(smart gentle music) >> Hey, welcome back everyone to theCUBE's coverage of Red Hat Summit 2021 virtual. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE, got two great guests here from AWS, Bob Wise, General Manager of Kubernetes for Amazon Web Services and Peder Ulander, Head of product marketing for the enterprise developer and open-source at AWS. Gentlemen, you guys are the core leaders in the AWS open-source initiatives. Thanks for joining us on theCUBE here for Red Hat Summit. >> Thanks for having us, John. >> Good to be here. >> So the innovation that's come from people building on top of the cloud has just been amazing. You guys, props to Amazon Web Services for constantly adding more and raising the bar on more services every year. You guys do that, and now public cloud has become so popular, and so important that now Hybrid has pushed the Edge. You got outpost with Amazon you see everyone following suit. It's pretty much clear vote of confidence from the customers that, Hybrid is the operating model of the future. And that really is about the Edge. So I want to chat with you about the open-source intersection there, so let's get into it. So we're here at Red Hat Summit. So Red Hat's an open-source company and timing is great for them. Now, part of IBM you guys have had a relationship with Red Hat for some time. Can you tell us about the partnership and how it's working together? >> Yeah, absolutely. Why don't I take that one? AWS and Red Hat have been strategic partners since, shoot, I think it's 2008 or so in the early days of AWS, when engaging with customers, we wanted to ensure that AWS was the best place for enterprises to run their Red Hat workloads. And this is super important when you think about, what Red Hat has accomplished with RHEL in the enterprise, it's running SAP, it's running Oracle's, it's running all different types of core business applications, as well as a lot of the new things that customers are innovating. And so having that relationship to ensure that not only did it work on AWS, but it actually scaled we had integration of services, we had the performance, the price all of the things that were so critical to customers was critical from day one. And we continue to evolve this relationship over time. As you see us coming into Red Hat Summit this year. >> Well, again, to the hard news here also the new service Red Hat OpenShift servers on AWS known as ROSA, the A for Amazon Red Hat OpenShift, A for Amazon Web Services, a clever acronym but really it's on AWS. What exactly is this service? What does it do? And who is it designed for? >> Well, I'll let me jump in on this one. Maybe let's start with the why? Why ROSA? Customers love using OpenShift, but they also want to use AWS. They want the best of both. So they want their peanut butter and their chocolate together in a single confection. A lot of those customers have deployed AWS, have deployed OpenShift on AWS. They want managed service simplified supply chain. We want to be able to streamline moving on premises, OpenShift workloads to AWS, naturally want good integration with AWS services. So as to the, what? Our new service jointly operated is supported by Red Hat and AWS to provide a fully managed to OpenShifts on AWS. So again, like lot of customers have been running OpenShift on AWS before this time, but of course they were managing it themselves typically. And so now they get a fully managed option with also simplified supply chain. Single support channels, single billing. >> You know, were talking before we came on camera about the acronym on AWS and people build on the clouds kind of like it's no big deal to say that, but I know it means something. I want to explain, you guys to explain this on because I know I've been scolded saying things on theCUBE that were kind of misspoken because it's easy to say, Oh yeah, I built that app. We built all this stuff on theCUBE was on AWS, but it's not on AWS. It means something from a designation standpoint what does on AWS mean? 'Cause this is OpenShift servers on AWS, we see this other companies have their products on AWS. This is specific designation. Can you share, please. >> John, when you see the branding of something like Red Hat on AWS, what that basically signals to our customers is that this is joint engineering work. This is the top of the strategic partners where we actually do a lot of joint engineering and work to make sure that we're driving the right integrations and the right experience, make sure that these things are accessible and discoverable in our console. They're treated effectively as a first-class service inside of the AWS ecosystem. So it's, there's not many of the on's, if you will. You think about SAP on VMware cloud, on AWS, and now Red Hat OpenShift on AWS, it really is that signal that helps give customers the confidence of tested, tried, trued, supported and validated service on top of AWS. And we think that's significantly better than anything else. It's easy to run an image on a VM and stuffed it into a cloud service to make it available, but customers want better, customer want tighter experiences. They want to be able to take advantage of all the great things that we have from a scale availability and performance perspective. And that's really what we're pushing towards. >> Yeah. I've seen examples specifically where when partners work with Amazon at that level of joint engineering, deeper partnerships. The results were pretty significant on the business side. So congratulations to you guys working with OpenShift and Red Hat, that's real testament to their product. But I got to ask you guys, pull the Amazon playbook out and challenge you guys, or just, create a new some commentary around the process of working backwards. Every time I talked to Andy Jassy, he always says, we work backwards from the customer and we get the requirements, and we're listening to customers. Okay, great. He loves that, he loves to say that it's true. I know that I've seen that. What is the customer work backwards document look like here? What is the, what was the need and what made this become such an important part of AWS? What was the, and then what are they saying now, now that the products out there? >> Well, OpenShift has a very wide footprint as does AWS. Some working backwards documents kind of write themselves, because now the customer demand is so strong that there's just no avoiding it. Now, it really just becomes about making sure you have a good plan so it becomes much more operational at that point. ROSA's definitely one of those services. We had so much demand and as a result, no surprise that we're getting a lot of enthusiasm for customers because so many of them asked us for it. (crosstalk) >> What's been the reaction in asking demand. That's kind of got the sense of that, but okay. So there's demand now, what's the what's the use cases? What are customers saying? What's the reaction been? >> Lot of the use cases are these Hybrid kind of use cases where a customer has a big OpenShift footprint. What we see from a lot of these customers is a strong demand for consistency in order to reduce IT sprawl. What they really want to do is have the smallest number of simplest environments they can. And so when customers that standardized on OpenShift really wants to be able to standardize OpenShifts, both in their on premises environment and on AWS and get managed service options just to remove the undifferentiated heavy lifting. >> Hey, what's your take on the product marketing side of this, where you got open-source becoming very enterprise specific, Red Hat's been there for a very long time. I've been user of Red Hat since the beginning and following them, and Linux, obviously is Linux where that's come from. But what features specifically jump out in this offering that customers are resonating around? What's the vibe here? >> John, you kind of alluded to it early on, which is I don't know that I'd necessarily call it Hybrid but the reality is our customers have environments that are on premises in the cloud and all the way out to the Edge. Today, when you think of a lot of solutions and services, it's a fractured experience that they have between those three locations. And one of our biggest commitments to our customers, just to make things super simple, remove the complexity do all of the hard work, which means, customers are looking for a consistent experience environment and tooling that spans data center to cloud, to Edge. And that's probably the biggest kind of core asset here for customers who might have standardized on OpenShift in the data centers. They come to the cloud, they want to continue to leverage those skills. I think probably one of the, an interesting one is we headed down in this path, we all know Delta Airlines. Delta is a great example of a customer who, joint customer, who have been doing stuff inside of AWS for a long time. They've been standardizing on Red Hat for a long time and bringing this together just gave them that simple extension to take their investment in Red Hat OpenShift and leverage their experience. And again, the scale and performance of what AWS brings them. >> Next question, what's next for a Red Hat OpenShift on AWS in your work with Red Hat. Where does this go next? What's the big to-do item, what do you guys see as the vision? >> I'm glad you mentioned open-source collaboration at the start there. We're taking to point out is that AWS works on the Kubernetes project upstream as does the Red Hat teams. So one of the ways that we collaborate with the Red Hat team is in open-source. One of those projects is on a new project called ACK. It was on controllers for Kubernetes and this is a kind of Kubernetes friendly way for my customers to use an API to manage AWS services. So that's one of the things that we're looking forward to as that goes GA wobbling out into both ROSA and onto our other services. >> Awesome. I got to ask you guys this while you're here, because it's very rare to get two luminaries within AWS on the open-source side. This has been a huge build-out over the many, many years for AWS, and some people really kind of don't understand kind of the position. So take a minute to clarify the position of AWS on open-source. You guys are very active in a lot of projects. You mentioned upstream with Kubernetes in other areas. I've had many countries with Adrian Cockcroft on this, as well as others within AWS. Huge proponents web services, I mean, you go back to the original Amazon. I mean, Jeff Barr was saying 15 years ago some of those API's are still in play here. API's back in 15 years ago, that was kind of not main stream at that time. So you had open standards, really made Amazon web services successful and you guys are continuing it but as the modern era is very enterprise, like and you see a lot of legacy, you seeing a lot more operations that they're going to be driven by open technologies that you guys are investing in. I'll take a minute to explain what AWS is doing and what you guys care about and your mission? >> Yeah. Well, why don't I start? And then we'll kick it over to Bob 'cause I think Bob can also talk about some of the key contribution sides, but the best way to think about it is kind of in three different pillars. So let's start with the first one, which is, around the fact of ensuring that our customer's favorite open-source projects run best on AWS. Since 2006, we've been helping our customers operationalize their open-source investments and really kind of achieve that scale and focus more on how they use and innovate on the products versus how they set up and run. And for myself being an open-source since the late 90s, the biggest opportunity, yet challenge was the access to the technology, but it still required you as a customer to learn how to set up, configure, operationalized support and sustain. AWS removes that heavy lifting and, again, back to that earlier point from the beginning of AWS, we helped customers scale and implement their Apache services, their database services, all of these different types of open-source projects to make them really work exceptionally well on AWS. And back to that point, make sure that AWS was the best place for their open-source projects. I think the second thing that we do, and you're seeing that today with what we're doing with ROSA and Red Hat is we partner with open-source leaders from Red Hat to Redis and Confluent to a number of different players out there, Grafana, and Prometheus, to even foundations like the LF and the CNCF. We partner with these leaders to ensure that we're working together to grow grow the overall experience and the overall the overall pie, if you will. And this kind of gets into that point you were making John in that, the old world legacy proprietary stuff, there's a huge chance for refresh and new opportunity and rethinking or modernization if you will, as you come into the cloud having the expertise and the partnerships with these key players is as enterprises move in, is so crucial. And then the third piece I'd like to talk about that's important to our open-source strategies is really around contribution. We have a number of projects that we've delivered ourselves. I think the two most recent ones that really come top of mind for me is, what we did with Babel Fish, as well as with OpenSearch. So contributing and driving a true open-source project that helps our customers, take advantage of things like an SQL, a proprietary to open-source SQL conversion tool, or what we're doing to make Elasticsearch, the opportune or the primary open platform for our customers. But it's not just about those services, it's also collaborating with key industry initiatives. Bob's at the forefront of that with what we're doing with the CNCF around things, like Kubernetes and Prometheus et cetera, Bob you want to jump in on some of that? >> Sure, I think the one thing I would add here is that customers love using those open-source projects. The one of the challenges with them frequently is security. And this is job zero to AWS. So a lot of the collaboration work we do, a lot of the work that we do on upstream projects is go specifically around kind of security oriented things because that is what customers expect when they come to get a managed service at AWS. Some of those efforts are somewhat unsung because you generally do more work and less talk, in security oriented things. But projects across AWS, that's always a key contribution focus for us. >> Good way to call out security too. I think that's being built-in to the everything now, that's an operating model. People call it shift-left day two operations. Whatever you want to look at it. You got this nice formation going between under the hood kind of programmability of the infrastructure at scale. And then you have the modern application development which is just beginning, programmable DevSecOps. It's funny, Bob, I'd love to get your take on this because I remember in the 80s and during the Unix generation I used to peddle software under the table. Like, here's a copy of, you just don't tell anyone, people in the younger generation don't get the fact that it wasn't always open. And so now you have open and you have this idea of an enterprise that's going to be a system management system view. So you got engineering and you got computer science kind of coming together, this SRE middle layer. You're hearing that as a, kind of a new discipline. So DevOps kind of has won. I mean, we kind of knew this for many, many years. I said this in 2013 on theCUBE actually at re-inventing. I just recently shared that clip. But okay, now you've got SecOps, DevSecOps. So now you have an era where it's a system thinking and open-source is driving all of that. So can you share your perspective because this is kind of where the puck is going. It's an open to open world. That's going to have to be open and scalable. How does open-source and you guys take it to the next level to give that same scale and reliability? What's your vision? >> The key here is really around automation and what we're seeing you could look at Kubernetes. Kubernetes, is essentially a robot. It was like the early design of it was built around robotics principles. So it's a giant software robot and the world has changed. If you just look at the influx of all kinds of automation to not just the DevOps world but to all industries, you see a similar kind of trend. And so the world of IT operations person is changing from doing the work that the robot did and replacing it with the robot to managing large numbers of robots. And in this case, the robots are like a little early and a little hard to talk to. And so, you end up using languages like YAML and other things, but it turns out robots still just do what you tell them to do. And so one of the things you have to do is be really, really careful because robots will go and do whatever it is you ask them to do. On the other hand, they're really, really good at doing that. So in the security area, they take the research points to the largest single source of security issues, being people making manual mistakes. And a lot of people are still a little bit terrified if human beings aren't touching things on the way to production. In AWS, we're terrified if humans aren't touching it. And that is a super hard chasm to cross and open-source projects have really, are really playing a big role in what's really a IT wide migration to a whole new set of, not just tools, but organizational approaches. >> What's your reaction to that? Because we're talking that essentially software concepts, because if you write bad code, the code will execute what you did. So assuming it compiles left in the old days. Now, if you're going to scale a large scale operations that has dynamic capabilities, services being initiated in terminating tear down up started, you need the automation, but if you really don't design it right, you could be screwed. This is a huge deal. >> This is one reason why we've put so much effort into getops that you can think of it as a more narrowly defined subset of the DevOps world with a specific set of principles around using kind of simplified declarative approaches, along with robots that converge the desired state, converge the system to the desired state. And when you get into large distributed systems, you end up needing to take those kinds of approaches to get it to work at scale. Otherwise you have problems. >> Yeah, just adding to that. And it's funny, you said DevOps has won. I actually think DevOps has won, but DevOps hasn't changed (indistinct) Bob, you were right, the reality is it was founded back what quite a while ago, it was more around CICD in the enterprise and the closed data center. And it was one of those where automation and runbooks took addressed the fact that, every pair of hands between service requests and service delivery recreated or created an issue. So that growth and that mental model of moving from a waterfall, agile to DevOps, you built it, you run it, type of a model, I think is really, really important. But as it comes out into the cloud, you no longer have those controls of the data center and you actually have infinite scale. So back to your point of you got to get this right. You have to architect correctly you have to make sure that your code is good, you have to make sure that you have full visibility. This is where it gets really interesting at AWS. And some of the things that we're tying in. So whether we're talking about getops like what Bob just went through, or what you brought up with DevSecOps, you also have things like, AIOps. And so looking at how we take our machine learning tools to really implement the appropriate types of code reviews to assessing your infrastructure or your choices against well-architected principles and providing automated remediation is key, adding to that is observability, developers, especially in a highly distributed environment need to have better understanding, fidelity and touchpoints of what's going on with our application as it runs in production. And so what we do with regards to the work we have in observability around Grafana and Prometheus projects only accelerate that co-whole concept of continuous monitoring and continuous observability, and then kind of really, adding to that, I think it was last month, we introduce our fault injection simulator, a chaos engineering tool that, again takes advantage of all of this automation and machine learning to really help our developers, our customers operate at scale. And make sure that when they are releasing code, they're releasing code that is not just great in a small sense, it works on my laptop, but it works great in a highly distributed massively scaled environment around the globe. >> You know, this is one of the things that impresses me about Red Hat this year. And I've said this before all the covers events I've covered with them is that they get the cloud scale piece and I think their relationship with you guys shows that I think, DevOps has won, but it's the gift that keeps giving in open-source because what you have here is no longer a conversation about the cloud moving to the cloud. It's the cloud has become the operating model. So the conversation shifts to much more complicated enterprise or, and or intelligent Edge, and whether it's industrial or human or whatever, you got a data problem. So that's about a programmability issue at scale. So what's interesting is that Red Hat is on those bandwagon. It's an operating system. I mean, basically it's a distributed computing paradigm, essentially ala AWS concept as a cloud. Now it goes to the Edge, it's just distributed services via an open-source. So what's your reaction to that? >> Yeah, it's back to the original point, John where I said, any CIO is thinking about their IT environment from data center to cloud, to Edge and the more consistency automation and, kind of tools that they're at their disposal to enable them to create that kind of, I think you started to talk about an infrastructure the whole as code infrastructure's code, it's now, almost everything is code. And that starts with the operating system, obviously. And that's why this is so critical that we're partnering with companies like Red Hat on our vision and their vision, because they aligned to where our customers were ultimately going. Bob, you want to, you want to add to that? >> Bob: No, I think you said it. >> John: You guys are crushing it. Bob, one quick question for you, while I got you here. You mentioned getops, I've heard this before, I kind of understand it. Can you just quickly define from your perspective. What is getops? >> Sure, well, getops is really taking the, I said before it's a kind of narrowed version of DevOps. Sure, it's infrastructure is code. Sure, you're doing things incrementally but the getops principle, it's back to like, what are the good, what are the best practices we are managing large numbers, large numbers of robots. And in this case, it's around this idea of declarative intent. So instead of having systems that reach into production and change things, what you do is you set up the defined declared state of the system that you want and then leave the robots to constantly work to converge the state there. That seems kind of nebulous. Let me give you like a really concrete example from Kubernetes, by the way the entire Kubernetes system design is based on this. You say, I want five pods running in production and that's running my application. So what Kubernetes does is it sits there and it constantly checks, Oh, I'm supposed to have five pods. Do I have five? Well, what happens if the machine running one of those pods goes away. Now, suddenly it goes and checks and says, Oh, I'm supposed to have five pods, but there's four pods. What action do I take to now try to get the system back to the state. So you don't have a system running, reaching out and checking externally to Kubernetes, you let Kubernetes do the heavy lifting there. And so it goes through, goes through a loop of, Oh, I need to start a new pod and then it converges the system state back to running five pods. So it's really taking that kind of declarative intent combined with constant convergence loops to fully production at scale. >> That's awesome. Well, we do a whole segment on state and stateless future, but we don't have time. I do want to summarize real quick. We're here at the Red Hat Summit 2021. You got Red Hat OpenShift on AWS. The big news, Bob and Peder tell us quickly in summary, why AWS? Why Red Hat? Why better together? Give the quick overview, Bob, we'll start with you. >> Bob, you want to kick us off? >> I'm going to repeat peanut butter and chocolate. Customers love OpenShift, they love managed services. They want a simplified operations, simplified supply chain. So you get the best of both worlds. You get the OpenShift that you want fully managed on AWS, where you get all of the security and scale. Yeah, I can't add much to that. Other than saying, Red Hat is powerhouse obviously on data centers it is the operating system of the data center. Bringing together the best in the cloud, with the best in the data center is such a huge benefit to our customers. Because back to your point, John, our customers are thinking about what are they doing from data center to cloud, to Edge and bringing the best of those pieces together in a seamless solution is so, so critical. And that that's why AW. (indistinct) >> Thanks for coming on, I really appreciate it. I just want to give you guys a plug for you and being humble, but you've worked in the CNCF and standards bodies has been well, well known and I'm getting the word out. Congratulations for the commitment to open-source. Really appreciate the community. Thanks you, thank you for your time. >> Thanks, John. >> Okay, Cube coverage here, covering Red Hat Summit 2021. I'm John Ferry, host of theCUBE. Thanks for watching. (smart gentle music)

>> Voiceover: Live from the Javits Center in New York City, it's The Cube, covering Inforum 2017. Brought to you by Infor. >> Welcome back to The Cube's coverage of Inforum. I am your host, Rebecca Knight, along with my co-host, Dave Vellante. We're joined by Terry Wise. He is the Vice President of Alliances for AWS. Thanks so much for coming on the program again. >> It's great to be here, yeah, thanks. >> So we are now a few years into this relationship with Infor. Where are we? Put things in perspective for us. >> Oh it's a great question. I think in some respects, this is arguably the most mature and strategic relationship we have. We've been working with Infor for, I've been at Amazon now nine years, and a better part of my nine years, we've been working with Infor, you know. In the early days it was awesome, before Infor bought the company. And, they've always done a great job of pushing us to be more enterprise-centric, more innovative in our platform and services. So it's very mature from that perspective. But I'd say, also at the same time, we're just entering a whole new days. We'd like to call it Day One at Amazon. If you look at some of the things that Charles and the team announced today with Coleman, and some of the new functionality and the growth of the cloud, I mean, we really are still at the early stages of this relationship, which is exciting. >> You know what's interesting to me Terry is, you know, Andy always talks about the fly wheel. He was, sort of, the first to use that terminology. And I was sitting in the endless meeting yesterday, and Infor was going through its architecture. And I just saw a lot of fly wheel in there. I mean, there is DynamoDB in there. I certainly saw S3. I think there was Kinesis, in terms of time series stuff. I think I saw Redshift in there. And so I wonder if you could talk about how this company, specifically, but generally, how people are leveraging net fly wheel of innovation to drive value for their customers. >> Yeah. And again, I think this goes back to the relationship we've had with Infor for so many years. Cloud is not just about cheap computing storage. It's really about platform and innovation that comes from that platform. And, you know, and partners and customers, like Infor, that have been with us a while, and they've got the skillsets internally, they've got great vision for how they want to take their customers with application functionality. They're really ripe to be able to take advantage of all the innovative platform services we build. Kinesis, Lambda for serverless computing. We're talking about some neat things around Edge. You heard Charles and Duncan today talk about Lex and some of the AI capabilities we have that are underpinning Coleman and some other new offerings. So they really are, kind of, the poster child for adopting our new services and driving innovation on top of our platform for their customer base. >> So where, if you can, look into your crystal ball a little bit. Where will we be a year from now, three years from now, with these technologies? >> So if I look out a year, I think, you know, rapid global expansion. You know, we're long past in many respects, sort of the, the early questions around cloud. Is it secure? Is it cost-effective? Is it robust and reliable? We're really past that if I look out across the globe. And now it's a question of how can we help enterprises adapt faster. And that's really, probably, the single biggest question I get from enterprise customers is, "This is great. Help me move quickly." And I think one of the neat things about the Infor relationship is, because they've packaged all of this innovation, into a set of business applications, they're actually helping customers move to the cloud quite a bit faster, and get that great value prop of cost efficiency, security, innovation, et cetera. Looking out three years, I think Duncan and the team did a very nice job today talking about the interaction ad user experience of how you're going to engage with business software moving forward. It's going to be very voice-driven. It's going to be predictive in nature so it's actually going to tell you what you need to think about versus going to a terminal or even a mobile device. So much left to do in that space. But I really do think, you know, three years from now, machine-learning won't be a buzz word, nor will artificial intelligence. It'll just be a bigger part of our daily lives. >> We were talking to Chip Coyle a little bit about trying to debunk some of the myths in cloud, specifically Amazon cloud. And I mentioned Oracle, saying that core enterprise apps really aren't going to the cloud, that's why you need Oracle. And they've got a strategy to do that, you've seen it. But then you going to see Infor, 55% of their business is in your cloud. They look like core enterprise apps. So is it, my question is, help us debunk that myth. But is it narrowly confined to companies like Infor, or are there examples of others? I mean, certainly there are companies, you guys have unbelievable logo chart. But when you peel back the onion, many of those apps are cloud-native or emerging apps. Those core of enterprise apps, we're seeing it from Infor. I wonder if you can add some color to that and are there other examples? >> Absolutely, I mean, I think there's others in the market that may be uncomfortable with the change that's happening with cloud, and therefore might be incented to try to slow that down. But I will say, the vast majority of all software companies we're engaging with are moving mission-critical enterprise apps to AWS. Some built natively in SaaS, like Infor is done. Others that are enabling, certifying their applications, SAP is another good example. You can kind of go across the stack, Adobe, AutoDesk, Siemens PLM, for product lifecycle management. And if you think about, you know, that's putting companies' core IP, the product development into the cloud to take advantage of all this agility, scale, cost-savings, et cetera. So it's been happening for a long time. Di-so is another great one, very innovative but somewhat conservative french company. They were very early on in the journey with us. And again, that's, you know, IP used to design airplanes, the things we fly around it. So it's been happening for a long time. It's accelerating. And I would say the other trend we're seeing is the companies out there that are resisting, we're hearing more and more from customers that, "Hey, that company is not helping move me to the future. Can you help me find an alternative?" So there's this big movement for enterprises to actually migrate out of legacy platforms, whether that's hardware or software, and move in to the cloud-native platforms, which are the future. >> So we see, we've been talking on The Cube for years about this whole digital transformation and how it's going to allow companies to play in different industries. Amazon, obviously. Retailer just purchased Whole Foods, getting into grocery. It's a content company. So Walmart said, "Alright, we're not going to put our stuff "in the Amazon cloud." Netflix obviously does. How do you deal with that? The obvious competitive fears of some of the customers that you have for AWS? How do you message that? And what do you tell the world? >> Sure, the first thing is, I mean, AWS, while it is part of Amazon.com, we are a separate operating group. And we've been that way since the beginning. So yeah, Amazon is a customer, just like Netflix or Nordstrom, or any of the other, you know, millions that we serve. Now a very hard customer and a very good customer. And they help drive our innovation road map. But we don't treat them any differently than we do, Netflix or the others. And part of that has to do with how we protect and secure the information that those companies put on AWS. So there's some companies out there, the one you just mentioned, that's still may be a bit uncomfortable, for whatever reasons, competitive reasons, putting information or having third parties put information related to their business on AWS. Yeah, I think that's unfortunate, I think. And it also talks about two different philosophies. We take very much a customer-centric view of the business. What's best for the customer. And if one of our partners has a better capability, we've got plenty of partners that have similar products to what we offer, but if it's the better product for the customer, we're more than happy to support that. Whereas others out there take a very competitive focus to the market. Where it's, they're watching what their competitors are doing. They're trying to head them off at the pass, or copy what their competitors are doing. In the long term, I don't think that's a fantastic strategy 'coz you're never really innovating on behalf of the customer. You're never giving them the best solution. You're actually preventing them from getting something that could be beneficial to that customer. And we just don't believe that's a long-term great business strategy for our customers and for ourselves. >> We recently saw the announcement of Amazon purchasing Whole Foods. Can you talk a little bit about this for our viewers. And talk about where, how you see the future of grocery and retail, where it's going. >> Sure, so we've announced our intention to purchase Whole Foods. It has not happenned. There's still some work to do there. But I think, you know, anytime we look at, you know, how we're going to expand, either organically or through acquisition, it's about, what are the synergies between our existing business, what the customers are looking for, and how can we create a better experience for that customer. How can we do it at scale? How can we innovate around that model? And then, you know, how can we make that a great long-term experience for the customer that ultimately drives the success and growth of our business, but also the partners that we bring in, whether again through acquisition or through third party partnership. This is kind of a, you look at this as a natural move as we look at what our customers are telling us, "Hey make it easier for us to purchase groceries and "household items." You know, and do it in a hybrid way, both, you know, combination of online and more from the physical presence. >> Terry I wonder if you could talk about, we mentioned the Edge before. And as you build out your partner strategy and the partner ecosystem. Talk more about the Edge, where it fits. Analytics at the Edge, and Amazon being the cloud, so what's your point of view on what happens at the Edge, what moves back to the cloud, the expense of moving things back to the cloud. What's your thought on that whole thing? >> Well, there's so many use cases for Edge computing. I mean, take the mining industry. You're putting huge trucks in the middle of nowhere that may have limited or very expensive connectivity. And they're capturing all kinds of, you know, information, during the natural operation of that machine. And it just makes sense that you want some level of data processing, storage, and analytics to happen on that machine. It could be a cruise ship, it could be a naval vessel, it could be an airplane. There's, you know, lots and lots of different applications there. But by doing some of that processing at the Edge, you're actually limiting the amount of data you have to send back to the central cloud. But of course, if you want to take full advantage of the analytics, you actually have to match that data with all the historical data and other real-time data that's resided in the cloud to get the result you're looking for. So it really becomes, you know, kind of this hybrid computing model. So some of it is efficiency around how much data you're sending back and forth. Some of it is just efficiency around processing, the point of data capture. Some due to connectivity reasons. Some due to other. It really is kind of this interesting new extension of hybrid cloud, if you will. We're very excited about it. >> You've made some moves in that area. I mean, Snowball was, I think, you know, one of the first. And there are other sort of Edge, what I would consider Edge-like devices or solutions. How dogmatic are you about everything living in the cloud? I mean, those are steps. Should we expect, you know, increasingly extending the reach of the cloud or is it just really going to all, your world come back to the AWS clouds? >> Yeah, yeah. It'll certainly be an extension of the cloud. That's already been happening. I mean, if you look at hybrid cloud. I think we've always been a supporter of hybrid cloud if you look at our roadmap going back many, many years with virtual private cloud, with Direct Connect, with some of the newer capabilities like Snowball, and, of course, Greengrass, our Edge capabilities. We're really extending the reach out to be much more of a hybrid store. 'Coz we recognize that not all the data today exist in the cloud or AWS in the future, you know. We think most applications will run in the cloud because the value proposition is so strong across so many different dimensions. But today, there's plenty of other places we have to connect to, again to capture the data. Now, I do think the vast majority of the data that we're capturing will be either pre-processed or sent natively into AWS to create a massive data leg so that you can start to drive these innovative machine-learning and artificial intelligence applications. The predictive analytics, the algorithms. They just don't work if you don't, they don't work effectively if you don't have massive amounts of data and you continuously refresh that data so that the algorithms can continue to learn. >> I want to double click on something you said about the value. To capture most of the value, your belief is that it's going to be in the cloud, one cloud. And others obviously have different view for a variety of different reasons. I buy the cost argument. You didn't make that argument, I'm making it. The marginal cost of having a single cloud. You know, standard, how much an A it is, superior. I'll grant that. What else is there though? Is it speed? Is it innovation? Is it standardization across the base? >> The single biggest value that I hear from customers today, but they love it, they love the cheap hosting fees, the efficiency part of it, but it really is the speed and agility. It's certainly the security model as well. I would say that most, almost every organization now that we talk to, once we've had the chance to educate them, if they haven't already done so themselves, has determined that the cloud-computing security model is much more effective than they could deliver on their own. We can just invest more. We can experiment more. We can have have multiple certifications across different industries, which every customer gets to take advantage of. But I would just come back, it's the ability to move quickly whether it's moving into new market. I was just in Europe, we were talking about it. It's so volatile there right now on so many dimensions with Brexit and some of the nationalistic politics things that are happening. Potentially the opening up more of the Middle East with the sovereign wealth funds comin' into play. There's just so much opportunity that enterprises need to be able to move quickly. And if they have to go stand up a data center somewhere else, or they can't deploy the software quickly, they're at a competitive disadvantage. So the single biggest driver from what I hear from customers and what I'm seeing is agility. >> Yeah, okay, so just to clarify, I said, cost not price. But we can debate that some other time. (Terry laughs) You just came back from Europe. You mentioned Brexit. What about things like GDPR which has taken effect but the penalties go in effect May of 18. Obviously that puts a lot of pressure on the cloud provider, as well as your customers. What are you hearing in Europe? And generally and specifically GDPR. >> Yeah, I mean, I would say the regulatory environment everywhere, but specifically in Europe, continues to evolve and it's fairly fluid. We've spent many years working with the various different regulatory bodies. The Article 29 Working Party. That's actually been crafting a lot of this legislation. So we're heavily influencing, because, if you step back, people said you couldn't do cloud, but they didn't explicitly say you could. (Rebecca and Dave laugh) So, customers are meant to, "How do I interpret this?" And some, you know, like, if I look at Nel, and I look at Societe Generale, and I look at BMW, and some of, you know, our forward-leaning European customers, Siemens is another great one, who was one of the original companies to put PII in the cloud. Here's a big German company putting PII in AWS a number of years ago. So we figured out how to get, not get around, but interpret the regulations, and then also ensure that we've got the features and capabilities to make sure that they comply with those regulations. So the full audit trail, the ability to encrypt data, the ability to make sure that data storage and localization is complying with, whether it's a country-level regulation or an industry-level regulation. So we continue to spend a lot of time and effort, monitoring and influencing that. And then building the services to make sure our customers fully comply. >> Well, you've always done well with permutations and complexity and automating that, so it's going to be fun to watch. >> Rebecca: It will indeed. >> Great. >> Terry thanks so much for joining us. We really appreciate it. It's been a lot of fun talking to you. >> Yeah, great, thanks, appreciate it. >> I'm Rebecca Knight for Dave Vellante. We will have more from Inforum just after this. (upbeat music)

the queue presents on the ground here's your host John furrier hi everyone I'm John furrow it still can angle the cube we're here in San Francisco the ritz-carlton for the exclusive coverage of Amazon Web Services AWS is big announcement with VMware CEO Pat Cal singer with the CEO of Amazon Web Start sandy chasse a year on the big announcement of VMware managing a cloud on Amazon a lot of good stuff and our next guest is Terry wise who's the vice president of global alliances great to see you good to see you John thanks for having us so you're the man I'm at bout town and he came on stage we delivered a great performance kind of humbly like he always is but this is a really big deal and you guys obviously get learning on the public cloud but this is like you know almost sweeping the double header you know game one you win the public cloud game to enterprise cloud is pretty much in your back pocket with the size of VMware you got to be happy with this deal yeah we're very pleased with it I mean if you look at it we don't look at it in the terms you just articulated it certainly entertaining but we really look at it is how we're gonna best serve customers and at the beginning at the end of the day this all came about you know really by customer demand you heard both Andy and Pat talk about it enterprise customers have been talking to us for years hey we want to run these workloads across multiple environments help make us help make that happen and now is the right time in place and the right marketing conditions to make that yeah yeah tongue-in-cheek side nice nice political answer on the Amazon front but but in reality we've been covering both Amazon and VMware both in a very deep way over the past years and I was questioning myself why is Andy Jesse coming to San Francisco to announce a deal with VMware it seems like VMware is groping a lot of criticism on the false starts of the cloud I obviously knew something big was going on so I felt that but this my question but you're innovating so much at Amazon I slowed down to go work with VMware obviously it's the customers talk about the customer impact because this is important it's not that you guys are straying from the vision of AWS which is in the cloud a lot of innovation sets the services is this just another service for AWS well it's another service but it's a very different service you know to your point this is really gonna accelerate customer adoption then we're gonna make it easier for enterprise customers to move to the public cloud environment because they can leverage the same software licenses skill sets and tools that they've used to virtualize and build private clouds so now naturally extends in the V AWS environment and it should help everybody move faster and get all the goodness and the benefits of the cloud much quicker so you have two customers on there on the stage one was Western Digital they got a huge integration it's interesting the use case for him was analytics yes so that's an Amazon benefit tutor so it's not just VMware so the deal is VMware customers get to run the VMware stuff on to Amazon so you give them a lifeline for their business models Raghu was alluding to ours being more specific this allows them to preserve their licenses as well as give their customers a bridge to the future but the reality is there's a ton of services on the Amazon side that they're going to take advantage of it's not just they're gonna get Amazon they're naturally gonna use what services do you guys see the VMware customers using the most oh that's a great question and I think I mean it really runs the gamut if you look at you know analytics for sure I mean that's a no-brainer if you look at more of the innovation use cases that are happening around IOT the things that you know don't fit night they use cases that don't fit nicely into kind of your private data center because of the constraints that you have their Big Data obviously the variable kinds of workloads massive amounts of storage all that data that's coming off these IOT centers has to go somewhere that's three redshift I mean all of these things are just natural extension so you have to be completely candid I have a hard time thinking of any that would not you know be an extension to the because Dave Olave says there's a lot of cloud native agility and innovation coming on Amazon how is that going to connect into the VMware so the customers just say hey I'm a VMware customer I'm now gonna use vCenter and I got all my comfortable dashboarding and tooling and stacks technology of VMware mm-hmm now I go to Amazon I just plug into Amazon services directly yes I'll have an AWS account that's gonna spin up the AWS native services will run those alongside the VMware offering and through V Center and the management tools you leverage our API is into cloud wash logs and all of our different management functionality so to get a single view across that integrated landscape so the number one question I had coming into today was why it's Andy Jesse coming to San Francisco so in your own words how would you describe the magnitude of this deal for both AWS and for VMware but certainly you know perhaps the most unique deal we've done we've done a lot of strategic alliances we announced one last year at this time with Accenture that's one step shy of a joint venture that's been a big deal you know we've got a number of others we just announced one with sa P a few weeks ago here in San Francisco around the BW for Hana launch but in comparison in Mississippi you know obviously a big deal and the enterprise adoption has been up - can you comment on any color around uptake with the enterprises you know prior and visa V this announcement I'm sure it's gonna be a lot more this is an on-ramp of three million customers but in general Amazon was already winning in the enterprise correct yeah I mean the fastest-growing segments for us clearly are the enterprise and public sector I want to make sure we conclude public sector in there it's probably the first time in a series of Carlton great great doing a great job they're probably the first time in history of the IT world that the public sector in many cases is moving faster than the private sector it's one of my favorite stories to tell and yeah I noticed on the on the on the region map you had a gov cloud on there that is the public sector cloud so VMware customers in public sector can tap into that is that similar before it is on the roadmap to support our Dell cloud initiative you know I think that'll come in a kind of phase two but absolutely and we're finding - is most of the government's we're working with now government agencies don't require gov cloud they want you want to run in our public cloud because it's equally secure more secure more capacity more flexibility more choice Terry thanks so much for coming on sharing your thoughts here at the exclusive announcement in a nutshell what's the big takeaway for AWS folks customers and VMware customers what's the key message that you'd like this decision here yeah I think you know today we're you know even more relevant than we were yesterday in terms of the ability to actually serve at enterprise customers full suite of workloads faster more innovative and cost-effective awesome great thanks so much appreciate your time John Ferrier here in San Francisco the risk call for the exclusive Amazon Web Services in VMware big partnership thanks for watching [Music]

(upbeat music) >> Hey, welcome back everyone, live coverage here. Re:invent 2022. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. Two sets here. We got amazing content flowing. A third set upstairs in the executive briefing area. It's kind of a final review, day three. We got a special guest for do a re:Invent review. Muddu Sudhakar CEO founder of Aisera. Former multi-exit entrepreneur. Kind of a CUBE analyst who's always watching the floor, comes in, reports on our behalf. Thank you, you're seasoned veteran. Good to see you. Thanks for coming. >> Thank you John >> We've only got five minutes. Let's get into it. What's your report? What are you seeing here at re:Invent? What's the most important story? What's happening? What should people pay attention to? >> No, a lot of things. First all, thank you for having me John. But, most important thing what Amazon has announced is AIML. How they're doubling down on AIML. Amazon Connect for Wise. Watch out all the contact center vendors. Third, is in the area of workflow, low-code, no-code, workflow automation. I see these three are three big pillars. And, the fourth is ETL and ELTs. They're offering ETL as included as a part of S3 Redshift. I see those four areas are the big buckets. >> Well, it's not no ETL to S3. It's ETL into S3 or migration. >> That's right. >> Then the other one was Zero ETL Promise. >> Muddu: That's right. >> Which there's a skeptical group out there that think that's not possible. I do. I think ultimately that'll happen, but what's your take? >> I think it's going to happen. So, it's going to happen both within that data store as well as outside the data store, data coming in. I think that area, Amazon is going to slowly encroach into the whole thing will be part offered as a part of Redshift and S3. >> Got it. What else are you seeing? Security. >> Amazon Connect Amazon Connect is a big thing. >> John: Why is that so important? It seems like they already have that. >> They have it, but what they're doing now is to automate AI bots. They want to use AI bot to automate both agent assist, AI assist, and also WiseBot automation. So, all the contact center Wise to text they're doubling down. I think it's a good competition to Microsoft with the Nuance acquisition and what Zoom is doing today. So, I think within Microsoft, Zoom, and Amazon, it's a nice competition there. >> Okay, so we had Adam's keynote, a lot of security and data, that was big. Today, we had Swami, all ML, 13 announcements. Adam did telegraph to me that he was going to to share the love. Jassy would've probably taken most of those announcements, we know that. Adam shared the love. So, Adam, props to you for sharing the love with Swami and some of those announcements. We had 13. So, good for him. >> Yes. >> And then, we had Aruba with the partners. What's your take on the partner network? A revamp? >> No, I think Aruba did a very good job in terms of partners. Look at these, one of the best stores that Amazon does. Even the companies like me, I'm a startup company. They know how to include the partners, drive more revenue with partners, sell through it, more expansion. So, Amazon is still one of the best for startup to mid-market companies to go into enterprise. So, I love their partnership angle. >> One of the things I like that she said that resonated with me 'cause, I've been working with those teams, is it's unified, clear roles, but together. But, scaling the support for partners and making money for partners. >> That's right. >> That is a huge deal. Big road ahead. She's focused on it. She says, no problem. We want to scale up the business model of the channel. >> Muddu: That's right. >> The resources, so that the ecosystem can make money and serve customers or serve customers and make money. >> Muddu: That's right. And, I think one thing that they're always good is Marketplace. Now, they're doing is outside of market with ISV, co-sell, selling through. I think Amazon really understood that adding the value so that we make money as a partners and they make money, incrementally. So, I think Aruba is doing a very good job. I really like it. >> Okay, final question. What's going on with Werner? What do you expect to hear tomorrow from a developer front? Not a lot of developer productivity conversations at this re:Invent. Not a lot of people talking about software supply chain although Snyk was on theCUBE earlier. Developer productivity. Werner's going to speak to that tomorrow we think. Or, I don't know. What do you think? >> I think he's going talk something called generative AI. Rumored the people are talking about the code will be returned by the algorithms now. I think if I'm Werner, I'm going to talk about where the technology is going, where the humans will not be writing code. So, I think AI is going to double down with Amazon more on the generative AI. He's going to try a lot about that. >> Generative AI is hot. We could have generative CUBE, no hosts. >> Muddu: Yes, that would be good. >> No code, no host >> Muddu: Have an answer, John Software. (both laugh) >> We're going to automate everything. Muddu, great to hear from you. Thanks for reporting. Anything else on the ecosystem? Any observations on the ecosystem and their opportunity? >> So, coming from my side, if I'd to provide an answer, today we have like close to thousand leads that are good. Most of them are financial, healthcare. Healthcare is still one of the largest ones I saw in this conference. Financials, and then, I'm started seeing a lot more on the manufacturing. So, I think supply chain, they were not so. I think Amazon is doing fantastic job with financial, healthcare, and supply chain. >> Where is their blind spot if you had to point that one? >> I think media and entertainment. Media and entertainment is not that big on Amazon. So, I think we should see a lot more of those. >> Yeah, I think they need to look at that. Any other observations? Hallway conversations that are notable that you would like to share with folks watching? >> I think what needs to happen is with VMware, and Citrix desktop, and Endpoint Management. That's their blind spot. So far, nobody's really talking about the Endpoints. Your workstation, laptop, desktop. Remember, that was big with VMware. Nope, that's not a thought of conversation in email right now. So, I think that area is left behind by Amazon. Somebody needs to go after that white space. >> John: And, the audience here is over 50,000. Big numbers. >> Huge. One of the best shows, right? I mean after Covid. It's by far the best show I've seen in this year. >> All right, if you'd do a sizzle reel, what would it be? >> Sizzle reel. I think it's going to be a lot more on, as I said, generative to AI is the key word to watch. And, more than that, low-code no-code workflow automation. How do you automate the workflows? Which is where ServiceNow is fairly strong. I think you'll see Amazon and ServiceNow playing in the workflow automation. >> Muddu, thank you so much for coming on theCube sharing. That's a wrap up for day three here in theCUBE. I'm John Furrier, Dave Vellante for Lisa Martin, Savannah Peterson, all working on Paul Gillan and John Walls and the whole team. Thanks for all your support. Wrapping it up to the end of the day. Pulling the plug. We'll see you tomorrow. (upbeat music)

>>Hello and welcome to the cubes coverage of dr khan 2021. I'm john Kerry, host of the cube agent I own L. C. Ceo and co founder chairman of Morantes cube alumni Adrian Great to see you. Thanks for coming on the cube here for dr khan coverage. Good to see you. Hey >>john nice to see. You gotta do. >>So obviously open source innovation continues. You guys are at the forefront of it. Great to see you what's new Miranda's, give us the update on what's happening. >>Well, I mean what's, what's interesting is we've had one of the best years ever last year and it's very much more continuous, you know, into this year. It's pretty fantastic. We wanted about 160 new customers. Kubernetes is definitely on a tear. We see customers doing bigger and bigger and more exciting things, which is absolutely great to say lens is getting tremendous destruction and I think we have a five fold increase in user base within a year. So it's a lot of fun Right now, customers are definitely pushing the boundaries of what benefits can do. And they want to get the cloud native infrastructure and they want to get there faster and they want to be big and exciting things. And we are so happy to be part of the right. >>You guys are investing in brand new open source solutions for customers. Give us an update on on why and why do they matter for your customer? >>Well, there are, let me unpack this a little bit and there are really two elements to this. One is wide. Open Source and what's new. What matters. So the open source is not new, but open source is being embraced more and more heavily. Bye bye companies everywhere because just a very flexible and cost efficient and highly innovative way to to use innovation and to continue software and a lot of innovation these days is happening the open source communities, which is why it's super exciting for many, many users now. What's new with us? I think there are two really terrific things that we brought the market that we see, get a lot of interest and attention from our customers and create value. One is this idea of delivering, including the infrastructure that's been in space as a service for some of the largest news cases out there. Very large enterprises. We want to have a cloud experience on prime just like they have it in public clouds. That is absolutely fantastic. And that's new and different and very, very exciting. Customs. The second thing that's new and compelling and exciting is the is lands which is this kubernetes, i. e. that has empowered in the meantime, close to 180,000 communities, developers around the world to make it much much easier to take advantage of genetics. So you can think of it as a I. D. And a D. Bugger for anybody who is using genetics on public clouds or on on private infrastructure. That is getting tremendous traction and adoption. >>The interest in kubernetes has been unbelievable. I mean in coop con we saw kubernetes almost become boring in the sense of like it's everyone's using it and there's still now it's enabling a lot more cloud native development. Why does that lens matter what is the benefit? Because that's that's a killer opportunity because kubernetes is actively being adopted. The general consensus is it's delivering the value. >>Yeah. So let me unpack this in two aspects why Wise Bennett is important, why people adopting it and then how it lands adding value on top of it for people who want to use humanity's common. It is tremendously important is because it solves some very, very fundamental problems for developers and operators when building cloud native applications. These are problems that are very essential to actually operating in production but are really unpleasant people to solve, like availability, scalability, reusability of services. So all of that with amenities comes right out of the box and developers no longer have to worry about it. And at the same time, the benefits gives you a standard where you can build apps on public clouds and then move them on prem or build them on trend with them on public clouds and anywhere in between. So it gives a kind of this universal cloud native standard that you as a developer can rely on. And that's extremely valuable for developers. We all remember from the java times when java came online, people really value this idea of white ones run anywhere and that's exactly what benefits does for you in a clown in the world. So it's extremely screaming valuable for people. Um now how does let's add value in this context is also very exciting. So what's happening when you build these applications on a minute? This is that you have many, many services which interact with each other in fairly complex and sometimes unpredictable ways and they're also very much interact with the infrastructure. So you have you can you can imagine kind of this jungle this label building of many different cloud native services working together to build your app, run your app well, how are you going to navigate that and debug that as a developer as you build and optimize your code. So what lengths does it gives you kind of like a real time poppet of pounds of console. You can imagine like you're a fighter pilot in this jet and you have all these instruments kind of coming out here and gives you like this fantastic real time situational awareness. So you can very quickly figure out what is it that you need to do? Either fixing a bug in your application or optimize the performance of the code of making more your rival fixing security issues. And it makes it extremely easy for developers to use. Right? But this tradition has been hard to use complicated, this makes it super fast, easy, have a lot of fun. >>You know, that is really the great theme about this conference this year and your point exactly is developer experience making it simpler and easier. Okay. And innovative is really hits the mark on productivity. I mean and that's really been a key part. So I think that's why I think people are so excited about kubernetes because it's not like some other technologies that had all the setup requirement and making things easier to get stood up and manage. Its huge. So congratulations. A great point, great call out there, great insight. The next question to ask you is you guys have coined the term software factory. Um, yeah, this kind of plays into this. If you have all the services, you can roll them up together with lens and those tools, it's gonna be easier, more productive. So that means it's more software, open source is the software factory to what does that term mean? And how >>it is leverage. Yeah, So here's what it means to us. And so, as you know, today, Soft is being produced by two groups working together to build software, uh, certainly the poor people are the developments, these are the people who create the core functionality. Imagine all the software should be architected and ultimately ship the code right? And maintain the code, but the developers today don't operate just by themselves. They have their psychics, they have their friends for often platform engineering and platform engineers. These are the people who are helping developers, you know, make some of the most important choices as to which platform states we should use, which services they should use, how they should think about governance. How should they think about cloud infrastructure they should use, which open source libraries they should use. How often they should be fresh those libraries and support. So this platform engineers create if you want the factory, the substrate and the automation, which allows these developers to be highly productive. And the analogy want to make is the chip design, right. If you imagine ship design today, you take advantage of a lot of software, a lot of tooling and a lot of free package libraries. You get your job done, you're not doing it by yourself. Uh just wiring transistors together or logical elements. You do it using a massive amount of automation and software, like recent polls. So that's that's what we aim to provide you to customers because what we discovered is that customers, I don't want to be in the business of buildings off the factories, They don't want to be in the business or building platform engineering teams. If they can avoid it, they just do it because they have no choice. But it's difficult for them to do. It's cumbersome, it's expensive. It's a one off. It really doesn't create any unique business value because the platform engineering for a bank is very similar to the platform engineering for, let's say, an oil gas company or the insurance company. Um So we do it for them turnkey as a service. So they can be focusing on what Madison's for that. >>That's a great inside. I love that platform engineering, enabling software developers because, you know, look at sas throwing features together. Being a feature developer is cool. And and and the old days of platform was the full stack developer. And now you have this notion of platform as a service in a way, in this kind of new way. What's different agents? You've seen these waves of innovation? Certainly an open source that we've been covering your career for over a decade uh with more Anderson and open stick and others. This idea of a platform that enables software. What's changed now about this new substrate, you mentioned what's different than the old platform model? >>Uh That's a wonderful question. Uh a couple of things are different. So the first thing that's different is the openness and uh, and that everything is based on open source frameworks as opposed to platforms that we that are highly opinionated and, and I lock in. So I think that's that's a very, very fundamental difference. If you're looking at the initial kind of platform as a service approaches, there were there were extremely opinionated and very rigid and not always open source or just a combination between open source and proprietary. So that's one very big difference. The second very big difference is the emphasis on, and it goes along with the first one, the emphasis on um, multi cloud and infrastructure independence, where a platform is not wedded to a particular stack, where it's a AWS stack or a uh, an Azure stack or the EMR stack. And, and but it's truly a layer above. That's completely open source center. >>Yeah. >>And the third thing that is different is the idea that it's not just the software, the software alone will not do the job, you need the software and the content and the support and the expertise. If you're looking at how platform engineering is done at the large company like Apple, for example, facebook, it's really always the combination of those three things. It's the automation framework, the software, It's the content, the open source libraries or any other libraries that you create. And then it's the expertise that goes all this together and it's being offered to developers to be able to take advantage of this like soft factory. So I think these are the major differences in terms of where we are today was five years ago, 10 years ago. >>Thank you for unpacking that for I think that's a great uh great captures the shift and value. This brings up my next uh question for you because you know, you take that to the next level. DeVOps is now also graduating to a whole another level. The future of devops uh and software engineering more and more around kubernetes and your tools like lens and others managing the point. What is the new role of devops? Obviously Deb see cops but devops is now changing to What's the future of devops in your opinion? >>Well, I believe that there is going to become more and more integrated where our option is going to become uh something like Zero Arts, where are you going to be fully automated And something that's being delivered entirely through software and developers will be able to focus entirely, on, on creating and shipping code. I think that's the major, that's a major change that's happening. The problem is still yet I think to be solved like 100% correctly is the challenge of the last mile. like deploying that code on on on the infrastructure and making sure that he's performing correctly to the sls and optimizing everything. I also believe that the complexity veneta is very powerful by the same time offers a lot of room for complexity. There are many knobs and dials that you can turn in these microservices based architecture. And what we're discovering now is that this complexity kind of exceeds the ability of the individual developer or even a group of developers who constantly optimize things. So I believe what we will see is a I machine learning, taking charge of optimizing a lot of parameters, operating parameters around the applications and that unemployment benefits to ensure those applications perform to the expectations of the illness. And that might mean performing to a very high standard security. Or it might mean performing to a very a low latency in certain geography. Might mean performing too a very low cost structure that you can expect and those things can change over time. Right? So this challenge of operating an application introduction Burnett is substrate is I think dramatically higher than on just additional cloud infrastructure or virtualization. Because you have so many services inter operating with each other and so many different parameters you can set for machine learning and Ai >>I love the machine learning. Ai and I'd love to just get your thoughts on because I love the Zero ops narrative Because that's day one zero ops now that you're here day to being discussed and people are also hyping up, you know, ai Ops and other things. But you know this notion of day to, okay, I'm shipping stuff in the cloud and I have to have zero ops on day 234 et cetera. Uh, what's your take on that? Because that seems to be a hot air that customers and enterprises are getting in and understanding the new wave, writing it and then going, wait a minute pushing new code that's breaking something over there I built months ago. So this is just notion of day to obstacle. But again, if you want to be zero ops, it's gonna be every day. >>Oh, I think you hit the nail on the head. I don't think there's going to be a difference between they want the zero they want and today chair, I think every day is going to be the zero. And the reason for that is because people will be shipping all the time. So your application will change all the time. So the application will always be fresh, so it will always be there zero. So zero ops has to be there all the time. Not just in the birthday. >>Great slogan! Every day is day zero, which means it's going well. I mean there's no no problems. So I gotta ask you the question was one of the big things that's coming up as well as this idea of an SRE not new to devops world, but as enterprises start to get into an SRE role where with hybrid and now edge becoming people not just industrial, um there's been a lot of activity going on a distributed basis. So you're gonna need to have this kind of notion of large scale and 00 ops, which essentially means automation, all those things you mentioned, >>not everyone can >>afford that. Um Not every company can afford to have you know hardcore devops groups to manage and their release process, all that stuff. So how are you helping customers and how do you see this problem being solved? Because this is the accelerant people want, they want the the easy button, they want the zero ops but they just they don't they can't pipeline people fast enough to do this role. >>Yeah. What you're describing is the central differentiator we bring to customers is this idea of as a service experience with guaranteed outcomes. So that's what makes us different versus the traditional enterprise infrastructure software model where people just consume software vendors and system integrate themselves and then are in charge of operations themselves and carrying the technical risks themselves. We deliver everything as a service with guaranteed outcomes through the through cloud native experience. That means guaranteed as L. A. Is predictable outcomes, continuous updates, continuous upgrades. Your on prem infrastructure or your edge infrastructure is going to look and feel and behave exactly like a public cloud experience where you're not going to have to worry about sRS or maintaining the underlying being delivered to you as a service. That's a big part, that's a central part of what makes us different in this space. >>That's great value proposition. Can you just expand give an example of a use case where you guys are doing that? Because this is something that I'm seeing a lot of people looking to go faster. You know speed is good but also it could kill right? So you can break things if you go to a. >>Yeah absolutely. I can give you several examples where we're doing this um very exciting company. So one companies booking dot com booking dot com as a massive on from infrastructure but they also massive public cloud consumer. And they decided they want to bring their own infrastructure to the cloud level of automation, cloud level Sophistication, in other words, they want to have their Aws on brand, they wanted to the old, so eccentric and we're delivering this to them with very high in the cell is exactly as a service turnkey Where there is nothing for them to system in grade or to tune and optimize and operate is being really operating 24/7 guaranteed sls and outcomes by us. Well, combination of soft film expertise that we have at massive scale and to the standards of booking dot com. This is one example, another example and this is a very large company um is the opposite side of the spectrum. You know, because they're not called Mexico super successful. Soft as a service company in the security space, growing in leaps and bounds in very high technical demands and security demands. And they want to have an on prem and cloud infrastructure to complement public clouds. Why? Because security is very important to them. Latency is very important to them. Control the customer experience is very important to them. Cost is very important to them. So for that reason they want that in a network of data centers around the globe And we provide that for them. Turnkey as a service than before seven, which enables them to focus 100% on building their own sense on their the functionality which matters to their customers and not have to worry about the underlying cloud infrastructure in their data centers. All of that gets provided to them has guaranteed about experience to their end users. So this would be the examples where we're doing a >>great service. People are looking for a great job. Adrian, Great to see you. Thank you for coming on the cube here, doc are gone 2021. Um, take a minute to put a plug in for the company. What are you guys up to? What you're looking for hiring? I'll see. You got great tracks with customers, congratulates on lens. Um give a quick update on what's going >>on. Happy happy to give it up in the company. So he, here are the highlights. It was super excited about about what we achieved last year and then what we're up to this year. So last year, what we're proud of is despite Covid, we haven't laid off a single person. We kept all the staff and we hired staff. We have gained 160 new customers, many of them, some of the world's largest and best companies and 300 of all existing customers have expanded their business with us last year, which is fantastic. We also had a very strong financial physical cash flow positive. It was a tremendous, tremendous here for us. Uh, this year is very much growth here for us and we would incredible focus on customer outcomes and customer experience. So what we are really, really digging in super hard on is to give the customers the technology and the services that enable them to get to ship software faster and easier to dramatically increase the productivity of dissolved the development efforts on any cloud infrastructure on crime and public clouds using containers and is and to do that as scale. So we're extremely focused on customer outcomes, custom experience and then the innovation is required to make that happen. So you will continue to see a lot of innovation around lens. So the last better release of lens that we brought about has now a cloud service and have a lot of feature where you can share all your cloud automation with your bodies, in, in uh, in uh, in your development team. So the lens used to be a single user product. Now it's a multi user and team based product, which is fantastic, continues to grow very quickly. And then container cloud as a service. Uh, it's a very big part that we're meeting on the infrastructure side. Are you get quite >>the open source cloud company. Adrian. Congratulations. We've been again following even on the many waves of innovation. Open stack, large scale open source software. Congratulations. >>Uh chris >>Thank you very much for coming on the cube. >>Yeah. >>Okay. Dr khan 2021 cube coverage. I'm john furrier here where the Gi Enel Ceo, co founder and chairman of Miranda's sharing his perspective on the open source innovation with their process and also key trends in the industry that is changing the game in accelerating cloud value cloud scales. Cloud native applications. Thanks for watching. Mhm.

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of VM World 2020 brought to you by VM Ware and its ecosystem partners. Hello and welcome to the Cubes coverage of VMRO 2020 Virtual this The Cube Virtual I'm John for your host, covering all the action for VM World not in person. This year it's virtual, so we're bringing you the virtual interviews remotely. We've got two great guest here. Marc Lemire, senior vice president general manager of the Cloud Services business unit at VM Ware and David Brown is the vice president for two at AWS Amazon Web services. Both Cube alumni's great to see you guys remotely Thanks. Coming on eso i first vm worlds not face to face. Usually it's great event reinvents Also gonna be virtual again. It's, you know, we're gonna get the content out there, but people still gotta know the news is gonna know what's going on. Um, I remember three years ago, I interviewed Pat Kelsey and Andy Jassy in San Francisco on the big announcement of AWS and VM Ware Uh, vm ware on a W s. Really? Since then, what a great partnership Not only has VM where have cleaned up their clarity around cloud. But the business performance mark has been phenomenal. Congratulations. All the data that we're reporting shows customers are leaning into it heavily Great adoption and super happy success. A US congratulations as well for great partnership. Mark three years, Uh, with the industry defining partnership. Ah, lot of people were skeptical. We're on the right side of history, I gotta say, we called >>it. That's right. It's an update. Yeah, No, look, we're super excited. Like you said, It's the third year anniversary of this game changing partnership and look, the relationship could not be stronger right across engineering the product teams to go to market teams really getting stronger and deeper every day. And at the end of the day, you know, of course, what it's about is innovating on behalf of our customers, delivering compelling new capabilities that allow them thio, migrate and modernize. And, you know, look, we're just really pleased with the partnership, right? And I think, as a result of that depth of joint engineering, building and delivering the service together, you know, we're proud to be able to say that it addresses are preferred public cloud partner for the Starbase workloads. >>You know, I remember at the time David talking to Terry Wise Ah, native West Side and Andy, of course on Ragu the architect for this vision of the partnership. And this changed how vm Ware has been doing partnerships on. I want to talk about that because I think that's a great use case of what I call the new cloud native reality that everyone's living in. But before we get there, Mark, there's some news tied around AWS and VM. Where could you take a minute to, uh, share the news around what's going on with VM World 10 0 You got connect. You got all kinds of enhancements. Just the update on the news. >>Yeah, sure. So you know, we continue Thio, listen closely to our customers and continue to deliver them new value, new capabilities and a few things we're gonna highlight at being world. The first is we've heard from many customers, you know, they love the ability to rapidly migrate their visa service workloads to the AWS Cloud and VMC on AWS is really a game changer. From that perspective on dso that continues to be really, really compelling use case for many customers. But what they've also said to us is, Look, it's not just about migrating to the cloud. It's also about migrating and then modernizing. And so, together with AWS, we have really brought together the richest set of tools for our customers to enable them to modernize those applications. Of course, we've talked about before. Customers have access to the full rich set of AWS services on Ben within VM or called on AWS. We're now announcing support for native kubernetes capabilities within VM Ware Cloud in eight of us taking advantage of the VM Ware Tansy Communities, good service. So we're really excited about bringing that that service in particular to our joint customers and then three other kind of key innovation that we're going to be talking about is around networking, right? And as our customer environments get larger and larger and they're looking to create a fairly sophisticated apologies between their on Prem Data Center between multiple VMC and AWS instances and between perhaps multiple native aws vpc s, we've done a lot of work together to really simplify the way that customers can connect all those environments together. Onda, maybe Dave wants toe talk a little about that. >>It did chime in. What's What's the news on your end to? What's the relationship and an update from the Amazon side for VM World? >>Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the partnership has just been incredible working with being where Right, Right? Right from four years ago, when we first started with the idea of what could be a W s and beyond where do together. I think we've seen really deep engineering engagement, but also leadership engagement on support from leadership on both sides was really set. Set us up for the partnership that we have today, which has been phenomenal. You know, Mark was just talking about the transit connect feature that beyond whereas adopting and what you really seen, there is years of innovation on the networking side of the sea to where we've really understood deeply what customers need from a network. Understood the fact that they're trying to recreate some of those large networked apologies that they're doing on premise on, then trying to support them in a cloud way of supporting them in a cloud about, like, way. And so, you know, transit gateways to service under the hood that we released about two years ago. It reinvent. And so what we've been doing with being where he's working out. What is Transit Gateway mean within the VM Ware environment? And so really bringing customers that that rich connectivity that they need? You know, whether it's between the BBC's between the VM Ware environments, even back to on Prem or between regions on DSO. That's what transit connect now on being where it's gonna be utilizing and bringing to customers we're pretty excited about. You know what that means for our customers? >>You know, one of the trends I see coming out all the announcements. David, I want to get your thoughts on it because we talked briefly a few months ago, uh, for your summit virtual. But I want you to kind of put it in context of VM Ware because you're seeing virtualization of physical things. You know, Nick's with Project Monterey and all that stuff with within video and software. You see to you guys have seen this vision not just compute, but you talk about networking. You know, you have the really the first time this convergence of physical own software virtual and This is not new to you guys. I know this is the premise of Amazon Cloud. First, you have the building blocks as three NBC too. But now a slew of other services. But this trend is gonna continue. Certainly with covert and work at home, there's mawr need firm or compute more different kinds of compute. You got the physical layer from the network of the devices. This isn't gonna go away. I mean, I would just need some interviews about Space Force, and they're talking about software to find, um, devices you can't do break fix in the space. So you know all this is gonna be done with software and this idea of the physical virtual coming together I mean, I know I love the Virtual Cube were not in person, which we were. But this virtualization trend around the hardware this is this'll is all about the sea, but the sea spinning for years. How does that relate >>to be inward customer? So, I mean, I think the VM ware customers experience which realization right long before ec2 was around as well. When being we're back in the day with being workstation, uh, it's it's kind of central to what they've been able to do, you know, being able to virtualized environments, being able to stand up environments ready very quickly on a physical machine is what the English board for the customer, Easy to started in a similar place. You know, the strength of the C two is being able to get a B m in a few minutes. Andi, you know, we've just grown the what we can support in a virtualized world. So you think about where we started with very simple machines, you know, today is supporting things like HPC and and advanced. You know, accelerators like GP use. And if p g A s and so we've already pushed the virtual world now, interestingly enough, you know, Vienna is obviously doing the same thing with their hyper visor. You know, many, many happy customers there. The really interesting thing it was through the innovation that we were doing on the easy to side to work out. How do we really get the most out of virtualization? Historically, virtualization is being played with things like jitter and just performance. You couldn't really get the network performance there with CPU would stall and those are sort of the old issues. The cloud in the innovation we've been doing is largely gotten rid of those. And so it's actually almost the the the ability to remove the virtualization from easy to. That really was the ingredient that enabled us to allow VM Ware to run on this. And so that's where it all started. Back in late 2016 we started to work with my team saying, You know, we've actually built the ability through our nitro system, um, to not require our virtualization layer. And then we could replace that virtualization with the VM Ware virtualization layer and that that set us up for what we have today, right? That that made VM ware on AWS a reality that gave the VM Ware customer you know, the full VM ware virtualization support, which is what the applications have been. Both Paul, that's what they've really come. Thio love. I don't want to change all of that when they moved to the cloud and so being able to move those workloads to the cloud for being where you know on on AWS and and get the benefit of great hardware design together with the great opera visor from being where obviously, it's a virtual the end of the day with a lot of innovation that we need to make him that >>mark. I wanna get your thoughts on this because I remember when we again years ago when we covered it again on the right side of history of the prediction, we said It's gonna be a great thing, afraid of us. And the end where some of the other commentary was at that time was Oh, my God. VM was lost at the capitulated Amazon is gonna suck all the thousands and thousands of VM where customers into the cloud and they're gonna eat him up in Vienna. Where is gonna be sitting there? Uh, you know, inside of the road. Okay. Not the case. Your business performance has been exceptional. Okay? The customers have been resonating with the offering. It's been a win win. Can you talk about the business momentum and how this continues to go? Because again, everyone got it wrong on that side. This has been exactly how you guys had heated up. I mean, a little bit here, and they're not exactly, But from a business perspective, it hit the mark. What's your thoughts? >>Yeah. No. Look, we've been incredibly pleased that the customer adoption that we've seen for the service, um, in fact, you know, the total workload count on the service has increased by over 140% versus this time last year, right? So clearly, customers are adopting the service at a large scale on growing rapidly. But I think you sort of feel that killed that back a little bit, right? It's It's really driven by three use cases and the value that we're able to deliver the customers right? And so if you're a customer, that's gotta be severe based workload in your own data center, and you want to move to the AWS Cloud. You know the fastest, lowest cost lowest Chris Way to move that workload is using VM Ware Cloud on AWS, right? And so it's that use case. It's powering a lot of that consumption. Another interesting use case that Xdrive in a lot of demand and that we continue to invest and expand is disaster recovery, right? So there's some customers that still want to run some more clothes in their own data centers, but they'd like to build leverage the public cloud as a target for disaster recovery. And you think about it you're talking about, you know, Cloud delivered as a service and the elasticity and all of those benefits. Those really playoff strongly in the d r use case where you Onley really want to spend up that capacity in the scenario where you actually need it, right in the case of a natural disaster. And so VM were recently acquired a company called Atrium and we're using that technology to enable a new service we call VM Ware. Cloud D are on top of the VMC on AWS offering, and this is a really powerful capability because it allows our customers to significantly reduce the cost of disaster recovery by taking advantage of AWS is low cost s three storage, combined with some unique capabilities in the day trip service that allows us to store the V M. D. K. Is very cost effectively on the next three storage. And then, in the case of a disaster, we can spin up those hosts. You know, they've talked about the nitro host. I've been spin up those bare metal host with the being more hyper visor on it and automatically restart those workloads without requiring any. VM conversion is because, of course, it's all all these fear based, right? So you know, it's so we're really pleased with the business performance, but you know, sort of behind that, of course, is the value that we can deliver to our joint customers together. >>You know, the integration thing is interesting again. I think the success is that there's a partnership at the highest levels and trickles down into engineering. David, talk about what's next for AWS because, you know, after cloud, you've got cloud native integrations. They're gonna be needed across more partners and more customers. Um, but they don't wanna do the heavy lifting, right? So So if I'm a customer like, hey, you know what? I just want Mawr Cloud scale. I want more cloud capabilities, but I don't want to do all this integration. How does how does Amazon view that conversation? Because again, that's one of the things that every interview, every reinvent every time I talk to Andy and the team. It's undifferentiated, heavy lifting what our customers asking for free from from you guys. VM, where customers and What's the What's your thoughts on this? What do you guys thinking about right now? >>Absolutely. I think market head on a couple of key points there as well or at the customer in this case, off. I have a workload today that I run in my data center or running a cola facility, whatever it might be. And I run it for many years, Um, in many cases working with customers in industries like healthcare and finance. You know, where they've actually had these thes applications qualified or certified? I'm to actually one on that hardware. And so, you know, requiring them to move to a different hyper visor is obviously a ready they'd lift and may slow down the ultimate migration to the cloud. Um And so having vm ware cloud on AWS and the ability to say to those customers, you know, just bring your application and you'll workload and and honestly the benefit of the entire ecosystem that VM Ware provides and come and enjoy that on AWS and burst into aws eso that's just been enormously beneficial for our in customer, For AWS is probably aware. I think that's the thing that really makes the partnership incredibly strong. And from there, you know, these customers can pivot. And so one of the things that we've been doing together with Vienna, where is ongoing innovation? Right. So we recently just launched, um, support for our I three n uh storage instance type, which offers up to 50% discount storage per gig with VM ware. And there's a lot that went into that behind the scenes to make sure that that instance type is perfectly tuned for what VM were needed for their end customer. We're very excited to get that out. There are many, many customers so excited about the benefit that that brings to them, right? So they're getting all the benefit of AWS innovation while they keep the benefits that they've been enjoying on the VM Ware side. Um, and you know, that speaks to the largest sort of approach that AWS has taken in in several industries across several industries. Right being where, I think is probably the best example of that. But if you look at many other areas like our networking products, customers will often come to us and say, you know, I love using a certain type of load balance. So I love using this firewall. Um, you know, within my environment. And we have great partnerships of all those companies to say if your customer, while joint customer, wants to use whatever appliance, whatever application, you know, we have a full market place full of thousands of applications that are all certified to run on us. We want to make sure we can meet those customers where they are and simplify the immigration story for them as much as we can. >>All right, So I gotta put you guys on the spot. Mark will start with you, but you can't get the same answer. Um, to the same question. The question is, what are the customers most happy with with the partnership from a feature perspective? What's the one? What? What would you say, Mark, um is the big Ah ha. This really is amazing. I'm so happy because of this feature capability. >>Yeah, yeah, I mean, a little bit back to the discussion we're having before, but I think you know the killer use case Really for the service today is that cloud migration use case I was talking about before. And if you think about what it might have taken them previously. Right? Uh, you know, expensive time consuming. Um, you know, it requires changes to their environment. In some cases, with with VM or cloud on AWS, we could take the cloud migration that would previously been taken them perhaps years, millions or tens of millions of dollars. And we can shrink that down toe literally months, right. We have some customers like m i t. That migrated hundreds of applications literally over a weekend. Right. And we're able to do that because it's the same core enterprise Class V, and where capabilities of the customers already optimized their application to run on in their own data centers that now we've enabled on AWS as a cloud service so that that cloud migration use case kind of combined with the fact that we're, um that were delivered to them as a service in the AWS cloud. I think is, uh, you know, one of the one of the use cases that a lot of customers find extremely attractive. >>Alright, David, your turn from an M. A w s perspective. What are people happy with you for on this partnership? What praises? Are you getting some your way When someone says, Hey, man, this partners has been great. Amazon really is awesome for this. What would you say to that? >>Eso, you know, watch book about the migration I was going to choose sort of, You know, once they're in aws, um, the benefits of the power brakes writes the ability to scale on the mind. E think one of the great things about the record in AWS that VM Ware did is already built it as a cloud native service. And so, you know, the customers are able to provision additional capacity very easily. We have that capacity available on AWS, and so they're able to meet any sort of unexpected demand of scale. Um, and then together with the breadth of services that we have on a diverse is Well, you know, you and we've we thought very carefully about how being were customer would want to consume those and to make sure that the whole system set up to allow that to happen. And so allowing them to to broaden what they're using over time, is there. Engineers and teams find other services that allow them to innovate faster and, you know, bold more interesting applications so that it integrates incredibly well between AWS and VMware and customers benefit from that. >>I wanna ask you guys, um, or in the industry side, um, to comment on cloud native, um, mainly because one we cover it into it's kind of important trend. Um, recently, snowflake went public with the largest i p on the history of the of Wall Street, and it's an enterprise company. Okay, Um, and I was using that as an example because actually being where was the second most popular, uh, Hypo happens to be another enterprise company if and I was commenting on this, and I want to get your reaction to it And that is, is that if you look at the mega trend that's going on now, of all the things people talk about, it's the cloud native That's the most interesting, because this is all the value. If you look at the modern applications all the way down to the networking, everything in between. It's all about cloud native, And it's not just about cloud public cloud. It's not about It's an operating model when we talk about that. But Cloud native is the big wave that people are on. And if you're on it, your modern. This is not just hand waving. It's legit. I mean, you're seeing benefits of it. You're seeing speed, time to value all the things that people talk about, it, the events. Could you guys comment on why Cloud native is so important today and why customers and developers should be really thinking through what that is for them. Um, David will start with you. >>Absolutely. So for us part native really means, you know, have you built your application in a way that takes advantage of the benefits of the cloud? And so are you able to scare the application horizontally? Are you able, Thio? You know, building away That's redundant Across multiple data centers. Are you able to utilize services that are provided by, you know, aws, the cloud provider Thio to not have your teams build that And so what it ultimately means is you're able to spend more time focused on on building stuff that really matters. You know, if your application So you mentioned Snowflake, you know there are a great AWS customer work very closely with them and and they're able Thio, have us around a lot of the infrastructure, all the infrastructure for them in the power. And they can really focus on building an absolutely incredible data, whereas in solution for their end customer and we innovate very closely with them. And so that's really what it means, you know. And I think organizations that have gotten themselves there ready get a lot of benefit. They're able to innovate faster. They're able Thio deliver more to the end customer. You know, we spent a lot of time with companies that you wouldn't say a cloud native today and as a cloud provider, azi exciting as it is to support the cloud native customer, it's also incredibly important that we find a way to support the company. That's on a journey towards adopting the cloud, right? They've got a long history. Maybe they've been around for many, many, many years. Andi, I've got a large application stack that they need to move. And so that's where our migration programs really support customers. You need to bring non card native applications and then we're able to work with them over time to make them, you know, more cloud native and get a lot of those benefits. And so it's a journey that I think many of companies on. Some started there, and some have a way to get their differently. Has a lot of benefit. >>Isn't Snowflake really in Just a example of value creation? I mean, it's not about that. They're on Amazon. You're happy about that. But it shows that you don't have to go a certain way. If you create value, speed, scale speaks for itself. So that's just that could be an enterprise. That could be startup. That could be the Cube. It could be anybody, right? I mean, don't you see it that way? >>Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, they had a great use case that a customer need. It's in a really interesting area, obviously dealing with big data. And so I think you know, there's there's really no limit there, >>Mark. You guys are in the modern app. That's what you're hearing. It's one of the things that people gonna wanna come out of co vid. They're gonna wanna have a growth strategy. Cloud native. Why is it important? And what's your take on this? What's your reaction to the cloud native being the big wave? >>Yeah, I mean, I think. I think Dave said it. You know very well. I mean, when I talked to customers, you know, regardless of where they are in that journey, they all have some form of digital transformation agenda. Right? And at the end of the day, they wanna deliver better services to their end customers because they know that's what different is going to differentiate them. Or they want a better empower their employees, right? And as part of trying to deliver that value to their customers, their employees, you know, they want to focus their time and energy on the things that really differentiate them. Right? And, you know, for many of them that that means, you know, they don't wanna have to worry about, you know, upgrading some infrastructure software, right? That's not that's not delivering value to their to their customers. And so, you know, I think as they go down that journey, you know, we're really pleased to be ableto partner. What they did you ask to be able to create these, uh, you know, these powerful platforms together between VM ware and AWS that really deliver a lot of value to customers and allow them to focus on what's important their business, right? And, you know, by bringing together those enterprise class VM, or capabilities that hundreds of thousands of customers trust for their most mission critical workloads. Combining that with eyes, they have talked about the possibility of agility, the scalability of the dust cloud and then sort of, you know, not just those existing workloads, but also enabling a rich set of new services those customers can take advantage of to modernize. You know, whether it's VM Ware services like I talked about before with our native kubernetes capability built into BMC or whether it's the you know, hundreds and growing portfolio abated bus services, you know, giving them all, giving them the power of that full toolkit as a service so they can focus on building value on top. I mean, that's e think, really they want an equation. But that's why so many customers are moving down that path together with us. >>Well, congratulations. I want to say to you because David Lynch has been digging into the buyer behavior data, looking at the what the budget projections gonna be and VM ware on AWS has been strongly performing, and it's doing really well. Congratulations. And David. Great to have you back on. And you got reinvent less than 60 days away. Can you give us a little taste, teaser and taste of what you got going on? I know you can't reveal, but what kind of generally we're gonna be seeing at reinvent, uh, with E c two and your team >>absolutely reinvents a little different this year. It's It's obviously virtual on, so we're pretty excited about that. We think it will bring a new flavor. And so there's a lot of planning going on both in terms of product delivery. It was a It was a great time of year for us as we finish up a lot about big releases aimed at reinvent, then obviously working on content and presentations. And so, you know, a lot of interesting stuff for customers to think about is that >>they're not revealing anything. You just you know. Okay, you're gonna have some announcements. I'm sure you see two. That's a big announcements. Exactly. Hiding the ball, as they say. David Brown, vice president of Easy to it. Amazon Web services. AWS, Markle, Omar s v P. And GM. A cloud Service business unit at VM Ware. Um, great partnership. Congratulations. We'll be following it. Thanks for coming. I appreciate it. Thank >>you very much. >>Okay, I'm John. For with the Cube. We're here in Palo Alto. Remote for the Cube. Virtual for VM World 2020. Virtual couldn't be face to face. We're doing our best with our cube virtual to get you the content. Thanks for watching.

from our studios in the heart of Silicon Valley Palo Alto California this is a cute conversation hi and welcome to the cube Studios for another cube conversation where we go in-depth with thought leaders driving innovation across the tech industry I'm your host Peter Burris one of the dominant considerations that every business faces today is how do they work through the complex outcomes associated with cybersecurity as they find new ways to use their data and apply it to new classes of customer and market problems this is not a small problem especially given that so many bad actors out there are now also seeing a company's data as a potential enormous source of value now to see what businesses are doing to try to achieve those complex outcomes while at the same time lowering their overall security risk we've got a great conversation first off welcoming back Eric Herzog who's the chief marketing officer and vice president of worldwide storage channels from IBM storage Eric welcome back to the queue yeah thank you love to come and Eric you bought with you a really distinguished individual kaeleen Sanchez as vice president of IBM worldwide Systems lab service and some technical universities Colleen welcome back to the cube thank you so let's get the quick update where are we in this world of the outcomes of businesses seeking let's start with you what what our business is trying to do with cybersecurity today protect data and ensure that we provide a certain level of security levels to enable the overall end-to-end protection holistically so it's really important that we enable a full stack hence the strong partnership with Eric and I too and also the global team to pull together solutions then enable data protection so let's talk about the reasons why it's becomes that much more acute or that needs to become that much more acute because we've got we've got the reality that everybody's going to get penetrated in the next year of any size that it takes a long time often to figure out that you have been penetrated you've got new types of attacks the old ones of just kind of know phishing and whatnot while still prevalent so a problem now we've got ransomware and we've got a lot of new types of actions that bad people are taking what are some of the things that we're trying to protect ourselves from these days so the B's thing is you mentioned ransomware it's like this idea that we want to protect and also act as a worm so to speak to provide an abstraction layer to enable protection holistically of any given solution because data can be everywhere nowhere so yeah there's discussions about it's the new oil it's not the new oil necessarily it's pervasive it's everywhere so our data from our perspective can be in any device any media type and we need to figure out how to protect it at its core and so you see it as a full stack that just means we have to go lower in layers in order to protect the overall data so kind of what you're saying is that the more the security is closer to the data the more the data itself is secure the less reliant we are on policy which can lead to human error or human mistakes which could allow folks come in I got that right you're correct it's smart data it's this idea that it's multiple pieces and multiple owners of a maker checker policy that keeps the overall solution accountable that doesn't diminish the need for policy but Eric it certainly raises the specter or the spectrum of the fact that increasingly the smart folks within a business that are insuring or trying to diminish risk and ensuring assurance of the data need to start looking at how storage or the role that storage plays in this overall security framework I got that right yeah if you think about a traditional company their approach is we need to get security software to keep the bad guys out and they mean it's the Chiricahua for when we are breached to track them down talking to several CIOs at even midsize companies let alone the fortune 500 is sometimes it takes them days even weeks as you said to know they've even been training penetrated yet track it down while they're doing that imagine someone coming into your house and the police don't show up for 10 minutes even though your alarm went off and by the time the police go your house is totally empty and IBM stores you make sure that that doesn't happen it's as if everything is bolted down everything is locked and if they do steal something for example it's say write once read many technology they can't really use it right because it's wormed they can't change it so it's almost as if your TV required a fingerprint and even if they stole it they couldn't use your TV and that's the kind of thing I want to do is be pervasive and get enterprises as well as even small and mean courts to realize an overall cyber resiliency and security strategy involves keeping the bad guys out email will track them down but when they are in the house making sure everything is secure and essentially nothing can be stolen or utilized of your incredibly valuable data so using your metaphor of making sure the TV is bolted down or whatever is is bolted down that's however doesn't diminish the business's ability to move the TV if they want to if they have the rights and privileges to do so so let's talk about how the new tooling of storage is being bought together with some of the new services approaches to achieve these complex outcomes how is IBM looking at storage and storage related technologies as a as a foundation for achieving the new outcomes that the businesses want so for my services perspective we go in and partner with our core technologies within the storage portfolio to enable like something like bare metal to enable the armor around the overall solution we work to with the client to understand their pain points etc and how we optimize the solution to substantiate that we provide highly resilient flexible access to data but at the same time it's protected now this is a fast changing world and it's there's there's an enormous expertise both on the good side and the bad side obviously you've got you've got a development background talk a little bit about how IBM is relying on customers relying on universities other sources of deep knowledge about security issues and then translating that into IP that then finds itself into places like Eric storage portfolio so so we have processes like for instance the technical universities so we have discussions with an extended set of worldwide engineers and scientists to talk about specific important pain points related to cyber security so when we obtain that data we provide the training we collect information and then we provide or funnel that back into Eric's portfolio from an IBM storage perspective so Eric look you've you're an old man for an act as amaya as am i and so that is one area where security has not been an afterthought it's not been that separate how to what degree has that relationship between security and data and storage of permeated the way that you think about solutions solution directions and engaging your customers with your value propositions so one of the big things we've done is make sure that our security is across the entire portfolio primary data flash disk secondary data disk or tape and in fact as you know IBM is known for its hybrid multi cloud storage technology capable of easily and transparently tearing out to multiple public cloud providers when that data is in flight sure site better be encrypted so we've made sure that where this ransom where malware protection data encryption rest across the entire portfolio right once read many technology things like FIPS 140 - - which is a very important federal specification around security malware and ransomware protection with air gapping both to tape but also to cloud so we've made sure that the security aspect of storage is pervasive primary storage secondary storage cloud storage whatever you're doing your storage will always be secure so when they do breach the wall and they track the bad guy down as they're rooting around your file your block your object storage it's secure and they can't get anybody from the data you still can but they can't steal that data from you and that's a critical capability of spreading it beyond just the mainframe we have great technology with our new safeguard copy product we brought out last year that does incredible things to secure data but in fact we make sure that all sorts of security and resiliency technologies from an IBM perspective are spread even into our lowest end product our store wise 50 10 e has full data rest encryption encryption and flight so all those technologies everyone from the very entry products all the way up to our high-end product the DES family and everything in between yeah well one of the things about digital business is we're discovering new ways of leveraging data and unanticipated avenues to try to generate additional business and one of the things we've seen as we talk to customers is that increasingly that means that the weakest link in your security chain is going to be it's going to be instrumental at defining your overall security policy so treating security is an option is because you can secure something over here is increasingly difficult as you find new ways of integrating data so how is IBM helping to get customers to see that so I would say two points from lab services perspective as well as our business partners we we take on a consultative discussion or partnership so we learn from our clients and partners and users as much as they learn from us and we provide offerings to really explore that full stack to make that data smarter as we discussed before so digital business is happening it's transforming very rapidly IBM talks about the rise of the incumbents as they bring some of these digital native capabilities into their business I'm going to ask each of you for the one thing that you think is going to be most important for customers to think about this relationship between data storage and security Eric I'll start with you what do you think is the one thing that people need to start thinking more about over the course next year storage is not an afterthought in your secure strategy killing how about you co-create with our end users to enable the full and and prediction as you mentioned before and as you co-create don't forget that storage is intrinsic to whether or not it's secure or not great conversation thank you both for being here Eric Herzog's the chief marketing officer and vice president worldwide storage channels at IBM storage Colleen Sanchez is the vice president IBM worldwide Systems lab services and technical universities once again thank you both for being here and talking about this crucially important area thank you for having us thank you alright and once again I'm Peter Burroughs and until next time this has been a cube conversation [Music] you

>> live from Boston, Massachusetts. It's the Cube covering AWS reinforce 2019. Brought to you by Amazon Web service is and its ecosystem partners. >> Okay, welcome back. It was two cubes. Live coverage in Boston, Massachusetts, for Amazon Web services reinforces A W s, his first inaugural conference around security, cloud security and all the benefits of security vendors of bringing. We're here with a man who runs the marketplace and more. Dave McCann Cube, alumni vice president of migration, marketplace and control surfaces. That's a new tail you were that you have here since the last time we talked. Lots changed. Give us the update. Welcome to the Cube. >> Great to be back, ma'am. Believe it's seven months of every event. >> Feels like this. Seven years. You know, you've got a lot new things happening. >> We do >> explain. You have new responsibility. You got the marketplace, which we talked about a great product solutions. What else do you have? >> So we've obviously been expanding our service portfolio, right? So either us is launching. New service is all the time. We have a set of service is a road in the migration of software. So I run. No, the immigration Service's team and interesting. We were sitting in Boston, and that's actually headquartered 800 yards down the road. So there's a set of surfaces around the tools to help you as a CEO. Move your applications onto the clothes. Marketplace is obviously where we want you to find short where you need to buy. And then once you get into the topic of governance, we had one product called Service Catalog and reinvent. We announced a new product. That was a preview called Control. Yesterday we went to G A full availability off control, Terror and Control term service catalog together are in the government space, but we're calling them control service is because it's around controlling the access off teams to particular resources. So that's control service. >> What people moving into the cloud and give us a sense of the the workload. I know you see everything but any patterns that you can see a >> lot of patterns and merging and migration, and they are very industry specific. But there are some common patterns, so you know we're doing migrations and frozen companies were weighed and professional service is run by. Todd Weatherby is engaged in hundreds of those migrations. But we also have no over 70 partners that we've certified of migration partners. Migration partners are doing three times as many migrations as our old professional service is. Team are doing so in collection. There's a lot going on there, one of the common patterns. First of all, everybody is moved a Web development other websites have done. They're all running on the AWS know what they're doing is they're modernizing new applications. So the building in Europe or bring enough over moving onto containers. So it was a lie that ran on a sever server on. As they move into the clothes, they're gonna reshape the throw away. Some of the court brief the court up into micro service is on. Deploy out, Let's see on E. C s, which is continuing. There's a lot of application organization, and then on the migration side, we're seeing applications clearly were migrating a lost a lot of ASAP. So the big partners like Deloitte and Accenture are doing a C P migrations, and we've done a lot of ASAP migrations. And then there are other business applications are being moved with particular software vendors. You know there's a company here in Boston called Pegasystems. They do a world leading workflow platform. We've worked with Pagan, and we have migrated loss of paga warped floors in dozens of paying customers up on the float. >> You innovated on the marketplace, which is where people buy so they can contract with software. So now you got moving to the cloud, buying on the cloud, consuming the cloud and then governing it and managing that aspect all under one cohesive unit. That's you. Is that good? >> Yeah, it's a good way to think about it. It's a san of engineering teams with Coleman purpose for the customer. So you know, one of the things we do AWS is we innovate a lot, and then we organize the engineering teams around a common customer needs. So we said, above all of the computer stories service is on. We pay attention to the application layer. We described the application, So if you think of a migration service is says, I've actually got a service called Discovery, I crawl over your servers and I find what you have way. Then what we do is we have a tool that says, Are you gonna bring and move the till. So you have to build a business case. We just bought a company in Canada called TSA Logic. They had a Super Two for building a business case that said, what would this absolutely running with either of us. >> So is the need of the business case. What's the courtney that you guys have focused on? What was that? >> So, interestingly, we run more Windows Server and the clothes when Microsoft. So you actually have to business keys here. So many windows servers are running on print. What does it look like when a run on either the U. S. And T s so logic? Really good, too. And we find our customers using it. That says, Here's your own prim Windows server configuration with an app on run the mortal What would it look like when it runs on AWS? >> But why would you just do that with a spreadsheet? What? What is the T s so logic do that you couldn't do especially >> well? First of all, you want to make a simple too Somebody has to go run a spreadsheet. They've turned it into a tool that a business years Ercan used a sales person you could use on. They've built on top of a database. So it's got a rich set of choices. You are richer than you put in. A special with a U IE is intuitive, and you're gonna learn it in 20 minutes. I'm not gonna have you made up >> this date in their best practice things like that that you can draw a library >> of what's going down, and it keeps the data store of all the ones we've done. So we're turning that into two. Were giving Old Toller solution architect. >> Well, you got a good thing going on with the marketplace. Good to see you wrapping around those needs there. I gotta ask for the marketplace. Just give us the latest stats. How many subscriptions air in the marketplace these days? What's the overall number in the marketplace? It's >> pretty exciting. Way decided just at San Francisco to announce that we now have over 1,000,000 active subscriptions in the marketplace, which is a main boggling number on its own 1,000,000 subscriptions. Ice of Scrape. Within those subscriptions, we've got over 240 foes and active accounts, you know, and the audience doors you could be an enterprise with 100 cases and in an enterprise. What we typically see is that there are seven or eight teams that are buying or using software, so we'll have seven or eight accounts that have the right to subscribe. So you could be a one team and you're in another team you're buying B I tools. You're buying security tools. So those accounts on what? We're announcing the show for the first time ever. Its security is we have over 100,000 security subscriptions. That's a while. That's a big number. Some companies only have 100 customers, and the market, please. Our customers are switched on 100,000 security. So >> many product listings is that roughly it's just security security. At 300 >> there's over 100 listings. Thing is a product with a price okay on a vendor could be Let's see Paolo off networks or crowdstrike or trains or semantic or McAfee or a brand new company like Twist located of Israel. These companies might have one offer or 20 offers, so we have over 800 offers from over 300. Vendors were having new vendors every week. >> That's the next question. How many security app developers are eyes? Do you have over 300? 300? Okay. About 100. Anyway, I heard >> this morning from Gartner that they believe that are over 1000 security vendors. So I'm only 30% done. I got a little work >> tonight. How >> do you >> govern all this stuff? I was a customer. Sort of Make sure that they're in compliance. >> Great question. Steven Smith yesterday was talking about governance once she moved things on the clothes. It's very elastic. You could be running it today, not running a tomato, running it in I d running in Sydney. So it's easy to fire up running everywhere. So how did the governance team of a company nor watch running where you know, you get into tagging, everything has to be tagged. Everything has to have a cord attached to it. And then you do want to control who gets to use what I may have bought about a cuter appliance. But I don't know that I gave you rates to use it, right, so we could have border on behalf of the company. But I need to grant you access. So we launched a couple of years ago. Service catalog is our first governance to and yesterday we went into full release over new to call the control tower. >> Right. What you announced way reinvents >> preview. And yesterday we went to Jenny. What control does is it Natural Owes me to set up a set of accounts. So if you think of it, your development team, you've got David Kay and tested and the product ain't your brand new to the company. I'm a little worried. What, you're going to get up. You >> don't want to give him the keys to the kingdom, >> so I'm actually going to grant you access to a set of resources, and then I'm gonna apply some rules, or what we call God reels is your brand. You you haven't read my manual, you're in the company. So I'm gonna put a set of God reels on you to make sure that you follow our guide length >> Just training. And so is pressing the wrong button, that kind of thing. So I gotta ask you I mean, on the buying side consumption. I heard you say in a talk upstairs on Monday. You have a buyer, buyer, lead, engineering teams and cellar Let engineering, which tells me that you got a lot of innovation going on the marketplace. So the results are obviously they mention the listings. But one of the trends that's here security conference and it was proper is ecosystems importance in monetization. So back in the old days, Channel partners were a big part of the old computer industry. You're essentially going direct with service listings, which is great. How does that help the channel? Is there sinking around channel as a buyer opportunity? How do you How does that work with the market? Is what your thinking around the relationship between the scale of a simplicity and efficiency, the marketplace with the relationships the channel partners may have with their customers? And how do you bridge that together? What's the thinking >> you've overstayed? Been around a long time? >> Uh, so you have 90 Sydney? Well, the channels have been modernizes the nineties. You think about a >> long time. It's really interesting when we conceived Market please candidly. Way didn't put the channel in marketplace, and in retrospect, that was a miss. Our customers are big customers or small customers. Trust some of the resellers. Some resellers operates surely on price. Some resellers bring a lot of knowledge, even the biggest of the global 2000 Fortune 100. They have a prepared advisor. Let's take a company record. You often got 700 security engineers that are blue chip companies in America trusts or they buy the software the adoptive recommends. So mark it, please really didn't accommodate for Let's Pick another One in Europe, it would be computer center. So in the last two years we've dedicated the data separate engineering team were actually opened up. A team in a different city on their sole customer is a reseller. And so we launch this thing called Consulting Partner Private offer. And so now you're Palo. Also, for your trained, you can authorize active or serious or s h I to be the re sailor at this corporation, and they can actually negotiate the price, which is what a role resellers do. They negotiate price in terms, so we've actually true reseller >> write software for fulfillment through the marketplace. Four partners which are now customers to you now so that they could wrap service is because that's something we talk to. People in the Channel number one conversation is we love the cloud. But how do I make money and that is Service is right. They all want to wrap Service's around, So okay, you guys are delivering this. Is that my getting that right? You guys are riding a direct link in tow marketplace for partners, and they could wrap service is around there, >> will you? Seeing two things? First of all, yes. We're lowering the resale of to sell the software for absolutely. So you re sailor, you can quote software you build rebuild for you so that I become the billing partner for a serious or a billing partner for active on active can use marketplace to fulfill clothes software for their customers. Dan Burns to see you about pretty happy. You crossed the line into a second scenario, which is condone burns attached. Service is on. Clearly, that's a use case we hear usually would we hear use cases way end up through feeling that a little, little not a use case I have enabled, but we've done >> what you're working on It. We've had what the customer. How does the reseller get into the marketplace? What kind of requirements are there. Is it? Is it different than some of your other partners, or is it sort of a similar framework? >> They have to become an approved resale or so First of all, they have to be in a peon partner. I mean, we work tightly with a p N e p M screens partners for AWS. So Josh Hoffman's team Terry Wise, his team, whole part of team screen. The reseller we would only work with resellers are screened and approved by the PM Wants the AP en approved way have no set up a dedicated program team. They work with a reseller with trained them what's involved. Ultimately, however, the relationship is between Splunk in a tree sailor, a five and a three sailor named after a tree sailor or Paulo trend or Croat straight. So it's up to the I S V to tail us that hey, computer centers my reseller. I don't control that relationship. A fulfillment agent you crow strike to save resellers, and I simply have to meet that work so that I get the end customer happy. >> So your enabler in that instance, that's really no, I'm >> really an engine, even team for everybody engineer for the Iast way, engineer for the buyer. And they have to engineer for the re. So >> you have your hands in a lot of the action because you're in the middle of all this marketplace and you must do a lot of planning. I gotta ask you the question and this comes up. That kind of put on my learning all the Amazon lingo covering reinvent for eight years and covering all the different events. So you gotta raise the bar, which is an internal. You keep innovating. Andy Jassy always sucks about removing the undifferentiated heavy lifting. So what is the undifferentiated heavy lifting that you're working toe automate for your customers? >> Great questions. Right now there's probably three. We'll see what the buyer friction is, and then we'll talk about what the sale of friction is. The buyer frustration that is, undifferentiated. Heavy lifting is the interestingly, it's the team process around choosing software. So a couple of customers were on stage yesterday right on those big institutions talked about security software. But in order for an institution to buy that software, there are five groups involved. Security director is choosing the vendor, but procurement has to be involved. Andre. No procurement. We can't be left out the bit. So yesterday we did. The integration to Cooper is a procurement system. So that friction is by subscribing marketplace tied round. Match it with appeal because the p O is what goes on the ledgers with the company. A purchase order. So that has to be a match in purchase order for the marketplace subscription. And then engineers don't Tidwell engineers to always remember you didn't tag it. Hi, this finance nowhere being spent. So we're doing work on working service catalog to do more tagging. And so the buyer wants good tagging procurement integrated. So we're working on a walk slow between marketplace service catalog for procurement. >> Tiring. So you've kind of eliminated procurement or are eliminating procurement as a potential blocker, they use another. Actually, we won't be >> apart for leading procurement. VPs want their V piece of engineering to be happy. >> This is legal. Next. Actually, Greek question. We actually tackled >> legal. First, we did something called Enterprise Code tracked and our customer advisory board Two years ago, one of our buyers, one of our customers, said we're gonna be 100 vendors to deploy it. We're not doing 100 tracks. We've only got one lawyer, You know, 6000 engineers and one lawyer. Well, lawyers, good cord is quickly. So we've created a standard contract. It take stain to persuade legal cause at risk. So we've got a whole bunch of corporations adopting enterprise contract, and we're up to over 75 companies adopting enterprise contract. But legal is apartment >> so modernizing the procurement, a key goal >> procurement, legal, security, engineering. And then the next one is I t finance. So if you think of our budgets on their course teams on AWS, everything needs to be can become visible in either of US budgets. And everything has become visible in course exporter. So we have to call the rate tags. >> I heard a stat that 6,000,000 After moving to the cloud in the next 6,000,000 3 to 5 years, security as a focus reinforces not a summit. It's branded as a W s reinforce, just like reinvents. Same kind of five year for security. What's your impression of the show so far? No, you've been highly active speaking, doing briefing started a customer's burn, the midnight oil with partners and customers What's that? What's your vibe of the show? What's your takeaway? What's the most important thing happening here? What's your what's your summary? >> So I always think you get the truth in the booth. Cut to the chase. I made a customer last night from a major media company who we all know who's in Los Angeles. His comment was weeks, either. These expectations wasn't she wanted to come because he goes to reinvent. Why am I coming to Boston in June? Because I'm gonna go to reinvent November on this. The rates of security for a major media company last night basically said, I love the love. The subject matter, right? It's so security centric. He actually ended up bringing a bunch of people from his team on, and he loves the topics in the stations. The other thing he loved was everybody. Here is insecurity, reinvent. There's lots of people from what's the functions, But everybody here is a security professional. So that was the director of security for a media company. He was at an event talking to one of the suppliers, the marketplace. I asked this president of a very well known security vendor and I said. So what's your reaction to reinforce? And he said, Frankly, when you guys told me it was coming, we didn't really want the bother. It's the end of the quarter. It's a busy time of year. It's another event, he said. I am sure glad we came on. He was standing talking to these VP of marketing, saying, We want to bring more people, make sure, So he's overjoyed. His His comment was, when I go to Rio event 50,000 people but only 5% of their own security. I can't reinforce everybody's insecurity >> in Houston in 2020. Any inside US tow? Why Houston? I have no clue what I actually think >> is really smart about the Vineyard, and this is what a customer said Last night. I met a customer from Connecticut who isn't a load to travel far. They don't get to go to reinvent in Vegas. I think what we did when we came to Boston way tapped into all the states that could drive. So there are people here who don't get to go to reinvent. I think when we go to Houston, we're going to get a whole bunch of takes its customers. Yeah, you don't get a flight to Vegas. So I think it's really good for the customer that people who don't get budget to travel >> makes sense on dry kind of a geographic beograd. The world >> if we're expanding the customers that can learn. So from an education point of view, we're just increase the audience that we're teaching. Great, >> Dave. Great to have you on. Thanks for the insights and congratulations on the new responsibility as you get more coz and around marketplace been very successful. 1,000,000 subscriptions. That's good stuff again. They were >> you reinvented and >> a couple of months, Seven days? What? We're excited. I love covering the growth of the clouds. Certainly cloud security of his own conference. Dave McCann, Vice president Marketplace Migration and Control Service is controlled cattle up. How they how you how you move contract and governed applications in the future. All gonna be happening online. Cloud Mr. Q coverage from Boston. They just reinforced. We right back with more after this short break

>> from Boston, Massachusetts. It's the queue covering active eo 2019. Data driven to you by activity. >> Hi, everyone. Welcome back to Boston. This is the Cube, the leader, and on the ground tech coverage. My name is David. Want a stupid woman. And John for you have been here. Uh, all day we've been plowing through some great interviews. This is active FiOS data driven 19 conference, the second conference. They've had this kind of about 500 people here in Boston. Shaheen peruses here. He's the chief technical officer and chief information security officer at data endure Cuba. LEM, good to see you. Thanks very much for coming back on. >> Thank you. Thanks for having me. >> You're very welcome. So, um, let's talk about backup. Gave a talk today. What is your backup done for you lately? Essentially. You know, so interesting question, right? You look at the data. A lot of customers air rethinking their backup. We sort of saw this with the ascendancy of virtual ization. We're seeing again with cloud and digital transformation. What's that? What was the theme of your talk? What was the catalyst behind the thoughts there? >> I really walk through the concept that storage has continued to evolve so aggressively and so fast with Moore's law and everything else and what has really proliferated. Part of that is that our data keeps growing and growing fast, and a very big contributor of that is copy data management. So we take a backup of something, but we don't ever use that backup. We restore it, and now we have a second copy of production so that development could do work in it. Then we restore it somewhere else so that analytics can happen against that. Then we restored another place, and pretty soon you have 45456 ten 10 20 copies of the exact same data and that proliferation keeps growing and growing. And it's time to think about backup differently. And almost all traditional backup players have not changed the way they operate have not changed the way they deal with backups. They continue to do it the same way, and their programs were written to go to tape versus to Cloud or to do copy data management >> properly. So it's That's a color today, if you would, sir, you said to do it the same way it was meant to go to take meeting. What? It's just a designed to be essentially a serial process. Exactly designed. Maybe maybe recovery is sort of a hope. We never have to recover kind of kind of thought, and that's it. Back up and no other additional value >> and file it somewhere. So just in case something, it's an insurance policy. >> So how should be done >> so before I get into how it should be done, One of the other attributes that makes backup a challenge with traditional players is they convert the data into their proprietary format, so you can't use the data unless you rehydrate it and put it back into its native format. Then you can start doing analytics or a I, or whatever you wanna do against that. So what activity was done differently, which is what I feel is that how you should do it is they keep the data in native format, and then when you need to access that copy of that data, they create a virtual copy of that data. So you're not taking a penny dis space, but its performance, because the underlying this subsystem that you assigned to active fio is have whatever performance, you want to assign it. So now you can spend up 10 copies of the same server without ever taking up 10 copies of storage and give the give all of your constituents that development team, the analytics team, whatever teams the ability to access it in real time. >> Why did the traditional vendors do it that way? Because they want to reduce it to save cost is they wanna optimize on on performance or they want to have control. From a catalog standpoint, Wise >> said, the popular if you go back to tape tape, was really slow. And it was a serial right, like you were saying earlier. And so you had to write software that would know how to take advantage of that slow speed and not make any mistakes and then be able to recover from it. So they were converting it to a format that was easier to write, easier to read. But that format doesn't play anymore in today's world, however, they haven't really adopted their king technologies to today's world and what I 50 0 did differently when they came out 10 years ago, they said. We need to reshape this whole backup landscape on DH. They created this copy data management space and all other backup players. Air tryingto ad copy data management to compete. But active Theo isn't a backup solution. It's a copy data management solution and backup is a nice artifact. >> Okay, so you deliver services on top of this and other technologies, right? Maybe talk a little bit more about your business and what you're going to market >> way help companies that our whole go to market is around this concept of digital resilient. So the ability to survive and thrive in the middle of an attack and whether that be Mother Nature or that be a cyber attack, or that your system's crashing on you and the in order to do that, let's just pick security. Let's parts that for a second. If you have a ransomware attack, for example, you can have the best controls. However, if a foothold gets into your environment and encrypts your data, your only choices recovery. And if you can't recover, you have to pay the ransom to get the encryption back way had a customer who had challenges on their their backups were on the virtual ization platform, which got encrypted and they weren't able to recover. So their only option was to pay ransom ware and, uh, fair to say they weren't the customer until after that happened. But the But the reality is that solutions like after Theo in by nature of the way they act, the way they store the data off promises in cloud or the way they store it s so that it's not easily it's immutable. It makes it a lot easier for a organization to leverage it and be able to recover quickly from it and have offsite copies or multiple data center copies. So that's the That's the challenge. I would say that a solution like activity of >> Psalms, where our customers I've got to take a little change for second and ask you CTO and a C. So I was taking a little security knowledge servant, test your security knowledge, and I actually did really well. I was like, 90% on. But what I got wrong was, you know, if you get hit with ransom where it said you should should pay it, and I said, Well, yeah, I guess so. They said, Nah, you're wrong, like, well, how else would I get my data back? If that's the way you know, I could avoid it if I were. I work with numbers like yours, but should people pay the ransom? >> So the odds of getting an encryption key that allows you to recover your data are minimal there. What usually happens is they don't want to get caught, so they don't want to send you the encryption key. They get the money and run because the more interactions they have with you, the more opportunity for somebody to trail them and figure out how >> to. So you shouldn't pay. You shouldn't, because your chances of infant testable that you're going to get your data back. >> The only way to pay in this customer they happen to have cyber insurance. And so their actual out of pocket expense was a fraction of the ransom. But not all cyber insurance covers all ransomware scenario. So it's They're not all kind of like, so it's a really it's a really complex question. Actually, I was >> wondering if you could do a smart contract. Yeah. Wait. What? >> You get the keys >> and you could be right. Yeah, on, then, then that's the challenge. right. It's leased like who's Who's way >> got to do it at the same time. But yeah, it's it's typically my recommendation is don't pay, but ideally, if you have, if you don't have a backup, then you really don't have an option. >> So part of your your job is obviously information security, which is the fast moving. I mean, that market is exploding. It feels like it's a big do over, You know that's going on. Um, you know, we all know the narrative. It's you know, there is no perimeter. All the money has been spent, you know, sort of hardening, you know, the perimeter building that moat. But now the queen leaves the castle so the whole paradigm changes. So how are you addressing that for your customers? >> So a couple ways Number one, the endpoint is the perimeter now, So the device that's sitting in front of here is an example is where you have to to treat the security, you need to monitor the activity of the behavior that's happening on that device. And if there's something that moves away from baseline, so if you're capturing a baseline of how you operate, what you do day today, and if all of a sudden you start encrypting your files and you never did before, the flag should go off. And those flags need to be able to get back to a central location, which is the business we operate. We offer a sock is a service. We deployed tools on the end points. We collect data from the perimeter, the firewalls around hers, the switches So we see the health of the network. But then we also monitor the end point to make sure if something's happening at that end point, we want to know we want to stop it before it spreads to anywhere else. >> It is a manage service. So another question around, you know, this is the buzz words of multi Cloud. It's a hot space, but it looks legit. I mean, multi cloud, I've always said, is the son of almost a symptom of multi vendor right versus a strategy. But increasingly, people are saying, Okay, we need a strategy. There's horses for courses, certain clouds or better for certain things, and that's where we're going. We're going, maybe rain in the shadow it in the line of business, or at least support them. So we need a strategy. Their So what? Your thoughts on multi cloud. How are you participating in that space? Is there any role for active fio? There >> absolutely is active fio supports all of before the major clouds out there. So they support a WS czar, G, C, P and IBM. And having that strategy allows a customer who's leveraging activity to protect their data to be able to spin up workloads in any of those clouds. And, for example, GP is known for better. Aye, Aye. And analytics. So spin up a copy of your data in G C. P. Do your analytics and then shut it down. Um uh, a czar is known integrate better with any Microsoft platform so spent up your Microsoft workloads and his whore and used them for whatever purposes, whether it's analytics or other and shut him down. Andi, each cloud does have its attributes and benefits that are better >> universes just good. Yeah, well, >> they have a lead, right? They've done a lot of application ecosystem, right? And then IBM, with Watson is kind of taking a lead in the Aye aye space. So, really, it's you as a company. As a architect cloud architect, you need to decide what cloud has the benefits you need and the ability to move between them with a technology like Octavio is pretty key >> thoughts on, uh, security. The cloud In the early days that was a real blocker. You know, people were concerned about security of Cloud, and today it's almost becoming an advantage. Do you buy that? >> So sort of. I've been I've been a c T O N C So for the last 15 years, and early clouds start ups and number one objection I always got was security in the cloud. You can't put your data there. The reality is, the cloud is no different than another data center. It's You can't abdicate your responsibility to secure your infrastructure just because it's in somebody else's data center, it's You still have to do what you would do. Apply your security policies, apply your security controls and manages if it's another one of your polos, for example, and that's where people forget. They think just because it's somewhere else I'm protected. The only benefit that the cloud gives us from a security perspective is the physical security. So nobody can get into that data center because they have great security controls. But that doesn't mean electronically people can't get it. That you're still you. You haven't really gained anything by going to cloud other than reliability and availability. >> Yeah, your point about endpoint security before a bad user behavior is going to trump great security every single time. Exactly. Okay, final thoughts on this event, your business, your partnership, the marketplace take us home. >> I think I think is a great event. Lots of great topics are covered some great partnerships. Way heard some great information about analytics from IBM. I think that active FiOS uniquely positioned where you can take that one, back up your data and then be able to use it in so many different facets of your business rather than, like I said, creating the copies and exploding your data growth. And so because of that, you're seeing the partnership in the ecosystem coming together. The other attributes that makes it powerful is that they've got the AP integration. Anything you could do in the user interface, you can do the FBI, so that allows third party companies to come in and do integrations. That extend the capability and leverage that data even better on DH. So I think this event is good to help show people some of those capabilities and how some of those integration >> support that's here. It's all about creating incremental value with data as opposed to just below one out copies. So great. Appreciate it. Should you? Thanks very much for coming on the Q. Thank you. Good to see you again. Good to see you. All right. Thanks for watching everybody. We'll be back with our next guest right after this short break. You watching the Cube from data driven 19.

>> Live from Barcelona, Spain, it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon + CloudNativeCon Europe 2019. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to Barcelona, Spain, this is theCUBE's live coverage of KubeCon, CloudNativeCon, 2019. 7,700 people in attendance, including myself, Stu Miniman, and co-host Corey Quinn, and returning to the program, Abby Fuller, who is the principal container czarina (Abby laughs) at Amazon Web Services. Yeah, Abby, I could say it without laughing, but, uh-- >> I can't. >> I don't think you can. Yeah, so, you know, let's just, czarina? You know, how does one, you know, become a czarina in their career, Abby? Let's start there. >> You ask Deepak really nicely, and he'll change your title for you. Longer answer, I think I'm doing a similar version of what I've always done for Amazon. Which is, how can I get what customers are asking for, and their feedback, and what they're struggling with, they're working on, or enjoying? Taking that back to our internal product development process, and then doing the same thing back the other way. So if we're building something, how can I help educate customers on how to work with it, and how to use it, how to build with it? So, same thing, just funnier title. >> All right, well, Abby, you know, it's a big, cloud show, so of course we know Amazon will be here. Lot's of developers here at the show, lot's of activity. Yesterday AWS held a, kind of, pre-show workshop. Maybe start there, tell us a little bit about that. >> Yeah, so we had AWS Container Day, maybe five or six hundred people, we did it at the hotel that is allegedly across the street, but is really, like, twenty five minute walk away. We did some workshops, we did a Birds of a Feather session at night. We had a little, mini, product preview announcement, so that was pretty fun. Something called, Container Insights, from CloudWatch team. I think my favorite thing about KubeCon is my favorite thing about the Kubernetes community, right, which is that, everyone is so happy to be here. They're all so enthusiastic. I've never had that many questions at a Birds of a Feather session before. We sent a ton of Amazon people here, to, kind of, talk about EKS, and Kubernetes, and community work. And the energy at the KubeCon is always so impressive. >> Give us a little sampling, you know, there's passion, is there questions? Are they trying to understand the various pieces? Are they excited about some of the new features? What's some of the energy you're capturing? >> Yeah, you know, I think it's both. I think on the EKS side, there's always the balance, right, in the Kubernetes community between, how can I have more power and flexibility? And then, how can you carry pager for more of this? So I think it's always an interesting balance, between the folks that are like, hmm, do you think you could manage that for me as well? And the folks that are like, I want to be able to pass in control plain flags. So, there's always an interesting balance. A lot of questions about version upgrades. I think that one is always, always seems to be top of mind, 'cause the Kubernetes community moves so fast. So, compared to a lot of other products, and how quickly they can release new versions, Kubernetes moves so fast. So, if you don't have a good upgrade strategy, you're in trouble. So-- >> Well, to that point, yesterday during the talk, there was a slide that went up, that listed, over the trailing 12 months, that there were 1,900 and change major service and feature releases. And that's very much a two edged sword, sitting in the audience, 'cause on the one hand, yay, the pace of innovation continues to increase, and services are getting better all the time. On the other, it's one of those, hmm, at least four of those would have been critically important, but I may not know about them. And to that end, something that the container group seems to have done, that almost no one else has, has been to put up a public roadmap of what's coming down the pike. Which has been tremendously helpful for customers, as far as being able to plan things out. How did that come to be? >> A lot of talking. I think, ultimately, right, all teams at AWS work the same way. Which is, backwards from what the customer is asking for. So, we have a lot of customer meetings. We have a lot of customer conversations, we talk to a lot of people. I do a lot with that on social media, or at conferences, or with blogs, or with live streaming. But ultimately, at the root of it, we all follow the same process. And I think the roadmap is really an extension of that. It's, how could we get, both what we're working on, to customers a little bit faster, but also, how can you have a voice that we hear so much more loudly? So, right? That you can be the smallest start up, or the largest enterprise, and you can open a GitHub issue just the same. And say, hey, you know, I'd really like to see you do that. And, I think the other piece of it, is that everyone has an AWS story. Where they build something custom, to work around something, or to add a feature, and then six weeks later we're like, we shipped it! And that's awesome, it's a good problem to have, and being able to delete code is one of everyone's favorite problems, I think. It's my favorite problem. >> It's one of life's true joys. >> It is one of life's true joys. (Corey laughs) But, what I think is even better than that, is a little bit of a heads up. And I think that that really builds trust between us and the community, is, how can we let you know we're working on, so you can plan around it? Or, if you don't see something, let us know that we're not thinking about the things that you value. >> Well, So Abby, you know, we've been at the Amazon shows for a number of years-- >> Yeah. >> And that customer feedback loop is something that we hear a lot. >> Yeah. >> Are there any dynamics about, just being in a big, open source community here, is, you know, just listening, and feedback loops as part of that? So, how does that impact, you know, how you work on things? >> Yeah, so, when we do events like this, I try to talk to as many people as possible. I try to listen in to the conversations, when I can. People come by the booth, they come by the meeting rooms. And I think it's about taking that back from all the different sources that were at the conference, the reviews online, the blog posts that people write after this, coverage like theCUBE, taking that all back, and then let's go through it. And then, how many of these things do we know about? Have a lot of people asked us for this? Is this something new? If it is new, how can we go find other people to talk to, to see who else is having that problem, that maybe we just didn't know to ask about before? So it's all part of that same working backwards process, but feedback comes from so many different places, and I think that, that ultimately is what makes it cool, right? It's because you get different feedback at a KubeCon than you will at a re:Invent, than you will on a Twitter, or that you will at a customer meeting. So, you need all of those sources to kind of figure out, what's more important? And, who is it important to? >> Yeah, one of the things that I find fascinating about the entire AWS Container story is, you almost get to decide your own level of involvement. You can run it all yourself, on top of EC2, you can wind up doing one of the manage serves with ECS, or EKS. And then there's Fargate, which I'm very bullish on for the future, if for no other reason that, if that takes over, suddenly we will never have to hear someone from Amazon mispronounce AMI, ever again. Which, I'll take my victories where I can find them. (Abby laughs) But, what are you seeing customers doing with Fargate? What's the paradigm look like, that's different than you might have expected at launch? >> Yeah, so, the way that I ultimately think about Fargate, right, is as a, it's a capacity provider for EC2. So, when you think about, kind of, the levels of control, right? You start at maybe the orchestrator level, so an ECS or an EKS. And if you're using ECS through Fargate, you're not interacting directly with EC2. So it's about, how can I control and define everything at just the container level, just at the task definition level, without having to think about the underlying EC2 instances? And they're still there, before someone tells me that serverless still has servers. But, you're not the one that's actively managing them. We're managing them on your behalf. All you care about is your workload itself. And then you can go a step deeper than that, and say, you know what, I want control over those EC2 instances. I want to manage them myself, maybe I want to do something in user data, or I want to be able to run DaemonSets myself, on the underlying infrastructure, and that's fine. So, I think it's ultimately about the level of control that you want. Fargate, to me, is interesting because it's like Lambda, in the sense that people have seemed very joyful about not having to manage EC2. Because ultimately, that's not what's providing them business value. That's not what let's them differentiate, and I think the way that Werner puts it is, you want everything that you write to be business logic. And I think with things like Lambda and Fargate, it gets you one step closer to that. That instead of having to manage infrastructure, to then manage your code, it's, just manage my code, please figure out the rest of it for me. >> This is borderline heresy in some circles, so don't, at me. (Abby laughs) But, what I'm wondering is, are things like containers, and functions as a service, aligned longer term, on the same axis? At some point, where it just becomes an implementation detail, and not a battle that needs to be fought. >> Yeah, the way that we think about it, right, is that, and I think the way that customers see it, is that serverless is ultimately a spectrum. There are many different flavors of it, depends on how you kind of want to work with it. But ultimately, I think, even longer term, maybe this is even more heretical, right? But, I want to not care. I don't want to have to care about the primitive that you're using. I don't want you to have to choose. And right now, I think you have to choose, regardless of the tool that you're using, you must choose very early. And to take advantage of a new tool, to go from containers, to Lambda, or whatever else you want to use, you have to re-write. Or you have to rebuild, or you have to re-wrap what you're doing. And I want to get to a point where you don't care. That I can use whatever combination of the below that I want to use, and that AWS will provide tools around that, that just says, you run this however you want. You mix and match whatever flavors you like, and we'll take care of it. >> Yeah, it's interesting, almost every time we've done one of these Kubernetes shows, we've had somebody from Amazon on, and even if we haven't had an AWS employee, almost every customer we have on is doing some, if not a lot of Amazon. There's some out there that look, and they're like, well, Amazon doesn't have the biggest booth, and Amazon has all of these different choices out there, so they must not be fully committed to, you know, capitol K, Kubernetes, and things like that. How can you help us understand what's going on? >> Yeah, so, I think Bob Wise, and his team spent a ton of time working on the community, and the whole team does, right? We're one of the biggest contributors to etcd, we're hosting Birds of a Feather. We've contributed back to a fair amount of community projects, and I think a lot of them are, in fact, around how to just make Kubernetes work better on AWS. And that might be something that we built because, EKS. Or, it might be something like Cluster Autoscaler, right? Which, ultimately, people would like to work better with Auto Scaling groups. So, I think we have the community involvement, but, I think it's about having a quiet community involvement, right? That, it's about chopping wood, and carrying water, and being present, and committing, and showing up, and having experts, and answering questions, and being present in things like SIG groups, than it is, necessarily, having the biggest booth. >> Yeah, I mean, from my perspective, at conferences, across the board, community involvement can never be measured by who spends enough money on the conference to have a booth large enough to play ice hockey in. That doesn't really seem to be as good of a barometer. Things like the roadmap, tend to be a spectacular, I guess, expression of how that engagement is starting to look. And I really am enthusiastic to see what's been done so far, and I'm looking forward to seeing more of it. >> Well thank you, I'm really proud of the roadmap. It's been so interesting to see customers take a, kind of, a new level of transparency, for us, product roadmap wise. And then, I love seeing people go through, and start adding more. So, I feel like the roadmap started to feel successful to me when customers started opening a ton of issues, and saying, hey, have you thought about this? Our new thing is, we've been posting requests for comments, or design docs on there, and saying, you know, we're thinking about building this, and here's what we were thinking about building. Did the way that we built this solve the problem that you're trying to solve? 'Cause ultimately, you can build the coolest thing in the world, and if it doesn't solve problems for your customers, what's the point? >> Yeah, and Abby, I'll reiterate that the roadmap was something that, you know, the ecosystem, the community, was very excited about. What other things did you want to share before we wrap? You know, things at the show, or related to the container space that, you know, you're hearing your customers talking, and asking a lot about. >> Yeah, so I've heard great things about all the sessions. I think that I'm a little biased, 'cause I was on the program committee. So, obviously the selection was universally excellent. Yeah, I think, what I like the most, I think, about events like this, is that everyone seems to have a different way of solving things. They're all asking for something new. They're all talking about a different project. They're all in different SIG groups. They're all making different feature requests. They're all using different tools. I think that that's really powerful, and I think was what's made Kubernetes so amazing, is that, the whole community feels like this. This is a huge turn out for a conference, and everyone feels very, like, actively engaged. And I like seeing us, kind of, push the boundaries, right? Between, how much can I pass off to something like EKS? And then, how much can I keep customizing, but on only the things that matter to me? >> I guess, as you're talking about roadmap, and plans for the future, if I were to build an environment on AWS, going back, let's say a decade-ish, I would have built something in a single AWS account, using EC2 classic, and maybe simple DB, as a data store. Which, generally, is in no way aligned with best practices today, and migrating off of those types of architectures, for some customers, has been painful. Is there any way to, I guess, loosen the abstraction, for lack of a better term? Of, what, the things we can do, and build in a forward looking way today, that will make migrating to whatever best practices emerge from the customer learnings, or the rest, in the future, not be the equivalent of an entire migration? >> Yeah, so, I think what you're asking, right, is, how can I make, kind of, adopting new technologies, or migrating, a little bit easier? >> Yeah. Or even, adopting new patterns. >> That's a really interesting one. Yeah. I think where I see this space kind of going, and where I think it gets interesting to me, is thinks like App Mesh. So, I can have many different kinds of compute inside of a mesh, through App Mesh, right? So I can have an application running on EC2, I can have a container running with EKS, or ECS, I can have Kubernetes on EC2. In the fullness of time, I'd love to see things like Lambda functions inside an App Mesh. What I like about that, is that, how that can make the migration process easier. Because if I can have many types of primitives in the same mesh, I can mix and match, or I can drain traffic off from one to the other, and I can experiment a little bit more without having to re-write, 'cause I can try it out. It can be part of the same mesh, and if I want to move, I can just move more stuff over. So, I think that's interesting, and I think, as for, kind of, the best practices, and stuff like that, we evolve hand in hand with our customers. As our customers are figuring out new technologies that they want to use, or new ways of building things, we want to be right there with them. And I think the AWS way is about, how can we help customers build whatever way they want to do, but help them be secure, reliable and scalable. >> Yeah. What I'm hearing from that, as a take away, is, if I'm not playing around with service mesh's, or app mesh's now, it's probably time to fix that, and learn how they work. >> I think it's a new technology. I think it's an interesting one, I'm excited to see where it goes, but, watching it, kind of, grow along with Kubernetes, has been really interesting. >> All right, well Abby Fuller, thanks so much for joining again on theCUBE. >> Thanks for having me. >> For Corey Quinn, I'm Stu Miniman, you're watching KubeCon, CloudNativeCon 2019, in Barcelona, Spain, thanks for watching theCUBE. (futuristic music)

>> Live, from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE, covering AWS re:Invent, 2018 brought to you by Amazon Web Services, Intel, and their ecosystem partners. >> Well, good morning. Welcome back, or good afternoon for that matter, if you're watching out on the East Coast. Good to have you have here on theCUBE as we continue our coverage here in Las Vegas. We're at the Sands Expo, Hall D to be exact, one of seven sites that are hosting the AWS re:Invent John Wallace here with Justin Warren. We're now joined by Ankur Shah, who is the vice president of Products, a public cloud security, Palo Alto Networks, and, Ankur, good to see you this morning. >> Yeah, happy to be here. >> Thank you for being with us. And Richard Wise, who is the cloud security engineer, or a cloud security engineer at Robert Half. Good morning to you, Richard. >> Good morning. >> Well, first off, let's tell us about Robert Half. So, you're a recruiting firm in a partnership with Palo Alto, but fill in a few more blanks for folks at home who might not know exactly what you do. >> Sure, we're a staffing and recruiting firm. We have offices worldwide. We have roughly 15,000 full-time employees. We also have many, many temporary employees, and, of course, we do recruiting. Many people I've met here at the conference, in fact, got their first job or one job in the past through Robert Half. And we also-- >> That's makes you a really popular guy-- >> Yes. when the show closes. >> And we also have Protiviti, our prestigious consulting arm. >> Okay, so now, about your partnership. How did you find Palo Alto, or how did Palo Alto find you? And talk about maybe that relationship, how it's developed and where it stands today. What are they doing for you? >> Sure, well, we found Palo Alto about two years ago. We're about seven years into our cloud journey, but it became very clear at a point in time that we needed to get a better handle on how we were managing and securing it. We were doing all the right things but we didn't have the visibility we needed, so we brought in Evident to do that. Also, compliance is very important to us, and the tools allowed us to ensure that we were conforming to all of the compliance standards that we needed to. >> So, maybe Ankur, you can get us in here. Explain how did this partnership get started? >> Yeah, so Robert Half is kind of prototypical customer for us at Palo Alto Networks. Customers moving to cloud. AWS is obviously one of the biggest clouds, so all our customers are migrating, a lot of their, you know, shutting down their data centers, and moving the work loads and applications to the cloud, but as they move to the cloud, they want to make sure that they have the visibility and the security controls to make sure that they are not in the news. So, that's how the partnership started. A lot of customers, just like Robert Half, starts with kind of, you know, I'd like to get a visibility into what's happening in my cloud environment, detect advance data breeches, like cryptojacking, stolen access keys, things of that nature, so that's how we kind of started this partnership. We've been kind of helping them kind of move more and more applications and more and more workloads in their AWS environments, and it's been a really amazing partnership. We've gotten some amazing feedback from them that has helped mature the product over the years. >> What's one of the more surprising things that you've noticed as part of this journey. What's something that you didn't realize that this was going to be a benefit to this partnership, and then, once you actually had Palo Alto come in there, it's like, oh wow, this is amazing. >> Well, there were a couple of things. First off, their RQL, the RedLock Query Language, is very powerful and flexible, and let's us take our compliance and security to the next level, but was really impressed when we first started talking to RedLock and Palo Alto, even before we had purchased the product, we saw some opportunities for product improvements, suggested them, and before we purchased it, within a couple of weeks, they were there. >> Wow. >> Yeah. >> That's pretty fast of all those cycles. I mean, that's what we're here for is rapid innovation. They're trying to change things at the speed of cloud. So, how do you do that safely and securely? Maybe you can tell us how does Palo Alto help do this rapid innovation but still keep everything really secure. >> Yeah, so our DNAs, obviously, network security is where the company started. Over a year now, the company has doubled down on public cloud security, and a lot of emphasis on, sort of, securing customers' cloud environment, helping a lot of customers migrate their applications into the cloud, and from a security standpoint, we look at it from different angles. One is kind of the basic configuration management aspects, making sure that customers don't leave open s3 buckets, permissive security groups, things of that nature. Above and beyond that, we also perform network analytics, so things like triple jacking, data exploration attempts. The platform is able to detect those kinds of advanced threats. Privileged activity monitoring, and anomaly detection is another thing we do, and last but not the least, host monitoring and host security aspects. That's something we do really, really well in the cloud as well, so when you combine all of that stuff, gives customers 360 visibility, as well as security for all things in the cloud. >> I'm sorry. Richard, how hard is your job these days? (laughing) And I mean that with all due respect. We've talked a lot about complexity. We've talked a lot about speed. We've talked a lot about versatility, and high demand, and all these things. Corner office is making demands on you, right? I mean, how tough is it to be in your shoes? >> If it was easy, it wouldn't be fun. I've been working in cloud about as long as Robert Half has, about seven years, and moving into the security role, it's been an incredibly interesting challenge. Yes, it's hard. I do stay up at night on occasion worrying about, did I check this, did I check that? I'm fortunate that our management has a really good understanding of the importance of security and of cloud, and I've gotten a lot of support in my role there so, in that respect, it hasn't been too hard. >> And where is it that security, in terms of a deployment? So, you think about function, right, right? >> Yeah. >> What are we going to get done here? But is it a close second, is it a tie? Because, especially in your business, I mean, you have a lot of personal information with which you're working that you've got to protect. >> Absolutely, so, people trust us with their data. We have personal information for many, many people, and we take very seriously our responsibility to manage and protect that. One of the things that we've done with Palo Alto's tools is ensuring that we're compliant with all of the various standards like ISO 27001, and compliance is kind of like brushing your teeth, right. Everybody needs to do it, and somebody doesn't want to be friends with somebody who doesn't brush their teeth. So, we ensure that we brush our teeth using tools like Palo Alto's. We can demonstrate to people that we're brushing our teeth. >> Right. >> With the innovation of RedLock now, we're able to take that to the next level, so we're not only brushing our teeth now, but we're also grooming our hair. >> You're technologically flossing as well, I'm sure. >> We are, we are. >> So, Ankur, I think that makes you the dentist of cloud security. (laughing) >> So, you've got people brushing their teeth, they're flossing. What comes next? What should they be looking at? Should they be going beyond just hygiene factors, and is there something they can do that's more than just brushing their teeth? >> Yeah, so I touched upon some of those areas. So, I think it all starts with the basic hygiene that we've talked about it, right. So, you got to do it. That's the, kind of, the fundamental, but the next-gen attacks are not going to be very simple, right, because the cloud fundamentally increases the attack factor, right, so the malicious actor, they're smarter, right. So, like I mentioned, things like cryptojacking, stolen access keys, a lot of the next-gen breeches are going to happen in the cloud, so customers have to constantly understand the kind of AWS services that they're adopting, understand the security implications, make sure they have the security guard rails, and like I mentioned, that once they understand that, look at it more holistically, both from, sort of, the basic hygiene perspective, as well as from network security, user activity, as well host monitoring perspective. Once they cover all of that stuff, you know, hopefully they'll have good teeth forever. (laughing) >> Strong cloud teeth. I don't think that's a phrase I wouldn't have thought I'd say until today. >> You know, we hear a lot about the cat and mouse game in security, right? You're trying to stay one step ahead of bad actors who are spending a lot of time, and a lot of resources, and a lot of energy to stay a step ahead of you. So, in today's world, how do you really win that battle? How do you predict where the next wrong turn is going to come, if you will, or where that invasion's going to try to occur, and prevent that, or are you in a prophylactic state all the time where it's about seeing where that action's going, and then trying to stop it once you've learned of it? See what I mean? It's a conundrum that I think you find yourself in. >> You know, I think 90% of the problems that happen where bad actors get hold of your sensitive data is because of common, silly mistakes. So, making sure that there is a user training across the board, not just security teams. Now, DevOps teams have to be part of the equation as well. They need to be trained, and coached, and understanding the security implications of their day-to-day operations. Once you train the users, you'll find that a lot of these problems will go away because most of these actors are using simple techniques to get into the customer's cloud environment because those mistakes are being made. So, start with the user training. Obviously, you need third party tooling and technologies like Palo Alto Networks to make sure you have that security guard rails all the time. Beyond that, you know, you just have to hire a lot of smart people like Richard just to insure that you're ahead of the game, thinking two steps in advance, yeah. >> It's about locking the door. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, and I want to touch on a couple of the things that Ankur said. He talked about building security into DevOps. So, there's this concept we call shifting left where you're trying to build security more upfront into the development and deployment process before you even get into the wild, and that's something Palo Alto is helping us with. The other thing is, we cannot hire enough people to keep up with the pace at which we're scaling our cloud environments, so we need tooling and automation like RedLock in order to ensure that we can get visibility and control on this vast set of resources with just a small number of people. >> Yeah. >> So necessity driving invention in that case, right? >> Yes. >> You need it. Well, gentlemen, thanks for the time. We appreciate the conversation. I feel like I need to go brush or floss. (laughing) >> Yeah, thanks for having us. >> Very self-conscious all of a sudden, but thank you both. >> Thanks for having us. >> Brilliant discussion. Back with more from AWS re:Invent. You're watching theCUBE here in Las Vegas. (energetic electronic music)

>> Live from Las Vegas it's theCUBE covering AWS re:Invent 2018. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services, Intel and their ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to the Sands. We're live in Las Vegas here on theCUBE as we continue our coverage of AWS re:Invent. Along with Justin Warren, I'm John Walls. We're now joined by Dave Shacochis, who is Vice President of Product and Hybrid IT at Centurylink. Dave, good to see you again. >> Yeah, great to be back. Good to be back on theCube, good to talk to you John. >> Excellent. And by the way, you win the GQ award. >> All right. >> Everybody raving about that black, velvet you've got going on. >> 50,000 people here at re:Invent. If I'm in the lead- >> That looks very strong. >> I'm in the lead at the turn, that's good to hear. >> Best Dressed award. >> Very nice. All right, well big news though for you guys. Obviously being designated as the managed services provider, reaching that certification with AWS, tell us about that, about that process and what it's meaning to your business, and what it means to your customers. >> Yeah, AWS is such a customer-focused organization. They're very passionate about their end customers, and solving problems. But they've also built up a huge partner network, and what Terry Wise and the team have built is a real partner-relevant organization. And so what they've really done to make it a level playing field, to be as passionate about their partners as they are about their end customers, hopefully intending to solve problems for customers as well, is really to put a lot of thought into making sure that when they have a competency or a certification, that it's no joke to get through. It's a serious exercise to go through something like a managed service provider or an MSP certification. We had that get finished up for us several months ago, and we've been rolling that into our managed cloud practice, and really helping our customers with the three key criteria of what AWS really wants to have its partners do, which is really design and plan and be able to orchestrate workloads, and model workloads for customers, and understand how and where they're going to deploy and migrate into the cloud. They really want to see and make sure that you're doing next generation work during the operational run phase. Not just are you monitoring and managing those workloads in those environments, but are you doing predictive analytics? Are you starting to take a look at trends inside the data? Are you using Big Data to actually augment your management practices? Right? Not traditional ITEL just in a cloud location, but really next generation managed services. They measure and they certify all that. And then the third thing they want to do is take a look at how are you reporting? How are you helping the customer optimize and analyze cost, and become as efficient as they can with their deployment of AWS services. So it's a significant exercise to go through. It really made our service better. And quite honestly, that's a great example of AWS being customer-focused by making sure that the partners they want to work with can hit a certain level-- >> Step up your game. >> Hit a certain bar to be able to drive that value for their end customers. >> Yep. >> Yeah. So for the customers who were choosing Centurylink to come to something like AWS, what is it about Centurylink that they like? That they would rather deal with you than go, say direct to AWS and try to do everything themselves? >> I think there's really sort of two or three real differentiators for Centurylink when we work with our customers. Probably the first and foremost is that hybrid nature of how we can meet the customers where they are. Centurylink has been running and managing and working in the data center space for a good 15 to 20 years. We've been running and managing private clouds and hosted compute environments for as long as there has been such a category in the industry. With all the different heritage that rolls into Centurylink from an IT Services perspective. So they really come for the experience and the pedigree, and the complexity, friendliness. But they also come for the fact that we can meet them where they are, whether it's inside their current data center, help them do data center consolidation, help them move into hosted centers, and then help them on that journey, 'cause so much of the enterprise is still very much on a journey, right? There may be projects that are firing up to the cloud, there are a lot of organizations that are ready to make the full leap and go all-in on the cloud, but by and large there's some kind of a hybrid environment where they're still looking at the different form factors, and they're very much on a journey to get from where they are today to where they can be more agile. >> Yeah. >> So this is the experience that we have. But then what we really, and there's lots of companies out there that have good experience, they have good tools, they have experience running and managing and monitoring. There's a lot of other companies that have the MSB certification. What Centurylink has that's really a deep investment is all the network optionality and the network control that we have. So not only can we do managed services inside AWS, we can also do the managed network that gets the traffic and gets the workload to AWS. >> Right. >> And that's a real critical differentiator. Not only can we get those connections set up and configured, we can also manage those environments and then secure those environments. So there's a lot of investment that Centurylink has put into our managed cloud practice, augmented by managed networking and managed security. The assets that Centurylink brings to bear with regards to our security portfolio and our network portfolio, come from years of significant investment. One of the largest global IP backbones in the world. We've been gleaming network and security telemetry from that network, and building threat patterns and threat management services inside the core of our network. So really, customers who work with us have a secure, consistent, reliable path to the cloud, and then they get the managed services, the MSB certified managed services, once they're there. >> Yeah. So speaking of connections, I believe that you've announced a product in, I think it was October, called Direct Connections. >> Yes. >> Is that right? Tell me more about what that is. >> Sure so that's that sort of, for those of you tracking my hand waving at home, you know the network stuff over here. Inside our network portfolio there is ... our cloud connect service is one of most deeply connected to AWS services out there. So we're a significant direct connect partner. We drive an ethernet-based service into AWS in all their major regions, and then we have that cloud connect service run to hundreds of global multi-tenant data centers as well as hundreds of thousands of enterprise locations. So we have, what we launched there back in October was the latest version of cloud connect, which we call Dynamic Connections. It's a feature within cloud connect that allows us to take a global ethernet circuit, tying into AWS, and make that happen in minutes. That didn't exist before. So a lot of people think about AWS direct connect, and they can configure direct connect and tie it up to their VPC, then they start the Telecom process that could take weeks and or months, and it depends on who they're working with, and who they're buying from. >> Yeah. >> If you're in a building that's on net with us, or your traditional data center is one of the data centers, the many hundreds of data centers that are on net with us, we can go and get that connection turned up, all of the automation, and once you get that circuit created, you can dial it up and dial it back, a gig, ten gigs, anywhere in between. You can go below a gig, wherever you need to. You have complete control over the creation of a new circuit, which is great for retail locations. Retail customers like this as they're bringing in new facilities, and bringing mixed-use facilities on net, and they're bringing new facilities that they need to be able to trunk back to their data center in the cloud. We can use dynamic connections to go and help them create new locations, but then as the business needs change at those locations, they can dial up and dial down bandwidth, and really have a rich level of control for how the traffic is being routed and passed. >> Yeah, having spoken to customers in the past, that is actually quite valuable. It has been quite painful to go through that process. >> A lot of big cloud migrations, once they're done with them, one of the problems you run into is, "Well, I never really thought through and anticipated what the network path would look like after I made that move to the cloud." >> Yeah. >> And that's one of things we try to do with our customers at the onset of an engagement, is not just say, "Let's start stampeding to the cloud right away." Nothing necessarily wrong with that, but let's think through the network design first. Who are your users? What are the new traffic patterns going to look like? And what are the hybrids that you're going to be building, where something that's in the cloud needs to talk back to your corporate data center? Do you have enough bandwidth and do you have a low enough latency connection between the two? >> Yeah. >> Early this week you were talking about Milliseconds Matter, right? You had a presentation that you were featuring that. So what does that mean to your AWS customers? That's kind of intuitive, they do matter. >> Sure. >> What was the perspective that you were bringing to that and the latency issue? >> Yeah, so we did a presentation here earlier in the show, where we really illustrated that combination I was referring to earlier, of our MSP certified managed offering coupled with our cloud connect network automation. What we've really done a lot of work with around cloud connect is creating a service that has a few different user experiences. If you're a network engineer, if you're somebody who's running a corporate network, you really want to get in and really just get a layer to interface from Centurylink, optimize your BGP routing and do all of those sort of Telecom-grade configurations, you can do that with Centurylink cloud connect. We also have a very straight-forward version. In Andy's keynote this morning, one of the things he was really talking about, it really spoke to me, was this idea of, well there are builders who want to use the tools, and there are builders who just want instructions. >> Yeah. >> Builders who just want to dump the IKEA parts out and put the thing together. And then there's some people that want to sit there with a lathe and handcraft everything. So different types of builders. We have a version of cloud connect that can appeal to the builder who doesn't necessarily want to get down in the weeds of networking, and they just want to basically take a workload and connect it to the right private network link. And so that higher level version of cloud connect is what we demonstrated earlier today, and really the fundamental premise of Milliseconds Matter is network orchestration and cloud orchestration coupled together gives you a whole lot greater level of control. And that's where we're starting to see all these emerging use cases, where you can certainly think about migrating everything to the cloud, but then you have to start thinking about where do those workloads need to run? What does the future look like, in terms of IoT devices and sensors and video telemetry and environmental telemetry, all the different sources of data that organizations can use to go and innovate around. Where you're going to run that business logic is going to run closer and closer to the edge for a lot industries: in retail, in healthcare, in a lot of government institutions, in hospitality. So basically the fundamental premise of Milliseconds Matter is have control of your cloud, but then also have control over your network, and hopefully have the two in concert with one another. And that's what we're fundamentally driving at with our service platform. >> Sounds great. >> And real quick, when you talk about all this, in a 5G world, all of a sudden when you talk about edge, you talk about- >> Sure. >> That's a game changer, is it not? >> Well it is. 5G is still so emergent. There's a lot that's there. There's a lot there that's 5G. There's still 4GLTE. There's still lots of different ways to go and get all that data trunked together. And it doesn't stay on LTE forever, right? Eventually it all starts to get to an IP backbone, and then that's where you still have a lot of latency optimizations and route optimizations that you want to be able to deal with. So we absolutely look at LTE as something that we think is a huge opportunity with a lot of our partners that we're working with across our network footprint, to be able to use LTE as a new access strategy, just like we've used just about all the other access strategies that are out there. >> Excellent. Good to see you again. >> Yeah, great to see you, John. >> See you down the road soon, I hope. >> For sure. >> All right, thank you for joining us. Dave Shacochis joining us here from Centurylink. Back with more from AWS re:Invent. You're watching theCube. (electronic music)

(upbeat orchestral music) >> Welcome back everybody. Jeff Frick here with the CUBE. We're at our Palo Alto studios having a CUBE conversation about digital transformation, industrial internet, AI, ML, all things great, and we're really excited to have a representative of GE, one of our favorite companies to work with because they're at the cutting edge of old industrial stuff and new digital transformation and building a big software organization out in San Ramon. So we're so happy to have here first time Jeff Erhardt. He is the VP Intelligent Systems from GE Digital. Jeff, great to see you. >> Pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me. >> Absolutely, so how did you get into GE? You actually, a creature of the valley, you've been here a little while. How did you end up at GE? >> I have. I'm a new guy, so I've been here about a year and a half, I came in via the acquisition of a company called Wise IO where I was the CEO, so I've spent the last 10 years or so of my life building two different analytic startups. One was based around a very popular and powerful open source language called R and spent a lot of time working with much of the Fortune 500. Think the really data driven companies now that you would think of, the Facebooks, the Goldman Sachs, the Mercks, the Pfeizers helping them go through this data driven journey. Anyway, that company was acquired by Microsoft and is embedded into their products now. But the biggest thing I learned out about that was that even if you have really good data science teams, it's incredibly hard to go from white board into production. How do you take concepts and make them work reliably repeatably, scalably over time? And so, Wise IO was a machine learning company that was a spin out from Berkeley, and we spent time building what I now refer to as intelligent systems for the purposes of customer support automation within things like the sales force and Zendesk ecosystem, and it was really that capability that drew us to GE or drew GE to approach us, to think about how do we build that gap not just from algorithms, but into building true intelligent applications? >> Right, so GE is such a great company. They've been around for a hundred years, original DOW component, Jeff Immelt's not there now, but he was the CEO I think for 16 years. A long period of time. Beth Comstock, fantastic leader. Bill Ruth building this great organization. But it's all built around these industrial assets. But they've started, they did the industrial internet launch. We helped cover it in 2013. They have the Pridix Cloud, their own kind of industrial internet cloud, had a big developer conference. But I'm curious coming from kind of a small Silicon Valley startup situation. When you went into GE, what's kind of the state of their adoption, you know, kind of how had Bill's group penetrated the rest of GE and were they making process? We're people kinda getting it, or were you still doing some evangelical work out in the field? Absolutely both, meaning people understand it are implementing yet I think there was maybe misunderstandings about how to think about software data in particular analytics and AI machine learning. And so a big part of my first year at the company was to spend the time coming in really from the top down, from sort of the CEO and CDO levels across the different business understanding what was the state of data and data driven processes within their businesses. And what I learned really quickly was that the core of this business, and this is all public information been well publicized, is in things like GE Aviation. It's not necessarily the sale of the engine that is incredible profitable, but rather it's maintaining and servicing that over time. >> Right. >> And what organizations like them, like our oil and gas divisions, with things like their inspection capabilities like our power division had really done is they had created as a service businesses where they we're taking data across the customer base, running it through a data driven process, and then driving outcomes for our customers. And all of a sudden the aha moment was wow, wait a minute. This is the business model that every startup in the valley is getting funded to take down the traditional software players for. It's just not yet modern, scalable, repeatable, with AI machine learning built in, but that's the purpose and the value of building these common platforms with these applications on top that you can then make intelligent. >> Right. >> So, once we figure that out it was very easy to know where to focus and start building from that. >> So it's just, it's kinda weird I'm sure for people on the outside looking in to say data driven company. We all want to drive data driven companies. But then you say, well wait a minute, now GE builds jet engines. There's no greater example that's used at conferences as to the number of terabytes of data an engine throws off on a transcontinental flight. Or you think of a power plant or locomotion and you think of the control room with all this information so it probably seems counterintuitive to most that, didn't they have data, weren't they a data driven organization? How has the onset of machine learning and some of the modern architectures actually turned them into a data driven company, where before I think they were but really not to the level that we're specifying here. >> Yah, I-- >> What would be your objective, what are you trying to take on this? >> Absolutely, machine learning, AI, whatever buzz words you want to use is a fascinating topic. It's certainly come into vogue. like many things that are hyped, gets confused, gets misused, and gets overplayed. But, it has the potential to be both an incredibly simple technology as well as an incredibly powerful technology. So, one of the things I've most often seen cause people to go awry in this space is to try to think about what is the new things that I can do with machine learning? What is the green field opportunity? And whenever I'm talking to somebody at whatever level, but particularly at the higher levels of the company is I like to take a step back and I like to say, "What are the value producing, data driven workflows within your business?" And I say define for me the data that you have, how decisions are made upon it, and what outcome that you are driving for. And if you can do that, then what we can do is we can overlay machine learning as a technology to intelligently automate or augment those processes. And in turn what that's gonna do is it's gonna force you to standardize your infrastructure, standardize those workflows, quantify what you're trying to optimize for your customers. And if you do that in a standardized and incremental way, you can look backward having accomplished some very big things. >> Right, and those are such big foundational pieces that most people I think discount again, just the simple question of where is your data. >> That's right. >> What form is it in? So another interesting concept that we cover all the time with all the shows we go to is democratization, right? So it seems to me pretty simple, actually. How do you drive innovation, democratize the data, democratize the tool to manipulate the data, and democratize the ability to actually do something about it. That said, it's not that easy. And this kind of concept that we see evolving from citizen developer to citizen integrator to citizen data scientist is kinda where we all want to go to, but as you've experienced first hand it's not quite as easy as maybe it appears. >> Yah, I think that's a very fair statement and you know, one of the things, again I spend a lot of time talking about, is I like to think about getting the right people in the right roles, using the right tools. And the term data scientist has evolved over the past five plus years going from to give Drew Conway some credit of his Venn diagram of a program or a math kinda domain expert, into meaning anybody that's looking at data. And there's nothing wrong with that, but the concept of taking anybody that has ability to look at data within something like a BI or a Tableau tool, that is something that should absolutely be democratized and you can think about creating citizens for those people. On the flip side, though, how do you structure a true intelligent system that is running reliably, robustly, and particular in our field in mission critical, high risk, high stakes applications? There are bigger challenges than simply are the tools easy enough to use. It's very much more a software engineering problem than it is a data access or algorithmic problem. >> Right. >> And, so we need to build those bridges and think about where do we apply the citizens to for that understanding, and how do we build robust, reliable software over time? >> Right, so many places we can go, and we're gonna go a lot of them. But one of the things you touched on which also is now coming in vogue is kind of ML that you can, somebody else's ML, right? >> Mhmm. >> As you would buy an application at an app store, now there's all kinds of algorithmic equations out there that you can purchase and participate in. And that really begs an interesting question of kinda the classic buy versus build, or as you said before we turned on the cameras buy versus consume because with API economy with all these connected applications, it really opens up an opportunity that you can use a lot more than was produced inside your own four walls. >> Absolutely. >> For those applications. >> Yep. >> And are you seeing that? How's that kinda playing out? >> So we can parse that in a couple of different ways. So the first thing that I would say is there's a Google paper from a few years back that we love and it's required reading for every new employee that we bring on board. And the title of it was machine Learning is the High Interest Credit Card of Technical Debt. And one of the key points within that paper is that the algorithm piece is something like five percent of an overall production machine learning implementation. And so it gets back to the citizen piece. About it's not just making algorithms easier to use, but it's also about where do you consume things from an API economy? So that's the first thing I would think about. The second thing I would think about is there's different ways to use algorithms or APIs or pieces of information within an overall intelligent system. So you might think of speech to text or translation as capabilities. That's something where it probably absolutely makes sense to call an API from an Amazon or a Microsoft or a Google to do that, but then knowing how to integrate that reliably, robustly into the particular application or business problem that you have, is an important next step. >> Right. >> The third thing that I would think about is, it very much matters what your space is. And there's a difference between doing things like image classification on things like Imagenet which is publicly available images which are well documented. Is it a dog versus a cat? Is it a hot dog versus not? Versus some of the things that we face with an industrial context, which aren't really publicly available. So we deal with things like within our oil and gas business we have a very large pipeline inspection integrity business where the purpose of that is to send the equivalent of an MRI machine through the pipes and collect spectral images that collect across 14 different sensors. The ability to think that you're gonna take a pre trained algorithm based on deep learning and publicly available images to something that is noisy, dirty, has 14 different types of sensors on it and get a good answer-- >> Right. >> Is ridiculous. >> And there's not that many, right? >> And there's not that many. >> That's the other thing I think people underestimate the advantage that Google has we're all taking pictures of dogs and blueberries-- >> Correct. >> So that it's got so much more data to work with. >> That's right. >> As opposed to these industrial applications which are much smaller. >> That's right. >> Lets shift gears again, in terms of digital transformation one of the other often often said examples is when will the day come that GE doesn't sell just engines but actually sells propulsion miles? >> Yep. >> To really convert to a service. >> Yah. >> And that's ultimately where it needs to go cause it's kinda the next step beyond maintenance. >> Yep. >> How are you seeing that digital transformation play out? Do people kinda get it? Do the old line guys that run the jet engine see that this is really a better opportunity? >> Mhmm. >> Cause you guys have, and this is the broader theme, very uniques data and very unique expertise that you've aggregated across in the jet engines base all of your customers in all of the flying conditions and all of the types of airplanes where one individual mechanic or one individual airline just doesn't have an expertise. >> Yep. >> Huge opportunity. >> That's exactly right, and you can say the ame thing in our power space, in our power generation space. You can say the same thing in the one we we're just talking about, you know things like our inspection technology spaces. That's what makes the opportunity so powerful at GE and it's exactly the reason why I'm there because we can't get that any place else. It's both that history, it's that knowledge tied to the data, and very importantly it's what you hinted at that bares repeating is the customer relationships and the customer base upon which you can work together to aggregate all that data together. And if you look at what things are being done, they're already doing it. They are selling effectively, efficiency within a power plant. They are selling safety within certain systems, and again, coming back to why create a platform. Why create standardized applications? Why put these on top? Is if you standardize that, it gives you the ability to create derivative and adjacent products very easily, very efficiently, in ways that nobody else can match. >> Right, right. And I love the whole, for people who aren't familiar with the digital twin concept, but really leveraging this concept of a digital twin not to mimic kinda the macro level, but to mimic the micro level of a particular part unit engine in a particular ecosystem where you can now run simulations, you can run tests, you can do all kinds of stuff without actually having that second big piece of capital gear out there. >> That's right, and it's really hard to mimic those if you didn't start from the first phase of how did you design, build, and put it in to the field? >> Right, right. So, I want to shift gears a little bit just on to philosophical things that you've talked about and doing some research. One of them is that tech is the means to an end, and I know people talk about that all the time, but we're in the tech business. We're here in Silicon Valley. People get so enamored with the technology that they forget that it is a means to an end. It is now the end and to stay focused. >> That's right. >> How are you seeing that kind of play out in GE Digital? Obviously Bill built this humongous organization. I'm super impressed he was able to hire that many people within the last like four years in San Ramon. >> Yah. >> Originally I think just to build the internal software workings within the GE business units, but now really to go much further in terms of industrial internet connectivity, etc. So how do you see that really kinda playing out? >> Yah, I think one of my favorite quotes that I forget who it came from but I'll borrow it is, "Customers don't want to buy a one inch drill bit, they want to buy a one inch hole." >> Right. >> And I think there is both an art and a science and a degree of understanding that needs to go into what is the real customer problem that they are trying to solve for, and how do you peel the onion to understanding that versus just giving what they ask for? >> Right. >> And I think there's an organizational design to how do you get that right. So we had a visitor from Europe, the chairman of one of our large customers, who is going through this data driven journey, and they were at the stage of simply just collecting data off of their equipment. In this case it was elevators and escalators. And then understanding how was it being used? What does it mean for field maintenance, etcetera? But his guys wanted to move right to the end stage and they wanted to come in and say, "Hey, we want to build AI machine learning systems." And we spent some time talking through them about how this is a journey, how you step through it. And you could see the light bulb go off. That yes, I shouldn't try to jump right to that end state. There's a process of going through it, number one, and then the second thing we spent some time talking about was how he can think about structuring his company to create that bridge between the new technology people who are building and doing things in a certain way, and the people who have the legacy knowledge of how things are built, run, and operated? >> Right. >> And it's many times those organizational aspects that are as challenging or as big of barriers to getting it right as a specific technology. >> Oh, for sure, I mean people process and tech it's always the people that are the hard part. It's funny you bring up the elevator or escalator story, We did a show at Spunk many moons ago and we had a person on from an elevator company and the amazing insight they connected Spunk to it. They could actually tell the health of a building by the elevator traffic. >> Yah. >> Not the health of it's industrial systems and it's HVAC, but whether some of the tenants were in trouble. >> Yep. >> By watching the patterns that were coming off the elevator. While different kinda data driven value proposition than they had before. >> Yep. So again, if you could share some best practices really from your experiences with R and now kinda what you're doing at GE about how people should start those first couple of steps in being data driven beyond kinda the simple terms of getting your house in order, getting your data in order, where is it. >> Yah. >> Can you connect to it? Is it clean? >> Yah. >> How should they kinda think about prioritizing? Ho do they look for those easy wins cause at the end of the day it's always about the easiest wins to get the support to move to the next level. >> Yah, so I've sorta got a very simple Hilo play book and you know the first step is you have to know your business. And you have to really understand and prioritize. Again, sometimes I think about not the build, buy decision per say, but maybe the build consume decision. And again, where does it take the effort to go through hiring the people, understanding building those solutions, versus where is it just best to say, "I'm best to consume this product or service from somebody else." So that's number one, and you have to understand your business to do that, really well. The second one is, and we touched on this before, which is getting the right people in the right seats of the bus. Understanding who those citizen data scientists are versus who your developers are, who your analytics people are, who your machine learning people are, and making sure you've got the right people doing the right thing. >> Right. >> And then the last thing is to make sure, to understand that it is a journey. And we like to think about the journey that we go through in sort of three phases, right? Or sort of three swim lanes that could happen, both in parallel, but also as a journey. And we think about those as sort of basic BI and exploratory analytics. How do I learn is there any there there? And fundamentally you're saying, I want to ask and answer a question one time. Think about traditional business reporting. But once you've done that, your goal is always to put something into production. You say, "I've asked and answered once, now I want to ask and answer hundreds, millions, billions of times-- >> Right, right. >> In a row." And the goal is to codify that knowledge into a statistic, an analytic, a business role. And then, how do you start running those within a consistent system? And it's gonna do and force exactly what you just said. Do I have my data in one place? Is it scalable? Is it robust? Is it queryable? Where is it being consumed? How do I capture what's good or bad? And once I start to then define those, I can then start to standardize that within an application workflow and then move into, again, these complex, adaptive, intelligent systems powered by AI machine learning. And so, that's the way we think about it. Know your business, get the people right, understand that it's a systematic journey. >> Right, and then really bake it into the application. >> That's right. >> That's the thing, we don't want to make the same mistake that we do with big data, right? >> Yep. >> Just put it into the application. It's not this stand alone-- >> Correct. >> You know, kinda funny thing. >> Exactly. >> Alright, Jeff, I'll give you the last work before we wrap for the day. So you've been with GE now for about a year and a half, about halfway through 2018. What are your priorities for the next 12 months? If we sit down here, you know June one next year, what are you working on, what's kinda top of mind for you going forward? >> Yah, so top of the line for me, so as I mentioned sort of our first year here was really surveying the landscape, understanding how this company does business, where the opportunities are. Again, where those data driven work flows are. And we have an idea of of that with the core industrial. And so what we've been doing is getting that infrastructure right, getting those people right, getting the V ones of some very powerful systems set up. And so, what I'm gonna be doing over the next year or so is really working with them to scale those out within those core parts of the business, understand how we can create derivative and adjacent products over those, and then how we can take them to market more broadly based upon that, exactly as you said earlier, large scale data that we have available, that customer insight, and that knowledge of how we've been building the stuff, so. >> Alright, I look forward to it. >> I look forward to being back in a year. >> All right, Jeff Erhardt. Thanks for watching. I'm Jeff Frick. You're watching the CUBE from our Palo Alto studios. See you next time. (upbeat orchestra music)

>> Announcer: From Copenhagen, Denmark, it's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Hello and welcome back to the live CUBE coverage here in Copenhagen, Denmark, for KubeCon 2018, Kubernetes European conference. This is theCUBE, I'm John Furrier, my co-host Lauren Cooney here with Adrian Cockcroft who is the Vice President of Cloud Architecture and Strategy for Amazon Web Services, AWS. CUBE alumni, great to see you, a legend in the industry, great to have you on board today. Thanks for coming on. >> Thanks very much. >> Quick update, Amazon, we were at AWS Summit recently, I was at re:Invent last year, it gets bigger and bigger just continue to grow. Congratulations on successful great earnings. You guys posted last week, just continuing to show the scale and leverage that the cloud has. So, again, nothing really new here, cloud is winning and the model of choice. So you guys are doing a great job, so congratulations. Open source, you're handling a lot of that now. This community here, is all about driving cloud standards. >> Adrian: Yeah. >> Your guys position on that is? Standards are great, you do what customers want, as Andy Jassy always says, what's the update? I mean, what's new since Austin last year? >> Yeah, well, it's been great to be back on had a great video of us talking at Austin, it's been very helpful to get the message out of what we're doing in containers and what the open source team that I lead has been up to. It's been very nice. Since then we've done quite a lot. We were talking about doing things then, which we've now actually done and delivered on. We're getting closer to getting our Kubernetes service out, EKS. We hired Bob Wise, he started with us in January, he's the general manager of EKS. Some of you may know Bob has been working with Kubernetes since the early days. He was on the CNCF board before he joined us. He's working very hard, they have a team cranking away on all the things we need to do to get the EKS service out. So that's been major focus, just get it out. We have a lot of people signed up for the preview. Huge interest, we're onboarding a lot of people every week, and we're getting good feedback from people. We have demos of it in the booth here this week. >> So you guys are very customer-centric, following you guys closely as you know. What's the feedback that you're hearing and what are you guys ingesting from an intelligence standpoint from the field. Obviously, a new constituent, not new, but a major constituent is open source communities, as well as paying enterprise customers? What's the feedback? What are you hearing? I would say beyond tire kicking, there's general interest in what Kubernetes has enabled. What's Amazon's view of that? >> Yeah, well, open source in general is always getting a larger slice of what people want to do. Generally, people are trying to get off of their enterprise solutions and evolving into an open source space and then you kind of evolve from that into buying it as a service. So that's kind of the evolution from one trend, custom or enterprise software, to open source to as a service. And we're standing up all of these tools as a service to make them easier to consume for people. Just, everybody's happy to do that. What I'm hearing from customers is that that's what they're looking for. They want it to be easy to use, they want it to scale, they want it to be reliable and work, and that's what we're good at doing. And then they want to track the latest moves in the industry and run with the latest technologies and that's what Kubernetes and the CNCF is doing, gathering together a lot of technologies. Building the community around it, just able to move faster than we'd move on our own. We're leveraging all of those things into what we're doing. >> And the status of EKS right now is in preview? And the estimated timetable for GA? >> In the next few months. >> Next few months. >> You know, get it out then right now it's running in Oregon, in our Oregon data center, so the previews are all happening there. That gets us our initial thing and then everyone go okay, we want to in our other regions, so we have to do that. So another service we have is Fargate, which is basically say just here's a container, I want to run it, you don't have to declare a node or an instance to run it first. We launched that at re:Invent, that's already in production obviously, we just rolled that out to four regions. That's in Virginia, Oregon, Dublin and Ohio right now. A huge interest in Fargate, it lets you simplify your deployments a little bit. We just posted a new blog post that we have an open source blog, you can find if you want to keep up with what's going on with the open source team at AWS. Just another post this morning and it's a first pass at getting Fargate to work with Kubernetes using Virtual Kubelet which is a project that was kicked off by, it's an experimental project, not part of the core Kubernetes system. But it's running on the side. It's something that Microsoft came up with a little while ago. So we now have, we're working with them. We did a pull request, they accepted it, so that team and AWS and a few other customers and other people in the community, working together to provide you a way to start up Fargate as the underlying layer for provisioning containers underneath Kubernetes as the API for doing you know the management of that. >> So who do you work with mostly when you're working in open source? Who do you partner with? What communities are you engaging with in particular? >> It's all over. >> All over? >> Wherever the communities are we're engaging with them. >> Lauren: Okay, any particular ones that stand out? >> Other than CNCF, we have a lot of engagement with Apache Hadoop ecosystem. A lot of work in data science, there's many, many projects in that space. In AI and machine learning, we've sponsored, we've spend a lot of time working with Apache MXNet, we were also working off with TensorFlow by Torch and Caffe and there's a lot, those are all open source frameworks so there's lots of contributions there. In the serverless arena, we have our own SAM service application model. We've been open sourcing more of that recently ourselves and we're working with various other people. Across these different groups there's different conferences you go to, there's different things we do. We just sponsored Rails Conference. My team sponsors and manages most of the open source conference events we go to now. We just did RAILCON, we're doing a Rust conference, soon I think, there's Python conferences. I forget when all these are. There's a massive calendar of conferences that we're supporting. >> Make sure you email us that that list, we're interested actually in looking at what the news and action is. >> So the language ones, AltCon's our flagship one, we'll be top-level sponsor there. When we get to the U.S., CubeCon in Seattle, it's right there, it's two weeks after re:Invent. It's going to be much easier to manage. When we go to re:Invent it's like everyone just wants to take that week off, right. We got a week for everyone to recover and then it's in the hometown. >> You still have that look in your eyes when we interviewed you in Austin you came down, we both were pretty exhausted after re:Invent. >> Yeah, so we announced a bunch of things on Wednesday and Thursday and I had to turn it into a keynote by Tuesday and get everyone to agree. That's what was going on, that was very compressed. We have more time and all of the engineering teams that really want to be at an event like this, were right in the hometown for a lot. >> What's it like workin' at Amazon, I got to ask you it since you brought it up. I mean and you guys run hard at Amazon, you're releasing stuff with a pace that's unbelievable. I mean, I get blown away every year. Almost seems like, inhuman that that you guys can run at that pace. And earnings, obviously, the business results speak for themselves, what's it like there? I mean, you put your running shoes on, you run a marathon every day. >> It's lots of small teams working relatively independently and that scales and that's something other engineering organizations have trouble with. They build hierarchies that slow down. We have a really good engineering culture where every time you start a new team, it runs at its own speed. We've shown that as we add more and more resources, more teams, they are just executing. In fact, their accelerated, they're building on top of other things. We get to build higher and higher level abstractions to layer into. Just getting easier and easier to build things. We're accelerating our pace of innovation there's no slowing down. >> I was telling Jassy they're going to write a Harvard Business School case study on a lot of the management practices, but certainly the impact on the business side with the model that you guys do. But I got to ask you, on the momentum side, super impressed with SageMaker. I predicted on theCUBE at AWS Summit that that will be the fastest growing service. It will overtake Aurora, I think that is currently on stage, presented as the fastest growing service. SageMaker is really popular. Updates there, its role in the community. Obviously, Kubernete's a good fit for orchestrating things. We heard about CubeFlow, is an interesting model. What's going on with SageMaker how is it interplaying with Kubernetes? >> People that want to run, if you're running on-premise, cluster of GPU enabled machines then CubeFlow is a great way of doing that. You're on TensorFlow, that manages your cluster, you run CubeFlow on top. SageMaker is running at very low scale and like a lot of things we do at AWS, what you need to run an individual cluster for any one customer is different from running a multi-tenant service. SageMaker sits on top of ECS and it's now one of the largest generators of traffic to ECS which is Amazon's horizontally scaled, multi-tenant, cluster management system, which is now doing hundreds of millions of container launches a week. That is continuing to grow. We see Kubernetes as it's a more portable abstraction. It has some more, different layers of API's and a big community around it. But for the heavy lifting of running tens of thousands of containers in for a single application, we're still at the level where ECS does that every day and Kubernetes that's kind of the extreme case, where a few people are pushing it. It'll gradually grow scale. >> It's evolution. >> There's an evolution here. But the interesting things are, we're starting to get some convergence on some of the interfaces. Like the interfacing at CNA, CNA is the way you do networking on containers and there is one way of doing that, that is shared by everybody through CNA. EKS uses it, BCS uses it and Kubernetes uses it. >> And the impact of customers is what for that? What's the impact? >> It means the networking structures you want to set up will be the same. And the capabilities and the interfaces. But what happens on AWS is because it has a direct plug-in, you can hook it up to our accelerated networking infrastructure. So, AWS's instances right now, we've offloaded most of the network traffic processing. You're running 25 gigabits of traffic, that's quite a lot of work even for a big CPU, but it's handled by the the Nitro plug-in architecture we have, this in our latest instance type. So if you talked a bit about that at re:Invent but what you're getting is enormous, complete hypervisor offload at the core machine level. You get to use that accelerated networking. You're plugging into that interface. But that, if you want to have a huge number of containers on a machine and you're not really trying to drive very high throughput, then you can use Calico and we support that as well. So, multiple different ways but all through the same thing, the same plug-ins on both. >> System portability. You mentioned some stats, what's the numbers you mentioned? How many containers you're launching a week, hundreds of thousands? On ECS, our container platform that's been out for a few years, so hundreds of millions a week. It's really growing very fast. The containers are taking off everywhere. >> Microservices growth is, again that's the architecture. As architecture is a big part of the conversation what's your dialogue with customers? Because the modern software architecture in cloud, looks a lot different than what it was in the three layered approach that used to be the web stack. >> Yeah, and I think to add to that, you know we were just talking to folks about how in large enterprise organizations, you're still finding groups that do waterfall development. How are you working to kind of bring these customers and these developers into the future, per se? >> Yeah, that's actually, I spend about half my time managing the open source team and recruiting. The other half is talking to customers about this topic. I spend my time traveling around the world, talking at summits and events like this and meeting with customers. There's lots of different problems slowing people down. I think you see three phases of adoption of cloud, in general. One is just speed. I want to get something done quickly, I have a business need, I want to do it. I want machines in minutes instead of months, right, and that speeds everything up so you get something done quickly. The second phase is where you're starting to do stuff at scale and that's where you need cloud native. You really need to have elastic services, you can scale down as well as up, otherwise, you just end up with a lot of idle machines that cost you too much and it's not giving you the flexibility. The third phase we're getting into is complete data center shutdown. If you look at investing in a new data center or data center refresh or just opening an AWS account, it really doesn't make sense nowadays. We're seeing lots of large enterprises either considering it or well into it. Some are a long way into this. When you shut down the data center all of the backend core infrastructure starts coming out. So we're starting to see sort of mainframe replacement and the really critical business systems being replaced. Those are the interesting conversations, that's one of the areas that I'm particularly interested in right now and it's leading into this other buzzword, if you like, called chaos engineering. Which is sort of the, think of it as the availability model for cloud native and microservices. We're just starting a working group at CNCF around chaos engineering, is being started this week. So you can get a bit involved in how we can build some standards. >> That's going to be at Stanford? >> It's here, I mean it's a working group. >> Okay, online. >> The CNCF working group, they are wherever the people are, right. >> So, what is that conversation when you talk about that mainframe kind of conversation or shut down data centers to the cloud. What is the key thing that you promote, up front, that needs to get done by the by the customer? I mean, obviously you have the pillars, the key pillars, but you think about microservices it's a global platform, it's not a lift and shift situation, kind of is, it shut down, but I mean not at that scale. But, security, identity, authentication, there's no perimeter so you know microservices, potentially going to scale. What are the things that you promote upfront, that they have to do up front. What are the up front, table stake decisions? >> For management level, the real problem is people problems. And it's a technology problem somewhere down in the weeds. Really, if you don't get the people structures right then you'll spend forever going through these migrations. So if you sort of bite the bullet and do the reorganization that's needed first and get the right people in the right place, then you move much faster through it. I say a lot of the time, we're way upstream of picking a technology, it's much more about understanding the sort of DevOps, Agile and the organizational structures for these more cellular based organizations, you know, AWS is a great example of that. Netflix are another good example of that. Capital One is becoming a good example of that too. In banking, they're going much faster because they've already gone through that. >> So they're taking the Amazon model, small teams. Is that your general recommendation? What's your general recommendation? >> Well, this is the whole point of microservices, is that they're built by these small teams. It's called Conway's law, which says that the code will end up looking like the team, the org structure that built it. So, if you set up a lots of small teams, you will end up with microservices. That's just the way it works, right. If you try to take your existing siloed architecture with your long waterfall things, it's very hard not to build a monolith. Getting the org structure done first is right. Then we get into kind of the landing zone thing. You could spend years just debating what your architecture should be and some people have and then every year they come back, and it's changing faster than they can decide what to do. That's another kind of like analysis paralysis mode you see some larger enterprises in. I always think just do it. What's the standard best practice, layout my accounts like this, my networks like this, my structures we call it landing zone. We get somebody up to speed incredibly quickly and it's the beaten path. We're starting to build automation around these on boarding things, we're just getting stuff going. >> That's great. >> Yeah, and then going back to the sort of chaos engineering kind of idea, one of the first things I should think you should put into this infrastructure is the disaster recovery automation. Because if that gets there before the apps do, then the apps learn to live with the chaos monkeys and things like that. Really, one of the first apps we installed at Netflix was Chaos Monkey. It wasn't added later, it was there when you arrived. Your app had to survive the chaos that was in the system. So, think of that as, it used to be disaster recovery was incredibly expensive, hard to build, custom and very difficult to test. People very rarely run through their disaster recovery testing data center fail over, but if you build it in on day one, you can build it automated. I think Kubernetes is particularly interesting because the API's to do that automation are there. So we're looking at automating injecting failure at the Kubernetes level and also injecting into the underlying machines that are running Good Maze, like attacking the control plane to make sure that the control plane recovery works. I think there's a lot we can do there to automate it and make it into a low-cost, productized, safe, reliable thing, that you do a lot. Rather than being something that everyone's scared of doing that. >> Or they bolted on after they make decisions and the retrofit, pre-existing conditions into a disaster recovery. Which is chaotic in and of itself. >> So, get the org chart right and then actually get the disaster recovery patterns. If you need something highly available, do that first, before the apps turn up. >> Adrian, thanks for coming on, chaos engineering, congratulations and again, we know you know a little about Netflix, you know that environment, and been big Amazon customer. Congratulations on your success, looking forward to keeping in touch. Thanks for coming on and sharing the AWS perspective on theCUBE. I'm John Furrier, Lauren Cooney live in Denmark for KubeCon 2018 part of the CNC at the Cloud Native Compute Foundation. We'll back with more live coverage, stay with us. We'll be right back. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: Live from the Computer History Museum, in Mountain View, California, it's theCUBE! Covering DevNet Create 2018, brought to you by Cisco. >> Hello and welcome back to theCUBE's exclusive live coverage here in Mountain View, California, the heart of Silicon Valley at the Computer History Museum for Cisco's DevNet Create. I'm here with Lauren Cooney, the analyst, for the Wikibon team and our next guest is I'm proud to have Guy Kawasaki here on theCUBE. Guy is, goes without mentioning, a legend in the industry. Currently, the chief evangelist for Canva author of Art of the Start, a real pioneer in entrepreneurship, tech entrepreneurship, tech evangelism. Guy, great to see you, thanks for joining us. >> Thank you. >> Among other things, you've done a lot of amazing things. Thanks for joining us. >> What better place to be. >> The tech culture now is so mainstream. You're seeing Facebook CEO draw in more audience than a Supreme Court justice. >> More people watched the Senate hearings yesterday-- >> He probably has more impact than a Supreme Court justice. >> He's running the world. The tech culture has really grown to be a mainstream...in the early days the computer industry when it was really the beginning of the revolution, the PC revolution, Macintosh and the PC, you were there. So much has happened. I mean, as you look back, I mean looked out at the young guns coming up, what's your view, what's your reaction to all this? You have these (mumbles) moments. >> What's your take on all this? >> I suppose many people would say, we never thought it would get to this point. It's turned destructive and negative and all that. But it's a short snapshot of time and, first of all, can we put the genie back in the bottle? No, so it doesn't really matter. But, all things considered, the democratization of computing, everybody has a computer, whether it's a phone or a computer. The democratization of the transfer of information, obviously some information may be faint, may be not what you like. But would we go back to a time where we send things by fax machines? Not at all, I mean all things considered, >> it's a great time to be alive. >> Democratization goes through these waves, democratization with the PC, democratization with the internet, democratization of web 2.0 and social media. The beginning of social media, about 15 years, maybe 10, whatever way you might want to mark it. And now democratization with data and AI is interesting. So you're having these waves of democratization. It's going to take some time to sort out. I mean, as you look at the tech trends, how do you make sense of it, or what do you get excited about? How do you surf that wave? (chuckling) If you're going to surf the wave, the big wave coming, which some say is block chain and cryptocurrency and decentralization. What's the wave that you're on, that's the question? >> To use a surfing analogy, if we're going to go down that rat hole, a good, experienced surfer knows where to sit, can look out and say, I'll take the fourth wave. And I'll sit in the right place, turn around at the right time, paddle at the right time, you know, all that. And then there's people like me. We sit in the same place, and every 15 minutes, the right wave comes along and catches us. Those are the two theories. >> I think if only predicting tech trends were as easy as predicting surfing. >> Interviewer: Timing's everything. >> Timing is everything, luck is a lot to do with it. We only learn about the Apples and the Googles and the Ciscos and the Facebooks and the Pinterests and the Instagrams. I think you think, well, there are these really smart people and they can predict the trend or cause a trend. I think it's more the game of big numbers where if you have enough surfers in the water, somebody's going to catch a wave. (chuckling) And then you can say, yeah, I knew he was the best surfer. >> But really, right place, right time. >> And you got to know what a wave looks like. >> Guy: Well, yeah. >> You got to be, like, okay, am I in a tide pool >> or am I on a boogie board. >> And to your point, you've got to be in the water. [John] Yeah, yeah. >> You can't be standing on the shore, saying I'm going to catch a wave. You have to be in the water, and if you're in the water, >> nine times out of ten you're going to get crushed. (chuckling) >> If you're not out in front of that next wave, you're driftwood. In surfing, people will jump and try to take your wave, this sounds like the tactic of the whole industry. >> Guy: Exactly, right, right. >> What waves do you see that are coming, in your mind. You've seen a lot of waves in your day. I mean, right now, what wave is exciting you right now. >> If you look at the waves, what's out there? >> What I learn about that is, you can only declare your intelligence and victory after the fact, right. I can tell you the internet of things is big. I can tell you that social media is big. I can tell you that computing is big. Problem is I could tell you that because I know it's big now. Can I tell you what's in the future, no. If I could...first of all I wouldn't tell you. (chuckling) So I think in a rare moment of humility it's the law of big numbers. Infinite monkeys typing at keyboards, somebody's going to come up with Beethoven. >> I want to ask you a question because I get asked this question a lot, Hey, John, you've been around a while. I want to catch that next big wave, I want to be in the next Google, I want to be rich on stock options. (Guy chuckling) I said, a lot of times the best companies where you take the most advantage of is when no one else wants to work there or no one yet knows it. We really can't say, Oh, I'm going to get rich on that company because by that time it's either too late and people are chasing the wrong thing. >> Guy: Absolutely. >> How do you give that same advice to someone? >> Listen, you're talking to a guy who quit Apple twice and turned down Steve once. So how smart could I be? (John chuckling) Now we can say Apple is the most valuable company in the world, you should have stayed there. Well, thank you very much, thanks for tell me now. I think it's really... I don't want to be too dramatic, but I could almost build a case that you should invest in or work for the most dumb-ass idea you heard of. Because at any given point-- >> Airbnb, we're going to rent out mattresses >> and give out cereal. >> Very good example, Airbnb. Let's face it, if somebody told you Airbnb, before there was Airbnb, you would say, So you're telling me that I'm going to rent a room from somebody I met on the internet, and I'm going to sleep in that person's house, hoping he's not a murderer or pedophile. On the flip side, you're saying, I'm going to rent out my room to someone who I hope is not a pedophile or an ax murderer. Or ebay...I'm going to buy this printer from 3000 miles away and I'm going to assume it works. Or I'm going to sell my good printer to someone 3000 miles away and assume that he's not going to say he never got it or that it didn't work and he wants a refund. So if you go down the line of all these ideas, you'd have to say at the time, nobody. Even take an extreme: Zappos. If you told me that women would buy shoes without trying them on, seeing them, smelling them, and touching them, I would tell you you're crazy. You'd buy a book that way. You'd buy a CD that way, you'd buy a DVD. Would you buy shoes, would you buy shoes without trying them on. >> I totally would. (laughing) Now I can say that. >> To Zappos's credit, some of the way it made that work is it offered shipping back for free. So there was really no risk. But I would have been a skeptic about Zappos. >> Well, it was one of those things for me, Zappos, where they shipped in one day so I could get them immediately, try them on and if they didn't work, I could ship them back and get a different size. It was no big deal, it was very low overhead. So that's one of the reasons that that worked. But I think when you mention all of these great things like Ebay and Airbnb, it's really part of the sharing economy with people really wanting to share the goodness of their goods with other people that need them. >> It's just really connecting those folks. >> Places like Oakland and San Francisco, where there are certain streets where you line up and you just get in the next car with a stranger, and you go to San Francisco with them. >> Lauren: Yeah. >> And it's not computerized or anything. It's just trust. >> I did that once and it was frightening. (laughs) You never know who the driver is going to be or how they're going to drive. >> But you did it. >> I did it. >> People do it every day. >> I know. >> I'm amazed. >> I did it once, but... (laughing) >> Let's ask you a question. What's the craziest idea that you've seen that worked and the craziest idea that didn't work. >> Let's start with the easy one. I had a company called garage.com, and we were a venture capitalist investment bank, so we got pitched all the time. One day, a guy comes in and says, I'm going to build... A dirigible hotel over San Francisco. So you stay in the dirigible. Another person said, We're going to build a geodesic dome over Los Angeles. And I can't remember if it was to keep the air pollution in or out. I'll just tell you one really great one. These people were from Seagate so they had Cray, they worked for Seagate. And they say, We have this patent-pending, curb-jumping, patent-pending whatever technology so that if you drop your laptop with your hard disk, the head won't crash into the hard disk and ruin the hard disk. And at the time, this was 15 years ago, that was a great idea, right. It wasn't solid state. Heads crashing into hard disks. >> Moving parts. >> Seagate, so this is a great idea. Every hard disk in every laptop should be like it. So we get in the car, we go to their office, and the receptionist says, Oh, they're running late because they're on the phone with IBM. IBM is really interested in using this technology for the IBM PC laptop. Keep us waiting, keep us waiting. And they get out, and, Yeah, IBM was really, they're so excited, they're ready to move. And I, like, we're really excited. And finally I said, Give me the jist, what is your technology, is it like some special chip that detects gravitational fall, it's too fast, it's got to be hitting the ground so it parks the head because it recognizes motion or whatever. And I swear to God, I swear to God, he brings out this piece of foam and he says this is military spec foam. So we take your hard disk, we put this foam thing around it, and we put it in the laptop. And I swear to God, I was having an out of body experience. >> You're telling me-- >> I drove all the way here-- >> That your proprietary technology is putting foam around the hard disk, and IBM is excited by this foam. So welcome to my life. >> So what are you up to now. Talk about your evangelism. I know you're a (mumbles) Mercedes. You have a bunch of things going on. You've been very prolific in social media. You were on the suggested user list from day one on Twitter. >> No, I wasn't. >> Oh, no, you weren't, that's right. But you have a zillion followers. >> That's why I have never forgiven Twitter for that. >> I thought they put you on. >> Guy: No. >> Okay, I stand corrected. >> You had to be an actress. >> Some tech people got on there, I know. >> Guy: Yeah. >> But I was not on. >> There you go. >> Measly 20,000 or so. But you got a million and a half followers active. You've really been prolific in a good way. (laughing) Engaging with communities. >> Yeah. >> What have you learned and how do you view this next generation of social because you're seeing the Facebooks, you're seeing LinkedIn. There's siloed platforms. Is there hope? What's your take on it, is it going to grow? >> I've come to the point where I always believe things are never as good or as bad as they seem. So I don't think it's as bad as people say. If these social media sites are selling my data, they're going to go broke selling my data. (laughs) I don't know how you could look at my data. First of all, I never look at ads, so go ahead, sell my data. I'm not going to look at the ad anyway. It doesn't matter. I think the ability to spread ideas, arguably good or bad, the ability to spread ideas with social media, all things considered, is better. It's going to be abused and all that. My father was a state senator in Honolulu, and we were into banner ads way before anybody else. Banner was literally a piece of cloth with his name on it that you staple to the side of a building, saying Vote for Duke Kawasaki. That was the nature of banner advertisement back then. Do I think that social media targeting and all that for sales is a good thing? Yes, I do. If you're a real estate broker, and you wanted to reach people who live in Silicon Valley, age 50 to 70, female or male or whatever, in such-and-such an income bracket, how else can you do it but Facebook? >> It's good and bad. >> That's why Facebook is so successful. >> The metadata is all about the clan and the culture, and I think putting ideas out there is a way to send your ideas into the ether, make it happen. So, that's key. Now, we're here at a developer conference, so one of the things that's also a big part of this community is the notion of how open source has become a tier one citizen, and it's really running the world. Which is also grounded in community as well. You have this ethos of community, ethos of software open. >> I believe in open source. I believe that the more intelligent people pounding on your stuff, the better it is. I'm an author, and what I do is, speaking in the sense of open source. So right now I'm about 80% done with my book. I put out a post on social media saying anybody that wants to review my book, test my book, send me your information. So I do this, I cut it off at about 280 people. I send them the Word document, the entire Word document of my book. Does that mean they can take it and publish it in China tomorrow, yes. But, from that, I get hundreds and hundreds of comments. >> John: Wisdom of the crowds, self-editing. >> Yeah, and they point out stuff that I never would have noticed because I'm too close to at this point. So is there a downside, yes. Is there piracy, yes. Arguably, would those pirates have bought the book anyway? No. >> Our content's all free. We're really big in China because they actually take it and translate it in the native language. >> Guy: Which you would never have done. >> With all the jargon, you can't hire a-- >> Guy: You would never have done that. >> Yeah, exactly. >> Guy, great to catch up with you. Thanks for coming on. What are you working on now, you mentioned the book, what's the book about? >> The book is called Wise Guy, and it's a compilation of the stories that have influenced my life. So it's not an auto-biography. It is not a memoir. Have you ever heard of the book Chicken Soup for the Soul? >> John: Yeah, yeah. >> You know, it's inspirational stories. This is miso soup for the soul. (laughing) So I'm working on that, TV evangelism with Canva is just going gangbusters. Brand ambassadors for Mercedes Benz. I'm on the board of directors of a company called Cheeze with a zee. It's an anti-social photo-sharing and vidoo-sharing app. And that's it. >> You've been an inspiration to many, great job of the year has been a big fan of your work. Thanks for coming on theCUBE. Really appreciate it. >> Thank you. >> Guy Kawasaki here inside theCUBE. We're at Devnet Create. This is Cisco's cloud developer conference. Different from their core Devnet Cisco Networking developer, and this is all about dev ops open source. And this is theCUBE bringing you all the action here in Mountain View, California. We'll be right back with more after this short break.

>> Announcer: Live from the Computer History Museum in Mountain View, California, it's theCUBE covering DevNet Create 2018. Brought to you by Cisco. >> Hello everyone, and welcome back to theCUBE's live coverage of Cisco's DevNet Create here in Mountain View in the heart of Silicon Valley. I'm John Furrier, my co-cost, Lauren Cooney, our next guest is Susie Wee, is vice president and CTO of Cisco DevNet. This is her event, DevNet is a Cisco's developer team, conference, community, DevNet created a cloud native, much more dev ops oriented. Our second year covering it, it's only a year and a half old. The creator with her team, Susie, great to have you back. >> Great, it's great to be back. >> What a success, again. You guys are learning, we heard from the keynote that you made some changes, heard some feedback, you added more cooler elements. But this is about technology enablement tools, education, and then fun, and having people exchange information. How's it going? What's the upkeep? >> It's going great. So we're really excited to have our second DevNet Create, and what happened was last year, what we've always tried to do with DevNet overall is to make sure that we had hands-on material because people want to code, people want to learn about the newest technologies. We also made sure that the content of the first DevNet Create was from Cisco, but also from the leading players in the community. And so we got feedback from last year on how to improve it for this year, and basically they just wanted more hands on, and so we've actually expanded from having three parallel workshops to eight parallel workshops, where just folks can get hands-on and code. We continued to have both Cisco content as well as community content from leaders in the field. When we got feedback last year, what happened was we were collecting the feedback. The people who responded, we asked a few questions, and we said: Did you feel that this was useful for you? Did you feel that you were learning about modern tools and technologies that would help you in your career? Would you come back again? The strangest thing that happened is like 100% of people said that they were learning about topics that are modern and they need for their careers. And 100% of them said they would come back again. And I'm like, is it still 100%? 'Cause one person says no, it's not 100%. And so to everyone that responded, they wanted to come back, so we just gave them more of what they wanted. >> It's great, it feels great. You've got a good vibe, but I think there's some real interesting things. We talked last time about how the cloud native world connecting with the commercial liability of Cisco. Cisco is not a small company, they invented routing as we know it, they connect the Internet, and you had that kind of ops networking culture with this new programmable Internet kind of coming together, so there's some notable news you guys had here, why I was impressed by. One is these business exchange, or business ecosystem. Talk about some of the things that you guys are doing now as a result of these two worlds coming together. It's not just speeds that feed tech goodness, just like business value. Money making! >> (laughing) Just to go a little bit more into that, what happens is you kind of have your world of infrastructure, and you have developers who are writing cloud apps, it's so easy to deploy, and really get a lot of value out there. But then you have the world of real companies, real data, real existing infrastructure, enterprise data, smart cities that you want to bring online and everything there, and there's a new type of app that's come to play, and there's a new type of app that of course, needs to work in the cloud, but also needs to couple in with the real world and physical things, and enterprise data. And so that brings rise to a whole new set of applications and new ways to do business. So in terms of what we're doing with that, as someone writes this kind of an app, it's not easy, just like download it onto my phone. It's actually, how do I couple that with the location based infrastructure? How do I couple that with enterprise and hybrid cloud data? And so what we have now is a business exchange, an ecosystem exchange where we can bring those applications up, where if someone is using Cisco infrastructure, we have partners around the world who install and manage solutions that they put for their customers. And we want to show them these are the applications that work together with those products. These are the solutions that you can deliver, so we want to take the applications that our developers are writing and make it available to our partners, to let them use our go to market that we have around the world. >> We get the technical developer ecosystem, and you have the business ecosystem, so that's an indicator that there's some movement and growth. Where is it coming from? Where are you seeing the highlights here? >> Yeah, so in terms of the movement and growth, what happens is we're concentrated on technical enablement for the first few years of DevNet. But clearly, the reason to do the technical enablement is to do that business pull through. Where do we see the growth? So, what happens is everyone in the world wants to digitize, right? So people want to take their manufacturing lines, they want to digitize them. People who have cities want to offer newer experiences that are still kind of leveraging the old, but then providing a top-notch experience for that. So we have people that are in cities who want to use our infrastructure, but also have innovative applications to give to their folks. We have partners around the world who want to not only provide infrastructure, but to provide interesting solutions and experiences. So it's really interesting to see the hunger and the desire now for people to use applications in all different ways, and we're trying to really package it up for them. >> So you're actually stitching these applications together and then packaging them up for consumption for the solution? Is that what you're looking at? >> Yeah, because everybody's buying. Everybody needs a network, everybody has something that exists, but they want to go above it. That boundary between applications and infrastructure is kind of blurring, right? And what an application can do when it's really coupled in to an infrastructure with APIs is completely new, and they want to play, they want to innovate. They don't want to just do the same old thing, and they want to kind of unleash the power, get the value from all of the application development that's going on. >> I think that's great. One of the things I saw from the keynote was the numbers in terms of your exponential growth over the past four years and also the number of folks who continuously visit the site. I think that's awesome. Can you kind of give folks that are looking to build communities any tips or tricks? >> Yeah, and actually, Lauren, you were with us early on. You saw when I was begging for Cisco to have a developer community, and so we didn't have any members at that time. But yeah, we've grown to 480,000, actually 485,000 registered developers. We have 60,000 active monthly users. >> Lauren: That's great. >> So they are really doing stuff. But yeah, in terms of what it takes to grow that community, I think really the key is that my incentive, my goals, my mission, which I shared, is that we want to make developers successful. We want to make our partners in that broader ecosystem and our customers successful. It's not actually my job to sell products. Obviously any solution that's written around APIs for a product will sell products, but my job is to make the ecosystem successful. So I think the key is just constantly keeping their best interest at heart, and having a model where obviously it will pull through the right business for Cisco. >> You've got great self-awareness, and I think that's important to understand what they're trying to do, but also you bring a lot to the table. Cisco has massive presence and enterprises in businesses, whether it's service providers, down to the small medium enterprise to large enterprises. As you look across Cisco, you bring the goods to the party, so to speak. How do you balance that, and what's your approach? So you're taking more of the programmable net ops, which I love, by the way, we talked about that in Barcelona at Cisco Live. You can bring a lot to the table, but you don't want to firehose the developers with all this Cisco stuff. How are you blending that together? What's your approach? >> This is a great point. So what we have to do is we have to understand who our audience is, and we need to bring the right material and speak the language for that audience. And to give you an example, is that we've had you at DevNet Create, we've had you at the DevNet Zones at Cisco Live. When we go to Cisco Live and we have our developer conferences, that is the group in the audience that knows Cisco. They're getting certified, they know how to deploy infrastructure, it's a tremendous community. We have millions of people around the world who basically run, deploy, manage these solutions. >> John: Over years of experience, too. >> Oh, decades of experience, yes, and certification, mastery, expertise. >> They're the network nerds. >> They are the network nerds! (laughs) >> Moving packets around, but now it's changed. >> And the way that we talk to them is different, because what we present to them is how can you automate your infrastructure? How can you scale and use the newest tools? How can you get observability and insights from that infrastructure itself? And then, here's the software tools that you need to use, and here's the APIs you need to know about. Let us understand your problems, and let's work on this together. Now, the types of platforms that we expose and the APIs will be for networking, it'll be for security, it will be for compute, it'll be in many of these areas. Then we come over to DevNet Create, and what we had to do was create a separate venue to hit app developers, cloud native developers, they're not going to Cisco Live. They're actually going to developer conferences, they're in the Bay Area, they're all around the world. They don't think of Cisco or even of infrastructure in what they do, necessarily. >> It's a different culture. >> It's a different culture. And we actually had to re-jigger our vocabulary, we had to re-jigger what we present to them, because when they think of IOS, they don't think of a network operating system, Cisco's iOS operating system, they think of a mobile operating system. So we've actually had to even retrain ourselves to show this is the value that we provide to application developers, here's the platforms and the APIs that matter to you. Here's the right level of abstraction of what would be relevant to an app developer, and really speak to them. And DevNet Create is a separate venue created for that reason. >> And timing is everything, as we know. The wind's at your back because you've got Kubernetes, the container madness, the standardization of contains, which is not new, the Google guy was on earlier talking about containers. You've got micro services, you've got Istio, which is where you're partnering with Google, so this is a new, real emerging tech area that's a nice glue layer between the cultures. How are you handling that? Do you agree? >> Oh my goodness. >> What's your focus on? >> Yes, it's so amazing. So the whole world's in containers and micro services, is shifting how applications are developed. We actually used it within our own system, where we wanted to use the newest technologies, we saw the benefits of working in container and microservices based architecture, to not write monolithic apps but to really be able to compose and reuse services. So we had to go through that change, but what we saw is that when you're dealing with enterprise data, confidential data, customer data, and then public cloud data and everything there, there's a lot of thinking about how to write a cloud app that is a hybrid cloud app that uses OnPrim and public cloud and the best of both worlds. And the world of containers is interesting because suddenly it's the performance of your application, it depends even more on the network. Getting security of how your containers are built up, how they're connected, how they're spinning up in different places, you need that consistency. So having the whole tool of how do you now deploy containers on OnPrim resources as well as public cloud based resources is tricky, and you need to build in that security into the infrastructure itself, and then provide the right abstraction for the developers with tools like Istio. So we're partnered up with Google. It's been a fantastic collaboration where we start with Google's leadership in just cloud native development and what they have to do to scale, and then take together the problems and the opportunities of real enterprises, of real cities, and things there. And as Allen said this morning, it's complicated. It's not that easy. There's a whole new set of problems that we need to deal with, and this partnership is amazing at putting that together. >> Makes the network more important. >> Makes the network more important, yes. >> Awesome, so now talk about what you're doing for incentives. Obviously, you've got a great posture to the marketplace, love how you're doing it, you're bringing two worlds together, bringing a lot to the table, but now you've got to keep people motivated and keep them incentives. Couple things you announced on stage, DevNet Solutions Plus, which is much more curated set of approved rockstar developers or apps that can get on a price list. That's like a lottery ticket. It's like the golden ticket for a developer. There's real value there, right? You can't invite everybody, but you got to do some QAing, but talk about some of these incentive programs you have. >> Absolutely. So what happens is once again, a company like Cisco has an entire community and ecosystem of people and places of infrastructure around the world, and they're looking to differentiate, they're looking to have interesting offerings as well. They're very relevant, because an app developer today needs to figure out how can they make money, how can they take all of everything they've invested in software and bring it to a business value. And so what we're doing is actually coupling that app developer with the entire Cisco channel and the Cisco partners that are out there, and then letting their applications come forward. So when you get something onto... The way that it works is that Cisco has its price list, partners around the world can create solutions that they deliver with those products. But in addition to Cisco's products, what we can do is put on a software and ISV's products onto there, and we're adding it on to the Cisco price list. It's a whole new type of app store. (laughs) But it's another way to go to market to get into these places. >> You're seeing some early returns in terms of the types of ISVs that are coming into the tables, or pattern to the match, or see more network-centric? Who are some of the kinds of developers? What's the make up look like? >> Yeah, so it's really a combination. So what happens is there's the set of applications that are built on infrastructure, surprisingly. So it builds on a collaboration, or a unified communication infrastructure, things that are built on a UCS, like a compute infrastructure. Things that need the network in a mission critical way. So like trading applications, right? You need that network to work, the performance of the application needs to be coupled, so then people tend to buy a kit of here's the software, here's the hardware that makes it all work, I'm buying infrastructure, I want to buy these together. And so it's really kind of putting that bundle of value together and then letting that sell. And I talked to our partners around the world, it's an amazing ecosystem. And when they can actually connect to the world of software developers and this ecosystem in a way that it helps them differentiate their business, it helps bring the app developer money and a business opportunity. It's a whole new level of scale. It's incredible. >> You'll be pushing video apps on there, too. >> Susie: Absolutely. >> CUBE videos. >> CUBE videos, there we go. (laughing) Absolutely. >> Interesting times. Awesome. Anything you want to add? >> Yeah, definitely. One of the things I was wondering about is that with this whole app ecosystem and the partners and the things along those lines, what are the apps that you're seeing that you actually never expected to see? >> Well, some are ones that we actually did expect, or we hoped for them, but the fact that they're coming through is another case. There's a set of applications that are built, for example, around contact centers. Contact centers are customer care, it's the way that people are interacting, right? And there's a whole kind of communications infrastructure around that, it's how people are answering phones, offering services, knowing what to do, so how you build those solutions together. There's a set of healthcare applications, so when you're going into healthcare, your patient monitoring devices versus your guest Wi-Fi services are different, so the kinds of solutions that you can provide there are key. There's actually a great thing in terms of indoor location based services. So we have Meraki and CMX where your Wi-Fi infrastructure not only provides wireless connectivity but gives you indoor location proximity. There's actually a company here called Map Wise, which has built kind of a wayfinding application on top. When I was at Web Summit, then they had Cisco infrastructure for putting up the conference, then they had their application to help people navigate throughout the conference, and they came in, and I actually spoke to Matthew, who's here, and he was like yeah, I had to learn because I had to go in early. They had to set up the network, and then I'm a software guy, I had to get my app to work on that network. I hadn't really thought about how to do that before. Right, so you're starting to couple these apps into that. >> Stu: New use cases. >> These are new use cases, and so much value. >> Yeah, and it's good that you get the terminology, it's a language issue, right? So you got to get the languages nailed down. All right, final question for you. What's the bumper sticker here? What's the phrase? I heard you on stage, create, connect, secure. What's the current DevNet Create tagline? >> So it is: Connect to Create. And so in one port, it was about connecting the world, providing that connection, and that's what we've done over the last 25 years. And over the next 25, even more things will be connected, but it's really about the solutions that we can build together as a team, and there's an ecosystem now that you have APIs that are exposed. You can build machine learning, and artificial intelligence together with world leading connectivity, together with world leading cloud companies. And when you bring all those together, you can have entirely new types of experiences that we can do, so it's Connect to Create. Along with that, actually comes the need for security and protection, and so that fabric needs to not only connect to create, but also connect and protect to create. And we think that by building that into the infrastructure as well, we can help app developers to secure their customers' data and to secure their users themselves, access, and all sorts of things. >> I love the concept of co-creation, really great collaboration model, and you guys are doing a great job. Congratulations on driving this developer program, and programs now, from a handful of renegades, now to a big organization, or growing organization. >> We're still lean, but our pack is growing. (laughing) >> You don't got to be a rocket scientist to know they're going to be doubling down on this. Cisco, cracking the code on the developer forum about learning the languages, knowing how to lead into the right cultures and bring them together, and have the right technology, enablement, and Susie, the creator, a part of the team, member of Cisco team for DevNet. Thanks for coming on and sharing, appreciate it. >> Susie: Thank you so much. >> Be right back with more live coverage after this short break. (upbeat music)