(upbeat music) >> In 2010 Wikibon predicted that the all flash data center was coming. The forecast at the time was that flash memory consumer volumes, would drive prices of enterprise flash down faster than those of high spin speed, hard disks. And by mid decade, buyers would opt for flash over 15K HDD for virtually all active data. That call was pretty much dead on and the percentage of flash in the data center continues to accelerate faster than that, of spinning disk. Now, the analyst that made this forecast was David FLoyer and he's with me today, along with Renen Hallak who is the founder and CEO of Vast Data. And they're going to discuss these trends and what it means for the future of data and the data center. Gentlemen, welcome to the program. Thanks for coming on. >> Great to be here. >> Thank you for having me. >> You're very welcome. Now David, let's start with you. You've been looking at this for over a decade and you know, frankly, your predictions have caused some friction, in the marketplace but where do you see things today? >> Well, what I was forecasting was based on the fact that the key driver in any technology is volume, volume reduces the cost over time and the volume comes from the consumers. So flash has been driven over the years by initially by the iPod in 2006 the Nano where Steve Jobs did a great job with Samsung and introducing large volumes of flash. And then the iPhone in 2008. And since then, all of mobile has been flash and mobile has been taking in a greater and greater percentage share. To begin with the PC dropped. But now the PCs are over 90% are using flash when there delivered. So flash has taken over the consumer market, very aggressively and that has driven down the cost of flash much much faster than the declining market of HDD. >> Okay and now, so Renen I wonder if we could come to you, we've got I want you to talk about the innovations that you're doing, but before we get there, talk about why you started Vast. >> Sure, so it was five years ago and it was basically the kill of the hard drive. I think what David is saying resonates very, very well. In fact, if you look at our original presentation for Vast Data. It showed flash and tape. There was no hard drive in the middle. And we said 10 years from now, and this was five years ago. So even the dates match up pretty well. We're not going to have hard drives anymore. Any piece of information that needs to be accessible at all will be on flash and anything that is dormant and never gets read will be on tape. >> So, okay. So we're entering this kind of new phase now, with which is being driven by QLC. David maybe you could give us a quick what is QLC? Just give us a bumper sticker there. >> There's 3D NAND, which is the thing that's growing, very very fast and it's growing on several dimensions. One dimension is the number of layers. Another dimension is the size of each of those pieces. And the third dimension is the number of bits which a QLC is five bits per cell. So those three dimensions have all been improving. And the result of that is that on a wafer of, that you create, more and more data can be stored on the whole wafer on the chip that comes from that wafer. And so QLC is the latest, set of 3D NAND flash NAND flash. That's coming off the lines at the moment. >> Okay, so my understanding is that there's new architectures that are entering the data center space, that could take advantage of QLC enter Vast. Someone said they've rented this, a nice set up for you and maybe before we get into the architecture, can you talk a little bit more about the company? I mean, maybe not everybody's familiar with with Vast, you share why you started it but what can you tell us about the business performance and any metrics you can share would be great? >> Sure, so the company as I said is five years old, about 170, 180 people today. We started selling product just around two years ago and have just hit $150 million in run rate. That's with eight sales people. And so, as you can imagine, there's a lot of demand for flash all the way down the stack in the way that David predicted. >> Wow, okay. So you got pretty comfortable. I think you've got product market fit, right? And now you're going to scale. I would imagine you're going to go after escape velocity and you're going to build your moat. Now part of that, I mean a lot of that is product, right? Product is sales. Those are the cool two golden pillars, but, and David when you think back to your early forecast last decade it was really about block storage. That was really what was under attack. You know, kind of fusion IO got it started with Facebook. They were trying to solve their SQL database performance problems. And then we saw pure storage. They hit escape velocity. They drove a truck through EMC sym metrics HDD based install base which precipitated the acquisition of XtremeIO by EMC. Something Renan knows a little bit about having led development, of the product but flash was late to the NAS party guys, Renan let me start with you. Why is that? And what is the relevance of QLC in that regard? >> The way storage has been always, it looks like a pyramid and you have your block devices up at the top and then your NAS underneath. And today you have object down at the bottom of that pyramid. And the pyramid basically represents capacity and the Y axis is price performance. And so if you could only serve a small subset of the capacity, you would go for block. And that is the subset that needed high performance. But as you go to QLC and PLC will soon follow the price of all flash systems goes down to a point where it can compete on the lower ends of that pyramid. And the capacity grows to a point where there's enough flash to support those workloads. And so now with QLC and a lot of innovation that goes with it it makes sense to build an all flash, NAS and object store. >> Yeah, okay. And David, you and I have talked about the volumes and Renan sort of just alluded to that, the higher volumes of NAS, not to mention the fact that NAS is hard, you know files difficult, but that's another piece of the equation here, isn't it? >> Absolutely, NAS is difficult. It's a large, very large scale. We're talking about petabytes of data. You're talking about very important data. And you're talking about data, which is at the moment very difficult to manage. It takes a lot of people to manage it, takes a lot of resources and it takes up a lot, a lot of space as well. So all of those issues with NAS and complexity is probably the biggest single problem. >> So maybe we could geek out a little bit here. You guys go at it, but Renan talk about the Vast architecture. I presume it was built from the ground up for flash since you were trying to kill HTD. What else do we need to know? >> It was built for flash. It was also built for Crosspoint which is a new technology that came out from Intel and micron about three years ago. Cross point is basically another level of persistent media above flash and below Ram. But what we really set out to do is, as I said to kill the hard drive, and for that what you need is to get the price parity. And of course, flash and hard drives are not at price parity today. As David said, they probably will be in a few years from now. And so we wanted to, jumpstart that, to accelerate that. And so we spent a lot of time in building a new type of architecture with a lot of new metadata structures and algorithms on top to bring that effective price down to a point where it's competitive today. And in fact, two years ago the way we did it was by going out to talk to these vendors Intel with 3D Crosspoint and QLC flash Mellanox with NVMe over fabrics, and very fast ethernet networks. And we took those building blocks and we thought how can we use this to build a completely different type of architecture, that doesn't just take flash one level down the stack but actually allows us to break that pyramid, to collapse it down and to build a single system that is as fast as your fastest all flash block device or faster but as affordable as your hard drive based archives. And once that happens you don't need to think about storage anymore. You have a single system that's big enough and cheap enough to throw everything at it. And it's fast enough such that everything is accessible as sub-millisecond latencies. The way the architecture is built is pretty much the opposite of the way scale-out storage has been done. It's not based on shared nothing. The way XtremIO was the way Isilon is the way Hadoop and the Google file system are. We're basing it on a concept called Dis-aggregated Shared Everything. And what that means is that we have the media on one set of devices, the logic running in containers, just software and you can scale each of those independently. So you can scale capacity independently from performance and you have this shared metadata space, that all of the containers can see. So the containers don't actually have to talk to each other in the synchronous path. That means that it's much more scalable. You can go up to hundreds of thousands of nodes rather than just a few dozen. It's much more resilient. You can have all of them fail and you still didn't lose any data. And it's much more easy to use to David's point about complexity. >> Thank you for that. And then you, you mentioned up front that you not only built for flash, but built for Crosspoint. So you're using Crosspoint today. It's interesting. There was always been this sort of debate about Crosspoint It's less expensive than Ram, or maybe I got that wrong but it's persistent, >> It is. >> Okay, but it's more expensive than flash. And it was sort of thought it was a fence sitter cause it didn't have the volume but you're using it today successfully. That's interesting. >> We're using it both to offset the deficiencies of the low cost flash. And the nice thing about QLC and PLC is that you get the same levels of read performance as you would from high-end flash. The only difference between high cost and low cost flash today is in right cycles and in right performance. And so Crosspoint helps us offset both of those. We use it as a large right buffer and we use it as a large metadata store. And that allows us not just to arrange the information in a very large persistent right buffer before we need to place it on the low cost flash. But it also allows us to develop new types of metadata structures and algorithms that allow us to make better use of the low cost flash and reduce the effective price down even lower than the rock capacity. >> Very cool. David, what are your thoughts on the architecture? give us kind of the independent perspective >> I think it's brilliant architecture. I'd like to just go one step down on the network side of things. The whole use of NBME over fabric allows the users all of the servers to get any data across this whole network directly to it. So you've got great performance right away across the stack. And then the other thing is that by using RDMA for NASS, you're able, if you need to, to get down in microseconds to the data. So overall that's a thousand times faster than any HDD system could manage. So this architecture really allows an any to any simple, single level of storage which is so much easier to think about, architect use or manage is just so much simpler. >> If you had I mean, I said I don't know if there's an answer to this question but if you had to pick one thing Renan that you really were dogmatic about and you bet on from an architectural standpoint, what would that be? >> I think what we bet on in the early days is the fact that the pyramid doesn't work anymore and that tiering doesn't work anymore. In fact, we stole Johnson and Johnson's tagline No More Tears. Only, It's not spelled the same way. The reason for that is not because of storage. It's because of the applications as we move to applications more and more that are machine-based and machines are now not just generating the data. They're also reading the data and analyzing it and providing insights for humans to consume. Then the workloads changed dramatically. And the one thing that we saw is that you can't choose which pieces of information need to be accessible anymore. These new algorithms, especially around AI and machine learning and deep learning they need fast access to the entirety of the dataset and they want to read it over and over and over again in order to generate those insights. And so that was the driving force behind us building this new type of architecture. And we're seeing every single day when we talk to customers how the old architecture is simply break down in the face of these new applications. >> Very cool speaking of customers. I wonder if you could talk about use cases, customers you know, and this NASS arena maybe you could add some color there. >> Sure, our customers are large in data. We started half a petabyte and we grow into the exabyte range. The system likes to be big as, as it grows it grows super linearly. If you have a 100 nodes or a 1000 nodes you get more than 10X in performance, in capacity efficiency and resilience, et cetera. And so that's where we thrive. And those workloads are today. Mainly analytics workloads, although not entirely. If you look at it geographically we have a lot of life science in Boston research institutes medical imaging, genomics universities pharmaceutical companies here in New York. We have a lot of financials, hedge funds, Analyzing everything from satellite imagery to trade data to Twitter feeds out in California. A lot of AI, autonomous driving vehicles as well as media and entertainment both generation of films like animation, as well as content distribution are being done on top of best. >> Great thank you and David, when you look at the forecast that you've made over the years and when I imagine that they match nicely with your assumptions. And so, okay, I get that, but that doesn't, not everybody agrees, David. I mean, certainly the HDD guys don't agree but they, they're obviously fighting to hang on to their awesome run for 50 years, but as well there's others to do in hybrids and the like, and they kind of challenge your assumptions and you don't have a dog in this fight. We just want the truth and try to do our best to report it. But let me start with this. One of the things I've seen is that you're comparing deduped and compressed flash with raw HDD. Is that true or false? >> It's in terms of the fundamentals of the forecast, et cetera, it's false. What I'm taking is the new egg price. And I did it this morning and I looked up a two terabyte disc drive, NAS disc drive. I think it was $54. And if you look at the cost of a a NAND for two terabytes, it's about $200. So it's a four to one ratio. >> So, >> So and that's coming down from what people saw last year, which was five or six and every year has been, that ratio has been coming down. >> The ratio between the cost Delta, between HDD is still cheaper. So Renan I wonder one of the other things that Floyer has said is that because of the advantages of flash, not only performance but also data sharing, et cetera, which really drives other factors like TCO. That it doesn't have to be at parody in order for customers to consume that. I certainly saw that on my laptop, I could have got more storage and it could have been cheaper for per bit for my laptop. I took the flash. I mean, no problem. That that was an intelligence test but what are you seeing from customers? And by the way Floyer I think is forecasting by what, 2026 there will be actually a raw to raw crossover. So then it's game over. But what are you seeing in terms of what customers are telling you or any evidence you have that it doesn't have to be, even that customers actually get more value even if it's more expensive from flash, what are you seeing? >> Yeah in the enterprise space customers aren't buying raw flash they're buying storage systems. And so even if the raw numbers flash versus hard drive are still not there there is a lot of things that can be done at the system level to equalize those two. In fact, a lot of our IP is based on that we are taking flash today is, as David said more expensive than hard drives, but at the system level it doesn't remain more expensive. And the reason for that is storage systems waste space. They waste it on metadata, they waste it on redundancy. We built our new metadata structures, such that they everything lives in Crosspoint and is so much smaller because of the way Crosspoint is accessible at byte level granularity, we built our erasure codes in a way where you can sustain 10, 20, 30 drive failures but you only pay two or 1% in overhead. We built our data reduction mechanisms such that they can reduce down data even if the application has already compressed it and already de-duplicated it. And so there's a lot of innovation that can happen at the software level as part of this new direct dis-aggregated shared everything architecture that allows us to bridge that cost gap today without having customers do fancy TCO calculations. And of course, as prices of flash over the next few years continue declining, all of those advantages remain and it will just widen the gap between hard drives and flash. And there really is no advantage to hard drives once the price thing is solved. >> So thank you. So David, the other thing I've seen around these forecasts is that the comments that you can't really data reduce effectively hard disk. And I understand why the overhead and of course you can in flash you can use all kinds of data reduction techniques and not affect performance, or it's not even noticeable like put the cloud guys, do it upstream. Others do it upstream. What's your comment on that? >> Yes, if you take sequential data and you do a lot of work upfront you can write out in very lot big blocks and that's a perfect sequentially, good way of doing it. The challenge for the HDD people is if they go for that for that sort of sequential type of application that the cheapest way of doing that is to use tape which comes back to the discussion that the two things that are going to remain are tape and flash. So that part of the HDD market in my assertion will go towards tape and tape libraries. And those are serving very well at the moment. >> Yeah I mean, It's just the economics of tape are really attractive. I just feel like I've said this many times that the marketing of tape is lacking. Like I'd like to see, better thinking around how it could play. Cause I think customers have this perception tape, but there's actually a lot of value there. I want to carry on, >> Small point there. Yeah, I mean, there's an opportunity in the same way that Vast have created an architecture for flash. There's an opportunity out there for the tech people with flash to make an architecture that allows you to take that workload and really lower the price, enormously. >> You've called it Flape >> Flape yes. >> There's some interesting metadata opportunities there but we won't go into that. And then David, I want to ask you about NAND shortages. We saw this in 2016 and 2017. A lot of people saying there's an NAND shortage again. So that's a flaw in your forecast prices of you're assuming prices of flash continue to come down faster than those of HDD but the shortages of NAND could be problematic. What do you say to that? >> Well, I've looked at that in some detail and one of the big, important things is what's happening in the flash market and the Chinese, YMTC Chinese company has introduced a lot more volume into the market. They're making 100,000 wafers a month for this year. That's around six to 8% of market of NAND at this year, as a result, Samsung, micron, Intel, Hynix they're all increasing their volumes of NAND so that they're all investing. So I don't see that NAND itself is going to be a problem. There is certainly a shortage of processor chips which drive the intelligence in the NAND itself. But that's a problem for everybody. That's a problem for cars. It's a problem for disk drives. >> You could argue that's going to create an oversupply, potentially. Let's not go there, but you know what at the end of the day it comes back to the customer and all this stuff. It's interesting. I love talking about the architecture but it's really all about customer value. And so, so Renan, I want you to sort of close there. What should customers be paying attention to? And what should observers of Vast Data really watch as indicators for progress for you guys milestones and things in the market that we should be paying attention to but start with the customers. What's your advice to them? >> Sure, for any customer that I talked to I always ask the same thing. Imagine where you'll be five years from now because you're making an investment now that is at least five years long. In our case, we guaranteed the lifespan of the devices for a decade, such that you know that it's going to be there for you and imagine what is going to happen over those next five years. What we're seeing in most customers is that they have a lot of doormen data and with the advances in analytics and AI they want to make use of that data. They want to turn it from a cost center to a profit center and to gain insight from that data and to improve their business based on that information that they have the same way the hyperscalers are doing in order to do that, you need one thing you need fast access to all of that information. Once you have that, you have the foundation to step into this next generation type world where you can actually make money off of your information. And the best way to get very, very fast access to all of your information is to put it on Vast media like flash and Crosspoint. If I can give one example, Hedge Funds. Hedge funds do a lot of back-testing on Vast. And what makes sense for them is to test as much information back as they possibly can but because of storage limitations, they can't do that. And the other thing that's important to them is to have a real-time experience to be able to run those simulations in a few minutes and not as a batch process overnight, but because of storage limitations, they can't do that either. The third thing is if you have many different applications and many different users on the same system they usually step on each other's toes. And so the Vast architecture is solves those three problems. It allows you a lot of information very fast access and fast processing an amazing quality of service where different users of the system don't even notice that somebody else is accessing the same piece of information. And so Hedge Funds is one example. Any one of these verticals that make use of a lot of information will benefit from this architecture in this system. And if it doesn't cost any more, there's really no real reason delay this transition into all flash. >> Excellent very clear thinking. Thanks for laying that out. And what about, you know, things that we should how should we judge you? What are the things that we should watch? >> I think the most important way to judge us is to look at customer adoption and what we're seeing and what we're showing investors is a very high net dollar retention number. What that means is basically a customer buys a piece of kit today, how much more will they buy over the next year, over the next two years? And we're seeing them buy more than three times more, within a year of the initial purchase. And we see more than 90% of them buying more within that first year. And that to me indicates that we're solving a real problem and that they're making strategic decisions to stop buying any other type of storage system. And to just put everything on Vast over the next few years we're going to expand beyond just storage services and provide a full stack for these AI applications. We'll expand into other areas of infrastructure and develop the best possible vertically integrated system to allow those new applications to thrive. >> Nice, yeah. Think investors love that lifetime value story. If you can get above 3X of the customer acquisition cost is to IPO in the way. Guys hey, thanks so much for coming to the Cube. We had a great conversation and really appreciate your time. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> All right, Thanks for watching everybody. This is Dave Volante for the Cube. We'll see you next time. (gentle music)

>> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR, this is Braking Analysis with Dave Vellante. >> Intel's big announcement this week underscores the threat that the United States faces from China. The US needs to lead in semiconductor design and manufacturing. And that lead is slipping because Intel has been fumbling the ball over the past several years, a mere two months into the job, new CEO Pat Gelsinger wasted no time in setting a new course for perhaps, the most strategically important American technology company. We believe that Gelsinger has only shown us part of his plan. This is the beginning of a long and highly complex journey. Despite Gelsinger's clear vision, his deep understanding of technology and execution ethos, in order to regain its number one position, Intel we believe we'll need to have help from partners, competitors and very importantly, the US government. Hello everyone and welcome to this week's Wikibon CUBE insights powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis we'll peel the onion Intel's announcement of this week and explain why we're perhaps not as sanguine as was Wall Street on Intel's prospects. And we'll lay out what we think needs to take place for Intel to once again, become top gun and for us to gain more confidence. By the way this is the first time we're broadcasting live with Braking Analysis. We're broadcasting on the CUBE handles on Twitch, Periscope and YouTube and going forward we'll do this regularly as a live program and we'll bring in the community perspective into the conversation through chat. Now you may recall that in January, we kind of dismissed analysis that said Intel didn't have to make any major strategic changes to its business when they brought on Pat Gelsinger. Rather we said the exact opposite. Our view at time was that the root of Intel's problems could be traced to the fact that it wasn't no longer the volume leader. Because mobile volumes dwarf those of x86. As such we said that Intel couldn't go up the learning curve for next gen technologies as fast as its competitors and it needed to shed its dogma of being highly vertically integrated. We said Intel needed to more heavily leverage outsourced foundries. But more specifically, we suggested that in order for Intel to regain its volume lead, it needed to, we said at the time, spin out its manufacturing, create a joint venture sure with a volume leader, leveraging Intel's US manufacturing presence. This, we still believe with some slight refreshes to our thinking based on what Gelsinger has announced. And we'll talk about that today. Now specifically there were three main pieces and a lot of details to Intel's announcement. Gelsinger made it clear that Intel is not giving up its IDM or integrated device manufacturing ethos. He called this IDM 2.0, which comprises Intel's internal manufacturing, leveraging external Foundries and creating a new business unit called Intel Foundry Services. It's okay. Gelsinger said, "We are not giving up on integrated manufacturing." However, we think this is somewhat nuanced. Clearly Intel can't, won't and shouldn't give up on IDM. However, we believe Intel is entering a new era where it's giving designers more choice. This was not explicitly stated. However we feel like Intel's internal manufacturing arm will have increased pressure to serve its designers in a more competitive manner. We've already seen this with Intel finally embracing EUV or extreme ultraviolet lithography. Gelsinger basically said that Intel didn't lean into EUV early on and that it created more complexity in its 10 nanometer process, which dominoed into seven nanometer and as you know the rest of the story and Intel's delays. But since mid last year, it's embraced the technology. Now as a point of reference, Samsung started applying EUV for its seven nanometer technology in 2018. And it began shipping in early 2020. So as you can see, it takes years to get this technology into volume production. The point is that Intel realizes it needs to be more competitive. And we suspect, it will give more freedom to designers to leverage outsource manufacturing. But Gelsinger clearly signaled that IDM is not going away. But the really big news is that Intel is setting up a new division with a separate PNL that's going to report directly to Pat. Essentially it's hanging out a shingle and saying, we're open for business to make your chips. Intel is building two new Fabs in Arizona and investing $20 billion as part of this initiative. Now well Intel has tried this before earlier last decade. Gelsinger says that this time we're serious and we're going to do it right. We'll come back to that. This organizational move while not a spin out or a joint venture, it's part of the recipe that we saw as necessary for Intel to be more competitive. Let's talk about why Intel is doing this. Look at lots has changed in the world of semiconductors. When you think about it back when Pat was at Intel in the '90s, Intel was the volume leader. It crushed the competition with x86. And the competition at the time was coming from risk chips. And when Apple changed the game with iPod and iPhone and iPad, the volume equation flipped to mobile. And that led to big changes in the industry. Specifically, the world started to separate design from manufacturing. We now see firms going from design to tape out in 12 months versus taking three years. A good example is Tesla and his deal with ARM and Samsung. And what's happened is Intel has gone from number one in Foundry in terms of clock speed, wafer density, volume, lowest cost, highest margin to falling behind. TSMC, Samsung and alternative processor competitors like NVIDIA. Volume is still the maker of kings in this business. That hasn't changed and it confers advantage in terms of cost, speed and efficiency. But ARM wafer volumes, we estimate are 10x those of x86. That's a big change since Pat left Intel more than a decade ago. There's also a major chip shortage today. But you know this time, it feels a little different than the typical semiconductor boom and bust cycles. Semiconductor consumption is entering a new era and new use cases emerging from automobiles to factories, to every imaginable device piece of equipment, infrastructure, silicon is everywhere. But the biggest threat of all is China. China wants to be self-sufficient in semiconductors by 2025. It's putting approximately $60 billion into new chip Fabs, and there's more to come. China wants to be the new economic leader of the world and semiconductors are critical to that goal. Now there are those poopoo the China threat. This recent article from Scott Foster lays out some really good information. But the one thing that caught our attention is a statement that China's semiconductor industry is nowhere near being a major competitor in the global market. Let alone an existential threat to the international order and the American way of life. I think Scotty is stuck in the engine room and can't see the forest of the trees, wake up. Sure. You can say China is way behind. Let's take an example. NAND. Today China is at about 64 3D layers whereas Micron they're at 172. By 2022 China's going to be at 128. Micron, it's going to be well over 200. So what's the big deal? We say talk to us in 2025 because we think China will be at parody. That's just one example. Now the type of thinking that says don't worry about China and semi's reminds me of the epic lecture series that Clay Christiansen gave as a visiting professor at Oxford University on the history of, and the economics of the steel industry. Now if you haven't watched this series, you should. Basically Christiansen took the audience through the dynamics of steel production. And he asked the question, "Who told the steel manufacturers that gross margin was the number one measure of profitability? Was it God?" he joked. His point was, when new entrance came into the market in the '70s, they were bottom feeders going after the low margin, low quality, easiest to make rebar sector. And the incumbents nearly pulled back and their mix shifted to higher margin products and their gross margins went up and life was good. Until they lost the next layer. And then the next, and then the next, until it was game over. Now, one of the things that got lost in Pat's big announcement on the 23rd of March was that Intel guided the street below consensus on revenue and earnings. But the stock went up the next day. Now when asked about gross margin in the Q&A segment of the announcement, yes, gross margin is a if not the key metric in semi's in terms of measuring profitability. When asked Intel CFO George Davis explained that with the uptick in PCs last year there was a product shift to the lower margin PC sector and that put pressure on gross margins. It was a product mix thing. And revenue because PC chips are less expensive than server chips was affected as were margins. Now we shared this chart in our last Intel update showing, spending momentum over time for Dell's laptop business from ETR. And you can see in the inset, the unit growth and the market data from IDC, yes, Dell's laptop business is growing, everybody's laptop business is growing. Thank you COVID. But you see the numbers from IDC, Gartner, et cetera. Now, as we pointed out last time, PC volumes had peaked in 2011 and that's when the long arm of rights law began to eat into Intel's dominance. Today ARM wafer production as we said is far greater than Intel's and well, you know the story. Here's the irony, the very bucket that conferred volume adventures to Intel PCs, yes, it had a slight uptick last year, which was great news for Dell. But according to Intel it pulled down its margins. The point is Intel is loving the high end of the market because it's higher margin and more profitable. I wonder what Clay Christensen would say to that. Now there's more to this story. Intel's CFO blame the supply constraints on Intel's revenue and profit pressures yet AMD's revenue and profits are booming. So RTSMCs. Only Intel can't seem to thrive when there's this massive chip shortage. Now let's get back to Pat's announcement. Intel is for sure, going forward investing $20 billion in two new US-based fabrication facilities. This chart shows Intel's investments in US R&D, US CapEx and the job growth that's created as a result, as well as R&D and CapEx investments in Ireland and Israel. Now we added the bar on the right hand side from a Wall Street journal article that compares TSMC CapEx in the dark green to that of Intel and the light green. You can see TSMC surpass the CapEx investment of Intel in 2015, and then Intel took the lead back again. And in 2017 was, hey it on in 2018. But last year TSMC took the lead, again. And appears to be widening that lead quite substantially. Leading us to our conclusion that this will not be enough. These moves by Intel will not be enough. They need to do more. And a big part of this announcement was partnerships and packaging. Okay. So here's where it gets interesting. Intel, as you may know was late to the party with SOC system on a chip. And it's going to use its packaging prowess to try and leap frog the competition. SOC bundles things like GPU, NPU, DSUs, accelerators caches on a single chip. So better use the real estate if you will. Now Intel wants to build system on package which will dis-aggregate memory from compute. Now remember today, memory is very poorly utilized. What Intel is going to do is to create a package with literally thousands of nodes comprising small processors, big processors, alternative processors, ARM processors, custom Silicon all sharing a pool of memory. This is a huge innovation and we'll come back to this in a moment. Now as part of the announcement, Intel trotted out some big name customers, prospects and even competitors that it wants to turn into prospects and customers. Amazon, Google, Satya Nadella gave a quick talk from Microsoft to Cisco. All those guys are designing their own chips as does Ericsson and look even Qualcomm is on the list, a competitor. Intel wants to earn the right to make chips for these firms. Now many on the list like Microsoft and Google they'd be happy to do so because they want more competition. And Qualcomm, well look if Intel can do a good job and be a strong second sourced, why not? Well, one reason is they compete aggressively with Intel but we don't like Intel so much but it's very possible. But the two most important partners on this slide are one IBM and two, the US government. Now many people were going to gloss over IBM in this announcement, but we think it's one of the most important pieces of the puzzle. Yes. IBM and semiconductors. IBM actually has some of the best semiconductor technology in the world. It's got great architecture and is two to three years ahead of Intel with POWER10. Yes, POWER. IBM is the world's leader in terms of dis-aggregating compute from memory with the ability to scale to thousands of nodes, sound familiar? IBM leads in power density, efficiency and it can put more stuff closer together. And it's looking now at a 20x increase in AI inference performance. We think Pat has been thinking about this for a while and he said, how can I leave leap frog system on chip. And we think he thought and said, I'll use our outstanding process manufacturing and I'll tap IBM as a partner for R&D and architectural chips to build the next generation of systems that are more flexible and performant than anything that's out there. Now look, this is super high end stuff. And guess who needs really high end massive supercomputing capabilities? Well, the US military. Pat said straight up, "We've talked to the government and we're honored to be competing for the government/military chips boundary." I mean, look Intel in my view was going to have to fall down into face not win this business. And by making the commitment to Foundry Services we think they will get a huge contract from the government, as large, perhaps as $10 billion or more to build a secure government Foundry and serve the military for decades to come. Now Pat was specifically asked in the Q&A section is this Foundry strategy that you're embarking on viable without the help of the US government? Kind of implying that it was a handout or a bailout. And Pat of course said all the right things. He said, "This is the right thing for Intel. Independent of the government, we haven't received any commitment or subsidies or anything like that from the US government." Okay, cool. But they have had conversations and I have no doubt, and Pat confirmed this, that those conversations were very, very positive that Intel should head in this direction. Well, we know what's happening here. The US government wants Intel to win. It needs Intel to win and its participation greatly increases the probability of success. But unfortunately, we still don't think it's enough for Intel to regain its number one position. Let's look at that in a little bit more detail. The headwinds for Intel are many. Look it can't just flick a switch and catch up on manufacturing leadership. It's going to take four years. And lots can change in that time. It tells market momentum as well as we pointed out earlier is headed in the wrong direction from a financial perspective. Moreover, where is the volume going to come from? It's going to take years for Intel to catch up for ARMS if it never can. And it's going to have to fight to win that business from its current competitors. Now I have no doubt. It will fight hard under Pat's excellent leadership. But the Foundry business is different. Consider this, Intel's annual CapEx expenditures, if you divide that by their yearly revenue it comes out to about 20% of revenue. TSMC spends 50% of its revenue each year on CapEx. This is a different animal, very service oriented. So look, we're not pounding the table saying Intel's worst days are over. We don't think they are. Now, there are some positives, I'm showing those in the right-hand side. Pat Gelsinger was born for this job. He proved that the other day, even though we already knew it. I have never seen him more excited and more clearheaded. And we agreed that the chip demand dynamic is going to have legs in this decade and beyond with Digital, Edge, AI and new use cases that are going to power that demand. And Intel is too strategic to fail. And the US government has huge incentives to make sure that it succeeds. But it's still not enough in our opinion because like the steel manufacturers Intel's real advantage today is increasingly in the high end high margin business. And without volume, China is going to win this battle. So we continue to believe that a new joint venture is going to emerge. Here's our prediction. We see a triumvirate emerging in a new joint venture that is led by Intel. It brings x86, that volume associated with that. It brings cash, manufacturing prowess, R&D. It brings global resources, so much more than we show in this chart. IBM as we laid out brings architecture, it's R&D, it's longstanding relationships. It's deal flow, it can funnel its business to the joint venture as can of course, parts of Intel. We see IBM getting a nice licensed deal from Intel and or the JV. And it has to get paid for its contribution and we think it'll also get a sweet deal and the manufacturing fees from this Intel Foundry. But it's still not enough to beat China. Intel needs volume. And that's where Samsung comes in. It has the volume with ARM, has the experience and a complete offering across products. We also think that South Korea is a more geographically appealing spot in the globe than Taiwan with its proximity to China. Not to mention that TSMC, it doesn't need Intel. It's already number one. Intel can get a better deal from number two, Samsung. And together these three we think, in this unique structure could give it a chance to become number one by the end of the decade or early in the 2030s. We think what's happening is our take, is that Intel is going to fight hard to win that government business, put itself in a stronger negotiating position and then cut a deal with some supplier. We think Samsung makes more sense than anybody else. Now finally, we want to leave you with some comments and some thoughts from the community. First, I want to thank David Foyer. His decade plus of work and knowledge of this industry along with this collaboration made this work possible. His fingerprints are all over this research in case you didn't notice. And next I want to share comments from two of my colleagues. The first is Serbjeet Johal. He sent this to me last night. He said, "We are not in our grandfather's compute era anymore. Compute is getting spread into every aspect of our economy and lives. The use of processors is getting more and more specialized and will intensify with the rise in edge computing, AI inference and new workloads." Yes, I totally agree with Sarbjeet. And that's the dynamic which Pat is betting and betting big. But the bottom line is summed up by my friend and former IDC mentor, Dave Moschella. He says, "This is all about China. History suggests that there are very few second acts, you know other than Microsoft and Apple. History also will say that the antitrust pressures that enabled AMD to thrive are the ones, the very ones that starved Intel's cash. Microsoft made the shift it's PC software cash cows proved impervious to competition. The irony is the same government that attacked Intel's monopoly now wants to be Intel's protector because of China. Perhaps it's a cautionary tale to those who want to break up big tech." Wow. What more can I add to that? Okay. That's it for now. Remember I publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. These episodes are all available as podcasts. All you got to do is search for Braking Analysis podcasts and you can always connect with me on Twitter @dvellante or email me at david.vellante, siliconangle.com As always I appreciate the comments on LinkedIn and in clubhouse please follow me so that you're notified when we start a room and start riffing on these topics. And don't forget to check out etr.plus for all the survey data. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE insights powered by ETR, be well, and we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

>> Hi I'm Peter Burris. Welcome to Action Item. (upbeat electronic music) Every week I bring the Wikibon research team together to talk about some of the issues that are most important in the computing industry and this week is no different. This week I'm joined by four esteemed Wikibon analysts, David Floyer, Neil Radon, Jim Kobielus, Ralph Finos, and what we're going to do is we're going to talk a few minutes about some of the predictions that we did not get into, our recent predictions webinar. So, I'd like to start off with Jim Kobielus. Jim, one of the things that we didn't get a chance to talk about yesterday in the overall predictions webinar was some of the new AI frameworks that are on the horizon for developers. So, let's take a look at it. What's the prediction? >> Prediction for 2018, Peter, is that the AI community will converge on an open framework. An open framework for developing, training and deploying deep learning and machine learning applications. In fact, in 2017, we've seen the momentum in this direction, strong momentum. If you were at AWS re:Invent just a few weeks ago, you'll notice that on the main stage, they discuss what they're doing in terms of catalyzing an open API, per building AI, an open model interchange format, and an open model compilation framework, and they're not the only vendor who's behind this. Microsoft has been working with AWS, as well as independently and with other partners to catalyze various aspects of this open framework. We also see Intel and Google and IBM and others marching behind a variety of specifications such as Gluon (mumbles) NNVM and so forth, so we expect continued progress along these lines in 2018, and that we expect that other AI solution provider, as well as users and developers will increasingly converge on this, basically, the abstraction framework that will make it irrelevant whether you build your model in TensorFlow or MXNet or whatever, you'd be able to compile it and run it in anybody else's back end. >> So Jim, one question then we'll move on to Neil really quickly but one question that i have is the relationship between tool choice and role in the organization has always been pretty tight. Roles have changed as a consequence of the availability of tools. Now we talked about some of the other predictions. How the data scientist role is going to change. As we think about some of these open AI development frameworks, how are they going to accommodate the different people that are going to be responsible for building and creating business value out of AI and data? >> Pete, hit it on another level that i didn't raise in my recent predictions document, but i'll just quickly touch on it. We're also seeing the development of open devops environments within which teams of collaborators, data scientists, subject matter experts, data engineers and so forth will be able to build and model and train and deploy deep learning and so forth within a standard workflow where each one of them has task-oriented tools to enable their piece but they all share a common governance around the models, the data and so forth. In fact, we published a report several months ago, Wikibon, talking about devops for data science, and this is a huge research focus for us going forward, and really, for the industry as a whole. It's productionizing of AI in terms of building and deploying the most critical applications, the most innovative applications now in business. >> Great, Jim, thanks very much for that. So Neil, I want to turn to you now. One of the challenges that the big data and the computing industry faces overall is that how much longer are we going to be able to utilize the technologies that have taken us through the first 50 years at the hardware level, and there is some promise in some new approaches to thinking about computing. What's your prediction? >> Well in 2018, you're going to see a demonstration of an actual quantum computer chip that's built on top of existing silicone technology and fabrication. This is a real big deal because what this group in the University of New South Wales came up with was a way to layer traditional transistors and silicon on top of those wacky quantum bits to control them, and to deal with, I don't want to get too technical about that, but the point is that quantum computing has the promise of moving computing light years ahead of where we are now. We've managed to build lots of great software on things that go on or off, and quantum computing is much more than that. I think what you're going to see in 2018 is a demonstration of actual quantum computing chips built on this, and the big deal in that is that we can take these existing machines and factories and capital equipment designed for silicone, and start to produce quantum chips without basically developing a whole new industry. Now why is this important? It's only the first step because these things are not going to be based on the existing Intel i86 instruction set, so all new software will have to be developed, software engineers are going to have to learn a whole new way of doing things, but the possibilities are endless. If you can think about a drug discovery, or curing disease, or dealing with the climate, or new forms of energy to propel us into space, that's where quantum computing is likely to take this. >> Yeah, quantum computing, just to bring a, kind of a fine point on it, allows, at any given time, the machine to be in multiple different states, and it's that fact that allows, in many respects, a problem to be attacked from a large number of directions at the same time, and then test each of them out, so it has a natural affinity with some of the things that we think about in AI, so it's going to have an enormous impact over the course of the next few years and it's going to be interesting to see how this plays out. So David Floyer, I now want to turn to you. We're not likely to see quantum computing at the edge anytime soon, by virtue of some of the technologies we face. More likely it'll be specialized processors up in the cloud service provider in the near term. But what are you going to talk about when we think about the role that the edge is going to play in the industry, and the impacts it's going to have on, quite frankly, the evolution of de facto standards? >> Well, I'd like to focus on the economics of edge devices. And my prediction is that the economics of consumer-led volume will dominate the design of IoT devices at the edge. If you take an IoT device, it's made up of sensors and advanced analytics and AI, and specifically designed compute elements, and together with the physical setup of fitting it into wherever you're going to put it, that is the overall device that will be put into the edge, and that's where all of the data is going to be generated, and obviously, if you generate data somewhere, the most efficient way of processing that data is actually at the edge itself, so you don't have to transport huge amounts of data. So the prediction is that new vendors with deep knowledge of the technology itself, using all the tools that Jim was talking about, and deep knowledge of the end user environments and the specific solutions that they're going to offer, they will come out with much lower cost solutions than traditional vendors. So to put a little bit of color around it, let's take a couple of real-world examples where this is already in place in the consumer world, and will be the basis of solutions in the enterprise. If we take the Apple iPhone X, it has facial recognition built-in, and it has facial recognition built-in on their A11 chips, but they're bionic chips. They've got GPUs, they've got neural networks all in the chip itself, and the total cost of that solution is around a hundred dollars in terms of these parts, and that includes the software. So if we take that hundred dollars and put it into what it would actually be priced at, that's around $300. So that's a much, much lower cost than a traditional IT vendor could ever do, and a much, at least an order of magnitude, and probably two orders of magnitude cheaper than an IT department could produce for its own use. So that leaves (mumbles) inclusions, going to be a lot of new vendors. People like Sony, for example, Hitachi, Fujitsu, Honeywell. Possibly people like Apple and Microsoft. Nvidia, Samsung, and many companies that we'll predict are going to come out of India, China and Russia who have strong mathematical educational programs. So the action item is for CIOs, is to really look carefully at the projects that you are looking at, and determine, do I really have the volume to be unique in this area? If that volume, if it's a problem which is going to be industry-wide, the advice we would give is wait for that device to come out from a specialized vendor rather than develop it yourself. And focus investment on areas where you have both the volume of devices and the volume of data that will allow you to be successful. >> All right, David, thank you very much. So let me wrap this week's Action Item, which has been kind of a bridge, but we've looked specifically at some of the predictions that didn't make it into our recent predictions webinar, and if I want to try to summarize or try to bring all these things together, here's what I think what we'd say. Number one, we'd say that the development community has to prepare itself for some pretty significant changes as a consequence of having an application development environment that's more probabilistic, driven by data and driven by AI and related technologies, and we think that there will be new frameworks that are deployed in 2018, and that's just where it's going to start, and will mature over the next few years as we heard from Jim Kobielus. We've also heard that there is going to be a new computing architecture that's going to drive change, perhaps for the next 50 years, and the whole concept of quantum computing is very, very real, and it's going to have significant implications. Now it will take some time to roll out, but again, software developers have to think about the implications of some these new architectures on their work because not only are they going to have to deal with technology approaches that are driven by data, but they're also going to have to look at entirely new ways of framing problems because it used to be about something different than it is today. The next thing that we need to think about is that there still is going to be the economics of computing that are going to ultimately shape how all of this plays out. David Floyer talked about, specifically at the edge, where Wikibon believes it's going to have an enormous implication on the true cost of computing and how well some of these complex problems actually find their way into commercial and other domains. So with a background of those threee things, we think, ultimately, that's an addendum to the predictions that we have and once again, i'm Peter Burris. Thank you very much for joining us for Action Item, and we look forward to working with you more closely over the course of the next year, 2018, as we envision the new changes and the practice of how to make those changes a reality. From our Palo Alto theCUBE studios, this has been Action Item. (bright electronic music)

>> Narrator: Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE. Covering AWS re:Invent 2017 presented by AWS, Intel and our ecosystem of partners. >> Hello and welcome back. Live here is theCUBE's exclusive coverage here in Las Vegas. 45,000 people attending Amazon Web Services' AWS re:Invent 2017. I'm John Furrier with Lisa Martin. Our next guest is Miles Kingston, he is the General Manager of the Smart Home Group at Intel Corporation. Miles, it's great to have you. >> Thank you so much for having me here, I'm really happy to be here. >> Welcome to theCUBE Alumni Club. First time on. All the benefits you get as being an Alumni is to come back again. >> Can't wait, I'll be here next year, for sure. >> Certainly, you are running a new business for Intel, I'd like to get some details on that, because smart homes. We were at the Samsung Developer Conference, we saw smart fridge, smart living room. So we're starting to see this become a reality, for the CES, every 10 years, that's smart living room. So finally, with cloud and all of the computing power, it's arrived or has it? >> I believe we're almost there. I think the technology has finally advanced enough and there is so much data available now that you have this combination of this technology that can analyze all of this data and truly start doing some of the artificial intelligence that will help you make your home smarter. >> And we've certainly seen the growth of Siri with Apple, Alexa for the home with Amazon, just really go crazy. In fact, during the Industry Day, yesterday, you saw the repeat session most attended by developers, was Alexa. So Alexa's got the minds and has captured the imagination of the developers. Where does it go from here and what is the difference between a smart home and a connected home? Can you just take a minute to explain and set the table on that? >> Yeah and I agree, the voice capability in the home, it's absolutely foundational. I think I saw a recent statistic that by 2022, 55% of US households are expected to have a smart speaker type device in their home. So that's a massive percentage. So I think, if you look in the industry, connected home and smart home, they're often use synonymously. We personally look at it as an evolution. And so what I mean by that is, today, we think the home is extremely connected. If I talk about my house, and I'm a total geek about this stuff, I've got 60 devices connected to an access point, I've got another 60 devices connected to an IOT hub. My home does not feel very smart. It's crazy connected, I can turn on lights on and off, sprinklers on and off, it's not yet smart. What we're really focused on at Intel, is accelerating that transition for your home to truly become a smart home and not just a connected home. >> And software is a key part of it, and I've seen developers attack this area very nicely. At the same time, the surface area with these Smart Homes for security issues, hackers. Cause WiFi is, you can run a process on, these are computers. So how does security fit into all of this? >> Yeah, security is huge and so at Intel we're focused on four technology pillars, which we'll get through during this discussion. One of the first ones is connectivity, and we actually have technology that goes into a WiFi access point, the actual silicon. It's optimized for many clients to be in the home, and also, we've partnered with companies, like McAfee, on security software that will sit on top of that. That will actually manage all of the connected devices in your home, as that extra layer of security. So we fundamentally agree that the security is paramount. >> One of the things that I saw on the website that says, Intel is taking a radically different approach based on proactive research into ways to increase smart home adoption. What makes Intel's approach radically different? >> Yeah, so I'm glad that you asked that. We've spent years going into thousands of consumers' homes in North America, Western Europe, China, etc. To truly understand some of the pain points they were experiencing. From that, we basically, gave all this information to our architects and we really synthesized it into what areas we need to advance technology to enable some of these richer use cases. So we're really working on those foundational building blocks and so those four ones I mentioned earlier, connectivity, that one is paramount. You know, if you want to add 35 to 100 devices in your home, you better make sure they're all connected, all the time and that you've got good bandwidth between them. The second technology was voice, and it's not just voice in one place in your home, it's voice throughout your home. You don't want to have to run to the kitchen to turn your bedroom lights on. And then, vision. You know, making sure your home has the ability to see more. It could be cameras, could be motion sensors, it could be vision sensors. And then this last one is this local intelligence. This artificial intelligence. So the unique approach that Intel is taking is across all of our assets. In the data center, in our artificial intelligence organization, in our new technology organization, our IOT organization, in our client computing group. We're taking all of these assets and investing them in those four pillars and kind of really delivering unique solutions, and there's actually a couple of them that have been on display this week so far. >> How about DeepLens? That certainly was an awesome keynote point, and the device that Andy introduced is essentially a wireless device, that is basically that machine learning an AI in it. And that is awesome, because it's also an IOT device, it's got so much versatility to it. What's behind that? Can you give some color to DeepLens? What does it mean for people? >> So, we're really excited about that one. We partnered with Amazon at AWS on that for quite some time. So, just a reminder to everybody, that is the first Deep Learning enabled wireless camera. And what we're helped do in that, is it's got an Intel Atom processor inside that actually runs the vision processing workload. We also contributed a Deep Learning toolkit, kind of a software middleware layer, and we've also got the Intel Compute Library for deep neural networks. So basically, a lot of preconfigured algorithms that developers can use. The bigger thing, though, is when I talked about those four technology pillars; the vision pillar, as well as the artificial intelligence pillar, this is a proof point of exactly that. Running an instance of the AWS service on a local device in the home to do this computer vision. >> When will that device be available? And what's the price point? Can we get our hands on one? And how are people going to be getting this? >> Yeah, so what was announced during the keynote today is that there are actually some Deep Learning workshops today, here at re:Invent where they're actually being given away, and then actually as soon as the announcement was made during the keynote today, they're actually available for pre-order on Amazon.com right now. I'm not actually sure on the shipping date on Amazon, but anybody can go and check. >> Jeff Frick, go get one of those quickly. Order it, put my credit card down. >> Miles: Yes, please do. >> Well, that's super exciting and now, where's the impact in that? Because it seems like it could be a great IOT device. It seems like it would be a fun consumer device. Where do you guys see the use cases for these developing? >> So the reason I'm excited about this one, is I fundamentally believe that vision is going to enable some richer use cases. The only way we're going to get those though, is if you get these brilliant developers getting their hands on the hardware, with someone like Amazon, who's made all of the machine learning, and the cloud and all of the pieces easier. It's now going to make it very easy for thousands, ideally, hundreds of thousands of developers to start working on this, so they can enable these new use cases. >> The pace of innovation that AWS has set, it's palpable here, we hear it, we feel it. This is a relatively new business unit for Intel. You announced this, about a year ago at re:Invent 2016? Are you trying to match the accelerated pace of innovation that AWS has? And what do you see going on in the next 12 months? Where do you think we'll be 12 months from now? >> Yeah, so I think we're definitely trying to be a fantastic technology partner for Amazon. One of the things we have since last re:Invent is we announced we were going to do some reference designs and developer kits to help get Alexa everywhere. So during this trade show, actually, we are holding, I can't remember the exact number, but many workshops, where we are providing the participants with a Speech Enabling Developer toolkit. And basically, what this is, is it's got an Intel platform, with Intel's dual DSP on it, a microarray, and it's paired with Raspberry Pi. So basically, this will allow anybody who already makes a product, it will allow them to easily integrate Alexa into that product with Intel inside. Which is perfect for us. >> So obviously, we're super excited, we love the cloud. I'm kind of a fanboy of the cloud, being a developer in my old days, but the resources that you get out of the cloud are amazing. But now when you start looking at these devices like DeepLens, the possibilities are limitless. So it's really interesting. The question I have for you is, you know, we had Tom Siebel on earlier, pioneer, invented the CRM category. He's now the CEO of C3 IOT, and I asked him, why are you doing a startup, you're a billionaire. You're rich, you don't need to do it. He goes, "I'm a computer guy, I love doing this." He's an entrepreneur at heart. But he said something interesting, he said that the two waves that he surfs, they call him a big time surfer, he's hanging 10 on the waves, is IOT and AI. This is an opportunity for you guys to reimagine the smart home. How important is the IOT trend and the AI trend for really doing it right with smart home, and whatever we're calling it. There's an opportunity there. How are you guys viewing that vision? What progress points have you identified at Intel, to kind of, check? >> Completely agree. For me, AI really is the key turning point here. 'Cause even just talking about connected versus smart, the thing that makes it smart is the ability to learn and think for itself. And the reason we have focused on those technology pillars, is we believe that by adding voice everywhere in the home, and the listening capability, as well as adding the vision capability, you're going to enable all of this rich new data, which you have to have some of these AI tools to make any sense of, and when you get to video, you absolutely have to have some amount of it locally. So, that either for bandwidth reasons, for latency reasons, for privacy reasons, like some of the examples that were given in the keynote today, you just want to keep that stuff locally. >> And having policy and running on it, you know, access points are interesting, it gives you connectivity, but these are computers, so if someone gets malware on the home, they can run a full threaded process on these machines. Sometimes you might not want that. You want to be able to control that. >> Yes, absolutely. We would really believe that the wireless access point in the home is one of the greatest areas where you can add additional security in the home and protect all of the devices. >> So you mentioned, I think 120 different devices in your home that are connected. How far away do you think your home is from being, from going from connected to smart? What's that timeline like? >> You know what I think, honestly, I think a lot of the hardware is already there. And the examples I will give is, and I'm not just saying this because I'm here, but I actually do have 15 Echos in my house because I do want to be able to control all of the infrastructure everywhere in the home. I do believe in the future, those devices will be listening for anomalies, like glass breaking, a dog barking, a baby crying, and I believe the hardware we have today is very capable of doing that. Similarly, I think that a lot of the cameras today are trained to, whenever they see motion, to do certain things and to start recording. I think that use case is going to evolve over time as well, so I truly believe that we are probably two years away from really seeing, with some of the existing infrastructure, truly being able to enable some smarter home use cases. >> The renaissance going on, the creativity is going to be amazing. I'm looking at a tweet that Bert Latimar, from our team made, on our last interview with the Washington County Sheriff, customer of Amazon, pays $6 a month for getting all the mugshots. He goes, "I'm gonna use DeepLens for things like "recognizing scars and tattoos." Because now they have to take pictures when someone comes in as a criminal, but now with DeepLens, they can program it to look for tattoos. >> Yeah, absolutely. And if you see things like the Ring Doorbell today, they have that neighborhood application of it so you can actually share within your local neighborhood if somebody had a package stolen, they can post a picture of that person. And even just security cameras, my house, it feels like Fort Knox sometimes, I've got so many security cameras. It used to be, every time there was a windstorm, I got 25 alerts on my phone, because a branch was blowing. Now I have security cameras that actually can do facial recognition and say, your son is home, your daughter is home, your wife is home. >> So are all the houses going to have a little sign that says,"Protected by Alexa and Intel and DeepLens" >> Don't you dare, exactly. (laughs) >> Lisa: And no sneaking out for the kids. >> Yes, exactly. >> Alright, so real quick to end the segment, quickly summarize and share, what is the Intel relationship with Amazon Web Services? Talk about the partnership. >> It's a great relationship. We've been partnering with Amazon for over a decade, starting with AWS. Over the last couple of years, we've started working closely with them on their first party products. So, many of you have seen the Echo Show and the Echo Look, that has Intel inside. It also has a RealSense Camera in the Look. We've now enabled the Speech Enabling Developer Kit, which is meant to help get Alexa everywhere, running on Intel. We've now done DeepLens, which is a great example of local artificial intelligence. Partnered with all the work we've done with them in the cloud, so it really is, I would say the partnership expands all the way from the very edge device in the home, all the way to the cloud. >> Miles, thanks for coming, Miles Kingston with Intel, General Manager of the Smart Home Group, new business unit at Intel, really reimagining the future for people's lives. I think in this great case where technology can actually help people, rather than making it any more complicated. Which we all know if we have access points and kids gaming, it can be a problem. It's theCUBE, live here in Las Vegas. 45,000 people here at Amazon re:Invent. Five years ago, our first show, only 7,000. Now what amazing growth. Thanks so much for coming out, Lisa Martin and John Furrier here, reporting from theCUBE. More coverage after this short break. (light music)

>> Narrator: Live from Las Vegas. It's The Cube, covering AWS re:Invent 2017, presented by AWS, Intel, and our ecosystem of partners. >> Hey, welcome back to The Cube, our continuous coverage of AWS 2017. AWS re:Invent, I should say. 42,000 people, a lot of them here in the room here. I'm Lisa Martin with my co-host Keith Townsend. We're excited to be joined by a Cube alumni extraordinaire, Ramin Sayar, CEO and president of Sumo Logic. Welcome back to The Cube. >> Great. Thanks for having me. It's good to be back. >> You guys have had a big announcement today with AWS. What does that mean? What's in there for your customers? >> Sure. Well, it's good to know that for over seven and a half years we've been close partners with AWS. So we've designed and co-designed over 100 services together with AWS. And today's announcements around GuardDuty in particular is taking all the basic compute, network, storage, persistent type of stuff and toolkits and paths to the next level because, as you've seen, security has always been an afterthought when it comes to workloads and data in the cloud. So we've been pushing Amazon in particular to really up their game on security and so we designed the GuardDuty service to really start to provide a lens into threat intelligence with respect to cloud data. >> Why do you think security still continues to be not as big of a focus? We hear different things, it's not as big of a concern for customers anymore, but that's not actually true. Why do you think that trend is out there? >> Well, I don't think it's about focus, it's about uncertainty, and I say that because a lot of the CISOs that we engage with consistently, who use our platform to get not only visibility to user behavior, or infrastructure, or the workloads, when they move from the traditional world to this new world of cloud, there's uncertainty about what to do. There's uncertainty about what services to use because a lot of the cloud providers until recently haven't had a lot of these capabilities provided. So, in our case, as an example, seven and a half years ago when we started, born and bred in the cloud, we built our whole PKI infrastructure. We built encryption in transit and at rest. So we had to build all that stuff ahead of what the platform like Amazon had provided. So we've been able to leverage all those experiences and extend the platform for not only cloud data, but on-prem data to provide that unified view. So the vantage point we have as a result is really be that trusted advisor for CISOs and to guide them toward things like CloudTrail, that's part of their announcement. Things like VPC flow logs, and what they should and should not do there. And so the announcement today is really more of a guidance for CISOs as well as developers and operations folks, to better understand what they need to do differently in the cloud, not just from the technology point of view, but also from a threat intelligence point of view. >> So let's talk a little bit about education, because this is I think an opportunity to educate a lot of the market. Amazon has always preached share responsibility. They take care of the locks, the guards, the physical data center, all the way up to the hypervisor. And the hypervisor is ironically becoming less important with today's announcements, however there seems to be some uncertainty still with clients as to where their responsibility starts. How do you guys help with that conversation of shared responsibility? >> Well it actually starts back to the point I just made. In a lot of cases, we've become the trusted advisor because we've had such a long history of building a mission-critical platform that's analyzing 100 plus petabytes of data every single day. And so we know what the struggles are to understand new services as they come out, whether it's Amazon or another cloud provider, and what the implications of those services are. So now back to the root of the question here, what we really try to do is assess the maturity of a lot of our customers. So we really understand, well what are you using today with respect to SaaS applications? How much of your data is inside your data centers versus potentially in a cloud platform like AWS? What types of cloud services are you using? That allows to kind of categorize the maturity, but also start to lay out prescriptive roadmap as to what new application data, new infrastructure data, as well as the potential vulnerabilities and risks associated with users or infrastructure that they need to be concerned with when they make that transition to the cloud, or migration, or build natively in the cloud. >> So how much concern is it out there over these new services like Lambda that are no longer associated with, we can't just put an IP address or a firewall and say okay, this host can't talk to this host. It's service and data-based. Services like AWS that we really can't control from an OS-perspective, how's that impacting the conversation? >> So that's actually an interesting aspect of what the ecosystem provides, right. We analyze a lot of those connectivity and transport aspects because we look at the pattern of those datas. And it's not just about what's running in AWS, what's important here is you have your CDN providers, you have your on-premise data centers, you have your Kolos, and from a security posture perspective, you need a holistic view. More and more customers are moving away from packaged, on-prem apps to SaaS, and so understanding what the implications are from a 360-degree view is what Sumo helps provide them to do. And more specifically, back to the announcement here, the role that we play is not only to be that advocate, but also the champion to AWS because we're bringing a lot of these customers through in this migration. So a good example, they mentioned a customer called Samsung and SmartThings. They're one of our large customers of an IoT use case. And they're pushing the boundaries on understanding how to start to compress and encrypt this data, but start to analyze it real-time across millions and millions of devices that need to come in to look at the fingerprints and patterns. Those are services not yet available in Amazon or GCP or at Azure yet. So we're helping with SmartThings for example go to these platform providers and start to design new services or design new capabilities of existing services. >> One of the things I wanted to ask is a lot of companies talk about CICD. Sumo Logic is talking about continuous intelligence and you said the world holistic a minute ago, what is continuous intelligence? What does it mean? How does it differentiate Sumo Logic? >> Yeah so our view of this is that unfortunately in the fragmented world we live in, and the complexity of all these point tools that address small aspects of different parts of your stack, your application stack, as well as the lifecycle, to your point around CICD. There's never been a comprehensive platform like Sumo that not only addresses the lifecycle, everything from your source code control system, to your continuous release and deployment, to your downstream monitoring, let alone everything from bare metal, on-prem, to containerized, to logic. So Sumo actually created this strategy about seven and a half years ago when we founded the company that we wanna be the full-stack vendor, we wanna be the full-stack data analytics for structured data as well as unstructured data. And so the relevance of continuous intelligence in that notion is we're not only providing full-stack or 360, but we're also providing mechanisms to look at fingerprints and patterns in that data to take a lot of the guesswork out that typically a CISO's team or developer needs to do during the deployment of an application, during the release of infrastructure, or God forbid, in the case that there's been a breach. So we help proactively address these issues because we use a lot of machine learning algorithms, we use a lot of pattern recognition to understand what's normal and abnormal and we surface that up into a very salient view in terms of dashboards and alerts. >> So what does this solution look and feel like? I think on the SaaS part of it, that's pretty straightforward, but in the hybrid cloud environment in which I have on-premises information data that I'm trying to protect, that's talking to these SaaS cloud components, whether it's Amazon services or anyone else, what does the on-prem part of that look like? >> So interesting enough, it doesn't look like anything different than what the off-prem would look like, or in the cloud, because for us it's just where the data resides that we're collecting from. So whether it's top-of-rack switch, to discreet hardware, to converged hardware, to your CDNs, to your SaaS apps, to your cloud infrastructure services, we collect, ingest, analyze all that data and start to separate the signal-to-noise and provide meaningful, digestible insights, and that's what we refer to as continuous intelligence. >> What are your thoughts about security being an enabler of digital transformation? >> What's interesting is we predicted this probably about almost two years ago now, where we said it's no longer about this DevOps, it's about the DevSecOps model, right. And it's not about the security team being in the back room, but in the front room, meaning that the security operations, the CISO, the security analysts needs to have a role in how these new architectures, new infrastructures are built and managed. And so what we see in a lot of organizations is whether those teams are merged or whether they're starting to work together, they need one single platform and that's why they choose Sumo. So you're seeing the formation informally of DevSecOps as well as formally of DevSecOps. And that's really providing the agility to be able to release applications faster, while also providing the security and credibility for making sure there's not a breach, a data breach or a user issue. >> So from a regulatory perspective, GDPR coming up quick, 2018 in May. A lot of customers are looking towards their security partners to help understand the data that they have on-premises, the data they have in the cloud, and get controls around that so they can avoid massive, 4% of their revenue fines, how does Sumo help with those accounts? >> Well back to your question just from right now, I think what's happening there is whether they're regulatory or industry-related standards, or security teams wanting to be more proactive, they're actually starting to be enablers for the business, surprisingly. And so what we're seeing in the case of GDPR is that's an accelerant to adopt cloud, because we actually isolate the data down into regions, and the way we've architected our platform from day one has always been a true, multi-tenant SaaS technology platform. And so there's not that worry about data resiliency and where it resides and how you get access to it because we've built all that out. And so when we go through all of our own attestations, whether it's SOC Type 1, Type 2, GDPR as an initiative, what we're doing for HIPAA, what we're doing for a plethora of other things, usually the CISO says "Ah, I get it, you're way more secure, now help me." "Because I don't want the folks in development or operations "to go amok, so to speak, I wanna be an enabler, "not Doctor No." >> So that relationship with the developer, how seamless is that? Are they changing their workflows from a development process? >> Absolutely, I think what's happening now is not only the formation of this DevSecOps model, you're starting to see the rationalization of tools to be able to support that. And so in a lot of cases, the CISOs are being pulled in because the business made the decision to move to the cloud. Now the CISO needs a new posture because of data access, data privacy, things like we just talked about, GDPR, and once they realize that Sumo can provide that lens and provide the analytics, but enable the developers to have the agility, they become our biggest advocate in a lot of these accounts. So they're the ones often times with initial budget, because there's a lot more budget typically for security, they'll bring Sumo Logic in, they deploy it, and then they extend it to other groups. I'll give you an example, we started with Pinterest. Pinterest had a PCI audit issue. They had a short window where they had to pass their auditor's requirements. They brought us in and in a span of a few weeks, we helped them get through that audit. They had the Sumo console and all the alerts, notifications up on the dashboard. The DevOps team got wind of it, six weeks later we did a multimillion-dollar, multi-year deal with them for their entire elastic displacement and their monitoring stack. That's all about the land and expand model that Sumo's been doing now for seven and a half years. And it's predicated on security being the champion, not always DevOps being the champion. >> Fantastic, so you guys have a booth here, we can see it right this direction. What are some of the cool things, last question, that people can see and learn coming to the Sumo booth here at AWS? >> So I think it's probably a bigger point that we're trying to illustrate here at the conference and just our point of view in general, I think the announcements that we all saw today with respect to what Jassy talked about, the ML toolkits, the things around Kubernetes, it's really about flexibility around choice. So what we're actually demoing here is our support for Kubernetes, and Docker containers, but it's all wrapped up into something even more intriguing here, and it's something that we look at as, something we refer to as, the analytics economy. All this technology, all this power that's being delivered and announced today, is empowering a slew of new use cases that have not been yet addressed. And so we feel like we're the forerunner in that in helping design things with GuardDuty for example, but it's not just about things that are running in AWS. I know we're at this event, but customers want choice. That's why Docker, that's why Kubernetes, that's why multi-cloud is important. So what they'll find in our booth is not only the best platform for building, running, and securing modern apps on AWS, but also the ability to have that portability and flexibility to pulling in GCP, to Azure, to their own data centers, because that's the world we live in, the complex world. >> Wow, exciting, your passion and excitement for what you guys do and how you're really have successfully become a trusted advisor is very palpable. So we'll have to have you back on the show, 'cause there's clearly a lot more to talk about. Unfortunately we're out of time. I'm Lisa Martin, for Keith Townsend and Ramin Sayar, thank you so much for watching The Cube. Stick around, we're live on day two of AWS re:Invent 2017. We'll be right back. (electronic music)

>> Narrator: From San Francisco, it's The Cube. Covering Samsung Developer Conference 2017, brought to you by Samsung. (upbeat music) >> Okay, welcome back, everyone. Live here, in San Francisco, for day two. We're winding down day two of two days of wall to wall coverage, The Cube's exclusive coverage of Samsung Developer Conference. I'm John Furrier the founder, co-founder of SiliconANGLE Media (mumbles) the Cube our next guest Larry Cutler, co-founder and CTO of Baobab Studios. >> You got it right. >> And you're co-founder and CEO Maureen Fan was at our Grace Hopper event. >> Larry: Yes. >> Well thanks for joining us. >> Thank you for having me. >> So you guys are doing great. Love the story-telling, gaming, tech culture coming together here at Samsung. >> Yep. >> And seeing the future. The future, if you connect the dots, is augmented reality voice-activated, headphones that can be hacked and programmed and customized. You guys are doing some interesting things, you've got some good awards. Take a minute to talk about your studios. What are you guys doing, what's the aha moment for you guys. What should people know? >> So we at Baobab Studios, we're reinventing animated storytelling using VR. And so what we've, our aha moment was feeling that you could completely immerse yourself in the world in VR. And when we started thinking about well what is so special about an animated film, it's really about transporting you to faraway worlds, and making those worlds so real that you could like reach out and touch them. And then if you think about VR, that's kind of the same thing, where VR's promise is being able to transport you to incredible places and to make you really feel like you're in those worlds and you're part of those worlds. >> And to relax and chill a little bit too. >> Well relax and chill as well. >> Or entertainment or to be thrilled. >> So in our case we wanted to take all the experience that we have telling stories at places like Pixar and Dreamworks and apply that into this new medium. And so we found that VR is an incredibly powerful medium, and it really is one that's unlike film and unlike games. So, you're talking about bringing together the expertise of people from films, and people from games. That's critical to what we're doing, and yet at the same time, the experience is something that's totally different. >> Yeah we were commenting with some of our guys in our office how Twitch was experimenting with using the comments to drive the game behavior. You start to see new kinds of game systems develop around the storytelling as more of a behavioral dynamic, not the boring game I figured out, or the multi-player game with my same friends, or whatever that's going on, you're seeing a whole new level of creativity going on, one. Two, the other question is how much does it cost to make these things, 'cause Dreamworks and these guys are spending a lot of dough to do animation. >> Larry: Yes. >> I mean it's not cheap, so how do you guys crack the code on keeping it low, not low-budget, but low-cost and also intelligent is that the secret sauce? >> Yes well that's certainly super important for us. You know we're a start-up company, so obviously we need to be able to have a pipeline that if we run efficiently and you know for us, I think what we've done is we've brought together some of the best people, you know. So we've hired our friends, we've hired people who are really experts in the field, and we're really creating a next-generation VR platform so that we can actually create these animated experiences, be able to experiment in this space. You know, sort of try out different techniques and storytelling methodologies and at the same time do it in a way that we can, you know, sort of experiment as much as possible. >> John: Talk about some of the awards you guys had, I mean, you guys done some things. Share some of the accolades you've gotten. >> Yes, so, I mean what's amazing is that we started with our first piece of content Invasion!, and we premiered it last year in April at Tribecca Film Festival, and it's really gone on to, first of all, from a consumer standpoint, it's one of the most popular downloaded pieces of content on all the VR platforms, and at the same time it's been shown at a number of different film festivals, and it recently won an Emmy, so we're very excited about that, and, you know, what we realize is that audiences just fell in love with this bunny character Chloe. So Invasion! is this story about two aliens that try to take over Earth, and they're thwarted not by humans with powerful weapons, but by cute little woodland creatures. In the first episode in Invasion! they're thwarted by this cute little bunny Chloe, and what happens is that at the very beginning of the piece, Chloe like hops up to you, and if you look down you're a little bunny in the scene, you've got bunny legs, you can hop around. And audiences, you know, the viewer just reacted in ways that you would never do in a film, like people are waving at Chloe, a lot of people reach out and try to pet Chloe, a lot of people mimic what Chloe's doing, and in short people are just treating Chloe as if she's real. And it made us realize that there's something really powerful here that is really worth kind of leaning in and digging deeper into. >> And what was the next step after that, so you went what you went, some development, was it the game, was it the character development? How do you double-down on them, I'm just kind of curious on thinking about how the, on the thinking behind it. >> It was really interesting because we, in Invasion! we were kind of the first to make you a character in the story, but at the time there really weren't hand controllers, or any of the devices so that you could actually really have sort of a more like increased role in the story. And so at the same time, people really felt that they were front and center, and they felt this sense of protecting Chloe from the aliens 'cause you're placed right in the center of the story. And so with Asteroids! when we started, we just wanted to dive deeper into that idea of you playing an active role in the story. And so in Asteroids! we focused on the two alien characters Mac and Cheez and their relationship, and you're a helper robot on the ship, so you have. >> So how do I get involved and get these stories, do I have to have a VR kit? So I don't have, I haven't bought anything yet VR-wise, so for me, how do I engage with you guys, what do I do? Do I buy Oculus Rift, or certain headsets? >> So our stuff is meant to be available for everyone. We really want to have as many people be able to see our content as possible. And so first of all, if you have a VR headset of any type, our, Invasion! is available on all those platforms, so that's the high-end headsets like the Rift and Vive, the PlayStation VR for Sony, as well as if you have a mobile phone like a Samsung phone, you can plug it into your VR. At the same time, we also have a Baobab Cardboard app, so you don't even need to have VR to see our product. So you just get an IOS or Android app, a Baobab app. >> So I'm in the market to buy a headset, I'm not price sensitive, what should I buy? What would you recommend? (Larry chuckling) >> Well there really are so many options, so you know obviously at the high >> John: What would you get? >> Well at the highest end, you know, getting a Rift or Vive really gives you the full VR experience because it's really tracking your position and orientation so you can actually walk around a space, the characters can react to you in believable ways, and it's all happening in real time. And on the other hand, the Sony PlayStation VR's are really affordable if you've got a Sony Playstation, you just buy the PSVR headset, you plug it right in and you're ready to go. I'm really excited looking forward to a world where you're not tethered to your computer, and so it's really exciting to see these stand-alone headsets that are going to come out that basically there's no tethering to a computer and yet you have that same inside-out tracking so that >> And this is the Samsung vision, right? The Samsung vision is to use their displays. >> Yes, exactly. See right now what you have, which is, which is already really exciting, is you take your Samsung phone, you plug it into a Gear VR, and the one thing that's missing is that you're not able to track both the position and orientation of where you are, and so the next generation headsets are going to have that. And the experiences will be much higher feeling. >> Alright cool, so then I, I'll actually download all of this stuff. So as the CTO of the venture, your job is to kind of look over the landscape. You have to have the 20 mile stare of the future, not screw it up, but you've got to win the present. >> Larry: Yes, we're all about being able to deliver in the present and look forward to the future. >> And that's the key, and you have that unique skill as an entrepreneur. What are you guys doing now technically and with the product, what are some of the key things that people should know about, because I mean I look at the CG and the animation world, and you see the Moore's law kind of coming that way, right, so you go wow, as someone with a live video, I would love to have a bunny and the cube set right here, right? So we see a future where I want to immerse myself with characters, not just stickers. >> We of course see that as well, so you know, obviously. >> John: Is expensive I mean it must be, 'cause in the old days what, you had the artists, monster storage, tons of compute, what's it like now? >> Well we're a really small start-up company, so we are not a, you know, 300 person organization that is producing a full animated film. We're a small team of artists and engineers working together in the same way that we had that same excitement in the early days. I started my career at Pixar in some of their earlier films, and it was that same >> John: Power work stations, you had that high-end gear. >> Yeah so it was that same excitement in those early days, like we just had to figure out like how are we going to actually create this shot, how are we going to like, you know, build this character, how are we going to like finish this on time. And we have that same exact excitement in the office. >> When were you at Pixar, were you there for the Toy Story kind of thing? >> Yeah, so I worked on the Toy Story films, and A Bug's Life and Monster's Inc., and then I went over to Dreamworks and headed up all of their character technologies on their various films. >> Okay so you guys do anything different than those guys, or are you guys more focused more simple? >> Yeah, I mean what's interesting is that this is really a new medium and it's a new skill set, because what's happened is that you are part of the world, and for us the thing that's most exciting is that by you being a character, first of all, the other characters are not just able to have, you know, sort of high-quality animation, but they're able to react to you, and so there's there A. a number of technical innovations that you need to overcome so that we can have that same high-quality character performance that I would expect from a Pixar or Dreamworks film happening, running in real time at 90 frames a second on my headset, and at the same time also be able to have those characters react to you and respond to what you're doing. And you know, so we've scratched the surface on that. So one of the things that's really interesting is how two people will actually have all these subconscious communication cues, you know, whether it's eye contact or whether it's two lovers sitting across the table and mirroring each other's behavior, that's the type of thing that we can add into our animation. And at the same time, we have stories where depending on what you do, whether you choose to participate or not, that actually affects the outcome, and affects the way that characters respond to you. And so having much smarter character performances is certainly one area that I think is really exciting. >> And that's going to be interesting for you guys because you have some structured ways to do that, and then some unstructured ways to do it with community data, machine learning, and then you can use bots in a way to help you get data, but you almost could have character developments be dynamic. >> You definitely could, and you know for us I think the thing that is always the biggest point that we come back to is story. And so on one hand we want to tell one story that's really told well, not ten different stories, and on another hand, because you're part of that story, depending on what you do, that's actually going to affect how the characters respond to you, and that could be in a really nuanced way, and so, you know, building up AI systems, and building up the smarts so that you can actually have that type of response, and yet still feel like these characters are alive and breathing. >> Well the Chloe example on Invasion! is great example, you'd love to have that automated, so when you see those magical moments, the story could evolve, you can kind of give it that programmable policy-based taping. (John laughing) >> Yeah exactly so you know, so this is the type of thing. >> We're geeking out here on the set, Larry, great to have you on, super informative content, and I love the world you're in, I think the world's changing, I think you're going to see some interesting dynamics coming, you certainly have the historical view, Pixar and Dreamworks, old school, if you call that old school. >> That's right. >> Now the new school's coming in, certainly AR looks good too. >> Yeah, we're really excited about AR as well. When we think about stories, you know, VR is about transporting you to a different world and having a story take place there. AR is about the characters being alive in your world, both are really exciting. >> Have you seen the Magic Leap demo? >> Larry: Yes, yeah. >> What's it like, can you tell us? >> I'm not allowed to tell. >> John: Is it good? >> Yes, yeah. >> So it's worth half of another half a billion, oh I can't wait. >> That I can't say, you know. I can't comment on their business, but. >> It's a freaking award chest. >> I think there's a lot of exciting things you know, AR. >> They must have a killer demo, I want to find out, I want to see this demo. Magic Leap, I want to to see your demo. All seriousness, great to have you on, and certainly come down to our Cube studios. I want to follow your story, I think you guys are on the cutting edge of a new user experience that's going to bring computer animation, computer graphics, into a new persona as a storytelling, so congratulations. Larry Cutler, how do you say the. >> Baobab. >> Baobab, B-A-O-B-A-B Studios in Redwood City, California. It's the Cube live coverage from Samsung Developer Conference, I'm John Furrier, more after this short break. (peppy music)

>> Announcer: Live from San Francisco it's TheCUBE covering Samsung Developer Conference 2017. Brought to you by Samsung. (digital music) >> Hey welcome back and we're live here in San Francisco this is TheCUBE's exclusive coverage Samsung Developer Conference #SDC2017, I'm John Furrier co-founder of SiliconANGLE Media Coast My next guest is Ken Yeoung tech reporter here inside TheCUBE. I've known Ken for almost 10 years now plus been in the Silicon Valley beat scene covering technology, communities, and all the cutting edge tech but also some of the old established companies. Great to see you. >> Likewise, thanks for having me. >> So tech reporter, let's have a little reporter session here because reporting here at Samsung, to me, is my first developer conference with Samsung. I stopped going to the Apple World Developer Conference when it became too much of a circus around, you know, close to a couple of years before Steve Jobs died. >> Right. >> Now this whole scene well we will have to talk to Steve Gall when we get down there but here, my first one, my reports an awakening I get the TV thing but I'm like IoT that's my world. >> Ken: Oh really? >> I want to see more IoT >> Ken: Yeah. >> So it's good to see Samsung coming into the cloud and owning that. So, that's exciting for me. What do you see as a report that you could file? >> You know, so it's funny because I actually did write a post this morning after watching the keynote yesterday. While I was at VentureBeat a few months ago I reported on Bixby's launch when it came out with the Galaxy S8 and when I heard about what that was it was kind of interesting. That was one of the biggest selling points for me to switch over from my iPhone. And when I tried it out it was interesting. I was kind of wondering how it would stand up against Google Assistant because both of them are installed on the same device. But now as you see with Bixby 2.0 and now with the SmartThings you start to see Samsung's vision. Right now it's on a mobile, it's just very piecemeal. But now when you tackle it on with the TVs, with the fridges, monitors, ovens and everything like that it becomes your entire home. It becomes your Jarvis. You don't actually have to spend 150 bucks or 200 bucks on an Alexa-enabled device or Google Home that most people may not be totally familiar with. But if you have a TV you're familiar with it. >> Obviously you mentioned Jarvis. That's reference to the old sitcom and when Mark Zuckerberg tried his Jarvis project which was, you know, wire his home from scratch. Although a science project, you talk about real utility. I mean so we're getting down to the consumerization so let's take that to the next level. >> Ken: Right. >> If you look at the trends in Silicon Valley it's certainly in the tech industry block, chain and ICOs are really hot. Mission point offerings. That's based on utility right? So, utility-based ICOs, so communities using gamification. Game apps, utility. Samsung, SmartThings. Using their intelligence to not just be the next Amazon. >> Right >> The commerce cloud company, they're just trying to be a better Samsung. >> Ken: Exactly. >> Which they've had some problems in the past and we've heard from analysts here Patrick Morgan was on, pointed out... Illustrated the point. They're a stovepipe company. And with Bixby 2.0 they're like breaking down the silos. We had the execs on here saying that's their goal. >> Ken: Exactly. Yeah if you look on here everything has been siloed. You look at a lot of tech companies now and you don't get to see their grand vision. Everyone has this proto-program when they start these companies and when they expand then you start to see everything come together. Like for example, whether it's Square, whether it's Apple, whether it's Google or Facebook, right? And Samsung, a storied history, right, they've been around for ages with a lot of great technology and they've got their hands in different parts. But from a consumer standpoint you're like likelihood of you having a Samsung device in your home is probably pretty good and so why not just expand that leverage that technology. Right now tech is all about AI. You start to see a lot of the AI stars get acquired or heavily funded and heavily invested. >> Really The Cube is AI, we're AI machine right here. Right here is the bot, analyst report. People are AI watching. But I mean what the hell is AI? AI is machine learning, using software, >> Data collection. >> Nailed it. >> And personalization. And you look at I interviewed a Samsung executive at CAS last year this January, and he was telling me about the three parts. It has to be personal, it has to be contextual and it has to be conversational in terms of AI. What you saw yesterday during the keynote and what executives and the companies have been repeatedly saying is that's what Bixby is. And you could kind of say that's similar to what Google has with Google Assistant you can see that with Alexa but it's still very... Those technologies are very silent. >> What were those three things again? Personal, >> Personable, contextual, and conversational. >> That is awesome, in fact, that connects with what Amy Joe Kim, CEO of ShuffleBrain. She took it from a different angle; she's building these game apps but she's becoming more of a product development. Because it's not just build a game like a Zynga game or you know, something on a mobile phone. She's bringing gaming systems. Her thesis was people are now part of the game. Now those are my words but, she's essentially saying the game system includes data from your friends. >> Right. >> The game might suck but my friends are still there. So there's still some social equity in there. You're bringing it over to the contextual personal, this is the new magic for app developers. Is this leading to AR? >> Oh absolutely. >> I mean we're talking about ... This is the convergence of the new formulas for successful app development. >> Right, I mean we were talking about earlier what is AI and I mentioned all about data and it's absolutely true. Your home is collecting so much data about you that it's going to offer that personal response. So you're talking about is this going to lead to AR? Absolutely, so whatever data it has about your home you might bring your phone out as you go shopping or whatnot. You might be out sight-seeing and have your camera out. And it might bring back some memories, right or might display a photo from your photo album or something. So there's a lot of interesting ties that could come into it and obviously Samsung's camera on their phones are one of the top ones on the market. So there's potential for it, yeah. >> Sorry Ken, I've got to ask you. So looking at the bigger picture now let's look outside of Samsung. We can look at some tell signs here Google on stage clearly not grand-standing but doing their thing. Android, you know, AR core, starting to see that Google DNA. Now they've got tensor flow and a lot of goodness happening in the cloud with Sam Ramji over there kicking ass at Google doing a great job. Okay, they're the big three, some people call it the big seven I call it the big three. It's Amazon, Microsoft, Google. Everyone else is fighting for four, five, six. Depending on who you want to talk to. But those are the three, what I call, native clouds. Ones that are going to be whole-saleing resource. Amazon is not Google, Amazon has no Android. They dropped their phones. Microsoft, Joe Belfiore said hey I'm done with phones they tapped out. So essentially Microsoft taps out of device. They've still got the Xbox. Amazon tapping out of phones. They've got commerce. They've got web service. They've got entertainment. This is going to be interesting. What's your take? >> Well interesting is an under-statement there. I mean, you look at what the ... Amazon, right now, is basically running the show when it comes to virtual assistant or voice-powered assistance. Alexa, Amazon launched a bunch of Alexa products recently and then soon after, I believe it was the last month, Google launches a whole bunch of Google home devices as well. But what's interesting is that both of those companies are targeting... Have a different approach to what Samsung is, right? Remember Samsung's with Bixby 2.0 is all about consolidating the home, right? In my post I coined that it was basically their fight to unite the internet of things kind of thing. But, you know, when it comes to Alexa with Amazon and Google they're targeting not only the smaller integrations with maybe like August or SmartLocks or thermostats and whatnot but they're also going after retailers and businesses. So how many skills can you have on Alexa? How many, what are they called, actions can you have on Google Home? They're going after businesses. >> Well this is the edge of the network so the reason why, again coming back full-circle, I was very critical on day one yesterday. I was kind of like, data IoT that's our wheelhouse in TheCUBE. Not a lot of messaging around that because I don't think Samsung is ready yet and nor should they be given their evolution. But in Amazon's world >> I think they're ... The way they played it yesterday was pretty good a little humble, like they didn't set that expectation like oh my god this is going to >> They didn't dismiss it but they were basically not highlighting it right. >> Well they did enough. They did enough to entice you to tease it but like, look, they have a long way to go to kind of unite it. SmartThings has been around for a while so they've been kind of building it behind the scenes. Now this is like hey now we're going to slap on AI. It's similar to ... >> What do you hear from developers? I've been hearing some chirping here about AI it's got to be standardized and not sure. >> Oh, absolutely. I think a lot of developers will probably want to see hey if I'm going to build... If I want to leverage AI and kind of consolidate I want to be able to have it to maximize my input maximize my reach. Like I don't want to have to build one action here one service skill here. Whatever Samsung's going to call for Bixby. You know I want to make it that one thing. But Samsung's whole modernization that's going to be interesting in terms of your marketplace. How does that play out? You know, Amazon has recently started to monetize or start to incentivize, as it were, developers. And Google if they're not already doing that will probably has plenty of experience in doing that. With Android and now they can do that with Google. >> So I've got to ask you about Facebook. Facebook has been rumored to have a phone coming but I mean Facebook's >> Ken: They tried that once. >> They're Licking their wounds right now. I mean the love on Facebook is not high. Fake news, platform inconsistencies. >> Ken: Ad issues. >> Moves fast, breaks stuff. Zuck is hurting. It's hurting Zuck. Certainly the Russian stuff. I think, first of all, it's really not Facebook's fault. They never claimed to be some original content machine. They just got taken advantage of through bad arbitrage. >> It's gets it to some scale. >> People are not happy with Facebook right now so it's hard for them to choose a phone. >> Well, you're right. There are rumors that they were going to introduce the phone again after... We all remember Facebook Home which was, you know, we won't talk about that anymore. But I think there was talk about them doing a speaker some sort of video thing. I think they were calling it... I believe it's called Project Aloha. I believe Business ETC. and TechCrunch have reported on that extensively. That is going to compete with what Amazon's going. So everyone is going after Amazon, right. So I think don't discount Samsung on this part I think they are going to be I don't want to call them the dark horse but you know, people are kind of ignoring them right now. >> Well if Samsung actually aligned with Amazon that would be very because they'd have their foot in both camps. Google and Amazon. Just play Switzerland and win on both sides. >> Samsung, I think Samsung >> That might be a vital strategy. Kinesis if the customers wanted to do that. Google can provide some cloud for them, don't know how they feel about that. >> Yeah I mean Samsung will definitely be... I think has the appeal with their history they can go after the bigger retailers. The bigger manufacturers to leverage them because there's some stability as opposed to well I'm not going to give access to my data to Amazon you look at Amazon now as Amazon's one of the probably the de facto leader in that space. You see people teaming up with Google to compete against them. You know, there's a anti-Amazony type of alliance out there. >> Well I would say there's a jealousy factor. >> Ken: True, true. >> But a lot of the fud going out there... I saw Matt Asay's article in InfoWorld... And it was over the top basically saying that Amazon's not giving back an open source. I challenged Andy Jesse two years ago on that and Matt's behind the times. Matt you've got to get with the program you're a little bit hardcore pushed there. But I think he's echoing the fear of the community. Amazon's definitely doing open source first of all but the same thing goes for Ali Baba. I asked the founder of Ali Baba cloud last week when I was in China. You guys are taking open source what are you giving back and it was off the record comment and he was like, you know, they want to give back. So, just all kinds of political and or incumbent positions on open source, that to me is going to be the game-changer. Linux foundation, Hipatchi is growing, exponential growth in open source over the next five to ten years. Just in terms of lines of code shipped. >> Right. >> Linux foundation's shown those numbers and 10% of that code is going to be new. 90% of the code's going to be re-used and so forth. >> Ken: Oh absolutely. I mean you're going to need to have a lot of open source in order for this eco-system to really flourish. To build it on your own and build it proprietary it basically locks it down. Didn't Sony deal with that when they were doing, like, they're own memory cards for cameras and stuff and now their cameras are using SD cards now. So you're starting to see, I think, a lot of companies will need to be supportive of open source. In tech you start to see people boasting that, you know, we are doing this in open source. Or you know, Facebook constantly announces hey we are releasing this into open source. LinkedIn will do that. Any company that you talk to will... >> Except Apple. Apple does some open source. >> Apple does some open source, yeah. >> But they're a closed system and they are cool about it. They're up front it. Okay final question, bottom line, Samsung Developer Conference 2017 what should people know that didn't make it or are watching this, what should they know about what they missed and what Samsung's doing, what they need to do better. >> You know I think what really took the two-day conference is basically Bixby. You look at all the sessions; all about Bixby. SmartThings, sure they consolidated everything into the SmartThings cloud, great. But you know SmartThings has been around for a while and I'm interested to see how well they've been doing. I wish they released a little bit more numbers on those. But Bixby it was kind of an interesting 10 million users on them after three months launching in the US which is very is a pretty good number but they still have a bit of a ways to go and they're constantly making improvements which is a very good, good, good thing as well. >> Ken Yeoung, a friend of TheCUBE, tech reporter formerly with VentureBeat now onto his next thing what are you going to do? Take some time off? >> Take some time off, continue writing about what I see and who knows where that takes me. >> Yeah and it's good to get decompressed, you know, log off for a week or so. I went to China I was kind of off Facebook for a week. It felt great. >> Yeah. (laughs) >> No more political posts. One more Colin Kaepernick kneeling down during the national anthem or one more anti-Trump post I'm going to... It was just disaster and then the whole #MeToo thing hit and oh my god it was just so much hate. A lot of good things happening though in the world and it's good to see you writing out there. It's TheCUBE, I'm John Furrier, live in San Francisco, Samsung Developer Conference exclusive Cube coverage live here we'll be right back with more day two coverage of two days. We'll be right back.

From San Francisco, it's the CUBE covering Samsung Developer Conference 2017 brought to you by Samsung. Okay welcome back everyone. Live here in San Francisco at Moscone West is the CUBE's exclusive coverage of Samsung Developer Conference. I'm John Furrier, the co-founder of Silicon Angle as well as the co-host of the CUBE. Our next guest is from PostMates, Prerak Trivedi, who is the senior Android developer at PostMates. So, mobile apps, got to have the food, you guys do the food delivery in any city; you're all over the place. How many cities are you guys in? >> I think it's more than 50 markets now. >> Really big time. Welcome to the CUBE. >> Thank you. >> So Android obviously, IOS versus Android, it's been the was since day one, I remember when Google had the first phone, had the first prototype. I saw this coming, and everyone saw it. Apple was owning it, Android has moved so fast. >> Prerak: Oh, definitely. >> What are the hot, cool things about Android right now that you're excited about, and that people should know about? >> Prerak: Oh yeah, sure. So Android, with the recent release, I think the all-year release, they have a lot of good technologies built in, especially if you see three years back, when the KitKat rolled out, it completely transformed Android, right? So today, if you'll see like ... In my opinion, it's surpassed Apple's IOS platform-- >> John: Why's that? What does it have? >> So, it has a lot of cool innovations, especially as an advanced phone user, if you want to multitask on your phone, right? So the split screen tabs, basically, so you can split your apps. So while writing an email, you want to reference the original content, something like that, or you want to listen to YouTube while navigating, right? So I don't know if you guys know, YouTube goes off if you put it in the background. With this new functionality, you can do both things at the same time, so that's why-- >> Yeah, well YouTube's got a lot of problems, certainly on Safari as well, I mean we've had big problems with that, so this is an interesting point. So how about multi-threading apps, I mean, what's some of the innovations, what is Android doing that you like, and what are the things that they need to do differently? 'Cause Samsung's going to give me more goodness with the bigger phone. So-- >> I mean, you have all the real estate in the bigger phones, and as you see, like earlier, three years back, it was like a 5 inch phone, now you have 6 to 6.5 inch phones, and then you have so much real estate, you can do so many things that are on it, like you have a good in-app gaming experience, like you know-- >> So what do you do on the app for PostMates? What are you responsible for? >> I work on the merchant facing Android applications. We provide them tablets, and they give them a platform for other management. >> They're the merchants. Those are the people who make the food. >> Exactly, the restaurants, basically. We partner with them, and we give them a platform to do order management. >> What do they care about that that might be different from the consumer, they care more about who the driver is, do they care about work flow? Is there any design considerations, you think, differently about the merchant versus, say, the end user, or is it the same? >> Oh, yeah, sure. So, when it goes to a merchant, we have to focus on their part, right, like, they don't care about the buyer, or the-- >> John: Or other restaurants. (laughs) >> I mean, basically, when they're preparing food, so we have to focus, and make them focus on the order, right, so we give them the tablet as a kiosk application, where they are focused on only one thing, doing the order management. Then once they are market ready to get it out of there too. >> And they want to make sure their menu >> Exactly. >> is in the right place, >> so there's not a lot of bad orders. 'Cause the worst thing that could happen is, I didn't order that. >> Exactly, yeah. We give them the platform for that as well, everything in one tablet, so yeah. >> Alright, so what's the coolest thing you're working on right now? >> Right now, the coolest thing I would say is providing ... Actually, I can't say much about that-- >> John: Come on, say it! >> (laughs) Yeah, nah. I mean, yeah, so one of the cool-- >> What's the coolest code you pushed? >> So, yeah...actually it's coming out... >> Notifications? >> Okay, so you... >> Notifications is all like... >> Come on! Share something! >> Maybe I can share at the end... >> Okay, share a best practice. >> A best practice? >> Yeah, best practice in the Android, for the Android developers watching. >> Android developers, yeah. If you want to build a scalable Android application, I would say, architecture is very important. Just follow Google IO's architecture components. Getting architecture, is very important because if you want to reuse your UI or if you want to build on top of your existing code it would be very helpful to give a good platform, build on a good platform. Then adding features to it would be extremely... >> John: Alright, so what's your take of this conference here? I mean this is kind of like an awesome conference. They're bringing that Apple Worldwide Developer conference to Samsung. It's their 4th year. It'd kind of clean. I like the messaging, clean in a way, not like being cleaned, like spotless clean, but clean messaging. I love the big screens. They're tying the smart TV. They've given developers what looks like a seamless fabric into the world. Now if I'm a developer, I'm going to raise my hand and say "Okay. I want real APIs that are documented. I don't want to have to go dig around in all the APIs." >> Prerak: Right, right, right. >> I mean, what's your take on Samsung? What are they doing good? What are they doing bad? >> I think I was really blown away with the whole connected SmartThings platform. They focused a lot on the connecting of people and I think feel like in the coming years, connected home, like home automation would be one very important aspect of everyone's life. Let's say if I'm traveling, I want to control my home from somewhere. I was excited about the whole connected home, the SmartThings platform. And with Bixby coming in as well, you know you can control home with your voice. Which excites me the most. >> It would be interesting too, I can see, almost putting my developer hat on... your business would be amazing if >> Prerak: Well yeah! >> the restaurants could learn about my orders. He's a repeat customer, that they send orders back, I'm gluten free, or whatever I do... >> Exactly. >> And that's kind of the AI you want. >> Yeah! >> You want Bixy to learn. >> Yep. >> Bixby to learn. >> Exactly. Learn from the past orders and... >> You guys working on that? >> Somewhat. Something like that. >> (laughs) Cagey! He won't give me any secrets. Okay! Bottom line: Android looking good right now? >> Very good right now, yeah. Android and Samsung doing good things. >> Alright, so what do you say to your IOS Apple friends? When you're arm wrestling over IOS and Android? >> I think IOS is also in very good shape. I mean, IOS gives a very good platform for everyone as well. Like basically it goes hand in hand. The competition is always... >> John: Global is key, right? Global has a big reach. >> Exactly. Global is key. Competition is good in terms of healthy innovation. So I feel like IOS does some innovation, Android does something else. >> Do you guys sit in the same lunch room, or different parts of the building than your IOS team? Do you guys co-mingle? >> We sit next to each other. >> You do? Do you throw stuff at each other? Is there peace? >> We always have healthy competition. Healthy jokes. >> That's always good. It's always fun. It's a religion. Apple versus Android. It's interesting. We look at all of our analytics and our web properties and it's source information. You can almost see the interests. More open source folks love Android. More global, more API-centric thinking, web services, micro services, docker containers, people who are thinking about kubernetes and cloud native. They love Android! Do you agree? >> Prerak: I agree, yeah. >> I won't say the lazy guys do IOS, but there's big money in Apple, too. Some nuances are there. >> Yep. Which one do you think is having better market share for you guys? >> I think IOS is better than Android, personally. In terms of I use both. But I think there is a lot more work Android has got to do. But what attracts me to Android, certainly Samsung and others, is that there are other platforms out there that need to be open and everything will be in API. >> Prerak: Exactly. >> Micro services trend in the cloud with kubernetes and containers, specifically kubernetes. The orchestration of work loads are going to be instrumental and that's going to win the game. So I think Android is tipped for the future to be open and better than Apple. Apple's closed. But Apple's the fine jewelry of the ave. It's for push button, get what I need. Less sophisticated user. >> Sure, makes sense. >> I guess I'm over-simplifying, over-generalizing. That's how I see it. I think, most people, that's the way that they see it. How about you? What do you think? Obviously, you're biased. You're Android. >> Nah! As I told you earlier, I'm all for innovation so as long as it's done by IOS or Android, we need to keep moving forward and that's... >> John: Alright, so message to your friends at home, other Android developers that didn't make this event, what are they missing? What should they know? >> Everyone should definitely check out SmartThings. I think that's the really cool thing because the whole ecosystem, like having your light bulb and those things controlled by you remotely. Definitely check out SmartThings. I'm excited about AR Core, Samsung and Google partnership as well. That could be one interesting thing coming out as well. >> John: AR kits out there too, what do you think about that? >> Oh yeah. >> Security. >> The AR kit? >> Yeah. >> I haven't really... >> It's got more security, stuff's more IOT based IR Core, AR Core certainly the other big key. Alright, Preket, thank you so much for coming on the CUBE. Android developer here shared his take on the CUBE. Talking a little smack with IOS, of course Samsung's got the bigger phone here. In the show here, love the Note 8. Going to give it a good run against my iPhone. It's the CUBE coverage here at Samsung Developer Conference. More after this short break. (music)

>> Narrator: From San Francisco, it's theCUBE covering Samsung Developer Conference 2017. Brought to you by Samsung. >> Welcome back everyone. Live here in San Francisco at Moscone West is the exclusive coverage from theCUBE SiliconANGLE Media of the SDC 2017. I'm John Furrier the co-founder of SiliconANGLE Media and the co-host of theCUBE. My next guest is Amy Jo Kim who is the CEO of Shufflebrain. It's the parent company of gamethinking.io, a variety of other projects, and expert in the convergence of design, gaming, computer science, and et cetera. Welcome to theCUBE. >> It's a pleasure to be here. >> Thanks for coming on. Obviously we've been seeing the trend, the convergence trend for a while certainly in the tech industry. Computer science and social science coming together, that was our motto when we started our company eight years ago. But really to me the flashpoint was Steve Jobs had the technology-liberal arts crossroads. That really kind of spawned the beginning of a creative generation start thinking about the devices, how it all intersects, and not the pure play handheld. So gamers here at Samsung Development Conference and developers bring game mechanics in. That's communities, gamification, games themselves, user interface. What's your reaction to all this? You've designed a great bunch of interfaces. >> I'm, I think it's fantastic. I think what we're seeing is really a flashpoint that has several trends converging. One of the trends we have is developers, the folks here, you know are right here at this wonderful conference, they've grown up with games. They're familiar with the lexicon of games, with how games work. And so it's very natural for them when they start to build their own apps and say what will make this engaging to turn to games and look for inspiration in games? So that's been going on for a while and it's accelerating. We're also seeing that mobile technology, mobile phones, have become so ubiquitous that most of the traffic coming in on many people's experiences 70%, I recently ran a promotion for Shufflebrain, 70% of our traffic was mobile total traffic. So the ubiquity of mobile phones means that everybody's got a potential gaming machine or a machine where they can have a light, fun, engaging experience right in their pocket. So as you noted, we've moved away from single purpose game consoles, handheld or otherwise they still exist, but more and more what we see is the best games and the best game like experiences that might not be games but they the feel and the pull of games. Those are showing up on mobile phones like Samsung. >> And the screens are awesome. I'll say my Note 8 here is awesome and bigger and better and the graphics. But it's a generational shift too. Like my son was, we're designing a new app and we're kind of sitting at the drawing board and he's like, "Dad, you're a search generation. "No one searches anymore. "You actually type on the keyboard, that's like so old." So he brings up a point which is illuminated here. Which is you see voice touch, voice activation. Harman's got now the kind of interface with this audio. You're seeing cars all over the air with software. This is really the computer science, computer engineering culture interfacing with art. Where new user experiences are coming that quite frankly don't look the same. >> Exactly that's such a good point. So what's happening is that a lot of the user experiences, the back end neural networks, the AI, the sophisticated bots that we've been seeing in gaming for the last five or six years are trickling into the mainstream. And that's what you always see. Gaming is the canary in a coal mine. What we see now happening in games and what we saw a few years ago is becoming more mainstream. So if we look now at what's happening in gaming, that gives us a clue to 18 to 24 months out for app developers. >> Yeah we brought this up on day one. You nailed it. It's an early indicator. >> That's right. >> What are you seeing in that area? Because you're in the vanguard of the user interface so you have a computer science background. You understand how communities work. Which by the way, you look at anything from blockchain ICOs to game communities, community is the most important aspect right now in the world. The community role of the people are so important. You don't have a network effect. You don't have input output into the quote neural aspect of the interface because now people are involved. Not just software and data bits. I need a notification from my friend if they're right around the corner from me. So it's the role of people. >> Exactly, so I'm a multiplayer game designer. The teams I work with, because it's always a team effort, are multiplayer games. Rock Band, Covet Fashion is a more recent one. And so we've known for a long time in the gaming industry that if you want to drive deep lasting engagement, you need to create a multiplayer experience and some sort of community around that. What you'll hear gamers say is "You know, I'm kind of tired of that game "but my friends need me. "It's where my friends are, my team needs me." So that's part of what drives long term engagement. >> John: The socialization piece. >> Exactly. What we're seeing now and the opportunity I think for developers even outside of gaming is we're seeing the intersection of gaming, a style of gaming that's sort of I would call them gaming systems versus game mechanics. We're seeing gaming systems find their way into social media. Musical.ly is a great example. And Discord is another example. Discord is a platform started by gamers but now it's merging into just other people. That's for communication. Sort of like a next generation Slack but mobile and for gamers. Covet Fashion, a game I worked on with a brilliant team who actually came up with the idea at CrowdStar, really merged a cooperative game mechanic like you might see in say Portal 2 or Left for Dead with social media and very lightweight voting systems of the users themselves playing a crucial role in what's good or not. Just like in Facebook or in Instagram, your feed is going to show you what gets liked a lot, what gets popular. And games are starting to incorporate this too so that the players themselves become almost like the game pieces and become a big part of what's entertaining. We see networks like Twitch with a huge rush of popularity. That is people delivering entertainment to each other. It's not scripted. So this user generated content, this systems which let people be entertaining to each other, is the huge push that's going on in gaming. And we have, part of what makes a game so exciting, is when the game makes interacting with other people lower friction or more magical but it's still the people that makes it exciting. >> Amy Jo this is amazing. I think that you're right on it. Because remember when I was a gamer, single player game on the computer, you got bored. I mastered it. Then comes multiplayer. But you're bringing up a new dynamic which is the dynamic nature of the people themselves. And I think Twitch had an interesting experiment where the comments, which we know on Twitch are pretty bad, drove the game experience. So now you have the people being part of the input to the game itself. I mean isn't Life a game in a way? >> Sure, you could look at Life the game. I think that that's a semantic issue. There are people that really enjoy looking at life as a game And if you define a game as a structured activity with roles and goals, sure you could look at it that way. What I think is most exciting is not so much what is and isn't a game but the bleeding over of gaming systems into places like digital health and education and enterprise and fashion, and those are, and genealogy. Right now I have a client who's merging a game like experience with a genealogy crowd source experience. So I think what I'd like to leave you with and to understand is the first wave of this we called gamification where people got very excited about the visible markers of progress that are in games like points and badges and leaderboards. And that's a great opening door, but that's not where the magic is. Where the magic is is in the underlying systems that drive you toward mastery of something you care about. And that's the explosion we're seeing now. So you say what am I seeing? I'm seeing clients come to me, a game designer, in all kinds, banking, call centers, SaaS products, change transformation in companies as well as all kinds of consumer products, saying we tried gamification. It just worked in the short term. We want what makes games interesting in the long term. First of all you said the most important thing which is other people. But it's not just other people. It's other people in a playful and mastery based environment that helps you get better at something you care about getting better at. >> So this great so take me through what game system. What I hear you saying is, okay, people think of gamification as a one trick pony, a shortcut to something. You're taking a much more wholistic approach saying the game system. What does that mean? What is a game system? Because you're, what I hear you saying, is that this is like a fabric. It's not like, or an operating system maybe. How should people think of a game... >> It's a methodology or a system. A good way to think about this, are you familiar with design thinking? >> Mm-hmm. >> Are you familiar with an agile approach or Agile Lean UX? Those are systems. Those are methodologies. Those are approaches to creating great products. And they help you. Game thinking is similar. It's got elements of design thinking, elements of Agile, but it adds game design. The difference between strong game design and gamification is game design is about bringing systems to life from the inside out. And so game thinking is as much about how you bring your product to life as it is about anything that you put into the product once it's brought to life. Which is where gamification usually comes in. So it's really about building a learning architecture into the core of your game using feedback loops and using simple systems. And one more thing. Every complex system starts as a simple system that works. So it's really about building core systems and then bringing them to life with the right approach and the right people. >> It's like having a kernel or a small building block. If you overthink it you could get in trouble. >> Right. But you also have to have the right building block so you build a strong foundation. >> Yeah I remember the old days when game engines came out. There was no market for game engines when the first games came out. Then someone said hey why don't we just take the game engine and become a game engine. That was an interesting dynamic that spawned a lot of innovation. Is there an analogy to that happening now where there's new innovations that people can build on top of? Is it open source? Is there an equivalent? I'm trying to figure out where that next level up is going to be because right now we've gone like this and then we see a new level with AR and these new kinds of games and you're bringing this kind of integrated system approach is coming. >> Right so I think there's two thing that have to happen for those to take off. One of which is technology based. You have to have engines. So Unity's rise has been tremendous for the gaming industry. Many many simple game-like experiences are being built in Unity, not from scratch. And other tools like that. And then ARKit from Apple is causing an explosion of really interesting work happening, making it easier to create and experiment with an experience like Pokemon Go. So those are the bottom-up tools based changes that are really accelerating innovation in our industry. Now at the time, none of that will work if you don't have the customer demand and the customer hunger. So the other thing that's happening is that customers are being trained by Pokemon Go and things like that that oh, this is how AR could work. We've seen that VR has kind of stalled out but again, that's a special purpose hardware that's not something easy that you can get on your mobile phone in between all the other things you do. So I think it can't be overstated how powerful it is to have these platforms combined with a huge consumer base on mobile, with phones in their pocket, ready to have a compelling game-like experience that doesn't necessarily have to be a game. The world is waiting for those. >> Yeah and your point about VR, you don't want a build it they will come mentality. You got to focus on the magic formula which is-- >> Customer demand. >> Call it sticky. But some could say look it's got to be a utility and that mastery component is critical whether it's learning, friendship, or some human dopamine effect right. >> Well that's exactly what we do at gamethinking.io. We help teams and companies create a product that customers love and come back to from the ground up using gaming techniques. So anyone who's interested, that's what we do. And the reason we help people do that is it's hard, and it's incredibly high leverage. >> Yeah and you got to have the expertise to do it. And it really is. It sounds like gamethinking.io, you're going to bring architecture. It's not just going to be jump on the grenade that someone throws a project at you. Sure, if it's a big project maybe. But you're kind of train the trainer it sounds like, you're teaching people to fish if you will. >> It's product development. Gamification is often a marketing campaign. We're talking about product development. If you want to build lasting engagement and you're a product leader, then you can use these techniques to build it from the ground up but it's not a silver bullet. >> Give a plug for what you do at Shufflebrain about your company and share some advice for folks watching that might be interested. Like I want to transform my Web 2.0, my 1.0 web responsive app, or my offshore built mobile app that I hired someone to just iOS it and Android it. I want to actually build from the ground up a new architecture that's going to be, have a lot of headroom, I really want to build it from the ground up with good design thinking, game system, game thinking, with the game systems, all the magic potentially in there. What do they do? I don't know do you call the, you know there's no Yellow Pages anymore. Do you Google search it? >> Thank you that was a great setup because that's, I mean I wish that I had had this years ago when I doing a venture funded startup. I needed help. So that's why I do what I do. So what we do is take 20 years of what works and what doesn't in game and product design and turn it into a step by step toolkit with templates, instruction, training, and coaching. And let me give you a specific tip. So there's, it's a whole system we use, but one of the things that you do and if anybody wants to try this it will amaze you if you're able to do it right, one of the things that the greatest game designers, the Will Wrights and folks at CrowdStar and Harmonics, what they do is when they're bringing a new game idea to life, first of all they find out aggressively as much about what's wrong with their ideas, what's right with it, through iterative, low fidelity testing early. Secondly they test it on their superfans that shortcut for high need, high value, early adopters. Not your target market but people that can get you to your target market. Knowing how to find and identify and then leverage your superfans for very early product testing and iteration, that's how you bring your core systems to life. Not with your ultimate target market. Most people don't know this. Knowing this, and then finding those people and leveraging them will turn what's often a failure into success. >> John: That's gold. >> It's complete gold. Let me just tell you why. Because if you're able to ask very product-focused questions, again with my guidance, of these people, you can build your product around what you know they want rather than guessing. >> And you can also help the person, might have blind spot, your customer, understand what superfans are saying. Sometimes it's like they're just giving you the answer right there early on. >> That's such a good point. And when you're inside of it- >> And I have bias. I'm an entrepreneur. Oh no I want to hear what I want to hear. I'm going to change the world. (laughs) Not really. >> That's why when I was an entrepreneur I knew all this stuff but I needed a coach when I was doing this. Because you can't see outside of your bubble and that's part of the value of doing this. >> Amy, the URL is? >> Gamethinking.io. >> Gamthinking.io. Amy Jo is a coach, she is an entrepreneur, venture backed, probably has some scar tissue from that but now she's kicking ass and taking names on gamethinking.io. Great mind. Thank you for sharing an amazing tutorial. You know that's free consulting here on theCUBE right here from and expert. >> It's what I love to do. Thank you for having me. >> Amy Jo here on theCUBE. Live in San Francisco at the Samsung Developer Conference, I'm John Furrier back with more here in theCUBE after this short break. (techno music)

>> Narrator: Live from San Fransisco, it's theCUBE covering Samsung Developer Conference 2017. Brought to you by Samsung. >> Okay welcome back everyone here live in San Fransisco at Moscone West, is theCUBE's exclusive coverage of Samsung Developer Conference #SDC2017. I'm John Furrier co-founder of SiliconANGLE media, co-host of theCUBE. My next guest is artist, director, and producer Rob Prior, at Robprior.com. Great to have you, thanks for spending time. >> It's good to be here. >> Alright. Great to have you. You're super impressive. I was amazed by the work behind me on the wide shot. Can we go to the wide shot? You can see the work you've done. You were just here behind us on the main Disruptor studio with Stan Lee who was Marvel Comics, legend in the industry. >> Legend. >> I mean absolutely legend. And he's here promoting, you know, the edge of the network with Samsung. Games and all that good stuff, part of the developer conference. >> Yeah. >> But you were up there painting with both hands in real time. And did this art. >> Yeah, it was less than an hour, I think this one was. I don't know I don't even keep track anymore. I'm just like... >> So you do both hands. So how did that come about? How did you get to the two hands? >> When I was about, alright, I was going to be an artist no matter what. My entire family line were artists, but none by profession. So, I was kind of not even given a choice. So I got to be about 10 years old and I thought the same thing that every 10 year old thinks, "what if I loose my right hand?". No 10 year old thinks that. So I switched at 10. I switched to, you know I was born a righty, I switched to be a lefty. I switched everything. I switched, you know, baseball, how I threw a balls, playing guitar. I switched everything over. So for two years, no mater how much any one begged me, to like, my grades were going down, cause no one could read my writing, cause I'm like... >> Cryptic. >> Yeah it was weird, and so at that point I made my left hand as good as my right hand. And I was published very young. I was published at 13, internationally at 15. And 13, when I got published, I had math homework due, and I had a painting, a cover due. And I'm like oh my god how am I going to do, I mean. >> Screw the homework, I'm going to do the painting. >> Yeah, so I picked up two brushes and I'm was oh yeah I can do this. Then I actually figured out that I could do my math homework and paint simultaneously. I shut my eyes apparently, when, I don't know when I do it, but when I paint, my eyes are shut a lot of the time. >> Wow, that's awesome. So great skills, so it gets it done faster, but it's also creative. Talk about your work, your artistry, cartoons. You started doing, what did you get into first? And how did your career evolve? Take us through the evolution of your career, because now in the tech scene, you're doing some awesome art, but we live in a digital world. >> Yeah. >> How's that? You're doing cartoons, covers. >> When I first started out, I was doing interiors. Like just pen and ink interiors. And then I started moving into color painted covers, and, you know, sort of gradually went from, you know from black and white work to full color work, to being, doing a lot of different magazine covers, book covers. You name it. I worked heavily with TSR, which is Dungeons and Dragons at the time. >> Yeah. >> And I just sort of moved forward and kept... >> And you got then you got to Hollywood started with movies. What movies did you work on? >> Oh my god, I've worked on a lot of low budget movies. I worked on TV series like Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Firefly, Angel. God, so many. I mean, like literally that whole era of TV shows. You know, movie wise I've done stuff with Fast and the Furious. Wow, it's amazing, when you get asked, when you have a giant body of work. When you ask that question all I see are ducks going across. >> Well you just came off stage, so you're really in painting mode now, and you just did this painting. >> Yeah. And how long did it take you do this one? >> I'm sorry? >> This art, how long did it take you to do this one? >> This was a little under an hour. I painted one earlier as well on the main stage during the keynote speech. And that one took me 45 minutes or something like that. >> So they're giving their talk, and you're painting away. >> Yep. >> And you've done this at concerts? >> Yeah >> Tell us what other venues have you done? >> Things like this. I've done it with concerts. People like Tech N9ne, Linkin Park, you know, Steve Aoki, Flo Rida, just to name a few. So I do it while they're performing. So I'll do a full, like, four foot by eight foot painting in about an hour and a half. But when I'm doing gallery work it takes me about a day, maximum two days a painting. >> Yeah. Well you're considerable talent. You mentioned before we came on camera, you're going to do the Linkin Park memorial at the Hollywood Bowl. >> I am, I'm going to be painting there on the 27th, at the Hollywood Bowl. You know, there's going to be a lot of people there, just, you know I think they said the tickets sold out in, like, 39 seconds, or, it was crazy. >> Yeah. >> But I'm fortunate to be able to do that. >> Yeah. >> And pay my respects as well, so. >> Well great work you're doing. I'm really inspired by that because one of the things we're passionate about at SiliconANGLE and theCUBE here is social science, arts, and technology coming together. That's clearly a trend that's happening. I start see the younger generation too coming into this world, and certainly, you have four kids, I have four kids too. We talked about that earlier, but, they're getting immersed in this digital culture and might miss out on some of the analog art. >> Absolutely. >> And what's your thoughts on that, because, this is like, you do both right. >> Yes. >> So you get your hands dirty, I see your hands are dirty. >> Yep they're filthy. >> Good job, you really roll up your sleeves, little pun intended. So, this is the key to success. Share your thoughts and vision for the younger generation and other artists out there, because art will be the front and center piece of technology inspiration, user interface, gaming, augmented reality. >> No, absolutely, you know what, here's the thing. And this is something that you and I were talking about just a little bit ago. I think the, we as humans have a choice. You know, especially kids nowadays they can go and they can be fully immersed, but then they miss all the other things, you know. I've seen kids at tables texting each other instead of talking. But I think if you take the analog era, the thing, like the live painting. Cause I use, I'll take a picture of this I'll pour it into the computer, ill clean it up, and I'll do that. I think mixing the two worlds is vital, you know, in advancing forwards as humans. I mean that's just my opinion, I try to teach my kids that as well. >> Yeah. >> You can't forget about the real world. >> Yeah. >> Because the real world's going to be here no matter what. >> Yeah. >> So, you know- >> And then game developers are out there right now working on a lot of ideas, inspiration, you've drawn monsters before. >> Absolutely >> Some of the characters here from Marvel with Stan Lee. There is, do you need the creative spark? >> Oh absolutely. And look there are, creative spark, anything can be a tool. You know, so, the computer, doing computer art is an amazing opportunity to explore a new kind of tool, right? To invent and create new creatures or new things. It's all on how you use it. And then you get the people, I said this on stage the other day, you get people who are taking photos and then pressing 27 filters and calling it art. I think you have to go backwards and, once again, be able to do the analog. Write your story, create your idea and take any tool that's available and make it happen. Whether it's to picking up a paintbrush, whether it's getting on a computer on a Wacom tablet. >> So you think that's practice from a young artist standpoint is get down and dirty, get analog. >> Absolutely. >> And that's your inspiration sandbox, if you will. >> Absolutely, you know, and I think, here's an example. It's hard to have a gallery show of all digital stuff. Beause then it's just prints of things that you've done. There's no brush strokes, there's nothing there. And a lot of art collectors want to see the stroke. They want to know it's one-of-a-kind, that's it. >> Yeah the prototype. >> Yeah >> Or whatever the inspiration was. It's inspiring. >> Absolutely. So I tell all artistes, and even to the best computer artists, I'm like, go analog, get your hands dirty, paint. And let that speak as well. >> I've been lucky at my age to see a bunch of waves of innovation in technology. It's super exciting. I'd love to get your thoughts, from your perspective, and the artistry community, and you've been in L.A., over the past 10 years, maybe even 20, but say 10 an easier number. 10 years ago the Iphone wasn't even out, right? >> Oh god. >> So actually, 10 years ago it was the Iphone, but let's say 11 years ago. There was no Iphone, there was, YouTube just hit the scene. So this whole digital culture has just shifted. >> Oh absolutely. >> Apple was a no name company in 2000, right? Micheal Dell once said, " They should give the stock back to stockholders". (laughter) So Steven Jobs proved them all wrong. What is the scene like in your world around the last 10 years? What's been the disruptive change? Where's the enablement? What's been bad? What's been good? What's your thoughts? >> You know, in the art world itself, it's something I just mentioned, what's disrupted the art world, is people coming in and literally just being, what I call, a button pusher artist. You know, they figure out a filter or a tan, or whatever, they make art on their phone, and they're like. And that disrupts a lot of things. Because then it shows, or can teach, kids or artists, or anybody. People our age, whatever, it doesn't matter. That it's okay to do that and skip all of the steps, and I think that's the biggest point is the technology has allowed people to think they can skip steps, but you can't. You can never skip the step- >> What's the consequences of those steps skipping. What's the consequence there? >> So, if that's what you are, and you've figured out filters, and you get hired to do a job, because maybe you're the greatest filter button pusher in the world. But then all of the sudden your computer goes out. What do you do? >> Call Apple Care. >> Yeah, there you go. >> Cheese bar appointment. >> I know, I konw You're screwed basically. >> You are. I mean, I knew way back in the 20 years ago, if you were versed in drawing cars, and you got a job doing storyboards for a commercial, and all of the sudden they said, "Hey we're changing everything. Now we're taking out all the cars and now it's real people". If you're not good at drawing real people, you lost your job. Same basic concept. >> Yeah. >> You have to take it all in, you know, in a giant ball. And for the people who are like, "I don't want to touch a computer". Man, that's- >> So it works both ways. >> Absolutely works both ways. >> So what you're saying, if I get this right, is the computer's a great enable and accelerant of a finished product. >> Rob: Absolutely. >> So you use it, you'll take this print you did behind us, you'll touch it up, and you'll turn it into posters, you'll sell it, you'll syndicate it. >> Yep. >> Etcetera, etcetera, but you did the work here in an hour. With both hands. You did it just on the fly, total creative, creativity. >> Yeah, I mean, today's world, I think, if we let things go too much then the computer takes over and we loose a part of ourselves. >> And what about your social friends. Like musicians, you know? >> Oh my god. >> So what's the musician vibe, same thing? I mean tools are out there now, my son's doing some stuff on Ableton live, he loves that software suite, but he's still laying some guitar licks down. >> Absolutely, and you know, the great thing about in the music scene, I heard this a lot when Pro Tools first came out. Everybody was like, "That's the death of the producer". No, that was the beginning of a different kind of producer. And if you can do things at home and you're good, then it's great. >> What's the culture like in L.A. right now in terms of the creative producer, creator? Cause you've got like a maker culture on the geek side. Robotics, maker culture put stuff together, build some new things. Now you got a creator culture which builds off the maker culture, then you got the builder culture all kind of coming together. What's the success formula in your mind, besides the managing the tools. What's the mindset of the new producer, the new director, the new artist? What do you see as success points? >> These are some of the best questions I've ever been asked. Like, literally in every interview I'm answering the same ones. No, this is great. I think, I think it's a little bit of the wild west out in L.A., you know, and all over. Because, you're forming amalgamations. The director of a movie is no longer, possibly, just a director. He's also working on some of the cinematography. Maybe he's an editor, you know, it's a jack of all trades thing. And I think a lot of the people that had one trade going in, and were really good at it, are finding that they're getting passed up sometimes by the person who can do four or five different things including being able to be versed at technology >> Yeah we're seeing a lot of the things happen in the computer industry, just to share on my side of the table. Data scientist is the hottest job on the planet. Doing data. Some of the best data scientists are anthropologists. >> Really? >> Like weird majors in college. But they have a unique view of the data. They're not parochial in their thinking. They're looking at it differently. Or they have a math background, and obviously math is pretty important in data science, but also, it's not just prototypical, you got to be this spec. It's a little bit of a different artsy kind of a feel, cause you got to be, look at things differently. You got to be able to rotate around 360. >> And that's exactly it. That you've got to have, you got to be thinking outside of the box at all times nowadays. >> Well Rob what's next for you? What' going on? You got a lot of things going on. >> Rob: Oh wow. >> You got a lot of business ventures, you make a lot of money on your prints, you're famous. You're exploring new territory. What are some of the boundaries you're pushing right now creatively, that's really getting you excited? >> Well, I'm going to be directing a movie coming up. Which I find great because it allows me to take every bit of all the things I know and put it into a package, that's fun. I've got several gallery shows coming up. I've got a gallery show that I'll be doing with Stan, which will be New York and L.A. And, just getting on stage with more and more bands. You know, I think- >> You're a cult of personality, what's it like working with Stan? He's a cult of personality. >> Oh my god, Stan is, Stan's great. >> People yelling stuff at him, "hey what do you think about that". I mean there's a lot of culture in the Marvel Comics world. >> Oh man he, you know, and look he's like what, 95. And he's got more energy than I do. Literally last night, we're all out to dinner and I left before everybody else did. Stan outlast me. A 95 year old guy, and I'm like, "I'm too tired, I got to go to bed". And Stan's still going, you know. >> The energizer bunny. >> He's an animal. >> Well great for coming on. Thanks for the inspiration. Great art, got amazing art right here >> Thank you so much for having me man. >> Great job, congratulations. >> Thank you >> Good to see the arts. Analog and the digital worlds connecting. This is the key to success in the technology business. Bringing an artisan mindset to great technology for vital benefits. That's what theCUBE believes, we believe it. And so does Mr. Prior here. Check out the art, robertprior.com. Check it out. Robprior.com. It's theCUBE live from San Francisco. More after this short break. >> Thanks for having me.

>> From San Francisco, it's theCUBE. Covering Samsung Developer Conference 2017. Brought to you by Samsung. (electronic music) >> Welcome back everyone. Here live in San Francisco, Mascone West. This is theCUBE's exclusive coverage live video here at Samsung Developer Conference, #SDC2017. I'm John Furrier, the co-founder of SiliconANGLE Media and co-host of theCUBE. My next guest is Dean Takahashi, who is the lead writer for GamesBeat for VentureBeat big blog covering business and innovation technology. Obviously, been a journalist and writer covering mobile and mobile gaming for a long time. Legend in the Silicon Valley community. Dean, great to see you. >> Yeah, thank you. Thank you for the kind intro. >> People who follow you know, you've been out there in the front line looking at the evolution of gaming obviously, from gaming and then obviously mobile gaming hit a thing. Then gen 2, gen 3. I don't know what generation we're on, but certainly Samsung is converging. That's their message here. Trying to keep these smart things, the cloud message a little bit of an IOT. Feels like an enterprise show a little bit. But, at the end of the day, it's the consumer connection. >> It's all coming together now >> It's all coming together. What's your rapport? What are you seeing? What are you reporting on? >> Well, I cover everything from the smallest startups, including the small game companies. I try to pay attention to Silicon Valley in general. And then the big companies as well. So, the relationships pertain to developers, who are on the small side to the platform owners on the big side. And, I see a really big war going on among all the platform owners. They're trying to get the hearts and minds of those developers. They're trying to bring in, trying to do what Samsung is doing. Which is integrate a lot of different things onto their platform. And, we'll see how much sort of openness is sort of left at the end of this. Or how much of a commons there is across the whole tech landscape, or the whole game industry. And I don't know who's going to win, who's going to own it all. But, everybody's trying. >> It's a war. Platform wars immediately. The device here, my new Samsung 8 is nice. It's got a big screen. It's gameable. Mobile gaming obviously hot. But again, the platform wars are interesting. Now they have the living room, they've got the kitchen, the smart family hub. All this stuff they're talking about. They had the smart TV for a while. The question that I have is, developers don't want hassles. They want the distribution and all the goodness of the big vendor, but one of the things Samsung seems to be trying to create is this unified fabric of breaking down the stovepipes within their company. Problem is, developers won't tolerate different API documentation. This is an issue we've heard from developers here in theCUBE is how does Samsung do that? Because that'll really be, that's the kryptonite for developers. That'll keep the super developers away. >> Yeah. Like the announcement they had here about the Internet of Things and trying to sort of integrate three different standards down into one is the kind of move that you have to make or you have to seek. Some of these come in through acquisitions but, yeah. The developers don't want to mess around with the multiple APIs. >> It's interesting. We cover, as you know, we cover a lot of the enterprise and the emerging tech with SiliconANGLE and theCUBE, and we see the enterprise is clear, right? DevOps, the cloud native, the Linux foundation. Those worlds are exploding. Open source is exploding. And then you got companies like Intel, which cares about field programmable gate arrays and 5G. Enabling that end to end. And then you've got the consumer companies whether it's Ali Baba or Samsung or a Google or an Apple, really caring about the device side. So, everything is kind of coming into the middle where cloud is the engine, right. So, the interesting thing I'd love to get your perspective on, Are developers sensitive to the fact that they can have more compu because augmented reality, even virtual reality. We've had one VIP influencer here on theCUBE say VR is done. 1.0 is done. But we learn from it. It didn't really hunt. It didn't really go off the shelves. But augmented reality is hotter, because it's more realistic. Drones are using augmented industrial IOT. >> Augmented reality has a nice launch pad, right. It's got a long runway off of smartphones. You create your app for smartphones and eventually it's going to run on all these other new things that come out, like the glasses. Once those are established, that's great. But in the meantime, the apps and developers can sort of make this living on the smartphone. >> So it's not a big bad like a Google Glass where it just kind of crashes and burns >> Yeah. >> Kind of thing. So they can get some beach head with mobile. >> Yeah. >> So the question for you is how vet the signal from noise on companies. Obviously you look for the ones that have more of a pragmatic business model. Get in on mobile gaming. Obviously Google is on stage with Android. So you're starting to see more openness with APIs. Differentiating from Apple, ecosystem, which it is what it is. How do you see companies differentiating and being real? >> Signal from noise, you do look at everything from who their alliances are with, to how many people, do they have enough people to get the job done? Do they have the funding? It's sort of figuring out whether the team has experience at what they're doing. So, a lot of the basics of journalism. Just finding out facts about a company. >> So, Magic Leap. Have you dug into those guys? I saw the funding news yesterday. Another $500 Million. >> Yeah. >> I haven't seen the product. I haven't seen the demo. I'm not covering gaming like you are. But you have seen their demo. Have you? >> I haven't seen their demo. >> I think a half, a half a million dollars more. That's a war chest. >> Yeah. They're out in Florida. So they're a bit far from me. They are very lucky to have convinced someone to give them some additional money. When they've burned through a billion dollars plus already so, $1.4 billion >> Insane. And nothing to show for it. >> $500 million more, yeah. And they're very ambitious and that's good but, >> It better be good. >> They almost seem like they were trying to say we're going to accelerate and beat Moore's Law. We're going to do something impossible, put these things into little glasses and it's going to be amazing. It's going to be like, so you can't distinguish augmented reality from reality, right? And surprise, surprise, you can't really rush Moore's Law. >> And by the way that's, I'm surprised they're not in Silicon Valley because it seems like that's a go big or go home strategy. Certainly, a billion dollars they've burned through, another half a billion. No one can do that. It's hard to do. So, back down to the more pragmatic ecosystem, you're seeing Samsung here. I like their approach. I think that it's a good strategy. They didn't overplay their hand at the show on talking about where the data resides. That was one thing I'm still not seeing but maybe they're going to bring that out later. Maybe it's not ready yet. The cloud, I didn't really see the cloud story there as much. I don't know what that means. So, those are open discussion points for me. But, certainly leveraging the device, leveraging the distribution is what they're offering. But then they made a comment here on theCUBE, "We're open." What does that mean? I mean Android's obviously got a benefit of being open. But what does open mean to you and how do you see that? >> I think that, you could argue that for smart things where it's connecting to something like an Invidia Shield. And you can use the remote control on an Invidia Shield to change your lighting, or something like that. So, it's sort of overlapping circles of certain, you know, I don't know if that's open. But it works. If you deliver something that works, your consumers, you know, it's relatively open. >> Yeah. And the glam is obviously electronics. Consumer electronics base. You've got a little bit of the IOT. I find this fascinating story of the IOT because people are things too. I mean, you're walking around with the phones. We have the fashion tech happening. And obviously gaming. Alright, what's the big surprise for you here at the show. Give me some positive review. What you liked about it, and what critical analysis, where they need to improve. What are some of your thoughts? >> I think there is always sort of that challenge for a big company like this that has a worldwide consumer base. How much do they want to cater to or appeal to the hardcore crowd? So, say like gaming and non-gamers is a good example of that. And they're not really trying to get everybody in gaming onto their platform or onto their side. They're saying that they're welcome. They can come. We've built this as an all-purpose sort of platform. And, they're not going out to invest in a lot of the game companies. They didn't put money into Magic Leap. They're not sort of trying to pull people in and >> They're not giving the hard sell. >> Yeah. The challenge then is that other companies are. Microsoft, Sony, and Nintendo of course are doing it. But Amazon, Google, even Apple to some degree is embracing a lot of gamers on the game platforms. Making their platforms fairly friendly. So, I think Samsung needs to decide whether it's going to step up in that space. Other territories, yeah. It's on a very good march, I think. To continuously come out with new tech that gets widely adopted. They're doing well in VR. But I think, it almost seems like they've embraced 360 video a lot more than they have on the game side. >> We'd certainly love to get those 360 cameras here. Apple versus Samsung. Obviously, World Wide Developer Conference is legendary. Samsung 4th year now doing this event. Compare, close, getting there, leveling up? >> Well, I think Apple's event was underwhelming in a lot of ways as far as just what they announced. And say even the performance of the phones. It doesn't really, it's kind of flatish compared to the performance of Samsung phones. I think Samsung has maybe a broader following and broader base. And they have the potential to draw >> And Android's global appeal >> draw more >> is pretty interesting. >> Yeah, draw more developers over who might find it easier. >> Interesting to see the psychographic profile of developer makeup from Apple and Samsung. Dean, thanks for coming on theCUBE. Really appreciate it. Dean Takahashi here inside theCUBE. Lead writer for GamesBeat, part of VentureBeat blog in Silicon Valley. Check them out, VentureBeat.com. Of course you've got siliconangle.com and thecube.net. That's our content there. This is theCUBE live coverage from Samsung Developer Conference. I'm John Furrier, right back with more after the short break. >> And also plug our GamesBeat conference. >> GamesBeat conference. >> GamesBeat Summit in April. April 9th and 10th in Berkeley. >> Yep, get the plug in. GamesBeat Conference in April. Check it out. Dean co-chairs the committee for getting the great content. Hardcore gamers, thought leaders. Check out GamesBeat Summit in April. Of course, this is theCUBE live coverage here in San Francisco. More after this short break. (electronic music)

>> Announcer: From San Francisco, it's theCube. Covering Samsung Developer Conference 2017. Brought to you by Samsung. >> Hey, welcome back everyone, this is theCube's exclusive live coverage of Samsung Development Conference, SDC 2017. I'm John Furrier, the founder, co-founder of SiliconANGLE Media, co-host of theCube. My next guest is Kevin Hague, Vice President of Technology Strategy at Harman, now part of Samsung. His twitter handle is JSGuy. Welcome to theCube. >> Thank you, thank you having me. >> So HARMAN has a lot of cool things. Obviously, you're known for music, audio, in-car stuff, headphones, really the premier audio tech. >> Kevin: Yes, yeah. >> So give us the update. Part of Samsung. When did that happen? What have you guys done? Have you integrated in to the edge of the network? Is entertainment. >> It is these days. And it seems like more and more people are becoming interested in audio. Audio's becoming, you know, a big part of everybody's lives. Everybody will have headphones at work, connected devices at home, with AIs and voice assistance in their car. You know, we're huge in the car. A huge percentage of our automotive business is in audio, and infotainment, IVI systems, and we're really excited to be here at the Samsung Developer Conference, because this is our first conference, kind of together, and we're excited to show off a lot of cool developer tech. >> So we're huge on internet of things. I've been saying this for years, but now it's so clear to the developer community that internet of things includes people. Wearables, we had guests on doing dresses that are part of the internet, and technology with robotic arms and software. But headphones, you guys have a cool program called Hack Your Headphones. Which, tell a little about that, and then we'll talk about this new product that's here on the desk, I can't wait to get to, but >> Yeah, we have a couple of new products >> Hack your headphones, I mean, you got to get developers excited, because augmented reality and virtual reality, no one wants to put those damn goggles on. And it's got no audio. >> That's right. Yeah, so we're trying to fix that with this particular product, which is the JBL Everest Elite headphones. And it's probably one of the first consumer hackable headphones. We have an API, out for Android, that allows the developer to control many of the features and functions of this headphone. And we've added a lot of extra features, so this thing not only, when you put it on, and you're wearing virtual VR goggles, you're immersed, right? And you don't even know what's going on in the outside world. Well, we've come up with some tech that allows some of the outside world to come in programmatically. So within a game, or a VR game, or a VR application, you can do something where the outside noise can be added in to the gameplay. So let's say if you're playing Fruit Ninja, or something really crazy on your VR goggles, and you're about to hit somebody, it could warn you through audio signals. So we're really excited about these headphones, lots of other features that developers would like. >> So let's talk about the API, because this is a really cool feature, and I want to get to that again, the new thing, new device that's coming out of this new, breaking news here on theCube, which is, these headphones, is about, you guys have the normal coolness around, noise canceling, all that stuff, but you guys have tech that actually lets developers play with the settings. >> Kevin: That's right. >> So you actually reverse the settings. Right? Like, imagining, like, okay, what if I want to increase the noise out that comes in. Is that the concept? >> That's right. And so we can adjust, the developers can adjust, almost an infinite levels, the noise ratio from outside to inside. So if you want it perfectly quiet, you can set that. If you want it where a lot of outside noise is coming in, you can adjust that as well, without having to do this to talk to somebody. >> It's almost tap your phone, tap your app, or have some notifications sensing, so you're looking for creativity from the developer community. >> That's the objective. >> We are. And we don't actually know what developers are going to do. I always have a saying, that says, If I put ten of my smartest guys in a room for a week, they're going to come up with a 100 ideas. If I throw this out to the developer community, they're going to come up with a 1,000 ideas, and I think that's what we're looking for, is that kind of creative spark, and we're just going to give them platform to do that on. >> And that's super smart, because now you can let the creative development community tinker around, and kick the tires. You guys get the free access to the creative, but also you have APIs that make it kind of stable. >> That's right. And that's that something that we support. We love developers to play with. >> Alright, so now you have a new product. So this is the exclusive Cube coverage. So let's see this new product. >> Actually, we just sent boxes right before coming on set. >> Here, let me introduce this thing. So this is looks like a collar. Goes around your neck. So, first of all, what's the product name? >> So this is a JBL Sound Gear, and it's going to be available starting next month. So this is, as far as I know, the first one in the United States. I can't say that for sure, but that's the first one I've seen in the United States. >> So it looks like one of those old football collars, but you put it around like this, and it allows for music to come up only to my ears, right? Actually, let's turn on the music, and then they'll actually get to hear through my little headset here. >> Kevin: Yeah, we'll just throw something on. There's a little, it's kind of cranked up, actually. >> Okay, so this is cranked up. Can you hear this? >> Kevin: Just a little bit. >> So he can barely hear this. I'm, like, talking loud. >> Kevin: Yeah, yeah, that's right, because it's pretty loud to you. >> So I could be a gamer, I could be doing virtual reality with a headset. This is kind of like my ear experience, without and freeing my arms up. >> Yeah, that's right. And the nice thing is, we're looking in the future, and seeing augmented reality-type experiences are going to be important. But with augmented reality, you want that kind of pass through. So I want to be able to talk to you while you have your glasses on, or whatever the future brings us. >> So I can get a little notification, bing, you got this car coming, or about to get attacked by my app. >> Yeah, imagine walking down the street. Now you can listen to your music while walking down the street, and not worry about getting hit by a car or something. >> Or pissing people off. Hey, turn your headphones on! Or having some ambient noise coming in so I'm aware. >> Kevin: Yeah, that's right. >> Yeah, that's cool. >> And so that's a really exciting product. >> They're not that flexible. >> Yeah, it's a little bit. So I think a lot of people put it on from the side and twist it around, but it's actually a pretty solid product, and we're, you know, it's a transformative product. There's nobody else shipping anything like this that I know of. >> So it has a little bit of wiggle, but it's not, you could break it if you snap it, like a chicken bone. >> Kevin: Yeah, don't do that. As far as I know it's the only one in the United States. >> You can just throw it too, it's like horseshoes. Just toss it. >> We have other uses. Yes, we made it multiuse. >> Don't toss it. It's not horseshoes. That's awesome. And you've also got a little pow here, but also now, the problem with some of these devices is on, watching TV, or interfacing with a large screen, there's latency issues and if people are talking, and you're hearing it separately. A lot of internet streamings we see that. It's not like direct connected. >> Kevin: Yes. >> Talk about that. How does that address that? Does it have a feature where you could create a low latency connection to something that's either on the internet or TV? >> Sure, so there's a couple of different ways, so like audio latency's very important, especially if you're watching TV, and lip sync, it's always weird if you get that delay, and so, that's why we actually pair with this in the box comes a low latency transmitter. So it's plug and play, plug it into your TV, turn on this, it pairs up. Now you can watch TV seamlessly in the house without disturbing like everybody. >> I can watch my football games, make some dinner, lunch, whatever. >> Or even late night TV, somebody's asleep in the same room as you, and it won't disturb them, right? >> My wife, Linda, Linda, if you're watching, this is perfect, save our marriage. Turn the TV off! Maybe not that. But it'll be a first step, but this is exactly the use of these. Create a personal space, and the technology as it shoots up from the sides. >> Yeah, there's two speakers on each side. >> And it shoots up to the ear, so it comes up this way. >> That's right. And we do a lot of work to make sure that the beam of sound stays in the vertical space, so that a lot of people can't hear it from outside maybe three feet. Literally, when you first put it on, I couldn't even tell it was working, and I was going, can you hear it? And you're like, oh, it's loud! And so. >> And the folks listening heard it to, 'cause my microphone was right there. >> That's right, yes, and that's the side effect, is in this area here, you have full. >> Okay so this product >> Full awareness. >> will be shipped and it's called the >> AVL Sound Gear. >> Sound Gear, it's available next month. >> Next month. >> In Best Buy retail. >> Best Buy retail. MSRP I think is going to be 249. >> Which includes some accessories, right? >> It includes a couple of accessories, like the streaming unit and everything. >> Yeah, that's awesome. So it's not going to break the bank. >> I don't think so. >> Good. Well, so that's a good price point, I'm definitely going to buy one. >> It's definitely different. It's not like just a regular pair of headphones. This is also available in the stores today, the 750. >> And how about this being developer enabled? API's for this, too, or not yet? >> Not yet, but stay tuned. >> This is the total Star Trek device. >> Kevin: It is. >> If you're a Star Trek classic fan like me, you know the thrall collars. (laughter) >> Kevin: That's awesome. >> And certainly, I can use this. It's got voice in there just so I can talk to it, like on conference calls? >> That's right. You can do a conference call with it, or. >> Have intercommunications on gameplay, multiplayer? >> That's right. >> So yeah, I think gamers are going to love this. >> I think so, too. >> Yeah, my son plays Call of Duty and Destiny. >> It's very comfortable to wear. I think that's one of the key things, is once you get it on, it feels like, when I've tried some of our early prototypes of it, I forgot that I was even wearing it. >> I can listen to theCube music while talking to the guests. >> Kevin: I know, we need to get you one of these. I mean, we'll get you one soon so you can try it. >> Promotional considerations by Samsung. >> Kevin: That's right. >> Kevin, thanks for coming on, great tunes, old school classics. Yeah, crank it up a little bit more, we'll end on some music. Kevin Hague, Vice President of Technology at Harmon, (upbeat music) Samsung. Bringing all the developer action to you here, theCube. >> Kevin: Thanks for having me. >> Alright. More after this short break. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: From San Francisco, it's the Cube, covering Samsung Developer Conference 2017, brought to you by Samsung. (electronic music) >> Hello, everyone, welcome back, live here in San Franscisco, Moscone West. This is the Cube's exclusive coverage of Samsung's Developer Conference. I'm John Furrier, the co-founder of SiliconANGLE Media, cohost here in the Cube. My next guest is Paris Rain, recording artist, innovator, working with Stan Lee, music projects. What's exciting about this event is that you have such exciting new lifestyle trends happening and this one here's a great story. Welcome to the Cube. >> Thank you very much. It's nice being here with everybody. >> You look fabulous, you're a superhero. Tell us the story, because one of the things that's super compelling about your projects you're working on, and your innovation, is the convergence of culture. You've got Comic Con kind of culture integrated with music, online services, digital communities, and now new products are being developed, new experiences, AR, VR, the new vibe is out there. Tell your story. >> Well, we just thought, why not? So what happened was, my manager had a really close relationship to Stan and he basically showed Stan my music and said, "Hey, this girl's talented," and then we got to talking and we were like, "Why don't we integrate Stan into the music business?" He took over the movie industry, why doesn't he take over the music industry as well? >> And so Marvel obviously absolutely hits a home run, the comics, but this is now also a digital life, and so people look at all the successes, certainly the movies. >> Absolutely, yeah, that would be the biggest. >> I was a comic kid when I was growing up. But the movies have just been spectacular. One sequel after the other. Gaming now is part of the movie scene, so gaming culture is huge, and you're doing a game with Samsung, that's something you've got going on, what's that about? >> I can't say too much about it, to be honest with you, but we're in preparation with Samsung on this new, innovative, high tech, app that's coming out, and it's going to be integrated to, I mean, everything's going to come together, it's going to have my music in it, it's going to have, Stan's going to make a cameo, in that, in the game, and in my music video as well, and yeah it's all coming together. >> So that's coming out. You can't really talk, it's under wraps, but it's an integrated project. You've been successfully into viral videos, a couple years ago that went viral on YouTube. What's that like, do you just like wake up one day and say, "Oh my God, this is going crazy?" >> It kind of happened like that with YouTube. Because you do it all yourself. I worked with Afflux Studios, it's in Wellington. They're a really awesome studio, super high tech and I got kind of an in, they're kind of family to me, and so it was kind of ... It was really easy to get with them anyway so we were like, "Hey, I did the blue hair thing." And I was like, "You know what? "I'm set on going viral, this is what I want to do." And the first video I put out, bitch better have-- B better have my money. (John laughs) By Rihanna. >> We're the internet. You can say whatever you want. >> Oh, fuck it. Bitch better have my money. Oh shit, really, I can swear? Oh I feel so much more comfortable now. On stage, I felt so ... So yeah, "Bitch Better Have My Money" came out and it got like 1.5 million, or 1.3 million views, and then I did another video and it got another 1.3 million. >> All right, so what happens after, because everyone wants to know. 'Cause everyone tries to engineer viral, and you can't really engineer viral, 'cause viral is one of those things where-- >> Dye your hair blue, sell your soul. >> (laughs) Okay, you sold your soul. Who bought it? The Devil? (laughs) >> The Devil, yeah, the Devil bought it. No. >> Well, you got to tell. >> No, for real, like honest talk right now. What you have to do is go on the top charts and pick one of your favorites, something that is completely not you, or you, but you have to do it a different way, so what we did, was I work with a producer who's super awesome, his name's Arcaeus, and we remixed it. And you know how remixes are huge? So we were like, "Why don't we do a remix cover?" and then it blew up and that's what happened. >> So now that you're on Stan's radar, he's got the whole, you know, he's been around the block, he's a legend in the community. His success is off the charts. What's his creative mind like right now? How are you guys looking at the mark offs? You're integrating music with comics. >> With comics and with gaming, that's, I mean, you just nailed it. >> So what's the creative scene like, do you guys sit back, do you kick back? What do you talk about? >> Stan's really big on making the powers unique, and he always has been really great on making sure that the powers are unique, so that's right now, we're still in the preparation stage of everything, but we're, we want to, we're prepping with Marvel right now. I have to say all the right words in order to not get in trouble. >> PR handled. (they laugh) >> We're prepping with Marvel to go into one of their storylines that I can't say. I can't say too much. >> Yeah. All these licensing things are going on. I've always been fascinated with how it's about time that the comics and Marvel really start expanding and start franchising the gaming because we were talking yesterday with one of the guests influencers about how the gaming culture really is a precursor to how life is evolving. You got multiplayer, it is virtual, you got virtual currencies, you have things happen on gaming, so it's a natural extension to move into gaming. How does the music piece, I mean, do you guys have licensing stuff? You must have to get authorizations. Is it indie, what's ... >> Well, it would be my music that's on the game. >> So you're doing your own music for the game. >> So I'd just be paying myself, essentially. >> You're licensing your movie? >> Yeah. >> All right. So here's another question for you. What's the weirdest thing that's happened to you in the past year? >> This interview right here. No, I'm just joking. >> (laughs) It's great for me too. >> No, it's Stan calling me up and saying, "Hey, I want to make you a superhero." That's the weirdest thing I've ever gone through. >> What's it like in the L.A. scene for you? >> I don't go to L.A. too much. I don't, but I am moving out there next month, so I will be in the L.A. scene. The L.A. scene's crazy, from what I've seen, from what I've seen about the scene. Yeah, it's crazy. >> So what's the plans for you and Stan the next couple months? What are you guys going to be working on, heading down, doing the tour, creative-- >> I think we're going to a couple Comic Cons. Potentially getting inducted into the music industry by a big player in the hiphop culture who, I can't say his name. There's a lot of big things, but it's mainly just preparation right now, we're just talking about everything, what we all want to do, and making sure that the gaming app with Samsung, which is why we're here today, it's like that's a huge thing, Jackie, Jacqueline Chow whose mobile game, it's a mobile game, so the game, the music, and hopefully eventually movies, but and the comic books, oh! You know what I think is really cool? I think that we're going to do a comic book on like a tablet version or a mobile version of the comic books, and I don't know if you've seen, I forget what it's called, but it's like a tilt screen comic book that's really, it's really innovative? I'll have to show you the app after, but it's, I think we're going to do something like that, 'cause people don't buy comic books, people don't buy books, they don't go to the store, they don't go to the library, I mean, I do, but they don't, you know? They go on their phone and they pay for it. >> Phone is where the action is, for the kids. All right, so what's exciting you these days? Obviously, you must be pretty pumped. Things are rocking. >> Yeah. >> What's on your mind these days? >> What's on my mind these days? >> Yeah, what are you excited about? >> Sitting beside Stan and just talking about this stuff. Honestly, performing, I'm super excited about the show, 'cause I want the show to be, I mean, if I'm a superhero, it's got to be heroic. >> Can you share your superpowers? What's the ... >> I can't! I can't, but I am a singer so I think obviously we're going to roll with the singing 'cause I think, I mean, naturally singing, performing, I think is almost like a human superpower that we have. >> So what's the event? Give us your take on the event here. Obviously Samsung is a big part, and congratulations, nice gig to have there. Congratulations, so you've got the app coming on, we'll dig into that, we'll look forward to the news when it comes out. But the vibe here, this developer community. We see high school kids here, I saw some eight year olds here. I mean, this is like an awesome developer conference. >> It is! When I was on stage with Stan, it was like, we had five minutes left, and I was kind of, you know, we had gone through all of the questions that we'd prepared, and I was like, "Hey, guys, if anyone "has any questions, please raise your hand," or whatever, and just kids, it was all, it was like mostly kids at first and then the adults are like, oh well we can do too, but the kids were like, "Stan, what do you think about DC?" and he was like, "DC who?" It was hilarious. >> So next year, "Rain, what do you think about ..." So you're going to be popular, congratulations. Thank you for coming on and chatting with me. This was great, with Rain Paris, here at the Cube live, from San Francisco for SDC, you got games coming out, music converging with comics, this is the culture. More after this short break. (electronic music)

>> Narrator: From San Francisco, it's theCUBE. Covering Samsung Developer Conference 2017. Brought to you by Samsung. (cheerful music) >> Welcome back everyone, live here from San Fransisco, Moscone West, at the Samsung Developer Conference, 2017 #SDC2017. I'm John Furrier, cohost of theCUBE, co-founder of Silicon Angle Media. My next guest, Hilary Karls, Senior Software Engineer at Uber. Great to have you on, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you for having me. >> Great to have a female engineer for Uber, pun intended. In all seriousness, thanks for coming out, appreciate it. >> Oh, my pleasure. >> Love talking tech here; Samsung obviously is huge with Android, that's what you do. What do you do with Uber? Let's get that out on the table. What's your role at Uber as an engineer? >> I'm an Android engineer, I work on UberEATS, which is our food delivery product. I've been at Uber for about three years now. So I've gotten to see UberEATS grow from just a tiny operations experiment, in LA, all the way up to being in over 120 cities and having its own app. >> Uber's got that great culture; trying new things. Love the iteration and our family uses the competitor, DoorDash, and I can't wait for UberEATS to come to Palo Alto. Is it in Palo Alto yet? >> Yeah, it is. >> I better try it out. Bring me a discount, can you send me a little discount code? >> Yeah, I can definitely send you a discount code. >> Okay good, got that out of the way. Got my free phone here from Samsung, as well. Thank you Samsung for the free phone. So let's talk about Samsung, obviously this is a developer's conference, you're on the front line, building the app on the Android side. >> Yeah >> Google was on stage yesterday so there it is, it's all out there, Samsung innovating with the handset. Great reviews on the new 8, great screen. This is an Apple-esque going on here. They're there, they got an iOT strategy, so they're bringing together lifestyle. >> Yeah. >> Okay, this is the new user experience. Okay, so has Android gone up? They got Bixby. >> They got Bixby, yeah. >> What's your experience with Android and developing in the environment? >> Well I've been developing on Android for about four or five years now, and it's wonderful. It's open, it enables you to actually go and build. Using more of the APIs and having more ability to connect into the phone itself. To be honest, I love it. It's one of those where you actually get to take your ideas and ship it out to a much broader range of people. >> Build things that are still very very beautiful and very usable to people. >> I was talking with Sam Ramji, who's heading up Cloud product management at Google, as well as, developer programs across Google. We were talking at VM World, and I know their conference is more Cloud oriented. >> Hmm Hmm >> Talking about the user experience and Google is hyper-focused on building open-sourced libraries. >> Hmm Hmm >> So Google is going to be contributing all this goodness, you got the tensor flow, you got all this innovations going on at Google, that's translating to the edge of the network, we're seeing that with Samsung. House devices are great, you got TVs that are known for that, but connecting the smart things is really their strategy. As a developer, how do you look at that landscape, because you're looking at now tons of open source goodness coming in, from Google and then the communities, Android leveling up on capability. >> Hmm hmm >> And with the open APIs, where do you try to navigate, how do you extract the signal from the noise in the community? >> Well basically, you look for whatever libraries are actually used very heavily by people that have latest commands. If it comes from something like from Google, or from other really strong reputed open source players, like Square, you'll end up seeing adoption of that a lot more. When you then go into internet of things, it becomes also like how you see community - the chicken and egg thing. Is this the best opportunity to go for right now? Is the community there, can I monetize this? How do you integrate it? >> Yeah, that's the big question, what's the integration? So let me ask you a question on the Android. In your opinion, Android, Apple IOS, leveled up, in terms of capability? >> Pretty much, yeah. >> What's the difference between IOS and the Android, if you could explain to someone that's knocking on the door of both developer communities. >> Well basically, I would go for who you were trying to go for first. Are you trying to target the U.S, and trying to target that higher end of consumer? Or are you trying to have a mass appeal? For a lot of small start-ups, I'd actually say go IOS first, it makes sense. But when you want to bring it to the global market that's when you really, really, really need Android. When you want to bring it to places around the world where there are more Androids than IOS, that's definitely something that just needs that core experience. >> Is there anything that Android has, because it seems to me that Android has a lot more unique opportunities to customize. >> Yes. >> I think that seems to appeal to developers. When I look at our data, we look at our audience, I'll see the general purpose, I call general purpose Apple because Apple is like fine jewelry. Everyone wants to have the high-end suits, and the high-end code, whatever. But, you don't have the flexibility because it's kind of a walled garden from Java's standpoint. You have the open garden with the Android, that community, their playing more in open source, you're seeing block chain, you're seeing all these kinds of cool communities. What are some of the things that Android offers in this open approach that you like? Is there things that jump out at you? >> Well a lot of it's the ability to get customized, to have better security controls, to have widgets on your home screen. From a developer's standpoint, to have more flexibility about when you ask for permissions vs. when you don't. Also, the richness of the notifications, we've had that for a while on Android. It's like you can do actions and have things animate and keep things like progress bars on there for quite some time and IOS is finally catching up to that. >> And you're happy with Android? >> Oh, very much so. >> Alright, so what's your take on this show at Samsung? What's your vibe on the show, feeling, they got some good stuff? When do they need to work on things? >> Ummm. >> Give me the positive review and then give me the critical what they can do better? >> Yeah, I think actually bringing everything together in a connected cloud makes a lot of sense. Developers don't really like fragmented APIs. If you have to actually go talk to five or six different services to get something done, that's a lot more effort and a lot more overhead of understanding of how to connect to each one. So bringing it all together in one place, especially if that can have the overhead of, handle the overhead, making it secure, and doing data storage, and all that stuff, makes a lot of sense. >> Awesome. Hilary, final question for ya, personal question, put you on the spot here. What's the coolest thing you've built this past couple of years? That you coded, could be anything. >> Ohhh. >> What's the coolest thing that you feel >> Personally? >> Yeah. >> Alright, so I guess it was a year and a half now, there was a team of four of us that build the new Android Eats app. Built it from scratch in about three and a half months It was a team that was magical and never happens in Silicon Valley. It was three women and a latino dude, and we shipped it. >> No way. >> Yeah. >> Three months? >> Yeah, three and a half months. Starting in September, shipping early. >> We're talking, on the drawing board, on the design, >> Yeah. Literally, start to end. First line of code in early September, end of code writing, like wrapping and shipping it up right before Christmas. >> That's the new format, three women and a latino dude. (laughing) Congratulations, anything you'd like to share with the audience about the development scene here, what you're thinking about, what you're passionate about? >> I really really loved the piece of using technology to build more human connection, better humanity. I thought that was amazing; that piece was really inspiring to me. >> This is the new lifestyle tech is coming. The consumerization, blending analog, and digital together. This is the new normal from fashion tech, to UberEats. Congratulations, thanks for coming on theCUBE, Hilary Karls, Senior Software Engineer at Uber. This is theCUBE's live coverage of Samsung Developer Conference 2017, in San Francisco. I'm John Furrier, we'll be back with more after this short break. (cheerful music)

>> Announcer: From San Fransico, it's TheCUBE. Covering Samsung Developer Conference 2017. Brought to you by Samsung. (light electronic music) >> Hi everyone, welcome to day two coverage of the Samsung Developer Conference, or SDC 2017. I'm John Furrier, co-host of TheCUBE, co-founder of siliconANGLE Media. I'm here with Anouk Wipprecht. Hard to say last name, but I have a hard time with my Rs. It's an east coast thing. Welcome to TheCUBE. >> Thank you so much! >> So I'm super excited to chat with you, because you're doing some really innovative things around fashion tech, which we think is going to be at the cusp of a whole new revolution of fashion embedding tech. Before we get started, I have some pointed questions, so to speak. >> Yeah. >> Talk about what you're working on. People might not know some of your dresses, the spider dress has been famous. Talk about your work, and we'll jump into it. >> Yeah, I work as my own self owned fashion and technology, so the combination of fashion and technology. Some of my dresses, they are bleeding in, they are serving cocktail shots, they are attacking, really, with mechanic spider legs on the shoulders. They are exploding in a layer of smoke, sort of. So I do a lot with animatronics and robotics, and what I want to do is that, fashion is augmenting us, you know? So creating an interaction. >> So you're designing dresses in a way that's integrating new elements... >> Yeah. >> With some tech, robotic arms, the spider dress is one that retracts and has some coolness to it. But there's also the smoke dress... >> Anouk: Yeah. >> How many dresses have you designed? Give us a taste of the flavors and the reactions. >> Yeah, so I have, in total, 37 dresses. So it's a really big family, and the family starts to expand more and more. For me, it's a lot about expression, and about investigating how, if you place these pieces of technology on the body, what they can do, you know? So, seeing fashion as an interface, because I always say garments are there to shelter us, to keep us comfortable in a way, and for me, fashion is something different. For me, fashion is about expression and about communication. And for me, this fashion is analog, our garments are analog, they're not digital, they're not interactive, you know? So I want to put computer boards, microcontrollers in everything, sensors in everything so they start to come alive and they can really express us. And by that, really interesting things come because, do you want to be always expressed? Or do you always want to emote yourself? Or, how does that go? That is, for me, my biggest fascination, researching this field. >> Yeah, and it's here, at the Samsung Developer Conference, so obviously front and center on the keynotes. You're hearing, you're seeing your work, and on the things displayed, they're calling smart things. >> Anouk: Yeah. >> Clothes can be smart. And you're kind of going down that road. Obviously, robotics was a first step, cause that's cool tech. >> Yeah. >> Digital displays are coming, right? >> Anouk: Correct. >> Imagine, like, >> Anouk: Oh yeah, oh yeah. >> My top tweed on my shirt, or you know, my Facebook posts, or my friends. >> Yeah. >> Using the data, how are you thinking about this as a designer? Most people will think geeky, okay, got the data, and a database, but as an artist, as a designer. >> Myself, I do this for about 12 to 15 years. So I started at the beginning of the 2000s, really trying to see how fashion can become this interface, and I think by me growing into this, technology got smaller and smaller, and it's got closer to the body, in a way, so it was able to emboss in your garments. I think that just opens up so many interesting possibilities that haven't been explored yet, except for only, like, the Fit Bits and the watches, the smart watches that are more bothering us. But they don't do anything with the data officialization. They don't do anything to officialize this data. It's only, basically, in the screen, and I want to get it out of the screen and into the real life. >> So one of the most popular dresses that I notice on Twitter and on Google Search was the spider dress. That's got mechanical arms, got like spider legs, and it comes out, it's this cool, cool experience. >> Anouk: Yeah. >> Also, you have the smoke dress. >> Mm-hmm. >> Talk about what they do differently. Talk about the spider dress, the smoke dress, and what was the one with the heartbeat? Share some of what the dresses personify. >> So the spider dress, I created or, I had the pleasure to create with the semiconductor company Intel, and this dress is really about personal space. There's proximity sensors under the chin, so they are measuring when people come into the personal space. And when people do, there's mechanic legs on the shoulders, and they are basically attacking. But they're not just in one way, it would be boring. So depending on how you walk into the space and where you're standing, it's reacting differently. So, somebody's walking up to you very fast, and your dress is reacting very fast. >> It's like a spider sense. It's like a spider sense and you can feel the expression. Whoa, stay back, or... >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Be ready to engage. >> You can use this piece of technology which is host on your body in order to do something that we might not do, like defend yourself. An animal, if you come in the closeness of a cat, the cat will give you a claw, right? But we would say like, oh... We would choose to maybe feel uncomfortable this way. So I was thinking, if you have a system on the body that can do that for you, wow. That's technology helping you out, right? >> Certainly, if someone gets too close, uncomfortable, a little shock treatment might help. >> Yeah, correct. >> Help keep people away. That's a fun example, but I think this is kind of revolutionary, in my opinion. This is so kind of cool because you've got technology, you've got expression, you've got human interaction, all these things going on. Talk about the smoke dress, what is that about? >> Yeah, to just point out, I think, working with this, one of the main factors that I think is really interesting is that technology doesn't become a tool, it becomes a companion. It lives on your body, it lives with you, and it can maybe also listen to your body signals and it knows how you're doing, and that is sometimes not with handheld devices. They don't know how you feel, but as soon as it's on the body, it feels your heart, it can sense your brain, it can sense your pulse, your muscle contraction, and I think that makes it really interesting. These new technologies on the body can really listen to us. >> They're coming faster, too. You're seeing here, Samsung Health is the first step, obviously that's the sensors on the body. That's an internetive things device. >> Anouk: Yeah. >> And the phone is just a companion. But also, I would just say, that we had some guests yesterday, some influencers on. Validating that augmented reality is so much more advanced. It points to what you're doing. It's not something virtual, it's just augmenting what the human's doing. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. >> Alright, smoke dress, and what's that other dress, that does the heartbeat? >> Yeah. Smoke dress, basically, also based on sense. If more people are around, in the surroundings, the more smoke escapes. So, more the feeling of diving away, like shyness. So working with different emotions, I also created a series of dresses for Cirque du Soleil. We know, as the theater, they have a restaurant in Ibiza, and I created dresses that make cocktails. So a little push on the button, and then a peristaltic pump in the back, and it serves a little cocktail shot, and they are giving that. So looking at how this science can also be social, for example. How can they be personal? How can they be intimate? And I think that is the most interesting thing, to look at that that way while designing. >> Yeah, it's got to pretty interesting. People can take these into different social situations. >> Yeah. >> Parties or large crowds, the spider could be good for that. >> Yeah, but it's also, how can it help you? How can it help your shyness? How can it help you proceed in the world? How can it engage you? I think, like a lot of these things we don't understand yet, how technology can be this learning system. How can we work with technology hand in hand that way? >> So how did you get into all this? This is so cool. >> I started with fashion design myself. I was 14 years old, and again, the notion of these dresses. Expressive, communicative, but they were analog. So when I was 17 years old, I combined it with another love of mine, which is robots. I love robots, they're amazing. But I didn't want the robot to stand next to me, be modeled after a human. I wanted to place the robot on my body, or on the body, and be reacting and interacting like an animal. More intuitive, much more expressive, or maybe rebellious. And by that, it's open up a bos-khal of possibilities for what you can do regarding that, and how they can be interesting. >> Yeah, and I think this is going to be one of those fashion tech areas. What's the industry like right now on the fashion tech? For the folks that aren't following fashion tech. Where's the state of the industry? I mean, this is cutting edge you're doing, certainly. We love it. >> Anouk: Yeah. >> Where is the industry? >> Correct. Especially, like, the things that I'm doing are a little bit more about extremities, right? Really provoking this notion of what fashion can be as soon as it becomes interactive. But especially, like, the last five years, the technology industry... Again, I'm doing this for longer than 12 years. The last five years, really, the technology industry is really interested it. The last two to three years, the fashion industry starts to like, hey, look at it. But I think technology and fashion need to go, much more talking to each other in order to really make this field grow and all of that. That is where we come in, the creators, and the creatives, you know? We are the instigators of the ones that try to push these boundaries and try to bridge these gaps a little bit in order to make a melting pot regarding to that. >> Well, you're doing a great job, I'm super impressed. It's super inspiring to me, I mean, I'm just intrigued by the whole thing. I got to get your reaction to how the younger generation's responding. I have two daughters and two sons, but my daughters would probably be into this. What's the younger, I mean, younger people must be loving this. Older people are, oh get off my lawn, this is too crazy. But maybe the younger people might like it better? What's the reaction? >> First of all, I do a lot of it like animals. Children love animals. I do myself a lot, the maker fair, for example. The maker scene, I always say, builds cool stuff, but also see how a new generation can learn from this, so most of my designs are open source. I do a lot of lectures at maker spaces, workshops with children, kids in electronics, but also girls in programming, just to see how that goes. In a really playful way, you know? Or looking at certain topics, so robotics, or these things. So really also trying to engage that. I think, children growing up, they love this because there are so many things in the screen and as soon as that becomes physical, they really have an engagement with it. >> So the maker culture is really growing. It certainly has been one of those awesome phenomenons that we're seeing, kind of like open source decades ago. The creator culture, the maker culture, the builder culture, this is real deal. >> Yeah. >> You get consumer devices as good as the Samsung 8 here happening, >> Yeah, correct. >> Or the smart TVs, so how are you making that open? Just take one minute to describe to the folks out there who might be interested in getting involved. Is there any collaboration with universities? Is it fashion institutes? Is it on the web? >> Anouk: Yeah. >> Is it your own community share? >> Yeah, well one really big fan I am of open source. So basically, open sourcing, like sharing what you have. You can do this online at websites, you can put your codes online. And I think by sharing... >> That's your website? >> You can find on my website, there's websites like, for example, GitHub. If you have pieces of code, you put it on there, and it's free for the community to use. It's a lot about community, you know? If I would make something, I can publish online, and release step by step how to do it, where to cut the 3D printed model, where to cut the codes, and people can make an electronic ring, for example. And by seeing what kind of piece you can give away from you process, somebody else can learn from that. >> And build on top of it. >> Yeah, correct. So I grew up with, for example, Arduino, it's an open source platform board. And it's microcontroller boards that you can program. And it's open-source, sort of free for people to just work with, and it's really a big education part in there. Education can be expensive, so how can we open this up? How can we make it accessible? And I think that is really important to do. >> And this is great, because this could democratize the closed fashion industry, open up new design opportunities from anyone. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and also, a company. You don't have to open-source, but what is that little piece that you can open-source? That you can give away, that you can give to the community, or to developers, or people to play with? >> So TheCUBE team can build some Cube clothes? >> Oh yeah. (laughter) >> Lenny's like, he wants that. >> Very cute. >> So I got to ask, on the community side. Love this, love this vision, because this is kind of an open source model. >> Yeah. >> You building on the shoulders of others, you're one of the pioneers. What do you see as critical things that need to happen to continue the accelerated growth or more momentum? What would you wish to see? >> Can you give an example? >> Like, what needs to happen to continue the momentum? More people participating? More designs? >> I think... >> More contributions from donors? More academic? >> I think what happens now, for example, like a Samsung developer conferencing part of the creative trek, me and also san-lee, who gave the keynote this morning. And I think inviting more people into each other's disciplines. Samsung here is inviting the creatives into the trek. How can the fashion industry invite technology in there? The technology industry invites fashion? And all of this stuff, you know? So you can really get this melting pot of creative, to architects, to designers, to engineers, and all of that together, you know? I think that is a wonderful world that I love, and that I see much more happening. The instigation of those different disciplines together. >> I love how you have the robotics love as a kid, and you brought your fashion love together. Two disciplines, two amazing things. Advice for young girls out there today who are, maybe feeling that, you know, it's a male dominated world, or who might have an interest in robotics. Robotics clubs are hot right now. Go to all the elementary schools and high schools in America you're seeing robotics become a big deal. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> What's your advice for young girls out there who want to develop their passion? >> One thing is always follow your dream. If you want to have something... If you have something in mind, hey, I want to build an octopus dress, and it might be too far away, how can you get there? Set your goal and go towards there, find it out, be curious, see how you can build these things. And especially if people would say no? You go there to prove them wrong. So that is something that I learned. >> Don't say take no for an answer, always follow your path. >> Yeah, my ideas are very far out, very far. So I always got, oh, this and that, and I always said no. And it's always about following your passion. If there's something that's really stirring you, go find it because that is, in the end, what is driving you. It is not the money, it's not anything of that. It is your passion and something that you want to fight for. >> Find that itch to scratch, always go after what you want. Okay, so final question for you, is, in your experience with your cutting edge designs and all the work you're doing, which is phenomenal, how have you observed the user experience of the general world these days? Because certainly, mobile's out there. We see mobile, but as you start to push the boundaries in clothing that's an expression, it's a human thing, the user experience is becoming integrated. The fabric. What have you learned and observed about user's expectations for future user interfaces? >> I think haptic feedback is really interesting. Also, as soon as you have garments with things in there, the feedback that you can get from that, notifications, or you can think of different ways regarding to that, really the way we interface now with the screen, how can that be more embodied? And to embody that experience, for example, is very interesting but it's also, how can an embodied experience become an epidermis which goes into your house? How can your living accessories react to you or your moods or emotions? I think moods and emotion are a really interesting topic, which also can be much more explored regarding to interaction design and user experiences. >> It's interesting, and I'm also visualizing coolness around an automatic QR code that could tell you how I'm feeling. Stay away from me today, QR code. >> And people still need to scan you. >> We'll have an automatic scanner on there, a little Samsung scanner with facial recognition. No, this is pretty cool, so... >> But these garments are QR codes, but they are surrounding the body, they are not... They have a broader bandwidth to broadcast. >> The personal network is coming. Your personal clothing network. And thank you very much for coming on, we really appreciate it. You're doing some really amazing work and the creative boundaries you're pushing, it's really phenomenal. We're going to share the links for all your stuff with our audience, and great to see Intel helping you out and getting that spider design going. Intel's always doing cutting edge work, so it's good to see that. >> Yeah, they're awesome. >> Thanks for coming on TheCUBE, we appreciate it. Good luck with all your endeavors, appreciate it. This is TheCUBE here, breaking down the fashion tech at the edge of the network. That's the new edge, is your clothes. Be ready for disruption, it's a maker culture. Get involved, check out Anouk's website. This is TheCUBE, more live coverage from Samsung Developer Conference 2017 after this short break. (light electronic music)