(upbeat music) >> Hi, everyone. Welcome to theCUBE's coverage of International Women's Day. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. As part of International Women's Day, we're featuring some of the leading women in business technology from developer to all types of titles and to the executive level. And one topic that's really important is called Getting a Seat at the Table, board makeup, having representation at corporate boards, private and public companies. It's been a big push. And former technology operating executive and corporate board member, she's a board machine Sue Barsamian, formerly with HPE, Hewlett Packard. Sue, great to see you. CUBE alumni, distinguished CUBE alumni. Thank you for coming on. >> Yes, I'm very proud of my CUBE alumni title. >> I'm sure it opens a lot of doors for you. (Sue laughing) We're psyched to have you on. This is a really important topic, and I want to get into the whole, as women advance up, and they're sitting on the boards, they can implement policy and there's governance. Obviously public companies have very strict oversight, and not strict, but like formal. Private boards have to operate, be nimble. They don't have to share all their results. But still, boards play an important role in the success of scaled up companies. So super important, that representation there is key. >> Yes. >> I want to get into that, but first, before we get started, how did you get into tech? How did it all start for you? >> Yeah, long time ago, I was an electrical engineering major. Came out in 1981 when, you know, opportunities for engineering, if you were kind, I went to Kansas State as an undergrad, and basically in those days you went to Texas and did semiconductors. You went to Atlanta and did communication satellites. You went to Boston or you went to Silicon Valley. And for me, that wasn't too hard a choice. I ended up going west and really, I guess what, embarked on a 40 year career in Silicon Valley and absolutely loved it. Largely software, but some time on the hardware side. Started out in networking, but largely software. And then, you know, four years ago transitioned to my next chapter, which is the corporate board director. And again, focused on technology software and cybersecurity boards. >> For the folks watching, we'll cut through another segment we can probably do about your operating career, but you rose through the ranks and became a senior operating executive at the biggest companies in the world. Hewlett Packard Enterprise, Hewlett Packard Enterprise and others. Very great career, okay. And so now you're kind of like, put that on pause, and you're moving on to the next chapter, which is being a board director. What inspired you to be a board director for multiple public companies and multiple private companies? Well, how many companies are you on? But what's the inspiration? What's the inspiration? First tell me how many board ships you're on, board seats you're on, and then what inspired you to become a board director? >> Yeah, so I'm on three public, and you are limited in terms of the number of publics that you can do to four. So I'm on three public, and I'm on four private from a tech perspective. And those range from, you know, a $4 billion in revenue public company down to a 35 person private company. So I've got the whole range. >> So you're like freelancing, I mean, what is it like? It's a full-time job, obviously. It's a lot of work involved. >> Yeah, yeah, it's. >> John: Why are you doing it? >> Well, you know, so I retired from being an operating executive after 37 years. And, but I loved, I mean, it's tough, right? It's tough these days, particularly with all the pressures out there in the market, not to mention the pandemic, et cetera. But I loved it. I loved working. I loved having a career, and I was ready to back off on, I would say the stresses of quarterly results and the stresses of international travel. You have so much of it. But I wasn't ready to back off from being involved and engaged and continuing to learn new things. I think this is why you come to tech, and for me, why I went to the valley to begin with was really that energy and that excitement, and it's like it's constantly reinventing itself. And I felt like that wasn't over for me. And I thought because I hadn't done boards before I retired from operating roles, I thought, you know, that would fill the bill. And it's honestly, it has exceeded expectations. >> In a good way. You feel good about where you're at and. >> Yeah. >> What you went in, what was the expectation going in and what surprised you? And were there people along the way that kind of gave you some pointers or don't do this, stay away from this. Take us through your experiences. >> Yeah, honestly, there is an amazing network of technology board directors, you know, in the US and specifically in the Valley. And we are all incredibly supportive. We have groups where we get together as board directors, and we talk about topics, and we share best practices and stories, and so I underestimated that, right? I thought I was going to, I thought I was going to enter this chapter where I would be largely giving back after 37 years. You've learned a little bit, right? What I underestimated was just the power of continuing to learn and being surrounded by so many amazing people. When, you know, when you do, you know, multiple boards, your learnings are just multiplied, right? Because you see not just one model, but you see many models. You see not just one problem, but many problems. Not just one opportunity, but many opportunities. And I underestimated how great that would be for me from a learning perspective and then your ability to share from one board to the other board because all of my boards are companies who are also quite close to each other, the executives collaborate. So that has turned out to be really exciting for me. >> So you had the stressful job. You rose to the top of the ranks, quarterly shot clock earnings, and it's hard charging. It's like, it's like, you know, being an athlete, as we say tech athlete. You're a tech athlete. Now you're taking that to the next level, which is now you're juggling multiple operational kind of things, but not with super pressure. But there's still a lot of responsibility. I know there's one board, you got compensation committee, I mean there's work involved. It's not like you're clipping coupons and having pizza. >> Yeah, no, it's real work. Believe me, it's real work. But I don't know how long it took me to not, to stop waking up and looking at my phone and thinking somebody was going to be dropping their forecast, right? Just that pressure of the number, and as a board member, obviously you are there to support and help guide the company and you feel, you know, you feel the pressure and the responsibility of what that role entails, but it's not the same as the frontline pressure every quarter. It's different. And so I did the first type. I loved it, you know. I'm loving this second type. >> You know, the retirement, it's always a cliche these days, but it's not really like what people think it is. It's not like getting a boat, going fishing or whatever. It's doing whatever you want to do, that's what retirement is. And you've chose to stay active. Your brain's being tested, and you're working it, having fun without all the stress. But it's enough, it's like going the gym. You're not hardcore workout, but you're working out with the brain. >> Yeah, no, for sure. It's just a different, it's just a different model. But the, you know, the level of conversations, the level of decisions, all of that is quite high. Which again, I like, yeah. >> Again, you really can't talk about some of the fun questions I want to ask, like what's the valuations like? How's the market, your headwinds? Is there tailwinds? >> Yes, yes, yes. It's an amazing, it's an amazing market right now with, as you know, counter indicators everywhere, right? Something's up, something's down, you know. Consumer spending's up, therefore interest rates go up and, you know, employment's down. And so or unemployment's down. And so it's hard. Actually, I really empathize with, you know, the, and have a great deal of respect for the CEOs and leadership teams of my board companies because, you know, I kind of retired from operating role, and then everybody else had to deal with running a company during a pandemic and then running a company through the great resignation, and then running a company through a downturn. You know, those are all tough things, and I have a ton of respect for any operating executive who's navigating through this and leading a company right now. >> I'd love to get your take on the board conversations at the end if we have more time, what the mood is, but I want to ask you about one more thing real quick before we go to the next topic is you're a retired operating executive. You have multiple boards, so you've got your hands full. I noticed there's a lot of amazing leaders, other female tech athletes joining boards, but they also have full-time jobs. >> Yeah. >> And so what's your advice? Cause I know there's a lot of networking, a lot of sharing going on. There's kind of a balance between how much you can contribute on the board versus doing the day job, but there's a real need for more women on boards, so yet there's a lot going on boards. What's the current state of the union if you will, state of the market relative to people in their careers and the stresses? >> Yeah. >> Cause you left one and jumped in all in there. >> Yeah. >> Some can't do that. They can't be on five boards, but they're on a few. What's the? >> Well, and you know, and if you're an operating executive, you wouldn't be on five boards, right? You would be on one or two. And so I spend a lot of time now bringing along the next wave of women and helping them both in their career but also to get a seat at the table on a board. And I'm very vocal about telling people not to do it the way I do it. There's no reason for it to be sequential. You can, you know, I thought I was so busy and was traveling all the time, and yes, all of that was true, but, and maybe I should say, you know, you can still fit in a board. And so, and what I see now is that your learnings are so exponential with outside perspective that I believe I would've been an even better operating executive had I done it earlier. I know I would've been an even better operating executive had I done it earlier. And so my advice is don't do it the way I did it. You know, it's worked out fine for me, but hindsight's 2020, I would. >> If you can go back and do a mulligan or a redo, what would you do? >> Yeah, I would get on a board earlier, full stop, yeah. >> Board, singular, plural? >> Well, I really, I don't think as an operating executive you can do, you could do one, maybe two. I wouldn't go beyond that, and I think that's fine. >> Yeah, totally makes sense. Okay, I got to ask you about your career. I know technical, you came in at that time in the market, I remember when I broke into the business, very male dominated, and then now it's much better. When you went through the ranks as a technical person, I know you had some blockers and definitely some, probably some people like, well, you know. We've seen that. How did you handle that? What were some of the key pivot points in your journey? And we've had a lot of women tell their stories here on theCUBE, candidly, like, hey, I was going to tell that professor, I'm going to sit in the front row. I'm going to, I'm getting two degrees, you know, robotics and aerospace. So, but they were challenged, even with the aspiration to do tech. I'm not saying that was something that you had, but like have you had experience like that, that you overcome? What were those key points and how did you handle them and how does that help people today? >> Yeah, you know, I have to say, you know, and not discounting that obviously this has been a journey for women, and there are a lot of things to overcome both in the workforce and also just balancing life honestly. And they're all real. There's also a story of incredible support, and you know, I'm the type of person where if somebody blocked me or didn't like me, I tended to just, you know, think it was me and like work harder and get around them, and I'm sure that some of that was potentially gender related. I didn't interpret it that way at the time. And I was lucky to have amazing mentors, many, many, many of whom were men, you know, because they were in the positions of power, and they made a huge difference on my career, huge. And I also had amazing female mentors, Meg Whitman, Ann Livermore at HPE, who you know well. So I had both, but you know, when I look back on the people who made a difference, there are as many men on the list as there are women. >> Yeah, and that's a learning there. Create those coalitions, not just one or the other. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. >> Well, I got to ask you about the, well, you brought up the pandemic. This has come up on some interviews this year, a little bit last year on the International Women's Day, but this year it's resonating, and I would never ask in an interview. I saw an interview once where a host asked a woman, how do you balance it all? And I was just like, no one asked men that. And so it's like, but with remote work, it's come up now the word empathy around people knowing each other's personal situation. In other words, when remote work happened, everybody went home. So we all got a glimpse of the backdrop. You got, you can see what their personal life was on Facebook. We were just commenting before we came on camera about that. So remote work really kind of opened up this personal side of everybody, men and women. >> Yeah. >> So I think this brings this new empathy kind of vibe or authentic self people call it. Is remote work an opportunity or a threat for advancement of women in tech? >> It's a much debated topic. I look at it as an opportunity for many of the reasons that you just said. First of all, let me say that when I was an operating executive and would try to create an environment on my team that was family supportive, I would do that equally for young or, you know, early to mid-career women as I did for early to mid-career men. And the reason is I needed those men, you know, chances are they had a working spouse at home, right? I needed them to be able to share the load. It's just as important to the women that companies give, you know, the partner, male or female, the partner support and the ability to share the love, right? So to me it's not just a woman thing. It's women and men, and I always tried to create the environment where it was okay to go to your soccer game. I knew you would be online later in the evening when the kids were in bed, and that was fine. And I think the pandemic has democratized that and made that, you know, made that kind of an everyday occurrence. >> Yeah the baby walks in. They're in the zoom call. The dog comes in. The leaf blower going on the outside the window. I've seen it all on theCUBE. >> Yeah, and people don't try to pretend anymore that like, you know, the house is clean, the dog's behaved, you know, I mean it's just, it's just real, and it's authentic, and I think that's healthy. >> Yeah. >> I do, you know, I also love, I also love the office, and you know, I've got a 31 year old and a soon to be 27 year old daughter, two daughters. And you know, they love going into the office, and I think about when I was their age, how just charged up I would get from being in the office. I also see how great it is for them to have a couple of days a week at home because you can get a few things done in between Zoom calls that you don't have to end up piling onto the weekend, and, you know, so I think it's a really healthy, I think it's a really healthy mix now. Most tech companies are not mandating five days in. Most tech companies are at two to three days in. I think that's a, I think that's a really good combination. >> It's interesting how people are changing their culture to get together more as groups and even events. I mean, while I got you, I might as well ask you, what's the board conversations around, you know, the old conferences? You know, before the pandemic, every company had like a user conference. Right, now it's like, well, do we really need to have that? Maybe we do smaller, and we do digital. Have you seen how companies are handling the in-person? Because there's where the relationships are really formed face-to-face, but not everyone's going to be going. But now certain it's clearly back to face-to-face. We're seeing that with theCUBE as you know. >> Yeah, yeah. >> But the numbers aren't coming back, and the numbers aren't that high, but the stakeholders. >> Yeah. >> And the numbers are actually higher if you count digital. >> Yeah, absolutely. But you know, also on digital there's fatigue from 100% digital, right? It's a hybrid. People don't want to be 100% digital anymore, but they also don't want to go back to the days when everybody got on a plane for every meeting, every call, every sales call. You know, I'm seeing a mix on user conferences. I would say two-thirds of my companies are back, but not at the expense level that they were on user conferences. We spend a lot of time getting updates on, cause nobody has put, interestingly enough, nobody has put T&E, travel and expense back to pre-pandemic levels. Nobody, so everybody's pulled back on number of trips. You know, marketing events are being very scrutinized, but I think very effective. We're doing a lot of, and, you know, these were part of the old model as well, like some things, some things just recycle, but you know, there's a lot of CIO and customer round tables in regional cities. You know, those are quite effective right now because people want some face-to-face, but they don't necessarily want to get on a plane and go to Las Vegas in order to do it. I mean, some of them are, you know, there are a lot of things back in Las Vegas. >> And think about the meetings that when you were an operating executive. You got to go to the sales kickoff, you got to go to this, go to that. There were mandatory face-to-faces that you had to go to, but there was a lot of travel that you probably could have done on Zoom. >> Oh, a lot, I mean. >> And then the productivity to the family impact too. Again, think about again, we're talking about the family and people's personal lives, right? So, you know, got to meet a customer. All right. Salesperson wants you to get in front of a customer, got to fly to New York, take a red eye, come on back. Like, I mean, that's gone. >> Yeah, and oh, by the way, the customer doesn't necessarily want to be in the office that day, so, you know, they may or may not be happy about that. So again, it's and not or, right? It's a mix. And I think it's great to see people back to some face-to-face. It's great to see marketing and events back to some face-to-face. It's also great to see that it hasn't gone back to the level it was. I think that's a really healthy dynamic. >> Well, I'll tell you that from our experience while we're on the topic, we'll move back to the International Women's Day is that the productivity of digital, this program we're doing is going to be streamed. We couldn't do this face-to-face because we had to have everyone fly to an event. We're going to do hundreds of stories that we couldn't have done. We're doing it remote. Because it's better to get the content than not have it. I mean it's offline, so, but it's not about getting people to the event and watch the screen for seven hours. It's pick your interview, and then engage. >> Yeah. >> So it's self-service. So we're seeing a lot, the new user experience kind of direct to consumer, and so I think there will be an, I think there's going to be a digital first class citizen with events, so that that matches up with the kind of experience, but the offline version. Face-to-face optimized for relationships, and that's where the recruiting gets done. That's where, you know, people can build these relationships with each other. >> Yeah, and it can be asynchronous. I think that's a real value proposition. It's a great point. >> Okay, I want to get, I want to get into the technology side of the education and re-skilling and those things. I remember in the 80s, computer science was software engineering. You learned like nine languages. You took some double E courses, one or two, and all the other kind of gut classes in school. Engineering, you had the four class disciplines and some offshoots of specialization. Now it's incredible the diversity of tracks in all engineering programs and computer science and outside of those departments. >> Yeah. >> Can you speak to the importance of STEM and the diversity in the technology industry and how this brings opportunity to lower the bar to get in and how people can stay in and grow and keep leveling up? >> Yeah, well look, we're constantly working on how to, how to help the incoming funnel. But then, you know, at a university level, I'm on the foundation board of Kansas State where I got my engineering degree. I was also Chairman of the National Action Council for Minorities in Engineering, which was all about diversity in STEM and how do you keep that pipeline going because honestly the US needs more tech resources than we have. And if you don't tap into the diversity of our entire workforce, we won't be able to fill that need. And so we focused a lot on both the funnel, right, that starts at the middle school level, particularly for girls, getting them in, you know, the situation of hands-on comfort level with coding, with robot building, you know, whatever gives them that confidence. And then keeping that going all the way into, you know, university program, and making sure that they don't attrit out, right? And so there's a number of initiatives, whether it's mentoring and support groups and financial aid to make sure that underrepresented minorities, women and other minorities, you know, get through the funnel and stay, you know, stay in. >> Got it. Now let me ask you, you said, I have two daughters. You have a family of girls too. Is there a vibe difference between the new generation and what's the trends that you're seeing in this next early wave? I mean, not maybe, I don't know how this is in middle school, but like as people start getting into their adult lives, college and beyond what's the current point of view, posture, makeup of the talent coming in? >> Yeah, yeah. >> Certain orientations, do you see any patterns? What's your observation? >> Yeah, it's interesting. So if I look at electrical engineering, my major, it's, and if I look at Kansas State, which spends a lot of time on this, and I think does a great job, but the diversity of that as a major has not changed dramatically since I was there in the early 80s. Where it has changed very significantly is computer science. There are many, many university and college programs around the country where, you know, it's 50/50 in computer science from a gender mix perspective, which is huge progress. Huge progress. And so, and to me that's, you know, I think CS is a fantastic degree for tech, regardless of what function you actually end up doing in these companies. I mean, I was an electrical engineer. I never did core electrical engineering work. I went right into sales and marketing and general management roles. So I think, I think a bunch of, you know, diverse CS graduates is a really, really good sign. And you know, we need to continue to push on that, but progress has been made. I think the, you know, it kind of goes back to the thing we were just talking about, which is the attrition of those, let's just talk about women, right? The attrition of those women once they got past early career and into mid-career then was a concern, right? And that goes back to, you know, just the inability to, you know, get it all done. And that I am hopeful is going to be better served now. >> Well, Sue, it's great to have you on. I know you're super busy. I appreciate you taking the time and contributing to our program on corporate board membership and some of your story and observations and opinions and analysis. Always great to have you and call you a contributor for theCUBE. You can jump on on one more board, be one of our board contributors for our analysts. (Sue laughing) >> I'm at capacity. (both laughing) >> Final, final word. What's the big seat at the table issue that's going well and areas that need to be improved? >> So I'll speak for my boards because they have made great progress in efficiency. You know, obviously with interest rates going up and the mix between growth and profitability changing in terms of what investors are looking for. Many, many companies have had to do a hard pivot from grow at all costs to healthy balance of growth and profit. And I'm very pleased with how my companies have made that pivot. And I think that is going to make much better companies as a result. I think diversity is something that has not been solved at the corporate level, and we need to keep working it. >> Awesome. Thank you for coming on theCUBE. CUBE alumni now contributor, on multiple boards, full-time job. Love the new challenge and chapter you're on, Sue. We'll be following, and we'll check in for more updates. And thank you for being a contributor on this program this year and this episode. We're going to be doing more of these quarterly, so we're going to move beyond once a year. >> That's great. (cross talking) It's always good to see you, John. >> Thank you. >> Thanks very much. >> Okay. >> Sue: Talk to you later. >> This is theCUBE coverage of IWD, International Women's Day 2023. I'm John Furrier, your host. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR. This is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vellante. >> OpenAI The company, and ChatGPT have taken the world by storm. Microsoft reportedly is investing an additional 10 billion dollars into the company. But in our view, while the hype around ChatGPT is justified, we don't believe OpenAI will lock up the market with its first mover advantage. Rather, we believe that success in this market will be directly proportional to the quality and quantity of data that a technology company has at its disposal, and the compute power that it could deploy to run its system. Hello and welcome to this week's Wikibon CUBE insights, powered by ETR. In this Breaking Analysis, we unpack the excitement around ChatGPT, and debate the premise that the company's early entry into the space may not confer winner take all advantage to OpenAI. And to do so, we welcome CUBE collaborator, alum, Sarbjeet Johal, (chuckles) and John Furrier, co-host of the Cube. Great to see you Sarbjeet, John. Really appreciate you guys coming to the program. >> Great to be on. >> Okay, so what is ChatGPT? Well, actually we asked ChatGPT, what is ChatGPT? So here's what it said. ChatGPT is a state-of-the-art language model developed by OpenAI that can generate human-like text. It could be fine tuned for a variety of language tasks, such as conversation, summarization, and language translation. So I asked it, give it to me in 50 words or less. How did it do? Anything to add? >> Yeah, think it did good. It's large language model, like previous models, but it started applying the transformers sort of mechanism to focus on what prompt you have given it to itself. And then also the what answer it gave you in the first, sort of, one sentence or two sentences, and then introspect on itself, like what I have already said to you. And so just work on that. So it it's self sort of focus if you will. It does, the transformers help the large language models to do that. >> So to your point, it's a large language model, and GPT stands for generative pre-trained transformer. >> And if you put the definition back up there again, if you put it back up on the screen, let's see it back up. Okay, it actually missed the large, word large. So one of the problems with ChatGPT, it's not always accurate. It's actually a large language model, and it says state of the art language model. And if you look at Google, Google has dominated AI for many times and they're well known as being the best at this. And apparently Google has their own large language model, LLM, in play and have been holding it back to release because of backlash on the accuracy. Like just in that example you showed is a great point. They got almost right, but they missed the key word. >> You know what's funny about that John, is I had previously asked it in my prompt to give me it in less than a hundred words, and it was too long, I said I was too long for Breaking Analysis, and there it went into the fact that it's a large language model. So it largely, it gave me a really different answer the, for both times. So, but it's still pretty amazing for those of you who haven't played with it yet. And one of the best examples that I saw was Ben Charrington from This Week In ML AI podcast. And I stumbled on this thanks to Brian Gracely, who was listening to one of his Cloudcasts. Basically what Ben did is he took, he prompted ChatGPT to interview ChatGPT, and he simply gave the system the prompts, and then he ran the questions and answers into this avatar builder and sped it up 2X so it didn't sound like a machine. And voila, it was amazing. So John is ChatGPT going to take over as a cube host? >> Well, I was thinking, we get the questions in advance sometimes from PR people. We should actually just plug it in ChatGPT, add it to our notes, and saying, "Is this good enough for you? Let's ask the real question." So I think, you know, I think there's a lot of heavy lifting that gets done. I think the ChatGPT is a phenomenal revolution. I think it highlights the use case. Like that example we showed earlier. It gets most of it right. So it's directionally correct and it feels like it's an answer, but it's not a hundred percent accurate. And I think that's where people are seeing value in it. Writing marketing, copy, brainstorming, guest list, gift list for somebody. Write me some lyrics to a song. Give me a thesis about healthcare policy in the United States. It'll do a bang up job, and then you got to go in and you can massage it. So we're going to do three quarters of the work. That's why plagiarism and schools are kind of freaking out. And that's why Microsoft put 10 billion in, because why wouldn't this be a feature of Word, or the OS to help it do stuff on behalf of the user. So linguistically it's a beautiful thing. You can input a string and get a good answer. It's not a search result. >> And we're going to get your take on on Microsoft and, but it kind of levels the playing- but ChatGPT writes better than I do, Sarbjeet, and I know you have some good examples too. You mentioned the Reed Hastings example. >> Yeah, I was listening to Reed Hastings fireside chat with ChatGPT, and the answers were coming as sort of voice, in the voice format. And it was amazing what, he was having very sort of philosophy kind of talk with the ChatGPT, the longer sentences, like he was going on, like, just like we are talking, he was talking for like almost two minutes and then ChatGPT was answering. It was not one sentence question, and then a lot of answers from ChatGPT and yeah, you're right. I, this is our ability. I've been thinking deep about this since yesterday, we talked about, like, we want to do this segment. The data is fed into the data model. It can be the current data as well, but I think that, like, models like ChatGPT, other companies will have those too. They can, they're democratizing the intelligence, but they're not creating intelligence yet, definitely yet I can say that. They will give you all the finite answers. Like, okay, how do you do this for loop in Java, versus, you know, C sharp, and as a programmer you can do that, in, but they can't tell you that, how to write a new algorithm or write a new search algorithm for you. They cannot create a secretive code for you to- >> Not yet. >> Have competitive advantage. >> Not yet, not yet. >> but you- >> Can Google do that today? >> No one really can. The reasoning side of the data is, we talked about at our Supercloud event, with Zhamak Dehghani who's was CEO of, now of Nextdata. This next wave of data intelligence is going to come from entrepreneurs that are probably cross discipline, computer science and some other discipline. But they're going to be new things, for example, data, metadata, and data. It's hard to do reasoning like a human being, so that needs more data to train itself. So I think the first gen of this training module for the large language model they have is a corpus of text. Lot of that's why blog posts are, but the facts are wrong and sometimes out of context, because that contextual reasoning takes time, it takes intelligence. So machines need to become intelligent, and so therefore they need to be trained. So you're going to start to see, I think, a lot of acceleration on training the data sets. And again, it's only as good as the data you can get. And again, proprietary data sets will be a huge winner. Anyone who's got a large corpus of content, proprietary content like theCUBE or SiliconANGLE as a publisher will benefit from this. Large FinTech companies, anyone with large proprietary data will probably be a big winner on this generative AI wave, because it just, it will eat that up, and turn that back into something better. So I think there's going to be a lot of interesting things to look at here. And certainly productivity's going to be off the charts for vanilla and the internet is going to get swarmed with vanilla content. So if you're in the content business, and you're an original content producer of any kind, you're going to be not vanilla, so you're going to be better. So I think there's so much at play Dave (indistinct). >> I think the playing field has been risen, so we- >> Risen and leveled? >> Yeah, and leveled to certain extent. So it's now like that few people as consumers, as consumers of AI, we will have a advantage and others cannot have that advantage. So it will be democratized. That's, I'm sure about that. But if you take the example of calculator, when the calculator came in, and a lot of people are, "Oh, people can't do math anymore because calculator is there." right? So it's a similar sort of moment, just like a calculator for the next level. But, again- >> I see it more like open source, Sarbjeet, because like if you think about what ChatGPT's doing, you do a query and it comes from somewhere the value of a post from ChatGPT is just a reuse of AI. The original content accent will be come from a human. So if I lay out a paragraph from ChatGPT, did some heavy lifting on some facts, I check the facts, save me about maybe- >> Yeah, it's productive. >> An hour writing, and then I write a killer two, three sentences of, like, sharp original thinking or critical analysis. I then took that body of work, open source content, and then laid something on top of it. >> And Sarbjeet's example is a good one, because like if the calculator kids don't do math as well anymore, the slide rule, remember we had slide rules as kids, remember we first started using Waze, you know, we were this minority and you had an advantage over other drivers. Now Waze is like, you know, social traffic, you know, navigation, everybody had, you know- >> All the back roads are crowded. >> They're car crowded. (group laughs) Exactly. All right, let's, let's move on. What about this notion that futurist Ray Amara put forth and really Amara's Law that we're showing here, it's, the law is we, you know, "We tend to overestimate the effect of technology in the short run and underestimate it in the long run." Is that the case, do you think, with ChatGPT? What do you think Sarbjeet? >> I think that's true actually. There's a lot of, >> We don't debate this. >> There's a lot of awe, like when people see the results from ChatGPT, they say what, what the heck? Like, it can do this? But then if you use it more and more and more, and I ask the set of similar question, not the same question, and it gives you like same answer. It's like reading from the same bucket of text in, the interior read (indistinct) where the ChatGPT, you will see that in some couple of segments. It's very, it sounds so boring that the ChatGPT is coming out the same two sentences every time. So it is kind of good, but it's not as good as people think it is right now. But we will have, go through this, you know, hype sort of cycle and get realistic with it. And then in the long term, I think it's a great thing in the short term, it's not something which will (indistinct) >> What's your counter point? You're saying it's not. >> I, no I think the question was, it's hyped up in the short term and not it's underestimated long term. That's what I think what he said, quote. >> Yes, yeah. That's what he said. >> Okay, I think that's wrong with this, because this is a unique, ChatGPT is a unique kind of impact and it's very generational. People have been comparing it, I have been comparing to the internet, like the web, web browser Mosaic and Netscape, right, Navigator. I mean, I clearly still remember the days seeing Navigator for the first time, wow. And there weren't not many sites you could go to, everyone typed in, you know, cars.com, you know. >> That (indistinct) wasn't that overestimated, the overhyped at the beginning and underestimated. >> No, it was, it was underestimated long run, people thought. >> But that Amara's law. >> That's what is. >> No, they said overestimated? >> Overestimated near term underestimated- overhyped near term, underestimated long term. I got, right I mean? >> Well, I, yeah okay, so I would then agree, okay then- >> We were off the charts about the internet in the early days, and it actually exceeded our expectations. >> Well there were people who were, like, poo-pooing it early on. So when the browser came out, people were like, "Oh, the web's a toy for kids." I mean, in 1995 the web was a joke, right? So '96, you had online populations growing, so you had structural changes going on around the browser, internet population. And then that replaced other things, direct mail, other business activities that were once analog then went to the web, kind of read only as you, as we always talk about. So I think that's a moment where the hype long term, the smart money, and the smart industry experts all get the long term. And in this case, there's more poo-pooing in the short term. "Ah, it's not a big deal, it's just AI." I've heard many people poo-pooing ChatGPT, and a lot of smart people saying, "No this is next gen, this is different and it's only going to get better." So I think people are estimating a big long game on this one. >> So you're saying it's bifurcated. There's those who say- >> Yes. >> Okay, all right, let's get to the heart of the premise, and possibly the debate for today's episode. Will OpenAI's early entry into the market confer sustainable competitive advantage for the company. And if you look at the history of tech, the technology industry, it's kind of littered with first mover failures. Altair, IBM, Tandy, Commodore, they and Apple even, they were really early in the PC game. They took a backseat to Dell who came in the scene years later with a better business model. Netscape, you were just talking about, was all the rage in Silicon Valley, with the first browser, drove up all the housing prices out here. AltaVista was the first search engine to really, you know, index full text. >> Owned by Dell, I mean DEC. >> Owned by Digital. >> Yeah, Digital Equipment >> Compaq bought it. And of course as an aside, Digital, they wanted to showcase their hardware, right? Their super computer stuff. And then so Friendster and MySpace, they came before Facebook. The iPhone certainly wasn't the first mobile device. So lots of failed examples, but there are some recent successes like AWS and cloud. >> You could say smartphone. So I mean. >> Well I know, and you can, we can parse this so we'll debate it. Now Twitter, you could argue, had first mover advantage. You kind of gave me that one John. Bitcoin and crypto clearly had first mover advantage, and sustaining that. Guys, will OpenAI make it to the list on the right with ChatGPT, what do you think? >> I think categorically as a company, it probably won't, but as a category, I think what they're doing will, so OpenAI as a company, they get funding, there's power dynamics involved. Microsoft put a billion dollars in early on, then they just pony it up. Now they're reporting 10 billion more. So, like, if the browsers, Microsoft had competitive advantage over Netscape, and used monopoly power, and convicted by the Department of Justice for killing Netscape with their monopoly, Netscape should have had won that battle, but Microsoft killed it. In this case, Microsoft's not killing it, they're buying into it. So I think the embrace extend Microsoft power here makes OpenAI vulnerable for that one vendor solution. So the AI as a company might not make the list, but the category of what this is, large language model AI, is probably will be on the right hand side. >> Okay, we're going to come back to the government intervention and maybe do some comparisons, but what are your thoughts on this premise here? That, it will basically set- put forth the premise that it, that ChatGPT, its early entry into the market will not confer competitive advantage to >> For OpenAI. >> To Open- Yeah, do you agree with that? >> I agree with that actually. It, because Google has been at it, and they have been holding back, as John said because of the scrutiny from the Fed, right, so- >> And privacy too. >> And the privacy and the accuracy as well. But I think Sam Altman and the company on those guys, right? They have put this in a hasty way out there, you know, because it makes mistakes, and there are a lot of questions around the, sort of, where the content is coming from. You saw that as your example, it just stole the content, and without your permission, you know? >> Yeah. So as quick this aside- >> And it codes on people's behalf and the, those codes are wrong. So there's a lot of, sort of, false information it's putting out there. So it's a very vulnerable thing to do what Sam Altman- >> So even though it'll get better, others will compete. >> So look, just side note, a term which Reid Hoffman used a little bit. Like he said, it's experimental launch, like, you know, it's- >> It's pretty damn good. >> It is clever because according to Sam- >> It's more than clever. It's good. >> It's awesome, if you haven't used it. I mean you write- you read what it writes and you go, "This thing writes so well, it writes so much better than you." >> The human emotion drives that too. I think that's a big thing. But- >> I Want to add one more- >> Make your last point. >> Last one. Okay. So, but he's still holding back. He's conducting quite a few interviews. If you want to get the gist of it, there's an interview with StrictlyVC interview from yesterday with Sam Altman. Listen to that one it's an eye opening what they want- where they want to take it. But my last one I want to make it on this point is that Satya Nadella yesterday did an interview with Wall Street Journal. I think he was doing- >> You were not impressed. >> I was not impressed because he was pushing it too much. So Sam Altman's holding back so there's less backlash. >> Got 10 billion reasons to push. >> I think he's almost- >> Microsoft just laid off 10000 people. Hey ChatGPT, find me a job. You know like. (group laughs) >> He's overselling it to an extent that I think it will backfire on Microsoft. And he's over promising a lot of stuff right now, I think. I don't know why he's very jittery about all these things. And he did the same thing during Ignite as well. So he said, "Oh, this AI will write code for you and this and that." Like you called him out- >> The hyperbole- >> During your- >> from Satya Nadella, he's got a lot of hyperbole. (group talks over each other) >> All right, Let's, go ahead. >> Well, can I weigh in on the whole- >> Yeah, sure. >> Microsoft thing on whether OpenAI, here's the take on this. I think it's more like the browser moment to me, because I could relate to that experience with ChatG, personally, emotionally, when I saw that, and I remember vividly- >> You mean that aha moment (indistinct). >> Like this is obviously the future. Anything else in the old world is dead, website's going to be everywhere. It was just instant dot connection for me. And a lot of other smart people who saw this. Lot of people by the way, didn't see it. Someone said the web's a toy. At the company I was worked for at the time, Hewlett Packard, they like, they could have been in, they had invented HTML, and so like all this stuff was, like, they just passed, the web was just being passed over. But at that time, the browser got better, more websites came on board. So the structural advantage there was online web usage was growing, online user population. So that was growing exponentially with the rise of the Netscape browser. So OpenAI could stay on the right side of your list as durable, if they leverage the category that they're creating, can get the scale. And if they can get the scale, just like Twitter, that failed so many times that they still hung around. So it was a product that was always successful, right? So I mean, it should have- >> You're right, it was terrible, we kept coming back. >> The fail whale, but it still grew. So OpenAI has that moment. They could do it if Microsoft doesn't meddle too much with too much power as a vendor. They could be the Netscape Navigator, without the anti-competitive behavior of somebody else. So to me, they have the pole position. So they have an opportunity. So if not, if they don't execute, then there's opportunity. There's not a lot of barriers to entry, vis-a-vis say the CapEx of say a cloud company like AWS. You can't replicate that, Many have tried, but I think you can replicate OpenAI. >> And we're going to talk about that. Okay, so real quick, I want to bring in some ETR data. This isn't an ETR heavy segment, only because this so new, you know, they haven't coverage yet, but they do cover AI. So basically what we're seeing here is a slide on the vertical axis's net score, which is a measure of spending momentum, and in the horizontal axis's is presence in the dataset. Think of it as, like, market presence. And in the insert right there, you can see how the dots are plotted, the two columns. And so, but the key point here that we want to make, there's a bunch of companies on the left, is he like, you know, DataRobot and C3 AI and some others, but the big whales, Google, AWS, Microsoft, are really dominant in this market. So that's really the key takeaway that, can we- >> I notice IBM is way low. >> Yeah, IBM's low, and actually bring that back up and you, but then you see Oracle who actually is injecting. So I guess that's the other point is, you're not necessarily going to go buy AI, and you know, build your own AI, you're going to, it's going to be there and, it, Salesforce is going to embed it into its platform, the SaaS companies, and you're going to purchase AI. You're not necessarily going to build it. But some companies obviously are. >> I mean to quote IBM's general manager Rob Thomas, "You can't have AI with IA." information architecture and David Flynn- >> You can't Have AI without IA >> without, you can't have AI without IA. You can't have, if you have an Information Architecture, you then can power AI. Yesterday David Flynn, with Hammersmith, was on our Supercloud. He was pointing out that the relationship of storage, where you store things, also impacts the data and stressablity, and Zhamak from Nextdata, she was pointing out that same thing. So the data problem factors into all this too, Dave. >> So you got the big cloud and internet giants, they're all poised to go after this opportunity. Microsoft is investing up to 10 billion. Google's code red, which was, you know, the headline in the New York Times. Of course Apple is there and several alternatives in the market today. Guys like Chinchilla, Bloom, and there's a company Jasper and several others, and then Lena Khan looms large and the government's around the world, EU, US, China, all taking notice before the market really is coalesced around a single player. You know, John, you mentioned Netscape, they kind of really, the US government was way late to that game. It was kind of game over. And Netscape, I remember Barksdale was like, "Eh, we're going to be selling software in the enterprise anyway." and then, pshew, the company just dissipated. So, but it looks like the US government, especially with Lena Khan, they're changing the definition of antitrust and what the cause is to go after people, and they're really much more aggressive. It's only what, two years ago that (indistinct). >> Yeah, the problem I have with the federal oversight is this, they're always like late to the game, and they're slow to catch up. So in other words, they're working on stuff that should have been solved a year and a half, two years ago around some of the social networks hiding behind some of the rules around open web back in the days, and I think- >> But they're like 15 years late to that. >> Yeah, and now they got this new thing on top of it. So like, I just worry about them getting their fingers. >> But there's only two years, you know, OpenAI. >> No, but the thing (indistinct). >> No, they're still fighting other battles. But the problem with government is that they're going to label Big Tech as like a evil thing like Pharma, it's like smoke- >> You know Lena Khan wants to kill Big Tech, there's no question. >> So I think Big Tech is getting a very seriously bad rap. And I think anything that the government does that shades darkness on tech, is politically motivated in most cases. You can almost look at everything, and my 80 20 rule is in play here. 80% of the government activity around tech is bullshit, it's politically motivated, and the 20% is probably relevant, but off the mark and not organized. >> Well market forces have always been the determining factor of success. The governments, you know, have been pretty much failed. I mean you look at IBM's antitrust, that, what did that do? The market ultimately beat them. You look at Microsoft back in the day, right? Windows 95 was peaking, the government came in. But you know, like you said, they missed the web, right, and >> so they were hanging on- >> There's nobody in government >> to Windows. >> that actually knows- >> And so, you, I think you're right. It's market forces that are going to determine this. But Sarbjeet, what do you make of Microsoft's big bet here, you weren't impressed with with Nadella. How do you think, where are they going to apply it? Is this going to be a Hail Mary for Bing, or is it going to be applied elsewhere? What do you think. >> They are saying that they will, sort of, weave this into their products, office products, productivity and also to write code as well, developer productivity as well. That's a big play for them. But coming back to your antitrust sort of comments, right? I believe the, your comment was like, oh, fed was late 10 years or 15 years earlier, but now they're two years. But things are moving very fast now as compared to they used to move. >> So two years is like 10 Years. >> Yeah, two years is like 10 years. Just want to make that point. (Dave laughs) This thing is going like wildfire. Any new tech which comes in that I think they're going against distribution channels. Lina Khan has commented time and again that the marketplace model is that she wants to have some grip on. Cloud marketplaces are a kind of monopolistic kind of way. >> I don't, I don't see this, I don't see a Chat AI. >> You told me it's not Bing, you had an interesting comment. >> No, no. First of all, this is great from Microsoft. If you're Microsoft- >> Why? >> Because Microsoft doesn't have the AI chops that Google has, right? Google is got so much core competency on how they run their search, how they run their backends, their cloud, even though they don't get a lot of cloud market share in the enterprise, they got a kick ass cloud cause they needed one. >> Totally. >> They've invented SRE. I mean Google's development and engineering chops are off the scales, right? Amazon's got some good chops, but Google's got like 10 times more chops than AWS in my opinion. Cloud's a whole different story. Microsoft gets AI, they get a playbook, they get a product they can render into, the not only Bing, productivity software, helping people write papers, PowerPoint, also don't forget the cloud AI can super help. We had this conversation on our Supercloud event, where AI's going to do a lot of the heavy lifting around understanding observability and managing service meshes, to managing microservices, to turning on and off applications, and or maybe writing code in real time. So there's a plethora of use cases for Microsoft to deploy this. combined with their R and D budgets, they can then turbocharge more research, build on it. So I think this gives them a car in the game, Google may have pole position with AI, but this puts Microsoft right in the game, and they already have a lot of stuff going on. But this just, I mean everything gets lifted up. Security, cloud, productivity suite, everything. >> What's under the hood at Google, and why aren't they talking about it? I mean they got to be freaked out about this. No? Or do they have kind of a magic bullet? >> I think they have the, they have the chops definitely. Magic bullet, I don't know where they are, as compared to the ChatGPT 3 or 4 models. Like they, but if you look at the online sort of activity and the videos put out there from Google folks, Google technology folks, that's account you should look at if you are looking there, they have put all these distinctions what ChatGPT 3 has used, they have been talking about for a while as well. So it's not like it's a secret thing that you cannot replicate. As you said earlier, like in the beginning of this segment, that anybody who has more data and the capacity to process that data, which Google has both, I think they will win this. >> Obviously living in Palo Alto where the Google founders are, and Google's headquarters next town over we have- >> We're so close to them. We have inside information on some of the thinking and that hasn't been reported by any outlet yet. And that is, is that, from what I'm hearing from my sources, is Google has it, they don't want to release it for many reasons. One is it might screw up their search monopoly, one, two, they're worried about the accuracy, 'cause Google will get sued. 'Cause a lot of people are jamming on this ChatGPT as, "Oh it does everything for me." when it's clearly not a hundred percent accurate all the time. >> So Lina Kahn is looming, and so Google's like be careful. >> Yeah so Google's just like, this is the third, could be a third rail. >> But the first thing you said is a concern. >> Well no. >> The disruptive (indistinct) >> What they will do is do a Waymo kind of thing, where they spin out a separate company. >> They're doing that. >> The discussions happening, they're going to spin out the separate company and put it over there, and saying, "This is AI, got search over there, don't touch that search, 'cause that's where all the revenue is." (chuckles) >> So, okay, so that's how they deal with the Clay Christensen dilemma. What's the business model here? I mean it's not advertising, right? Is it to charge you for a query? What, how do you make money at this? >> It's a good question, I mean my thinking is, first of all, it's cool to type stuff in and see a paper get written, or write a blog post, or gimme a marketing slogan for this or that or write some code. I think the API side of the business will be critical. And I think Howie Xu, I know you're going to reference some of his comments yesterday on Supercloud, I think this brings a whole 'nother user interface into technology consumption. I think the business model, not yet clear, but it will probably be some sort of either API and developer environment or just a straight up free consumer product, with some sort of freemium backend thing for business. >> And he was saying too, it's natural language is the way in which you're going to interact with these systems. >> I think it's APIs, it's APIs, APIs, APIs, because these people who are cooking up these models, and it takes a lot of compute power to train these and to, for inference as well. Somebody did the analysis on the how many cents a Google search costs to Google, and how many cents the ChatGPT query costs. It's, you know, 100x or something on that. You can take a look at that. >> A 100x on which side? >> You're saying two orders of magnitude more expensive for ChatGPT >> Much more, yeah. >> Than for Google. >> It's very expensive. >> So Google's got the data, they got the infrastructure and they got, you're saying they got the cost (indistinct) >> No actually it's a simple query as well, but they are trying to put together the answers, and they're going through a lot more data versus index data already, you know. >> Let me clarify, you're saying that Google's version of ChatGPT is more efficient? >> No, I'm, I'm saying Google search results. >> Ah, search results. >> What are used to today, but cheaper. >> But that, does that, is that going to confer advantage to Google's large language (indistinct)? >> It will, because there were deep science (indistinct). >> Google, I don't think Google search is doing a large language model on their search, it's keyword search. You know, what's the weather in Santa Cruz? Or how, what's the weather going to be? Or you know, how do I find this? Now they have done a smart job of doing some things with those queries, auto complete, re direct navigation. But it's, it's not entity. It's not like, "Hey, what's Dave Vellante thinking this week in Breaking Analysis?" ChatGPT might get that, because it'll get your Breaking Analysis, it'll synthesize it. There'll be some, maybe some clips. It'll be like, you know, I mean. >> Well I got to tell you, I asked ChatGPT to, like, I said, I'm going to enter a transcript of a discussion I had with Nir Zuk, the CTO of Palo Alto Networks, And I want you to write a 750 word blog. I never input the transcript. It wrote a 750 word blog. It attributed quotes to him, and it just pulled a bunch of stuff that, and said, okay, here it is. It talked about Supercloud, it defined Supercloud. >> It's made, it makes you- >> Wow, But it was a big lie. It was fraudulent, but still, blew me away. >> Again, vanilla content and non accurate content. So we are going to see a surge of misinformation on steroids, but I call it the vanilla content. Wow, that's just so boring, (indistinct). >> There's so many dangers. >> Make your point, cause we got to, almost out of time. >> Okay, so the consumption, like how do you consume this thing. As humans, we are consuming it and we are, like, getting a nicely, like, surprisingly shocked, you know, wow, that's cool. It's going to increase productivity and all that stuff, right? And on the danger side as well, the bad actors can take hold of it and create fake content and we have the fake sort of intelligence, if you go out there. So that's one thing. The second thing is, we are as humans are consuming this as language. Like we read that, we listen to it, whatever format we consume that is, but the ultimate usage of that will be when the machines can take that output from likes of ChatGPT, and do actions based on that. The robots can work, the robot can paint your house, we were talking about, right? Right now we can't do that. >> Data apps. >> So the data has to be ingested by the machines. It has to be digestible by the machines. And the machines cannot digest unorganized data right now, we will get better on the ingestion side as well. So we are getting better. >> Data, reasoning, insights, and action. >> I like that mall, paint my house. >> So, okay- >> By the way, that means drones that'll come in. Spray painting your house. >> Hey, it wasn't too long ago that robots couldn't climb stairs, as I like to point out. Okay, and of course it's no surprise the venture capitalists are lining up to eat at the trough, as I'd like to say. Let's hear, you'd referenced this earlier, John, let's hear what AI expert Howie Xu said at the Supercloud event, about what it takes to clone ChatGPT. Please, play the clip. >> So one of the VCs actually asked me the other day, right? "Hey, how much money do I need to spend, invest to get a, you know, another shot to the openAI sort of the level." You know, I did a (indistinct) >> Line up. >> A hundred million dollar is the order of magnitude that I came up with, right? You know, not a billion, not 10 million, right? So a hundred- >> Guys a hundred million dollars, that's an astoundingly low figure. What do you make of it? >> I was in an interview with, I was interviewing, I think he said hundred million or so, but in the hundreds of millions, not a billion right? >> You were trying to get him up, you were like "Hundreds of millions." >> Well I think, I- >> He's like, eh, not 10, not a billion. >> Well first of all, Howie Xu's an expert machine learning. He's at Zscaler, he's a machine learning AI guy. But he comes from VMware, he's got his technology pedigrees really off the chart. Great friend of theCUBE and kind of like a CUBE analyst for us. And he's smart. He's right. I think the barriers to entry from a dollar standpoint are lower than say the CapEx required to compete with AWS. Clearly, the CapEx spending to build all the tech for the run a cloud. >> And you don't need a huge sales force. >> And in some case apps too, it's the same thing. But I think it's not that hard. >> But am I right about that? You don't need a huge sales force either. It's, what, you know >> If the product's good, it will sell, this is a new era. The better mouse trap will win. This is the new economics in software, right? So- >> Because you look at the amount of money Lacework, and Snyk, Snowflake, Databrooks. Look at the amount of money they've raised. I mean it's like a billion dollars before they get to IPO or more. 'Cause they need promotion, they need go to market. You don't need (indistinct) >> OpenAI's been working on this for multiple five years plus it's, hasn't, wasn't born yesterday. Took a lot of years to get going. And Sam is depositioning all the success, because he's trying to manage expectations, To your point Sarbjeet, earlier. It's like, yeah, he's trying to "Whoa, whoa, settle down everybody, (Dave laughs) it's not that great." because he doesn't want to fall into that, you know, hero and then get taken down, so. >> It may take a 100 million or 150 or 200 million to train the model. But to, for the inference to, yeah to for the inference machine, It will take a lot more, I believe. >> Give it, so imagine, >> Because- >> Go ahead, sorry. >> Go ahead. But because it consumes a lot more compute cycles and it's certain level of storage and everything, right, which they already have. So I think to compute is different. To frame the model is a different cost. But to run the business is different, because I think 100 million can go into just fighting the Fed. >> Well there's a flywheel too. >> Oh that's (indistinct) >> (indistinct) >> We are running the business, right? >> It's an interesting number, but it's also kind of, like, context to it. So here, a hundred million spend it, you get there, but you got to factor in the fact that the ways companies win these days is critical mass scale, hitting a flywheel. If they can keep that flywheel of the value that they got going on and get better, you can almost imagine a marketplace where, hey, we have proprietary data, we're SiliconANGLE in theCUBE. We have proprietary content, CUBE videos, transcripts. Well wouldn't it be great if someone in a marketplace could sell a module for us, right? We buy that, Amazon's thing and things like that. So if they can get a marketplace going where you can apply to data sets that may be proprietary, you can start to see this become bigger. And so I think the key barriers to entry is going to be success. I'll give you an example, Reddit. Reddit is successful and it's hard to copy, not because of the software. >> They built the moat. >> Because you can, buy Reddit open source software and try To compete. >> They built the moat with their community. >> Their community, their scale, their user expectation. Twitter, we referenced earlier, that thing should have gone under the first two years, but there was such a great emotional product. People would tolerate the fail whale. And then, you know, well that was a whole 'nother thing. >> Then a plane landed in (John laughs) the Hudson and it was over. >> I think verticals, a lot of verticals will build applications using these models like for lawyers, for doctors, for scientists, for content creators, for- >> So you'll have many hundreds of millions of dollars investments that are going to be seeping out. If, all right, we got to wrap, if you had to put odds on it that that OpenAI is going to be the leader, maybe not a winner take all leader, but like you look at like Amazon and cloud, they're not winner take all, these aren't necessarily winner take all markets. It's not necessarily a zero sum game, but let's call it winner take most. What odds would you give that open AI 10 years from now will be in that position. >> If I'm 0 to 10 kind of thing? >> Yeah, it's like horse race, 3 to 1, 2 to 1, even money, 10 to 1, 50 to 1. >> Maybe 2 to 1, >> 2 to 1, that's pretty low odds. That's basically saying they're the favorite, they're the front runner. Would you agree with that? >> I'd say 4 to 1. >> Yeah, I was going to say I'm like a 5 to 1, 7 to 1 type of person, 'cause I'm a skeptic with, you know, there's so much competition, but- >> I think they're definitely the leader. I mean you got to say, I mean. >> Oh there's no question. There's no question about it. >> The question is can they execute? >> They're not Friendster, is what you're saying. >> They're not Friendster and they're more like Twitter and Reddit where they have momentum. If they can execute on the product side, and if they don't stumble on that, they will continue to have the lead. >> If they say stay neutral, as Sam is, has been saying, that, hey, Microsoft is one of our partners, if you look at their company model, how they have structured the company, then they're going to pay back to the investors, like Microsoft is the biggest one, up to certain, like by certain number of years, they're going to pay back from all the money they make, and after that, they're going to give the money back to the public, to the, I don't know who they give it to, like non-profit or something. (indistinct) >> Okay, the odds are dropping. (group talks over each other) That's a good point though >> Actually they might have done that to fend off the criticism of this. But it's really interesting to see the model they have adopted. >> The wildcard in all this, My last word on this is that, if there's a developer shift in how developers and data can come together again, we have conferences around the future of data, Supercloud and meshs versus, you know, how the data world, coding with data, how that evolves will also dictate, 'cause a wild card could be a shift in the landscape around how developers are using either machine learning or AI like techniques to code into their apps, so. >> That's fantastic insight. I can't thank you enough for your time, on the heels of Supercloud 2, really appreciate it. All right, thanks to John and Sarbjeet for the outstanding conversation today. Special thanks to the Palo Alto studio team. My goodness, Anderson, this great backdrop. You guys got it all out here, I'm jealous. And Noah, really appreciate it, Chuck, Andrew Frick and Cameron, Andrew Frick switching, Cameron on the video lake, great job. And Alex Myerson, he's on production, manages the podcast for us, Ken Schiffman as well. Kristen Martin and Cheryl Knight help get the word out on social media and our newsletters. Rob Hof is our editor-in-chief over at SiliconANGLE, does some great editing, thanks to all. Remember, all these episodes are available as podcasts. All you got to do is search Breaking Analysis podcast, wherever you listen. Publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. Want to get in touch, email me directly, david.vellante@siliconangle.com or DM me at dvellante, or comment on our LinkedIn post. And by all means, check out etr.ai. They got really great survey data in the enterprise tech business. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE Insights powered by ETR. Thanks for watching, We'll see you next time on Breaking Analysis. (electronic music)

>>From the Cube Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from the cube and E T R. This is breaking analysis with Dave Valante. >>Making technology predictions in 2022 was tricky business, especially if you were projecting the performance of markets or identifying I P O prospects and making binary forecast on data AI and the macro spending climate and other related topics in enterprise tech 2022, of course was characterized by a seesaw economy where central banks were restructuring their balance sheets. The war on Ukraine fueled inflation supply chains were a mess. And the unintended consequences of of forced march to digital and the acceleration still being sorted out. Hello and welcome to this week's weekly on Cube Insights powered by E T R. In this breaking analysis, we continue our annual tradition of transparently grading last year's enterprise tech predictions. And you may or may not agree with our self grading system, but look, we're gonna give you the data and you can draw your own conclusions and tell you what, tell us what you think. >>All right, let's get right to it. So our first prediction was tech spending increases by 8% in 2022. And as we exited 2021 CIOs, they were optimistic about their digital transformation plans. You know, they rushed to make changes to their business and were eager to sharpen their focus and continue to iterate on their digital business models and plug the holes that they, the, in the learnings that they had. And so we predicted that 8% rise in enterprise tech spending, which looked pretty good until Ukraine and the Fed decided that, you know, had to rush and make up for lost time. We kind of nailed the momentum in the energy sector, but we can't give ourselves too much credit for that layup. And as of October, Gartner had it spending growing at just over 5%. I think it was 5.1%. So we're gonna take a C plus on this one and, and move on. >>Our next prediction was basically kind of a slow ground ball. The second base, if I have to be honest, but we felt it was important to highlight that security would remain front and center as the number one priority for organizations in 2022. As is our tradition, you know, we try to up the degree of difficulty by specifically identifying companies that are gonna benefit from these trends. So we highlighted some possible I P O candidates, which of course didn't pan out. S NQ was on our radar. The company had just had to do another raise and they recently took a valuation hit and it was a down round. They raised 196 million. So good chunk of cash, but, but not the i p O that we had predicted Aqua Securities focus on containers and cloud native. That was a trendy call and we thought maybe an M SS P or multiple managed security service providers like Arctic Wolf would I p o, but no way that was happening in the crummy market. >>Nonetheless, we think these types of companies, they're still faring well as the talent shortage in security remains really acute, particularly in the sort of mid-size and small businesses that often don't have a sock Lacework laid off 20% of its workforce in 2022. And CO C e o Dave Hatfield left the company. So that I p o didn't, didn't happen. It was probably too early for Lacework. Anyway, meanwhile you got Netscope, which we've cited as strong in the E T R data as particularly in the emerging technology survey. And then, you know, I lumia holding its own, you know, we never liked that 7 billion price tag that Okta paid for auth zero, but we loved the TAM expansion strategy to target developers beyond sort of Okta's enterprise strength. But we gotta take some points off of the failure thus far of, of Okta to really nail the integration and the go to market model with azero and build, you know, bring that into the, the, the core Okta. >>So the focus on endpoint security that was a winner in 2022 is CrowdStrike led that charge with others holding their own, not the least of which was Palo Alto Networks as it continued to expand beyond its core network security and firewall business, you know, through acquisition. So overall we're gonna give ourselves an A minus for this relatively easy call, but again, we had some specifics associated with it to make it a little tougher. And of course we're watching ve very closely this this coming year in 2023. The vendor consolidation trend. You know, according to a recent Palo Alto network survey with 1300 SecOps pros on average organizations have more than 30 tools to manage security tools. So this is a logical way to optimize cost consolidating vendors and consolidating redundant vendors. The E T R data shows that's clearly a trend that's on the upswing. >>Now moving on, a big theme of 2020 and 2021 of course was remote work and hybrid work and new ways to work and return to work. So we predicted in 2022 that hybrid work models would become the dominant protocol, which clearly is the case. We predicted that about 33% of the workforce would come back to the office in 2022 in September. The E T R data showed that figure was at 29%, but organizations expected that 32% would be in the office, you know, pretty much full-time by year end. That hasn't quite happened, but we were pretty close with the projection, so we're gonna take an A minus on this one. Now, supply chain disruption was another big theme that we felt would carry through 2022. And sure that sounds like another easy one, but as is our tradition, again we try to put some binary metrics around our predictions to put some meat in the bone, so to speak, and and allow us than you to say, okay, did it come true or not? >>So we had some data that we presented last year and supply chain issues impacting hardware spend. We said at the time, you can see this on the left hand side of this chart, the PC laptop demand would remain above pre covid levels, which would reverse a decade of year on year declines, which I think started in around 2011, 2012. Now, while demand is down this year pretty substantially relative to 2021, I D C has worldwide unit shipments for PCs at just over 300 million for 22. If you go back to 2019 and you're looking at around let's say 260 million units shipped globally, you know, roughly, so, you know, pretty good call there. Definitely much higher than pre covid levels. But so what you might be asking why the B, well, we projected that 30% of customers would replace security appliances with cloud-based services and that more than a third would replace their internal data center server and storage hardware with cloud services like 30 and 40% respectively. >>And we don't have explicit survey data on exactly these metrics, but anecdotally we see this happening in earnest. And we do have some data that we're showing here on cloud adoption from ET R'S October survey where the midpoint of workloads running in the cloud is around 34% and forecast, as you can see, to grow steadily over the next three years. So this, well look, this is not, we understand it's not a one-to-one correlation with our prediction, but it's a pretty good bet that we were right, but we gotta take some points off, we think for the lack of unequivocal proof. Cause again, we always strive to make our predictions in ways that can be measured as accurate or not. Is it binary? Did it happen, did it not? Kind of like an O K R and you know, we strive to provide data as proof and in this case it's a bit fuzzy. >>We have to admit that although we're pretty comfortable that the prediction was accurate. And look, when you make an hard forecast, sometimes you gotta pay the price. All right, next, we said in 2022 that the big four cloud players would generate 167 billion in IS and PaaS revenue combining for 38% market growth. And our current forecasts are shown here with a comparison to our January, 2022 figures. So coming into this year now where we are today, so currently we expect 162 billion in total revenue and a 33% growth rate. Still very healthy, but not on our mark. So we think a w s is gonna miss our predictions by about a billion dollars, not, you know, not bad for an 80 billion company. So they're not gonna hit that expectation though of getting really close to a hundred billion run rate. We thought they'd exit the year, you know, closer to, you know, 25 billion a quarter and we don't think they're gonna get there. >>Look, we pretty much nailed Azure even though our prediction W was was correct about g Google Cloud platform surpassing Alibaba, Alibaba, we way overestimated the performance of both of those companies. So we're gonna give ourselves a C plus here and we think, yeah, you might think it's a little bit harsh, we could argue for a B minus to the professor, but the misses on GCP and Alibaba we think warrant a a self penalty on this one. All right, let's move on to our prediction about Supercloud. We said it becomes a thing in 2022 and we think by many accounts it has, despite the naysayers, we're seeing clear evidence that the concept of a layer of value add that sits above and across clouds is taking shape. And on this slide we showed just some of the pickup in the industry. I mean one of the most interesting is CloudFlare, the biggest supercloud antagonist. >>Charles Fitzgerald even predicted that no vendor would ever use the term in their marketing. And that would be proof if that happened that Supercloud was a thing and he said it would never happen. Well CloudFlare has, and they launched their version of Supercloud at their developer week. Chris Miller of the register put out a Supercloud block diagram, something else that Charles Fitzgerald was, it was was pushing us for, which is rightly so, it was a good call on his part. And Chris Miller actually came up with one that's pretty good at David Linthicum also has produced a a a A block diagram, kind of similar, David uses the term metacloud and he uses the term supercloud kind of interchangeably to describe that trend. And so we we're aligned on that front. Brian Gracely has covered the concept on the popular cloud podcast. Berkeley launched the Sky computing initiative. >>You read through that white paper and many of the concepts highlighted in the Supercloud 3.0 community developed definition align with that. Walmart launched a platform with many of the supercloud salient attributes. So did Goldman Sachs, so did Capital One, so did nasdaq. So you know, sorry you can hate the term, but very clearly the evidence is gathering for the super cloud storm. We're gonna take an a plus on this one. Sorry, haters. Alright, let's talk about data mesh in our 21 predictions posts. We said that in the 2020s, 75% of large organizations are gonna re-architect their big data platforms. So kind of a decade long prediction. We don't like to do that always, but sometimes it's warranted. And because it was a longer term prediction, we, at the time in, in coming into 22 when we were evaluating our 21 predictions, we took a grade of incomplete because the sort of decade long or majority of the decade better part of the decade prediction. >>So last year, earlier this year, we said our number seven prediction was data mesh gains momentum in 22. But it's largely confined and narrow data problems with limited scope as you can see here with some of the key bullets. So there's a lot of discussion in the data community about data mesh and while there are an increasing number of examples, JP Morgan Chase, Intuit, H S P C, HelloFresh, and others that are completely rearchitecting parts of their data platform completely rearchitecting entire data platforms is non-trivial. There are organizational challenges, there're data, data ownership, debates, technical considerations, and in particular two of the four fundamental data mesh principles that the, the need for a self-service infrastructure and federated computational governance are challenging. Look, democratizing data and facilitating data sharing creates conflicts with regulatory requirements around data privacy. As such many organizations are being really selective with their data mesh implementations and hence our prediction of narrowing the scope of data mesh initiatives. >>I think that was right on J P M C is a good example of this, where you got a single group within a, within a division narrowly implementing the data mesh architecture. They're using a w s, they're using data lakes, they're using Amazon Glue, creating a catalog and a variety of other techniques to meet their objectives. They kind of automating data quality and it was pretty well thought out and interesting approach and I think it's gonna be made easier by some of the announcements that Amazon made at the recent, you know, reinvent, particularly trying to eliminate ET t l, better connections between Aurora and Redshift and, and, and better data sharing the data clean room. So a lot of that is gonna help. Of course, snowflake has been on this for a while now. Many other companies are facing, you know, limitations as we said here and this slide with their Hadoop data platforms. They need to do new, some new thinking around that to scale. HelloFresh is a really good example of this. Look, the bottom line is that organizations want to get more value from data and having a centralized, highly specialized teams that own the data problem, it's been a barrier and a blocker to success. The data mesh starts with organizational considerations as described in great detail by Ash Nair of Warner Brothers. So take a listen to this clip. >>Yeah, so when people think of Warner Brothers, you always think of like the movie studio, but we're more than that, right? I mean, you think of H B O, you think of t n t, you think of C N N. We have 30 plus brands in our portfolio and each have their own needs. So the, the idea of a data mesh really helps us because what we can do is we can federate access across the company so that, you know, CNN can work at their own pace. You know, when there's election season, they can ingest their own data and they don't have to, you know, bump up against, as an example, HBO if Game of Thrones is going on. >>So it's often the case that data mesh is in the eyes of the implementer. And while a company's implementation may not strictly adhere to Jamma Dani's vision of data mesh, and that's okay, the goal is to use data more effectively. And despite Gartner's attempts to deposition data mesh in favor of the somewhat confusing or frankly far more confusing data fabric concept that they stole from NetApp data mesh is taking hold in organizations globally today. So we're gonna take a B on this one. The prediction is shaping up the way we envision, but as we previously reported, it's gonna take some time. The better part of a decade in our view, new standards have to emerge to make this vision become reality and they'll come in the form of both open and de facto approaches. Okay, our eighth prediction last year focused on the face off between Snowflake and Databricks. >>And we realized this popular topic, and maybe one that's getting a little overplayed, but these are two companies that initially, you know, looked like they were shaping up as partners and they, by the way, they are still partnering in the field. But you go back a couple years ago, the idea of using an AW w s infrastructure, Databricks machine intelligence and applying that on top of Snowflake as a facile data warehouse, still very viable. But both of these companies, they have much larger ambitions. They got big total available markets to chase and large valuations that they have to justify. So what's happening is, as we've previously reported, each of these companies is moving toward the other firm's core domain and they're building out an ecosystem that'll be critical for their future. So as part of that effort, we said each is gonna become aggressive investors and maybe start doing some m and a and they have in various companies. >>And on this chart that we produced last year, we studied some of the companies that were targets and we've added some recent investments of both Snowflake and Databricks. As you can see, they've both, for example, invested in elation snowflake's, put money into Lacework, the Secur security firm, ThoughtSpot, which is trying to democratize data with ai. Collibra is a governance platform and you can see Databricks investments in data transformation with D B T labs, Matillion doing simplified business intelligence hunters. So that's, you know, they're security investment and so forth. So other than our thought that we'd see Databricks I p o last year, this prediction been pretty spot on. So we'll give ourselves an A on that one. Now observability has been a hot topic and we've been covering it for a while with our friends at E T R, particularly Eric Bradley. Our number nine prediction last year was basically that if you're not cloud native and observability, you are gonna be in big trouble. >>So everything guys gotta go cloud native. And that's clearly been the case. Splunk, the big player in the space has been transitioning to the cloud, hasn't always been pretty, as we reported, Datadog real momentum, the elk stack, that's open source model. You got new entrants that we've cited before, like observe, honeycomb, chaos search and others that we've, we've reported on, they're all born in the cloud. So we're gonna take another a on this one, admittedly, yeah, it's a re reasonably easy call, but you gotta have a few of those in the mix. Okay, our last prediction, our number 10 was around events. Something the cube knows a little bit about. We said that a new category of events would emerge as hybrid and that for the most part is happened. So that's gonna be the mainstay is what we said. That pure play virtual events are gonna give way to hi hybrid. >>And the narrative is that virtual only events are, you know, they're good for quick hits, but lousy replacements for in-person events. And you know that said, organizations of all shapes and sizes, they learn how to create better virtual content and support remote audiences during the pandemic. So when we set at pure play is gonna give way to hybrid, we said we, we i we implied or specific or specified that the physical event that v i p experience is going defined. That overall experience and those v i p events would create a little fomo, fear of, of missing out in a virtual component would overlay that serves an audience 10 x the size of the physical. We saw that really two really good examples. Red Hat Summit in Boston, small event, couple thousand people served tens of thousands, you know, online. Second was Google Cloud next v i p event in, in New York City. >>Everything else was, was, was, was virtual. You know, even examples of our prediction of metaverse like immersion have popped up and, and and, and you know, other companies are doing roadshow as we predicted like a lot of companies are doing it. You're seeing that as a major trend where organizations are going with their sales teams out into the regions and doing a little belly to belly action as opposed to the big giant event. That's a definitely a, a trend that we're seeing. So in reviewing this prediction, the grade we gave ourselves is, you know, maybe a bit unfair, it should be, you could argue for a higher grade, but the, but the organization still haven't figured it out. They have hybrid experiences but they generally do a really poor job of leveraging the afterglow and of event of an event. It still tends to be one and done, let's move on to the next event or the next city. >>Let the sales team pick up the pieces if they were paying attention. So because of that, we're only taking a B plus on this one. Okay, so that's the review of last year's predictions. You know, overall if you average out our grade on the 10 predictions that come out to a b plus, I dunno why we can't seem to get that elusive a, but we're gonna keep trying our friends at E T R and we are starting to look at the data for 2023 from the surveys and all the work that we've done on the cube and our, our analysis and we're gonna put together our predictions. We've had literally hundreds of inbounds from PR pros pitching us. We've got this huge thick folder that we've started to review with our yellow highlighter. And our plan is to review it this month, take a look at all the data, get some ideas from the inbounds and then the e t R of January surveys in the field. >>It's probably got a little over a thousand responses right now. You know, they'll get up to, you know, 1400 or so. And once we've digested all that, we're gonna go back and publish our predictions for 2023 sometime in January. So stay tuned for that. All right, we're gonna leave it there for today. You wanna thank Alex Myerson who's on production and he manages the podcast, Ken Schiffman as well out of our, our Boston studio. I gotta really heartfelt thank you to Kristen Martin and Cheryl Knight and their team. They helped get the word out on social and in our newsletters. Rob Ho is our editor in chief over at Silicon Angle who does some great editing for us. Thank you all. Remember all these podcasts are available or all these episodes are available is podcasts. Wherever you listen, just all you do Search Breaking analysis podcast, really getting some great traction there. Appreciate you guys subscribing. I published each week on wikibon.com, silicon angle.com or you can email me directly at david dot valante silicon angle.com or dm me Dante, or you can comment on my LinkedIn post. And please check out ETR AI for the very best survey data in the enterprise tech business. Some awesome stuff in there. This is Dante for the Cube Insights powered by etr. Thanks for watching and we'll see you next time on breaking analysis.

>>This past May, The Cube in collaboration with Influx data shared with you the latest innovations in Time series databases. We talked at length about why a purpose built time series database for many use cases, was a superior alternative to general purpose databases trying to do the same thing. Now, you may, you may remember the time series data is any data that's stamped in time, and if it's stamped, it can be analyzed historically. And when we introduced the concept to the community, we talked about how in theory, those time slices could be taken, you know, every hour, every minute, every second, you know, down to the millisecond and how the world was moving toward realtime or near realtime data analysis to support physical infrastructure like sensors and other devices and IOT equipment. A time series databases have had to evolve to efficiently support realtime data in emerging use cases in iot T and other use cases. >>And to do that, new architectural innovations have to be brought to bear. As is often the case, open source software is the linchpin to those innovations. Hello and welcome to Evolving Influx DB into the smart Data platform, made possible by influx data and produced by the Cube. My name is Dave Valante and I'll be your host today. Now in this program we're going to dig pretty deep into what's happening with Time series data generally, and specifically how Influx DB is evolving to support new workloads and demands and data, and specifically around data analytics use cases in real time. Now, first we're gonna hear from Brian Gilmore, who is the director of IOT and emerging technologies at Influx Data. And we're gonna talk about the continued evolution of Influx DB and the new capabilities enabled by open source generally and specific tools. And in this program you're gonna hear a lot about things like Rust, implementation of Apache Arrow, the use of par k and tooling such as data fusion, which powering a new engine for Influx db. >>Now, these innovations, they evolve the idea of time series analysis by dramatically increasing the granularity of time series data by compressing the historical time slices, if you will, from, for example, minutes down to milliseconds. And at the same time, enabling real time analytics with an architecture that can process data much faster and much more efficiently. Now, after Brian, we're gonna hear from Anna East Dos Georgio, who is a developer advocate at In Flux Data. And we're gonna get into the why of these open source capabilities and how they contribute to the evolution of the Influx DB platform. And then we're gonna close the program with Tim Yokum, he's the director of engineering at Influx Data, and he's gonna explain how the Influx DB community actually evolved the data engine in mid-flight and which decisions went into the innovations that are coming to the market. Thank you for being here. We hope you enjoy the program. Let's get started. Okay, we're kicking things off with Brian Gilmore. He's the director of i t and emerging Technology at Influx State of Bryan. Welcome to the program. Thanks for coming on. >>Thanks Dave. Great to be here. I appreciate the time. >>Hey, explain why Influx db, you know, needs a new engine. Was there something wrong with the current engine? What's going on there? >>No, no, not at all. I mean, I think it's, for us, it's been about staying ahead of the market. I think, you know, if we think about what our customers are coming to us sort of with now, you know, related to requests like sql, you know, query support, things like that, we have to figure out a way to, to execute those for them in a way that will scale long term. And then we also, we wanna make sure we're innovating, we're sort of staying ahead of the market as well and sort of anticipating those future needs. So, you know, this is really a, a transparent change for our customers. I mean, I think we'll be adding new capabilities over time that sort of leverage this new engine, but you know, initially the customers who are using us are gonna see just great improvements in performance, you know, especially those that are working at the top end of the, of the workload scale, you know, the massive data volumes and things like that. >>Yeah, and we're gonna get into that today and the architecture and the like, but what was the catalyst for the enhancements? I mean, when and how did this all come about? >>Well, I mean, like three years ago we were primarily on premises, right? I mean, I think we had our open source, we had an enterprise product, you know, and, and sort of shifting that technology, especially the open source code base to a service basis where we were hosting it through, you know, multiple cloud providers. That was, that was, that was a long journey I guess, you know, phase one was, you know, we wanted to host enterprise for our customers, so we sort of created a service that we just managed and ran our enterprise product for them. You know, phase two of this cloud effort was to, to optimize for like multi-tenant, multi-cloud, be able to, to host it in a truly like sass manner where we could use, you know, some type of customer activity or consumption as the, the pricing vector, you know, And, and that was sort of the birth of the, of the real first influx DB cloud, you know, which has been really successful. >>We've seen, I think like 60,000 people sign up and we've got tons and tons of, of both enterprises as well as like new companies, developers, and of course a lot of home hobbyists and enthusiasts who are using out on a, on a daily basis, you know, and having that sort of big pool of, of very diverse and very customers to chat with as they're using the product, as they're giving us feedback, et cetera, has has, you know, pointed us in a really good direction in terms of making sure we're continuously improving that and then also making these big leaps as we're doing with this, with this new engine. >>Right. So you've called it a transparent change for customers, so I'm presuming it's non-disruptive, but I really wanna understand how much of a pivot this is and what, what does it take to make that shift from, you know, time series, you know, specialist to real time analytics and being able to support both? >>Yeah, I mean, it's much more of an evolution, I think, than like a shift or a pivot. You know, time series data is always gonna be fundamental and sort of the basis of the solutions that we offer our customers, and then also the ones that they're building on the sort of raw APIs of our platform themselves. You know, the time series market is one that we've worked diligently to lead. I mean, I think when it comes to like metrics, especially like sensor data and app and infrastructure metrics, if we're being honest though, I think our, our user base is well aware that the way we were architected was much more towards those sort of like backwards looking historical type analytics, which are key for troubleshooting and making sure you don't, you know, run into the same problem twice. But, you know, we had to ask ourselves like, what can we do to like better handle those queries from a performance and a, and a, you know, a time to response on the queries, and can we get that to the point where the results sets are coming back so quickly from the time of query that we can like limit that window down to minutes and then seconds. >>And now with this new engine, we're really starting to talk about a query window that could be like returning results in, in, you know, milliseconds of time since it hit the, the, the ingest queue. And that's, that's really getting to the point where as your data is available, you can use it and you can query it, you can visualize it, and you can do all those sort of magical things with it, you know? And I think getting all of that to a place where we're saying like, yes to the customer on, you know, all of the, the real time queries, the, the multiple language query support, but, you know, it was hard, but we're now at a spot where we can start introducing that to, you know, a a limited number of customers, strategic customers and strategic availability zones to start. But you know, everybody over time. >>So you're basically going from what happened to in, you can still do that obviously, but to what's happening now in the moment? >>Yeah, yeah. I mean if you think about time, it's always sort of past, right? I mean, like in the moment right now, whether you're talking about like a millisecond ago or a minute ago, you know, that's, that's pretty much right now, I think for most people, especially in these use cases where you have other sort of components of latency induced by the, by the underlying data collection, the architecture, the infrastructure, the, you know, the, the devices and you know, the sort of highly distributed nature of all of this. So yeah, I mean, getting, getting a customer or a user to be able to use the data as soon as it is available is what we're after here. >>I always thought, you know, real, I always thought of real time as before you lose the customer, but now in this context, maybe it's before the machine blows up. >>Yeah, it's, it's, I mean it is operationally or operational real time is different, you know, and that's one of the things that really triggered us to know that we were, we were heading in the right direction, is just how many sort of operational customers we have. You know, everything from like aerospace and defense. We've got companies monitoring satellites, we've got tons of industrial users, users using us as a processes storing on the plant floor, you know, and, and if we can satisfy their sort of demands for like real time historical perspective, that's awesome. I think what we're gonna do here is we're gonna start to like edge into the real time that they're used to in terms of, you know, the millisecond response times that they expect of their control systems, certainly not their, their historians and databases. >>I, is this available, these innovations to influx DB cloud customers only who can access this capability? >>Yeah. I mean commercially and today, yes. You know, I think we want to emphasize that's a, for now our goal is to get our latest and greatest and our best to everybody over time. Of course. You know, one of the things we had to do here was like we double down on sort of our, our commitment to open source and availability. So like anybody today can take a look at the, the libraries in on our GitHub and, you know, can ex inspect it and even can try to, you know, implement or execute some of it themselves in their own infrastructure. You know, we are, we're committed to bringing our sort of latest and greatest to our cloud customers first for a couple of reasons. Number one, you know, there are big workloads and they have high expectations of us. I think number two, it also gives us the opportunity to monitor a little bit more closely how it's working, how they're using it, like how the system itself is performing. >>And so just, you know, being careful, maybe a little cautious in terms of, of, of how big we go with this right away, just sort of both limits, you know, the risk of, of, you know, any issues that can come with new software rollouts. We haven't seen anything so far, but also it does give us the opportunity to have like meaningful conversations with a small group of users who are using the products, but once we get through that and they give us two thumbs up on it, it'll be like, open the gates and let everybody in. It's gonna be exciting time for the whole ecosystem. >>Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And you can do some experimentation and, you know, using the cloud resources. Let's dig into some of the architectural and technical innovations that are gonna help deliver on this vision. What, what should we know there? >>Well, I mean, I think foundationally we built the, the new core on Rust. You know, this is a new very sort of popular systems language, you know, it's extremely efficient, but it's also built for speed and memory safety, which goes back to that us being able to like deliver it in a way that is, you know, something we can inspect very closely, but then also rely on the fact that it's going to behave well. And if it does find error conditions, I mean we, we've loved working with Go and, you know, a lot of our libraries will continue to, to be sort of implemented in Go, but you know, when it came to this particular new engine, you know, that power performance and stability rust was critical. On top of that, like, we've also integrated Apache Arrow and Apache Parque for persistence. I think for anybody who's really familiar with the nuts and bolts of our backend and our TSI and our, our time series merged Trees, this is a big break from that, you know, arrow on the sort of in MI side and then Par K in the on disk side. >>It, it allows us to, to present, you know, a unified set of APIs for those really fast real time inquiries that we talked about, as well as for very large, you know, historical sort of bulk data archives in that PARQUE format, which is also cool because there's an entire ecosystem sort of popping up around Parque in terms of the machine learning community, you know, and getting that all to work, we had to glue it together with aero flight. That's sort of what we're using as our, our RPC component. You know, it handles the orchestration and the, the transportation of the Coer data. Now we're moving to like a true Coer database model for this, this version of the engine, you know, and it removes a lot of overhead for us in terms of having to manage all that serialization, the deserialization, and, you know, to that again, like blurring that line between real time and historical data. It's, you know, it's, it's highly optimized for both streaming micro batch and then batches, but true streaming as well. >>Yeah. Again, I mean, it's funny you mentioned Rust. It is, it's been around for a long time, but it's popularity is, is you know, really starting to hit that steep part of the S-curve. And, and we're gonna dig into to more of that, but give us any, is there anything else that we should know about Bryan? Give us the last word? >>Well, I mean, I think first I'd like everybody sort of watching just to like take a look at what we're offering in terms of early access in beta programs. I mean, if, if, if you wanna participate or if you wanna work sort of in terms of early access with the, with the new engine, please reach out to the team. I'm sure you know, there's a lot of communications going out and you know, it'll be highly featured on our, our website, you know, but reach out to the team, believe it or not, like we have a lot more going on than just the new engine. And so there are also other programs, things we're, we're offering to customers in terms of the user interface, data collection and things like that. And, you know, if you're a customer of ours and you have a sales team, a commercial team that you work with, you can reach out to them and see what you can get access to because we can flip a lot of stuff on, especially in cloud through feature flags. >>But if there's something new that you wanna try out, we'd just love to hear from you. And then, you know, our goal would be that as we give you access to all of these new cool features that, you know, you would give us continuous feedback on these products and services, not only like what you need today, but then what you'll need tomorrow to, to sort of build the next versions of your business. Because you know, the whole database, the ecosystem as it expands out into to, you know, this vertically oriented stack of cloud services and enterprise databases and edge databases, you know, it's gonna be what we all make it together, not just, you know, those of us who were employed by Influx db. And then finally I would just say please, like watch in ICE in Tim's sessions, like these are two of our best and brightest, They're totally brilliant, completely pragmatic, and they are most of all customer obsessed, which is amazing. And there's no better takes, like honestly on the, the sort of technical details of this, then there's, especially when it comes to like the value that these investments will, will bring to our customers and our communities. So encourage you to, to, you know, pay more attention to them than you did to me, for sure. >>Brian Gilmore, great stuff. Really appreciate your time. Thank you. >>Yeah, thanks Dave. It was awesome. Look forward to it. >>Yeah, me too. Looking forward to see how the, the community actually applies these new innovations and goes, goes beyond just the historical into the real time really hot area. As Brian said in a moment, I'll be right back with Anna East dos Georgio to dig into the critical aspects of key open source components of the Influx DB engine, including Rust, Arrow, Parque, data fusion. Keep it right there. You don't wanna miss this >>Time series Data is everywhere. The number of sensors, systems and applications generating time series data increases every day. All these data sources producing so much data can cause analysis paralysis. Influx DB is an entire platform designed with everything you need to quickly build applications that generate value from time series data influx. DB Cloud is a serverless solution, which means you don't need to buy or manage your own servers. There's no need to worry about provisioning because you only pay for what you use. Influx DB Cloud is fully managed so you get the newest features and enhancements as they're added to the platform's code base. It also means you can spend time building solutions and delivering value to your users instead of wasting time and effort managing something else. Influx TVB Cloud offers a range of security features to protect your data, multiple layers of redundancy ensure you don't lose any data access controls ensure that only the people who should see your data can see it. >>And encryption protects your data at rest and in transit between any of our regions or cloud providers. InfluxDB uses a single API across the entire platform suite so you can build on open source, deploy to the cloud and then then easily query data in the cloud at the edge or on prem using the same scripts. And InfluxDB is schemaless automatically adjusting to changes in the shape of your data without requiring changes in your application. Logic. InfluxDB Cloud is production ready from day one. All it needs is your data and your imagination. Get started today@influxdata.com slash cloud. >>Okay, we're back. I'm Dave Valante with a Cube and you're watching evolving Influx DB into the smart data platform made possible by influx data. Anna ETOs Georgio is here, she's a developer advocate for influx data and we're gonna dig into the rationale and value contribution behind several open source technologies that Influx DB is leveraging to increase the granularity of time series analysis analysis and bring the world of data into real-time analytics and is welcome to the program. Thanks for coming on. >>Hi, thank you so much. It's a pleasure to be here. >>Oh, you're very welcome. Okay, so IX is being touted as this next gen open source core for Influx db. And my understanding is that it leverages in memory of course for speed. It's a kilo store, so it gives you a compression efficiency, it's gonna give you faster query speeds, you store files and object storage, so you got very cost effective approach. Are these the salient points on the platform? I know there are probably dozens of other features, but what are the high level value points that people should understand? >>Sure, that's a great question. So some of the main requirements that IOx is trying to achieve and some of the most impressive ones to me, the first one is that it aims to have no limits on cardinality and also allow you to write any kind of event data that you want, whether that's live tag or a field. It also wants to deliver the best in class performance on analytics queries. In addition to our already well served metrics queries, we also wanna have operator control over memory usage. So you should be able to define how much memory is used for buffering caching and query processing. Some other really important parts is the ability to have bulk data export and import super useful. Also broader ecosystem compatibility where possible we aim to use and embrace emerging standards in the data analytics ecosystem and have compatibility with things like sql, Python, and maybe even pandas in the future. >>Okay, so lot there. Now we talked to Brian about how you're using Rust and which is not a new programming language and of course we had some drama around Rust during the pandemic with the Mozilla layoffs, but the formation of the Rust Foundation really addressed any of those concerns. You got big guns like Amazon and Google and Microsoft throwing their collective weights behind it. It's really, the adoption is really starting to get steep on the S-curve. So lots of platforms, lots of adoption with rust, but why rust as an alternative to say c plus plus for example? >>Sure, that's a great question. So Russ was chosen because of his exceptional performance and reliability. So while Russ is synt tactically similar to c plus plus and it has similar performance, it also compiles to a native code like c plus plus. But unlike c plus plus, it also has much better memory safety. So memory safety is protection against bugs or security vulnerabilities that lead to excessive memory usage or memory leaks. And rust achieves this memory safety due to its like innovative type system. Additionally, it doesn't allow for dangling pointers. And dangling pointers are the main classes of errors that lead to exploitable security vulnerabilities in languages like c plus plus. So Russ like helps meet that requirement of having no limits on ality, for example, because it's, we're also using the Russ implementation of Apache Arrow and this control over memory and also Russ Russ's packaging system called crates IO offers everything that you need out of the box to have features like AY and a weight to fix race conditions, to protection against buffering overflows and to ensure thread safe async cashing structures as well. So essentially it's just like has all the control, all the fine grain control, you need to take advantage of memory and all your resources as well as possible so that you can handle those really, really high ity use cases. >>Yeah, and the more I learn about the, the new engine and, and the platform IOCs et cetera, you know, you, you see things like, you know, the old days not even to even today you do a lot of garbage collection in these, in these systems and there's an inverse, you know, impact relative to performance. So it looks like you really, you know, the community is modernizing the platform, but I wanna talk about Apache Arrow for a moment. It it's designed to address the constraints that are associated with analyzing large data sets. We, we know that, but please explain why, what, what is Arrow and and what does it bring to Influx db? >>Sure, yeah. So Arrow is a, a framework for defining in memory calmer data. And so much of the efficiency and performance of IOx comes from taking advantage of calmer data structures. And I will, if you don't mind, take a moment to kind of of illustrate why column or data structures are so valuable. Let's pretend that we are gathering field data about the temperature in our room and also maybe the temperature of our stove. And in our table we have those two temperature values as well as maybe a measurement value, timestamp value, maybe some other tag values that describe what room and what house, et cetera we're getting this data from. And so you can picture this table where we have like two rows with the two temperature values for both our room and the stove. Well usually our room temperature is regulated so those values don't change very often. >>So when you have calm oriented st calm oriented storage, essentially you take each row, each column and group it together. And so if that's the case and you're just taking temperature values from the room and a lot of those temperature values are the same, then you'll, you might be able to imagine how equal values will then enable each other and when they neighbor each other in the storage format, this provides a really perfect opportunity for cheap compression. And then this cheap compression enables high cardinality use cases. It also enables for faster scan rates. So if you wanna define like the men and max value of the temperature in the room across a thousand different points, you only have to get those a thousand different points in order to answer that question and you have those immediately available to you. But let's contrast this with a row oriented storage solution instead so that we can understand better the benefits of calmer oriented storage. >>So if you had a row oriented storage, you'd first have to look at every field like the temperature in, in the room and the temperature of the stove. You'd have to go across every tag value that maybe describes where the room is located or what model the stove is. And every timestamp you'd then have to pluck out that one temperature value that you want at that one time stamp and do that for every single row. So you're scanning across a ton more data and that's why Rowe Oriented doesn't provide the same efficiency as calmer and Apache Arrow is in memory calmer data, commoner data fit framework. So that's where a lot of the advantages come >>From. Okay. So you basically described like a traditional database, a row approach, but I've seen like a lot of traditional database say, okay, now we've got, we can handle colo format versus what you're talking about is really, you know, kind of native i, is it not as effective? Is the, is the foreman not as effective because it's largely a, a bolt on? Can you, can you like elucidate on that front? >>Yeah, it's, it's not as effective because you have more expensive compression and because you can't scan across the values as quickly. And so those are, that's pretty much the main reasons why, why RO row oriented storage isn't as efficient as calm, calmer oriented storage. Yeah. >>Got it. So let's talk about Arrow Data Fusion. What is data fusion? I know it's written in Rust, but what does it bring to the table here? >>Sure. So it's an extensible query execution framework and it uses Arrow as it's in memory format. So the way that it helps in influx DB IOCs is that okay, it's great if you can write unlimited amount of cardinality into influx Cbis, but if you don't have a query engine that can successfully query that data, then I don't know how much value it is for you. So Data fusion helps enable the, the query process and transformation of that data. It also has a PANDAS API so that you could take advantage of PANDAS data frames as well and all of the machine learning tools associated with Pandas. >>Okay. You're also leveraging Par K in the platform cause we heard a lot about Par K in the middle of the last decade cuz as a storage format to improve on Hadoop column stores. What are you doing with Parque and why is it important? >>Sure. So parque is the column oriented durable file format. So it's important because it'll enable bulk import, bulk export, it has compatibility with Python and Pandas, so it supports a broader ecosystem. Par K files also take very little disc disc space and they're faster to scan because again, they're column oriented in particular, I think PAR K files are like 16 times cheaper than CSV files, just as kind of a point of reference. And so that's essentially a lot of the, the benefits of par k. >>Got it. Very popular. So and he's, what exactly is influx data focusing on as a committer to these projects? What is your focus? What's the value that you're bringing to the community? >>Sure. So Influx DB first has contributed a lot of different, different things to the Apache ecosystem. For example, they contribute an implementation of Apache Arrow and go and that will support clearing with flux. Also, there has been a quite a few contributions to data fusion for things like memory optimization and supportive additional SQL features like support for timestamp, arithmetic and support for exist clauses and support for memory control. So yeah, Influx has contributed a a lot to the Apache ecosystem and continues to do so. And I think kind of the idea here is that if you can improve these upstream projects and then the long term strategy here is that the more you contribute and build those up, then the more you will perpetuate that cycle of improvement and the more we will invest in our own project as well. So it's just that kind of symbiotic relationship and appreciation of the open source community. >>Yeah. Got it. You got that virtuous cycle going, the people call the flywheel. Give us your last thoughts and kind of summarize, you know, where what, what the big takeaways are from your perspective. >>So I think the big takeaway is that influx data is doing a lot of really exciting things with Influx DB IOx and I really encourage, if you are interested in learning more about the technologies that Influx is leveraging to produce IOCs, the challenges associated with it and all of the hard work questions and you just wanna learn more, then I would encourage you to go to the monthly Tech talks and community office hours and they are on every second Wednesday of the month at 8:30 AM Pacific time. There's also a community forums and a community Slack channel look for the influx DDB unders IAC channel specifically to learn more about how to join those office hours and those monthly tech tech talks as well as ask any questions they have about iacs, what to expect and what you'd like to learn more about. I as a developer advocate, I wanna answer your questions. So if there's a particular technology or stack that you wanna dive deeper into and want more explanation about how INFLUX DB leverages it to build IOCs, I will be really excited to produce content on that topic for you. >>Yeah, that's awesome. You guys have a really rich community, collaborate with your peers, solve problems, and, and you guys super responsive, so really appreciate that. All right, thank you so much Anise for explaining all this open source stuff to the audience and why it's important to the future of data. >>Thank you. I really appreciate it. >>All right, you're very welcome. Okay, stay right there and in a moment I'll be back with Tim Yoakum, he's the director of engineering for Influx Data and we're gonna talk about how you update a SAS engine while the plane is flying at 30,000 feet. You don't wanna miss this. >>I'm really glad that we went with InfluxDB Cloud for our hosting because it has saved us a ton of time. It's helped us move faster, it's saved us money. And also InfluxDB has good support. My name's Alex Nada. I am CTO at Noble nine. Noble Nine is a platform to measure and manage service level objectives, which is a great way of measuring the reliability of your systems. You can essentially think of an slo, the product we're providing to our customers as a bunch of time series. So we need a way to store that data and the corresponding time series that are related to those. The main reason that we settled on InfluxDB as we were shopping around is that InfluxDB has a very flexible query language and as a general purpose time series database, it basically had the set of features we were looking for. >>As our platform has grown, we found InfluxDB Cloud to be a really scalable solution. We can quickly iterate on new features and functionality because Influx Cloud is entirely managed, it probably saved us at least a full additional person on our team. We also have the option of running InfluxDB Enterprise, which gives us the ability to even host off the cloud or in a private cloud if that's preferred by a customer. Influx data has been really flexible in adapting to the hosting requirements that we have. They listened to the challenges we were facing and they helped us solve it. As we've continued to grow, I'm really happy we have influx data by our side. >>Okay, we're back with Tim Yokum, who is the director of engineering at Influx Data. Tim, welcome. Good to see you. >>Good to see you. Thanks for having me. >>You're really welcome. Listen, we've been covering open source software in the cube for more than a decade, and we've kind of watched the innovation from the big data ecosystem. The cloud has been being built out on open source, mobile, social platforms, key databases, and of course influx DB and influx data has been a big consumer and contributor of open source software. So my question to you is, where have you seen the biggest bang for the buck from open source software? >>So yeah, you know, influx really, we thrive at the intersection of commercial services and open, so open source software. So OSS keeps us on the cutting edge. We benefit from OSS in delivering our own service from our core storage engine technologies to web services temping engines. Our, our team stays lean and focused because we build on proven tools. We really build on the shoulders of giants and like you've mentioned, even better, we contribute a lot back to the projects that we use as well as our own product influx db. >>You know, but I gotta ask you, Tim, because one of the challenge that that we've seen in particular, you saw this in the heyday of Hadoop, the, the innovations come so fast and furious and as a software company you gotta place bets, you gotta, you know, commit people and sometimes those bets can be risky and not pay off well, how have you managed this challenge? >>Oh, it moves fast. Yeah, that, that's a benefit though because it, the community moves so quickly that today's hot technology can be tomorrow's dinosaur. And what we, what we tend to do is, is we fail fast and fail often. We try a lot of things. You know, you look at Kubernetes for example, that ecosystem is driven by thousands of intelligent developers, engineers, builders, they're adding value every day. So we have to really keep up with that. And as the stack changes, we, we try different technologies, we try different methods, and at the end of the day, we come up with a better platform as a result of just the constant change in the environment. It is a challenge for us, but it's, it's something that we just do every day. >>So we have a survey partner down in New York City called Enterprise Technology Research etr, and they do these quarterly surveys of about 1500 CIOs, IT practitioners, and they really have a good pulse on what's happening with spending. And the data shows that containers generally, but specifically Kubernetes is one of the areas that has kind of, it's been off the charts and seen the most significant adoption and velocity particularly, you know, along with cloud. But, but really Kubernetes is just, you know, still up until the right consistently even with, you know, the macro headwinds and all, all of the stuff that we're sick of talking about. But, so what are you doing with Kubernetes in the platform? >>Yeah, it, it's really central to our ability to run the product. When we first started out, we were just on AWS and, and the way we were running was, was a little bit like containers junior. Now we're running Kubernetes everywhere at aws, Azure, Google Cloud. It allows us to have a consistent experience across three different cloud providers and we can manage that in code so our developers can focus on delivering services, not trying to learn the intricacies of Amazon, Azure, and Google and figure out how to deliver services on those three clouds with all of their differences. >>Just to follow up on that, is it, no. So I presume it's sounds like there's a PAs layer there to allow you guys to have a consistent experience across clouds and out to the edge, you know, wherever is that, is that correct? >>Yeah, so we've basically built more or less platform engineering, This is the new hot phrase, you know, it, it's, Kubernetes has made a lot of things easy for us because we've built a platform that our developers can lean on and they only have to learn one way of deploying their application, managing their application. And so that, that just gets all of the underlying infrastructure out of the way and, and lets them focus on delivering influx cloud. >>Yeah, and I know I'm taking a little bit of a tangent, but is that, that, I'll call it a PAs layer if I can use that term. Is that, are there specific attributes to Influx db or is it kind of just generally off the shelf paths? You know, are there, is, is there any purpose built capability there that, that is, is value add or is it pretty much generic? >>So we really build, we, we look at things through, with a build versus buy through a, a build versus by lens. Some things we want to leverage cloud provider services, for instance, Postgres databases for metadata, perhaps we'll get that off of our plate, let someone else run that. We're going to deploy a platform that our engineers can, can deliver on that has consistency that is, is all generated from code that we can as a, as an SRE group, as an ops team, that we can manage with very few people really, and we can stamp out clusters across multiple regions and in no time. >>So how, so sometimes you build, sometimes you buy it. How do you make those decisions and and what does that mean for the, for the platform and for customers? >>Yeah, so what we're doing is, it's like everybody else will do, we're we're looking for trade offs that make sense. You know, we really want to protect our customers data. So we look for services that support our own software with the most uptime, reliability, and durability we can get. Some things are just going to be easier to have a cloud provider take care of on our behalf. We make that transparent for our own team. And of course for customers you don't even see that, but we don't want to try to reinvent the wheel, like I had mentioned with SQL data stores for metadata, perhaps let's build on top of what of these three large cloud providers have already perfected. And we can then focus on our platform engineering and we can have our developers then focus on the influx data, software, influx, cloud software. >>So take it to the customer level, what does it mean for them? What's the value that they're gonna get out of all these innovations that we've been been talking about today and what can they expect in the future? >>So first of all, people who use the OSS product are really gonna be at home on our cloud platform. You can run it on your desktop machine, on a single server, what have you, but then you want to scale up. We have some 270 terabytes of data across, over 4 billion series keys that people have stored. So there's a proven ability to scale now in terms of the open source, open source software and how we've developed the platform. You're getting highly available high cardinality time series platform. We manage it and, and really as, as I mentioned earlier, we can keep up with the state of the art. We keep reinventing, we keep deploying things in real time. We deploy to our platform every day repeatedly all the time. And it's that continuous deployment that allows us to continue testing things in flight, rolling things out that change new features, better ways of doing deployments, safer ways of doing deployments. >>All of that happens behind the scenes. And like we had mentioned earlier, Kubernetes, I mean that, that allows us to get that done. We couldn't do it without having that platform as a, as a base layer for us to then put our software on. So we, we iterate quickly. When you're on the, the Influx cloud platform, you really are able to, to take advantage of new features immediately. We roll things out every day and as those things go into production, you have, you have the ability to, to use them. And so in the end we want you to focus on getting actual insights from your data instead of running infrastructure, you know, let, let us do that for you. So, >>And that makes sense, but so is the, is the, are the innovations that we're talking about in the evolution of Influx db, do, do you see that as sort of a natural evolution for existing customers? I, is it, I'm sure the answer is both, but is it opening up new territory for customers? Can you add some color to that? >>Yeah, it really is it, it's a little bit of both. Any engineer will say, well, it depends. So cloud native technologies are, are really the hot thing. Iot, industrial iot especially, people want to just shove tons of data out there and be able to do queries immediately and they don't wanna manage infrastructure. What we've started to see are people that use the cloud service as their, their data store backbone and then they use edge computing with R OSS product to ingest data from say, multiple production lines and downsample that data, send the rest of that data off influx cloud where the heavy processing takes place. So really us being in all the different clouds and iterating on that and being in all sorts of different regions allows for people to really get out of the, the business of man trying to manage that big data, have us take care of that. And of course as we change the platform end users benefit from that immediately. And, >>And so obviously taking away a lot of the heavy lifting for the infrastructure, would you say the same thing about security, especially as you go out to IOT and the Edge? How should we be thinking about the value that you bring from a security perspective? >>Yeah, we take, we take security super seriously. It, it's built into our dna. We do a lot of work to ensure that our platform is secure, that the data we store is, is kept private. It's of course always a concern. You see in the news all the time, companies being compromised, you know, that's something that you can have an entire team working on, which we do to make sure that the data that you have, whether it's in transit, whether it's at rest, is always kept secure, is only viewable by you. You know, you look at things like software, bill of materials, if you're running this yourself, you have to go vet all sorts of different pieces of software. And we do that, you know, as we use new tools. That's something that, that's just part of our jobs to make sure that the platform that we're running it has, has fully vetted software and, and with open source especially, that's a lot of work. And so it's, it's definitely new territory. Supply chain attacks are, are definitely happening at a higher clip than they used to, but that is, that is really just part of a day in the, the life for folks like us that are, are building platforms. >>Yeah, and that's key. I mean especially when you start getting into the, the, you know, we talk about IOT and the operations technologies, the engineers running the, that infrastructure, you know, historically, as you know, Tim, they, they would air gap everything. That's how they kept it safe. But that's not feasible anymore. Everything's >>That >>Connected now, right? And so you've gotta have a partner that is again, take away that heavy lifting to r and d so you can focus on some of the other activities. Right. Give us the, the last word and the, the key takeaways from your perspective. >>Well, you know, from my perspective I see it as, as a a two lane approach with, with influx, with Anytime series data, you know, you've got a lot of stuff that you're gonna run on-prem, what you had mentioned, air gaping. Sure there's plenty of need for that, but at the end of the day, people that don't want to run big data centers, people that want torus their data to, to a company that's, that's got a full platform set up for them that they can build on, send that data over to the cloud, the cloud is not going away. I think more hybrid approach is, is where the future lives and that's what we're prepared for. >>Tim, really appreciate you coming to the program. Great stuff. Good to see you. >>Thanks very much. Appreciate it. >>Okay, in a moment I'll be back to wrap up. Today's session, you're watching The Cube. >>Are you looking for some help getting started with InfluxDB Telegraph or Flux Check >>Out Influx DB University >>Where you can find our entire catalog of free training that will help you make the most of your time series data >>Get >>Started for free@influxdbu.com. >>We'll see you in class. >>Okay, so we heard today from three experts on time series and data, how the Influx DB platform is evolving to support new ways of analyzing large data sets very efficiently and effectively in real time. And we learned that key open source components like Apache Arrow and the Rust Programming environment Data fusion par K are being leveraged to support realtime data analytics at scale. We also learned about the contributions in importance of open source software and how the Influx DB community is evolving the platform with minimal disruption to support new workloads, new use cases, and the future of realtime data analytics. Now remember these sessions, they're all available on demand. You can go to the cube.net to find those. Don't forget to check out silicon angle.com for all the news related to things enterprise and emerging tech. And you should also check out influx data.com. There you can learn about the company's products. You'll find developer resources like free courses. You could join the developer community and work with your peers to learn and solve problems. And there are plenty of other resources around use cases and customer stories on the website. This is Dave Valante. Thank you for watching Evolving Influx DB into the smart data platform, made possible by influx data and brought to you by the Cube, your leader in enterprise and emerging tech coverage.

>>This past May, The Cube in collaboration with Influx data shared with you the latest innovations in Time series databases. We talked at length about why a purpose built time series database for many use cases, was a superior alternative to general purpose databases trying to do the same thing. Now, you may, you may remember the time series data is any data that's stamped in time, and if it's stamped, it can be analyzed historically. And when we introduced the concept to the community, we talked about how in theory, those time slices could be taken, you know, every hour, every minute, every second, you know, down to the millisecond and how the world was moving toward realtime or near realtime data analysis to support physical infrastructure like sensors and other devices and IOT equipment. A time series databases have had to evolve to efficiently support realtime data in emerging use cases in iot T and other use cases. >>And to do that, new architectural innovations have to be brought to bear. As is often the case, open source software is the linchpin to those innovations. Hello and welcome to Evolving Influx DB into the smart Data platform, made possible by influx data and produced by the Cube. My name is Dave Valante and I'll be your host today. Now in this program we're going to dig pretty deep into what's happening with Time series data generally, and specifically how Influx DB is evolving to support new workloads and demands and data, and specifically around data analytics use cases in real time. Now, first we're gonna hear from Brian Gilmore, who is the director of IOT and emerging technologies at Influx Data. And we're gonna talk about the continued evolution of Influx DB and the new capabilities enabled by open source generally and specific tools. And in this program you're gonna hear a lot about things like Rust, implementation of Apache Arrow, the use of par k and tooling such as data fusion, which powering a new engine for Influx db. >>Now, these innovations, they evolve the idea of time series analysis by dramatically increasing the granularity of time series data by compressing the historical time slices, if you will, from, for example, minutes down to milliseconds. And at the same time, enabling real time analytics with an architecture that can process data much faster and much more efficiently. Now, after Brian, we're gonna hear from Anna East Dos Georgio, who is a developer advocate at In Flux Data. And we're gonna get into the why of these open source capabilities and how they contribute to the evolution of the Influx DB platform. And then we're gonna close the program with Tim Yokum, he's the director of engineering at Influx Data, and he's gonna explain how the Influx DB community actually evolved the data engine in mid-flight and which decisions went into the innovations that are coming to the market. Thank you for being here. We hope you enjoy the program. Let's get started. Okay, we're kicking things off with Brian Gilmore. He's the director of i t and emerging Technology at Influx State of Bryan. Welcome to the program. Thanks for coming on. >>Thanks Dave. Great to be here. I appreciate the time. >>Hey, explain why Influx db, you know, needs a new engine. Was there something wrong with the current engine? What's going on there? >>No, no, not at all. I mean, I think it's, for us, it's been about staying ahead of the market. I think, you know, if we think about what our customers are coming to us sort of with now, you know, related to requests like sql, you know, query support, things like that, we have to figure out a way to, to execute those for them in a way that will scale long term. And then we also, we wanna make sure we're innovating, we're sort of staying ahead of the market as well and sort of anticipating those future needs. So, you know, this is really a, a transparent change for our customers. I mean, I think we'll be adding new capabilities over time that sort of leverage this new engine, but you know, initially the customers who are using us are gonna see just great improvements in performance, you know, especially those that are working at the top end of the, of the workload scale, you know, the massive data volumes and things like that. >>Yeah, and we're gonna get into that today and the architecture and the like, but what was the catalyst for the enhancements? I mean, when and how did this all come about? >>Well, I mean, like three years ago we were primarily on premises, right? I mean, I think we had our open source, we had an enterprise product, you know, and, and sort of shifting that technology, especially the open source code base to a service basis where we were hosting it through, you know, multiple cloud providers. That was, that was, that was a long journey I guess, you know, phase one was, you know, we wanted to host enterprise for our customers, so we sort of created a service that we just managed and ran our enterprise product for them. You know, phase two of this cloud effort was to, to optimize for like multi-tenant, multi-cloud, be able to, to host it in a truly like sass manner where we could use, you know, some type of customer activity or consumption as the, the pricing vector, you know, And, and that was sort of the birth of the, of the real first influx DB cloud, you know, which has been really successful. >>We've seen, I think like 60,000 people sign up and we've got tons and tons of, of both enterprises as well as like new companies, developers, and of course a lot of home hobbyists and enthusiasts who are using out on a, on a daily basis, you know, and having that sort of big pool of, of very diverse and very customers to chat with as they're using the product, as they're giving us feedback, et cetera, has has, you know, pointed us in a really good direction in terms of making sure we're continuously improving that and then also making these big leaps as we're doing with this, with this new engine. >>Right. So you've called it a transparent change for customers, so I'm presuming it's non-disruptive, but I really wanna understand how much of a pivot this is and what, what does it take to make that shift from, you know, time series, you know, specialist to real time analytics and being able to support both? >>Yeah, I mean, it's much more of an evolution, I think, than like a shift or a pivot. You know, time series data is always gonna be fundamental and sort of the basis of the solutions that we offer our customers, and then also the ones that they're building on the sort of raw APIs of our platform themselves. You know, the time series market is one that we've worked diligently to lead. I mean, I think when it comes to like metrics, especially like sensor data and app and infrastructure metrics, if we're being honest though, I think our, our user base is well aware that the way we were architected was much more towards those sort of like backwards looking historical type analytics, which are key for troubleshooting and making sure you don't, you know, run into the same problem twice. But, you know, we had to ask ourselves like, what can we do to like better handle those queries from a performance and a, and a, you know, a time to response on the queries, and can we get that to the point where the results sets are coming back so quickly from the time of query that we can like limit that window down to minutes and then seconds. >>And now with this new engine, we're really starting to talk about a query window that could be like returning results in, in, you know, milliseconds of time since it hit the, the, the ingest queue. And that's, that's really getting to the point where as your data is available, you can use it and you can query it, you can visualize it, and you can do all those sort of magical things with it, you know? And I think getting all of that to a place where we're saying like, yes to the customer on, you know, all of the, the real time queries, the, the multiple language query support, but, you know, it was hard, but we're now at a spot where we can start introducing that to, you know, a a limited number of customers, strategic customers and strategic availability zones to start. But you know, everybody over time. >>So you're basically going from what happened to in, you can still do that obviously, but to what's happening now in the moment? >>Yeah, yeah. I mean if you think about time, it's always sort of past, right? I mean, like in the moment right now, whether you're talking about like a millisecond ago or a minute ago, you know, that's, that's pretty much right now, I think for most people, especially in these use cases where you have other sort of components of latency induced by the, by the underlying data collection, the architecture, the infrastructure, the, you know, the, the devices and you know, the sort of highly distributed nature of all of this. So yeah, I mean, getting, getting a customer or a user to be able to use the data as soon as it is available is what we're after here. >>I always thought, you know, real, I always thought of real time as before you lose the customer, but now in this context, maybe it's before the machine blows up. >>Yeah, it's, it's, I mean it is operationally or operational real time is different, you know, and that's one of the things that really triggered us to know that we were, we were heading in the right direction, is just how many sort of operational customers we have. You know, everything from like aerospace and defense. We've got companies monitoring satellites, we've got tons of industrial users, users using us as a processes storing on the plant floor, you know, and, and if we can satisfy their sort of demands for like real time historical perspective, that's awesome. I think what we're gonna do here is we're gonna start to like edge into the real time that they're used to in terms of, you know, the millisecond response times that they expect of their control systems, certainly not their, their historians and databases. >>I, is this available, these innovations to influx DB cloud customers only who can access this capability? >>Yeah. I mean commercially and today, yes. You know, I think we want to emphasize that's a, for now our goal is to get our latest and greatest and our best to everybody over time. Of course. You know, one of the things we had to do here was like we double down on sort of our, our commitment to open source and availability. So like anybody today can take a look at the, the libraries in on our GitHub and, you know, can ex inspect it and even can try to, you know, implement or execute some of it themselves in their own infrastructure. You know, we are, we're committed to bringing our sort of latest and greatest to our cloud customers first for a couple of reasons. Number one, you know, there are big workloads and they have high expectations of us. I think number two, it also gives us the opportunity to monitor a little bit more closely how it's working, how they're using it, like how the system itself is performing. >>And so just, you know, being careful, maybe a little cautious in terms of, of, of how big we go with this right away, just sort of both limits, you know, the risk of, of, you know, any issues that can come with new software rollouts. We haven't seen anything so far, but also it does give us the opportunity to have like meaningful conversations with a small group of users who are using the products, but once we get through that and they give us two thumbs up on it, it'll be like, open the gates and let everybody in. It's gonna be exciting time for the whole ecosystem. >>Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And you can do some experimentation and, you know, using the cloud resources. Let's dig into some of the architectural and technical innovations that are gonna help deliver on this vision. What, what should we know there? >>Well, I mean, I think foundationally we built the, the new core on Rust. You know, this is a new very sort of popular systems language, you know, it's extremely efficient, but it's also built for speed and memory safety, which goes back to that us being able to like deliver it in a way that is, you know, something we can inspect very closely, but then also rely on the fact that it's going to behave well. And if it does find error conditions, I mean we, we've loved working with Go and, you know, a lot of our libraries will continue to, to be sort of implemented in Go, but you know, when it came to this particular new engine, you know, that power performance and stability rust was critical. On top of that, like, we've also integrated Apache Arrow and Apache Parque for persistence. I think for anybody who's really familiar with the nuts and bolts of our backend and our TSI and our, our time series merged Trees, this is a big break from that, you know, arrow on the sort of in MI side and then Par K in the on disk side. >>It, it allows us to, to present, you know, a unified set of APIs for those really fast real time inquiries that we talked about, as well as for very large, you know, historical sort of bulk data archives in that PARQUE format, which is also cool because there's an entire ecosystem sort of popping up around Parque in terms of the machine learning community, you know, and getting that all to work, we had to glue it together with aero flight. That's sort of what we're using as our, our RPC component. You know, it handles the orchestration and the, the transportation of the Coer data. Now we're moving to like a true Coer database model for this, this version of the engine, you know, and it removes a lot of overhead for us in terms of having to manage all that serialization, the deserialization, and, you know, to that again, like blurring that line between real time and historical data. It's, you know, it's, it's highly optimized for both streaming micro batch and then batches, but true streaming as well. >>Yeah. Again, I mean, it's funny you mentioned Rust. It is, it's been around for a long time, but it's popularity is, is you know, really starting to hit that steep part of the S-curve. And, and we're gonna dig into to more of that, but give us any, is there anything else that we should know about Bryan? Give us the last word? >>Well, I mean, I think first I'd like everybody sort of watching just to like take a look at what we're offering in terms of early access in beta programs. I mean, if, if, if you wanna participate or if you wanna work sort of in terms of early access with the, with the new engine, please reach out to the team. I'm sure you know, there's a lot of communications going out and you know, it'll be highly featured on our, our website, you know, but reach out to the team, believe it or not, like we have a lot more going on than just the new engine. And so there are also other programs, things we're, we're offering to customers in terms of the user interface, data collection and things like that. And, you know, if you're a customer of ours and you have a sales team, a commercial team that you work with, you can reach out to them and see what you can get access to because we can flip a lot of stuff on, especially in cloud through feature flags. >>But if there's something new that you wanna try out, we'd just love to hear from you. And then, you know, our goal would be that as we give you access to all of these new cool features that, you know, you would give us continuous feedback on these products and services, not only like what you need today, but then what you'll need tomorrow to, to sort of build the next versions of your business. Because you know, the whole database, the ecosystem as it expands out into to, you know, this vertically oriented stack of cloud services and enterprise databases and edge databases, you know, it's gonna be what we all make it together, not just, you know, those of us who were employed by Influx db. And then finally I would just say please, like watch in ICE in Tim's sessions, like these are two of our best and brightest, They're totally brilliant, completely pragmatic, and they are most of all customer obsessed, which is amazing. And there's no better takes, like honestly on the, the sort of technical details of this, then there's, especially when it comes to like the value that these investments will, will bring to our customers and our communities. So encourage you to, to, you know, pay more attention to them than you did to me, for sure. >>Brian Gilmore, great stuff. Really appreciate your time. Thank you. >>Yeah, thanks Dave. It was awesome. Look forward to it. >>Yeah, me too. Looking forward to see how the, the community actually applies these new innovations and goes, goes beyond just the historical into the real time really hot area. As Brian said in a moment, I'll be right back with Anna East dos Georgio to dig into the critical aspects of key open source components of the Influx DB engine, including Rust, Arrow, Parque, data fusion. Keep it right there. You don't wanna miss this >>Time series Data is everywhere. The number of sensors, systems and applications generating time series data increases every day. All these data sources producing so much data can cause analysis paralysis. Influx DB is an entire platform designed with everything you need to quickly build applications that generate value from time series data influx. DB Cloud is a serverless solution, which means you don't need to buy or manage your own servers. There's no need to worry about provisioning because you only pay for what you use. Influx DB Cloud is fully managed so you get the newest features and enhancements as they're added to the platform's code base. It also means you can spend time building solutions and delivering value to your users instead of wasting time and effort managing something else. Influx TVB Cloud offers a range of security features to protect your data, multiple layers of redundancy ensure you don't lose any data access controls ensure that only the people who should see your data can see it. >>And encryption protects your data at rest and in transit between any of our regions or cloud providers. InfluxDB uses a single API across the entire platform suite so you can build on open source, deploy to the cloud and then then easily query data in the cloud at the edge or on prem using the same scripts. And InfluxDB is schemaless automatically adjusting to changes in the shape of your data without requiring changes in your application. Logic. InfluxDB Cloud is production ready from day one. All it needs is your data and your imagination. Get started today@influxdata.com slash cloud. >>Okay, we're back. I'm Dave Valante with a Cube and you're watching evolving Influx DB into the smart data platform made possible by influx data. Anna ETOs Georgio is here, she's a developer advocate for influx data and we're gonna dig into the rationale and value contribution behind several open source technologies that Influx DB is leveraging to increase the granularity of time series analysis analysis and bring the world of data into real-time analytics and is welcome to the program. Thanks for coming on. >>Hi, thank you so much. It's a pleasure to be here. >>Oh, you're very welcome. Okay, so IX is being touted as this next gen open source core for Influx db. And my understanding is that it leverages in memory of course for speed. It's a kilo store, so it gives you a compression efficiency, it's gonna give you faster query speeds, you store files and object storage, so you got very cost effective approach. Are these the salient points on the platform? I know there are probably dozens of other features, but what are the high level value points that people should understand? >>Sure, that's a great question. So some of the main requirements that IOx is trying to achieve and some of the most impressive ones to me, the first one is that it aims to have no limits on cardinality and also allow you to write any kind of event data that you want, whether that's live tag or a field. It also wants to deliver the best in class performance on analytics queries. In addition to our already well served metrics queries, we also wanna have operator control over memory usage. So you should be able to define how much memory is used for buffering caching and query processing. Some other really important parts is the ability to have bulk data export and import super useful. Also broader ecosystem compatibility where possible we aim to use and embrace emerging standards in the data analytics ecosystem and have compatibility with things like sql, Python, and maybe even pandas in the future. >>Okay, so lot there. Now we talked to Brian about how you're using Rust and which is not a new programming language and of course we had some drama around Rust during the pandemic with the Mozilla layoffs, but the formation of the Rust Foundation really addressed any of those concerns. You got big guns like Amazon and Google and Microsoft throwing their collective weights behind it. It's really, the adoption is really starting to get steep on the S-curve. So lots of platforms, lots of adoption with rust, but why rust as an alternative to say c plus plus for example? >>Sure, that's a great question. So Russ was chosen because of his exceptional performance and reliability. So while Russ is synt tactically similar to c plus plus and it has similar performance, it also compiles to a native code like c plus plus. But unlike c plus plus, it also has much better memory safety. So memory safety is protection against bugs or security vulnerabilities that lead to excessive memory usage or memory leaks. And rust achieves this memory safety due to its like innovative type system. Additionally, it doesn't allow for dangling pointers. And dangling pointers are the main classes of errors that lead to exploitable security vulnerabilities in languages like c plus plus. So Russ like helps meet that requirement of having no limits on ality, for example, because it's, we're also using the Russ implementation of Apache Arrow and this control over memory and also Russ Russ's packaging system called crates IO offers everything that you need out of the box to have features like AY and a weight to fix race conditions, to protection against buffering overflows and to ensure thread safe async cashing structures as well. So essentially it's just like has all the control, all the fine grain control, you need to take advantage of memory and all your resources as well as possible so that you can handle those really, really high ity use cases. >>Yeah, and the more I learn about the, the new engine and, and the platform IOCs et cetera, you know, you, you see things like, you know, the old days not even to even today you do a lot of garbage collection in these, in these systems and there's an inverse, you know, impact relative to performance. So it looks like you really, you know, the community is modernizing the platform, but I wanna talk about Apache Arrow for a moment. It it's designed to address the constraints that are associated with analyzing large data sets. We, we know that, but please explain why, what, what is Arrow and and what does it bring to Influx db? >>Sure, yeah. So Arrow is a, a framework for defining in memory calmer data. And so much of the efficiency and performance of IOx comes from taking advantage of calmer data structures. And I will, if you don't mind, take a moment to kind of of illustrate why column or data structures are so valuable. Let's pretend that we are gathering field data about the temperature in our room and also maybe the temperature of our stove. And in our table we have those two temperature values as well as maybe a measurement value, timestamp value, maybe some other tag values that describe what room and what house, et cetera we're getting this data from. And so you can picture this table where we have like two rows with the two temperature values for both our room and the stove. Well usually our room temperature is regulated so those values don't change very often. >>So when you have calm oriented st calm oriented storage, essentially you take each row, each column and group it together. And so if that's the case and you're just taking temperature values from the room and a lot of those temperature values are the same, then you'll, you might be able to imagine how equal values will then enable each other and when they neighbor each other in the storage format, this provides a really perfect opportunity for cheap compression. And then this cheap compression enables high cardinality use cases. It also enables for faster scan rates. So if you wanna define like the men and max value of the temperature in the room across a thousand different points, you only have to get those a thousand different points in order to answer that question and you have those immediately available to you. But let's contrast this with a row oriented storage solution instead so that we can understand better the benefits of calmer oriented storage. >>So if you had a row oriented storage, you'd first have to look at every field like the temperature in, in the room and the temperature of the stove. You'd have to go across every tag value that maybe describes where the room is located or what model the stove is. And every timestamp you'd then have to pluck out that one temperature value that you want at that one time stamp and do that for every single row. So you're scanning across a ton more data and that's why Rowe Oriented doesn't provide the same efficiency as calmer and Apache Arrow is in memory calmer data, commoner data fit framework. So that's where a lot of the advantages come >>From. Okay. So you basically described like a traditional database, a row approach, but I've seen like a lot of traditional database say, okay, now we've got, we can handle colo format versus what you're talking about is really, you know, kind of native i, is it not as effective? Is the, is the foreman not as effective because it's largely a, a bolt on? Can you, can you like elucidate on that front? >>Yeah, it's, it's not as effective because you have more expensive compression and because you can't scan across the values as quickly. And so those are, that's pretty much the main reasons why, why RO row oriented storage isn't as efficient as calm, calmer oriented storage. Yeah. >>Got it. So let's talk about Arrow Data Fusion. What is data fusion? I know it's written in Rust, but what does it bring to the table here? >>Sure. So it's an extensible query execution framework and it uses Arrow as it's in memory format. So the way that it helps in influx DB IOCs is that okay, it's great if you can write unlimited amount of cardinality into influx Cbis, but if you don't have a query engine that can successfully query that data, then I don't know how much value it is for you. So Data fusion helps enable the, the query process and transformation of that data. It also has a PANDAS API so that you could take advantage of PANDAS data frames as well and all of the machine learning tools associated with Pandas. >>Okay. You're also leveraging Par K in the platform cause we heard a lot about Par K in the middle of the last decade cuz as a storage format to improve on Hadoop column stores. What are you doing with Parque and why is it important? >>Sure. So parque is the column oriented durable file format. So it's important because it'll enable bulk import, bulk export, it has compatibility with Python and Pandas, so it supports a broader ecosystem. Par K files also take very little disc disc space and they're faster to scan because again, they're column oriented in particular, I think PAR K files are like 16 times cheaper than CSV files, just as kind of a point of reference. And so that's essentially a lot of the, the benefits of par k. >>Got it. Very popular. So and he's, what exactly is influx data focusing on as a committer to these projects? What is your focus? What's the value that you're bringing to the community? >>Sure. So Influx DB first has contributed a lot of different, different things to the Apache ecosystem. For example, they contribute an implementation of Apache Arrow and go and that will support clearing with flux. Also, there has been a quite a few contributions to data fusion for things like memory optimization and supportive additional SQL features like support for timestamp, arithmetic and support for exist clauses and support for memory control. So yeah, Influx has contributed a a lot to the Apache ecosystem and continues to do so. And I think kind of the idea here is that if you can improve these upstream projects and then the long term strategy here is that the more you contribute and build those up, then the more you will perpetuate that cycle of improvement and the more we will invest in our own project as well. So it's just that kind of symbiotic relationship and appreciation of the open source community. >>Yeah. Got it. You got that virtuous cycle going, the people call the flywheel. Give us your last thoughts and kind of summarize, you know, where what, what the big takeaways are from your perspective. >>So I think the big takeaway is that influx data is doing a lot of really exciting things with Influx DB IOx and I really encourage, if you are interested in learning more about the technologies that Influx is leveraging to produce IOCs, the challenges associated with it and all of the hard work questions and you just wanna learn more, then I would encourage you to go to the monthly Tech talks and community office hours and they are on every second Wednesday of the month at 8:30 AM Pacific time. There's also a community forums and a community Slack channel look for the influx DDB unders IAC channel specifically to learn more about how to join those office hours and those monthly tech tech talks as well as ask any questions they have about iacs, what to expect and what you'd like to learn more about. I as a developer advocate, I wanna answer your questions. So if there's a particular technology or stack that you wanna dive deeper into and want more explanation about how INFLUX DB leverages it to build IOCs, I will be really excited to produce content on that topic for you. >>Yeah, that's awesome. You guys have a really rich community, collaborate with your peers, solve problems, and, and you guys super responsive, so really appreciate that. All right, thank you so much Anise for explaining all this open source stuff to the audience and why it's important to the future of data. >>Thank you. I really appreciate it. >>All right, you're very welcome. Okay, stay right there and in a moment I'll be back with Tim Yoakum, he's the director of engineering for Influx Data and we're gonna talk about how you update a SAS engine while the plane is flying at 30,000 feet. You don't wanna miss this. >>I'm really glad that we went with InfluxDB Cloud for our hosting because it has saved us a ton of time. It's helped us move faster, it's saved us money. And also InfluxDB has good support. My name's Alex Nada. I am CTO at Noble nine. Noble Nine is a platform to measure and manage service level objectives, which is a great way of measuring the reliability of your systems. You can essentially think of an slo, the product we're providing to our customers as a bunch of time series. So we need a way to store that data and the corresponding time series that are related to those. The main reason that we settled on InfluxDB as we were shopping around is that InfluxDB has a very flexible query language and as a general purpose time series database, it basically had the set of features we were looking for. >>As our platform has grown, we found InfluxDB Cloud to be a really scalable solution. We can quickly iterate on new features and functionality because Influx Cloud is entirely managed, it probably saved us at least a full additional person on our team. We also have the option of running InfluxDB Enterprise, which gives us the ability to even host off the cloud or in a private cloud if that's preferred by a customer. Influx data has been really flexible in adapting to the hosting requirements that we have. They listened to the challenges we were facing and they helped us solve it. As we've continued to grow, I'm really happy we have influx data by our side. >>Okay, we're back with Tim Yokum, who is the director of engineering at Influx Data. Tim, welcome. Good to see you. >>Good to see you. Thanks for having me. >>You're really welcome. Listen, we've been covering open source software in the cube for more than a decade, and we've kind of watched the innovation from the big data ecosystem. The cloud has been being built out on open source, mobile, social platforms, key databases, and of course influx DB and influx data has been a big consumer and contributor of open source software. So my question to you is, where have you seen the biggest bang for the buck from open source software? >>So yeah, you know, influx really, we thrive at the intersection of commercial services and open, so open source software. So OSS keeps us on the cutting edge. We benefit from OSS in delivering our own service from our core storage engine technologies to web services temping engines. Our, our team stays lean and focused because we build on proven tools. We really build on the shoulders of giants and like you've mentioned, even better, we contribute a lot back to the projects that we use as well as our own product influx db. >>You know, but I gotta ask you, Tim, because one of the challenge that that we've seen in particular, you saw this in the heyday of Hadoop, the, the innovations come so fast and furious and as a software company you gotta place bets, you gotta, you know, commit people and sometimes those bets can be risky and not pay off well, how have you managed this challenge? >>Oh, it moves fast. Yeah, that, that's a benefit though because it, the community moves so quickly that today's hot technology can be tomorrow's dinosaur. And what we, what we tend to do is, is we fail fast and fail often. We try a lot of things. You know, you look at Kubernetes for example, that ecosystem is driven by thousands of intelligent developers, engineers, builders, they're adding value every day. So we have to really keep up with that. And as the stack changes, we, we try different technologies, we try different methods, and at the end of the day, we come up with a better platform as a result of just the constant change in the environment. It is a challenge for us, but it's, it's something that we just do every day. >>So we have a survey partner down in New York City called Enterprise Technology Research etr, and they do these quarterly surveys of about 1500 CIOs, IT practitioners, and they really have a good pulse on what's happening with spending. And the data shows that containers generally, but specifically Kubernetes is one of the areas that has kind of, it's been off the charts and seen the most significant adoption and velocity particularly, you know, along with cloud. But, but really Kubernetes is just, you know, still up until the right consistently even with, you know, the macro headwinds and all, all of the stuff that we're sick of talking about. But, so what are you doing with Kubernetes in the platform? >>Yeah, it, it's really central to our ability to run the product. When we first started out, we were just on AWS and, and the way we were running was, was a little bit like containers junior. Now we're running Kubernetes everywhere at aws, Azure, Google Cloud. It allows us to have a consistent experience across three different cloud providers and we can manage that in code so our developers can focus on delivering services, not trying to learn the intricacies of Amazon, Azure, and Google and figure out how to deliver services on those three clouds with all of their differences. >>Just to follow up on that, is it, no. So I presume it's sounds like there's a PAs layer there to allow you guys to have a consistent experience across clouds and out to the edge, you know, wherever is that, is that correct? >>Yeah, so we've basically built more or less platform engineering, This is the new hot phrase, you know, it, it's, Kubernetes has made a lot of things easy for us because we've built a platform that our developers can lean on and they only have to learn one way of deploying their application, managing their application. And so that, that just gets all of the underlying infrastructure out of the way and, and lets them focus on delivering influx cloud. >>Yeah, and I know I'm taking a little bit of a tangent, but is that, that, I'll call it a PAs layer if I can use that term. Is that, are there specific attributes to Influx db or is it kind of just generally off the shelf paths? You know, are there, is, is there any purpose built capability there that, that is, is value add or is it pretty much generic? >>So we really build, we, we look at things through, with a build versus buy through a, a build versus by lens. Some things we want to leverage cloud provider services, for instance, Postgres databases for metadata, perhaps we'll get that off of our plate, let someone else run that. We're going to deploy a platform that our engineers can, can deliver on that has consistency that is, is all generated from code that we can as a, as an SRE group, as an ops team, that we can manage with very few people really, and we can stamp out clusters across multiple regions and in no time. >>So how, so sometimes you build, sometimes you buy it. How do you make those decisions and and what does that mean for the, for the platform and for customers? >>Yeah, so what we're doing is, it's like everybody else will do, we're we're looking for trade offs that make sense. You know, we really want to protect our customers data. So we look for services that support our own software with the most uptime, reliability, and durability we can get. Some things are just going to be easier to have a cloud provider take care of on our behalf. We make that transparent for our own team. And of course for customers you don't even see that, but we don't want to try to reinvent the wheel, like I had mentioned with SQL data stores for metadata, perhaps let's build on top of what of these three large cloud providers have already perfected. And we can then focus on our platform engineering and we can have our developers then focus on the influx data, software, influx, cloud software. >>So take it to the customer level, what does it mean for them? What's the value that they're gonna get out of all these innovations that we've been been talking about today and what can they expect in the future? >>So first of all, people who use the OSS product are really gonna be at home on our cloud platform. You can run it on your desktop machine, on a single server, what have you, but then you want to scale up. We have some 270 terabytes of data across, over 4 billion series keys that people have stored. So there's a proven ability to scale now in terms of the open source, open source software and how we've developed the platform. You're getting highly available high cardinality time series platform. We manage it and, and really as, as I mentioned earlier, we can keep up with the state of the art. We keep reinventing, we keep deploying things in real time. We deploy to our platform every day repeatedly all the time. And it's that continuous deployment that allows us to continue testing things in flight, rolling things out that change new features, better ways of doing deployments, safer ways of doing deployments. >>All of that happens behind the scenes. And like we had mentioned earlier, Kubernetes, I mean that, that allows us to get that done. We couldn't do it without having that platform as a, as a base layer for us to then put our software on. So we, we iterate quickly. When you're on the, the Influx cloud platform, you really are able to, to take advantage of new features immediately. We roll things out every day and as those things go into production, you have, you have the ability to, to use them. And so in the end we want you to focus on getting actual insights from your data instead of running infrastructure, you know, let, let us do that for you. So, >>And that makes sense, but so is the, is the, are the innovations that we're talking about in the evolution of Influx db, do, do you see that as sort of a natural evolution for existing customers? I, is it, I'm sure the answer is both, but is it opening up new territory for customers? Can you add some color to that? >>Yeah, it really is it, it's a little bit of both. Any engineer will say, well, it depends. So cloud native technologies are, are really the hot thing. Iot, industrial iot especially, people want to just shove tons of data out there and be able to do queries immediately and they don't wanna manage infrastructure. What we've started to see are people that use the cloud service as their, their data store backbone and then they use edge computing with R OSS product to ingest data from say, multiple production lines and downsample that data, send the rest of that data off influx cloud where the heavy processing takes place. So really us being in all the different clouds and iterating on that and being in all sorts of different regions allows for people to really get out of the, the business of man trying to manage that big data, have us take care of that. And of course as we change the platform end users benefit from that immediately. And, >>And so obviously taking away a lot of the heavy lifting for the infrastructure, would you say the same thing about security, especially as you go out to IOT and the Edge? How should we be thinking about the value that you bring from a security perspective? >>Yeah, we take, we take security super seriously. It, it's built into our dna. We do a lot of work to ensure that our platform is secure, that the data we store is, is kept private. It's of course always a concern. You see in the news all the time, companies being compromised, you know, that's something that you can have an entire team working on, which we do to make sure that the data that you have, whether it's in transit, whether it's at rest, is always kept secure, is only viewable by you. You know, you look at things like software, bill of materials, if you're running this yourself, you have to go vet all sorts of different pieces of software. And we do that, you know, as we use new tools. That's something that, that's just part of our jobs to make sure that the platform that we're running it has, has fully vetted software and, and with open source especially, that's a lot of work. And so it's, it's definitely new territory. Supply chain attacks are, are definitely happening at a higher clip than they used to, but that is, that is really just part of a day in the, the life for folks like us that are, are building platforms. >>Yeah, and that's key. I mean especially when you start getting into the, the, you know, we talk about IOT and the operations technologies, the engineers running the, that infrastructure, you know, historically, as you know, Tim, they, they would air gap everything. That's how they kept it safe. But that's not feasible anymore. Everything's >>That >>Connected now, right? And so you've gotta have a partner that is again, take away that heavy lifting to r and d so you can focus on some of the other activities. Right. Give us the, the last word and the, the key takeaways from your perspective. >>Well, you know, from my perspective I see it as, as a a two lane approach with, with influx, with Anytime series data, you know, you've got a lot of stuff that you're gonna run on-prem, what you had mentioned, air gaping. Sure there's plenty of need for that, but at the end of the day, people that don't want to run big data centers, people that want torus their data to, to a company that's, that's got a full platform set up for them that they can build on, send that data over to the cloud, the cloud is not going away. I think more hybrid approach is, is where the future lives and that's what we're prepared for. >>Tim, really appreciate you coming to the program. Great stuff. Good to see you. >>Thanks very much. Appreciate it. >>Okay, in a moment I'll be back to wrap up. Today's session, you're watching The Cube. >>Are you looking for some help getting started with InfluxDB Telegraph or Flux Check >>Out Influx DB University >>Where you can find our entire catalog of free training that will help you make the most of your time series data >>Get >>Started for free@influxdbu.com. >>We'll see you in class. >>Okay, so we heard today from three experts on time series and data, how the Influx DB platform is evolving to support new ways of analyzing large data sets very efficiently and effectively in real time. And we learned that key open source components like Apache Arrow and the Rust Programming environment Data fusion par K are being leveraged to support realtime data analytics at scale. We also learned about the contributions in importance of open source software and how the Influx DB community is evolving the platform with minimal disruption to support new workloads, new use cases, and the future of realtime data analytics. Now remember these sessions, they're all available on demand. You can go to the cube.net to find those. Don't forget to check out silicon angle.com for all the news related to things enterprise and emerging tech. And you should also check out influx data.com. There you can learn about the company's products. You'll find developer resources like free courses. You could join the developer community and work with your peers to learn and solve problems. And there are plenty of other resources around use cases and customer stories on the website. This is Dave Valante. Thank you for watching Evolving Influx DB into the smart data platform, made possible by influx data and brought to you by the Cube, your leader in enterprise and emerging tech coverage.

>>Good evening, brilliant humans. My name is Savannah Peterson and very delighted to be streaming to you. Live from the Cube Studios here in Motor City, Michigan. I've got John Furrier on my left. John, this is our last interview of the day. Energy just seems to keep oozing. How >>You doing? Take two, Three days of coverage, the queue love segments. This one's great cuz we have a practitioner who's implementing all the hard core talks to be awesome. Can't wait to get into it. >>Yeah, I'm very excited for this one. If it's not very clear, we are a community focused community is a huge theme here at the show at Cape Con. And our next guests are actually a provider and a customer. Turning it over to you. Lisa and Jake, welcome to the show. >>Thank you so much for having us. >>It's great to be here. It is our pleasure. Lisa, you're with Cockroach. Just in case the audience isn't familiar, give us a quick little sound bite. >>We're a distributed sequel database. Highly scalable, reliable. The database you can't kill, right? We will survive the apocalypse. So very resilient. Our customers, mostly retail, FinTech game meet online gambling. They, they, they need that resiliency, they need that scalability. So the indestructible database is the elevator pitch >>And the success has been very well documented. Valuation obviously is a scorp guard, but huge customers. We were at the Escape 19. Just for the record, the first ever multi-cloud conference hasn't come back baby. Love it. It'll come back soon. >>Yeah, well we did a similar version of it just a month ago and I was, that was before Cockroach. I was a different company there talking a lot about multi-cloud. So, but I'm, I've been a car a couple of years now and I run community, I run developer relations. I'm still also a CNCF ambassador, so I lead community as well. I still run a really large user group in the San Francisco Bay area. So we've just >>Been in >>Community, take through the use case. Jake's story set us up. >>Well I would like Jake to take him through the use case and Cockroach is a part of it, but what they've built is amazing. And also Jake's history is amazing. So you can start Jake, >>Wherever you take >>Your Yeah, sure. I'm Jake, I'm CEO and co-founder of Offset. Oted is the commercial entity behind Spice Dvy and Spice Dvy is a permission service. Cool. So a permission service is something that lets developers and let's platform teams really unlock the full potential of their applications. So a lot of people get stuck on My R back isn't flexible enough. How do I do these fine grain things? How do I do these complex sharing workflows that my product manager thinks is so important? And so our service enables those platform teams and developers to do those kinds of things. >>What's your, what's your infrastructure? What's your setup look like? What, how are you guys looking like on the back end? >>Sure. Yeah. So we're obviously built on top of Kubernetes as well. One of the reasons that we're here. So we use Kubernetes, we use Kubernetes operators to orchestrate everything. And then we use, use Cockroach TV as our production data store, our production backend data store. >>So I'm curious, cause I love when these little matchmakers come together. You said you've now been presenting on a little bit of a road show, which is very exciting. Lisa, how are you and the team surfacing stories like Jakes, >>Well, I mean any, any place we can obviously all the social medias, all the blogs, How >>Are you finding it though? >>How, how did you Oh, like from our customers? Yeah, we have an open source version so people start to use us a long time before we even sometimes know about them. And then they'll come to us and they'll be like, I love Cockroach, and like, tell me about it. Like, tell me what you build and if it's interesting, you know, we'll we'll try to give it some light. And it's always interesting to me what people do with it because it's an interesting technology. I like what they've done with it. I mean the, the fact that it's globally distributed, right? That was like a really important thing to you. Totally. >>Yeah. We're also long term fans of Cockroach, so we actually all work together out of Workbench, which was a co-working space and investor in New York City. So yeah, we go way back. We knew the founders. I, I'm constantly saying like if I could have invested early in cockroach, that would've been the easiest check I could have ever signed. >>Yeah, that's awesome. And then we've been following that too and you guys are now using them, but folks that are out there looking to have the, the same challenges, what are the big challenges on selecting the database? I mean, as you know, the history of Cockroach and you're originating the story, folks out there might not know and they're also gonna choose a database. What's the, what's the big challenge that they can solve that that kind of comes together? What, what would you describe that? >>Sure. So we're, as I said, we're a permission service and per the data that you store in a permission service is incredibly sensitive. You need it to be around, right? You need it to be available. If the permission service goes down, almost everything else goes down because it's all calling into the permission service. Is this user allowed to do this? Are they allowed to do that? And if we can't answer those questions, then our customer is down, right? So when we're looking at a database, we're looking for reliability, we're looking for durability, disaster recovery, and then permission services are one of the only services that you usually don't shard geographically. So if you look at like AWS's iam, that's a global service, even though the individual things that they run are actually sharded by region. So we also needed a globally distributed database with all of those other properties. So that's what led us >>To, this is a huge topic. So man, we've been talking about all week the cloud is essentially distributed database at this point and it's distributed system. So distributed database is a hot topic, totally not really well reported. A lot of people talking about it, but how would you describe this distributed trend that's going on? What are the key reasons that they're driving it? What's making this more important than ever in your mind, in your opinion? >>I mean, for our use case, it was just a hard requirement, right? We had to be able to have this global service. But I think just for general use cases, a distributed database, distributed database has that like shared nothing architecture that allows you to kind of keep it running and horizontally scale it. And as your requirements and as your applications needs change, you can just keep adding on capacity and keep adding on reliability and availability. >>I'd love to get both of your opinion. You've been talking about the, the, the, the phases of customers, the advanced got Kubernetes going crazy distributed, super alpha geek. Then you got the, the people who are building now, then you got the lagers who are coming online. Where do you guys see the market now in terms of, I know the Alphas are all building all the great stuff and you guys had great success with all the top logos and they're all doing hardcore stuff. As the mainstream enterprise comes in, where's their psychology, what's on their mind? What's, you share any insight into your perspective on that? Because we're seeing a lot more of it folks becoming like real cloud players. >>Yeah, I feel like in mainstream enterprise hasn't been lagging as much as people think. You know, certainly there's been pockets in big enterprises that have been looking at this and as distributed sequel, it gives you that scalability that it's absolutely essential for big enterprises. But also it gives you the, the multi-region, you know, the, you have to be globally distributed. And for us, for enterprises, you know, you need your data near where the users are. I know this is hugely important to you as well. So you have to be able to have a multi-region functionality and that's one thing that distributed SQL lets you build and that what we built into our product. And I know that's one of the things you like too. >>Yeah, well we're a brand new product. I mean we only founded the company two years ago, but we're actually getting inbound interest from big enterprises because we solve the kinds of challenges that they have and whether, I mean, most of them already do have a cockroach footprint, but whether they did or didn't, once they need to bring in our product, they're going to be adopting cockroach transitively anyway. >>So, So you're built on top of Cockroach, right? And Spice dv, is that open source or? >>It >>Is, yep. Okay. And explain the role of open source and your business model. Can you take a minute to talk about the relevance of that? >>Yeah, open source is key. My background is, before this I was at Red Hat. Before that we were at CoreOS, so CoreOS acquisition and before that, >>One of the best acquisitions that ever happened for the value. That was a great, great team. Yeah, >>We, we, we had fun and before that we built Qua. So my co-founders and I, we built Quay, which is a, a first private docker registry. So CoreOS and, and all of those things are all open source or deeply open source. So it's just in our dna. We also see it as part of our go-to market motion. So if you are a database, a lot of people won't even consider what you're doing without being open source. Cuz they say, I don't want to take a, I don't want to, I don't want to end up in an Oracle situation >>Again. Yeah, Oracle meaning they go, you get you locked in, get you in a headlock, Increase prices. >>Yeah. Oh yeah, >>Can, can >>I got triggered. >>You need to talk about your PTSD there >>Or what. >>I mean we have 20,000 stars on GitHub because we've been open and transparent from the beginning. >>Yeah. And it >>Well, and both of your projects were started based on Google Papers, >>Right? >>That is true. Yep. And that's actually, so we're based off of the Google Zans of our paper. And as you know, Cockroach is based off of the Google Span paper and in the the Zanzibar paper, they have this globally distributed database that they're built on top of. And so when I said we're gonna go and we're gonna make a company around the Zabar paper, people would go, Well, what are you gonna do for Span? And I was like, Easy cockroach, they've got us covered. >>Yeah, I know the guys and my friends. Yeah. So the question is why didn't you get into the first round of Cockroach? She said don't answer that. >>The question he did answer though was one of those age old arguments in our community about pronunciation. We used to argue about Quay, I always called it Key of course. And the co-founder obviously knows how it's pronounced, you know, it's the et cd argument, it's the co cuddl versus the control versus coo, CTL Quay from the co-founder. That is end of argument. You heard it here first >>And we're keeping it going with Osted. So awesome. A lot of people will say Zeed or, you know, so we, we just like to have a little ambiguity >>In the, you gotta have some semantic arguments, arm wrestling here. I mean, it keeps, it keeps everyone entertained, especially on the over the weekend. What's, what's next? You got obviously Kubernetes in there. Can you explain the relationship between Kubernetes, how you're handling Spice dv? What, what does the Kubernetes piece fit in and where, where is that going to be going? >>Yeah, great question. Our flagship product right now is a dedicated, and in a dedicated, what we're doing is we're spinning up a single tenant Kubernetes cluster. We're installing all of our operator suite, and then we're installing the application and running it in a single tenant fashion for our customers in the same region, in the same data center where they're running their applications to minimize latency. Because of this, as an authorization service, latency gets passed on directly to the end user. So everybody's trying to squeeze the latency down as far as they can. And our strategy is to just run these single tenant stacks for people with the minimal latency that we can and give them a VPC dedicated link very similar to what Cockroach does in their dedicated >>Product. And the distributed architecture makes that possible because it's lighter way, it's not as heavy. Is that one of the reasons? >>Yep. And Kubernetes really gives us sort of like a, a level playing field where we can say, we're going going to take the provider, the cloud providers Kubernetes offering, normalize it, lay down our operators, and then use that as the base for delivering >>Our application. You know, Jake, you made me think of something I wanted to bring up with other guests, but now since you're here, you're an expert, I wanna bring that up, but talk about Super Cloud. We, we coined that term, but it's kind of multi-cloud, is that having workloads on multiple clouds is hard. I mean there are, they are, there are workloads on, on clouds, but the complexity of one clouds, let's take aws, they got availability zones, they got regions, you got now data issues in each one being global, not that easy on one cloud, nevermind all clouds. Can you share your thoughts on how you see that progression? Because when you start getting, as its distributed database, a lot of good things might come up that could fit into solving the complexity of global workloads. Could you share your thoughts on or scoping that problem space of, of geography? Yeah, because you mentioned latency, like that's huge. What are some of the other challenges that other people have with mobile? >>Yeah, absolutely. When you have a service like ours where the data is small, but very critical, you can get a vendor like Cockroach to step in and to fill that gap and to give you that globally distributed database that you can call into and retrieve the data. I think the trickier issues come up when you have larger data, you have huge binary blobs. So back when we were doing Quay, we wanted to be a global service as well, but we had, you know, terabytes, petabytes of data that we were like, how do we get this replicated everywhere and not go broke? Yeah. So I think those are kind of the interesting issues moving forward is what do you do with like those huge data lakes, the huge amount of data, but for the, the smaller bits, like the things that we can keep in a relational database. Yeah, we're, we're happy that that's quickly becoming a solved >>Problem. And by the way, that that data problem also is compounded when the architecture goes to the edge. >>Totally. >>I mean this is a big issue. >>Exactly. Yeah. Edge is something that we're thinking a lot about too. Yeah, we're lucky that right now the applications that are consuming us are in a data center already. But as they start to move to the edge, we're going to have to move to the edge with them. And it's a story that we're gonna have to figure out. >>All right, so you're a customer cockroach, what's the testimonial if I put you on the spot, say, hey, what's it like working with these guys? You know, what, what's the, what's the, you know, the founders, so you know, you give a good description, little biased, but we'll, we'll we'll hold you on it. >>Yeah. Working with Cockroach has been great. We've had a couple things that we've run into along the way and we've gotten great support from our account managers. They've brought in the right technical expertise when we need it. Cuz what we're doing with Cockroach is not you, you couldn't do it on Postgres, right? So it's not just a simple rip and replace for us, we're using all of the features of Cockroach, right? We're doing as of system time queries, we're doing global replication. We're, you know, we're, we're consuming it all. And so we do need help from them sometimes and they've been great. Yeah. >>And that's natural as they grow their service. I mean the world's changing. >>Well I think one of the important points that you mentioned with multi-cloud, we want you to have the choice. You know, you can run it in in clouds, you can run it hybrid, you can run it OnPrem, you can do whatever you want and it's just, it's one application that you can run in these different data centers. And so really it's up to you how do you want to build your infrastructure? >>And one of the things we've been talking about, the super cloud concept that we've been issue getting a lot of contrary, but, but people are leaning into it is that it's the refactoring and taking advantage of the services. Like what you mentioned about cockroach. People are doing that now on cloud going the lift and shift market kind of had it time now it's like hey, I can start taking advantage of these higher level services or capability of someone else's stack and refactoring it. So I think that's a dynamic that I'm seeing a lot more of. And it sounds like it's working out great in this situation. >>I just came from a talk and I asked them, you know, what don't you wanna put in the cloud and what don't you wanna run in Kubernetes or on containers and good Yeah. And the customers that I was on stage with, one of the guys made a joke and he said I would put my dog in a container room. I could, he was like in the category, which is his right, which he is in the category of like, I'll put everything in containers and these are, you know, including like mis critical apps, heritage apps, since they don't wanna see legacy anymore. Heritage apps, these are huge enterprises and they wanna put everything in the cloud. Everything >>You so want your dog that gets stuck on the airplane when it's on the tarmac. >>Oh >>God, that's, she was the, don't take that analogy. Literally don't think about that. Well that's, >>That's let's not containerize. >>There's always supply chain concern. >>It. So I mean going macro and especially given where we are cncf, it's all about open source. Do y'all think that open source builds a better future? >>Yeah and a better past. I mean this is, so much of this software is founded on open source. I, we wouldn't be here really. I've been in open source community for many, many years so I wouldn't say I'm biased. I would say this is how we build software. I came from like in a high school we're all like, oh let's build a really cool application. Oh you know what? I built this cuz I needed it, but maybe somebody else needs it too. And you put it out there and that is the ethos of Silicon Valley, right? That's where we grew up. So I've always had that mindset, you know, and social coding and why I have three people, right? Working on the same thing when one person you could share it's so inefficient. All of that. Yeah. So I think it's great that people work on what they're really good at. You know, we all, now you need some standardization, you need some kind of control around this whole thing. Sometimes some foundations to, you know, herd the cats. Yeah. But it's, it's great. Which is why I'm a c CF ambassador and I spend a lot of time, you know, in my free time talking about open source. Yeah, yeah. >>It's clear how passionate you are about it. Jake, >>This is my second company that we founded now and I don't think either of them could have existed without the base of open source, right? Like when you look at I have this cool idea for an app or a company and I want to go try it out, the last thing I want to do is go and negotiate with a vendor to get like the core data component. Yeah. To even be able to get to the >>Prototypes. NK too, by the way. Yeah. >>Hey >>Nk >>Or hire, you know, a bunch of PhDs to go and build that core component for me. So yeah, I mean nobody can argue that >>It truly is, I gotta say a best time if you're a developer right now, it's awesome to be a developer right now. It's only gonna get better. As we were riff from the last session about productivity, we believe that if you follow the digital transformation to its conclusion, developers and it aren't a department serving the business, they are the business. And that means they're running the show, which means that now their entire workflow is gonna change. It's gonna be have to be leveraging services partnering. So yeah, open source just fills that. So the more code coming up, it's just no doubt in our mind that that's go, that's happening and will accelerate. So yeah, >>You know, no one company is gonna be able to compete with a community. 50,000 users contributing versus you riding it yourself in your garage with >>Your dogs. Well it's people driven too. It's humans not container. It's humans working together. And here you'll see, I won't say horse training, that's a bad term, but like as projects start to get traction, hey, why don't we come together as, as the world starts to settle and the projects have traction, you start to see visibility into use cases, functionality. Some projects might not be, they have to kind of see more kind >>Of, not every feature is gonna be development. Oh. So I mean, you know, this is why you connect with truly brilliant people who can architect and distribute sequel database. Like who thought of that? It's amazing. It's as, as our friend >>You say, Well let me ask you a question before we wrap up, both by time, what is the secret of Kubernetes success? What made Kubernetes specifically successful? Was it timing? Was it the, the unambitious nature of it, the unification of it? Was it, what was the reason why is Kubernetes successful, right? And why nothing else? >>Well, you know what I'm gonna say? So I'm gonna let Dave >>First don't Jake, you go first. >>Oh boy. If we look at what was happening when Kubernetes first came out, it was, Mesosphere was kind of like the, the big player in the space. I think Kubernetes really, it had the backing from the right companies. It had the, you know, it had the credibility, it was sort of loosely based on Borg, but with the story of like, we've fixed everything that was broken in Borg. Yeah. And it's better now. Yeah. So I think it was just kind and, and obviously people were looking for a solution to this problem as they were going through their containerization journey. And I, yeah, I think it was just right >>Place, the timing consensus of hey, if we just let this happen, something good might come together for everybody. That's the way I felt. I >>Think it was right place, right time, right solution. And then it just kind of exploded when we were at Cores. Alex Povi, our ceo, he heard about Kubernetes and he was like, you know, we, we had a thing called Fleet D or we had a tool called Fleet. And he's like, Nope, we're all in on Kubernetes now. And that was an amazing Yeah, >>I remember that interview. >>I, amazing decision. >>Yeah, >>It's clear we can feel the shift. It's something that's come up a lot this week is is the commitment. Everybody's all in. People are ready for their transformation and Kubernetes is definitely gonna be the orchestrator that we're >>Leveraging. Yeah. And it's an amazing community. But it was, we got lucky that the, the foundational technology, I mean, you know, coming out of Google based on Go conferences, based on Go, it's no to coincidence that this sort of nature of, you know, pods horizontally, scalable, it's all fits together. I does make sense. Yeah. I mean, no offense to Python and some of the other technologies that were built in other languages, but Go is an awesome language. It's so, so innovative. Innovative things you could do with it. >>Awesome. Oh definitely. Jake, I'm very curious since we learned on the way and you are a Detroit native? >>I am. Yep. I grew up in the in Warren, which is just a suburb right outside of Detroit. >>So what does it mean to you as a Michigan born bloke to be here, see your entire community invade? >>It is, I grew up coming to the Detroit Auto Show in this very room >>That brought me to Detroit the first time. Love n a I a s. Been there with our friends at Ford just behind us. >>And it's just so interesting to me to see the accumulation, the accumulation of tech coming to Detroit cuz it's really not something that historically has been a huge presence. And I just love it. I love to see the activity out on the streets. I love to see all the restaurants and coffee shops full of people. Just, I might tear up. >>Well, I was wondering if it would give you a little bit of that hometown pride and also the joy of bringing your community together. I mean, this is merging your two probably most core communities. Yeah, >>Yeah. Your >>Youth and your, and your career. It doesn't get more personal than that really. Right. >>It's just been, it's been really exciting to see the energy. >>Well thanks for going on the queue. Thanks for sharing. Appreciate it. Thanks >>For having us. Yeah, thank you both so much. Lisa, you were a joy of ball of energy right when you walked up. Jake, what a compelling story. Really appreciate you sharing it with us. John, thanks for the banter and the fabulous questions. I'm >>Glad I could help out. >>Yeah, you do. A lot more than help out sweetheart. And to all of you watching the Cube today, thank you so much for joining us live from Detroit, the Cube Studios. My name is Savannah Peterson and we'll see you for our event wrap up next.

>>Hello, and welcome to the cubes presentation of the AWS startup showcase. This is season two, episode four, the ongoing series covering exciting startups from the AWS ecosystem to talk about cyber security. I'm your host, John feer. And today we're excited to join by a Mediatel Walker, CEO of Quin security and sub IER, vice president of product management of sequence security gentlemen, thanks for joining us today on this showcase. >>Thank you, John PRAs. >>So the title of this session is continuous API protection life cycle to discover, detect, and defend security. APIs are part of it. They're hardened, everyone's using them, but they're they're target for malicious behavior. This is the focus of this segment. You guys are in the leading edge of this. What are the biggest challenges for organizations right now in assessing their security risks? Because you're seeing APIs all over the place in the news, just even this week, Twitter had a whistleblower come out from the security group, talking about their security plans, misleading the FTC on the bots and some of the malicious behavior inside the API interface of Twitter. This is really a mainstream Washington post is reporting on it. New York times, all the global outlets are talking about this story. This is the risk. I mean, yeah, this is what you guys do protect against this. >>Yeah, this is absolutely top of mind for a lot of security folks today. So obviously in the media and the type of attack that that is being discussed with this whistleblower coming out is called reputation bombing. This is not new. This has been going on since I would say at least eight to 10 years where the, the bad actors are using bots or automation and ultimately using APIs on these large social media platforms, whether it's Facebook, whether it's Twitter or some other social media platform and messing with the reputation system of those large platforms. And what I mean by that is they will do fake likes, fake commenting, fake retweeting in the case of Twitter. And what that means is that things that are, should not be very popular, all of a sudden become popular. That that way they're able to influence things like elections, shopping habits, personnel. >>We, we work with similar profile companies and we see this all the time. We, we mostly work on some of the secondary platforms like dating and other sort of social media platforms around music sharing and things like video sharing. And we see this all the time. These, these bots are bad. Actors are using bots, but ultimately it's an API problem. It's not just a bot problem. And that's what we've been trying to sort of preach to the world, which is your bot problem is subset of your API security challenges that you deal as an organization. >>You know, IMIA, we talked about this in the past on a previous conversation, but this really is front and center mainstream for the whole world to see around the challenges. All companies face, every CSO, every CIO, every board member organizations out there looking at this security posture that spans not just information technology, but physical and now social engineering. You have all kinds of new payloads of malicious behavior that are being compromised through, through things like APIs. This is not just about CSO, chief information security officer. This is chief security officer issues. What's your reaction >>Very much so I think the, this is a security problem, but it's also a reputation problem. In some cases, it's a data governance problem. We work with several companies which have very restrictive data governance and data regulations or data residency regulations there to conform to those regulations. And they have to look at that. It's not just a CSO problem anymore. In case of the, the news of the day to day, this is a platform problem. This goes all the way to the, that time CTO of Twitter. And now the CEO of Twitter, who was in charge of dealing with these problems. We see as just to give you an example, we, we work, we work with a similar sort of social media platform that allows Oop based login to their platform that is using tokens. You can sort of sign in with Facebook, sign in with Twitter, sign in with Google. These are API keys that are generated and trusted by these social media platforms. When we saw that Facebook leaked about 50 million of these login credentials or API keys, this was about three, four years ago. I wrote a blog about it. We saw a huge spike in those API keys being used to log to other social media platforms. So although one social platform might be taking care of its, you know, API or what problem, if something else gets reached somewhere else, it has a cascading impact on a variety of platforms. >>You know, that's a really interesting dynamic. And if you think about just the token piece that you mentioned, that's kind of under the coverage, that's a technology challenge, but also you get in the business logic. So let's go back and, and unpack that, okay, they discontinue the tokens. Now they're being reused here. In the case of Twitter, I was talking to an executive here in Silicon valley and they said, yeah, it's a cautionary tale, for sure. Although Twitter's a unique situation, but they abstract out the business value and say, Hey, they had an M and a deal on the table. And so if someone wants to unwind that deal, all I gotta say is, Hey, there's a bot problem. And now you have essentially new kinds of risk in the business have nothing to do with some sign the technology, okay. They got a security breach, but here with Twitter, you have an, an, an M and a deal, an acquisition that's being contested because of the, the APIs. So, so if you're in business, you gotta think to yourself, what am I risking with my API? So every organization should be assessing their security risks, tied to their APIs. This is a huge awakening for them. Where should they start? And that's the, that's the core question. Okay. You got my attention risks with the API. What do I do? >>So when I talked to you in my previous interview, the start is basically knowing what to, in most cases, you see these that are hitting the wire much. Every now there is a major in cases you'll find these APIs are targeted, that are not poorly protected. They're absolutely just not protected at all, which means the security team or any sort of team that is responsible for protecting these APIs are just completely unaware of these APIs being there in the first place. And this is where we talk about the shadow it or shadow API problem. Large enterprises have teams that are geo distributed, and this problem is escalated after the pandemic even more because now you have teams that are completely distributed. They do M and a. So they acquire new companies and have no visibility into their API or security practices. And so there are a lot of driving factors why these APIs are just not protected and, and just unknown even more to the security team. So the first step has to be discover your API attack surface, and then prioritize which APIs you wanna target in terms of runtime protection. >>Yeah. I wanna dig into that API kind of attack surface area management, runtime monitoring capability in a second, but so I wanna get you in here too, because we're talking about APIs, we're talking about attacks. What does an API attack look like? >>Yeah, that's a very good question, John, there are really two different forms of attacks of APIs, one type of attack, exploits, APIs that have known vulnerabilities or some form of vulnerabilities. For instance, APIs that may use a weak form of authentication or are really built with no authentication at all, or have some sort of vulnerability that makes them very good targets for an attacker to target. And the second form of attack is a more subtle one. It's called business logic abuse. It's, it's utilizing APIs in completely legitimate manner manners, but exploiting those APIs to exfiltrate information or key sensitive information that was probably not thought through by the developer or the designers or those APIs. And really when we do API protection, we really need to be able to handle both of those scenarios, protect against abuse of APIs, such as broken authentication, or broken object level authorization APIs with that problem, as well as protecting APIs from business logic abuse. And that's really how we, you know, differentiate against other vendors in this >>Market. So just what are the, those key differentiated ways to identify the, in the malicious intents with APIs? Can you, can you just summarize that real quick, the three ways? >>Sure. Yeah, absolutely. There are three key ways that we differentiate against our competition. One is in the, we have built out a, in the ability to actually detect such traffic. We have built out a very sophisticated threat intelligence network built over the entire lifetime of the company where we have very well curated information about malicious infrastructures, malicious operators around the world, including not just it address ranges, but also which infrastructures do they operate on and stuff like that, which actually helps a lot in, in many environments in especially B2C environments, that alone accounts for a lot of efficacy for us in detecting our weed out bad traffic. The second aspect is in analyzing the request that are coming in the API traffic that is coming in and from the request itself, being able to tell if there is credential abuse going on or credential stuffing going on or known patterns that the traffic is exhibiting, that looks like it is clearly trying to attack the attack, the APM. >>And the third one is, is really more sophisticated as they go farther and farther. It gets more sophisticated where sequence actually has a lot of machine learning models built in which actually profile the traffic that is coming in and separate. So the legitimate or learns the legitimate traffic from the anomalous or suspicious traffic. So as the traffic, as the API requests are coming in, it automatically can tell that this traffic does not look like legitimate traffic does not look like the traffic that this API typically gets and automatically uses that to figure out, okay, where is this traffic coming from? And automatically takes action to prevent that attack? >>You know, it's interesting APIs have been part of the goodness of cloud and cloud scale. And it reminds me of the old Andy Grove quote, founder of, in one of the founders of Intel, you know, let chaos, let, let the chaos happen, then reign it in it's APIs. You know, a lot of people have been creating them and you've got a lot of different stakeholders involved in creating them. And so now securing them and now manage them. So a lot of creation now you're starting to secure them and now you gotta manage 'em. This all is now big focus. As you pointed out, what are some of the dynamics that customers who have to deal with on the product side and, and organization, let, let chaos rain, and then rain in the chaos, as, as the saying goes, what, what do companies do? >>Yeah. Typically companies start off with like, like a mayor talked about earlier. Discovery is really the key thing to start with, like figuring out what your API attack surfaces and really getting your arms around that problem. And typically we are finding customers start that off from the security organization, the CSO organization to really go after that problem. And in some cases, in some customers, we even find like dedicated centers of excellence that are created for API security, which go after that problem to be able to get their arms around the whole API attack surface and the API protection problem statement. So that's where usually that problem starts to get addressed. >>I mean, organizations and your customers have to stop the attacks. A lot of different techniques, you know, run time. You mentioned that earlier, the surface area monitoring, what's the choice. What's the, where are, where are, where is everybody? Is everyone in the, in the boiling water, like the frog and boiling water or they do, they know it's happening? Like what did they do? What's their opportunity to get in >>Position? Yeah. So I, I think let's take a step back a little bit, right? What has happened is if you draw the cloud security market, if you will, right. Which is the journey to the cloud, the security of these applications or APIs at a container level, in terms of vulnerabilities and, and other things that market grew with the journey to the cloud, pretty much locked in lockstep. What has happened in the API side is the API space has kind of lacked behind the growth and explosion in the API space. So what that means is APIs are getting published way faster than the security teams are able to sort of control and secure them. APIs are getting published in environments that the security completely unaware of. We talked about in the past about the parameter, the parameter, as we know, it doesn't exist anymore. It used to be the case that you hit a CDN, you terminate your SSL, you stop your layer three and four DDoS. >>And then you go into the application and do the business logic. That parameter is just gone because it's now could be living in multi-cloud environment. It could be living in the on-prem environment, which is PubNet is friendly. And so security teams that are used to protecting apps, using a perimeter defense plus changes, it's gone. You need to figure out where your perimeter is. And therefore we sort of recommend an approach, which is have a uniform view across all your APIs, wherever they could be distributed and have a single point of control across those with a solution like sequence. And there are others also in this space, which is giving you that uniform view, which is first giving you that, you know, outside and looking view of what APIs to protect. And then let's, you sort of take the journey of securing the API life cycle. >>So I would say that every company now hear me out on this indulges me for a second. Every company in the world will be non perimeter based, except for maybe 5% because of maybe unique reason, proprietary lockdown, information, whatever. But for most, most companies, everyone will be in the cloud or some cloud native, non perimeter based security posture. So the question is, how does your platform fit into that trajectory? And specifically, why are you guys in the position in your mind to help customers solve this API problem? Because again, APIs have been the greatest thing about the cloud, right? Yeah. So the goodness is there because of APS. Now you gotta reign it in reign in the chaos. Yeah. What, what about your platform share? What is it, why is it win? Why should customers care about this? >>Absolutely. So if you think about it, you're right, the parameter doesn't exist. People have APIs deployed in multiple environments, multicloud hybrid, you name it sequence is uniquely positioned in a way that we can work with your environment. No matter what that environment is. We're the only player in this space that can protect your APIs purely as a SA solution or purely as an on-prem deployment. And that could be a SaaS platform. It doesn't need to be RackN, but we also support that and we could be a hybrid deployment. We have some deployments which are on your prem and the rest of this solution is in our SA. If you think about it, customers have secured their APIs with sequence with 15 minutes, you know, going live from zero to life and getting that protection instantaneously. We have customers that are processing a billion API calls per day, across variety of different cloud environments in sort of six different brands. And so that scale, that flexibility of where we can plug into your infrastructure or be completely off of your infrastructure is something unique to sequence that we offer that nobody else is offering >>Today. Okay. So I'll be, I'll be a naysayer. Yeah, look, it, we are perfectly coded APIs. We are the best in the business. We're locked down. Our APIs are as tight as a drum. Why do I need you? >>So that goes back to who's answer. Of course, >>Everyone's say that that's, that's great, but that's my argument. >>There are two types of API attacks. One is a tactic problem, which is exploiting a vulnerability in an API, right? So what you're saying is my APIs are secure. It does not have any vulnerability I've taken care of all vulnerabilities. The second type of attack that targets APIs is the business logic. Use this stuff in the news this week, which is the whistleblower problem, which is, if you think APIs that Twitter is publishing for users are perfectly secure. They are taking care of all the vulnerabilities and patching them when they find new ones. But it's the business logic of, you know, REWE liking or commenting that the bots are targeting, which they have no against. Right. And then none of the other social networks too. Yeah. So there are many examples. Uber wrote a program to impersonate users in different geo locations to find lifts, pricing, and driver information and passenger information, completely legitimate use of APIs for illegitimate, illegitimate purpose using bots. So you don't need bots by the way, don't, don't make this about bot versus not. Yeah. You can use APIs sort of for the, the purpose that they're not designed for sort of exploiting their business logic, either using a human interacting, a human farm, interacting with those APIs or a bot form targeting those APIs, I think. But that's the problem when you have, even when you've secured all your problem, all your APIs, you still have to worry about these of challenges. >>I think that's the big one. I think the business logic one, certainly the Twitter highlights that the Uber example is a good one. That is basically almost the, the backlash of having a simplistic API, which people design to. Right. Yeah. You know, as you point out, Twitter is very simple API, hardened, very strong security, but they're using it to maliciously manipulate what's inside. So in a way that perimeter's dead too. Right. So how do you stop that business logic? What's the, what's the solution what's the customer do about that? Because their goal is to create simple, scalable APIs. >>Yeah. I'll, I'll give you a little bit, and then I think Subaru should maybe go into a little bit of the depth of the problem, but what I think that the answer lies in what Subaru spoke earlier, which is our ML. AI is, is good at profiling plus split between the API users, are these legitimate users, humans versus bots. That's the first split we do. The split second split we do is even when these, these are classified users as bots, we will say there are some good bots that are necessary for the business and bad bots. So we are able to split this across three types of users, legitimate humans, good bots and bad bots. And just to give you an example of good bots is there are in the financial work, there are aggregators that are scraping your data and aggregating for end users to consume, right? Your, your, and other type of financial aggregators FinTech companies like MX. These are good bots and you wanna allow them to, you know, use your APIs, whereas you wanna stop the bad bots from using your APIs super, if you wanna add so, >>So good bots versus bad bots, that's the focus. Go ahead. Weigh in, weigh in on your thought on this >>Really breaks down into three key areas that we talk about here, sequence, right? One is you start by discovering all your APIs. How many APIs do I have in my environment that ly immediately highlight and say, Hey, you have, you know, 10,000 APIs. And that usually is an eye opener to many customers where they go, wow. I thought we had a 10th of that number. That usually is an eyeopener for them to, to at least know where they're at. The second thing is to tell them detection information. So discover, detect, and defend detect will tell them, Hey, your APIs are getting traffic from. So and so it addresses so and so infrastructure. So and so countries and so on that usually is another eye opener for them. They then get to see where their API traffic is coming from. Let's say, if you are a, if you're running a pizza delivery service out of California and your traffic is coming from Eastern Europe to go, wait a minute, nobody's trying, I'm not, I'm not, I don't deliver pizzas in Eastern Europe. Why am I getting traffic from that part of the world? So that sort of traffic immediately comes up and it will tell you that it is hitting your unauthenticated API. It is hitting your API. That has, that is vulnerable to a broken object level, that authorization, vulnerable be and so on. >>Yeah, I think, and >>Then comes the different aspect. Yeah. The different aspect is where you can take action and say, I wanna block certain types of traffic, or I wanna rate limit certain types of traffic. If, if you're seeing spikes there or you could maybe insert header so that it passes on to the end application and the application team can use that bit to essentially take a, a conscious response. And so, so the platform is very flexible in allowing them to take an action that suits their needs. >>Yeah. And I think this is the big trend. This is why I like what you guys are doing. One APIs we're built for the goodness of cloud. They're now the plumbing, you know, anytime you see plumbing involved, connection points, you know, that's pretty important. People are building it out and it has made the cloud what it is. Now, you got a security challenge. You gotta add more intelligence, more smarts to it. This is where I think platform versus tools matter. Can you guys just quickly share your thoughts on that? Cuz a lot of your customers and, and future customers have dealt with the sprawls of all these different tools. Right? I got a tool for this. I got a tool for that, but people are gravitating towards platforms, but how many platforms can a customer have? So again, this brings up the point point around how you guys are engaging with customers. Can you share your thoughts on tooling platforms? Your customers are constantly inundated with the same tsunami. Isn't new thing. Why, what, how should they look at this? >>Yeah, I mean, we don't wanna be, we don't wanna add to that alert fatigue problem that affects much of the cybersecurity industry by generating a whole bunch of alerts and so on. So what we do is we actually integrate very well with S IEM systems or so systems and allow customers to integrate the information that we are detecting or mitigating and feed them onto enterprise systems like a Splunk or a Datadog where they may have sophisticated processes built in to monitor, you know, spikes in anomalous traffic or actions that are taken by sequence. And that can be their dashboard where a whole bunch of alerting and reporting actually happens. So we play in the security ecosystem very well by integrating with other products and integrate very tightly with them, right outta the box. >>Okay. Mia, this is a wrap up now for the showcase. Really appreciate you guys sharing your awesome technology and very relevant product for your customers and where we are right now in this we call Supercloud or now multi-cloud or hybrid world of cloud. Share a, a little bit about the company, how people can get involved in your solution, how they can consume it and things they should know about, about sequence security. >>Yeah, we've been on this journey, an exciting journey it's been for, for about eight years. We have very large fortune 100 global 500 customers that use our platform on a daily basis. We have some amazing logos, both in Europe and, and, and in us customers are, this is basically not the shelf product customers not only use it, but depend on sequence. Several retailers. We are sitting in front of them handling, you know, black Friday, cyber, Monday, Christmas shopping, or any sort of holiday seasonality shopping. And we have handled that the journey starts by, by just simply looking at your API attack surface, just to a discover call with sequence, figure out where your APIs are posted work with you to prioritize how to protect them in a sort of a particular order and take the whole life cycle with sequence. This is, this is an exciting phase exciting sort of stage in the company's life. We just raised a very sort of large CDC round of funding in December from Menlo ventures. And we are excited to see, you know, what's next in, in, in the next, you know, 12 to 18 months. It certainly is the, you know, one of the top two or three items on the CSOs, you know, budget list for next year. So we are extremely busy, but we are looking for, for what the next 12 to 18 months are, are in store for us. >>Well, congratulations to all the success. So will you run the roadmap? You know, APIs are the plumbing. If you will, you know, they connection points, you know, you want to kind of keep 'em simple, as they say, keep the pipes dumb and make the intelligence around it. You seem to see more and more intelligence coming around, not just securing it, but does, where does this go in your mind? Where, where do we go beyond once we secure everything and manage it properly, APRs, aren't going away, they're only gonna get better and smarter. Where's the intelligence coming share a little bit. >>Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, there's not a dull moment in the space. As digital transformation happens to most enterprise systems, many applications are getting transformed. We are seeing an absolute explosion in the volume of APIs and the types of APIs as well. So the applications that were predominantly limited to data centers sort of deployments are now splintered across multiple different cloud environments are completely microservices based APIs, deep inside a Kubernetes cluster, for instance, and so on. So very exciting stuff in terms of proliferation of volume of APIs, as well as types of APIs, there's nature of APIs. And we are building very sophisticated machine learning models that can analyze traffic patterns of such APIs and automatically tell legitimate behavior from anomalous or suspicious behavior and so on. So very exciting sort of breadth of capabilities that we are looking at. >>Okay. I mean, yeah. I'll give you the final words since you're the CEO for the CSOs out there, the chief information security officers and the chief security officers, what do you want to tell them? If you could give them a quick shout out? What would you say to them? >>My shout out is just do an assessment with sequence. I think this is a repeating thing here, but really get to know your APIs first, before you decide what and where to protect them. That's the one simple thing I can mention for thes >>Am. Thank you so much for, for joining me today. Really appreciate it. >>Thank you. >>Thank you. Okay. That is the end of this segment of the eight of his startup showcase. Season two, episode four, I'm John for your host and we're here with sequin security. Thanks for watching.

(upbeat music) >> Hello and welcome to theCUBE's presentation of the AWS Startup Showcase. This is season two, episode four of the ongoing series covering the exciting hot startups from the AWS ecosystem. Here we're talking about cybersecurity in this episode. I'm your host, John Furrier here we're excited to have CUBE alumni who's back Snehal Antani who's the CEO and co-founder of Horizon3.ai talking about exploitable weaknesses and vulnerabilities with autonomous pen testing. Snehal, it's great to see you. Thanks for coming back. >> Likewise, John. I think it's been about five years since you and I were on the stage together. And I've missed it, but I'm glad to see you again. >> Well, before we get into the showcase about your new startup, that's extremely successful, amazing margins, great product. You have a unique journey. We talked about this prior to you doing the journey, but you have a great story. You left the startup world to go into the startup, like world of self defense, public defense, NSA. What group did you go to in the public sector became a private partner. >> My background, I'm a software engineer by education and trade. I started my career at IBM. I was a CIO at GE Capital, and I think we met once when I was there and I became the CTO of Splunk. And we spent a lot of time together when I was at Splunk. And at the end of 2017, I decided to take a break from industry and really kind of solve problems that I cared deeply about and solve problems that mattered. So I left industry and joined the US Special Operations Community and spent about four years in US Special Operations, where I grew more personally and professionally than in anything I'd ever done in my career. And exited that time, met my co-founder in special ops. And then as he retired from the air force, we started Horizon3. >> So there's really, I want to bring that up one, 'cause it's fascinating that not a lot of people in Silicon Valley and tech would do that. So thanks for the service. And I know everyone who's out there in the public sector knows that this is a really important time for the tactical edge in our military, a lot of things going on around the world. So thanks for the service and a great journey. But there's a storyline with the company you're running now that you started. I know you get the jacket on there. I noticed get a little military vibe to it. Cybersecurity, I mean, every company's on their own now. They have to build their own militia. There is no government supporting companies anymore. There's no militia. No one's on the shores of our country defending the citizens and the companies, they got to offend for themselves. So every company has to have their own military. >> In many ways, you don't see anti-aircraft rocket launchers on top of the JP Morgan building in New York City because they rely on the government for air defense. But in cyber it's very different. Every company is on their own to defend for themselves. And what's interesting is this blend. If you look at the Ukraine, Russia war, as an example, a thousand companies have decided to withdraw from the Russian economy and those thousand companies we should expect to be in the ire of the Russian government and their proxies at some point. And so it's not just those companies, but their suppliers, their distributors. And it's no longer about cyber attack for extortion through ransomware, but rather cyber attack for punishment and retaliation for leaving. Those companies are on their own to defend themselves. There's no government that is dedicated to supporting them. So yeah, the reality is that cybersecurity, it's the burden of the organization. And also your attack surface has expanded to not just be your footprint, but if an adversary wants to punish you for leaving their economy, they can get, if you're in agriculture, they could disrupt your ability to farm or they could get all your fruit to spoil at the border 'cause they disrupted your distributors and so on. So I think the entire world is going to change over the next 18 to 24 months. And I think this idea of cybersecurity is going to become truly a national problem and a problem that breaks down any corporate barriers that we see in previously. >> What are some of the things that inspired you to start this company? And I loved your approach of thinking about the customer, your customer, as defending themselves in context to threats, really leaning into it, being ready and able to defend. Horizon3 has a lot of that kind of military thinking for the good of the company. What's the motivation? Why this company? Why now? What's the value proposition? >> So there's two parts to why the company and why now. The first part was what my observation, when I left industry realm or my military background is watching "Jack Ryan" and "Tropic Thunder" and I didn't come from the military world. And so when I entered the special operations community, step one was to keep my mouth shut, learn, listen, and really observe and understand what made that community so impressive. And obviously the people and it's not about them being fast runners or great shooters or awesome swimmers, but rather there are learn-it-alls that can solve any problem as a team under pressure, which is the exact culture you want to have in any startup, early stage companies are learn-it-alls that can solve any problem under pressure as a team. So I had this immediate advantage when we started Horizon3, where a third of Horizon3 employees came from that special operations community. So one is this awesome talent. But the second part that, I remember this quote from a special operations commander that said we use live rounds in training because if we used fake rounds or rubber bullets, everyone would act like metal of honor winners. And the whole idea there is you train like you fight, you build that muscle memory for crisis and response and so on upfront. So when you're in the thick of it, you already know how to react. And this aligns to a pain I had in industry. I had no idea I was secure until the bad guy showed up. I had no idea if I was fixing the right vulnerabilities, logging the right data in Splunk, or if my CrowdStrike EDR platform was configured correctly, I had to wait for the bad guys to show up. I didn't know if my people knew how to respond to an incident. So what I wanted to do was proactively verify my security posture, proactively harden my systems. I needed to do that by continuously pen testing myself or continuously testing my security posture. And there just wasn't any way to do that where an IT admin or a network engineer could in three clicks have the power of a 20 year pen testing expert. And that was really what we set out to do, not build a autonomous pen testing platform for security people, build it so that anybody can quickly test their security posture and then use the output to fix problems that truly matter. >> So the value preposition, if I get this right is, there's a lot of companies out there doing pen tests. And I know I hate pen tests. They're like, cause you do DevOps, it changes you got to do another pen test. So it makes sense to do autonomous pen testing. So congratulations on seeing that that's obvious to that, but a lot of other have consulting tied to it. Which seems like you need to train someone and you guys taking a different approach. >> Yeah, we actually, as a company have zero consulting, zero professional services. And the whole idea is that build a true software as a service offering where an intern, in fact, we've got a video of a nine year old that in three clicks can run pen tests against themselves. And because of that, you can wire pen tests into your DevOps tool chain. You can run multiple pen tests today. In fact, I've got customers running 40, 50 pen tests a month against their organization. And that what that does is completely lowers the barrier of entry for being able to verify your posture. If you have consulting on average, when I was a CIO, it was at least a three month lead time to schedule consultants to show up and then they'd show up, they'd embarrass the security team, they'd make everyone look bad, 'cause they're going to get in, leave behind a report. And that report was almost identical to what they found last year because the older that report, the one the date itself gets stale, the context changes and so on. And then eventually you just don't even bother fixing it. Or if you fix a problem, you don't have the skills to verify that has been fixed. So I think that consulting led model was acceptable when you viewed security as a compliance checkbox, where once a year was sufficient to meet your like PCI requirements. But if you're really operating with a wartime mindset and you actually need to harden and secure your environment, you've got to be running pen test regularly against your organization from different perspectives, inside, outside, from the cloud, from work, from home environments and everything in between. >> So for the CISOs out there, for the CSOs and the CXOs, what's the pitch to them because I see your jacket that says Horizon3 AI, trust but verify. But this trust is, but is canceled out, just as verify. What's the product that you guys are offering the service. Describe what it is and why they should look at it. >> Yeah, sure. So one, when I back when I was the CIO, don't tell me we're secure in PowerPoint. Show me we're secure right now. Show me we're secure again tomorrow. And then show me we're secure again next week because my environment is constantly changing and the adversary always has a vote and they're always evolving. And this whole idea of show me we're secure. Don't trust that your security tools are working, verify that they can detect and respond and stifle an attack and then verify tomorrow, verify next week. That's the big mind shift. Now what we do is-- >> John: How do they respond to that by the way? Like they don't believe you at first or what's the story. >> I think, there's actually a very bifurcated response. There are still a decent chunk of CIOs and CSOs that have a security is a compliance checkbox mindset. So my attitude with them is I'm not going to convince you. You believe it's a checkbox. I'll just wait for you to get breached and sell to your replacement, 'cause you'll get fired. And in the meantime, I spend all my energy with those that actually care about proactively securing and hardening their environments. >> That's true. People do get fired. Can you give an example of what you're saying about this environment being ready, proving that you're secure today, tomorrow and a few weeks out. Give me an example. >> Of, yeah, I'll give you actually a customer example. There was a healthcare organization and they had about 5,000 hosts in their environment and they did everything right. They had Fortinet as their EDR platform. They had user behavior analytics in place that they had purchased and tuned. And when they ran a pen test self-service, our product node zero immediately started to discover every host on the network. It then fingerprinted all those hosts and found it was able to get code execution on three machines. So it got code execution, dumped credentials, laterally maneuvered, and became a domain administrator, which in IT, if an attacker becomes a domain admin, they've got keys to the kingdom. So at first the question was, how did the node zero pen test become domain admin? How'd they get code execution, Fortinet should have detected and stopped it. Well, it turned out Fortinet was misconfigured on three boxes out of 5,000. And these guys had no idea and it's just automation that went wrong and so on. And now they would've only known they had misconfigured their EDR platform on three hosts if the attacker had showed up. The second question though was, why didn't they catch the lateral movement? Which all their marketing brochures say they're supposed to catch. And it turned out that that customer purchased the wrong Fortinet modules. One again, they had no idea. They thought they were doing the right thing. So don't trust just installing your tools is good enough. You've got to exercise and verify them. We've got tons of stories from patches that didn't actually apply to being able to find the AWS admin credentials on a local file system. And then using that to log in and take over the cloud. In fact, I gave this talk at Black Hat on war stories from running 10,000 pen tests. And that's just the reality is, you don't know that these tools and processes are working for you until the bad guys have shown. >> The velocities there. You can accelerate through logs, you know from the days you've been there. This is now the threat. Being, I won't say lazy, but just not careful or just not thinking. >> Well, I'll do an example. We have a lot of customers that are Horizon3 customers and Splunk customers. And what you'll see their behavior is, is they'll have Horizon3 up on one screen. And every single attacker command executed with its timestamp is up on that screen. And then look at Splunk and say, hey, we were able to dump vCenter credentials from VMware products at this time on this host, what did Splunk see or what didn't they see? Why were no logs generated? And it turns out that they had some logging blind spots. So what they'll actually do is run us to almost like stimulate the defensive tools and then see what did the tools catch? What did they miss? What are those blind spots and how do they fix it. >> So your price called node zero. You mentioned that. Is that specifically a suite, a tool, a platform. How do people consume and engage with you guys? >> So the way that we work, the whole product is designed to be self-service. So once again, while we have a sales team, the whole intent is you don't need to have to talk to a sales rep to start using the product, you can log in right now, go to Horizon3.ai, you can run a trial log in with your Google ID, your LinkedIn ID, start running pen test against your home or against your network against this organization right now, without talking to anybody. The whole idea is self-service, run a pen test in three clicks and give you the power of that 20 year pen testing expert. And then what'll happen is node zero will execute and then it'll provide to you a full report of here are all of the different paths or attack paths or sequences where we are able to become an admin in your environment. And then for every attack path, here is the path or the kill chain, the proof of exploitation for every step along the way. Here's exactly what you've got to do to fix it. And then once you've fixed it, here's how you verify that you've truly fixed the problem. And this whole aha moment is run us to find problems. You fix them, rerun us to verify that the problem has been fixed. >> Talk about the company, how many people do you have and get some stats? >> Yeah, so we started writing code in January of 2020, right before the pandemic hit. And then about 10 months later at the end of 2020, we launched the first version of the product. We've been in the market for now about two and a half years total from start of the company till present. We've got 130 employees. We've got more customers than we do employees, which is really cool. And instead our customers shift from running one pen test a year to 40, 50 pen test. >> John: And it's full SaaS. >> The whole product is full SaaS. So no consulting, no pro serve. You run as often as you-- >> Who's downloading, who's buying the product. >> What's amazing is, we have customers in almost every section or sector now. So we're not overly rotated towards like healthcare or financial services. We've got state and local education or K through 12 education, state and local government, a number of healthcare companies, financial services, manufacturing. We've got organizations that large enterprises. >> John: Security's diverse. >> It's very diverse. >> I mean, ransomware must be a big driver. I mean, is that something that you're seeing a lot. >> It is. And the thing about ransomware is, if you peel back the outcome of ransomware, which is extortion, at the end of the day, what ransomware organizations or criminals or APTs will do is they'll find out who all your employees are online. They will then figure out if you've got 7,000 employees, all it takes is one of them to have a bad password. And then attackers are going to credential spray to find that one person with a bad password or whose Netflix password that's on the dark web is also their same password to log in here, 'cause most people reuse. And then from there they're going to most likely in your organization, the domain user, when you log in, like you probably have local admin on your laptop. If you're a windows machine and I've got local admin on your laptop, I'm going to be able to dump credentials, get the admin credentials and then start to laterally maneuver. Attackers don't have to hack in using zero days like you see in the movies, often they're logging in with valid user IDs and passwords that they've found and collected from somewhere else. And then they make that, they maneuver by making a low plus a low equal a high. And the other thing in financial services, we spend all of our time fixing critical vulnerabilities, attackers know that. So they've adapted to finding ways to chain together, low priority vulnerabilities and misconfigurations and dangerous defaults to become admin. So while we've over rotated towards just fixing the highs and the criticals attackers have adapted. And once again they have a vote, they're always evolving their tactics. >> And how do you prevent that from happening? >> So we actually apply those same tactics. Rarely do we actually need a CVE to compromise your environment. We will harvest credentials, just like an attacker. We will find misconfigurations and dangerous defaults, just like an attacker. We will combine those together. We'll make use of exploitable vulnerabilities as appropriate and use that to compromise your environment. So the tactics that, in many ways we've built a digital weapon and the tactics we apply are the exact same tactics that are applied by the adversary. >> So you guys basically simulate hacking. >> We actually do the hacking. Simulate means there's a fakeness to it. >> So you guys do hack. >> We actually compromise. >> Like sneakers the movie, those sneakers movie for the old folks like me. >> And in fact that was my inspiration. I've had this idea for over a decade now, which is I want to be able to look at anything that laptop, this Wi-Fi network, gear in hospital or a truck driving by and know, I can figure out how to gain initial access, rip that environment apart and be able to opponent. >> Okay, Chuck, he's not allowed in the studio anymore. (laughs) No, seriously. Some people are exposed. I mean, some companies don't have anything. But there's always passwords or so most people have that argument. Well, there's nothing to protect here. Not a lot of sensitive data. How do you respond to that? Do you see that being kind of putting the head in the sand or? >> Yeah, it's actually, it's less, there's not sensitive data, but more we've installed or applied multifactor authentication, attackers can't get in now. Well MFA only applies or does not apply to lower level protocols. So I can find a user ID password, log in through SMB, which isn't protected by multifactor authentication and still upon your environment. So unfortunately I think as a security industry, we've become very good at giving a false sense of security to organizations. >> John: Compliance drives that behavior. >> Compliance drives that. And what we need. Back to don't tell me we're secure, show me, we've got to, I think, change that to a trust but verify, but get rid of the trust piece of it, just to verify. >> Okay, we got a lot of CISOs and CSOs watching this showcase, looking at the hot startups, what's the message to the executives there. Do they want to become more leaning in more hawkish if you will, to use the military term on security? I mean, I heard one CISO say, security first then compliance 'cause compliance can make you complacent and then you're unsecure at that point. >> I actually say that. I agree. One definitely security is different and more important than being compliant. I think there's another emerging concept, which is I'd rather be defensible than secure. What I mean by that is security is a point in time state. I am secure right now. I may not be secure tomorrow 'cause something's changed. But if I'm defensible, then what I have is that muscle memory to detect, respondent and stifle an attack. And that's what's more important. Can I detect you? How long did it take me to detect you? Can I stifle you from achieving your objective? How long did it take me to stifle you? What did you use to get in to gain access? How long did that sit in my environment? How long did it take me to fix it? So on and so forth. But I think it's being defensible and being able to rapidly adapt to changing tactics by the adversary is more important. >> This is the evolution of how the red line never moved. You got the adversaries in our networks and our banks. Now they hang out and they wait. So everyone thinks they're secure. But when they start getting hacked, they're not really in a position to defend, the alarms go off. Where's the playbook. Team springs into action. I mean, you kind of get the visual there, but this is really the issue being defensible means having your own essentially military for your company. >> Being defensible, I think has two pieces. One is you've got to have this culture and process in place of training like you fight because you want to build that incident response muscle memory ahead of time. You don't want to have to learn how to respond to an incident in the middle of the incident. So that is that proactively verifying your posture and continuous pen testing is critical there. The second part is the actual fundamentals in place so you can detect and stifle as appropriate. And also being able to do that. When you are continuously verifying your posture, you need to verify your entire posture, not just your test systems, which is what most people do. But you have to be able to safely pen test your production systems, your cloud environments, your perimeter. You've got to assume that the bad guys are going to get in, once they're in, what can they do? So don't just say that my perimeter's secure and I'm good to go. It's the soft squishy center that attackers are going to get into. And from there, can you detect them and can you stop them? >> Snehal, take me through the use. You got to be sold on this, I love this topic. Alright, pen test. Is it, what am I buying? Just pen test as a service. You mentioned dark web. Are you actually buying credentials online on behalf of the customer? What is the product? What am I buying if I'm the CISO from Horizon3? What's the service? What's the product, be specific. >> So very specifically and one just principles. The first principle is when I was a buyer, I hated being nickled and dimed buyer vendors, which was, I had to buy 15 different modules in order to achieve an objective. Just give me one line item, make it super easy to buy and don't nickel and dime me. Because I've spent time as a buyer that very much has permeated throughout the company. So there is a single skew from Horizon3. It is an annual subscription based on how big your environment is. And it is inclusive of on-prem internal pen tests, external pen tests, cloud attacks, work from home attacks, our ability to harvest credentials from the dark web and from open source sources. Being able to crack those credentials, compromise. All of that is included as a singles skew. All you get as a CISO is a singles skew, annual subscription, and you can run as many pen tests as you want. Some customers still stick to, maybe one pen test a quarter, but most customers shift when they realize there's no limit, we don't nickel and dime. They can run 10, 20, 30, 40 a month. >> Well, it's not nickel and dime in the sense that, it's more like dollars and hundreds because they know what to expect if it's classic cloud consumption. They kind of know what their environment, can people try it. Let's just say I have a huge environment, I have a cloud, I have an on-premise private cloud. Can I dabble and set parameters around pricing? >> Yes you can. So one is you can dabble and set perimeter around scope, which is like manufacturing does this, do not touch the production line that's on at the moment. We've got a hospital that says every time they run a pen test, any machine that's actually connected to a patient must be excluded. So you can actually set the parameters for what's in scope and what's out of scope up front, most again we're designed to be safe to run against production so you can set the parameters for scope. You can set the parameters for cost if you want. But our recommendation is I'd rather figure out what you can afford and let you test everything in your environment than try to squeeze every penny from you by only making you buy what can afford as a smaller-- >> So the variable ratio, if you will is, how much they spend is the size of their environment and usage. >> Just size of the environment. >> So it could be a big ticket item for a CISO then. >> It could, if you're really large, but for the most part-- >> What's large? >> I mean, if you were Walmart, well, let me back up. What I heard is global 10 companies spend anywhere from 50 to a hundred million dollars a year on security testing. So they're already spending a ton of money, but they're spending it on consultants that show up maybe a couple of times a year. They don't have, humans can't scale to test a million hosts in your environment. And so you're already spending that money, spend a fraction of that and use us and run as much as you want. And that's really what it comes down to. >> John: All right. So what's the response from customers? >> What's really interesting is there are three use cases. The first is that SOC manager that is using us to verify that their security tools are actually working. So their Splunk environment is logging the right data. It's integrating properly with CrowdStrike, it's integrating properly with their active directory services and their password policies. So the SOC manager is using us to verify the effectiveness of their security controls. The second use case is the IT director that is using us to proactively harden their systems. Did they install VMware correctly? Did they install their Cisco gear correctly? Are they patching right? And then the third are for the companies that are lucky to have their own internal pen test and red teams where they use us like a force multiplier. So if you've got 10 people on your red team and you still have a million IPs or hosts in your environment, you still don't have enough people for that coverage. So they'll use us to do recon at scale and attack at scale and let the humans focus on the really juicy hard stuff that humans are successful at. >> Love the product. Again, I'm trying to think about how I engage on the test. Is there pilots? Is there a demo version? >> There's a free trials. So we do 30 day free trials. The output can actually be used to meet your SOC 2 requirements. So in many ways you can just use us to get a free SOC 2 pen test report right now, if you want. Go to the website, log in for a free trial, you can log into your Google ID or your LinkedIn ID, run a pen test against your organization and use that to answer your PCI segmentation test requirements, your SOC 2 requirements, but you will be hooked. You will want to run us more often. And you'll get a Horizon3 tattoo. >> The first hits free as they say in the drug business. >> Yeah. >> I mean, so you're seeing that kind of response then, trial converts. >> It's exactly. In fact, we have a very well defined aha moment, which is you run us to find, you fix, you run us to verify, we have 100% technical win rate when our customers hit a find, fix, verify cycle, then it's about budget and urgency. But 100% technical win rate because of that aha moment, 'cause people realize, holy crap, I don't have to wait six months to verify that my problems have actually been fixed. I can just come in, click, verify, rerun the entire pen test or rerun a very specific part of it on what I just patched my environment. >> Congratulations, great stuff. You're here part of the AWS Startup Showcase. So I have to ask, what's the relationship with AWS, you're on their cloud. What kind of actions going on there? Is there secret sauce on there? What's going on? >> So one is we are AWS customers ourselves, our brains command and control infrastructure. All of our analytics are all running on AWS. It's amazing, when we run a pen test, we are able to use AWS and we'll spin up a virtual private cloud just for that pen test. It's completely ephemeral, it's all Lambda functions and graph analytics and other techniques. When the pen test ends, you can delete, there's a single use Docker container that gets deleted from your environment so you have nothing on-prem to deal with and the entire virtual private cloud tears itself down. So at any given moment, if we're running 50 pen tests or a hundred pen tests, self-service, there's a hundred virtual private clouds being managed in AWS that are spinning up, running and tearing down. It's an absolutely amazing underlying platform for us to make use of. Two is that many customers that have hybrid environments. So they've got a cloud infrastructure, an Office 365 infrastructure and an on-prem infrastructure. We are a single attack platform that can test all of that together. No one else can do it. And so the AWS customers that are especially AWS hybrid customers are the ones that we do really well targeting. >> Got it. And that's awesome. And that's the benefit of cloud? >> Absolutely. And the AWS marketplace. What's absolutely amazing is the competitive advantage being part of the marketplace has for us, because the simple thing is my customers, if they already have dedicated cloud spend, they can use their approved cloud spend to pay for Horizon3 through the marketplace. So you don't have to, if you already have that budget dedicated, you can use that through the marketplace. The other is you've already got the vendor processes in place, you can purchase through your existing AWS account. So what I love about the AWS company is one, the infrastructure we use for our own pen test, two, the marketplace, and then three, the customers that span that hybrid cloud environment. That's right in our strike zone. >> Awesome. Well, congratulations. And thanks for being part of the showcase and I'm sure your product is going to do very, very well. It's very built for what people want. Self-service get in, get the value quickly. >> No agents to install, no consultants to hire. safe to run against production. It's what I wanted. >> Great to see you and congratulations and what a great story. And we're going to keep following you. Thanks for coming on. >> Snehal: Phenomenal. Thank you, John. >> This is the AWS Startup Showcase. I'm John John Furrier, your host. This is season two, episode four on cybersecurity. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> We're back at the Big Apple, theCUBE's coverage of MongoDB World 2022. Sahir Azam is here, he's the Chief Product Officer of MongoDB, and Guillermo Rauch who's the CEO of Vercel. Hot off the keynotes from this morning guys, good job. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you for joining us here. Thanks for having us. Guillermo when it comes to modern web development, you know the back-end, the cloud guys got to it kind of sewn up, >> you know- >> Guillermo: Forget about it. >> But all the action's in the front end, and that's where you are. Explain Vercel. >> Yeah so Vercel is the company that pioneers front-end development as serverless infrastructure. So we built Next.js which is the most popular React framework in the world. This is what front-end engineers choose to build innovative UI's, beautiful websites. Companies like Dior and GitHub and TikTok and Twitch, which we mentioned in the keynote, are powering their entire dot-coms or all of their new parts of their dot-coms with Next.js. And Vercel is the serverless platform where you can deploy frameworks like in Next.js and others like Svelte and Vue to create really fast experiences on the web. >> So I hear, so serverless, I hear that's the hot trend. You guys made some announcements today. I mean when you look at the, we have spending data with our friends at ETR right down the street. I mean it's just off the charts, whether it's Amazon, Google, Azure Functions, I mean it's just exploding. >> Sahir: Yeah, it's I think in many ways, it's a natural trend. You know, we talk a lot about, whether it be today's keynote or another industry talks you see around our industry that developers are constantly looking for ways to focus on innovation and the business logic that defines their application and as opposed to managing the plumbing, and management of infrastructure. And we've seen this happen over and over again across every layer of the stack. And so for us, you know MongoDB, we have a bit of, you know sort of a lens of a broad spectrum of the market. We certainly have you know, large enterprises that are modernizing existing kind of core systems, then we have developers all over the world who are building the next big best thing. And that's what led us to partner with Vercel is just the bleeding edge of developers building in a new way, in a much more efficient way. And we wanted to make sure we provide a data platform that fits naturally in the way they want to work. >> So explain to our audience the trade-offs of serverless, and I want to get into sort of how you've resolved that. And then I want to hear from Guillermo, what that means for developers. >> Sahir: Yeah in our case, we don't view it as an either or, there are certain workloads and definitely certain companies that will gravitate towards a more traditional database infrastructure where they're choosing the configuration of their cluster. They want full control over it. And that provides, you know, certain benefits around cost predictability or isolation or perceived benefits at least of those things. And customers will gravitate towards that. Now on the flip side, if you're building a new application or you want the ability to scale seamlessly and not have to worry about any of the plumbing, serverless is clearly the easier model. So over the long term, we certainly expect to see as a mix of things, more and more serverless workloads being built on our platform and just generally in the industry, which is why we leaned in so heavily on investing in Atlas serverless. But the flexibility to not be forced into a particular model, but to get the same database experience across your application and even switch between them is an important characteristic for us as we build going forward. >> And you stressed the cost efficiency, and not having to worry about, you know, starting cold. You've architected around that, and what does that mean for a developer? >> Guillermo: For a developer it means that you kind of get the best of both worlds, right? Like you get the best possible performance. Front-end developers are extremely sensitive to this. That's why us pioneering this concept, serverless front-end, has put us in a very privileged position because we have to deliver that really quick time to first buy, that really quick paint. So any of the old trade-offs of serverless are not accepted by the market. You have to be extremely fast. You have to be instant to deliver that front-end content. So what we talked about today for example, with the Vercel Edge network, we're removing all of the cost of that like first hit. That cold start doesn't really exist. And now we're seeing it all across the board, going into the back-end where Mongo has also gotten rid of it. >> Dave: How do you guys collaborate? What's the focus of integration specifically from, you know, an engineering resource standpoint? >> Yeah the main idea is, idea to global app in seconds, right? You have your idea. We give you the framework. We don't give you infrastructure primitives. We give you all the necessary tools to start your application. In practice this means you host it in a Git repo. You import it onto Vercel. You install the Mongo integration. Now your front-end and your data back-end are connected. And then your application just goes global in seconds. >> So, okay. So you've abstracted away the complexity of those primitives, is that correct? >> Guillermo: Absolutely. >> Do do developers ever say, "That's awesome but I'd like to get to them every now and then." Or do you not allow that? >> Definitely. We expose all the underlying APIs, and the key thing we hear is that, especially with the push for usage-based billing models, observability is of the essence. So at any time you have to be able to query, in real time, every data point that the platform is observing. We give you performance analytics in real time to see how your front-end is performing. We give you statistics about how often you're querying your back-end and so on, and your cache hit ratios. So what I talked about today in the keynote is, it's not just about throwing more compute at the problem, but the ability to use the edge to your advantage to memoize computation and reuse it across different visits. >> When we think of mission critical historically, you know, you think about going to the ATM, right? I mean a financial transaction. But Mongo is positioning for mission critical applications across a variety of industries. Do we need to rethink what mission critical means? >> I think it's all in the eye of the beholder so to speak. If you're a new business starting up, your software and your application is your entire business. So if you have a cold start latency or God forbid something actually goes down, you don't have a business. So it's just as mission critical to that founder of a new business and new technology as it is, you know, an established enterprise that's running sort of a more, you know, day-to-day application that we may all interact with. So we treat all of those scenarios with equal fervor and importance right? And many times, it's a lot of those new experiences that the become the day-to-day experiences for us globally, and are super important. And we power all of those, whether it be an established enterprise all the way to the next big startup. >> I often talk about COVID as the forced march to digital. >> Sahir: Mm-Hmm. >> Which was obviously a little bit rushed, but if you weren't in digital business, you were out of business. And so now you're seeing people step back and say, "All right, let's be more thoughtful about our digital transformation. We've got some time, we've obviously learned some things made some mistakes." It's all about the customer experience though. And that becomes mission critical right? What are you seeing Guillermo, in terms of the patterns in digital transformation now that we're sort of exiting the isolation economy? >> One thing that comes to mind is, we're seeing that it's not always predictable how fast you're going to grow in this digital economy. So we have customers in the ecommerce space, they do a drop and they're piggybacking on serverless to give them that ability to instantly scale. And they couldn't even prepare for some of these events. We see that a lot with the Web3 space and NFT drops, where they're building in such a way that they're not sensitive to this massive fluctuations in traffic. They're taking it for granted. We've put in so much work together behind the scenes to support it. But the digital native creator just, "Oh things are scaling from one second to the next like I'm hitting like 20,000 requests per second, no problem Vercel is handling it." But the amount of infrastructural work that's gone behind the scenes in support has been incredible. >> We see that in gaming all the time, you know it's really hard for a gaming company to necessarily predict where in the globe a game's going to be particularly hot. Games get super popular super fast if they're successful, it's really hard to predict. It's another vertical that's got a similar dynamic. >> So gaming, crypto, so you're saying that you're able to assist your customers in architecting so that the website doesn't crash. >> Guillermo: Absolutely. >> But at the same time, if the the business dynamic changes, they can dial down. >> Yeah. >> Right and in many ways, slow is the new down, right? And if somebody has a slow experience they're going to leave your site just as much as if it's- >> I'm out of here- >> You were down. So you know, it's really maintaining that really fast performance, that amazing customer experience. Because this is all measured, it's scientific. Like anytime there's friction in the process, you're going to lose customers. >> So obviously people are excited about your keynote, but what have they been saying? Any specific comments you can share, or questions that you got that were really interesting or? >> I'm already getting links to the apps that people are deploying. So the whole idea- >> Come on! >> All over the world. Yeah so it's already working I'm excited. >> So they were show they were showing off, "Look what I did" Really? >> Yeah on Twitter. >> That's amazing. >> I think from my standpoint, I got a question earlier, we were with a bunch of financial analysts and investors, and they said they've been talking to a lot of the customers in the halls. And just to see, you know, from the last time we were all in person, the number of our customers that are using multiple capabilities across this idea of a developer data platform, you know, certainly MongoDB's been a popular core database open source for a long time. But the new capabilities around search, analytics, mobile being adopted much more broadly to power these experiences is the most exciting thing from our side. >> So from 2019 to now, you're saying substantial uptick in adoption for these features? >> Yeah. And many of them are new. >> Time series as well, that's pretty new, so yeah. >> Yeah and you know, our philosophy of development at MongoDB is to get capabilities in the hands of customers early. Get that feedback to enrich and drive that product-market fit. And over the last three years especially, we've been transitioning from a single product kind of core, you know, non relational modern database to a data platform, a developer data platform that adds more and more capabilities to power these modern applications. And a lot of those were released during the pandemic. Certainly we talked about them in our virtual conferences and all the zoom meetings we had over the years. But to actually go talk to all these customers, this is the largest conference we've ever put on, and to get a sense of, wow all the amazing things they're doing with them, it's definitely a different feeling when we're all together. >> So that's interesting, when you have such a hot product, product-led growth which is what Mongo has been in, and you add these new features. They're coming from the developers who are saying, "Hey, we need this." >> Yip. >> Okay so you have a pretty high degree of confidence, but how do you know when you have product-market fit? I mean, is it adoption, usage, renewals? What's your metric? >> Yeah I think it's a mix of quantitative measures that you know, around conversion rates, the size of your funnel, the retention rate, NPS which obviously can be measured, but also just qualitative. You know when you're talking to a developer or a technology executive around what their needs are, and then you see how they actually apply it to solve a problem, it's that balance between the qualitative and the quantitative measurement of things. And you can just sort of, frankly you can feel it. You can see it in the numbers sure, but you can kind of feel that excitement, you can see that adoption and what it empowers people to do. And so to me, as a product leader, it's always a blend of those things. If you get too obsessed with purely the metrics, you can always over optimize something for the wrong reason. So you have to bring in that qualitative feedback to balance yourself out. >> Right. >> Guillermo, what's next? What do you not have that you want from Sahir and Mongo? >> So the natural next step for serverless computing is, is the Edge. So we have to auto-scale, we have to tolerate fares. We have to be avail. We have to be easy, but we have to be global. And right now we've been doing this by using a lot of techniques like caching and replication and things like this. But the future's about personalizing even more to each visitor depending on where they are. So if I'm in New York, I want to get the latest offers for New York on demand, just for me, and using AI to continue to personalize that experience. So giving the developer these tools in a way where it feels natural to build an application like this. It doesn't feel like, "Oh I'm going to do this year 10 if I make it, I'm going to do it since the very beginning." >> Dave: Okay interesting. So that says to me that I'm not going to make a round trip to the cloud necessarily for that experience. So I'm going to have some kind, Apple today, at the Worldwide Developer Conference announced the M2, right. I've been looking at the M1 Ultra, and I'm going wow look at that! And so- >> Sahir: You were talking about that new one backstage. >> I mean it's this amazing pace of Silicon development and they're focusing on the NPU and you look at what Tesla's doing. I mean it's just incredible. So you're going to have some new hardware architecture that emerges. Most of the AI that's done today is modeling in the cloud. You're going to have a real time inferencing at the Edge. So that's not going to do the round trip. There's going to be a data store there, I think it has to be. You're going to persist some of the data, maybe not all of it. So it's a whole new architecture- >> Sahir: Absolutely. >> That's developing. That sounds very disruptive. >> Sahir: Yeah. >> How do you think about that, and how does Mongo play there? Guillermo first. >> What I spent a lot of time thinking about is obviously the developer experience, giving the programmer a programming model that is natural, intuitive, and produces its great results. So if they have to think about data that's local because of regulatory reasons for example, how can we let the framework guide them to success? I'm just writing an application I deployed to the cloud and then everything else is figured out. >> Yeah or speed of light is another challenge. (Sahir and Guillermo laugh) >> How can we overcome the speed of light is our next task for sure. >> Well you're working on that aren't you? You've got the best engineers on that one. (Sahir and Guillermo laugh) >> We can solve a lot of problems, I'm not sure of that one. >> So Mongo plays in that scenario or? >> Yeah so I think, absolutely you know, we've been focused heavily on becoming the globally distributed cloud data layer. The back-end data layer that allows you to persist data to align with performance and move data where it needs to be globally or deal with data sovereignty, data nationalism that's starting to rise, but absolutely there is more data being pushed out to the Edge, to your point around processing or inference happening at the Edge. And there's going to be a globally distributed front-end layer as well, whether data and processing takes apart. And so we're focused on one, making sure the data connectivity and the layer is all connected into one unified architecture. We do that in combination with technologies that we have that do with mobility or edge distribution and synchronization of data with realm. And we do it with partnerships. We have edge partnerships with AWS and Verizon. We have partnerships with a lot of CVM players who are building out that Edge platform and making sure that MongoDB is either connected to it or just driving that synchronization back and forth. >> I call that unified experience super cloud, Robbie Belson from Verizon the cloud continuum, but that consistent experience for developers whether you're on Prim, whether you're in you know, Azure, Google, AWS, and ultimately the Edge. That's the big- >> That's where it's going. >> White space right now I'm hearing, Guillermo, right? >> I think it'll define the next generation of how software is built. And we're seeing this almost like a coalition course between some of the ideas that the Web3 developers are excited about, which is like decentralization almost to the extreme. But the Web2 also needs more decentralization, because we're seeing it with like, the data needs to be local to me, I need more privacy. I was looking at the latest encryption features in Mongo, like I think both Web2 need to incorporate more of the ideas of Web3 and vice versa to create the best possible consumer experience. Privacy matters more than ever before. Latency for conversion matters more than ever before. And regulations are changing. >> Sahir: Yeah. >> And you talked about Web3 earlier, talked about new protocols, a new distributed you know, decentralized system emerging, new hardware architectures. I really believe we really think that new economics are going to bleed back into the data center, and yeah every 15 years or so this industry gets disrupted. >> Sahir: Yeah. >> Guillermo: Absolutely. >> You know you ain't see nothing yet guys. >> We all talked about hardware becoming commoditized 10, 15 years ago- >> Yeah of course. >> We get the virtualization, and it's like nope not at all. It's actually a lot of invention happening. >> The lower the price the more the consumption. So guys thanks so much. Great conversation. >> Thank you. >> Really appreciate your time. >> Really appreciate it I enjoyed the conversation. >> All right and thanks for watching. Keep it right there. We'll be back with our next segment right after this short break. Dave Vellante for theCUBE's coverage of MongoDB World 2022. >> Man Offscreen: Clear. (clapping) >> All right wow. Don't get up. >> Sahir: Okay. >> Is that a Moonwatch? >> Sahir: It is a Speedmaster but it's that the-

>> Man Offscreen: Standby. Dave is coming you in 5, 4, 3, 2. >> We're back at the Big Apple, theCUBE's coverage of MongoDB World 2022. Sahir Azam is here, he's the Chief Product Officer of MongoDB, and Guillermo Rauch who's the CEO of Vercel. Hot off the keynotes from this morning guys, good job. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you for joining us here. Thanks for having us. Guillermo when it comes to modern web development, you know the back-end, the cloud guys got to it kind of sewn up, >> you know- >> Guillermo: Forget about it. >> But all the action's in the front end, and that's where you are. Explain Vercel. >> Yeah so Vercel is the company that pioneers front-end development as serverless infrastructure. So we built Next.js which is the most popular React framework in the world. This is what front-end engineers choose to build innovative UI's, beautiful websites. Companies like Dior and GitHub and TikTok and Twitch, which we mentioned in the keynote, are powering their entire dot-coms or all of their new parts of their dot-coms with Next.js. And Vercel is the serverless platform where you can deploy frameworks like in Next.js and others like Svelte and Vue to create really fast experiences on the web. >> So I hear, so serverless, I hear that's the hot trend. You guys made some announcements today. I mean when you look at the, we have spending data with our friends at ETR right down the street. I mean it's just off the charts, whether it's Amazon, Google, Azure Functions, I mean it's just exploding. >> Sahir: Yeah, it's I think in many ways, it's a natural trend. You know, we talk a lot about, whether it be today's keynote or another industry talks you see around our industry that developers are constantly looking for ways to focus on innovation and the business logic that defines their application and as opposed to managing the plumbing, and management of infrastructure. And we've seen this happen over and over again across every layer of the stack. And so for us, you know MongoDB, we have a bit of, you know sort of a lens of a broad spectrum of the market. We certainly have you know, large enterprises that are modernizing existing kind of core systems, then we have developers all over the world who are building the next big best thing. And that's what led us to partner with Vercel is just the bleeding edge of developers building in a new way, in a much more efficient way. And we wanted to make sure we provide a data platform that fits naturally in the way they want to work. >> So explain to our audience the trade-offs of serverless, and I want to get into sort of how you've resolved that. And then I want to hear from Guillermo, what that means for developers. >> Sahir: Yeah in our case, we don't view it as an either or, there are certain workloads and definitely certain companies that will gravitate towards a more traditional database infrastructure where they're choosing the configuration of their cluster. They want full control over it. And that provides, you know, certain benefits around cost predictability or isolation or perceived benefits at least of those things. And customers will gravitate towards that. Now on the flip side, if you're building a new application or you want the ability to scale seamlessly and not have to worry about any of the plumbing, serverless is clearly the easier model. So over the long term, we certainly expect to see as a mix of things, more and more serverless workloads being built on our platform and just generally in the industry, which is why we leaned in so heavily on investing in Atlas serverless. But the flexibility to not be forced into a particular model, but to get the same database experience across your application and even switch between them is an important characteristic for us as we build going forward. >> And you stressed the cost efficiency, and not having to worry about, you know, starting cold. You've architected around that, and what does that mean for a developer? >> Guillermo: For a developer it means that you kind of get the best of both worlds, right? Like you get the best possible performance. Front-end developers are extremely sensitive to this. That's why us pioneering this concept, serverless front-end, has put us in a very privileged position because we have to deliver that really quick time to first buy, that really quick paint. So any of the old trade-offs of serverless are not accepted by the market. You have to be extremely fast. You have to be instant to deliver that front-end content. So what we talked about today for example, with the Vercel Edge network, we're removing all of the cost of that like first hit. That cold start doesn't really exist. And now we're seeing it all across the board, going into the back-end where Mongo has also gotten rid of it. >> Dave: How do you guys collaborate? What's the focus of integration specifically from, you know, an engineering resource standpoint? >> Yeah the main idea is, idea to global app in seconds, right? You have your idea. We give you the framework. We don't give you infrastructure primitives. We give you all the necessary tools to start your application. In practice this means you host it in a Git repo. You import it onto Vercel. You install the Mongo integration. Now your front-end and your data back-end are connected. And then your application just goes global in seconds. >> So, okay. So you've abstracted away the complexity of those primitives, is that correct? >> Guillermo: Absolutely. >> Do do developers ever say, "That's awesome but I'd like to get to them every now and then." Or do you not allow that? >> Definitely. We expose all the underlying APIs, and the key thing we hear is that, especially with the push for usage-based billing models, observability is of the essence. So at any time you have to be able to query, in real time, every data point that the platform is observing. We give you performance analytics in real time to see how your front-end is performing. We give you statistics about how often you're querying your back-end and so on, and your cache hit ratios. So what I talked about today in the keynote is, it's not just about throwing more compute at the problem, but the ability to use the edge to your advantage to memoize computation and reuse it across different visits. >> When we think of mission critical historically, you know, you think about going to the ATM, right? I mean a financial transaction. But Mongo is positioning for mission critical applications across a variety of industries. Do we need to rethink what mission critical means? >> I think it's all in the eye of the beholder so to speak. If you're a new business starting up, your software and your application is your entire business. So if you have a cold start latency or God forbid something actually goes down, you don't have a business. So it's just as mission critical to that founder of a new business and new technology as it is, you know, an established enterprise that's running sort of a more, you know, day-to-day application that we may all interact with. So we treat all of those scenarios with equal fervor and importance right? And many times, it's a lot of those new experiences that the become the day-to-day experiences for us globally, and are super important. And we power all of those, whether it be an established enterprise all the way to the next big startup. >> I often talk about COVID as the forced march to digital. >> Sahir: Mm-Hmm. >> Which was obviously a little bit rushed, but if you weren't in digital business, you were out of business. And so now you're seeing people step back and say, "All right, let's be more thoughtful about our digital transformation. We've got some time, we've obviously learned some things made some mistakes." It's all about the customer experience though. And that becomes mission critical right? What are you seeing Guillermo, in terms of the patterns in digital transformation now that we're sort of exiting the isolation economy? >> One thing that comes to mind is, we're seeing that it's not always predictable how fast you're going to grow in this digital economy. So we have customers in the ecommerce space, they do a drop and they're piggybacking on serverless to give them that ability to instantly scale. And they couldn't even prepare for some of these events. We see that a lot with the Web3 space and NFT drops, where they're building in such a way that they're not sensitive to this massive fluctuations in traffic. They're taking it for granted. We've put in so much work together behind the scenes to support it. But the digital native creator just, "Oh things are scaling from one second to the next like I'm hitting like 20,000 requests per second, no problem Vercel is handling it." But the amount of infrastructural work that's gone behind the scenes in support has been incredible. >> We see that in gaming all the time, you know it's really hard for a gaming company to necessarily predict where in the globe a game's going to be particularly hot. Games get super popular super fast if they're successful, it's really hard to predict. It's another vertical that's got a similar dynamic. >> So gaming, crypto, so you're saying that you're able to assist your customers in architecting so that the website doesn't crash. >> Guillermo: Absolutely. >> But at the same time, if the the business dynamic changes, they can dial down. >> Yeah. >> Right and in many ways, slow is the new down, right? And if somebody has a slow experience they're going to leave your site just as much as if it's- >> I'm out of here- >> You were down. So you know, it's really maintaining that really fast performance, that amazing customer experience. Because this is all measured, it's scientific. Like anytime there's friction in the process, you're going to lose customers. >> So obviously people are excited about your keynote, but what have they been saying? Any specific comments you can share, or questions that you got that were really interesting or? >> I'm already getting links to the apps that people are deploying. So the whole idea- >> Come on! >> All over the world. Yeah so it's already working I'm excited. >> So they were show they were showing off, "Look what I did" Really? >> Yeah on Twitter. >> That's amazing. >> I think from my standpoint, I got a question earlier, we were with a bunch of financial analysts and investors, and they said they've been talking to a lot of the customers in the halls. And just to see, you know, from the last time we were all in person, the number of our customers that are using multiple capabilities across this idea of a developer data platform, you know, certainly MongoDB's been a popular core database open source for a long time. But the new capabilities around search, analytics, mobile being adopted much more broadly to power these experiences is the most exciting thing from our side. >> So from 2019 to now, you're saying substantial uptick in adoption for these features? >> Yeah. And many of them are new. >> Time series as well, that's pretty new, so yeah. >> Yeah and you know, our philosophy of development at MongoDB is to get capabilities in the hands of customers early. Get that feedback to enrich and drive that product-market fit. And over the last three years especially, we've been transitioning from a single product kind of core, you know, non relational modern database to a data platform, a developer data platform that adds more and more capabilities to power these modern applications. And a lot of those were released during the pandemic. Certainly we talked about them in our virtual conferences and all the zoom meetings we had over the years. But to actually go talk to all these customers, this is the largest conference we've ever put on, and to get a sense of, wow all the amazing things they're doing with them, it's definitely a different feeling when we're all together. >> So that's interesting, when you have such a hot product, product-led growth which is what Mongo has been in, and you add these new features. They're coming from the developers who are saying, "Hey, we need this." >> Yip. >> Okay so you have a pretty high degree of confidence, but how do you know when you have product-market fit? I mean, is it adoption, usage, renewals? What's your metric? >> Yeah I think it's a mix of quantitative measures that you know, around conversion rates, the size of your funnel, the retention rate, NPS which obviously can be measured, but also just qualitative. You know when you're talking to a developer or a technology executive around what their needs are, and then you see how they actually apply it to solve a problem, it's that balance between the qualitative and the quantitative measurement of things. And you can just sort of, frankly you can feel it. You can see it in the numbers sure, but you can kind of feel that excitement, you can see that adoption and what it empowers people to do. And so to me, as a product leader, it's always a blend of those things. If you get too obsessed with purely the metrics, you can always over optimize something for the wrong reason. So you have to bring in that qualitative feedback to balance yourself out. >> Right. >> Guillermo, what's next? What do you not have that you want from Sahir and Mongo? >> So the natural next step for serverless computing is, is the Edge. So we have to auto-scale, we have to tolerate fares. We have to be avail. We have to be easy, but we have to be global. And right now we've been doing this by using a lot of techniques like caching and replication and things like this. But the future's about personalizing even more to each visitor depending on where they are. So if I'm in New York, I want to get the latest offers for New York on demand, just for me, and using AI to continue to personalize that experience. So giving the developer these tools in a way where it feels natural to build an application like this. It doesn't feel like, "Oh I'm going to do this year 10 if I make it, I'm going to do it since the very beginning." >> Dave: Okay interesting. So that says to me that I'm not going to make a round trip to the cloud necessarily for that experience. So I'm going to have some kind, Apple today, at the Worldwide Developer Conference announced the M2, right. I've been looking at the M1 Ultra, and I'm going wow look at that! And so- >> Sahir: You were talking about that new one backstage. >> I mean it's this amazing pace of Silicon development and they're focusing on the NPU and you look at what Tesla's doing. I mean it's just incredible. So you're going to have some new hardware architecture that emerges. Most of the AI that's done today is modeling in the cloud. You're going to have a real time inferencing at the Edge. So that's not going to do the round trip. There's going to be a data store there, I think it has to be. You're going to persist some of the data, maybe not all of it. So it's a whole new architecture- >> Sahir: Absolutely. >> That's developing. That sounds very disruptive. >> Sahir: Yeah. >> How do you think about that, and how does Mongo play there? Guillermo first. >> What I spent a lot of time thinking about is obviously the developer experience, giving the programmer a programming model that is natural, intuitive, and produces its great results. So if they have to think about data that's local because of regulatory reasons for example, how can we let the framework guide them to success? I'm just writing an application I deployed to the cloud and then everything else is figured out. >> Yeah or speed of light is another challenge. (Sahir and Guillermo laugh) >> How can we overcome the speed of light is our next task for sure. >> Well you're working on that aren't you? You've got the best engineers on that one. (Sahir and Guillermo laugh) >> We can solve a lot of problems, I'm not sure of that one. >> So Mongo plays in that scenario or? >> Yeah so I think, absolutely you know, we've been focused heavily on becoming the globally distributed cloud data layer. The back-end data layer that allows you to persist data to align with performance and move data where it needs to be globally or deal with data sovereignty, data nationalism that's starting to rise, but absolutely there is more data being pushed out to the Edge, to your point around processing or inference happening at the Edge. And there's going to be a globally distributed front-end layer as well, whether data and processing takes apart. And so we're focused on one, making sure the data connectivity and the layer is all connected into one unified architecture. We do that in combination with technologies that we have that do with mobility or edge distribution and synchronization of data with realm. And we do it with partnerships. We have edge partnerships with AWS and Verizon. We have partnerships with a lot of CVM players who are building out that Edge platform and making sure that MongoDB is either connected to it or just driving that synchronization back and forth. >> I call that unified experience super cloud, Robbie Belson from Verizon the cloud continuum, but that consistent experience for developers whether you're on Prim, whether you're in you know, Azure, Google, AWS, and ultimately the Edge. That's the big- >> That's where it's going. >> White space right now I'm hearing, Guillermo, right? >> I think it'll define the next generation of how software is built. And we're seeing this almost like a coalition course between some of the ideas that the Web3 developers are excited about, which is like decentralization almost to the extreme. But the Web2 also needs more decentralization, because we're seeing it with like, the data needs to be local to me, I need more privacy. I was looking at the latest encryption features in Mongo, like I think both Web2 need to incorporate more of the ideas of Web3 and vice versa to create the best possible consumer experience. Privacy matters more than ever before. Latency for conversion matters more than ever before. And regulations are changing. >> Sahir: Yeah. >> And you talked about Web3 earlier, talked about new protocols, a new distributed you know, decentralized system emerging, new hardware architectures. I really believe we really think that new economics are going to bleed back into the data center, and yeah every 15 years or so this industry gets disrupted. >> Sahir: Yeah. >> Guillermo: Absolutely. >> You know you ain't see nothing yet guys. >> We all talked about hardware becoming commoditized 10, 15 years ago- >> Yeah of course. >> We get the virtualization, and it's like nope not at all. It's actually a lot of invention happening. >> The lower the price the more the consumption. So guys thanks so much. Great conversation. >> Thank you. >> Really appreciate your time. >> Really appreciate it I enjoyed the conversation. >> All right and thanks for watching. Keep it right there. We'll be back with our next segment right after this short break. Dave Vellante for theCUBE's coverage of MongoDB World 2022. >> Man Offscreen: Clear. (clapping) >> All right wow. Don't get up. >> Sahir: Okay. >> Is that a Moonwatch? >> Sahir: It is a Speedmaster but it's that the-

(calm music) >> Okay, welcome back everyone to theCUBE's live coverage here on the floor at Moscone south in San Francisco California for AWS summit, 2022. This is part of their summit conferences, not re:Invent it's kind of like becoming like regional satellite, mini re:Invents, but it's all part of education developers. Of course theCUBE's here. We're going to be at the AWS summit in New York city, only two this year. And this summer check us out. Of course, re:MARS is another event we're going to be going to so check us out there as well. And of course re:Invent at the end of the year and re:Inforce the security conference in Boston. So, Sarbjeet Johal, our next guest here. CUBE alumni, CUBE influencer, influencer in the cloud industry. Sarbjeet great to see you. Thanks for coming on. Oh, by the way, we'll be at Boston re:Inforce, re:Invent in December, re:MARS which is the robotics AI show, and of course the summit here in San Francisco and New York city, the hot areas. >> That's cool. >> Great to see you. >> Good to see you too. >> Okay. I got a lot of data to report. You've been on the floor talking to people. What are you finding out? What's the report? >> The report is actually, I spoke to three people from AWS earlier. As said one higher up guy from the doctor, Casey Tan. He works on French SaaS chips and he gave me a low down on how that thing works. And there's a systolic arrays TPUs, and like a lot of insider stuff >> Like deep Silicon chip stuff. >> Yes. And that they're doing some great stuff there. And of course that works for us at scale and for cloud guys it's all about scale. If you're saving pennies at that scale, you're saving millions and maybe hundreds of millions at some point. Right? So that was one. And I also spoke to the analytics guys and they gave me some low-down on the Glue announcements. How the big data processing is happening at AWS and how they are now giving you the ability where your infrastructure hugs your demand. So you're not wasting any sources. So that was a number one complaint with the Glue from AWS. So that was one. And then I did the DeepRacing race and my timings were like number 78. So. >> You got some work to do. You download your machine learning module. >> No, I will do that and then play with it. Yes. I will train one. >> You like a simulation too? >> Yeah. Yeah. I will do that simulation, yes. >> What else? Anything jump off the page for you. What's the highlight if you could point at something? Did anything pop up at you in this event with AWS? Was there any aha moment or something that just jumps off the page? >> I think it was mainly sort of incremental to be honest with you. And the one thing-- >> Nothing earth shattering >> Nothing earth shattering and that at the summit it's like that, you know, like it but they are doing new announcements of like almost every day with new services. So I would go home and read on that but there are some patterns that we are seeing emerging and there are some folks very active on Twitter. Mark in recent just did very controversial kind of tweet couple of days back. That was, that was hard. >> Was he shit posting again? >> Shit posting. Yeah. He was shit posting actually, according to actually I saw Corey as well on the floor, Corey and Rodrigo. And, and-- >> Did you see Corey's interview with me? We were talking about shit posting 'cause he wrote in this newsletter. Mark and recently Elon Musk, they're all kind of like they're really kind of active on Twitter with a lot of highly intelligent snarkiness. >> They're super intelligent and they know the patterns, they know the economics and technology. Super smart guys and yeah. Who is in control, there was a move from the middle seat and social media kind of side of things where people are controlling the narratives and who controls the narrative. Is it billionaires? Is it government? We see that. >> Well I mean, it's interesting seeing the power. I mean, I call it the revenge of the nerds. You got the billionaires who are looking at the political screw-ups that Facebook and others have done. And by not being clear and it's hard, it's a hard problem to solve. I don't really want to be in their seat. Even Andy Jassy is the CEO of AWS. What is he? I mean, he's dealing with problems that for some people would be their worst part of like they could ever dream of scenario. He's dealing with that at breakfast. And then throughout his day, he's got all kinds of Amazon's so big and Apple and you got Google and you got the fan companies. So, you know, at some point tech is now so part of society, it's not just the nerds from California. It's tech is in everything now. So it's a societal impact. And so there's consequences for stuff. And so you're starting to see this force for good that's come from the sustainability angle. You're going to start to see force for good with technology as it relates to people's lives. And we had Mapbox on the CUBE and they provide all this navigation and Gareth the guy who runs that division, he talks about dark kitchens, dark stores. So just they're re-engineering the supply chain of delivery. So we all been to restaurants and seen people there from picking up food delivery. Why are they going to the retail? So dark kitchens are just basically depots for supplying the 10 menus that everyone orders from. That's a change of a structural change in the industry. So that's jumped out at me, Matt Wood spoke to me about serverless impact to the analytics team. And again, structural changes, technical and culture. Right? So, so you're starting to see to me more and more of the two themes of some technology change, architectural change, system change and culture thinking. And you know, we had a 20 year old guest on here who was first worked at Amazon web services when he was 16. >> Wow. >> Graduated high school early and went into Amazon. He's like, I love tools. So people love tools. Hardware is coming back. Right? So I mean Sarbjeet this is crazy. >> It's crazy. >> What's going on. >> It's crazy actually. Remember the nine year old kid at re:Invent 2019. Karthick was the name if I remember, but I spoke to him and he was crazy. He was AWS certified and kids are playing with this technology in their high schools. >> It's awesome. >> And even in their elementary schools now. >> They can get their hands on it quicker. They don't need to go in full class for a year. They can self-teach, they can do side projects they can launch a side hustle, they can stand up a headless retail outlet, who knows what they can do if you got the Lego blocks. This is what I love about the cloud, you can really show something fast and then abandon it. >> Actually, I think it is all enabled through cloud. Like the accessibility of technology has gone like exponentially, like wildfire. Like once you have access to the cloud just all you need is connection to the internet. After that you have the VMs. and you have the serverless, there's zero cost to you. And things are thrown at you. Somebody who was saying that earlier here like we have said that many times it's like that's how the drug dealer, you know, sell the drug. Like sniff it, it's free, >> First is free. >> So they're doing it. Yes. >> We say that about theCUBE. >> And from the, I see cloud from two different angles, like we all do. And like, I try to sort of force myself to look at it from the both angles. There's the supplier side and the buyer side or the consumer side on the other side. Right? So from the supplier side, it's a race for talent to build it, number one, then number two is race for talent to train them. So we saw the numbers and millions being shown today at the keynote again. And Google is showing those numbers as well. Like how many millions they are training like 25 to 30 million people within next two, three years. It's crazy numbers. >> Sarbjeet I got to say so if I have to look at what jumped off the page for me on this event, was couple things and this is kind of weird nuanced stuff but I'll just try to explain it as best I can. Number one, we're going to see more managed services like DevOps managed services. As DevOps teams grow, talent is a problem. And Kubernetes obviously is growing and got to get that right. It's not easy to be a Kubernetes, you know slinging clusters around with Kubernetes. It's hard. I think that's got to get easier. So I think the path to easy is going to be some sort of abstraction service layer. And I think the smart people are going to have this layer will manage it and then provide that as a service, number one. Number two is this notion of a systems design thinking around elements, whether it's storage or maps for like Mapbox and around these elements they have to have a systematic effect of other things. You can't just, if it changes, it's going to have consequences that's what systems do. So, tooling being built around these elements and they have to have hardened APIs that is clear. People who are trying to be "cloud native" need to get this right. And you have to have the tooling in and around the the element and then have APIs to connect and then glue up. So it's interesting. Clearly those things are happening and multiple conversations, people were teasing that out. And then obviously the super cloud was coming in. >> Is there. >> Mapbox is basically a super cloud. They're like what snowflake is for data analytics. They are for-- >> MongoDB is another one. >> MongoDB's got Atlas. I mean, MongoDB was criticized for years. Doesn't scale. Remember the old lamp stack days, they were preferred. They're document, they nailed it with document. The document aspects of data, but they were always getting criticized. They can't scale. And they just keep scaling. But now with Atlas, they're on AWS. It's just, auto scale. So that's killer for MongoDB. So I think their stock price is undervalued my opinion but you know, I don't give legal advice. >> I think that the whole notion of-- >> Or financial advice. >> The multicloud, right? So for a multicloud to kill that complexity of multicloud, we have to go to the what Dave Vellante and you guys say super cloud, right? Another level of abstraction on top of infrastructure provider by AWS, Google cloud, Azure. So that's where we're going. >> Well, Dave and I debate this right, he bundles multi-cloud in there and most people think that's what he's saying but I'm saying multi-cloud is a reality. I mean, multi-cloud means you're going to have multiple clouds. They're just not you're not sharing workloads across those clouds. It's like not the same workload. That's not going to yet happen. I run Azure because I have 365, that's it. I run Amazon for everything else. That's kind of the use case. But to me, super cloud is building on top of AWS or Azure where you leverage their CapEx and create differentiated value. It's your own cloud without all the CapEx but it's got to be like super integrated and the benefit's got to be so good that it seems like pennies to your point earlier. >> Yeah. >> And the economics to the applications in it are just so obvious and they got to be they got to be so big for the application developer. So that's to me is super cloud. And then of course having the connected tissue to manage the transit around multiple clouds. >> Yeah. I think they have it too. I totally agree with you. But another thing is from having the developer background I think the backward compatibility is a huge issue in cloud. >> Yeah. I agree. >> It's a lot of technical debt being built and I hear that, I'm hearing that more and more. I think that we have to solve as industry as like these three main players have to solve that problem. So that's one big thing, actually. I'm very like after, you know, like to talk about it and all that stuff. So yeah. It's another thing is another pattern actually to all the cloud naysayers out there, right? Is that those are the people who come from the hardware background. So I've seen another pattern out there. So I'm trying to synthesize, who are these people who bash cloud all the time? I'm pro-cloud of course everybody knows that. >> We know you're pro, we're all pro cloud. We're totally biased. We love cloud >> Actually. No, I've seen both sides. I've seen both sides. I've worked at EMC, VMware, I worked at Oracle cloud as well. And then, and before that I have written a lot of software. A software developer is pro-cloud. A typical hardware ops guy or girl, they are pro on-prem or pro hybrid and all that. Like they try to keep it there. >> I think first of all, I have opinion on this. I think, I think you're right. But how hardware is coming back, if you look at how cloud is enabling hardware, it's retro, it's designed for the cloud. So hardware's going to offload, either accelerate stuff and offload stuff from the software guide. So look at DeepRacer it's hardware. Now it's a car. You've got the silicon and the chips. So the chips you're talking about. Those aren't chips for service and the data center. They're just chips to make the software in the cloud run better. >> Sarbjeet: Well scale. >> So scaling. And so I think we're going to see a Renaissance in hardware. It's going to look different. It's going to act different. So we're watching this. I mean, you brought up the idea of having a CUBE hardware box. >> Yeah. It's a great idea. >> It's a good idea. DM me and tell me it's a bad idea or good idea. I'll blame Sarbjeet for that. But what else have you learned? >> What else have learnt actually it's basically boils down to economics at the end of the day. It's about moving fast. It's about having developer productivity, again going back the cloud naysayers. It's like, why did you build a bike? Remember Steve Job used to say that, "computer is the bicycle for the human minds." >> Yes. >> Right. So cloud is the bicycle for the enterprises. They makes them move faster. 'So I think that's-- >> All right. We're closing down. We're going to hold on until they pull the plug on theCUBE literally. Sarbjeet great to see you on there. Check 'em out on Twitter. Great event. Good to see you, great report. Thank for sharing. Sarbjeet Johal here on theCUBE, taking over our community site I hear, right? Now you going to work-- >> I'm there. I'm always there. >> Great to have you on. I'm going to work on some new things with theCUBE. Really appreciate working with us. Thanks a lot. >> I really appreciate you guys giving me this platform. It's an amazing platform. Thank you very much. >> That's all right. We'll be back. That's it for our coverage of AWS summit 2020 here live on the floor. Events are back. Hybrid's back. We get theCUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston. Re:invent at the end of the year but we're going to the summit in New York city. In the summer, we got re:Inforce in Boston the security conference. Re:MARS which is the robotics IML conference. And of course the big summit New York and San Francisco we're there of course. Share thecube.net for all the action. I'm John for your host with Sarbjeet here. Closing out the show. Thanks for watching. (Calm music)

>>Okay, welcome back everyone to the cubes coverage here in San Francisco, California of AWS summit, 2022. I'm John Farry host of the cube AWS summit in New York city. Coming up in the summer. We'll be there as well for live interviews there. Events are back and we're excited. I have a great guest here y'all you of CEO and co-founder and Juna security based outta Palo Alto. Great to have you coming on the queue. Appreciate it. Yeah. >>Thanks. >>Thanks for having, so tell us about what you guys are doing. You guys have a really cool cost of confidential computing. Take a minute to explain what the company does. >>Sure. So, uh, at high level confidential computing is the ability to take any workload, any piece of data, regardless of sensitive, it is and run it completely isolated, completely private, completely protected, essentially on any infrastructure, uh, and that enables organizations to take any, any workload and move it to UN you know, um, sensitive, potential sensitive locations, like the public cloud, where somebody else is managing your infrastructure. >>So basically the problem you solve is you provide security layer for workloads. >>Exactly. >>Exactly's also govern in security issues, but also just general hacking, >>Right? Oh, ex exactly. Essentially any, any organization having any type of sensitive information, think about, you know, financial services, think about healthcare, think about, you know, oil and gas that need to protect the data where they're gonna drill next. Any, any kind of organization that has sensitive information has that issue and needs to protect data in any environment they run in. >>So Amazon would be like, wait a minute. We're secure. What come on. >>Uh, actually AWS is, uh, is one of our partners and we we're actually building on top of, uh, a new technology that AWS, uh, built called, uh, nitro enclaves. And actually all the public clouds have built a technology like this. Uh, the reason why they've done this is to security and privacy are the number one. And number two reasons why people don't move more workloads to the public cloud. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So what the public clouds have done is added this technology to be able to tell their customers one is we don't have any access to your data running on top of our infrastructure. And number two, be able to turn to the government and tell them, uh, during the case with the iPhone and, uh, the FBI or the FBI to apple asked him for data on the iPhone. Yeah. And apple said, we just can't, we don't have access to that data. This is exactly what the public clouds want to be able to do, turn to the government and tell them we just don't have access to our customer's data. >>Wow. That's gonna put a lot of pressure. So talk about the surface area of attacks. How has that changed? What do you guys, what's your role in that obviously this no perimeter anymore in the cloud, the security is dead. That's a huge issue. >>Yeah, of course. So, so I guess what we fit into this, as I mentioned, all the clouds added, uh, this technology, uh, what we fit in is very similar to what VMware did for virtualization, right? Virtualization was this extremely powerful technology that everybody knew was going to change the world. You wouldn't have the public cloud without virtualization. Uh, the problem was, it was very difficult to use very, very low level because it was a hardware technology. And then every, uh, vendor built a different technology. This is exactly the case now with confidential computing, every cloud added, uh, uh, a hardware level technology to go support this. But one it's very low level. It's very, very difficult to use. And every cloud added the different technology, which makes it even harder for organizations to go use. We added a softer stack exactly like VE VMware did for virtualization to make it super simple, to use and ubiquitous across the different clouds. >>How did you come up with the idea? What did this all come from? Were you scratching and inch and security? Did you have one of those things like, Hey, I can solve this problem. What's the origination story? Where did this all start? >>Yeah, it's actually, so I I've been in security for, you know, over 20 years now. Um, and I kept running into that same problem. Right. I, I was in the, I was actually in, um, unit 8,200, which is the really equivalent of the NSA. Uh, I was then, uh, in the private sector and I was, uh, a bunch of companies open DNS, Cisco, and, and I kept running into that same issue. And when you kind of peeled the layers of the onion of what the core security problem was, it always came back to how do you protect data while it's being used, which is essentially the core, the same sort of core problem, the confidential computing solves. Um, but there was never a solution. There was never a way to solve this. Uh, and, uh, above four years ago, my co-founder, uh, just finished his PhD at Stanford and he ran into, there's finally a way to do this. Finally, the CPU vendors have built something in, uh, the clouds are going to adopt this. This is going to allow you to one finally solve that huge problem that always existed. And, and number two, this allows you to kind of rearchitect security the right way, uh, because this has always been the core problem that people try to somehow mitigate never having a good solution. >>It's like putting a rapper around it, an envelope and saying secure. >>Exactly. So was this >>PhD working at Stanford in parallel to industry momentum at the same time Sarah Diply? Or was it kind of like, was he working with partners already in his program? >>Yeah, so he just, uh, this was something was happening and this is, uh, this has been going on for, well over a decade. It, it actually funny enough, it started with the, uh, with cell phones. I dunno if you ever thought, you know, what happens if you lose your phone, you have the biometric data, right? Your fingerprint or your face ID. Can somebody get that information out the phone if you lose it? And what the, the phone vendors have done is basically put techn, confidential computing technology to make sure that even if somebody gets physical access to your device, they're not going to be able to get access to that data. And what the, the evolution was is that the Intel AMD, the CPU vendors have realized, wait, this is a really, really great idea. Yeah, you should put it on the server side as well. >>And that started with Intel in 2015. So this has been an evolution, uh, and now essentially every, every one of the CPU vendors is now supporting this. You have Intel and R and AMD and video just announced, uh, their confidential, uh, uh, GPU solution, uh, all the clouds and I've adopted this. Uh, so my, my co-founder when he ran into this, this was as this was, uh, starting to, to happen. He got extremely excited, but he has noticed a big problem of everyone is coming up with different solutions. We're gonna need to build a layer, a software layer on top of this, uh, to, so >>You have, you have to get this to be de facto >>Exactly standard. >>Oh, how's that going? So Amazon's a partner, >>Amazon's a partner. Aw. Uh, Azure is a partner. Uh, we can run on top of essentially any, any one of the clouds out there >>They're enabling you to do that. Cuz they're they want to buy into security. >>Exactly. They want the benefit. Exactly. They want tell their customers, you can move anything to the cloud because we don't have any access to your data. This helps us, them essentially sell cloud >>A couple things around. Um, I want to ask about performance, but before I get to that, yep. It seems like this whole protective data thing has always been like a database thing. Not so much low level re resetting, if you will, it's almost a reset. It's not like just protect your data in the database. >>Oh yeah. Yes. It's different. Yes, exactly. It's funny because uh, you bring sort of the right exact right point. Really. You kind of think about where data can reside. There're essentially three locations. There's data at rest, which is essentially data in a database or file system. There's data in transit, which is data on the, you know, in the network. Yep. Uh, and then there's data use and the data and use piece is essentially when an application needs to process data, it has to decry it and load it completely in the clear, in memory in order to process it. Got it. And at that point, the data is not decade. This is why it's so hard for organizations to move data to the cloud or to run data and geographies where they're not, you know, they don't trust the government or don't trust the, the admins. >>So injecting some malware or vulnerability or attack in the workload while it's running is just another attack, vector. >>Exactly. Or just, or just stealing the data. If you, if you have access to the infrastructure, if you can run code, you can then just basically look in the memory and get all the data out of it. And, and to some extent, even the, the, the encryption keys you use for data, rest those keys, leaving the clear in memory. So even that hasn't been completely solved. Got it. Now that you have this component, you can finally solve, you know, solved our problem and protect the data regardless of where it resides. >>All right. So I gotta a performance question cause remember going, even back to the earlier encryption. Yeah. There's always overhead penalty. Yes. But cloud's a beautiful thing you can spend compute up and you're talking about now, the, the CPU vendors are kind of getting involved. >>Yes. Talk >>About the security, uh, how you mitigate that. Is it an issue? No issue. Why? Yeah, >>Actually, actually, uh, you talk about performance because I think this is a really, really great point. What's nice about this. Uh, and uh, this is why the, the, the, the sort of the benefit of the CPU vendors doing this performance has always essentially had two underlying issues. One is performance, as you mentioned. And the other one is ease of use. This is, this is sort of the, the piece we add to that. We make it super simple to use when you can take essentially any workload and run it securely on top of any, any one of these solutions and the performing thing, the, the heavy lifting is done by the hardware vendors themselves, which means there's a another, uh, chip next to the CPU that does all the heavy lifting encryption, which is very similar. I don't know if you remember the, uh, um, uh, the TLS, you know, the SL acceleration cards. Yeah. This was exactly the same thing. It was this, you know, chip outside the CPU. So it's not, uh, in the sort of the critical path that does all the heavy lifting. And this is what allowed, uh, TLS or HTB TTP HTTPS to become the default where you now protect every website. And this is sort of when security becomes transparent and there's no performance impact, like why, why would you use it for everything? >>It becomes a no brainer unless there's legacy baggage, right. >>In >>Dogma around use this approach, culture issue, or technical, right. Unwind those two, two things. So what's your a take on that? What's your react. Culture's easy. Just like, I think that's easy to fix. We want better security get on board or see you later. Exactly. Technical architecture could be an inhibitor. How do you see that is the blocker? How do you unwind that? How do you get that to >>Reset? So it's exactly the value that we bring to the table. We build a software stack to make it super simple. You don't need to, you know, you don't need to rewrite the application. You don't need to recompile, it's essentially security becoming a part of the infrastructure. You essentially have security as just a piece of the infrastructure that makes it super simple to get a no brainer. Yeah, exactly. The way, you know, TLS was it's. Yeah. We're a software vendor. >>All right. So how do I see it integrating with Amazon? It's gonna get into the chip level. They're enabling hooks for you. Exactly. That's how it works. >>So there's essentially the, uh, all the cloud vendors have enabled these technologies for Amazon it's yeah. It's essentially this hardware capability. We, we have access to it and we're a software layer on top of it to make it simple, similar to, again, what M VMware did for virtualization and what, um, some extent, this is what, uh, Microsoft has done for the CPU, what windows is right. Every time there's a new, really amazing hardware, hardware, uh, feature. You need a software sec on top of it to make it simple use. >>What's great about the cloud is, is that you kind of have that whole operating system mindset now being democratized across everything. Right. I mean, it's a systems thinking in software, right. With all the cap X of the cloud. Yes. And you're decoupled from it and you're riding on top of >>It. Exactly. >>It's an amazing opportunity as a co-founder or just if, if there was no cloud, how hard were this to be the two <laugh>, I mean, like almost impossible. Yep. So very cool. All right. Take a minute to explain what you guys are working on. How big is the company, what you guys are doing right now, you're hiring, you're looking for people funding, give a, give some, uh, give, give some, give a plug to the company. >>Sure. So, uh, we're, uh, we're a series B company, uh, lost, uh, raised 30 million from insight in the last round. Um, we're, uh, we're about 80 people right now. We're growing extremely aggressively. Um, mostly on the salsa and the cells go to market side just because of the demand that we're seeing in the market, but we're also growing on the engineering side. So again, if, uh, we're always happy to talk to >>Side about Palo Alto probably have remote teams, >>Uh, we're based in Palo Alto. So the, the, the, the sort of headquarters and most of the team is in Palo Alto, but yeah, we're very open to remote. We have now engineers in all across the us, and also outside the us as well, just because COVID made it sort of very easy to, to do >>That. Right. I mean, you got a good product, great idea, and a great opportunity. I mean, this is, you know, Dave LAN and I had at a VM world, I think it was like 2013. Now we're dating ourselves. <laugh> this is when we started covering AWS. Yep. He asked pat Gelsinger, it might have been 2015. Cause the CEO of VMware at the time. Yeah. Is security a Doover. Yep. And he's like, absolutely. And this is now happening. This is a security Mulligan, a redo over, this is what we need. Right. >>Exactly. And this is why, so, uh, we're part of a, uh, something called the confidential computing consortium, which essentially has all the large, all the, you know, the cloud vendors, the CPU vendors, VMware is a part of this as well. Basically the, this is sort of too big of a shift for these large organizations to ignore the, and uh, yeah. VMware is definitely going to have a, a part of >>This. Awesome. Well, congratulations. You guys are gonna probably be really huge or get bought out pretty quickly. <laugh> we're I think >>This, this is a huge, this is just a huge opportunity. We can become the VMware of security. So I think this is, you know, I'm hoping to stay independent. >>Yeah. Congratulations on a great venture. Love the idea. And again, every application should run this way. It's no, uh, if you can get that security built in yep. You gotta shield. Right. You wrap it up, probe it anywhere exactly made the best cloud >>Win. Exactly. Right. Exactly. >>And that's, what's gonna happen. That's >>That's >>Why I love the Silicon angle of Amazon Silicon play. Yes. As that Silicon gets better. >>Yes. >>It only helps this, these kinds of use cases. Right? >>Exactly. We, we, again, we, we leverage, we leverage these technologies and to some extent, this is, this is actually part of the, the value we talk to customers about, because this is sort of the cutting edge of technology and security. And this keeps evolving. As, as I mentioned in video, just announced their confidential GPS. We provide this layer on top of it where organizations don't have to go and kind of rebuild every application as this evolves and just use our people >>Who know me in the cube know I'm a Hawk when it comes to cybersecurity. I think the red line is people operating below the red line. And, and why should companies have to provision their own militia? Exactly. This is essentially the shield they can put up. Exactly. And not rely on the government who just know what they're doing. Exactly. >>So get exactly security should be easy. Should be, should be us everywhere. I >>Should you get a lot of banking customers, FinTech customers coming on board. Exactly. Right. Outta the gate. Yeah. Thanks for coming on the queue. Yeah. Appreciate. Thank you. Live coverage here. San Francisco, California. I'm John farrier with the cube. We'll be right back with more after this short break.

>>Hello. Welcome back to the cubes coverage here live in San Francisco, California. I'm John furrier, host of the cubes cube coverage of AWS summit 2022 here in San Francisco, where all the developers are the bay air at Silicon valley. And of course, eights summit in New York city is coming up in this summer. We'll be there as well. SF and NYC cube coverage. Look for us, of course, reinforcing Boston and re Mars with the whole robotics AI thing, all coming together. Lots of coverage. Stay with us. Say we've got a great guest from Deibel VC. John Skoda, founding partner, entrepreneurial venture is a venture firm. Your next act, welcome to the cube. Good to see you. >>Good to see you, Matt. I feel like it's been forever since we've been able to do something in person. Well, >>I'm glad you're here because we run into each other all the time. We've known each other for over a decade. Um, >>It's been at least 10 years, at >>Least 10 years more, and we don't wanna actually go back as freeze back the old school web 1.0 days. But anyway, we're in web three now. So we'll get to that in >>It's a little bit of a throwback to the path though, in my opinion, >>It's all the same. It's all distributed computing and software. We ran each other in Cuban. You're investing in a lot of tech startup founders. Okay. This next level, next gen entrepreneurs have a new makeup and it's software. It's hardcore tech in some cases, not hardcore tech, but using software, take old something old and make it better new, faster. So tell us about decibel. What's the firm. I know you're the founder, uh, which is cool. What's going on. Explain >>What you're doing. I mean, you remember I'm a recovering entrepreneur, right? So of course I, I, >>No, you're never recovering. You're always entrepreneur >>Always, but we are also always recovering. So I, um, sort of my was company when I was 24, if you remember before there was Facebook and friends, there was instant messaging. People were using that product at work every day, they were creating a security vulnerability between their network and the outside world. So I plugged that hole and built an instant messaging firewall. It was my first company. The company was called IM logic and we were required by Symantec. Uh, then spent 12 years investing in the next generation of software companies, uh, early investor in open source companies and cloud companies and spent a really wonderful 12 years, uh, at a firm called NEA. So I, I feel like my whole life I've been either starting enterprise software companies or helping founders start enterprise software C is, and I'll tell you, there's never been a better time than right now to start an enterprise software company. >>So, uh, the passion for starting a new firm was really a recognition that founders today that are starting an enterprise software company, they, they tend to be, as you said, a more technical founder, right? Usually it's a software engineer or builder. Uh, they are building products that are serving a slightly different market than what we've traditionally seen in enterprise software. Right? I think traditionally we've seen it buyers or CIOs that have agendas and strategies, which, you know, purchase software that is traditionally bought and sold tops down. But you know, today I think the most successful enterprise software companies are the ones that are built more bottoms up and have more technical early adopters. And generally speaking, they're free to use. They're free to try. They're very commonly community. So source or open source companies where you have a large technical cook community that's supporting them. So there's a, there's kind of a new normal now I think in great enterprise software. And it starts with great technical founders with great products and great bottoms of motions. And I think there's no better place to, uh, service those people than in the cloud and uh, in, in your community. >>Well, first of all, congratulations, and by the way, you got a great pedigree and great grow, super smart admire of your work and your, and, and your founding, but let's face it. Enterprise is hot because digital transformation is all companies there's no, I mean, consumer is enterprise now everything is what was once a niche. No, I won't say niche category, but you know, not for the faint of heart, you, you know, investors, >>You know, it's so funny that you say that enterprise is hot because you, and I feel that way now. But remember, like right now, there's also a giant tech and VC conference in Miami <laugh> and it's covering cryptocurrencies and FCS and web three. So I think beauty is definitely in the eye of the beholder <laugh> but no, I, I will tell you, >>Ts is one big enterprise, cuz you gotta have imutability you got performance issues. You have, I IOPS issues. Well, >>And, and I think all of us here that are, uh, may maybe students of history and have been involved in open source in the cloud would say that we're, you know, much of what we're doing is, uh, the predecessors of the web web three movement. And many of us I think are contributors to the web three. >>The hype is definitely one, three. You >>Yeah, but, >>But you know, for >>Sure. Yeah, no, but now you're taking us further east to Miami. So, uh, you know, look, I think, I, I think, um, what is unquestioned with the case now? And maybe it's, it's more obvious the more time you spend in this world is this is the fastest growing part of enterprise software. And if you include cloud infrastructure and caught infrastructure spend, you know, it is by many measures over, uh, 500 billion in growing, you know, 20 to 30% a year. So it it's a, it's a just incredibly fast, >>Well, let's getting, let's get into some of the cultural and the, the shifts that are happening, cuz again, you, you have the luxury of being in enterprise when it was hard, it's getting easier and more cooler. I get at it and more relevant <laugh> but there's also the hype of like the web three, for instance, but you know, for, uh, um, um, the CEO snowflake, okay. Has wrote a book and Dave Valenti and I were talking about it and uh, Frank Luman has says, there's no playbooks. We always ask the CEOs, what's your playbook. And he's like, there's no playbook, situational awareness, always Trump's playbooks. So in the enterprise playbook, oh, higher, a direct sales force and SAS kind of crushed that now SAS is being redefined, right. So what is SAS? Is snowflake a SaaS or is that a platform? So again, new unit economics are emerging, whole new situation, you got web three. So to me there's a cultural shift, the young entrepreneurs, the, uh, user experience, they look at Facebook and say, ah, you know, they own all my data. And you know, we know that that cliche, um, they, you know, the product. So as this next gen, the gen Z and the millennials come in and our customers and the founders, they're looking at things a little bit differently and the Tech's better. >>Yeah. I mean, I mean, I think we can, we can see a lot of commonalities across all successful startups and the overall adoption of technology. Uh, and, and I would tell you, this is all one big, giant revolution. I call it the user driven revolution, right? It's the rise of the user. And you might say product like growth is currently the hottest trend in enterprise software. It's actually user like growth, right. They're one and the same. So sometimes people think the product, uh, is what is driving. >>You just pull the >>Product through. Exactly, exactly. And so that's that I, that I think is really this revolution that you see and it, and it does extend into things like crypto or currencies and web three and, you know, sort of like the control that is taken back by the user. Um, but you know, many would say that, that the origins of this movement maybe started with open source where users were contributors, you know, contributors were users and looking back decades and seeing how, how it fast forward to today. I think that's really the trend that we're all writing and it's enabling these end users. These end users in our world are developers, data engineers, cybersecurity practitioners, right. They're really the users. And they're really the, the beneficiaries and the most, you know, kind of valued people in this. >>I wanna come back to the data engineers in a second, but I wanna make a comment and get your reaction to, I have a, I'm a gen Xer technically. So for not a boomer, but I have some boomer friends who are a little bit older than me who have, you know, experienced the sixties. And I've been saying on the cube for probably about eight years now that we are gonna hit a digital hippie revolution, meaning a rebellion against the sixties was rebellion against the fifties and the man and, you know, summer of love. That was a cultural differentiation from the other one other group, the predecessors. So we're kind of having that digital moment now where it's like, Hey boomers, Hey people, we're not gonna do that anymore. We hate how you organize shit. >>Right. But isn't this just technology. I mean, isn't it, isn't it like there used to be the old adage, like, you know, you would never get fired for buying IBM, but now it's like, you obviously probably would get fired if you bought IBM. And I mean, it, it it's just like the, the, I think >>During the mainframe days, those renegades were breaking into Stanford, starting the home brew club. So what I'm trying to get at is that, do you see the young cultural revolution also, culturally, just, this is my identity NFTs to me speak volumes about my, I wanna associate with NFTs, not single sign. >>Absolutely. And, and I think like, I think you're hitting on something, which is like this convergence of, of, you know, societal trends with technology trends and how that manifests in our world is yes. I think like there is unquestionably almost a religion yeah. Around the way in which a product is built. Right. And we can use open source, one example of that religion. Some people will say, look, I'll just never try a product in the cloud if it's not open source. Yeah. I think cloud, native's another example of that, right? It's either, it's, you know, it either is cloud native or it's not. And I think a lot of people will look at a product and say, look, you know, you were not designed in the cloud era. Therefore I just won't try. I you, and sometimes, um, like it or not, it's a religious decision, right? Yeah. It's some, it's something that people just believe to be true almost without, uh, necessarily caring >>About I data, data drives all decision making. Let me ask you this next question. As a VC. Now you look at pitch, well, you've been a VC for many years, but you also have the founder entrepreneurial mindset, but you can empathize with the founders. You know, hustle is a big part of the, that first founder check, right? You gotta convince someone to part with their ch their money and the first money in which you do a lot of is about believing in the person. So faking it till you make it is hard. Now you, the data's there, you either have it cloud native, you either have the adaption or traction. So honesty is a big part of that pitch. You can't think, oh, >>AB absolutely. You know, there used to be this concept of like the persona of an entrepreneur, right. And the persona of the entrepreneur would be, you know, somebody who was a great salesperson or somebody who tell a great story. And I still think that that's important, right. It still is a human need for people to believe in narratives and stories. Yeah. But having said that you're right. The proof is in the pudding, right. At some point you click download and you try the product and does it, is it gonna, it's gonna do, or it doesn't, or it either stands out to the load test or it doesn't. And so I, I feel like in this new economy that we live in really, it's a shift from maybe the storytellers and the creators to, to the builders, right. The people that know how to build great product. And in some ways the people that can build great product stand out for on the crowd. And they're the ones that can build communities around their products. And, you know, in some ways can, um, you know, kind of own more of the narrative because their products exactly >>The volume back to the user led >>Growth. Exactly. And it's the religion of, I just love your product. Right. And I, I, I, um, Doug song is the founder of Joe security used to say, Hey, like, you know, the, the really like today's world of like consumption based software, like the user is only gonna give you 90 seconds to figure out whether or not you're a company that's easy to do business with. Right. And so you can say, and do all the things that you want about how easy you are to work with. But if the product isn't easy to install, if it's not easy to try, if it's, if the, you know, it's gotta speak >>To the, to the user. But let me ask you a question for the people watching, who are maybe entrepreneurial entre entrepreneurs, um, masterclass here is in session. So I have to ask you, do you prefer, um, an entrepreneur come in and say, look at John. Here's where I'm at. Okay. First of all, storytelling's fine. Whether you're an extrovert or introvert, have your style, sell the story in a way that's authentic, but do you, what do you prefer? Just say, here's where I'm at. Look, I have an idea. Here's my traction. I think here's my MVP prototype. I need help. Or do you wanna just see more stats? What's the, what's the preferred way that you like to see entrepreneurs come in and engage? >>There's tons of different styles, man. I think the single most important thing that every founder should know is that we, we don't invest in what things are today. We invest in what we think something will become. Right. And I think that's why we all get up in the morning and try to build something different, right? It's that we see the world a different way. We want it to be a different way, and we wanna work every single moment of the day to try to make bad vision of reality. So I think the more that you can show people where you want to be, the more likely somebody is gonna align with your vision and, and want to invest in you wanna be along for the ride. So I, I wholeheartedly believe in showing off what you got today, because eventually we all get down to like, where are we and what are we gonna do together? But, um, no, I, you gotta show the path. I think the single most important thing for any founder and VC relationship is that they have the same vision. Uh, if you have the same vision, you can, you can get through bumps in the road, you can get through short term spills. You can all sorts of things in the middle. The journey can happen. Yeah. But it doesn't matter as much. If you share the long term vision, >>Don't flake out and, and be fashionable with the, the latest trends. Cause it's over before you even get >>There. Exactly. I think many people that, that do what we do for a living will say, you know, ultimately the future is relatively easy to predict, but it's the timing that's impossible to predict. So you, you know, you sort of have to balance the, you know, we, we, we know that the world is going this way and therefore we're gonna invest a lot of money to try to make this a reality. Uh, but sometimes it happens in six months. Sometimes it takes six years. Sometimes it takes 16 years. Uh, >>What's the hottest thing in enterprise that you see the biggest wave that people should pay attention to that you're looking at right now with Desel partners, Tebel dot your site. What's the big wave. What's your big >>Wave. There, there's three big trends that we invest in. And they're the, they're the only things we do day in, day out. One is the explosion and open source software. So I think many people think that all software is unquestionably moving to an open source model in some form or another yeah. Tons of reasons to debate whether or not that is gonna happen on AMWA timeline >>Happening forever. >>But, uh, it is, it is accelerating faster than we've ever seen. So I, I think it's, it's one big, massive wave that we continue to ride. Um, second is the rise of data engineering. Uh, I think data engineering is in and of itself now a category of software. It's not just that we store data. It's now we move data and we develop applications. And, uh, I think data is in and of itself as big of a market as any of the other markets that we invest in. Uh, and finally, it's the gift that keeps on giving. I've spent my entire career in it. We still feel that security is a market that is underinvested. It is, it continues to be the place where people need to continue to invest and spend more, more. Yeah. Uh, and those are the three major trends that we >>Run and security, you think we all need a dessert do over, right? I mean, do we need a do over in security or is what's the core problem? I, >>I, I keep using this word underinvested because I think it's the right way to think about the problem. I think if you, I think people generally speaking, look at cybersecurity as an add-on. Yeah. But if you think about it, the whole economy is moving online. And so in, in some ways like security is core to protecting the digital economy. And so it's, it shouldn't be an afterthought, right? It should be core to what everyone is doing. And that's why I think relat to the trillions of dollars that are at stake, uh, I believe the market size for cybersecurity is around 150 billion and it still is a fraction of what >>We're, what we're national security even boom is booming now. So you get the convergence of national security, geopolitics, internet digital that's >>Right. You mean arguably, right. Arguably again, it's the area of the world that people should be spending more time and more money given what to stake. >>I love your thesis. I gotta outta say, I gotta love your firm. Love what you're doing. We're big supporters of your mission. Congratulations on your entrepreneurial venture. And, uh, we'll be, we'll be talking we'll maybe see a Coon. Uh, absolutely certainly EU maybe even north Americans in Detroit this year. >>Huge fan of what you guys are doing here. Thank you so much for helping me on the >>Show. Guess a bell V see Johnson here on the cube. Check him out. Founder for founders here on the cube, more coverage from San Francisco, California. After this short break, stay with us.

(bright music) >> Okay, welcome back everyone. It's theCUBE's coverage here in San Francisco, California. We're live on the show floor of AWS Summit 2022. I'm John Furrier, your host of theCUBE. And remember AWS Summit in New York city coming up this summer. We'll be there as well. And of course, re:Invent at the end of the year for all theCUBE coverage on cloud computing and AWS. The two great guests here from the APN, Global APN, Serge Shevchenko and Jeff Grimes Partner Leader. Jeff and Serge is doing partnerships. Global APN >> AWS Global Startup Program. >> Okay, say that again. >> AWS Global Startup Program. >> That's the official name. >> I love it >> Too long for me. Thanks for coming on. >> Yeah, of course. >> Yeah, appreciate it. >> Tell us about what's going on with you guys? How was you guys organized? You guys, we're obviously we're in San Francisco bay area, Silicon Valley, zillions of startups here. New York has got another one we're going to be at. Tons of startups, a lot of them getting funded, big growth in cloud, big growth in data, security, hot in all sectors. >> Jeff: Absolutely. >> So maybe we could just start with the global startup program. It's essentially a white glove service that we provide to startups that are built on AWS. And the intention there is to help identify use cases that are being built on top of AWS. And for these startups, we want to provide white glove support in co building products together, co-marketing and co-selling. Essentially, the use cases that our customers need solved that either they don't want to build themselves or perhaps more innovative. So the AWS Global Startup Program provides white glove support, dedicated headcount for each one of those pillars. And within our program, we've also provided incentives, programs, go to market activities like the AWS Startup Showcase that we've built for these startups. >> Yeah, by the way, awsstartups.com is the URL. Check it out. Okay, so your partnerships are key. Jeff, what's your role? >> So I'm responsible for leading the overall effort for the AWS Global Startup Program. So I've got a team of partner managers that are located throughout the US managing a few hundred startup ISVs right now. >> Yeah, you got a lot. >> We've got a lot. There's a lot. >> I got to ask a tough question. I'm a startup founder. I got a team. I just got my series A. We're grown and I'm trying to hire people. I'm super busy. What's in it for me? What do you guys bring to the table? I love the white glove service but translate that. What's in it for me? What do I get out of it? What's the story? >> That's a good question. Focus, I think. >> Jeff: Yeah. >> Because we get to see a lot of partners building their businesses on AWS. So from our perspective, helping these partners focus on what do we truly need to build by working backwards from customer feedback. How do we effectively go to market? Because we've seen startups do various things through trial and error and also just messaging. Because oftentimes partners or rather startups try to boil the ocean with many different use cases. So we really help them sort of laser focus on what are you really good at and how can we bring that to the customer as quickly as possible? >> Yeah, it's truly about helping that founder accelerate the growth of their company. And there's a lot that you can do with AWS but focus is truly the key word there because they're going to be able to find their little piece of real estate and absolutely deliver incredible outcomes for our customers and then they can start their growth curve there. >> What are some of the coolest things you've seen with the APN that you can share publicly? I know you got a lot going on there, a lot of confidentiality, but we're here, a lot of great partners on the floor here. I'm glad we're back at events, a lot of stuff going on, digitally with virtual stuff and hybrid. What are some of the cool things you guys have seen in the APN that you can point to? >> Yeah, absolutely. I can point to few, you can take them. So I think what's been fun over the years for me personally, I came from a startup, ran sales at an early stage startup and I went through the whole thing. So I have a deep appreciation for what these guys are going through. And what's been interesting to see for me is taking some of these early stage guys, watching them progress, go public, get acquired, and see that big day. And being able to point to very specific items that we help them to get to that point. And it's just a really fun journey to watch. >> Yeah, and part of the reason why I really love working at the AWS Global Startup Program is working with passionate founders. I just met with a founder today, he's going to build a very big business one day and watching them grow through these stages and supporting that growth, I like to think of our program as a catalyst for enterprise sort of scale. And through that we provide visibility, credibility and growth opportunities. >> A lot of partners too, what I found, talking to staff founders is when they have that milestone, they worked so hard for it. whether it's a B round, C round, or public or get bought. Then they take a deep breath and they look back at, wow what a journey it's been. So it's kind of emotional for sure, but still it's a grind. When you get funding, it's still day one. You don't stop. It's no celebrate, you got a big round or valuation. You still got to execute. >> And look it's hypercompetitive and it's brutally difficult. And our job is to try to make that a little less difficult and navigate those waters where everyone's going after similar things. >> Yeah, and I think as a group element too. I observe that startups that I meet through the APN has been interesting because they feel part of AWS. >> Serge: Totally. >> As a group of community, as a vibe there. I know they're hustling. They're trying to make things happen. But at the same time, Amazon throws a huge halo effect. That's a huge factor. You guys are the number one cloud in the business. The growth and every sector is booming. And if you're a startup, you don't have that luxury yet. And look at companies like Snowflake that built on top of AWS. People are winning by building on AWS. >> Our program really validates their technology first. So we have what's called a foundation's technical review that we put all of our startups through before we go to market. So that when enterprise customers are looking at startup technology, they know that it's already been vetted. And to take that a step further and help these partners differentiate, we use programs like the competency programs, the DevOps competency, the security competency which continues to help provide a platform for these startups, help them differentiate, and also there's go to market benefits that are associated with that. >> So let me ask the question that's probably on everyone's mind who's watching us. Actually, I asked this a lot. There's a lot of companies startups out there. Who makes the cut? Is there a criteria? God, that's not like it's sports team or anything. >> Sure. >> There's activate program, which is like there's hundreds of thousands of startups out there. Not everyone is at the APN. >> Serge: Correct. >> So ISVs, again, that's a whole nother. That's a more mature partner that might have huge market cap or growth. How do you guys focus? How do you guys focus? >> Serge: Good question. >> A thousand flowers blooming all the time. Is there a new way you guys are looking at it? I know there's been some talk about restructure or new focus. What's the focus? >> It's definitely not an easy task by any means but I recently took over this role and we're really trying to establish focus areas. So obviously a lot of the ISVs that we look after are infrastructure ISVs. That's what we do and so we have very specific pods that look after different type of partners. So we've got a security pod, we've got a DevOps pod, we've got core infrastructure, et cetera. And really we're trying to find these ISVs that can solve really interesting AWS customer challenges. >> Do you guys have a deliberate focus on these pillars? So one, infrastructure. >> Security, DevOps and data and analytics and then line of business. >> Line of business, like web marketing solutions. (group chattering) >> Yeah, exactly. >> So solutions there. >> Yeah. More solutions and the other ones are like hardcore. So infrastructure as well like storage, backup, ransomware, kind of stuff. >> Storage, networking. >> Okay, yeah, the classic. >> Database, et cetera. >> And so there's teams on each pillar. >> Yep. So I think what's fascinating for the startups that we cover is that they truly have support from a build market sell perspective. So you've got someone who's technical to really help them get the technology figured out, someone to help them get the marketing message dialed and spread, and then someone to actually do the co-sell day to day activities to help them get in front of customers. >> Probably the number one request that we always ask for Amazon is can we wish that SOC report, oh download it on the console, which we use all the time. >> Exactly. >> But security's a big deal. SREs are evolve in that role of DevOps is taking on DevSecOps. I could see a lot of customers having that need for a relationship to move things faster. Do you guys provide like escalation or is that a part of a service or not part of? >> So the partner development manager can be an escalation point, absolutely. Think of them as an extension of your business inside of AWS. >> Great and you guys, how is that partner managers measured? >> On those three pillars. >> Got it, okay. >> Are we building valuable use cases? So product development. Go to market, so go to market activities. Think blog posts, webinars, case studies, so on and so forth. And then co-sell. Not only are we helping these partners win their current opportunities that they are sourcing, but can we also help them source net new deals? >> Jeff: Yeah. >> That's very important. Top ask from the partners is get me in front of customers. Not an easy task, but that's a huge goal of ours to help them grow their top line. >> In fact, we have some interviews here on theCUBE earlier talking about that dynamic of how enterprise customers are buying. And it's interesting, a lot more POCs. I have one partner here that you guys work with on observability. They got a huge POC with Capital One and the enterprises are engaging the startups and bringing them in. So the combination of open source software, enterprises are leaning into that hard and bringing young growing startups in. So I could see that as a huge service that you guys can bring people in. >> Right and they're bringing massively differentiated technology to the table. The challenge is they just might not have the brand recognition that the big guys have. And so that's our job is how do you get that great tech in front of the right situations. >> So my next question is about the show here and then we'll talk globally. So here in San Francisco, Silicon Valley, bay area, San Francisco bay area, a lot of startups, a lot of VCs, a lot of action. So probably a big marker for you guys. So what's exciting here in SF? And then outside of SF, you guys have a global program. You see any trends that are geography-based or is it areas more mature? There's certain regions that are better. And I just interviewed a company here that's doing AWS Edge really well. It's interesting that the partners are filling a lot of holes and gaps in the opportunities with AWS. So what's exciting here, and then what's the global perspective? >> Yeah, totally. So obviously, a ton of partners from the bay area that we support, but we're seeing a lot of really interesting technology coming out of EMEA specifically. And making a lot of noise here in the United States, which is great. And so we definitely have that global presence and starting to see super differentiated technology come out of those regions. >> Yeah, especially Tel Aviv. >> Yeah. >> EMEA real quick before you get into surge. It's interesting. The VC market in Europe is hot. They've got a lot of unicorns coming in. We've seen a lot of companies coming in. They're kind of rattling their own cage right now. Hey, look at us. Let's see if they crash, but we don't see that happening. I mean, people have been predicting a crash now in the startup ecosystem for at least a year. It's not crashing. In fact, funding's up. >> The pandemic was hard on a lot of startups for sure. >> Jeff: Yeah. >> But what we've seen is many of these startups, as quickly as they can grow, they can also pivot as well. And so I've actually seen many of our startups grow through the pandemic because their use cases are helping customers either save money, become more operationally efficient, and provide value to leadership teams that need more visibility into their infrastructure during a pandemic. >> It's an interesting point. I talked to Andy Jassy and Adam Selipsky both say the same thing during the pandemic. Necessity is the mother of all invention. And startups can move fast. So with that, you guys are there to assist. If I'm a startup and I got to pivot, 'cause remember iterate and pivot, iterate and pivot so you get your economics. That's the playbook of the ventures and the models. >> Yeah, exactly. >> How do you guys help me do that? Give an example, walk me through. Pretend me I'm a startup. Hey, I am on the cloud. Oh my God, pandemic. They need video conferencing. Hey CUBE, what do I need? Serge, what do I do? >> That's a good question. First thing is just listen. I think what we have to do is a really good job of listening to the partner. What are their needs? What is their problem statement and where do they want to go at the end of the day? And oftentimes because we've worked with so many successful startups that have come out of our program, we of either through intuition or a playbook determine what is going to be the best path forward and how do we get these partners to stop focusing on things that will eventually just be a waste of time and or not provide or bring any fruit to the table, which essentially revenue. >> Well, we love startups here in theCUBE because one, they have good stories, they're on cutting edge, always pushing the envelope, and they're kind of disrupting someone else. And so they usually have an opinion they don't mind sharing on camera. So love talking to startups. We love working with you guys on our Startup Showcase, awsstartups.com. Check out awsstartups.com and check out the showcases. Final word, I'll give you guys the last word. What's the bottom line, bumper sticker for the global APN program? Summarize the opportunity for startups, what you guys bring to the table and we'll close it out. Jeff, we'll start with you. >> Totally, yeah. I think the AWS Global Startup Program's here to help companies truly accelerate their business, full stop. And that's what we're here for. >> I love it. It's a good way to put it. >> Ditto? >> Yeah. >> All right. Serge, Jeff, thanks for coming on. >> Thanks John. >> Great to see you. Love working with you guys. Hey, startups need help and the growing and huge market opportunities, the shift cloud scale, data engineering, security, infrastructure, all the markets are exploding in growth because of the digital transformation of realities here, open source and cloud. All making it happen here in theCUBE in San Francisco, California. I'm John Furrier your host. Thanks for watching. >> Let's go, John. (soft music)