really talking about there? >> So data-driven applications are applications that work on a diverse set of data. So anything from spatial to sensor data, document data as well as your usual transaction processing data. And what they're going to do is they'll generate value from that data in very different ways to a traditional application. So for example, they may use machine learning, they are able to do product recommendations in the middle of a transaction. Or we could use graph to be able to identify an influencer within the community so we can target them with a specific promotion. It could also use spatial data to be able to help find the nearest stores to a particular customer. And because these apps are deployed on multiple platforms, everything from mobile devices as well as standard browsers, they need a data platform that's going to be both secure, reliable and scalable. >> Well, so when you think about how the workloads are shifting I mean, we're not talking about, you know it's not anymore a world of just your ERP or your HCM or your CRM, you know kind of the traditional operational systems. You really are seeing an explosion of these new data oriented apps. You're seeing, you know, modeling in the cloud, you are going to see more and more inferencing, inferencing at the edge. But Maria maybe you could talk a little bit about sort of the benefits that customers are seeing from developing these types of applications. I mean, why should people care about data-driven apps? >> Oh, for sure, there's massive benefits to them. I mean, probably the most obvious one for any business regardless of the industry, is that they not only allow you to understand what your customers are up to, but they allow you to be able to anticipate those customer's needs. So that helps businesses maintain that competitive edge and retain their customers. But it also helps them make data-driven decisions in real time based on actual data rather than on somebody's gut feeling or basing those decisions on historical data. So for example, you can do real-time price adjustments on products based on demand and so forth, that kind of thing. So it really changes the way people do business today. >> So Gerald, you think about the narrative in the industry everybody wants to be a platform player all your customers they are becoming software companies, they are becoming platform players. Everybody wants to be like, you know name a company that is huge trillion dollar market cap or whatever, and those are data-driven companies. And so it would seem to me that data-driven applications, there's nobody, no company really shouldn't be data-driven. Do you buy that? >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean, data-driven, and that naturally the whole industry is data-driven, right? It's like we all have information technologies about processing data and deriving information out of it. But when it comes to app development I think there is a big push to kind of like we have to do machine learning in our applications, we have to get insights from data. And when you actually look back a bit and take a step back, you see that there's of course many different kinds of applications out there as well that's not to be forgotten, right? So there is a usual front end user interfaces where really the application all it does is just entering some piece of information that's stored somewhere or perhaps a microservice that's not attached to a data to you at all but just receives or asks calls (indistinct). So I think it's not necessarily so important for every developer to kind of go on a bandwagon that they have to be data-driven. But I think it's equally important for those applications and those developers that build applications, that drive the business, that make business critical decisions as Maria mentioned before. Those guys should take really a close look into what data-driven apps means and what the data to you can actually give to them. Because what we see also happening a lot is that a lot of the things that are well known and out there just ready to use are being reimplemented in the applications. And for those applications, they essentially just ended up spending more time writing codes that will be already there and then have to maintain and debug the code as well rather than just going to market faster. >> Gerald can you talk to the prevailing approaches that developers take to build data-driven applications? What are the ones that you see? Let's dig into that a little bit more and maybe differentiate the different approaches and talk about that? >> Yeah, absolutely. I think right now the industry is like in two camps, it's like sort of a religious war going on that you'll see often happening with different architectures and so forth going on. So we have single purpose databases or data management technologies. Which are technologies that are as the name suggests build around a single purpose. So it's like, you know a typical example would be your ordinary key-value store. And a key-value store all it does is it allows you to store and retrieve a piece of data whatever that may be really, really fast but it doesn't really go beyond that. And then the other side of the house or the other camp would be multimodal databases, multimodal data management technologies. Those are technologies that allow you to store different types of data, different formats of data in the same technology in the same system alongside. And, you know, when you look at the geographics out there of what we have from technology, is pretty much any relational database or any database really has evolved into such a multimodal database. Whether that's MySQL that allows you to store or chase them alongside relational or even a MongoDB that allows you to do or gives you native graph support since (mumbles) and as well alongside the adjacent support. >> Well, it's clearly a trend in the industry. We've talked about this a lot in The Cube. We know where Oracle stands on this. I mean, you just mentioned MySQL but I mean, Oracle Databases you've been extending, you've mentioned JSON, we've got blockchain now in there you're infusing, you know ML and AI into the database, graph database capabilities, you know on and on and on. We talked a lot about we compared that to Amazon which is kind of the right tool, the right job approach. So maybe you could talk about, you know, your point of view, the benefits for developers of using that converged database if I can use that word approach being able to store multiple data formats? Why do you feel like that's a better approach? >> Yeah, I think on a high level it comes down to complexity. You are actually avoiding additional complexity, right? So not every use case that you have necessarily warrants to have yet another data management technology or yet the special build technology for managing that data, right? It's like many use cases that we see out there happily want to just store a piece of a chase and document, a piece of chase in a database and then perhaps retrieve it again afterwards so write some simple queries over it. And you really don't have to get a new database technology or a NoSQL database into the mix if you already have some to just fulfill that exact use case. You could just happily store that information as well in the database you already have. And what it really comes down to is the learning curve for developers, right? So it's like, as you use the same technology to store other types of data, you don't have to learn a new technology, you don't have to associate yourself with new and learn new drivers. You don't have to find new frameworks and you don't have to know how to necessarily operate or best model your data for that database. You can essentially just reuse your knowledge of the technology as well as the libraries and code you have already built in house perhaps in another application, perhaps, you know framework that you used against the same technology because it is still the same technology. So, kind of all comes down again to avoiding complexity rather than not fragmenting you know, the many different technologies we have. If you were to look at the different data formats that are out there today it's like, you know, you would end up with many different databases just to store them if you were to fully religiously follow the single purpose best built technology for every use case paradigm, right? And then you would just end up having to manage many different databases more than actually focusing on your app and getting value to your business or to your user. >> Okay, so I get that and I buy that by the way. I mean, especially if you're a larger organization and you've got all these projects going on but before we go back to Maria, Gerald, I want to just, I want to push on that a little bit. Because the counter to that argument would be in the analogy. And I wonder if you, I'd love for you to, you know knock this analogy off the blocks. The counter would be okay, Oracle is the Swiss Army knife and it's got, you know, all in one. But sometimes I need that specialized long screwdriver and I go into my toolbox and I grab that. It's better than the screwdriver in my Swiss Army knife. Why, are you the Swiss Army knife of databases? Or are you the all-in-one have that best of breed screwdriver for me? How do you think about that? >> Yeah, that's a fantastic question, right? And I think it's first of all, you have to separate between Oracle the company that has actually multiple data management technologies and databases out there as you said before, right? And Oracle Database. And I think Oracle Database is definitely a Swiss Army knife has many capabilities of since the last 40 years, you know that we've seen object support coming that's still in the Oracle Database today. We have seen XML coming, it's still in the Oracle Database, graph, spatial, et cetera. And so you have many different ways of managing your data and then on top of that going into the converge, not only do we allow you to store the different data model in there but we actually allow you also to, you apply all the security policies and so forth on top of it something Maria can talk more about the mission around converged database. I would also argue though that for some aspects, we do actually have to or add a screwdriver that you talked about as well. So especially in the relational world people get very quickly hung up on this idea that, oh, if you only do rows and columns, well, that's kind of what you put down on disk. And that was never true, it's the relational model is actually a logical model. What's probably being put down on disk is blocks that align themselves nice with block storage and always has been. So that allows you to actually model and process the data sort of differently. And one common example or one good example that we have that we introduced a couple of years ago was when, column and databases were very strong and you know, the competition came it's like, yeah, we have In-Memory column that stores now they're so much better. And we were like, well, orienting the data role-based or column-based really doesn't matter in the sense that we store them as blocks on disks. And so we introduced the in memory technology which gives you an In-Memory column, a representation of your data as well alongside your relational. So there is an example where you go like, well, actually you know, if you have this use case of the column or analytics all In-Memory, I would argue Oracle Database is also that screwdriver you want to go down to and gives you that capability. Because not only gives you representation in columnar, but also which many people then forget all the analytic power on top of SQL. It's one thing to store your data columnar, it's a completely different story to actually be able to run analytics on top of that and having all the built-in functionalities and stuff that you want to do with the data on top of it as you analyze it. >> You know, that's a great example, the kilometer 'cause I remember there was like a lot of hype around it. Oh, it's the Oracle killer, you know, at Vertica. Vertica is still around but, you know it never really hit escape velocity. But you know, good product, good company, whatever. Natezza, it kind of got buried inside of IBM. ParXL kind of became, you know, red shift with that deal so that kind of went away. Teradata bought a company, I forget which company it bought but. So that hype kind of disapated and now it's like, oh yeah, columnar. It's kind of like In-Memory, we've had a In-Memory databases ever since we've had databases you know, it's a kind of a feature not a sector. But anyway, Maria, let's come back to you. You've got a lot of customer experience. And you speak with a lot of companies, you know during your time at Oracle. What else are you seeing in terms of the benefits to this approach that might not be so intuitive and obvious right away? >> I think one of the biggest benefits to having a multimodel multiworkload or as we call it a converged database, is the fact that you can get greater data synergy from it. In other words, you can utilize all these different techniques and data models to get better value out of that data. So things like being able to do real-time machine learning, fraud detection inside a transaction or being able to do a product recommendation by accessing three different data models. So for example, if I'm trying to recommend a product for you Dave, I might use graph analytics to be able to figure out your community. Not just your friends, but other people on our system who look and behave just like you. Once I know that community then I can go over and see what products they bought by looking up our product catalog which may be stored as JSON. And then on top of that I can then see using the key-value what products inside that catalog those community members gave a five star rating to. So that way I can really pinpoint the right product for you. And I can do all of that in one transaction inside the database without having to transform that data into different models or God forbid, access different systems to be able to get all of that information. So it really simplifies how we can generate that value from the data. And of course, the other thing our customers love is when it comes to deploying data-driven apps, when you do it on a converged database it's much simpler because it is that standard data platform. So you're not having to manage multiple independent single purpose databases. You're not having to implement the security and the high availability policies, you know across a bunch of different diverse platforms. All of that can be done much simpler with a converged database 'cause the DBA team of course, is going to just use that standard set of tools to manage, monitor and secure those systems. >> Thank you for that. And you know, it's interesting, you talk about simplification and you are in Juan's organization so you've big focus on mission critical. And so one of the things that I think is often overlooked well, we talk about all the time is recovery. And if things are simpler, recovery is faster and easier. And so it's kind of the hallmark of Oracle is like the gold standard of the toughest apps, the most mission critical apps. But I wanted to get to the cloud Maria. So because everything is going to the cloud, right? Not all workloads are going to the cloud but everybody is talking about the cloud. Everybody has cloud first mentality and so yes, it's a hybrid world. But the natural next question is how do you think the cloud fits into this world of data-driven apps? >> I think just like any app that you're developing, the cloud helps to accelerate that development. And of course the deployment of these data-driven applications. 'Cause if you think about it, the developer is instantly able to provision a converged database that Oracle will automatically manage and look after for them. But what's great about doing something like that if you use like our autonomous database service is that it comes in different flavors. So you can get autonomous transaction processing, data warehousing or autonomous JSON so that the developer is going to get a database that's been optimized for their specific use case, whatever they are trying to solve. And it's also going to contain all of that great functionality and capabilities that we've been talking about. So what that really means to the developer though is as the project evolves and inevitably the business needs change a little, there's no need to panic when one of those changes comes in because your converged database or your autonomous database has all of those additional capabilities. So you can simply utilize those to able to address those evolving changes in the project. 'Cause let's face it, none of us normally know exactly what we need to build right at the very beginning. And on top of that they also kind of get a built-in buddy in the cloud, especially in the autonomous database. And that buddy comes in the form of built-in workload optimizations. So with the autonomous database we do things like automatic indexing where we're using machine learning to be that buddy for the developer. So what it'll do is it'll monitor the workload and see what kind of queries are being run on that system. And then it will actually determine if there are indexes that should be built to help improve the performance of that application. And not only does it bill those indexes but it verifies that they help improve the performance before publishing it to the application. So by the time the developer is finished with that app and it's ready to be deployed, it's actually also been optimized by the developers buddy, the Oracle autonomous database. So, you know, it's a really nice helping hand for developers when they're building any app especially data-driven apps. >> I like how you sort of gave us, you know the truth here is you don't always know where you're going when you're building an app. It's like it goes from you are trying to build it and they will come to start building it and we'll figure out where it's going to go. With Agile that's kind of how it works. But so I wonder, can you give some examples of maybe customers or maybe genericize them if you need to. Data-driven apps in the cloud where customers were able to drive more efficiency, where the cloud buddy allowed the customers to do more with less? >> No, we have tons of these but I'll try and keep it to just a couple. One that comes to mind straight away is retrace. These folks built a blockchain app in the Oracle Cloud that allows manufacturers to actually share the supply chain with the consumer. So the consumer can see exactly, who made their product? Using what raw materials? Where they were sourced from? How it was done? All of that is visible to the consumer. And in order to be able to share that they had to work on a very diverse set of data. So they had everything from JSON documents to images as well as your traditional transactions in there. And they store all of that information inside the Oracle autonomous database, they were able to build their app and deploy it on the cloud. And they were able to do all of that very, very quickly. So, you know, that ability to work on multiple different data types in a single database really helped them build that product and get it to market in a very short amount of time. Another customer that's doing something really, really interesting is MindSense. So these guys operate the largest mines in Canada, Chile, and Peru. But what they do is they put these x-ray devices on the massive mechanical shovels that are at the cove or at the mine face. And what that does is it senses the contents of the buckets inside these mining machines. And it's looking to see at that content, to see how it can optimize the processing of the ore inside in that bucket. So they're looking to minimize the amount of power and water that it's going to take to process that. And also of course, minimize the amount of waste that's going to come out of that project. So all of that sensor data is sent into an autonomous database where it's going to be processed by a whole host of different users. So everything from the mine engineers to the geo scientists, to even their own data scientists utilize that data to drive their business forward. And what I love about these guys is they're not happy with building just one app. MindSense actually use our built-in low core development environment, APEX that comes as part of the autonomous database and they actually produce applications constantly for different aspects of their business using that technology. And it's actually able to accelerate those new apps to the business. It takes them now just a couple of days or weeks to produce an app instead of months or years to build those new apps. >> Great, thank you for that Maria. Gerald, I'm going to push you again. So, I said upfront and talked about microservices and the cloud and containers and you know, anybody in the developer space follows that very closely. But some of the things that we've been talking about here people might look at that and say, well, they're kind of antithetical to microservices. This is our Oracles monolithic approach. But when you think about the benefits of microservices, people want freedom of choice, technology choice, seen as a big advantage of microservices and containers. How do you address such an argument? >> Yeah, that's an excellent question and I get that quite often. The microservices architecture in general as I said before had architectures, Linux distributions, et cetera. It's kind of always a bit of like there's an academic approach and there's a pragmatic approach. And when you look at the microservices the original definitions that came out at the early 2010s. They actually never said that each microservice has to have a database. And they also never said that if a microservice has a database, you have to use a different technology for each microservice. Just like they never said, you have to write a microservice in a different programming language, right? So where I'm going with this is like, yes you know, sometimes when you look at some vendors out there, some niche players, they push this message or they jump on this academic approach of like each microservice has the best tool at hand or I'd use a different database for your purpose, et cetera. Which almost often comes across like us. You know, we want to stay part of the conversation. Nothing stops a developer from, you know using a multimodal database for the microservice and just using that as a document store, right? Or just using that as a relational database. And, you know, sometimes I mean, it was actually something that happened that was really interesting yesterday I don't know whether you follow Dave or not. But Facebook had an outage yesterday, right? And Facebook is one of those companies that are seen as the Silicon Valley, you know know how to do microservices companies. And when you add through the outage, well, what happened, right? Some unfortunate logical error with configuration as a force that took a database cluster down. So, you know, there you have it where you go like, well, maybe not every microservice is actually in fact talking to its own database or its own special purpose database. I think there, you know, well, what we should, the industry should be focusing much more on this argument of which technology to use? What's the right tool for a job? Is more to ask themselves, what business problem actually are we trying to solve? And therefore what's the right approach and the right technology for this. And so therefore, just as I said before, you know multimodal databases they do have strong benefits. They have many built-in functionalities that are already there and they allow you to reduce this complexity of having to know many different technologies, right? And so it's not only to store different data models either you know, treat a multimodal database as a chasing documents store or a relational database but most databases are multimodal since 20 plus years. But it's also actually being able to perhaps if you store that data together, you can perhaps actually derive additional value for somebody else but perhaps not for your application. But like for example, if you were to use Oracle Database you can actually write queries on top of all of that data. It doesn't really matter for our query engine whether it's the data is format that then chase or the data is formatted in rows and columns you can just rather than query over it. And that's actually very powerful for those guys that have to, you know get the reporting done the end of the day, the end of the week. And for those guys that are the data scientists that they want to figure out, you know which product performed really well or can we tweak something here and there. When you look into that space you still see a huge divergence between the guys to put data in kind of the altarpiece style and guys that try to derive new insights. And there's still a lot of ETL going around and, you know we have big data technologies that some of them come and went and some of them came in that are still around like Apache Spark which is still like a SQL engine on top of any of your data kind of going back to the same concept. And so I will say that, you know, for developers when we look at microservices it's like, first of all, is the argument you were making because the vendor or the technology you want to use tells you this argument or, you know, you kind of want to have an argument to use a specific technology? Or is it really more because it is the best technology, to best use for this given use case for this given application that you have? And if so there's of course, also nothing wrong to use a single purpose technology either, right? >> Yeah, I mean, whenever I talk about Oracle I always come back to the most important applications, the mission critical. It's very difficult to architect databases with microservices and containers. You have to be really, really careful. And so and again, it comes back to what we were talking before about with Maria that the complexity and the recovery. But Gerald I want to stay with you for a minute. So there's other data management technologies popping out there. I mean, I've seen some people saying, okay just leave the data in an S3 bucket. We can query that, then we've got some magic sauce to do that. And so why are you optimistic about you know, traditional database technology going forward? >> I would say because of the history of databases. So one thing that once struck me when I came to Oracle and then got to meet great people like Juan Luis and Andy Mendelsohn who had been here for a long, long time. I come to realization that relational databases are around for about 45 years now. And, you know, I was like, I'm too young to have been around then, right? So I was like, what else was around 45 years? It's like just the tech stack that we have today. It's like, how does this look like? Well, Linux only came out in 93. Well, databases pre-date Linux a lot rather than as I started digging I saw a lot of technologies come and go, right? And you mentioned before like the technologies that data management systems that we had that came and went like the columnar databases or XML databases, object databases. And even before relational databases before Cot gave us the relational model there were apparently these networks stores network databases which to some extent look very similar to adjacent documents. There wasn't a harder storing data and a hierarchy to format. And, you know when you then start actually reading the Cot paper and diving a little bit more into the relation model, that's I think one important crux in there that most of the industry keeps forgetting or it hasn't been around to even know. And that is that when Cot created the relational model, he actually focused not so much on the application putting the data in, but on future users and applications still being able to making sense out of the data, right? And that's kind of like I said before we had those network models, we had XML databases you have adjacent documents stores. And the one thing that they all have along with it is like the application that puts the data in decides the structure of the data. And that's all well and good if you had an application of the developer writing an application. It can become really tricky when 10 years later you still want to look at that data and the application that the developer is no longer around then you go like, what does this all mean? Where is the structure defined? What is this attribute? What does it mean? How does it correlate to others? And the one thing that people tend to forget is that it's actually the data that's here to stay not someone who does the applications where it is. Ideally, every company wants to store every single byte of data that they have because there might be future value in it. Economically may not make sense that's now much more feasible than just years ago. But if you could, why wouldn't you want to store all your data, right? And sometimes you actually have to store the data for seven years or whatever because the laws require you to. And so coming back then and you know, like 10 years from now and looking at the data and going like making sense of that data can actually become a lot more difficult and a lot more challenging than having to first figure out and how we store this data for general use. And that kind of was what the relational model was all about. We decompose the data structures into tables and columns with relationships amongst each other so therefore between each other. So that therefore if somebody wants to, you know typical example would be well you store some purchases from your web store, right? There's a customer attribute in it. There's some credit card payment information in it, just some product information on what the customer bought. Well, in the relational model if you just want to figure out which products were sold on a given day or week, you just would query the payment and products table to get the sense out of it. You don't need to touch the customer and so forth. And with the hierarchical model you have to first sit down and understand how is the structure, what is the customer? Where is the payment? You know, does the document start with the payment or does it start with the customer? Where do I find this information? And then in the very early days those databases even struggled to then not having to scan all the documents to get the data out. So coming back to your question a bit, I apologize for going on here. But you know, it's like relational databases have been around for 45 years. I actually argue it's one of the most successful software technologies that we have out there when you look in the overall industry, right? 45 years is like, in IT terms it's like from a star being the ones who are going supernova. You have said it before that many technologies coming and went, right? And just want to add a more really interesting example by the way is Hadoop and HDFS, right? They kind of gave us this additional promise of like, you know, the 2010s like 2012, 2013 the hype of Hadoop and so forth and (mumbles) and HDFS. And people are just like, just put everything into HDFS and worry about the data later, right? And we can query it and map reduce it and whatever. And we had customers actually coming to us they were like, great we have half a petabyte of data on an HDFS cluster and we have no clue what's stored in there. How do we figure this out? What are we going to do now? Now you had a big data cleansing problem. And so I think that is why databases and also data modeling is something that will not go away anytime soon. And I think databases and database technologies are here for quite a while to stay. Because many of those are people they don't think about what's happening to the data five years from now. And many of the niche players also and also frankly even Amazon you know, following with this single purpose thing is like, just use the right tool for the job for your application, right? Just pull in the data there the way you wanted. And it's like, okay, so you use technologies all over the place and then five years from now you have your data fragmented everywhere in different formats and, you know inconsistencies, and, and, and. And those are usually when you come back to this data-driven business critical business decision applications the worst case scenario you can have, right? Because now you need an army of people to actually do data cleansing. And there's not a coincidence that data science has become very, very popular the last recent years as we kind of went on with this proliferation of different database or data management technologies some of those are not even database. But I think I leave it at that. >> It's an interesting talk track because you're right. I mean, no schema on right was alluring, but it definitely created some problems. It also created an entire, you know you referenced the hyper specialized roles and did the data cleansing component. I mean, maybe technology will eventually solve that problem but it hasn't up at least up tonight. Okay, last question, Maria maybe you could start off and Gerald if you want to chime in as well it'd be great. I mean, it's interesting to watch this industry when Oracle sort of won the top database mantle. I mean, I watched it, I saw it. It was, remember it was Informix and it was (indistinct) too and of course, Microsoft you got to give them credit with SQL server, but Oracle won the database wars. And then everything got kind of quiet for awhile database was sort of boring. And then it exploded, you know, all the, you know not only SQL and the key-value stores and the cloud databases and this is really a hot area now. And when we looked at Oracle we said, okay, Oracle it's all about Oracle Database, but we've seen the kind of resurgence in MySQL which everybody thought, you know once Oracle bought Sun they were going to kill MySQL. But now we see you investing in HeatWave, TimesTen, we talked about In-Memory databases before. So where do those fit in Maria in the grand scheme? How should we think about Oracle's database portfolio? >> So there's lots of places where you'd use those different things. 'Cause just like any other industry there are going to be new and boutique use cases that are going to benefit from a more specialized product or single purpose product. So good examples off the top of my head of the kind of systems that would benefit from that would be things like a stock exchange system or a telephone exchange system. Both of those are latency critical transaction processing applications where they need microsecond response times. And that's going to exceed perhaps what you might normally get or deploy with a converged database. And so Oracle's TimesTen database our In-Memory database is perfect for those kinds of applications. But there's also a host of MySQL applications out there today and you said it yourself there Dave, HeatWave is a great place to provision and deploy those kinds of applications because it's going to run 100 times faster than AWS (mumbles). So, you know, there really is a place in the market and in our customer's systems and the needs they have for all of these different members of our database family here at Oracle. >> Yeah, well, the internet is basically running in the lamp stack so I see MySQL going away. All right Gerald, will give you the final word, bring us home. >> Oh, thank you very much. Yeah, I mean, as Maria said, I think it comes back to what we discussed before. There is obviously still needs for special technologies or different technologies than a relational database or multimodal database. Oracle has actually many more databases that people may first think of. Not only the three that we have already mentioned but there's even SP so the Oracle's NoSQL database. And, you know, on a high level Oracle is a data management company, right? And we want to give our customers the best tools and the best technology to manage all of their data. Rather than therefore there has to be a need or there should be a part of the business that also focuses on this highly specialized systems and this highly specialized technologies that address those use cases. And I think it makes perfect sense. It's like, you know, when the customer comes to Oracle they're not only getting this, take this one product you know, and if you don't like it your problem but actually you have choice, right? And choice allows you to make a decision based on what's best for you and not necessarily best for the vendor you're talking to. >> Well guys, really appreciate your time today and your insights. Maria, Gerald, thanks so much for coming on The Cube. >> Thank you very much for having us. >> And thanks for watching this Cube conversation this is Dave Vellante and we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> It'll be five, four, three and then silent two, one, and then you guys just follow my lead. We're just making some last minute adjustments. Like I said, we're down two hands today. So, you good Alex? Okay, are you guys ready? >> I'm ready. >> Ready. >> I got to get get one note here. >> So I noticed Maria you stopped anyway, so I have time. >> Just so they know Dave and the Boston Studio, are they both kind of concurrently be on film even when they're not speaking or will only the speaker be on film for like if Gerald's drawing while Maria is talking about-- >> Sorry but then I missed one part of my onboarding spiel. There should be, if you go into gallery there should be a label. There should be something labeled Boston live switch feed. If you pin that gallery view you'll see what our program currently being recorded is. So any time you don't see yourself on that feed is an excellent time to take a drink of water, scratch your nose, check your notes. Do whatever you got to do off screen. >> Can you give us a three shot, Alex? >> Yes, there it is. >> And then go to me, just give me a one-shot to Dave. So when I'm here you guys can take a drink or whatever >> That makes sense? >> Yeah. >> Excellent, I will get my recordings restarted and we'll open up when Dave's ready. >> All right, you guys ready? >> Ready. >> All right Steve, you go on mute. >> Okay, on me in 5, 4, 3. Developers have become the new king makers in the world of digital and cloud. The rise of containers and microservices has accelerated the transition to cloud native applications. A lot of people will talk about application architecture and the related paradigms and the benefits they bring for the process of writing and delivering new apps. But a major challenge continues to be, the how and the what when it comes to accessing, processing and getting insights from the massive amounts of data that we have to deal with in today's world. And with me are two experts from the data management world who will share with us how they think about the best techniques and practices based on what they see at large organizations who are working with data and developing so-called data-driven apps. Please welcome Maria Colgan and Gerald Venzl, two distinguish product managers from Oracle. Folks, welcome, thanks so much for coming on. >> Thanks for having us Dave. >> Thank you very much for having us. >> Okay, Maria let's start with you. So, we throw around this term data-driven, data-driven applications. What are we really talking about there? >> So data-driven applications are applications that work on a diverse set of data. So anything from spatial to sensor data, document data as well as your usual transaction processing data. And what they're going to do is they'll generate value from that data in very different ways to a traditional application. So for example, they may use machine learning, they are able to do product recommendations in the middle of a transaction. Or we could use graph to be able to identify an influencer within the community so we can target them with a specific promotion. It could also use spatial data to be able to help find the nearest stores to a particular customer. And because these apps are deployed on multiple platforms, everything from mobile devices as well as standard browsers, they need a data platform that's going to be both secure, reliable and scalable. >> Well, so when you think about how the workloads are shifting I mean, we're not talking about, you know it's not anymore a world of just your ERP or your HCM or your CRM, you know kind of the traditional operational systems. You really are seeing an explosion of these new data oriented apps. You're seeing, you know, modeling in the cloud, you are going to see more and more inferencing, inferencing at the edge. But Maria maybe you could talk a little bit about sort of the benefits that customers are seeing from developing these types of applications. I mean, why should people care about data-driven apps? >> Oh, for sure, there's massive benefits to them. I mean, probably the most obvious one for any business regardless of the industry, is that they not only allow you to understand what your customers are up to, but they allow you to be able to anticipate those customer's needs. So that helps businesses maintain that competitive edge and retain their customers. But it also helps them make data-driven decisions in real time based on actual data rather than on somebody's gut feeling or basing those decisions on historical data. So for example, you can do real-time price adjustments on products based on demand and so forth, that kind of thing. So it really changes the way people do business today. >> So Gerald, you think about the narrative in the industry everybody wants to be a platform player all your customers they are becoming software companies, they are becoming platform players. Everybody wants to be like, you know name a company that is huge trillion dollar market cap or whatever, and those are data-driven companies. And so it would seem to me that data-driven applications, there's nobody, no company really shouldn't be data-driven. Do you buy that? >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean, data-driven, and that naturally the whole industry is data-driven, right? It's like we all have information technologies about processing data and deriving information out of it. But when it comes to app development I think there is a big push to kind of like we have to do machine learning in our applications, we have to get insights from data. And when you actually look back a bit and take a step back, you see that there's of course many different kinds of applications out there as well that's not to be forgotten, right? So there is a usual front end user interfaces where really the application all it does is just entering some piece of information that's stored somewhere or perhaps a microservice that's not attached to a data to you at all but just receives or asks calls (indistinct). So I think it's not necessarily so important for every developer to kind of go on a bandwagon that they have to be data-driven. But I think it's equally important for those applications and those developers that build applications, that drive the business, that make business critical decisions as Maria mentioned before. Those guys should take really a close look into what data-driven apps means and what the data to you can actually give to them. Because what we see also happening a lot is that a lot of the things that are well known and out there just ready to use are being reimplemented in the applications. And for those applications, they essentially just ended up spending more time writing codes that will be already there and then have to maintain and debug the code as well rather than just going to market faster. >> Gerald can you talk to the prevailing approaches that developers take to build data-driven applications? What are the ones that you see? Let's dig into that a little bit more and maybe differentiate the different approaches and talk about that? >> Yeah, absolutely. I think right now the industry is like in two camps, it's like sort of a religious war going on that you'll see often happening with different architectures and so forth going on. So we have single purpose databases or data management technologies. Which are technologies that are as the name suggests build around a single purpose. So it's like, you know a typical example would be your ordinary key-value store. And a key-value store all it does is it allows you to store and retrieve a piece of data whatever that may be really, really fast but it doesn't really go beyond that. And then the other side of the house or the other camp would be multimodal databases, multimodal data management technologies. Those are technologies that allow you to store different types of data, different formats of data in the same technology in the same system alongside. And, you know, when you look at the geographics out there of what we have from technology, is pretty much any relational database or any database really has evolved into such a multimodal database. Whether that's MySQL that allows you to store or chase them alongside relational or even a MongoDB that allows you to do or gives you native graph support since (mumbles) and as well alongside the adjacent support. >> Well, it's clearly a trend in the industry. We've talked about this a lot in The Cube. We know where Oracle stands on this. I mean, you just mentioned MySQL but I mean, Oracle Databases you've been extending, you've mentioned JSON, we've got blockchain now in there you're infusing, you know ML and AI into the database, graph database capabilities, you know on and on and on. We talked a lot about we compared that to Amazon which is kind of the right tool, the right job approach. So maybe you could talk about, you know, your point of view, the benefits for developers of using that converged database if I can use that word approach being able to store multiple data formats? Why do you feel like that's a better approach? >> Yeah, I think on a high level it comes down to complexity. You are actually avoiding additional complexity, right? So not every use case that you have necessarily warrants to have yet another data management technology or yet the special build technology for managing that data, right? It's like many use cases that we see out there happily want to just store a piece of a chase and document, a piece of chase in a database and then perhaps retrieve it again afterwards so write some simple queries over it. And you really don't have to get a new database technology or a NoSQL database into the mix if you already have some to just fulfill that exact use case. You could just happily store that information as well in the database you already have. And what it really comes down to is the learning curve for developers, right? So it's like, as you use the same technology to store other types of data, you don't have to learn a new technology, you don't have to associate yourself with new and learn new drivers. You don't have to find new frameworks and you don't have to know how to necessarily operate or best model your data for that database. You can essentially just reuse your knowledge of the technology as well as the libraries and code you have already built in house perhaps in another application, perhaps, you know framework that you used against the same technology because it is still the same technology. So, kind of all comes down again to avoiding complexity rather than not fragmenting you know, the many different technologies we have. If you were to look at the different data formats that are out there today it's like, you know, you would end up with many different databases just to store them if you were to fully religiously follow the single purpose best built technology for every use case paradigm, right? And then you would just end up having to manage many different databases more than actually focusing on your app and getting value to your business or to your user. >> Okay, so I get that and I buy that by the way. I mean, especially if you're a larger organization and you've got all these projects going on but before we go back to Maria, Gerald, I want to just, I want to push on that a little bit. Because the counter to that argument would be in the analogy. And I wonder if you, I'd love for you to, you know knock this analogy off the blocks. The counter would be okay, Oracle is the Swiss Army knife and it's got, you know, all in one. But sometimes I need that specialized long screwdriver and I go into my toolbox and I grab that. It's better than the screwdriver in my Swiss Army knife. Why, are you the Swiss Army knife of databases? Or are you the all-in-one have that best of breed screwdriver for me? How do you think about that? >> Yeah, that's a fantastic question, right? And I think it's first of all, you have to separate between Oracle the company that has actually multiple data management technologies and databases out there as you said before, right? And Oracle Database. And I think Oracle Database is definitely a Swiss Army knife has many capabilities of since the last 40 years, you know that we've seen object support coming that's still in the Oracle Database today. We have seen XML coming, it's still in the Oracle Database, graph, spatial, et cetera. And so you have many different ways of managing your data and then on top of that going into the converge, not only do we allow you to store the different data model in there but we actually allow you also to, you apply all the security policies and so forth on top of it something Maria can talk more about the mission around converged database. I would also argue though that for some aspects, we do actually have to or add a screwdriver that you talked about as well. So especially in the relational world people get very quickly hung up on this idea that, oh, if you only do rows and columns, well, that's kind of what you put down on disk. And that was never true, it's the relational model is actually a logical model. What's probably being put down on disk is blocks that align themselves nice with block storage and always has been. So that allows you to actually model and process the data sort of differently. And one common example or one good example that we have that we introduced a couple of years ago was when, column and databases were very strong and you know, the competition came it's like, yeah, we have In-Memory column that stores now they're so much better. And we were like, well, orienting the data role-based or column-based really doesn't matter in the sense that we store them as blocks on disks. And so we introduced the in memory technology which gives you an In-Memory column, a representation of your data as well alongside your relational. So there is an example where you go like, well, actually you know, if you have this use case of the column or analytics all In-Memory, I would argue Oracle Database is also that screwdriver you want to go down to and gives you that capability. Because not only gives you representation in columnar, but also which many people then forget all the analytic power on top of SQL. It's one thing to store your data columnar, it's a completely different story to actually be able to run analytics on top of that and having all the built-in functionalities and stuff that you want to do with the data on top of it as you analyze it. >> You know, that's a great example, the kilometer 'cause I remember there was like a lot of hype around it. Oh, it's the Oracle killer, you know, at Vertica. Vertica is still around but, you know it never really hit escape velocity. But you know, good product, good company, whatever. Natezza, it kind of got buried inside of IBM. ParXL kind of became, you know, red shift with that deal so that kind of went away. Teradata bought a company, I forget which company it bought but. So that hype kind of disapated and now it's like, oh yeah, columnar. It's kind of like In-Memory, we've had a In-Memory databases ever since we've had databases you know, it's a kind of a feature not a sector. But anyway, Maria, let's come back to you. You've got a lot of customer experience. And you speak with a lot of companies, you know during your time at Oracle. What else are you seeing in terms of the benefits to this approach that might not be so intuitive and obvious right away? >> I think one of the biggest benefits to having a multimodel multiworkload or as we call it a converged database, is the fact that you can get greater data synergy from it. In other words, you can utilize all these different techniques and data models to get better value out of that data. So things like being able to do real-time machine learning, fraud detection inside a transaction or being able to do a product recommendation by accessing three different data models. So for example, if I'm trying to recommend a product for you Dave, I might use graph analytics to be able to figure out your community. Not just your friends, but other people on our system who look and behave just like you. Once I know that community then I can go over and see what products they bought by looking up our product catalog which may be stored as JSON. And then on top of that I can then see using the key-value what products inside that catalog those community members gave a five star rating to. So that way I can really pinpoint the right product for you. And I can do all of that in one transaction inside the database without having to transform that data into different models or God forbid, access different systems to be able to get all of that information. So it really simplifies how we can generate that value from the data. And of course, the other thing our customers love is when it comes to deploying data-driven apps, when you do it on a converged database it's much simpler because it is that standard data platform. So you're not having to manage multiple independent single purpose databases. You're not having to implement the security and the high availability policies, you know across a bunch of different diverse platforms. All of that can be done much simpler with a converged database 'cause the DBA team of course, is going to just use that standard set of tools to manage, monitor and secure those systems. >> Thank you for that. And you know, it's interesting, you talk about simplification and you are in Juan's organization so you've big focus on mission critical. And so one of the things that I think is often overlooked well, we talk about all the time is recovery. And if things are simpler, recovery is faster and easier. And so it's kind of the hallmark of Oracle is like the gold standard of the toughest apps, the most mission critical apps. But I wanted to get to the cloud Maria. So because everything is going to the cloud, right? Not all workloads are going to the cloud but everybody is talking about the cloud. Everybody has cloud first mentality and so yes, it's a hybrid world. But the natural next question is how do you think the cloud fits into this world of data-driven apps? >> I think just like any app that you're developing, the cloud helps to accelerate that development. And of course the deployment of these data-driven applications. 'Cause if you think about it, the developer is instantly able to provision a converged database that Oracle will automatically manage and look after for them. But what's great about doing something like that if you use like our autonomous database service is that it comes in different flavors. So you can get autonomous transaction processing, data warehousing or autonomous JSON so that the developer is going to get a database that's been optimized for their specific use case, whatever they are trying to solve. And it's also going to contain all of that great functionality and capabilities that we've been talking about. So what that really means to the developer though is as the project evolves and inevitably the business needs change a little, there's no need to panic when one of those changes comes in because your converged database or your autonomous database has all of those additional capabilities. So you can simply utilize those to able to address those evolving changes in the project. 'Cause let's face it, none of us normally know exactly what we need to build right at the very beginning. And on top of that they also kind of get a built-in buddy in the cloud, especially in the autonomous database. And that buddy comes in the form of built-in workload optimizations. So with the autonomous database we do things like automatic indexing where we're using machine learning to be that buddy for the developer. So what it'll do is it'll monitor the workload and see what kind of queries are being run on that system. And then it will actually determine if there are indexes that should be built to help improve the performance of that application. And not only does it bill those indexes but it verifies that they help improve the performance before publishing it to the application. So by the time the developer is finished with that app and it's ready to be deployed, it's actually also been optimized by the developers buddy, the Oracle autonomous database. So, you know, it's a really nice helping hand for developers when they're building any app especially data-driven apps. >> I like how you sort of gave us, you know the truth here is you don't always know where you're going when you're building an app. It's like it goes from you are trying to build it and they will come to start building it and we'll figure out where it's going to go. With Agile that's kind of how it works. But so I wonder, can you give some examples of maybe customers or maybe genericize them if you need to. Data-driven apps in the cloud where customers were able to drive more efficiency, where the cloud buddy allowed the customers to do more with less? >> No, we have tons of these but I'll try and keep it to just a couple. One that comes to mind straight away is retrace. These folks built a blockchain app in the Oracle Cloud that allows manufacturers to actually share the supply chain with the consumer. So the consumer can see exactly, who made their product? Using what raw materials? Where they were sourced from? How it was done? All of that is visible to the consumer. And in order to be able to share that they had to work on a very diverse set of data. So they had everything from JSON documents to images as well as your traditional transactions in there. And they store all of that information inside the Oracle autonomous database, they were able to build their app and deploy it on the cloud. And they were able to do all of that very, very quickly. So, you know, that ability to work on multiple different data types in a single database really helped them build that product and get it to market in a very short amount of time. Another customer that's doing something really, really interesting is MindSense. So these guys operate the largest mines in Canada, Chile, and Peru. But what they do is they put these x-ray devices on the massive mechanical shovels that are at the cove or at the mine face. And what that does is it senses the contents of the buckets inside these mining machines. And it's looking to see at that content, to see how it can optimize the processing of the ore inside in that bucket. So they're looking to minimize the amount of power and water that it's going to take to process that. And also of course, minimize the amount of waste that's going to come out of that project. So all of that sensor data is sent into an autonomous database where it's going to be processed by a whole host of different users. So everything from the mine engineers to the geo scientists, to even their own data scientists utilize that data to drive their business forward. And what I love about these guys is they're not happy with building just one app. MindSense actually use our built-in low core development environment, APEX that comes as part of the autonomous database and they actually produce applications constantly for different aspects of their business using that technology. And it's actually able to accelerate those new apps to the business. It takes them now just a couple of days or weeks to produce an app instead of months or years to build those new apps. >> Great, thank you for that Maria. Gerald, I'm going to push you again. So, I said upfront and talked about microservices and the cloud and containers and you know, anybody in the developer space follows that very closely. But some of the things that we've been talking about here people might look at that and say, well, they're kind of antithetical to microservices. This is our Oracles monolithic approach. But when you think about the benefits of microservices, people want freedom of choice, technology choice, seen as a big advantage of microservices and containers. How do you address such an argument? >> Yeah, that's an excellent question and I get that quite often. The microservices architecture in general as I said before had architectures, Linux distributions, et cetera. It's kind of always a bit of like there's an academic approach and there's a pragmatic approach. And when you look at the microservices the original definitions that came out at the early 2010s. They actually never said that each microservice has to have a database. And they also never said that if a microservice has a database, you have to use a different technology for each microservice. Just like they never said, you have to write a microservice in a different programming language, right? So where I'm going with this is like, yes you know, sometimes when you look at some vendors out there, some niche players, they push this message or they jump on this academic approach of like each microservice has the best tool at hand or I'd use a different database for your purpose, et cetera. Which almost often comes across like us. You know, we want to stay part of the conversation. Nothing stops a developer from, you know using a multimodal database for the microservice and just using that as a document store, right? Or just using that as a relational database. And, you know, sometimes I mean, it was actually something that happened that was really interesting yesterday I don't know whether you follow Dave or not. But Facebook had an outage yesterday, right? And Facebook is one of those companies that are seen as the Silicon Valley, you know know how to do microservices companies. And when you add through the outage, well, what happened, right? Some unfortunate logical error with configuration as a force that took a database cluster down. So, you know, there you have it where you go like, well, maybe not every microservice is actually in fact talking to its own database or its own special purpose database. I think there, you know, well, what we should, the industry should be focusing much more on this argument of which technology to use? What's the right tool for a job? Is more to ask themselves, what business problem actually are we trying to solve? And therefore what's the right approach and the right technology for this. And so therefore, just as I said before, you know multimodal databases they do have strong benefits. They have many built-in functionalities that are already there and they allow you to reduce this complexity of having to know many different technologies, right? And so it's not only to store different data models either you know, treat a multimodal database as a chasing documents store or a relational database but most databases are multimodal since 20 plus years. But it's also actually being able to perhaps if you store that data together, you can perhaps actually derive additional value for somebody else but perhaps not for your application. But like for example, if you were to use Oracle Database you can actually write queries on top of all of that data. It doesn't really matter for our query engine whether it's the data is format that then chase or the data is formatted in rows and columns you can just rather than query over it. And that's actually very powerful for those guys that have to, you know get the reporting done the end of the day, the end of the week. And for those guys that are the data scientists that they want to figure out, you know which product performed really well or can we tweak something here and there. When you look into that space you still see a huge divergence between the guys to put data in kind of the altarpiece style and guys that try to derive new insights. And there's still a lot of ETL going around and, you know we have big data technologies that some of them come and went and some of them came in that are still around like Apache Spark which is still like a SQL engine on top of any of your data kind of going back to the same concept. And so I will say that, you know, for developers when we look at microservices it's like, first of all, is the argument you were making because the vendor or the technology you want to use tells you this argument or, you know, you kind of want to have an argument to use a specific technology? Or is it really more because it is the best technology, to best use for this given use case for this given application that you have? And if so there's of course, also nothing wrong to use a single purpose technology either, right? >> Yeah, I mean, whenever I talk about Oracle I always come back to the most important applications, the mission critical. It's very difficult to architect databases with microservices and containers. You have to be really, really careful. And so and again, it comes back to what we were talking before about with Maria that the complexity and the recovery. But Gerald I want to stay with you for a minute. So there's other data management technologies popping out there. I mean, I've seen some people saying, okay just leave the data in an S3 bucket. We can query that, then we've got some magic sauce to do that. And so why are you optimistic about you know, traditional database technology going forward? >> I would say because of the history of databases. So one thing that once struck me when I came to Oracle and then got to meet great people like Juan Luis and Andy Mendelsohn who had been here for a long, long time. I come to realization that relational databases are around for about 45 years now. And, you know, I was like, I'm too young to have been around then, right? So I was like, what else was around 45 years? It's like just the tech stack that we have today. It's like, how does this look like? Well, Linux only came out in 93. Well, databases pre-date Linux a lot rather than as I started digging I saw a lot of technologies come and go, right? And you mentioned before like the technologies that data management systems that we had that came and went like the columnar databases or XML databases, object databases. And even before relational databases before Cot gave us the relational model there were apparently these networks stores network databases which to some extent look very similar to adjacent documents. There wasn't a harder storing data and a hierarchy to format. And, you know when you then start actually reading the Cot paper and diving a little bit more into the relation model, that's I think one important crux in there that most of the industry keeps forgetting or it hasn't been around to even know. And that is that when Cot created the relational model, he actually focused not so much on the application putting the data in, but on future users and applications still being able to making sense out of the data, right? And that's kind of like I said before we had those network models, we had XML databases you have adjacent documents stores. And the one thing that they all have along with it is like the application that puts the data in decides the structure of the data. And that's all well and good if you had an application of the developer writing an application. It can become really tricky when 10 years later you still want to look at that data and the application that the developer is no longer around then you go like, what does this all mean? Where is the structure defined? What is this attribute? What does it mean? How does it correlate to others? And the one thing that people tend to forget is that it's actually the data that's here to stay not someone who does the applications where it is. Ideally, every company wants to store every single byte of data that they have because there might be future value in it. Economically may not make sense that's now much more feasible than just years ago. But if you could, why wouldn't you want to store all your data, right? And sometimes you actually have to store the data for seven years or whatever because the laws require you to. And so coming back then and you know, like 10 years from now and looking at the data and going like making sense of that data can actually become a lot more difficult and a lot more challenging than having to first figure out and how we store this data for general use. And that kind of was what the relational model was all about. We decompose the data structures into tables and columns with relationships amongst each other so therefore between each other. So that therefore if somebody wants to, you know typical example would be well you store some purchases from your web store, right? There's a customer attribute in it. There's some credit card payment information in it, just some product information on what the customer bought. Well, in the relational model if you just want to figure out which products were sold on a given day or week, you just would query the payment and products table to get the sense out of it. You don't need to touch the customer and so forth. And with the hierarchical model you have to first sit down and understand how is the structure, what is the customer? Where is the payment? You know, does the document start with the payment or does it start with the customer? Where do I find this information? And then in the very early days those databases even struggled to then not having to scan all the documents to get the data out. So coming back to your question a bit, I apologize for going on here. But you know, it's like relational databases have been around for 45 years. I actually argue it's one of the most successful software technologies that we have out there when you look in the overall industry, right? 45 years is like, in IT terms it's like from a star being the ones who are going supernova. You have said it before that many technologies coming and went, right? And just want to add a more really interesting example by the way is Hadoop and HDFS, right? They kind of gave us this additional promise of like, you know, the 2010s like 2012, 2013 the hype of Hadoop and so forth and (mumbles) and HDFS. And people are just like, just put everything into HDFS and worry about the data later, right? And we can query it and map reduce it and whatever. And we had customers actually coming to us they were like, great we have half a petabyte of data on an HDFS cluster and we have no clue what's stored in there. How do we figure this out? What are we going to do now? Now you had a big data cleansing problem. And so I think that is why databases and also data modeling is something that will not go away anytime soon. And I think databases and database technologies are here for quite a while to stay. Because many of those are people they don't think about what's happening to the data five years from now. And many of the niche players also and also frankly even Amazon you know, following with this single purpose thing is like, just use the right tool for the job for your application, right? Just pull in the data there the way you wanted. And it's like, okay, so you use technologies all over the place and then five years from now you have your data fragmented everywhere in different formats and, you know inconsistencies, and, and, and. And those are usually when you come back to this data-driven business critical business decision applications the worst case scenario you can have, right? Because now you need an army of people to actually do data cleansing. And there's not a coincidence that data science has become very, very popular the last recent years as we kind of went on with this proliferation of different database or data management technologies some of those are not even database. But I think I leave it at that. >> It's an interesting talk track because you're right. I mean, no schema on right was alluring, but it definitely created some problems. It also created an entire, you know you referenced the hyper specialized roles and did the data cleansing component. I mean, maybe technology will eventually solve that problem but it hasn't up at least up tonight. Okay, last question, Maria maybe you could start off and Gerald if you want to chime in as well it'd be great. I mean, it's interesting to watch this industry when Oracle sort of won the top database mantle. I mean, I watched it, I saw it. It was, remember it was Informix and it was (indistinct) too and of course, Microsoft you got to give them credit with SQL server, but Oracle won the database wars. And then everything got kind of quiet for awhile database was sort of boring. And then it exploded, you know, all the, you know not only SQL and the key-value stores and the cloud databases and this is really a hot area now. And when we looked at Oracle we said, okay, Oracle it's all about Oracle Database, but we've seen the kind of resurgence in MySQL which everybody thought, you know once Oracle bought Sun they were going to kill MySQL. But now we see you investing in HeatWave, TimesTen, we talked about In-Memory databases before. So where do those fit in Maria in the grand scheme? How should we think about Oracle's database portfolio? >> So there's lots of places where you'd use those different things. 'Cause just like any other industry there are going to be new and boutique use cases that are going to benefit from a more specialized product or single purpose product. So good examples off the top of my head of the kind of systems that would benefit from that would be things like a stock exchange system or a telephone exchange system. Both of those are latency critical transaction processing applications where they need microsecond response times. And that's going to exceed perhaps what you might normally get or deploy with a converged database. And so Oracle's TimesTen database our In-Memory database is perfect for those kinds of applications. But there's also a host of MySQL applications out there today and you said it yourself there Dave, HeatWave is a great place to provision and deploy those kinds of applications because it's going to run 100 times faster than AWS (mumbles). So, you know, there really is a place in the market and in our customer's systems and the needs they have for all of these different members of our database family here at Oracle. >> Yeah, well, the internet is basically running in the lamp stack so I see MySQL going away. All right Gerald, will give you the final word, bring us home. >> Oh, thank you very much. Yeah, I mean, as Maria said, I think it comes back to what we discussed before. There is obviously still needs for special technologies or different technologies than a relational database or multimodal database. Oracle has actually many more databases that people may first think of. Not only the three that we have already mentioned but there's even SP so the Oracle's NoSQL database. And, you know, on a high level Oracle is a data management company, right? And we want to give our customers the best tools and the best technology to manage all of their data. Rather than therefore there has to be a need or there should be a part of the business that also focuses on this highly specialized systems and this highly specialized technologies that address those use cases. And I think it makes perfect sense. It's like, you know, when the customer comes to Oracle they're not only getting this, take this one product you know, and if you don't like it your problem but actually you have choice, right? And choice allows you to make a decision based on what's best for you and not necessarily best for the vendor you're talking to. >> Well guys, really appreciate your time today and your insights. Maria, Gerald, thanks so much for coming on The Cube. >> Thank you very much for having us. >> And thanks for watching this Cube conversation this is Dave Vellante and we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube covering space and cybersecurity. Symposium 2020 hosted by Cal Poly >>Oven. Welcome back to the Space and Cyber Security Symposium. 2020 I'm John for your host with the Cuban silicon angle, along with Cal Poly, representing a great session here on industry success in developing space and cybersecurity. Resource is Got a great lineup. Brigadier General Steve Hotel, whose are also known as Bucky, is Call Sign director of Space Portfolio Defense Innovation Unit. Preston Miller, chief information security officer at JPL, NASA and Major General retired Clint Crozier, director of aerospace and satellite solutions at Amazon Web services, also known as a W s. Gentlemen, thank you for for joining me today. So the purpose of this session is to spend the next hour talking about the future of workforce talent. Um, skills needed and we're gonna dig into it. And Spaces is an exciting intersection of so many awesome disciplines. It's not just get a degree, go into a track ladder up and get promoted. Do those things. It's much different now. Love to get your perspectives, each of you will have an opening statement and we will start with the Brigadier General Steve Hotel. Right? >>Thank you very much. The Defense Innovation Unit was created in 2015 by then Secretary of Defense Ash Carter. To accomplish three things. One is to accelerate the adoption of commercial technology into the Department of Defense so that we can transform and keep our most relevant capabilities relevant. And also to build what we call now called the national Security Innovation Base, which is inclusive all the traditional defense companies, plus the commercial companies that may not necessarily work with focus exclusively on defense but could contribute to our national security and interesting ways. Um, this is such an exciting time Azul here from our other speakers about space on and I can't, uh I'm really excited to be here today to be able to share a little bit of our insight on the subject. >>Thank you very much. Precedent. Miller, Chief information security officer, Jet Propulsion Lab, NASA, Your opening statement. >>Hey, thank you for having me. I would like to start off by providing just a little bit of context of what brings us. Brings us together to talk about this exciting topic for space workforce. Had we've seen In recent years there's been there's been a trend towards expanding our space exploration and the space systems that offer the great things that we see in today's world like GPS. Um, but a lot of that has come with some Asian infrastructure and technology, and what we're seeing as we go towards our next generation expects of inspiration is that we now want to ensure that were secured on all levels. And there's an acknowledgement that our space systems are just a susceptible to cyber attacks as our terrestrial assistance. We've seen a recent space, uh, policy Directive five come out from our administration, that that details exactly how we should be looking at the cyber principle for our space systems, and we want to prevent. We want to prevent a few things as a result of that of these principles. Spoofing and jamming of our space systems are not authorized commands being sent to those space systems, lots of positive control of our space vehicles on lots of mission data. We also acknowledge that there's a couple of frameworks we wanna adopt across the board of our space systems levers and things like our nice miss cybersecurity frameworks. eso what has been a challenge in the past adopted somebody Cyber principles in space systems, where there simply has been a skill gap in a knowledge gap. We hire our space engineers to do a few things. Very well designed space systems, the ploy space systems and engineer space systems, often cybersecurity is seen as a after thought and certainly hasn't been a line item and in any budget for our spaces in racing. Uh, in the past in recent years, the dynamic started to change. We're now now integrating cyber principles at the onset of development of these life cycle of space. Systems were also taking a hard look of how we train the next generation of engineers to be both adequate. Space engineers, space system engineers and a cyber engineers, as a result to Mrs success on DWI, also are taking a hard look at What do we mean when we talk about holistic risk management for our space assistance, Traditionally risk management and missing insurance for space systems? I've really revolved around quality control, but now, in recent years we've started to adopt principles that takes cyber risk into account, So this is a really exciting topic for me. It's something that I'm fortunate to work with and live with every day. I'm really excited to get into this discussion with my other panel members. Thank you. >>You Preston. Great insight there. Looking forward. Thio chatting further. Um, Clint Closure with a W. S now heading up. A director of aerospace and satellite Solutions, formerly Major General, Your opening statement. >>Thanks, John. I really appreciate that introduction and really appreciate the opportunity to be here in the Space and Cybersecurity Symposium. And thanks to Cal Poly for putting it together, you know, I can't help, but as I think to Cal Poly there on the central California coast, San Luis Obispo, California I can't help but to think back in this park quickly. I spent two years of my life as a launch squadron commander at Vandenberg Air Force Base, about an hour south of Cal Poly launching rockets, putting satellites in orbit for the national intelligence community and so some really fond memories of the Central California coast. I couldn't agree more with the theme of our symposium this week. The space and cyber security we've all come to know over the last decade. How critical spaces to the world, whether it's for national security intelligence, whether it's whether communications, maritime, agriculture, development or a whole host of other things, economic and financial transactions. But I would make the case that I think most of your listeners would agree we won't have space without cybersecurity. In other words, if we can't guaranteed cybersecurity, all those benefits that we get from space may not be there. Preston in a moment ago that all the threats that have come across in the terrestrial world, whether it be hacking or malware or ransomware or are simple network attacks, we're seeing all those migrate to space to. And so it's a really important issue that we have to pay attention to. I also want to applaud Cow Pauling. They've got some really important initiatives. The conference here, in our particular panel, is about developing the next generation of space and cyber workers, and and Cal Poly has two important programs. One is the digital transformation hub, and the other is space data solutions, both of which, I'm happy to say, are in partnership with a W. S. But these were important programs where Cal Poly looks to try to develop the next generation of space and cyber leaders. And I would encourage you if you're interested in that toe. Look up the program because that could be very valuable is well, I'm relatively new to the AWS team and I'm really happy Thio team, as John you said recently retired from the U. S. Air Force and standing up the U. S. Space force. But the reason that I mentioned that as the director of the aerospace and satellite team is again it's in perfect harmony with the theme today. You know, we've recognized that space is critically important and that cyber security is critically important and that's been a W s vision as well. In fact, a W s understands how important the space domain is and coupled with the fact that AWS is well known that at a W s security is job zero and stolen a couple of those to fax A. W. S was looking to put together a team the aerospace and satellite team that focus solely and exclusively every single day on technical innovation in space and more security for the space domain through the cloud and our offerings there. So we're really excited to reimagine agree, envision what space networks and architectures could look like when they're born on the cloud. So that's important. You know, talk about workforce here in just a moment, but but I'll give you just a quick sneak. We at AWS have also recognized the gap in the projected workforce, as Preston mentioned, Um, depending on the projection that you look at, you know, most projections tell us that the demand for highly trained cyber cyber security cloud practitioners in the future outweighs what we think is going to be the supply. And so a ws has leaned into that in a number of ways that we're gonna talk about the next segment. I know. But with our workforce transformation, where we've tried to train free of charge not just a W s workers but more importantly, our customers workers. It s a W s we obsessed over the customer. And so we've provided free training toe over 7000 people this year alone toe bring their cloud security and cyber security skills up to where they will be able to fully leverage into the new workforce. So we're really happy about that too? I'm glad Preston raised SPD five space policy Directive five. I think it's gonna have a fundamental impact on the space and cyber industry. Uh, now full disclosure with that said, You know, I'm kind of a big fan of space policy directives, ESPN, Or was the space policy directive that directed to stand up of the U. S. Space Force and I spent the last 18 months of my life as the lead planner and architect for standing up the U. S. Space force. But with that said, I think when we look back a decade from now, we're going to see that s p d five will have as much of an impact in a positive way as I think SPD for on the stand up of the space Force have already done so. So I'll leave it there, but really look forward to the dialogue and discussion. >>Thank you, gentlemen. Clint, I just wanna say thank you for all your hard work and the team and the people who were involved in standing up Space force. Um, it is totally new. It's a game changer. It's modern, is needed. And there's benefits on potential challenges and opportunities that are gonna be there, so thank you very much for doing that. I personally am excited. I know a lot of people are excited for what the space force is today and what it could become. Thank you very much. >>Yeah, Thanks. >>Okay, So >>with >>that, let me give just jump in because, you know, as you're talking about space force and cybersecurity and you spend your time at Vanderburgh launching stuff into space, that's very technical. Is operation okay? I mean, it's complex in and of itself, but if you think about like, what's going on beyond in space is a lot of commercial aspect. So I'm thinking, you know, launching stuff into space on one side of my brain and the other side of brain, I'm thinking like air travel. You know, all the logistics and the rules of the road and air traffic control and all the communications and all the technology and policy and, you >>know, landing. >>So, Major General Clint, what's your take on this? Because this is not easy. It's not just one thing that speaks to the diversity of workforce needs. What's your reaction to that? >>Yeah. I mean, your observation is right on. We're seeing a real boom in the space and aerospace industry. For all the good reasons we talked about, we're recognizing all the value space from again economic prosperity to exploration to being ableto, you know, improve agriculture and in weather and all those sorts of things that we understand from space. So what I'm really excited about is we're seeing this this blossom of space companies that we sort of referred to his new space. You know, it used to be that really only large governments like the United States and a handful of others could operate in the space domain today and largely infused because of the technological innovation that have come with Cyber and Cyrus Space and even the cloud we're seeing more and more companies, capabilities, countries, all that have the ability, you know. Even a well funded university today can put a cube sat in orbit, and Cal Poly is working on some of those too, by the way, and so it's really expanded the number of people that benefits the activity in space and again, that's why it's so critically important because we become more and more reliant and we will become more and more reliant on those capabilities that we have to protect him. It's fundamental that we do. So, >>Bucky, I want you to weigh in on this because actually, you you've flown. Uh, I got a call sign which I love interviewing people. Anyone who's a call sign is cool in my book. So, Bucky, I want you to react to that because that's outside of the technology, you know, flying in space. There's >>no >>rule. I mean, is there like a rules? I mean, what's the rules of the road? I mean, state of the right. I mean, what I mean, what what's going? What's gonna have toe happen? Okay, just logistically. >>Well, this is very important because, uh and I've I've had access thio information space derived information for most of my flying career. But the amount of information that we need operate effectively in the 21st century is much greater than Thanet has been in the past. Let me describe the environment s so you can appreciate a little bit more what our challenges are. Where, from a space perspective, we're going to see a new exponential increase in the number of systems that could be satellites. Uh, users and applications, right? And so eso we're going we're growing rapidly into an environment where it's no longer practical to just simply evolved or operate on a perimeter security model. We and with this and as I was brought up previously, we're gonna try to bring in MAWR commercial capabilities. There is a tremendous benefit with increasing the diversity of sources of information. We use it right now. The military relies very heavily on commercial SAT com. We have our military capabilities, but the commercial capabilities give us capacity that we need and we can. We can vary that over time. The same will be true for remote sensing for other broadband communications capabilities on doing other interesting effects. Also, in the modern era, we doom or operations with our friends and allies, our regional partners all around the world, in order to really improve our interoperability and have rapid exchange of information, commercial information, sources and capabilities provides the best means of doing that. So that so that the imperative is very important and what all this describes if you want to put one word on it. ISS, we're involving into ah hybrid space architectures where it's gonna be imperative that we protect the integrity of information and the cyber security of the network for the things most important to us from a national security standpoint. But we have to have the rules that that allows us to freely exchange information rapidly and in a way that that we can guarantee that the right users are getting the right information at the right. >>We're gonna come back to that on the skill set and opportunities for people driving. That's just looking. There's so much opportunity. Preston, I want you to react to this. I interviewed General Keith Alexander last year. He formerly ran Cyber Command. Um, now he's building Cyber Security Technologies, and his whole thesis is you have to share. So the question is, how do you share and lock stuff down at the same time when you have ah, multi sided marketplace in space? You know, suppliers, users, systems. This is a huge security challenge. What's your reaction to this? Because we're intersecting all these things space and cybersecurity. It's just not easy. What's your reaction? >>Absolutely, Absolutely. And what I would say in response to that first would be that security really needs to be baked into the onset of how we develop and implement and deploy our space systems. Um, there's there's always going to be the need to collect and share data across multiple entities, particularly when we're changing scientific data with our mission partners. Eso with that necessitates that we have a security view from the onset, right? We have a system spaces, and they're designed to share information across the world. How do we make sure that those, uh, those other those communication channels so secure, free from interception free from disruption? So they're really done? That necessitates of our space leaders in our cyber leaders to be joining the hip about how to secure our space systems, and the communications there in Clinton brought up a really good point of. And then I'm gonna elaborate on a little bit, just toe invite a little bit more context and talk about some the complexities and challenges we face with this advent of new space and and all of our great commercial partners coming into therefore way, that's going to present a very significant supply chain risk management problems that we have to get our hands around as well. But we have these manufacturers developing these highly specialized components for the space instruments, Um, that as it stands right now, it's very little oversight And how those things air produced, manufactured, put into the space systems communication channels that they use ports protocols that they use to communicate. And that's gonna be a significant challenge for us to get get our hands around. So again, cybersecurity being brought in. And the very onset of these development thes thes decisions in these life cycles was certainly put us in a best better position to secure that data in our in our space missions. >>Yeah, E just pick up on that. You don't mind? Preston made such a really good point there. But you have to bake security in up front, and you know there's a challenge and there's an opportunity, you know, with a lot of our systems today. It was built in a pre cyber security environment, especially our government systems that were built, you know, in many cases 10 years ago, 15 years ago are still on orbit today, and we're thankful that they are. But as we look at this new environment and we understand the threats, if we bake cybersecurity in upfront weaken balance that open application versus the risk a long as we do it up front. And you know, that's one of the reasons that our company developed what we call govcloud, which is a secure cloud, that we use thio to manage data that our customers who want to do work with the federal government or other governments or the national security apparatus. They can operate in that space with the built in and baked in cybersecurity protocols. We have a secret region that both can handle secret and top secret information for the same reasons. But when you bake security into the upfront applications, that really allows you to balance that risk between making it available and accessible in sort of an open architecture way. But being sure that it's protected through things like ITAR certifications and fed ramp, uh, another ice T certifications that we have in place. So that's just a really important point. >>Let's stay high level for a man. You mentioned a little bit of those those govcloud, which made me think about you know, the tactical edge in the military analogy, but also with space similar theater. It's just another theater and you want to stand stuff up. Whether it's communications and have facilities, you gotta do it rapidly, and you gotta do it in a very agile, secure, I high availability secure way. So it's not the old waterfall planning. You gotta be fast is different. Cloud does things different? How do you talk to the young people out there, whether it's apparent with with kids in elementary and middle school to high school, college grad level or someone in the workforce? Because there are no previous jobs, that kind of map to the needs out there because you're talking about new skills, you could be an archaeologist and be the best cyber security guru on the planet. You don't have to have that. There's no degree for what, what we're talking about here. This >>is >>the big confusion around education. I mean, you gotta you like math and you could code you can Anything who wants to comment on that? Because I think this >>is the core issue. I'll say there are more and more programs growing around that educational need, and I could talk about a few things we're doing to, but I just wanna make an observation about what you just said about the need. And how do you get kids involved and interested? Interestingly, I think it's already happening, right. The good news. We're already developing that affinity. My four year old granddaughter can walk over, pick up my iPad, turn it on. Somehow she knows my account information, gets into my account, pulls up in application, starts playing a game. All before I really even realized she had my iPad. I mean, when when kids grow up on the cloud and in technology, it creates that natural proficiency. I think what we have to do is take that natural interest and give them the skill set the tools and capabilities that go with it so that we're managing, you know, the the interest with the technical skills. >>And also, like a fast I mean, just the the hackers are getting educated. Justus fast. Steve. I mean e mean Bucky. What do you do here? You CIt's the classic. Just keep chasing skills. I mean, there are new skills. What are some of those skills? >>Why would I amplify eloquent? Just said, First of all, the, uh, you know, cyber is one of those technology areas where commercial side not not the government is really kind of leading away and does a significant amount of research and development. Ah, billions of dollars are spent every year Thio to evolve new capabilities. And a lot of those companies are, you know, operated and and in some cases, led by folks in their early twenties. So the S O. This is definitely an era and a generation that is really poised in position. Well, uh, Thio take on this challenge. There's some unique aspects to space. Once we deploy a system, uh, it will be able to give me hard to service it, and we're developing capabilities now so that we could go up and and do system upgrades. But that's not a normal thing in space that just because the the technical means isn't there yet. So having software to find capabilities, I's gonna be really paramount being able to dio unique things. The cloud is huge. The cloud is centric to this or architectural, and it's kind of funny because d o d we joke because we just discovered the cloud, you know, a couple years ago. But the club has been around for a while and, uh, and it's going to give us scalability on and the growth potential for doing amazing things with a big Data Analytics. But as Preston said, it's all for not if if we can't trust the data that we receive. And so one of the concepts for future architectures is to evolve into a zero trust model where we trust nothing. We verify and authenticate everyone. And, uh, and that's that's probably a good, uh, point of departure as we look forward into our cybersecurity for space systems into the future. >>Block everyone. Preston. Your reaction to all this gaps, skills, What's needed. I mean it Z everyone's trying to squint through this >>absolutely. And I wanna want to shift gears a little bit and talk about the space agencies and organizations that are responsible for deploying these spaces into submission. So what is gonna take in this new era on, and what do we need from the workforce to be responsive to the challenges that we're seeing? First thing that comes to mind is creating a culture of security throughout aerospace right and ensuring that Azzawi mentioned before security isn't an afterthought. It's sort of baked into our models that we deploy and our rhetoric as well, right? And because again we hire our spaces in years to do it very highly. Specialized thing for a highly specialized, uh, it's topic. Our effort, if we start to incorporate rhetorically the importance of cybersecurity two missing success and missing assurance that's going to lend itself toe having more, more prepared on more capable system engineers that will be able to respond to the threats accordingly. Traditionally, what we see in organizational models it's that there's a cyber security team that's responsible for the for the whole kit kaboodle across the entire infrastructure, from enterprise systems to specialize, specialize, space systems and then a small pocket of spaces, years that that that are really there to perform their tasks on space systems. We really need to bridge that gap. We need to think about cybersecurity holistically, the skills that are necessary for your enterprise. I t security teams need to be the same skills that we need to look for for our system engineers on the flight side. So organizationally we need we need to address that issue and approach it, um todo responsive to the challenges we see our our space systems, >>new space, new culture, new skills. One of the things I want to bring up is looking for success formulas. You know, one of the things we've been seeing in the past 10 years of doing the Cube, which is, you know, we've been called the ESPN of Tech is that there's been kind of like a game ification. I want to. I don't wanna say sports because sports is different, but you're seeing robotics clubs pop up in some schools. It's like a varsity sport you're seeing, you know, twitch and you've got gamers out there, so you're seeing fun built into it. I think Cal Poly's got some challenges going on there, and then scholarships air behind it. So it's almost as if, you know, rather than going to a private sports training to get that scholarship, that never happens. There's so many more scholarship opportunities for are not scholarship, but just job opportunities and even scholarships we've covered as part of this conference. Uh, it's a whole new world of culture. It's much different than when I grew up, which was you know, you got math, science and English. You did >>it >>and you went into your track. Anyone want to comment on this new culture? Because I do believe that there is some new patterns emerging and some best practices anyone share any? >>Yeah, I do, because as you talked about robotics clubs and that sort of things, but those were great and I'm glad those air happening. And that's generating the interest, right? The whole gaming culture generating interest Robotic generates a lot of interest. Space right has captured the American in the world attention as well, with some recent NASA activities and all for the right reasons. But it's again, it's about taking that interested in providing the right skills along the way. So I'll tell you a couple of things. We're doing it a w s that we found success with. The first one is a program called A W s Academy. And this is where we have developed a cloud, uh, program a cloud certification. This is ah, cloud curriculum, if you will, and it's free and it's ready to teach. Our experts have developed this and we're ready to report it to a two year and four year colleges that they can use is part of the curriculum free of charge. And so we're seeing some real value there. And in fact, the governor's in Utah and Arizona recently adopted this program for their two year schools statewide again, where it's already to teach curriculum built by some of the best experts in the industry s so that we can try to get that skills to the people that are interested. We have another program called A W s educate, and this is for students to. But the idea behind this is we have 12 cracks and you can get up to 50 hours of free training that lead to A W s certification, that sort of thing. And then what's really interesting about that is all of our partners around the world that have tied into this program we manage what we call it ws educate Job board. And so if you have completed this educate program now, you can go to that job board and be linked directly with companies that want people with those skills we just helped you get. And it's a perfect match in a perfect marriage there. That one other piece real quickly that we're proud of is the aws Uh restart program. And that's where people who are unemployed, underemployed or transitioning can can go online. Self paced. We have over 500 courses they can take to try to develop those initial skills and get into the industry. And that's been very popular, too, So that those air a couple of things we're really trying to lean into >>anyone else want to react. Thio that question patterns success, best practices, new culture. >>I'd like Thio. The the wonderful thing about what you just touched on is problem solving, right, And there's some very, very good methodologies that are being taught in the universities and through programs like Hacking for Defense, which is sponsored by the National Security Innovation Network, a component of the I you where I work but the But whether you're using a lien methodologies or design school principals or any other method, the thing that's wonderful right now and not just, uh, where I work at the U. The Space force is doing this is well, but we're putting the problem out there for innovators to tackle, And so, rather than be prescriptive of the solutions that we want to procure, we want we want the best minds at all levels to be able to work on the problem. Uh, look at how they can leverage other commercial solutions infrastructure partnerships, uh, Thio to come up with a solution that we can that we can rapidly employ and scale. And if it's a dual use solution or whether it's, uh, civil military or or commercial, uh, in any of the other government solutions. Uh, that's really the best win for for the nation, because that commercial capability again allows us to scale globally and share those best practices with all of our friends and allies. People who share our values >>win win to this commercial. There's a business model potential financial benefits as well. Societal impact Preston. I want to come to you, JPL, NASA. I mean, you work in one of the most awesome places and you know, to me, you know, if you said to me, Hey, John, come working JP like I'm not smart enough to go there like I mean, like, it's a pretty It's intimidating, it might seem >>share folks out there, >>they can get there. I mean, it's you can get there if you have the right skills. I mean I'm just making that up. But, I mean, it is known to be super smart And is it attainable? So share your thoughts on this new culture because you could get the skills to get there. What's your take on all this >>s a bucket. Just missing something that really resonated with me, right? It's do it your love office. So if you put on the front engineer, the first thing you're gonna try to do is pick it apart. Be innovative, be creative and ways to solve that issue. And it has been really encouraging to me to see the ground welcome support an engagement that we've seen across our system. Engineers in space. I love space partners. A tackling the problem of cyber. Now that they know the West at risk on some of these cyber security threats that that they're facing with our space systems, they definitely want to be involved. They want to take the lead. They want to figure things out. They wanna be innovative and creative in that problem solving eso jpl We're doing a few things. Thio Raise the awareness Onda create a culture of security. Andi also create cyber advocates, cybersecurity advocates across our space engineers. We host events like hacked the lad, for example, and forgive me. Take a pause to think about the worst case scenarios that could that could result from that. But it certainly invites a culture of creative problem solving. Um, this is something that that kids really enjoy that are system engineers really enjoyed being a part off. Um, it's something that's new refreshing to them. Eso we were doing things like hosting a monthly cybersecurity advocacy group. When we talk about some of the cyber landscape of our space systems and invite our engineers into the conversation, we do outweighs programs specifically designed to to capture, um, our young folks, uh, young engineers to deceive. They would be interested and show them what this type of security has to offer by ways of data Analytic, since the engineering and those have been really, really successful identifying and bringing in new talent to address the skill gaps. >>Steve, I want to ask you about the d. O. D. You mentioned some of the commercial things. How are you guys engaging the commercial to solve the space issue? Because, um, the normalization in the economy with GPS just seeing spaces impacts everybody's lives. We we know that, um, it's been talked about. And and there's many, many examples. How are you guys the D o. D. From a security standpoint and or just from an advancement innovation standpoint, engaging with commercials, commercial entities and commercial folks? >>Well, I'll throw. I'll throw a, uh, I'll throw ah, compliment to Clint because he did such an outstanding job. The space forces already oriented, uh, towards ah, commercial where it's appropriate and extending the arms. Leveraging the half works on the Space Enterprise Consortium and other tools that allow for the entrepreneurs in the space force Thio work with their counterparts in a commercial community. And you see this with the, uh, you know, leveraging space X away to, uh, small companies who are doing extraordinary things to help build space situational awareness and, uh, s So it's it's the people who make this all happen. And what we do at at the D. O. D level, uh, work at the Office of Secretary defense level is we wanna make sure that they have the right tools to be able to do that in a way that allows these commercial companies to work with in this case of a space force or with cyber command and ways that doesn't redefine that. The nature of the company we want we want We want commercial companies to have, ah, great experience working with d o d. And we want d o d toe have the similar experience working, working with a commercial community, and and we actually work interagency projects to So you're going to see, uh, General Raymond, uh, hey, just recently signed an agreement with the NASA Esa, you're gonna see interagency collaborations on space that will include commercial capabilities as well. So when we speak as one government were not. You know, we're one voice, and that's gonna be tremendous, because if you're a commercial company on you can you can develop a capability that solves problems across the entire space enterprise on the government side. How great is that, Right. That's a scaling. Your solution, gentlemen. Let >>me pick you back on that, if you don't mind. I'm really excited about that. I mentioned new space, and Bucky talked about that too. You know, I've been flying satellites for 30 years, and there was a time where you know the U. S. Government national security. We wouldn't let anybody else look at him. Touch him. Plug into, um, anything else, right. And that probably worked at the time. >>But >>the world has changed. And more >>importantly, >>um, there is commercial technology and capability available today, and there's no way the U. S government or national security that national Intel community can afford economically >>to >>fund all that investment solely anymore. We don't have the manpower to do it anymore. So we have this perfect marriage of a burgeoning industry that has capabilities and it has re sources. And it has trained manpower. And we are seeing whether it's US Space Force, whether it's the intelligence community, whether it's NASA, we're seeing that opened up to commercial providers more than I've ever seen in my career. And I can tell you the customers I work with every day in a W s. We're building an entire ecosystem now that they understand how they can plug in and participate in that, and we're just seeing growth. But more importantly, we're seeing advanced capability at cheaper cost because of that hybrid model. So that really is exciting. >>Preston. You know you mentioned earlier supply chain. I don't think I think you didn't use the word supply chain. Maybe you did. But you know about the components. Um, you start opening things up and and your what you said baking it in to the beginning, which is well known. Uh, premise. It's complicated. So take me through again, Like how this all gonna work securely because And what's needed for skill sets because, you know, you're gonna open. You got open source software, which again, that's open. We live in a free society in the United States of America, so we can't lock everything down. You got components that are gonna be built anywhere all around the world from vendors that aren't just a certified >>or maybe >>certified. Um, it's pretty crazy. So just weigh in on this key point because I think Clint has it right. And but that's gonna be solved. What's your view on this? >>Absolutely. And I think it really, really start a top, right? And if you look back, you know, across, um in this country, particularly, you take the financial industry, for example, when when that was a burgeoning industry, what had to happen to ensure that across the board. Um, you know, your your finances were protected these way. Implemented regulations from the top, right? Yeah. And same thing with our health care industry. We implemented regulations, and I believe that's the same approach we're gonna need to take with our space systems in our space >>industry >>without being too directive or prescriptive. Instance she ating a core set of principles across the board for our manufacturers of space instruments for deployment and development of space systems on for how space data and scientific data is passed back and forth. Eso really? We're gonna need to take this. Ah, holistic approach. Thio, how we address this issue with cyber security is not gonna be easy. It's gonna be very challenging, but we need to set the guard rails for exactly what goes into our space systems, how they operate and how they communicate. >>Alright, so let's tie this back to the theme, um, Steve and Clint, because this is all about workforce gaps, opportunities. Um, Steve, you mentioned software defined. You can't do break fix in space. You can't just send a technician up in the space to fix a component. You gotta be software defined. We're talking about holistic approach, about commercial talk about business model technology with software and policy. We need people to think through, like you know. What the hell are you gonna do here, right? Do you just noticed road at the side of the road to drive on? There's no rules of engagement. So what I'm seeing is certainly software Check. If you wanna have a job for the next millennial software policy who solves two problems, what does freedom looked like in space Congestion Contention and then, obviously, business model. Can you guys comment on these three areas? Do you agree? And what specific person might be studying in grad school or undergraduate or in high school saying, Hey, I'm not a techie, but they can contribute your thoughts. I'll >>start off with, uh, speak on on behalf of the government today. I would just say that as policy goes, we need to definitely make sure that we're looking towards the future. Ah, lot of our policy was established in the past under different conditions, and, uh, and if there's anything that you cannot say today is that space is the same as it was even 10 years ago. So the so It's really important that our policy evolves and recognizes that that technology is going to enable not just a new ways of doing things, but also force us to maybe change or or get rid of obsolete policies that will inhibit our ability to innovate and grow and maintain peace with with a rapid, evolving threat. The for the for the audience today, Uh, you know, you want some job assurance, cybersecurity and space it's gonna be It's gonna be an unbelievable, uh, next, uh, few decades and I couldn't think of a more exciting for people to get into because, you know, spaces Ah, harsh environment. We're gonna have a hard time just dud being able differentiate, you know, anomalies that occur just because of the environment versus something that's being hacked. And so JPL has been doing this for years on they have Cem Cem great approaches, but but this is this is gonna be important if you put humans on the moon and you're going to sustain them there. Those life support systems are gonna be using, you know, state of the art computer technology, and which means, is also vulnerable. And so eso the consequences of us not being prepared? Uh, not just from our national security standpoint, but from our space exploration and our commercial, uh, economic growth in space over the long term all gonna be hinged on this cyber security environment. >>Clint, your thoughts on this too ill to get. >>Yeah. So I certainly agree with Bucky. But you said something a moment ago that Bucky was talking about as well. But that's the idea that you know in space, you can't just reach out and touch the satellite and do maintenance on the satellite the way you can't a car or a tank or a plane or a ship or something like that. And that is true. However, right, comma, I want to point out. You know, the satellite servicing industry is starting to develop where they're looking at robotic techniques in Cape abilities to go up in services satellite on orbit. And that's very promising off course. You got to think through the security policy that goes with that, of course. But the other thing that's really exciting is with artificial intelligence and machine learning and edge computing and database analytics and all those things that right on the cloud. You may not even need to send a robotic vehicle to a satellite, right? If you can upload and download software defined, fill in the blank right, maybe even fundamentally changing the mission package or the persona, if you will, of the satellite or the spacecraft. And that's really exciting to, ah, lot >>of >>security policy that you've gotta work through. But again, the cloud just opens up so many opportunities to continue to push the boundaries. You know, on the AWS team, the aerospace and satellite team, which is, you know, the new team that I'm leading. Now our motto is to the stars through the cloud. And there are just so many exciting opportunities right for for all those capabilities that I just mentioned to the stars through the cloud >>President, your thoughts on this? >>Yes, eso won >>a >>little bit of time talking about some of the business model implications and some of the challenges that exists there. Um, in my experience, we're still working through a bit of a language barrier of how we define risk management for our space systems. Traditionally traditionally risk management models is it is very clear what poses a risk to a flight mission. Our space mission, our space system. Um, and we're still finding ways to communicate cyber risk in the same terms that are system engineers are space engineers have traditionally understood. Um, this is a bit of a qualitative versus quantitative, a language barrier. But however adopting a risk management model that includes cybersecurity, a za way to express wish risk to miss the success, I think I think it would be a very good thing is something that that we have been focused on the J. P o as we Aziz, we look at the 34 years beyond. How do >>we >>risk that gap and not only skills but communication of cyber risk and the way that our space engineers and our project engineers and a space system managers understand >>Clinton, like Thio talk about space Force because this is the most popular new thing. It's only a couple of nine months in roughly not even a year, uh, already changing involving based on some of the reporting we've done even here at this symposium and on the Internet. Um, you know, when I was growing up, you know, I wasn't there when JFK said, you know, we're gonna get to the moon. I was born in the sixties, so, you know, when I was graduating my degree, you know, Draper Labs, Lincoln Lab, JPL, their pipeline and people wasn't like a surge of job openings. Um, so this kind of this new space new space race, you know, Kennedy also said that Torch has been passed to a new generation of Americans. So in a way that's happening right now with space force. A new generation is here is a digital generation. It's multi disciplinary generation. Could you take a minute and share, uh, for for our audience? And here at this symposium, um, the mission of Space Force and where you see it going because this truly is different. And I think anyone who's young e I mean, you know, if this was happening when I was in college would be like dropping everything. I'm in there, I think, cause there's so many areas thio jump into, um, it's >>intellectually challenging. >>It's intoxicating in some level. So can you share your thoughts? >>Yeah. Happy to do that. Of course. I I need to remind everybody that as a week ago I'm formally retired. So I'm not an official spokesman for US forces. But with that, you know, it said I did spend the last 18 months planning for it, designing and standing it up. And I'll tell you what's really exciting is you know, the commander of, uh, US Base Force General J. Raymond, who's the right leader at the right time. No question in my >>mind. But >>he said, I want to stand up the Space Force as the first fully digital service in the United States. Right? So he is trying >>to bake >>cloud baked cybersecurity, baked digital transformational processes and everything we did. And that was a guidance he gave us every day, every day. When we rolled in. He said, Remember, guys, I don't wanna be the same. I don't wanna be stale. I want new thinking, new capabilities and I want it all to be digital on. That's one of the reasons When we brought the first wave of people into the space force, we brought in space operations, right. People like me that flew satellites and launch rockets, we brought in cyber space experts, and we brought in intelligence experts. Those were the first three waves of people because of that, you know, perfect synergy between space and cyber and intel all wrapped in >>it. >>And so that was really, really smart. The other thing I'll say just about, you know, Kennedy's work. We're going to get to the moon. So here we are. Now we're going back to the Moon Project Artemus that NASA is working next man first woman on the moon by 2024 is the plan and >>then >>with designs to put a permanent presence on the moon and then lean off to march. So there was a lot to get excited about. I will tell you, as we were taking applications and looking at rounding out filling out the village in the U. S. Space Force, we were overwhelmed with the number of people that wanted, and that was a really, really good things. So they're off to a good start, and they're just gonna accomplishment major things. I know for sure. >>Preston, your thoughts on this new generation people out there were like I could get into this. This is a path. What's your what's your opinion on this? And what's your >>E could, uh, you so bold as to say >>that >>I feel like I'm a part of that new generation eso I grew up very much into space. Uh, looking at, um, listen to my, uh, folks I looked up to like Carl Sagan. Like like Neil Tyson. DeGrasse on did really feeling affinity for what What this country has done is for is a space program are focused on space exploration on bond. Through that, I got into our security, as it means from the military. And I just because I feel so fortunate that I could merge both of those worlds because of because of the generational, um, tailoring that we do thio promote space exploration and also the advent of cybersecurity expertise that is needed in this country. I feel like that. We are We are seeing a conversions of this too. I see a lot of young people really getting into space exploration. I see a lot of young people as well. Um uh, gravitating toward cybersecurity as a as a course of study. And to see those two worlds colliding and converse is something that's very near and dear to me. And again, I I feel like I'm a byproduct of that conversion, which is which, Really, Bothwell for space security in the future, >>we'll your great leader and inspiration. Certainly. Senior person as well. Congratulations, Steve. You know, young people motivational. I mean, get going. Get off the sidelines. Jump in Water is fine, Right? Come on in. What's your view on motivating the young workforce out there and anyone thinking about applying their skills on bringing something to the table? >>Well, look at the options today. You have civil space President represents you have military space. Uh, you have commercial space on and even, you know, in academia, the research, the potential as a as an aspiring cyber professional. All of you should be thinking about when we when we When? When we first invented the orbit, which eventually became the Internet, Uh, on Lee, we were, uh if all we had the insight to think Well, geez, you know whether the security implications 2030 years from now of this thing scaling on growing and I think was really good about today's era. Especially as Clint said, because we were building this space infrastructure with a cyber professionals at ground zero on dso the So the opportunity there is to look out into the future and say we're not just trying to secure independent her systems today and assure the free for all of of information for commerce. You know, the GPS signal, Uh, is Justus much in need of protection as anything else tied to our economy, But the would have fantastic mission. And you could do that. Uh, here on the ground. You could do it, uh, at a great companies like Amazon Web services. But you can also one of these states. Perhaps we go and be part of that contingency that goes and does the, uh, the se's oh job that that president has on the moon or on Mars and, uh, space will space will get boring within a generation or two because they'll just be seen as one continuum of everything we have here on Earth. And, uh, and that would be after our time. But in the meantime, is a very exciting place to be. And I know if I was in in my twenties, I wanna be, uh, jumping in with both feet into it. >>Yeah, great stuff. I mean, I think space is gonna be around for a long long time. It's super exciting and cybersecurity making it secure. And there's so many areas defeating on. Gentlemen, thank you very much for your awesome insight. Great panel. Um, great inspiration. Every one of you guys. Thank you very much for for sharing for the space and cybersecurity symposium. Appreciate it. Thank you very much. >>Thanks, John. Thank you. Thank you. Okay, >>I'm >>John for your host for the Space and Cybersecurity Symposium. Thanks for watching.

from around the globe it's thecube covering space and cyber security symposium 2020 hosted by cal poly hello and welcome to thecube's coverage we're here hosting with cal poly an amazing event space in the intersection of cyber security this session is defending satellite and space infrastructure from cyber threats got two great guests we've got major general john shaw combined four space component commander u.s space command and vandenberg air force base in california and roland cuello who's the ceo of maverick space systems gentlemen thank you for spending the time to come on to this session for the cal poly space and cyber security symposium appreciate it absolutely um guys defending satellites and space infrastructure is the new domain obviously it's a war warfighting domain it's also the future of the world and this is an important topic because we rely on space now for our everyday life and it's becoming more and more critical everyone knows how their phones work and gps just small examples of all the impacts i'd like to discuss with this hour this topic with you guys so if we can have you guys do an opening statement general if you can start with your opening statement we'll take it from there thanks john and greetings from vandenberg air force base we are just down the road from cal poly here on the central coast of california and uh very proud to be part of this uh effort and part of the partnership that we have with with cal poly on a number of fronts um i should uh so in in my job here i actually uh have two hats that i wear and it's i think worth talking briefly about those to set the context for our discussion you know we had two major organizational events within our department of defense with regard to space last year in 2019 and probably the one that made the most headlines was the stand-up of the united states space force that happened uh december 20th last year and again momentous the first new branch in our military since 1947 uh and uh it is a it's just over nine months old now as we're making this recording uh and already we're seeing a lot of change uh with regard to how we're approaching uh organizing training and equipping on a service side or space capabilities and so i uh in that with regard to the space force the hat i wear there is commander of space operations command that was what was once 14th air force when we were still part of the air force here at vandenberg and in that role i'm responsible for the operational capabilities that we bring to the joint warfighter and to the world from a space perspective didn't make quite as many headlines but another major change that happened last year was the uh the reincarnation i guess i would say of united states space command and that is a combatant command it's how our department of defense organizes to actually conduct warfighting operations um most people are more familiar perhaps with uh central command centcom or northern command northcom or even strategic command stratcom well now we have a space com we actually had one from 1985 until 2002 and then stood it down in the wake of the 9 11 attacks and a reorganization of homeland security but we've now stood up a separate command again operationally to conduct joint space operations and in that organization i wear a hat as a component commander and that's the combined force-based component command uh working with other all the additional capabilities that other services bring as well as our allies that combined in that title means that uh i under certain circumstances i would lead an allied effort uh in space operations and so it's actually a terrific job to have here on the central coast of california uh both working the uh how we bring space capabilities to the fight on the space force side and then how we actually operate those capabilities it's a point of joint in support of joint warfighters around the world um and and national security interests so that's the context now what el i i also should mention you kind of alluded to john you're beginning that we're kind of in a change situation than we were a number of years ago and that space we now see space as a warfighting domain for most of my career going back a little ways most of my my focus in my jobs was making sure i could bring space capabilities to those that needed them bringing gps to that special operations uh soldier on the ground somewhere in the world bringing satellite communications for our nuclear command and control bringing those capabilities for other uses but i didn't have to worry in most of my career about actually defending those space capabilities themselves well now we do we've actually gone to a point where we're are being threatened in space we now are treating it more like any other domain normalizing in that regard as a warfighting domain and so we're going through some relatively emergent efforts to protect and defend our capabilities in space to to design our capabilities to be defended and perhaps most of all to train our people for this new mission set so it's a very exciting time and i know we'll get into it but you can't get very far into talking about all these space capabilities and how we want to protect and defend them and how we're going to continue their ability to deliver to warfighters around the globe without talking about cyber because they fit together very closely so anyway thanks for the chance to be here today and i look forward to the discussion general thank you so much for that opening statement and i would just say that not only is it historic with the space force it's super exciting because it opens up so much more challenges and opportunities for to do more and to do things differently so i appreciate that statement roland your opening statement your your job is to put stuff in space faster cheaper smaller better your opening statement please um yes um thank you john um and yes you know to um general shaw's point you know with with the space domain and the need to protect it now um is incredibly important and i hope that we are more of a help um than a thorn in your side um in terms of you know building satellites smaller faster cheaper um you know and um definitely looking forward to this discussion and you know figuring out ways where um the entire space domain can work together you know from industry to to us government even to the academic environment as well so first would like to say and preface this by saying i am not a cyber security expert um we you know we build satellites um and uh we launch them into orbit um but we are by no means you know cyber security experts and that's why um you know we like to partner with organizations like the california cyber security institute because they help us you know navigate these requirements um so um so i'm the ceo of um of maverick space systems we are a small aerospace business in san luis obispo california and we provide small satellite hardware and service solutions to a wide range of customers all the way from the academic environment to the us government and everything in between we support customers through an entire you know program life cycle from mission architecture and formulation all the way to getting these customer satellites in orbit and so what we try to do is um provide hardware and services that basically make it easier for customers to get their satellites into orbit and to operate so whether it be reducing mass or volume um creating greater launch opportunities or providing um the infrastructure and the technology um to help those innovations you know mature in orbit you know that's you know that's what we do our team has experienced over the last 20 years working with small satellites and definitely fortunate to be part of the team that invented the cubesat standard by cal poly and stanford uh back in 2000 and so you know we are in you know vandenberg's backyard um we came from cal poly san luis obispo um and you know our um our hearts are fond you know of this area and working with the local community um a lot of that success um that we have had is directly attributable um to the experiences that we learned as students um working on satellite programs from our professors and mentors um you know that's you know all you know thanks to cal poly so just wanted to tell a quick story so you know back in 2000 just imagine a small group of undergraduate students you know myself included with the daunting task of launching multiple satellites from five different countries on a russian launch vehicle um you know many of us were only 18 or 19 not even at the legal age to drink yet um but as you know essentially teenagers we're managing million dollar budgets um and we're coordinating groups um from around the world um and we knew that we knew what we needed to accomplish um yet we didn't really know um what we were doing when we first started um the university was extremely supportive um and you know that's the cal poly learn by doing philosophy um i remember you know the first time we had a meeting with our university chief legal counsel and we were discussing the need to to register with the state department for itar nobody really knew what itar was back then um and you know discussing this with the chief legal counsel um you know she was asking what is itar um and we essentially had to explain you know this is um launching satellites as part of the um the u.s munitions list and essentially we have a similar situation you know exporting munitions um you know we are in similar categories um you know as you know as weapons um and so you know after that initial shock um everybody jumped in you know both feet forward um the university um you know our head legal counsel professors mentors and the students um you know knew we needed to tackle this problem um because you know the the need was there um to launch these small satellites and um you know the the reason you know this is important to capture the entire spectrum of users of the community um is that the technology and the you know innovation of the small satellite industry occurs at all levels you know so we have academia commercial national governments we even have high schools and middle schools getting involved and you know building satellite hardware um and the thing is you know the the importance of cyber security is incredibly important because it touches all of these programs and it touches you know people um at a very young age um and so you know we hope to have a conversation today um to figure out you know how do we um create an environment where we allow these programs to thrive but we also you know protect and you know keep their data safe as well thank you very much roland appreciate that uh story too as well thanks for your opening statement gentlemen i mean i love this topic because defending the assets in space is is as obvious um you look at it but there's a bigger picture going on in our world right now and generally you kind of pointed out the historic nature of space force and how it's changing already operationally training skills tools all that stuff is revolving you know in the tech world that i live in you know change the world is a topic they use that's thrown around a lot you can change the world a lot of young people we have just other panels on this where we're talking about how to motivate young people changing the world is what it's all about with technology for the better evolution is just an extension of another domain in this case space is just an extension of other domains similar things are happening but it's different there's a huge opportunity to change the world so it's faster there's an expanded commercial landscape out there certainly government space systems are moving and changing how do we address the importance of cyber security in space general we'll start with you because this is real it's exciting if you're a young person there's touch points of things to jump into tech building hardware to changing laws and and everything in between is an opportunity and it's exciting and it's truly a chance to change the world how does the commercial government space systems teams address the importance of cyber security so john i think it starts with with the realization that as i like to say that cyber and space are bffs uh there's nothing that we do on the cutting edge of space that isn't heavy reliant heavily reliant on the cutting edge of cyber and frankly there's probably nothing on the cutting edge of cyber that doesn't have a space application and when you realize that you see how how closely those are intertwined as we need to move forward at at speed it becomes fundamental to to the to answering your question let me give a couple examples we one of the biggest challenges i have on a daily basis is understanding what's going on in the space domain those on the on the on the surface of the planet talk about tyranny of distance across the oceans across large land masses and i talk about the tyranny of volume and you know right now we're looking out as far as the lunar sphere there's activity that's extending out to the out there we expect nasa to be conducting uh perhaps uh human operations in the lunar environment in the next few years so it extends out that far when you do the math that's a huge volume how do you do that how do you understand what's happening in real time in within that volume it is a big data problem by the very definition of that that kind of effort to that kind of challenge and to do it successfully in the years ahead it's going to require many many sensors and the fusion of data of all kinds to present a picture and then analytics and predictive analytics that are going to deliver an idea of what's going on in the space arena and that's just if people are not up to mischief once you have threats introduced into that environment it is even more challenging so i'd say it's a big data problem that we'll be enjoying uh tackling in the years ahead a second example is you know we if i if i had to if we had to take a vote of what were the most uh amazing robots that have ever been designed by humans i think that spacecraft would have to be up there on the list whether it's the nasa spacecraft that explore other planets or the ones that we or gps satellites that that amazingly uh provide a wonderful service to the entire globe uh and beyond they are amazing technological machines that's not going to stop i mean all the work that roland talked about at the at the even even that we're doing it at the kind of the microsoft level is is putting cutting-edge technology into smaller packages you can to get some sort of capability out of that as we expand our activities further and further into space for national security purposes or for exploration or commercial or civil the the cutting edge technologies of uh artificial intelligence uh and machine to machine engagements and machine learning are going to be part of that design work moving forward um and then there's the threat piece as we try to as we operate these these capabilities how these constellations grow that's going to be done via networks and as i've already pointed out space is a warfighting domain that means those networks will come under attack we expect that they will and that may happen early on in a conflict it may happen during peace time in the same way that we see cyber attacks all the time everywhere in many sectors of of activity and so by painting that picture you kind of get you we start to see how it's intertwined at the very very base most basic level the cutting edge of cyber and cutting edge of space with that then comes the need to any cutting edge cyber security capability that we have is naturally going to be needed as we develop space capabilities and we're going to have to bake that in from the very beginning we haven't done that in the past as well as we should but moving forward from this point on it will be an essential ingredient that we work into all of our new capability roland we're talking about now critical infrastructure we're talking about new capabilities being addressed really fast so it's kind of chaotic now there's threats so it's not as easy as just having capabilities because you've got to deal with the threats the general just pointed out but now you've got critical infrastructure which then will enable other things down down the line how do you protect it how do we address this how do you see this being addressed from a security standpoint because you know malware these techniques can be mapped in as extended into into space and takeovers wartime peacetime these things are all going to be under threat that's pretty well understood i think people kind of get that how do we address it what's your what's your take yeah you know absolutely and you know i couldn't agree more with general shaw you know with cyber security and space being so intertwined um and you know i think with fast and rapid innovation um comes you know the opportunity for threats especially um if you have bad actors um that you know want to cause harm and so you know as a technology innovator and you're pushing the bounds um you kind of have a common goal of um you know doing the best you can um and you know pushing the technology balance making it smaller faster cheaper um but a lot of times what entrepreneurs and you know small businesses and supply chains um are doing and don't realize it is a lot of these components are dual use right i mean you could have a very benign commercial application but then a small you know modification to it and turn it into a military application and if you do have these bad actors they can exploit that and so you know i think the the big thing is um creating a organization that is you know non-biased that just wants to kind of level the playing field for everybody to create a set standard for cyber security in space i think you know one group that would be perfect for that you know is um cci um you know they understand both the cybersecurity side of things and they also have you know at cal poly um you know the the small satellite group um and you know just having kind of a a clearinghouse or um an agency where um can provide information that is free um you know you don't need a membership for and to be able to kind of collect that but also you know reach out to the entire value chain you know for a mission and um making them aware um of you know what potential capabilities are and then how it might um be you know potentially used as a weapon um and you know keeping them informed because i think you know the the vast majority of people in the space industry just want to do the right thing and so how do we get that information free flowing to you know to the us government so that they can take that information create assessments and be able to not necessarily um stop threats from occurring presently but identify them long before that they would ever even happen um yeah that's you know general i want to i want to follow up on that real quick before we go to the next talk track critical infrastructure um you mentioned you know across the oceans long distance volume you know when you look at the physical world you know you had you know power grids here united states you had geography you had perimeters uh the notion of a perimeter and the moat this is and then you had digital comes in then you have we saw software open up and essentially take down this idea of a perimeter and from a defense standpoint and that everything changed and we had to fortify those critical assets uh in the u.s space increases the same problem statement significantly because it's you can't just have a perimeter you can't have a moat it's open it's everywhere like what digital's done and that's why we've seen a slurge of cyber in the past two decades attacks with software so this isn't going to go away you need the critical infrastructure you're putting it up there you're formulating it and you've got to protect it how do you view that because it's going to be an ongoing problem statement what's the current thinking yeah i i think my sense is a mindset that you can build a a firewall or a defense or some other uh system that isn't dynamic in his own right is probably not heading in the right direction i think cyber security in the future whether it's for our space systems or for other critical infrastructure is going to be a dynamic fight that happens at a machine-to-machine um a speed and dynamic um i don't think it's too far off where we will have uh machines writing their own code in real time to fight off attacks that are coming at them and by the way the offense will probably be doing the same kind of thing and so i i guess i would not want to think that the answer is something that you just build it and you leave it alone and it's good enough it's probably going to be a constantly evolving capability constantly reacting to new threats and staying ahead of those threats that's the kind of use case just to kind of you know as you were kind of anecdotal example is the exciting new software opportunities for computer science majors i mean i tell my young kids and everyone man it's more exciting now i wish i was 18 again it's so so exciting with ai bro i want to get your thoughts we were joking on another panel with the dod around space and the importance of it obviously and we're going to have that here and then we had a joke it's like oh software's defined everything it says software's everything ai and and i said well here in the united states companies had data centers and they went to the cloud and they said you can't do break fix it's hard to do break fix in space you can't just send a tech up i get that today but soon maybe robotics the general mentions robotics technologies and referencing some of the accomplishments fixing things is almost impossible in space but maybe form factors might get better certainly software will play a role what's your thoughts on that that landscape yeah absolutely you know for for software in orbit um you know there's there's a push for you know software-defined radios um to basically go from hardware to software um and you know that's that that's a critical link um if you can infiltrate that and a small satellite has propulsion on board you could you know take control of that satellite and cause a lot of havoc and so you know creating standards and you know that kind of um initial threshold of security um you know for let's say you know these radios you know communications and making that um available um to the entire supply chain to the satellite builders um and operators you know is incredibly key and you know that's again one of the initiatives that um that cci is um is tackling right now as well general i want to get your thoughts on best practices around cyber security um state of the art today uh and then some guiding principles and kind of how the if you shoot the trajectory forward what what might happen uh around um supply chain there's been many stories where oh we outsourced the chips and there's a little chip sitting in a thing and it's built by someone else in china and the software is written from someone in europe and the united states assembles it it gets shipped and it's it's corrupt and it has some cyber crime making i'm oversimplifying the the statement but this is what when you have space systems that involve intellectual property uh from multiple partners whether it's from software to creation and then deployment you get supply chain tiers what are some of the best practices that you see involving that don't stunt the innovation but continues to innovate but people can operate safely what's your thoughts yeah so on supply chain i think i think the symposium here is going to get to hear from lieutenant general jt thompson uh from space missile system center down in los angeles and and uh he's a he's just down the road from us there uh on the coast um and his team is is the one that we look to really focus on as he acquires and develop again bake in cyber security from the beginning and knowing where the components are coming from and and properly assessing those as you as you put together your space systems is a key uh piece of what his team is focused on so i expect we'll hear him talk about that when it talks to i think she asked the question a little more deeply about how do the best practices in terms of how we now develop moving forward well another way that we don't do it right is if we take a long time to build something and then you know general general jt thompson's folks take a while to build something and then they hand it over to to to me and my team to operate and then they go hands-free and and then and then that's you know that's what i have for for years to operate until the next thing comes along that's a little old school what we're going to have to do moving forward with our space capabilities and with the cyber piece baked in is continually developing new capability sets as we go we actually have partnership between general thompson's team and mine here at vandenberg on our ops floor or our combined space operations center that are actually working in real time together better tools that we can use to understand what's going on the space environment to better command and control our capabilities anywhere from military satellite communications to space domain awareness sensors and such and so and we're developing those capabilities in real time it's a dev and and with the security pieces so devsecops is we're practicing that in in real time i think that is probably the standard today that we're trying to live up to as we continue to evolve but it has to be done again in close partnership all the time it's not a sequential industrial age process while i'm on the subject of partnerships so general thompson's and team and mine have good partnerships it's part partnerships across the board are going to be another way that we are successful and that uh it means with with academia in some of the relationships that we have here with cal poly it's with the commercial sector in ways that we haven't done before the old style business was to work with just a few large um companies that had a lot of space experience well we need we need a lot of kinds of different experience and technologies now in order to really field good space capabilities and i expect we'll see more and more non-traditional companies being part of and and organizations being part of that partnership that will work going forward i mentioned at the beginning that um uh allies are important to us so everything that uh that role and i've been talking about i think you have to extrapolate out to allied partnerships right it doesn't help me uh as a combined force component commander which is again one of my jobs it doesn't help me if the united states capabilities are cyber secure but i'm trying to integrate them with capabilities from an ally that are not cyber secure so that partnership has to be dynamic and continually evolving together so again close partnering continually developing together from the acquisition to the operational sectors with as many um different sectors of our economy uh as possible are the ingredients to success general i'd love to just follow up real quick i was having just a quick reminder for a conversation i had with last year with general keith alexander who was does a lot of cyber security work and he was talking about the need to share faster and the new school is you got to share faster and to get the data you mentioned observability earlier you need to see what everything's out there he's a real passionate person around getting the data getting it fast and having trusted partners so that's not it's kind of evolving as i mean sharing is a well-known practice but with cyber it's sensitive data potentially so there's a trust relationship there's now a new ecosystem that's new for uh government how do you view all that and your thoughts on that trend of the sharing piece of it on cyber so it's i don't know if it's necessarily new but it's at a scale that we've never seen before and by the way it's vastly more complicated and complex when you overlay from a national security perspective classification of data and information at various levels and then that is again complicated by the fact you have different sharing relationships with different actors whether it's commercial academic or allies so it gets very very uh a complex web very quickly um so that's part of the challenge we're working through how can we how can we effectively share information at multiple classification levels with multiple partners in an optimal fashion it is certainly not optimal today it's it's very difficult even with maybe one industry partner for me to be able to talk about data at an unclassified level and then various other levels of classification to have the traditional networks in place to do that i could see a solution in the future where our cyber security is good enough that maybe i only really need one network and the information that is allowed to flow to the players within the right security environment um to uh to make that all happen as quickly as possible so you've actually uh john you've hit on yet another big challenge that we have is um is evolving our networks to properly share with the right people at the right uh clearance levels as at speed of war which is what we're going to need yeah and i wanted to call that out because this is an opportunity again this discussion here at cal poly and around the world is for new capabilities and new people to solve the problems and um it's again it's super exciting if you you know you're geeking out on this it's if you have a tech degree or you're interested in changing the world there's so many new things that could be applied right now roland will get your thoughts on this because one of the things in the tech trends we're seeing this is a massive shift all the theaters of the tech industry are are changing rapidly at the same time okay and it affects policy law but also deep tech the startup communities are super important in all this too we can't forget them obviously the big trusted players that are partnering certainly on these initiatives but your story about being in the dorm room now you got the boardroom and now you got everything in between you have startups out there that want to and can contribute and you know what's an itar i mean i got all these acronym certifications is there a community motion to bring startups in in a safe way but also give them a ability to contribute because you look at open source that proved everyone wrong on software that's happening now with this now open network concept the general is kind of alluding to which is it's a changing landscape your thoughts i know you're passionate about this yeah absolutely you know and i think um you know as general shaw mentioned you know we need to get information out there faster more timely and to the right people um and involving not only just stakeholders in the us but um internationally as well you know and as entrepreneurs um you know we have this very lofty vision or goal uh to change the world and um oftentimes um you know entrepreneurs including myself you know we put our heads down and we just run as fast as we can and we don't necessarily always kind of take a breath and take a step back and kind of look at what we're doing and how it's touching um you know other folks and in terms of a community i don't know of any formal community out there it's mostly ad hoc and you know these ad hoc communities are folks who let's say have you know was was a student working on a satellite um you know in college and they love that entrepreneurial spirit and so they said well i'm gonna start my own company and so you know a lot of the these ad hoc networks are just from relationships um that are that have been built over the last two decades um you know from from colleagues that you know at the university um i do think formalizing this and creating um kind of a you know clearinghouse to to handle all of this is incredibly important yeah um yeah there's gonna be a lot of entrepreneurial activity no doubt i mean just i mean there's too many things to work on and not enough time so i mean this brings up the question though while we're on this topic um you got the remote work with covid everyone's working remotely we're doing this remote um interview rather than being on stage works changing how people work and engage certainly physical will come back but if you looked at historically the space industry and the talent you know they're all clustered around the bases and there's always been these areas where you're you're a space person you're kind of working there and there's jobs there and if you were cyber you were 10 in other areas over the past decade there's been a cross-pollination of talent and location as you see the intersection of space general start with you you know first of all central coast is a great place to live i know that's where you guys live but you can start to bring together these two cultures sometimes they're you know not the same maybe they're getting better we know they're being integrated so general can you just share your thoughts because this is uh one of those topics that everyone's talking about but no one's actually kind of addressed directly um yeah john i i think so i think i want to answer this by talking about where i think the space force is going because i think if there was ever an opportunity or inflection point in our department of defense to sort of change culture and and try to bring in non-traditional kinds of thinking and and really kind of change uh maybe uh some of the ways that the department of defense has does things that are probably archaic space force is an inflection point for that uh general raymond our our chief of space operations has said publicly for a while now he wants the us space force to be the first truly digital service and uh you know what we what we mean by that is you know we want the folks that are in the space force to be the ones that are the first adopters or the early adopters of of technology um to be the ones most fluent in the cutting edge technological developments on space and cyber and and other um other sectors of the of of the of the economy that are technologically focused uh and i think there's some can that can generate some excitement i think and it means that we probably end up recruiting people into the space force that are not from the traditional recruiting areas that the rest of the department of defense looks to and i think it allows us to bring in a diversity of thought and diversity of perspective and a new kind of motivation um into the service that i think is frankly is is really exciting so if you put together everything i mentioned about how space and cyber are going to be best friends forever and i think there's always been an excitement in them you know from the very beginning in the american psyche about space you start to put all these ingredients together and i think you see where i'm going with this that really changed that cultural uh mindset that you were describing it's an exciting time for sure and again changing the world and this is what you're seeing today people do want to change world they want a modern world that's changing roy look at your thoughts on this i was having an interview a few years back with a tech entrepreneur um techie and we were joking we were just kind of riffing and we and i said everything that's on star trek will be invented and we're almost there actually if you think about it except for the transporter room you got video you got communicators so you know not to bring in the star trek reference with space force this is digital and you start thinking about some of the important trends it's going to be up and down the stack from hardware to software to user experience everything your thoughts and reaction yeah abs absolutely and so you know what we're seeing is um timeline timelines shrinking dramatically um because of the barrier to entry for you know um new entrants and you know even your existing aerospace companies is incredibly low right so if you take um previously where you had a technology on the ground and you wanted it in orbit it would take years because you would test it on the ground you would verify that it can operate in space in a space environment and then you would go ahead and launch it and you know we're talking tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars to do that now um we've cut that down from years to months when you have a prototype on the ground and you want to get it launched you don't necessarily care if it fails on orbit the first time because you're getting valuable data back and so you know we're seeing technology being developed you know for the first time on the ground and in orbit in a matter of a few months um and the whole kind of process um you know that that we're doing as a small business is you know trying to enable that and so allowing these entrepreneurs and small small companies to to get their technology in orbit at a price that is sometimes even cheaper than you know testing on the ground you know this is a great point i think this is really an important point to call out because we mentioned partnerships earlier the economics and the business model of space is doable i mean you do a mission study you get paid for that you have technology you can get stuff up up quickly and there's a cost structure there and again the alternative was waterfall planning years and millions now the form factors are different now again there may be different payloads involved but you can standardize payloads you got robotic arms all this is all available this brings up the congestion problem this is going to be on the top of mind the generals of course but you got the proliferation okay of these constellation systems you have more and more tech vectors i mean essentially that's malware i mean that's a probe you throw something up in space that could cause some interference maybe a takeover general this is the this is the real elephant in the room the threat matrix from new stuff and new configurations so general how does the proliferation of constellation systems change the threat matrix so i i think the uh you know i guess i'm gonna i'm gonna be a little more optimistic john than i think you pitched that i'm actually excited about these uh new mega constellations in leo um i'm excited about the the growing number of actors that are that are going into space for various reasons and why is that it's because we're starting to realize a new economic engine uh for the nation and for human society so the question is so so i think we want that to happen right when uh um when uh we could go to almost any any other domain in history and and and you know there when when air traffic air air travel started to become much much more commonplace with many kinds of uh actors from from private pilots flying their small planes all the way up to large airliners uh you know there there was a problem with congestion there was a problem about um challenges about uh behavior and are we gonna be able to manage this and yes we did and it was for the great benefit of society i could probably look to the maritime domain for similar kinds of things and so this is actually exciting about space we are just going to have to find the ways as a society and it's not just the department of defense it's going to be civil it's going to be international find the mechanisms to encourage this continued investment in the space domain i do think the space force uh will play a role in in providing security in the space environment as we venture further out as as economic opportunities emerge uh wherever they are um in the in the lunar earth lunar system or even within the solar system space force is going to play a role in that but i'm actually really excited about the those possibilities hey by the way i got to say you made me think of this when you talked about star trek and and and space force and our technologies i remember when i was younger watching the the next generation series i thought one of the coolest things because being a musician in my in my spare time i thought one of the coolest things was when um commander riker would walk into his quarters and and say computer play soft jazz and there would just be the computer would just play music you know and this was an age when you know we had we had hard uh um uh media right like how will that that is awesome man i can't wait for the 23rd century when i can do that and where we are today is is so incredible on those lines the things that i can ask alexa or siri to play um well that's the thing everything that's on star trek think about it almost invented i mean you got the computers you got the only thing really is the holograms are starting to come in you got now the transporter room now that's physics we'll work on that right right so there's a there is this uh a balance between physics and imagination but uh we have not exhausted either well um personally everyone that knows me knows i'm a huge star trek fan all the series of course i'm an original purist but at that level but this is about economic incentive as well roland i want to get your thoughts because you know the gloom and doom you got to think about the the bad stuff to make it good if i if i put my glass half full on the table there's economic incentives just like the example of the plane and the air traffic there's there's actors that are more actors that are incented to have a secure system what's your thoughts to general's comments around the optimism and and the potential threat matrix that needs to be managed absolutely so and you know one of the things that we've seen over the years um as you know we build these small satellites is a lot of the technology you know that the general is talking about um you know voice recognition miniaturized chips and sensors um started on the ground and i mean you know you have you know your iphone um that about 15 years ago before the first iphone came out um you know we were building small satellites in the lab and we were looking at cutting-edge state-of-the-art magnetometers and sensors um that we were putting in our satellites back then we didn't know if they were going to work and then um a few years later as these students graduate they go off and they go out to under you know other industries and so um some of the technology that was first kind of put in these cubesats in the early 2000s you know kind of ended up in the first generation iphone smartphones um and so being able to take that technology rapidly you know incorporate that into space and vice versa gives you an incredible economic advantage because um not only are your costs going down um because you know you're mass producing you know these types of terrestrial technologies um but then you can also um you know increase you know revenue and profit um you know by by having you know smaller and cheaper systems general let's talk about that for real quickly it's a good point i want to just shift it into the playbook i mean everyone talks about playbooks for management for tech for startups for success i mean one of the playbooks that's clear from in history is investment in r d around military and or innovation that has a long view spurs innovation commercially i mean just there's a huge many decades of history that shows that hey we got to start thinking about these these challenges and you know next you know it's in an iphone this is history this is not like a one-off and now with space force you get you're driving you're driving the main engine of innovation to be all digital you know we we riff about star trek which is fun but the reality is you're going to be on the front lines of some really new cool mind-blowing things could you share your thoughts on how you sell that people who write the checks or recruit more talent well so i first i totally agree with your thesis that the that you know national security well could probably go back an awful long way hundreds to thousands of years that security matters tend to drive an awful lot of innovation and creativity because um you know i think the the probably the two things that drive drive people the most are probably an opportunity to make money uh but only by beating that out are trying to stay alive um and uh and so i don't think that's going to go away and i do think that space force can play a role um as it pursues uh security uh structures you know within the space domain to further encourage economic investment and to protect our space capabilities for national security purposes are going to be at the cutting edge this isn't the first time um i think we can point back to the origins of the internet really started in the department of defense and with a partnership i should add with academia that's how the internet got started that was the creativity in order to to meet some needs there cryptography has its roots in security but we use it uh in in national security but now we use it in for economic reasons and meant and a host of other kinds of reasons and then space itself right i mean we still look back to uh apollo era as an inspiration for so many things that inspired people to to either begin careers in in technical areas or in space and and so on so i think i think in that same spirit you're absolutely right i guess i'm totally agreeing with your thesis the space force uh will be and a uh will have a positive inspirational influence in that way and we need to to realize that so when we are asking for when we're looking for how we need to meet capability needs we need to spread that net very far look for the most creative solutions and partner early and often with those that that can that can work on those when you're on the new frontier you've got to have a team sport it's a team effort you mentioned the internet just anecdotally i'm old enough to remember this because i remember the days that was going on and said the government if the policy decisions that the u.s made at that time was to let it go a little bit invisible hand they didn't try to commercialize it too fast and but there was some policy work that was done that had a direct effect to the innovation versus take it over and next you know it's out of control so i think you know i think this this just a cross-disciplinary skill set becomes a big thing where you need to have more people involved and that's one of the big themes of this symposium so it's a great point thank you for sharing that roland your thoughts on this because you know you got policy decisions we all want to run faster we want to be more innovative but you got to have some ops view now mostly ops people want things very tight very buttoned up secure the innovators want to go faster it's the yin and yang that's that's the world we live in how's it all balanced in your mind yeah um you know one of the things um that may not be apparently obvious is that you know the us government and department of um of defense is one of the biggest investors in technology in the aerospace sector um you know they're not the traditional venture capitalists but they're the ones that are driving technology innovation because there's funding um you know and when companies see that the us governments is interested in something businesses will will re-vector um you know to provide that capability and in the i would say the more recent years we've had a huge influx of private equity venture capital um coming into the markets to kind of help augment um you know the government investment and i think having a good partnership and a relationship with these private equity venture capitalists and the us government is incredibly important because the two sides you know can can help collaborate and kind of see a common goal but then also too on um you know the other side is you know there's that human element um and as general shaw was saying it's like not you know not only do companies you know obviously want to thrive and do really well some companies just want to stay alive um to see their technology kind of you know grow into what they've always dreamed of and you know oftentimes entrepreneurs um are put in a very difficult position because they have to make payroll they have to you know keep the lights on and so sometimes they'll take investment um from places where they may normally would not have you know from potentially foreign investment that could potentially you know cause issues with you know the you know the us supply chain well my final question is the best i wanted to say for last because i love the idea of human space flight i'd love to be on mars i'm not sure i'll be able to make it someday but how do you guys see the possible impacts of cyber security on expanding human space flight operations i mean general this is your wheelhouse this is urine command putting humans in space and certainly robots will be there because they're easy to go because they're not human but humans in space i mean you're starting to see the momentum the discussion uh people are are scratching that itch what's your take on that how do we see making this more possible well i i think we will see we will see uh commercial space tourism uh in the future i'm not sure how wide and large a scale it will become but we'll we will see that and um part of uh i think the mission of the space force is going to be probably to again do what we're doing today is have really good awareness of what's going on the domain to uh to to to ensure that that is done safely and i think a lot of what we do today will end up in civil organizations to do space traffic management and safety uh in in that uh arena um and uh um it is only a matter of time uh before we see um humans going even beyond the you know nasa has their plan the the artemis program to get back to the moon and the gateway initiative to establish a a space station there and that's going to be an exploration initiative but it is only a matter of time before we have um private citizens or private corporations putting people in space and not only for tourism but for economic activity and so it'll be really exciting to watch it would be really exciting and space force will be a part of it general roland i want to thank you for your valuable time to come on this symposium i really appreciate it final uh comment i'd love to you to spend a minute to share your personal thoughts on the importance of cyber security to space and we'll close it out we'll start with you roland yeah so i think that the biggest thing um i would like to try to get out of this you know from my own personal perspective is um creating that environment that allows um you know the the aerospace supply chain small businesses you know like ourselves be able to meet all the requirements um to protect um and safeguard our data but also um create a way that you know we can still thrive and it won't stifle innovation um you know i'm looking forward um to comments and questions um you know from the audience um to really kind of help um you know you know basically drive to that next step general final thoughts the importance of cyber security to space i'll just i'll go back to how i started i think john and say that space and cyber are forever intertwined they're bffs and whoever has my job 50 years from now or 100 years from now i predict they're going to be saying the exact same thing cyber and space are are intertwined for good we will always need the cutting edge cyber security capabilities that we develop as a nation or as a as a society to protect our space capabilities and our cyber capabilities are going to need space capabilities in the future as well general john shaw thank you very much roland cleo thank you very much for your great insight thank you to cal poly for putting this together i want to shout out to the team over there we couldn't be in person but we're doing a virtual remote event i'm john furrier with thecube and siliconangle here in silicon valley thanks for watching

from around the globe it's thecube covering space and cyber security symposium 2020 hosted by cal poly hello everyone welcome to the space and cyber security symposium 2020 hosted by cal poly where the intersection of space and security are coming together i'm john furrier your host with thecube here in california i want to welcome our featured guest lieutenant general john f thompson with the united states space force approach to cyber security that's the topic of this session and of course he's the commander of the space and missile system center in los angeles air force base also heading up space force general thank you for coming on really appreciate you kicking this off welcome to the symposium hey so uh thank you very much john for that very kind introduction also uh very much thank you to cal poly uh for this opportunity to speak to this audience today also a special shout out to one of the organizers uh dustin brun for all of his work uh helping uh get us uh to this point uh ladies and gentlemen as uh as uh john mentioned uh i'm jt thompson uh i lead the 6 000 men and women of the united states space forces space and missile system center which is headquartered here at los angeles air force base in el segundo if you're not quite sure where that's at it's about a mile and a half from lax this is our main operating location but we do have a number of other operating locations around the country with about 500 people at kirtland air force base in albuquerque new mexico uh and about another 500 people on the front range of the rockies uh between colorado springs and uh and denver plus a smattering of other much smaller operating locations nationwide uh we're responsible for uh acquiring developing and sustaining the united states space force's critical space assets that includes the satellites in the space layer and also on the ground layer our ground segments to operate those satellites and we also are in charge of procuring launch services for the u.s space force and a number of our critical mission partners across the uh department of defense and the intelligence community um just as a couple of examples of some of the things we do if you're unfamiliar with our work we developed and currently sustained the 31 satellite gps constellation that satellite constellation while originally intended to help with global navigation those gps signals have provided trillions of dollars in unanticipated value to the global economy uh over the past three decades i mean gps is everywhere i think everybody realizes that agriculture banking the stock market the airline industry uh separate and distinct navigation systems it's really pervasive across both the capabilities for our department of defense and capabilities for our economy and and individuals billions of individuals across our country and the planet some of the other work we do for instance in the communications sector uh secure communications satellites that we design and build that link america's sons and daughters serving in the military around the world and really enable real-time support and comms for our deployed forces and those of our allies we also acquire uh infrared missile warning satellites uh that monitor the planet for missile launches and provide advanced warning uh to the u.s homeland and to our allies uh in case some of those missile launches are uh nefarious um on a note that's probably a lot closer to home maybe a lot closer to home than many of us want to think about here in the state of california in 2018 smc jumped through a bunch of red tape and bureaucracy uh to partner with the u.s forest service during the two of the largest wildfires in the state's history the camp and woolsey fires in northern california as those fires spread out of control we created processes on the fly to share data from our missile warning satellites those are satellites that are systems that are purpose built to see heat sources from thousands of miles above the planet and we collaborated with the us forest service so that firefighters on the ground uh could track those fires more in real time and better forecast fires and where they were spreading thereby saving lives and and property by identifying hot spots and flare-ups for firefighters that data that we were able to working with our contractors pass to the u.s forest service and authorities here in california was passed in less than an hour as it was collected to get it into the hands of the emergency responders the first responders as quickly as possible and doing that in an hour greatly surpassed what was available from some of the other assets in the airborne and ground-based fire spotters it was really instrumental in fighting those fires and stopping their spread we've continued uh that involvement in recent years using multiple systems to support firefighters across the western u.s this fall as they battled numerous wildfires that unfortunately continue working together with the u.s forest service and with other partners uh we like to make uh we like to think that we made a difference here but there's still a lot more work to go and i think that we should always be asking ourselves uh what else can space data be used for and how can we more rapidly get that space data to uh stakeholders so that they can use it for for purposes of good if you will how else can we protect our nation how else can we protect our friends and allies um i think a major component of the of the discussion that we will have throughout this conference is that the space landscape has changed rapidly and continues to change rapidly um just over the past few years uh john and i were talking before we went live here and 80 nations now have uh space programs 80 nearly 80 space faring nations on the planet um if you just look at one mission area that uh the department of defense is interested in and that's small launch there are currently over a hundred different small launch companies uh within the u.s industrial base vying for commercial dod and civil uh payload capabilities uh mostly to low earth orbit it's it's just truly a remarkable time if you factor in those things like artificial intelligence and machine learning um where we're revolutionary revolutionizing really uh the ways that we generate process and use data i mean it's really remarkable in 2016 so if you think about this four years ago uh nasa estimated that there were 28 terabytes of information transiting their space network each day and that was four years ago um uh obviously we've got a lot of desire to work with a lot of the people in the audience of this congress or in this conference uh we need to work with big thinkers like many of you to answer questions on how best we apply data analytics to extract value and meaning from that data we need new generations of thinkers to help apply cutting edge edge theories of data mining cyber behaviorism and internet of things 2.0 it's just truly a remarkable time uh to be in the space business and the cyber aspects of the states of the space business are truly truly daunting and important to uh to all of us um integrating cyber security into our space systems both commercial and government is a mandate um it's no longer just a nice to have as the us space force and department of the air force leadership has said many times over the past couple of years space is becoming congested and contested and that contested aspect means that we've got to focus on cyber security uh in the same way that the banking industry and cyber commerce focus on uh cyber security day in and day out the value of the data and services provided is really directly tied to the integrity and availability of that data and services from the space layer from the ground control segments associated with it and this value is not just military it's also economic and it's not just american it's also a value for the entire world particularly particularly our allies as we all depend upon space and space systems your neighbors and friends here in california that are employed at the space and missile system center uh work with network defenders we work with our commercial contractors and our systems developers um our international allies and partners to try and build as secure and resilient systems as we can from the ground up that keep the global commons of space free and open for exploration and for commerce um as john and i were talking earlier before we came online there's an aspect of cyber security for space systems especially for some of our legacy systems that's more how do we bolt this on because we fielded those space systems a number of years ago and the the challenges of cyber security in the space domain have grown so we have a part that we have to worry about bolting it on but then we have to worry about building it in as we as we field new systems and build in a flexibility that that realizes that the cyber threat or the cyber security landscape will evolve over time it's not just going to be stagnant there will always be new vulnerabilities and new threat vectors that we always have to look at look uh as secretary barrett who is our secretary of the air force likes to say most americans use space before they have their first cup of coffee in the morning the american way of life really depends on space and as part of the united states space force we work with defense leaders our congress joint and international military teammates and industry to ensure american leadership in space i really thank you for this opportunity to address the audience today john and thanks so much to cal poly for letting me be one of the speakers at this event i really look forward to this for uh several months and so with that i look forward to your questions as we kind of move along here general thank you very much for the awesome uh introductory statement uh for the folks watching on the stream brigadier general carthan is going to be in the chat answering any questions feel free to chat away he's the vice commander of space and missile systems center he'll be available um a couple comments from your keynote before i get to my questions because it just jumped in my head you mentioned the benefits of say space but the fires in california we're living that here that's really real time that's a benefit you also mentioned the ability for more people launching payloads into space and i only imagine moore's law smaller faster cheaper applies to rockets too so i'm imagining you have the benefits of space and you have now more potential objects flying out sanctioned and maybe unsanctioned so you know is it going to be more rules around that i mean this is an interesting question because it's exciting space force but for all the good there is potentially bad out there yeah so i i john i think the uh i think the basics of your question is as space becomes more congested and contested is there a need for more international norms of how satellites fly in space what kind of basic features satellites have to perhaps deorbit themselves what kind of basic protections does do all satellites should all satellites be afforded as part of a peaceful global commons of space i think those are all fantastic questions and i know that u.s and many uh allied policy makers are looking very very hard at those kinds of questions in terms of what are the norms of behavior and how we uh you know how how we field and field is the military term but you know how we uh populate uh using civil or uh commercial terms uh that space layer at different altitudes uh low earth orbit mid mid-earth orbit geosynchronous earth orbit different kinds of orbits uh what the kind of mission areas we accomplish from space that's all things that need to be definitely taken into account as uh as the place gets a little bit not a little bit as the place gets increasingly more popular day in and day out well i'm super excited for space force i know that a new generation of young folks are really interested in it's an emerging changing great space the focus here at this conference is space and cyber security intersection i'd like to get your thoughts on the approach that space force is taking to cyber security and how it impacts our national goals here in the united states yeah yeah so that's a that's a great question john let me let me talk about in two uh two basic ways but number one is and and i know um some people in the audience this might make them a little bit uncomfortable but i have to talk about the threat right um and then relative to that threat i really have to talk about the importance of uh of cyber and specifically cyber security as it relates to that threat um the threats that we face um really represent a new era of warfare and that new era of warfare involves both space and cyber uh we've seen a lot of action in recent months uh from certain countries notably china and russia uh that have threatened what i referred to earlier as the peaceful global commons of space for example uh it through many unclassified sources and media sources everybody should understand that um uh the russians have been testing on orbit uh anti-satellite capabilities it's been very clear if you were following just the week before last the department of defense released its uh 2020 military and security developments involving the people's republic of china um uh and uh it was very clear that china is developing asats electronic jammers directed energy weapons and most relevant to today's discussion offensive cyber uh capabilities there are kinetic threats uh that are very very easy to see but a cyber attack against a critical uh command and control site or against a particular spacecraft could be just as devastating to the system and our war fighters in the case of gps and important to note that that gps system also impacts many civilians who are dependent upon those systems from a first response perspective and emergency services a cyber attack against a ground control site could cause operators to lose control of a spacecraft or an attacker could feed spoofed data to a system to mislead operators so that they send emergency services personnel to the to the wrong address right attacks on spacecraft on orbit whether directly via a network of intrusion or enabled through malware introduced during the systems production uh while we're building the satellite can [ __ ] or corrupt the data denial of service type attacks on our global networks obviously would disrupt our data flow and interfere with ongoing operations and satellite control i mean if gps went down i you know i hesitate to say it this way because we might elicit some screams from the audience but if gps went down a starbucks wouldn't be able to handle your mobile order uber drivers wouldn't be able to find you and domino's certainly certainly wouldn't be able to get there in 30 minutes or less right so with a little bit of tongue-in-cheek there from a military operations perspective it's dead serious um uh we have become accustomed in the commercial world to threats like lance ransomware and malware and those things have unfortunately become commonplace in commercial terrestrial networks and computer systems however what we're seeing is that our adversaries with the increased competition in space these same techniques are being retooled if you will to use against our national security space systems uh day in and day out um as i said during my opening remarks on the importance of cyber the value of these systems is directly tied to their integrity if commanders in the field uh firefighters in california or baristas in in starbucks can't trust the data they see they're receiving then that really harms their decision-making capabilities one of the big trends we've recently seen is the mood move towards proliferated leo uh uh constellations obviously uh spacex's uh starlink uh on the commercial side and on the military side the work that darpa and my organization smc are doing on blackjack and casino as well as some space transport layer constellation work that the space development agency is designing are all really really important types of mesh network systems that will revolutionize how we plan and field warfighting systems and commercial communications and internet providing systems but they're also heavily reliant on cyber security uh we've got to make sure that they are secured to avoid an accident or international damage uh loss of control of these constellations really could be catastrophic from both a mission perspective or from uh you know satellites tumbling out of low earth orbit perspective another trend is introductions in artificial intelligence and machine learning on board spacecraft or at the edge our satellites are really not so much hardware systems with a little software anymore in the commercial sector and in the defense sector they're basically flying boxes full of software right and we need to ensure the data that we're getting out of those flying boxes full of software are helping us base our decisions on accurate data and algorithms govern governing the right actions and that those uh that those systems are impervious to the extent possible uh to nefarious uh modifications so in summation a cyber security is vital element of everything in our national security space goals and i would argue for our national uh goals uh writ large including uh economic and information uh uh dimensions uh the space force leadership at all levels uh from uh some of the brand new second lieutenants that general raymond uh swore into the space force this morning uh ceremonially from the uh air force association's air space and cyberspace conference uh to the various highest levels general raymond uh general d t thompson myself and a number of other senior leaders in this enterprise we've got to make sure that we're all working together to keep cyber security at the forefront of our space systems because it they absolutely depend on it you know you mentioned uh hardware software threats opportunities challenges i want to ask you because you you got me thinking of the minute there around infrastructure i mean we've heard critical infrastructure you know grids here on on earth you're talking about critical infrastructure a redefinition of what critical infrastructure is an extension of what we have so i'd love to get your thoughts about space force's view of that critical infrastructure vis-a-vis the threat vectors because you know the term threat vectors has been kicked around in the cyber space oh yeah threat vectors they're always increasing the surface area well if the surface area is from space it's an unlimited surface area so you got different vectors so you got new critical infrastructure developing real time really fast and you got an expanded threat vector landscape putting that in perspective for the folks that aren't really inside the ropes on these critical issues how would you explain this and how would you talk about those two things well so i tell you um i just like um uh just like uh i'm sure people in the security side or the cyber security side of the business in the banking industry feel they feel like it's uh all possible threat vectors represent a dramatic and protect potentially existential threat to all of the dollars that they have in the banking system to the financial sector on the department of defense side we've got to have sort of the same mindset um that threat vector from to and through space against critical space systems ground segments the launch enterprise or transportation uh to orbit and the various different uh domains within uh within space itself like i mentioned before uh leo mio and geo-based satellites with different orbits all of the different mission areas that are accomplished from space that i mentioned earlier some that i didn't mention like weather tactical or wide band communications uh various new features of space control all of those are things that we have to worry about from a cyber security uh threat perspective and it's a it's a daunting challenge right now right yeah it's awesome and one of the things we've been following on the hardware side here in the on the ground is the supply chain we've seen you know malware being you know really put into really obscure hardware who manufactures it as being outsourced obviously government has restrictions but with the private sector uh you mentioned china and and the us kind of working together across these these peaceful areas but you got to look at the supply chain how does the supply chain the security aspect impact the mission of the u.s space force yeah yeah so so um how about another um just in terms of an example another kind of california-based historical example right um the very first u.s satellite uh explorer one was built by uh the jet propulsion uh laboratory folks uh not far from here in el segundo up in uh up in pasadena um that satellite when it was first built in the late 50s uh weighed a little bit over 30 pounds and i'm sure that each and every part was custom made and definitely made by u.s companies fast forward to today the global supply chain is so tightly coupled and frankly many industries are so specialized almost specialized regionally around the planet we focus every day to guarantee the integrity of every component that we put in our space systems is absolutely critical to the operations of those satellites and we're dependent upon them but it becomes more difficult and more difficult to understand the the heritage if you will of some of the parts that are used the thousands of parts that are used in some of our satellites that are literally school bus sized right the space industry especially uh national security space sector um uh is relatively small compared to other commercial industries and we're moving to towards using more and more parts uh from non-us companies uh cyber security and cyber awareness have to be baked in from the beginning if we're going to be using parts that maybe we don't necessarily um understand 100 percent like an explorer one uh the the lineage of that particular part the environmental difficulties in space are well known the radiation environment the temperature extremes the vacuum those require specialized component and the us military is not the only uh customer in that space in fact we're definitely not the dominant customer uh in space anymore all those factors require us along with our other government partners and many different commercial space organizations to keep a very close eye on our supply chains from a quality perspective a security perspective and availability um there's open source reporting on supply training intrusions from um many different breaches of commercial retailers to the infectious spread of uh you know compromised patches if you will and our adversaries are aware of these techniques as i mentioned earlier with other forms of attack considering our supply chains and development networks really becomes fair game for our adversaries so we have to uh take that threat seriously um between the government and industry sectors here in the u.s we're also working with our industry partners to enact stronger defenses and assess our own vulnerabilities last fall we completed an extensive review of all of our major contracts here at space and missile system center to determine the levels of cyber security requirements we've implemented across our portfolio and it sounds really kind of you know businessy geeky if you will you know hey we looked at our contracts to make sure that we had the right clauses in our contracts to address cyber security as dynamically as we possibly could and so we found ourselves having to add new language to our contracts to require system developers to implement some more advanced uh protective measures in this evolving cyber security environment so that data handling and supply chain perspective uh protections um from contract inception to launch and operations were taken into account uh cyber security really is a key performance parameter for us now it's as important as the the mission performance of the system it's as important as cost it's as important as schedule because if we deliver the perfect system on time and on cost uh it can perform that missile warning or that communications mis mission perfectly but it's not cyber secure if it doesn't have cyber protections built into it or the ability to implement mitigations against cyber uh threats then we've essentially fielded a shoe box in space that doesn't do the k the the war fighter or the nation uh any good um supply chain risk management is a is a major challenge for us uh we're doing a lot to coordinate with our industry partners uh we're all facing it head on uh to try and build secure and trusted components uh that keep our confidence as leaders firefighters and baristas uh as the case may be uh but it is a challenge and we're trying to rise to that challenge you know this so exciting this new area because it really touches everything you know talk about geeking out on on the tech the hardware the systems but also you put your kind of mba hat on you go what's the roi of the extra development and how you how things get built because the always the exciting thing for space geeks is like you're building cool stuff people love it's it's exciting but you still have to build and cyber security has proven that security has to be baked in from the beginning and be thought as a system architecture so you're still building things which means you've got to acquire things you got to acquire parts you got to acquire build software and and sustain it how is security impacting the acquisition and the sustainment of these systems for space yeah from initial development uh through planning for the acquisition design development fielding or production fielding and sustainment it impacts all aspects of of the life cycle john uh we simply especially from the concept of baking in cyber security uh we can't wait until something is built and then try and figure out how to make it cyber secure so we've moved way further uh towards working side by side with our system developers to strengthen cyber security from the very beginning of a system's development cyber security and the resilience associated with it really have to be treated as a key system attribute as i mentioned earlier equivalent with data rates or other metrics of performance we like to talk in uh in the space world about uh mission assurance and mission assurance has always you know sort of taken us as we as we technically geek out right mission assurance has always taken us to the will this system work in space right can it work in a vacuum can it work in you know as it as it uh you know transfers through uh the van allen radiation belt or through the the um the southern hemisphere's electromagnetic anomaly right will it work out in space and now from a resiliency perspective yeah it has to work in space it's got to be functional in space but it's also got to be resistant to these cyber security threats it's it's not just i think uh general dt thompson quoted this term it's not just widget assurance anymore it's mission assurance um uh how does that satellite uh operator that ground control segment operate while under attack so let me break your question a little bit uh just for purposes of discussion into into really two parts uh cyber uh for cyber security for systems that are new and cyber security uh for systems that are in sustainment or kind of old and legacy um obviously there's cyber vulnerabilities that threaten both and we really have to employ different strategies for for defense of of each one for new systems uh we're desperately trying to implement across the department of defense in particular in the space world a kind of a devsecops methodology and practice to delivering software faster and with greater security for our space systems here at smc we have a program called enterprise ground services which is a tool kit basically a collection of tools for common command and control of different satellite systems egs as we call it has an integrated suite for defensive cyber capabilities network operators can use these tools to gain unprecedented insight to data flows and to monitor space network traffic for anomalies or other potential indicators of of bad behavior malicious behavior if you will um uh it's rudimentary at this point but because we're using devsecops and that incremental development approach as we scale it it just becomes more and more capable you know every every product increment that we field here at uh at uh la air force base uh uh we have the united space space forces west coast software factory which we've dubbed kobayashi maru they're using those agile devops uh software development practices uh to deliver uh space awareness software uh to the combined space operations center uh affectionately called the csp that c-spock is just down the road uh from cal poly uh there in san luis obispo at vandenberg air force base they've securely linked the c-spock with other space operation centers around the planet our allies australia canada and the uk uh we're partnering with all of them to enable secure and enhanced combined space operations so lots of new stuff going on as we bake in new development uh capabilities for our our space systems but as i mentioned earlier we've got large constellations on satellite of satellites on orbit right now some of them are well in excess of a decade or more old on orbit and so the design aspects of those satellites are several decades old and so but we still have to worry about them because they're critical to our space capabilities um we've been working with an air force materiel command organization uh called crows which stands for the cyber resiliency office for uh weapon systems to assess all of those legacy platforms from a cyber security perspective and develop defensive strategies and potential hardware and software upgrades to those systems to better enable them to to live through this increasingly cyber security uh concerned era that we currently live in our industry partners have been critical to to both of those different avenues both new systems and legacy systems we're working closely with them to defend and upgrade uh national assets and develop the capabilities to do similar with uh with new national assets coming online the vulnerabilities of our space systems really kind of threaten the way we've done business in the past both militarily and in the case of gps economically the impacts of that cyber security risk are clear in our acquisition and sustainment processes but i've got to tell you it that as the threat vectors change as the vulnerabilities change we've got to be nimble enough agile enough to be able to bounce back and forth we can't just say uh many people in the audience are probably familiar with the rmf or the risk management framework approach to um to reviewing uh the cyber security of a system we can't have program managers and engineers just accomplish an rmf on a system and then hey high five we're all good uh it's a journey not a destination that's cyber security and it's a constant battle rhythm throughout a weapon systems life cycle not just a single event i want to get to this commercial business needs and your needs on the next question but before i go there you mentioned the agile and i see that clearly because when you have accelerated innovation cycles you've got to be faster and we saw this in the computer industry mainframes mini computers and then when you started getting beyond me when the internet hit and pcs came out you saw the big enterprises the banks and and government start to work with startups it used to be a joke in the entrepreneurial circles is that you know there's no way if you're a startup you're ever going to get a contract with a big business enterprise now that used to be for public sector and certainly uh for you guys so as you see startups out there and there's acquisition involved i'm sure would love to love to have a contract with space force there's an roi calculation where if it's in space and you have a sustainment view edit software you might have a new kind of business model that could be attractive to startups could you share your thoughts on the folks who want to be a supplier to you uh whether they're a startup or an existing business that wants to be agile but they might not be that big company we are john that's a fantastic question we are desperately trying to reach out to to those new space advocates to those startups to those um what we sometimes refer to within the department of defense those non-traditional uh defense contractors a couple of things just for uh thinking purposes on some of the things that we're trying to highlight um uh three years ago we created here at uh space and missile system center uh the space enterprise consortium uh to provide a platform uh a contractual vehicle really to enable us to rapidly prototype uh development of space systems and to collaborate uh between the u.s space force uh traditional defense contractors non-traditional vendors like startups and even some academic institutions uh spec as we call it space enterprise consortium uses a specialized contracting tool to get contracts uh awarded quickly many in the audience may be familiar with other transaction agreements and that's what spec is based on and so far in just three years spec has awarded 75 different uh prototyping contracts worth over 800 million dollars with a 36 reduction in time to award and because it's a consortium based competition for um for these kinds of prototyping efforts the barrier to entry for small and non-traditional for startups even for academic institutions to be able to compete for these kinds of prototypings is really lowered right um uh these types of partnerships uh that we've been working through on spec uh have really helped us work with smaller companies who might not have the background or expertise in dealing with the government or in working with cyber security uh for their systems both their developmental systems and the systems that they're designing and trying to build we want to provide ways for companies large and small to partner together and support um uh kind of mutually beneficial uh relationships between all um recently uh at the annual air force association uh conference that i mentioned earlier i moderated a panel with several space industry leaders uh all from big traditional defense contractors by the way and they all stressed the importance of building bridges and partnerships uh between major contractors in the defense industry and new entrants uh and that helps us capture the benefits of speed and agility that come with small companies and startups as well as the expertise and specialized skill sets of some of those uh larger contractors uh that we rely on day in and day out advanced cyber security protections and utilization of secure facilities are just a couple of things that i think we could be prioritizing more so in those collaborations as i mentioned earlier the spec has been very successful in awarding a number of different prototyping contracts and large dollar values and it's just going to get better right there's over 400 members of the space enterprise consortium 80 of them are non-traditional kinds of vendors and we just love working with them another thing that many people in the audience may be familiar with in terms of our outreach to innovators uh if you will and innovators that include uh cyber security experts is our space pitch day events right so we held our first event last november in san francisco uh where we awarded over a two-day period about 46 million dollars to 30 different companies um that had potentially game-changing ideas these were phase two small business innovative research efforts uh that we awarded with cash on the spot uh we're planning on holding our second space pitch day in the spring of 2021. uh we're planning on doing it right here in los angeles uh covent 19 environment permitting um and we think that these are you know fantastic uh uh venues for identifying and working with high-speed startups startups and small businesses who are interested in uh really truly partnering with the us air force it's a as i said before it's a really exciting time to be a part of this business uh and working with the innovation economy uh is something that the department of defense uh really needs to do in that um the innovation that we used to think was ours you know that 80 percent of the industrial-based innovation that came from the department of defense uh the the script has been flipped there and so now more than 70 percent uh particularly in space innovation uh comes from the commercial sector not from uh not from the defense business itself and so um that's a tsunami of uh investment and a tsunami of uh capability and i need to figure out how to get my surfboard out and ride it you know what i mean yeah i mean it's one of those things where the flip the script has been flipped but it's exciting because it's impacting everything are you talking about systems architecture you're talking about software you're talking about a business model you talk about devsecops from a technical perspective but now you have a business model innovation all the theaters of uh are exploding in innovation technical business personnel this brings up the workforce challenge you've got the cyber needs for the u.s space force there's probably a great roi model for new kinds of software development that could be priced into contracts that's a entrepreneurial innovation you got the the business model theater you've got the personnel how does the industry adopt and change you guys are clearly driving this how does the industry adjust to you yeah so um i think a great way to answer that question is to just talk about the kind of people that we're trying to prioritize in the u.s space force from a from an acquisition perspective and in this particular case from a from a cyber security perspective as i mentioned earlier it's the most exciting time to be in space programs uh really since the days of apollo um uh you know just to put it in terms that you know maybe have an impact with the audience uh from 1957 until today approximately 9 000 satellites uh have been launched from the various space faring countries around the planet uh less than two thousand of those nine thousand are still up on orbit and operational and yet in the new space regime um players like spacex have plans to launch you know 12 000 satellites for some of their constellations alone it really is a remarkable time in terms of innovation and fielding of space capabilities and all of those space capabilities whether they're commercial civil or defense are going to require appropriate cyber security uh protections it's just a really exciting time uh to be working in stuff like this and so uh folks like the folks in this audience who have a passion about space and a passion about cyber security are just the kind of people that we want to work with because we need to make sure our systems are are secure and resilient we need folks that have technical and computing expertise engineering skills to be able to design cybersecure systems that can detect and mitigate attacks uh but we also as you alluded to we need people that have that business and um you know business acumen human networking background so that we can launch the startups and work with the non-traditional businesses uh help to bring them on board help to secure both their data and our data and uh and and make sure our processes and systems are are free as much as possible from uh uh from attack um for preparation for for audience members who are young and maybe thinking about getting into this uh trade space um you gotta be smart on digital networking uh you gotta understand basic internet protocols concepts uh programming languages uh database design uh learn what you can from penetration or vulnerability testing and and uh risk assessment i will tell you this and i don't think he will i know he will not mind me telling you this but you've got to be a lifelong learner and so two years ago i'm at home one evening and i get a phone call on my cell phone and it's my boss the commander of air force space command uh general j raymond who is now currently the chief of space operations and he is on temporary duty flying overseas he lands where he's going and he first thing he does when he lands is he calls me and he goes jt um while i was traveling um i noticed that there were e-books available on the commercial airliner i was traveling on and there was an e-book on something called scrumming and agile devsecops and i read it have you read it um and i said no sir but if you tell me what the title of the book is i will read it and so i got to go to my staff meeting um you know the very next week the next time we had a staff meeting and tell everybody in the stab meeting hey if the four star and the three star can read the book about scrumming then i'm pretty sure all of you around this table and all our lieutenants and our captains our gs13s all of our government employees can get smart on uh the scrumming development process and interestingly as another side i had a telephone call with him last year during the holidays where he was trying to take some leave and i said sir what are you up to today are you are you you know making eggnog for the event tonight or whatever and the chief of space operations told me no i'm trying to teach myself python i'm at lesson two and it's not going so well but i'm i'm gonna figure this out and so that kind of thing if the chief of staff or the you know the the the chief of space operations can prioritize scrumming and python language and innovation in his daily schedule then we're definitely looking for other people who can do that and we'll just say lower levels of rank uh throughout our entire space force enterprise um look i i we don't need to need people that can code a satellite from scratch but we need to know we need to have people that have a basic grasp of the programming basics and cyber security requirements and that can turn those things into into meaningful actions obviously in the space domain things like basic physics and orbital mechanics are also important uh space is not an intuitive uh domain so under understanding how things survive uh on orbit is really critical to making the right design and operational decisions and you know i know there's probably a lot because of this conference i know there's a probably a whole lot of high-speed cyber security experts out in the audience and i need those people in the u.s space force the the country is counting on it but i wouldn't discount having people that are just cyber aware or cyber savvy right i have contracting officers and logisticians and program managers and they don't have to be high-end cyber security experts but they have to be aware enough about it to be able to implement cyber security protections um into our space system so the skill set is is really really broad um our adversaries are pouring billions of dollars into uh define designing uh and fielding offensive and destructive space cyber security weapons right they've repeatedly shown really a blatant disregard of safety and international norms for good behavior on orbit and the cyber security aspects of our space systems is really a key battleground going forward so that we can maintain that as i mentioned before peaceful uh global commons of space we really need all hands on deck if you're interested in helping in uniform if you're interested in helping uh not in uniform uh but as a government employee a commercial or civil employee to help us make cyber security more important uh or more cape more able to be developed for our space systems then we'd really love to uh to work with you or have you on the team to build that safe and secure future for our space systems lieutenant general john thompson great insight thank you for sharing all that awesome stories too and motivation for the young next generation the united states space force approach of cyber security really amazing talk thank you for your time final parting question is as you look out and you had your magic wand what's your view for the next few years in terms of things that we could accomplish it's a super exciting time what do you hope for so um um first of all john thanks to you and and thanks to cal poly uh for the invitation and and thanks to everybody for uh for their interest in cyber security especially as it relates to space systems that's here at the conference um uh there's a quote and i'll read it here uh from uh bernard schriever who was the uh the founder if you will uh a legend in uh dod space the founder of the western development division which was a predecessor organization to space and missile systems center general shrever i think captures the essence of what how we see the next couple of years the world has an ample supply of people who can always come up with a dozen good reasons why new ideas will not work and should not be tried but the people who produce progress are breed apart they have the imagination the courage and the persistence to find solutions and so i think if you're hoping that the next few years of space innovation and cyber security innovation are going to be a pony ride at the county fair then perhaps you should look for another line of work because i think the next few years in space and cyber security innovation are going to be more like a rodeo um and a very dynamic rodeo as it goes it is a an awesome privilege to be part of this ecosystem it's really an honor for me to um to be able to play some small role uh in the space ecosystem and trying to improve it uh while i'm trying to improve the chances of uh of the united states of america in a uh in a space war fighting uh uh environment um and so i thank all of you for uh participating today and for this little bit of time that you've allowed me to share with you thank you sir thank you for your leadership and thank you for the for the time for this awesome event space and cyber security symposium 2020 i'm john furrier on behalf of cal poly thanks for watching [Music]

>> Announcer: From around the globe, it's "theCUBE" covering Space and Cybersecurity Symposium 2020 hosted by Cal Poly. >> I want to welcome to theCUBE's coverage, we're here hosting with Cal Poly an amazing event, space and the intersection of cyber security. This session is Defending Satellite and Space Infrastructure from Cyber Threats. We've got two great guests. We've got Major General John Shaw of combined force space component commander, U.S. space command at Vandenberg Air Force Base in California and Roland Coelho, who's the CEO of Maverick Space Systems. Gentlemen, thank you for spending the time to come on to this session for the Cal Poly Space and Cybersecurity Symposium. Appreciate it. >> Absolutely. >> Guys defending satellites and space infrastructure is the new domain, obviously it's a war-fighting domain. It's also the future of the world. And this is an important topic because we rely on space now for our everyday life and it's becoming more and more critical. Everyone knows how their phones work and GPS, just small examples of all the impacts. I'd like to discuss with this hour, this topic with you guys. So if we can have you guys do an opening statement. General if you can start with your opening statement, we'll take it from there. >> Thanks John and greetings from Vandenberg Air Force Base. We are just down the road from Cal Poly here on the central coast of California, and very proud to be part of this effort and part of the partnership that we have with Cal Poly on a number of fronts. In my job here, I actually have two hats that I wear and it's I think, worth talking briefly about those to set the context for our discussion. You know, we had two major organizational events within our Department of Defense with regard to space last year in 2019. And probably the one that made the most headlines was the standup of the United States Space Force. That happened December 20th, last year, and again momentous, the first new branch in our military since 1947. And it's just over nine months old now, as we're makin' this recording. And already we're seein' a lot of change with regard to how we are approaching organizing, training, and equipping on a service side for space capabilities. And so, with regard to the Space Force, the hat I wear there is Commander of Space Operations Command. That was what was once 14th Air Force, when we were still part of the Air Force here at Vandenberg. And in that role, I'm responsible for the operational capabilities that we bring to the joint warfighter and to the world from a space perspective. Didn't make quite as many headlines, but another major change that happened last year was the reincarnation, I guess I would say, of United States Space Command. And that is a combatant command. It's how our Department of Defense organizes to actually conduct war-fighting operations. Most people are more familiar perhaps with Central Command, CENTCOM or Northern Command, NORTHCOM, or even Strategic Command, STRATCOM. Well, now we have a SPACECOM. We actually had one from 1985 until 2002, and then stood it down in the wake of the 9/11 attacks and a reorganization of Homeland Security. But we've now stood up a separate command again operationally, to conduct joint space operations. And in that organization, I wear a hat as a component commander, and that's the combined force-based component command working with other, all the additional capabilities that other services bring, as well as our allies. The combined in that title means that under certain circumstances, I would lead in an allied effort in space operations. And so it's actually a terrific job to have here on the central coast of California. Both working how we bring space capabilities to the fight on the Space Force side, and then how we actually operate those capabilities in support of joint warfighters around the world and national security interests. So that's the context. Now what also I should mention and you kind of alluded to John at your beginning, we're kind of in a changed situation than we were a number of years ago, in that we now see space as a war-fighting domain. For most of my career, goin' back a little ways, most of my focus in my jobs was making sure I could bring space capabilities to those that needed them. Bringing GPS to that special operations soldier on the ground somewhere in the world, bringing satellite communications for our nuclear command and control, bringing those capabilities for other uses. But I didn't have to worry in most of my career, about actually defending those space capabilities themselves. Well, now we do. We've actually gone to a point where we're are being threatened in space. We now are treating it more like any other domain, normalizing in that regard as a war-fighting domain. And so we're going through some relatively emergent efforts to protect and defend our capabilities in space, to design our capabilities to be defended, and perhaps most of all, to train our people for this new mission set. So it's a very exciting time, and I know we'll get into it, but you can't get very far into talking about all these space capabilities and how we want to protect and defend them and how we're going to continue their ability to deliver to warfighters around the globe, without talking about cyber, because they fit together very closely. So anyway, thanks for the chance to be here today. And I look forward to the discussion. >> General, thank you so much for that opening statement. And I would just say that not only is it historic with the Space Force, it's super exciting because it opens up so much more challenges and opportunities to do more and to do things differently. So I appreciate that statement. Roland in your opening statement. Your job is to put stuff in space, faster, cheaper, smaller, better, your opening statement, please. >> Yes, thank you, John. And yes, to General Shaw's point with the space domain and the need to protect it now is incredibly important. And I hope that we are more of a help than a thorn in your side in terms of building satellites smaller, faster, cheaper. Definitely looking forward to this discussion and figuring out ways where the entire space domain can work together, from industry to U.S. government, even to the academic environment as well. So first, I would like to say, and preface this by saying, I am not a cybersecurity expert. We build satellites and we launch them into orbit, but we are by no means cybersecurity experts. And that's why we like to partner with organizations like the California Cybersecurity Institute because they help us navigate these requirements. So I'm the CEO of Maverick Space Systems. We are a small aerospace business in San Luis Obispo, California. And we provide small satellite hardware and service solutions to a wide range of customers. All the way from the academic environment to the U.S. government and everything in between. We support customers through an entire program life cycle, from mission architecture and formulation, all the way to getting these customer satellites in orbit. And so what we try to do is provide hardware and services that basically make it easier for customers to get their satellites into orbit and to operate. So whether it be reducing mass or volume, creating greater launch opportunities, or providing the infrastructure and the technology to help those innovations mature in orbit, that's what we do. Our team has experience over the last 20 years, working with small satellites. And I'm definitely fortunate to be part of the team that invented the CubeSat standard by Cal Poly and Stanford back in 2000. And so, we are in VandenBerg's backyard. We came from Cal Poly San Luis Obispo and our hearts are fond of this area, and working with the local community. A lot of that success that we have had is directly attributable to the experiences that we learned as students, working on satellite programs from our professors and mentors. And that's all thanks to Cal Poly. So just wanted to tell a quick story. So back in 2000, just imagine a small group of undergraduate students, myself included, with the daunting task of launching multiple satellites from five different countries on a Russian launch vehicle. Many of us were only 18 or 19, not even at the legal age to drink yet, but as essentially teenagers we were managing million-dollar budgets. And we were coordinating groups from around the world. And we knew what we needed to accomplish, yet we didn't really know what we were doing when we first started. The university was extremely supportive and that's the Cal Poly learn-by-doing philosophy. I remember the first time we had a meeting with our university chief legal counsel, and we were discussing the need to register with the State Department for ITAR. Nobody really knew what ITAR was back then. And discussing this with the chief legal counsel, she was asking, "What is ITAR?" And we essentially had to explain, this is, launching satellites is part of the U.S. munitions list. And essentially we had a similar situation exporting munitions. We are in similar categories as weapons. And so, after that initial shock, everybody jumped in both feet forward, the university, our head legal counsel, professors, mentors, and the students knew we needed to tackle this problem because the need was there to launch these small satellites. And the reason this is important to capture the entire spectrum of users of the community, is that the technology and the innovation of the small satellite industry occurs at all levels, so we have academia, commercial, national governments. We even have high schools and middle schools getting involved and building satellite hardware. And the thing is the importance of cybersecurity is incredibly important because it touches all of these programs and it touches people at a very young age. And so, we hope to have a conversation today to figure out how do we create an environment where we allow these programs to thrive, but we also protect and keep their data safe as well. >> Thank you very much Roland. Appreciate that a story too as well. Thanks for your opening statement. Gentlemen, I mean I love this topic because defending the assets in space is obvious, if you look at it. But there's a bigger picture going on in our world right now. And general, you kind of pointed out the historic nature of Space Force and how it's changing already, operationally, training, skills, tools, all that stuff is evolving. You know in the tech world that I live in, change the world is a topic they use, gets thrown around a lot, you can change the world. A lot of young people, and we have other panels on this where we're talkin' about how to motivate young people, changing the world is what it's all about technology, for the better. Evolution is just an extension of another domain. In this case, space is just an extension of other domains, similar things are happening, but it's different. There's huge opportunity to change the world, so it's faster. There's an expanded commercial landscape out there. Certainly government space systems are moving and changing. How do we address the importance of cybersecurity in space? General, we'll start with you because this is real, it's exciting. If you're a young person, there's touch points of things to jump into, tech, building hardware, to changing laws, and everything in between is an opportunity, and it's exciting. And it is truly a chance to change the world. How does the commercial government space systems teams, address the importance of cybersecurity? >> So, John, I think it starts with the realization that as I like to say, that cyber and space are BFFs. There's nothing that we do on the cutting edge of space that isn't heavily reliant on the cutting edge of cyber. And frankly, there's probably nothing on the cutting edge of cyber that doesn't have a space application. And when you realize that and you see how closely those are intertwined as we need to move forward at speed, it becomes fundamental to answering your question. Let me give a couple examples. One of the biggest challenges I have on a daily basis is understanding what's going on in the space domain. Those on the surface of the planet talk about tyranny of distance across the oceans or across large land masses. And I talk about the tyranny of volume. And right now, we're looking out as far as the lunar sphere. There's activity that's extending out there. We expect NASA to be conducting perhaps human operations in the lunar environment in the next few years. So it extends out that far. When you do the math that's a huge volume. How do you do that? How do you understand what's happening in real time within that volume? It is a big data problem by the very definition of that kind of effort and that kind of challenge. And to do it successfully in the years ahead, it's going to require many, many sensors and the fusion of data of all kinds, to present a picture and then analytics and predictive analytics that are going to deliver an idea of what's going on in the space arena. And that's just if people are not up to mischief. Once you have threats introduced into that environment, it is even more challenging. So I'd say it's a big data problem that we'll enjoy tackling in the years ahead. Now, a second example is, if we had to take a vote of what were the most amazing robots that have ever been designed by humans, I think that spacecraft would have to be up there on the list. Whether it's the NASA spacecraft that explore other planets, or GPS satellites that amazingly provide a wonderful service to the entire globe and beyond. They are amazing technological machines. That's not going to stop. I mean, all the work that Roland talked about, even that we're doin' at the kind of the microsat level is putting cutting-edge technology into small a package as you can to get some sort of capability out of that. As we expand our activities further and further into space for national security purposes, or for exploration or commercial or civil, the cutting-edge technologies of artificial intelligence and machine-to-machine engagements and machine learning are going to be part of that design work moving forward. And then there's the threat piece. As we operate these capabilities, as these constellations grow, that's going to be done via networks. And as I've already pointed out space is a war-fighting domain. That means those networks will come under attack. We expect that they will and that may happen early on in a conflict. It may happen during peace time in the same way that we see cyber attacks all the time, everywhere in many sectors of activity. And so by painting that picture, we start to see how it's intertwined at the very, very most basic level, the cutting edge of cyber and cutting edge of space. With that then comes the need to, any cutting edge cybersecurity capability that we have is naturally going to be needed as we develop space capabilities. And we're going to have to bake that in from the very beginning. We haven't done that in the past as well as we should, but moving forward from this point on, it will be an essential ingredient that we work into all of our capability. >> Roland, we're talkin' about now, critical infrastructure. We're talkin' about new capabilities being addressed really fast. So, it's kind of chaotic now there's threats. So it's not as easy as just having capabilities, 'cause you've got to deal with the threats the general just pointed out. But now you've got critical infrastructure, which then will enable other things down the line. How do you protect it? How do we address this? How do you see this being addressed from a security standpoint? Because malware, these techniques can be mapped in, extended into space and takeovers, wartime, peace time, these things are all going to be under threat. That's pretty well understood, and I think people kind of get that. How do we address it? What's your take? >> Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I couldn't agree more with General Shaw, with cybersecurity and space being so intertwined. And, I think with fast and rapid innovation comes the opportunity for threats, especially if you have bad actors that want to cause harm. And so, as a technology innovator and you're pushing the bounds, you kind of have a common goal of doing the best you can, and pushing the technology bounds, making it smaller, faster, cheaper. But a lot of times what entrepreneurs and small businesses and supply chains are doing, and don't realize it, is a lot of these components are dual use. I mean, you could have a very benign commercial application, but then a small modification to it, can turn it into a military application. And if you do have these bad actors, they can exploit that. And so, I think that the big thing is creating a organization that is non-biased, that just wants to kind of level the playing field for everybody to create a set standard for cybersecurity in space. I think one group that would be perfect for that is CCI. They understand both the cybersecurity side of things, and they also have at Cal Poly the small satellite group. And just having kind of a clearing house or an agency where can provide information that is free, you don't need a membership for. And to be able to kind of collect that, but also reach out to the entire value chain for a mission, and making them aware of what potential capabilities are and then how it might be potentially used as a weapon. And keeping them informed, because I think the vast majority of people in the space industry just want to do the right thing. And so, how do we get that information free flowing to the U.S. government so that they can take that information, create assessments, and be able to, not necessarily stop threats from occurring presently, but identify them long before that they would ever even happen. Yeah, that's- >> General, I want to follow up on that real quick before we move to the next top track. Critical infrastructure you mentioned, across the oceans long distance, volume. When you look at the physical world, you had power grids here in the United States, you had geography, you had perimeters, the notion of a perimeter and a moat, and then you had digital comes in. Then you have, we saw software open up, and essentially take down this idea of a perimeter, and from a defense standpoint, and everything changed. And we have to fortify those critical assets in the U.S. Space increases the same problem statement significantly, because you can't just have a perimeter, you can't have a moat, it's open, it's everywhere. Like what digital's done, and that's why we've seen a surge of cyber in the past two decades, attacks with software. So, this isn't going to go away. You need the critical infrastructure, you're putting it up there, you're formulating it, and you got to protect it. How do you view that? Because it's going to be an ongoing problem statement. What's the current thinking? >> Yeah, I think my sense is that a mindset that you can build a firewall, or a defense, or some other system that isn't dynamic in its own right, is probably not headed in the right direction. I think cybersecurity in the future, whether it's for space systems, or for other critical infrastructure is going to be a dynamic fight that happens at a machine-to-machine speed and dynamic. I don't think that it's too far off where we will have machines writing their own code in real time to fight off attacks that are coming at them. And by the way, the offense will probably be doing the same kind of thing. And so, I guess I would not want to think that the answer is something that you just build it and you leave it alone and it's good enough. It's probably going to be a constantly-evolving capability, constantly reacting to new threats and staying ahead of those threats. >> That's the kind of use case, you know as you were, kind of anecdotal example is the exciting new software opportunities for computer science majors. I mean, I tell my young kids and everyone, man it's more exciting now. I wish I was 18 again, it's so exciting with AI. Roland, I want to get your thoughts. We were joking on another panel with the DoD around space and the importance of it obviously, and we're going to have that here. And then we had a joke. It's like, oh software's defined everything. Software's everything, AI. And I said, "Well here in the United States, companies had data centers and then they went to the cloud." And then he said, "You can do break, fix, it's hard to do break, fix in space. You can't just send a tech up." I get that today, but soon maybe robotics. The general mentions robotics technologies, in referencing some of the accomplishments. Fixing things is almost impossible in space. But maybe form factors might get better. Certainly software will play a role. What's your thoughts on that landscape? >> Yeah, absolutely. You know, for software in orbit, there's a push for software-defined radios to basically go from hardware to software. And that's a critical link. If you can infiltrate that and a small satellite has propulsion on board, you could take control of that satellite and cause a lot of havoc. And so, creating standards and that kind of initial threshold of security, for let's say these radios, or communications and making that available to the entire supply chain, to the satellite builders, and operators is incredibly key. And that's again, one of the initiatives that CCI is tackling right now as well. >> General, I want to get your thoughts on best practices around cybersecurity, state-of-the-art today, and then some guiding principles, and kind of how the, if you shoot the trajectory forward, what might happen around supply chain? There's been many stories where, we outsource the chips and there's a little chip sittin' in a thing and it's built by someone else in China, and the software is written from someone in Europe, and the United States assembles it, it gets shipped and it's corrupt, and it has some cyber, I'm making it up, I'm oversimplifying the statement. But this is what when you have space systems that involve intellectual property from multiple partners, whether it's from software to creation and then deployment. You got supply chain tiers. What are some of best practices that you see involving, that don't stunt the innovation, but continues to innovate, but people can operate safely. What's your thoughts? >> Yeah, so on supply chain, I think the symposium here is going to get to hear from General JT Thompson from space and missile system center down in Los Angeles, and he's just down the road from us there on the coast. And his team is the one that we look to to really focus on, as he fires and develops to again bake in cybersecurity from the beginning and knowing where the components are coming from, and properly assessing those as you put together your space systems, is a key piece of what his team is focused on. So I expect, we'll hear him talk about that. When it talks to, I think, so you asked the question a little more deeply about how do the best practices in terms of how we now develop moving forward. Well, another way that we don't do it right, is if we take a long time to build something and then General JT Thompson's folks take a while to build something, and then they hand it over to me, and my team operate and then they go hands free. And then that's what I have for years to operate until the next thing comes along. That's a little old school. What we're going to have to do moving forward with our space capabilities, and with the cyber piece baked in is continually developing new capability sets as we go. We actually have partnership between General Thompson's team and mine here at Vandenberg on our ops floor, or our combined space operation center, that are actually working in real time together, better tools that we can use to understand what's going on in the space environment to better command and control our capabilities anywhere from military satellite communications, to space domain awareness, sensors, and such. And we're developing those capabilities in real time. And with the security pieces. So DevSecOps is we're practicing that in real time. I think that is probably the standard today that we're trying to live up to as we continue to evolve. But it has to be done again, in close partnership all the time. It's not a sequential, industrial-age process. While I'm on the subject of partnerships. So, General Thompson's team and mine have good partnerships. It's partnerships across the board are going to be another way that we are successful. And that it means with academia and some of the relationships that we have here with Cal Poly. It's with the commercial sector in ways that we haven't done before. The old style business was to work with just a few large companies that had a lot of space experience. Well, we need a lot of kinds of different experience and technologies now in order to really field good space capabilities. And I expect we'll see more and more non-traditional companies being part of, and organizations, being part of that partnership that will work goin' forward. I mentioned at the beginning that allies are important to us. So everything that Roland and I have been talking about I think you have to extrapolate out to allied partnerships. It doesn't help me as a combined force component commander, which is again, one of my jobs. It doesn't help me if the United States capabilities are cybersecure, but I'm tryin' to integrate them with capabilities from an ally that are not cybersecure. So that partnership has to be dynamic and continually evolving together. So again, close partnering, continually developing together from the acquisition to the operational sectors, with as many different sectors of our economy as possible, are the ingredients to success. >> General, I'd love to just follow up real quick. I was having just a quick reminder for a conversation I had with last year with General Keith Alexander, who does a lot of cybersecurity work, and he was talking about the need to share faster. And the new school is you got to share faster to get the data, you mentioned observability earlier, you need to see what everything's out there. He's a real passionate person around getting the data, getting it fast and having trusted partners. So that's not, it's kind of evolving as, I mean, sharing's a well known practice, but with cyber it's sensitive data potentially. So there's a trust relationship. There's now a new ecosystem. That's new for government. How do you view all that and your thoughts on that trend of the sharing piece of it on cyber? >> So, I don't know if it's necessarily new, but it's at a scale that we've never seen before. And by the way, it's vastly more complicated and complex when you overlay from a national security perspective, classification of data and information at various levels. And then that is again complicated by the fact you have different sharing relationships with different actors, whether it's commercial, academic, or allies. So it gets very, very complex web very quickly. So that's part of the challenge we're workin' through. How can we effectively share information at multiple classification levels with multiple partners in an optimal fashion? It is certainly not optimal today. It's very difficult, even with maybe one industry partner for me to be able to talk about data at an unclassified level, and then various other levels of classification to have the traditional networks in place to do that. I could see a solution in the future where our cybersecurity is good enough that maybe I only really need one network and the information that is allowed to flow to the players within the right security environment to make that all happen as quickly as possible. So you've actually, John you've hit on yet another big challenge that we have, is evolving our networks to properly share, with the right people, at the right clearance levels at the speed of war, which is what we're going to need. >> Yeah, and I wanted to call that out because this is an opportunity, again, this discussion here at Cal Poly and around the world is for new capabilities and new people to solve the problems. It's again, it's super exciting if you're geeking out on this. If you have a tech degree or you're interested in changin' the world, there's so many new things that could be applied right now. Roland, I want to get your thoughts on this, because one of the things in the tech trends we're seeing, and this is a massive shift, all the theaters of the tech industry are changing rapidly at the same time. And it affects policy law, but also deep tech. The startup communities are super important in all this too. We can't forget them. Obviously, the big trusted players that are partnering certainly on these initiatives, but your story about being in the dorm room. Now you've got the boardroom and now you got everything in between. You have startups out there that want to and can contribute. You know, what's an ITAR? I mean, I got all these acronym certifications. Is there a community motion to bring startups in, in a safe way, but also give them ability to contribute? Because you look at open source, that proved everyone wrong on software. That's happening now with this now open network concept, the general was kind of alluding to. Which is, it's a changing landscape. Your thoughts, I know you're passionate about this. >> Yeah, absolutely. And I think as General Shaw mentioned, we need to get information out there faster, more timely and to the right people, and involving not only just stakeholders in the U.S., but internationally as well. And as entrepreneurs, we have this very lofty vision or goal to change the world. And oftentimes, entrepreneurs, including myself, we put our heads down and we just run as fast as we can. And we don't necessarily always kind of take a breath and take a step back and kind of look at what we're doing and how it's touching other folks. And in terms of a community, I don't know of any formal community out there, it's mostly ad hoc. And, these ad hoc communities are folks who let's say was a student working on a satellite in college. And they loved that entrepreneurial spirit. And so they said, "Well, I'm going to start my own company." And so, a lot of these ad hoc networks are just from relationships that have been built over the last two decades from colleagues at the university. I do think formalizing this and creating kind of a clearing house to handle all of this is incredibly important. >> And there's going to be a lot of entrepreneurial activity, no doubt, I mean there's too many things to work on and not enough time. I mean this brings up the question that I'm going to, while we're on this topic, you got the remote work with COVID, everyone's workin' remotely, we're doin' this remote interview rather than being on stage. Work's changing, how people work and engage. Certainly physical will come back. But if you looked at historically the space industry and the talent, they're all clustered around the bases. And there's always been these areas where you're a space person. You kind of work in there and the job's there. And if you were cyber, you were generally in other areas. Over the past decade, there's been a cross-pollination of talent and location. As you see the intersection of space, general we'll start with you, first of all, central coast is a great place to live. I know that's where you guys live. But you can start to bring together these two cultures. Sometimes they're not the same. Maybe they're getting better. We know they're being integrated. So general, can you just share your thoughts because this is one of those topics that everyone's talkin' about, but no one's actually kind of addressed directly. >> Yeah, John, I think so. I think I want to answer this by talkin' about where I think the Space Force is going. Because I think if there was ever an opportunity or an inflection point in our Department of Defense to sort of change culture and try to bring in non-traditional kinds of thinking and really kind of change maybe some of the ways that the Department of Defense does things that are probably archaic, Space Force is an inflection point for that. General Raymond, our Chief of Space Operations, has said publicly for awhile now, he wants the U.S. Space Force to be the first truly digital service. And what we mean by that is we want the folks that are in the Space Force to be the ones that are the first adopters, the early adopters of technology. To be the ones most fluent in the cutting edge, technologic developments on space and cyber and other sectors of the economy that are technologically focused. And I think there's some, that can generate some excitement, I think. And it means that we'll probably ended up recruiting people into the Space Force that are not from the traditional recruiting areas that the rest of the Department of Defense looks to. And I think it allows us to bring in a diversity of thought and diversity of perspective and a new kind of motivation into the service, that I think is frankly really exciting. So if you put together everything I mentioned about how space and cyber are going to be best friends forever. And I think there's always been an excitement from the very beginning in the American psyche about space. You start to put all these ingredients together, and I think you see where I'm goin' with this. That this is a chance to really change that cultural mindset that you were describing. >> It's an exciting time for sure. And again, changing the world. And this is what you're seeing today. People do want to change the world. They want a modern world that's changing. Roland, I'll get your thoughts on this. I was having an interview a few years back with a technology entrepreneur, a techie, and we were joking, we were just kind of riffing. And I said, "Everything that's on "Star Trek" will be invented." And we're almost there actually, if you think about it, except for the transporter room. You got video, you got communicators. So, not to bring in the "Star Trek" reference with Space Force, this is digital. And you start thinking about some of the important trends, it's going to be up and down the stack, from hardware to software, to user experience, everything. Your thoughts and reaction. >> Yeah, absolutely. And so, what we're seeing is timelines shrinking dramatically because of the barrier to entry for new entrants and even your existing aerospace companies is incredibly low, right? So if you take previously where you had a technology on the ground and you wanted it in orbit, it would take years. Because you would test it on the ground. You would verify that it can operate in a space environment. And then you would go ahead and launch it. And we're talking tens, if not hundreds of millions of dollars to do that. Now, we've cut that down from years to months. When you have a prototype on the ground and you want to get it launched, you don't necessarily care if it fails on orbit the first time, because you're getting valuable data back. And so, we're seeing technology being developed for the first time on the ground and in orbit in a matter of a few months. And the whole kind of process that we're doing as a small business is trying to enable that. And so, allowing these entrepreneurs and small companies to get their technology in orbit at a price that is sometimes even cheaper than testing on the ground. >> You know this is a great point. I think this is really an important point to call out because we mentioned partnerships earlier, the economics and the business model of space is doable. I mean, you do a mission study. You get paid for that. You have technology that you get stuff up quickly, and there's a cost structure there. And again, the alternative was waterfall planning, years and millions. Now the form factors are doing, now, again, there may be different payloads involved, but you can standardize payloads. You've got robotic arms. This is all available. This brings up the congestion problem. This is going to be on the top of mind of the generals of course, but you've got the proliferation of these constellation systems. You're going to have more and more tech vectors. I mean, essentially that's malware. I mean, that's a probe. You throw something up in space that could cause some interference. Maybe a takeover. General, this is the real elephant in the room, the threat matrix from new stuff and new configurations. So general, how does the proliferation of constellation systems change the threat matrix? >> So I think the, you know I guess I'm going to be a little more optimistic John than I think you pitched that. I'm actually excited about these new mega constellations in LEO. I'm excited about the growing number of actors that are going into space for various reasons. And why is that? It's because we're starting to realize a new economic engine for the nation and for human society. So the question is, so I think we want that to happen. When we could go to almost any other domain in history and when air travel started to become much, much more commonplace with many kinds of actors from private pilots flying their small planes, all the way up to large airliners, there was a problem with congestion. There was a problem about, challenges about behavior, and are we going to be able to manage this? And yes we did. And it was for the great benefit of society. I could probably look to the maritime domain for similar kinds of things. And so this is actually exciting about space. We are just going to have to find the ways as a society, and it's not just the Department of Defense, it's going to be civil, it's going to be international, find the mechanisms to encourage this continued investment in the space domain. I do think that Space Force will play a role in providing security in the space environment, as we venture further out, as economic opportunities emerge, wherever they are in the lunar, Earth, lunar system, or even within the solar system. Space Force is going to play a role in that. But I'm actually really excited about those possibilities. Hey, by the way, I got to say, you made me think of this when you talked about "Star Trek" and Space Force and our technologies, I remember when I was younger watchin' the Next Generation series. I thought one of the coolest things, 'cause bein' a musician in my spare time, I thought one of the coolest things was when Commander Riker would walk into his quarters and say, "Computer play soft jazz." And there would just be, the computer would just play music. And this was an age when we had hard media. Like how will that, that is awesome. Man, I can't wait for the 23rd century when I can do that. And where we are today is so incredible on those lines. The things that I can ask Alexa or Siri to play. >> Well that's the thing, everything that's on "Star Trek," think about it, it's almost invented. I mean, you got the computers, you got, the only thing really is, holograms are startin' to come in, you got, now the transporter room. Now that's physics. We'll work on that. >> So there is this balance between physics and imagination, but we have not exhausted either. >> Well, firstly, everyone that knows me knows I'm a huge "Star Trek" fan, all the series. Of course, I'm an original purist, but at that level. But this is about economic incentive as well. Roland, I want to get your thoughts, 'cause the gloom and doom, we got to think about the bad stuff to make it good. If I put my glass half full on the table, this economic incentives, just like the example of the plane and the air traffic. There's more actors that are incented to have a secure system. What's your thoughts to general's comments around the optimism and the potential threat matrix that needs to be managed. >> Absolutely, so one of the things that we've seen over the years, as we build these small satellites is a lot of that technology that the General's talking about, voice recognition, miniaturized chips, and sensors, started on the ground. And I mean, you have your iPhone, that, about 15 years ago before the first iPhone came out, we were building small satellites in the lab and we were looking at cutting-edge, state-of-the-art magnetometers and sensors that we were putting in our satellites back then. We didn't know if they were going to work. And then a few years later, as these students graduate, they go off and they go out to other industries. And so, some of the technology that was first kind of put in these CubeSats in the early 2000s, kind of ended up in the first generation iPhone, smartphones. And so being able to take that technology, rapidly incorporate that into space and vice versa gives you an incredible economic advantage. Because not only are your costs going down because you're mass producing these types of terrestrial technologies, but then you can also increase revenue and profit by having smaller and cheaper systems. >> General, let's talk about that real quickly, that's a good point, I want to just shift it into the playbook. I mean, everyone talks about playbooks for management, for tech, for startups, for success. I mean, one of the playbooks that's clear from your history is investment in R&D around military and/or innovation that has a long view, spurs innovation, commercially. I mean, just there's a huge, many decades of history that shows that, hey we got to start thinking about these challenges. And next thing you know it's in an iPhone. This is history, this is not like a one off. And now with Space Force you're driving the main engine of innovation to be all digital. You know, we riff about "Star Trek" which is fun, the reality is you're going to be on the front lines of some really new, cool, mind-blowing things. Could you share your thoughts on how you sell that to the people who write the checks or recruit more talent? >> First, I totally agree with your thesis that national security, well, could probably go back an awful long way, hundreds to thousands of years, that security matters tend to drive an awful lot of innovation and creativity. You know I think probably the two things that drive people the most are probably an opportunity to make money, but beating that out are trying to stay alive. And so, I don't think that's going to go away. And I do think that Space Force can play a role as it pursues security structures, within the space domain to further encourage economic investment and to protect our space capabilities for national security purposes, are going to be at the cutting edge. This isn't the first time. I think we can point back to the origins of the internet, really started in the Department of Defense, with a partnership I should add, with academia. That's how the internet got started. That was the creativity in order to meet some needs there. Cryptography has its roots in security, in national security, but now we use it for economic reasons and a host of other kinds of reasons. And then space itself, I mean, we still look back to Apollo era as an inspiration for so many things that inspired people to either begin careers in technical areas or in space and so on. So I think in that same spirit, you're absolutely right. I guess I'm totally agreeing with your thesis. The Space Force will have a positive, inspirational influence in that way. And we need to realize that. So when we are asking for, when we're looking for how we need to meet capability needs, we need to spread that net very far, look for the most creative solutions and partner early and often with those that can work on those. >> When you're on the new frontier, you got to have a team sport, it's a team effort. And you mentioned the internet, just anecdotally I'm old enough to remember this 'cause I remember the days that it was goin' on, is that the policy decisions that the U.S. made at that time was to let it go a little bit invisible hand. They didn't try to commercialize it too fast. But there was some policy work that was done, that had a direct effect to the innovation. Versus take it over, and the next thing you know it's out of control. So I think there's this cross-disciplinary skillset becomes a big thing where you need to have more people involved. And that's one of the big themes of this symposium. So it's a great point. Thank you for sharing that. Roland, your thoughts on this because you got policy decisions. We all want to run faster. We want to be more innovative, but you got to have some ops view. Now, most of the ops view people want things very tight, very buttoned up, secure. The innovators want to go faster. It's the ying and yang. That's the world we live in. How's it all balance in your mind? >> Yeah, one of the things that may not be apparently obvious is that the U.S. government and Department of Defense is one of the biggest investors in technology in the aerospace sector. They're not the traditional venture capitalists, but they're the ones that are driving technology innovation because there's funding. And when companies see that the U.S. government is interested in something, businesses will revector to provide that capability. And, I would say the more recent years, we've had a huge influx of private equity, venture capital coming into the markets to kind of help augment the government investment. And I think having a good partnership and a relationship with these private equity, venture capitalists and the U.S. government is incredibly important because the two sides can help collaborate and kind of see a common goal. But then also too, on the other side there's that human element. And as General Shaw was saying, not only do companies obviously want to thrive and do really well, some companies just want to stay alive to see their technology kind of grow into what they've always dreamed of. And oftentimes entrepreneurs are put in a very difficult position because they have to make payroll, they have to keep the lights on. And so, sometimes they'll take investment from places where they may normally would not have, from potentially foreign investment that could potentially cause issues with the U.S. supply chain. >> Well, my final question is the best I wanted to save for last, because I love the idea of human space flight. I'd love to be on Mars. I'm not sure I'm able to make it someday, but how do you guys see the possible impacts of cybersecurity on expanding human space flight operations? I mean, general, this is your wheelhouse. This is your in command, putting humans in space and certainly robots will be there because they're easy to go 'cause they're not human. But humans in space. I mean, you startin' to see the momentum, the discussion, people are scratchin' that itch. What's your take on that? How do we see makin' this more possible? >> Well, I think we will see commercial space tourism in the future. I'm not sure how wide and large a scale it will become, but we will see that. And part of the, I think the mission of the Space Force is going to be probably to again, do what we're doin' today is have really good awareness of what's going on in the domain to ensure that that is done safely. And I think a lot of what we do today will end up in civil organizations to do space traffic management and safety in that arena. And, it is only a matter of time before we see humans going, even beyond the, NASA has their plan, the Artemis program to get back to the moon and the gateway initiative to establish a space station there. And that's going to be a NASA exploration initiative. But it is only a matter of time before we have private citizens or private corporations putting people in space and not only for tourism, but for economic activity. And so it'll be really exciting to watch. It'll be really exciting and Space Force will be a part of it. >> General, Roland, I want to thank you for your valuable time to come on this symposium. Really appreciate it. Final comment, I'd love you to spend a minute to share your personal thoughts on the importance of cybersecurity to space and we'll close it out. We'll start with you Roland. >> Yeah, so I think the biggest thing I would like to try to get out of this from my own personal perspective is creating that environment that allows the aerospace supply chain, small businesses like ourselves, be able to meet all the requirements to protect and safeguard our data, but also create a way that we can still thrive and it won't stifle innovation. I'm looking forward to comments and questions, from the audience to really kind of help, basically drive to that next step. >> General final thoughts, the importance of cybersecurity to space. >> I'll go back to how I started I think John and say that space and cyber are forever intertwined, they're BFFs. And whoever has my job 50 years from now, or a hundred years from now, I predict they're going to be sayin' the exact same thing. Cyber and space are intertwined for good. We will always need the cutting edge, cybersecurity capabilities that we develop as a nation or as a society to protect our space capabilities. And our cyber capabilities are going to need space capabilities in the future as well. >> General John Shaw, thank you very much. Roland Coelho, thank you very much for your great insight. Thank you to Cal Poly for puttin' this together. I want to shout out to the team over there. We couldn't be in-person, but we're doing a virtual remote event. I'm John Furrier with "theCUBE" and SiliconANGLE here in Silicon Valley, thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: From around the globe. It's theCUBE covering space in cybersecurity symposium 2020 hosted by Cal Poly. >> Hello, everyone. Welcome to the space and cybersecurity symposium, 2020 hosted by Cal Poly where the intersection of space and security are coming together. I'm John Furrier, your host with theCUBE here in California. I want to welcome our featured guest, Lieutenant General, John F. Thompson with the United States Space Force approach to cybersecurity. That's the topic of this session. And of course he's the commander of the space and missile system center in Los Angeles Air Force Base. Also heading up Space Force. General, thank you for coming on. I really appreciate to you kicking this off. Welcome to the symposium. >> Hey, so thank you very much, John, for that very kind introduction. Also very much thank you to Cal Poly for this opportunity to speak to this audience today. Also a special shout out to one of the organizers, Dustin Debrun, for all of his work, helping get us to this point. Ladies and gentlemen as a John mentioned, I'm JT Thompson. I lead the 6,000 men and women of the United States Space Force's Space and Missile System Center, which is headquartered here at Los Angeles Air Force Base and El Segundo. If you're not quite sure where that's at, it's about a mile and a half from LAX. This is our main operating location, but we do have a number of other operating locations around the country. We're about 500 people at Kirtland Air Force Base in Albuquerque, New Mexico, and an about another 500 people on the front range of the Rockies between Colorado Springs and Denver plus a smattering of other much smaller operating locations nationwide. We're responsible for acquiring, developing and sustaining the United States Space Force's, critical space assets. That includes the satellites in the space layer and also on the ground layer our ground segments to operate those satellites. And we also are in charge of procuring launch services for the US Space Force and a number of our critical mission partners across the Department of Defense and the intelligence community. Just as a couple of examples of some of the things we do, if you're unfamiliar with our work we developed and currently sustain the 31 satellite GPS constellation that satellite constellation, while originally intended to help with global navigation, those GPS signals have provided trillions of dollars in unanticipated value to the global economy over the past three decades. GPS is everywhere. I think everybody realizes that. Agriculture, banking, the stock market, the airline industry, separate and distinct navigation systems. It's really pervasive across both capabilities for our Department of Defense and capabilities for our economy and individuals, billions of individuals across our country and the planet. Some of the other work we do for instance, in the communications sector, secure communications satellites that we designed and build that link America's sons and daughters serving in the military around the world and really enable real time support and comms for our deployed forces. And those of our allies. We also acquire infrared missile warning satellites that monitor the planet for missile launches that provide advanced warning to the US Homeland and to our allies in case some of those missile launches are nefarious. On a note, that's probably a lot closer to home, maybe a lot closer to home than many of us want to think about here in the state of California. In 2018, SMC jumped through a bunch of red tape and bureaucracy to partner with the US Forest Service during two of the largest wildfires in the state's history, the Camp and Woolsey fires in Northern California. As those fires spread out of control, we created processes on the fly to share data from our missile warning satellites. Those are satellites that are systems that are purpose built to see heat sources from thousands of miles above the planet. And we collaborated with the US Forest Service so that firefighters on the ground could track those fires more in real time and better forecast fires and where they were spreading, thereby saving lives and property by identifying hotspots and flareups for firefighters. That data that we were able to working with our contractors pass to the US Forest Service and authorities here in California, was passed in less than an hour as it was collected to get it into the hands of the emergency responders, the first responders as quickly as possible and doing that in an hour greatly surpassed what was available from some of the other assets in the airborne and ground-based fire spotters. It was really instrumental in fighting those fires and stopping their spread. We've continued that involvement in recent years, using multiple systems to support firefighters across the Western US this fall, as they battled numerous wildfires that unfortunately continue. Working together with the US Forest Service and with other partners we'd like to think that we've made a difference here, but there's still a lot more work to go. And I think that we should always be asking ourselves what else can space data be used for and how can we more rapidly get that space data to stakeholders so that they can use it for purposes of good, if you will. How else can we protect our nation? How else can we protect our friends and allies? I think a major component of the discussion that we will have throughout this conference is that the space landscape has changed rapidly and continues to change rapidly. Just over the past few years, John and I were talking before we went live here and 80 nations now have space programs. Nearly 80 space faring nations on the planet. If you just look at one mission area that the Department of Defense is interested in, and that's small launch, there are currently over 100 different small launch companies within the US industrial base vying for commercial DoD and civil payload capabilities, mostly to lower earth orbit. It's truly a remarkable time. If you factor in those things like artificial intelligence and machine learning, where we're revolutionizing really, the ways that we generate process and use data. It's really remarkable. In 2016, so if you think about this four years ago, NASA estimated that there were 28 terabytes of information transiting their space network each day. And that was four years ago. Obviously we've got a lot of desire to work with a lot of the people in the audience in this conference, we need to work with big thinkers, like many of you to answer questions on how best we apply data analytics to extract value and meaning from that data. We need new generations of thinkers to help apply cutting edge theories of data mining, cyber behaviorism, and Internet of Things 2.0, it's just truly a remarkable time to be in the space business and the cyber aspects of the space business are truly, truly daunting and important to all of us. Integrating cyber security into our space systems, both commercial and government is a mandate. it's no longer just a nice to have as the US Space Force and Department of the Air Force leadership has said many times over the past couple of years, space is becoming congested and contested. And that contested aspect means that we've got to focus on cyber security in the same way that the banking industry and cyber commerce focus on cybersecurity day in and day out. The value of the data and services provided is really directly tied to the integrity and availability of that data and services from the space layer, from the ground control segments associated with it. And this value is not just military, it's also economic and it's not just American, it's also a value for the entire world, particularly our allies, as we all depend upon space and space systems. Your neighbors and friends here in California that are employed at the space and missile system center work with network defenders. We work with our commercial contractors and our systems developers, our international allies and partners to try and build as secure and resilient systems as we can from the ground up that keep the global comments of space free and open for exploration and for commerce as John and I were talking earlier, before we came online, there's an aspect of cybersecurity for space systems, especially for some of our legacy systems, that's more, how do we bolt this on? Cause we fielded those space systems a number of years ago, and the challenges of cybersecurity in the space domain have grown. So we have a part that we have to worry about, bolting it on, but then we have to worry about building it in as we field new systems and build in a flexibility that realizes that the cyber threat or the cybersecurity landscape will evolve over time. It's not just going to be stagnant. There will always be new vulnerabilities and new threat vectors that we all have to look at. Look, as Secretary Barrett, who is our secretary of the air force likes to say most Americans use space before they have their first cup of coffee in the morning. The American way of life really depends on space. And as part of the United States Space Force, we work with defense leaders, our Congress joint, and international military teammates and industry to ensure American leadership in space. I really thank you for this opportunity to address the audience today, John, and thanks so much to Cal Poly for letting me be one of the speakers at this event. I've really looked forward to this for several months. And so with that, I look forward to your questions as we kind of move along here. >> General, thank you very much for those awesome introductory statement. For the folks watching on the stream, Brigadier General Carthan's going to be in the chat, answering any questions, feel free to chat away. He's the vice commander of Space and Missile System Center, he'll be available. A couple of comments from your keynote before I get to my questions. Cause it just jumped into my head. You mentioned the benefits of say space with the fires in California. We're living that here. That's really realtime. That's a benefit. You also mentioned the ability for more people launching payloads into space. I'm only imagined Moore's law smaller, faster, cheaper applies to rockets too. So I'm imagining you have the benefits of space and you have now more potential objects flying out sanctioned and maybe unsanctioned. So is it going to be more rules around that? This is an interesting question cause it's exciting Space Force, but for all the good there is potentially bad out there. >> Yeah. So John, I think the basics of your question is as space becomes more congested and contested, is there a need for more international norms of how satellites fly in space? What kind of basic features satellites have to perhaps de orbit themselves? What kind of basic protections should all satellites be afforded as part of a peaceful global commons of space? I think those are all fantastic questions. And I know that US and many allied policy makers are looking very, very hard at those kinds of questions in terms of what are the norms of behavior and how we field, and field as the military term. But how we populate using civil or commercial terms that space layer at different altitudes, lower earth orbit, mid earth orbit, geosynchronous earth orbit, different kinds of orbits, what the kind of mission areas we accomplished from space. That's all things that need to be definitely taken into account as the place gets a little bit, not a little bit as the place gets increasingly more popular day in and day out. >> I'm super excited for Space Force. I know that a new generation of young folks are really interested in it's an emerging, changing great space. The focus here at this conference is space and cybersecurity, the intersection. I'd like to get your thoughts on the approach that a space force is taking to cybersecurity and how it impacts our national goals here in the United States. >> Yeah. So that's a great question John, let me talk about it in two basic ways. At number one is an and I know some people in the audience, this might make them a little bit uncomfortable, but I have to talk about the threat. And then relative to that threat, I really have to talk about the importance of cyber and specifically cyber security, as it relates to that threat. The threats that we face really represented a new era of warfare and that new era of warfare involves both space and cyber. We've seen a lot of action in recent months from certain countries, notably China and Russia that have threatened what I referred to earlier as the peaceful global commons of space. For example, it threw many unclassified sources and media sources. Everybody should understand that the Russians have been testing on orbit anti-satellite capabilities. It's been very clear if you were following just the week before last, the Department of Defense released its 2020 military and security developments involving the People's Republic of China. And it was very clear that China is developing ASATs, electronic jammers, directed energy weapons, and most relevant to today's discussion, offensive cyber capabilities. There are kinetic threats that are very, very easy to see, but a cyber attack against a critical command and control site or against a particular spacecraft could be just as devastating to the system and our war fighters in the case of GPS and important to note that that GPS system also impacts many civilians who are dependent on those systems from a first response perspective and emergency services, a cyber attack against a ground control site could cause operators to lose control of a spacecraft or an attacker could feed spoofed data to assist them to mislead operators so that they sent emergency services personnel to the wrong address. Attacks on spacecraft on orbit, whether directly via a network intrusion or enabled through malware introduced during the system's production while we're building the satellite can cripple or corrupt the data. Denial-of-service type attacks on our global networks obviously would disrupt our data flow and interfere with ongoing operations and satellite control. If GPS went down, I hesitate to say it this way, cause we might elicit some screams from the audience. But if GPS went down a Starbucks, wouldn't be able to handle your mobile order, Uber drivers wouldn't be able to find you. And Domino's certainly wouldn't be able to get there in 30 minutes or less. So with a little bit of tongue in cheek there from a military operations perspective, it's dead serious. We have become accustomed in the commercial world to threats like ransomware and malware. And those things have unfortunately become commonplace in commercial terrestrial networks and computer systems. However, what we're seeing is that our adversaries with the increased competition in space these same techniques are being retooled, if you will, to use against our national security space systems day in and day out. As I said, during my opening remarks on the importance of cyber, the value of these systems is directly tied to their integrity. If commanders in the field, firefighters in California or baristas in Starbucks, can't trust the data they're receiving, then that really harms their decision making capabilities. One of the big trends we've recently seen is the move towards proliferated LEO constellations, obviously Space X's Starlink on the commercial side and on the military side, the work that DARPA and my organization SMC are doing on Blackjack and Casino, as well as some space transport layer constellation work that the space development agency is designing are all really, really important types of mesh network systems that will revolutionaries how we plan and field war fighting systems and commercial communications and internet providing systems. But they're also heavily reliant on cybersecurity. We've got to make sure that they are secured to avoid an accident or international damage. Loss of control of these constellations really could be catastrophic from both a mission perspective or from a satellites tumbling out of low earth orbit perspective. Another trend is introductions in artificial intelligence and machine learning, onboard spacecraft are at the edge. Our satellites are really not so much hardware systems with a little software anymore in the commercial sector and in the defense sector, they're basically flying boxes full of software. And we need to ensure that data that we're getting out of those flying boxes full of software are helping us base our decisions on accurate data and algorithms, governing the right actions and that those systems are impervious to the extent possible to nefarious modifications. So in summation, cybersecurity is a vital element of everything in our national security space goals. And I would argue for our national goals, writ large, including economic and information dimensions, the Space Force leadership at all levels from some of the brand new second lieutenants that general Raymond swore in to the space force this morning, ceremonially from the air force associations, airspace and cyberspace conference to the various highest levels, General Raymond, General DT Thompson, myself, and a number of other senior leaders in this enterprise. We've got to make sure that we're all working together to keep cyber security at the forefront of our space systems cause they absolutely depend on it. >> You mentioned hardware, software threats, opportunities, challenges. I want to ask you because you got me thinking of the minute they're around infrastructure. We've heard critical infrastructure, grids here on earth. You're talking about critical infrastructure, a redefinition of what critical infrastructure is, an extension of what we have. So I'd love to get your thoughts about Space Force's view of that critical infrastructure vis-a-vis the threat vectors, because the term threat vectors has been kicked around in the cyberspace. Oh you have threat vectors. They're always increasing the surface area. If the surface area is from space, it's an unlimited service area. So you got different vectors. So you've got new critical infrastructure developing real time, really fast. And you got an expanded threat vector landscape. Putting that in perspective for the folks that aren't really inside the ropes on these critical issues. How would you explain this and how would you talk about those two things? >> So I tell you, just like, I'm sure people in the security side or the cybersecurity side of the business in the banking industry feel, they feel like it's all possible threat vectors represent a dramatic and protect potentially existential threat to all of the dollars that they have in the banking system, to the financial sector. On the Department of Defense side, we've got to have sort of the same mindset. That threat vector from, to, and through space against critical space systems, ground segments, the launch enterprise, or transportation to orbit and the various different domains within space itself. Like I mentioned before, LEO, MEO and GEO based satellites with different orbits, all of the different mission areas that are accomplished from space that I mentioned earlier, some that I did mention like a weather tactical or wide band communications, various new features of space control. All of those are things that we have to worry about from a cyber security threat perspective. And it's a daunting challenge right now. >> Yeah, that's awesome. And one of the things we've been falling on the hardware side on the ground is the supply chain. We've seen, malware being, really put in a really obscure hardware. Who manufactures it? Is it being outsourced? Obviously government has restrictions, but with the private sector, you mentioned China and the US kind of working together across these peaceful areas. But you got to look at the supply chain. How does the supply chain in the security aspect impact the mission of the US space Force? >> Yeah. Yeah. So how about another, just in terms of an example, another kind of California based historical example. The very first US Satellite, Explorer 1, was built by the jet propulsion laboratory folks, not far from here in El Segundo, up in Pasadena, that satellite, when it was first built in the late 50s weighing a little bit, over 30 pounds. And I'm sure that each and every part was custom made and definitely made by US companies. Fast forward to today. The global supply chain is so tightly coupled, and frankly many industries are so specialized, almost specialized regionally around the planet. We focus every day to guarantee the integrity of every component that we put in our space systems is absolutely critical to the operations of those satellites and we're dependent upon them, but it becomes more difficult and more difficult to understand the heritage, if you will, of some of the parts that are used, the thousands of parts that are used in some of our satellites that are literally school bus sized. The space industry, especially national security space sector is relatively small compared to other commercial industries. And we're moving towards using more and more parts from non US companies. Cybersecurity and cyber awareness have to be baked in from the beginning if we're going to be using parts that maybe we don't necessarily understand 100% like an Explorer one, the lineage of that particular part. The environmental difficulties in space are well known. The radiation environment, the temperature extremes, the vacuum, those require specialized component. And the US military is not the only customer in that space. In fact, we're definitely not the dominant customer in space anymore. All those factors require us along with our other government partners and many different commercial space organizations to keep a very close eye on our supply chains, from a quality perspective, a security perspective and availability. There's open source reporting on supply training intrusions from many different breaches of commercial retailers to the infectious spread of compromised patches, if you will. And our adversaries are aware of these techniques. As I mentioned earlier, with other forms of attack, considering our supply chains and development networks really becomes fair game for our adversaries. So we have to take that threat seriously. Between the government and industry sectors here in the US. We're also working with our industry partners to enact stronger defenses and assess our own vulnerabilities. Last fall, we completed an extensive review of all of our major contracts here at Space and Missile System Center to determine the levels of cyber security requirements we've implemented across our portfolio. And it sounds really kind of businessy geeky, if you will. Hey, we looked at our contracts to make sure that we had the right clauses in our contracts to address cybersecurity as dynamically as we possibly could. And so we found ourselves having to add new language to our contracts, to require system developers, to implement some more advanced protective measures in this evolving cyber security environment. So that data handling and supply chain protections from contract inception to launch and operations were taken into account. Cyber security really is a key performance parameter for us now. Performance of the system, It's as important as cost, it's as important as schedule, because if we deliver the perfect system on time and on cost, it can perform that missile warning or that communications mission perfectly, but it's not cyber secure. If it's doesn't have cyber protections built into it, or the ability to implement mitigations against cyber threats, then we've essentially fielded a shoe box in space that doesn't do the CA the war fighter or the nation any good. Supply chain risk management is a major challenge for us. We're doing a lot to coordinate with our industry partners. We're all facing it head on to try and build secure and trusted components that keep our confidence as leaders, firefighters, and baristas as the case may be. But it is a challenge. And we're trying to rise to that challenge. >> This is so exciting this new area, because it really touches everything. Talk about geeking out on the tech, the hardware, the systems but also you put your kind of MBA hat on you go, what's the ROI of extra development and how things get built. Because the always the exciting thing for space geeks is like, if you're building cool stuff, it's exciting, but you still have to build. And cybersecurity has proven that security has to be baked in from the beginning and be thought as a system architecture. So you're still building things, which means you got to acquire things, you got to acquire parts, you got acquire build software and sustain it. How is security impacting the acquisition and the sustainment of these systems for space? >> Yeah. From initial development, through planning for the acquisition, design, development, our production fielding and sustainment, it impacts all aspects of the life cycle, John. We simply, especially from the concept of baking in cybersecurity, we can't wait until something is built and then try and figure out how to make it cyber secure. So we've moved way further towards working side by side with our system developers to strengthen cybersecurity from the very beginning of a systems development, cyber security, and the resilience associated with it really have to be treated as a key system attribute. As I mentioned earlier, equivalent with data rates or other metrics of performance. We like to talk in the space world about mission assurance and mission assurance has always sort of taken us as we technically geek out. Mission assurance has always taken us to the will this system work in space. Can it work in a vacuum? Can it work in as it transfers through the Van Allen radiation belt or through the Southern hemisphere's electromagnetic anomaly? Will it work out in space? And now from a resiliency perspective, yeah, it has to work in space. It's got to be functional in space, but it's also got to be resistant to these cybersecurity threats. It's not just, I think a General D.T Thompson quoted this term. It's not just widget assurance anymore. It's mission assurance. How does that satellite operator that ground control segment operate while under attack? So let me break your question a little bit, just for purposes of discussion into really two parts, cybersecurity, for systems that are new and cybersecurity for systems that are in sustainment are kind of old and legacy. Obviously there's cyber vulnerabilities that threatened both, and we really have to employ different strategies for defensive of each one. For new systems. We're desperately trying to implement across the Department of Defense and particularly in the space world, a kind of a dev sec ops methodology and practice to delivering software faster and with greater security for our space systems. Here at SMC, we have a program called enterprise ground services, which is a toolkit, basically a collection of tools for common command and control of different satellite systems, EGS as we call it has an integrated suite for defensive cyber capabilities. Network operators can use these tools to gain unprecedented insight to data flows and to monitor space network traffic for anomalies or other potential indicators of a bad behavior, malicious behavior, if you will, it's rudimentary at this point, but because we're using DevSecOps and that incremental development approach, as we scale it, it just becomes more and more capable. Every product increment that we feel. Here at LA Air Force Base, we have the United Space Force's West Coast Software Factory, which we've dubbed the Kobayashi Maru. They're using those agile DevOps software development practices to deliver a space awareness software to the combined space operations center. Affectionately called the CSpock that CSpock is just on the road from Cal Poly there in San Luis Obispo at Vandenberg Air Force Base. They've so securely linked the sea Spock with other space operation centers around the planet, our allies, Australia, Canada, and the UK. We're partnering with all of them to enable secure and enhanced combined space operations. So lots of new stuff going on as we bake in new development capabilities for our space systems. But as I mentioned earlier, we've got large constellations of satellites on orbit right now. Some of them are well in excess of a decade or more or old on orbit. And so the design aspects of those satellites are several decades old. But we still have to worry about them cause they're critical to our space capabilities. We've been working with an air force material command organization called CROWS, which stands for the Cyber Resiliency Office for Weapon Systems to assess all of those legacy platforms from a cyber security perspective and develop defensive strategies and potential hardware and software upgrades to those systems to better enable them to live through this increasingly cybersecurity concerned era that we currently live in. Our industry partners have been critical to both of those different avenues. Both new systems and legacy systems. We're working closely with them to defend and upgrade national assets and develop the capabilities to do similar with new national assets coming online. The vulnerabilities of our space systems really kind of threatened the way we've done business in the past, both militarily and in the case of GPS economically. The impacts of that cybersecurity risk are clear in our acquisition and sustainment processes, but I've got to tell you, as the threat vectors change, as the vulnerabilities change, we've got to be nimble enough, agile enough, to be able to bounce back and forth. We can't just say, many people in the audience are probably familiar with the RMF or the Risk Management Framework approach to reviewing the cyber security of a system. We can't have program managers and engineers just accomplish an RMF on a system. And then, hey, high five, we're all good. It's a journey, not a destination, that's cybersecurity. And it's a constant battle rhythm through our weapon systems lifecycle, not just a single event. >> I want to get to this commercial business needs and your needs on the next question. But before I go there, you mentioned agile. And I see that clearly because when you have accelerated innovation cycles, you've got to be faster. And we saw this in the computer industry, mainframes, mini computers, and then we started getting beyond maybe when the internet hit and PCs came out, you saw the big enterprises, the banks and government start to work with startups. And it used to be a joke in the entrepreneurial circles is that, there's no way if you are a startup you're ever going to get a contract with a big business enterprise. Now that used to be for public sector and certainly for you guys. So as you see startups out there and there's acquisition involved, I'm sure would love to have a contract with Space Force. There's an ROI calculation where if it's in space and you have a sustainment view and it's software, you might have a new kind of business model that could be attractive to startups. Could you share your thoughts on the folks who want to be a supplier to you, whether they're a startup or an existing business that wants to be agile, but they might not be that big company. >> John, that's a fantastic question. We're desperately trying to reach out to those new space advocates, to those startups, to those what we sometimes refer to, within the Department of Defense, those non traditional defense contractors. A couple of things just for thinking purposes on some of the things that we're trying to highlight. Three years ago, we created here at Space and Missile System Center, the Space Enterprise Consortium to provide a platform, a contractual vehicle, really to enable us to rapidly prototype, development of space systems and to collaborate between the US Space Force, traditional defense contractors, non traditional vendors like startups, and even some academic institutions. SPEC, as we call it, Space Enterprise Consortium uses a specialized contracting tool to get contracts awarded quickly. Many in the audience may be familiar with other transaction agreements. And that's what SPEC is based on. And so far in just three years, SPEC has awarded 75 different prototyping contracts worth over $800 million with a 36% reduction in time to award. And because it's a consortium based competition for these kinds of prototyping efforts, the barrier to entry for small and nontraditional, for startups, even for academic institutions to be able to compete for these kinds of prototyping has really lowered. These types of partnerships that we've been working through on spec have really helped us work with smaller companies who might not have the background or expertise in dealing with the government or in working with cyber security for their systems, both our developmental systems and the systems that they're designing and trying to build. We want to provide ways for companies large and small to partner together in support kind of mutually beneficial relationships between all. Recently at the Annual Air Force Association conference that I mentioned earlier, I moderated a panel with several space industry leaders, all from big traditional defense contractors, by the way. And they all stressed the importance of building bridges and partnerships between major contractors in the defense industry and new entrance. And that helps us capture the benefits of speed and agility that come with small companies and startups, as well as the expertise and specialized skill sets of some of those larger contractors that we rely on day in and day out. Advanced cyber security protections and utilization of secure facilities are just a couple of things that I think we could be prioritizing more so in those collaborations. As I mentioned earlier, the SPEC has been very successful in awarding a number of different prototyping contracts and large dollar values. And it's just going to get better. There's over 400 members of the space enterprise consortium, 80% of them are non traditional kinds of vendors. And we just love working with them. Another thing that many people in the audience may be familiar with in terms of our outreach to innovators, if you will, and innovators that include cyber security experts is our space pitch day events. So we held our first event last November in San Francisco, where we awarded over a two day period about $46 million to 30 different companies that had potentially game changing ideas. These were phase two small business innovative research efforts that we awarded with cash on the spot. We're planning on holding our second space pitch day in the spring of 2021. We're planning on doing it right here in Los Angeles, COVID-19 environment permitting. And we think that these are fantastic venues for identifying and working with high-speed startups, and small businesses who are interested in really, truly partnering with the US Air Force. It's, as I said before, it's a really exciting time to be a part of this business. And working with the innovation economy is something that the Department of Defense really needs to do in that the innovation that we used to think was ours. That 80% of the industrial base innovation that came from the Department of Defense, the script has been flipped there. And so now more than 70%, particularly in space innovation comes from the commercial sector, not from the defense business itself. And so that's a tsunami of investment and a tsunami of a capability. And I need to figure out how to get my surfboard out and ride it, you know what I mean? >> Yeah, It's one of those things where the script has been flipped, but it's exciting because it's impacting everything. When you're talking about systems architecture? You're talking about software, you're talking about a business model. You're talking about dev sec opsx from a technical perspective, but now you have a business model innovation. All the theaters are exploding in innovation, technical, business, personnel. This brings up the workforce challenge. You've got the cyber needs for the US Space Force, It's probably great ROI model for new kinds of software development that could be priced into contracts. That's a entrepreneurial innovation, you've got the business model theater, you've got the personnel. How does the industry adopt and change? You guys are clearly driving this. How does the industry adjust to you? >> Yeah. So I think a great way to answer that question is to just talk about the kind of people that we're trying to prioritize in the US Space Force from an acquisition perspective, and in this particular case from a cybersecurity perspective. As I mentioned earlier, it's the most exciting time to be in space programs, really since the days of Apollo. Just to put it in terms that maybe have an impact with the audience. From 1957 until today, approximately 9,000 satellites have been launched from the various space varying countries around the planet. Less than 2000 of those 9,000 are still up on orbit and operational. And yet in the new space regime players like Space X have plans to launch, 12,000 satellites for some of their constellations alone. It really is a remarkable time in terms of innovation and fielding of space capabilities and all of those space capabilities, whether they're commercial, civil, or defense are going to require appropriate cybersecurity protections. It's just a really exciting time to be working in stuff like this. And so folks like the folks in this audience who have a passion about space and a passion about cybersecurity are just the kind of people that we want to work with. Cause we need to make sure our systems are secure and resilient. We need folks that have technical and computing expertise, engineering skills to be able to design cyber secure systems that can detect and mitigate attacks. But we also, as you alluded to, we need people that have that business and business acumen, human networking background, so that we can launch the startups and work with the non traditional businesses. Help to bring them on board help, to secure both their data and our data and make sure our processes and systems are free as much as possible from attack. For preparation, for audience members who are young and maybe thinking about getting into this trade space, you got to be smart on digital networking. You got to understand basic internet protocols, concepts, programming languages, database design. Learn what you can for penetration or vulnerability testing and a risk assessment. I will tell you this, and I don't think he will, I know he will not mind me telling you this, but you got to be a lifelong learner and so two years ago, I'm at home evening and I get a phone call on my cell phone and it's my boss, the commander of Air Force Space command, General, J. Raymond, who is now currently the Chief of Space Operations. And he is on temporary duty, flying overseas. He lands where he's going and first thing he does when he lands is he calls me and he goes JT, while I was traveling, I noticed that there were eBooks available on the commercial airliner I was traveling on and there was an ebook on something called scrumming and agile DevSecOps. And I read it, have you read it? And I said, no, sir. But if you tell me what the title of the book is, I will read it. And so I got to go to my staff meeting, the very next week, the next time we had a staff meeting and tell everybody in the staff meeting, hey, if the four star and the three star can read the book about scrumming, then I'm pretty sure all of you around this table and all our lieutenants and our captains our GS13s, All of our government employees can get smart on the scrumming development process. And interestingly as another side, I had a telephone call with him last year during the holidays, where he was trying to take some leave. And I said, sir, what are you up to today? Are you making eggnog for the event tonight or whatever. And the Chief of Space Operations told me no, I'm trying to teach myself Python. I'm at lesson two, and it's not going so well, but I'm going to figure this out. And so that kind of thing, if the chief of staff or the Chief of Space Operations can prioritize scrumming and Python language and innovation in his daily schedule, then we're definitely looking for other people who can do that. And we'll just say, lower levels of rank throughout our entire space force enterprise. Look, we don't need people that can code a satellite from scratch, but we need to know, we need to have people that have a basic grasp of the programming basics and cybersecurity requirements. And that can turn those things into meaningful actions, obviously in the space domain, things like basic physics and orbital mechanics are also important spaces, not an intuitive domain. So under understanding how things survive on orbit is really critical to making the right design and operational decisions. And I know there's probably a lot, because of this conference. I know there's probably a whole lot of high speed cybersecurity experts out in the audience. And I need those people in the US Space Force. The country is counting on it, but I wouldn't discount having people that are just cyber aware or cyber savvy. I have contracting officers and logisticians and program managers, and they don't have to be high end cybersecurity experts, but they have to be aware enough about it to be able to implement cyber security protections into our space systems. So the skill set is really, really broad. Our adversaries are pouring billions of dollars into designing and fielding offensive and destructive space, cybersecurity weapons. They repeatedly shown really a blatant disregard of safety and international norms for good behavior on orbit. And the cyber security aspects of our space systems is really a key battleground going forward so that we can maintain that. As I mentioned before, peaceful global comments of space, we really need all hands on deck. If you're interested in helping in uniform, if you're interested in helping, not in uniform, but as a government employee, a commercial or civil employee to help us make cyber security more important or more able to be developed for our space systems. And we'd really love to work with you or have you on the team to build that safe and secure future for our space systems. >> Lieutenant General John Thompson, great insight. Thank you for sharing all that awesome stories too, and motivation for the young next generation. The United States Space Force approach to cybersecurity. Really amazing talk, thank you for your time. Final parting question is, as you look out and you have your magic wand, what's your view for the next few years in terms of things that we could accomplish? It's a super exciting time. What do you hope for? >> So first of all, John, thanks to you and thanks to Cal Poly for the invitation and thanks to everybody for their interest in cybersecurity, especially as it relates to space systems, that's here at the conference. There's a quote, and I'll read it here from Bernard Schriever, who was the founder, if you will, a legend in a DoD space, the founder of the Western development division, which was a predecessor organization to Space and Missile System Center, General Schriever, I think captures the essence of how we see the next couple of years. "The world has an ample supply of people "who can always come up with a dozen good reasons "why new ideas will not work and should not be tried, "but the people who produce progress are breed apart. "They have the imagination, "the courage and the persistence to find solutions." And so I think if you're hoping that the next few years of space innovation and cybersecurity innovation are going to be upon a pony ride at the County fair, then perhaps you should look for another line of work, because I think the next few years in space and cybersecurity innovation are going to be more like a rodeo and a very dynamic rodeo as it goes. It is an awesome privilege to be part of this ecosystem. It's really an honor for me to be able to play some small role in the space ecosystem and trying to improve it while I'm trying to improve the chances of the United States of America in a space war fighting environment. And so I thank all of you for participating today and for this little bit of time that you've allowed me to share with you. Thank you. >> Sir, thank you for your leadership and thank you for the time for this awesome event, Space and Cyber Cybersecurity Symposium 2020, I'm John Furrier on behalf of Cal Poly, thanks for watching. (mellow music)

>>from Santa Clara, California In the heart of Silicon Valley, it's the queue covering altitude 2020. Brought to you by aviatrix. >>Okay, welcome back to altitude. 2020 for the folks on the Livestream. I'm John Furrier Steve Mullaney with CEO of aviatrix for our first of two customer panels on cloud with Cloud Network Architects. We got Bobby. Will be They gone. Luis Castillo, National Instruments. David should nick with fact set. Guys, welcome >>to the stage for this digital >>event. Come on up. >>Hey, good to see you. Thank you. Okay. Okay. Yeah. >>Okay. Customer panel. This is my favorite part. We get to hear the real scoop. Get the gardener. Given this the industry overview. Certainly multi clouds, very relevant. And cloud native networking is the hot trend with live stream out there in the digital events of guys. Let's get into it. The journey is you guys are pioneering this journey of multi cloud and cloud native networking and soon going to be a lot more coming. So I want to get into the journey. What's it been like? Is it really got a lot of scar tissue? Uh, what is some of the learnings >>Yeah, absolutely. So multi Cloud is whether or not we accepted as network engineers is a reality. Um, like Steve said about two years ago, companies really decided to to just to just bite the bullet and move there. Whether or not whether or not we accept that fact, we need to now create a consistent architecture across across multiple clouds and that that is challenging, um, without orchestration layers as you start managing different different tool sets and different languages across different clouds. So that's it's it's really important to start thinking about that. You >>guys are on the other Panelists here this different phases of this journey. Some come at it from a networking perspective. Some comment from a problem. Troubleshooting. Which What's your experiences? >>Yeah, so, uh, from a networking perspective, it's been incredibly exciting. It's kind of a once in a generational opportunity to look at how you're building out your network. You can start to embrace things like infrastructure as code that maybe your peers on the systems teams have been doing for years. But it just never really worked on Prem, so it's really it's really exciting to look at all the opportunities that we have And then all the interesting challenges that come up that you, uh, that you get to tackle >>and in fact said, you guys are mostly aws, right? >>Right now, though, where we are looking at multiple clouds, we have production workloads running in multiple clouds today. But a lot of the initial work has been with them, >>and you see it from a networking perspective. That's where you guys are coming at it from. Yep. Yeah. So >>we evolved more from a customer requirement. Perspective started out primarily is AWS. But as the customer needed mawr resources manager like HPC, you know, Azure A D. Things like that. Even recently, Google do analytics. Our journey has evolved into more of a multi cloud environment. >>Steve weigh in on the architecture because this has been the big conversation. I want you to lead this sector. >>Yeah, so I mean, I think you guys agreed that journey. It seems like the journey started a couple of years ago got real serious. The need for multi cloud, whether you're there today. Of course it's going to be there in the future, so that's really important. I think the next thing is just architecture. I love to hear what you you had some comments about architecture matters. It all starts. I mean, every enterprise I talked to maybe talk about architecture in the importance of architecture. Maybe Bobby >>is from architectural perspective. We started our journey five years ago. Wow. Okay. And we're just now starting our fourth evolution of our network architect. Okay? And we call it networking security. Net sec versus just network on that. Fourth generation architectures be based primarily upon Palo Alto networks and aviatrix aviatrix doing the orchestration piece of it. But that journey came because of the need for simplicity, the need for a multi cloud orchestration without having to go and do reprogramming efforts across every cloud as it comes along. >>Right? I guess. The other question, I I also had around architectures also, Louise, maybe just talk about I know we've talked a little bit about scripting right and some of your thoughts on that. Yeah, absolutely. So, um, so for us, we started, We started creating Ah, the network constructs with cloud formation. And we've stuck with that, for the most part. What's interesting about that is today on premise, we have a lot of a lot of automation around around how we provision networks, but confirmation has become a little bit like the new manual for us. So we're now having issues with having the automate that component and making it consistent with our on premise architecture, making it consistent with azure architecture and Google Cloud. So it's really interesting to see to see companies now bring that layer of abstraction that SD Wan brought to the to the wan side. Now it's going up into into the cloud networking architectures, >>right? So on the fourth generation of you mentioned, you're 1/4 gen architecture. What do you guys? What have you learned? Is there any lessons? Scar tissue, what to avoid? What worked? What was some of the >>one of the biggest lesson there is that when you think you finally figured it out, you haven't right? Amazon will change something as you change something, you know, transit gateway, the game changer eso uh, and listening to the business requirements is probably the biggest thing we need to do up front. But I think from a simplicity perspective, we said We don't want to do things four times. We want two things. One time we want to have a right to an AP I, which aviatrix has and have them do the orchestration for us so that we don't have to do it four times. How >>important is architecture in the progression, is it? You guys get thrown in the deep end to solve these problems or you guys zooming out and looking at it. I mean, how are you guys looking at the architecture? >>I mean, you can't get off the ground if you don't have the network there. So all of those things we've gone through similar evolutions. We're on our fourth or fifth evolution. Uh, I think about what We started off with Amazon without a direct connect gateway without a transit gateway without ah, a lot of the things that are available today kind of the 80 20 that Steve was talking about. Just because it wasn't there doesn't mean we didn't need it, so we >>needed to figure out a way to do it. We >>couldn't say. You need to come back to the network team in a year. Maybe Amazon will have a solution for you. We need to do it now and evolve later and maybe optimize or change. Really, you're doing things in the future, But don't sit around and wait. You can't. >>I'd love to have you guys each individually answer this question for the livestream that comes up a lot. A lot of cloud architects out in the community. What should they be thinking about? The folks that are coming into this proactively and are realizing the business benefits are there? What advice would you guys give them? An architecture, which should be they be thinking about and what some guiding principles you could share. >>So I would start with, ah, looking at an architectural model that that can, that can spread and and give consistency the different two different cloud vendors that you will absolutely have to support. Um, cloud vendors tend to want to pull you into using their native tool set, and that's good. If only it was realistic, too. Talk about only one cloud, but because it doesn't, it's it's, um, it's super important to talk about and have a conversation with the business and with your technology teams about a consistent model. >>How do I do my day one work so that I'm not spending 80% of my time troubleshooting or managing my network. Because if I'm doing that, then I'm missing out on ways that I can make improvements to embrace new technologies. So it's really important early on to figure out how do I make this as low maintenance as possible so that I can focus on the things that the team really should be focusing on. >>Bobby. Your advice? The architect. I >>don't know what else I can add to. That simplicity of operations is gives key. >>Alright, so the holistic view of Day two operation you mentioned let's could jump in. Day one is you're getting stuff set up. Day two is your life after. This is what you're getting at, David. So what does that look like? What are you envisioning as you look at that 20 mile stare out post multi cloud world one of the things that you want in a day to operations? >>Yeah, infrastructure as code is really important to us. So how do we How do we design it so that we can fit start making network changes and putting them into like, a release pipeline and start looking at it like that rather than somebody logging into a router cli and troubleshooting things on an ad hoc nature. So moving more towards the Devil Ops model. >>Here's the thing I had on that day two. >>Yeah, I would. I would love to add something. So in terms of day two operations, you can you can either sort of ignore the day two operations for a little while where you get well, you get your feet wet, um, or you can start approaching it from the beginning. The fact is that the cloud native tools don't have a lot of maturity in that space. And when you run into an issue, you're gonna end up having a bad day, going through millions and millions of logs just to try to understand what's going on. So that's something that the industry just now is beginning to realize. It's It's such a such a big gap. >>I think that's key, because for us, we're moving to more of an event driven or operations. In the past. Monitoring got the job done. It is impossible to modern monitor something that's not there when the event happens, right, so the event driven application and then detection is important. >>I think Gardner is about the Cloud Native wave coming into networking. That's going to be a serious thing. I want to get you guys perspective. I know you have different views of how you came into the journey and how you're executing. And I always say the beauty's in the eye of the beholder and that kind of applies the networks laid out. So, Bobby, you guys do a lot of high performance encryption both on AWS and Azure. That's kind of a unique thing for you. How are you seeing that impact with multi cloud? >>And that's a new requirement for us to where we, uh we have a requirement to encrypt, and they never get the question Should encryption and encrypt. The answer is always yes, you should encrypt. You should get encrypt for perspective. We we need to moderate a bunch of data from our data centers. We have some huge data centers on. Getting that data to the cloud is is timely experiencing some cases, So we have been mandated that we have to encrypt everything, leaving the data center. So we're looking at using the aviatrix insane mode appliances to be able to decrypt you know 10 20 gigabytes of data as it moves to the cloud itself. David, you're using >>terra form. You've got fire net. You've got a lot of complexity in your network. What do you guys look at the future for your environment? >>Yes. So something exciting that we're working on now is fire net. So for our security team, they obviously have a lot of a lot of knowledge based around Polito on with our commitments to our clients, you know, it's it's it's not very easy to shift your security model to a specific cloud vendor it So there's a lot of stock to compliance and things like that where being able to take some of what you've you know you've worked on for years on Prem and put it in the cloud and have the same type of assurance that things were gonna work and be secure in the same way that they are on Prem helps make that journey into the cloud a lot easier. >>And you guys got scripting and get a lot of things going on. What's your what's your unique angle on this? >>Um, yeah. No, absolutely so full disclosure. I'm not not not an aviatrix customer yet. >>It's okay. We want to hear the truth. So that's good. Tell >>us what you're thinking about. What's on your mind. >>No, really, Um, when you when you talk about, um, implementing the to like this, it's It's really just really important. Teoh talk about automation and focus on on value. So when you talk about things like encryption and thinks like so you're encrypting tunnels and encrypting the path and those things are, should it should should be second nature, Really? When you when you look at building those back ends and managing them with your team, it becomes really painful. So tools like aviatrix that that had a lot of automation. It's out of out of sight, out of mind. You can focus on the value you don't have to focus on. >>I got to ask, You guys are seeing the traces here. They're their supplier to the sector, but you guys are customers. Everyone's pitching your stuff that people are not going to buy my stuff. How >>do you >>guys have that conversation with the suppliers, like the cloud vendors and other folks? What's the What's the leg or a P? I all the way you got to support this. What are some >>of the >>what are some of your requirements? How do you talk to and evaluate people that walk in and want Teoh knock on your door and pitch you something? What's the conversation like? >>It's definitely It's definitely a p. I driven. Um, we we definitely look at the at the structure of the vendors provide before we select anything. Um, that that is always first of mine. And also, what problem are we really trying to solve? Usually people try to sell or try to give us something that isn't really valuable. Like implementing Cisco solution on the on the cloud isn't really doesn't really add a lot of value. >>David, what's your conversations like with suppliers? So you have a certain new way to do things as becomes more agile, essentially networking and more dynamic. What are some of the conversations with the other incumbents or new new vendors that you're having what you require? >>So ease of use is definitely, definitely high up there. We've had some vendors come in and say, Hey, you know, when you go to set this up, we're gonna want to send somebody on site and they're going to sit with you for a day to configure. And that's kind of a red flag. Wait a minute. You know, we really if one of my really talented engineers can't figure it out on his own, what's going on there and why is that? So, uh, you know, having having some ease of use and the team being comfortable with it and understanding it is really important. >>How about you in the old days was Do a bake off winner takes all. I mean, is it like that anymore? What's evolving Bake off >>last year for us to win, So But that's different now, because now when you when you get the product, you install the product in AWS in azure or have it up and running a matter of minutes. And the key is, can you be operational within hours or days instead of weeks? But we also have the flexibility to customize it to meet your needs, because you want to be. You would be put into a box with the other customers who have needs that pastor cut their needs. >>You can almost see the challenge of you guys are living where you've got the cloud immediate value, how you can roll a penny solutions. But then you have might have other needs. So you got to be careful not to buy into stuff that's not shipping. So you're trying to be proactive in the same time. Deal with what you got here. How do you guys see that evolving? Because multi cloud to me is definitely relevant. But it's not yet clear how to implement across. How do you guys look at this? Bakes versus, you know, future solutions coming? How do you balance that? >>Um, so again. So right now we were. We're taking the the ad hoc approach and experimenting with the different concepts of cloud on demand, really leveraging the native constructs of each cloud. But but there's there's a breaking point. For sure you don't you don't get to scale this like like Simone said, and you have to focus on being able to deliver Ah, developer their their sandbox play area for the things that they're trying to build quickly. And the only way to do that is with some sort of consistent orchestration layer that allows you to. >>So you spent a lot more stuff becoming pretty quickly. >>I was very. I do expect things to start to start maturing quite quite quickly this year, >>and you guys see similar trends. New stuff coming fast. >>Yeah, the one of the biggest challenge we've got now is being able to segment within the network, being able to provide segmentation between production, non production workloads, even businesses, because we support many businesses worldwide and and isolation between those is a key criteria there. So the ability to identify and quickly isolate those workloads is key. >>So the cios that are watching are saying, Hey, take that hill, do multi cloud and then the bottoms up organization cause you're kind of like off a little bit. It's not how it works. I mean, what is the reality in terms of implementing, you know, and as fast as possible because the business benefits are clear, but it's not always clear in the technology how to move that fast. What are some of the barriers of blockers? One of the enabler, >>I think the reality is, is that you may not think of multi cloud, but your businesses, right? So I think the biggest barriers there is understanding what the requirements are and how best to meet those requirements. I think in a secure manner, because you need to make sure that things are working from a latency perspective, that things work the way they did and get out of the mind shift that, you know, if the Tier three application in the data center it doesn't have to be a Tier three application in the cloud, so lift and shift is not the way to go. >>Scale is a big part of what I see is the competitive advantage of all of these clouds, and it used to be proprietary network stacks in the old days and then open systems came. That was a good thing. But as clouds become bigger, there's kind of an inherent lock in there with the scale. How do you guys keep the choice open? How you guys thinking about interoperability? What is some of the conversations that you guys were having around those key concepts? >>Well, when we look at when we look at the from a networking perspective, it's really key for you to just enable enable all the all the clouds to be able to communicate between them. Developers will will find a way to use the cloud that best suits their business. Um and and like Like you said, it's whether whether you're in denial or not of the multi cloud fact that your company is in already, Um, that's it becomes really important for you to move quickly. >>Yeah, and the A lot of it also hinges on how well is the provider embracing what that specific cloud is doing? So are they swimming with Amazon or azure and just helping facilitate things? They're doing the heavy lifting AP I work for you or are they swimming upstream? And they're trying to hack it all together in a messy way, and so that helps you stay out of the lock in, because there, you know if they're doing if they're using Amazon native tools to help you get where you need to be, it's not like Amazon's going to release something in the future that completely, uh, you know, makes you have designed yourself into a corner. So the closer they're more cloud native, they are, the more, uh, the easier it is to, uh >>to the boy. But you also need to be aligned in such a way that you can take advantage of the cloud Native technology of limits sets. T J W. Is a game changer in terms of cost and performance. Right. So to completely ignore, that would be wrong. But, you know, if you needed to have encryption teaching double encrypted, so you need to have some type of a gateway to do the VPN encryption. So the aviatrix, too, will give you the beauty of both worlds. You can use T. W or the gateway real >>quick in the last minute we have. I want to just get a quick feedback from you guys. I hear a lot of people say to me, Hey, the pick The best cloud for the workload you got, then figure out multi cloud behind the scenes. So that seems to be Do you guys agree with that? I mean, is it doing one cloud across the whole company or this workload works great on AWS. That work was great on this from a cloud standpoint. Do you agree with that premise? And then what is multi cloud stitch them all together? >>Yeah, um, from from an application perspective, it it can be per workload, but It can also be an economical decision. Certain enterprise contracts will will pull you in one direction that value. Um, but the the network problem is still the same. >>It doesn't go away. Yeah, Yeah. I mean, you don't want to be trying to fit a square into a round hole, right? So if it works better on that cloud provider, then it's our job to make sure that that service is there. People can use >>it. Yeah, I agree. You just need to stay ahead of the game. Make sure that the network infrastructure is there. Secure is available and is multi cloud capable. >>Yeah. At the end of the day, you guys just validating that. It's the networking game now. Cloud storage. Compute Check. Networking is where the action is. Awesome. Thanks for your insights. Appreciate you coming on the Cube. Appreciate it. >>Yeah, yeah, yeah.