(upbeat intro music) >> Good afternoon, fellow tech nerds. My name is Savannah Peterson, coming to you from theCube's Remote Studio here in Motown, Detroit, Michigan where we are at KubeCon. John, this is our 12th interview of the day. How are you feeling? >> I'm feeling fresh as the first interview. (Savannah laughs) As always. >> That delivery really implied a level of freshness. >> Let's go! No, this is only Day 1. In three days, reinvent. We go hardcore. These are great events. We get so much great content. The conversations are amazing. The guests are awesome. They're technical, they're smart, and they're making the difference in the future. So, this next segment about Scale MySQL should be awesome. >> I am very excited to introduce our next guest who actually has a Twitter handle that I think most people, at least of my gender in this industry would love to have. She is @ATechGirl. So you can go ahead and tweet her and tell her how great this interview is while we're live. Please welcome Deepthi Sigireddi. Thank you so much for being here with us. >> Thank you for having me. >> You're feeding us in. You've got two talks you're giving while we're here. >> Yes, yes. So tomorrow we will be talking about VTR, myself and one of the other maintainers of Vitess and on Friday we have the Vitess Maintainer Talk. All graduated projects get a maintainer talk. >> Wow, so you are like KubeCon VIP celebrity. >> Well, I hope so. >> Well, you're a maintainer and technical lead, also software engineer at the PlanetScale. But talk about the graduation process where that means to the project and the people involved. >> So Vitess graduated in 2019 and there are strict criteria for graduation and you don't just have to meet the minimum, you sort of have to over perform on the graduation criteria. Some of which are like there must be at least two large production deploys and people from those companies have to go in front of the CNCF committee that approves these things and say that, "Yes, this project is critical to our business." >> A lot of peer review, a lot of deployment success. >> Yes. >> Good consistency in the code. >> Deepthi: Community diversity. >> All that. >> All those things. >> Talk about the importance of this project. What is the top story that people should know about around the project? Why it exists, why it's important, why it's relevant, why it's cool. How would you answer that? >> So MySQL is now 30 years old and yet they are still- >> Makes me feel a little sidebar. (Deepthi laughs) Yeah. >> And yet even though there are many other newer databases, it continues to be used at many of the largest internet scale companies. And some of them, for example, Slack, GitHub, Square, they have grown to a level where they could not have if they had tried to do it with Vanilla MySQL that they started with, and the only reason they are where they are is Vitess. So that is I think the number one thing people should know about Vitess. >> And the origination story on notes say "Came from YouTube." >> Yes. So the way Vitess started was that YouTube was having problems with their MySQL deployment and they got tired of dealing with the site being down. So the founders of Vitess decided that they had to do something about it and they started building Vitess which started as a pretty small, relatively code-based with limited features, and over time they built charting and all of the other things that we have today. >> Well, this is exciting Savannah because we've seen this industry. Like with Facebook, when they started, everyone built their own stuff. MySQL was a great- >> Oh gosh, and everyone wanted to build it their way, reinventing the wheel. >> And MySQL was great. And then as it kind of broke when it grew, it got retrofitted. So, it was constantly being scaled up to the point where now you guys, if I get this right, said, "Hey, we're going to work on this. We're going to make it next-gen." So it's kind of like next-gen MySQL. Almost. >> Yes, yes. I would say that's pretty accurate, yeah. So there are still large companies which run their own MySQL and they have scaled it in their own way, but Vitess happens to be an open source way of scaling MySQL that people can adopt without having to build all of their own tooling around it. >> Speaking of that and growing, you just announced a new version today. >> Yes, yes. >> Tell us about that. >> The focus in this version was to make Vitess easier to use and to deploy. So in the past, there was one glaring gap in Vitess which was that Vitess did not automatically detect and repair MySQL level failures. With this release, we've actually closed that gap. And what that means for people using Vitess is that they will actually spend less time dealing with outages manually, or less human intervention, More automated recovery is what it means. The other thing we've released today is a new web UI. Vitess had a very old web UI, ugly, hard to maintain. Nobody liked it. But it was functional, except we couldn't add anything new to it because it was so old. So, the backend functionality kept advancing but the front end was kind of frozen. Now we have a next generation UI to which in upcoming releases we can add more and more functionality. >> So, it's extensible. They add things in. >> Deepthi: Oh yes, of course. Yeah. >> Awesome. What's the biggest thing that you like about the new situation? Is it more contributors are on board the UI? What's the fresh new impact that's happening in the community? What's getting you excited about with the current project? And the UI's great 'cause usability is important. >> Deepthi: Right. >> Scalability is important. >> I think Vitess solved the scalability problem way early and only now we are really grappling with the usability problem. So the hope and the desire is to make Vitess autopilot so that you reduce human intervention to a minimum once you deploy it. Obviously, you have to go through the process of deploying it. But once you've deployed it, it should just run itself. >> Runs at scale. So, the scale's huge? >> Deepthi: Yes. >> How many contributors are involved in the project? Can you give some numbers? Do you have any handy that you can speak to? >> Right. So, CNCF actually tracks these statistics for all the projects and we consolidated some numbers for the last two full calendar years, 2020 and 2021. We had over 400 contributors and 200 plus of them contributed code and the others contributed documentation issues, website changes, and things like that. So that gives- >> How about downloads? Download's good? >> Oh, okay. So we started publishing the current official Vitess Docker Image in 2018. And by October of 2020, we had about 3.8 million downloads. And by August of 2021, we had 5.2 million. And today, we have had over 10 million downloads- >> Wow! >> Of the main image. >> Starting to see a minute of that hockey stick that we all like to see. Seems like you're very clearly a community-first leader and it seems like that's in the PlanetScale and the test's DNA. Is that how the whole company culture views it? Would you say it's community-first business? >> PlanetScale is very much committed to Vitess as an open source project and to serving the Vitess community. So as part of my role at PlanetScale, some of the things I do are helping new contributors whether they are from PlanetScale or from outside PlanetScale. A number of PlanetScale engineers who don't work full-time on Vitess still contribute bug fixes and features to Vitess. We spend a significant amount of our energy helping users in our community Slack. The releases we do are mainly for the benefit of the community and PlanetScale is making those releases because for Planet Scale... Within PlanetScale, we actually do separate releases versus the public ones. >> One of the things that's coming up here at the show is deploying on Kubernetes. How does that look like? Everyone wants ease of use. Are you guys easy to use? >> Yes, yes. So PlanetScale also open sourced a Kubernetes operator for Vitess that people outside PlanetScale are using to run their production deployments of Vitess. Prior to that, there were Vitess users who actually built their own Kubernetes deployments of Vitess and they are still running those, but new users and new adopters of Vitess tend to use the Kubernetes operator that we are publishing. >> And you guys are the managed service for Vitess for the people that that's the business model for PlanetScale. >> Correct. So PlanetScale has a serverless database on demand which is built on Vitess. So if someone's starting something new and they just need a database, you sign up. It takes 30 seconds to get a database. Connect to it and start doing things with it. Versus if you are a large enterprise and you have a huge database deployment, you can migrate to PlanetScale, import all of your existing data, cut over with minimal downtime and then go, and then PlanetScale manages that. >> And why would they do that? What's the use case for that? Save time new development team or refactoring? >> Save time not being able to hire people with the skills to run it in-house. Not wanting to invest engineering resources in what businesses think is not their core competency. They want to focus on their business value. >> So, this database is a service in their whatever they're doing without adding more costs. >> Right. >> And speed. Okay, cool. How's that going? >> It's going well. >> Any feedback from customers in terms of why that there are any benefit statements you seek popping out? What are the big... What's the big aha when they... When people realize what they have here, what's the aha moment for them? Do they go, "Wow, this is awesome. It's so easy. Push a button. Migrate." Or is it... >> All of those. And people have actually seen cost savings when they've migrated from Amazon RDS to PlanetScale and we have testimonials from people who've said that, "It was so easy to use PlanetScale. Why would we try to do it ourselves?" >> It's the best thing a customer could say, right? We're all about being painkillers and solving some sort of problem. I think that that's a great opportunity to let you show off some of your customers. So, who is receiving this benefit? 'Cause I know PlanetScale specifically is for a certain style of business. >> Hmm. We have a list of customers on the website. >> Savannah: I was going to say you have a really- >> John: She's a software engineer. She's not marketing. >> You did sexy. >> You're doing a great job as much as marketing. >> So the reason I am bringing this up is because it's clear this is a solution for companies like Square, SoundCloud, Etsy, Jordan, and other exciting brands. So when you're talking about companies at scale, these companies are very much at scale, which is awesome. >> Yeah. >> What's next? What do you guys see the future for the project? >> I think we talked about that a little bit already. So, usability is a big thing. We did the new UI. It's not complete, right? Because over the last four years we've built more features into the backend which you can't yet access from the UI. So we want to be able for people to use things like online schema changes which is a big feature of Vitess. Doing schema changes without downtime from the UI. So, schema management from the UI. Vitess has something called VReplication which is the core technology that enables charting. And right now you can from the UI monitor your charting status, but you can't actually start charting from the UI. So more of the administrative functions we want to enable from the UI. >> John: Awesome. >> Last question. What are you personally most excited about this week being here with our wonderful community? >> I always enjoy being at KubeCon. This is my fifth or sixth in-person and I've done a couple of virtual ones. >> Savannah: Awesome. >> Because of the energy, because you get to meet people in person whom previously you've only met in Slack or maybe in a monthly community Zoom calls. We always have people come to our project booth. We have a project booth here for Vitess. People come to the company booth. PlanetScale has a booth. People come to our talks, ask questions. We end up having design discussions, architecture discussions. We get feedback on what is important to the people who show up here. That always informs what we do with the project in future releases. >> Perfect answer. I already mentioned that you can get a hold and in touch with Deepthi through her wonderful Twitter handle. Is there any other website or anything you want to shout out here before I do our close? >> vitess.io. V-I-T-E-S-S dot I-O is the Vitess website and planetscale.com is the PlanetScale website. >> Deepthi Sigireddi, thank you so much for being on the show with us today. John, thanks for keeping me company as always. >> You're welcome. >> And thank all of you for tuning into theCUBE. We will be here in Detroit, Michigan all week live from KubeCon and we hope to see you there. (gentle upbeat music)

>> (bright music) >> Narrator: The Cube, presents Kubecon and Cloudnativecon, year of 2022, brought to you by Red Hat, the cloud native computing foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Now what we're opening. Welcome to Valencia, Spain in Kubecon Cloudnativecon, Europe, 2022. I'm Keith Townsend, along with my host, Paul Gillin, who is the senior editor for architecture at Silicon angle, Paul. >> Keith you've been asking me questions all these last two days. Let me ask you one. You're a traveling man. You go to a lot of conferences. What's different about this one. >> You know what, we're just talking about that pre-conference, open source conferences are usually pretty intimate. This is big. 7,500 people talking about complex topics, all in one big area. And then it's, I got to say it's overwhelming. It's way more. It's not focused on a single company's product or messaging. It is about a whole ecosystem, very different show. >> And certainly some of the best t-shirts I've ever seen. And our first guest, Jim has one of the better ones. >> I mean a bit cockroach come on, right. >> Jim Walker, principal product evangelist at CockroachDB and Christian Huning, tech director of cloud technologies at Finleap Connect, a financial services company that's based out of Germany, now offering services in four countries now. >> Basically all over Europe. >> Okay. >> But we are in three countries with offices. >> So you're CockroachDB customer and I got to ask the obvious question. Databases are hard and started the company in 2015 CockroachDB, been a customer since 2019, I understand. Why take the risk on a four year old database. I mean that just sounds like a world of risk and trouble. >> So it was in 2018 when we joined the company back then and we did this cloud native transformation, that was our task basically. We had very limited amount of time and we were faced with a legacy infrastructure and we needed something that would run in a cloud native way and just blend in with everything else we had. And the idea was to go all in with Kubernetes. Though early days, a lot of things were alpha beta, and we were running on mySQL back then. >> Yeah. >> On a VM, kind of small setup. And then we were looking for something that we could just deploy in Kubernetes, alongside with everything else. And we had to stack and we had to duplicate it many times. So also to maintain that we wanted to do it all the same like with GitOps and everything and Cockroach delivered that proposition. So that was why we evaluate the risk of relatively early adopting that solution with the proposition of having something that's truly cloud native and really blends in with everything else we do in the same way was something we considered, and then we jumped the leap of faith and >> The fin leap of faith >> The fin leap of faith. Exactly. And we were not dissatisfied. >> So talk to me a little bit about the challenges because when we think of MySQL, MySQL scales to amazing sizes, it is the de facto database for many cloud based architectures. What problems were you running into with MySQL? >> We were running into the problem that we essentially, as a finTech company, we are regulated and we have companies, customers that really value running things like on-prem, private cloud, on-prem is a bit of a bad word, maybe. So it's private cloud, hybrid cloud, private cloud in our own data centers in Frankfurt. And we needed to run it in there. So we wanted to somehow manage that and with, so all of the managed solution were off the table, so we couldn't use them. So we needed something that ran in Kubernetes because we only wanted to maintain Kubernetes. We're a small team, didn't want to use also like full blown VM solution, of sorts. So that was that. And the other thing was, we needed something that was HA distributable somehow. So we also looked into other solutions back at the time, like Vitis, which is also prominent for having a MySQL compliant interface and great solution. We also got into work, but we figured, this is from the scale, and from the sheer amount of maintenance it would need, we couldn't deliver that, we were too small for that. So that's where then Cockroach just fitted in nicely by being able to distribute BHA, be resilient against failure, but also be able to scale out because we had this problem with a single MySQL deployment to not really, as it grew, as the data amounts grew, we had trouble to operatively keep that under control. >> So Jim, every time someone comes to me and says, I have a new database, I think we don't need it, yet another database. >> Right. >> What problem, or how does CockroachDB go about solving the types of problems that Christian had? >> Yeah. I mean, Christian laid out why it exists. I mean, look guys, building a database isn't easy. If it was easy, we'd have a database for every application, but you know, Michael Stonebraker, kind of godfather of all database says it himself, it takes seven, eight years for a database to fully gestate to be something that's like enterprise ready and kind of, be relied upon. We've been billing for about seven, eight years. I mean, I'm thankful for people like Christian to join us early on to help us kind of like troubleshoot and go through some things. We're building a database, it's not easy. You're right. But building a distributor system is also not easy. And so for us, if you look at what's going on in just infrastructure in general, what's happening in Kubernetes, like this whole space is Kubernetes. It's all about automation. How do I automate scale? How do I automate resilience out of the entire equation of what we're actually doing? I don't want to have to think about active passive systems. I don't want to think about sharding a database. Sure you can scale MySQL. You know, how many people it takes to run three or four shards of MySQL database. That's not automation. And I tell you what, this world right now with the advances in data how hard it is to find people who actually understand infrastructure to hire them. This is why this automation is happening, because our systems are more complex. So we started from the very beginning to be something that was very different. This is a cloud native database. This is built with the same exact principles that are in Kubernetes. In fact, like Kubernetes it's kind of a spawn of borg, the back end of Google. We are inspired by Spanner. I mean, this started by three engineers that worked at Google, are frustrated, they didn't have the tools, they had at Google. So they built something that was, outside of Google. And how do we give that kind of Google like infrastructure for everybody. And that's, the advent of Cockroach and kind of why we're doing, what we're doing. >> As your database has matured, you're now beginning a transition or you're in a transition to a serverless version. How are you doing that without disrupting the experience for existing customers? And why go serverless at all? >> Yeah, it's interesting. So, you know, serverless was, it was kind of a an R&D project for us. And when we first started on a path, because I think you know, ultimately what we would love to do for the database is let's not even think about database, Keith. Like, I don't want to think about the database. What we're building too is, we want a SQL API in the cloud. That's it. I don't want to think about scale. I don't want to think about upgrades. I literally like. that stuff should just go away. That's what we need, right. As developers, I don't want to think about isolation levels or like, you know, give me DML and I want to be able to communicate. And for us the realization of that vision is like, if we're going to put a database on the planet for everybody to actually use it, we have to be really, really efficient. And serverless, which I believe really should be infrastructure less because I don't think we should be thinking of just about service. We got to think about, how do I take the context of regions out of this thing? How do I take the context of cloud providers out of what we're talking about? Let's just not think about that. Let's just code against something. Serverless was the answer. Now we've been building for about a year and a half. We launched a serverless version of Cockroach last October and we did it so that everybody in the public could have a free version of a database. And that's what serverless allows us to do. It's all consumption based up to certain limits and then you pay. But I think ultimately, and we spoke a little bit about this at the very beginning. I think as ISVs, people who are building software today the serverless vision gets really interesting because I think what's on the mind of the CTO is, how do I drive down my cost to the cloud provider? And if we can basically, drive down costs through either making things multi-tenant and super efficient, and then optimizing how much compute we use, spinning things down to zero and back up and auto scaling these sort of things in our software. We can start to make changes in the way that people are thinking about spend with the cloud provider. And ultimately we did that, so we could do things for free. >> So, Jim, I think I disagree Christian, I'm sorry, Jim. I think I disagree with you just a little bit. Christian, I think the biggest challenge facing CTOs are people. >> True. >> Getting the people to worry about cost and spend and implementation. So as you hear the concepts of CoachDB moving to a serverless model, and you're a large customer how does that make you think or react to your people side of your resources? >> Well, I can say that from the people side of resources luckily Cockroach is our least problem. So it just kind of, we always said, it's an operator stream because that was the part that just worked for us, so. >> And it's worked as you have scaled it? without you having ... >> Yeah. I mean, we use it in a bit of a, we do not really scale out like the Cockroach, like really large. It's like, more that we use it with the enterprise features of encryption in the stack and our customers then demand. If they do so, we have the Zas offering and we also do like dedicated stacks. So by having a fully cloud native solution on top of Kubernetes, as the foundational layer we can just use that and stamp it out and deploy it. >> How does that translate into services you can provide your customers? Are there services you can provide customers that you couldn't have, if you were running, say, MySQL? >> No, what we do is, we run this, so the SAS offering runs in our hybrid private cloud. And the other thing that we offer is that we run the entire stack at a cloud provider of their choosing. So if they are an AWS, they give us an AWS account, we put it in there. Theoretically, we could then also talk about using the serverless variant, if they like so, but it's not strictly required for us. >> So Christian, talk to me about that provisioning process because if I had a MySQL deployment before I can imagine how putting that into a cloud native type of repeatable CICD pipeline or Ansible script that could be difficult. Talk to me about that. How CockroachDB enables you to create new onboarding experiences for your customers? >> So what we do is, we use helm charts all over the place as probably everybody else. And then each application team has their parts of services, they've packaged them to helm charts, they've wrapped us in a super chart that gets wrapped into the super, super chart for the entire stack. And then at the right place, somewhere in between Cockroach is added, where it's a dependency. And as they just offer a helm chart that's as easy as it gets. And then what the teams do is they have an inner job, that once you deploy all that, it would spin up. And as soon as Cockroach is ready it's just the same reconcile loop as everything. It will then provision users, set up database schema, do all that. And initialize, initial data sets that might be required for a new setup. So with that setup, we can spin up a new cluster and then deploy that stack chart in there. And it takes some time. And then it's done. >> So talk to me about life cycle management. Because when I have one database, I have one schema. When I have a lot of databases I have a lot of different schemas. How do you keep your stack consistent across customers? >> That is basically part of the same story. We have get offs all over the place. So we have this repository, we see the super helm chart versions and we maintain like minus three versions and ensure that we update the customers and keep them up to date. It's part of the contract sometimes, down to the schedule of the customer at times. And Cockroach nicely supports also, these updates with these migrations in the background, the schema migrations in the background. So we use in our case, in that integration SQL alchemy, which is also nicely supported. So there was also part of the story from MySQL to Postgres, was supported by the ORM, these kind of things. So the skill approach together with the ease of helm charts and the background migrations of the schema is a very seamless upgrade operations. Before that we had to have downtime. >> That's right, you could have online schema changes. Upgrading the database uses the same concept of rolling upgrades that you have in Kubernetes. It's just cloud native. It just fits that same context, I think. >> Christian: It became a no-brainer. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Jim, you mentioned the idea of a SQL API in the cloud, that's really interesting. Why does such a thing not exist? >> Because it's really difficult to build. You know, SQL API, what does that mean? Like, okay. What I'm going to, where does that endpoint live? Is there one in California one on the east coast, one in Europe, one in Asia? Okay. And I'm asking that endpoint for data. Where does that data live? Can you control where data lives on the planet? Because ultimately what we're fighting in software today in a lot of these situations is the speed of light. And so how do you intelligently place data on this planet? So that, you know, when you're asking for data, when you're maybe home, it's a different latency than when you're here in Valencia. Does that data follow and move you? These are really, really difficult problems to solve. And I think that we're at that layer of, we're at this moment in time in software engineering, we're solving some really interesting, interesting things cause we are budding against this speed of light problem. And ultimately that's one of the biggest challenges. But underneath, it has to have all this automation like the ease at which we can scale this database like the always on resilient, the way that we can upgrade the entire thing with just rolling upgrades. The cloud native concepts is really what's enabling us to do things at global scale it's automation. >> Let's alk about that speed of light in global scale. There's no better conference for speed of light, for scale, than Kubecon. Any predictions coming out of the show? >> It's less a prediction for me and more of an observation, you guys. Like look at two years ago, when we were here in Barcelona at QCon EU, it was a lot of hype. It's a lot of hype, a lot of people walking around, curious, fascinated, this is reality. The conversations that I'm having with people today, there's a reality. There's people really doing, they're becoming cloud native. And to me, I think what we're going to see over the next two to three years is people start to adopt this kind of distributed mindset. And it permeates not just within infrastructure but it goes up into the stack. We'll start to see much more developers using, Go and these kind of the threaded languages, because I think that distributed mindset, if it starts at the chip all the way to the fingertip of the person clicking and you're distributed everywhere in between. It is extremely powerful. And I think that's what Finleap, I mean, that's exactly what the team is doing. And I think there's a lot of value and a lot of power in that. >> Jim, Christian, thank you so much for coming on the Cube and sharing your story. You know what we're past the hype cycle of Kubernetes, I agree. I was a nonbeliever in Kubernetes two, three years ago. It was mostly hype. We're looking at customers from Microsoft, Finleap and competitors doing amazing things with this platform and cloud native in general. Stay tuned for more coverage of Kubecon from Valencia, Spain. I'm Keith Townsend, along with Paul Gillin and you're watching the Cube, the leader in high tech coverage. (bright music)

>> theCUBE presents KubeCon and CloudNativeCon, Europe, 2022. Brought to you by Red Hat, the cloud-native computing foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome to Valencia, Spain in KubeCon, CloudNativeCon, Europe, 2022. I'm Keith Townsend with my cohosts, Enrico Signoretti, Senior IT Analyst at GigaOm. >> Exactly. >> 7,500 people I'm told, Enrico. What's the flavor of the show so far? >> It's a fantastic mood, I mean, I found a lot of people wanting to track, talk about what they're doing with Kubernetes, sharing their you know, stories, some war stories that bit tough. And you know, this is where you learn actually. Because we had a lot of Zoom calls, webinar and stuff. But it is when you talk a video, "Oh, I did it this way, and it didn't work out very well." So, and, you start a conversation like this that is really different from learning from Zoom, when, you know, everybody talks about things that work it well, they did it right. No, it's here that you learn from other experiences. >> So we're talking to amazing people the whole week, talking about those experiences here on theCUBE. Fresh on the theCUBE for the first time, Chris Voss, senior software engineer at Microsoft Xbox. Chris, welcome to the theCUBE. >> Thank you so much for having me. >> So first off, give us a high level picture of the environment that you're running at Microsoft. >> Yeah. So, you know, we've got 20 well probably close to 30 clusters at this point around the globe, you know 700 to 1,000 pods per cluster, roughly. So about 22,000 pods total. So yeah, it's pretty, pretty sizable footprint and yeah. So we've been running on Kubernetes since 2018 and well actually might be 2017, but anyways, so yeah, that's kind of our footprint. Yeah. >> So all of that, let's talk about the basics which is security across multiple I'm assuming containers, microservices, etcetera. Why did you and the team settle on Linkerd? >> Yeah, so previously we had our own kind of solution for managing TLS certs and things like that. And we found it to be pretty painful, pretty quickly. And so we knew, you know we wanted something that was a little bit more abstracted away from the developers and things like that, that allowed us to move quickly. And so we began investigating, you know, solutions to that. And a few of our colleagues went to Kubecon in San Diego in 2019, Cloudnativecon as well. And basically they just, you know, sponged it all up. And actually funny enough, my old manager was one of the people who was there and he went to the Linkerd booth and they had a thing going that was like, "Hey, get set up with MTLS in five minutes." And he was like, "This is something we want to do, why not check this out?" And he was able to do it. And so that put it on our radar. And so yeah, we investigated several others and Linkerd just perfectly fit exactly what we needed. >> So, in general we are talking about, you know, security at scale. So how you manage security scale and also flexibility. Right? So, but you know, what is the... You told us about the five minutes to start using there but you know, again, we are talking about war stories. We're talking about, you know, all these. So what kind of challenges you found at the beginning when you started adopting this technology? >> So the biggest ones were around getting up and running with like a new service, especially in the beginning, right, we were, you know, adding a new service almost every day. It felt like. And so, you know, basically it took someone going through a whole bunch of different repos, getting approvals from everyone to get the certs minted, all that fun stuff getting them put into the right environments and in the right clusters, to make sure that, you know, everybody is talking appropriately. And just the amount of work that that took alone was just a huge headache and a huge barrier to entry for us to, quickly move up the number of services we have. >> So, I'm trying to wrap my head around the scale of the challenge. When I think about certification or certificate management, I have to do it on a small scale. And every now and again, when a certificate expires it is just a troubleshooting pain. >> Yes. >> So as I think about that, it costs it's not just certificates across 22,000 pods, or it's certificates across 22,000 pods in multiple applications. How were you doing that before Linkerd? Like, what was the... And what were the pain points? Like what happens when a certificate either fails? Or expired up? Not updated? >> So, I mean, to be completely honest, the biggest thing is we're just unable to make the calls, you know, out or in, based on yeah, what is failing basically. But, you know, we saw essentially an uptick in failures around a certain service and pretty quickly, pretty quickly, we got used to the fact that it was like, oh, it's probably a cert expiration issue. And so we tried, you know, a few things in order to make that a little bit more automated and things like that. But we never came to a solution that like didn't require every engineer on the team to know essentially quite a bit about this, just to get into it, which was a huge issue. >> So talk about day two, after you've deployed Linkerd, how did this alleviate software engineers? And what was like the benefits of now having this automated way of managing certs? >> So the biggest thing is like, there is no touch from developers, everyone on our team... Well, I mean, there are a lot of people who are familiar with security and certs and all of that stuff. But no one has to know it. Like it's not a requirement. Like for instance, I knew nothing about it when I joined the team. And even when I was setting up our newer clusters, I knew very little about it. And I was still able to really quickly set up Linkerd, which was really nice. And it's been, you know, essentially we've been able to just kind of set it, and not think about it too much. Obviously, you know, there're parts of it that you have to think about, we monitor it and all that fun stuff, but yeah, it's been pretty painless almost day one. It took a long time to trust it for developers. You know, anytime there was a failure, it's like, "Oh, could this be Linkerd?" you know. But after a while, like now we don't have that immediate assumption because people have built up that trust, but. >> Also you have this massive infrastructure I mean, 30 clusters. So, I guess, that it's quite different to manage a single cluster in 30. So what are the, you know, consideration that you have to do to install this software on, you know, 30 different cluster, manage different, you know versions probably, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. >> So, I mean, you know, as far as like... I guess, just to clarify, are you asking specifically with Linkerd? Or are you just asking in more in general? >> Well, I mean, you can take that the question in two ways. >> Okay. >> Sure, yeah, so Linkerd in particular but the 30 cluster also quite interesting. >> Yeah. So, I mean, you know, more generally, you know how we manage our clusters and things like that. We have, you know, a CLI tool that we use in order to like change context very quickly, and switch and communicate with whatever cluster we're trying to connect to and you know, are we debugging or getting logs, whatever. And then, you know, with Linkerd it's nice because again, you know, we aren't having to worry about like, oh, how is this cert being inserted in the right node? Or not the right node, but in the right cluster or things like that. Whereas with Linkerd, we don't really have that concern. When we spin up our clusters, essentially we get the route certificate and everything like that packaged up, passed along to Linkerd on installation. And then essentially, there's not much we have to do after that. >> So talk to me about your upcoming section here at Kubecon. what's the high level talking points? Like what attendees learn? >> Yeah. So it's a journey. Those are the sorts of talks that I find useful. Having not been, you know, I'm not a deep Kubernetes expert from, you know decades or whatever of experience, but-- >> I think nobody is. >> (indistinct). >> True, yes. >> That's also true. >> That's another story >> That's a job posting decades of requirements for-- >> Of course, yeah. But so, you know, it's a journey. It's really just like, hey, what made us decide on a service mesh in the first place? What made us choose Linkerd? And then what are the ways in which, you know, we use Linkerd? So what are those, you know we use some of the extra plugins and things like that. And then finally, a little bit about more what we're going to do in the future. >> Let's talk about not just necessarily the future as in two or three days from now, or two or three years from now. Well, the future after you immediately solve the low level problems with Linkerd, what were some of the surprises? Because Linkerd in service mesh and in general have side benefits. Do you experience any of those side benefits as well? >> Yeah, it's funny, you know, writing the blog post, you know, I hadn't really looked at a lot of the data in years on, you know when we did our investigations and things like that. And we had seen that we like had very low latency and low CPU utilization and things like that. And looking at some of that, I found that we were actually saving time off of requests. And I couldn't really think of why that was and I was talking with someone else and the biggest, unfortunately all that data's gone now, like the source data. So I can't go back and verify this but it makes sense, you know, there's the availability zone routing that Linkerd supports. And so I think that's actually doing it where, you know essentially, if a node is closer to another node, it's essentially, you know, routing to those ones. So when one service is talking to another service and maybe they're on the same node, you know, it short circuits that and allows us to gain some time there. It's not huge, but it adds up after, you know, 10, 20 calls down the line. >> Right. In general, so you are saying that it's smooth operations at this very, you know, simplifying your life. >> And again, we didn't have to really do anything for that. It handled that for us. >> It was there? >> Yep. Yeah, exactly. >> So we know one thing when I do it on my laptop it works fine. When I do it with across 22,000 pods, that's a different experience. What were some of the lessons learned coming out of Kubecon 2018 in San Diego? I was there. I wish I would've ran into the Microsoft folks, but what were some of the hard lessons learned scaling Linkerd across the 22,000 nodes? >> So, you know, the first one and this seems pretty obvious, but was just not something I knew about was the high availability mode of Linkerd. So obviously makes sense. You would want that in, you know a large scale environment. So like, that's one of the big lessons that like, we didn't ride away. No. Like one of the mistakes we made in one of our pre-production clusters was not turning that on. And we were kind of surprised. We were like, whoa, like all of these pods are spinning up but they're having issues, like actually getting injected and things like that. And we found, oh, okay. Yeah, you need to actually give it some more resources. But it's still very lightweight considering, you know, they have high availability mode but it's just a few instances still. >> So from, even from, you know, binary perspective and running Linkerd how much overhead is it? >> That is a great question. So I don't remember off the top of my head, the numbers but it's very lightweight. We evaluated a few different service missions and it was the lightest weight that we encountered at that point. >> And then from a resource perspective, is it a team of Linkerd people? Is it a couple of people? Like how? >> To be completely honest for a long time, it was one person Abraham, who actually is the person who proposed this talk. He couldn't make it to Valencia, but he essentially did probably 95% of the work to get into production. And then this was before, we even had a team dedicated to our infrastructure. And so we have, now we have a team dedicated, we're all kind of Linkerd folks, if not Linkerd experts, we at least can troubleshoot basically. And things like that. So it's, I think a group of six people on our team and then, you know various people who've had experience with it on other teams. >> But others, dedicated just to that. >> No one is dedicated just to it. No, it's pretty like pretty light touch once it's up and running. It took a very long time for us to really understand it and to, you know, get like not getting started, but like getting to where we really felt comfortable letting it go in production. But once it was there, like, it is very, very light touch. >> Well, I really appreciate you stopping by Chris. It's been an amazing conversation to hear how Microsoft is using a open source project. >> Exactly. >> At scale, it's just a few years ago when you would've heard the concept of Microsoft and open source together and like OS, just, you know-- >> They have changed a lot in the last few years. Now, there are huge contributors. And, you know, if you go to Azure, it's full of open source stuff, everywhere so. >> Yeah. >> Wow. The Kubecon 2022, how the world has changed in so many ways. From Valencia Spain, I'm Keith Townsend, along with Enrico Signoretti. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in high tech coverage. (upbeat music)

>>The cube presents, Coon and cloud native con Europe 22, brought to you by the cloud native computing foundation. >>Welcome to Valencia Spain in co con cloud native con Europe, 2022. I'm Keith Townsend with my cohos on Rico senior. Etti senior it analyst at gig home. Exactly 7,500 people I'm told en Rico. What's the flavor of the show so far, >>It's a fantastic mood. I mean, I found a lot of people wanting to track talk about what they're doing with Kubernetes, sharing their, you know, stories, some word stories that meet tough. And you know, this is where you learn actually, because we had a lot of zoom calls, webinar and stuff, but it is when you talk a video, oh, I did it this way and it didn't work out very well. So, and, and you start a conversation like this that is really different from learning from zoom. When, you know, everybody talks about things that working well, they did it, right. No, it's here that you learn from other experiences. >>So we're talking to amazing people the whole week, talking about those experiences here on the queue, fresh on the queue for the first time, Chris Vos, senior software engineer at Microsoft Xbox, Chris, welcome to the queue. >>Thank you so much for having >>Me. So first off, give us a high level picture of the environment that you're running at Microsoft. >>Yeah. So, you know, we've got 20, well probably close to 30 clusters at this point around the globe, you know, 700 to a thousand pods per cluster, roughly. So about 22,000 pods total. So yeah, it's pretty pretty sizable footprint and yeah. So we've been running on Kubernetes since 2018 and well actually might be 2017, but anyways, so yeah, that, that's kind of our, our footprint. >>Yeah. So all of that, let's talk about the basics, which is security across multiple I'm assuming containers, work, microservices, et cetera. Why did you and the team settle on link or do >>Yeah, so previously we had our own kind of solution for managing TLS certs and things like that. And we found it to be pretty painful pretty quickly. And so we knew, you know, we wanted something that was a little bit more abstracted away from the developers and, and things like that that allowed us to move quickly. And so we began investigating, you know, solutions to that. And a few of our colleagues went to Cuban in San Diego in 2019 cloud native con as well. And basically they just, you know, sped it all up. And actually funny enough, my, my old manager was one of the people who was there and he went to the link D booth and they had a thing going that was like, Hey, get set up with MTLS in five minutes. And he was like, this is something we want to do, why not check this out? And he was able to do it. And so that, that put it on our radar. And so yeah, we investigated several others and Leer D just perfectly fit exactly what we needed. >>So, so in general, we are talking about, you know, security at scale. So how you manage security to scale and also flexibility, right. But you know, what is the you, this there, you told us about the five minutes to start using there, but you know, again, we are talking about word stories. We talk about, you know, all these. So what, what, what kind of challenges you found at the beginning when you start adopting this technology? >>So the biggest ones were around getting up and running with like a new service, especially in the beginning, right. We were, you know, adding a new service almost every day. It felt like. And so, you know, basically it took someone going through a whole bunch of different repos, getting approvals from everyone to get the SEARCHs minted, all that fun stuff, getting them put into the right environments and in the right clusters to make sure that, you know, everybody is talking appropriately. And just the amount of work that, that took alone was just a huge headache and a huge barrier to entry for us to, you know, quickly move up the number of services we have. So, >>So I'm, I'm trying to wrap my head around the scale of the challenge. When I think about certification or certificate management, I have to do it on a small scale and the, the, every now and again, when a certificate expires, it is just a troubleshooting pain. Yes. So as I think about that, it costs, it's not just certificates across 22,000 pods or it's certificates across 22,000 pods in multiple applications. How were you doing that before link D like, what was the, what and what were the pain points? Like? What happens when a certificate either fails or expired up not, not updated? >>So, I mean, to be completely honest, the biggest thing is we're just unable to make the calls, you know, out or, or in, based on yeah. What is failing basically. But, you know, we saw essentially an uptick in failures around a certain service and pretty quickly, I pretty quickly, we got used to the fact that it was like, oh, it's probably a cert expiration issue. And so we tried, you know, a few things in order to make that a little bit more automated and things like that, but we never came to a solution that like didn't require every engineer on the team to know essentially quite a bit about this, just to get into it, which was a huge issue. >>So talk about day two after you've deployed link D how did this alleviate software engineers and what was like the, the benefits of now having this automated way of managing >>Certs? So the biggest thing is like, there is no touch from developers, everyone on our team. Well, I mean, there are a lot of people who are familiar with security and certs and all of that stuff, but no one has to know it. Like it's not a requirement. Like for instance, I knew nothing about it when I joined the team. And even when I was setting up our newer clusters, I knew very little about it. And I was still able to really quickly set up blinker D, which was really nice. And, and it's been, you know, essentially we've been able to just kind of set it and not think about it too much. Obviously, you know, there are parts of it that you have to think about. We monitor it and all that fun stuff, but, but yeah, it's been pretty painless almost day one. It took a lot, a long time to trust it for developers. You know, anytime there was a failure, it's like, oh, could this be link or D you know, but after a while, like now we don't have that immediate assumption because people have built up that trust, but >>Also you have this massive infrastructure, I mean, 30 cluster. So I guess that it's quite different to manage a single cluster and 30. So what are the, you know, consideration that you have to do to install this software on, you know, 30 different cluster manage different, you know, versions probably etcetera, etcetera, et cetera. >>So, I mean, you know, the, the, as far as like, I guess, just to clarify, are you asking specifically with Linky or are you just asking in more in general? Well, >>I mean, you, you can take the, the question in the, in two ways, so, okay. Yeah. Yes. Link in particular, but the 30 cluster also quite interesting. >>Yeah. So, I mean, you know, more generally, you know, how we manage our clusters and things like that. We have, you know, a CLI tool that we use in order to like, change context very quickly and switch and communicate with whatever cluster we're trying to connect to and, you know, are we debugging or getting logs, whatever. And then, you know, with link D it's nice because again, you know, we, we, aren't having to worry about like, oh, how is this cert being inserted in the right node or, or not the right node, but in the right cluster or things like that. Whereas with link D we don't, we don't really have that concern when we spin up our, our clusters, essentially we get the root certificate and, and everything like that packaged up, passed along to link D on installation. And then essentially there's not much we have to do after that. >>So talk to me about your upcoming coming section here at Q con what's the, what's the high level talking points? Like what, what will attendees learn? >>Yeah. So it's, it's a journey. Those are the sorts of talks that I find useful. Having not been, you know, I, I'm not a deep Kubernetes expert from, you know, decades or whatever of experience, but I think >>Nobody is >>Also true. That's another story. That's a, that's, that's a job posting decades of requirements for >>Of course. Yeah. But so, you know, it, it's a journey it's really just like, Hey, what made us decide on a service mesh in the first place? What made us choose link D and then what are the ways in which, you know, we, we use link D so what are those, you know, we use some of the extra plugins and things like that. And then finally, a little bit about more, what we're gonna do in the future. >>Let's talk about not just necessarily the future as in two or three days from now, or two or three years from now. Well, the future after you immediately solve the, the low level problems with link D what were some of the, the surprises, because link D in service me in general has have side benefits. Do you experience any of those side benefits as well? >>Yeah, it's funny, you know, writing the, the blog post, you know, I hadn't really looked at a lot of the data in years on, you know, when we did our investigations and things like that. And we had seen that we like had very low latency and low CPU utilization and things like that. And looking at some of that, I found that we were actually saving time off of requests. And I couldn't really think of why that was, and I was talking with someone else and the biggest, unfortunately, all that data's gone now, like the source data. So I can't go back and verify this, but it, it makes sense, you know, there's the availability zone routing that linker D supports. And so I think that's actually doing it where, you know, essentially if a node is closer to another node, it's essentially, you know, routing to those ones. So when one service is talking to another service and maybe on they're on the same node, you know, it, it short circuits that, and allows us to gain some, some time there. It's not huge, but it adds up after, you know, 10, 20 calls down the line. Right. >>In general. So you are saying that it's smooth operations in, in ATS, very, you know, simplifying your life. >>And again, we didn't have to really do anything for that. It, it, it handled that for it was there. Yeah. Yep. Yeah, exactly. >>So we know one thing when I do it on my laptop, it works fine when I do it with across 22,000 pods, that's a different experience. What were some of the lessons learned coming out of KU con 2018 in San Diego was there? I wish I would've ran to the microphone folks, but what were some of the hard lessons learned scaling link D across the 22,000 nodes? >>So, you know, the, the first one, and this seems pretty obvious, but was just not something I knew about was the high availability mode of link D so obviously makes sense. You would want that in a, you know, a large scale environment. So like, that's one of the big lessons that like, we didn't ride away. No. Like one of the mistakes we made in, in one of our pre-production clusters was not turning that on. And we were kind of surprised. We were like, whoa, like all of these pods are spinning up, but they're having issues like actually getting injected and things like that. And we found, oh, okay. Yeah, you need to actually give it some, some more resources, but it's still very lightweight considering, you know, they have high availability mode, but it's just a few instances still. >>So from, even from a, you know, binary perspective and running link D how much overhead is it? >>That is a great question. So I don't remember off the top of my head, the numbers, but it's very lightweight. We, we evaluated a few different service missions and it was the lightest weight that we encountered at that point. >>And then from a resource perspective, is it a team of link D people? Is it a couple of people, like how >>To be completely honest for a long time, it was one person, Abraham who actually is the person who proposed this talk. He couldn't make it to Valencia, but he essentially did probably 95% of the work to get a into production. And then this was before we even had a team dedicated to our infrastructure. And so we have, now we have a team dedicated, we're all kind of Linky folks, if not Linky experts, we at least can troubleshoot basically. And things like that. So it's, I think a group of six people on our team, and then, you know, various people who've had experience with it >>On other teams, but I'm not dedicated just to that. >>I mean, >>No one is dedicated just to it. No, it's pretty like pretty light touch once it's, once it's up and running, it took a very long time for us to really understand it and, and to, you know, get like, not getting started, but like getting to where we really felt comfortable letting it go in production. But once it was there, like, it is very, very light touch. >>Well, I really appreciate you stopping by Chris. It's been an amazing conversation to hear how Microsoft is using a open source project. Exactly. At scale. It's just a few years ago, when you would've heard the concept of Microsoft and open source together and like, oh, that's just, you know, but >>They have changed a lot in the last few years now, there are huge contributors. And, you know, if you go to Azure, it's full of open source stuff, every >>So, yeah. Wow. The Cuban 2022, how the world has changed in so many ways from Licia Spain, I'm Keith Townsend, along with a Rico senior, you're watching the, the leader in high tech coverage.

(upbeat music) >> Greetings from Los Angeles, Lisa Martin here with Dave Nicholson. We are on day three of the caves wall-to-wall coverage of KubeCon CloudNativeCon North America 21. We're pleased to welcome Mark Hinkle to the program, the co-founder and CEO of TriggerMesh. Mark welcome. >> Thank you, It's nice to be here. >> Lisa: Love the name. Very interesting TriggerMesh. Talk to us about what TriggerMesh does and what, when you were founded and what some of the gaps were that you saw in the market. >> Yeah, so TriggerMesh actually the Genesis of the name is in, cloud event, driven architecture. You trigger workloads. So that's the trigger and trigger mesh, and then mesh, we mesh services together, so cloud, so that's why we're called TriggerMesh. So we're a cloud native open source integration platform. And the idea is that, the number of cloud services are proliferating. You still have stuff in your data center that you can't decommission and just wholesale lift and shift to the cloud. So we wanted to provide a platform to create workflows from the data center, to the cloud, from cloud to cloud and not, and use all the cloud native design principles, but not leave your past behind. So that's, what we do. We're, very, we were cloud, we are cloud operators and developers, and we wanted the experience to be very similar to the way that DevOps folks are doing infrastructure code and deploying that we want to make it easy to do integration as code. So we follow the same design patterns, use the same domain languages, some of those tools like Hashi corpse, Terraform, and that that's what we do and how we go about doing it. >> Lisa: And when were you guys founded? >> September, 2018. >> Oh so your young, your three years young. >> Three years it's feels like 21 >> I bet. >> And startup years it's a lot has happened, but yeah, we my co-founder and I were former early cloud folks. We were at cloud.com worked through the OpenStack years and the CloudStack, and we just saw the pattern of, abstraction coming about. So first you abstract the hardware, then you abstract the operating system. And now at with the Kubernetes container, you know, evolution, you're abstracting it up to the application layer and we want it to be able to provide tooling that lets you take full advantage of that. >> Dave: So being founded in 2018, what's your perception of that? The shift that happened during the pandemic in terms of the drive towards cloud adoption and the demands for services like you provide? >> Mark: Yeah, I think it's a mixed blessing. So we, people became more remote. They needed to enable digital transformation. Biggest thing, I think that that for us is, you know, you don't go to the bank anymore. And the banking industry is doing, you know, exponentially more remote, online transactions than in person. And it's very important. So we decided that financial services is where we were going to start with first because they have a lot of legacy architecture. They have a lot of need to move to the cloud to have better digital experiences. And we wanted to enable them to, you know, keep their mainframes online while they were still doing cutting edge, you know, mobile applications, that kind of thing. >> Lisa: And of course the legacy institutions like the BFA's the Wells Fargo, they're competing with the fintechs who are much more nimble, much more agile and able to sort of disrupt the financial services industry. Was that part of also your decision to start in financial services? >> It was a little bit of luck because we started with our network and it turned out the, you know, we saw, we started talking to our friends early on, cause we're a startup and said, this is what we're going to do. And where it really resonated was PNC bank was our, one of our first customers. You know, another financial regulatory company was another one, a couple of banks in Europe. And we, you know, as we started talking about what we were doing, that we just gravitated there because they had the, the biggest need, even though everybody has the need, their businesses are, you know, critically tied to digital transformation. >> So starting with financial services. >> It's, it's counter intuitive, isn't it? >> It was counterintuitive, but it lends credibility to any other industry vertical that you're going to approach. >> Yeah, yeah it does. It's a, it's a great, they're going to be our hardest customers and they have more at stake than a lot of like transactions are millions and millions of dollars per hour for these folks. So they don't want to play around, they, they have no tolerance for failure. So it's a good start, but it's sort of like taking up jogging and running a marathon in your first week. It's very very grilling in that sense, but it really has made us a lot better and gave us a lot of insight into the kinds of things we need to do from not just functionality, but security and that kind of thing. >> Where are you finding these customers with respect to adoption of Kubernetes? Are they leading? Are they knowing we've got to get there eventually from an infrastructure perspective? >> So the interesting thing is Kubernetes is a platform for us to deliver on, so we, we don't require you to be a Kubernetes expert we offer it as a SaaS, but what happens is that the Kubernetes folks are the ones that we end up really engaging with earlier on. And I think that we find that they're in this phase of they're containerizing their apps, that's the first step. And then they're putting them on Kubernetes and then their next step is a security and integration path. So once she, I think they call it and this is my buzzword of the show day two operations, right? So they, they get to day two and then they have a security and an integration concern before they go live. So they want to be able to make sure that they don't increase their attack face. And then they also want to make sure that this newly deployed containerized infrastructure is as well integrated as the previous, you know, virtualized or even, you know, on the server infrastructure that they had before. >> So TriggerMesh, doesn't solely work in the containerized world, you're, you're sort of you're bridging the divide. >> Mark: Yes. >> What percentage of the workloads that you're seeing are the result of modernization migration, as opposed to standing up net new application environments in Kubernetes? Do you have a sense for that? >> I think we live in a lot in the brown field. So, you know, folks that have an existing project that they're trying to bridge to it versus the Greenfield kind of, you know, the, the huge wins that you saw in the early cloud days of the Netflix and the Twitter's Dwayne scale. Now we're talking to the enterprises who have, you know, they have existing concerns. So I would say that it's, it's mostly people that are, you know, very few net new projects, unless it's a modernization and they're getting ready to decommission an old one, which is. >> Dave: So Brownfield financial services. You just said, you know, let's just, let's just go after that. >> You know, yeah. I mean, we had this dart forward and we put up buzzwords, but no, it was, it was actually just, and you know, we're still finding our way as far as early on where we're open source folks. And we did not open source from day one, which is very weird when everybody's new, your identity is, you know, I worked, I was the VP of marketing for Linux foundation and no JS and all these open source projects. And my co-founder and I are Apache committers. And our project wasn't open yet because we had to get to the point where it could be open and people could be productive in the use and contribution. And we had to staff up engineers. And now I think this week we open-sourced our entire platform. And I think that's going to open up, you know, that's where we started because it was not necessarily the lowest hanging fruit, but the profitable, less profitable, lowest hanging fruit was financial services. Now we are letting our code out into the wild. And I think it'll be interesting to see what comes back. >> So you just announced that this week TriggerMesh integration platform as an open source project here at KubeCon, what's been some of the feedback? >> It's all been positive. I haven't heard anything negative. We did it, so we're very, very, there's a very, the culture around open source is very tough. It's very critical if you don't do it right. So I think we did a good job, we used enough, we used a OSI approved. They've been sourced, licensed the Apache software, a V2 license. We hired someone who was well-respected in the DevREL world from a chef who understands the DevOps sort of culture methodologies. We staffed up our engineers who are going to be helping the free and open source users. So they're successful and we're betting that that will yield business results down the road. >> Lisa: And what are the two I see on your website, two primary use cases that you guys support. Can you dig into details on that? >> So the first one is sort of a workflow automation and a really simple example of that is you have a, something that happens in one cloud. So for example, you take a picture on your phone and you upload it and it goes to Amazon and there is a service that wants to identify what's in that picture. And once you put it on the line and the internship parlance, you could kick off a workflow from TensorFlow, which is artificial intelligence to identify the picture. And there isn't a good way for clouds to communicate from one to the other, without writing custom blue, which is really what, what we're helping to get rid of is there's a lot of blue written to put together cloud native applications. So that's a workflow, you know, triggering a server less function is the workflow. The other thing is actually breaking up data gravity. So I have a warehouse of data, in my data center, and I want to start replicating some portion of that. As it changes to a database as a service, we can based on an event flow, which is passive. We're not, we're not making, having a conversation like you would with an API where there's an event stream. That's like drinking from the fire hose and TriggerMesh is the nozzle. And we can direct that data to a DBaaS. We can direct that data to snowflake. We can direct that data to a cloud-based data lake on Microsoft Azure, or we can split it up, so some events could go to Splunk and all of the events can go to your data lake or some of those, those things can be used to trigger workloads on other systems. And that event driven architecture is really the design pattern of the individual clouds. We're just making it multi-cloud and on-prem. >> Lisa: Do you have a favorite customer example that you think really articulates that the value of that use case? >> Mark: Yeah I think a PNC is probably our, well for the, for the data flow one, I would say we have a regular to Oracle and one of their customers it was their biggest SMB customer of last year. The Oracle cloud is very, very important, but it's not as tool. It doesn't have the same level of tooling as a lot of the other ones. And to, to close that deal, their regulatory customer wanted to use Datadog. So they have hundreds and hundreds of metrics. And what TriggerMesh did was ingest the hundreds and hundreds of metrics and filter them and connect them to Datadog so that, they could, use Datadog to measure, to monitor workloads on Oracle cloud. So that, would be an example of the data flow on the workflow. PNC bank is, is probably our best example and PNC bank. They want to do. I talked about infrastructure code integration is code. They want to do policy as code. So they're very highly regulatory regulated. And what they used to do is they had policies that they applied against all their systems once a month, to determine how much they were in compliance. Well, theoretically if you do that once a month, it could be 30 days before you knew where you were out of compliance. What we did was, we provided them a way to take all of the changes within their systems and for them to a server less cluster. And they codified all of these policies into server less functions and TriggerMesh is triggering their policies as code. So upon change, they're getting almost real-time updates on whether or not they're in compliance or not. And that's a huge thing. And they're going to, they have, within their first division, we worked with, you know, tens of policies throughout PNC. They have thousands of policies. And so that's really going to revolutionize what they're able to do as far as compliance. And that's a huge use case across the whole banking system. >> That's also a huge business outcome. >> Yes. >> So Mark, where can folks go to learn more about TriggerMesh, maybe even read about more specifically about the announcement that you made this week. >> TriggerMesh.com is the best way to get an overview. The open source project is get hub.com/triggermesh/trigger mesh. >> Awesome Mark, thank you for joining Dave and me talking to us about TriggerMesh, what you guys are doing. The use cases that you're enabling customers. We appreciate your time and we wish you best of luck as you continue to forge into financial services and other industries. >> Thanks, it was great to be here. >> All right. For Dave Nicholson, I'm Lisa Martin coming to you live from Los Angeles at KubeCon and CloudNativeCon North America 21, stick around Dave and I, will be right back with our next guest.

>> Narrator: From around the globe, it's theCUBE with coverage of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2020 Virtual brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and ecosystem partners. >> Hi I'm Stu Miniman and this is theCUBE's coverage of KubeCon, CloudNativeCon the 2020 European show of course happening virtually and that has put some unique challenges for the people running the show, really happy to welcome to the program she is one of the co-chairs of this event, and she is also a Principal Software Engineer at Splunk, Constance Caramanolis thank you so much for joining us. >> Hi, thank you for having me, I'm really excited to be here, it's definitely an interesting time. >> Alright, so Constance we know KubeCon it's a great community, robust everybody loves to get together there's some really interesting hallway conversations and so much going on, we've been watching, the four or five years we've been doing theCUBE at this show, just huge explosion of the breadth and depth of the content and of course, great people there. Just, if we could start with a little bit, your background, as I mentioned you're the co-chair, you work for Splunk by way of an acquisition, of Omnition try saying that three times fast, and Omnition you were telling me is a company that was bought really before it came out of stealth, but when it comes to the community itself, how long have you been involved in this community? What kind of led you to being co-chair? >> Yeah, I guess I've been involved with the community since 2017, so, I was at Lyft before Omnition Splunk, and I was lucky enough to be one of the first engineers, on Envoy you might've heard of Envoy, sorry I laugh at my own jokes. (laughing) Like my first exposure to KubeCon and seeing the CNCF community was KubeCon Austin and the thing that I was amazed by was actually you said it the hallway tracks, right? I would just see someone and be like, "Hey, like, I think I've seen your code review can I say hi?" And that started back on me at least a little bit involved in terms of talking to more people then they needed people I would work on a PR or in some of the community meetings and that was my first exposure to the community. And so I was involved in Envoy pretty actively involved in Envoy all the way until from 2016 until mid 2018 and then I switched projects and turning it left and did some other stuff and I came back into CNCF community, in OpenTelemetry as of last year, actually almost exactly a year ago now to work on making tracing, I'm going to say useful and the reason why I say useful is that usually people think of tracing as, not as important as metrics and logs, but there is so much to tracing that we tend to undervalue and that's why I got involved with OpenTelemetry and Omnition, because there's some really interesting ways that you could view tracing, use tracing, and you could answer a lot of questions that we have in our day-to-day and so that's kind of that's how I got involved in the second-round community and then ended up getting nominated to be on the co-chair and I obviously said yes, because this is an amazing opportunity to meet more people and have more of that hallway track. >> Alright, so definitely want to talk about OpenTracing, but let's talk about the event first, as we were talking about. >> Yeah. >> That community you always love the speakers, when they finish a session, they get mobbed by people doing questions. When you walk through the expo hall, you go see people so give us a little bit of insight as to how we're trying to replicate that experience, make sure that there's I don't know office hours for the speakers and just places and spaces for people to connect and meet people. >> Yeah, so I will say that like, part of the challenge with KubeCone EU was that it had already been meant to be an in person event and so we're changing it to virtual, isn't going to be as smooth as a KubeCon or we have the China event that's happening in a few weeks or at Boston, right that's still going on, like, those ones are being thought out a lot more as a proper virtual event. So a little bit of the awkwardness of, now everything is going to be online, right? It's like you can't actually shake someone's hand in a hallway but we are definitely trying to be cognizant of when I'm in terms of future load, like probably less content, right. It's harder to sit in front of a screen and listen to everything and so we know that we know we have enough bandwidth we're trying to find, different pieces of software that allow for better Q and A, right? Exactly, like the mobbing after session is go in as a speaker and one as attendee is sometimes like the best part about conferences is you get to like someone might've said something like, "Hey, like this little tidbit "I need to ask you more questions about this." So we're providing software to at least make that as smooth, and I'm putting this in quotation and as you'll be able to tell anyone who's watching as I speak with my hands. Right, so we're definitely trying to provide software to at least make that initial interaction as smooth as possible, maybe as easy as possible we know it's probably going to be a little bit bumpy just because I think it's also our first time, like everyone, every conference is facing this issue so it's going to be really interesting to see how the conference software evolves. It is things that we've talked about in terms of maybe offering their office hours, for that it's still something that like, I think it's going to be really just an open question for all of us, is that how do we maintain that community? And I think maybe we were talking or kind of when I was like planting the seed of a topic beforehand, it's like it's something I think that matters like, how do we actually define community? 'Cause so much of it has been defined off that hallway track or bumping into someone, right? And going into someone's booth and be like, like asking that question there, because it is a lot more less intimidating to ask something in person than is to ask it online when everyone gets to hear your question, right. I know I ask less questions online, I guess maybe one thing I want to say is that for now that am thinking about it is like, if you have a question please ask questions, right? If recording is done, if there's a recording for a talk, the speakers are usually made available online during the session or a bit afterwards, so please ask your questions when things come up, because that's going to be a really good way to, at least have a bit of that question there. And also don't be shy, please, even when I say like in terms of like, when it comes to review, code reviews, but if something's unintuitive or let's say, think about something else, like interact with it, say it or even ask that question on Twitter, if you're brave enough, I wouldn't but I also barely use Twitter, yeah I don't know it's a big open question I don't know what the community is going to look like and if it's going to be harder. >> Yeah, well, one of the things I know every, every time I go to the show conferences, when the keynote when it's always like, okay, "How many people is this your first time at the show?" And you look around and it's somewhere, third or half people attending for the first time. >> Yeah. I know I'm trying to remember if it was year and a half ago, or so there was created a kind of one-on-one track at the show to really help onboard and give people into the show because when the show started out, it was like okay, it was Kubernetes and a couple of other things now you've got the graduated, the incubated, the dozens of sandbox projects out there and then even more projects out there so, cloud-native is quite a broad topic, there is no wrong way where you can start and there's so many paths that you can go on. So any tips or things that we're doing this time, to kind of help broaden and welcome in those new participants? >> Yeah so there's two things, one is actually the one to attract is official for a KubeCon EU so we do have like, there's a few good talks in terms of like, how to approach KubeCon it was meant to originally be for a person but at least helping people in terms of general terms, right? 'Cause sometimes there's so much terminology that it feels like you need to carry, cloud-native dictionary around with you, doing that and giving suggestions there, so that's one of the first talks that's going to be able to watch on KubeCon so I highly suggest that, This is actually a really tough question because a lot of it would have been like, I guess it would have been for me, would have been in person be like, don't be afraid to like, if you see someone that, said something really interesting in a talk you attended, like, even if it's not after the question, just be like, "Hey, I thought what you said was really cool "and I just want to say I appreciate your work." Like expressing that appreciation and just even if it isn't like the most thoughtful question in the world just saying thank you or I appreciate you as a really good way to open things up because the people who are speaking are just as well most people are probably just as scared of going up there and sharing their knowledge as probably or of asking a question. So I think the main takeaway from that is don't be shy, like maybe do a nervous dance to get those jitters out and then after (laughing) and then ask that question or say like, thank you it's really nice to meet you. It's harder to have a virtual coffee, so hopefully they have their own teapot or coffee maker beside them, but offered you that, send an email I think, one thing that is very common and I have a hard time with this is that it's easy to get overwhelmed with how much content there is or you said it's just like, I first feel small and at least if everyone is focusing on Kubernetes, especially like a few years ago, at least and you're like, maybe that there are a lot of people who are really advanced but now that there's so many different people like so many people from all range of expertise in this subject matter experts, and interests that it's okay to be overwhelmed just be like, I need to take a step back because mentally attending like a few talks a day is like, I feel like it's taking like several exams 'cause there's so much information being bombarded on you and you're trying to process it so understand that you can't process it all in one day and that's okay, come back to it, right. It's a great thing is that all of these talks are recorded and so you can watch it another time, and I would say probably just choose like three or four talks that you're really excited about and listen to those, don't need to watch everything because as I said we can't process it all and that's okay and ask questions. >> Some great advice there because right, if we were there in person it was always, attend what you really want to see, are there speakers you want to engage with? Because you can go back and watch on demand that's been one of the great opportunities with the virtual events is you can have access on demand, you can poke and prod, personally I love that a lot of them you can adjust the speed of them so, if it's something that it's kind of an intro talk, I can crank it up to one and a half or 2X speed and get through more content or I can pause it, rewind if I'm not getting it. And the other opportunity is I tell you the last two or three years, when I'm at an event, I try to just spend my time, not looking at my phone, talking to people, but now there's the opportunity, hey, if I can be of help, if anybody in the community has a question or wants to get connected to somebody, we know a lot of people I'm easily reachable on Twitter and I'm not sitting on a plane or in the middle of something that being like, so there is just a great robust community out there, online, and it were great be a part of it. So speaking of projects, you mentioned OpenTelemetry, which is what, your day job works on it's been a really, interesting topic of course for those that don't know the history, there were actually two projects that merged, it was a OpenTracing and OpenCensus created OpenTelemetry, so why don't you bring us up to speed as to where we are with the project, and what people should be looking at at the show and throughout the rest of 2020? >> OpenTelemetry is very exciting, we just did our first beta release so for anyone who's been on the fence of, is OpenTelemetry getting traction, or is it something that you're like at, this is a really great time to want to get involved in OpenTelemetry and start looking into it, if it's as a viable project, but I guess should probably take a step back of what is OpenTelemetry, OpenTelemetry as you mentioned was the merging or the marriage of OpenTracing-OpenCensus, right? It was an acknowledgement that so many engineers were trying to solve the same problem, but as most of us knows, right, we are trying to solve the same problem, but we had two different implementations and we actually ended up having essentially a lot of waste of resources because we're all trying to solve the same problem, but then we're working on two different implementations. So that marriage was to address that because, right it's like if you look at all of the major players, all of the players on OpenTelemetry, right? They have a wide variety of vendor experience, right even as of speaking from the vendor hat, right vendors are really lucky that they get to work with so many customers and they get to see all these different use cases. Then there's also just so many actually end users who are using it and they have very peculiar use cases, too, even with a wide set of other people, they're not going to obviously have that, so OpenTelemetry gets to merge all of those different use cases into one, or I guess not into one, but like into a wide set of implementations, but at least it's maintained by a larger group instead of having two separate. And so the first goal was to unify tracing tracing is really far ahead in terms of implementation,, or several implementations of libraries, like Go, Java, Python, Ruby, like on other languages right now but quite a bit of lists there and there's even a collector too which some people might refer to as an agent, depending on what background they have. And so there's a lot of ways to one, implement tracing and also metrics for your services and also gather that data and manipulate it, right? 'Cause for example, tracings so tracing where it's like you can generate a lot of traces, but sometimes missing data and like the collector is a really great place to add data to that, so going back to the state of OpenTelemetry, OpenTelemetry since we just did a beta release, right, we're getting closer to GA. GA is something that we're tracking for at some point this year, no dates yet but it's something that we're really pushing towards, but we're starting to have a very stable API in terms of tracing a metric was on its way, log was all something we're wrapping up on. It is a really great opportunity to, all the different ways that we are that, we even say like service owners, applications, even business rate that we're trying to collect data and have visibility into our applications, this is a really great way to provide one common framework to generate all that data, to gather all that data and generate all that data. So it was really exciting and I don't know, we just want more users and why we say that is to the earlier point is that the more users that we have who are engaged with community, right if you want to open an issue, have a question if you want to set up a PR please do, like we really want more community engagement. It is a great time to do that because we are just starting to get traction, right? Like hopefully, hopefully in a year or two, like we are one of those really big, big projects right up on a CNCF KubeCon and it's like, let's see how much has grown. And it's a great time to join and help influence a project and so many chances for ownership, I know it's really exciting, the company-- >> Excellent well Constance, it's really exciting >> Yeah. >> Congratulations on the progress there, I'm sure everybody's looking forward to as you said GA later this year, want to give you the final word, yourself and Vicky Cheung as the co-chairs for the event, what's your real goal? What do you hope the takeaway is from this instance of the 2020 European show? Of course, virtual now instead of Amsterdam. I guess like two parts one for the takeaway is that it's probably going to be awkward, right? Especially again going back to the community is that we don't have a lot of that in person things so this will be an awkward interaction, but it's a really great place for us to want to assess what a community means to us and how we interact with the community. So I think it's going to be going into it with an open mindset of just knowing like, don't set the expectations, like any other KubeCon because we just know it won't be right, we can't even have like the after hours, like going out for coffee or drinks and other stuff there so having that there and being open to that being different and then also if you have ideas share it with us, 'cause we want to know how we can make it better, so expect that it's different, but it's still going to provide you with a lot of that content that you've been looking for and we still want to make that as much of a welcoming experience for you, so know that we're doing our best and we're open to feedback and we're here for you. >> Excellent, well Constance thank you so much for the work that you and the team have been doing on. absolutely, one of the events that we always look forward to, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you for having me. >> Alright, lots more coverage of theCUBE at KubeCon-Cloud Native on Europe 2020, I'm Stu Miniman and thanks for watching. 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>> Voice over: From around the globe, it's theCUBE with coverage of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2020 virtual, brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and Ecosystem Partners. >> Hi, I'm Stu Mittleman, and welcome back to theCUBE's Coverage of KubeCon CloudNativeCon Europe for 2020. Get to talk to the participants in this great community and ecosystem where they are around the globe. And when you think back to the early days of containers, it was, containers, they're lightweight, they're small, going to obliterate virtualization is often the headline that we had. Of course, we know everything in IT tends to be additive. And here we are in 2020 and containers and virtual machines, living side by side and often we'll see the back and forth that happens when we talk about virtualization in containers. To talk about that topic specifically, happy to welcome to the program, first time guest, Steve Gordon. He's the director of product management at Red Hat. Steve, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thanks so much Stu, it's great to be here. >> All right, as I teed up of course, virtualization was a wave that swept through the data center. It is a major piece, not only of what's in the data center, but even if you look at the public Clouds, often it was virtualization underneath there. Certain companies like Google, of course, really drove a container adoption. And often you hear when people talk about, I built something CloudNative, that underlying piece of being containerized and then using an orchestration layer like Kubernetes is what they talk about. So maybe stop for a sec, Red Hat of course, heavily involved in virtualization and containers, how you see that landscape and what's the general conversation you have with customers as to how they make the choice and how the lines blur between those worlds? >> Yeah, so at Red Hat, I think we've been working on certainly the current iteration of the next specialization with KVM for around 12 years and myself large portion of that. I think, one thing that's always been constant is while from the outside-in, specialization looks like it's been a fairly stable marketplace. It's always changing, it's always evolving. And what we're seeing right now is as people are adopting containers and even constructs built on top of containers into their workflows, there is more interest and more desire around how can I combine these things, recognizing that still an enormous percentage of my workloads are out there running in virtual machines today, but I'm building new things around them that need to be able to interact with them and springboard off of that. So I think for the last couple of years, I'm sure you yourself have seen a number of different projects pop up and the opensource community around this intersection of containers and visualization and how can these technologies compliment each other. And certainly KubeVirt is one of the projects that we've started in this space, in reaction to both that general interests, but also the real customer problems that people have, as they try and meld these two worlds. >> So Steve, at Red Hat Summit earlier this year, there was a lot of talk around container native virtualization. If you could just explain what that means, how that might be different from just virtualization in general, and we'll go from there. >> Sure, so back in, I think early 2017, late 2016, we started playing around this idea. We'd already seen the momentum around Kubernetes and the result the way we architected OpenShift, three at a time around, Kubernetes has this strength as an orchestration platform, but also a shared provider of storage, networking, et cetera, resources. And really thinking about, when we look at virtualization and containers, some of these problems are very common regardless of what footprint the workload happens to fit into. So leveraging that strength of Kubernetes as an orchestration platform, we started looking at, what would it look like to orchestrate virtual machines on that same platform right next to our application containers? And the extension of that the KubeVirt project and what has ultimately become OpenShift virtualization is based around that core idea of how can I make a traditional virtual machine to a full operating system, interact with and look exactly like a Kubernetes native construct, that I can use from the same platform? I can manage it using the same constructs, I can interact with it using the same console, all of these kinds of ideas. And then on top of that, not just bring in workloads as they lie, but enable really powerful workforce with people who are building a new application in containers that still need some backend components, say a database that's sitting in a VM, or also trying to integrate those virtual machines into new constructs, whether it's something like a pipeline or a service mesh. We're hearing a lot of questions around those things these days where people don't want to just apply those things to brand new workloads, but figure out how do they apply those constructs to the broader majority of their fleet of workflows that exist today. >> All right, so I believe back at Red Hat Summit, OpenShift virtualization was in beta. Where's the product that solution sets till today? >> Right, so at this year's KubeCon, we're happy to announce that OpenShift virtualization is moving to general availability. So it will be a fully supported part of OpenShift. And what that means is, you, as a subscriber to OpenShift, the platform, get virtualization as just an additional capability of that platform that you can enable as an operator from the operator hub, which is really a powerful thing for admins to be able to do that. But also is just really powerful in terms of the user experience. Like once that operator is enabled on your cluster, the little tab shows up, that shows that you can now go and create a virtual machine. But you also still get all of the metrics and the shared networking and so on that goes with that cluster, that underlies it all. And you can again do some really powerful things in terms of combining those constructs for both virtual machines and containers. >> When you talk about that line between virtualization and containers, a big question is, what does this mean for developers? How is it different from what they were using before? How do they engage and interact with their infrastructure today? >> Sure, so I think the way a lot of this current wave of technology got started for people was whether it was with Kubernetes or Docker before that, people would go and grab, easiest way they could grab compute for capacity was go to their virtual machine firm, whether that was their local virtualization estate at their company, or whether that was taking a credit card to public Cloud, getting a virtual machine and spinning up a container platform on top of that. What we're now seeing is, as that's transitioning into people building their workloads, almost entirely around these container constructs, in some cases when they're starting from scratch, there is more interest in, how do I leverage that platform directly? How do I, as my application group have more control over that platform? And in some cases, depending on the use case, like if they have demand for GPUs, for example, or other high-performance devices, that question of whether the virtualization layer between my physical host and my container is adding that much value? But then still wanting to bring in the traditional workloads they have as well. So I think we've seen this gradual transition where there is a growing interest in reevaluating, how do we start with container based architectures? To, okay, how has we transitioned towards more production scenarios and the growth in production scenarios? What tweaks do we make to that architecture? Does it still make sense to run all of that on top of virtual machines? Or does it make more sense to almost flip that equation as my workload mix gradually starts changing? >> Yeah, two thoughts come to mind on that. Number one is, are there specific applications out there, or I think about traditional VMs, often that Windows environments that we have there, is that some of the use case to bring them over to containers? And then also, once I've gotten it into the container environment, what are the steps to move forward? Because I have to expect that there's going to be some refactoring, some modernization to take advantage of the innovation and pace of change, not just to take it, containerize it and leave it. >> Yeah, so certainly, there is an enormous amount of potential out there in terms of Windows workloads, and people are definitely trying to work out how do they leverage those workloads in the context of OpenShift and Kubernetes based environment. And Windows containers obviously, is one way to address that. And certainly, that is very powerful in and of itself, for bringing those workloads to OpenShift and Kubernetes, but does have some constraints in terms of needing to be on a relatively recent version of Windows server and so on for those workloads to run in that construct. So where OpenShift virtualization helps with that is we can actually take an existing virtual machine workload, bring that across, even if it's say Windows server 2012, run it on top of the OpenShift virtualization platform as a VM, And then if or when you start modernizing more of that application, you can start teasing that out into actual containers. And that's actually something, it is one of our very early demos at Red Hat Summit 2018, I think was how you would go about doing that, and primarily we did that because it is a very powerful thing for customers to see how they can bring those, all the applications into this mix. And the other aspect of that I'll mention is one of our financial services customers who we've been working with, basically since that demo, they saw it from a hallway at Red Hat Summit and came and said, "Hey, we want to talk to you guys about that." One of the primary workload, is a Windows 10 style environment, that they happened to be bringing in as well. And that's more in that construct of treating OpenShift almost as a pool of compute, which you can use for many different workload types with the Windows 10 being just one aspect of that. And the other thing I'll say in terms of the second part of the question, what do I need to do in terms of refactoring? So we are very conscious of the fact that, if this is to provide value, you have to be able to bring in existing virtual machines with as minimal change as possible. So we do have a migration solution set, that we've had for a number of years, for bringing our virtual machines to Linux specialization stacks. We're expanding that to include OpenShift virtualization as a target, to help you bring in those existing virtual machine images. Where things do change a little bit is in terms of the operational approaches. Obviously, admin console now is OpenShift for those virtual machines, that does right now present a change. But we think it is a very powerful opportunity in terms of, as people get more and more production workloads into containers, for example, it's going to become a lot more appealing to have a backup solution, for example, that can cater to both the virtual machine workloads as well as any stateful container workloads you may have, which do exist in increasing numbers. >> Well, I'm glad you brought up a stateful discussion because as an industry, we've spent a long time making sure that virtual machines, have storage and have networking that is reliable in performance and the like. What should customers be thinking about and operators when they move to containers? Are there things that are different you manage bringing into, this brings them into the OpenShift management plane. So what else should I be thinking about? What do I need to do differently when I've embraced this? >> Yeah, so I think in terms of the things that virtual machine expects, the two big ones that come to mind to me are networking and storage. The compute piece is still there obviously, but I think is a little less complicated to solve just because the OpenShift and broader Kubernetes community have done such a great job of addressing that piece, and that's really what attracted us to it in the first place. But on the networking side, certainly the expectations of a traditional virtual machine are a little bit different to the networking model of Kubernetes by default. But again, we've seen a lot of growth in container based applications, particularly in the context of CloudNative network functions that have been pushing the boundaries of Kubernetes networking as well. That's resulted in projects like Motus, which allow us to give a virtual machine related to networking interface that it expects, but also give it the option of using the pod networking natively, for some of those more powerful constructs that are native to Kubernetes. So that's one of those areas where you've got a mix of options, depending on how far you want to go from a modernization perspective versus do I just want to bring this workload in and run it as it is. And my modernization is more built around it, in terms of the other container based things. Then similarly in storage, it's an area where obviously at Red Hat, we've been working close with the OpenShift container storage team, but we also work with a number of ecosystem partners on, not just how do we certify their storage plugins and make sure they work well both for containers and virtual machines, but also how do we push forward upstream efforts, around things like the container storage interface specification, to allow for these more powerful capabilities like snapshots cloning and so on which we need for virtual machines, but are also very valuable for container based workloads as well. >> Steve, you've mentioned some of the reasons why customers were moving towards this environment. Now that you're GA, what learnings did you have during beta? Are there any other customer stories you could share that you've learned along this journey? >> Yeah, so I think one of the things I'll say is that, there's no feedback like direct product in the hands of customer feedback. And it's really been interesting to see the different ways that people have applied it, not necessarily having set out to apply it, but having gotten partway through their journey and realized, hey, I need this capability. You have something that looks pretty handy and then having success with it. So in particular, in the telecommunications vertical, we've been working closely with a number of providers around the 5G rollouts and the 5G core in particular, where they've been focused on CloudNative network functions. And really what I mean by that is the wave of technology and the push they're making around 5G is to take what they started with network function virtualization a step further, and build that next generation network around CloudNative technologies, including Kubernetes and OpenShift. And as I've been doing that, I have been finding that some of the vendors are more or less prepared for that transition. And that's where, while they've been able to leverage the power of containers for those applications that are ready, they're also able to leverage OpenShift virtualization as a transitionary step, as they modernize the pieces that are taking a little bit longer. And that's where we've been able to run some applications in terms of the load balancer, in terms of a carrier grade database on top of OpenShift virtualization, which we probably wouldn't have set out to do this early in terms of our plan, but we're really able to react quickly to that customer demand and help them get that across the line. And I think that's a really powerful example where the end state may not necessarily be to run everything as a virtual machine forever, but that was still able to leverage this technology as a powerful tool in the context of our broadened up optimization effort. >> All right, well, Steve, thank you so much for giving us the updates. Congratulations on going GA for this solution. Definitely look forward to hearing more from the customers as they come. >> All right, thanks so much Stu. I appreciate it. >> All right, stay tuned for more coverage of KubeCon CloudNativeCon EU 2020, the virtual edition. I'm Stu Stu Mittleman. And thank you for watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>> [] From around the globe, it's theCUBE with coverage of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2020. Virtual, brought to you by Red Hat, the cloud native computing foundation and the ecosystem partners. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman. And this is theCUBE coverage of KubeCon CloudNativeCon 2020 in Europe the virtual edition and you've reached the final stage. This is our last interview so hopefully, learned a lot talking to the CNCF members. We've had a few great practitioners, of course, some of the important vendors and startups in this space. And when we talk about what's happening in this, this cloud native space, one of the things that gets bandied about a lot is scale. What does that mean? You know, when it first rolled out, of course, there is only one Google out there, and only a handful of true hyperscalers. But there absolutely are some companies that really need scale, performance global and so happy to bring in he is the final boss. It is Alexandria McLean. He's a technical architect at Ubisoft. And yes, I do have a little bit of background in gaming. But here's someone that is helping enable in one of the largest gaming companies in the globe. So Alexandra, thanks so much for joining us. >> Hey, thanks for the invitation, happy to be here. >> All right, so you're no novice to this ecosystem. I know you and I have both been at many of the Docker cons, the KubeCons over the years. So if you could just give our audience a little bit of your background and what is your team responsible for Ubisoft? >> Okay, sure, so I am part of the one of the IT teams inside Ubisoft. So we're responsible mainly to provide cloud computing resources and Kubernetes infrastructure for the whole company. So again, and if you want to know more about basically, I've been, I've been leading the Kubernetes initiative, the past few years right now. So we started the journey maybe in 2016. We're already pretty busy, you know, working on the growth for the cloud, the cloud industry to stand Ubisoft, for the growth of the expansion, different data centers and supporting the needs of the different teams and development teams inside Ubisoft. And one thing we wanted to do back then was really to enable and accelerate the adoption of cloud native, the cloud native mindset and cloud native architectures. So what we did back then is did, we did a short analysis of our different technologies that was available at the time, and we decided to jump full head on Kubernetes and make this as the foundation for the different workloads, container workloads that will be that will enable drive adoption inside Ubisoft to grow and boost the productivity of many things. >> Alright, I'm really glad you brought up that cloud native mindset, if you could just up-level a little bit for, you know, the business leaders out there, they hear about, you know, Kubernetes and they won't know how to spell it. They hear something like a cloud native mindset, and they say, you know, I don't understand, what does this mean for our business? So what architecturally are you doing and what does that mean for you know, your games and ultimately your end users? >> Yeah, so I would say that basically, I mean, if you want to have a cloud native architecture, really want to make your application, first of all, very portable, very easy to deploy and manageable, and at the same time very resilient to failure. So you want to make sure that your application once it's deployed, that it's highly resilient to failure, that it was built for failures and that you can manage the project and the service to meet the expectation of either the gamers or the service owners basically. >> Yeah, you know, absolutely. I'm curious, here in 2020, we see the ripple effects of what the global pandemic has. I have to imagine that from a gaming standpoint, that has had an impact. So maybe if we use that as an analogy, if it's valid from your standpoint, I have to imagine more people are using it. What did this mean to your infrastructure? How were you ready from an IT's perspective to support that, you know, increased usage, kind of rippling around the globe as more people are home all the time? >> Hmm, yeah, that's a good question I guess. I mean, we really have like two kind of, I would say, audience inside Ubisoft in the IT team that I serve. So we have the people who are building the softwares and the applications to help the developers to, I mean the game developers in general, so we have different services, internal services, and tooling that needs to be hosted somewhere. And we need to enable these people in these teams to have a way to manage applications efficiently. And the other side we are looking at right now, I mean, we the game server and the gaming industry, is really, I think there's a shift right now in the way that she prefer doing, the way that you're going to manage the game servers in the future. And I would say that back then, there was a lot of in house tooling, things that were really, I mean, appropriately proprietary to each gaming company. But right now, what we wanted to do in the past few years, we work for instance on a solution called hygienist. So we were involved in the beginning to design this kind of next gen game server, dedicated server hosting infrastructure that was all built around communities. So, in the future, we were already started to work on that, and the next gen of games are going to be difficult to stay on top of Kubernetes, which is going to enable a lot more efficiency of resource usage and now at the same time, we'd say manageability and the profitability about all these services. Because I think that one key thing about cloud native and Kubernetes is that, once you know Kubernetes, I mean, basically, it's very easy to onboard new people in the team, the project, because they know what is Kubernetes how to operate it. So it will be much more efficient in the future for all the workflows that we have internally and the next game server infrastructure as well to be hosted in Kubernetes, it's going to be much more easy to standardize and unify that whole stack. >> Well, the skill sets are so critically important. And it's great to hear you say that onboarding somebody in Kubernetes, is easier than it might have been a couple of years ago. If you could bring us inside a little bit, you know, what's your stack look like? You know, you know, can you say what cloud or cloud you use? When it comes to Kubernetes, you know, what are the key tools that you're using and partners that you have? >> Yeah, sure. So early on, I would say, almost 10 years ago, we really started to focus on adding on prem cloud infrastructure and the technology that we chose back then was OpenStack. So we have a large footprint of OpenStack called install, installed internally and different data centers all over the world so people and different teams and anyone at Ubisoft can easily have computers or compute resources available for them. And with Kubernetes, we initially we wanted to have, you know, to make your Kubernetes a commodity. We wanted to ask people be very I mean in a position to easily experiment new things, new applications on top of Kubernetes. And for that we decided to go with Rancher. So Rancher is an open source solution made by Rancher labs, and we, initially after we started to build and in our solution, the first year because we talked back then the landscape was quite different and we thought it was the best choice for us to do. But we realized shortly after, I mean, when Rancher 2.2 came out, I think it was in something like April 2018, that we will benefit a lot go with this kind of solution which was open sourced, there was a lot of traction behind it and it will enable us to I mean, accelerate, accelerate the adoption of Kubernetes and cloud native in general, much more faster, than the you know solutions that we had built at that time. So we went with Rancher and right now we have, I would say, I mean, we have maybe 10 data centers with the cloud installed on top of it, much more data centers was going to grow in the next couple of months and years, and we have over 200 clusters and 1000 nodes that are managed by Rancher and people can just deploy on demand, to own Kubernetes cluster and get started with it if they want to. >> Okay, so if I heard you right, it's Rancher on top of the OpenStack solution in your data centers. >> Yes. >> You talk about how many clusters you have, you know, what's the state of managing those environments? You said, you're using Rancher that's one of the things we've seen a lot of discussion over the last couple of years is you know, went from managing containers to managing you know, part or cluster to now, multi clusters around multi sites, you know, what's the maturity today? Anything that you're looking for that would make your life easier to manage such a broad environment? >> Yeah, well, I would say that's one of the drawback, I mean, when we enabled that solution with Rancher we didn't see, I mean, here's the views of launching provisioning new clusters, is that right now, we have a lot of clusters, maybe too many, because we try to consolidate, I mean, the next, the next logical step for us is we try to consolidate the workloads maybe as much as possible, and see if there's really a need for people to have their own dedicated cluster for them. And initially, there was a lot of demand for that, because people basically they came to us and they said, you know, we want to use Kubernetes. And what we want to do is we want to have films which we have access to it, we want to be able to do whatever we want with it, upgrade it at our own pace. And I don't want to have any neighbor on it. I want to be completely isolated in terms of computer resources. So we said all right, we're going to make a solution that is going to provision new clusters on demand for everyone. And the intro stuff may very well. But now, after a while some people and we as especially as an IT provider and operator, we realized that, you know, maybe people don't have to be completing alone to cluster, maybe we should try to consolidate that a little bit. So we're trying to migrate workloads from certain services and tooling and say maybe you can, instead of running your own cluster, you can use this one that is going to be shared. And there will be a team dedicated I mean dedicated to support and operate is faster for you because we want to in the end, we want to offload the burden of infrastructure and Kubernetes although it's I mean, it brings a lot of abstraction in simplicity, you still have to manage your cluster in the end. So we'd rather have people focus on the application side than on the Kubernetes infrastructure side. So we will start a path of maybe try to consolidated friend workloads, and see if we can reduce the amount of clusters that we have and also to unify the way that people are using the different providers because although we have, a huge open OpenStack cloud offering internally on prem, there are still people who need to use GKE or EKS and a couple of other external cloud providers. So for these people, some of them are not using really Rancher, although it's possible with Rancher to just directly using the providers. But what we want to do is try to unify the way that you're going to get access to this cluster, try to make a central governance model for people to pass through a central team to get access and prevent the cluster. So they will be standardized, we will be able to add more maybe security policies and compliance and rules and everything. So the cluster will be created in certain ways and that too much fragmented as they are today. >> Yeah, that's ultimately what I was trying to understand is most customers I talked to, they have hybrid environments, they're using multiple clouds, if you're using Kubernetes you know, how do you get your arms around that. So I'd love to get your viewpoint just 'cause you've been involved since, kind of the early Kubernetes days, you know, what's, what's better now than it was a few years ago? You know, I heard you say that you looked at possibly, you know, creating a solution to yourself so a company like Rancher helps simplify things. So when you look at the maturity, you know, how happy are you with what you have now? And are there any things that you say, boy, I'd love my team to not have to worry about this. You know, maybe the industry as a whole would be able to, you know, standardize or make things simpler? >> Well, you know, when we started to use Rancher maybe there were a couple of things that we wanted to simplify for the users because what Rancher does is essentially is that, there's a lot of configuration options. It's very flexible because it's first mining providers. So the first few things that we did was try to simplify the user experience who we will extend we modified ventures in some ways to make It's simpler to be consumed. And also, the experience is much more simpler than it was, let's say two years ago when we started, we still want to simplify it even further, we want to ideally provide a fully manage experience. So peoples don't even have to worry about the control plane components that is currently being deployed with their competitors clusters. We want to remove that away from them so that we, once again fully focus on the application side of development. And I think one other aspect that we need to maybe improve in the future is that, when you want to deploy your application and make it resilient and geographically distributed, then you need to manage multiple clusters, and you need to deploy your applications and performance cluster. So, the whole multi cluster aspect of things like, how do I deploy my application from a version? How do I make it like consistent between the different clusters that where it needs to be deployed. How do I make service discovery possible? Or do I mesh everything all the application together to make sure that it's easy to operate, it's easy for the developers, and that it's resilient in the end. So we will start to look at the, I mean, the multi cluster multi region aspect for Kubernetes. Because that's a big challenge to us. >> All right, well, Alexandre, want to shift for a second, let's talk about the conference, KubeCon, CloudNativeCon, obviously, it's virtual this year, so there is a little bit of shift but you know, you've attended many of these in the past. What are their projects that you're interested in learning more or are there you know, peers of yours that you're looking to collaborate with? What have you seen in the past that that you're hoping you still get, from a virtual event like we have this year? >> Well, you know, I think that it has become so big, it's hard to keep up with everything that's happening at the same time, you know, nowadays, but, things that we're looking at really, is maybe like, I think chapters maybe, in terms of service mesh to a lot of technologies, I think it's maturing slowly. So we'll have, we'll always try to have a look about what is the most, the best fit for us and the use cases that we have. And some people thought you're using Kubernetes, some other people are using, you know more traditional stacks, So we try to bridge that together and see what's possible to migrate the existing workloads from the traditional cloud VMs, and call applications toward Kubernetes and everything. So maybe try to see if it's possible to bridge that path and migrate gradually for the users that we have. And other things in general, I think that it will be very interesting to see the whole bear setups, I mean, evolving to run out and see are we can try to add conformance and compliance rules to different clusters that we have to manage to make sure that it's no longer like, just add a matter of I want to create a cluster, I get access to it. We need to centralize the governance. We need to centralize that, the rules of our everything's going to be managing the end and make sure that security is a big aspect to it so make sure that there's no vulnerabilities and everything's being audited. And especially for the game students is going to be a big factor for us. So we definitely our interested into all the security discussion that's happening right now. >> All right, no shortage of lots of information. Alexandre, by the way, that there's no way that anybody can keep up on everything that's happening in this very robust community. But thank you so much for sharing your journey. It's always great to hear from the practitioner. Thanks so much for joining us. >> Thanks for having me, awesome. >> All right, and thank you for joining us, for all the coverage. Be sure to go to theCUBE.net, you can see not only all the interviews from this show, you can go search find previous shows as well as see what events we will be at, of course right now all virtually, so, am Stu Miniman and thank you as always for watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: Live from San Diego, California, it's theCUBE, covering Kubecon and CloudNativeCon brought to you by Redhat, a CloudNative computing foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE, we are here in San Diego where we are keeping CloudNative classy. I'm Stu Miniman, and my cohost is John Troyer, and we are happy to welcome back to the program, our host, Dan Kohn, who is the executive director of the CloudNative computing foundation, or the CNCF. Dan, thank you so much for having us. >> Thrilled to be back again. >> All right, and, yeah, so our fourth year doing this show, the big shows-- >> Dan: Nothing's really changed. You just tear right along the same level. One year to the next, you can just confuse them pretty easily.. >> So, you know, Dan, we actually did a prediction show yesterday, and I said, maybe it's my math background, but I look back two years ago, it was four thousand, then eight thousand, now twelve thousand, so I predict Boston must be sixteen thousand because I was used to those standardized tests, but with the growth, you never know, and it is very difficult, you know, we talk about planning, we've talked, this facility was booked before-- >> Dan: Two years ago. >> --the curve really started taking off. So, help us set the stage a little bit, we're getting towards the end of the event, but you know, tons of day zero things, so many sessions, so many people, there were pre-show events I heard that started like the end of last week, so, it's a small city in this community in so many pieces, and the CNCF helps enable all of it. >> It does, and what's fun for us is just that, the community is out there adopting these technologies and contributing to it and growing, and being able to come together, this is always our biggest event in North America but also in Europe and China. It's just a really nice snapshot of the point of time, in saying, okay, where are things, how many companies are interested in having sponsor booths, how many developers are there, how many track, but, I think maybe my favorite anecdote from Kubecon CloudNativeCon San Diego is that there was a, so we offer, a CFP track, a call for proposals that's extremely competitive, only 12% of the talks get accepted. And then we have a maintainer track, where the different providers can have either an intro, a deep-dive, or both. So the deep dive for the project Helm, which is not even a graduated project yet, I mean, it's very widely used, package manager for Kubernetes, but the deep dive for Helm had more than 1600 people inside their session, which is more than we had at all of attending Kubecon 2015 and 2016 combined. >> So, Dan, one of the words that gets mentioned a lot in this space, and it has lots of different meanings, is "scale". You know, we talk about Kubernetes built for big scale, we're talking about Edge computing which goes to small scale. This event, you look at the ecosystem. There's a thirty foot banner with all of the logos there, you look at the landscape-- >> Dan: They're not that big, either. >> --there are so many logos on there. Actually, I really thought you had an enjoyable yet useful analogy in your opening keynote. You talk about Minecraft. I've got a boy, he plays Xbox, I've seen Minecraft, so when he pulls up the little chart and there's like, you know, all of these little things on the side, my son can tell you how they're used and what you can build with them, I would be completely daunted looking at that, much like many of the people coming to this show, and they look around and they're like, I don't even know where to start. >> And that was fun keynote for me to put together, because I did need to make sure, both on the Minecraft part, that all the formulas were correct, I didn't want anyone... But then I drew the analogy to Kubernetes and how it is based on a set of building blocks, hundreds of them, that have evolved over time, and for that, I actually did some software archeology of reaching out to the people who created the original IPFW, Linux firewall 20 years ago based on PSD and then the evolution since then, made sure that they were comfortable with my description of it. But now, bringing it out to Kubecon, CNCF, we have a lot of projects now, so we're up to 43. When we met in Seattle four years ago, it was 2. And so it's definitely incumbent on CNCF to do a good job, and we can probably do an even better one on trying to draw this trail map, this recommended path through understanding the technologies, deciding on which ones people might want to adopt. >> Yeah, I think that would be really interesting. In fact, the words trail map kind of came up on Twitter, today, I saw. And one of the things that struck me was how the first rule of Kubecon is, well, Kubernetes is not maybe in the center of everything, it's underneath everything, but, like you said, 42 projects in the CNCF, many more projects, open-source projects, of course, from different vendors, from different coalitions, that you can see here on the show floor as well, if not in a session, so, without giving a maybe a CNCF 101, what does the path forward look like in terms of that, the growth of projects within the CNCF umbrella, the prominence of Kubecon, are we headed towards CloudNativeCon? >> Well, we've always been calling it Kubecon CloudNativeCon, and we could reverse the names, but I don't see any particular drive to do that. But I would really emphasize, and give credit to Craig McLuckie and some of the other people who originally set up CNCF, where Google had this technology, if they'd come to the Linux Foundation and said, we want to call it the Kubernetes Foundation, we probably would've said yes to that. But the impact, then, would be that all of these other technologies and approaches would have come in and said, we need to become part of the Kubernetes project, and instead, there was a vision of an ecosystem, and the reality is that Kubernetes is still by far the largest project. I mean, if you look at the total number of contributors, I believe it's approximately the same between Kubernetes and our other 42 projects combined. So, and of course, there's overlap. But in that sense, in some ways, Kubernetes sort of represents the sun, and the other projects are orbiting around it, but from the beginning, the whole idea was to say that we wanted to allow a diversity of different approaches, and CNCF has had this very clear philosophy that we're not king makers, that if you look at our landscape document, where we look at different functions like key management or container run times or databases or others, there can be multiple CNCF hosted projects in each box. And so far at least, that approach seems to be working quite well. >> Yeah, Dan, having been to a number of these, the maturity and progress is obvious. Something we've said is Kubernetes is really table sticks at this point, no matter where I go, there is going to be Kubernetes, and therefore, I've seen it some over the last year or so, but very prominent on this show, we're talking about work loads, we're talking about applications, you know, it's defining and explaining that CloudNative piece of it, and the tough thing is, you know, modern applications and building applications and that AppDev community. So, you know, speak a little bit-- You've got a very diverse audience here, talk about the personas you have to communicate with, and who you're attracting to this. I know they put out lots of metrics as to the surveys and who's coming and who's participating. >> Well, we do, and we'll be publishing those, and I love the fact. I think some people misunderstand in the thinking that Kubecon CloudNativeCon is all infrastructure engineers, and something like a third or more of the attendees are application developers, and so I do think there's this natural move, particularly towards AppDev. The difference is that on the infrastructure side, there's just a really strong consensus about Kubernetes, as you're saying, where on the application development side, it's still very early days. And I mean, if anything, I think really the only area that there is consensus on is that the abstractions that Kubernetes provides are not the ones that we want to have regular application developers at most enterprises working with, that they shouldn't actually need to build their own container and then write the YAML in order to configure it. Brian Liles hit that point nicely with his keynote today around Rails. But so we can agree that what we have isn't the right outcome, we can agree that whatever are the winning solutions are very likely underneath going to be building those containers and writing the YAML. But there are so many different approaches right now, at a high layer on what that right interface is. >> Yeah, I mean, just, one example I have, I had the opportunity to interview Bloomberg for the second time. And a year ago, we had talked very much about the infrastructure, and this year we talked about really, they've built internally that PaaS layer, so that their AppDevs, they might know that there's Kubernetes, but they don't have to interface with that at all. I've had a number of the CNCF end user members participate, maybe, speak to that, the community of end users participating, and end user usage overall. >> Yeah, so when we first met in Seattle four years ago, we had three members of our end user community. We appreciated them joining early, but that was a tough call. But to be up to 124 now, representing almost every industry, all around the world, just a huge number of brand names, has been fantastic. What is interesting is, if you go talk to them, almost all of them are using Kubernetes as the underlying layer for their own internal PaaS, and so the regular developers in their organizations can often just want to type get push, and then have the continuous integration run and the things built and then deployed out and everything. But it's somewhat surprising there hasn't yet been a level of consensus on what that sort of common PaaS, the common set of abstractions on top should be. There's a ton of our members and developers and others are all working to sort of build that winning solution, but I don't have a prediction for you yet. >> And of course, skill interoperability and skill transferability is going to be key in growing this ecosystem, but I thought the stats on you know, the searches you can do on the number of job openings for Kubernetes is incredible. >> Yeah, so on the interoperability, we were very pleased to announce Tuesday that we've now passed 100 certified vendors, and of all the things that CNCF does, probably even including Kubecon, I might say that that certified Kubernetes program is the one that's had the biggest impact. To have implementations from over 100 different organizations that you can take the same workloads and move them across and have the confidence, those APIs will be supported, it's just a huge accomplishment, and in some ways, up there with WiFi or Bluetooth or some of the best interoperability standards. And then you mentioned the job support, which is another-- >> Yeah, I want to transfer engineers too, as well as workloads. >> --area that we're thrilled, and we just launched that, but we now have a couple hundred jobs listed on it and a bunch of people applying, and it's just a perfect example of the kind of ecosystem development that we're thrilled to do, and in particular the fact that we're not charging either the employers or the applicants, so it's jobs.CNCF.io to get access to that. >> Great. Dan, you also mentioned in your keynote, Kubernetes has crossed the chasm. That changes the challenges that you have when you start talking about you know, the early or mid majority environment, so I know you've been flying around the globe, there's not only the three big events, but many small events, talk about how CNCF6 mission helps you know, educate and push, I guess not push, but educate and further innovation. >> Yeah, and just enable. So, one of the other programs we have is the Kubernetes Certified service provider, these are organizations, essentially consulting firms, that have a deep expertise that have had at least three of their engineers pass our certified Kubernetes administrator exam, and it is amazing now that we've passed 100 of those, but they're in over 30 different countries. So we're just thrilled to see businesses all around the world be able to take advantage of that. And I do get to go to a lot of events around the world; we're actually, CNCF is hosting our first ever events in Seoul and in Sydney in two weeks, that I'm quite excited for, and then in February, we're going to be back in India, and we're going to be in Bengaluru, where we had a very successful event in March. We'll be there in February 2020 and then our first one in New Delhi, those are both in the third week of February. And I think it does just speak to the number of people who are really eager for these to soak this up, but one of the cool things about it is we're combining both local experts, half of our speakers are local, half are international, and then we do a beginner track and an advanced track. >> Yeah, Dan, you know, I'd just love a little bit of insight from you as to, there's a little bit of uncontrolled chaos when you talk about open source. Many of the things that we're talking about this year, a year ago, we would've been, oh my gosh, I would've never thought of that. So give us what it's like to be kind of at the eye of the hurricane, if you would. >> A lot of criticism, to be honest. An amazing number of people like to point out the things that we're not quite doing correctly. But you know, the huge challenge for an organization like CNCF, where, we're a non-profit, these events are actually spinning off money that we're then able to reinvest directly into the projects, so doing things like a quarter million dollars for a security audit for Kubernetes that we were able to publish. Or a Jepson testing for NCD, or improving documentation and such. So a big part of it is trying to create those positive feedback loops, and have that, and then another huge part is just, given all the different competing interests and the fact that we literally have every big technology company in the world on our board and then all of the, I mean, hundreds of start ups that tend to be very competitive, it's just really important that we treat organizations similarly. So that all of our platinum members are treated the same, all our gold, all our silver, and then within the projects, that all the graduated projects are treated similarly, incubating, sandbox, and people really notice. I have kids, and it's a little bit there, where they're sort of always believing that the other kid is getting extra attention. >> Yeah, right, you can't be the king maker, if it will, you're letting it out. Look out a little bit, Dan, and you know, we still have more growth to go in the community, obviously the event has room for growth. What do you see looking forward to 2020 and beyond? >> Yeah, I would love to predict some sort of amazing discontinuity where everyone adopts these technologies and then CNCF is not necessary anymore, something like that. But the reality is, I mean, I love that crossing the chasm metaphor, and I do think it's very powerful, and we really do say 2018 was the year that Kubernetes crossed the chasm from the early adopters to the early majority, but I would emphasize the fact that it's only the early majority. We haven't reached in to the entire second half of the curve, the late majority and the laggards. And so there are a ton of organizations here at the event who are just getting up to speed on this and realizing, oh, we really need to invest and start understanding it. And so, I mean, I don't, we also talk about there will be some point of peak Kubecon, just like peak Loyal, and I don't yet see any signs of it being 2019 or 2020, but it's something that we're very cognizant of and working hard to try and ensure that the event remains useful for people and that they're seeing value from it. I mean, there was a real question when we went from one thousand Seattle four years ago to four thousand in Austin three years ago, oh, is this event even still useful, can developers still interact, do you still have conversations, is the hallway track still valuable? And thankfully, I'm able to chat with a lot of the core developers, where this is their fifth North American Kubecon and they're saying, no, I'm still getting value out of it. Now, what we tend to hear from them is, "but I didn't get to go to any sessions," or "I have so many hallway tracks and private meetings and interactions and such," but the great thing there is that we actually get all of these sessions up on YouTube within 48 or 72 hours, and so, people ask me, "oh, there's 18 different tracks, how do I decide which one to go to?" And I always say, "go to the one where you want to interact with the speaker afterwards, or ask a question," because the other ones, you can watch later. But there isn't really a substitute for being here on the ground. >> Well, there's so much content there, Dan, I think if they start watching now, by the time you get to Amsterdam, they'll have dented a little bit. >> I'll give a quick pitch for my favorite Chrome extension, it's called Video Speed Player. And you can speed people up to 120, 125%, get a little bit of that time back. >> Yeah, absolutely, we have at the backend of ours, there is YouTube, so you can adjust the speed and it does help most of the time, and you can back up a few seconds if needed. Dan, look, congratulations, we know you have a tough role, you and the CNCF, we really appreciate the partnership. We love our community, it has had a phenomenal time this week at the show, and look forward to 2020 and beyond. >> I do as well, I really want to thank you for being with us through this whole way, and I think it is just an important part of the ecosystem. >> And I know John Furrier also says thank you and looks forward to seeing you next year. >> Oh, absolutely. >> Dan, thank you so much. John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman, getting towards the end of our three days, wall-to-wall coverage here in sunny San Diego, California, thanks for watching theCUBE.

>> Live from Barcelona, Spain, it's the Cube, covering KubeCon CloudNativeCon Europe 2019. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and Ecosystem Partners. >> Welcome back, this is theCube getting towards the end of two days live wall-to-wall coverage here at KubeCon, CloudNativeCon 2019 in Barcelona. I'm Stu Miniman, my co-host for this week has been Corey Quinn and happy to have on one of our hosts for this week from the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, Dee Kumar, the Vice President of Marketing, also helps with developer relations. Dee, welcome back to the program. >> Thanks for having me. >> And thank you for having us. We've been having a great time this week, a lot of buzz, a lot of people and obviously always a lot of enthusiasm at the show here. Thanks so much. Alright, so your team has been super busy. I've talked with a lot of them leading up to the show. >> That's right. >> Anybody that knows any show of this kind of magnitude know we're usually pretty exhausted before we get on planes and change all the time zones. So, you know, thank you for holding strong. Give us a little bit about, you know, when we talk marketing, you have a big annual report that came out recently from 2018. Give us some of the highlights of some of the things you've been seeing. >> Yeah, sure. Like you mentioned, you're seeing all the excitement and buzz here so this is our largest open-source developer conference, when compared to the last year we did in Copenhagen. So we have close to 8,000 attendees so we're really excited about that. And you're absolutely right, with that comes, we're so exhausted, but we really appreciate. I think the reason the conference has been so successful is primarily just because of the community engagement, which I highlight in the annual report. So it's a combination of our community, which is the developers, the contributors, also our end users, and the third significant portion of our ecosystem is our members. So we recently just announced that CNCF has crossed over 400 members, our end user community is growing, I think Sheryl mentioned this morning in the keynote, we have about 81 end users and this is phenomenal because end of the day, end users are companies who are not commercializing Cloud Native, but essentially they're using these products or technologies internally, so they are essentially the guinea pig of Cloud Native technologies and it's really important to learn from them. >> Well Dee, and actually it's interesting, you know, celebrating the five years of Kubernetes here, I happened to talk to a couple of the OG's of the community, Joe Beta, Tim Hawkin and Gabe Monroy. And I made a comment to Joe, and I'm like, "Well Google started it, but they brought in the Ecosync and pulled in a lot of other vendors too, it's people. And Gabe said, he's like "yeah, I started Deis and I was one of the people >> Absolutely. >> that joined in." So, we said this community is, it's people more than it's just the collection of the logos on the slides. >> Absolutely, I completely agree. And the other thing I also want to point out is a neutral home, like CNCF, it definitely increases contributions. And the reason I say that is, having a neutral home helps the community in terms of engaging and what is really interesting again, going back to the annual report is Google had a leadership role and most of the contributors were from Google, and now with having a neutral home, I think Google has done a phenomenal job to make sure that the contributors are not just limited to Google. And we're seeing all the other companies participating. We're also seeing a new little graph of independent contributors, who are essentially not associated with any companies and they've been again, very active with their comments or their engagement with overall, in terms of, not just limiting to Kubernetes, but all the other CNCF projects. >> So, this is sort of a situation of being a victim of your own success to some extent, but I've mentioned a couple of times today with various other guests, that this could almost be called a conference about Kubernetes and friends, where it feels like that single project casts an awfully long shadow, when you talk to someone who's vaguely familiar with the CNCF, it's "Oh you mean the Kubernetes people?" "Cool, we're on the same page." How do you, I guess from a marketing perspective begin to move out from under that shadow and become something that is more than a single project foundation? >> Yeah, that's a great question, and the way we are doing that is, I think, Kubernetes has become an economic powerhouse essentially, and what it has done is, it's allowed for other start-ups and other companies to come in and start creating new projects and technologies built around Kubernetes, so essentially, now, you're no longer talking about one single project. It's no longer limited to containers or orchestration, or just micro-services, which was the conversation 3 years ago at KubeCon, and today, what you will see is, it's about talking about the ecosystem. So, the way, from a marketing perspective, and it's actually the reality as well, is Kubernetes has now led to other growing projects, it's actually helped other developers come onboard, so now we are seeing a lot more co-ord, a lot more contributions, and now, CNCF has actually become a home to 35+ projects. So when it was founded, we had about 4 projects, and now it's just grown significantly and I think Kubernetes was the anchor tannin, but now we're just talking about the ecosystem as a whole. >> Dee, I'm wondering if it might be too early for this, but do you have a way of measuring success if I'm someone that has rolled out Kubernetes and some of the associated projects? When I talked to the early Kubernetes people, it's like, Kubernetes itself is just an enabler, and it's what we can do with it and all the pieces that go with it, so I don't know that there's spectrums of how are we doing on digital transformation, and it's a little early to say that there's a trillion dollars of benefit from this environm... but, do you have any measure today, or thoughts as to how we can measure the success of everything that comes out of the... >> Yeah, so I think there was Redmont, they published a report last year and it looks like they're in the process of updating, but it is just phenomenal to see, just based on their report, over 50% of fortune 100 companies have started to use Kubernetes in production, and then I would say, more than, I think, to be accurate, 71% of fortune 100 companies are using containers, so I think, right there is a big step forward. Also, if you look at it last year, Kubernetes was the first project to graduate, so one of the ways we also measure, in terms of the success of these projects, is the status that we have within CNCF, and that is completely community driven, so we have a project that's very early stage, it comes in as a sandbox, and then just based on the community growth, it moves onto the next stage, which is incubating, and then, it takes a big deal to graduate, and to actually go to graduation, so we often refer to those stages of the projects to Jeffery Moore, in terms of crossing the chasm. We've talked about that a lot. And again, to answer your question, in terms of how exactly you measure success is just not limited to Kubernetes. We had, this year, a few other projects graduates, we have 6 projects that have graduated within CNCF. >> How do you envision this unfolding in the next 5 years, where you continue to accept projects into the foundation? At some point, you wind up with what will only be described as a sarcastic number of logos on a slide for all of the included projects. How do you effectively get there without having the Cheesecake Factory menu problem of... the short answer is just 'yes', rather than being able to list them off coz no one can hold it all in their head anymore? >> Great question, we're still working on it. We do have a trail map that is a representation of 'where do I get started?', so it's definitely not prescriptive, but it kind of talks about the 10 steps, and it not only talks about it from a technology perspective, but it also talks about processes and people, so we do cover the DevOp, CICD cycle or pipeline. The other thing I would say is, again, we are trying to find other creative ways to move past the logos and landscape, and you're absolutely right, it's now becoming a challenge, but, you know, our members with 400+ members within CNCF. The other way to actually look at it is, back to my earlier point on ecosystems. So one of the areas that we are looking at is, 'okay, now, what next after orchestration?', which is all about Kubernetes is, now I think there's a lot of talks around security, so we're going to be looking at use cases, and also Cloud Native storage is becoming another big theme, so I would say we now have to start thinking more about solutions, solution, the terminology has always existed in the enterprise world for a long time, but it's really interesting to see that come alive on the Cloud Native site. So now we are talking about Kubernetes and then a bunch of other projects. And so now, it's like that whole journey from start to finish, what are the things that I need to be looking at and then, I think we are doing our best with CNCF, which is still a part of a playbook that we're looking to write in terms of how these projects work well together, what are some common use cases or challenges that these projects together can solve. >> So, Dee, we're here at the European show, you think back a few years ago it was a public cloud, there was very much adoption in North America, and starting to proliferate throughout the world. Alibaba is doing well in China and everything. CNCF now does 3 shows a year, you do North America, you do Europe and we've got the one coming up in China. We actually did a segment from our studio previewing the OpenStack Summit, and KubeCon show there, so maybe focus a little bit about Europe. Is there anything about this community and this environment that maybe might surprise people from your annual data? >> Yes, so if you look at... we have a tool called DevStart, it's open source, anyone can look at it, it's very simple to use, and based on that, we kind of monitor, what are the other countries that are active or, not just in terms of consuming, but who are actually contributing. So if you look at it, China is number 2, and therefore our strategy is to have a KubeCon in China. And then from a Euro perspective, I think the third leading country in terms of contributions would be Europe, and therefore, we have strategically figured out where do we want to host our KubeCon, and in terms of our overall strategy, we're pretty much anchoring to those 3 regions, which is North America, Europe as well as China. And, the other thing that we are also looking at is, we want to expand our growth in Europe as well, and now we have seen the excitement here at our KubeCon Barcelona, so we are looking to offer some new programs, or, I would say, new event types outside of KubeCon. Kind of you want to look at it as mini KubeCons, and so those would explore more in terms of different cities in Europe, different cities in other emerging markets as well. So that's still in the works. We're really excited to have, I would say 2 new event types that we're exploring, to really get the community to run and drive these events forward as well, outside of their participation in KubeCon because, oftentimes, I hear that a developer would love to be here, but due to other commitments, or, their not able to travel to Europe, so we really want to bring these events local to where they are, so that's essentially a plan for the next 5 years. >> It's fascinating hearing you describe this, because, everything you're saying aligns perfectly with what you'd expect from a typical company looking to wind up, building adoption, building footprints etc., Only, you're a foundation. Your fundamental goal at the end of it is user engagement, of people continuing to participate in the community, it doesn't turn into a 'and now, buy stuff', the only thing you have for sale here that I've noticed is a T-shirt, there's no... Okay, you also have other swag as well, not the important part of the story, I'm curious though, as far as, as you wind up putting all of this together, you have a corporate background yourself, was that a difficult transition to navigate, as far as, getting away from getting people to put money in towards something in the traditional sense, and more towards getting involved in a larger ecosystem and community. >> That was a big transition for me, just having worked on the classic B2B commercial software side, which is my background, and coming in here, I was just blown away with how people are volunteering their time and this is not where they're getting compensated for their time, it's purely based on passion, motivation and, when I've talked to some key community organizers or leaders who have done this for a while, one of the things that has had an impact on me is just the strong core values that the communities exhibit, and I think it's just based on that, the way they take a project and then they form a working group, and then there are special interest groups that get formed, and there is a whole process, actually, under the hood that takes a project from where Kubernetes was a few years ago, and where it is today, and I think it's just amazing to see that it's no longer corporate driven, but it's more how communities have come together, and it's also a great way to be here. Oftentimes... gone are the days where you try to set up a meeting, people look forward to being at KubeCon and this is where we actually get to meet face-to-face, so it's truly becoming a networking event as well, and to build these strong relationships. >> It goes even beyond just users, I mean, calling this a user conference would not... it would be doing it a bit of disservice. You have an expo hall full of companies that are more or less, in some cases, sworn enemies from one another, all coexisting peacefully, I have seen no fist-fights in the 2 days that we've been here, and it's fascinating watching a community effort get corporate decision makers and stakeholders involved in this, and it seems that everyone we've spoken to has been having a good time, everyone has been friendly, there's not that thousand yard stare where people are depressed that you see in so many other events, it's just something I've never experienced before. >> You know, that's a really amazing thing that I'm experiencing as well. And also, when we do these talks, we really make it a point to make sure that it's not a vendor pitch, and I'm not being the cop from CNCF policing everyone, and trying to tell them that, 'hey, you can't have a vendor pitch', but what I'm finding is, even vendors, just did a silverless talk with AWS, and he's a great speaker, and when he and I were working on the content, he in fact was, "you know, you're putting on that hat", and he's like, "I don't want to talk about AWS, I really want to make sure that we talk about the underlying technology, focusing on the projects, and then we can always build on top, the commercial aspect of it, and that's the job for the vendor. So, I think it's really great collaboration to see how even vendors put on the hat of saying, 'I'm not here to represent my products, or my thing', and of course they're here to source leads and stuff, but at the end of the day, the underlying common protocol that's already just established without having explicit guidelines saying, 'this is what you need to be following or doing', it's just like an implicit understanding. Everyone is here to promote the community, to work with the community, and again, I think I really want to emphasize on the point that people are very welcoming to this concept of a neutral home, and that really had helped with this implicit understanding of the communities knowing that it's not about a vendor pitch and you really want to think about a project or a technology and how to really use that project, and what are the use cases. >> It's very clear, that message has resonated well. >> Dee, thank you. We've covered a lot of ground, we want to give you the final word, anything else? We've covered the event, we've covered potential little things and the annual report. Any last words you have for us that you want people to take away? >> Not really, I think, like I said, it's the community that's doing the great work. CNCF has been the enabler to bring these communities together. We're also looking at creating a project journey it terms of how these projects come into CNCF, and how CNCF works with the communities, and how the project kind of goes through different stages. Yeah, so there are a lot of great things to come, and looking forward to it. >> Alright, well, Dee, thank you so much for all of the updates, and a big thank you, actually, to the whole CNCF team for all they've done to put this together. We really appreciate the partnership here. For Corey Quinn, I'm Stu Miniman. Back to wrap 2 days, live coverage, here at KubeCon, Cloud Native Con 2019, Thanks for watching the Cube. >> Thank you.

>> Live, from Barcelona, Spain, it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon CloudNativeCon Europe 2019. Brought to you by Red Hat, the CloudNative computing foundation and ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE here in Barcelona, Spain. It's KubeCon CloudNativeCon 2019, I'm Stu Miniman, and my cohost for two days wall-to-wall coverage is Corey Quinn. And we're always thrilled when we get to speak to a user, and not just any user but Fernando Alvarez, who is a cloud architect at X by Orange. Fernando, muchas gracias for joining us, Sir. >> It's a pleasure. >> So Orange, we are familiar and many people are. X by Orange though, maybe you could explain to our audience a little bit what this group is, inside of a large global brand. >> X by Orange is a subsidiary from Orange Spain, and from a Orange telecom group in France, and what we try to do is to reinvent the way that telco companies operates. Going more natural of a way than the traditional way. So it's more or less what we're trying to do, and we started operations in September of last year, just with a different proposal, to see if it could make it viable for the small and medium businesses in Spain. >> Yeah, so digital transformation, you know, many people talk about it, but I've had some really good conversations with customers in the last year or so. Data is so important to businesses these days. Being data-driven, and being software at the core of what you do. So, it's sometimes overstated that every company will be a software company some time in the future. But you have done these transformations before, and that's what brought you into X by Orange. So, tell us a little a bit, your role as a cloud architect, what's your mission and what's your role in the org? >> Well, my mission is to make all the different pieces inside the whole IT stack to work together, especially in a cloud environment. So from the designing from the whole ecosystem that supports the platform, and at the same time supports the whole company as a tech operator, or multiple tech operators. What my role is to make sure that everything fits together. We're trying to accomplish it and we're very happy to have it in a cloud environment, in public cloud and using Kubernetes, as our continuing orchestration engine. >> So, can you lay out are you in one public cloud? Many public clouds, data centers? What is your-- >> We are now in one public cloud in AWS but having this cloud orchestration layer allows us to move to, or to go multicloud or hybrid cloud as soon as we want to do it. But I think that we have to keep it simple from the beginning. Having a tight schedule to start operations is key to (stuttering) have our value proposal into the market and to do so we have to do it in a simple way so going first in one public cloud, going public cloud first because it's not a logical movement in a big company even though we are in Spain now but normally, big enterprises want to do in their own way in a private data center so what we want is to be very fast and to do so the election is clearly logical to go public cloud and to have an orchestration engine like Kubernetes to do everything, no? >> Do you find that making decisions that enable portability in the future if you want to move to alternate clouds or go hybrid, is in any way constraining what you're able to do or the speed you're able to innovate with? >> Yeah, but I think benefits are way better than the drawbacks of that. Normally every single decision you have to make about the architecture of NEPs, one of the key aspects is to see if it involves vendor blocking for any of the components on the stack for example in the public cloud. But I think it's worth the effort because most things that you can design as an engineer or as an architect can be solved not only using (stuttering) A specific solution from a specific cloud provider but using a more generic way. In this way then you can assure that you can move more or less easier to other cloud or to other infrastructure. >> All right, so I guess it begs the question, you said it's AWS today and Kubernetes, it's OpenShift yes? >> Yes. >> That is the, the Kubernetes platform? How did you come about choosing that and you know, obviously Red Hat, one of their strengths is working in lots of different environments so as you go to that hybrided multicloud was that the driver for them? Or were you a Red Hat customer? How did you end up with OpenShift? >> Yeah, that was one of the drivers. And the other was the support for the platform. We were in a really tight schedule and we knew Kubernetes well enough but we weren't sure if our knowledge were enough to be in operations in only nine months. So for that we get Red Hat on board, to have all their knowledge in terms of support and the professional services to help us to define how to do things with their platform on OpenShift and because OpenShift is like Kubernetes distribution we were sure enough that we share the Kubernetes way of doing things so that for us was a logical election. >> What was it that drove your move to the public cloud in the first place? And I guess your entire digital transformation by extension? >> Did you say what, sorry? >> What drove your entire decision to first go to the public cloud and secondly, to go I guess as part of your larger digital transformation? >> The main reason probably was the speed. At the beginning the whole company was started thinking that we were going to build our platform on a private cloud, but once we made the numbers and see that that needed one more year to start operations, with zero value to the customer, the decision was pretty easy. Let's go public cloud and let's think about this, if it really adds value in the future. >> All right. So Fernando if I heard you right you said nine months from you know, >> Yeah. >> when you went to deployment. Big companies aren't necessarily known for their speed of change. >> (laughing) Yeah. >> Talk a little bit about the organizational dynamics. How much internal ramp up there was versus relying on your partners and your vendors to be able to help you meet those schedules. >> The good news is that we had the full Orange support to start a new company and we started as a separate company recently because we wanted to be very fast. So instead of having all the processes from the big company to do something that maybe it will fail, or maybe it will affect the brand, we decided to start a new company from scratch, with Orange in its name because we have all the (stuttering) well-known, All the brand is well-known in the world, but at the same time we wanted to start from scratch. That's why we started with a little people, with most of them were coming from, some were industry instead of the telco industry and we started to build from scratch the whole company and that we were 20 in February 2018 and now we are more than 200 and we started operations in nine months from January 2018. So I think it was a really completely success in terms of speed. >> If you were going to do it all again starting over, what would you do differently? >> That's a really good question. Probably I will put even more effort in transmitting the right culture because when you grow a lot you have to be very carefully in transmitting the right culture to the new commerce. Because it's very easy to let dissipate the culture that you create at the beginning when you are only 10 or 20 people and it's very difficult to maintain it when you are 200. And then if you are 200 with a wrong culture you are transforming yourself in a big company with a small revenue so, that's something that needs to be taken into account. >> Okay, so what's the road map from here? Does the 200 then help infuse into the rest of the company? How do things work going forward? >> Well, what are we doing now is to, we build up a completely new IT stack, that was from the beginning multi tenant to host multiple telco operators and now we are hosting our second telco operator. That's Orange Spain branch for small and medium enterprises, that is now coming to our stack, so this is in our run up for this year, what we are doing is integrating all the stack from Orange Spain to the new one. And at the same time, trying to complete our portfolio with new products. And these new products could be managed and commercialized by X by Orange as a telco provider and also by Orange Spain as another telco provider. >> Right. When people look this show there are so many projects going on and so many different pieces. We sometimes hear "There's a lot of choices, how do I make them?" How did X by Orange, how did you figure out what pieces of the stack was Red Hat, mostly prescriptive as to how you do, or were you choosing the service mesh and all the other various pieces and what can you tell us about your stack? >> Well what I can tell you is that we put a lot of effort on designing the stack by ourselves, not having any turnkey solutions, because we think that this is key for the success of the company. Because normally telco operators put a lot of effort in their core network but they don't put so much effort in the software technology, but now things are changing a lot and we really think that the software layer is as much as important as it was the network. And here is the real perceived value from the customer now resides in the software pack, so we designed each part individually and we selected the right partners for starting the development of each part and then make altogether to work. Instead of going of a full stack provided by a unique company. >> Perfect. As you've gone down this path have you started to look down the serverless environment at all? Or are you strictly in a more container based approach? Let me broaden that a bit. Are you looking into functions as a service and other serverless technologies? Or are you mostly keeping it to more commonplace things that are half a step back? >> Well, in telco industry what is traditionally the vendor, the traditional vendor for the telco industry are the network vendors that are more in their way of virtualization instead of their continuation on not even to mention the deploying serverless. So we are putting a lot of effort on making them to understand and some of them they are understanding it really, really well, that it's key to have their products be able to make an extreme automation. So it's a pity that we don't have enough time (stuttering) to use technologies like serverless. We use them for little operations in our internal stack but we are not at the point of using it in products that we have because what we are doing is trying to, for example, to move the management part of the network services to the containers and now our efforts are in that place. >> And to be very clear, that's absolutely the right answer. You have to meet your customers where they are with things that are appropriate fits for the problems that they have. And average gating for a technology stack because, oh, it seemed like the right answer when I polled a bunch of people on stack overflow or something, is never the right answer to solve those problems, unless "How do I make people "on stack overflow happy?" is the question. Spoiler, you can't. >> Yeah, that's completely true, yeah. >> So Fernando one last question I had for you is here at a big show, what are you looking to get out of the show? What excited you to bring you to the event? And any other things around your experience so far, what you're hoping to do that you could share? >> I think that the most important thing when we're talking about the internal structural transformation for any sized company is the people and the mentality of the people. So I can never say enough times that we really need to invest time with people to embrace the change, to embrace the kind of culture that is behind... The CloudNative mentality because if not, if we don't do so, what we are doing is just transporting our old stack to a new technology without changing anything. So put in that effort, talk with people, make this change happen together with people that is working already in big companies is key for the success of any story. >> All right, well Fernando Alvarez, really appreciate you sharing your story. Congratulations on the progress so far. >> Thank you very much. >> And best of luck in the future. >> Thank you. >> All right. For Corey Quinn, I'm Stu Miniman. We'll be back with lots more. Thank you for watching theCUBE. (upbeat techno music)

>> Live from Barcelona Spain it's theCUBE covering KubeCon CloudNativeCon Europe 2019. Brought to you by Red Hat. >> Live from Barcelona Spain it's theCUBE covering KubeCon CloudNativeCon Europe 2019. Brought to you by Red Hat. the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and ecosystem partners. >> Hola Barcelona I'm Stu Miniman and my guest host for this week is the one and only Corey Quinn, and you're watching theCUBE the leader in live tech coverage, actually the fourth year we've been doing the KubeCon and CloudNativeCon. This is KubeCon CloudNativeCon Barcelona 2019. We've got two days of wall to wall live coverage. Last year we were in Copenhagen it was outside a little bit windy and we had this lovely silk above us. This time we are inside at the Fira. We've got some lovely Cube branding. The store with all the t-shirts and the little plushies of Fippy and all the animals are right down the row for us, and there is 7,700 people here. So I have been, I did the Austin show in 2017 did the Seattle show last year 2018. We had done the Portland show in 2016, so it's my third time doing one of these, but Corey it is your first time at one of these shows. Wait this isn't an AWF show, so what are you doing here? >> I'm still trying to figure that out myself when people invite me to go somewhere "Do you know anything about insert topic here?" absolutely, smile and bluff your way through. Eventually someone might call you on it, but that's tomorrow's problem not quite today's. >> Yeah I have this general rule of thumb the less I know about something the more I overdress to overcompensate it. Oh so here's the guy in the three piece suit. >> My primary skill is wearing a suit everything else is just edging details. >> Alright, so let's set the stage for our audience here Corey. As I've said we've got the Foundation, we've got a lot of the big members, we've got some of the project people, but I'm really excited we actually have some excellent users here, because it is five years now since Kubernetes came onto the scene of course built off of Borg from Google, and as Dan Conn said in the opening key note, he actually gave a nice historical lesson. The term he used is simultaneous invention and basically those things that, you know, there are times where we argue, who created the light bulb first, or who did this and this? Because there were multiple times out there and he said look there were more than a dozen projects out there. >> Many of them open source or a little bit open as to these things like container orchestration, but it is Kubernetes that is the defacto standard today, and it's why so many people show up for this show, >> and there's such a large ecosystem around it. So you live in the Cloud world you know what's your general view on CloudNative and Kubernetes and this whole kind of space? >> Well going back to something you said a minute or two ago. I think there's something very strong to be said about this being defined by it's users. I've never yet seen a successful paradigm takeoff in the world of technology that was vendor defined. It's at some point you wind up with these companies doing the digital equivalent of here we've crafted you this amazingly precise wrench, and you hand it to a user and the first thing they say is wow it's kind of a crappy hammer, but it's at least good for a first attempt. Tools are going to be used as users want to use them and they define what the patterns look like. >> Yeah so I'll give you the counter point there because we understand if we ask users what they wanted they wanted better buggy whips so we can go faster. To compare and contrast we had done a few years ago was this openstack was user driven and it came out of NASA, and if it was good enough for the rocket scientist, it should be something we that can learn on, and Rackspace had done good and gave it to the open source community, and stepped back and let people use it. First of all openstack it's not dead it's being used in the Telco world it's being used outside of North America quite a bit, but we saw the kind of boom and bust of that. >> We are a long way passed the heyday. >> The vendor ecosystem of openstack was oh it's an alternative to AWS, and maybe some way to get off the VMY licensing, and I've actually said it's funny if you listen to what happens in this ecosystem. Well, giving people the flexibility not to be totally locked in to AWS, and oh it's built on Linux and therefore I might not want to have licensing from certain vendors. Still echos from previously but it is very different. >> Very much so, and I will say the world has changed. >> I was very involved in Eucalyptus which was a bit of a different take on the idea, or the promise of what openstack was going to be What if you had Cloud API's in your own data center in 2012 that seemed like a viable concern. The world we live in today of public cloud first for a lot of shops was by no means assured. >> Yeah, Martin Meikos, Cube alum by the way, fantastic leader still heavily involved in open source. >> Very much so >> One of those things I think he was a little bit ahead of his time on these. So Corey, one of the reasons, why are you here? You are here because I pulled you here, and we do pay you to be here as a host. You're not here for goodwill and that. Your customers are all users and tend to be decent sized users and they say Corey helps people with their Amazon bills no that's the AWS bills not the I have a pile of boxes of smiley faces on there, oh my God what did I do around Christmas time. >> Exactly >> So the discussion at the show is this whole hybrid and multi cloud world when I talk to users they don't use those words. Cloud strategy, sure, my pile of applications, and how I'm updating some of them, and keeping some of them running, and working with that application portfolio and my data. All hugely important but what do you hear from users, and where does the things like cloud and multi cloud fit into their world? >> There are two basic archetypes of user that I tend to deal with. Because I deal with, as you mentioned, with predominately large customers >> you have the born in the cloud types who have more or less a single application. Picture a startup that hits meteoric growth and now is approaching or is in the IPO stage. They have a single application. They're generally all in on one provider, and the idea of going multi cloud is for auxiliary things. If we take a step back, for example, they're saying things like oh PagerDuty is a service that's not run by one of our major public cloud providers. There are a bunch of SaaS applications like that that factor in, but their infrastructure is >> predominately going to be based in one environment. The other large type of customer you'll tend to see is one of those multinational very divisional organizations where they have a long legacy of being very data center first because historically that was kind of the only option. And you'll start to see a bunch of different popup cloud providers inside those environments, but usually they stop at the line of business boundary or very occasionally on a per workload basis. I'm not seeing people say, >> well we're going to build this one application workload, and we want to be able to put that on Oracle cloud, and Azure and GCP and AWS, and this thing that my cousin runs out of the Ozarks. No one wants to do that in the traditional sense because as soon as you go down that path you are constrained to whatever the lowest common denominator across all those things are, and my cousins data center in the Ozarks doesn't have a lot of frills. So you wind up trying to be able to deploy anywhere, but by doing that you are giving up any higher level offering. You are slowing yourself down. >> Yeah, the thing we've always been worried about is back in the day when you talk about multi vendor do we go by the standard, and then go to least common denominator and what has worked it's way through the environment? That's what the customers want. I want today if I'm the user, agility is really one of the things that seem to be top of mind. What IT needs to do is respond to the speed of what the business needs and a CloudNative environment that I look at is it has to be that lever to be able to help me deliver on the next thing, or change the thing, or update my thing to get that working. It was, so disclaimer Red Hat is our headline sponsor here we thank them for our presence, but actually it's a great conversation with open shift customers, and they didn't talk about open shift to open shift to open shift. They talk about their digital transformation. They talk about their data. They talk about the cool new things that they are able to do, and it was that platform happened to be built on Kubernetes. That was the lever to help them do this at the Google show where you were at. That was the same conversation we had whether it is in GCP or whether it was in my own data center. >> You know yes we can do it with containers and everything like that. It was that lever to be able to help me modernize and run new apps and do it faster than I would've done it in the past. So it's that kind of progression that is interesting for me to hear, and just there is not, there is this tendency now to be like oh look everybody is working together and it's wonderful open source ecosystem. It's like well look the world today is definitely coopetition. Yes you need to be up on stage and if a customer says, I need to work with vendors A, B, C, and D. A, B, C, and D, you better work with that or they will go and find an alternative, because there are alternatives out there. >> (Corey) Absolutely, and when a company embarks on a digital transformation and starts moving into public cloud, there are two reasons they are doing that. The first is for cost savings in which case (laughs), let's talk, and the other is for capability storing, and you're not going to realize cost savings for a lot longer than you think you will. In any case you are not going realize capability story if all you view public cloud is being, is another place to run your VAMS or now your containers. >> Yeah, so thank you, Corey your title in your day job You're a Cloud economist. >> I am, two words that no one can define. So no one calls me on it. >> Kubernetes it's magical and free right >> That's what everyone tells me. It feels like right now we are sort of peak heighth as far as Kubernetes goes, and increasingly, whenever you see a technology that has gotten this level of adoption. We saw it with openstack, we've seen it with cloud, we've seen it with a bunch of things. We are starting to see it with Serverless as well. Where, what problem are you trying to solve? I'm not going to listen to the answer, today that answer is Kubernetes, and it seems like everyone's first project is their own resume. Great, there has to be a value proposition, there has to be a story for it, >> and I'm not suggesting that there isn't, but I think that it is being used as sort of an upscale snake oil in some cases or serpen grease as we like to call it in some context. >> Yeah, and that's one of our jobs here is to help extract the sigma from the noise. We've got some good customers. We're going into the environment. One of the things I try to do in the open keynote is find that theme. Couple of years, for a couple of shows >> it's been service mesh is the new hotness. We're talking about Istio, we're talking about Helm, We're talking about all these all these environments that say okay how do I pull together all the pieces of the application, >> and manage that together? Because there's just, you know, moving up the stack, and getting closer to that application. We'll talk about Serverless in one of the other segments later this week I'm sure because you know there's the, okay here Knative can help bridge that gap, but is that what I need? We talk a lot about Kubernetes is how much does the public cloud versus in my data center, and some of the guys they talk to, Serverless is in the public cloud. We'll call it functions of the service if you put it in your own data center, because while yes there are servers everywhere. If you actually manage those racks and everything like that it probably doesn't make sense to call it Serverless. We try not to get into too many semantics arguments here on theCUBE. >> You can generally tend to run arbitrary code anywhere the premise of Serverless to my mind. >> Is more about the event model, and you don't get that on VRAM in the same way that you do in a large public cloud provider, and whether that is the right thing or not, I'm not prepared to say, but it's important for that to be understood as you are going down that path. >> So Corey, any themes that jumped out for you, or things that you want to poke at, at the show, for me, Kubernetes has really kind of crossed that Chasm, and we do have large crowds. You can see the throngs of people behind us, and users that have great stories to tell, and CNCF itself, you know has a lot of projects out there, we're trying to make some sense of all those pieces. There's six now that have graduated, and FluentD is the most recent, but a lot of interesting things from the sandbox, through that kind of incubating phase there, and we're going to dig into some of the pieces there. Some of them build on top of Kubernetes, some of them are just part of this whole Cloud Native Ecosystem, and therefore related but don't necessarily need it, and can play in all these various worlds. >> What about you? >> For me I want to dig a little bit more into the idea of multi cloud. I have been making a bit of a stink for the past year. With the talk called the myth of multi cloud. Where it's not something I generally advise as a best practice, and I'm holding that fairly well, but what I want to do is I want to have conversations with people who are pursuing multi cloud strategies and figure out first, are they in fact pursuing the same thing, so we're defining out terms and talking on the same page, and secondly I want to get a little more context, and insight into why they are doing that, and what that looks like for them. Is it they want to be able to run different workloads in different places? Great that's fair, the same workload run everywhere, on the lowest common denominator. Well lets scratch below the surface a bit, and find out why that is. >> Yeah, and Corey you're spot on, and no surprise because you talk to users on this. From our research side on our team, we really say multi cloud or hybrid cloud. Hybrid cloud means you've got your own data centers, as opposed to multi cloud could be any of them. There's a little bit of a Venn Diagram you could do between that. >> But I am prepared to be wrong as well. I'm a company of two people. I don't have a research department, that's called the spare time I get >> when I can't sleep at night. So I don't have data, I have anecadata. I can talk about individual use cases, but then I'm telling individual company stories that I'm generally not authorized to tell. So it's more a question now of starting to speak to a broader base. >> So just to finish on the thought from out team is everything from I have all of these pieces, and they're really not connected, and I'm just trying to get my arms around through some of the solutions. Like in the AWS world we're looking at the VMware on AWS, and the outpost type of solution. That pullout or what Azure does with Azure stack, and the like, or even company like IBM and Oracle, where they have a stack that can be both >> in the public cloud and the private cloud. Those kind of fully integrated pieces versus the right now I'm just putting applications in certain areas, and then how do I manage data protection, how do I manage security across all these environments. It is a heterogeneous mess that we had, and I spent a lot of my career trying to help us break down those silos, get away from the cylinders of excellence as we called them, and we worked more traditionalist. So how much are we fighting that? I will just tell you that most of the people we're going to have on theCUBE, probably aren't going to want to get into that. They'll be happy to talk about their piece, and how they work with this broad wonderful ecosystem, but we can drill into where Kubernetes fits. We've got the five year anniversary of Kubernetes. We'll be talking to some of the people that helped create this technology, and lots of the various pieces. So with that, Corey, want to give you the final take here, before we talk about the stickers, and some of the rest. >> Oh absolutely, I think it's a fascinating show. I think that they're the right people who are attending. To give valuable perspective that, quite frankly, you're not going to get almost anywhere else. It's just a fascinating blend of people from large companies, small companies, giant vendors, and of course the middleware types, who are trying to effectively stand between in many cases, customers and the raw vendors, for a variety of very good reasons. Partner strategies are important. I'm very curious to see what that becomes, and how that tends to unfold in the next two days. >> Okay, so theCUBE by the way, we're not only a broadcast, but we are part of the community. We understand this network, and that is why Corey and I, you know, we come with stickers. So we've got these lovely sticker and partnership with Women Who Go, that made this logo for us for the Seattle show, and I have a few left, so if you come on by. Corey has his platypus, last week in AWS. So come on by where we are, you get some stickers, and of course, hit us up on Twitter if you have any questions. We're always looking for the community, and the network to help us with the data, and help us pull everything apart. So for Corey Quinn, I'm Stu Miniman, two days of live wall to wall coverage >> will continue very soon, and thank you as always for watching theCUBE. (Fading Electronic Music)

>> Live from Seattle, Washington it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Hey, welcome back everyone, it's theCUBE live here in Seattle for day three of three of wall-to-wall coverage. We've been analyzing here on theCUBE for three days, talking to all the experts, the CEOs, CTOs, developers, startups. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman, with theCUBE coverage of here at dock, not DockerCon, KubeCon and CloudNativeCon. Getting down to the last Con. >> So close, John, so close. >> Lot of Docker containers around here. We'll check it on the Kubernetes. Our next two guests got a startup, hot startup here. You got Norman Hsieh, head of business development, LogDNA. New compelling solution on Kubernetes give them a unique advantage, and of course, Daniel Berg who's distinguished engineer at IBM. They have a deal. We're going to talk about the startup and the deal with IBM. The highlights, kind of a new model, a new world's developing. Thanks for joining us. >> Yeah, no problem, thanks for having us. >> May get you on at DockerCon sometimes. (Daniel laughing) Get you DockerCon. The container certainly been great, talk about your product first. Let's get your company out there. What do you guys do? You got something new and different. Something needed. What's different about it? >> Yeah, so we started building this product. One thing we were trying to do is finding a login solution that was built for developers, especially around DevOps. We were running our own multi-tenant SaaS product at the time and we just couldn't find anything great. We tried open source Elastic and it turned out to be a lot to manage, there was a lot of configuration we had to do. We tried a bunch of the other products out there which were mostly built for log analysis, so you'd analyze logs, maybe a week or two after, and there was nothing just realtime that we wanted, and so we decided to build our own. We overcame a lot of challenges where we just felt that we could build something that was easier to use than what was out there today. Our philosophy is for developers in the terms of we want to make it as simple as possible. We don't want you to manage where you're going to think about how logs work today. And so, the whole idea, even you can go down to some of the integrations that we have, our Kubernetes integration's two lines. You essentially hit two QCTL lines, your entire cluster will get logged, directly logged in in seconds. That's something we show often times at demos as well. >> Norman, I wonder if you can drill in a little bit more for us. Always look at is a lot of times the new generation, they've got just new tools to play with and new things to do. What was different, what changes? Just the composability and what a small form factor. I would think that you could just change the order of magnitude in some of the pricing of some of these. Tell us why it's different. >> Yeah, I mean, I think there's, three major things was speed. So what we found was that there weren't a lot of solutions that were optimized really, really well for finding logs. There were a lot of log solutions out there, but we wanted to optimize that so we fine-tuned Elasticsearch. We do a lot of stuff around there to make that experience really pleasurable for our users. The other is scale. So we're noticing now is if you kind of expand on the world of back in the day we had single machines that people got logs off of, then you went to VMware where you're taking a single machine and splitting up to multiple different things, and now you have containers, and all of a sudden you have Kubernetes, you're talking about thousands and thousands of nodes running and large production service. How do you find logs in those things? And so we really wanted to build for that scale and that usability where, for Kubernetes, we'll automatically tag all your logs coming through. So you might get a single log line, but we'll tag it with all the meta-data you need to find exactly what you want. So if I want to, if my container dies and I no longer know that containers around, how am I going to get the logs off of that, well, you can go to LogDNA, find the container that you're looking for, know exactly where that error's coming from as well. >> So you're basically storing all this data, making it really easy for the integration piece. Where does the IBM relationship fit in? What's the partnership? What are you guys doing together? >> I don't know if Dan wants to-- >> Go ahead, go ahead. >> Yeah, so we're partnering with IBM. We are one of their major partners for login. So if you go into Observability tab under IMB Cloud and click on Login, login is there, you can start the login instance. What we've done is, IBM's brought us a great opportunity where we could take our product and help benefit their own customers and also IBM themselves with a lot of the login that we do. They saw that we are very simplistic way of thinking about logs and it was really geared towards when you think about IBM Cloud and the shift that they're moving towards, which is really developer-focused, it was a really, really good match for us. It brought us the visibility into the upmarket with larger customers and also gives us the ability to kind of deploy globally across IBM Cloud as well. >> I mean, IBMs got a great channel on the sales side too, and you guys got a great relationship. We've seen that playbook before where I think we've interviewed in all the other events with IBM. Startups can really, if they fit in with IBM, it's just massive, but what's the reason? Why the partnership? Explain. >> Well, I mean, first of all we were looking for a solution, a login solution, that fit really well with IKS, our Kubernetes service. And it's cloud-native, high scale, large number of cluster, that's what our customers are building. That's what we want to use internally as well. I mean, we were looking for a very robust cloud-native login service that we could use ourselves, and that's when we ran across these guys. What, about a year ago? >> Yeah, I mean, I think we kind of first got introduced at last year's KubeCon and then it went to Container World, and we just kept seeing each other. >> And we just kept on rolling with it so what we've done with that integration, what's nice about the integration, is it's directly in the catalog. So it's another service in the catalog, you go and select it, and provision it very easily. But what's really cool about it is we wanted to have that integration directly with the Kubernetes services as well, so there's the tab on the Integration tab on the Kubernetes, literally one button, two lines of code that you just have to execute, bam! All your logs are now streaming for the entire cluster with all the index and everything. It just makes it a really nice, rich experience to capture your logs. >> This is infrastructure as code, that's what the promise was. >> Absolutely, yes. >> You have very seamless integration and the backend just works. Now talk about the Kubernetes pieces. I think this is fascinating 'cause we've been pontificating and evaluating all the commentary here in theCUBE, and we've come to the conclusion that cloud's great, but there's other new platform-like things emerging. You got Edge and all these things, so there's a whole new set, new things are going to come up, and it's not going to be just called cloud, it's going to be something else. There's Edge, you got cameras, you got data, you got all kinds of stuff going on. Kubernetes seems to fit a lot of these emerging use cases. Where does the Kubernetes fit in? You say you built on Kubernetes, just why is that so important? Explain that one piece. >> Yeah, I mean, I think there's, Kubernetes obviously brought a lot of opportunities for us. The big differentiator for us was because we were built on Kubernetes from the get go, we made that decision a long time ago, we didn't realize we could actually deploy this package anywhere. It didn't have to be, we didn't have to just run as a multi-tenant SaaS product anymore and I think part of that is for IBM, their customers are actually running, when they're talking about an integrated login service, we're actually running on IBM Cloud, so their customers can be sure that the data doesn't actually move anywhere else. It's going to stay in IBM Cloud and-- >> This is really important and because they're on the Kubernetes service, it gives them the opportunity, running on Kubernetes, running automatic service, they're going to be able to put LogDNA in each of the major regions. So customer will be able to keep their logged data in the regions that they want it to stay. >> Great for compliance. >> Absolutely. >> I mean, compliance, dreams-- >> Got to have it. >> Especially with EU. >> How about search and discovery, that's fit in too? Just simple, what's your strategy on that? >> Yeah, so our strategy is if you look at a lot of the login solutions out there today, a lot of times they require you to learn complex query languages and things like that. And so the biggest thing we were hearing was like, man, onboarding is really hard because some of our developers don't look at logs on a daily basis. They look at it every two weeks. >> Jerry Chen from Greylock Ventures said machine learning is the new, ML is the new SQL. >> Yup. (Daniel laughing) >> To your point, this complex querying is going to be automated away. >> Yup. >> Yes. >> And you guys agree with that. >> Oh, yeah. >> You actually, >> Totally agree with that. >> you talked about it on our interview. >> Norman, wonder if you can bring us in a little bit of compliance and what discussions you're having with customers. Obviously GDPR, big discussion point we had. We've got new laws coming from California soon. So how important is this to your customers, and what's the reality kind of out there in your user base? >> Yeah, compliance was, our founders had run a lot of different businesses before. They had two major startups where they worked with eBay, compliance was the big thing, so we made a decision early on to say, hey, look, we're about 50 people right now, let's just do compliance now. I've been at startups where we go, let's just keep growing and growing and we'll worry about compliance later-- >> Yeah, bite you in the ass, big time. >> Yeah, we made a decision to say, hey, look, we're smaller, let's just implement all the processes and necessary needs, so. >> Well, the need's there too, that's two things, right? I mean, get it out early. Like security, build it up front and you got it in. >> Exactly. >> And remember earlier we were talking and I was telling you how within the Kubernetes service we like to use our own services to build expertise? It's the same thing here. Not only are they running on top of IKS, we're using LogDNA to manage the logs and everything, and cross the infrastructure for IKS as well. So we're heavily using it. >> This also highlights, Daniel, the ecosystem dynamic of having when you break down this monolithic type of environments and their sets of services, you benefit because you can tap into a startup, they can tap in to IBM's goodness. It's like somewhat simple Biz Dev deal other than the RevShare component of the sales, but technically, this is what customers want at the endgame is they want the right tool, the right job, the right product. If it comes from a startup, you guys don't have to build it. >> I mean, exactly. Let the experts do it, we'll integrate it. It's a great relationship. And the teams work really well together which is fantastic. >> What do you guys do with other startups? If a startup watches and says, hey, I want to be like LogDNA. I want to plug into IBM's Cloud. I want to be just like them and make all that cash. What do they got to do? What's the model? >> I mean, we're constantly looking at startups and new business opportunities obviously. We do this all the time. But it's got to be the right fit, alright? And that's important. It's got to be the right fit with the technology, it's got to be the right fit as far as culture, and team dynamics of not only my team but the startup's teams and how we're going to work together, and this is why it worked really great with LogDNA. I mean, everything, it just all fit, it all made sense, and it had a good business model behind that as well. So, yes, there's opportunities for others but we have to go through and explore all those. >> So, Norman, wonder if you can share, how's your experience been at the show here? We'd love to hear, you're going to have so many startups here. You got record-setting attendance for the show. What were your expectations coming in? What are the KPIs you're measuring with and how has it met what you thought you were going to get? >> No, it's great, I mean, previous to the last year's KubeCon we had not really done any events. We're a small company, we didn't want to spend the resources, but we came in last year and I think what was refreshing was people would talk to us and we're like, oh, yeah, we're not an open source technology, we're actually a log vendor and we can, and we'll-- (Stu laughing) So what we said was, hey, we'll brush that into an experience, and people were like, oh, wow, this is actually pretty refreshing. I'm not configuring my fluentd system, fluentd to tap into another Elasticsearch. There was just not a lot of that. I think this year expectation was we need the size doubled. We still wanted to get the message out there. We knew we were hot off the presses with the IMB public launch of our service on IBM Cloud. And I think we we're expecting a lot. I mean, we more than doubled what our lead count was and it's been an amazing conference. I mean, I think the energy that you get and the quality of folks that come by, it's like, yeah, everybody's running Kubernetes, they know what they're talking about, and it makes that conversation that much easier for us as well. >> Now you're CUBE alumni now too. It's the booth, look at that. (everyone laughing) Well, guys, thanks for coming on, sharing the insight. Good to see you again. Great commentary, again, having distinguished engineering, and these kinds of conversations really helps the community figure out kind of what's out there, so I appreciate that. And if everything's going to be on Kubernetes, then we should put theCUBE on Kubernetes. With these videos, we'll be on it, we'll be out there. >> Hey, yeah, absolutely, that'd be great. >> TheCUBE covers day three. Breaking it down here. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman. That's a wrap for us here in Seattle. Thanks for watching and look for us next year, 2019. That's a wrap for 2018, Stu, good job. Thanks for coming on, guys, really appreciate it. >> Thanks. >> Thank you. >> Thanks for watching, see you around. (futuristic instrumental music)

>> From Seattle, Washington, it's theCUBE covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon North America 2018 brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and it's ecosystem partners. >> Hello everyone, welcome back to theCUBE's coverage here. Day three of wall to wall coverage at KubeCon, CloudNativeCon 2018, here in Seattle, theCUBE's been breaking it down all week. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman. Our next guest is Tuan Nguyen who is the principal engineer in technical marketing, cloud products and solutions at Cisco Systems. Tuan, welcome to theCUBE. Thanks for joining us. >> Thanks for having me. Thank you. >> So obviously, cloud has been a big part of Cisco. We've seen at Cisco Live last year and Cisco Barcelona. >> Yeah. >> Got your big European event coming up, Cisco Live in Europe. >> Yes. >> Cloud has been a big part of the CEO's conversations on stage. >> Yes. >> Cisco's going all in on cloud, DevNet. >> Yeah. >> DevNet Create, two communities. You guys got a cloud native vibe going on in Cisco. >> Yeah, we do. >> Cloud centered. You got some products that are addressing this. >> Right. >> This is a, shift for Cisco, big time. >> Yeah. >> You've in the cloud, but this is like all. It feels like an all in. >> Right, right. Yeah, yeah, so what we've been evangelizing to people here is that Cisco is a software company, right? We certainly have a very strong heritage in our enterprise relationships related to our hardware platforms but we're transitioning and we're really making that conversion to being a software company. Cisco has been acquiring talent and technology in the past couple years. We've developed some strong relationships with Google and AWS as well and we developed these reference architectures that our customers can buy as kind of a single unit and get the support that they need from us. >> Yeah. >> So. >> We covered your recent announcement with AWS. >> Yes. >> Really nice, elegantly designed Kubernetes strategy where using EKS over here, you got the Cisco stuff on here so it's seamless experience for the customer which is great, congrats, I think that's a great announcement. I think it's directionally correct. I think that's what customers want. But I want to ask you a bigger question I want to get your opinion on, perspective. When you look at Kubernetes, what we're hearing here at the show from end users and from the emerging start ups that are contributing is that, breaking down the monolithic application into a series of granule sets of services is what everyone is doing. That's clearly, that microservices, a variety of other things, Kubernetes can connect that. But it's the network that brings it together. >> Right. >> So we're seeing the policy knobs inside Kubernetes as being a very strategic benefit. We had one expert say, "A lot of people "aren't taking advantage of those policy knobs. "This is a great opportunity." >> Right. >> You guys are, (laughing) as networked as you could be at Cisco. This is your DNA. >> Yeah. >> How are you guys looking at Kubernetes? Are you looking at the policy knobs? How do you talk to your customers about this new opportunity with Kubernetes? >> Yeah. >> What's the real up side-- >> Yeah. >> For your customers with Kubernetes? >> Yeah. So one, you mentioned, we see Kubernetes as very pervasive so we offer an on prem version of Kubernetes and of course, you know, we partner with Google and with AWS to deliver on cloud versions of Kubernetes and related to policies, application policies, in the form of Istio and network policies or security policies in the form of a network interface. Our on prem solution offers three types of CNIs. So we're very flexible in that way and certainly if you are a Cisco customer and you have a Cisco ecosystem of hardware platforms then we natively integrate into those platforms and we let you leverage your existing investments, yeah. >> So if I look at it that way, then I'm saying, okay, I'm good with Cisco right now. >> Yeah. >> Do I have to change anything with Kubernetes? What's the impact to me, as a Cisco customer? >> Yeah. >> Is this added value? Consistent environment? What's the impact to the customer's day to day, operational? (laughing) >> Sure, sure. Yeah. >> Environment? >> Yeah, so our customers are asking us to tie both VM based and container based workloads into CICD, so we obviously, with with our ACI/CNI we give them the capability to construct policies in Kubernetes that end up on the hardware platform, right? That's number one. Then we also have a hardware registry, we have security policies, that can be carried across different platforms, so in your private cloud and VMware and OpenStack, you can carry those same policies. For us, we've got application delivery, frameworks and platforms, that deliver the application in the form of both VM and container based as well as bare metal and we kind of unify the user experience, when it comes to application deployment in Kubernetes. >> Yeah, so Tuan, I'm actually glad that we got you towards the end of what we've been talking about here because one of the things we've been teasing apart is, multi clouds, in many ways, is like what we've been talking about a long time about multi vendor. >> Yeah. >> And the networking space is an area that we really understand. You know, what worked and what didn't work in a multi vendor world and the management piece was often the breaking point because just stitching all those together, we've looked for the last few years, customers have multi cloud and getting their arms around that and how do I manage that, can be a real challenge. >> Yeah, yeah. >> We know Cisco's making investments, they've made acquisitions. Tell us, what have we learned from the past? What's different about this now that will make it successful where management has been one of the pitfalls for quite a long time? >> Yeah, yeah. So I think what we've learned from the past is that customers are asking us for policies that can span across the multi cloud, right? So, whereas certain platforms will give you a hybrid cloud experience, Cisco is investing in things like VPN meshed apologies into CSR, in ASR, in protecting workloads as they move across different cloud targets. And then also in the provisioning and life cycle management. We feel that customers want the capability to run applications in any cloud environment and under any type of overlay or underlay networking platforms, yeah. >> Tuan, one of the things that you talk about not only getting your arms around it but there is multi axis's that I need to optimize for. One of the ones, of course, sorting out is cost. So, you know, where does Cisco sit in this environment? The big shift that I think was really highlighted for me last year, going to Cisco Live is, it used to be most of what I'm managing, I control. >> Right. >> Today, most of the network and most of the environments that I'm in charge of? They're outside of my purview. >> Right. >> With doing that multi cloud world. >> Right. >> So how I make sure that I don't, you know, get myself in trouble with the CFO? >> Right. >> Or have unexpected things come up? >> Right, right, yeah. I came through a software acquisition called CliQr Technologies and CliQr Technologies is that one tool that gives you that experience and allows you to see cloud cost. So cloud cost from a hourly, metered perspective but also from a budgeting perspective. And we're adding additional components into our platform that gives you like true cost for all of your compute, all of your network, your storage, your services like Lambda and then also makes recommendations on the instant sizes that you need to use. We have policies like suspension policies that help our customers to save on their cloud bill. In a lot of ways, the life cycle management aspect of applications is something that differentiates us from other cloud management platforms. >> Talk about the cost side and the cost of ownership. I've always been talking about the cloud as the TCO or total cost of ownership, changes a bit. What are some of the challenges that you've seen the customers having that you guys are helping with? When you look at integrating security, networking and application performance and management? Cause it's not siloed anymore. >> Yeah. >> They're integrating together. >> That's right. >> This is a new dynamic. >> Right, right. >> What's state of the art? What are you guys doing? You guys address that? What are some of the customer challenges? Just, what's your thoughts on that area? >> Yeah so most of the time there are two basic challenges to this. One is, you know bringing the cloud economy into the private cloud consumption is something that our platform does. And then also being able to visualize all the costs. Helping our customers to make good decisions about what types of workloads run where best and whether it's, so we enable, obviously, VMs as well as cloud native, container based, micro services to co-exist in a single platform so we'll deploy VMs and containers in a hybrid fashion. >> Yeah. >> Or we'll deploy them into the same and we'll give you the utilization of those workloads based on dollar amounts, based on run time and also based on the type of workload. >> So here's the curve ball question for you. Now multi cloud comes into the equation? >> Yeah. >> How do you guys deal with that because workload, in some cases, I've heard from customers that refactoring those workloads is a problem. >> Right. >> So if I'm going to run true multi cloud, I'm going to have multiple clouds, I need networks to know, have smarts, around where I want to put that and do I want it in different geography maybe or region? So the network has the intelligence on a lot of things. >> Right. >> How are you guys addressing the multi cloud component? >> Yeah, yeah. >> With workload? Without refactoring? >> Yeah. So because we can compose applications that consist of both VMs and containers, right? One of the projects, just one of the use cases that we worked on with our relationship with Google was to, from cloud center, to deploy cloud native workloads in GKE that would navigate and basically traverse the VPN network to go back into the on prem target in order to access a database that was kind of a legacy database using an API URL. So that whole workflow was something that we solved for with our reference architecture so, you know, we obviously have the portfolio of products that allows our customers to take advantage of both hardware, software and networking and security and monitoring all in one reference architecture. >> A lot of opportunities for you guys. I think you're positioned well. We've covered you guys on the DevNet, DevNet Create. >> Yeah. >> You're seeing the cloud center, this dashboard kind of model of looking at the operations side, the development side. A lot of changes. Really kind of fit right into your wheelhouse. >> Yes, yeah. >> I think the Kubernetes policy knobs, it's a big story that I'm walking away with on this trip and saying, wow, policy sounds like a networking thing. Networking guys love policy. >> Yeah. >> If you can automate it? >> Yeah, that's right. >> And managed the costs? >> Yeah. >> It's a good thing. >> Yeah. >> Thanks for coming on, appreciate your insight. >> Thank you, thank you very much. >> CUBE coverage here, day three continues. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman. Stay with us for wall to wall coverage here at KubeCon, CloudNativeCon. We'll be right back with more, after this short break. (upbeat techno music)

>> From Seattle, Washington, it's theCUBE covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud-Native computing foundation and its ecoystem partners. >> Everyone welcome back to theCUBE's exclusive coverage here live in Seattle for KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2018. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman, breaking down all the content and the analysis, opinion, getting all the data, sharing that with you, three days of wall-to-wall coverage, we're in day three winding down, great event. Our next guest is one of the stars of the show here, original Kubernetes, a pioneer, Joe Beda, also the Kube founder at Heptio, recently sold to VMware in acquisition. Startup only what, two years old? >> Yeah, about two years. >> About two years. Welcome back to theCUBE, great to see you. >> Thanks for having me. >> Google. Great work you've done with Craig and with pioneering Kubernetes, Heptio startup. >> Yep, yep. >> Got taken off the table as you were ramping up. Congratulations! >> Thank you so much! It's been a little bit of a wild ride, I can tell you that. >> So first question for you is, I don't want to get into the whole VMware thing, we're going to hit that up in VMworld next year. But as you look at the ecosystem of Kubernetes, I mean, you've got to be looking at this sayin, "Hey, we knew this was going to be big." You guys have been running it with Borg and where that came from in the DNA. The magic wand almost was kind of passed out. Hey, this happened! It's kind of happening in a big way. What's your reaction? How do you feel at an emotional level? What's the vibe going on in your mind right now? >> I mean, I look at this and it blows my mind. I think we knew that we had a possibility with Kubernetes to do something big, we could feel it. I don't think we ever expected this, to be honest. The thing, though, that I think surprises me, and it was both about building startup and building a company, but also seeing the community grow, is that every time you hire a new person to do a startup, every time you have somebody join the community and start contributing, it's like it's another cylinder in the engine. And it really starts taking it in directions that you had no idea it was going to to go into. And so, I look around here and this is a product of a community. This is not a product of any single company, any single set of folks. I mean, you start things snowballing and interesting things happen, but it really is a group effort. >> It's so hard to do a startup. You know, I've done a lot of startups. We've done a lot of interviews with startups. It's hard. You got to start a company, you got to do all that legal work, then you've got to get the momentum, and it's capped off by the validation, certainly by VMware, who announced heavily at the VMworld, Pat Gelsinger said that Kubernetes is the dial tone. (laughs) And I'm like, okay, I guess. We were talking earlier, it's the ethernet. I've called it the TCP/IP. So, all the analogies come to this enabling kind of capability. And that's where we see a lot of the value. Where do you see the opportunities for the ecosystem to innovate. I mean, getting some clear visibility around the stability. But now value is starting to get created. What's your thoughts on value creation? Where are some areas that are ripe? >> Yeah, well, I think a couple of things. I think we're at the point now where it's about how do we bring these technologies to new people, to new audiences, to folks who might not have heard about it, don't quite get it. How do we make this stuff more relevant to them? So we're moving out of this technology-focus phase, into this phase that's focused on solution and value that's delivered. And this isn't always about innovation and building on top. Some of it is about different ways to do it, and also just, you know, having these ideas just permeate, right? And as technologists, we build on incredibly complicated technology. We look at, say, something like AWS. If you were to approach that brand new without any idea of the history there, it would be incredibly intimidating. But it's been around long enough, it's grown organically, that everyone's like, "Oh yeah, I totally understand all that stuff." It just takes time sometimes for these technologies to become understood, to become part of the fabric of what people assume the technical skill set is. And I think that's a big part of what we're seeing starting to happen now, too. >> Joe, I want to get your viewpoint. When I think about the last ten, fifteen years, the whole discussion of hybrid cloud, multicloud, portability, even thinking about things from a VMware context, or from a cloud-computing context, it seems like we have a lot of false starts and false expectations about, you know, we've listed Pat Gelsinger and Andy Jassy and others who talk about the three laws of the cloud. We're not changing physics. And Kubernetes is super-important for multicloud, but portability was kind of thrown out there. I want to get you to help us tease out what it is, what it isn't, and how do you see multicloud today? >> Yeah, so I mean, first, on the topic of false starts, there's this popular narrative that, oh, it's going to be this, now this is the hot thing, now it's this. And the reality is that main frames are still around. Technologies don't disappear, it's an additive type of thing. So it's not like, say for example, Kubernetes or Serverless or machine learning, right? It's all of those things working together and I think, if you look at it in that way, it doesn't feel like a false start. It just seems like we're adding more different techniques, more technologies onto the pile. In terms of where I see this stuff going, I think multicloud and compatibility do go hand-in-hand. From the very start, we never wanted to pretend that Kubernetes was going to be this magic layer that was going to make differences between different environments disappear. What we did want to do, though, was actually find the commonalities and minimize the extra differences that didn't need to be there. And so a lot of times, when I talked to customers, I don't say, "Hey, don't use this special service in this cloud." I don't tell them that. What I do say, though, is, "If you are going to start using those things, "do it in an eyes-open type of way. "Understand the trade-offs, "understand why you're doing it" versus just willy-nilly adopting technologies cuz they look nice and shiny, and that's what you want to do, right? So I think, whether you're adopting Kubernetes, whether you're adopting a specific cloud technology, whether you're moving to cloud versus actually building automatable infrastructure on prem, make sure that you're thoughtful about how you enter those types of decisions. >> The way the feedback we hear from people here on theCUBE this week and other places as well, is, pick a problem to solve. Don't boil all of the ocean, get in there, use Kubernetes for what you think you can nail a problem on, iterate from there. That's the common theme. Now as you guys pivot over to VMware, they've been investing a lot in their strategy also with AWS, RDS is now on VMware, they'd look at Kubernetes as a great opportunity to bridge on-premises and cloud. So it's clear to see why they like it. Explain for the folks watching who are fans of you and Craig and Heptio, what's next for you guys? You joined VMware, you just closed the deal, you're principal engineer at VM where you're in the business unit side, share some of the specifics that you can on what's going to happen next. >> Yeah, I think it's too early for me to speak on sort of a grand strategy across VMware. I think I'm still mapping things out and understanding things. What I can talk about is the way that we were thinking about the market from Heptio's point of view. And every indication that I've seen that this is actually very, very compatible for VMware. A lot of the keynotes that you saw here at KubeCon Show, that adoption curve, where we're in the early phase versus the early majority, that type of thing, and I think there's some truth to that. But I also think that there's an axis to that, that actually isn't shown up there, around the different personas that you see adopt different technologies inside of the enterprise organization. And so the strength of somebody like VMware, and I think the early adopters for things like Kubernetes, are that operator persona. And we're seeing an evolution of that persona as it starts to come to grips with the world of the cloud. We're moving from a place where things are ticket-based, human intensive, to how do we move to API-driven, policy-drive types of things, right? And so that's obviously where the cloud is. But how do we take those learnings, how do we take those lessons and actually apply those things on problems? And so our goal from Heptio's point of view, and I think it's incredibly well-aligned with VMware, and an enormous opportunity, is taking the VMware-faithful, the folks who do go to VMworld, that have built careers on that solution, how do we help them move their career forward, move their positioning forward in a way that doesn't eliminate their jobs, but actually helps them be smart in a modern world where cloud is actually part of the landscape. >> We had Aparna on from Google, and you know Aparna from your Google days, and she was making a comment about these new personas, new opportunities, new jobs that are opening up based on Kube. Okay, great, we see some of that. And then we've done rift on the idea that Kubernetes also is a uplift for existing roles: system architect, Network Guy, Server Guy, and then the VMware operator that had been wearing virtual machines, this is a lift for them. Talk about what specifically is going to get them jazzed up, is it the policy knobs on Kubernetes, what's going to really appeal to people below Kubernetes and what's really going to appeal to the developers above Kubernetes? >> Well, for centralized IT within an organization, cloud has been a challenge, right? If, I'm not thinking of a specific customer, but it's not insane to think about something like a developer who wants to write an app, they have to file a ticket, it can take anywhere from two weeks to three months to get stuff provisioned, right? And they're sitting there twiddling their thumbs waiting to actually get that stuff ready. Meanwhile, they take their credit card, go to a cloud, get a machine up and running within 30 seconds, and get their app shipped. So while they're waiting on that ticket, they can get that app shipped, and then they dare their manager to deny the credit card charge when it comes due. That is a challenge for centralized IT which oftentimes has not had any competition. Now, all of a sudden, they find themselves in a situation where they're competing with cloud for the hearts and minds of their own customers, for their developers. And different organizations have reacted to this in different ways. Some of them had said, we're just going to explode out IT and actually say to different business units, "You own your own destiny." But, depending on the enterprise, depending on the goals, depending on their requirements around regulatory needs, around policy, around cost controls, around mobility of developer skills across the organization, that may or may not work for them. And so, for me, the bridge forward for that centralized IT, is really one of giving them the power tools so they can actually serve their customers better in a world where cloud exists. >> Yeah. Their jobs! That's their job to serve the business. >> Well, I mean, the bar has been raised, right? And so we want to help them meet that challenge. >> Awesome. >> Joe, I want to get your thoughts on this growing ecosystem. I said in our open this morning, we've been looking for the last five years or so. Where is that independent, cloud-computing show? And sitting here with 8 thousand people, and another 2 thousand people are in the hallways or on the wait list and things like that. It's here, and there's all of these projects into multiple communities come together. How does it feel that Kubernetes, was it kind of the first domino to help tip something broader with CloudNative? >> I mean it feels really good, to be honest. I think one of the things that we saw Heptio as, and I think VMware is actually in a great position also, is to be a neutral party that really is on the side of customers as they enter this complex world where they're dancing with elephants that are the big cloud providers. And I think that there is an enormous appetite for customers to actually have trusted partners in that world. Now, with respect to the conference, I think, what I love doing is I love being on the floor here, I love talking to people, I love going to the session tracks. That's where I think the heart of this conference is. Some of the contributor community days that happened on Monday that don't get a lot of coverage, the big headlines are one thing but there really is an undercurrent of community that's happening in this conference that is really something pretty special. >> I think that's a great point, and, at least what I've seen that's contributed, you know, the Envoy Group, tomorrow there's the Operators Group, this is not a monolithic community, it's not like, look, I've been at VMworld for years. It was about virtualization and primarily a single product from a single company and everything that wrapped around it. This is not a vendor doing it, there's all of these. I talked to the people that all they care about is Helm, we talked about all these different pieces, and many of them tie into what was going on at Kubernetes, but there's just so much diversity, and it's a common ground for everybody to work together. >> And I think, this is one of the things that I think has been interesting about the CNCF is that there is no, there is an idea that we want to create a set of projects that work well together, but there also is the realization that there is no one way to skin the cat, there is no one way to solve a problem. So there is room for projects to disagree, there's room for projects to experiment, there is room for folks to try and find their audience and be successful. >> That's the modern upgrade in my mind, to, not going against the open source ethos but also innovating with it, You're balancing commercial so you just, I think they've got to apply this upstream concept called CNCF where the downstream benefits for commercialization, you can still do the open source community thing while having an impact downstream to IT and just regular developers. This is the trend we see at Enterprise when we talk to the customers, we talk to other people, IT has been outsourced for decades. Now there has to be a competitive advantage, and we have the competition thing that you pointed out. And the smart CIO CX's are bringing developers in to create a competitive advantage, and it's a new reset. And, not throwing away networks, they're not throwing away compute and storage. They're going to change it. And I think this is where the real tailwind is. Do you agree with that or what's your thoughts? >> The way I like to think about it is that, and I'm using company names here as an example, but I think there is this race between Tesla learning how to become a car company versus, say, Ford or GM learning how to become a software company, right? And that dynamic is playing itself out across every single industry. And I think there is not a CEO or CIO or board out there that doesn't realize that the way for us to be relevant in the future is to turn software into, not just a cost-center and something we deal with, but something that becomes a fundamental advantage and driver of our business. >> Every industry: media, software! We're a software company that happens to do media, with theCUBE. You're totally right, it's just like-- >> Any industry. This is why Amazon's getting into grocery stores. >> It's integration. This is a completely new horizontal dynamic with a little bit of special machine learning at the outlay. >> We're moving into a software-defined world, for sure. >> Joe, been great to have your commentary here on theCUBE. Thanks for sharing. Congratulations on the acquisition. Super outcome, the numbers floating out there. It's pretty large, good deal. We have no comment. (laughs) >> Open source! >> Read DCSE C file. >> Open source business models are changing, but the value is still the same. Those who create the value can extract it. That's the ethos of open source, of course theCUBE as well. Thanks for watching. Stay with us for more coverage after this short break.