(light music) >> Narrator: theCUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies. Creating technologies that drive human progress. (upbeat music) >> Welcome back to Spain everyone. Lisa Martin here with theCUBE Dave Vellante, my co-host for the next four days. We're live in Barcelona, covering MWC23. This is only day one, but I'll tell you the theme of this conference this year is velocity. And I don't know about you Dave, but this day is flying by already. This is ecosystem day. We're going to have a great discussion on the ecosystem next. >> Well we're seeing the disaggregation of the hardened telco stack, and that necessitates an ecosystem open- we're going to talk about Open RAN, we've been talking about even leading up to the show. It's a critical technology enabler and it's compulsory to have an ecosystem to support that. >> Absolutely compulsory. We've got two guests here joining us, Gautam Bhagra, Vice President partnerships at Dell, and Scott Walker, Vice President of global Telco ecosystem at Wind River. Guys, welcome to the program. >> Nice to be here. >> Thanks For having us. >> Thanks for having us. >> So you've got some news, this is day one of the conference, there's some news, Gautam, and let's start with you, unpack it. >> Yeah, well there's a lot of news, as you know, on Dell World. One of the things we are very excited to announce today is the launch of the Open Telecom Ecosystems Community. I think Dave, as you mentioned, getting into an Open RAN world is a challenge. And we know some of the challenges that our customers face. To help solve for those challenges, Dell wants to work with like-minded partners and customers to build innovative solutions, and join go-to-market. So we are launching that today. Wind River is one of our flagship partners for that, and I'm excited to be here to talk about that as well. >> Can you guys talk a little bit about the partnership, maybe a little bit about Wind River so the audience gets that context? >> Sure, absolutely, and the theme of the show, Velocity, is what this partnership is all about. We create velocity for operators if they want to adopt Open RAN, right? We simplify it. Wind River as a company has been around for 40 years. We were part of Intel at one point, and now we're independent, owned by a company called Aptiv. And with that we get another round of investment to help continue our acceleration into this market. So, the Dell partnership is about, like I said, velocity, accelerating the adoption. When we talk to operators, they have told us there are many roadblocks that they face, right? Like systems integration, operating at scale. 'Cause when you buy a traditional radio access network solution from a single supplier, it's very easy. It's works, it's been tested. When you break these components apart and disaggregate 'em, as we talked about David, it creates integration points and support issues, right? And what Dell and Wind River have done together is created a cloud infrastructure solution that could host a variety of RAN workloads, and essentially create a two layer cake. What we're, overall, what we're trying to do is create a traditional RAN experience, with the innovation agility and flexibility of Open RAN. And that's really what this partnership does. >> So these work, this workload innovation is interesting to me because you've got now developers, you know, the, you know, what's the telco developer look like, you know, is to be defined, right? I mean it's like this white sheet of paper that can create all this innovation. And to do that, you've got to have, as I said earlier, an ecosystem. But you've got now, I'm interested in your Open RAN agenda and how you see that sort of maturity model taking place. 'Cause today, you got disruptors that are going to lean right in say "Hey, yeah, that's great." The traditional carriers, they have to have a, you know, they have to migrate, they have to have a hybrid world. We know that takes time. So what's that look like in the marketplace today? >> Yeah, so I mean, I can start, right? So from a Dell's perspective, what we see in the market is yes, there is a drive towards, everyone understands the benefits of being open, right? There's the agility piece, the innovation piece. That's a no-brainer. The question is how do we get there? And I think that's where partnerships become critical to get there, right? So we've been working with partners like Wind River to build solutions that make it easier for customers to start adopting some of the foundational elements of an open network. The, one of the purposes in the agenda of building this community is to bring like-minded developers, like you said like we want those guys to come and work with the customers to create new solutions, and come up with something creative, which no one's even thought about, that accelerates your option even quicker, right? So that's exactly what we want to do as well. And that's one of the reasons why we launched the community. >> Yeah, and what we find with a lot of carriers, they are used to buying, like I said, traditional RAN solutions which are provided from a single provider like Erickson or Nokia and others, right? And we break this apart, and you cloudify that network infrastructure, there's usually a skills gap we see at the operator level, right? And so from a developer standpoint, they struggle with having the expertise in order to execute on that. Wind River helps them, working with companies like Dell, simplify that bottom portion of the stack, the infrastructure stack. So, and we lifecycle manage it, we test- we're continually testing it, and integrating it, so that the operator doesn't have to do that. In addition to that, wind River also has a history and legacy of working with different RAN vendors, both disruptors like Mavenir and Parallel Wireless, as well as traditional RAN providers like Samsung, Erickson, and others soon to be announced. So what we're doing on the northbound side is making it easy by integrating that, and on the southbound side with Dell, so that again, instead of four or five solutions that you need to put together, it's simply two. >> And you think about today how we- how you consume telco services are like there's these fixed blocks of services that you can buy, that has to change. It's more like the, the app stores. It's got to be an open marketplace, and that's where the innovation's going to come in, you know, from the developers, you know, top down maybe. I don't know, how do you see that maturity model evolving? People want to know how long it's going to take. So many questions, when will Open RAN be as reliable. Does it even have to be? You know, so many interesting dynamics going on. >> Yeah, and I think that's something we at Dell are also trying to find out, right? So we have been doing a lot of good work here to help our customers move in that direction. The work with Dish is an example of that. But I think we do understand the challenges as well in terms of getting, adopting the technologies, and adopting the innovation that's being driven by Open. So one of the agendas that we have as a company this year is to work with the community to drive this a lot further, right? We want to have customers adopt the technology more broadly with the tier one, tier two telcos globally. And our sales organizations are going to be working together with Wind Rivers to figure out who's the right set of customers to have these conversations with, so we can drop, drive, start driving this agenda a lot quicker than what we've seen historically. >> And where are you having those customer conversations? Is that at the operator level, is it higher, is it both? >> Well, all operators are deploying 5G in preparation for 6G, right? And we're all looking for those killer use cases which will drive top line revenue and not just make it a TCO discussion. And that starts at a very basic level today by doing things like integrating with Juniper, for their cloud router. So instead of at the far edge cell site, having a separate device that's doing the routing function, right? We take that and we cloudify that application, run it on the same server that's hosting the RAN applications, so you eliminate a device and reduce TCO. Now with Aptiv, which is primarily known as an automotive company, we're having lots of conversations, including with Dell and Intel and others about vehicle to vehicle communication, vehicle to anything communication. And although that's a little bit futuristic, there are shorter term use cases that, like, vehicle to vehicle accident avoidance, which are going to be much nearer term than autonomous driving, for example, which will help drive traffic and new revenue streams for operators. >> So, oh, that's, wow. So many other things (Scott laughs) that's just opened up there too. But I want to come back to, sort of, the Open RAN adoption. And I think you're right, there's a lot of questions that that still have to be determined. But my question is this, based on your knowledge so far does it have to be as hardened and reliable, obviously has to be low latency as existing networks, or can flexibility, like the cloud when it first came out, wasn't better than enterprise IT, it was just more flexible and faster, and you could rent it. And, is there a similar dynamic here where it doesn't have to replicate the hardened stack, it can bring in new benefits that drive adoption, what are your thoughts on that? >> Well there's a couple of things on that, because Wind River, as you know, where our legacy and history is in embedded devices like F-15 fighter jets, right? Or the Mars Rover or the James Web telescope, all run Wind River software. So, we know about can't fail ultra reliable systems, and operators are not letting us off the hook whatsoever. It has to be as hardened and locked down, as secure as a traditional RAN environment. Otherwise they will (indistinct). >> That's table stakes. >> That's table stakes that gets us there. And when River, with our legacy and history, and having operator experience running live commercial networks with a disaggregated stack in the tens of thousands of nodes, understand what this is like because they're running live commercial traffic with live customers. So we can't fail, right? And with that, they want their cake and eat it too, right? Which is, I want ultra reliable, I want what I have today, but I want the agility and flexibility to onboard third party apps. Like for example, this JCNR, this Juniper Cloud-Native Router. You cannot do something as simple as that on a traditional RAN Appliance. In an open ecosystem you can take that workload and onboard it because it is an open ecosystem, and that's really one of the true benefits. >> So they want the mainframe, but they want (Scott laughs) the flexibility of the developer cloud, right? >> That's right. >> They want their, have their cake eat it too and not gain weight. (group laughs) >> Yeah I mean David, I come from the public cloud world. >> We all don't want to do that. >> I used to work with a public cloud company, and nine years ago, public cloud was in the same stage, where you would go to a bank, and they would be like, we don't trust the cloud. It's not secure, it's not safe. It was the digital natives that adopted it, and that that drove the industry forward, right? And that's where the enterprises that realized that they're losing business because of all these innovative new companies that came out. That's what I saw over the last nine years in the cloud space. I think in the telco space also, something similar might happen, right? So a lot of this, I mean a lot of the new age telcos are understanding the value, are looking to innovate are adopting the open technologies, but there's still some inertia and hesitancy, for the reasons as Scott mentioned, to go there so quickly. So we just have to work through and balance between both sides. >> Yeah, well with that said, if there's still some inertia, but there's a theme of velocity, how do you help organizations balance that so they trust evolving? >> Yeah, and I think this is where our solution, like infrastructure block, is a foundational pillar to make that happen, right? So if we can take away the concerns that the organizations have in terms of security, reliability from the fundamental elements that build their infrastructure, by working with partners like Wind River, but Dell takes the ownership end-to-end to make sure that service works and we have those telco grade SLAs, then the telcos can start focusing on what's next. The applications and the customer services on the top. >> Customer service customer experience. >> You know, that's an interesting point Gautam brings up, too, because support is an issue too. We all talk about when you break these things apart, it creates integration points that you need to manage, right? But there's also, so the support aspect of it. So imagine if you will, you had one vendor, you have an outage, you call that one vendor, one necktie to choke, right, for accountability for the network. Now you have four or five vendors that you have to work. You get a lot of finger pointing. So at least at the infrastructure layer, right? Dell takes first call support for both the hardware infrastructure and the Wind River cloud infrastructure for both. And we are training and spinning them up to support, but we're always behind them of course as well. >> Can you give us a favorite customer example of- that really articulates the value of the partnership and the technologies that it's delivering to customers? >> Well, Infra Block- >> (indistinct) >> Is quite new, and we do have our first customer which is LG U plus, which was announced yesterday. Out of Korea, small customer, but a very important one. Okay, and I think they saw the value of the integrated system. They don't have the (indistinct) expertise and they're leveraging Dell and Wind River in order to make that happen. But I always also say historically before this new offering was Vodafone, right? Vodafone is a leader in Europe in terms of Open RAN, been very- Yago and Paco have been very vocal about what they're doing in Open RAN, and Dell and Wind River have been there with them every step of the way. And that's what I would say, kind of, led up to where we are today. We learned from engagements like Vodafone and I think KDDI as well. And it got us where we are today and understanding what the operators need and what the impediments are. And this directly addresses that. >> Those are two very different examples. You were talking about TCO before. I mean, so the earlier example is, that's an example to me of a disruptor. They'll take some chances, you know, maybe not as focused on TCO, of course they're concerned about it. Vodafone I would think very concerned about TCO. But I'm inferring from your comments that you're trying to get the industry, you're trying to check the TCO box, get there. And then move on to higher levels of value monetization. The TCO is going to come down to how many humans it takes to run the network, is it not, is that- >> Well a lot of, okay- >> Or is it devices- >> So the big one now, particularly with Vodafone, is energy cost, right? >> Of course, greening the network. >> Two-thirds of the energy consumption in RAN is the the Radio Access Network. Okay, the OPEX, right? So any reductions, even if they're 5% or 10%, can save tens or hundreds of millions of dollars. So we do things creatively with Dell to understand if there's a lot of traffic at the cell site and if it's not, we will change the C state or P state of the server, which basically spins it down, so it's not consuming power. But that's just at the infrastructure layer. Where this gets really powerful is working with the RAN vendors like Samsung and Ericson and others, and taking data from the traffic information there, applying algorithms to that in AI to shut it down and spin it back up as needed. 'Cause the idea is you don't want that thing powered up if there's no traffic on it. >> Well there's a sustainability, ESG, benefit to that, right? >> Yes. >> And, and it's very compute intensive. >> A hundred percent. >> Which is great for Dell. But at the same time, if you're not able to manage that power consumption, the whole thing fails. I mean it's, because there's going to be so much data, and such a intense requirement. So this is a huge issue. Okay, so Scott, you're saying that in the TCO equation, a big chunk is energy consumption? >> On the OPEX piece. Now there's also the CapEx, right? And Open RAN solutions are now, what we've heard from our customers today, are they're roughly at parity. 'Cause you can do things like repurpose servers after the useful life for a lower demand application which helps the TCO, right? Then you have situations like Juniper, where you can take, now software that runs on the same device, eliminating at a whole other device at the cell site. So we're not just taking a server and software point of view, we're taking a whole cell site point of view as it relates to both CapEx and OPEX. >> And then once that infrastructure it really gets adopted, that's when the innovation occurs. The ecosystem comes in. Developers now start to think of new applications that we haven't thought of yet. >> Gautam: Exactly. >> And that's where, that's going to force the traditional carriers to respond. They're responding, but they're doing so very carefully right now, it's understandable why. >> Yeah, and I think you're already seeing some news in the, I mean Nokia's announcement yesterday with the rebranding, et cetera. That's all positive momentum in my opinion, right? >> What'd you think of the logo? >> I love the logo. >> I liked it too. (group laughs) >> It was beautiful. >> I thought it was good. You had the connectivity down below, You need pipes, right? >> Exactly. >> But you had this sort of cool letters, and then the the pink horizon or pinkish, it was like (Scott laughs) endless opportunity. It was good, I thought it was well thought out. >> Exactly. >> Well, you pick up on an interesting point there, and what we're seeing, like advanced carriers like Dish, who has one of the true Open RAN networks, publishing APIs for programmers to build in their 5G network as part of the application. But we're also seeing the network equipment providers also enable carriers do that, 'cause carriers historically have not been advanced in that way. So there is a real recognition that in order for these networks to monetize new use cases, they need to be programmable, and they need to publish standard APIs, so you can access the 5G network capabilities through software. >> Yeah, and the problem from the carriers, there's not enough APIs that the carriers have produced yet. So that's where the ecosystem comes in, is going to >> A hundred percent >> I think there's eight APIs that are published out of the traditional carriers, which is, I mean there's got to be 8,000 for a marketplace. So that's where the open ecosystem really has the advantage. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> Yeah. >> So it all makes sense on paper, now you just, you got a lot of work to do. >> We got to deliver. Yeah, we launched it today. We got to get some like-minded partners and customers to come together. You'll start seeing results coming out of this hopefully soon, and we'll talk more about it over time. >> Dave: Great Awesome, thanks for sharing with us. >> Excellent. Guys, thank you for sharing, stopping by, sharing what's going on with Dell and Wind River, and why the opportunity's in it for customers and the technological evolution. We appreciate it, you'll have to come back, give us an update. >> Our pleasure, thanks for having us. (Group talks over each other) >> All right, thanks guys >> Appreciate it. >> For our guests and for Dave Vellante, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE, Live from MWC23 in Barcelona. theCUBE is the leader in live tech coverage. (upbeat music)

>> (bright music) >> Narrator: The Cube, presents Kubecon and Cloudnativecon, year of 2022, brought to you by Red Hat, the cloud native computing foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Now what we're opening. Welcome to Valencia, Spain in Kubecon Cloudnativecon, Europe, 2022. I'm Keith Townsend, along with my host, Paul Gillin, who is the senior editor for architecture at Silicon angle, Paul. >> Keith you've been asking me questions all these last two days. Let me ask you one. You're a traveling man. You go to a lot of conferences. What's different about this one. >> You know what, we're just talking about that pre-conference, open source conferences are usually pretty intimate. This is big. 7,500 people talking about complex topics, all in one big area. And then it's, I got to say it's overwhelming. It's way more. It's not focused on a single company's product or messaging. It is about a whole ecosystem, very different show. >> And certainly some of the best t-shirts I've ever seen. And our first guest, Jim has one of the better ones. >> I mean a bit cockroach come on, right. >> Jim Walker, principal product evangelist at CockroachDB and Christian Huning, tech director of cloud technologies at Finleap Connect, a financial services company that's based out of Germany, now offering services in four countries now. >> Basically all over Europe. >> Okay. >> But we are in three countries with offices. >> So you're CockroachDB customer and I got to ask the obvious question. Databases are hard and started the company in 2015 CockroachDB, been a customer since 2019, I understand. Why take the risk on a four year old database. I mean that just sounds like a world of risk and trouble. >> So it was in 2018 when we joined the company back then and we did this cloud native transformation, that was our task basically. We had very limited amount of time and we were faced with a legacy infrastructure and we needed something that would run in a cloud native way and just blend in with everything else we had. And the idea was to go all in with Kubernetes. Though early days, a lot of things were alpha beta, and we were running on mySQL back then. >> Yeah. >> On a VM, kind of small setup. And then we were looking for something that we could just deploy in Kubernetes, alongside with everything else. And we had to stack and we had to duplicate it many times. So also to maintain that we wanted to do it all the same like with GitOps and everything and Cockroach delivered that proposition. So that was why we evaluate the risk of relatively early adopting that solution with the proposition of having something that's truly cloud native and really blends in with everything else we do in the same way was something we considered, and then we jumped the leap of faith and >> The fin leap of faith >> The fin leap of faith. Exactly. And we were not dissatisfied. >> So talk to me a little bit about the challenges because when we think of MySQL, MySQL scales to amazing sizes, it is the de facto database for many cloud based architectures. What problems were you running into with MySQL? >> We were running into the problem that we essentially, as a finTech company, we are regulated and we have companies, customers that really value running things like on-prem, private cloud, on-prem is a bit of a bad word, maybe. So it's private cloud, hybrid cloud, private cloud in our own data centers in Frankfurt. And we needed to run it in there. So we wanted to somehow manage that and with, so all of the managed solution were off the table, so we couldn't use them. So we needed something that ran in Kubernetes because we only wanted to maintain Kubernetes. We're a small team, didn't want to use also like full blown VM solution, of sorts. So that was that. And the other thing was, we needed something that was HA distributable somehow. So we also looked into other solutions back at the time, like Vitis, which is also prominent for having a MySQL compliant interface and great solution. We also got into work, but we figured, this is from the scale, and from the sheer amount of maintenance it would need, we couldn't deliver that, we were too small for that. So that's where then Cockroach just fitted in nicely by being able to distribute BHA, be resilient against failure, but also be able to scale out because we had this problem with a single MySQL deployment to not really, as it grew, as the data amounts grew, we had trouble to operatively keep that under control. >> So Jim, every time someone comes to me and says, I have a new database, I think we don't need it, yet another database. >> Right. >> What problem, or how does CockroachDB go about solving the types of problems that Christian had? >> Yeah. I mean, Christian laid out why it exists. I mean, look guys, building a database isn't easy. If it was easy, we'd have a database for every application, but you know, Michael Stonebraker, kind of godfather of all database says it himself, it takes seven, eight years for a database to fully gestate to be something that's like enterprise ready and kind of, be relied upon. We've been billing for about seven, eight years. I mean, I'm thankful for people like Christian to join us early on to help us kind of like troubleshoot and go through some things. We're building a database, it's not easy. You're right. But building a distributor system is also not easy. And so for us, if you look at what's going on in just infrastructure in general, what's happening in Kubernetes, like this whole space is Kubernetes. It's all about automation. How do I automate scale? How do I automate resilience out of the entire equation of what we're actually doing? I don't want to have to think about active passive systems. I don't want to think about sharding a database. Sure you can scale MySQL. You know, how many people it takes to run three or four shards of MySQL database. That's not automation. And I tell you what, this world right now with the advances in data how hard it is to find people who actually understand infrastructure to hire them. This is why this automation is happening, because our systems are more complex. So we started from the very beginning to be something that was very different. This is a cloud native database. This is built with the same exact principles that are in Kubernetes. In fact, like Kubernetes it's kind of a spawn of borg, the back end of Google. We are inspired by Spanner. I mean, this started by three engineers that worked at Google, are frustrated, they didn't have the tools, they had at Google. So they built something that was, outside of Google. And how do we give that kind of Google like infrastructure for everybody. And that's, the advent of Cockroach and kind of why we're doing, what we're doing. >> As your database has matured, you're now beginning a transition or you're in a transition to a serverless version. How are you doing that without disrupting the experience for existing customers? And why go serverless at all? >> Yeah, it's interesting. So, you know, serverless was, it was kind of a an R&D project for us. And when we first started on a path, because I think you know, ultimately what we would love to do for the database is let's not even think about database, Keith. Like, I don't want to think about the database. What we're building too is, we want a SQL API in the cloud. That's it. I don't want to think about scale. I don't want to think about upgrades. I literally like. that stuff should just go away. That's what we need, right. As developers, I don't want to think about isolation levels or like, you know, give me DML and I want to be able to communicate. And for us the realization of that vision is like, if we're going to put a database on the planet for everybody to actually use it, we have to be really, really efficient. And serverless, which I believe really should be infrastructure less because I don't think we should be thinking of just about service. We got to think about, how do I take the context of regions out of this thing? How do I take the context of cloud providers out of what we're talking about? Let's just not think about that. Let's just code against something. Serverless was the answer. Now we've been building for about a year and a half. We launched a serverless version of Cockroach last October and we did it so that everybody in the public could have a free version of a database. And that's what serverless allows us to do. It's all consumption based up to certain limits and then you pay. But I think ultimately, and we spoke a little bit about this at the very beginning. I think as ISVs, people who are building software today the serverless vision gets really interesting because I think what's on the mind of the CTO is, how do I drive down my cost to the cloud provider? And if we can basically, drive down costs through either making things multi-tenant and super efficient, and then optimizing how much compute we use, spinning things down to zero and back up and auto scaling these sort of things in our software. We can start to make changes in the way that people are thinking about spend with the cloud provider. And ultimately we did that, so we could do things for free. >> So, Jim, I think I disagree Christian, I'm sorry, Jim. I think I disagree with you just a little bit. Christian, I think the biggest challenge facing CTOs are people. >> True. >> Getting the people to worry about cost and spend and implementation. So as you hear the concepts of CoachDB moving to a serverless model, and you're a large customer how does that make you think or react to your people side of your resources? >> Well, I can say that from the people side of resources luckily Cockroach is our least problem. So it just kind of, we always said, it's an operator stream because that was the part that just worked for us, so. >> And it's worked as you have scaled it? without you having ... >> Yeah. I mean, we use it in a bit of a, we do not really scale out like the Cockroach, like really large. It's like, more that we use it with the enterprise features of encryption in the stack and our customers then demand. If they do so, we have the Zas offering and we also do like dedicated stacks. So by having a fully cloud native solution on top of Kubernetes, as the foundational layer we can just use that and stamp it out and deploy it. >> How does that translate into services you can provide your customers? Are there services you can provide customers that you couldn't have, if you were running, say, MySQL? >> No, what we do is, we run this, so the SAS offering runs in our hybrid private cloud. And the other thing that we offer is that we run the entire stack at a cloud provider of their choosing. So if they are an AWS, they give us an AWS account, we put it in there. Theoretically, we could then also talk about using the serverless variant, if they like so, but it's not strictly required for us. >> So Christian, talk to me about that provisioning process because if I had a MySQL deployment before I can imagine how putting that into a cloud native type of repeatable CICD pipeline or Ansible script that could be difficult. Talk to me about that. How CockroachDB enables you to create new onboarding experiences for your customers? >> So what we do is, we use helm charts all over the place as probably everybody else. And then each application team has their parts of services, they've packaged them to helm charts, they've wrapped us in a super chart that gets wrapped into the super, super chart for the entire stack. And then at the right place, somewhere in between Cockroach is added, where it's a dependency. And as they just offer a helm chart that's as easy as it gets. And then what the teams do is they have an inner job, that once you deploy all that, it would spin up. And as soon as Cockroach is ready it's just the same reconcile loop as everything. It will then provision users, set up database schema, do all that. And initialize, initial data sets that might be required for a new setup. So with that setup, we can spin up a new cluster and then deploy that stack chart in there. And it takes some time. And then it's done. >> So talk to me about life cycle management. Because when I have one database, I have one schema. When I have a lot of databases I have a lot of different schemas. How do you keep your stack consistent across customers? >> That is basically part of the same story. We have get offs all over the place. So we have this repository, we see the super helm chart versions and we maintain like minus three versions and ensure that we update the customers and keep them up to date. It's part of the contract sometimes, down to the schedule of the customer at times. And Cockroach nicely supports also, these updates with these migrations in the background, the schema migrations in the background. So we use in our case, in that integration SQL alchemy, which is also nicely supported. So there was also part of the story from MySQL to Postgres, was supported by the ORM, these kind of things. So the skill approach together with the ease of helm charts and the background migrations of the schema is a very seamless upgrade operations. Before that we had to have downtime. >> That's right, you could have online schema changes. Upgrading the database uses the same concept of rolling upgrades that you have in Kubernetes. It's just cloud native. It just fits that same context, I think. >> Christian: It became a no-brainer. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Jim, you mentioned the idea of a SQL API in the cloud, that's really interesting. Why does such a thing not exist? >> Because it's really difficult to build. You know, SQL API, what does that mean? Like, okay. What I'm going to, where does that endpoint live? Is there one in California one on the east coast, one in Europe, one in Asia? Okay. And I'm asking that endpoint for data. Where does that data live? Can you control where data lives on the planet? Because ultimately what we're fighting in software today in a lot of these situations is the speed of light. And so how do you intelligently place data on this planet? So that, you know, when you're asking for data, when you're maybe home, it's a different latency than when you're here in Valencia. Does that data follow and move you? These are really, really difficult problems to solve. And I think that we're at that layer of, we're at this moment in time in software engineering, we're solving some really interesting, interesting things cause we are budding against this speed of light problem. And ultimately that's one of the biggest challenges. But underneath, it has to have all this automation like the ease at which we can scale this database like the always on resilient, the way that we can upgrade the entire thing with just rolling upgrades. The cloud native concepts is really what's enabling us to do things at global scale it's automation. >> Let's alk about that speed of light in global scale. There's no better conference for speed of light, for scale, than Kubecon. Any predictions coming out of the show? >> It's less a prediction for me and more of an observation, you guys. Like look at two years ago, when we were here in Barcelona at QCon EU, it was a lot of hype. It's a lot of hype, a lot of people walking around, curious, fascinated, this is reality. The conversations that I'm having with people today, there's a reality. There's people really doing, they're becoming cloud native. And to me, I think what we're going to see over the next two to three years is people start to adopt this kind of distributed mindset. And it permeates not just within infrastructure but it goes up into the stack. We'll start to see much more developers using, Go and these kind of the threaded languages, because I think that distributed mindset, if it starts at the chip all the way to the fingertip of the person clicking and you're distributed everywhere in between. It is extremely powerful. And I think that's what Finleap, I mean, that's exactly what the team is doing. And I think there's a lot of value and a lot of power in that. >> Jim, Christian, thank you so much for coming on the Cube and sharing your story. You know what we're past the hype cycle of Kubernetes, I agree. I was a nonbeliever in Kubernetes two, three years ago. It was mostly hype. We're looking at customers from Microsoft, Finleap and competitors doing amazing things with this platform and cloud native in general. Stay tuned for more coverage of Kubecon from Valencia, Spain. I'm Keith Townsend, along with Paul Gillin and you're watching the Cube, the leader in high tech coverage. (bright music)

(bright upbeat music) >> Hello, and welcome back to the DockerCon 2021 virtual coverage. I'm John Furrie host of theCUBE here in Palo Alto with a remote interview with a great guest Cuban alumni, Jim Walker VP of Product Marketing at Cockroach Labs. Jim, great to see you remotely coming into theCUBE normally we're in person, soon we'll be back in real life. Great to see you. >> Great to see you as well John, I miss you. I miss senior live and in person. So this has got to do, I guess right? >> We we had the first multi-cloud event in New York city. You guys had was I think one of the last events that was going on towards the end of the year before the pandemic hit. So a lot's happened with Cockroach Labs over the past few years, accelerated growth, funding, amazing stuff here at DockerCon containerization of the world, containers everywhere and all places hybrid, pure cloud, edge everywhere. Give us the update what's going on with Cockroach Labs and then we'll get into what's going on at DockerCon. >> Yeah Cockroach Labs, this has been a pretty fun ride. I mean, I think about two and a half years now and John it's been phenomenal as the world kind of wakes up to a distributed systems and the containerization of everything. I'm happy we're at DockerCon talking about containerization 'cause I think it has radically changed the way we think about software, but more importantly it's starting to take hold. I think a lot of people would say, oh, it's already taken hold but if you start to think about like just, these kind of modern applications that are depending on data and what does containerization mean for the database? Well, Cockroach has got a pretty good story. I mean, gosh, before Escape I think the last time I talked to you, I was at CoreOS and we were playing the whole Kubernetes game and I remember Alex Povi talking about GIFEE Google infrastructure for everyone or for everyone else I should say. And I think that's what we've seen that kind of happened with the infrastructure layer but I think that last layer of infrastructure is the database. Like I really feel like the database is that dividing line between the business logic and infrastructure. And it's really exciting to see, just massive huge customers come to Cockroach to rethink what the database means in cloud, right? What does the database mean when we moved to distributed systems and that sort of thing, and so, momentum has been building here, we are, upwards of, oh gosh, over 300 paying customers now, thousands of Cockroach customers in the wild out there but we're seeing this huge massive attraction to CockroachCloud which is a great name. Come on, Johnny, you got to say, right? And our database as a service. So getting that out there and seeing the uptake there has just been, it's been phenomenal over the past couple of years. >> Yeah and you've got to love the Cockroach name, love it, survive nuclear war and winter all that good stuff as they say, but really the reality is that it's kind of an interesting play on words because one of the trends that we've been talking about, I mean, you and I've been telling this for years with our CUBE coverage around Amazon Web Services early on was very clear about a decade ago that there wasn't going to be one database to rule the world. They're going to many, many databases. And as you started getting into these cloud native deployments at scale, use your database of choice was the developer ethos just whatever it takes to get the job done. Now you start integrating this in a horizontally scalable way with the cloud, you have now new kinds of scale, cloud scale. And it kind of changed the game on the always on availability question which is how do I get high availability? How do I keep things running? And that is the number one developer challenge whether it's infrastructure as code, whether it's security shifting left, it all comes down to making sure stuff's running at scale and secure. Talk about that. >> Yeah, absolutely and it's interesting it's been, like I said, this journey in this arc towards distributed systems and truly like delivery of what people want in the cloud, it's been a long arc and it's been a long journey and I think we're getting to the point where people, they are starting to kind of bake resilience and scale into their applications and I think that's kind of this modern approach. Look we're taking legacy databases today. There are people are kind of lift and shift, move them into the cloud, try to run them there but they aren't just built for that infrastructure like the there's a fundamentally different approach and infrastructure when it talks, when you talk about cloud it's one of the reasons why John early on your conversations with the AWS Team and what they did, it's like, yeah, how do we give resilient and ubiquitous and always on scalable kind of infrastructure people. Well, that's great for those layers but when you start to get into the software that's running on these things, it isn't lift and shift and it's not even move and improve. You can't like just take a legacy system and change one piece of it to make it kind of take advantage of the scale and the resilience and the ubiquity of the cloud, because there's very very explicit challenges. For us, it's about re-architect and rebuild. Let's tear the database down and let's rethink it and build from the ground up to be cloud native. And I think the technologies that have done that, that have kind of built from scratch, to be cloud native are the ones that are I believe, three years from now that's what we're going to be talking about. I mean, this comes back to again, like the Genesis of what we did is Google Cloud Spanner. Spanner white paper and what Google did, they didn't build, they didn't use an existing database because they needed something for a transactional relational database. They hire a bunch of really incredible engineers, right? And I got like Jeff Dean and Sanjay Ghemawat over there, like designing and doing all these cool things, they build and I think that's what we're seeing and I think that's, to me the exciting part about data in the cloud as we move forward. >> Yeah, and I think the Google cloud infrastructure, everyone I think that's the same mindset for Amazon is that I want all the scale, but I don't want to do it like over 10 years I to do it now, which I love I want to get back to in a second, but I want to ask you specifically this definition of containerization of the database. I've heard that kicked around, love the concept. I kind of understand what it means but I want you to define it for us. What does it mean when someone says containerizing the database? >> Yeah, I mean, simply put the database in container and run it and that's all that I can think that's like, maybe step one I think that's kind of lift and shift. Let's put it in a container and run it somewhere. And that's not that hard to do. I think I could do that. I mean, I haven't coded in a long time but I think I could figure that out. It's when you start to actually have multiple instances of a container, right? And that's where things get really, really tricky. Now we're talking about true distributed systems. We're talking about how do you coordinate data? How do you balance data across multiple instances of a database, right? How do you actually have fail over so that if one node goes down, a bunch of them are still available. How do you guarantee transactional consistency? You can't just have four instances of a database, all with the same information in it John without any sort of coordination, right? Like you hit one node and you hit another one in the same account which transaction wins. And so the concepts in distributed systems around there's this thing called the cap theorem, there's consistency, availability, and partition tolerance and actually understanding how these things work especially for data in distributed systems, to make sure that it's going to be consistent and available and you're going to scale those things are not simple to solve. And again, it comes back to this. I don't think you can do it with legacy database. You kind of have to re-architect and it comes down to where data is stored, it comes down to how it's replicated, it comes down to really ultimately where it's physically located. I think when you deploy a database you think about the logical model, right? You think about tables, and normalization and referential integrity. The physical location is extremely important as we kind of moved to that kind of containerized and distributed systems, especially around data. >> Well, you guys are here at DockerCon 2021 Cockroach Labs good success, love the architectural flexibility that you guys offer. And again, bringing that scale, like you mentioned it's awesome value proposition, especially if people want to just program the infrastructure. What's going on with with DockerCon specifically a lot of talk about developer productivity, a lot of talk about collaboration and trust with containers, big story around security. What's your angle here at DockerCon this year? What's the big reveal? What's the discussion? What's the top conversation? >> Yeah, I mean look at where we are a containerized database and we are an incredibly great choice for developers. For us, it's look at there's certain developer communities that are important on this planet, John, and this is one of them, right? This is I don't know a developer doesn't have that little whale up in their status bar, right? And for us, you know me man, I believe in this tech and I believe that this is something that's driven and greatly simplify our lives over the next two to three to 10 to 15 years. And for us, it's about awareness. And I think once people see Cockroach, they're like oh my God, how did I ever even think differently? And so for us, it's kind of moving in that direction. But ultimately our vision where we want to be, is we want to abstract the database to a SQL API in the cloud. We want to make it so simple that I just have this rest interface, there's end points all over the planet. And as a developer, I never have to worry about scale. I never have to worry about DR right? It's always going to be on. And most importantly, I don't have to worry about low latency access to data no matter where I'm at on the planet, right? I can give every user this kind of sub 50 millisecond access to data or sub 20 millisecond access to data. And that is the true delivery of the cloud, right? Like I think that's what the developer wants out of the cloud. They want to code against a service like, and it's got to be consumption-based and you secure and I don't want to have to pay for stuff I'm not using and that all those things. And so, for us, that's what we're building to, and interacting in this environment is critical for us because I think that's where audiences. >> I want to get your thoughts on you guys do have success with a couple of different personas and developers out there, groups, classic developers, software developers which is this show is that DockerCon full of developers KubeCon a lot of operators cool, and some dads, but mostly cloud native operations. Here's a developer shops. So you guys got to hit the developers which really care about building fast and building the scale and last with security. Architects you had success with, which is the classic, cloud architecture, which now distributed computing, we get that. But the third area I would call the kind of the role that both the architects and the developers had to take on which is being the DevOps person or then becomes the SRE in the group, right? So most startups have the DevOps team developers. They do DevOps natively and within every role. So they're the same people provisioning. But as you get larger and an enterprise, the DevOps role, whether it's in a team or group takes on this SRE site reliability engineer. This is a new dynamic that brings engineering and coding together. It's like not so much an ops person. It's much more of like an engineering developer. Why is that role so important? And we're seeing more of it in dev teams, right? Seeing an SRE person or a DevOps person inside teams, not a department. >> Yeah, look, John, we, yeah, I mean, we employ an army of SREs that manage and maintain our CockroachCloud, which is CockroachDB as a service, right? How do you deliver kind of a world-class experience for somebody to adopt a managed service a database such as ours, right? And so for us, yeah I mean, SREs are extremely important. So we have personal kind of an opinion on this but more importantly, I think, look at if you look at Cockroach and the architecture of what we built, I think Kelsey Hightower at one point said, I am going to probably mess this up but there was a tweet that he wrote. It's something like, CockroachDB is the Spanner as Kubernetes is the board. And if you think about that, I mean that's exactly what this is and we built a database that was actually amenable to the SRE, right? This is exactly what they want. They want it to scale up and down. They want it to just survive things. They want to be able to script this thing and basically script the world. They want to actually, that's how they want to manage and maintain. And so for us, I think our initial audience was definitely architects and operators and it's theCUBE con crowd and they're like, wow, this is cool. This is architected just like Kubernetes. In fact, like at etcd, which is a key piece of Kubernetes but we contribute back up to NCD our raft implementation. So there's a lot of the same tech here. What we've realized though John, with database is interesting. The architect is choosing a database sometimes but more often than not, a developer is choosing that database. And it's like they go out, they find a database, they just start building and that's what happens. So, for us, we made a very critical decision early on, this database is wire compatible with Postgres and it speaks to SQL syntax which if you look at some of the other solutions that are trying to do these things, those things are really difficult to do at the end. So like a critical decision to make sure that it's amenable so that now we can build the ORMs and all the tools that people would use and expect that of Postgres from a developer point of view, but let's simplify and automate and give the right kind of like the platform that the SREs need as well. And so for us the last year and a half is really about how do we actually build the right tooling for the developer crowd too. And we've really pushed really far in that world as well. >> Talk about the aspect of the scale of like, say startup for instance, 'cause you made this a great example borg to Kubernetes 'cause borg was Google's internal Kubernetes, like thing. So you guys have Spanner which everyone knows is a great product at Google had. You guys with almost the commercial version of that for the world. Is there, I mean, some people will say and I'll just want to challenge you on this and we'll get your thoughts. I'm not Google, I'll never be Google, I don't need that scale. Or so how do you address that point because some people say, well this might dismiss the notion of using it. How do you respond to that? >> Yeah, John, we get this all the time. Like, I'm not global. My application's not global. I don't need this. I don't need a tank, right? I just need, like, I just need to walk down the road. You know what I mean? And so, the funny thing is, even if you're in a single region and you're building a simple application, does it need to be always on does it need to be available. Can it survive the failure of a server or a rack or an AZ it doesn't have to survive the failure of a region but I tell you what, if you're successful, you're going to want to start actually deploying this thing across multiple regions. So you can survive a backhoe hit in a cable and the entire east coast going out, right? Like, and so with Cockroach, it's real easy to do that. So it's four little SQL commands and I have a database that's going to span all those regions, right? And I think that's important but more importantly, think about scale, when a developer wants to scale, typically it's like, okay, I'm going to spin up Postgres and I'm going to keep increasing my instance size. So I'm going to scale vertically until I run out of room. And then I'm going to have to start sharding this database. And when you start doing that, it adds this kind of application complexity that nobody really wants to deal with. And so forget it, just let the database deal with all that. So we find this thing extremely useful for the single developer in a very small application but the beauty thing is, if you want to go global, great just keep that in notes. Like when that application does take off and it's the next breakthrough thing, this database going to grow with you. So it's good enough to kind of start small but it's the scale fast, it'll go global if you want to, you have that option, I guess, right? >> I mean, why wouldn't you want optionality on this at all? So clearly a good point. Let me ask you a question, take me through a use case where with Cockroach, some scenario develops nicely, you can point to the visibility of the use case for the developer and then kind of how it played out and then compare that and contrast that to a scenario that doesn't go well, like where where we're at plays out well, for an example, and then if they didn't deploy it they got hung up and went sideways. >> Yeah like Cockroach was built for transactional workloads. That that's what we are like, we are optimized for the speed of light and consistent transactions. That's what we do, and we do it very well. At least I think so, right. But I think, like my favorite customer of all of ours is DoorDash and about a year ago DoorDash came to us and said, look at we have a transactional database that can't handle the right volume that we're getting and falls over. And they they'd significant challenges and if you think about DoorDash and DoorDash is business they're looking at an IPO in the summer and going through these, you can't have any issues. So like system's got to be up and running, right? And so for them, it was like we need something that's reliable. We need something that's not going to come down. We need something that's going to scale and handle burst and these sort of things and their business is big, their businesses not just let me deliver food all the time. It's deliver anything, like be that intermediary between a good and somebody's front door. That's what DoorDash wants to be. And for us, yeah, their transactions and that backend transactional system is built on Cockroach. And that's one year ago, they needed to get experienced. And once they did, they started to see that this was like very, very valuable and lots of different workloads they had. So anywhere there's any sort of transactional workload be it metadata, be it any sort of like inventory, or transaction stuff that we see in companies, that's where people are coming to us. And it's these traditional relational workloads that have been wrapped up in these transactional relational databases what built for the cloud. So I think what you're seeing is that's the other shoe to drop. We've seen this happen, you're watching Databricks, you're watching Snowflake kind of do this whole data cloud and then the analytical side John that's been around for a long time and there's that move to the cloud. That same thing that happened for OLAP, is got to happen for OLTP. Where we don't do well is when somebody thinks that we're an analytic database. That's not what we're built for, right? We're optimized for transactions and I think you're going to continue to see these two sides of the world, especially in cloud especially because I think that the way that our global systems are going to work you don't want to do analytics across multiple regions, it doesn't make sense, right? And so that's why you're going to see this, the continued kind of two markets OLAP and OLTP going on and we're just, we're squaring that OLTP side of the world. >> Yeah talking about the transaction processing side of it when you start to change a distributed architecture that goes from core edge, core on premises to edge. Edge being intelligent edge, industrial edge, whatever you're going to have more action happening. And you're seeing, Kubernetes already kind of talking about this and with the containers you got, so you've got kind of two dynamics. How does that change the nature of, and the level of volume of transactions? >> Well, it's interesting, John. I mean, if you look at something like Kubernetes it's still really difficult to do multi-region or multicloud Kubernetes, right? This is one of those things that like you start to move Kubernetes to the edge, you're still kind of managing all these different things. And I think it's not the volumes, it's the operational nightmare of that. For us, that's federate at the data layer. Like I could deploy Cockroach across multiple Kubernetes clusters today and you're going to have one single logical database running across those. In fact you can deploy Cockroach today on top of three public cloud providers, I can have nodes in AWS, I could have nodes in GCP, I could have nodes running on VMs in my data center. Any one of those nodes can service requests and it's going to look like a single logical database. Now that to me, when we talked about multicloud a year and a half ago or whatever that was John, that's an actual multicloud application and delivering data so that you don't have to actually deal with that in your application layer, right? You can do that down in the guts of the database itself. And so I think it's going to be interesting the way that these things gets consumed and the way that we think about where data lives and where our compute lives. I think that's part of what you're thinking about too. >> Yeah, so let me, well, I got you here. One of the things on my mind I think people want to maybe get clarification on is real quick while you're here. Take a minute to explain that you're seeing a CockroachDB and CockroachCloud. There are different products, you mentioned you've brought them both up. What's the difference for the developers watching? What's the difference of the two and when do I need to know the difference between the two? >> So to me, they're really one because CockroachCloud is CockroachDB as a service. It's our offering that makes it a world-class easy to consume experience of working with CockroachDB, where we take on all the hardware we take on the SRE role, we make sure it's up and running, right? You're getting connection, stringing your code against it. And I think, that's side of our world is really all about this kind of highly evolved database and delivering that as a service and you can actually use it's CockroachDB. I think it was just gets really interesting John is the next generation of what we're building. This serverless version of our database, where this is just an API in the cloud. We're going to have one instance of Cockroach with multi-tenant database in there and any developer can actually spin up on that. And to me, that gets to be a really interesting world when the world turns serverless, and we have, we're running our compute in Lambda and we're doing all these great things, right? Or we're using cloud run and Google, right? But what's the corresponding database to actually deal with that? And that to me is a fundamentally different database 'cause what is scale in the serverless world? It's autonomous, right? What scale in the current, like Cockroach world but you kind of keep adding nodes to it, you manage, you deal with that, right? What does resilience mean in a serverless world? It's just, yeah, its there all the time. What's important is latency when you get to kind of serverless like where are these things deployed? And I think to me, the interesting part of like the two sides of our world is what we're doing with serverless and kind of this and how we actually expose the core value of CockroachDB in that way. >> Yeah and I think that's one of the things that is the Nirvana or the holy grail of infrastructure as code is making it, I won't say irrelevant, but invisible if you're really dealing with a database thing, hey I'm just scaling and coding and the database stuff is just working with compute, just whatever, how that's serverless and you mentioned Lambda that's the action because you don't want the file name and deciding what the database is just having it happen is more productivity for the developers that kind of circles back to the whole productivity message for the developers. So I totally get that I think that's a great vision. The question I have for you Jim, is the big story here is developer simplicity. How you guys making it easier to just deploy. >> John is just an extension of the last part of the conversation. I don't want to developer to ever have to worry about a database. That's what Spencer and Peter and Ben have in their vision. It's how do I make the database so simple? It's simple, it's a SQL API in the cloud. Like it's a rest interface, I code against it, I run queries against it, I never have to worry about scaling the thing. I never have to worry about creating active, passive, and primary and secondary. All these like the DevOps side of it, all this operation stuff, it's just kind of done in the background dude. And if we can build it, and it's actually there now where we have it in beta, what's the role of the cost-based optimizer in this new world that we've had in databases? How are you actually ensuring data is located close to users and we're automating that so that, when John's in Australia doing a show, his data is going to follow him there. So he has fast access to that, right? And that's the kind of stuff that, we're talking about the next generation of infrastructure John, not like we're not building for today. Like, look at Cockroach Labs is not building for like 2021. Sure, do we have something that's great. We're building something that's 22 and 23 and 24, right? Like what do we need to be as a extremely productive set of engineers? And that's what we think about all day. How do we make data easy for the developer? >> Well, Jim, great to have you on VP of Product Marketing at Cockroach Labs, we've known each other for a long time. I got to ask you while I had got you here final question is, you and I have chatted about the many waves of in open source and in the computer industry, what's your take on where we are now. And I see you're looking at it from the Cockroach Labs perspective which is large scale distributed computing kind of you're on the new side of history, the right side of history, cloud native. Where are we right now? Compare and contrast for the folks watching who we're trying to understand the importance of where we are in the industry, where are we in and what's your take? >> Yeah John I feel fortunate to be in a company such as this one and the past couple that I've like been around and I feel like we are in the middle of a transformation. And it's just like the early days of this next generation. And I think we're seeing it in a lot of ways in infrastructure, for sure but we're starting to see it creep up into the application layer. And for me, it is so incredibly exciting to see the cloud was, remember when cloud was like this thing that people were like, oh boy maybe I'll do it. Now it's like, it's anything net new is going to be on cloud, right? Like we don't even think twice about it and the coming nature of cloud native and actually these technologies that are coming are going to be really interesting. I think the other piece that's really interesting John is the changing role of open source in this whole game, because I think of open source as code consumption and community, right? I think about those and then there's license of course, I think people were always there. A lot of people wrapped around the licensing. Consumption has changed, John. Back when we were talking to Dupe, consumption was like, oh, it's free, I get this thing I could just download it use it. Well consumption over the past three years, everybody wants everything as a service. And so we're ready to pay. For us, how do we bring free back to the service? And that's what we're doing. That's what I find like I am so incredibly excited to go through this kind of bringing back free beer to open source. I think that's going to be great 'cause if I can give you a database free up to five gig or 10 gig, man and it's available all over the planet has fully featured, that's coming, that's bringing our community and our code which is all open source and this consumption model back. And I'm super excited about that. >> Yeah, free beer who doesn't like free beer of course, developers love free beer and a great t-shirt too that's soft. Make sure you get that, get the soft >> You just don't want free puppy, you know what I mean? It was just like, yeah, that sounds painful. >> Well Jim, great to see you remotely. Can't wait to see you in person at the next event. And we've got the fall window coming up. We'll see some events. I think KubeCon in LA is going to be in-person re-invent a data breast for sure we'll be in person. I know that for a fact we'll be there. So we'll see you in person and congratulations on the work at Cockroach Labs. >> Thanks, John, great to see you again. All right, this keep coverage of DockerCon 2021. I'm John Furrie your host of theCUBE. Thanks for watching.

>> Announcer: From New York, it's theCube. Covering Escape/19. (techno music) >> Yeah, welcome back to theCube's coverage here in New York City for the first ever inaugural multicloud conference called Escape 2019, escape, we're in New York, we're not escaping from New York, we're escaping from the cloud. Jim Walker, Vice President of Product Marketing at Cockroach Labs, the custodian/founders of Cockroach Database. Welcome back, good to see you. >> Congratulations on your new role, new gig. Been there for a while? >> Yeah it's been a while since I've seen you, John, I've jumped out of the data space and into Kubernetes, and so, yeah, I landed at Cockroach Labs about a year ago. And having fun. >> It's interesting, the game is still the same, data is still the same as a value proposition, but software. >> Yeah. >> Data is now code, data is looking, interacting with software, data control planes, data layers, data lakes. All this is an evolution of stuff we were talking about back in the open source days at Hortonworks. The data is in motion, data in flight, data at rest, data is continuing to be critical in automation, security, every single app. >> Yeah, it's at the center of the big battle right now, right, there's this like... I just sense there's a larger battle going on for the platform right now, and the platform is being battled out by these large public cloud providers, and it's who can get compute, who can get actually, you know, people, residents in their cloud. Data has always been the centerpiece of that. Data is gravity, if it was on, before it was on-premise, so the battle was in-house at all these people and now it's like how do we get this stuff to move over. >> Yeah, we were talking before you came on camera, it helps we talk online a lot, and have a lot of connected friends in the cloud native space, but now that Cloud 2.0 has arrived, where it's enterprise hybrid, people are starting to get excited about that, you're seeing the re-platformization or refactoring or whatever word you want to use, a modern enterprise architecture, that has the best of cloud native, has the best of what the enterprise used to do with comput-- like mini-computers, whatnot, now packaged up an operating model. This modernization trend is hitting everything, note, developers, security, this is kind of where you're playing right now. Look what Google's done with Spanner database and where that's all come from in these kinds of large-scale data problems. Modernization's here, what's your take on this? >> Yeah, I know this is modernization, but it's stuff we've been doing for a long time. It's like, you know, I was talking to Steve Mulaney earlier, Steve's brilliant, right, and Steve's talking about 1992 we saw this transition to kind of client server. I've never seen anything like this trans... This transition and this modernization is much bigger than any of the other trends that we've been through. Back when we were talking before it was the Hadoop game, and we were talking modern data architecture, how do we actually transform the way we thought about data from these kind of single stovepipes of data into larger data lakes and this sort of thing. That was the beginning. What we're seeing this time though is a massive transformation up and down the stack of which data is one huge, massive piece of that. And as we know, man, data has gravity and it's at the center of this battle again. >> What's your definition of multicloud? We're at the first ever multicloud conference, what is multicloud? >> You know I get asked this a fair amount, so as I was looking for speakers it was like, "Well, what do you mean, a multicloud conference, what does that even mean?" There's a lot of people, multicloud unbelievers. I think we already live in a multicloud world. I think hybrid cloud is just multicloud. I talked to a lot of people through the CFP process for the conference. I had guys who were running edge computing platforms saying, "Talk to me about this", I'm like, "Well, if you look at it, it's just servers, they're just servers that are everywhere" and actually, how do we actually start to attach all this stuff. It's all multicloud, you know what is the cloud but a bunch of different servers that somebody else owns? You may own them, you may not. The challenge is going to be how do we tie all that together? >> Computer history has proven, if anything, heterogeneous environments, multi-vendor. You can go back and talk about, the comment about the client server, I mean, that was a real threat to the mainframe. Internetworking completely changed the game. At that time PCs were exploding in growth, and multi-vendor was a big buzzword. And that was the reality, you had to compete and service multiple vendors in an environment. >> Yeah, and-- >> Multiple cloud is just multiple vendors. >> John, it's called the multicloud conference, and you know my friend Joseph Jacks, I mean Joseph and I have a lot of conversations about things, you know, and he's brilliant in terms of how he thinks about commercial open source and how these things are, and you know I really played around with changing the name of this to the open and independent cloud conference, because that's really what this is about, it's about how do we have a conversation, in the open, about how we open up the cloud? I just thought, I was a little frustrated with some of the conferences I went to because, I think people are talking about this, but it's not lip service, it's just difficult to talk about it in a broader sense. >> Well, I'm really glad you did this because I've been calling multicloud bullshit on theCube for over a year, Stu and I have debates about this, and you know, putting-- >> I watched. >> Okay, of course, but people who know what I mean know that I believe that multicloud reality of "I have Amazon, I got Azure, I mean, hell, if you upgrade Office 365, you have Azure, so that's another cloud. So yes, people have multiple clouds in their environment, but the foundational work is being done now, you guys are doing it, and that's what I was getting at. There's no multiclouding going on, meaning sense of the seamless workload, what HashiCorp is doing, so this is the foundational, what you guys are getting at, in my mind, at least from my perspective, is a foundational conversation around what is the foundation of multicloud look like. >> And John, there is a technical equation here. I think a lot of people will argue the technical merits of what is multicloud, is it even possible to combine networking and security and all, those are really difficult problems to solve. At Cockroach Labs, to solve the database problem, to solve the data problem, to actually have, you know I could spin up a node at Cockroach on this laptop that's sitting next to you and have that participate in a database that spans multiple clouds, that's awesome. But there's a whole other side of this conversation, John, around what does it mean for my skills in my organization, what does it mean for the financial side of things, the legal, and so I think we're all dealing with a lot of these multicloud concepts, we're just not addressing them yet, and so, it's complex. >> Well, first of all, it's fun too, I mean it's complex, but innovation is complex. But here's the thing, Dave and I were joking around Cloud 2.0 and we picked that term, talking about Cloud 2.0, mainly because I remember during Web 2.0, it was just, everyone was just, "What is Web"..., and to create such a debate, so to goof on Web 2.0 we said Cloud 2.0, but what we mean is that it's changing, right? I'll give you an example, I mean to me Cloud 2.0 or multicloud is having a fully horizontal scalable infrastructure, that on-demand, elastic resource with domain specialty application development that takes advantage of data and machine learning for domain-specific context. And then having an addressable data layer on top of that. That to me is multicloud. >> And being able to service your customers no matter where they are. And unfortunately the public copywriters don't have full coverage across the whole planet so we inherently live in this multicloud world. If you wanted to pull an application today, I'm sorry but the world is your audience, there's no segmenting your app to just New York, right? And so how you actually service customers when they're coming at you from all over the planet. It's another challenge that we have. Fortunately I want to add to your Cloud Two conversation, I'm sorry the Cloud 2.0 conversation, that it is a world of hybrid and multi and multi region and single region and it's the evolution between these different kind of flavors of this situation, I feel is the emerging trend that's happening and we're-- >> Well categories are changing, network management becomes observability, configuration management becomes automation, the old database becomes a different kind of database for you, data protection is cyber protection. There's redefining moments here where white spaces are becoming larger categories. I mean, look at observability, probably going public, getting bought. >> John, look at what Google did over the past, like, 10, 12 years and look at the startups that are now out there that are kind of doing this really innovative stuff. We have LightStep here, you know Cockroach is another great example, what the Upbound team is doing, so people have been through this. From a data point of view we couldn't agree more. I can spin up an instance of RDS, Postgres and it's going to be a single instance, it's going to live in one region and that's going to service one bit of a cloud in one corner of the world. The cloud, and this massive distribution of stuff, it changed, you have to inherently start over when you're building these technologies, and that's why the CNCF has come about, right, is there's a fundamentally different approach-- >> CNCF, I love those guys and we're going to go to do CubeCon, but one of the things that I was talking with hashCode co-founder earlier today, he was talking about workflows. I was talking about workloads, and so I think the conversation is still technical and geeky but if you just abstract out all of the nerd talk and geek talk and say, "What's the workflow and what's the workload?", you go, okay, no other buzzwords should be talked. You've got to go onstage, so you've got to go. Jim Walker, Vice President of Product Marketing, Cockroach Labs, good friend of theCube, and our producer of this show, Mike Harold and the team, Escape/19, first inaugural multicloud conference. Be back with more after this short break. (techno music)

>> Announcer: From New York, it's theCube. Covering Escape/19. (techno music) >> Yeah, welcome back to theCube's coverage here in New York City for the first ever inaugural multicloud conference called Escape 2019, escape, we're in New York, we're not escaping from New York, we're escaping from the cloud. Jim Walker, Vice President of Product Marketing at Cockroach Labs, the custodian/founders of Cockroach Database. Welcome back, good to see you. >> Congratulations on your new role, new gig. Been there for a while? >> Yeah it's been a while since I've seen you, John, I've jumped out of the data space and into Kubernetes, and so, yeah, I landed at Cockroach Labs about a year ago. And having fun. >> It's interesting, the game is still the same, data is still the same as a value proposition, but software. >> Yeah. >> Data is now code, data is looking, interacting with software, data control planes, data layers, data lakes. All this is an evolution of stuff we were talking about back in the open source days at Hortonworks. The data is in motion, data in flight, data at rest, data is continuing to be critical in automation, security, every single app. >> Yeah, it's at the center of the big battle right now, right, there's this like... I just sense there's a larger battle going on for the platform right now, and the platform is being battled out by these large public cloud providers, and it's who can get compute, who can get actually, you know, people, residents in their cloud. Data has always been the centerpiece of that. Data is gravity, if it was on, before it was on-premise, so the battle was in-house at all these people and now it's like how do we get this stuff to move over. >> Yeah, we were talking before you came on camera, it helps we talk online a lot, and have a lot of connected friends in the cloud native space, but now that Cloud 2.0 has arrived, where it's enterprise hybrid, people are starting to get excited about that, you're seeing the re-platformization or refactoring or whatever word you want to use, a modern enterprise architecture, that has the best of cloud native, has the best of what the enterprise used to do with comput-- like mini-computers, whatnot, now packaged up an operating model. This modernization trend is hitting everything, note, developers, security, this is kind of where you're playing right now. Look what Google's done with Spanner database and where that's all come from in these kinds of large-scale data problems. Modernization's here, what's your take on this? >> Yeah, I know this is modernization, but it's stuff we've been doing for a long time. It's like, you know, I was talking to Steve Mulaney earlier, Steve's brilliant, right, and Steve's talking about 1992 we saw this transition to kind of client server. I've never seen anything like this trans... This transition and this modernization is much bigger than any of the other trends that we've been through. Back when we were talking before it was the Hadoop game, and we were talking modern data architecture, how do we actually transform the way we thought about data from these kind of single stovepipes of data into larger data lakes and this sort of thing. That was the beginning. What we're seeing this time though is a massive transformation up and down the stack of which data is one huge, massive piece of that. And as we know, man, data has gravity and it's at the center of this battle again. >> What's your definition of multicloud? We're at the first ever multicloud conference, what is multicloud? >> You know I get asked this a fair amount, so as I was looking for speakers it was like, "Well, what do you mean, a multicloud conference, what does that even mean?" There's a lot of people, multicloud unbelievers. I think we already live in a multicloud world. I think hybrid cloud is just multicloud. I talked to a lot of people through the CFP process for the conference. I had guys who were running edge computing platforms saying, "Talk to me about this", I'm like, "Well, if you look at it, it's just servers, they're just servers that are everywhere" and actually, how do we actually start to attach all this stuff. It's all multicloud, you know what is the cloud but a bunch of different servers that somebody else owns? You may own them, you may not. The challenge is going to be how do we tie all that together? >> Computer history has proven, if anything, heterogeneous environments, multi-vendor. You can go back and talk about, the comment about the client server, I mean, that was a real threat to the mainframe. Internetworking completely changed the game. At that time PCs were exploding in growth, and multi-vendor was a big buzzword. And that was the reality, you had to compete and service multiple vendors in an environment. >> Yeah, and-- >> Multiple cloud is just multiple vendors. >> John, it's called the multicloud conference, and you know my friend Joseph Jacks, I mean Joseph and I have a lot of conversations about things, you know, and he's brilliant in terms of how he thinks about commercial open source and how these things are, and you know I really played around with changing the name of this to the open and independent cloud conference, because that's really what this is about, it's about how do we have a conversation, in the open, about how we open up the cloud? I just thought, I was a little frustrated with some of the conferences I went to because, I think people are talking about this, but it's not lip service, it's just difficult to talk about it in a broader sense. >> Well, I'm really glad you did this because I've been calling multicloud bullshit on theCube for over a year, Stu and I have debates about this, and you know, putting-- >> I watched. >> Okay, of course, but people who know what I mean know that I believe that multicloud reality of "I have Amazon, I got Azure, I mean, hell, if you upgrade Office 365, you have Azure, so that's another cloud. So yes, people have multiple clouds in their environment, but the foundational work is being done now, you guys are doing it, and that's what I was getting at. There's no multiclouding going on, meaning sense of the seamless workload, what HashiCorp is doing, so this is the foundational, what you guys are getting at, in my mind, at least from my perspective, is a foundational conversation around what is the foundation of multicloud look like. >> And John, there is a technical equation here. I think a lot of people will argue the technical merits of what is multicloud, is it even possible to combine networking and security and all, those are really difficult problems to solve. At Cockroach Labs, to solve the database problem, to solve the data problem, to actually have, you know I could spin up a node at Cockroach on this laptop that's sitting next to you and have that participate in a database that spans multiple clouds, that's awesome. But there's a whole other side of this conversation, John, around what does it mean for my skills in my organization, what does it mean for the financial side of things, the legal, and so I think we're all dealing with a lot of these multicloud concepts, we're just not addressing them yet, and so, it's complex. >> Well, first of all, it's fun too, I mean it's complex, but innovation is complex. But here's the thing, Dave and I were joking around Cloud 2.0 and we picked that term, talking about Cloud 2.0, mainly because I remember during Web 2.0, it was just, everyone was just, "What is Web"..., and to create such a debate, so to goof on Web 2.0 we said Cloud 2.0, but what we mean is that it's changing, right? I'll give you an example, I mean to me Cloud 2.0 or multicloud is having a fully horizontal scalable infrastructure, that on-demand, elastic resource with domain specialty application development that takes advantage of data and machine learning for domain-specific context. And then having an addressable data layer on top of that. That to me is multicloud. >> And being able to service your customers no matter where they are. And unfortunately the public copywriters don't have full coverage across the whole planet so we inherently live in this multicloud world. If you wanted to pull an application today, I'm sorry but the world is your audience, there's no segmenting your app to just New York, right? And so how you actually service customers when they're coming at you from all over the planet. It's another challenge that we have. Fortunately I want to add to your Cloud Two conversation, I'm sorry the Cloud 2.0 conversation, that it is a world of hybrid and multi and multi region and single region and it's the evolution between these different kind of flavors of this situation, I feel is the emerging trend that's happening and we're-- >> Well categories are changing, network management becomes observability, configuration management becomes automation, the old database becomes a different kind of database for you, data protection is cyber protection. There's redefining moments here where white spaces are becoming larger categories. I mean, look at observability, probably going public, getting bought. >> John, look at what Google did over the past, like, 10, 12 years and look at the startups that are now out there that are kind of doing this really innovative stuff. We have LightStep here, you know Cockroach is another great example, what the Upbound team is doing, so people have been through this. From a data point of view we couldn't agree more. I can spin up an instance of RDS, Postgres and it's going to be a single instance, it's going to live in one region and that's going to service one bit of a cloud in one corner of the world. The cloud, and this massive distribution of stuff, it changed, you have to inherently start over when you're building these technologies, and that's why the CNCF has come about, right, is there's a fundamentally different approach-- >> CNCF, I love those guys and we're going to go to do CubeCon, but one of the things that I was talking with hashCode co-founder earlier today, he was talking about workflows. I was talking about workloads, and so I think the conversation is still technical and geeky but if you just abstract out all of the nerd talk and geek talk and say, "What's the workflow and what's the workload?", you go, okay, no other buzzwords should be talked. You've got to go onstage, so you've got to go. Jim Walker, Vice President of Product Marketing, Cockroach Labs, good friend of theCube, and our producer of this show, Mike Harold and the team, Escape/19, first inaugural multicloud conference. Be back with more after this short break. (techno music)

New Orleans Louisiana it that you covering dot next conference 2018 brought to you by Nutanix welcome back to the cubes coverage here of Nutanix next 2018 here in New Orleans Louisiana the brass bands are going talking to lots of customers been a great event so far and for Keith Townsend and I'm Stu minimun we always love to be able to talk to customers each one of them has a different story different analysis different challenges they're facing happened to welcome Alex Walker who's the senior vice president of IT at IBC Bank out of Texas thanks so much for joining us thank you alright so you've actually been going to all the shows just like I have at this Keys first one who's been getting getting the inaugural visit here but first of all tell us about yourself a little bit of background what you run at the bank and just give us quick sketch of the bank oh let's start with the bank you know we're in our 51st year we are based in Laredo Texas and it's a community bank mostly and commercial right you know where we are 19th according to Forbes magazine best banks in the country so we went up from 46 to 19 this year Congrats and so great accomplishments for the bank itself it's a great operation we're in 88 cities in the in Texas and Oklahoma and about 13 billion in assets great and what's under your purview as the SPID okay so you an all IT for the bank I'm not this not the development side of it you know without the operations infrastructure yes okay 51 year old company finance going through a lot of changes before we get in to the tech just give us one or two some of those the stresses and strains that you're feeling is business well regulation is one right over the last several years the increasing regulation has caused a tremendous growth in our auditing Keith Kountz rates at Department and a lot of cost to the bank I started about three and a half years ago and the bank was looking at how do we prepare for a change right potentially hoping for some change in them in the regulatory climate and so forth but we needed to prepare for that and prepare for growth so we we need to take a look at our infrastructure of everything across the board yeah maybe could organizationally where does that pension for change come from what kind of air cover do you get from from News exercise what's of the staff underneath you know how do they take change well initially there was a lot of reluctance right people were in the status quo they're comfortable with what they had not necessarily happy with it but taking on change is it's difficult right so we looked at operational costs some of the basic things we had two data centers at the time literally a hundred and fifty yards apart from each other so we said we can do we can do more right the bank's motto is we do more and so we said how do we do more for the bank for their customers improve the quality of the services the uptime and so and and reduce its cost so it's your bank so change in a bank a lot of times means going from one store to reef vendor to another storage or a vendor and that's a big deal big set of conversations you know your your your you know it we are sitting at the 19th best bank and then the fourteenth you don't get there by turning over the table part called the table you your get you get there by being steady what made you guys actually consider something as revolutionary as HCI when it came to change well when we looked at the infrastructure that we had and you know it goes back to simon Sinek start with quiet right why are we doing this I asked I asked the my department when I first started who are our competitors and they gave us the names of all the local banks and so forth and the usual suspects the large banks and I said no they're not that's the bank's customers our competitors are AWS Rackspace Microsoft is your Google Cloud it's the these are the hosting companies we host applications for our customers we're shared services for our bank once we understand who we are then we have to take a different approach because now if we're competing with them it's no wonder that the bank is starting to branch out and do their own thing right some unit I'm getting contracts with the cloud providers or with other service providers because we're too far behind we're not cost-effective we're not competitive so it doesn't mean that we want to build massive data centers everywhere but we need to have the same level of services that they provide so from a validation perspective it you start to look at the cost of hyper-converged in general I'm sorry how long you guys have been a new tennis customer three years okay so from a cost perspective as you start to look at hyper-converged how did you even begin to compare it to your existing environment well I looked I looked at the the studies that are out there particular there was an IDC study done member on 2015 that said that customers of like size all different types of customers we're getting these these benefits I said wow if I could get those that'd be really cool right so I went to the board I went to my boss the CIO and I said I think we could get this this would be a really good but then again people said we never heard of mechanics what is this our applications aren't certified with Nutanix you know so let's talk about procurements and I said well let's just do a PLC and that's bringing this in and and we'll run VMware on it which is what we were certified at the time our applications and I said let's let's look at this infrastructure this we brought in the PLC but what we did is we took Nutanix and had them talk directly to my accounting the bank's accounting department right we all know we all work for accountants eventually and so we said if we can get them to agree that if we can get these then they're gonna be behind us from the are white and TCO models right so we went through and said what are we paying for this what are we paying for that what's the hyung going rates for this let's get some samples of if we ordered this and replace it we had eleven storage frames from seven different vendors or we couldn't move data around from one storage frame to another because we had over time acquired a lot of different frames and like most places never retired them right and so all that layer of complexity what we did is we said this on this PLC let's test this out okay cut to the chase we we got the we got the numbers we were then three or two 5% of everything that came out in that study and so we bought that that that equipment immediately placed our first order which was 12 notes still want to keep it constrained so one of food in the water but I said this is a technology I'm betting on five years we'll write it off in five years we can get rid of it and move on to the next thing what happened was we were getting so such good wins we actually completed in our five-year model we completed that in roughly around two years because the acceleration based upon the benefits that we got some of the requirements that we had for change within the organization replace all equipment and so forth we were able to to accelerate that not only that we just finished upgrading our D our site which was not part of that five-year plan and just completed that and so within three years we've now are our 97% on Nutanix and we just took delivery of 24 of the Robo nodes which we're going to put out in our branch operations that'll leave us with five servers that are not Nutanix other than our for AIX system yeah Alex can you tell us what what were the key metrics that you were looking at to measure success and you did some TCO studies you actually presented here at the conference what do you recommend to your peers as to how they should be able to evaluate rolling out something like this well for one and a big one was licensing right it's far more efficient what we got for example we got we were able to take our Fibre Channel switches running about quarter of a million plus each and and get rid of those would we when we look at it the bandwidth that that's taken on the servers it's writing data to storage going through this storage controller going into this the sand and coming back that delay was substantial so much so that when we moved all of our databases into Nutanix and eliminated that infrastructure we're running 66% faster than we did on current technology on a conventional architecture did what was the business response on this did it change anything in the business what did the users say well when they'd users Jobs ran far faster than they did before when we went back and said I don't need as many Microsoft sequel licenses as they did before for consolidation fewer cores the tremendous benefits our sequel developed our sequel management team for example it takes far less time to stand up servers do migrations things like that so what's the Delta between the prediction debrief their predicted ROI and the realized our ROI you guys realize your savings much quicker wolves worldwide little surprises well the surprises were we were conservative we didn't include any soft costs those are difficult to we missed it me Steve Kaplan are all are all I got a TCO guy for Nutanix go back and forth on the soft cost don't show weak soft cost show me where I can give the money back to my accountants who we all have to report to correct right yeah so what we found is the fact that we were conservative we were getting much better benefits so again when we look at the servers we bought too many cores right so now I this good problem now I can migrate more systems I did anticipate based upon that spin so the time the technology to the financial benefits the reduction and latency allows you to stop spending money on more cores that you didn't need less latency equals better performance better performance tools more dense newness Lourdes units means less money spent so we we actually shut down one of the data centers and migrated into a single data center and it's we're running somewhere around up third a little bit more than a third of that data center so the electrical expend is down in aggregate roughly around 40% so that's real money okay you mentioned that you're also using Nutanix for disaster recovery tell us what led to that that's a newer solution from Nutanix how that experience go we're using the note annex replication for that and when we our legacy was that some of them were taped and some of it was you know migrating data you know a typical older dr type of situation we're in our testing now and that's a little bit complex because we have to protect that dr site from production but we're mirroring the the systems exactly as they are in production so when you spin it up its life right so we have to build a barrier between those systems so if we take that even then taking that into account we can get it up in hours rather than and when we say hours like a couple of hours rather than the 22 12 to 24 hours that we were before and it's 10 systems not 4 systems so roughly about a hundred servers or so minimally all right Alex look forward a little bit tell us what's on your roadmap what kind of things you're doing and if there's intersections with titanic's there we're looking at VDI for example something that we now that we've reengineering our network as well that we're looking at doing that for branch operations and security right but looking forward into AI and and blockchain and which is going to be very disruptive for financial institutions okay you mentioned blockchain so definitely need to get get your take as to what can you share either personally or from the Bakke standpoint cryptocurrency of course will I and I do pay taxes on it but realistically I'm mining with you know for video carts it's it's not it's really understand from as a chief technologist I'm I really need to understand these things you don't make appendix fluster off on the side I did ask her I could have the old data center and the when we're doing I'm doing that really effectively to better understand that but I think what we're looking at it blockchain is tremendous opportunities for many improvements in security and loss prevention and other types of things within the financial side I'm seeing a lot of big financial institutions that are getting filing for patents on block chains and they're they're bringing it up in their ten cases potentially very disruptive and very expensive and some of them are saying specifically cryptocurrency and blockchain and some of them are saying new you know new competition in the market right so we take that to kind of mean that they're they're thinking about the same things we are so keep a eye on to the future especially when it comes to something like blockchain this relatively inefficient at processing transactions how does that impact your data center strategy you guys just went down from you know huge space reduced electrical power by 40% any considerations around kind of the blood blockchain at a commercial level of use within the bank and how it might impact your strategy we're a conservative bank so would we we're having discussions about what what does that mean right what it were do we think that's might come in and it's very early for us right we've been busy you know the datacenter moves and other types of things too so we're starting to look at that and have some a few conversations about what do we think it it is we're talking to some of our our business partners and say how might we cooperate with you guys to do excuse me to use some of this blockchain technology it's a it's a different way of doing it you know when in the past we might use relational databases like sequel server or something to do something some of this work where distributed ledger might be a far easier better way to do that so it's another tool I like to say that you know video didn't kill the radiostar right yeah there's more type of radio out there than there ever was so this is another tool that we have to look and say well how does this how do we utilize this what with the right technology for the right job and we're being very cautious about that all right well Alex Walker really appreciate you sharing all the updates on IBC Bank pleasure to catch up with you and look forward to seeing you more than ten echoes in the future for Keith Townsend Thomas do minimun more coverage here at Nutanix duck necks New Orleans thanks for watching the queue [Music]

live from San Francisco it's the cube covering Red Hat summit 2018 brought to you by Red Hat okay welcome back everyone would live here in San Francisco California the Moscone West for the cubes exclusive coverage of Red Hat summit 2018 I'm John for the co-host of the cube was my closest week analyst John Troy a co-founder of tech reckoning advisory and Community Development firm our next two guests is erica kochi co-founder of unicef innovation the United Nations Children's Fund and Mike Walker director of open innovation labs at Red Hat welcome to the cube thanks for coming joining us thanks love this story so Erica take a minute to talk about what you're working on at UNICEF you guys doing a lot of great stuff you got the relationship with Red Hat innovation labs but you doing some pretty amazing things take them into explain what you're doing at UNICEF some of the projects and what we're going to talk about here with the school and the magic fox all the greatness sure so UNICEF innovation essentially what we do is take technology and apply it to the problems facing children around the world and we do that in a variety of ways I think the things that we're probably most most known for is our work in mobile technology to connect frontline health workers and young people to to governments and have let them have a say in what's happening in in you know the halls of government and we have a program called you report which has five million young people from all over the world who are talking directly to their government representatives they need that now more than ever we certainly do yeah so open source obviously with red hat big shared vision talk about the shared mission like what's going on but there where's the connection I was the open source was great for society we've seen the benefits all around the world how is this translating for you guys yeah so I've been at Red Hat for a while and obviously we're the world's largest open source enterprise open source software company and I as a consultant been able to see Red Hat open source software used for many different purposes in every vertical you can think of but this one was really unique because we found a natural partnership I think between some of UNICEF innovations vision to use open source and open principles for maximum impact for good and so when I learned about innovation at UNICEF really by chance I just ran into a colleague at a meeting in New York and and she gave me a few words about it I said this is incredible because we can leverage all of what we learned at Red Hat our knowledge of open source to impact people and culture and not just for technical reasons and and partnered with UNICEF to make maximum social impact for children that need it most and you got red house key a technology company a lot of smart people there but with open source there's been a DNA in your bloodstream of the company around democratization and now we're out in the open with everyone online and everything's good this is a democratization piece talk about some of that the things that you guys are doing with red hat what specifically are you celebrating together here so we had a great collaboration with with Red Hat there at their labs program which really took a look at our challenge of using big data to read or understand what's happening on the ground especially in schools in countries that are either coming out of emergencies or have limited access to a lot of the parts of the country and so we layered satellite imagery information on poverty other sets of data you can really get a clear picture about where we should be allocating our resources and how we should be planning for emergencies and this collaboration just just finished up a couple days ago right and it's really been great what's some of the impact give an example of some of the use cases so actually saving time money will be things around yeah what what are some of the impact things that you see with this project what are some of the things a lot of countries right now are thinking about how they can connect all of their schools and make sure all of it their schools are online and give children this access to information that's really essential to to thrive in the world of today and tomorrow and if you don't know where your schools are and you don't know if they're connected or not and you can't see you know what else is happening it's in the socio-economic way in those areas it's really hard to figure out what to do and where to start so we're really just at the beginning of that process to try to connect every school in the world and we're at the moment we're trying to lay the groundwork to understand where we're at and where we need a level of insight you're providing once you connect the schools you can get people can know what to do and how to align with what's happening it's interesting I was just in Puerto Rico a couple weeks ago and the young kids there have self formed their own blockchain network between the schools and they're teaching themselves how to program because they recognize that to get out of their world and the mess that they're challenging through now post-hurricane they want to participate in the new economy so as someone not knowing that if I know I could help you're kind of providing a window into that kind of dynamic where is that kind of the use case is that how it's working so it's but participation and contribution is absolutely participation is key you know for young people and they need to it like really learn how to acquire the skills that they're gonna need to you know become successful productive adults in the future and school is you know one of the entry points to do that so that's really important and everyone loves that - yeah I'm kind of curious about the structure of the project today in the keynote you know Jim why does she start us off by saying well you know we can't plan everything we've got to be a little bit more agile here's a framework for how to how to really approach problems when we really don't know what the outcome or even what we're gonna hit so can you talk a little bit maybe about the structure of the of the process and did you know did you start with a blank piece of paper or do you know how did how did you figure out the pathway to the ultimate outcome here yeah I can take it first um that's a great question because at labs we experiment with ways to get fast feedback and really in a very short amount of time usually one to three months and a very limited amount of funds how can we make maximum impact using open technologies and open practices so the project was already in progress like most IT projects are right Gardi been some research we have data scientists to work with and one of the first things we did was really talk about really our concerns and fears about how we might work together using an exercise called how might we we kind of came together and said how might we solve this problem or that problem and just got it out on the table one of the aspects that I think work really is dedicating a small team in a residency style engagement where we worked off premise so Red Hatters left their office UNICEF folks left their office we came together in akola works based in New York City that was fairly convenient and you know we all focused on a tough problem and we decided really early on that in order to make sure that this problem actually would be usable and in the hands of end users in the field across the world we needed to get face to face so we made a trip to Latin America to work with a UNICEF field office to get fast feet up feedback on prototypes and that helped us adjust what we ended up shipping as the product at the end of the two months cycle Erika how was the outcome for you and your game it's great I think you know one of the things that really aligns RedHat and UNICEF is not just a commitment to open source and the values around that but also this agile methodology I think that you know to really move something a product forward or sort of a program forward you need to step away from the daily part of life you know and move away from the the email and the connection to the laptop and the phone and I think we were able to do that I also think that you need to ground truth things and so that you know that trip to the field and to really understand the context and the problems that that people are facing is is completely critical to success and that's like agile programming you kind of gotta get get out in the front lines not ask about the data I'm really intrigued so you got multiple data sources coming in love the satellite thing you're changing lives but you're saving lives too is your talk about you may name real-time efforts here what's the data science thing what's the tech behind I mean is it ingesting data as a third party data Z how does it work I mean can you share some some of the mechanics on the date of data science piece er yeah I think there's probably a lot we can talk about I could talk about data all day love data but some of the things that I think were fundamentally really exciting about this project and about what UNICEF innovation has done so let's take for example Facebook they have a whole lot of data but that's one company and it's sort of one lens to the world right it's it's quite broad and we get a lot of information but it's one company what UNICEF innovation has done is found ways to partner with private and public companies and private and public data sources in a way that maintains the security and integrity of that data so that it's not exposing proprietary information but they've been able to create those that community essentially that's willing to share information to solve a really tough challenge for social good and so we have actually a really wide variety of data at our disposal and our job was to create a sandbox that allow data scientists to really both proactively plan for things that might happen and reactively plan when events occur when we don't even know what that event might be so you know I like to think back to Jim Whitehurst's speech last year at summit where I said planning is dead we've got to try learn and modify I think that's exactly what we aim to build a platform that you know hasn't been planned for any one event or action but provides the flexibility for data scientists to try experiment pull different data together learn from it sharing Maps we integrated geospatial data and maps to be able to pass this along quickly and then modify based on the results so we can more quickly achieve something with the greatest impact that's awesome yeah so for example if you take you know you take like for example epidemics right so many factors are so many different types of data are needed to really understand what's happening in an epidemic for example take Zika you have temperature right mosquitos only breed at a certain at a certain temperature you have poverty or which really indicates standing water where mosquitoes can breed you have socioeconomic factors so it does the house more likely does it have mosquito screens or not and then you have the social right what are people talking about what are they concerned about and I think like a really interesting picture emerges when you can start to layer all of these kinds of data and that really helps us see where we should be focusing it's great discovery information using the data to drive kind of we're to look at and we're to focus efforts exactly and also a global footprint right and in previous decades maybe this would have run on a piece with some sort of a proprietary GIS thing or or yeah I'm not even sure right you chip around discs maybe but I mean not not to be too product oriented right built on OpenShift we've seen a whole lot this week right these global footprint you could take it live on any cloud I assume that's a piece of it right at global accessibility now for they out for the the resulting application absolutely and we want to take you know what we've done in one scenario and apply it to many others in many other locations and so being an open source is key for this because we wouldn't be able to do this in other locations are replicated just as easily handed to local folks have them an adapted and/or take it further or have other people work on it whether it's academics other companies us nice I love the structure like how its agile I got a Eric I ought to ask you about this because we're seeing a big trend with open source obviously that's well on its way to becoming it is the standard of doing software but mission driven technology activities aren't just nonprofits anymore you starting to see collaboration the JOBS Act that Obama put in place really set the table for new kind of funding so you've seen a lot more younger people coming in and saying hey you know what I can build it on the cloud and grants aware but the code gets live on right so you seeing a new flywheel around mission driven nonprofits and for-profits a new kind of entrepreneurship culture can you share insight into how this is developer you see a lot of it you have a lot of thoughts on this your them please so I think that you know as technology companies become so much more influential in our lives you know they're not just showing you the news anymore they were they're moving into every aspect of our lives whether it's in our into our homes or even inside our bodies that they're they're occupying as so much more influential role in an individual's life with that comes a tremendous amount of responsibility and I think that while it's not enough to say you should do good because it's the right thing to do I think that employees also really demand it I think that you know and that shift will occur because employees realize that they want to they want to be doing good in the world and if they're gonna be influencing so many people's lives that's really really it's a new citizenship model for the younger generations early Millennials want to work in a company that's not just the profit hungar motive but also there's some dynamics going on with the infrastructure world you look at Facebook as a classic example you know the word weaponizing content has been a bad thing but we've been talking about in the queue there's actually a reverse of that polar opposite which is you can weaponize content for good meaning that all the same principles that do bad things can be used for good things so this is where we started to see a lot more people saying hey let's do more of the fad and punish so the new kind of rules are developing in the society so I find it fascinating and I'm just curious is this known within the societal entrepreneurship culture or what's the what's your view on how to do more how to do better I'm doing a lot of work in what AI is gonna be meaning what's what it's gonna mean for children in the world and you know there are so many opportunities we've been talking about some of them but there are also a lot of risks right what does it mean when your child's best friend is a robot what does that change about our us us you know as human beings and so I think it's you know you have to look at both sides and you have to be very conscious about designing the technology that you want to see in the world that's gonna make the world a good place to live in and I think that there definitely is an awakening and that's going and there's a lot this is a first generation set of problems that social entrepreneurship brings a just society I mean who sets the policy which side of the road the cars drive on or you know there's these new issues that are evolving that I've never been seen before you know cyber bullying - all kinds of things happening so congratulations on all those success so what's the forecast for Red Hat innovation has more of this gonna continue double down on it what are the things do you guys have going on yeah so Labs is growing quite largely we are now live in North America amia and a pack with plans to expand extend to Latin in the future and we're growing quite quickly in terms of our ability to execute I guess you know the labs team is relatively small a small number of specialists but we are all of RedHat so the way we operate is based on what we're trying to achieve together we will look at all of red hat and sometimes even outside of red hat to figure out who we can bring to the table to help solve that problem and so it allows me to work with our engineering with our business units even with our marketing so we brought marketing in to the first meeting not simply because we're creating a marketing event but we realized we need to advertise internally and externally what we build in order to gain adoption it's part of building a community and what I have found is because Labs has an injective that goes beyond you know simply a technological objective we're aiming to change ways of working and to change culture it's really easy to build a lot of interest and adoption among all Red Hatters to bring them together to solve a tough problem a really an interesting facet a lot about labs I know you do these pop-up labs and I think this was what you know you don't make necessarily make people come to you you son can come to them but I think like you said it's important to get outside your your office and your day-to-day for these focused projects you talked a little bit about your approach to yeah so we've learned a lot you know Labs is almost exactly two years old I think we launched in April of 2016 at OpenStack summit and one thing we learned is you know the world is a big place and we can't necessarily have a physical lab location everywhere so we do have first-class facilities in Boston Singapore in London but I would say the large majority of the work efforts we've done to date have been in what we call pop-up labs and what that allows us to do is create that immersion and focus on a tough challenge by getting people out of the office but also provide the ability to go home at the end of the day and have dinner at your home which a lot of people enjoy and from the red head perspective we've got a lot of folks used to travel so we can make that happen meet in the middle and and it's been a good hybrid approach that we end up doing more and more great stuff here actually is my final question for then to take from Jim Whitehouse keynote today how is blockchain changing this open for good economics that's absolutely right and I mean Erika you might want to weigh in as well but I think I love blockchain first of all I love math and I love the science behind it but I love the fact that it was developed in the open it was debated in the open it's radically transparent you can see all of the transactions of anyone in the chain and it's being used in ways that no one ever dreamed of I mean it was meant for a universal currency but you know think about this we might be able to use it as a token system so that we can actually ensure that humanitarian efforts that are done are actually recognized by people that they may not otherwise have funds right someone with very little money can still use so perhaps takers making sure the money gets put to use absolutely and endpoints we have accountability you know we're using it to exchange electronic health records securely and privately with the people that need them and only the people that need them so I don't know where blockchain will be in five years but I am optimistic that I think the mathematics and the fundamental is a blockchain or sound and I think more than anything it's the community that will drive new applications of blockchain and really define and answer that question for you well I know we'll be in New York next week with blockchain for consensus of ennum there's a lot of ents going on we've seen wealthy entrepreneurs donating Bitcoin and aetherium there's a really great project so and a lot of young people love the blockchain and crypto so who knows got to be on that labs we're definitely look you know looking into it and we have a couple experiments around the world that range from trying to do some smart contracts you know in in country environments to taking donations in in blockchain armies Arion cryptocurrencies I think that there are a lot of exciting applications for it in this due to do good space I also think that there's a tremendous amount of hype and you know you really have to ask yourself the key question of like does this need a central trusted Authority or is there one that exists that already is great um and do we need to record every transaction if you can answer those two questions then the other baby going somewhere well great point the other thing I would answer that agree hundred percent and that is is that blockchain and crypto our token economic certainty not the ico scams but is an efficiency heat-seeking missile it it targets efficiencies where there's inefficiencies announced where I see a lot of the action going on and you know efforts and for good are highly inefficient yeah so hey you knows well we'd love blockchain as you can tell we talk about all day long smart contracts token economics thanks for coming on and congratulations on your project thank you you're good to stuff their cube coverage here day two of three days live coverage here in San Francisco the Red Hat summit 2018 moved back after this short break stay with us

live from the sands convention center las vegas nevada extracting a signal from the noise it's the cube covering HP discover 2015 brought to you by HP and now your host dave vellante welcome back to HP discover everybody this is dave vellante check out HP discovered on social for all the social streams the video the content the special access patrick osborne is here from HP cube alum and he's joined by Bill Walker of 20th Century Fox gents welcome to the cube good thank you yeah thanks for having us discovering another discover a little different this year Patrick we got Meg talking about business outcomes and absolutely uber and their yeah all the kinds of some shit models are very different I mean obviously you come out here every year for the past number of years and you know it's all about the technology i'm always wowed by the broad you know portfolio that we have but really at the end of the day I think some of the messaging to the customers is you know we're here to help you solve your problems and parts of that is technology part of its services so this hot sort of new high-level messaging around transformation and helping people achieve these business outcomes I think it's a good fresh start yes so bill your business going through some interesting transformations yes today to talk about the high level the drivers in your business the yet new competitors you got you got huge opportunities to go into this digital transformation you've sort of early on in that so maybe talk about some of the drivers in your business sure absolutely I think for us you know you really hit the nail on the head in the sense that it's really been about the physical to digital transformation that the industry is you know kind of going through and also Fox is and you know on the infrastructure side and the IT side we're trying to support that you know as best we can and you know the name of the game lately has been speed to market right so we partnered very tightly with HP on not only the hardware but the software side in you know building out kind of a brand new digital supply chain environment in Las Vegas actually right here and one of our major data centers where we deliver all of our digital content to all of our providers so EST VOD providers like amazon and itunes as well as you know major broadcasters so you've got a facility out here that is essentially your your cloud yes yes we do that that's our primary place where we deliver everything out of its it's great we're using all HP hardware and software there so we're customers across the board in the sense that we have blades we've got three par we're using store once as well as the HP software stack like cloud system on top of that that part is part of a super nap yes yes so yeah we we're facility we're in super net we love it it's a great facility we moved there like a little over two years ago and it's it's been awesome experience that made it into the any of the movies no it must hey I know well they it's impressive on the outside and the inside right yeah was it the old member the robocop oh yeah they have that storagetek tape library way magnet yeah they were great at four days these impressive data centers look amazing so so talk a little bit more about the you called it the digital supply chain that's a powerful concept what's behind that yeah so you know we we've obviously been in the physical supply chain business for a while on the home entertainment side so thank DVDs you know blu-rays that kind of thing but as we transition from people buying physical media to digital media a lot of the workflows and you know the supply chain aspect of it is still there but now we're talking digital and not physical so one of the things we've done at Fox is we've you know we've created what we call our digital supply chain so you've got you know they not only you know things like content delivery in there but you've got you know watermarking you know all the all the hallmarks of what you would need in a in a digital environment to deliver that customer you know quality product from end to end and protect your IP yeah exactly where T is a big one so we'll talk about more about security data maybe there's a general topic and then let's go to dig deeper every good for sure I mean security is obviously one of our big drivers I mean obviously with everything that's been in the news lately we're no different in the sense that we take it very very seriously you know on the data protection front like I said we're big store wants customers we love the product we're using it heavily in our in our data center to protect our content as well as our data so how much time let's unpack that a little bit what's it what's it look like laughs so you said a bunch of different you know HP products can you can you help us to understand how much you know storage kind of servers what kind of apps paint a picture of your your infrastructure for sure so we've got you know a lot actually several racks of gear 3par like I said we're big three part customers so we have several racks a three part that we're using kind of across the board a lot on the database side you know and heiio scenarios storeonce is kind of that underpinning piece that everything funnels back to that provides you know data deduplication backup archival that kind of thing okay so can we talk more about sort of your objectives of protecting data I mean obviously don't lose it but there's you know time to recover there's data loss how are you approaching that yep so we we've got you know our primary facility at switch as well as a dr facility off-site we're using store once we r you know we've got them in both places we're doing replication both ways to ensure you know if we were to have a vent at one facility or we didn't have data available we can quickly recover from the other you know rtly is it's been a great success for us because we've moved from tape-based you know back up and i really didn't mention that but you know where we came from you know two two and a half years ago you know from our LA and chandler data centers we have very very heavy investment in tape infrastructure and one of the things we into decided when we went to this new you know environment in Las Vegas is we wanted it to be completely tapeless you know to be flexible right in that environment and you know we pick store once we went all disk-based and you know RTO wise is fantastic because you know as opposed to tape if you have an event if you happen to not have the tape on site your RT 0 is dictated you know kind of by when you can get the tape back with the exit yes yes fast as you can get here right with the store once though it's just there we can we can you know bring it back in minutes and in fact we actually had a kind of not funny but but interesting incident happened early on where you know we kind of had an hoops incident where somebody deleted a vm and you know with store once we already had it had it there we were able to recover it in minutes and have it working again which is not something we were able to do in in previous iteration so it's really RTO is your primary supposed to RP oh yeah and Patrick I'm sure you see it all over the board with with customers right i mean yeah absolutely i mean it is the whole environment is based on this digital content that it's the lifeblood of you know what they're doing as a business and what they're delivering you know to your customers so that what we're seeing in the data protection standpoint is that more apps are mission critical right they're moving from business-critical the mission-critical the RTOS and our feos are definitely more aggressive you know month by month quarter-by-quarter people are moving from days two hours to minutes and we want to have more they won't have access to more data that's near line and online for so you can basically restore that right away so we're seeing people architecting solutions for store ones where they'd want a couple weeks maybe a couple months of data stored on that from a vaca perspective now we're talking having conversations about three to five years seven years 10 years right so definitely a paradigm shift in terms of data protection and the clouds change that a lot absolutely how so talk about that I think you know because the cloud there's not really a concept of tape per se I mean I know you know some providers have a delayed you know a kind of recovery type mechanism but I think in general people are assuming you've got the data on disk or you know available somewhere and you're able to recall it right and you know almost any cloud provider I think today is structured that way and has some kind of object storage where you can back up to but it's an online situation right and I think that's kind of become the new the new standard for the expectation of you know it's dumping it into an object store an able to recover from that yeah i like to say backup is one thing recoveries everything so there's a software component that that's the good that and what about tape you using I mean you must be used tape in your business right we do still have tape but I think where it makes sense we're trying to get rid of it you know we obviously there's a lot of physical nature with tape you know for us it's also manpower you have to have you know it's a lot of manpower involved in just managing tape and whatnot so where we can especially strategically in our data centers we're trying to get out out of using tape and using you know just a long-term archiving long-term retention with your digital assets obviously you would take for that we definitely have scenarios at the studio where it's still used for sure yeah but not obviously not for backup no yeah yeah I think you know with my team we're starting to think of the the notion of backup maybe in the traditional sense it's kind of going away because I think what people think of backup they think tape they think these scenarios and I think it's you know it's changing to more of a you know having having various generations on disk so you have the concept of you know okay being able to go back in time but near real-time recovery a time machine for the enterprise yeah yeah we talk when we talk to customers it's usually around the areas of application data protection or a service data protection and then long term preservation of assets as opposed to backup and archive right so there because they have a very different business processes around them and you can apply different technologies to the two of them so in some some technologies are appropriate for one some are appropriate for the others so we're you know we're seeing a lot of customers really focus on day one of how I'm going to protect that data how I'm going to make data protection an automatic part of the infrastructure so I don't have to have separate backup team and separate you know specific processes this whole area of things being sort of automatically protected as part of the infrastructure is it's definitely worth a lot but I think that's a really important point to make data protection has historically been a bolt on right uh we got to protect the data yep and so you're saying that you're finally seeing customers integrate data protection as part of the fundamental solution absolutely the two things so the two things that now I'm seeing it from a fundamental part of the initial solution bill that is data protections built in right so you're seeing the techniques of snapshot and replication being melded with you know backup techniques like policy management indexing and all that kind of stuff right and then the other sort of conversation we're having with people who put infrastructure in place is how am I going to get off this in five years five to seven years right so because the amount the size of the data sets are becoming so big that replicating data data migrations migrating your backup data are there they're difficult the difficult task so people are doing a lot more planning ahead to understand how am I going to protect this data now right from a different set of scenarios and how am I going to start do some hardware lifecycle management from an infrastructure standpoint underneath that data as I go into the future are you a data protector customer what do you use not not currently although we are you know we are looking at it for sure yeah today we're actually net back up yeah yeah okay I mean it's a lot of ways to skin that kappa yeah that's still not in your group is it nope nice meg just make it but they have a saying this for a decade the data protect there should be a part of the storage solution I mean it's anyway we work with them every day fantastic I got a tight relationship yeah yeah I'm still get paid for it do get paid for it that's good okay well that's a start yeah yeah awesome alright let's see what else uh what's going on the show this year with you Oh lots of stuff of the show so obviously you you heard about flash right yeah we've heard a lot of flashes fam yeah it's great mokin fast yeah so there's a in it's funny there's a lot of implications to flash even on data protection right so this is a big area for us obviously is huge in the market the media and the speed in what flash brings to the table allows you to do some different things from Dave protection standpoint as well right so this concept of copy data management you've heard this in terms of now i can take copies of databases copies of data sets serve them up to uat test development environment so you know your speed of development by having access to copies of that you know of that original production data set is being enabled by media like flash no flash you can do lots of random i/o you can with with modern architectures like three par for example it's multi-tenant right you have quality of service on there so now we're in the past you'd have to clone a number of data sets copy them off restore them from backups for the purposes of having a you know a test data set now you can run all that on the same infrastructure so flash is great from a performance standpoint for you know speeding up your transactions feeding of your database your workflow but there's a lot of other things that allows us to do to help the overall speed of development which is kind of cool so the copy data management things interesting I mean yeah so active feos obviously popularizing it Dell fixes another one yeah the problem is they want me to rip out or not use my might reap are snapshots and I love my three parts don't want to put in a whole new infrastructure around it so is there I mean the opportunity you got a catalog in in-store wants maybe I could use that somehow that technology so that's what we're doing right so we're taking these techniques that you've had in traditional backup for years and then things you have on primary storage right snapshots and replication but with the with the advantages of flash now you're able to do a lot more with it and bringing those two techniques together we're doing it with software we're doing it with sort of extensible protocols and SD SDKs on the infrastructure itself so we're not introducing any sort of sand virtualization techniques or you know in line fibre channel you know type of virtualization technology we're allowing you do that as a part of the infrastructure itself so you know we're combining things like three par with Recovery Manager central and store ones to provide those type of experience I think the killer app they're Jews potentially is test dev right i mean if you can take copies that are more current give it to the especially with flash give it to the developers but they're not working on you know n minus three copies absolutely yeah and they're way more productive I know what kind of discussions are you having internal how do you service the developer community are they what kind of pressures are they putting on you bill yeah it's that probably the same things you've heard I mean you know agility speed I know for us you know because we're we're big on the cloud journey right now in terms of delivering you know private cloud services for our customers inside Fox one of the areas where we're actively really striving for is to do you know some deeper integration with some of the dev teams where they've got you know kind of closed loop cycles you know DevOps type cycles that they're developing with you know familiar tooling which you know is in the market that out there the Jenkins etc you know my team we're definitely working on trying to integrate a lot of the automation we're doing around cloud with what they're doing on the test dev site to kind of create a nice you know cohesive whole so you know rather than delivering just a server to them we can deliver an entire in a build environment and tear it down you know build it up and tear down dynamic flames so you mentioned a store once customer talked about RTO being really on the primary metric that you're trying to optimize waiting sir patrick comes out to California you know hits the beach makes a quick sales call writes it off wait what do you want to know from him yeah okay Oh with you that the time so what kind of discussions do you have with with Patrick around where you want to where you want to go what you want out of the product when I roadmap to the club yeah I think one of the things you know we're as I said before you know we're three par and store wants customers and I think we're where we see you know things headed in the future we'd love to see even deeper integration with three par and store once and you know we're actually having a discussion my team before this and one of the things they threw out there like hey why can't we just combine them into one product you know and I know right now they're separate but sure maybe maybe in the near future you know the the notion of having this this external device it's separate from 3par that you're you know moving to you know maybe maybe some of that gets melded together and what does that do for you it minimizes the need to manage another appliance absolutely right so it simplifies your your infrastructure tighter integration yep so better reliability and yeah I mean you know we're like a lot of technology shops in the sense that well we're trying to squeeze you know as much as we can you know with the team that we have in terms of Technology and still deliver a lot of services so you know we're always looking to if we can take two and make it one or you know that kind of scenario for simplification that's what we want to do too and more with less but no so let me ask you a question when you do more with less and you've dropped money to the CFO's bottom line today they carve off the you get a lick off that cone or they say hey they'll nice job here's a little you know we'll take twenty percent of that savings and give it back yeah it's I for us it's just the you know the slap on the back the handshake that we did it what are you seeing without me from our mothers hear from our product portfolio standpoint we're simplifying right we want to have I think we're in a unique position in terms of we want to be the best storage division inside of HP Enterprise right we don't want to be the best storage division standalone right so that affords us a lot of experiences for that we can bring to the customer when you bring in you know the blades and compute and networking and storage I mean what you see up on stage with one view and all of our element managers you know it's it doesn't sound sexy at the end of the day but basically having a same look and feel the same taxonomy that you use for all of our products is like a huge simplification for customers not having to you know learn new you is and why not so we have other competitors who you know they're bringing 7 10 12 you know different architectures for a primary storage the table right we're consolidating that and providing customers that the ability to they can go in a cost optimized software to find you know deployment model you can have appliances that are tuned in high performance same look and feel same CLI same utilities same data services so we want choice but it has to be simple because too much so what do you think about that whole software-defined mean is that the future is it this Patrick sort of implying sort of the the lower-cost sort of software only model what do you guys say yeah well we're big believers in software to find you know like I said we're we're kind of in it on you know on the whole stack in the sense that we know not only a part where we have software with HP we're also doing a lot with the team around Helion OpenStack right now and you know one of the big bets we're making is we think openstax going to be big we you know I know internally when we've talked with you know a lot of the development teams the idea of API defined infrastructure that's more malleable is tremendously exciting so what are you in with OpenStack well so right now we're actually we're kind of in that you know early stage entire ya des you know trying to trying to get a feel for it cuz you know one of the things I always say you know right now with OpenStack is it's kind of a two-way street you know there's the infrastructure part of it that my team has to deliver but the the other side of it is really the developers you know getting their hands around it getting a feel for it you know maybe even doing some platform-as-a-service with Cloud Foundry you know that kind of thing and they're really developing for that platform and getting the most out of it because you know in a lot of cases you know you're coming from a traditional environment where you know you had physical servers you put virtualization on top of it everybody's kind of used to that maybe a single VM kind of scenario but when you move to something like OpenStack you kind of got to rethink how you approach application building just think all right gents we're out of time going to leave it there but Patrick last last word for you why HP why HP I think we've got some exciting times ahead of us this year right so unlocking some velocity and value for for everyone with HP Enterprise kind of like just to echo what I said before about you know we're a portfolio company that brings a lot of technology services to our customers and at the end of the day my bet is that standalone companies that focus on one thing like storage or one thing like network or specifically compute I don't see a path forward for that over time right customers are buying solutions and systems and converged art you know infrastructure how you see this you know hyper converge theme right HP is one of the few companies that can bring all those elements to our customers as part of the equation so that for me that's why I stay here and why we've got such a great technology path forward yeah the 80s and 90s are about disintegration of IT and creating those silos and now we're seeing the reintegration so Patrick a bill thanks very much for coming on the cube absolutely thank you so much to have you guys here all right all right keep it right to everybody will be back with our next guest right after this short break you

>>Good afternoon from the Venetian Expo, center, hall, whatever you wanna call it, in Las Vegas. Lisa Martin here. It's day four. I'm not sure what this place is called. Wait, >>What? >>Lisa Martin here with Dave Ante. This is the cube. This is day four of a ton of coverage that we've been delivering to you, which, you know, cause you've been watching since Monday night, Dave, we are almost at the end, we're almost at the show wrap. Excited to bring back, we've been talking about security, a lot about security. Excited to bring back a, an alumni to talk about that. But what's your final thoughts? >>Well, so just in, in, in the context of security, we've had just three in a row talking about cyber, which is like the most important topic. And I, and I love that we're having Palo Alto Networks on Palo Alto Networks is the gold standard in security. Talk to CISOs, they wanna work with them. And, and it was, it's interesting because I've been following them for a little bit now, watch them move to the cloud and a couple of little stumbling points. But I said at the time, they're gonna figure it out and, and come rocking back. And they have, and the company's just performing unbelievably well despite, you know, all the macro headwinds that we love to >>Talk about. So. Right. And we're gonna be unpacking all of that with one of our alumni. As I mentioned, Anker Shaw is with us, the SVP and GM of Palo Alto Networks. Anker, welcome back to the Cub. It's great to see you. It's been a while. >>It's good to be here after a couple years. Yeah, >>Yeah. I think three. >>Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. It's a bit of a blur after Covid. >>Everyone's saying that. Yeah. Are you surprised that there are still this many people on the show floor? Cuz I am. >>I am. Yeah. Look, I am not, this is my fourth, last year was probably one third or one fourth of this size. Yeah. But pre covid, this is what dream went looked like. And it's energizing, it's exciting. It's just good to be doing the good old things. So many people and yeah. Amazing technology and innovation. It's been incredible. >>Let's talk about innovation. I know you guys, Palo Alto Networks recently acquired cyber security. Talk to us a little bit about that. How is it gonna compliment Prisma? Give us all the scoop on that. >>Yeah, for sure. Look, some of the recent, the cybersecurity attacks that we have seen are related to supply chain, the colonial pipeline, many, many supply chain. And the reason for that is the modern software supply chain, not the physical supply chain, the one that AWS announced, but this is the software supply chain is really incredibly complicated, complicated developers that are building and shipping code faster than ever before. And the, the site acquisition at the center, the heart of that was securing the entire supply chain. White House came with a new initiative on supply chain security and SBO software bill of material. And we needed a technology, a company, and a set of people who can really deliver to that. And that's why we acquired that for supply chain security, otherwise known as cicd, security, c >>IDC security. Yeah. So how will that complement PRIs McCloud? >>Yeah, so look, if you look at our history lease over the last four years, we have been wanting to, our mission mission has been to build a single code to cloud platform. As you may know, there are over 3000 security vendors in the industry. And we said enough is enough. We need a platform player who can really deliver a unified cohesive platform solution for our customers because they're sick and tired of buying PI point product. So our mission has been to deliver that code to cloud platform supply chain security was a missing piece and we acquired them, it fits right really nicely into our portfolio of products and solution that customers have. And they'll have a single pin of glass with this. >>Yeah. So there's a lot going on. You've got, you've got an adversary that is incredibly capable. Yeah. These days and highly motivated and extremely sophisticated mentioned supply chain. It's caused a shift in, in CSO strategies, talking about the pandemic, of course we know work from home that changed things. You've mentioned public policy. Yeah. And, and so, and as well you have the cloud, cloud, you know, relatively new. I mean, it's not that new, but still. Yeah. But you've got the shared responsibility model and not, not only do you have the shared responsibility model, you have the shared responsibility across clouds and OnPrem. So yes, the cloud helps with security, but that the CISO has to worry about all these other things. The, the app dev team is being asked to shift left, you know, secure and they're not security pros. Yeah. And you know, kind audit is like the last line of defense. So I love this event, I love the cloud, but customers need help in making their lives simpler. Yeah. And the cloud in and of itself, because, you know, shared responsibility doesn't do that. Yeah. That's what Palo Alto and firms like yours come in. >>Absolutely. So look, Jim, this is a unable situation for a lot of the Cisco, simply because there are over 26 million developers, less than 3 million security professional. If you just look at all the announcement the AWS made, I bet you there were like probably over 2000 features. Yeah. I mean, they're shipping faster than ever before. Developers are moving really, really fast and just not enough security people to keep up with the velocity and the innovation. So you are right, while AWS will guarantee securing the infrastructure layer, but everything that is built on top of it, the new machine learning stuff, the new application, the new supply chain applications that are developed, that's the responsibility of the ciso. They stay up at night, they don't know what's going on because developers are bringing new services and new technology. And that's why, you know, we've always taken a platform approach where customers and the systems don't have to worry about it. >>What AWS new service they have, it's covered, it's secured. And that's why the adopters, McCloud and Palo Alto Networks, because regardless what developers bring, security is always there by their side. And so security teams need just a simple one click solution. They don't have to worry about it. They can sleep at night, keep the bad actors away. And, and that's, that's where Palo Alto Networks has been innovating in this area. AWS is one of our biggest partners and you know, we've integrated with, with a lot of their services. We launch about three integrations with their services. And we've been doing this historically for more and >>More. Are you still having conversations with the security folks? Or because security is a board level conversation, are your conversations going up a stack because this is a C-suite problem, this is a board level initiative? >>Absolutely. Look, you know, there was a time about four years ago, like the best we could do is director of security. Now it's just so CEO level conversation, board level conversation to your point, simply because I mean, if, if all your financial stuff is going to public cloud, all your healthcare data, all your supply chain data is going to public cloud, the board is asking very simple question, what are you doing to secure that? And to be honest, the question is simple. The answer's not because all the stuff that we talked about, too many applications, lots and lots of different services, different threat vectors and the bad actors, the bad guys are always a step ahead of the curve. And that's why this has become a board level conversation. They wanna make sure that things are secure from the get go before, you know, the enterprises go too deep into public cloud adoption. >>I mean there, there was shift topics a little bit. There was hope or kinda early this year that that cyber was somewhat insulated from the sort of macro press pressures. Nobody's safe. Even the cloud is sort of, you know, facing those, those headwinds people optimizing costs. But one thing when you talk to customers is, I always like to talk about that, that optiv graph. We've all seen it, right? And it's just this eye test of tools and it's a beautiful taxonomy, but there's just too many tools. So we're seeing a shift from point tools to platforms because obviously a platform play, and that's a way. So what are you seeing in the, in the field with customers trying to optimize their infrastructure costs with regard to consolidating to >>Platforms? Yeah. Look, you rightly pointed out one thing, the cybersecurity industry in general and Palo Alto networks, knock on wood, the stocks doing well. The macro headwinds hasn't impacted the security spend so far, right? Like time will tell, we'll, we'll see how things go. And one of the primary reason is that when you know the economy starts to slow down, the customers again want to invest in platforms. It's simple to deploy, simple to operationalize. They want a security partner of choice that knows that they, it's gonna be by them through the entire journey from code to cloud. And so that's why platform, especially times like these are more important than they've ever been before. You know, customers are investing in the, the, the product I lead at Palo Alto network called Prisma Cloud. It's in the cloud network application protection platform seen app space where once again, customers that investing in platform from quote to cloud and avoiding all the point products for sure. >>Yeah. Yeah. And you've seen it in, in Palo Alto's performance. I mean, not every cyber firm has is, is, >>You know, I know. Ouch. CrowdStrike Yeah. >>Was not. Well you saw that. I mean, and it was, and and you know, the large customers were continuing to spend, it was the small and mid-size businesses Yeah. That were, were were a little bit soft. Yeah. You know, it's a really, it's really, I mean, you see Okta now, you know, after they had some troubles announcing that, you know, their, their, their visibility's a little bit better. So it's, it's very hard to predict right now. And of course if TOMA Brava is buying you, then your stock price has been up and steady. That's, >>Yeah. Look, I think the key is to have a diversified portfolio of products. Four years ago before our CEO cash took over the reins of the company, we were a single product X firewall company. Right. And over time we have added XDR with the first one to introduce that recently launched x Im, you know, to, to make sure we build an NextGen team, cloud security is a completely net new investment, zero trust with access as workers started working remotely and they needed to make sure enterprises needed to make sure that they're accessing the applications securely. So we've added a lot of portfolio products over time. So you have to remain incredibly diversified, stay strong, because there will be stuff like remote work that slowed down. But if you've got other portfolio product like cloud security, while those secular tailwinds continue to grow, I mean, look how fast AWS is growing. 35, 40%, like $80 billion run rate. Crazy at that, that scale. So luckily we've got the portfolio of products to ensure that regardless of what the customer's journey is, macro headwinds are, we've got portfolio of solutions to help our customers. >>Talk a little bit about the AWS partnership. You talked about the run rate and I was reading a few days ago. You're right. It's an 82 billion arr, massive run rate. It's crazy. Well, what are, what is a Palo Alto Networks doing with aws and what's the value in it to help your customers on a secure digital transformation journey? >>Well, absolutely. We have been doing business with aws. We've been one of their security partners of choice for many years now. We have a presence in the marketplace where customers can through one click deploy the, the several Palo Alto Networks security solutions. So that's available. Like I said, we had launch partner to many, many new products and innovation that AWS comes up with. But always the day one partner, Adam was talking about some of those announcements and his keynote security data lake was one of those. And they were like a bunch of others related to compute and others. So we have been a partner for a long time, and look, AWS is an incredibly customer obsessed company. They've got their own security products. But if the customer says like, Hey, like I'd like to pick this from yours, but there's three other things from Palo Alto Networks or S MacCloud or whatever else that may be, they're open to it. And that's the great thing about AWS where it doesn't have to be wall garden open ecosystem, let the customer pick the best. >>And, and that's, I mean, there's, there's examples where AWS is directly competitive. I mean, my favorite example is Redshift and Snowflake. I mean those are directly competitive products, but, but Snowflake is an unbelievably great relationship with aws. They do cyber's, I think different, I mean, yeah, you got guard duty and you got some other stuff there. But generally speaking, the, correct me if I'm wrong, the e the ecosystem has more room to play on AWS than it may on some other clouds. >>A hundred percent. Yeah. Once again, you know, guard duty for examples, we've got a lot of customers who use guard duty and Prisma Cloud and other Palo Alto Networks products. And we also ingest the data from guard duty. So if customers want a single pane of glass, they can use the best of AWS in terms of guard duty threat detection, but leverage other technology suite from, you know, a platform provider like Palo Alto Networks. So you know, that that, you know, look, world is a complicated place. Some like blue, some like red, whatever that may be. But we believe in giving customers that choice, just like AWS customers want that. Not a >>Problem. And at least today they're not like directly, you know, in your space. Yeah. You know, and even if they were, you've got such a much mature stack. Absolutely. And my, my frankly Microsoft's different, right? I mean, you see, I mean even the analysts were saying that some of the CrowdStrike's troubles for, cuz Microsoft's got the good enough, right? So >>Yeah. Endpoint security. Yeah. And >>Yeah, for sure. So >>Do you have a favorite example of a customer where Palo Alto Networks has really helped them come in and, and enable that secure business transformation? Anything come to mind that you think really shines a light on Palo Alto Networks and what it's able to do? >>Yeah, look, we have customers across, and I'm gonna speak to public cloud in general, right? Like Palo Alto has over 60,000 customers. So we've been helping with that business transformation for years now. But because it's reinvented aws, the Prisma cloud product has been helping customers across different industry verticals. Some of the largest credit card processing companies, they can process transactions because we are running security on top of the workloads, the biggest financial services, biggest healthcare customers. They're able to put the patient health records in public cloud because Palo Alto Networks is helping them get there. So we are helping accelerated that digital journey. We've been an enabler. Security is often perceived as a blocker, but we have always treated our role as enabler. How can we get developers and enterprises to move as fast as possible? And like, my favorite thing is that, you know, moving fast and going digital is not a monopoly of just a tech company. Every company is gonna be a tech company Oh absolutely. To public cloud. Yes. And we want to help them get there. Yeah. >>So the other thing too, I mean, I'll just give you some data. I love data. I have a, ETR is our survey partner and I'm looking at Data 395. They do a survey every quarter, 1,250 respondents on this survey. 395 were Palo Alto customers, fortune 500 s and P 500, you know, big global 2000 companies as well. Some small companies. Single digit churn. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Very, very low replacement >>Rates. Absolutely. >>And still high single digit new adoption. Yeah. Right. So you've got that tailwind going for you. Yeah, >>Right. It's, it's sticky because especially our, our main business firewall, once you deploy the firewall, we are inspecting all the network traffic. It's just so hard to rip and replace. Customers are getting value every second, every minute because we are thwarting attacks from public cloud. And look, we, we, we provide solutions not just product, we just don't leave the product and ask the customers to deploy it. We help them with deployment consumption of the product. And we've been really fortunate with that kind of gross dollar and netten rate for our customers. >>Now, before we wrap, I gotta tease, the cube is gonna be at Palo Alto Ignite. Yeah. In two weeks back here. I think we're at D mgm, right? We >>Were at D MGM December 13th and >>14th. So give us a little, show us a little leg if you would. What could we expect? >>Hey, look, I mean, a lot of exciting new things coming. Obviously I can't talk about it right now. The PR Inc is still not dry yet. But lots of, lots of new innovation across our three main businesses. Network security, public cloud, security, as well as XDR X. Im so stay tuned. You know, you'll, you'll see a lot of new exciting things coming up. >>Looking forward to it. >>We are looking forward to it. Last question on curf. You, if you had a billboard to place in New York Times Square. Yeah. You're gonna take over the the the Times Square Nasdaq. What does the billboard say about why organizations should be working with Palo Alto Networks? Yeah. To really embed security into their dna. Yeah. >>You know when Jim said Palo Alto Networks is the gold standard for security, I thought it was gonna steal it. I think it's pretty good gold standard for security. But I'm gonna go with our mission cyber security partner's choice. We want to be known as that and that's who we are. >>Beautifully said. Walker, thank you so much for joining David in the program. We really appreciate your insights, your time. We look forward to seeing you in a couple weeks back here in Vegas. >>Absolutely. Can't have enough of Vegas. Thank you. Lisa. >>Can't have in Vegas, >>I dunno about that. By this time of the year, I think we can have had enough of Vegas, but we're gonna be able to see you on the cubes coverage, which you could catch up. Palo Alto Networks show Ignite December, I believe 13th and 14th on the cube.net. We want to thank Anker Shaw for joining us. For Dave Ante, this is Lisa Martin. You're watching the Cube, the leader in live enterprise and emerging tech coverage.

>>Hello, and welcome to the cubes presentation of the AWS startup showcase. This is season two, episode four, the ongoing series covering exciting startups from the AWS ecosystem to talk about cyber security. I'm your host, John feer. And today we're excited to join by a Mediatel Walker, CEO of Quin security and sub IER, vice president of product management of sequence security gentlemen, thanks for joining us today on this showcase. >>Thank you, John PRAs. >>So the title of this session is continuous API protection life cycle to discover, detect, and defend security. APIs are part of it. They're hardened, everyone's using them, but they're they're target for malicious behavior. This is the focus of this segment. You guys are in the leading edge of this. What are the biggest challenges for organizations right now in assessing their security risks? Because you're seeing APIs all over the place in the news, just even this week, Twitter had a whistleblower come out from the security group, talking about their security plans, misleading the FTC on the bots and some of the malicious behavior inside the API interface of Twitter. This is really a mainstream Washington post is reporting on it. New York times, all the global outlets are talking about this story. This is the risk. I mean, yeah, this is what you guys do protect against this. >>Yeah, this is absolutely top of mind for a lot of security folks today. So obviously in the media and the type of attack that that is being discussed with this whistleblower coming out is called reputation bombing. This is not new. This has been going on since I would say at least eight to 10 years where the, the bad actors are using bots or automation and ultimately using APIs on these large social media platforms, whether it's Facebook, whether it's Twitter or some other social media platform and messing with the reputation system of those large platforms. And what I mean by that is they will do fake likes, fake commenting, fake retweeting in the case of Twitter. And what that means is that things that are, should not be very popular, all of a sudden become popular. That that way they're able to influence things like elections, shopping habits, personnel. >>We, we work with similar profile companies and we see this all the time. We, we mostly work on some of the secondary platforms like dating and other sort of social media platforms around music sharing and things like video sharing. And we see this all the time. These, these bots are bad. Actors are using bots, but ultimately it's an API problem. It's not just a bot problem. And that's what we've been trying to sort of preach to the world, which is your bot problem is subset of your API security challenges that you deal as an organization. >>You know, IMIA, we talked about this in the past on a previous conversation, but this really is front and center mainstream for the whole world to see around the challenges. All companies face, every CSO, every CIO, every board member organizations out there looking at this security posture that spans not just information technology, but physical and now social engineering. You have all kinds of new payloads of malicious behavior that are being compromised through, through things like APIs. This is not just about CSO, chief information security officer. This is chief security officer issues. What's your reaction >>Very much so I think the, this is a security problem, but it's also a reputation problem. In some cases, it's a data governance problem. We work with several companies which have very restrictive data governance and data regulations or data residency regulations there to conform to those regulations. And they have to look at that. It's not just a CSO problem anymore. In case of the, the news of the day to day, this is a platform problem. This goes all the way to the, that time CTO of Twitter. And now the CEO of Twitter, who was in charge of dealing with these problems. We see as just to give you an example, we, we work, we work with a similar sort of social media platform that allows Oop based login to their platform that is using tokens. You can sort of sign in with Facebook, sign in with Twitter, sign in with Google. These are API keys that are generated and trusted by these social media platforms. When we saw that Facebook leaked about 50 million of these login credentials or API keys, this was about three, four years ago. I wrote a blog about it. We saw a huge spike in those API keys being used to log to other social media platforms. So although one social platform might be taking care of its, you know, API or what problem, if something else gets reached somewhere else, it has a cascading impact on a variety of platforms. >>You know, that's a really interesting dynamic. And if you think about just the token piece that you mentioned, that's kind of under the coverage, that's a technology challenge, but also you get in the business logic. So let's go back and, and unpack that, okay, they discontinue the tokens. Now they're being reused here. In the case of Twitter, I was talking to an executive here in Silicon valley and they said, yeah, it's a cautionary tale, for sure. Although Twitter's a unique situation, but they abstract out the business value and say, Hey, they had an M and a deal on the table. And so if someone wants to unwind that deal, all I gotta say is, Hey, there's a bot problem. And now you have essentially new kinds of risk in the business have nothing to do with some sign the technology, okay. They got a security breach, but here with Twitter, you have an, an, an M and a deal, an acquisition that's being contested because of the, the APIs. So, so if you're in business, you gotta think to yourself, what am I risking with my API? So every organization should be assessing their security risks, tied to their APIs. This is a huge awakening for them. Where should they start? And that's the, that's the core question. Okay. You got my attention risks with the API. What do I do? >>So when I talked to you in my previous interview, the start is basically knowing what to, in most cases, you see these that are hitting the wire much. Every now there is a major in cases you'll find these APIs are targeted, that are not poorly protected. They're absolutely just not protected at all, which means the security team or any sort of team that is responsible for protecting these APIs are just completely unaware of these APIs being there in the first place. And this is where we talk about the shadow it or shadow API problem. Large enterprises have teams that are geo distributed, and this problem is escalated after the pandemic even more because now you have teams that are completely distributed. They do M and a. So they acquire new companies and have no visibility into their API or security practices. And so there are a lot of driving factors why these APIs are just not protected and, and just unknown even more to the security team. So the first step has to be discover your API attack surface, and then prioritize which APIs you wanna target in terms of runtime protection. >>Yeah. I wanna dig into that API kind of attack surface area management, runtime monitoring capability in a second, but so I wanna get you in here too, because we're talking about APIs, we're talking about attacks. What does an API attack look like? >>Yeah, that's a very good question, John, there are really two different forms of attacks of APIs, one type of attack, exploits, APIs that have known vulnerabilities or some form of vulnerabilities. For instance, APIs that may use a weak form of authentication or are really built with no authentication at all, or have some sort of vulnerability that makes them very good targets for an attacker to target. And the second form of attack is a more subtle one. It's called business logic abuse. It's, it's utilizing APIs in completely legitimate manner manners, but exploiting those APIs to exfiltrate information or key sensitive information that was probably not thought through by the developer or the designers or those APIs. And really when we do API protection, we really need to be able to handle both of those scenarios, protect against abuse of APIs, such as broken authentication, or broken object level authorization APIs with that problem, as well as protecting APIs from business logic abuse. And that's really how we, you know, differentiate against other vendors in this >>Market. So just what are the, those key differentiated ways to identify the, in the malicious intents with APIs? Can you, can you just summarize that real quick, the three ways? >>Sure. Yeah, absolutely. There are three key ways that we differentiate against our competition. One is in the, we have built out a, in the ability to actually detect such traffic. We have built out a very sophisticated threat intelligence network built over the entire lifetime of the company where we have very well curated information about malicious infrastructures, malicious operators around the world, including not just it address ranges, but also which infrastructures do they operate on and stuff like that, which actually helps a lot in, in many environments in especially B2C environments, that alone accounts for a lot of efficacy for us in detecting our weed out bad traffic. The second aspect is in analyzing the request that are coming in the API traffic that is coming in and from the request itself, being able to tell if there is credential abuse going on or credential stuffing going on or known patterns that the traffic is exhibiting, that looks like it is clearly trying to attack the attack, the APM. >>And the third one is, is really more sophisticated as they go farther and farther. It gets more sophisticated where sequence actually has a lot of machine learning models built in which actually profile the traffic that is coming in and separate. So the legitimate or learns the legitimate traffic from the anomalous or suspicious traffic. So as the traffic, as the API requests are coming in, it automatically can tell that this traffic does not look like legitimate traffic does not look like the traffic that this API typically gets and automatically uses that to figure out, okay, where is this traffic coming from? And automatically takes action to prevent that attack? >>You know, it's interesting APIs have been part of the goodness of cloud and cloud scale. And it reminds me of the old Andy Grove quote, founder of, in one of the founders of Intel, you know, let chaos, let, let the chaos happen, then reign it in it's APIs. You know, a lot of people have been creating them and you've got a lot of different stakeholders involved in creating them. And so now securing them and now manage them. So a lot of creation now you're starting to secure them and now you gotta manage 'em. This all is now big focus. As you pointed out, what are some of the dynamics that customers who have to deal with on the product side and, and organization, let, let chaos rain, and then rain in the chaos, as, as the saying goes, what, what do companies do? >>Yeah. Typically companies start off with like, like a mayor talked about earlier. Discovery is really the key thing to start with, like figuring out what your API attack surfaces and really getting your arms around that problem. And typically we are finding customers start that off from the security organization, the CSO organization to really go after that problem. And in some cases, in some customers, we even find like dedicated centers of excellence that are created for API security, which go after that problem to be able to get their arms around the whole API attack surface and the API protection problem statement. So that's where usually that problem starts to get addressed. >>I mean, organizations and your customers have to stop the attacks. A lot of different techniques, you know, run time. You mentioned that earlier, the surface area monitoring, what's the choice. What's the, where are, where are, where is everybody? Is everyone in the, in the boiling water, like the frog and boiling water or they do, they know it's happening? Like what did they do? What's their opportunity to get in >>Position? Yeah. So I, I think let's take a step back a little bit, right? What has happened is if you draw the cloud security market, if you will, right. Which is the journey to the cloud, the security of these applications or APIs at a container level, in terms of vulnerabilities and, and other things that market grew with the journey to the cloud, pretty much locked in lockstep. What has happened in the API side is the API space has kind of lacked behind the growth and explosion in the API space. So what that means is APIs are getting published way faster than the security teams are able to sort of control and secure them. APIs are getting published in environments that the security completely unaware of. We talked about in the past about the parameter, the parameter, as we know, it doesn't exist anymore. It used to be the case that you hit a CDN, you terminate your SSL, you stop your layer three and four DDoS. >>And then you go into the application and do the business logic. That parameter is just gone because it's now could be living in multi-cloud environment. It could be living in the on-prem environment, which is PubNet is friendly. And so security teams that are used to protecting apps, using a perimeter defense plus changes, it's gone. You need to figure out where your perimeter is. And therefore we sort of recommend an approach, which is have a uniform view across all your APIs, wherever they could be distributed and have a single point of control across those with a solution like sequence. And there are others also in this space, which is giving you that uniform view, which is first giving you that, you know, outside and looking view of what APIs to protect. And then let's, you sort of take the journey of securing the API life cycle. >>So I would say that every company now hear me out on this indulges me for a second. Every company in the world will be non perimeter based, except for maybe 5% because of maybe unique reason, proprietary lockdown, information, whatever. But for most, most companies, everyone will be in the cloud or some cloud native, non perimeter based security posture. So the question is, how does your platform fit into that trajectory? And specifically, why are you guys in the position in your mind to help customers solve this API problem? Because again, APIs have been the greatest thing about the cloud, right? Yeah. So the goodness is there because of APS. Now you gotta reign it in reign in the chaos. Yeah. What, what about your platform share? What is it, why is it win? Why should customers care about this? >>Absolutely. So if you think about it, you're right, the parameter doesn't exist. People have APIs deployed in multiple environments, multicloud hybrid, you name it sequence is uniquely positioned in a way that we can work with your environment. No matter what that environment is. We're the only player in this space that can protect your APIs purely as a SA solution or purely as an on-prem deployment. And that could be a SaaS platform. It doesn't need to be RackN, but we also support that and we could be a hybrid deployment. We have some deployments which are on your prem and the rest of this solution is in our SA. If you think about it, customers have secured their APIs with sequence with 15 minutes, you know, going live from zero to life and getting that protection instantaneously. We have customers that are processing a billion API calls per day, across variety of different cloud environments in sort of six different brands. And so that scale, that flexibility of where we can plug into your infrastructure or be completely off of your infrastructure is something unique to sequence that we offer that nobody else is offering >>Today. Okay. So I'll be, I'll be a naysayer. Yeah, look, it, we are perfectly coded APIs. We are the best in the business. We're locked down. Our APIs are as tight as a drum. Why do I need you? >>So that goes back to who's answer. Of course, >>Everyone's say that that's, that's great, but that's my argument. >>There are two types of API attacks. One is a tactic problem, which is exploiting a vulnerability in an API, right? So what you're saying is my APIs are secure. It does not have any vulnerability I've taken care of all vulnerabilities. The second type of attack that targets APIs is the business logic. Use this stuff in the news this week, which is the whistleblower problem, which is, if you think APIs that Twitter is publishing for users are perfectly secure. They are taking care of all the vulnerabilities and patching them when they find new ones. But it's the business logic of, you know, REWE liking or commenting that the bots are targeting, which they have no against. Right. And then none of the other social networks too. Yeah. So there are many examples. Uber wrote a program to impersonate users in different geo locations to find lifts, pricing, and driver information and passenger information, completely legitimate use of APIs for illegitimate, illegitimate purpose using bots. So you don't need bots by the way, don't, don't make this about bot versus not. Yeah. You can use APIs sort of for the, the purpose that they're not designed for sort of exploiting their business logic, either using a human interacting, a human farm, interacting with those APIs or a bot form targeting those APIs, I think. But that's the problem when you have, even when you've secured all your problem, all your APIs, you still have to worry about these of challenges. >>I think that's the big one. I think the business logic one, certainly the Twitter highlights that the Uber example is a good one. That is basically almost the, the backlash of having a simplistic API, which people design to. Right. Yeah. You know, as you point out, Twitter is very simple API, hardened, very strong security, but they're using it to maliciously manipulate what's inside. So in a way that perimeter's dead too. Right. So how do you stop that business logic? What's the, what's the solution what's the customer do about that? Because their goal is to create simple, scalable APIs. >>Yeah. I'll, I'll give you a little bit, and then I think Subaru should maybe go into a little bit of the depth of the problem, but what I think that the answer lies in what Subaru spoke earlier, which is our ML. AI is, is good at profiling plus split between the API users, are these legitimate users, humans versus bots. That's the first split we do. The split second split we do is even when these, these are classified users as bots, we will say there are some good bots that are necessary for the business and bad bots. So we are able to split this across three types of users, legitimate humans, good bots and bad bots. And just to give you an example of good bots is there are in the financial work, there are aggregators that are scraping your data and aggregating for end users to consume, right? Your, your, and other type of financial aggregators FinTech companies like MX. These are good bots and you wanna allow them to, you know, use your APIs, whereas you wanna stop the bad bots from using your APIs super, if you wanna add so, >>So good bots versus bad bots, that's the focus. Go ahead. Weigh in, weigh in on your thought on this >>Really breaks down into three key areas that we talk about here, sequence, right? One is you start by discovering all your APIs. How many APIs do I have in my environment that ly immediately highlight and say, Hey, you have, you know, 10,000 APIs. And that usually is an eye opener to many customers where they go, wow. I thought we had a 10th of that number. That usually is an eyeopener for them to, to at least know where they're at. The second thing is to tell them detection information. So discover, detect, and defend detect will tell them, Hey, your APIs are getting traffic from. So and so it addresses so and so infrastructure. So and so countries and so on that usually is another eye opener for them. They then get to see where their API traffic is coming from. Let's say, if you are a, if you're running a pizza delivery service out of California and your traffic is coming from Eastern Europe to go, wait a minute, nobody's trying, I'm not, I'm not, I don't deliver pizzas in Eastern Europe. Why am I getting traffic from that part of the world? So that sort of traffic immediately comes up and it will tell you that it is hitting your unauthenticated API. It is hitting your API. That has, that is vulnerable to a broken object level, that authorization, vulnerable be and so on. >>Yeah, I think, and >>Then comes the different aspect. Yeah. The different aspect is where you can take action and say, I wanna block certain types of traffic, or I wanna rate limit certain types of traffic. If, if you're seeing spikes there or you could maybe insert header so that it passes on to the end application and the application team can use that bit to essentially take a, a conscious response. And so, so the platform is very flexible in allowing them to take an action that suits their needs. >>Yeah. And I think this is the big trend. This is why I like what you guys are doing. One APIs we're built for the goodness of cloud. They're now the plumbing, you know, anytime you see plumbing involved, connection points, you know, that's pretty important. People are building it out and it has made the cloud what it is. Now, you got a security challenge. You gotta add more intelligence, more smarts to it. This is where I think platform versus tools matter. Can you guys just quickly share your thoughts on that? Cuz a lot of your customers and, and future customers have dealt with the sprawls of all these different tools. Right? I got a tool for this. I got a tool for that, but people are gravitating towards platforms, but how many platforms can a customer have? So again, this brings up the point point around how you guys are engaging with customers. Can you share your thoughts on tooling platforms? Your customers are constantly inundated with the same tsunami. Isn't new thing. Why, what, how should they look at this? >>Yeah, I mean, we don't wanna be, we don't wanna add to that alert fatigue problem that affects much of the cybersecurity industry by generating a whole bunch of alerts and so on. So what we do is we actually integrate very well with S IEM systems or so systems and allow customers to integrate the information that we are detecting or mitigating and feed them onto enterprise systems like a Splunk or a Datadog where they may have sophisticated processes built in to monitor, you know, spikes in anomalous traffic or actions that are taken by sequence. And that can be their dashboard where a whole bunch of alerting and reporting actually happens. So we play in the security ecosystem very well by integrating with other products and integrate very tightly with them, right outta the box. >>Okay. Mia, this is a wrap up now for the showcase. Really appreciate you guys sharing your awesome technology and very relevant product for your customers and where we are right now in this we call Supercloud or now multi-cloud or hybrid world of cloud. Share a, a little bit about the company, how people can get involved in your solution, how they can consume it and things they should know about, about sequence security. >>Yeah, we've been on this journey, an exciting journey it's been for, for about eight years. We have very large fortune 100 global 500 customers that use our platform on a daily basis. We have some amazing logos, both in Europe and, and, and in us customers are, this is basically not the shelf product customers not only use it, but depend on sequence. Several retailers. We are sitting in front of them handling, you know, black Friday, cyber, Monday, Christmas shopping, or any sort of holiday seasonality shopping. And we have handled that the journey starts by, by just simply looking at your API attack surface, just to a discover call with sequence, figure out where your APIs are posted work with you to prioritize how to protect them in a sort of a particular order and take the whole life cycle with sequence. This is, this is an exciting phase exciting sort of stage in the company's life. We just raised a very sort of large CDC round of funding in December from Menlo ventures. And we are excited to see, you know, what's next in, in, in the next, you know, 12 to 18 months. It certainly is the, you know, one of the top two or three items on the CSOs, you know, budget list for next year. So we are extremely busy, but we are looking for, for what the next 12 to 18 months are, are in store for us. >>Well, congratulations to all the success. So will you run the roadmap? You know, APIs are the plumbing. If you will, you know, they connection points, you know, you want to kind of keep 'em simple, as they say, keep the pipes dumb and make the intelligence around it. You seem to see more and more intelligence coming around, not just securing it, but does, where does this go in your mind? Where, where do we go beyond once we secure everything and manage it properly, APRs, aren't going away, they're only gonna get better and smarter. Where's the intelligence coming share a little bit. >>Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, there's not a dull moment in the space. As digital transformation happens to most enterprise systems, many applications are getting transformed. We are seeing an absolute explosion in the volume of APIs and the types of APIs as well. So the applications that were predominantly limited to data centers sort of deployments are now splintered across multiple different cloud environments are completely microservices based APIs, deep inside a Kubernetes cluster, for instance, and so on. So very exciting stuff in terms of proliferation of volume of APIs, as well as types of APIs, there's nature of APIs. And we are building very sophisticated machine learning models that can analyze traffic patterns of such APIs and automatically tell legitimate behavior from anomalous or suspicious behavior and so on. So very exciting sort of breadth of capabilities that we are looking at. >>Okay. I mean, yeah. I'll give you the final words since you're the CEO for the CSOs out there, the chief information security officers and the chief security officers, what do you want to tell them? If you could give them a quick shout out? What would you say to them? >>My shout out is just do an assessment with sequence. I think this is a repeating thing here, but really get to know your APIs first, before you decide what and where to protect them. That's the one simple thing I can mention for thes >>Am. Thank you so much for, for joining me today. Really appreciate it. >>Thank you. >>Thank you. Okay. That is the end of this segment of the eight of his startup showcase. Season two, episode four, I'm John for your host and we're here with sequin security. Thanks for watching.

>>Welcome back everyone to the cubes live coverage here in San Francisco for VMware Explorer. I'm John farer, Dave LAN two days of Wal three days of Wal Walker. Two sets live events got PERA, had Metabo, senior vice president and general manager of cloud management at VMware. I got it. Right. Thanks for coming on the queue. >>You got it right. Good to >>Be here. We're all smiles. Cause we were talking about your history. You once worked at loud cloud and we were reminiscent about how cloud was before cloud was even cloud. Exactly. And how, how hard it was. >>And >>It's still hard. Complexity is a big deal. And one of the segments we want to talk to you about is the announcement around aria and you see cloud manage a big part of this direction to multi-cloud yes. To tame the complexity. And you know, we were quoting Andy Grove on the cube, let chaos rain, and then rain in the chaos. Exactly. Okay. A very famous quote in tech and the theme here is cloud chaos. Yes. And so we're starting to see signs of raining in that chaos or solving complexity. And every major inflection point has this moment where yes, it gets so hard and then it kicks up to the right and grows and link gets solved. So we feel like we're in that moment. >>I couldn't agree more. And in fact, the way I say is our, our, our tagline is we make the complexity of managing cloud invisible so that you can focus on building your business apps. And you're right about the inflection point. Every time a new technology hits, you have some point of adoption and then it becomes insanely successful. And that's when the complexity hits, then you go and tame the complexity till the next technology hits. Right? That's what happens. It's happened with virtualization. Then it has happened with cloud then with containerization and now the next one will hit. And so with aria, we said, we have to fundamentally change the problem, right? We are constantly running a race of TAing, this complexity. So very excited about this announcement with which we're doing with aria. And we said, imagine if I could have a view of my environment and all the dependencies, I don't need to know everything, just the environment and its dependencies. Then I can now start solving problems and answering questions that I was unable to before. And newer technologies can keep coming and piling on, but I'll always be able to answer that, help >>Our audience understand Ari, a great name and, and what's new. Your Heka what's new from, you know, it's not just V V realize with a new name what's what's new specifically. >>Yeah. Please. No. >>Explain some people. Well, >>There's some commentary on snarky comments, but it's a product it's not a rebrand of something >>Else. It's right. It's not explain that. It's not a, yeah. So what we did is let, let me start off. Why, why we started aria? So we said, okay, native public managing environments, native public cloud environments and cloud native applications is a different ballgame, more Emeral workloads, very large scale, highly fragmented data. So we looked at that problem rounds up and said, we need to have a management solution that solves that problem focused on native public cloud and cloud native apps and the core to solving that problem was you can't just solve it for one cloud or you can't solve it for one discipline. When I say discipline, when you think about management, what do you manage? You're managing to optimize cost. You're managing to optimize performance. You're managing to optimize your security and you're managing to speed up the delivery. That is it. And so we said, we'll have a new look to this management. And what we have done with aria is we have introduced a brand new platform, which we call aria hub powered by aria graph, which allows you to deliver this man on this management challenges, by creating a map of your environment, a near real time map of your environment. And then we are able to, once we know what an application looks like and how it maps to the infrastructure, we can go and query other subsystems to tell you, what is the cost of an application? What is the performance of an application? Creating a common understanding >>This now it's a new architecture. >>I just wanted to get that out there. It's federated >>New graph database. >>Yes. It's a new architecture federated, a platform that not only gives you a map of your environment, but it federates into other sources to pull that data together. Right now, one of the data sources that it federates into is of course also we realize, yeah, yeah. Cloud health, >>You plug and >>Cloud observability. You plug everything into it. Yeah. And as part of the announcement, we didn't just announce a platform. We also announced a set of crosscutting solutions cuz we said, okay, what is the power of the platform? The big thing is it removes the swivel share management. It allows you to answer questions you couldn't answer before. And so >>Swivel share meaning going from one app to another one app logging in exactly >>Credentials in credentials. And you don't have a common understanding of app across those. So now you hire people who do integration buses, right? All kinds of cloud. So the three new end to end solutions we are announcing also in, along with the platform, these are brand new. One is something called aria guardrails. So when I have development environments today, for example, my, I do development on public cloud as well as private cloud. I have thousands of accounts, each one with its own security rules, each one with its own policies. After I initially deploy the account, it becomes a nightmare to manage that. So what aria guardrails allows you to do is set up these multi-cloud environments with the right policies. And not only is it about one time provisioning, but it is maintaining them on >>A run basis. And those credentials are also risk. Cuz you have a password on the dark web, that's exposed on one and you've got to change it. And, and there's so many things going on exactly on security, which brings me up to the point of, you know, we were talking, we're gonna see Tom later on security. We heard earlier, why wasn't security in the keynote? Oh, it's table stakes. That's what Z has said. But we're like, okay, I get that. So let's just say that security is table stakes. There's a big trend towards security as a state of something at a, at a given time. And that CSOs and CSOs are going to defensible. Yes. Meaning being defensible all the time. Yes. As an ongoing thing, which is not just running a pen test once a week. Yes. Like multiple testing, real testing. Not simulation. Yes. To be secure. Yes. So it's not about being secure. It's about having security, but defense ability is the action now not yeah. Yeah. >>Can >>You does that, how does that fit into this? Because this seems to like be in this wheelhouse of management. >>No, I think you're bringing a very important point, which is the security as a post. The fact item is no longer. Right? Right. You want to bake in security. This is a shift left of security that we talk about when you're building an application and you are deploying code in your test, you wanna say, Hey, what is the security? Is it secure? Is it meeting my guardrail? Then when you deploy it from an operations perspective, also it is a security concern. It's not just a security team's concern now. So is my configuration right? Is my configuration secure? Has, is it drifting? It's never a snapshot in time. It's constantly, you have to look at it. Is it drifting? And that is exactly what we are doing also with aria. So >>That's part of the solution you're talking about in the guardrails within being >>Able to maintain the secure configuration right now, as I said, there's always a security discipline. Yeah. Which is you are done by security teams, but you also want operations teams and development teams to enforce security in their respective practices. And that's what Ari allows you to do. >>So the question on multi-cloud comes in, okay. So this is all good. By the way, we love that shift left again, very developer. And I would argue actually we are argue on the cube. That dev ops is the development environment for cloud native. So the it operational once called ops is now in dev just saying he is, and then data ops and security ops are now the new it because that's where the hard problems are. So how do you look at the data side of it as well as security in your view of multi-cloud because you know, hybrid cloud, I can see the steady state between, you know, on premises and cloud, if it's operating cloudlike but now you're starting to look at spanning clouds. Yes. Yes. Not full spanning workloads. That's not there yet, but certainly people have multiple clouds. Yeah. But when you data seems to be the first thing spanning not necessarily the app itself, but how do you guys view that multi-cloud aspect of what you're managing? I mean, how you look at that? >>I think there are different angles to it. Right? You can look at it from the data angle and you look at it on how the, how protected a data is for us. When you look at management discipline, it is all from the perspective of configurations. Okay. If I have configured my environment correctly, then you should not be able to do something that destroys or the data. Right. So getting the configuration right. When you're developing that, getting the configuration right. When you're provisioning the app and then getting the configuration, right. Even when you're doing day two and ongoing operations, that is what we bring to the table. And to some extent, that aria visibility, that I was talking about an Ary graph, a near real time view of the configuration state and its dependencies is very critical. So now I can ask questions. Is there a misconfiguration, by the way, the answer is yes, they, yeah. >>That is a lot by the way, too, right? Yeah. >>Which, which exposes me. And then you can say, Hey, is there user activity associated with that misconfigured? Good object. Now suddenly you have go, go to a red alert. So not only something misconfigured, but there is user activity associated with the misconfigured data. You know, this is something that I have. This >>Is where AI sings beautifully because beautifully, once you have the configuration baseline done, yes. It's like securing the S3 bucket, which is like a knee has to be a like brushing your teeth. It's gotta be a habit. Exactly. It's like, you just don't even think about, you just don't leave an S3 bucket. >>It's gotta be simplified because you're, we're asking the devs now to be security pros, correct. Secure the run time, secure the paths, you know, secure the containers. And so they need help. This is not what they wake up in the morning passionate about. Right. >>But that is where the guardrails comes in. Totally. Yeah. So a a developer, why should they care? They should just say, look, I'm developing for the credit card industry. I need a PCI compliant environment. And then let us take care of defining that environment, deploying that environment, managing that environment on an ongoing basis, they should be building code. Yeah. Right. But there is a change also, which is in the past, these were like two different islands and two different views with aria graft. We also have created this unified API that a developer could query or an ops could query to create a common understanding of the environment. So you're not looking at, you know, the elephant won the trunk and the other one, the tail you're looking at it in a common way. >>Can you talk about the collaboration between tan zoo and aria portfolios? Because obviously the VMware customers are investing in tan zoo. A lot of stuff's coming outta the oven. We heard some Dave heard some stuff from Chris Wolf and he's gonna come on tomorrow. And Raghu was hinting at some other stuff. That's not yet public, but you know, this things happening, >>Things happening, lot of >>Things, you know, you know, announcements happened years ago last year. Now some fruit's coming off the tree, this is a hot product aria. It makes a lot of sense for the customers. Where's the cloud native stuff, kicking, connecting in. What's the give us the overview what's connection >>Is lots and lots of connections. So you have a beautiful Kubernetes environment and a cloud native platform. You have accelerated app development. Now you're building more apps, more microservices based apps, more fragmented data, more information. So think of aria as an envelope around all of this. So wherever you are, whether you are building an application, deploying an application, managing an application, retiring an application through that life cycle, we can bring that management. So what we are doing with Tansu is with the platform, develop and platform. Now we can hook in management with a common perspective earlier in the life cycle. I don't have to wait for it to go to production to start saying, is it secure? Is it configured? How is it performing? What is my cost trade off as a developer, I've decided to, to fix a latency issue, I'm gonna add a new region or I'm gonna scale out a particular tier. Do I know how much it'll cost me? Can I give you that right at your fingertips, potentially even within the development platform and within the ID, that's the power, right? So bringing Ary, >>Not a lot of heavy lifting on the develop. So it's pretty much almost like a query to a database or >>As simple API that they can just query as part of their development process. Yeah. So by bringing aria and Tansu and really aria en developing Tansu right. You're able to bring that power >>Developer. I just always smile because you, I remember we, we have a group called the cloud. AATI the early OG found cloud. >>AATI >>The early days of cloud. When we were talking about infrastructure as code yes. Way back when, and finally it's actually happening. So what you're describing is infrastructure's code because now there's more complexity happening under the hard and top and you know, service are being turned on and off automatically. Yes. And sometimes you might not even know what's going on. Exactly. If you have guard rail, >>But you have to discover the state, know something has turned on, understand the implication and then synthesize, synthesize it down to the insight for the user. >>You know, a lot of people have been complaining about other older companies. Like Splunks the world who have great logging technology for gen one cloud, but now these new logging logging becomes a problem. Can you talk about how you guys are handling that? Give confidence or yeah. Explain that there's everything's gonna be logged properly. Yeah. >>So, so really look, there are three disciplines that we have management. Discipl like, ultimately there are thousands of names, but it boils down to you're managing the cost. You're managing the security, you're managing the performance of your applications. That is it. Right. So what we found is when you think of these disciplines as siloed load solutions, you can't ask a simple question as what is my cost performance trade off. You can't ask a simple question as, Hey, I'm improving performance. How, what is the implication of security? And that's when you start building complex solutions that say, okay, let me collect log from here. Let me collect this from here. Then let me correlate and normalize an application definition and tell you something and then put it in a spreadsheet and put it in a spreadsheet finally for manual work. Exactly. So one of the pillars is about managing performance. >>We have very powerful capabilities today in our portfolio. Tansu observability, which is part of aria portfolio. We realize log, which is part of aria portfolio, networks, insights, and operations. So with the common, when you, when you have a common language, we have a common language. We understand each other. Similarly with Ary graph and aria hub, we have creating this common language. So once we create a common language, all the various observability and log solutions have a meaning. They have relevance. And so we are able to take the noise from all these systems and synthesize it down to what we call business insights. And that's what is one of the big announcement as part of aria, awesome take data, which we have lots of and convert it to information. >>Give us the bumper sticker on why VMware. >>Well, I I'll tell you, when you talk about various public clouds, each public cloud has their native solutions. I've got control tower, I've got cloud wash, cloud trail, different solutions, and some of the hyperscalers are also expanding their solutions to other cloud. I think VMware in a way, from a multi-cloud perspective, we are in a wonderfully neutral position. Not only do we have a wealth of technology and assets that we can bring to the game, but we can also do it evenly across all clouds. So, so look at something like cost. Do you trust one of the hyperscalers to tell you that what is the cost comparison between them and another hyperscaler? That is where the VMware value comes in? >>I think people just try to hear what the cost of one cloud. Exactly, exactly. That is often people make money doing that is a job. No, >>No, definitely. Even a single cloud. What is the cost? >>It's a cloud economist out there and we know who he is. Corey Corey, a friend of the cube. He does it for his living. So help people figure out their bill. Exactly. Just on one cloud. >>Exactly. It's one cloud. So being able, we have the unique position where, and the right sets of technologies and experiences to bring that solution to bear across multicloud. Right. Great. >>What's your vision real quick. One minute left. What's your vision for the group? What are you investing in? What's your goals? What are you trying to do? Ask you the products. New. Gonna roll that out. What's what's the plan. I >>Really, again, the biggest one, the, the, the tagline I talked about, right. I, I, I want to, you know, I'm telling customers, managing stuff is boring. Don't waste your time on it. Let us take care of it. Right? So make the cloud complexity invisible so that you can focus on building your applications and everything that we do in the business unit is targeted towards that one goal. It is not about doing more features, more capabilities. It's are you solving customers questions? And we start from question down, >>Be thank you for spending your valuable time here in the cube, explaining the new news. Appreciate it. All right. Get lunch. After the short breaks, stay more with the cube live here in San Francisco for VMware Explorer, 22. I'm John that's. Dave. >>Thank you.

>>Okay, welcome back everyone. This is the Cube's coverage of S reinve rein Mars. I said reinvent all my VES months away. Re Mars machine learning, automation, robotics, and space. I'm John feer, host of the cube, an exciting guest here, bringing on special guest more robot robots are welcome on the cube. We're gonna have that segment here. Mike Dooley co-founder and CEO of Labrador systems. Mike, welcome to the cube. Thanks. >>Coming on. Thank, thank you so much. Yeah. Labrador systems. We're a company is developing a new type of assistive robot for people in the home. And you know, our mission is really to help people live independently. And so we're about to show a robot that's it looks like my, what used to be in a warehouse or other places, but it's being designed to be both robust enough to operate in real world settings, help people that may be aging and using a Walker wheelchair. A cane could have early onset health conditions like Parkinson's and things like that. So >>Let me, let me set this up first, before you get into the, the demo, because I think here at re Mars, one of the things that's coming outta the show besides the cool vibe, right? Is that materials handling? Isn't the only thing you've seen with robotics. Yeah. You're seeing a lot more life industrial impact. And this is an example of one of that, isn't >>It? Yeah. We just actually got an award. It's a Joseph EGL Bergo was the first person to actually put robots in factories and automation. And in doing that, um, he set up grant for robots going beyond that, to help people live in it. So we're the first recipient of that. But yeah, I think that robots, they're not the, what you think about with Rosie yet. We're the wrong way from that, but they're, they can do really meaningful things. >>And before we get the demo, your mission hearing, what you're gonna show here is a lot of hard work and we know how hard it is. What's the mission. What's the vision. >>The mission is to help people live more independently on their own terms. Uh, we're, there's, it's an innate part of the human condition that at some point in our lives, it becomes more difficult to move ourselves or move things around it. And that is a huge impact on our independence. So when we're putting this robot in pilots, we're helping people try to regain degrees of independence, be more active deal with whatever situation they want, but under their terms and have, have control over their life. >>Okay, well, let's get into it. May I offer you a glass of water? Well, you >>Know, I have a robot that just happens to be really good at delivering things, including water. Um, we just actually pulled these out of our refrigerator on our last demo. So why don't we bring over the retriever? And so we're gonna command it to come on in. So this is a Labrador retriever. These robots have been in homes. This robot itself has been in homes, helping people do activities like this. It's able to sort of go from place to place it automatically navigates itself. Uh, just like we've been called a self-driving shelf, um, as an example, but it's meant to be very friendly, can come to a position like this could be by my armchair and it would automatically park. And then I could do something like I can pick up, okay, I want some water and maybe I want to drink it out of a cup and I can do this. And if I have a cough or something else, cough drops. My phone, all sorts of things can be in there. Um, so the purpose of the retriever is really to be this extra pair of hands, to keep things close by and move things. And it can automatically adjust to any hide or position. And if I, even if I block it like a safety, it, it >>Stops. And someone who say disabled or can't move is recovering or has some as aging or whatever the case is. This comes to them. It's autonomous in it sense. Is that that what works or yeah. Is it guided? How does >>It, it works on a series of bus stops. So the in robotics, we call those way points. But when we're talking to people, the bus stops are the places you want it to go. You have a bus stop by the front door, your kitchen sink, the refrigerator, your armchair, the laundry machine, you won't closet it. <laugh>. And with that simple metaphor, we, we train the robot in a couple hours. We create all these routes, just like a subway map. And then the robot is autonomous. So I can hit a button. I can hit my cell phone, or I can say Alexa ass lab, one to come to the kitchen. The robot will autonomously navigate through everything, go around the pets park itself. And it raises and lowers to bring things with and reach. So I'm sitting and it might lower itself down. So I can just comfortably get something at the kitchen. I, it could just go right to the level of the countertop. So it's very easy for someone that has an issue to move things with with limited, uh, challenges. >>And this really illustrates to this show again. Yeah. Talk about the impact here. Cause we're at a historic moment in robotics. >>We are. Yeah. >>What's your reaction to that? Tell your, share your vision >>On that. I've been in robotics for 25 years. Um, and I started, I actually started working actually at Lego and launching Lego Mindstorms, the end of the nineties. So I have like CEO just last night again, they gush over like you did that. Yeah. <laugh> and again, I'm pretty old school. And so we've my career. If I've been working through from toys onto like robotic floor cleaners, the algorithms that are on Roomba today came from the startup that we were all part of. We're, we're moving things to be bigger and bigger and have a bigger >>Impact. What's it feel like? I mean, cuz I mean I can see the experience and by the way, it's hardcore robotics communities out there, but now it's still mainstream. It's opening up the aperture of robotics. Yeah. It's the prime time is right now and it's an inflection point. >>Well, and it's also a point where we desperately need it. So we have incredible work for shortages <laugh> and it's not that we're, these robots are not to take people jobs away it's to do the work that people don't want to do and try to make, you know, free them up for things that are more important. Yeah. In senior care, that's the high touch we want caregivers to be helping people get outta their bed, help them safely move from place to place things that robots aren't at yet. Yeah. But for getting the garbage, for getting a drink or giving the person the freedom to say, do I wanna ask my caregiver or my spouse to do that? Or do I wanna do it myself? And so robots can be incredibly liberating experience if they're, if they're done in the right way and they're done well, >>It's a choice. It actually comes down to choice. I remember this argument way back when, oh, ATM's gonna kill the bank teller. In fact more bank tellers emerged. Right. And so there's choices come out there and, but there's still more advances to do. What is you, what do you see as milestones for the industry as you start to seeing better handling better voice activation cameras on board. I noticed some cameras in there. Yeah. So we're starting to see the, some of the smaller, faster, cheaper >>It's it's especially yeah. Faster. Cheaper is what we're after. So can we redo? So like the gyros that are on this type of robot used to be like in the tens of thousands of dollars 20 or 30 years ago. And, and then when you started seeing Roomba and the floor cleaners come out, those started what happened was basically the gyro on here that what's happening in consumer electronics, the ability for the iPhone to play, you know, the game in turn and, and do portrait and landscape. That actually is what enables all these robots that clean your floors to do very tight angles. What we're doing is this migration of consumer electronics then gets robbed and, and adopted over in that. So it's really about it's I, it's not that you're gonna see things radically change. It's just that you're gonna see more and more applications get more sophisticated and become more affordable. Our target is to bring this for a few hundred dollars a month into people's homes. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and make that economy work for as many people as >>Possible. Yeah. Mike, what a great, great illustration of great point there now on your history looking forward. Okay. Smaller Fest are cheaper. Yeah. You're gonna see a human aspect. So technology's kind of getting out of the way now you got a lot in the cloud, you got machine learning, big thing here. There's a human creative side now gonna be a big part of this. Yeah. Can you talk about like how you see that unfolding? Because again, younger people gonna come in, you got a lot more things pre-built I just saw a swaping on stage saying, oh, we, we write subroutines automatically the machine learning like, oh my God, that's so cool. Like, so more is coming for, to, for builders, right. To build what's the playbook gonna look like? How do you see the human aspect, creative crafting building? >>I, I it's, you know, it's a hard Fu future to predict. I think the issue is that humans are always gonna have to be more clever than the AI <laugh>, you know, I, I can't say that enough is that AI can solve some things and it can get smarter and smarter. You task that over and then let's work on the things that can't do. And I think that's intellectually challenging. Like, and I, and I think we have a long way to go, uh, to sort of keep on pushing that forward. So the whole mission is people get to do more interesting things with their life, more dynamic. Think about what the machines should be working on. Yeah. And then move on to the next things. >>Well, a lot of good healthcare implications. Yeah. Uh, senior living people who are themselves, >>All those are place. Yeah. >>Now that you have, um, this kind of almost a perfect storm of innovation coming, and I just think it's gonna be the beginning. You're gonna see a lot of young people come in. Yeah. And a lot of people in school now going down to the elementary school level yeah. Are really immersed in robotics. They're born with it. And certainly as they get older, what kind of disciplines do you see coming into robot? I used to be pretty clear. Yeah. Right. Nerdy, builder, builder. Now it's like what? I got Mac and rice. My code. >>Yeah. My, my co-founder and CEO has a good example. Anybody we interview, we say we really like it. If you think of yourself as an astronaut, going on to a space mission. And, and it's really appropriate being here at R Mars is that normally the astronaut has one specialty, but they have to know enough of the other skills to be able to help out. In case of an emergency robotics is so complex. There's so there's mechanical, there's electrical, there's software, they're perceptual, there's user interface, all of those Fs together. So when we're trying to do a demo and something goes wrong, I can't say why. I only do mechanical. Yeah. You got it. You really have to have a system. So I think if any system architects, people that if you're gonna, if, if you're gonna be, if mechanical is your thing, you better learn a little bit electrical and software. Yeah. If software is your thing, you better not just write code because you need to understand where you're >>Your back. Well, the old days you have to know for trend to run any instrumentation in the old days. So same kind of vibe. So what does that impact on the teamwork side? Because now I can imagine, okay, you got some general purpose knowledge, so math, science, all the disciplines, but the specialties there, I love that right now. Teamwork. Yeah. Because you, you know, I could be a generalism at some point. There's another component I'm gonna need to call my teammate for. >>Yeah. Yeah. And you have to have, yeah. So it, yeah, we're a small team, so it's a little bit easier right now, but even the technology. So like there's a, what, this is, this runs on Linux and that runs on Ross, which is a robotics operating system. The modules are, are the, are sorry, the modules, I mean redundant there, but the, the part that makes the robot go, okay, I'm gonna command it to go here. It's gonna go around it, see an obstacle. This module kicks in, even the elements become module. So that's part of how teams work is that, and, and Amazon has a rule around that is that everything has to have an API. Yeah. I have to be able to express my work and the way that somebody else can come in and talk to it in a very easy way. So you're also going away from like, sort of like the hidden code that only I touch you can't have ownership of that. You have to let your team understand how it works and let them control it and edit it. Well, >>Super exciting. Dan, first of all, great to bring robots on the cube set. Thanks to your team here. Doing that. Yeah. Um, talk about the company. Um, put a plug in, what are you guys doing? Sure. Raising money, getting more staff, more sales. We're give, give a commercial. >>Yeah. So we, we closed the seed round. So we've been around it's actually five years next month. Um, did pre-seed and then we closed the seed round that we announced back at CS. So we debuted the retriever for the first time we had it under wraps. We had it in people's homes for a year before we did that. Um, I, Amazon was one of our early investors and they actually co-led on this last round, along with our friends at iRobot. So yeah. Uh, so we've raised that we're right in the next phase of deploying this, especially going more into senior living now that that's opening up with COVID coming down and looking at helping these workforce issues where there's that crisis. So we'll be raising later this year. So we're starting to sort of do the preview for series a. We're starting to take those pre-orders for robots and for Lois. And then our goal is we're and we're actually already at the factory. So we've been converting this, these there's a version of this robot underway right now at the factory that will probably have engineering units at the end of this year. Yeah. Goal is for, uh, full production with all the supply chain issues for second half of, of next >>Year. Yeah. Well, congratulations. It's a great product. And I gotta ask you what's on the roadmap, how you see this product unfolding. What's the wishlist look like if you had all the dough in the world, what would you do next? What would you be putting on there? Sure. If you had the magic wand what's happening, >>It's a couple variables. I think it's scale. So it's driving the, this whole thing is designed to go down in cost, which improves basically accessibility. More people can afford it. The health system, Medicare, those sorts of folks. See it one. So basically get us into reduction and get us into volume is one part, I think the other ones is adding layers. I, what we, when we see our presentation and the speech we're doing tomorrow, we see this as a force multiplier for a lot of other things in healthcare. So if I bring the blood pressure cuff, like we have on the retrieval, I can be a physical reminder to take your medication, to take the, my, my readings, or we are just con having a conversation with some of our friends of Amazon is bringing an echo show to you when you want to have a conversation and take it away. >>When you don't think about that metaphor of how do I wanna live my life and what do I have control over? And then on top of it, the sensors on the robot, they're pretty sophisticated. So in my case, my mom is still around she's 91, but now in a hospital beded wheelchair could, we've seen her walking differently early, early on, and using things like Intel, real sense and, and computer vision and AI to detect things and just say to her, don't even tell anybody else, we're noticing this. Do you wanna share this with your doctor? Yeah. That's the world. I think that what we're trying to do is lay this out as version 1.0, so that when folks like us are around, it'll something like decades from now, life is so much more better for the options and choices we have. It's >>Really interesting. You know, I liked, um, kind of the theme here. There's a lot of day to day problems that people like to solve. And then there's like the new industrial problems that are emerging that are opportunities. And then there's the save the world kind of vibe. <laugh>, there's help people make things positive, right. You know, solve the climate problems, help people. And so we're kind of at this new era and it's beyond just like sustainability and, you know, bias. That's all gotta get done a new tipping point around the human aspect of >>Things. And you do it economically. I think sometimes you think that, okay, well, you're just doing this cuz you're, you're socially motivated and doesn't, you don't care how many you sell it to just so you can accomplish it. It's their link. The, the cheaper that we can make this, the more people you can impact. I think you're talking about the kids today is the work we did at Lego. In the end of the nineties, you made a, a robotics kit for 200 bucks and millions of kids. Yeah. Did that. And >>Grape pie. I mean, you had accessories to it. Make a developer friendly. >>Yeah, no, exactly. And we're getting all those requests. So I think that's the thing is like, get a new platform, learn what it's like to have this sort of capability and then let the market drive. It, let the people sort of the folks who are gonna be using it that are in a wheelchair, are dealing with Parkinson's or Ms, or other issues. What can we add to that ecosystem? So you it's, it's all about being very human centric in that. Yeah. And making the other parts of the economy make it work for them, make it so that the health system, they get an ROI on this so that, Hey, this is a good thing to put into people's homes. >>And well, I think you have the nice, attractive value proposition to investors. Obviously robotics is super cool and really relevant. Cool, cool. And relevant to me always is nice to have that. So check that, then you got the economics on price, pressure, prove the price down lower. Yeah. Open up the Tams of the market. Right. Make it more viable economically. >>Yeah, definitely. And then, and what we're having, what's driving us that wasn't around seven when we started this about four and a half years ago. Uh, my joke and I don't mean to offend them, but after doing pitching the vision of this in six months, don't be, >>Don't be afraid. We're do we, >>My, my joke. And I'm sort to see more bold about is that VCs don't think they're gonna get old. They're just gonna get rich. And so the idea is that they didn't see themselves in this position and we not Gloo and doom, you can work out, you can be active, but we're living older, longer. We are it's. My mom is born in the depression. She's been in a wheelchair for five years. She might be around for a good, another 10 or 15. And that's wonderful for her, but her need for care is really high. >>Yeah. And the pressure on the family too, there's always, there's always collateral damage on all these impacts. >>There's 53 million unpaid family caregivers in the us. Yeah. Just in the time that we've grown, been doing this, it's grown 4% a year and it's a complicated thing. And it's, it's not just the pressure on you to help your mom or dad or whoever. It's the frustration on their face when they have to always ask for that help. So it's, it's twofold. It's give them some freedom back so they can make a choice. Like my classic example is my mom wants tea. My dad's trying to watch the game. He, she asks for it. It's not hot enough. Sends it back. And that's a currency. Yeah, yeah. That she's losing and, and it's frustration as opposed to give her a choice to say, I'm gonna do this on my own. And I that's just, >>You wanna bring the computer out, do a FaceTime with the family, send it back. Or you mentioned the Alexa there's so many use cases. Oh >>No. We talked about, uh, we talked about putting like a, a device with a CA with a screen on it so she could chat and see pictures. And it says, I don't want to have this in my bedroom. That's my private space. Yeah. But if we could have the robot, bring it in when it's appropriate and take it on go the retriever that's that's >>The whole go fetch what I need right now. That's and then go lie down. Yeah. >>That's what I, I called >>Labrador. Doesn't lie down >>Actually. But well, it lowers down, it lowers down about 25 inches. That's about lying. >>Down's super exciting. And congratulations. I know, um, how passionate you are. It's obvious. Yeah. And being in the business so long, so many accomplishment you had. Yeah. But now is a whole new Dawn. A new era here. >>Yeah. Oh yeah. No, I, we just, it was real. It was on impromptu. It wasn't scheduled. There's a, a post circle on LinkedIn where all the robots got together. <laugh> you know, and they were seeing to hang out. No, and you're seeing stuff that wasn't possible. You look at this and you go, well, what's the big thing. It's a box on wheels. It's like, it wasn't possible to navigate something around the complexity of a home 10 years ago for the price we're doing. Yeah. It wasn't possible to wa have things that walk or spot that can go through construction sites. I, I think people don't realize it's it. It really is changing. And then we're, I think every five years you're gonna be seeing this more bold deployment of these things hitting our lives. It's >>It's super cool. And that's why this show's so popular. It's not obvious to mainstream, but you look at the confluence of all those forces coming together. Yeah. It's just a wonderful thing. Thanks for coming on. Appreciate >>It really, really appreciate you for this >>Time. Great success. Great demo. Mike, do cofounder, the CEO of Labrador systems. Check him out. They have the retriever, uh, future of robotics here. It's all impact all life on the planet. And more space. Two is to keep coverage here at re Mars, stay tuned for more live coverage. After this short break.

>>As we've been reporting, the pandemic has called CSOs to really shift their spending priorities towards securing remote workers. Almost overnight. Zero trust has gone from buzzword to mandate. What's more as we wrote in our recent cybersecurity breaking analysis, not only Maseca pro secured increasingly distributed workforce, but now they have to be wary of software updates in the digital supply chain, including the very patches designed to protect them against cyber attacks. Hello everyone. And welcome to this Q conversation. My name is Dave Vellante and I'm pleased to welcome Derek manky. Who's chief security insights, and global threat alliances for four guard labs with fresh data from its global threat landscape report. Derek. Welcome. Great to see you. >>Thanks so much for, for the invitation to speak. It's always a pleasure. Multicover yeah, >>You're welcome. So first I wonder if you could explain for the audience, what is for guard labs and what's its relationship to fortunate? >>Right. So 40 grand labs is, is our global sockets, our global threat intelligence operation center. It never sleeps, and this is the beat. Um, you know, it's, it's been here since inception at port in it. So it's it's 20, 21 years in the making, since Fortinet was founded, uh, we have built this in-house, uh, so we don't go yum technology. We built everything from the ground up, including creating our own training programs for our, our analysts. We're following malware, following exploits. We even have a unique program that I created back in 2006 to ethical hacking program. And it's a zero-day research. So we try to meet the hackers, the bad guys to their game. And we of course do that responsibly to work with vendors, to close schools and create virtual patches. Um, and, but, you know, so it's, it's everything from, uh, customer protection first and foremost, to following, uh, the threat landscape and cyber. It's very important to understand who they are, what they're doing, who they're, uh, what they're targeting, what tools are they using? >>Yeah, that's great. Some serious DNA and skills in that group. And it's, it's critical because like you said, you can, you can minimize the spread of those malware very, very quickly. So what, what now you have, uh, the global threat landscape report. We're going to talk about that, but what exactly is that? >>Right? So this a global threat landscape report, it's a summary of, uh, all, all the data that we collect over a period of time. So we released this, that biannually two times a year. Um, cyber crime is changing very fast, as you can imagine. So, uh, while we do release security blogs, and, uh, what we call threat signals for breaking security events, we have a lot of other vehicles to release threat intelligence, but this threat landscape report is truly global. It looks at all of our global data. So we have over 5 million censorship worldwide in 40 guard labs, we're processing. I know it seems like a very large amount, but North of a hundred billion, uh, threat events in just one day. And we have to take the task of taking all of that data and put that onto scale for half a year and compile that into something, um, that is, uh, the, you know, that that's digestible. That's a, a very tough task, as you can imagine, so that, you know, we have to work with a huge technologies back to machine learning and artificial intelligence automation. And of course our analyst view to do that. >>Yeah. So this year, of course, there's like the every year is a battle, but this year was an extra battle. Can you explain what you saw in terms of the hacker dynamics over the past? Let's say 12 months. I know you do this twice a year, but what trends did you see evolving throughout the year and what have you seen with the way that attackers have exploited this expanded attack surface outside of corporate network? >>Yeah, it was quite interesting last year. It certainly was not normal. Like we all say, um, and that was no exception for cybersecurity. You know, if we look at cyber criminals and how they pivoted and adapted to the scrap threat landscape, cyber cyber criminals are always trying to take advantage of the weakest link of the chain. They're trying to always prey off here and ride waves of global trends and themes. We've seen this before in, uh, natural disasters as an example, you know, um, trying to do charity kind of scams and campaigns. And they're usually limited to a region where that incident happened and they usually live about two to three weeks, maybe a month at the most. And then they'll move on to the next to the next trip. That's braking, of course, because COVID is so global and dominant. Um, we saw attacks coming in from, uh, well over 40 different languages as an example, um, in regions all across the world that wasn't lasting two to three weeks and it lasted for the better part of a year. >>And of course, what they're, they're using this as a vehicle, right? Not preying on the fear. They're doing everything from initial lockdown, uh, fishing. We were as COVID-19 movers to, um, uh, lay off notices then to phase one, reopenings all the way up to fast forward to where we are today with vaccine rollover development. So there's always that new flavor and theme that they were rolling out, but because it was so successful for them, they were able to, they didn't have to innovate too much, right. They didn't have to expand and shifted to new to new trends. And themes are really developed on new rats families as an example, or a new sophisticated malware. That was the first half of the year and the second half of the year. Um, of course people started to experience COVID fatigue, right? Um, people started to become, we did a lot of education around this. >>People started to become more aware of this threat. And so, um, cyber criminals have started to, um, as we expected, started to become more sophisticated with their attacks. We saw an expansion in different ransomware families. We saw more of a shift of focus on, on, um, uh, you know, targeting the digital supply chain as an example. And so that, that was, that was really towards Q4. Uh, so it, it was a long lived lead year with success on the Google themes, um, targeting healthcare as an example, a lot of, um, a lot of the organizations that were, you know, really in a vulnerable position, I would say >>So, okay. I want to clarify something because my assumption was that they actually did really increase the sophistication, but it sounds like that was kind of a first half trends. Not only did they have to adapt and not have to, but they adapt it to these new vulnerabilities. Uh, my sense was that when you talk about the digital supply chain, that that was a fairly sophisticated attack. Am I, am I getting that right? That they did their sort of their, their, their increased sophistication in the first half, and then they sort of deployed it, did it, uh, w what actually happened there from your data? >>Well, if we look at, so generally there's two types of attacks that we look at, we look at the, uh, the premeditated sophisticated attacks that can have, um, you know, a lot of ramp up work on their end, a lot of time developing the, the, the, the weaponization phase. So developing, uh, the exploits of the sophisticated malware that they're gonna use for the campaign reconnaissance, understanding the targets, where platforms are developed, um, the blueprinting that DNA of, of, of the supply chain, those take time. Um, in fact years, even if we look back to, um, uh, 10 plus years ago with the Stuxnet attacks, as an example that was on, uh, nuclear centrifuges, um, and that, that had four different zero-day weapons at the time. That was very sophisticated, that took over two years to develop as an example. So some of these can take years of time to develop, but they're, they're, uh, very specific in terms of the targets are going to go after obviously the ROI from their end. >>Uh, the other type of attack that we see is as ongoing, um, these broad, wide sweeping attacks, and the reality for those ones is they don't unfortunately need to be too sophisticated. And those ones were the ones I was talking about that were really just playing on the cool, the deem, and they still do today with the vaccine road and development. Uh, but, but it's really because they're just playing on, on, um, you know, social engineering, um, using, uh, topical themes. And in fact, the weapons they're using these vulnerabilities are from our research data. And this was highlighted actually the first pop landscape before last year, uh, on average were two to three years old. So we're not talking about fresh vulnerabilities. You've got to patch right away. I mean, these are things that should have been patched two years ago, but they're still unfortunately having success with that. >>So you mentioned stuck next Stuxnet as the former sort of example, of one of the types of attacks that you see. And I always felt like that was a watershed moment. One of the most sophisticated, if not the most sophisticated attack that we'd ever seen. When I talk to CSOs about the recent government hack, they, they, they suggest I infer maybe they don't suggest it. I infer that it was of similar sophistication. It was maybe thousands of people working on this for years and years and years. Is that, is that accurate or not necessarily? >>Yeah, there's definitely a, there's definitely some comparisons there. Uh, you know, one of the largest things is, uh, both attacks used digital circuits certificate personation, so they're digitally signed. So, you know, of course that whole technology using cryptography is designed by design, uh, to say that, you know, this piece of software installed in your system, hassles certificate is coming from the source. It's legitimate. Of course, if that's compromised, that's all out of the window. And, um, yeah, this is what we saw in both attacks. In fact, you know, stocks in that they also had digitally designed, uh, certificates that were compromised. So when it gets to that level of students or, uh, sophistication, that means definitely that there's a target that there has been usually months of, of, uh, homework done by cyber criminals, for reconnaissance to be able to weaponize that. >>W w what did you see with respect to ransomware? What were the trends there over the past 12 months? I've heard some data and it's pretty scary, but what did you see? >>Yeah, so we're actually, ransomware is always the thorn in our side, and it's going to continue to be so, um, you know, in fact, uh, ransomware is not a new itself. It was actually first created in 1989, and they demanded ransom payments through snail mail. This was to appeal a box, obviously that, that, that didn't take off. Wasn't a successful on the internet was porn at the time. But if you look at it now, of course, over the last 10 years, really, that's where it ran. The ransomware model has been, uh, you know, lucrative, right? I mean, it's been, um, using, uh, by force encrypting data on systems, so that users had to, if they were forced to pay the ransom because they wanted access to their data back data was the target currency for ransomware. That's shifted now. And that's actually been a big pivotal over the last year or so, because again, before it was this let's cast a wide net, in fact, as many people as we can random, um, and try to see if we can hold some of their data for ransom. >>Some people that data may be valuable, it may not be valuable. Um, and that model still exists. Uh, and we see that, but really the big shift that we saw last year and the threat landscape before it was a shift to targeted rats. So again, the sophistication is starting to rise because they're not just going out to random data. They're going out to data that they know is valuable to large organizations, and they're taking that a step further now. So there's various ransomware families. We saw that have now reverted to extortion and blackmail, right? So they're taking that data, encrypting it and saying, unless you pay us as large sum of money, we're going to release this to the public or sell it to a buyer on the dark web. And of course you can imagine the amount of, um, you know, damages that can happen from that. The other thing we're seeing is, is a target of going to revenue services, right? So if they can cripple networks, it's essentially a denial of service. They know that the company is going to be bleeding, you know, X, millions of dollars a day, so they can demand Y million dollars of ransom payments, and that's effectively what's happening. So it's, again, becoming more targeted, uh, and more sophisticated. And unfortunately the ransom is going up. >>So they go to where the money is. And of course your job is to, it's a lower the ROI for them, a constant challenge. Um, we talked about some of the attack vectors, uh, that you saw this year that, that cyber criminals are targeting. I wonder if, if, you know, given the work from home, if things like IOT devices and cameras and, you know, thermostats, uh, with 75% of the work force at home, is this infrastructure more vulnerable? I guess, of course it is. But what did you see there in terms of attacks on those devices? >>Yeah, so, uh, um, uh, you know, unfortunately the attack surface as we call it, uh, so the amount of target points is expanding. It's not shifting, it's expanding. We still see, um, I saw, I mentioned earlier vulnerabilities from two years ago that are being used in some cases, you know, over the holidays where e-commerce means we saw e-commerce heavily under attack in e-commerce has spikes since last summer, right. It's been a huge amount of traffic increase everybody's shopping from home. And, uh, those vulnerabilities going after a shopping cart, plugins, as an example, are five to six years old. So we still have this theme of old vulnerabilities are still new in a sense being attacked, but we're also now seeing this complication of, yeah, as you said, IOT, uh, B roll out everywhere, the really quick shift to work from home. Uh, we really have to treat this as if you guys, as the, uh, distributed branch model for enterprise, right. >>And it's really now the secure branch. How do we take, um, um, you know, any of these devices on, on those networks and secure them, uh, because yeah, if you look at the, what we highlighted in our landscape report and the top 10 attacks that we're seeing, so hacking attacks hacking in tabs, this is who our IPS triggers. You know, we're seeing attempts to go after IOT devices. Uh, right now they're mostly, uh, favoring, uh, well in terms of targets, um, consumer grade routers. Uh, but they're also looking at, um, uh, DVR devices as an example for, uh, you know, home entertainment systems, uh, network attached storage as well, and IP security cameras, um, some of the newer devices, uh, what, the quote unquote smart devices that are now on, you know, virtual assistance and home networks. Uh, we actually released a predictions piece at the end of last year as well. So this is what we call the new intelligent edge. And that's what I think is we're really going to see this year in terms of what's ahead. Um, cause we always have to look ahead and prepare for that. But yeah, right now, unfortunately, the story is, all of this is still happening. IOT is being targeted. Of course they're being targeted because they're easy targets. Um, it's like for cybercriminals, it's like shooting fish in a barrel. There's not just one, but there's multiple vulnerabilities, security holes associated with these devices, easy entry points into networks. >>I mean, it's, um, I mean, attackers they're, they're highly capable. They're organized, they're well-funded they move fast, they're they're agile, uh, and they follow the money. As we were saying, uh, you, you mentioned, you know, co vaccines and, you know, big pharma healthcare, uh, where >>Did you see advanced, persistent >>Threat groups really targeting? Were there any patterns that emerged in terms of other industry types or organizations being targeted? >>Yeah. So just to be clear again, when we talk about AP teams, um, uh, advanced, specific correct group, the groups themselves they're targeting, these are usually the more sophisticated groups, of course. So going back to that theme, these are usually the target, the, um, the premeditated targeted attacks usually points to nation state. Um, sometimes of course there's overlap. They can be affiliated with cyber crime, cyber crime, uh, uh, groups are typically, um, looking at some other targets for ROI, uh, bio there's there's a blend, right? So as an example, if we're looking at the, uh, apt groups I had last year, absolutely. Number one I would say would be healthcare. Healthcare was one of those, and it's, it's, it's, uh, you know, very unfortunate, but obviously with the shift that was happening at a pop up medical facilities, there's a big, a rush to change networks, uh, for a good cause of course, but with that game, um, you know, uh, security holes and concerns the targets and, and that's what we saw IPT groups targeting was going after those and, and ransomware and the cyber crime shrine followed as well. Right? Because if you can follow, uh, those critical networks and crippled them on from cybercriminals point of view, you can, you can expect them to pay the ransom because they think that they need to buy in order to, um, get those systems back online. Uh, in fact, last year or two, unfortunately we saw the first, um, uh, death that was caused because of a denial of service attack in healthcare, right. Facilities were weren't available because of the cyber attack. Patients had to be diverted and didn't make it on the way. >>All right. Jericho, sufficiently bummed out. So maybe in the time remaining, we can talk about remediation strategies. You know, we know there's no silver bullet in security. Uh, but what approaches are you recommending for organizations? How are you consulting with folks? >>Sure. Yeah. So a couple of things, um, good news is there's a lot that we can do about this, right? And, um, and, and basic measures go a long way. So a couple of things just to get out of the way I call it housekeeping, cyber hygiene, but it's always worth reminding. So when we talk about keeping security patches up to date, we always have to talk about that because that is reality as et cetera, these, these vulnerabilities that are still being successful are five to six years old in some cases, the majority two years old. Um, so being able to do that, manage that from an organization's point of view, really treat the new work from home. I don't like to call it a work from home. So the reality is it's work from anywhere a lot of the times for some people. So really treat that as, as the, um, as a secure branch, uh, methodology, doing things like segmentations on network, secure wifi access, multi-factor authentication is a huge muscle, right? >>So using multi-factor authentication because passwords are dead, um, using things like, uh, XDR. So Xers is a combination of detection and response for end points. This is a mass centralized management thing, right? So, uh, endpoint detection and response, as an example, those are all, uh, you know, good security things. So of course having security inspection, that that's what we do. So good threat intelligence baked into your security solution. That's supported by labs angles. So, uh, that's, uh, you know, uh, antivirus, intrusion prevention, web filtering, sandbox, and so forth, but then it gets that that's the security stack beyond that it gets into the end user, right? Everybody has a responsibility. This is that supply chain. We talked about. The supply chain is, is, is a target for attackers attackers have their own supply chain as well. And we're also part of that supply chain, right? The end users where we're constantly fished for social engineering. So using phishing campaigns against employees to better do training and awareness is always recommended to, um, so that's what we can do, obviously that's, what's recommended to secure, uh, via the endpoints in the secure branch there's things we're also doing in the industry, um, to fight back against that with prime as well. >>Well, I, I want to actually talk about that and talk about ecosystems and collaboration, because while you have competitors, you all want the same thing. You, SecOps teams are like superheroes in my book. I mean, they're trying to save the world from the bad guys. And I remember I was talking to Robert Gates on the cube a couple of years ago, a former defense secretary. And I said, yeah, but don't, we have like the best security people and can't we go on the offensive and weaponize that ourselves. Of course, there's examples of that. Us. Government's pretty good at it, even though they won't admit it. But his answer to me was, yeah, we gotta be careful because we have a lot more to lose than many countries. So I thought that was pretty interesting, but how do you collaborate with whether it's the U S government or other governments or other other competitors even, or your ecosystem? Maybe you could talk about that a little bit. >>Yeah. Th th this is what, this is what makes me tick. I love working with industry. I've actually built programs for 15 years of collaboration in the industry. Um, so, you know, we, we need, I always say we can't win this war alone. You actually hit on this point earlier, you talked about following and trying to disrupt the ROI of cybercriminals. Absolutely. That is our target, right. We're always looking at how we can disrupt their business model. Uh, and, and in order, there's obviously a lot of different ways to do that, right? So a couple of things we do is resiliency. That's what we just talked about increasing the security stack so that they go knocking on someone else's door. But beyond that, uh, it comes down to private, private sector collaborations. So, uh, we, we, uh, co-founder of the cyber threat Alliance in 2014 as an example, this was our fierce competitors coming in to work with us to share intelligence, because like you said, um, competitors in the space, but we need to work together to do the better fight. >>And so this is a Venn diagram. What's compared notes, let's team up, uh, when there's a breaking attack and make sure that we have the intelligence so that we can still remain competitive on the technology stack to gradation the solutions themselves. Uh, but let's, let's level the playing field here because cybercriminals moved out, uh, you know, um, uh, that, that there's no borders and they move with great agility. So, uh, that's one thing we do in the private private sector. Uh, there's also, uh, public private sector relationships, right? So we're working with Interpol as an example, Interfor project gateway, and that's when we find attribution. So it's not just the, what are these people doing like infrastructure, but who, who are they, where are they operating? What, what events tools are they creating? We've actually worked on cases that are led down to, um, uh, warrants and arrests, you know, and in some cases, one case with a $60 million business email compromise fraud scam, the great news is if you look at the industry as a whole, uh, over the last three to four months has been for take downs, a motet net Walker, uh, um, there's also IE Gregor, uh, recently as well too. >>And, and Ian Gregor they're actually going in and arresting the affiliates. So not just the CEO or the King, kind of these organizations, but the people who are distributing the ransomware themselves. And that was a unprecedented step, really important. So you really start to paint a picture of this, again, supply chain, this ecosystem of cyber criminals and how we can hit them, where it hurts on all angles. I've most recently, um, I've been heavily involved with the world economic forum. Uh, so I'm, co-author of a report from last year of the partnership on cyber crime. And, uh, this is really not just the pro uh, private, private sector, but the private and public sector working together. We know a lot about cybercriminals. We can't arrest them. Uh, we can't take servers offline from the data centers, but working together, we can have that whole, you know, that holistic effect. >>Great. Thank you for that, Derek. What if people want, want to go deeper? Uh, I know you guys mentioned that you do blogs, but are there other resources that, that they can tap? Yeah, absolutely. So, >>Uh, everything you can see is on our threat research blog on, uh, so 40 net blog, it's under expired research. We also put out, uh, playbooks, w we're doing blah, this is more for the, um, the heroes as he called them the security operation centers. Uh, we're doing playbooks on the aggressors. And so this is a playbook on the offense, on the offense. What are they up to? How are they doing that? That's on 40 guard.com. Uh, we also release, uh, threat signals there. So, um, we typically release, uh, about 50 of those a year, and those are all, um, our, our insights and views into specific attacks that are now >>Well, Derek Mackie, thanks so much for joining us today. And thanks for the work that you and your teams do. Very important. >>Thanks. It's yeah, it's a pleasure. And, uh, rest assured we will still be there 24 seven, three 65. >>Good to know. Good to know. And thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Volante for the cube. We'll see you next time.

>>As we've been reporting, the pandemic has called CSOs to really shift their spending priorities towards securing remote workers. Almost overnight. Zero trust has gone from buzzword to mandate. What's more as we wrote in our recent cybersecurity breaking analysis, not only Maseca pro secured increasingly distributed workforce, but now they have to be wary of software updates in the digital supply chain, including the very patches designed to protect them against cyber attacks. Hello everyone. And welcome to this Q conversation. My name is Dave Vellante and I'm pleased to welcome Derek manky. Who's chief security insights, and global threat alliances for four guard labs with fresh data from its global threat landscape report. Derek. Welcome. Great to see you. >>Thanks so much for, for the invitation to speak. It's always a pleasure. Multicover yeah, >>You're welcome. So first I wonder if you could explain for the audience, what is for guard labs and what's its relationship to fortunate? >>Right. So 40 grand labs is, is our global sockets, our global threat intelligence operation center. It never sleeps, and this is the beat. Um, you know, it's, it's been here since inception at port in it. So it's it's 20, 21 years in the making, since Fortinet was founded, uh, we have built this in-house, uh, so we don't go yum technology. We built everything from the ground up, including creating our own training programs for our, our analysts. We're following malware, following exploits. We even have a unique program that I created back in 2006 to ethical hacking program. And it's a zero-day research. So we try to meet the hackers, the bad guys to their game. And we of course do that responsibly to work with vendors, to close schools and create virtual patches. Um, and, but, you know, so it's, it's everything from, uh, customer protection first and foremost, to following, uh, the threat landscape and cyber. It's very important to understand who they are, what they're doing, who they're, uh, what they're targeting, what tools are they using? >>Yeah, that's great. Some serious DNA and skills in that group. And it's, it's critical because like you said, you can, you can minimize the spread of those malware very, very quickly. So what, what now you have, uh, the global threat landscape report. We're going to talk about that, but what exactly is that? >>Right? So this a global threat landscape report, it's a summary of, uh, all, all the data that we collect over a period of time. So we released this, that biannually two times a year. Um, cyber crime is changing very fast, as you can imagine. So, uh, while we do release security blogs, and, uh, what we call threat signals for breaking security events, we have a lot of other vehicles to release threat intelligence, but this threat landscape report is truly global. It looks at all of our global data. So we have over 5 million censorship worldwide in 40 guard labs, we're processing. I know it seems like a very large amount, but North of a hundred billion, uh, threat events in just one day. And we have to take the task of taking all of that data and put that onto scale for half a year and compile that into something, um, that is, uh, the, you know, that that's digestible. That's a, a very tough task, as you can imagine, so that, you know, we have to work with a huge technologies back to machine learning and artificial intelligence automation. And of course our analyst view to do that. >>Yeah. So this year, of course, there's like the every year is a battle, but this year was an extra battle. Can you explain what you saw in terms of the hacker dynamics over the past? Let's say 12 months. I know you do this twice a year, but what trends did you see evolving throughout the year and what have you seen with the way that attackers have exploited this expanded attack surface outside of corporate network? >>Yeah, it was quite interesting last year. It certainly was not normal. Like we all say, um, and that was no exception for cybersecurity. You know, if we look at cyber criminals and how they pivoted and adapted to the scrap threat landscape, cyber cyber criminals are always trying to take advantage of the weakest link of the chain. They're trying to always prey off here and ride waves of global trends and themes. We've seen this before in, uh, natural disasters as an example, you know, um, trying to do charity kind of scams and campaigns. And they're usually limited to a region where that incident happened and they usually live about two to three weeks, maybe a month at the most. And then they'll move on to the next to the next trip. That's braking, of course, because COVID is so global and dominant. Um, we saw attacks coming in from, uh, well over 40 different languages as an example, um, in regions all across the world that wasn't lasting two to three weeks and it lasted for the better part of a year. >>And of course, what they're, they're using this as a vehicle, right? Not preying on the fear. They're doing everything from initial lockdown, uh, fishing. We were as COVID-19 movers to, um, uh, lay off notices then to phase one, reopenings all the way up to fast forward to where we are today with vaccine rollover development. So there's always that new flavor and theme that they were rolling out, but because it was so successful for them, they were able to, they didn't have to innovate too much, right. They didn't have to expand and shifted to new to new trends. And themes are really developed on new rats families as an example, or a new sophisticated malware. That was the first half of the year and the second half of the year. Um, of course people started to experience COVID fatigue, right? Um, people started to become, we did a lot of education around this. >>People started to become more aware of this threat. And so, um, cyber criminals have started to, um, as we expected, started to become more sophisticated with their attacks. We saw an expansion in different ransomware families. We saw more of a shift of focus on, on, um, uh, you know, targeting the digital supply chain as an example. And so that, that was, that was really towards Q4. Uh, so it, it was a long lived lead year with success on the Google themes, um, targeting healthcare as an example, a lot of, um, a lot of the organizations that were, you know, really in a vulnerable position, I would say >>So, okay. I want to clarify something because my assumption was that they actually did really increase the sophistication, but it sounds like that was kind of a first half trends. Not only did they have to adapt and not have to, but they adapt it to these new vulnerabilities. Uh, my sense was that when you talk about the digital supply chain, that that was a fairly sophisticated attack. Am I, am I getting that right? That they did their sort of their, their, their increased sophistication in the first half, and then they sort of deployed it, did it, uh, w what actually happened there from your data? >>Well, if we look at, so generally there's two types of attacks that we look at, we look at the, uh, the premeditated sophisticated attacks that can have, um, you know, a lot of ramp up work on their end, a lot of time developing the, the, the, the weaponization phase. So developing, uh, the exploits of the sophisticated malware that they're gonna use for the campaign reconnaissance, understanding the targets, where platforms are developed, um, the blueprinting that DNA of, of, of the supply chain, those take time. Um, in fact years, even if we look back to, um, uh, 10 plus years ago with the Stuxnet attacks, as an example that was on, uh, nuclear centrifuges, um, and that, that had four different zero-day weapons at the time. That was very sophisticated, that took over two years to develop as an example. So some of these can take years of time to develop, but they're, they're, uh, very specific in terms of the targets are going to go after obviously the ROI from their end. >>Uh, the other type of attack that we see is as ongoing, um, these broad, wide sweeping attacks, and the reality for those ones is they don't unfortunately need to be too sophisticated. And those ones were the ones I was talking about that were really just playing on the cool, the deem, and they still do today with the vaccine road and development. Uh, but, but it's really because they're just playing on, on, um, you know, social engineering, um, using, uh, topical themes. And in fact, the weapons they're using these vulnerabilities are from our research data. And this was highlighted actually the first pop landscape before last year, uh, on average were two to three years old. So we're not talking about fresh vulnerabilities. You've got to patch right away. I mean, these are things that should have been patched two years ago, but they're still unfortunately having success with that. >>So you mentioned stuck next Stuxnet as the former sort of example, of one of the types of attacks that you see. And I always felt like that was a watershed moment. One of the most sophisticated, if not the most sophisticated attack that we'd ever seen. When I talk to CSOs about the recent government hack, they, they, they suggest I infer maybe they don't suggest it. I infer that it was of similar sophistication. It was maybe thousands of people working on this for years and years and years. Is that, is that accurate or not necessarily? >>Yeah, there's definitely a, there's definitely some comparisons there. Uh, you know, one of the largest things is, uh, both attacks used digital circuits certificate personation, so they're digitally signed. So, you know, of course that whole technology using cryptography is designed by design, uh, to say that, you know, this piece of software installed in your system, hassles certificate is coming from the source. It's legitimate. Of course, if that's compromised, that's all out of the window. And, um, yeah, this is what we saw in both attacks. In fact, you know, stocks in that they also had digitally designed, uh, certificates that were compromised. So when it gets to that level of students or, uh, sophistication, that means definitely that there's a target that there has been usually months of, of, uh, homework done by cyber criminals, for reconnaissance to be able to weaponize that. >>W w what did you see with respect to ransomware? What were the trends there over the past 12 months? I've heard some data and it's pretty scary, but what did you see? >>Yeah, so we're actually, ransomware is always the thorn in our side, and it's going to continue to be so, um, you know, in fact, uh, ransomware is not a new itself. It was actually first created in 1989, and they demanded ransom payments through snail mail. This was to appeal a box, obviously that, that, that didn't take off. Wasn't a successful on the internet was porn at the time. But if you look at it now, of course, over the last 10 years, really, that's where it ran. The ransomware model has been, uh, you know, lucrative, right? I mean, it's been, um, using, uh, by force encrypting data on systems, so that users had to, if they were forced to pay the ransom because they wanted access to their data back data was the target currency for ransomware. That's shifted now. And that's actually been a big pivotal over the last year or so, because again, before it was this let's cast a wide net, in fact, as many people as we can random, um, and try to see if we can hold some of their data for ransom. >>Some people that data may be valuable, it may not be valuable. Um, and that model still exists. Uh, and we see that, but really the big shift that we saw last year and the threat landscape before it was a shift to targeted rats. So again, the sophistication is starting to rise because they're not just going out to random data. They're going out to data that they know is valuable to large organizations, and they're taking that a step further now. So there's various ransomware families. We saw that have now reverted to extortion and blackmail, right? So they're taking that data, encrypting it and saying, unless you pay us as large sum of money, we're going to release this to the public or sell it to a buyer on the dark web. And of course you can imagine the amount of, um, you know, damages that can happen from that. The other thing we're seeing is, is a target of going to revenue services, right? So if they can cripple networks, it's essentially a denial of service. They know that the company is going to be bleeding, you know, X, millions of dollars a day, so they can demand Y million dollars of ransom payments, and that's effectively what's happening. So it's, again, becoming more targeted, uh, and more sophisticated. And unfortunately the ransom is going up. >>So they go to where the money is. And of course your job is to, it's a lower the ROI for them, a constant challenge. Um, we talked about some of the attack vectors, uh, that you saw this year that, that cyber criminals are targeting. I wonder if, if, you know, given the work from home, if things like IOT devices and cameras and, you know, thermostats, uh, with 75% of the work force at home, is this infrastructure more vulnerable? I guess, of course it is. But what did you see there in terms of attacks on those devices? >>Yeah, so, uh, um, uh, you know, unfortunately the attack surface as we call it, uh, so the amount of target points is expanding. It's not shifting, it's expanding. We still see, um, I saw, I mentioned earlier vulnerabilities from two years ago that are being used in some cases, you know, over the holidays where e-commerce means we saw e-commerce heavily under attack in e-commerce has spikes since last summer, right. It's been a huge amount of traffic increase everybody's shopping from home. And, uh, those vulnerabilities going after a shopping cart, plugins, as an example, are five to six years old. So we still have this theme of old vulnerabilities are still new in a sense being attacked, but we're also now seeing this complication of, yeah, as you said, IOT, uh, B roll out everywhere, the really quick shift to work from home. Uh, we really have to treat this as if you guys, as the, uh, distributed branch model for enterprise, right. >>And it's really now the secure branch. How do we take, um, um, you know, any of these devices on, on those networks and secure them, uh, because yeah, if you look at the, what we highlighted in our landscape report and the top 10 attacks that we're seeing, so hacking attacks hacking in tabs, this is who our IPS triggers. You know, we're seeing attempts to go after IOT devices. Uh, right now they're mostly, uh, favoring, uh, well in terms of targets, um, consumer grade routers. Uh, but they're also looking at, um, uh, DVR devices as an example for, uh, you know, home entertainment systems, uh, network attached storage as well, and IP security cameras, um, some of the newer devices, uh, what, the quote unquote smart devices that are now on, you know, virtual assistance and home networks. Uh, we actually released a predictions piece at the end of last year as well. So this is what we call the new intelligent edge. And that's what I think is we're really going to see this year in terms of what's ahead. Um, cause we always have to look ahead and prepare for that. But yeah, right now, unfortunately, the story is, all of this is still happening. IOT is being targeted. Of course they're being targeted because they're easy targets. Um, it's like for cybercriminals, it's like shooting fish in a barrel. There's not just one, but there's multiple vulnerabilities, security holes associated with these devices, easy entry points into networks. >>I mean, it's, um, I mean, attackers they're, they're highly capable. They're organized, they're well-funded they move fast, they're they're agile, uh, and they follow the money. As we were saying, uh, you, you mentioned, you know, co vaccines and, you know, big pharma healthcare, uh, where >>Did you see advanced, persistent >>Threat groups really targeting? Were there any patterns that emerged in terms of other industry types or organizations being targeted? >>Yeah. So just to be clear again, when we talk about AP teams, um, uh, advanced, specific correct group, the groups themselves they're targeting, these are usually the more sophisticated groups, of course. So going back to that theme, these are usually the target, the, um, the premeditated targeted attacks usually points to nation state. Um, sometimes of course there's overlap. They can be affiliated with cyber crime, cyber crime, uh, uh, groups are typically, um, looking at some other targets for ROI, uh, bio there's there's a blend, right? So as an example, if we're looking at the, uh, apt groups I had last year, absolutely. Number one I would say would be healthcare. Healthcare was one of those, and it's, it's, it's, uh, you know, very unfortunate, but obviously with the shift that was happening at a pop up medical facilities, there's a big, a rush to change networks, uh, for a good cause of course, but with that game, um, you know, uh, security holes and concerns the targets and, and that's what we saw IPT groups targeting was going after those and, and ransomware and the cyber crime shrine followed as well. Right? Because if you can follow, uh, those critical networks and crippled them on from cybercriminals point of view, you can, you can expect them to pay the ransom because they think that they need to buy in order to, um, get those systems back online. Uh, in fact, last year or two, unfortunately we saw the first, um, uh, death that was caused because of a denial of service attack in healthcare, right. Facilities were weren't available because of the cyber attack. Patients had to be diverted and didn't make it on the way. >>All right. Jericho, sufficiently bummed out. So maybe in the time remaining, we can talk about remediation strategies. You know, we know there's no silver bullet in security. Uh, but what approaches are you recommending for organizations? How are you consulting with folks? >>Sure. Yeah. So a couple of things, um, good news is there's a lot that we can do about this, right? And, um, and, and basic measures go a long way. So a couple of things just to get out of the way I call it housekeeping, cyber hygiene, but it's always worth reminding. So when we talk about keeping security patches up to date, we always have to talk about that because that is reality as et cetera, these, these vulnerabilities that are still being successful are five to six years old in some cases, the majority two years old. Um, so being able to do that, manage that from an organization's point of view, really treat the new work from home. I don't like to call it a work from home. So the reality is it's work from anywhere a lot of the times for some people. So really treat that as, as the, um, as a secure branch, uh, methodology, doing things like segmentations on network, secure wifi access, multi-factor authentication is a huge muscle, right? >>So using multi-factor authentication because passwords are dead, um, using things like, uh, XDR. So Xers is a combination of detection and response for end points. This is a mass centralized management thing, right? So, uh, endpoint detection and response, as an example, those are all, uh, you know, good security things. So of course having security inspection, that that's what we do. So good threat intelligence baked into your security solution. That's supported by labs angles. So, uh, that's, uh, you know, uh, antivirus, intrusion prevention, web filtering, sandbox, and so forth, but then it gets that that's the security stack beyond that it gets into the end user, right? Everybody has a responsibility. This is that supply chain. We talked about. The supply chain is, is, is a target for attackers attackers have their own supply chain as well. And we're also part of that supply chain, right? The end users where we're constantly fished for social engineering. So using phishing campaigns against employees to better do training and awareness is always recommended to, um, so that's what we can do, obviously that's, what's recommended to secure, uh, via the endpoints in the secure branch there's things we're also doing in the industry, um, to fight back against that with prime as well. >>Well, I, I want to actually talk about that and talk about ecosystems and collaboration, because while you have competitors, you all want the same thing. You, SecOps teams are like superheroes in my book. I mean, they're trying to save the world from the bad guys. And I remember I was talking to Robert Gates on the cube a couple of years ago, a former defense secretary. And I said, yeah, but don't, we have like the best security people and can't we go on the offensive and weaponize that ourselves. Of course, there's examples of that. Us. Government's pretty good at it, even though they won't admit it. But his answer to me was, yeah, we gotta be careful because we have a lot more to lose than many countries. So I thought that was pretty interesting, but how do you collaborate with whether it's the U S government or other governments or other other competitors even, or your ecosystem? Maybe you could talk about that a little bit. >>Yeah. Th th this is what, this is what makes me tick. I love working with industry. I've actually built programs for 15 years of collaboration in the industry. Um, so, you know, we, we need, I always say we can't win this war alone. You actually hit on this point earlier, you talked about following and trying to disrupt the ROI of cybercriminals. Absolutely. That is our target, right. We're always looking at how we can disrupt their business model. Uh, and, and in order, there's obviously a lot of different ways to do that, right? So a couple of things we do is resiliency. That's what we just talked about increasing the security stack so that they go knocking on someone else's door. But beyond that, uh, it comes down to private, private sector collaborations. So, uh, we, we, uh, co-founder of the cyber threat Alliance in 2014 as an example, this was our fierce competitors coming in to work with us to share intelligence, because like you said, um, competitors in the space, but we need to work together to do the better fight. >>And so this is a Venn diagram. What's compared notes, let's team up, uh, when there's a breaking attack and make sure that we have the intelligence so that we can still remain competitive on the technology stack to gradation the solutions themselves. Uh, but let's, let's level the playing field here because cybercriminals moved out, uh, you know, um, uh, that, that there's no borders and they move with great agility. So, uh, that's one thing we do in the private private sector. Uh, there's also, uh, public private sector relationships, right? So we're working with Interpol as an example, Interfor project gateway, and that's when we find attribution. So it's not just the, what are these people doing like infrastructure, but who, who are they, where are they operating? What, what events tools are they creating? We've actually worked on cases that are led down to, um, uh, warrants and arrests, you know, and in some cases, one case with a $60 million business email compromise fraud scam, the great news is if you look at the industry as a whole, uh, over the last three to four months has been for take downs, a motet net Walker, uh, um, there's also IE Gregor, uh, recently as well too. >>And, and Ian Gregor they're actually going in and arresting the affiliates. So not just the CEO or the King, kind of these organizations, but the people who are distributing the ransomware themselves. And that was a unprecedented step, really important. So you really start to paint a picture of this, again, supply chain, this ecosystem of cyber criminals and how we can hit them, where it hurts on all angles. I've most recently, um, I've been heavily involved with the world economic forum. Uh, so I'm, co-author of a report from last year of the partnership on cyber crime. And, uh, this is really not just the pro uh, private, private sector, but the private and public sector working together. We know a lot about cybercriminals. We can't arrest them. Uh, we can't take servers offline from the data centers, but working together, we can have that whole, you know, that holistic effect. >>Great. Thank you for that, Derek. What if people want, want to go deeper? Uh, I know you guys mentioned that you do blogs, but are there other resources that, that they can tap? Yeah, absolutely. So, >>Uh, everything you can see is on our threat research blog on, uh, so 40 net blog, it's under expired research. We also put out, uh, playbooks, w we're doing blah, this is more for the, um, the heroes as he called them the security operation centers. Uh, we're doing playbooks on the aggressors. And so this is a playbook on the offense, on the offense. What are they up to? How are they doing that? That's on 40 guard.com. Uh, we also release, uh, threat signals there. So, um, we typically release, uh, about 50 of those a year, and those are all, um, our, our insights and views into specific attacks that are now >>Well, Derek Mackie, thanks so much for joining us today. And thanks for the work that you and your teams do. Very important. >>Thanks. It's yeah, it's a pleasure. And, uh, rest assured we will still be there 24 seven, three 65. >>Good to know. Good to know. And thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Volante for the cube. We'll see you next time.