>> From around the globe. It's theCube. Presenting Future Cloud. One event, a world of opportunities brought to you by Cisco. >> Okay we're here with Kaustubh Das, Who is the senior vice president and general manager of cloud and compute at Cisco and Vijay Venugopal who is the senior director of product management for cloud compute at Cisco KD, Vijay, Good to see you guys. Welcome. >> Great to see you Dave. >> Good to be here. >> KD, let's talk about cloud. You- you and I last time we were face-to-face was in Barcelona where we love talking about cloud. And I always say to people, look Cisco is not a hyperscaler but the big public cloud players they're like giving you a gift. They spent almost- actually over a hundred billion dollars last year on CapEx, the big four. So you can build on that infrastructure. Cisco is all about Hybrid Cloud. So help us understand the strategy there and maybe how you can leverage that build out and importantly, what a customer is telling you they want out of Hybrid Cloud. >> Yeah, no, that's, that's that's a perfect question to start with Dave. So yes, so the hyperscalers have invested heavily building out their assets. That's a great, a lot of innovation coming from that space um there is also great innovation- sort of innovation coming from open source. And, and that's another source of a of a gift in fact to the IT community. But when I look at my customers, they're saying, well how do I, in the context of my business, implement a strategy that takes into consideration everything that I have to manage in terms of my contemporary workloads, in terms of my legacy, in terms of everything my developer community wants to do on DevOps and really harness that innovation that's built in the public cloud that is built an open source that is built internally to me, and that naturally leads them down the path of a hybrid cloud strategy. And Cisco's mission is to provide for that imperative, the simplest, most powerful platform to deliver Hybrid Cloud. And that platform is Intersight. We've been investing in Intersight, it's a it's a SaaS service. Intersight delivers to them that bridge between the states of today, their workload of today the need for them to be guardians of enterprise grade resiliency with the agility that's needed for the future, the embracing of cloud native of new paradigms of DevOps models, the embracing of innovation coming from public cloud and an opensource and bridging those two is what Intersight has been doing. That's kind of, that's kind of, the crux of our strategy of course we have the entire portfolio behind it to support any- any version of that whether that is on prem in the Cloud, Hybrid Cloud, Multi-Cloud and so forth. >> But, but, but if I understand it correctly from what I heard earlier today the Intersight is really a linchpin of that strategy. Is it not? >> It really is. And may take a second to, to to really familiarize those who don't know Intersight with what it is. We started building this platform quite a few years back and we, we built it ground up to be an immensely scalable SAS super simple hybrid cloud platform. And it's a platform that provides a slew of services inherently And then on top of that, there's suites of services there's suites of services that are tied to infrastructure automation, Cisco as well as Cisco partners, the suites of services that have nothing to do with Cisco products from a hardware perspective. And it's got to do with more cloud orchestration and cloud native and Intersight and its suite of services continue to kind of increase in, in pace and velocity of delivery. Well just, over the last two quarters we've announced a whole number of things. We'll go a little bit deeper into some of those but they span everything from infrastructure automation to Kubernetes, and delivering Kubernetes that service to workload optimization and having visibility into your cloud estate how much it's costing into your on prem state into your workloads and how they're performing. It's got integrations with other tooling, with both Cisco as well as non-Cisco assets. And then, and then it's got a whole slew of capabilities around orchestration because at the end of the day the job of IT is to deliver something that works and works at scale that you can monitor and make sure is resilient. And that includes a workflow and ability to say, you know, do this then do this and do this. Or it includes other ways of automation like infrastructures code and so forth. So it includes a self service that, so that spanned that but Intersight, the world's simplest Hybrid Cloud platform rapidly evolving, rapidly delivering new services. And we will talk about some more of those today. >> Great. Thank you, KD Vijay let's bring you into the discussion. You guys recently made an announcement with HashiCorp. I was stoked because even though it seemed like a long time ago, pre-COVID, I ma- in my predictions post, I said Hashi was a name to watch, our data partners ETR You look at the survey data and they really have become mainstream. You know, particularly we think very important in the whole multi-cloud discussion and as well they're attractive to customers they have open source offerings, You can very easily experiment smaller organizations can take advantage, but if you want to upgrade to enterprise features like clustering or whatever you can plug right in not a big complicated migration. So very, very compelling story there. Why is this important? Why is this partnership important to Cisco's customers? >> Absolutely Dave And spot on every single thing that you said. Let me just start by paraphrasing what our mission statement is in the cloud and compute group, right? Our mission statement is to enable a cloud operating model for Hybrid Cloud. And what we mean by that is the ability to have extreme amounts of automation, orchestration, and observability across your Hybrid Cloud IT operations. Now we- so developers and applications teams get a great amount of agility in public clouds. And we are on a mission to bring that kind of agility and automation to the private cloud and to the data centers. And Intersight is a key key platform and linchpin to enable that kind of operations cloud- like operations in the private clouds. And a key- as you rightly said- HashiCorp is the, you know, they were the inventors of the concept of Infrastructure as Code and in telephone, they have the world's number one Infrastructure as Code platform. So it became a natural partnership for Cisco to enter into a technology partnership with HasiCorp to integrate Intersight with HashiCorp's Terraform to bring the benefits of Infrastructure as Code to the two hybrid cloud operations. And we entered into a very tight integration and a partnership where we allow in our developers DevOps teams and infrastructure administrators to allow the use of Infrastructure as Code in a SAS delivered manner for both public and private cloud. So it's a very unique partnership and a unique integration that allows the benefits of cloud managed IAC to be delivered to hybrid cloud operations. And we're very, very happy and proud to be partnering with HasiCorp on that iniative >> Yeah, Terraform gets very high marks from customers. The- a lot of value there the Intersight integration adds to that value. Let's stay on cloud native for a minute. We all talk about cloud native. KD was sort of mentioning before you got the- the core apps. You want to protect those make sure they're enterprise grade but they got to be cool as well for developers you're connecting to other apps in the cloud or wherever. How are you guys thinking about this cloud native trend? What are the moves you are making in this regard? >> I mean, cloud native is the is one of the paramount IT trends of today. And you're seeing massive amounts of adoption of cloud native architectures in all modern applications now cloud native has become synonymous with Kubernetes these days. And Kubernetes has emerged as a de facto cloud native platform for modern cloud native app development. Now, what Cisco has done is we've created a brand new SaaS delivered Kubernetes service that is integrated with Intersight. We call it the Intersight Kubernetes service for IKS and this just g'd a little over one month ago. Now what Intersight Kubernetes service does is it delivers a cloud managed and cloud delivered Kubernetes service that can be deployed on any supported target infrastructure. It could be a Cisco infrastructure. It could be a third-party infrastructure or it could even be public cloud. But think of it as Kubernetes anywhere Delivered as SaaS managed from Intersight. So very powerful capability that we've just released into Intersight to enable the power of Kubernetes and cloud native to be used to be used anywhere. But today we made a very important announcement Because we have today, announced the brand new Cisco service Mesh Mangager The Cisco service mesh manager which is available as an extension to IKS or to Intersight basically we see service meshes as being the future of networking, right? In the past, we had layer two networking and layer three networking. And now with service meshes application networking and layer seven networking is the next frontier of networking. But you need to think about networking for the application age, very differently how it is managed, how it is deployed. It needs to be very developer friendly and developer centric And so what we've done is we've built out an application networking strategy and built out the Service Mesh Manager as a very simple way to deliver application networking to the consumers like developers and application teams. This is built on an acquisition that Cisco made recently of Banzai Cloud, and we've taken the assets of Banzai Cloud and delivered the Cisco service mesh manager as an extension to IKS that brings the promise of future networking and modern networking to application and development teams. >> Got it. Thank you, Vijay. And so KD let's-let's wrap this up. I mean, there was a lot in this announcement today a lot of themes around openness, heterogeneity and a lot of functionality and value. Give us your final thoughts. >> Absolutely. So a couple of things to close on first of all, Intersight is the simplest most powerful hybrid cloud platform out there. It enables that- that cloud operating model that that Vijay talked about, but enables that across cloud. So it's SAS, it's relatively easy to get into it and give it a spin so that I'd highly encourage anybody Who's not familiar with it to try it out. And anybody who is familiar with it to look at it again because there are probably services in there that you didn't notice, or didn't know last time you looked at it because we were moving so fast. So that's the first thing. The second thing I'll close with is we- we've been talking about this bridge. This kind of bridging- bridging your- your on prem your open source, your- your cloud estates. And it's so important to- to make that mental leap because in p- in past generation we used to talk about integrating technologies together. And then with public cloud we started talking about move to public cloud. But it's really, how do we integrate? How do we integrate all of that innovation that's coming from the hyperscale and everything they're doing to innovate super fast. All of that innovation has come from open source. All of that innovation that's coming from from companies around the world, including Cisco how do we integrate that to deliver an outcome? Because at the end of the day, if you're a cloud ops team if you're an IT ops team, your job is to deliver an outcome. And our mission is to make it super simple for you to do that. So that's the mission we're on. And we're hoping that everybody is as excited as we are about how simple they made that. >> Great. Thank you a lot, a lot in this announcement today. I appreciate you guys coming back on and helping us unpack some of the details. Thanks so much. Great having you. >> Thank you Dave >> Thank you >> And thank you everyone for spending some time with us. This is Dave Vellante and you're watching theCube the leader in tech event coverage. (Closing music)

from around the globe it's the cube with digital coverage of Red Hat summit 2020 brought to you by Red Hat last year in 2019 IBM made the biggest M&A move of the year with a 34 billion dollar acquisition of red hat it positioned IBM for the next decade after what was a very tumultuous tenure by CEO Ginni Rometty who had to shrink in order to grow unfortunately she didn't have enough time to do the grille part that has now gone toward Arvind Krishna the new CEO of IBM this is Dave Volante and I'm here with Stu minimun and this is our Red Hat keynote analysis is our 7th year doing the Red Hat summit and we're very excited to be here this is our first year doing Stu the Red Hat summit post IVM acquisition we've also got IBM think next week so what we want to do for you today is review what's going on at the Red Hat summits do you've been wall-to-wall with the interviews we're gonna break down the announcements IBM had just announced its quarter so we get some glimpse as to what's happening in the business and then we're gonna talk about going forward what the prognosis is for both IBM and Red Hat well and Dave of course our audience understands there's a reason why we're sitting farther apart than normal in our studio and you know why we're not in San Francisco where the show is supposed to be this year last year it's in Boston Red Hat summit goes coast-to-coast every year it's our seventh year doing the show first year doing it all digital of course our community is always online but you know real focus you know we're gonna talk about Dave you know you listen to the keynote speeches it's not the as we sit in our preview it's not the hoopla we had a preview with pork or mayor ahead of the event where they're not making big announcements most of the product pieces we're all out front it's open source anyway we know when it's coming for the most part some big partnership news of course strong customer momentum but a different tenor and the customers that Red Hat's lined up for me their interview all talking you know essential services like medical your your energy services your communication services so you know real focus I think Dave both IBM and right making sure that they are setting the appropriate tone in these challenging times yeah I mean everybody who we talked to says look at the employees and safety comes first once we get them working from home and we know that they're safe and healthy we want to get productive and so you've seen as we've reported that that shift to the work from home infrastructure and investments in that and so now it's all about how do we get closer to clients how do we stay close to clients and be there for them and I actually have you know business going forward you know the good news for IBM is it's got strong cash flow it's got a strong balance sheet despite you know the acquisition I mean it's just you know raise some more you know low low cost debt which you know gives them some dry powder going forward so I think IBM is gonna be fine it's just there's a lot of uncertainty but let's go back to your takeaways from the Red Hat Summit you've done you know dozens of interviews you got a good take on the company what are you top three takeaways - yeah so first of all Dave you know the focus everybody has is you know what does Red Hat do for the cloud story for IBM OpenShift especially is absolutely a highlight over 2,000 customers now from some really large ones you know last year I interviewed you know Delta you've got you know forward and Verizon up on stage for the keynote strong partnership with Microsoft talking about what they're doing so OpenShift has really strong momentum if you talk about you know where is the leadership in this whole kubernetes space Red Hat absolutely needs to be in that discussion not only are they you know other than Google the top contributor really there but from a customer standpoint the experience what they've built there but what I really liked from Red Hat standpoint is it's not just an infrastructure discussion it's not OPM's and containers and there's things we want to talk about about VMs and containers and even server lists from Red Hat standpoint but Red Hat at its core what it is it they started out as an operating system company rel Red Hat Enterprise Linux what's the tie between the OS and the application oh my god they've got decades of experience how do you build applications everything from how they're modernizing Java with a project called Korkis through how their really helping customers through this digital transformation I hear a similar message from Red Hat and their customers that I hear from Satya Nadella at Microsoft is we're building lots of applications we need to modernize what they're doing in Red Hat well positioned across the stack to not only be the platform for it but to help all of the pieces to help me modernize my applications build new ones modernize some of the existing ones so OpenShift a big piece of it you know automation has been a critical thing for a while we did the cube last year at ansible fest for the first time from Red Hat took that acquisition has helped accelerate that community in growth and they're really Dave pulling all the pieces together so it's what you hear from Stephanie shirasu ironically enough came over from IBM to run that business inside a Red Hat well you know now she's running it inside Red Hat and there's places that this product proliferate into the IBM portfolio next week when we get where it I didn't think I'm sure we'll hear a lot about IBM cloud packs and look at what's underneath IBM cloud packs there's open shift there's rel all those pieces so you know I know one of the things we want to talk about Davis you know what does that dynamic of Red Hat and IBM mean so you know open shift automation the full integration both of the Red Hat portfolio and how it ties in with IBM would be my top three well red hat is now IBM I mean it's a clearly part of the company it's there's a company strategy going forward the CEO Arvind Krishna is the architect of the Red Hat acquisition and so you know that it's all in on Red Hat Dave I mean just the nuance there of course is the the thing you hear over and over from the Red Hatters is Red Hat remains Red Hat that cultural shift is something I'd love to discuss because you know Jim Whitehurst now he's no longer a Red Hat employee he's an IBM employee so you've got Red Hat employees IBM employees they are keeping that you know separation wall but obviously there's flowing in technology and come on so come on in tech you look at it's not even close to what VMware is VMware is a separate public company has separate reporting Red Hat doesn't I mean yes I hear you yo you got the Red Hat culture and that's good but it's a far cry from you know a separate entity with full transparency the financials and and so I I hear you but I'm not fully buying it but let's let's get into it let's take a look at at the quarter because that I think will give us an indication as to how much we actually can understand about RedHat and and again my belief is it's really about IBM and RedHat together I think that is their opportunity so Alex if you wouldn't mind pulling up the first slide these are highlights from IBM's q1 and you know we won't spend much time on the the the IBM side of the business although we wanted to bring some of that in but hit the key here as you see red hat at 20% revenue growth so still solid revenue growth you know maybe a little less robust than it was you know sequentially last quarter but still very very strong and that really is IBM's opportunity here 2,200 clients using red hat and an IBM container platforms the key here is when Ginni Rometty announced this acquisition along with Arvind Krishna and Jim Whitehurst she said this is going to be this is going to be cash flow free cash flow accretive in year one they've already achieved that they said it's gonna be EPS accretive by year two they are well on their way to achieving that why we talked about this do it's because iBM has a huge services organization that it can plug open shift right into and begin to modernize applications that are out there I think they cited on the call that they had a hundred ongoing projects and that is driving immediate revenue and allows IBM to from a financial standpoint to get an immediate return so the numbers are pretty solid yeah absolutely Dave and you know talking about that there is a little bit of the blurring a line between the companies one of the product pieces that came out at the show is IBM has had for a couple of years think you know MCM multi cloud management there was announced that there were actually some of the personnel and some of the products from IBM has cut have come into Retta of course Red Hat doing what they always do they're making it open source and they're it's advanced cluster management really from my viewpoint this is an answer to what we've seen in the kubernetes community for the last year there is not one kubernetes distribution to rule them all I'm going to use what my platforms have and therefore how do I manage across my various cloud environments so Red Hat for years is OpenShift lives everywhere it sits on top of VMware virtualization environments it's on top of AWS Azure in Google or it just lives in your Linux farms but ACM now is how do I manage my kubernetes environment of course you know super optimized to work with OpenShift and the roadmap as to how it can manage with Azure kubernetes and some of the other environments so you know you now have some former IBM RS that are there and as you said Dave some good acceleration in the growth from the Red Hat numbers we'd seen like right around the time that the acquisition happened Red Hat had a little bit of a down quarter so you know absolutely the services and the the scale that IBM can bring should help to bring new logos of course right now Dave with the current global situation it's a little bit tough to go and be going after new business yeah and we'll talk about that a little bit but but I want to come back to sort of when I was pressing you before on the trip the true independence of Red Hat by the way I don't think that's necessarily a wrong thing I'll give an example look at Dell right now why is Dell relevant and cloud well okay but if Dell goes to market says we're relevant in cloud because of VMware well then why am I talking to you why don't I talk to VMware and so so my point is that that in some regards you know having that integration is there is a real advantage no you know you were that you know EMC and the time when they were sort of flip-flopping back and forth between integrated and not and separate and not it's obviously worked out for them but it's not necessarily clear-cut and I would say in the case of IBM I think it's the right move why is that every Krista talked about three enduring platforms that IBM has developed one is mainframe that's you know gonna here to stay the second was middleware and the third is services and he's saying that hybrid cloud is now the fourth and during platform that they want to build well how do they gonna build that what are they gonna build that on they're gonna build that an open shift they they're there other challenges to kind of retool their entire middleware portfolio around OpenShift not unlike what Oracle did with with Fusion when it when it bought Sun part of the reason - pod Sun was for Java so these are these are key levers not necessarily in and of themselves you know huge revenue drivers but they lead to awesome revenue opportunities so that's why I actually think it's the right move that what IBM is doing keep the Red Hat to the brand and culture but integrate as fast as possible to get cash flow or creative we've achieved that and get EPS accretive that to me makes a lot of sense yeah Dave I've heard you talk often you know if you're not a leader in a position or you know here John Chambers from Cisco when he was running it you know if I'm not number one or number two why am I in it how many places did IBM have a leadership position Red Hat's a really interesting company because they have a leadership position in Linux obviously they have a leadership position now in kubernetes Red Hat culturally of course isn't one to jump up and down and talk about you know how they're number one in all of these spaces because it's about open source it's about community and you know that does require a little bit of a cultural shift as IBM works with them but interesting times and yeah Red Hat is quietly an important piece of the ecosystem let me let me bring in some meteor data Alex if you pull up that that's that second slide well and I've shown this before in braking analysis and what this slide shows in the vertical axis shows net score net score is a measure of spending momentum spending velocity the the horizontal axis is is is called market share it's really not market share it's it's really a measure of pervasiveness the the mentions in the data set we're talking about 899 responses here out of over 1200 in the April survey and this is a multi cloud landscape so what I did here Stu I pulled on containers container platforms of container management and cloud and we positioned the companies on this sort of XY axis and you can see here you obviously have in the upper right you've got Azure in AWS why do I include AWS and the multi cloud landscape you answered that question before but yesterday because Dave even though Amazon might not allow you to even use the word multi cloud you can't have a discussion of multi cloud without having Amazon in that discussion and they've shifted on hybrid expect them to adjust their position on multi-cloud in the future yeah now coming back to this this this data you see kubernetes is on the kubernetes I know is another company but ETR actually tracks kubernetes you can see how hot it is in terms of its net score and spending momentum yeah I mean Dave do you know the thing the the obvious thing to look at there is if you see how strong kubernetes is if IBM plus red hat can keep that leadership in kubernetes they should do much better in that space than they would have on with just their products alone and that's really the lead of this chart that really cuts to the chase do is you see you see red Red Hat openshift has really strong spending momentum although I will say if you back up back up to say April July October 18 19 it actually was a little higher so it's been pushed down remember this is the April survey that what's ran from mid-march to mid April so we're talking right in the middle of the pandemic okay so everybody's down but nonetheless you can see the opportunity is for IBM and Red Hat to kind of meet in the middle leverage IBM's massive install base in its in its services presence in its market presence its pervasiveness so AKA market share in this rubric and then use Red Hat's momentum and kind of meet in the middle and that's the kind of point that we have here with IBM's opportunity and that really is why IBM is a leader in at least a favorite in my view in multi cloud well Dave if you'd look two years ago and you said what was the competitive landscape Red Hat was an early leader in the kubernetes you know multi-cloud discussion today if you ask everybody well who's doing great and kubernetes you have to talk about all the different options that amazon has Amazon still has their own container management with ACS of course IKS is doing strong and well and Amazon whatever they do they we know they're going to be competitive Microsoft's there but it's not all about competition in this space Dave because you know we see Red Hat partnering across these environments they do have a partnership with AWS they do have you know partnership with you know Microsoft up on stage there so where it was really interesting Dave you know one of the things I was coming into this show looking is what is Red Hat's answer to what VMware is really starting to do in this space so vSphere 7 rolled out and that is the ga of project Pacific so taking virtualization in containers and putting them together Red Hat of course has had virtualization for a long time with KVM they have a different answer of how they're doing openshift virtualization and it rather than saying here's my virtual environment and i can also do kubernetes on it they're saying containers are the future and where you want to go and we can bring your VMs into containers really shift them the way you have really kind of a lift and shift but then modernize them Dave customers are good you know you want to meet customers where they are you want to help them move forward virtualization in general has been a you don't want to touch your applications you want to just you know let it ride forever but the real the real driver for companies today is I've got to build new apps I need to modernize on my environment and you know Red Hat is positioning and you know I like what I'm hearing from them I like what I'm hearing from my dad's customers on how they're helping take both the physical the virtual the containers in the cloud and bring them all into this modern era yeah and and you know IBM made an early bet on on kubernetes and obviously around Red Hat you could see actually on that earlier slide we showed you IBM we didn't really talk about it they said they had 23% growth in cloud which is that they're a twenty two billion dollar business for IBM you're smiling yeah look good for IBM they're gonna redefine cloud you know let AWS you know kick and scream they're gonna say hey here's how we define cloud we include our own pram we include Cano portions of our consulting business I mean I honestly have no idea what's in the 22 billion and how if they're growing 22 billion at 23% wow that's pretty awesome I'm not sure I think they're kind of mixing apples and oranges there but it makes for a good slide yeah you would say wait shouldn't that be four billion you added he only added two or three billion you know numbers can tell a story but you can also manipulate but the point is the point is I've always said this near term the to get you know return on this deal it's about plugging OpenShift into services and modernizing applications long term it's about maintaining IBM and red-hats relevance in the hybrid cloud world which is I don't know how big it is it's a probably a trillion-dollar opportunity that really is critical from a strategy standpoint do I want to ask you about the announcements what about any announcements that you saw coming from Red Hat are relevant what do we need to know there yeah so you know one of the bigger ones we already talked about that you know multi cloud manager what Red Hat has the advanced cluster management or ACM absolutely is an era an area we should look VMware Tong's ooh Azure Ark Google anthos and now ACM from Red Hat in partnership with IBM is an area still really early Dave I talked to some of the executives in the space and say you know are we going to learn from the mistakes of multi vendor management Dave you know you think about the CA and BMC you know exactly of the past will we have learned for those is this the right way to do it it is early but Red Hat obviously has a position here and they're doing it um did hear plenty about how Red Hat is plugging into all the IBM environments Dave Z power you know the cloud solutions and of course you know IBM solutions across the board my point of getting a little blue wash but hey it's got to happen I think that's a smart move right you know we talked about you know really modernizing the applications in the environments I talked a bit about the virtualization piece the other one if you say okay how do I pull the virtualization forward what about the future so openshift serverless is the other one it's really a tech preview at this point it's built off of the K native project which is part of the CNC F which is basically how do I still have you know containers and kubernetes underneath can that plug into server list order server let's get it rid of it everything so IBM Oracle Red Hat and others really been pushing hard on this Kay native solution it is matured a lot there's an ecosystem growing as how it can connect to Asher how it can connect to AWS so definitely something from that appdev piece to watch and Dave that's where I had some really good discussions with customers as well as the the Red Hat execs and their partners that boundary between the infrastructure team and the app dev team they're hoping to pull them together and some of the tooling actually helps ansible is a great example of that in the past but you know others in the portfolio and lastly if you want to talk a huge opportunity for Red Hat IBM and it's a jump ball for everyone is edge computing so Red Hat I've talked to them for years about what they were doing in the opened stack community with network function virtualization or NFV Verizon was up on stage I've got an interview for Red Hat summit with Vodafone idea which has 300 million subscribers in India and you know the Red Hat portfolio really helping a lot of the customers there so it's the telco edge is where we see a strong push there it's definitely something we've been watching from the you know the big cloud players and those partnerships Dave so you know last year Satya Nadella was up on the main stage with Red Hat this year Scott Guthrie you know there he's at every Microsoft show and he's not the red head show so it is still ironic for those of us that have watched this industry and you say okay where are some of the important partnerships for Red Hat its Microsoft I mean you know we all remember when you know open-source was the you know evil enemy for from Microsoft and of course Satya Nadella has changed things a lot it's interesting to watch I'm sure we'll talk more at think Dave you know Arvind Krishna the culture he will bring in with the support of Jim Whitehurst comes over from IBM compared to what Satya has successfully done at Microsoft well let's talk about that let's let's talk about let's bring it home with the sort of near-term midterm and really I want to talk about the long term strategic aspects of IBM and Red Hat's future so near-term IBM is suspended guidance like everybody okay they don't have great visibility some some some things to watch by the way a lot of people are saying no just you know kind of draw draw a red line through this quarter you just generally ignore it I disagree look at cash flow look balance sheets look at what companies are doing and how they're positioning that's very important right now and will give us some clues and so there's a couple of things that we're watching with IBM one is their software business crashed in March and software deals usually come in big deals come in at the end of the quarter people were too distracted they they stopped spending so that's a concern Jim Cavanaugh on the call talked about how they're really paying attention to those services contracts to see how they're going are they continuing what's the average price of those so that's something that you got to watch you know near-term okay fine again as I said I think IBM will get through this what really I want to talk about to do is the the prospects going forward I'm really excited about the choice that IBM made the board putting Arvind Krishna in charge and the move that he made in terms of promoting you know Jim Whitehurst to IBM so let's talk about that for a minute Arvind is a technical visionary and it's it's high time that I VM got back to it being a technology company first because that's what IBM is and and I mean Lou Gerstner you know arguably save the company they pivoted to services Sam Palmisano continue that when Ginny came in you know she had a services heritage she did the PWC deal and IBM really became a services company first in my view Arvind is saying explicitly we want to lead with technology and I think that's the right move of course iBM is going to deliver outcomes that's what high-beams heritage has been for the last 20 years but they are a technology company and having a technology visionary at the lead is very important why because IBM essentially is the leader prior to Red Hat and one thing mainframes IBM used to lead in database that used to lead in storage they used to lead in the semiconductors on and on and on servers now they lead in mainframes and and now switch to look at Red Hat Red Hat's a leader you know they got the best product out there so I want you to talk about how you see that shift to more of a sort of technical and and product focus preserving obviously but your thoughts on the move the culture you're putting Jim as the president I love it I think it was actually absolutely brilliant yeah did Dave absolutely I know we were excited because we you know personally we know both of those leaders they are strong leaders they are strong technically Dave when I think about all the companies we look at I challenge anybody to find a more consistent and reliable pair of companies than IBM and Red Hat you know for years it was you know red hat being an open-source company and you know the way their business model said it it's not the you know Evan flow of product releases we know what the product is going to be the roadmaps are all online and they're gonna consistently grow what we've seen Red Hat go from kind of traditional software models to the subscription model and there are some of the product things we didn't get into too much as to things that they have built into you know Red Hat Enterprise Linux and expanding really their cloud and SAS offerings to enhance those environments and that that's where IBM is pushing to so you know there's been some retooling for the modern era they are well positioned to help customers through that you know digital transformation and as you said Dave you and I we both read the open organization by Jim lighters you know he came in to Red Hat you know really gave some strong leadership the culture is strong they they have maintained you know really strong morale and I talked to people inside you know was their concern inside when IBM was making the acquisition of course there was we've all seen some acquisitions that have gone great when IBM has blue washed them they're trying to make really strong that Red Hat stays Red Hat to your point you know Dave we've already seen some IBM people go in and some of the leadership now is on the IBM side so you know can they improve the product include though improve those customer outcomes and can Red Hat's culture actually help move IBM forward you know company with over a hundred years and over 200,000 employees you'd normally look and say can a 12,000 person company change that well with a new CEO with his wing and you know being whitehurst driving that there's a possibility so it's an interesting one to watch you know absolutely current situations are challenging you know red hats growth is really about adding new logos and that will be challenged in the short term yeah Dave I I love you shouldn't let people off the hook for q2 maybe they need to go like our kids this semester is a pass/fail rather than a grid then and then a letter grade yeah yeah and I guess my point is that there's information and you got to squint through it and I think that look at to me you know this is like Arvin's timing couldn't be better not that he orchestrated it but I mean you know when Ginny took over I mean was over a hundred million a hundred billion I said many times that I beams got a shrink to grow she just ran out of time for the Gro part that's now on Arvind and I think that so he's got the cove in mulligan first of all you know the stocks been been pressured down so you know his tenure he's got a great opportunity to do with IBM in a way what such an adela did is doing at Microsoft you think about it they're both deep technologists you know Arvind hardcore you know computer scientist Indian Institute of Technology Indian Institute of Technology different school than Satya went to but still steeped in in a technical understanding a technical visionary who can really Drive you know product greatness you know in a I would with with Watson we've talked a lot about hybrid cloud quantum is something that IBM is really investing heavily in and that's a super exciting area things like blockchain some of these new areas that I think IBM can lead and it's all running on the cloud you know look IBM generally has been pretty good with acquisitions they yes they fumbled a few but I've always made the point they are in the cloud game IBM and Oracle yeah they're behind from a you know market share standpoint but they're in the game and they have their software estate in their pass a state to insulate them from the race to the bottom so I really like their prospects and I like the the organizational structure that they put in place in it by the way it's not just Arvind Jim you mentioned Paul Cormier you know Rob Thomas has been been elevated to senior VP really important in the data analytic space so a lot of good things going on there yeah and Dave one of the questions you've been asking and we've been all talking to leaders in the industry you know what changes permanently after the this current situation you know automation you know more adoption of cloud the importance of developers are there's even more of a spotlight on those environments and Red Hat has strong positioning in that space a lot of experience that they help their customers and being open source you know very transparent there I both IBM and Red Hat are doing a lot to try to help the community they've got contests going online to you know help get you know open source and hackers and people working on things and you know strong leadership to help lead through these stormy weathers so Stuart's gonna be really interesting decade and the cube will be here to cover it hopefully hopefully events will come back until they do will be socially responsible and and socially distant but Stu thanks for helping us break down the the red hat and sort of tipping our toe into IBM more coverage and IBM think and next week this is Dave alotta for Stu minimun you're watching the cube and our continuous coverage of the Red Hat summit keep it right there be back after this short break you [Music]

>> Live from San Francisco, it's theCUBE. Covering IBM Think 2019. Brought to you by IBM. >> Welcome back to San Francisco, everybody. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in live tech coverage. My name is Dave Vellante and I'm with my cohost, Stu Minman, Lisa Martin is also here. John Furrier'll be up tomorrow. This is day one of IBM Think. Kind of the pregame, Stu. The festivities kick off tomorrow, they're building out the Solutions Center, they got Howard Street takeover. We're in Moscone North, stop by and see us. Daniel Berg is here. He's a distinguished engineer with IBM Cloud Kubernetes service IBM, of course. Dan, great to see you again. >> Thank you. Thank you very much. >> Thanks for coming on. So everybody's got a Kubernetes story these days. What's IBM's Kubernetes story? >> So, IBM has taken a big bet on Kubernetes, two, two and a half years ago. Never really looked back, it's our primary foundation for our platform services. And we have two key distributions for the Kubernetes service, we have IBM Cloud Private, which is a software distribution for on premises, set up your own private cloud based on Kubernetes, behind your firewall. And then we have a manage service in the public cloud. So you're moving to public cloud, doing cloud native, grab an API, CLI, you get a cluster. >> So a lot of people think Kubernetes, oh, I can be able to move it anywhere, private cloud, public cloud. But there are other benefits of just, say, for instance, a private cloud. Maybe explain those. >> Yeah, I mean the biggest benefit for us is that we're able to give you the IBM cloud experience and IBM cloud content, so IBM content, middleware, things that you've been using for a decade. We've modernized it, put it in containers, install it and manage it on Kubernetes. The nice thing is that content, you can bring on premises where it's needed the most, and run it in ICP, IBM Cloud Private, and also take that and run it in our public cloud, as you migrate and move those workloads into the public sector. >> Dan, one of the things we've been watching is, you talk about a hybrid cloud or a multi-cloud world. There's a lot of pieces and it can be complicated. >> Yes. >> Now, Kubernetes itself, not exactly the simplest solution out there, but when you can deliver it as a service, but you can take a certain piece of your environment and IBM helps to simplify that. Maybe explain what it simplifies and, you know, what still are some of the hard places that we have to play at in these environments? >> Yeah, definitely. So, I mean, the IBM cloud Kubernetes service, we, anyone that has dealt with Kubernetes knows it's easy to install , pretty easy to set up, and basically easy to get started. It's the day two, it's the operations, it's the long pull. It's doing all the updates, the maintenance, the security patches, the securing it. Making it highly available, that's hard. And that's hard over time, and it takes a lot of resources. So IKS is a service that, we do that. Let the experts do it, is basically what we tell people. We are experts at managing Kubernetes. We do this as our day job, 24/7, right? Literally, because we manage a 24/7 service. So we operate it 24/7 and we keep it updated. That allows our customers to focus on their business problem. Focus on their app, not building the platform. But there are still some complexities, because you have, you don't have just one cluster. If you only had one cluster, it'd be no big deal. I probably wouldn't have a job. But you have many clusters. You've got development clusters, you've got test clusters. But if you're doing a global service, you've got many clusters throughout the world. Highly available clusters. You put clusters in various data centers for keeping your data in one location, right? So you've got many clusters, so it gets complicated to manage all of those clusters. So, with Kubernetes service we provide all the capabilities to manage and set up and secure your cluster, but then the content, like, moving and configuring things across all those clusters, becomes complicated. And that's where we released recently a new product called Multicloud Manager. >> Tell us, you know, tell us more. (laughter) >> I thought you were going to ask a question. (laughs) So, Multicloud Manager, what it basically does is it provides a control plane that allows you to manage, and today it manages resources, Kubernetes resources, across many different clouds, across many different cloud platforms. So it works with our Cloud Private, which runs on premises, but it also works with our public cloud, IKS. And it can work with other cloud providers, it can work with Amazon, it can work with Google, it can work with Azure. And it works with OpenShift, as well, obviously. So those, having that one tool, then, gives you the mechanism to drive consistency of the resources across all of those distribution of Kubernetes clusters that you have. And another big thing that it does, and it helps with, is security compliance. So it has ability to define security postures that you need to have across your clusters, and then apply it and run it in both a check mode, to see is that policy, or, provided across all your clusters, and where do you have gaps? And then it also has a setting to do enforcement. So, if it's not there, it'll make it there, it'll make it so. >> So, IBM hides all that complexity from the customer. >> Yes. >> But I'm curious as to what the conversations are like, Dan, with the customer. In other words, you're basically figuring out how to do it. Customer knows what it's doing. Do you ever get into a situation, no, of course, at scale you wan consistency and standards. So, do you ever get into a situation where a customer says, well, I'd like you to do it this way, and what's that conversation like? >> Yeah, so that's where, and that's where it's nice having multiple distributions, right? So having, so in our public cloud with IKS, having variations and unique configurations for each and every customer, I don't, we don't do that, right? It's a service. And services scale and provide value by doing consistency, right? So we consistently set up and manage clusters, thousands of, tens of thousands of clusters that way. But if you need something that's highly, highly specific to a given use case or you have differences in your infrastructure that you need to have more flexibility, that's where IBM Cloud Private comes in. And we do have customers like, especially on premises, right? On premises, those ae unique beasts, right? The infrastructure, the hardware, the network. You got to have a custom configuration. So coupling our ICP production with global services team, they can come in and they can customize it to suit any customer's needs. >> So, Dan, you talked about living in multiple environments, whether that be public cloud, your private cloud, you also mentioned Red Hat, I think, in there. Tell us where customers are today with OpenShift, where that fits, and give as a little bit compare contrast as to what IBM's doing today. >> Yeah, definitely. So, and it's interesting, watching what's hapepening in the industry, because there's the whole push to cloud, and everybody knows they want to get there, but trying to get there all in one fell swoop with all the workloads that you have on premises is quite complicated and difficult and almost impossible to do on day one. So, the story is all about how do I modernize what I have today, on premises? And how does IBM help with that in my journey to move into public cloud? And that's where, I know it's a buzzword, but hybrid cloud comes in. But for me, the hybrid cloud, and what our customers are saying, is that I want to modernize what I have, so give me a platform there. And ICP, IBM Cloud Private, and OpenShift are the two best products in the market, bar none, that provide that experience there. And our ICP runs on top of OpenShift, so for those customers that have already been invested in the OpenShift space, you still get the value of IBM's content and integrated monitoring, integrated logging, right there in that product space, on the platform for which they're already standardized. >> How do you define best? What are the attributes of high quality and best? >> So, I guess best is (laughs) kind of difficult to really define. But for us it's all about ensuring that we have a solid platform, a solid strategy and technology set that we're building our offerings from. And we gain a lot of experience from our public cloud. Because we built and standardized on Kubernetes, we provide Kubernetes service, and we do that at scale and secure as well as highly available. We take a lot of those same lessons, because we have hundreds of customers running on it at scale. We take those lessons and we help evolve our private cloud offering as well. So we bring those down, we provide a very tuned somewhat customizable, but, highly tuned supporting IBM content in that environment. So when I say best, it is definitely the best platform for running IBM content, right? It's tuned for running IBM content, bare none. >> Okay, and my other question is, you know, you'd mentioned hybrid, said it was a buzzword, okay, fine. But at least we know what hybrid is. You got resources on pram, you've got resources in the public cloud, multi cloud is the other buzzword. Sometimes we worry that companies that are, vendors like yourselves going after this multi cloud opportunity, which is, you know, clearly a large opportunity and one that's needed, because I want a consistent way of managing at scale. But there seems to be a lot of different initiatives within organizations. There might be different lines of business, there might be, you know, international people. Are you seeing any hope or sense that the customer constituents are getting together? The different constituents saying, hey, this is the strategy that we want to use to manage all of our clouds. Or is sort of, you know, fiefdoms that are popping up? What do you see there? >> Yeah, so it's funny, when you do go into a large organization, a large enterprise. You're having a conversation, they've made a choice down one path using, let's say, IKS as an example. But then you realize you're having another conversation with another group that hasn't made any choices. I don't think that within an organization, within a large enterprise, coming together and saying we're all going to go down one path with one tool to rule them all. I just don't, I just don't see it, right? And also, even just going down the path of saying, I'm only going to stick and use one cloud vendor. That's also somewhat a thing of the past, you don't see that anymore, at least where customers are moving, so within an organization, yes, you still have the lines of businesses, and they might have different tools and they might decide on different tools and how they manage their environments. But the thing that customers do need to look at, and what they do need to standardize across an enterprise, is just some of the core tenets and the core technologies. So, for example, if they're moving the cloud, whether it's one premises or off premises, what's the platform that you're going to build to so you have portability? It's got to be Kubernetes, right? That is a decision that as an organization, as an enterprise, you've got to agree on as you move forward. Because, whether you use the same provider or the same set of tools doesn't matter as much. It'd be nice. But you got to have some agreement on the core technologies and platforms. >> Because ultimately you can get there. It might be a little harder, but still, if you're core Kubernetes, it's not, it's going to be easier than different flavors of UNIOS, for example. (laughs) >> There's path, >> there's at least a path that as they mature and as they simplify and they converge, they can do that seamlessly. >> Dan, back to the cloud monitoring tool that IBM has. Who's the constituency, who uses that? And give us a little bit of color inside, you know, kind of the administrator, developer, you know cloud architect, you know, what do you see? >> Well, yeah, so that's a great one. The cloud monitoring, IBM cloud monitoring provides visibility into your workloads within your environment. And that's not specific to just Kubernetes, either, right? There's Kubernetes, but then there's VMs and bare metal workloads, more traditional workloads that the monitoring service works just fine. The, our developers, have to have a monitoring solution. You can't build a cloud native solution without monitoring, right? Monitoring and log, they, it's like peanut butter and jelly. You got to have 'em. And if you're building a cloud native solution, you're building Kubernetes, you're dealing with multiple clusters, like I said earlier. Hundreds, if not thousands, of workloads. You can't log into each one of 'em. You need, you need a system where you can monitor and log. So the monitoring service is necessary here for simple developers to understand what's happening in their environment. And our partnership STEG provides us with a very rich monitoring solution, which we've done extensive integration in IBM cloud to make it simple for even developers. They don't have to go and install and set up STEG themselves. All they do is a simple I want a new instance. Directly in the IBM cloud catalog they get a new instance of STEG and it gets installed into their cluster and they're off and running. Simple as that. >> And we're talking, we're talking visibility on things like performance management, security? >> Network. >> Problem, change management. >> Yes, yes, absolutely. So you get, and obviously that's all configurable, but what's nice with STEG and one of the reasons I like it, especially as a developer, as soon as you turn it on for one of your clusters, there's so much rich data that's available there, just out of the box. And they support other projects too and provide integration, deep integration, like the Istio project, for example. Great little project for service mesh. STEG supports that out of the box as well. Built in polling metrics, dashboards built specifically for Istio, and I don't have to do anything as a developer. I just turn it on, and then I start watching. (laughs) Seeing all the metrics coming. >> So it's kind of day zero here at IBM Think. Dan, what are some of the things that you're hoping to accomplish this week? I know you've got a bunch of customer meetings. Some of the things you're excited about. >> Yeah, definitely, lots of sessions, great sessions. But it is the customer meetings I'm most excited about. I have a large number of 'em. I want to hear what they're doing, right? I want to understand a little bit better what they would like us to do, and moving forward, how can we help them? How can we help accelerate their adoption of cloud? Get on the cloud native, and obviously, I'm here to talk Kubernetes and containers, so the more I get to talk about that, the happier I'm going to be. >> Well, it's a hot space. We're bringing you theCUBE inside of our little container here. Dan Berg, thanks very much for coming on today. >> Thank you. >> All right, Dave Vellante for Stu Miniman. You're watching theCUBE from IBM Think, day one. We'll be right back right after this short break. (light music)

>> Live from Seattle, Washington it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Hey, welcome back everyone, it's theCUBE live here in Seattle for day three of three of wall-to-wall coverage. We've been analyzing here on theCUBE for three days, talking to all the experts, the CEOs, CTOs, developers, startups. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman, with theCUBE coverage of here at dock, not DockerCon, KubeCon and CloudNativeCon. Getting down to the last Con. >> So close, John, so close. >> Lot of Docker containers around here. We'll check it on the Kubernetes. Our next two guests got a startup, hot startup here. You got Norman Hsieh, head of business development, LogDNA. New compelling solution on Kubernetes give them a unique advantage, and of course, Daniel Berg who's distinguished engineer at IBM. They have a deal. We're going to talk about the startup and the deal with IBM. The highlights, kind of a new model, a new world's developing. Thanks for joining us. >> Yeah, no problem, thanks for having us. >> May get you on at DockerCon sometimes. (Daniel laughing) Get you DockerCon. The container certainly been great, talk about your product first. Let's get your company out there. What do you guys do? You got something new and different. Something needed. What's different about it? >> Yeah, so we started building this product. One thing we were trying to do is finding a login solution that was built for developers, especially around DevOps. We were running our own multi-tenant SaaS product at the time and we just couldn't find anything great. We tried open source Elastic and it turned out to be a lot to manage, there was a lot of configuration we had to do. We tried a bunch of the other products out there which were mostly built for log analysis, so you'd analyze logs, maybe a week or two after, and there was nothing just realtime that we wanted, and so we decided to build our own. We overcame a lot of challenges where we just felt that we could build something that was easier to use than what was out there today. Our philosophy is for developers in the terms of we want to make it as simple as possible. We don't want you to manage where you're going to think about how logs work today. And so, the whole idea, even you can go down to some of the integrations that we have, our Kubernetes integration's two lines. You essentially hit two QCTL lines, your entire cluster will get logged, directly logged in in seconds. That's something we show often times at demos as well. >> Norman, I wonder if you can drill in a little bit more for us. Always look at is a lot of times the new generation, they've got just new tools to play with and new things to do. What was different, what changes? Just the composability and what a small form factor. I would think that you could just change the order of magnitude in some of the pricing of some of these. Tell us why it's different. >> Yeah, I mean, I think there's, three major things was speed. So what we found was that there weren't a lot of solutions that were optimized really, really well for finding logs. There were a lot of log solutions out there, but we wanted to optimize that so we fine-tuned Elasticsearch. We do a lot of stuff around there to make that experience really pleasurable for our users. The other is scale. So we're noticing now is if you kind of expand on the world of back in the day we had single machines that people got logs off of, then you went to VMware where you're taking a single machine and splitting up to multiple different things, and now you have containers, and all of a sudden you have Kubernetes, you're talking about thousands and thousands of nodes running and large production service. How do you find logs in those things? And so we really wanted to build for that scale and that usability where, for Kubernetes, we'll automatically tag all your logs coming through. So you might get a single log line, but we'll tag it with all the meta-data you need to find exactly what you want. So if I want to, if my container dies and I no longer know that containers around, how am I going to get the logs off of that, well, you can go to LogDNA, find the container that you're looking for, know exactly where that error's coming from as well. >> So you're basically storing all this data, making it really easy for the integration piece. Where does the IBM relationship fit in? What's the partnership? What are you guys doing together? >> I don't know if Dan wants to-- >> Go ahead, go ahead. >> Yeah, so we're partnering with IBM. We are one of their major partners for login. So if you go into Observability tab under IMB Cloud and click on Login, login is there, you can start the login instance. What we've done is, IBM's brought us a great opportunity where we could take our product and help benefit their own customers and also IBM themselves with a lot of the login that we do. They saw that we are very simplistic way of thinking about logs and it was really geared towards when you think about IBM Cloud and the shift that they're moving towards, which is really developer-focused, it was a really, really good match for us. It brought us the visibility into the upmarket with larger customers and also gives us the ability to kind of deploy globally across IBM Cloud as well. >> I mean, IBMs got a great channel on the sales side too, and you guys got a great relationship. We've seen that playbook before where I think we've interviewed in all the other events with IBM. Startups can really, if they fit in with IBM, it's just massive, but what's the reason? Why the partnership? Explain. >> Well, I mean, first of all we were looking for a solution, a login solution, that fit really well with IKS, our Kubernetes service. And it's cloud-native, high scale, large number of cluster, that's what our customers are building. That's what we want to use internally as well. I mean, we were looking for a very robust cloud-native login service that we could use ourselves, and that's when we ran across these guys. What, about a year ago? >> Yeah, I mean, I think we kind of first got introduced at last year's KubeCon and then it went to Container World, and we just kept seeing each other. >> And we just kept on rolling with it so what we've done with that integration, what's nice about the integration, is it's directly in the catalog. So it's another service in the catalog, you go and select it, and provision it very easily. But what's really cool about it is we wanted to have that integration directly with the Kubernetes services as well, so there's the tab on the Integration tab on the Kubernetes, literally one button, two lines of code that you just have to execute, bam! All your logs are now streaming for the entire cluster with all the index and everything. It just makes it a really nice, rich experience to capture your logs. >> This is infrastructure as code, that's what the promise was. >> Absolutely, yes. >> You have very seamless integration and the backend just works. Now talk about the Kubernetes pieces. I think this is fascinating 'cause we've been pontificating and evaluating all the commentary here in theCUBE, and we've come to the conclusion that cloud's great, but there's other new platform-like things emerging. You got Edge and all these things, so there's a whole new set, new things are going to come up, and it's not going to be just called cloud, it's going to be something else. There's Edge, you got cameras, you got data, you got all kinds of stuff going on. Kubernetes seems to fit a lot of these emerging use cases. Where does the Kubernetes fit in? You say you built on Kubernetes, just why is that so important? Explain that one piece. >> Yeah, I mean, I think there's, Kubernetes obviously brought a lot of opportunities for us. The big differentiator for us was because we were built on Kubernetes from the get go, we made that decision a long time ago, we didn't realize we could actually deploy this package anywhere. It didn't have to be, we didn't have to just run as a multi-tenant SaaS product anymore and I think part of that is for IBM, their customers are actually running, when they're talking about an integrated login service, we're actually running on IBM Cloud, so their customers can be sure that the data doesn't actually move anywhere else. It's going to stay in IBM Cloud and-- >> This is really important and because they're on the Kubernetes service, it gives them the opportunity, running on Kubernetes, running automatic service, they're going to be able to put LogDNA in each of the major regions. So customer will be able to keep their logged data in the regions that they want it to stay. >> Great for compliance. >> Absolutely. >> I mean, compliance, dreams-- >> Got to have it. >> Especially with EU. >> How about search and discovery, that's fit in too? Just simple, what's your strategy on that? >> Yeah, so our strategy is if you look at a lot of the login solutions out there today, a lot of times they require you to learn complex query languages and things like that. And so the biggest thing we were hearing was like, man, onboarding is really hard because some of our developers don't look at logs on a daily basis. They look at it every two weeks. >> Jerry Chen from Greylock Ventures said machine learning is the new, ML is the new SQL. >> Yup. (Daniel laughing) >> To your point, this complex querying is going to be automated away. >> Yup. >> Yes. >> And you guys agree with that. >> Oh, yeah. >> You actually, >> Totally agree with that. >> you talked about it on our interview. >> Norman, wonder if you can bring us in a little bit of compliance and what discussions you're having with customers. Obviously GDPR, big discussion point we had. We've got new laws coming from California soon. So how important is this to your customers, and what's the reality kind of out there in your user base? >> Yeah, compliance was, our founders had run a lot of different businesses before. They had two major startups where they worked with eBay, compliance was the big thing, so we made a decision early on to say, hey, look, we're about 50 people right now, let's just do compliance now. I've been at startups where we go, let's just keep growing and growing and we'll worry about compliance later-- >> Yeah, bite you in the ass, big time. >> Yeah, we made a decision to say, hey, look, we're smaller, let's just implement all the processes and necessary needs, so. >> Well, the need's there too, that's two things, right? I mean, get it out early. Like security, build it up front and you got it in. >> Exactly. >> And remember earlier we were talking and I was telling you how within the Kubernetes service we like to use our own services to build expertise? It's the same thing here. Not only are they running on top of IKS, we're using LogDNA to manage the logs and everything, and cross the infrastructure for IKS as well. So we're heavily using it. >> This also highlights, Daniel, the ecosystem dynamic of having when you break down this monolithic type of environments and their sets of services, you benefit because you can tap into a startup, they can tap in to IBM's goodness. It's like somewhat simple Biz Dev deal other than the RevShare component of the sales, but technically, this is what customers want at the endgame is they want the right tool, the right job, the right product. If it comes from a startup, you guys don't have to build it. >> I mean, exactly. Let the experts do it, we'll integrate it. It's a great relationship. And the teams work really well together which is fantastic. >> What do you guys do with other startups? If a startup watches and says, hey, I want to be like LogDNA. I want to plug into IBM's Cloud. I want to be just like them and make all that cash. What do they got to do? What's the model? >> I mean, we're constantly looking at startups and new business opportunities obviously. We do this all the time. But it's got to be the right fit, alright? And that's important. It's got to be the right fit with the technology, it's got to be the right fit as far as culture, and team dynamics of not only my team but the startup's teams and how we're going to work together, and this is why it worked really great with LogDNA. I mean, everything, it just all fit, it all made sense, and it had a good business model behind that as well. So, yes, there's opportunities for others but we have to go through and explore all those. >> So, Norman, wonder if you can share, how's your experience been at the show here? We'd love to hear, you're going to have so many startups here. You got record-setting attendance for the show. What were your expectations coming in? What are the KPIs you're measuring with and how has it met what you thought you were going to get? >> No, it's great, I mean, previous to the last year's KubeCon we had not really done any events. We're a small company, we didn't want to spend the resources, but we came in last year and I think what was refreshing was people would talk to us and we're like, oh, yeah, we're not an open source technology, we're actually a log vendor and we can, and we'll-- (Stu laughing) So what we said was, hey, we'll brush that into an experience, and people were like, oh, wow, this is actually pretty refreshing. I'm not configuring my fluentd system, fluentd to tap into another Elasticsearch. There was just not a lot of that. I think this year expectation was we need the size doubled. We still wanted to get the message out there. We knew we were hot off the presses with the IMB public launch of our service on IBM Cloud. And I think we we're expecting a lot. I mean, we more than doubled what our lead count was and it's been an amazing conference. I mean, I think the energy that you get and the quality of folks that come by, it's like, yeah, everybody's running Kubernetes, they know what they're talking about, and it makes that conversation that much easier for us as well. >> Now you're CUBE alumni now too. It's the booth, look at that. (everyone laughing) Well, guys, thanks for coming on, sharing the insight. Good to see you again. Great commentary, again, having distinguished engineering, and these kinds of conversations really helps the community figure out kind of what's out there, so I appreciate that. And if everything's going to be on Kubernetes, then we should put theCUBE on Kubernetes. With these videos, we'll be on it, we'll be out there. >> Hey, yeah, absolutely, that'd be great. >> TheCUBE covers day three. Breaking it down here. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman. That's a wrap for us here in Seattle. Thanks for watching and look for us next year, 2019. That's a wrap for 2018, Stu, good job. Thanks for coming on, guys, really appreciate it. >> Thanks. >> Thank you. >> Thanks for watching, see you around. (futuristic instrumental music)

>> Narrator: Live From Seattle, Washington it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the cloud-native computing foundation and antiquo system partners. >> Okay welcome back everyone it's live coverage here at theCUBE at KubeCon and CloudNativeCon here at Seattle for 2018 event. 8,000 people, up from 4,000 last year. I'm John Furrier with Stuart Miniman, my cohost. Next guest Daniel Berg, distinguished engineer at IBM Cloud Kubernetes Service. Daniel, great to have you on. >> Thank you. >> Thanks for joining us. Good to see you. I'll say you guys know a lot about Kubernetes. You've been using it for a while. >> Yes very much. >> Blue mix, you guys did a lot of cloud, a lot of open source. What's going on with the service? Take a minute to explain your role, what you guys are doing, how it all fits into the big picture here. >> Yeah yeah yeah so I'm the distinguished engineer over top of the architecture and everything around the Kubernetes Service. I'm backed by a crazy wicked awesome team. Right? They are amazing. They're the real wizards behind the curtain right? I'm the curtain is basically all it is. But we've done a phenomenal amount of work on IKS. We've delivered it. We've delivered some amazing HA capabilities, highly reliable but what's really great about it is the service that we provide to all of our customers? We're actually running all of IBM cloud on it, so all of our services, the Watson service, the cloud dataset base services, our keepertech service, identity management, billing, all of it, it's all running. First of all it's moving to containers and Kubernetes and it's running on our managed service. >> So just to make sure I get it all out there, I know we talked to a lot of other folks at IBM. I want to make sure we table it. You guys are highly contributing to the upstream. >> Daniel: Yes. >> As well as running your workload and other customers' workloads on Kubernetes within the IBM cloud. >> Unmodified right? I mean we're taking upstream and we're packed in and the key thing that we're doing is we're providing it as a managed service with our extensions into it. But yeah we're running, we've hit problems over the last 18, 20 months right? There's lots of problems. >> Take us into people always wonder what happens when this reaches real scale. So what experiences, what can you share with us? >> So when you really start hitting like real scale, real scale being like 500, 1,000, couple thousand nodes, right, then you're hitting real scale there. And we're dealing with tens of thousands of clusters, right? You start hitting different pressure points inside of Kubernetes, things that most customers are not going to hit and they're gnarly problems, right? They're really complicated problems. One of the most recent ones that we hit is just scaling problems with CRDs. Now that we've been promoting heavily CRDs, customized Kubernetes, which is a good thing. Well, it starts to hit another pressure point that you then have to start working through scaling of Kubernetes, scaling of the master, dealing with scheduling problems. Once you start getting into these larger numbers that's when you start hitting these pressure points and yes we are making changes and then we're contributing those back up to the upstream. >> One of the things we've been hearing in the interviews here and obviously in the coverage is that the maturation of Kubernetes, great, check, you guys are pushing these pressure points, which is great cause you're actually using it. What are the key visibility points that you're seeing where value's being created, and two what're some of the key learnings that you guys have had? I mean, so you're starting to see some visibility around where people can have value in the stack. Well, or not stack, but in the open source and create value and then learnings that you guys have had. >> Right, right, right. I mean for us the key value here is first of all providing a certified Kubernetes platform, right? I mean, Kubernetes has matured. It has gotten better. It's very mature. You can run production workloads on it no doubt. We've got many many examples of it so providing a certified managed solution around that where customers can focus on their application and not so much the platform, highly valuable right? Because it's certified, they can code to Kubernetes. We always push our teams both internal and external focus on Kubernetes, focus on building a Kube native experience cause that's going to give you the best portability ability moving whether you're using IBM cloud or another cloud provider right? It's a fully certified platform for that. >> Dan, you know, it's one thing if you're building on that platform but what experience do you have of taking big applications and moving it on there? I remember a year or two ago it seemed like it was sexy to talk about lift and shift and most people understand it's like really you just can't take what you had and take advantage of it. You need to be, it might be part of the journey but I'm sure you've got a lot of experiences there. >> Yeah we've got, I mean, we've seen almost every type of workload now cause a lot of people were asking Well, what kind of workloads can you containerize? Can you move to Kubernetes? Based on what we've seen pretty much all of them can move so and we do see a lot of the whole lifT and shift and just put it on Kubernetes but they really don't get the value and we've seen some really crazy uses of Kubernetes where they're on Kubernetes but they're not really, like what I say Kube native. They're not adhering to the Kubernetes principles and practices and therefore they don't get the full value so they're on Kubernetes and they get some of the okay we're doing some health checking but they don't have the proper probes right? They don't have the proper scheduling hints. They don't have the proper quotas. They don't have the proper limits. So they're not properly using Kubernetes so therefore they don't get the full advantage out of it. So what we're seeing a lot though is that customers do that lift and shift, but ultimately they have to, they have to rewrite a lot of what they're doing. To get the most value, and this is true of cloud and cloud native, ultimately at the end of the day if you truly want to get the value of cloud and cloud native you're going to do a rewrite eventually and that will be full cloud native. You're going to take advantage of the APIs and you're going to follow the best practices and the concepts of the platform. >> Containers give you some luxury to play with workloads that you don't maybe have time to migrate over but this brings up the point of the question that we hear a lot and I want to get your thoughts on this because the world's getting educated very fast on cloud native and rearchitecting, replatforming, whatever word you want to use, reimagining their infrastructure. How do you see multicloud driving the investment or architectural thinking with customers? What're they, what're some of the things that you see that are important for 2019 as people are saying you know what? My IT is transforming, we know that, we're going to be a multicloud world. I've got to make investments. >> You definitely have to make those. >> What are those investments architecturally, how should they lay those out? What're your thoughts? >> So my thought there is ultimately, you've got focus on a standardized platform that you're going to use across those because multicloud it's here. It's here to stay whether it's just on premises and you're doing off premises or you're doing on premises and multiple cloud vendors and that's where everybody's going and it's going to be give it another six, 12 months. That's going to be the practice. That's going to be what everybody does. You're not one cloud provider, you're multiple. So standardization, community, massive. Do you have a community around that? You can't vendor lock in if you're going to be doing portability across all of these cloud providers. Standardization governance around the platform the certification so Kubernetes you have a certified process that you certify every version so you at least know I'm using a vendor that's certified. Right? I have some promise that my application's going to run on that. Now is that as simple as well I picked a certified Kubernetes and therefore I should be able to run my application. Not so simple. >> And operationally, they're running CICD, you got to run that over the top. >> You've got to have a common, yeah, You've got to have a common observability model across all of that, what you're logging, what're you're monitoring, what's your CICD process. You've got to have a common CICD process that's going to go across all of those cloud providers, right, all of your cloud environments. >> Dan, take us inside. How're we doing with security? It's one of those sort of choke points. Go back to containers when they first started through to Kubernetes. Are we doing well on security now and where do we need to go? >> Are we doing well on it? Yes we are. I think we're doing extremely well on security. Do we have room for improvement? Absolutely everybody does. I've just spent the last eight months doing compliance and compliance work. That's not necessarily security but it dips into it quite often right? Security is a central focus. Anybody doing public cloud, especially providers, we're highly focused on security and you've got to secure your platforms. I think with Kubernetes and providing first of all proper isolation and customers need to understand what levels of isolation am I getting? What levels of sharing am I getting? Are those well documented and I understand what my providers providing me. But the community's improving. Things that we're seeing around like Kubernetes and what they're doing with secrets and proper encryption, encryption, notary with the image repositories and everything. All that plays into providing a more secure platform so we're getting there, things are getting better. >> Well there was a recent vulnerability that just got patched rather fast. >> Daniel: There was. >> It seemed like it moved really quick. What do we learn from that? >> Well we've learned that Kubernetes itself is not perfect, right? Actually I would be a little bit concerned if we didn't find a security hole because then that means there's not enough adoption, where we just haven't found the problems. Yes we found a security hole. The thing is the community addressed it, communicated it, and all of the vendors provided a patch very quickly and many of them like with IKS we rolled out the patch to all of our clusters, all of our customers, they didn't have to do anything and I believe Google did the same thing so these are things that the community is improving, we're maturing and we're handling those security problems. >> Dan, talk about the flexibility that Kubernetes provides. Certainly you mentioned earlier the value that can be extracted if you do it properly. Some people like to roll their own Kubernetes or they want the managed service because it streamlines things a bit faster. When do I want management? When do I want to roll my own? Is there kind of a feel? Is it more of a staffing thing? Is it more scale? Is it more application, like financial services might want to roll their own? We're starting to maybe see a different industry. What's your take on this? >> Well obviously I'm going to be super biased on this. But my belief there is that I mean obviously if you're going to be doing on premises and you need a lot of flexibility. You need flexibility of the kernel you may need to roll your own right? Because at that point you can control and drive a lot of the flexibility in there, understanding that you take on the responsibility of deploying and managing and updating your platform, which means generally that's an investment you're going to make that takes away from your critical investment of your developers on your business so personally I would say first and foremost... >> It's a big investment. >> It's a massive investment. I mean look at what the vendor, look at IKS. I've got a large team. They live and breathe Kubernetes. Live and breathe every single release, test it, validate it, roll updates. We're experts at updating Kubernetes without any down time. That's a massive investment. Let the experts do it. Focus on your business. >> John: And that's where the manage piece shines. >> That's where the mange piece absolutely shines. >> Okay so the question about automation comes up. I want to get your thoughts on the future state of Kubernetes because you know we go down the cloud native devops model. We want to automate away things. >> Daniel: Yes. >> Kubernetes is that some differentiation but I don't want to manage clusters. I don't want to manage it. I want it automated. >> Daniel: Yeah. >> So is it automating faster? Is it going to be automated? What's your take on the automation component? When and where and how? >> Well, I mean through the manage services I mean it's cloud native. It's all API driven, CLIs. You've got one command and you're scaling up a cluster. You get a cluster with one command, you can go across multiple zones with one command. Your cluster needs to be updated you call one command and you go home. >> John: That sounds automated to me. >> I mean that's fully and that's the only way that we can scale that. We're talking about thousands of updates on a daily basis. We're talking about tens of thousands of clusters fully automated. >> A lot of people have been talking the past couple of weeks around this notion of well all containers might have security boundary issues. Let's put a VM around it maybe stay for is it maybe just more of a fix? Cause why do I want to have a VM or is it better to just keep native core? Is that real conversation or is that fud? >> I mean it is a real conversation because people are starting to understand what are the proper isolation levels with my cluster. My personal belief around that is you really only need that level of isolation, those mini VMs, around your containers. Running a single container in a single VM seems overkill to me. However if you're running a multitenant cluster with untrusted content you better be taking extra precautions. First and foremost I would say don't do it because you're adding risk, right? But if you're going to do it yes, you might start looking at those types but if you're running a cluster in its an isolated cluster with full isolation levels all the way down to the hardware in a trusted environment, trust being it's your organization, it's your code. I think it's overkill then. >> Future of Kubernetes what happens next? People are hot on this. You've got service meshes, a lot of other goodness. People are really trying to stay with the pace, a lot of change and again a lot of education. But it's not a stack like I hear words like Kubernetes stack and the CNCM has a stack. So it's not necessarily a stack per se. >> Right it's not. >> Clarify the linguistic language around what we're talking about here. What's a stack? What's not a stack? It's all services. >> Look at it this way. So Kubernetes has done a phenomenal job as a project in the community to state exactly what it's trying to achieve, right? It is a platform. It is platform for running cloud native applications. That is what it is and it allows vendors to build on top of it. It allows customers to build on it and it's not trying to grow larger than that. It's just trying to improve overall that platform and that's what's fantastic about Kubernetes because that allows us and when you see the stack it's really cloud native. What pieces am I going to add to that awesome platform to make my life even better? Knative, Istio, a service measure. I'm going to put that on because I'm evolving, I'm doing more microservices. I'm going to build that on top of it. Inside of IBM we did cloud foundry enterprise environment, CFEE, cloud foundry on Kubernetes. Why not, right? It's a perfect combination. It's just going up the level and it's providing more usability, better different prescriptive uses of Kubernetes but Kubernetes is the platform. >> When I think about the composability of services it's not a stack. It's lego blocks. >> Daniel: Yeah it's pieces. I'm using different pieces here, there, everywhere. >> All right well Daniel thanks for coming on, sharing great insight. Congratulations on your success running major workloads within IBM for you guys and the customers. Again just the beginning, Kubernetes the beginning. Congratulations. Here inside the Cube we're breaking down all the action. Three days of live coverage. We're at day one at KubeCon and CloudNativeCon. We'll be right back with more coverage after this short break.