(gentle upbeat music) >> Announcer: theCUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies. Creating technologies that drive human progress. (bright upbeat music) >> We're back in Barcelona at the Fira. My name is Dave Vellante. I'm here with David Nicholson. We're live at MWC23, day four of the coverage. The show is still rocking. You walk the floor, it's jamming. People are lined up to get in the copter, in the right. It's amazing. Planes, trains, automobiles, digitization of analog businesses. We're going to talk private wireless here with Dell. Sarvesh Sharma, the Global Director for Edge and Private Mobility Solutions practice at Dell. And John McCready is a Senior Director for 5G Solutions and product management at Dell Technologies. Guys, good to see you. >> Likewise, likewise. >> Good to see you too. >> Private wireless. It's the buzz of the show. Everybody's talking about it. What's Dell's point of view on that? >> So Dell is, obviously, interested entering the private wireless game, as it's a good part of the overall enterprise IT space. As you move more and more into the different things. What we announced here, is sort of our initial partnerships with some key players like Airspan and expedo and AlphaNet. Players that are important in the space. Dell's going to provide an overall system integration solution wrap along with our Edge BU as well. And we think that we can bring really good solutions to our enterprise customers. >> Okay, I got to ask you about AlphaNet. So HPE pulled a little judo move they waited till you announced your partnership and then they bought the company. What, you know, what's your opinion on that? You going to, you going to dump AlphaNet, you're going to keep 'em? >> No. >> We're open Ecosystem. >> Yeah, it's an open ecosystem. We announce these are our initial partners, you know we're going to announce additional partners that was always the case. You know, there's a lot of good players in this space that bring different pros and cons. We got to be able to match the solution requirements of all our customers. And so we'll continue to partner with them and with others. >> Good, good answer, I like that. So some of these solutions are sort of out of the box, others require more integration. Can you talk about your, the spectrum of your portfolio? >> So I'm glad you brought up the integration part, right? I mean, if you look at private wireless, private mobility it is not a sell by itself. At the end of the day what the enterprise wants is not just private mobility. They're looking for an outcome. Which means from an integration perspective, you need somebody who can integrate the infrastructure stack. But that's not enough. You need somebody who can bring in the application stack to play and integrate that application stack with the enterprises IT OT. And that's not enough. You need somebody to put those together. And Dell is ideally suited to do all of this, right? We have strong partners that can bring the infrastructure stack to play. We have a proven track record of managing the IT and the enterprise stack. So we are very excited to say, "Hey, this is the sweet spot for us. And if there was a right to win the edge, we have it." >> Can you explain, I mean, people might be saying, well, why do I even need private wireless? I got Wi-Fi. I know it's kind of a dumb question for people who are in the business, but explain to folks in the audience who may not understand the intersection of the two. >> So, yeah, so I think, you know, wireless is a great techno- pardon me, Wi-Fi is a great technology for taking your laptop to the conference room. You know, it's effectively wireless LAN Where private 5G and before that private LTE had come into play is where there's a number of attributes of your application, what you're using it for, for which Wi-Fi is not as well suited. And so, you know, that plays out in different verticals in different ways. Either maybe you need a much higher capacity than Wi-Fi, better security than Wi-Fi, wider coverage like outdoor, and in many cases a more predictable reliability. So cellular is just a different way of handling the wireless interface that provides those attributes. So, you know, I think at the beginning, the first several years, you know Wi-Fi and 5G are going to live side by side in the enterprise for their different roles. How that plays out in the long term? We'll see how they each evolve. >> But I think anybody can relate to that. I mean, Wi-Fi's fine, you know, we have our issues with Wi-Fi. I'm having a lot of issues with Wi-Fi this week, but generally speaking, it works just fine. It's ubiquitous, it's cheap, okay. But I would not want to run my factory on it and rely on it for my robots that are shipping products, right? So that really is kind of the difference. It's really an industry 4.0 type. >> Yeah, exactly. So I mean, manufacturing's an important vertical, but things of energy and mining and things like that they're all outdoor, right? So you actually need the scale that comes, with a higher power technology, and even, you know just basic things like running cameras in a retail store and using AI to watch for certain things. You get a much better latency performance on private 5G and therefore are able to run more sophisticated applications. >> So I could be doing realtime inference. I can imagine Dave, I got an arm processor I'm doing some realtime inference AI at the Edge. You know, you need something like 5G to be able to do that, you can't be doing that over Wi-Fi. >> Yeah >> You nailed it. I mean that's exactly the difference, right? I mean if you look at Wi-Fi, it grow out from a IT enabled mode, right? You got to replace an ethernet. It was an IT extension. A LAN extension. Cellular came up from the mode of, "Hey, when I have that call, I need for it to be consistent and I need for it to be always available," right? So it's a different way of looking at it. Not to say one is better, the other is not better. It's just a different philosophy behind the technologies and they're going to coexist because they meet diverse needs. >> Now you have operators who embrace the idea of 5G obviously, and even private 5G. But the sort of next hurdle to overcome for some, is the idea of open standards. What does the landscape look like right now in terms of those conversations? Are you still having to push people over that hump, to get them beyond the legacy of proprietary closed stacks? >> Yeah, so I think I look, there are still people who are advocating that. And I think in the carrier's core networks it's going to take a little longer their main, you know macro networks that they serve the general public. In the private network though, the opportunity to use open standard and open technology is really strong because that's how you bring the innovation. And that's what we need in order to be able to solve all these different business problems. You know, the problems in retail, and healthcare and energy, they're different. And so you need to be able to use this open stack and be able to bring different elements of technology and blend it together in order to serve it. Otherwise we won't serve it. We'll all fail. So that's why I think it's going to have a quicker path in private. >> And the only thing to add to that is if you look at private 5G and the deployment of private LTE or private 5G, right? There is no real technology debt that you carry. So it's easy for us to say, "Hey, the operators are not listening, they're not going open." But hey, they have a technical debt, they have 2G, 3G, 4G, 5G, systems, right? >> Interviewer: Sure. >> But the reason we are so excited about private 5G and private 4G, is right off the bat when we go into an enterprise space, we can go open. >> So what exactly is Dell's role here? How do you see, obviously you make hardware and you have solutions, but you got to open ecosystems. You got, you know, you got labs, what do you see your role in the ecosystem? Kind of a disruptor here in this, when I walk around this show. >> Well a disruptor, also a solution provider, and system integrator. You know, Sarvesh and I are part of the telecom practice. We have a big Edge practice in Dell as well. And so for this space around private 5G, we're really teamed up with our cohort in the Edge business unit. And think about this as, it's not just private 5G. It's what are you doing with it? That requires storage, it requires compute, it requires other applications. So Dell brings that entire package. There definitely are players who are just focused on the connectivity, but our view is, that's not enough. To ask the enterprise to integrate that all themself. I don't think that's going to work. You need to bring the connectivity and the application to storage compute the whole solution. >> Explain Telecom and and Edge. They're different but they're like cousins in the Dell organization. Where do you guys divide the two? >> You're saying within Dell? >> Yeah, within Dell. >> Yeah, so if you look at Dell, right? Telecom is one of our most newest business units. And the way it has formed is like we talk Edge all the time, right? It's not new. Edge has always been around. So our enterprise Edge has always been around. What has changed with 5G is now you can seamlessly move between the enterprise Edge and the telecom Edge. And for that happen you had to bring in a telecom systems business unit that can facilitate that evolution. The next evolution of seamless Edge that goes across from enterprise all the way into the telco and other places where Edge needs to be. >> Same question for the market, because I remember at Dell Tech World last year, I interviewed Lowe's and the discussion was about the Edge. >> John: Yep. >> What they're doing in their Edge locations. So that's Edge. That's cool. But then I had, I had another discussion with an agriculture firm. They had like the massive greenhouses and they were growing these awesome tomatoes. Well that was Edge too. It was actually further Edge. So I guess those are both Edge, right? >> Sarvesh: Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Spectrum there, right? And then the telecom business, now you're saying is more closely aligned with that? >> Right. >> Depending on what you're trying to do. The appropriate place for the Edge is different. You, you nailed it exactly, right. So if you need wide area, low latency, the Edge being in the telecom network actually makes a lot of sense 'cause they can serve wide area low latency. If you're just doing your manufacturing plant or your logistics facility or your agricultural growing site, that's the Edge. So that's exactly right. And the tech, the reason why they're close cousins between telecom and that is, you're going to need some kind of connectivity, some kind of connectivity from that Edge, in order to execute whatever it's you're trying to do with your business. >> Nature's Fresh was the company. I couldn't think of Nature's Fresh. They're great. Keith awesome Cube guest. >> You mentioned this mix of Wi-Fi and 5G. I know it's impossible to predict with dates certain, you know, when this, how's this is going to develop. But can you imagine a scenario where at some point in time we don't think in terms of Wi-Fi because everything is essentially enabled by a SIM or am I missing a critical piece there, in terms of management of spectrum and the complicated governmental? >> Yeah, there is- >> Situation, am I missing something? It seems like a logical progression to me, but what am I missing? >> Well, there is something to be said about spectrum, right? If you look at Wi-Fi, as I said, the driver behind the technology is different. However, I fully agree with you that at some point in time, whether it's Wi-Fi behind, whether it's private 5G behind becomes a moot point. It's simply a matter of, where is my data being generated? What is the best technology for me to use to ingest that data so I can derive value out of that data. If it means Wi-Fi, so be it. If it means cellular, so be it. And if you look at cellular right? The biggest thing people talk about SIMs. Now if you look at 5G standard. In 5G standard, you have EAPTLS, which means there is a possibility that SIMs in the future go away for IoT devices. I'm not saying they need to go away for consumer devices, they probably need to be there. But who's to say going ahead for IoT devices, they all become SIM free. So at that point, whether you Wi-Fi or 5G doesn't matter. >> Yeah, by the way, on the spectrum side people are starting to think about the concept. You might have heard this NRU, new radio unlicensed. So it's running the Wi-Fi standard, but in the unlicensed bands like Wi-Fi. So, and then the last piece is of course you know, the cost, the reality it stays 5G still new technology, the endpoints, you know, what would go in your laptop or a sensor et cetera. Today that's more expensive than Wi-Fi. So we need to get the volume curve down a little bit for that to really hit every application. I would guess your vision is correct. >> David: Yep >> But who can predict? >> Yeah, so explain more about what the unlicensed piece means for organizations. What does that for everybody? >> That's more of a future thing. So you know, just- >> No, right, but let's put on our telescope. >> Okay, so it's true today that Wi-Fi traditionally runs in the bands that have been licensed by the government and it's a country by country thing, right? >> Dave: Right. >> What we did in the United States was CBRS, is different than what they've done in Germany where they took part of the Zurich C-band and gave it to the enterprises. The telco's not involved. And now that's been copied in Japan and Korea. So it's one of the complications unfortunately in the market. Is that you have this different approach by regulators in different countries. Wi-Fi, the unlicensed band is a nice global standard. So if you could run NR just as 5G, right? It's another name for 5G, run that in the unlicensed bands, then you solve the spectrum problem that Dave was asking about. >> Which means that the market really opens up and now. >> It would be a real enabler >> Innovation. >> Exactly. >> And the only thing I would add to that is, right, there are some enterprises who have the size and scale to kind of say, "Hey, I'm going the unlicensed route. I can do things on my own." There are some enterprises that still are going to rely on the telcos, right? So I don't want to make a demon out of the telcos that you own the spectrum, no. >> David: Sure. >> They will be offering a very valuable service to a massive number of small, medium enterprises and enterprises that span regional boundaries to say, hey we can bring that consistent experience to you. >> But the primary value proposition has been connectivity, right? >> Yes. >> I mean, we can all agree on that. And you hear different monetization models, we can't allow the OTT vendors to do it again. You know, we want to tax Netflix. Okay, we've been talking about that all week. But there may be better models. >> Sarvesh: Yes. >> Right, and so where does private network fit into the monetization models? Let's follow the money here. >> Actually you've brought up an extremely important point, right? Because if you look at why haven't 5G networks taken off, one of the biggest things people keep contrasting is what is the cost of a Wi-Fi versus the cost of deploying a 5G, right? And a portion of the cost of deploying a 5G is how do you commercialize that spectrum? What is going to be the cost of that spectrum, right? So the CSPs will have to eventually figure out a proper commercialization model to say, hey listen, I can't just take what I've been doing till date and say this is how I make. Because if you look at 5G, the return of investment is incremental. Any use case you take, unless, let's take smart manufacturing, unless the factory decides I'm going to rip and replace everything by a 5G, they're going to introduce a small use case. You look at the investment for that use case, you'll say Hmm, I'm not making money. But guess what? Once you've deployed it and you bring use case number two, three, four, five, now it starts to really add value. So how can a CSP acknowledge that and create commercial models to enable that is going to be key. Like one of the things that Dell does in terms of as a service solution that we offer. I think that is a crucial way of really kick starting 5G adoption. >> It's Metcalfe's Law in this world, right? The first telephone, not a lot of value, second, I can call one person, but you know if I can call a zillion now it's valuable. >> John: Now you got data. >> Yeah, right, you used a phrase, rip and replace. What percentage of the market that you are focusing on is the let's go in and replace something, versus the let's help you digitally transform your business. And this is a networking technology that we can use to help you digitally transform? The example that you guys have with the small breweries, a perfect example. >> Sarvesh: Yeah. >> You help digitize, you know, digitally transform their business. You weren't going in and saying, I see that you have these things connected via Wi-Fi, let's rip those out and put SIMs in. >> No. >> Nope, so you know- >> That's exactly right. It's enabling new things that either couldn't be achieved before or weren't. So from a private 5G perspective, it's not going to be rip and replaced. As I said, I think we'll coexist with Wi-Fi, it's still got a great role. It's enabling those, solving those business problems that either hadn't been solved before or could not be solved with other technology. >> How are you guys using AI? Everybody's talking about ChatGPT. I love ChatGPT, we use it all the time. Love it, hate it, you know, whatever. It's a fun topic. But AI generally is here in a way that it wasn't when the enterprise disaggregated. >> John: Right. >> So there's AI, there's automation, there's opportunities there. How do they fit into private 5G? >> So if you look at it, right, AI, AI/ML is actually crucial to value extraction from that data, because all private 5G is doing is giving you access to that precious data. But that data by itself means nothing, right? You get access to the data, extracting value out of the data that bring in business value is all going to be AI/ML. Whether it's computer vision, whether it's data analytics on the fly so that you can, you know do your closed loop controls or what have you. All of these are going to be AI/ML models. >> Dave: Does it play into automation as well? >> Absolutely, 'cause they drive the automation, right? You learn your AI models, drive their automation. Control, closed loop control systems are a perfect example of their automation. >> Explain that further. Like give us an example. >> So for example, let's say we're talking about a smart manufacturing, right? So you have widgets coming down the pipe, right? You have your computer vision, you have your AI/ML model that says, "Hey, I'm starting to detect a consistent error in the product being manufactured. I'm going to close loop that automation and either tweak the settings of the machine, shut down the machine, open a workflow, escalate it for human intervention." All that automation is facilitated by the AI/ML models >> And that, and by the way, there's real money in that, right? If you're making your power and you're making it wrong, you don't detect it for hours, there's real money in fixing that >> Right. >> So I've got a, I've got an example albeit a slight, not even slightly, but a tragic one. Let's say you have a train that's rolling down the tracks at every several miles or so, temperature readings are taken from bearings in the train. >> Sarvesh: Yes, yes. >> Wouldn't it be nice to have that be happening in real time? >> Sarvesh: Yes. >> So it doesn't reach that critical point >> Yes. >> Where then you have a derailment. >> Yes. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> I mean, those are, it's doesn't sound sexy in terms of "Hey, what a great business use case that we can monetize." >> John: Yeah. >> But I'll bet you in hindsight that operator would've loved to have that capability. >> John: Yeah. >> Sarvesh: Right. >> To be able to shut the train down and not run. >> That's a great example where the carrier is actually, probably in a good position, right? Cause you got wide area, you want low latency. So the traditional carriers would be able in great position to provide that exact service. Telemetry is another great example. We've been talking about other kinds of automation, but just picking up measurements and so on. The other example of that is in oil and gas, right? As you've got pipelines running around you're measuring pressure, temperature, you detect a leak, >> David: Right. >> in minutes, not weeks. >> David: Right. >> So there's a lot of good examples of things like that >> To pick up in a point, Dave. You know, it's like you look at these big huge super tankers, right? They have big private networks on that super tanker to monitor everything. If on this train we had, you know, we hear about so many Edges, let's call one more the rolling Edge. >> Yeah. >> Right, that, that Edge is right on that locomotive tracking everything with AI/ML models, detecting things, warning people ahead of time shutting it down as needed. And that connectivity doesn't have to be wired. It can be a rolling wireless. It potentially could be a spectrum that's you know, open spectrum in the future. Or as you said, an operator could facilitate that. So many options, right? >> Yeah, got to double down on this. Look, I know 'cause I've been involved in some of these projects. Amusement park operators are doing this for rides. >> John: Yes. >> Sarvesh: Yep. >> So that they can optimize the amount of time the ride is up, so they can shorten lines >> Yes. >> So that they can get people into shops to buy food and souvenirs. >> John: Yes. >> Certainly we should be able to do it to protect infrastructure. >> Sarvesh: Absolutely. >> Right, so- >> But I think the ultimate point you're making is, it's actually quite finally segmented. There's so many different applications. And so that's why again, we come back to what we started with is at Dell, we're bringing the solution from Edge, compute, application, connectivity, and be able to bring that across all these different verticals and these different solutions. The other amusement park example, by the way, is as the rides start to invest in virtual reality, so you're moving, but you're seeing something, you need some technology like 5G to have low latency and keep that in sync and have a good experience on the ride. >> To 5G and beyond, gents. Thanks so much for coming on theCUBE. >> All right, thank you Dave. >> It was great to have you. >> Thank, thank you guys. >> Great to meet you guys. Thank you very much. >> Great, all right. Keep it right there. For David Nicholson and Dave Vellante, This is theCUBE's coverage of MWC23. Check out siliconangle.com for all the news. theCUBE.net is where all these videos live. John Furrier is in our Palo Alto office, banging out that news. Keep it right there. Be right back after this short break. (gentle upbeat music)

(light music) >> Narrator: theCUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies. Creating technologies that drive human progress. (upbeat music) >> Welcome back to Spain everyone. Lisa Martin here with theCUBE Dave Vellante, my co-host for the next four days. We're live in Barcelona, covering MWC23. This is only day one, but I'll tell you the theme of this conference this year is velocity. And I don't know about you Dave, but this day is flying by already. This is ecosystem day. We're going to have a great discussion on the ecosystem next. >> Well we're seeing the disaggregation of the hardened telco stack, and that necessitates an ecosystem open- we're going to talk about Open RAN, we've been talking about even leading up to the show. It's a critical technology enabler and it's compulsory to have an ecosystem to support that. >> Absolutely compulsory. We've got two guests here joining us, Gautam Bhagra, Vice President partnerships at Dell, and Scott Walker, Vice President of global Telco ecosystem at Wind River. Guys, welcome to the program. >> Nice to be here. >> Thanks For having us. >> Thanks for having us. >> So you've got some news, this is day one of the conference, there's some news, Gautam, and let's start with you, unpack it. >> Yeah, well there's a lot of news, as you know, on Dell World. One of the things we are very excited to announce today is the launch of the Open Telecom Ecosystems Community. I think Dave, as you mentioned, getting into an Open RAN world is a challenge. And we know some of the challenges that our customers face. To help solve for those challenges, Dell wants to work with like-minded partners and customers to build innovative solutions, and join go-to-market. So we are launching that today. Wind River is one of our flagship partners for that, and I'm excited to be here to talk about that as well. >> Can you guys talk a little bit about the partnership, maybe a little bit about Wind River so the audience gets that context? >> Sure, absolutely, and the theme of the show, Velocity, is what this partnership is all about. We create velocity for operators if they want to adopt Open RAN, right? We simplify it. Wind River as a company has been around for 40 years. We were part of Intel at one point, and now we're independent, owned by a company called Aptiv. And with that we get another round of investment to help continue our acceleration into this market. So, the Dell partnership is about, like I said, velocity, accelerating the adoption. When we talk to operators, they have told us there are many roadblocks that they face, right? Like systems integration, operating at scale. 'Cause when you buy a traditional radio access network solution from a single supplier, it's very easy. It's works, it's been tested. When you break these components apart and disaggregate 'em, as we talked about David, it creates integration points and support issues, right? And what Dell and Wind River have done together is created a cloud infrastructure solution that could host a variety of RAN workloads, and essentially create a two layer cake. What we're, overall, what we're trying to do is create a traditional RAN experience, with the innovation agility and flexibility of Open RAN. And that's really what this partnership does. >> So these work, this workload innovation is interesting to me because you've got now developers, you know, the, you know, what's the telco developer look like, you know, is to be defined, right? I mean it's like this white sheet of paper that can create all this innovation. And to do that, you've got to have, as I said earlier, an ecosystem. But you've got now, I'm interested in your Open RAN agenda and how you see that sort of maturity model taking place. 'Cause today, you got disruptors that are going to lean right in say "Hey, yeah, that's great." The traditional carriers, they have to have a, you know, they have to migrate, they have to have a hybrid world. We know that takes time. So what's that look like in the marketplace today? >> Yeah, so I mean, I can start, right? So from a Dell's perspective, what we see in the market is yes, there is a drive towards, everyone understands the benefits of being open, right? There's the agility piece, the innovation piece. That's a no-brainer. The question is how do we get there? And I think that's where partnerships become critical to get there, right? So we've been working with partners like Wind River to build solutions that make it easier for customers to start adopting some of the foundational elements of an open network. The, one of the purposes in the agenda of building this community is to bring like-minded developers, like you said like we want those guys to come and work with the customers to create new solutions, and come up with something creative, which no one's even thought about, that accelerates your option even quicker, right? So that's exactly what we want to do as well. And that's one of the reasons why we launched the community. >> Yeah, and what we find with a lot of carriers, they are used to buying, like I said, traditional RAN solutions which are provided from a single provider like Erickson or Nokia and others, right? And we break this apart, and you cloudify that network infrastructure, there's usually a skills gap we see at the operator level, right? And so from a developer standpoint, they struggle with having the expertise in order to execute on that. Wind River helps them, working with companies like Dell, simplify that bottom portion of the stack, the infrastructure stack. So, and we lifecycle manage it, we test- we're continually testing it, and integrating it, so that the operator doesn't have to do that. In addition to that, wind River also has a history and legacy of working with different RAN vendors, both disruptors like Mavenir and Parallel Wireless, as well as traditional RAN providers like Samsung, Erickson, and others soon to be announced. So what we're doing on the northbound side is making it easy by integrating that, and on the southbound side with Dell, so that again, instead of four or five solutions that you need to put together, it's simply two. >> And you think about today how we- how you consume telco services are like there's these fixed blocks of services that you can buy, that has to change. It's more like the, the app stores. It's got to be an open marketplace, and that's where the innovation's going to come in, you know, from the developers, you know, top down maybe. I don't know, how do you see that maturity model evolving? People want to know how long it's going to take. So many questions, when will Open RAN be as reliable. Does it even have to be? You know, so many interesting dynamics going on. >> Yeah, and I think that's something we at Dell are also trying to find out, right? So we have been doing a lot of good work here to help our customers move in that direction. The work with Dish is an example of that. But I think we do understand the challenges as well in terms of getting, adopting the technologies, and adopting the innovation that's being driven by Open. So one of the agendas that we have as a company this year is to work with the community to drive this a lot further, right? We want to have customers adopt the technology more broadly with the tier one, tier two telcos globally. And our sales organizations are going to be working together with Wind Rivers to figure out who's the right set of customers to have these conversations with, so we can drop, drive, start driving this agenda a lot quicker than what we've seen historically. >> And where are you having those customer conversations? Is that at the operator level, is it higher, is it both? >> Well, all operators are deploying 5G in preparation for 6G, right? And we're all looking for those killer use cases which will drive top line revenue and not just make it a TCO discussion. And that starts at a very basic level today by doing things like integrating with Juniper, for their cloud router. So instead of at the far edge cell site, having a separate device that's doing the routing function, right? We take that and we cloudify that application, run it on the same server that's hosting the RAN applications, so you eliminate a device and reduce TCO. Now with Aptiv, which is primarily known as an automotive company, we're having lots of conversations, including with Dell and Intel and others about vehicle to vehicle communication, vehicle to anything communication. And although that's a little bit futuristic, there are shorter term use cases that, like, vehicle to vehicle accident avoidance, which are going to be much nearer term than autonomous driving, for example, which will help drive traffic and new revenue streams for operators. >> So, oh, that's, wow. So many other things (Scott laughs) that's just opened up there too. But I want to come back to, sort of, the Open RAN adoption. And I think you're right, there's a lot of questions that that still have to be determined. But my question is this, based on your knowledge so far does it have to be as hardened and reliable, obviously has to be low latency as existing networks, or can flexibility, like the cloud when it first came out, wasn't better than enterprise IT, it was just more flexible and faster, and you could rent it. And, is there a similar dynamic here where it doesn't have to replicate the hardened stack, it can bring in new benefits that drive adoption, what are your thoughts on that? >> Well there's a couple of things on that, because Wind River, as you know, where our legacy and history is in embedded devices like F-15 fighter jets, right? Or the Mars Rover or the James Web telescope, all run Wind River software. So, we know about can't fail ultra reliable systems, and operators are not letting us off the hook whatsoever. It has to be as hardened and locked down, as secure as a traditional RAN environment. Otherwise they will (indistinct). >> That's table stakes. >> That's table stakes that gets us there. And when River, with our legacy and history, and having operator experience running live commercial networks with a disaggregated stack in the tens of thousands of nodes, understand what this is like because they're running live commercial traffic with live customers. So we can't fail, right? And with that, they want their cake and eat it too, right? Which is, I want ultra reliable, I want what I have today, but I want the agility and flexibility to onboard third party apps. Like for example, this JCNR, this Juniper Cloud-Native Router. You cannot do something as simple as that on a traditional RAN Appliance. In an open ecosystem you can take that workload and onboard it because it is an open ecosystem, and that's really one of the true benefits. >> So they want the mainframe, but they want (Scott laughs) the flexibility of the developer cloud, right? >> That's right. >> They want their, have their cake eat it too and not gain weight. (group laughs) >> Yeah I mean David, I come from the public cloud world. >> We all don't want to do that. >> I used to work with a public cloud company, and nine years ago, public cloud was in the same stage, where you would go to a bank, and they would be like, we don't trust the cloud. It's not secure, it's not safe. It was the digital natives that adopted it, and that that drove the industry forward, right? And that's where the enterprises that realized that they're losing business because of all these innovative new companies that came out. That's what I saw over the last nine years in the cloud space. I think in the telco space also, something similar might happen, right? So a lot of this, I mean a lot of the new age telcos are understanding the value, are looking to innovate are adopting the open technologies, but there's still some inertia and hesitancy, for the reasons as Scott mentioned, to go there so quickly. So we just have to work through and balance between both sides. >> Yeah, well with that said, if there's still some inertia, but there's a theme of velocity, how do you help organizations balance that so they trust evolving? >> Yeah, and I think this is where our solution, like infrastructure block, is a foundational pillar to make that happen, right? So if we can take away the concerns that the organizations have in terms of security, reliability from the fundamental elements that build their infrastructure, by working with partners like Wind River, but Dell takes the ownership end-to-end to make sure that service works and we have those telco grade SLAs, then the telcos can start focusing on what's next. The applications and the customer services on the top. >> Customer service customer experience. >> You know, that's an interesting point Gautam brings up, too, because support is an issue too. We all talk about when you break these things apart, it creates integration points that you need to manage, right? But there's also, so the support aspect of it. So imagine if you will, you had one vendor, you have an outage, you call that one vendor, one necktie to choke, right, for accountability for the network. Now you have four or five vendors that you have to work. You get a lot of finger pointing. So at least at the infrastructure layer, right? Dell takes first call support for both the hardware infrastructure and the Wind River cloud infrastructure for both. And we are training and spinning them up to support, but we're always behind them of course as well. >> Can you give us a favorite customer example of- that really articulates the value of the partnership and the technologies that it's delivering to customers? >> Well, Infra Block- >> (indistinct) >> Is quite new, and we do have our first customer which is LG U plus, which was announced yesterday. Out of Korea, small customer, but a very important one. Okay, and I think they saw the value of the integrated system. They don't have the (indistinct) expertise and they're leveraging Dell and Wind River in order to make that happen. But I always also say historically before this new offering was Vodafone, right? Vodafone is a leader in Europe in terms of Open RAN, been very- Yago and Paco have been very vocal about what they're doing in Open RAN, and Dell and Wind River have been there with them every step of the way. And that's what I would say, kind of, led up to where we are today. We learned from engagements like Vodafone and I think KDDI as well. And it got us where we are today and understanding what the operators need and what the impediments are. And this directly addresses that. >> Those are two very different examples. You were talking about TCO before. I mean, so the earlier example is, that's an example to me of a disruptor. They'll take some chances, you know, maybe not as focused on TCO, of course they're concerned about it. Vodafone I would think very concerned about TCO. But I'm inferring from your comments that you're trying to get the industry, you're trying to check the TCO box, get there. And then move on to higher levels of value monetization. The TCO is going to come down to how many humans it takes to run the network, is it not, is that- >> Well a lot of, okay- >> Or is it devices- >> So the big one now, particularly with Vodafone, is energy cost, right? >> Of course, greening the network. >> Two-thirds of the energy consumption in RAN is the the Radio Access Network. Okay, the OPEX, right? So any reductions, even if they're 5% or 10%, can save tens or hundreds of millions of dollars. So we do things creatively with Dell to understand if there's a lot of traffic at the cell site and if it's not, we will change the C state or P state of the server, which basically spins it down, so it's not consuming power. But that's just at the infrastructure layer. Where this gets really powerful is working with the RAN vendors like Samsung and Ericson and others, and taking data from the traffic information there, applying algorithms to that in AI to shut it down and spin it back up as needed. 'Cause the idea is you don't want that thing powered up if there's no traffic on it. >> Well there's a sustainability, ESG, benefit to that, right? >> Yes. >> And, and it's very compute intensive. >> A hundred percent. >> Which is great for Dell. But at the same time, if you're not able to manage that power consumption, the whole thing fails. I mean it's, because there's going to be so much data, and such a intense requirement. So this is a huge issue. Okay, so Scott, you're saying that in the TCO equation, a big chunk is energy consumption? >> On the OPEX piece. Now there's also the CapEx, right? And Open RAN solutions are now, what we've heard from our customers today, are they're roughly at parity. 'Cause you can do things like repurpose servers after the useful life for a lower demand application which helps the TCO, right? Then you have situations like Juniper, where you can take, now software that runs on the same device, eliminating at a whole other device at the cell site. So we're not just taking a server and software point of view, we're taking a whole cell site point of view as it relates to both CapEx and OPEX. >> And then once that infrastructure it really gets adopted, that's when the innovation occurs. The ecosystem comes in. Developers now start to think of new applications that we haven't thought of yet. >> Gautam: Exactly. >> And that's where, that's going to force the traditional carriers to respond. They're responding, but they're doing so very carefully right now, it's understandable why. >> Yeah, and I think you're already seeing some news in the, I mean Nokia's announcement yesterday with the rebranding, et cetera. That's all positive momentum in my opinion, right? >> What'd you think of the logo? >> I love the logo. >> I liked it too. (group laughs) >> It was beautiful. >> I thought it was good. You had the connectivity down below, You need pipes, right? >> Exactly. >> But you had this sort of cool letters, and then the the pink horizon or pinkish, it was like (Scott laughs) endless opportunity. It was good, I thought it was well thought out. >> Exactly. >> Well, you pick up on an interesting point there, and what we're seeing, like advanced carriers like Dish, who has one of the true Open RAN networks, publishing APIs for programmers to build in their 5G network as part of the application. But we're also seeing the network equipment providers also enable carriers do that, 'cause carriers historically have not been advanced in that way. So there is a real recognition that in order for these networks to monetize new use cases, they need to be programmable, and they need to publish standard APIs, so you can access the 5G network capabilities through software. >> Yeah, and the problem from the carriers, there's not enough APIs that the carriers have produced yet. So that's where the ecosystem comes in, is going to >> A hundred percent >> I think there's eight APIs that are published out of the traditional carriers, which is, I mean there's got to be 8,000 for a marketplace. So that's where the open ecosystem really has the advantage. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> Yeah. >> So it all makes sense on paper, now you just, you got a lot of work to do. >> We got to deliver. Yeah, we launched it today. We got to get some like-minded partners and customers to come together. You'll start seeing results coming out of this hopefully soon, and we'll talk more about it over time. >> Dave: Great Awesome, thanks for sharing with us. >> Excellent. Guys, thank you for sharing, stopping by, sharing what's going on with Dell and Wind River, and why the opportunity's in it for customers and the technological evolution. We appreciate it, you'll have to come back, give us an update. >> Our pleasure, thanks for having us. (Group talks over each other) >> All right, thanks guys >> Appreciate it. >> For our guests and for Dave Vellante, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE, Live from MWC23 in Barcelona. theCUBE is the leader in live tech coverage. (upbeat music)

>>Hey everyone, welcome to this cube conversation. I'm your host Lisa Martin, and I have the pleasure of welcoming back our most prolific guest on the cube in its history, the CMO of Fin Ad, Eric Herzog. Eric, it's great to see you. Welcome back, >>Lisa. It's great to be here. Love being on the cube. I think this might be number 55 or 56. Been doing 'em a long time with the Cube. You guys are great. >>You, you have, and we always recognize you lately with the Hawaiian shirts. It's your brand that's, that's the Eric Hizo brand. We love it. But I like the pin, the infin nut pin on brand. Thank you. >>Yeah. Oh, gotta be on brand. >>Exactly. So talk about the current IT landscape. So much change we've seen in the last couple of years. Specifically, what are some of the big challenges that you are talking with enterprise customers and cloud service providers? About what, what are some of those major things on their minds? >>So there's a couple things. First of all is obviously with the Rocky economy and even before covid, just for storage in particular, CIOs hate storage. I've been doing this now since 1986. I have never, ever, ever met a CIO at any company I've bid with. And I've been with four of the biggest storage companies on this planet. Never met a cio. Used to be a storage guy. So they know they need it, but boy, they really don't like it. So the storage admins have to manage more and more storage. Exabytes, exabytes, it just ballooning for what a storage admin has to do. Then you then have the covid and is it recession? No. Is it a growth? And then clearly what's happened in the last year with what's going on in Europe and the, is it a recession, the inflation. So they're always looking to, how do we cut money on storage yet still get what we need for our applications, workloads, and use cases. So that's definitely the biggest, the first topic. >>So never met a CIO that was a storage admin or as a fan, but as you point out, they need it. And we've seen needs changing in customer landscapes, especially as the threat landscape has changed so dramatically the last couple of years. Ransomware, you've said it before, I say it too. It's no longer if it's when it's how often. It's the frequency. We've gotta be able to recover. Backups are being targeted. Talk to me about some of, in that landscape, some of the evolutions of customer challenges and maybe those CIOs going, We've gotta make sure that our, our storage data is protected. >>So it's starting to change. However, historically with the cio and then when they started hiring CISOs or security directors, whatever they had, depending on the company size, it was very much about protecting the edge. Okay, if you will, the moat and the wall of the castle. Then it was the network in between. So keep the streets inside the castle clean. Then it was tracking down the bad guy. So if they did get over, the issue is, if I remember correctly, the sheriff of Nottingham never really caught Robinhood. So the problem is the dwell time where the ransomware malware's hidden on storage could be as much as 200 days. So I think they're starting to realize at the security level now, forget, forget the guys on the storage side, the security guys, the cso, the CIO, are starting to realize that if you're gonna have a comprehensive cybersecurity strategy, must include storage. And that is new >>That, well, that's promising then. That's new. I mean obviously promising given the, the challenges and the circumstances. So then from a storage perspective, customers that are in this multi-cloud hybrid cloud environment, you talked about the the edge cloud on-prem. What are some of the key things from a storage perspective that customers have to achieve these days to be secure as data volumes continue to grow and spread? >>So what we've done is implement on both primary storage and secondary storage and technology called infin safe. So Infin Safe has the four legs of the storage cyber security stool. So first of all is creating an air gap. In this case, a logical air gap can be local or remote. We create an immutable snapshot, which means it can't be changed, it can't be altered, so you can't change it. We have a fenced forensic environment to check out the storage because you don't wanna recover. Again, malware and rans square can is hidden. So you could be making amenable snapshots of actually malware, ransomware, and never know you're doing it right. So you have to check it out. Then you need to do a rapid recovery. The most important thing if you have an attack is how fast can you be up and going with recovery? So we have actually instituted now a number of cyber storage security guarantees. >>We will guarantee the SLAs on a, the snapshot is absolutely immutable. So they know that what they're getting is what they were supposed to be getting. And then also we are guaranteeing recovery times on primary storage. We're guaranteeing recovery of under one minute. We'll make the snapshot available under one minute and on secondary storage under 20 minutes. So those are things you gotta look for from a security perspective. And then the other thing you gotta practice, in my world, ransomware, malware, cyber tech is basically a disaster. So yes, you got the hurricane, yes, you got the flood, yes, you got the earthquake. Yes, you got the fire in the building. Yes you got whatever it may be. But if you don't practice malware, ransomware, recoveries and protection, then it might as well be a hurricane or earthquake. It will take your data, >>It will take your data on the numbers of customers that pay ransom is pretty high, isn't it? And and not necessarily able to recover their data. So it's a huge risk. >>So if you think about it, the government documented that last year, roughly $6 trillion was spent either protecting against ransomware and malware or paying ransomware attacks. And there's been several famous ones. There was one in Korea, 72 million ransom. It was one of the Korea's largest companies. So, and those are only the ones that make the news. Most of 'em don't make the news. Right. >>So talk to me then, speaking and making the news. Nobody wants to do that. We, we know every industry is vulnerable to this. Some of the ones that might be more vulnerable, healthcare, government, public sector education. I think the Los Angeles Unified School district was just hit as well in September. They >>Were >>What, talk to me about how infin out is helping customers really dial down the risk when the threat actors are becoming more and more sophisticated? >>Well, there's a couple things. First of all, our infin safe software comes free on our main product. So we have a product called infin Guard for Secondary Storage and it comes for free on that. And then our primary storage product's called the Infin Box. It also comes for free. So they don't have to use it, but we embed it. And then we have reference architectures that we give them our ses, our solutions architects and our technical advisors all up to speed on why they should do it, how they should do it. We have a number of customers doing it. You know, we're heavily concentrated the global Fortune 2000, for example, we publicly announced that 26% of the Fortune 50 use our technology, even though we're a small company. So we go to extra lengths to a B, educated on our own front, our own teams, and then B, make sure they portray that to the end users and our channel partners. But the end users don't pay a dime for the software that does what I just described, it's free, it's included when you get you're Infin box or you're ingar, it's included at no charge. >>That's pretty differentiating from a competitive standpoint. I might, I would guess >>It is. And also the guarantee. So for example, on primary storage, okay, whether you'd put your Oracle or put your SAP or I Mongo or your sequel or your highly transactional workloads, right? Your business finance workload, all your business critical stuff. We are the first and only storage company that offers a primary guarantee on cyber storage resilience. And we offer two of them on primary storage. No other vendor offers a guarantee, which we do on primary storage. Whether you the first and right now as of here we are sitting in the middle of October. We are still the only vendor that offers anything on primary storage from a guaranteed SLA on primary storage for cyber storage resilience. >>Let's talk about those guarantees. Walk me through what you just announced. There's been a a very, a lot of productivity at Infin DAT in 2022. A lot of things that you've announced but on crack some of the things you're announcing. Sure. Talk to me specifically about those guarantees and what's in it for me as a customer. It sounds pretty obvious, but I'd love to hear it from you. >>Okay, so we've done really three different types of guarantees. The first one is we have a hundred percent availability guarantee on our primary storage. And we've actually had that for the last, since 2019. So it's a hundred percent availability. We're guaranteed no downtime, a hundred percent availability, which for our customer base being heavily concentrated, the global Fortune 2000 large government enterprises, big universities and even smaller companies, we do a lot of business with CSPs and MSPs. In fact, at the Flash Memory Summit are Infin Box ssa All Flash was named the best product for hyperscaler deployment. Hyperscaler basically means cloud servers provider. So they need a hundred percent availability. So we have a guarantee on that. Second guarantee we have is a performance guarantee. We'll do an analysis, we look at all their workloads and then we will guarantee in writing what the performance should be based on which, which of our products they want to buy are Infin Box or Infin Box ssa, which is all flash. >>Then we have the third one is all about cyber resilience. So we have two on our Infin box, our Infin box SSA for primary storage, which is a one the immutability of the snapshot and immediately means you can't erase the data. Right? Camp tamper with it. Second one is on the recovery time, which is under a minute. We just announced in the middle of October that we are doing a similar cyber storage resilience guarantee on our ARD secondary product, which is designed for backup recovery, et cetera. We will also offer the immutably snapshot guarantee and also one on the recoverability of that data in under 20 minutes. In fact, we just did a demo at our live launch earlier this week and we demoed 20 petabytes of Veeam backup data recovered in 12 minutes. 12 >>Minutes 2012. >>20 petabytes In >>12 bytes in 12 minutes. Yes. That's massive. That's massively differentiating. But that's essential for customers cuz you know, in terms of backups and protecting the data, it's all about recovery >>A and once they've had the attack, it's how fast you get back online, right? That that's what happens if they've, if they can't stop the attack, can't stop the threat and it happens. They need to get that back as fast as they can. So we have the speed of recovery on primary stores, the first in the industry and we have speed on the backup software and we'll do the same thing for a backup data set recovery as well. Talk >>To me about the, the what's in it for me, For the cloud service providers, they're obviously the ones that you work with are competing with the hyperscalers. How does the guarantees and the differentiators that Fin out is bringing to market? How do you help those cloud SPS dial up their competitiveness against the big cheeses? >>Well, what we do is we provide that underlying infrastructure. We, first of all, we only sell things that are petabyte in scale. That's like always sell. So for example, on our in fitter guard product, the raw capacity is over four petabytes. And the effective capacity, cuz you do data reduction is over 85 petabytes on our newest announced product, on our primary storage product, we now can do up to 17 petabytes of effective capacity in a single rack. So the value to the service rider is they can save on what slots? Power and floor. A greener data center. Yeah, right. Which by the way is not just about environmentals, but guess what? It also translate into operational expense. >>Exactly. CapEx office, >>With a lot of these very large systems that we offer, you can consolidate multiple products from our competitors. So for example, with one of the competitors, we had a deal that we did last quarter 18 competitive arrays into one of ours. So talk about saving, not just on all of the operational expense, including operational manpower, but actually dramatically on the CapEx. In fact, one of our Fortune 500 customers in the telco space over the last five years have told us on CapEx alone, we've saved them $104 million on CapEx by consolidating smaller technology into our larger systems. And one of the key things we do is everything is automated. So we call it autonomous automation use AI based technology. So once you install it, we've got several public references who said, I haven't touched this thing in three or four years. It automatically configures itself. It automatically adjusts to changes in performance and new apps. When I put in point a new app at it automatically. So in the old days the storage admin would optimize performance for a new application. We don't do that, we automatically do it and autonomously the admin doesn't even click a button. We just sense there's new applications and we automate ourselves and configure ourselves without the admin having to do anything. So that's about saving operational expense as well as operational manpower. >>Absolutely. I was, one of the things that was ringing in my ear was workforce productivity and obviously those storage admins being able to to focus on more strategic projects. Can't believe the CIOs aren't coming around yet. But you said there's, there's a change, there's a wave coming. But if we think about the the, the what's in it for me as a customer, the positive business outcomes that I'm hearing, lower tco, your greener it, which is key. So many customers that we talk to are so focused on sustainability and becoming greener, especially with an on-prem footprint, workforce productivity. Talk about some of the other key business outcomes that you're helping customers achieve and how it helps them to be more competitive. >>Sure. So we've got a, a couple different things. First of all, storage can't go down. When the storage goes down, everyone gets blamed. Mission. When an app goes down, no one really thinks about it. It's always the storage guy's fault. So you want to be a hundred percent available. And that's today's businesses, and I'd actually argue it's been this way for 20 years are 24 by seven by 365. So that's one thing that we deliver. Second thing is performance. So we have public references talk about their SAP workload that used to take two hours, now takes 20 minutes, okay? We have another customer that was doing SAP queries. They improved their performance three times, Not 3%, not 3%, three times. So 300% better performance just by using our storages. They didn't touch the sap, they didn't touch the servers. All they do is to put our storage in there. >>So performance relates basically to applications, workloads and use cases and productivity beyond it. So think the productivity of supply chain guys, logistics guys, the shipping guys, the finance guys, right? All these applications that run today's enterprises. So we can automate all that. And then clearly the cyber threat. Yeah, that is a huge issue. And every CIO is concerned about the cyber threat. And in fact, it was interesting, Fortune magazine did a survey of CEOs, and this was last May, the number one concern, 66% in that may survey was cyber security number one concern. So this is not just a CIO thing, this is a CEO thing and a board level >>Thing. I was gonna say it's at at the board level that the cyber security threats are so real, they're so common. No one wants to be the next headline, like the colonial pipeline, right? Or the school districts or whatnot. And everybody is at risk. So then what you're enabling with what you've just announced, the all the guarantees on the SLAs, the massively fast recovery times, which is critical in cyber recovery. Obviously resilience is is key there. Modern data protection it sounds like to me. How do you define that and and what are customers looking for with respect to modern cyber resilience versus data protection? >>Yeah, so we've got normal data protection because we work with all the backup vendors. Our in ARD is what's known as a purpose built backup appliance. So that allows you to back at a much faster rate. And we work all the big back backup vendors, IBM spectrum Protect, we work with veritas vem com vault, oracle arm, anybody who does backup. So that's more about the regular side, the traditional backup. But the other part of modern data protection is infusing that with the cyber resilience. Cuz cyber resilience is a new thing. Yes, from a storage guy perspective, it hasn't been around a long time. Many of our competitors have almost nothing. One or two of our competitors have a pretty robust, but they don't guarantee it the way we guarantee it. So they're pretty good at it. But the fact that we're willing to put our money where our mouth is, we think says we price stand above and then most of the other guys in the storage industry are just starting to get on the bandwagon of having cyber resilience. >>So that changes what you do from data protection, what would call modern data protection is a combination of traditional backup recovery, et cetera. Now with this influence and this infusion of cybersecurity cyber resilience into a storage environment. And then of course we've also happened to add it on primary storage as well. So whether it's primary storage or backup and archive storage, we make sure you have that right cyber resilience to make it, if you will, modern data protection and diff different from what it, you know, the old backup of your grandfather, father, son backup in tape or however you used to do it. We're well beyond that now we adding this cyber resilience aspect. Well, >>From a cyber resilience perspective, ransomware, malware, cyber attacks are, that's a disaster, right? But traditional disaster recovery tools aren't really built to be able to pull back that data as quickly as it sounds like in Trinidad is able to facilitate. >>Yeah. So one of the things we do is in our reference architectures and written documentation as well as when we do the training, we'd sell the customers you need to practice, if you practice when there's a fire, a flood, a hurricane, an earthquake or whatever is the natural disaster you're practicing that you need to practice malware and ran somewhere. And because our recovery is so rapid and the case of our ingar, our fenced environment to do the testing is actually embedded in it. Several of our competitors, if you want the fenced environment, you have to buy a second product with us. It's all embedded in the one item. So A, that makes it more effective from a CapEx and opex perspective, but it also makes it easier. So we recommend that they do the practice recoveries monthly. Now whether they do it or not separate issue, but at least that's what we're recommending and say, you should be doing this on a monthly basis just like you would practice a disaster, like a hurricane or fire or a flood or an earthquake. Need to be practicing. And I think people are starting to hear it, but they don't still think more about, you know, the flood. Yeah. Or about >>The H, the hurricane. >>Yeah. That's what they think about. They not yet thinking about cybersecurity as really a disaster model. And it is. >>Absolutely. It is. Is is the theme of cyber resilience, as you said, this is a new concept, A lot of folks are talking about it, applying it differently. Is that gonna help dial up those folks just really being much more prepared for that type of cyber disaster? >>Well, we've made it so it's automated. Once you set up the immutable snapshots, it just does its thing. You don't set it and forget it. We create the logical air back. Once you do it, same thing. Set it and forget it. The fence forensic environment, easy to deploy. You do have to just configure it once and then obviously the recovery is almost instantaneous. It's under a minute guaranteed on primary storage and under 20 minutes, like I told you when we did our launch this week, we did 20 petabytes of Veeam backup data in 12 minutes. So that's pretty incredible. That's a lot of data to have recovered in 12 minutes. So the more automated we make it, which is what our real forte is, is this autonomous automation and automating as much as possible and make it easy to configure when you do have to configure. That's what differentiates what we do from our perspective. But overall in the storage industry, it's the recognition finally by the CISOs and the CIOs that, wait a second, maybe storage might be an essential part of my corporate cybersecurity strategy. Yes. Which it has not been historically, >>But you're seeing that change. Yes. >>We're starting to see that change. >>Excellent. So talk to me a little bit before we wrap here about the go to market one. Can folks get their hands on the updates to in kindergar and Finn and Safe and Penta box? >>So all these are available right now. They're available now either through our teams or through our, our channel partners globally. We do about 80% of our business globally through the channel. So whether you talk to us or talk to our channel partners, we're there to help. And again, we put our money where your mouth is with those guarantees, make sure we stand behind our products. >>That's awesome. Eric, thank you so much for joining me on the program. Congratulations on the launch. The the year of productivity just continues for infinit out is basically what I'm hearing. But you're really going in the extra mile for customers to help them ensure that the inevitable cyber attacks, that they, that they're complete storage environment on prem will be protected and more importantly, recoverable Very quickly. We appreciate your insights and your input. >>Great. Absolutely love being on the cube. Thank you very much for having us. Of >>Course. It's great to have you back. We appreciate it. For Eric Herzog, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching this cube conversation live from Palo Alto.

>> We're back at the ARIA Las Vegas. We're covering CrowdStrike's Fal.Con 22. First one since 2019. Dave Vellante and Dave Nicholson on theCUBE. Adam Meyers is here, he is the Senior Vice President of Intelligence at CrowdStrike. Adam, thanks for coming to theCUBE. >> Thanks for having me. >> Interesting times, isn't it? You're very welcome. Senior Vice President of Intelligence, tell us what your role is. >> So I run all of our intelligence offerings. All of our analysts, we have a couple hundred analysts that work at CrowdStrike tracking threat actors. There's 185 threat actors that we track today. We're constantly adding more of them and it requires us to really have that visibility and understand how they operate so that we can inform our other products: our XDR, our Cloud Workload Protections and really integrate all of this around the threat actor. >> So it's that threat hunting capability that CrowdStrike has. That's what you're sort of... >> Well, so think of it this way. When we launched the company 11 years ago yesterday, what we wanted to do was to tell customers, to tell people that, well, you don't have a malware problem, you have an adversary problem. There are humans that are out there conducting these attacks, and if you know who they are what they're up to, how they operate then you're better positioned to defend against them. And so that's really at the core, what CrowdStrike started with and all of our products are powered by intelligence. All of our services are our OverWatch and our Falcon complete, all powered by intelligence because we want to know who the threat actors are and what they're doing so we can stop them. >> So for instance like you can stop known malware. A lot of companies can stop known malware, but you also can stop unknown malware. And I infer that the intelligence is part of that equation, is that right? >> Absolutely. That that's the outcome. That's the output of the intelligence but I could also tell you who these threat actors are, where they're operating out of, show you pictures of some of them, that's the threat intel. We are tracking down to the individual persona in many cases, these various threats whether they be Chinese nation state, Russian threat actors, Iran, North Korea, we track as I said, quite a few of these threats. And over time, we develop a really robust deep knowledge about who they are and how they operate. >> Okay. And we're going to get into some of that, the big four and cyber. But before we do, I want to ask you about the eCrime index stats, the ECX you guys call it a little side joke for all your nerds out there. Maybe you could explain that Adam >> Assembly humor. >> Yeah right, right. So, but, what is that index? You guys, how often do you publish it? What are you learning from that? >> Yeah, so it was modeled off of the Dow Jones industrial average. So if you look at the Dow Jones it's a composite index that was started in the late 1800s. And they took a couple of different companies that were the industrial component of the economy back then, right. Textiles and railroads and coal and steel and things like that. And they use that to approximate the overall health of the economy. So if you take these different stocks together, swizzle 'em together, and figure out some sort of number you could say, look, it's up. The economy's doing good. It's down, not doing so good. So after World War II, everybody was exuberant and positive about the end of the war. The DGI goes up, the oil crisis in the seventies goes down, COVID hits goes up, sorry, goes down. And then everybody realizes that they can use Amazon still and they can still get the things they need goes back up with the eCrime index. We took that approach to say what is the health of the underground economy? When you read about any of these ransomware attacks or data extortion attacks there are criminal groups that are working together in order to get things spammed out or to buy credentials and things like that. And so what the eCrime index does is it takes 24 different observables, right? The price of a ransom, the number of ransom attacks, the fluctuation in cryptocurrency, how much stolen material is being sold for on the underground. And we're constantly computing this number to understand is the eCrime ecosystem healthy? Is it thriving or is it under pressure? And that lets us understand what's going on in the world and kind of contextualize it. Give an example, Microsoft on patch Tuesday releases 56 vulnerabilities. 11 of them are critical. Well guess what? After hack Tuesday. So after patch Tuesday is hack Wednesday. And so all of those 11 vulnerabilities are exploitable. And now you have threat actors that have a whole new array of weapons that they can deploy and bring to bear against their victims after that patch Tuesday. So that's hack Wednesday. Conversely we'll get something like the colonial pipeline. Colonial pipeline attack May of 21, I think it was, comes out and all of the various underground forums where these ransomware operators are doing their business. They freak out because they don't want law enforcement. President Biden is talking about them and he's putting pressure on them. They don't want this ransomware component of what they're doing to bring law enforcement, bring heat on them. So they deplatform them. They kick 'em off. And when they do that, the ransomware stops being as much of a factor at that point in time. And the eCrime index goes down. So we can look at holidays, and right around Thanksgiving, which is coming up pretty soon, it's going to go up because there's so much online commerce with cyber Monday and such, right? You're going to see this increase in online activity; eCrime actors want to take advantage of that. When Christmas comes, they take vacation too; they're going to spend time with their families, so it goes back down and it stays down till around the end of the Russian Orthodox Christmas, which you can probably extrapolate why that is. And then it goes back up. So as it's fluctuating, it gives us the ability to really just start tracking what that economy looks like. >> Realtime indicator of that crypto. >> I mean, you talked about, talked about hack Wednesday, and before that you mentioned, you know, the big four, and I think you said 185 threat actors that you're tracking, is 180, is number 185 on that list? Somebody living in their basement in their mom's basement or are the resources necessary to get on that list? Such that it's like, no, no, no, no. this is very, very organized, large groups of people. Hollywood would have you believe that it's guy with a laptop, hack Wednesday, (Dave Nicholson mimics keyboard clacking noises) and everything done. >> Right. >> Are there individuals who are doing things like that or are these typically very well organized? >> That's a great question. And I think it's an important one to ask and it's both it tends to be more, the bigger groups. There are some one-off ones where it's one or two people. Sometimes they get big. Sometimes they get small. One of the big challenges. Have you heard of ransomware as a service? >> Of course. Oh my God. Any knucklehead can be a ransomwarist. >> Exactly. So we don't track those knuckleheads as much unless they get onto our radar somehow, they're conducting a lot of operations against our customers or something like that. But what we do track is that ransomware as a service platform because the affiliates, the people that are using it they come, they go and, you know, it could be they're only there for a period of time. Sometimes they move between different ransomware services, right? They'll use the one that's most useful for them that that week or that month, they're getting the best rate because it's rev sharing. They get a percentage that platform gets percentage of the ransom. So, you know, they negotiate a better deal. They might move to a different ransomware platform. So that's really hard to track. And it's also, you know, I think more important for us to understand the platform and the technology that is being used than the individual that's doing it. >> Yeah. Makes sense. Alright, let's talk about the big four. China, Iran, North Korea, and Russia. Tell us about, you know, how you monitor these folks. Are there different signatures for each? Can you actually tell, you know based on the hack who's behind it? >> So yeah, it starts off, you know motivation is a huge factor. China conducts espionage, they do it for diplomatic purposes. They do it for military and political purposes. And they do it for economic espionage. All of these things map to known policies that they put out, the Five Year Plan, the Made in China 2025, the Belt and Road Initiative, it's all part of their efforts to become a regional and ultimately a global hegemon. >> They're not stealing nickels and dimes. >> No they're stealing intellectual property. They're stealing trade secrets. They're stealing negotiation points. When there's, you know a high speed rail or something like that. And they use a set of tools and they have a set of behaviors and they have a set of infrastructure and a set of targets that as we look at all of these things together we can derive who they are by motivation and the longer we observe them, the more data we get, the more we can get that attribution. I could tell you that there's X number of Chinese threat groups that we track under Panda, right? And they're associated with the Ministry of State Security. There's a whole other set. That's too associated with the People's Liberation Army Strategic Support Force. So, I mean, these are big operations. They're intelligence agencies that are operating out of China. Iran has a different set of targets. They have a different set of motives. They go after North American and Israeli businesses right now that's kind of their main operation. And they're doing something called hack and lock and leak. With a lock and leak, what they're doing is they're deploying ransomware. They don't care about getting a ransom payment. They're just doing it to disrupt the target. And then they're leaking information that they steal during that operation that brings embarrassment. It brings compliance, regulatory, legal impact for that particular entity. So it's disruptive >> The chaos creators that's.. >> Well, you know I think they're trying to create a they're trying to really impact the legitimacy of some of these targets and the trust that their customers and their partners and people have in them. And that is psychological warfare in a certain way. And it, you know is really part of their broader initiative. Look at some of the other things that they've done they've hacked into like the missile defense system in Israel, and they've turned on the sirens, right? Those are all things that they're doing for a specific purpose, and that's not China, right? Like as you start to look at this stuff, you can start to really understand what they're up to. Russia very much been busy targeting NATO and NATO countries and Ukraine. Obviously the conflict that started in February has been a huge focus for these threat actors. And then as we look at North Korea, totally different. They're doing, there was a major crypto attack today. They're going after these crypto platforms, they're going after DeFi platforms. They're going after all of this stuff that most people don't even understand and they're stealing the crypto currency and they're using it for revenue generation. These nuclear weapons don't pay for themselves, their research and development don't pay for themselves. And so they're using that cyber operation to either steal money or steal intelligence. >> They need the cash. Yeah. >> Yeah. And they also do economic targeting because Kim Jong Un had said back in 2016 that they need to improve the lives of North Koreans. They have this national economic development strategy. And that means that they need, you know, I think only 30% of North Korea has access to reliable power. So having access to clean energy sources and renewable energy sources, that's important to keep the people happy and stop them from rising up against the regime. So that's the type of economic espionage that they're conducting. >> Well, those are the big four. If there were big five or six, I would presume US and some Western European countries would be on there. Do you track, I mean, where United States obviously has you know, people that are capable of this we're out doing our thing, and- >> So I think- >> That defense or offense, where do we sit in this matrix? >> Well, I think the big five would probably include eCrime. We also track India, Pakistan. We track actors out of Columbia, out of Turkey, out of Syria. So there's a whole, you know this problem is getting worse over time. It's proliferating. And I think COVID was also, you know a driver there because so many of these countries couldn't move human assets around because everything was getting locked down. As machine learning and artificial intelligence and all of this makes its way into the cameras at border and transfer points, it's hard to get a human asset through there. And so cyber is a very attractive, cheap and deniable form of espionage and gives them operational capabilities, not, you know and to your question about US and other kind of five I friendly type countries we have not seen them targeting our customers. So we focus on the threats that target our customers. >> Right. >> And so, you know, if we were to find them at a customer environment sure. But you know, when you look at some of the public reporting that's out there, the malware that's associated with them is focused on, you know, real bad people, and it's, it's physically like crypted to their hard drive. So unless you have sensor on, you know, an Iranian or some other laptop that might be target or something like that. >> Well, like Stuxnet did. >> Yeah. >> Right so. >> You won't see it. Right. See, so yeah. >> Well Symantec saw it but way back when right? Back in the day. >> Well, I mean, if you want to go down that route I think it actually came from a company in the region that was doing the IR and they were working with Symantec. >> Oh, okay. So, okay. So it was a local >> Yeah. I think Crisis, I think was the company that first identified it. And then they worked with Symantec. >> It Was, they found it, I guess, a logic controller. I forget what it was. >> It was a long time ago, so I might not have that completely right. >> But it was a seminal moment in the industry. >> Oh. And it was a seminal moment for Iran because you know, that I think caused them to get into cyber operations. Right. When they realized that something like that could happen that bolstered, you know there was a lot of underground hacking forums in Iran. And, you know, after Stuxnet, we started seeing that those hackers were dropping their hacker names and they were starting businesses. They were starting to try to go after government contracts. And they were starting to build training offensive programs, things like that because, you know they realized that this is an opportunity there. >> Yeah. We were talking earlier about this with Shawn and, you know, in the nuclear war, you know the Cold War days, you had the mutually assured destruction. It's not as black and white in the cyber world. Right. Cause as, as Robert Gates told me, you know a few years ago, we have a lot more to lose. So we have to be somewhat, as the United States, careful as to how much of an offensive posture we take. >> Well here's a secret. So I have a background on political science. So mutually assured destruction, I think is a deterrent strategy where you have two kind of two, two entities that like they will destroy each other if they so they're disinclined to go down that route. >> Right. >> With cyber I really don't like that mutually assured destruction >> That doesn't fit right. >> I think it's deterrents by denial. Right? So raising the cost, if they were to conduct a cyber operation, raising that cost that they don't want to do it, they don't want to incur the impact of that. Right. And think about this in terms of a lot of people are asking about would China invade Taiwan. And so as you look at the cost that that would have on the Chinese military, the POA, the POA Navy et cetera, you know, that's that deterrents by denial, trying to, trying to make the costs so high that they don't want to do it. And I think that's a better fit for cyber to try to figure out how can we raise the cost to the adversary if they operate against our customers against our enterprises and that they'll go someplace else and do something else. >> Well, that's a retaliatory strike, isn't it? I mean, is that what you're saying? >> No, definitely not. >> It's more of reducing their return on investment essentially. >> Yeah. >> And incenting them- disincening them to do X and sending them off somewhere else. >> Right. And threat actors, whether they be criminals or nation states, you know, Bruce Lee had this great quote that was "be like water", right? Like take the path of least resistance, like water will. Threat actors do that too. So, I mean, unless you're super high value target that they absolutely have to get into by any means necessary, then if you become too hard of a target, they're going to move on to somebody that's a little easier. >> Makes sense. Awesome. Really appreciate your, I could, we'd love to have you back. >> Anytime. >> Go deeper. Adam Myers. We're here at Fal.Con 22, Dave Vellante, Dave Nicholson. We'll be right back right after this short break. (bouncy music plays)

>>Hello, everyone. Welcome to the cubes coverage, extended coverage of the V IP gala event. Earlier in the day, we were at the Monaco crypto summit, where we had 11 years, all the fault leaders here in MoCo coming together. It's a global event. It's an inner circle. It's a beginning, it's an ELG overall event. It's a kernel of the best of the best from finance entrepreneurship government coming together here with the gala event at the yacht club in Monaco. And we got a great lineup here. We have Sherman elder wish from decentralized investment group here with me. She and I was just talking and we're gonna have a great conversation. Welcome to the cube. Thank >>You so much. Thank you for having me. >>It's kind of our laid back to not only have an anchored desk, but we're kind of have conversations. You know, one of the things that we've been talking about is, you know, the technology innovation around decentralized, right? You've been an entrepreneur 9, 9, 9 years. Yes. Plus you're in a region of the world right now where it's exploding. You're in Dubai. Tell your story. You're in Dubai. There's a lot of action what's happening. >>So to Dubai is, is really the bridge between the east and the west. And it's grown. I've, I've had the privilege of witnessing Dubai's growth for over 16 years now. So I've been based in Dubai for 16 years. I'm originally from Jordan, lived in 11 countries. You can call me a global nomad home is where my suitcases and where I, you know, where I'm, I'm literally with my friends and community and the work that I do. So I've been there and I've witnessed this grow through working with the government there as well. So nine years ago, I jumped into the world of entrepreneurship. I specialize in art and education. Also, I work extensively now in decentralized with decentralized investment group. So we specialize in defi game five and also digital assets. So it's a beautiful time to be in Dubai right now. And witness that growth in web three, there's going to be a summit that's actually happening in September. And so it's attracting all the global leaders there with the government there. So they're really investing in, >>You know, the date on that. >>Sorry, >>You know the date on that? Yeah. Oh, >>September. They're going to be September, either 27th or >>28th. So later in the month, >>Yes. Later in the month of September. Okay. So it's very exciting to be a part >>Of that. Well, I love you're on here cause I want, first of all, you look fabulous. Great. Oh, thank you. Great event. Everyone's dressed up here. But one of the things I've been passionate about is women in tech. And I know you've got a project now you're working on this. Yes. Not only because it's it's needed. Yeah, but they're taking over. There's a lot of growth. Absolutely. The young entrepreneurs, young practitioners, absolutely young women all around the world. Absolutely. And we did a five region women in tech on March 7th with Stanford university, amazing. And Amazon web services. And I couldn't believe the stories. So we're gonna do more. And I want to get your take on this because there are stories that need to be told. Absolutely. What are, what are the, some of the stories that you're seeing, some of the, some of the cautionary tales, some of the successes, >>Well, you have, I mean the middle east right now is really a space, especially in Dubai, in the UAE, the growth of women in entrepreneurship, the support that we have from incubators, there, there is a hunger for growth and learning and innovation. And that is the beauty of being there. There are so many incredible stories, not one that I could say right now, but each and every story is exquisite and extraordinary. And what's really amazing is that you have the community there that supports one another, especially women in tech. I'm, I'm actually one of the co-founders of made for you global, which is a tech platform, which attracts entrepreneurship, female entrepreneurs, and really helping them kind of grow to their potential or maximize their potential. And we're actually going to have it on web three as well and integrate it within the blockchain. So there's a lot of, there's a lot of passion for, for growth in women, in tech and, and there's so many incredible stories to come, not just one, so many. And I invite you to come to Dubai so I can introduce you to all >>These incredible. So I'm really glad you're inclusive about men. >>Of course, we're inclusive >>About men, >>You know, men and women. I mean, it's a community that brings together these ideas. >>Yeah. I will say I had to go the microphone one time because I love doing the Stanford women in data science, but they, and we have female, a host. I just wanna do the interviews right there. So smart. I said, Chuck, can we have the female interviews cuz you know, like, okay, but they included me. Oh yes. But in all serious. Now this is a major force because women entrepreneurship make up 50% of the, the target audience of all products. Absolutely. So if, why, why isn't there more developers and input into the products and policies, right? That shape our society. This has been one of those head scratching moments and we're making progress, but not fast enough. >>Absolutely. And you know what, especially after COVID, so after COVID we all learned the lessons of the hybrid models of being more flexible of being more innovative of being making use of our time more effectively. And we've witnessed like an increase in women in tech over the years and especially in web three and decentralized investment group invest heavily into women and in tech as well, >>Give some examples of some things you're working on right now, projects you're investing in. So >>We're, well, everything that we do is inclusive of women. So with game five, for example, we specialize greatly in game five through our subsidiary company, based in the us, it's called X, Y, Z, Z Y it's gaming. And actually many of our creative team are women who are the developers behind the scenes who are bringing it to life. A lot of basically we're trying to educate the public as well about how to get meta mask wallets and to enter into this field. It's all about education and growing that momentum to be able to be more and more inclusive. >>Do you think you can help us get a cube host out there? Of course, of course they gotta be dynamic. Of course smart of course and no teleprompter of >>Course. And we would love for you to come so that we can really introduce you to >>All well now, now that COVID is over. We got a big plan on going cube global, digging it out in 2019, we had London, Bahrain, Singapore, amazing Dubai, Korea. Amazing. And so we wanted to really get out there and create a node, right? And open source kind of vibe where right. The folks all around the world can connect through the network effects. And one thing I noticed about the women in tech, especially in your area is the networking is really high velocity. Absolutely people like the network out there is that, do you see that as well? Absolutely. >>Because it's a, it's a city of transition, you know? So that's the beauty of Dubai, it's positioning power. And also it's a very innovative hub. And so with all of these summits that are coming up, it's attracting the communities and there's lots of networking that happens there. And I think more and more we're seeing with web three is that it is all about the community. It's all about bringing everyone together. >>Well, we got people walking through the sets. See, that's the thing that about a cocktail party. You got people walking through the set that's good. Made, had some color. Rachel Wolfson is in the house. Rachel is here. That's Rachel Woodson. If you didn't recognize her she's with coin Telegraph. Oh bless. I don't know who they, the Glo is as they say, but that's how he went cool to me. All right. So betting back to kinda what you're working on. Have you been to Silicon valley lately? Because you're seeing a lot of peering where people are looking at web three and saying, Hey, Silicon valley is going through a transition too. You're seeing beacons of outposts, right? Where you got people moving to Miami, you got Dubai, you got Singapore, you got, you know, Japan, all these countries. Now there's a, there's a network effect. >>Absolutely. It's all about. And honestly, when I see, I mean, I've been to Miami so many times this year for all the web three events and also in Austin and GTC as well. And what you see is that there is this ripple effect that's happening and it is attracting more and more momentum because the conversations are there and the openness to work together. It's all about partnerships and collaboration. This is a field which is based on collaboration communities. >>Awesome. What are some of the advice advice you have for women out there that are watching around being an entrepreneur? Because we were talking before we came on camera about it's hard. It's not easy. It's not for the faint of heart. Yeah. As Theresa Carlson, a friend of mine used, used to say all the time entrepreneurship was a rollercoaster. Of course, what's your advice don't give up or stay strong. What's your point of view? >>Honestly, if you're passionate about what you do. And I know it sounds very cliche. It's really important to stay focused, moving forward, always. And really it's about partnerships. It's about the ability to network. It's the ability to fail as well. Yeah. And to learn from your mistakes and to know when to ask for help. A lot of the times, you know, we shy away from asking for help or because we're embarrassed, but we need to be more open to failing, to growing and to also collaborating with one another. >>Okay. So final question for you while I got, by the way, you're an awesome guest. Oh, thank you. What are you what's next for you? What are you working on right now? Next year? What's on your goal list. What's your project? What's >>Your top goal? Oh my gosh. >>Top three, >>Top three, definitely immersing myself more into web three. Web three is definitely the future getting made for you global on the ground and running in terms of the networking aspect in a female entrepreneurship, more and more giving back as well. So using web three for social good. So a lot more charitable, innovative kind of campaigns that we hope to host within the web three community to be able to educate, to innovate and also help those that are, that need it the most as >>Well. Shaman, thank you for coming on the cube. I really appreciate it. And thanks for coming on. Thank you >>So much. >>I'm so grateful. Okay. You watching the queue, we're back in the more coverage here at the after party of the event, it's the VIP gala with prince Albert and all the top guests in Monica leaning into crypto I'm John furier. Thanks for watching.

>>And welcome back to the cubes coverage of a, of us. Reinforc here in Boston, Massachusetts. I'm John furrier. We're here for a great interview on the next generation topic of state of industrial security. We have two great guests, Tim Jefferson, senior vice president data network and application security at Barracuda. And Cenon Aron vice president of zero trust engineering at Barracuda. Gentlemen. Thanks for coming on the queue. Talk about industrial security. >>Yeah, thanks for having us. >>So one of the, one of the big things that's going on, obviously you got zero trust. You've got trusted, trusted software supply chain challenges. You've got hardware mattering more than ever. You've got software driving everything, and all this is talking about industrial, you know, critical infrastructure. We saw the oil pipeline had a hack and ransomware attack, and that's just constant barrage of threats in the industrial area. And all the data is pointing to that. This area is gonna be fast growth machine learning's kicking in automation is coming in. You see a huge topic, huge growth trend. What is the big story going on here? >>Yeah, I think at a high level, you know, we did a survey and saw that, you know, over 95% of the organizations are experiencing, you know, security challenges in this space. So, you know, the blast radius in the, of the, the interface that this creates so many different devices and things and objects that are getting network connected now create a huge challenge for security teams to kind of get their arms around that. >>Yeah. And I can add that, you know, majority of these incidents that, that these organizations suffer lead to significant downtime, right? And we're talking about operational technology here, you know, lives depend on, on these technologies, right? Our, our wellbeing everyday wellbeing depend on those. So, so that is a key driver of initiatives and projects to secure industrial IOT and operational technologies in, in these businesses. >>Well, it's great to have both of you guys on, you know, Tim, you know, you had a background at AWS and sit on your startup, founder, soldier, coming to Barracuda, both very experienced, seeing the ways before in this industry. And I'd like to, if you don't mind talk about three areas, remote access, which we've seen in huge demand with, with the pandemic and the out, coming out with the hybrid and certainly industrial, that's a big part of it. And then secondly, that the trend of clear commitment from enterprises to have in a public cloud component, and then finally the secure access edge, you know, with SAS business models, securing these things, these are the three hot areas let's go into the first one, remote access. Why is this important? It seems that this is the top priority for having immediate attention on what's the big challenge here? Is it the most unsecure? Is it the most important? What, why is this relevant? >>So now I'll let you jump in there. >>Yeah, sure. Happy to. I mean, if you think about it, especially now, we've been through a, a pandemic shelter in place cycle for almost two years. It, it becomes essentially a business continuity matter, right? You do need remote access. We also seen a tremendous shift in hiring the best talent, wherever they are, right. Onboarding them and bringing the talent into, into, into, into businesses that have maybe a lot more distributed environments than traditionally. So you have to account for remote access in every part of everyday life, including industrial technologies, you need remote support, right? You need vendors that might be overseas providing you, you know, guidance and support for these technologies. So remote support is every part of life. Whether you work from home, you work on your, on the go, or you are getting support from a vendor that happens to be in Germany, you know, teleporting into your environment in Hawaii. You know, all these things are essentially critical parts of everyday life. Now >>Talk about ZT and a zero trust network access is a, this is a major component for companies. Obviously, you know, it's a position taking trust and verifies. One other approach, zero trust is saying, Hey, I don't trust you. Take us through why that's important. Why is zero trust network access important in this area? >>Yeah. I mean, I could say that traditionally remote access, if you think about infancy of the internet in the nineties, right? It was all about encryption in, in transit, right? You were all about internet was vastly clear text, right? We didn't have even SSL TLS, widely distributed and, and available. So when VPNs first came out, it was more about preventing sniffing, clear tech clear text information from, from, from the network, right? It was more about securing the, the transport, but now that kind of created a, a big security control gap, which implicitly trusted user users, once they are teleported into a remote network, right? That's the essence of having a remote access session you're brought from wherever you are into an internal network. They implicitly trust you that simply breakdown over time because you are able to compromise end points relatively easily using browser exploits. >>You know, so, so for supply chain issues, water hole attacks, and leverage the existing VPN tunnels to laterally move into the organization from within the network, you literally move in further and further and further down, you know, down the network, right? So the VPN needed a, a significant innovation. It was meant to be securing packets and transit. It was all about an encryption layer, but it had an implicit trust problem with zero trust. We turn it into an explicit trust problem, right? Explicit trust concept, ideally. Right? So you are, who do you say you are? And you are authorized to access only to things that you need to access to get the work done. >>So you're talking about granular levels versus the one time database look up you're in >>That's right. >>Tim, talk about the OT it side of this equation of industrial, because it, you know, is IP based, networking, OT have been purpose built, you know, maybe some proprietary technology yeah. That connects to the internet internet, but it's mainly been secure. Those have come together over the years and now with no perimeter security, how is this world evolving? Because there's gonna be more cloud there, be more machine learning, more hybrid on premise, that's going on almost a reset if you will. I mean, is it a reset? What's the, what's the situation. >>Yeah. I think, you know, in typical human behavior, you know, there's a lot of over rotation going on. You know, historically a lot of security controls are all concentrated in a data center. You know, a lot of enterprises had very large sophisticated well-established security stacks in a data center. And as those applications kind of broke down and, and got rearchitected for the cloud, they got more modular, they got more distributed that centralized security stack became an anti pattern. So now this kind of over rotation, Hey, let's take this stack and, and put it up in the cloud. You know, so there's lots of names for this secure access, service edge, you know, secure service edge. But in the end, you know, you're taking your controls and, and migrating them into the cloud. And, you know, I think ultimately this creates a great opportunity to embrace some of security, best practices that were difficult to do in some of the legacy architectures, which is being able to push your controls as far out to the edge as possible. >>And the interesting thing about OT and OT now is just how far out the edge is, right? So instead of being, you know, historically it was the branch or user edge, remote access edge, you know, Syon mentioned that you, you have technologies that can VPN or bring those identities into those networks, but now you have all these things, you know, partners, devices. So it's the thing, edge device edge, the user edge. So a lot more fidelity and awareness around who users are. Cause in parallel, a lot of the IDP and I IBM's platforms have really matured. So marrying those concepts of this, this lot of maturity around identity management yeah. With device in and behavior management into a common security framework is really exciting. But of course it's very nascent. So people are, it's a difficult time getting your arms around >>That. It's funny. We were joking about the edge. We just watching the web telescope photos come in the deep space, the deep edge. So the edge is continuing to be pushed out. Totally see that. And in fact, you know, one of the things we're gonna, we're gonna talk about this survey that you guys had done by an independent firm has a lot of great data. I want to unpack that, but one of the things that was mentioned in there, and I'll get, I wanna get your both reaction to this is that virtually all organizations are committing to the public cloud. Okay. I think it was like 96% or so was the stat. And if you combine in that, the fact that the edge is expanding, the cloud model is evolving at the edge. So for instance, a building, there's a lot behind it. You know, how far does it go? So we don't and, and what is the topology because the topology seem to change too. So there's this growth and change where we need cloud operations, DevOps at, at the edge and the security, but it's changing. It's not pure cloud, but it's cloud. It has to be compatible. What's your reaction to that, Tim? I mean, this is, this is a big part of the growth of industrial. >>Yeah. I think, you know, if you think about, there's kind of two exciting developments that I would think of, you know, obviously there's this increase to the surface area, the tax surface areas, people realize, you know, it's not just laptops and devices and, and people that you're trying to secure, but now they're, you know, refrigerators and, you know, robots and manufacturing floors that, you know, could be compromised, have their firmware updated or, you know, be ransomware. So this a huge kind of increase in surface area. But a lot of those, you know, industrial devices, weren't built around the concept with network security. So kind of bolting on, on thinking through how can you secure who and what ultimately has access to those, to those devices and things. And where is the control framework? So to your point, the control framework now is typically migrated now into public cloud. >>These are custom applications, highly distributed, highly available, very modular. And then, you know, so how do you, you know, collect the telemetry or control information from these things. And then, you know, it creates secure connections back into these, these control applications, which again, are now migrated to public cloud. So you have this challenge, you know, how do you secure? We were talking about this last time we discussed, right. So how do you secure the infrastructure that I've, I've built in deploying now, this control application and in public cloud, and then connect in with this, this physical presence that I have with these, you know, industrial devices and taking telemetry and control information from those devices and bringing it back into the management. And this kind marries again, back into the remote axis that Sunan was mentioning now with this increase awareness around the efficacy of ransomware, we are, you know, we're definitely seeing attackers going after the management frameworks, which become very vulnerable, you know, and they're, they're typically just unprotected web applications. So once you get control of the management framework, regardless of where it's hosted, you can start moving laterally and, and causing some damage. >>Yeah. That seems to be the common thread. So no talk about, what's your reaction to that because, you know, zero trust, if it's evolving and changing, you, you gotta have zero trust you. I didn't even know it's out there and then it gets connected. How do you solve that problem? Cuz you know, there's a lot of surface area that's evolving all the OT stuff and the new, it, what's the, what's the perspective and posture that the clients your clients are having and customers. Well, >>I, I think they're having this conversation about further mobilizing identity, right? We did start with, you know, user identity that become kind of the first foundational building block for any kind of zero trust implementation. You work with, you know, some sort of SSO identity provider, you get your, you sync with your user directories, you have a single social truth for all your users. >>You authenticate them through an identity provider. However that didn't quite cut it for industrial OT and OT environments. So you see like we have the concept of hardware machines, machine identities now become an important construct, right? The, the legacy notion of being able to put controls and, and, and, and rules based on network constructs doesn't really scale anymore. Right? So you need to have this concept of another abstraction layer of identity that belongs to a service that belongs to an application that belongs to a user that belongs to a piece of hardware. Right. And then you can, yeah. And then you can build a lot more, of course, scalable controls that basically understand the, the trust relation between these identities and enforce that rather than trying to say this internal network can talk to this other internal network through a, through a network circuit. No, those things are really, are not scalable in this new distributed landscape that we live in today. So identity is basically going to operationalize zero trust and a lot more secure access going forward. >>And that's why we're seeing the sassy growth. Right. That's a main piece of it. Is that what you, what you're seeing too? I mean, that seems to be the, the approach >>I think like >>Go >>Ahead to, yeah. I think like, you know, sassy to me is really about, you know, migrating and moving your security infrastructure to the cloud edge, you know, as we talked to the cloud, you know, and then, you know, do you funnel all ingress and egress traffic through this, you know, which is potentially an anti pattern, right? You don't wanna create, you know, some brittle constraint around who and what has access. So again, a security best practices, instead of doing all your enforcement in one place, you can distribute and push your controls out as far to the edge. So a lot of SASI now is really around centralizing policy management, which is the big be one of the big benefits is instead of having all these separate management plans, which always difficult to be very federated policy, right? You can consolidate your policy and then decide mechanism wise how you're gonna instrument those controls at the edge. >>So I think that's the, the real promise of, of the, the sassy movement and the, I think the other big piece, which you kind of touched on earlier is around analytics, right? So it creates an opportunity to collect a whole bunch of telemetry from devices and things, behavior consumption, which is, which is a big, common, best practice around once you have SA based tools that you can instrument in a lot of visibility and how users and devices are behaving in being operated. And to Syon point, you can marry that in with their identity. Yeah. Right. And then you can start building models around what normal behavior is and, you know, with very fine grain control, you can, you know, these types of analytics can discover things that humans just can't discover, you know, anomalous behavior, any kind of indicators are compromised. And those can be, you know, dynamic policy blockers. >>And I think sun's point about what he was talking about, talks about the, the perimeters no longer secure. So you gotta go to the new way to do that. Totally, totally relevant. I love that point. Let me ask you guys a question on the, on the macro, if you don't mind, how concerned are you guys on the current threat landscape in the geopolitical situation in terms of the impact on industrial IOT in this area? >>So I'll let you go first. Yeah. >>I mean, it's, it's definitely significantly concerning, especially if now with the new sanctions, there's at least two more countries being, you know, let's say restricted to participate in the global economic, you know, Mar marketplace, right? So if you look at North Korea as a pattern, since they've been isolated, they've been sanctioned for a long time. They actually double down on rents somewhere to even fund state operations. Right? So now that you have, you know, BES be San Russia being heavily sanctioned due to due to their due, due to their activities, we can envision more increase in ransomware and, you know, sponsoring state activities through illegal gains, through compromising, you know, pipelines and, you know, industrial, you know, op operations and, and seeking large payouts. So, so I think the more they will, they're ized they're pushed out from the, from the global marketplace. There will be a lot more aggression towards critical infrastructure. >>Oh yeah. I think it's gonna ignite more action off the books, so to speak as we've seen. Yeah. We've >>Seen, you know, another point there is, you know, Barracuda also runs a, a backup, you know, product. We do a, a purpose built backup appliance and a cloud to cloud backup. And, you know, we've been running this service for over a decade. And historically the, the amount of ransomware escalations that we got were very slow, you know, is whenever we had a significant one, helping our customers recover from them, you know, you know, once a month, but over the last 18 months, this is routine now for us, this is something we deal with on a daily basis. And it's becoming very common. You know, it's, it's been a well established, you know, easily monetized route to market for the bad guys. And, and it's being very common now for people to compromise management planes, you know, they use account takeover. And the first thing they're doing is, is breaking into management planes, looking at control frameworks. And then first thing they'll do is delete, you know, of course the backups, which this sort of highlights the vulnerability that we try to talk to our customers about, you know, and this affects industrial too, is the first thing you have to do is among other things, is, is protect your management planes. Yeah. And putting really fine grain mechanisms like zero trust is, is a great, >>Yeah. How, how good is backup, Tim, if you gets deleted first is like no backup. There it is. So, yeah. Yeah. Air gaping. >>I mean, obviously that's kinda a best practice when you're bad guys, like go in and delete all the backups. So, >>And all the air gaps get in control of everything. Let me ask you about the, the survey pointed out that there's a lot of security incidents happening. You guys pointed that out and discussed a little bit of it. We also talked about in the survey, you know, the threat vectors and the threat landscape, the common ones, ransomware was one of them. The area that I liked, what that was interesting was the, the area that talked about how organizations are investing in security and particularly around this, can you guys share your thoughts on how you see the, the market, your customers and, and the industry investing? What are they investing in? What stage are they in when it comes to IOT and OT, industrial IOT and OT security, do they do audits? Are they too busy? I mean, what's the state of their investment thesis progress of, of, of how they're investing in industrial IOT? >>Yeah. Our, our view is, you know, we have a next generation product line. We call, you know, our next, our cloud chain firewalls. And we have a form factor that sports industrial use cases we call secure connectors. So it's interesting that if you, what we learned from that business is a tremendous amount of bespoke efforts at this point, which is sort of indicative of a, of a nascent market still, which is related to another piece of information I thought was really interested in the survey that I think it was 93% of the, the participants, the enterprises had a failed OT initiative, you know, that, you know, people tried to do these things and didn't get off the ground. And then once we see build, you know, strong momentum, you know, like we have a, a large luxury car manufacturer that uses our secure connectors on the, on the robots, on the floor. >>So well established manufacturing environments, you know, building very sophisticated control frameworks and, and security controls. And, but again, a very bespoke effort, you know, they have very specific set of controls and specific set of use cases around it. So it kind of reminds me of the late nineties, early two thousands of people trying to figure out, you know, networking and the blast radi and networking and, and customers, and now, and a lot of SI are, are invested in this building, you know, fast growing practices around helping their customers build more robust controls in, in helping them manage those environments. So, yeah, I, I think that the market is still fairly nascent >>From what we seeing, right. But there are some encouraging, you know, data that shows that at least helpful of the organizations are actively pursuing. There's an initiative in place for OT and a, you know, industrial IOT security projects in place, right. They're dedicating time and resources and budget for this. And, and in, in regards to industries, verticals and, and geographies oil and gas, you know, is, is ahead of the curve more than 50% responded to have the project completed, which I guess colonial pipeline was the, you know, the call to arms that, that, that was the big, big, you know, industrial, I guess, incident that triggered a lot of these projects to be accelerating and, and, you know, coming to the finish line as far as geographies go DACA, which is Germany, Austria, Switzerland, and of course, north America, which happens to be the industrial powerhouses of, of the world. Well, APAC, you know, also included, but they're a bit behind the curve, which is, you know, that part is a bit concerning, but encouragingly, you know, Western Europe and north America is ahead of these, you know, projects. A lot of them are near completion or, or they're in the middle of some sort of an, you know, industrial IOT security project right >>Now. I'm glad you brought the colonial pipeline one and, and oil and gas was the catalyst. Again, a lot of, Hey, scared that better than, than me kinda attitude, better invest. So I gotta ask you that, that supports Tim's point about the management plane. And I believe on that hack or ransomware, it wasn't actually control of the pipeline. It was control over the management billing, and then they shut down the pipeline cuz they were afraid it was gonna move over. So it wasn't actually the critical infrastructure itself to your point, Tim. >>Yeah. It's hardly over the critical infrastructure, by the way, you always go through the management plane, right. It's such an easier lying effort to compromise because it runs on an endpoint it's standard endpoint. Right? All this control software will, will be easier to get to rather than the industrial hardware itself. >>Yeah. It's it's, it's interesting. Just don't make a control software at the endpoint, put it zero trust. So down that was a great point. Oh guys. So really appreciate the time and the insight and, and the white paper's called NETEC it's on the Barracuda. Netex industrial security in 2022. It's on the barracuda.com website Barracuda network guys. So let's talk about the read force event hasn't been around for a while cuz of the pandemic we're back in person what's changed in 2019 a ton it's like security years is not dog years anymore. It's probably dog times too. Right. So, so a lot's gone on where are we right now as an industry relative to the security cybersecurity. Could you guys summarize kind of the, the high order bit on where we are today in 2022 versus 2019? >>Yeah, I think, you know, if you look at the awareness around how to secure infrastructure in applications that are built in public cloud in AWS, it's, you know, exponentially better than it was. I think I remember when you and I met in 2018 at one of these conferences, you know, there were still a lot of concerns, whether, you know, IAS was safe, you know, and I think the amount of innovation that's gone on and then the amount of education and awareness around how to consume, you know, public cloud resources is amazing. And you know, I think that's facilitated a lot of the fast growth we've seen, you know, the consistent, fast growth that we've seen across all these platforms >>Say that what's your reaction to the, >>I think the shared responsibility model is well understood, you know, and, and, and, and we can see a lot more implementation around, you know, CSBM, you know, continuously auditing the configurations in these cloud environments become a, a standard table stake, you know, investment from every stage of any business, right? Whether from early state startups, all the way to, you know, public companies. So I think it's very well understood and, and the, and the investment has been steady and robust when it comes to cloud security. We've been busy, you know, you know, helping our customers and AWS Azure environments and, and others. So I, I think it's well understood. And, and, and we are on a very optimistic note actually in a good place when it comes to public cloud. >>Yeah. A lot of great momentum, a lot of scale and data act out there. People sharing data, shared responsibility. Tim is in, thank you for sharing your insights here in this cube segment coverage of reinforce here in Boston. Appreciate it. >>All right. Thanks for having >>Us. Thank you. >>Okay, everyone. Thanks for watching the we're here at the reinforced conference. AWS, Amazon web services reinforced. It's a security focused conference. I'm John furier host of the cube. We'd right back with more coverage after the short break.

(bright upbeat music) >> Welcome back to theCube's coverage of AWS re:Invent 2021. This is "theCube". We go out to the events. We extract the signal from the noise. We're here at a live event, hybrid event, two sets. We had two remote studios prior to the event, over 100 interviews. Really excited to have George Elissaios here. He's the director of product management for EC2 Edge, really interesting topic at AWS. George, great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >> Yeah, great to be here. Thanks for having me. >> So, everybody's talking about Edge, IoT, EC2. What's the scope of your portfolio, your responsibility? >> Yeah, well, our vision here at AWS is to really bring the power of the AWS platform wherever customers need it. AWS wherever our customers want it is our long-term vision. And we have a bunch of products in this space that help us do that and help us enable our customers whatever their use case is. So we have things like Wavelength. I know we talked about Wavelength before here in "theCube", where we bring full AWS service at the edge of the 5G network, so with 5G edge computing in partnership with telcos worldwide, our partnership with Verizon in the US has been flourishing. We're up to, I think, 15 or more Wavelength zones right now in many of the major cities in the US, but also in Japan and Korea, and in Europe with Vodafone. So that's one of the portfolio kind of offerings. And that helps you as a customer of AWS if you want to have the best latency to mobile devices, whether they are sensors, or mobile phones, or what have you. But we're also feeling out that Edge portfolio with local zones. Earlier today in Werner's keynote, we announced that we're going to launch another 30 local zones in 20 new countries, everywhere from South America, Africa, Asia, Australia, and Europe, obviously. So a lot of expansion there. Very excited about that. And that is kind of a similar offering, but it basically brings you closer to customers in metropolitan areas over the internet. >> So, Wavelength's a big feature. George, I want to get just to touch on it because I think latency comes up a lot in Edge conversations, low latency issues, whether it's cars, factories. You guys gave a demo yesterday to the press corps in the press room, I was there, where you had someone in San Francisco from the Opera and someone in person here in Vegas, and you had 13 milliseconds going back and forth demoing, real time- >> Collaboration. >> The benefit of low latency in remote. It wasn't next door. It was San Francisco. This is kind of the purpose of what Edge is about. Can you explain what that means, that demo, why it was important, and what you were trying to show, and how does it mean for the Edge? >> So there is multiple use cases. One of them is human collaboration, right? Like, we spent the last two years of our lives over conferences and kind of like the teleconferences, and trying to talk over each other and unmute ourselves desperately. But existing solutions kind of work, generally, for most of the things that we do, but when it comes to music collaboration where milliseconds matter, it's a lot harder with existing solutions to get artists to collaborate when they're hundreds of miles away. Last night, we saw a really inspiring demo, I think, of how two top tier musicians, one located in San Francisco and one located in Vegas, can collaborate in opera, which is one of the most precise art forms in the music world. There are no beats in opera to kind of synchronize, so you really need to play off each other, right? So we provided a latency between them of less than 30 milliseconds, which translates, if you're thinking about audio or if you're thinking about the speed of sound, that's like being in the same stage. And that was very inspiring. But there's also a lot of use cases that are machine to machine communications, where even lower latencies matter, and we can think of latencies down to one millisecond, like single digit milliseconds when it comes to, for example, vehicles or robots, and things like that. So we're, with our products, we're enabling customers to drive down that latency, but also the jitter, which is the variation of latency. Especially in human communications, that is almost more important than latency itself. Your mind can adapt to latency, and you can start predicting what's going to happen, but if I'm keep changing that for you, that becomes even harder. >> Well, this is what I want to get to because you got outcomes and applications like this opera example. That's an application, I guess. So working backwards from the application, that's one thing, but now people are really starting to trying to figure out, "What is the Edge?" So I have to ask you, what is AWS's Edge? Is it Outpost, Wavelength? What do people buy to make the Edge work? >> Well, for us, is providing a breadth of services that our customers can either use holistically or combine multiple of those. So a really good example, for example, is DISH Wireless. I'm sure you know we're building with DISH the first in the world mobile network, 5G mobile network fully on cloud, right? So these combines Outposts and combines local zones in order to distribute the 5G network across nationwide. And different parts of their applications live in different edges, right? The local zone, the Outputs, and the region itself. So we have our customers... You know, I talked about how local zones is going to be, you know, in total, 45 cities in the world, right? We're already in 15 in the U.S. We're going to do another 30. But customers might still come, and say, "Oh, why are you not," you know, "in "in Costa Rica?" Well, we'll have Outposts in Costa Rica. So you could build your own offering there, or you could build on top of Outputs while you distribute the rest of your workload in existing AWS offering. So to answer your question, John, there is no single answer. I think that it is per use case and per workload that customers are going to combine or choose which one of- >> Okay, so let's go through local zones. Explain what a local zone is real quick. I know we covered it a bit last year with the virtual event, but local zones are now part of the nomenclature of the AWS language. >> Yes. >> And we know what a region is, right? So regions are regions. What's a local zone? >> When your region's saying new availability zones, and then we're just (chuckles)- >> You got availability zones. Now you got local zones. Take us through the topology, if you will, of how to think about this. >> Right, so a local zone is a fully-managed AWS infrastructure deployment. So it's owned and managed and operated by AWS. And because of that, it offers you the same elasticity, and security, and all of the goodies of the cloud, but it's positioned closer to your end customers or to your own deployment. So it's positioned in the local urban, metropolitan or industrial center closer to you. So if you think about the U.S., for example, we have a few regions, like, in the East Coast and in the West Coast, but now, we're basically extending these regions, and we're bringing more and more services to 15 cities. So if you are in Miami, there is a local zone there. If you are in LA, there is two locals zones actually in LA. That enables customers to run two different types of workloads. One is these distributed clouds or distributed Edge kind of workload that we've been hearing more and more about. Think of gaming, for example, right? Like, we have customers that are, like Supercell, that need to be closer to the gamers, wherever they are. So they're going to be using a bunch of local zones to deploy. And also, we have these hyper-local use cases, where we're talking, for example, about Netflix that are enabling in LA their creative artists to connect locally and get like as low as single millisecond latencies. So local zone is like an availability zone, but it's closer to you. It offers the same scalability, the same elasticity, the same security and the same services as the AWS cloud. And it connects back to the regions to offer you the full breadth of the platform. >> So just to clarify, so the Edge strategy essentially is to bring the cloud, AWS, the primitives, the APIs, to where the customers are in instances where they either can't move or won't move their resources into the cloud, or there's no connectivity? >> Right, we have a bunch of use cases where customers either need to be there because of regulation or because of some data gravity, so data is being generated in a specific place and you need to locally process it, or we'll have customers in this distributed use case. But I think that you're pointing out a very important thing, which is a common factor across all of these offerings. It's it is the cloud. It's not like a copycat of the cloud. It's the same API. It's the same services that you already know and use, et cetera. So extending the cloud rather than copying it around is our vision, and getting those customers who, well, connectivity obviously needs to be there. We were offering AWS Private 5G. We talked about it yesterday. >> Now, a premise that we've had is that a lot of Edge use cases will be driven by AI inferencing. And so... First of all, is that a reasonable premise, that's growing, we think, very quickly, and it has huge potential. What does the compute, if that's the correct premise, what does the compute look like for that type of workload? >> That is a great premise, and that's why we think that the model that we're offering is so powerful, because you have the Edge and the cloud fully cooperating and being connected together. You know, the Edge is a resource that's more limited than the full cloud in the AWS region. So when you're doing inferencing, what you really want to do is you want to train your models back up in the region where you get more scalability and the best prices. You know, you have the full scale of AWS. But for the latency-sensitive parts of your applications, you want to push those to the Edge. So when you're doing the actual inferencing, not the training of the models- >> Real time. Yeah. >> Real time, you push that to the Edge, whether that's if your connectivity is 5G, you can push that into a Wavelength zone. If your connectivity is wired, you can push it into a local zone. If you really need it to be in your data center, you can push it in your Outposts. So you see how our kind of like building out for all of those use cases. >> But in those instances, I'm interested in what the compute looks like, 'cause I presume it's got to be low power, low cost, super high performance. I mean, all of those things that are good for data-driven workloads. >> Right, the power, if we think here, is the same compute that you know and love in the cloud. So the same EC2 instance types, the EBS volumes, the S3 for storage, or RDS for your databases and EMR clusters. You can use the same service. And the compute is the same powerful all the way down from the hardware up to the service. >> And is the promise to customers that eventually those... It's not all of those services, right? I mean, you go to Outposts today, it continues to grow. >> Continuing to grow, yeah. Right, so but conceptually, as many services you could possibly push to the Edge, you intend to do so? >> We are pushing services according to customer requests, but also there is a nuance here. The nuance is that you push down the services that are truly latency-sensitive. You don't need to push everything down to the Edge when you're talking about latency- >> Like, what's an example of what you wouldn't push down? >> So management tools, right? So when you're doing monitoring and management, yeah, you don't need these to be at the Edge. You can do that, and you can scale that. Or, you know, batch processing, it doesn't have to be at the Edge because it's, by definition, not online, not like a latency service. So we're keeping those, like AWS Batch, for example, that's in the region because, you know, that's where customers really use it. But things like EC2, EBS, EMR, we're pushing those to the Edge because those are more- >> We got two minutes left. I want to get the Outposts kind of update. I remember when Outposts launched. It was really a seminal moment for re:Invent. Hybrid. "Oh, Andy Jassy said hybrid." Yeah. "I'll never say hybrid." But now hybrid's kind of translated into all cloud operations. Now you got local zones. A lot's changed from Amazon Web Services standpoint since Outposts launched. Local zones, things are happening. 5G, DISH. Now what's the status of Outposts? Are you guys happy with it? What has it morphed into? Is it still the same game? What is Outposts today, vis-a-vis what people may think it is or isn't? >> Yeah, we've been focusing in what we're talking about, building out a number of services that customers request, but also being in more and more places. So I think we're in more than 60, now, countries with Outposts. We've seen very good adoption. We've seen very good feedback. You know, half of my EBCs have been on Outposts, but this year, I think that one of the most exciting announcements were the Outposts servers. So the smaller form factors that enable an additional use cases, like for example, retail or even building your 5G networks. You know, one of our partners, Mavenir, is moving their 5G core, so the smarts of the network that does all the routing, on Outposts servers, and we can distribute those all over the place. So, we're keeping on the innovation. We're keeping on the expansion. And we've been getting very good customer feedback- >> So all steam ahead, full steam ahead? >> Full steam ahead plus 10%. (John laughs) >> All right, guys. Thank you so much, George. Really appreciate it. We're seeing the cloud expand. The definition is growing, kind of like the universe, John. Dave Vellante for John John Furrier. You're watching "theCube" at AWS re:Invent, the leader in high tech coverage globally. We'll be right back.

>>Hey, welcome back everyone to the cubes coverage of eaters reinvent 2021. So our third day wall-to-wall coverage. I'm my coach, Dave Alonzo. He we're getting all the action two sets in person. It's also a virtual hybrid events with a lot of great content online, bringing you all the fresh voices, all the knowledge, all the news and all the action and got great guests here today. As your renderer, managing director of AWS is Europe, middle east, and Africa also known as EMIA. Welcome to the cube. Welcome, >>Welcome. Thanks for coming on. Lovely to be here. >>So Europe is really hot. Middle east Africa. Great growth. The VC culture in Europe specifically has been booming this year. A lot of great action. We've done many cube gigs out there talking to folks, uh, entrepreneurship, cloud, native growth, and then for us it's global. It's awesome. So first question got to ask you is, is you're new to AWS? What brought you here? >>Yeah, no, John, thank you so much. I've been here about three and a half months now, actually. Um, so what brought me here? Um, I have been in and around the tech world since I was a baby. Um, my father was an entrepreneur. I sold fax machines and microfilm equipment in my early days. And then my career has spanned technology in some form or the other. I was at EMC when we bought VMware. Uh, I was a Colt when we did a FinTech startup joined Schneider in my background, which is industrial tech. So I guess I'm a bit of a tech nerd, although I'm not an engineer, that's for sure. The other thing is I've spent a huge part of my career advising clients. And so while I was at McKinsey on business transformation and cloud keeps coming up, especially post pandemic, huge, huge, huge enabler, right of transformation. So when I got the call from AWS, I thought here's my opportunity to finally take what companies are wrestling with, bring together a pioneer in cloud with our enterprise and start-up and SMB clients connect those dots between business and technology and make things happen. So it real magic. So that's what brought me here. And I guess the only other thing to say is I'd heard a lot of other culture, customer mash, obsession, and leadership principles. >>That's why I'm here. It's been a great success. I got to ask you too, now that your new ostium McKinsey, even seeing the front lines, all the transformation, the pandemic has really forced everybody globally to move faster. Uh, things like connect were popular in EMEA. How, how is that going out? There's at the same kind of global pressure on the digital transformation with cloud? What are you seeing out there? >>I've been traveling since I joined, uh, around 10 of the countries already. So Ben planes, trains, automobiles, and what you definitely see is massive acceleration. And I think it's around reinvention of the business. So people are adopting cloud because it's obviously there's cost reasons. There's MNA reasons. There's really increasingly more about innovating. How do I innovate my business? How do I reinvent my business? So you see that constantly. Um, and whether you're a enterprise company or you're a startup, they're all adopting cloud in different, different ways. Um, I mean, I want to tell a core to stack because it's really interesting. And Adam mentioned this in his keynote five to 15% only of workloads have moved to the cloud. So there's a tremendous runway ahead of us. Um, and the three big things on people's minds helped me become a tech company. So it doesn't matter who you are, you're retail, whether you're life sciences or healthcare. You've probably heard about the Roche, uh, work that we're doing with Roche around accelerating R and D with data, or if you're a shoes Addie desk, how do you accelerate again, your personalized experiences? So it doesn't matter who you have helped me become a tech company, give me skills, digital skills, and then help me become a more sustainable company. Those are the three big things I'm thinking of. >>So a couple of things to unpack there. So think about it. Transformation. We still have a long way to go to your point, whatever 10, 15%, depending on which numbers you look at. We've been talking a lot in the cube about the next decade around business transformation, deeper business integration, and the four smarts to digital. And the woke us up to that, accelerated that as you say, so as you travel around to customers in AMEA, what are you hearing with regard to that? I mean, many customers maybe didn't have time to plan. Now they can sit back and take what they've learned. What are you hearing? >>Yeah. And it's, it's a little bit different in different places, right? So, I mean, if you start, if you look at, uh, you know, our businesses, for example, in France, if you look at our businesses in Iberia or Italy, a lot of them are now starting they're on the, at least on the enterprise front, they are now starting to adopt cloud. So they stepping back and thinking about their overall strategy, right? And then the way that they're doing it is actually they're using data as the first trigger point. And I think that makes it easier to migrate because if you, if you look at large enterprises and if you think of the big processes that they've got and all the mainframes and everything that they need to do, if you S if you look at it as one big block, it's too difficult. But when you think about data, you can actually start to aggregate all of your data into one area and then start to analyze and unpack that. >>So I think what I'm seeing for sure is in those countries, data is the first trigger. If you go out to Israel, well that you've got all, it's really start up nation as you know, right. And then we've got more of the digital natives and they want to, you know, absorb all of the innovation that we're throwing at them. And you've heard a lot here at reinvent on some of the things, whether it's digital twins or robotics, or frankly, even using 5g private network, we've just announcement. They are adopting innovation and really taking that in. So it really does differ, but I think the one big message I would leave you with is bringing industry solutions to business is critical. So rather than just talking it and technology, we've got to be able to bring some of what we've done. So for example, the Goldman Sachs financial cloud, bring that to the rest of financial services companies and the media, or if you take the work we're doing on industrials and IOT. So it's really about connecting what industry use cases with. >>What's interesting about the Goldman Dave and I were commenting. I think we coined the term, the story we wrote on Thursday last week, and then PIP was Sunday superclouds because you look at the rise of snowflake and Databricks and Goldman Sachs. You're going to start to see people building on AWS and building these super clouds because they are taking unique platform features of AWS and then sacrificing it for their needs, and then offering that as a service. So there's kind of a whole nother tier developing in the natural evolution of clouds. So the partners are on fire right now because the creativity, the market opportunities are there to be captured. So you're seeing this opportunity recognition, opportunity, capture vibe going on. And it's interesting. I'd love to get your thoughts on how you see that, because certainly the VCs are here in force. I did when I saw all the top Silicon valley VCs here, um, and some European VCs are all here. They're all seeing this. >>So pick up on two things you mentioned that I think absolutely spot on. We're absolutely seeing with our partners, this integration on our platform is so important. So we talk about the power of three, which is you bring a JSI partner, you bring an ISV partner, you bring AWS, you create that power of three and you take it to our customers. And it doesn't matter which industry we are. Our partner ecosystem is so rich. The Adam mentioned, we have a hundred thousand partners around the world, and then you integrate that with marketplace. Um, and the AWS marketplace just opens the world. We have about 325,000 active customers on marketplace. So sassiphy cation integration with our platform, bringing in the GSI and the NSIs. I think that's the real power to, to, to coming back to your point on transformation on the second one, the unicorns, you know, it's interesting. >>So UK France, um, Israel, Mia, I spent a lot of time, uh, recently in Dubai and you can see it happening there. Uh, Africa, Nigeria, South Africa, I mean all across those countries, you're saying huge amount of VC funding going in towards developers, towards startups to at scale-ups more and more of a, um, our startup clients, by the way, uh, are actually going IPO. You know, initially it used to be a lot of M and a and strategic acquisitions, but they have actually bigger aspirations and they're going IPO and we've seen them through from when they were seed or pre-seed all the way to now that they are unicorns. Right? So that there's just a tremendous amount happening in EMEA. Um, and we're fueling that, you know, you know, I mean, born in the cloud is easy, right? In terms of what AWS brings to the table. >>Well, I've been sacred for years. I always talked to Andy Jassy about this. Cause he's a big sports nut. When you bring like these stadiums to certain cities that rejuvenates and Amazon regions are bringing local rejuvenation around the digital economies. And what you see with the startup culture is the ecosystems around it. And Silicon valley thrives because you have all the service providers, you have all the fear of failure goes away. There's support systems. You start to see now with AWS as ecosystem, that same ecosystem support the robustness of it. So, you know, it's classic, rising tide floats all boats kind of vibe. So, I mean, we don't really have our narrative get down on this, but we're seeing this ecosystem kind of play going on. Yeah. >>And actually it's a real virtuous circle, or we call flywheel right within AWS because a startup wants to connect to an enterprise. An enterprise wants to connect to a startup, right? A lot of our ISV partners, by the way, were startups. Now they've graduated and they're like very large. So what we are, I see our role. And by the way, this is one of the other reasons I came here is I see our role to be able to be real facilitators of these ecosystems. Right. And, you know, we've got something that we kicked off in EMEA, which I'm really proud of called our EMEA startup loft accelerator. And we launched that a web summit. And the idea is to bring startups into our space virtually and physically and help them build and help them make those connections. So I think really, I really do think, and I enterprise clients are asking us all the time, right? Who do I need to involve if I'm thinking IOT, who do I need to involve if I want to do something with data. And that's what we do. Super connectors, >>John, you mentioned the, the Goldman deal. And I think it was Adam in his keynote was talking about our customers are asking us to teach them how to essentially build a Supercloud. I mean, our words. But so with your McKinsey background, I would imagine there's real opportunities there, especially as you, I hear you talk about IMIA going around to see customers. There must be a lot of, sort of non-digital businesses that are now transforming to digital. A lot of capital needs there, but maybe you could talk about sort of how you see that playing out over the next several years in your role and AWS's role in affecting that transfer. >>Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, you're right actually. And I, you know, maybe I will, from my past experience pick up on something, you know, I was in the world of industry, uh, with Schneider as an example. And, you know, we did business through the channel. Um, and a lot of our channel was not digitized. You know, you had point of sale, electrical distributors, wholesalers, et cetera. I think all of those businesses during the pandemic realized that they had to go digital and online. Right. And so they started from having one fax machine in a store. Real literally I'm not kidding nothing else to actually having to go online and be able to do click and collect and various other things. And we were able with AWS, you can spin up in minutes, right. That sort of service, right. I love the fact that you have a credit card you can get onto our cloud. >>Right. That's the whole thing. And it's about instances. John Adam talked about instances, which I think is great. How do businesses transform? And again, I think it's about unpacking the problem, right? So what we do a lot is we sit down with our customers and we actually map a migration journey with them, right? We look across their core infrastructure. We look at their SAP systems. For example, we look at what's happening in the various businesses, their e-commerce systems, that customer life cycle value management systems. I think you've got to go business by business by business use case by use case, by use case, and then help our technology enable that use case to actually digitize. And whether it's front office or back office. I think the advantages are pretty clear. It's more, I think the difficulty is not technology anymore. The difficulty is mindset, leadership, commitment, the operating model, the organizational model and skills. And so what we have to do is AWS is bringing not only our technology, but our culture of innovation and our digital innovation teams to help our clients on that journey >>Technology. Well, we really appreciate you taking the time coming on the cube. We have a couple more minutes. I do want to get into what's your agenda. Now that you're got you're in charge, got the landscape and the 20 mile stare in front of you. Cloud's booming. You got some personal passion projects. Tell us what your plans are. >>So, um, three or four things, right? Three or four, really big takeaways for me is one. I, I came here to help make sure our customers could leverage the power of the cloud. So I will not feel like my job's been done if I haven't been able to do that. So, you know, that five to 15% we talked about, we've got to go 50, 60, 70%. That that's, that's the goal, right? And why not a hundred percent at some point, right? So I think over the next few years, that's the acceleration we need to help bring in AMEA Americas already started to get there as you know, much more, and we need to drive that into me. And then eventually our APJ colleagues are going to do the same. So that's one thing. The other is we talked about partners. I really want to accelerate and expand our partner ecosystem. >>Um, we have actually a huge growth by the way, in the number of partners signing up the number of certifications they're taking, I really, really want to double down on our partners and actually do what they ask us for, which is join. Co-sell joined marketing globalization. So that's two, I think the third big thing is when you mentioned industry industry industry, we've got to bring real use cases and solutions to our customers and not only talk technology got to connect those two dots. And we have lots of examples to bring by the way. Um, and then for hire and develop the best, you know, we've got a new LP as you know, to strive to be at its best employer. I want to do that in a Mia. I want to make sure we can actually do that. We attract, we retain and we grow and we develop that. >>And the diversity has been a huge theme of this event. It's front and center in virtually every company. >>I am. I'm usually passionate about diversity. I'm proud actually that when I was back at Schneider, I launched something called the power women network. We're a network of a hundred senior women and we meet every month. I've also got a podcast out there. So if anyone's listening, it's called power. Women's speak. It is, I've done 16 over the pandemic with CEOs of women podcast, our women speak >>Or women speak oh, >>And Spotify and >>Everything else. >>And, um, you know, what I love about what we're doing is AWS on diversity and you heard Adam onstage, uh, talk to this. We've got our restock program where we really help under employed and unemployed to get a 12 week intensive course and get trained up on thought skills. And the other thing is, get it helping young girls, 12 to 15, get into stem. So lots of different things on the whole, but we need to do a lot more of course, on diversity. And I look forward to helping our clients through that as well. >>Well, we had, we had the training VP on yesterday. It's all free trainings free. >>We've got such a digital skills issue that I love that we've said 29 million people around the world, free cloud training. >>Literally the th the, the gap there between earnings with cloud certification, you can be making six figures like with cloud training. So, I mean, it's really easy. It's free. It's like, it's such a great thing. >>Have you seen the YouTube video on Charlotte Wilkins? Donald's fast food. She changed her mind. She wanted to take Korea. She now has a tech career as a result of being part of restock. Awesome. >>Oh, really appreciate. You got a lot of energy and love, love the podcast. I'm subscribing. I'm going to listen. We love doing the podcast as well. So thanks for coming on the >>Queue. Thank you so much for having me >>Good luck on anemia and your plans. Thank you. Okay. Cube. You're watching the cube, the leader in global tech coverage. We go to the events and extract the signal from the noise. I'm John furrier with Dave, a lot to here at re-invent physical event in person hybrid event as well. Thanks for watching.

>>Welcome to this cube conversation with 40 net. I'm your host. Lisa Martin, Derek Minky is back. He's the chief security insights and global threat alliances at 40 minutes, 40 guard labs, Derek. Welcome back to the program. >>Likewise, we've talked a lot this year. And of course, when I saw that there are, uh, you guys have predictions from 40 guard labs, global threat intelligence and research team about the cyber threat landscape for 2022. I thought it was going to be a lot to talk about with Derek here. So let's go ahead and dig. Right in. First of all, one of the things that caught my attention was the title of the press release about the predictions that was just revealed. The press release says 40 guard labs, predict cyber attacks aimed at everything from crypto wallets to satellite internet, nothing. There is no surface that is safe anymore. Talk to me about some of the key challenges that organizations in every industry are facing. >>Yeah, absolutely. So this is a, as you said, you, you had the keyword there surface, right? That, and that attack surface is, is open for attack. That's the attack surface that we talk about it is literally be pushed out from the edge to space, like a lot of these places that had no connection before, particularly in OT environments off grid, we're talking about, uh, you know, um, uh, critical infrastructure, oil and gas, as an example, there's a lot of these remote units that were living out there that relied on field engineers to go in and, uh, you know, plug into them. They were air gapped, those such low. Those are the things that are going to be accessible by Elio's low earth orbit satellites. And there are 4,000 of those out there right now. There's going to be over 30,000. We're talking Starlink, we're talking at least four or five other competitors entering this space, no pun intended. And, um, and that's a big deal because that it's a gateway. It opens the door for cyber criminals to be able to have accessibility to these networks. And so security has to come, you know, from, uh, friends of mine there, right. >>It absolutely does. We've got this fragmented perimeter tools that are siloed, the expand and very expanded attack surface, as you just mentioned, but some of the other targets, the 5g enabled edge, the core network, of course, the home environment where many of us still are. >>Yeah, yeah, definitely. So that home environment like the edge, it is a, uh, it's, it's the smart edge, right? So we have things called edge access Trojans. These are Trojans that will actually impact and infect edge devices. And if you think about these edge devices, we're talking things that have machine learning and, and auto automation built into them a lot of privilege because they're actually processing commands and acting on those commands in a lot of cases, right? Everything from smart office, smart home option, even until the OT environment that we're talking about. And that is a juicy target for attackers, right? Because these devices naturally have more privileged. They have APIs and connectivity to a lot of these things where they could definitely do some serious damage and be used as these pivot within the network from the edge. Right. And that's, that's a key point there. >>Let's talk about the digital wallet that we all walk around with. You know, we think out so easy, we can do quick, simple transactions with apple wallet, Google smart tab, Venmo, what have you, but that's another growing source of that, where we need to be concerned, right? >>Yeah. So I, I I've, I've worn my cyber security hat for over 20 years and 10 years ago, even we were talking all about online banking Trojans. That was a big threat, right? Because a lot of financial institutions, they hadn't late ruled out things like multifactor authentication. It was fairly easy to get someone's bank credentials go in siphoned fans out of an account. That's a lot harder nowadays. And so cyber criminals are shifting tactics to go after the low hanging fruit, which are these digital wallets and often cryptocurrency, right? We've actually seen this already in 40 guard labs. Some of this is already starting to happen right now. I expect this to happen a lot more in 20, 22 and beyond. And it's because, you know, these wallets are, um, hold a lot of whole lot of value right now, right. With the crypto. And they can be transferred easily without having to do a, like a, you know, EFT is a Meijer transfers and all those sorts of things that includes actually a lot of paperwork from the financial institutions. And, you know, we saw something where they were actually hijacking these wallets, right. Just intercepting a copy and paste command because it takes, you know, it's a 54 character address people aren't typing that in all the time. So when they're sending or receiving funds, they're asking what we've actually seen in malware today is they're taking that, intercepting it and replacing it with the attackers. Well, it's simple as that bypassing all the, you know, authentication measures and so forth. >>And is that happening for the rest of us that don't have a crypto wallet. So is that happening for folks with apple wallets? And is that a growing threat concern that people need to be? It is >>Absolutely. Yeah. So crypto wallets is, is the majority of overseeing, but yeah, no, no digital wallet is it's unpatched here. Absolutely. These are all valid targets and we are starting to see activity in. I am, >>I'm sure going after those stored credentials, that's probably low-hanging fruit for the attackers. Another thing that was interesting that the 2022 predictions threat landscape, uh, highlighted was the e-sports industry and the vulnerabilities there. Talk to me about that. That was something that I found surprising. I didn't realize it was a billion dollar revenue, a year industry, a lot of money, >>A lot of money, a lot of money. And these are our full-blown platforms that have been developed. This is a business, this isn't, you know, again, going back to what we've seen and we still do see the online gaming itself. We've seen Trojans written for that. And oftentimes it's just trying to get into, and user's gaming account so that they can steal virtual equipment and current, you know, there there's virtual currencies as well. So there was some monetization happening, but not on a grand scale. This is about a shift attackers going after a business, just like any organization, big business, right. To be able to hold that hostage effectively in terms of DDoSs threats, in terms of vulnerabilities, in terms of also, you know, crippling these systems with ransomware, like we've already seen starting to hit OT, this is just another big target. Right. Um, and if you think about it, these are live platforms that rely on low latency. So very quick connections, anything that interrupts that think about the Olympics, right on sports environment, it's a big deal to them. And there's a lot of revenue that could be lost in cybercriminals fully realizes. And this is why, you know, we're predicting that e-sports is going to be a, um, a big target for them moving forward. >>Got it. And tell, let's talk about what's going on with brands. So when you and I spoke a few months ago, I think it was ransomware was up nearly 11 X in the first half of a calendar year, 2021. What are you seeing from an evolution perspective, uh, in the actual ransomware, um, actions themselves as well as what the, what the cyber criminals are evolving to. >>Yeah. So to where it's aggressive, destructive, not good words, right. But, but this is what we're seeing with ransomware. Now, again, they're not just going after data as the currency, we're seeing, um, destructive capabilities put into ransomware, including wiper malware. So this used to be just in the realm of, uh, APTT nation state attacks. We saw that with should moon. We saw that with dark soil back in 2013, so destructive threats, but in the world of apt and nation state, now we're seeing this in cyber crime. We're seeing it with ransomware and this, I expect to be a full-blown tactic for cyber criminals simply because they have the, the threat, right. They've already leveraged a lot of extortion and double extortion schemes. We've talked about that. Now they're going to be onboarding this as a new threat, basically planting these time bombs. He's ticking time bombs, holding systems for, for, for ransom saying, and probably crippling a couple of, to show that they mean business and saying, unless you pay us within a day or two, we're going to take all of these systems offline. We're not just going to take them offline. We're going to destroy them, right. That's a big incentive for people to, to, to pay up. So they're really playing on that fear element. That's what I mean about aggressive, right? They're going to be really shifting tactics, >>Aggressive and destructive, or two things you don't want in a cybersecurity environment or to be called by your employer. Just wanted to point that out. Talk to me about wiper malware. Is this new emerging, or is this something that's seeing a resurgence because this came up at the Olympics in the summer, right? >>Absolutely. So a resurgence in, in a sort of different way. Right. So, as I said, we have seen it before, but it's been not too prevalent. It's been very, uh, it's, it's been a niche area for them, right. It's specifically for these very highly targeted attack. So yes, the Olympics, in fact, two times at the Olympics in Tokyo, but also in the last summer Olympics as well. We also saw it with, as I mentioned in South Korea at dark school in 2013, we saw it an OT environment with the moon as an example, but we're talking handfuls here. Uh, unfortunately we have blogged about three of these in the last month to month and a half. Right. And that, and you know, this is starting to be married with ransomware, which is particularly a very dangerous cause it's not just my wiper malware, but couple that with the ransom tactics. >>And that's what we're starting to see is this new, this resurgent. Yes. But a completely new form that's taking place. Uh, even to the point I think in the future that it could, it could severely a great, now what we're seeing is it's not too critical in a sense that it's not completely destroying the system. You can recover the system still we're talking to master boot records, those sorts of things, but in the future, I think they're going to be going after the formal firmware themselves, essentially turning some of these devices into paperweights and that's going to be a very big problem. >>Wow. That's a very scary thought that getting to the firmware and turning those devices into paperweights. One of the things also that the report talked about that that was really interesting. Was that more attacks against the supply chain and Linux, particularly talk to us about that. What did you find there? What does it mean? What's the threat for organizations? >>Yeah. So we're seeing a diversification in terms of the platforms that cyber criminals are going after. Again, it's that attack surface, um, lower hanging fruit in a sense, uh, because they've, you know, for a fully patched versions of windows, 10 windows 11, it's harder, right. For cyber criminals than it was five or 10 years ago to get into those systems. If we look at the, uh, just the prevalence, the amount of devices that are out there in IOT and OT environments, these are running on Linux, a lot of different flavors and forms of Linux, therefore this different security holes that come up with that. And that's, that's a big patch management issue as an example too. And so this is what we, you know, we've already seen it with them or I bought net and this was in our threat landscape report, or I was the number one threat that we saw. And that's a Linux-based bot net. Now, uh, Microsoft has rolled out something called WSL, which is a windows subsystem for Linux and windows 10 and windows 11, meaning that windows supports Linux now. So that all the code that's being written for botnets, for malware, all that stuff is able to run on, on new windows platforms effectively. So this is how they're trying to expand their, uh, attack surface. And, um, that ultimately gets into the supply chain because again, a lot of these devices in manufacturing and operational technology environments rely quite heavily actually on Linux. >>Well, and with all the supply chain issues that we've been facing during the pandemic, how can organizations protect themselves against this? >>Yeah. So this, this is a big thing, right? And we talked about also the weaponization of artificial intelligence, automation and all of these, there's a lot going on as you know, right from the threats a lot to get visibility on a lot, to be able to act quickly on that's a big key metric. There is how quick you can detect these and respond to them for that. You need good threat intelligence, of course, but you also truly need to enable, uh, uh, automation, things like SD wan, a mesh architecture as well, or having a security fabric that can actually integrate devices that talk to each other and can detect these threats and respond to them quickly. That's a very important piece because if you don't stop these attacks well, they're in that movement through the attack chain. So the kill chain concept we talk about, um, the risk is very high nowadays where, you know, everything we just talked about from a ransomware and destructive capabilities. So having those approaches is very important. Also having, um, you know, education and a workforce trained up is, is equally as important to, to be, you know, um, uh, to, to be aware of these threats. >>I'm glad you brought up that education piece and the training, and that's something that 49 is very dedicated to doing, but also brings up the cybersecurity skills gap. I know when I talked with Kenzie, uh, just a couple months ago at the, um, PGA tournament, it was talking about, you know, big investments in what 40 guard, 40, 40 net is doing to help reduce that gap. But the gap is still there. How do I teach teams not get overloaded with the expanding service? It seems like the surface, the surface has just, there is no limit anymore. So how does, how does it teams that are lean and small help themselves in the fact that the threat is landscape is, is expanding. The criminals are getting smarter or using AI intelligent automation, what our it teams do >>Like fire with fire. You got to use two of the same tools that they're using on their side, and you need to be able to use in your toolkit. We're talking about a security operation center perspective to have tools like, again, this comes to the threat intelligence to get visibility on these things. We're talking Simmons, sor uh, we have, you know, 40 AI out now, uh, deception products, all these sorts of things. These are all tools that need that, that, uh, can help, um, those people. So you don't have to have a, you know, uh, hire 40 or 50 people in your sock, right? It's more about how you can work together with the tools and technology to get, have escalation paths to do more people, process procedure, as we talk about to be able to educate and train on those, to be able to have incident response planning. >>So what do you do like, because inevitably you're going to be targeted, probably interacts where attack, what do you do? Um, playing out those scenarios, doing breach and attack simulation, all of those things that comes down to the skills gaps. So it's a lot about that education and awareness, not having to do that. The stuff that can be handled by automation and AI and, and training is you're absolutely right. We've dedicated a lot with our NSC program at 49. We also have our 40 net security academy. Uh, you know, we're integrating with those secondary so we can have the skillsets ready, uh, for, for new graduates. As an example, there's a lot of progress being made towards that. We've even created a new powered by 40 guard labs. There is a 40 guard labs play in our NSC seven as an example, it's, uh, you know, for, um, uh, threat hunting and offensive security as an example, understanding really how attackers are launching their, their campaigns and, um, all those things come together. But that's the good news actually, is that we've come a long way. We actually did our first machine learning and AI models over 10 years ago, Lisa, this isn't something new to us. So the technology has gone a long way. It's just a matter of how we can collaborate and obviously integrate with that for the, on the skills gap. >>And one more question on the actual threat landscape, were there any industries that came up in particular, as we talked about e-sports we talked about OT and any industries that came up in particular as, as really big hotspots that companies and organizations really need to be aware of. >>Yeah. So also, uh, this is part of OT about ICS critical infrastructure. That's a big one. Uh, absolutely there we're seeing, uh, also cyber-criminals offering more crime services now on dark web. So CAS, which is crime as a service, because it used to be a, again, a very specialized area that maybe only a handful of organized criminal organizations could actually, um, you know, launch attacks and, and impact to those targets where they're going after those targets. Now they're offering services right on to other coming cyber criminals, to be able to try to monetize that as well. Again, we're seeing this, we actually call it advanced persistent cybercrime APC instead of an apt, because they're trying to take cyber crime to these targets like ICS, critical infrastructure, um, healthcare as well is another one, again, usually in the realm of APMT, but now being targeted more by cybercriminals in ransomware, >>I've heard of ransomware as a service, is that a subcategory of crime as a service? >>Absolutely. Yeah. It is phishing as a service ransomware as, and service DDoSs as a service, but not as, as many of these subcategories, but a ransomware as a service. That's a, another big problem as well, because this is an affiliate model, right. Where they hire partners and pay them commission, uh, if they actually get payments of ransom, right? So they have literally a middle layer in this network that they're pushing out to scale their attacks, >>You know, and I think that's the last time we talked about ransomware, we talked about it's a matter of, and I talk to customers all the time who say, yes, it's a matter of when, not, if, is, is this the same sentiment? And you think for crime as a service in general, the attacks on e-sports on home networks, on, uh, internet satellites in space, is this just a matter of when, not if across the board? >>Well, yeah, absolutely. Um, you know, but the good news is it doesn't have to be a, you know, when it happens, it doesn't have to be a catastrophic situation. Again, that's the whole point about preparedness and planning and all the things I talked about, the filling the skills gap in education and having the proper, proper tools in place that will mitigate that risk. Right. And that's, and that's perfectly acceptable. And that's the way we should handle this from the industry, because we process we've talked about this, people are over a hundred billion threats a day in 40 guard labs. The volume is just going to continue to grow. It's very noisy out there. And there's a lot of automated threats, a lot of attempts knocking on organizations, doors, and networks, and, you know, um, phishing emails being sent out and all that. So it's something that we just need to be prepared for just like you do for a natural disaster planning and all these sorts of other things in the physical world. >>That's a good point. It doesn't have to be aggressive and destructive, but last question for you, how can, how is 4d guard helping companies in every industry get aggressive and disruptive against the threats? >>Yeah. Great, great, great question. So this is something I'm very passionate about, uh, as you know, uh, where, you know, we, we don't stop just with customer protection. Of course, that is as a security vendor, that's our, our primary and foremost objective is to protect and mitigate risk to the customers. That's how we're doing. You know, this is why we have 24 7, 365 operations at 40 guy labs. Then we're helping to find the latest and greatest on threat intelligence and hunting, but we don't stop there. We're actually working in the industry. Um, so I mentioned this before the cyber threat Alliance to, to collaborate and share intelligence on threats all the way down to disrupt cybercrime. This is what big target of ours is, how we can work together to disrupt cyber crime. Because unfortunately they've made a lot of money, a lot of profits, and we need to reduce that. We need to send a message back and fight that aggressiveness and we're we're on it, right? So we're working with Interpol or project gateway with the world economic forum, the partnership against cyber crime. It's a lot of initiatives with other, uh, you know, uh, the, uh, the who's who of cyber security in the industry to work together and tackle this collaboratively. Um, the good news is there's been some steps of success to that. There's a lot more, we're doing the scale of the efforts. >>Excellent. Well, Derek as always great and very informative conversation with you. I always look forward to these seeing what's going on with the threat landscape, the challenges, the increasing challenges, but also the good news, the opportunities in it, and what 40 guard is doing 40 left 40 net, excuse me, I can't speak today to help customers address that. And we always appreciate your insights and your time we look forward to talking to you and unveiling the next predictions in 2022. >>All right. Sounds good. Thanks, Lisa. >>My pleasure for Derek manky. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching this cube conversation with 40 net. Thanks for watching.

>>Hi, everyone. Welcome back to the cubes coverage of splunk.com, virtual 2021. I'm John Ford, your host of the cube. We're here with Teresa Carlson, special guests cube alumni. Who's now the president and chief growth officer of Splunk. Teresa, welcome back to the queue. >>So glad you're here with us >>As the president of Splunk. Great to see you. Great to see you. So we've had many conversations in the queue. When you were the chief of public sector of Amazon web services, you grew that business significantly over the years. We've documented on the cube and we've talked about I've written about it. Um, now Splunk, it feels a lot like AWS was back in LA a couple of years ago, where you have this amazing product everyone's using. They don't lose customers. They're getting customers they're in the middle of the security thing, which you know a lot about, and they have this large enterprise base growing. It's just a minute. Grazer leaning in Splunk is, seems to be going to the next level. >>Totally. Well, you nailed it. I would say we're definitely in a scale mode at this point at Splunk. And also to your point, our customers are so loyal to us and we're seeing actually customers with more than a million dollars doubling their spend almost with us. Uh, it's pretty cool. And now we have this cloud portfolio, which is one of my jobs, as you know, I love, I've got my cloud shirt on. I've been believer in cloud. I'm a real believer. You know, I saw the transformational effects of cloud in real time, over 11 years and bringing that here even more to utilize that in our security and observability spaces is quite phenomenal. And then you see again in a much more, uh, set of segmented workloads, how customers take advantage of this. And of course today, like no other John security is just top of mind. It's always been you and I talked earlier about how security kind of evolved over the years and public sector led some of that over time. And then commercial industry say, you know, wow, that today it's, I mean, it's more than top of mind for not just every enterprise organization and government entity, but it's also every board out there. It's something that we think about internal threat, external threat. How do we manage it? How do we get the data around it to understand it? And then how do we take action on it? >>I seen you up on stage as a senior leader here at Splunk, um, at the virtual venue at a great keynote was a lot of news. And we'll get into that in a second, but I want to ask you, knowing you personally and covering you over the years of Amazon web services, you've been a fierce competitor. Okay. But you also have been a great people, person, people loved working for you, Splunk, is it the same? We've been covering them just as long as we cover an ADFS. The culture seemed to fit because Splunk is kind of competitive, but they're kind of quiet, competitive culture. Yeah. Interesting. Tell us about, tell us about your experience. >>Well, and I think we can, yeah, we can do it in our own Spanky way. I'm learning new it's six minutes today that I've been as blind quiches and believable that I've been here this long already, but, uh, Splunk has a very quirky culture, which I led. They have a lot of fan. They have a big following and I'm so sorry that everyone couldn't attend in person, but the virtual social media feeds are off the charts. I mean, I'm just, I'm having so much fencing high already. They come together. It's a real community, but, uh, yeah, on the competition front, here's what reminds me so much about my old world is that I always love that when somebody wakes up and realizes that it's a huge industry and they want to participate. And that's kind of what happened when I was at AWS and now it's blank. >>I'm like, Hey, all these companies are waking up and saying, data's this real thing. It's like a $90 billion plus industry and growing, and then data with security. Hello, are you kidding me? So I feel like really that's kind of what's happened. And Splunk has such a unique set of tools and solutions that just work, they work. And that's what customers, I have heard that statement from customers and partners so much that it just works. And the other thing that's pretty unique about us, I would say John is our ability to navigate between an on-prem world and a cloud world in a unique set of areas like IOT, edge computing. So wherever customer's data is multiple clouds, we're able to take advantage of that for the customer. So they make the choice of where that data comes from and they use the splint tooling then to be able to get those insights and information >>Well, great to have you on the Cuban grid, that's swung to have you, and they're going to be lucky to have you going to do a lot stuff, knowing you and knowing the Splunk community and the team here. A great team. Now talking about the announcements, look at what's going on. Obviously security is still in everything. Yep. A couple of things, rebranding of the partner versus sends a huge message of the ecosystem. You know, that movie you've seen that movie before, um, digital journey for customer success. Again, they have tons of customers that have been with them from beginning and new customers, but they've got to go government action going on here. Whereas you know, a lot about the government logging in monetization program. >>Yeah. Well, as you know, the government, uh, you got 11, but they do continually come up with N fended mandates. And my government customers always have said, oh my gosh, I've got another unfunded mandate. So we're really helping them at that because yes, while it's infested in this budget this year, as it states, they know how important it is. And I do think this initiative is something that is going to have a waterfall effect into the commercial industries. Also just like a lot of these things do and around security, uh, but it's important that we help our government customer made as best as they can. So we've come up with, I think, a very unique offering that they can take advantage of for Splunk and we're going to be out there helping them every way. And, and hopefully John L also helped them learn more about cross governmental, what they're doing and how they can understand from their logs and metrics even more about how to protect. Yes. >>One of the things that we've talked about before in the past, but how cloud-scale, and as creates ecosystems, Amazon VMware, you seeing all these ecosystems that have been thriving for, for decades, Splunk has an ecosystem developing very, very fast. Their partners are, are loyal and they're making money with them. And they're being delivered solutions as data becomes the new enablement. How do you see the role of the partners that growing? How do you see them evolving over time? >>Well, let me just tell you, I'm, I'm a real believer in the partner community. I mean, firsthand over the years, my time at Microsoft at AWS, I saw it as an unbelievable force multiplier to your business. And I mean that, and they do things that you don't even think of. I, you know, I'm always amazed at partners. I'm like, oh, you're using the tool for that. Wow. So while we are broadly good, we're, we're very good at what we do, but we cannot understand every horizontal or vertical industry out there. And the reason it's important to have partners, they can take you to places that you never dreamed. And for us, if you look at the categories, we need our CSP or cloud service providers to be able to really help us make sure that we take advantage of the cloud platforms that are out there and our primary, we AWS, and then Google cloud. >>Uh, and then after that we work, we work with both those a migration. You saw Steve Schmidt today. Good friend of mine love Steve. And the work we're doing. And you saw, we were one of the first migration partners with AWS. You'll see us continue that program. We'll work together to continue to look for security services jointly that we can offer. And we're a customer of theirs. They're a customer of ours. It makes a good partnership. And then additionally, you have, uh, you have your MSPs, right? Your managed service providers. And today we talked about blue buoyant who had multiples, and these are partners out there that have a unique offering for me, generally managed security or observability in the marketplace. They take the Splunk toolkit, they add to it and they have it off, offered out to their customers. Um, and then you have your largest size like Accenture. I'm so excited about that. First of all, led Julie Sweet. She's an amazing CEO and leader. Uh, and w in what they're doing with this, they've been a long-standing partner of ours, but now they've actually made us part of their, one of their 11 business groups. So it's Accenture plus Splunk, and now they'll take us into all of their industries together. So it's huge. And, you know, >>Does that mean cause, cause this is a business deal. This isn't just like a, you know, some sort of deal where you guys saying we're going together. This is a specific division. >>That's right. That's right. So they have a leaven partners that they work with. AWS is one of them. SAP's one of them. Uh, IBM's one of them, Salesforce, I believe is one of them. And they have, they have experts at Accenture that can go into customers to implement tools and services for customers at the enterprise level. And so they have selected. Splunk is one of those business partners that you heard Paul today talk about. We already have 400 customers together and growing, we will expand that, but it's a joint effort of both go-to-market selling and technical resources that will deliver. But for Splunk, again, it's back to that horizontal and vertical slicing where they can take us into security practice that they have chosen. Splunk is one of their security offerings and it's important that we really support them. But also in the splint, a partner verse, we're going to do some new things. >>John, if I just first take and talk about it, we've had a great partner program, but now we're going to Korea's credits, uh, technology, architecture, tooling support, uh, getting in, you know, to certify themselves, to be pro serve ready for those migrations and modernizations. But also really what we heard from a lot of them is they need more training and education remaster to understand our new cloud offerings. And that makes sense. So it's more digital and more cloud oriented with these partners. And then guess what they would love for us to talk about how great they are and we should. So when we get them out there that helps our customers really understand the offerings they have in the marketplace >>At Brooke honeymoon was saying she didn't do a lot more listening and they're working on this next level partner verse. I found that really interesting, all sorts of Katie beyond key. I talked with she's the SVP of customer success, something you're I know you're obsessed about. You always work backwards from the customers as the AWS way. How do you view customer stuff? Because you have a lot of different customers, you have diverse customers. What's important. What are you going to keep Katie's on top of this, but what's your view. >>We ha we do have a lot of different customers. However, we have a concentration of the largest, most important and influential customers in the world. So our customer base is very large enterprise oriented, multiple departments within that enterprise take advantage of Splunk. We work with 90 to the 100 fortune 100 companies, and we've worked with them for a long time. And like I said, we're continuing to see them use more of splice, not less as blank. And the way that that happens is, and I hear from him, I sit and talk to him and they're like, now we're using Splunk in these multiple departments and we need to bring it all together at the enterprise level for the C-suite to look at it. Now, I know it sounds a little strange John, but that's changed a bit over the years. And that is because, you know, if you look at big spenders at an enterprise, he spends a lot of money because they need to at dev, you know, uh, security, right. Security infrastructure, and they need to monitor all that. They need to understand it, but guess what they want, understand it now at the corporate level. And they need it at the CIO, they need at the Cisco level for threat analysis. And then now boards want more and more that information they want to roll up of what's happening. So we're seeing a trend where the C-suite, the senior executives really are much more interested in Splunk. It used to be very departmental. >>I'll throw another wrench in the equation. There is one developers want shifting left. They want real time data security policy in the development, CDC at pipelining. So another problem. Yeah. >>Yeah. And developers lever tools. And again, they're, they're another unique group I should totally talk about. That takes your tools to another level and really fears that ways within their customer set to take advantage of the tooling. >>He's a great to see you. Congratulations on a new opportunity here. And the leadership at Splunk, um, really perfectly poised to take the growth of the cloud. That's. So I have to ask you, what's your mission? What's your mission for the next year as you come on? You're six months in what's the, >>Well, for us, here's blankets, continuing to scale, really listening to our customers and partners. It sounds, I don't want it to sound like a cliche. We really are spending time listening and working back, Sean and I are working. He's their president of technology products and technology. He and I are working very closely to look at features and functionality that we need to be talking about. Uh, it is about taking advantage of the partner community in a way to support them, to help again, get us into new areas of the business. And then lastly, continue to make sure that we have the training and education for customers directly because our tools and technologies are evolving. And if I've learned anything over the last 11 years is cloud is a step change for a lot of customers and they're still hybrid. So it's important that we meet them where they are, but help them get over that bridge so that they have that full digital journey. So that's what you're going to see me focused on. I'm super excited. >>I was talking with Claire, the CMO just before you leave, I want to get your reaction. This event went virtual the last minute. It became a studio here in Silicon valley. You're a media company now Splunk. Yeah. >>It's like it. I mean, it is amazing what we accomplished today. Uh, I, you know, I don't want to pre give numbers, but we had way, way over 20,000 today, online and, uh, growing. So the numbers we're still looking at, but it was unbelievable. And we had, I think we had had like 22,000 registered and we even got more. So people joined in, they stay, they watched the keynote, there were out narrow specialty sessions. And I all agree, like it was pretty cool. It was a step change because we were thinking about doing it in person. We took a pulse and we said, you know, we think we can actually do a better job this year because of COVID steel. If we do it all virtually and it turned out and we have you, so look at this, you're like, we have you here. And I love your cool backdrop here, John. Yeah. >>Well, you guys do a great job. You guys are a media company. Now you're telling your own stories direct. There's a lot of stories to tell. Thank you for coming on the cube. Great to see you >>Again. John's great to see you because the >>Cubes coverage here at.com 2021 virtual I'm John for your host of the cube. Thanks for watching.

(tranquil music) >> Alation was an early pioneer in solving some of the most challenging problems in so-called big data. Founded early last decade, the company's metadata management and data catalog have always been considered leading examples of modern tooling by customers and analysts alike. Governance is one area that customers identified as a requirement to extend their use of Alation's platform. And it became an opportunity for the company to expand its scope and total available market. Alation is doing just that today, announcing new data governance capabilities, and partner integrations that align with the market's direction of supporting federated governance. In other words, a centralized view of policy to accommodate distributed data in this world of an ever expanding data cloud, which we talk about all the time in theCUBE. And with me to discuss these trends and this announcement is Satyen Sangani, who's the CEO and co-founder of Alation. Satyen, welcome back to the CUBE. Good to see you. >> Thank you Dave, It's great to be back. >> Okay, so you heard my open, please tell us about the patterns that you were seeing in the market and what you were hearing from customers that led you in this direction and then we'll get into the announcement. >> Yeah, so I think there are really two patterns, right? I mean, when we started building this notion of a data catalog, as you said a decade ago, there was this idea that metadata management broadly classified was something that belonged in IT, lived in IT and was essentially managed by IT, right? I always liken it to kind of an inventory management system within a warehouse relative to Amazon.com, which has obviously broadly published for the business. And so, with the idea of bringing all of this data directly to the business and allowing people arbitrarily, depending on their role to use the data. You know, you saw one trend, which was just this massive, shift in how much data was available at any given time. I think the other thing that happened was that at the same time, data governance went through a real transitionary phase where there was a lot of demand often spurred by regulations. Whether that's GDPR, CCPA or more recently than that, certainly the Basel accord. And if you think about all of those regulations, people had to get something in a place. Now what we ended up finding out was when we were selling in to add accounts, people would say, well guess what? I've got this data governance thing going on, but nobody's really using it. I built this business glossary, it's been three years. Nothing's been really very effective. And we were never able to get the value and we need to get value because there are so many more people now accessing and using and leveraging the data. And so with that, we started really considering whether or not we needed to build a formal capability in the market. And that's what we're today that we're doing. >> I liked the way you framed that. And if you think back, we were there as you were in the early big day-to-days. And all the talk was about volume, variety and velocity. And those are sort of IT concepts. How do you deal with all these technical challenges? And then the fourth V which you just mentioned was value. And that's where the line of business really comes in. So let's get into the news. What are you announcing today? >> So we're announcing a new application on top of Alation's Catalog platform, which is an Alations data governance application. That application will be released with our 2021.3 release on September 14th. And what's exciting about that is that we are going to now allow customers to discreetly and elegantly and quickly consume a new application to get data governance regimes off the ground and initiatives off the ground, much more quickly than they've ever been able to do. This app is really all about time to value. It's about allowing customers to be able to consume what they need when they need it in order to be able to get successful governance initiatives going. And so that's what we're trying to deliver. >> So maybe you could talk a little bit about how you think about data governance and specifically your data governance approach. And maybe what's different about Alation's solution. >> Yeah, I think there's a couple of things that are different. I think the first thing that's most critically different is that we move beyond this notion of sort of policy declaration into the world of policy application and policy enforcement, right? I think a lot of data governance regimes basically stand up and say, look you know, it's all about people and then process and then technology. And what we need to do is declare who all the governors are and who all the stewards are. And then we're going to get all our policies in the same place and then the business will follow them. And the reality is people don't change their workflows to go off and arbitrarily follow some data governance policy that they don't know exists, or they don't want to actually have to follow up. And so really what you've got to do is make sure that the policy and the knowledge exists as in where the data exists. And that's why it's so critical to build governance into the catalog. And so what we're doing here is we're basically saying, look, you could declare policies with a new policy center inside of Alation. Those policies will get automatically created in some cases by integrating with technologies like Snowflake. But beyond that, what we're also doing is we're saying, look, we're going to move into the world of taking those policies and applying them to the data on an automated basis using ML and AI and basically saying that now it doesn't have to be some massive boil the ocean three-year regime to get very little value in a very limited business loss rate. Rather all of your data sets, all of your terms can be put into a single place on an automated basis. That's constantly being used by people and constantly being updated by the new systems that are coming online. And that's what's exciting about it. >> So I just want to follow up on that. So if I'm hearing you correctly, it's the humans are in the loop, but it's not the only source of policy, right? The machines are assisting. And in some cases managing end-to-end that policy. Is that right? >> You've got it. I think the the biggest challenge with data governance today is that it basically relies a little bit like the Golden Gate Bridge. You know, you start painting it and by the time you're done painting it, you've got to go back and start painting it again, because it relies upon people. And there's just too much change in the weather and there's too much traffic and there's just too much going on in the world of data. And frankly in today's world, that's not even an apt analogy because often what happens is midway through. You've got to restart painting from the very beginning because everything's changed. And so there's so much change in the IT landscape that the traditional way of doing data governance just doesn't work. >> Got it, so in winning through the press release, three things kind of stood out. I wonder if we could unpack them, there were multi-cloud, governance and security. And then of course the AI or what I like to call machine intelligence in there. And what you call the people centric approach. So I wonder if we could dig in into these and help us understand how they fit together. So thinking about multi-cloud governance, how do you think about that? Why is that so challenging and how are you solving that problem? >> Yeah, well every cloud technology provider has its own set of capabilities and platforms. And often those slight differences are causing differences in how those technologies are adopted. And so some teams optimize for certain capabilities and certain infrastructure over others. And that's true even within businesses. And of course, IT teams are also trying to diversify their IT portfolios. And that's another reason to go multi-cloud. So being able to have a governance capability that spans, certainly all of the good grade called megascalers, but also these new, huge emerging platforms like Snowflake of course and others. Those are really critical capabilities that are important for our customers to be able to get a handle on top of. And so this idea of being cloud agnostic and being able to sort of have a single control plane for all of your policies, for all of your data sets, that's a critical must have in a governance regime today. So that's point number one. >> Okay and then the machine learning piece, the AI, you're obviously injecting that into the application, but maybe tell us what that means both maybe technically and from a business stand point. >> Yeah, so this idea of a data policy, right? Can be sometimes by operational teams, but basically it's a set of rules around how one should and should not be able to use data, right? And so those are great rules. It could be that people who are in one country shouldn't be able to access the data of another country, very simple role, right? But how do you actually enforce that? Like you can declare it, but if there is a end point on a server that allows you to access the data, the policy is effectively moot. And so what you got to go do is make sure that at the point of leverage or at the point of usage, people know what the policy happens to be. And that's where AI come in. You can say let's document all the data sets that happened to be domiciled in Korea or in China. And therefore make sure that those are arbitrarily segregated so that when people want to use that as datasets, they know that the policy exists and they know that it's been applied to that particular dataset. That's somewhere where AI and ML can be super valuable rather than a human being trying to document thousands of databases or tens of thousands of data sets, which is really kind of a (mumbles) exercise. And so, that application of automation is really critical and being able to do governance at the scale that most enterprises have to do it. >> You got it 'cause humans just can't do that at scale. Now what do you mean by people-centric approach? Can you explain that? >> Yeah, often what I find with governance is that there's this notion of kind of there's this heavy notion of how one should deal with the data, right? So often what I find is that there are certain folks who think, oh well, we're going to declare the rules and people are just going to follow them. And if you've ever been well, a parent or in some cases seeing government operate, you realize that that actually isn't how things work. And involve them in how things are run. And if you do that, right? You're going to get a lot more success in how you apply rules and procedures because people will understand that and people know why they exist. And so what we do within this governance regime is we basically say, look, we want to make sure that the people who are using the data, leveraging the data are also the people who are stewarding the data. There shouldn't be a separate role of data steward that is arbitrarily defined off, just because you've been assigned to a job that you never wanted to do. Rather it should be a part of your day job. And it should be something that you do because you really want to do it. And it's a part of your workflow. And so this idea of being people centric is all about how do you engage the analyst, the product managers, the sales operation managers, to document those sales data sets and those product data sets. So that in fact, those people can be the ones who are answering the questions, not somebody off to the side who knows nothing about the data. >> Yeah, I think you've talked in previous CUBE interviews about context and that really fits to this discussion. So these capabilities are part of an application, which is what? it's a module onto your existing platform. And it's sort of it's a single platform, right? I mean, we're not bespoke products. Maybe you can talk about that. >> Yeah, that's exactly right. I mean, it's funny because we've evolved and built a relation with a lot of capability. I mean, interestingly we're launching this data governance application but I would say 60% of our almost 300 customers would say they do a form or a significant part of data governance, leveraging relations. So it's not like we're new to this market. We've been selling in this market for years. What's different though, is that we've talked a lot about the catalog as a platform over the last year. And we think that that's a really important concept because what is a platform? It's a capability that has multiple applications built on top of it, definitionally. And it's also a capability where third party developers can leverage APIs and SDKs to build applications. And thirdly, it has all of the requisite capabilities and content. So that those application developers, whether it's first party from Alation or third party can really build those applications efficiently, elegantly and economically well. And the catalog is a natural platform because it contains all of the knowledge of the datasets. And it has all of the people who might be leveraging data in some fundamental way. And so this idea of building this data governance module allows a very specialized audience of people in governance to be able to leverage the full capabilities of the platform, to be able to do their work faster, easier, much more simply and easily than they ever could have. And that's why we're so excited about this launch, because we think it's one example of many applications, whether it's ourselves building it or third parties that could be done so much more elegantly than it previously could have been. Because we have so much knowledge of the data and so much knowledge of how the company operates. >> Irrespective of the underlying cloud platform is what I heard before. >> irrespective of the underlying cloud platform, because the data as you know, lives everywhere. It's going to live in AWS, it's going to live in Snowflake. It's going to live on-premise inside of an Oracle database. That's not going to be changed. It's going to live in Teradata. It's going to live all over the place. And as a consequence of that, we've got to be able to connect to everything and we've got to be able to know everything. >> Okay, so that leads me to another big part of the announcement, which is the partnership and integration with Snowflake. Talk about how that came about. I mean, why snowflake? How should customers think about the future of data management. In the context of this relationship, obviously Snowflake talks about the data cloud. I want to understand that better and where you fit. >> Yeah, so interestingly, this partnership like most great partnerships was born in the field. We at the late part of last year had observed with Snowflake that we were in scores of their biggest accounts. And we found that when you found a really, really large Snowflake engagement, often you were going to be complementing that with a reasonable engagement with Alation. And so seeing that pattern as we were going out and raising our funding route at the beginning of this year, we basically found that Snowflake obviously with their Snowflake Ventures Investment arm realized how strategic having a great answer in the governance market happened to be. Now there are other use cases that we do with Snowflake. We can certainly get into those. But what we realized was that if you had a huge scale, Snowflake engagement, governance was a rate limiter to customers' ability to grow faster. And therefore also Snowflake's ability to grow faster within that account. And so we worked with them to not only develop a partnership but much more critically a roadmap that was really robust. And so we're now starting to deliver on that roadmap and are super excited to share a lot of those capabilities in this release. And so that means that we're automatically ingesting policies and controls from Snowflake into Alation, giving full transparency into both setting and also modifying and understanding those policies for anybody. And so that gives you another control plane through which to be able to manage all of the data inside of your enterprise, irrespective of how many instances of Snowflake you have and irrespective of how many controls you have available to you. >> And again, on which cloud runs on. So I want to follow up with that really interesting because Snowflake's promise of the data cloud, is it essentially abstracts the underlying complexity of the cloud. And I'm trying to understand, okay, how much of this is vision, how much is is real? And it's fine to have a Northstar, but sometimes you get lost in the marketing. And then the other part of the promise, and of course, big value proposition is data sharing. I mean, I think they've nailed that use case, but the challenge when you start sharing data is federated governance. And as well, I think you mentioned Oracle, Teradata that stuff's not all in the cloud, a lot of that stuff on-prem and you guys can deal with that as well. So help us sort of to those circles, if you can. Where do you fit into that equation? >> I think, so look, Snowflake is a magical technology and in the sense that if you look at the data, I mean, it reveals a very, very clear story of the ability to adopt Snowflake very quickly. So any data team with an organization can get up and running with the Snowflake instance with extraordinary speed and capability. Now that means that you could have scores, hundreds of instances of Snowflake within a single institution. And to the extent that you want to be able to govern that data to your point, you've got to have a single control plane through which you can manage all of those various instances. Whether they're combined or merged or completely federated and distinct from each other. Now, the other problem that comes up on governance is also discoverability. If you have all these instances, how do you know what the right hand is doing if the left hand is working independently of it? You need some way to be able to coordinate that effort. And so that idea of discoverability and governance is really the value proposition that Alation brings to the table. And the idea there is that people can then can get up and running much more quickly because, hey, what if I want to spin up a Snowflake instance, but there's somebody else, two teams over those already solved the problem or has the data that I need? Well, then maybe I don't even need to do that anymore. Or maybe I can build on top of that work to be able to get to even better outcome even faster. And so that's the sort of kind of one plus one equals three equation that we're trying to build with them. >> So that makes sense and that leads me to one of my favorite topics with the notion is this burgeoning movement around the concept of a data mesh in it. In other words, the notion that increasingly organizations are going to push to decentralize their data architectures and at the same time support a centralized policy. What do you think about this trend? How do you see Alation fitting in? >> Yeah, maybe in a different CUBE conversation. We can talk a little bit about my sort of stylized history of data, but I've got this basic theory that like everybody started out what sort of this idea of a single source of truth. That was a great term back in the 90s where people were like, look, we just need to build a single source of truth and we can take all of our data and physically land it up in a single place. And when we do that, it's going to all be clean, available and perfect. And we'll get back to the garden of Eden, right? And I think that idea has always been sort of this elusive thing that nobody's ever been able to really accomplish, right? Because in any data environment, what you're going to find is that if people use data, they create more data, right? And so in that world, you know, like that notion of centralization is always going to be fighting this idea of data sprawl. And so this concept of data mesh I think is, you know, there's formal technical definitions. But I'll stick with maybe a very informal one, which is the one that you offered. Which is just sort of this decentralized mode of architecture. You can't have decentralization if nobody knows how to access those different data points, 'cause otherwise they'll just have copies and sprawl and rework. And so you need a catalog and you need centralized policies so that people know what's available to them. And people have some way of being able to get conformed data. Like if you've got data spread out all over the place, how do you know which is the right master? How do you know what's the right customer record? How do you know what's your right chart of accounts? You've got to have services that exist in order to be able to find that stuff and to be able to leverage them consistently. And so, to me the data mesh is really a continuation of this idea, which the catalog really enabled. Which is if you can build a single source of reference, not a single source of truth, but a single place where people can find and discover the data, then you can govern a single plane and you can build consistent architectural rules so that different services can exist in a decentralized way without having to sort of bear all the costs of centralization. And I think that's a super exciting trend 'cause it gives power back to people who want to use the data more quickly and efficiently. >> And I think as we were talking about before, it's not about just the IT technical aspects, hey, it works. It's about putting power in the hands of the lines of business. And a big part of the data mesh conversation is around building data products and putting context or putting data in the hands of the people who have the context. And so it seems to me that Alation, okay, so you could have a catalog that is of the line of businesses catalog, but then there's an Uber catalog that sort of rolls up. So you've got full visibility. It seems that you've fit perfectly into that data mesh. And whether it's a data hub, a data warehouse, data lake, I mean, you don't care. I mean, that's just another node that you can help manage. >> That's exactly right. I mean, it's funny because we all look at these market scapes where people see these vendor landscapes of 500 or 800 different data and AI and ML and data architecture vendors. And often I get asked, well, why doesn't somebody come along and like consolidate all this stuff? And the reality is that tools are a reflection of how people think. And when people have different problems and different sets of experiences, they're going to want to use the best tool in order to be able to solve their problem. And so the nice thing about having a mesh architecture is you can use whatever tool you want. You just have to expose your data in a consistent way. And if you have a catalog, you can be able to have different teams using different infrastructure, different tools, different fundamental methods of building the software. But as long as they're exposing it in a consistent way, it doesn't matter. You don't necessarily need to care how it's built. You just need to know that you've got good data available to you. And that's exactly what a catalog does. >> Well, at least your catalog. I think the data mesh, it should be tools that are agnostic. And I think there are certain tools that are, I think you guys started with that principle. Not every data catalog is going to enable that, but I think that is the trend Satyen. And I think you guys have always fit into that. It's just that I think you were ahead of the time. Hey, we'll give you the last word. Give us the closing thoughts and bring us home. >> Well, I mean that's exactly right. Like, not all the catalogs are created equal and certainly not all governance is created equal. And I think most people say these words and think that are simple to get into. And then it's a death by a thousand cuts. I was literally on the phone with a chief data officer yesterday of a major distributor. And they basically said, look, like we've got sprawl everywhere. We've got data everywhere. We've got it in every type of system. And so having that sophistication turned into something that's actually easy to use is a super hard problem. And it's the one that we're focused on every single day that we wake up and every single night when we go to sleep. And so, that's kind of what we do. And we're here to make governance easy, to make data discovery easy. Those are the things that we hold our hats on. And we're super excited to put this release out 'cause we think it's going to make customers so much more capable of building on top of the problems that they've already solved. And that's what we're here to do. >> Good stuff, Satyen. Thanks so much, congratulations on the announcement and great to see you again. >> You too, Dave. Great talking. >> All right, thanks for watching this CUBE conversation. This is Dave Vellante, we'll see you next time. (tranquil music)

(upbeat music) >> Hi, today I'm going to talk about network analytics and what that means for telecommunications as we go forward, thinking about 5G, what the impact that's likely to have on network analytics and the data requirement, not just to run the network and to understand the network a little bit better, but also to inform the rest of the operation of the telecommunications business. So as we think about where we are in terms of network analytics and what that is over the last 20 years, the telecommunications industry has evolved its management infrastructure to abstract away from some of the specific technologies in the network. So what do we mean by that? Well, in the, when initial telecommunications networks were designed there were management systems that were built in. Eventually fault management systems, assurance systems, provisioning systems, and so on, were abstracted away. So it didn't matter what network technology had, whether it was a Nokia technology or Erickson technology or Huawei technology or whoever it happened to be. You could just look at your fault management system and understand where faults were happened. As we got into the last sort of 10, 15 years or so telecommunication service providers become, became more sophisticated in terms of their approach to data analytics and specifically network analytics and started asking questions about why and what if in relation to their network performance and network behavior. And so network analytics as a sort of an independent functioning was born and over time more and more data began to get loaded into the network analytics function. So today just about every carrier in the world has a network analytics function that deals with vast quantities of data in big data environments that are now being migrated to the cloud. As all telecommunications carriers are migrating as many IT workloads as possible to the cloud. So what are the things that are happening as we migrate to the cloud that drive enhancements in use cases and enhancements in scale in telecommunications network analytics? Well, 5G is the big thing, right? So 5G, it's not just another G in that sense. I mean, in some cases, in some senses it is 5G means greater bandwidth and lower latency and all those good things. So, you know, we can watch YouTube videos with less interference and, and less sluggish bandwidth and so on and so forth. But 5G is really about the enterprise and enterprise services transformation. 5G is a more secure kind of a network, but 5G is also a more pervasive network. 5G has a fundamentally different network topology than previous generations. So there's going to be more masts. And that means that you can have more pervasive connectivity. So things like IOT and edge applications, autonomous car, current smart cities, these kinds of things are all much better served because you've got more masts, that of course means that you're going to have a lot more data as well and we'll get to that. The second piece is immersive digital services. So with more masts, with more connectivity, with lower latency, with higher bandwidth with the potential is immense for services innovation. And we don't know what those services are going to be. We know that technologies like augmented reality, virtual reality, things like this have great potential, but we have yet to see where those commercial applications are going to be, but the innovation and the innovation potential for 5G is phenomenal. It certainly means that we're going to have a lot more edge devices. And that again is going to lead to an increase in the amount of data that we have available. And then the idea of pervasive connectivity when it comes to smart cities, autonomous cars, integrated traffic management systems, all of this kind of stuff, those kind of smart environments thrive where you've got this kind of pervasive connectivity, this persistent connection to the network. Again, that's going to drive more innovation. And again, because you've got these new connected devices, you're going to get even more data. So this rise, this exponential rise in data is really what's driving the change in network analytics. And there are four major vectors that are driving this increase in data in terms of both volume and in terms of speed. So the first thing is more physical elements. So we said already that 5G networks are going to have a different topology. 5G networks will have more devices, more masts. And so with more physical elements in the network, you're going to get more physical data coming off those physical networks. And so that needs to be aggregated and collected and managed and stored and analyzed and understood so that we can have a better understanding as to, you know, why things happened the way they do, why the network behaves in which they do in ways that it does and why devices that are connected to the network and ultimately of course, consumers, whether they be enterprises or retail customers behave in the way they do in relation to their interaction with the network. Edge nodes and devices. We're going to have an explosion in terms of the number of devices. We've already seen IOT devices with your different kinds of trackers and sensors that are hanging off the edge of the network, whether it's to make buildings smarter or car smart or people smarter in terms of having the measurements and the connectivity and all that sort of stuff. So the numbers of devices on the edge and beyond the edge are going to be phenomenal. One of the things that we've been trying to wrestle with as an industry over the last few years is where does a telco network end and where does the enterprise, or even the consumer network begin? It used to be very clear that, you know, the telco network ended at the router but now it's not that clear anymore because in the enterprise space, particularly with virtualized networking, which we're going to talk about in a second, you start to see end to end network services being deployed. And so are they being those services in some instances that are being managed by the service provider themselves, and in some cases by the enterprise client. Again, the line between where the telco network ends and where the enterprise or the consumer network begins is not clear. So those edge, the proliferation of devices at the edge, in terms of, you know, what those devices are, what the data yield is and what the policies are that need to govern those devices in terms of security and privacy and things like that, that's all going to be really, really important. Virtualized services, we just touched on that briefly. One of the big, big trends that's happening right now is not just the shift of IT operations onto the cloud, but the shift of the network onto the cloud, the virtualization of network infrastructure. And that has two major impacts. First of all, it means that you've got the agility and all of the scale benefits that you get from migrating workloads to the cloud, the elasticity and the growth and all that sort of stuff, but arguably more importantly for the telco it means that with a virtualized network infrastructure, you can offer entire networks to enterprise clients. So, you know, selling to a government department, for example, who's looking to stand up a system for, you know, certification of, you know, export certification, something like that. You can not just sell them the connectivity, but you can sell them the networking and the infrastructure in order to serve that entire end to end application. You could send, you could offer them in theory, an entire end-to-end communications network. And with 5G network slicing, they can even have their own little piece of the 5G bandwidth that's been allocated to gets a carrier and have a complete end to end environment. So the kinds of services that can be offered by telcos given virtualize network infrastructure are many and varied and it's an outstanding opportunity. But what it also means is that the number of network elements virtualized in this case is also exploding. And that means the amount of data that we're getting on, informing us as to how those network elements are behaving, how they're performing is going to go up as well. And then finally, AI complexity. So on the demand inside while historically network analytics, big data has been driven by returns in terms of data monetization, whether that's through cost avoidance or service assurance, or even revenue generation through data monetization and things like that. AI is transforming telecommunications and every other industry. The potential for autonomous operations is extremely attractive. And so understanding how the end-to-end telecommunication service delivery infrastructure works is essential as a training ground for AI models that can help to automate a huge amount of telecommunications operating processes. So the AI demand for data is just going through the roof. And so all of these things combined to mean that big data is getting explosive. It is absolutely going through the roof. So that's a huge thing that's happening. So as telecommunications companies around the world are looking at their network analytics infrastructure, which was initially designed for service insurance primarily and how they migrate that to the cloud. These things are impacting on those decisions because you're not just looking at migrating a workload to operate in the cloud that used to work in the data center. Now you're looking at migrating a workload but also expanding the use cases in that workload. And bear in mind many of those workloads are going to need to remain on-prem. So they'll need to be within a private cloud or at best a hybrid cloud environment in order to satisfy regulatory jurisdiction requirements. So let's talk about an example. So LG Uplus is fantastic service provider in Korea, huge growth in that business over the last, over the last 10, 15 years or so. And obviously most people would be familiar with LG, the electronics brand, maybe less so with, with LG Uplus, but they've been doing phenomenal work and were the first business in the world to launch commercial 5G in 2019. And so a huge milestone that they achieved. And at the same time they deployed the Network Real-time Analytics Platform or NRAP from a combination of Cloudera and our partner Caremark . Now, there were a number of things that were driving the requirement for the analytics platform at the time. Clearly the 5G launch was the big thing that they had in mind, but there were other things that were at play as well. So within the 5G launch, they were looking for a visibility of services and service assurance and service quality. So, you know, what services have been launched? How are they being taken up? What are the issues that are arising? Where the faults happening? Where are the problems? Because clearly when you launch a new service like that you want to understand and be on top of the issues as they arise. So that was really, really important. A second piece was and, you know, this is not a new story to any telco in the world, right? But there are silos in operation. And so it taking advantage of, or eliminating redundancies through the process of digital transformation it was really important. And so particular, the two silos between wired and the wireless sides of the business needed to come together so that there would be an integrated network management system for LG Uplus as they rolled out 5G. So eliminating redundancy and driving cost savings through the integration of the silos was really, really important. And that's a process and the people think every bit, as much as it is a systems and a data thing so another big driver. And the fourth one, you know, we've talked a little bit about some of these things, right? 5G brings huge opportunity for enterprise services innovation. So industry 4.0, digital experience, these kinds of use cases were very important in the South Korean market and in the business of LG Uplus And so looking at AI and how can you apply AI to network management? Again, there's a number of use cases, really, really exciting use cases that have gone live now in LG Uplus since we did this initial deployment and they're making fantastic strides there. Big data analytics for users across LG Uplus, right? So it's not just for, it's not just for the immediate application of 5G or the support or the 5G network, but also for other data analysts and data scientists across the LG Uplus business. Network analytics while primarily it's, it's primary use case is around network management. LG Uplus or network analytics has applications across the entire business, right? So, you know, for customer churn or next best offer for understanding customer experience and customer behavior really important there for digital advertising, for product innovation, all sorts of different use cases and departments within the business needed access to this information. So collaboration sharing across the network, the real-time network analytics platform it was very important. And then finally, as I mentioned, LG group is much bigger than just LG Uplus. It's got the electronics and other pieces, and they had launched a major group wide digital transformation program in 2019. And so being a part of that was important as well. Some of the seems that they were looking to address. So first of all, the integration of wired and wireless data sources, and so getting your assurance data sources, your network data sources and so on integration was really, really important. Scale was massive for them. You know, they're talking about billions of transactions in under a minute being processed and hundreds of terabytes per day. So, you know, phenomenal scale that needed to be, you know, available out of the box as it were. Real time indicators and alarms. And there was lots of KPIs and thresholds set that, you know, to make, made to meet certain criteria, certain standards. Customer specific real time analysis of 5G, services particularly for the launch, root cause analysis and AI based prediction on service anomalies and service issues was a core use case. As I talked about already the provision of service, of data services across the organization. And then support for 5G, served the business service impact was extremely important. So it's not just understand, well, you know, that you have an outreach in a particular network element, but what is the impact on the business of LG Uplus, but also what is the impact on the business of the customer from an outage or an anomaly or a problem on the network. So being able to answer those kinds of questions really, really important too. And as I said between Cloudera and Caremark and LG Uplus they have already, themselves an intrinsic part of the solution, this is what we ended up building. So a big, complicated architecture side. I really don't want to go into too much detail here. You can see these things for yourself, but let me skip through it really quickly. So, first of all, the key data sources. You have all of your wireless network information, other data sources, this is really important 'cause sometimes you kind of skip over this. There are other systems that are in place like the enterprise data warehouse that needed to be integrated as well. Southbound and northbound interfaces. So we get our data, yo know, from the network and so on and network management applications through both file interfaces, Kafka, NiFi are important technologies. And also the RDBMS systems that, you know, like the enterprise data warehouse that we're able to feed that into the system. And then northbound, you know, we spoke already about making network analytics services available across the enterprise. So, you know, having both a file and API interface available for other systems and other consumers across the enterprise is very important. Lots of stuff going on then in the platform itself. Two petabytes and persistent storage, Cloudera HDFS, 300 nodes for the raw data storage and then Kudu for real time storage for, you know, real-time indicator analysis around generation and other real time processes. So there was the core of the solution spark processes for ETL, key quality indicators and alarming, and also a bunch of work done around data preparation, data generation for transferal to, for party systems through the northbound interfaces. Impala API queries for real-time systems there on the right hand side and then a whole bunch of clustering classification, prediction jobs through the ML processes, the machine learning processes. Again, another key use case, and we've done a bunch of work on that, and I encourage you to have a look at the Cloudera website for more detail on some of the work that we did here. Some pretty cool stuff. And then finally, just the upstream services, some of these, there's lots more than simply these ones, but service assurance is really, really important so SQM, CEM and ACD right to the service quality management customer experience autonomous control is really, really important consumers of the real-time analytics platform and your conventional service assurance functions like faulted performance management. These things are as much consumers of the information and the network analytics platform as they are providers of data to the network analytics platform. So some of the specific use cases that have been stood up and that are delivering value to this day and there's lots of more besides, but these are just three that we pulled out. So, first of all, sort of specific monitoring and customer quality analysis care and response. So again, growing from the initial 5G launch, and then broadening into broader services, understanding where there are issues so that when people complain, when people have an issue that we can answer the concerns of the client in a substantive way. AI functions around root cause analysis understanding why things went wrong when they went wrong and also making recommendations as to how to avoid those occurrences in the future. So, you know, what preventative measures can be taken. And then finally, the collaboration function across LG Uplus extremely important and continues to be important to this day where data is shared throughout the enterprise, through the API Lira, through file interfaces and other things and through interface integrations with upstream systems. So that's kind of the real quick run through of LG Uplus. And the numbers are just staggering. You know, we've seen upwards of a billion transactions in under 40 seconds being tested. And we've gone through beyond those thresholds now already, and we're start, and this isn't just a theoretical sort of a benchmarking test or something like that. We're seeing these kinds of volumes of data and not too far down the track. So with those things that I mentioned earlier or with the proliferation of network infrastructure in the 5G context with virtualized elements, with all of these other bits and pieces are driving massive volumes of data towards the network analytics platform. So phenomenal scale. This is just one example. We work with service providers all over the world is over 80% of the top 100 telecommunication service providers run on Cloudera. They use Cloudera in the network and we're seeing those customers all migrating Legacy Cloudera platforms now onto CDP onto the Cloudera Data Platform. They're increasing the jobs that they do. So it's not just warehousing, not just ingestion of ETL and moving into things like machine learning. And also looking at new data sources from places like NW DAF the network data analytics function in 5G or the management and orchestration layer in software defined network function virtualization. So, you know, new use cases coming in all the time, new data sources coming in all the time, growth in the application scope from, as we say, from edge to AI. And so it's really exciting to see how the footprint is growing and how the applications in telecommunications are really making a difference in facilitating network transformation. And that's covering, that's me covered for today. I hope you found that helpful. By all means please reach out. There's a couple of links here. You can follow me on Twitter. You can connect to the telecommunications page. Reach out to me directly at Cloudera I'd love to answer your questions and talk to you about how big data is transforming networks and how network transformation is accelerating telcos throughout the world.

>>Hi today, I'm going to talk about network analytics and what that means for, for telecommunications as we go forward. Um, thinking about, uh, 5g, what the impact that's likely to have on, on network analytics and the data requirement, not just to run the network and to understand the network a little bit better. Um, but also to, to inform the rest of the operation of the telecommunications business. Um, so as we think about where we are in terms of network analytics and what that is over the last 20 years, the telecommunications industry has evolved its management infrastructure, uh, to abstract away from some of the specific technologies in the network. So what do we mean by that? Well, uh, in the, in the initial, uh, telecommunications networks were designed, there were management systems that were built in, um, eventually fault management systems, uh, assurance systems, provisioning systems, and so on were abstracted away. >>So it didn't matter what network technology had, whether it was a Nokia technology or Erickson technology or Huawei technology or whatever it happened to be. You could just look at your fault management system, understand where false, what happened as we got into the last sort of 10, 15 years or so. Telecommunication service providers become became more sophisticated in terms of their approach to data analytics and specifically network analytics, and started asking questions about why and what if in relation to their network performance and network behavior. And so network analytics as a, as a bit of an independent function was born and over time, more and more data began to get loaded into the network analytics function. So today just about every carrier in the world has a network analytics function that deals with vast quantities of data in big data environments that are now being migrated to the cloud. >>As all telecommunications carriers are migrating as many it workloads as possible, um, to the cloud. So what are the things that are happening as we migrate to the cloud that drive, uh, uh, enhancements in use cases and enhancements and scale, uh, in telecommunications network analytics? Well, 5g is the big thing, right? So 5g, uh, it's not just another G in that sense. I mean, in some cases, in some senses, it is 5g means greater bandwidth, lower latency and all those good things. So, you know, we can watch YouTube videos with less interference and, and less sluggish bandwidth and so on and so forth. But 5g is really about the enterprise and enterprise services. Transformation, 5g is more secure, kind of a network, but 5g is also a more pervasive network 5g, a fundamentally different network topology than previous generations. So there's going to be more masts and that means that you can have more pervasive connectivity. >>Uh, so things like IOT and edge applications, autonomous cars, smart cities, these kinds of things, um, are all much better served because you've got more masks that of course means that you're going to have a lot more data as well. And we'll get to that. The second piece is immersive digital services. So with more masks, with more connectivity, with lower latency with higher man, the potential, uh, is, is, is, is immense for services innovation. And we don't know what those services are going to be. We know that technologies like augmented reality, virtual reality, things like this have great potential. Um, but we, we have yet to see where those commercial applications are going to be, but the innovation and the innovation potential for 5g is phenomenal. Um, it certainly means that we're going to have a lot more, uh, edge devices, um, uh, and that again is going to lead to an increase in the amount of data that we have available. >>And then the idea of pervasive connectivity when it comes to smart, smart cities, uh, autonomous, autonomous currents, um, uh, integrated traffic management systems, um, all of this kind of stuff, those of those kind of smart environments thrive where you've got this kind of pervasive connectivity, this persistent, uh, connection to the network. Um, again, that's going to drive, um, um, uh, more innovation. And again, because you've got these new connected devices, you're going to get even more data. So this rise, this exponential rise in data is really what's driving the change in, in network analytics. And there are four major vectors that are driving this increase in data in terms of both volume and in terms of speed. So the first is more physical elements. So we said already that 5g networks are going to have a different apology. 5g networks will have more devices, more and more masks. >>Um, and so with more physical elements in the network, you're going to get more physical data coming off those physical networks. And so that needs to be aggregated and collected and managed and stored and analyzed and understood when, so that we can, um, have a better understanding as to why things happened the way they do, why the network behaves in which they do in, in, in, in ways that it does and why devices that are connected to the network. And ultimately of course, consumers, whether they be enterprises or retail customers, um, behave in the way they do in relation to their interaction within our edge nodes and devices, we're going to have a, uh, an explosion in terms of the number of devices. We've already seen IOT devices with your different kinds of trackers and, uh, and, and sensors that are hanging off the edge of the network, whether it's to make buildings smarter car smarter, or people smarter, um, in, in terms of having the, the, the measurements and the connectivity and all that sort of stuff. >>So the numbers of devices on the agent beyond the age, um, are going to be phenomenal. One of the things that we've been trying to with as an industry over the last few years is where does the telco network end, and where does the enterprise, or even the consumer network begin. You used to be very clear that, you know, the telco network ended at the router. Um, but now it's not, it's not that clear anymore because in the enterprise space, particularly with virtualized networking, which we're going to talk about in a second, um, you start to see end to end network services being deployed. Um, uh, and so are they being those services in some instances are being managed by the service provider themselves, and in some cases by the enterprise client, um, again, the line between where the telco network ends and where the enterprise or the consumer network begins, uh, is not clear. >>Uh, so, so those edge, the, the, the proliferation of devices at the age, um, uh, in terms of, um, you know, what those devices are, what the data yield is and what the policies are, their need to govern those devices, um, in terms of security and privacy, things like that, um, that's all going to be really, really important virtualized services. We just touched on that briefly. One of the big, big trends that's happening right now is not just the shift of it operations onto the cloud, but the shift of the network onto the cloud, the virtualization of network infrastructure, and that has two major impacts. First of all, it means that you've got the agility and all of the scale, um, uh, benefits that you get from migrating workloads to the cloud, the elasticity and the growth and all that sort of stuff. But arguably more importantly for the telco, it means that with a virtualized network infrastructure, you can offer entire networks to enterprise clients. >>So if you're selling to a government department, for example, is looking to stand up a system for certification of, of, you know, export certification, something like that. Um, you can not just sell them the connectivity, but you can sell them the networking and the infrastructure in order to serve that entire end to end application. You could sentence, you could offer them in theory, an entire end-to-end communications network, um, and with 5g network slicing, they can even have their own little piece of the 5g bandwidth that's been allocated against the carrier, um, uh, and, and have a complete end to end environment. So the kinds of services that can be offered by telcos, um, given virtualize network infrastructure, uh, are, are many and varied. And it's a, it's a, it's a, um, uh, an outstanding opportunity. But what it also means is that the number of network elements virtualized in this case is also exploding. >>That means the amount of data that we're getting on, uh, informing us as to how those network elements are behaving, how they're performing, um, uh, is, is, is going to go up as well. And then finally, AI complexity. So on the demand side, um, while historically, uh, um, network analytics, big data, uh, has been, has been driven by, um, returns in terms of data monetization, uh, whether that's through cost avoidance, um, or service assurance, uh, or even revenue generation through data monetization and things like that. AI is transforming telecommunications and every other industry, the potential for autonomous operations, uh, is extremely attractive. And so understanding how the end-to-end telecommunication service delivering delivery infrastructure works, uh, is essential, uh, as a training ground for AI models that can help to automate a huge amount of telecommunications operating, um, processes. So the AI demand for data is just going through the roof. >>And so all of these things combined to mean big data is getting explosive. It is absolutely going through the roof. So that's a huge thing that's happening. So as telecommunications companies around the world are looking at their network analytics infrastructure, which was initially designed for service insurance primarily, um, and how they migrate that to the cloud. These things are impacting on those decisions because you're not just looking at migrating a workload to operate in the cloud that used to work in the, in the data center. Now you're looking at, um, uh, migrating a workload, but also expanding the use cases in that work and bear in mind, many of those, those are going to need to remain on prem. So they'll need to be within a private cloud or at best a hybrid cloud environment in order to satisfy a regulatory jurisdictional requirements. So let's talk about an example. >>So LGU plus is a Finastra fantastic service provider in Korea. Um, huge growth in that business over the last, uh, over the last 10, 15 years or so. Um, and obviously most people will be familiar with LG, the electronics brand, maybe less so with, uh, with LG plus, but they've been doing phenomenal work. And we're the first, uh, business in the world who launch commercial 5g in 2019. And so a huge milestone that they achieved. And at the same time they deploy the network real-time analytics platform or in rep, uh, from a combination of Cloudera and our partner calmer. Now, um, there were a number of things that were driving, uh, the requirement for it, for the, for the analytics platform at the time. Um, clearly the 5g launch was that was the big thing that they had in mind, but there were other things that re so within the 5g launch, um, uh, they were looking for, for visibility of services, um, and service assurance and service quality. >>So, you know, what services have been launched? How are they being taken up? What are the issues that are arising, where are the faults happening? Um, where are the problems? Because clearly when you launch a new service, but then you want to understand and be on top of the issues as they arise. Um, so that was really, really important. The second piece was, and, you know, this is not a new story to any telco in the world, right. But there are silos in operation. Uh, and so, um, taking advantage of, um, or eliminating redundancies through the process, um, of, of digital transformation, it was really important. And so particular, the two silos between wired and the wireless sides of the business come together so that there would be an integrated network management system, um, for, uh, for LGU plus, as they rolled out 5g. So eliminating redundancy and driving cost savings through the, the integration of the silos is really, really important. >>And that's a process and the people thing every bit, as much as it is a systems and a data thing. So, um, another big driver and the fourth one, you know, we've talked a little bit about some of these things, right? 5g brings huge opportunity for enterprise services, innovation. So industry 4.0 digital experience, these kinds of use cases, um, are very important in the south Korean marketing and in the, um, in the business of LGU plus. And so, uh, um, looking at AI and how can you apply AI to network management? Uh, again, there's a number of use cases, really, really exciting use cases that have gone live now, um, in LG plus since, uh, since we did this initial deployment and they're making fantastic strides there, um, big data analytics for users across LGU plus, right? So it's not just for, um, uh, it's not just for the immediate application of 5g or the support or the 5g network. >>Um, but also for other data analysts and data scientists across the LGU plus business network analytics, while primarily it's primary it's primary use case is around network management, um, LGU plus, or, or network analytics, um, has applications across the entire business, right? So, um, you know, for customer churn or next best offer for understanding customer experience and customer behavior really important there for digital advertising, for product innovation, all sorts of different use cases and departments within the business needed access to this information. So collaboration sharing across the network, the real-time network analytics platform, um, it was very important. And then finally, as I mentioned, LG group is much bigger than just LG plus it's because the electronics and other pieces, and they had launched a major group wide digital transformation program in 2019, and still being a part of that was, well, some of them, the problems that they were looking to address. >>Um, so first of all, the integration of wired and wireless data service data sources, and so getting your assurance data sources, your network, data sources, uh, and so on integrated with is really, really important scale was massive for them. Um, you know, they're talking about billions of transactions in under a minute, uh, being processed, um, and hundreds of terabytes per day. So, uh, you know, phenomenal scale, uh, that needed to be available out of the box as it were, um, real time indicators and alarms. And there was lots of KPIs and thresholds set that, you know, w to make, make it to meet certain criteria, certain standards, um, customer specific, real time analysis of 5g, particularly for the launch root cause analysis, an AI based prediction on service, uh, anomalies and service service issues was, was, was a core use case. Um, as I talked about already the provision of service of data services across the organization, and then support for 5g, uh, served the business service, uh, impact, uh, was extremely important. >>So it's not just understand well, you know, that you have an outage in a particular network element, but what is the impact on the business of LGU plus, but also what is the impact on the business of the customer, uh, from an outage or an anomaly or a problem on, on, on the network. So being able to answer those kinds of questions really, really important, too. And as I said, between Cloudera and Kamarck, uh, uh, and LGU plus, uh, really themselves an intrinsic part of the solution, um, uh, this is, this is what we, we ended up building. So a big complicated architecture space. I really don't want to go into too much detail here. Um, uh, you can see these things for yourself, but let me skip through it really quickly. So, first of all, the key data sources, um, you have all of your wireless network information, other data sources. >>This is really important because sometimes you kind of skip over this. There are other systems that are in place like the enterprise data warehouse that needed to be integrated as well, southbound and northbound interfaces. So we get our data from the network and so on, um, and network management applications through file interfaces. CAFCA no fire important technologies. And also the RDBMS systems that, uh, you know, like the enterprise data warehouse that we're able to feed that into the system. And then northbound, um, you know, we spoke already about me making network analytics services available across the enterprise. Um, so, uh, you know, uh, having both the file and the API interface available, um, for other systems and other consumers across the enterprise is very important. Um, lots of stuff going on then in the platform itself to petabytes and persistent storage, um, Cloudera HDFS, 300 nodes for the, the raw data storage, um, uh, and then, uh, could do for real time storage for real-time indicator analysis, alarm generation, um, uh, and other real time, um, processes. >>Uh, so there, that was the, the core of the solution, uh, spark processes for ETL key quality indicators and alarming, um, and also a bunch of work done around, um, data preparation, data generation for transferal to, to third party systems, um, through the northbound interfaces, um, uh, Impala, API queries, um, for real-time systems, uh, there on the right hand side, and then, um, a whole bunch of clustering classification, prediction jobs, um, through the, uh, the, the, the, the ML processes, the machine learning processes, uh, again, another key use case, and we've done a bunch of work on that. And, um, I encourage you to have a look at the Cloudera website for more detail on some of the work that we did here. Um, so this is some pretty cool stuff. Um, and then finally, just the upstream services, some of these there's lots more than, than, than simply these ones, but service assurance is really, really important. So SQM cm and SED grade. So the service quality management customer experience, autonomous controllers, uh, really, really important consumers of, of the, of the real-time analytics platform, uh, and your conventional service assurance, um, functions like faulted performance management. Uh, these things are as much consumers of the information and the network analytics platform as they are providers of data to the network, uh, analytics >>Platform. >>Um, so some of the specific use cases, uh, that, uh, have been, have been stood up and that are delivering value to this day and lots of more episodes, but these are just three that we pulled out. Um, so first of all, um, uh, sort of specific monitoring and customer quality analysis, Karen response. So again, growing from the initial 5g launch and then broadening into broader services, um, understanding where there are the, where there are issues so that when people complaining, when people have an issue, um, that, um, uh, that we can answer the, the concerns of the client, um, in a substantive way, um, uh, AI functions around root cause analysis or understanding why things went wrong when they went wrong. Um, uh, and also making recommendations as to how to avoid those occurrences in the future. Uh, so we know what preventative measures can be taken. Um, and then finally the, uh, the collaboration function across LGU plus extremely important and continues to be important to this day where data is shared throughout the enterprise, through the API Lira through file interfaces and other things, and through interface integrations with, uh, with upstream systems. >>So, um, that's kind of the, the, uh, real quick run through of LGU plus the numbers are just stave staggering. Um, you know, we've seen, uh, upwards of a billion transactions in under 40 seconds being, um, uh, being tested. Um, and, and we've gone beyond those thresholds now, already, um, and we're started and, and, and, and this isn't just a theoretical sort of a benchmarking test or something like that. We're seeing these kinds of volumes of data and not too far down the track. So, um, with those things that I mentioned earlier with the proliferation of, of, um, of network infrastructure, uh, in the 5g context with virtualized elements, with all of these other bits and pieces are driving massive volumes of data towards the, uh, the, the, the network analytics platform. So phenomenal scale. Um, this is just one example we work with, with service providers all over the world is over 80% of the top 100 telecommunication service providers run on Cloudera. >>They use Cloudera in the network, and we're seeing those customers, all migrating legacy cloud platforms now onto CDP onto the Cloudera data platform. Um, they're increasing the, the, the jobs that they do. So it's not just warehousing, not just ingestion ETL, and moving into things like machine learning. Um, and also looking at new data sources from places like NWTF the network data analytics function in 5g, or the management and orchestration layer in, in software defined networks, network, function, virtualization. So, you know, new use cases coming in all the time, new data sources coming in all the time growth in, in, in, in the application scope from, as we say, from edge to AI. Um, and so it's, it's really exciting to see how the, the, the, the footprint is growing and how, uh, the applications in telecommunications are really making a difference in, in facilitating, um, network transformation. And that's covering that. That's me covered for today. I hope you found that helpful, um, by all means, please reach out, uh, there's a couple of links here. You can follow me on Twitter. You can connect to the telecommunications page, reach out to me directly at Cloudera. I'd love to answer your questions, um, uh, and, uh, and talk to you about how big data is transforming networks, uh, and how network transformation is, is accelerating telcos, uh, throughout >>Jamie Sharath with Liga data, I'm primarily on the delivery side of the house, but I also support our new business teams. I'd like to spend a minute really just kind of telling you about the legal data, where basically a Silicon valley startup, uh, started in 2014, and, uh, our lead iron, our executive team, basically where the data officers at Yahoo before this, uh, we provide managed data services, and we provide products that are focused on telcos. So we have some experience in non telco industry, but our focus for the last seven years or so is specifically on telco. So again, something over 200 employees, we have a global presence in north America, middle east Africa, Asia, and Europe. And we have folks in all of those places, uh, I'd like to call your attention to the, uh, the middle really of the screen there. So here is where we have done some partnership with Cloudera. >>So if you look at that and you can see we're in Holland and Jamaica, and then a lot to throughout Africa as well. Now, the data fabric is the product that we're talking about. And the data fabric is basically a big data type of data warehouse with a lot of additional functionality involved. The data fabric is comprised of, uh, some something called a flare, which we'll talk about in a minute below there, and then the Cloudera data platform underneath. So this is how we're partnering together. We, uh, we, we have this tool and it's, uh, it's functioning and delivering in something over 10 up. So flare now, flare is a piece of that legal data IP. The rest is there. And what flare does is that basically pulls in data, integrates it to an event streaming platform. It's, uh, it is the engine behind the data fabric. >>Uh, it's also a decisioning platform. So in real time, we're able to pull in data. We're able to run analytics on it, and we're able to alert are, do whatever is needed in a real-time basis. Of course, a lot of clients at this point are still sending data in batch. So it handles that as well, but we call that a CA picture Sanchez. Now Sacho is a very interesting app. It's an AI analytics app for executives. What it is is it runs on your mobile phone. It ties into your data. Now this could be the data fabric, but it couldn't be a standalone product. And basically it allows you to ask, you know, human type questions to say, how are my gross ads last week? How are they comparing against same time last week before that? And even the same time 60 days ago. So as an executive or as an analyst, I can pull it up and I can look at it instantly in a meeting or anywhere else without having to think about queries or anything like that. >>So that's pretty much for us at legal data, not really to set the context of where we are. So this is a traditional telco environments. So you see the systems of record, you see the cloud, you see OSS and BSS data. So one of the things that the next step above which calls we call the system of intelligence of the data fabric does, is it mergers that BSS and OSS data. So the longer we have any silos or anything that's separated, it's all coming into one area to allow business, to go in or allow data scientists go in and do that. So if you look at the bottom line, excuse me, of the, uh, of the system of intelligence, you can see that flare is the tools that pulls in the data. So it provides even streaming capabilities. It preserves entity states, so that you can go back and look at it state at any time. >>It does stream analytics that is as the data is coming in, it can perform analytics on it. And it also allows real-time decisioning. So that's something that, uh, that's something that business users can go in and create a system of, uh, if them's, it looks very much like the graph database, where you can create a product that will allow the user to be notified if a certain condition happens. So for instance, a bundle, so a real-time offer or user is succinct to run out of is ongoing, and an offer can be sent to him right on the fly. And that's set up by the business user as opposed to programmers, uh, data infrastructure. So the fabric has really three areas. That data is persistent, obviously there's the data lake. So the data lake stores that level of granularity that is very deep years and years of history, data, scientists like that, uh, and, uh, you know, for a historical record keeping and requirements from the government, that data would be stored there. >>Then there's also something we call the business semantics layer and the business semantics layer contains something over 650 specific telco KPIs. These are initially from PM forum, but they also are included in, uh, various, uh, uh, mobile operators that we've delivered at. And we've, we've grown that. So that's there for business data lake is there for data scientists, analytical stores, uh, they can be used for many different reasons. There are a lot of times RDBMS is, are still there. So these, this, this basically platform, this cloud they're a platform can tie into analytical data stores as well via flair access and reporting. So graphic visualizations, API APIs are a very key part of it. A third-party query tools, any kind of grid tools can be used. And those are the, of course, the, uh, the ones that are highly optimized and allow, you know, search of billions of records. >>And then if you look at the top, it's the systems of engagement, then you might vote this use cases. So teleco reporting, hundreds of KPIs that are, that are generated for users, segmentation, basically micro to macro segmentation, segmentation will play a key role in a use case. We talked about in a minute monetization. So this helps teleco providers monetize their specific data, but monetize it in. Okay, how to, how do they make money off of it, but also how might you leverage this data to engage with another client? So for instance, in some where it's allowed a DPI is used, and the fabric tracks exactly where each person goes each, uh, we call it a subscriber, goes within his, uh, um, uh, internet browsing on the, on the four or 5g. And, uh, the, all that data is stored. Uh, whereas you can tell a lot of things where the segment, the profile that's being used and, you know, what are they propensity to buy? Do they spend a lot of time on the Coca-Cola page? There are buyers out there that find that information very valuable, and then there's signs of, and we spoke briefly about Sanchez before that sits on top of the fabric or it's it's alone. >>So, so the story really that we want to tell is, is one, this is, this is one case out of it. This is a CVM type of case. So there was a mobile operator out there that was really offering, you know, packages, whether it's a bundle or whether it's a particular tool to subscribers, they, they were offering kind of an abroad approach that it was not very focused. It was not depending on the segments that were created around the profiling earlier, uh, the subscriber usage was somewhat dated and this was causing a lot of those. A lot of those offers to be just basically not taken and, and not, not, uh, audited. Uh, there was limited segmentation capabilities really before the, uh, before the, uh, fabric came in. Now, one of the key things about the fabric is when you start building segments, you can build that history. >>So all of that data stored in the data lake can be used in terms of segmentation. So what did we do about that? The, the, the envy and, oh, the challenge this, uh, we basically put the data fabric in and the data fabric was running Cloudera data platform and that, uh, and that's how we team up. Uh, we facilitated the ability to personalize campaign. So what that means is, uh, the segments that were built and that user fell within that segment, we knew exactly what his behavior most likely was. So those recommendations, those offers could be created then, and we enable this in real time. So real-time ability to even go out to the CRM system and gather further information about that. All of these tools, again, we're running on top of the Cloudera data platform, uh, what was the outcome? Willie, uh, outcome was that there was a much more precise offer given to the client that is, that was accepted, no increase in cross sell and upsell subscriber retention. >>Uh, our clients came back to us and pointed out that, uh, it was 183% year on year revenue increase. Uh, so this is a, this is probably one of the key use cases. Now, one thing to really mention is there are hundreds and hundreds of use cases running on the fabric. And I would even say thousands. A lot of those have been migrated. So when the fabric is deployed, when they bring the Cloudera and the legal data solution in there's generally a legacy system that has many use cases. So many of those were, were migrated virtually all of them in pen, on put on the cloud. Uh, another issue is that new use cases are enabled again. So when you get this level of granularity and when you have campaigns that can now base their offers on years of history, as opposed to 30 days of history, the campaigns campaign management response systems, uh, are, are, uh, are enabled quite a bit to do all, uh, to be precise in their offers. Okay. >>Okay. So this is a technical slide. Uh, one of the things that we normally do when we're, when we're out there talking to folks, is we talk and give an overview and that last little while, and then we give a deep technical dive on all aspects of it. So sometimes that deep dive can go a couple of hours. I'm going to do this slide and a couple of minutes. So if you look at it, you can see over on the left, this is the, uh, the sources of the data. And they go through this tool called flare that runs on the cloud. They're a data platform, uh, that can either be via cues or real-time cues, or it can be via a landing zone, or it can be a data extraction. You can take a look at the data quality that's there. So those are built in one of the things that flare does is it has out of the box ability to ingest data sources and to apply the data quality and validation for telco type sources. >>But one of the reasons this is fast to market is because throughout those 10 or 12, uh, opcos that we've done with Cloudera, where we have already built models, so models for CCN, for air for, for most mediation systems. So there's not going to be a type of, uh, input that we haven't already seen are very rarely. So that actually speeds up deployment very quickly. Then a player does the transformations, the, uh, the metrics, continuous learning, we call it continuous decisioning, uh, API access. Uh, we, uh, you know, for, for faster response, we use distributed cash. I'm not going to go too deeply in there, but the layer in the business semantics layer again, are, are sitting on top of the Cloudera data platform. You see the Kafka CLU, uh, Q1, the right as well. >>And all of that, we're calling the fabric. So the fabric is Cloudera data platform and the cloud and flair and all of this runs together. And, and by the way, there've been many, many, many, many hundreds of hours testing flare with Cloudera and, uh, and the whole process, the results, what are the results? Well, uh, there are, there are four I'm going to talk about, uh, we saw the one for the, it was called my pocket pocket, but it's a CDM type, a use case. Uh, the subscribers of that mobile operator were 14 million plus there was a use case for 24 million plus that a year on year revenue was 130%, uh, 32 million plus for 38%. These are, um, these are different CVM pipe, uh, use cases, as well as network use cases. And then there were 44%, uh, telco with 76 million subscribers. So I think that there are a lot more use cases that we could talk about, but, but in this case, this is the ones we're looking at, uh, again, 183%. This is something that we find consistently. And these figures come from our, uh, our actual end client. How do we unlock the full potential of this? Well, I think to start is to arrange a meeting and, uh, it would be great to, to, uh, for you to reach out to me or to Anthony. Uh, we're working at the junction on this, and we can set up a, uh, we can set up a meeting and we can go through this initial meeting. And, uh, I think that's the very beginning. Uh, again, you can get additional information from Cloudera website and from the league of data website, Anthony, that's the story. Thank you. >>No, that's great. Jeremy, thank you so much. It's a, it's, it's wonderful to go deep. And I know that there are hundreds of use cases being deployed in MTN, um, but great to go deep on one. And like you said, it can, once you get that sort of architecture in place, you can do so many different things. The power of data is tremendous, but it's great to be able to see how you can, how you can track it end to end from collecting the data, processing it, understanding it, and then applying it in a commercial context and bringing actual revenue back into the business. So there is your ROI straight away. Now you've got a platform that you can transform your business on. That's, that's, it's a tremendous story, Jamie, and thank you for your part. Sure. Um, that's a, that's, that's our story for today. Like Jamie says, um, please do flee, uh, feel free to reach out to us. Um, the, the website addresses are there and our contact details, and we'd be delighted to talk to you a little bit more about some of the other use cases, perhaps, um, and maybe about your own business and, uh, and how we might be able to make it, make it perform a little better. So thank you.

>>Welcome back to HPD discovered 2021. The virtual edition. My name is Dave Volonte and you're watching the cubes continuous coverage of H. P. S. Big customer event. Patrick Moorehead is here of moor insights and strategy is the number one analyst in the research analyst. Business. Patrick. Always a pleasure. Great to see you, >>David. Great to see you too. And I know you're you're up there fighting for that number one spot to. It's great to see you and it's great to see you in the meetings that were in. But it's even more fun to be here on the cube. I love to be on the cube and every once in a while you'll even call me a friend of the cube, >>unquestionably my friend and so and I can't wait second half. I mean you're traveling right now. We're headed to Barcelona to mobile World Congress later on this month. So so we're gonna we're gonna see each other face to face this year. 100%. So looking forward to that. So you know, let's get into it. Um you know, before we get into H. P. E. Let's talk a little bit about what you're seeing in the market. We've got, you know, we we finally, it feels like the on prem guys are finally getting their cloud act together. Um it's maybe taken a while, but we're seeing as a service models emerge. I think it's resonating with customers. The clearly not everything is moving to the cloud. There's this hybrid model emerging. Multi cloud is real despite what, you know, >>some some >>cloud players want to say. And then there's this edges like jump ball, what are you seeing in the marketplace? >>Yeah. Davis, as exciting as ever in. Just to put in perspective, I mean the public cloud has been around for about 10 years and still only 20% around 20% of the data in 20% of the applications are there now will be a very important ones and I'm certainly not a public cloud denier, I never have been, but there are some missing pieces that need to come together. And you know, even five years ago we were debating dave the hybrid cloud. And I feel like when amazon brought out outposts, the conversation was over right now, what you have is cloud native folks building out hybrid and on prem capabilities, you have a classic on, on prem folks building out hybrid and as a service capabilities. And I really think it boils down 22 things. I mean it's, it's wanting to have more flexibility and you know, I hate to use it because it sounds like a marketing word, but agility, the ability to spin up things and spin down things in a very, a quick way. And uh you know what they've learned, The veterans also know, hey, let's do this in a way that doesn't lock us in too much into a certain vendor. And I've been around for a long time. David and I'm a realist too. Well, you have to lock yourself into something. Uh it just depends on what do you want to lock yourself into, but super exciting and what H. P. E. You know, when they further acts in the sea with Green Lake, I think it was four years ago, uh I think really started to stir the pot. >>You know, you mentioned the term cloud denial, but you know, and I feel like the narrative from, I like to determine as I think you should use the term veteran. You know, it's very, they're ours is the only industry patrick where legacy is a pejorative, but so, but the point I want to make is I feel like there's been a lot of sort of fear from the veteran players, but, but I look at it differently, I wonder what your take is. I, I think, I think I calculated that the Capex spending by the big four public clouds including Alibaba last year was $100 billion. That's like a gift to the world. Here we're gonna spend $100 billion like the internet. Here you go build. And so I, and I feel like companies like HP are finally saying, yeah, we're gonna build, we're gonna build a layer and we're gonna hide the complexity and we're gonna add value on top. What do you think about that? >>Yeah. So I think it's now, I wish, I wish the on prem folks like HP, you would have done it 10 years ago, but I don't think anybody expected the cloud to be as big as it's become over the last 10 years. I think we saw companies like salesforce with sas taking off, but I think it is the right direction because there are advantages to having workloads on prem and if you add an as a service capability on top of the top of that, and let's say even do a Coehlo or a managed service, it's pretty close to being similar to the public cloud with the exception, that you can't necessarily swipe a credit card for a bespoke workload if you're a developer and it is a little harder to scale out. But that is the next step in the equation day, which is having, having these folks make capital expenditures, make them in a Polo facility and then put a layer to swipe a credit card and you literally have the public cloud. >>Yeah. So that's, that's a great point. And that's where it's headed, isn't it? Um, so let's, let's talk about the horses on the track. Hp as you mentioned, I didn't realize it was four years ago. I thought it was, wow, That's amazing. So everybody's followed suit. You see, Dallas announced, Cisco has announced, uh, Lenovo was announced, I think IBM as well. So we, so everybody's sort of following suit there. The reality is, is it's taken some time to get this stuff standardized. What are you seeing from, from HP? They've made some additional announcements, discover what's your take on all this. >>Yeah. So HPD was definitely the rabbit here and they were first in the market. It was good to see. First off some of their, Um, announcements on, on how it's going and they talked about $428 billion 1200 customers over 900 partners and 95% retention. And I think that's important. Anybody who's in the lead and remember what aws I used to do with the slide with the amount of customers would just get bigger and bigger and bigger and that's a good way to show momentum. I like the retention part two which is 95%. And I think that that says a lot uh probably the more important announcements that they made is they talked about the G. A. Of some of their solutions on Green Lake and whether it is A. S. A. P. Hana. Ml apps HPC with Francis, VD. I was Citrus and video but they also brought more of what I would call a vertical layer and I'm sure you've seen the vertical ization of all of these cloud and as a service workloads. But what they're doing with Epic, with EMR and looseness, with financial payments and Splunk and intel with data and risk analysis and finally, a full stack for telco five G. One of the biggest secrets and I covered this about five years ago is HPV actually has a full stack that Western european carriers use and they're now extending that to five G. And um, so more horizontal, uh, and, and more vertical. That was the one of the big swipes, uh, that I saw that there was a second though, but maybe we can talk about these. >>Yeah. Okay. Okay. So, so the other piece of that of course is standardization right there there because there was a, there was a, there was a lot of customization leading up to this and everybody sort of, everybody always had some kind of financial game they can play and say, hey, there's an adversary as a service model, but this is definitely more of a standardized scalable move that H P E. Is making with what they call Lighthouse. Right? >>Yeah, that's exactly right. And I've talked to some Green Lake customers and they obviously gave it kudos or they wouldn't have HP wouldn't have served them up and they wouldn't have been buying it. But they did say, um, it took, it took a while, took some paperwork to get it going. It's not 100% of push button, but that's partially because hp allows you to customize the hardware. You want a one off network adapter. Hp says yes, right. You want to integrate a different type of storage? They said yes. But with Green Lake Lighthouse, it's more of a, what you see is what you get, which by the way, is very much like the public cloud or you go to a public cloud product sheet or order sheet. You're picking from a list and you really don't know everything that's underneath the covers, aside from, let's say, the speed of the network, the type of the storage and the amount of the storage you get. You do get to pick between, let's say, an intel processor, Graviton two or an M. D processor. You get to pick your own GPU. But that's pretty much it. And HP Lighthouse, sorry, Green Lake Lighthouse uh is bringing, I think a simplification to Green Lake that it needs to truly scale beyond, let's say the White House customers that HP Yeah, >>Well done. So, you know, and I hear your point about we're 10 years in plus. And to me this is like a mandate. I mean, this is okay, good, good job guys about time. But if I had a, you know, sort of look at the big player, it's like we have an oligopoly here in this, in this business. It's HP, Cisco, you got Dell Lenovo, you've got, you know, IBM, they're all doing this and they all have a different little difference, you know, waste of skin of catch. And your point about simplicity, it seems like HP HP is all in antony's like, okay, here's what we're going to announce that, you know, a while ago. So, and they seem to have done a good job with Wall Street and they got a simple model, you know, Dell is obviously bigger portfolio, much more complicated. IBM is even more complicated than that. I don't know so much about Lenovo and in Cisco of course, has acquired a ton of SAAS companies and sort of they've got a lot of bespoke products that they're trying to put together. So they've got, but they do have SAS models. So each of them is coming at it from a different perspective. How do you think? And so and the other point we got lighthouse, which is sort of Phase one, get product market fit. Phase two now is scale, codify standardized and then phase three is the moat build your unique advantage that protects your business. What do you see as HP ES sort of unique value proposition and moat that they can build longer term. >>That's a great, great question. And let me rattle off kind of what I'm seeing that some of these players here, So Cisco, ironically has sells the most software of any of those players that you mentioned, uh with the exception of IBM um and yeah, C I >>CSDB two. Yeah, >>yeah, they're the they're the number two security player, uh Microsoft, number one, So and I think the evaluation on the street uh indicate that shows that I feel like Dell tech is a very broad play because not only do they have servers, storage, networking insecurity, but they also have Pcs and devices. So it's a it's a scale and end play with a focus on VM ware solutions, not exclusively of course. Uh And um then you've got Lenovo who is just getting into the as a service game and are gosh, they're doing great in hyper scale, they've got scale there vertically integrated. I don't know if if too many people talk about that, but Lenovo does a lot of their own manufacturing and they actually manufacture Netapp storage solutions as well. So yeah, each of these folks brings a different game to the table. I think with h P e, what you're bringing the table is nimble. When HP and HP split, the number one thing that I said was that ah, h P E is going to have to be so much faster than it offsets the scale that Dell technology has and the HBs credit, although there, I don't think we're getting credit for this in the stock market yet. Um and I know you and I are both industry folks, not financial folks, but I think their biggest thing is speed and the ability to move faster. And that is what I've seen as it relates to the moat, which is a unique uh competitive advantage. Quite frankly, I'm still looking for that day uh in in in what that is. And I think in this industry it's nearly impossible. And I would posit that that any, even the cloud folks, if you say, is there something that AWS can do that as your can't if it put it put its mind to it or G C P. I don't think so. I think it's more of a kind of land and expand and I think for H P E. When it comes to high performance computing and I'm not just talking about government installations, I'm talking about product development, drug development. I think that is a landing place where H P. E already does pretty well can come in and expand its footprint. >>You know, that's really interesting um, observations. So, and I would agree with you. It's kind of like, this is a copycat industry. It's like the west coast offense like the NFL, >>so, >>so the moat comes from, you know, brand execution and your other point about when HP and HP split, that was a game changer because all of a sudden you saw companies like them, you always had a long term relationship with H P E, but or HP, but then they came out of the woodworks and started to explode. And so it really opened up opportunities. So it really is a execution, isn't it? But go ahead please. >>Dave if I had to pick something that I think HP HPV needs to always be ahead in as a service and listen you and I both know announcements don't mean delivery, but there is correlation between if you start four years ahead of somebody that other company is going to have to put just, I mean they're going to have to turn that ship and many of its competitors really big ships to be able to get there. So I think what Antonio needs to do is run like hell, right? Because it, it I think it is in the lead and as a service holistically doesn't mean they're going to be there forever, but they have to stay ahead. They have to add more horizontal solutions. They have to add more vertical solutions. And I believe that at some point it does need to invest in some Capex at somebody like Anna Quinn X play credit card swiper on top of that. And Dave, you have the public, you have the public cloud, you don't have all the availability zones, but you have a public cloud. >>Yeah, that's going to happen. I think you're right on. So we see this notion of cloud expanding. It's no longer just remote set of services. Somewhere out in the cloud. It's like you said, outpost was the sort of signal. Okay, We're coming on prem. Clearly the on prem uh, guys are connecting to the cloud. Multi cloud exists, we know this and then there's the edge but but but that brings me to that sort of vision and everybody's laying out of this this this seamless integration hiding the complexity log into my cloud and then life will be good. But the edge is different. Right? It's not just, you know, retail store or a race track. I mean there's the far edge, there's the Tesla car, there's gonna be compute everywhere and that sort of ties into the data. The data flows, you know the real time influencing at the edge ai new semiconductor models. You you came out of the semiconductor industry, you know it inside and out arm is exploding, dominating in the edge with apple and amazon Alexa and things like that. That's really where the action is. So this is a really interesting cocktail and soup that we have going on. How do >>you say? Well, you know, Dave if the data most data, I think one thing most everybody agrees on is that most of the data will be created on the edge, whether that's a moving edge a car, a smartphone or what I call an edge data center without tile flooring. Like that server that's bolted to the wall of Mcdonald's. When you drive through, you can see it versus the walmart. Every walmart has a raised tile floor. It's the edge to economically and performance wise, it doesn't make any sense to send all that data to the mother ships. Okay. And whether that's unproven data center or the giant public cloud, more efficient way is to do the compute at the closest way possible. But what it does, it does bring up challenges. The first challenge is security. If I wanted to, I could walk in and I could take that server off the Mcdonald's or the Shell gas station wall. So I can't do that in a big data center. Okay, so security, physical security is a challenge. The second is you don't have the people to go in there and fix stuff that are qualified. If you have a networking problem that goes wrong in Mcdonald's, there's nobody there that can help uh they can they can help you fix that. So this notion of autonomy and management and not keeping hyper critical data sitting out there and it becomes it becomes a security issue becomes a management issue. Let me talk about the benefits though. The benefits are lower latency. You want you want answers more quickly when that car is driving down the road And it has a 5GV 2 x communication cameras can't see around corners. But that car communicating ahead, that ran into the stop sign can, through Vita X talked to the car behind it and say, hey, something is going on there, you can't go to, you can't go to the big data center in the sky, let's make that happen, that is to be in near real time and that computer has to happen on the edge. So I think this is a tremendous opportunity and ironically the classic on prem guys, they own this, they own this space aside from smartphones of course, but if you look at compute on a light pole, companies like Intel have built complete architecture is to do that, putting compute into five G base stations, heck, I just, there was an announcement this week of google cloud and its gaming solution putting compute in a carrier edge to give lower latency to deliver a better experience. >>Yeah, so there, of course there is no one edge, it's highly fragmented, but I'm interested in your thoughts on kinda whose stack actually can play at the edge. And I've been sort of poking uh H P E about this. And the one thing that comes back consistently is Aruba, we we could take a room but not only to the, to the near edge, but to the far edge. And and that, do you see that as a competitive advantage? >>Oh gosh, yes. I mean, I would say the best acquisition That hp has made in 10 years has been aruba, it's fantastic and they also managed it in the right way. I mean it was part of HB but it was, it was managed a lot more loosely then, you know, a company that might get sucked into the board and I think that paid off tremendously. They're giving Cisco on the edge a absolute run for their money, their first with new technologies, but it's about the solution. What I love about what a ruble looks at is it's looking at entertainment solutions inside of a stadium, a information solution inside of an airport as opposed to just pushing the technology forward. And then when you integrate compute with with with Aruba, I think that's where the real magic happens. Most of the data on a permanent basis is actually video data. And a lot of it's for security, uh for surveillance. And quite frankly, people taking videos off, they're off their smartphones and downloaded video. I I just interviewed the chief network officer of T mobile and their number one bit of data is video, video uploaded, video download. But that's where the magic happens when you put that connectivity and the compute together and you can manage it in a, in an orderly and secure fashion. >>Well, I have you we have a ton of time here, but I I don't pick your brain about intel the future of intel. I know you've been following it quite closely, you always have Intel's fighting a forefront war, you got there battling a. M. D. There, battling your arm slash and video. They're they're taking on TSMC now and in foundry and, and I'll add china for the looming threat there. So what's your prognosis for for intel? >>Yeah, I liked bob the previous Ceo and I think he was doing a lot of of the right things, but I really think that customers and investors and even their ecosystem wanted somebody leading the company with a high degree of technical aptitude and Pat coming, I mean, Pat had a great job at VM or, I mean he had a great run there and I think it is a very positive move. I've never seen the energy at Intel. Probably in the last 10 years that I've seen today. I actually got a chance to talk with Pat. I visited Pat uhh last month and and talk to him about pretty much everything and where he wanted to take the company the way you looked at technology, what was important, what's not important. But I think first off in the world of semiconductors, there are no quick fixes. Okay. Intel has a another two years Before we see what the results are. And I think 2023 for them is gonna be a huge year. But even with all this competition though, Dave they still have close to 85% market share in servers and revenue share for client computing around 90%. Okay. So and they built out there networking business, they build out a storage business um with obtain they have the leading Aid as provider with Mobileye. And and listen I was I was one of Intel's biggest, I was into one of Intel's biggest, I was Intel's biggest customer when I was a compact. I was their biggest competitor at A. M. B. So um I'm not obviously not overly pushing or there's just got to wait and see. They're doing the right things. They have the right strategy. They need to execute. One of the most important things That Intel did is extend their alliance with TSMC. So in 2023 we're going to see Intel compute units these tiles they integrate into the larger chips called S. O. C. S. B. Manufactured by TSMC. Not exclusively, but we could see that. So literally we could have AMG three nanometer on TSMC CPU blocks, competing with intel chips with TSMC three nanometer CPU blocks and it's on with regard to video. I mean in video is one of these companies that just keeps going charging, charging hard and I'm actually meeting with Jensen wang this week and Arm Ceo Simon Segers to talk about this opportunity and that's a company that keeps on moving interestingly enough in video. If the Arm deal does go through will be the largest chip license, see CPU licensee and have the largest CPU footprint on on the planet. So here we have A and D. Who's CPU and Gpu and buying an F. P. G. A company called Xilinx, you have Intel, Cpus, Gpus machine learning accelerators and F. P. G. S and then you've got arms slashing video bit with everything as well. We have three massive ecosystems. They're gonna be colliding here and I think it's gonna be great for competition date. Competition is great. You know, when there's not competition in Cpus and Gpus, we know what happens, right. Uh, the B just does not go on and we start to stagnate. And I did, I do feel like the industry on CPU started to stagnate when intel had no competition. So bring it on. This is gonna be great for for enterprises then customers to, and then, oh, by the way, the custom Chip providers, WS has created no less than 15 custom semiconductors started with networking uh, and, and nitro and building out an edge that surrounded the general compute and then it moved to Inferential to for inference trainee um, is about to come out for training Graviton and gravitas to for general purpose CPU and then you've got Apple. So innovation is huge and you know, I love to always make fun of the software is eating the world. I always say yeah but has to run on something. And so I think the combination of semiconductors, software and cloud is just really a magical combination. >>Real quick handicap the video arm acquisition. What what are the odds that that they will be successful? They say it's on track. You've got to 2 to 13 to 1 10 to 1. >>I say 75%. Yes 25%. No China is always the has been the odd odd man out for the last three years. They scuttled the qualcomm NXP deal. You just don't know what china is going to do. I think the Eu with some conditions is gonna let this fly. I think the U. S. Is absolutely going to let this fly. And even though the I. P. Will still stay over in the UK, I think the U. S. Wants to see, wants to see this happen. Japan and Korea. I think we'll allow this china is the odd man out. >>In a word, the future of H. P. E. Is blank >>as a service >>patrick Moorehead. Always a pleasure my friend. Great to see you. Thanks so much for coming back in the cube. >>Yeah, Thanks for having me on. I appreciate that. >>Everybody stay tuned for more great coverage from HP discover 21 this is day Volonte for the cube. The leader and enterprise tech coverage. We'll be right back. >>Mm.