>>The cube presents, Dell technologies world brought to you by Dell. >>Welcome back to Dell tech world 2022. This is the cube alive. My name is Dave Volante. We're here with our wall to wall coverage. This is day two. We actually started last night. Uh, the, the cube after dark John furry is here. Lisa Martin, Dave Nicholson. We're gonna talk about apex. The business value of apex flex on demand. Darren fedora is here. He's the senior vice president of Dell financial services, and we're joined by a customer and a partner Jud Barron is R and D infrastructure architect at Silicon labs. And Steve end is the regional VP of copy center comp computer center. I say that like I'm from Boston guys. Welcome to the queue. >>Thank you, >>Darren, take us through what's going on with, with apex, you got custom solutions, you know, people are gonna ask, is this just a financial gimick? What is this? >>No gimmicks, no gimmicks, Dave. So I think when we think about technology, historically customers purchased, they bought and they owned and they may have financed it and paid over time, but it was really an ownership model, especially in infrastructure and apex is about subscription. So think about Dell apex, as you can either buy, or you can subscribe to your technology and under apex subscription, we have options for custom based solutions or an outcome base. And I know today we're gonna talk about flex on demand and, and custom based solutions. So it's a high level pay for what you use when you use it with a high level of choice and flexibility. All >>Right, Steve, I'm gonna ask you to play little >>Co-host all right. I like >>This. Okay. So add some color color commentary, Jud, tell us a little bit about, uh, Silicon labs. I'm really interested in what your requirements were, your challenges and kinda why you landed on, on apex. Sure. >>Uh, Silicon labs is a semiconductor company were headquartered in Austin, 10 Xs, uh, just under a billion dollars a year right now. And, uh, at any ed shop or, uh, that, that people who are doing electronic design automation, that's not just in the semiconductor industry, but we have these HPC farms who are running, you know, millions of jobs a day. And the, a balance that you have to strike when you're doing capacity planning in one of these environments is we have these things called tape outs, and that's where we're finishing a project and there's a much higher volume of jobs that we have to run and you have to decide, do we buy for peak or do we, you know, come under that some amount and say, oh, we're gonna buy 80% of what we think >>As an over, over, over under, right. Do we over buy for peak normally, right, correct. Right >>Hard. One is geo Overy the under buy. It's always a hard decision. >>There's a tradeoff. Right? And, and so the, the challenge there is that you'll end up kind of linking the time and potentially miss a tape out window. And there's costs associated with that because you work with the Foundry and you kind of schedule based off that tape out when you're gonna deliver the photo mask to them. So anyway, the point is we in the past using a traditional like camp X, we're gonna buy a bunch of servers. We, we tend to undershoot whatever our peaks are. Cause we may have a peak every couple of months during, you know, these tape outs. Uh, but you know, sometimes tape outs, slip. And so one slips two months, another one comes in a little bit early and now you have multiple tape outs in the same months. And what was gonna be a, a small, uh, difference in from peak to what you actually purchased ends up being a big peak. And, uh, the thing that was interesting to us about flex on demand is the ability to have a commit rate that, you know, the customer can work with Dell financial services to figure out is that 80% is at 60% whatever. And they give us additional servers that we pay just when we're using them. Now I'm somewhat oversimplifying the process. Um, but we're, we gotta talk about that, >>But, but the point is, if I understand it correctly, that infrastructure was dominoing the, the time to tape out in a negative way, and you you've been able to address that more cost effectively. >>It, it can, it, it has on occasion. And so this, this basically gives us a way to lever to pull, to say, well, we can spend some additional OPEX this month and open up this additional capacity. So it's not like bursting to the cloud. Exactly. Uh, because I mean, you have to have the equipment in your data center already for you to be able to use it. But, um, it's under a traditional acquisition model. It's, it's just not a, a, a thing that was available to us before and looking at leasing or other types of, uh, you know, financing was wasn't really attractive previously, but the flex on demand model, when we first heard about it, we're like, that's very interesting. Tell me more. And we ended up using it in, in Austin, and then we built a whole data center in Asia and did the whole thing on flex on demand and >>Got it. Okay, Steve, uh, talk a little bit about your role what's going on at, at computer center and you know, why apex give us the background? Yeah. >>Um, computer center is a, one of the largest global VAs on the planet, right? Um, we, we have a lot of global and international reach, but at the end of the day, it's about one on one customer of relationships. Um, talking to them, understanding what their challenges are. And we've had a multiyear relationship with Jud. I've known you for a long time. And, and, um, typically that relationship, or initially that relationship was about collaborating, working hand in hand, kind of figure out what the solutions were that best fit their environment to solve their issues they need. And it was typically a procurement, a, a purchase based relationship and, and it worked well for a long time, but it, when Jud posed the challenge to us about kind of more pay as you go, uh, uh, subscription based modeling for, for how he want to do acquire in the future. >>Um, we just, we huddle with the Dell team collectively, um, and, and talked about what we could offer and how we could solve the problem. Uh, apex is a really nice brand today, but this was two and a half years ago, Uhhuh. Okay. So it was a little, we were a little early on on putting it together. I feel good that we were able to, to put that type of solution together for Jud and it's, and it's working today, working wonderful today. And it was good for it's good for the whenever it's good for the customer, the manufacturer and the partner altogether. It's a wonderful solution. >>So you took a little risk, but it worked out and you helped. >>Yeah, that was probably the infancy as we were growing our, as a service, think of this, you know, there's a, a lot of big words out there, Dave, right? As a service utility cloud, it doesn't matter what it is super cloud it's super cloud. It doesn't really matter. Super. This is really Jud was talking about a really important element, which is around flexibility choice. There's uncertainty oftentimes in a, in an environment, but they want to control. They still want have a level of control and leveraging partnerships, being able to deliver flexibility and choice. Don't worry about the words. Don't worry about cloud utility as a service we end up solving the customer need, right? And when we talk about flex on demand, I'll give you a little bit deeper into flex on demand. So when we think about flex on demand, it really is about understanding the customer needs and our capability and Jed reference this, determining what a baseline is. So if you think about your own utility bill, right, you, you go home and even if you're on vacation for a month, I'm sure you went on vacation for a month right. Month at a time. If I ever. >>Yeah, >>I know, but if you leave you your utility bill, even if you don't turn on a light, you still get a utility bill, it's your baseline. So we, we determine a baseline with our customers, with computer center, to understand in your environment, you're gonna use this minimum amount and that becomes your baseline. And that baseline can go as low as 25%. And up to 80% in a environment, it usually is typically in this 70, 80%. And then we determine what is gonna be optimal based on that 25 or above we charge based on the usage on a day to day basis, average by a month. And if you go up one month during your peak, you get charged at that peak. If you then a couple months are lower, then you're gonna pay only for the usage. And so for a customer that's growing has variability or seasonality. >>Um, this is a great model cuz they can still control their environment either within their own domain or um, in a colo. They also have the capability to pick anything within the Dell ISG catalog, any product, configure it to meet their environment, be able to work with a trusted partner like computer center. That it's a solution based on a partner relationship and delivers choice and flexibility on the catalog of anything Dell sells within your control of how you can configure it. So it gives this ability to say, instead of buying and instead of paying a predictable payment, a I E a financing I'm gonna pay for use. Yeah. If I turn on my light switch more or if it's during the summer in Texas where I am the ACS a lot higher. So your utilities go up and if you are a much lower because you're on vacation in Hawaii, maybe you've been in vacation in Hawaii for a month, you're gonna have a much lower and you're gonna hit your baseline. Right. So it gives flexibility choice and it gives the control back to the customer. >>Okay. So the whole ISD portfolio. So you're like the tip of the spear for future apex, right? >>We, we, we absolutely are the tip and that's why, you know, Steve referenced a couple years ago as we were still in our infancy, growing, listening to our customers, listening to our partners, we've evolved to become a more robust program, um, 35 countries today. So we can cover 35 countries over the globe, all ISG you products that are sold with a high level of flexibility and it, and it's Jud and feedback over time that we've continued to evolve this program. Mm-hmm >>So Jud you, if I understood correctly, the business impact to you was gonna better predict predictability. You didn't have to over buy or undery and take all that risk. Is that right? You maybe could quantify. Did you ever quantify that? What can you tell us about the, the business impact? Yeah, >>Sure. So, I mean, traditionally we will, uh, base our capacity demands on, uh, complex calculation that effectively just boils down to number of engineers, like head count, uh, and you know, kind of personas within that. And we figure out, okay, well how many compute do we need? And then we say, okay, well how many tape outs are we doing? And when are those tape outs gonna land? And try to figure out which months are gonna be the hot months and the design teams have to kind of vary their tape out schedules so that they don't pile up all into like July or something. And then there's not enough compute capacity. So with, with something like flex on and where I can turn additional capacity on in our HBC farm, it, you know, we just go in and make some changes to the LSF configuration and say, Hey, you know, now you've got these extra nodes available. >>We don't really have to worry about that as much. Uh, in fact, last year we, we ended up with one month where for us, it was unusual. We had five tape outs, uh, at all land within two weeks of one and a other. And they all finished, which in previous years before we had deployed that that would not have been the outcome things we would've had multiple, uh, tape outs delayed. And you know, that that's a seven figure impact for each one of those commits that we miss with the foundries. So it it's a big deal. >>Yeah. That's real dollars. And >>It is. And you know what else, this, as, as Joe's going through this, we all know their supply chain chain constraints, right? And this solves a lot of supply constraints because Joe, if you would be purchasing today, you'd be buying, you're looking at had, and you're actually having to purchase today where if you go into an apex flex on demand, you don't have that full commitment of having to purchase, but you can get ahead of the supply chain. So you can be looking six months in advance, you can be doing capacity planning and I'm Jed. I'm sure you're doing that leveraging. Like what's my future and not be worried about, I have this huge burden upfront. >>Yeah. And I mean, we have two levers right now. One is we have this extra capacity there. I can, you know, pick up the phone and, and call our Dell rep and say, Hey, I'm gonna modify my commit rate. And so now that's, you know, the new baseline I can use all day every day. Uh, and, and, you know, we still have some burstability and then separately, we can say, we want to expand the contract or, or, or, you know, basically acquire more hardware for additional burst or additional commit. Both of those things are, are options. We only had the, we had to go buy it and we need to know when we have to have it available. So you kind of back into this ordering schedule for, uh, you know, like a traditional CapEx purchase. >>So Steve, obviously Silicon labs is, is leaning again. Are you seeing any other patterns in your customer base, uh, where this is being applied? What can you share >>With us there? Yeah, it's it, I believe this is a fairly horizontal solution. Any customer can really utilize it. I mean, traditionally people would buy for two and three years worth of capacity and slowly consume it over time, but you paid up front. Right. That's how it, that's kind of how it worked. Cause I didn't want to go back to the well year after year after year. Right. So, um, you know, and I, and I think, I think if anything, the, the, the cloud, the hyperscalers has, uh, taught the world, some things taught the industry. Some things, you know, in a, in a perfect world customers like to consume and pay for what they use, you know, and in the increments that they use it as much as possible as closely aligned to that as they could get. And what I see, what I see in this, you know, cuz I, I kind of put solu in my role, I'm putting solutions and customers and bringing those together other right. And, and complimenting that with services of our own. Right. But, but what I see over time that, that almost all the manufacturers and Dells does a wonderful job, but almost all the manufacturers will be delivering technology on a subscription basis. So the more I learn, the more I know, the more I understand about how to deliver those and provide those to customers is better off we are >>Because it aligns with business value. And that's what you're seeing Jud correct. >>Steve made an interesting comment in there. Uh, you know, he was talking about the cloud and for us, there's always pressure to say, Hey, you know, can we burst in the cloud? And for Edda workloads, every time we look at this, it's a data problem. It, it, it's not a computing problem for us. EA workloads tend to generate a lot of data and you know, there's a, there are a lot of tools, uh, you know, there's just a bunch of stuff that you have to have available to run those jobs. And so you have to look at that very carefully. The company that I work for Silicon labs has been around for a long time and we have a lot of development effort. That's been put into automating and simplifying things for our design engineering and trying to, you know, manipulate that and make it to where we can burst just certain jobs out to the cloud efficiently and cost effectively. Hasn't really resonated for us. But the flex on demand thing gave a us the ability to kind of achieve some of that burst ability. I mean, not to the same level of scale of course, but you know, we, we can do that at, you know, our own speed in our own data centers with our own data. And we don't have to worry about trying to, you know, peel an onion and put something new together, make it cloud friendly. It's >>Substantially similar. We gotta go. But to Aaron bring us home. >>Yeah. Hey, I think when we think about Dell, it's about listening to our customers and our partners. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, which we continue to do. We continue to evolve our products and, and apex is around choice and flexibility in delivering to customers an option to pay for what they use. It's a great solution. Appreciate the time guys. >>Great conversation. Thanks so much for coming on the cube. All right. Thank you. Good luck. All right. And thank you for watching. This is Dave VoLTE for the cube. We've been back with more wall to wall coverage. John furry, you'll be back Lisa Martin and Dave Nicholson. You're watching the queue >>And.

>> From Santa Clara, in the heart of Silicon Valley it's theCUBE, covering the Churchills, 2019. Brought to you by SiliconANGLE Media. >> Hey, welcome back everybody. Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're in Santa Clara, California at the Churchills. It's the ninth annual awards banquet put on by the Churchills Club, and this year is all about leadership. We're excited to be joined by our next guest who knows a little bit about leadership. He's Carl Guardino, the president and CEO of the Silicon Valley Leadership Group. Carl, great to see you. >> Great to see you, too, Jeff. >> So what is the Silicon Valley Leadership Group all about? >> The Silicon Valley Leadership Group is an association of about 360, primarily innovation economy employers that want to make a positive, proactive difference here in the region, as well as in our state and across the United States. >> What are some of the hot topics that are on top of the plate right now? Because there is a lot of craziness kind of going on here in Silicon Valley. >> There is. But what we try to do is impact those issues that are as important to families in their living rooms as they are to CEOs in their board rooms. And here in the bay area, we call those THEE issues. An acronym, T-H-E-E. The T, traffic; H, housing affordability; E, education; and the fourth E, the economy. And we try to bring together diverse points of view for those areas that unite us, where we can actually solve some of those challenges. >> Right, and those are big, big challenges. And you work both with public as well as private groups to try to bring them together to make movement on those things. >> We're a bridge. And the first thing about a bridge is that you try to bring folks together to cross the bridge and work together. The second most important thing about a bridge is that you build them, you don't burn them down. And that's the role that we try to play with 360 highly engaged CEOs and c-suite officers. >> And it's only appropriate, because tonight you'll be sitting down in a conversation with the mayor of San Jose, Sam Liccardo, to kind of get into some of these issues. San Jose seems to be on a roll right now, a positive roll. A lot of positive news coming out of San Jose. >> Yes, and that always starts with leadership rather than luck. San Jose mayor Sam Liccardo, 10th largest city in the United States, has been able to strike that balance of being pro-innovation economy, while also caring deeply about his citizens, the residents of San Jose, 1,053,000, and how we make sure that we have a strong and vibrant economy, but also a great quality of life. >> Right. So how do you even begin to - we'll start with traffic. The T in the THEE. To address that issue, it's so multifaceted, right, it's so tied to jobs, it's tied to housing, it's tied to the growth of the economy, you know, unfortunately freeways are slow to build, public transportation's expensive, but we continue to see growth there. How do you kind of eat that elephant, one bite at a time, with something like traffic? >> Well the role of the leadership group is, again, by bringing people together to solve complex problems in a democracy with winning solutions. So we'd rather win than whine. And when it comes to traffic, one of our core competencies is actually to lead and run ballot initiatives to fund transportation improvements throughout the region and the state. In fact, in the last 30 years alone, I've had the pleasure of going on loan from the leadership group to run ballot campaigns for transportation improvements that have totaled 30 billion dollars in revenue through those measures, approved by voters to reach into our own wallets, rather than our neighbors, to build improvements that, this Christmas, in time to go into your stocking, we'll be bringing BART to San Jose, and working on the electrification of Caltrain, linking transit and better road improvements, making it better for all of us trying to travel throughout this region. >> Right. Good, we need it. >> We do. >> And on the housing, you know, because the housing is also very closely tied to traffic, and we see that the old days of single-family homes on big pieces of dirt, those are going away. They just can't support it in higher density areas like San Fransisco, San Jose, to bring those jobs next to that. So we're seeing a huge transformation in the housing space as well. >> And we need a huge transformation, both in transportation and in housing. And it's really the flip side to the same coin. T, for tails, or transportation; H, for head, or housing. And you have to make sure that you keep those linked. In fact, one of our initiatives right now is to work with all six, fixed rail transit operators throughout the nine bay area counties. What are the current and future uses of those half miles around every fixed rail transit stop that you have? How do we maximize those uses? Here's a great example. What Google wants to do in downtown San Jose, at the Diridon SAP station, is only because of the Silicon Valley Leadership Group's work to bring BART to that station, electrify Caltrain, light rail is there, Amtrak, ACE, et cetera, and they want to have 20 to 25 thousand future Google employees there within the next 10 to 12 years. Why? Because it is a sustainable location that doesn't rely on you and I slogging through traffic in our single-occupant cars. >> Right. I can't wait to see what you guys do to El Camino. That's the next one that's going to - as somebody once said in one of these traffic things, it's just a bunch of old retail stores with empty parking lots, just placed by Microsoft. Or excuse me, by Amazon. So I think we'll see a big transformation with housing and jobs, you know, along that quarter, which happens to parallel the Caltrain, and is near and dear to my heart. So a lot of good opportunities I think to make improvements. >> Jeff, there is. And as hard as transportation and traffic solutions are to put into place, housing is even tougher. And while Bay Area residents think housing is the bigger crisis, the solutions are tougher to come about, because the community isn't as united on those solutions. So the role that a group of employers like ours play, is how do we bring people together around solutions that make sure that we build homes, that are good for everyone in our society. >> Well Carl, I like your positive attitude, a lot of winning and no whining, so I wish you nothing but success. And we'll be watching. >> Thank you, Jeff. >> You're welcome. He's Carl, I'm Jeff, you're watching theCUBE. We're at the Churchills in Santa Clara, California. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time.

(spirited music) >> Hey, welcome back everybody. Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We are in the Palo Alto Studios for a CUBE Conversation. Part of our Western Digital Data Makes Possible Series, really looking at a lot of cool applications. At the end of the day, data's underneath everything. There's infrastructure and storage that's holding that, but it's much more exciting to talk about the applications. We're excited to have somebody who's kind of on the cutting edge of a next chapter of something you're probably familiar with. He's Steven Webster, and he is the founder and CEO of Asensei. Steven, great to see you. >> Likewise, likewise. >> So, you guys are taking, I think everyone's familiar with Fitbits, as probably one of the earliest iterations of a biometric feedback, for getting more steps. At the end of the day, get more steps. And you guys are really taking it to the next level, which is, I think you call it connected coaching, so I wondered if you could give everyone a quick overview, and then we'll dig into it a little bit. >> Yeah, I think we're all very familiar now with connected fitness in hindsight, as a category that appeared and emerged, as, like you say, first it was activity trackers. We saw those trackers primarily move into smartwatches, and the category's got life in it, life in it left. I see companies like Flywheel and Peloton, we all know Peloton now. >> [Jeff] Right. >> We're starting to make the fitness equipment itself, the treadmill, the bike, connected. So, there's plenty of growth in that category. But our view is that tracking isn't teaching, and counting and cheering isn't coaching. And so we see this opportunity for this new category that's emerging alongside connected fitness, and that's what we call connected coaching. >> Connected coaching. So the biggest word, obviously, instead of fitness tracker, to the connected coaching, is coaching. >> Yeah. >> So, you guys really think that the coaching piece of it is core. And are you targeting high-end athletes, or is this for the person that just wants to take a step up from their fitness tracker? Where in the coaching spectrum are you guys targeting? >> I saw your shoe dog, Phil Knight, founder of Nike, a book on the shelf behind you there, and his co-founder, Bill Bowerman, has a great quote that's immortalized in Nike offices and stores around the world: "If you have a body, you're an athlete." So, that's how we think about our audience. Our customer base is anyone that wants to unlock their athletic potential. I think if you look at elite sports, and elite athletes, and Olympic athletes, they've had access to this kind of technology going back to the Sydney Olympics, so we're really trying to consumerize that technology and make it available to the people that want to be those athletes, but aren't those athletes yet. You might call it the weekend warrior, or just the committed athlete, that would identify, identify themselves according to a sport that they play. >> So, there's different parts of coaching, right? One, is kind of knowing the techniques, so that you've got the best practices by which to try to practice. >> [Steven] Yep. >> And then there's actually coaching to those techniques, so people practice, right? Practice doesn't make perfect. It's perfect practice that makes perfect. >> [Steven] You stole our line, which we stole from someone else. >> So, what are you doing? How do you observe the athlete? How do you communicate with the athlete? How do you make course corrections to the athlete to move it from simply tracking to coaching? >> [Steven] I mean, it starts with, you have to see everything and miss nothing. So, you need to have eyes on the athlete, and there's really two ways we think you can do that. One is, you're using cameras and computer vision. I think most of us are familiar with technologies like Microsoft Connect, where an external camera can allow you to see the skeleton and the biomechanics of the athlete. And that's a big thing for us. We talk about the from to being from just measuring biometrics: how's your heart rate, how much exertion are you making, how much power are you laying down. We need to move from biometrics to biomechanics, and that means looking at technique, and posture, and movement, and timing. So, we're all familiar with cameras, but we think the more important innovation is the emergence of smart clothing, or smart apparel, and the ability to take sensors that would have been discrete, hard components, and infuse those sensors into smart apparel. We've actually created a reference design for a motion capture sensor, and a network of those sensors infused in your apparel allows us to recover your skeleton, but as easily as pulling on a shirt or shorts. >> [Jeff] So you've actually come up with a reference design. So, obviously, begs a question: you're not working with any one particular apparel manufacturer. You really want to come up with a standard and publish the standard by which anyone could really define, capture, and record body movements, and to convert those movements from the clothing into a model. >> No, that's exactly it. We have no desire to be in the apparel industry. We have no desire to unseat Nike, Adidas, or Under Armour. We're actually licensing our technology royalty-free. We just want to accelerate the adoption of smart apparel. And I think the thing about smart apparel is, no one's going to walk into Niketown and say, "Where's the smart apparel department? "I don't want dumb apparel anymore." There needs to be a compelling reason to buy digitally enhanced apparel, and we think one of the most compelling reasons to buy that is so that we can be coached in the sport of our choice. >> [Jeff] So, then you're starting out with rowing, I believe, is your first sport, right? >> [Steven] That's correct, yeah. >> And so the other really important piece of it, is if people don't have smart apparel, or the smart apparel's not there yet, or maybe when they have smart apparel, there's a lot of opportunities to bring in other data sources beyond just that single set. >> [Steven] And that's absolutely key. When I think about biomechanics, that's what goes in, but there's also what comes out. Good form isn't just aesthetic. Good form is in any given sport. Good form and good technique is about organizing yourself so that you perform most efficiently and perform most effectively. Yeah, so you corrected a point in that we've chosen rowing as one of the sports. Rowing is all about technique. It's all about posture. It's all about form. If you've got two rowers who, essentially, have the same strength, the same cardiovascular capability, the one with the best technique will make the boat move faster. But for the sport of rowing, we also get a tremendous amount of telemetry coming off the rowing machine itself. A force curve weakened on every single pull of that handle. We can see how you're laying down that force, and we can read those force curves. We can look at them and tell things like, are you using your legs enough? Are you opening your back too late or too early? Are you dominant on your arms, where you shouldn't be? Is your technique breaking down at higher stroke rates, but is good at lower stroke rates? So it's a good place for us to start. We can take all of that knowledge and information and coach the athlete. And then when we get down to more marginal gains, we can start to look at their posture and form through that technology like smart apparel. >> There's the understanding what they're doing, and understanding the effort relative to best practices, but there's also, within their journey. Maybe today, they're working on cardio, and tomorrow, they're working on form. The next day, they're working on sprints. So the actual best practices in coaching a sport or particular activity, how are you addressing that? How are you bringing in that expertise beyond just the biometric information? >> [Steven] So yeah, we don't think technology is replacing coaches. We just think that coaches that use technology will replace coaches that don't. It's not an algorithm that's trying to coach you. We're taking the knowledge and the expertise of world-class coaches in the sport, that athletes want to follow, and we're taking that coaching, and essentially, think of it as putting it into a learning management system. And then for any given athlete, Just think of it the way a coach coaches. If you walked into a rowing club, I don't know if you've ever rowed before or not, but a coach will look at you, they'll sit you on a rowing machine or sit you on a boat, and just look at you and decide, what's the one next thing that I'm going to teach you that's going to make you better? And really, that's the art of coaching right there. It's looking for that next improvement, that next marginal gain. It's not just about being able to look at the athlete, but then decide where's the improvement that we want to coach the athlete? And then the whole sports psychology of, how do you coach his improvements? >> Because there's the whole hammer versus carrot. That's another thing. You need to learn how the individual athlete responds, what types of things do they respond better to? Do they like to get yelled? Do they like to be encouraged? Did they like it at the beginning? Did they like it at the end? So, do you guys incorporate some of these softer coaching techniques into the application? >> Our team have all coached sport at university-level typically. We care a lot and we think a lot about the role of the coach. The coach's job is to attach technique to the athlete's body. It's to take what's in your head and what you've seen done before, and give that to the athlete, so absolutely, we're thinking about how do you establish the correct coaching cues. How do you positively reinforce, not just negatively reinforce? Is that person a kinesthetic learner, where they need to feel how to do it correctly? Are they a more visual learner, where they respond better to metaphor? Now, one of the really interesting things with a digital coach is the more people we teach, the better we can get at teaching, because we can start to use some of the techniques of enlarged datasets, and looking at what's working and what's not working. In fact, it's the same technology we would use in marketing or advertising, to segment an audience, and target content. >> Right. >> [Steven] We can take that same technology and apply it how we think about coaching sports. >> So is your initial target to help active coaches that are looking for an edge? Or are you trying to go for the weakend warrior, if you will? Where's your initial market? >> For rowing, we've actually zeroed in on three athletes, where we have a point of view that Asensei can be of help. I'll tell you who the three are. First, is the high school athlete who wants to go to college and get recruited. So, we're selling to the parent as much as we're selling to the student. >> [Jeff] That's an easy one. Just show up and be tall. >> Well, show up, be tall, but also what's your 2k time? How fast can you row 2,000 meters? That's a pretty important benchmark. So for that high school athlete, that's a very specific audience where we're bringing very specific coaches. In fact, the coach that we're launching with to that market, his story is one of, high school to college to national team, and he just came back from the Olympics in Rio. The second athlete that we're looking at is the person who never wants to go on the water, but likes that indoor rowing machine, so it's that CrossFit athlete or it's an indoor rower. And again, we have a very specific coach who coaches indoor rowing. And then the third target customer is-- >> What's that person's motivation, just to get a better time? >> Interesting, in that community, there's a lot of competitiveness, so yeah, it's about I want to get good at this, I want to get better at this. Maybe enter local competitions, either inside your gym or your box. This weekend, in Boston, we have just had one of the largest indoor world, it was the World Indoor Rowing Championships, the C.R.A.S.H B's. There's these huge indoor rowing competitions, so that's a very competitive athlete. And then finally we have, what would be the master's rower or the person for whom rowing is. There's lots of people who don't identify themselves as a rower, but they'll get on a rowing machine two or three times a week, whether it's in their gym or whether it's at home. Your focus is strength, conditioning, working out, but staying injury-free, and just fun and fitness. I think Palaton validated the existence of that market, and we see a lot of people wanting to do that with a rowing machine, and not with a bike. >> I think most of these people will or will not have access to a primary coach, and this augments it, or does this become their primary coach based on where they are in their athletic life? >> [Steven] I think it's both, and certainly, and certainly, we're able to support both. I think when you're that high school rower that wants to make college, you're probably a member of either your school rowing crew or you're a member of a club, but you spend a tremendous amount of time on an erg, the indoor rowing machine, and your practice is unsupervised. Even though you know what you should be doing, there's nobody there in that moment watching you log those 10,000 meters. One of our advisors is, actually, a two-times Olympic world medalist from team Great Britain, Helen Glover. And Helen, I have a great quote from Helen, where she calculated for the Rio Olympics, in the final of the Rio Olympics, every stroke she took in the final, she'd taken 16,000 strokes in practice, which talks to the importance of the quality of that practice, and making sure it's supervised. >> The bigger take on the old 10,000 reps, right? 16,000 per stroke. >> Right? >> Kind of looking forward, right, what were some of the biggest challenges you had to overcome? And then, as you looked forward, right, since the beginning, were ubiquitous, and there's 3D goggles, and there'll be outside-in centers for that whole world. How do you see this world evolving in the immediate short-term for you guys to have success, and then, just down the road a year or two? >> That's a really good question. I think in the short-term, I think it's incumbent on us to just stay really focused in a single community, and get that product right for them. It's more about introducing people to the idea. This is a category creation exercise, so we need to go through that adoption curve of find the early adopters, find the early majority, and before we take that technology anywhere towards our mass market, we need to nail the experience for that early majority. And we think that it's largely going to be in the sport of rowing or with rowers. The cross participation studies in rowing are pretty strong for other sports. Typically, somewhere between 60-80% of rowers weight lift, bike, run, and take part in yoga, whether yoga for mobility and flexibility. There's immediately adjacent markets available to us where the rowers are already in those markets. We're going to stick there for awhile, and really just nail the experience down. >> And is it a big reach to go from tracking to coaching? I mean, these people are all super data focused, right? The beauty of rowing, as you mentioned, it's all about your 2k period. It's one single metric. And they're running, and they're biking, and they're doing all kinds of data-based things, but you're trying to get them to think really more on terms of the coaching versus just the tracking. Has that been hard for them to accept? Do you have any kind of feel for the adoption or the other thing, I would imagine, I spent all this money for these expensive clothing. Is this a killer app that I can now justify having? >> Right, right, right. >> Maybe fancier connected clothes, rather than just simply tracking my time? >> I mean, I think, talking about pricing in the first instance. What we're finding with consumers that we've been testing with, is if you can compare the price of a shirt to the price of shirt without sensors, it's really the wrong value proposition. The question we ask is, How much money are you spending on your CrossFit box membership or your Equinox gym membership? The cost of a personal trainer is easily upwards of $75-100 for an hour. Now, we can give you 24/7 access to that personal coaching. You'll pay the same in a year as you would pay in an hour for coaching. I think for price, it's someone who's already thinking about paying for personal coaching and personal training, that's really where the pricing market is. >> That's interesting, we see that time and time again. We did an interview with Knightscope, and they have security robots, and basically, it's the same thing. They're priced comparisons was the hourly rate for a human counterpart, or we can give it to you for a much less hourly rate. And now, you don't just get it for an hour, you get it for as long as you want to use it. Well, it's exciting times. You guys in the market in terms of when you're going G80? Have a feel for-- >> Any minute now. >> Any minute now? >> We have people using the product, giving us feedback. My phone's switched off. That's the quietest it's been for awhile. But we have people using the product right now, giving us feedback on the product. We're really excited. One in three people, when we ask, the metric that matters for us is net promoter score. How likely would someone recommend asensei to someone else? One in three athletes are giving us a 10 out of 10, so we feel really good about the experience. Now, we're just focused on making sure we have enough content in place from our coaches. General availability is anytime soon. >> [Jeff] Good. Very exciting. >> Yeah, we're excited. >> Thanks for taking a few minutes of your day, and I actually know some rowers, so we'll have to look into the application. >> Right, introduce us. Good stuff. >> He's Steven Webster, I'm Jeff Frick. You're watching theCUBE. We're having a CUBE Conversation in our Palo Alto Studios. Thanks for watching. (bright music)

>> Hey, welcome back everybody, Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're having a Cube conversation in our Palo Alto studio, the conference season hasn't got to full swing yet, so we can have a little bit more relaxed atmosphere here in the studio and we're really excited, as part of our continuing coverage for the Data Makes Possible sponsored by Western Digital, looking at cool applications, really the impact of data and analytics, ultimately it gets stored usually on a Western Digital hard drive some place, and this is a great segment. Who doesn't like talking about sports, and football, and advanced analytics? And we're really excited, I have John Pollard here, he is the VP of Business Development for Zebra Sports, John, great to see you. >> Jeff, thanks for having me. >> Absolutely, so before we jump into the fun stuff, just a little bit of background on Zebra Sports and Zebra Technologies. >> Okay well, first, Zebra Technologies is a publicly traded company, we started in the late 1960s, and really what we do is we track enterprise assets in industries typically like healthcare, retail, travel and logistics, and transportation. And what we've done is take that heritage and bring that over into the world of sports, starting four years ago with our relationship with the NFL as the official player tracking technology. >> It's such a great story of an old-line company, right? based in Illinois-- >> Yeah, Lincolnshire. >> Outside of Chicago, right? RFID tags, and inventory management, and all this kind of old-school stuff. But then to take that into this really dynamic world, A, of sports, but even more, advanced analytics, which is relatively new. And we've been at it for a few years, but what a great move by the company to go into this space. How did they choose to do that? >> Well it was an opportunity that just came to them through an RFP, the NFL had investigated different technologies to track players including optical and a GPS-based technologies, and now of course with Zebra, our location and technologies are based on RFID. And so we just took the heritage and our capabilities of really working at the edge of enterprises in those traditional industries from transactional moments, to inventory control moments, to analytics at the end, and took that model and ported it over to football, and it's turned out to be a very good relationship for us in a couple of ways. We've matured as a sports business over the four years, we've developed more opportunities to take our solutions, not just in-game but moving them into the practice facilities for NFL teams, but it's also opened up the aperture for other industries to now appreciate how we can track minute types of information, like players moving around on the football field, and translating it into usable information. >> So, for the people that aren't familiar, they can do a little homework. But basically you have a little tag, a little sensor, that goes onto the shoulder pads, right? >> There's two chips. >> Two chips, and from that you can tell where that player is all the time and how they move, how they fast they move, acceleration and all the type of stuff, right? >> Correct, we put two chips inside of the shoulder pads for down linemen, or people who play with their hands on the ground, we put a third chip between the shoulder blades. Those chips communicate with receiver boxes that have been installed across the perimeter or around the perimeter of a stadium, and they blink 12 times per second. And that does tell you who's on the field, where they are on the field, and in proximity to other players on the field. And once the play starts itself, we can see how fast they're going, we can calculate change of direction, acceleration and deceleration metrics, we can also see, as you know with football, interesting information like separation from a wide receiver in defensive back, which is critical when you're evaluating players' capabilities. >> So, this started about four years ago, right? >> Yes, we started our relationship with the league in-game, four years ago. >> Okay, so I'd just love to kind of hear your take on how the evolution of the introduction of this data was received by the league, received by the teams, something they'd never had before, right? Kind of a look and feel and you can look at film, but not to the degree and the tightness of tolerances that you guys are able to deliver. >> Well, like any new technology and information resource, it takes time to first of all determine what you want to do with that information, you have an idea when you start, and then it evolves over time. And so what we started with was tagging the players themselves and during the time, what we've really enjoyed in working with the NFL is that the league has to be very pragmatic and thoughtful when introducing new technologies and information. So they studied and researched the information to determine how much of this information do they share with the clubs, how much do they share with the fans and the media, and then what type of information sharing, what does that mean in terms of impact of the integrity of the game and fair competition. So, for the first two years it was more of a research and testing type of process, and starting in 2016 you started to see more of an acceleration of that data being shared with the clubs. Each club would receive their own data for in-game, and then we would start to see some of that trickle out through the NFL's Next Gen Stats brand banner on their NFL.com site. And so then we start to see more of that and then what I think we've really seen pick up pace certainly in 2017 is more utilization of this information from a media perspective. We're seeing it more integrated into the broadcasts themselves, so you have like kind of a live tracking set of information that keeps you contextually involved in the game. >> Right. And you were involved in advanced analytics before you joined Zebra, so you've been kind of in this advanced stats world for a while. So how did it change when you actually had a real-time sensor on people's bodies? >> Yeah it does feel a bit like Groundhog Day, right? I started more in the stats and advanced analytics when I worked for STATS LLC. In 2007, I developed a piece of software for the New Orleans Saints that they used to track observational statistics to game video. And it was a similar type of experience in starting in 2009 and introducing that to teams where it took about three or four years where teams started to feel like that new information resource was not a nice to have but a need to have, a premium ingredient that they could use for game planning, and then player evaluation, and also the technology could provide them some efficiencies. We're seeing that now with the tracking data. We just returned from the NFL Combine a couple weeks ago, and what I felt in all the conversations that we had with clubs was that there was a high level of appreciation and a lot of interest in how tracking data can help facilitate their traditional scouting and player evaluation processes, the technology itself how can it make the teams more efficient in evaluating players and developing game plans, so there's a lot of excitement. We've kind of hit that tipping point, if I may, where there's general acceptance and excitement about the data and then it's incumbent upon us as a partner with the league and with the teams for our practice clients to teach them how to use the analytics and statistics effectively. >> So I'm just curious, some of the specific data points that you've seen evolve over time and also the uses. I think you were talking about a little bit off camera that originally it was really more the training staff and it was really more kind of the health of the player. Then I would imagine it evolved to now you can actually see what's going on in terms of better analysis, but I would imagine it's going to evolve where coaches are getting that feedback in real-time on a per-play basis and are making in-game adjustments based on this real-time data. >> Well technically that's feasible today but then there's the rules of engagement with the league itself, and so the teams themselves, and the coaches, and the sideline aren't seeing this tracking data live, whether it be in the booth or on the sidelines. Now in a practice environment, that's what teams are using our system for. With inside of three seconds they're seeing real-time information show up about players during practice. Let's take an example, a player during practice who's coming back from injury. You might want to monitor their output during the week as they come back and they make sure that they're ready for the game on a week to week basis. Trainers are now able to see that information and take that over to a position coach or a head coach and make them aware of the performance of the player during practice. And I think sometimes people think with tracking data it's all about managing in the health of the player and making sure they don't overwork. Where really, the antithesis of that is you can actually also identify players who aren't necessarily reaching their maximum output that will help them build throughout the week from peak performance during a game. And so a lot of teams like to say okay, I have a wide receiver, I know their max miles per hour, is, let's use an example, 20.5 miles an hour. He hasn't hit his max yet during the entire week, so let's get him into some drills and some sessions, where he can start hitting that max so that we reduce the potential for injury on game day. >> Right, another area that probably a lot of people would never think is you also put sensors on the refs. So you know not only where the refs are, but are they in the right positions technically and kind of from a best practices to make the calls for the areas that they're trying to cover. >> Right. >> There's got to be, was their a union pushback on this type of stuff? I mean there's got to be some interesting kind of dynamics going on. >> Yeah as far as the referees, I know that referees are tagged and the NFL uses that information and correlates that with the play calls themselves. We're not involved in that process but I know they're utilizing the information. In addition to the referees I should add, we also have a tag in the ball itself. >> [Jeff] That's right. >> 2017 season was the first year that we had every single game had a tagged ball. Now that tagged information in the ball was not shared with the clubs yet, the league is still researching the information, like they did with the players' stuff. A couple years of research, then they decide to distribute that to the teams and the media. So we are tracking a lot of assets, we also have tags in the first down markers and the pylons and I'll just cut to the chase, there are people who will say okay, does that mean you can use these chips and this technology to identify first down marks or when a ball might break the plane for a potential touchdown? Technically you can do that, and that's something the league may be researching, but right now that's not part of our charter with them. >> Right, so I'm just curious about the conversations about the data and the use of the data. 'Cause as you said there's a lot of raw data, and there's kind of governance issues and rules of engagement, and then there's also what types of analytics get applied on top of that data, and then of course also it's about context, what's the context of the analytics? So I wonder if you could speak to the kind of the evolution of that process, what were people looking at when you first introduced this four years ago, and how has it moved over time in terms of adding new analytics on top of that data set? >> That's one of my favorite topics to talk about, when we first started with the league and engaging teams for the practice solution or providing them analytics, they in essence got a large raw data file of XY coordinates, you can imagine (laughs) it was a gigantic hard drive-- >> Even better, XY coordinates. >> And put it into a spreadsheet and go. There was some of that early on and really what we had to do through the power of software, is develop and application platform that would help teams manage and organize this data appropriately, develop the appropriate reports, or interesting reports and analysis. And over the last two or three years I think we've really found our stride at Zebra in providing solutions to go along with the capabilities of the technology itself. So at first it was strength and conditioning coaches, plowing through this information in great detail or analytics staffs, and what we've seen over the last 24 months is director of analytics now, personnel staff, coaches as well, a broadening group of people inside of a football organization start to use this data because the software itself allows them to do so. I'll give an example, instead of just tabular information, and charts and graphs, we now take the data and we can plot them into a play field schematic, which as you know as we talked off camera you're very familiar with football, that just automates the process of what teams do today manually, is develop play cards so they can do self-study and advanced scouting techniques. That's all automated today, and not only that, it's animated because we have the tracking information and we can merge that to game video. So we're just trying to make the tools with the software more functional so everybody in the organization can utilize it beyond strength and conditioning, which is important, but now we're broadening the aperture and appealing to everybody in the organization. >> Do you do, I can just see you can do play development too, if you plug in everybody's speeds and feeds, you have a certain duration of time, you can probably AB test all types of routes, and timing on drops and now you know how hard the guy throws the ball to come up with a pretty wide array of options, I would imagine within the time window. >> Exactly, a couple of examples I could give, when we meet with teams we have every player, let's say on a team and we know all the routes they ran during an entire season. So you can imagine on a visualization tool, you can imagine, it's like a spaghetti chart of different routes and then you start breaking down the scenarios of context like we talked about earlier, it's third down, it's in the red zone, it's receptions. And so that becomes a smaller set of lines that you see on the chart. I'll tell you Jeff, when we start meeting with teams at the Combine and we start showing them their X or a primary receiver, or their slot receiver tendencies visually, they start leaning forward a bit, oh my goodness, we spend way too much time on the same route when we're targeting for touch down passes. Or we're right-handed too much, we have to change that up. That's the most gratifying thing, is that you're taking a picture and you're really illuminating and those coaches who intrinsically know that, but once they see a visual cue, it validates something in their head that either they have to change or evolve something in their game plan or their practice regimen. >> Well, that's what I was going to ask, and you lead right into it is, what are some of the things that get the old-school person or the people that just don't get that, they don't get it, they don't have the time, they don't believe it, or maybe believe it but they don't have the time, they're afraid to understand. What are some of those kind of light bulb moments when they go okay, I get it, as you said, most of the time if they're smart, it's going to be kind of a validation of something they've already felt, but they've never actually had the data in front of them. >> Right, that's exactly right. So that, the first thing is just quantifying, providing a quantifiable empirical set of evidence to support what they intrinsically know as professional evaluators or coaches. So we always say that they data itself and the technology isn't meant to be a silver bullet. It's now a new premium ingredient that can help support the processes that existed in the past and hopefully provide some efficiency. And so that's the first thing, I think the visual, the example I showed about the wide receiver tendencies when they're thrown to in the red zone, that always gets people leaning forward a little bit. Also with running backs, third down in three plus yards, or third down in short situations, and my right-hander to left-hander when I'm on a certain hash. Again the visualization just allows them to really mark something in their head-- >> Just in the phase. >> Where it makes them really understand. Another example that's interesting is players who play on special teams who are also wide receivers, so as we know, linebackers and tight ends tend to be, and quarterbacks tend to be involved in special teams. Well is there an effect when they've covered kick offs and punts, a large amount of those in a game, did that affect them on side a ball play, for instance? Think about Julian Edelman two Superbowls ago, he played 93 snaps against the Atlanta Falcons. and when you look at the route-- >> [Jeff] He played 93 snaps? >> Yeah, between special, because it went into overtime, right? It was an offensive game-- >> And he's on all the-- >> He played a lot of snaps, he played 93 snaps. how does that affect his route integrity? Not only the types and quality of the route, but the depth and speed he gets to those points, those change over time. So this type of information can give the experts just a little bit more information to find that edge. And I have a great mentor of mine, I have to bring him up, Gill Brant, former VP of Personnel to Dallas Cowboys, with Tex Schramm and Tom Landry, he looks at this type of information and he says, what would a team pay for one more victory? >> So as we know, all coaches and professional organizations and college are looking for an edge, and if we can provide that with our technology through efficiencies and some type of support information resource then we're doing our job. >> I just wanted to, before I let you go, just the human factors on that. I mean, football coaches are notoriously crazy workers and, right, you can always watch more films. So now you're adding a whole new category of data and information. How's that being received on their side? Is it, are they going to have to put new staff and resources against this? I mean, there's only so many hours in a day and I can't help but think of the second tier or third tier coaches who are going to be on the hook for going through this. Or can you automate so much of it so it's not necessarily this additional burden that they have to take on? 'Cause I would imagine if the Cowboys are doing it, the Eagles got to do it, the Giants got to do it, and the Washington Redskins got to do it, right? >> Right, right, well each team as you might expect, their cultures are different. And I would say two or three years ago you started to see more teams hire literally by title, director of analytics, or director of football information, instead of sharing that responsibility between two or three people that already existed in the organization. So that staffing I think occurred a couple, two or three years ago or over the last two or three years. This becomes another element for those staffs to work with. But also along that process over the last two or three years is, really, I always try to say in talking to teams and I'll be on the road again here soon talking to clubs after pro days conclude, is forget about staffs and analytics and that idea. Do you want to be information driven, and do you want to be efficient? And that's something everybody can grasp onto, whether you're the strength and conditioning coach, personnel staff or scout, or a position coach, or a head coach, or a coordinator. So we try to be information driven, and then that seems to ease the process of people thinking I have to hire more people. What I really need to do is ask my people that are already in place to maybe be more curious about this information, and if we're going to invest in a resource that can help support them and make them more efficient, make sure we leverage it. And so that's our process that we work with, it varies by team, some teams have large, large expansive staffs. That doesn't necessarily mean, in my opinion the most effective staff is using information. Sometimes it's the organizations that run very lean with a few set of people, but very focused and moving in one direction. >> I love it, data for efficiency, right? In God we trust, everybody else bring data. One of my favorite lines that we hear over and over and over at these shows. >> In fact, I might borrow that next week. >> You could take that one, alright. >> Thank you, Jeff. >> Well John, thanks for taking a few minutes and stopping by and participating in this Western Digital program, because it is all about the data and it is about efficiency, so it's not necessarily trying to kill people with more tools, but help them be better. >> That's what we're trying to do, I appreciate the opportunity and love to talk to you more. >> Absolutely, well hopefully we'll see you again. He's John Pollard, I'm Jeff Frick, you're watching theCUBE from Palo Alto studios, thanks for watching, we'll see you next time. (Upbeat music)

>> Hey, welcome back everybody, Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're in our Palo Alto studios for a Cube Conversation as part of the Western Digital Data Makes Possible program it's very gracious of Western Digital to sponsor us to go out and talk to a lot of different companies that are doing a lot of cool innovations. At the end of the day it's all powered by data, at the end of the day all software is just an algorithm sitting on data with a nice display for a specific solution. But this one we're diving into sports and there's so much going on with sports and technology and this is a great company that's actually been kind of flying under the radar for 10 years unless you're into the space. But we're happy to have them as GumGum and we're joined here by Brian Kim he's a senior vice president of Product from GumGum. Brian, great to see you. >> Thanks for having me Jeff. Appreciate it. >> Absolutely. So for the folks that aren't familiar with GumGum give 'em kind of the quick overview. >> Sure, so GumGum's a artificial intelligence company with a expertise in computer vision. And what that means in kind of common language is that we focus on building algorithms that allows computers to identify what's happening in imagery. And then we apply that into different businesses that we feel like the usage of computer vision could essentially automate scale or drive significant value to those different businesses themselves. >> Right, but you guys have been at this for awhile you're almost 10 years old, like you said your 10 year anniversary's coming up. >> Yeah we were founded in 2008 and a lot of the core team still together from the original team that worked there. And we were doing computer vision before computer vision was probably sexy. >> Right right. >> So. We've been working on it for a long time we've built a lot of expertise around that and with a lot of the improvements that have happened in machine learning and A.I. these days it's just been kind of the big, hot thing that has continued to accelerate and helped us grow significantly over the last few years. >> Yeah all of our social media feeds are filled with the picture with the chihuahuas and the blueberries right? Trying to figure out which is which. But you guys have a very different approach then kind of what we read about now in the popular press. You built computer vision capabilities but you built them for a very specific application not just as a generic kind of computer vision so I wonder if you can tell us a little bit about your strategy and how you guys got started in the ad space. >> Sure, so you know, to your point Jeff I think a lot of companies have focus on what we like to call A.I. as a service and what that means is that they build the capability of using computer vision but it's really up to the end user to build it use it as a tool in to their actual business and figure out where it'll actually apply. Our path forward has been focusing on building what we like to call full stack vertical solutions meaning that we decide to go into a specific industry or division like ads for example. We build an ad solution that's using computer vision itself and we actually sell that ourselves to agencies and brands direct and then we work with the publishers on the other side of the coin to actually deliver those ad experiences and continue to kind of build our businesses around that model. >> Right, and how is a computer vision, A.I. driven ad experience different than the alternative? >> Well I think there's a few things that we've focused on that make it different. The biggest I would say is the placement of where the ads actually are themselves. So compared to your standard display ads that are around the content on a web page what we've focused on is actually building ad experiences that are within the content itself. What we call in-image ads and that's an ad that overlays on top of that photo editorial content that's on a publisher website. And what we've done there is we've applied our computer vision to understand what's going on in the actual images. And we leverage that tech to be able to then contextually match the ads from our clients to the actual pages themselves so that they're completely relevant to the page. And we make them look very slick and that's kind of the design of it so that it feels very sticky and natural to the way that the page is actually designed. >> Right >> And built. >> So what's different just so I'm clear is that unlike a typical kind of an ad placement in a page which is going into a dedicated spot as soon as the page loads it takes some data. >> Yep. >> And goes to auction. You guys are actually looking at the page as I the consumer of the page am looking at the page, and based on the things that are loaded regardless of where I am on the page: top, middle, bottom, that's the stuff that drives your ad placement. >> Yeah, perfect example would be you might be reading an article about cats and, you know, PetSmart wants to advertise with us so we'll understand that the image itself is about cats and put like a cat food, PetSmart ad that's placed within the actual image itself you might scroll down a little bit farther and find another article that's about a completely different topic. And we would actually match that to the relevant advertiser that fits that example as well. >> So how are advertisers measuring the delta in the value? I mean some of the stuff researching for this I saw a great quote that you guys in your ad "Delivery want to be seen and frequent and respectful" which I think is a really interesting way to take a point of view because clearly ads run a risk of being way too obtrusive, popovers and popunders and popups. I go to a page, I'm a huge customer in two seconds they're asking me if I want to buy something, I'm already your biggest customer! (Brian laughs) So how are the content publishers measuring this different type of an engagement with an ad presentation the way you guys do it? >> Yeah I think what you talked about is the right approach of how we want to go to market which is that we want to provide a premium offering that's high impact but not obtrusive to the end customer, and provides value to both sides of the ecosystem. So to the advertiser it might be a premium CPM that they're paying in order for that ad placement but because of how relevant it is and how viewable it is 'cause if you think about where your eyes are on the webpage, you're not looking at scanning the sides of the page you're focusing on the content that's going down the image is right in the middle of that. So if an ad pops up right in the middle of that image its much more viewable than say all the ads that are typically around the content itself. And on the publishers side to kind of end frequency we don't want to blast an ad on every single image we want to match it to the most contextual and right placement and then therefore to the publisher when they get an ad, that ad is actually paying out a pretty significant price point back to them. And then they're happy with that experience because their users not saying I'm seeing 50 ads on one page which is kind of the traditional problem that they deal with right now. >> So that's a ad tech market and you guys have been doing that for awhile but the reason we reached out to you specifically is your activity in sports which is a relatively new business for you guys. So how did you get into sports, how did you guys identify this opportunity? And then we'll dig into it a little deeper. >> Yeah, so GumGum as a whole has always been looking at different ways that we think computer vision can be applied in a myriad of different industries. And the opportunity that about 18 months ago we identified was that there was a very legacy business that was being built around providing media evaluation around sports sponsorships. So what I mean by that is how do you quantify the value of a sponsor showing up, State Farm for example showing up in a basketball game. Whether that's an LED placement there on the basket stanchion arm, or they're part of the half-time show. And the measurement that was being done traditionally was essentially done by people. So, people were watching those clips, they were timing how long the different brands were showing up, they were measuring how big those actual placements were. And they were then calculating some value off of it. And we really thought that computer vision can one, automate that entire process, so take the humans out of the loop and get it to a point that its completely automated and you don't have to have people involved. We can deliver it faster, so a computer can do something a 1000 times faster than a human being can probably analyze it. And your providing much more accuracy and efficiency of the actual data that you're providing back. You know that exact dimensions pixel by pixel that a computer is telling you versus a human being trying to eyeball where and when certain ads are showing up. So, what we've done there is then built a business that is now called GumGum Sports, where we provide media evaluation to sports sponsorships so both on the team side, which we call rights holders, and on the brand side and we're essentially the middle man who's providing third party reporting to both sides so that they understand the value of what they're getting across their sports sponsorships, both on digital which is essentially broadcast T.V. but also across social media which has been a huge gap that nobody's addressed to date. >> So just before we go into the impact before it was just a person, they're watching the game and every time that State Farm ad pops up on the stanchion they're writing down approximately how big was it could I see it, was it blurry, was it moving? Was it in the center or the side? You guys, obviously that's just right for algorithmic treatment 'cause you know, like you said you know, the pixels. You're doing time, you're doing placement, you're doing quality, you've added a number of things beyond just simple, that is there. >> [Brian] Correct. >> In terms of metrics to measure. >> Yeah so we look at things like where's the action happening? So if we can identify in a basketball game where the actual ball is that's probably where people are focused on 'cause the action's happening near that ball. So the closer you are to the ball the better score that you'll possibly get. To your point, how clear is it if you're panning back and forth through a game of your logo showing up? How big is it, how prominent is it and we've factored that into what we call our MVP factor of media value percentage which helps calculate what that end value looks like to the client. >> And was the demand driven on the suppliers side or the buyers side, were they looking for validation of this money. >> I think both. >> Value or were you saying it was both really? >> Yeah sorry to interrupt you. >> No, it's okay. >> Both sides were looking for somebody who's not favoring one or the other to give you validation so they wanted an arbitrator who would basically say this is what I think the value is in the ecosystem so that both sides know how to negotiate when they want to put together their deals next year. >> [Jeff] Right. >> You know the value to the teams are the more value you can generate obviously the higher that they can increase their price points. And I think to the brands what they're focused on is how do I optimize my ROI? Buy the placements that are generating the most value for me and not waste my money in other placements that don't generate value for them. >> Right, any big surprises in terms of the value of a stanchion versus the value of a half-time show versus a electronic thing on the scoreboard? >> So I think more than the placements themselves I think the biggest surprise that we found was how big social media actually has become in the valuation of all of media in general. You know, there's a lot of talk about subscribers numbers going down on T.V. That broadcast is declining, that nobody's watching. >> Super Bowl was down I think this year? Which doesn't happen very often. >> You know, live sports is just not what it used to be. But the reality is I think consumers have just changed their habits of where they're consuming that content. So instead of having to sit in front of a T.V. for two hours they might go check the highlights on YouTube, they might go look at their Instagram stream and see a bunch of posts that are coming from fan accounts that they're following that give you the highlight clip. So, being able to measure that piece of it that nobody's done before what we found is that that value is actually as big if not bigger than the broadcast side of it. Which nobody has really quantified to this date. >> That's really interesting. So you're what sniffing hashtags or something around a particular event to grab that data how are you grabbing all the social data around say a basketball game or whatever? >> So that's where the computer vision actually gets applied so we don't even need to look at specific hashtags or specific accounts. We can look at the full stream literally all of social media that's available publicly and we're able to sift. >> [Jeff] Just plug into the API. >> Yes sift through all that with computer vision and say oh this is not a sport, oh this one happens to be a sport now I know that it's NFL, now I know it's tied to the Super Bowl. And then you now classify all that data and then figure out the actual post that you want to analyze and the ones you don't want to analyze. >> It's so interesting I can't help but think back to like the Grateful Dead back in the day they were the only band that would allow people to record at the concerts, right. There was this huge, you can't record and no pictures! And then they would trade the tapes in the parking lot before the game and you saw that too with a lot of professional teams, no phones, I was at a concert the other day and they're like no phones! No phones, I mean that is the way that people experience and expand and amplify these live events. And it sounds like what you guys are doing is really validating how important that is to all the people that are participating in that live event. >> I'll give you a perfect example with the NBA all-star week just happened in Los Angeles recently. If you look at the slam dunk contests half of the all-stars that were in the crowd had their phones up (Jeff laughs) and are basically recording something that they're probably going to post on their social media account later. >> With massive, massive, massive followers. >> Each one of them might have two to 10 million people who follow them so you multiply all that and that's probably a bigger audience then actually who'll tune in to TNT or whichever channel that happened to be watching live the actual slam dunk contest itself. >> That's crazy. So, I'm curious to know what the response is as you come back to this data obviously it's great news for the publishers right a bunch of value that they didn't even know they were delivering no one's even capturing. At the same time I would imagine the advertisers are thrilled to actually to see that they are getting this whole nother traunch of activation that they had no clue or at least no way to measure. >> Correct. I think that's been the biggest surprise to everybody is how much value has been unlocked to them and both sides are thrilled about it because now they can start to measure that on a consistent basis and then moving forward they can figure out how that fits into their overall plan for whether they want to charge more for their sponsorships or whether they want to price certain things in like social media that they never did before. >> Right right. So, my mind is going all kind of places, so could you on sniffing that feed find say the State Farm logo stay on the same thing. Where's State Farm logo showing up in a billboard that's on the 101 that happens to be in front of a pretty spot where people take bike paths. Are you seeing or even attempting to look for other kind of secondary social impacts of other forms of advertising outside of your core solution within the sports? >> Yeah, I mean we've started to get feedback of people who are interested in solutions like that whether it's digital out of home different kind of businesses that have built themselves around wanting to track this type of ROI and we've looked at a few use cases and talked to a couple clients that we're starting to dabble in now that might be interesting for us to build new businesses around. Just like the use case that you talked about with the digital out of home example. >> Right, another one of my favorite lines that gets thrown around a lot these days is in God we trust everybody else better bring data. So I'm just curious as to the feedback you're getting from both sides of that equation within the sports application of now we have this data I mean how is that impacting peoples evaluations, how is that impacting their business decision, just kind of generally how does moving from I think this is a good value, we bought it last year we're going to re-up this year, to here's all the impressions you got the quality of the impressions, a score, plus we've uncovered all this additional value I would imagine data driven decision making has got to be so refreshing in these environments. >> It is and I think the challenge that a lot of them had was that they were getting the data six to eight weeks later, so if you think of it from a brand prospective I'm already off to my next sponsorship six to eight weeks later I can't even think about what I previously did so for us to be able to give them a solution where they can get their data back in a week or less really helps them make smarter decisions to your point about taking data driven decision making and figure out real time how they want to adjust to how their audience is adjusting. >> And do they make a lot of real time corrections in those types of packages or are those like annual deals I would imagine in the sports thing. >> Yeah I think a lot of them at this point are still annual deals the way that they sign up for it but I think now that they're having access to this data they're starting to rethink that model and trying to figure out how do we need to change the way that we purchase these things in the future to better fit how they're getting the data around it. >> Has anyone repriced the inventory based on the data that's come out of the research. They increase the price of a stanchion and decrease, I'm just making stuff up, decrease the price of some other ad unit within the stadium based on some of the data that's come out of your system. >> We've had a lot of our clients talk about their plans of how they plan to go do that. I think we're only 18 months into this business so a lot of them are still in the first season or maybe halfway through the second season of working with us so they're still trying to figure out how to message that properly and what the right channel is for them to recoup those gains but I think the ability for them to start those conversations is something they've never had before so exposing that to them now allows them to really rethink how their business model is. >> It's such a cool example of how data actually allows both halves of the equation to do a better job It's really beneficial to everybody right it's not just one sided information that's giving somebody a big advantage over the other one. >> Exactly. >> All right so Brian before I let you go we're in 2018 still hard to believe I can't believe we're almost through the first quarter, we're ripping through it. Some of your priority's for 2018 what is GumGum working on what are you excited about if we sit down a year from now what are we going to be talking about? >> Yeah I mean we've been doing this advertising business since 2011 it's our most mature business so I'm definitely continually scaling that business from a automation standpoint and continually growing that particularly internationally has been one of our main goals for this year. As I said GumGum Sports is a pretty new business to us but we're expecting that to start to bring in significant revenue for us this year and want to see that growth happen. And we're also looking into new emerging areas where we potentially think computer vision can be applied just like we did in GumGum Sports. It could be the medical space it could be television there's a lot of different applications there that we haven't quite tapped into yet but we're starting to noodle around what are the right ways that we want to go after that and potentially where we want to invest in with how successful we've been so far. >> Yeah, the exciting opportunity ahead. >> Yeah. >> All right. All right Brian, he's Brian Kim, he's the senior vice president of Product from GumGum. Thanks for taking a few minutes out of your day and stopping by. >> Thanks Jeff. >> All right, pleasure. I'm Jeff Frick you're watching theCUBE catch ya next time, thanks for watching. (instrumental music)

>> Dave: Good morning everybody and welcome to Big Data SV. >> Come down, hang out with us today as we have continued conversations. >> Will this trend, this Big Data trend, solve the problems that decision support and business intelligence couldn't solve. We're going to talk about that today. Gentlemen, welcome to theCUBE. (energetic rock music) >> Dave: We're setting up for the digital business era. >> What do people really want to do? And it's big data analytics. I want to ingest a lot of information. I want to enrich it. I want to analyze it and I want to take actions and then I want to go park it. >> Leveraging everything that is open source to build models and put models in production. >> We talk a little bit like it's Google Docs for your data. >> So I no longer have to send daily data dumps to partners. They can simply query the data themselves. >> We've taken the two approaches of enterprise analytics and self-services and tried to create a scenario where you kind of get the best of both worlds. >> The epicenter of this whole data management has to move to cloud. >> It saves you a lot of time and effort. You can focus on more strategic projects. >> Do you agree it's kind of bifurcated. There's the Spotifys, and the Ubers, and the AirBnBs that are crushing it and then there's a lot of traditional enterprises that are still stovepipe and struggling. >> Marketing people, operational people, finance people, they need data to do their jobs. Their jobs are becoming more data-driven but they're not necessarily data people. >> They're depending on the vendor landscape to provide them with an entry level set of tools. >> Don't make me work harder and add new staff. Solve the problem. >> Yeah, it's all about solving problems. >> A lot more on machine learning now and artificial intelligence and frankly a lot of discussion around ethics. >> Data governance, it is in fact a business imperative. >> Marketers want all the customer data they can get, right? But there's social security numbers, PII-- Who should be able to see and use what because if this data is used inappropriately then it can cause a lot of problems. >> Creating that visibility is very important. >> The biggest casualty is going to be their customer relationship if they don't do this because most companies don't know their customers fully. >> The key that digital transformation is really a lauder on the concept of real time. >> If anybody deals with the data that's in motion, you lose because I'm analyzing as it's happening and then you would be analyzing after at rest. >> Speed is so important these days and the new companies that are grasping data aggressively, putting it somewhere where they can make decisions on it on a day-to-day basis, they're winning. >> Come on down, be part of our audience. We also have a great party tonight where you can network with some of our experts and analysts. (energetic rock music) >> Our expectation is that as the tooling gets better, we will see more people be able to present themselves truly as capable of doing this, and that will accelerate the process. >> To me, one of the first things a CDO has to do is understand how a company gets value out of its data. >> You can either run away from that data and say, look, I'm going to not, I'm going to bury my head in the sand, I'm going to be a business, I'm just going to forget about that data stuff and that's certainly a way to go. Right? It's a way to go away. >> It's easy to get overwhelmed for companies, you have to pick somewhere, right? >> You don't have to go sit in the basement for a year having something that is 'the thing', the unicorn in the business, it's small quick wins. >> We're not afraid of makin' mistakes. If we provision infrastructure and we don't get it right the first time, we just change it. >> That's something that we would just never be able to do previously in a data center. >> When companies get started with the right first project they can build on that success and invest more, whereas if you're not experimenting and trying things and moving, you're never going to get there. >> Dave: Thanks for watching, everybody. This is thCUBE. We're live from Big Data SV. >> And we're clear. Thank you. (audience applauds)

(click) >> Hey, welcome back everybody. Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're in downtown San Francisco at Moscone West at the Professional BusinessWomen of California Conference. 6,000 women, this thing's been going on for 28 years. It's a pretty amazing show. We see a lot of big women in tech conferences, but this is certainly one of the biggest and it's all about diversity, not just women. And of course, if there's a women in tech event, who are we going to see? Sandy Carter. >> Woo hoo! (laughs) >> Sandy, so great to see you. CEO of Silicon Blitz and been involved with PBWC for a while. >> I had suggested to Congresswoman Jackie when I saw her about three or four years ago about doing something special for the senior women. I proposed this leadership summit, and you know what they always say, if you suggest something, be prepared to execute it. She said, "Would you help us get this going?" Three years ago, I started the Senior Leaders Forum here, and yesterday we had that forum. We had 75 amazing women from all the great companies of California Chevron, Clorox, IBM, Microsoft Intel, Amazon, you name it all the great companies here in the Bay. Oh, Salesforce, Airbnb, all goes on. >> That was like a little conference in the conference? >> It was for C-Suite only and it was about 75 women. We do three TED Talks. We pick out talks that are hot but that are very actionable for companies. So yesterday, Jeff, we talked about millennials how to have inclusion of millennials in your workforce. 50% of the workforce by 2020 will be millennials. >> Is that a harder challenge than just straight-up diversity? >> This is really important. (laughs) It may be. But I had Allison Erwiener and Erby Foster from Clorox come and speak and they did a TED talk. Then we actually do little workshops to action. What would a millennial program look like? Our second topic was around innovation. How do you link diversity to innovation? There are so many studies, Carnegie Mellon Silicon Valley, Harvard, DeLoy that shows there is a linkage but how do you get the linkage? For all these amazing diverse- >> The linkage between better business outcomes, correct? >> That's right. >> Better outcomes. >> That's right. In fact, the latest study from Harvard came out at the end of 2016 that showed not only with diverse teams do you get more innovation but more profitable innovation which is everybody's bailiwick today. We had Jeremiah Owyang of Crowd Companies who's a innovation expert come and really do that session for us. Then last but not least we talked about diversity and inclusion, primarily inclusion in the next century. What is that going to look like? We saw some facts about what's going on in changes in population, changes in diversity and then how we as companies should manage programs in order to tap into those changes. It was an awesome, awesome session. Then of course we had Pat Waters from Linkedin. She is chief talent officer there. She came and closed it out with her definition of inclusion. It was powerful. >> You won an award. >> I won an award, yes. >> Congratulations, what did you win? >> Game Changer for PBWC, and I'm really proud of it because last year we had Serena Williams speak and she was the first recipient so I guess you'd say I'm in great company because it's now Serena and I with this great award. >> Absolutely. Before we went on air we were talking about some of this next-gen diversity and thinking about getting that into programming languages and you brought up, there was some conversation around bots and obviously chat bots are all the rage and AI and ML is driving a lot of this but ultimately someone's got to write the software to teach these things how to behave so you're going to run into the same types of issues if you don't have a diversity of the thinking of the way the rules and those bots work as you have in any other situation where you have singular thinking. >> I think Jeff, you're right on. In fact, I think it's really going to accelerate the desire for diverse teams. If you think about artificial intelligence machine learning, and bots you have to train the computer. The computer's not naturally smart. There is a team that actually uses a corpus of knowledge and trains the bot. If the data that goes in my dad always said, "Garbage in, garbage out." If the data that goes in is biased then the output is biased and we're seeing that now. For instance, I was just looking at some VR headsets and people are now looking at virtual reality. You know you get a little nauseous. They've been tweaking it with artificial intelligence so that you don't get as nauseous but it was done by all men. As a result, it greatly improved the nauseousness of men but not women. That's just one example. You want your product to go for 100% of the world. >> That's weird, you'd think that would be pretty biological and not so much gender-specific. >> You would, but there are apparently differences. We talked to a doctor yesterday. There's apparently differences in motion-sickness between the two and if you only have one set of data you don't have the other. >> But then there's this other kind of interesting danger with machine learning and I think we see it a lot in what's going on in the news and causing a lot of diversion within the country in that the algorithms are going to keep feeding you more of that which you already have demonstrated an affinity to. It's almost like you have to purposefully break the things or specifically tell it, either through active action or programming that no, please send me stuff that I'm not necessarily seeing all the time. Please give me stuff that's going to give me a diversity of points of view and opinion and sources because it feels like with your basic recommendation engine it's going to keep sending you more of the same and rat hole you down one little track. >> That is true, and that's why today we have a panel and we're going to be talking about especially for AI and bots you must have diverse teams. From the session this morning I really loved one of the speakers, Kim Rivera, from HP and she said, "It's hard, but we just said 'Look, we've got to have 50% women on the board. We've got to do this.'" I think the same thing's going to be true for AI or bots Jeff, if you don't have a diverse team, you will not get the right answer from a bot. Bots are so powerful, and I was just with a group of nine year old girls and we had a coding camp and I asked them, "What do you want to do?" All of them wanted to do bots. >> Really. >> They had all played with- >> What kind of bots- >> The Zootopia- >> Did they want to do? >> They all had played with a Zootopia bot from Disney. I don't know, did you see Zootopia? >> I did not see it. I heard it was a great movie. >> It's a great movie, animated movie of the year. >> Bunnies, bunnies, bunnies as cops, right? >> That's right. In fact, the bunny is what they made into a chat bot. 10 million kids use that chat bot to get a little badge. Now all the kids are into bots. They used bots to remind them to brush their teeth to do their homework. In fact, there was a chat bot written by a 14 year old boy in Canada that's a homework reminder. It's actually really quite good. >> Also I'm thinking of is the Microsoft little kid that didn't, I guess timing is everything. >> Timing is everything, that's right. >> That one didn't work so well. >> But I guess what I would just leave with people is that when you're looking at this great, great new technology for AI and bots in particular, you must have a diverse team. You must look at your data. Your data's got to be unbiased. Like you said, if you just keep doing the same old thing you're going to get the same old answer. You've got to do something different. >> You're doing all kinds of stuff. You're working with Girls in Tech on the board there. I think you're doing some stuff with the Athena Alliance who's driving to get more women on >> Boards. >> Boards. You're really putting your toes in all kinds of puddles to really help move this thing because it also came up in the keynote. It's not a strategy problem. It's an execution problem. >> That's right, and because I'm so passionate about tech I love tech and I see this linkage today that is been never really been there that strong before but now it's almost like if you don't have diversity your AI and bots are going to fail. Forester just said that AI and bots is the future so companies have to pay attention to this now. I really think it's the moment of time. >> We're running out of time. I'm going to give you the last word. What are one or two concrete things that you've seen in your experience that leaders can do, like came up today in the keynote tomorrow to really help move the ball down the field? >> I think one is to make sure you have a diverse team and make sure that it represents diversity of thought and that could be age, it could be gender it could be sexual orientation, race you got to look at that diversity of team, that's one. Secondly, just by having a diverse team doesn't mean you're going to get great output. You've got to be inclusive. You've got to give these folks great projects. Like millennials, give them a passion project. Let them go and do something that can really make a difference. Then third, I think you have to test and make sure what you're delivering out there represents that cognitive diversity of thought so make sure that you're not just putting stuff out there just to get it out there but really double-checking it. I think those are three actionable things that you can do tomorrow. >> That's great, Sandy. Thank you very much. >> Thanks, Jeff. >> Thanks for stopping by. We just checked Sandy's calendar and there we know where to take theCUBE because she's all over the place. She's Sandy Carter, I'm Jeff Frick. You're watching theCUBE from the Professional BusinessWomen of California conference in San Francisco. Thanks for watching. (synth music)

(upbeat music) >> Welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of Women in Data Science 2023 live from Stanford University. This is Lisa Martin. My co-host is Tracy Yuan. We're excited to be having great conversations all day but you know, 'cause you've been watching. We've been interviewing some very inspiring women and some men as well, talking about all of the amazing applications of data science. You're not going to want to miss this next conversation. Our guest is Gabriela de Queiroz, Principal Cloud Advocate Manager of Microsoft. Welcome, Gabriela. We're excited to have you. >> Thank you very much. I'm so excited to be talking to you. >> Yeah, you're on theCUBE. >> Yeah, finally. (Lisa laughing) Like a dream come true. (laughs) >> I know and we love that. We're so thrilled to have you. So you have a ton of experience in the data space. I was doing some research on you. You've worked in software, financial advertisement, health. Talk to us a little bit about you. What's your background in? >> So I was trained in statistics. So I'm a statistician and then I worked in epidemiology. I worked with air pollution and public health. So I was a researcher before moving into the industry. So as I was talking today, the weekly paths, it's exactly who I am. I went back and forth and back and forth and stopped and tried something else until I figured out that I want to do data science and that I want to do different things because with data science we can... The beauty of data science is that you can move across domains. So I worked in healthcare, financial, and then different technology companies. >> Well the nice thing, one of the exciting things that data science, that I geek out about and Tracy knows 'cause we've been talking about this all day, it's just all the different, to your point, diverse, pun intended, applications of data science. You know, this morning we were talking about, we had the VP of data science from Meta as a keynote. She came to theCUBE talking and really kind of explaining from a content perspective, from a monetization perspective, and of course so many people in the world are users of Facebook. It makes it tangible. But we also heard today conversations about the applications of data science in police violence, in climate change. We're in California, we're expecting a massive rainstorm and we don't know what to do when it rains or snows. But climate change is real. Everyone's talking about it, and there's data science at its foundation. That's one of the things that I love. But you also have a lot of experience building diverse teams. Talk a little bit about that. You've created some very sophisticated data science solutions. Talk about your recommendation to others to build diverse teams. What's in it for them? And maybe share some data science project or two that you really found inspirational. >> Yeah, absolutely. So I do love building teams. Every time I'm given the task of building teams, I feel the luckiest person in the world because you have the option to pick like different backgrounds and all the diverse set of like people that you can find. I don't think it's easy, like people say, yeah, it's very hard. You have to be intentional. You have to go from the very first part when you are writing the job description through the interview process. So you have to be very intentional in every step. And you have to think through when you are doing that. And I love, like my last team, we had like 10 people and we were so diverse. Like just talking about languages. We had like 15 languages inside a team. So how beautiful it is. Like all different backgrounds, like myself as a statistician, but we had people from engineering background, biology, languages, and so on. So it's, yeah, like every time thinking about building a team, if you wanted your team to be diverse, you need to be intentional. >> I'm so glad you brought up that intention point because that is the fundamental requirement really is to build it with intention. >> Exactly, and I love to hear like how there's different languages. So like I'm assuming, or like different backgrounds, I'm assuming everybody just zig zags their way into the team and now you're all women in data science and I think that's so precious. >> Exactly. And not only woman, right. >> Tracy: Not only woman, you're right. >> The team was diverse not only in terms of like gender, but like background, ethnicity, and spoken languages, and language that they use to program and backgrounds. Like as I mentioned, not everybody did the statistics in school or computer science. And it was like one of my best teams was when we had this combination also like things that I'm good at the other person is not as good and we have this knowledge sharing all the time. Every day I would feel like I'm learning something. In a small talk or if I was reviewing something, there was always something new because of like the richness of the diverse set of people that were in your team. >> Well what you've done is so impressive, because not only have you been intentional with it, but you sound like the hallmark of a great leader of someone who hires and builds teams to fill gaps. They don't have to know less than I do for me to be the leader. They have to have different skills, different areas of expertise. That is really, honestly Gabriela, that's the hallmark of a great leader. And that's not easy to come by. So tell me, who were some of your mentors and sponsors along the way that maybe influenced you in that direction? Or is that just who you are? >> That's a great question. And I joke that I want to be the role model that I never had, right. So growing up, I didn't have anyone that I could see other than my mom probably or my sister. But there was no one that I could see, I want to become that person one day. And once I was tracing my path, I started to see people looking at me and like, you inspire me so much, and I'm like, oh wow, this is amazing and I want to do do this over and over and over again. So I want to be that person to inspire others. And no matter, like I'll be like a VP, CEO, whoever, you know, I want to be, I want to keep inspiring people because that's so valuable. >> Lisa: Oh, that's huge. >> And I feel like when we grow professionally and then go to the next level, we sometimes we lose that, you know, thing that's essential. And I think also like, it's part of who I am as I was building and all my experiences as I was going through, I became what I mentioned is unique person that I think we all are unique somehow. >> You're a rockstar. Isn't she a rockstar? >> You dropping quotes out. >> I'm loving this. I'm like, I've inspired Gabriela. (Gabriela laughing) >> Oh my God. But yeah, 'cause we were asking our other guests about the same question, like, who are your role models? And then we're talking about how like it's very important for women to see that there is a representation, that there is someone they look up to and they want to be. And so that like, it motivates them to stay in this field and to start in this field to begin with. So yeah, I think like you are definitely filling a void and for all these women who dream to be in data science. And I think that's just amazing. >> And you're a founder too. In 2012, you founded R Ladies. Talk a little bit about that. This is present in more than 200 cities in 55 plus countries. Talk about R Ladies and maybe the catalyst to launch it. >> Yes, so you always start, so I'm from Brazil, I always talk about this because it's such, again, I grew up over there. So I was there my whole life and then I moved to here, Silicon Valley. And when I moved to San Francisco, like the doors opened. So many things happening in the city. That was back in 2012. Data science was exploding. And I found out something about Meetup.com, it's a website that you can join and go in all these events. And I was going to this event and I joke that it was kind of like going to the Disneyland, where you don't know if I should go that direction or the other direction. >> Yeah, yeah. >> And I was like, should I go and learn about data visualization? Should I go and learn about SQL or should I go and learn about Hadoop, right? So I would go every day to those meetups. And I was a student back then, so you know, the budget was very restricted as a student. So we don't have much to spend. And then they would serve dinner and you would learn for free. And then I got to a point where I was like, hey, they are doing all of this as a volunteer. Like they are running this meetup and events for free. And I felt like it's a cycle. I need to do something, right. I'm taking all this in. I'm having this huge opportunity to be here. I want to give back. So that's what how everything started. I was like, no, I have to think about something. I need to think about something that I can give back. And I was using R back then and I'm like how about I do something with R. I love R, I'm so passionate about R, what about if I create a community around R but not a regular community, because by going to this events, I felt that as a Latina and as a woman, I was always in the corner and I was not being able to participate and to, you know, be myself and to network and ask questions. I would be in the corner. So I said to myself, what about if I do something where everybody feel included, where everybody can participate, can share, can ask questions without judgment? So that's how R ladies all came together. >> That's awesome. >> Talk about intentions, like you have to, you had that go in mind, but yeah, I wanted to dive a little bit into R. So could you please talk more about where did the passion for R come from, and like how did the special connection between you and R the language, like born, how did that come from? >> It was not a love at first sight. >> No. >> Not at all. Not at all. Because that was back in Brazil. So all the documentation were in English, all the tutorials, only two. We had like very few tutorials. It was not like nowadays that we have so many tutorials and courses. There were like two tutorials, other documentation in English. So it's was hard for me like as someone that didn't know much English to go through the language and then to learn to program was not easy task. But then as I was going through the language and learning and reading books and finding the people behind the language, I don't know how I felt in love. And then when I came to to San Francisco, I saw some of like the main contributors who are speaking in person and I'm like, wow, they are like humans. I don't know, it was like, I have no idea why I had this love. But I think the the people and then the community was the thing that kept me with the R language. >> Yeah, the community factors is so important. And it's so, at WIDS it's so palpable. I mean I literally walk in the door, every WIDS I've done, I think I've been doing them for theCUBE since 2017. theCUBE has been here since the beginning in 2015 with our co-founders. But you walk in, you get this sense of belonging. And this sense of I can do anything, why not? Why not me? Look at her up there, and now look at you speaking in the technical talk today on theCUBE. So inspiring. One of the things that I always think is you can't be what you can't see. We need to be able to see more people that look like you and sound like you and like me and like you as well. And WIDS gives us that opportunity, which is fantastic, but it's also helping to move the needle, really. And I was looking at some of the Anitab.org stats just yesterday about 2022. And they're showing, you know, the percentage of females in technical roles has been hovering around 25% for a while. It's a little higher now. I think it's 27.6 according to any to Anitab. We're seeing more women hired in roles. But what are the challenges, and I would love to get your advice on this, for those that might be in this situation is attrition, women who are leaving roles. What would your advice be to a woman who might be trying to navigate family and work and career ladder to stay in that role and keep pushing forward? >> I'll go back to the community. If you don't have a community around you, it's so hard to navigate. >> That's a great point. >> You are lonely. There is no one that you can bounce ideas off, that you can share what you are feeling or like that you can learn as well. So sometimes you feel like you are the only person that is going through that problem or like, you maybe have a family or you are planning to have a family and you have to make a decision. But you've never seen anyone going through this. So when you have a community, you see people like you, right. So that's where we were saying about having different people and people like you so they can share as well. And you feel like, oh yeah, so they went through this, they succeed. I can also go through this and succeed. So I think the attrition problem is still big problem. And I'm sure will be worse now with everything that is happening in Tech with layoffs. >> Yes and the great resignation. >> Yeah. >> We are going back, you know, a few steps, like a lot of like advancements that we did. I feel like we are going back unfortunately, but I always tell this, make sure that you have a community. Make sure that you have a mentor. Make sure that you have someone or some people, not only one mentor, different mentors, that can support you through this trajectory. Because it's not easy. But there are a lot of us out there. >> There really are. And that's a great point. I love everything about the community. It's all about that network effect and feeling like you belong- >> That's all WIDS is about. >> Yeah. >> Yes. Absolutely. >> Like coming over here, it's like seeing the old friends again. It's like I'm so glad that I'm coming because I'm all my old friends that I only see like maybe once a year. >> Tracy: Reunion. >> Yeah, exactly. And I feel like that our tank get, you know- >> Lisa: Replenished. >> Exactly. For the rest of the year. >> Yes. >> Oh, that's precious. >> I love that. >> I agree with that. I think one of the things that when I say, you know, you can't see, I think, well, how many females in technology would I be able to recognize? And of course you can be female technology working in the healthcare sector or working in finance or manufacturing, but, you know, we need to be able to have more that we can see and identify. And one of the things that I recently found out, I was telling Tracy this earlier that I geeked out about was finding out that the CTO of Open AI, ChatGPT, is a female. I'm like, (gasps) why aren't we talking about this more? She was profiled on Fast Company. I've seen a few pieces on her, Mira Murati. But we're hearing so much about ChatJTP being... ChatGPT, I always get that wrong, about being like, likening it to the launch of the iPhone, which revolutionized mobile and connectivity. And here we have a female in the technical role. Let's put her on a pedestal because that is hugely inspiring. >> Exactly, like let's bring everybody to the front. >> Yes. >> Right. >> And let's have them talk to us because like, you didn't know. I didn't know probably about this, right. You didn't know. Like, we don't know about this. It's kind of like we are hidden. We need to give them the spotlight. Every woman to give the spotlight, so they can keep aspiring the new generation. >> Or Susan Wojcicki who ran, how long does she run YouTube? All the YouTube influencers that probably have no idea who are influential for whatever they're doing on YouTube in different social platforms that don't realize, do you realize there was a female behind the helm that for a long time that turned it into what it is today? That's outstanding. Why aren't we talking about this more? >> How about Megan Smith, was the first CTO on the Obama administration. >> That's right. I knew it had to do with Obama. Couldn't remember. Yes. Let's let's find more pedestals. But organizations like WIDS, your involvement as a speaker, showing more people you can be this because you can see it, >> Yeah, exactly. is the right direction that will help hopefully bring us back to some of the pre-pandemic levels, and keep moving forward because there's so much potential with data science that can impact everyone's lives. I always think, you know, we have this expectation that we have our mobile phone and we can get whatever we want wherever we are in the world and whatever time of day it is. And that's all data driven. The regular average person that's not in tech thinks about data as a, well I'm paying for it. What's all these data charges? But it's powering the world. It's powering those experiences that we all want as consumers or in our business lives or we expect to be able to do a transaction, whether it's something in a CRM system or an Uber transaction like that, and have the app respond, maybe even know me a little bit better than I know myself. And that's all data. So I think we're just at the precipice of the massive impact that data science will make in our lives. And luckily we have leaders like you who can help navigate us along this path. >> Thank you. >> What advice for, last question for you is advice for those in the audience who might be nervous or maybe lack a little bit of confidence to go I really like data science, or I really like engineering, but I don't see a lot of me out there. What would you say to them? >> Especially for people who are from like a non-linear track where like going onto that track. >> Yeah, I would say keep going. Keep going. I don't think it's easy. It's not easy. But keep going because the more you go the more, again, you advance and there are opportunities out there. Sometimes it takes a little bit, but just keep going. Keep going and following your dreams, that you get there, right. So again, data science, such a broad field that doesn't require you to come from a specific background. And I think the beauty of data science exactly is this is like the combination, the most successful data science teams are the teams that have all these different backgrounds. So if you think that we as data scientists, we started programming when we were nine, that's not true, right. You can be 30, 40, shifting careers, starting to program right now. It doesn't matter. Like you get there no matter how old you are. And no matter what's your background. >> There's no limit. >> There was no limits. >> I love that, Gabriela, >> Thank so much. for inspiring. I know you inspired me. I'm pretty sure you probably inspired Tracy with your story. And sometimes like what you just said, you have to be your own mentor and that's okay. Because eventually you're going to turn into a mentor for many, many others and sounds like you're already paving that path and we so appreciate it. You are now officially a CUBE alumni. >> Yes. Thank you. >> Yay. We've loved having you. Thank you so much for your time. >> Thank you. Thank you. >> For our guest and for Tracy's Yuan, this is Lisa Martin. We are live at WIDS 23, the eighth annual Women in Data Science Conference at Stanford. Stick around. Our next guest joins us in just a few minutes. (upbeat music)

(bright upbeat music) >> Hello and welcome to theCUBE's coverage of International Women's Day. I'm your host, John Furrier here in Palo Alto, California Studio and remoting is a great guest CUBE alumni, co-founder, technical co-founder and she's also the VP of Product at Platform9 Systems. It's a company pioneering Kubernetes infrastructure, been doing it for a long, long time. Madhura Maskasky, thanks for coming on theCUBE. Appreciate you. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you for having me. Always exciting. >> So I always... I love interviewing you for many reasons. One, you're super smart, but also you're a co-founder, a technical co-founder, so entrepreneur, VP of product. It's hard to do startups. (John laughs) Okay, so everyone who started a company knows how hard it is. It really is and the rewarding too when you're successful. So I want to get your thoughts on what's it like being an entrepreneur, women in tech, some things you've done along the way. Let's get started. How did you get into your career in tech and what made you want to start a company? >> Yeah, so , you know, I got into tech long, long before I decided to start a company. And back when I got in tech it was very clear to me as a direction for my career that I'm never going to start a business. I was very explicit about that because my father was an entrepreneur and I'd seen how rough the journey can be. And then my brother was also and is an entrepreneur. And I think with both of them I'd seen the ups and downs and I had decided to myself and shared with my family that I really want a very well-structured sort of job at a large company type of path for my career. I think the tech path, tech was interesting to me, not because I was interested in programming, et cetera at that time, to be honest. When I picked computer science as a major for myself, it was because most of what you would consider, I guess most of the cool students were picking that as a major, let's just say that. And it sounded very interesting and cool. A lot of people were doing it and that was sort of the top, top choice for people and I decided to follow along. But I did discover after I picked computer science as my major, I remember when I started learning C++ the first time when I got exposure to it, it was just like a light bulb clicking in my head. I just absolutely loved the language, the lower level nature, the power of it, and what you can do with it, the algorithms. So I think it ended up being a really good fit for me. >> Yeah, so it clicked for you. You tried it, it was all the cool kids were doing it. I mean, I can relate, I did the same thing. Next big thing is computer science, you got to be in there, got to be smart. And then you get hooked on it. >> Yeah, exactly. >> What was the next level? Did you find any blockers in your way? Obviously male dominated, it must have been a lot of... How many females were in your class? What was the ratio at that time? >> Yeah, so the ratio was was pretty, pretty, I would say bleak when it comes to women to men. I think computer science at that time was still probably better compared to some of the other majors like mechanical engineering where I remember I had one friend, she was the single girl in an entire class of about at least 120, 130 students or so. So ratio was better for us. I think there were maybe 20, 25 girls in our class. It was a large class and maybe the number of men were maybe three X or four X number of women. So relatively better. Yeah. >> How about the job when you got into the structured big company? How did that go? >> Yeah, so, you know, I think that was a pretty smooth path I would say after, you know, you graduated from undergrad to grad school and then when I got into Oracle first and VMware, I think both companies had the ratios were still, you know, pretty off. And I think they still are to a very large extent in this industry, but I think this industry in my experience does a fantastic job of, you know, bringing everybody and kind of embracing them and treating them at the same level. That was definitely my experience. And so that makes it very easy for self-confidence, for setting up a path for yourself to thrive. So that was it. >> Okay, so you got an undergraduate degree, okay, in computer science and a master's from Stanford in databases and distributed systems. >> That's right. >> So two degrees. Was that part of your pathway or you just decided, "I want to go right into school?" Did it go right after each other? How did that work out? >> Yeah, so when I went into school, undergrad there was no special major and I didn't quite know if I liked a particular subject or set of subjects or not. Even through grad school, first year it wasn't clear to me, but I think in second year I did start realizing that in general I was a fan of backend systems. I was never a front-end person. The backend distributed systems really were of interest to me because there's a lot of complex problems to solve, and especially databases and large scale distributed systems design in the context of database systems, you know, really started becoming a topic of interest for me. And I think luckily enough at Stanford there were just fantastic professors like Mendel Rosenblum who offered operating system class there, then started VMware and later on I was able to join the company and I took his class while at school and it was one of the most fantastic classes I've ever taken. So they really had and probably I think still do a fantastic curriculum when it comes to distributor systems. And I think that probably helped stoke that interest. >> How do you talk to the younger girls out there in elementary school and through? What's the advice as they start to get into computer science, which is changing and still evolving? There's backend, there's front-end, there's AI, there's data science, there's no code, low code, there's cloud. What's your advice when they say what's the playbook? >> Yeah, so I think two things I always say, and I share this with anybody who's looking to get into computer science or engineering for that matter, right? I think one is that it's, you know, it's important to not worry about what that end specialization's going to be, whether it's AI or databases or backend or front-end. It does naturally evolve and you lend yourself to a path where you will understand, you know, which systems, which aspect you like better. But it's very critical to start with getting the fundamentals well, right? Meaning all of the key coursework around algorithm, systems design, architecture, networking, operating system. I think it is just so crucial to understand those well, even though at times you make question is this ever going to be relevant and useful to me later on in my career? It really does end up helping in ways beyond, you know, you can describe. It makes you a much better engineer. So I think that is the most important aspect of, you know, I would think any engineering stream, but definitely true for computer science. Because there's also been a trend more recently, I think, which I'm not a big fan of, of sort of limited scoped learning, which is you decide early on that you're going to be, let's say a front-end engineer, which is fine, you know. Understanding that is great, but if you... I don't think is ideal to let that limit the scope of your learning when you are an undergrad phrase or grad school. Because later on it comes back to sort of bite you in terms of you not being able to completely understand how the systems work. >> It's a systems kind of thinking. You got to have that mindset of, especially now with cloud, you got distributed systems paradigm going to the edge. You got 5G, Mobile World Congress recently happened, you got now all kinds of IOT devices out there, IP of devices at the edge. Distributed computing is only getting more distributed. >> That's right. Yeah, that's exactly right. But the other thing is also happens... That happens in computer science is that the abstraction layers keep raising things up and up and up. Where even if you're operating at a language like Java, which you know, during some of my times of programming there was a period when it was popular, it already abstracts you so far away from the underlying system. So it can become very easier if you're doing, you know, Java script or UI programming that you really have no understanding of what's happening behind the scenes. And I think that can be pretty difficult. >> Yeah. It's easy to lean in and rely too heavily on the abstractions. I want to get your thoughts on blockers. In your career, have you had situations where it's like, "Oh, you're a woman, okay seat at the table, sit on the side." Or maybe people misunderstood your role. How did you deal with that? Did you have any of that? >> Yeah. So, you know, I think... So there's something really kind of personal to me, which I like to share a few times, which I think I believe in pretty strongly. And which is for me, sort of my personal growth began at a very early phase because my dad and he passed away in 2012, but throughout the time when I was growing up, I was his special little girl. And every little thing that I did could be a simple test. You know, not very meaningful but the genuine pride and pleasure that he felt out of me getting great scores in those tests sort of et cetera, and that I could see that in him, and then I wanted to please him. And through him, I think I build that confidence in myself that I am good at things and I can do good. And I think that just set the building blocks for me for the rest of my life, right? So, I believe very strongly that, you know, yes, there are occasions of unfair treatment and et cetera, but for the most part, it comes from within. And if you are able to be a confident person who is kind of leveled and understands and believes in your capabilities, then for the most part, the right things happen around you. So, I believe very strongly in that kind of grounding and in finding a source to get that for yourself. And I think that many women suffer from the biggest challenge, which is not having enough self-confidence. And I've even, you know, with everything that I said, I've myself felt that, experienced that a few times. And then there's a methodical way to get around it. There's processes to, you know, explain to yourself that that's actually not true. That's a fake feeling. So, you know, I think that is the most important aspect for women. >> I love that. Get the confidence. Find the source for the confidence. We've also been hearing about curiosity and building, you mentioned engineering earlier, love that term. Engineering something, like building something. Curiosity, engineering, confidence. This brings me to my next question for you. What do you think the key skills and qualities are needed to succeed in a technical role? And how do you develop to maintain those skills over time? >> Yeah, so I think that it is so critical that you love that technology that you are part of. It is just so important. I mean, I remember as an example, at one point with one of my buddies before we started Platform9, one of my buddies, he's also a fantastic computer scientists from VMware and he loves video games. And so he said, "Hey, why don't we try to, you know, hack up a video game and see if we can take it somewhere?" And so, it sounded cool to me. And then so we started doing things, but you know, something I realized very quickly is that I as a person, I absolutely hate video games. I've never liked them. I don't think that's ever going to change. And so I was miserable. You know, I was trying to understand what's going on, how to build these systems, but I was not enjoying it. So, I'm glad that I decided to not pursue that. So it is just so important that you enjoy whatever aspect of technology that you decide to associate yourself with. I think that takes away 80, 90% of the work. And then I think it's important to inculcate a level of discipline that you are not going to get sort of... You're not going to get jaded or, you know, continue with happy path when doing the same things over and over again, but you're not necessarily challenging yourself, or pushing yourself, or putting yourself in uncomfortable situation. I think a combination of those typically I think works pretty well in any technical career. >> That's a great advice there. I think trying things when you're younger, or even just for play to understand whether you abandon that path is just as important as finding a good path because at least you know that skews the value in favor of the choices. Kind of like math probability. So, great call out there. So I have to ask you the next question, which is, how do you keep up to date given all the changes? You're in the middle of a world where you've seen personal change in the past 10 years from OpenStack to now. Remember those days when I first interviewed you at OpenStack, I think it was 2012 or something like that. Maybe 10 years ago. So much changed. How do you keep up with technologies in your field and resources that you rely on for personal development? >> Yeah, so I think when it comes to, you know, the field and what we are doing for example, I think one of the most important aspect and you know I am product manager and this is something I insist that all the other product managers in our team also do, is that you have to spend 50% of your time talking to prospects, customers, leads, and through those conversations they do a huge favor to you in that they make you aware of the other things that they're keeping an eye on as long as you're doing the right job of asking the right questions and not just, you know, listening in. So I think that to me ends up being one of the biggest sources where you get tidbits of information, new things, et cetera, and then you pursue. To me, that has worked to be a very effective source. And then the second is, you know, reading and keeping up with all of the publications. You guys, you know, create a lot of great material, you interview a lot of people, making sure you are watching those for us you know, and see there's a ton of activities, new projects keeps coming along every few months. So keeping up with that, listening to podcasts around those topics, all of that helps. But I think the first one I think goes in a big way in terms of being aware of what matters to your customers. >> Awesome. Let me ask you a question. What's the most rewarding aspect of your job right now? >> So, I think there are many. So I think I love... I've come to realize that I love, you know, the high that you get out of being an entrepreneur independent of, you know, there's... In terms of success and failure, there's always ups and downs as an entrepreneur, right? But there is this... There's something really alluring about being able to, you know, define, you know, path of your products and in a way that can potentially impact, you know, a number of companies that'll consume your products, employees that work with you. So that is, I think to me, always been the most satisfying path, is what kept me going. I think that is probably first and foremost. And then the projects. You know, there's always new exciting things that we are working on. Even just today, there are certain projects we are working on that I'm super excited about. So I think it's those two things. >> So now we didn't get into how you started. You said you didn't want to do a startup and you got the big company. Your dad, your brother were entrepreneurs. How did you get into it? >> Yeah, so, you know, it was kind of surprising to me as well, but I think I reached a point of VMware after spending about eight years or so where I definitely packed hold and I could have pushed myself by switching to a completely different company or a different organization within VMware. And I was trying all of those paths, interviewed at different companies, et cetera, but nothing felt different enough. And then I think I was very, very fortunate in that my co-founders, Sirish Raghuram, Roopak Parikh, you know, Bich, you've met them, they were kind of all at the same journey in their careers independently at the same time. And so we would all eat lunch together at VMware 'cause we were on the same team and then we just started brainstorming on different ideas during lunchtime. And that's kind of how... And we did that almost for a year. So by the time that the year long period went by, at the end it felt like the most logical, natural next step to leave our job and to, you know, to start off something together. But I think I wouldn't have done that had it not been for my co-founders. >> So you had comfort with the team as you knew each other at VMware, but you were kind of a little early, (laughing) you had a vision. It's kind of playing out now. How do you feel right now as the wave is hitting? Distributed computing, microservices, Kubernetes, I mean, stuff you guys did and were doing. I mean, it didn't play out exactly, but directionally you were right on the line there. How do you feel? >> Yeah. You know, I think that's kind of the challenge and the fun part with the startup journey, right? Which is you can never predict how things are going to go. When we kicked off we thought that OpenStack is going to really take over infrastructure management space and things kind of went differently, but things are going that way now with Kubernetes and distributed infrastructure. And so I think it's been interesting and in every path that you take that does end up not being successful teaches you so much more, right? So I think it's been a very interesting journey. >> Yeah, and I think the cloud, certainly AWS hit that growth right at 2013 through '17, kind of sucked all the oxygen out. But now as it reverts back to this abstraction layer essentially makes things look like private clouds, but they're just essentially DevOps. It's cloud operations, kind of the same thing. >> Yeah, absolutely. And then with the edge things are becoming way more distributed where having a single large cloud provider is becoming even less relevant in that space and having kind of the central SaaS based management model, which is what we pioneered, like you said, we were ahead of the game at that time, is becoming sort of the most obvious choice now. >> Now you look back at your role at Stanford, distributed systems, again, they have world class program there, neural networks, you name it. It's really, really awesome. As well as Cal Berkeley, there was in debates with each other, who's better? But that's a separate interview. Now you got the edge, what are some of the distributed computing challenges right now with now the distributed edge coming online, industrial 5G, data? What do you see as some of the key areas to solve from a problem statement standpoint with edge and as cloud goes on-premises to essentially data center at the edge, apps coming over the top AI enabled. What's your take on that? >> Yeah, so I think... And there's different flavors of edge and the one that we focus on is, you know, what we call thick edge, which is you have this problem of managing thousands of as we call it micro data centers, rather than managing maybe few tens or hundreds of large data centers where the problem just completely shifts on its head, right? And I think it is still an unsolved problem today where whether you are a retailer or a telecommunications vendor, et cetera, managing your footprints of tens of thousands of stores as a retailer is solved in a very archaic way today because the tool set, the traditional management tooling that's designed to manage, let's say your data centers is not quite, you know, it gets retrofitted to manage these environments and it's kind of (indistinct), you know, round hole kind of situation. So I think the top most challenges are being able to manage this large footprint of micro data centers in the most effective way, right? Where you have latency solved, you have the issue of a small footprint of resources at thousands of locations, and how do you fit in your containerized or virtualized or other workloads in the most effective way? To have that solved, you know, you need to have the security aspects around these environments. So there's a number of challenges that kind of go hand-in-hand, like what is the most effective storage which, you know, can still be deployed in that compact environment? And then cost becomes a related point. >> Costs are huge 'cause if you move data, you're going to have cost. If you move compute, it's not as much. If you have an operating system concept, is the data and state or stateless? These are huge problems. This is an operating system, don't you think? >> Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's a distributed operating system where it's multiple layers, you know, of ways of solving that problem just in the context of data like you said having an intermediate caching layer so that you know, you still do just in time processing at those edge locations and then send some data back and that's where you can incorporate some AI or other technologies, et cetera. So, you know, just data itself is a multi-layer problem there. >> Well, it's great to have you on this program. Advice final question for you, for the folks watching technical degrees, most people are finding out in elementary school, in middle school, a lot more robotics programs, a lot more tech exposure, you know, not just in Silicon Valley, but all around, you're starting to see that. What's your advice for young girls and people who are getting either coming into the workforce re-skilled as they get enter, it's easy to enter now as they stay in and how do they stay in? What's your advice? >> Yeah, so, you know, I think it's the same goal. I have two little daughters and it's the same principle I try to follow with them, which is I want to give them as much exposure as possible without me having any predefined ideas about what you know, they should pursue. But it's I think that exposure that you need to find for yourself one way or the other, because you really never know. Like, you know, my husband landed into computer science through a very, very meandering path, and then he discovered later in his career that it's the absolute calling for him. It's something he's very good at, right? But so... You know, it's... You know, the reason why he thinks he didn't pick that path early is because he didn't quite have that exposure. So it's that exposure to various things, even things you think that you may not be interested in is the most important aspect. And then things just naturally lend themselves. >> Find your calling, superpower, strengths. Know what you don't want to do. (John chuckles) >> Yeah, exactly. >> Great advice. Thank you so much for coming on and contributing to our program for International Women's Day. Great to see you in this context. We'll see you on theCUBE. We'll talk more about Platform9 when we go KubeCon or some other time. But thank you for sharing your personal perspective and experiences for our audience. Thank you. >> Fantastic. Thanks for having me, John. Always great. >> This is theCUBE's coverage of International Women's Day, I'm John Furrier. We're talking to the leaders in the industry, from developers to the boardroom and everything in between and getting the stories out there making an impact. Thanks for watching. (bright upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Hi, everyone. Welcome to theCUBE's coverage of International Women's Day. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. As part of International Women's Day, we're featuring some of the leading women in business technology from developer to all types of titles and to the executive level. And one topic that's really important is called Getting a Seat at the Table, board makeup, having representation at corporate boards, private and public companies. It's been a big push. And former technology operating executive and corporate board member, she's a board machine Sue Barsamian, formerly with HPE, Hewlett Packard. Sue, great to see you. CUBE alumni, distinguished CUBE alumni. Thank you for coming on. >> Yes, I'm very proud of my CUBE alumni title. >> I'm sure it opens a lot of doors for you. (Sue laughing) We're psyched to have you on. This is a really important topic, and I want to get into the whole, as women advance up, and they're sitting on the boards, they can implement policy and there's governance. Obviously public companies have very strict oversight, and not strict, but like formal. Private boards have to operate, be nimble. They don't have to share all their results. But still, boards play an important role in the success of scaled up companies. So super important, that representation there is key. >> Yes. >> I want to get into that, but first, before we get started, how did you get into tech? How did it all start for you? >> Yeah, long time ago, I was an electrical engineering major. Came out in 1981 when, you know, opportunities for engineering, if you were kind, I went to Kansas State as an undergrad, and basically in those days you went to Texas and did semiconductors. You went to Atlanta and did communication satellites. You went to Boston or you went to Silicon Valley. And for me, that wasn't too hard a choice. I ended up going west and really, I guess what, embarked on a 40 year career in Silicon Valley and absolutely loved it. Largely software, but some time on the hardware side. Started out in networking, but largely software. And then, you know, four years ago transitioned to my next chapter, which is the corporate board director. And again, focused on technology software and cybersecurity boards. >> For the folks watching, we'll cut through another segment we can probably do about your operating career, but you rose through the ranks and became a senior operating executive at the biggest companies in the world. Hewlett Packard Enterprise, Hewlett Packard Enterprise and others. Very great career, okay. And so now you're kind of like, put that on pause, and you're moving on to the next chapter, which is being a board director. What inspired you to be a board director for multiple public companies and multiple private companies? Well, how many companies are you on? But what's the inspiration? What's the inspiration? First tell me how many board ships you're on, board seats you're on, and then what inspired you to become a board director? >> Yeah, so I'm on three public, and you are limited in terms of the number of publics that you can do to four. So I'm on three public, and I'm on four private from a tech perspective. And those range from, you know, a $4 billion in revenue public company down to a 35 person private company. So I've got the whole range. >> So you're like freelancing, I mean, what is it like? It's a full-time job, obviously. It's a lot of work involved. >> Yeah, yeah, it's. >> John: Why are you doing it? >> Well, you know, so I retired from being an operating executive after 37 years. And, but I loved, I mean, it's tough, right? It's tough these days, particularly with all the pressures out there in the market, not to mention the pandemic, et cetera. But I loved it. I loved working. I loved having a career, and I was ready to back off on, I would say the stresses of quarterly results and the stresses of international travel. You have so much of it. But I wasn't ready to back off from being involved and engaged and continuing to learn new things. I think this is why you come to tech, and for me, why I went to the valley to begin with was really that energy and that excitement, and it's like it's constantly reinventing itself. And I felt like that wasn't over for me. And I thought because I hadn't done boards before I retired from operating roles, I thought, you know, that would fill the bill. And it's honestly, it has exceeded expectations. >> In a good way. You feel good about where you're at and. >> Yeah. >> What you went in, what was the expectation going in and what surprised you? And were there people along the way that kind of gave you some pointers or don't do this, stay away from this. Take us through your experiences. >> Yeah, honestly, there is an amazing network of technology board directors, you know, in the US and specifically in the Valley. And we are all incredibly supportive. We have groups where we get together as board directors, and we talk about topics, and we share best practices and stories, and so I underestimated that, right? I thought I was going to, I thought I was going to enter this chapter where I would be largely giving back after 37 years. You've learned a little bit, right? What I underestimated was just the power of continuing to learn and being surrounded by so many amazing people. When, you know, when you do, you know, multiple boards, your learnings are just multiplied, right? Because you see not just one model, but you see many models. You see not just one problem, but many problems. Not just one opportunity, but many opportunities. And I underestimated how great that would be for me from a learning perspective and then your ability to share from one board to the other board because all of my boards are companies who are also quite close to each other, the executives collaborate. So that has turned out to be really exciting for me. >> So you had the stressful job. You rose to the top of the ranks, quarterly shot clock earnings, and it's hard charging. It's like, it's like, you know, being an athlete, as we say tech athlete. You're a tech athlete. Now you're taking that to the next level, which is now you're juggling multiple operational kind of things, but not with super pressure. But there's still a lot of responsibility. I know there's one board, you got compensation committee, I mean there's work involved. It's not like you're clipping coupons and having pizza. >> Yeah, no, it's real work. Believe me, it's real work. But I don't know how long it took me to not, to stop waking up and looking at my phone and thinking somebody was going to be dropping their forecast, right? Just that pressure of the number, and as a board member, obviously you are there to support and help guide the company and you feel, you know, you feel the pressure and the responsibility of what that role entails, but it's not the same as the frontline pressure every quarter. It's different. And so I did the first type. I loved it, you know. I'm loving this second type. >> You know, the retirement, it's always a cliche these days, but it's not really like what people think it is. It's not like getting a boat, going fishing or whatever. It's doing whatever you want to do, that's what retirement is. And you've chose to stay active. Your brain's being tested, and you're working it, having fun without all the stress. But it's enough, it's like going the gym. You're not hardcore workout, but you're working out with the brain. >> Yeah, no, for sure. It's just a different, it's just a different model. But the, you know, the level of conversations, the level of decisions, all of that is quite high. Which again, I like, yeah. >> Again, you really can't talk about some of the fun questions I want to ask, like what's the valuations like? How's the market, your headwinds? Is there tailwinds? >> Yes, yes, yes. It's an amazing, it's an amazing market right now with, as you know, counter indicators everywhere, right? Something's up, something's down, you know. Consumer spending's up, therefore interest rates go up and, you know, employment's down. And so or unemployment's down. And so it's hard. Actually, I really empathize with, you know, the, and have a great deal of respect for the CEOs and leadership teams of my board companies because, you know, I kind of retired from operating role, and then everybody else had to deal with running a company during a pandemic and then running a company through the great resignation, and then running a company through a downturn. You know, those are all tough things, and I have a ton of respect for any operating executive who's navigating through this and leading a company right now. >> I'd love to get your take on the board conversations at the end if we have more time, what the mood is, but I want to ask you about one more thing real quick before we go to the next topic is you're a retired operating executive. You have multiple boards, so you've got your hands full. I noticed there's a lot of amazing leaders, other female tech athletes joining boards, but they also have full-time jobs. >> Yeah. >> And so what's your advice? Cause I know there's a lot of networking, a lot of sharing going on. There's kind of a balance between how much you can contribute on the board versus doing the day job, but there's a real need for more women on boards, so yet there's a lot going on boards. What's the current state of the union if you will, state of the market relative to people in their careers and the stresses? >> Yeah. >> Cause you left one and jumped in all in there. >> Yeah. >> Some can't do that. They can't be on five boards, but they're on a few. What's the? >> Well, and you know, and if you're an operating executive, you wouldn't be on five boards, right? You would be on one or two. And so I spend a lot of time now bringing along the next wave of women and helping them both in their career but also to get a seat at the table on a board. And I'm very vocal about telling people not to do it the way I do it. There's no reason for it to be sequential. You can, you know, I thought I was so busy and was traveling all the time, and yes, all of that was true, but, and maybe I should say, you know, you can still fit in a board. And so, and what I see now is that your learnings are so exponential with outside perspective that I believe I would've been an even better operating executive had I done it earlier. I know I would've been an even better operating executive had I done it earlier. And so my advice is don't do it the way I did it. You know, it's worked out fine for me, but hindsight's 2020, I would. >> If you can go back and do a mulligan or a redo, what would you do? >> Yeah, I would get on a board earlier, full stop, yeah. >> Board, singular, plural? >> Well, I really, I don't think as an operating executive you can do, you could do one, maybe two. I wouldn't go beyond that, and I think that's fine. >> Yeah, totally makes sense. Okay, I got to ask you about your career. I know technical, you came in at that time in the market, I remember when I broke into the business, very male dominated, and then now it's much better. When you went through the ranks as a technical person, I know you had some blockers and definitely some, probably some people like, well, you know. We've seen that. How did you handle that? What were some of the key pivot points in your journey? And we've had a lot of women tell their stories here on theCUBE, candidly, like, hey, I was going to tell that professor, I'm going to sit in the front row. I'm going to, I'm getting two degrees, you know, robotics and aerospace. So, but they were challenged, even with the aspiration to do tech. I'm not saying that was something that you had, but like have you had experience like that, that you overcome? What were those key points and how did you handle them and how does that help people today? >> Yeah, you know, I have to say, you know, and not discounting that obviously this has been a journey for women, and there are a lot of things to overcome both in the workforce and also just balancing life honestly. And they're all real. There's also a story of incredible support, and you know, I'm the type of person where if somebody blocked me or didn't like me, I tended to just, you know, think it was me and like work harder and get around them, and I'm sure that some of that was potentially gender related. I didn't interpret it that way at the time. And I was lucky to have amazing mentors, many, many, many of whom were men, you know, because they were in the positions of power, and they made a huge difference on my career, huge. And I also had amazing female mentors, Meg Whitman, Ann Livermore at HPE, who you know well. So I had both, but you know, when I look back on the people who made a difference, there are as many men on the list as there are women. >> Yeah, and that's a learning there. Create those coalitions, not just one or the other. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. >> Well, I got to ask you about the, well, you brought up the pandemic. This has come up on some interviews this year, a little bit last year on the International Women's Day, but this year it's resonating, and I would never ask in an interview. I saw an interview once where a host asked a woman, how do you balance it all? And I was just like, no one asked men that. And so it's like, but with remote work, it's come up now the word empathy around people knowing each other's personal situation. In other words, when remote work happened, everybody went home. So we all got a glimpse of the backdrop. You got, you can see what their personal life was on Facebook. We were just commenting before we came on camera about that. So remote work really kind of opened up this personal side of everybody, men and women. >> Yeah. >> So I think this brings this new empathy kind of vibe or authentic self people call it. Is remote work an opportunity or a threat for advancement of women in tech? >> It's a much debated topic. I look at it as an opportunity for many of the reasons that you just said. First of all, let me say that when I was an operating executive and would try to create an environment on my team that was family supportive, I would do that equally for young or, you know, early to mid-career women as I did for early to mid-career men. And the reason is I needed those men, you know, chances are they had a working spouse at home, right? I needed them to be able to share the load. It's just as important to the women that companies give, you know, the partner, male or female, the partner support and the ability to share the love, right? So to me it's not just a woman thing. It's women and men, and I always tried to create the environment where it was okay to go to your soccer game. I knew you would be online later in the evening when the kids were in bed, and that was fine. And I think the pandemic has democratized that and made that, you know, made that kind of an everyday occurrence. >> Yeah the baby walks in. They're in the zoom call. The dog comes in. The leaf blower going on the outside the window. I've seen it all on theCUBE. >> Yeah, and people don't try to pretend anymore that like, you know, the house is clean, the dog's behaved, you know, I mean it's just, it's just real, and it's authentic, and I think that's healthy. >> Yeah. >> I do, you know, I also love, I also love the office, and you know, I've got a 31 year old and a soon to be 27 year old daughter, two daughters. And you know, they love going into the office, and I think about when I was their age, how just charged up I would get from being in the office. I also see how great it is for them to have a couple of days a week at home because you can get a few things done in between Zoom calls that you don't have to end up piling onto the weekend, and, you know, so I think it's a really healthy, I think it's a really healthy mix now. Most tech companies are not mandating five days in. Most tech companies are at two to three days in. I think that's a, I think that's a really good combination. >> It's interesting how people are changing their culture to get together more as groups and even events. I mean, while I got you, I might as well ask you, what's the board conversations around, you know, the old conferences? You know, before the pandemic, every company had like a user conference. Right, now it's like, well, do we really need to have that? Maybe we do smaller, and we do digital. Have you seen how companies are handling the in-person? Because there's where the relationships are really formed face-to-face, but not everyone's going to be going. But now certain it's clearly back to face-to-face. We're seeing that with theCUBE as you know. >> Yeah, yeah. >> But the numbers aren't coming back, and the numbers aren't that high, but the stakeholders. >> Yeah. >> And the numbers are actually higher if you count digital. >> Yeah, absolutely. But you know, also on digital there's fatigue from 100% digital, right? It's a hybrid. People don't want to be 100% digital anymore, but they also don't want to go back to the days when everybody got on a plane for every meeting, every call, every sales call. You know, I'm seeing a mix on user conferences. I would say two-thirds of my companies are back, but not at the expense level that they were on user conferences. We spend a lot of time getting updates on, cause nobody has put, interestingly enough, nobody has put T&E, travel and expense back to pre-pandemic levels. Nobody, so everybody's pulled back on number of trips. You know, marketing events are being very scrutinized, but I think very effective. We're doing a lot of, and, you know, these were part of the old model as well, like some things, some things just recycle, but you know, there's a lot of CIO and customer round tables in regional cities. You know, those are quite effective right now because people want some face-to-face, but they don't necessarily want to get on a plane and go to Las Vegas in order to do it. I mean, some of them are, you know, there are a lot of things back in Las Vegas. >> And think about the meetings that when you were an operating executive. You got to go to the sales kickoff, you got to go to this, go to that. There were mandatory face-to-faces that you had to go to, but there was a lot of travel that you probably could have done on Zoom. >> Oh, a lot, I mean. >> And then the productivity to the family impact too. Again, think about again, we're talking about the family and people's personal lives, right? So, you know, got to meet a customer. All right. Salesperson wants you to get in front of a customer, got to fly to New York, take a red eye, come on back. Like, I mean, that's gone. >> Yeah, and oh, by the way, the customer doesn't necessarily want to be in the office that day, so, you know, they may or may not be happy about that. So again, it's and not or, right? It's a mix. And I think it's great to see people back to some face-to-face. It's great to see marketing and events back to some face-to-face. It's also great to see that it hasn't gone back to the level it was. I think that's a really healthy dynamic. >> Well, I'll tell you that from our experience while we're on the topic, we'll move back to the International Women's Day is that the productivity of digital, this program we're doing is going to be streamed. We couldn't do this face-to-face because we had to have everyone fly to an event. We're going to do hundreds of stories that we couldn't have done. We're doing it remote. Because it's better to get the content than not have it. I mean it's offline, so, but it's not about getting people to the event and watch the screen for seven hours. It's pick your interview, and then engage. >> Yeah. >> So it's self-service. So we're seeing a lot, the new user experience kind of direct to consumer, and so I think there will be an, I think there's going to be a digital first class citizen with events, so that that matches up with the kind of experience, but the offline version. Face-to-face optimized for relationships, and that's where the recruiting gets done. That's where, you know, people can build these relationships with each other. >> Yeah, and it can be asynchronous. I think that's a real value proposition. It's a great point. >> Okay, I want to get, I want to get into the technology side of the education and re-skilling and those things. I remember in the 80s, computer science was software engineering. You learned like nine languages. You took some double E courses, one or two, and all the other kind of gut classes in school. Engineering, you had the four class disciplines and some offshoots of specialization. Now it's incredible the diversity of tracks in all engineering programs and computer science and outside of those departments. >> Yeah. >> Can you speak to the importance of STEM and the diversity in the technology industry and how this brings opportunity to lower the bar to get in and how people can stay in and grow and keep leveling up? >> Yeah, well look, we're constantly working on how to, how to help the incoming funnel. But then, you know, at a university level, I'm on the foundation board of Kansas State where I got my engineering degree. I was also Chairman of the National Action Council for Minorities in Engineering, which was all about diversity in STEM and how do you keep that pipeline going because honestly the US needs more tech resources than we have. And if you don't tap into the diversity of our entire workforce, we won't be able to fill that need. And so we focused a lot on both the funnel, right, that starts at the middle school level, particularly for girls, getting them in, you know, the situation of hands-on comfort level with coding, with robot building, you know, whatever gives them that confidence. And then keeping that going all the way into, you know, university program, and making sure that they don't attrit out, right? And so there's a number of initiatives, whether it's mentoring and support groups and financial aid to make sure that underrepresented minorities, women and other minorities, you know, get through the funnel and stay, you know, stay in. >> Got it. Now let me ask you, you said, I have two daughters. You have a family of girls too. Is there a vibe difference between the new generation and what's the trends that you're seeing in this next early wave? I mean, not maybe, I don't know how this is in middle school, but like as people start getting into their adult lives, college and beyond what's the current point of view, posture, makeup of the talent coming in? >> Yeah, yeah. >> Certain orientations, do you see any patterns? What's your observation? >> Yeah, it's interesting. So if I look at electrical engineering, my major, it's, and if I look at Kansas State, which spends a lot of time on this, and I think does a great job, but the diversity of that as a major has not changed dramatically since I was there in the early 80s. Where it has changed very significantly is computer science. There are many, many university and college programs around the country where, you know, it's 50/50 in computer science from a gender mix perspective, which is huge progress. Huge progress. And so, and to me that's, you know, I think CS is a fantastic degree for tech, regardless of what function you actually end up doing in these companies. I mean, I was an electrical engineer. I never did core electrical engineering work. I went right into sales and marketing and general management roles. So I think, I think a bunch of, you know, diverse CS graduates is a really, really good sign. And you know, we need to continue to push on that, but progress has been made. I think the, you know, it kind of goes back to the thing we were just talking about, which is the attrition of those, let's just talk about women, right? The attrition of those women once they got past early career and into mid-career then was a concern, right? And that goes back to, you know, just the inability to, you know, get it all done. And that I am hopeful is going to be better served now. >> Well, Sue, it's great to have you on. I know you're super busy. I appreciate you taking the time and contributing to our program on corporate board membership and some of your story and observations and opinions and analysis. Always great to have you and call you a contributor for theCUBE. You can jump on on one more board, be one of our board contributors for our analysts. (Sue laughing) >> I'm at capacity. (both laughing) >> Final, final word. What's the big seat at the table issue that's going well and areas that need to be improved? >> So I'll speak for my boards because they have made great progress in efficiency. You know, obviously with interest rates going up and the mix between growth and profitability changing in terms of what investors are looking for. Many, many companies have had to do a hard pivot from grow at all costs to healthy balance of growth and profit. And I'm very pleased with how my companies have made that pivot. And I think that is going to make much better companies as a result. I think diversity is something that has not been solved at the corporate level, and we need to keep working it. >> Awesome. Thank you for coming on theCUBE. CUBE alumni now contributor, on multiple boards, full-time job. Love the new challenge and chapter you're on, Sue. We'll be following, and we'll check in for more updates. And thank you for being a contributor on this program this year and this episode. We're going to be doing more of these quarterly, so we're going to move beyond once a year. >> That's great. (cross talking) It's always good to see you, John. >> Thank you. >> Thanks very much. >> Okay. >> Sue: Talk to you later. >> This is theCUBE coverage of IWD, International Women's Day 2023. I'm John Furrier, your host. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Hello, everyone. Welcome to theCUBE's special presentation of International Women's Day. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. Jenni Troutman is here, Director of Products and Services, and Training and Certification at AWS, and Heather Ruden, Director of Education Programs, Training and Certification. Thanks for coming on theCUBE and for the International Women's Day special program. >> Thanks so much for having us. >> So, I'll just get it out of the way. I'm a big fan of what you guys do. I've been shouting at the top of my lungs, "It's free. Get cloud training and you'll have a six figure job." Pretty much. I'm over amplifying. But this is really a big opportunity in the industry, education and the skills gap, and the skill velocities that's changing. New roles are coming on around cloud native, cloud native operators, cybersecurity. There's so much excitement going on around the industry, and all these open positions, and they need new talent. So you can't get a degree for some of these things. So, nope, it doesn't matter what school you went to, everyone's kind of level. This is a really big deal. So, Heather, share with us your thoughts as well on this topic. Jenni, you too. Like, where are you guys at? 'Cause this is a big opportunity for women and anyone to level up in the industry. >> Absolutely. So I'll jump in and then I'll hand it over to Jenni. We're your dream team here. We can talk about both sides of this. So I run a set of programs here at AWS that are really intended to help build the next generation of cloud builders. And we do that with a variety of programs, whether it is targeting young learners from kind of 12 and up. We have AWS GetIT that is designed to get women ambassadors or women mentors in front of girls 12 to 14 and get them curious about a career in STEM. We also have a program that is all digital online. It's available in 11 languages. It's got hundreds of courses. That's called AWS Educate that is designed to do exactly what you just talked about, expose the opportunities and start building cloud skills for learners at age 13 and up. They can go online and register with an email and start learning. We want them to understand not only what the opportunity is for them, but the ways that they can help influence and bring more diversity and more inclusion and into the cloud technology space, and just keep building all those amazing builders that we need here for our customers and partners. And those are the programs that I manage, but Jenni also has an amazing program, a set of programs. And so I'll hand it over to her as you get into the professional side of this things. >> So Jenni, you're on the product side. You've got the keys to the kingdom on all the materials and shaping it. What's your view on this? 'Cause this is a huge opportunity and it's always changing. What's the latest and greatest? >> It is a massive opportunity and to give you a sense, there was a study in '21 where IT executives said that talent availability is the biggest challenge to emerging tech adoption. 64% of IT executives said that up from only 4% the year before. So the challenge is growing really fast, which for everyone that's ready to go out there and learn and try something new is a massive opportunity. And that's really why I'm here. We provide all kinds of learning experiences for people across different cloud technologies to be able to not only gain the knowledge around cloud, but also the confidence to be able to build in the cloud. And so we look across different learner levels, different roles, different opportunities, and we provide those experiences where people can actually get hands-on in a totally risk-free environment and practice building in the cloud so they can go and be ready to get their certifications, their AWS certifications, give them the credentials to be able to show an employer they can do it, and then go out and get these jobs. It's really exciting. And we go kind of end to end from the very beginning. What is cloud? I want to know what it is all the way through to I can prove that I can build in the cloud and I'm ready for a job. >> So Jenni, you nailed that confidence word. I think I want to double click on that. And Heather, you talked about you're the dream team. You guys, you're the go to market, you bring this to the marketplace. Jenni, you get the products. This is the key, but to me the the international women days angle is, is that what I hear over and over again is that, "It's too technical. I'm not qualified." It can be scary. We had a guest on who has two double E degrees in robotics and aerospace and she's hard charging. She almost lost her confidence twice she said in her career. But she was hard charging. It can get scary, but also the ability to level up fast is just as good. So if you can break through that confidence and keep the curiosity and be a builder, talk about that dynamic 'cause you guys are in the middle of it, you're in the industry, how do you handle that? 'Cause I think that's a big thing that comes up over and over again. And confidence is not just women, it's men too. But women can always, that comes up as a theme. >> It is. It is a big challenge. I mean, I've struggled with it personally and I mentor a lot of women and that is the number one challenge that is holding women back from really being able to advance is the confidence to step out there and show what they can do. And what I love about some of the products we've put out recently is we have AWS Skill Builder. You can go online, you can get all kinds of free core training and if you want to go deeper, you can go deeper. And there's a lot of different options on there. But what it does is not only gives you that based knowledge, but you can actually go in. We have something called AWS Labs. You can go in and you can actually practice on the AWS console with the services that people are using in their jobs every day without any risk of doing something that is going to blow up in your face. You're not going to suddenly get this big AWS bill. You're not going to break something that's out there running. You just go in. It's your own little environment that gets wiped when you're done and you can practice. And there's lots of different ways to learn as well. So if you go in there and you're watching a video and to your point you're like, "Oh my gosh, this is too technical. I can't understand it. I don't know what I'm going to go do." You can go another route. There's something called AWS Cloud Quest. It's a game. You go in and it's like you're gaming and it walks you through. You're actually in a virtual world. You're walking through and it's telling you, "Hey, go build this and if you need help, here's hints and here's tips." And it continues to build on itself. So you're learning and you're applying practical skills and it's at your own pace. You don't have to watch somebody else talking that is going at a pace that maybe accelerates beyond what you're ready. You can do it at your own pace, you can redo it, you can try it again until you feel confident that you know it and you're really ready to move on to the next thing. Personally, I find that hugely valuable. I go in and do these myself and I sit there and I have a lot of engineers on my team, very smart people. And I have my own imposter syndrome. I get nervous to go talk to them. Like, are they going to think I'm totally lost? And so I go in and I learn some of this myself by experiment. And then I feel like, okay, now I can go ask them some intelligent questions and they're not going to be like, "Oh gosh, my leader is totally unaware of what we're doing." And so I think that we all struggle with confidence. I think everybody does, but I see it especially in women as I mentor them. And that's what I encourage them to do is go and on your own time, practice a bit, get a little bit of experience and once you feel like you can throw a couple words out there that you know what they mean and suddenly other people look at you like, "Oh, she knows what she's talking about." And you can kind of get past that feeling. >> Well Jenni, you nailed it. Heather, she just mentioned she's in the job and she's going and she's still leveling up. That's the end when you're in, but it's also the barriers to entry are lowering. You guys are doing a good job of getting people in, but also growing fast too. So there's two dynamics at play here. How do people do this? What's the playbook? Because I think that's really key, easy to get in. And then once you're in, you can level up fast at your own pace to ride the wave. And then there's new stuff coming. I mean, every re:Invent there's 5,000 announcements. So it's like zillion new things and AI taught now. >> re:Invent is a perfect example of that ongoing imposter syndrome or confidence check for all of us. I think something that that Jenni said too is we really try and meet learners where they are and make sure that we have the support, whether it's accessibility requirements or we have the content that is built for the age that we're talking to, or we have a workforce development program called re/Start that is for people that have very little tech experience and really want to talk about a career in cloud, but they need a little bit more handholding. They need a combination of instructor-led and digital. But then we have AWS educators, I mentioned. If you want to be more self-directed, all of these tools are intended to work well together and to be complimentary and to take you on a journey as a learner. And the more skills you have, the more you increase your knowledge, the more you can take on more. But meeting folks where they are with a variety of programs, tools, languages, and accessibility really helps ensure that we can do that for learners throughout the world. >> That's awesome. Let's get into it. Let's get into the roadmaps of people and their personas. And you guys can share the programs that you have and where people could fit in. 'Cause this comes up a lot when I talk to folks. There's the young person who's I'm a gamer or whatever, I want to get a job. I'm in high school or an elementary or I want to tinker around or I'm in college or I'm learning, I'm an entry level kind of entry. Then you have the re-skilling. I'm going to change my careers, I'm kind of bored, I want to do something compelling. How do I get into the cloud game? And then the advanced re-skill is I want to get into cyber and AI and then there's other. Could you break down? Did I get that right or did I miss anything? And then what's available for those kind of lanes? So those persona lanes? >> Well, let's see, I could start with maybe the high schooler stuff and then we can bring Jenni in as well. I would say a great place to start for anyone is aws.amazon.com/training. That's going to give them the full suite of options that they could take on. If you're in high school, you can go onto AWS Educate. All you need is an email. And if you're 13 years and older, you can start exploring the types of jobs that are available in the cloud and you could start taking some introductory classes. You can do some of those labs in a safe environment that Jenni mentioned. That's a great place to start. If you are in an environment where you have an educator that is willing to go on this with you, this journey with you, we have this AWS GetIT program that is, again, educator-led. So it's an afterschool or it's an a program where we match mentors and students up with cloud professionals and they do some real-time experimentation. They build an app, they work on things together, and do a presentation at the end. The other thing I would say too is that if you are in a university, I would double check and see if the AWS Academy curriculum is already in your university. And if so, explore some of those classes there. We have instructor-led, educator-ready. course curriculum that we've designed that help people get to those certifications and get closer to those jobs and as well as hopefully then lead people right into skill builder and all the things that Jenni talked about to help them as they start out in a professional environment. >> So is the GetIT, is that an instructor-led that the person has to find someone for? Or is this available for them? >> It is through teachers. It's through educators. We are in, we've reached over 19,000 students. We're available in eight countries. There are ways for educators to lead this, but we want to make sure that we are helping the kids be successful and giving them an educator environment to do that. If they want to do it on their own, then they can absolutely go through AWS Educate or even and to explore where they want to get started. >> So what about someone who's educated in their middle of their career, might want to switch from being a biologist to a cloud cybersecurity guru or a cloud native operator? >> Yeah, so in that case, AWS re/Start is one of the great program for them to explore. We run that program with collaborating organizations in 160 cities in 80 countries throughout the world. That is a multi-week cohort-based program where we do take folks through a very clear path towards certification and job skilling that will help them get into those opportunities. Over 98% of the cohorts, the graduates of those cohorts get an interview and are hopefully on their path to getting a job. So that really has global reach. The partnership with collaborating organizations helps us ensure that we find communities that are often unreached by cloud skills training and we really work to keep a diverse focus on those cohorts and bring those folks into the cloud. >> Okay. Jenni, you've got the Skill Builder action here. What's going on on your side? Because you must have to manage all the change. I mean, AI is hot right now. I'm sure you're cranking away on curriculum and content for SageMaker, large language models, computer vision, cybersecurity. >> We do. There are a lot of options. >> How is your world? Tell us about what people can take out of way from your side. >> Yeah. So a great way to think about it is if they're already out in the workforce or they're entering the workforce, but they are technical, have technical skills is what are the roles that are interesting in the technologies that are interesting. Because the way we put out our training and our certifications is aligned to paths. So if you're look interested in a specific role. If you're interested in architecting a cloud environment or in security as you mentioned, and you want to go deep in security, there are AWS certifications that give you that. If you achieve them, they're very difficult. But if you work to them and achieve them, they give you the credential that you can take to an employer and say, "Look, I can do this job." And they are in very high demand. In fact that's where if you look at some of the publications that have come out, they talk about, what are people making if they have different certifications? What are the most in-demand certifications that are out there? And those are what help people get jobs. And so you identify what is that role or that technology area I want to learn. And then you have multiple options for how you build those skills depending on how you want to learn. And again, that's really our focus, is on providing experiences based on how people learn and making it accessible to them. 'Cause not everybody wants to learn in the same way. And so there is AWS Skill Builder where people can go learn on their own that is really great particularly for people who maybe are already working and have to learn in the evenings, on the weekends. People who like to learn at their own pace, who just want to be hands-on, but are self-starters. And they can get those whole learning plans through there all the way aligned to the certification and then they can go get their certification. There's also classroom training. So a lot of people maybe want to do continuous learning through an online, but want to go really deep with an expert in the room and maybe have a more focused period of time if they can go for a couple days. And so they can do classroom training. We provide a lot of classroom training. We have partners all over the globe who provide classroom training. And so there's that and what we find to be the most powerful is when you couple the two. If you can really get deep, you have an expert, you can ask questions, but first before you go do that, you get some of that foundational that you've kind of learned on your own. And then after you go back and reinforce, you go back online, you try out things that maybe you learned in the classroom, but you didn't quite, you hadn't used it enough yet to quite know how to do it. Now you can go back and actually use it, experiment and play around. And so we really encourage that kind of, figure out what are some areas you're interested in, go learn it and then go get a job and continue to learn because then once you learn that first area, you start to build confidence in it. Suddenly other areas become interesting. 'Cause as you said, cloud is changing fast. And once you learn a space, first of all you have to keep going back to stay up on it as it changes. But you quickly find that there are other areas that are really interesting too. >> I've observed that the training side, it's just like cloud itself, it's very agile. You can get hands-on quickly, you don't need to take a class, and then get in weeks later. You're in it like it's real time. So you're immersed in gamification and all kinds of ways to funnel into the either advanced tracks and certification. So you guys do a great job and I want to give you props for that and a shout out. The question I have for you guys is can you scope the opportunity for these certifications and opportunities for women in particular? What are some of the top jobs pulling down? Scope out the opportunity because I think when people hear that they really fall out of their chair, they go, "Wow, I didn't know I could make $200,000 doing cybersecurity." Well, yeah or maybe more. I just made the number, I don't actually know, but like I know people do make that much in cyber, but there are huge financial opportunities with certifications and education. Can you scope that order of magnitude? Can you share any data? >> Yeah, so in the US they certainly are. Certifications on average aligned to six digit type jobs. And if you go out and do a search, there are research studies out there that are refreshed every year that say what are the top IT industry certifications and how much money do they make? And the reason I don't put a number out there is because it's constantly changing and in fact it keeps going up, >> It's going up, not going down. >> But I would encourage people to do that quick search. What are the top IT industry certifications. Again, based on the country you're in, it makes a difference. But if you're US, there's a lot of data out there for the US and then there is some for other countries as well around how much on average people make. >> Do you list like the higher level certifications, stack rank them in terms of order? Like say, I'm a type A personnel, I want to climb Mount Everest, I want to get the highest level certification. How do I know that? Is it like laddered up or is like how do you guys present that? >> Yeah, so we have different types of certifications. There is a foundational, which we call the cloud practitioner. That one is more about just showing that you know something about cloud. It's not aligned to a specific job role. But then we have what we call associate level certifications, which are aligned to roles. So there's the solutions architect, cloud developer, so developer operations. And so you can tell by the role and associate is kind of that next level. And then the roles often have a professional level, which is even more advanced. And basically that's saying you're kind of an Uber expert at that point. And then there are technology specialties, which are less about a specific role, although some would argue a security technology specialty might align very well to a security role, but they're more about showing the technology. And so typically, it goes foundational, advanced, professional, and then the specialties are more on the side. They're not aligned, but they're deep. They're deep within that area. >> So you can go dig and pick your deep dive and jump into where you're comfortable. Heather, talk about the commitment in terms of dollars. I know Amazon's flaunted some numbers like 30 million or something, people they want to have trained, hundreds of millions of dollars in investment. This is key, obviously, more people trained on cloud, more operators, more cloud usage, obviously. I see the business connection. What's the women relationship to the numbers? Or what the experience is? How do you guys see that? Obviously International Women's Day, get the confidence, got the curiosity. You're a builder, you're in. It's that easy. >> It doesn't always feel that way, I'm sure to everybody, but we'd like to think that it is. Amazon and AWS do invest hundreds of millions of dollars in free training every year that is accessible to everyone out there. I think that sometimes the hardest obstacles to get overcome are getting started and we try and make it as easy as possible to get started with the tools that we've talked about already today. We run into plenty of cohorts of women as part of our re/Start program that are really grateful for the opportunity to see something, see a new way of thinking, see a new opportunity for them. We don't necessarily break out our funding by women versus men. We want to make sure that we are open and diverse for everybody to come in and get the training that they need to. But we definitely want to make sure that we are accessible and available to women and all genders outside of the US and inside the US. >> Well, I know the number's a lot lower than they should be and that's obviously why we're promoting this heavily. There's a lot more interest I see in tech. So digital transformation is gender neutral. I mean, it's like the world eats software and uses software, uses the cloud. So it has to get 50/50 in my opinion. So you guys do a great job. Now that we're done kind of promoting Amazon, which I wanted to do 'cause I think it's super important. Let's talk about you guys. What got you guys involved in tech? What was the inspiration and share some stories about your experiences and advice for folks watching? >> So I've always been in traditionally male dominated roles. I actually started in aviation and then moved to tech. And what I found was I got a mentor early on, a woman who was senior to me and who was kind of who I saw as the smartest person out there. She was incredibly smart, she was incredibly kind, and she was always lifting women up. And I kind of latched onto her and followed her around and she was such an amazing mentor. She brought me from throughout tech, from company to company, job to job, was always positioning me in front of other people as the go-to person. And I realized, "Wow, I want to be like her." And so that's been my focus as well in tech is you can be deeply technical in tech or you can be not deeply technical and be in tech and you can be successful both ways, but the way you're going to be most successful is if you find other people, build them up and help put them out in front. And so I personally love to mentor women and to put them in places where they can feel comfortable being out in front of people. And that's really been my career. I have tried to model her approach as much as I can. >> That's a really interesting observation. It's the pattern we've been seeing in all these interviews for the past two years of doing the International Women's Day is that networking, mentoring and sponsorship are one thing. So it's all one thing. It's not just mentoring. It's like people think, "Oh, just mentoring. What does that mean? Advice?" No, it's sponsorship, it's lifting people up, creating a keiretsu, creating networks. Really important. Heather, what's your experience? >> Yeah, I'm sort of the example of somebody who never thought they'd be in tech, but I happened to graduate from college in the Silicon Valley in the early nineties and next thing you know, it's more than a couple years later and I'm deeply in tech and I think it when we were having the conversation about confidence and willingness to learn and try that really spoke to me as well. I think I had to get out of my own way sometimes and just be willing to not be the smartest person in the room and just be willing to ask a lot of questions. And with every opportunity to ask questions, I think somebody, I ended up with good mentors, male and female, that saw the willingness to ask questions and the willingness to be humble in my approach to learning. And that really helped. I'm also very aware that nobody's journey is the same and I need to create an environment on my team and I need to be a role model within AWS and Amazon for allowing people to show up in the way that they're going to be most successful. And sometimes that will mean giving them learning opportunities. Sometimes that will be hooking them up with a mentor. Sometimes that will be giving them the freedom to do what they need for their family or their personal life. And modeling that behavior regardless of gender has always been how I choose to show up and what I ask my leaders to do. And the more we can do that, I've seen the team been able to grow and flourish in that way and support our entire team. >> I love that story. You also have a great leader, Maureen Lonergan, who I've met many conversations with, but also it starts at the top. Andy Jassy who can come across, he's kind of technical, he's dirty, he's a builder mentality. He has first principles and you're bringing up this first principles concept and whether that's passing it forward, what you've learned, having first principles helps in an organization. Can you guys talk about what that's like at your company? 'Cause everyone's different. And sometimes whether, and I sometimes I worry about what I say, but I also have my first principles. So talk about how principles matter in how you guys interface with others and letting people be their authentic self. >> Yeah, I'll jump in Jenni and then you can. The Amazon leadership principles are super important to how we interact with each other and it really does provide a set of guidelines for how we work with each other and how we work for our customers and with our partners. But most of all it gives us a common language and a common set of expectations. And I will be honest, they're not always easy. When you come from an environment that tends to be less open to feedback and less open to direct conversations than you find at Amazon, it could take a while to get used to that, but for me at least, it was extremely empowering to have those tools and those principles as guidance for how to operate and to gain the confidence in using them. I've also been able to participate in hundreds and hundreds of interviews in the time that I've been here as part of an interview team of bar raisers. I think that really helps us understand whether or not folks are going to be successful at AWS and at Amazon and helps them understand if they're going to be able to be successful. >> Bar raising is an Amazon term and it's gender neutral, right Jenni? >> It is gender neutral. >> Bar is a bar, it raises. >> That's right. And it's funny, we say that our culture here is peculiar. And when I started, I had been in consulting for several years, so I worked with a lot of different companies in tech and so I thought I'd seen everything and I came here and I went, "Hmm." I see what they mean by peculiar. It is very different environment. >> In the fullness of time, it'll all work out. >> That's right, that's right. Well and it's funny because when you first started, it's a lot to figure out to how to operate in an environment where people do use a 16 leadership principles. I've worked at a lot of companies with three or four core values and nobody can state those. We could state all 16 leadership principles and we use them in our regular everyday dialogue. That is an awkward thing when you first come to have people saying, "Oh, I'm going to use bias for action in this situation and I'm going to go move fast. And they're actually used in everyday conversations. But after a couple years suddenly you realize, "Oh, I'm doing that." And maybe even sometimes at the dinner table I'm doing that, which can get to be a bit much. But it creates an environment where we can all be different. We can all think differently. We can all have different ways of doing things, but we have a common overall approach to what we're trying to achieve. And that's really, it gives us a good framework for that. >> Jenni, it's great insight. Heather, thank you so much for sharing your stories. We're going to do this not once a year. We're going to continue this Women in Tech program every quarter. We'll check in with you guys and find out what's new. And thank you for what you do. We appreciate that getting the word out and really is an opportunity for everyone with education and cloud and it's only going to get more opportunities at the edge in AI and so much more tech. Thank you for coming on the program. >> Thank you for having us. >> Thanks, John. >> Thank you. That's the International Women's Day segment here with leaders from AWS. I'm John Furrier. Thanks for watching. (upbeat musiC)

>> Narrator: TheCUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies, creating technologies that drive human progress. (upbeat music intro) (logo background tingles) >> Hi everybody, welcome back to day three of MWC23, my name is Dave Vellante and we're here live at the Theater of Barcelona, Lisa Martin, David Nicholson, John Furrier's in our studio in Palo Alto. Lot of buzz at the show, the Mobile World Daily Today, front page, Netflix chief hits back in fair share row, Greg Peters, the co-CEO of Netflix, talking about how, "Hey, you guys want to tax us, the telcos want to tax us, well, maybe you should help us pay for some of the content. Your margins are higher, you have a monopoly, you know, we're delivering all this value, you're bundling Netflix in, from a lot of ISPs so hold on, you know, pump the brakes on that tax," so that's the big news. Lockheed Martin, FOSS issues, AI guidelines, says, "AI's not going to take over your job anytime soon." Although I would say, your job's going to be AI-powered for the next five years. We're going to talk about data, we've been talking about the disaggregation of the telco stack, part of that stack is a data layer. John Kreisa is here, the CMO of Couchbase, John, you know, we've talked about all week, the disaggregation of the telco stacks, they got, you know, Silicon and operating systems that are, you know, real time OS, highly reliable, you know, compute infrastructure all the way up through a telemetry stack, et cetera. And that's a proprietary block that's really exploding, it's like the big bang, like we saw in the enterprise 20 years ago and we haven't had much discussion about that data layer, sort of that horizontal data layer, that's the market you play in. You know, Couchbase obviously has a lot of telco customers- >> John: That's right. >> We've seen, you know, Snowflake and others launch telco businesses. What are you seeing when you talk to customers at the show? What are they doing with that data layer? >> Yeah, so they're building applications to drive and power unique experiences for their users, but of course, it all starts with where the data is. So they're building mobile applications where they're stretching it out to the edge and you have to move the data to the edge, you have to have that capability to deliver that highly interactive experience to their customers or for their own internal use cases out to that edge, so seeing a lot of that with Couchbase and with our customers in telco. >> So what do the telcos want to do with data? I mean, they've got the telemetry data- >> John: Yeah. >> Now they frequently complain about the over-the-top providers that have used that data, again like Netflix, to identify customer demand for content and they're mopping that up in a big way, you know, certainly Amazon and shopping Google and ads, you know, they're all using that network. But what do the telcos do today and what do they want to do in the future? They're all talking about monetization, how do they monetize that data? >> Yeah, well, by taking that data, there's insight to be had, right? So by usage patterns and what's happening, just as you said, so they can deliver a better experience. It's all about getting that edge, if you will, on their competition and so taking that data, using it in a smart way, gives them that edge to deliver a better service and then grow their business. >> We're seeing a lot of action at the edge and, you know, the edge can be a Home Depot or a Lowe's store, but it also could be the far edge, could be a, you know, an oil drilling, an oil rig, it could be a racetrack, you know, certainly hospitals and certain, you know, situations. So let's think about that edge, where there's maybe not a lot of connectivity, there might be private networks going in, in the future- >> John: That's right. >> Private 5G networks. What's the data flow look like there? Do you guys have any customers doing those types of use cases? >> Yeah, absolutely. >> And what are they doing with the data? >> Yeah, absolutely, we've got customers all across, so telco and transportation, all kinds of service delivery and healthcare, for example, we've got customers who are delivering healthcare out at the edge where they have a remote location, they're able to deliver healthcare, but as you said, there's not always connectivity, so they need to have the applications, need to continue to run and then sync back once they have that connectivity. So it's really having the ability to deliver a service, reliably and then know that that will be synced back to some central server when they have connectivity- >> So the processing might occur where the data- >> Compute at the edge. >> How do you sync back? What is that technology? >> Yeah, so there's, so within, so Couchbase and Couchbase's case, we have an autonomous sync capability that brings it back to the cloud once they get back to whether it's a private network that they want to run over, or if they're doing it over a public, you know, wifi network, once it determines that there's connectivity and, it can be peer-to-peer sync, so different edge apps communicating with each other and then ultimately communicating back to a central server. >> I mean, the other theme here, of course, I call it the software-defined telco, right? But you got to have, you got to run on something, got to have hardware. So you see companies like AWS putting Outposts, out to the edge, Outposts, you know, doesn't really run a lot of database to mind, I mean, it runs RDS, you know, maybe they're going to eventually work with companies like... I mean, you're a partner of AWS- >> John: We are. >> Right? So do you see that kind of cloud infrastructure that's moving to the edge? Do you see that as an opportunity for companies like Couchbase? >> Yeah, we do. We see customers wanting to push more and more of that compute out to the edge and so partnering with AWS gives us that opportunity and we are certified on Outpost and- >> Oh, you are? >> We are, yeah. >> Okay. >> Absolutely. >> When did that, go down? >> That was last year, but probably early last year- >> So I can run Couchbase at the edge, on Outpost? >> Yeah, that's right. >> I mean, you know, Outpost adoption has been slow, we've reported on that, but are you seeing any traction there? Are you seeing any nibbles? >> Starting to see some interest, yeah, absolutely. And again, it has to be for the right use case, but again, for service delivery, things like healthcare and in transportation, you know, they're starting to see where they want to have that compute, be very close to where the actions happen. >> And you can run on, in the data center, right? >> That's right. >> You can run in the cloud, you know, you see HPE with GreenLake, you see Dell with Apex, that's essentially their Outposts. >> Yeah. >> They're saying, "Hey, we're going to take our whole infrastructure and make it as a service." >> Yeah, yeah. >> Right? And so you can participate in those environments- >> We do. >> And then so you've got now, you know, we call it supercloud, you've got the on-prem, you've got the, you can run in the public cloud, you can run at the edge and you want that consistent experience- >> That's right. >> You know, from a data layer- >> That's right. >> So is that really the strategy for a data company is taking or should be taking, that horizontal layer across all those use cases? >> You do need to think holistically about it, because you need to be able to deliver as a, you know, as a provider, wherever the customer wants to be able to consume that application. So you do have to think about any of the public clouds or private networks and all the way to the edge. >> What's different John, about the telco business versus the traditional enterprise? >> Well, I mean, there's scale, I mean, one thing they're dealing with, particularly for end user-facing apps, you're dealing at a very very high scale and the expectation that you're going to deliver a very interactive experience. So I'd say one thing in particular that we are focusing on, is making sure we deliver that highly interactive experience but it's the scale of the number of users and customers that they have, and the expectation that your application's always going to work. >> Speaking of applications, I mean, it seems like that's where the innovation is going to come from. We saw yesterday, GSMA announced, I think eight APIs telco APIs, you know, we were talking on theCUBE, one of the analysts was like, "Eight, that's nothing," you know, "What do these guys know about developers?" But you know, as Daniel Royston said, "Eight's better than zero." >> Right? >> So okay, so we're starting there, but the point being, it's all about the apps, that's where the innovation's going to come from- >> That's right. >> So what are you seeing there, in terms of building on top of the data app? >> Right, well you have to provide, I mean, have to provide the APIs and the access because it is really, the rubber meets the road, with the developers and giving them the ability to create those really rich applications where they want and create the experiences and innovate and change the way that they're giving those experiences. >> Yeah, so what's your relationship with developers at Couchbase? >> John: Yeah. >> I mean, talk about that a little bit- >> Yeah, yeah, so we have a great relationship with developers, something we've been investing more and more in, in terms of things like developer relations teams and community, Couchbase started in open source, continue to be based on open source projects and of course, those are very developer centric. So we provide all the consistent APIs for developers to create those applications, whether it's something on Couchbase Lite, which is our kind of edge-based database, or how they can sync that data back and we actually automate a lot of that syncing which is a very difficult developer task which lends them to one of the developer- >> What I'm trying to figure out is, what's the telco developer look like? Is that a developer that comes from the enterprise and somebody comes from the blockchain world, or AI or, you know, there really doesn't seem to be a lot of developer talk here, but there's a huge opportunity. >> Yeah, yeah. >> And, you know, I feel like, the telcos kind of remind me of, you know, a traditional legacy company trying to get into the developer world, you know, even Oracle, okay, they bought Sun, they got Java, so I guess they have developers, but you know, IBM for years tried with Bluemix, they had to end up buying Red Hat, really, and that gave them the developer community. >> Yep. >> EMC used to have a thing called EMC Code, which was a, you know, good effort, but eh. And then, you know, VMware always trying to do that, but, so as you move up the stack obviously, you have greater developer affinity. Where do you think the telco developer's going to come from? How's that going to evolve? >> Yeah, it's interesting, and I think they're... To kind of get to your first question, I think they're fairly traditional enterprise developers and when we break that down, we look at it in terms of what the developer persona is, are they a front-end developer? Like they're writing that front-end app, they don't care so much about the infrastructure behind or are they a full stack developer and they're really involved in the entire application development lifecycle? Or are they living at the backend and they're really wanting to just focus in on that data layer? So we lend towards all of those different personas and we think about them in terms of the APIs that we create, so that's really what the developers are for telcos is, there's a combination of those front-end and full stack developers and so for them to continue to innovate they need to appeal to those developers and that's technology, like Couchbase, is what helps them do that. >> Yeah and you think about the Apples, you know, the app store model or Apple sort of says, "Okay, here's a developer kit, go create." >> John: Yeah. >> "And then if it's successful, you're going to be successful and we're going to take a vig," okay, good model. >> John: Yeah. >> I think I'm hearing, and maybe I misunderstood this, but I think it was the CEO or chairman of Ericsson on the day one keynotes, was saying, "We are going to monetize the, essentially the telemetry data, you know, through APIs, we're going to charge for that," you know, maybe that's not the best approach, I don't know, I think there's got to be some innovation on top. >> John: Yeah. >> Now maybe some of these greenfield telcos are going to do like, you take like a dish networks, what they're doing, they're really trying to drive development layers. So I think it's like this wild west open, you know, community that's got to be formed and right now it's very unclear to me, do you have any insights there? >> I think it is more, like you said, Wild West, I think there's no emerging standard per se for across those different company types and sort of different pieces of the industry. So consequently, it does need to form some more standards in order to really help it grow and I think you're right, you have to have the right APIs and the right access in order to properly monetize, you have to attract those developers or you're not going to be able to monetize properly. >> Do you think that if, in thinking about your business and you know, you've always sold to telcos, but now it's like there's this transformation going on in telcos, will that become an increasingly larger piece of your business or maybe even a more important piece of your business? Or it's kind of be steady state because it's such a slow moving industry? >> No, it is a big and increasing piece of our business, I think telcos like other enterprises, want to continue to innovate and so they look to, you know, technologies like, Couchbase document database that allows them to have more flexibility and deliver the speed that they need to deliver those kinds of applications. So we see a lot of migration off of traditional legacy infrastructure in order to build that new age interface and new age experience that they want to deliver. >> A lot of buzz in Silicon Valley about open AI and Chat GPT- >> Yeah. >> You know, what's your take on all that? >> Yeah, we're looking at it, I think it's exciting technology, I think there's a lot of applications that are kind of, a little, sort of innovate traditional interfaces, so for example, you can train Chat GPT to create code, sample code for Couchbase, right? You can go and get it to give you that sample app which gets you a headstart or you can actually get it to do a better job of, you know, sorting through your documentation, like Chat GPT can do a better job of helping you get access. So it improves the experience overall for developers, so we're excited about, you know, what the prospect of that is. >> So you're playing around with it, like everybody is- >> Yeah. >> And potentially- >> Looking at use cases- >> Ways tO integrate, yeah. >> Hundred percent. >> So are we. John, thanks for coming on theCUBE. Always great to see you, my friend. >> Great, thanks very much. >> All right, you're welcome. All right, keep it right there, theCUBE will be back live from Barcelona at the theater. SiliconANGLE's continuous coverage of MWC23. Go to siliconangle.com for all the news, theCUBE.net is where all the videos are, keep it right there. (cheerful upbeat music outro)

(soft music) >> Announcer: TheCUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies. Creating technologies that drive human progress. (upbeat music) >> Welcome back to Spain, everybody. We're here at the Fira in MWC23. Is just an amazing day. This place is packed. They said 80,000 people. I think it might even be a few more walk-ins. I'm Dave Vellante, Lisa Martin is here, David Nicholson. But right now we have the Analyst Hot Takes with three friends of theCUBE. Chris Lewis is back again with me in the co-host seat. Zeus Kerravala, analyst extraordinaire. Great to see you, Z. and Sarbjeet SJ Johal. Good to see you again, theCUBE contributor. And that's my new name for him. He says that is his nickname. Guys, thanks for coming back on. We got the all male panel, sorry, but it is what it is. So Z, is this the first time you've been on it at MWC. Take aways from the show, Hot Takes. What are you seeing? Same wine, new bottle? >> In a lot of ways, yeah. I mean, I was talking to somebody this earlier that if you had come from like MWC five years ago to this year, a lot of the themes are the same. Telco transformation, cloud. I mean, 5G is a little new. Sustainability is certainly a newer theme here. But I think it highlights just the difficulty I think the telcos have in making this transformation. And I think, in some ways, I've been unfair to them in some degree 'cause I've picked on them in the past for not moving fast enough. These are, you know, I think these kind of big transformations almost take like a perfect storm of things that come together to happen, right? And so, in the past, we had technologies that maybe might have lowered opex, but they're hard to deploy. They're vertically integrated. We didn't have the software stacks. But it appears today that between the cloudification of, you know, going to cloud native, the software stacks, the APIs, the ecosystems, I think we're actually in a position to see this industry finally move forward. >> Yeah, and Chris, I mean, you have served this industry for a long time. And you know, when you, when you do that, you get briefed as an analyst, you actually realize, wow, there's a lot of really smart people here, and they're actually, they have challenges, they're working through it. So Zeus was saying he's been tough on the industry. You know, what do you think about how the telcos have evolved in the last five years? >> I think they've changed enormously. I think the problem we have is we're always looking for the great change, the big step change, and there is no big step change in a way. What telcos deliver to us as individuals, businesses, society, the connectivity piece, that's changed. We get better and better and more reliable connectivity. We're shunting a load more capacity through. What I think has really changed is their attitude to their suppliers, their attitude to their partners, and their attitude to the ecosystem in which they play. Understanding that connectivity is not the end game. Connectivity is part of the emerging end game where it will include storage, compute, connect, and analytics and everything else. So I think the realization that they are not playing their own game anymore, it's a much more open game. And some things they will continue to do, some things they'll stop doing. We've seen them withdraw from moving into adjacent markets as much as we used to see. So a lot of them in the past went off to try and do movies, media, and a lot went way way into business IT stuff. They've mainly pulled back from that, and they're focusing on, and let's face it, it's not just a 5G show. The fixed environment is unbelievably important. We saw that during the pandemic. Having that fixed broadband connection using wifi, combining with cellular. We love it. But the problem as an industry is that the users often don't even know the connectivity's there. They only know when it doesn't work, right? >> If it's not media and it's not business services, what is it? >> Well, in my view, it will be enabling third parties to deliver the services that will include media, that will include business services. So embedding the connectivity all the way into the application that gets delivered or embedding it so the quality mechanism deliver the gaming much more accurately or, I'm not a gamer, so I can't comment on that. But no, the video quality if you want to have a high quality video will come through better. >> And those cohorts will pay for that value? >> Somebody will pay somewhere along the line. >> Seems fuzzy to me. >> Me too. >> I do think it's use case dependent. Like you look at all the work Verizon did at the Super Bowl this year, that's a perfect case where they could have upsold. >> Explain that. I'm not familiar with it. >> So Verizon provided all the 5G in the Super Bowl. They provided a lot of, they provided private connectivity for the coaches to talk to the sidelines. And that's a mission critical application, right? In the NFL, if one side can't talk, the other side gets shut down. You can't communicate with the quarterback or the coaches. There's a lot of risk at that. So, but you know, there's a case there, though, I think where they could have even made that fan facing. Right? And if you're paying 2000 bucks to go to a game, would you pay 50 bucks more to have a higher tier of bandwidth so you can post things on social? People that go there, they want people to know they were there. >> Every football game you go to, you can't use your cell. >> Analyst: Yeah, I know, right? >> All right, let's talk about developers because we saw the eight APIs come out. I think ISVs are going to be a big part of this. But it's like Dee Arthur said. Hey, eight's better than zero, I guess. Okay, so, but so the innovation is going to come from ISVs and developers, but what are your hot takes from this show and now day two, we're a day and a half in, almost two days in. >> Yeah, yeah. There's a thing that we have talked, I mentioned many times is skills gravity, right? Skills have gravity, and also, to outcompete, you have to also educate. That's another theme actually of my talks is, or my research is that to puts your technology out there to the practitioners, you have to educate them. And that's the only way to democratize your technology. What telcos have been doing is they have been stuck to the proprietary software and proprietary hardware for too long, from Nokia's of the world and other vendors like that. So now with the open sourcing of some of the components and a few others, right? And they're open source space and antenna, you know? Antennas are becoming software now. So with the invent of these things, which is open source, it helps us democratize that to the other sort of skirts of the practitioners, if you will. And that will bring in more applications first into the IOT space, and then maybe into the core sort of California, if you will. >> So what does a telco developer look like? I mean, all the blockchain developers and crypto developers are moving into generative AI, right? So maybe those worlds come together. >> You'd like to think though that the developers would understand everything's network centric today. So you'd like to think they'd understand that how the network responds, you know, you'd take a simple app like Zoom or something. If it notices the bandwidth changes, it should knock down the resolution. If it goes up it, then you can add different features and things and you can make apps a lot smarter that way. >> Well, G2 was saying today that they did a deal with Mercedes, you know this probably better than I do, where they're going to embed WebEx in the car. And if you're driving, it'll shut off the camera. >> Of course. >> I'm like, okay. >> I'll give you a better example though. >> But that's my point. Like, isn't there more that we can do? >> You noticed down on the SKT stand the little helicopter. That's a vertical lift helicopter. So it's an electric vertical lift helicopter. Just think of that for a second. And then think of the connectivity to control that, to securely control that. And then I was recently at an event with Zeus actually where we saw an air traffic control system where there was no people manning the tower. It was managed by someone remotely with all the cameras around them. So managing all of those different elements, we call it IOT, but actually it's way more than what we thought of as IOT. All those components connecting, communicating securely and safely. 'Cause I don't want that helicopter to come down on my head, do you? (men laugh) >> Especially if you're in there. (men laugh) >> Okay, so you mentioned sustainability. Everybody's talking about power. I don't know if you guys have a lot of experience around TCO, but I'm trying to get to, well, is this just because energy costs are so high, and then when the energy becomes cheap again, nobody's going to pay any attention to it? Or is this the real deal? >> So one of the issues around the, if we want to experience all that connectivity locally or that helicopter wants to have that connectivity, we have to ultimately build denser, more reliable networks. So there's a CapEx, we're going to put more base stations in place. We need more fiber in the ground to support them. Therefore, the energy consumption will go up. So we need to be more efficient in the use of energy. Simple as that. >> How much of the operating expense is energy? Like what percent of it? Is it 10%? Is it 20%? Is it, does anybody know? >> It depends who you ask and it depends on the- >> I can't get an answer to that. I mean, in the enterprise- >> Analyst: The data centers? >> Yeah, the data centers. >> We have the numbers. I think 10 to 15%. >> It's 10 to 12%, something like that. Is it much higher? >> I've got feeling it's 30%. >> Okay, so if it's 30%, that's pretty good. >> I do think we have to get better at understanding how to measure too. You know, like I was talking with John Davidson at Sysco about this that every rev of silicon they come out with uses more power, but it's a lot more dense. So at the surface, you go, well, that's using a lot more power. But you can consolidate 10 switches down to two switches. >> Well, Intel was on early and talking about how they can intelligently control the cores. >> But it's based off workload, right? That's the thing. So what are you running over it? You know, and so, I don't think our industry measures that very well. I think we look at things kind of boxed by box versus look at total consumption. >> Well, somebody else in theCUBE was saying they go full throttle. That the networks just say just full throttle everything. And that obviously has to change from the power consumption standpoint. >> Obviously sustainability and sensory or sensors from IOT side, they go hand in hand. Just simple examples like, you know, lights in the restrooms, like in public areas. Somebody goes in there and just only then turns. The same concept is being applied to servers and compute and storage and every aspects and to networks as well. >> Cell tower. >> Yeah. >> Cut 'em off, right? >> Like the serverless telco? (crosstalk) >> Cell towers. >> Well, no, I'm saying, right, but like serverless, you're not paying for the compute when you're not using it, you know? >> It is serverless from the economics point of view. Yes, it's like that, you know? It goes to the lowest level almost like sleep on our laptops, sleep level when you need more power, more compute. >> I mean, some of that stuff's been in networking equipment for a long time, it just never really got turned on. >> I want to ask you about private networks. You wrote a piece, Athenet was acquired by HPE right after Dell announced a relationship with Athenet, which was kind of, that was kind of funny. And so a good move, good judo move by by HP. I asked Dell about it, and they said, look, we're open. They said the right things. We'll see, but I think it's up to HP. >> Well, and the network inside Dell is. >> Yeah, okay, so. Okay, cool. So, but you said something in that article you wrote on Silicon Angle that a lot of people feel like P5G is going to basically replace wireless or cannibalize wireless. You said you didn't agree with that. Explain why? >> Analyst: Wifi. >> Wifi, sorry, I said wireless. >> No, that's, I mean that's ridiculous. Pat Gelsinger said that in his last VMware, which I thought was completely irresponsible. >> That it was going to cannibalize? >> Cannibalize wifi globally is what he said, right? Now he had Verizon on stage with him, so. >> Analyst: Wifi's too inexpensive and flexible. >> Wifi's cheap- >> Analyst: It's going to embed really well. Embedded in that. >> It's reached near ubiquity. It's unlicensed. So a lot of businesses don't want to manage their own spectrum, right? And it's great for this, right? >> Analyst: It does the job. >> For casual connectivity. >> Not today. >> Well, it does for the most part. Right now- >> For the most part. But never at these events. >> If it's engineered correctly, it will. Right? Where you need private 5G is when reliability is an absolute must. So, Chris, you and I visited the Port of Rotterdam, right? So they're putting 5G, private 5G there, but there's metal containers everywhere, right? And that's going to disrupt it. And so there are certain use cases where it makes sense. >> I've been in your basement, and you got some pretty intense equipment in there. You have private 5G in there. >> But for carpeted offices, it does not make sense to bring private. The economics don't make any sense. And you know, it runs hot. >> So where's it going to be used? Give us some examples of where we should be looking for. >> The early ones are obviously in mining, and you say in ports, in airports. It broadens cities because you've got so many moving parts in there, and always think about it, very expensive moving parts. The cranes in the port are normally expensive piece of kits. You're moving that, all that logistics around. So managing that over a distance where the wifi won't work over the distance. And in mining, we're going to see enormous expensive trucks moving around trying to- >> I think a great new use case though, so the Cleveland Browns actually the first NFL team to use it for facial recognition to enter the stadium. So instead of having to even pull your phone out, it says, hey Dave Vellante. You've got four tickets, can we check you all in? And you just walk through. You could apply that to airports. You could do put that in a hotel. You could walk up and check in. >> Analyst: Retail. >> Yeah, retail. And so I think video, realtime video analytics, I think it's a perfect use case for that. >> But you don't need 5G to do that. You could do that through another mechanism, couldn't you? >> You could do wire depending on how mobile you want to do it. Like in a stadium, you're pulling those things in and out all the time. You're moving 'em around and things, so. >> Yeah, but you're coming in at a static point. >> I'll take the contrary view here. >> See, we can't even agree on that. (men laugh) >> Yeah, I love it. Let's go. >> I believe the reliability of connection is very important, right? And the moving parts. What are the moving parts in wifi? We have the NIC card, you know, the wifi card in these suckers, right? In a machine, you know? They're bigger in size, and the radios for 5G are smaller in size. So neutralization is important part of the whole sort of progress to future, right? >> I think 5G costs as well. Yes, cost as well. But cost, we know that it goes down with time, right? We're already talking about 60, and the 5G stuff will be good. >> Actually, sorry, so one of the big boom areas at the moment is 4G LTE because the component price has come down so much, so it is affordable, you can afford to bring it all together. People don't, because we're still on 5G, if 5G standalone everywhere, you're not going to get a consistent service. So those components are unbelievably important. The skillsets of the people doing integration to bring them all together, unbelievably important. And the business case within the business. So I was talking to one of the heads of one of the big retail outlets in the UK, and I said, when are you going to do 5G in the stores? He said, well, why would I tear out all the wifi? I've got perfectly functioning wifi. >> Yeah, that's true. It's already there. But I think the technology which disappears in front of you, that's the best technology. Like you don't worry about it. You don't think it's there. Wifi, we think we think about that like it's there. >> And I do think wifi 5G switching's got to get easier too. Like for most users, you don't know which is better. You don't even know how to test it. And to your point, it does need to be invisible where the user doesn't need to think about it, right? >> Invisible. See, we came back to invisible. We talked about that yesterday. Telecom should be invisible. >> And it should be, you know? You don't want to be thinking about telecom, but at the same time, telecoms want to be more visible. They want to be visible like Netflix, don't they? I still don't see the path. It's fuzzy to me the path of how they're not going to repeat what happened with the over the top providers if they're invisible. >> Well, if you think about what telcos delivers to consumers, to businesses, then extending that connectivity into your home to help you support secure and extend your connection into Zeus's basement, whatever it is. Obviously that's- >> His awesome setup down there. >> And then in the business environment, there's a big change going on from the old NPLS networks, the old rigid structures of networks to SD1 where the control point is moved outside, which can be under control of the telco, could be under the control of a third party integrator. So there's a lot changing. I think we obsess about the relative role of the telco. The demand is phenomenal for connectivity. So address that, fulfill that. And if they do that, then they'll start to build trust in other areas. >> But don't you think they're going to address that and fulfill that? I mean, they're good at it. That's their wheelhouse. >> And it's a 1.6 trillion market, right? So it's not to be sniffed at. That's fixed on mobile together, obviously. But no, it's a big market. And do we keep changing? As long as the service is good, we don't move away from it. >> So back to the APIs, the eight APIs, right? >> I mean- >> Eight APIs is a joke actually almost. I think they released it too early. The release release on the main stage, you know? Like, what? What is this, right? But of course they will grow into hundreds and thousands of APIs. But they have to spend a lot of time and effort in that sort of context. >> I'd actually like to see the GSMA work with like AWS and Microsoft and VMware and software companies and create some standardization across their APIs. >> Yeah. >> I spoke to them yes- >> We're trying to reinvent them. >> Is that not what they're doing? >> No, they said we are not in the business of a defining standards. And they used a different term, not standard. I mean, seriously. I was like, are you kidding me? >> Let's face it, there aren't just eight APIs out there. There's so many of them. The TM forum's been defining when it's open data architecture. You know, the telcos themselves are defining them. The standards we talked about too earlier with Danielle. There's a lot of APIs out there, but the consistency of APIs, so we can bring them together, to bring all the different services together that will support us in our different lives is really important. I think telcos will do it, it's in their interest to do it. >> All right, guys, we got to wrap. Let's go around the horn here, starting with Chris, Zeus, and then Sarbjeet, just bring us home. Number one hot take from Mobile World Congress MWC23 day two. >> My favorite hot take is the willingness of all the participants who have been traditional telco players who looked inwardly at the industry looking outside for help for partnerships, and to build an ecosystem, a more open ecosystem, which will address our requirements. >> Zeus? >> Yeah, I was going to talk about ecosystem. I think for the first time ever, when I've met with the telcos here, I think they're actually, I don't think they know how to get there yet, but they're at least aware of the fact that they need to understand how to build a big ecosystem around them. So if you think back like 50 years ago, IBM and compute was the center of everything in your company, and then the ecosystem surrounded it. I think today with digital transformation being network centric, the telcos actually have the opportunity to be that center of excellence, and then build an ecosystem around them. I think the SIs are actually in a really interesting place to help them do that 'cause they understand everything top to bottom that I, you know, pre pandemic, I'm not sure the telcos were really understand. I think they understand it today, I'm just not sure they know how to get there. . >> Sarbjeet? >> I've seen the lot of RN demos and testing companies and I'm amazed by it. Everything is turning into software, almost everything. The parts which are not turned into software. I mean every, they will soon. But everybody says that we need the hardware to run something, right? But that hardware, in my view, is getting miniaturized, and it's becoming smaller and smaller. The antennas are becoming smaller. The equipment is getting smaller. That means the cost on the physicality of the assets is going down. But the cost on the software side will go up for telcos in future. And telco is a messy business. Not everybody can do it. So only few will survive, I believe. So that's what- >> Software defined telco. So I'm on a mission. I'm looking for the monetization path. And what I haven't seen yet is, you know, you want to follow the money, follow the data, I say. So next two days, I'm going to be looking for that data play, that potential, the way in which this industry is going to break down the data silos I think there's potential goldmine there, but I haven't figured out yet. >> That's a subject for another day. >> Guys, thanks so much for coming on. You guys are extraordinary partners of theCUBE friends, and great analysts and congratulations and thank you for all you do. Really appreciate it. >> Analyst: Thank you. >> Thanks a lot. >> All right, this is a wrap on day two MWC 23. Go to siliconangle.com for all the news. Where Rob Hope and team are just covering all the news. John Furrier is in the Palo Alto studio. We're rocking all that news, taking all that news and putting it on video. Go to theCUBE.net, you'll see everything on demand. Thanks for watching. This is a wrap on day two. We'll see you tomorrow. (soft music)

>> TheCUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies. Creating technologies that drive human progress. (upbeat music) >> Welcome back to Spain, everybody. We're here at the Theater Live and MWC 23. You're watching theCUBE's Continuous Coverage. This is day two. I'm Dave Vellante with my co-host, Dave Nicholson. Lisa Martin is also in the house. John Furrier out of our Palo Alto studio covering all the news. Check out silicon angle.com. Okay, we're going to dig into the core infrastructure here. We're going to talk a little bit about servers. Manya Rastogi is here. She's in technical marketing at Dell Technologies. And Abdel Bagegni is technical program manager at the Telecom Infra Project. Folks, welcome to theCUBE. Good to see you. >> Thank you. >> Abdel, what is the Telecom Infras Project? Explain to our audience. >> Yeah. So the Telecom Infra Project is a US based non-profit organization community that brings together different participants, suppliers, vendors, operators SI's together to accelerate the adoption of open RAN and open interface solutions across the globe. >> Okay. So that's the mission is open RAN adoption. And then how, when was it formed? Give us the background and some of the, some of the milestones so far. >> Yeah. So the telecom infra project was established five years ago from different vendor leaders and operators across the globe. And then the mission was to bring different players in to work together to accelerate the adoption of, of open RAN. Now open RAN has a lot of potential and opportunities, but in the same time there's challenges that we work together as a community to facilitate those challenges and overcome those barriers. >> And we've been covering all week just the disaggregation of the network. And you know, we've seen this movie sort of before playing out now in, in telecom. And Manya, this is obviously a compute intensive environment. We were at the Dell booth earlier this morning poking around, beautiful booth, lots of servers. Tell us what your angle is here in this marketplace. >> Yeah, so I would just like to say that Dell is kind of leading or accelerating the innovation at the telecom edge with all these ruggedized servers that we are offering. So just continuing the mission, like Abdel just mentioned for the open RAN, that's where a lot of focus will be from these servers will be, so XR 8000, it's it's going to be one of the star servers for telecom with, you know, offering various workloads. So it can be rerun, open run, multi access, edge compute. And it has all these different features with itself and the, if we, we can talk more about the performance gains, how it is based on the Intel CPUs and just try to solve the purpose like along with various vendors, the whole ecosystem solve this challenge for the open RAN. >> So Manya mentioned some of those infrastructure parts. Does and do, do you say TIP or T-I-P for short? >> Abdel: We say TIP. >> TIP. >> Abdel: T-I-P is fine as well. >> Does, does, does TIP or T-I-P have a certification process or a, or a set of guidelines that someone like Dell would either adhere to or follow to be sort of TIP certified? What does that look like? >> Yeah, of course. So what TIP does is TIP accredits what solutions that actually work in a real commercial grade environment. So what we do is we bring the different players together to come up with the most efficient optimized solution. And then it goes through a process that the community sets the, the, the criteria for and accepts. And then once this is accredited it goes into TIP exchange for other operators and the participants and the industry to adopt. So it's a well structured process and it's everything about how we orchestrate the industry to come together and set those requirements and and guidelines. Everything starts with a use case from the beginning. It's based on operators requirements, use cases and then those use cases will be translated into a solution that the industry will approve. >> So when you say operator, I can think of that sort of traditionally as the customer side of things versus the vendor side of things. Typically when organizations get together like TIP, the operator customer side is seeking a couple of things. They want perfect substitutes in all categories so that they could grind vendors down from a price perspective but they also want amazing innovation. How do you, how do you deliver both? >> Yeah, I mean that's an excellent question. We be pragmatic and we bring all players in one table to discuss. MNO's want this, vendors can provide a certain level and we bring them together and they discuss and come up with something that can be deployed today and future proof for the future. >> So I've been an enterprise technology observer for a long time and, you know, I saw the, the attempt to take network function virtualization which never really made much of an impact, but it was a it was the beginning of the enterprise players really getting into this market. And then I would see companies, whether it was Dell or HPE or Cisco, they'd take an X 86 server, put a cool name on it, edge something, and throw it over the fence and that didn't work so well. Now it's like, Manya. We're starting to get serious. You're building relationships. >> Manya: Totally. >> I mentioned we were at the Dell booth you're actually building purpose built systems now for this, this segment. Tell us what's different about this market and the products that you're developing for this market than say the commercial enterprise. >> So you are absolutely right, like, you know, kind of thinking about the journey, there has been a lot of, it has been going for a long time for all these improvements and towards going more open disaggregated and overall that kind of environment and what Dell brings together with our various partners and particularly if you talk about Intel. So these servers are powered by the players four gen intel beyond processors. And so what Intel is doing right now is providing us with great accelerators like vRAN Boost. So it increases performance like doubles what it was able to do before. And power efficiency, it has been an issue for a long, long time and it still continues but there is some improvement. For example 20% reduction overall with the power savings. So that's a step forward in that direction. And then we have done some of our like own testing as well with these servers and continuing that, you know it's not just telecom but also going towards Edge or inferencing like all these comes together not just X 30,000 but for example XR 56 10, 70, 76 20. So these are three servers which combines together to like form telecom and Edge and covers altogether. So that's what it is. >> Great, thank you. So Abdel, I mean I think generally people agree that in the fullness of time all radio access networks are going to be open, right? It's just a matter of okay, how do we get there? How do we make sure that it has the same, you know, quality of service characteristics. So where are we on on that, that journey from your perspective? And, and maybe you could project what, what it's going to look like over this decade. 'Cause it's going to take, you know, years. >> It's going to take a bit of time to mature and be a kind of a plug and play different units together. I think there was a lot, there was a, was a bit of over-promising in a few, in the last few years on the acceleration of open RAN deployment. That, well, a TIP is trying to do is trying to realize the pragmatic approach of the open run deployment. Now we know the innovation cannot happen when you have a kind of closed interfaces when you allow small players to be within the market and bring the value to, to the RAN areas. This is where the innovation happens. I think what would happen on the RAN side of things is that it would be driven by use cases and the operators. And the minute that the operators are no longer can depend on the closed interface vendors because there's use cases that fulfill that are requires some open RAN functionality, be the, the rig or the SMO layers and the different configurations of the rUSE getting the servers to the due side of things. This kind of modular scalability on this layer is when the RAN will, the Open RAN, would boost. This would happen probably, yeah. >> Go ahead. >> Yeah, it would happen in, in the next few years. Not next year or the year after but definitely something within the four to five years from now. >> I think it does feel like it's a second half of the decade and you feel like the, the the RAN intelligent controller is going to be a catalyst to actually sort of force the world into this open environment. >> Let's say that the Rick and the promises that were given to, to the sun 10 years ago, the Rick is realizing it and the closed RAN vendors are developing a lot on the Rick side more than the other parts of the, of the open RAN. So it will be a catalyst that would drive the innovation of open RAN, but only time will tell. >> And there are some naysayers, I mean I've seen some you know, very, very few, but I've seen some works that, oh the economics aren't there. It'll, it'll never get there. What, what do you, what do you say to that? That, that it won't ever, open RAN won't ever be as cost effective as you know, closed networks. >> Open RAN will open innovations that small players would have the opportunity to contribute to the, to the RAN space. This opportunity is not given to small players today. Open RAN provides this kind of opportunity and given that it's a path for innovation, then I would say that, you know, different perspectives some people are making sure that, you know the status quo is the way forward. But it would certainly put barriers on on innovation and this is not the way forward. >> Yeah. You can't protect the past in the future. My own personal opinion is, is that it doesn't have to be comparable from a, from a TCO perspective it can be close enough. It's the innovative, same thing with like you watch the, the, the adoption of Cloud. >> Exactly. >> Like cloud was more expensive it's always more expensive to rent, but people seem to be doing public Cloud, you know, because of the the innovation capabilities and the developer capabilities. Is that a fair analogy in this space, do you think? >> I mean this is what all technologies happens. >> Yeah. >> Right? It starts with a quite costly and then the the cost will start dropping down. I mean the, the cost of, of a megabyte two decades ago is probably higher than what it costly terabyte. So this is how technology evolves and it's any kind of comparison, either copper or even the old generation, the legacy generations could be a, a valid comparison. However, they need to be at a market demand for something like that. And I think the use cases today with what the industry is is looking for have that kind of opportunity to pull this kind of demand. But, but again, it needs to go work close by the what happens in the technology space, be it, you know we always talk about when we, we used to talk about 5G, there was a lot of hypes going on there. But I think once it realized in, in a pragmatic, in a in a real life situation, the minutes that governments decide to go for autonomous vehicles, then you would have limitations on the current closed RAN infrastructures and you would definitely need something to to top it up on the- >> I mean, 5G needs open RAN, I mean that's, you know not going to happen without it. >> Exactly. >> Yeah, yeah. But, but what is, but what would you say the most significant friction is between here and the open RAN nirvana? What are, what are the real hurdles that need to be overcome? There's obviously just the, I don't want to change we've been doing this the same way forever, but what what are the, what are the real, the legitimate concerns that people have when we start talking about open RAN? >> So I think from a technology perspective it will be solved. All of the tech, I mean there's smart engineers in the world today that will fix, you know these kind of problems and all of the interability, interruptability issues and, and all of that. I think it's about the mindset, the, the interfaces between the legacy core and RAN has been became more fluid today. We don't have that kind of a hard line between these kind of different aspects. We have the, the MEC coming closer to the RAN, we have the RAN coming closer to the Core, and we have the service based architectures in the Core. So these kind of things make it needs a paradigm shift between how operators that would need to tackle the open RAN space. >> Are there specific deployment requirements for open RAN that you can speak to from your perspective? >> For sure and going in this direction, like, you know evolution with the technology and how different players are coming together. Like that's something I wanted to comment from the previous question. And that's where like, you know these servers that Dell is offering right now. Specific functionality requirements, for example, it's it's a small server, it's short depth just 430 millimeters of depth and it can fit anywhere. So things like small form factor, it's it's crucial because if you, it can replace like multiple servers 10 years ago with just one server and you can place it like near a base band unit or to a cell site on top of a roof wherever. Like, you know, if it's a small company and you need this kind of 5G connection it kind of solves that challenge with this server. And then there are various things like, you know increasing thermals for example temperatures. It is classified like, you know kind of compliant with the negative 5 to 55 degree Celsius. And then we are also moving towards, for example negative 20 to 65 degree Celsius. Which is, which is kind of great because in situations where, which are out of our hands and you need specific thermals for those situations that's where it can solve that problem. >> Are those, are those statistics in those measurements different than the old NEB's standards, network equipment building standards? Or are they, are they in line with that? >> It is, it is a next step. Like so most of our servers that we have right now are negative five to five degree Celsius, for especially the extremely rugged server series and this one XR 8,000 which is focused for the, it's telecom inspired so it's focused on those customers. So we are trying to come up like go a step ahead and also like offering this additional temperatures testing and yeah compliance. So, so it is. >> Awesome. So we, I said we were at the booth early today. Looks like some good traffic people poking around at different, you know, innovations you got going. Some of the private network stuff is kind of cool. I'm like how much does that cost? I think I might like one of those, you know, but- >> [Private 5G home network. >> Right? Why not? Guys, great to have you on the show. Thanks so much for sharing. Appreciate it. >> Thank you. >> Thank you so much. >> Okay. For Dave Nicholson and Lisa Martin this is Dave Vellante, theCUBE's coverage. MWC 23 live from the Fida in Barcelona. We'll be right back. (outro music)