>> From Seattle, Washington, it's theCUBE covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon North America 2018 brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and it's ecosystem partners. >> Hello everyone, welcome back to theCUBE's coverage here. Day three of wall to wall coverage at KubeCon, CloudNativeCon 2018, here in Seattle, theCUBE's been breaking it down all week. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman. Our next guest is Tuan Nguyen who is the principal engineer in technical marketing, cloud products and solutions at Cisco Systems. Tuan, welcome to theCUBE. Thanks for joining us. >> Thanks for having me. Thank you. >> So obviously, cloud has been a big part of Cisco. We've seen at Cisco Live last year and Cisco Barcelona. >> Yeah. >> Got your big European event coming up, Cisco Live in Europe. >> Yes. >> Cloud has been a big part of the CEO's conversations on stage. >> Yes. >> Cisco's going all in on cloud, DevNet. >> Yeah. >> DevNet Create, two communities. You guys got a cloud native vibe going on in Cisco. >> Yeah, we do. >> Cloud centered. You got some products that are addressing this. >> Right. >> This is a, shift for Cisco, big time. >> Yeah. >> You've in the cloud, but this is like all. It feels like an all in. >> Right, right. Yeah, yeah, so what we've been evangelizing to people here is that Cisco is a software company, right? We certainly have a very strong heritage in our enterprise relationships related to our hardware platforms but we're transitioning and we're really making that conversion to being a software company. Cisco has been acquiring talent and technology in the past couple years. We've developed some strong relationships with Google and AWS as well and we developed these reference architectures that our customers can buy as kind of a single unit and get the support that they need from us. >> Yeah. >> So. >> We covered your recent announcement with AWS. >> Yes. >> Really nice, elegantly designed Kubernetes strategy where using EKS over here, you got the Cisco stuff on here so it's seamless experience for the customer which is great, congrats, I think that's a great announcement. I think it's directionally correct. I think that's what customers want. But I want to ask you a bigger question I want to get your opinion on, perspective. When you look at Kubernetes, what we're hearing here at the show from end users and from the emerging start ups that are contributing is that, breaking down the monolithic application into a series of granule sets of services is what everyone is doing. That's clearly, that microservices, a variety of other things, Kubernetes can connect that. But it's the network that brings it together. >> Right. >> So we're seeing the policy knobs inside Kubernetes as being a very strategic benefit. We had one expert say, "A lot of people "aren't taking advantage of those policy knobs. "This is a great opportunity." >> Right. >> You guys are, (laughing) as networked as you could be at Cisco. This is your DNA. >> Yeah. >> How are you guys looking at Kubernetes? Are you looking at the policy knobs? How do you talk to your customers about this new opportunity with Kubernetes? >> Yeah. >> What's the real up side-- >> Yeah. >> For your customers with Kubernetes? >> Yeah. So one, you mentioned, we see Kubernetes as very pervasive so we offer an on prem version of Kubernetes and of course, you know, we partner with Google and with AWS to deliver on cloud versions of Kubernetes and related to policies, application policies, in the form of Istio and network policies or security policies in the form of a network interface. Our on prem solution offers three types of CNIs. So we're very flexible in that way and certainly if you are a Cisco customer and you have a Cisco ecosystem of hardware platforms then we natively integrate into those platforms and we let you leverage your existing investments, yeah. >> So if I look at it that way, then I'm saying, okay, I'm good with Cisco right now. >> Yeah. >> Do I have to change anything with Kubernetes? What's the impact to me, as a Cisco customer? >> Yeah. >> Is this added value? Consistent environment? What's the impact to the customer's day to day, operational? (laughing) >> Sure, sure. Yeah. >> Environment? >> Yeah, so our customers are asking us to tie both VM based and container based workloads into CICD, so we obviously, with with our ACI/CNI we give them the capability to construct policies in Kubernetes that end up on the hardware platform, right? That's number one. Then we also have a hardware registry, we have security policies, that can be carried across different platforms, so in your private cloud and VMware and OpenStack, you can carry those same policies. For us, we've got application delivery, frameworks and platforms, that deliver the application in the form of both VM and container based as well as bare metal and we kind of unify the user experience, when it comes to application deployment in Kubernetes. >> Yeah, so Tuan, I'm actually glad that we got you towards the end of what we've been talking about here because one of the things we've been teasing apart is, multi clouds, in many ways, is like what we've been talking about a long time about multi vendor. >> Yeah. >> And the networking space is an area that we really understand. You know, what worked and what didn't work in a multi vendor world and the management piece was often the breaking point because just stitching all those together, we've looked for the last few years, customers have multi cloud and getting their arms around that and how do I manage that, can be a real challenge. >> Yeah, yeah. >> We know Cisco's making investments, they've made acquisitions. Tell us, what have we learned from the past? What's different about this now that will make it successful where management has been one of the pitfalls for quite a long time? >> Yeah, yeah. So I think what we've learned from the past is that customers are asking us for policies that can span across the multi cloud, right? So, whereas certain platforms will give you a hybrid cloud experience, Cisco is investing in things like VPN meshed apologies into CSR, in ASR, in protecting workloads as they move across different cloud targets. And then also in the provisioning and life cycle management. We feel that customers want the capability to run applications in any cloud environment and under any type of overlay or underlay networking platforms, yeah. >> Tuan, one of the things that you talk about not only getting your arms around it but there is multi axis's that I need to optimize for. One of the ones, of course, sorting out is cost. So, you know, where does Cisco sit in this environment? The big shift that I think was really highlighted for me last year, going to Cisco Live is, it used to be most of what I'm managing, I control. >> Right. >> Today, most of the network and most of the environments that I'm in charge of? They're outside of my purview. >> Right. >> With doing that multi cloud world. >> Right. >> So how I make sure that I don't, you know, get myself in trouble with the CFO? >> Right. >> Or have unexpected things come up? >> Right, right, yeah. I came through a software acquisition called CliQr Technologies and CliQr Technologies is that one tool that gives you that experience and allows you to see cloud cost. So cloud cost from a hourly, metered perspective but also from a budgeting perspective. And we're adding additional components into our platform that gives you like true cost for all of your compute, all of your network, your storage, your services like Lambda and then also makes recommendations on the instant sizes that you need to use. We have policies like suspension policies that help our customers to save on their cloud bill. In a lot of ways, the life cycle management aspect of applications is something that differentiates us from other cloud management platforms. >> Talk about the cost side and the cost of ownership. I've always been talking about the cloud as the TCO or total cost of ownership, changes a bit. What are some of the challenges that you've seen the customers having that you guys are helping with? When you look at integrating security, networking and application performance and management? Cause it's not siloed anymore. >> Yeah. >> They're integrating together. >> That's right. >> This is a new dynamic. >> Right, right. >> What's state of the art? What are you guys doing? You guys address that? What are some of the customer challenges? Just, what's your thoughts on that area? >> Yeah so most of the time there are two basic challenges to this. One is, you know bringing the cloud economy into the private cloud consumption is something that our platform does. And then also being able to visualize all the costs. Helping our customers to make good decisions about what types of workloads run where best and whether it's, so we enable, obviously, VMs as well as cloud native, container based, micro services to co-exist in a single platform so we'll deploy VMs and containers in a hybrid fashion. >> Yeah. >> Or we'll deploy them into the same and we'll give you the utilization of those workloads based on dollar amounts, based on run time and also based on the type of workload. >> So here's the curve ball question for you. Now multi cloud comes into the equation? >> Yeah. >> How do you guys deal with that because workload, in some cases, I've heard from customers that refactoring those workloads is a problem. >> Right. >> So if I'm going to run true multi cloud, I'm going to have multiple clouds, I need networks to know, have smarts, around where I want to put that and do I want it in different geography maybe or region? So the network has the intelligence on a lot of things. >> Right. >> How are you guys addressing the multi cloud component? >> Yeah, yeah. >> With workload? Without refactoring? >> Yeah. So because we can compose applications that consist of both VMs and containers, right? One of the projects, just one of the use cases that we worked on with our relationship with Google was to, from cloud center, to deploy cloud native workloads in GKE that would navigate and basically traverse the VPN network to go back into the on prem target in order to access a database that was kind of a legacy database using an API URL. So that whole workflow was something that we solved for with our reference architecture so, you know, we obviously have the portfolio of products that allows our customers to take advantage of both hardware, software and networking and security and monitoring all in one reference architecture. >> A lot of opportunities for you guys. I think you're positioned well. We've covered you guys on the DevNet, DevNet Create. >> Yeah. >> You're seeing the cloud center, this dashboard kind of model of looking at the operations side, the development side. A lot of changes. Really kind of fit right into your wheelhouse. >> Yes, yeah. >> I think the Kubernetes policy knobs, it's a big story that I'm walking away with on this trip and saying, wow, policy sounds like a networking thing. Networking guys love policy. >> Yeah. >> If you can automate it? >> Yeah, that's right. >> And managed the costs? >> Yeah. >> It's a good thing. >> Yeah. >> Thanks for coming on, appreciate your insight. >> Thank you, thank you very much. >> CUBE coverage here, day three continues. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman. Stay with us for wall to wall coverage here at KubeCon, CloudNativeCon. We'll be right back with more, after this short break. (upbeat techno music)

>> From Seattle, Washington, it's theCUBE! Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and it's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back everyone, it's theCUBE's live coverage, day three of three days of coverage here at KubeCon 2018, and CloudNativeCon put on by the Linux Foundation and CNCF. I'm John Furrier with theCUBE with Stu Miniman, breaking down all the action. Our next guest is Hussein Khazaal, who's the Vice President of Marketing and Partners of Nuage Networks. Thanks for coming on, good to see you! >> Thanks, John, good to see you. >> Love that shirt, automation... >> Yeah. >> That's the theme. >> That is! (chuckles) >> Cloud native, cloud operations, thanks for coming on. So take a minute just to talk about what you guys are doing with the show, what's the key value proposition you guys are part of, what conversations you're having. >> Right so, for Nuage we basically deliver a software-based virtual networking solution. And a lot of our customers appreciate the value it brings because they have multi cloud environments, they have workloads in on-prem. Those are mixed, some VM, some bare metal, some containers, they have workloads in public cloud, and what we enable them with our software is to stitch all that together using an API-driven networking model that has policy applied to the workload, and you have that mixed workload environment with network policy and security built into that platform. And that's kind of where we help not really break what Kubernetes brings to developers, but maintain that, giving the IT and infrastructure folks the ability to have visibility control and maintain that. >> We were just talking with a partner from Google, we always talk to the same companies, so some of the senior people at AWS, and all the clouds. Obviously cloud operations is what everyone wants, that's the preferred environment, whether you're on-premises or in the cloud, Edge is now on the horizon. Storage, networking and compute is still the core, it's just a little bit different. But there's new jobs that are emerging around Kubernetes, you see the job board, but it's also revitalizing older roles, the network guy, the storage guy, the server guy, traditional IT enterprises are seeing those roles transform. So I got to ask you, as you guys are in the middle of all the networking side, how do see that person, that role, that piece of the puzzle in an IT enterprise change with Kubernetes? >> Absolutely, I mean, the one thing that we had some of our customers do is that these roles are no longer defined by a specific, you have to have these mixed skills, you have to understand what the developer needs as an infrastructure person, and the developer needs what kind of tools that they need to implement so you can do your job, and that's why Kubernetes, and when you're talking about networking and security, you have to understand Linux, you have to understand programming, to be able to give the developers the tools that they need to develop and understand the requirements and then by the same token, they need to make sure that from an intercom perspective, you need to understand, you still need the visibility, you still need control, right? And that balance can only be achieved if you kind of do the exchange roles, right? You get to work with the developers, and then the developers need to look at infrastructure and that's kind of where you stick at Kubernetes, and with what Red Hat is doing with OpenShift, and a lot of the vendors in terms of integrating with CNI, to be able to plug in and tap in and be able to deliver that security and that relief. >> I get what you're saying. I think you've got a great thread there that I want to pull on a little bit. So, I think back at networking over the last few decades, we used to call it multi-vendor, now we call it multi-cloud, we've been talking about automation forever, but it's different now. So, I think that thread you were going on is part of that answer, but explain why now, multi cloud and automation, what's that's real about that compared to what we were talking about the dominant, hardware-led environment that we lived in for decades? >> Absolutely, I mean just you look at how people develop, look at containers, the lifetime of a container is very short compared to like a monolithic application, things that are more dynamic. Some enterprises need to scale up operations, and then that's where they kind of... So early on it was more like a developer testing things in their lab and when you go into production and the rate and the scale at which you operate, dictates that, you know, look, I need to work in public cloud, I need to work with bare metal, and then that, the amount of the infrastructure guys meet that demand otherwise those enterprises are not going to be able to serve their end customers. And that's why they're kind of working with us, and even the community's coming together to address these, and we're looking with-- for performance with the vendors and then even for networking and that's what's driving that. >> Yeah, I want to get your reaction, I was talking to somebody here at the show and they said "Kubernetes is a reset for SDN." >> Yep, it is! I mean the thing is, Kubernetes as it is is perfect, there's no reason to reinvent the wheel, right? There's a lot of adaption from developers' infrastructure. What we're trying to do is build around it, you'll see orchestration on top, you'll see networking, this is such a good thing that everybody is, and you can see by the level of attendance, the level of interest, and engagement, now what we're trying to do is like grow the operation. What are the problems that are left for an enterprise to solve? And that's the multi-cloud piece, right? How do you do policy, network and security policy in that hybrid environment, right? For example, you look at a retailer, they have users using mobile apps, they have remote stores, they have data centers, they have public cloud, and then they're using containers (mumbles) how do you stitch all that together? And that's for us, the challenge that we're addressing. >> And Kubernetes gives you a lot of policy knobs, how are you guys seeing that opportunity? 'Cause that's where people see that kind of piece. >> The three letters, API, right? This API makes integration such an easy thing to do. And then we have obviously, using a CNI plug-in from a (mumbles) perspective, to be able to work in that eco-system and deliver what we do. We have, obviously you guys know that in OpenStack, they're running Kubernetes inside OpenStack and then you have people running Kubernetes on bare metal, right? But it's still Kubernetes and that's how we're able to serve our customers to kind of stitch between between those different stories. >> Alright, Hussein, let's talk about security. So, you know, when containers first came out it was all this argument of how do I architect it? Do I have to shove the thing in a VM, or now is it a micro VM? How do I make sure I ensure security? What's working well? What do we still have a lot of work to do in the security space? >> I think if you look at the three areas: visibility, protection and then the third one is dynamic further response, right? So you can't protect what you can't see and visibility is kind of the first thing that we as networking, because we move packets around, can deliver to the enterprise. The second one is isolation, is that everything you have in a pod is contained. Now between pods, if you're running in public cloud, as a bank, you may want to encrypt that traffic, right? You need to do some level of protection, whether that's in-flight protection or separation between them. The third one is, as you're moving things around and you see bad things happen, you need to not wait for a person, because you're looking at scale, like thousands of these instances that are moving around. The network is intelligent enough to act based on rules that you give it to, like if there's a threat, we'll just quarantine the source or remove traffic. This combination is what's missing and that's kind of what a lot of... >> I think that's an opportunity that's clear, but most people look at networking and say "oh, let's move it from A to B, point A to point B." It's now so much more than that, it's more headroom. What is the specific headroom on top of that? Because there's a lot of security opportunities, things are moving around, you can see the bad guys and all kinds of different threats, but not just moving packets, it's other things. What's the other key things that people should pay attention to when really designing these architectures? >> So the one thing, obviously, when you're doing things in a lab, you're not really going by scale. You're not looking at throughput, latency, things like that that's part of networking and that's kind of the work we're doing with some of the, like Mellanox, you know? On terms of providing high-throughput, providing low latency for specific applications. The other one is, how do you provide that intelligence? Like all this data has to go somewhere to be processed, to work with other security solutions. Those are the two things that maybe people don't give that much thought early on, but as you scale your operations, they become real bottlenecks for you. >> So I want to get a chance for you to get a plug in for the company, DevOps. This infrastructure, this code has kind of been kicking around since the beginning. It's actually happening, a programmable infrastructure. You know, at the app layer for coding, but now network's programmable. What are you guys doing in that area? How are you guys extending that value proposition to your customers? Why are they going with you guys? Why are you guys winning? What's the one thing that people should know about in order to come to you guys? >> Flexibility and openness, that's the key one. We are hardware agnostic, any switch, any network, any hypervisor, any CMS, content management system, that's our focus is our networking and security. Similar to Kubernertes, you can run Kubernetes anywhere. That's how we provide networking and we have an open eco-system that gives you scale, performance and security without really limiting your options. And the thing is, we have all, going forward, like people can do stuff on premises today, they may move to cloud, we don't lock you in to one architecture. The architecture's fluid and it could be whatever. You may see the future one way today, but in a couple of months as we all know, things change. >> Why would someone call you guys up? What's the paying point? What's the value? When will they know, oh okay I've got to get Nuage involved? >> Scale, multi-cloud, that's basically it. If you're looking for multi-cloud, multiple workloads and you're running things at scale, you need to talk to us because that's basically where we help you solve it. >> Hussein, talk a little bit about how Edge fits into it too. You know when you think back to even before cloud, think back to the XSPs. Networking securities have always been the choke point, physics still rules the day. We know it's only getting more complicated with Edge, more surface area for security, but I have to imagine that applies into what you're doing. >> Absolutely, I mean we've done, so as you decompose these things and you move them apart, your attack services increase, right? So the security is, as you move, those communication channels have to be protected somehow. We have an extension which is basically part of getting into the Edge, adding more intelligence at the Edge, because that traffic is coming from the Edge to the core, it goes to public cloud. And being able, as a networking solution, to steer that traffic securely using encryption or whatever have you in terms of visibility, provides those enterprises with a secure, sound platform to really do their business. >> What's your take on the show? 8,000 people up from 4,000. We were comparing it earlier to Adobe's Reinvent. A rising tide, is it a tsunami? >> Absolutely, I mean I couldn't believe the number when they said it because obviously we saw they'd sold out the tickets, but coming here to see all that many people and there have been earlier shows and the growth is tremendous. >> Well thanks for coming for coming on and sharing your insight and congratulations on the scale, we love it. Data, scale, programmable networks, it's all part of the new evolution of cloud native. It's on premises, it's in the cloud, multiple workloads, multiple clouds. This is the choice everyone has, they're rebuilding. Don't forget networking compute and storage, it's still a Holy Trinity there. Congratulations, thanks for coming on. >> Thank you very much. >> More live coverage here at theCUBE, here in Seattle for KubeCon and CloudNativeCon, day three of three days of coverage, this is theCUBE, we'll be right back after this short break. (upbeat music)

>> From Seattle, Washington, it's 'theCUBE' Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon North America 2018, brought to you by 'redhat' The CloudNative computing foundation and it's ecosystem partners. (upbeat music) >> Hello everyone and welcome back to live CUBE coverage here at Seattle for KubeCon, CloudNativeCon2018. I'm John Furrier. Stu Miniman, breaking down all the action here for CloudNative, trend, a lot of ecosystem partners, a lot of new developers, a lot of great open-source action in the cubes here covering it. We've been there from the beginning, our next guest and user, Max Schulze, Advisor and Founder of NBF, welcome to the CUBE, thanks for coming on. >> Thank-you, thank-you for having me. >> So tell me about what you're working on. You are doing something pretty compelling with Kubernetes and CloudNative, take a minute to explain what you do. >> Yeah actually, we are advising a very large energy utility in the Nordics and what we're trying to do with Openshift and Kubernetes is actually to shift loads between different data centers based on power availability. So if you have wind and solar power, you know that you only get energy when the wind is blowing so you really need to be able to match that load of the data center with the actually energy production which is quite challenging to be honest. >> Max you have different take on 'Follow-the-sun' that we used to talk about in IT I'm guessing, yes? >> Yes >> Take us inside a little bit, the sustainability is really interesting and how some of the power, you know, usage and heat and everything and maybe you can explain that a little bit before we get into the data. >> Of course, so generally how we got to a sustainable data center source was that in the Nordics you see a big growth of data centers in general so all the hyperscalers: Google, Microsoft, AWS. They are all coming to build data centers in Nordics. It's cold, power is cheap, you have lots of renewable energy available and we started to think 'Okay, but they have two problems essentially.' They generate a lot of heat, which is just emitted into the atmosphere so it's wasted, and the second problem is that they want 100% reliable power and reliable power you only get from nuclear, you get from gas, coal fire power plants not from renewables. So we looked into this, and we started to think about okay can we maybe get the heat out? Can we extract the heat from a data center and inject it into district heating grids and actually heat homes? With a hyperscale data center from Microsoft, 300 megawatts you can heat about 150,000 homes, that's quite significant. >> Yeah and how are you doing that? I mean I talked to a company once that was like 'Oh well we're going to, you know, we'll just distribute the servers different places and there will be ambient heat off of it.' But you're extracting the heat and sharing it. Explain that a little bit more. >> So most existing data center projects, they extract the heat out of the air but that's really inefficient. You get to about 100 degrees Fahrenheit which is not uh high quality heat. So what we want is 140 degrees Fahrenheit, about 60 degrees celsius, which means that we have to use liquid. So we have to use water in this case and we use a cooling system that is quite ironic from a start up in Germany called Cloud & Heat that uses hot water to cool servers. So the water really flows at a very very high speed through the data center and on it's way picks up a very low amount of temperature and we get out the temperature, we get out the water at 140 degrees Fahrenheit and we put it in at 120 degrees Fahrenheit. So it's quite, not a big difference, but it flows at a very high speed. >> So it makes it work? Makes the numbers work. >> Exactly. And so what's the home count again you mentioned one hyperscale data center, like a Microsoft data center powers heat for how many homes? >> About 150,000 homes from 300 megawatts worth of data center. >> And you guys put this into a grid so that's, does the location of the homes need to be nearby, is there a co-location kind of map or? >> Yeah actually, in order to do this we have to move data centers closer to cities. But luckily, data centers actually want to be closer to cities because your closer to peering points and one of the reasons why they usually can't come closer to cities is because power is not available near a city. So we um try, we can give them both. Right, they can come closer to the city and we can give them power, and we get the heat in return. So, so everybody wins. >> Yeah so I mean, a lot of the discussion we've had is the interaction between software and my data center infrastructure. You've got a story of software, with you know, actual like city underneath the infrastructure. Maybe you got to help explain how that was built out, what tools you're using and walk us through this all. >> So we originally started with Openstack, which was the first test because we need, in order to do this heat extraction we need to also steer really the software, the workloads that run on the data center because you know a chip only gets hot when the server actually does something so we really had to figure this out. We started with Openstack and then we started looking into load shifting which immediately brought us to Kubernetes and then Openshift because you can use the internal scheduler to basically force loads across different locations. We connect it to our energy systems, to our forecasting systems and to our heat load management systems and then basically push workloads around. Right now we have two sites where we test this and it's not as easy as it sounds. And we basically want to move workloads, concentrate them where we want, we have heat. So um yeah, Redhat is helping us a lot doing this but still it's not that easy. >> Yeah yeah, it's interesting. You know, I think back you know, virtualization was about you know, how can we drive some utilization and get some out? You really want to you know, concentrate and run things hot. >> Yeah, exactly. >> Quite inter- Alright tell us about your involvement in this ecosystem, you know, what brings you to the show this week, what do you get out of coming to a show like this? >> Yeah, actually I came because Redhat invited us to talk at the Openshift gathering at the beginning of the conference. And generally, we don't really have a commercial interest in making data centers or data infrastructure sustainable, we, we don't gain anything from that, but we believe it's necessary. If you look at the growth curve of data centers you can really see that they will consume more and more power, and then the power they consume is not compatible with renewable energy. So we are hoping that we can influence people and we come here to tell people our story and we actually get great feedback from most of the nerds. >> Well it's a great story. It's one of those things where you're starting to see data centers trying to solve these problems. It's great with the renewable energy, having that kind of success story is really huge. Um, You mentioned that data centers want to be close to cities. I got to ask the question, in Europe, well you've lived around a lot of places. Is there a more cloud city oriented, like is it London, you got Paris, you got... I know Amazon's got data centers in Ireland. Is there certain cities that are more CloudNative culture? How would you break down the affinity towards CloudNative? If you had to map Europe, which major countries and cities would you think are advanced, cloud thinking vs. tire kickers or you know, people just kind of just trying it? >> In Europe there is a region called the FLAP region, that's Frankfurt, London, Amsterdam and Paris. Those are where you have the highest concentration of data centers, but it terms of CloudNative adoption, I would say that probably in the UK you have the most adoption rates and in the Netherlands. Germany is always, I am German so I can say this, we are always a bit behind in terms of cloud technology because we're a bit scared and we don't know- >> You'll watch everyone test it out and then you guys will make it go faster. (john laughs) >> Maybe, maybe, maybe a bit more efficient but uh, generally I think the cloud adoption rate in Germany is the lowest and the UK and the Netherlands is the highest I would say, yeah. >> Awesome, well thanks so much. Congratulations on your success, we'll keep following you and when we're in Europe we're going to come by and say hello. Thanks for coming and sharing the stories. The CUBE, breaking down all the action at KubeCon, CloudNativeCon. I'm John with Stu Miniman. Day 2, we got three days of wall to wall coverage. Thanks for watching. (upbeat techno music)

>> Live from Seattle, Washington it's the CUBE covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Hey, welcome back, everyone. We are here live with CUBE coverage at KubeCon, CloudNativeCon 2018 in Seattle. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman your hosts all week, three days of coverage. We're in day two. 8,000 attendees, up from 4,000, spanning to China, in Europe, everywhere, the CNCF is expanding. The Linux Foundation, and the ecosystems expanding, we're here with Dan Kohn who's the executive director of the CNCF. Dan, great to see you. I know you work hard. (laughs) I see you out in China. You've done the work. You guys and the team have taken this hockey stick as it's described on the Twittersphere, really up and to the right, you've doubled, it's almost like Moore's law for attendance. (laughs) Doubling every six months. It's really a testament of how it's structured, how you guys are managing it, the balances that you go through. So congratulations. >> So thank you very much, and I'm thrilled that you guys have been with us through that whole ride, that we met here in Seattle two years ago at the first KubeCon we ran with 1,000 attendees. And here we are eight times higher two years later. But I absolutely do need to say it is the community that's growing, and we try and organize them a little bit and harness some of that excitement and energy and then there is a ton of logistics and effort that it takes to go from 28 members to 349 and to put on an event like this, but we do have an amazing team at the Linux Foundation and this is absolutely an all hands on deck where the entire events team is out here and working really hard. >> You guys are smart, you know what you're doing, and you have the right tone and posture, but you set it up right, so it's end user driven, it's open-source community as the core of the event, and you're seeing end users that have contributed, they're now consuming, you have vendors coming in, but you set the nice playbook up, and the downstream benefits of that open-source core has impacted IT, developers, average developers, and this is the magic. And you guys don't take too many hard stands on things, you take a good enough stand on the enablement piece of it. This is a critical piece. Explain the rationale because I think this is a success formula. You don't go too far and say, here's the CNCF stack. >> Right. >> You pull back a little bit on that and let the ecosystem enable it. Talk about that rationale because I think this is an important point. >> Sure and I would say that one of the huge advantages that CNCF has had is that we came later after a lot of other projects. So our parent, the Linux Foundation, has been around for 15 years. We've been able to leverage all of their expertise. We've looked at some of the mistakes that OpenStack, and Apache, and IETF, and other giants who came before us did, and our aspiration has always been to make entirely new mistakes rather than to replicate the old ones. But as you mentioned end user is a key focus, so when you look at our community, how CNCF is set up, we have a governing board that's mainly vendors, it does have developer and other reps on it. We have our technical oversight committee of these nine experts, kind of like our supreme court, and then we have this end user community that is feeding requirements and feedback back to the other group. >> I want to ask you about the structure, and I think this is important because you guys have a great governance model, but you have this concept of graduation. You have Kubernetes, and it's really solid, people are very happy with it, and there's always debates in open-source as you know, but there's a concept of graduating. Anyone can have projects, and explain that dynamic. 'Cause that's, I've heard people say, oh that's part of the CNCF, and well it hasn't graduated, but it's a project. It's important as a laddering there, explain that concept. I think this is important for people to understand that you're open, but there's kind of a model of graduation. What does it mean? >> Sure and it, people have said, oh you mean they've graduated, so they've left now, right? Like the kids leaving the home. And it's definitely not that model. Kubernetes is still very much part of CNCF. We're happy to do it. But we think that one of CNCF's functions is as a signaling and a marketing to enterprise users. And we like the cliche of crossing the chasm where we talk about 2018 was really the year that Kubernetes crossed the chasm. Went from as early adopters who'd been using it for years and were thrilled with it but they actually jump over now to the early majority. I will say though that the late majority, the laggards, the skeptics, they're not using these technologies yet. We still have a ton of opportunity for years to come on that. So we say the graduated projects, which today is not just Kubernetes but also Prometheus and Envoy. Those are the ones that are suitable for really any enterprise company, and that they should feel confident these are very mature, serious technologies for companies of all size. The majority of our projects are incubating. Those are great projects, technically capable, companies should absolutely use them if the use case fits, but they're less mature. And then we have this other category of the Sandbox, 11 projects in there, and we say look, these are incredibly promising. If you are technical enough and you have the use cases, you absolutely should consider it, but they are less mature. And then our hope is to help the projects move along that graduation phase. >> And that's how companies start. Bloomberg's plan, I thinking jumping into Sandbox, they'll start getting some code in there that'll attract some people, they get their code, they don't have to come back after the fact and join in. So you have the Sandbox, you've got projects, you've got graduation, so. >> Now Bloomberg's a little bit unusual, and I like them as an example where they have, I don't know if they mentioned this, but almost a philosophy not to spend money on software. And of course that's great. All of our projects are free and open-source, and they're willing to spend money on people, and they hire a spectacular group of engineers, and then they support everything in-house. But in reality, the vast majority of end users are very happy to work with the vendor, including a lot of our members, and pay for some of that support. And so a Bloomberg can be a little bit more adventurous than many, I think. >> Dan, I wonder if you can provide a little bit of context. I hear some people look at really kind of the conformance and certification that the CNCF does. And I think in many ways learn from the mistakes of some of the things we've done in the past because they'll see there's so many companies, it's like, well there's too many distributions. Maybe you could help explain the difference between a distribution-- >> Sure. >> And what's supported and how that makes sense. >> And I think when you look back at, and we just had, CNCF just had our three-year birthday this week, we have a little birthday cake on Twitter and everything. But if you look at all the activities we've been involved in over those three years, KubeCon, CloudNativeCon, we have a service provider program, we've done a lot of marketing, helping projects, I think it's the certification and the software conformance is the single thing that we've had done that's had the biggest impact on the community. And the idea here is that we wanted a way for individual companies to be able to make changes to Kubernetes because they all want to, but to still have confidence that you could take the same workload and move it between the different public clouds, between the different enterprise distros or just vanilla Kubernetes that you download or different installers out there. And so the solution was an open-source software conformance project that anyone can download these tasks and run them, and then a process where people upload the test results and say, yes my implementation is still conformant. I've made these changes, but I haven't broken anything. And we really have some amazing cases of our members, some of our biggest members, who had turned off APIs, maybe in their public cloud for good reasons. They said, oh this doesn't apply or we don't, but that's exactly the kind of thing that can cause incompatibility. >> Yeah, I mean that's critically important, and the other thing that is, what I haven't heard, is there's so many projects here. And we go to the Amazon show and it's like, I'm overwhelmed and I don't know what to do, and I can't keep up with everything. I'm actually surprised I don't hear that here because there are pockets, and this is multiple communities, not like a single monolithic community, so you've got, you know Envoy has their own little separate show and Operators has a thing on Friday that they're doing, and there's the Helm community and sometimes I'm putting many of the pieces together, but oftentimes I'm taking just a couple of the pieces. How do you manage this loosely coupled, it's like distributed architecture. >> Loosely coupled is a key phrase. I think the big advantage we have is our anchor tenant of Kubernetes has its own gravitational field. And so from a compatibility standpoint, we have this, excuse me, certification program for Kubernetes and then all of the other projects essentially ensure they're orbiting around and they ensure that they're compatible with Kubernetes, that also ensures they're compatible with each other. Now it's definitely the case that our projects are used beyond just Kubernetes. We were thrilled with Amazon's announcement two weeks ago of commercial support for Envoy and talking about how one of the things they loved about Envoy is that is doesn't just work on Kubernetes, they can use it on their proprietary ECS platform on their regular EC2 environment as well. And that's true for almost all of our projects. Prometheus is used in Mesos, is used in Docker Swarm, is used in VMs, but I do think that having so much traction and momentum around Kubernetes just is a forcing function for the whole community to come together and stay compatible. >> Well you guys did a great job. That happened last year. It's really to me is an example of a historic moment in the computer industry because this is a modern version of enabling technology that's going to enable a lot of value creation, a lot of wealth creation, a lot of customer, and it's all in a new way, so I think you guys really cracked the code on that and continued success. You've obviously had China going gangbusters, you're expanding, China by the way is one of the largest areas we've reported on Siliconangle.com and the CUBE in the past. China has emerged as one of the largest contributors and consumers of open-source given the rise of all the action going on in China. >> And we've been thrilled to see that, and I mean there was just the example yesterday where etcd is now the newest project, the newest incubating project in CNCF, and the co-creator of that and really the lead maintainer for it left CoreOS when it was acquired by Red Hat and is now with Alibaba. And he's originally from China. He is helping Alibaba just who's a platinum member of CNCF, who's been offering a certified Kubernetes service, but they're now looking at how they can move much more of their internal workloads over to it. JD.com has 25,000 servers. That's the second biggest retailer in China. >> It's a constituent. >> I was there six times last year. >> I know you were. >> I ran into you once in a hotel lobby. (laughing) >> What are you doing in China? It's huge, we're here. This is a big dynamic. This is new. I mean this is a big force and function. >> And to have so much energy, and I do also want to really emphasize the two-way street, that it's not just Chinese companies adopting these technologies that started in the US. >> They're contributing. >> We were thrilled a month ago to have Harbor come in as an incubating project and that started in China and is now being used across the world. >> Dan, 2019, you've got three shows again, Barcelona, Shanghai, and San Diego. >> Exactly. >> Of course the numbers are going to be up and to the right, but what else should we be looking for? >> So I think the two, so definitely China, we're going to continue doing it there, we continue to be relations serverless, we're thrilled with the progress of our serverless working group. They have this new cloud event spec, we have all of the different major clouds participating in it. The third area that I think you're going to see us that is somewhat new is looking at telcos. And our vision is that you can take a lot, most networking code today is done in virtual machines called virtual network functions. We think those should evolve to become cloud native network functions. The same networking code running in containers on Kubernetes. And so this is actually going to be our first time with a booth at Mobile World Congress in Barcelona in February. And we're going to be talking about-- >> Makes a lot of sense. IOT, over the top, a lot of enablement there. Makes inefficiencies in that inefficient stacks. >> Yeah, and on the edge as well. >> Dan, thanks for coming out, I appreciate it. Again, you've done the work, hard work, and continue it, great success, congratulations. I know it's early days still but. >> I hope it is. At some date Kubernetes is going to plateau. But it really doesn't feel like it'll be 2019. >> Yeah, it definitely is not boring. (laughing) Even though we had much more, Dan. >> Dan Kohn, executive director of the CNCF. Here inside the CUBE, breaking it all down, again, another successful show. Just the growth, this is the tsunami, it's a rise of Kubernetes and the ecosystem around it, creating values, the CUBE coverage, live here in Seattle. I'll be back with more coverage after this short break. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman. Be right back. (upbeat music)

>> Live from Seattle, Washington, it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon, and CloudNativeCon North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the CloudNative Computing Foundation, and the Antigo System Partners. >> Hey, welcome back everyone live here in Seattle for the theCUBE's coverage of KubeCon and CloundNativeCon 2018. I'm John Furrier, theCUBE with Stu Miniman, breaking down all the action. Three days of coverage, we're in day two. A lot of action at Open-source. 8,000 attendees, up from 4,000 North America, they were in China, they were all over Europe. The community's growing in a massive way. We had two great guests from Red Hat, all making it happen, part of the community. We've got Diane Mueller, whose theCUBE alumni director of community development, many times on theCUBE, good to see you, and Rob Szumski, principal product manager, both at Red Hat. Guys, thanks for coming on. Great to see you again. >> Yeah, glad to be here. - Great to be here. >> So the world's changing a lot, and there was some news recently around Red Hat. I can't remember what it was. Recently, something big news, but you guys have been big players in Open-source for years. We always cover it, we always wax on about the origination of it and how the evolution, but the CloudNative piece has gotten so real, and your role in it particularly, we've had many conversations, going maybe back to the OpenStack days of how OpenShift was developing, then the bet on Kubernetes that you made, Core OS acquisition, those two things I think, to me, at least from my perspective, really catalyzed a lot of things at the right time, right? So, from there, just a lot of things has just been happening really in a good way. Big tail wind for you guys, CloudNative app developers are using Open-source, CI/CD pipeline, and then also policy based up under the hood, completely big shift in moving the game down the field. So big congratulations first of all. But what's new? What's the update? >> The update is Operators. I think the next big thing that we are really focusing on, and that's a game changer for all the second day operations type things, and we'll make Rob talk about it in detail, is the rise of Kubernetes' Operators. It's not a scary thing, it's not like terminator day, or anything like that, but it is really the thing that helps us make the service catalogs, the Kubernetes marketplaces really accessible to all of the data bases as a service, and all of the other things, and takes out some of the complexity of delivering applications and database  as a Service to anybody running Kubernetes anywhere. >> Take a minute to explain Operator, real quick, and then we can jump into it, because I think this is a fundamental trend, that we're seeing. Developer trend is pretty obvious, it's been that word for awhile, CloudScale, ML, machine learning, and all the goodness around application development, but the Operator side of it has been an IT thing. But now you guys have a different, a new approach that's winning. What is it? What is Operator? >> Well, it's Kubernetes that has the approach, and I'll let you-- >> Yeah, so it's basically like the rise of containers was great, because you could take a single container and package an application and give to somebody, and know that they can run it successfully. And Operator does that for a distributed system in the exact same way. So you're using all the Kubernetes primitives, so you're not reinventing service discovery, and seeker management, and all that. And you can give somebody an entire Kafka stack, or a machine learning stack, or whatever it is, these very complex distributed systems, and have them run it without having to be an expert. They need to know Kafka at a high level, but not exactly all the underpinnings of it, because that's all baked in the software. >> And the benefit and the impact of the organization is what? >> And just to clarify, so this was added in, I believe Kubernetes is like 1.7, it's something that's in there, it's not something Red Hat specific- >> Yeah, it's like-- >> So you're extending Kubernetes so that you have a custom resource definition, which is an extensible mechanism for saying, hey, I've got a deployment or a staple set, but what if I want to have a new object called a MongoDB? That knows how to deploy, and manage, and upgrade MongoDB. So that's the extension mechanism that we're using. >> Yeah, so you got to think, there's certain applications that this is going to make, just a lot easier how I manage them, deploy them, things like that. Any specific examples you want to share as to-- >> All the clustered data bases. >> There's a lot of the application side in this model have been very excited about this. >> So its all the vendors and partners that want a hybrid Cloud story, just targeting Kubernetes, and we're using Kubernetes under the hood, and then everybody wants to run like a staple data base tier, whether that's Mongo and Couchbase, and Cassandra, whatever. And these are all distributed systems. >> Alright, so I want you to just perch, you said a hybrid Cloud. Explain that model, because there's just something in general discussion that is hybrid or multi means I'm running multiple places, I'm not necessarily stretching an application, but I have instances there, just want to make sure we're on the same page. >> So this would be more the compatibility that you're programming against when you're building an operator, is Kubernetes. It's not a Cloud offering, it's not OpenShift, so you're just targeting Kubernetes, and so you can run MongoDB on prem, in the Cloud, and have it function the exact same, by standing up one of these Operators. And then if that Operator has higher level constructs for how to do multi-cluster aware data rebalancing, you can take advantage of that too. >> And the Open-source status of this product is what? >> It's all Open-source, it's all in the github repos, there's a Google group for Operator framework, that anyone can come and participate in. We hold SIG meetings on the third Friday of every month, 9 a.m. Pacific Time, and it's a completely Open-source project. There's a whole framework around it, so there's the Operator SDK, the Operator Lifecycle Management, and Operator metering, all the tooling there to help people build and manage these Operators, and it's all being built out there in the open with the community's support and feedback loops. >> What's the feedback? What's the top feedback you guys are getting right now? Seeing right now? >> I have to say, this is really, like I've been hanging out with you guys like for the past three, four months on this topic, trying to get my head around it and everything, and we came here and we had two sessions, an intro session and a deep dive session, intro yesterday, deep dive today. Today's deep dive, the room was about 250 people, and they're were people outside of it-- >> Security guards blocking people from coming in. >> Nobody could come in and it's like, it's insane. It's like, everybody needs these things, and everybody wants to figure out that, and when you ask people in the room whose building one, half the room raises their hands. It's just crazy. This thing crept up on us really, maybe not on Core OS, okay, it crept up on me very quickly, and it's very rapid adoption. We have a Kubernetes Operators workshop on Friday, so not only do we have pre-conference days of like OpenShift Cons that are huge now, but now we're starting to book end, CNCF events and put on other things, just because, and that, we had 100 seats that we were hoping we would fill, and it sold out in like minutes once it got in there, and there's a waiting list of like 300 people. It is like one of, aside from Knative, and all the other wonderful hot things too, it is one of the most interesting developments I think right now. >> Thirst for the content. Would it impact? >> Yeah, and you can get all of the documentation is out there now, and people are already building them. We have a list of 50 community Operators. It's just, it's phenomenal how quickly it's growing. >> You know, Diane and Rob, it's funny because you know, we do so many of these theCUBE interviews, and this is our 10th year doing theCUBE coming up, and I remember the conversations going back in the OpenStack days, we would ask questions like, if you had a magic wand, what would you like, hope to have happened, right? And you know, those are parts of the evolution, where it's like, it's aspirational, things are being built. It seems now with Kubernetes, it's almost like, wait a minute, it's actually, this is like the goodness is so compelling, above and below Kubernetes that it's almost like uncomprehendible. You think about, oh this is actually happening. Finally the kinds of steady state kind of operational things that have been a pain in the butt for years-- >> Yeah, the toil, it's gone, for the most part. >> Yeah. >> So Rob, I've been having a lot of just thinking back to, you're employee number two at Core OS, when I first talked to Core OS, it was, we're going to build all of these individual tools, and we're going to Open-source them, and it's going to be good. We watched this just rising ecosystem and the CNCF, and it feels like what's nice and what's different that I see, compared to some previous things, is it's not one product or even a small group of companies. It's, I have this tool kit, and some of them work together, but many of them are independently used. We've talked to your peers earlier about it, etCD. etCD is totally stand alone, doesn't need to be Kubernetes. What have you seen, if you go back to that original vision, would Core OS just been, part of this whole ecosystem, and done it, if this was available, and has this delivering on a promise that your team had hoped to work on? >> Yeah, so we've always filled in where we see gaps, and so something like etCD, the concept is not new, and it comes from Google, and they have a system internally, and as Brandon got up on stage and said, we needed that coordinate, reboot, to grow out, to cluster of machines. It didn't exist so we had to build it. Same thing with how we wanted to manage Linux. There was no distro that even resembled what we were doing. Wanted to do automatic upgrades, people thought that was crazy, so we had to go build it. And so, but we always adopted the best of breed technology, when it existed. In our early bet Kubernetes, we just saw, this is the thing, and went for it. I don't even remember what version, but it was months and months before it was zero point oh, or one point oh, so it was, we've been doing it forever. And you just see the right thing, and it's the little nugget that you need, and if you don't see it, then you build it. >> What are you surprised about Rob, in terms of the ecosystem now, you mentioned some goodness is happening, still a lot more to do, visibility around value creation, you're starting to see spots where value can be created in the ecosystem, which is great. Still more work areas, but what's surprising you? What do you see as opportunities, challenges? Your thoughts, because this vision of ease of use and programmability, is happening, right? So there's still more work to do. What's your vision there? What's your thoughts? >> I mean, I think self service is key, so this is like the rise of the Cloud comes from self service for developers, and Kubernetes gives you the right abstraction, where self service for VM's, like OpenStack, which is not quite at the level of what you want. You don't want a VM, you actually wanted a place to deploy an application, you wanted load balancing, you wanted service discovery, you didn't want like a bare Ubuntu VM, and so Kubernetes raises you up to where you're productive, and then it's about building stuff on top. But what's interesting, in the space is, we're still kind of competing on Kubernetes installers, and stuff like that, so we're not even really into like the phase where people are being super productive on the platform, other than these leading companies. So I think we'll democratize that, and we'll have a whole new landscape. >> And so 2019 you see as what being a key theme for Kubernetes? >> I think it'll be Core stuff built on top, like all the serverless frameworks, a bunch of container natives storage solutions, solving some of these problems that folks are reaching out to external machine learning, but bringing that onto the cluster, GPU support, that type of stuff. It's all about the workloads. >> And tradition end users, you have a huge install base, with Red Hat, well documented, as the end users start coming in and looking at CloudNative, and doing a reimagine of their environment, whether it's IT span, IT investments, to have a run their coding and the deployments. It's going to change. 2019's going to have an impact on what I call mainstream enterprise, for lack of a better description. What's the impact of those guys, 'cause now, they now have head room, they can do more, what's the main stream enterprise look like right now with the impact of Kubernetes? >> I think they're going to start deploying applications and get like lower the time to business value, much, much lower. And I was just talking to a customer, and they ordered bare metal machines like a year ago, and they're still not racked and in the data center. And so people are still getting over that type of stuff, but once you have like a shared Kubernetes layer, you can onboard teams like crazy. I mean, name spaces are free, quote, unquote, and you can get 35 engineering teams on a Kubernetes cluster super easy. >> So they can ramp up in development teams basically, as they bring value in-house, versus outsourcing everything. They start getting development teams, this is where the action is. >> I think you're also going to see the rise of those end users contributing back things, to the Kubernetes community and as Lyft, and Uber, and everybody are great examples of that. Uber with Jaeger, and Lyft is, we were just in the Operators thing, and they raised their hand that they are about to Open-source it, a few Operators that they're building and stuff, and you're just going to see people that you didn't normally see. Often these large foundation driven things are vendor driven, but I think what you see here, is the end user community is now embracing the Open-source, is getting the legal teams there, allowing them to share their things, because one, they get more people to maintain them, and more people working on them, but it's really I think the rise of the end user we'll see, as they start participating more and more in here. And that's the promise of Open-source. >> And that's where CNCF really made it's bones. It wasn't really vendor led per se, it was really end users, the guys building out their stuff for the first time. You see Lyft for instance, great example, you guys did a Core OS, this is like the new generational model. Final question before we break. I want to get this out there. Get a plug in for Red Hat. What are you guys, what's the focus for the show? What's the news? What's the big story for Red Hat here at KubeCon this year? >> I think it's Operators, that's what we're here talking about. It's a really big push to once again get smarter workloads onto the cluster. We've got a really great hybrid story, we've got a really great over the air upgrade story that we're bringing from some of the Core OS technology, and then the next thing is, once it's easy to run 35 clusters, we need a bunch of workloads to put on there. And so we want to save folks from the toil of running all those workloads as well, just like we did at the cluster level. >> Awesome. >> Well put. I couldn't add more. One of the things that Core OS did, you hit the nail on the head earlier, is when there was something missing, they helped us build it, and with the Operator SDK, and the Lifecycle Management, and the metering, and whatever else the tooling is, they have really been inspirational inside of Red Hat. And so they filled a number of gaps, and it's just been all Operators all the time right now. >> It's great when a plan comes together. You guys got a great tail wind. Congratulations on all the success, and it's just the beginning of the wave. It's theCUBE, covering the wave of innovation here at KubeCon CloudNativeCon 2018, we'll be back with more live coverage. Day two of Three days of Kube Coverage. We'll be right back. (upbeat music)

>> Live from Seattle, Washington, it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon and Cloud Native Con North America 2018 brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and it's ecosystem partners. >> Hey welcome back everyone, we are live here in Seattle. It's theCUBE's coverage of KubeCon, Cloud Native Con, a part of CNCF, Cloud Native Computing Foundation, the rise of Kubernetes, this is what the show is all about. Three days of wall to wall coverage. We've been there from the beginning covering this KubeCon effort from the beginning. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman, we're here to analyze and break down the event with our guest analyst for the segment, Steve Herrod, CUBE alumni, he was there the first day we ever did theCUBE in 2010. He's been a good friend of theCUBE. Now he's a venture capitalist, managing director at General Catalyst, a premiere VC in the industry. Steve, great to see you. >> Good to be here. >> Thanks for coming on. >> Feels like the early days of some of the other conferences, too, doesn't it? >> It feels like AWS, you know seven/eight years ago where it tips over, there's a tipping point. We see that doubling, so you know, it's kind of that tipping point where there's more demand for theCUBE and we can fill it so there's great content but it's a bigger picture, right? And I want to break through that, I want to get your thoughts and let's have a shared conversation around what's really going on here. You're talking about a disruption in the industry of cloud computing. You got Amazon, just a freight train just taking all the beach, the waves coming in and this is an opportunity, this is my opinion, for the industry to kind of say, hey, it's a multi cloud world so you're not going to take all of it. You got Google, you got Microsoft, you got start ups. This is a way to create an opensource way to fill the gap. Your thoughts? You agree? >> I totally agree and I think what's interesting, this conference does not have a corporate, at least an explicit corporate sponsor. It has four or five that are all trying to have their play in it. Microsoft's not one of them, which is sort of interesting. But it was, I think, a very bold thing this year to have this big of a venue and invite this many people and then hope that you're going to get the sponsorships and all the other stuff that follows. >> In Seattle. >> In Seattle. Yeah, our weather is a little bit-- >> It's very meta. (laughing) >> Interesting. But, just to your point, I do think this is really interesting because it is more open than a lot of these conferences where people are coming together. Both open source but also so much focus on how do you do functions in a way that works across places, how do you service meshes. Like everything is, it's both good and bad because there's so many choices that people are being seen right now. >> You were the CTO of VMware, Stu you worked in the CTO office at EMC back in the day, you're seeing a systems kind of vibe going on in cloud and you got application renaissance, kind of almost like the app server days, think WebSphere or whatever, that movement in the 90's and 2000's, that kind of grew quickly, all kind of being modernized. So you have cloud scale. >> Mm-hmm. >> AI has been around for a long time but because of the cloud, there's a renaissance. Video's been around for a long time but because of the cloud, things like theCUBE is happening. So the cloud is enabling a rebirth of a lot of things. >> Mm-hmm. >> And enabling a lot of new things, how do you guys view that systems view, application renaissance? Jassy talks about a reinvent as a new kind of persona developing. >> Mm-hmm. >> As a buyer and IT investments are changing, you're making start up investments, it's crazy. >> Yep. >> What do you think? >> Yeah, so first of all John, I like what you're saying about that systems view because too often we would kind of focus on a specific tool. So virtualization was great, but, you know, big thing, I took a bunch of servers and made it smaller servers but I took the same old application and I shoved it in there, and I left it running for another five or 10 years when I probably should have modernized it. Today, you know we just had Cheryl on talking about the ecosystem and customers and what I want to focus on is how the users get value. What are building on top of this? >> Right. >> Not the next cool thing to build, but how do I run my business? How do I do cool things with genomics? How do I improve healthcare? And in many ways we're seeing some of these top down things. I mean what's gotten me so excited about things like serverless and been really poking and teasing at how that fits in with this ecosystem is it's not just about a way to kind of turn the crank on making things a little bit more efficient or, you know, I can manage more machines with fewer people, but you know it moves up things and for someone like myself, a networking guy with an infrastructure background? >> Right. >> It's a little out of my comfort zone and that's okay. You know we talked to Lou Tucker, Lou's really excited about where AI's going and what's there, so I think we're in a real renaissance here and it's a big inflection point. >> Well I think to your point, what's interesting, whenever I do a teacher course to a college or when I'm talking to start ups or even in the old days it's really easy to forget that infrastructure is not a thing in it's own right. It's solely there to enable applications and to enable other things and so whenever you get really deep in the weeds on this is a new security model for this type of container or this, it's important and you're thinking about the best way to do it but, really you're right, you have to abstract it out to can I ship value faster? Can I save customers money? Can I do something safer? You really have to think about it in that context. And there's so much activity here you have to really make sure you're thinking about where it all fits together. >> And you know, the computer science conversations changes, too. The nature of what is computer science is evolving. I want to get to that in the next kind of discussion point but I want to just, Steve, ask you, you were on the VMware side when VMware kind of entered in with virtualization. It was a desktop, it was an app, it was like you loaded it on a machine and then that ended up transforming a massive industry and so a lot of people compare what VMware did in it's growth and it's impact but saying the cloud has got certainly more orders of magnitude, you mentioned security. >> Mm-hmm. >> Where's the VMware moment in this cloud transformation impact? Your thoughts there, just because you've been on both sides, one as a driver, CTO at VMware and now as an investor. Where do you see cloud-- >> Yeah, I kind of thought of it as two different angles. One is, appealing to developers and then that taking you all the way through operations which is, I mean that is, dev ops is sort of looking at that. VMware's first product was a workstation product that made developers have a bunch of environments right in front of them and we always had a vision for getting into the operations center but we knew we had to kind of come up through that path and I think likewise, a lot of this tooling that we see here is developer first and it's them saying, "I like this tool "and I can make my job be more enjoyable this way." But what you're really seeing, especially at this one is, how do you start in the developer tools and then not be detested by developers but then actually be paid for it by the operations side. So if you look at the type of vendors that are here? You start having venture capitalists here. You have a few people wearing suits here. It is about making this more enterprisey, more production ready and that's kind of the natural progression of any major impact like this. >> And Heptio, certainly Stu was reporting earlier, the number has been better than the filing of VMware. You know, a half a billion dollar acquisition for talent and a position in the marketplace. There's liquidity so there's investment opportunities. We talked to Jerry Chan about this at AWS, I want to get your thoughts, how is the investment thesis going on because what are you investing in? The notion of a stack, has kind of transformed into Lego blocks and services. >> Yep. >> So the notion of a stack is kind of changing although I've heard people say the, "Kubernetes stack." I'm like, well, what does that mean? (laughing) >> Which one? Yeah. >> So there's a lot of kind of stack derivatives. >> Mm-hmm. >> But how do you invest in this? What are you looking for? Where is the value? >> Yep. >> Where are sniffing out the deals? Where's the white spaces? And where should entrepreneurs go? >> Yeah, and I have several companies presenting here so I've certainly done some investments around this space, but I focus on a few things very specifically. I've been around this a little while. I really like to think about not tools that go to the new, hot new companies. I really try to think about what is more mainstream company going to adopt? And that usually means a few things. It has to have enterprise capabilities. It has to fit into the rest of the things. But I look at like how are you going to digest this with your other tools and the other processes that you have in place? If it's a security solution, I look at, I don't want really something that only protects the brave new world, I want it to fit in somehow with security policies and other things that are happening. >> So mainstream adoption? IT kind of impact? >> Yeah, just like a tool that actually works across environments and lets you go from here to there. You all have talked to Illumio several times? >> Yeah. >> They're trying to do micro segmentation for physical machines all the way through containers. The other thing I'm keeping a close eye on is, this is chaos, in terms of the number of start ups doing very specific point solutions and you have to really think about how does that grow into a big enough chunk of a budget or a big enough problem. So every single time I make an investment, I ask how does this do something 10 times better than something else and is that important to the company? And that's really hard to answer sometimes. >> Steve, and what's your take on the kind of opensource, open core, business model today? To be honest, I go around, I talked to some of the founders there, and everybody wants to contribute to opensource but maybe I don't want to build a business around it, because actually monetizing that is really tough. Is it just, I look to get acquired by one of the big players here? Or can I actually build a business with opensource at it's core? >> That's literally the billion dollar question. >> Yeah. >> But I do think, like on the positive side, the number of exits or big things recently with Magento, with Cloudera doing great, with, obviously, Red Hat, but we've seen, and Neilsoft, like a lot of big acquisitions and some good IPOs. But on the flip side, you definitely have to think about it differently now. There's a growing license that is very careful about allowing clouds to host your opensource project without contributing back. Hopefully that'll allow this hosted model to play out. I personally, I certainly look to opensource. You can see what's going on from traction but when you see it as a great lead generation engine which it often is for folks, I think that's a really healthy way to avoid spending a bunch of marketing money. >> Yeah, it's been fun. A lot of different shows we go to. Love your analysis, thanks for coming on, appreciate it. Just in general, as not a VC, but as a tech person and in the industry, I want to ask you and Stu what wave are we on? Obviously Kubernetes is now kind of front and center but we've still got cloud native. Is it the cloud? You got IoT and Amazon ARM, but we saw a lot of conversations around Edge. They had some interesting announcements around satellite telemetry coming in to regions. So you got Google, you got Microsoft, you got the big players. Is it the rich get richer? Is there going to be a new second tier? Cloud service provider? Where is this going? How is it going to reshape the industry? I mean, just big picture, what's your thoughts? >> Well, this is literally what I get paid to do is figure out where things are headed. I'd say, just at a top level, this is a super fun time to be in this lower level of the stack. You mentioned already AI gets, sort of AI washing goes on a lot right now but the very core of it is literally changing every application in interesting ways. And for me, I was a former hardware designer. The fact that you can now build and have really cool new hardware that's accelerating this stuff is really exciting. You saw Amazon's announcements, not only an ARM based server but Inferentia chips. Google has been doing this with TPUs-- >> Hundred gig networking in there, like, you know, high speed-- >> It is impressive. >> Cluster configurations, it's amazing stuff. >> So I love the fact that we can actually have very big innovation at each stage of the stack and it's because the combination of every company becoming an app, digital company coupled with the power of AI to transform things means you need dev ops to faster, you need these platforms that let you do more self service. And then I sprinkle on top of that is just the ridiculous demand for high quality engineers and if you don't give them an environment where they feel productive, they're just not going to stay at your company. And so all the mix comes together. I don't think they're going to be, there'll be some giant companies that already are, but I think the ability to create a new company that becomes large quickly or becomes small quickly if you screw up is bigger than ever. >> Yeah, I think it's total acceleration. >> Everything's faster. >> Values accelerated but it's also failure, too, right? >> Exactly, everything is accelerated. >> You have an option to abandon in you NPV calculations and IRRS (laughing) in your portfolio. >> Exactly, no it's-- >> The word pivot comes to mind. >> Everything is faster, that's the right way to think about it. >> Stu what's your take on this? >> Yeah, so we're at an interesting point in the industry. It's a bit of a paradox. On the one hand, the challenge of our time, we've been talking on theCUBE since the early days, John, is it's about distributed architectures and we're decomposing all of the pieces. Even Kubernetes itself, we're going to talk about how it's decomposing. On the other hand, everything is consolidating. >> That's right. >> I've seen more vertical stack integration from the chip and hardware level all the way through. You see Apple, Microsoft, Google-- >> That's right. >> And Amazon, all have chips companies and are going really interesting stuff there but it is such a complex individual. >> It is. >> That no one company can do it all, so there is opportunity for people to build on top of that. We have new marketplaces, we have new ways of doing it so it's, yes, there's going to be some really big winners and we have seen changes but there are still opportunities and yeah, John, keeps us busy always. >> Well here's my take on it, I want to get you guys' reaction to my view on this. So obviously we're in the media business, we're disrupting media with theCUBE so we look at the market and it's kind of matched the music industry. The power curve, the power law is very flat and straight and then a very long tail, with the head of the power law is the big players. But then when media came out, it kind of created a fatter tail and a bigger torso. I think that I see in the cloud, I see the rich getting richer. Amazon, Google, Microsoft, Alibaba, and maybe a couple players underneath there, IBM, Oracle, those big guys. And then it's going to be a second tier of cloud service providers. Someone who's going to package all these awesome sets of features in the long tail so you're going to start to see a growth because the big guys cannot be winning all the mid range business. I think, you're right, I think there's going to be a lot of solutions that are just exceptional. >> Mm-hmm. >> And I think the scale of the cloud is going to create an opportunity for new kinds of service providers. Someone who says, hey, you know what? I'm going to package this differently. I'm going to assemble-- >> I think so. >> A cloud solution, on either one of all of the clouds. Why wouldn't I use the accelerated Amazon, or the power of Google? >> I think that's well thought and I do think, we've talked about this for a while too, but I do believe there's going to be specialization by industry where you have certain algorithms and data that's unique to it, by geography. There's still going to be sovereignty issues. Even by just what type of things am I trying to build. So I do think simultaneously there's commonality on the platform but that allows you to do specialization and to really serve a specific industry quite well. >> And machine learning is a great specialty thing. The metadata to power machine learning. >> So Steve, do you have final questions you want to ask us before we run out of time? >> Well I would just say, you see a lot of these conferences. I actually like to show up at these and say, what in point time does this look like the AWS reinvent. For me, what point in time does this look like maybe the VMware event in my case, but I don't know, it just feels to me like we've jumped over, we're sort of at that point where this is going to keep going and growing. >> Yeah, how do we make sure we've hit the inflection point but not jumped the charts? >> Yeah, I mean, do you think we are here? And how does this feel versus some of the other events that you spend time on? >> Yeah, I mean, John you want me to? >> I mean, you know. >> So my take, first of all, is there's a little worry and there's some concern of us that have been through this before, is like, wait, did we just create another OpenStack? >> Yeah. >> And my resounding answer so far, is no. While there might be 35 main projects here each one of those was started for a reason. They stand on their alone, they have, you know we've got Matt Klein on from Lyft, as our next guest here. >> Yeah. >> You know, Envoy, if Kubernetes didn't exist, Envoy would probably still exist. So there's a lot of these pieces that are good but it is complicated. >> It is very complicated. >> And there's all these pieces but that's a real opportunity for a lot of companies. The SIs, the big platforms, to be able to help put this together. >> Yeah. >> And the customers are thrilled with what is going on. >> That's well stated, yeah. >> There's interesting things there. Right, this ecosystem, the only ecosystem I've seen probably grow faster is the Amazon one so it is doing well and we've been looking for years as to like a nice, vendor independent ecosystem. >> Right. >> To grow because, you know, there's some of the ones in the storage industry and things like that. >> Yeah. >> All died. >> That's right. >> So there are vendor shows and this, you know the Lennox Foundation's done a nice job. >> Right, I agree. >> With it and it's been-- >> That's the unique part here for me. >> We bet early on it, so. >> Well we bet early on it, it was a good bet, but here's the challenge that they have; they have lightning in a bottle and it's definitely arrived so there's a little bit of jump to shark moment. You got some things happening that's kind of glam oriented but absolutely it's arrived. I think the challenge that they have is opensource community is a core constituency of this event, and the Lennox Foundation is structured to be kind of a very tight top, thin at the top period of management and the scale of this event and this movement is too big for them, I think, to handle. I think they either have to have sub brand or start segmenting out because if they lose the opensource community, the they're going to lose the vibe of the event and that's the core of what it is. >> Right. >> The downstream benefits, kind of a an opensource parlance, is the IT impact and the developer impact. And inherent in that is business benefits so you're going to start to see more suits coming in and you're going to start to have a melting pot and that is a risky proposition if they don't get out front on that. So yes, it's arrived, but there's so much time they're going to be doing it just to the projects. >> Right. >> Just to the innovation. >> You're going to have to wear these next time that you see them. >> There's a money making aspect of it, yes. >> Right. >> The money making aspect of this is huge. >> Yeah. >> And I think that's what we're watching. >> Yep. >> As the business people come in and say, look at this, this is billions and billions of dollars. >> Yeah. >> This is-- >> Maybe just one more thought on that. The notion is really important, this is a distributed, not really owned by one person, one company, and there's the chaos that comes with that and so how do you do the balance between these two things? >> Yeah, yeah. >> Its like when, I know, when Amazon announced their Blockchain thing, it's like, Blockchain's supposed to be distributed. Now we have a company running it in one cloud. It's like that balance between the push and pull of centralization that we're going to see. >> Well have to put some computer science architecture together and put an operating system around it. >> There ya go. >> We'll have some dev ops. Steve, thanks for coming on theCUBE, great to have you on. >> Good to see you guys. >> Well it's great to see you. A legend in the industry, Steve Herrod, CUBE alumni from 2010, been on every year. Now a venture capitalist, former CTO of VMware. With Stu Miniman, I'm John Furrier, analyst of KubeCon, stay with us for more coverage after this short break. (upbeat techno music)

>> Live from Seattle, Washington, it's the Cube, covering KubeCon andCloudNativeCon North America 2018. Brought to you buy Red Hat, the CloudNative computing foundation and it's ecosystem partners. (background crowd chatter) >> Okay welcome back everyone, live here in Seattle forKubeCon and CloudNativeCon. This is the Cube's coverage, I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman. We've got two great guests, Chris Wright CTO of Red Hat, Scott Sneddon who's the senior director ofcloud at Juniper Networks, breaking down, windingdown day one of three days of coverage here. Rise of kubernetes, rise of cloudnatives, certainly impacting IT,open source communities, and developers. Guys, thanks for coming on the Cube. Appreciate it. It's good to see you. >> Yeah, good to see you. >> Welcome to the Cube. Okay, so, talk aboutthe relationship between Red Hat and Juniper. Why we're here, what are we talking about? >> Well, we're here to talkabout a combined solution. So, Red Hat's bringingkind of the software platform infrastructure piece and Juniper's bringinga networking component that ties it together.>> Yeah. >> So, we do have a fairly, well, in tech terms arelatively long history of working together. We've had a partnership for a little more than two years on sometelco Cloud initiatives around OpenStack, using the right OpenStackplatform with Contrail Juniper's contrail solutionas an SDN layer for these telco Cloud deployments. And have had a lot of successwith that partnership. A lot of large and smallto medium telco's around the world have deployed that. Earlier this year at theOpenStack summit in Vancouver, we announced an expandedpartnership to start to address some enterprise use cases. And, you know, naturallyopen shift is the lead technology that we wanted to tie in with around enterpriseadoption of cloud and some alternatives to someof the legacy platforms that are out there. >> And we were talkingearlier in the Cube here, we always get kind ofthe feel of the show, kubernetes maturing? But it kind of two worlds colliding and working together. A systems kind of view,almost like operating systems. The network systems, allkind of systems thinking. And then just apps. Okay, the old app thing. So these old legacy worldthat we all lived in kind of happening in really dynamic ways with the apps aren't thinkingabout what's below it. This is really kind of whereyou guys have a tailwind with Juniper.>> Yeah. Because you still gotto make things dynamic, you still got latency, onpremises not going away. You got IOT, so networkingplays a really big thing as software starts figuringthings out as kubernetes. Let's talk about that. Where is that value? How's it expanding? Cause clearly you stillneed to move packets from A to B.>> Yeah. Be more efficient with it. Apps going to have policy. >> The, well, I mean you've still got to, the network is always been the foundation of technology or at least for the last 20 plus years. And as cloud has been adopted, really we've seen network scale drive in different ways. The mega scalers thathave built infrastructure that we've been enabling for quite a while and have been working withthose customers as well. We've been developing a lot of simplified architecture just forthe physical plumbing to connect these things together. But what we've seen andis more and more important is, you know, it's all about the app, the app is the thing that'sgoing to consume these things. And the app developerdoesn't necessarily want to worry about IP addresses and port numbers and firewall rules and things like that, so how could we justmore simply extract that? And so, you know, we'vebeen developing automation and aimed at the networkfor quite a while, but I think more andmore it's becoming more important that theapplication can just consume that without having to directthe automation at the app. And so, you know, groupslike CloudNative foundation and a lot of the workwith kubernetes are on network policy, let's us use CloudNativeprivatives and then we can translate into the network primitives that we need to deploy to move packets, you know, IP addresses and subnets. >> And Chris, talk aboutthe multi cloud dynamic here because again, the dayof things are moving around the standardizationaround those core value propositions, youmentioned about networking and software networks, all kinds of software, you know, venations under the covers. I'm a customer, I havemultiple clouds now. This is going to be a core requirement. So you got to have a a clean integration between it. >> There's really two things. If you look at a modern application, you got your traditionalmonolithic application and as you tease itapart and into components and services, there's only one thingthat reconnects them and that's the network and so insuring that that's as easy to use as an applicationdevelopers focus is around the app and not aroundnetwork engineering is fundamental to a single cluster. And then if you have multiple clusters and you're trying to take advantage of different specialtiesin different clouds or geo replication or things like this that also require thenetwork to reconstitute those applications across thedifferent multiple clouds. If you expect your applicationengineers to become experts in networking, you're just sort ofsetting everybody up with misset expectations. >> It slows things down,requires all these other tasks you got to do. I mean it's like a rock fetch. You don't want to do it. Okay, stack a bunch of rocks, move them from there to there. I mean, this is whatthe holy grail of this infrastructure's code really is. >> Yeah.>> Yeah. I mean, that's the goal. >> Help connect the dots for us. When you look at multicloud networking obviously is a very critical component, what're your customers looking for? How does this solution goto market for your company? >> Absolute ease ofuse is top of the list. So, it can't be overly complicated. Because we're alreadybuilding complex systems, these are big distributive systems and you're adding multipleclusters and trying to connect them together. So ease of use is important. And then something that'sdynamic and reflects the current application requirements, I think is also really important. So that you don't over utilize resources in a cloud to maintainsort of a static connection that isn't actually needed at that moment. I'm sure you probably havea different perspective. >> Yeah, I mean, this isthe whole concept of SDN and network virtualization, a lot of the buzzwordsthat have been around for a few years now, is the ability to deliveron demand network services that are turned on whenthe application asks for it and are turned off when the application's done with it. We can create dynamic connectionsas applications scale. And then with a lot of thenewer things we've been doing around contrailand with Red Hat are the ability to extend thoseapplications environments with networking andsecurity into various cloud platforms. So, you know, if it's runningon top of an openstack environment or in a public cloud or, some other bare metal infrastructure, we're going to make surethat the network and security primitives are inplace when the application needs it and then get deepervisioned or pulled out when they go away. >> Being at a show like this, I don't think we need to talktoo much about open source, because that's reallycore and fundamental, but what we're doing here, but I guess, how doesthat play into customers? We've been watching the slow change in the networking world, you know, I'm a networking guy by background, used to measure changesin networks in decades and now it feels like we'removing a tiny bit faster, >> Little bit. >> What're we seeing is--? >> Well, I mean the historyof openness in networking was the ITF>> Standards. >> and IEEE and standards bodies, right? How do we interact? We're going to have ourlittle private playground and then we'll makesure to protocol layer, we can interact with each otherand we call that openness. But the new openness is open source and transparency into the platform and the ability tocontribute and participate. And so Juniper shifted a lot of our focus, I mean we still haveour own silicone and the operating system we built on our routers and switches, but we'vealso taken the contrail platform, open sourced it a few years ago, it's now called thetungsten fabric project under the Linux foundation. And we're activeparticipants in a community. And our customers really demand that. The telco's are drivingtowards an open source model, more and more enterpriseswant to be able to consume open source software with support, which is where we come in, but also be able to have an understanding of what's going on under the covers to participate if that's a possibility. But really drivinginteroperability through a different way then justa protocol interaction and a standards body. >> I can see how kubernetescan be a great fit for you guys at Juniper, clearly out of the boxyou have this kind of inter cloud, inter networking, paradigm that you're used to, right? How does the relationshipof Red Hat take it to the next level? What specifically areyou guys partnering on, where's that, what'sthat impact on customers? Can you just give a quick explanation, take a minute to explainthe Juniper Red Hat-- >> Well a lot of itcomes down to usability and ease of use, right? I mean what Red Hat's done with open shift is developed a platformleveraging kubernetes heavily, to make kubernetes easierto use with the great support model and a lot of tooling built on top of that to make thatmore easily deployable, more easily developersto develop on top of. What we're doing withcontrail is providing a supported version ofour open source project and then by tying thesethings together with some installation tools and packaging and most importantly a support model, that let's a customer have the proverbial single throat to choke. >> Have you ever hadcustomers that can run beautifully on your platform? >> Yeah yeah, and theinstallation process is seamless, it's a nob that installtime to consume contrail or some other networking stack and they can call Red Hat for support and they'll escalate toJuniper when appropriate and vice versa. And we've got all those things in place. >> I think one of the things that we have like shared vision on is, the ease of use andthen if you think about two separate systems with a plug in, there's going to be someintegration that needs to happen and we're lookingat how much automation can we do to keep thoseintegrations always functional so that ifwe need to do upgrades, we can do those together instead of abandoning one side or the other. And I think another areawhere we have shared vision is the multi cloud space where we really see the importance for our customer base toget applications deployed to the right locations. And that could be takingadvantage of different pricing structures in different clouds or it could be hardwarefeatures of functionality. Especially as we getinto edge computing and really creating a differentview of computing fabric, which isn't quite so, you know, client serveror cloud centralized, but much more distributed. >> I like how you said that Chris, earlier about how when you decomposethat monolithic app it connects with the network. That's also the other way around. Little pieces can cometogether and work with the network and then form in real time, whether it's an IOT datacoming into the data center, or pushing computdata to the edge, you got to have that network interaction. This is a real CloudNative evolution, this is the core. >> Yeah, and I think anotherpiece that we haven't touched on as much, Scott mentioned it, was the security component. >> Yeah, explain that. >> Again, with as youdecompose that application into components, you surface those components with APIs, those were internal APIswhen they're now exposed externally security really matters. And having simple policythat describes not just the connectivity topologybut who can speak to whom is pretty fundamentally important. So that you maintainsecurity posture and a risk profile that's acceptable. >> And then I think it'sreally important is, your traditionalenterprise starts to adopt these CloudNative models. You've got a securityteam there that might not necessarily be up to speed or on board. So you've got to havetooling and visualization and analytics to beable to present to them that policies are being enforced correctly and are compliant and all those things so. >> Yeah and they're tough customers too. They're not going to, they expectreally rock solid capability. >> They don't let youjust deploy a big flat network with no policy-- >> Hey what about the APIs? Service areas exposed in the IOT space. >> Yeah.>> Right. >> You got to nail it down. >> Yeah absolutely, sothat's a lot of what we're bringing to the table here, is a lot of Juniper'shistory around developing security products. >> Take a minute to explain,I want to give you some time to get a plug in for Juniper. I've been following youguys for a long time. Junos back on the old days, contrail. Juniper's has had a software, big time software view. >> Yeah. >> Explain the DNA of software at Juniper. >> You know the earlydays of Juniper were, we weren't the first networkvendor on the market. There was already somebodyon the market in the mid 90s that had a pretty solid stronghold on carrier and enterprise networking. We had to come in with a better model. Let's make the box easierto use and simpler. Let's make the interfacea little more structured and understandable. Let's make it programmable, right? I mean the first feature request for Junos was to have a CLI becausethe first interaction to it was just an API call. And that was out of the box from day one. We had to write a user interface to it just to fit in to theexisting network world in the mid 90s. And so we've alwaysbeen really proud of the Junos operating systemthat runs on our boxes. We've really been proudthat we've had this one Junos concept of a commonoperating system on every network device that we deliver. As we've started tovirtualize those network devices for NFE and things like that, it's again that same operatingsystem that we deliver. Contrail came to us through acquisition, so it's not Junos in and of itself, but still leveraging a lot of those same fundamentals around,model driven configuration management, understandableAPIs, and openness that we've always had. >> Cloud operating modelthat everyone's going to, the common operating modelfits in that unification vision that you guys have had. >> Yeah absolutely. >> And really early, by the way, was before SDN was SDN, I think that was SDN's kind of like-- >> I like to dry, I-- >> Should have called it SDN. >> Right, I described SDN as just a big distributed router andreally we've had big distributed routers for a long time. >> John, we are in Seattle, everything we're talkingabout in tech is hipster. >> Chris, great stuff. Great to have you on, Scott. Great smart commentary. CTO Red Hat, you guys are winning. Congratulations on the betsyou made at kubernetes early, >> Yeah. >> CoreOS great acquisition,great team there, and some news there aboutsome dealings out back into the C and CF, soI mean, you've got it-- >> A lot going on. >> A lot going on. And yeah, big news with that other things, I can't remember what it was, it was some big-->> Something in there. >> Something for a million dollars. >> Great news out there. Thanks for coming out, appreciate it. Good to see you.>> Good to see you. >> Alright, breakingdown day one coverage. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman. Day two starts tomorrow. Three days of wall towall coverage of KubeCon. And they're shutting down the hall. Be right back and see you tomorrow. Thanks for watching. (techy music)

>> Live from Seattle, Washington, it's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon + CloudNativeCon North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. (upbeat music) >> Hey welcome back, and we're here live with CUBE coverage here in Seattle for KubeCon + CloudNativeCon. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman is here, and Jason McGee. Who's an IBM fellow, CTO of IBM's Cloud platform, Kube alumni. Great to see you. Welcome back. >> Great to be here. >> I want to jump right in. You got a talk coming up, you got a show here that's doubling in size. The community is clearly resonates around Kubernetes. >> Yeah absolutely. >> Which is goodness for the industry. We covered that last year, how people started to snap in in getting it. Bringing it together, seeing visibility into value points where people can co-exist and create value. But we're now going to the next level. Cloud's certainly been validated, the hybrid cloud, on premises and public cloud. Working? >> Yeah >> Customers are seeing it, uptake is there. Where's the big thread now that's being worked on? Because, as going to the next level, it's an app market. We've also got some systems in there. Where do you see this coming together? I know you're giving a talk on this. >> Yeah I think, at the end of the day, people are trying to run applications. That's what this game has always been about. They have applications they're trying to build and run. They run their business. And I think, as a community, this group of people here has been working together to build that platform. And I think it's been actually incredible to watch the last couple of years. Everyone rallying round Kubernetes and Containers. That agreement amongst everyone happened so much faster than I thought it would. I was pretty confident two or three years ago that Kube was the right path forward, but that everyone came there has been pretty amazing. And I think what's happening now is, well what about stateless Twelve-Factor apps? What about functions? What about the rest of the stack? And how do we all come together as a community to find that going forward? >> Talk about the role of functions and as compute storage and networking that we call the holy trinity of IT. Those things have changed with Cloud, but specifically compute. I mean, I used to say, "Spin up a server in 10 seconds." Well I need now, milliseconds. So you see functions in, you know Amazon with Lambda, these things are changing the game. Now with containers and functions, a dynamic is evolving pretty interestingly. How do you see that evolving, and the impact of that piece? Because compute certainly is goodness to a lot of things. >> Sure, I think functions is interesting 'cause there's kind of two angles on it. There's functions as a business model, and functions as an architecture. And I think the architecture part, the programmable part is quite interesting. There are certain styles of applications, mostly Ven-oriented applications, where that is a really natural way to solve a problem. And I think what platforms are all about is having the platform be rich enough that for diversity workloads that you're running it's easy to consume the platform. And so, us all agreeing on functions as a programming model and getting that in the platform, and integrated with Kubernetes, and integrated with Istio, I think will enable people to build apps much more quickly. >> You see that's a good size right now? Good signals? >> Yeah. The Knative project is a great example of something new. >> Yeah Jason, I wonder if we can pull on that thread a little bit there? Because the holy grail has always been, I just want to worry about my application and all that storage and networking stuff should just work. When we went to virtualization it helped to a level, but that was just an abstraction. What's the same and what's different about when we go to something like functions, compared to what we've been doing in the past? >> Well, I think there's a couple things. First, I think IT is under this kind of, we're trying to flip the model. For my whole 20+ year career, IT has been mostly about infrastructure, and we started at infrastructure and we built our way up to apps. And what I think we've been trying to do with Kubernetes and with Knative is flip it, and start at apps and move our way down. Now Kube was a good step in that journey but it's still pretty raw, you know? You still have storage abstractions, you still have networking abstractions. What you want is for certain workloads to not worry about any of that, and functions and also Twelve-Factor systems, like Cloud Foundry, both play a role and if you fit within a paradigm we can get rid of all of that for you. And that's what developers want. And it doesn't work for everything. Not every application follows the rules. And I think Cloud Foundry has a particular opinionated view of twelve-factor stateless apps, functions has a particular opinionated view of event-orientated apps. We need those abstractions, and we need them to be done consistently with the rest of the platform, so you can kind of mix and match as you see fit. >> Istio has gotten hot too, so service batches are coming in. I know there's been some debate around how much does Kubernetes become or staying core. Last year we had big conversations around the core and let things fill in around it. Your thoughts on this trend and how people are thinking about it and what's being actually implemented? >> So my view is, I think the community has done a good job in letting different projects fill in their role, but us all agreeing on the stack. I mean container being Kubernetes, and Istio, and Knative, Prometheus. All these things are kind of slotting into their place, and I think in general we've done a good job of avoiding one mega system design. And I think CNCF has done a good job of letting a few competitors play with each other in the community, and make each other better. >> Jason, you bring up such a great point there, because one of the things when we reach this size and there are so many people here, there's the obvious comparison to, is this OpenStack? And you've just brought up one of the biggest things that I've seen is, before it was like, okay well how many different pieces are in the core and I've got the big tent and all these things, but it all needed to live together, as opposed to here, I've got all of these components and, in many ways we're trying to decompose Kubernetes and we've got all these various pieces, and they're not all dependent on each other and we don't all have to agree. There can be, from observability, for management, there's so many different ways that I can take the pieces and put them together. So, I would love your viewpoint as to what we're getting right now? And how do we not duplicate some of the sins of the past? >> Yeah, I mean, first off it's always something that a community as vibrant as this has to keep their eye on. It's like, is it all getting out of control? So far I think we've all done a good job because we've been very application oriented, and we've also been very focused on real usage. Most of the technologies we're talking about here, people are really using in production, ad-scale... There's somebody who has real earning behind that. And I think it's driven good decision-making. I think one of the, maybe, unsung things about Kubernetes is the extensibility model, that's built into Kubernetes. The loose coupling that's built into this community has been incredibly powerful. Because it's allowed new things, like Istio is a great example. We, with Google and Lyft and others, built Istio. We built it in this completely native experience inside of Kubernetes without changing anything about Kubernetes. We were able to insert it into the system in a very natural way. And I think that allows us to experiment and figure out where we need to go without it becoming this big mess. >> Scale's great, and that's a key value of the Cloud. Security is number one. What's your view on security? How's that going? What are end users experiencing? How serious is a security issue? Recently Kubernetes seemed to work, from the recovery standpoint, to automate it pretty quickly. But security is a concern. It's top of mine. You've got the security containment boundary there, the boundary within containers, you've got role of DMs. How do a new dimension... How do you view the security piece of Kubernetes? So I think it's letting us solve those problems in completely different ways. The holy grail for a long time has been get to standardized systems. And I think with Containers, we're as close as we've ever been. And I wouldn't say we're there, but we're awfully close to having a model where we've got clean separation between the application layer and the system. We can plug in security. We can do image enforcement. We can do scanning. We can do firewalling and network stuff in very different ways. Even Istio. Istio, at the end of the day, a lot of what people are interested in with Istio is the security idea. Like, I can do a cryptic communications between microservices, and that's all kind of done for me in the infrastructure underneath. So I think security is important. I think we're making it easier for developers to be successful building secure systems with platforms like we're talking about here. Because we're able to solve them in new ways. >> We've got IBM Think coming up. theCUBE will be there February, I think 15th? >> 12th to the 15th >> 12th to the 15th, in San Fransisco. What are you guys going to be talking about at IBM Think for folks that are going, or people might want to sign up. Plug for theCUBE and IBM Think there for a quick second. What's going to be there? What's the focus with an IBM... You guys got a lot of customers. What's their resonance to Kubernetes? How are they thinking about it? How are they consuming it? Will you share a little bit about what's coming up for them? >> Yeah, at IBM we're focused on helping customers make that journey to Cloud, and we're very pragmatic. We understand the complexity of the environments they have. They're building awesome new Cloud Native stuff, they have a bunch of existing middleware workloads. So we're going to be talking a lot about how we help you get there and how you handle the diversity of workloads. We're going to talk a lot about technology, about Kubernetes. We're going to do some fun stuff. We're going to do an awesome... We have a session that's all drones, flying drones demo of how Kubernetes works. Like all live, maybe somebody'll get hurt; I'm not sure. But we're going to do some awesome tech demos. >> We've heard a little bit of discussion about IoT here but not a lot about AI when it comes here. And I wondered if you might be able to help connect the dots for us? >> Yeah, so I'd say two things. AI is its whole own domain. I think the intersection with AI and a conference like this is Kubernetes is the platform for AI too. At IBM we run all of Watson on Kubernetes. We run all of our machine-learning and deep-learning systems by Kubernetes. So it is becoming the platform for AI developers as well, to be able to be successful, taking advantage of all the compute resource, custom hardware and stuff that's available in Cloud. So I think there's a strong intersection, of this being the platform for those workloads. >> So on the Cloud Native stuff, we know we've been covering you guys for a long time. You had SoftLayer in acquisition, but even before SoftLayer you had Bluemix. Bluemix was developing a lot of Cloud Native technologies. How is the result of the years of investment around Bluemix changing or evolving with the rise of Kubernetes and the rise of these new sets of microservices? Because you got operations impact, you got developer impact, you've the the simplicity model you were just talking about. How is IBM bringing that to bear? Can you share some inside commentary on what's happening? >> Over the last 2+ years, we've been building up the platform I've been describing to you in our cloud. We made a decision that Kubernetes was the foundation, both for the existing apps to modernize and for new things. And then we've been taking our serverless platform, our Cloud Foundry investment, our DevOps tools, and bringing them all together. My goal is to build that new platform. As an old web seer guy from 20 years ago, I saw the value in the industry rallying round a common platform for apps. I think we can do that again. I think we've made so much progress. And at IBM we're trying to drive that thought, both in our products and in these community interactions. >> Talk about that dynamic you mentioned... We were talking about before we came on camera here, about how I was saying it's a systems world now. People who have a different mindset seem to resonate well with Cloud. You mentioned the app server days, those blurry days. There's a renaissance of those two dimensions going on. Just share you thoughts on that. I thought you had an interesting insight. >> I think it's interesting. Cloud is absolutely a systems kind of problem. It's how do you bring hardware and networking, abstractions around compute, all these pieces together, and do it in a way that's composable. I think that's the really interesting part of Cloud, is you have a hundred things that all on their own have to have solid capability, and then you have to be able to mix and match them. And you can't do that unless you take a systems view. That security is the same, the user experience is the same, APIs are the same. And it's been actually really challenging to do that in the context of OpenSource, because every OpenSource project has its own viewpoints on how you do authentication, and authorisation, users, and getting all this stuff to work together is hard. And so I do think we have a little bit of a resurgence of people who understand how to build complete end-to-end systems. >> And then once you enable that you have some horizontally scalable capabilities, you got data and virtual specialization. >> You can specialize and you can have some common base. >> So now at the top, above that, is the app server kind of vibe that you went through. That's kind of happening now. You see that. >> Absolutely. >> And we see it for our clients and ourselves. All of IBM Cloud we've moved to run on the same platform. We run all of our services on Kubernetes. And so we've kind of used the platform ourselves to prove how it can handle this diverse set of workloads. >> This is really disruptive. I think that's a great angle. Jason, thanks for sharing that on theCUBE. We really want to get that out. Cloud is disrupting IT, open source communities, and the developer market, both horizontal scale and new kinds of application environments. It's certainly exciting. Thanks for having us here at KubeCon. Three days of wall-to-wall coverage. I'm John Furrier and Stu Miniman. And day one. Stay with us for more interviews after this short break. (upbeat music)

>> Live from Seattle, Washington. It's theCUBE, covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon North America 2018, brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem of partners. >> Hello everyone, welcome to theCUBE. We are at CubeCon 2018 in Seattle, CloudNativeCon as well. We've been to every KubeCon and CloudNativeCon since inception. I'm John Furrier. My co-host Stu Miniman want to break down the three days of wall to wall coverage of the rise of kubernetes and the ecosystem and the industry consolidation and standardization around kubernetes for multi cloud, for hybrid cloud. We're here breaking down day one keynote, kicking everything off. Stu, it's fun to come here and watch words like expansion, Moore's law, expansive growth, doubling down. The attendance for KubeCon, CloudNativeCon, hockey stick growth chart on Twitter. 1200, 4000, 8000 up into the right. Global phenomenon, the team at CNC at KubeCon, huge presence in China this year, total expansion all to save, hold the line on the cloud tsunami that is Amazon's web services. >> Yeah. >> This is the massive cloud game going on, your thoughts. >> Yeah, John first of all. You have to start out just expansive growth and you can just feel the energy here. We're in the middle of the show floor. You were here two years ago in Seattle when I think they said, they were, was it 16? There weren't that many sponsors here. There's 180 booths at this show. The joke in the keynote this morning was if you want to replace your entire T-shirt wardrobe that's what you can do here. Everybody's got fun stickers. It's a good crowd. Those alpha geeks, this is where they are. >> And Stu, you're sporting a new T-shirt. >> Yeah, John so I want to thank our friends. >> Make sure they can see that. >> Our friends here, Women Who Go. They do the GoLang languages, the gopher is what they're doing here. So love that, if you're at the show, come by. Get our stickers. If you look up Women Who Go on thread list. They actually have an artist shop. The CNCF has their logo up there. We have their logo. There is blockchain. There's docker, there's all these and you can buy the shirts and the money for buying these shirts actually goes to bring women and underserved people to events like this. We also love John when they're supporting this. The CNCF actually, I think it was a 130 or so people that they brought to this conference through charitable donations from many of the sponsors. >> And that's one of the highlights I want to get to later is the mission driven and the social responsibility, scholarships, the money that's being donated to fund diversity inclusion in all walks of life to make CloudNative, but Stu lets get back to the core thing that's going on here at KubeCon, CloudNativeCon. A couple years ago, I said, we said on theCUBE that the Tsunami, that is Amazon Web Service is just going to just hit ashore and just wipe out the industry in IT as much as it can go unless someone builds a seawall. Builds a wall to stop that momentum. Kubernetes and KubeCon specifically has had that moment. This is the industry saying look it. Cloud is awesome. It's full validation of cloud but there is more than just AWS. This is about multi cloud, hybrid cloud, and a lot of forces are at play competitively to make sure that Amazon doesn't run the table. >> Yeah, John, it's good to do a little bit of compare and contrast here because if you go back to OpenStack, it was OpenStack is the hail Mary against Amazon, and it's going to help you get off your VMware licenses. Well that's not what kubernetes is, if you look both VMware required Heptio, and Amazon have a big presence at this show. Amazon, their hands were forced to be able to actually work with kubernetes. I remember I read an article that said, there were about 14 different ways you can run kubernetes on Amazon before they supported it. Now they fully support it. They're going even deeper, AWS Fargate. I know you spend a lot of time at re:Invent digging into some of this environment here so this isn't, portability is a piece of kubernetes. Kubernetes won the orchestrator battles out there. It is the de facto standard out there, and we're seeing how this stack can really be built up on top of it. The thing that I've been keying in on coming into this year is how Serverless plays into it. You heard a big push for Knative on the keynote which is Google, who of course brought us to kubernetes. IBM, SAP, Red Hat all there but I don't see Microsoft or AWS yet embracing how we can match up Serverless and kubernetes today with the Knative. >> I think if I'm Amazon or Microsoft, I might be a little bit afraid of this movement because when, we went through the multi vendor days. You had multi vendoring decades ago. Now, multi cloud is the multi vendoring story, and what's interesting is that choice becomes the key word in all this and a real enterprise that's out there. They got Cisco routers, they got tons of stuff that's actually running their business, powering their business. They need to integrate that so this idea that one cloud fits all certainly has been validated. I think to me the winner takes most but what this community is doing Stu around kubernetes is galvanizing around a new stack configuration with kubernetes at the center of it, and that will disintermediate services at AWS and at Microsoft. Microsoft stock price has put that company in a higher value position than Google or Apple. What has Microsoft actually done to make them go from a $26 stock price to $100 and change? What did they actually invent? What did they actually do? What did they disrupt? Was it just go in a cloud? Is it Office 365? This begs the question is it just the business model shift so certainly there is business in the cloud and it's showing here at KubeCon. >> Yeah John, there was a major cultural shift inside of Microsoft I was really excited. One of the shows I got to go to this year was Microsoft Ignite, and in many ways it's interesting. That show has been around for decades and in many ways, it was the Windows admin just getting the latest and greatest. From my standpoint, I think it was Microsoft fully embracing the move to SaaS. They're pushing everybody to Office 365. They are aggressively moving to expand their cloud that that hybrid environment Microsoft has the applications, and they're not waiting for customers to just leave them or hold onto whatever revenue stream. They're switching to that writable model. They're switching to SaaS model. They're pushing really hard on Azure. They're here in force. They're really embracing developers, all the .NET folks, they were-- >> They're moving the ball inch by inch down the fields slowly to that cadence and that in totality with social responsibility and commencement of the cloud. I think has been, there's not one thing that's happened. It's just a total transformation for Microsoft, and the results and the valuation are off the charts. Google, the same way. Diane Greene has, I think was unfairly categorized by the press in terms of her exit. She's been wanting to retire for years Stu. She has turned Google around. You look at Google where they are right now verses where they were two years ago. Two years ago, they were slinging cloud the Google way. Now they're saying hey, you know what. We know the enterprise. Jennifer Lin, Sarah Novotny, Dawn Chen. All those people over there are leading the way real enterprise just with tech and they got some big moves to make, and they're doing it. So Diane Greene did not fail. So that was one thing that's interesting in the ecosystem and in Amazon as you know just kick it out. So given all that Stu, how does that relate to this? >> Yeah, let's bring it back here. So first of all, kubernetes. It was interesting the keynote this morning. We spent a lot of time talking about things that built on top of and around what's happening with kubernetes. Talking about things like how Helm is moving forward. Onvoy, Prometheus all of these projects. There are a couple dozen incubating projects and a few of them are graduating up to be full flanked projects. We talked about the ecosystem and how many partners are here. There's around 80 service providers and about 80 platforms that have kubernetes baked in. I want to point out an interesting distinction. Some people said, it's like oh they're 75 or 80 different distributions of it. I don't think that anybody thinks that they're going to make a differentiated platform that people are going to buy what I'm doing because I have the best kubernetes. Really what the CNCF has done a good job is saying you're fully supported. You're inoperable, you meet the guidelines to say, I am kubernetes and therefore it's baked into what we're doing. So why do we have so many of them? It's well, there's a lot of clouds out there. There's service providers and even the infrastructure players are making sure that they're in there. Everybody from Intel, all the way through. Servers and storage and networking all making sure that they're doing they're pieces to make sure that they work in the kubernetes environment. >> So Stu, I got to ask you a question on the keynote. You were in the front row. I was watching online here. Kind of distraction, sold out in the keynote. I didn't get the whole gist of it. How much of the keynote was vendor or project expansion verses end user traction? Can you give some color on that? >> Yeah, so a lot of it was the projects. What's really good is there's not a lot of vendors. Sure there is here's the logo slide. Let's everybody give a big round of applause and thank you. But when they put the projects up there, many of these projects came out of a group but some of that is well Lyft. Lyft created one of these projects and who's involved in that. One of the big news announcement was FCD is being donated to the CNCS, and well that came out of CoreOS to solve a really needed problem that they had to make sure that when you're rolling upgrades that you don't reboot the entire cluster all at once, and then your application isn't able to be there. So why are they donating? Well it has reached the maturity level, and while CoreOS is inside of Red Hat, there is a broad adoption. Lots of people contributing and it just makes sense to hand it over. Red Hat, everything they've done always is 100% open source, so them making sure that they have a good relationship with the foundation and who should have the governs of that. Red Hat has a strong track record on that. I know we'll be talking a lot-- >> All right so Stu get your perspective on the big players. We saw Google up on Saint-operno. We saw VMware. Cisco is here. I saw some of the Cisco executives here earlier. You got Red Hat, you got the big dogs here, Microsoft. What's the trend on the big players and then what's the trend on the hot startups either companies and or new wave in here? You mentioned Knative. So big companies, what's the general trend there and then what are you seeing on the interests around startups. >> So John, last year when I talked to users at this show. It was most of the people that were using kubernetes were building their own stack. The exception to that was oh if I'm a Red Hat customer, open shift makes sense for me. I can built it into what my model is. Azure had just come out with their AKS support. AWS had just been figuring out their ECS verse EKS and what they had. We're going to do before Fargate was down there. Today, what I hear is maturation of the platform so I expect Amazon and Microsoft to win more, and just I'm on those platforms. I'm using it, oh I want to use their kubernetes service that's going to make sense. So the rich get richer in this a lot way. Red Hat is going to do well, IBM is a strong player here, and of course sometime in 2019, we expect that acquisition of Red Hat to close. From a start up standpoint, there are so many niches that can be filled here. The question is how many of them are going to end up as acquisitions inside some of these big ones. How much of them can monetize because as I said with kubernetes John, I don't see a company that's going to say oh, I'm going to be the kubernetes company and monetize. Mirantis for a year or so ago was pivoting to be from the OpenStack company to the kubernetes company. Heptio was an early player and they had a quick exit. They're bringing strong skill set to the VMware team to help VMware accelerate their CloudNative activities. So in many ways John, this is an evolution more than a revolution so I do not see a drastic change in the landscape. >> Well evolution is cloud computing. We know that's going to yield the edge of the network and then on premise is complete conversions. This evolution is interesting Stu because this is an open source community vibe. You have now two other things going on around it. You have the classic open source community event, and you've got on the other spectrum, normal app developers that just want to right code. Then you got this IT dynamic. So what's happening and that will be interesting and we'll be watching this is how does the CNCF KubeCon, CloudNativeCon involve, and you start to cross pollinate app developers who just want our infrastructure as code. IT people who want to take over a new IT and then pure open source community players. This has now become a melting pot. Is that an opportunity or a challenge for the CNCF and the Linux Foundation? >> The danger is that this just gets overruned by vendors. It becomes another OpenStack that people get disenfranchised through what they're doing so absolutely there's a threat here. To their credit, I think the CNCF has done a really good job of managing things. They're smart is how they're doing. They're community focused. I have to say in the keynote John, if we noticed the diversity was phenomenal. Most of the speakers were women. They were one from end users. There are a couple of dozen end users that are now members of the CNCF. >> I think they're all CUBE alumnis too. >> Absolutely, and John, we've been here since the early days been tracking the whole thing. >> It's fun to watch. My opinion on the whole the melting pot of those personas is I think the CNCF and the Linux Foundation has a winning formula by owning and nurturing the open source community side of it. I think that's where the data is going to be, that's where the action is and I think as a downstream benefit, the IT market and developers will win. I would not try to get enamored by the money, and the vendor participation hype. I don't think they are. I'm just saying I would advise them to stay the course. Make this the open source community show of course, that's what we believe and of course we're CubeNative this week. We are here at the CloudNative and now we're CubeNative. This is the first day of three days of coverage. I'm John Furrier and Stu Miniman breaking down the analysis, talking to the smartest people we can find, and also talk about some of the key players that are sponsoring the show. We'll be back with more coverage after this short break. (uptempo techno music)

>> Announcer: Live from Vancouver Canada, it's theCUBE covering OpenStack Summit North America 2018. Brought to you by RedHat, the OpenStack foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. I'm Stu Miniman with my co-host for the week John Troyer. And helping us to bring it on home we have Roman Alekseenkov who's the co-founder of Aptomi. Brand new start up, I feel we've got the exclusive here to help you know, we have some blog posts out there and the like, but help to introduce you to our community and some of the broader world. Thanks for joining us. >> Yep, my first time at theCUBE. >> Alright so Roman, give us a little bit about your background and you know, we need with any, you know, founder the why of your company. >> Okay so I guess let's start with a background. So I used to work for one of the cloud infrastructure startups called Mirantis. And I worked there for a very long time. And last year I decided to start something on my own. Right, so now I am one of the main guys and one of the core contributors to the project called Aptomi. So and, I don't know if it's relevant, but before Mirantis, I've been doing a lot of the programming competitions like Google Code Jam, ACMICPC and Top Coder. My team ended up winning ACMICPC world finals. So I have like a decent background in algorithms, computer science, data structures, and things like that. >> Yeah. >> So that's me. >> We always see people are always humble there. It's, we know Mike Dvorkin is on your team. >> He is. >> People in the networking world, you know, might have run across Mike, and so super smart people. Give us the you know, the problem statement that your company's looking to solve. >> Right, so... I think it's going to be not one sentence answer. It's going to be a slightly longer answer. So when we talk to a number of companies who are using Kubernetes and who are building apps on top of Kubernetes, we looked into CI space and the CD space. And we looked at the CI, and in the CI for the most part, most of the problems seem to be solved, right. Everything that starts from your source code and then Docker file, how you build your artifacts, how you test it, and how you publish the binary to the repo, all that part seems to be streamlined. You take Jenkins, you take Docker, you take all the tools. You write some Kubernetes key, so this part, packaging components, it's not a big deal. And what we saw is where all the people are struggling is actually in the CD space, right. Once you start putting multi-container complex applications out of those pieces once you start wiring those pieces together, maybe microservices, maybe not, but once you start wiring things together, once you start running them across multiple environments, multiple clusters, right, that's where the things become really, really difficult for people who just rely on the tool set that we have today. Right, and that's where we saw an opportunity to build this service abstraction which allow people to wire things together and run them and operate them in a controllable way across multiple clusters and multiple environments integrated obviously with the continuous delivery pipelines. >> So if people weren't using Aptomi, what would they be using now? Or what kind of, what kinds of tools and processes are they bringing together if they're not doing this? Are they doing everything by hand, or how do you compare it to some of the other tools? >> Right, so a lot of people, they use some homegrown frameworks right now on top of Kubernetes and Helm. Or maybe on top of Kubernetes and YAML files. Or maybe Kubernetes and JSON is also one of the ways to do this. But there are some drawbacks in, in the approaches, right? Because we think that you want to start reasoning about those as actually applications and services not as like as a bunch of YAMLs and containers right? And so once you start talking about this as services as well as rules around those services, right maybe I want to say like hey everything that goes in my production environment should be secure or I want all my services with label "X" deployed to the dev environment or to cluster US east right? I mean the things become easier for you, 'cause you don't have to deal with the YAML file. >> Kind of from the abstraction layer up to maybe up, say to in other part of IT you might say it's policy driven almost, it's declarative, intent driven; I want this to happen rather than writing this kind of crazy YAML. Actually one of the Kubernetes founders, I dunno recently on Twitter or somewhere I was reading was saying that YAML was never supposed to be written by humans, that was kind of a mistake we meant for it to be under the covers but here we are. >> Roman: Right, but you are exactly right. It's services as well as intent around the services. >> Stu: Roman, I want to get your thoughts on just the Kubernetes ecosystem itself, you know for years here at OpenStack it was "Oh wait there's a lot of different distributions", you know, moving between one or the other wasn't necessarily easy. Kubernetes seems like we're a little bit better, a little further along, might've learned from some of the issues that we've had here. There's, last I saw it was getting around 40 different options but you know the thing I also wonder about is Kubernetes tends to get baked into platforms so you've got people that will build their own, just take the code, but you know Red Hat has a platform, all the public clouds have a platform, then there's a number of startups there. What's that like from your standpoint kind of being in this ecosystem is it, and maybe give us a little comparison compared to what it would have been like in the OpenStack world? >> Roman: Sounds good, so for us we actually we don't really care on what Kubernetes we run because we run, we help people to deliver apps and services on top. But if you talk about Kubernetes itself, we don't actually last year we haven't seen a lot of issues with Kubernetes right because we run a cluster in our lab, it just works. JKE always doesn't let me down, we also run things on Azure so speaking about the Kubernetes infrastructure I think the state of Kubernetes right now it's pretty reliable. So we don't see a lot of issues with that. But you also mentioned the platform, right so Kubernetes is part of the platform and that's the interesting part because a couple of years ago everyone was talking about Pass. It's Pass, Pass, Pass, Pass everywhere. Now you see a lot of conversations about Pass because Pass is like a monolith platform, doesn't exist anymore because it basically gets decomposed into what people call I guess containers of service and the modular tool set. And container orchestration is one part, and there is like 15 or 16 different parts from ad definition, to orchestration, and CD pipelines and security components, right? And that's why you see so many products out there with overlapping functionality. >> I mean do you think that the concept of Pass is going away at this point? Will we continue to redefine what a Pass is? I think every few years maybe that's the pattern. >> My personal opinion is that the concept of Pass is gone. There's is no more Pass. The future is the modular stack and the modular tool set. >> Stu: Yeah, so absolutely the future is becoming more distributed. I'm curious your thoughts then on something like Serverless which tends to change that even a little bit more than what we've been looking at. >> Roman: Sure well Serverless is, I guess it's not for everyone. It also depends on the type of workload that you run. If you want to run something compute intensive I guess it's still going to be containers or even VMs but likely containers. But if you have some stateless front-end or API, something that you sometimes make a call to and have to do something and get a response back sure Serverless is great, and Serverless actually fits quite well into what Mike and are tying to do with Aptomi. >> John: Roman I also wanted to ask about dependency mapping and visualizing dependencies. Hybrid cloud has been a big theme this week. It's actually a big theme in enterprise and elsewhere. When that happens when you have separate components whether they are monolithic components that are talking to each other down to microservices, dependencies are huge at that, the application level dependencies, especially as you move to hybrid cloud because you might be moving some component away from the rest and you better know what's talking to the other components. Any thoughts on how that is developing as architecture, application architectures and what you guys are doing to help there? >> Roman: Yeah so there's basically two ways how you can approach this so one way is the traditional way where you just open up your Kubernetes to a bunch of developers and people just run their things in different namespaces. If you use that approach I think those dependencies between different components, what relies on what, who's talking to whom, they become non-obvious, it's really hard to discover them once you got things deployed. So we are taking a slightly different approach because we require a little bit more information upfront about dependencies between components so once you deploy things through Aptomi we kind of already know what exists on the clusters and why, and who owns the resources, and who asked for certain services to be deployed. So we do provide some contextual visibility into that. And what's really nice is we're trying to build this, or we are building this on top of the community standards, we are not reinventing the whole platform, or trying to invent a new language, it's basically build ontop of Kubernetes and Helm. It's just a simple declarative service based abstraction and it rules. >> Stu: Last thing I wanted to ask, Aptomi itself, you know what's the state of the project? Is it a 1.0, are you looking for contributors, where are you with customers, help round off the understanding of the company and project. >> Sounds good, so we are one year into the project. The project is completely open source, it's on Github. It has 4 contributors right now and close to 2,000 commits maybe a little bit more. 100 star, 100+ on Github, so we're getting some traction, in the open source. Speaking about the readiness I think it's we're not 1.0 yet but we're getting close to 1.0. And the core of it, and the whole project is completely open source right, it's 100% Apache 2.0, but what we also do we also offer a hosted version with support. Right so when people come and they can just get the complete CD system with the service based layer and abstraction through our hosted version with support and that's what we are charging money for and revenue wise we do have paying customers, but it's only a year in so. Not a big amount but, there's going to be more. >> Stu: Alright well, Roman Alekseenkov really appreciate you sharing with us. Congratulations on the progress so far, seen an item I'd like working for us and for John Troyer. I'm Stu Miniman, we thank you for joining for 3 days of live wall-to-wall coverage of big final shout-out to the OpenStack Foundation and the supports of theCUBE for the whole crew here. Thank you for watching theCUBE. >> (electro-dance music) >> (soft piano) >> Astronaught: I recommend you activate my bit-ray over.

(upbeat electronic music) >> Announcer: Live from Vancouver, Canada, it's theCUBE, covering OpenStack Summit North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to The Cube's coverage of OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. I'm Stu Miniman with my co-host John Troyer. Happy to welcome back a company we've spoken to a few times at events, Paddy Power Betfair. First time guest coming to us from across the pond, Dave Buckley who is the automation engineer with Paddy Power Betfair, thanks for joining us. >> Thank you for having me. >> Alright, so first of all, you've been to a couple summits and we've talked to Paddy Power about OpenStack. Before we get into your specific implementation, tell us about your experience here this week and any compare, contrast to previous years. >> Yeah so I'm very lucky, I got to come to the previous two summits in North America. I guess what I've enjoyed this week, it's kind of a slight tilt towards, it's away from being purely OpenStack, kind of towards this open infrastructure kind of thing, 'cause like I said, especially last year in Boston, Q and NEs was becoming a big thing. Yeah, and kind of, the OpenStack Foundation becoming kind of more, not that it wasn't before, but more community-based and being part of the ecosystem. So, yeah, I think it's been quite interesting seeing that. >> Not to put words in your mouth but, it was even, the last year or two, it's more aware of some of the complimentary things and adding pieces. You know, we had, one of the interviews we did this week was person who's the SIC lead for the Kubernetes stuff, that sits under another Foundation, things like that. Yeah, exactly. It's been quite interesting this week, I guess, sort the Kata Container project, which wasn't something I'd been aware of before Monday morning basically. I remember we were sitting in the keynotes, and they were like, you can have this container-like thing which has all the speed of a container, but it's as secure as a BM. And you're thinking, how, how is that even possible? So I've really enjoyed, I got to go to one of the sessions yesterday, one of the technical introductions on that. >> Yeah, I always love, there's certain things where, okay, this is what I'm going to do with my schedule, and turns into, this got announced, or I didn't know about this, and you knew, blow up my schedule, let me change everything else. Yeah, exactly, I think you always, you can't, you have to be flexible, right? Adaptable, and as the week goes on you just go to what you think is interesting. >> John: So Dave, you and your company have been working with OpenStack for quite a while. >> Dave: Yeah. >> And you obviously run a system that needs to be stable. Right, needs to, you take care of betting and people's money. >> Dave: Exactly. >> So that needs to be solid. But I understand you recently went though an upgrade and have some experiences talking about that? Can you talk a little bit about where you are with your OpenStack implementation and that sort of migration? >> Sure. So, I guess it's about three years ago, it was Betfair at the time, so this was before the merger of the two companies. So Betfair started using OpenStack, and I think it was actually the last time the summit was here, in Vancouver. So a couple of my colleagues who were kind of the technical leads at the time. Steve Armstrong and Steve Perera, they flew out here, to kind of get a feel for OpenStack, what it was, talk to people who'd had experiences with it. I actually think that conference back then was very informative of what the platform today now looks like. So some of the conversations they had there with people like New Age Networks and Arista, which we used for the switching, but conversations they had there kind of ended up being now what we're using in production. I guess over the past couple of years, so the big thing that happened obviously was this merger between Paddy Power and Betfair, following that they had an exercise which they called the single customer platform, which is annoyingly, for a sys-admin guy, kind of like me, they, it's always been abbreviated to SCP, but you have to ignore that. So that was to kind of consolidate and integrate the Paddy Power and Betfair co-bases and put it on a single platform, which was our OpenStack and Nuage platform. So that kind of completed in January this year, so that's live, so basically the Paddy Power sports book has an entirely new website, all running on OpenStack. A lot quicker and more efficient then the previous version. So that's been a real success. And as part of that, I should say that stability is really vital, so kind of in our business. If the site is down we don't make any money, and if it happens during a big sporting event you have a big problem. >> Do you have a metric around that? What a minute or an hour of down time would be? >> So I guess it always depends, so the nature of our traffic is very spikey. So obviously when you have a big, it's on a Saturday in Europe, the football, soccer, maybe I should say, is like a very big deal. >> We have a global audience, football's okay. >> I'll stick with football then. >> We were all watching the royal wedding. >> I don't want to talk about that. The football, if you, we just get peak traffic on that day. And, even within the year, there's a thing called the Grand National, which is a big event in the UK, big horse racing, I guess like the Kentucky Derby. It's kind of when we get our maximum traffic in the year. Yeah, you always need to be prepared for that. So one of the things as you mentioned, we kind of look into upgrade OpenStack from Kilo to Newton. So we've been on Kilo from the start. We're using Red Hat's distribution of OpenStack, so what Red Hat offer is this, they have like every three releases I think it is? They have this long release life-cycle. So that's kind of the reason we're going to Newton, cause we have kind of the, then the support will go to 2021. [Stu] - But if I remember, it's Red Hat the OpenStack Platform 10. >> Dave: Yeah. >> And 13 is going to be queened as their next one that's going to be released. >> Exactly, so I think they just announced that this week, right? So I think at some point in the next year or two we'd be going to queens. >> How do you determine when you make that jump and anything around the upgrade process, you know, good and bad that you could share. >> Dave: Yeah, so I guess going from, we were overdue an upgrade in this case, Kilos, you know, pretty old now. What we're lucky that we can do is because we have Nuage, it's like an external SDM provider, so the entire data plane is controlled by Nuage, and you can kind of plug as many OpenStacks as you like really into Nuage, and you offload all the networking to Nuage. So what's that's allowed us to do is basically we'd have had a lot of trouble if we'd had to do an in place upgrade, so I've actually been to one of the groups this week, quite a lot of people were talking about upgrades and just like all the nightmares it's caused. I know it's getting better as like the releases come out, but what we were able to do is kind of building new, an entirely new OpenStack cloud on the side of, so we've kind of turned it kind of an immutable OpenStack, so your OSB 7 cloud is there, we built this new OSB 10. But they're both circ into the same networking, so the same Nuage SDN. And the way our developers deploy their applications, I guess you want to see this in more detail, we've done presentations at these summits in the past, but kind of in short, every deployment we do immutable deployments as well, so for every deployment we'll create a new subnet within Nuage, and kind of do rolling update of your VMs that are on that new subnet into like a VIP which is kind of where the constant is, so all the traffic's come in to that VIP then you just flip things in and out below it when you do a deployment, so what that basically means is from a developers point of view, when they're migrating from OSB 7 to OSB 10 they'll essentially spin up new networks and new VMs in OSB 10 and that deployment pipeline will kind of just seamlessly, everything else will stay the same because the networking doesn't change. So we don't have to have any downtime on the data plane or the control plane. Which is really beneficial for us 'cause the way, I guess this is I'll just describe the way developers do deployments like we rely heavily on the OpenStack API being available. You pay a cost in that you, so you need extra hardware to do that I guess, but yeah we found it is something that's worked for us. >> John: Anything else with the networking and specifically that you all are running, the load balancing or resiliency that you need to have for your apps? >> Dave: Yeah so one of the things was, so it's kind of another problem there were trying to solve with this whole project, this new OpenStack platform is that historically Betfair, as it was at the time, had always run out of a single data-center. But we had another site, but it was mainly kind of a development environments right in there. So the company thought why don't we just have, we should just have both DCs for resiliency, try and run things in like an active-active configuration. Which is fine for external customer facing applications where we've had an external load balance server that can point traffic between the two DCs. But then the question is what do you do with internal apps? So this is what led us to use Avi Networks, which is kind of a cloud native load balancing technology, so we've been using to provide like GSLB internal laps, so basically we'll load balance traffic between the two data-centers so it gets deployed within your OpenStack environment, has a really neat integration with Nuage, the Nuage SDN layer, and will resolve you to whichever data-center is appropriate at that time. So if you have a full data-center outtage, you should be able to go "Okay, point stuff over there". >> John: So it makes you and the networking team or the IT team into the heroes not the villains, you're usually the people saying "No" or "We can't do that". >> I guess so, I guess so yeah you're probably right. It's cool technology though. I guess that we're very lucky and that we're given the opportunity by the people at the company to experiment with new things, so even though we're about stability but we're also about trying to push things forward in terms of what technology to use. >> Stu: Dave I'm curious how kind of the hybrid or multi-cloud type of environments fit into what you're doing today, give us the update there. >> Dave: Yeah so that's something very in our radar at the moment I guess it's, yeah it's what everybody's doing, looking to how you can have this hybrid cloud model. So I think, going back three years again, at that time, being like an online betting company, it's a highly regulated business and only at that point it was really possible to kind of put some of this stuff into the public cloud, it seems like things have come a long way, so it's something we're looking at at the moment, we're evaluating different solutions, different vendors like the Googles, AWSs, and seeing or even like some OpenStack public clouds and seeing maybe how could we migrate some workloads out into the public cloud, how do we want to that, to give us more resiliency, and also as I was saying about our spiky traffic, it just makes a lot of sense to be able to say burst out into whichever public cloud vendor on a Saturday when the football's on to deal with that peak load. So it's something we're very much looking at at the moment. But yeah no formal decisions as of yet. Unless they've done something while I've been away. >> John: With containers here at the show, lots of different threads right? Containers, Edge, the OpenDev track, things like that. Anything else, we've talked about Kata, anything else that came up that was interesting here that you just watch Kubernetes and container track as well? >> Dave: So I guess in terms of containers it's, sitting in the Keynotes on Monday you would, if you weren't watching if you were just listening, you probably wouldn't know you were at an OpenStack Summit right since there's as much Kubernetes container stuff as there is OpenStack. It's interesting so we've kind of been doing... Again, similar to the public cloud conversation, it's something that's very relevant to us at the moment, we've done kind of a few proof-of-concept ideas, evaluating different solutions, so we have like running a Cube cluster ourself, obviously we have a strong relationship with Red Hat that we've kind of explored to using OpenShift maybe, and then come the networking layer you can integrate with Nuage which would be really cool for us so it'll allow us to do kind of the all the networking, access control mechanisms as we do for our virtual machines. And again this is also something in the whole public cloud conversation is well if wanted to containers in the public cloud as well like you have all the different offerings, would we want to run our own, in like an AWS or something? Or maybe go to someone like Google where you have that supported self-service model I suppose. But yeah at the moment it's kind of at those stages so I think Steve did a presentation on the Kubernetes stuff like a PCO we done at the last Summit. But yeah still at the moment still want to make some firm decisions about which direction we're going to go but a lot of the developers a very keen for this and obviously for guys like us we all know the value of it so I think at the moment because we had that focus on stability we should now have a period of time where we're able to kind of look at all this stuff a bit more, hopefully get some container solutions into production which would be awesome. >> Stu: Dave Buckley we really appreciate you giving us the update, love to be able to do some of those longitudinal case studies as to where you've been where you're going, what you're thinking about. Be sure to check out thecube.net, you can actually search for Patty Power Betfair, see some of those previous interviews from Dave's peers. Loads more interviews there as well as all the shows we're going to be at in the future where hope you come by and say "Hi". For John Troyer I'm Stu Miniman, thanks so much for watching theCUBE. >> (electro-dance music) >> (soft piano)

>> (Narrator) Live from Vancouver, Canada, it's The Cube, covering OpenStack Summit North America 2018, brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack Foundation, and its Ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman with my co-host John Troyer and you're watching The Cube, worldwide leader in tech coverage, and this is OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. Happy to welcome to the program, first-time guest Melvin Hillsman, who's the governance board member of OpenLab, which we got to hear about in the keynote on Monday. Thanks so much for joining us. >> Thanks for having me. >> Alright, so Melvin, we were given, start us off with a little bit about your background, what brought you to the OpenStack community, and we'll go from there. >> Sure, yeah, so my background is in Linux system administration and my getting involved in OpenStack was more or less seeing the writing on the wall as it relates to virtualization and wanting to get an early start in understanding how things would pan out over the course of some years. So I probably started OpenStack maybe three or four so years ago. I was probably later to the party than I wanted to be, but through that process, started working at Rackspace first and that's how I really got more involved into OpenStack in particular. >> Yeah, you made a comment, though. The writing on the wall for virtualization. Explained that for a sec. >> So for me, I was at a shared hosting company and we weren't virtualizin' anything. We were using traditional servers, dedicated servers, installing hundreds of customers on those servers. And so, at one point, what we started doing was we would take a dedicated server, we would create a virtual machine on it, but we would use most of the resources of that dedicated server, and so what allowed that shared hosting was to tear stuff down and recreate it, but it was very manual process and so, of course, the infrastructure service and orchestration around that OpenStack was becoming the de facto standard and way of doing it, and so I didn't want to try to learn manually, or fix something up internally, I wanted to go where OpenStack was being highly developed a lot and people working on it in their day to day jobs, which is why I went to Rackspace. >> Okay, one of the things we look at, this is a community here, so it takes people from lots of different backgrounds, and some of them do it on their spare time, some of them are paid by larger companies to participate, so to tell us about OpenLab, itself, and how your company participates there. >> Sure, so I started, well I'm at Huawei now, but I was at Rackspace and that's kind of how I got more involved in the community and there I started working on testing things above the OpenStack ecosystem, so things that people want to build on top of OpenStack and during that process Huawei reached out to me and was like hey you know you're doing a great job here, and I was like yeah I would love to come and explore more of how we can increase this activity in the community at large. And so Oakland Lab was essentially born out of that, which the OpenStack community, they deliver the OpenStack API's, and they kind of stop there, you know. Everything above that is, you do that on your own, more or less, and so also, as a chair of the user committee, again, just being more concerned about the people who are using stuff, OpenLab was able, was available to facilitate me having access to hardware and access to people who are using things outside OverStack in use cases, et cetera, where we want to test out more integrated tools working with OpenStack and different versions of OpenStack. And so that's essentially what OpenLab is-- >> So in OpenLab, projects come together and it's basically, it's an Interop, boy, in the networking world, they've had the Interop plug and plug fest for a long time, but, in essence, projects come together and you integrate them and start, you invite them in and they integrate and start to test them. Starting with, I mean, I see, for this release, Terraform and Kubernetes. >> Yeah, so a lot of people want to to use Kubernetes, right? And as an OpenStack operator you essentially, you don't really want to go and learn all the bits of Kubernetes, necessarily, and so, but you want to use Kubernetes and you want to work seamlessly with OpenStack and you want to use the API's that you're used to using with OpenStack and so we work very heavily on the external cloud provider for OpenStack, enabling Cinder V3 for containers that you're spinning up in Kubernetes, so that they have seamless integration, you don't have to try to attach your volumes, they are automatically attached. You don't have to figure out what your load balancing is going to to look like. You use Octavia, which is load balancing service for OpenStack, very tightly integrated and things, you know, as you spin things up, they work as you as you would expect and so then all the other legacy applications and all the things you're used to doing with OpenStack, you bring on Kubernetes and you essentially do things the way you've been doing them before, with just an additional layer. >> Yeah, now I wonder if you can talk a little bit about the providers and the users, you know how do they get engaged, to and give us a little flavor around those. >> Yeah, so you get engaged, you go to OpenLabtesting.org and there's two options. One, is you can test out your applications and tools, by clicking get started, you fill that out. And what's great about open lab is that we actually reach out and we talk with you, we consult with you, per se, because we have a lot of variation in hardware that's available to us and so we want to figure out the right hardware that you need in order to do the tests that you want, so that we can get the output as it relates to that integration that will, of course, educate and inform the community at large of whether or not it's working and been validated. And, again, so as a person who wants to support OpenLab or for a provider, for example, who wants to support OpenLab, you click on the support OpenLab link, you fill out a form and you tell us you know, do you want to provide more infrastructure, do you want to talk with us about how clouds are being architected, integrations are being architected, things that you're seeing in the open source use cases that may not be getting the testing that they need and you're willing to work with engineers from other companies around that, so individual testers and then companies who may bring a number of testers together around a particular use case. >> Now, you're starting to publish some of the results of Interop testing and things like that. How is open lab, how does it produce its results, is it eventually going to be producing white papers and things like that or dashboards or what's your vision there? >> Yeah, so we produce a very archaic dashboard right now, but we're working with the CNCF to, if you go to CNCF.CI, and they have a very nice dashboard that kind of shows you a number of projects and whether or not they work together. And so it's open source, so what we want to do is work with that team to figure out how do we change the logos and the git repos, to how to driving those red and green, success or failure icons that are there, but they're relevant to the test that we're doing in OpenLab, so yeah. So we definitely want to have a dashboard that's very easy to decipher what tests are failing in or passing. >> Looking forward, what kinds of projects are you most interested in getting involved? >> Right now, very much Kubernetes, of course. We're really focusing on multi architecture, again, as a result of our work with Kubernetes and driving full conformance and multi architecture. That's kind of the wheelhouse at this time. We're open for folks to give us a lot of different use cases, like we were starting to look at some edge stuff, how can we participate there, we're starting looking at FPGA's and GPU's, so a lot different, we don't have a full integration in a lot of different areas, just yet, but we are having those conversations. >> So, actually, I spent a bunch of years, when I worked on the vendor side, living in an Interrupt lab, and the most valuable things were not figuring out what worked, but what broke, so what kind of things, you know, as you're working through this, what learnings back do you share with the community, both the providers and users? Big stumbling blocks that you can help people, give a red flag, or say you know, avoid these type of things. >> Yeah, exactly what you just said. You know, what's good is some of our stuff is geographically dispersed, so we can start to talk about if, what's the latency look like? You may, within that few square miles that you're operating and doing things, it works great, but when I'm sending something across the water how, is your product still moving quickly, is the latency too bad that we can't, I can't create a container over here because it takes too long, so one example of looking at something fail as it relates to that is we're talking with Octavia folks to see, if I spin up a lot of containers am I going to therefore create a lot of load balancers and if I create a lot of load balancers I'm creating a lot of VM's, or am I creating a lot of containers or are things breaking apart, so we need to dig a little bit further to understand what is and is not working with the integrations we're currently working on and then again we're exploring GPV, GPUs just landed more or less, that was a part of the keynote as well, and so now we're talking about, well, let's do some of that testing. The software, the code, is there but is it usable? And so that's one area we want to start playing around with. >> Okay, one of the other things in the keynote's got mentioned was Zul, the CIDT tool, how's that fitting into the OpenLab? >> Yeah, we use Zul as our gating, so what's great about Zul is that you can interac6t with projects from different SCM's, so we have some projects that live in github, some that utilize Garrote, some that utilize gitlab, and Zul has applicability where it can talk to different, it can talk across these different SCM's, and if you have a patch that depends on a patch in another another pod, so a patch on one project in one SCM can depend on a patch in another project, in a different SCM, and so what's great about Zul is that you can say, hey I'm depending on th6at, so before this patch lands, check to make sure this stuff works over there, so if it succeeds there and it's a dependency then you basically confirm that succeeds there and then now I can run the test here, and it passes here as well, so you know that you can use both of those projects together again, in an integration. Does it makes sense? Hopefully I'm making it very clear, the power there with the cross SCM integration. >> Yeah, Melvin, you've had a busy week, here, at the show. Any, you know, interesting things you learned this week or something that you heard from a customer that you thought, oh boy we got to, you know, get this into our lab or a road map or, you know-- >> The ARM story, the multi architecture is, I feel like that's really taking off. We've had discussions with quite a few folks around that, so yeah, that for me, that's the next thing that I think we're really going to concentrate a little bit harder on is, again, figuring out if there are some problems, because mostly it's been just x86, but we need to start exploring what's breaking as we add more to multi architecture. >> Melvin, no shortage of new things to test and play with, and every customer always brings some unique spins on things, so appreciate you giving us the update on OpenLab, thanks so much for joining us. >> You're Welcome. Thanks for having me. >> From John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman, thanks so much for watching The Cube. (electronic music)

(upbeat electronic music) >> Announcer: Live from Vancouver, Canada, it's The Cube, covering OpenStack Summit North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to The Cube's coverage of OpenStack Summit 2018 here in beautiful Vancouver, British Columbia. I'm Stu Miniman, with my co-host John Troyer. Happy to welcome back to the program, it's been a couple of years, actually, Boris Renski, who is the co-founder and CMO of Merantis And also is on the keynote stage for the OpenDev part of this show here. Boris, great to see you, thanks for joining us. >> Good to see you guys, and great to be back. Thank you for having me back. >> Absolutely, so we're going to talk about OpenDev, we're going to talk about a few things, but let's start with Merantis, your company. I think back to some of my first experiences at the OpenStack show. First of all, Merantis always does great keynotes, I remember there was dancing on stage, there's fun T-shirts I actually coveted. I don't go after swag much, but it was like the Heisenburg 99.999%-- >> I remember that T-shirt, yeah. >> Pure T-shirt for the Breaking Bad fans out there, to date myself on this, but always bring some energy and excitement and Merantis was one of the companies really super glued to OpenStack, so bring us up to 2018. When I think of Merantis, what should I be thinking of and let's get into it from there. >> Yeah, so let me see. We are still super glued to OpenStack. We did go through some changes and some evolutions. I think given how long it's been since we've talked, the notable changes have been a change to our delivery approach and with it some of the changes to actually the underlying software stack, so the most common thing is that we've evolved Merantis OpenStack into what we now call Merantis Cloud Platform and the key difference is how we approach actually the life cycle management of the OpenStack itself. Before our tool for installing and basically updating OpenStack was Fuel which was very prescriptive and monolithic type of delivery method and what we realized is most of it, large customers that we have, they have a fairly heterogeneous reference architectures that you have to cater to and you have to be able to do that in such a way that it is cost effective, so we've rebuilt Fuel for to a new tool called DriveTrain which uses a continuous delivery pattern to manage and deliver updates to OpenStack and with that we've also tweaked out delivery model a little bit. Before we just followed traditional distro-model where we just throw out our software out there. You can download and play with it and call us and we'll support you. When it comes to complicated distributive systems like OpenStack, that are life-cycled following a continuous delivery pattern, most of the companies simply don't have the in-house talent and skills to just take it and start deriving value, so we've moved to what we refer to as a build, operate, transfer model where we actually come in and we set up the environment, we manage an environment to an SLA, give a customer four nines SLA on the up time of the OpenStack environment we're managing and after a period of a year, give the customer an opportunity to gradually take over the operations and by operations I mean, patches, updates, et cetera until after some time we just completely go away or we just take a role of a software support vendor, effectively. So that's on the core business side. Since we haven't talked in a while, so it's a little bit of a long update, sorry. >> Stu: Yeah, yeah, it's okay. >> The thing that we've been talking a lot about recently has been the new thing we launched in beta about a month and a half ago called Merantis application platform, so Merantis Cloud Platform is OpenStack, is our core business. Merantis Application Platform is a new thing that we have launched about month and a half ago that is based on Spinnaker and Spinnaker is this continuous delivery open source tool that's been built by Netflix, originally. >> Yeah, so before we get into the OpenDev and Spinnaker and all that stuff, want your viewpoint on the OpenStack piece, so really appreciate that update. There were years that we thought, oh, it's the battle for who's going to do distributions and as you said, it's not that easy and maybe we had poor expectations as an industry as to where we could take it and where it should be used, so how should people be thinking about OpenStack in general? Can you give us one or two of the key use cases you see in your customer base? >> Yeah, so, I think that what we realized is that when it comes to general purpose cloud, so to speak, there is not tremendous value, at least among the customers that we have the opportunity to interface with, to use OpenStack. You have something that's already in place and you don't touch it and that's usually VMware or you want something new general purpose, people go to public cloud, but there is an enormous opportunity for what we refer to as tuned stacks or clouds that are tuned to particular business use cases and this is where I think is an opportunity for OpenStack to excel and this is historically where we as Merantis been actually delivering value to our customers. So speaking of the use cases, our customer base is split, we split it into enterprise and telco. More than half of the customers, actually, are from the telco side. So telco clouds, there is a variety of use cases. Typically those use cases are function of the, and the overarching use case is NFE, virtually network function virtualization. The specificity and the reference architecture of the actual infrastructure environment is a function of the VNF that is running on that cloud and in some instances if you were to categorize this for telco space, you can think of it in terms of a big cloud for VNFs that don't need to be close to the edge and those that are stretching out to the smaller footprint all the way to the edge and those are vastly different reference architectures and you do different performance optimizations and tuning and this is something that you can only do with something like OpenStack. Now when it comes to the enterprise side, the actually emerging use case that we've been seeing quite a bit of is HPC, because, again, HPC is full of purpose-built equipment, you do networking differently, you do a lot of things differently and a lot of the times the general purpose public clouds don't work for it, so for HPC again, we have a set of reference architectures that are modeled within the Drivetrain that we can just deploy fairly easily out of the box that cater specifically to the HPC use case and the enterprise. >> Boris, do you think HPC then either includes now or evolves into ML and AI as well, again, bespoke hardware, very specific use case? >> Yes, eventually. I think that there is an opportunity there for some of the reference architectures and deployment topologies currently used for HPC to evolve towards some of the AI use cases. Again, I think that, when it comes to enterprise and AI, it's a bit early, so yeah. >> Boris, the tagline of the company is, The Managed Open Cloud Company, and you talked about managing, being a managed cloud. That's been a fascinating development over the last few years. We're seeing it at the OpenStack level and for instance at the kubernetes level as well. Can you talk a little bit about that approach and who are the customers that need that entry ramp or accelerator for these private cloud installations? >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that... There are two types of ways to implement infrastructure, implement the cloud. There is those that are trying to, they are looking at public cloud and they are saying, okay, this is like, I see what Amazon's doing, what Google's doing is great. I want the same thing and I want it in-house, for security reasons, for whatever, compliance reasons, doesn't matter. So all of these guys that fall into this category, I think for them to become successful with the cloud on-prem, should follow the managed approach. Again, I'm a little bit biased on this in that I'm selling this-- >> That was always the hit against running your own private cloud is you didn't have, one did not have the expertise in-house-- >> Boris: Yeah, that's exactly correct. >> That's what we need. >> First of all, the whole evolution between Fuel to Drivetrain and using the CD pattern to life-cycling the infrastructure stack is something that there isn't talent out there, there isn't DNA out there and enterprises simply are not able to just go ahead and start doing it and the whole model that, when you go to Amazon, you just have this cloud that is continuously updated for you, you don't have to worry about anything, so this model implies that you focus on delivering the end service rather than delivering the software. When you go to Amazon, you don't get software, you don't get to pick and choose. You just get certain reference architecture that is delivered for you. The guys that want to replicate the Amazon on-premise effectively, in my view, have to be gradually on ramped onto that. You can't just grab the software, do DIY, and expect you'll have an Amazon. There's a second category and the second category is basically like the software guys, the guys that, they are not looking for Amazon, they are looking for cheaper VMware, which is a different experience. I have my own team, I have my opps guys, VMware is great, but it's too expensive, I don't want be locked into it, give me something that is different. So there is value in that, but this is not the segment of the market that we are going after and I don't think that cheaper VMware is what most people refer to when they talk about cloud. So I hope that answers the question. >> Absolutely, so you brought up Spinnaker before. Want to get your thoughts on the things usually, typically on top of OpenStack, but kubernetes, Spinnaker, containers in general. What's Merantis' position on this. What are you hearing from your customers and would love to tease out some of the Spinnaker stuff a bit more. >> Yeah, yeah. Spinnaker thing is fairly new for us. We've been tracking the space and Spinnaker in particular, probably for a year, although have come out publicly just recently about it. The reason why the space was interesting to us was because I think that everybody who is undergoing digital transformation and embracing cloud as a byproduct of it, is really after being able to run the company like a startup, being able to release faster, being able to release more often and in fact, when we'd come to our customers our opening pitch even for OpenStack has always been, buy OpenStack, that'll help you build software faster. On the one hand, it's kind of like a cool pitch, on the other hand, I think everybody in the company, including myself, we're not entirely comfortable with making that leap. OpenStack means I can have an API for my VM's and maybe containers, release software faster. How do you connect the two, right? So, we decided to, in trying to solve this problem of helping companies release software faster, for once rid ourselves of our existing business and our infrastructure centric views of the world and unpack the problem and see what are the real big issues with releasing software faster today. What we realized is that one of the biggest bottlenecks is actually the continuous delivery part because when it comes to continuous delivery or even not to use fancy terms just to, deploying anything to production in the enterprise. It's a very complicated process that requires coordination between multiple teams like the application team, the SRE team, the SEC opps team, all of these teams are using different tools and the handoff process and the handshakes between are very loose, generally so a developer can build something very quickly, but for it to hit production environment, and for the enterprise to actually get feedback from the customers on this, it takes a very long time. So we started thinking about how do you actually shorten that cycle? What can you do? With that kind of frame of mind, we've come across Spinnaker and what we realized is that Spinnaker is actually, in a sense, to continuous delivery what OpenStack is to infrastructure, because the reason why OpenStack became popular is because it's effectively, on one hand, has all these plugins for diverse infrastructure, and on the other hand you can automate the orchestration process of bringing up a VM, instead of having your server people come in, put in the server, your operating people come in and install operating system, the network people come in, configure the network, et cetera, it's actually built a workflow and orchestrated the whole thing automatically without necessarily requiring companies to throw away their existing infrastructure investment. And if you go to the CD space, the situation's kind of similar. You have all these different teams, you have all these different tools, and you need to find a way to automate and orchestrate this process so that you minimize the number of human steps and this is exactly the problem space that Spinnaker's been tackling, so it's a portent of this plugability and having a single API for the entire CD chain and the best implementation would be the one like Netflix has is where the actual developers are able to just deploy to production directly. All of this orchestration between all the testing and all the stuff is done by Spinnaker behind the scenes, so we feel that actually tackling that problem and bringing this innovation into the enterprise is going to be something very dramatic at producing something at an order of magnitude performance gains for our customers. >> Of course, one of the things the foundation announced was the Zule CI/CD. Can you help us reconcile Zule and Spinnaker? >> Zule is from what I would characterize it, primarily deals with VCI side of the spectrum and I mentioned this in my talk, so one of the things we learned as a company is if you unpack CI/CD, which most people, at least in the infrastructure space look at it like it's one thing, like oh CI/CD thing, it's like one thing, basically. In reality, it's not one thing, it's completely separate things, so CI primarily has to do with actually building the code into something that can be deployed, into some deployable artifact and CD takes on from there. So Zule deals primarily with the CI part and it deals with it in a particular way for a set of specific use cases, so Zule emerged as the CI infrastructure for OpenStack Project itself and OpenStack is a very peculiar project in that, there's thousands of developers with different viewpoints on the world that are highly distributed, building many different components that are loosely coupled that all need to come together somehow. So you need to have distributed CI systems that talk to each other and you can merge all of this code and test it all together, so that use case is very relevant for large open source projects and it's probably relevant for enterprises who want to adopt similar type of practices for software development internally, so if you want to some extent de-silo many distributed Dev teams that you have internally as an enterprise and overlay standard process for the CI piece of it for everybody, I think Zule is a good solution and Spinnaker then comes after that, as an additive that does the deployment part. >> John: Yep, that makes sense. >> Alright, for us unfortunately we're running low on time, not going to have much time to dig in to the OpenDev piece. Last question I actually wanted to ask you is what do you say to the naysayers out there. People that aren't here sometimes tend to throw stones at OpenStack failed, OpenStack is dead, all the VCs pulled out years ago. Merantis has been through it and you've got customers. We've had a good experience this week, but it's a different OpenStack than it was a few years ago, so just if you could give us the final word on that. >> Yeah, so, good question. I think that... Basically, OpenStack was at this insane hype back in the day and it's natural to expect that the higher the hype, the bigger going to be the drop, but I think that all technologies ultimately, they can not sustain the hype. You have to level out at a certain point that is equal to the true customer value that you are delivering. So I think that the naysaying is a function of very high hype that has now leveled to the... What it should be, really, in terms of the value being delivered by OpenStack. And there's this pool, it generated this big pool of the naysayers that are walking around and saying that it is dead and the reason why there's the pool is because indeed there is a lot of investment, there is enormous amount of startups that kind of like, ah, we are the cool guys, we are going to change the world, we are going to kill Amazon, whatever, that now are completely gone and now of course they are naysayers and saying that the whole thing's dead, but on the flip side of that, if you just walk around the summit, you can see that there's many more users, there's many more customers that are actually talking about real use cases and then the companies that did stay and stick around, like ourselves, like Red Hat, like Canonical and SUSE, actually, are seeing continued growth and increased usage, so just a nice closing comment is our biggest customer for OpenStack is AT&T. We've been with them for five years now and they've been very excited about it and then, no it's all going to be dead, it's going to be containers now, and nuh nuh nuh, but despite all of that, the usage is continuing to grow and there is 10,000 nodes plus now running physical servers with OpenStack and it continues to work and it just, workloads are moving to it and AT&T is not the only one. There is plenty more that are following this trend, so it's a very long answer to your question, but I remain optimistic. For us it's still very much core of our business and we're continuing to see growth and usage and we are sticking around and sticking to OpenStack. >> Alright, well Boris Renski, it's, as you know, one of our earliest taglines was helping to extract the signal from the noise. We appreciate you helping us to understand the reality outside the hype. So for John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman, more coverage here from the OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. Thank you for watching The Cube. (upbeat electronic music) (soft piano music)

>> Announcer: Live from Vancouver, Canada, it's theCUBE, covering OpenStack North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. I'm Stu Miniman with my cohost for the week, John Troyer. Happy to welcome to the program first-time guest Ildiko Vancsa, coming off the edge keynote presentation this morning. She is the ecosystem technical lead with the Edge Computing Group as part of the OpenStack Foundation. Thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you. >> Coming into this show, edge is one of those things that it was actually pretty exciting to talk about because edge is not only super hot, but when I thought back to previous shows, this is the sixth year we've had theCUBE here and my fifth year doing it, it's like, wait, I've been talking to all the Telcos for years here. NFV was one of those use cases, and when you connect the dots, it's like oh, edge, of course. I said this conference is actually hipster when it comes to edge. We were totally covering it well before we called it that. So, explain to us your role in the foundation and what led to the formation of this track. >> Yeah, so I'm the ecosystem technical lead within the foundation, which is basically a role that belongs under the business development team. So, I'm basically building connections with our ecosystem members. I'm trying to help them succeed with OpenStack, both as software package and as a community. We are embracing open source, of course, so I'm also trying to advocate for involvement in open source because I think that's a key. Like, you know, picking up an open source software component and use it, that's a great start, but if you really want to be successful with it and you want to be able to successfully build it into your business model, then getting involved in the community, both enhancing the software and maintaining of the software, that's really key. So, my role is also onboarding companies as well to be active members of the community, and my focus is shifting toward edge computing. The history of edge computing in OpenStack basically started last May when Beth Cohen from Verizon described their use case, which is OpenStack in a tiny box in production cycle, wow. So that was also a little bit of an eye-opener for us as well, that yes, it's telecom. It's 5G, but this is the thing that's called edge, and maybe this is something that we should also look deeper into. So, we went to San Francisco last September, OpenDev, 200 people, architects, software developers trying to figure out what edge computing is. I think we had the question at every single session, someone asked that, okay, yeah so, what did you mean exactly when you said edge? Because from the nature of the architecture, like, you have the central cloud and then the sides on the different-- >> John: There are several edges depending on how far you want to go. >> Exactly. >> For you and OpenStack, what does edge mean, or all the above? >> With OpenStack, so after OpenDev when we realized that it's not really a well-defined term, we wrote up a white paper. It's at OpenStack the role/edge. It's a short one, really to just set the ground for what edge computing is. And what we came up with is, so don't imagine like a two-sentence definition for edge computing because I still strongly believe that doesn't exist, and anyone who claims it, that's not true. What we did with the white paper is basically we set characteristics and criteria that defines cloud edge computing per se, like what people are talking about when you're moving out the compute and then working closer to the edge. Like what that means from the bandwidth perspective, from how you will manage it, what that means for security, and all these sort of things. And you can basically characterize what edge means. So we rather described these layers and how far we go, and as far as like, you know, the very end edge device and like the IOT sensors, that's not a target of OpenStack. So, OpenStack itself is infrastructure as a service, so our Edge Computing Group is still staying on that layer. The Edge Computing Group itself is focusing on the angles, what edge brings onto the table, all these requirements, you know, collecting the use cases and trying to figure out what's missing, what we need to implement. >> If can repeat and maybe I'll get it right or wrong. The idea is at a cell tower or at a remote office or branch office or some closet somewhere, there is a full set of OpenStack running, maybe a minimal set of OpenStack, but it's live, it's updatable. You can update services on it. You can update the actual OpenStack itself, and it doesn't need the spoke hardware necessarily, but it's now updatable and part of a bigger multi-cloud infrastructure from some sort of service entity or enterprise. >> Yeah. >> Is that fair? >> I think that's fair. So, there's OpenStack itself that people know very well, a lot of projects. So when we talk about edge, obviously we don't want to say that, okay, pick the whole thing and install all the 60 projects because that's really not suitable for edge. So what, for example, the group is looking into, that which OpenStack components are essential for edge. And also the group is defining small edge, medium edge, what that means from hardware footprint perspectives, so just to figure out what the opportunities are there, what will fit, what will not fit. OpenStack itself is very modular by today, so you can pick up the services that you need. So what we discussed, for example, this week is Keystone, identity, you need it of course. So how much that fits into the edge scenarios. And I think the main conclusion of the forum session yesterday was that, yeah, Keystone supports Federation. We talked through the cases, and it seems like that it's kind of there. So, we now need a few people who will sit down, put together the environment, and start testing it because that's when it comes out that, you know, almost there, but there a few things to tweak. But basically the idea is what you described, pick up the component, put it there, and work with it. We also have another project called Cyborg, which is fairly new. That's for hardware acceleration, so it is providing a framework to plug in GPUs, FPJs, and these sort of, a bit more specialized hardware which will be really useful for edge use cases to OpenStack. So that's for example something that China Mobile and the OPNFV Edge Cloud Group is looking into to use, so I really hope that we will get there this year to test it in the OPNFV Pharos Labs in action. So we also have pretty great cross-community collaboration on trying to figure this whole thing out. >> Yeah, it often helps if we have examples to talk about to really explain this. Beth Cohen, we spoke with her last year and absolutely caught our attention. Got a lot of feedback from the community on it. Had Contron on earlier this week talking about, John was saying, here's some small device there with a little blade and is running pieces of OpenStack there to be able to run. Anything from the keynote or, boy, I think there's 40 sessions that you've got here. If you can, give us a couple of examples of some of the use cases that we're seeing to kind of bring this edge to reality. >> Example use cases is, we just heard this morning, for example, someone from the textile industry like how to detect issues with the fabric. So this is like one new manufacturing use case. I also heard another one, which is not checking the fabric itself, but basically the company who manufactures those machines that they are using to create the fabric, so they would like to have a central cloud and have it connected to the factories. So, being able to monitor how the machines are doing, how they can improve those machines, and also within the factory to monitor all the circumstances. Because for all the chemical processes, it's really important that the temperature and everything else is just, you know, clicks because otherwise all your fabrics will have to go to trash. So, that's manufacturing. A lot of telecom 5G, obviously that is really, really heavy because that's the part of the industry which is there today, so with 5G, all those strict requirements. This is really what we are mainly focusing on today. We are not specializing anything for telecom and in 5G use cases, but we want to make sure that all our components fit into that environment as well. In the white paper, for example, you also could see the retail use case. I'm not sure whether that will be exactly on stage this week, but that is also a great example on like Walmart with the lot of stores around, so how you manage those stores because they're also not wanting to do everything centrally. So, they would like to move the functionality out. What if the network connectivity is cut? They still have to be able to operate the store as nothing happened. So, there are a lot of segments of the industry who already have kind of really well-defined use cases. And what we see is that there's many overlapping between the requirements from the different segments that we're going to address. >> Are we seeing things like AI and ML coming up in these conversations also? >> Yes, like I think it was the manufacturing use case when I heard that they are planning to use that, and it's popping up. I think as far as our group is concerned, we are more looking into, I don't know, let's say lower-level requirements like how you maintain and operate the hundreds and thousands of edge sites, what happens with security, what happens with monitoring, what happens with all these sort of things. Like we have a new project rolling in under the foundation umbrella called Airship, which is basically deployment and lifecycle management, which is supposed to address one of the aspect that you were talking about on, okay, so how you manage this, how you upgrade this. And upgrade is, again, a really interesting question because I think I talked to someone yesterday who was like, yes, the Contron guys, they were saying that yeah, upgrade, it's really ambitious. So let say that maybe 18, 24 month or something like some kind of tech operator will decide to upgrade something out in the edge because it's out there, it's working, let's not touch this. So when we talk about upgrade, even that, I think, will depend on the bits of the industry that, what pace they will decide to take. >> Are there any particular surprises or learnings that you've had this year after talking with this community for a week now? You said, well, last year, I was very impressed last year when they got up on stage and talked about that. That kind of expanded my mind a little bit. You've been working with this now for a year, this whole track and forum sessions. Anything you're excited about taking to the future or learnings or surprises that, oh, this is really going to work or anything like that? Any parts of it that are really interesting? You talked about security upgrades. We've talked about a lot of the technical components, but it seems like it's working. >> I think at this point, at least on my end, I think I'm over the surprise phase. So what surprises me the most is how many groups there are out there who are trying to figure out what this whole edge thing is. And what we need to really focus on among the technical requirements is that how we are working together with all these groups just to make sure that the integration between the different things that we are all developing and working on is smooth. So like, we've been working together with the OPNFV community for a while now. It's a really fruitful relationship between us. Like seeing OpenStack being deployed in a full-stack environment and being tested, that's really priceless. And we are planning to do the same thing with edge as well, and we are also looking into ONAP, Aquino, Et-see-mac, so looking into the open source groups, looking into the standardization and really just trying to ensure that when we talk about open infrastructure, that that really is designed and developed in a way that integrates well with the other components. It's synchronized with the standardization activities because I think especially in case of edge, when we say interoperability, that's a level higher than what we call the interoperability on the telecom level I think. Like when you just imagine one operator network and applications from other providers popping up in that network, and components that just realizing the network popping up from different vendors. And this whole thing has to work together. So, I think OpenStack and open infrastructure has a really big advantage there compared to any proprietary solution because we have to address this, I think, really big challenge, and it's also a really important challenge. >> Ildiko, really appreciate you giving us all the updates here on the edge track, the keynote, definitely one of the areas that is capturing our attention and lots of people out there. So, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you for the opportunity. >> All right, for John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman. Lots more coverage here from the OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. Thanks for watching theCUBE.

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: Live from Vancouver, Canada. It's theCUBE covering OpenStack Summit North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back. This is theCUBE's exclusive coverage of OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. I'm Stu Miniman with my co-host John Troyer. Happy to welcome back to the program two CUBE alums. We have Alan Clark, who's the board chair of the OpenStack Foundation and in the CTO office of SUSE. >> Yep, thank you. >> Thanks for joining us again. It's been a few years. >> It's been a while, I appreciate being back. >> And Lew Tucker, the vice chair of the OpenStack Foundation and vice president and CTO of Cisco. Lew, it's been weeks. >> Exactly right. >> All right. >> I've become a regular here. >> Yeah, absolutely. So, first of all, John Furrier sent his regard. He wishes he was here, you know. John's always like come on Lew and I, everybody, we were talking about when this Kubernetes thing started and all the conferences, so it's been a pleasure for us to be here. Six years now at this show, as well as some of the remote days and other things there. It's been fun to watch the progressions of-- >> Isn't it amazing how far we've come? >> Yeah, absolutely. Here's my first question for you, Alan. On the one hand, I want you to talk about how far we've gone. But the other thing is, people, when they learn about something, whenever they first learn about it tends to fossilize in their head, this is what it is and always will be. So I think most people know that this isn't the Amazon killer or you know it's free VMware. That we talked about years ago. Bring us a little bit of that journey. >> Well, so, you know, it started with the basic compute storage and as we've watched open-source grow and adoption of open-source grow, the demands on services grow. We're in this transformation period where everything's growing and changing very rapidly. Open-source is driving that. OpenStack could not stay static. When it started, it solved a need, but the needs continued to grow and continued to change. So it's not surprising at all that OpenStack has grown and changed and will continue to grow and change. >> So Lew, it's been fascinating for me, you know. I've worked with and all these things with Cisco and various pieces for my entire career. You're here wearing the OpenStack @ Cisco shirt. And Cisco's journey really did through that to digital transformation themselves. When I talked to Rowan at Cisco Live Barcelona, the future of Cisco is as a software company. So, help set OpenStack into that kind of broader picture. >> Sure, I think one of the aspects of that is that we're seeing now it is becoming this multi-cloud world. And that we see all of our customers are running in the public cloud. They have their own private data centers. And what they're looking for is they want their whole development model and everything else to now become targeted towards that multi-cloud world. They're going to do services in the public cloud, they still have their private data center. OpenStack is a place for them to actually meet and run all their services 'cause now you can build your environment within your data center that makes it look very much like your public cloud, so your developers don't have two completely different mindsets. They have the same one, it's extracting resources on demand. And that one, we're putting on top of that other newer technology that's coming, such as Kubernetes. We've got a real consistency between those environments. >> Yeah, please Alan. >> I was going to say, it enables you to leverage your existing infrastructure so you don't want to make them, particularly those SUSE's customers, they don't want us to come in and say throw everything away, start afresh right? But at the same time, you've got to be able to embrace what's new and what's coming. We're talking about many new technologies here in OpenStack Summit today right? Containers and all sorts of stuff. A lot of those things are still very new to our customers and they're preparing for that. As Lew said, we're building that infrastructure. >> One of the things, as I'm thinking about it, some people look at, they look at codec containers and some of these pieces outside of the OpenStack project and they're like, well what's the Foundation doing? But I believe it should be framed, and please, please, I would love your insight on this, in that multi-cloud discussion because this is, it can't just be, well, this is how you build private. It needs to be, this is how you live in this multi-cloud environment. >> That's why I think, you're beginning to see us talk about open infrastructure. And this is using open-source software to use software to manage your infrastructure and build it out instead of configuration, cabling, having guys going out, plugging in, unplugging network ports and whatever. We want software and automations to do all that, so OpenStack is one of the cloud platforms. But these other projects are now coming into the Foundation, which also expand that notion of open infrastructure, and that's why we're seeing these projects expand. >> Lew's exactly right and it goes beyond that. Back in 2017, early 2017, we recognized, as a board, that it's not going to be just about the projects within OpenStack. We have to embrace our adjacent communities and embrace those technologies. So that's why you're hearing a lot about Kubernetes and containers and networking and all sorts of projects that are not necessarily being done within OpenStack but you're seeing how we're collaborating with all those other communities. >> And codec is a perfect example of that. Codec containers came out of those clear containers. It's now combining the best of both worlds, 'cause now you get the speed of containers bringing up, but you get the security and isolation of virtual machines. That's important in the OpenStack community, in our world, because that's what we want out of our clouds. >> Well you both have just mentioned community a few times. I saw one thing coming in to this conference, I'm so impressed by the prominence of community. It's up on stage from the first minutes of the first keynote. People, the call to action, the pleas, for the folks, some of us have been here years and years, for the new folks, please come meet us right? That's really inviting, it's very clear that this is a community. >> Yeah I was surprised, actually, 'cause we saw it when we were asked when up on stage how many people were here for the first time? More than half the audience raised their hand. >> Alan: I was surprised by that as well. >> That was the real surprise. And at the same time, we're seeing, increasingly, users of OpenStack coming in as opposed the people who are in core projects. We're seeing Progressive insurance coming in. We're seeing Adobe Marketing Cloud having over 100,000 cores running OpenStack. That's in addition to what we've had with Walmart and others so the real users are coming. So our communities, not just the developers but the users of OpenStack and the operators. >> That's always an interesting intention for an open-source project right. You have the open-source contributors, and then you have the users and operators. But here at the show right? All of these different technology tracks. Part of community is identity. And so, as the technical work has been split-off, and is actually at another event, these are the users. But it does, with all these other technology conversations, I wonder what the core identity of, I'm an OpenStack member, like what does that end up meaning in a world of open infrastructure? if the projects, if the OpenStack itself is more mature, and as we get up the letters of the alphabet towards Z, How do you all want to steer what it means to be a member of the OpenStack community. >> We met on Sunday as a joint leadership. So we had, it wasn't just a board meeting, it was a meeting with the technical committee, it was a meeting with the user committee. So we're very much pushing to make sure we have those high interactions, that the use cases are getting translated into requirements and getting translated into blueprints and so forth. We're working very, very hard to make sure we have that communication open. And I think one of the things that sets the OpenStack community apart is what we call our Four Opens. We base everything on our Four Opens and one of those is communication, transparency and communication. And that's what people are finding enticing. And one of the big reasons is I think they're coming to OpenStack to do that innovation and collaboration. >> We've seen the same thing with Linux, for example. Linux is no longer just the operating system when people think about the Linux community. Linux community is the operating system and then all of these other projects associated with them. That's the same thing that we're seeing with OpenStack. That's why we're continuing to see, wherever there's a need as people are deploying OpenStack and operating it and running it, all of these other open-source components are coming into it because that's what they really were running, that conglomerate of projects around it. >> Certainly, the hype cycle, and maybe Linux went through it's own hype cycle, back in the day and I'm from Silicon Valley. I think the hype cycle outside the community and what's actually happening on the ground here actually are meshed quite well. What I saw this week, like you said, real users, big users, infrastructure built into every bank, transport, telecom in the world. That's a global necessary part of the infrastructure of our planet. So outside of investment, things like that-- >> Well I hope you can help us get the message out. Because that is, a major thing that we see and we experience the conf, people who are not here. They still, then maybe look at OpenStack the way it was, maybe, four years ago, and it was difficult to deploy, and people were struggling with it, and there was a lot of innovation happening at a very, very fast rate. Well now, it's proven, it's sort of industrial grade, it's being deployed at a very large scale across many, many industries. >> Well it's interesting. Remember, Lew, when we were talking about ethernet fabrics. We would talk about some of SDN and some of these big things. Well, look sometimes these things are over-hyped. It's like, well, there's a certain class of the market who absolutely needs this. If I'm at Telco, and I sat here a couple of years ago, and was like, okay, is it 20 or 50 companies in the world that it is going to be absolutely majorly transformative for them and that's hugely important. If I'm a mid-sized enterprise, I'm still not sure how much I'm caring about what's happening here, no offense, I'd love to hear some points there. But what it is and what it isn't with targets, absolutely, there are massive, massive clouds. Go to China, absolutely. You hear a lot about OpenStack here. Coming across the US, I don't hear a lot about it. We've known that for years. But I've talked to cloud provider in Australia, we've talked to Europeans that the @mail who's the provider for emails for certain providers around the world. It's kind of like okay, what part of the market and how do we make sure we target that because otherwise, it's this megaphone of yeah, OpenStack, well I'm not sure that was for me. >> So, yeah, what's your thought? >> We're seeing a lot of huge variety of implementations, users that are deploying OpenStack. And yeah we always think about the great big ones right? I love CERN, we love the Walmarts. We love China Mobiles, because they're huge, great examples. But I have to say we're actually seeing a whole range of deployments. They don't get the visibility 'cause they're small. Everybody goes, oh you're running on three machines or 10 machines, okay, right? Talk to me when you're the size of CERN. But that's not the case, we're seeing this whole range of deployments. They probably don't get much visibility, but they're just as important. So there's tons of use cases out there. There's tons of use cases published out there and we're seeing it. >> One of the interesting use cases with a different scale has been that edge discussion. I need a very small-- >> In fact that's a very pointed example, because they've had a ton of discussion because of that variety of needs. You get the telcos with their large-scale needs, but you've also got, you know, everybody else. >> It's OpenStack sitting at the bottom of a telephone pole. On a little blade with something embedded. >> In a retail store. >> It's in a retail store. >> Or in a coffee shop. >> Yeah. >> So this is really where we recognizing over and over again we go through these transitions that it used to be, even the fixed devices out of the edge. To change that, you have to replace that device. Instead, we want automation and we want software to do it. That's why OpenStack, moving to the edge, where it's a smaller device, much more capability, but it still computes storage and networking. And you want to have virtualized applications there so you can upgrade that, you can add new services without sending a truck out to replace that. >> Moving forward, do we expect to see more interaction between the Foundation itself and other foundations and open-source projects? And what might that look like? >> It depends on the community. It really does, we definitely have communications from at the board level from board-to-board between adjacent communities. It happens at the grassroots level, from, what we call SIGs or work groups with SIGs and work groups from those adjacent communities. >> I happen to sit on three boards, which is the OpenStack board the CNCF board, Cloud Foundry. And so what we're also seeing, though, now. For example, running Kubernetes, we just have now the cloud provider, which, OpenStack, being a cloud provider for Kubernetes similar in the open way that Amazon had the cloud provider for Kubernetes or Google is the cloud provider. So that now we're seeing the communities working together 'cause that's what our customers want. >> And now it's all driven by SIGs. >> The special interest groups, both sides getting together and saying, how do we make this happen? >> How do we make this happen? >> All right. One of the things you look at, there's a lot going on at the show. There's the OpenDev activity, there's a container track, there's an edge track. Sometimes, you know, where it gets a little unfocused, it's like let's talk about all the adjacencies, wait what about the core? I'd love to get your final takeaways, key things you've seen at the show, takeaways you want people to have when they think about OpenStack the show and OpenStack the Foundation. >> From my point of view it actually is back to where we started the conversation, is these users that are now coming out and saying, "I've been running OpenStack for the last three years, "now we're up to 100,000 or 200,000 cores." That shows the real adoption and those are the new operators. You don't think of Walmart or Progressive as being a service provider but they're delivering their service through the internet and they need a cloud platform in which to do that. So that's one part that I find particularly exciting. >> I totally agree with Lew. The one piece I would add is I think we've proven that it's the right infrastructure for the technology of the future, right? That's why we're able to have these additional discussions around edge and additional container technologies and Zuul with containers testing and deployment. It fits right in, so it's not a distraction. It's an addition to our infrastructure. >> I think the idea around, and that's why we actually broke up into these different tracks and had different keynotes around containers and around edge because those are primary use cases now. Two years ago when I think we were talking here, and like NFV and all the telcos were, and now that has succeeded because almost all the NFV deployments now are based on OpenStack. Now we're seeing it go to containers and edge, which are more application specific deployments. >> I'd love for you to connect the dots for us from the NFV stuff we were talking about a couple of years ago to the breadth of edge. There is no edge, it depends on who you are as to what the edge is, kind of like cloud was a few years ago. >> I mean, we actually have a white paper. If you go to OpenStack.org or just Google OpenStack edge white paper, I think you'll see that there are a variety of cases that are from manufacturing, retail, telco, I saw even space, remote driving vehicles and everything else like that. It's where latency really matters. So that we know that cloud computing is the fastest way to deploy and maintain, upgrade new applications, virtualize applications on a cloud. It's unfortunately too far away from many the places that have much more real-time characteristics. So if you're under 40 milliseconds or whatever, or you want to get something done in a VR environment or whatever, under five milliseconds, you can't go back to the cloud. It also, if you have an application, for example, a security monitoring application, whatever. 99% of the time, the video frames are the same and they're not interesting, don't push all that information back into the central cloud. Process it locally, now when you see frames that are changing, or whatever, you only use the bandwidth and the storage in the central cloud. So we're seeing this relationship between what do you want computed at the edge and how much computing can you do as we get more powerful there and then what do you want back in the centralized data centers. >> Daniel: While you simplify the management. >> Exactly right. >> Orchestration, policy. >> But you still need the automation, you need it to be virtualized, you need it to be managed in that way, so you can upgrade it. >> Alan Clark, Lew Tucker, always a pleasure to catch up. >> Thank you, yeah, >> Thank you so much for joining us. >> It's good to be here. >> John Troyer and I will be back with lots more coverage from OpenStack Summit 2018 here in Vancouver. Thanks for watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)