>>Good afternoon from the Venetian Expo, center, hall, whatever you wanna call it, in Las Vegas. Lisa Martin here. It's day four. I'm not sure what this place is called. Wait, >>What? >>Lisa Martin here with Dave Ante. This is the cube. This is day four of a ton of coverage that we've been delivering to you, which, you know, cause you've been watching since Monday night, Dave, we are almost at the end, we're almost at the show wrap. Excited to bring back, we've been talking about security, a lot about security. Excited to bring back a, an alumni to talk about that. But what's your final thoughts? >>Well, so just in, in, in the context of security, we've had just three in a row talking about cyber, which is like the most important topic. And I, and I love that we're having Palo Alto Networks on Palo Alto Networks is the gold standard in security. Talk to CISOs, they wanna work with them. And, and it was, it's interesting because I've been following them for a little bit now, watch them move to the cloud and a couple of little stumbling points. But I said at the time, they're gonna figure it out and, and come rocking back. And they have, and the company's just performing unbelievably well despite, you know, all the macro headwinds that we love to >>Talk about. So. Right. And we're gonna be unpacking all of that with one of our alumni. As I mentioned, Anker Shaw is with us, the SVP and GM of Palo Alto Networks. Anker, welcome back to the Cub. It's great to see you. It's been a while. >>It's good to be here after a couple years. Yeah, >>Yeah. I think three. >>Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. It's a bit of a blur after Covid. >>Everyone's saying that. Yeah. Are you surprised that there are still this many people on the show floor? Cuz I am. >>I am. Yeah. Look, I am not, this is my fourth, last year was probably one third or one fourth of this size. Yeah. But pre covid, this is what dream went looked like. And it's energizing, it's exciting. It's just good to be doing the good old things. So many people and yeah. Amazing technology and innovation. It's been incredible. >>Let's talk about innovation. I know you guys, Palo Alto Networks recently acquired cyber security. Talk to us a little bit about that. How is it gonna compliment Prisma? Give us all the scoop on that. >>Yeah, for sure. Look, some of the recent, the cybersecurity attacks that we have seen are related to supply chain, the colonial pipeline, many, many supply chain. And the reason for that is the modern software supply chain, not the physical supply chain, the one that AWS announced, but this is the software supply chain is really incredibly complicated, complicated developers that are building and shipping code faster than ever before. And the, the site acquisition at the center, the heart of that was securing the entire supply chain. White House came with a new initiative on supply chain security and SBO software bill of material. And we needed a technology, a company, and a set of people who can really deliver to that. And that's why we acquired that for supply chain security, otherwise known as cicd, security, c >>IDC security. Yeah. So how will that complement PRIs McCloud? >>Yeah, so look, if you look at our history lease over the last four years, we have been wanting to, our mission mission has been to build a single code to cloud platform. As you may know, there are over 3000 security vendors in the industry. And we said enough is enough. We need a platform player who can really deliver a unified cohesive platform solution for our customers because they're sick and tired of buying PI point product. So our mission has been to deliver that code to cloud platform supply chain security was a missing piece and we acquired them, it fits right really nicely into our portfolio of products and solution that customers have. And they'll have a single pin of glass with this. >>Yeah. So there's a lot going on. You've got, you've got an adversary that is incredibly capable. Yeah. These days and highly motivated and extremely sophisticated mentioned supply chain. It's caused a shift in, in CSO strategies, talking about the pandemic, of course we know work from home that changed things. You've mentioned public policy. Yeah. And, and so, and as well you have the cloud, cloud, you know, relatively new. I mean, it's not that new, but still. Yeah. But you've got the shared responsibility model and not, not only do you have the shared responsibility model, you have the shared responsibility across clouds and OnPrem. So yes, the cloud helps with security, but that the CISO has to worry about all these other things. The, the app dev team is being asked to shift left, you know, secure and they're not security pros. Yeah. And you know, kind audit is like the last line of defense. So I love this event, I love the cloud, but customers need help in making their lives simpler. Yeah. And the cloud in and of itself, because, you know, shared responsibility doesn't do that. Yeah. That's what Palo Alto and firms like yours come in. >>Absolutely. So look, Jim, this is a unable situation for a lot of the Cisco, simply because there are over 26 million developers, less than 3 million security professional. If you just look at all the announcement the AWS made, I bet you there were like probably over 2000 features. Yeah. I mean, they're shipping faster than ever before. Developers are moving really, really fast and just not enough security people to keep up with the velocity and the innovation. So you are right, while AWS will guarantee securing the infrastructure layer, but everything that is built on top of it, the new machine learning stuff, the new application, the new supply chain applications that are developed, that's the responsibility of the ciso. They stay up at night, they don't know what's going on because developers are bringing new services and new technology. And that's why, you know, we've always taken a platform approach where customers and the systems don't have to worry about it. >>What AWS new service they have, it's covered, it's secured. And that's why the adopters, McCloud and Palo Alto Networks, because regardless what developers bring, security is always there by their side. And so security teams need just a simple one click solution. They don't have to worry about it. They can sleep at night, keep the bad actors away. And, and that's, that's where Palo Alto Networks has been innovating in this area. AWS is one of our biggest partners and you know, we've integrated with, with a lot of their services. We launch about three integrations with their services. And we've been doing this historically for more and >>More. Are you still having conversations with the security folks? Or because security is a board level conversation, are your conversations going up a stack because this is a C-suite problem, this is a board level initiative? >>Absolutely. Look, you know, there was a time about four years ago, like the best we could do is director of security. Now it's just so CEO level conversation, board level conversation to your point, simply because I mean, if, if all your financial stuff is going to public cloud, all your healthcare data, all your supply chain data is going to public cloud, the board is asking very simple question, what are you doing to secure that? And to be honest, the question is simple. The answer's not because all the stuff that we talked about, too many applications, lots and lots of different services, different threat vectors and the bad actors, the bad guys are always a step ahead of the curve. And that's why this has become a board level conversation. They wanna make sure that things are secure from the get go before, you know, the enterprises go too deep into public cloud adoption. >>I mean there, there was shift topics a little bit. There was hope or kinda early this year that that cyber was somewhat insulated from the sort of macro press pressures. Nobody's safe. Even the cloud is sort of, you know, facing those, those headwinds people optimizing costs. But one thing when you talk to customers is, I always like to talk about that, that optiv graph. We've all seen it, right? And it's just this eye test of tools and it's a beautiful taxonomy, but there's just too many tools. So we're seeing a shift from point tools to platforms because obviously a platform play, and that's a way. So what are you seeing in the, in the field with customers trying to optimize their infrastructure costs with regard to consolidating to >>Platforms? Yeah. Look, you rightly pointed out one thing, the cybersecurity industry in general and Palo Alto networks, knock on wood, the stocks doing well. The macro headwinds hasn't impacted the security spend so far, right? Like time will tell, we'll, we'll see how things go. And one of the primary reason is that when you know the economy starts to slow down, the customers again want to invest in platforms. It's simple to deploy, simple to operationalize. They want a security partner of choice that knows that they, it's gonna be by them through the entire journey from code to cloud. And so that's why platform, especially times like these are more important than they've ever been before. You know, customers are investing in the, the, the product I lead at Palo Alto network called Prisma Cloud. It's in the cloud network application protection platform seen app space where once again, customers that investing in platform from quote to cloud and avoiding all the point products for sure. >>Yeah. Yeah. And you've seen it in, in Palo Alto's performance. I mean, not every cyber firm has is, is, >>You know, I know. Ouch. CrowdStrike Yeah. >>Was not. Well you saw that. I mean, and it was, and and you know, the large customers were continuing to spend, it was the small and mid-size businesses Yeah. That were, were were a little bit soft. Yeah. You know, it's a really, it's really, I mean, you see Okta now, you know, after they had some troubles announcing that, you know, their, their, their visibility's a little bit better. So it's, it's very hard to predict right now. And of course if TOMA Brava is buying you, then your stock price has been up and steady. That's, >>Yeah. Look, I think the key is to have a diversified portfolio of products. Four years ago before our CEO cash took over the reins of the company, we were a single product X firewall company. Right. And over time we have added XDR with the first one to introduce that recently launched x Im, you know, to, to make sure we build an NextGen team, cloud security is a completely net new investment, zero trust with access as workers started working remotely and they needed to make sure enterprises needed to make sure that they're accessing the applications securely. So we've added a lot of portfolio products over time. So you have to remain incredibly diversified, stay strong, because there will be stuff like remote work that slowed down. But if you've got other portfolio product like cloud security, while those secular tailwinds continue to grow, I mean, look how fast AWS is growing. 35, 40%, like $80 billion run rate. Crazy at that, that scale. So luckily we've got the portfolio of products to ensure that regardless of what the customer's journey is, macro headwinds are, we've got portfolio of solutions to help our customers. >>Talk a little bit about the AWS partnership. You talked about the run rate and I was reading a few days ago. You're right. It's an 82 billion arr, massive run rate. It's crazy. Well, what are, what is a Palo Alto Networks doing with aws and what's the value in it to help your customers on a secure digital transformation journey? >>Well, absolutely. We have been doing business with aws. We've been one of their security partners of choice for many years now. We have a presence in the marketplace where customers can through one click deploy the, the several Palo Alto Networks security solutions. So that's available. Like I said, we had launch partner to many, many new products and innovation that AWS comes up with. But always the day one partner, Adam was talking about some of those announcements and his keynote security data lake was one of those. And they were like a bunch of others related to compute and others. So we have been a partner for a long time, and look, AWS is an incredibly customer obsessed company. They've got their own security products. But if the customer says like, Hey, like I'd like to pick this from yours, but there's three other things from Palo Alto Networks or S MacCloud or whatever else that may be, they're open to it. And that's the great thing about AWS where it doesn't have to be wall garden open ecosystem, let the customer pick the best. >>And, and that's, I mean, there's, there's examples where AWS is directly competitive. I mean, my favorite example is Redshift and Snowflake. I mean those are directly competitive products, but, but Snowflake is an unbelievably great relationship with aws. They do cyber's, I think different, I mean, yeah, you got guard duty and you got some other stuff there. But generally speaking, the, correct me if I'm wrong, the e the ecosystem has more room to play on AWS than it may on some other clouds. >>A hundred percent. Yeah. Once again, you know, guard duty for examples, we've got a lot of customers who use guard duty and Prisma Cloud and other Palo Alto Networks products. And we also ingest the data from guard duty. So if customers want a single pane of glass, they can use the best of AWS in terms of guard duty threat detection, but leverage other technology suite from, you know, a platform provider like Palo Alto Networks. So you know, that that, you know, look, world is a complicated place. Some like blue, some like red, whatever that may be. But we believe in giving customers that choice, just like AWS customers want that. Not a >>Problem. And at least today they're not like directly, you know, in your space. Yeah. You know, and even if they were, you've got such a much mature stack. Absolutely. And my, my frankly Microsoft's different, right? I mean, you see, I mean even the analysts were saying that some of the CrowdStrike's troubles for, cuz Microsoft's got the good enough, right? So >>Yeah. Endpoint security. Yeah. And >>Yeah, for sure. So >>Do you have a favorite example of a customer where Palo Alto Networks has really helped them come in and, and enable that secure business transformation? Anything come to mind that you think really shines a light on Palo Alto Networks and what it's able to do? >>Yeah, look, we have customers across, and I'm gonna speak to public cloud in general, right? Like Palo Alto has over 60,000 customers. So we've been helping with that business transformation for years now. But because it's reinvented aws, the Prisma cloud product has been helping customers across different industry verticals. Some of the largest credit card processing companies, they can process transactions because we are running security on top of the workloads, the biggest financial services, biggest healthcare customers. They're able to put the patient health records in public cloud because Palo Alto Networks is helping them get there. So we are helping accelerated that digital journey. We've been an enabler. Security is often perceived as a blocker, but we have always treated our role as enabler. How can we get developers and enterprises to move as fast as possible? And like, my favorite thing is that, you know, moving fast and going digital is not a monopoly of just a tech company. Every company is gonna be a tech company Oh absolutely. To public cloud. Yes. And we want to help them get there. Yeah. >>So the other thing too, I mean, I'll just give you some data. I love data. I have a, ETR is our survey partner and I'm looking at Data 395. They do a survey every quarter, 1,250 respondents on this survey. 395 were Palo Alto customers, fortune 500 s and P 500, you know, big global 2000 companies as well. Some small companies. Single digit churn. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Very, very low replacement >>Rates. Absolutely. >>And still high single digit new adoption. Yeah. Right. So you've got that tailwind going for you. Yeah, >>Right. It's, it's sticky because especially our, our main business firewall, once you deploy the firewall, we are inspecting all the network traffic. It's just so hard to rip and replace. Customers are getting value every second, every minute because we are thwarting attacks from public cloud. And look, we, we, we provide solutions not just product, we just don't leave the product and ask the customers to deploy it. We help them with deployment consumption of the product. And we've been really fortunate with that kind of gross dollar and netten rate for our customers. >>Now, before we wrap, I gotta tease, the cube is gonna be at Palo Alto Ignite. Yeah. In two weeks back here. I think we're at D mgm, right? We >>Were at D MGM December 13th and >>14th. So give us a little, show us a little leg if you would. What could we expect? >>Hey, look, I mean, a lot of exciting new things coming. Obviously I can't talk about it right now. The PR Inc is still not dry yet. But lots of, lots of new innovation across our three main businesses. Network security, public cloud, security, as well as XDR X. Im so stay tuned. You know, you'll, you'll see a lot of new exciting things coming up. >>Looking forward to it. >>We are looking forward to it. Last question on curf. You, if you had a billboard to place in New York Times Square. Yeah. You're gonna take over the the the Times Square Nasdaq. What does the billboard say about why organizations should be working with Palo Alto Networks? Yeah. To really embed security into their dna. Yeah. >>You know when Jim said Palo Alto Networks is the gold standard for security, I thought it was gonna steal it. I think it's pretty good gold standard for security. But I'm gonna go with our mission cyber security partner's choice. We want to be known as that and that's who we are. >>Beautifully said. Walker, thank you so much for joining David in the program. We really appreciate your insights, your time. We look forward to seeing you in a couple weeks back here in Vegas. >>Absolutely. Can't have enough of Vegas. Thank you. Lisa. >>Can't have in Vegas, >>I dunno about that. By this time of the year, I think we can have had enough of Vegas, but we're gonna be able to see you on the cubes coverage, which you could catch up. Palo Alto Networks show Ignite December, I believe 13th and 14th on the cube.net. We want to thank Anker Shaw for joining us. For Dave Ante, this is Lisa Martin. You're watching the Cube, the leader in live enterprise and emerging tech coverage.

>>EDR NDR, what are the differences, which one's better? Are they better together? Today's security stack contains a lot of different tools and types of data and fortunate, as you know, this creates data silos, which leads to vis visibility gaps. EDR is endpoint detection and response. It's designed to monitor and mitigate endpoint attacks, which are typically focused on computers and servers, NDR network detection, and response. On the other hand, monitors network traffic to gain visibility into potential or active cyber threats, delivering real time visibility across the broader network. One of the biggest advantages that NDR has over EDR is that bad actors can hide or manipulate endpoint data, pretty easily network data. On the other hand, much harder to manipulate because attackers and malware can avoid detection at the endpoint. NDR, as you're gonna hear is the only real source for reliable, accurate, and comprehensive data. >>All endpoints use the network to communicate, which makes your network data, the ultimate source of truth. My name is Lisa Martin, and today on the special cube presentation, Tom Binkowski senior director of product marketing at net scout, and I are gonna explore the trends and the vital reasons why relying upon EDR is not quite enough. We're also gonna share with you the growing importance of advanced NDR. Welcome to the series, the growing importance of advanced NDR in the first segment, Tom's gonna talk with me about the trends that are driving enterprise security teams to implement multiple cyber security solutions that enable greater visibility, greater protection. We're also gonna explore Gartner's concept of the security operations center, SOC visibility triad, and the three main data sources for visibility, SIM EDR and NDR in segment two, Tom. And I will talk about the role of NDR and how it overcomes the challenges of EDR as Tom's gonna discuss, as you'll hear EDR is absolutely needed, but as he will explain it, can't be solely relied upon for comprehensive cybersecurity. And then finally, we'll come back for a third and final segment to discuss why not all NDR is created equal. Tom's gonna unpack the features and the capabilities that are most important when choosing an NDR solution. Let's do this. Here comes our first segment. >>Hey, everyone kicking things off. This is segment one. I'm Lisa Martin with Tom Binowski, senior director of product marketing at nets scout. Welcome to the growing importance of advanced NDR. Tom, great to have you on the program, >>Glad to be here. >>So we're gonna be talking about the trends that are driving enterprise security teams to implement multiple cyber security solutions that really enable greater visibility and protection. And there are a number of factors that continue to expand the ECAC service for enterprise networks. I always like to think of them as kind of the spreading amorphously you shared had shared some stats with me previously, Tom, some cloud adoption stats for 2022 94% of all enterprises today use a cloud service and more than 60% of all corporate data is store in the cloud. So, Tom, what are some of the key trends that nets scout is seeing in the market with respect to this? >>Yeah, so just to continue that, you know, those stats that, that migration of workloads to the cloud is a major trend that we're seeing in that was exasperated by the pandemic, right along with working from home. Those two things are probably the most dramatic changes that we we see out there today. But along with that is also this growing sophistication of the network, you know, today, you know, your network environment, isn't a simple hub and spoke or something like that. It is a very sophisticated combination of, you know, high speed backbones, potentially up to a hundred gigabits combination with partner networks. You have, like we said, workloads up in, in private clouds, pub public clouds. So you have this hybrid cloud environment. So, and then you have applications that are multi-tiered, there are pieces and parts. And in all of that, some on your premise, some up in a private cloud, some on a public cloud, some actually pulling data off when you a customer network or potentially even a, a partner network. So really, really sophisticated environment today. And that's requiring this need for very comprehensive network visibility, not only for, for cybersecurity purposes, but also just to make sure that those applications and networks are performing as you have designed them. >>So when it comes to gaining visibility into cyber threats, I, you talked about the, the sophistication and it sounds like even the complexity of these networks, Gartner introduced the concept of the security operations, visibility triad, or the SOC visibility triad break that down for us. It consists of three main data sources, but to break those three main data sources down for us. >>Sure. So Gartner came out a few years ago where they were trying to, you know, summarize where do security operations team get visibility into threats and they put together a triad and the three sides of the trier consists of one, the SIM security information event manager, two, the endpoint or, or data that you get from EDR systems, endpoint detection, response systems. And the third side is the network or the data you get from network detection, response systems. And, you know, they didn't necessarily say one is better than the other. They're basically said that you need all three in order to have comprehensive visibility for cybersecurity purposes. >>So talk, so all, all three perspectives are needed. Talk about what each provides, what are the different perspectives on threat detection and remediation? >>Yeah. So let's start with the SIM, you know, that is a device that is gathering alerts or logs from all kinds of different devices all over your network. Be it routers servers, you know, firewalls IDs, or even from endpoint detection and network detection devices too. So it is, it is the aggregator or consumer of all those alerts. The SIM is trying to correlate those alerts across all those different data sources and, and trying to the best it can to bubble up potentially the highest priority alerts or drawing correlations and, and, and, and giving you some guidance on, Hey, here's something that we think is, is really of importance or high priority. Here's some information that we have across these disparate data sources. Now go investigate the disadvantage of the SIM is that's all it gives you is just these logs or, or, or information. It doesn't give you any further context. >>Like what happened, what is really happening at the end point? Can I get visibility into the, into the files that were potentially manipulated or the, the registry setting or what, what happened on the network? And I get visibility into the packet date or things like that. It that's, so that's where it ends. And, and that's where the, so there other two sides of the equation come in, the endpoint will give you that deeper visibility, endpoint detection response. It will look for known and or unknown threats, you know, at that endpoint, it'll give you all kinds of additional information that is occurring in endpoint, whether it be a registry setting in memory on the file, et cetera. But you know, one of, some of its disadvantages, it's really difficult because really difficult to deploy pervasive because it requires an agent and, you know, not all devices can accept an agent, but what it miss, what is lacking is the context on the network. >>So if I was an analyst and I started pursuing from my SIM, I went down to the end point and, and said, I wanna investigate this further. And I hit a, I hit a dead end from some sort, or I realize that the device that's potentially I should be alerted to, or should be concerned about is an IOT device that doesn't even have an agent on it. My next source of visibility is on the network and that's where NDR comes in. It, it sees what's traversing. The entire network provides you visibility into that from both a metadata and even a ultimately a packer perspective. And maybe, you know, could be deployed a little bit more strategically, but you know, it doesn't have the perspective of the endpoint. So you can see how each of these sort of compliments each other. And that's why, you know, Gartner said that, that you need 'em all, then they all play a role. They all have their pros and cons or advantage and disadvantages, but, you know, bringing them and using 'em together is, is the key. >>I wanna kinda dig into some of the, the EDR gaps and challenges, as you talked about as, as the things evolve and change the network, environment's becoming far more sophisticated and as well as threat actors are, and malware is. So can you crack that open more on some of the challenges that EDR is presenting? What are some of those gaps and how can organizations use other, other, other data sources to solve them? >>Yeah, sure. So, you know, again, just be clear that EDR is absolutely required, right? We, we need that, but as sort of these network environments get more complex, are you getting all kinds of new devices being put on the network that devices being brought into the network that may be, you didn't know of B Y O D devices you have, I T devices, you know, popping up potentially by the thousands in, in, in some cases when new applications or world that maybe can't accept an and endpoint detection or an EDR agent, you may have environments like ICS and skate environments that just, you can't put an endpoint agent there. However, those devices can be compromised, right? You have different environments up in the cloud or SaaS environments again, where you may not be able to deploy an endpoint agent and all that together leaves visibility gaps or gaps in, in, in the security operation triad. Right. And that is basically open door for exploitation >>Open door. Go ahead. Sorry. >>Yeah. And then, then you just have the malware and the, and the attackers getting more sophisticated. They, they have malware that can detect an EDR agent running or some anti malware agent running on device. And they'll simply avoid that and move on to the next one, or they know how to hide their tracks, you know, whether it be deleting files, registry, settings, things like that. You know, so it's, that's another challenge that, that, that just an agent faces. Another one is there are certain applications like my SQL that are, you know, have ministry administrative rights into certain parts of the windows operate system that EDR doesn't have visibility into another area that maybe EDR may not have visibility is, is, is in, you know, malware that tries to compromise, you know, hardware, especially like bios or something like that. So there's a number of challenges as sort of the whole network environment and sophistication of bad actors and malware increases. >>Ultimately, I think one of the things that, that we've learned, and, and we've heard from you in this segment, is that doing business in, in today's digital economy, demands, agility, table stakes, right? Absolutely essential corporate digital infrastructures have changed a lot in response to the dynamic environment, but its businesses are racing to the clouds. Dave Alane likes to call it the forced March to the cloud, expanding activities across this globally distributed digital ecosystem. They also sounds like need to reinvent cybersecurity to defend this continuously expanding threat surface. And for that comprehensive network, visibility is, as I think you were saying is really, really fundamental and more advanced network detection is, and responses required. Is that right? >>That's correct. You know, you know, we, we at ESCO, this is, this is where we come from. Our perspective is the network. It has been over for over 30 years. And, and we, as well as others believe that that network visibility, comprehensive network visibility is fundamental for cyber security as well as network performance and application analysis. So it, it, it's sort of a core competency or need for, for modern businesses today. >>Excellent. And hold that thought, Tom, cause in a moment, you and I are gonna be back to talk about the role of NDR and how it overcomes the challenges of EDR. You're watching the cube, the leader in enterprise tech coverage. Hey everyone, welcome back. This is segment two kicking things off I'm Lisa Martin with Tom Binkowski, senior director of product marketing at nets scout, Tom, great to have you back on the program. >>Good to be here. >>We're gonna be talking about the growing importance of advanced NDR in this series. In this segment specifically, Tom's gonna be talking about the role of NDR and how it overcomes the challenges of EDR. So Tom, one of the things that we talked about previously is one of the biggest advantages that NDR has over EDR is that bad actors can hide or manipulate endpoint data pretty easily, whereas network data, much harder to manipulate. So my question, Tom, for you is, is NDR the only real source for reliable, accurate, comprehensive data. >>I'm sure that's arguable, right? Depending on who you are as a vendor, but you know, it's, it's our, our answer is yes, NDR solutions also bring an analyst down to the packet level. And there's a saying, you know, the, the packet is the ultimate source or source of truth. A bad actor cannot manipulate a packet. Once it's on the wire, they could certainly manipulate it from their end point and then blast it out. But once it hits the wire, that's it they've lost control of it. And once it's captured by a network detection or, or network monitoring device, they can't manipulate it. They can't go into that packet store and, and manipulate those packets. So the ultimate source of truth is, is lies within that packet somewhere. >>Got you. Okay. So as you said in segment one EDR absolutely necessary, right. But you did point out it can't organizations can't solely rely on it for comprehensive cybersecurity. So Tom, talk about the benefits of, of this complimenting, this combination of EDR and NDR and, and how can that deliver more comprehensive cybersecurity for organizations? >>Yeah, so, so one of the things we talked about in the prior segment was where EDR, maybe can't be deployed and it's either on different types of devices like IOT devices, or even different environments. They have a tough time maybe in some of these public cloud environments, but that's where NDR can, can step in, especially in these public cloud environments. So I think there's a misconception out there that's difficult to get packet level or network visibility and public clouds like AWS or Azure or Google and so on. And that's absolutely not true. They have all kinds of virtual tapping capabilities that an NDR solution or network based monitoring solution could take advantage of. And one of the things that we know we spoke about before some of that growing trends of migrating workloads to the cloud, that's, what's driving that those virtual networks or virtual taps is providing visibility into the performance and security of those workloads. >>As they're migrated to public clouds, NDR can also be deployed more strategically, you know, prior segment talking about how the, in order to gain pervasive visibility with EDR, you have to deploy an agent everywhere agents can't be deployed everywhere. So what you can do with NDR is there's a lot fewer places in a network where you can strategically deploy a network based monitoring device to give you visibility into not only that north south traffic. So what's coming in and out of your network, but also the, the, the, the east west traffic too west traversing, you know, within your network environment between different points of your op your, your multi-tiered application, things like that. So that's where, you know, NDR has a, a, a little bit more advantage. So fewer points of points in the network, if you will, than everywhere on every single endpoint. And then, you know, NDR is out there continuously gathering network data. It's both either before, during, and even after a threat or an attack is, is detected. And it provides you with this network context of, of, you know, what's happening on the wire. And it does that through providing you access to, you know, layer two through layer seven metadata, or even ultimately packets, you know, the bottom line is simply that, you know, NDR is providing, as we said before, that that network context that is potentially missing or is missing in EDR. >>Can you talk a little bit about XDR that kind of sounds like a superhero name to me, but this is extended detection and response, and this is an evolution of EDR talk to us about XDR and maybe EDR NDR XDR is really delivering that comprehensive cybersecurity strategy for organizations. >>Yeah. So, you know, it's, it's interesting. I think there's a lot of confusion out there in the industry. What is, what is XDR, what is XDR versus an advanced SIM, et cetera. So in some cases, there are some folks that don't think it's just an evolution of EDR. You know, to me, XDR is taking, look at these, all these disparate data sources. So going back to our, when our first segment, we talked about the, the, the security operations center triad, and it has data from different perspectives, as we were saying, right? And XCR, to me is the, is, is trying to bring them all together. All these disparate data source sets or sources bring them together, conduct some level of analysis on that data for the analyst and potentially, you know, float to the top. The most, you know, important events are events that we, that you know, that the system deems high priority or most risky and so on. But as I, as I'm describing this, I know there are many advanced Sims out there trying to do this today too. Or they do do this today. So this there's this little area of confusion around, you know, what exactly is XDR, but really it is just trying to pull together these different sources of information and trying to help that analyst figure out, you know, what, where's the high priority event that's they should be looking at, >>Right? Getting those high priority events elevated to the top as soon as possible. One of the things that I wanted to ask you about was something that occurred in March of this year, just a couple of months ago, when the white house released a statement from president Biden regarding the nation's cyber security, it included recommendations for private companies. I think a lot of you are familiar with this, but the first set of recommendations were best practices that all organizations should already be following, right? Multifactor authentication, patching against known vulnerabilities, educating employees on the phishing attempts on how to be effective against them. And the next statement in the president's release, focus on data safety practices, also stuff that probably a lot of corporations doing encryption maintaining offline backups, but where the statement focused on proactive measures companies should take to modernize and improve their cybersecurity posture. It was vague. It was deploy modern security tools on your computers and devices to continuously look for and mitigate threats. So my question to you is how do, how do you advise organizations do that? Deploy modern security tools look for and mitigate threats, and where do the data sources, the SOC tri that we talked about NDR XDR EDR, where did they help fit into helping organizations take something that's a bit nebulous and really figure out how to become much more secure? >>Yeah, it was, it was definitely a little vague there with that, with that sentence. And also if you, if you, I think if, if you look at the sentence, deploy modern security tools on your computers and devices, right. It's missing the network as we've been talking about there, there's, there's a key, key point of, of reference that's missing from that, from that sentence. Right. But I think what they mean by deploying monitor security tools is, is really taking advantage of all these, these ways to gain visibility into, you know, the threats like we've been talking about, you're deploying advanced Sims that are pulling logs from all kinds of different security devices or, and, or servers cetera. You're, you're deploying advanced endpoint detection systems, advanced NDR systems. And so on, you're trying to use, you're trying to utilize XDR new technology to pull data from all those different sources and analyze it further. And then, you know, the other one we, we haven't even mentioned yet. It was the, so the security operation and automation, right. Response it's now, now what do we do? We've detected something, but now help me automate the response to that. And so I think that's what they mean by leveraging modern, you know, security tools and so on >>When you're in customer conversations, I imagine they're coming to, to Netscale looking for advice like what we just talked through the vagueness in that statement and the different tools that organizations can use. So when you're talking to customers and they're talking about, we need to gain visibility across our entire network, across all of our devices, from your perspective from net Scout's perspective, what does that visibility actually look like and deliver across an organization that does it well? >>Yeah, we, I mean, I think the simple way to put it is you need visibility. That is both broad and deep. And what I mean by broad is that you need visibility across your network, no matter where that network may reside, no matter what protocols it's running, what, you know, technologies is it, is it virtualized or, or legacy running in a hundred gigabits? Is it in a private cloud, a public cloud, a combination of both. So that broadness, meaning wherever that network is or whatever it's running, that's, that's what you need visibility into. It has to be able to support that environment. Absolutely. And the, the, absolutely when I, we talk about being deep it's, it has to get down to a packet level. It can't be, you know, as high as say, just looking at net flow records or something like that, that they are valuable, they have their role. However, you know, when we talk about getting deep, it has to ultimately get down to the packet level and that's, and we've said this in this time that it's ultimately that source of truth. So that, that's what that's, I think that's what we need. >>Got it. That that depth is incredibly important. Thanks so much, Tom, for talking about this in a moment, you and I are gonna be back, we're gonna be talking about why not all NDR is created equally, and Tom's gonna actually share with you some of the features and capabilities that you should be looking for when you're choosing an NDR solution. You're watching the cube, the leader in enterprise tech coverage, >>And we're clear. >>All right. >>10 45. Perfect. You guys are >>Okay. Good >>Cruising. Well, >>Welcome back everyone. This is segment three. I'm Lisa Martin with Tom gin. Kowski senior director of product marketing at nets scout. Welcome back to the growing importance of advanced NDR in this segment, Tom and I are gonna be talking about the fact that not all NDR is created equally. He's gonna impact the features, the capabilities that are most important when organizations are choosing an NDR solution. Tom, it's great to have you back on the program. >>Great, great to be here. >>So we've, we've covered a lot of content in the first two segments, but as we, as we see enterprises expanding their it infrastructure, enabling the remote workforce, which is here to stay leveraging the crowd cloud, driving innovation, the need for cybersecurity approaches and strategies that are far more robust and deep is really essential. But in response to those challenges, more and more enterprises are relying on NDR solutions that fill some of the gaps that we talked about with some of the existing tool sets in the last segment, we talked about some of the gaps in EDR solutions, how NDR resolves those. But we also know that not all NDR tools are created equally. So what, in your perspective, Tom are some of the absolutely fundamental components of NDR tools that organizations need to have for those tools to really be robust. >>Yeah. So we, we, we touched upon this a little bit in the previous segment when we talked about first and foremost, your NDR solution is providing you comprehensive network visibility that must support whatever your network environment is. And it should be in a single tool. It shouldn't have a one vendor per providing you, you know, network visibility in the cloud and another vendor providing network visibility in a local network. It should be a single NDR solution that provides you visibility across your entire network. So we also talked about it, not only does it need to be broadened like that, but also has to be deep too, eventually down to a packet level. So those are, those are sort of fundamental table stakes, but the NDR solution also must give you the ability to access a robust source of layer two or layer three metadata, and then ultimately give you access to, to packets. And then last but not least that solution must integrate into your existing cybersecurity stack. So in the prior segments, we talked a lot about, you know, the, the SIM, so that, that, that NDR solution must have the ability to integrate into that SIM or into your XDR system or even into your source system. >>Let's kind of double click on. Now, the evolution of NDR can explain some of the differences between the previous generations and advanced NDR. >>Yeah. So let's, let's start with what we consider the most fundamental difference. And that is solution must be packet based. There are other ways to get network visibility. One is using net flow and there are some NDR solutions that rely upon net flow for their source of, of, of visibility. But that's too shallow. You ultimately, you need to get deeper. You need to get down to a pack level and that's again where some, so, you know, you, you want to make sure that your NDR or advanced NDR solution is packet based. Number two, you wanna make sure that when you're pulling packets off the wire, you can do it at scale, that full line rate and in any environment, as we, as we spoke about previously, whether it be your local environment or a public cloud environment, number three, you wanna be able to do this when your traffic is encrypted. As we know a lot of, lot of not of network traffic is encrypted today. So you have the ability to have to have the ability to decrypt that traffic and then analyze it with your NDR system. >>Another, another, another one number four is, okay, I'm not just pulling packets off the wire, throwing full packets into a data storage someplace. That's gonna, you know, fill up a disc in a matter of seconds, right? You want the ability to extract a meaningful set of metadata from layer two to layer seven, the OSI model look at key metrics and conducting initial set of analysis, have the ability to index and compress that data, that metadata as well as packets on these local storage devices on, you know, so having the ability to do this packet capture at scale is really important, storing that packets and metadata locally versus up in a cloud to, you know, help with some compliance and, and confidentiality issues. And then, you know, last final least when we talk about integration into that security stack, it's multiple levels of integration. Sure. We wanna send alerts up into that SIM, but we also want the ability to, you know, work with that XDR system to, or that, that source system to drill back down into that metadata packets for further analysis. And then last but not least that piece of integration should be that there's a robust set of information that these NDR systems are pulling off the wire many times in more advanced mature organizations, you know, security teams, data scientists, et cetera. They just want access to that raw data, let them do their own analysis outside, say the user interface with the boundaries of a, of a vendor's user interface. Right? So have the ability to export that data too is really important and advance in the systems. >>Got it. So, so essentially that the, the, the breadth, the visibility across the entire infrastructure, the depth you mentioned going down to a packet level, the scale, the metadata encryption, is that what net scout means when you talk about visibility without borders? >>Yeah, exactly. You know, we, we have been doing this for over 30 years, pulling packets off of wire, converting them using patent technology to a robust set of metadata, you know, at, at full line rates up to a hundred in any network environment, any protocols, et cetera. So that, that's what we mean by that breadth. And in depth of visibility, >>Can you talk a little bit about smart detection if we say, okay, advanced NDR needs to deliver this threat intelligence, but it also needs to enable smart detection. What does net scout mean by that? >>So what you wanna make sure you have multiple methods of detection, not just a methods. So, you know, not just doing behavioral analysis or not just detecting threats based on known indicators or compromise, what you wanna wanna have multiple ways of detecting threats. It could be using statistical behavioral analysis. It could be using curated threat intelligence. It could be using, you know, open source signature engine, like from Sara COTA or other threat analytics, but to, but you also wanna make sure that you're doing this both in real time and have the ability to do it historically. So after a, a threat has been detected, for example, with another, with another product, say an EDR device, you now want the ability to drill into the data from the network that had occurred in, in, you know, prior to this. So historically you want the ability to comb through a historical set of metadata or packets with new threat intelligence that you've you've gathered today. I wanna be able to go back in time and look through with a whole new perspective, looking for something that I didn't know about, but you know, 30 days ago. So that's, that's what we, what we mean by smart detection. >>So really what organizations need is these tools that deliver a far more comprehensive approach. I wanna get into a little bit more on in integration. You talked about that in previous segments, but can you, can you give us an example of, of what you guys mean by smart integration? Is that, what does that deliver for organizations specifically? >>Yeah, we really it's three things. One will say the integration to the SIM to the security operations center and so on. So when, when an ed, when an NDR device detects something, have it send an alert to the SIM using, you know, open standards or, or, or like syslog standards, et cetera, the other direction is from the SIM or from the so, so one, you know, that SIM that, so is receiving information from many different devices that are, or detecting threats. The analyst now wants the ability to one determine if that's a true threat or not a false positive, if it is a true threat, you know, what help me with the remediation effort. So, you know, an example could be an alert comes into a SIM slash. So, and part of the playbook is to go out and grab the metadata packets associated with this alert sometime before and sometime after when that alert came in. >>So that could be part of the automation coming from the SIM slash. So, and then last one, not least is we alluded to this before is having the ability to export that robust set of layer two through layer seven metadata and or packets to a third party data lake, if you will, and where analysts more sophisticated analysts, data scientists, and so on, can do their own correlation, enrich it with their own data, combined it with other data sets and so on, do their own analysis. So it's that three layers of, of integration, if you will, that really what should be an advanced NDR system? >>All right, Tom, take this home for me. How does nets scout deliver advanced NDRs for organizations? >>We do that via solution. We call Omni the security. This is Netscout's portfolio of, of multiple different cyber security products. It all starts with the packets. You know, our core competency for the last 30 years has been to pull packets off the wire at scale, using patented technologies, for example, adapt service intelligence technologies to convert those broad packets into robust set of layer seven layer two through seven metadata. We refer to that data as smart data with that data in hand, you now have the ability to conduct multiple types of threat detection using statistical behavioral, you know, curative threat intelligence, or even open source. So rules engine, you have the ability to detect threats both in real time, as well as historically, but then a solution goes beyond just detecting threats or investigating threats has the ability to influence the blocking of threats too. So we have integrations with different firewall vendors like Palo Alto, for example, where they could take the results of our investigation and then, you know, create policies, blocking policies into firewall. >>In addition to that, we have our own Omni a E D product or our Arbor edge defense. That's, that's a product that sits in front of the firewall and protects the firewall from different types of attacks. We have integration that where you can, you can also influence policies being blocked in the a E and in last but not least, our, our solution integrates this sort of three methods of integration. As we mentioned before, with an existing security system, sending alerts to it, allowing for automation and investigation from it, and having the ability to export our data for, you know, custom analysis, you know, all of this makes that security stack that we've been talking about better, all those different tools that we have. That's that operations triads that we talked about or visibility triad, we talked about, you know, our data makes that entire triad just better and makes the overall security staff better and makes overall security just, just better too. So that, that that's our solution on the security. >>Got it. On the security. And what you've talked about did a great job. The last three segments talking about the differences between the different technologies, data sources, why the complimentary and collaborative nature of them working together is so important for that comprehensive cybersecurity. So Tom, thank you so much for sharing such great and thoughtful information and insight for the audience. >>Oh, you're welcome. Thank you. >>My pleasure. We wanna thank you for watching the program today. Remember that all these videos are available@thecube.net, and you can check out today's news on Silicon angle.com and of course, net scout.com. We also wanna thank net scout for making this program possible and sponsoring the cube. I'm Lisa Martin for Tomski. Thanks for watching and bye for now.

(contemplative upbeat music) >> Hello and welcome to this CUBE Conversation. I'm John Furrier, your host of theCUBE, here in Palo Alto, California. Got a great topic on expanding capabilities for urgent computing. Dan Stanzione, he's Executive Director of TACC, the Texas Advanced Computing Center, and Rajesh Pohani, VP of PowerEdge, HPC Core Compute at Dell Technologies. Gentlemen, welcome to this CUBE Conversation. >> Thanks, John. >> Thanks, John, good to be here. >> Rajesh, you got a lot of computing in PowerEdge, HPC, Core Computing. I mean, I get a sense that you love compute, so we'll jump right into it. And of course, I got to love TACC, Texas Advanced Computing Center. I can imagine a lot of stuff going on there. Let's start with TACC. What is the Texas Advanced Computing Center? Tell us a little bit about that. >> Yeah, we're part of the University of Texas at Austin here, and we build large-scale supercomputers, data systems, AI systems, to support open science research. And we're mainly funded by the National Science Foundation, so we support research projects in all fields of science, all around the country and around the world. Actually, several thousand projects at the moment. >> But tied to the university, got a lot of gear, got a lot of compute, got a lot of cool stuff going on. What's the coolest thing you got going on right now? >> Well, for me, it's always the next machine, but I think science-wise, it's the machines we have. We just finished deploying Lonestar6, which is our latest supercomputer, in conjunction with Dell. A little over 600 nodes of those PowerEdge servers that Rajesh builds for us. Which makes more than 20,000 that we've had here over the years, of those boxes. But that one just went into production. We're designing new systems for a few years from now, where we'll be even larger. Our Frontera system was top five in the world two years ago, just fell out of the top 10. So we've got to fix that and build the new top-10 system sometime soon. We always have a ton going on in large-scale computing. >> Well, I want to get to the Lonestar6 in a minute, on the next talk track, but... What are some of the areas that you guys are working on that are making an impact? Take us through, and we talked before we came on camera about, obviously, the academic affiliation, but also there's a real societal impact of the work you're doing. What are some of the key areas that the TACC is making an impact? >> So there's really a huge range from new microprocessors, new materials design, photovoltaics, climate modeling, basic science and astrophysics, and quantum mechanics, and things like that. But I think the nearest-term impacts that people see are what we call urgent computing, which is one of the drivers around Lonestar and some other recent expansions that we've done. And that's things like, there's a hurricane coming, exactly where is it going to land? Can we refine the area where there's going to be either high winds or storm surge? Can we assess the damage from digital imagery afterwards? Can we direct first responders in the optimal routes? Similarly for earthquakes, and a lot recently, as you might imagine, around COVID. In 2020, we moved almost a third of our resources to doing COVID work, full-time. >> Rajesh, I want to get your thoughts on this, because Dave Vellante and I have been talking about this on theCUBE recently, a lot. Obviously, people see what cloud's, going on with the cloud technology, but compute and on-premises, private cloud's been growing. If you look at the hyperscale on-premises and the edge, if you include that in, you're seeing a lot more user consumption on-premises, and now, with 5G, you got edge, you mentioned first responders, Dan. This is now pointing to a new architectural shift. As the VP of PowerEdge and HPC and Core Compute, you got to look at this and go, "Hmm." If Compute's going to be everywhere, and in locations, you got to have that compute. How does that all work together? And how do you do advanced computing, when you have these urgent needs, as well as real-time in a new architecture? >> Yeah, John, I mean, it's a pretty interesting time when you think about some of the changing dynamics and how customers are utilizing Compute in the compute needs in the industry. Seeing a couple of big trends. One, the distribution of Compute outside of the data center, 5G is really accelerating that, and then you're generating so much data, whether what you do with it, the insights that come out of it, that we're seeing more and more push to AI, ML, inside the data center. Dan mentioned what he's doing at TACC with computational analysis and some of the work that they're doing. So what you're seeing is, now, this push that data in the data center and what you do with it, while data is being created out at the edge. And it's actually this interesting dichotomy that we're beginning to see. Dan mentioned some of the work that they're doing in medical and on COVID research. Even at Dell, we're making cycles available for COVID research using our Zenith cluster, that's located in our HPC and AI Innovation Lab. And we continue to partner with organizations like TACC and others on research activities to continue to learn about the virus, how it mutates, and then how you treat it. So if you think about all the things, and data that's getting created, you're seeing that distribution and it's really leading to some really cool innovations going forward. >> Yeah, I want to get to that COVID research, but first, you mentioned a few words I want to get out there. You mentioned Lonestar6. Okay, so first, what is Lonestar6, then we'll get into the system aspect of it. Take us through what that definition is, what is Lonestar6? >> Well, as Dan mentioned, Lonestar6 is a Dell technology system that we developed with TACC, it's located at the University of Texas at Austin. It consists of more than 800 Dell PowerEdge 6525 servers that are powered with 3rd Generation AMD EPYC processors. And just to give you an example of the scale of this cluster, it could perform roughly three quadrillion operations per second. That's three petaFLOPS, and to match what Lonestar6 can compute in one second, a person would have to do one calculation every second for a hundred million years. So it's quite a good-size system, and quite a powerful one as well. >> Dan, what's the role that the system plays, you've got petaFLOPS, what, three petaFLOPS, you mentioned? That's a lot of FLOPS! So obviously urgent computing, what's cranking through the system there? Take us through, what's it like? >> Sure, well, there there's a mix of workloads on it, and on all our systems. So there's the urgent computing work, right? Fast turnaround, near real-time, whether it's COVID research, or doing... Project now where we bring in MRI data and are doing sort of patient-specific dosing for radiation treatments and chemotherapy, tailored to your tumor, instead of just the sort of general for people your size. That all requires sort of real-time turnaround. There's a lot AI research going on now, we're incorporating AI in traditional science and engineering research. And that uses an awful lot of data, but also consumes a huge amount of cycles in training those models. And then there's all of our traditional, simulation-based workloads and materials and digital twins for aircraft and aircraft design, and more efficient combustion in more efficient photovoltaic materials, or photovoltaic materials without using as much lead, and things like that. And I'm sure I'm missing dozens of other topics, 'cause, like I said, that one really runs every field of science. We've really focused the Lonestar line of systems, and this is obviously the sixth one we built, around our sort of Texas-centric users. It's the UT Austin users, and then with contributions from Texas A&M , and Texas Tech and the University of Texas system, MD Anderson Healthcare Center, the University of North Texas. So users all around the state, and every research problem that you might imagine, those are into. We're just ramping up a project in disaster information systems, that's looking at the probabilities of flooding in coastal Texas and doing... Can we make building code changes to mitigate impact? Do we have to change the standard foundation heights for new construction, to mitigate the increasing storm surges from these sort of slow storms that sit there and rain, like hurricanes didn't used to, but seem to be doing more and more. All those problems will run on Lonestar, and on all the systems to come, yeah. >> It's interesting, you mentioned urgent computing, I love that term because it could be an event, it could be some slow kind of brewing event like that rain example you mentioned. It could also be, obviously, with the healthcare, and you mentioned COVID earlier. These are urgent, societal challenges, and having that available, the processing capability, the compute, the data. You mentioned digital twins. I can imagine all this new goodness coming from that. Compare that, where we were 10 years ago. I mean, just from a mind-blowing standpoint, you have, have come so far, take us through, try to give a context to the level of where we are now, to do this kind of work, and where we were years ago. Can you give us a feel for that? >> Sure, there's a lot of ways to look at that, and how the technology's changed, how we operate around those things, and then sort of what our capabilities are. I think one of the big, first, urgent computing things for us, where we sort of realized we had to adapt to this model of computing was about 15 years ago with the big BP Gulf Oil spill. And suddenly, we were dumping thousands of processors of load to figure out where that oil spill was going to go, and how to do mitigation, and what the potential impacts were, and where you need to put your containment, and things like that. And it was, well, at that point we thought of it as sort of a rare event. There was another one, that I think was the first real urgent computing one, where the space shuttle was in orbit, and they knew something had hit it during takeoff. And we were modeling, along with NASA and a bunch of supercomputers around the world, the heat shield and could they make reentry safely? You have until they come back to get that problem done, you don't have months or years to really investigate that. And so, what we've sort of learned through some of those, the Japanese tsunami was another one, there have been so many over the years, is that one, these sort of disasters are all the time, right? One thing or another, right? If we're not doing hurricanes, we're doing wildfires and drought threat, if it's not COVID. We got good and ready for COVID through SARS and through the swine flu and through HIV work, and things like that. So it's that we can do the computing very fast, but you need to know how to do the work, right? So we've spent a lot of time, not only being able to deliver the computing quickly, but having the data in place, and having the code in place, and having people who know the methods who know how to use big computers, right? That's been a lot of what the COVID Consortium, the White House COVID Consortium, has been about over the last few years. And we're actually trying to modify that nationally into a strategic computing reserve, where we're ready to go after these problems, where we've run drills, right? And if there's a, there's a train that derails, and there's a chemical spill, and it's near a major city, we have the tools and the data in place to do wind modeling, and we have the terrain ready to go. And all those sorts of things that you need to have to be ready. So we've really sort of changed our sort of preparedness and operational model around urgent computing in the last 10 years. Also, just the way we scheduled the system, the ability to sort of segregate between these long-running workflows for things that are really important, like we displaced a lot of cancer research to do COVID research. And cancer's still important, but it's less likely that we're going to make an impact in the next two months, right? So we have to shuffle how we operate things and then just, having all that additional capacity. And I think one of the things that's really changed in the models is our ability to use AI, to sort of adroitly steer our simulations, or prune the space when we're searching parameters for simulations. So we have the operational changes, the system changes, and then things like adding AI on the scientific side, since we have the capacity to do that kind of things now, all feed into our sort of preparedness for this kind of stuff. >> Dan, you got me sold, I want to come work with you. Come on, can I join the team over there? It sounds exciting. >> Come on down! We always need good folks around here, so. (laughs) >> Rajesh, when I- >> Almost 200 now, and we're always growing. >> Rajesh, when I hear the stories about kind of the evolution, kind of where the state of the art is, you almost see the innovation trajectory, right? The growth and the learning, adding machine learning only extends out more capabilities. But also, Dan's kind of pointing out this kind of response, rapid compute engine, that they could actually deploy with learnings, and then software, so is this a model where anyone can call up and get some cycles to, say, power an autonomous vehicle, or, hey, I want to point the machinery and the cycles at something? Is the service, do you guys see this going that direction, or... Because this sounds really, really good. >> Yeah, I mean, one thing that Dan talked about was, it's not just the compute, it's also having the right algorithms, the software, the code, right? The ability to learn. So I think when those are set up, yeah. I mean, the ability to digitally simulate in any number of industries and areas, advances the pace of innovation, reduces the time to market of whatever a customer is trying to do or research, or even vaccines or other healthcare things. If you can reduce that time through the leverage of compute on doing digital simulations, it just makes things better for society or for whatever it is that we're trying to do, in a particular industry. >> I think the idea of instrumenting stuff is here forever, and also simulations, whether it's digital twins, and doing these kinds of real-time models. Isn't really much of a guess, so I think this is a huge, historic moment. But you guys are pushing the envelope here, at University of Texas and at TACC. It's not just research, you guys got real examples. So where do you guys see this going next? I see space, big compute areas that might need some data to be cranked out. You got cybersecurity, you got healthcare, you mentioned oil spill, you got oil and gas, I mean, you got industry, you got climate change. I mean, there's so much to tackle. What's next? >> Absolutely, and I think, the appetite for computing cycles isn't going anywhere, right? And it's only going to, it's going to grow without bound, essentially. And AI, while in some ways it reduces the amount of computing we do, it's also brought this whole new domain of modeling to a bunch of fields that weren't traditionally computational, right? We used to just do engineering, physics, chemistry, were all super computational, but then we got into genome sequencers and imaging and a whole bunch of data, and that made biology computational. And with AI, now we're making things like the behavior of human society and things, computational problems, right? So there's this sort of growing amount of workload that is, in one way or another, computational, and getting bigger and bigger. So that's going to keep on growing. I think the trick is not only going to be growing the computation, but growing the software and the people along with it, because we have amazing capabilities that we can bring to bear. We don't have enough people to hit all of them at once. And so, that's probably going to be the next frontier in growing out both our AI and simulation capability, is the human element of it. >> It's interesting, when you think about society, right? If the things become too predictable, what does a democracy even look like? If you know the election's going to be over two years from now in the United States, or you look at these major, major waves >> Human companies don't know. >> of innovation, you say, "Hmm." So it's democracy, AI, maybe there's an algorithm for checking up on the AI 'cause biases... So, again, there's so many use cases that just come out of this. It's incredible. >> Yeah, and bias in AI is something that we worry about and we work on, and on task forces where we're working on that particular problem, because the AI is going to take... Is based on... Especially when you look at a deep learning model, it's 100% a product of the data you show it, right? So if you show it a biased data set, it's going to have biased results. And it's not anything intrinsic about the computer or the personality, the AI, it's just data mining, right? In essence, right, it's learning from data. And if you show it all images of one particular outcome, it's going to assume that's always the outcome, right? It just has no choice, but to see that. So how we deal with bias, how do we deal with confirmation, right? I mean, in addition, you have to recognize, if you haven't, if it gets data it's never seen before, how do you know it's not wrong, right? So there's about data quality and quality assurance and quality checking around AI. And that's where, especially in scientific research, we use what's starting to be called things like physics-informed or physics-constrained AI, where the neural net that you're using to design an aircraft still has to follow basic physical laws in its output, right? Or if you're doing some materials or astrophysics, you still have to obey conservation of mass, right? So I can't say, well, if you just apply negative mass on this other side and positive mass on this side, everything works out right for stable flight. 'Cause we can't do negative mass, right? So you have to constrain it in the real world. So this notion of how we bring in the laws of physics and constrain your AI to what's possible is also a big part of the sort of AI research going forward. >> You know, Dan, you just, to me just encapsulate the science that's still out there, that's needed. Computer science, social science, material science, kind of all converging right now. >> Yeah, engineering, yeah, >> Engineering, science, >> slipstreams, >> it's all there, >> physics, yeah, mmhmm. >> it's not just code. And, Rajesh, data. You mentioned data, the more data you have, the better the AI. We have a world what's going from silos to open control planes. We have to get to a world. This is a cultural shift we're seeing, what's your thoughts? >> Well, it is, in that, the ability to drive predictive analysis based on the data is going to drive different behaviors, right? Different social behaviors for cultural impacts. But I think the point that Dan made about bias, right, it's only as good as the code that's written and the way that the data is actually brought into the system. So making sure that that is done in a way that generates the right kind of outcome, that allows you to use that in a predictive manner, becomes critically important. If it is biased, you're going to lose credibility in a lot of that analysis that comes out of it. So I think that becomes critically important, but overall, I mean, if you think about the way compute is, it's becoming pervasive. It's not just in selected industries as damage, and it's now applying to everything that you do, right? Whether it is getting you more tailored recommendations for your purchasing, right? You have better options that way. You don't have to sift through a lot of different ideas that, as you scroll online. It's tailoring now to some of your habits and what you're looking for. So that becomes an incredible time-saver for people to be able to get what they want in a way that they want it. And then you look at the way it impacts other industries and development innovation, and it just continues to scale and scale and scale. >> Well, I think the work that you guys are doing together is scratching the surface of the future, which is digital business. It's about data, it's about out all these new things. It's about advanced computing meets the right algorithms for the right purpose. And it's a really amazing operation you guys got over there. Dan, great to hear the stories. It's very provocative, very enticing to just want to jump in and hang out. But I got to do theCUBE day job here, but congratulations on success. Rajesh, great to see you and thanks for coming on theCUBE. >> Thanks for having us, John. >> Okay. >> Thanks very much. >> Great conversation around urgent computing, as computing becomes so much more important, bigger problems and opportunities are around the corner. And this is theCUBE, we're documenting it all here. I'm John Furrier, your host. Thanks for watching. (contemplative music)

>>Welcome everyone to the cubes presentation of the AWS startup showcase open cloud innovations. This is season two episode one of the ongoing series and we're covering exciting and innovative startups from the AWS ecosystem. Today. We're going to focus on the open source community. I'm your host, Dave Vellante. And right now we're going to talk about open source security and mitigating risk in light of a recent discovery of a zero day flaw in log for J a Java logging utility and a related white house executive order that points to the FTC pursuing companies that don't properly secure consumer data as a result of this vulnerability and with me to discuss this critical issue and how to more broadly address software supply chain risk is Don Fisher. Who's the CEO of tide lift. Thank you for coming on the program, Donald. >>Thanks for having me excited to be here. Yeah, pleasure. >>So look, there's a lot of buzz. You open the news, you go to your favorite news site and you see this, you know, a log for J this is an, a project otherwise known as logged for shell. It's this logging tool. My understanding is it's, it's both ubiquitous and very easy to exploit. Maybe you could explain that in a little bit more detail. And how do you think this vulnerability is going to affect things this year? >>Yeah, happy to, happy to dig in a little bit in orient around this. So, you know, just a little definitions to start with. So log for J is a very widely used course component that's been around for quite a while. It's actually an amazing piece of technology log for J is used in practically every serious enterprise Java application over the last 10 going on 20 years. So it's, you know, log for J itself is fantastic. The challenge that organization organizations have been facing relate to a specific security vulnerability that was discovered in log for J and that has been given this sort of brand's name as it happens these days. Folks may remember Heartbleed around the openness to sell vulnerability some years back. This one has been dubbed logged for shell. And the reason why it was given that name is that this is a form of security vulnerability that actually allows attackers. >>You know, if a system is found that hasn't been patched to remediate it, it allows hackers to get full control of a, of a system of a server that has the software running on it, or includes this log for J component. And that means that they can do anything. They can access, you know, private customer data on that system, or really do anything and so-called shell level access. So, you know, that's the sort of definitions of what it is, but the reason why it's important is in the, in the small, you know, this is a open door, right? It's a, if, if organizations haven't patched this, they need to respond to it. But one of the things that's kind of, you know, I think important to recognize here is that this log for J is just one of literally thousands of independently created open source components that flow into the applications that almost every organization built and all of them all software is going to have security vulnerabilities. And so I think that log for J is, has been a catalyst for organizations to say, okay, we've got to solve this specific problem, but we all also have to think ahead about how is this all gonna work. If our software supply chain originates with independent creators across thousands of projects across the internet, how are we going to put a better plan in place to think ahead to the next log for J log for shell style incident? And for sure there will be more >>Okay. So you see this incident as a catalyst to maybe more broadly thinking about how to secure the, the digital supply chain. >>Absolutely. Yeah, it's a, this is proving a point that, you know, a variety of folks have been making for a number of years. Hey, we depend, I mean, honestly these days more than 70% of most applications, most custom applications are comprised of this third party open source code. Project's very similar in origin and governance to log for J that's just reality. It's actually great. That's an amazing thing that the humans collaborating on the internet have caused to be possible that we have this rich comments of open source software to build with, but we also have to be practical about it and say, Hey, how are we going to work together to make sure that that software as much as possible is vetted to ensure that it meets commercial standards, enterprise standards ahead of time. And then when the inevitable issues arise like this incident around the log for J library, that we have a great plan in place to respond to it and to, you know, close the close the door on vulnerabilities when they, when they show up. >>I mean, you know, when you listen to the high level narrative, it's easy to point fingers at organizations, Hey, you're not doing enough now. Of course the U S government has definitely made attempts to emphasize this and, and shore up in, in, in, in, in push people to shore up the software supply chain, they've released an executive order last may, but, but specifically, I mean, it's just a complicated situation. So what steps should organizations really take to make sure that they don't fall prey to these future supply chain attacks, which, you know, are, as you pointed out are inevitable. >>Yeah. I mean, it's, it's a great point that you make that the us federal government has taken proactive steps starting last year, 2021 in the fallout of the solar winds breach, you know, about 12 months ago from the time that we're talking, talking here, the U S government actually was a bit ahead of the game, both in flagging the severity of this, you know, area of concern and also directing organizations on how to respond to it. So the, in May, 2021, the white house issued an executive order on cybersecurity and it S directed federal agencies to undertake a whole bunch of new measures to ensure the security of different aspects of their technology and software supply chain specifically called out open source software as an area where they put, you know, hard requirements around federal agencies when they're acquiring technology. And one of the things that the federal government that the white house cybersecurity executive order directed was that organizations need to start with creating a list of the third-party open source. >>That's flowing into their applications, just that even have a table of contents or an index to start working with. And that's, that's called a, a software bill of materials or S bomb is how some people pronounce that acronym. So th the federal government basically requires federal agencies to now create Nessbaum for their applications to demand a software bill of materials from vendors that are doing business with the government and the strategy there has been to expressly use the purchasing power of the us government to level up industry as a whole, and create the necessary incentives for organizations to, to take this seriously. >>You know, I, I feel like the solar winds hack that you mentioned, of course it was widely affected the government. So we kind of woke them up, but I feel like it was almost like a stuck set Stuxnet moment. Donald were very sophisticated. I mean, for the first time patches that were supposed to be helping us protect, now we have to be careful with them. And you mentioned the, the bill of its software, bill of materials. We have to really inspect that. And so let's get to what you guys do. How do you help organizations deal with this problem and secure their open source software supply chain? >>Yeah, absolutely happy to tell you about, about tide lift and, and how we're looking to help. So, you know, the company, I co-founded the company with a couple of colleagues, all of whom are long-term open source folks. You know, I've been working in around commercializing open source for the last 20 years that companies like red hat and, and a number of others as have my co-founders the opportunity that we saw is that, you know, while there have been vendors for some of the traditional systems level, open source components and stacks like Linux, you know, of course there's red hat and other vendors for Linux, or for Kubernetes, or for some of the databases, you know, there's standalone companies for these logs, for shell style projects, there just hasn't been a vendor for them. And part of it is there's a challenge to cover a really vast territory, a typical enterprise that we inspect has, you know, upwards of 10,000 log for shell log for J like components flowing into their application. >>So how do they get a hand around their hands around that challenge of managing that and ensuring it needs, you know, reasonable commercial standards. That's what tide lifts sets out to do. And we do it through a combination of two elements, both of which are fairly unique in the market. The first of those is a purpose-built software solution that we've created that keeps track of the third-party open source, flowing into your applications, inserts itself into your DevSecOps tool chain, your developer tooling, your application development process. And you can kind of think of it as next to the point in your release process, where you run your unit test to ensure the business logic in the code that your team is writing is accurate and sort of passes tests. We do a inspection to look at the state of the third-party open source packages like Apache log for J that are flowing into your, into your application. >>So there's a software element to it. That's a multi-tenant SAS service. We're excited to be partnered with, with AWS. And one of the reasons why we're here in this venue, talking about how we are making that available jointly with AWS to, to drink customers deploying on AWS platforms. Now, the other piece of the, of our solution is really, really unique. And that's the set of relationships that Tyler has built directly with these independent open source maintainers, the folks behind these open source packages that organizations rely on. And, you know, this is where we sort of have this idea. Somebody is making that software in the first place, right? And so would those folks be interested? Could we create a set of aligned incentives to encourage them, to make sure that that software meets a bunch of enterprise standards and areas around security, like, you know, relating to the log for J vulnerability, but also other complicated parts of open source consumption like licensing and open source license, accuracy, and compatibility, and also maintenance. >>Like if somebody looking after the software going forward. So just trying to basically invite open source creators, to partner with us, to level up their packages through those relationships, we get really, really clean, clear first party data from the folks who create, maintain the software. And we can flow that through the tools that I described so that end organizations can know that they're building with open source components that have been vetted to meet these standards, by the way, there's a really cool side effect of this business model, which is that we pay these open source maintainers to do this work with us. And so now we're creating a new income stream around what previously had been primarily a volunteer activity done for impact in this universe of open source software. We're helping these open source maintainers kind of GoPro on an aspect of what they do around open source. And that means they can spend more time applying more process and tools and methodology to making that open source software even better. And that's good for our customers. And it's good for everyone who relies on open source software, which is really everyone in society these days. That's interesting. I >>Was going to ask you what's their incentive other than doing the right thing. Can you give us an example of, of maybe a example of an open source maintainer that you're working with? >>Yeah. I mean, w we're working with hundreds of open source maintainers and a few of the key open source foundations in different areas across JavaScript, Java PHP, Ruby python.net, and, you know, like examples of categories of projects that we're working with, just to be clear, are things like, you know, web frameworks or parser libraries or logging libraries, like a, you know, log for J and all the other languages, right? Or, you know, time and date manipulation libraries. I mean, they, these are sort of the, you know, kind of core building blocks of applications and individually, they, you know, they may seem like, you know, maybe a minor, a minor thing, but when you multiply them across how many applications these get used in and log for J is a really, really clarifying case for folks to understand this, you know, what can seemingly a small part of your overall application estate can have disproportionate impact on, on your operations? As we saw with many organizations that spent, you know, a weekend or a week, or a large part of the holidays, scrambling to patch and remediate this, a single vulnerability in one of those thousands of packages in that case log. >>Okay, got it. So you have this two, two headed, two vectors that I'm going to call it, your ecosystem, your relationship with these open source maintainers is kind of a, that just didn't happen overnight, and it develop those relationships. And now you get first party data. You monetize that with a software service that is purpose built as the monitor of the probe that actually tracks that third, third party activity. So >>Exactly right. Got it. >>Okay. So a lot of companies, Donald, I mean, this is, like I said before, it's a complicated situation. You know, a lot of people don't have the skillsets to deal with this. And so many companies just kind of stick their head in the sand and, you know, hope for the best, but that's not a great strategy. What are the implications for organizations if they don't really put the tools and processes into place to manage their open source, digital supply chain. >>Yeah. Ignoring the problem is not a viable strategy anymore, you know, and it's just become increasingly clear as these big headline incidents that happened like Heartbleed and solar winds. And now this logged for shell vulnerability. So you can, you can bet on that. Continuing into the future and organizations I think are, are realizing the ones that haven't gotten ahead of this problem are realizing this is a critical issue that they need to address, but they have help, right. You know, the federal government, another action beyond that cybersecurity executive order that was directed at federal agencies early last year, just in the last week or so, the FTC of the U S federal trade commission has made a much more direct warning to private companies and industry saying that, you know, issues like this log for J vulnerability risk exposing private, you know, consumer data. That is one of the express mandates of the FTC is to avoid that the FTC has said that this is, you know, bears on both the federal trade commission act, as well as the Gramm-Leach-Bliley act, which relates to consumer data privacy. >>And the FTC just came right out and said it, they said they cited the $700 million settlements that Equifax was subject to for their data breach that also related to open source component, by the way, that that had not been patched by, by Equifax. And they said the FTC intents to use its full legal authority to pursue companies that failed to take reasonable steps, to protect consumer data from exposure as a result of log for J or similar known vulnerabilities in the future. So the FTC is saying, you know, this is a critical issue for consumer privacy and consumer data. We are going to enforce against companies that do not take reasonable precautions. What are reasonable precautions? I think it's kind of a mosaic of solutions, but I'm glad to say tide lift is contributing a really different and novel solution to the mix that we hope will help organizations contend with this and avoid that kind of enforcement action from FTC or other regulators. >>Well, and the good news is that you can tap a tooling like tide lift in the cloud as a service and you know, much easier today than it was 10 or 15 years ago to, to resolve, or at least begin to demonstrate that you're taking action against this problem. >>Absolutely. There's new challenges. Now I'm moving into a world where we build on a foundation of independently created open source. We need new solutions and new ideas, and that's a, you know, that's part of what we're, we're, we're showing up with from the tide lift angle, but there's many other elements that are going to be necessary to provide the full solution around securing the open source supply chain going forward. >>Well, Donald Fisher of tide lift, thanks so much for coming to the cube and best of luck to your organization. Thanks for the good work that you guys do. >>Thanks, Dave. Really appreciate your partnership on this, getting the word out and yeah, thanks so much for today. >>Very welcome. And you are watching the AWS startup showcase open cloud innovations. Keep it right there for more action on the cube, your leader in enterprise tech coverage.

(upbeat music) >> Welcome to theCube's continuous coverage of AWS re:Invent 2021. I'm Dave Nicholson, and we are running one of the industry's most important and largest hybrid tech events this year with AWS and its partners with two live sets on the scene. In addition to two remote studios. And we'll have somewhere in the neighborhood of a hundred guests on the program this year at re:Invent. I'm extremely delighted to welcome a very, very special guest. Right now. He served as the director of the NSA under two presidents, and was the first commander of the U.S Cyber Command. He's a Cube alumni, he's founder and co-CEO of IronNet Cybersecurity. General Keith Alexander. Thanks for joining us today General. >> Thanks, David. It's an honor to be here at re:Invent, you know, with AWS. All that they're doing and all they're making possible for us to defend sector states, companies and nations in cyber. So an honor to be here. >> Well, welcome back to theCube. Let's dive right in. I'd like to know how you would describe the current cyber threat landscape that we face. >> Well, I think it's growing. Well, let's start right out. You know, the good news or the bad news, the bad news is getting worse. We're seeing that. If you think about SolarWinds, you think about the Hafnium attacks on Microsoft. You think about this rapid growth in ransomware. We're seeing criminals and nation states engaging in ways that we've never seen in the past. It's more blatant. They're going after more quickly, they're using cyber as an element of national power. Let's break that down just a little bit. Do you go back to two, July. Xi Jinping, talked about breaking heads in bloodshed when he was referring to the United States and Taiwan. And this has gone hot and cold, that's a red line for him. They will do anything to keep Taiwan from breaking away. And this is a huge existential threat to us into the region. And when this comes up, they're going to use cyber to go after it. Perhaps even more important and closer right now is what's going on with Russia in the Donbas region of eastern Ukraine. We saw this in 2014, when Russia took over the Crimea. The way they did it, staging troops. They did that in 2008 against Georgia. And now there are, by some reports over a hundred thousand troops on the border of Eastern Ukraine. Some call it an exercise, but that's exactly what they did in Georgia. That's what they did in the Crimea. And in both those cases, they preceded those attacks, those physical attacks with cyber attacks. If you go to 2017, when Russia hit the Ukrainian government with the NotPetya attack that had global repercussions. Russia was responsible for SolarWinds, they have attacked our infrastructure to find out what our government is doing and they continue going. This is getting worse. You know, it's interesting when you think about, so what do you do about something like that? How do we stop that? And the answer is we've got to work together. You know, Its slam commissioner addressed it. The meeting with the president on August 25th. This is a great statement by the CEO and chairman of Southern Company, Tom Fanning. He said this, "the war is being waged on our nation's critical infrastructure in particular, our energy sector, our telecommunications sector and financial sector." The private sector owns and operates 87% of the critical infrastructure in the United States, making collaboration between industry and the federal government imperative too, for these attacks. SO >> General, I want to dig just a little bit on that point that you make for generations, people have understood that the term is 'kinetic war', right? Not everyone has heard that phrase, but for generations we've understood the concept of someone dropping a bomb on a building as being an attack. You've just mentioned that, that a lot of these attacks are directed towards the private sector. The private sector doesn't have an army to respond to those attacks. Number one, that's our government's responsibility. So the question I have is, how seriously are people taking these kinds of threats when compared to the threat of kinetic war? Because my gosh, you can take down the entire electrical grid now. That's not something you can do with a single bomb. What are your, what are your thoughts on that? >> So you're hitting on a key point, a theoretical and an operational point. If you look back, what's the intent of warfare? It's to get the mass of people to give up. The army protects the mass of people in that fight. In cyber, there's no protection. Our critical infrastructure is exposed to our adversaries. That's the problem that we face. And because it's exposed, we have a tremendous vulnerability. So those who wish us harm, imagine the Colonial Pipeline attack an order of magnitude or two orders of magnitude bigger. The impact on our country would paralyze much of what we do today. We are not ready for that. That's the issue that Tom Fanning and others have brought up. We don't practice between the public sector and the private sector working together to defend this country. We need to do that. That's the issue that we have to really get our hands around. And when we talk about practice, what do we mean? It means we have to let that federal government, the ones that are going to protect us, see what's going on. There is no radar picture. Now, since we're at re:Invent, the cloud, where AWS and others have done, is create an infrastructure that allows us to build that bridge between the public and private sector and scale it. It's amazing what we can now do. We couldn't do that when I was running Cyber Command. And running Cyber Command, we couldn't see threats on the government. And we couldn't see threats on critical infrastructure. We couldn't see threats on the private sector. And so it all went and all the government did was say, after the fact you've been attacked. That's not helpful. >> So >> It's like they dropped a bomb. We didn't know. >> Yeah, so what does IronNet doing to kind of create this radar capability? >> So, well, thanks. That's a great question because there's four things that you really got to do. First. You've got to be able to detect the SolarWinds type attacks, which we did. You've got to have a hunt platform that can see what it is. You've got to be able to use machine learning and AI to really cut down the number of events. And the most important you need to be able to anonymize and share that into the cloud and see where those attacks are going to create that radar picture. So behavioral analytics, then you use signature based as well, but you need those sets of analytics to really see what's going on. Machine learning, AI, a hunt platform, and cloud. And then analytics in the cloud to see what's going on, creates that air traffic control, picture radar, picture for cyber. That's what we're doing. You see, I think that's the important part. And that's why we really value the partnership with AWS. They've been a partner with us for six years, helping us build through that. You can see what we can do in the cloud. We could never do in hardware alone. Just imagine trying to push out equipment and then do that for hundreds of companies. It's not viable. So SaaS, what we are as a SaaS company, you can now do that at scale, and you can push this out and we can create, we can defend this nation in cyber if we work together. And that's the thing, you know, I really, had a great time in the military. One of the things I learned in the military, you need to train how you're going to fight. They're really good at that. We did that in the eighties, and you can see what happened in 1990 in the Gulf war. We need to now do that between the public and private sector. We have to have those training. We need to continuously uplift our capabilities. And that's where the cloud and all these other things make that possible. That's the future of cybersecurity. You know, it's interesting David, our country developed the internet. We're the ones that pioneered that. We ought to be the first to secure. >> Seems to make sense. And when you talk about collective defense in this private public partnership, that needs to happen, you get examples of some folks in private industry and what they're doing, but, but talk a little bit more about, maybe what isn't happening yet. What do we need to do? I don't want you to necessarily get political and start making budgetary suggestions, but unless you want to, but what, but where do you see, where do we really need to push forward from a public perspective in order to make these connections? And then how is that connection actually happen? This isn't someone from the IronNet security service desk, getting on a red phone and calling the White House, how are the actual connections made? >> So it has to be, the connections have to be just like we do radar. You know, when you think about radars across our nation or radar operator doesn't call up one of the towers and say, you've got an aircraft coming at you at such and such a speed. I hope you can distinguish between those two aircraft and make sure they don't bump into each other. They get a picture and they get a way of tracking it. And multiple people can see that radar picture at a speed. And that's how we do air traffic control safety. We need the same thing in cyber, where the government has a picture. The private sector has a picture and they can see what's going on. The private sector's role is I'm going to do everything I can, you know, and this is where the energy sector, I use that quote from Tom Fanning, because what they're saying is, "it's our job to keep the grid up." And they're putting the resources to do it. So they're actually jumping on that in a great way. And what they're saying is "we'll share that with the government", both the DHS and DOD. Now we have to have that same picture created for DHS and DOD. I think one of the things that we're doing is we're pioneering the building of that picture. So that's what we do. We build the picture to bring people together. So think of that is that's the capability. Everybody's going to own a piece of that, and everybody's going to be operating in it. But if you can share that picture, what you can begin to do is say, I've got an attack coming against company A. Company A now sees what it has to do. It can get fellow companies to help them defend, collective defense, knowledge sharing, crowdsourcing. At the same time, the government can see that attack going on and say, "my job is to stop that." If it's DHS, I could see what I have to do. Within the country, DOD can say, "my job is to shoot the archers." How do we go do what we're authorized to do under rules of engagement? So now you have a way of the government and the private sector working together to create that picture. Then we train them and we train them. We should never have had an event like SolarWinds happen in the future. We got to get out in front. And if we do that, think of the downstream consequences, not only can we detect who's doing it, we can hold them accountable and make them pay a price. Right now. It's pretty free. They get in, pap, that didn't work. They get away free. That didn't work, we get away free. Or we broke in, we got, what? 18,000 companies in 30,000 companies. No consequences. In the future there should be consequences. >> And in addition to the idea of consequences, you know, in the tech sector, we have this concept of a co-op petition, where we're often cooperating and competing. The adversaries from, U.S perspective are also great partners, trading partners. So in a sense, it sounds like what you're doing is also kind of adhering to the old adage that, that good fences make for great neighbors. If we all know that our respective infrastructures are secure, we can sort of get on with the honest business of being partners, because you want to make the cost of cyber war too expensive. Is that, is that a fair statement? >> Yes. And I would take that analogy and bend it slightly to the following. Today every company defends itself. So you take 90 companies with 10 people, each doing everything they can to defend themselves. Imagine in the world we trying to build, those 90 companies work together. You have now 900 people working together for the collective defense. If you're in the C-suite or the board of those companies, which would rather have? 900 help new security or 10? This isn't hard. And so what we say is, yes. That neighborhood watch program for cyber has tremendous value. And beyond neighborhood watch, I can also share collaboration because, I might not have the best people in every area of cyber, but in those 900, there will be, and we can share knowledge crowdsource. So it's actually let's work together. I would call it Americans working together to defend America. That's what we need to do. And the states we going to have a similar thing what they're doing, and that's how we'll work this together. >> Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. General Alexander it's been a pleasure. Thanks so much for coming on to theCube as part of our 2021 AWS re:Invent coverage. Are you going to get a chance to spend time during the conference in Las Vegas? So you just flying in, flying out. Any chance? >> Actually yeah. >> It's there, we're still negotiating working that. I've registered, but I just don't know I'm in New York city for two meetings and seeing if I can get to Las Vegas. A lot of friends, you know, Adam Solski >> Yes >> and the entire AWS team. They're amazing. And we really liked this partnership. I'd love to see you there. You're going to be there, David? Absolutely. Yes, absolutely. And I look forward to that, so I hope hopefully we get that chance again. Thank you so much, General Alexander, and also thank you to our title sponsor AMD for sponsoring this year's re:Invent. Keep it right here for more action on theCube, you're leader in hybrid tech event coverage, I'm Dave Nicholson for the Cube. Thanks. (upbeat music)

>>Mhm Hello and welcome back to the cubes coverage of 80 of his public sector summit live for two days in D. C. In person. CuBA's here is an expo floor that people face to face down here. Adriana guest co founder and Ceo of Girls in tech cube alumni friend of the cube. We've known her for a long time. Watch their success really making an impact. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >>Wonderful to see you, john, thanks so much for having me. >>You know, one of the things that Sandy carter talks about matt max Peter talks about all of the Amazonian leadership that's about is skills training. Okay, this is a big deal. Okay, so getting talented to the industry is critical and also diversity and women attacking underrepresented minority groups are key. This has been a look at constant focus, you've been successful and and convincing folks about tech and working hard, what's the update, >>wow. So the reason why we're here, not only as Sandy carter are amazing chairman of the board of six plus years, but I heard we heard so many pain points from several of our partners as well as our good friends over at the White House and the Department of State and many other public sector agencies that there is a deficit. It's been very difficult to find diverse groups of talent and talent period to join their companies and populate those important I. T. Jobs stem jobs, whether it's very very technical or more data driven or more sort of design focus, product development focus across the board it's been very hard for them to find talent for those jobs. So girls in tech has partnered with AWS to create an initiative called the next generation public sector leaders and really focusing on creating awareness on career development opportunities for up and coming talent diverse talent that is curious and interested in job opportunities and educational opportunities within the public sector. So it has multi tiers, right? And it's something that we've devised based on the need and based on a lot of data and a lot of interviews from a lot of our partners and within the A. P. N. Network and we're doing a mentorship program which is a six month long program matching these amazing public sector executives, really accomplished leaders as well as our members from around the world um to connect and expose them and provide that nurturing, fostering mentality so that they can succeed in their careers. So >>eight of us getting behind this mission. Yes. And public sector is really fast growing changing. You start to see a lot of public private partnerships go on. So not just the old school public sector business, I mean the pandemic has shown the impact of society. So what does that do for the melting pot of talent out there? Have you seen anything out there? And how does that relate to this? Is that helped you at all or what's that does that mean for the mission? >>So there is a melting pot of talent. I just think we need to do a better job of creating awareness and really knowing where that talent lives. Like what are the blogs that they read? What are the videos that they watch and listen to? Where are they? Right. And we need to do the hard work and investigating and understanding like taking a more empathetic approach to really finding out what um how we can access them what their needs are. What are the things that interest piqued their interest within these jobs within the public sector um And customize it and market it so that they'll be eager and excited. Um And it would be more appealing to them. >>So I looked at the press release I just want to get your reaction to something you got evening with the experts. It's an in person event. >>Yes. When >>is that? Is that here is that going to be on your own event? What's that about? >>All the events that are going to be in person? Will be in D. C. Um There will be some virtual events as well. Our mentorship program is all virtual six month long program with curriculum and matchmaking on a platform that we use the evening with the experts which is a panel discussion with experts from a A. W. S. And beyond the A. P. N. Network. We'll talk about challenges and technology opportunities within a career development and also jobs. Um Well do recruitment like on the fly type of activities as well. Speed and speed interviewing, speed networking? Um We also have a few other programs, our webinar which is about the next gen public sector opportunities and this is more about the challenges that people face that companies face and the new technologies that will be launched very soon. And we're doing a widget on our jobs board to highlight the new career opportunity, new job opportunities from all of the public sector partners. We work with >>a very comprehensive, >>It's very comprehensive on the six >>month guided mentorship program. How does someone get involved in applications? How what's that going on there? >>It will be an application process and we will promote it to anyone who signs up to our newsletter. So go to Girls in tech dot org. Sign up for our newsletter and we will be posting and sharing more information on how people get involved. But we'll definitely send custom uh E. D. M essentially promoting to the people who are here at the conference and also through our Girls in tech D. C. Chapter as well. >>So I have to ask you, I know you've been really busy, been very successful. You've been out and about what's the trend line looked like? Well >>not for the last few years though, >>you've >>been in lockdown now. >>You've been working hard, you know have not not about now. You >>are not >>about what's the temperature like now in terms of the pulse of the industry relative to progress, what's what's what are you finding, what's the current situation >>progress for women in tech in the industry. So Since I started girls in tech in 2007, we've made A lot of progress, I would say it's a lot slower than I thought it would be, but you do see more and more women and people representing bipac actually apply for those jobs. We it is astronomically different than 2006, when I started in my first startup and there's a lot more mentorship, There are a lot more organizations out there that companies are more accountable with the R. G. Groups and they're changing their policies, are changing their training programs are having more off sites, there's now technologies that focus on tracking uh productivity and happiness of employees so that like all of that did not exist or I should say none of that existed, you know? And so we worked hard, we've worked hard, but it takes a village, it takes a lot of different people to create that change. And now one of girls in text mission is not just providing that education that community, that mentorship, we want to get the corporate involved, we want to teach the corporate about D and I training the importance of diversity, different tactics to recruit uh so on and so forth. And and it's been so amazing, so inspirational, I love, I started working more in partnerships and having our monthly calls with partners because I love it. I love collaborating to >>recruit good peer group around you to accelerate and create more territory of awareness and impact more people can get their hands involved. And I think to me that's what I think you're starting to see that with podcasts and media people are starting to go direct to tell their story, apps are out there now as you mentioned. So, but I feel like we're on a crossover point coming soon, totally thinks it's different. Um, but it's still a >>lot more work to do a lot more. We just got the service. I know, I know you've just scratched the surface, but we're so excited to be here. Aws is a huge supporter thanks to Sandy carter and her team. Um, it's been an amazing experience. >>Sandy's got great vision, she takes risks. So she's actually got the Amazonian concept of experiment, try something double down if it works and that's great to see that you guys have extended that relationship with, with her and the team. I like this idea of the fellowship cohort model of the or that program, you have the mentorship program. I think that's super cool. Um, that's something I think will be very successful. >>Uh, it's been successful so far. We typically over sell our mentorship are mentee spots. Uh, we only have 500 spots and last one we had over 2300 like a crazy amount, so we know that our members are really hungry for it around the world. And we know it will just be as just as popular for the public sector. So >>what's next for you? What's the vision? What's the next step was events are coming back in person? We're here in person. >>Yeah, there's just so much going on. I wish I could clone myself and we're busting at the seams. And I think the things that are really exciting to me are being able to produce our programs internationally, specifically in developing countries. So we're working um we haven't made an official announcement yet or anything, but we are working on expanding in african countries with Aws. They're doing some efforts and making some movements there. So places like Cameroon Ghana Nigeria Egypt. Uh we are looking to create chapters there for Girls in Tech and then expand our programming. Uh we're also, as mentioned earlier, we're working a lot with corporations to provide DNA training. So, training about policies, Inclusive leadership. Making sure they have the tools and policies to succeed and for their employees to feel comfortable, safe and productive in their work environment >>is great to see you. Congratulations Girls in tech dot org. Yes. Is the U. R. L. Check it out a great mission, very successful. Making progress any stats you can throw out there, you can share. >>Yeah, of course, you >>wrap it up. >>Yeah. So right now, girls in tech has 58 active chapters in 38 countries with over 70,000 active members. And by the end of the year we will have close to 100 active members. So hopefully we'll see you next year and that number will double or triple sign >>up. Tell him johN sent, you know, don't say that because you won't get no. Great to see you. >>Thank you. Nice to see you too. Thanks so >>much, john. Great to have you on cube coverage here at AWS public Sector summit in Washington, D. C. Is a live event. Were face to face. We had some remote guests. It's a hybrid event. Everything is being streamed. I'm john Kerry with the cube. Thanks for watching. Mhm. Mhm

>>Welcome back to the cubes coverage of AWS public sector summit live in Washington D. C. A face to face event were on the ground here is to keep coverage. I'm john Kerry, your hosts got two great guests. Both cuba alumni Shannon Kellogg VP of public policy for the Americas and john would ceo tell us congratulations on some announcement on stage and congressional john being a public company. Last time I saw you in person, you are private. Now your I. P. O. Congratulations >>totally virtually didn't meet one investor, lawyer, accountant or banker in person. It's all done over zoom. What's amazing. >>We'll go back to that and a great great to see you had great props here earlier. You guys got some good stuff going on in the policy side, a core max on stage talking about this Virginia deal. Give us the update. >>Yeah. Hey thanks john, it's great to be back. I always like to be on the cube. Uh, so we made an announcement today regarding our economic impact study, uh, for the commonwealth of Virginia. And this is around the amazon web services business and our presence in Virginia or a WS as we all, uh, call, uh, amazon web services. And um, basically the data that we released today shows over the last decade the magnitude of investment that we're making and I think reflects just the overall investments that are going into Virginia in the data center industry of which john and I have been very involved with over the years. But the numbers are quite um, uh, >>just clever. This is not part of the whole H. 20. H. Q. Or whatever they call HQ >>To HQ two. It's so Virginia Amazon is investing uh in Virginia as part of our HQ two initiative. And so Arlington Virginia will be the second headquarters in the U. S. In addition to that, AWS has been in Virginia for now many years, investing in both data center infrastructure and also other corporate facilities where we house AWS employees uh in other parts of Virginia, particularly out in what's known as the dullest technology corridor. But our data centers are actually spread throughout three counties in Fairfax County, Loudoun County in Prince William County. >>So this is the maxim now. So it wasn't anything any kind of course this is Virginia impact. What was, what did he what did he announce? What did he say? >>Yeah. So there were a few things that we highlighted in this economic impact study. One is that over the last decade, if you can believe it, we've invested $35 billion 2020 alone. The AWS investment in construction and these data centers. uh it was actually $1.3 billion 2020. And this has created over 13,500 jobs in the Commonwealth of Virginia. So it's a really great story of investment and job creation and many people don't know John in this Sort of came through in your question too about HQ two, But aws itself has over 8000 employees in Virginia today. Uh, and so we've had this very significant presence for a number of years now in Virginia over the last, you know, 15 years has become really the cloud capital of the country, if not the world. Uh, and you see all this data center infrastructure that's going in there, >>John What's your take on this? You've been very active in the county there. Um, you've been a legend in the area and tech, you've seen this many years, you've been doing so I think the longest running company doing cyber my 31st year, 31st year. So you've been on the ground. What does this all mean to you? >>Well, you know, it goes way back to, it was roughly 2005 when I served on the Economic Development Commission, Loudon County as the chairman. And at the time we were the fastest-growing county in America in Loudon County. But our residential real property taxes were going up stratospherically because when you look at it, every dollar real property tax that came into residential, we lose $2 because we had to fund schools and police and fire departments and so forth. And we realized for every dollar of commercial real property tax that came in, We made $97 in profit, but only 13% of the money that was coming into the county was coming in commercially. So a small group got together from within the county to try and figure out what were the assets that we had to offer to companies like Amazon and we realized we had a lot of land, we had water and then we had, you know this enormous amount of dark fiber, unused fibre optic. And so basically the county made it appealing to companies like amazon to come out to Loudon County and other places in northern Virginia and the rest is history. If you look today, we're Loudon County is Loudon County generates a couple $100 million surplus every year. It's real property taxes have come down in in real dollars and the percentage of revenue that comes from commercials like 33 34%. That's really largely driven by the data center ecosystem that my friend over here Shannon was talking. So >>the formula basically is look at the assets resources available that may align with the kind of commercial entities that good. How's their domicile there >>that could benefit. >>So what about power? Because the data centers need power, fiber fiber is great. The main, the main >>power you can build power but the main point is is water for cooling. So I think I think we had an abundance of water which allowed us to build power sources and allowed companies like amazon to build their own power sources. So I think it was really a sort of a uh uh better what do they say? Better lucky than good. So we had a bunch of assets come together that helps. Made us, made us pretty lucky as a, as a region. >>Thanks area too. >>It is nice and >>john, it's really interesting because the vision that john Wood and several of his colleagues had on that economic development board has truly come through and it was reaffirmed in the numbers that we released this week. Um, aws paid $220 million 2020 alone for our data centers in those three counties, including loud >>so amazon's contribution to >>The county. $220 million 2020 alone. And that actually makes up 20% of overall property tax revenues in these counties in 2020. So, you know, the vision that they had 15 years ago, 15, 16 years ago has really come true today. And that's just reaffirmed in these numbers. >>I mean, he's for the amazon. So I'll ask you the question. I mean, there's a lot of like for misinformation going around around corporate reputation. This is clearly an example of the corporation contributing to the, to the society. >>No, no doubt. And you think >>About it like that's some good numbers, 20 million, 30 >>$5 million dollar capital investment. You know, 10, it's, what is it? 8000 9000 >>Jobs. jobs, a W. S. jobs in the Commonwealth alone. >>And then you look at the economic impact on each of those counties financially. It really benefits everybody at the end of the day. >>It's good infrastructure across the board. How do you replicate that? Not everyone's an amazon though. So how do you take the formula? What's your take on best practice? How does this rollout? And that's the amazon will continue to grow, but that, you know, this one company, is there a lesson here for the rest of us? >>I think I think all the data center companies in the cloud companies out there see value in this region. That's why so much of the internet traffic comes through northern Virginia. I mean it's I've heard 70%, I've heard much higher than that too. So I think everybody realizes this is a strategic asset at a national level. But I think the main point to bring out is that every state across America should be thinking about investments from companies like amazon. There are, there are really significant benefits that helps the entire community. So it helps build schools, police departments, fire departments, etcetera, >>jobs opportunities. What's the what's the vision though? Beyond data center gets solar sustainability. >>We do. We have actually a number of renewable energy projects, which I want to talk about. But just one other quick on the data center industry. So I also serve on the data center coalition which is a national organization of data center and cloud providers. And we look at uh states all over this country were very active in multiple states and we work with governors and state governments as they put together different frameworks and policies to incent investment in their states and Virginia is doing it right. Virginia has historically been very forward looking, very forward thinking and how they're trying to attract these data center investments. They have the right uh tax incentives in place. Um and then you know, back to your point about renewable energy over the last several years, Virginia is also really made some statutory changes and other policy changes to drive forward renewable energy in Virginia. Six years ago this week, john I was in a coma at county in Virginia, which is the eastern shore. It's a very rural area where we helped build our first solar farm amazon solar farm in Virginia in 2015 is when we made this announcement with the governor six years ago this week, it was 88 megawatts, which basically at the time quadruple the virginias solar output in one project. So since that first project we at Amazon have gone from building that one facility, quadrupling at the time, the solar output in Virginia to now we're by the end of 2023 going to be 1430 MW of solar power in Virginia with 15 projects which is the equivalent of enough power to actually Enough electricity to power 225,000 households, which is the equivalent of Prince William county Virginia. So just to give you the scale of what we're doing here in Virginia on renewable energy. >>So to me, I mean this comes down to not to put my opinion out there because I never hold back on the cube. It's a posture, we >>count on that. It's a >>posture issue of how people approach business. I mean it's the two schools of thought on the extreme true business. The government pays for everything or business friendly. So this is called, this is a modern story about friendly business kind of collaborative posture. >>Yeah, it's putting money to very specific use which has a very specific return in this case. It's for everybody that lives in the northern Virginia region benefits everybody. >>And these policies have not just attracted companies like amazon and data center building builders and renewable energy investments. These policies are also leading to rapid growth in the cybersecurity industry in Virginia as well. You know john founded his company decades ago and you have all of these cybersecurity companies now located in Virginia. Many of them are partners like >>that. I know john and I both have contributed heavily to a lot of the systems in place in America here. So congratulations on that. But I got to ask you guys, well I got you for the last minute or two cybersecurity has become the big issue. I mean there's a lot of these policies all over the place. But cyber is super critical right now. I mean, where's the red line Shannon? Where's you know, things are happening? You guys bring security to the table, businesses are out there fending for themselves. There's no militia. Where's the, where's the, where's the support for the commercial businesses. People are nervous >>so you want to try it? >>Well, I'm happy to take the first shot because this is and then we'll leave john with the last word because he is the true cyber expert. But I had the privilege of hosting a panel this morning with the director of the cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security agency at the department, Homeland Security, Jenness easterly and the agency is relatively new and she laid out a number of initiatives that the DHS organization that she runs is working on with industry and so they're leaning in their partnering with industry and a number of areas including, you know, making sure that we have the right information sharing framework and tools in place, so the government and, and we in industry can act on information that we get in real time, making sure that we're investing for the future and the workforce development and cyber skills, but also as we enter national cybersecurity month, making sure that we're all doing our part in cyber security awareness and training, for example, one of the things that are amazon ceo Andy Jassy recently announced as he was participating in a White house summit, the president biden hosted in late august was that we were going to at amazon make a tool that we've developed for information and security awareness for our employees free, available to the public. And in addition to that we announced that we were going to provide free uh strong authentication tokens for AWS customers as part of that announcement going into national cybersecurity months. So what I like about what this administration is doing is they're reaching out there looking for ways to work with industry bringing us together in these summits but also looking for actionable things that we can do together to make a difference. >>So my, my perspective echoing on some of Shannon's points are really the following. Uh the key in general is automation and there are three components to automation that are important in today's environment. One is cyber hygiene and education is a piece of that. The second is around mis attribution meaning if the bad guy can't see you, you can't be hacked. And the third one is really more or less around what's called attribution, meaning I can figure out actually who the bad guy is and then report that bad guys actions to the appropriate law enforcement and military types and then they take it from there >>unless he's not attributed either. So >>well over the basic point is we can't as industry hat back, it's illegal, but what we can do is provide the tools and methods necessary to our government counterparts at that point about information sharing, where they can take the actions necessary and try and find those bad guys. >>I just feel like we're not moving fast enough. Businesses should be able to hack back. In my opinion. I'm a hawk on this one item. So like I believe that because if people dropped on our shores with troops, the government will protect us. >>So your your point is directly taken when cyber command was formed uh before that as airlines seeing space physical domains, each of those physical domains have about 100 and $50 billion they spend per year when cyber command was formed, it was spending less than Jpmorgan chase to defend the nation. So, you know, we do have a ways to go. I do agree with you that there needs to be more uh flexibility given the industry to help help with the fight. You know, in this case. Andy Jassy has offered a couple of tools which are, I think really good strong tokens training those >>are all really good. >>We've been working with amazon for a long time, you know, ever since, uh, really, ever since the CIA embrace the cloud, which was sort of the shot heard around the world for cloud computing. We do the security compliance automation for that air gap region for amazon as well as other aspects >>were all needs more. Tell us faster, keep cranking up that software because tell you right now people are getting hit >>and people are getting scared. You know, the colonial pipeline hack that affected everybody started going wait a minute, I can't get gas. >>But again in this area of the line and jenny easterly said this this morning here at the summit is that this truly has to be about industry working with government, making sure that we're working together, you know, government has a role, but so does the private sector and I've been working cyber issues for a long time to and you know, kind of seeing where we are this year in this recent cyber summit that the president held, I really see just a tremendous commitment coming from the private sector to be an effective partner in securing the nation this >>full circle to our original conversation around the Virginia data that you guys are looking at the Loudon County amazon contribution. The success former is really commercial public sector. I mean, the government has to recognize that technology is now lingua franca for all things everything society >>well. And one quick thing here that segues into the fact that Virginia is the cloud center of the nation. Um uh the president issued a cybersecurity executive order earlier this year that really emphasizes the migration of federal systems into cloud in the modernization that jOHN has worked on, johN had a group called the Alliance for Digital Innovation and they're very active in the I. T. Modernization world and we remember as well. Um but you know, the federal government is really emphasizing this, this migration to cloud and that was reiterated in that cybersecurity executive order >>from the, well we'll definitely get you guys back on the show, we're gonna say something. >>Just all I'd say about about the executive order is that I think one of the main reasons why the president thought was important is that the legacy systems that are out there are mainly written on kobol. There aren't a lot of kids graduating with degrees in COBOL. So COBOL was designed in 1955. I think so I think it's very imperative that we move has made these workloads as we can, >>they teach it anymore. >>They don't. So from a security point of view, the amount of threats and vulnerabilities are through the >>roof awesome. Well john I want to get you on the show our next cyber security event. You have you come into a fireside chat and unpack all the awesome stuff that you're doing. But also the challenges. Yes. And there are many, you have to keep up the good work on the policy. I still say we got to remove that red line and identified new rules of engagement relative to what's on our sovereign virtual land. So a whole nother Ballgame, thanks so much for coming. I appreciate it. Thank you appreciate it. Okay, cute coverage here at eight of public sector seven Washington john ferrier. Thanks for watching. Mhm. Mhm.

(upbeat music) >> Welcome to the Q3 AWS Startup Showcase. I'm Lisa Martin. I'm pleased to welcome Knox Anderson, the VP of Product Management, from Sysdig, to the program. Knox, welcome. >> Thanks for having me, Lisa. >> Excited to uncover Sysdig. Talk to me about what you guys do. >> So Sysdig, we are a secure DevOps platform, and we're going to really allow customers to secure the entire lifecycle of an application from source to production. So give you the ability to scan IAC for security best practices, misconfiguration, help you facilitate things like image scanning as part of the build process, and then monitor runtime behavior for compliance or threats, and then finish up with incident response, so that you can respond to and recover from incidents quickly. >> What are some of the main challenges that you're solving and have those changed in the last 18 months? >> I'd say the main challenge people face today is a skills gap with Kubernetes. Everyone wants to use Kubernetes, but the amount of people that can operate those platforms is really difficult. And then getting visibility into the apps, that's running in those environments is also a huge challenge. So with Sysdig, we provide just an easy way to get your Kubernetes clusters instrumented, and then provide strong coverage for threat detection, compliance, and then observability for those environments. >> One of the things that we've seen in the last 18 months is a big change in the front landscape. So, I'm very curious to understand how you're helping customers navigate some of the major dynamics that are going on. >> Yeah, I'd say, the adoption of cloud and the adoption of Kubernetes have, have changed drastically. I'd say every single week, there's a different environment that has a cryptomining container. That's spun up in there. Obviously, if the price of a Bitcoin and things like that go up, there's more and more people that want to steal your resources for mining. So, we're seeing attacks of people pulling public images for Docker hub onto their clusters, and there's a couple of different ways that we'll help customers see that. We have default Falco rules, better vetted by the open source community to detect cryptomining. And then we also see a leading indicator of this as some of the metrics we, we collect for resource abuse and those types of things where you'll see the CPU spike, and then can easily identify some workload that could have been compromised and is now using your resources to mine Bitcoin or some other alt-coin. >> Give me a picture of a Sysdig customer. Help me understand the challenges they had, why they chose you and some of the results that they're achieving. >> Yeah, I used to say that we were very focused on financial services, but now everyone is doing Kubernetes. Really where we get introduced to an organization is they have their two or three clusters that are now in production and I'm going through a compliance audit, or it's now a big enough part of my estate that I need to get security for this Kubernetes and cloud environment. And, so we come in to really provide kind of the end-to-end tools that you would need for that compliance audit or to meet your internal security guidelines. So they'll usually have us integrated within their Dev pipelines so that developers are getting actionable data about what they need to do to make sure their workloads are as secure as possible before they get deployed to production. So that's part of that shift, left mindset. And then the second main point is around runtime detection. And that's where we started off by building our open source tool Falco, which is now a CNCF project. And that gives people visibility into the common things like, who's accessing my environment? Are there any suspicious connections? Are my workloads doing what they expected? And, those types of things. >> Since the threat landscape has changed so much in the last year and a half, as I mentioned. Are the conversations you're having with customers changing? Is this something at the C-suite or the board level from a security and a visibility standpoint? >> I think containers and Kubernetes and cloud adoption under the big umbrella of digital transformation is definitely at board level objective. And then, that starts to trickle down to, okay, we're taking this app from my on-prem data center, it's now in the cloud and it has to meet the twenty security mandates have been meeting for the last fifteen years. What am I going to do? And so definitely there's practitioners that are coming in and picking tools for different environments. But, I would definitely say that cloud adoption and Kubernetes adoption are something that everyone is trying to accelerate as quickly as possible. >> We've seen a lot of acceleration of cloud adoption in the last eighteen months here, right? Now, something that I want to get into with you is the recent executive order, the White House getting involved. How is this changing the cybersecurity discussion across industries? >> I really like how they kind of brought better awareness to some of the cybersecurity best practices. It's aligned with a lot of the NIST guidance that's come out before, but now cloud providers are picking, private sector, public sector are all looking at this as kind of a new set of standards that we need to pay attention to. So, the fact that they call out things like unauthorized access, you can look at that with Kubernetes audit logs, cloud trail, a bunch of different things. And then, the other term that I think you're going to hear a lot of, at least within the federal community and the tech community, over the next year, is this thing called an 'S bomb', which is for, which is a software bill of materials. And, it's basically saying, "as I'm delivering software to some end user, how can I keep track of everything that's in it?" A lot of this probably came out of solar winds where now you need to have a better view of what are all the different components, how are those being tracked over time? What's the life cycle of that? And, so the fact that things like S bombs are being explicitly called out is definitely going to raise a lot of the best practices as organizations move. And then the last point, money always talks. So, when you see AWS, Azure, Google all saying, we're putting 10, 10 billion plus dollars behind this for training and tooling and building more secure software, that's going to raise the cybersecurity industry as a whole. And so it's definitely driving a lot of investment and growth in the market. >> It's validation. Absolutely. Talk to me about some of the, maybe some of the leading edges that you're seeing in private sector versus public sector of folks and organizations who are going alright, we've got to change. We've got to adopt some of these mandates because the landscape is changing dramatically. >> I think Kubernetes at auction goes hand in hand with that, where it's a declarative system. So, the way you define your infrastructure and source code repost is the same way that runs in production. So, things like auditing are much easier, being able to control what's in your environment. And then containers, it's much easier to package it once and then deploy it wherever you want. So container adoption really makes it easier to be more secure. It's a little tricky where normally like you move to something that's bleeding edge, and a lot of things become much harder. And there's operational parts that are hard about Kubernetes. But, from a pure security perspective, the apps are meant to do one thing. It should be easy to profile them. And so definitely I think the adoption of more modern technology and things like cloud services and Kubernetes is a way to be more secure as you move into these environments. >> Right? Imagine a way to be more secure and faster as well. I want to dig in now to the Sysdig AWS partnership. Talk to me about that. What do you guys do together? >> AWS is a great partner. We, as a company, wouldn't be able to deliver our software without AWS. So we run our SAS services on Amazon. We're in multiple regions around the globe. So we can deliver that to people in Europe and meet all the GDPR requirements and those kinds of things. So from a, a vendor partnership perspective, it's great there. And then on a co-development side, we've had a lot of success and a fun time working with the Fargate team, Fargate is a service on Amazon, that makes it easier for you to run your containers without worrying about the underlying compute. And so they faced the challenge about a year and a half ago where customers didn't want to deploy on Fargate because they couldn't do deeper detection and incident response. So we worked together to figure out different hooks that Amazon could provide to open source tools like Falco or commercial products like Sysdig. So then customers could meet those incident response needs, and those detection needs for Fargate. And really, we're seeing more and more Fargated option as kind of more and more companies are moving to the cloud. And, you don't want to worry about managing infrastructure, a service like Fargate is a great place to get started there. >> Talk to me a little bit about your joint. Go to mark. Is there a joint go-to-market? I should say. >> Yeah, we sell through the AWS marketplace. So customers can procure Sysdig software directly though AWS. It'll end up on your AWS bill. You can kind of take some of your committed spend and draw it down there. So that's a great way. And then we also work closely with different solutions architects teams, or people who are more boots on the ground with different AWS customers trying to solve those problems like PCI-compliance and Fargate, or just building a detection and response strategy for EKS and those types of things. >> Let's kind of shift gears now and talk about the role of open source, in security. What is Sysdig's perspective? >> Yeah, so the platform, open source is a platform, is something that driving more and more adoption these days. So, if you look at like the fundamental platform like Kubernetes, it has a lot of security capabilities baked in there's admission controllers, there's network policies. And so you used to buy a firewall or something like that. But with Kubernetes, you can enforce services, service communication, you put a service mesh on top of that, and you can almost pretend it's a WAF sometimes. So open source is building a lot of fundamental platform level security, and by default. And then the second thing is, we're also seeing a rise of just open source tools that traditionally had always come from commercial products. So, there's things like OPA, which handle authorization, which is becoming a standard. And then there's also projects like Falco, that provide an easy way for people to do IDS use cases and auditing use cases in these environments. >> Last question for you. Talk to me about some of the things that you're most excited about. That's coming down here. We are at, this is the, our Q3 AWS Startup Showcase, but what are some of the things that you're most excited about in terms of being able to help customers resolve some of those challenges even faster? >> I think there's more and more Kubernetes standardization that's going on. So a couple of weeks ago, Amazon released EKS Anywhere, which allows companies who still have an on-prem footprint to run Kubernetes locally the same way that they would run it in the cloud. That's only going to increase cloud adoption, because once you get used to just doing something that matches the cloud, the next question you're going to answer is, okay, how fast can I move that to the cloud? So that's something I'm definitely really excited about. And then, also, the different, or AWS is putting a lot of investment behind tools like security hub. And we're doing a lot of native integrations where we can publish different findings and events into security hubs, so that different practitioners who are used to working in the AWS console can remediate those quickly without ever kind of leading that native AWS ecosystem. And that's a trend I expect to see more and more of over time, as well. >> So a lot of co-innovation coming up with AWS. Where can folks go to learn more information? Is there a specific call to action that you'd like to point them to? >> The Sysdig blog is one of the best sources that I can recommend. We have a great mixture of technical practitioner content, some just one-oh-one level, it's, I'm starting with container security. What do I need to know? So I'd say we do a good job of touching the different areas and then really the best way to learn about anything is to get hands-on. We have a SAS trial. Most of the security vendors have something behind a paywall. You can come in, get started with us for free and start uncovering what's actually running in your infrastructure. >> Knox, let's talk about the secure DevOps movement. As we see that DevOps is becoming more and more common, how is it changing the role of security? >> Yeah, so a lot of traditional security requirements are now getting baked into what a DevOps team does day-to-day. So the DevOps team is doing things like implementing IAC. So your infrastructure is code, and no changes are manually made to environments anymore. It's all done by a Terraform file, a cloud formation, some code that's representing what your infrastructure looks at. And so now security teams, or sorry, these DevOps teams have to bake security into that process. So they're scanning their IAC, making sure there's not elevated privileges. It's not doing something, it shouldn't. DevOps teams, also, traditionally, now are managing your CI/CD Pipeline. And so that's where they're integrating scanning tools in as well, to go in and give actionable feedback to the developers around things like if there's a critical vulnerability with a fix, I'm not going to push that to my registry. So it can be deployed to production. That's something a developer needs to go in and change. So really a lot of these kind of actions and the day-to-day work is driven by corporate security requirements, but then DevOps has the freedom to go in and implement it however they want. And this is where Sysdig adds a lot of value because we provide both monitoring and security capabilities through a single platform. So that DevOps teams can go into one product, see what they need for capacity planning, chargebacks, health monitoring, and then in the same interface, go in and see, okay, is that Kubernetes cluster meeting my SOC 2 controls? How many images have my developers submitted to be scanned over the past day? And all those kinds of things without needing to learn to how to use four or five different tools? >> It sounds to me like a cultural shift almost in terms of the DevOps, the developers working with security. How does Sysdig help with that? If that's a cultural shift? >> Yeah, it's definitely a cultural shift. I see some people in the community getting angry when they see oh we're hiring for a Head of DevOps. They're like DevOps is a movement, not a person. So would totally agree with that there, I think the way we help is if you're troubleshooting an issue, if you're trying to uncover what's in your environment and you are comparing results across five different products, it always turns into kind of a point the finger, a blame game. There's a bunch of confusion. And so what we think, how we help that cultural shift, is by bringing different teams and different use cases together and doing that through a common lens of data, user workflows, integrations, and those types of things. >> Excellent. Knox, thank you for joining me on the program today, sharing with us, Sysdig, what you do, your partnership with AWS and how customers can get started. We appreciate your information. - Thank you. For Knox Anderson. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the cube.

(upbeat music) >> Hi everybody, we're here in downtown Seattle covering AWS storage day. My name is Dave Vellante with the Cube, and we're really excited. We're going to talk about rethinking data protection in the 2020s. I'm here with Nancy Wong, who is the general manager of AWS backup, and Satish Lakshmanan, the director of storage business development at AWS. Folks, welcome. Good to see you again. So let's talk about the evolution of data protection. You've got three major disruptors going on. There's obviously the data explosion. We talk about that all the time, but there's cloud has changed the way people are thinking about data protection and now you've got cyber. What's AWS's point of view on all this. >> Great question, Dave. You know, in my role as the global head of storage business development and solution architecture for storage, I have the privilege of working with customers all around the globe, in every geography and every segment. And we recently talked to thousands of customers and we did a survey for about 5,000 customers. And many of them told us that they expect to see a ransomware attack once every 11 seconds. So it's top of mind for almost every customer so much so that if you remember earlier this year, the white house issued an executive order, you know, making the nation aware of across public and private sector about cybersecurity and the need for, for, for us to be prepared. Customers as a result, largely think of not only ransomware protection, but also recovery. And they have largely allocated budgets across every geography to make sure that they're well protected. And in the, in the event of an attack, they can recover from it. That's where Nancy's, you know, data protection services and backup services come into play. And maybe she'll add a few comments about how she approaches it from a technology perspective. >> Yeah, sure. Thanks, Satish yeah, as a general manager of AWS backup and our data protection services, it's really my team and my charter to help our customers centralize, automate, and also protect themselves from attacks like ransomware. Right? And so for example, you know, across our many services today we offer AWS backup as a secondary data collection and management across our many AWS regions and also across the aid of many AWS accounts that a single customer must manage, right. And if you recall having multiple copies of your data exist in backups is a core part of any customers ransomware protection strategy. And lastly, I just want to say something that we just launched recently called AWS backup audit manager also helps you operationalize and monitor your backups against any ransomware attack. >> So, the adversary, obviously, as we know, was well-equipped and they're quite sophisticated. And anybody who has inside access can become a ransomware attacker because of things like ransomware as a service. So, what are you specifically doing to address ransomware? >> Yeah. So, in talking to several thousand of our customers, what we have learned is customers are typically vulnerable in one or more of three scenarios, right? The first scenario is when they're not technically ready. What that means is either their software patches are not up to date, or they have too many manual processes that really prevent them from being prepared for defending against an attack. The second is typically around a lack of awareness. These are situations where IT administrators leveraging cloud-based services are recognizing that, or not recognizing per se, that they're easy to instances, Lambda instances have public access and same applies to S3 buckets. And the third is lack of governance and governance based practices. The way we are educating our customers training in enabling them and empowering them, because it's a shared security model, is really through our well-architected framework. That's the way we shared best practices that we have learned across all our customers, across our industries. And we enable it and empower them to not only identify areas of vulnerability, but also be able to recover in the event of an attack. Nancy. >> Yeah, and to add to that right, our team, and now my team and I, for example, watch every ransomware incident and because it really informs the way that we plan our product roadmap and deliver features that help our customers protect, detect, and also recover from ransomware. So there's an ebook out there, suggest you go check it out, of securing your cloud environment against ransomware attacks. And aside from the technical maintenance suggestions that Satish provided, as well as the security awareness suggestions, there's really two things that I usually tell customers who come to me with ransomware questions. Which is one, right, don't rely on the good will of your ransomware attacker to restore your data. Because I mean, just studies show over 90% of ransom payers actually don't successfully recover all of their data because, hey, what if they don't give you the full decryption utility? Or what if your backups are not restorable? Right? So, rather than relying on that good will, make sure that you have a plan in place where you can recover from backups in case you get ransomed. Right? And two, is make sure that in addition to just taking backups, which obviously, you know, as a GM of AWS backup, I would highly recommend you do, right. Is make sure that those backups are actually restorable, right? Do game day testing, make sure that it's configured properly because you'd be surprised at the, just the number and the sheer percentage of customers who when, let's say the attack happens, actually find that they don't have a good set of data to recover their businesses from. >> I believe it. Backup is, one thing as they say, recovery is everything. So you've got the AWS well-architected framework. How does that fit in, along with the AWS data protection services into this whole ransomware discussion? >> Yeah, absolutely. You know, the AWS wall architected framework actually has four design approaches that I usually share with customers that are very relevant to the ransomware conversation. And one is, you know, anticipate where that ransomware attack may come from. Right? And two, make sure that you write down your approaches whereby you can solve for that ransomware attack, right? Three, just like I advocate my teams and customers to do, right. Then look back on what you've written down as your approach and reflect back on what are the best practices or lessons learned that you can gain from that exercise. And make sure as part four, is you consistently plan game days where you can go through these various scenario tests or ransomware game day attacks. And lastly, just as a best practice is ransomware recovery and protection isn't just the role of IT Professionals like us, right. It's really important to also include HR, professional, legal professionals. Frankly, anyone in a business who might come and be compromised by ransomware attack, and make sure that they're involved in your response. And so Satish, I'd love to hear as well, how you communicate to customers and what best practices you offer them. >> Yeah, thanks Nancy. I think in addition to the fantastic points you made, Nancy, Dave, the well architected framework has been built on eight to 10 years worth of customer engagements across all segments and verticals. And essentially it's a set of shared best practices, tools, training, and methodology that we, you know, exchange with customers in order to help them be more prepared to fight ransomware attacks and be able to recover from them. Recently, there've been some enhancements made where we have put industry or use case specific lenses to the well architected framework. For example, for customers looking to build IOT applications, customers who are trying to use server less and Lambda functions, customers who may be within the financial services or healthcare life sciences, where to go, looking to understand best practices from other people who've implemented, you know, some of the technologies that Nancy talked about. In addition, as I talked about earlier, training and enablement is extremely critical to make sure that if companies don't have the skillset, we are basically giving them the skillset to be able to defend. So we do a lot of hands-on labs. Lastly, the well architected framework tool has been integrated into the console, and it gives customers who are essentially managing the workloads, the ability to look at access permissions, ability to look at what risks they have through malware and ransomware detection techniques. Machine learning capability is built into all the services that are native to AWS that allow them to then react to them. If companies don't have the skills, we have a vast network of partners who can help them basically implement the right technologies. And they can always reach out to our technical account manager for additional information as well. >> I love the best practice discussion. For customers, it's a journey. I mean, CSOs tell us their one problem is lack of talent and so they need help. So, last question is what can people expect from AWS? You're the experts. In particular, how you can help them recover from ransomware? >> Yeah, and that conversation is ever evolving, right? As hackers get more sophisticated then clearly we have to get more sophisticated as well. And so one of our mental models that we often share with customers is defense in depth, right? So if you consider all of the layers, including all of the constructs that exist natively on AWS, right? The first layer is through identity access management constructs. So building a trust radius around your workloads, around your applications, whereby you can deny permissions or access permissions to individuals who are not authorized to access your mission critical applications, right. Then beyond that first layer of defense, the second layer should be automated monitoring or observability. For example, if individuals were to penetrate within your security perimeter, and often times I, you know, that could be done through a delayed response where it gives your CSO or your security operations team, the ability to react to such a unauthorized access, for example. And so the third line of defense is if someone were to penetrate both first layer, as well as the second layer, is actually through backups. And this is where it goes back to what I was mentioning earlier is make sure that your backups are ready and able to be restored and have the RTO and SLA guarantees that help your business remain functional even after an attack. >> Excellent. Guys, we got to go. I love that, zero trust layer defenses, got to have the observability in the analytics and then the last resort RTO, and of course, RPO. Guys, thanks so much, really appreciate your insights. >> Good to see you. >> Thank you for watching. Keep it right there for more great content from AWS storage day. (upbeat music)

>> Welcome to this Cube Conversation, I'm Lisa Martin. I'm joined by Derek Manky next, the Chief Security Insights and Global Threat Alliances at Fortiguard Labs. Derek, welcome back to the program. >> Hey, it's great to be here again. A lot of stuff's happened since we last talked. >> So Derek, one of the things that was really surprising from this year's Global Threat Landscape Report is a 10, more than 10x increase in ransomware. What's going on? What have you guys seen? >> Yeah so this is massive. We're talking over a thousand percent over a 10x increase. This has been building Lisa, So this has been building since December of 2020. Up until then we saw relatively low high watermark with ransomware. It had taken a hiatus really because cyber criminals were going after COVID-19 lawyers and doing some other things at the time. But we did see a seven fold increase in December, 2020. That has absolutely continued this year into a momentum up until today, it continues to build, never subsided. Now it's built to this monster, you know, almost 11 times increase from, from what we saw back last December. And the reason, what's fueling this is a new verticals that cyber criminals are targeting. We've seen the usual suspects like telecommunication, government in position one and two. But new verticals that have risen up into this third and fourth position following are MSSP, and this is on the heels of the Kaseya attack of course, that happened in 2021, as well as operational technology. There's actually four segments, there's transportation, automotive, manufacturing, and then of course, energy and utility, all subsequent to each other. So there's a huge focus now on, OT and MSSP for cyber criminals. >> One of the things that we saw last year this time, was that attackers had shifted their focus away from enterprise infrastructure devices, to home networks and consumer grade products. And now it looks like they're focusing on both. Are you seeing that? >> Yes, absolutely. In two ways, so first of all, again, this is a kill chain that we talk about. They have to get a foothold into the infrastructure, and then they can load things like ransomware on there. They can little things like information stealers as an example. The way they do that is through botnets. And what we reported in this in the first half of 2021 is that Mirai, which is about a two to three-year old botnet now is number one by far, it was the most prevalent botnet we've seen. Of course, the thing about Mirai is that it's an IOT based botnet. So it sits on devices, sitting inside consumer networks as an example, or home networks, right. And that can be a big problem. So that's the targets that cyber criminals are using. The other thing that we saw that was interesting was that one in four organizations detected malvertising. And so what that means Lisa, is that cyber criminals are shifting their tactics from going just from cloud-based or centralized email phishing campaigns to web born threats, right. So they're infecting sites, waterhole attacks, where, you know, people will go to read their daily updates as an example of things that they do as part of their habits. They're getting sent links to these sites that when they go to it, it's actually installing those botnets onto those systems, so they can get a foothold. We've also seen scare tactics, right. So they're doing new social engineering lures, pretending to be human resource departments. IT staff and personnel, as an example, with popups through the web browser that look like these people to fill out different forms and ultimately get infected on home devices. >> Well, the home device use is proliferate. It continues because we are still in this work from home, work from anywhere environment. Is that, you think a big factor in this increase from 7x to nearly 11x? >> It is a factor, absolutely. Yeah, like I said, it's also, it's a hybrid of sorts. So a lot of that activity is going to the MSSP angle, like I said to the OT. And to those new verticals, which by the way, are actually even larger than traditional targets in the past, like finance and banking, is actually lower than that as an example. So yeah, we are seeing a shift to that. And like I said, that's, further backed up from what we're seeing on with the, the botnet activity specifically with Mirai too. >> Are you seeing anything in terms of the ferocity, we know that the volume is increasing, are they becoming more ferocious, these attacks? >> Yeah, there is a lot of aggression out there, certainly from, from cyber criminals. And I would say that the velocity is increasing, but the amount, if you look at the cyber criminal ecosystem, the stakeholders, right, that is increasing, it's not just one or two campaigns that we're seeing. Again, we're seeing, this has been a record cases year, almost every week we've seen one or two significant, cyber security events that are happening. That is a dramatic shift compared to last year or even, two years ago too. And this is because, because the cyber criminals are getting deeper pockets now. They're becoming more well-funded and they have business partners, affiliates that they're hiring, each one of those has their own methodology, and they're getting paid big. We're talking up to 70 to 80% commission, just if they actually successfully, infect someone that pays for the ransom as an example. And so that's really, what's driving this too. It's a combination of this kind of perfect storm as we call it, right. You have this growing attack surface, work from home environments and footholds into those networks, but you have a whole bunch of other people now on the bad side that are orchestrating this and executing the attacks too. >> So what can organizations do to start- to slow down or limit the impacts of this growing ransomware as a service? >> Yeah, great question. Everybody has their role in this, I say, right? So if we look at, from a strategic point of view, we have to disrupt cyber crime, how do we do that? It starts with the kill chain. It starts with trying to build resilient networks. So things like ZTA and a zero trust network access, SD-WAN as an example for protecting that WAN infrastructure. 'Cause that's where the threats are floating to, right. That's how they get the initial footholds. So anything we can do on the preventative side, making networks more resilient, also education and training is really key. Things like multi-factor authentication are all key to this because if you build that preventatively and it's a relatively small investment upfront Lisa, compared to the collateral damage that can happen with these ransomware paths, the risk is very high. That goes a long way, it also forces the attackers to- it slows down their velocity, it forces them to go back to the drawing board and come up with a new strategy. So that is a very important piece, but there's also things that we're doing in the industry. There's some good news here, too, that we can talk about because there's things that we can actually do apart from that to really fight cyber crime, to try to take the cyber criminals offline too. >> All right, hit me with the good news Derek. >> Yeah, so a couple of things, right. If we look at the botnet activity, there's a couple of interesting things in there. Yes, we are seeing Mirai rise to the top right now, but we've seen big problems of the past that have gone away or come back, not as prolific as before. So two specific examples, EMOTET, that was one of the most prolific botnets that was out there for the past two to three years, there is a take-down that happened in January of this year. It's still on our radar but immediately after that takedown, it literally dropped to half of the activity it had before. And it's been consistently staying at that low watermark now at that half percentage since then, six months later. So that's very good news showing that the actual coordinated efforts that were getting involved with law enforcement, with our partners and so forth, to take down these are actually hitting their supply chain where it hurts, right. So that's good news part one. Trickbot was another example, this is also a notorious botnet, takedown attempt in Q4 of 2020. It went offline for about six months in our landscape report, we actually show that it came back online in about June this year. But again, it came back weaker and now the form is not nearly as prolific as before. So we are hitting them where it hurts, that's that's the really good news. And we're able to do that through new, what I call high resolution intelligence that we're looking at too. >> Talk to me about that high resolution intelligence, what do you mean by that? >> Yeah, so this is cutting edge stuff really, gets me excited, keeps me up at night in a good way. 'Cause we we're looking at this under the microscope, right. It's not just talking about the what, we know there's problems out there, we know there's ransomware, we know there's a botnets, all these things, and that's good to know, and we have to know that, but we're able to actually zoom in on this now and look at- So we, for the first time in the threat landscape report, we've published TTPs, the techniques, tactics, procedures. So it's not just talking about the what, it's talking about the how, how are they doing this? What's their preferred method of getting into systems? How are they trying to move from system to system? And exactly how are they doing that? What's the technique? And so we've highlighted that, it's using the MITRE attack framework TTP, but this is real time data. And it's very interesting, so we're clearly seeing a very heavy focus from cyber criminals and attackers to get around security controls, to do defense innovation, to do privilege escalation on systems. So in other words, trying to be common administrator so they can take full control of the system. As an example, lateral movement, there's still a preferred over 75%, 77 I believe percent of activity we observed from malware was still trying to move from system to system, by infecting removable media like thumb drives. And so it's interesting, right. It's a brand new look on these, a fresh look, but it's this high resolution, is allowing us to get a clear image, so that when we come to providing strategic guides and solutions in defense, and also even working on these takedown efforts, allows us to be much more effective. >> So one of the things that you said in the beginning was we talked about the increase in ransomware from last year to this year. You said, I don't think that we've hit that ceiling yet, but are we at an inflection point? Data showing that we're at an inflection point here with being able to get ahead of this? >> Yeah, I would like to believe so, there is still a lot of work to be done unfortunately. If we look at, there's a recent report put out by the Department of Justice in the US saying that, the chance of a criminal to be committing a crime, to be caught in the US is somewhere between 55 to 60%, the same chance for a cyber criminal lies less than 1%, well 0.5%. And that's the bad news, the good news is we are making progress in sending messages back and seeing results. But I think there's a long road ahead. So, there's a lot of work to be done, We're heading in the right direction. But like I said, they say, it's not just about that. It's, everyone has their role in this, all the way down to organizations and end users. If they're doing their part of making their networks more resilient through this, through all of the, increasing their security stack and strategy. That is also really going to stop the- really ultimately the profiteering that wave, 'cause that continues to build too. So it's a multi-stakeholder effort and I believe we are getting there, but I continue to still, I continue to expect the ransomware wave to build in the meantime. >> On the end-user front, that's always one of the vectors that we talk about, it's people, right? There's so much sophistication in these attacks that even security folks and experts are nearly fooled by them. What are some of the things that you're saying that governments are taking action on some recent announcements from the White House, but other organizations like Interpol, the World Economic Forum, Cyber Crime Unit, what are some of the things that governments are doing that you're seeing that as really advantageous here for the good guys? >> Yeah, so absolutely. This is all about collaboration. Governments are really focused on public, private sector collaboration. So we've seen this across the board with Fortiguard Labs, we're on the forefront with this, and it's really exciting to see that, it's great. There's always been a lot of will to work together, but we're starting to see action now, right? Interpol is a great example, they recently this year, held a high level forum on ransomware. I actually spoke and was part of that forum as well too. And the takeaways from that event were that we, this was a message to the world, that public, private sector we need. They actually called ransomware a pandemic, which is what I've referred to it as before in itself as well too. Because it is becoming that much of a problem and that we need to work together to be able to create action, action against this, measure success, become more strategic. The World Economic Forum were leading a project called the Partnership Against Cyber Crime Threat Map Project. And this is to identify, not just all this stuff we talked about in the threat landscape report, but also looking at, things like, how many different ransomware gangs are there out there. What do the money laundering networks look like? It's that side of the supply chain to map out, so that we can work together to actually take down those efforts. But it really is about this collaborative action that's happening and it's innovation and there's R&D behind this as well, that's coming to the table to be able to make it impactful. >> So it sounds to me like ransomware is no longer a- for any organization in any industry you were talking about the expansion of verticals. It's no longer a, "If this happens to us," but a matter of when and how do we actually prepare to remediate, prevent any damage? >> Yeah, absolutely, how do we prepare? The other thing is that there's a lot of, with just the nature of cyber, there's a lot of connectivity, there's a lot of different, it's not just always siloed attacks, right. We saw that with Colonial obviously, this year where you have attacks on IT, that can affect consumers, right down to consumers, right. And so for that very reason, everybody's infected in this. it truly is a pandemic I believe on its own. But the good news is, there's a lot of smart people on the good side and that's what gets me excited. Like I said, we're working with a lot of these initiatives. And like I said, some of those examples I called up before, we're actually starting to see measurable progress against this as well. >> That's good, well never a dull day I'm sure in your world. Any thing that you think when we talk about this again, in a few more months of the second half of 2021, anything you predict crystal ball wise that we're going to see? >> Yeah, I think that we're going to continue to see more of the, I mean, ransomware, absolutely, more of the targeted attacks. That's been a shift this year that we've seen, right. So instead of just trying to infect everybody for ransom, as an example, going after some of these new, high profile targets, I think we're going to continue to see that happening from the ransomware side and because of that, the average costs of these data breaches, I think they're going to continue to increase, it already did in 2021 as an example, if we look at the cost of a data breach report, it's gone up to about $5 million US on average, I think that's going to continue to increase as well too. And then the other thing too is, I think that we're going to start to see more, more action on the good side like we talked about. There was already a record amount of takedowns that have happened, five takedowns that happened in January. There were arrests made to these business partners, that was also new. So I'm expecting to see a lot more of that coming out towards the end of the year too. >> So as the challenges persist, so do the good things that are coming out of this. Where can folks go to get this first half 2021 Global Threat Landscape? What's the URL that they can go to? >> Yeah, you can check it out, all of our updates and blogs including the threat landscape reports on blog.fortinet.com under our threat research category. >> Excellent, I read that blog, it's fantastic. Derek, always a pleasure to talk to you. Thanks for breaking this down for us, showing what's going on. Both the challenging things, as well as the good news. I look forward to our next conversation. >> Absolutely, it was great chatting with you again, Lisa. Thanks. >> Likewise for Derek Manky, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching this Cube Conversation. (exciting music)

>>Welcome back to HPD discovered 2021. The virtual edition. My name is Dave Volonte and you're watching the cubes continuous coverage of H. P. S. Big customer event. Patrick Moorehead is here of moor insights and strategy is the number one analyst in the research analyst. Business. Patrick. Always a pleasure. Great to see you, >>David. Great to see you too. And I know you're you're up there fighting for that number one spot to. It's great to see you and it's great to see you in the meetings that were in. But it's even more fun to be here on the cube. I love to be on the cube and every once in a while you'll even call me a friend of the cube, >>unquestionably my friend and so and I can't wait second half. I mean you're traveling right now. We're headed to Barcelona to mobile World Congress later on this month. So so we're gonna we're gonna see each other face to face this year. 100%. So looking forward to that. So you know, let's get into it. Um you know, before we get into H. P. E. Let's talk a little bit about what you're seeing in the market. We've got, you know, we we finally, it feels like the on prem guys are finally getting their cloud act together. Um it's maybe taken a while, but we're seeing as a service models emerge. I think it's resonating with customers. The clearly not everything is moving to the cloud. There's this hybrid model emerging. Multi cloud is real despite what, you know, >>some some >>cloud players want to say. And then there's this edges like jump ball, what are you seeing in the marketplace? >>Yeah. Davis, as exciting as ever in. Just to put in perspective, I mean the public cloud has been around for about 10 years and still only 20% around 20% of the data in 20% of the applications are there now will be a very important ones and I'm certainly not a public cloud denier, I never have been, but there are some missing pieces that need to come together. And you know, even five years ago we were debating dave the hybrid cloud. And I feel like when amazon brought out outposts, the conversation was over right now, what you have is cloud native folks building out hybrid and on prem capabilities, you have a classic on, on prem folks building out hybrid and as a service capabilities. And I really think it boils down 22 things. I mean it's, it's wanting to have more flexibility and you know, I hate to use it because it sounds like a marketing word, but agility, the ability to spin up things and spin down things in a very, a quick way. And uh you know what they've learned, The veterans also know, hey, let's do this in a way that doesn't lock us in too much into a certain vendor. And I've been around for a long time. David and I'm a realist too. Well, you have to lock yourself into something. Uh it just depends on what do you want to lock yourself into, but super exciting and what H. P. E. You know, when they further acts in the sea with Green Lake, I think it was four years ago, uh I think really started to stir the pot. >>You know, you mentioned the term cloud denial, but you know, and I feel like the narrative from, I like to determine as I think you should use the term veteran. You know, it's very, they're ours is the only industry patrick where legacy is a pejorative, but so, but the point I want to make is I feel like there's been a lot of sort of fear from the veteran players, but, but I look at it differently, I wonder what your take is. I, I think, I think I calculated that the Capex spending by the big four public clouds including Alibaba last year was $100 billion. That's like a gift to the world. Here we're gonna spend $100 billion like the internet. Here you go build. And so I, and I feel like companies like HP are finally saying, yeah, we're gonna build, we're gonna build a layer and we're gonna hide the complexity and we're gonna add value on top. What do you think about that? >>Yeah. So I think it's now, I wish, I wish the on prem folks like HP, you would have done it 10 years ago, but I don't think anybody expected the cloud to be as big as it's become over the last 10 years. I think we saw companies like salesforce with sas taking off, but I think it is the right direction because there are advantages to having workloads on prem and if you add an as a service capability on top of the top of that, and let's say even do a Coehlo or a managed service, it's pretty close to being similar to the public cloud with the exception, that you can't necessarily swipe a credit card for a bespoke workload if you're a developer and it is a little harder to scale out. But that is the next step in the equation day, which is having, having these folks make capital expenditures, make them in a Polo facility and then put a layer to swipe a credit card and you literally have the public cloud. >>Yeah. So that's, that's a great point. And that's where it's headed, isn't it? Um, so let's, let's talk about the horses on the track. Hp as you mentioned, I didn't realize it was four years ago. I thought it was, wow, That's amazing. So everybody's followed suit. You see, Dallas announced, Cisco has announced, uh, Lenovo was announced, I think IBM as well. So we, so everybody's sort of following suit there. The reality is, is it's taken some time to get this stuff standardized. What are you seeing from, from HP? They've made some additional announcements, discover what's your take on all this. >>Yeah. So HPD was definitely the rabbit here and they were first in the market. It was good to see. First off some of their, Um, announcements on, on how it's going and they talked about $428 billion 1200 customers over 900 partners and 95% retention. And I think that's important. Anybody who's in the lead and remember what aws I used to do with the slide with the amount of customers would just get bigger and bigger and bigger and that's a good way to show momentum. I like the retention part two which is 95%. And I think that that says a lot uh probably the more important announcements that they made is they talked about the G. A. Of some of their solutions on Green Lake and whether it is A. S. A. P. Hana. Ml apps HPC with Francis, VD. I was Citrus and video but they also brought more of what I would call a vertical layer and I'm sure you've seen the vertical ization of all of these cloud and as a service workloads. But what they're doing with Epic, with EMR and looseness, with financial payments and Splunk and intel with data and risk analysis and finally, a full stack for telco five G. One of the biggest secrets and I covered this about five years ago is HPV actually has a full stack that Western european carriers use and they're now extending that to five G. And um, so more horizontal, uh, and, and more vertical. That was the one of the big swipes, uh, that I saw that there was a second though, but maybe we can talk about these. >>Yeah. Okay. Okay. So, so the other piece of that of course is standardization right there there because there was a, there was a, there was a lot of customization leading up to this and everybody sort of, everybody always had some kind of financial game they can play and say, hey, there's an adversary as a service model, but this is definitely more of a standardized scalable move that H P E. Is making with what they call Lighthouse. Right? >>Yeah, that's exactly right. And I've talked to some Green Lake customers and they obviously gave it kudos or they wouldn't have HP wouldn't have served them up and they wouldn't have been buying it. But they did say, um, it took, it took a while, took some paperwork to get it going. It's not 100% of push button, but that's partially because hp allows you to customize the hardware. You want a one off network adapter. Hp says yes, right. You want to integrate a different type of storage? They said yes. But with Green Lake Lighthouse, it's more of a, what you see is what you get, which by the way, is very much like the public cloud or you go to a public cloud product sheet or order sheet. You're picking from a list and you really don't know everything that's underneath the covers, aside from, let's say, the speed of the network, the type of the storage and the amount of the storage you get. You do get to pick between, let's say, an intel processor, Graviton two or an M. D processor. You get to pick your own GPU. But that's pretty much it. And HP Lighthouse, sorry, Green Lake Lighthouse uh is bringing, I think a simplification to Green Lake that it needs to truly scale beyond, let's say the White House customers that HP Yeah, >>Well done. So, you know, and I hear your point about we're 10 years in plus. And to me this is like a mandate. I mean, this is okay, good, good job guys about time. But if I had a, you know, sort of look at the big player, it's like we have an oligopoly here in this, in this business. It's HP, Cisco, you got Dell Lenovo, you've got, you know, IBM, they're all doing this and they all have a different little difference, you know, waste of skin of catch. And your point about simplicity, it seems like HP HP is all in antony's like, okay, here's what we're going to announce that, you know, a while ago. So, and they seem to have done a good job with Wall Street and they got a simple model, you know, Dell is obviously bigger portfolio, much more complicated. IBM is even more complicated than that. I don't know so much about Lenovo and in Cisco of course, has acquired a ton of SAAS companies and sort of they've got a lot of bespoke products that they're trying to put together. So they've got, but they do have SAS models. So each of them is coming at it from a different perspective. How do you think? And so and the other point we got lighthouse, which is sort of Phase one, get product market fit. Phase two now is scale, codify standardized and then phase three is the moat build your unique advantage that protects your business. What do you see as HP ES sort of unique value proposition and moat that they can build longer term. >>That's a great, great question. And let me rattle off kind of what I'm seeing that some of these players here, So Cisco, ironically has sells the most software of any of those players that you mentioned, uh with the exception of IBM um and yeah, C I >>CSDB two. Yeah, >>yeah, they're the they're the number two security player, uh Microsoft, number one, So and I think the evaluation on the street uh indicate that shows that I feel like Dell tech is a very broad play because not only do they have servers, storage, networking insecurity, but they also have Pcs and devices. So it's a it's a scale and end play with a focus on VM ware solutions, not exclusively of course. Uh And um then you've got Lenovo who is just getting into the as a service game and are gosh, they're doing great in hyper scale, they've got scale there vertically integrated. I don't know if if too many people talk about that, but Lenovo does a lot of their own manufacturing and they actually manufacture Netapp storage solutions as well. So yeah, each of these folks brings a different game to the table. I think with h P e, what you're bringing the table is nimble. When HP and HP split, the number one thing that I said was that ah, h P E is going to have to be so much faster than it offsets the scale that Dell technology has and the HBs credit, although there, I don't think we're getting credit for this in the stock market yet. Um and I know you and I are both industry folks, not financial folks, but I think their biggest thing is speed and the ability to move faster. And that is what I've seen as it relates to the moat, which is a unique uh competitive advantage. Quite frankly, I'm still looking for that day uh in in in what that is. And I think in this industry it's nearly impossible. And I would posit that that any, even the cloud folks, if you say, is there something that AWS can do that as your can't if it put it put its mind to it or G C P. I don't think so. I think it's more of a kind of land and expand and I think for H P E. When it comes to high performance computing and I'm not just talking about government installations, I'm talking about product development, drug development. I think that is a landing place where H P. E already does pretty well can come in and expand its footprint. >>You know, that's really interesting um, observations. So, and I would agree with you. It's kind of like, this is a copycat industry. It's like the west coast offense like the NFL, >>so, >>so the moat comes from, you know, brand execution and your other point about when HP and HP split, that was a game changer because all of a sudden you saw companies like them, you always had a long term relationship with H P E, but or HP, but then they came out of the woodworks and started to explode. And so it really opened up opportunities. So it really is a execution, isn't it? But go ahead please. >>Dave if I had to pick something that I think HP HPV needs to always be ahead in as a service and listen you and I both know announcements don't mean delivery, but there is correlation between if you start four years ahead of somebody that other company is going to have to put just, I mean they're going to have to turn that ship and many of its competitors really big ships to be able to get there. So I think what Antonio needs to do is run like hell, right? Because it, it I think it is in the lead and as a service holistically doesn't mean they're going to be there forever, but they have to stay ahead. They have to add more horizontal solutions. They have to add more vertical solutions. And I believe that at some point it does need to invest in some Capex at somebody like Anna Quinn X play credit card swiper on top of that. And Dave, you have the public, you have the public cloud, you don't have all the availability zones, but you have a public cloud. >>Yeah, that's going to happen. I think you're right on. So we see this notion of cloud expanding. It's no longer just remote set of services. Somewhere out in the cloud. It's like you said, outpost was the sort of signal. Okay, We're coming on prem. Clearly the on prem uh, guys are connecting to the cloud. Multi cloud exists, we know this and then there's the edge but but but that brings me to that sort of vision and everybody's laying out of this this this seamless integration hiding the complexity log into my cloud and then life will be good. But the edge is different. Right? It's not just, you know, retail store or a race track. I mean there's the far edge, there's the Tesla car, there's gonna be compute everywhere and that sort of ties into the data. The data flows, you know the real time influencing at the edge ai new semiconductor models. You you came out of the semiconductor industry, you know it inside and out arm is exploding, dominating in the edge with apple and amazon Alexa and things like that. That's really where the action is. So this is a really interesting cocktail and soup that we have going on. How do >>you say? Well, you know, Dave if the data most data, I think one thing most everybody agrees on is that most of the data will be created on the edge, whether that's a moving edge a car, a smartphone or what I call an edge data center without tile flooring. Like that server that's bolted to the wall of Mcdonald's. When you drive through, you can see it versus the walmart. Every walmart has a raised tile floor. It's the edge to economically and performance wise, it doesn't make any sense to send all that data to the mother ships. Okay. And whether that's unproven data center or the giant public cloud, more efficient way is to do the compute at the closest way possible. But what it does, it does bring up challenges. The first challenge is security. If I wanted to, I could walk in and I could take that server off the Mcdonald's or the Shell gas station wall. So I can't do that in a big data center. Okay, so security, physical security is a challenge. The second is you don't have the people to go in there and fix stuff that are qualified. If you have a networking problem that goes wrong in Mcdonald's, there's nobody there that can help uh they can they can help you fix that. So this notion of autonomy and management and not keeping hyper critical data sitting out there and it becomes it becomes a security issue becomes a management issue. Let me talk about the benefits though. The benefits are lower latency. You want you want answers more quickly when that car is driving down the road And it has a 5GV 2 x communication cameras can't see around corners. But that car communicating ahead, that ran into the stop sign can, through Vita X talked to the car behind it and say, hey, something is going on there, you can't go to, you can't go to the big data center in the sky, let's make that happen, that is to be in near real time and that computer has to happen on the edge. So I think this is a tremendous opportunity and ironically the classic on prem guys, they own this, they own this space aside from smartphones of course, but if you look at compute on a light pole, companies like Intel have built complete architecture is to do that, putting compute into five G base stations, heck, I just, there was an announcement this week of google cloud and its gaming solution putting compute in a carrier edge to give lower latency to deliver a better experience. >>Yeah, so there, of course there is no one edge, it's highly fragmented, but I'm interested in your thoughts on kinda whose stack actually can play at the edge. And I've been sort of poking uh H P E about this. And the one thing that comes back consistently is Aruba, we we could take a room but not only to the, to the near edge, but to the far edge. And and that, do you see that as a competitive advantage? >>Oh gosh, yes. I mean, I would say the best acquisition That hp has made in 10 years has been aruba, it's fantastic and they also managed it in the right way. I mean it was part of HB but it was, it was managed a lot more loosely then, you know, a company that might get sucked into the board and I think that paid off tremendously. They're giving Cisco on the edge a absolute run for their money, their first with new technologies, but it's about the solution. What I love about what a ruble looks at is it's looking at entertainment solutions inside of a stadium, a information solution inside of an airport as opposed to just pushing the technology forward. And then when you integrate compute with with with Aruba, I think that's where the real magic happens. Most of the data on a permanent basis is actually video data. And a lot of it's for security, uh for surveillance. And quite frankly, people taking videos off, they're off their smartphones and downloaded video. I I just interviewed the chief network officer of T mobile and their number one bit of data is video, video uploaded, video download. But that's where the magic happens when you put that connectivity and the compute together and you can manage it in a, in an orderly and secure fashion. >>Well, I have you we have a ton of time here, but I I don't pick your brain about intel the future of intel. I know you've been following it quite closely, you always have Intel's fighting a forefront war, you got there battling a. M. D. There, battling your arm slash and video. They're they're taking on TSMC now and in foundry and, and I'll add china for the looming threat there. So what's your prognosis for for intel? >>Yeah, I liked bob the previous Ceo and I think he was doing a lot of of the right things, but I really think that customers and investors and even their ecosystem wanted somebody leading the company with a high degree of technical aptitude and Pat coming, I mean, Pat had a great job at VM or, I mean he had a great run there and I think it is a very positive move. I've never seen the energy at Intel. Probably in the last 10 years that I've seen today. I actually got a chance to talk with Pat. I visited Pat uhh last month and and talk to him about pretty much everything and where he wanted to take the company the way you looked at technology, what was important, what's not important. But I think first off in the world of semiconductors, there are no quick fixes. Okay. Intel has a another two years Before we see what the results are. And I think 2023 for them is gonna be a huge year. But even with all this competition though, Dave they still have close to 85% market share in servers and revenue share for client computing around 90%. Okay. So and they built out there networking business, they build out a storage business um with obtain they have the leading Aid as provider with Mobileye. And and listen I was I was one of Intel's biggest, I was into one of Intel's biggest, I was Intel's biggest customer when I was a compact. I was their biggest competitor at A. M. B. So um I'm not obviously not overly pushing or there's just got to wait and see. They're doing the right things. They have the right strategy. They need to execute. One of the most important things That Intel did is extend their alliance with TSMC. So in 2023 we're going to see Intel compute units these tiles they integrate into the larger chips called S. O. C. S. B. Manufactured by TSMC. Not exclusively, but we could see that. So literally we could have AMG three nanometer on TSMC CPU blocks, competing with intel chips with TSMC three nanometer CPU blocks and it's on with regard to video. I mean in video is one of these companies that just keeps going charging, charging hard and I'm actually meeting with Jensen wang this week and Arm Ceo Simon Segers to talk about this opportunity and that's a company that keeps on moving interestingly enough in video. If the Arm deal does go through will be the largest chip license, see CPU licensee and have the largest CPU footprint on on the planet. So here we have A and D. Who's CPU and Gpu and buying an F. P. G. A company called Xilinx, you have Intel, Cpus, Gpus machine learning accelerators and F. P. G. S and then you've got arms slashing video bit with everything as well. We have three massive ecosystems. They're gonna be colliding here and I think it's gonna be great for competition date. Competition is great. You know, when there's not competition in Cpus and Gpus, we know what happens, right. Uh, the B just does not go on and we start to stagnate. And I did, I do feel like the industry on CPU started to stagnate when intel had no competition. So bring it on. This is gonna be great for for enterprises then customers to, and then, oh, by the way, the custom Chip providers, WS has created no less than 15 custom semiconductors started with networking uh, and, and nitro and building out an edge that surrounded the general compute and then it moved to Inferential to for inference trainee um, is about to come out for training Graviton and gravitas to for general purpose CPU and then you've got Apple. So innovation is huge and you know, I love to always make fun of the software is eating the world. I always say yeah but has to run on something. And so I think the combination of semiconductors, software and cloud is just really a magical combination. >>Real quick handicap the video arm acquisition. What what are the odds that that they will be successful? They say it's on track. You've got to 2 to 13 to 1 10 to 1. >>I say 75%. Yes 25%. No China is always the has been the odd odd man out for the last three years. They scuttled the qualcomm NXP deal. You just don't know what china is going to do. I think the Eu with some conditions is gonna let this fly. I think the U. S. Is absolutely going to let this fly. And even though the I. P. Will still stay over in the UK, I think the U. S. Wants to see, wants to see this happen. Japan and Korea. I think we'll allow this china is the odd man out. >>In a word, the future of H. P. E. Is blank >>as a service >>patrick Moorehead. Always a pleasure my friend. Great to see you. Thanks so much for coming back in the cube. >>Yeah, Thanks for having me on. I appreciate that. >>Everybody stay tuned for more great coverage from HP discover 21 this is day Volonte for the cube. The leader and enterprise tech coverage. We'll be right back. >>Mm.

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of AWS reinvent 2020. Special coverage sponsored by AWS Worldwide Public sector Welcome to the cubes Coverage of AWS 2020. This is specialized programming for the worldwide public sector. I'm Lisa Martin, and I'm joined by Mick Boccaccio, the security advisor at Splunk Met. Welcome to the Q Virtual Oh, >>thank you for having me. It's great to be here. >>So you have a really interesting background that I wanted to share with our audience. You were the first see so in the history of U. S presidential campaigns with Mayor Pete, you were also branch shape of Threat intelligence at the executive office of the President. Tell us something about about your background is so interesting. >>Uh, yeah, those and I'm a gonna Def con and I teach lock picking for funds. Ease working for Mayor Pete A. C. So the campaign was really, really unique opportunity and I'm glad I did it. I'm hoping that, you know, on both sides of the aisle, no matter what your political preference, people realize that security and campaigns can only be married together. That was an incredible experience and worked with Mayor P. And I learned so much about how campaigns work and just the overall political process. And then previous to that being at the White House and a threat intelligence, role of branch chief they're working over the last election, the 2016 election. I think I learned probably more than any one person wants Thio about elections over that time. So, you know, I'm just a security nerd. That kind of fell into those things. And and and here I am and really, really, really just fortunate to have had those experiences. >>Your phone and your email must have been blowing up the last couple of weeks in the wake of the US presidential election, where the word fraud has brought up many times everyday. But election security. When I saw that you were the first, see so for Pete Buddha Judge, that was so recent, I thought, Really, Why? Why are they just now getting folks like yourself? And you are a self described a cybersecurity nerd? Why are they Why were they just recently starting to catch on to this? >>I think it's, uh like security on the campaign and security anywhere else on credit to the Buddha Judge campaign. There is no federal or mandate or anything like that that says your campaign has toe have a security person at the head of it or any standards to implement those security. So you know that the Buddha Judge campaign kind of leaned into it. We wanna be secure. We saw everything that happened in 2016. We don't want that to be us. And I think Mawr campaigns are getting on that plane. Definitely. You know, you saw recently, uh, Trump's campaign, Biden's campaign. They all had a lot of security folks in, and I think it's the normal. Now people realize how important security is. Uh, not only a political campaign, but I guess the political process overall, >>absolutely. We've seen the rise of cyber attacks and threats and threat vectors this year alone, Ransomware occurring. Everyone attack every 11 seconds or so I was reading recently. So give me an other view of what the biggest threats are right now. >>Two elections and I think the election process in general. You know, like I said, I'm just a security nerd. I've just got a weird background and done some really unique things. Eso I always attack the problems like I'm a security nerd and it comes down to, you know that that triumvirate, the people process and technology people need had to have faith in the process. Faith in the technology. You need to have a a clear source to get their information from the process. To me, I think this year, more than previous elections highlighted the lack of a federal uniforms standard for federal elections. State the state. We have different, different standards, and that kind of leads to confusion with people because, hey, my friend in Washington did it this way. But I'm in Texas and we do it this way. And I think that that standard would help a lot in the faith in the system. And then the last part of that. The technology, uh, you know, voting machines campaigns like I mentioned about campaigns. There's nothing that says a campaign has toe have a security person or a security program, and I think those are the kind of standards for, you know, just voting machines. Um, that needs to be a standard across the board. That's uniforms, so people will will have more faith because It's not different from state to state, and it's a uniformed process. >>E think whole country could have benefited from or uniformed processes in 2020. But one of the things that I like I did my first male and fellow this year always loved going and having that in person voting experience and putting on my sticker. And this year I thought in California we got all of our But there was this massive rise in mainland ballots. I mean, think about that and security in terms of getting the public's confidence. What are some of the things that you saw that you think needs to be uniforms going forward >>again? I think it goes back to when When you look at, you know, you voted by mail and I voted absentee and your ballot was due by this date. Um, you know where I live? Voting absentee. It's Dubai. This state needs we received by the state. Andi, I think this year really highlighted the differences between the states, and I'm hoping that election security and again everyone has done a super fantastic job. Um, sister has done incredible. If you're all their efforts for the working with election officials, secretaries of states on both sides of the aisle. It's an incredible work, and I hope it continues. I think the big problem election security is you know, the election is over, so we don't care again until 2022 or 2024. And I think putting something like a federalized standard, whether it be technology or process putting that in place now so that we're not talking about this in two or four years. I'm hoping that moment, um, continues, >>what would your recommendation be from building security programs to culture and awareness? How would you advise that they start? >>So, uh, one of the things that when I was on the Buddha Judge campaign, you know, like I said, we was the first person to do security for a campaign. And a lot of the staffers didn't quite have the background of professional background of work with security person. No, you know why? What I was doing there Eso my hallmark was You know, I'm trying to build a culture heavy on the cult. Um, you got to get people to buy in. I think this year when you look at what What Krebs and siesta and where the team over there have done is really find a way to tell us. Security story and every facet of the election, whether it be the machines themselves, the transporting the votes, counting the votes, how that information gets out to people websites I started like rumor control, which were were amazing amazing efforts. The public private partnerships that were there I had a chance to work with, uh, MJ and Tanya from from AWS some election project. I think everyone has skin in the game. Everyone wants to make it better. And I hope that moment, um, continues. But I think, you know, embracing that there needs to be a centralized, uniformed place, uh, for every state. And I think that would get rid of a lot of confusion >>when you talk about culture and you mentioned specifically called Do you think that people and agencies and politicians are ready to embrace the culture? Is there enough data to support that? This is really serious. We need to embrace this. We need to buy in a You said, um >>I hope right. I don't know what it could take. I'm hoping so after seeing everything you know, being at the White House from that aperture in 2016. Seeing all of that, I would, you know, think right away. Oh, my gosh. 2018, The midterms, We're gonna be on the ball. And that really didn't happen like we thought it would. 2020. We saw a different kind of technical or I guess, not as technical, uh, security problem. And I think I'm kind of shifting from that to the future. People realize. And I think, uh, both sides of the aisle are working towards security programs and security posture. I think there's a lot of people that have bought into the idea. Um, but I think it kind of starts from the top, and I'm hoping it becomes a standard, so there's not really an option. You will do this just for the security and safety of the campaigns and the electoral process. But I do see a lot more people leaning into it, and a lot more resource is available for those people that are >>talk to me about kind of the status of awareness of security. Needing to combat these issues, be able to remediate them, be able to defend against them where our folks in that awareness cycle, >>I think it ebbs and flows like any other process. Any other you know, incident, event. That happens. And from my experience in the info SEC world, normally there's a compromise. There's an incident, a bunch of money gets thrown at it and then we forget about it a year or two later. Um, I think that culture, that awareness comes in when you have folks that would sustain that effort. And again, you know, on the campaign, um, even at the White House, we try to make everyone apart of security. Security is and all the time thing that everyone has a stake in. Um, you know, I can lock down your email at work. I can make sure this system is super super secure, but it's your personal threat model. You know, your personal email account, your personal social media, putting more security on those and being aware of those, I think that's that awareness is growing. And I Seymour folks in the security community just kind of preaching that awareness more and more and something I'm really, really excited about. >>Yeah, the biggest thing I always think when we talk about security is people that were the biggest threat vector and what happened 89 months ago when so many businesses, um, in any, you know, public sector and private went from on site almost maybe 100% on site to 100% remote people suddenly going, I've got to get connected through my home network. Maybe I'm on my own personal device and didn't really have the time of so many distractions to recognize a phishing email just could come in and propagate. So it's that the people challenge e always seems to me like that might be the biggest challenge. Besides, the technology in the process is what do you think >>I again it goes back. I think it's all part of it. I think. People, um, I've >>looked at it >>slightly. Ah, friend of mine made a really good point. Once he was like, Hey, people gonna click on the link in the email. It's just I think 30% of people dio it's just it's just the nature of people after 20 some odd years and info sec, 20 some odd years and security. I think we should have maybe done a better job of making that link safer, to click on, to click on to make it not militias. But again it goes back, Thio being aware, being vigilant and to your point. Since earlier this year, we've seen a tax increase exponentially specifically on remote desktop protocols from Cove. It related themes and scams and, you know, ransomware targeting healthcare systems. I think it's just the world's getting smaller and we're getting more connected digitally. That vigilance is something you kind of have to building your threat model and build into the ecosystem. When we're doing everything, it's just something you know. I quit a lot, too. You've got junk email, your open your mailbox. You got some junk mail in there. You just throw it out. Your email inbox is no different, and just kind of being aware of that a little more than we are now might go a long way. But again, I think security folks want to do a better job of kind of making these things safer because malicious actors aren't going away. >>No, they're definitely not going away that we're seeing the threat surfaces expanding. I think it was Facebook and TIC Tac and Instagram that were hacked in September. And I think it was unsecured cloud database that was the vehicle. But talking about communication because we talk about culture and awareness communication from the top down Thio every level is imperative. How how do we embrace that and actually make it a standard as possible? >>Uh, in my experience, you know, from an analyst to a C So being able to communicate and communicate effectively, it's gonna save your butt, right? It's if you're a security person, you're You're that cyber guy in the back end, something just got hacked or something just got compromised. I need to be able to communicate that effectively to my leadership, who is gonna be non technical people, and then that leadership has to communicate it out to all the folks that need to hear it. I do think this year just going back to our elections, you saw ah lot of rapid communication, whether it was from DHS, whether it was from, you know, public partners, whether was from the team over Facebook or Twitter, you know, it was ah, lot of activity that they detected and put out as soon as they found it on it was communicated clearly, and I thought the messaging was done beautifully. When you look at all the work that you know Microsoft did on the block post that came out, that information is put out as widely as possible on. But I think it just goes back to making sure that the people have access to it whenever they need it, and they know where to get it from. Um, I think a lot of times you have compromised and that information is slow to get out. And you know that DeLay just creates a confusion, so it clearly concisely and find a place for people, could get it >>absolutely. And how do you see some of these challenges spilling over into your role as the security advisor for Splunk? What are some of the things that you're talking with customers about about right now that are really pressing issues? >>I think my Rolex Plunkett's super super weird, because I started earlier in the year, I actually started in February of this year and a month later, like, Hey, I'm hanging out at home, Um, but I do get a chance to talk to ah, lot of organizations about her security posture about what they're doing. Onda about what they're seeing and you know everything. Everybody has their own. Everybody's a special snowflakes so much more special than others. Um, credit to Billy, but people are kind of seeing the same thing. You know, everybody's at home. You're seeing an increase in the attack surface through remote desktop. You're seeing a lot more fishing. You're singing just a lot. People just under computer all the time. Um, Zoom WebEx I've got like, I don't know, a dozen different chat clients on my computer to talk to people. And you're seeing a lot of exploits kind of coming through that because of that, people are more vigilant. People are adopting new technologies and new processes and kind of finding a way to move into a new working model. I see zero trust architecture becoming a big thing because we're all at home. We're not gonna go anywhere. And we're online more than we're not. I think my circadian rhythm went out the window back in July, so all I do is sit on my computer more often than not. And that caused authentication, just, you know, make sure those assets are secure that we're accessing from our our work resource is I think that gets worse and worse or it doesn't. Not worse, rather. But that doesn't go away, no matter what. Your model is >>right. And I agree with you on that circadian rhythm challenge. Uh, last question for you. As we look at one thing, we know this uncertainty that we're living in is going to continue for some time. And there's gonna be some elements of this that air gonna be permanent. We here execs in many industries saying that maybe we're going to keep 30 to 50% of our folks remote forever. And tech companies that air saying Okay, maybe 50% come back in July 2021. As we look at moving into what we all hope will be a glorious 2021 how can businesses prepare now, knowing some amount of this is going to remain permanent? >>It's a really interesting question, and I'll beyond, I think e no, the team here. It's Plunkett's constantly discussions that start having are constantly evaluating, constantly changing. Um, you know, friends in the industry, it's I think businesses and those executives have to be ready to embrace change as it changes. The same thing that the plans we would have made in July are different than the plans we would have made in November and so on. Andi, I think, is having a rough outline of how we want to go. The most important thing, I think, is being realistic with yourself. And, um, what, you need to be effective as an organization. I think, you know, 50% folks going back to the office works in your model. It doesn't, But we might not be able to do that. And I think that constant ability Thio, adjust. Ah, lot of company has kind of been thrown into the fire. I know my backgrounds mostly public sector and the federal. The federal Space has done a tremendous shift like I never well, rarely got to work, uh, vert remotely in my federal career because I did secret squirrel stuff, but like now, the federal space just leaning into it just they don't have an option. And I think once you have that, I don't I don't think you put Pandora back in that box. I think it's just we work. We work remote now. and it's just a new. It's just a way of working. >>Yep. And then that couldn't be more important to embrace, change and and change over and over again. Make. It's been great chatting with you. I'd love to get dig into some of that secret squirrel stuff. I know you probably have to shoot me, so we will go into that. But it's been great having you on the Cube. Thank you for sharing your thoughts on election security. People processes technology, communication. We appreciate it. >>All right. Thanks so much for having me again. >>My pleasure for McClatchy. Oh, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the Cube virtual.

>> Hello everyone. On today's panel, the theme is Drug Discovery and how Artificial Intelligence can make a difference. On the panel today, we are honored to have Dr. Ryan Yates, principal scientist at The National Center for Natural Products Research, with a focus on botanicals specifically the pharmacokinetics, which is essentially how the drug changes over time in our body and pharmacodynamics which is essentially how drugs affects our body. And of particular interest to him is the use of AI in preclinical screening models to identify chemical combinations that can target chronic inflammatory processes such as fatty liver disease, cognitive impairment and aging. Welcome, Ryan. Thank you for coming. >> Good morning. Thank you for having me. >> The other distinguished panelist is Dr. Rangan Sukumar, our very own, is a distinguished technologist at the CTO office for High Performance Computing and Artificial Intelligence with a PHD in AI and 70 publications that can be applied in drug discovery, autonomous vehicles and social network analysis. Hey Rangan, welcome. Thank you for coming, by sparing the time. We have also our distinguished Chris Davidson. He is leader of our HPC and AI Application and Performance Engineering team. His job is to tune and benchmark applications, particularly in the applications of weather, energy, financial services and life sciences. Yes so particular interest is life sciences he spent 10 years in biotech and medical diagnostics. Hi Chris, welcome. Thank you for coming. >> Nice to see you. >> Well let's start with your Chris, yes, you're regularly interfaced with pharmaceutical companies and worked also on the COVID-19 White House Consortium. You know tell us, let's kick this off and tell us a little bit about your engagement in the drug discovery process. >> Right and that's a good question I think really setting the framework for what we're talking about here is to understand what is the drug discovery process. And that can be kind of broken down into I would say four different areas, there's the research and development space, the preclinical studies space, clinical trial and regulatory review. And if you're lucky, hopefully approval. Traditionally this is a slow arduous process it costs a lot of money and there's a high amount of error. Right, however this process by its very nature is highly iterate and has just huge amounts of data, right it's very data intensive, right and it's these characteristics that make this process a great target for kind of new approaches in different ways of doing things. Right, so for the sake of discussion, right, go ahead. >> Oh yes, so you mentioned data intensive brings to mind Artificial Intelligence, you know, so Artificial Intelligence making the difference here in this process, is that so? >> Right, and some of those novel approaches are actually based on Artificial Intelligence whether it's deep learning and machine learning, et cetera, you know, prime example would say, let's just say for the sake of discussion, let's say there's a brand new virus, causes flu-like symptoms, shall not be named if we focus kind of on the R and D phase, right our goal is really to identify target for the treatment and then screen compounds against it see which, you know, which ones we take forward right to this end, technologies like cryo-electron, cryogenic electron microscopy, just a form of microscopy can provide us a near atomic biomolecular map of the samples that we're studying, right whether that's a virus, a microbe, the cell that it's attaching to and so on, right AI, for instance, has been used in the particle picking aspect of this process. When you take all these images, you know, there are only certain particles that we want to take and study, right whether they have good resolution or not whether it's in the field of the frame and image recognition is a huge part of this, it's massive amounts of data in AI can be very easily, you know, used to approach that. Right, so with docking, you can take the biomolecular maps that you achieved from cryo-electron microscopy and you can take those and input that into the docking application and then run multiple iterations to figure out which will give you the best fit. AI again, right, this is iterative process it's extremely data intensive, it's an easy way to just apply AI and get that best fit doing something in a very, you know, analog manner that would just take humans very long time to do or traditional computing a very long time to do. >> Oh, Ryan, Ryan, you work at the NCNPR, you know, very exciting, you know after all, you know, at some point in history just about all drugs were from natural products yeah, so it's great to have you here today. Please tell us a little bit about your work with the pharmaceutical companies, especially when it is often that drug cocktails or what they call Polypharmacology, is the answer to complete drug therapy. Please tell us a bit more with your work there. >> Yeah thank you again for having me here this morning Dr. Goh, it's a pleasure to be here and as you said, I'm from the National Center for Natural Products Research you'll hear me refer to it as the NCNPR here in Oxford, Mississippi on the Ole Miss Campus, beautiful setting here in the South and so, what, as you said historically, what the drug discovery process has been, and it's really not a drug discovery process is really a therapy process, traditional medicine is we've looked at natural products from medicinal plants okay, in these extracts and so where I'd like to begin is really sort of talking about the assets that we have here at the NCNPR one of those prime assets, unique assets is our medicinal plant repository which comprises approximately 15,000 different medicinal plants. And what that allows us to do, right is to screen mine, that repository for activities so whether you have a disease of interest or whether you have a target of interest then you can use this medicinal plant repository to look for actives, in this case active plants. It's really important in today's environment of drug discovery to really understand what are the actives in these different medicinal plants which leads me to the second unique asset here at the NCNPR and that is our what I'll call a plant deconstruction laboratory so without going into great detail, but what that allows us to do is through a how to put workstation, right, is to facilitate rapid isolation and identification of phytochemicals in these different medicinal plants right, and so things that have historically taken us weeks and sometimes months, think acetylsalicylic acid from salicylic acid as a pain reliever in the willow bark or Taxol, right as an anti-cancer drug, right now we can do that with this system on the matter of days or weeks so now we're talking about activity from a plant and extract down to phytochemical characterization on a timescale, which starts to make sense in modern drug discovery, alright and so now if you look at these phytochemicals, right, and you ask yourself, well sort of who is interested in that and why, right what are traditional pharmaceutical companies, right which I've been working with for 20, over 25 years now, right, typically uses these natural products where historically has used these natural products as starting points for new drugs. Right, so in other words, take this phytochemical and make chemicals synthetic modifications in order to achieve a potential drug. But in the context of natural products, unlike the pharmaceutical realm, there is often times a big knowledge gap between a disease and a plant in other words I have a plant that has activity, but how to connect those dots has been really laborious time consuming so it took us probably 50 years to go from salicylic acid and willow bark to synthesize acetylsalicylic acid or aspirin it just doesn't work in today's environment. So casting about trying to figure out how we expedite that process that's when about four years ago, I read a really fascinating article in the Los Angeles Times about my colleague and business partner, Dr. Rangan Sukumar, describing all the interesting things that he was doing in the area of Artificial Intelligence. And one of my favorite parts of this story is basically, unannounced, I arrived at his doorstep in Oak Ridge, he was working Oak Ridge National Labs at the time, and I introduced myself to him didn't know what was coming, didn't know who I was, right and I said, hey, you don't know me you don't know why I'm here, I said, but let me tell you what I want to do with your system, right and so that kicked off a very fruitful collaboration and friendship over the last four years using Artificial Intelligence and it's culminated most recently in our COVID-19 project collaborative research between the NCNPR and HP in this case. >> From what I can understand also as Chris has mentioned highly iterative, especially with these combination mixture of chemicals right, in plants that could affect a disease. We need to put in effort to figure out what are the active components in that, that affects it yeah, the combination and given the layman's way of understanding it you know and therefore iterative and highly data intensive. And I can see why Rangan can play a huge significant role here, Rangan, thank you for joining us So it's just a nice segue to bring you in here, you know, given your work with Ryan over so many years now, tell I think I'm also quite interested in knowing a little about how it developed the first time you met and the process and the things you all work together on that culminated into the progress at the advanced level today. Please tell us a little bit about that history and also the current work. Rangan. >> So, Ryan, like he mentioned, walked into my office about four years ago and he was like hey, I'm working on this Omega-3 fatty acid, what can your system tell me about this Omega-3 fatty acid and I didn't even know how to spell Omega-3 fatty acids that's the disconnect between the technologist and the pharmacologist, they have terms of their own right since then we've come a long way I think I understand his terminologies now and he understands that I throw words like knowledge graphs and page rank and then all kinds of weird stuff that he's probably never heard in his life before right, so it's been on my mind off to different domains and terminologies in trying to accept each other's expertise in trying to work together on a collaborative project. I think the core of what Ryan's work and collaboration has led me to understanding is what happens with the drug discovery process, right so when we think about the discovery itself, we're looking at companies that are trying to accelerate the process to market, right an average drug is taking 12 years to get to market the process that Chris just mentioned, Right and so companies are trying to adopt what's called the in silico simulation techniques and in silico modeling techniques into what was predominantly an in vitro, in silico, in vivo environment, right. And so the in silico techniques could include things like molecular docking, could include Artificial Intelligence, could include other data-driven discovery methods and so forth, and the essential component of all the things that you know the discovery workflows have is the ability to augment human experts to do the best by assisting them with what computers do really really well. So, in terms of what we've done as examples is Ryan walks in and he's asking me a bunch of questions and few that come to mind immediately, the first few are, hey, you are an Artificial Intelligence expert can you sift through a database of molecules the 15,000 compounds that he described to prioritize a few for next lab experiments? So that's question number one. And he's come back into my office and asked me about hey, there's 30 million publications in PubMag and I don't have the time to read everything can you create an Artificial Intelligence system that once I've picked these few molecules will tell me everything about the molecule or everything about the virus, the unknown virus that shows up, right. Just trying to understand what are some ways in which he can augment his expertise, right. And then the third question, I think he described better than I'm going to was how can technology connect these dots. And typically it's not that the answer to a drug discovery problem sits in one database, right he probably has to think about uniproduct protein he has to think about phytochemical, chemical or informatics properties, data and so forth. Then he talked about the phytochemical interaction that's probably in another database. So when he is trying to answer other question and specifically in the context of an unknown virus that showed up in late last year, the question was, hey, do we know what happened in this particular virus compared to all the previous viruses? Do we know of any substructure that was studied or a different disease that's part of this unknown virus and can I use that information to go mine these databases to find out if these interactions can actually be used as a repurpose saying, hook, say this drug does not interact with this subsequence of a known virus that also seems to be part of this new virus, right? So to be able to connect that dot I think the abstraction that we are learning from working with pharma companies is that this drug discovery process is complex, it's iterative, and it's a sequence of needle in the haystack search problems, right and so one day, Ryan would be like, hey, I need to match genome, I need to match protein sequences between two different viruses. Another day it would be like, you know, I need to sift through a database of potential compounds, identified side effects and whatnot other day it could be, hey, I need to design a new molecule that never existed in the world before I'll figure out how to synthesize it later on, but I need a completely new molecule because of patentability reasons, right so it goes through the entire spectrum. And I think where HP has differentiated multiple times even the recent weeks is that the technology infusion into drug discovery, leads to several aha! Moments. And, aha moments typically happened in the other few seconds, and not the hours, days, months that Ryan has to laboriously work through. And what we've learned is pharma researchers love their aha moments and it leads to a sound valid, well founded hypothesis. Isn't that true Ryan? >> Absolutely. Absolutely. >> Yeah, at some point I would like to have a look at your, peak the list of your aha moments, yeah perhaps there's something quite interesting in there for other industries too, but we'll do it at another time. Chris, you know, with your regular work with pharmaceutical companies especially the big pharmas, right, do you see botanicals, coming, being talked about more and more there? >> Yeah, we do, right. Looking at kind of biosimilars and drugs that are already really in existence is kind of an important point and Dr. Yates and Rangan, with your work with databases this is something important to bring up and much of the drug discovery in today's world, isn't from going out and finding a brand new molecule per se. It's really looking at all the different databases, right all the different compounds that already exist and sifting through those, right of course data is mind, and it is gold essentially, right so a lot of companies don't want to share their data. A lot of those botanicals data sets are actually open to the public to use in many cases and people are wanting to have more collaborative efforts around those databases so that's really interesting to kind of see that being picked up more and more. >> Mm, well and Ryan that's where NCNPR hosts much of those datasets, yeah right and it's interesting to me, right you know, you were describing the traditional way of drug discovery where you have a target and a compound, right that can affect that target, very very specific. But from a botanical point of view, you really say for example, I have an extract from a plant that has combination of chemicals and somehow you know, it affects this disease but then you have to reverse engineer what those chemicals are and what the active ones are. Is that very much the issue, the work that has to be put in for botanicals in this area? >> Yes Doctor Goh, you hit it exactly. >> Now I can understand why a highly iterative intensive and data intensive, and perhaps that's why Rangan, you're highly valuable here, right. So tell us about the challenge, right the many to many intersection to try and find what the targets are, right given these botanicals that seem to affect the disease here what methods do you use, right in AI, to help with this? >> Fantastic question, I'm going to go a little bit deeper and speak like Ryan in terminology, but here we go. So with going back to about starting of our conversation right, so let's say we have a database of molecules on one side, and then we've got the database of potential targets in a particular, could be a virus, could be bacteria, could be whatever, a disease target that you've identified, right >> Oh this process so, for example, on a virus, you can have a number of targets on the virus itself some have the spike protein, some have the other proteins on the surface so there are about three different targets and others on a virus itself, yeah so a lot of people focus on the spike protein, right but there are other targets too on that virus, correct? >> That is exactly right. So for example, so the work that we did with Ryan we realized that, you know, COVID-19 protein sequence has an overlap, a significant overlap with previous SARS-CoV-1 virus, not only that, but it overlap with MERS, that's overlapped with some bad coronavirus that was studied before and so forth, right so knowing that and it's actually broken down into multiple and Ryan I'm going to steal your words, non-structural proteins, envelope proteins, S proteins, there's a whole substructure that you can associate an amino acid sequence with, right so on the one hand, you have different targets and again, since we did the work it's 160 different targets even on the COVID-19 mark, right and so you find a match, that we say around 36, 37 million molecules that are potentially synthesizable and try to figure it out which one of those or which few of those is actually going to be mapping to which one of these targets and actually have a mechanism of action that Ryan's looking for, that'll inhibit the symptoms on a human body, right so that's the challenge there. And so I think the techniques that we can unrule go back to how much do we know about the target and how much do we know about the molecule, alright. And if you start off a problem with I don't know anything about the molecule and I don't know anything about the target, you go with the traditional approaches of docking and molecular dynamics simulations and whatnot, right. But then, you've done so much docking before on the same database for different targets, you'll learn some new things about the ligands, the molecules that Ryan's talking about that can predict potential targets. So can you use that information of previous protein interactions or previous binding to known existing targets with some of the structures and so forth to build a model that will capture that essence of what we have learnt from the docking before? And so that's the second level of how do we infuse Artificial Intelligence. The third level, is to say okay, I can do this for a database of molecules, but then what if the protein-protein interactions are all over the literature study for millions of other viruses? How do I connect the dots across different mechanisms of actions too? Right and so this is where the knowledge graph component that Ryan was talking about comes in. So we've put together a database of about 150 billion medical facts from literature that Ryan is able to connect the dots and say okay, I'm starting with this molecule, what interactions do I know about the molecule? Is there a pretty intruding interaction that affects the mechanism of pathway for the symptoms that a disease is causing? And then he can go and figure out which protein and protein in the virus could potentially be working with this drug so that inhibiting certain activities would stop that progression of the disease from happening, right so like I said, your method of options, the options you've got is going to be, how much do you know about the target? How much do you know the drug database that you have and how much information can you leverage from previous research as you go down this pipeline, right so in that sense, I think we mix and match different methods and we've actually found that, you know mixing and matching different methods produces better synergies for people like Ryan. So. >> Well, the synergies I think is really important concept, Rangan, in additivities, synergistic, however you want to catch that. Right. But it goes back to your initial question Dr. Goh, which is this idea of polypharmacology and historically what we've done with traditional medicines there's more than one active, more than one network that's impacted, okay. You remember how I sort of put you on both ends of the spectrum which is the traditional sort of approach where we really don't know much about target ligand interaction to the completely interpretal side of it, right where now we are all, we're focused on is, in a single molecule interacting with a target. And so where I'm going with this is interesting enough, pharma has sort of migrate, started to migrate back toward the middle and what I mean by that, right, is we had these in a concept of polypharmacology, we had this idea, a regulatory pathway of so-called, fixed drug combinations. Okay, so now you start to see over the last 20 years pharmaceutical companies taking known, approved drugs and putting them in different combinations to impact different diseases. Okay. And so I think there's a really unique opportunity here for Artificial Intelligence or as Rangan has taught me, Augmented Intelligence, right to give you insight into how to combine those approved drugs to come up with unique indications. So is that patentability right, getting back to right how is it that it becomes commercially viable for entities like pharmaceutical companies but I think at the end of the day what's most interesting to me is sort of that, almost movement back toward that complex mixture of fixed drug combination as opposed to single drug entity, single target approach. I think that opens up some really neat avenues for us. As far as the expansion, the applicability of Artificial Intelligence is I'd like to talk to, briefly about one other aspect, right so what Rang and I have talked about is how do we take this concept of an active phytochemical and work backwards. In other words, let's say you identify a phytochemical from an in silico screening process, right, which was done for COVID-19 one of the first publications out of a group, Dr. Jeremy Smith's group at Oak Ridge National Lab, right, identified a natural product as one of the interesting actives, right and so it raises the question to our botanical guy, says, okay, where in nature do we find that phytochemical? What plants do I go after to try and source botanical drugs to achieve that particular end point right? And so, what Rangan's system allows us to do is to say, okay, let's take this phytochemical in this case, a phytochemical flavanone called eriodictyol and say, where else in nature is this found, right that's a trivial question for an Artificial Intelligence system. But for a guy like me left to my own devices without AI, I spend weeks combing the literature. >> Wow. So, this is brilliant I've learned something here today, right, If you find a chemical that actually, you know, affects and addresses a disease, right you can actually try and go the reverse way to figure out what botanicals can give you those chemicals as opposed to trying to synthesize them. >> Well, there's that and there's the other, I'm going to steal Rangan's thunder here, right he always teach me, Ryan, don't forget everything we talk about has properties, plants have properties, chemicals have properties, et cetera it's really understanding those properties and using those properties to make those connections, those edges, those sort of interfaces, right. And so, yes, we can take something like an eriodictyol right, that example I gave before and say, okay, now, based upon the properties of eriodictyol, tell me other phytochemicals, other flavonoid in this case, such as that phytochemical class of eriodictyols part right, now tell me how, what other phytochemicals match that profile, have the same properties. It might be more economically viable, right in other words, this particular phytochemical is found in a unique Himalayan plant that I've never been able to source, but can we find something similar or same thing growing in, you know a bush found all throughout the Southeast for example, like. >> Wow. So, Chris, on the pharmaceutical companies, right are they looking at this approach of getting, building drugs yeah, developing drugs? >> Yeah, absolutely Dr. Goh, really what Dr. Yates is talking about, right it doesn't help us if we find a plant and that plant lives on one mountain only on the North side in the Himalayas, we're never going to be able to create enough of a drug to manufacture and to provide to the masses, right assuming that the disease is widespread or affects a large enough portion of the population, right so understanding, you know, not only where is that botanical or that compound but understanding the chemical nature of the chemical interaction and the physics of it as well where which aspect affects the binding site, which aspect of the compound actually does the work, if you will and then being able to make that at scale, right. If you go to these pharmaceutical companies today, many of them look like breweries to be honest with you, it's large scale, it's large back everybody's clean room and it's, they're making the microbes do the work for them or they have these, you know, unique processes, right. So. >> So they're not brewing beer okay, but drugs instead. (Christopher laughs) >> Not quite, although there are pharmaceutical companies out there that have had a foray into the brewery business and vice versa, so. >> We should, we should visit one of those, yeah (chuckles) Right, so what's next, right? So you've described to us the process and how you develop your relationship with Dr. Yates Ryan over the years right, five years, was it? And culminating in today's, the many to many fast screening methods, yeah what would you think would be the next exciting things you would do other than letting me peek at your aha moments, right what would you say are the next exciting steps you're hoping to take? >> Thinking long term, again this is where Ryan and I are working on this long-term project about, we don't know enough about botanicals as much as we know about the synthetic molecules, right and so this is a story that's inspired from Simon Sinek's "Infinite Game" book, trying to figure it out if human population has to survive for a long time which we've done so far with natural products we are going to need natural products, right. So what can we do to help organizations like NCNPR to stage genomes of natural products to stage and understand the evolution as we go to understand the evolution to map the drugs and so forth. So the vision is huge, right so it's not something that we want to do on a one off project and go away but in the process, just like you are learning today, Dr. Goh I'm going to be learning quite a bit, having fun with life. So, Ryan what do you think? >> Ryan, we're learning from you. >> So my paternal grandfather lived to be 104 years of age. I've got a few years to get there, but back to "The Infinite Game" concept that Rang had mentioned he and I discussed that quite frequently, I'd like to throw out a vision for you that's well beyond that sort of time horizon that we have as humans, right and that's this right, is our current strategy and it's understandable is really treatment centric. In other words, we have a disease we develop a treatment for that disease. But we all recognize, whether you're a healthcare practitioner, whether you're a scientist, whether you're a business person, right or whatever occupation you realize that prevention, right the old ounce, prevention worth a pound of cure, right is how can we use something like Artificial Intelligence to develop preventive sorts of strategies that we are able to predict with time, right that's why we don't have preventive treatment approach right, we can't do a traditional clinical trial and say, did we prevent type two diabetes in an 18 year old? Well, we can't do that on a timescale that is reasonable, okay. And then the other part of that is why focus on botanicals? Is because, for the most part and there are exceptions I want to be very clear, I don't want to paint the picture that botanicals are all safe, you should just take botanicals dietary supplements and you'll be safe, right there are exceptions, but for the most part botanicals, natural products are in fact safe and have undergone testing, human testing for thousands of years, right. So how do we connect those dots? A preventive strategy with existing extent botanicals to really develop a healthcare system that becomes preventive centric as opposed to treatment centric. If I could wave a magic wand, that's the vision that I would figure out how we could achieve, right and I do think with guys like Rangan and Chris and folks like yourself, Eng Lim, that that's possible. Maybe it's in my lifetime I got 50 years to go to get to my grandfather's age, but you never know, right? >> You bring really, up two really good points there Ryan, it's really a systems approach, right understanding that things aren't just linear, right? And as you go through it, there's no impact to anything else, right taking that systems approach to understand every aspect of how things are being impacted. And then number two was really kind of the downstream, really we've been discussing the drug discovery process a lot and kind of the kind of preclinical in vitro studies and in vivo models, but once you get to the clinical trial there are many drugs that just fail, just fail miserably and the botanicals, right known to be safe, right, in many instances you can have a much higher success rate and that would be really interesting to see, you know, more of at least growing in the market. >> Well, these are very visionary statements from each of you, especially Dr. Yates, right, prevention better than cure, right, being proactive better than being reactive. Reactive is important, but we also need to focus on being proactive. Yes. Well, thank you very much, right this has been a brilliant panel with brilliant panelists, Dr. Ryan Yates, Dr. Rangan Sukumar and Chris Davidson. Thank you very much for joining us on this panel and highly illuminating conversation. Yeah. All for the future of drug discovery, that includes botanicals. Thank you very much. >> Thank you. >> Thank you.

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube covering >>space and cybersecurity. Symposium 2020 hosted by Cal Poly >>Over On Welcome to this Special virtual conference. The Space and Cybersecurity Symposium 2020 put on by Cal Poly with support from the Cube. I'm John for your host and master of ceremonies. Got a great topic today in this session. Really? The intersection of space and cybersecurity. This topic and this conversation is the cybersecurity workforce development through public and private partnerships. And we've got a great lineup. We have Jeff Armstrong's the president of California Polytechnic State University, also known as Cal Poly Jeffrey. Thanks for jumping on and Bang. Go ahead. The second director of C four s R Division. And he's joining us from the office of the Under Secretary of Defense for the acquisition Sustainment Department of Defense, D O D. And, of course, Steve Jake's executive director, founder, National Security Space Association and managing partner at Bello's. Gentlemen, thank you for joining me for this session. We got an hour conversation. Thanks for coming on. >>Thank you. >>So we got a virtual event here. We've got an hour, have a great conversation and love for you guys do? In opening statement on how you see the development through public and private partnerships around cybersecurity in space, Jeff will start with you. >>Well, thanks very much, John. It's great to be on with all of you. Uh, on behalf Cal Poly Welcome, everyone. Educating the workforce of tomorrow is our mission to Cal Poly. Whether that means traditional undergraduates, master students are increasingly mid career professionals looking toe up, skill or re skill. Our signature pedagogy is learn by doing, which means that our graduates arrive at employers ready Day one with practical skills and experience. We have long thought of ourselves is lucky to be on California's beautiful central Coast. But in recent years, as we have developed closer relationships with Vandenberg Air Force Base, hopefully the future permanent headquarters of the United States Space Command with Vandenberg and other regional partners, we have discovered that our location is even more advantages than we thought. We're just 50 miles away from Vandenberg, a little closer than u C. Santa Barbara, and the base represents the southern border of what we have come to think of as the central coast region. Cal Poly and Vandenberg Air force base have partner to support regional economic development to encourage the development of a commercial spaceport toe advocate for the space Command headquarters coming to Vandenberg and other ventures. These partnerships have been possible because because both parties stand to benefit Vandenberg by securing new streams of revenue, workforce and local supply chain and Cal Poly by helping to grow local jobs for graduates, internship opportunities for students, and research and entrepreneurship opportunities for faculty and staff. Crucially, what's good for Vandenberg Air Force Base and for Cal Poly is also good for the Central Coast and the US, creating new head of household jobs, infrastructure and opportunity. Our goal is that these new jobs bring more diversity and sustainability for the region. This regional economic development has taken on a life of its own, spawning a new nonprofit called Reach, which coordinates development efforts from Vandenberg Air Force Base in the South to camp to Camp Roberts in the North. Another factor that is facilitated our relationship with Vandenberg Air Force Base is that we have some of the same friends. For example, Northrop Grumman has has long been an important defense contractor, an important partner to Cal poly funding scholarships and facilities that have allowed us to stay current with technology in it to attract highly qualified students for whom Cal Poly's costs would otherwise be prohibitive. For almost 20 years north of grimness funded scholarships for Cal Poly students this year, their funding 64 scholarships, some directly in our College of Engineering and most through our Cal Poly Scholars program, Cal Poly Scholars, a support both incoming freshman is transfer students. These air especially important because it allows us to provide additional support and opportunities to a group of students who are mostly first generation, low income and underrepresented and who otherwise might not choose to attend Cal Poly. They also allow us to recruit from partner high schools with large populations of underrepresented minority students, including the Fortune High School in Elk Grove, which we developed a deep and lasting connection. We know that the best work is done by balanced teams that include multiple and diverse perspectives. These scholarships help us achieve that goal, and I'm sure you know Northrop Grumman was recently awarded a very large contract to modernized the U. S. I. C B M Armory with some of the work being done at Vandenberg Air Force Base, thus supporting the local economy and protecting protecting our efforts in space requires partnerships in the digital realm. How Polly is partnered with many private companies, such as AWS. Our partnerships with Amazon Web services has enabled us to train our students with next generation cloud engineering skills, in part through our jointly created digital transformation hub. Another partnership example is among Cal Poly's California Cybersecurity Institute, College of Engineering and the California National Guard. This partnership is focused on preparing a cyber ready workforce by providing faculty and students with a hands on research and learning environment, side by side with military, law enforcement professionals and cyber experts. We also have a long standing partnership with PG and E, most recently focused on workforce development and redevelopment. Many of our graduates do indeed go on to careers in aerospace and defense industry as a rough approximation. More than 4500 Cal Poly graduates list aerospace and defense as their employment sector on linked in, and it's not just our engineers and computer sciences. When I was speaking to our fellow Panelists not too long ago, >>are >>speaking to bang, we learned that Rachel sins, one of our liberal arts arts majors, is working in his office. So shout out to you, Rachel. And then finally, of course, some of our graduates sword extraordinary heights such as Commander Victor Glover, who will be heading to the International space station later this year as I close. All of which is to say that we're deeply committed the workforce, development and redevelopment that we understand the value of public private partnerships and that were eager to find new ways in which to benefit everyone from this further cooperation. So we're committed to the region, the state in the nation and our past efforts in space, cybersecurity and links to our partners at as I indicated, aerospace industry and governmental partners provides a unique position for us to move forward in the interface of space and cybersecurity. Thank you so much, John. >>President, I'm sure thank you very much for the comments and congratulations to Cal Poly for being on the forefront of innovation and really taking a unique progressive. You and wanna tip your hat to you guys over there. Thank you very much for those comments. Appreciate it. Bahng. Department of Defense. Exciting you gotta defend the nation spaces Global. Your opening statement. >>Yes, sir. Thanks, John. Appreciate that day. Thank you, everybody. I'm honored to be this panel along with President Armstrong, Cal Poly in my long longtime friend and colleague Steve Jakes of the National Security Space Association, to discuss a very important topic of cybersecurity workforce development, as President Armstrong alluded to, I'll tell you both of these organizations, Cal Poly and the N S. A have done and continue to do an exceptional job at finding talent, recruiting them in training current and future leaders and technical professionals that we vitally need for our nation's growing space programs. A swell Asare collective National security Earlier today, during Session three high, along with my colleague Chris Hansen discussed space, cyber Security and how the space domain is changing the landscape of future conflicts. I discussed the rapid emergence of commercial space with the proliferations of hundreds, if not thousands, of satellites providing a variety of services, including communications allowing for global Internet connectivity. S one example within the O. D. We continue to look at how we can leverage this opportunity. I'll tell you one of the enabling technologies eyes the use of small satellites, which are inherently cheaper and perhaps more flexible than the traditional bigger systems that we have historically used unemployed for the U. D. Certainly not lost on Me is the fact that Cal Poly Pioneer Cube SATs 2020 some years ago, and they set the standard for the use of these systems today. So they saw the valiant benefit gained way ahead of everybody else, it seems, and Cal Poly's focus on training and education is commendable. I especially impressed by the efforts of another of Steve's I colleague, current CEO Mr Bill Britain, with his high energy push to attract the next generation of innovators. Uh, earlier this year, I had planned on participating in this year's Cyber Innovation Challenge. In June works Cal Poly host California Mill and high school students and challenge them with situations to test their cyber knowledge. I tell you, I wish I had that kind of opportunity when I was a kid. Unfortunately, the pandemic change the plan. Why I truly look forward. Thio feature events such as these Thio participating. Now I want to recognize my good friend Steve Jakes, whom I've known for perhaps too long of a time here over two decades or so, who was in acknowledge space expert and personally, I truly applaud him for having the foresight of years back to form the National Security Space Association to help the entire space enterprise navigate through not only technology but Polly policy issues and challenges and paved the way for operational izing space. Space is our newest horrifying domain. That's not a secret anymore. Uh, and while it is a unique area, it shares a lot of common traits with the other domains such as land, air and sea, obviously all of strategically important to the defense of the United States. In conflict they will need to be. They will all be contested and therefore they all need to be defended. One domain alone will not win future conflicts in a joint operation. We must succeed. All to defending space is critical as critical is defending our other operational domains. Funny space is no longer the sanctuary available only to the government. Increasingly, as I discussed in the previous session, commercial space is taking the lead a lot of different areas, including R and D, A so called new space, so cyber security threat is even more demanding and even more challenging. Three US considers and federal access to and freedom to operate in space vital to advancing security, economic prosperity, prosperity and scientific knowledge of the country. That's making cyberspace an inseparable component. America's financial, social government and political life. We stood up US Space force ah, year ago or so as the newest military service is like the other services. Its mission is to organize, train and equip space forces in order to protect us and allied interest in space and to provide space capabilities to the joint force. Imagine combining that US space force with the U. S. Cyber Command to unify the direction of space and cyberspace operation strengthened U D capabilities and integrate and bolster d o d cyber experience. Now, of course, to enable all of this requires had trained and professional cadre of cyber security experts, combining a good mix of policy as well as high technical skill set much like we're seeing in stem, we need to attract more people to this growing field. Now the D. O. D. Is recognized the importance of the cybersecurity workforce, and we have implemented policies to encourage his growth Back in 2013 the deputy secretary of defense signed the D. O d cyberspace workforce strategy to create a comprehensive, well equipped cyber security team to respond to national security concerns. Now this strategy also created a program that encourages collaboration between the D. O. D and private sector employees. We call this the Cyber Information Technology Exchange program or site up. It's an exchange programs, which is very interesting, in which a private sector employees can naturally work for the D. O. D. In a cyber security position that spans across multiple mission critical areas are important to the d. O. D. A key responsibility of cybersecurity community is military leaders on the related threats and cyber security actions we need to have to defeat these threats. We talk about rapid that position, agile business processes and practices to speed up innovation. Likewise, cybersecurity must keep up with this challenge to cyber security. Needs to be right there with the challenges and changes, and this requires exceptional personnel. We need to attract talent investing the people now to grow a robust cybersecurity, workforce, streets, future. I look forward to the panel discussion, John. Thank you. >>Thank you so much bomb for those comments and you know, new challenges and new opportunities and new possibilities and free freedom Operating space. Critical. Thank you for those comments. Looking forward. Toa chatting further. Steve Jakes, executive director of N. S. S. A Europe opening statement. >>Thank you, John. And echoing bangs thanks to Cal Poly for pulling these this important event together and frankly, for allowing the National Security Space Association be a part of it. Likewise, we on behalf the association delighted and honored Thio be on this panel with President Armstrong along with my friend and colleague Bonneau Glue Mahad Something for you all to know about Bomb. He spent the 1st 20 years of his career in the Air Force doing space programs. He then went into industry for several years and then came back into government to serve. Very few people do that. So bang on behalf of the space community, we thank you for your long life long devotion to service to our nation. We really appreciate that and I also echo a bang shot out to that guy Bill Britain, who has been a long time co conspirator of ours for a long time and you're doing great work there in the cyber program at Cal Poly Bill, keep it up. But professor arms trying to keep a close eye on him. Uh, I would like to offer a little extra context to the great comments made by by President Armstrong and bahng. Uh, in our view, the timing of this conference really could not be any better. Um, we all recently reflected again on that tragic 9 11 surprise attack on our homeland. And it's an appropriate time, we think, to take pause while the percentage of you in the audience here weren't even born or babies then For the most of us, it still feels like yesterday. And moreover, a tragedy like 9 11 has taught us a lot to include to be more vigilant, always keep our collective eyes and ears open to include those quote eyes and ears from space, making sure nothing like this ever happens again. So this conference is a key aspect. Protecting our nation requires we work in a cybersecurity environment at all times. But, you know, the fascinating thing about space systems is we can't see him. No, sir, We see Space launches man there's nothing more invigorating than that. But after launch, they become invisible. So what are they really doing up there? What are they doing to enable our quality of life in the United States and in the world? Well, to illustrate, I'd like to paraphrase elements of an article in Forbes magazine by Bonds and my good friend Chuck Beans. Chuck. It's a space guy, actually had Bonds job a fuse in the Pentagon. He is now chairman and chief strategy officer at York Space Systems, and in his spare time he's chairman of the small satellites. Chuck speaks in words that everyone can understand. So I'd like to give you some of his words out of his article. Uh, they're afraid somewhat. So these are Chuck's words. Let's talk about average Joe and playing Jane. Before heading to the airport for a business trip to New York City, Joe checks the weather forecast informed by Noah's weather satellites to see what pack for the trip. He then calls an uber that space app. Everybody uses it matches riders with drivers via GPS to take into the airport, So Joe has lunch of the airport. Unbeknownst to him, his organic lunch is made with the help of precision farming made possible through optimized irrigation and fertilization, with remote spectral sensing coming from space and GPS on the plane, the pilot navigates around weather, aided by GPS and nose weather satellites. And Joe makes his meeting on time to join his New York colleagues in a video call with a key customer in Singapore made possible by telecommunication satellites. Around to his next meeting, Joe receives notice changing the location of the meeting to another to the other side of town. So he calmly tells Syria to adjust the destination, and his satellite guided Google maps redirects him to the new location. That evening, Joe watches the news broadcast via satellite. The report details a meeting among world leaders discussing the developing crisis in Syria. As it turns out, various forms of quote remotely sensed. Information collected from satellites indicate that yet another band, chemical weapon, may have been used on its own people. Before going to bed, Joe decides to call his parents and congratulate them for their wedding anniversary as they cruise across the Atlantic, made possible again by communications satellites and Joe's parents can enjoy the call without even wondering how it happened the next morning. Back home, Joe's wife, Jane, is involved in a car accident. Her vehicle skids off the road. She's knocked unconscious, but because of her satellite equipped on star system, the crash is detected immediately and first responders show up on the scene. In time, Joe receives the news books. An early trip home sends flowers to his wife as he orders another uber to the airport. Over that 24 hours, Joe and Jane used space system applications for nearly every part of their day. Imagine the consequences if at any point they were somehow denied these services, whether they be by natural causes or a foreign hostility. And each of these satellite applications used in this case were initially developed for military purposes and continue to be, but also have remarkable application on our way of life. Just many people just don't know that. So, ladies and gentlemen, now you know, thanks to chuck beans, well, the United States has a proud heritage being the world's leading space faring nation, dating back to the Eisenhower and Kennedy years. Today we have mature and robust systems operating from space, providing overhead reconnaissance to quote, wash and listen, provide missile warning, communications, positioning, navigation and timing from our GPS system. Much of what you heard in Lieutenant General J. T. Thompson earlier speech. These systems are not only integral to our national security, but also our also to our quality of life is Chuck told us. We simply no longer could live without these systems as a nation and for that matter, as a world. But over the years, adversary like adversaries like China, Russia and other countries have come to realize the value of space systems and are aggressively playing ketchup while also pursuing capabilities that will challenge our systems. As many of you know, in 2000 and seven, China demonstrated it's a set system by actually shooting down is one of its own satellites and has been aggressively developing counter space systems to disrupt hours. So in a heavily congested space environment, our systems are now being contested like never before and will continue to bay well as Bond mentioned, the United States has responded to these changing threats. In addition to adding ways to protect our system, the administration and in Congress recently created the United States Space Force and the operational you United States Space Command, the latter of which you heard President Armstrong and other Californians hope is going to be located. Vandenberg Air Force Base Combined with our intelligence community today, we have focused military and civilian leadership now in space. And that's a very, very good thing. Commence, really. On the industry side, we did create the National Security Space Association devoted solely to supporting the national security Space Enterprise. We're based here in the D C area, but we have arms and legs across the country, and we are loaded with extraordinary talent. In scores of Forman, former government executives, So S s a is joined at the hip with our government customers to serve and to support. We're busy with a multitude of activities underway ranging from a number of thought provoking policy. Papers are recurring space time Webcast supporting Congress's Space Power Caucus and other main serious efforts. Check us out at NSS. A space dot org's One of our strategic priorities in central to today's events is to actively promote and nurture the workforce development. Just like cow calling. We will work with our U. S. Government customers, industry leaders and academia to attract and recruit students to join the space world, whether in government or industry and two assistant mentoring and training as their careers. Progress on that point, we're delighted. Be delighted to be working with Cal Poly as we hopefully will undertake a new pilot program with him very soon. So students stay tuned something I can tell you Space is really cool. While our nation's satellite systems are technical and complex, our nation's government and industry work force is highly diverse, with a combination of engineers, physicists, method and mathematicians, but also with a large non technical expertise as well. Think about how government gets things thes systems designed, manufactured, launching into orbit and operating. They do this via contracts with our aerospace industry, requiring talents across the board from cost estimating cost analysis, budgeting, procurement, legal and many other support. Tasker Integral to the mission. Many thousands of people work in the space workforce tens of billions of dollars every year. This is really cool stuff, no matter what your education background, a great career to be part of. When summary as bang had mentioned Aziz, well, there is a great deal of exciting challenges ahead we will see a new renaissance in space in the years ahead, and in some cases it's already begun. Billionaires like Jeff Bezos, Elon Musk, Sir Richard Richard Branson are in the game, stimulating new ideas in business models, other private investors and start up companies. Space companies are now coming in from all angles. The exponential advancement of technology and microelectronics now allows the potential for a plethora of small SAT systems to possibly replace older satellites the size of a Greyhound bus. It's getting better by the day and central to this conference, cybersecurity is paramount to our nation's critical infrastructure in space. So once again, thanks very much, and I look forward to the further conversation. >>Steve, thank you very much. Space is cool. It's relevant. But it's important, as you pointed out, and you're awesome story about how it impacts our life every day. So I really appreciate that great story. I'm glad you took the time Thio share that you forgot the part about the drone coming over in the crime scene and, you know, mapping it out for you. But that would add that to the story later. Great stuff. My first question is let's get into the conversations because I think this is super important. President Armstrong like you to talk about some of the points that was teased out by Bang and Steve. One in particular is the comment around how military research was important in developing all these capabilities, which is impacting all of our lives. Through that story. It was the military research that has enabled a generation and generation of value for consumers. This is kind of this workforce conversation. There are opportunities now with with research and grants, and this is, ah, funding of innovation that it's highly accelerate. It's happening very quickly. Can you comment on how research and the partnerships to get that funding into the universities is critical? >>Yeah, I really appreciate that And appreciate the comments of my colleagues on it really boils down to me to partnerships, public private partnerships. You mentioned Northrop Grumman, but we have partnerships with Lockie Martin, Boeing, Raytheon Space six JPL, also member of organization called Business Higher Education Forum, which brings together university presidents and CEOs of companies. There's been focused on cybersecurity and data science, and I hope that we can spill into cybersecurity in space but those partnerships in the past have really brought a lot forward at Cal Poly Aziz mentioned we've been involved with Cube set. Uh, we've have some secure work and we want to plan to do more of that in the future. Uh, those partnerships are essential not only for getting the r and d done, but also the students, the faculty, whether masters or undergraduate, can be involved with that work. Uh, they get that real life experience, whether it's on campus or virtually now during Covic or at the location with the partner, whether it may be governmental or our industry. Uh, and then they're even better equipped, uh, to hit the ground running. And of course, we'd love to see even more of our students graduate with clearance so that they could do some of that a secure work as well. So these partnerships are absolutely critical, and it's also in the context of trying to bring the best and the brightest and all demographics of California and the US into this field, uh, to really be successful. So these partnerships are essential, and our goal is to grow them just like I know other colleagues and C. S u and the U C are planning to dio, >>you know, just as my age I've seen I grew up in the eighties, in college and during that systems generation and that the generation before me, they really kind of pioneered the space that spawned the computer revolution. I mean, you look at these key inflection points in our lives. They were really funded through these kinds of real deep research. Bond talk about that because, you know, we're living in an age of cloud. And Bezos was mentioned. Elon Musk. Sir Richard Branson. You got new ideas coming in from the outside. You have an accelerated clock now on terms of the innovation cycles, and so you got to react differently. You guys have programs to go outside >>of >>the Defense Department. How important is this? Because the workforce that air in schools and our folks re skilling are out there and you've been on both sides of the table. So share your thoughts. >>No, thanks, John. Thanks for the opportunity responded. And that's what you hit on the notes back in the eighties, R and D in space especially, was dominated by my government funding. Uh, contracts and so on. But things have changed. As Steve pointed out, A lot of these commercial entities funded by billionaires are coming out of the woodwork funding R and D. So they're taking the lead. So what we can do within the deal, the in government is truly take advantage of the work they've done on. Uh, since they're they're, you know, paving the way to new new approaches and new way of doing things. And I think we can We could certainly learn from that. And leverage off of that saves us money from an R and D standpoint while benefiting from from the product that they deliver, you know, within the O D Talking about workforce development Way have prioritized we have policies now to attract and retain talent. We need I I had the folks do some research and and looks like from a cybersecurity workforce standpoint. A recent study done, I think, last year in 2019 found that the cybersecurity workforce gap in the U. S. Is nearing half a million people, even though it is a growing industry. So the pipeline needs to be strengthened off getting people through, you know, starting young and through college, like assess a professor Armstrong indicated, because we're gonna need them to be in place. Uh, you know, in a period of about maybe a decade or so, Uh, on top of that, of course, is the continuing issue we have with the gap with with stamps students, we can't afford not to have expertise in place to support all the things we're doing within the with the not only deal with the but the commercial side as well. Thank you. >>How's the gap? Get? Get filled. I mean, this is the this is again. You got cybersecurity. I mean, with space. It's a whole another kind of surface area, if you will, in early surface area. But it is. It is an I o t. Device if you think about it. But it does have the same challenges. That's kind of current and and progressive with cybersecurity. Where's the gap Get filled, Steve Or President Armstrong? I mean, how do you solve the problem and address this gap in the workforce? What is some solutions and what approaches do we need to put in place? >>Steve, go ahead. I'll follow up. >>Okay. Thanks. I'll let you correct. May, uh, it's a really good question, and it's the way I would. The way I would approach it is to focus on it holistically and to acknowledge it up front. And it comes with our teaching, etcetera across the board and from from an industry perspective, I mean, we see it. We've gotta have secure systems with everything we do and promoting this and getting students at early ages and mentoring them and throwing internships at them. Eyes is so paramount to the whole the whole cycle, and and that's kind of and it really takes focused attention. And we continue to use the word focus from an NSS, a perspective. We know the challenges that are out there. There are such talented people in the workforce on the government side, but not nearly enough of them. And likewise on industry side. We could use Maura's well, but when you get down to it, you know we can connect dots. You know that the the aspect That's a Professor Armstrong talked about earlier toe where you continue to work partnerships as much as you possibly can. We hope to be a part of that. That network at that ecosystem the will of taking common objectives and working together to kind of make these things happen and to bring the power not just of one or two companies, but our our entire membership to help out >>President >>Trump. Yeah, I would. I would also add it again. It's back to partnerships that I talked about earlier. One of our partners is high schools and schools fortune Margaret Fortune, who worked in a couple of, uh, administrations in California across party lines and education. Their fifth graders all visit Cal Poly and visit our learned by doing lab and you, you've got to get students interested in stem at a early age. We also need the partnerships, the scholarships, the financial aid so the students can graduate with minimal to no debt to really hit the ground running. And that's exacerbated and really stress. Now, with this covert induced recession, California supports higher education at a higher rate than most states in the nation. But that is that has dropped this year or reasons. We all understand, uh, due to Kobe, and so our partnerships, our creativity on making sure that we help those that need the most help financially uh, that's really key, because the gaps air huge eyes. My colleagues indicated, you know, half of half a million jobs and you need to look at the the students that are in the pipeline. We've got to enhance that. Uh, it's the in the placement rates are amazing. Once the students get to a place like Cal Poly or some of our other amazing CSU and UC campuses, uh, placement rates are like 94%. >>Many of our >>engineers, they have jobs lined up a year before they graduate. So it's just gonna take key partnerships working together. Uh, and that continued partnership with government, local, of course, our state of CSU on partners like we have here today, both Stephen Bang So partnerships the thing >>e could add, you know, the collaboration with universities one that we, uh, put a lot of emphasis, and it may not be well known fact, but as an example of national security agencies, uh, National Centers of Academic Excellence in Cyber, the Fast works with over 270 colleges and universities across the United States to educate its 45 future cyber first responders as an example, so that Zatz vibrant and healthy and something that we ought Teoh Teik, banjo >>off. Well, I got the brain trust here on this topic. I want to get your thoughts on this one point. I'd like to define what is a public private partnership because the theme that's coming out of the symposium is the script has been flipped. It's a modern error. Things air accelerated get you got security. So you get all these things kind of happen is a modern approach and you're seeing a digital transformation play out all over the world in business. Andi in the public sector. So >>what is what >>is a modern public private partnership? What does it look like today? Because people are learning differently, Covert has pointed out, which was that we're seeing right now. How people the progressions of knowledge and learning truth. It's all changing. How do you guys view the modern version of public private partnership and some some examples and improve points? Can you can you guys share that? We'll start with the Professor Armstrong. >>Yeah. A zai indicated earlier. We've had on guy could give other examples, but Northup Grumman, uh, they helped us with cyber lab. Many years ago. That is maintained, uh, directly the software, the connection outside its its own unit so that students can learn the hack, they can learn to penetrate defenses, and I know that that has already had some considerations of space. But that's a benefit to both parties. So a good public private partnership has benefits to both entities. Uh, in the common factor for universities with a lot of these partnerships is the is the talent, the talent that is, that is needed, what we've been working on for years of the, you know, that undergraduate or master's or PhD programs. But now it's also spilling into Skilling and re Skilling. As you know, Jobs. Uh, you know, folks were in jobs today that didn't exist two years, three years, five years ago. But it also spills into other aspects that can expand even mawr. We're very fortunate. We have land, there's opportunities. We have one tech part project. We're expanding our tech park. I think we'll see opportunities for that, and it'll it'll be adjusted thio, due to the virtual world that we're all learning more and more about it, which we were in before Cove it. But I also think that that person to person is going to be important. Um, I wanna make sure that I'm driving across the bridge. Or or that that satellites being launched by the engineer that's had at least some in person training, uh, to do that and that experience, especially as a first time freshman coming on a campus, getting that experience expanding and as adult. And we're gonna need those public private partnerships in order to continue to fund those at a level that is at the excellence we need for these stem and engineering fields. >>It's interesting People in technology can work together in these partnerships in a new way. Bank Steve Reaction Thio the modern version of what a public, successful private partnership looks like. >>If I could jump in John, I think, you know, historically, Dodi's has have had, ah, high bar thio, uh, to overcome, if you will, in terms of getting rapid pulling in your company. This is the fault, if you will and not rely heavily in are the usual suspects of vendors and like and I think the deal is done a good job over the last couple of years off trying to reduce the burden on working with us. You know, the Air Force. I think they're pioneering this idea around pitch days where companies come in, do a two hour pitch and immediately notified of a wooden award without having to wait a long time. Thio get feedback on on the quality of the product and so on. So I think we're trying to do our best. Thio strengthen that partnership with companies outside the main group of people that we typically use. >>Steve, any reaction? Comment to add? >>Yeah, I would add a couple of these air. Very excellent thoughts. Uh, it zits about taking a little gamble by coming out of your comfort zone. You know, the world that Bond and Bond lives in and I used to live in in the past has been quite structured. It's really about we know what the threat is. We need to go fix it, will design it says we go make it happen, we'll fly it. Um, life is so much more complicated than that. And so it's it's really to me. I mean, you take you take an example of the pitch days of bond talks about I think I think taking a gamble by attempting to just do a lot of pilot programs, uh, work the trust factor between government folks and the industry folks in academia. Because we are all in this together in a lot of ways, for example. I mean, we just sent the paper to the White House of their requests about, you know, what would we do from a workforce development perspective? And we hope Thio embellish on this over time once the the initiative matures. But we have a piece of it, for example, is the thing we call clear for success getting back Thio Uh, President Armstrong's comments at the collegiate level. You know, high, high, high quality folks are in high demand. So why don't we put together a program they grabbed kids in their their underclass years identifies folks that are interested in doing something like this. Get them scholarships. Um, um, I have a job waiting for them that their contract ID for before they graduate, and when they graduate, they walk with S C I clearance. We believe that could be done so, and that's an example of ways in which the public private partnerships can happen to where you now have a talented kid ready to go on Day one. We think those kind of things can happen. It just gets back down to being focused on specific initiatives, give them giving them a chance and run as many pilot programs as you can like these days. >>That's a great point, E. President. >>I just want to jump in and echo both the bank and Steve's comments. But Steve, that you know your point of, you know, our graduates. We consider them ready Day one. Well, they need to be ready Day one and ready to go secure. We totally support that and and love to follow up offline with you on that. That's that's exciting, uh, and needed very much needed mawr of it. Some of it's happening, but way certainly have been thinking a lot about that and making some plans, >>and that's a great example of good Segway. My next question. This kind of reimagining sees work flows, eyes kind of breaking down the old the old way and bringing in kind of a new way accelerated all kind of new things. There are creative ways to address this workforce issue, and this is the next topic. How can we employ new creative solutions? Because, let's face it, you know, it's not the days of get your engineering degree and and go interview for a job and then get slotted in and get the intern. You know the programs you get you particularly through the system. This is this is multiple disciplines. Cybersecurity points at that. You could be smart and math and have, ah, degree in anthropology and even the best cyber talents on the planet. So this is a new new world. What are some creative approaches that >>you know, we're >>in the workforce >>is quite good, John. One of the things I think that za challenge to us is you know, we got somehow we got me working for with the government, sexy, right? The part of the challenge we have is attracting the right right level of skill sets and personnel. But, you know, we're competing oftentimes with the commercial side, the gaming industry as examples of a big deal. And those are the same talents. We need to support a lot of programs we have in the U. D. So somehow we have to do a better job to Steve's point off, making the work within the U. D within the government something that they would be interested early on. So I tracked him early. I kind of talked about Cal Poly's, uh, challenge program that they were gonna have in June inviting high school kid. We're excited about the whole idea of space and cyber security, and so on those air something. So I think we have to do it. Continue to do what were the course the next several years. >>Awesome. Any other creative approaches that you guys see working or might be on idea, or just a kind of stoked the ideation out their internship. So obviously internships are known, but like there's gotta be new ways. >>I think you can take what Steve was talking about earlier getting students in high school, uh, and aligning them sometimes. Uh, that intern first internship, not just between the freshman sophomore year, but before they inter cal poly per se. And they're they're involved s So I think that's, uh, absolutely key. Getting them involved many other ways. Um, we have an example of of up Skilling a redeveloped work redevelopment here in the Central Coast. PG and e Diablo nuclear plant as going to decommission in around 2020 24. And so we have a ongoing partnership toe work on reposition those employees for for the future. So that's, you know, engineering and beyond. Uh, but think about that just in the manner that you were talking about. So the up skilling and re Skilling uh, on I think that's where you know, we were talking about that Purdue University. Other California universities have been dealing with online programs before cove it and now with co vid uh, so many more faculty or were pushed into that area. There's going to be much more going and talk about workforce development and up Skilling and Re Skilling The amount of training and education of our faculty across the country, uh, in in virtual, uh, and delivery has been huge. So there's always a silver linings in the cloud. >>I want to get your guys thoughts on one final question as we in the in the segment. And we've seen on the commercial side with cloud computing on these highly accelerated environments where you know, SAS business model subscription. That's on the business side. But >>one of The >>things that's clear in this trend is technology, and people work together and technology augments the people components. So I'd love to get your thoughts as we look at the world now we're living in co vid um, Cal Poly. You guys have remote learning Right now. It's a infancy. It's a whole new disruption, if you will, but also an opportunity to enable new ways to collaborate, Right? So if you look at people and technology, can you guys share your view and vision on how communities can be developed? How these digital technologies and people can work together faster to get to the truth or make a discovery higher to build the workforce? These air opportunities? How do you guys view this new digital transformation? >>Well, I think there's there's a huge opportunities and just what we're doing with this symposium. We're filming this on one day, and it's going to stream live, and then the three of us, the four of us, can participate and chat with participants while it's going on. That's amazing. And I appreciate you, John, you bringing that to this this symposium, I think there's more and more that we can do from a Cal poly perspective with our pedagogy. So you know, linked to learn by doing in person will always be important to us. But we see virtual. We see partnerships like this can expand and enhance our ability and minimize the in person time, decrease the time to degree enhanced graduation rate, eliminate opportunity gaps or students that don't have the same advantages. S so I think the technological aspect of this is tremendous. Then on the up Skilling and Re Skilling, where employees air all over, they can be reached virtually then maybe they come to a location or really advanced technology allows them to get hands on virtually, or they come to that location and get it in a hybrid format. Eso I'm I'm very excited about the future and what we can do, and it's gonna be different with every university with every partnership. It's one. Size does not fit all. >>It's so many possibilities. Bond. I could almost imagine a social network that has a verified, you know, secure clearance. I can jump in, have a little cloak of secrecy and collaborate with the d o. D. Possibly in the future. But >>these are the >>kind of kind of crazy ideas that are needed. Are your thoughts on this whole digital transformation cross policy? >>I think technology is gonna be revolutionary here, John. You know, we're focusing lately on what we call digital engineering to quicken the pace off, delivering capability to warfighter. As an example, I think a I machine language all that's gonna have a major play and how we operate in the future. We're embracing five G technologies writing ability Thio zero latency or I o t More automation off the supply chain. That sort of thing, I think, uh, the future ahead of us is is very encouraging. Thing is gonna do a lot for for national defense on certainly the security of the country. >>Steve, your final thoughts. Space systems are systems, and they're connected to other systems that are connected to people. Your thoughts on this digital transformation opportunity >>Such a great question in such a fun, great challenge ahead of us. Um echoing are my colleague's sentiments. I would add to it. You know, a lot of this has I think we should do some focusing on campaigning so that people can feel comfortable to include the Congress to do things a little bit differently. Um, you know, we're not attuned to doing things fast. Uh, but the dramatic You know, the way technology is just going like crazy right now. I think it ties back Thio hoping Thio, convince some of our senior leaders on what I call both sides of the Potomac River that it's worth taking these gamble. We do need to take some of these things very way. And I'm very confident, confident and excited and comfortable. They're just gonna be a great time ahead and all for the better. >>You know, e talk about D. C. Because I'm not a lawyer, and I'm not a political person, but I always say less lawyers, more techies in Congress and Senate. So I was getting job when I say that. Sorry. Presidential. Go ahead. >>Yeah, I know. Just one other point. Uh, and and Steve's alluded to this in bonded as well. I mean, we've got to be less risk averse in these partnerships. That doesn't mean reckless, but we have to be less risk averse. And I would also I have a zoo. You talk about technology. I have to reflect on something that happened in, uh, you both talked a bit about Bill Britton and his impact on Cal Poly and what we're doing. But we were faced a few years ago of replacing a traditional data a data warehouse, data storage data center, and we partner with a W S. And thank goodness we had that in progress on it enhanced our bandwidth on our campus before Cove. It hit on with this partnership with the digital transformation hub. So there is a great example where, uh, we we had that going. That's not something we could have started. Oh, covitz hit. Let's flip that switch. And so we have to be proactive on. We also have thio not be risk averse and do some things differently. Eyes that that is really salvage the experience for for students. Right now, as things are flowing, well, we only have about 12% of our courses in person. Uh, those essential courses, uh, and just grateful for those partnerships that have talked about today. >>Yeah, and it's a shining example of how being agile, continuous operations, these air themes that expand into space and the next workforce needs to be built. Gentlemen, thank you. very much for sharing your insights. I know. Bang, You're gonna go into the defense side of space and your other sessions. Thank you, gentlemen, for your time for great session. Appreciate it. >>Thank you. Thank you. >>Thank you. >>Thank you. Thank you. Thank you all. >>I'm John Furry with the Cube here in Palo Alto, California Covering and hosting with Cal Poly The Space and Cybersecurity Symposium 2020. Thanks for watching.

(upbeat electronic music) >> Narrator: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a CUBE conversation. >> Okay, hello everyone. I'm John Furrier with theCUBE. We're here with Meet the Analysts segment Sunday morning. We've got everyone around the world here to discuss a bit of the news around the EU killing the privacy deal, striking it down, among other topics around, you know, data privacy and global commerce. We got great guests here, Ray Wang, CEO of Constellation Research. Bill Mew, founder and CEO of Cyber Crisis Management from the Firm Crisis Team. And JD, CEO of Spearhead Management. JD, I can let you say your name because I really can't pronounce it. How do I (laughs) pronounce it, doctor? >> I wouldn't even try it unless you are Dutch, otherwise it will seriously hurt your throat. (Ray laughing) So, JD works perfect for me. >> Doctor Drooghaag. >> And Sarbjeet Johal, who's obviously an influencer, a cloud awesome native expert. Great, guys. Great to have you on, appreciate it, thanks for comin' on. And Bill, thank you for initiating this, I appreciate all your tweets. >> Happy Sunday. (Bill laughing) >> You guys have been really tweeting up a storm, I want to get everyone together, kind of as an analyst, Meet the Analyst segment. Let's go through with it. The news is the EU and U.S. Privacy Shield for data struck down by the court, that's the BBC headline. Variety of news, different perspectives, you've got an American perspective and you've got an international perspective. Bill, we'll start with you. What does this news mean? I mean, basically half the people in the world probably don't know what the Privacy Shield means, so why is this ruling so important, and why should it be discussed? >> Well, thanks to sharing between Europe and America, it's based on a two-way promise that when data goes from Europe to America, the Americans promise to respect our privacy, and when data goes form America to Europe, the Europeans promise to respect the American privacy. Unfortunately, there are big cultural differences between the two blocks. The Europeans have a massive orientation around privacy as a human right. And in the U.S., there's somewhat more of a prioritization on national security, and therefore for some time there's been a mismatch here, and it could be argued that the Americans haven't been living up to their promise because they've had various different laws, and look how much talk about FISA and the Cloud Act that actually contravene European privacy and are incompatible with the promise Americans have given. That promise, first of all, was in the form of a treaty called Safe Harbor. This went to court and was struck down. It was replaced by Privacy Shield, which was pretty much the same thing really, and that has recently been to the court as well, and that has been struck down. There now is no other means of legally sharing data between Europe and America other than what are being called standard contractual clauses. This isn't a broad treaty between two nations, these are drawn by each individual country. But also in the ruling, they said that standard contractual clauses could not be used by any companies that were subject to mass surveillance. And actually in the U.S., the FISA courts enforce a level of mass surveillance through all of the major IT firms, of all major U.S. telcos, cloud firms, or indeed, social media firms. So, this means that for all of the companies out there and their clients, business should be carrying on as usual apart from if you're one of those major U.S. IT firms, or one of their clients. >> So, why did this come about? Was there like a major incident? Why now, was it in the court, stuck in the courts? Were people bitchin' and moanin' about it? Why did this go down, what's the real issue? >> For those of us who have been following this attentively, things have been getting more and more precarious for a number of years now. We've had a situation where there are different measures being taken in the U.S., that have continued to erode the different protections that there were for Europeans. FISA is an example that I've given, and that is the sort of secret courts and secret warrants that are issued to seize data without anyone's knowledge. There's the Cloud Act, which is a sort of extrajudicial law that means that warrants can be served in America to U.S. organizations, and they have to hand over data wherever that data resides, anywhere in the world. So, data could exist on a European server, if it was under the control of an American company, they'd have to hand that over. So, whilst FISA is in direct conflict with the promises that the Americans made, things like the Cloud Act are not only in controversion with the promise they've made, there's conflicting law here, because if you're a U.S. subsidiary of a big U.S. firm, and you're based in Europe, who do you obey, the European law that says you can't hand it over because of GDPR, or the American laws that says they've got extrajudicial control, and that you've got to hand it over. So, it's made things a complete mess. And to say has this stuff, hasn't really happened? No, there's been a gradual erosion, and this has been going through the courts for a number of years. And many of us have seen it coming, and now it just hit us. >> So, if I get you right in what you're saying, it's basically all this mishmash of different laws, and there's no coherency, and consistency, is that the core issue? >> On the European side you could argue there's quite a lot of consistency, because we uphold people's privacy, in theory. But there have been incidents which we could talk about with that, but in theory, we hold your rights dear, and also the rights of Europeans, so everyone's data should be safe here from the sort of mass surveillance we're seeing. In the U.S., there's more of a direct conflict between everything, including there's been a, in his first week in the White House, Donald Trump signed an executive order saying that the Privacy Act in the U.S., which had been the main protection for people in the U.S., no longer applied to non-U.S. citizens. Which was, if you wanted try and cause a storm, and if you wanted to try and undermine the treaty, there's no better way of doing it than that. >> A lot of ways, Ray, I mean simplify this for me, because I'm a startup, I'm hustlin', or I'm a big company, I don't even know who runs the servers anymore, and I've got data stored in multiple clouds, I got in regions, and Oracle just announced more regions, you got Amazon, a gazillion regions, I could be on-premise. I mean bottom line, what is this about? I mean, and -- >> Bill's right, I mean when Max Schrems, the Austrian. Bill's right, when Max Schrems the Austrian activist actually filed his case against Facebook for where data was being stored, data residency wasn't as popular. And you know, what it means for companies that are in the cloud is that you have to make sure your data's being stored in the region, and following those specific region rules, you can't skirt those rules anymore. And I think the cloud companies know that this has been coming for some time, and that's why there's been announced in a lot of regions, a lot of areas that are actually happening, so I think that's the important part. But going back to Bill's earlier point, which is important, is America is basically the Canary Islands of privacy, right? Privacy is there, but it isn't there in a very, very explicit sense, and I think we've been skirting the rules for quite some time, because a lot of our economy depends on that data, and the marketing of the data. And so we often confuse privacy with consent, and also with value exchange, and I think that's part of the problem of what's going on here. Companies that have been building their business models on free data, free private data, free personally identifiable data information are the ones that are at risk! And I think that's what's going on here. >> It's the classic Facebook issue, you're the product, and the data is your product. Well, I want to get into what this means, 'cause my personal take away, not knowing the specifics, and just following say, cyber security for instance, one of the tenets there is that data sharing is an invaluable, important ethos in the community. Now, everyone has their own privacy, or security data, they don't want to let everyone know about their exploits but, but it's well known in the security world that sharing data with each other, different companies and countries is actually a good thing. So, the question that comes in my mind, is this really about data sharing or data privacy, or both? >> I think it's about both. And actually what the ruling is saying here is, all we're asking from the European side is please stop spying on us and please give us a level of equal protection that you give to your own citizens. Because data comes from America to Europe, whatever that data belongs to, a U.S. citizen or a European citizen, it's given equal protection. It is only if data goes in the other direction, where you have secret courts, secret warrants, seizure of data on this massive scale, and also a level of lack of equivalence that has been imposed. And we're just asking that once you've sorted out a few of those things, we'd say everything's back on the table, away we go again! >> Why don't we merge the EU with the United States? Wouldn't that solve the problem? (Bill laughing) >> We just left Europe! (laughs heartily) >> Actually I always -- >> A hostile takeover of the UK maybe, the 52nd state. (Bill laughing loudly) >> I always pick on Bill, like Bill, you got all screaming loud and clear about all these concerns, but UKs trying to get out of that economic union. It is a union at the end of the day, and I think the problem is the institutional mismatch between the EU and U.S., U.S. is old democracy, bigger country, population wise, bigger economy. Whereas Europe is several countries trying to put together, band together as one entity, and the institutions are new, like you know, they're 15 years old, right? They're maturing. I think that's where the big mismatch is and -- >> Well, Ray, I want to get your thoughts on this, Ray wrote a book, I forget what year it was, this digital disruption, basically it was digital transformation before it was actually a trend. I mean to me it's like, do you do the process first and then figure out where the value extraction is, and this may be a Silicon Valley or an American thing, but go create value, then figure out how to create process or understand regulations. So, if data and entrepreneurship is going to be a new modern era of value, why wouldn't we want to create a rule based system that's open and enabling, and not restrictive? >> So, that's a great point, right? And the innovation culture means you go do it first, and you figure out the rules later, and that's been a very American way of getting things done, and very Silicon Valley in our perspective, not everyone, but I think in general that's kind of the trend. I think the challenge here is that we are trading privacy for security, privacy for convenience, privacy for personalization, right? And on the security level, it's a very different conversation than what it is on the consumer end, you know, personalization side. On the security side I think most Americans are okay with a little bit of "spying," at least on your own side, you know, to keep the country safe. We're not okay with a China level type of spying, which we're not sure exactly what that means or what's enforceable in the courts. We look like China to the Europeans in the way we treat privacy, and I think that's the perspective we need to understand because Europeans are very explicit about how privacy is being protected. And so this really comes back to a point where we actually have to get to a consent model on privacy, as to knowing what data is being shared, you have the right to say no, and when you have the right to say no. And then if you have a value exchange on that data, then it's really like sometimes it's monetary, sometimes it's non-monetary, sometimes there's other areas around consensus where you can actually put that into place. And I think that's what's missing at this point, saying, you know, "Do we pay for your data? Do we explicitly get your consent first before we use it?" And we haven't had that in place, and I think that's where we're headed towards. And you know sometimes we actually say privacy should be a human right, it is in the UN Charter, but we haven't figured out how to enforce it or talk about it in the digital age. And so I think that's the challenge. >> Okay, people, until they lose it, they don't really understand what it means. I mean, look at Americans. I have to say that we're idiots on this front, (Bill chuckling) but you know, the thing is most people don't even understand how much value's getting sucked out of their digital exhaust. Like, our kids, TikTok and whatnot. So I mean, I get that, I think there's some, there's going to be blow back for America for sure. I just worry it's going to increase the cost of doing business, and take away from the innovation for citizen value, the people, because at the end of the day, it's for the people right? I mean, at the end of the day it's like, what's my privacy mean if I lose value? >> Even before we start talking about the value of the data and the innovation that we can do through data use, you have to understand the European perspective here. For the European there's a level of double standards and an erosion of trust. There's double standards in the fact that in California you have new privacy regulations that are slightly different to GDPR, but they're very much GDPR like. And if the boot was on the other foot, to say if we were spying on Californians and looking at their personal data, and contravening CCPA, the Californians would be up in arms! Likewise if we having promised to have a level of equality, had enacted a local rule in Europe that said that when data from America's over here, actually the privacy of Americans counts for nothing, we're only going to prioritize the privacy of Europeans. Again, the Americans would be up in arms! And therefore you can see that there are real double standards here that are a massive issue, and until those addressed, we're not going to trust the Americans. And likewise, the very fact that on a number of occasions Americans have signed up to treaties and promised to protect our data as they did with Safe Harbor, as they did with Privacy Shield, and then have blatantly, blatantly failed to do so means that actually to get back to even a level playing field, where we were, you have a great deal of trust to overcome! And the thing from the perspective of the big IT firms, they've seen this coming for a long time, as Ray was saying, and they sought to try and have a presence in Europe and other things. But the way this ruling has gone is that, I'm sorry, that isn't going to be sufficient! These big IT firms based in the U.S. that have been happy to hand over data, well some of them maybe more happy than others, but they all need to hand over data to the NSA or the CIA. They've been doing this for some time now without actually respecting this data privacy agreement that has existed between the two trading blocks. And now they've been called out, and the position now is that the U.S. is no longer trusted, and neither are any of these large American technology firms. And until the snooping stops and equality is introduced, they can now no longer, even from their European operations, they can no longer use standard contractual clauses to transfer data, which is going to be a massive restriction on their business. And if they had any sense, they'd be lobbying very, very hard right now to the Senate, to the House, to try and persuade U.S. lawmakers actually to stick to some these treaties! To stop introducing really mad laws that ride roughshod over other people's privacy, and have a certain amount of respect. >> Let's let JD weigh in, 'cause he just got in, sorry on the video, I made him back on a host 'cause he dropped off. Just, Bill, real quick, I mean I think it's like when, you know, I go to Europe there's the line for Americans, there's the line for EU. Or EU and everybody else. I mean we might be there, but ultimately this has to be solved. So, JD, I want to let you weigh in, Germany has been at the beginning forefront of privacy, and they've been hardcore, and how's this all playing out in your perspective? >> Well, the first thing that we have to understand is that in Germany, there is a very strong law for regulation. Germans panic as soon as they know regulation, so they need to understand what am I allowed to do, and what am I not allowed to do. And they expect the same from the others. For the record I'm not German, but I live in Germany for some 20 years, so I got a bit of a feeling for them. And that sense of need for regulation has spread very fast throughout the European Union, because most of the European member states of the European Union consider this, that it makes sense, and then we found that Britain had already a very good framework for privacy, so GDPR itself is very largely based on what the United Kingdom already had in place with their privacy act. Moving forward, we try to find agreement and consensus with other countries, especially the United States because that's where most of the tech providers are, only to find out, and that is where it started to go really, really bad, 2014, when the mass production by Edward Snowden came out, to find out it's not data from citizens, it's surveillance programs which include companies. I joined a purchasing conference a few weeks ago where the purchase of a large European multinational, where the purchasing director explicitly stated that usage of U.S. based tech providers for sensitive data is prohibited as a result of them finding out that they have been under surveillance. So, it's not just the citizens, there's mass -- >> There you have it, guys! We did trust you! We did have agreements there that you could have abided by, but you chose not to, you chose to abuse our trust! And you're now in a position where you are no longer trusted, and unless you can lobby your own elected representatives to actually recreate a level playing field, we're not going to continue trusting you. >> So, I think really I -- >> Well I mean that, you know, innovation has to come from somewhere, and you know, has to come from America if that's the case, you guys have to get on board, right? Is that what it -- >> Innovation without trust? >> Is that the perspective? >> I don't think it's a country thing, I mean like, it's not you or them, I think everybody -- >> I'm just bustin' Bill's chops there. >> No, but I think everybody, everybody is looking for what the privacy rules are, and that's important. And you can have that innovation with consent, and I think that's really where we're going to get to. And this is why I keep pushing that issue. I mean, privacy should be a fundamental right, and how you get paid for that privacy is interesting, or how you get compensated for that privacy if you know what the explicit value exchange is. What you're talking about here is the surveillance that's going on by companies, which shouldn't be happening, right? That shouldn't be happening at the company level. At the government level I can understand that that is happening, and I think those are treaties that the governments have to agree upon as to how much they're going to impinge on our personal privacy for the trade off for security, and I don't think they've had those discussions either. Or they decided and didn't tell any of their citizens, and I think that's probably more likely the case. >> I mean, I think what's happening here, Bill, you guys were pointing out, and Ray, you articulated there on the other side, and my kind of colorful joke aside, is that we're living a first generation modern sociology problem. I mean, this is a policy challenge that extends across multiple industries, cyber security, citizen's rights, geopolitical. I mean when would look, and even when we were doing CUBE events overseas in Europe, in North American companies we'd call it abroad, we'd just recycle the American program, and we found there's so much localization value. So, Ray, this is the digital disruption, it's the virtualization of physical for digital worlds, and it's a lot of network theory, which is computer science, a lot of sociology. This is a modern challenge, and I don't think it so much has a silver bullet, it's just that we need smart people working on this. That's my take away! >> I think we can describe the ideal endpoint being somewhere we have meaningful protection alongside the maximization of economic and social value through innovation. So, that should be what we would all agree would be the ideal endpoint. But we need both, we need meaningful protection, and we need the maximization of economic and social value through innovation! >> Can I add another axis? Another axis, security as well. >> Well, I could -- >> I put meaningful protection as becoming both security and privacy. >> Well, I'll speak for the American perspective here, and I won't speak, 'cause I'm not the President of the United States, but I will say as someone who's been from Silicon Valley and the east coast as a technical person, not a political person, our lawmakers are idiots when it comes to tech, just generally. (Ray laughing) They're not really -- (Bill laughing loudly) >> They really don't understand. They really don't understand the tech at all! >> So, the problem is -- >> I'm not claiming ours are a great deal better. (laughs) >> Well, this is why I think this is a modern problem. Like, the young people I talk to are like, "Why do we have this rules?" They're all lawyers that got into these positions of Congress on the American side, and so with the American JEDI Contract you guys have been following very closely is, it's been like the old school Oracle, IBM, and then Amazon is leading with an innovative solution, and Microsoft has come in and re-pivoted. And so what you have is a fight for the digital future of citizenship! And I think what's happening is that we're in a massive societal transition, where the people in charge don't know what the hell they're talkin' about, technically. And they don't know who to tap to solve the problems, or even shape or frame the problems. Now, there's pockets of people that are workin' on it, but to me as someone who looks at this saying, it's a pretty simple solution, no one's ever seen this before. So, there's a metaphor you can draw, but it's a completely different problem space because it's, this is all digital, data's involved. >> We've got a lobbyists out there, and we've got some tech firms spending an enormous amount of lobbying. If those lobbyists aren't trying to steer their representatives in the right direction to come up with law that aren't going to massively undermine trade and data sharing between Europe and America, then they're making a big mistake, because we got here through some really dumb lawmaking in the U.S., I mean, there are none of the laws in Europe that are a problem here. 'Cause GDPR isn't a great difference, a great deal different from some of the laws that we have already in California and elsewhere. >> Bill, Bill. >> The laws that are at issue here -- >> Bill, Bill! You have to like, back up a little bit from that rhetoric that EU is perfect and U.S. is not, that's not true actually. >> I'm not saying we're perfect! >> No, no, you say that all the time. >> But I'm saying there's a massive lack of innovation. Yeah, yeah. >> I don't, I've never said it! >> Arm wrestle! >> Yes, yes. >> When I'm being critical of some of the dumb laws in the U.S, (Sarbjeet laughing) I'm not saying Europe is perfect. What we're trying to say is that in this particular instance, I said there was an equal balance here between meaningful protection and the maximization of economic and social value. On the meaningful protection side, America's got it very wrong in terms of the meaningful protection it provides to civil European data. On the maximization of economic and social value, I think Europe's got it wrong. I think there are a lot of things we could do in Europe to actually have far more innovation. >> Yeah. >> It's a cultural issue. The Germans want rules, that's what they crave for. America's the other way, we don't want rules, I mean, pretty much is a rebel society. And that's kind of the ethos of most tech companies. But I think you know, to me the media, there's two things that go on with this tech business. The company's themselves have to be checked by say, government, and I believe in not a lot of regulation, but enough to check the power of bad actors. Media so called "checking power", both of these major roles, they don't really know what they're talking about, and this is back to the education piece. The people who are in the media so called "checking power" and the government checking power assume that the companies are bad. Right, so yeah, because eight out of ten companies like Amazon, actually try to do good things. If you don't know what good is, you don't really, (laughs) you know, you're in the wrong game. So, I think media and government have a huge education opportunity to look at this because they don't even know what they're measuring. >> I support the level of innovation -- >> I think we're unreeling from the globalization. Like, we are undoing the globalization, and that these are the side effects, these conflicts are a side effect of that. >> Yeah, so all I'm saying is I support the focus on innovation in America, and that has driven an enormous amount of wealth and value. What I'm questioning here is do you really need to spy on us, your allies, in order to help that innovation? And I'm starting to, I mean, do you need mass surveillance of your allies? I mean, I can see you may want to have some surveillance of people who are a threat to you, but wait, guys, we're meant to be on your side, and you haven't been treating our privacy with a great deal of respect! >> You know, Saudi Arabia was our ally. You know, 9/11 happened because of them, their people, right? There is no ally here, and there is no enemy, in a way. We don't know where the rogue actors are sitting, like they don't know, they can be within the walls -- >> It's well understood I think, I agree, sorry. it's well understood that nation states are enabling terrorist groups to take out cyber attacks. That's well known, the source enables it. So, I think there's the privacy versus -- >> I'm not sure it's true in your case that it's Europeans that's doing this though. >> No, no, well you know, they share -- >> I'm a former officer in the Royal Navy, I've stood shoulder to shoulder with my U.S. counterparts. I put my life on the line on NATO exercises in real war zones, and I'm now a disabled ex-serviceman as a result of that. I mean, if I put my line on the line shoulder to shoulder with Americans, why is my privacy not respected? >> Hold on -- >> I feel it's, I was going to say actually that it's not that, like even the U.S., right? Part of the spying internally is we have internal actors that are behaving poorly. >> Yeah. >> Right, we have Marxist organizations posing as, you know, whatever it is, I'll leave it at that. But my point being is we've got a lot of that, every country has that, every country has actors and citizens and people in the system that are destined to try to overthrow the system. And I think that's what that surveillance is about. The question is, we don't have treaties, or we didn't have your explicit agreements. And that's why I'm pushing really hard here, like, they're separating privacy versus security, which is the national security, and privacy versus us as citizens in terms of our data being basically taken over for free, being used for free. >> John: I agree with that. >> That I think we have some agreement on. I just think that our governments haven't really had that conversation about what surveillance means. Maybe someone agreed and said, "Okay, that's fine. You guys can go do that, we won't tell anybody." And that's what it feels like. And I don't think we deliberately are saying, "Hey, we wanted to spy on your citizens." I think someone said, "Hey, there's a benefit here too." Otherwise I don't think the EU would have let this happen for that long unless Max had made that case and started this ball rolling, so, and Edward Snowden and other folks. >> Yeah, and I totally support the need for security. >> I want to enter the -- >> I mean we need to, where there are domestic terrorists, we need to stop them, and we need to have local action in UK to stop it happening here, and in America to stop it happening there. But if we're doing that, there is absolutely no need for the Americans to be spying on us. And there's absolutely no need for the Americans to say that privacy applies to U.S. citizens only, and not to Europeans, these are daft, it's just daft! >> That's a fair point. I'm sure GCHQ and everyone else has this covered, I mean I'm sure they do. (laughs) >> Oh, Bill, I know, I've been involved, I've been involved, and I know for a fact the U.S. and the UK are discussing I know a company called IronNet, which is run by General Keith Alexander, funded by C5 Capital. There's a lot of collaboration, because again, they're tryin' to get their arms around how to frame it. And they all agree that sharing data for the security side is super important, right? And I think IronNet has this thing called Iron Dome, which is essentially like they're saying, hey, we'll just consistency around the rules of shared data, and we can both, everyone can have their own little data. So, I think there's recognition at the highest levels of some smart people on both countries. (laughs) "Hey, let's work together!" The issue I have is just policy, and I think there's a lot of clustering going on. Clustered here around just getting out of their own way. That's my take on that. >> Are we a PG show? Wait, are we a PG show? I just got to remember that. (laughs) (Bill laughing) >> It's the internet, there's no regulation, there's no rules! >> There's no regulation! >> The European rules or is it the American rules? (Ray laughing) >> I would like to jump back quickly to the purpose of the surveillance, and especially when mass surveillance is done under the cover of national security and terror prevention. I worked with five clients in the past decade who all have been targeted under mass surveillance, which was revealed by Edward Snowden, and when they did their own investigation, and partially was confirmed by Edward Snowden in person, they found out that their purchasing department, their engineering department, big parts of their pricing data was targeted in mass surveillance. There's no way that anyone can explain me that that has anything to do with preventing terror attacks, or finding the bad guys. That is economical espionage, you cannot call it in any other way. And that was authorized by the same legislation that authorizes the surveillance for the right purposes. I'm all for fighting terror, and anything that can help us prevent terror from happening, I would be the first person to welcome it. But I do not welcome when that regulation is abused for a lot of other things under the cover of national interest. I understand -- >> Back to the lawmakers again. And again, America's been victim to the Chinese some of the individual properties, well documented, well known in tech circles. >> Yeah, but just 'cause the Chinese have targeted you doesn't give you free right to target us. >> I'm not saying that, but its abuse of power -- >> If the U.S. can sort out a little bit of reform, in the Senate and the House, I think that would go a long way to solving the issues that Europeans have right now, and a long way to sort of reaching a far better place from which we can all innovate and cooperate. >> Here's the challenge that I see. If you want to be instrumenting everything, you need a closed society, because if you have a free country like America and the UK, a democracy, you're open. If you're open, you can't stop everything, right? So, there has to be a trust, to your point, Bill. As to me that I'm just, I just can't get my arms around that idea of complete lockdown and data surveillance because I don't think it's gettable in the United States, like it's a free world, it's like, open. It should be open. But here we've got the grids, and we've got the critical infrastructure that should be protected. So, that's one hand. I just can't get around that, 'cause once you start getting to locking down stuff and measuring everything, that's just a series of walled gardens. >> So, to JD's point on the procurement data and pricing data, I have been involved in some of those kind of operations, and I think it's financial espionage that they're looking at, financial security, trying to figure out a way to track down capital flows and what was purchased. I hope that was it in your client's case, but I think it's trying to figure out where the money flow is going, more so than trying to understand the pricing data from competitive purposes. If it is the latter, where they're stealing the competitive information on pricing, and data's getting back to a competitor, that is definitely a no-no! But if it's really to figure out where the money trail went, which is what I think most of those financial analysts are doing, especially in the CIA, or in the FBI, that's really what that probably would have been. >> Yeah, I don't think that the CIA is selling the data to your competitors, as a company, to Microsoft or to Google, they're not selling it to each other, right? They're not giving it to each other, right? So, I think the one big problem I studied with FISA is that they get the data, but how long they can keep the data and how long they can mine the data. So, they should use that data as exhaust. Means like, they use it and just throw it away. But they don't, they keep mining that data at a later date, and FISA is only good for five years. Like, I learned that every five years we revisit that, and that's what happened this time, that we renewed it for six years this time, not five, for some reason one extra year. So, I think we revisit all these laws -- >> Could be an election cycle. >> Huh? >> Could be an election cycle maybe. (laughs) >> Yes, exactly! So, we revisit all these laws with Congress and Senate here periodically just to make sure that they are up to date, and that they're not infringing on human rights, or citizen's rights, or stuff like that. >> When you say you update to check they're not conflicting with anything, did you not support that it was conflicting with Privacy Shield and some of the promises you made to Europeans? At what point did that fail to become obvious? >> It does, because there's heightened urgency. Every big incident happens, 9/11 caused a lot of new sort of like regulations and laws coming into the picture. And then the last time, that the Russian interference in our election, that created some sort of heightened urgency. Like, "We need to do something guys here, like if some country can topple our elections, right, that's not acceptable." So, yeah -- >> And what was it that your allies did that caused you to spy on us and to downgrade our privacy? >> I'm not expert on the political systems here. I think our allies are, okay, loose on their, okay, I call it village politics. Like, world is like a village. Like it's so only few countries, it's not millions of countries, right? That's how I see it, a city versus a village, and that's how I see the countries, like village politics. Like there are two camps, like there's Russia and China camp, and then there's U.S. camp on the other side. Like, we used to have Russia and U.S., two forces, big guys, and they managed the whole world balance somehow, right? Like some people with one camp, the other with the other, right? That's how they used to work. Now that Russia has gone, hold on, let me finish, let me finish. >> Yeah. >> Russia's gone, there's this void, right? And China's trying to fill the void. Chinese are not like, acting diplomatic enough to fill that void, and there's, it's all like we're on this imbalance, I believe. And then Russia becomes a rogue actor kind of in a way, that's how I see it, and then they are funding all these bad people. You see that all along, like what happened in the Middle East and all that stuff. >> You said there are different camps. We thought we were in your camp! We didn't expect to be spied on by you, or to have our rights downgraded by you. >> No, I understand but -- >> We thought we were on your side! >> But, but you have to guys to trust us also, like in a village. Let me tell you, I come from a village, that's why I use the villager as a hashtag in my twitter also. Like in village, there are usually one or two families which keep the village intact, that's our roles. >> Right. >> Like, I don't know if you have lived in a village or not -- >> Well, Bill, you're making some great statements. Where's the evidence on the surveillance, where can people find more information on this? Can you share? >> I think there's plenty of evidence, and I can send some stuff on, and I'm a little bit shocked given the awareness of the FISA Act, the Cloud Act, the fact that these things are in existence and they're not exactly unknown. And many people have been complaining about them for years. I mean, we've had Safe Harbor overturned, we've had Privacy Shield overturned, and these weren't just on a whim! >> Yeah, what does JD have in his hand? I want to know. >> The Edward Snowden book! (laughs) >> By Edward Snowden, which gives you plenty. But it wasn't enough, and it's something that we have to keep in mind, because we can always claim that whatever Edward Snowden wrote, that he made it up. Every publication by Edward Snowden is an avalanche of technical confirmation. One of the things that he described about the Cisco switches, which Bill prefers to quote every time, which is a proven case, there were bundles of researchers saying, "I told you guys!" Nobody paid attention to those researchers, and Edward Snowden was smart enough to get the mass media representation in there. But there's one thing, a question I have for Sabjeet, because in the two parties strategy, it is interesting that you always take out the European Union as part. And the European Union is a big player, and it will continue to grow. It has a growing amount of trade agreements with a growing amount of countries, and I still hope, and I think think Bill -- >> Well, I think the number of countries is reducing, you've just lost one! >> Only one. (Bill laughing loudly) Actually though, those are four countries under one kingdom, but that's another point. (Bill chortling heartily) >> Guys, final topic, 5G impact, 'cause you mentioned Cisco, couldn't help think about -- >> Let me finish please my question, John. >> Okay, go ahead. How would you the United States respond if the European Union would now legalize to spy on everybody and every company, and every governmental institution within the United States and say, "No, no, it's our privilege, we need that." How would the United States respond? >> You can try that and see economically what happens to you, that's how the village politics work, you have to listen to the mightier than you, and we are economically mightier, that's the fact. Actually it's hard to swallow fact for, even for anybody else. >> If you guys built a great app, I would use it, and surveil all you want. >> Yeah, but so this is going to be driven by the economics. (John laughing) But the -- >> That's exactly what John said. >> This is going to be driven by the economics here. The big U.S. cloud firms are got to find this ruling enormously difficult for them, and they are inevitably going to lobby for a level of reform. And I think a level of a reform is needed. Nobody on your side is actually arguing very vociferously that the Cloud Act and the discrimination against Europeans is actually a particularly good idea. The problem is that once you've done the reform, are we going to believe you when you say, "Oh, it's all good now, we've stopped it!" Because with Crypto AG scandal in Switzerland you weren't exactly honest about what you were doing. With the FISA courts, so I mean FISA secret courts, the secret warrants, how do we know and what proof can we have that you've stopped doing all these bad things? And I think one of the challenges, A, going to be the reform, and then B, got to be able to show that you actually got your act together and you're now clean. And until you can solve those two, many of your big tech companies are going to be at a competitive disadvantage, and they're going to be screaming for this reform. >> Well, I think that, you know, General Mattis said in his book about Trump and the United states, is that you need alliances, and I think your point about trust and executing together, without alliances, it really doesn't work. So, unless there's some sort of real alliance, (laughs) like understanding that there's going to be some teamwork here, (Bill laughing) I don't think it's going to go anywhere. So, otherwise it'll continue to be siloed and network based, right? So to the village point, if TikTok can become a massively successful app, and they're surveilling, so and then we have to decide that we're going to put up with that, I mean, that's not my decision, but that's what's goin' on here. It's like, what is TikTok, is it good or bad? Amazon sent out an email, and they've retracted it, that's because it went public. I guarantee you that they're talkin' about that at Amazon, like, "Why would we want infiltration by the Chinese?" And I'm speculating, I have no data, I'm just saying, you know. They email those out, then they pull it back, "Oh, we didn't mean to send that." Really, hmm? (laughs) You know, so this kind of -- >> But the TRA Balin's good, you always want to get TRA Balin out there. >> Yeah, exactly. There's some spying going on! So, this is the reality. >> So, John, you were talking about 5G, and I think you know, the role of 5G, you know, the battle between Cisco and Huawei, you just have to look at it this way, would you rather have the U.S. spy on you, or would you rather have China? And that's really your binary choice at this moment. And you know both is happening, and so the question is which one is better. Like, the one that you're in alliance with? The one that you're not in alliance with, the one that wants to bury you, and decimate your country, and steal all your secrets and then commercialize 'em? Or the one kind of does it, but doesn't really do it explicitly? So, you've got to choose. (laughs) >> It's supposed to be -- >> Or you can say no, we're going to create our own standard for 5G and kick both out, that's an option. >> It's probably not as straightforward a question as, or an answer to that question as you say, because if we were to fast-forward 50 years, I would argue that China is going to be the largest trading nation in the world. I believe that China is going to have the upper hand on many of these technologies, and therefore why would we not want to use some of their innovation, some of their technology, why would we not actually be more orientated around trading with them than we might be with the U.S.? I think the U.S. is throwing its weight around at this moment in time, but if we were to fast-forward I think looking in the longterm, if I had to put my money on Huawei or some of its competitors, I think given its level of investments in research and whatever, I think the better longterm bet is Huawei. >> No, no, actually you guys need to pick a camp. It's a village again. You have to pick a camp, you can't be with both guys. >> Global village. >> Oh, right, so we have to go with the guys that have been spying on us? >> How do you know the Chinese haven't been spying on you? (Ray and John laughing loudly) >> I think I'm very happy, you find a backdoor in the Huawei equipment and you show it to us, we'll take them to task on it. But don't start bullying us into making decisions based on what-ifs. >> I don't think I'm, I'm not qualified to represent the U.S., but what we would want to say is that if you look at the dynamics of what's going on, China, we've been studying that as well in terms of the geopolitical aspects of what happens in technology, they have to do what they're doing right now. Because in 20 years our population dynamics go like this, right? You've got the one child policy, and they won't have the ability to go out and fight for those same resources where they are, so what they're doing makes sense from a country perspective and country policy. But I think they're going to look like Japan in 20 years, right? Because the xenophobia, the lack of immigration, the lack of inside stuff coming in, an aging population. I mean, those are all factors that slow down your economy in the long run. And the lack of bringing new people in for ideas, I mean that's part of it, they're a closed system. And so I think the longterm dynamics of every closed system is that they tend to fail versus open systems. So, I'm not sure, they may have better technology along the way. But I think a lot of us are probably in the camp now thinking that we're not going to aid and abet them, in that sense to get there. >> You're competing a country with a company, I didn't say that China had necessarily everything rosy in its future, it'll be a bigger economy, and it'll be a bigger trading partner, but it's got its problems, the one child policy and the repercussions of that. But that is not one of the things, Huawei, I think Huawei's a massively unlimited company that has got a massive lead, certainly in 5G technology, and may continue to maintain a lead into 6G and beyond. >> Oh yeah, yeah, Huawei's done a great job on the 5G side, and I don't disagree with that. And they're ahead in many aspects compared to the U.S., and they're already working on the 6G technologies as well, and the roll outs have been further ahead. So, that's definitely -- >> And they've got a great backer too, the financer, the country China. Okay guys, (Ray laughing) let's wrap up the segment. Thanks for everyone's time. Final thoughts, just each of you on this core issue of the news that we discussed and the impact that was the conversation. What's the core issue? What should people think about? What's your solution? What's your opinion of how this plays out? Just final statements. We'll start with Bill, Ray, Sarbjeet and JD. >> All I'm going to ask you is stop spying on us, treat us equally, treat us like the allies that we are, and then I think we've got to a bright future together! >> John: Ray? >> I would say that Bill's right in that aspect in terms of how security agreements work, I think that we've needed to be more explicit about those. I can't represent the U.S. government, but I think the larger issue is really how do we view privacy, and how we do trade offs between security and convenience, and you know, what's required for personalization, and companies that are built on data. So, the sooner we get to those kind of rules, an understanding of what's possible, what's a consensus between different countries and companies, I think the better off we will all be a society. >> Yeah, I believe the most important kind of independence is the economic independence. Like, economically sound parties dictate the terms, that's what U.S. is doing. And the smaller countries have to live with it or pick the other bigger player, number two in this case is China. John said earlier, I think, also what JD said is the fine balance between national security and the privacy. You can't have, you have to strike that balance, because the rogue actors are sitting in your country, and across the boundaries of the countries, right? So, it's not that FISA is being fought by Europeans only. Our internal people are fighting that too, like how when you are mining our data, like what are you using it for? Like, I get concerned too, when you can use that data against me, that you have some data against me, right? So, I think it's the fine balance between security and privacy, we have to strike that. Awesome. JD? I'll include a little fake check, fact check, at the moment China is the largest economy, the European Union is the second largest economy, followed directly by the USA, it's a very small difference, and I recommend that these two big parties behind the largest economy start to collaborate and start to do that eye to eye, because if you want to balance the economical and manufacturing power of China, you cannot do that as being number two and number three. You have to join up forces, and that starts with sticking with the treaties that you signed, and that has not happened in the past, almost four years. So, let's go back to the table, let's work on rules where from both sides the rights and the privileges are properly reflected, and then do the most important thing, stick to them! >> Yep, I think that's awesome. I think I would say that these young kids in high school and college, they need to come up and solve the problems, this is going to be a new generational shift where the geopolitical landscape will change radically, you mentioned the top three there. And new alliances, new kinds of re-imagination has to be there, and from America's standpoint I'll just say that I'd like to see lawmakers have, instead of a LinkedIn handle, a GitHub handle. You know, when they all go out on campaign talk about what code they've written. So, I think having a technical background or some sort of knowledge of computer science and how the internet works with sociology and societal impact will be critical for our citizenships to advance. So, you know rather a lawyer, right so? (laughs) Maybe get some law involved in that, I mean the critical lawyers, but today most people are lawyers in American politics, but show me a GitHub handle of that congressman, that senator, I'd be impressed. So, that's what we need. >> Thanks, good night! >> Ray, you want to say something? >> I wanted to say something, because I thought the U.S. economy was 21 trillion, the EU is sittin' at about 16, and China was sitting about 14, but okay, I don't know. >> You need to do math man. >> Hey, we went over our 30 minutes time, we can do an hour with you guys, so you're still good. (laughs) >> Can't take anymore. >> No go on, get in there, go at it when you've got something to say. >> I don't think it's immaterial the exact size of the economy, I think that we're better off collaborating on even and fair terms, we are -- >> We're all better off collaborating. >> Yeah. >> Gentlemen -- >> But the collaboration has to be on equal and fair terms, you know. (laughs) >> How do you define fair, good point. Fair and balanced, you know, we've got the new -- >> We did define fair, we struck a treaty! We absolutely defined it, absolutely! >> Yeah. >> And then one side didn't stick to it. >> We will leave it right there, and we'll follow up (Bill laughing) in a later conversation. Gentlemen, you guys are good. Thank you. (relaxing electronic music)