>> Presenter: From around the globe, it's theCUBE, with coverage of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon North America 2020 Virtual. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and ecosystem partners. >> Hey, welcome back everybody, Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're coming to you from our Palo Alto Studios with our ongoing coverage of KubeCon + CloudNativeCon 2020, the digital version. It would have been the North American version but obviously everything is digital. So we're excited, we've been coming back here for years and we've got a founder of CNCF and also a practitioner, really great opportunity to get some insight from someone who's out in the field and putting this stuff into work. So we're joined in this next segment by Ken Owens. He is the Vice President of Software Development Engineering for MasterCard, and he's a founding member of the CNCF, The Cloud Native Computing Foundation. Ken, great to see you. >> Yeah, great. Thank you for having me, I have, I've enjoyed theCUBE over the years and I'm glad to be a part of it again. >> Yeah, so we're, we're psyched to have you on, and I think it's the first time I've got to talk to you. I think you might've been on in LA a couple of years ago, or I was kind of drifting around that show. I don't think I was a it was on the set that day, but before we jump into kind of what's going on now, you were a founding member of CNCF. So let's take a step back and kind of share your perspective as to kind of where we are now from where this all began and kind of this whole movement around Cloud Native. Certainly it's a good place to be. >> Yeah, yeah definitely. It's been a great ride. In our industry, we go through these sort of timeframes every decade or so, where something big kind of comes along and you get involved in and you participate in it. And it gets to be a lot of fun and it either dies or it evolves into something else, right? And with CloudNativeCon Cloud Native itself, this concept of just how difficult it was to really move with the type of agility and the type of speed that developers in the enterprise really need to move at. It was just, it was hard to get there with just traditional infrastructure, traditional ways of doing configurations of doing management of infrastructure and it really needed something different and something to kind of help, it was called orchestration of course but at the time we didn't know it was called orchestration right. We knew we needed things like service mesh, but they weren't called service meshes then. There were more like control planes. And how do you, how do you custom create all of these different pieces? And the great thing about the CNCF is that we, when we started it, we had very simple foundational principles we wanted to follow right. One was, we wanted to have end users involved. A lot of foundations as become very vendor-driven and very vendor-centric. And you kind of lose your, your core base of the practitioners as you call us right? The guys who actually need to solve problems they're trying to make a living solving problems for the industry, not just for selling products, right? And so it was important that we get those end users involved and that, and that's probably the biggest changes. It's a great technology body. We had great technologists, great engineers and the foundation but we also have a huge over 150 end users that have engaged and been very involved and contributing to the end users things of the community, contributing to the foundation now. And it's been awesome to see that come to fruition over the last three years. >> Yeah, it certainly part of the magic of open source, that's been so, so transformative. And we've seen that obviously with servers and Linux and what what that did, but we've been talking a lot lately too about kind of the anniversary of the of the Agile Manifesto and kind of the Agile Movement and really changing the prioritization around change and really making change a first class citizen as opposed to kind of a nightmare I don't want to deal with and really building systems and ways of doing things that adopt that. I want to just to pull up the Cloud Native definition 'cause I think it's interesting. We talk about Cloud Native a lot and you guys actually wrote some words down and I think it's worth reading them that Cloud Native Technologies empower organizations to build and run scalable applications in dynamic environments. Dynamic environments is such a key piece to this puzzle because it used to be, this is your infrastructure person, you've got to build something that fits into this. Now with an app-centric world has completely flipped over and the application developer doesn't have to worry about the environment anymore, right? It's spin it up and make it available to me when I need it. A really different way of thinking about things than kind of this static world. >> Definitely and then that was the big missing piece for all those years was how do you get to this dynamic environment, right, that embraces change and embraces risk to some extent. Not risk like you heard in the past with risk avoidance is so important to have, right. It's really more, how do you embrace risk and fail earlier in the process, learn earlier in the process so that when you get to production you're not failing, you're not having to worry about failure because you cut as much as you could in the earlier phases of your development life cycle. And that's been set, like you said that dynamic piece has just been such the difference. I think in why it's been taken off. >> Yeah. >> And industry this last five years now that we've been around. >> Yeah, for sure. So then the next one well, I'm just going to go through them 'cause there's three main tenants of this thing. These techniques and techniques enabled loosely coupled systems that allow engineers to make high impact changes frequently and predictably with minimum toil. I mean, those are, those are really hard challenges in a classic waterfall way with PRDs and MRDs and everything locked down in a big, giant Gantt chart that fills half of the half the office to actually be able to have loosely coupled systems. Again a really interesting concept versus hardwired, connected systems. Now you're talking about APIs and systems all connecting. Really different way to think about development and how do you build applications. >> Yeah and the interesting thing there is the very first definition we came up with five plus years ago was containers, containerized workloads, right? And being technologist, everyone focused on those words containers and containerized and then everything had to be a container, right? And to your point, that isn't what we're trying to do, right? We're trying to create services that are just big enough to support whatever is needed for that service to support and be able to scale those up and down independently of other dependent systems that may have different requirements associated with what they have to do, right. And it was more about that keeping those highly efficient type of patterns in mind of spinning up and spinning down things that don't have impact or cause impact to other larger components around them was really the key not containers or containerized. >> Right. >> Obviously that's one of the patterns you could follow to create those types of services and those patterns, but there is nothing that guarantees it has to be a container that can do that. Lots of BMS today and lots of Bare Metal Servers can have a similar function. They're just not going to be as dynamic as you may want them to be in other environments. >> Right and then the third tenant, three of three is fostering sustainable ecosystem of open source vendor neutral projects, democratizing state-of-the-art patterns to make these innovations accessible for everyone. So just the whole idea of democratization of technology, democratization of data, democratization of tools, to do something with the data to find the insight democratization of the authority to execute on those decisions once you get going on that, I mean the open source and kind of this democratization to enable a broad distribution of power to more than just mahogany row, huge fundamental shift in the way people think about things. And really even still today, as everyone's trying to move their organizations to be more data-centric in the way they operate, it is really all about the democratization and getting that information and the tools and the ability to do something with it to as broad a group of people as you can. And that's even before we talk about open source development and the power of again, as you said, bringing in this really active community who want to contribute. It's a really interesting way that open source works. It's such a fun thing to watch, and I'm not a developer from the outside, but to see people get excited about helping other people. I think that's probably the secret to the whole thing that really taps into. >> Yeah, it is. And open source, there were discussions about open source for 20 plus years trying to get more into open source contributing to open source in an enterprise mindset, right? And it could never really take off 'cause it's not really the foundation or the platforms or the capabilities needed to do that. And now to your point, open source was really the underlying engine that is making all of this possible. Without open source and some of those early days of trying to get more open source and understanding of open source in the enterprise, I think we'd still be trying to get adoption but open source had just gotten to that point where everyone wanted to do more with open source. The CNCF comes along and said, here's the set of democratized, we're not going to have kingmakers in this organization. We're going to have a lot of open solutions, a lot of good options for companies to look at, and we're not going to lock you in to anything. 'Cause that's another piece of that open source model, right. Open source still can lock you in, right. But if you have open choices within open source, there's less, lock-in potential and locking isn't really a horrible thing. It's just one of those tenants you don't want to be tied too tightly to any one solution or one hope, open source even program because that could 'cause issues of that minimal toil we talked about, right. If you have a lot of dependencies and a lot of, I always joked about OpenStack but if I have to email two guys, if I find an issue in OpenStack about security that's not really a great security model that I can tell my customers I have your security covered, right? So, you want to get away from emails and having to ask for help, if you see a big security issue you want to just address it right then and fix it fast. >> Right, right. So much to unpack there. And for those that don't follow you, you've done a ton of presentations. You've got a ton of great content out of the internet with deep technical dives, into some of this stuff and the operational challenges in your philosophies but good keeping it kind of high level here. 'Cause one of the themes that comes up over and over in some of the other stuff I saw from you is really about asking the right questions. And we hear this time and time again, that the way to get the right answer first you got to frame the question right. And you talk quite extensively about asking the why and asking the how. I wonder if you can unpack that a little bit as to why those two questions are so important and how do you ask them in a way that doesn't piss everybody off or scare them away when you're at a big company like MasterCard that has a lot of personal information, you're in the finance industry, you got ton of regulation but still you're asking how and you're asking why. >> Yeah, definitely. And those, those are two questions that I keep coming back to in the industry because they are, they're not asked enough in my opinion. I think they, for the reasons you brought up those there's too much pushback or there's, you don't want to be viewed as someone who's being difficult, right? And there maybe other reasons why you don't want to ask that but I like to ask the why first because it, you kind of have to understand what's the problem you're trying to solve. And it kind of goes back to my engineering background, I think right. I love to solve problems and one of my early days and you might have heard this on one of my, my interviews, right. But in my early days, I was trying to fix a problem that I was on an advanced engineering team. And I was tier four support in a large Telco. And for months we had this issue with one of our large oil based companies and no one could solve it. And I was on call the night that they called in. And I asked the guy a simple question, tell me which lights you see on this DHUC issue? Which is a piece of equipment that sits between a ATM network and a regular Sonnet network. So we're watching, I'm asking them as kind of find out where in this path, there's a problem. And the guy tells me where there's no lights on. And I'm like well, plug in the power and let me know when it boots up and then let's try another test. And that was the problem. So my, the cleaning crew would come through and unplugged it. And so I learned early on in my crew that if you don't ask those simple questions, you just assume that everything's working almost nine times out of 10, it's the simple, easy solution to a problem. You're just too busy thinking of all the complex things that could go wrong and trying to solve all the hard problems first. And so I really try to help people think about, ask the why questions, ask, why is this important? Why do we need to do this now? Why, what would happen if we don't do this? If we did it this other way, what's the downside of doing it this other way? Really think through your options, 'cause it may take you 20, 30 minutes to kind of do a good analysis of a problem, but then your solution you're not going to spend weeks trying to troubleshoot when it doesn't work because you put the time upfront to think about it. So that's sort of the main reason why I like to ask the why and the how, because it forces you to think outside of your normal, my job is to take this cog and put it over here and fix this, right. And you don't want to be in that, that mode when you're solving complex problems because you overlook or you miss the simple things. >> Right. So you don't like the 'cause we've always done it that way? (both laughing) >> I do not. And I hear that a lot everywhere I've been in the industry and anywhere, any company you have those, this is the way we've always done it. >> Yeah, yeah. Just like the way we've always traveled, right. And the way we've always been educated and the way we've always consumed entertainment. It's like really? I wanted to (indistinct) >> I have learned though that there's a good, I like to understand the reason behind why we've always done it that way. So I do always ask that question. >> Right. >> I don't turn around on someone and get mad at them and you say, Oh, we can't we have to do it differently. I don't have the mindset of let's throw that out the window because I realized that over time something happened. It's like when I had younger kids, I always laugh because they put these warnings on those whatever they call them at the kids stand up in them. >> Right, the little, the little (indistinct) >> Don't put them on top of the stairs right. These stupid little statements are written on there. And I always thought I was dumb. And if somebody told me, well that's because somebody put their kid near the pool and they drown. >> Right, right. >> You have to kind of point out the obvious to people and so, >> Yeah. >> I don't think it's that dangerous of a situation and in the work environment, but hopefully we're not making the same mistakes that have been prevented by not allowing just the, not because we've done it this way before modeled it to go forward. >> Right, right now we have a rule around here too. There's a reason we have every rules is because somebody blew it at some point in time. That's why we have the rule that I want to shift gears a little bit and talk about automation, right? 'Cause automation is such a big and important piece of this whole story especially as these systems scale, scale, scale. And we know that people are prone to errors. I mean, I had seen that story about the cleaner accidentally unplugging things. We all know that people fat fingers, copy and paste is not used as universally as it should be. But I wonder if you could share, how important automation is. And I know you've talked a lot about how people should think about automate automation and prioritizing automation and helping use automation to both make people more productive but also to prioritize what the people should be working on as well as lowering the error rate on stuff that they probably shouldn't be doing anyway. >> Exactly, yeah automation to me is, as you've heard me say before is it's something that is probably almost as big of a key tenet as open source should be, right? It's one of those foundational things that it really helps you to get rid of some of that churn and some of the toil that you run into in a production environment where you're trying to always figure out what went wrong and why did this system not work on this point in time and this day and this deployment, and it's almost to your point always a fat finger, someone deleted an IP address from the IPAM system. There's all kinds of errors that you can people can tell you about that have happened. But to the root of your question is automation needs to be thought about from three different primary areas in my view, in my experience. The first one is the infrastructure as code, software defined infrastructure, right. So the networking teams and the storage teams and the security teams are probably the furthest behind in adopting automation in in their jobs, right. And their jobs are probably the most critical pieces of the infrastructure, right? And so those are, those are pieces that I really highly encouraged them to think about how can they automate those areas. The second piece is I think is equally as important as the infrastructure piece is the application side. When I first joined multiple enterprises in the past, the test coverage is in the low 10's to 20%, right. And your test coverage is a direct correlation to how well your application is going to behave and production in terms of failures, right? So if you have low test coverage, you're going to have high failure rates. It's sort of over over all types of industries every study has shown that, right. So getting your test coverage up and testing the right things not just testing to have test coverage right. >> But actually. >> Right, right. >> Thinking through your user stories and acceptance criteria and having good test is really, really important. So you have those two bookends, right. And in between, I think it's important that you look at how you connect to these services, these distributed systems we talked about in the opening right. If you fully automate your infrastructure and fully automate your application development and delivery, that's great. But if in the middle you have this gooey middle that doesn't really connect well doesn't really have the automation in place to ensure that your certificates are there that your security is in place. That middle piece can become really a problem from a security and from a availability issue. And so those those are the two pieces that I say really focus on is that gooey middle and then that infrastructure piece is really the two keys. >> Right, right. You've got another group of words that you use a lot. I want you to give us a little bit more color behind it. And that's talking to people to tell them that they need to spend more time on investigation. They need to do more experimentation. And then and the one that really popped out to me was it was retro to retrospective to not necessarily a postmortem which I thought is interesting. You say retrospective versus the postmortem, because this is an ongoing process for continuous improvement. And then finally, what seems drop dead dumb obvious is to iterate and deliver. But I wonder if you can share a little bit more color on how important it is to experiment and to investigate and to have those retrospectives. >> Yeah definitely. And then it kind of goes back to that culture we want to create in a Cloud Native world, right. We want to be open to thinking about how we can solve problems better, how we can have each iteration we want, to look at, how do we have a less toil, have less issues. How do we improve the, I liked kind of delight in your experience, how do you make your developers and your customers specific, but specifically how do you make your customers so happy with your service? And when you think about those sort of areas, right. You want to spend some portion of your time dedicated to how do I look at and investigate better ways of doing things or more improvements around the way my customer experience is being delivered. Asking your customers questions, right. You'd be surprised how how many customers don't ever get asked for their opinion on how something works, right. And they want to be asked, they'd love to give you feedback. It doesn't necessarily mean you're going to go do it that next iteration, right? The old adage I like to use is if Henry Ford had listened to his customers he would have tried to breed a faster horse, right? And so you have to kind of think about what you want to try to deliver as a product and as an organization but at the same time, that input is important. And I think, I say carve it out, because if you don't, we're so busy today and there's so much going on in our lives. If you don't dedicate and carve out some of that time and protect that time, you will never get to that, right. It's always a, I'll get to that next year. Maybe our next iteration I'll try, right. And so it's important to really hold that time as sacred and spend time every week, every couple of weeks, whatever it works out in the schedule, but actually put that in your calendar and block out that time and use it to really look at what's possible, what's relevant, what kind of improvements you can have. I think those are really the key the key takeaways I can have from that piece of it. And then, the last one you asked about, which I think is so important, is the retrospective, right. Always trying to get better and better at what you do is, is an engineer's goal, right? We never liked to fail. We never liked to do something twice, right? We don't want to, we want to learn the first time we make a mistake and not make it over and over again. So that those retrospectives and improving on what you're doing iteratively. And to the point you brought up and I like to bring this up a lot, 'cause I've been part not at MasterCard, but at other companies parts of companies that would talk a great game come up with great stories, say here's our plan. And then when we get ready to go to deliver it, we go and we reinvestigate the plan and see if there's a better plan. And then we get to a point where we're ready to go execute. And then we go back and start all over again, right. And you've got to deliver iteratively, if you don't, you're the point I like to always make is you're never going to be ready, right. It's like, when are you ready to have kids? You never ready to have kids, right. You just have to go and you'll learn as you go. You know so. >> Right, right, I love that. Well again, Ken, you have so much great stuff out there for technical people that want to dive in deep? So I encourage them just to do a simple YouTube or excuse me, YouTube search or Google search but I want to give you the last word. One word, I'm going to check the transcript when this thing is over that you've used probably more than any other word while we've been talking for the last few minutes is toil. And I think it's really interesting that it brings up and really highlights your empathy towards what you're trying to help developers avoid and what you're trying to help teams avoid so that they can be more productive. You keep saying, avoid the toil, get out of the toil, get out of this kind of crap that inhibits people from getting their job done and being creative and being inventive and being innovative. Where does that come from? And I just love that you keep reinforce it and just kind of your final perspective as we wrap on 2020 and another year of CNCF and clearly containers and Kubernetes and Cloud Native is continues to be on fire and on a tear. I just wonder if you can share a little bit of your perspective as a founding member as we kind of come to the end of 2020. >> Yeah definitely. Thanks again for having me. It's been a great, great discussion. I am a developer by background, by trade today, I still develop. I still contribute to open source and I've had this mantra pretty much my entire career that you have to get into the weeds and understand what everyone's experiencing in order to figure out how to solve the problems, right. You can't be in an ivory tower and look down and say, Oh, there's a problem, I'm going to go fix that. It just doesn't work that way. And most problems you try to solve in that model will be problems that no other team has really experienced. And there not going to be help, they're not going to be thankful that you solved the problem they don't have, right? They want you to solve a problem that they have. And so I think that that's sort of a key for the reason why I spent so much time talking about that as I live it every day. I understand it. I talk with my development community and with a broader community of developers at MasterCard and understand the pains that they're going through and try to help them every day with coming up with ways to help make their lives a lot easier. So it's important to me and to to all organizations out there and in all of the, in the world. So, CNCF its been great. It's still growing. I'm always looking for end users. I'd love to talk to you. Well, you can reach out to, to the CNCF if you'd like to learn more, our website has information on how to get connected to the end user community. We community within the CNCF that is not, it's a private community. So you don't have to worry about your information being shared. If you don't want people to know you belong to the community, you don't have to list that information. If you want to list it, you're welcome to list it. There's no expectations on you to contribute to open source, but we do encourage you to contribute, and are here to support that end user community any way we can. So thanks again for having us and looking forward to, to a great show in North America. >> All right well, thank you, Ken, for sharing your information sharing the insight, sharing the knowledge really appreciate it and great to catch up. All right. He's Ken, I'm Jeff. You're watching theCUBE with our ongoing coverage of KubeCon + CloudNativeCon 2020 North America Digital. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time. (gentle music)

>> Announcer: Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE. Covering AWS Executive Summit. Brought to you by Accenture. >> Hello everyone and welcome back to theCUBE's live coverage of the Accenture Executive Summit here at the Venetian in Las Vegas. Part of AW re:invent, of course. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight. We have two guests for this segment. We have Leandro Nunes. He is the Vice President of Product Development at Mastercard. Thank you so much for coming on the show. >> Thanks for having me. >> And Christine Leong, she is the Managing Director, Accenture Blockchain and Biometrics. Thank you so much. >> Thank you. >> So sustainability is a hot topic in the industry, in all industry today and especially here at AWS re:Invent. I want to talk to you about circular supply chain which was an idea that germinated in your brain a couple of years ago, but it really just sort of launched a year ago. Tell us more about why you started CSC. >> Sure. We started this actually because, a couple of things. We drink coffee every single day, and as we go into every coffee shop and we think about, well, you see packets saying this is my single origin coffee. I pay extra for this and it's sustainably grown and yet so see news saying that the rain forest is being burned down and animals are being killed. And so about two years ago, I looked at this and I thought, "Wow, how do I know "this is really sustainable, what I'm drinking?" The extra five bucks that I'm paying at my coffee shop, is it really single origin? Is it really going to the right people? Is it really killing the orangutans and the rainforest and then I see a statistic that says, well, for every cup of coffee that we drink, a square inch of rainforest gets burned down. And, I mean, I drink at least five cups of coffee a day. So that's not good, right? So then I thought, and working, actually, with Mastercard at the time, I'm doing and still do actually do a lot of work with Mastercard around identity and biometrics and I thought, "Well, how can we combine "some of these capabilities we have "with Blockchain identity to say, "to put our money where our mouths is?" To change the incentives at the base of the pyramid where farmers, producers, smallholders. If I can say to them that I really want to care that you don't burn the forest down, that you produce in a good way. And they're just trying to survive. They're not bad people, if they are just hand to mouth. That if we can say, right, we'll pay you more as consumers and we know it's definitely going to that right person, then maybe we can help to change some of, you know, and not have the rainforests and not have my guilty cup of coffee, right? >> So even if we don't drink quite as much coffee as you, Christine, we are as a group, consumers are more socially conscious than they ever have been. What are some of the statistics here? That people just care more about this stuff, in general, and they're willing to pay premium for it. >> So, for example, the green trade is estimated, this came out from Unilever, at $2 trillion a year, by next year actually. I mean, that's a staggering statistic and as you see more and more on social media, on literally every platform that you can see. Sustainability is a huge topic with the recent UN climate discussions. I mean, next week in Madrid, it's a big topic that we should all, as responsible responsible consumers, care about. >> So Leandro, what do you see as the benefits of CSC of small actors? >> Well, it's a great point, because when you seriously think about it you usually say a lot about consumers and the big brands. And now we are protecting the big brands, but just think about the sourcing side of the supply chain, right? The small communities, the ones that are growing the coffee, the ones that are the farmers over there or the fishermen. Now, these ones have been there for a while, they are just being kind of squeezed by the whole supply chain, squeezed by the whole business. Right? You think like let's remove a little bit of their margin, let's put it into something else. Now, when you have the circle of supply chain, because consumers in this new generation is so interested in knowing where the product comes from, if they are doing the right thing. Now there's a chance that you can pay them back. It's all about coming up with an incentive model, that's what we see with Mastercard, right? When you create a network like that, which the Blockchain solution is, it's a big network. So how we can gain traction, how we can gain adoption? One thing is, you need to establish incentives through all of the parties that you have in the network. So if you're just taking care of the brand and they're going to say, "Brands, mandate to your suppliers "that needs to do that." This is not going to work. What will work is, what is the incentive the farmers are going to have? What is the sourcing? So, wait a minute. So, don't you think the farmers want to do the right thing? Of course they do, but do they have incentives for that? If it's just a letter, or if it's just someone mandating, they're not going to do it. But if you come with the idea of, "Hey, I pay you back your coffee "or whatever your product you're doing, "you can have a premium. "It's going to be sustainable to your family as well. "Your business can be more profitable." So they will see, "Okay, I want to be part of it." >> So, it's creating incentives for people, for the producers themselves to grow things more sustainably. >> It's all about that, it's not only them. And then you go to the suppliers, you go to the logistics, transportation companies. You give them the visibility. They always complain about, "How can I have the visibility of my supply chain?" "Why?" "Can you create the visibility?" You give the transparency that you create the trust. And if you'll ask people in a supply chain business what the big problem is in supply chain, it's trust. They don't trust each other, but they have to trade things and they don't trust each other. You do business with people you don't trust every single day. It's not a good thing. So, if you bring this visibility, you facilitate this and they see there's an incentive to be also part of it. >> So Christine, what are the kinds of technologies that are powering the CSC and how does it create that trust or cultivate that trust? >> And Leandro is spot on in terms of trust. It's about trusting the people, but trusting the data and trusting the entities that put in some of the data. There are components of Blockchain, of course, that serve the traceability aspects of any of the product. Blockchain also helps with the decentralized identity capability that we've put in. We've made also biometrics for the individual, but this is optional, depending on how, in terms of using it very responsibly. Payments of course, digital payments and having the ability to actually direct payments through the Mastercard rails. And then, of course, with the power of AWS and then hosting it on the cloud and be able to have that anywhere. And the different aspects of including IoT, so we know that let's say for fisheries, this product actually really came from this place, you know, there's sensors, we know that it's kept at the right temperature, therefore insurance payoffs and things like that will be right and tracked all the way through and knowing that the product is really fresh and really kept intact throughout the journey. So a whole bunch of different technology. >> Totally agreed. Projects with Blockchain only tend not to succeed and the reason is because you need to nurture the ecosystem. So how you bring the IoT-- >> Yes. >> To the table, how you bring payments, how you bring AI. You get all these solutions together and then you create what this visibility, that's the trust we need. Companies who are trying to do one side, which is just the Blockchain, they are not going anywhere. The reason that I like their alliance with Accenture and AWS is because we know that we needed to do this end-to-end and this is going to be broader than just talking about Blockchain. >> Rebecca: Yes. >> And it's about the people, because you have to, ultimately it's the consumer and the base of the pyramid, producer. Both have identities, and if we are able to say, "This is the identity of the person," I can then help to influence their livelihoods. >> So it's putting a real face on the supply chain for the end consumer. I mean, at a time where consumers are demanding more transparency in the supply chain, demanding to know more about the source of the goods, of the products that they're buying, what has been the reception and what are you hearing back? >> I think we've had great receptions. We launched it at Davos, earlier this year. We've had a huge amount of interest and now slowly we're gaining sort of traction in terms of getting the pilots and putting them in place. And I think it's also something that people need to, initially it's a little bit of education, understanding, well, how does this actually all work? You know, is it just traceability? Is it just identity? Or is it actually all of those things? Understanding the use cases and embracing that it's not just one way of doing something and it's really a concept of embracing better business through better technology and innovation can actually be more sustainable and responsible businesses. So the traction has been great and we have a number of pilots in the pipeline. >> Yeah, in the past I used to believe that some things we should stop doing or stop eating because of the sustainable part of it, and I have learned that is not the case. You can do the right thing, you can make sure that you are doing the right thing and you can eat with no guilt. That's what everybody wants, right? This is the type of visibility you want to give from the consumer side, but not from the company side of it. The brands are, "Okay, I'm safe," because brands, they have a very good visibility from the distributor on, but they don't know what's going on behind that, and our products, this is so globalized nowadays, so fragmented. You know, it comes from so many different places. Brands, there is no way that they can control it if they don't have this veil. That's why we're trying to bring together. >> So when this fully does launch and the consumer is then seeing the face of the coffee grower in Brazil or in Kenya-- >> Yeah. >> And saying, "Okay," so then what happens then? How are they able to incentivize that farmer to do the right thing, as you say? >> There is a digital payment channel, powered by Mastercard, that you can then tip, so to speak, tip the farmer, donate money and actually say, "Well, there's multiple ways of doing things." Right? For example, if I'm the consumer scanning the product and we have a whole Lego city built upstairs that can showcase this, and say, "Right, this is how it works," and scan the product and where I can say, "Right, I want to be able "to donate an extra dollar for this farmer "because I really like the fact that you are sustainable. "And not burning the rainforest down "and protecting the orangutans or elephants or the birds. "So great, I'm going to give you an extra dollar." So this is how it's going to work on the app. >> And there are other consequences as well. There are so many organic products nowadays, but they're not really organic. So if you can prove they're organic, the farmers would feel more motivated to really grow that as an organic product because there is a premium. So it's not only the tip that you give to them, but also the fact that you can create a premium price situation that will motivate others to do the same. So brands would give the differentiator, farmers would feel like, "Okay, if I do this way, "it would be more profitable," and consumers would benefit from a real organic or a real product with the sustainability behind it. >> Great, consumers can trust more. >> Exactly. >> It's not just fake news. What are some of the, I mean, this is such a cool concept. What are some of the biggest challenges in really launching it and making it a reality? What is keeping you up at night? >> I think some of it is actually just education and getting it out there. And understanding that this is a lot of stakeholders. So, from consumer brands all the way down to the smallholder providers. It's a lot of people to link up and a lot of organizations to talk to. So some of it is just getting through that process and getting people to understand. Also, actually, hopefully we'll get consumers to adopt. >> Yeah. >> And understand that this is something that they will want to do. >> Yeah, this whole integration, like Christine said, it is important, right? So you understand all the key stakeholders. It don't need to be all of them at the beginning, but at least the key stakeholders in a supply chain. And how you can create the business incentive model for them to be part of that. So it's a mapping exercise. We're getting there and that's where you gain adoption, and if you get the consumer side doing this as well, so it creates a network effect. And that's why we're trying to do it at Mastercard. It's in our DNA, like, build the networks, right. Everybody knows that. So we wanted to bring this to the ecosystem, to contribute that, okay, so how can I create a network effect that they can exponentially scale for their whole marketshare, for their whole marketplace. >> I want to ask you a personal question. You've been in technology for a really long time and now-- >> Not that old though. >> (laughing) No, no. You're just a babe. But in terms of of the kinds of projects you've worked on and the kinds of ways you're thinking about technology and then this particular project at a time where climate change is a monumental challenge and the fate of our planet really hangs in the balance with the decisions that we're making, policy makers and consumers are making today. I mean, what is it like to work on this kind of product? >> That's a great question. Yeah, well, for all of these years, I go to work with this business mentality, you know, you're going to make more money for someone else. You're going to work for big company. And see some friends and family doing things for the society, I say, "Oh my gosh, I should do something like that." And now I feel like I can do both. We're talking now as a business. It's a great solution, but it mixes so well for the, you know, for the whole society. It makes me feel really, everyday going to work and say, "Oh, this is what I want to do. "This is so cool." I mean, I'm helping, I'm benefiting myself 'cause I go to the supermarket, I'm going to be the one who's going to tip the farmer. I'm going to be the one who's going to check where my shrimp comes from, right? So I'm doing this for my family. My kids are, I hope they can live in a better planet that know exactly where the products come from. >> And the family that you have that's not even been born yet, so that's the other thing, too, helping future generations. >> That's amazing. We're doing things that, we never know. >> Yes, you deserve the Nobel Peace Prize, Leandro. (all laughing) Thank you so much, Leandro and Christine, for coming on theCUBE. A really fun and fascinating conversation. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> I'm Rebecca Knight. Stay tuned for more of theCUBE's live coverage at the Accenture Executive Summit coming up after lunch. (upbeat music)

by from Las Vegas it's the cube coverage AWS executive summary brought to you by Accenture hello everyone and welcome back to the cubes live coverage of the Accenture executive summit here at the Venetian in Las Vegas part of aw reinvent of course I'm your host Rebecca Knight we have two guests for this segment we have Leandro Nunez he is the vice president product development at MasterCard thank you so much for coming on the show thanks for having me and Christine Leung she is the managing director Accenture blockchain and biometrics thank you so much you so sustainability is a hot topic in the industry too in all industry today and especially here at AWS reinvent I want to talk to you about circular supply chain which was an idea that germinated in your brain a couple of years ago but it's really just sort of launched a year ago tell us more about why you started Cs sure we started this actually because a couple of things I we drink coffee every single day and we go into every coffee shop and we think about well you know you see packets saying this is my single origin coffee this is I pay extra for this and it's sustainably grown and yet you see news saying that you know the rain forest is being burnt down and animals are being killed and so about two years ago I looked at this and I thought wow you know how do I know this is really sustainable what I'm drinking the extra five books that I'm hanging at my coffee shop is it really is it really sink origin is it really going to the right people is it really killing the orangutans and the rainforest and then I see a statistic success well for every coffee a cup of coffee that we drink a square inch of rain forests get burnt down and I mean I drink at least five cups of coffee a day and working actually with MasterCard at the time I'm doing a and still do actually doing a lot of work with MasterCard in around identity and biometrics and I thought well you know how can we combine some of these capabilities we have with blockchain identity to say to put our money where our mouths is to change incentives as the base of the pyramid where you know performers produces smallholders if I can say to them that I really won't care but you don't burn a fat forest out that you produce in a good way and they just tried to survive they're not bad people if they're just hand-to-mouth but if they we can say right will hate you more as consumers and we know it's definitely going to that right person then maybe we can help to change some of you know and not have the rain force and don't have my guilty cup of coffee right so even if we don't drink quite as much coffee as you we are as a as a group consumers are more socially conscious than they ever have been what are some of the statistics here that people just care more about this stuff in general and they're willing to pay a premium for it so for example the green trade is estimated and this came out for Unilever at two trillion dollars a year by the by next year actually a growing statistic and let's just see I mean more and more on social media or literally you know every platform that you can see sustainability is a huge topic with you know sort of the the recent sort of UN climate discussions I mean it's this week with next week we're in Madrid this a big topic that we should all as a responsible consumers care about so Leander what do you see as the benefits of CSE to to small actors well it's a great point because when you see that just think about it do you usually say a lot about consumers in the big brands and now we're protecting the big brands but just think about the sourcing side of the supply chain right the small communities the ones that are growing the coffee the ones that are the farm the farmers over there or the fishermen now these ones are there's meaning for a while they're just been because it squeezed by the whole supply chain it's but the whole business right you think like let's remove a little bit of their margin let's put in something else now when they have the circular supply chain because consumers and this new generation is so interested in knowing where the product comes from you know if you're then doing the right thing now it has a change that you can pay them back it's all about come up with incentive model that's why we should in a MasterCard right when you create a network like that which the blockchain solution is a big network so how we can gain traction how we can gain adoption one thing is you need to establish incentives through all of the parties that you have at a network so if you're just taking care of the brand and they're gonna say bran mandate to your suppliers that needs to do that this is not going to work what it works is what is the incentive the farmers gonna have what's the sourcing so we don't mean it so don't don't you think the farmers wants to do the right thing of course they do but do they have incentives for that if it's just a letter if you're just someone mandating they're not gonna do it but if you come with the idea of hey I pay you back your your coffee or whatever your products you're doing we can help you can have a premium so we can it's going to be sustainable to your family as well your business can be more profitable so they you see okay I want to be part of it so it's creating incentives for people to for the for the for the producers themselves to grow things more sustainably it's all about that it's not only them and then you go to the suppliers you go to the logistic transportation companies how do you creative you give them the visibility they always complain about how can I have the visibility of my supply chain why can you create the visibility you give the transparency that you create the trust in and if you ask people in a supply chain business what the big problem is supply chain is trust they don't trust each other but they have to trade things and they don't trust each other you do business with people you don't trust every single day it's not a good thing so if we bring this visibility you facilitate this and they see there's an incentive to be also part of it so Christine what are the kind of technologies that are bad that are that are powering the CSC and and how are we how does it create that trust i cultivate that trust um and Leandra is for Honor's and in terms of trust it's about trusting the people but trusting the data and trusting the entities that I put in some of this data there are components of blockchain of course the surface the traceability aspects of the any of the product blockchain also helps with the decentralized identity capability that we've put in we've made also biometrics for the for the individual but this is optional depending on how you know in terms of using it very responsibly payments of course digital payments and you know having the ability to actually direct payments through the MasterCard rails and then of course with you know the power of AWS and then hosting on the cloud and be able to have that anywhere and the different aspects of including a iot so we know that let's say for fisheries this product is actually really came from displays you know the sensors we know that it's kept the right temperature we did that therefore you know insurance payers and things like that would be right and tracked all the way through and knowing that the product is really fresh and really kept you know intact throughout the journey so a whole bunch of different technology totally great projects with blockchain only would tend not to succeed and the reason is because you need to come up with you need to nurture the ecosystem so how you bring the IOT yes to the table how you doing you know payments how you bring AI so you get at all these solutions together and then you create what this visibility that's trust we need so companies are trying to do one side you know which is just a blockchain they're not going anywhere the reason that I like it our alliance with Accenture and AWS is because we know that we needed to do this end-to-end and this can be broader than just talk about watching and it's about the people because you have the ultimate is the consumer and the the base of pyramid producer both have identities and if we are able to say this is the identity of the person I can then help to influence their their livelihoods so it's putting a real face on the supply chain for the end consumer I mean at a time where consumers are demanding more transparency in the supply chain demanding to know more about the source of the goods that they put the products that they're buying what has been the reception and and what are you hearing back I think we've had great receptions we launched at Davos earlier this year we've had a huge amount of interest and now slowly we're gaining sort of traction in terms of getting the pilots I'm putting them in place and I think it's also something that we'll need to UM in initially it's a little bit of Education understanding well how does this actually all work you know is it just traceability is it just identity well it's actually all those things are understanding the use cases and embracing that there are it's not just one way of doing something and this is really a concept that embracing better business through better technology and innovation can actually be more sustainable and responsible businesses so the traction has been great and we've had a we have a number of pilots in the pipeline yeah well we will in the past I used to believe that some things we should stop doing or stop eating because of the sustainable part of it and I have learned that it's not the case you can do the right thing you can make sure that they're doing the right thing and you can eat with no guilt that's why everybody wants right so so this is this is the the type of you know visibility when to give from the consumer side but not from the from the company side of I like the brands are ok I'm safe because brands they have a very good visibility from the distributor on but they don't know what's going on behind that you know products the this is so globalized now they so fragmented you know it comes from so many different places Princeton that there's no way that they can control it if they don't have this you know there's this view so that's why we're trying to bring together so when so when this when this fully does launch and a consumer is then seeing the face of the coffee grower in Brazil or in Kenya and saying ok so then what what happens then how are they able to to to incentivize that farmer to do the right thing as you say there's a digital payment channel of powered by monster cop that you can then so sue speaks if the farmer donate money and actually say well there's multiple ways of doing things right so for example if I'm the consumer scanning the the product and there is we have a whole lego city built upstairs that can show cases and say right this is how it works and you know scan the product and what I can save right I want to be able to donate an extra dollar for this farmer because I really like the fact that you are sustainable and not burning the rainforests and protecting the orangutan or elephant so the the the birds so great I'm going to give you an extra dollar so this is how it's going to work on the app and there are other consequences well there's so many organic products nowadays they're not really organic so you can prove with the organic so the farmers would feel more motivated to really grow that as a organic product because there is a premium so it's not only the the tea that you give it to them but also the fact that you can create a premium price situation that will motivate others to do the same so brands would grieve the differentiator farmers would feel like okay if I do this way how to get will be more profitable and consumers will benefit from that from a real organic or a real product what the sustainability you know behind it consumers can trust more so how do what are some of the I mean this is such a cool concept what is what are some of the biggest challenges in in really launching and making it a reality what is keeping you up at night I think some of it is actually just education and getting it out there and understanding that this is it's a lot of stakeholders so from consumer brands all the way down to the the smallholder providers so it's a lot of people to link up and a lot of organizations to talk to so some of it is just getting through that process and getting people to understand and also actually hopefully we'll get consumers understand that this is something that they will want to do yeah and that this whole integration I Christine said it's in it's important right so you understand all the key stakeholders don't need to beat all of them at the beginning but at least the key stakeholders in the supply chain and how you can create this business incentive in a dissented model for them to be part of that so it's a mapping exercise which is we are getting there and in intestine we gain adoption and and if you gather the consumer side doing this as well so it creates a network effect and that's why we try to do in a MasterCard assist in our DNA like building networks right everybody knows that so we wanted to bring this to you know >> to the ecosystem to contribute okay so how can I create a network effect that they can it exponentially scale you know for for the whole market share for the whole you know marketplace so I want to ask you a personal question you've been in technology for a really long time time and now but in terms of the kinds of projects you've worked on and the kinds of ways you're thinking about technology and then this particular project at a time where climate change is a monumental challenge the fate of our planet really hangs in the balance with what with the decisions that we're making policymakers and consumers are making today wait how what is it like to work on this kind of products a great question I yeah I was for this all these years so go to work with this business mentality you know we're gonna make more money for someone else we're gonna work for a big company and see some friends and family doing things for the society and say oh my gosh there's something like that and now I feel like I can do both right we're talking you know it's a business it's it's a great solution but makes it so well for the you know for the whole society you know it makes me feel really every day going to work and say oh this is what I want to do you know this is so cool I mean I'm helping I'm benefiting myself as I go to the supermarket I'm gonna be the one who's gonna tip the farmer I'm gonna be the one who's gonna check where my shrimp comes from right so so I'm doing this for my family my kids are like I hope they can live in a better planet that know exactly where the products come from and the family that you have it's not even been born yet so that's the other generation that's amazing really doing things that we never know thank you so much Lee under and Christine for coming on the cube a really fun and fascinating conversation thank you thank you I'm Rebecca night stay tuned for more of the cubes live coverage at the Accenture executive summit coming up after lunch [Music]

>> live from Las Vegas. It's the queue covering del Technologies. World twenty nineteen, Brought to you by Del Technologies and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to Las Vegas, Lisa Martin. With the cue, we're live Day one of our duel set coverage of Del Technologies World twenty nineteen student a menace here with me, and we're welcoming back a couple of alumni. But for the first time together on our set, we've got Terry Pellegrino, the BP of high performance computing at Delhi Emcee and Nick, who grew VP of Data Analytics and Cyber Securities just at MasterCard. Did I get that right? All right, good. So, guys, thanks for joining Suited me this afternoon, by the way. So we will start with you High performance computing. Talk about that a lot. I know you've been on the Cube talking about HPC in the Innovation lab down in in Austin, high performance computing, generating a ton of data really requiring a I. We talk a lot of it II in machine learning, but let's look at it in the context of all this data. Personal data data from that word, you know, it turns out do with mastercard, for example How are you guys working together? Dell Technologies and MasterCard to ensure that this data is protected. It secure as regulations come up as fraud, is a huge, expensive >> issue. Well, I think make way worked together to really well worry about the data being secure, but also privacy being a key item that we worry about every day you get a lot of data coming through, and if we let customer information or any kind of information out there, it can be really detrimental. So we've really spent a lot of time not only helping manage and worked through the data through the infrastructure and the solutions that we've put together for. For Nick, who also partnered with the consortium project that got started Mosaic Crown to try to focus even more on data privacy on Mosaic Crown is is really interesting because it's getting together and making sure that the way we keep that privacy through the entire life cycle of the data that we have the right tools tio have other folks understand that critical point. That's that's how we got all the brains working together. So it's not just Delon DMC with daily emcee and MasterCard It's also ASAP We have use of Milan, you're sort of bergamot and we'Ll solve the only three c and all together back in January decided to get together and out of Nick's idea. Think about how we could put together with all those tools and processes to help everybody have more private data. Other. >> I think this was your idea. >> I can't say it was my idea. The European Union itself with what? The advent of Judy parent privacy. Their biggest concern was we don't want people to stop sharing. Data began with artificial intelligence. The great things that we do with it from the security, you know, carrying diseases all the way through, making sure transactions are safe and secure. Look, we don't want people to stop our organizations to stop sharing that data because they have fear of the regulations. How do we create a date on market? So the U has something called Horizon twenty twenty on one of their initiatives. Wass Way wanted to understand what a framework for data market would look like where organizations can share that data with confidence that they're complying to all the regulations there, doing the anonymous ization of that data, and the framework itself allows someone to say, I could do analysis without worrying that if it's surfacing personally identifiable information or potentially financial information, but I can share it so that it can progress the market data economy. So as a result of that, what we did is we put the guilt. I said, This is a really good idea for us. Went to the partners at del. That's it, guys, this is something we should consider doing now. Organization always been looking at privacy, and as a result, we've done a very good job of putting that consortium together. >> So, Nick, we've talked with you on the Cuba quite a few times about security. >> Can you just give >> us? You know, you talked about that opportunity of a I We don't want people to stop giving data in. There was concerned with GPR that Oh, wait, I need you to stop collecting information because I'm going to get sued out of existence. If it happened, how do we balance that? You know, data is the new oil I need, you know, keep not flowing and oh, my God. I'm going to get hacked. I'm going to get sued. I'm going to have the regulation, You know, people's personal information. I'm goingto walk down the grocery store and they're going to be taking it from me. How do we balance that? >> Well, the nice part is, since State is the new oil, well, we considered it is artificial intelligences that refinery for that oil. So, for our perspective, is the opportunity to say we can use a eye to help. Somebody says, Hey, I don't want you to share my data information. I want to be private, but I can use a I d. S. Okay, let's filter those out so I can use a I'd actually sit on top of that. I can sit down and say, Okay, how do I keep that person's safe, secure and only share the necessary data that will solve the problem again, using artificial intelligence through different types of data classifications, whoever secure that data with different methods of data security, how we secure those types of things come into play. And again, there's also people say, I don't ever want my data to be we identified so we can use different methods to do complete anonymous ation. >> How do you do that when there are devices that are listening constantly, what Walmart's doing? Everybody that has those devices at home with the lady's name. I won't say it. I know it activates it. How How do you draw the line with ensuring that those folks that don't want certain things shared if they're in the island Walmart talking about something that they don't want shared? How do you facilitate that? >> Well, part of that is okay. At a certain point, when it comes to privacy, you've gotta have a little bit of parenting. Just because you have that information doesn't mean you need to use that information. So that's where we as humans have to come into play and start thinking about what is the data that we're collecting And how should we use that information on that person and who is walking through a store? And we say we are listening to what their conversations are? Well, I don't need to identify that you or you. I just didn't know what is the top talking about? Maybe that's the case, but again, you have to make that decision again. It's about being a parent at this point. That's the ethical part of data which we've discussed on this program before. Alright, >> so teary. Talkto us some about the underlying architecture that's going to drive all of this. You know, we we love the shift. For years ago, it was like storing my data. You know, Now we're talking about how do we extract the value of the data? We know data's moving a lot, So you know what's changing And I talk every infrastructure company I talked to, it's like, Oh, well, we've got the best ai ai, you know, x, whatever. So you know what kind of things should custom be looking for To be able to say, Oh, this is something, really. It's about scale. It's about, you know, really focused on my data. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I will say first, the end of underlying infrastructure. We have our set of products that have security intrinsic in the way they're designed. I really worry about ki management for software we have silicon based would have trust throughout a lot of our portfolio. We also think about secure supply chain, even thinking through security race. If you lose your hard drive on, we can go and make sure that the data is not removed. So that's on the security front. On the privacy side, as a corporation, William C. Is very careful about the data that we have access to on. Then you think about a HBC. So being in charge of H. P. C for Cordelia emcee way actually are part of how the data gets created, gets transferred, gets generated, curated and then stored. Of course, storage s O. What we want to make sure is our customers feel like where that one company that can help them through their journey for their data. And as you heard Michael this morning during keynote, >> uh, getting that value out of the data because it's really where that little transformation is going to get everybody to the next level. But right now there's a lot of data. Has Nick stated this data has more personal information at times? Andan i'll add one more thing way. Want to really make sure that innovation is not stifled and the way we get there is to make sure >> that the data sets are as broad as possible, and today it's very difficult to share data. Sets mean that there are parts of the industry there are so worried about data that they will not even get it anywhere else than their own data center and locked behind closed doors. But if you think about all the data scientists, they're craving more data. And the way we can get there is with what make it talked about is making sure that the data that is collected is free of personal information and can still be qualified for some analysis and letting all the data scientists out there to get a lot of value out of it. >> So HBC can help make the data scientist job simpler or simplify evaluating this innumerable amun of data. >> Correct. So what in the days you had an Excel spreadsheet and wanted to run and put the table on it, you could do that on a laptop for end up tablet. When you start thinking about finding a black hole in the galaxy, you can do that on tablet. So you're gonna have to use several computers in a cluster with the right storage of the right interconnect. And that's why it's easy comes in place. >> I mean, if I man a tactical level, what you'LL see with HBC computing is when someone's in the moment, right? You want to be able to recognize that person has given me the right to communicate to them or has not given me the right to communicate to them, even though they're trying to do something that could be a transaction. The ability to say Hey, I have I know that this person's or this device is operating here is this and they have given me these permissions. You've got to do that in real time, and that's what you're looking for. HBC competing to do. That's what you're saying. I need my G p you to process in that way, and I need that cpt kind of meat it from the courts. The edges say Yep, you can't communicate. No, you can't. Here's where your permissions like. So, >> Nick, what should we >> be looking for? Coming out of this consortium is people are watching around the industry. You know what, what, what >> what expect for us? The consortium's about people understand that they can trust that they're data's being used properly, wisely, and it's being used in the way it was intended to be used so again, part of the framework is what do you expect to do with the data so that the person understands what their data is being used for the analysis being done? So they have full disclosure. So the goal here is you can trust your data's being used. The way was intended. You could trust that. It's in a secure manner. You can trust that your privacy is still in place. That's what we want this construction to create that framework to allow people to have that trust and confidence. And we want the organization to be able to not, you know, to be able to actually to share that information to again move that date economy forward. >> That trust is Nirvana. Well, Nick Terry, thank you so much for joining suing me on the cue this afternoon. Fascinating conversation about HPC data security and privacy. We can't wait to hear what's in store next for this consortium. So you're gonna have to come back. Thank >> you. We'LL be back. Excellent. Thanks so much. >> Our pleasure. First Minutemen, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching us live from Las Vegas. The keeps coverage of day one of del technology World twenty nineteen. Thanks for watching

(bright orchestral music) >> I'm Peter Burris and welcome to another Cube Conversation from our beautiful studios here in Palo Alto, California. Not a great show today. First off, being joined by my colleague at SiliconANGLE Wikibon, Dave Vellante. >> Peter >> But the real star of the show, Nick Curcuru with MasterCard. Welcome to The Cube Nick. >> Thanks for having me. >> So Nick, MasterCard, 165 million transactions an hour. A financial juggernaut. Blockchain, interesting technology, a lot of applications. How are they going to come together? >> Well, the biggest thing that we look at when we look at those two technologies: our world which is the network and you look at blockchain, is they're the challenge. And I think we have the opportunity to actually meet the challenge and those challenges are speed, transparency of the transaction itself, and actually even trying to reduce the cost of those transactions, especially when you talk cross border. You know when you're going from country to country right now blockchain has a big cost in order to let that happen. The other component is that transparency. I need to know who I am dealing with on the other side and create an auditable trail to understand how that transaction is going through, and again this is something that we do within our core business and again, we're trying to make that meet and then work on the speed. Again, one of the things we pride ourselves are on that 165 million transactions per hour, making it a smooth flow, making it seamless, making it frictionless, that we can do. So again, can we do the same now with blockchain. You know, and for us, we're experimenting now with our B2B, but we hopefully will be able to move that right into individuals as well, to the consumer level. >> So, we're a decade into when Satoshi, whoever he or she was created Bitcoin. >> Or them. >> Or them and yeah, was it the Russians? People are asking that question, so who knows? But, of course a lot of people have been facing negative comments in the press, et cetera. What was your motivation for exploring blockchain, starting to experiment with it? Take us through that if you would. >> Well you know part of what we started to see is that it started to gain traction. That was the biggest thing, and as you start to take a look at more and more people that started to use that technology, it's one of those items that in the beginning we're like okay it's nice it's a hobby right as it started to come out. But as you started to see some more heavyweights come into the place to use it and actually utilize what that technology can provide, we're like, there is something here. Again, MasterCard, our CEO has been very good to say, we need to always be thinking outside of our core. What else do we have to be able to include to allow our MasterCard stakeholders, our banks, our issuers, and everyone, the opportunities that we can continuously expand. So our CEO has been really good about that. And when blockchain started to gain some momentum, he goes, we need to actually take a look, so our guys in the labs, our smart people that sit there in O'Fallon and New York City started to explore how do we take what we know, apply it here to help with that particular way a transaction is being done, and then, can we really allow ourselves and blockchain to grow? So, that's pretty much where we started. Again, it was a little hobby, we started to see it pick up momentum, and about three years ago we were like, there is something here. We need to actually begin to think about how we can interact with this form of payment. >> So what are you actually doing? Are you experimenting, kicking the tires, trying to figure out the use cases? >> That's actually everything that we're doing. Right now, we've actually got a few patents that have just come out, which is very good for what we are trying to accomplish. Right now, we're in the B2B space because that's what we're watching mostly is being used right now is in that business to business space. So we're out there piloting. We actually have set up a whole bunch of APIs to allow people to actually put the blockchain inside, whether it's a mobile device that you want to use, or within the Internet of things. So we have developed a set of APIs that we have got out there that we are allowing our different people within B2B to use, to experiment, to start to say, hey give us feedback on how are they operating. Is it seamless, is it frictionless, are we reducing that operational time, making it efficient, reducing those costs. So that's what we're beginning to roll out. And again, our goal is, if we can do it in B2B, how do we finally get it to the consumer? Because again, that's going to be a big part of what people are going to want to do, to be able to do those transactions amongst themselves. >> When you think about things like AML and Know Your Customer KYC, do you see blockchain as having a role there or does it sort of accentuate your need to understand different ways to know your customer and fight money laundering. >> Well that's actually a big part of it. That's the whole thing we talk about being able to authorization and authentication. So there is a big thing, again, when you deal with blockchain, people, you got the wire in transit right? And there are people trying to skim off that, trying to find a way to get into your bank account, basically, because that's really what you're exposing because you're making a payment. So the question for us is okay, again, that's a core competency of ours is data in motion and securing the transaction while it's in motion before that. So for us, when you start to take a look at the way we can do the authorization and authentication becomes a big deal. And our core competency is to do that, to make sure that you can't have anti-money laundering, to make sure that you can't have fraud existing because we can verify it's you who is transacting with Dave, that you are the two people transacting, just like we do with a card, right? And when you do the pin, chip, we know it's you. Even with our new products like new data with biometrics, we know it's you. We can validate and verify and authenticate it's you. That's where we think we can provide tremendous value with the blockchain. >> So blockchain is kind of a hot new technology, but there's got to be more than just the fact that it's a hot new technology. Give us some examples of some use cases that you're envisioning that will be made possible and will be sustained with the blockchain approach. >> A lot of it is actually, if you take a look at the supply chain, the ability to make sure that when I need goods and services, not only, I don't have to wait for it. I think actually one of the best stories that we heard when it came down to the blockchain is how, actually the Defense Department has used it. So for example, if you can imagine, on an aircraft carrier, there's a plane that went down, right? That needed a part. Or I think it was a helicopter, sorry. And it needed a part. Well the question was it's in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. So how do you get the part there? Well if you go through the normal channels, to get that helicopter up and running, it's going to take you two to three months to get it there. But using blockchain, because it's anonymous and you have some privacy within it, being able to say, can you send me the specs? This particular ship had a metal 3D printer on it. So not only were they able to send the specs via blockchain in an anonymous manner so no one else could pick it up, they could actually put it on the ship. They could actually create the part, and what's really kind of cool is they actually put a flaw. They put a scratch across the part itself so that you knew the guys who sent it are the guys that you are getting it from and no one else picked it up along the way. So that's one way to be able to do it, to actually create the parts that you need when you need them in a secure manner. The other part, if you believe it or not, I was just at a sports conference, and the other thing was is can I actually use blockchain to transfer my tickets? So you're in Palo Alton. I got 9ers tickets. I'm a season ticket holder, and what I want to be able to do is send you my tickets, but you need to know it's me who has the tickets, not a fraudster, right, that's going up there saying I got two tickets for sale or whatever it may be. So I can use blockchain in an anonymous transaction You send me the funds, you know it's me, and I can send you the tickets because I am a verified, valid ticket holder. So there is another case where it is consumer to consumer. >> But coming back to the B2B examples, there are a lot of circumstances when a business realizes that entering into a transaction is signaling an enormous amount of information other than just the part that they're getting or the business activity that they're performing, and so it has the potential to be a great technology to dramatically focus the characteristics of the transaction just on the transaction and keep all the other signaling that might otherwise be picked up on out of the equation. Is that right? >> Yeah, that's absolutely correct. The other part is it creates that efficiency in that transaction itself. We're always worried about can you reduce paperwork? We did that, that's the 80's and 90's, right? And then it became into now we got these electronic transfers. But what blockchain is allowing you to do is almost in real time to be able to order those goods and services and get them delivered when you need them and be able to run those transactions. That's a big part to it. Now we're getting faster and better at what we're doing. We're not letting antiquated processes and procedures really bog us down. And again, the blockchain allows you to do that, allows an easier transfer of cash amongst the providers, a lower cost in many cases on that transfer when you're talking about the funds, more of the ability to actually interact with the consumer itself, especially if you've got artificial intelligence, because one of the other use cases in the supply chain is the auto-ordering. Right, so this thing is learning, it's understanding what's coming off the shelves, what's going on the shelves, where it needs to be. Can I actually that to help me distribute my products amongst my warehouses, amongst my stores? Blockchain is doing that. It's automating that and allows those transactions, both I need this and you sent it to me as well as actually going through and making the financial transaction happen. >> So you guys must be having some mind-melting conversations inside your company. (laughing) When you think about the examples that you gave those transactions, I presume, the ticket transaction, doesn't require a trusted third party to validate that transaction because the technology of blockchain is doing that and then yet, but MasterCard is a trusted third party. So how are you thinking about, this might change your business? You've still got amazing assets. You've got a brand, you've got a network, you've got your partnerships, you've got the relationships that you have with the suppliers and customers and consumers, et cetera. So how do you think about that notion of when you talk to the world of crypto. Oh let's find where there's a trusted third party and we can disintermediate that. So what do you think all this means for the future of financial services and companies like MasterCard? >> Well, you know for us it's not the ability to say that one is going to... for a lot of folks, their complaint is, what we hear is, blockchain is going to take over everything. Cryptocurrency is going to... no it's how you actually have to live within that, because you're going to have to have multiple ways to do that. So that's how we feel we can make that help those folks in the transition. So that trusted third party, okay you can have five trusted third parties take care of your credit cards, your debit cards, your blockchain, your cryptocurrency. Our goal is, just come to us. Let's get you that solution. We can help embed that API. We can give you some flexibility. We can give you the reach of being able to have you know 22,000 banks and issuers worldwide at your disposal if you need that. So again, that's where we see ourselves really playing a good role, and that's how it's going to change our business. >> But it's, related to that, it's we can bring the scale, we can bring your operational certainty, we can bring you all the things because at the end of the day, it's still a computer, right, and it has to stay up and it has to be auditable and it has to be backed up and that's something that there's not a lot of companies that know how to operate at the kind of scale you guys do. >> Technology platform is critical. >> Absolutely >> Yes, absolutely. And again, that's when you look at quadruple and quint- types of redundancy, not just primary and secondary. I mean we are running four or five types of redundancy to make sure those networks are up and running. >> So Nick, I got a question because one of the things that I find interesting about all this and I know that you and I have talked about this, Dave, is that a blockchain presumes that there's some sort of contract in the middle of all this, but the processes of running contracts are complex. The design of the blockchain is crucial ultimately to the behavior and the success of the blockchain. Not a lot of tools to do that. How do you think the future of blockchain design is going to evolve so that issues like scale, technological, operational certainty, et cetera, come into play? >> Well, it's almost, as you take a look at it, it's almost the way that you have to be interacting today. So you've got the edge where the transaction is happening right and you've got the core part of the business where you're using that machine learning, the artificial intelligence to help you make better decisions. And then of course, you've got the deep learning. So as you look at those technologies, it's how you're handling within that contract, where things need to be done. Right, so again, if you're looking at how we supply a shelf, well that's not going to be done potentially at the edge. That's potentially in your core. It could be part of deep learning, but then how do you bring it to the edge to make that transaction go through to make that part of blockchain? So as you think about the contracts, something that's real important with blockchain is picking the right partner to go to market with because, again, you're looking at those technologies you want to make sure are in place. >> So, you're adding to a notion of scale and operational certainty, the expertise associated with how do you design these things well so that they can be put in an operation and you don't have to, you know, the immutability issue doesn't come and bite you in the butt in six months. >> Yeah, absolutely. So again, what you're looking for is, what we always look for are those people that have the right ability for scale, have the global experience that we really need, because again, when you think about it, you're in a global economy, so you're really looking to see how those people interact and can they do it. You're looking for that partner. You're not looking for the guy who's got the coolest, latest technology. Those are always fine to know about, but again, you're always worried about scale at this point. You're looking at flexibility. You know, how do I, how can I be flexible in the way I'm making those contracts and those contracts always change. It's not like there's a template, all right? Almost with blockchain, it's almost individual companies and B2B are coming back with their own types of contracts. >> Sure. >> And that's the part that you also have to have make sure is available to you, both from a technology standpoint and being able to you know actually operationalize it. >> Peter, at the top, talked about the transaction volumes being you know limited, you were talking about Bitcoin transaction volumes. Obviously, in the near term anyway, limits some of the use cases, but I wonder how you guys are thinking about solving that problem. Do you see that as MasterCard's role or is that, is Google, a Google-like company going to solve that? Is it going to be a partnership? How do you see that shaking out? >> It is going to be, it's a collaborative partnership, so again, we have conversations with people like, the Googles of the world, the Microsofts, the Dells, and people like that. It's a collaboration now. So just like four years ago. Remember Hadoop's community? >> Yeah. >> So we see it, there is a blockchain community because we are all seeing the same issues, but what's nice is, because of the experience that we're having through being part of a community, we're helping each other solve those particular problems. Because again, Google sees a different part of blockchain. Right, we see a different part of blockchain. And when you start to bring those resources together and you start talking to them and the Microsofts and the Dells and even the Amazons of the world. When you start putting everybody into a room, we're frenemies at that point. Because we're all trying to solve the same problem. We all have different interests within the major issue, but if we can do it together, tide rises all boats, right? >> The best innovations are combinatorial. >> Correct. >> Taking a lot of folks with expertise and mature technology and bringing it together and creating something new not just because you're creating something new but because you have the social reach to actually have it happen in the marketplace. >> Absolutely. >> Nick Curcuru, MasterCard, thanks very much for being on The Cube and talking about blockchain. >> Appreciate it. >> Thank you for having me, thanks guys. (orchestral music fading out)

live from austin texas it's the cube covering deli MC world 2016 brought to you by delhi MC now here are your hosts dave vellante and stu minimus welcome back to dell emc world at austin texas 2016 this is the cube the worldwide leader in live tech coverage dale skiffington is here sees the chief privacy officer at dell she's joined by nick koo koo koo roo was a vice president of big data practice at mastercard folks welcome to the cube thanks for coming on thank you having us very important topic a privacy security I like to talk to them as two sides of the same coin but Dale why don't you start it off tell us what you guys are talking about here at Delhi MC world thanks well oftentimes you're right privacy and security are two really different topics to talk about and Nick will cover a lot this afternoon about the importance of securing data in order to have a successful big data program but privacy is also a concern to our shareholders and stakeholders and that is privacy deals with what information do you collect what information how do you use that information and who to whom do you should with whom do you share it and that's a little different than securing the data and our regulators and our customers are getting increasingly concerned about those issues and so it requires some governance some thought to be put into those programs and that's what we're going to talk about today and it's interesting Nick because in 2006 when the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure enabled or required organizations to retain and produce electronic material it instantly became the notion that data was a liability and everybody wanted to understand okay when can i delete it when can I get rid of it and then when this big data mean occurred all of a sudden data becomes an asset in a big way even though it's always been an asset we know that but in a bigger way it was almost like a bit flip and it sort of changed the attitude is that a reasonable description and how did that affect how you approached privacy well part of it is is you're absolutely right he became an asset everyone started wanted to monetize the data that they were carrying because there were great nuggets that set inside that data so we started talking about security you know the original he's talked about personally identifiable information right and that's what everyone's at name address phone numbers you know you many email addresses but then it started to turn into as we started to bring other sources of data such as Facebook Twitter all that data that sits out there in social media together we started to realize other pieces of information needed to be secure as well so now you've broaden the way that you want to take look at security because all this unstructured data starts to come in where you can identify people through a picture a photograph through a twitter feed what you want to be able to say is how do I protect them as much as I protect someone's credit card or someone's personally identifiable name address and phone number tell what talk about your role at Adele it's interesting to have a chief privacy officer on a tail and now of course Delhi MC he opens up a whole new can of worms if I could say that yes so together with our chief information security officer who looks at the policies that procedures around securing data my team is responsible for the policies procedures and controls relating to the use of the data so you know in terms of the reason why our session today is called the ethical use of data is because the laws are lagging a little bit in terms of requiring certain things to be put in place about the use they're starting to develop but what each regulator has said in the US and Europe and elsewhere is they've given companies and technology companies a chance to put in good governance in place and they've asked the companies to put in internal review boards and an accountable responsible individuals in those organizations to make good decisions about the use of data and that's what a chief privacy officer helps the organization do develop the governance structure and help with the accountability of the use of decisions around using data so they obviously the big discussion going on like this inside of MasterCard and Nicki we're talking about everybody wants to monetize the data or figure out how data can help them monetize so how do you deal with that you know analytics and you know you guys talk about the creepy factor I always worried the Amazon knows more about me than I do you know what I'm out of something and I'm reordering and my patterns and and that's kind of creepy so how do you deal with that you know part of what we do and my side of the house is we anonymize the data in many cases for that type of analysis so we try to take that personally identifiable information out of the analysis so again I can we call it an autumn is a shin where we actually on the front end say I don't care who you are what I care about is your are your patterns and can I figure out what those patterns are to create affinities so by taking them out front end and anonymizing the data doing the analysis on it and then potentially at the back end our customers re identifying those people that we have anonymized on the front end that makes it a little bit better because it's no longer a creepy factor per se because when you work with someone like Dale and what the usage of that data is in many cases when you do that analysis it's doing it for the good of that person so that person either a gets a healthier lifestyle be gets to see the products and services that they want to see or want to be able to you know purchase or whatever so again for us it's been able to understand how we protect the individual as you look through the entire analysis string and that's what we do on the advisor size with our customers so that's cool but the chief marketing officer he or she lets you identify that individual you know the the customer of one you know that one-to-one personal interaction how do you square that circle well that's actually we work with the marketing team they always say that well we have a population of 5 million in our database and I want to look at all five minutes like yes you can look at all 5 million but anonymize them because most cases you're going to send us your data scientists and there's 20 or 30 data scientists that could be working on these five million to create your campaigns they don't need to know names phone numbers or addresses so secure the data so that you're not carrying identifiable information through the ecosystem only at the very end when you say out of that population of 5 million mr. marketer here's the half a million that have a high propensity to do what you're asking do is when you re identifier so at that particular point you haven't put 5 million people at risk you've actually put half a million people what you want them to do which is the propensity to purchase or the propensity to taking action so again at the end is when you re identify and say these are the number of these are the people we should be sending a mail or two or an email to or so an offer and that narrows the threat correct matrix if I use that term and and reduces the risk very much stuff to the consumer and obviously to the organization yeah and that's why when we work with people like our privacy officers it's what are you trying to do in the analysis so that we can understand that data usage because that becomes important with what the data is that's carried through the analysis phase you may not have to carry gender you may not have to carry ethnic background you may not have to carry and these other markers that could put someone as Anna you can identify someone with so if we can keep those out it's how you're using the data and the analysis at the end and to follow up on that you know so that's the what the privacy office does it works with the business when they are envisioning a particular use of data and application a product that's going to do some of these analytics we work with them to design that product to avoid some of these risks sometimes you can sometimes the answer is we absolutely need that personal information because that's the purpose of that particular project and in those cases then we look at did you have permission from the data subject to do what you want to do with the data and if not does the society good outweigh the risks and can you mitigate those risks in certain ways so that's the balancing act that we do and that's when we decide when it's past that creepy line or when it hasn't because my role within the company is to advocate for the data subject to make sure that their expectations are being met by Del I wonder if we can unpack another use case which is fraud detection which is advanced so rapidly in the last 10 years it used to be six months and you find maybe something happened you had a look at your own statements and now you're getting texts and very proactive but certainly a lot of information has to be accessible but it's very narrow in terms of the individual can you talk about that using yeah the one thing that we find from our customers are the people we work with when you talk about fraud people don't mind that you're watching because you're reducing their liability you're reducing someone from stealing that credit card from them or being able to run up charges so when you talk about protecting someone protecting someone's digitalpersona their wallet they're willing to give and take a little bit on what information they provide to you they don't mind that you know that Pam in austin texas today and then someone's trying to charge in you know guitar at the same day they understand that it's not a privacy issue but i want to ask you about the pendulum is kind of swung like I said it used to be it would take forever to find out if there was some kind of fraud and then it became like this flawed of false positives and and and it seems to be getting better and presumably it's because a big data analytics but I wonder if you could talk absolutely our fraud teams matter of fact at mastercard we work very hard to reduce the false positives because that creates a bad experience for both the user as well as the issue of that card right so what we try to do all the times you can continue to do learning machine learning the artificial intelligence how to reduce that as you also look at people's patterns is this person a professional traveler or always traveling so that goes into the algorithm which are take a look at a false positive around fraud do they buy these types of goods with their credit cards so going you start to look at the protection and you start to add those rules into it and you start to actually reduce it it's all about learning it's not just one and done those algorithms have to be constantly updated in real time in some cases so that you're constantly in a learning phase you're building models and iterating those models and that's always a challenge but I'd love to talk about that if we have time but but I wanted to ask you Dale talk about deep learning Michael was talking a lot about machine learning and deep learning and part of his visionary discussion this morning what's the role of transparency how do you guide your constituents in terms of transparency what are the guidelines how transparent when to be trans Aaron yeah that's a great question and you know transparency was where the privacy profession lived 10 years ago it was all about giving the consumers notice about why you're collecting the data and using it consistent with that notice and being very visible with privacy statements and you know there's lots of laws around that now where you have to give specific notices the problem with big data is the power of it is using the data in ways that you didn't envision when you collected the data and that is the dilemma for privacy and big data and that's where the privacy community is trying to develop some tools for organizations to do a balancing act of okay the consumer didn't know that when they gave you that data it was going to be used for this purpose but they're not it's good its tangential to that use so that would be an acceptable use but if it's going to so surprised the consumer that you're using the data for you really need to go back and get reap Reaper missioned and in some countries it's an opt-in permission I'm going to mix Pam law spam and do not call laws seem trivial doesn't it you were mentioning off camera that I think it's your CISO is participates in public policy through the Obama administration is that as that was it you say so it's part of our DNA is security and securing the data our CEOs made a tremendous commitment to make sure that we can apply our best practices into and help the community understand how to make sure the data is secure because that's a digital persona we consider ourselves to be stewards of data not owners of data someone has entrusted us with that we want to make sure that we're constantly contributing back how to make sure it's secure and used right as we take a look at that how about regional nuances local laws haha describe sort of what you're seeing there how you address those complexities yeah so a good example is the new European regulation that's going into effect may of 2018 that has a new specific requirement about profiling automated decision that's used for marketing purposes you have to have an opt-in for using that data companies are going to struggle with how to implement that but nonetheless it's a new law and that law has four percent of annual revenue as a potential penalty Wow so it may get this straight you have to opt-in to be automated profiled automated profiling where it's going to be used for certain types of purposes decisions and you know what they're really trying to avoid is the things that the Obama administration came out with a big data report as well discrimination decisions that are made about insurance and credit etc that are automated decisions and then marketing decisions on those you know with that data the law now requires very specific opt-in and and transparency boy that's going to be tricky yeah the other thing for us is which was just described as working with people is the ability to tag that data as it's being brought in so as you think a big day that ingestion that tagging of that data and carrying the metadata what types of data needs to be tagged what types of data you have to be watching out for was it an opt-in versus an opt-out all that adds into understanding the power of what big data can do to protect both the individual and the company from being able to do something wrong with information so the nice part is with big data you can do that so again we're working with our customers and with the privacy officers understand how you do your data classifications what data needs to be tagged and then to be able to follow that full lineage through the entire ecosystem and obviously that has to be done at the point of creation correct otherwise it's it's not going to scale and and technology helps you solve that problem and that's been a challenge for years but it's a day where that actually works now yeah there's a lot of great partners and we're here at you know Dell world WMC world and they're here as well to help on that ingestion of data as it's coming in to start to tag it and to start to index and catalog it if that's the power of what big data can help you with because before you had to do it individually now you can actually use the tools you can use AI to actually understand about that information coming in to do that tagging to create that lineage it's very very important and very powerful especially as we start looking at what's coming down the road till you get involved in in helping guide solutions is that sir we have a process that is called the privacy impact assessment process and it's in the life cycle development of our products and services so much like the security reviews that are done when we when we commercialize a product we now are interjecting ourselves with a privacy review so if that project or product development or application is intending to use big data analytics as part of it we will we will help guide the business whether they need to build in opt-in consents what it is that what do they want to do with the product and what kinds of things are from a compliance perspective there do they need to build in so that we are at the table with our business partners all right we got a rep and Nick I'll give you the last word to mean so festive as the big data analytics I'll call you a visionary you know what's the future hold where's your focus in the next you know near the midterm you know under stay right with the ethics world and and probably always tell people what we're asking now is just because you have the data doesn't mean you have to use the data just because you have that information you've got to become a parent and start to be able to put some parameters around how that data is use so people in the privacy world you need to bring them to the table so again just because you have it doesn't mean you should be using it and now it's better to be a parent then just let people run crazy right Nick Goodell thanks very much for coming too i love this conversation is fascinating thank you for working do all right keep right to everybody will be back this is dell emc world from Austin Texas this is the cube right back

>>Welcome back to the cubes coverage of ADA reinvent 2021 here, the cube coverage. I'm Judd for a, your host we're on the ground with two sets on the floor, real event. Of course, it's hybrid. It's online as well. You can check it out there. All the on-demand replays are there. We're here with Sandy Carter, worldwide vice president, public sector partners and programs. And we've got Fred Swanick, her founder, and chief curator of the room. We're talking about getting the best talent programming and in the cloud, doing great things, innovation all happening, Sandy. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on the cube, but appreciate it. Thanks for halfway to see. Okay. So tell us about the room. What is the room what's going on? >>Um, well, I mentioned in the room is to help the world's most extraordinary do us to fulfill their potential. So, um, it's a community of exceptional talent that we are building throughout the world, um, and connecting this talent to each other and connecting them to the organizations that are looking for people who can really move the needle for those organizations. >>So what kind of results are you guys seeing right now? Give us some stats. >>Well, it's a, it's a relatively new concept. So we're about 5,000 members so far, um, from 77 different countries. Um, and this is, you know, we're talking about sort of the top two to 3% of talent in different fields. Um, and, um, as we go forward, you know, we're really looking, seeing this as an opportunity to curate, um, exceptional talent. Um, and it feels like software engineering, data science, UX, UI design, cloud computing, um, and, uh, it really helped to, um, identify diverse talent as well from pockets that have typically been untapped for technology. Okay. >>I want to ask you kind of, what's the, how you read the tea leaves. How do I spot the talent, but first talk about the relationship with Amazon. What's the program together? How you guys working together? It's a great mission. I mean, we need more people anyway, coding everywhere, globally. What's the AWS connection. >>So Fred and I met and, uh, he had this, I mean the brilliant concept of the room. And so, uh, obviously you need to run that on the cloud. And so he's got organizations he's working at connecting them through the room and kind of that piece that he was needing was the technology. So we stepped in to help him with the technology piece because he's got all the subject matter expertise to train 3 million Africans, um, coming up on tech, we also were able to provide him some of the classwork as well for the cloud computing models. So some of those certs and things that we want to get out into the marketplace as well, we're also helping Fred with that as well. So >>I mean, want to, just to add onto that, you know, one of the things that's unique about the room is that we're trying to really build a long-term relationship with talent. So imagine joining the room as a 20 year old and being part of it until you're 60. So you're going to have a lot of that. You collect on someone as they progress through different stages of their career and the ability for us to leverage that data, um, and continuously learn about someone's, you know, skills and values and use, um, predictive algorithms to be able to match them to the right opportunities at the right time of their lives. And this is where the machine learning comes in and the, you know, the data lake that we're building to build to really store this massive data that we're going to be building on the top talent to the world. >>You know, that's a really good point. It's a list that's like big trend in tech where it's, it's still it's over the life's life of the horizon of the person. And it's also blends community, exactly nurturing, identifying, and assisting. But at the same day, not just giving people the answer, they got to grow on their own, but some people grow differently. So again, progressions are nonlinear sometimes and creativity can come out of nowhere. Got it. Uh, which brings me up to my number one question, because this always was on my mind is how do you spot talent? What's the secret sauce? >>Well, there is no real secret source because every person is unique. So what we look for are people who have an extra dose of five things, courage, passion, resilience, imagination, and good values, right? And this is what we're looking for. And you will someone who is unusually driven to achieve great things. Um, so of course, you know, you look at it from a combination of their, their training, you know, what they, what they've learned, but also what they've actually done in the workplace and feedback that you get from previous employers and data that we collect through our own interactions with this person. Um, and so we screened them through, you know, with the town that we had, didn't fly, we take them through really rigorous selection process. So, um, it takes, uh, for example, people go through an online assessments and then they go through an in-person interview and then we'll take them through a one to three month bootcamp to really identify, you know, people who are exceptional and of course get data from different sources about the person as well. >>Sandy, how do you see this collaboration helping, uh, your other clients? I mean, obviously talent, cross pollinates, um, learnings, what's your, you see this level of >>It has, uh, you know, AWS grows, obviously we're going to need more talent, especially in Africa because we're growing so rapidly there and there's going to be so much talent available in Africa here in just a few short years. Most of the tech talent will be in Africa. I think that that's really essential, but also as looking after my partners, I had Fred today on the keynote explaining to all my partners around the world, 55,000 streaming folks, how they can also leverage the room to fill some of their roles as well. Because if you think about it, you know, we heard from Presidio there's 3 million open cyber security roles. Um, you know, we're training 20 of mine million cloud folks because we have a gap. We see a gap around the world. And part of my responsibility with partners is making sure that they can get access to the right skills. And we're counting on the room and what Fred has produced to produce some of those great skills. You have AI, AML and dev ops. Tell us some of the areas you haven't. >>You know, we're looking at, uh, business intelligence, data science, um, full-stack software engineering, cybersecurity, um, you know, IOT talent. So fields that, um, the world needs a lot more talented. And I think today, a lot of technology, um, talent is moving from one place to another and what we need is new supply. And so what the room is doing is not only a community of top 10, but we're actually producing and training a lot more new talent. And that was going to hopefully, uh, remove a key bottleneck that a lot of companies are facing today as they try to undergo the digital trends. >>Well, maybe you can add some hosts on there. We need some cube hosts, come on, always looking for more talent on the set. You could be there. >>Yeah. The other interesting thing, John, Fred and I on stage today, he was talking about how easy to the first narrative written for easy to was written by a gentleman out of South Africa. So think about that right. ECE to talent. And he was talking about Ian Musk is based, you know, south African, right? So think about all the great talent that exists. There. There you go. There you go. So how do you get access to that talent? And that's why we're so excited to partner with Fred. Not only is he wicked impressive when a time's most influential people, but his mission, his life purpose has really been to develop this great talent. And for us, that gets us really excited because we, yeah, >>I think there's plenty of opportunities to around new business models in the U S for instance, um, my friends started upstart, which they were betting on people almost like a stock market. You know, almost like currency will fund you and you pay us back. And there's all kinds of gamification techniques that you can start to weave into the system. Exactly. As you get the flywheel going, exactly, you can look at it holistically and say, Hey, how do we get more people in and harvest the value of knowledge? >>That's exactly. I mean, one of the elements of the technology platform that we developed to the Amazon with AWS is the room intelligence platform. And in there is something called legacy points. So every time you, as a member of the room, give someone else an opportunity. You invest in their venture, you hire them, you mentor them, you get points and you can leverage those points for some really cool experiences, right? So you want to game-ify um, this community that is, uh, you know, essentially crowdsourcing opportunities. And you're not only getting things from the room, but you're also giving to others to enable everyone to grow. >>Yeah, what's the coolest thing you've seen. And this is a great initiative. First of all, it's a great model. I think it's, this is the future. Cause I'm a big believer that communities groups, as we get into this hybrid world is going to open up the virtualization. What the virtual world has shown us is virtualization, which is a cloud technology when Amazon started with Zen, which is virtualization technology, but virtualization, conceptually is replicating things. So if you think hybrid world, you can blend the connect people together. So now you have this social construct, this connective tissue between relationships, and it's always evolving, you know, this and you've been involved in community from, from, from the early days when you have that social evolution, it's not software as a mechanism. It's a human thing. Exactly. It's organism, it evolves. And so if you can get the software to think like that and the group to drive the behavior, it's not community software. >>Exactly. I mean, we say that the room is not an online community. It's really an offline community powered by technology. So our vision is to actually have physical rooms in different cities around the world, whether it's talent gathers, but imagine showing up at a, at a room space and we've got the technology to know what your interests are. We know that you're working on a new venture and there's this, there's a venture capitalists in that area, investing that venture, we can connect you right then that space powered by the, >>And then you can have watch parties. For instance, there's an event going on in us. You can do some watch parties and time shifted and then re replicated online and create a localization, but yet have that connection in >>Present. Exactly, exactly. Exactly. So what are the >>Learnings, what's your big learning share with the audience? What you've learned, because this is really kind of on the front edge of the new kind of innovation we're seeing, being enabled with software. >>I mean, one thing we're learning is that, uh, talent is truly, uh, evenly distribute around the world, but what is not as opportunity. And so, um, there's some truly exceptional talent that is hidden and on tap today. And if we can, you know, and, and today with the COVID pandemic companies or around the world, a lot more open to hiring more talent. So there's a huge opportunity to access new talent from, from sources that haven't been tapped before. Well, but also learnings the power of blending, the online and offline world. So, um, you know, the room is, as I mentioned, brings people together, normally in line, but also offline. And so when you're able to meet talent and actually see someone's personality and get a sense of the culture fit the 360 degree for your foot, some of that, you can't just get on a LinkedIn. Yes. That I built it to make a decision, to hire someone who is much better. And finally, we're also learning about the importance of long-term relationships. One of my motives in the room is relationships not transactions where, um, you actually get to meet someone in an environment where they're not pretending in an interview and you get to really see who they are and build relationships with them before you need to hide them. And these are some really unique ways that we think we can redefine how talent finds opportunity in the 21st. So >>You can put a cube in every room, we pick >>You up because, >>And the cube, what we do here is that when people collaborate, whether they're doing an interview together, riffing and sharing content is creating knowledge, but that shared experience creates a bonding. So when you have that kind of mindset and this room concept where it's not just resume, get a job, see you later, it's learning, having peers and colleagues and people around you, and then seeing them in a journey, multiple laps around the track of humans >>And going through a career, not just a job. >>Yes, exactly. And then, and then celebrating the ups and downs in learning. It's not always roses, as you know, it's always pain before you accelerate. >>Exactly. And you never quite arrive at your destination. You're always growing, and this is where technology can really play. >>Okay. So super exciting. Where's this go next, Sandy. And next couple of minutes left in. >>So, um, one of the things that we've envisioned, so this is not done yet, but, um, Fred and I imagined like, what if you could have an Alexa set up and you could say, Hey, you know, Alexa, what should be my next job? Or how should I go train? Or I'm really interested in being on a Ted talk. What could I do having an Alexa skill might be a really cool thing to do. And with the great funding that Fred Scott and you should talk about the $400 million to that, he's already raised $400 million. I mean, there, I think the sky's the limit on platforms. Like >>That's a nice chunk of change. There it is. We've got some fat financing as they say, >>But, well, it's a big mission. So to request significant resources, >>Who's backing you guys. What's the, who's the, where's the money coming from? >>It's coming from, um, the MasterCard foundation. They, our biggest funder, um, as well as, um, some philanthropists, um, and essentially these are people who truly see the potential, uh, to unlock, um, opportunity for millions of people global >>For Glen, a global scale. The vision has global >>Executive starting in Africa, but truly global. Our vision is eventually to have a community of about 10 to 20 million of the most extraordinary doers in the world, in this community, and to connect them to opportunity >>Angela and diverse John. I mean, this is the other thing that gets me excited because innovation comes from diversity of thought and given the community, we'll have so many diverse individuals in it that are going to get trained and mentored to create something that is amazing for their career as well. That really gets me excited too, as well as Amazon website, >>Smart people, and yet identifying the fresh voices and the fresh minds that come with it, all that that comes together, >>The social capital that they need to really accelerate their impact. >>Then you read the room and then you get wherever you need. Thanks so much. Congratulations on your great mission. Love the room. Um, you need to be the in Cuban, every room, you gotta get those fresh voices out there. See any graduates on a great project, super exciting. And SageMaker, AI's all part of, it's all kind of, it's a cool wave. It's fun. Can I join? Can I play? I tell you I need a room. >>I think he's top talent. >>Thanks so much for coming. I really appreciate your insight. Great stuff here, bringing you all the action and knowledge and insight here at re-invent with the cube two sets on the floor. It's a hybrid event. We're in person in Las Vegas for a real event. I'm John ferry with the cube, the leader in global tech coverage. Thanks for watching.

(upbeat music) >> Hi, I'm Joe Rodriguez, Managing Director of Financial Services at Cloudera. Welcome to the Fight Fraud with Data session. At Cloudera we believe that fighting fraud begins with data. So financial services is Cloudera's largest industry vertical. We have approximately 425 global financial services customers, which consists of 82 out of a hundred of the largest global banks of which we have 27 that are globally systemic banks. Four out of the five top stock exchanges, eight out of the top 10 wealth management firms and all four of the top credit card networks. So as you can see, most financial services institutions utilize Cloudera for data analytics and machine learning. We also have over 20 central banks and a dozen or so financial regulators. So it's an incredible footprint which gives Cloudera lots of insight into the many innovations that our customers are coming up with. Criminals can steal thousands of dollars before a fraudulent transaction is detected. So the cost to purchase your account data is well worth the price to fraudsters. According to Experian, credit and a debit card account information sells on the dark web for a mere $5 with the CVV number and up to $110 if it comes with all the bank information, including your name, social security number, date of birth, complete account numbers, and other personal data. Our customers have several key data and analytics challenges when it comes to fighting financial crime. The volume of data that they need to deal with is huge and growing exponentially. All this data needs to be evaluated in real time. There are new sources of streaming data that need to be integrated with existing legacy data sources. This includes biometrics data and enhanced authentication video surveillance, call center data, and of course all that needs to be integrated with existing legacy data sources. There is an analytics Arms Race between the banks and the criminals, and the criminal networks never stop innovating. They also have to deal with disjointed security and governance. Security and governance policies are often set per data source or application requiring redundant work across workloads. And they have to deal with siloed environments. The specialized nature of platforms and people results in disparate data sources and data management processes. This duplicates efforts and divides the business risk and crime teams, limiting collaboration opportunities between them. CDP enhances financial crime solutions to be holistic by eliminating data gaps between siloed solutions, with an enterprise data approach, advanced data analytics and machine learning. By deploying an enterprise wide data platform, you reduce siloed divisions between business risk and crime teams and enable better collaboration through industrialized machine learning, you tighten up the loop between detection and new fraud patterns. Cloudera provides the data platform on which a best of breed applications can run and leverage integrated machine learning. Cloudera stands rather than replaces your existing fraud modeling applications. So Oracle, SAS, Actimize, to name a few, integrate with an enterprise data hub to scale the data, increase speed and flexibility and improve efficacy of your entire fraud system. It also centralizes the fraud workload on data that can be used for other use cases in applications like Enhanced KYC and Customer 360 for example. I just wanted to highlight a couple of our partners in financial crime prevention, Simudyne and Quantexa. So Simudyne provides fraud simulation using agent-based modeling machine learning techniques to generate synthetic transaction data. This data simulates potential fraud scenarios in a cost-effective GDPR-compliant virtual environment to significantly improve financial crime detection systems. Simudyne identifies future fraud topologies for millions of simulations that can be used to dynamically train new machine learning algorithms for enhanced identification. And Quantexa connects the dots within your data using dynamic entity resolution, and advanced network analytics to create context around your customers. This enables you to see the bigger picture and automatically assesses potential criminal behavior. Now let's go over some of our customers and how they're using Cloudera. First, we'll talk about United Overseas Bank or UOB. UOB is a leading full service bank in Asia with a network of more than 500 offices in 19 countries and territories, in Asia Pacific, Western Europe and North America. UOB built a modern data platform on Cloudera that gives it the flexibility and speed to develop new AI and machine learning solutions and to create a data-driven enterprise. UOB set up it's big data analytics center in 2017. It was Singapore's first centralized big data unit within a bank to deepen the bank's data analytic capabilities and to use data insights to enhance the bank's performance. Essential to this work was implementing a platform that could cost efficiently bring together data from dozens of separate systems and incorporate a range of unstructured data, including voice and text. Using Cloudera CDP and machine learning, UOB gained a richer understanding of its customer preferences to help make their banking experience simpler, safer, and more reliable. Working with Cloudera, UOB has a big data platform that gives business staff and data scientists, faster access to relevant and quality data for self-service analytics, machine learning and emerging artificial intelligence solutions. With new self-service analytics and machine learning driven insights, UOB has realized improvements in digital banking, asset management, compliance, AML, and more. Advanced AML detection capabilities, help analysts detect suspicious transactions either based on hidden relationships of shell companies and high risk individuals with Cloudera and machine learning technologies, UOB was able to enhance AML detection and reduce the time to identify new links from months to three weeks. Next, let's speak about MasterCard. So MasterCard's principle business is to process payments between banks and merchants and the credit issuing banks and credit unions of the purchasers who use the MasterCard brand debit and credit cards to make purchases. MasterCard chose Cloudera Enterprise for fraud detection and to optimize their DW infrastructure, delivering deep insights and best practices and big data security and compliance. Next, let's speak about Bank Rakyat in Indonesia or BRI. BRI is one of the largest and oldest banks in Indonesia and engages in the provision of general banking services. It's headquartered in Jakarta, Indonesia. BRI is well-known for its focus on microfinancing initiatives and serves over 75 million customers through its more than 11,000 offices and rural service outposts. BRI required better insight to understand customer activity and identify fraudulent transactions. The bank needed a solid foundation that allowed it to leverage the power of advanced analytics, artificial intelligence, and machine learning to gain better understanding of customers and the market. BRI used Cloudera Enterprise data platform to build an agile and reliable, predictive augmented intelligence solution to enhance its credit scoring system. And to address the rising concern around data security from regulators and customers, BRI developed a real-time fraud detection service powered by Cloudera and Kafka, BRI's data scientists developed a machine learning model for fraud detection by creating a behavioral scoring model based on customer savings, loan transactions, deposits, payroll and other financial real-time data. This led to improvements in its fraud detection and credit scoring capabilities, as well as the development of a new digital microfinancing product. With the enablement of real-time fraud detection, BRI was able to reduce the rate of fraud by 40%. It improved relationship manager productivity by two and a half fold. It improved the credit scoring system to cut down on micro-financing loan processing times from two weeks to two days to now two minutes. So fraud prevention is a good area to start with data focus if you haven't already. It offers a quick return on investment and it's a focused area that's not too entrenched across the company. To learn more about fraud prevention, go to www.cloudera.com, and you should schedule a meeting with Cloudera to learn even more. And with that, thank you for listening and thank you for your time. (upbeat music)

>>Uh, hi, I'm Joe Rodriguez, managing director of financial services at Cloudera. Uh, welcome to the fight fraud with a data session, uh, at Cloudera, we believe that fighting fraud with, uh, uh, begins with data. Um, so financial services is Cloudera's largest industry vertical. We have approximately 425 global financial services customers, uh, which consists of 82 out of a hundred of the largest global banks of which we have 27 that are globally systemic banks, uh, four out of the five top, uh, stock exchanges, uh, eight out of the top 10 wealth management firms and all four of the top credit card networks. So as you can see most financial services institutions, uh, utilize Cloudera for data analytics and machine learning, uh, we also have over 20 central banks and a dozen or so financial regulators. So it's an incredible footprint which gives Cloudera lots of insight into the many innovations, uh, that our customers are coming up with. Uh, criminals can steal thousands of dollars before a fraudulent transaction is detected. So the cost of, uh, to purchase a, your account data is well worth the price to fraudsters. Uh, according to Experian credit and debit card account information sells on the dark web for a mere $5 with the CVV number and up to $110. If it comes with all the bank information, including your name, social security number, date of birth, uh, complete account numbers and, and other personal data. >>Um, our customers have several key data and analytics challenges when it comes to fighting financial crime. The volume of data that they need to deal with is, is huge and growing exponentially. Uh, all this data needs to be evaluated in real time. Uh, there is, uh, there are new sources of, of streaming data that need to be integrated with existing, uh, legacy data sources. This includes, um, biometrics data and enhanced, uh, authentication, uh, video surveillance call center data. And of course all that needs to be integrated with existing legacy data sources. Um, there is an analytics arms race between the banks and the criminals and the criminal networks never stop innovating. They also we'll have to deal with, uh, disjointed security and governance, security and governance policies are often set per data source, uh, or application requiring redundant work, work across workloads. And, and they have to deal with siloed environments, um, the specialized nature of platforms and people results in disparate data sources and data management processes, uh, this duplicates efforts and, uh, divides the, the business risk and crime teams, limiting collaboration opportunities between CDP enhances financial crime solutions, uh, to be holistic by eliminating data gaps between siloed solutions with, uh, an enterprise data approach, uh, advanced, uh, data analytics and machine learning, uh, by deploying an enterprise wide data platform, you reduce siloed divisions between business risk and crime teams and enable better collaboration through industrialized machine learning. >>Uh, you tighten up the loop between, uh, detection and new fraud patterns. Cloudera provides the data platform on which a best of breed applications can run and leverage integrated machine learning cloud Derrick stands rather than replaces your existing fraud modeling applications. So Oracle SAS Actimize to, to name a few, uh, integrate with an enterprise data hub to scale the data increased speed and flexibility and improve efficacy of your entire fraud system. It also centralizes the fraud workload on data that can be used for other use cases in applications like enhanced KYC and a customer 360 4 example. >>I just, I wanted to highlight a couple of our partners in financial crime prevention, uh, semi dine, and Quintex, uh, uh, so send me nine provides fraud simulation using agent-based modeling, uh, machine learning techniques, uh, to generate synthetic transaction data. This data simulates potential fraud scenarios in a cost-effective, uh, GDPR compliant, virtual environment, significantly improved financial crime detection systems, semi dine identifies future fraud topologies, uh, from millions of, of simulations that can be used to dynamically train, uh, new machine learning algorithms for enhanced fraud identification and context, um, uh, connects the dots within your data, using dynamic entity resolution, and advanced network analytics to create context around your customers. Um, this enables you to see the bigger picture and automatically assesses potential criminal beads behavior. >>Now let's go some of our, uh, customers, uh, and how they're using cloud caldera. Uh, first we'll talk about, uh, United overseas bank, or you will be, um, you'll be, is a leading full service bank in, uh, in Asia. It, uh, with, uh, a network of more than 500 offices in, in 19 countries and territories in Asia, Pacific, Western Europe and north America UA, um, UOB built a modern data platform on Cloudera that gives it the flexibility and speed to develop new AI and machine learning solutions and to create a data-driven enterprise. Um, you'll be set up, uh, set up it's big data analytics center in 2017. Uh, it was Singapore's first centralized big data unit, uh, within a bank to deepen the bank's data analytic capabilities and to use data insights to enhance, uh, the banks, uh, uh, performance essential to this work was implementing a platform that could cost efficiently, bring together data from dozens of separate systems and incorporate a range of unstructured data, including, uh, voice and text, um, using Cloudera CDP and machine learning. >>UOB gained a richer understanding of its customer preferences, uh, to help make their, their banking experience simpler, safer, and more reliable. Working with Cloudera UOB has a big data platform that gives business staff and data scientists faster access to relevant and quality data for, for self-service analytics, machine learning and, uh, emerging artificial intelligence solutions. Um, with new self-service analytics and machine learning driven insights, you'll be, uh, has realized improvements in, in digital banking, asset management, compliance, AML, and more, uh, advanced AML detection capabilities, help analysts detect suspicious transactions either based on hidden relationships of shell companies and, uh, high risk individuals, uh, with, uh, Cloudera and machine learning, uh, technologies. You you'll be, uh, was able to enhance AML detection and reduce the time to identify new links from months 2, 3, 3 weeks. >>Excellent mass let's speak about MasterCard. So MasterCard's principle businesses to process payments between banks and merchants and the credit issuing banks and credit unions of the purchasers who use the MasterCard brand debit and credit cards to make purchases MasterCard chose Cloudera enterprise for fraud detection, and to optimize their DW infrastructure, delivering deepens insights and best practices in big data security and compliance. Uh, next let's speak about, uh, bank Rakka yet, uh, in Indonesia or Bri. Um, it, VRI is one of the largest and oldest banks in Indonesia and engages in the provision of general banking services. Uh, it's headquartered in Jakarta Indonesia. Uh, Bri is well known for its focus on financing initiatives and serves over 75 million customers through it's more than 11,000 offices and rural service outposts. Uh, Bri required better insight to understand customer activity and identify fraudulent transactions. Uh, the bank needed a solid foundation that allowed it to leverage the power of advanced analytics, artificial intelligence, and machine learning to gain better understanding of customers and the market. >>Uh, Bri used, uh, Cloudera enterprise data platform to build an agile and reliable, predictive augmented intelligence solution, uh, to enhance its credit scoring system and to address the rising concern around data security from regulators, uh, and customers, uh, Bri developed a real-time fraud detection service, uh, powered by Cloudera and Kafka. Uh, Bri's data scientists developed a machine learning model for fraud detection by creating a behavioral scoring model based on customer savings, uh, loan transactions, deposits, payroll and other financial, um, uh, real-time time data. Uh, this led to improvements in its fraud detection and credit scoring capabilities, as well as the development of a, of a new digital microfinancing product, uh, with the enablement of real-time fraud detection, VRI was able to reduce the rate of fraud by 40%. Uh, it improved, uh, relationship manager productivity by two and a half fold. Uh, it improved the credit score scoring system to cut down on micro-financing loan processing times from two weeks to two days to now two minutes. So fraud prevention is a good area to start with a data focus. If you haven't already, it offers a quick return on investment, uh, and it's a focused area. That's not too entrenched across the company, uh, to learn more about fraud prevention, uh, go to kroger.com and to schedule, and you should schedule a meeting with Cloudera, uh, to learn even more. Uh, and with that, thank you for listening and thank you for your time. >>Welcome to the customer. Obsession begins with data session. Uh, thank you for, for attending. Um, at Cloudera, we believe that a custom session begins with, uh, with, with data, um, and, uh, you know, financial services is Cloudera is largest industry vertical. We have approximately 425 global financial services customers, uh, which consists of 82 out of a hundred of the largest global banks of which we have 27 that are globally systemic banks, uh, four out of the five top stock exchanges, eight out of the 10 top wealth management firms and all four of the top credit card networks. Uh, so as you can see most financial services institutions utilize Cloudera for data analytics and machine learning. Uh, we also have over 20 central banks and it doesn't or so financial regulators. So it's an incredible footprint, which glimpse Cloudera, lots of insight into the many innovations that our customers are coming up with. >>Customers have grown more independent and demanding. Uh, they want the ability to perform many functions on their own and, uh, be able to do it. Uh, he do them on their mobile devices, uh, in a recent Accenture study, more than 50% of customers, uh, are focused on, uh, improving their customer experience through more personalized offers and advice. The study found that 75% of people are actually willing to share their data for better personalized offers and more efficient and intuitive services to get it better, better understanding of your customers, use all the data available to develop a complete view of your customer and, uh, and better serve them. Uh, this also breaks down, uh, costly silos, uh, shares data in, in accordance with privacy laws and assists with regulatory advice. It's so different organizations are going to be at different points in their data analytics and AI journey. >>Uh, there are several degrees of streaming and batch data, both structured and unstructured. Uh, you need a platform that can handle both, uh, with common, with a common governance layer, um, near real time. And, uh, real-time sources help make data more relevant. So if you look at this graphic, looking at it from left to right, uh, normal streaming and batch data comes from core banking and, uh, and lending operations data in pretty much a structured format as financial institutions start to evolve. Uh, they start to ingest near real-time streaming data that comes not only from customers, but also from, from newsfeeds for example, and they start to capture more behavioral data that they can use to evolve their models, uh, and customer experience. Uh, ultimately they start to ingest more real time streaming data, not only, um, standard, uh, sources like market and transaction data, but also alternative sources such as social media and connected sources, such as wearable devices, uh, giving them more, more data, better data, uh, to extract intelligence and drive personalized actions based on data in real time at the right time, um, and use machine learning and AI, uh, to drive anomaly detection and protect and predict, uh, present potential outcomes. >>So this is another way to look at it. Um, this slide shows the progression of the big data journey as it relates to a customer experience example, um, the dark blue represents, um, visibility or understanding your customer. So we have a data warehouse and are starting to develop some analytics, uh, to know your customer and start to provide a better customer 360 experience. Uh, the medium blue area, uh, is a customer centric or where we learn, uh, the customer's behavior. Uh, at this point we're improving our analytics, uh, gathering more customer centric information to perform, uh, some more exploratory, uh, data sciences. And we can start to do things like cross sell or upsell based on the customer's behavior, which should improve, uh, customer retention. The light blue area is, uh, is proactive customer inter interactions, or where we now have the ability, uh, to predict customers needs and wants and improve our interaction with the customer, uh, using applied machine learning and, and AI, uh, the Cloudera data platform, um, you know, business use cases require enabling, uh, the end-to-end journey, which we referred to as the data life cycle, uh, what the data life cycle, what is the data life cycle that our customers want, uh, to take their data through, to enable the end to end data journey. >>If you ask our customers, they want different types of analytics, uh, for their diverse user bases to help them implement their, their, their use cases while managed by a centralized security and governance later layer. Uh, in other words, um, the data life cycle to them provides multifunction analytics, uh, at each stage, uh, within the data journey, uh, that, uh, integrated and centralized, uh, security, uh, and governance, for example, uh, enterprise data consists of real time and transactional type type data. Examples include, uh, click stream data, web logs, um, machine generated, data chat bots, um, call center interactions, uh, transactions, uh, within legacy applications, market data, et cetera. We need to manage, uh, that data life cycle, uh, to provide real enterprise data insights, uh, for use cases around enhanced them, personalized customer experience, um, customer journey analytics next best action, uh, sentiment and churn analytics market, uh, campaign optimization, uh, mortgage, uh, processing optimization and so on. >>Um, we bring a diverse set of data then, um, and then enrich it with other data about our customers and products, uh, provide reports and dashboards such as customer 360 and use predictions from machine models to provide, uh, business decisions and, and offers of, uh, different products and services to customers and maintain customer satisfaction, um, by using, um, sentiment and churn analytics. These examples show that, um, the whole data life cycle is involved, um, and, uh, is in continuous fashion in order to meet these types of use cases, uh, using a single cohesive platform that can be, uh, that can be served by CDP, uh, the data, the Cloudera data platform. >>Okay. Uh, let's talk about, uh, some of the experiences, uh, from our customers. Uh, first we'll talk about Bunco suntan there. Um, is a major global bank headquartered in Spain, uh, with, uh, major operations and subsidiaries all over Europe and north and, and south America. Uh, one of its subsidiaries, something there UK wanted to revolutionize the customer experience with the use of real time data and, uh, in app analytics, uh, for mobile users, however, like many financial institutions send them there had a, he had a, had a large number of legacy data warehouses spread across many business use, and it's within consistent data and different ways of calculating the same metrics, uh, leading to different results. As a result, the company couldn't get the comprehensive customer insights it needed. And, uh, and business staff often worked on multiple versions of the truth. Sometime there worked with Cloudera to improve a single data platform that could support all its workloads, including self-service analytics, uh, operational analytics and data science processes, processing processing, 10 million transactions daily or 30,000 transactions per second at peak times. >>And, uh, bringing together really, uh, nearly two to two petabytes of data. The platform provides unprecedented, uh, customer insight and business value across the organization, uh, over 80 cents. And there has realized impressive, uh, benefits spanning, uh, new revenues, cost savings and risk reductions, including creating analytics for, for corporate customers with near real-time shopping behavior, um, and, and helping identify 7,000 new corporate, uh, customer prospects, uh, reducing capital expenditures by, uh, 3.2 million annually and decreasing operating expenses by, uh, 650,000, um, enabling marketing to realize, uh, 2.4 million in annual savings on, on cash, on commercial transactions, um, and protecting 3.7 million customers from financial crime impacts through 95, new proactive control alerts, improving risk and capital calculations to reduce the amount of money. It must set aside, uh, as part of a, as part of risk mandates. Uh, for example, in one instance, the risk team was able to release a $5.2 million that it had withheld for non-performing credit card loans by properly identifying healthy accounts miscategorized as high risk next, uh, let's uh, talk about, uh, Rabobank. >>Um, Rabobank is one of the largest banks in the Netherlands, uh, with approximately 8.3 million customers. Uh, it was founded by farmers in the late 19th century and specializes in agricultural financing and sustainability oriented banking, uh, in order to help its customers become more self-sufficient and, uh, improve their financial situations such as debt settlement, uh, rebel bank needed to access, uh, to a varied mix of high quality, accurate, and timely customer data, the talent, uh, to provide this insight, however, was the ability to execute sophisticated and timely data analytics at scale Rabobank was also faced with the challenge of, uh, shortening time to market. Uh, it needed easier access to customer data sets to ensure that they were using and receiving the right financial support at the right time with, with, uh, data quality and speed of processing. Um, highlighted as two vital areas of improvement, Rabobank was looking to incorporate, um, or create new data in an environment that would not only allow the organization to create a centralized repository of high quality data, but also allow them to stream and, uh, conduct data analytics on the fly, uh, to create actionable insights and deliver a strong customer experience bank level Cloudera due to its ability to cope with heavy pressures on data processing and its capability of ingesting large quantities of real time streaming data. >>They were able to quickly create a new data lake that allowed for faster queries of both historical and real time data to analyze customer loan repayment patterns, uh, to up to the minute transaction records, um, Robert bank and, and its customers could now immediately access, uh, the valuable data needed to help them understand, um, the status of their financial situation in this enabled, uh, rebel bank to spot financial disasters before they happened, enabling them to gain deep and timely insights into which customers were at risk of defaulting on loans. Um, having established the foundation of a modern data architecture Rabobank is now able to run sophisticated machine learning algorithms and, uh, financial models, uh, to help customers manage, um, financial, uh, obligations, um, including, uh, long repayments and are able to generate accurate, uh, current real liquidity. I refuse, uh, next, uh, let's uh, speak about, um, uh, OVO. >>Uh, so OVO is the leading digital payment rewards and financial services platform in Indonesia, and is present in 115 million devices across the company across the country. Excuse me. Um, as the volume of, of products within Obos ecosystem increases, the ability to ensure marketing effectiveness is critical to avoid unnecessary waste of time and resources, unlike competitors, uh, banks, w which use traditional mass marketing, uh, to reach customers over, oh, decided to embark on a, on a bold new approach to connect with customers via, uh, ultra personalized marketing, uh, using the Cloudera stack. The team at OVO were able to implement a change point detection algorithm, uh, to discover customer life stage changes. This allowed OVO, uh, to, uh, build a segmentation model of one, uh, the contextual offer engine Bill's recommendation algorithms on top of the product, uh, including collaborative and context-based filters, uh, to detect changes in consumer consumption patterns. >>As a result, OVO has achieved a 15% increase in revenue, thanks to this, to this project, um, significant time savings through automation and eliminating the chance of human error and have reduced engineers workloads by, by 30%. Uh, next let's talk about, uh, bank Bri, uh, bank Bri is one of the largest and oldest, uh, banks in Indonesia, um, engaging in, in general banking services, uh, for its customers. Uh, they are headquartered in, in Jakarta Indonesia, uh, PR is a well-known, uh, for its, uh, focused on micro-financing initiative initiatives and serves over 75 million customers through more than 11,000 offices and rural outposts, um, Bri needed to gain better understanding of their customers and market, uh, to improve the efficiency of its operations, uh, reduce losses from non-performing loans and address the rising concern around data security from regulators and consumers, uh, through enhanced fraud detection. This would require the ability to analyze the vast amounts of, uh, historical financial data and use those insights, uh, to enhance operations and, uh, deliver better service. >>Um, Bri used Cloudera's enterprise data platform to build an agile and reliable, uh, predictive augmented intelligence solution. Uh, Bri was now able to analyze 124 years worth of historical financial data and use those insights to enhance its operations and deliver better services. Um, they were able to, uh, enhance their credit scoring system, um, the solution analyzes customer transaction data, and predicts the probability of a customer defaulting on, on payments. Um, the following month, it also alerts Bri's loan officers, um, to at-risk customers, prompting them to take the necessary action to reduce the likelihood of the net profit lost, uh, this resulted in improved credit, improved credit scoring system, uh, that cut down the approval of micro financing loans, uh, from two weeks to two days to, to two minutes and, uh, enhanced fraud detection. >>All right. Uh, this example shows a tabular representation, uh, the evolution of a customer retention use case, um, the evolution of data and analytics, uh, journey that, uh, that for that use case, uh, from aware, uh, text flirtation, uh, to optimization, to being transformative, uh, with every level, uh, data sources increase. And, uh, for the most part, uh, are, are less, less standard, more dynamic and less structured, but always adding more value, more insights into the customer, uh, allowing us to continuously improve our analytics, increase the velocity of the data we ingest, uh, from, from batch, uh, to, uh, near real time, uh, to real-time streaming, uh, the volume of data we ingest continually increases and we progress, uh, the value of the data on our customers, uh, is continuously improving, allowing us to interact more proactively and more efficiently. And, and with that, um, I would, uh, you know, ask you to consider and assess if you are using all the, uh, the data available to understand, uh, and service your customers, and to learn more about, about this, um, you know, visit cloudera.com and schedule a meeting with Cloudera to learn more. And with that, thank you for your time. And thank you for listening.

>>well, thank you adam. We're back here at the Q we're live at the feta in Barcelona and we're here in cloud city which is just amazing. I'm really excited to have two guests here from a company called data on tap. Angus axe Tina's is the founder and Ceo and Alex Baumann is also a co founder and C Xo again, data on tap guys, welcome to the cube. Thanks so much for coming on Angus. Let's start with you. Tell us about data on tap is a great name. >>Yeah, thank you for we are designing and building digital attacker brands. Built entirely in public wealth. >>What does that mean? Digital attacker brand. So tell us more about that. >>I I think uh when you want to launch now a new wireless service provider, you have this challenge. We were built from current infrastructure or build something as a green field operation. We think building something a new is provides these new opportunities. So that's that's what we are. >>You guys know when you start a company with a blank sheet of paper, it's an exciting time. Why did you start the company? >>A good question. I think, I think for me, I mean, you know, I'm sure we both had our own reasons, but the biggest one for me was being held back on delivering the types of customer experiences that people were expecting. So, uh, telecom um, is notoriously slow moving, deliver great products, but take time to get there and you see all kinds of over the top products kind of leapfrogging ahead and needing lunch of telecoms in some places and kind of being held back. Uh, in that kind of older, you know, the full sheet of paper really drove us to decide what can we do with the blank sheet. How do we go green field, you know, all this new cloud technology, what types of things does not unlock for us? And that's really the impetus for >>it. So what are you actually selling? What's the service or product that you're selling? >>We started in Canadian market. The Canadian market is may be considered undeserved in, you know, when you compare to other markets. And we started with this full and final concept building out from core network all the way to consumer application, um, including e commerce, including other kind of value added services from the get go. Even before we launched before we launch our wireless service proposition, it's very hard to get into Canadian market. We're still battling out with regulator on on that front, but we're building a tax tax for Canada and for other countries to uh, in the model of the Fintech, in the model of this new business model that's becoming available with public cloud. >>So, public policy is obviously a big part of this where you have to ride on top of the existing infrastructure at least get permission to do that. And that's kind of your business model, right? >>Yeah, exactly. Um the infrastructure exists um very good networks in Canada and I believe elsewhere in the world as well, but this is the age of service innovation. Public cloud kind of brings that service innovation to the front rather than, you know, differentiating on the network technologies, which is kind of commanded commoditize thing. The new way of thinking is about service innovation, about what can you build on existing infrastructure, How can you use elements in the public cloud, the new economy, new business models to create this new new business. >>So let's talk about cloud economics. Specifically public cloud. When we say cloud, we need public cloud. Yeah, not fake cloud. So you've got, you've got cloud, you've got you've got cross cloud, you know, kind of imagining this abstraction layer cutting across clouds are extending to the edge. You talk about the cloud suppliers, they look at the the the edge as this opportunity, they see data centers is just another edge node. So talk about how do you think about public cloud economics as it relates to your business and your custom? >>Sure. So um you know, going with that blank sheet of paper and building out and kind of the entire stack exactly from start to finish everything you need from four to customer to deliver a customer experience to deliver all the tools that are necessary to sell in a completely digital model. Um The economics for us, when you look at the public cloud, allow you to do a kind of a composite application approach of using the api economy, you can just pick exactly what you need from individual pieces that exist out in the market. Um, and typically cloud based products as well. And by building in that model, you can really narrow down a per subscriber economic as a carrier that's kind of wasn't feasible before, you know, and on top of that, that kind of Capex the time to market, all those things are so small compared to what used to have as long as you're building out in that. >>So is your strategy to enable service providers and carriers to move beyond connectivity? Is that, is that even is that feasible? Or is it an ecosystem that gets built around that? On top of that? >>Our vision is that, and this is difficult. A lot of subscription based verticals. You, you need the subscriber but you need to know them on a 1 to 1 basis. You need that person, not just building account number. Uh And then once you've got that and you've got your core business around them, it is about all the other things that you can build a kind of an ecosystem around that customer. So it could be enabling um other verticals within the teletext act. It could just be about making sure that they have kind of our first approaches. You need to be digital, you need to have a digital experience, it needs to be good, needs to be premium, it can't just be a digitization, like the clipboard on the ipad, it needs to be a real rethought Greenfield experience to be competitive in >>the future. Because when you think about the brands and the pandemic, we're all watching movies and viewing on demand. The experience that we have with those services is awesome. Absolutely. The sales, the marketing and service all integrated into one. And you think about the experience that you have with traditional telcos and it's just frustration and so so you're, you're enhancing that experience. That's what it's all about, that user >>experience. Yeah. If you, if you go into our app in Canada right now and go into a marketplace stab you, you would kind of feel like netflix a bit because you know, uh, the subscription plans are just part of the range of products you can be buying from us and it truly depends on the customer segment and type and then on the particular customer, what we would bring up front for them to to consume. You know, if it's a youth customer student or perhaps a new Canadian or new immigrants to a certain place, they might need the banking product and we might have appreciate Mastercard or Visa available for them to to order together with decent is incurred. Or they might, if a university student, they might be buying certain clothing products or or other things from around for that university or or so on. Support. The customization is endless and personalization could be really truly personal and uh machine learned and and so on and so forth. >>And if I could, the most people don't describe themselves in terms of gigabytes, they have other things that they like and other things that make them who they are and being able to to understand who somebody is and deliver things outside of just like here is a plan with gigabytes were here a minute is really the next step. You know, you need to be able to put something other than one GB on a poster. >>It's interesting you say that Alex because you're right, we don't think there's consumers, we don't think in terms of gigabytes, but underneath all this is data, it's all about the data. And when I think about industries that are data intensive like telco financial services is another example. These organizations build data products and the time it takes for them to build data products is too long. The the user experience is oftentimes too cumbersome. And I think I think there's a new metric that's going to emerge in the industry is how long is a business person does it take me to go from idea to monetization as I mean a new industry Kpi you heard it here first in the queue because it's all about building data products in the in the digital world. And so when I think about what you're doing, if I understand it correctly, you're allowing the digital service providers first of all become digital and then build data products very quickly. Configure them very quickly and offer them to their consumers. >>Yeah, I like that idea um idea to monetization I think shortening that time is really important, but it goes beyond just like configuring a data product. Um It's anything that you could pull together within your own ecosystem or combinations of ecosystems or bundles of things. Um You know, as a marketer. Uh That idea comes to you and you want to test it, it's you know, it's idea to test the monetization to monetization. Um So you know, if you can rapidly test things iterate on them uh from an interface that happens in real time and you've got customers that are the data model and the construct around them is customer centric. So your marketing can be customer centric, um That's really the world we're building. >>What's the ecosystem, look how you envisioning and thinking about the ecosystem evolution? >>Well, starting point was obviously look at the retail store and look what's in the store and kind of have all of that as as a starting point, so you have that covered. But you can go you can go outside and and and see who else is selling what to add. Mobile consumer of yours. And trust me, all those ecosystem partners are eager to get in this digital kind of platform because they want they want that access to the consumer and they want a targeted access to that consumer and looking at whatever perhaps opportunities and and values exist outside of it. People pass down the phones to their kids and their senior members of the family. We try to sell their use phones. Um We we we started um monetizing or started developing systems that allow members to sell to members, something that, you know, is maybe part of a different marketplaces. But if you can get that process going and you can be a trusted party that handles these things. That's a really exciting opportunity for certain segments specifically. >>Well, that's the thing. The cloud enables, you can create these marketplaces and you can build your own ecosystems and that's sort of the next phase, last 10 years, we're going to be different than the next 10 years of cloud. And one of the big differences is the pace at which you can develop these ecosystems. I mentioned, uh, financial services, is that, uh, an industry segment? That's right for this wireless transformation. Are there other segments that you guys are looking? >>I think uh Fintech is maybe a good example of what telecom should be, uh, not necessarily mirroring, but at least looking to for inspiration because they've kind of dropped a little bit in terms of being open, opening up architecture, allowing that kind of service level innovation. Um so, you know, one thing is to create some digital transformation or digital green field operation for a network operator, um but kind of the next step is allowing other types of experimentation on top of what you've built. And kind of, Fintech is a good model for that. The cloud absolutely enables it. Um I mean, you know, up until cloud, I don't think we could have a conversation about, you know, a carrier opening up for other people to experiment and their platforms are on their systems, but the cloud really does allow for that. And I think uh you know, smaller groups of very capable minds will come up with things that we can't even dream up right now. Uh and that's the kind of stuff that you want to have happening first on your network and be enabling it and then pull it in and pull those minds into into your teams like attracting talent that can deliver the things we're talking about is also going to be important. >>We talked about in the cube data about the economy all the time and no we can talk about opening up the telcos and it scares people a lot. You know can we replicate the reliability of the network with open A PS and open no rand open systems. But are there examples of sort of open api is the ap economy in this digital service provider world? Oh >>um I think there are I think uh you know if you come from I. P. Void ecosystem there are a lot more open um uh and networks should be in a in a similar place. I think it provides opportunities in short tech. Is there security, home security iot everything can have come to play when you think about it, when when you have an app on each each of your consumers phone we have I think endless opportunities you have to be provide certain stickiness. You have to provide certain engagement. Why would people come back to you um Gamification loyalty? Um other things can come to play uh to provide this wholesome experience on why people would come back to you, not just for you know, service things >>I saw in some of your material private by design. What what is that? >>I think so it's it's a bit of a mindset in the strategy when you're when you're developing everything in your platform um as a as a telecommunications provider, you collect like an absurd amount of information about people, particularly if you are detected in the way that you know, whoever one of those people is. Um, and there's a little bit of a need to respect some of that data, respect some of the privacy that maybe around that um, and building within the cloud and constructing new data models around how that data is, is uh, stored, what things exist in a wallet, what traceability happens, inaudible bility happens on that data is really important. As you consider the future. We're already seeing lots of regulation around privacy and data and data processing. Um, so you can't like build now and think, oh whatever, we'll change it later. You a little bit forward thinking is very important for, for that type of >>Yeah. And I think starting point is important of how easy is it to get in and start of telecom telecommunications provider, you'll see during MWc and have evidence people are trying to re engineer the onboarding experiences. Um, I think that first step has to be very, very easy for users to take uh and uh, getting into ecosystem, so just email, good to go just as any other app and, and that's, and that's a starting point, and then the rest of it is sort of on demand when needed. Uh that's, you know, with the value you grow. So telecoms usually try to run the credit check before you even, you know, before you even know the name. >>Hey guys, we got to leave it there. Thanks so much, congratulations on getting off the ground adam. It's buzzing here, back to you.

>>From around the globe. It's the cube with digital coverage of IBM. Think 20, 21 brought to you by IBM, >>Welcome back to IBM. Think at 2021, the virtual edition, my name is Dave Volante and you're watching the cubes continuous coverage of think 21. And right now we're going to talk about banking and the post isolation economy. I'm very pleased to welcome our next guests. Look at Wigley's the general manager global banking financial markets at IBM and John diagonal is the global CTO and vice president and distinguished engineer for banking and financial services. Gentlemen, welcome to the cube. That's my pleasure. Look at this current economic upheaval, it's quite a bit different from the last one. Isn't it? I mean, liquidity doesn't seem to be a problem for most banks these days. I mean, if anything, they're releasing loan loss reserves that they didn't need. What's from your perspective, what's the state of banking today and hopefully as we exit this pandemic soon. Okay. >>So, so Dave, I think, like you say, it's a, it's a, it's a state in a picture that, uh, in a significantly different from what people were expecting. And I, and I think some way, in some ways you're seeing the benefits of a number of the regulations that were put into, into place after the, you know, the financial crisis last time round, right? And therefore this time, you know, a health crisis did not become a financial crisis because I think the banks were in better shape. And also, you know, governments clearly have put worldwide a lot of liquidity into the, into the system. Um, I think if you look at it though, um, maybe two or three things ready to call out, firstly, there's a, there's a massive regional variation. So if you look at the U S banking industry, uh, it's extremely buoyant and I'll come back to that in a managing the way in which it's performing. >>Uh, you know, the banks that are starting to report that first quarter results are going to show a profitability that's significantly ahead of where they were last year. And probably some of those, some of that best performance for quite a long time, if you go into Europe, it's a completely different picture. I think the banks are extremely challenged at that. And I think you're going to see a much Bleaker outlook in terms of what those banks report, as far as Asia Pacific is concerned again, you know, because they did, they have come out of the pandemic much faster that consumer businesses back into growth. Again, I think they're showing some pretty buoyant up performance as far as, as far as banking performance is concerned. I think the beast that's particularly interesting. And I think Kim is a bit of a surprise to most, uh, is, is what we've seen in the U S right? >>And in the U S what's actually happened is, uh, the investment banking side of banking businesses has been doing better than they've ever done before. There's been the most unbelievable amount of acquisition activity. You've seen a lot of what's going on with the specs that's driving the res you know, deal based fee income for the banks, the volatility in the marketplace, meaning that trading income is much, much higher than it's ever been. And therefore the banks are very much seeing a profitability on that investment banking side. That was way ahead of what I think they were, they were expecting. Consumer business is definitely down. If you look at the credit card business, it's down, if you look at, uh, you know, lending activity, that's going down, going out, it's substantially less than where it was before. There's hardly any lending growth because the economy is flat at this moment in time. >>But again, the good news that, and I think this is a worldwide, but you're not just in the us. The good news here is that because of the liquidity and some of them are special mentions that government put out that there has not been, uh, the, the level of bankruptcies that people were expecting. Right. And that for most of the provisioning that the banks did, um, in expectation of non-performing loans has been, I think, a much more, much greater than what they're going to need, which is why you're starting to supervision is being released as well, which I kind of flattering, flattering the income flattering. I think going forward though, you're going to see a different picture. >>It's the, thank you for the clarification on the regional divergence is that you're right on, I mean, European central banks are, are not the same, the same position, uh, to, to affect liquidity, but is that nuance, is that variation across the globe? Is that, uh, is that a blind spot? Is that a, is that a, a concern, uh, or the other, other greater concerns, you know, inflation and, and, and the, the, the pace of the, the return to the economy. What are your thoughts on that? >>So I think, I think the, um, the, the, the concern, um, you know, as far as the European marketplace is concerned is, um, you know, whether the, the performance that in particularly, I don't think the level of Verition in there was quite as generous as we saw in other parts of the world. And therefore, um, you know, ease the issue around non-performing loans in, in Europe going to hold the European, uh, European banks back. And are they going to, you know, therefore constrained them under lending that they put into the economy. And that then, um, you know, reduces the level of economic growth that we see in Europe. Right. I think, I think that is certainly that is certainly a concern. Um, I would be surprised and I've been looking at, you know, forecasts that have been brought forward by various people around the world around infection. >>I would be surprised if inflation starts to become a genuine problem in the, in the kind of short to medium term. I think in the industry that are going to be two or three other things that are probably going to be more, you know, going to be more issues. Right. I think the first one, which is becoming top of mind for chief executives is this whole area around operational resiliency. So, you know, regulators universally are making very, very sure that banks do not have a technical debt or a complexity of legacy systems issue. They are. And, you know, the UK has taken the lead on this and they are going so far as even requiring non-executive directors to be liable. If banks are found to not have the right policies in place, this is not being followed by other regulators around the world. Right. So, so that is very much top of mind at this moment in time. >>So I think discretionary investment is going to be, uh, you know, to watch, um, uh, solving that particular problem. I think that that's one issue. I think the other issue is what the pandemic has shown is that, and, and, and this was very evident to me. I mean, I spent the last three years out in Singapore where, you know, banks have become very digital businesses. Right. When I came into the U S in my current role, it was somewhat surprising to me as to where the U S marketplace was in terms of digitization of banking. But if you look in the last 12 months, uh, you know, I think more has been achieved in terms of banks becoming digital businesses. And they've probably done in the last two or three years. Right. And then the real acceleration of that, uh, digitalization, which is going to continue to happen. But the downside of that has been that the threat to the banking industry from essentially fintechs and big decks has exactly, you know, it's really accelerated. Right, right. I mean, just to give you an example, pay Pat is the second largest financial services institution in the us, right. So that's become a real problem of my English. The banking industry is going to have to deal with, >>I want to come back to that, but now let's bring John into the conversation. Let's talk about the tech stack. Look, it was talking about whether it was resiliency going digital. We certainly saw with the pandemic remote work, huge, huge volumes of things like PPP and, and, and, and, and mortgages and with dropping rates, et cetera. So, John, how has the tech stack been altered in the past 14 months? >>Great question, Dave and it's top of mind for almost every single financial services firm, regardless of the sector within the overall industry, every single business has been taking stock of how they handled the pandemic and the economic conditions thereafter, and all of the business needs that were driven by the pandemic. In so many situations, firms were unable to service their clients or were not competitive in serving their clients. And as a result, they've had to do very deep, uh, uh, architectural, uh, transformation and digital transformation around their core platforms, their systems of analytics and their systems, their front end systems of engagement in terms of, uh, the core processing systems that many of these institutions, some in many cases, they're 50 years old. And with any 50 year old application platform, there are inherent limitations as an inflexibility and flexibility as an inability to innovate for the future as a speed of delivery issue. In, in other words, it can be very hard to accelerate delivery of new capabilities onto an aging platform. And so in every single case, um, institutions are looking to hybrid cloud and public cloud technology, and pre-packaged AI and pre-packaged solutions from an ISV ecosystem of software vendor ecosystem to say, as long as we can crack open many of these old monolithic cores and surround them with new digitization, new user experience that spans every channel and automation from the front to back of every interaction, that's where most institutions are prioritizing. Yep. >>Banks, aren't gonna migrate. Uh, they're gonna, they're going to build a abstraction layer. I want to come back to the disruption is so interesting. You had the Coinbase IPO last month, see Tesla and micro strategy. They're putting Bitcoin on their balance sheets. Jamie diamond says traditional banks are playing a smaller role in the financial system because of the new fintechs. Look at, you mentioned PayPal, the Stripe does Robin hood. You get the Silicon Valley giants have this dual disruptive disruption agenda, Apple, Amazon, even Walmart, Facebook. The question is, are traditional banks going to lose control of the payment systems? >>Yeah, I mean, I think to a large extent that is, that is already happened, right? Because I think if you look at, if you look at the experience in Asia, right, and you look at particularly organizations like iron financial, uh, you know, in India, you look at organizations like ATM the, you know, very substantial trends, particularly on the consumer payment side has actually moved, uh, away from the banks. And I think you're starting to see that in the West as well, right. With organizations like, you know, cloud. Now that's coming out with this, um, you know, pay, you know, buying out the later type of schemes. You've got and then, so you've got PayPal. And as you said, Stripe, uh, and, and others as well, but it's not just, um, you know, in the payment side. Right. I think, I think what's starting to happen is that, that are very core part of the banking business, you know, especially things like lending, for instance, where again, you are getting a number of these, um, fintechs and big, big tech companies entering the marketplace. >>And I, and I think the threat for the banks is, and this is not going to be small chunks of market share that you're going to actually lose. Right. It's, it's, it's actually, uh, it could actually be a Kodak moment. Let me give you an example. Uh, you know, you will have just seen that grab is going to be acquired by one of these facts for about $40 billion. I mean, this organization started like the Uber in Singapore. It very rapidly got into both the payment side, right? So it actually went to all of these mom and pop shops and it offered QR based, um, go out code based payment capabilities to these very small retailers. They were charging about half or a third of what MasterCard or visa were charging to run those payment routes. They took market share overnight. You look at the remittance business, right? >>They, they went into the remittance business, they set up these wallets in 28 countries around the ICR and region. They took huge chunks of business completely away from DBS, which is the local bank out there from Western union and all of these, all of these others. So, so I, I think it's a real threat. I think Jamie Dimon is saying what the banking industry has said always, right? Which is the reason we are losing is because the playing field is not even, this is not about playing fields and even right. All of these businesses have been subject to exactly the same regulation that the bank shop subject to regulations in Singapore and India, more onerous than maybe in other parts of the world. This is around the banking business, recognizing that this is a threat. And exactly, as John was saying, you got to get to delivering the customer experience. >>That juniors are wanting at the level of pasta they're prepared to pay. And you're not going to do that by purely shorting out the channels and having a cool app on somebody's smartphone. Right? If that smartphone is 48 by arcade processes and legacy systems, where can I apply? You know, like, like today, you know, you make a payment, your payment does not clear for five days, right? Whereas in Singapore I make a payment, the payment is instantaneously cleared, right? That's where the banking system is going to have to get to in order to get to that. You need to order the whole stack. And the really good news is there are many examples where this has been done very successfully by incumbent banks. You don't have to set up a digital bank on the side to do it. An incumbent bank could do it, and it can do it in a sense of a period of time, or does sense for level of investment. A lot of IBM's business across our consulting, as well as our, our technology stack is very much trying to do that with our clients. So I am personally very bullish about what the industry >>Yeah. I mean, taking friction out of the system sometimes with the case of crypto taking the middle person out of the system. But I think you guys are savvy. You understand that, you know, like, yeah, Jamie diamonds a couple of years ago said, he'd fire anybody doing crypto Janet Yellen and says, ah, I don't really get it. You know, Warren buffet. But I think as technology people, we look at it and say, okay, wait a minute. This is an interesting Petri dish. There's, there's fundamental technology here that has massive funding that is going to inform, you know, the future. I think, you know, big bags are gonna lean in some of them and others, others. Won't, uh, John, give you the last word here, >>But for sure they're leaning in. Uh, so to just, to, to, to think about, uh, uh, something that Likud said a moment ago, the reason these startups were able to innovate fast was because they didn't have the legacy. They didn't have the spaghetti lying around. They were able to be relentlessly laser focused on building new, using the API ecosystem, going straight to public and hybrid cloud and not worrying about everything that had been built for the last 50 years or so. The benefit for existing institutions, the incumbents is that they can use all of the same techniques and tools and hybrid cloud accelerators in terms. And we're not just thinking about, um, uh, retail banking here, your question around the industry, that disruption from Bitcoin, blockchain technologies, new ways of processing securities. It is playing out in every single securities processing and capital markets organization. Right now I'm working with several organizations right now, exactly on how to build custody systems, to take advantage of these non fungible digital assets. It's a hot, hot topic around which there's, uh, incredible, uh, appetite to invest an incredible appetite to innovate. And we know that the center of all these technologies are going to be cloud forward cloud ready, AI infused data infuse technologies. >>So I want to have you back. I wish you had more time. I want to talk about specs. I want to talk about NFTs. I want to talk about technology behind all this really great conversation and really appreciate your time. I'm sorry. We got to go. >>Thank you. Thanks so much indeed, for having us. >>Oh, really? Pleasure. Was mine. Thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Volante for IBM. Think 2021. You're watching the cube.

>> From around the globe, it's the Cube! With digital coverage of IBM Think 2021, brought to you by IBM. >> Well, welcome back to the Cube and our IBM Think initiative and today a fascinating subject with a dramatic shift that's going on in the Middle East and specifically in the kingdom of Saudi Arabia. There is a significant partnership that has just recently been launched called SARIE, which is the Saudi Arabian real interbank express. And it basically is a, a dramatic move to make the kingdom cashless - and IBM is very much at the center of that. With me to talk about that role is Elhadji Cisse who at IBM is the MEA head of payments which of course is middle East and Africa. Elhadji, good to have you with us all the way from Dubai. Good to see you today. >> The pleasure's all mine. >> Good. Well, thank you for joining us. And let's, let's talk about this initiative. First off, the problem or at least the challenge that IBM and its partners are trying to solve and now how you're going about it. So let's just paint that 30,000 foot level, if you will, then we'll dive in a little deeper. >> All right. So if you look at the countries, the kingdom of Saudi Arabia, and in much of the region, Middle East and Africa, we have very cash driven society. And this provides lots of challenges in terms of government point of view, businesses' point of view. And even the consumer point of view. The cash transaction is becoming less and less traceable. You are less likely to see where the cash is going, where the cash is coming from. Maintaining the cash also is becoming more and more expensive in terms of security, in terms of recycling the cash, holding the cash, transacting the cash, all of that has to be taken into consideration. And the kingdom of Saudi Arabia, with the help of the crown Prince Mohammad bin Salman, has a visionary vision 2030 to be put in place that will enable them to revolutionize the entire financial sector. There's a segment within that called the FSDB, the financial sector development program. And that program, within that program, they have a goal to develop a digital platform that will enhance and enable the society to go to a more cashless society and also help define a full end to end digital environment for the, for the kingdom. >> So when you think about the scale of this, I mean it's almost mindblowing in a way, because in many cases we've been talking about with various of your colleagues at IBM, different initiatives that involve an organization or involve maybe a more regional partnership or something like that. This is national, right? This is every banking institution in the kingdom of Saudi Arabia. Businesses, government entities. I mean, if you would, share with me some of the complexity of this in terms of a project of that scale and, and trying to bring together these disparate systems that all have a different kind of legacy overhang, if you will, right. And now you're trying to modernize everybody moving towards the same goal in 2030, I think it's mind blowing. >> Yeah, it is. It is, John. And if you look at the complexity, if I may speak a little bit about how complex it is, let's start with the team. The team has been a full diverse team. We have 10 different nationalities. We have team from America, Canada, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, UAE, China, UK, Pakistan, India. I mean, you name it. We have the whole globe pretty much. Every single region, Australia also was there. We had the team of that magnitude. In addition to that, as you rightfully stated, we're not building a system for a particular company or particular industry. It is for the entire country, all the banks of Saudi Arabia: the 11 national banks and the 12 additional international banks that are there. The global corporates, such as the Telco corporation, the oil corporation that are there. All of them needs to be onboarded into this including the 17 million or 20 some million population that are there. Now, the keys to this that we have is that our partners, MasterCard and Saudi payments, we have mandated ourself not to divide ourselves into three teams. We have to go with this as one single team. This was the motto of the project. This is what made us successful. We didn't differentiate between IBM, MasterCard, or Saudi payment. We all went together and addressed every single challenge as a team with the three different layers. And that's what helped us become successful with this engagement. >> So let's look at the initiatives specifically then in terms of the technology that's driving this. We talk a lot about the digital transformation that's occurring in the world. And again, it's kind of a catch all phrase, but this truly is a almost a magical transformation that you're going through. So how did you address the various workloads, what's going to be done where and how, and by whom. And then this integration that has to go on with that, not only are you centralizing a lot of these functions but you also have to distribute them to institutions across the kingdom. So if you would share a little bit of insight on that. >> Yeah. So if you look, if you look at the architecture that we have put in place, it's really a very agile and flexible architecture in a way that we have put in a central entity, which is the payment hub that is, that will handle all the payments solution that is there. And we put the flexibility for all the consumers because we have different banks. If you look at the banks industry, we have banks that are very mature, banks that have a medium level of maturity, and some that are absolutely not mature at all. And with this solution that we have to get involved, we have to be Azure 222 enabled, which is the new language that we will be using. Now, the infrastructure that we put in place have enabled that flexibility, otherwise we will never going to be successful. You cannot come to a country and say everybody needs to be onboarded into this language. Everybody needs to be operating this way. No, that will never going to work. We have taken that into consideration from the beginning. We knew this would be a challenge and we put different tools within IBM that we have put in place in order to go to mitigate those, such as the WTX, which is the Webster transformation exchanger that enables us to transform messages from and to Azure 222 or to Azure 222 or to any type of format that the customer have, any of the customer would be the banks. So we encapsulate that. Another challenge that we have is on the on boarding aspect. A lot of banks, again depending on their maturity level, we have to be ready with different environment for them to be, to catch up with us. Not everybody will be able to onboard on the same time. So by leveraging our RTVS solution, the rational testable service virtualization, it enables us to mitigate, to virtualize an entire ecosystem, make it look like it is a physical environment for the banks to use as a test as opposed to in the normal circumstances, purchasing additional hardware additional software, additional components and doing that, we're just virtualizing it for those who are ready for a system testing, those who are ready for a performance test, those who're ready for any type of non-functional requirements testing aspect. So these tools and this mechanism have helped us with our complex system integration methodology to mitigate this complexity and make it easy for the ecosystem to be onboarded and make us successful in this deal. >> And you raised a really interesting point in terms of the maturity of different levels of technology within the banking institutions there. You've got, you know, I'm sure, as you pointed out, some very small enterprises, right? Very small towns, very small institutions whose systems might not be as sophisticated or as mature, basically. So ultimately, how do you tie all that in together so that there might be a very large institution that has a very robust set of infrastructure and processes in place. And then you've got it communicating with a very small institution. You've got to be a great translator, right? I mean, IBM does here. Because you don't have them sometimes basically talking the same language, literally in this case. >> Yes, absolutely. And this is really our forte. We are the system integrators of choice in this region. And this goes without saying, because of our platform and our processes and our people that we put together. If you look at this, this example again, on the integration layer, we've enabled two lines of communication, two channels for the community. They could either go for API if they are very mature or they could go to MQ which is a low level of, I won't say a low level, but a very old fashioned way of communicating. On that aspect, they not only they have two protocols to get to us, they can use any message format that they want as long as we agree and we have an end check on the language that they're going to be using. And this integration layer or the system of integration that we have built that enables us to add that flexibility on both entities. >> So this was just launched. I mean literally just launched. What's your timeline in order to have full or I guess, reasonable implementation. >> That's a great question. Actually, the average is 24 to 30 months. We have broken the world record. We have implemented this magnificent solution within 18 months. It's actually a 17 month and a half of implementation. With the scope that we have, that is onboarding all the banks, having deferred net settlement, having the Azure 222, billing solution on it. We had the, we had the billing we had the dispute management, we had the single proxies. We have the debit cap and limit management and the portal solution. So we have all of these component within 17 and a half month. This breaks the world record of implementing an instant payment solution globally. >> We'll call Guinness and get you in the book then. It is a remarkable achievement. It really is. And you know, and you've talked about some of the the values here in terms of reduced transaction costs. Greater stability, greater security, greater transactional relationships, I imagine market liquidity, right? In your thought, I mean, tie all that together for our viewers in terms of impact and what you think this kind of partnership is going to create in terms of changing the way basically financial services are delivered in the kingdom. >> So it will change a lot. And the impact in the economy, like I said this is going to be on a three-fold. One, from a consumer point of view, you'll be able to save time in making your transactions. You will be able to trace your transactions and be able to have enough data to understand how you're managing your budget in your annual transaction. From a business point of view, you will be able to save yourself from theft. I mean, again, having cash in your business, it will tend to having more people coming in and stealing them from you either your employees or your customers or anybody else. But having a cashless business nobody can literally steal your money. They can only steal your phone or steal your gadget that you have for that aspect. Managing and maintaining cash also is a big problem. Now from a government point of view, this is where it gets very interesting, especially for Saudi Arabia, the taxation of the employees or the payment of it, the trustability of all of that and being able to trace it and being able to say, okay how much tax you will need to pay by end of the year without you doing the calculation. That information was already provided to the government. And as a central bank, the printing of cash, maintaining cash, storing cash, securing cash all of those costs will be going away. This is why the country wanted to go into a cashless society. >> Well, it's a fascinating endeavor. And certainly congratulations on that front. We're talking about real time payments and really making a significant difference in in how services are delivered in the kingdom and Elhadji, I certainly have appreciated your time here today and talking about it and and wish you all the best down the road. Thank you very much. >> Thank you very much, John. I appreciate it. >> All right. So we're talking about the journey to a cashless society in the kingdom of Saudi Arabia and what Elhadji is doing and what IBM is doing to make that happen. I'm John Wallace and thanks for joining us here on the Cube!

from the cube studios in palo alto in boston bringing you data-driven insights from the cube and etr this is breaking analysis with dave vellante the pandemic not only accelerated the shift to digital but also highlighted a rush of cyber criminal sophistication collaboration and chaotic responses by virtually every major company in the planet the solar winds hack exposed supply chain weaknesses and so-called island hopping techniques that are exceedingly difficult to detect moreover the will and aggressiveness of well-organized cyber criminals has elevated to the point where incident responses are now met with counterattacks designed to both punish and extract money from victims via ransomware and other criminal activities the only upshot is the cyber security market remains one of the most enduring and attractive investment sectors for those that can figure out where the market is headed and which firms are best positioned to capitalize hello everyone and welcome to this week's wikibon cube insights powered by etr in this breaking analysis we'll provide our quarterly update of the security industry and share new survey data from etr and thecube community that will help you navigate through the maze of corporate cyber warfare we'll also share our thoughts on the game of 3d chest that octa ceo todd mckinnon is playing against the market now we all know this market is complicated fragmented and fast moving and this next chart says it all it's an interactive graphic from optiv a denver colorado based si that's focused on cyber security they've done some really excellent research and put together this awesome taxonomy and mapped vendor names therein and this helps users navigate the complex security landscape and there are over a dozen major sectors high-level sectors within the security taxonomy in nearly 60 sub-sectors from monitoring vulnerability assessment identity asset management firewalls automation cloud data center sim threat detection and intelligent endpoint network and so on and so on and so on but this is a terrific resource and can help you understand where players fit and help you connect the dots in the space now let's talk about what's going on in the market the dynamics in this crazy mess of a landscape are really confusing sometimes now since the beginning of cyber time we've talked about the increasing sophistication of the adversary and the back and forth escalation between good and evil and unfortunately this trend is unlikely to stop here's some data from carbon black's annual modern bank heist report this is the fourth and of course now vmware's brand highlights the carbon black study since the acquisition and it catalyzed the creation of vmware's cloud security division destructive malware attacks according to the recent study are up 118 percent from last year now one major takeaway from the report is that hackers aren't just conducting wire fraud they are 57 of the bank surveyed saw an increase in wire fraud but the cyber criminals are also targeting non-public information such as future trading strategies this allows the bad guys to front run large block trades and profit it's become very lucrative practice now the prevalence of so-called island hopping is up 38 from already elevated levels this is where a virus enters a company's supply chain via a partner and then often connects with other stealthy malware downstream these techniques are more common where the malware will actually self-form with other infected parts of the supply chain and create actions with different signatures designed to identify and exfiltrate valuable information it's a really complex problem of major concern is that 63 of banking respondents in the study reported that responses to incidents were then met with retaliation designed to intimidate or initiate ransomware attacks to extract a final pound of flesh from the victim notably the study found that 75 percent of csos reported to the cio which many feel is not the right regime the study called for a rethinking of the right cyber regime where the cso has increased responsibility in a direct reporting line to the ceo or perhaps the co with greater exposure to boards of directors so many thanks to vmware and tom kellerman specifically for sharing this information with us this past week great work by your team now some of the themes that we've been talking about for several quarters are shown in the lower half of the chart cloud of course is the big driver thanks to work from home and the pandemic to pandemic and the interesting corollary of course is we see a rapid rethinking of endpoint and identity access management and the concept of zero trust in a recent esg survey two-thirds of respondents said that their use of cloud computing necessitated a change in how they approach identity access management now as shown in the chart from optiv the market remains highly fragmented and m a is of course way up now based on our research it looks like transaction volume has increased more than 40 percent just in the last five months so let's dig into the m a the merger and acquisition trends for just a moment we took a five month snapshot and we were able to count about 80 deals that were completed in that time frame those transactions represented more than 20 billion dollars in value some of the larger ones are highlighted here the biggest of course being the toma bravo taking proof point private for a 12 plus billion dollar price tag the stock went from the low 130s and is trading in the low 170s based on 176 dollar per share offer so there's your arbitrage folks go for it perhaps the more interesting acquisition was auth 0 by octa for 6.5 billion which we're going to talk about more in a moment there's more private equity action we saw as insight bought armis and iot security play and cisco shelled out 730 million dollars for imi mobile which is more of an adjacency to cyber but it's going to go under cisco's security and applications business run by g2 patel but these are just the tip of the iceberg some of the themes that we see connecting the dots of these acquisitions are first sis like accenture atos and wipro are making moves in cyber to go local they're buying secops expertise as i say locally in places like france germany netherlands canada and australia that last mile that belly-to-belly intimate service israel israeli-based startups chalked up five acquired companies in the space over the last five months also financial services firms are getting into the act with goldman and mastercard making moves to own its own part of the stack themselves to combat things like fraud and identity theft and then finally numerous moves to expand markets octa with zero crowdstrike buying a log management company palo alto picking up devops expertise rapid seven shoring up its kubernetes chops tenable expanding beyond insights and going after identity interesting fortinet filling gaps in a multi-cloud offering sale point extending to governance risk and compliance grc zscaler picked up an israeli firm to fill gaps in access control and then vmware buying mesh 7 to secure modern app development and distribution services so tons and tons of activity here okay so let's look at some of the etr data to put the cyber market in context etr uses the concept of market share it's one of the key metrics which is a measure of pervasiveness in the data set so for each sector it calculates the number of respondents for that sector divided by the total to get a sense for how prominent the sector is within the cio and i.t buyer communities okay this chart shows the full etr sector taxonomy with security highlighted across three survey periods april last year january this year in april this year now you wouldn't expect big moves in market share over time so it's relatively stable by sector but the big takeaway comes from observing which sectors are most prominent so you see that red line that dotted line imposed at the sixty percent level you can see there are only six sectors above that line and cyber security is one of them okay so we know that security is important in a large market but this puts it in the context of the other sectors however we know from previous breaking analysis episodes that despite the importance of cyber and the urgency catalyzed by the pandemic budgets unfortunately are not unlimited and spending is bounded it's not an open checkbook for csos as shown in this chart this is a two-dimensional graphic showing market share in the horizontal axis or pervasiveness and net score in the vertical axis net score is etr's measurement of spending velocity and we've superimposed a red line at 40 percent because anything over 40 percent we consider extremely elevated we've filtered and limited the number of sectors to simplify the graphic and you can see in the sectors that we've highlighted only the big four four are above that forty percent line ai containers rpa and cloud they exceed that sort of forty percent magic water line information security you can see that is highlighted and it's respectable but it competes for budget with other important sectors so this of course creates challenges for organization because not only are they strapped for talent as we've reported they like everyone else in it face ongoing budget pressures research firm cybersecurity ventures estimates that in 2021 6 trillion dollars worldwide will be lost on cyber crime conversely research firm canalis pegs security spending somewhere around 60 billion dollars annually idc has it higher around 100 billion so either way we're talking about spending between one to one point six percent annually of how much the bad guys are taking out that's peanuts really when you consider the consequences so let's double click into the cyber landscape a bit and further look at some of the companies here's that same x y graphic with the company's etr captures from respondents in the cyber security sector that's what's shown on the chart here now the usefulness of the red lines is 20 percent on the horizontal indicates the largest presence in the survey and the magic 40 percent line that we talked about earlier shows those firms with the most elevated momentum only microsoft and palo alto exceed both high water marks of course splunk and cisco are prominent horizontally and there are numerous companies to the left of the 20 percent line and many above that 40 percent high water mark on the vertical axis now in the bottom left quadrant that includes many of the legacy names that have been around for a long time and there are dozens of companies that show spending momentum on their platforms i.e above single digits so that picture is like the first one we showed you very very crowded space but so let's filter it a bit and only include companies in the etr survey that had at least a hundred responses so an n of a hundred or greater so it's a little easy to read but still it's kind of crowded when you think about it okay so same graphic and we've superimposed the data that determined the plot position over in the bottom right there so it's net score and shared n including only companies with more than 100 n so what does this data tell us about the market well microsoft is dominant as always it seems in all dimensions but let's focus on that red line for a moment some of the names that we've highlighted over the past two years show very well here first i want to talk about palo alto networks pre-covet as you might recall we highlighted the valuation divergence between palo alto and fortinet and we said fortinet was executing better on its cloud strategy and palo alto was at the time struggling with the transition especially with its go to market and its sales force compensation and really refreshing its portfolio but we told you that we were bullish on palo alto networks at the time because of its track record and the fact that cios consistently told us that they saw palo alto as a thought leader in the space that they wanted to work with they said that palo alto was the gold standard the best especially larger company cisos so that gave us confidence that palo alto a very well-run company was going to get its act together and perform better and palo alto has just done just that as we expected they've done very well and they've been rapidly moving customers to the next generation of platforms and we're very impressed by the company's execution and the stock has generally reflected that now some other names that hit our radar and the etr data a couple of years ago continue to perform well crowdstrike z-scaler sales sail point and cloudflare a cloudflare just reported and beat earnings but was off the stock fell on headwinds for tech overall the big rotation but the company is doing very well and they're growing rapidly and they have momentum as you can see from the etr data and we put that double star around proof point to highlight that it was worthy of fetching 12 and a half billion dollars from private equity firm so nice exit there supporting the continued control consolidation trend that we've predicted in cyber security now let's turn our attention to octa and auth zero this is where it gets interesting and is a clever play for octa we think and we want to drill into it a bit octa is acquiring auth zero for big money why well we think todd mckinnon octa ceo wants to run the table on identity and then continue to expand his tam he has to do that to justify his lofty valuation so octa's ascendancy around identity and single sign sign-on is notable the fragmented pictures that we've shown you they scream out for simplification and trust and that's what octa brings but it competes with some major players most notably microsoft with active directory so look of course microsoft is going to dominate in its massive customer base but the rest of the market that's like jump ball it's wide open and we think mckinnon saw the opportunity to go dominate that sector now octa comes at this from an enterprise perspective bringing top-down trust to the equation and throwing a big blanket over all the discrete sas platforms and unifying employee access octa's timing was perfect it was founded in 2009 just as the massive sasification trend was happening around crm and hr and service management and cloud etc but the one thing that octa didn't have that auth 0 does is serious developer chops while octa was crushing it with its enterprise sales strategy auth 0 was laser focused on developers and building a bottoms up approach to identity by acquiring auth0 octa can dominate both sides of the barbell and then capture the fat middle so yes it's a pricey acquisition but in our view it's a great move by mckinnon now i don't know mckinnon personally but last week i spoke to arun shrestha who's the ceo of security specialist beyond id they're a platinum services partner of octa and there a zero trust expert he worked for octa for a number of years and shared with me a bit about mckinnon's style and think big approach arun said something that caught my attention he said firewalls used to be the perimeter now people are and while that's self-serving to octa and probably beyond id it's true people apps and data are the new perimeter and they're not in one location and that's the point now unfortunately i had lined up an interview with dia jolly who was the chief product officer at octa in a cube alum for this past week knowing that we were running this segment in this episode but she unfortunately fell ill the day of our interview and had to cancel but i want to follow up with her and understand how she's thinking about connecting the dots with auth 0 with devs and enterprises and really test our thesis there this is a really interesting chess match that's going on let's look a little deeper into that identity space this chart here shows some of the major identity players it has some of the leaders in the identity market and there's a breakdown of etr's net score now net score comprises five elements the lime green is we're adding the platform new the forest green is we're spending six percent or more relative to last year the gray is flat send plus or minus flat spend plus or minus five percent the pinkish is spending less and the bright red is where exiting the platform retiring now you subtract the red from the green and that gets you the result for net score which you can see superimposed on the right hand chart at the bottom that first column there the far column is shared in which informs and indicates the number of responses and is a proxy for presence in the market oh look at the top two players in terms of spending momentum now sales sale point is right there but auth 0 combined with octa's distribution channel will extend octa's lead significantly in our view and then there's microsoft now just a caveat this includes all of microsoft's security offerings not just identity but it's there for context and cyber arc as well includes its acquisition of adaptive but also other parts of cyberarks portfolio so you can see some of the other names that are there many of which you'll find in the gartner magic quadrant for identity and as we said we really like this move by octa it combines positive market forces with lead offerings from very well-run companies that have winning dna and passionate people now to further emphasize emphasize what what's happening here take a look at this this chart shows etr data for octa within sale point and cyber arc accounts out of the 230 cyber and sale point customers in the data set there are 81 octa accounts that's a 35 overlap and the good news for octa is that within that base of sale point in cyber arc accounts octa is shown by the net score line that green line has a very elevated spending and momentum and the kicker is if you read the fine print in the right hand column etr correctly points out that while sailpoint and cyberarc have long been partners with octa at the recent octane 21 event octa's big customer event the company announced that it was expanding into privileged access management pam and identity governance hello and welcome to coopetition in the 2020s now our current thinking is that this bodes very well for octa and cyberark and sailpoint well they're going to have to make some counter moves to fend off the onslaught that is coming now let's wrap up with what has become a tradition in our quarterly security updates looking at those two dimensions of net score and market share we're going to see which companies crack the top 10 for both measures within the etr data set we do this every quarter so here on the left we have the top 20 sorted by net score or spending momentum and on the right we sort by shared n so again top 20 which informs shared end and forms the market share metric or presence in the data set that red horizontal lines those two lines on each separate the top 10 from the remaining 10 within those top 20. in our method what we do is we assign four stars to those companies that crack the top ten for both metrics so again you see microsoft palo alto networks octa crowdstrike and fortinet fortinet by the way didn't make it last quarter they've kind of been in and out and on the bubble but you know this company is very strong and doing quite well only the other four did last quarter there was same four last quarter and we give two stars to those companies that make it in both categories within the top 20 but didn't make the top 10. so cisco splunk which has been steadily decelerating from a spending momentum standpoint and z-scaler which is just on the cusp you know we really like z-scaler and the company has great momentum but that's the methodology it is what it is now you can see we kept carbon black on the rightmost chart it's like kind of cut off it's number 21 only because they're just outside looking in on netscore you see them there they're just below on on netscore number 11. and vmware's presence in the market we think that carbon black is really worth paying attention to okay so we're going to close with some summary and final thoughts last quarter we did a deeper dive on the solar winds hack and we think the ramifications are significant it has set the stage for a new era of escalation and adversary sophistication now major change we see is a heightened awareness that when you find intruders you'd better think very carefully about your next moves when someone breaks into your house if the dog barks or if you come down with a baseball bat or other weapon you might think the intruder is going to flee but if the criminal badly wants what you have in your house and it's valuable enough you might find yourself in a bloody knife fight or worse what's happening is intruders come to your company via island hopping or inside or subterfuge or whatever method and they'll live off the land stealthily using your own tools against you so they can you can't find them so easily so instead of injecting new tools in that send off an alert they just use what you already have there that's what's called living off the land they'll steal sensitive data for example positive covid test results when that was really really sensitive obviously still is or other medical data and when you retaliate they will double extort you they'll encrypt your data and hold it for ransom and at the same time threaten to release the sensitive information to crushing your brand in the process so your response must be as stealthy as their intrusion as you marshal your resources and devise an attack plan you face serious headwinds not only is this a complicated situation there's your ongoing and acute talent shortage that you tell us about all the time many companies are mired in technical debt that's an additional challenge and then you've got to balance the running of the business while actually affecting a digital transformation that's very very difficult and it's risky because the more digital you become the more exposed you are so this idea of zero trust people used to call it a buzzword it's now a mandate along with automation because you just can't throw labor at the problem this is all good news for investors as cyber remains a market that's ripe for valuation increases and m a activity especially if you know where to look hopefully we've helped you squint through the maze a little bit okay that's it for now thanks to the community for your comments and insights remember i publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com these episodes they're all available as podcasts all you do is search breaking analysis podcast put in the headphones listen when you're in your car out for your walk or run and you can always connect on twitter at divalante or email me at david.valante at siliconangle.com i appreciate the comments on linkedin and in clubhouse please follow me so you're notified when we start a room and riff on these topics and others and don't forget to check out etr.plus for all the survey data this is dave vellante for the cube insights powered by etr be well and we'll see you next time [Music] you

>> From The Cube Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from The Cube in ETR. This is "Breaking Analysis" with Dave Vellante >> The pandemic not only accelerated the shift to digital but it also highlighted a rush of cyber criminal sophistication, collaboration, and chaotic responses by virtually every major company in the planet. The SolarWinds hack exposed supply chain weaknesses and so-called island hopping techniques that are exceedingly difficult to detect. Moreover, the will and aggressiveness of well-organized cybercriminals has elevated to the point where incident responses are now met with counter attacks, designed to both punish and extract money from victims via ransomware and other criminal activities. The only upshot is the cybersecurity market remains one of the most enduring and attractive investment sectors for those that can figure out where the market is headed and which firms are best positioned to capitalize. Hello, everyone. And welcome to this week's Wikibon Cube Insights powered by ETR. In this "Breaking Analysis" we'll provide our quarterly update of the security industry, and share new survey data from ETR and the Cube community that will help you navigate through the maze of corporate cyber warfare. We'll also share our thoughts on the game of 3D chess that Okta CEO, Todd McKinnon, is playing against the market. Now, we all know this market is complicated, fragmented and fast moving. And this next chart says it all. It's an interactive graphic from Optiv, a Denver, Colorado-based SI that's focused on cybersecurity. They've done some really excellent research and put together this awesome taxonomy, and it mapped vendor names therein. And this helps users navigate the complex security landscape. And there are over a dozen major sectors, high-level sectors within the security taxonomy and nearly 60 subsectors. From monitoring, vulnerability assessment, identity, asset management, firewalls, automation, cloud, data center, sim, threat detection and intelligent endpoint network, and so on and so on and so on. But this is a terrific resource, and going to help you understand where players fit and help you connect the dots in the space. Now let's talk about what's going on in the market. The dynamics in this crazy mess of a landscape are really confusing sometimes. Now, since the beginning of cyber time, we've talked about the increasing sophistication of the adversary, and the back and forth escalation between good and evil. And unfortunately, this trend is unlikely to stop. Here's some data from Carbon Black's annual modern bank heist report. This is the fourth, and of course now, VMware's brand, highlights the Carbon Black study since the acquisition, and to catalyze the creation of VMware's cloud security division. Destructive malware attacks, according to the recent study are up 118% from last year. Now, one major takeaway from the report is that hackers aren't just conducting wire fraud, they are. 57% of the banks surveyed, saw an increase in wire fraud, but the cybercriminals are also targeting non-public information such as future trading strategies. This allows the bad guys to front-run large block trades and profit. It's become a very lucrative practice. Now the prevalence of so-called island hopping is up 38% from already elevated levels. This is where a virus enters a company supply chain via a partner, and then often connects with other stealthy malware downstream. These techniques are more common where the malware will actually self-form with other infected parts of the supply chain and create actions with different signatures, designed to identify and exfiltrate valuable information. It's a really complex problem. Of major concern is that 63% of banking respondents in the study reported that responses to incidents were then met with retaliation designed to intimidate, or initiate ransomware tax to extract a final pound of flesh from the victim. Notably, the study found that 75% of CISOs reported to the CIO, which many feel is not the right regime. The study called for a rethinking of the right cyber regime where the CISO has increased responsibility and a direct reporting line to the CEO, or perhaps the COO, with greater exposure to boards of directors. So, many thanks to VMware and Tom Kellerman specifically for sharing this information with us this past week. Great work by your team. Now, some of the themes that we've been talking about for several quarters are shown in the lower half of the chart. Cloud, of course is the big driver thanks to work-from-home and to the pandemic. And the interesting corollary of course, is we see a rapid rethinking of end point and identity access management, and the concept of zero trust. In a recent ESG survey, two thirds of respondents said that their use of cloud computing necessitated a change in how they approach identity access management. Now, as shown in the chart from Optiv, the market remains highly fragmented, and M&A is of course, way up. Now, based on our research, it looks like transaction volume has increased more than 40% just in the last five months. So let's dig into the M&A, the merger and acquisition trends for just a moment. We took a five-month snapshot and we were able to count about 80 deals that were completed in that timeframe. Those transactions represented more than $20 billion in value. Some of the larger ones are highlighted here. The biggest of course, being the Thoma Bravo, taking Proofpoint private for a $12 plus billion price tag. The stock went from the low 130s and is trading in the low 170s based on the $176 per share offer. So there's your arbitrage, folks. Go for it. Perhaps the more interesting acquisition was Auth0 by Optiv for 6.5 billion, which we're going to talk about more in a moment. There was more private equity action we saw as Insight bought Armis, an IOT security play, and Cisco shelled out $730 million for IMImobile, which is more of an adjacency to cyber, but it's going to go under Cisco security and applications business run by Jeetu Patel. But these are just the tip of the iceberg. Some of the themes that we see connecting the dots of these acquisitions are first, SIs like Accenture, Atos and Wipro are making moves in cyber to go local. They're buying SecOps expertise, as I say, locally in places like France, Germany, Netherlands, Canada, and Australia, that last mile, that belly to belly intimate service. Israeli-based startups chocked up five acquired companies in the space over the last five months. Also financial services firms are getting into the act with Goldman and MasterCard making moves to own its own part of the stack themselves to combat things like fraud and identity theft. And then finally, numerous moves to expand markets. Okta with Auth0, CrowdStrike buying a log management company, Palo Alto, picking up dev ops expertise, Rapid7 shoring up it's Coobernetti's chops, Tenable expanding beyond Insights and going after identity, interesting. Fortinet filling gaps in a multi-cloud offering. SailPoint extending to governance risk and compliance, GRC. Zscaler picked up an Israeli firm to fill gaps in access control. And then VMware buying Mesh7 to secure modern app development and distribution service. So tons and tons of activity here. Okay, so let's look at some of the ETR data to put the cyber market in context. ETR uses the concept of market share, it's one of the key metrics which is a measure of pervasiveness in the dataset. So for each sector, it calculates the number of respondents for that sector divided by the total to get a sense for how prominent the sector is within the CIO and IT buyer communities. Okay, this chart shows the full ETR sector taxonomy with security highlighted across three survey periods; April last year, January this year, and April this year. Now you wouldn't expect big moves in market share over time. So it's relatively stable by sector, but the big takeaway comes from observing which sectors are most prominent. So you see that red line, that dotted line imposed at the 60% level? You can see there are only six sectors above that line and cyber security is one of them. Okay, so we know that security is important in a large market. But this puts it in the context of the other sectors. However, we know from previous breaking analysis episodes that despite the importance of cyber, and the urgency catalyzed by the pandemic, budgets unfortunately are not unlimited, and spending is bounded. It's not an open checkbook for CSOs as shown in this chart. This is a two-dimensional graphic showing market share in the horizontal axis, or pervasiveness in net score in the vertical axis. Net score is ETR's measurement of spending velocity. And we've superimposed a red line at 40% because anything over 40%, we consider extremely elevated. We've filtered and limited the number of sectors to simplify the graphic. And you can see, in the sectors that we've highlighted, only the big four are above that 40% line; AI, containers, RPA, and cloud. They exceed that sort of 40% magic waterline. Information security, you can see that as highlighted and it's respectable, but it competes for budget with other important sectors. So this is of course creates challenges for organization, because not only are they strapped for talent as we've reported, they like everyone else in IT face ongoing budget pressures. Research firm, Cybersecurity Ventures estimates that in 2021, $6 trillion worldwide will be lost on cyber crime. Conversely, research firm, Cannolis peg security spending somewhere around $60 billion annually. IDC has at higher, around $100 billion. So either way, we're talking about spending between 1 to 1.6% annually of how much the bad guys are taking out. That's peanuts really when you consider the consequences. So let's double-click into the cyber landscape a bit and further look at some of the companies. Here's that same X/Y graphic with the companies ETR captures from respondents in the cybersecurity sector. That's what's shown on the chart here. Now, the usefulness of the red lines is 20% on the horizontal indicates the largest presence in the survey, and the magic 40% line that we talked about earlier shows those firms with the most elevated momentum. Only Microsoft and Palo Alto exceed both high watermarks. Of course, Splunk and Cisco are prominent horizontally. And there are numerous companies to the left of the 20% line and many above that 40% high watermark on the vertical axis. Now in the bottom left quadrant, that includes many of the legacy names that have been around for a long time. And there are dozens of companies that show spending momentum on their platforms, i.e above single digits. So that picture is like the first one we showed you, very, very crowded space. But so let's filter it a bit and only include companies in the ETR survey that had at least 100 responses. So an N of 100 or greater. So it was a little easier to read but still it's kind of crowded when you think about it. Okay, so same graphic, and we've superimposed the data that determined the plot position over in the bottom right there. So there's net score and shared in, including only companies with more than 100 N. So what does this data tell us about the market? Well, Microsoft is dominant as always, it seems in all dimensions but let's focus on that red line for a moment. Some of the names that we've highlighted over the past two years show very well here. First, I want to talk about Palo Alto Networks. Pre-COVID as you might recall, we highlighted the valuation divergence between Palo Alto and Fortinet. And we said Fortinet was executing better on its cloud strategy, and Palo Alto was at the time struggling with the transition especially with its go-to-market and its Salesforce compensation, and really refreshing its portfolio. But we told you that we were bullish on Palo Alto Networks at the time because of its track record, and the fact that CIOs consistently told us that they saw Palo Alto as a thought leader in the space that they wanted to work with. They said that Palo Alto was the gold standard, the best, especially larger company CISOs. So that gave us confidence that Palo Alto, a very well-run company was going to get its act together and perform better. And Palo Alto has just done just that. As we expected, they've done very well and rapidly moving customers to the next generation of platforms. And we're very impressed by the company's execution. And the stock has generally reflected that. Now, some other names that hit our radar in the ETR data a couple of years ago, continue to perform well. CrowdStrike, Zscaler, SailPoint, and CloudFlare. Now, CloudFlare just reported and beat earnings but was off, the stock fell on headwinds for tech overall, the big rotation. But the company is doing very well and they're growing rapidly and they have momentum as you can see from the ETR data. Now, we put that double star around Proofpoint to highlight that it was worthy of fetching $12.5 billion from private equity firm. So nice exit there, supporting the continued consolidation trend that we've predicted in cybersecurity. Now let's turn our attention to Okta and Auth0. This is where it gets interesting, and is a clever play for Okta we think, and we want to drill into it a bit. Okta is acquiring Auth0 for big money. Why? Well, we think Todd McKinnon, Okta CEO, wants to run the table on identity and then continue to expand as TAM has to do that, to justify his lofty valuation. So Okta's ascendancy around identity and single sign-on is notable. The fragmented pictures that we've shown you, they scream out for simplification and trust, and that's what Okta brings. But it competes with some major players, most notably Microsoft with active directory. So look, of course, Microsoft is going to dominate in its massive customer base, but the rest of the market, that's like (indistinct) wide open. And we think McKinnon saw the opportunity to go dominate that sector. Now Okta comes at this from an enterprise perspective bringing top-down trust to the equation, and throwing a big blanket over all the discreet SaaS platforms and unifying employee access. Okta's timing was perfect. It was founded in 2009, just as the massive SaaSifiation trend was happening around CRM and HR, and service management and cloud, et cetera. But the one thing that Okta didn't have that Auth0 does is serious developer chops. While Okta was crushing it with its enterprise sales strategy, Auth0 was laser-focused on developers and building a bottoms up approach to identity. By acquiring Auth0, Okta can dominate both sides of the barbell and then capture the fat middle. So yes, it's a pricey acquisition, but in our view, it's a great move by McKinnon. Now, I don't know McKinnon personally, but last week I spoke to Arun Shrestha, who's the CEO of security specialist, BeyondID, they're a platinum services partner of Okta. And they're a zero trust expert. He worked for Okta for a number of years and shared with me a bit about McKinnon's style, and think big approach. Arun said something that caught my attention. He said, firewalls used to be the perimeter, now people are. And while that's self-serving to Okta and probably BeyondID, it's true. People, apps and data are the new perimeter, and they're not in one location. And that's the point. Now, unfortunately, I had lined up an interview with Diya Jolly, who was the chief product officer at Okta and a Cube alum for this past week, knowing that we were running this segment in this episode but she unfortunately fell ill the day of our interview and had to cancel. But I want to follow up with her, and understand how she's thinking about connecting the dots with Auth0 with devs and enterprises and really test our thesis there. This is a really interesting chess match that's going on. Let's look a little deeper into that identity space. This chart here shows some of the major identity players. It has some of the leaders in the identity market, and is a breakdown at ETR's net score. Now net score comprises five elements. The lime green is, we're adding the platform new. The forest green is we're spending 6% or more relative to last year. The gray is flat send plus or minus flat spend, plus or minus 5%. The pinkish is spending less. And the bright red is we're exiting the platform, retiring. Now you subtract the red from the green, and that gets you the result for net score which you can see super-imposed on the right hand chart at the bottom, that first column there. The far column is shared in which informs and indicates the number of responses and is a proxy for presence in the market. Oh, look at the top two players in terms of spending momentum. Now SailPoint is right there, but Auth0 combined with Okta's distribution channel will extend Okta's lead significantly in our view. And then there's Microsoft. Now just a caveat, this includes all of Microsoft's security offerings, not just identity, but it's there for context. And CyberArk as well includes this acquisition of adaptive, but also other parts of CyberArk's portfolio. So you can see some of the other names that are there, many of which you'll find in the Gartner magic quadrant for identity. And as we said, we really like this move by Okta. It combines positive market forces with lead offerings from very well-run companies that have winning DNA and passionate people. Now, to further emphasize what's happening here, take a look at this. This chart shows ETR data for Okta within SailPoint and CyberArk accounts. Out of the 230 CyberArk and SailPoint customers in the dataset, there are 81 Okta accounts. That's a 35% overlap. And the good news for Okta is that within that base of SailPoint and CyberArk accounts, Okta is shown by the net score line, that green line has a very elevated spending in momentum. And the kicker is, if you read the fine print in the right hand column, ETR correctly points out that while SailPoint and CyberArk have long been partners with Okta, at the recent Octane21 event, Okta's big customer event, The company announced that it was expanding into privileged access management, PAM, and identity governance. Hello, and welcome to co-opetition in the 2020s. Now, our current thinking is that this bodes very well for Okta and CyberArk and SailPoint. Well, they're going to have to make some counter moves to fend off the onslaught that is coming. Now, let's wrap up with what has become a tradition in our quarterly security updates. Looking at those two dimensions of net score and market share, we're going to see which companies crack the top 10 for both measures within the ETR dataset. We do this every quarter. So here in the left, we have the top 20, sorted by net score spending momentum and on the right, we sort by shared N. So it's again, top 20, which informs, shared N informs the market share metric or presence in the dataset. That red horizontal lines, those two lines on each separate the top 10 from the remaining 10 within those top 20. And our method, what we do is we assign four stars to those companies that crack the top 10 for both metrics. So again, you see Microsoft, Palo Alto Networks, Okta, CrowdStrike, and Fortinet. Fortinet by the way, didn't make it last quarter. They've kind of been in and out and on the bubble, but company is very strong, and doing quite well. Only the other four did last quarter. They were the same for last quarter. And we give two stars to those companies that make it in both categories within the top 20 but didn't make the top 10. So Cisco, Splunk, which has been steadily decelerating from a spending momentum standpoint, and Zscaler, which is just on the cusp. We really like Zscaler and the company has great momentum, but that's the methodology. That is what it is. Now you can see, we kept Carbon Black on the right most chart, it's like kind of cut off, it's number 21. Only because they're just outside looking in on net score. You see them there, they're just below on net score, number 11. And VMware's presence in the market we think, that Carbon Black is right really worth paying attention to. Okay, so we're going to close with some summary and final thoughts. Last quarter, we did a deeper dive on the SolarWinds hack, and we think the ramifications are significant. It has set the stage for a new era of escalation and adversary sophistication. Now, major change we see is a heightened awareness that when you find intruders, you'd better think very carefully about your next moves. When someone breaks into your house, if the dog barks, or if you come down with a baseball bat or other weapon, you might think the intruder is going to flee. But if the criminal badly wants what you have in your house and it's valuable enough, you might find yourself in a bloody knife fight or worse. Well, what's happening is intruders come to your company via island hopping or insider subterfuge or whatever method. And they'll live off the land stealthily using your own tools against you so that you can't find them so easily. So instead of injecting new tools in that send off an alert, they just use what you already have there. That's what's called living off the land. They'll steal sensitive data, for example, positive COVID test results when that was really, really sensitive, obviously still is, or other medical data. And when you retaliate, they will double-extort you. They'll encrypt your data and hold it for ransom, and at the same time threaten to release the sensitive information, crushing your brand in the process. So your response must be as stealthy as their intrusion, as you marshal your resources and devise an attack plan. And you face serious headwinds. Not only is this a complicated situation, there's your ongoing and acute talent shortage that you tell us about all the time. Many companies are mired in technical debt, that's an additional challenge. And then you've got to balance the running of the business while actually effecting a digital transformation. That's very, very difficult, and it's risky because the more digital you become, the more exposed you are. So this idea of zero trust, people used to call it a buzzword, it's now a mandate along with automation. Because you just can't throw labor at the problem. This is all good news for investors as cyber remains a market that's ripe for valuation increases and M&A activity, especially if you know where to look. Hopefully we've helped you squint through the maze a little bit. Okay, that's it for now. Thanks to the community for your comments and insights. Remember I publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. These episodes, they're all available as podcasts. All you got to do is search breaking analysis podcasts, put in the headphones, listen when you're in your car, or out for your walk or run, and you can always connect on Twitter @DVellante, or email me at david.vellante@siliconangle.com. I appreciate the comments on LinkedIn and in Clubhouse, please follow me, so you're notified when we start a room and riff on these topics and others. And don't forget to check out etr.plus for all the survey data. This is Dave Vellante for The Cube Insights powered by ETR. Be well, and we'll see you next time. (light instrumental music)