(upbeat music) >> Announcer: Live from Los Angeles, it's theCUBE covering Open Source Summit, North America 2017, brought to you by the Linux Foundation, and the Red Hat. >> Okay, welcome back everyone. Live here in Los Angeles, is theCUBE's exclusive coverage of the Open Source Summit, North America. I'm John Furrier, your host, with my cohost, Stu Miniman with Wikibon. Our next guest is Ross Turk, Director of Evangelism at Red Hat. Welcome to theCUBE, good to see you again. >> Good to see you. >> So, evangelizing is now going to be super more important as Open Source Summit, formerly called The Linux Con, Linux kernel. So, Linux is really now the foundation. So, now all these new products are emerging, hence the new name Open Source Summit. You guys are in the middle of it. >> Ross: Mm-hmm. >> What's the themes that you guys are pumping out there right now from an evangelist standpoint? Give me the order of operations in terms of priorities. >> Well, gosh, we're trying to tell stories about how people operate infrastructure in today's modern world, right, which is a lot about making sure that, you know, dealing with ephemeral infrastructure, dealing with containerized applications, and that sort of thing. It gives a lot more flexibility to people who are doing modern operations. It's about applications that spill over across multiple machines and doing so in a way that doesn't require a lot of heavy lifting or wiring things up by hand. So, there's this whole modern operations experience thing we talk about, but we also talk about a modern developer experience. What does it mean to build applications today? And, of course, you combine those together it turns into Dev Ops, right. But, the large companies still work in these two separate worlds. But, people are building technology differently than they ever did in the past, and they're deploying it differently than they did in the past. So, there's lots of stories that can come out of that. >> Well, let's start with the story that we love. Stu and I were talking about the server list at the beginning because you have the Dev Ops movement certainly is going mainstream. You're seeing a lot of enterprises looking at that as viable. Now, they're operationalizing it, and they need to have that industrial strength Red Hat, Linux. But, now Kubernetes and Servalist, the younger developers, they just want an infrastructure as code. >> That seems to be a very hot story here, and Kubernetes server list is kind of in the hallway conversations. How do you guys bring that to bear? >> Well, I think that what Red Hat does is we give an operating environment that can sit underneath all of it with Rail and everything else we build that is stable and secure and reliable. And, you need that in order to have all of this chaos happening above it with developers deploying microservices and moving things around, and demands changing and all these other things, you need to have something really stable and reliable underneath that, something that you know can be if the applications and virtual machines and containers aren't long running, what sits underneath of them is long running, and it still needs to be stable and reliable. So, a lot of the work we've been doing for the past 20 years around Linux Engineering, I think, contributes to making this stable environment for a modern developer. >> Yeah, Ross, one of the challenges in scaling is usually I've got to worry things like storage. You know, state is there, you know data gravity is something we need to be concerned about. It's great to say ephemeral and I want everything anywhere, and, I can put it in this cloud or use it in that application, but at the end of the day it's tough to build some of these pieces. How's Red Hat helping there as containerization and scale, how does that fit into kind of this storage discussion moving on? >> It's a real struggle right, because you can talk to people and they say oh, every single one of the microservices held over and they scale out, and all this, and they talk about this really elaborate infrastructure like well, where is all your data being stored? Oh, it's sitting in Oracle, you know, so you find this sort of like dissonance between how data is managed and how applications are managed. At Red Hat, we believe that storage should be another microservice alongside all the other microservices make up and application. So, that's why we put a lot of engineering effort into making things like Ceph and Red Hat Gluster Storage work well alongside Open Shift so that a developer can provision storage as needed without having to go to an ops person, and that when that storage gets provisioned it's in containers alongside other containers that are providing the other things that your application needs. >> Software defined storage was the answer, it's the Holy Grail. We've heard software defined data center. We've been covering this also in the VM world, heard an awful lot about that. But, that still is a key part of the software, and now you have hardware stacks, so IOT and Cloud are opening up these new use cases for enterprises where whoa, we actually kind of didn't test that hardware with that software, so it's kind of interesting dynamic because software defined is still super important. What's your view on software defined storage, in particular, is that an answer, is it stable, what's your thoughts? >> Well, I think it's an answer, but it depends on what the question is, just to be kind of-- >> What is software defined storage? Let's start with that one. >> Well, so, what is software defined storage? Software defined storage is, okay, so I'll say it in more like what it isn't. >> The traditional storage, traditional storage solutions get deployed as appliances, which are vertically integrated hardware and software solutions that are built to do one thing, and to do that one thing well. And, that one thing is to store data. They're kind of like big refrigerator-sized things that you bring into your data center with a forklift and it's a big oepration, and then they provide storage for any number of applications. What software defined storage does is it implements those same services and those same capabilities, but it does it entirely in software. So, instead of being this vertically integrated software, hardware solution, you end up with software that lets you build it on any hardware, and that hardware can be physical hardware so you can build a storage cluster made up of 1,000 bare metal servers, or you could build that same cluster on a thousand VMs inside of a public cloud. So, in making storage no longer a hardware problem, like it used to be, I mean fundamentally it's a hardware problem, you get down bits are stored somewhere, but, the management of storage is no longer a hardware concern, it's a software concern, now, and that means it's a little bit more flexible. You can containerize it. You can deploy it in the public cloud. You can deploy it in VMs. You can deploy it on bare metal. So, that's what software defined storage is doing is it's changing things around, but it requires different skills. >> Come on Ross, I want a storageless environment, can we get on that? >> A storageless environment? Sure, I guess. Storage has become somebody else's problem at that point. >> Absolutely, how about, how is containers changing that whole discussion? You know, it took us like a decade to kind of get storage working in a virtualized environment, networking seems to be really tackling the container piece, storage seems a little further behind, you know, what're you seeing some of the big challenges there and how are we looking to solve that? >> Well, here there's when you look at containers and storage, there are really two things to consider. The first is how do you make storage such that a containerized environment can consume it easily, right. This is what at Red Hat we call container ready. So, we call a storage solution container ready, what it means that your container platform knows how to consume it. Most storage is container ready, all it takes is a Kubernetes volume driver to be container ready, and that's one half of it, and that's really, really important. It's the same kind of thing we had to do with virtualization, making sure every hypervisor could talk to every storage system. Now, we're making sure every container platform can talk to every storage system. That's important, but it's only half the puzzle, 'cause the other half is now that you have storage as a software thing, a distributed software thing, you can actually deploy that storage inside the same containers that you're using, that are driving the demand for that storage. So, it's this kind of weird, you know, snake eating it's own tail thing where you as a developer, let's say I'm deploying an application, I need a database, I need a web server, blah, blah, and a bunch of other things, and I need a scale out storage system, I can deploy that in containers just alongside everything else, and it uses the local storage of each of the container hosts to build that shared storage that then is used to provide services to other containerized applications. So, it's the ability to have storage in containers Which is really strange. We call that container native storage. >> It's interesting the markets going pretty crazy, so if you kind of take the Dev Ops and say assume for a minute infrastructure is programmable. >> Mm-hmm. >> But, then you look at the developer action right now on the App side, we've seen all kinds of new stuff Apple has their announcement today with the new iPhone 8. We've been covering that on siliconangle.com. Forbes has got great stories as well. New AR kit, so augmented reality is a huge deal, virtual reality obviously still hyped up, is still promised, those are going to require new chips. That's going to require consumer behavior change, so, the developers are staring at a different market than worrying about provisioning storage, right. So, but, these are now new pressures. New hardware, new opportunities, as a developer, advocate, and evangelist, and an industry participant, and user, how do you look at that, and how is that impacting the developer market because Androids got good stuff coming down, too, not just Apple, Samsung? >> Ross: Yeah. >> It's all multimedia, I mean. >> Well, what's interesting about AR kit is that if you go just back five years that same capability required a very, very particular type of phone, you know, like the project Tango stuff required all these depth cameras and like connect style stuff to do the AR kit, and Apple was able to solve a lot of that in software just using two cameras, right, and in software. And, I think that's really-- >> John: On a phone? >> On a phone, on a phone no less, and I think what's amazing about that is all of the capabilities that we walk around with in our pocket now were really hard to get a long time ago. >> Well, this is interesting, your point, let's stay on this because this really illustrates the point. AR kit, for example is proving that the iPhone now is smart enough and with software, enough horsepower to do that kind of thing, but that's replicable across all devices now as an IOT device. The Internet of Things is going to be a freight train coming down the tracks, security, endpoint security, whether it's, I mean all kinds of coolness, but yet threats are there. So, software has to do all this, right. So, how's that going to impact the cloud game, your business, you guys you have to move faster on hardening things, be more organic on the innovation side, not business-wise, but technical strategy. >> Well, I think a lot of it is enabling developers to work more quickly and build features more quickly, also, educating developers on the security and privacy ramifications of the things that they build because it's really easy to just go out in front and advance and innovate and forget about all of that stuff. So, it's about changing developer culture so that you consider security and privacy first, as opposed to later. And, also, maybe you want to consider storage as well if you're talking about machine learning or IOT and all of these types of things, you're -- >> Videos, I mean this is video, software rendering. That's a storage nightmare. >> It's all got to live somewhere, and once you put it in that place where it lives, it's really hard to move it. So, this is a thing you want to plan from the very beginning. >> And, I think that's what's cool about AI, too, and self-driving cars it's a consumer, you know, flashy, coolness that can say hey, this is happening. I mean how fast is happening, but the developer is now bringing it to the businesses and say, okay, we don't have an AR virtual reality strategy for our retail, for instance, you potentially could be out of business. So, these are the kind of thoughts that are going at the C-level that now are going into what used to be IT, but all of IT, how do you handle this? This is an architectural question, so your thoughts on that, because that seems to be a conversation we see a lot. Architectural that's going to solve problems today, not foreclose future opportunities. >> Well, it's cultural, too, inside of the company, like everywhere inside of a company there used to be Internet teams in companies, remember. We used to be like oh, go talk to the Internet team because something's wrong with the Web or whatever, now, there's no Internet team, everybody's the Internet team, Every single team in an organization is thinking about how to leverage the Internet to make their job more effective. The same is going to be true for everything that we're talking about, you know. Security, interestingly enough, so many people always thought security was somebody else's problem. but just this week, we were reminded that it's everybody's problem, hundreds of millions of people's problem, security. So, I think that as these things kind of advance-- >> John: Security first, and privacy first is critical. >> It is absolutely critical, and there used to be, I mean, I think at some point maybe there won't be a security team inside of a company because everybody's going to be the security team, but it's like everybody's the Internet team now, and I always felt the same way about open source communities. I thought there would never, you know, always everybody-- >> Well, people are ruling their own security now. You have these LifeLock or whatever they call them, these services for a password protection because you can't trust even all these databases that are out there. You have block chain with immutability, yeah, certainly the wallets are not yet, but I mean certainly this is where it might be a future scenario. >> Yeah, and I think for all of these things agility is going to be key. The ability to go down a path a certain distance and realize whoa I've run into a privacy problem, back up a little bit, continue down another path. I think that the faster we can make the development process, I think the less risky we make going into all these new frontiers. >> Yeah, Ross, one of the things we've really liked watching the last kind of five years or so is storage turning into a discussion of data and how can we leverage that data, real-time data, you know, decisions at the edge, analytics, what's exciting you the most about kind of the storage world these days? >> Oh boy. Well, you know, I just spent about five years in the storage infrastructure world, so a lot of what kind of kept me going day and night was saving people money, making things faster, making things easier, but also, giving storage platforms that were elastic enough to handle all of this really interesting stuff that happens on top of them. So, there's all kinds of new big data stacks that I find particularly interesting, a lot of the real time analysis stuff like Apache Spark and things like that. There's so much going into visualization right now, as well, how you handle large amounts of time series data and that sort of thing. There's been a lot of advancements in exactly that. Personally, I'm really excited lately in all the data of this stuff, all the ways you can extract meaning from all this data, you know, the ways that you can give it a business context that allows you to make better decisions with it. >> Not a lot of data conversations here at this conference as is open source software, but I mean data I mean I've said and I wrote a blog post in 2008 Dave always, Dave Olantho always jokes with me because I always reference it, I said data is the new development kit, meaning data is going to be part of the software development model, and it actually is with big data, but, you're not hearing a lot of it here because most people are talking about their communities, their projects, but the role of data is fundamental at the edge. >> Ross: Absolutely. >> And, so, how is that going to change some of these conversations and can data be developed on, and is data now part of the software development life cycle that's coming to fruition in the new way. >> Interesting, I think that's an interesting observation that as we see sort of Dev and Ops coming together, right, the world of the operator and the world of the developer coming together, I think we'll probably, at some point, see the world of the developer come together with the world of the data scientist because as I kind of wrack my brain I'm thinking okay, what type of future developer wouldn't have to be dealing with large amounts of data wouldn't have to have that kind of skill to be able to deal with it. So, I think we're going to start to see more software developers getting more involved in big data, machine learning, data analytics, and things like that for sure. >> Well, either way, this open source growth that's coming is going to be exponential. Data is already there. I mean we have a joke in our office software is eating the world as Mark Andreasen would say years ago, but, data is eating software. So, in terms of how you look at it someone's eating somebody, but, this becomes interesting for the IOT developer, or the industrial developer. Those systems were never connected to IT in the past. It was like they ran their own stuff from their own terminals. >> And, there's this idea that everybody's heard that data has gravity, right. And, I actually was talking to somebody about this and they said, well, actually the data has inertia, and I'm like, no, that's not really it 'cause once it's moving it's not hard to stop it. The idea that data has gravity means that let's say I'm putting together this new IOT application, or whatever, I'm gathering data from a bunch of sensors or whatever, and I've got the data in that place. Now, having all that data in that place is more meaningful to me than most of the software that I wrote. You know, it's like that is the value, the kernel of the data is there, and data having gravity means that it's hard to move once it's in a certain place, but, it also means that it attracts workloads to it, right. So, it used to be that software was king, and software created data and managed data, and now data is king, and it brings software to it, I think. >> I totally agree with you, and I think they might even call this the open data summit soon, but it's beyond open source. Now, this is going to be great. They work hand in hand. Software and data are going to be great. Stu what's your thoughts on the role that data's not being talked much here? >> Yeah, John at Amazon weighed in last year. When we talked to Andy Jassy it was the customers were the flywheel, and I think data's going to be that next flywheel of really feeding into that data gravity discussion that you were having, Ross. You know, when Hadoop came out it was like oh, we're going to bring the code to the data. Well, we know if I'm going to have more data I'm going to have my data sources, I'm going to have third party data sources that I want to be able to work and interact with those, so, data absolutely huge opportunities there, and the companies that can leverage that and get more value out of it is going to be a-- >> Well, we already see it's a competitive advantage, no doubt, but it's the privacy issue still the big debate like we know in our immediate businesses. Look at Facebook, I've got a free App I get to see all my friends' photos, their vacations, everyone's living a great life on Facebook, but, then all of a sudden I give my data away for free for the privilege to use that App, but all the sudden they start injecting fake news at me. I don't want that anymore, and you're still making money off of my data, so that's interesting. Facebook makes money off of my data. >> Yeah, that's-- >> That's my contract with them. >> Yeah, If you ask what their asset is, one person might think it's traffic, you know, or eyeballs, but, I think it's data. >> So, they're using data, I might not like it, so that might be an opportunity for somebody else so your point Stu, so if you start thinking about it differently, data decisions are going to be an architectural challenge. >> Yeah, absolutely. I think enterprise architecture thinking, even today, you're seeing enterprise architects thinking more and more and more about data than they have in the past. >> Ross, what do you think about the show, final word in the segment, what's going on Open Source Summit, share with the folks that are watching? >> The vibe here, it's now a new name, but it's still the same game, multiple events come together. >> Yeah, multiple events together. I like Open Source Summit as a name. I think it's a good name. It's properly named for what's going on here. It's been an interesting experience for me because I've been in this community for a really long time. So, I come here and I run into all kinds of old friends, the hallway track's always a good track for me. The content is fantastic, but the hallway track is always really good, and I can't think of anywhere else where you can go and get this selection of people, right. You have people who're working on all layers of the problem, and they can all come together and talk. So, I don't know-- >> It's really a cross-fertilization, cross-pollination, whatever word you want to use. I think this event's going to be in the 30,000 pretty quickly. I mean this is going to be. Well, if you look at the growth, the numbers, you know, presented on stage, Jim Zemlon, was pointing out the growth, by 2026, 400 million libraries. I mean people still think that's underestimated. >> Yeah. >> So, that's a lot of growth. >> I think it could get there, and I think these folks organize great shows, so I look forward to seeing them scale up to 30,000. >> Ross, thanks for your commentary, appreciate the perspective, and the insight here on theCUBE. >> Thank you. >> Thanks for joining us. This is theCUBE live coverage from Open Source Summit, North America. I'm John, for Stu Miniman, back with more after this short break. (upbeat music)

(mid-tempo music) >> Announcer: Live, from Los Angeles, it's The Cube. Covering Open source Summit North America 2017. Brought to you by the Linux Foundation and Red Hat. >> Okay welcome back and we're live in Los Angeles for The Cube's exclusive coverage of the Open Source Summit North America. I'm John Furrier, my co-host Stu Miniman, Our next guest is Steve Pousty, who's the Director of Developer Advocacy for Red Hat, Cube alumni, we last spoke at the Cisco Devnet Create, which is their new kind of cloud-native approach. Welcome Back. >> Thank you, thank you, glad to be here. >> We're here at the Open Source Summit, which is a recognition that of all these kind of ... With LinuxCon, all these things, coming events, it's a big ten event, love the direction, >> Yeah Validation to what's already happened and the recognition of open source, where Linux is at the heart of all that, Red Hat also you guys are the Linux standard, and gold standard, but there's more- >> We like to think of it that way, but- >> But there's more than Linux on top of it now, so this is a recognition that open source is so much more. >> For sure, I'm mean you can even see ... Who would've thought that there'd be a whole huge hubbub about Facebook doing a separate license for their react libraries and all the interactions with Apache, the Apache Foundation. Open source is so much ... it's the mainstream now. Like, basically, it's very hard to release a proprietary product right now and come up with some justification about why you have to do it. >> And why, and can it even be as good. >> Steve: Right. >> There's two issues, justification and performance. >> Yeah, quality, all that stuff. And also, customers' acceptability of that. Like, "Oh wait, you mean I can't actually even see the code? "I can't modify the code, I can't pay you to modify the code "and share it with everybody else?" I think customers have come to a whole ... Users of open source stuff, it's so permeated now that I think it's hard to be in the market without ... I mean, look at everybody who's here. Some of the people that are here were some of the biggest closed source people before. >> John: Microsoft is here. >> Exactly. >> John: IBM is here, although they've always been open, they were big on Linux early on. >> Yes. >> But now you're seeing the ecosystem grow, so we see some scale coming, but there's still a lot of work that needs to get done. We see greatness, like Kubernetes and Serverless offering great promise and hope for either multi-cloud workflow, workload management, all those cool stuff. But there's still some work to be done. >> Steve: For sure. >> What's your take on progress, where are we, what's the ... some of those under the hood things that need to get worked on? >> Well so, progress, I think ... the funny part is our expectations have changed so much over time that, so Kubernetes is about a little over two years old, and we're all like, oh it's moving so s-- why is it not doing this, this, and this? Whereas if this was like 10 years ago, the rate at which Kubernetes is moving is phenomenal. So, basically, every quarter there is a new release of Kubernetes, and we basically built OpenShift as a distribution on top of Kubernetes, and so we're delivering to our customers every quarter as well, and a bunch of them are like, "This is too fast, this is too fast, "like, we can't integrate all these changes." But at the same time, they say, "But don't slow down." Because, "Oh, next release we're going to get this thing "that we want and we know we want to go to that release." So, I think Kubernetes definitely has more growing room, but the thing is, how much it's already being seen as the standard, it's the ... so the way I like to talk about it, and I'll talk about this in my talk later, I think for Red Hat, Kubernetes is the cloud Linux kernel. It's the exact same story all over again. It's this infrastructure that everybody's going to build on. Now there are people who are standing up OpenStack on Kubernetes, or on OpenShift. So basically saying, "I don't want to install and manage "my Openstack, it's too difficult. "Give me some JSON and some components "and I'll just use Kubernetes as my operating plane." >> We saw Kubernetes right out of the gates, Stu and I, at the first Cube-Con, we were present at creation, and just on the doorstep of that thing just unfolded, and we saw the orchestration piece is huge, but I want to get your take if you can share with the audience, why Kubernetes has taken the world by storm. Why is it so relevant? What's all the hubbub about with Kubernetes? Share your opinion. >> Okay, so remember ... okay so this is a red shirt, and remember I work at Red Hat, so this obviously a biased opinion. I want to be up front about that. >> John: In your biased opinion ... >> Right, well as opposed to a neutral opinion, right, we definitely, so, I say that in front of my audiences just so that ... go do your own research, but from my perspective and what I've seen in the market place, there was a lot of orchestration and scheduling out there, then it kind of narrowed down, there's three players I would say right now. The three players all end with Kubernetes, but I just started with it (laughs). There's Kubernetes, there is Mesosphere, and there's Docker Swarm. I see those as being the three that are out there right now. And I think the reason we're ... So I won't talk about the others, but I see those ... Why Kubernetes has won is, one, community. So they have done a great job of being upstream, working with all people, being a very open community, open to working with others, not trying to make things just so it benefits Google's business but to benefit everybody. The other reason is the size of that community, right, everybody working together. The third is I think they, so some of it's luck, right? >> John: Yeah, timing is everything. >> Timing is everything. >> John: You're on a wave, and you're on your board and a big wave comes, you surf it, right? >> That's exactly, so I think what happened with Mesosphere is they're a great scheduler, and a lot of people said they were the best scheduler to start with. But they didn't really focus on containers to start with and it seems like they missed ... Like, Kubernetes said, "No, it's all about containers "and we're going to focus on container workload." And that's right where everybody else was. And so it was like, "I don't want to write "all that extra stuff from Mesosphere. "I want to do it with Kubernetes 'cause that's containers." And so that's the bit of luck lining up with the market. So I'd say it's the community but also recognizing that it's about containers to start with and containers are kind of taking over. >> Yeah, Steve, take us inside containers. You're wearing a shirt that says "Linux is Containers" on the front, if our audience could see the back it says "Containers are Linux." >> Steve: Exactly. >> Of course, Red Hat heavily involved. You're in the weeds, dealing with things that we're doing to make stability of containers, make sure it works in other environments. Tell us some of the things you're working on, some of the projects, and the like. >> So, some of the projects I'll be showing today, one is based off of OpenScap, Open S-C-A-P, it's another open consortium for scanning for vulnerabilities. We've written something called Atomic Scan, so it can take any OpenScap provider, plug it in to Atomic Scan, and you can scan a container image without having to actually run it. So, you don't actually have to start it up, it actually just goes in. The other thing I'm going to be talking about today is Bilda, this is part of the CNCF stuff. This is the ability to actually build a runC-compatible container without ever using Docker or MOBI. The way, a totally different approach to it, what you basically do is you say, "I want this container from this other container, or from blank," then you have a container there and then you actually mount the file system. So rather than actually booting a container and doing all sorts of steps in the container itself, you actually mount the file system, do normal operations on your machine like it was your normal file system, and then actually commit at the end. So it's another way for some of our customers that really like that idea of how they want to build and manage containers. But also, there's a bunch more. There's Kryo, which is the common runtime interface, and the implementation of it, so that Kubernetes can now run on an alternative container technology. This is Kryo, it's agnostic. If you looked at Kelsey Hightower's latest "Kubernetes and Anger," I think, or "Kubernetes the Hard Way" or something. His latest is building it all on Kryo. So rather than running on Docker, it runs ... All your container running happens on Kryo. I'm not trying to say, well of course I think it's better, but I think the point that we're really seeing is, by everything moving in to CNCF and the Linux Foundation and getting around standards, it's really enabled the ecosystem to take off. Like, TekTonic and CoreOS have done that with Rocket. We're going to see a lot more blossoming. The fertilizer has been applied, back from our ... >> Yeah, CNCF of two years old, I mean their fertilizer down big time, you got the manure and all the thousand flowers are blooming from that. >> Yeah, between Prometheus, I mean just, Prometheus, Istio, there's just ... I can't even keep track of it all. >> So Steve, you were talking earlier. Customers are having a hard time with that quarterly release. >> Steve: Yes. >> How do they keep up with all these projects, I mean you know, we rattled through all of 'em. You've got 'em all down pat, but the typical customer, do they need to worry about what do they have to focus on, how do they keep up with the pace change, how do they absorb all of this? >> Okay so it highly depends on the customer. There are some customers who are not our customers, I'll just say users, who are advanced enough on their own, who they're out there basically just, they're consuming the tip of what's coming out of CNCF. All that stuff, and they're picking and choosing and they're doing that all. For Red Hat, a lot of our customers are, "I like all that technology, you're our trusted advisor, "when you release it as a product "and I know I can sit on it for three years, "because you'll support it for at least three years, "maybe five years, then I'm going to start to consume it "and you'll actually probably put it into a more usable form for me." 'Cause a lot of the upstream stuff isn't necessary made direct for consumption. >> How are you guys dealing with the growth prospects. We've been talking about this all morning, this has been the big theme of this show is, not only just the renaming of a variety of different events, LinuxCon, but Open Source Summit is an encapsulation of all the projects that are blossoming across the board. So, the scale issues, and as a participant, Red Hat, >> Steve: Yes. >> Your biased opinion, but you're also incentive and you guys are active in the community. The growth that's coming is going to put pressure on the system. It may change the relationship between communities and vendors and how they're all working together, so again, to use the river analogy, there's a lot of water going to be pumping through the system. And so how's that going to impact the ecosystem, is it going to be the great growth that could flood everything, is there a potential for that, I mean you're an ecosystem guy, so the theory is there, it's like, Jim's stepping up with the Linux Foundation. I talked to him yesterday and he recognizes it. >> Steve: Yeah. >> But he also doesn't want to get in the way, either. >> Steve: No, no, no- >> So there's a balance of leadership that's needed. Your thoughts. >> So, I mean I think one of the things ... So I mean you know the Linux kernel has its benevolent dictator, and that works well for that one community, but then you'll see something like Kubernetes, where it's much more of a community base, there is no benevolent dictator for life on Kubernetes. I think one of the nice things that the Linux Foundation has done, and which Red Hat has acknowledged is, you know, let the community govern the way that works for that community. Don't try to force necessarily one model on it. In terms of the flood part that you were talking about, I think, if you want to go back to rivers, there's cycles in terms of 10 year floods, 100 year floods, I think what we're seeing right now is a big flood, and then what'll happen out of this is some things will shake out and other things won't. I don't expect every vendor that's here to be here next year. >> And find the high ground, I mean, I mean the numbers that Jim shared in his opening keynote is by 2026, 400 million libraries are going to be out there versus today's 64 roughly million. >> Steve: Right. >> You know, Ed from Cisco thinks that's understated, but now there's more code coming in, more people, and so a new generation is coming on board. This is going to be the great flood in open source. >> I also think it's a great opportunity for some companies. I mean, I'm not high enough in Red Hat to know what we're doing in that space, but it's also a great opportunity for some companies to help with that. Like, I think, that's one of the other things that Linux Foundation did was set up the Javascript Foundation. That is a community that-- >> But that doesn't have Node.js, it's a little bit separate. >> No, I know, but think-- >> You're talking about the js, okay. >> But I'm talking about, but if you think about the client-side javascript, forget Node. Just think about client-side javascript and how many frameworks are coming up all the time, and new libraries. >> Stu: That's a challenge. >> So I think actually that community could be one that could be good to maybe gain some lessons from, as things happen more in open source. I think there are other open source communities. Like, I'm wondering like GNOME-- >> But the feedback on the js community is that there's a lot of challenges in the volume of things happening. >> And that's coming for us though, right? >> Yeah. >> That's what's coming, that's what's going to come for this larger ecosystem, so I think maybe there's market opportunity, maybe there's new governance models, maybe there's ... I mean, this is where innovation comes from. There's a new problem that's come, it's a good problem. >> Your next point of failure is your opportunity to innovate. >> Exactly, and it's a good problem to have, right, as opposed to, we have too few projects, and we don't really, no one really likes them. Instead, now it's like, we've got so many projects and people are contributing, and everybody's excited, how do we manage that excitement? >> So another dynamic that we're observing, and again we're just speculating, we're pontificating, we're opining ... is fashion. Fashion, fashionable projects. Never fight fashion, my philosophy is. In marketing, don't fight the fashion. >> Steve: Right. >> CNCF is fashionable right now, people love it. It's popular, it's trendy, it's the hip new night club if you will in open source. Other projects are just as relevant. So, relevance and trending sometimes can be misconstrued. How do you guys think about that, because this is a dynamic, everyone wants to go to the best party. There a fear of missing out, I'm going to go check out Kubernetes, but also relevance matters. >> Yes. >> John: Your thoughts. >> So I've seen this discussion internally in engineering all the time, when we're talking about, 'cause you know OpenShift is trying to build a real distribution, not like, "Oh here is Kubernetes," but a real distribution. Like when Red Hat ships you the Linux, gives you Linux, we don't just say, "Here's the Linux kernel, have a good time." We put a whole bunch of stuff around it, and we're trying to do that with Kubernetes as well, so we're constantly evaluating all the like, "Should we switch to Prometheus now, "when's the time to switch to Prometheus? "Oh it's trending really hot. "Oh but does it give us the features?" >> John: It's a balance. >> It's a balance, it's going to have to come down to, I hate to say it-- >> It's a community, people vote with their code, so if something has traction, you got to take a look at it. >> But I would say, and this has been going on for a while, and I've seen other people talk about it, if you are the lead on an open source project, and you want a lot of community, you have to get into marketing. You can't just do-- >> John: You got to market the project. >> You got to, and not in the nasty term of market, which is that I'm going to lie to you and like, what a lot of developers think about like, "Oh I'm just going to give you bullshit and lie to you, "and it's not going to be helpful." No, market in terms of just getting your word out there so at least people know about it. Lead with all your-- >> John: Socialize it. >> Yeah. I mean, that's what you got to get it, so there is a lot of chatter now. How do you get it noticed as a Twitter person, right? You have to do some, it's the same, it's going to be more like that for open source projects. >> John: So we're doing our share to kind of extract the signal from some of the noise out there, and it's great to talk to you about it because you help give perspective. And certainly Red Hat, you're biased, that's okay, you're biased. Now, take your Red Hat off. >> Okay. >> Hat off. Take your Red Hat hat off >> Steve: Propaganda hat off. >> and put your neutral hat on. An observation of Open Source Summit, I'll see that name change kind of significance in the sense it's a big ten event. This event here, what's your thoughts on what it means? >> Hey c'mon Steve, you've got a PhD in ecology, so we want some detailed analysis as to how this all goes together. >> I mean it's good marketing, Open Source Summit, good name change, little bit broader. >> I'm actually glad for it. So, I've gone to some other smaller events, and I actually like this, because it was hard for me to get to the smaller events, or to get quite enough people. Like this actually builds a critical mass, and more cross-fertilization, right, so it's much easier for me to talk to containers to car people. 'Cause automotive Linux is here as well, right? >> John: You can't avoid it, you see 'em in the hallways, you can say, "Hey, let's chat." >> "Let's talk about that stuff," whereas in the small ... So, you know, this is more about conferences. There's a good side and a bad side to everything, just like I tell my kids, "When you pick up a stick, you also have to pick up the other end of the stick." You can't just like have, "Oh this is a great part," but you don't get the bad part. So the great part about this, really easy to see a lot of people, see a lot of interesting things that are happening. Bad part about this, it's going to be hard, like if this was just CNCF, everybody here would be CNCF, all the talks would be CNCF, it's like you could deep dive and really go. So, I think this is great that they have this. I don't think this gets, should get rid of smaller, more focused events. >> Well at CubeCon, our CubeCon, the CNCF event in Austin, we'll be there for The Cube. That will be CNCF all the time. >> Steve: Exactly. I'm glad they're still doing that. >> So they're going to have the satellite event, and I think that's the best way to do it. I think a big ten event like this is good because, this is small even today, but with the growth coming, it'll be convention hall size in a matter of years. >> Well, exactly, and the fact that you made it into a big, and the fact that you've made it into this cohesive event, rather than going to somebody and saying, "Hey, sponsor these five events." Like, No. Sponsor this one big event, and then we'll get most of the people here for you. >> It's also a celebration, too. A lot of these big ten events are ... 'Cause education you can get online, there are all kinds of collaboration tools online, but when you have these big ten events, one of the rare things is it's the face to face, people-centric, in the moment, engagement. So you're learning in a different way. It's a celebration. So I think open source is just too important right now, that this event will grow in my opinion. >> Steve: For sure. >> Bring even thousands and thousands of people. >> I mean, another way-- >> John: 30,000 at some point, easily. >> Yeah, I think definitely it's theirs to lose, let's put it that way. >> John: (laughing) I'll tell that to Jim "Hey, don't screw it up!" >> Don't screw it up. I think the way that you could almost think of this is OSS-Con, right, instead of Comic-Con, this is like, this can become OSS-Con, which is like, they should probably ... In the same way that the Kubernetes Foundation works and grows with a lot of other people, it would be great if they could bring in other Foundations as well to this. I know this is being run by the Linux, but it'd be great if we could get some Apache in here, some Eclipse in here, I mean that would just be-- >> John: A total home run. >> Those foundations bringing it in-- >> That would truly make it an open source summit. >> Yeah, exactly, as opposed to the World Series that's only in the United States. >> Yeah. (laughing) >> Although you know, I was at a hotel recently, and they had baseball on, it was little league baseball though. Their World Series is actually, Little League World Series is actually the World Series. >> John: It's a global World Series. >> Yeah, like their-- >> John: It's the world. >> Yeah, as opposed to the MLB, right? >> Alright, Steve, great to have you on, any final thoughts on interactions you've had, things you've learned from this event you'd like to share and pass on? >> No, I just think the space is great, I'm really excited to be in it. I'm starting to move a little bit more up to the application tier at my role at the company and I'm excited about that, to actually ... So I've been working down at the container tier, and orchestration tier for a while, and now I'm excited to get back to like, "Well now let's actually build some cool stuff "and see what this enables on the up--" >> And DevOps is going mainstream, which is a great trend, you're starting to see that momentum beachhead on the enterprises, so-- >> Oh, one takeaway message, for microservices people, please put an Ops person on your microservice team. Usually they start with the DBA, and then they say the middle person and the front-end people. I really want to make sure that they start including Ops in your microservice teams-- >> John: And why is that, what'd you learn there? >> Well because if you're going to do microservices, you're going to be, the team's going to end up doing Ops-y work. And it's kind of foolish not to bring in someone who already knows ... The reason you want all the team together is because they're going to own that. And you also want them to share knowledge. So, if I was on a microservice team, I would definitely want an Ops person teaching me how to do Ops for our stuff. I don't want to reinvent that myself. >> You got to have the right core competencies on that team. >> Steve: Yeah. It's like having the right people in the right position. >> Steve: Exactly. >> Skill player. >> Steve: Yeah, exactly. Okay we're here live in Los Angeles, The Cube's coverage of Open Source Summit North America. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman. More live coverage after this short break. (electronic music)

(lively, bouncy music) >> Host: Live from Los Angeles, it's The Cube, covering Open Source Summit North America 2017, brought to you by the.

(relaxing guitar music) >> Announcer: Live from Los Angeles, it's theCUBE, covering Open Source Summit North America 2017. Brought to you by the Linux Foundation and Red Hat. >> Hey, welcome back everyone, live here in Los Angeles, this is CUBE's live coverage of Open Source Summit North America. I'm John Furrier, as part of the Linux Foundation I'm here with Stu Miniman, co-host now to Wikibon. [Unintelligible] Technical product marketing for Linux containers with Red Hat, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thanks for having me, pleasure to be here. >> Thanks for coming on, appreciate Red Hat has been, again, the gold standard when it comes to Open Source, this conference really is about Linux, so you can't go any further than to look at the shining example of success that is Red Hat. From when I was growing up, back in the day, when Open Source was radical, Tier 2, Tier 3 some would argue, alternative to the big boys who were the proprietary operating systems. Now, Tier 1, well documented, don't need to recycle all that, but the fact is, Rell is a Tier 1, supports multiple, seven, ten, how many years now has support Rell, is it over twelve? >> Yeah, we're 15 years of Red Hat Enterprise Linux at this point. >> Oh yeah, come on, John, remember when Red Hat Advance Server came out in, what was that, 2002, 2001, turned into Rell eventually. John, I was working for an infrastructure company and keepingupwiththecolonel.org was a total nightmare, and it needed some adult supervision, and that's what Red Hat brought. >> Yeah, of course, Stu, and this is well-known, every bang, this is Tier 1, is part of the operational infrastructure, so it's got to be stable, but now you've got all this growth going on, certainly we heard Zemlin talking about it on [Unintelligible] he's the Executive Director, saying, look it, we're going to have potentially by 2026 400 million libraries in Open Source. So certainly the Open Source realm is growing. >> Sure. >> Operating systems still has got to power all these applications and see what the best of both worlds, you want the stability foundational aspect of the operating system, while still encouraging experimentation, failure, growth, iteration, so Agile and DevOps Ethos is about Open Source, it is about trying it, same time you got to keep the lights on, they want downtime. What's your reaction, how do you guys look at that going forward? You want to enable more, but you don't want to break stuff. >> Yeah, I mean, that's really kind of one of the hearts of most of our customers' problems right, is if you put it in terms of spend, 75-80% of what people spend money on in IT right now, is keeping the lights on. That's really long-term not sustainable. Right, for anybody involved. So one of the things that we need to do, as an operating system, and as a... Broader than an just an operating system as a distribution, where customers come to us and not want just OS bits, but they also want tooling and application components. How do we draw that line between things that move a little bit faster and upstream, that are popular and people want and need access to, at the same time providing that really long-term, stable system user space that really shouldn't change over a long period of time, because that's what provides that sort of application stability that we can ride out over a long period of time. >> Matt, in the Keynote this morning, Jim put out a lot of stats, talking about 10,000 lines of code outed daily. 2,500 lines of code removed daily. 450 organizations contributing, so much going on in the space. What are they working on? What are some of the big issues, because it's stability, we've added growth, sure there's cool things like Coobernetties and containers, I remember that the hot t-shirt at the Red Hat Summit this year was Linux's containers, containers are Linux. So, we know a little bit about that story, so what sort of things is the community working on these days? >> Sure, so like you said, a lot of shiny objects, right? Even those objects, to be honest, they're not that shiny, you look at some of the original support for what's now Linux Containers, we're talking 2006, if you really want to draw the line, 2002, but there's a lot of things going on in new hardware enablement, it's not just new applications that are taking advantage of these different kinds of technologies, we've got new vendors coming out, ARM is about set to take off and add some new challenges and choices to the Enterprise customers. We've got a lot of folks who are working in networking, the networking is stacked within Rell has changed dramatically over the past ten years, and with Open Stack and things that are driving through DPDK, and into virtual functions and things along those lines, there's a lot of core stability and core change and things that we think of as stable over time. >> Matt, isn't some of those new work loads we spent a lot of time this last year hearing about edge computing, IoT, being something that's pretty important going forward, Linux looks like it's going to be a lot of these places, mobile, it's already all there. We talked this morning, 2017's the year of the Linux Desktop, just because there's so many devices now that are Linux, so how does the workload impact that? >> Yeah, so everything these days is really starting to get to the point where almost everything is a distributed workload. We've definitely left the single systems, single workload paradigm, and even the traditional up through the past few years, n-tier, we have app, web, and database, that's really starting to get pushed out across multiple devices. Not only is it getting compute closer to the edge with some of the IT devices, but simply looking at how we do reliability, stability, you mentioned DevOps, that whole ability to move that reliability layer away from relying on expensive components and hardware, or expensive components and software, they really distribute that layer of knowledge that the application and use more replaceable, more commodity sorts of productions. >> Matt, [Unintelligible] operations is, one of my degree in my undergraduate in computer science, and back in the 80s everything was just build your own operating systems, again, this is where systems come back. But even with the Cloud today is really a systems game, and all of us guys and gals from the old days are now in vogue again because the Cloud is an operating system. Now you got sub-systems, you got, maybe it's distributed a little bit more decentralized, but again, it's the same game, different era, if you will. So you're starting to see the absence on operating systems, so the question is Intel and the Grading Table, Paul Merit used to call Intel the hardened top, where a lot of proprietary stuff underneath that crust that no one really cares-- [Audio Cuts Out]

(upbeat music) >> Narrator: Live from Boston Massachusetts, it's The CUBE covering OpenStack Summit 2017, brought to you by the OpenStack Foundation, Red Hat and additional ecosystem support. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman joined by my co-host John Troyer. You're watching The CUBE, the worldwide leader in live tech coverage. Happy to welcome to the program Darrell Jordan-Smith who's the Vice President of Telecommunications at Red Hat. Thanks so much for joining us. >> It's great to be here thank you >> All right so Darrell last year at the show you know the telcos were like all in force. I got to interview Verizon. We're going to have Beth who was on the keynote stage on Monday on our coverage tomorrow. I know they're a Red Hat customer. When I hear at Red Hat summit, there were some really big telcos that are red hat customers. So to tell us why telco and OpenStack you know go so well together these days? >> Well telcos are looking for a open source for innovation. They need to change the way that they deliver services today and modernize their network infrastructure to become more agile, and a lot of them are doing that because of 5G, the next generation of services that they will be deploying over their network infrastructure. They can't do that unless they have an agile infrastructure fabric and an agile software capability to deliver those applications over those networks. >> All right well there's a lot to dig into yet. Let's start with NFV was the use case last year. Well 5G IOT definitely want to get into though but my understanding, I simplified it. NFV is just how the telcos can help deliver via software services they have. I mean think about how your set-top box, I can get channels and I can get certain programming. Is that kind of what you see, and how do they do their business model? >> Yeah traditionally, they bought appliances, hardware specific appliances. They put them in network operation centers and many thousands of those around the world. In the US there's tens of thousands of them. They're really moving more to a software based model where they don't necessarily need to buy a fixed appliance with its own silicone. They're going with commercial off-the-shelf x86 based technology and they're actually deploying that in what I call next generation data centers around Open Compute platform being an architecture, where you're looking at storage, compute, networking in a scalable fashion using open source technologies to deploy that in at massive scale. >> Very different from you think about like cloud might be a place where you have services run but the telcos are pushing services with their software out to their consumers. >> Yeah they're changing the core network infrastructure to support that and at the mobile edge in these network operation centers at the edge, they're making those more agile as well in order to push as many services out closely to the customer but also to aggregate content and data that their customers would acquire. So for example, you take a video clip on your phone, there's no point in storing that in the core of the network. You want to maybe store that at the edge, where maybe some of your friends would share it at that point in time, more efficient ways of drive that. >> I wonder if you can expand a little bit. That that term edge because we hear is that the edge of the network? Is that a mobile device? Is that a sensor for IOT in the telecom world? Is it all of the above? >> Well a lot of people use it is all the above but in the context I'm using it, it's at the edge of the network. It's not the device. That is a whole separate set of conversations, and things reach a very IOT-centric. At the moment, the telecommunications companies want to make the edge more efficient. They want to build clouds around the edge. They want to aggregate all those different clouds, and they want to build agile based infrastructure. So similarly to the way that Facebook, Amazon, Netflix, Google deliver their services today, they need to get into that space in order to be agile enough to develop and deploy their next generation of applications and services. >> So at this point OpenStack in its evolution with this customer vertical, it seems like we're not only talking about a cloud but maybe a cloud of clouds. >> Yes absolutely, I mean telcos again, they typically have one of everything. They are looking at decoupled solutions in terms of their network-based infrastructure. They want to be able to manage every layer of that infrastructure independently of the other layers in order to drive maximum flexibility and agility into their infrastructure but also so they don't get locked in to any one particular vendor. That's a big, big theme in the telco space. >> So you use the words agility and flexibility. So I in a previous lifetime, I did work with some telecom providers and they were not known for those words of agility and flexibility. We're in a world now with open source, with CICD, we talked about upgradability, a lot of the talk here at OpenStack is about manageability and flexibility and building, putting containers on top. Maybe we can go there next but do you, as you work with your customers and partners in the telecom space. It seems like they've had to have a cultural shift. I see a lot of people from the carriers here, right. They're as long haired and shaggy, and barefoot as any other engineer here at OpenStack summit. Has there been a real cultural shift inside telecom to accomplish this? >> Yeah, there's a real cultural shift that's ongoing. It's got a ways to go. The telcos themselves are engineeringly orientated. So they traditionally have come from an environment where we'll build it and customers will come. Now they're looking at we need to build it quicker and faster in order to attract customers, get them to come and view our services, get them addicted to a certain degree. Maybe the wrong word but to our content. So building sticky services, trying to reduce the churn they have in their business, driving innovation through open source because I think they've realized that innovation isn't necessarily within their own company. It sits elsewhere so which is the new Uber as it were? Which is new Airbnb? What is the new WhatsApp-based application? They want to create a network infrastructure that's flexible enough with all of those attributes through API so those companies can develop innovative next-generation content and services over their network infrastructure, in order to attract and make services sticky for their customers. >> Darrell, I wonder if you can speak to the complexity of the solutions in the telco space? Last year we spoke to Verizon, and they love what they have but they had to choose some glass, walk over some hot coals to be able to get the solution together. These are big complicated solutions. We've talked in general about OpenStack, and trying to simplify some of the complexity but can you speak to some of the how long it takes to roll these out and some of the effort involved for the telcos? >> Well it's it's sort of a walk, a cruel walk run process to a lot of that because A working with open source is very different than what they traditionally have done, and as you mentioned earlier, traditionally they'll buy an application through our appliance. They'll take nine months to deploy in all their centers. Then another three to six months later, they might switch it off. In the software agile world, they've got to condense that sort of 12 to 18 month period down to maybe three or four weeks. They may stand up a service for an event like the Olympics and then take it down after the Olympics. So there's a lot of complexity and change in the way that they need to deliver those services, and that complexity isn't trivial. So it involves delivering quality of service through the deployment of next generation network infrastructure because they are regulated companies. So they've got to maintain that quality of service in order to be able to bill, and meet the regulations that they they have to adhere to in the markets that they operate their network infrastructure. Very different from the Googles, the Facebooks of the world. They don't have that sort of regulation over their head. The telcos do so they have a level of discipline that they need to achieve in terms of availability of their network infrastructure, the availability of their services, the availability of their applications, and that links into a whole quality of service experience for their customers, and linked into their operation systems support, into their billing system and the list goes on, and on and on. So what we found at Red Hat is that, that is not trivial, that is hard, and a lot of the telcos are very engineeringly oriented. It's great working with them because they really understand the difficulties, and the fact that this is particularly hard. They also know that they want to build it and own it, and understand it themselves, because it's their business model. To them, the network is an asset. It's not something that they can just outsource to someone else, that doesn't necessarily understand that same degree of that asset. So they want to get their heads around that. >> So they need that reliability. From the eyes of a service provider how mature is OpenStack right now? Is it in production? Can they trust it? We're a few more than a few years into the OpenStack evolution so where are we in deployment? >> That, number of operators are in deployment. You mentioned one on a few months ago like Verizon. >> Stu: Yeah, AT&T is on stage. >> Absolutely, AT&T-- >> Deutsche Telekom, the headlines sponsored the event. >> Exactly, I mean, and what they're doing is they're starting very pragmatically. They're looking at specific services, and they're building slowly a service upon service upon service so they go from a crawl to walking, then to a run. I think, what we're seeing in OpenStack is not if but when these guys will deploy at mass scale. We're beginning now to see a general acceptance that this is a methodology and or a technology that they can deploy and will deploy in the NFE context. The other thing that's occurring in the space is they're looking at traditional IT workloads. So a telco-based cloud if you want to use that terminology is just as capable of running IT-based workloads and services as well. So a number of them are looking at their own enterprise and running those environments. Some of them are partnering with some of our partners to build OpenStack public cloud instances. So they want to try and attract services to that environment as well. >> It's interesting you point that out. There's been that ebbing flow of can the telco players be cloud as John pointed out. I worked in telecommunications back in the '90s. Agile and fast was not the thing of the day. One of the big companies who had bought a cloud company just sold off lots of their data centers. Do they feel that they're going to compete against the Amazon, Microsoft, Googles of the world? Do they think they'll be service providers? Where do they see is their natural fit in the cloud ecosystem? >> So my role is on a global basis. In North America, they don't want to, I don't think they feel they can compete in the way that you were intimating in that regard. However, where they do think they can compete and since we're going to probably talk about 5G and IOT, that is the area where they see public cloud applications and services being developed. So they're looking at the insurance industry, the automotive industry, the manufacturing industry, and creating an environment where those applications can be built to many many thousands of millions of devices connected to them. So I think the definition of in North America, of a public cloud infrastructure is going to evolve in that direction. In other markets such as Latin America and in Europe, some of the telecommunications companies believe that they can be competitive in that space. So more recently, Orange announced that they're working with OpenStack to deploy public cloud. Telefonica, Deutsche Telekom, China Mobile, America Movil, they're all using OpenStack to try and enter that specific market space. >> Okay, please talk to us about the 5G angles here. Obviously like Mobile World Congress, it was like be number one conversation. When we went to the Open Networking Summit, it was there. You're the first person to talk about it that I heard I didn't, maybe I missed it in one of the keynotes but you know none of our interviews has come out yet. So how does that fit into the OpenStack picture? >> So 5G is the reason why telcos are building NFEI, that they were NFE because they realize that to connect all of those devices to their network-based infrastructure, they need to do it intelligently, they need to do it at the edge, and they need to have a high degree of flexibility and agility to their network-based infrastructure to create an innovation environment for application developers to connect all those devices. So we talked about smart cars as a good example around 5G. You need low latency, you need the high availability, you need to be reliable, you need to provide all of that network infrastructure as an example plus you need a portfolio of developers that are going to create all sorts of different applications for those vehicles that we driving around on the street. So that without 5G, that does not happen. You're not, you know some metropolitan areas, the amount of connectivity that you have access to in terms of the traditional cloud-based access networking infrastructure doesn't facilitate the amount of density that 5G will actually facilitate. So you need to be able to change the basis in which you're building that infrastructure to lower the cost of the network in terms of being able to drive that. >> All right and I'm curious I think about the global reach we were just talking about. Usually, the global reach of a new technology like 5G lags a little bit in the rest of the world compared to Western Europe and North America. >> Well, I think in Asia, 5G is, if I look at what they're trying to do, the leading vendors ZTE, Samsung, Huawei, they're heavily invested in 5G-based infrastructure, and they don't have, their operators in those part of the world don't have an awful lot of legacy-based infrastructure to be able to have to replace. They can get there a lot faster. The other thing is with 5G, for them, the applications and services in the way that people experience network-based access or Internet if for want of another word is very different than way that maybe we experience it here in the US or in Europe. So I think you're going to see different applications and different business models evolve in different markets in Asia than you would say here in North America. In North America, I think that it's going to take a lot of the operators different business models to look at maybe some of the higher order of applications and services that drive stickiness for their own infrastructure and network services but also some of the more advanced applications like I mentioned smart cars or smart homes, or smart cities or energy or better ways of delivering products in terms of distribution to your home, those those types of applications and services we won't necessarily in some of those other markets be there and similarly for Europe. >> All right Darrell Jordan-Smith, really appreciate you joining us, giving us all the updates on telco, how it fits with OpenStack. Jon Troyer and I will be back with lots more coverage here from the OpenStack summit 2017 in Boston. You're watching The CUBE (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: Live from Boston, Massachusetts, it's theCUBE, covering Red Hat Summit 2017, brought to you by Red Hat. >> In 1993, two years before the height of Microsoft's dominance and amidst a sea of Unix competitors, Red Hat was founded. The company baked over the course of about 20 years and became a dominant open source company and is leading the trend towards cloud and hybrid cloud and containers. Welcome to Boston, everybody. Welcome to Red Hat Summit. This is theCUBE, the worldwide leader in live tech coverage. I'm here with Stu Miniman and Rebecca Knight, my co-hosts for the week, folks. Great to see you guys. Stu, this is your hundredth Red Hat Summit. >> Stu: It's only my fourth because it's the fourth of theCUBE, 13th year of the show itself, Dave, but great to be back here in Boston, you know, our home stadium for Rebecca, you, and me. Glad to have, a little gloomy today, but it's supposed to be nice weather by the time they take 4,000 of the 6,000 attendees here to Fenway on Wednesday, it's supposed to be some nice weather. Beautiful in New England, Red Hat Summit this week, OpenStack Summit next week, so great to be in the hub. >> Dave: And Rebecca, I felt like, well, first of all, great to be working with you. First time for us together. I thought the open was right in your wheelhouse. They opened with a video and the theme was can machines think. What did you make of that? >> So, what really strikes me about this conference is that it's about the technology, it's about the new, the digital transformation that Red Hat is helping facilitate all these companies making, but it's also about really reimagining the workplace of the future. The theme this year is about the individual and powering the individual. So much of what we're going to hear is about how do we engage developers to, to make this digital transformation for these companies? How do we give them the tools they need, not only just the technology, but also the change in mindset and the change in behaviors that they need, to collaborate with others, not only within their own teams, but within different parts of the organization to make these changes? >> So Red Hat's been on a tier, for anybody who follows the company, they do about 2.4 billion dollars a year in revenue, but more importantly, 3 billion dollars in bookings. Unlike many companies who are doing a shift from legacy, you know, trying to keep alive their old business and bring up the new business, Red Hat has a number of tailwinds and one of those is subscription business. Take a company like Oracle for instance, or IBM, that's shifting from a model of upfront, perpetual license into a subscription model. Red Hat, Stu, has always been there and you're seeing it in the numbers, a billion dollars plus on the balance sheet, just really great momentum. The stock price is up. What's your take on all of it? >> Dave, we've watched so many companies in technologies, where you have this huge wave of hype and then how does revenue go? Does it follow, does it peak, and then does it crash? Linux is one of those kind of slow-burn growths. I mean, I remember back, I started working with Red Hat back in 2000, and when I talked to enterprises back then, it was like, "Hey, are you using Linux?" They were like, "No." And they were like, "Wait, Bob in the back corner, "he's been using Linux stuff, "and he's doing some cool stuff." I watched over the next, you know, five to 10 years. It was a slow growth. It just kind of permeated every corner of what we did. I've mentioned, when we do this show, it's like, you know, Red Hat, a 15 billion dollar market cap or whatever, but we wouldn't have Google if it wasn't for the Linux adoption in the world today. So much of the Internet is based on that. You commented during the keynote, Dave, you look at the developer wave, the cloud wave, containers, you know, the shifting to kind of a subscription model rather than kind of the capping. All of those are things that kind of help lift Red Hat. It's where they're growing. It's why they've had 60 consecutive quarters of revenue growth. Now, it's not the 50% revenue growth like some of the cloud guys today or not explosive, but steady, solid, they're customers love them, great excitement here, great geek show, lots of hoodies and backpacks at the show here and exciting to watch. We've got lots of new technologies and announcements and things to dig into the next three days. >> It's interesting, you know, Rebecca, Stu and I had the pleasure of-- We were handing out with some big MIT brains last year in London talking about the second Machine Age and how humans have always replaced machines or machines have always replaced humans. Now, it's in the cognitive world. You see, again, the theme of this morning, a lot of it was AI related. Of course, the controversy there is that as machines replace humans, it hollows out the core of the middle class, the middle working class. But, the reality is that everything is getting digitized and those types of skills are going to be fundamental for growth in personal vocations, the economy. What do you think? >> I agree completely. I think that really the future is going to be humans and machines working side by side together. Last year, Jim Whitehurst was up here at Red Hat talking about how so much of what we still need to see from human workers is creativity, is judgment, is thought, is insight. Right now, machines still aren't quite there yet. The question is teaching machines to think and really having these two beings working together, collaborating together, and that really is where we're seeing things change. >> We talk all the time on theCUBE about companies are essentially, all companies are becoming software companies. Marc Andreessen said software's leading the world. Marc Benioff said they'll be more SAS companies coming from non-tech firms than tech firms. Behind all that, Stu, we heard a bunch of sort of geeky technologies today, but what are the things that are powering Red Hat's momentum? We talked about hybrid cloud, open source, containers. Help us unpack all that stuff. >> Yeah, so first of all, right, what is that next kind of billion dollar opportunity? One of the main pieces for Red Hat is OpenShift. Now, when we first started covering this show, it was like, ah, we know about infrastructures as a service and software as a service, but maybe platform as a service is where it's going. That's kind of where OpenShift was. Today, Paths, we said it a year or two ago, Paths is kind of passe, where OpenShift is a solution that creates a platform, that allows Red Hat to deliver newer technologies as a service. Containers and Kubernetes, I didn't hear Kubernetes mentioned in the keynote, but Red Hat is the largest enterprise contributor. It's basically Google, a bunch of independent people, and then Red Hat is a major contributor to Kubernetes, helping to drive that adoption, that whole next generation application development is where Red Hat is key, that migration to microservices. As we see that transition, it was interesting to see kind of the application discussion. It was how can we take, how can we help you build those new apps, but then how do we take our existing apps? At the Google show, at this show, and some other shows, it's been kind of the lift if shift movement, it's kind of cool again and not cool because we're doing, it's helping to take those legacy applications, move them into a more modern era and that's where OpenShift, there was like the announcement of the OpenShift.io, all the tools they have from Ansible and Jboss, all of these open source projects that Red Hat is very much a core part of that are going to help drive that next wave and help drive them-- There was an announcement, it was mentioned briefly today. I know they're going to talk more about it tomorrow, but the press release went out about a deeper partnership with Amazon Web Services. I think this is likely going to be the number one thing we talk about leaving the show, which is deeper partnership to say my application can live in AWS on OpenShift or can live in my data center on premises and still using AWS services with OpenShift. That whole hybrid or multicloud story that we built out, Red Hat's trying to make a good place why they should be there and extend for AWS because we know that that's the place that they need to compete against Microsoft with all their entire Azure play, Vmware trying to play that, so multifaceted, really interesting dynamic from a competitive standpoint. The opportunity would be billions of dollars opportunity for a company like Red Hat. >> Great, alright, we've got to wrap, but we will be covering those announcements and others. That AWS announcement knocks down all the major clouds now: Azure, Google, AWS, IBM. I guess Oracle's left., but in China. >> Stu: Support Oracle in application, but, you know. >> In terms of clouds. Alright, so keep it right there everybody. We'll be back. Wall-to-wall coverage here from Boston at the Red Hat Summit. This is theCUBE. We'll be right back.

>> Live from Boston, Massachusetts. It's theCUBE covering Red Hat Summit 2017. Brought to you by Red Hat. {Electronic music} >> Welcome to the session wrap of the Red Hat Summit. I am your host, Rebecca Knight, along with my co-host Stu Miniman. Wrapping up three great days of open source talk. Where are we, Stu? Tell us the state of Red Hat, the state of open source. What have we learned? >> You mean, beyond we're in the seaport district of Boston, Massachusetts, you know, a couple blocks away from >> or the heart of open source the new open innovation lab coming from Red Hat. So, Rebecca it's been a lot of fun with you these last couple of days. >> I feel the same way. >> Did over thirty interviews: executives from Jim Whitehurst you know on down to many of the product teams many people participating greatly in open source, open innovation award winners, the women of open source award winners, open invest in lab participants. A lot of topics but okay Red Hat itself. I've worked with Red Hat in various roles in my career for quite a long time. We didn't talk a lot about Linux this week. >> Stu, Stu, Stu I've got to stop you Linux is containers, containers is Linux. So we're hearing so much about containers it's the same diff. >> Yeah, well I got the t-shirt "Linux is containers, containers are Linux" however, if I even look at Red Hat's messaging Red Hat Enterprise Linux is like the first platform what they built around and it's a little surprising that they didn't at least in the conversation we had, it was very much about some of the newer things coming into the show I said What's the progress that they've made around some of the cloud offerings, some of the management offerings, Ansible, weaving its way into a lot of the products. OpenShift really maturing and expanding the portfolio with things like the OpenShift io to be able to really help with application modernization. Middleware progressing even heard a little bit of the future where they are doing things like server lists. So Red Hat's making good progress. We love when we do these shows multiple years is they talk about it, they deliver on it, and in the way a couple guests talked about there's a little more transparency in open source and being part of all of these communities you have some visibility as to where you're going it doesn't mean that things don't slip every now and again and not every piece makes it into the product lease that they're expecting, but they've made great progress. Linux still is just a mainstay. It's a piece of lots of environments. The ecosystem reminds me of the same way I talk about OpenStack which we'll go into next week. We had a great session with Radhesh towards the end here talking about OpenStack in many ways is like that it's weaving its way into lots of infrastructure pieces some we'll dig into more this week, but let's focus on this week for now. >> Right, so you said we didn't talk a lot about Linux. I set you straight there. But what else did we, what else did you not hear? What do you remain skeptical of? As you said, Red Hat seems to be going from strength to strength. It had two point four billion in revenue this year. >> Yeah it did. For 2016, two point four billion in revenue and three billion in bookings >> Right And there was, I read a financial report that Jim Whithurst said Golda Company is five billion within five years. And you look at it and you say okay from two point four to five well, you know >> yeah actually if it was three billion in bookings and I think back to three years ago when we first started it was around two billion dollars that was almost a 50% growth rate in three years. So, if three years from now we do 50% growth rate we're going to have three to four point five. Of course the math is not linear, there's scaling of the company, there's lots of products in here, but they've got a big tam. >> Ambitious but achievable. >> Ambitious but achievable. The question we've had for a bunch of years is when I look at the cloud. Public cloud is affecting a lot of the traditional infrastructure companies. Red Hat is a software company. They're an open source company. We heard the cloud messaging. Microsoft and Google up on stage. Andy Jassy on video. That was a big question coming in. What about Amazon? How close will Red Hat do? Amazon actually has their own AMI for Linux which means I can get a package for Linux from Amazon not only that I could take that package outside of Amazon and put it in a data center so I could use the same type of Linux for AWS to work with Red Hat to take RedShift make what's deeper integration in the public cloud with AWS and if I put that on premises I'm going to have access to the AWS services so that tighter application integration for what they're laying out really the open hybrid cloud. Red Hat terminology, we'll see if other people take that up. But really it's a multi-cloud world and Red Hat has a good position to live in lots of those environments and provide and really help solutionize and give really almost that almost adult supervision that the enterprise wants for all of these open packages. So I was heartened to see the progress made. Strong ecosystem. As always, you know passionate customers, developers, and really just heartwarming stories of you know making the world a better place. What was your take on those pieces? >> Yes, absolutely. Those are really what you come away remembering. It is the story of a woman saving a man's life in a park in Singapore. It is the story of an emergency room doing a better job of serving its patients. It is scaling up technology use in the developing world. This is what you come away. And you say that is open source. >> Maybe next year that apple you get at the grocery store won't have been sitting there 18 months. >> Well maybe. But in a code climate. Boston going to be beautiful year round. No, but so I really do agree and that is I think what Red Hat did so brilliantly at this summit. Is really showcasing the ways in which this technology is having an impact at transforming industries obviously, helping businesses make more money, but also really doing a lot of good. >> Yeah, absolutely. And Rebecca I want a big shout out to the community here. This is a community show. Red Hat is a great participant of the community. We talked to Jim Whitehurst they want to help raise up the community it's not about Red Hat leadership. We don't hear number one at a show like this, we hear where they're participating and when they get involved they go deep. We heard about OpenPOWER. How excited they are that Red Hat you know getting involved and working in some of these pieces. So, we could not be here without Red Hat support. It's our fourth year doing the show. We had a blast with it. We see Red Hat at a lot of shows. They bring us great customers, their ecosystem partners and their executives. And it's been a pleasure to cover it. >> Yeah. No, I couldn't agree more and I do think, just in terms of what your talking about, the humility of the Red Hat folks is that they aren't going banging drums of we're number one in this and number one in that and you sort of think, "okay, blah, blah." No, they don't at all. They really are saying, "No we're about making our partners and our customers shine." >> Yeah, yeah. What's going to happen with the future of jobs? You know where are people going to work these days in the future? >> How will they work? >> Rebecca: What kind of processes will they work with? >> We've all said it's very much a global ecosystem here. Got to interview quite a few international guests here and hear how technology is spreading, how people are interacting, how innovation happens in a global environment. I'm sure ties back to a lot of the things that you write about. >> Absolutely. And I think, that Radhesh some of his words of wisdom was technology is the easy part what we need to be fundamentally rethinking is how we write these applications, how we develop these applications, how we design them, and how we deliver them. And, also really bearing in mind the end user. And, that is what we learned in a lot of our other sessions. Is really thinking about that. We heard from another person you know your competitor is maybe not necessarily the competitor you're thinking of it's the last app you opened or the last application that that company was using and what is drawing them toward that application or that technology or that infrastructure and not yours? [Stu]- Right. >> And so it's really thinking much more broadly about technology and who you're competing with and how you're working. >> Yeah, that was it was a bank. I loved that. They're like we're not competing against other banks it's like where's that other attention span that you have. >> Rebecca: Right, where are your eyeballs. >> One of my favorite lines is you know what you, Michelangelo, and Einstein have in common? You only have 24 hours in the day so you need to make sure you take advantage of that. That's the kind of thing that >> That's depressing Stu, when you leverage >> I don't know. the community. I thought it's inspiring. >> Okay. You know we can do >> Good great things when we work together and do that. So, we're always like oh I'm too busy or I don't have time it's like hogwash. >> Right. >> That's not the case. I'm inspired and fired up after all the conversations we had especially some of these great users here and looking forward to the next one. >> You're looking forward to the next one, you're looking forward to OpenStack coming up. >> Yeah, oh my gosh so right. >> Got to plug it. >> So Rebecca next week we're both going to be on theCUBE but in two different locales. Our team is in the midst of the sprint that is the spring tour. So we had the Micron event and we're here. Next week our team is at Service Now Knowledge, we're also at DELL EMC World in Vegas, we're at OpenStack Summit back in Boston. We've got some of our teams going to Microsoft Build. I'm sure we'll have analyst reports follow up from there. Boy do we have more shows than I can mention through the rest of May and June and beyond. Check out siliconangle.tv to catch all of them. Rebecca I'm going to let you do the close, but I have to say a big thanks to our team here and remote. >> Yes, yes. Leonard, Chuck, Alex, Ava. >> We love you all. Jeff and the team back there. You know we were doing some cool things playing with Facebook Live as part of this event, we always love playing around with some of the new technologies finding more ways that we can help reach you. We always appreciate your feedback. And Rebecca take us on home. >> Thank you so much for joining us here at theCUBE Red Hat Summit, Boston, Massachusetts. I'm Rebecca Knight for Stu Miniman, Thanks so much. {Electronic music}

>> Announcer: Live from Boston, Massachusetts, it's The Cube, covering Red Hat Summit 2017. Brought to you by Red Hat. >> Welcome back, I'm your host, Rebecca Knight along with Stu Miniman, my co-host. We are joined by Sandra Rivera, Vice President and general manager Network Platform Groups at Intel. Thanks so much, Sandra. >> Thank you for having me. >> I want to talk about a point you made during your keynote address and you talked about the transformative power of data and just about how data will change the face of so many industries, from healthcare to airlines to the financial services industry. And yet there are so many challenges that companies and developers themselves face in dealing with this avalanche of data. Sifting through it, understanding it, sorting it, chunking it the right way and really understanding what it's saying. Can you talk about the challenges and then also what companies are doing to overcome the challenge? >> It is really at the crux of both challenge and opportunity is what do you do with all the massive amounts of data that is being generated, and I spoke about how an average user really generates or consumes about one and a half gigabytes of data per day, but if you fast forward of what's happening in the rest of the industry, we connect to cars at four terabytes of data per day or connect to planes at five terabytes or a smart factory at one petabyte of data a day. What do you do with all of that because today, much of that goes wasted and unutilized, right? We create these large data lakes and yet, the value creation portion that you need to turn it into something useful and profitable is really challenging. The things that we're doing to address those challenges, collectively with the ecosystem are really building standardized sets of software interfaces and APIs through our contributions and open source and open standards because we do believe that these are problems that are best addressed when you're doing it in community and in parallel and much of the investments that we're making in the underlying ingredient technologies, be it hardware or software, have to be exposed at a much higher level that, for the application developer, they know that there are some tools underneath giving them performance or capabilities that they desire for their customers, but not having to know a lot of those intricacies, so lot of that abstraction work that we do collectively with the ecosystem, and with Red Hat being a great partner of ours in that vein, in that effort, is really to abstract all those complexities and make it easier to onboard the developers and let them innovate and really focus on the value creation portion of the problem statement. >> So do developers now need a new layer of education to get the data? I mean, it could be data science. >> Exactly, well, and a lot you see a lot of the larger corporations hiring in data scientists, but everyone is not going to be a data scientist and everyone's not going to be able to afford one on their payroll, so our job is really to have, again this abstraction capability, but one that takes advantage of the underlying innovations that we invest in, both from a hardware and a software perspective. And then to really try to provide some of that education capability and some of the things that I spoke about are, as part of our community, a community that we call the Builder's Community. In fact, I was trying to get folk to go look at builders.intel.com because you see we have hundreds and hundreds of publications there of solution briefs and technical documents and reference architectures and tip and tricks and techniques for how you can optimize your software to take advantage of all of these innovations underneath instead of doing that trial and error that you would do if you're just starting from ground up and doing it and repeating that same process over and over again. It's really embracing much more of that Dev Ops model, which is new to the networking industry, but very familiar to the IT type developer. >> Sandra, I'm wondering if you can help us connect the dots. I think back to when we started talking about the term big data. One of the terms I loved, it was the bit flip from that all that data is going to be a challenge to, "hey, this is an opportunity for us to do good things." But when you start talking about the evolution now to machine learning, artificial intelligence. Big data, there's so many companies that are like, "we tried these initiatives and over 50% of them "were failing. "We just weren't delivering on the value. "We were investing, but we weren't there." Why will it be different, how is the ecosystem matured, this kind of maturation on the market? >> A lot of it is really about how do you make the access to all of that data look like another compute problem? And we have a lot of compute application developers that are very familiar with the types of software tools and optimization capabilities that we have, not just in the Intel portfolio, but in the ecosystem through our efforts in Open Source and Open Standards. I think that we learn that trying to dig down and get every ounce of optimization from the hardware by hard coding to a lot of those interfaces is not the fastest way to bring a broad community of developers onboard. And the investments that we have been making is in trying to both build up from a software side perspective, but also build out our capabilities in our existing software tool chains that we have that we have hundreds of thousands of developers that are familiar with developing to those interfaces. When you do that, or when we've been doing that, we don't think that the application developer will particularly care or should particularly care if that workload is running partly on a general purpose processing CPU, partly in a FPGA, which is another asset and capability that we have and is highly programmable or running in an ASIC environment which is another capability that we brought into the company specifically around machine learning and artificial intelligence, through an acquisition of a company by the name of Nirvana. Again, all of those are your building blocks, but our job is to create the software environment that just let's you put it together like Lego Blocks as opposed to really having to know the intricacies and complexities of the underlying ingredient technologies. >> And how does the Open Source initiatives help us get to that customization that I might need for specific verticals and help accelerate the growth for everyone? >> A lot of the investments that we've been making is both in the virtualization layer, but also in container types of technologies. I talked about the Open Shift initiative that we have with Red Hat and with other partners where we're looking at Docker and Kubernetes and container types of deployment models in addition to VM types of deployment models. If you look at everything that is happening in the industry and the investments going there, it really is very much around upleveling the tools so that you can take advantage of the underlying capabilities, but you do have opportunities for customization that don't require, necessarily, programming micro engines down at the bare metal layer or lower layers of the hardware stack, so it very much is the playbook around. If you want to enable a broad ecosystem, you have to lower the barriers to entry, you have to give them a tool chain that they can more easily adapt to or program to and you have to show them opportunities by working directly with the end customers to again, we talked about financial industry or healthcare industry that allows you to optimize for the problems that they're facing or the opportunities that they see as well. Some of the work we do is not just on the technology side, but very much in terms of matchmaking to the end customers and doing the proof of concept and doing the learnings and that iterative process of uncovering the things that you thought were going to be big problems sometimes aren't and the things that you didn't anticipate would be challenges sometimes are and it's hard work, but it actually is really being successful in terms of there's a lot of interest in this area, there's many more tools, there's more investment going in and there's a lot of opportunity for innovation and growth. >> And particularly with the emerging force of artificial intelligence and 5G that really will have a transformative effect on the way we customers, just individual customers interact with these industries. You had some great examples. >> I talked a little bit about a banking application that's sort of natural language processing that happens and the ability to have an AI assistant what can help you when you just speak in regular sentences and syntax but also get smarter over time to learn your individual habits and preferences and really, will provide advice. Not just answer questions but actually provide some investment advice, let's say. We talked about AI in sports, which is another great area for application of artificial intelligence and learning movements and motions and form of an athlete's swing, or an athlete's form or position as they're exercising their sport, but one of the other areas that we're seeing a lot of application is in something as old as agriculture, which is a 23,000 year old industry, but smart and connected cows and smart and connected wine, which is a wonderful application. >> Rebecca: Sure, sign me up! >> But for the farmers to understand the soil quality and to know the forecast and the moisture and the sunshine and the rainfall. I mean, all of these things really allow them to be more effective and have a higher output. More successful crops, more profits, and even their farming equipment. All the sensors that are in farming equipment to be able to predict a failure of the equipment or a service requirement for that piece of equipment, so all of these things that you realize that anything that can be smart and connected is going to be smart and connected. We fundamentally believe that at Intel that whether you're talking about sports and skateboards and bikes or you're talking about industries, financial, medical certainly is a huge one, education or agriculture, there's so many opportunities for you to really have that value creation element of the data collection process. >> I want to ask you also, about the technology industry and the community within the technology industry. It's getting a bad rap these days. There's very little diversity, there's very few women, particularly in leadership positions, very few minorities. I know that this is a cause that you champion personally and professionally. First of all, is it as bad as the headlines when you're in it and second, what are you doing to change it both as an individual leader and what Intel is doing? >> This is something that Intel is deeply committed to from our CEO through our leadership team and really driving throughout the organization. It isn't just because it's the right thing to do, diversity is the right thing to do but it just makes business sense. If you look at just women in general and women and men, women make over half of the purchasing decisions in a family, and actually, in the household, they make more than half the purchasing decisions for the big ticket items, and so it's kind of dumb to not include more women in leadership positions that could have a different perspective on product development and features and trade offs and capabilities in just organically, what you do in terms of your own product innovation. But beyond that, we also know that any organization that has diversity and it's men, it's women, it's ethnicity, it's experience, large company, small company, it's different cultures and backgrounds, you will drive a better business result. Data proves it over and over and over again that you are quicker to innovate, you're quicker to find and identify problems, you're quicker as a team to just move to something that is more innovative faster and it's proven that all of those companies that have more diversity on their boards and in their senior leadership team do drive better business outcomes, so from that perspective, it's again, the right thing to do, but it also makes good business sense. But it is a complex problem and at Intel, we certainly know it's a pipeline problem that starts at a very young age, in terms of just getting, in particular, more girls interested in science, technology, engineering, and math. Then when they graduate, it's attracting them to come and really be engineers and to maintain that technical passion that they have and sometimes in the face of a lot of adversity, because we know that sometimes their inputs get marginalized or discounted, but then we find that even after we've made it all through that that it's a retention problem from the perspective that women want to see a career progression just like men do, and typically, that is just a bigger challenge for women because the people that make those decisions or provide those opportunities, there's not enough women that are advocating and frankly, not just women, but there are not enough men advocating for those women, so we have a lot that we're investing in this very multifaceted problem. It is a journey, but to your point, I'm not discouraged. I really do think it's better than it's ever been. >> And the bro culture, you talked about the women who may get discouraged because they're not called on in a meeting, they're not chosen for that cool new project. That is deflating. >> It is deflating, and those are the thing that you have to address, but one of the ways that we have found to do that is that you have to assume that there is a bias. We all have biases. This is one thing that we learn is that if you have a brain, you have a bias. It's not good or bad, it just is. There's so many ways to overcome those biases. There's all kinds of ways. We know this from studies that were done. Women that were trying out for the Philharmonic Orchestra in New York. >> Rebecca: The blind audition. >> If you did the audition behind the curtain, they were chosen 50% more of time than if they weren't behind the curtain because you just tend to, your bias is, "well, I didn't hear them play that well," but it's unconscious. You don't realize that you're actually doing that. THere's so many ways that you can overcome the unconscious bias, but you have to acknowledge that it exists and once it exists, then there's a lot of tools and techniques that we employ at Intel in terms of having more diverse hiring panels, having more diverse candidates that you're bringing in, and establishing your criteria for hiring before you meet the candidates, and then assessing each candidate against that criteria so that you don't get to change your mind afterwards. There's lots of ways, but truly, I am very encouraged. I've been at this a long time and I think it is a much better environment now than it was. It's nowhere where we need it to be, but yeah, the culture is tough, but it's not as bad as it was and it is getting better every day. >> Great, well, thank you so much Sandra Rivera. We appreciate your time. >> Sandra: Thank you. >> I'm Rebecca Knight for Stu Minimen. We'll be back with the wrap just after this. 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>> Announcer: Live from Boston, Massachusetts, it's The Cube covering Red Hat Summit 2017. Brought to you by Red hat. >> I'm joined by my co-host, Stu Miniman. Stu, this is day one of the conference: 20 keynotes, six general sessions, people from 70 countries gathered here in Boston, Massachusetts. You are a Red Hat Summit veteran. Thoughts, impressions of the first day. What has struck you really? >> So first of all, it's like Red Hat itself. The company just keeps growing. It's just one of those, you know, strong progress. We talked a little bit over the intro this morning with Dave Vellante as, what is it, 60 quarters consecutively that the company has had revenue growth. It's like, I've worked for a lot of tech companies. It's like, I remember when I worked for (mumbles) when they were doing it (mumbles). They have a miss and the stock kind of drops. IBM, you know, has had quarter and quarter and things like this, but with all of these waves and look, Red Hat's not the biggest company out there, but they are an important player in many changes in the ecosystem. This is one of my favorite developer shows that we cover at the show. Of course, Open Source, we used to say, okay, software's leaving the world and Open Source is eating software. Red Hat's right in the middle of this. I think most people agree. There is really only one way to Red Hat. There's not going to be a Red Hat of something else. There's no one else to really capture that. They got involved at a certain point in time where they could have that model, but they've extended it. They understand what they're doing. They're getting involved in a lot of interesting technologies and there's a lot of people, like most conferences that we go to, there's a lot of passionate people that are really interested, very tech savvy group here, going into all of these breakouts. Many came yesterday for some things. They're coming for a whole week to just dig in, do demos. Down on the show floor, they've got little coating challenges and VR things. I mean there's just a lot of pieces of the show and we only get to see a part of it, but I've enjoyed the customers, the executives, and only one day of three that we're covering so far. >> It is early days in the summit, but where would you say that we are in terms of the maturity of the cloud? We heard from Jim Whitehurst, the CEO, he's going to be on the program tomorrow. He talked about how cloud strategy really is the #1 thing on customers' mind. The cloud is not new and we are really evolving and is maturing, where are we? >> Right, a couple of stats from the keynote this morning. It was 84% of customers have a cloud strategy. Now those of us in the analyst world, we might say, "Well, let's see whether they really have a strategy "they understand," and 59% have a multi-cloud environment which doesn't surprise us. Most people, the joke we used to have was, you had two types of customers, those that were using Amazon and those that didn't realize that some group was using Amazon, reminds me of a comment I made earlier, about like Linux itself. There was always, 15 years ago, big companies would be like, "oh, no, we're a Unix shop," or "we're looking at windows." No, no, no, there's the guy in the corner. He's been using Linux for awhile and that's been a big driver, so cloud absolutely is maturing. I loved, it was an interesting discussion we had with Paul Cormier towards the end of the day. We were seeing Ramgji from Google talking about how we've got the infrastructure and we've got the applications. And I'm an infrastructure guy, but I knew from day one, the reason you build infrastructures is because of your application. If I can just buy SaaS, I don't care about the infrastructure underneath it. The SaaS provider sure does. We talked a lot to SaaS providers as to how they're building their solution. If I'm using infrastructure as a service, you know, there's some I need to understand the infrastructure and there's plenty of infrastructure here, everything from, there's the storage and networking teams, Open Source is permeating every corner of the environment, so it's maturing, but in many ways it's gotten more complex. Cloud was supposed to, many of us thought, simplify the environment, but boy, it seems that many of the things that we had in previous ways as it gets more mature, gets a little bit more complex. Red Hat tries to take those pieces together, build them into solutions. We've talked about there's Red Hat Linux. Enterprise Linux is the platform that can live in many environments. Open Shift is something that allows to encapsulate all of those services, things like containers, we're working with our cloud data applications, and how I want to build them, Open Shift's going to help and you know Cooper Netties goes into the mix so Red Hat is places strategic bets, and, you know, has a strong position in the number place and has big partners. It's really interesting to see. We've had a couple on already, and we'll have many on through the week from key providers in the infrastructure and cloud players out there. >> I think the theme of this year's conference is the power of the individual, and it really is. I mean, we heard from Sam Ramji who said, "This is the age of the developer." Developers have more respect, more veneration, than ever before and yet we also heard from Sandra Rivera, it is also harder than it has ever been before to be a developer because there is just so much data and it's hard to know the difference between the good data and the bad data and where you find the right insights to make decisions that drive the business on that data and if you're a developer, you might not have the business savvy to do that, so it's a real balance here that the companies and developers themselves are trying to strike. Are they doing a good job? I mean, is it still too early? >> It's funny. When you say that it makes me think of in the machine-learning space, it's how do we get the data to train the machine to understand what is good or not, and you know, I wish they'd done that for us when we all went to college because in my job, it's always like, okay, what data can we trust? Well, if you remember from Princess Bride, it was like, with Versini, it was like, well, I know a vendor told me information, so therefore, I know I can't trust that data, but if I take someone else's data, you know, it gets very confusing as it, what I'm saying, is any single piece of data a lot of times you know you can throw that out because maybe it's good, maybe it's not, but how do I get, understand the trends, understand what's going on. I love talking to practitioners here that when they're talking about their business and the impact it's had. We had one of the customers on today was like, "Look, I deployed this, and I have like $6 million "worth of savings in my business year every year. I mean, that's hard information, hard to argue with it. Now are there other solutions that might do that? Sure, but yeah, it's challenging to understand what's good data, what's not good data. As an industry, you know, whether that's the kind of the people or the machines themselves. >> I think the other question that we're all grappling with here is that, and you talked about this earlier, just talking about the evolution of Red Hat that you've seen in coming to this summit all these years. This is a company founded in 1993. Today it has a market cap of $15 billion, 2.4 billion in revenue, nearly 8,000 employees. Can a big company, and it's a big company now, can it innovate, can it truly innovate and we heard in the keynote one of the things that Jim Whitehurst was trying to do was to cultivate a startup mindset. Is that possible? >> Yeah, it's a great question, and I know, Rebecca, you and I've been talking about this throughout the week so far as to big companies have challenges because there are the structure and the organization and what drives the business. What's interesting about Red Hat, of course, is that sure they have products, but underneath it, it's all Open Source, so community is in their DNA. As Paul Cormier said, he's like "We couldn't "buy a company and do it closed-source again." They did that a couple years ago, it didn't go well. They were going to transition it, but it's been a case study that's been written up. (talking over each other) >> Me and Jim in the room alone, yes. >> Absolutely, so what's interesting is Red Hat is more like a community in many ways. As Jim Whitehurst spoke, is the open organizations so they act more like an Open Source community than they do a company, of course, that being said, they're profitable, they have employees, they have benefits, they have locations all around the world so it's been interesting to see how Red Hat adopts certain technologies, contributes to them. You know, it would be interesting to see who else Jim Whitehurst tomorrow and say okay, you know, what is a product that was developed by Red Hat versus a project that was taken in by Red Hat, something I've seen over the last three or four years, a lot of acquisitions they made, it was, let's take Open Stack for example. There is a big survey that's done twice a year that said what are people using and what are they interested in with Open Stack, and it felt like that was the buying guide for Red Hat because it was like, "Oh, okay, here's the sent-to-us stuff, "that was pretty interesting. "Well, we can't buy Konica, we'll buy Sento West," and that comes under the umbrella. "Oh, there's this storage management piece "that actually is open source that people "are using for Open Stack, well let me buy that one, too." So Red Hat has become inquisitive, but it's to get deeper engagement in the community. They are all Open Source so always there is that balance in big companies of what do I do with R & D and what do I do with M & A? And Red Hat has done both. I think they've done a good job of moving the industry forward. Innovation is a lot of times a buzz word, but they do some good stuff. They contribute a lot. People here are very positive about what's going on. Just because they haven't created the next flying car or things like that. >> But they're on that. We heard here that they're thinking about it. I mean, I think that's also, I didn't mean to ask the question insinuating that they're not innovating, but I do think that particularly at a time where we are seeing Microsoft years of no growth, Intel, stalled growth, you know, what is Red Hat's secret sauce, and also what is going to the breaking point for these other lagging enterprise companies? When will we see some new ideas and fresh perspective? >> Yeah, it's interesting 'cause we write this whole, the shift of what's happening with cloud, the wave of the machine-learning, the augmented intelligence or artificial intelligence, how much is that going to ding the traditional companies, especially the infrastructure companies. Red Hat touches it, but they're much broader. Their growth, they're an Open Source company. It's interesting. I've seen a lot of other companies, the Open Sourced-based ones, "Oh, we're not "an Open Source company. "We're an enterprise software company," or "software company." I'm sure we asked Red Hat if they were a software company, they will say well, of course, like everything we deliver is software, but at their DNA, they are Open Source, and that kind of sets them apart from the pack even though there are other examples Dave Vellante went through this morning of other companies that are heavily involved in Open Source, struggling with that how do we monetize Open Source. >> Well, is it a problem with the business model? Why is it so challenging? >> It's a great question. The first time I interviewed Jim Whitehurst, it's like "Jim, why aren't there more billion dollar Open Source companies," and his answer was, you know, Not being flippy," he's like, "Look, selling free is hard." >> Yeah, that's a great point, but I think that we should, we need to dig a little deeper and hopefully we can get to the bottom of that by day three. >> Absolutely, and I tell ya, I'm sitting here listening to, you know, we'll be doing the Cloud Foundry Summit in June there, which is pivotal as making a lot of money with that, but most of the other companies not doing so much. We were just a Docker Con. A couple weeks ago, Docker Company seems to be growing, doing well. They just changed their CEO today so hot news out on SiliconANGLE.com. Ben Golub, the CEO, I just interviewed him a couple weeks ago and now he's moving the board, but they're bringing the Chairman of the Board to be CEO, so we look at all these companies: Cloudera just IPO'd. Hortonworks is a public company. These companies that have Open Core or Open Source as a major piece of what they're doing, none have had the just measured growth and success that Red Hat does, so you know, Red Hat has a case study. It still seems to be one that stands alone category by themselves, but you know, partnering and growing and doing great, and it's exciting to cover. >> Day two, anything you're particularly excited about? >> Yeah, so I got a taste of the AWS-enhanced partnership talking about how Open Shift is going to have deeper integration and we talked a little bit with Paul Cormier so I suspect Jim Whitehurst will be talking to him about it. We have one of the main guys involved in that from Red Hat side will be on our program tomorrow. So the keynote tomorrow, I'll be watching here. Maybe there'll be a special guest during the keynote talk about that announcement some, but you know, obviously a space we watch real closely. We had Optum, one of the customers on today, he said, "I use Open Shift and I'm using Amazon and want to do it most and this is a game-changer for me," so we think this is really interest to watch, really, you talked about maturity early in this segment here, the maturity of hybrid cloud. If Amazon starts to get deeper into the data centers, partnering with companies like Red Hat and like VMware, that will help them to stave off some of the competition that's coming at them. (mumbles) to Microsoft and Google who's getting Cooper Netties everywhere. Lots more to dig in with. There's some announcements today but a lot more to come and you know, more customers, more partners, more Red Hatters. >> That's great, great. Well, we are looking forward to being back here tomorrow bright and early. Thank you for joining us. I'm Rebecca Knight for Stu Miniman. We'll see you back here tomorrow. (innovative tones)

>> Narrator: Live (upbeat music playing) from Boston, Massachusetts. It's The Cube! Covering Red Had Summit 2017. Brought to you by Red Hat. >> Welcome back to The Cube's coverage of the Red Hat Summit here in Boston, Massachusetts. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight, we are joined by Andre Baumgart and Dorothee Rhein Straub of Swiss-based easiER AG; easiER AG is a Swiss-based emergency room management company. Dorothee tell us about the idea, where it started. >> I'm an MD. And working in emergency rooms for several years now. And I thought it's annoying how people have to wait if they want to be seen by a physician. And I thought, if I am able to make an appointment for a headrest or just reserve a seat in a movie, it should be able to make an appointment for an physician even in an emergency. And that's why I came up with the idea; it's like checking in in a hotel. It's so easily done on your phone and I shared my ideas with my partners, Andre and Kai, and they thought it's something worthwhile to pursue. That's how it came along. >> So, you're physicians and you saw this, a problem from the doctors' side, from the providers' side. >> Actually, I thought problem from the patients' side 'cause I'm trying to think for patient. And I'm more relaxed if I have a problem, myself, I'm more relaxed if I can sit at home and wait for an appointment or if I know that one of the physician will see me today; instead of trying to get there and just be sitting around an emergency room and waiting area. >> And what about the provider side, though? What is it like, for you too, as a physician, trying to make sure you're seeing all the patients that need you? >> I think one of the good things about this app is as well I can schedule my day, I can tell my employees what they will be expecting what kind of patients, I can trigger or schedule the workload as well. And you can keep in touch with your patients and I think that's a very important thing, to be in touch with your patients and your employees. That's one thing, too. >> So that was the problem you were trying to solve. >> Dorothee: Yeah. >> So, tell me, after she shared this idea with you, so then where did you go next? What was the next process in the, the next step in the process? >> After we discussed what to do with it, and we selled it internally to the hospitals management but, unfortunately, due to budgets and due to other projects strategically, they decided not to do it. And then we said, "hey, it's such a great idea "to have a booking.com-like emergency room "scheduling system that we should follow this, "right, and we should do it?" And then we said, "okay, let's start our own thing." And we discussed with whom you could do it and we found Kai as a perfect partner. And we said, "okay, let's do it together." And so the company started, essentially, and that was the foundation of easiER AG, then. Yeah? >> And then, and as you said, you couldn't find necessarily, the money, the backing at first. So, then you said, "where do we go, "where do we really now take this to the next level? And how, how did you get involved with Red Hat? >> I know Red Hat for quite some time through the Open Source community. I, myself, did development in the Chablis community. So, I know, Red Hat quite well for several years. So I know that the stack and the technologies they used evolved over time and now, with the announcement of these self-serve open-shift platforms , this was a, actually, or is a revolution for the technology side. And then, I saw last year, the innovational announcement and I- >> The light bulb went off. >> Right. And then I said, actually we tried for several months to find a partner that could support us in a very structured and modern way. And then, I said okay, let's try this. They are a big company, maybe we are too small for them but I emailed the innovational people and I got feedback and we matched for a discovery session. And the people were so nice, so engaging, so challenging, also, that in the end we came out with the plan for this innovational app. >> So, share with us a little bit about those early days, as you said, they were challenging you. What kind of questions were they asking? Because that is the whole point, is that they are trying to figure out what your minimum viable product could look like. So what kind o' questions were they asking you? How were they pushing you forward? >> I think you have to answer that. (laughing) >> Well, discovery session is there to really validate that the solution is sound that it has a market potential and that that you have a potential to solve this within a short time. In form of a minimum viable product, in order to show that this prototype really solves the problem and Red Hat has the technology then to scale this up to a really market solution. And that was a struggle to really validate, is this MVP able to do within a short time, A? And then, they challenge us as people, you know, are these guys really, can they do that? And can they market it in the end? Because, I mean, doing it for fun might be nice for some time but it's not really our goal. And that was the first challenges they made, then we did conceptualize the user journey from a medic perspective and also from a user perspective, patient perspective, and then we found out, okay, this might make sense to do it in an innovation lab matter, okay? And this was really a very sound approach. We had half a day for workshop, and it was actually perfect to map our ideas, to map the criteria they, you have for this approach, and then and we found together. Yeah? >> So, so, after the discovery process and persuading, I guess, the Red Hat people that you are the right people, that you are, in fact, the right team to bring this product to fruition. How did it work? What were you actually doing at your time at the lab? >> We went to Waterford, Ireland, for three days. Normally, the innovation labs, are, I think, three or four weeks, so that was really special for us. We went there, Andre, me, we had three developers of our own at the site and I think, about 12 people from Red Hat from, I think the best ones they really could get us. And we started early in the mornings, the whole day was scheduled, we had a, we built our case we wanted to do. And, you have to help me with the right words, >> Yeah, we did, essentially, what is called an event-storming; event-storming is what happens, what is really the app doing, step by step, in terms of a user experience, from the patient and the hospital or the doctors side. And then, this event-storming leads to a big board of what is happening as a process and you do that iteratively four or five times during one or two days in order to really engage all of the different levels of people from the developer to the business owner. As well as from the Red Hat side as as from our side of developers, so everybody's engaged in this process. And this is, I think, the innovative idea that you do not have a waterfall like, some people sit together and do it and then, you hand it over to the developers. You bring them together and you discuss it and make the case their own thing. And then they are fully engaged in realizing the product. And that was really the innovative part. >> When you told me that we are going to be on the innovation lab, I thought, "why me? What shall I be doing there?" There are all tech guys, I don't understand a word you are saying that's nothing really for me and, but I really saw it through quite fast 'cause it really makes sense that the business partners or the person who has the idea hat is there, 'cause you can really interfere very well and very fast and get to the point, what is needed. And it was really, it made sense to be there the whole time. >> It is very important that because you could see that sometime the ideas were flowing apart from the original business idea and that we were all people in the room together could ultimately control in every direction where this is heading and so, we had a really intensive two days in order to figure out how this event and system really should work as part of the innovation lab and then as a product for the MVP. >> Well that is so much of what we're talking about here at Red Hat. It's not just the tech, it's also how do people get into a room and get work done together and solve the problem that they're setting out to solve? And I think that you were talking about how you were in the room thinking, "why am I here?" But in fact, you are the, representing the user, from both the patient perspective, understanding what it's like to be in an emergency room and also the doctor perspective. So, how would you, sort of, bring it back and say, "hey, remember what we're doing here. "Remember the problem we set out to solve." >> Most of the time, I'll listen, but then, when I thought, "no that's not going "the direction I want it to be, or we want it to be" I just stood there, held my hand up and said, "No, we have to do it other way." Or, "I think that's not going to work," or "that's not the MVP." And they're really, they understood us very fast and at the beginning it was fascinating to see the Red Hat people and our own developers, everybody wanted to do it their style, 'cause they really are both very good. And it didn't take much time to combine them. And they really worked as a team. And everybody got one up step and it was nice to see. And I think it wasn't a problem to tell them what we think we should be, needed. And at the end, I think, we even got more than we discussed as an MVP. >> Andre: Mm, exaclty. >> After the three days. >> Okay, so so three days, you have the MVP. Where do we stand now with this easiER AG? >> We have an MVP after three days in Waterford. We figure out what to implement in sprints and then after, four, six weeks, we came out with the MVP that is essentially an app on a smart device for the doctor as well as the patient. And this is now working as we presented yesterday in the Keynote. >> Dorothee: Life. >> This is really, a valid product as it is and this can be applied now to healthcare trust or institutions so, if somebody wants to really use that they can do it because it's really working on an open-shift Red Hat innovative platform, right? And you can ultimately push the button and roll it out. I mean, this is really working, so. And, of course, what we have to do is user validation so, in terms of, is the use experience really perceivable independently for the users, this is something, user-testing we are doing right now in order to make it really perfectly user-friendly. And also, for the nurse side and the doctor side, that they can really use it easily, that's one of the most important things. >> And, do you have, are you, using at a hospital in Switzerland, countries around the world have different approaches to healthcare, different approaches to the emergency room, how, are you talking to other places about implementing this in other countries? In other parts o' the world? >> We are asking, we all have the same problems in healthcare. It doesn't matter where you life or where you work. I think it's all the same same problems and waiting times. >> And when you need emergency care, you need care. >> Yeah, you want to be taken care of and you want to be there really fast and you don't want to repeat every time the same sentences and the same problems to four or five people and, so, yeah, we're talking to health institutions at the moment, in Switzerland and Germany, but we hope to get there out soon in other countries as well. And I think this summit has opened many doors, and windows and we're looking forward to the future. >> Yeah, the process itself, that's the good thing, is totally independent of the context or country. It is the problem in any country or every country of the world so, we have a common approach to that and the only thing that needs to be changed it, maybe, is the hospital willing to accept that a certain automation takes place or not. And it can be fully automated or it could be done manually, right, and this is the decision of the healthcare institution or the trust who wants to implement that. So, we are flexible in that because of the technology of Red Hat because they provided the container that is really flexible in implementation. Right? And that's so great. >> Andre, Dorothee, thank you so much for your time, this is, has really been a lot o' fun learning about your company's journey. >> Together: Thank you so much for having us. >> I'm Rebecca Knight, stay tuned for more from the Red Hat Summit. (upbeat tone playing)

>> Voiceover: Live from Boston, Massachusettts, it's the Cube covering the Red Hat summit 2017. Brought to you by Red Hat. >> Welcome back to the Cube's coverage of the Red Hat Summit here in Boston, Massachusetts. I'm your host Rebecca Knight, along with my cohost Stu Miniman. We are joined by Radesh Balakrishnan. He is the general manager at openstack.com. Thank you so much for joining us, Radesh. >> My pleasure. >> I want to hear a status report. Where are we with openstack? What does it look like? Before the cameras were rolling you were saying we're alive and well, we're better than that, we're thriving. Lay it out for us. >> Yeah you could look at it from three perspectives. First is, how are we doing on number of production deployments. So just from the red hat lens itself, we have over 500 customers across the globe, spanning across multiple verticals, be it financial, telco, education, research and development, academia, etc. >> Stu: Put a point on that, production you said. >> Production customers. >> That doesn't include all the tests, you know that kind of stuff. >> That's right. >> Please. >> So that's a healthy spot to be in. The second lens to bring in from an openstack health perspective is how is the partner ecosystem shaping up? This is a space where there have been probably misreading of some of the moves that have been happening here. From our perspective, what has happened is a very healthy consolidation and standardization of the different place that needs to happen in the space. If you look at the openstack ecosystem that red hat has been able to pull through, we have certified solutions across compute, storage, networking, as well as ISP solutions that today customers can deploy with peace of mind. That's another indication of the fact that the ecosystem is maturing as well. A dimension along which that I'm personally excited about the ecosystem maturing is the fact that managed service providers are also taking on openstack and delivering solutions on top of it. For example, rackspace, IBM, Cisco metacloud, etc. All of them have built their manage service offering based on their openstack platform. >> So let's stay big picture here and look at the industry five years down the road, you're talking about it maturing, consolidation a natural part of that. What do you see, as I said again, big picture? >> I think the largest picture here is that hybrid cloud has become the norm. Five years ago, is cloud going to be there, real, is it secure, all of those questions have been answered. Multi cloud has become a real possibility. Hybrid cloud is going to be the normed implementation. The role openstack has is two fold in that context. One is, clearly as a private cloud implementation for enterprises wanting lack of vendor locking when it comes to implementing a cloud infrastructure. The second perspective is how can you stitch together multiple clouds using an API at the infrastructure layer that openstack can provide. That's the value that openstack is providing. >> Radesh, I want to dig into that a little bit because there was a vision of openstack, we're going to have, it will be the open cloud, we can build lots of clouds on that. You mentioned a few service providers. Of course rackspace was there since the early days. Great to see IBM, Cisco still doing some even though Cisco kind of killed the intercloud piece. But when I heard multi cloud talked about this week it is AWS, big partnership announcement with open shift. Google, Microsoft Azure, hybrid pieces of that and stitches those together, so I wonder, how does openstack in general and specifically the red hat solution stitch together openstack components with some of those other public cloud components? Because that seemed to be a gap in what openstack did itself. >> Yeah, so from our perspective, if you think it as a ratage, 80% of the focus is on private cloud. The remaining 20% is on think about security, privacy, compliance requirements dictating country specific public cloud requirements. Say Servpro in Brazil, or UK Cloud which provides services for Garmin Cloud, or Swisscom, a standing up Swiss cloud. That's kind of the mix and match of it. The context that I was worrying about was even when you have a private cloud, you can use the API that openstack provides to manipulate the resources that are on AWS, Google, Azure, etc. That's where I see the future shaping up. >> Radesh, we're going to be covering openstack next week, we'll see lots of red hatters there, I know. My take is that we need to reset expectations a little bit. I think red hat's been pretty consistent with what they're doing, but many people are unclear. We talked about certain players pulling back or partially or shifting what they're working on. Maybe I'd like to see your viewpoint on that as to a little bit of overblown expectations, certain players that might've been trying to push certain agendas vs. where red hat has seen things go and you want to see the community go forward. >> I think the first perspective to take here is that openstack is not the destination in itself. Openstack is an ingredient in the destination that customers want to get to. I talked a little bit about the open hybrid cloud being the end destination that customers want to get to. The usual layer cake of, there's the infrastructure layer, there's the application layer and there's the management layer. You want to get to an infrastructure layer that's open and openstack provides that one. Now, what has happened in the last two years is the focus around digital transformation has brought the shining light on the application layer square and center. In other words, developers are the kingmakers. In other words, the speed from thought to executing code is what is going to make or break a business. Which is why containers and derops, etc. is where the action is. But that doesn't preclude the need to have an adjoined infrastructure at the bottom layer. Rather than reinvent the need to do plumbing and compute and storage and networking level, you build on top of openstack so that you have open shift on top of openstack, like a Waru or a FICO doing it so that you get the fungible infrastructure at the bottom and then you get the derops implementation running on top of that. That's what we are seeing as the path to future. >> Yeah, I think that's a great point because it felt like that was a big piece missing at openstack is yeah, we've talked about containers there for a couple years but it's not about the application. I've heard lots of discussion about applications, application modernization, all the middle ware pieces. The core to many of the things that you guys are doing at red hat here and do you see, expect us to talk a lot about that at openstack summit next week? As things like Kubernetes and the container ecosystem matures, will that pull people away from some of the core activities? Because the base pieces of openstack are set in a lot of ways and sure, there's development work that needs to continue, but we've gotten some of the base pieces working well. People have been worried about some of the scope creep and the big tent and everything that falls out. How do you reconcile some of those pieces? >> Right, so I think it's a given that the world of containers and the world of openstack are coming together. Now, the confusion stems from the fact that some people are taking the view that containers are going to eliminate the need for openstack itself. The lens to bring to the picture is, how can the customer graduate from what they have to what they want to get to? If you come from that perspective, then first is to bring rationalization of existing resources by bringing in openstack and infrastructure layer. Bring in culture change through derops, through open shift, and then when it comes to implementing the full solution, you run open shift on top of openstack. That's the ideal that we get to see. Now, is every customer going to go through these steps? Maybe not, but the majority of the customer if you look at the customers who are embarking on transmuneration over the next three to five years, they're going to be in that bucket is my view. >> Can we go back to what you were saying about the beginning, it begins with the infrastructure, then the culture shift. Unpack that a little bit for us. What do you mean by that and what are you saying in terms of how that will lead to the transformation that companies want to get to? >> Right, so all I'm saying is technology is the easy part. It's down to are we fundamentally rewiring the way in which we are thinking about applications? The way in which we are writing the applications, the way in which we are delivering the applications to an entirely potentially new set of customers and partners? >> Last piece I want to ask you about is the openstack community. Some shifts as to who's contributing, talk to us a little bit about red hat's contribution, the really health of the various projects. Where you see good stuff coming out and anything as you look forward to next week without giving away what announcements you have. What should the community be excited about going into the summit? >> The openstack summits are always exciting because it's twice a year, family reunion for the whole community to come together. As a community, we made tremendous journey in identifying new use cases, such as NFE, delivering against that, etc. The other dimension is that, back to the point about rationalization etc., now there is clarity around the role of openstack itself in an infrastructure. The journey ahead is to make sure that containers and openstack can come together in a seamless manner. Secondly, in the hybrid cloud adoption model, openstack engineering will provide the API stability across the multi cloud infrastructure. Those are the areas I think all the discussions are going to be centered around next week. >> Great, Radesh thank you so much for your time. It's always a pleasure to sit down with you. >> Thank you very much. >> I'm Rebecca Knight for Stu Miniman, we'll back with one last session from the Red Hat Summit 2017. (upbeat music)

>> Voiceover: Live from Boston, Massachusetts, it's the Cube covering Red Hat Summit 2017. Brought to you by Red Hat. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman and welcome back to the three days of live coverage here at Red Hat Summit 2017. The sixth key note of the week just wrapped up. Everybody's streamin' out. We've got a couple more segments. Happy to welcome back to the program a couple gentlemen we had on actually the Open Stack Summit. John Allessio, who'd the vice president of - And Nick Hopman, who's the senior director of Emerging Technology Practices, both with Red Hat. Gentlemen, great to see you again. >> Great to see you again Stu, good afternoon. >> Yeah, so a year ago you guys launched this idea of the Open Innovation Labs. We're opening these labs this year. You've got some customers. We actually had Optum on earlier in the week. We're going to have the easiER AG guys on, I should say - I was corrected earlier this week. I shouldn't say guys, actually I think it's two doctors, a man and a woman that are on. >> Andre and Dorothy. Andre and Dorothy - so really amazing customer testimonials for working through. So John, why don't you start with, you know, give us the update on the innovation lab program. Open and innovation get, you know, discussed a lot. Give us the real meat of what happens. >> So, just maybe a quick recap. >> Yeah. >> So Stu, we had about oh a year and a half ago or so, our strategic advisory board tell us, Red Hat, we really are looking for you to help show us the way in how to develop software, but also kind of help us leverage this culture that Red Hat has and developing software the Red Hat way. And so we worked with about a dozen clients across the globe, got a lot of great feedback on what they were looking for. We created an offering and then we launched it, as you said in Austin at Open Stack Summit. And now we've done many engagements in Europe and in North America across multiple different industries. We had here at the Summit this week actually two clients talk on the main stage, both Optum and easiER AG. And both of them have been through innovation lab engagements. Very different industries, very different clients, but what it has proven in both cases is it's really been a great way and a great catalyst to kind of spark innovation, whether it's within an existing IT infrastructure or building out some capability in particular customer environments, like we did with Optum, or kind of taking some ideas. And I'll let Dorothy and Andre tell their story when they come on and work with you. I don't want to take their thunder. But a great way to show you how we can work with a start up and really help them kind of take their vision and make it reality in an application. >> Yeah, Nick, you know, we've done so many interviews about the various pieces, lots of interesting business. It reminds me of that kind of pipelining that you talk about. One of the announcements this week was Open Shift IO, which it helps with kind of the application modernization. Can you maybe help us, you know, put together how the products that Red Hat does and what you're doing in the Open Innovation Labs, how do those go together and mesh and new stuff come in? >> It's actually kind of at the core of what we do anyway. So, we are building on top of the foundation, the technologies at Red Hat's core platform. But in a residency with Open Innovation Labs we are tying in other technologies, other things outside of the Stack. But with like Open Shift IO, what we've created was what we called the push button infrastructure. How are we showing with the process and everything to innovate on top of the Red Hat technology? How do we accelerate that journey? And so we created what was called the push button infrastructure to show that foundational acceleration, and Open Shift IO is actually now kind of part of that core. And adding in other components, other technologies that Red Hat has, whether it's our ISV partners, things in Open Shift commons, all those things to accelerate the application development experience. And so I think with Open Shift IO and as Red Hat continues to evolve in the development kind of tooling landscape, you're going to see how we are helping our customers do cloud data of application development more so than ever before. >> Yep, and maybe to add to that too, Nick, we were talking to a client this morning about some of their challenges and their priorities for this current physical year, And that particular client was talking about Jenkins and a number of non-Red Hat technologies as well because at the end of the day, our customers have Red Hat products, have non-Red Hat products. I think the great thing that maybe you can mention is when you look at that push button infrastructure that we've built, it's not really a Red Hat thing, although it clearly is tied to the Red Hat technology. But it's even bigger than that. And I think that would be important for the team to understand. >> Yeah so we actually have online is what we call our text stack, and it allows the customer to kind of select the current technologies that we've currently got integrated into our push button infrastructure, and it's always evolving. So I think what we're trying to bring to the table from a technology perspective is our more prescriptive approach. But it's always changing, always evolving. So if customers are wanting to use x or y technology, we're able to integrate with that. But even more so, if you take that technology to the foundation, put a couple of droplets of the Red Hat DNA and the culture is really where that innovation and that inspiration kind of where it's - it's culminating on top of it. So they're building out the applications, like the easiER AG examples. >> John: Yeah, excellent. >> It's great, I always love - By the time we get to the end here, oh I see some of the common threads. You know, for example, Ansible's acquired a year and a half ago, boy we've seen Ansible you know weave it's way into a lot of products. >> Nick: Sure. >> Was talking to Ashush just a sort while ago. And the Open Stack commons, which reflected what you were just talking about is customers are coming, they're sharing their stories. And it's not all Red Hat pieces. One thing I think, I go to a lot of technology shows, and it's usually, "Oh, well we want to talk about solutions." But by these pieces, and Red Hat at it's core it's all open source, and therefore there's always going to be other pieces that tie in. How do you extend as to how much of this is driven by the Red Hat business versus you know the problems of the customer? I'm sure those mesh together pretty well, but maybe some learning you've had over the last year that you could share on that. >> Sure. I think one of the great starting points Stu is what we try and do in every case is start with what we call is a discovery session. So it's one of our consultants, or one of our solution architects really going into the client and having a discussion around what is the business problem we're trying to solve, or what is the business opportunity we're trying to capitalize upon. And from there, you know we have a half day to a day kind of discussion around what these priorities are, and then we come back to them with the deliverable that says okay, here's how we could solve that problem. Now there will be areas that we of course think we have Red Hat technology that absolutely is a perfect fit. We're going to put it in and make that as a recommendation. But there's going to be other technologies that we're also going to recommend as well. And I think that's what we've learned in these Innovation Lab engagements. Because often it's a discussion with IT of course, but also a discussion with line of business. And sometimes what happens in these discovery sessions is sometimes it's the line of business and IT perhaps connecting for the first time on this particular topic. And so we'll come back with that approach and it'll be an approach that's tailored to that customer environment. >> One thing kind of pivots a little bit from the topic of the technology, but I mean the culture and how we're doing this. I mean we are working with ISV's and things of how they could come through the residency to get things spun up into Open Shift commons and get their technology in the Stack or integrated with Red Hat's technical solutions. But on the other hand, you know really when they come in and they work with us, they're driving forward with looking at you know changes of their culture. They're trying to do digital transformation. They're trying to do these different types of things, but working with that cross-functional team. They're coming up with, oh wow, we were solving the problems the wrong way. And that's kind of just the point of the discovery session, figuring out what those business challenges are is really kind of what we're bubbling up with that process. >> Yeah, I'm curious. When I think to just open innovation, even outside of the technology world, sometimes we can learn a lot from people that aren't doing the same kind of things that we've been doing. I know you've got a couple of case studies here, customers sharing their stories, but how do we allow the community to learn more? When they get engaged in the innovation lab are customers sharing a little bit more? We know certain industries are more open to sharing than others, but what are they willing to share? What don't they share? How do you balance that kind of security if you will of their own IP as separate from the processes that they're doing? >> John: Sure. >> It's actually kind of interesting, we had a story this week, we have an engagement going on in our London space, which will be launching in a week and a half. But they're going on right now. And there was a customer that was kind of coming through for a regular executive briefing if you will. And we walked him through the space. And they saw the teams working in there and they were before in the sales kind of meaning, they were a little bit close-minded and close-sourced if you will. Trying to not want to share some of their core nuggets of their IP if you will. And once they saw kind of the collaborative landscape, and this is not even technology based, but just the culture of an open conversation. You know I hate to overuse - you know the sticky notes everywhere, the dev ops. I mean they were really doing a conversation with the customer that was engaging. And all of a sudden the customer that was there on the sales conversation goes, "I want to do this session, I want to go through this discovery session with you guys." And so I think customers are trying to do that. And the other thing is, in our spaces and in our locations, like Boston, we are actually having two team environments, and we've designed it to try and create collisions. So they're basically on two sides, but there's also a common area in the middle where we're trying to create those collisions to inspire that open conversation with our clients as well. Some may be comfortable with it, some might not be as comfortable with it, but we're going to challenge them. >> Nick, I love that term collisions. There's a small conference I go to in Providence. Haven't made it every year, but a few times. It's an innovation conference. And they call it the random collision of unusual suspects. It's the things we can learn from the people we don't know at all. Unfortunately, we're too much. You know, we know the people we know. We know a lot of the same information that we know. If somebody outside of the like three degrees of separation that you might find, that next really amazing thing that will help us move to the next piece, it brings me to my next point. You mentioned London and Boston, how do you decide where you're building your next centers, what's driving that kind of piece of it? And, you know, bring us up to speed as the two new locations, one of which if we had a good arm we might be able to throw a baseball and hit. >> Excellent, so let me just start by first of all saying, you know part of what we're doing here is it's this experiential residency is what it is. And that residency can happen at a client location, at a Red Hat location, or even a pop-up you know kind of third party location. And quite frankly, over the course of the last year, we've done all three of those scenarios. So all three of them are valid. As far as it relates to a Red Hat facility, what we try and do is find a location if we can that's either co-located with a large percentage of Red Hat clients, and or maybe Red Hat engineering. Because oftentimes we'll want to bring some of the engineers into these sessions. So, Mountain View, where we have a center today was a natural 'cause we have some engineering capability out on the west coast. And Boston is of course very natural as well because we have a very large engineering presence here in Boston. In fact, I'll let you talk a little bit about the Boston center 'cause that's going to be our next one that opens here in just a few weeks. So maybe Nick, talk a bit about you know what we're doing in the Boston center, which will be, if you will, our world wide hub for Red Hat innovation. It's not just going to be the Boston center, it's also going to be our world wide hub. >> No pun intended that it's in the hub that is Boston. >> You got it, you got it! >> Excellent. >> So you know, what are we doing in the innovation center, and the engineering center, and the customer briefing center all co-located in Boston. >> Yeah so it's actually going back to the collisions. We've even try and create collisions in our own organization. So it's actually an eight-shaped building. We've got four floors, or two floors on each side. So kind of effectively four floors. Engineering on one side on two floors, and an EBC on a floor above the Open Innovation Labs, and the Open Innovation Labs on the third floor if you will. And there's actually floor cut-outs, so people you know if they're coming in from an executive briefing, they can see down, see what's going on there. And then engineering on the other side. And the point there is that open culture just even within our organization, working with the engineers across the board, getting them over into our space, working with us to solving the problems. And showing, you know, I think the key point that I would hit on there is really trying to inspire customers what it's like to work in a community. So community powered innovation. All those types of things. And so the space is trying to do that. The collisions, the openness obviously, flexibility, but also what we're trying to do is create a platform or a catalyst of innovation. And whether or not it's in the location or pop-up location, we're trying to show the customer some of these principals that we're seeing that's effectively allowing Red Hat to drive the innovation, and how they can take that back into their own. So, you know the locations are great for driving a conversation from a sales perspective, and just overall showcasing it. But the reality is we've got this concept to innovate anywhere. We want to be able to take our technology, our open culture, everything you would want to use and go be able to take that back into your organization. 'Cause our immersive experience is only you know, it's kind of camp for coders or camp for the techies if you will. So you know that's working well, but that's not long term. Long term we have to show them how they can drive it forward, you know with themselves. >> Where do I sign up for the summer program? (all laugh) >> It's coming this summer. >> So Boston will launch in the end of June. >> End of June, early July. >> And the June timeframe we had, I don't know how many dozens of clients, and partners, and Red Hatters go through in hard hat tours this week, here at the Summit. And then in two weeks, we'll open in downtown or really in the heart of London. >> Stu: Alright, yeah, quick flat flight across the pond to get to London. Anything special about that location? >> I think just overall the locations all have a little bit of uniqueness to them. I they're definitely - we did design them to inspire innovation, thinking outside the box. So I think you know, if you go visit one of our locations you might a couple kind of hidden rooms if you will. Some other unique things. But overall, they are just hubs in general for the regions. Hubs of technology and innovation. And so from the go forward perspective I mean we are trying to say, you know, Red Hat is doing things different, thinking different. And these are kind of a way to show it. So trying to find that urban location that is a center point for people to be able to travel in and be able to experience that is really kind of the core. >> So London will open in two weeks, and then we're already working on blueprints for Singapore. >> Singapore, yeah. >> For our Asia hub, and had some great conversations with our leader for Latin America about some very initial plans for Latin America as well. So you know, we'll have great presence across the globe. We'll be able to bring this capability to customer sites. We've already done that. We'll be able to do pop ups. 'Cause even in some cases customers are saying you know we don't want to travel, but we want to get out of our home environment so we can really focus on this and have that immersive experience, and that intimate experience. So we'll do the pop ups as well. >> Driving change, we are seeing that that's the best way. Especially with this kind of, you know, the residency. It is a time box. So if we get them out of their day to day, some of the things, you know, sometimes are the things that are holding them out. Get them in the pop up location, get them outside of their space. All of a sudden their eyes open up. And we had a large retailer, international retailer that we did a project with on the west coast, and getting them out of their space got them coming back. The actual quotes from their executives and the key stakeholders were like they came back fired up. >> Stu: Yeah. >> And they came back motivated to try to make change without our organization. So it's disruption on every level. >> Yeah, you can't underestimate the motivation and the spirit that people come out of these engagements with. It's like a renewed sense of, "I can do this." And we saw that exactly with this retail engagement of really already working on preparing for Black Friday, and putting some great plans in place and really building that out for them. >> John Allessio, Nick Hopman; we always love digging in about the innovation. Absolutely something that excites most people of our industry. That doesn't? Maybe you're in the wrong industry. >> Exactly. >> We've got a couple more interviews. Stay tuned with us. I'm Stu Miniman, you're watching the Cube. (light music)

>> Announcer: Live from Boston Massachusets, it's the Cube. Covering Red Hat Summit 2017, brought to you by Red Hat. >> Welcome back to the Cube's live coverage of Red Hat Summit 2017. I'm Stu Miniman, happy to have two gentlemen from the Middleware group. I have Mark Little who's the vice president of engineering and I have Mike Piech who's the vice president and general manager of the Middleware. Both of you from Red Hat, thank you so much for joining us. >> Mike: Thanks for having us. >> Alright, Mike, let's start with you just before we get into some of the news and everything. Tell us a little bit about your role, how long have you been a Red Hat. >> Yeah, I've been at Red Hat little over four years now. I run the Middleware business unit which comprises product management, product marketing, couple of other ancillary product related functions. We drive a lot of the Middleware strategies, certainly in conjunction with Mark and the engineering team. We also drive a lot of the merger and acquisition activities to sort of extend and build out the business. >> Alright, and Mark, a quick intro, maybe give us a little scope of where your engineering team sits across the globe and what products they're working on. >> So I've been with Red Hat since 2006. Came in with the Jbox Acquisition. I'm also responsible for our mobile and APR management efforts as well as Middleware. We've got an incredibly broad, rich Middleware portfolio and part of what comes with that is a very expensive engineering team which is in I think every single time zone apart from Antarctica. >> Excellent. Mike, let's unpack a little bit. Tell us about the news this week, what's new at Red Hat Summit. >> Probably the biggest news on the Middleware front is our announcement of open shift application runtimes. And really what that is is you can think of it as the next generation of runtimes and really, a next generation embodiment of the functionality that we've all known and loved as the application server. Right, so one of the core elements of the J boss Middleware portfolio from the get-go, the original acquisition of the J Boss company has been the application server, J Boss EAP. Enterprise application platform in Red Hat nomenclature. With open shift application runtimes, we take a lot of that functionality, a lot of that really foundational capability that has been sort of packaged into that entity, the application server and reimagined it, renabled it for the world of microservices, and that's what open shift application runtimes are all about. >> Alright. Mark, maybe you can break this down a little bit for us. I know in other conversations we said "Oh, I hear microservices", sometimes we conflate that with containers so some of the interfaces and challenges for building what you're doing? >> So microservices could be deployed into containers. In fact, you could have containers that have multiple microservices with them. There's a lot of challenges with microservices and as Mike's hinted at, some of those challenges have actually come because we've essentially had to re-architect some of our product lines to be more microservice-y, in a way. Sit well in containers, work well with open shift, so it's important that we don't just think about containers, we actually need to think about containers and orchestration, containers, hence Kubernetes, Which is why we've focused on open shift. And we've spent a lot of time over the last few years re-architecting and broadening our abilities into microservices area and everything we do, particularly in the raw, which is Red Hat open shift application runtimes acronym, is targeted at open shift and we've made a lot of efforts to make our stuff open shift native. >> Yeah, and I'm curious to get both of your opinions. We've talked for years about some of the Cloud Native microservices applications. Feels like there's a little bit more of a spectrum now. What we used to call almost lift and shift, kind of the re-platforming it and then maybe they start breaking up some of the pieces. Start componentizing them. Sounds like containers helps with some of them. What are you hearing from customers? How does that mature the solution set that you're working on? >> Sure. First of all, almost all of our customers are at least talking about microservices. They are all at different phases of their respective trajectories in sort of going down the microservices path. Almost no one would say "Oh, I would never do a microservice." I think most customers are realistic about "Hey, it's not a one size fits all proposition." The microservices approach is really appropriate for certain use cases, certain kinds of workloads, certain kinds of application domains. And in other domains, a less microservices-ish approach might still make sense. In a way, there's not like this hard threshold between what is a microservice and what is a macroservice or something bigger than a microservice. There really is a spectrum of size of modules. The whole idea of microservice is just taking the idea of modularity to another level. Like giving you a finer granularity to work with, but that doesn't necessarily mean that everything should be blown into its minutest possible bits. >> And I would kind of add to that. Some of our competitors, some of the people in the field of microservices often tend to approach this from a completely green field environment where the assumption is that you've got nothing that you need to lift and shift or nothing that you have to bring with you to this new world and that's simply not the case. Nobody has a true green field moment. Everybody's kind of brown field, slightly muddy fields. And I think that's what we've tried to address with what we announced this weekend at the summit. But also, another thing that we're focusing on is not just looking at how we evolve our software, but also how we evolve the people that are developing these things. It's no good us saying to customers, partners, communities "Everything you knew at this point you now have to unlearn and tomorrow morning, when you come to work, you have to have a completely new skillset." People have invested a lot of time and money into themselves, their employees, and they need to be able to take that skillset and evolve it as well. >> Yeah, you've spent a lot of time in the last few years talking about really modernization of what's happening. I've been saying for the last couple of years "The application tends to be the long pole in the tent." So are things starting to move a little faster? What's exciting you and what things have we knocked down and what things do we still need to mature a little bit on? >> Yeah, I would say it is moving noticeably faster. In the last, say, six to 12 months, we've really felt a rapid increase. A year ago, if we had this interview, we certainly would have talked about microservices but there would be a much smaller number of customers who were actively pursuing them. I think part of what happens is once you get some early successes, once you get a few examples out there of "How do you do it? What actually works?" That will start to snowball and bring on other customers who then gain some confidence from having seen it done. To answer the other part of your question, what still remains to be done, I think with our... One of the things that has, I think, continued to... If not be an actual challenge, at least be a perceived challenge in the minds of would-be microservices architects is "How do I manage all this stuff? How do I make dealing with not tens or hundreds but thousands or tens of thousands of these very minutely sized workloads? How do I orchestrate them, how do I scale them, how do I manage them, et cetera?" And that's one of the very challenges that our open shift application runtimes offering that we announced this week is that we meant to address. By putting those runtimes in an open shift native, Kubernetes native environment and automating a lot of that orchestration, taking a lot of that manual labor of dealing with all those pieces off the table, this would make it a lot easier for developers to develop with microservices. >> Mark, I can only imagine how much has changed in the last decade. Containers, the rapid acceleration there. I want to ask you a little bit forward looking, though. What about things like serverless, functions as a service, what's Red Hat's viewpoint on that? How fast do you see that coming? How does that play into your environment? >> So we see it in a way as a natural evolution of microservices. You know, a microservice should be something that does one thing well in a single unit of deployment. A serverless or function is one unit of deployment. So you can see it as another way of doing microservices and we're definitely full in on that. We've been working on projects in Kubernetes and open shift efforts called Function which is our serverless effort and we'll be integrating that with RAW. We think it's a good thing in general. It's obviously not going to be right for everybody. There are some issues with serverless. You may not find it useful for your application. >> Alright, Mike, I want to give you the final word. Speak to customer conversations you're having. What's exciting them in the Middleware space? >> Yeah, I've been really excited in the last 48 hours since the announcement came out. The reaction has been really, really good. I've talked to a number of our large financial services customers, both from here in the U.S. as well as in Europe. I've talked to some other customers in industries outside of financial services. They are unanimous in giving us kudos that we're on the right path, that this is what they wanted and needed to hear. That we are being very forward looking with our Middleware and while we're certainly not abandoning or otherwise letting go of a number of very important workload capabilities that we need to continue supporting in many traditional environments that we really are at the same time taking all of our deep expertise in Middleware and application development platforms and providing the enterprise grade, enterprise trusted, tested next generation runtime foundations for microservices and other emerging styles of development such as Function and serverless. >> Mike Piech, Mark Little, really appreciate the updates on where you are, little bit of visibility towards the future. We'll be turning it over to the Key Note and then back with the last bit of our coverage here, three day coverage of the Cube at Red Hat Summit. I'm Stu Miniman.

>> Man: Live, from Boston, Massachusetts, it's The Cube, covering Red Hat Summit 2017, brought to you by Red Hat. >> Welcome back to The Cube's coverage of the Red Hat Summit, here in Boston, Massachusetts. I'm you're host Rebecca Knight along with my co-host Stu Miniman. We're joined by Ashesh Badani. He is the Vice President and General Manager of OpenShift here at Red Hat. Thanks so much, Ashesh. >> Thanks for having me on yet again. >> Yes, you are a Cube veteran, so welcome back. We're always happy to talk to you. You're also an OpenShift veteran. You've been there five years, and before the cameras are rolling you were talking about how we really are at a tipping point here with OpenShift, and we're seeing a widespread adoption and embrace of containers. Can you share the context with us. >> Sure, so I think we've spent a fair amount of time in this market talking about how important containers are, the value of containers, DevOps, microservices. I think at this Red Hat Summit, we've spent a fair amount of time trying to ensure that people understand one containers are real, in terms of, you know, adoption level that we're seeing. They're being run in production and at scale. And across a variety of industries, right. So, just at this summit we've had over 30 customers from across the world, across industries like financial services, government, transportation, tech, telco, a variety of different industries talking about how they've been deploying and using containers. At our keynotes we had Macquarie Bank from Australia, Barclay's Bank from the U.K. We had United Health slash OPTUM. All talking about, you know, mission critical applications, how their developers running applications, both new applications, right, microservice-style applications, but also existing legacy applications on the OpenShift platform. >> Ashesh, I've been watching this for a few years, we've talked to you many times, we talked about containers. Maybe I'm oversimplifying it but let me know. It feels like OpenShift is your delivery mechanism to take some things that might be hard if I tried to do them myself and made it a lot simpler. Kind of give like Red Hat did for Linux, I have containers, I have Kubernetes, I have OpenStack, and all three of those I didn't hear a ton at the show, I heard a lot about OpenShift and the OpenShift family because underneath OpenShift are those pieces. Am I gettin' it right, or there's more nuance you need-- >> Great observation, great observation, yeah, and we're seeing that from our customers, too. So, when they're making strategic choice, they're talking about, you know, how can I find the container platform to run at scale. When they make their choice, all they're thinking about well what's the existing, you know, development tools I've got. Can it integrate with the ones that I have in place. What's the underlying infrastructure they can run on. OpenStack of course is a great one, right. We have many customers, Santander, BBVA Bank are just two examples of those, but then also, can I run the OpenShift structure in a hybrid cloud, or I guess what we're calling a multi-cloud world now. Amazon, Google, Asher, and so on. But actually interestingly enough we made some announcements with Amazon as well at the show with regard to making sure some AWS service are able to be integrated into the OpenShare platform. So, we find customers today finding a lot of value in the flexibility of the deployment platforms they have in place, integration with various developer tools. I think my colleague Harry Mower was on earlier talking about OpenShift.io, again, you know, super interesting, super exciting now it's been from our perspective with regard to giving developers more choice. And in addition to that, you know, the other parts of the portfolio, right, going to your point, earlier. We're trying to attach that increasingly as options for customers around OpenShift. Storage is a great example. So we announced some work we've doing with regard to container storage with our classified system for OpenShift. >> So you're talking about simplification and that does seem to be a real theme here. Once you've solved that problem, what's next, what are some of the other customer issues that you need to resolve and help them overcome and make their lives easier? >> Yeah, so, the rate of change in technology, as you well know, you've been following this now for a while is just dramatic, right. I think it's probably faster than we've ever seen in a long, long time. I was having a conversation with a large franchise customer with regard to, you know, just as we feel like, you know, we're getting people to adopt Hadoop, everyone seems to have moved on to Spark. And now we're on Spark and people are talking about, oh, maybe Flink is next. Now that we get to Flink, now they're saying AI and ML is next. It's just like, well, where does this stop, right. So I don't think it stops. The question is, you know, at what point of time do you sort of jump in. Embrace the change, right, that's sort of what Devops all about right, continuous change, you know, embrace it, be able to evolve with it, fail fast, pick yourself up, and then have the organization be in this sort of continuous learning, this kaizen environment. >> Yeah, Ashesh, from day one of the keynote talked about the platforms and you know Red Hat Enterprise Linux was kind of the first big platform that can live a lot of environments. Seems OpenShift is a second platform, and the scope of it seems to be growing. We talked to Harry about the OpenShift.io. He alluded to the fact that we might see expansion into the family there. What is, you said that innovation, and you know change keeps growing. What's the boundaries of what OpenShift's going to cover. Where do you see it today and where's the vision go moving forward? >> Yeah, so (laughs) great question, a double-edged sword right. Because on the one hand of course we want to make sure OpenShift is a foundation for doing a lot of stuff. But then there's also the Linux philosophy. Do one thing, do it well, right. And so there's always this temptation with regard to keeping on wanting to take new things on, right, I mean for a long time people have said, hey, why aren't we in the database business? You know, why aren't you doing more? Well the question is, you know, how many things can we do well? Because anything we commit to, as you well know, Red Hat will invest significant amount of engineering effort upstream in the community to help drive it forward, right. We've done that on Linux container front. We're doing that in Kubernetes. Obviously we do that with RHEL, we've done that Jboss technologies. So, we're very, very cognizant of making sure that we provide an environment and basically an ecosystem around us that can grow and be able to attach the momentum we have in place. As a result of that we announced the container health index at this conference, right. Mostly because, you know, there's just no way for one company to provide all the services that are possible, right. So to be able to grade applications that come in, be able to sort of give customers confidence that, you know, these can be certified and work in our environment, and then be able to kind of expand out that ecosystem is going to be really important going forward. >> Yeah, Ashesh that's an interesting one, the container health index. I'm going to play with the term there. What's the health of the container industry there. We at The Cube at DockerCon a couple weeks ago had a couple of Red Hatters on the program. There was kind of a reshuffling, you know. The Moby project, open source, we've got Docker CE, Docker EE, Docker actually referenced, you know, Fedora and CentOS and RHEL as you know, something that they did similar to but, what's your take on the announcements there? >> Sure, sure, I'll probably butcher this quote tremendously, but it was Mark Twain or someone said, "The rumors of my whatever are greatly exaggerated," so. You know, there's always, you know, some amount of change that sort of happens, especially with new technology, and you've got so many players sort of jumping in, right. I mean of course there's Docker Inc. There's Red Hat but there's, you know, Google and IBM and Microsoft and Amazon, and there's a lot of companies, right, that all look at this as a way of advancing the number of workloads that come onto their platforms. You know, we've seen some of the challenges, if you will, that Docker Inc. has been facing as well as the great work it's been doing to help drive the community forward, right. Those are both interesting things. And they've got a business to run. We've announced, we've seen the changes announced with regard to some of the renaming and Moby, and I think there's still a lot more detail that need to be fleshed out. And so I, we're going to wait for the dust to settle. I think we want to make sure our customers are confident. We've had this conversation with many customers that whatever direction that, you know, we go in, we will continue supporting that technology. We will stand behind it. We will make sure we're putting upstream engineers to help drive the community that will provide the greatest value for customers. >> Ashesh, you're one of the judges for the Innovation Awards here. Can you tell us a little bit more about the secret sauce that you're looking for. First of all, how you choose these winners, and what it is you're looking for. >> Yeah, so I'm really proud of the work I do to help support the judging of the Innovation Awards. You know, I think it's a fantastic thing we do to recognize, I was telling Stu earlier, you know we could probably have done a dozen more awards, right, the entries that are coming in are just fantastic. We try to change up the categories a little bit every year to kind of match with the changes in industry, like for example, you know, DevOps, Macquarie Bank was a great example of enterprise transformation. You know, they had this great line in their keynote right, where their ambition I think really impressed a lot of the judges with regard to, hey our competition is not necessarily the other financial service companies, it's the last app you opened. That's a remarkable thing, right. Especially for an existing traditional financial services company, you see. So, I think what we look for is scope, ambition, and vision, but also how you're executing against it, and what demonstrable results do you have for that. And so, you probably saw that, as, you know, we talked about all the various innovation awards we gave, right, whether it's Macquarie Bank or, you know, British Columbia Empower Individuals, right, so the whole notion of celebrating the impact of individual, and create an exchange for them to engage with the wider civic body. That's really important for us. >> Ashesh, one of the innovation award-winners OPTUM we talked to, they're an OpenShift customer. They're really excited with the AWS announcement. We've been chewing on it, talking to a lot of people. We think it's the most significant news coming out of the show. As you said, there's certain details that need to bake out when we look at some of these things. By the time we get to AWS Reinvent we'll probably understand a little bit some of the pricing and, you know, some of the other pieces, and it'll be there, but, you know, bring us from your viewpoint, from an OpenShift standpoint what this means to kind of an extension of the product line and your customers. >> Yeah, so, we've got, at least at this show you had over 30 customers presenting about their use of OpenShift. And we typically find them deploying OpenShift in a variety of different environments including AWS. So for example Swiss Rail, right, obviously out of Switzerland, is taking advantage of, you know, running it in their own data center, taking advantage of AWS as well. When they're doing that they want to make sure that they can consume services from Amazon. Just as if they were running it on Amazon, right. They like the container platform that OpenShift provides, and they like the abstraction level that it puts in place. Of course they have different choices, right. They can choose to run it on OpenStack, they can choose to run OpenShift in some other public cloud provider, yet there are many services that Amazon's releasing that are extremely interesting and value that they provide to their customers. By being able to have relationship with Amazon, and have an almost native experience of those services with regard to OpenShift, regardless of the underlying infrastructure OpenShift runs, it is a very powerful value proposition, definitely for our customers. It's a great one for Amazon because it allows for their services to be used across a multitude of environments. And we feel good about that because we're creating value for our customers, and of course not precluding them from using other services as well. >> I'm wondering if you could shed a little light on the financials, and how you think about things. I mean, you made this great point about the banks saying our competition is the last app you opened. How do you think, with OpenShift, which is free, how do you view your competition, and how do you think about it in terms of the way companies are making their decisions about where they're putting their money in IT investments. >> Right, so OpenShift isn't free, so I'll just make sure-- (all laugh) >> OpenShift.io >> OpenShift.io, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, yes. >> So, consider OpenShift.io as a great gateway into the OpenShift experience, right. It's a cloud-based web environment allows you to develop in browsers, allows you some collaboration with other developers. There's actually a really cool part of the tech, I don't know if Harry talked about right, which is, we almost have, almost machine-learning aspect part of it, you know, that's in play with regard to, you know, if this is the code you're using, here are what other users are doing with it, making recommendations, and so on, so it's a really modern integrated, you know, development environment that we're sort of introducing. That of course doesn't mean that customers can't use existing ones that they have in place. So this is just giving customers more choice. By doing that, we're basically expanding the span of options the customers have. We introduced something called OpenShift Application Runtimes also at this conference, which is supporting existing Java languages or tools or frameworks, right, whether it's Jboss, EAP, Vortex, WildFly, Spring Boot, but also newer ones like No-JavaScript, right, so again, in the spirit of, let's give you choices, let's have you sort of use what you most want to use, and then from our perspective, right, you know, we will create value when it's been deployed at scale. >> Ashesh, before the event at the beginning of it you guys run something called OpenShift Commons. There's some deep education and a lot of it very interactive. I'm curious if there's anything that's kind of surprised you or interesting nuggets that you got from the users. Either stuff that they were further ahead or further behind, or just something that's grabbin' their attention that you could share with our users. >> Well, what I've been really happy to see with the OpenShift Commons is, well, this is a couple things, right. One is we try our best to make it literally a community event, right, so we call it OpenShift Commons but it is a community event. So in the past and even now, we have providers of technologies, even though they might compete with Red Hat and OpenShift available to talk to. Customers, users of our technology, right, so we want it to be an open, welcoming environment for various providers. Second, we're seeing more and more customers wanting to come out and share their experiences, right. So at this OpenShift Commons, I think we had maybe over 10 customers present on, you know, how they were using OpenShift, and sharing with other customers. Number three, this really attracts other customers. I just had a large financial services institution come and say, you know, we attended OpenShift Commons for the first time. This is a fantastic community. How can we become a part of this? You know, get us involved. There's no cost to join, right, it's free and open, and now our numbers are pretty significant. And then when that's in place, right, the ecosystem forms around it. Now, so we have several different ISVs, global system integrators who are all sort of, you know, coalescing, to provide additional services. >> Ashesh, thanks so much for your time, we appreciate it. It's always a pleasure to have you on the program. >> Ashesh: Thanks again, see you all next time. >> I'm Rebecca Knight for Stu Miniman. There'll be more from the Red Hat Summit after this. (relaxed digital beats)

>> Host: Live from Boston, Massachusetts it's The Cube, covering Red Hat Summit 2017 brought to you by Red Hat. >> Welcome back to The Cube's coverage of the Red Hat Summit here in Boston, Massachusetts. I'm your host Rebecca Knight along with my co-host, Stu Miniman. We are joined by Harry Mower. He is the senior director Programs and Tools here at Red Hat. Thanks so much for joining us. >> Thanks for having me. >> So, I want to start out by talking about the product launch that you are announcing this week, a new set of developer tools, Open Shift IO. What does it do? What does it not do? Break it down. >> Sure absolutely, so on the first day of the summit we announced probably one of the largest developer tools we've had in a long time, and it's a brand new product. It's a hosted online environment for building cloud services, whether you choose to do that as a microservice or a monolith or whatever architectural pattern you choose. We provide end to end tools for development teams to build them and host them on open shift online. When I say end to end, what that means is it comes with everything development teams need to plan, code, analyze, and deploy their applications. If this were the '90's, we would have called it a new ALM platform, but now it's dev-ops, right? It's our new approach to dev-ops. It completes the open shift experience, and makes it easier for development teams and developers to build those applications and host them on open shift online. >> Why did we need a new approach to dev-ops? >> Yes exactly, so with this release we were really trying to solve three fundamental problems. The first is we see a lot of our customers spending probably too much time and money to integrate and maintain their tool chains. We know customers have entire teams dedicated just to integrating all the tools that they need and keeping it up and running. We wanted to take that off the table. We wanted to make it really simple for our customers just to get coding and not have to worry about creating this entire end to end environment. We feel like a lot of this stuff has been commoditized in some way, and it's not really differentiating. If you can integrate your tool better than mine it doesn't really help you produce better code at the end of the day, so we just wanted to make that simple for our customers. Second thing we wanted to do was make it really easy for developers to use containers in development, and help them get started faster. Developers can spend as much as 50% of their time just maintaining their local environment to do dev-end test. What we wanted to do was make it simple. One click, automatically create containerized development testing and staging environment without the need to type doctor commands or learn Kubernetes files, make it super simple for developers. And then third thing we want to do, which we think is really unique, is help developers make better decisions. This is one of the things that gets overlooked, in the whole dev-ops process. Is that developers have a lot of freedom of choice to choose things, basically anything off the internet that they want to use, and a lot of times, development teams and developers aren't quite sure if it's the right decision. So we're taking an analytics-based approach to helping solve that problem. We've created a new AI service that's built into the platform that analyzes their packages that they choose, based on 15 years of history that we have working on open source projects, plus other data that we use. And we help developers make better decisions, because we recommend packages based on that information. So if we see a package that they chose that might have a known vulnerability or that is one that developers frequently don't use, we flag that for them, and offer suggestions for better ones for them to use. >> Nudging them in the right decision. >> Harry: Yes. >> Harry, been to a lot of shows where we're talking about digital transformation. It's kind of a trope these days that says, software's leading the world and every company's becoming a software company. >> Harry: Or is a software company. >> Or is a software company, everything from the banks, to whatnot. Do you have some examples of what, some early customers that have been playing with Open Shift IO, how does this help them along that way, learn from your peer, and therefore know when you'll when to jump in? >> Sure. We don't have any customers on it now, this is one of those projects that we have been developing over the past year, and we really just announced it today. But we did take a lot of feedback from customers, and saw what they were doing. If you look at, probably one of the obvious ones that we look at are automotive companies. The four wheels and the engine is the commodity part of the car, sort of today. Much of the decisions you make are based on the technology that you choose. So it's really important for them to differentiate at the technology level. And you can only go so far with hardware, it's really software that powers everything else. And so you could think of most car companies now. That's how they become software companies. It goes down the line. If you think of banking, if you don't have a mobile banking app, is that a bank you're going to choose? It's pretty obvious examples of companies that are now software companies. >> So let's, if I'm an automotive car, and saying, "Okay, I got to worry about autonomous "vehicles, and all the competition" How will Open Shift IO help them forward faster? >> Sure. Building software is building software. No matter where you deploy it. And so the process that you go through to get your team, to envision the project, to set up the project and then divvy out the work and then have the work be done. Open Shift IO provides all the tools to do that. And then once the developer's get working on actually coding and doing the testing, and everything that the developer's do, one of the things that we provide is, like I said, every developer struggles, whether you're developing for something in a car, or somewhere else, struggles with the idea of setting up my local environment, setting up my data environment. Like I said, Open Shift IO makes it really simple for those developers, because we can let them choose pre-defined technology stacks. So in the case of the automotive maker, they can set a corporate standard for what type of technology stack they want to use, developers choose those stacks, and then we automatically create a containerized environment for them to work off of. Where they're working doesn't have to be their local machine, we host it for them in the cloud, so they never had to install anything or worry, again, another thing they don't have to worry about is, is it mismatched from everybody else working on that software? So we ensure consistency across the team, and what's going in production. So we minimize the risks there. And it doesn't matter if you're building a banking application or an embedded application, the steps are the same, and that's why we feel like it's commodotized at this point. It really is non-differentiating, so if we can streamline that whole process, we feel like it's the right decision for all developers. >> We want to talk big picture here about this space that you are in. Before the cameras were rolling, you were telling us about your prior career at Microsoft, but you've been in this developer evangelism, you call it an evangelist space for a long time, can you tell us how it's changed over the years? >> Yeah. So the obvious generations of going through the technology fads is one thing, now we're back to multiple micro-service type architectures and those sorts of things, so the technology trends and fads always come and go. But I think there's one fundamental shift that is sticking more, and it's not necessarily about the individual developer. It's about development teams. It's how do you get the entire team to function well? How do you build not just better code but better applications? And how do you fix that end-to-end experience? Because at the end of the day, the way developers add value to your business isn't by writing another line of code that doesn't necessarily have a bug, it's how do they shift better software faster? >> And so this focus on teams, and the end-to-end process, I think is a fundamental shift that we've-- I wouldn't say it's a shift, maybe it's a maturity that I've seen over the 20 years almost that I've been doing this. And so that's why we've really honed in on that. And I think another thing, people ask me questions about, we see these new modern types, new modern trends in application development. Mostly containers and microservices. And they usuallay put them together. And I try to tell people not to do that, because they're two separate things, and I think the one thing the industry has made a decision on is containers. I think that is the new, I call it the atomic unit of app execution. No matter where they're going to execute, their app's going to be in a container. Now whatever pattern they choose to use inside that container, I think it's still up for debate,, whether it's microservices or some other sort of pattern they want to use. So I think focus on teams and shift to containers, and a new type of level of isolation I think are two big-- >> And just to be clear, you're saying that, if I'm choosing microservices, I'm probably going to use containers but just because I'm using containers doesn't mean I'm using microservices? >> Harry: Exactly. And even in the case of microservices, it depends on how many containers you're going to use. The debate is, do I put, is a service per container, is it some level of services per container? I think there's a whole set of technology there to help manage people moving into that space, 'cause complexity grows pretty quickly when you start to get into that world, and we're going to focus on the tools for that as well. >> I want to get your opinion, the question is also, how much does the developer-- Where in the stack do they need to worry about? Can they just focus on writing the application, do they have to worry about... How far underneath it do they have to worry about? What's your thoughts, things about... We talked about containers, Kubernetes going, the whole serverless development. Function as a service. How do those fit into your thinking? >> So our approach in Open Shift IO, is to have developers worry up to the framework level. Everything below the framework, don't worry about it anymore, including containers. If you saw the demos on the summit keynote, all of that was containerized and we never once typed a docker command, you never saw a Kubernetes value, you never saw anything about containers, we just did it all for you. What you did see is choices around the frameworks and the components that I want to use inside my application, and how I express myself in code. And that's kind of where we, at least in Open Shift IO, that's where we see the dileneation. I don't want developers to have to worry about containers and everything below that. It should just come for free. Especially when we get in the world of serverless, where it's debatable what you're ever going to have to worry about at that point. That's the way we see it. >> When you're talking about workplace culture, and you said that there's a really big emphasis on teams and helping teams make better decisions, collaborate more effectively. Red Hat is known for having such a powerful culture, a cutlure of candor, a culture of risk-taking, a culture of openness and transparency. How does that translate into the kinds of tools that you are coming out with? >> Yeah, so one of the first things we knew we had to do and decide we had to do, is we're going to build Open Shift IO with Open Shift IO So our first customers are us, ourselves. >> Rebecca: You're the guinea pig. >> We're the guinea pig, and if anybody knows anything about Red Hat, its' exactly what you said, we have a very diverse, very geographically dispersed, very opinionated set of people at Red Hat, right? And so we had to take all that into account when building the application to satisfy our team first, and so I would say that the product that we're building today is a direct reflection on the culture of Red Hat, because if it can work it for Red Hat, it can work for many and most companies, let me tell you (laughs). >> Can you help connect the dots between Open Shift IO and what's happening with Open Shift in adoption there? I think that speaks to the maturity and the adoption of Open Shift itself that led you to this new tool. >> Yeah, when we first started to build the product, which was a little over a year ago, we wanted to build a product that was going to service the entire Red Hat portfolio. Which included Bare Metal, Rel and other platforms. But as we went through the process of building the application, we really did realize that Open Shift is becoming our default platform. Especially for containers as applications, and what developers want to do. So we decided to maximize our efforts around building the best experience for Open Shift, because it is the future for Red Hat. So the name shift at that point, we then went from a Redhat branded name to an Open Shift branded name. I think right now the Open Shift IO name, I will admit, is a little confusing for people, and it is intended to be kind of one of the first of the family of Open Shift products. Over time, it may emerge and be part of Open Shift overall. But right now, it's meant to complement Open Shift Online. And it's the developer experience for Open Shift Online, >> And it's free, the Open Shift IO, eventually, some of what you create there ends up in Open Shift, which would be something they paid for, right? >> Yeah, and we're trying to figure out what that model is right now. I think right now it is all free, we don't have any intentions to charge for the tools themselves. I think as developers use it, and then they consume more resources on Open Shift Online, we'll start to charge for the resources on Open Shift Online, that's probably the most obvious model. But that's still all stuff we're trying to work out as a company. >> It's a work in progress. >> Harry: Work in progress, definitely. >> Thanks so much for your time, Harry. >> Thanks for having me, it was great. >> From Rebecca Knight, and Stu Miniman, we hope to see you back here again for more from Redhat Summitt. (electronic jingle)

>> Announcer: Live from Boston Massachusets it's The Cube covering Red Hat Summit 2017. Brought to you by Red Hat. >> Welcome back to The Cubes coverage of the Red Hat Summit, I'm your host Rebecca Knight, along with my cohost Stu Miniman. We are joined by Jim Wasko, he is the vice president of Open Systems at IBM. Thanks so much for joining us. >> Thanks for having me. >> So, before we get into the new ways in which IBM and Red Hat are working together, give us a little history on the IBM, Red Hat alliance and contextualize things for us. >> Oh sure, sure, so we started with Linux back in the very late '90's as a strategic initiative for IBM, and so Red Hat was one of the key players at that time. We worked with other Linux vendors who no longer exist. Linux Care was one of the companies we worked with, Mandrake, things along those lines. But Red Hat has been a constant through all of that. So we started in the very early days with Red Hat and we had an X86 line at the time, and then as well as Power NZ, and even in the very early days, we had ports of Red Hat running on IBM, all of IBM's hardware. >> And the alliance is going strong today? >> Yes it is, yes it is. So we have that long history and then as Red Hat transformed as a company into their enterprise software and REL in particular, that really matured, as far as our relationship was concerned, and I'm the engineering VP with Red Hat, and we just had a very strong collaborative relationship. We know how to work upstream, they obviously work very well upstream. We've worked in the Fedora Project, as a staging area for our platforms and so, yeah, we've known each other very well. I've been working on Linux at IBM since November of 2000. >> Jim, so IBM, long history with Open Source, I remember when it was the billion dollars invested in Linux. We covered on The Cube when Power became Open Power. Companies like Google endorsing Open Power. Bring us up to speed as to Open Power, how that fits with what you're doing with Red Hat and what you're talking about on the show here. >> Oh yeah, so Open Power was really about opening up hardware architecture as well as the operating system and firmware. And so, as that's progressed Red Hat has also joined in that Open Power initiative. If you look at when we started, just a small group of companies kicked it off, and today we're over 300 companies, including Red Hat as a part of Open Power foundation. They're also board members, so as a key partner in strategic partner of ours, they've recognized that it's an ecosystem that is worth participating in, because it's very disruptive, and they've been very quick to join us. >> That's good, we've talked to Jim Lighthurst about how they choose and they look for communities that are going to do good things for the industry, for the world, for the users, so, it's a nice endorsement to have Red Hat participate, I would think. >> Oh, it is, they don't enter into anything lightly. And so, their participation really is a signal, I think, in the marketplace, that this is a good strategic initiative for the industry. >> Where do you see as the biggest opportunities for growth, going forward. >> Opportunities for growth, there's quite a few. A lot of people don't realize that Linux is really the underlying engine for so many things that we do in the technology world. It's everything from embedded into the automotive industry, if you've got Onboard computer, which most new cars do, 80% of those are Linux. If you talked about web serving, websites, front ends, it's Linux, you know. I know with my mom, she's like "What do you work on?" and I say Linux you know, and she's like "Is that like Windows?" and I'm like "No." And then I tell her, you know Mom you've used it, probably a dozen times today, and then I give her examples. And so, all the new innovation tends to happen on Linux. If we look at HyperLedger, and Blockchain in particular, good example, that's one that takes a lot of collaboration, a lot of coordination if it's going to have a meaningful impact on the world. And so, it starts with Linux as foundation to it. So, any of those new technologies, if you look at what we're doing with quantum computing for example, it takes a traditional computer to feed it, and a tradition computer for the output, and we don't have time to go into details behind that but, Linux fed, as a part of it, because really that's where the innovation is taking place. >> Jim, could you expand a little bit more on the Hyperledger and Blockchain piece? A lot of people still, I think they understand BitCoin and digital currency there, but it's really some of the distributed and open source capabilities that these technologies deliver to the market, have some interest and use cases, what's the update on that? >> Oh that's a good question. So, a lot of people think of BitCoin and that says a very limited use case. As we look at Hyperledger, we notice that it could be applied in so many more ways than just a financial kind of way. Where we've done, it is logistics, and supply chain, we've implemented it at IBM for our supply chain and we've taken data from Weather.com, company that we've acquired, and we use that for our logistics for end of quarter for example. So that's something that was easier for us to implement, because it's all within our company. But then we are expanding that through partners. So that's an example where you could do supply chain logistics, you could do financials. But really, in order for that to work 'cause it's a distributed ledger, you need everybody in the ecosystem to participate. It can't be one company, can't be two companies. And so, that's why very early on we recognized we should jointly start up a project that the Linux Foundation, called Hyperledger, to look at what's the best and how could we all collaborate because we're all going to benefit from it, and it will be transformative. >> So what are you doing there, because as you said, these do present big challenges because there has to buy in from everyone? >> Yeah so if I look at the Hyperledger project specifically at the Linux Foundation, we've got customers of ours like JPMC for example, founding member and participant, we've got a distribution partners, we've got technology partners all there and so we contributed early code. Stuff we'd done in research, as kind of like a building block. And then we have members, both from research and product development side of the house, that are constantly working in that upstream community on the source code. >> And continually contributing, and okay... >> Yeah, well continually contributing, that's on the technology side. On the business side we're doing early proof of concepts, so we worked early with a company called Everledger that looks at the history of diamonds and tracks them beginning to end, and the ultimate goal of that is to eliminate blood diamonds from the marketplace and so if you know, it's also a very good market to begin because it's a limited set of players. So you can implement the technology, you can do the business processes behind it and then demonstrate the value. So that's an early project. Most of the financial institutions are doing stuff, whether it's stock trading or what have you. And so we're doing early proof of concept, so we're taking both technology and business, you marry 'em together as Jim Whitehurst said the other day you know, what's the minimal viable product, lets get that out there, lets try it out, lets learn. >> Release early release often. >> Yes, and then modify quickly, don't start with something you think is overly baked, and find that you have to shelf it in order to kind of back track and make corrections. >> And what is like to mesh those two cultures, the technology and the business? I mean, do you find that there is a clash? >> We have not. Now at IBM it was not a simple transition back in the late '90's. There were people that thought Open Source would be just a flash in the pan, and here we are so many years later, that's not true. And so early on, like I said, there were a lot of internal kind of debates, but that debate is long since settled, so we don't have that. And if you look across our different business divisions, even within our company, whether its Cloud, whether it's Cognitive, whether it's systems business, all use Open Source. Whether we contribute everything externally and we're using third party packaged, or we consume it ourselves. And we see that as happening across industry, even with out clients. Some that you might think are very traditional, they recognize that's where the innovation is taking place. And so, you always look at balancing is this viable, is that healthy? Or is still the commercially available stuff the better stuff? Just a quick story, I had a development team and we were doing Agile and we needed a tool to do to track our sprints and everything like that, and so, all of my developers were Open Source developers, and so that's their bias. If we're going to use software, it has to be Open Source, they went and evaluated a couple projects and they found Open Source software that had been abandoned, they were smart enough to recognize we also acquired a company called Rational, and Rational Team Concert does this, but it's proprietary. And so they initially resisted it, but then they looked at these Open Source project and saw, if we picked up that code, we maintain it forever, and we're alone. That is as worthless, as it can be, because there's no benefit. Doing Open Source, where you have multiple people contributing, you give an added benefit. So they went with our in house stuff, Rational Team Concert. Just showed the maturity of the team that even though they think Open Source is really the best thing in life, you've got to balance the business with it. >> Jim, so we look at the adoption of Open Source, it took many years to mature. Today, you talk about things like Cognitive, it's racing so fast, give us a little bit of look forward, you know, what's changing your space? What are you looking forward to? What would we expect to see from you by the time we come back next year? >> Sure, so a lot of what you've heard here at the conference so a lot of things that we're doing, are often offered in a Cloud platform, or as a hosted service, or as a service. So, for example, we do have Blockchain as a service available today. And it's running the back end is on mainframe cloud, for example, running Linux. Other examples of that, looking at new applications for quantum computing. Well that requires severengic freezing in order to keep those cubits alive. And so that's a hosted thing, and we actually have that available online, people can use that today. So I think that you're going to see a lot of early access, even for commercial applications. Early access so people can try it, and then based on their business model, like we've heard from clients this week, sometimes they'll need it on prem, and for various business reasons, and other times they can do it on the cloud and we'll be able to provide that. But we give them early access via cloud and as a service. And I think that's what you're going to see a lot in the industry. >> And it's this hybrid mix, as you said, some on prem, some off prem, okay. >> Jim: Yes. >> Well Jim, thanks so much for joining us, we really appreciate you sitting down with us. >> You're welcome, and thanks for your time. >> I'm Rebecca Knight, for Stu Miniman, we'll have more from the Red Hat Summit after this. (upbeat electronic music)

>> Narrator: Live from Boston, Massachusetts, it's The Cube, covering Red Hat Summit 2017, brought to you by Red Hat. >> Welcome back to The Cube's coverage of the Red Hat Summit here in Boston, Massachusetts. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight, along with my cohost, Stu Miniman. We are joined by Kirk Skaugen, he is the Executive Vice President and President of Lenovo Data Center group, Lenovo. So thanks so much for joining us, Kirk. >> Thanks for having me. >> I want to start out by talking about Lenovo's commitment to open source, right. We're hearing a lot about this in this summit, It's the real deal! >> Yeah, well I was at for 24 years and had a long partnership with Red Hat there so as I moved over to Lenovo on that, open source is a key aspect of our strategy. Kind of foundational for us and where we sit with the days in our company, because we don't have this legacy. We're not someone who's trying to protect an old router business or an old storage business. So as we look at open source as part of our, kind of, open partnerships commitment, it's pretty foundational to what we're doing. >> Kirk, could you help us unpack that a little bit? We heard in Keynote this morning they talked about open source hardware. I know you guys have been involved in OCP. How much is software, how much is hardware? Where do you guys put commitment in? How much of it is partners? >> Yeah, so I think we're in about over 30 different standards bodies now committed to open source. It really happened after our acquisition of the IBM xSeries server business, so now we're the third largest x86 server provider in the world and we're expanding ahead in the data center, so we're participating about 30 standards bodies. We have about 12 open source projects going on with Red Hat, and we're really at the base level, announcing today something called Open Platform at Lenovo. It's something we said we would do a year ago at this conference, and now here at the Red Hat summit we're showing it in our booth actually there. It's a base open platform with an optimized stack which you can put NFE and other solutions on top of, so that's one example of things we said we were going to do a year ago today and then are doing today. It's really about, from our perspective, optimizing the base hardware for all these platforms. >> Interesting, we look at things. I hear people look at open source and there's more transparency. It's not like '08; there's a secret project we're working on and here it is. You worked at Intel. Everybody kind of understood the tick-tock that went on there, how does open source influence the planing that you guys go into and do you feel the road maps at a company like Lenovo are more transparent since you're part of open source? I mean, again, what you should expect from us is we're a leader in x86 system technology but we've also acquired assets like blade network technologies in the past as well. We're expanding as a company out of our server routes into networking and storage. We think containerization is going to be the future. Today we're sitting with, something like 32 world record benchmarks and our theme is kind of "different is better" which means it's the little things that we're doing with all these partners to tune out the best performance of these systems working with our partners. We're not trying to go far up the stack and compete with our partners. I think that makes us a little bit unique. We're in trying to be the best x86 system provider in the world. Expand that into storage and networking as we get the software defined. >> Great, and absolutely. It would be useful to kind of explain your role in the data center group itself. As you said, you've got in some pieces. >> Some came from the IBM, there's various acquisitions. >> Kirk: Mmmhmm. >> Lay out a little bit more of what you guys do and what your partner does. >> Sure, so I think a lot of people know Lenovo as being number one in PCs. This is the 25th year of ThinkPad and we look at our Think Server brand today and our X series brand that we acquired from IBM. >> So we're, again, the third largest server provider but expanding that into storage and networking and then we acquired the Motorola phone business, so we just crossed to be number four in the world outside of China, with a presence in India. So we basically have three businesses within Lenovo but Data Center group, we believe, is a big growth driver for the future. A lot of people I think, 25 years ago, would have never thought Lenovo would be number one in PCs worldwide. I think we're kind of sitting there as a server provider with number one in customer satisfaction, number one in server reliability, number one in quality by all these third party measures. Our biggest issue is people don't realize we acquired this amazing asset from IBM so we're here at the summit basically showing and promoting our brand, but also promoting the proof points underneath that. >> This event is very global, multicultural. Lenovo's also a global company. Maybe speak a little bit to that; where your teams live, where development happens and what your customer base looks like. >> I live in Raleigh. We have a dual headquarters in Raleigh and Beijing, but we operate in over 160 countries. We have over 10,000 IT professionals now within the data center group. We have manufacturing in the United States, in Mexico, in Hungary, in China, so we can basically globally ship everywhere. When I looked at moving from Intel to another company, number one this enabled me to get one step closer to the customer, but I thought Lenovo's one of the best companies I saw that we're partnering. I think in the data center group, you look at our list of partners and it's unprecedented partly because we don't have a legacy business, so almost every startup and everybody who wants to do something new ends up wanting access to our presence in China, being number one in China, but also because we're not protecting a legacy so they see us as someone interesting and unique to partnership with. So open source is one of those areas where I think, now that we separated from IBM we're clearly an x86 provider committed to open source and the way we're getting into telecom, where we hadn't been, and competing with our big customers is because we're open and ideally we're more agile and partner better. >> I'm wondering if you could comment on the culture of these culture of these various places. As you said, you've been in Portland for a long time. You're now new to Raleigh. Your company is Beijing and Raleigh and you do business all over the world. How do you experience how these engineers, are they different in different parts of the world? Or is open source really transcending that and there is a much more of an openness and a transparency? >> Yeah, I thought I'd fit really well into the Lenovo culture. I think six months into the job, I feel like it's exceeded my expectations. If you look at the executive staff at Lenovo there's something like seven different nationalities on there from Italy, and Switzerland, and Australia, and the U.S., and China, Hong Kong, Singapore, India. >> Rebecca: And that's by design. >> Yeah, by design. So I think it provides a really unique perspective as you're looking at market trends, and then customers and things like that. When you look at the engineering aspect of it I'm looking at this efficiencies of the PC, the cost economics of the PC, having some of these factors. We're actually one of the last companies who's designing our own systems and putting them in our own factory, so from that perspective we get the efficiencies of being part of a larger PC company, but listen, data center's very different, right? We have a completely autonomous data center group now but we get the efficiencies of that, so we can kind of get the best of all the cultures that we participate in with development in Romania, in India, in China, Raleigh and again, we can manufacture in any place the customer wants us to manufacture pretty much. >> You mentioned that you're one of the last companies that's designing your own systems and putting them into your machines. Is that going to go by the wayside? You're one of the last, so all these other companies have decided it's just not sustainable. Can you comment on that? >> Well I think consolidation is absolutely key. If you look at the PC industry, and I managed the PC business at Intel the last three years. There's absolutely been consolidation in that market. You should look at some of the Japanese suppliers going away, but that's what enabled Lenovo to continue to grow in a multi-hundred million unit market. Today we ship about 100 servers a minute. A hundred servers an hour, rather, about one a minute. If you look at the consolidation trends I think still going to be a lot of consolidation in the market around that, so we believe we can grow in that market. PCs through consolidation, and if the PC market flattens out, even in the data center space where I think there'll be fewer and fewer players that will be able to compete. It really gets down to just uber-efficiency. When you're running in a factory that's building as the number one PC company, you get manufacturing efficiencies that other people can't do at our subscale. So as an example, when we look at things like supercomputing we're now the fastest growing supercomputing company on the planet. 99 of the top 500 supercomputers. That's because we can build very, very efficient products in a market that typically runs on razor-thin margins, right. >> Kirk, we talk about that huge volume of servers. Can you speak to where Lenovo's playing in the service provider and cloud marketplace? >> Sure, I think we just reorganized into kind of, four customer-centric markets. So first is in hyperscale, we participate with Baidu, Alibaba, Tencent and we're expanding across some of the largest hyperscale providers in the West Coast. We believe designing our own board, putting in our own factories gives us the cost economics to compete with the largest data centers in the world, just 'cause we can make money in PC desktop towers which is a pretty commoditized business. We think we can make money there. Software-defined, I think what we're seeing is because of our lack of legacy hardware whether it's a legacy SAN or a legacy routing business, we can leap ahead there both through our own stack but also our partner's stack. Third is supercomputing, so this is something where we brought a lot of that application knowledge over from IBM to the acquisition, and our goal is to continue to be the fastest growing supercomputing company on the planet and right now we're number two in the world, so we're building our Barcelona supercomputer right now to be 12 times more powerful that what it is today. With the University of Adelaide, 30 times more powerful than their last computer. Supercomputing's the third, and then the fourth is just traditional data center. So there you look at things like SAP HANA, where we were solutions-lead. We're trying to not just ship the hardware, but deliver optimized solutons so we feel like the little things don't mean a lot, the little things mean everything. So why does Lenovo have 32 worldwide per benchmarks? 'Cause we're tuning things with SAP, and now, for example, SAP just went public that they're running their own internal HANA on Lenovo. So I think it's a testament, it's the fine tuning of the application. It's hyperscale, software-defined, supercomputing, and then legacy data center infrastructure lead by solutions. Those are our four segments. >> Kirk, you talked about, it was 25 years for ThinkPad. As I look out towards the future, the data center group, what's kind of the touchstone? What are people going to really understand and know that group for in the future? >> Well, I think we want to be most trusted from a data center provider, right. We're not trying to contain anyone in a legacy thinking. We want to leap ahead into software-defined. We think we have the base hardware, customer satisfaction, reliability to do that. So I think, number one, we want to be most trusted. Number two, we're trying to be incredibly agile. Much faster than companies that are larger than us. That's been an innovation culture that's lead us to be number one in PCs, not through cost, but through innovation. We want to be known for innovation and being faster to deploy innovation both with us, but as well was with our partners. So if you go into our both, you showcasing with Intel. We're showcasing with Juniper. We're showcasing with Red Hat. So that's a very decent foundation. I think we can leap ahead, not be encumbered by the past, and be trusted, innovative, cost-effective, and make a lead to software-defined. What's interesting to me is, I think when I joined Intel in 1992, there was something like 100 gigabytes a day. When I joined Lenovo 24 years later, it was like 250 million gigabytes a day of data, if I have my numbers correctly. It's going to leapfrog up just in a massive way over the next 10 years with 5G and the whole internet buildup so you hear that from almost every keynote speaker, but what it means to me is that, we're just at the beginning of cloud transformation. A company like Lenovo, we didn't invent the PC, we just became number one in it over 25 years. We didn't invent servers, but we acquired amazing people. They can then leap us ahead over the next, now, 25 years. (laughing) >> Well Kirk, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for your time. >> Yeah. Thank you It's a pleasure, it's a great event. So thank you. >> I'm Rebecca Knight for Stu Miniman. We'll be more with the Red Hat summit after this. (electronic music)