>>from the bellagio Hotel >>in Las Vegas. >>It's the >>cube covering >>Ui Path forward. >>Four brought to >>you by Ui Path. >>Welcome back to Las Vegas. The cube is here. We've been here for two days covering Ui Path Forward for lisa martin here with David Monty. We've talked about automation and many industries. Now this segment is going to focus on automation and healthcare. We've got two guests joining us Jim Petrosea Cto of Blue Cross, Blue Shield and Gadget. Dhaliwal. The global C. I. O. Industry lead at you. I pass guys welcome to the program. Thank you. So let's start unpacking from the CTO level and the ceo level the agenda for automation. Jim let's start with you. What does that look like >>for us. It's actually pretty strategic and part of as we think about digital and what digital transformation means, it actually plays a pretty key role. Um There are a lot of processes that can be very manual within a big organization like Blue cross and Blue shield and to be able to streamline that and take away kind of what I would call the mundane work. Right? The the you know, going through a spreadsheet and then typing it into the screen, there are a lot of processes like that that are legacy. But what if you could take that away um and actually create a better work experience for the people that work there right? And and focus on higher value type uh type things and it's really key. And it really It goes down to our our business folks right? There are a lot of things we can drive with automation. We started a program um in 2019. Um that's been quite successful. We now have 250 box, we measure what we call annualized efficiency gains. So how much efficiency are we getting by these bots? So the bots are doing um this repetitive work that people would do. Um And what we're finding is, you know, we've got about $11 million in any wise efficiency gain through the process and we're just getting started. Um But we're all we're not stopping there too though, we're enabling citizen developers. So we're saying, hey business, if you want to automate, you know, parts of your job, we're gonna help you do that. So we've got about 60 people that were training. Um We run bad Ethan's where they come together and they actually create bots uh And it's really really creating some some impact and buzz in our business >>anywhere from your lens, where does automation fit within the C. I. O. S. Agenda? And how do you work together in unison with the C. T. O. To help roll this out across the enterprise? >>Yeah, no, definitely. And in fact as a part of introduction, I can actually share that. How I'm wearing a Ceo had within your path since I'm just joining join path and I'm actually now helping a client ceos in their automation strategy but I was a deputy ceo in my prior role at L. A. County where actually I ran the automation strategy. So if we look at from our organization perspective B complex as L. A County which is such a Federated organization. From a Ceo perspective, the way we look at the strategy is it's always driven by the business goals of the city or a county and we typically drive into three different areas. One is how we can transform our operational processes so that we can save the tax dollars. It's all about doing more with the less dollars. And then second is about how we can transform our residents experience because end of the day it is all about how we can improve the quality of life for our residents. So we've got 10 million people for L. A. County, the largest populous county in us. So it was an uphill task to serve that such a diverse population need and that the third area is about how to transform the new business models because as we are moving away from a government centric approach to the residents centric approach, you really need to come up with a new digital solutions. And Ceo is in the center of all these three elements when you look at it. So it's a very appear to us to keep keep improving your efficiency and then at a time keep adding the new digital solutions and that's where automation strategy is kind of a horizontal strategy which enables all these components. So what I hear from >>that is alignment with the business. Yeah. Right. Change management. Absolutely. That's like really fundamental and then see IOS this this agent of transformation uh you can see or she has a horizontal purview across the organization now now jim the cto role is the automation at blue cross blue shield lead by you or you there to make sure the technology plugs into your enterprise architecture. What's your shoulder? >>You know? Uh my my role is really to drive uh what I'll call technology enabled business change. Right. So I actually uh started our our automation journey uh at hc sc and I did that by partnering with our business. Um There was actually a lot of buzz around automation and there were actually some small pockets of it, none of it was enterprise scale. Um Right. And we really wanted to go big in this and and working with the business sponsors, they saw value in it. Um and we've you know, we've generated um a lot of uh efficiency, better quality of work because of it but but I very closely had a partner with our business, we have a committee that is lead of business folks that I facilitate. So I view my role as an enabler, um we have to communicate the change management pieces is huge. Uh the education just having a common vernacular on what is automation mean, Right, because everybody interpreted it differently um and then being able to do it at an enterprise scale is quite challenging. Um You know, I I really enjoyed um one of the key notes, I don't know if you had a chance to see shankar by Duncan from the hidden brain, right? But he talked a lot about the brain aspect and how do you get people to change? And and that's a large part of it. There's a lot about technology, but there's really a lot about being a change agent um and and really working very closely with your business, >>how does one measure? I'm hearing a lot time saved. Our saved. How does one measure that and quantify the dollar impact, which by the way, I'm on record as saying the soft dollars are way bigger. And but when you're talking to the, you know, the bottom line CFO and it's all about, you know, the cash flow, whatever is, how do you measure that? >>I can take it. So we, what we do is as we define these use cases right? We we go through an actual structure product process where we we gather them. Um we then rate them and we actually prioritize them based on those that are going to have the greatest impact. Um and we can tell based on, you know, what is the manual effort today. So we understand there are X number of people that do this X number of days and we think this body can take that some load off of them. Right? Um So we we go in with the business case. Um And then the Ui Path platform actually allows us to measure well, how much is that pot running? Right. So we can actually sit there and say, well we wanted that thing to run 10 hours a day and it did and it's generated this kind of efficiency because otherwise the human would have had to do that work. >>So the business case is kind of redeploying >>human. It really is is really maximizing human capital and make and and you know really using because the bots do repetitive stuff really well. They don't do higher level thinking and and we don't view it as replacing people, we view it as augmenting and actually making them more efficient and more effective at what, how do you get the dollars out of that? Well, a couple of ways. Right. And so one of the things we've we've done is we we create and measure the efficiency our business users and financed by the way is one of our bigger ones. And the CFO is one of the sponsors of the program, um can decide how to reinvest it in a lot of cases it is actually cost avoidance as we grow, literally being able to grow without adding staff. I mean that's very measurable. Um in some cases it is actually taking, you know cost out um in in certain cases, but a lot of times that's just through attrition, right? You don't back fill positions, you let it happen naturally. Um and and then there's just things that happen to your business that you have to respond to give you a great example, state of texas, um passes what's the equivalent of the no surprise attack. But they did it there before the federal government did it. Um but it requires a lot of processes to be put in place, because now you have providers and payers having to deal with disputes, right? It actually generates a boatload of work. And we thought there might be, you know, 5000 of these in the first year, where there were 21,000 in the first year. And so far this year we're doubling that amount, right. We were able to use automation to respond to that without having to add a bunch of stuff. If we had to add staff for that, it would have literally been, you know, maybe hundreds of people, right? And but now, you know, there's, you can clearly put a value on it and it's millions of dollars a year, that we would have otherwise had to expect. >>The reason I'm harping on this lease is because I've been through a lot of cycles, as you know, and after the dot com boom, the the cost avoidance meant not writing the check to the software company, right? And that's what nick Carr wrote this, i. T matter. And then, and then, you know, post the financial crisis, we've entered uh a decade plus of awareness on the impact of technology. And I wonder if it's, I think this, I think this the cycle is changing I think. And I wonder if you have an opinion here where people, I think organizations are going to look at Technology completely different than they did like in the early 2000s when it was just easy to cut. >>No, I think the other point I will add to it. I agree with the gym. So we typically look at our away but it doesn't always have to be the cost. Right? If you look from the outcomes of the value, there are other measures also right? If you look at the how automation was able to help in the Covid generate. It was never about costs at that time. It was about a human lives. So you always may not be able to quantify it what you look at. Okay. What how are we maximizing the value or what kind of situations where we are and where we may not even have a human power to do that work. And we are running against the time. It could be the compliance needs. I'll give example of our covid use case which was pretty big success uh within L. A. County we deployed bots for the covid contact tracing program. So we were actually interviewing all the people who were testing positive so that we actually can keep track of them and then bring back that data within our HR so that our criminologists actually can look at the trends and see how we are doing as a county as compared to other counties and nationally. And we were in the peak, we were interviewing about 5000 people a day And we had to process that data manually into our nature and we deployed 15 members to do that. And they were doing like about 600 interviews a day. So every day we had a backlog of 2500 interviews. So it is not about a cost saving or a dollar value here because nobody planned for these unplanned events and now we don't have a time and money to find more data entry operators and parts were able to actually clear up all the backlog. So the value which we were able to bring it is way beyond the cost element. >>I I believe that 100% and I've been fighting this battle for a long time and it's easier to fight now because we're in this economic cycle even despite the pandemic, but I think it can be quantified. I honestly believe it can be tied to the income statement or in the case of a public sector, it could be tied to the budget and the mission how that budget supports the mission of the company. But I really believe it. And and I've always said that those soft factors are dwarf the cost savings, but sometimes, you know, sometimes the CFO doesn't listen, you know, because he or she has to cut. I think automation could change that >>for public sector. We look at how we can do more about it. So it's because we don't look at bottom line, it's about the tax dollars, we have limited dollars, but how we can maximize the value which we are giving to residents, it is not about a profit for us. We look at the different lens when it comes to the commercial >>Side, it's similar for us. So as a as a health care pair, because we're a mutual right? Our members and we have 17 million of them are really the folks that own the company and we're very purpose driven. Our our purpose is to do everything in our power to stand by members in sickness and in health. So how do you get the highest quality, cost effective health care for them? So if automation allows you to be more effective and actually keep that cost down, that means you can cover more people and provide higher quality care to our members. So that's really the driver for mission driven, >>I was gonna ask you as a member as one of your 17 million members, what are some of the ways in which automation is benefiting me? >>Um you know, a number of different ways. First off, you know, um it lowers our administrative costs, right? So that means we can actually lower our rights as as we go out and and and work with folks? That's probably the the the the bottom line impact, but we're also automating processes uh to to make it easier for the member. Right? Uh the example I used earlier was the equivalent of no surprises. Right. How do we take the member out of the middle of this dispute between, you know, out of network providers and the payer and just make it go away. Right, and we take care of it. Um but that that creates potentially administrative burden on our side, but we want to keep their costs down and we do it efficiently using it. So there's a number of use cases that we've we've done across, you know, different parts of our business. We automate a lot of our customer service, right? When you call um there's bots in the background that are helping that that agent do their job. And what that means is you're on the show, you're on the phone a lot shorter of a period of time. And that agent can be more concise and more accurate in answering your question. >>So your employee experience is dramatically improved, as is the member experience? >>Yes, they go hand in hand. They do go hand, unhappy members means unhappy employees, 100% >>mentioned scale before, you said you can't scale in this particular, the departmental pockets. Talk about scale a little bit. I'm curious as to how important cloud is to scale. Is it not matter. Can you scale without cloud? What are the other dimensions of scale? >>Well, you know, especially with my CTO had, we're we're pushing very heavily to cloud. We view ourselves as a cloud first. We want to do things in a cloud versus our own data centers, partially because of the scale that it gives us. But because we're healthcare, we have to do it very securely. So. We are very meticulous about guarding our data, how we encrypt information um, not only in our data center but in the cloud and controlling the keys and having all the controls in place. You know, the C. So and I are probably the best friends right now in the company because we have to do it together and you have to take that that security mind set up front. Right cloud first. Put security first with it. Um, so we're moving what we can to the cloud because we think it's just going to give us better scale as we grow and better economics overall, >>Any thoughts on that? I think a similar thoughts but if we look from L. A. county because of the sheer volume itself because the data which we are talking about. We had 40 departments within the county. Each department is serving a different business purpose for the resident beit voting or B justice or being social services and all and the amount of data which we are generating for 10 million residents and the amount of duplicate asi which it comes out because it's a very government centering model. You have a different systems and they may not be talking to each other. The amount of diplomacy and identity delicacy which we are creating and as we are enabling the interoperability between these functions to give us seamless experience keeping security in mind so fully agree on that because the end of the day we have to ensure that customer guarantee but it's a sheer volume that as and when we are adding these data sets and the patient's data as well as the residents data and now we have started adding a machine data because we have deployed so many IOT solutions so the data which is coming from those machines, the logs and all its exponential so that's where the scale comes into picture and how we can ensure that we are future ready for the upscale which we need and that's where cloud ability definitely helps a lot. >>What do you mean by future ready? >>So if you look at from a future smart city or a smart community perspective, imagine when machines are everywhere machines and IOT solutions are deployed, beat even healthcare, your bad information, you're even patient information, everything is interconnected and amount of data which is getting generated in that your automobile they're going to start talking to entertainment or we have to potentially track a single resident might be going same person going to the justice or maybe same person might be having a mental health issues, A same person might be looking for a social services, how we're going to connect those dots and what all systems they are touching. So all that interconnections needs to happen. So that exponential increase of data is a future readiness, which I'm talking about. Are we future ready from a technology perspective? Are we future ready from the other ecosystem perspective and how and how we're gonna manage those situations? Uh, so those are the things which we >>look at it and it's a it's a multiplier to, right? We all have this influx of information and you need to figure out what to do with it. Right. This is where artificial intelligence, machine learning is so important. But you also have interoperability standards that are coming. So now we're we have this massive data that each of our organizations have. But now you have interoperability which is a good thing for the member saying now I need to be able to share that data. Yeah, I wanted to ask you about >>that because a lot of changes in health care, um, are meaningful use. You have to show that to get paid but the standards weren't mature. Right? And so now that's changing what role does automation play in facilitating those standards. >>So, you know, we're big, big supporters of the fire standard that's out there um to in order to be able to support the standards and and create a P. I. S. And and pull together the information. What what will happen sometimes in the background is there's actually um artificial intelligence, machine learning models that create algorithms right? The output of that though often has to be active. Now a person can do something with that information or a vodka. Right? So when you start taking the ideal of artificial intelligence and now you have a robotic process that can use that to pull together the information and assimilated in a way to make it higher quality. But now it's available. It's kind of in the background. You don't see it but it's there helping. >>What are some of the things that you see? I know we're out of time but I just have a couple more questions. Some of the things that you see here we are you I path forward for we're in person. This is a bold company that's growing very quickly. Some of the announcements that were made, what are what are some of your reaction to that? And how do you see it helping move blue crush blue shield forward even >>faster. Well you know a lot of the announcements in terms of some of the features that that they've added around their robotics processing are great right? The fact that they're in the cloud and and some of the capabilities and and and better ability to to support that the process mining is key. Right. In order for abouts to be effective, you have to understand your process and you just don't want to necessarily automate the bad practices. Right? So you want to take a look at those processes to figure out how you can automate things smartly. Um and some of their capabilities around that are very interesting. We're going to explore that quite a bit but but I think they're the ambition here is beyond robotics. Right. It's actually creating um you know, applications that actually are using bots in the background which is very intriguing and has a lot of potential potentially to drive even more digital transformation. This can really affect all of our workers and allow us to take digital solutions out to the market a lot faster >>and to see what was going to ask you, you are here for four weeks at UI Path, you got to meet a lot of your colleagues, which is great. But what about this company attracted you to leave your former role and come over here to the technology vendor side. >>Well, I think I was able to achieve the similar role within L. A. County, able to establish the automation practice and achieve the maturity, able to stand up things and I feel that this is the same practitioner activity which I can actually take it back to the other clients ceos because of one thing which I really like about your hypothesis. RP is just a small component of it. I really want to change that mindset that we have to start looking ui path as an end to end full automation enterprise solution and it is not only the business automation, it's the idea automation and it's a plus combination and whether we are developing a new industry solutions with our partners to help the different industry segments and we actually helping Ceo in the center of it because Ceo is the one who is driving the automation, enabling the business automation and actually managing the automation ceo and the governess. So CEO is in left and center of it and my role is to ensure that I actually help those Ceos to make successful and get that maturity and you will path as a platform is giving that ability of length and breath and that's what is really fascinating me and I'm really looking forward that how that spectrum is changing that we are getting matured in a process mining area and how we are expanding our horizons to look at the whole automation suit, not just the R. P. Product and that's something which I'm really looking forward and seeing that how we're going to continue expanding other magic quadrants and we're actually going to give the seamless experience so the client doesn't have to worry about okay for this, I have to pick this and further, I have to pick something else >>that's seamless experience is absolutely table stakes these days. Guys, we're out of time. But thank you so much for joining. David me, talking about automation and health care. Your recommendations for best practices, how to go about doing that and and the change management piece. That's a critical piece. We appreciate your time. >>Thanks for having. Thank >>you. Our pleasure for day Volonte. I'm lisa martin live in las Vegas. The cubes coverage of you a path forward for continues next. Mhm. Mhm mm.

>> Announcer: From Miami Beach, Florida, it's The Cube, covering Acronis Global Cyber Summit 2019. Brought to you by Acronis. >> Welcome back everyone. We are here with The Cube coverage for two days. We're wrapping up, getting down on day one in the books for the Acronis Global Cyber Summit 2019. I'm John Furrier, your host of The Cube. We are in Miami Beach, the Fontainebleau Hotel. I'm personally excited for this next guest because I'm a huge Red Sox fan, even though I got moved out to California. Giants is in a different area. National League is different than American League, still my heart with the Red Sox. And we're here with an industry veteran, seasoned professional in IT and data, Brian Shield. Boston Red Sox Vice President of Technology and IT. Welcome to The Cube, thanks for joining us. >> Thank you. It's great to be here. >> John: So congratulations on the rings. Since I moved out of town, Red sox win their World Series, break the curse of the Bambino. >> Hey we appreciate that. Thank you. >> My family doesn't want me back. You got to show >> Yeah, maybe I'll put this one up for the, maybe someone can zoom in on this. Which camera is the good one? This one here? So, there ya go. So, World Series champs for at least for another week. (laughter) >> Bummer about this year. Pitching just couldn't get it done. But, good team. >> Happens. >> Again, things move on, but you know. New regime, new GM going to come on board. >> Yup. >> So, but in general, Red Sox, storied franchise. Love it there. Fenway Park, the cathedral of baseball parks. >> Brian: Defnitely. >> And you're seeing that just play out now, standard. So just a great place to go. We have tickets there. So, I got to ask you. Technology, sports, really is modernized faster than I think any category. And certainly cyber security forced to modernize because of the threats. But sports, you got a business to run, not just IT and making the planes run on time. >> Sure. >> Scouts, money, whatever. >> Fans. >> You got fan experience. >> Stadium opportunities. >> Club management, scouts are out there. So you got business, team, fans. And data's a big part of it. That's part of your career. Tell us what the cutting edge innovation is at the Red Sox these days. >> I think baseball in general, as you indicated, it's a very evolving kind of environment. I mean historically I think people really sort of relish the nostalgia of sports and Fenway Park being as historic as it is, was probably the pinnacle of that, in some respects. But Red Sox have always been leaders and baseball analytics, you know. And everyone's pretty familiar with "Moneyball" and Brad Pitt. >> John: Is that a true story, he turned down the GM job? >> I'm told it is. (laughter) I don't know if I fully vetted that question. But over the last six, seven years, you know we've really turned our attention to sort of leveraging sort of technology across the businesses, right? Not just baseball and analytics and how we do scouting, which continues to evolve at a very rapid pace. But also as you pointed out, running a better business, understanding our fans, understanding fan behavior, understanding stadiums. There's a lot of challenges around running an effective stadium. First and foremost to all of us is really ensuring it's a great fan experience. Whether it's artificial intelligence, or IoT technologies or 5G or the latest Wifi, all those things are coming up at Fenway Park. You and I talked earlier about we're about to break ground for a new theater, so a live theater on the outside, beyond the bleachers type of thing. So that'll be a 5,400-seat arena, 200 live performances a year, and with e-sports, you know, complementing it. It just gives you an example of just how fast baseball is sort of transitioning. >> And the theater, is that going to be blown out from where that parking garage is, structure and going towards >> So the corner of Landsdown and Ipswich, if you think of that sort of corner back there, for those that are familiar with the Fenway area. So it's going to be a very big change and you'll see the difference too from within the ballpark. I think we'll lose a couple of rows of the bleachers. That'll be replaced with another gathering area for fans and things like that, on the back end of that theater. So build a great experience and I think it really speaks to sort of our ability to think of Fenway as more of a destination, as a venue, as a complementary experience. We want people to come to the area to enjoy sports and to enjoy entertainment and things. >> You know Brian, the consumerization of IT has been kicked around. Last decade, that was a big buzzword. Now the blending of a physical event and digital has certainly consumed the world. >> Absolutely. >> And we're starting to see that dynamic. You speak to a theater. That's a physical space. But digital is also a big part of kind of that complementary. It's not mutually exclusive for each other. They're integrated business models. >> Absolutely. >> So therefore, the technology has to be seamless. The data has to be available. >> Yup. >> And it's got to be secure. >> Well the data's got to be ubiquitous, right? I mean you don't want to, if we're going to have fans attending theater and then you're going to go to Fenway Park or they leave a game and then go to some other event or they attend a tour of Fenway Park, and beyond maybe the traditional what people might think about, is certainly when you think about baseball and Fenway Park. You know we have ten to twelve concerts a year. We'll host Spartan games, you know. This Christmas, I'm sorry, Christmas 2020 we now have sort of the Fenway Bowl. So we'll be hosting the AAC ACC championship games there with ESPN. >> John: Hockey games? >> Hockey games. Obviously we have Liverpool soccer being held there so it's much more of a destination, a venue for us. How we leverage all the wonderful things about Fenway Park and how we modernize, how we get basically the best of what makes Fenway Park as great as it is, yet as modern as we can make it, where appropriate to create a great fan experience. >> It's a tough balance between balancing the brand and having things on brand as well. >> Sure. >> Does that come into your job a lot around IT? Saying being on brand, not kind of tearing down the old. >> Yeah absolutely. I think our CEOs and leadership team, I mean it's not success for us if you pan to the audience and everyone is looking at their phone, right? That's not what we aspire to. We aspire to leverage technology to simplify people's experience of how do you get to the ballpark, how do I park, how do I get if I want to buy concessions or merchandise, how do I do it easily and simply? How do we supplement that experience with maybe additional data that you may not have had before. Things like that, so we're doing a lot of different testing right now whether it's 4D technologies or how we can understand, watch a play from different dimensions or AI and be able to perhaps see sort of the skyline of Boston since 1912, when Fenway Park launched... And so we sort of see all these technologies as supplemental materials, really kind of making it a holistic experience for fans. >> In Las Vegas, they have a section of Las Vegas where they have all their test beds. 5G, they call it 5G, it's really, you know, evolution, fake 5G but it's a sandbox. One of the challenges that you guys have in Boston, I know from a constraint standpoint physically, you don't have a lot of space. How do you sandbox new technologies and what are some of the things that are cool that people might not know about that are being sandboxed? So, one, how do you do it? >> Yeah. >> Effectively. And then what are some of the cool things that you guys are looking at or things they might not know about that would be interesting. >> Sure. Yeah so Fenway Park, we struggle as you know, a little bit with our footprint. You know, honestly, I walk into some of these large stadiums and I get instant jealousy, relative to just the amount of space that people have to work with and things. But we have a great relationship with our partners so we really partner, I think, particularly well with key partners like Verizon and others. So we now have 5G partially implemented at Fenway Park. We expect to have it sort of fully live come opening day next year. So we're really excited about that. We hope to have a new version of Wifi, the latest version of Wifi available, for the second half of the year. After the All-Star Break, probably after the season's over. But before our bowl game hopefully. We're looking at some really interesting ways that we can tease that out. That bowl game, we're really trying to use that as an opportunity, the Fenway Bowl, as an opportunity to make it kind of a high-tech bowl. So we're looking at ways of maybe doing everything from hack-a-thons to a pre-egaming sort of event to some interesting fan experiential opportunities and things like that. >> Got a lot of nerds at MIT, Northeastern, BU, Bentley, Babson, all the schools in the area. >> Yeah, so we'll be reaching out to colleges and we'll be reaching out to our, the ACC and AACs as well, and see what we can do to kind of create sort of a really fun experience and capitalize on the evolving role of e-sports and the role that technology can play in the future. >> I want to get to the e-sports in a second but I want to just get the plug in for Acronis. We're here at their Global Cyber Summit. You flew down for it, giving some keynote speeches and talks around security. It's a security company, data protection, to cyber protection. It is a data problem, not a storage appliance problem. It's a data problem holistically. You get that. >> Sure. Sure. >> You've been in the business for a long time. What is the security kind of posture that you guys have? Obviously you want to protect the data, protect privacy. But you got to business. You have people that work with you, supply chain, complex but yet dynamic, always on environment. >> That's a great question. It's evolving as you indicated. Major League Baseball, first and foremost, does an outstanding job. So the last, probably last four plus years, Major League Baseball has had a cyber security program that all the clubs partake in. So all 30 clubs are active participants in the program. They basically help build out a suite of tools as well as the ability to kind of monitor, help participate in the monitoring, sort of a lot of our cyber security assets and logs And that's really elevated significantly our posture in terms of security. We supplement that quite a bit and a good example of that is like Acronis. Acronis, for us, represents the ability for us to be able to respond to certain potential threats like ransom-ware and other things. As well as frankly, what's wonderful about a tool like this is that it allows us to also solve other problems. Making our scouts more efficient. We've got these 125 scouts scattered around the globe. These guys are the lifeblood of our, you know, the success of our business. When they have a problem, if they're in Venezuela or the Dominican or someplace else, in southeast Asia, getting them up and running as quickly as we can, being able to consume their video assets and other things as they're scouting prospects. We use Acronis for those solutions. It's great to kind of have a partner who can both double down as a cyber partner as well as someone who helps drive a more efficient business. >> People bring their phone into the stadiums too so those are end points now connecting to your network. >> Definitely. And as you pointed out before, we've got great partnerships. We've got a great concession relationship with Aramark and they operate, in the future they'll be operating off our infrastructure. So we're in the point of rolling out all new point-of-sale terminals this off-season. We're excited about that 'cause we think for the first time it really allows us to build a very comprehensive, very secure environment for both ourselves and for all the touchpoints to fans. >> You have a very stellar career. I noticed you were at Scudder Investments back in the '80s, very cutting-edge firm. FTD that set the whole standard for connecting retailers. Again, huge scale play. Can see the data kind of coming out, they way you've been a CIO, CTO. The EVP CIO at The Weather Channel and the weather.com again, first mover, kind of pioneer. And then now the Red Sox, pioneering. So I got to ask you the modernization question. Red Sox certainly have been cutting-edge, certainly under the last few owners, and the previous Henry is a good one, doing more and more, Has the business model of baseball evolved, 'cause you guys a franchise. >> Sure. >> You operate under the franchisor, Major League Baseball, and you have jurisdictions. So has digital blurred the lines between what Advanced Media unit can do. You got communities developing outside. I watch the games in California. I'm not in there but I'm present digitally. >> Sure. Sure. >> So how has the business model flexed with the innovation of baseball? >> That's a great question. So I mean, first off, the relationship between clubs like ours and MLB continue to evolve. We have a new commissioner, relatively new commissioner, and I think the whole one-baseball model that he's been promoting I think has been great. The boundaries sometimes between digital assets and how we innovate and things like that continues to evolve. Major League Baseball and technology groups and product groups that support Major League Baseball have been a fantastic partner of ours. If you look at some of the innovations with Statcast and some of the other types of things that fans are now becoming more familiar with. And when they see how fast a runner goes or how far a home run goes and all those sort of things, these kinds of capabilities are on the surface, but even like mobile applications, to make it easy for fans to come into ballparks and things like that really. What we see is really are platforms for the future touchpoints to all of our customers. But you're right, it gets complicated. Streaming videos and people hadn't thought of before. >> Latin America, huge audience for the Red Sox. Got great players down there. That's outside the jurisdiction, I think, of the franchise agreement, isn't it? (laughs) >> Well, it's complicated. As this past summer, we played two games in England, right? So we enjoy two games in London, sadly we lost to the Yankees in both of those, but amazing experience and Major League Baseball really hats off to those guys, what they did to kind of pull that together. >> You mentioned Statcast. Every year when I meet with Andy Jassy at AWS, he's a sports fan. We love to talk sports. That's a huge, kind of shows the power of data and cloud computing. >> No doubt. >> How do you guys interface with Statcast? Is that an Amazon thing? Do they come to you? Are they leveraging dimensions, camera angles? How does that all work? Are you guys involved in that or? >> Brian: Oh yeah, yeah. >> Is that separate? >> So Statcast is just one of many data feeds as you can imagine. One of the things that Major League Baseball does is all that type of data is readily available to every club. So every club has access to the data. The real competitive differentiator, if you will, is how you use it internally. Like how your analysts can consume that data. We have a baseball system we call Beacon. We retired Carmine, if you're familiar with the old days of Carmine. So we retired Carmine a few years ago with Beacon. And Beacon for us represents sort of our opportunity to effectively collapse all this information into a decision-making environment that allows us to hopefully to kind of make the best decisions to win the most games. >> I love that you're answering all these questions. I really appreciate it. The one I really want to get into is obviously the fan experience. We talked about that. No talent on the field means no World Series so you got to always be constantly replenishing the talent pool, farm system, recruiting, scouting, all these things go on. They're instrumental. Data's a key driver. What new innovations that the casual fan or IT person might be interested in what's going on around scouting and understanding the asset of a human being? >> Right. Sure. I mean some of this gets highly confidential and things, but I think at a macro level, as you start to see both in the minor leagues and in some portions of the major leagues, wearable technologies. I think beyond just sort of player performance information that you would see traditionally with you might associate it with like Billy Beane, and things like that with "Moneyball" which is evolved obviously considerably since those days. I mean understanding sort of player wellness, understanding sort of how to get the most out of a player and understanding sort of, be able to kind of predict potential injuries and accelerate recoveries and being able to use all of this technology where appropriate to really kind of help sort of maximize the value of player performance. I mean, David Ortiz, you know, I don't know where we would have been in 2018 without, you know, David. >> John: Yeah. >> But like, you know >> Longevity of a player. >> Absolutely. >> To when they're in the zone. You wear a ring now to tell you if you're sleeping well. Will managers have a visual, in-the-zone, don't pull 'em out, he can go an extra inning? >> Well, I mean they have a lot of data. We currently don't provide all that data to the clubhouse. I mean, you know, and so If you're in the dugout, that information isn't always readily available type of thing. But players know all this information. We continue to evolve it. At the end of the day though, it's finding the balancing act between data and the aptitudes of our coaching staff and our managers to really make the wise decisions. >> Brian, final question for you. What's the coolest thing you're working on right now? Besides the fan having a great experience, 'cause that's you kind of touched on that. What's the coolest thing that you're excited about that you're working on from a tech perspective that you think is going to be game-changing or interesting? >> I think our cloud strategy coming up in the future. It's still a little bit early stage, but our hope would be to kind of have clarity about that in the next couple months. I think is going to be a game-changer for us. I think having, you know, we enjoy a great relationship with Dell EMC and yet we also do work in the cloud and so being able to leverage the best of both of those to be able to kind of create sort of a compelling experience for both fans, for both player, baseball operations as well as sort of running an efficient business, I think is really what we're all about. >> I mean you guys are the poster child for hybrid cloud because you got core, data center, IoT, and >> No doubt. So it's exciting times. And we're very fortunate that with our relationship organizations like Dell and EMC, we have leading-edge technologies. So we're excited about where that can go and kind of what that can mean. It'll be a big step. >> Okay two personal questions from me as a fan. One is there really a money-counting room like in the movie "The Town"? Where they count a big stack of dollar bills. >> Well, I'm sure there is. I personally haven't visited it. (laughs) I know it's not in the room that they would tell you it is on the movie. (laughter) >> And finally, can The Cube get press passes to cover the games, next to NESN? Talk tech. >> Yeah, we'll see what we can do. >> They can talk baseball. We can talk about bandwidth. Right now, it's the level five conductivity. We're looking good on the pipes. >> Yeah we'll give you a tech tour. And you guys can sort of help us articulate all that to the fans. >> Thank you so much. Brian Shield, Vice President of Technology of the Boston Red Sox. Here talking about security and also the complications and challenges but the mega-opportunities around what digital and fan experiences are with the physical product like baseball, encapsulates kind of the digital revolution that's happening. So keep covering it. Here in Miami, I'm John Furrier. We'll be right back after this short break. (techno music)

(upbeat music) >> We're here theCUBE on Cloud Startup Showcase brought to you by AWS. And right now we're going to explore the next frontier for privacy, you know, security, privacy, and compliance, they're often lumped together and they're often lumped on as an afterthought bolted on to infrastructure, data and applications. But, you know, while they're certainly related they're different disciplines and they require a specific domain knowledge and expertise to really solve the challenges of today. One thing they all share is successful implementations, must be comprehensive and designed in at the start and with me to discuss going beyond compliance and designing privacy protections into products and services. Justin Antonipillai, who is the founder and CEO of WireWheel, Justin awesome having you on the AWS Startup Showcase. Thanks for being here >> Dave, thanks so much for having me. It's a real honor, and I appreciate it. Look forward to the discussion. >> So I always love to ask founders, like, take us back. Why did you start this company? Where did your inspiration come from? >> So Dave, I was very lucky. I had the honor of serving in president Obama's second term as an Acting Under Secretary for Economic Affairs. So I ran the part of the government that includes the U.S. Census Bureau and the Bureau of Economic Analysis. So core economic statistical bureaus. But I helped lead a lot of the Obama administration's, outreach and negotiations on data privacy around the world. Including on something called the EU-U.S. Privacy Shield. So at the time the two jobs I had really aligned with what our discussion is here today. The first part of it was, I could see that all around the world in the U.S. and around the world, data privacy and protecting privacy, had become a human rights issue. It was a trade issue. You could see it as a national security issue and companies all around the world were just struggling with how to get legal, how to make sure that I do it right, and how I make sure that I'm treating my customer's data, in the right way. But when I was also leading the agency, a lot of what we were trying to do was to help our U.S. citizens, our folks here around the country solve big public problems by ethically and responsibly using government data to do it. And I can talk about what that meant in a little while. So the inspiration behind why WireWheel was, we need better more technically driven ways to help companies get compliance, to show their customers that they're protecting privacy and to put customers, our customers onto a path where they can start using the customer data better, faster and stronger, but most importantly, ethically. And that's really what we try to tackle at WireWheel. >> Right, excellent. Thank you for that. I mean, yeah you know, in the early days of social media, people kind of fluffed it off and oh there is no privacy in the internet, blah, blah, blah. And then wow, it became a huge social issue and public policy really needed to step in but also technology needs this to help solve this problem. So let's try to paint a picture for people as to really dig into the problem that you solve and why it's so complicated. We actually have a graphic. It's a map of the U S that we want to pull up here. Explain this. >> Yeah, I mean, what you're saying here is that every one of your, our viewers today is going to be looking at privacy laws moving across the country Dave but there's a lot of different ones. You know, if you're a company that's launching and building your product, that you might be helping your customers your consumer facing. The law, and you're even let's assume you want to do the right thing. You want to treat that customer data responsibly and protect it. When you look at a map like this and you can see three States have already passed different privacy laws, but look at the number of different States all across the country that are considering their own privacy laws. It really could be overwhelming. And Virginia, as you can see is just about to pass it's next privacy law but there's something like 23,24 States that are moving them through. The other thing Dave, that's really important about this is, these are not just breach laws. You know, I think years ago we were all looking at these kinds of laws spreading across the country and you would be saying, okay, that's just a breach law. These laws are very comprehensive. They have a lot to them. So what we have been really helping companies with is to enable you to get compliant with a lot of these very quickly. And that's really what we've tried to take on. Because if you're trying to do the right thing there should be a way to do it. >> Got it. Yeah, I can't even imagine what the it had been so many permutations and complexities but imagine this, if this were a globe we were looking at it says it gets out of control. Okay, now you guys well you use a term called phrase beyond compliance? What do we mean by that? >> There are a couple of things. So I'd say almost every company taking a product to market right now, whether you're B2C or B2B you want to make sure you can answer the customer question and say, yes, I'm compliant. And usually that means if you're a B2C company it means that your customers can come to your site. Your site is compliant with all of the laws out there. You can take consents and preferences. You can get their data back to them. All of these are legal requirements. If you're a B2B company, you're also looking at making sure you can create some critical compliance records that's it, right? But when we think beyond compliance, we think of a couple of basic things. Number one, do you tell the story about all the trust and protection you put around your data in a way that your customers want to do business with you? I mean Dave, if you went to CES the last couple of years and you were walking into the center or looking at a virtual version of it, on every billboard, the top five, top 10 global companies advertise that they take care of your data and they're onto something, they're onto something. You can actually build a winning strategy by solving a customer's problem and also showing them that you care, and that they're trustworthy. Because there are too many products out there, that aren't. The second thing, I'm sorry, go ahead. >> No, please carry on. >> No, I mean the second thing, and then I think I'd say is going beyond compliance also means that you're thinking about how you can use that data for your customer, to solve all of their problems. And Dave, what I'd say here is imagine a world right now, in which, you know you trusted that the data that you gave to companies or to the government, was protected and that if you changed your mind and you wanted it back that they would delete it or give it back to you. Can you imagine how much more quickly we would have solved getting a COVID vaccine? Can you imagine how much data would have been available to pharmaceutical companies to actually develop a vaccine? Can you imagine how much more quickly we would have opened the economy? The thing is companies can't solve every problem that they could for a customer because customers don't trust that the data is going to be used correctly and companies don't know how to use it in that way and ethically. And that's what we're talking about when we say getting beyond compliance which is we want to enable our customers to use the data in the best way and most ethical way to solve all of their customer's problems. >> Okay, so I ask the elephant in the room question. If you asked most businesses about personal information, where it's stored, you know who has access to it, the fact is that most people can't answer it. And so when they're confronted with these uncomfortable questions. The other documents and policies that maybe check some boxes, why is that not a good idea? I mean, there's an expense to going beyond that but so why is that not just a good idea to check it off? >> Well look, a lot of companies do need to just check it off and what I mean, get it right, make sure you label and the way we've thought about this is that when you're building on a backbone like AWS, it does give you the ability to buy a lot of services quickly and scale with your company. But it also gives us an ability to comply faster by leveraging that infrastructure to get compliant faster. So if you think about it, 20 years ago whenever I wanted to buy storage or if I wanted to buy servers and look we're a company that built in the cloud, Dave it would have been very difficult for us to buy the right storage and the processing we needed, given that we were starting. But I was able to buy very small amounts of it until our customer profile grew. But that also means my data moved out of a single hard drive and out of a single set of servers, into other places that are hosted in the cloud. So the entire tech stack that all of our customers are building on means they're distributing personal data into the cloud, into SAS platforms. And there's been a really big move through integration platforms as a service to allow you to spread the personal data quickly. But that same infrastructure can be used to also get you compliant faster, and that's the differentiation. So we built a platform that enables a company to inventory their systems, to track what they're doing in those systems and to both create a compliance record faster by tracking what they're doing inside the cloud and in SAS systems. And that's the different way we've been thinking about it as we've been going to market. >> So, okay. So what actually do you sell, you sell a service? Is it a subscription? >> Yeah. >> And AWS is underneath that, maybe you could put down a picture for us. >> Sure, we're a cloud hosted software as a service. We have two core offerings. One is the WireWheel Trust Access Consent Solution. So if you go to a number of major brands, and you go to their website, when they tell you here's the data we're collecting about you, when they collect your consents and preferences, when they collect a request for data correction or deletion of the data, all the way from the request to delivery back to the consumer, we have an end to end system that our customers use with their customers, a completely cloud hostable in a subscription. So enables even very small startups, to build that experience into their website and into their products, from the very beginning, at a cost efficient point. So if you want to stand up a compliant website or you want to build into your product that Trust Access Consent Solution, we have a SAS platform, and we have developer tools and our developer portal to let you do it quickly. The second thing we do is we have a privacy operations manager. So this is the most security center but for privacy operations. It helps you inventory your systems, actually create data flow maps and most critically create compliance records that you need to comply with, you know the European law, the Brazilian law, and that whole spectrum of U.S. privacy laws that you showed a few minutes ago. And those are the two core offerings we have. >> I love it. I mean, it's the cloud story, right? One is you don't have to spend a millions of dollars on hardware and software. And the second is, when you launch you enable small companies, not just the biggest companies you give them the same, essentially the same services. And that's a great story. Who do you sell to Justin? What does a typical customer engagement look? >> Yeah, we, in many of our customers and in the AWS say startup environment, you often don't have companies that have like a privacy officer. They often don't even have a general counsel. So we sell a package that will often go to whoever is responsible at the company for privacy compliance. And, you know, interestingly Dave in some startups that might be a marketing officer, it might be a CLO, it might be the CTO. So in startups and sort of growing companies, we've put out a lot of guidance, and our core WireWheel developer portal is meant to give even a startup all they need to stand up that experience and get it going, so that when you get that procurement imagine you're about to go sell your product, and they ask you, are you compliant, then you have that document ready to provide. We also do provide this core infrastructure for enormous enterprises. So think telecoms, think top three global technology companies. So Dave, we get excited about is we've built a core software platform privacy infrastructure that is permanently being used by some of the largest companies in the world. And our goal is to get that infrastructure at the right price point into every company in the world, right? We want to enable any company to spend and stand up the right system, that's leveraging that same privacy infrastructure that the big folks have, so that as they scale, they can continue to do the right thing. >> That's awesome. I mean, you mentioned a number of roles of marketing folks. I can even see a sales, let's say sales lead saying, okay we got this deal on the table. How do we get through the procurement because we didn't check the box, all right. So, let me ask you this. We talked a little bit about designing privacy in a and it's clear you help do that. How do you make it, you know fundamental to customer's workloads? Do they have to be like an AWS customer to take advantage of that concept? Or how did they make it part of their workflow? >> Yeah, so there's a couple of critical things. How do you make it part of the workflow? The first thing is, you go to any company's website right now, they have to be compliant with the California law. So a very straightforward thing we do is we can for both B2B and B2C companies stand up an entire customer experience that matches the scale of the company that enables it to be compliant. That means you have a trust center that shows the right information to your customers, it collects the consents, preferences, and it stands up with a portal to request data. These are basics. And for a company that's standing up the internal operations, we can get them app collecting that core record and create a compliance record very fast. With larger companies, Dave you're right. I mean, when you're talking about understanding your entire infrastructure and understanding where you're storing and processing data it could seem overwhelming, but the truth is, the way we onboard our customers is we get you compliance on your product and website first, right? We focus on your product to get that compliance record done. We focus on your website so that you can sell your product. And then we go through the rest of the major systems where you're handling personal information, your sales, your marketing, you know, it's like a natural process. So larger enterprises we have a pretty straightforward way that we get them up and running, but even small startups we can get them to a point of getting them compliant and starting to think about other things very, very quickly. >> And so Justin, you're a government so you understand big, but how I talk about the secret ingredient that allows you to do this at scale and still handle all that diversity, like what we showed in that graphic, the different locations, different local laws, data sovereignty, et cetera. >> Yeah, there's a couple things on the secret source. One is, we have to think about our customers every day. And we had to understand that companies will use whatever their infrastructure is to build. Like you've seen, even on AWS there are so many different services you can use. So number one, we always think with an engineering point of view in mind. Understand the tools, understand the infrastructure in a way that brings that kind of basic visibility to whoever it is that's handling privacy, that basic understanding. The second is, we focused on core user experience for the non-technical user. It's really easy to get started. It's really easy to stand up your privacy page and your privacy policy. It's really easy to collect that and make that first record. The third is, and you know, this is one of those key things. When I was in the government, I met with folks in the intelligence community at one point day, and this always stuck with me. They were telling me that 20 years ago, you know to do the kind of innovation that you have going on now, you would have had to have had a defense contract. You would have had to have invested an enormous amount of money to buy the processing and the services and the team. But the ability for me as a startup founder, to understand the big picture and understand that companies need to be compliant fast, get their website compliant fast, get their product compliant fast, but build on a cloud infrastructure that allowed me to scale was incredible. Because it allows us to do a lot with our customers that a company like ours would have been really challenged to do without that cloud backbone. >> Love this, the agility and the innovation. Last question, give us the company update Justin, you know where are you? What can you share with us, fundraising, head count, are you generating revenue? Where you are? >> Oh yeah, we're excited as I mentioned, we are already the privacy platform of choice of some of the larger brands in the world, which we're very excited about. And we help them solve both the trust, access consent problem for their customers, and we help with the privacy operations management. We recently announced a new $20 million infusion of capital, led by a terrific venture capital fund, ForgePoint Capital. We've been lucky to have been supported by NEA, Sands Capital, Revolution Capital, Pritzker Capital, PSP. And so we have a terrific group of investors behind us. We are scaling, we've grown the company a lot in the last year. Obviously it's been an interesting and challenging year with COVID, but we are really focused on growing our sales team, our marketing team, and we're going to be offering some pretty exciting solutions here for the rest of the year. >> The timing was unbelievable, you had the cloud at your beck and call, you had the experience in government. You've got your background as a lawyer. And it all came in, and the legal come into the forefront of public policy, just a congratulations on all your progress today. We're really looking forward to seeing you guys rocket in the future. I really appreciate you coming on. >> Dave, thanks so much for having me, really enjoyed it. And I look forward to seeing you soon. >> Great, and thank you for watching everyone is Dave Vellante for theCUBE on cloud startups. Keep it right there. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> We're here theCUBE on Cloud Startup Showcase brought to you by AWS. And right now we're going to explore the next frontier for privacy, you know, security, privacy, and compliance, they're often lumped together and they're often lumped on as an afterthought bolted on to infrastructure, data and applications. But, you know, while they're certainly related they're different disciplines and they require a specific domain knowledge and expertise to really solve the challenges of today. One thing they all share is successful implementations, must be comprehensive and designed in at the start and with me to discuss going beyond compliance and designing privacy protections into products and services. Justin Antonipillai, who is the founder and CEO of WireWheel, Justin awesome having you on the AWS Startup Showcase. Thanks for being here >> Dave, thanks so much for having me. It's a real honor, and I appreciate it. Look forward to the discussion. >> So I always love to ask founders, like, take us back. Why did you start this company? Where did your inspiration come from? >> So Dave, I was very lucky. I had the honor of serving in president Obama's second term as an Acting Under Secretary for Economic Affairs. So I ran the part of the government that includes the U.S. Census Bureau and the Bureau of Economic Analysis. So core economic statistical bureaus. But I helped lead a lot of the Obama administration's, outreach and negotiations on data privacy around the world. Including on something called the EU-U.S. Privacy Shield. So at the time the two jobs I had really aligned with what our discussion is here today. The first part of it was, I could see that all around the world in the U.S. and around the world, data privacy and protecting privacy, had become a human rights issue. It was a trade issue. You could see it as a national security issue and companies all around the world were just struggling with how to get legal, how to make sure that I do it right, and how I make sure that I'm treating my customer's data, in the right way. But when I was also leading the agency, a lot of what we were trying to do was to help our U.S. citizens, our folks here around the country solve big public problems by ethically and responsibly using government data to do it. And I can talk about what that meant in a little while. So the inspiration behind why WireWheel was, we need better more technically driven ways to help companies get compliance, to show their customers that they're protecting privacy and to put customers, our customers onto a path where they can start using the customer data better, faster and stronger, but most importantly, ethically. And that's really what we try to tackle at WireWheel. >> Right, excellent. Thank you for that. I mean, yeah you know, in the early days of social media, people kind of fluffed it off and oh there is no privacy in the internet, blah, blah, blah. And then wow, it became a huge social issue and public policy really needed to step in but also technology needs this to help solve this problem. So let's try to paint a picture for people as to really dig into the problem that you solve and why it's so complicated. We actually have a graphic. It's a map of the U S that we want to pull up here. Explain this. >> Yeah, I mean, what you're saying here is that every one of your, our viewers today is going to be looking at privacy laws moving across the country Dave but there's a lot of different ones. You know, if you're a company that's launching and building your product, that you might be helping your customers your consumer facing. The law, and you're even let's assume you want to do the right thing. You want to treat that customer data responsibly and protect it. When you look at a map like this and you can see three States have already passed different privacy laws, but look at the number of different States all across the country that are considering their own privacy laws. It really could be overwhelming. And Virginia, as you can see is just about to pass it's next privacy law but there's something like 23,24 States that are moving them through. The other thing Dave, that's really important about this is, these are not just breach laws. You know, I think years ago we were all looking at these kinds of laws spreading across the country and you would be saying, okay, that's just a breach law. These laws are very comprehensive. They have a lot to them. So what we have been really helping companies with is to enable you to get compliant with a lot of these very quickly. And that's really what we've tried to take on. Because if you're trying to do the right thing there should be a way to do it. >> Got it. Yeah, I can't even imagine what the it had been so many permutations and complexities but imagine this, if this were a globe we were looking at it says it gets out of control. Okay, now you guys well you use a term called phrase beyond compliance? What do we mean by that? >> There are a couple of things. So I'd say almost every company taking a product to market right now, whether you're B2C or B2B you want to make sure you can answer the customer question and say, yes, I'm compliant. And usually that means if you're a B2C company it means that your customers can come to your site. Your site is compliant with all of the laws out there. You can take consents and preferences. You can get their data back to them. All of these are legal requirements. If you're a B2B company, you're also looking at making sure you can create some critical compliance records that's it, right? But when we think beyond compliance, we think of a couple of basic things. Number one, do you tell the story about all the trust and protection you put around your data in a way that your customers want to do business with you? I mean Dave, if you went to CES the last couple of years and you were walking into the center or looking at a virtual version of it, on every billboard, the top five, top 10 global companies advertise that they take care of your data and they're onto something, they're onto something. You can actually build a winning strategy by solving a customer's problem and also showing them that you care, and that they're trustworthy. Because there are too many products out there, that aren't. The second thing, I'm sorry, go ahead. >> No, please carry on. >> No, I mean the second thing, and then I think I'd say is going beyond compliance also means that you're thinking about how you can use that data for your customer, to solve all of their problems. And Dave, what I'd say here is imagine a world right now, in which, you know you trusted that the data that you gave to companies or to the government, was protected and that if you changed your mind and you wanted it back that they would delete it or give it back to you. Can you imagine how much more quickly we would have solved getting a COVID vaccine? Can you imagine how much data would have been available to pharmaceutical companies to actually develop a vaccine? Can you imagine how much more quickly we would have opened the economy? The thing is companies can't solve every problem that they could for a customer because customers don't trust that the data is going to be used correctly and companies don't know how to use it in that way and ethically. And that's what we're talking about when we say getting beyond compliance which is we want to enable our customers to use the data in the best way and most ethical way to solve all of their customer's problems. >> Okay, so I ask the elephant in the room question. If you asked most businesses about personal information, where it's stored, you know who has access to it, the fact is that most people can't answer it. And so when they're confronted with these uncomfortable questions. The other documents and policies that maybe check some boxes, why is that not a good idea? I mean, there's an expense to going beyond that but so why is that not just a good idea to check it off? >> Well look, a lot of companies do need to just check it off and what I mean, get it right, make sure you label and the way we've thought about this is that when you're building on a backbone like AWS, it does give you the ability to buy a lot of services quickly and scale with your company. But it also gives us an ability to comply faster by leveraging that infrastructure to get compliant faster. So if you think about it, 20 years ago whenever I wanted to buy storage or if I wanted to buy servers and look we're a company that built in the cloud, Dave it would have been very difficult for us to buy the right storage and the processing we needed, given that we were starting. But I was able to buy very small amounts of it until our customer profile grew. But that also means my data moved out of a single hard drive and out of a single set of servers, into other places that are hosted in the cloud. So the entire tech stack that all of our customers are building on means they're distributing personal data into the cloud, into SAS platforms. And there's been a really big move through integration platforms as a service to allow you to spread the personal data quickly. But that same infrastructure can be used to also get you compliant faster, and that's the differentiation. So we built a platform that enables a company to inventory their systems, to track what they're doing in those systems and to both create a compliance record faster by tracking what they're doing inside the cloud and in SAS systems. And that's the different way we've been thinking about it as we've been going to market. >> So, okay. So what actually do you sell, you sell a service? Is it a subscription? >> Yeah. >> And AWS is underneath that, maybe you could put down a picture for us. >> Sure, we're a cloud hosted software as a service. We have two core offerings. One is the WireWheel Trust Access Consent Solution. So if you go to a number of major brands, and you go to their website, when they tell you here's the data we're collecting about you, when they collect your consents and preferences, when they collect a request for data correction or deletion of the data, all the way from the request to delivery back to the consumer, we have an end to end system that our customers use with their customers, a completely cloud hostable in a subscription. So enables even very small startups, to build that experience into their website and into their products, from the very beginning, at a cost efficient point. So if you want to stand up a compliant website or you want to build into your product that Trust Access Consent Solution, we have a SAS platform, and we have developer tools and our developer portal to let you do it quickly. The second thing we do is we have a privacy operations manager. So this is the most security center but for privacy operations. It helps you inventory your systems, actually create data flow maps and most critically create compliance records that you need to comply with, you know the European law, the Brazilian law, and that whole spectrum of U.S. privacy laws that you showed a few minutes ago. And those are the two core offerings we have. >> I love it. I mean, it's the cloud story, right? One is you don't have to spend a millions of dollars on hardware and software. And the second is, when you launch you enable small companies, not just the biggest companies you give them the same, essentially the same services. And that's a great story. Who do you sell to Justin? What does a typical customer engagement look? >> Yeah, we, in many of our customers and in the AWS say startup environment, you often don't have companies that have like a privacy officer. They often don't even have a general counsel. So we sell a package that will often go to whoever is responsible at the company for privacy compliance. And, you know, interestingly Dave in some startups that might be a marketing officer, it might be a CLO, it might be the CTO. So in startups and sort of growing companies, we've put out a lot of guidance, and our core WireWheel developer portal is meant to give even a startup all they need to stand up that experience and get it going, so that when you get that procurement imagine you're about to go sell your product, and they ask you, are you compliant, then you have that document ready to provide. We also do provide this core infrastructure for enormous enterprises. So think telecoms, think top three global technology companies. So Dave, we get excited about is we've built a core software platform privacy infrastructure that is permanently being used by some of the largest companies in the world. And our goal is to get that infrastructure at the right price point into every company in the world, right? We want to enable any company to spend and stand up the right system, that's leveraging that same privacy infrastructure that the big folks have, so that as they scale, they can continue to do the right thing. >> That's awesome. I mean, you mentioned a number of roles of marketing folks. I can even see a sales, let's say sales lead saying, okay we got this deal on the table. How do we get through the procurement because we didn't check the box, all right. So, let me ask you this. We talked a little bit about designing privacy in a and it's clear you help do that. How do you make it, you know fundamental to customer's workloads? Do they have to be like an AWS customer to take advantage of that concept? Or how did they make it part of their workflow? >> Yeah, so there's a couple of critical things. How do you make it part of the workflow? The first thing is, you go to any company's website right now, they have to be compliant with the California law. So a very straightforward thing we do is we can for both B2B and B2C companies stand up an entire customer experience that matches the scale of the company that enables it to be compliant. That means you have a trust center that shows the right information to your customers, it collects the consents, preferences, and it stands up with a portal to request data. These are basics. And for a company that's standing up the internal operations, we can get them app collecting that core record and create a compliance record very fast. With larger companies, Dave you're right. I mean, when you're talking about understanding your entire infrastructure and understanding where you're storing and processing data it could seem overwhelming, but the truth is, the way we onboard our customers is we get you compliance on your product and website first, right? We focus on your product to get that compliance record done. We focus on your website so that you can sell your product. And then we go through the rest of the major systems where you're handling personal information, your sales, your marketing, you know, it's like a natural process. So larger enterprises we have a pretty straightforward way that we get them up and running, but even small startups we can get them to a point of getting them compliant and starting to think about other things very, very quickly. >> And so Justin, you're a government so you understand big, but how I talk about the secret ingredient that allows you to do this at scale and still handle all that diversity, like what we showed in that graphic, the different locations, different local laws, data sovereignty, et cetera. >> Yeah, there's a couple things on the secret source. One is, we have to think about our customers every day. And we had to understand that companies will use whatever their infrastructure is to build. Like you've seen, even on AWS there are so many different services you can use. So number one, we always think with an engineering point of view in mind. Understand the tools, understand the infrastructure in a way that brings that kind of basic visibility to whoever it is that's handling privacy, that basic understanding. The second is, we focused on core user experience for the non-technical user. It's really easy to get started. It's really easy to stand up your privacy page and your privacy policy. It's really easy to collect that and make that first record. The third is, and you know, this is one of those key things. When I was in the government, I met with folks in the intelligence community at one point day, and this always stuck with me. They were telling me that 20 years ago, you know to do the kind of innovation that you have going on now, you would have had to have had a defense contract. You would have had to have invested an enormous amount of money to buy the processing and the services and the team. But the ability for me as a startup founder, to understand the big picture and understand that companies need to be compliant fast, get their website compliant fast, get their product compliant fast, but build on a cloud infrastructure that allowed me to scale was incredible. Because it allows us to do a lot with our customers that a company like ours would have been really challenged to do without that cloud backbone. >> Love this, the agility and the innovation. Last question, give us the company update Justin, you know where are you? What can you share with us, fundraising, head count, are you generating revenue? Where you are? >> Oh yeah, we're excited as I mentioned, we are already the privacy platform of choice of some of the larger brands in the world, which we're very excited about. And we help them solve both the trust, access consent problem for their customers, and we help with the privacy operations management. We recently announced a new $20 million infusion of capital, led by a terrific venture capital fund, ForgePoint Capital. We've been lucky to have been supported by NEA, Sands Capital, Revolution Capital, Pritzker Capital, PSP. And so we have a terrific group of investors behind us. We are scaling, we've grown the company a lot in the last year. Obviously it's been an interesting and challenging year with COVID, but we are really focused on growing our sales team, our marketing team, and we're going to be offering some pretty exciting solutions here for the rest of the year. >> The timing was unbelievable, you had the cloud at your beck and call, you had the experience in government. You've got your background as a lawyer. And it all came in, and the legal come into the forefront of public policy, just a congratulations on all your progress today. We're really looking forward to seeing you guys rocket in the future. I really appreciate you coming on. >> Dave, thanks so much for having me, really enjoyed it. And I look forward to seeing you soon. >> Great, and thank you for watching everyone is Dave Vellante for theCUBE on cloud startups. Keep it right there. (upbeat music)

>>thank you. You know, haven't been in technology my entire career. Uh, technology and data has really evolved from being the province of a few and an organization to frankly being critical to everyone's business outcomes. Now, every business leader really needs to embrace data analytics and technology. We've been talking about digital transformation. Probably the last 57 years we've all talked about disruptor be disrupted. At the core of that digital transformation is the use of data, data and analytics that we derive insights from and actually improve our decision making by driving a differentiated experience and capability into market. So Data has involved as being, I would say, almost tactical in some sense over my technology career to really being a strategic asset of what we leverage personally in our own careers, but also what we must leverage as companies to drive a differentiated capability to experience and remain relative in the market today. Mhm. >>No. Yeah, I I agree with Lisa. It has definitely become a the lifeblood of every business, right? It used to be that there were a few companies in the business of technology. Every business is now a technology business. Every business is a data business. It is the way that they go to market, shaped the market and serve their clients. Whether you're in construction, whether you're in retail, whether you're in health care doesn't matter. Right? Data is necessary for every business to survive and thrive. And I remember at the beginning my career It was you know, data was always important, but it waas about storing data. It was about giving people individual reports. It was about supplying that data toe one person or one business unit in silos, and it then evolved right over the course of time into integrating data and to saying, Alright, how does one piece of data correlate to the other? And how can I get insights out of that data now? It's gone to the point of how do I use that data to predict the future? How do I use that data toe automate the future? How do I use that data? Not just for humans to make decisions, but for other machines to make decisions right, which is a big leap, Onda big change and how we use data, how we analyze data and how we use it for insights and evolving our businesses. Yeah. >>Yeah. Well, since I'm on the snowflake board, I'll talk a little bit about the snowflake data cloud. You know, we're getting your company's data out of the silos that exist all over your organization. We're bringing third party data into combined with your own data, and we're wrapping a governance structure around it and feeding it out to your employees so that they can get their jobs done. And it's a simple is that, uh I think we've all seen the pandemic accelerate the digitization of our work. And if you ever doubted that the future of work is here, it is here. And companies are scrambling to catch up by providing the right amount of data, uh, collaboration tools, workflow tools for their workers to get their jobs done. You know, it used to be as prior, people have mentioned that in order thio work with data. You have to be a data scientist. But, you know, I was an auditor back in the day, and we used to work on 16 columns, spreadsheets. And now, if you're an accounting major coming out of college, joining an auditing firm, you have to be checked and data savvy because you're going to be extracting, manipulating, analyzing and auditing data that massive amounts of data that sit in your client's I T systems. I'm on the board of Warby Parker, and you might think that their most valuable asset is their amazing frame collection. But it's actually their data. There are 360 degree view of the customer, and so, if you're a merchant or urine strategy or marketing or talent or the co CEO, you're using data every day in your work. And so I think it's going to become a ubiquitous skill that any anyone who's a knowledge worker has to be able to work with. Data. >>Yeah, absolutely. You know, most enterprises today are, I would say, hybrid multi cloud enterprises. What does that mean? That means that we have data sitting on Prem. We have data sitting in public clouds through software. As a service applications. We have a data everywhere. Most enterprises have data everywhere. Certainly those that have owned infrastructure or weren't born on the web. One of the areas that I love that data cloud is addressing is the area around data portability and mobility because I have data sitting in various locations through my enterprise. How doe I aggregate that data to really drive meaningful insights out of that data to drive better business outcomes and a blue shield of California. One of our key initiatives is what we call an experience cube. What does that mean? It means how doe I drive transparency of data between providers, members and payers so that not only do I reduce overhead on providers and provide them a better experience our hospital systems or doctors, But ultimately, how do we have the member have at their power of their fingertips the value of their data holistically so that we're making better decisions about their health care? You know, one of the things Teresa was talking about was the use of this data, and I would drive to data democratization. We got to put the power of data into the hands of everyone, not just data scientists. Yes, we need those data scientists to help us build a I models to really drive and tackle these tough hold, tougher challenges, business problems that we may have in our environments. But everybody in the company, both on the I T side both on the business side really need to understand. Of how do we become a data insights driven enterprise? Put the power of the data into everyone's hands so that we can accelerate capabilities right and leverage that data toe ultimately drive better business results. So as a leader, as a technology leader, part of our responsibility, our leadership, is to help our companies do that. And that's really one of the exciting things that I'm doing in my role now at Blue Shield of California took, >>oh, great question. And I am so passionate about this for ah, lot of reasons, not the least of which is I have two daughters of my own. Andi, I know how important it is for women and young girls. Toe actually start early in their love for technology and data and all things digital, right? So I think it's one very important to start early start in early education, building confidence of young girls that they can do this showing them role models. You know, we have Deloitte just partnered with L. A B engineer toe actually make comic books centered around young girls and boys in the early elementary age to talk about how heroes and text solve everyday problems on DSO, really helping to get people's minds around Tech is not just in the back office coating on a computer. Tech is about solving problems together. That helped us a citizens as customers, right and as humanity s. So I think that's important. I also think we have to expand that definition of tech. As we just said. It's not just about right database design. It's not just about, you know, Java and python coding. It's about design. It's about the human machine interfaces. It's about how do you use it to solve real problems and getting people to think in that kind of mindset makes it more attractive and exciting. And lastly, I'd say, Look, we have a absolute imperative to get a diverse population of people, not just women but minorities. You know, those with other types of backgrounds, disabilities, etcetera involved because this data is being used to drive decision making, and if we're all involved right and how that data makes decisions, it can lead to unnatural biases that no one intended but can happen just because we haven't involved a diverse enough group of people around it. Absolutely. Lisa. Curious about your thoughts on this? >>I agree with everything that she has said. I've been passionate about this area. I think it starts with First. We need more role models way. Need more role models as women, uh, in these leadership roles throughout various sectors, and it really is. It starts with us and helping to pull other women forward. So I think certainly it's part of my responsibility. I think all of us as female executives that if you have exceeded the table toe leverage that seat at the table to drive change, to bring more women forward, more diversity forward into the board room and into our executive suites. I also want to touch on a point that she had made about women were the largest consumer group in the company. Um, yet we're consumers, but we're not builders. This is why it's so important that we start changing that perception of what tech is, and I agree that it starts with their young girls. We know the data shows that we lose our young girls by middle school. Very heavy peer pressure. It's not so cool to be smart to do robotics or be good in math and science. We start losing our girls in middle school, so they're not prepared when they go to high school. And they're not taking those classes in order to major in these stem fields in college. So we have to start the pipeline early, Um, with our girls. And then I also think it's a measure of what your boards air doing. What is the executive leadership in your goals around diversity and inclusion? How do we invite more diverse population to the decision making table? So it's really a combination of effort. One of the things that certainly is concerning to me is during this pandemic. I think we're losing one in four women in the workforce now because of all the demands that our families are having to navigate through through this pandemic. The last statistic I saw in the last four months is we've lost 850,000 women in the workforce. This pipeline is critical to making that change in these leadership positions. What? Yeah, >>um, I'd encourage you to view to become an active sponsor. Research shows that women and minorities are less likely to be sponsored than white men. Sponsorship is a much more active form than mentorship. Sponsorship involves helping someone identify career opportunities and actively advocating for them in those roles. Opening your network, giving very candid feedback. And we need men to participate to. There are not enough women in tech to pull forward and sponsor the high potential women that are in our pipelines. And so we need you to be part of the solution. >>Let's say Look around your teams, see who's on them and make deliberate decisions about diversifying those teams as positions. Open up. Make sure that you have a diverse set of candidates. Make sure that there are women that are part of that team on DNA. Make sure that you are actually hiring and putting people into positions based on potential, not just experience. >>Wow, it's hard Thio with Nishida and with Tricia shared, I think we're very powerful actions. I think it starts with us, uh, taken action at our own table, making sure you're driving diverse panels and hiring um, setting goals for the company. Having your board engaged in holding us accountable and driving to those goals will help us all see a better outcome with more women at the executive table and diverse populations. >>Yeah, but

>> Hi and welcome to Data Cloud catalyst Women in Tech Round Table Panel discussion. I am so excited to have three fantastic female executives with me today, who have been driving transformations through data throughout their entire career. With me today is Lisa Davis, SVP and CIO OF Blue shield of California. We also have Nishita Henry who is the Chief Innovation Officer at Deloitte and Teresa Briggs who is on a variety of board of directors including our very own Snowflake. Welcome ladies. >> Thank you. >> So I am just going to dive right in, you all have really amazing careers and resumes behind you, am really curious throughout your career, how have you seen the use of data evolve throughout your career and Lisa am going to start with you. >> Thank you, having been in technology my entire career, technology and data has really evolved from being the province of a few in an organization to frankly being critical to everyone's business outcomes. Now every business leader really needs to embrace data analytics and technology. We've been talking about digital transformation, probably the last five, seven years, we've all talked about, disrupt or be disrupted, At the core of that digital transformation is the use of data. Data and analytics that we derive insights from and actually improve our decision making by driving a differentiated experience and capability into market. So data has involved as being I would say almost tactical, in some sense over my technology career to really being a strategic asset of what we leverage personally in our own careers, but also what we must leverage as companies to drive a differentiated capability to experience and remain relative in the market today. >> Nishita curious your take on, how you have seen data evolve? >> Yeah, I agree with Lisa, it has definitely become a the lifeblood of every business, right? It used to be that there were a few companies in the business of technology, every business is now a technology business. Every business is a data business, it is the way that they go to market, shape the market and serve their clients. Whether you're in construction, whether you're in retail, whether you're in healthcare doesn't matter, right? Data is necessary for every business to survive and thrive. And I remember at the beginning of my career, data was always important, but it was about storing data, it was about giving people individual reports, it was about supplying that data to one person or one business unit in silos. And it then evolved right over the course of time into integrating data into saying, alright, how does one piece of data correlate to the other and how can I get insights out of that data? Now, its gone to the point of how do I use that data to predict the future? How do I use that data to automate the future? How do I use that data not just for humans to make decisions, but for other machines to make decisions, right? Which is a big leap and a big change in how we use data, how we analyze data and how we use it for insights and involving our businesses. >> Yeah its really changed so tremendously just in the past five years, its amazing. So Teresa we've talked a lot about the Data Cloud, where do you think we are heading with that and also how can future leaders really guide their careers in data especially in those jobs where we don't traditionally think of them in the data science space? Teresa your thoughts on that. >> Yeah, well since I'm on the Snowflake Board, I'll talk a little bit about the Snowflake Data Cloud, we're getting your company's data out of the silos that exist all over your organization. We're bringing third party data in to combine with your own data and we're wrapping a governance structure around it and feeding it out to your employees so they can get their jobs done, as simple as that. I think we've all seen the pandemic accelerate the digitization of our work. And if you ever doubted that the future of work is here, it is here and companies are scrambling to catch up by providing the right amount of data, collaboration tools, workflow tools for their workers to get their jobs done. Now, it used to be as prior people have mentioned that in order to work with data you had to be a data scientist, but I was an auditor back in the day we used to work on 16 column spreadsheets. And now if you're an accounting major coming out of college joining an auditing firm, you have to be tech and data savvy because you're going to be extracting, manipulating, analyzing and auditing data, that massive amounts of data that sit in your clients IT systems. I'm on the board of Warby Parker, and you might think that their most valuable asset is their amazing frame collection, but it's actually their data, their 360 degree view of the customer. And so if you're a merchant, or you're in strategy, or marketing or talent or the Co-CEO, you're using data every day in your work. And so I think it's going to become a ubiquitous skill that any anyone who's a knowledge worker has to be able to work with data. >> Yeah I think its just going to be organic to every role going forward in the industry. So, Lisa curious about your thoughts about Data Cloud, the future of it and how people can really leverage it in their jobs for future leaders. >> Yeah, absolutely most enterprises today are, I would say, hybrid multicloud enterprises. What does that mean? That means that we have data sitting on-prem, we have data sitting in public clouds through software as a service applications. We have a data everywhere. Most enterprises have data everywhere, certainly those that have owned infrastructure or weren't born on the web. One of the areas that I love that Data Cloud is addressing is area around data portability and mobility. Because I have data sitting in various locations through my enterprise, how do I aggregate that data to really drive meaningful insights out of that data to drive better business outcomes? And at Blue Shield of California, one of our key initiatives is what we call an Experienced Cube. What does that mean? That means how do I drive transparency of data between providers, members and payers? So that not only do I reduce overhead on providers and provide them a better experience, our hospital systems are doctors, but ultimately, how do we have the member have it their power of their fingertips the value of their data holistically, so that we're making better decisions about their health care. One of the things Teresa was talking about, was the use of this data and I would drive to data democratization. We got to put the power of data into the hands of everyone, not just data scientists, yes we need those data scientists to help us build AI models to really drive and tackle these tough old, tougher challenges and business problems that we may have in our environments. But everybody in the company both on the IT side, both on the business side, really need to understand of how do we become a data insights driven enterprise, put the power of the data into everyone's hands so that we can accelerate capabilities, right? And leverage that data to ultimately drive better business results. So as a leader, as a technology leader, part of our responsibility, our leadership is to help our companies do that. And that's really one of the exciting things that I'm doing in my role now at Blue Shield of California. >> Yeah its really, really exciting time. I want to shift gears a little bit and focus on women in Tech. So I think in the past five to ten years there has been a lot of headway in this space but the truth is women are still under represented in the tech space. So what can we do to attract more women into technology quite honestly. So Nishita curious what your thoughts are on that? >> Great question and I am so passionate about this for a lot of reasons, not the least of which is I have two daughters of my own and I know how important it is for women and young girls to actually start early in their love for technology and data and all things digital, right? So I think it's one very important to start early started early education, building confidence of young girls that they can do this, showing them role models. We at Deloitte just partnered with LV Engineer to actually make comic books centered around young girls and boys in the early elementary age to talk about how heroes in tech solve everyday problems. And so really helping to get people's minds around tech is not just in the back office coding on a computer, tech is about solving problems together that help us as citizens, as customers, right? And as humanity, so I think that's important. I also think we have to expand that definition of tech, as we just said it's not just about right, database design, It's not just about Java and Python coding, it's about design, it's about the human machine interfaces, it's about how do you use it to solve real problems and getting people to think in that kind of mindset makes it more attractive and exciting. And lastly, I'd say look we have a absolute imperative to get a diverse population of people, not just women, but minorities, those with other types of backgrounds, disabilities, et cetera involved because this data is being used to drive decision making in all involved, right, and how that data makes decisions, it can lead to unnatural biases that no one intended but can happen just 'cause we haven't involved a diverse enough group of people around it. >> Absolutely, lisa curious about your thoughts on this. >> I agree with everything Nishita said, I've been passionate about this area, I think it starts with first we need more role models, we need more role models as women in these leadership roles throughout various sectors. And it really is it starts with us and helping to pull other women forward. So I think certainly it's part of my responsibility, I think all of us as female executives that if you have a seat at the table to leverage that seat at the table to drive change, to bring more women forward more diversity forward into the boardroom and into our executive suites. I also want to touch on a point Nishita made about women we're the largest consumer group in the company yet we're consumers but we're not builders. This is why it's so important that we start changing that perception of what tech is and I agree that it starts with our young girls, we know the data shows that we lose our like young girls by middle school, very heavy peer pressure, it's not so cool to be smart, or do robotics, or be good at math and science, we start losing our girls in middle school. So they're not prepared when they go to high school, and they're not taking those classes in order to major in these STEM fields in college. So we have to start the pipeline early with our girls. And then I also think it's a measure of what your boards are doing, what is the executive leadership in your goals around diversity and inclusion? How do we invite more diverse population to the decision making table? So it's really a combination of efforts. One of the things that certainly is concerning to me is during this pandemic, I think we're losing one in four women in the workforce now because of all the demands that our families are having to navigate through this pandemic. The last statistic I saw in the last four months is we've lost 850,000 women in the workforce. This pipeline is critical to making that change in these leadership positions. >> Yeah its really a critical time and now we are coming to the end of this conversation I want to ask you Teresa what would be a call to action to everyone listening both men and women since its to be solved by everyone to address the gender gap in the industry? >> I'd encourage each of you to become an active sponsor. Research shows that women and minorities are less likely to be sponsored than white men. Sponsorship is a much more active form than mentorship. Sponsorship involves helping someone identify career opportunities and actively advocating for them and those roles opening your network, giving very candid feedback. And we need men to participate too, there are not enough women in tech to pull forward and sponsor the high potential women that are in our pipelines. And so we need you to be part of the solution. >> Nishita real quickly what would be your call to action to everyone? >> I'd say look around your teams, see who's on them and make deliberate decisions about diversifying those teams, as positions open up, make sure that you have a diverse set of candidates, make sure that there are women that are part to that team and make sure that you are actually hiring and putting people into positions based on potential not just experience. >> And real quickly Lisa, we'll close it out with you what would your call to action be? >> Wow, it's hard to what Nishita and what Tricia shared I think we're very powerful actions. I think it starts with us. Taking action at our own table, making sure you're driving diverse panels and hiring setting goals for the company, having your board engaged and holding us accountable and driving to those goals will help us all see a better outcome with more women at the executive table and diverse populations. >> Great advice and great action for all of us to take. Thank you all so much for spending time with me today and talking about this really important issue, I really appreciate it. Stay with us.

>> Hi, and welcome to Data Cloud Catalyst, Women in Tech Round Table Panel Discussion. I am so excited to have three fantastic female executives with me today who have been driving transformation through data throughout their entire career. With me today is Lisa Davis, SVP and CIO of Blue Shield of California. We also have Nishita Henry, who is the Chief Innovation Officer at Deloitte and Theresa Briggs, who is on a variety of board of directors, including our own very own Snowflake. Welcome, ladies. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> So I'm just going to dive right in. You all have really amazing careers and resumes behind you. I'm really curious, throughout your career, how have you seen the use of data evolve throughout your career? And, Lisa, I'm going to start with you. >> Thank you. Having been in technology my entire career, technology and data has really evolved from being the province of a few in an organization to frankly being critical to everyone's business outcomes. Now every business leader really needs to embrace data analytics and technology. We've been talking about digital transformation probably the last five, seven years, we've all talked about disrupt or be disrupted. At the core of that digital transformation is the use of data. Data and analytics that we derive insights from and actually improve our decision making by driving a differentiated experience and capability into market. So data has involved as being, I would say, almost tactical in some sense over my technology career, to really being a strategic asset of what we leverage personally in our own careers, but also what we must leverage as companies to drive a differentiated capability to experience and remain relative in the market today. >> Nishita, curious your take on how you've seen data evolve? >> Yeah, I agree with Lisa. It has definitely become the lifeblood of every business, right? It used to be that there were a few companies in the business of technology, every business is now a technology business. Every business is a data business. It is the way that they go to market, shape the market and serve their clients. Whether you're in construction, whether you're in retail, whether you're in healthcare it doesn't matter, right? Data is necessary for every business to survive and thrive. And I remember at the beginning of my career, data was always important but it was about storing data. It was about giving people individual reports, it was about supplying that data to one person or one business unit in silos. And it then evolved right over the course of time into integrating data and to saying, all right, how does one piece of data correlate to the other and how can I get insights out of that data? Now, let's go on to the point of how do I use that data to predict the future? How do I use that data to automate the future? How do I use that data not just for humans to make decisions, but for other machines to make decisions, right? Which is a big leap. And a big change in how we use data, how we analyze data and how we use it for insights in evolving our businesses. >> Yeah, it's really changed so tremendously just in the past five years. It's amazing. So Teresa, we've talked a lot about the Data Cloud, where do you think we're heading with that? And also, how can future leaders really guide their careers in data, especially in those jobs where we don't traditionally think of them in the data science space? Curious your thoughts on that? >> Yeah, well, since I'm on the Snowflake board, I'll talk a little bit about the Snowflake Data Cloud. Now we're getting your company's data out of the silos that exists all over your organization, we're bringing third party data in to combine with your own data, and we're wrapping a governance structure around it and feeding it out to your employees so that they can get their jobs done. And is as simple as that. I think we've all seen the pandemic accelerate the digitization of our work. And if you ever doubted the future of work is here, it is here. And companies are scrambling to catch up by providing the right amount of data, collaboration tools, workflow tools for their workers to get their jobs done. Now, it used to be as prior people have mentioned that in order to work with data you had to be a data scientist. But I was an auditor back in the day and we used to work on 16 columns spreadsheet. And now if you're an accounting major coming out of college joining an auditing firm, you have to be tech and data savvy because you're going to be extracting, manipulating, analyzing and auditing data, that massive amounts of data that sit in your client's IT systems. I'm on the board of Warby Parker, and you might think that their most valuable asset is their amazing frame collection, but it's actually their data, their 360 degree view of the customer. And so if you're a merchant or you're in strategy, or marketing or talent or the co-CEO, you're using data every day in your work. And so I think it's going to become a ubiquitous skill that anyone who's a knowledge worker has to be able to work with data. >> Yeah, I think it's just going to be organic to every role going forward in the industry. So Lisa, curious about your thoughts about Data Cloud, the future of it, and how people can really leverage it in their jobs from future leaders? >> Yeah, absolutely. Most enterprises today are, I would say, hybrid multi cloud enterprises. What does that mean? That means that we have data sitting on prem, we have data sitting in public clouds through software as a service applications, we have a data everywhere, most enterprises have data everywhere. Certainly those that have owned infrastructure or weren't born on the web. One of the areas that I love that Data Cloud is addressing is the area around data portability and mobility. Because I have data sitting in various locations through my enterprise, how do I aggregate that data to really drive meaningful insights out of that data to drive better business outcomes? And at Blue Shield of California, one of our key initiatives is what we call an experienced cube. What does that mean? It means how do I drive transparency of data between providers, members and payers? So that not only do I reduce overhead on providers and provide them a better experience, or hospital systems or doctors, but ultimately, how do we have the member have it their power of their fingertips the value of their data holistically, so that we're making better decisions about their health care? One of the things Teresa was talking about was the use of this data, and I would drive to data democratization. We got to put the power of data into the hands of everyone, not just data scientists. Yes, we need those data scientists to help us build AI models to really drive and tackle these tougher challenges and business problems that we may have in our environments. But everybody in the company, both on the IT side, both on the business side, really need to understand of how do we become a data insights driven enterprise. Put the power of the data into everyone's hands so that we can accelerate capabilities, right? And leverage that data to ultimately drive better business results. So as a leader, as a technology leader, part of our responsibility, our leadership is to help our companies do that. And that's really one of the exciting things that I'm doing in my role now at Blue Shield of California. >> Yeah, it's really, really exciting time. I want to shift gears a little bit and focus on women in tech. So I think in the past five to 10 years, there has been a lot of headway in this space. But the truth is women are still underrepresented in the tech space. So what can we do to attract more women into technology quite honestly. So Nishita, curious, what your thoughts are on that? >> Great question. And I am so passionate about this for a lot of reasons, not the least of which is I have two daughters of my own. And I know how important it is for women and young girls to actually start early in their love for technology, and data and all things digital, right? So I think it's one very important to start early, start an early education, building confidence of young girls that they can do this, showing them role models. We at Deloitte just partnered with Ella the Engineer to actually make comic books centered around young girls and boys in the early elementary age to talk about how heroes and tech solve everyday problems. And so really helping to get people's minds around tech is not just in the back office coding on a computer, tech is about solving problems together that help us as citizens, as customers, right? And as humanity. So I think that's important. I also think we have to expand that definition of tech, as we just said. It's not just about, right? Database design. It's not just about Java and Python coding, it's about design. It's about the human machine interfaces. It's about how do you use it to solve real problems and getting people to think in that kind of mindset makes it more attractive and exciting. And lastly, I'd say look, we have absolute imperative to get a diverse population of people, not just women, but minorities, those with other types of backgrounds, disabilities, etc involved. Because this data is being used to drive decision making, and if we are not all involved, right? In how that data makes decisions, it can lead to unnatural biases that no one intended but can happen just 'cause we haven't involved a diverse enough group of people around it. >> Absolutely. Lisa, curious about your thoughts on this. >> I agree with everything Nishita said. I've been passionate about this area, I think it starts with first we need more role models. We need more role models as women in these leadership roles throughout various sectors. And it really is it starts with us and helping to pull other women forward. So I think certainly, it's part of my responsibility, I think all of us as female executives that if you have a seat at the table to leverage that seat at the table to drive change, to bring more women forward, more diversity forward into the boardroom and into our executive suites. I also want to touch on a point Nishita made about women, we're the largest consumer group in the company yet we're consumers, but we're not builders. This is why it's so important that we start changing that perception of what tech is. And I agree that it starts with our young girls. We know the data shows that we lose our young girls by middle school. Very heavy peer pressure, it's not so cool to be smart, or do robotics, or be good at math and science. We start losing our girls in middle school. So they're not prepared when they go to high school and they're not taking those classes in order to major in the STEM fields in college. So we have to start the pipeline early with our girls. And then I also think it's a measure of what your boards are doing. What is the executive leadership and your goals around diversity and inclusion? How do we invite more diverse population to the decision making table? So it's really a combination of efforts. One of the things that certainly is concerning to me is during this pandemic, I think we're losing one in four women in the workforce now, because of all the demands that our families are having to navigate through this pandemic. The last statistic I saw in the last four months is we've lost 850,000 women in the workforce. This pipeline is critical to making that change in these leadership positions. >> Yeah, it's really a critical time. And now we're coming to the end of this conversation, I want to ask you Teresa, what would be a call to action to everyone listening, both men and women since its needs to be solved by everyone, to address the gender gap in the industry? >> I'd encourage each of you to become an active sponsor. Research shows that women and minorities are less likely to be sponsored than white men. Sponsorship is a much more active form than mentorship. Sponsorship involves helping someone identify career opportunities and actively advocating for them in those roles, opening your network, giving very candid feedback. And we need men to participate too. There are not enough women in tech to pull forward and sponsor the high potential women that are in our pipelines. And so we need you to be part of the solution. >> Nishita real quickly, what would be your call to action to everyone? >> I'd say look around your teams, see who's on them and make deliberate decisions about diversifying those teams. As positions open up, make sure that you have a diverse set of candidates, and make sure that there are women that are part of that team. And make sure that you are actually hiring and putting people into positions based on potential not just experience. >> And real quickly Lisa, will close it out with you, what would your call to action be? >> Well, it's hard to... What Nishita and what Teresa shared I think were very powerful actions. I think it starts with us. Taking action at our own table, making sure you're driving diverse panels and hiring, setting goals for the company. Having your board engaged and holding us accountable and driving to those goals, will help us all see a better outcome but with more women at the executive table and diverse populations. >> Great advice and great action for all of us to take. Thank you all so much for spending time with me today and talking about this really important issue. I really appreciate it. Stay with us.

>> Hi, and welcome to data cloud catalyst women in tech round table panel discussion. I am so excited to have three fantastic female executives with me today who have been driving transformation through data throughout their entire career. With me today is Lisa Davis SVP and CIO of Blue Shield of California. We also have Nishita Henry who is the chief innovation officer at Deloitte and Teresa Briggs, who is on a variety of board of directors, including our very own Snowflake. Welcome, ladies. >> Thank you. So I'm just going to dive right in. You all have really amazing careers and resumes behind you. I'm really curious, throughout your career, how have you seen the use of data evolve throughout your career? And Lisa, I'm going to start with you. >> Thank you. Having been in technology my entire career, technology and data has really evolved from being the province of a few in an organization to frankly being critical to everyone's business outcomes. But now every business leader really needs to embrace data analytics and technology. We've been talking about digital transformation probably the last five, seven years. We've all talked about disrupt or be disrupted. At the core of that digital transformation is the use of data, data, and analytics that we derive insights from and actually improve our decision-making by driving a differentiated experience and capability into market. So data has involved as being, I would say, almost tactical in some sense over my technology career to really being a strategic asset of what we leveraged personally in our own careers, but also what we must leverage as companies to drive a differentiated capability to experience and remain relative in the market today. >> Nishita curious your take on, how you've seen data evolve? >> Yeah, I agree with Lisa, it has definitely become the lifeblood of every business, right? It used to be that there were a few companies in the business of technology. Every business is now a technology business. Every business is a data business. It is the way that they go to market, shape the market and serve their clients. Whether you're in construction, whether you're in retail, whether you're in healthcare doesn't matter, right? Data is necessary for every business to survive and thrive. And I remember at the beginning of my career, data was always important, but it was about storing data. It was about giving people individual reports. It was about supplying that data to one person or one business unit in silos. And it then evolved right over the course of time and to integrating data and to saying, all right, how does one piece of data correlate to the other? And how can I get insights out of that data? Now let's go on to the point of how do I use that data to predict the future? How do I use that data to automate the future? How do I use that data not just for humans to make decisions but for other machines to make decisions, right? Which is a big leap and a big change in how we use data, how we analyze data and how we use it for insights and evolving our businesses. >> Yeah. It's really changed so tremendously, just in the past five years, it's amazing. So Teresa, we've talked a lot about the data cloud, where do you think we're heading with that? And also how can future leaders really guide their careers in data, especially in those jobs where we don't traditionally think of them in the data science space, curious your thoughts on that. >> Yeah. Well, since I'm on the Snowflake board, I'll talk a little bit about the Snowflake data cloud that we're getting your company's data out of the silos that exist all over your organization. We're bringing third party data in to combine with your own data and we're wrapping a governance structure around it and feeding it out to your employees so that they can get their jobs done. And it's as simple as that, I think we've all seen the pandemic accelerated the digitization of our work. And if you ever doubted that the future of work is here, it is here. And companies are scrambling to catch up by providing the right amount of data, collaboration tools, workflow tools for their workers to get their jobs done. Now it used to be, as prior, people have mentioned that in order to work with data, you had to be a data scientist. But I was an auditor back in the day and we used to work on 16 columns spreadsheet. And now if you're an accounting major coming out of college, joining an auditing firm, you have to be tech and data savvy because you're going to be extracting, manipulating, analyzing, and auditing data. That massive amounts of data that sit in your client's IT systems. I'm on the board of Warby Parker. And you might think that their most valuable asset is their amazing frame collection but it's actually their data. There are 360 degree view of the customer. And so if you're a merchant or you're in strategy or marketing or talent or the co-CEO, you're using data every day in your work. And so I think it's going to become a ubiquitous skill that any anyone who's a knowledge worker has to be able to work with data. >> Now, I think it's just going to be organic to every role going forward in the industry. >> So Lisa curious about your thoughts about data cloud, the future of it, and how people can really leverage it in their jobs from future leaders. >> Yeah, absolutely. Most enterprises today are, I would say, hybrid multi-cloud enterprises. What does that mean? That means that we have data sitting on prem. We have data sitting in public clouds through software, as a service applications. We have a data everywhere. Most enterprises have data everywhere. Certainly those that have owned infrastructure or weren't born on the web. One of the areas that I'd love that data cloud is addressing is the area around data portability and mobility. Because I have data sitting in various locations through my enterprise, how do I aggregate that data to really drive meaningful insights out of that data to drive better business outcomes. And at Blue Shield of California, one of our key initiatives is what we call an experience cube. What does that mean? It means how do I drive transparency of data between providers and members and payers so that not only do I reduce overhead on providers and provide them a better experience or hospital systems or doctors, but ultimately how do we have the member have at their power of their fingertips the value of their data holistically so that we're making better decisions about their healthcare? One of the things Teresa was talking about was the use of this data. And I would drive to data democratization. We got to put the power of data into the hands of everyone, not just data scientists. Yes, we need those data scientists to help us build AI models to really drive and tackle these tougher challenges and business problems that we may have in our environments. But everybody in the company, both on the IT side, both on the business side, really need to understand of how do we become a data insights driven enterprise, put the power of the data into everyone's hands so that we can accelerate capabilities, right? And leverage that data to ultimately drive better business results. So as a leader, as a technology leader, part of our responsibility, our leadership is to help our companies do that. And that's really one of the exciting things that I'm doing in my role now at Blue Shield of California. >> Yeah. It's really, really exciting time. I want to shift gears a little bit and focus on women in tech. So I think in the past 5 to 10 years there has been a lot of headway in this space but the truth is women are still underrepresented in the tech space. So what can we do to attract more women into technology? Quite honestly. So Nishita curious what your thoughts are on that? >> Great question. And I am so passionate about this for a lot of reasons, not the least of which is I have two daughters of my own and I know how important it is for women and young girls to actually start early in their love for technology and data and all things digital, right? So I think it's one very important to start early, starting early education, building confidence of young girls that they can do this, showing them role models. We at Deloitte just partnered with LOV engineer to actually make comic books centered around young girls and boys in the early elementary age to talk about how heroes in techs solve everyday problems. And so really helping to get people's minds around tech is not just in the back office, coding on a computer, tech is about solving problems together that help us as citizens as customers, right? And as humanity. So I think that's important. I also think we have to expand that definition of tech as we just said, it's not just about database design. It's not just about Java and Python coding. It's about design, it's about the human machine interfaces. It's about how do you use it to solve real problems and getting people to think in that kind of mindset makes it more attractive and exciting. And lastly, I'd say, look we have a absolute imperative to get a diverse population of people, not just women but minorities, those with other types of backgrounds, disabilities, et cetera, involved because this data is being used to drive decision-making, and if we're all involved and how that data makes decisions, it can lead to unnatural biases that no one intended but can happen just 'cause we haven't involved a diverse enough group of people around it. >> Absolutely. Lisa, I'm curious about your thoughts on this. >> Oh, I agree with everything Nishita said. I've been passionate about this area. I think it starts with first, we need more role models. We need more role models as women in these leadership roles throughout various sectors. And it really is, it starts with us and helping to pull other women forward. So I think it certainly it's part of my responsibility. I think all of us as female executives that if you have a seat at the table to leverage that seat at the table to drive change to bring more women forward, more diversity forward into the boardroom and into our executive suites. I also want to touch on a point Nishita made about women. We're the largest consumer group in the company yet we're consumers, but we're not builders. This is why it's so important that we start changing that perception of what tech is. And I agree that it starts with our young girls. We know the data shows that we lose our young girls by middle school, very heavy peer pressure. It's not so cool to be smart or do robotics or be good at math and science. We start losing our girls in middle school. So they're not prepared when they go to high school and they're not taking those classes in order to major in these STEM fields in college. So we have to start the pipeline early with our girls. And then I also think it's a measure of what your boards are doing. What is the executive leadership and your goals around diversity and inclusion? How do we invite more diverse population to the decision-making table? So it's really a combination of efforts. One of the things that certainly is concerning to me is during this pandemic, I think we're losing one in four women in the workforce now because of all the demands that our families are having to navigate through this pandemic. The last statistic I saw in the last four months is we've lost 850,000 women in the workforce. This pipeline is critical to making that change in these leadership positions. >> Yeah, it's really a critical time. And now we're coming to the end of this conversation. I want to ask you Teresa, what would be a call to action to everyone listening, both men and women since it needs to be solved by everyone to address the gender gap in the industry. >> I'd encourage to you to become an active sponsor. Research shows that women and minorities are less likely to be sponsored than white men. Sponsorship is a much more active form than mentorship. Sponsorship involves helping someone identify career opportunities and actively advocating for them in those roles, opening your network, giving very candid feedback. And we need men to participate too. There are not enough women in tech to pull forward and sponsor the high potential women that are in our pipelines. And so we need you to be part of the solution. >> Nishita, real quickly, what would be your call to action to everyone? >> I'd say, look around your teams, see who's on them and make deliberate decisions about diversifying those teams, as positions open up, make sure that you have a diverse set of candidates. Make sure that there are women that are part of that team and make sure that you are actually hiring and putting people into positions based on potential, not just experience. >> And real quickly, Lisa, we'll close it out with you. What would your call to action be? >> Well, it's hard to, but Nishita and what Teresa shared, I think were very powerful actions. I think it starts with us taking action at our own table, making sure you're driving diverse panels and hiring, setting goals for the company, having your board engaged and holding us accountable and driving to those goals will help us all see a better outcome with more women at the executive table and diverse populations. >> So I want to talk to you all about a pivotal moment in your career. It could have been a mentorship. It could have been maybe a setback in your career or maybe a time that you really took a risk and it paid off big, something that really helped define your career going forward. Curious what those moments were for you all in your career. Teresa, we'll start with you. >> Sure. I had a great sponsor and he was a white male by the way. He identified some potential in me when I was early in my career about five years in and he really helped pave the way for a number of decisions I made along the way to take different roles in the firm. I was at Deloitte, he's still in my life today. We get together a couple of times a year. And even though we're both retired from Deloitte, we still have that relationship and what that tell me was how to be a great sponsor. And so one of the most satisfying things I did in my career was when I finally got to the place where I was no longer reaching for the next rank of the ladder for myself, I got to turn around and pull through all of these amazing future leaders into roles that were going to help them accelerate their careers. >> What about you, Lisa? >> I think there's been many of those moments. One I'll speak about is having spin 20, 25 years in technology, I had spent my first career in department of defense, moved over to academia and then went to a high-tech firm on their IT side, really in hopes of getting the CIO role having been a CIO, I did not get the CIO role, and really had a decision to make. One of the opportunities that was presented to me was to move to the business side to run a $9 billion P&L on one of the core business units within the company. And of course, I was terrified. It was a very risky decision having never run a P&L before and not starting small going right to the billion dollar mark in terms of (laughs) what that would look like. And frankly decided to seize that opportunity and I've certainly learned in my career that those opportunities that really push you out of your comfort zone that take you down a really completely different path or where the greatest opportunities for growth and learning occur. So I did that role for three and a half years before coming into my current role back to a CIO role at Blue Shield of California in healthcare, and just a tremendous amount of learning, having been on the business side and managing a P&L that I now apply to how I engage with my partners at Blue Shield. >> I couldn't agree more. I think forcing yourself out of that comfort zone is so critical for learning and driving your career for sure. Nishita, what about you? >> Yeah, I agree. Lots of pivotal moments, but I'll talk about one very early in my career, actually was an intern and one of my responsibilities was to help research back then facial recognition technology. And I had to go out there and evaluate vendors and take meetings with vendors and figure out, all right, which ones do we want to actually test? And I remember I was leading a meeting, two of my kind of supervisors were with us. And I know I went through the list of questions and then the meeting kind of ended. And I didn't speak up at that point in time to kind of say here are the next steps or here's what I recommend. I kind of looked at my supervisors to do that. Just assuming they should be wrapping it up and they should be the ones to make a final decision or choice. And after that meeting, he came to me and he's like you know Nishita you did a really nice job in bringing these technologies forward but I wish you would have spoken up because you're the one who've done the most research. And you're the one who has the most background on what we should do next. Next time don't stand by and let someone else be your voice. And it was so powerful for me and I realized, wow, I should have more confidence in myself to be able to actually use my voice and do what I was asked to do versus leave it to someone else because I assumed that I was too junior or I assumed I didn't have enough experience. So that was really pivotal for me early in my career to learn how to use my voice. >> I'm really curious for you, Nishita. What drew you to the industry of data? What was something when you were young that drew you into that space? >> Yeah. So my background is actually in engineering and it's actually funny. It's an electrical engineering and I probably couldn't do another thermal dynamics equation to save my life anymore (laughs). But what drew me to technology was problem solving, right? It was all about how do I take a bunch of data and information and create a new solution, right? Whether it was, how do I create a device? I remember in college, right? Creating a device to go down stadium steps and clean, right? How do I take data for how this machine will interact with the environment in order to create it? So I always viewed it as problem solving and that's what has always attracted me into the field. >> That's great. So, Teresa, I'm curious, at what point did you feel that you really found your voice in your career, in yourself as a part of your professional life? >> Yeah. About 12 years into my career I started working as an M&A partner and I was working with a private equity firm along with their lawyers and other advisors, bankers and so forth. And what I realized in that situation was that I was the expert in what I did. And so, I mean, I found my voice before that in many other ways but that was sort of a moment where I felt like, "I'm here to deliver an expertise to this group of people. And none of them have the expertise that I have. And so I need to just stand firm in my shoes and deliver that expertise with confidence." So that was my example. >> That's great. Well, Lisa, what about you? What was that moment that you felt that you just found your voice kind of in your groove and that confidence kicked in? >> No, I don't know if it was exactly a moment but it was certainly a realization. Right out of college, I was working for the federal government in department of defense and certainly male dominated. And through that realized that to be heard, I had to become very good at what I do. So I built that confidence, frankly, by delivering results and capability and becoming an expert in the work, essentially the services that I provide. And when you become very good at what you do, regardless of what you look like, then people will start to listen. So I think it starts with delivering results. I think you have to build your confidence and through that you find to use your voice so that you are being heard, having worked in department of defense and academia and high tech, I've had to leverage that throughout my entire career ultimately for my voice to be heard, and to be represented within the roles that I was playing. >> That's great. I know one of the things that we've also talked about is just the value, the business value, the importance of having a diverse workforce and a diverse team and the value that that brings to the outcomes. What are some of your strategies to create those types of teams? What, as leaders in your company, you manage a team and what is your advice to them, your strategies to get a diverse pool of candidates and a diverse team. Nishita, what about you? >> I think it's looking beyond what the individual role is, right? So a lot of times we have a role description and you want these certain skills and so (indistinct), or you get a certain set of candidates. I think it's taking a step back and saying, "What are the objectives of my team? What am I trying to accomplish? What types of business acumen do I need on that team? What types of tech acumen, what types of personalities? Do I want people who know how to work with others and therefore bring them together? Do I need people who are also drivers and know how to get things done, right?" It's finding the right chemistry. We have a business chemistry, talk track around. We don't need all different kinds to make a really good team. So I think it's taking a step back and understanding what you need the makeup of your team to be, understanding the hard skills and the soft skills. And then thinking about what are all the sources you could really go to for them and being a little bit non-traditional and saying, "Do I need a full-time person all the time to do this job that's sitting here? Can I be more diverse in finding people from the crowd? Can I have part-time resources? Can I use different pieces and parts of the ecosystem to actually bring together the full team that represents the diversity?" It's just expanding our mind and stop thinking about a role to person, start thinking about it as the makeup of a team, to the outcome you desire. >> It's really about being creative and just thinking in new ways. Teresa, I'm super curious, since you sit on a bunch of different boards, what kind of strategies do you see companies taking to attract different talent? >> So I can address that from the board lens, for sure. And boards are probably one of the least diverse bodies in business right now, but that is changing, and for the better, obviously they were traditionally kind of white male dominated. And then we've had this wave of women joining boards. And now we're starting to see a wave of diverse individuals join boards. And with each person who's diverse that joins a board that I'm on, the dynamic of the discussion changes because they bring a different perspective. They bring a different way of thinking. They came from a different background or a different functional skillset or a different geography or you name, whatever element of diversity you want to see. We just added the head of Apple music to the service in our board. And so you might scratch your head and say, "Wow, the head of Apple music and an enterprise software company that is a B2B software company." But he thinks deeply about how the end user consumes in his case content and in our case software. And so he's able to bring just a completely different perspective to the discussion we have at the board table. And I think at the end of the day, that's what diversity is all about, is improving the outcome of whatever it is. If you're producing something or making important decisions like we do in board rooms. >> That's amazing. Lisa, real quickly, what are some of your strategies? >> Yeah. Well, we know diverse teams actually produce better business results. So there's no reason, there's absolutely no reason why we shouldn't think in that lens. I think it starts with our hiring and the makeup of our teams. I think it requires more than creativity though. You have to be very purposeful. I'm in the process of hiring four leadership positions on my team. And it's really to me, almost like a puzzle piece of diverse perspectives and knowledge and capabilities that come together that ultimately create a high performing team. But I can't tell you how many times I got to go back to HR and say, "I need to see more diverse talent. Are there any more women in the pool?" One of the things we've struggled, we have to get more women into the roles is, and we heard this from Sheryl Sandberg, as women, we feel we need to meet every qualification on an application. Whereas men, "I got a couple I'm good to go." And they throw their name in the hat. They take much more risk than we do as women. So we need to encourage our women to get out of your comfort zone. You don't need to meet every qualification. What Nishita was saying of thinking more broadly about what this role requires and the type of individual that we're looking for, but be purposeful in terms of driving to diversity as our end result. >> That is so true. What you just said. Thank you so much for sharing your insights. It's really interesting to hear all your strategies and thanks for sharing. >> And you're clear.

>> Hello, my name is Petar Bojovic, director of technology infrastructure from Blue Cross Blue Shield of North Carolina. I have been with this organization for over three years and I own system engineering across private and public cloud, virtualization, OS, backup, storage, OpenShift platform, and automation. I have been implementing significant change improving our operating model since I arrived. Blue Cross Blue Shield North Carolina is transforming healthcare by changing the current model. We are focusing on something called value-based healthcare. Traditionally, healthcare model is typically a fee for service or capitated approach in which providers are paid based on the amount of health care services they deliver. Fee for service versus outcome. So when you go to a doctor and you do an office visit, they charge you for every item that they see you with. Based on that, they send that to my organization to adjudicate those claims. Value-based healthcare, on the other hand is a healthcare delivery model in which providers, including hospitals and physicians, are paid based on patient health outcomes. The value in value-based healthcare is derived from measuring health outcomes against the cost of delivering those outcomes. Well, we want to do the same and derive value out of IT as well. Significant value can be attained through automation on all levels. Just like most journeys, mine began with motivation. Let's talk about how I got here, how did I get started and how you can do it too. But first let's talk about Ansible. The automation engine is designed to provide an easy, reusable and platform-independent vehicle to automate complex and repetitive tasks. First off, Ansible is an open-source tool. It is very simple to use and set up. Even better, it's extremely powerful and flexible. You can orchestrate the entire application environment, no matter where it's deployed. You can also customize it based on your needs. Back in 2018, we had to build 150 jump server VMs in under 24 hours. Well, we leveraged some of the cobbled automation tools and scripts to get this done within that timeline. Without leveraging these tools and automation, this would have taken at least a week to facilitate the build. So a couple key takeaways from that exercise. Number one, this was awesome. All right, number two. We saw amazing potential in automation. Number three, we ran into network and other related build issues. Number four, we were unsure what to do next and where to focus within the realm of automation. So fast forward to May, 2019. My infrastructure engineering team introduced infrastructure automation software, you guessed it, Ansible to Blue Cross North Carolina to reduce overall IT costs, increase agility, productivity, and delivery while reducing delays and reliance on outside managed service providers or those repetitive manual tasks. So in the past, to provision a single server or virtual machine would take a minimum of 10 business days. That's not the overall process. That is just the deployment, would take 10 business days and over 20 hours of work, resulting in a cost of approximately $3,300 in charges per build. That's over $3,000 per build per server. However, with the automation platform provided by Ansible, this effort was significantly reduced. Reduced to under one business day, a half-hour worth of work and zero managed service provider charges. Let's fast forward a bit, to middle to late 2019. Blue Cross North Carolina decided to re-host the Facets application platform in-house within our co-locations. Well, Facets is a claim adjudication platform. After a medical claim is submitted, the insurance company Blue Cross determines their financial responsibility for the payment to the provider. This process is referred to as claims adjudication. Blue Cross was faced with the requirement to create roughly 1000 virtual machines as quickly as possible across all regions. Development, tests, training, QA, UAT, P stage, a staging environment, production, NDR. Well, our current managed service provider projected requiring 12 dedicated staff members and 16 weeks to process this request. Nope. There had to be a better way. By leveraging automation, the existing infrastructure engineering team was able to successfully provision all the required servers across three business days, in a total of 16 hours as well as nine weeks ahead of the project plan schedule, resulting in a cost avoidance of over $850,000. That's amazing, isn't it? Well, since then, the infrastructure engineering team has continued to use automation to assist teams both inside and outside of IT by reducing hours spent on repetitive tasks. Automation has increased the speed and accuracy of account creation, security hardening, and remediations, environment-wide configuration changes and software agent installations, just to name a few. This implementation had a significant positive impact on cost savings and cost avoidance and how quickly we can deliver and deploy infrastructure for projects. How were we able to implement this meaningful change? Well, I'll tell you, we started to evangelize and convert those naysayers to the wonderful world of automation. "Automate everything" was our mantra, even automate the automation. We'll eventually get there. It took a top-down approach to really accelerate use and adoptions. I spoke to anyone and everyone I could, my VP did the same, and even my CIO, Jo Abernathy. She started touting how important automation will be to the organization, its value, and how we can stay competitive and deploy faster and deliver at the speed of innovation. Wow, just wow. With a top-down approach for automation, we are empowering teams throughout the business to focus on those areas that are ripe for automation. Repetitive mundane tasks, those that are time delays are ideal candidates and allow these teams to focus on their core workload, versus time spent on those repetitive tasks. We are flaunting our automation successes within IT infrastructure to other departments in IT and the business at large. These conversations are opening up new possibilities to empower team members to leverage automation to deploy and deliver more quickly to meet the demand of enterprise projects and initiatives. Since its inception, the team has delivered on every project request ahead of schedule for infrastructure build, think about that. Every project request has been delivered ahead of schedule from an infrastructure perspective. That's fantastic. Well, automation is not new to the company, my company, nor yours. There's many tools, we use scripting, there's a lot available, but with Ansible and the way we've been able to implement it and make meaningful impact quickly, is new to the industry. We have been able to automate and reap significant cost avoidance in a short amount of time. Other similarly-sized companies are leveraging the same tool for longer and are not able to accomplish as much as we did in a short of time. We had motivation. Since starting this initiative, we are averaging cost avoidances in excess of $250,000 monthly. As difficult as it is to implement something new in most companies, the team implemented this capability and way of thinking within months. The sheer dedication to the business objective and the can-do attitude allowed us to be extremely successful. Thank you very much for your time and allowing me to tell my story.

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: From the CUBE studios in Palo Alto, in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is theCUBE Conversation. >> Hey, welcome back everybody Jeffrey Frick with theCUBE. We are getting through the COVID crisis. It continues and impacting the summer. I can't believe the summer's almost over, but there's a whole lot of things going on in terms of privacy and contact tracing and this kind of this feeling that there's this conflict between kind of personal identification and your personal privacy versus the public good around things like contact tracing. And I was in a session last week with two really fantastic experts. I wanted to bring them on the show and we're really excited to have back for I don't even know how many times Michelle has been on Michelle Dennedy, She is the former chief privacy officer at Cisco and now she's running the CEO of Identity, Michelle great to see you. >> Good to see you always Jeff >> Yeah and for the first time Dr. Ann Cavoukian and she is the executive director Global Privacy & Security By Design Center. Joining us from Toronto, worked with the government and is not short on opinions about privacy. (laughing) Ann good to see you. >> Hi Jeff thank you >> Yes, so let's jump into it cause I think one of the fundamental issues that we keep hearing is this zero-sum game. And I know and it's a big topic for you that there seems to be this trade off this either or and specifically let's just go to contact tracing. Cause that's a hot topic right now with COVID. I hear that it's like you're telling everybody where I'm going and you're sharing that with all these other people. How is this even a conversation and where do I get to choose whether I want to participate or not? >> You can't have people traced and tracked and surveil. You simply can't have it and it can't be an either or win lose model. You have to get rid of that data. Zero-sum game where only one person can win and the other one loses and it sums to a total of zero. Get rid of that, that's so yesterday. You have to have both groups winning positive sum. Meaning yes, you need public health and public safety and you need privacy. It's not one versus the other. We can do both and that's what we insist upon. So the contact term tracing app that was developed in Canada was based on the Apple Google framework, which is actually called exposure notification. It's totally privacy protective individuals choose to voluntarily download this app. And no personal information is collected whatsoever. No names, no geolocation data, nothing. It's simply notifies you. If you've been exposed to someone who is COVID-19 positive, and then you can decide on what action you wish to take. Do you want to go get tested? Do you want to go to your family doctor, whatever the decision lies with you, you have total control and that's what privacy is all about. >> Jeffrey: But what about the person who was sick? Who's feeding the top into that process and is the sick person that you're no notifying they obviously their personal information is part of that transaction. >> what the COVID alerts that we developed based on the Apple Google framework. It builds on manual contact tracing, which also take place the two to compliment each other. So the manual contact tracing is when individuals go get to get tested and they're tested as positive. So healthcare nurses will speak to that individual and say, please tell us who you've been in contact with recently, family, friends, et cetera. So the two work together and by working together, we will combat this in a much more effective manner. >> Jeffrey: So shifting over to you Michelle, you know, there's PIN and a lot of conversations all the time about personal identifiable information but right. But then medical has this whole nother class of kind of privacy restrictions and level of care. And I find it really interesting that on one hand, you know, we were trying to do the contract tracing on another hand if you know, my wife works in a public school. If they find out that one of the kids in this class has been exposed to COVID somehow they can't necessarily tell the teacher because of HIPAA restriction. So I wonder if you could share your thoughts on this kind of crossover between privacy and health information when it gets into this kind of public crisis and this inherent conflict for the public right to know and should the teacher be able to be told and it's not a really clean line with a simple answer, I don't think. >> No and Jeff, and you're also layering, you know, when you're talking about student data, you layering another layer of legal restriction. And I think what you're putting your thumb on is something that's really critical. When you talk about privacy engineering, privacy by design and ethics engineering. You can't simply start with the legal premise. So is it lawful to share HIPAA covered data. A child telling mommy I don't feel well not HIPAA covered. A child seeing a doctor for medical services and finding some sort of infection or illness covered, right? So figuring out the origin of the exact same zero one. Am I ill or not, all depends on context. So you have to first figure out, first of all let's tackle the moral issues. Have we decided that it is a moral imperative to expose certain types of data. And I separate that from ethics intentionally and with apologies to true ethicists. The moral imperative is sort of the things we find are so wrong. We don't want a list of kids who are sick or conversely once the tipping point goes the list of kids who are well. So then they are called out that's the moral choice. The ethical choice is just because you can should you, and that's a much longer conversation. Then you get to the legal imperative. Are you allowed to based on the past mistakes that we made. That's what every piece of litigation or legislation is particularly in a common law construct in the US. It's very important to understand that civil law countries like the European theater. They try to prospectively legislate for things that might go wrong. The construct is thinner in a common law economy where you do, you use test cases in the courts of law. That's why we are such a litigious society has its own baggage. But you have to now look at is that legal structure attempting to cover past harms that are so bad that we've decided as a society to punish them, is this a preventative law? And then you finally get to what I say is stage four for every evaluation is isn't viable, are the protections that you have to put on top of these restrictions. So dire that they either cannot be maintained because of culture process or cash or it just doesn't make sense anymore. So does it, is it better to just feel someone's forehead for illness rather than giving a blood assay, having it sent away for three weeks and then maybe blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. >> Right. >> You have to look at this as a system problem solving issue. >> So I want to look at it in the context of, again kind of this increased level of politicization and or, you know, kind of exposure outside of what's pretty closed. And I want to bring up AIDS and the porn industry very frankly right? Where people behaving in the behavior of the business risk a life threatening disease of which I still don't think it as a virus. So you know why, cause suddenly, you know, we can track for that and that's okay to track for that. And there's a legitimate reason to versus all of the other potential medical conditions that I may or may not have that are not necessarily brought to bear within coming to work. And we might be seeing this very soon. As you said, if people are wanting our temperatures, as we come in the door to check for symptoms. How does that play with privacy and healthcare? It's still fascinates me that certain things is kind of pop out into their own little bucket of regulation. I'm wondering if you could share your thoughts on that Ann. >> You know, whenever you make it privacy versus fill in the blank, especially in the context of healthcare. You end up turning it to a lose lose as opposed to even a win lose. Because you will have fewer people wanting to allow themselves to be tested, to be brought forward for fear of where that information may land. If it lands in the hands of your employer for example or your whoever owns your house if you're in renting, et cetera. It creates enormous problems. So regardless of what you may think of the benefits of that model. History has shown that it doesn't work well that people end up shying away from being tested or seeking treatment or any of those things. Even now with the contact tracing apps that have been developed. If you look globally the contact tracing apps for COVID-19. They have failed the ones that identify individuals in the UK, in Australia, in Western Canada that's how it started out. And they've completely dropped them because they don't work. People shy away from them. They don't use them. So they've gotten rid of that. They've replaced it with the, an app based on the Apple Google framework, which is the one that protects privacy and will encourage people to come forward and seek to be tested. If there's a problem in Germany. Germany is one of the largest privacy data protection countries in the world. Their privacy people are highly trusted in Germany. Germany based their app on the Apple Google framework. About a month ago they released it. And within 24 hours they had 6.5 million people download the app. >> Right. >> Because there is such trust there unlike the rest of the world where there's very little trust and we have to be very careful of the trust deficit. Because we want to encourage people to seek out these apps so they can attempt to be tested if there's a problem, but they're not going to use them. They're just going to shy away from them. If there is such a problem. And in fact I'll never forget. I did an interview about a month ago, three weeks ago in the US on a major major radio station that has like 54 million people followers. And I was telling them about the COVID alert the Canadian contact tracing app, actually it's called exposure notification app, which was built on the Apple Google framework. And people in hoard said they wouldn't trust anyone with it in the US. They just wouldn't trust it. So you see there's such a trust deficit. That's what we have to be careful to avoid. >> So I want to hold on the trust for just a second, but I want to go back to you Michelle and talk about the lessons that we can learn post 9/11. So the other thing right and keep going back to this over and over. It's not a zero-sum game. It's not a zero-sum game and yet that's the way it's often positioned as a way to break down existing barriers. So if you go back to 9/11 probably the highest profile thing being the Patriot Act, you know, where laws are put in place to protect us from terrorism that are going to do things that were not normally allowed to be done. I bet without checking real exhaustively that most of those things are still in place. You know, cause a lot of times laws are written. They don't go away for a long time. What can we learn from what happened after 9/11 and the Patriot Act and what should be really scared of, or careful of or wary of using that as a framework for what's happening now around COVID and privacy. >> It's a perfect, it's not even an analogy because we're feeling the shadows of the Patriot Act. Even now today, we had an agreement from the United States with the European community until recently called the Privacy Shield. And it was basically if companies and organizations that were, that fell under the Federal Trade Commissions jurisdiction, there's a bit of layering legal process here. But if they did and they agreed to supply enough protection to data about people who were present in the European Union to the same or better level than the Europeans would. Then that information could pass through this Privacy Shield unencumbered to and from the United States. That was challenged and taken down. I don't know if it's a month ago or if it's still March it's COVID time, but very recently on basis that the US government can overly and some would say indifferent nations, improperly look at European data based on some of these Patriot Act, FISA courts and other intrusive mechanisms that absolutely do apply if we were under the jurisdiction of the United States. So now companies and private actors are in the position of having to somehow prove that they will mechanize their systems and their processes to be immune from their own government intrusion before they can do digital trade with other parts of the world. We haven't yet seen the commercial disruption that will take place. So the unintended consequence of saying rather than owning the answers or the observations and the intelligence that we got out of the actual 9/11 report, which said we had the information we needed. We did not share enough between the agencies and we didn't have the decision making activity and will to take action in that particular instance. Rather than sticking to that knowledge. Instead we stuck to the Patriot Act, which was all but I believe to Congress people. When I mean, you see the hot mess. That is the US right now. When everyone but two people in the room vote for something on the quick. There's probably some sort of a psychological gun to your head. That's probably well thought out thing. We fight each other. That's part of being an American dammit. So I think having these laws that say, you've got to have this one solution because the boogeyman is coming or COVID is coming or terrorists or child pornographers are coming. There's not one solution. So you really have to break this down into an engineering problem and I don't mean technology when I say engineering. I mean looking at the culture, how much trust do you have? Who is the trusted entity? Do we trust Microsoft more than we trust the US government right now? Maybe that might be your contact. How you're going to build people, process and technology not to avoid a bad thing, but to achieve a positive objective because if you're not achieving that positive objective of understanding that safe to move about without masks on, for example, stop, just stop. >> Right, right. My favorite analogy Jeff, and I think I've said this to you in the past is we don't sit around and debate the merits of viscosity of water to protect concrete holes. We have to make sure that when you lead them to the concrete hole, there's enough water in the hole. No, you're building a swimming pool. What kind of a swimming pool do you want? Is it commercial, Is it toddlers? Is it (indistinct), then you build in correlation, protection and da da da da. But if you start looking at every problem as how to avoid hitting a concrete hole. You're really going to miss the opportunity to build and solve the problem that you want and avoid the risk that you do not want. >> Right right, and I want to go back to you on the trust thing. You got an interesting competent in that other show, talking about working for the government and not working directly for the people are voted in power, but for the kind of the larger bureaucracy and agency. I mean, the Edelman Trust Barometer is really interesting. They come out every year. I think it's their 20th year. And they break down kind of like media, government and business. And who do you trust and who do you not trust? What what's so fascinating about the time we're in today is even within the government, the direction that's coming out is completely diametrically opposed oftentimes between the Fed, the state and the local. So what does kind of this breakdown of trust when you're getting two different opinions from the same basic kind of authority due to people's ability or desire to want to participate and actually share the stuff that maybe or maybe not might get reshared. >> It leaves you with no confidence. Basically, you can't take confidence in any of this. And when I was privacy commissioner. I served for three terms, each term that was a different government, different political power in place. And before they had become the government, they were all for privacy and data protection believed in and all that. And then once they became the government all that changed and all of a sudden they wanted to control everyone's information and they wanted to be in power. No, I don't trust government. You know, people often point to the private sector as being the group you should distrust in terms of privacy. I say no, not at all. To me far worse is actually the government because everyone thinks they're there to do good job and trust them. You can't trust. You have to always look under the hood. I always say trust but verify. So unfortunately we have to be vigilant in terms of the protections we seek for privacy both with private sector and with the government, especially with the government and different levels of government. We need to ensure that people's privacy remains intact. It's preserved now and well into the future. You can't give up on it because there's some emergency a pandemic, a terrorist incident whatever of course we have to address those issues. But you have to insist upon people's privacy being preserved. Privacy forms the foundation of our freedom. You cannot have free and open societies without a solid foundation of privacy. So I'm just encouraging everyone. Don't take anything at face value, just because the government tells you something. It doesn't mean it's so always look under the hood and let us ensure the privacy is strongly protected. See emergencies come and go. The pandemic will end. What cannot end is our privacy and our freedom. >> So this is a little dark in here, but we're going to lighten it up a little bit because there's, as Michelle said, you know, if you think about building a pool versus putting up filling a hole, you know, you can take proactive steps. And there's a lot of conversation about proactive steps and I pulled Ann your thing Privacy by Design, The 7 Foundational Principles. I have the guys pull up a slide. But I think what's really interesting here is, is you're very, very specific prescriptive, proactive, right? Proactive, not reactive. Privacy is the default setting. You know, don't have to read the ULAs and I'm not going to read the, all the words we'll share it. People can find it. But what I wanted to focus on is there is an opportunity to get ahead of the curve, but you just have to be a little bit more thoughtful. >> That's right, and Privacy By Design it's a model of prevention, much like a medical model of prevention where you try to prevent the harms from arising, not just deal with them after the facts through regulatory compliance. Of course we have privacy laws and that's very important, but they usually kick in after there's been a data breach or privacy infraction. So when I was privacy commissioner obviously those laws were intact and we had to follow them, but I wanted something better. I wanted to prevent the privacy harms from arising, just like a medical model of prevention. So that's a Privacy By Design is intended to do is instantiate, embed much needed privacy protective measures into your policies, into your procedures bake it into the code so that it has a constant presence and can prevent the harms from arising. >> Jeffrey: Right right. One of the things I know you love to talk about Michelle is compliance, right? And is compliance enough. I know you like to talk about the law. And I think one of the topics that came up on your guys' prior conversation is, you know, will there be a national law, right? GDPR went through on the European side last year, the California Protection Act. A lot of people think that might become the model for more of a national type of rule. But I tell you, when you watch some of the hearings in DC, you know, I'm sure 90% of these people still print their emails and have their staff hand them to them. I mean, it's really scary that said, you know, regulation always does kind of lag probably when it needs to be put in place because people maybe abuse or go places they shouldn't go. So I wonder if you could share your thoughts on where you think legislation is going to going and how should people kind of see that kind of playing out over the next several years, I guess. >> Yeah, it's such a good question Jeff. And it's like, you know, I think even the guys in Vegas are having trouble with setting the high laws on this. Cameron said in I think it was December of 2019, which was like 15 years ago now that in the first quarter of 2020, we would see a federal law. And I participated in a hearing at the Senate banking committee, again, November, October and in the before times. I'm talking about the same thing and here we are. Will we have a comprehensive, reasonable, privacy law in the United States before the end of this president's term. No, we will not. I can say that with just such faith and fidelity. (laughing) But what does that mean? And I think Katie Porter who I'm starting to just love, she's the Congresswoman who's famous for pulling on her white board and just saying, stop fudging the numbers. Let's talk about the numbers. There's about a, what she calls the 20% legislative flip phone a caucus. So there are 20% or more on both sides of the aisle of people in the US who are in the position of writing our laws. who are still on flip phones and aren't using smart phones and other kinds of technologies. There's a generation gap. And as much as I can kind of chuckle at that a little bit and wink, wink, nudge, nudge, isn't that cute. Because you know, my dad, as you know, is very very technical and he's a senior citizen. This is hard. I hope he doesn't see that but... (laughing) But then it's not old versus young. It's not let's get a whole new group and crop and start over again. What it is instead and this is, you know, as my constant tome sort of anti compliance. I'm not anti compliance. You got to put your underwear on before your pants or it's just really hard. (laughing) And I would love to see anyone who is capable of putting their underwater on afterwards. After you've made the decision of following the process. That is so basic. It comes down to, do you want the data that describes or is donated or observed about human beings. Whether it's performance of your employees. People you would love to entice onto your show to be a guest. People you'd like to listen and consume your content. People you want to meet. People you want to marry. Private data as Ann says, does the form the foundation of our freedom, but it also forms the foundation of our commerce. So that compliance, if you have stacked the deck proactively with an ethics that people can understand and agree with and have a choice about and feel like they have some integrity. Then you will start to see the acceleration factor of privacy being something that belongs on your balance sheet. What kind of data is high quality, high nutrition in the right context. And once you've got that, you're in good shape. >> I'm laughing at privacy on the balance sheet. We just had a big conversation about data on the balance sheets. It's a whole, that's a whole another topic. So we can go for days. I have Pages and pages of notes here. But unfortunately I know we've got some time restrictions. And so, and I want to give you the last word as you look forward. You've been in this for a while. You've been in it from the private side, as well as the government side. And you mentioned lots of other scary things, kind of on the horizon. Like the kick of surveillance creep, which there's all kinds of interesting stuff. You know, what advice do you give to citizens. What advice do you give to leaders in the public sector about framing the privacy conversation >> I always want to start by telling them don't frame privacy as a negative. It's not a negative. It's something that can build so much. If you're a business, you can gain a competitive advantage by strongly protecting your customer's privacy because then it will build such loyalty and you'll gain a competitive advantage. You make it work for you. As a government you want your citizens to have faith in the government. You want to encourage them to understand that as a government you respect their privacy. Privacy is highly contextual. It's only the individual who can make determinations relating to the disclosure of his or her personal information. So make sure you build that trust both as a government and as a business, private sector entity and gain from that. It's not a negative at all, make it work for you, make it work for your citizens, for your customers, make it a plus a win win that will give you the best returns. >> Isn't it nice when doing the right thing actually provides better business outcomes too. It's like diversity of opinion and women on boards. And kind of things- >> I love that. we cover these days. >> Well ladies, thank you very very much for your time. I know you've got a hard stop, so I'm going to cut you loose or else we would go for probably another hour and a half, but thank you so much for your time. Thank you for continuing to beat the drum out there and look forward to our next conversation. Hopefully in the not too distant future. >> My pleasure Jeff. Thank you so much. >> Thank you. >> Thank you too. >> All right She's Michelle. >> She's Ann. I'm Jeff. You're watching theCUBE. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

(upbeat electronic music) >> Narrator: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a CUBE conversation. >> Okay, hello everyone. I'm John Furrier with theCUBE. We're here with Meet the Analysts segment Sunday morning. We've got everyone around the world here to discuss a bit of the news around the EU killing the privacy deal, striking it down, among other topics around, you know, data privacy and global commerce. We got great guests here, Ray Wang, CEO of Constellation Research. Bill Mew, founder and CEO of Cyber Crisis Management from the Firm Crisis Team. And JD, CEO of Spearhead Management. JD, I can let you say your name because I really can't pronounce it. How do I (laughs) pronounce it, doctor? >> I wouldn't even try it unless you are Dutch, otherwise it will seriously hurt your throat. (Ray laughing) So, JD works perfect for me. >> Doctor Drooghaag. >> And Sarbjeet Johal, who's obviously an influencer, a cloud awesome native expert. Great, guys. Great to have you on, appreciate it, thanks for comin' on. And Bill, thank you for initiating this, I appreciate all your tweets. >> Happy Sunday. (Bill laughing) >> You guys have been really tweeting up a storm, I want to get everyone together, kind of as an analyst, Meet the Analyst segment. Let's go through with it. The news is the EU and U.S. Privacy Shield for data struck down by the court, that's the BBC headline. Variety of news, different perspectives, you've got an American perspective and you've got an international perspective. Bill, we'll start with you. What does this news mean? I mean, basically half the people in the world probably don't know what the Privacy Shield means, so why is this ruling so important, and why should it be discussed? >> Well, thanks to sharing between Europe and America, it's based on a two-way promise that when data goes from Europe to America, the Americans promise to respect our privacy, and when data goes form America to Europe, the Europeans promise to respect the American privacy. Unfortunately, there are big cultural differences between the two blocks. The Europeans have a massive orientation around privacy as a human right. And in the U.S., there's somewhat more of a prioritization on national security, and therefore for some time there's been a mismatch here, and it could be argued that the Americans haven't been living up to their promise because they've had various different laws, and look how much talk about FISA and the Cloud Act that actually contravene European privacy and are incompatible with the promise Americans have given. That promise, first of all, was in the form of a treaty called Safe Harbor. This went to court and was struck down. It was replaced by Privacy Shield, which was pretty much the same thing really, and that has recently been to the court as well, and that has been struck down. There now is no other means of legally sharing data between Europe and America other than what are being called standard contractual clauses. This isn't a broad treaty between two nations, these are drawn by each individual country. But also in the ruling, they said that standard contractual clauses could not be used by any companies that were subject to mass surveillance. And actually in the U.S., the FISA courts enforce a level of mass surveillance through all of the major IT firms, of all major U.S. telcos, cloud firms, or indeed, social media firms. So, this means that for all of the companies out there and their clients, business should be carrying on as usual apart from if you're one of those major U.S. IT firms, or one of their clients. >> So, why did this come about? Was there like a major incident? Why now, was it in the court, stuck in the courts? Were people bitchin' and moanin' about it? Why did this go down, what's the real issue? >> For those of us who have been following this attentively, things have been getting more and more precarious for a number of years now. We've had a situation where there are different measures being taken in the U.S., that have continued to erode the different protections that there were for Europeans. FISA is an example that I've given, and that is the sort of secret courts and secret warrants that are issued to seize data without anyone's knowledge. There's the Cloud Act, which is a sort of extrajudicial law that means that warrants can be served in America to U.S. organizations, and they have to hand over data wherever that data resides, anywhere in the world. So, data could exist on a European server, if it was under the control of an American company, they'd have to hand that over. So, whilst FISA is in direct conflict with the promises that the Americans made, things like the Cloud Act are not only in controversion with the promise they've made, there's conflicting law here, because if you're a U.S. subsidiary of a big U.S. firm, and you're based in Europe, who do you obey, the European law that says you can't hand it over because of GDPR, or the American laws that says they've got extrajudicial control, and that you've got to hand it over. So, it's made things a complete mess. And to say has this stuff, hasn't really happened? No, there's been a gradual erosion, and this has been going through the courts for a number of years. And many of us have seen it coming, and now it just hit us. >> So, if I get you right in what you're saying, it's basically all this mishmash of different laws, and there's no coherency, and consistency, is that the core issue? >> On the European side you could argue there's quite a lot of consistency, because we uphold people's privacy, in theory. But there have been incidents which we could talk about with that, but in theory, we hold your rights dear, and also the rights of Europeans, so everyone's data should be safe here from the sort of mass surveillance we're seeing. In the U.S., there's more of a direct conflict between everything, including there's been a, in his first week in the White House, Donald Trump signed an executive order saying that the Privacy Act in the U.S., which had been the main protection for people in the U.S., no longer applied to non-U.S. citizens. Which was, if you wanted try and cause a storm, and if you wanted to try and undermine the treaty, there's no better way of doing it than that. >> A lot of ways, Ray, I mean simplify this for me, because I'm a startup, I'm hustlin', or I'm a big company, I don't even know who runs the servers anymore, and I've got data stored in multiple clouds, I got in regions, and Oracle just announced more regions, you got Amazon, a gazillion regions, I could be on-premise. I mean bottom line, what is this about? I mean, and -- >> Bill's right, I mean when Max Schrems, the Austrian. Bill's right, when Max Schrems the Austrian activist actually filed his case against Facebook for where data was being stored, data residency wasn't as popular. And you know, what it means for companies that are in the cloud is that you have to make sure your data's being stored in the region, and following those specific region rules, you can't skirt those rules anymore. And I think the cloud companies know that this has been coming for some time, and that's why there's been announced in a lot of regions, a lot of areas that are actually happening, so I think that's the important part. But going back to Bill's earlier point, which is important, is America is basically the Canary Islands of privacy, right? Privacy is there, but it isn't there in a very, very explicit sense, and I think we've been skirting the rules for quite some time, because a lot of our economy depends on that data, and the marketing of the data. And so we often confuse privacy with consent, and also with value exchange, and I think that's part of the problem of what's going on here. Companies that have been building their business models on free data, free private data, free personally identifiable data information are the ones that are at risk! And I think that's what's going on here. >> It's the classic Facebook issue, you're the product, and the data is your product. Well, I want to get into what this means, 'cause my personal take away, not knowing the specifics, and just following say, cyber security for instance, one of the tenets there is that data sharing is an invaluable, important ethos in the community. Now, everyone has their own privacy, or security data, they don't want to let everyone know about their exploits but, but it's well known in the security world that sharing data with each other, different companies and countries is actually a good thing. So, the question that comes in my mind, is this really about data sharing or data privacy, or both? >> I think it's about both. And actually what the ruling is saying here is, all we're asking from the European side is please stop spying on us and please give us a level of equal protection that you give to your own citizens. Because data comes from America to Europe, whatever that data belongs to, a U.S. citizen or a European citizen, it's given equal protection. It is only if data goes in the other direction, where you have secret courts, secret warrants, seizure of data on this massive scale, and also a level of lack of equivalence that has been imposed. And we're just asking that once you've sorted out a few of those things, we'd say everything's back on the table, away we go again! >> Why don't we merge the EU with the United States? Wouldn't that solve the problem? (Bill laughing) >> We just left Europe! (laughs heartily) >> Actually I always -- >> A hostile takeover of the UK maybe, the 52nd state. (Bill laughing loudly) >> I always pick on Bill, like Bill, you got all screaming loud and clear about all these concerns, but UKs trying to get out of that economic union. It is a union at the end of the day, and I think the problem is the institutional mismatch between the EU and U.S., U.S. is old democracy, bigger country, population wise, bigger economy. Whereas Europe is several countries trying to put together, band together as one entity, and the institutions are new, like you know, they're 15 years old, right? They're maturing. I think that's where the big mismatch is and -- >> Well, Ray, I want to get your thoughts on this, Ray wrote a book, I forget what year it was, this digital disruption, basically it was digital transformation before it was actually a trend. I mean to me it's like, do you do the process first and then figure out where the value extraction is, and this may be a Silicon Valley or an American thing, but go create value, then figure out how to create process or understand regulations. So, if data and entrepreneurship is going to be a new modern era of value, why wouldn't we want to create a rule based system that's open and enabling, and not restrictive? >> So, that's a great point, right? And the innovation culture means you go do it first, and you figure out the rules later, and that's been a very American way of getting things done, and very Silicon Valley in our perspective, not everyone, but I think in general that's kind of the trend. I think the challenge here is that we are trading privacy for security, privacy for convenience, privacy for personalization, right? And on the security level, it's a very different conversation than what it is on the consumer end, you know, personalization side. On the security side I think most Americans are okay with a little bit of "spying," at least on your own side, you know, to keep the country safe. We're not okay with a China level type of spying, which we're not sure exactly what that means or what's enforceable in the courts. We look like China to the Europeans in the way we treat privacy, and I think that's the perspective we need to understand because Europeans are very explicit about how privacy is being protected. And so this really comes back to a point where we actually have to get to a consent model on privacy, as to knowing what data is being shared, you have the right to say no, and when you have the right to say no. And then if you have a value exchange on that data, then it's really like sometimes it's monetary, sometimes it's non-monetary, sometimes there's other areas around consensus where you can actually put that into place. And I think that's what's missing at this point, saying, you know, "Do we pay for your data? Do we explicitly get your consent first before we use it?" And we haven't had that in place, and I think that's where we're headed towards. And you know sometimes we actually say privacy should be a human right, it is in the UN Charter, but we haven't figured out how to enforce it or talk about it in the digital age. And so I think that's the challenge. >> Okay, people, until they lose it, they don't really understand what it means. I mean, look at Americans. I have to say that we're idiots on this front, (Bill chuckling) but you know, the thing is most people don't even understand how much value's getting sucked out of their digital exhaust. Like, our kids, TikTok and whatnot. So I mean, I get that, I think there's some, there's going to be blow back for America for sure. I just worry it's going to increase the cost of doing business, and take away from the innovation for citizen value, the people, because at the end of the day, it's for the people right? I mean, at the end of the day it's like, what's my privacy mean if I lose value? >> Even before we start talking about the value of the data and the innovation that we can do through data use, you have to understand the European perspective here. For the European there's a level of double standards and an erosion of trust. There's double standards in the fact that in California you have new privacy regulations that are slightly different to GDPR, but they're very much GDPR like. And if the boot was on the other foot, to say if we were spying on Californians and looking at their personal data, and contravening CCPA, the Californians would be up in arms! Likewise if we having promised to have a level of equality, had enacted a local rule in Europe that said that when data from America's over here, actually the privacy of Americans counts for nothing, we're only going to prioritize the privacy of Europeans. Again, the Americans would be up in arms! And therefore you can see that there are real double standards here that are a massive issue, and until those addressed, we're not going to trust the Americans. And likewise, the very fact that on a number of occasions Americans have signed up to treaties and promised to protect our data as they did with Safe Harbor, as they did with Privacy Shield, and then have blatantly, blatantly failed to do so means that actually to get back to even a level playing field, where we were, you have a great deal of trust to overcome! And the thing from the perspective of the big IT firms, they've seen this coming for a long time, as Ray was saying, and they sought to try and have a presence in Europe and other things. But the way this ruling has gone is that, I'm sorry, that isn't going to be sufficient! These big IT firms based in the U.S. that have been happy to hand over data, well some of them maybe more happy than others, but they all need to hand over data to the NSA or the CIA. They've been doing this for some time now without actually respecting this data privacy agreement that has existed between the two trading blocks. And now they've been called out, and the position now is that the U.S. is no longer trusted, and neither are any of these large American technology firms. And until the snooping stops and equality is introduced, they can now no longer, even from their European operations, they can no longer use standard contractual clauses to transfer data, which is going to be a massive restriction on their business. And if they had any sense, they'd be lobbying very, very hard right now to the Senate, to the House, to try and persuade U.S. lawmakers actually to stick to some these treaties! To stop introducing really mad laws that ride roughshod over other people's privacy, and have a certain amount of respect. >> Let's let JD weigh in, 'cause he just got in, sorry on the video, I made him back on a host 'cause he dropped off. Just, Bill, real quick, I mean I think it's like when, you know, I go to Europe there's the line for Americans, there's the line for EU. Or EU and everybody else. I mean we might be there, but ultimately this has to be solved. So, JD, I want to let you weigh in, Germany has been at the beginning forefront of privacy, and they've been hardcore, and how's this all playing out in your perspective? >> Well, the first thing that we have to understand is that in Germany, there is a very strong law for regulation. Germans panic as soon as they know regulation, so they need to understand what am I allowed to do, and what am I not allowed to do. And they expect the same from the others. For the record I'm not German, but I live in Germany for some 20 years, so I got a bit of a feeling for them. And that sense of need for regulation has spread very fast throughout the European Union, because most of the European member states of the European Union consider this, that it makes sense, and then we found that Britain had already a very good framework for privacy, so GDPR itself is very largely based on what the United Kingdom already had in place with their privacy act. Moving forward, we try to find agreement and consensus with other countries, especially the United States because that's where most of the tech providers are, only to find out, and that is where it started to go really, really bad, 2014, when the mass production by Edward Snowden came out, to find out it's not data from citizens, it's surveillance programs which include companies. I joined a purchasing conference a few weeks ago where the purchase of a large European multinational, where the purchasing director explicitly stated that usage of U.S. based tech providers for sensitive data is prohibited as a result of them finding out that they have been under surveillance. So, it's not just the citizens, there's mass -- >> There you have it, guys! We did trust you! We did have agreements there that you could have abided by, but you chose not to, you chose to abuse our trust! And you're now in a position where you are no longer trusted, and unless you can lobby your own elected representatives to actually recreate a level playing field, we're not going to continue trusting you. >> So, I think really I -- >> Well I mean that, you know, innovation has to come from somewhere, and you know, has to come from America if that's the case, you guys have to get on board, right? Is that what it -- >> Innovation without trust? >> Is that the perspective? >> I don't think it's a country thing, I mean like, it's not you or them, I think everybody -- >> I'm just bustin' Bill's chops there. >> No, but I think everybody, everybody is looking for what the privacy rules are, and that's important. And you can have that innovation with consent, and I think that's really where we're going to get to. And this is why I keep pushing that issue. I mean, privacy should be a fundamental right, and how you get paid for that privacy is interesting, or how you get compensated for that privacy if you know what the explicit value exchange is. What you're talking about here is the surveillance that's going on by companies, which shouldn't be happening, right? That shouldn't be happening at the company level. At the government level I can understand that that is happening, and I think those are treaties that the governments have to agree upon as to how much they're going to impinge on our personal privacy for the trade off for security, and I don't think they've had those discussions either. Or they decided and didn't tell any of their citizens, and I think that's probably more likely the case. >> I mean, I think what's happening here, Bill, you guys were pointing out, and Ray, you articulated there on the other side, and my kind of colorful joke aside, is that we're living a first generation modern sociology problem. I mean, this is a policy challenge that extends across multiple industries, cyber security, citizen's rights, geopolitical. I mean when would look, and even when we were doing CUBE events overseas in Europe, in North American companies we'd call it abroad, we'd just recycle the American program, and we found there's so much localization value. So, Ray, this is the digital disruption, it's the virtualization of physical for digital worlds, and it's a lot of network theory, which is computer science, a lot of sociology. This is a modern challenge, and I don't think it so much has a silver bullet, it's just that we need smart people working on this. That's my take away! >> I think we can describe the ideal endpoint being somewhere we have meaningful protection alongside the maximization of economic and social value through innovation. So, that should be what we would all agree would be the ideal endpoint. But we need both, we need meaningful protection, and we need the maximization of economic and social value through innovation! >> Can I add another axis? Another axis, security as well. >> Well, I could -- >> I put meaningful protection as becoming both security and privacy. >> Well, I'll speak for the American perspective here, and I won't speak, 'cause I'm not the President of the United States, but I will say as someone who's been from Silicon Valley and the east coast as a technical person, not a political person, our lawmakers are idiots when it comes to tech, just generally. (Ray laughing) They're not really -- (Bill laughing loudly) >> They really don't understand. They really don't understand the tech at all! >> So, the problem is -- >> I'm not claiming ours are a great deal better. (laughs) >> Well, this is why I think this is a modern problem. Like, the young people I talk to are like, "Why do we have this rules?" They're all lawyers that got into these positions of Congress on the American side, and so with the American JEDI Contract you guys have been following very closely is, it's been like the old school Oracle, IBM, and then Amazon is leading with an innovative solution, and Microsoft has come in and re-pivoted. And so what you have is a fight for the digital future of citizenship! And I think what's happening is that we're in a massive societal transition, where the people in charge don't know what the hell they're talkin' about, technically. And they don't know who to tap to solve the problems, or even shape or frame the problems. Now, there's pockets of people that are workin' on it, but to me as someone who looks at this saying, it's a pretty simple solution, no one's ever seen this before. So, there's a metaphor you can draw, but it's a completely different problem space because it's, this is all digital, data's involved. >> We've got a lobbyists out there, and we've got some tech firms spending an enormous amount of lobbying. If those lobbyists aren't trying to steer their representatives in the right direction to come up with law that aren't going to massively undermine trade and data sharing between Europe and America, then they're making a big mistake, because we got here through some really dumb lawmaking in the U.S., I mean, there are none of the laws in Europe that are a problem here. 'Cause GDPR isn't a great difference, a great deal different from some of the laws that we have already in California and elsewhere. >> Bill, Bill. >> The laws that are at issue here -- >> Bill, Bill! You have to like, back up a little bit from that rhetoric that EU is perfect and U.S. is not, that's not true actually. >> I'm not saying we're perfect! >> No, no, you say that all the time. >> But I'm saying there's a massive lack of innovation. Yeah, yeah. >> I don't, I've never said it! >> Arm wrestle! >> Yes, yes. >> When I'm being critical of some of the dumb laws in the U.S, (Sarbjeet laughing) I'm not saying Europe is perfect. What we're trying to say is that in this particular instance, I said there was an equal balance here between meaningful protection and the maximization of economic and social value. On the meaningful protection side, America's got it very wrong in terms of the meaningful protection it provides to civil European data. On the maximization of economic and social value, I think Europe's got it wrong. I think there are a lot of things we could do in Europe to actually have far more innovation. >> Yeah. >> It's a cultural issue. The Germans want rules, that's what they crave for. America's the other way, we don't want rules, I mean, pretty much is a rebel society. And that's kind of the ethos of most tech companies. But I think you know, to me the media, there's two things that go on with this tech business. The company's themselves have to be checked by say, government, and I believe in not a lot of regulation, but enough to check the power of bad actors. Media so called "checking power", both of these major roles, they don't really know what they're talking about, and this is back to the education piece. The people who are in the media so called "checking power" and the government checking power assume that the companies are bad. Right, so yeah, because eight out of ten companies like Amazon, actually try to do good things. If you don't know what good is, you don't really, (laughs) you know, you're in the wrong game. So, I think media and government have a huge education opportunity to look at this because they don't even know what they're measuring. >> I support the level of innovation -- >> I think we're unreeling from the globalization. Like, we are undoing the globalization, and that these are the side effects, these conflicts are a side effect of that. >> Yeah, so all I'm saying is I support the focus on innovation in America, and that has driven an enormous amount of wealth and value. What I'm questioning here is do you really need to spy on us, your allies, in order to help that innovation? And I'm starting to, I mean, do you need mass surveillance of your allies? I mean, I can see you may want to have some surveillance of people who are a threat to you, but wait, guys, we're meant to be on your side, and you haven't been treating our privacy with a great deal of respect! >> You know, Saudi Arabia was our ally. You know, 9/11 happened because of them, their people, right? There is no ally here, and there is no enemy, in a way. We don't know where the rogue actors are sitting, like they don't know, they can be within the walls -- >> It's well understood I think, I agree, sorry. it's well understood that nation states are enabling terrorist groups to take out cyber attacks. That's well known, the source enables it. So, I think there's the privacy versus -- >> I'm not sure it's true in your case that it's Europeans that's doing this though. >> No, no, well you know, they share -- >> I'm a former officer in the Royal Navy, I've stood shoulder to shoulder with my U.S. counterparts. I put my life on the line on NATO exercises in real war zones, and I'm now a disabled ex-serviceman as a result of that. I mean, if I put my line on the line shoulder to shoulder with Americans, why is my privacy not respected? >> Hold on -- >> I feel it's, I was going to say actually that it's not that, like even the U.S., right? Part of the spying internally is we have internal actors that are behaving poorly. >> Yeah. >> Right, we have Marxist organizations posing as, you know, whatever it is, I'll leave it at that. But my point being is we've got a lot of that, every country has that, every country has actors and citizens and people in the system that are destined to try to overthrow the system. And I think that's what that surveillance is about. The question is, we don't have treaties, or we didn't have your explicit agreements. And that's why I'm pushing really hard here, like, they're separating privacy versus security, which is the national security, and privacy versus us as citizens in terms of our data being basically taken over for free, being used for free. >> John: I agree with that. >> That I think we have some agreement on. I just think that our governments haven't really had that conversation about what surveillance means. Maybe someone agreed and said, "Okay, that's fine. You guys can go do that, we won't tell anybody." And that's what it feels like. And I don't think we deliberately are saying, "Hey, we wanted to spy on your citizens." I think someone said, "Hey, there's a benefit here too." Otherwise I don't think the EU would have let this happen for that long unless Max had made that case and started this ball rolling, so, and Edward Snowden and other folks. >> Yeah, and I totally support the need for security. >> I want to enter the -- >> I mean we need to, where there are domestic terrorists, we need to stop them, and we need to have local action in UK to stop it happening here, and in America to stop it happening there. But if we're doing that, there is absolutely no need for the Americans to be spying on us. And there's absolutely no need for the Americans to say that privacy applies to U.S. citizens only, and not to Europeans, these are daft, it's just daft! >> That's a fair point. I'm sure GCHQ and everyone else has this covered, I mean I'm sure they do. (laughs) >> Oh, Bill, I know, I've been involved, I've been involved, and I know for a fact the U.S. and the UK are discussing I know a company called IronNet, which is run by General Keith Alexander, funded by C5 Capital. There's a lot of collaboration, because again, they're tryin' to get their arms around how to frame it. And they all agree that sharing data for the security side is super important, right? And I think IronNet has this thing called Iron Dome, which is essentially like they're saying, hey, we'll just consistency around the rules of shared data, and we can both, everyone can have their own little data. So, I think there's recognition at the highest levels of some smart people on both countries. (laughs) "Hey, let's work together!" The issue I have is just policy, and I think there's a lot of clustering going on. Clustered here around just getting out of their own way. That's my take on that. >> Are we a PG show? Wait, are we a PG show? I just got to remember that. (laughs) (Bill laughing) >> It's the internet, there's no regulation, there's no rules! >> There's no regulation! >> The European rules or is it the American rules? (Ray laughing) >> I would like to jump back quickly to the purpose of the surveillance, and especially when mass surveillance is done under the cover of national security and terror prevention. I worked with five clients in the past decade who all have been targeted under mass surveillance, which was revealed by Edward Snowden, and when they did their own investigation, and partially was confirmed by Edward Snowden in person, they found out that their purchasing department, their engineering department, big parts of their pricing data was targeted in mass surveillance. There's no way that anyone can explain me that that has anything to do with preventing terror attacks, or finding the bad guys. That is economical espionage, you cannot call it in any other way. And that was authorized by the same legislation that authorizes the surveillance for the right purposes. I'm all for fighting terror, and anything that can help us prevent terror from happening, I would be the first person to welcome it. But I do not welcome when that regulation is abused for a lot of other things under the cover of national interest. I understand -- >> Back to the lawmakers again. And again, America's been victim to the Chinese some of the individual properties, well documented, well known in tech circles. >> Yeah, but just 'cause the Chinese have targeted you doesn't give you free right to target us. >> I'm not saying that, but its abuse of power -- >> If the U.S. can sort out a little bit of reform, in the Senate and the House, I think that would go a long way to solving the issues that Europeans have right now, and a long way to sort of reaching a far better place from which we can all innovate and cooperate. >> Here's the challenge that I see. If you want to be instrumenting everything, you need a closed society, because if you have a free country like America and the UK, a democracy, you're open. If you're open, you can't stop everything, right? So, there has to be a trust, to your point, Bill. As to me that I'm just, I just can't get my arms around that idea of complete lockdown and data surveillance because I don't think it's gettable in the United States, like it's a free world, it's like, open. It should be open. But here we've got the grids, and we've got the critical infrastructure that should be protected. So, that's one hand. I just can't get around that, 'cause once you start getting to locking down stuff and measuring everything, that's just a series of walled gardens. >> So, to JD's point on the procurement data and pricing data, I have been involved in some of those kind of operations, and I think it's financial espionage that they're looking at, financial security, trying to figure out a way to track down capital flows and what was purchased. I hope that was it in your client's case, but I think it's trying to figure out where the money flow is going, more so than trying to understand the pricing data from competitive purposes. If it is the latter, where they're stealing the competitive information on pricing, and data's getting back to a competitor, that is definitely a no-no! But if it's really to figure out where the money trail went, which is what I think most of those financial analysts are doing, especially in the CIA, or in the FBI, that's really what that probably would have been. >> Yeah, I don't think that the CIA is selling the data to your competitors, as a company, to Microsoft or to Google, they're not selling it to each other, right? They're not giving it to each other, right? So, I think the one big problem I studied with FISA is that they get the data, but how long they can keep the data and how long they can mine the data. So, they should use that data as exhaust. Means like, they use it and just throw it away. But they don't, they keep mining that data at a later date, and FISA is only good for five years. Like, I learned that every five years we revisit that, and that's what happened this time, that we renewed it for six years this time, not five, for some reason one extra year. So, I think we revisit all these laws -- >> Could be an election cycle. >> Huh? >> Could be an election cycle maybe. (laughs) >> Yes, exactly! So, we revisit all these laws with Congress and Senate here periodically just to make sure that they are up to date, and that they're not infringing on human rights, or citizen's rights, or stuff like that. >> When you say you update to check they're not conflicting with anything, did you not support that it was conflicting with Privacy Shield and some of the promises you made to Europeans? At what point did that fail to become obvious? >> It does, because there's heightened urgency. Every big incident happens, 9/11 caused a lot of new sort of like regulations and laws coming into the picture. And then the last time, that the Russian interference in our election, that created some sort of heightened urgency. Like, "We need to do something guys here, like if some country can topple our elections, right, that's not acceptable." So, yeah -- >> And what was it that your allies did that caused you to spy on us and to downgrade our privacy? >> I'm not expert on the political systems here. I think our allies are, okay, loose on their, okay, I call it village politics. Like, world is like a village. Like it's so only few countries, it's not millions of countries, right? That's how I see it, a city versus a village, and that's how I see the countries, like village politics. Like there are two camps, like there's Russia and China camp, and then there's U.S. camp on the other side. Like, we used to have Russia and U.S., two forces, big guys, and they managed the whole world balance somehow, right? Like some people with one camp, the other with the other, right? That's how they used to work. Now that Russia has gone, hold on, let me finish, let me finish. >> Yeah. >> Russia's gone, there's this void, right? And China's trying to fill the void. Chinese are not like, acting diplomatic enough to fill that void, and there's, it's all like we're on this imbalance, I believe. And then Russia becomes a rogue actor kind of in a way, that's how I see it, and then they are funding all these bad people. You see that all along, like what happened in the Middle East and all that stuff. >> You said there are different camps. We thought we were in your camp! We didn't expect to be spied on by you, or to have our rights downgraded by you. >> No, I understand but -- >> We thought we were on your side! >> But, but you have to guys to trust us also, like in a village. Let me tell you, I come from a village, that's why I use the villager as a hashtag in my twitter also. Like in village, there are usually one or two families which keep the village intact, that's our roles. >> Right. >> Like, I don't know if you have lived in a village or not -- >> Well, Bill, you're making some great statements. Where's the evidence on the surveillance, where can people find more information on this? Can you share? >> I think there's plenty of evidence, and I can send some stuff on, and I'm a little bit shocked given the awareness of the FISA Act, the Cloud Act, the fact that these things are in existence and they're not exactly unknown. And many people have been complaining about them for years. I mean, we've had Safe Harbor overturned, we've had Privacy Shield overturned, and these weren't just on a whim! >> Yeah, what does JD have in his hand? I want to know. >> The Edward Snowden book! (laughs) >> By Edward Snowden, which gives you plenty. But it wasn't enough, and it's something that we have to keep in mind, because we can always claim that whatever Edward Snowden wrote, that he made it up. Every publication by Edward Snowden is an avalanche of technical confirmation. One of the things that he described about the Cisco switches, which Bill prefers to quote every time, which is a proven case, there were bundles of researchers saying, "I told you guys!" Nobody paid attention to those researchers, and Edward Snowden was smart enough to get the mass media representation in there. But there's one thing, a question I have for Sabjeet, because in the two parties strategy, it is interesting that you always take out the European Union as part. And the European Union is a big player, and it will continue to grow. It has a growing amount of trade agreements with a growing amount of countries, and I still hope, and I think think Bill -- >> Well, I think the number of countries is reducing, you've just lost one! >> Only one. (Bill laughing loudly) Actually though, those are four countries under one kingdom, but that's another point. (Bill chortling heartily) >> Guys, final topic, 5G impact, 'cause you mentioned Cisco, couldn't help think about -- >> Let me finish please my question, John. >> Okay, go ahead. How would you the United States respond if the European Union would now legalize to spy on everybody and every company, and every governmental institution within the United States and say, "No, no, it's our privilege, we need that." How would the United States respond? >> You can try that and see economically what happens to you, that's how the village politics work, you have to listen to the mightier than you, and we are economically mightier, that's the fact. Actually it's hard to swallow fact for, even for anybody else. >> If you guys built a great app, I would use it, and surveil all you want. >> Yeah, but so this is going to be driven by the economics. (John laughing) But the -- >> That's exactly what John said. >> This is going to be driven by the economics here. The big U.S. cloud firms are got to find this ruling enormously difficult for them, and they are inevitably going to lobby for a level of reform. And I think a level of a reform is needed. Nobody on your side is actually arguing very vociferously that the Cloud Act and the discrimination against Europeans is actually a particularly good idea. The problem is that once you've done the reform, are we going to believe you when you say, "Oh, it's all good now, we've stopped it!" Because with Crypto AG scandal in Switzerland you weren't exactly honest about what you were doing. With the FISA courts, so I mean FISA secret courts, the secret warrants, how do we know and what proof can we have that you've stopped doing all these bad things? And I think one of the challenges, A, going to be the reform, and then B, got to be able to show that you actually got your act together and you're now clean. And until you can solve those two, many of your big tech companies are going to be at a competitive disadvantage, and they're going to be screaming for this reform. >> Well, I think that, you know, General Mattis said in his book about Trump and the United states, is that you need alliances, and I think your point about trust and executing together, without alliances, it really doesn't work. So, unless there's some sort of real alliance, (laughs) like understanding that there's going to be some teamwork here, (Bill laughing) I don't think it's going to go anywhere. So, otherwise it'll continue to be siloed and network based, right? So to the village point, if TikTok can become a massively successful app, and they're surveilling, so and then we have to decide that we're going to put up with that, I mean, that's not my decision, but that's what's goin' on here. It's like, what is TikTok, is it good or bad? Amazon sent out an email, and they've retracted it, that's because it went public. I guarantee you that they're talkin' about that at Amazon, like, "Why would we want infiltration by the Chinese?" And I'm speculating, I have no data, I'm just saying, you know. They email those out, then they pull it back, "Oh, we didn't mean to send that." Really, hmm? (laughs) You know, so this kind of -- >> But the TRA Balin's good, you always want to get TRA Balin out there. >> Yeah, exactly. There's some spying going on! So, this is the reality. >> So, John, you were talking about 5G, and I think you know, the role of 5G, you know, the battle between Cisco and Huawei, you just have to look at it this way, would you rather have the U.S. spy on you, or would you rather have China? And that's really your binary choice at this moment. And you know both is happening, and so the question is which one is better. Like, the one that you're in alliance with? The one that you're not in alliance with, the one that wants to bury you, and decimate your country, and steal all your secrets and then commercialize 'em? Or the one kind of does it, but doesn't really do it explicitly? So, you've got to choose. (laughs) >> It's supposed to be -- >> Or you can say no, we're going to create our own standard for 5G and kick both out, that's an option. >> It's probably not as straightforward a question as, or an answer to that question as you say, because if we were to fast-forward 50 years, I would argue that China is going to be the largest trading nation in the world. I believe that China is going to have the upper hand on many of these technologies, and therefore why would we not want to use some of their innovation, some of their technology, why would we not actually be more orientated around trading with them than we might be with the U.S.? I think the U.S. is throwing its weight around at this moment in time, but if we were to fast-forward I think looking in the longterm, if I had to put my money on Huawei or some of its competitors, I think given its level of investments in research and whatever, I think the better longterm bet is Huawei. >> No, no, actually you guys need to pick a camp. It's a village again. You have to pick a camp, you can't be with both guys. >> Global village. >> Oh, right, so we have to go with the guys that have been spying on us? >> How do you know the Chinese haven't been spying on you? (Ray and John laughing loudly) >> I think I'm very happy, you find a backdoor in the Huawei equipment and you show it to us, we'll take them to task on it. But don't start bullying us into making decisions based on what-ifs. >> I don't think I'm, I'm not qualified to represent the U.S., but what we would want to say is that if you look at the dynamics of what's going on, China, we've been studying that as well in terms of the geopolitical aspects of what happens in technology, they have to do what they're doing right now. Because in 20 years our population dynamics go like this, right? You've got the one child policy, and they won't have the ability to go out and fight for those same resources where they are, so what they're doing makes sense from a country perspective and country policy. But I think they're going to look like Japan in 20 years, right? Because the xenophobia, the lack of immigration, the lack of inside stuff coming in, an aging population. I mean, those are all factors that slow down your economy in the long run. And the lack of bringing new people in for ideas, I mean that's part of it, they're a closed system. And so I think the longterm dynamics of every closed system is that they tend to fail versus open systems. So, I'm not sure, they may have better technology along the way. But I think a lot of us are probably in the camp now thinking that we're not going to aid and abet them, in that sense to get there. >> You're competing a country with a company, I didn't say that China had necessarily everything rosy in its future, it'll be a bigger economy, and it'll be a bigger trading partner, but it's got its problems, the one child policy and the repercussions of that. But that is not one of the things, Huawei, I think Huawei's a massively unlimited company that has got a massive lead, certainly in 5G technology, and may continue to maintain a lead into 6G and beyond. >> Oh yeah, yeah, Huawei's done a great job on the 5G side, and I don't disagree with that. And they're ahead in many aspects compared to the U.S., and they're already working on the 6G technologies as well, and the roll outs have been further ahead. So, that's definitely -- >> And they've got a great backer too, the financer, the country China. Okay guys, (Ray laughing) let's wrap up the segment. Thanks for everyone's time. Final thoughts, just each of you on this core issue of the news that we discussed and the impact that was the conversation. What's the core issue? What should people think about? What's your solution? What's your opinion of how this plays out? Just final statements. We'll start with Bill, Ray, Sarbjeet and JD. >> All I'm going to ask you is stop spying on us, treat us equally, treat us like the allies that we are, and then I think we've got to a bright future together! >> John: Ray? >> I would say that Bill's right in that aspect in terms of how security agreements work, I think that we've needed to be more explicit about those. I can't represent the U.S. government, but I think the larger issue is really how do we view privacy, and how we do trade offs between security and convenience, and you know, what's required for personalization, and companies that are built on data. So, the sooner we get to those kind of rules, an understanding of what's possible, what's a consensus between different countries and companies, I think the better off we will all be a society. >> Yeah, I believe the most important kind of independence is the economic independence. Like, economically sound parties dictate the terms, that's what U.S. is doing. And the smaller countries have to live with it or pick the other bigger player, number two in this case is China. John said earlier, I think, also what JD said is the fine balance between national security and the privacy. You can't have, you have to strike that balance, because the rogue actors are sitting in your country, and across the boundaries of the countries, right? So, it's not that FISA is being fought by Europeans only. Our internal people are fighting that too, like how when you are mining our data, like what are you using it for? Like, I get concerned too, when you can use that data against me, that you have some data against me, right? So, I think it's the fine balance between security and privacy, we have to strike that. Awesome. JD? I'll include a little fake check, fact check, at the moment China is the largest economy, the European Union is the second largest economy, followed directly by the USA, it's a very small difference, and I recommend that these two big parties behind the largest economy start to collaborate and start to do that eye to eye, because if you want to balance the economical and manufacturing power of China, you cannot do that as being number two and number three. You have to join up forces, and that starts with sticking with the treaties that you signed, and that has not happened in the past, almost four years. So, let's go back to the table, let's work on rules where from both sides the rights and the privileges are properly reflected, and then do the most important thing, stick to them! >> Yep, I think that's awesome. I think I would say that these young kids in high school and college, they need to come up and solve the problems, this is going to be a new generational shift where the geopolitical landscape will change radically, you mentioned the top three there. And new alliances, new kinds of re-imagination has to be there, and from America's standpoint I'll just say that I'd like to see lawmakers have, instead of a LinkedIn handle, a GitHub handle. You know, when they all go out on campaign talk about what code they've written. So, I think having a technical background or some sort of knowledge of computer science and how the internet works with sociology and societal impact will be critical for our citizenships to advance. So, you know rather a lawyer, right so? (laughs) Maybe get some law involved in that, I mean the critical lawyers, but today most people are lawyers in American politics, but show me a GitHub handle of that congressman, that senator, I'd be impressed. So, that's what we need. >> Thanks, good night! >> Ray, you want to say something? >> I wanted to say something, because I thought the U.S. economy was 21 trillion, the EU is sittin' at about 16, and China was sitting about 14, but okay, I don't know. >> You need to do math man. >> Hey, we went over our 30 minutes time, we can do an hour with you guys, so you're still good. (laughs) >> Can't take anymore. >> No go on, get in there, go at it when you've got something to say. >> I don't think it's immaterial the exact size of the economy, I think that we're better off collaborating on even and fair terms, we are -- >> We're all better off collaborating. >> Yeah. >> Gentlemen -- >> But the collaboration has to be on equal and fair terms, you know. (laughs) >> How do you define fair, good point. Fair and balanced, you know, we've got the new -- >> We did define fair, we struck a treaty! We absolutely defined it, absolutely! >> Yeah. >> And then one side didn't stick to it. >> We will leave it right there, and we'll follow up (Bill laughing) in a later conversation. Gentlemen, you guys are good. Thank you. (relaxing electronic music)

(calm music) >> Announcer: From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a CUBE Conversation. >> Welcome to this CUBE Conversation. I'm Lisa Martin, and today, I'm talking to Ivanti again and Intel, some breaking news. So please welcome two guests, the EVP and Chief Product Officer of Ivanti, Nayaki Nayyar. She's back, and we've also got the VP and GM of Business Client Salute Platforms for Intel, Stephanie Hallford. Nayaki and Stephanie, it's great to have you on the program. >> It's great to be back here with you Lisa, and Stephanie glad to have you here with us, thank you. >> Thank you, we're excited >> Yeah, you guys are going to break some news for us, so let's go ahead and start. Nayaki, hot off the presses is Ivanti's announcement of its new hyper-automation platform, Ivanti Neurons, helping organizations now in this new next normal of so much remote work. Now, just on the heels of that, you're announcing a new strategic partnership with Intel. Tell me about that. >> So Lisa, like we announced, our Ivanti Neurons platform that is helping our customers and all the IT organizations around the world to deal with this explosive growth of remote workers, the devices that would work is used, the data that it's getting from those devices, and also the security challenges, and Neurons really help address what we call discover all the devices, manage those devices, self-heal those devices, self-secure the devices, and with this partnership with Intel, we are extremely excited about the potential our customers and the benefits that customers can get. Intel is offering what they call Device as a Service, which includes both the hardware and software, and with this partnership, we are announcing the integration between Intel's vPro platform and Ivanti's Neurons platform, which is what we are so excited about. Our joint customers, joint enterprises that are using both the products can now benefit from this out of the box integration to take advantage of this Device as a Service combined offer. >> So Stephanie, talk to us from Intel's perspective. This is an integration of Intel's Endpoint Management Assistant with Ivanti Neurons. How does this drive up the value for the EMA solution for your customers who are already using it? >> Right, well, so vPro is just to step everyone back, vPro is the number one enterprise platform trusted now for over 14 years. We are in a vast majority of enterprises around the world, and that's because vPro is essentially our best performing CPUs, our highest level of security, our highest level manageability, which is our EMA or "Emma" manageability solution, which Ivanti is integrating, and also stability, so that is the promise to IT managers for a stable, the Intel Stable Image platform, and what that allows is IT managers to know that we will keep as much stability and fast forward and push through any fixes as quickly as possible on those vPro devices because we understand that IT networks usually QUAL, you know, not all at one time, but it's sequential. So vPro is our number one enterprise built for business, validated, enabled, and we're super excited today because we're taking that remote manageability solution that comes with vPro, and we are marrying it with Ivanti's top class in point management solution, and Ivanti is a world leader in managing and protecting endpoints, and today more than ever, because IT's remote and Intel. For instance, our IT over one weekend had to figure out how to support a hundred thousand remote workers, so the ability for Ivanti to now have our remote manageability in band, out of band, on-prem, in the cloud, it really rounds out. Ivanti's already fantastic world-class solution, so it's a fantastic start to what I foresee is going to be a great partnership. >> And probably a big target install base. Now, can you talk to me a little bit about COVID as a catalyst for this partnership? So many companies, the stuff they talked about a great example of Intel pivoting over a weekend for a hundred thousand people. We're hearing so many different numbers of an explosion of devices, but also experts and even C-suite from tech companies projecting maybe 30 to 40% of the workforce only will go back, so talk to me about COVID as really driving the necessity for organizations to benefit from this type of technology. >> Yeah, so Lisa, like Stephanie said, right, as Intel had to take hundred thousand employees remote over a weekend, that is true for pretty much every company, every organization, every enterprise independent of industry vertical that they had to take all their workforce and move them to be primarily remote workers, and the stats of BFC is what used to be, I would say, three to four percent before COVID of remote working. Post-COVID or during COVID, as we say, it's going to be around 30, 40, 50%, and this is a conversation and a challenge. Every IT organization, every C-level exec, and, in most cases, I'm also seeing this become a board conversation that they're trying to figure out not just how to support remote workers for a short time, but for a longer time as this becomes the new normal or the next normal, whatever you call that, Lisa, and really helping employees through this transition and providing what we call a seamless experience as we employees are working from home or on the move or location agnostic, being able to provide a experience, a service experience that understands what employee's preferences are, what their needs are, and providing that consumer with experiences, what this joint offering between Intel and Ivanti really brings together for our joint customers. >> So you talked about this being elevated to the board level conversation, you know, and this is something that we're hearing a lot of that suddenly there's so much more visibility and focus on certain parts of businesses, and survival is, so many businesses are at risk. Stephanie, I'd like to get your perspective on how this joint solution with Intel and Ivanti, do you see this as an opportunity to give your customers not just a competitive advantage, but for maybe some of those businesses who might be in jeopardy like a survival strategy? >> Absolutely, I mean, the, you know, while we both Ivanti and Intel have our own IT challenges and we support our workers directly, we are broadly experienced in supporting many many companies that frankly, perhaps, weren't planning for these types of instances, remote manageability overnight, security and cyber threats getting more and more sophisticated, but, you know, tech companies like Ivanti, like Intel, we have been thinking about this and experiencing and planning for these things and bringing them out in our products for some time, and so I think it is a great opportunity when we come together and we bring that, you know, IP expertise and IT expertise, both IP technical and that IT insight, and we bring it to customers who are of all industries, whether it be healthcare or financial or medium businesses who are increasingly being managed by service providers who can utilize this type of device as a service and endpoint manageability. Most companies and certainly all IT managers will tell you they're overwhelmed. They are traditionally squeezed on budget, and they have the massive requirement to take their companies entirely cloud and cloud oriented or maybe a hybrid of cloud and on-prem, and they really would prefer to leave network security and network management to experts, and that's where we can come in with our platform, with our intelligence, we work hard to continue to build that product roadmap to stay ahead of cyber threats. Our vPro platform, for instance, has what we call Intel Hardware Shield to set up technologies that actually protects against cyber attack, even under the OS, so if the OS is down or there's a cyber attack around the OS, we actually can lock down the BIOS and the Firmware and alert the OS and have that communication, which allows the system to protect those areas that need to be protected or lock down or encrypt those areas, so this is the type of thing we bring to the party, and than Ivanti has that absolute in Point Management credibility that there's just, I think, ease, So if IT managers are worried about moving to the cloud and getting workers remote and, you know, managing cyber threats, they really would prefer to leave this management and security of their network to experts like Ivanti, and so we're thrilled to kind of combine that expertise and give IT managers a little bit of peace of mind. >> I think it's even more than giving IT managers a peace of mind, but so talk to me, Nayaki, about how these technologies work together. So for example, when we talked about the Neurons and the hyper-automation platform that you just announced, you were talking about the discovery, the self-healing, self-securing of all these devices within an organization that they may not even know they have EDGE devices on-prem cloud. Talk to me about how these two technologies work together. Is it discovering all these devices first, self-security, self-healing? How does then EMA come into play? >> So let me give an analogy in our consumer world, Lisa. We all are used to or getting used to cars where they automatically heal themselves. I have a car sitting in my garage that I haven't taken to a workshop for last four years since I bought it, so it's almost a similar experience that combined offering things to our customers where all these endpoints, like Stephanie said, we are, I would say, one of the leading providers in the endpoint management where we support today. Ivanti supports over 40 million endpoints for our customers, and combining that with a strong vPro platform from Intel, that combined offering, which is what we call Device as a Service, so that the IT departments or the enterprises don't have to really worry about how we are discovering all of those devices, managing those devices. Self-healing, like if there's any performance issues, configuration drift issues, if there are any security vulnerabilities, anomalies on those devices, it automatically heals them. I mean, that is the beauty of it where IT doesn't have to worry about trying to do it reactively. These neurons detect and self-heal those devices automatically in the background, and almost augmenting IT with what I call these automation bots that are constantly running in the background on these devices and self-healing and self-securing those devices. So that's a benefit every organization, every company, every enterprise, every IT department gets from this joint offering, and if I were on their side, on the other side, I can really sleep at night knowing those devices are now not just being managed, but are secure because now we are able to auto-heal or auto-secure those devices in the background continuously. >> Let's talk about speed cause that's one of the things, speed and scale, we talk about with every different technology, but right now there's so much uncertainty across the globe, so for joint customers, Stephanie talked about the, you know, the large install base of customers on the vPro platform, how quickly would they be able to leverage this joint solution to really get those endpoints under management and start dialing down some of the risks like device sprawl and security threats? >> So the joint offering is available today and being released the integration between both the platforms with this announcement, so companies that have both of our platforms and solutions can start implementing it and really getting the benefit out of it. They don't have to wait for another three months or six months. Right after this release, they should be able to integrate the two platforms, discover everything that they have across their entire network, manage those, secure those devices and use these neurons to automatically heal and service those endpoints. >> So this is something that could get up and running pretty quickly? >> It's an AutoBox connection and integration that we worked very closely, Stephanie's team and my team had been working for months now, and, yeah, this is an exciting announcement not just from the product perspective, but also the benefit it gives our customers, the speed, the accuracy, and the service experience that they can provide to their end user, employees, customers, and consumers, I think, that's super beneficial for everyone. >> Absolutely, and then that 360 degree view. Stephanie, we'll wrap it up with you. Talk to us about how this new strategic partnership is a facilitator or an accelerant of Intel's device as a service vision. >> Well, you know, first off, I wanted to commend Nayaki's team because our engineers were so impressed. They, you know, felt like they were working with the PhD advanced version of so many other engineering partners they'd ever come across, so I think we have a very strong engineering culture between our two companies and the speed at which we were able to integrate our solutions, and at the same time start thinking about what we may be able to do in the future, should we put our heads together and start doing a joint product roadmap on opportunities in the future, network connectivity, wifi connectivity, all sorts of ideas, so huge congratulations to the engineering teams because the speed at which we were able to integrate and get a product offering out was impressive, but, you know, secondarily, on to your question on device as a service, this is going to be by far where the future moves. We know that companies will tend to continue to look for ways to have sustainability in their environments, and so when you have Device as a Service, you're able to do things like into end supporting that device from its start into a network to when you end of life a device and how you end of life that device has severe, some sustainability and costs, you know, complexities, and if we're able to manage that device from end to end and provide servicing to alert IT managers and self-heal before problems happen, that helps obviously not only with business models and, you know, protecting data, but it also helps in keeping systems running and being alert to when systems begin to degrade or if there are issues or if it's time to refresh because the hardware is not new enough to take advantage of the new software capabilities, then you're able to end of life that device in a sustainable way, in a safe way, and, even to some degree, provide some opportunity for remediation of data and, you know, remote erase and continue to provide that security all the way into the end, so when we look at device as a service, it's more than just one aspect. It's really taking a device and being responsible for the security, the manageability, the self-healing from beginning to end, and I know that all IT managers need that, appreciate that, and frankly don't have the time or skillsets to be able to provide that in their own house. So I think there's the beginnings today, and I think we have a huge upside to what we can do in the future. I look at Intel's strengths in enterprise and how long we have been, you know, operating in enterprises around the world. Ivanti's, you know, in the vast majority of Fortune 100s, and when you've got kind of engineering powerhouses that are coming together and brainstorming it's, I think, it's a great partnership for relief for customer pain points in the future, which unfortunately there's going to be more probably. >> And this is just the beginning. >> I think that's one thing we can guarantee. It's what, sorry? >> Yeah, and it's just the beginning. This partnership is just the beginning. You will see lot more happening between both the companies as we define the roadmap into the future, so we are super excited about all the work, the joint teams, and, Stephanie, I want to take this opportunity to thank you, your leadership, and your entire organization for helping us with this partnership. >> We're excited by it, we are, we know it's just the beginning of great things to come. >> Well, just the beginning means we have to have more conversations. The cultural fit really sounds like it's really there, and there's tight alignment with Ivanti and Intel. Ladies, thank you so much for joining me. Nayaki, great to have you back on the program. >> Thank you, thank you, Lisa. Thank you for hosting us, and, Stephanie, it's always a pleasure talking to you, thank you. >> Likewise, looking forward to the launch and all the customer reactions. >> Absolutely. >> Yes, all right, thanks Nayaki, thanks Stephanie. For my guests, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching this CUBE Conversation. 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>>From Miami beach, Florida. It's the queue covering a chronics global cyber summit 2019 brought to you by Acronis. >>Okay, welcome back. Everyone's the cubes covers two days here in Miami beach. The Fontainebleau hotel for the Kronos has global cyber summit 2019. It's inaugural event around a new category emerging called cyber protection. Um, this isn't a wave that's going to be part of the modernization a week we've been calling cloud 2.0 or whatever you want to call it. A complete modernization of the it technology stack and development environment includes core data center to the edge and beyond. Our next guest is Dan havens, chief growth officer per Chronis. Dan, thanks for coming on. Appreciate it. And thank you for having me, Dan. So, uh, what does chief growth officer mean? You guys obviously are growing, so obviously we see some growth there. Yeah, numbers are there. What she, what she, we have a couple of divisions in the company where we see we can really accelerate the business. >>So we came in and we wanted to make some large investments here. One of those areas was sports. You're seeing race cars out here on the floor, you're seeing all kinds of baseball teams, soccer teams, and we're talking to everybody. We have 40 teams now that are using our technology for competitive advantage on the field. Uh, the other areas, OEM, so, uh, original equipment manufacturers, everybody from making a camera to a server somewhere, having a Cronus be embedded, that's a big angle for us and we just didn't have a lot of focus. So I came into to build those divisions. I've actually joined the CEO before in a prior life in his last company and did something similar for him on a similar, uh, back there and we had violent success. So yeah, it's been a lot of fun. I've been here a year and a half and we're killing it. >>We got triple digit growth in the sporting category and similar in the OEM. It's interesting, you know, I look at a lot of these growth companies and the kind of a formula. You see, you guys have a very efficient and strong product platform engineering group. A lot of developers, a lot of smart people in the company, and a strong customer facing for the lack of a better word, field. The group you're in, you're involved, this is not, and you got marketing supporting it in the middle. Yep. So nice, efficient organizational structure on a massive way. But cyber, because this isn't your grandfather's data projection, this is a platform. What's the pitch? So the key here for us is we have to always say, and, and it, it's, it's hard to simplify and we're easy. In fact, we're cost-effective. Sometimes I'll even say I'm cheap and I'm easy. >>And that does not go out of style for an enterprise, right? So our ability to take good old fashioned backup and these things that other people need and basically extend that across. Now I can have one window where I can control, keep 'em out. If somebody gets in or from the inside or a disaster happens. I from this one place can recover my data. I'm secure with my data. I have the ability to notarize my data. So this one, and by the way, key simple interface. Customers love simple. This one simple interface to be able to do that. Now it takes a lot of engineering that goes behind that. I have plenty of, I have fancy engineering degrees and all that, but I try forget that when I'm talking to a customer because at the end of the day it's gotta make sense. A mind that doesn't know, says no. >>And I think we do a pretty good job of simplifying the message, but as they get under the covers and they roll it out, they recognize that there's, you know, we, we, we have more engineers per employee capita than any company that would have 1600 employees. Simple, easy to use. It reduces the steps it takes to do something as a winning business model. You kind of come from that school you mentioned, you know, cheap and easy. That's what is key. Yeah. But we're in a world where complexity is increasing and costs are increasing. Yep. These are two dynamics that are facing every enterprise, cyber it everywhere. What's your story when you want to educate that person so they can get to that? Yes. I want to work with you guys. What's that? What's that getting to? Yes. Processed motion look like. So the beautiful part is is we sell software right now. >>Software can be purchased complex. You install it, you can figure, you do everything yourself. We also can sell that from a cloud standpoint. So now you consume it like a service. Just like you consume Netflix at home, right? I can now consume this protection as a service. You have bolts spectrums covered. Most enterprises are somewhere in the middle. We call that hybrid. So the idea here is that there's going to be components where this data's not leaving these four walls. It might be government agency, it might be some compliance factor, but the ability to be able to say yes anywhere on that spectrum, it makes it very easy for an executive to say, okay, but we have a very, as you leverage the cloud, the OnRamp for this can be as simple as turning on the surface and pointing it at a data source. I mean, you're a student of history, obviously even in this business for awhile, you've done been there longer than you'd think. >>Data protection was kind of like that. Afterthought, backup data recovery all based upon, yeah, we might have an outage or a flood or hurricane Sandy who knows what's going to happen. You know, some force majority out there might happen, but security is a constant disrupter of business continuity. The data's being hijacked and ransomware to malware attacks. This is a major disruption point of a world that was supposed to be a non disruptive operational value proposition. Yeah, so the world has changed. They went from a niche, well, we've got their architecture of throwing back up. You've got to think about it from day one at the beginning. This seems to be your, your story for the company. You think about security from the beginning with data protection. There's only one club in the bag, so to speak. Talk about that dynamic and how's that translating into your customer's storytelling customer engagements to show you, you used an interesting word at the beginning, disaster recovery years ago, I started my tech industry in 1992 right? >>Disaster recovery is when we're going to have a flood or a hurricane and the building's going to burn down. What we find is most of our customers, that's certainly happens, but that's not the driver. The driver now is somebody after my data because the world has changed. Not only has the amount of data we're collecting change, but the ability to illegally monetize somebody else's data has become reality and you have social media that is socializes if you get breached and so forth. So there's a number of drivers. Number one, I don't want to be turned out of business. Number two, I don't want to be ransom. Then number three, I certainly don't want to do the cover of the wall street journal tomorrow morning as a top executive who looked past data. We literally watch brands, I won't mention the brand now, but a very large fortune 1000 what's called out yesterday. >>We see it every few days and we watched the carnage of their brand get deluded because they weren't protected. So I think it's the perfect storm up. I've got a ton of data, so it's coming in from all directions. Secondly, I I'm concerned about, you know, my brand and been able to protect that data and then you know, what do I do? And the disaster in this case is not necessarily flood or fire. It's that somebody from the inside or outside got in the gym. Pretend that I'm a decision maker. I'm like, my head's exploding. I'm got all this carnage going on. I don't want to get fired yet. I know I'm exposed. Nothing's yet happened yet. Maybe I settled the ransomware thing, but I know I'm not in a good place. What's your story to any, what's your pitch to me? What's in it for me? Tell me. >>Tell me the posture and the, well, we're halfway home. If you say, I know I'm not in a good place, right? Cause oftentimes somebody has to get bit first or they have to see their neighbor get bit first and then they say, Hey come in. One of my first plays would be let's find out what place you really are. I can do that very quickly and an assessment, we can gather your systems, we can get a sense for our, where's your data? Where it's flowing from. What are you doing? What are you doing to protect it? We typically will come back and there's going to be spots where there's blind spots. Sometimes they're fully naked, right? But the good news is is now we know the problem, so let's not waste any time, but you can get onboard and baby steps or you know, we can bandaid it or we can really go into full surgery however you want to move forward. >>But the idea is recognizing this has to be addressed because it's a beast. Every single device that's out there on the floor, in any enterprise, any company is a way in and a POC are critical for your business model. You want to get them certainly candy taste, show the value quickly has a POC, gets structured unit assessment. You come in on a narrow entry nail something quick, get a win. What's the, what's the playbook? Love PLCs because we're so fast and easy meaning oftentimes you do PLCs cause you're complex software and you're trying to prove your point and so forth. I love to push a POC cause I can do it inside of days, but I get the customer to take the drive. It's just on the car lot. If I get you to drive it down the block, you're not bringing it back. You're bringing it home to the neighbors. >>Right. That is the case with our software and our hit rate is key. But again it's because it's straightforward and it's easy. So though most sales cycles don't push for pilot. I can't wait to get a pilot but we don't need 30 days to do it in a couple of days. They're going to recognize I can do this too. You have a good track record of POC. If I get, this is going to be the most conceding. You might have to edit this out. If I get an audience, I will win. That is the most conceited statement on the planet. And if I get the audience and they will look, and this is why we use the sports teams. Sports teams are the cool kids using this. And if I get an executive to say, what are you guys doing with the red Sox? If I could get him or her to look, it's game over. >>Hey being bad ass and having some swagger. It's actually a good thing if you got the goods to back it up. That's not fun. Piece here is that the product works well and it's not this massive mountain to hurdle. It is. We can get started today and take bites as we go, but you mentioned sports. Let's get into that talk track. As we have been covering sports data for now six years on the cube in San Francisco. We were briefly talking about it last night at the reception, but I think sports teams encapsulates probably the most acute use case of digital transformation because they have multiple theaters that are exploding. They got to run their business, they got a team to manage and they got fan experience and their consumers, so you've got consumerization of it. You got security of your customers either in a physical venue from a potential terrorist disaster could happen to just using analytics to competitive venture from the Moneyball model to whatever sports really encapsulates what I call the poster child of using digital into a business model that works. >>You've been successful with sports. We interviewed Brian shield yesterday. Yup. Red Sox, vice-president technology. He was very candid. He's like, look it, we use analytics. It helps us get a competitive, not going to tell you the secrets, but we have other issues that people not thinking about drone strikes while the games going on, potential terrorist attacks, gathering the people, you know, adding on East sports stadium to Fenway park. They have a digital business model integrating in real time with a very successful consumer product and business in sports. This has been a good market for you guys. What's been the secret to success? >> Explosive market? Couple things. First off, you summarized well, sports teams are looking for competitive advantage, so anything that can come in under that guys is gonna get some attention plus data, fan data, system data, ticket data. Um, in baseball, they're studying every single pitch of pictures ever thrown. >>They have video on everything. This is heavy lift data, right? So a place to put it saved money, a place to protect it, a pace to access it so that all of my Scouts that are out in the field with a mobile device have the ability to upload or evaluate a player while they're out still on them and on the field somewhere maybe in another country. And then add the added caveat in our sexiest piece. And that's artificial intelligence. You mentioned Moneyball, right? Uh, the, the entire concept of, of stat of statistics came out in the Moneyball concept and you know, we all saw the movie and we all read the book, but at the end of the day, this is the next step to that, which is not just written down statistics. Now we can analyze data with machine learning and we have very, we have unique baseball examples where there's absolutely no doubt they have the data. >>It's the ability to, how do I turn that to where I can be more competitive on our racing team. So we're actually working with teams improving, changing the car on the track during the race, using our software fact. We always look forward to opportunities where somebody says, Hey, come in and talk about that because it's incredibly sexy to see. Um, but sports are fun because first off they're the cool kids. Secondly, they're early adopters. If it's gonna give competitive advantage, uh, and third, they hit all the vectors. Tons of data have to protect it. >> It's our life in the business models digital too. So the digital transformation is in prime time. We cannot ignore the fact that people want wifi. They got Instagram, Facebook, all of these, they're all conscious of social media. There are all kinds of listening sports club, they have to be, they have to be hip, right? >>And being out front like that, think about the data they have come in at. And so not just to be smart on the field, they have to be smart with our customer. They're competing with that customer for four of their major sports or whatever. Major sports in the, in the, in the, in our case in this fashionable to be hip is cool for the product, but now you think about how they run their business. They've got suppliers, um, that have data and trusting suppliers with data's. There's a difficult protection formula. They've got national secure security issues. They have to protect, well they have to protect as a big part, but they have to protect, well first off these, these archives of data that are of 20 races ago or of this pitcher pitched three years ago and I have a thousand of his pitches and I'm looking for towels. >>That is, that's mission critical. But also, uh, to boot you have just business functions where I'm a, I'm a team and I have a huge telco sponsor and we are shifting back and forth and designing what their actual collateral is going to be in the stadium. They're actually using a Chronis to be able to do that up in the cloud where they can both collaborate on that. Not only doing it, but being able to protect it that way. It's, it's more efficient for them. It's interesting. I asked Brian shield this question, I asked her how does baseball flex and digital with the business model of digital with the success of the physical product or their actual product baseball. And he said an interesting thing. He's like the ROI models just get whacked out because what's the ROI of an investment in technology? It used to be total cost of ownership. >>The class that's right under the under the iceberg to sharpen whatever you use, you use that. We don't use that. We think about other consequences like a terrorist attack. That's right. So so the business model, ROI calculation shifting, do you have those kinds of conversations with some of these big teams and these sports teams? Because you know they win the world series, their brand franchise goes up if they win the national championship, but whatever their goal is has real franchise value. There's numbers on that. There's also the risk of say an attack or some sort of breach. >> Well, I won't mention the names, I won't mention the teams by name, but I have a half a dozen teams right now and two that are actually rolling out that are doing facial recognition just for security, a fan's entering their stadium. So they are taking the ownership of the safety of their fan to the level of doing visual or facial recognition coming into their stadium. >>Obviously the archive to measure against is important and we can archive that, but they're also using artificial intelligence for that. So you're absolutely right. They owe their fan a safe experience, not only a safe experience with good experience and so forth. And we love to be associated whenever we can with wins and losses. But to your point, how do you get, or how do you show a TCO on a disaster and nobody wants to, and by the way, we've seen enough of that to know it's looming. And there's also the supply chain too. I can buy a hotdog and a beer from Aramark, which is the red socks. They say supplier that's not owned by the red Sox. They have a relationship. But my data's in, I'm a consumer of the red Sox. I'm procuring a, you know, some food or service from a vendor. Yeah, yeah. My data's out there. >>So who protects that? Well, these are unique questions that come up all the time. Again, that's a business decision for the customer. The idea is with cloud collaboration, it's technically quite easy, but again, they have to decide where they're gonna commingle their data, how they're going to share. But the idea here is, again, back to the spectrum, fully cloud and accessible and locked down airtight government's scenario where we have a, you know, a lock bottom line is you get to pick where you want to be on there and there's going to be times where my example of talking to the, uh, the telco vendor, we're, we're actually going to share our data together and we're going to make us faster, make a quicker return and design this collateral for our stadium faster. Those are business decisions, but they're allowed because it, Coronas can be as hybrid as you need to be along the site. >>And again, that resonates with an executive. They never want to be wearing handcuffs and they don't want to pay overpay for stuff to not use our stuff. And if you decide to consume cloud, you, you just pay as you go. It's like your electricity bill. All right. So the red Sox are a customer of you guys. You have or they use your service. What other sports teams have you guys engaged with who you're talking to? Give a taste of some of the samples. So European, we have a couple of formula one teams. We have a racing point. We have the Williams team and formula E we have to cheetah the dragon team. We have a adventury, we also have Neo. So we have a good presence in the racing clubs. We have a ton of a world rally cars and, and, and motorcycle motorcross and so forth. >>Then you step over into European football. So we, we, we started in cars and recognize this is hot. So then we got our first, uh, European team, uh, and we had arsenal. As a matter of fact, we have one of the legends here signing with us today. And you know, I mean, they're rock stars, right? People follow them. Anyway, so we have arsenal and we did man city. Um, and we just landed, uh, Liverpool just did that this quarter, two weeks ago. I literally just, the ink is still drying. Um, and then you move into the United States, which I brought the, you know, I brought the circus to town on January one, 2019. First when was the Boston red Sox. We quickly followed that up. You'll see us on the home run fence at San Diego Padres. Volts bought for different reasons, but both very sexy reasons. So it's the reason. >>What were the main drivers? So in the case of the Boston red Sox, it was, it was a heavy lift on video. A lot of on the protection side. Um, the, uh, San Diego was file sync and share. So the example I was giving of, um, being able to share with your largest telco vendor or with your largest investors slash sponsor for your stadium, um, that was the driver. Now what's funny about both is as they get started, he's always expanding, right? So we have the baseball teams, we did land this quarter, the Dallas stars. So that's our first hockey club. I really want. And my goal is to try to get a couple in each of the main four categories and then some of the subs, um, just cause you get the cool kids, you get a tipping point. Everybody then wants to know what's going on. I have a hundred and play. >>And so we, we typically try to qualify regional where it makes sense. Um, uh, we're, you know, we're very close with a team here in the region. So, you know, they, in the feedback from, from the, from the successes you had implementations, why, what's uh, what's been the feedback from the customers. So here's the file in this. Sounds like I'm just tripping with sales guy and I apologize. Warning signs. Okay. If they use it, we're home free. So when you get Brian or any one of these guys that are using it, all I have to do is make sure that a new customer hears this person who has no reason to say anything else and just expose them to it. Because it's this unknown, scary thing that we're trying to protect against and being able to do that and have the freedom of how aggressive or you know, what metaphor am I going to cover that? >>And then also, uh, you know, the, obviously the economics work is you pay as you go. Um, it's, you know, it's a good story. Well, Dan, congratulations on the success. Um, great to see you guys really digging in and getting those PLCs and being successful. We watching your growth. Final question for you yes. Is all the data and the patterns that you see and all of customers. What's the number one reason why a Cronus is selected and why you women? I think that's an interesting question and I think that it's a couple of reasons. Number one, we work, we're easy. We have an enormous footprint. So there's a lot to reference from. Many people have already used us on the consumer side, so we're safe. So that's one reason I would also tell you however, that we have a great ecosystem because a Kronos is different than most software companies. >>Most software companies have a huge outside sales force that sells direct to customer a Chronis. Everybody here is a partner. We sell through a service provider to a channel member through a, through a, a, a, an ISV. Um, and then we have some direct enterprise. But the idea is there's a variety of solutions that can be baked on this foundation. And I think people like that variety. I, they, they like the, like the freedom of I'm not just trapped with this one thing. I can buy it and all options are available and I will tell you an it, nobody wants to be locked down. Everybody wants options, safety in numbers. They want their data protected with the whole cyber land lens. And they know everything's changing every six months. Something's different. And I don't want to be handcuffed in my desk. I want all options available. I think that's our best value from all right, Dan, thanks for coming on. Dan havens, chief growth officer, but Krohn is weird. The Chronis global cyber summit. I'm John Ford. Stay tuned for more cube coverage after this short break.

>> Announcer: Live from London, England, it's theCUBE, covering AWS Summit London 2019, brought to you by Amazon Web Services. >> Today, we're here at the AWS Summit live at the ExCel Center in London. I'm Susannah Streeter, and this is my cohost Dave Vellente, here today. Now, we've talked a lot about the benefits of Cloud and the opportunities, and also the challenges sometimes, for startups and other businesses. But, also, there has been massive growth of the use of Cloud services by public sector organizations. And our next two guests here on theCUBE today, really, this is your area of business isn't it? So, we have Johnny Hugill, who's from Public, but also Max Peterson, VP of Worldwide Public Sector, AWS. Thank you very much for coming on to talk to us. >> Thank you. >> Now it's really interesting, during the keynote speeches, I was really taken by one of the speeches from the Chief Digital Information Officer at the Ministry of Justice, Tom Read, and he says, "We don't innovate for professional advantage, we do it to take care of people." And, Johnny, this is what your business is about, isn't it? Trying to link up startups and public sector organizations, to ensure that more people are taken care of. >> Yeah, I mean, that's exactly right. I think what we've seen in sort of almost every other sector you can think of, is this big proliferation of startups, of new market entrant's of completely new companies, really kind of coming to dominate those markets. And we haven't quite seen as much of that as I would like to see in the public sector. So, what we're trying to do is help tech startups, help innovative new companies, to come in and ultimately to deliver better services for everyone. >> There is real concern, though, among traditional companies about this. For example, your local pharmacy concerned that a really big player is going to move in and take away what they do. How do you kind of bring them along and say, well actually, if you work with a startup, it could improve the way you do business and keep you in business. >> Totally. I think pharmacy is a really interesting example. Because, in the UK, we've seen a bunch of new digital-first pharmacies come in and completely transform how people can access their pharmacy. So, Echo is one example of a UK startup that, now, you can get door-to-door prescriptions, instead of having to go to your pharmacy, make appointments, you know, waste loads of time queuing. My view is that these organizations really have to kind of get up to speed with how things work in the wider digital economy. So, people have certain expectations for how services should be delivered, for how quickly they should be accessed, to be able to access things. I think government services are no different. That's pharmacies, that's schools, that's teaching, that's everything. >> We're here in London. How big is the UK in terms of the growth of your business? >> Max: Well, the UK has been a leader for a long time, so from the time that they undertook the government digital services business through the G Cloud, 11 iterations, with big ministries, like the UK MOJ that you heard, with big nonprofits, like Comic Relief, and everything in between, educational institutions, startups. We're very proud we've partnered with Public to help continue to encourage that kind of innovation in government technology. >> I think, when we last talked Max, you, John and I, I think we were in DC. >> I think it was. >> And you were helping us understand, look, this public sector is not just about DC. And you've got a number of activities. We interviewed several of theCUBE yesterday At AWS headquarters. One of the things we talked about was GDPR. We were having a conversation with a privacy expert earlier today. He said, you know, the big players really haven't, really weren't ready for GDPR. You made a point in DC last year, you said, day-one you guys were ready, end-to-end encryption, a number of other services. so, I wanted to circle back to you. >> Max: Sure. >> I said, okay, we gotta peel the onion. I gotta ask Max, put him on the spot. You guys really anticipated this, it's not like you were scrambling at the last minute. Is that fair to say, and I wonder, if, Johnny, if you could confirm or deny that. >> Well, I would tell you that at Amazon, we think security is job-zero. If we are not making sure that we are continuously raising the bar to improve customer security, security for small businesses, then we need to do a better job. A couple of examples: GDPR was a good one, where, two months before GDPR came into a lawful requirement, Amazon announced that we were GDPR compliant. So people could confidently build on top of Amazon. In the UK, early on in 2016, we delivered one of our advanced security services called AWS Shield, which gives everybody using the AWS Cloud in the UK and, in fact, around the world, automatic protection against DDoS. No additional cost. You get it by using the Cloud. Those are the types of security services that Amazon delivers, and probably one of the most important these days, when you're working with sensitive workloads, is encryption. On Amazon, it's check-the-box easy to implement encryption for your data on the fly or when it's at rest. >> So, I hear that a lot, about encryption, and how simple it is. You guys using encryption? Do you guys got it as part of your... >> So, we work with technology companies who want to work with government, so many of the companies we back are using encryption. As I'd say, some of the, sort of, particularly in policing and defense, and some of the more sensitive areas of the public sector, this stuff is really, really crucial. And you simply can't, kind of, get into government without being GDPR compliant, and without having all of the SAP security essentials. A lot of the companies we've backed, are using AWS Cloud, have gone on to win public sector business, so, in that sense, I'm sure everything's E-checked. >> Are there any special considerations, with regard to encryption, things like, out-of-scope requirements that I should think about as a customer, or is it really as simple as Max is saying, click a button and check a box and don't even worry about it, it's all taken care of. What's your advice to people on encryption, is it just encrypt everything? >> Yeah. >> Are there performance considerations or...? >> I mean, again, it totally depends on the scale of the contract, of the requirements that your kind of going off of. For big major contracts with Ministry of Justice, Ministry of Defense, there are a number of different performance, kind of requirements, that you need to consider. But, in general, I think, yeah, it's pretty quite straightforward. >> Yes, kind of a no-brainer. >> I think the answer is encrypt everything, everywhere, all the time. And that also means on premise, it also means on your devices, right? I mean it needs to be just the standard approach that people take to data protection these days. And, unfortunately, for many organizations internally, it's hard, and so that's why people are moving to Amazon so that they get that security built in. It actually is the number one reason why people are moving to AWS today. They want the built-in security and then, after that, they want speed and innovation. And there was a really interesting statistic today at the keynote. Did you hear that LSE, London School of Economics, just completed a study and they showed that 95% of all startups that happen today would not happen if they had to depend on legacy infrastructure, because it was hard and expensive, and that's, candidly, why being a startup in today's Cloud-based world, is a much better value proposition. You can focus on the problem rather than all of these important but complicated factors like encryption. >> The other thing there, the London School of Economics study showed is the productivity gains for those companies that use Cloud. Now, there haven't been obvious productivity gains as a result of technology across the board. We're starting to finally see the uptick. Remember back in the PC days, you could see productivity, you could see upticks everywhere except in productivity, and then all of a sudden it shot up. And we've been predicting, for a couple of years now, you're going to start to see it, Cloud being one of the reasons, other new technologies, and so that was another key finding of that study that I found intersting. >> Well, Sainsbury was up on the stage today again, and what they have now found, right, was they have found a 60% to 70% improvement in productivity. That was their number up on the stage. >> Interesting, you're talking about kind of legacy companies. We've got Ministry of Justice, in fact there was a bit of a battle wasn't there? Yeah, well we've been balanced since 1170. (laughter) >> That was hilarious wasn't it? >> Sainsbury's only 150 years old. >> MOJ got up and said, "Well, in this battle of historical significance, our mission started in 1178. (laugher) >> But it's interesting to talk about those, but really, your bread and butter, Johnny Hugill, is the startups, isn't it, trying to spot talent out there and think, who could I partner these guys up with. >> Yeah, totally right. A really important thing to any organization that is trying to innovate today can do is to market horizon scanning, really understand what is out there, what the art of the possible looks like, what the new technologies that are going to change the game look like, what these companies are actually really capable of, where their sweet spot of innovation is. >> Susannah: And they might not know that themselves. >> But it's a really difficult thing to know, especially if you think about what the kind of day-to-day job of government is, which is really running the country, right? It's pretty difficult to ask them, by the way guys, you also need to really understand what the prospects of AI startups are looking like across the country, or across the world. You need to understand who the kind of BotChain innovators are. It's a big challenge, and it's something that we are really trying to help them along the way. As you said, a lot of that is partnering with bigger companies, and kind of forming the right ecosystems of smaller companies, large companies that can help them scale, and kind of taking government on that journey along with them. >> Well, and the pace of change is another challenge. Six months in this business now is an eternity it seems like. I remember crypto was so hot a year ago, I mean I'm a fan of a lot of the underlying technologies. It was interesting to see how Amazon dealt with that. You asked a lot of questions, like what do you really need to do this, you guys came up with a couple of solutions there, but, keeping up with the pace of change is one of the, I would think, one of the key values that you provide. >> It's really a challenge, and I think now, in infant tech, 15% of the financial revenue in the UK has come from startups founded in the last five years, right? So a big legacy market as important as financial services, has just been completely turned on its head, by Revolut, by Monzo, by all these new guys. And in government we are going to see the same thing at some point. >> Dave: I'd observe that in financial services those are good examples, but the industry still hasn't been disrupted yet. Healthcare still hasn't been disrupted. They're both ripe for disruptions and it's happening. >> Max: Yeah, but I think if you look at those, that's part of what Johnny was saying. Some of these early industries, like finance, have maybe been the initial disrupters, but I do believe that there is a wave of opportunity and disruption coming in this whole gov-tech space. One of them recently was at Zuna. Zuna came in and acquired a contract with UK government that completely upended an old way of doing job search. They had a better mousetrap. And, fortunately, in this case, government recognized it and they used them. >> [Johnny} Yeah, I mean, I would say that was a really momentous thing. The most used website in the entire UK Government, which is the kind of find-a-job search site. As Zuna came along, replaced an incumbent supplier who'd been doing it for years, probably quite badly, came along with their new AI-driven platform, using AWS Cloud and are now just delivering a service that everyone prefers. >> Dave: I saw NHS has announced, what, a half-billion pound almost, transformation project, modernization. And when you peel the onion, you see a lot of startups. Behind the startups, you see a lot of Cloud going on because the Cloud attracts startups, startups are where the innovation is, and if you're going to modernize and spend a half-billion pounds, you better look to the innovation engine. >> Yeah, one of the things about the Cloud computing and one of the things about government policy that's critical, is that it actually encourages that kind of innovation. Because a lot of small companies are the source of new ideas, but, procurement sometimes gets in the way. One of the things that we think, in fact, has worked well is the UK G Cloud contract, where on the UK G Cloud, over 90% of the suppliers on the G Cloud contract are in fact small and medium enterprises, and where 45% of the sales since inception on G Cloud have actually gone to SMEs. >> So it's really transformative. >> yeah. >> Well thank you very much for talking to us about this really fascinating space. I really appreciate it Max Peterson and Johnny Hugill. Thank you for joining us on theCUBE. >> Thank you. >> Thank you so much. >> Great talk. >> That's all from us for now from the Excel Center AWS Summit here in London.

>> Announcer: Live from New York City, it's theCube covering Cyber Connect 2017. Brought to you by Centrify and The Institute for Critical Infrastructure Technology. >> Okay, welcome back everyone, this is a live Cube coverage here in New York City at the Grand Hyatt Ballroom. I'm John Furrier with my co-host Dave Vellante. This is Cyber Connect 2017, the inaugural conference of a new kind of conference bringing industry and government and practitioners together to solve the crisis of this generation, according to Keith Alexander, who was on stage earlier. Our next guest is the CEO of the company that's under running this event, Tom Kemp, co-founder and CEO of Centrify. Congratulations, Tom, we met, we saw you last week, came in the studio in Palo Alto. Day one was coming to a close. Great day. >> Yeah, it's been amazing, we've had over 500 people here. We've been webcasting this, we have 1,000 people. And, of course, we've got your audience as well. So, clearly, over 2,000 people participating in this event, so we're really pleased with the first day turn-out. >> So, I would say this is, like, a new kind of event, a little bit different than most events in the business. Response has been very well received, sold out, packed house, I couldn't get a chair, strolled in, not late, but, I mean, you know, towards the end of your Keynote. This is the dynamic, there's demand for this. Why is this so popular? You guys had a good hunch here, what's been the feedback? >> Well, the feedback's been great, first of all. But, the reality is, is that, organizations are spending 10% more per year on security but the reality is the breaches are growing 40 to 70% per year. So, no matter how much money they're throwing at it, the problem's getting worse, and so people are, for the most part, kind of throwing up their hands and saying, how can we re-think security as well? So, I think there's just a complete hunger to hear best practices from some of the top CSO's. You know we had US bank CSO, we had Etna, Blue Cross Blue Shield, etcetera. What are these guys doing to keep their data secure and make sure that they don't make headlines? >> So, I want to ask you a question on the business front, obviously we saw last week, Alphabet, AKA Google, Twitter and Facebook in front of the Setna committee, around this influence thing going on with the media, still an exploit, but a little bit different than pay load based stuff we're normally seeing with security hacks, still relevant, causes some problems, you guys have been very successful in Washington. I'm not saying you're lobbying, but as a start up, you ingratiated yourself into the community there, took a different approach. A lot of people are saying that the tech companies could do a better job in D.C., and a lot of the times Google and these treasure troves of data, they're trying to figure it out. You took a different approach and the feedback we heard on theCube is working. You guys are well received in there, obviously the product, good timing to have an identity solution, and zero trust philosophy you have. Well, you did something different. What was the strategy? Why so much success in D.C. for Centrify? >> Well, we actually partnered with the IT folks and the security people. I mean, we actually spent a lot of time on site, talking with them, and actually, we built a lot of capabilities for what the government was looking to address from an identity access security perspective. That's just the reality of the situation. And so, we took a long haul view, we've done very great in the, two of our largest customers are intelligence agencies, but we actually have over 20% of our sales that goes to the federal government, state and local as well. So, you really can't just go in there, spend a lot of money, do a lot of hype. You actually have to roll up your sleeves and help them solve the mission. They call it the mission, right, they have mission, and you got to be focused on how you can address them and work with the technologist out there to make sure, so it was just, really just blocking and tackling the ground game, >> So common sense sounds like, just do the work. >> Yeah, do the work, really listen. And think about it as a multi-year investment, right? I mean, in a lot of start ups, they just, like, oh, can't get the sale, move on, right. But you actually have to realize, especially in security, that most tech companies that have a big security presence, they should get 15-20% of their business from the US government. >> That's a big bet for you guys, were you nervous at first? I mean, obviously, you have confidence now looking back, I mean, it must've been pretty nerve wracking because it's a big bet. >> It's a big bet because you also have to meet certain government standards and requirements. You got to get FIP certification, you got to get common criteria, in the cloud, you got to get FedRAMP, and that means you also have to have customers in the federal government approve you and bring you in and then you have to go through the lengthy audit process. And we're actually about to get our FedRAMP certification, just passed the audit and that's going to be coming up pretty soon as well. So, yeah, to go get common criteria, to get FedRAMP, you have to spend a million dollars for those types of certifications. At the same time, working with the large federal agencies. >> So Tom, you gave us the numbers, 10% more spending every year on security but breaches are up 40 to 70%, you said in your talk that's two trillion dollars in lost dollars, productivity, IP, etcetera, so obviously it's not working, you've mentioned a number of folks in here talking today. What's their mindset? Is their mindset this is a do-over? Or, is it, just we got to do a better job? >> I think we're getting to the point where its' going to be a do-over. And I think, first of all, people realize that the legacy technology that they have have historically focused on premises. But, the world's rapidly moving to the cloud, right? And so, you need to have cloud-based scale, a cloud-based architecture, to deliver security nowadays because the perimeter is completely going away. That's the first thing. And, I think there's also realization that there needs to be Big Data machine learning applied to this. And you guys talk about this all the time, the whole rise of Big Data. But, security is probably the best vertical. >> Data application. >> Exactly, it's probably the best vertical, because you need real-time instantaneous should I let this person come into the system or not, right? Or, over time, is this, does this represent malicious activity as well? So, I think people are realizing that what they've been doing's not working, they realize they're moving to the cloud, they need to adopt cloud, to, not only secure cloud, but have their technology be based in the cloud and they need to apply machine learning to the problem as well. >> So, in your talk, you talked about a paradigm shift, which I inferred as a mindset shift in how security practices in technologies should be applied, you got to lot of content in there. But could you summarize for our audience sort of the fundamentals? >> Well, the first fundamental is, is that the attack vector is completely changed, right? Before, it was all about vulnerabilities that someone hadn't patched this latest version of Windows, etcetera. Those problems are really solved, for the most part. I mean, occasionally it kind of pops in now and then, but for the most part, enterprises and governments are good about patching systems etcetera. You don't hear about sequel injections anymore. So, a lot of those problems have been resolved. But, where the attackers are going, they're going after the actual users, and so, I know you had the Verizon folks here on theCube, and if you look at the latest Verizon data breacher port, eight out of 10 breaches involve stolen and compromised credentials, right? And that has grown over the last few years from 50% to 60% now to over 80%. Look at the election, right? You talk about all this Twitter stuff and Facebook and all that stuff, it's John Podesta's emails getting stolen, it's the democrat's emails getting stolen, and you know, now that people have the Equifax data, they've got even more information to help figure out-- >> Social engineering is a big theme here. >> Absolutely. >> They have this data out on the dark web, this methodologies and there's also, you know, we talked with the critical interset guys that you're partnering with about all the terrorism activity, so, there's influence campaigns going on that are influencing through social engineering, but that data's being cross connected for, you know, radicalizing people to kill people in the United States. >> Well, there's that. And then there's nation states, there's insiders. So, the reality is, is that, it turns out from a security perspective, that we, the humans, we're the weakest link in this. And so, yes, there needs to be process, there needs to be technology, there needs to be education here as well. But the reality is that the vast majority of spin on security is for the old stuff, it's like we're trying to fight a land war in Asia, and that's how we're investing, we're still investing in M1 tanks in security, but the reality is that 80% of the breaches are occurring because they're attacking the individuals. They're either fooling them, or stealing it by some means or mechanisms, and so the attack vector is now the user. And that's this, and people are probably spending less than 10% securing the users, but it represents 80% of the actual attack vector. >> Talk about the general, you've had some one-on-one times with him, he's giving a keynote here, gave a keynote this morning, very inspiring. I mean, I basically heard him pounding on the table, "we don't fix this mess, You know, we're going to be in trouble, it's going to be worse than it is!" Think differently, almost re-imagining, his vibe was almost about let's re-imagine, let's partner, let's be a community. What else can you share with you interaction with him? I know he's a very rare to get to speak, but you know, running the cyber command for the NSA, great on offense, we need work on defense. What have you learned from him that industry could take away? >> Yeah, I think you hit it, which is, and I didn't realize that there's a bigger opportunity here, which is, is that in real time, there needs to be more sharing among like constituents. For example, in the energy industry, these organizations, they need to come together and they need to share, not only in terms of round tables, but they actually need to share data. And it probably needs to happen in the cloud, where there's the threats, the attacks that are happening in real time, need to be shared with their peers in the industry as well. And so, and I think government needs to also play a part in that as well. Because each of us, we're trying to fight the Russians, right? And the Chinese and the North Koreans, etcetera and a enterprise just can't deal with that alone and so they need to band together, share information, not only from an educational, like we have today, but actually real time information. And then again, leverage that machine learning. That artificial intelligence to say, "wait a minute, we've detected this of our peers and so we should apply some preventative controls to stop it." >> And tech is at the center of the government transformation more than ever. And again, Twitter, Facebook, and Alphabet in front of the senate, watching them, watching the senators kind of fumbling with the marbles. You know, hey, what's Facebook again? I mean, the magnitude of the data and the impact of these new technologies and with Centrify, the collision between government and industry is happening very rapidly. So, the question is that, you know, how will you guys, seeing this going forward, is it going to be, you know, the partnership as they come together fast or will more mandates come and regulations, which could stifle innovations, so, there's this dimension going on now where I see the formation of either faster partnership with industry and government, or, hey industry, if you don't move fast enough poof, more regulations. >> And that's also what the general brought up as well, is that if you guys don't do something on your own, if you don't fix your own problems, right, then the government's going to step in. Actually, that's what's already starting to happen right now, that if Facebook, Twitter, all these other social networks are not going to do something about foreign governments advertising on their platform, they're going to get regulated. So, if they don't start doing something. So, it's better to be in front of these things right here, the reality is that, yes, from a cyber security in terms of protecting users, protecting data, enterprise needs to do more. But, you know what, regulations are starting to already occur, so, there's a major regulation that came out of New York with the financial services that a lot of these financial firms are talking about. And then in Europe, you got GDPR, right? And that goes into effect I think in May of next year. And there's some serious finds. It could be up to four percent of your revenue as well, while, in the past, the kind of, the hand slaps that have happened here, so if you do business in Europe, if you're a financial services firm doing business in New York. >> People are going to run from there, Europe. I mean, regulation, I'm not a big fan of more regulation, I like regulation at the right balance, cause innovation's key. What have you heard here from talks? Share, cause we haven't had a chance 'cause we've been broadcasting all day, share some highlights from today's sessions after, you know, Jim from Etna was on there, which, I'm sure you got a kick out of his history comment, you're a history buff. Weren't you a history major and computer science? >> I was a history major and computer science, you got that right. >> You'd be a great dean of the sciences by today's standards. But I mean, he had a good point. Civilization crumbles when there's no trust. That comment, he made that interesting comment. >> So, it's interesting what Etna's done, from his presentation, was they've invested heavily in models, they've modeled this. And I think that kind of goes back to the whole Big Data, so I think Etna is ahead of the game, and it's very impressive what he's put forth as well. And just think about the information that Etna has about their customers etcetera. That is not something that you want. >> He was also saying that he modeled, you don't model for model's sake because stuff's going on in real time, you know what I'm saying? So, the data lake wasn't the answer. >> Well, he said his mistake was, so they were operationalizing the real time, you know, security Big Data activity, and he didn't realize it, he said that was the real answer, not just, sort of, analyzing the data swamp, so. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> So, that was the epiphany that he realized. You know, that is where the opportunity was. >> John: It was unconventional tactics, too. >> What can businesses expect, Tom? What's the business outcome they can expect if they, sort of, follow the prescription that you talked about and, sort of, understand that humans are the weakest link and take actions to remediate that. What kind of business impact can that have? >> Yeah, so, we actually, we spent a lot of time on this and we partnered with Forrester, a well known analyst group, and we did this study with them, and they went out and they interviewed 120 large enterprises. And it was really interesting that one group, group A, was getting breached left and right and group B, about half the number of breaches, right? And we were like, what is group B doing versus group A? And it had to do with implementing a maturity model as it relates to identity which is, first and foremost, implementing identity assurance, getting, reducing the number of logins, delivering single sign-in, multi factor authentication. Which we should all do as consumers as well, turn on that MFA button for Twitter, and your Gmail etcetera. Then, from there, the organizations that were able to limit lateral movement and break down, make sure that people don't have too much access to too many things as well. There was an incident, it was Saudi Generale that there was a backend IT guy, he became a traitor, he started making some losses, and so he tried to, he doubled down, he leveraged the credentials that he had as a former IT person to continue trading even though he kind of turned off all the the guardrails right there, and he should have been shut down. When he made that move into that new position, so, there's just too much lateral movement aloud. And then, from there, you got to implement the concept of least privilege and then finally you got to audit, and so if you can follow this maturity model, we have seen that organizations have seen significant reduction in the number of breaches out there as well. So, that was another thing that I talked about at my keynote, that I presented this study that Forrester did by talking to customers and there turned out to be a significant difference between group A and group B in terms of the number of breaches as well. And that actually tied very well with what Jim was talking about as well, which was, you know, I call it a maturity model, he called it just models, right, as well. But there is a path forward that you can better be smarter about security. >> But there's a playbook. >> There is a playbook, absolutely. >> And it revolves around not having a lot of moving parts where human error, and this is where passwords and these directories of stuff out there, are silos, is that right? Did I get that right? So you want to go level? >> That's the first step, I mean the first step is that we're drowning in a sea of passwords, right, and we need what's known as identity assurance, we need to reduce the number of passwords. With the fewer passwords we have, we need to better protect it by adding stronger authentication. Multi-factor authentication. The new face ID technology, which I've been hearing good reviews about, coming from Apple as well, I mean, stuff like that, and say, look, before I log into that, yes, I need to do my thumbprint and do the old face ID. >> And multi factor authentication I think is a good point, also known as MFA, that's not two factor, it's more than one, but two seems to be popular cause you get your phone, multi factor could be device, IOT device, card readers, it starts getting down into other mechanisms, is that right? >> Absolutely, it's something you have, and something you know, right? >> Answer five questions. >> Yeah, but at the same time you don't want to make it too, >> Too restrictive. >> Too restrictive, etcetera. But then here's where the machine learning comes in, then you add the word adaptive in front of multi factor authentication. If the access is coming from the corporate network, odds are that means that person was badged, got through. So, maybe you don't ask as much, for much information to actually allow the person on right there. But, what if that person was, five minutes ago, was in New York, and now he's trying to access from China? Well wait a minute, right? Or what if it's a device that he or she's never accessed from before as well? So, you need to start using that machine learning and look at what is normal behavior and what deviates from that behavior? And then, factor it into the multi factor authentication. >> Well, we've seen major advancements in the last couple years, even, in fraud detection, you know, real time. And is that seeping into the enterprise? >> Well, it should, that's the ironic thing is, is that with our credit card, I mean, we get blocked all the time, right? >> It is annoying sometimes, but you know at the end of the day you say, good. >> Yeah, thank you for doing that, you know. And so that's, in effect, the multi factor authentication is you calling up the credit card company, ironically my credit card, maybe I shouldn't reveal this, too much information, someone will hack me, but I use US bank, right there, and we had Jason the CSO of US bank right there, but, you know, calling in and actually saying, yes, I'm trying to do this transaction represents another form of authentication. Why aren't we doing similar things for people logging onto mission critical servers or applications? It's just shocking. >> I'm going to ask you a personal question, so, you mentioned history and computer science, a lot of security folks that I talk to, when they were little kids, they used to sort of dream about saving the world. Did you do that? (laughter) >> Well, I definitely want to do something that adds value to society, so, you know, this is not like the Steve Jobs telling Scully, do you want to make sugared water and all that stuff? >> Dave: No, but like, superhero stuff, were you into that as a kid, or? >> D.C. or Marvel? >> Good versus evil? >> Don't answer that question, you like 'em both. >> But the nice thing about security is, when you're a security vendor, you're actually, the value that you have is real. It's not like, you know, some app or whatever where you get a bunch of teenagers to waste time and all that stuff. >> John: Serious business. >> Yeah, you're in serious business. You're protecting people, you're protecting individuals, their personal information, you're protecting corporations, their brand, look what happened to Equifax when their, when it was announced, the breach, their stock went down 13, 14%, Chipotle went down by 400 million, their market cap went. I mean, so, nowadays, if you have a, if there's a breach, you got to short that stock. >> Yeah, and security's now part of the product, cause the brand image, not just whatever the value is in the brand, I mean the product, the brand itself is the security. If you're a bank, security is the product. >> Absolutely, if you're known for being breached, who the heck's going to bank with you? >> Whole 'nother strategy there. Okay, final question from me is, this event, what are some of the hallway conversations, what's notable, what can you share for the folks watching? Some of the conversations, the interests, the kind of people here, what was the conversations? >> Yeah, I mean, the conference, we really did a great job working with our partner ICIT of attracting sea level folks, right? So, this was more of a business focus, this was not, you know, people gathered around a laptop and try to hack into the guy sitting right next to them as well. And, so, I think there, what has come out of the conversations is a better awareness of, as I said before, it's like, you know what, we got to completely, we got to like step back, completely rethink what we're trying to do here as well, cause what we're doing now is not working, right? And so I think it's, in effect, we're kind of forcing some soul searching here as well. And having others present what's been working for them, what technologies, cloud, machine learning, the zero trust concept, etcetera, where you only, you have to assume that your internal network is just as polluted as the outside. >> I know this might be early, but what's the current takeaway for you as you ruminate here on theCube that you're going to take back to the ranch in Palo Alto and Silicon Valley, what's the takeaway, personally, that you're now going to walk away with? Was there an epiphany, was there a moment of validation, what can you share about what you'll walk away with? >> There's just a hunger. I mean there's just a hunger to know more about the business of security etcetera. I mean, we're just, we were amazed with the turn out here, we're pleased with working with you guys and the level of interest with your viewership, our webcast, I mean, this is, you know, for the first time event to have both in-person and online, well over 2,000 people participating, that says a lot. That there's just this big hunger. So, we're going to work with you guys, we're going to work with ICIT and we're going to figure out how we're going to make this bigger and even better because there is an untapped need for a conference such as this. >> And a whole new generation's coming up though the ranks, our kids and the younger, new millennials , whatever they're called, Z or letters they're called, they're going to end up running the cyber. >> Yeah absolutely, absolutely. So there just needs to be a new way of going about it. >> Tom, congratulations. >> Thank you. >> Great event, you guys got a lot of credibility in D.C., you've earned it, it shows. The event, again, good timing lighting the bottle, The CyberConnect inaugural event, Cube exclusive coverage in Manhattan here, live in New York City at the Grand Hyatt Ballroom for the CyberConnect 2017 presented by Centrify, I'm here with the CEO and co-founder of Centrify, Tom Kemp, I'm John Furrier, Dave Vellante, more live coverage after this short break. (modern electronic music)