>> Narrator: Live from Boston, Massachusetts, it's the CUBE covering OpenStack Summit 2017, brought to you by the OpenStack Foundation; Red Hat, an additional ecosystem of support. (upbeat synthesizer music) >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman, joined by my cohost John Troyer. This is The CUBE, worldwide leader in live enterprise tech coverage. Coming into the show this year, here, at OpenStack, discussion of edge was something that had a little bit of buzz. Last year's show in Austin, the telecommunication all of the NFV solutions were definitely one of the highlights. Happy to welcome to the program a first-time guest, Beth Cohen, who is the SDN and NFV Network Product Strategy at Verizon. Thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you, yes. >> All right, so Beth, I mean, we hear cloud in a box, Edge, all those pieces in the keynote, Monday. People are excited, you know, telecommunications. I worked in telecom back in the '90s. I'm excited to see that people are getting involved and looking at this, but before we get into all the tech, just tell us, briefly, about you and your role inside Verizon. >> Sure. So, I actually work at Verizon as a New Product Strategist, so I come up with new products, so I do product management. This is actually my second product for Verizon. The previous one was Secure Cloud Interconnect which is a very successful product. Who would have thought that connecting privately to the cloud would be a good idea? It turns out, everybody thinks that's an excellent idea, but I worked in telecom back, for GTE, back in the 1990s and through BBN, so I've been in this industry for a while and I've always stayed kind of on the cutting edge of things, so I'm very excited to be working on these cutting-edge projects within Verizon. >> All right, so speaking of cutting edge, let's cut to the Edge. >> Beth: Cut to the Edge (laughs). >> And, give our audience a little bit about what the announcement was, >> Sure. >> the actual product itself. >> So, Virtual Network Services, is the product. We originally announced it in July with a universal CP box. That box was not a, what we're calling a white box which I think is the industry term, now. That one was based on the Juniper NFX250 which is, we call, a gray box, so it's using the Juniper NFX software, but the new, new announcement is this is truly a white box. It's an x86 box. It's generic, any x86 will work, and, in fact, the product has, we realized, actually, working with customers that some customers want to have a very small box, very small footprint, low cost, that only supports maybe two, possibly three, NFVs, Virtual Network Functions, all the way up to our largest box, is 36 core. So, we have four core at the bottom, so that's used for the coffee shops or the small retail-type functions where they're only looking for security in routing or security in SDN or SD-WAN or whatever, so very small, compact use all the way up to 36 core which can support, you know, 10 or 12 different functions, so load balancing, routing, security, whatever you want, >> Yeah. >> cloud in a box. >> There's so many pieces of OpenStack and they've been, for years, talking about the complexity. This, really, if I understand it right, I mean, it's OpenStack at the edge in a small box, so how do we kit such a complicated thing in a little box and what kind of functionality does that bring? You know, what will customers get with it? >> So, obviously, it's, we didn't take old everything, >> Right. >> of course, so, you know, it does include Neutron for the networking and it does include Nova in the computes and so it has the core components that you need for OpenStack. And, why did we choose that? Because OpenStack really gave us that consistent platform across both out at the edge and also within the core, so we are building the hosted network services platform which we're using internally, as well, to host our, to support our network services and we're also supporting customers on this same platform. So, that gives us the ability to give a customer experience both out at the edge and within the core. So, of course, everybody wants to know the secret source. How did we cram that in? Containers, so we containerize OpenStack. One of the requirements is it had to be a single core, so it is a single core in the box because, of course, particularly in a small box, you want to leave as much space as possible for services that our customers want because the OpenStack is the infrastructure that supports it all. >> That's great, I mean, so, Beth, that was one of the highlights of the whole show, for me, right. I like when tech blows my mind a little bit and the idea of something that we might have run on a some embedded Linux source or embedded OS before, now, it's actually running a whole cloud platform, in a box, in my office, was amazing. As you're looking at the center of the network versus the edge, is that one, to you and to network ops, is that one big cloud, is that a cloud of clouds? What's kind of the architecture? >> Beth: Cloud of clouds. >> Yeah. >> Is it fog? (co-hosts laughing) >> It's, yeah, you could say it is a fog, because one of the things when you pull a network to the edge like that, Verizon lives, I mean, we live and breathe networks and the networks are WANs, Wide Area Networks, right, they're everywhere, so we live and breathe that every day. So, traditionally, as I mentioned in the keynote, is that cloud has been sort of the data center centric, right, and that changes the equation because, if you think about it, most data center centric clouds, the network ends at, there's some mystery thing that happens and the end, right? It just goes to that network router, you know, NNI, network-to-network net router and it just kind of disappears, right? Well, of course, we know what's on the other side, so what we've done is we've said, okay, we have functionality within that data center, but we've expanded that out to the edge and we understand that you can't just have everything sitting in the cloud and then rely on that edge to just work, so you need to move pieces of it out so it's not reliant on that inside data center. So, there's tools back there, but if that data center connection goes away, that function will still work out at the edge. >> That's great. You talked about both SDN and NFV, a big conversation at OpenStack for the last several years. >> Yeah. >> Can you talk a little bit about maybe the state of SDN and NFV and how you all are looking at that and are we there yet? What do we still, >> (laughs) Are we there yet? >> what places do you still see we need to go? >> So, when I worked with the marketing team, they were like, "Oh, we're going to have to use this NFV term. "We have to use the SDN," and when I talk to customers, inevitably, they're like, "What is the NFV stuff?" They have no idea, so, really, at the end of the day, I see NFV as a telco thing. Absolutely, we need it, but we have to translate what that means to customers because all that back-end stuff, as far as they're concerned, that's magic. That's the magic: that we deliver the services. Those packets just arrive, they do what they're supposed to do. So, I say, okay, network services is really what you're talking about, because they understand, "Oh, yeah, I need that security, I need that firewall, "I need that WAN Optimizer, I need that load balancer." That, they understand. >> Yeah. >> Well, Beth, I, with my telecom background, I think of, there's lots of hardware, there's lots of cabling, there's the challenges that you have with wireless and we're talking a lot about 5G, you're talking about software, though, and it's delivering >> Yeah. >> those services that the customer needs, so, right, is that what they ask for? Is it, I need these pieces and now I can do it via software as opposed to before, I had to, you know, we talked, it's the appliances to the software move? >> Right. >> What are the, your customers asking for and how are they embracing this? >> Well, so our customers are very excited. I can't think of a single customer that I have gone to that have said, "Why would I do that?" They're all saying, "No, this is really exciting," and so what they're doing is they're really rethinking the network because they're used to having stacks of boxes, so the appliance base, you know, that was really pioneered back, of course, Cisco sort of pioneered it back in the '90s but I remember talking to Infoblox back in the, oh, like the early 2000s when they came out with DHCP DNS appliance and I was like, "Wow, that's so cool." So, this is sort of the next generation, so why do you need to have six different boxes that do a single thing? Why don't we just make it a cloud in the box and put all those functions together and service chain them? That gives you a lot more flexibility. You're not stuck with that proprietary hardware and then worrying about, I mean, I can't tell you how many customers want to do this for tech refresh. They have end-of-life equipment that the vendor is saying, "Forget it, (laughs) this is 10-year-old equipment. "We're not supporting it anymore." >> Yeah, but what are the security implications, here, though? We've seen the surface area of where attacks can come from just seems to be growing exponentially. I think, I go to the edge, I've got way more devices, there's more vulnerabilities. Your last product, you said, was security. How does security fit into all of this? What are you hearing from your costumers? How do you partner with other people? >> So, security is absolutely paramount to our customers. As I mentioned in the talk, there was a, we did a survey of our customers. Security was absolutely the top priority, but security's a lot more sophisticated, as you said, than it used to be and the vectors for attack are much more sophisticated and so it's not enough to just have a firewall. That's, your attack is, you know, the sqiushy inside and the hard outside, forget it. That's just (laughs)-- >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. You get it. >> That's just not there anymore. >> Indeed, the moats are gone. They're in the castle. >> Yeah. >> They're in the castle, right. So, for us, it's very appealing to our customers, that, the idea that they can put the security where they need it, so they can put it out at the edge and some of them so want it at the edge and we give them the choice of setting up a sort of a minimal basic firewall or a full-featured next-gen firewall. We also find customers kind of like the brand names, so we offer Palo Alto, Fortinet, Cisco, Juniper and others will be coming, so that appeals to them. They tend to be a shop of one or the other. >> John: All on a software basis? >> All on a software basis. >> Giving them the virtual clients discount? >> Right, yeah, all virtual clients is right. And, you know, at the end of the day, our customers don't actually care about the hardware. For them, it's the service. >> I wanted to take it over to OpenStack itself for a little bit. You know, the great conversation here, this week, has been something about modularization, talking about the ecosystem, talking about containers, both the app layer up on top and the packaging layer down below, which is kind of really cool, as well. How are you seeing the OpenStack community engage with the ecosystem be available to different use cases like this? Right, slim it down, take what you need, leave the rest, different, for a while, the conversation was, there were so many projects and, about everything, and do you feel like OpenStack is going where we need it to go, now, in terms of, again, a usable partner and community to work with? >> I do believe that because, so, my product is really a portfolio, if you think about it, so it's a portfolio of services and I view our use of OpenStack in the same way. So, we're really taking that portfolio of OpenStack services and pulling, you know, putting together the package that we need to deliver the services. So, what's out at the edge, that package of OpenStack services at the edge, that's not the same set of services as what's within the core data center. There's some commonality, but we've chosen the ones that are important to us for the edge and chosen the ones that are important to us for the core. So, I think that the OpenStack community is really embracing this notion and we really welcome that, that thing. Now, what I'm finding is that the vendors that we're supporting, you know, that, in the ecosystem, at the application layer, are still struggling with, "Okay, do we containerize? "Do we support, what do, how do we support it?" I can't tell you how many vendors I've gone to and I said, "If you want to be in our portfolio," and obviously most of them do, you know, Verizon's a big company, "you have to be virtualized. "You have to be able to support, run under OpenStack," and they have to get past that, (laughs) that issue. >> Beth, I noticed in some of your social feeds, you've attended some of the Women at OpenStack event. >> Yes. >> I wonder if you have any comment on the events there and diversity in general in the community? >> So, one of the things I love about OpenStack is it's really, really gone out of its way in, within the open source community, in general, to really focus on the value of diversity and it really does track the number of women that, you know, there's a metric that says the percentage of women at every summit and it's going up and the Women of OpenStack community focus on mentoring, and it's not just women, because mentoring's very important, but it really allows, but women are, have sort of special challenges and minorities have special challenges, as well, and we really try to embrace that fact that you do need a leg up if you're not a 50-year-old white guy (laughs). >> All right, Beth Cohen, really appreciate you joining us. Congratulations on the keynote, the product and wish you the best of luck going forward. >> Thank you. >> We'll be back with more coverage here from OpenStack Summit in Boston. For John and myself, thanks for watching The CUBE. (upbeat synthesizer music)

>> Announcer: Live from Boston, Massachusetts, it's theCUBE! Covering OpenStack Summit 2017. Brought to you by the OpenStack Foundation, Red Hat, an additional ecosystem of support. >> I'm Stu Miniman here with my co-host, John Troyer, and this is SiliconANGLE media's theCUBE, worldwide leader in live tech coverage. Happy to welcome to the program startup CEO David Safaii, Trilio Data. Thank you so much for joining us. >> Thanks for having me. >> Dave, first time on the program. New startup. Tell us a little bit about your background and what let to Trilio Data. >> Sure, sure, sure, sure. Well, first, thanks, excited to be here. Trilio data started a number of years ago, about 2013, and we had focused on what the problem was going to exist within cloud. Now, traditional backup vendors are not going to fulfill the requirements of cloud. The principles of cloud, of course, as you guys know, forever scalable, multi-tenant, self-service, all the things, all the good buzzwords. So the founders of the company started with those principles and started building out Trilio Data, and built it specifically for OpenStack, to begin. >> Cloud's supposed to be real simple. Couldn't it just take care of that canister stuff, multiple objects-- >> Everything's automated. >> Automated replication, everything. What's different about building for cloud specifically? I mean, OpenStack's core to what you're doing, maybe tease out how you ended up there. >> Yeah, sure. When you look at what we do and how we do it, I think is the interesting part. The traditional backup vendors think about a server or a single VM, or maybe just a bunch of files. We have a different approach. We talk about capturing the full environment. And that starts with the application blueprint for that tenant. So that's the app, OS, VM, configurations across the VMs. Security groupings, policies, metadata and data as a whole. So now, when you talk about recovery, recovery is fast. It happens instantaneously, as opposed to trying to stitch together these applications that now reside on the Cloud that have all these different components affiliated with it. I joined the group as CEO in 2014. Seeing the need that will exist within the OpenStack community. As folks start to codify their clouds, and the business units are saying, "All right, "we're ready to move our applications within the clouds." The business assurance needs that were going to pop up. Data protection absolutely is one of them. So that's what really excited me. >> One more question on the base tech. You talk about the application blueprint. Apps on the Cloud, more than just a VM. Do you handle things like the network configuration? Connection back to storage, and things like that? >> Everything for the tenant. The tenant manages the whole backup, and they can restore that whole environment. So you think about it as almost environmental capture per tenant. >> And are people typically backing up from one OpenStack cloud to another, from one OpenStack cloud, maybe to a public cloud? What are you seeing, the use cases? >> Good question. I think first and foremost, and it's kind of this crawl-walk-run scenario, right, everyone's looking to get their OpenStack clouds to a great and steady state. The larger folks have done that. They spent a lot of blood, sweat and tears to do that and they've got these great, elastic, scalable clouds. Recovery for us is, you can recover in place. You can recover in a different availability zone. You can recover into a different data center, or a different OpenStack cloud. And so as the story continues to evolve and emerge, we'll be showing off hybrid cloud data at AWS in the next quarter. And that will be a request from folks in time, as we start to look at hybrid cloud being one singular cloud, really. And then empowering these people to move workloads to and from is very interesting. Creates new problems, but you still need the ability to control and manage and start providing governance around a hybrid type of an environment. >> I think most of our audience is probably aware with some of the pain points that we've had with backup for a while. What are your early customers, what's exciting them? What can they do now that they didn't before? We know backup windows are long gone in the past, but what does this enable them to do that they couldn't? Why this solution rather than some of the other options out there? First, we are completely agentless. We're talking about environments of scale, and so to manage another agent, I mean, it's got to be painful. So we are agentless, which is fantastic. We are non-disruptive, so at any point in your OpenStack Journey, you can deploy us. And you can roll us out with using Ansible scripts, et cetera. We try and make that component very easy. And then again, it's empowering the tenant. Cloud's all about the tenant. Alleviating the pain for IT operations. Having, again, that full environmental capture, changes things. You don't have to worry about, I mean, you can replace files if need be, or folders, but IT operations don't have to worry about that anymore. >> I'm curious. As far as I know, there hasn't been an open source project to solve this kind of issue. Is there open source involved in your code, are you guys closed source? How does that fit of the OpenStack to what you're doing go? >> Good question. We first, actually, started with a specification called Raksha, that we put out there. We quickly closed-sourced it. We're built on open source, soup to nuts. But we did closed-source it because there's a need, there's a need for this solution today. We're big supporters of the community, we believe in community. But there's certain aspects that is required by the enterprise, and they need to move now, and they can't wait for projects to spin up. You're starting to see a couple of other similar projects appear, but as I said, the need is now. That's also part of the issue, is you're having all these overlapping projects that start to emerge. It's not helping the community. So, yeah. We're ready to deliver. >> And this is installed, this can be installed in a data center? Is that the delivery mechanism? >> Absolutely. It's downloadable. We're downloaded as a VM. As I said, we are agentless, so it's a small, little Python script that gets put on all your computer nodes. We appreciate scale. We work with telcos, all the way down to-- >> I was going to ask. OpenStack is many things to many people. It's not one market. So, as CEO, which markets are you looking at that are OpenStack adopters that you would like to be talking with? >> I think it's interesting, as you look at the landscape, not just by industry, but by geo, too, which has become interesting. Here, it's the large environments that are ready for data protection today. That really spans across financial services, to telco, et cetera. I think rest of world, if you start talking about data protection in governments, things that are happening in Europe, for example, they're a little more sensitive to the public cloud. This is the third coming of open source, right, so people are happy to build wherever they can. We're seeing, from a size perspective, deployments. The small guys are trying all over the place. South Africa, Japan, Australia, Latin America and Europe. Here it's a lot of the bigger folks, everywhere else, people are ready to jump into OpenStack. They're excited. >> So your product itself, couple things. Is it fully GA today? Anything you can share on number of customers, what state of deployment they're in, and maybe get into some of the go-to-market pieces as to how they roll that out. >> Yeah, I know, absolutely. So we are GA. As I mentioned, we were founded in 2013, but because this is enterprise software, it needs to be bulletproof, right? We wanted to wait. You get one shot to announce yourself. We went GA last year. Since that time, we've had a number, our installs right now is probably the 20-plus. As I said, the company's range, all over the place. Our go-to-market, really, is subscription-based model. Either the smaller end of the spectrum, number of VMs. 'Cause the smaller guys understand how many VMs they need to manage. Middle of the market, they know how much hardware they've purchased, so how many compute nodes you need to manage. And the larger end of the spectrum, we're hearing people say, "Look, I need to manage "10 petabytes, and I need protection for that." And so that's a different conversation for the much larger guys. As I mentioned before, some of these folks are looking to start, smaller folks, let's say in Europe, MSPs are starting to pop up again. Or the VARs that are evolving. And of course everyone's margin-sensitive, so we have a different tactic in our MSP program, where it's a consumption-based model. One of the great things about OpenStack is that people don't see us as vendor. It's a partnership. It's a clear partnership. And we want to empower people to use it from the MSP side as well as, you know, I talked to a bank the other day who said, "Look, we have OpenStack." "We don't talk about it, in size." "Now that I know that you exist, I get to bring "stateful information, do all these workloads, "we get to use more of OpenStack." So we become an enabler, really, for folks. >> Dave, you bring up the workloads. Anything particular you do for specific applications? OpenStack, you know, very diverse set of work cases. What do you do special for different workloads? What do your customers tend to be using from an application standpoint? >> That's a good question. It's image-level capture, so whatever is running within the image, so if you need application awareness, some of the databases. We'll manage Oracle, or MySQL or Postgres or whatever need be, and then some of the NoSQL market. We're sensitive to those applications that reside there. From the container market, if containers are sitting inside an image, that's fine, too. Containers don't need backup, per se, today, but they need DR, and so you should use us for that perspective. Same thing on the NFV side. NFV's a really exciting thing. You may not need backup, but you need DR. You lose a site, you need to get spun up. And it's not just about spinning up a VM. I need to get back to the configurations that I had before. 'Cause there's a lot of tweaking along the way, right? >> You're a private company, I understand. You've got investors there. There any concern from them in general, that they say, "Hey, we hear all these "various things about OpenStack." "Should that be a core piece of your business?" >> That's a good question. It's exciting for us because it's all been inbound, quite frankly. Just finding out that we exist, people are getting excited, so I think that our investors are excited about that, when I talk about 90% of the people are coming to us. As the model starts to evolve, data protection is one aspect today. If you think about what we do to recreate a point in time in the Cloud, you start talking about migration, upgrade cycles, managing all those sorts of things. Data protection evolves into resource management as you start bringing in the hybrid cloud scenario. Being able to recover wherever, whenever I want. And then it broadens into more business assurance. We start in OpenStack, we ride the data protection wave, we grow with the customer, we continue to provide great functionality, and then we branch out, also, with other clouds. 'Cause at the end of the day, cloud becomes this commoditized layer. It comes down to managing my workloads, my applications, when and where I want to. >> You spoke about the crawl-walk-run. Give us a little bit of the forward-looking, what should we expect from Trilio Data throughout the rest of the year? What are some of the big things that you're trying to knock down? >> Sure. Next quarter we're announcing GA with Amazon, the hybrid cloud from that perspective. We already talk hybrid clouds within multiple OpenStack clouds, but we'll have a public cloud from there. And first is managing just backup. From there, we're going to talk about rehydrating your application in a native format of that public cloud. So now it's taking that next step of that one single pane of glass, if you will, to get to that point. That's going to be the journey across this year. >> Dave Safaii, really appreciate you joining-- >> Thanks for having me. >> Sharing with our community. Everything with Trilio Data. John Troyer and I will be back. More coverage here from OpenStack Summit 2017. You're watching theCUBE. (energetic music)

>> Live from Boston, Massachusetts, it's The Cube covering OpenStack Summit 2017. Brought to you by the OpenStack Foundation, Red Hat, and additional ecosystems support. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman joined by my cohost this week, John Troyer, here at the OpenStack Summit in Boston, Massachusetts. Happy to welcome back to the program, Lee Doyle, who is Principal Analyst with Doyle Research. Lee, nice to see you. >> Nice to see you. Thanks for having me. >> Alright, so networking's your main space. >> Lee: Absolutely >> We've talked about networking for a bunch of years here at the show. Last year: telecommunication, NFV. This year, it seem like half the people on the main stage worked for, you know, some big Telco, and NFV, buzz on the edge. Before we get into some of the initial pieces, what's your take on the OpenStack community, in general, and the show? We're gettin' towards the end so what's your take been this week? >> Always great to have the show in Boston, my hometown. OpenStack and telecom have been going together hand in hand since the beginning of OpenStack, really, and a lot of contributions and use to the big service providers who are here, AT&T, Verizon, some others. So OpenStack's really becoming a good platform for their NFV and virtualization modernization efforts. >> Before we get into some of the cool, new stuff. Core networking, I mean, Neutron's one of those things we've been banging on for years. It seems like it's matured to a bit, But always the one, I mean, networking's never done, right? We're always cranking on it, doing new things. What do you hear about the stability? What the community hears? Is the networking thriving good? Any feedback you've had. >> Sure, no, it was good question and always a question that I ask folks. I think we've seen significant maturity in Neutron. It's stable, it performs, it does a lot of things we expect networks to do, but there still are third party network solutions. If you look at Big Switch or Cumulus or others, say, you don't want to use Neutron or you want to enhance it, feel free to work with us to provide even better networking. >> In a broad trend, companies you mentioned, they're software companies. >> Lee: Absolutely. >> Networking is like boxes and cabling and things like that. How is that software-eating-the-world stack up when it comes to the network space? >> I think the majority of the value in networking, as in IT, is in software, right? The majority of the revenue is in boxes, which are hardware and software integrated. So, from a technology standpoint, it's very software driven. From a market standpoint, it's still box driven. We're in between those two and that's what makes this a very interesting point in time. >> Maybe you could tease apart for us a little bit, for people on the enterprise side, they're used to hearing the letters SDN, right? >> Lee: Right. >> Here, if you're talking to telecom NFV, slightly different takes on some similar problems about service, management, and delivery. >> Lee: Right. >> In OpenStack, are the same bits, is Neutron used by the enterprise for SDN in the same way it's used at the network core by the service providers or are these really two different planes that are developing? >> Right and it's a bit of a complex question. At Doyle Research, what I've done to simplify, is talking about software based networking. So that includes SDN, that includes NFV. Those things overlap and we'll get very hung up, like, what does SDN mean? It's separation control and data plane. What does network function virtualization mean? What's an Etsy telecom standard for taking boxes in the telecom network and turning them into software? So, I try to get away from that and move towards: ok, what is it we're trying to accomplish? Well, with OpenStack, we're trying to deliver networking. It's going to be in software. There still might be, and probably is, some form of Ethernet switch or other box that's moving the bits, right? So, the way I think about it is some of the SDN products that I mentioned, like Cumulus or Big Switch, would be enhancements to something that's a core function of OpenStack, which I wouldn't traditionally call SDN, but that's my view. >> Lee, speak to us, what have you heard about Edge? It was one of those things we heard, the buzz coming in. There's a couple different definitions. The telecommunication people have a very, you know: that's the edge of our network. When I talked to enterprise people, it's IoT and sensors. So what are you hearing about Edge? How's network play across all those? >> Right, well, Edge is very much how you define it or which environment you're talking about, right? Traditionally, in the telecom world, you've got your core of your network and you've got your edge of the network and how that's defined in between because you have network capabilities all throughout the environment. SD-WAN is by far been the hottest technology, not just in terms of buzz, but in terms of actual deployment both in enterprise and service provider. In the service provider space, that sort of blurs into what the vCPE offerings are. So you hear: Verizon, Telefonica just made an announcement, went with Nuage on that. So you can go through all the major service providers. Either they're incorporating SD-WAN functionality into their VCP or they're announcing SD-WAN functionality separately. >> Is there any connection between the SD-WAN stuff and OpenStack I hadn't heard or talked about. Of course, hot technology. We covered Riverbed's announcements. Last year, Viptela, been on The Cube a number of times, just acquired by Cisco. Where do you see SDN playing out? Is this the year that it just becomes a feature? Does it still stay as a distinct market segment? >> On the OpenStack question. OpenStack's traditionally sort of a cloud-based, the bigger data center thing. There are elements you can use and leverage from OpenStack at the edge. In terms of SD-WAN, we're at the hockey-stick phase. The market's going straight up, starting to see wide-scale deployments across a large number of verticals. Usually, the verticals that have lots of branches. So you look at financial services, you look at retail, but you can extend to government, and healthcare, and anywhere where you're trying to do a lot of connectivity between distributed environments. And the real change is that, previously, you do a hub-and-spoke network. You get MPLS, you take the information from the branch and you move it to your corporate data center or data centers. Well now, cloud, SaaS. The information doesn't need to go to the data center. In fact, if it goes to the data center, you add a lot of latency. So SD-WAN is adding the intelligence, the traffic-steering, the ability to manage multiple networks and to move away from MPLS and towards more cost-effective internet connectivity. So, there's still 25. Viptela was the biggest company taken out recently but there's still 24 other solutions and probably more being announced over the next six months. >> Stu: Wow, 24, huh? >> At least, yeah. >> I'm curious, we talk about hybrid-cloud and multi-cloud and networking's one of the things that sort of tie all of that together. How do thing like Kubernetes, and the public-to-private piece, how's that shaking out in the network space? >> Well, networks have to support multi-cloud environments. They need to support what's happening privately, publicly, VMware, Red Hat, OpenStack obviously, and soon to be containers. Each of those are little bit different. So can you have a network solution that spans all of that? One of the things that VMware is very public about talking about, at this show, is their ability to do the hybrid public-private. Red Hat talks about that and I spent a lot of time last week on that topic as well. >> As you're talking with network engineers, both in service providers and out at the enterprise. We've talked about all this change, we've hyped the cloud, we're now switching from a hardware-centric model to a more software defined, literally. Are you seeing new skillsets needed for these network engineers? Automation, you know, does the job change as we go forward? >> Absolutely, it changes. When you look at a traditional CCIE, which is Cisco certified, that's about Cisco APIs, Cisco boxes, in a world where there's a lot of other software elements and you've got to tie to different orchestration, different management, public-private cloud. There absolutely is different skillsets and there needs to be an evolution and it's on of the challenges of the networking industry because there simply aren't enough people who are familiar with building the new style, software-driven networks as there need to be. >> John: With all this exhilaration and change, how are you seeing people say at the management layer, the management layer of people, the CxO layer, how are they dealing with all this change? You know, new technologies, emerging technologies. Things are not slowing down. >> No and so AT&T has a large-scale, public training program that tries to get its people skilled up to the new technologies. I know a lot of the other Telcos, who have been less public about it, are doing the same. If you go to large network user groups like ONUG, they're talking about new skillsets and how to train there. There's also the organizations. Do you blend compute, storage, application, and networking folks all in the same team. And I know you guys have talked about that previously. How quickly do organizations do that or do they remain relatively traditional. The CIOs are thinking about that, they're reorganizing, but it's not going to be just snap your fingers and hey, everyone's ready for the new software-driven world. >> Yeah, it's a fascinating thing, of course. Networking industry tends to move a little-bit slow. Especially enterprise and we've been talking about fast and agile for a lot of things but that does not characterize that. That being said, feels like things do move faster. What's the general attitude you hear from customers? Are they still reticent to move forward? Others slow to move those processes? You kind of hear, things like security, tend to realize I need to update more, I need to move forward. What do you hear when you're talking to customers, today versus, lets say, only five years ago? >> Sure, we're five years in on NFV and Etsy and I think we're making significant progress. You hear a lot about us at the shows where the Telcos are wanting NFV, but it's still in the initial phases. We've been talking about SDN and the enterprise for about the same amount of time and, you know, mainstream enterprises. The hyper-scale guys, you know: Google, Amazon, Facebook. Yeah, they're already there and they're very innovative and people are following their example and leveraging that. But I just think we're still early in the truly software-driven networking game. >> One of the questions I always have is: What size company you are and what capability do you have? What do you do internally? Versus, do you just adopt a platform that's going to do all that stuff for you? You and I talked about this years ago about network-fabric type of topologies, all the different pieces that went out. There's certain sized organizations, you're going to just go to someone else that can do that. I hear some pieces, Kubernetes might be the same kind of things. Do you see that? People just saying it's not outsourcing anymore, but I'm going to be more strategic, focus on my business, my applications, and let somebody else handle the underlying stuff. >> If IT, or the network, or branch operations is not central to what you do, I think outsourcing makes perfect sense. And that may be outsourcing it to a reseller, or someone to manage it for you, it may still be on-prem. But more and more the workloads are going to the clouds. >> And the reason I move away from outsourcing, the old outsourcing was: my mess for less and this is a more strategic: what piece of the stack do I own or what do I run versus someone else. It's not: I told you this is the exact configuration in something you run. It's: I'm buying x-bandwidth, x-performance, things like that and it's something that's updated a little more frequently. They manage that piece and it's further down the stack than I care to look at. >> Lee: Sure, there's new, managed service providers who look at your WAN and networks, so that comes into play. The leading Telcos would certainly want to play a role here beyond just providing the pipe. They want to take care of your networking challenges for you. So there's a lot of new options for folks who don't want to build and buy and sweat there. >> Do you see a difference between what's going on inside the U.S. and then in the rest of the world in terms of the Telcos, and services they're rolling out, ambitions, and where they want to play? >> There are clearly geographic differences when you get into telecom but it's not as simple as saying: x-geography is doing. You almost have to go operator by operator, there. >> Anything that you've seen here at the show. This is your first summit. You've been following, obviously, the space for a very long time. Anything you've seen here, either sessions, or vendors, or users doing interesting things, or anything that's excited you recently in areas that you're following and are interested? >> Yeah, the passion here for OpenStack is undeniable. You've got a lot of people who are committed to the community, they're aware of the networking challenges, and the significant strides we've made with OpenStack networking, but also where we need to go in the future. So, it's exciting to be here and fun to see everyone. >> Last thing I want to ask, Lee. Is there anything that, advice you want to give the community? Things that you heard of from users or you observed where we should mature over the next iteration of the solution set? >> I think, as a technology-driven community, it's always incumbent on the community to really explain the business benefits and talk about how this technology is really solving real-world problems. And it is, but it's just making that translation, sometimes, is challenging. >> Alright, Lee Doyle, great to catch up with you and, like yourself, thrilled to be here in Boston for a technology show. Hope to have more of these here, as always. It's our second week, back-to-back, here in Boston amongst all the other shows we've been doing at SiliconANGLE Media so, stay tuned. John and I have a few more interviews left as we get to wrap up three days of programming here from the OpenStack summit. Thanks for watching The Cube. (electronic music)

>> Announcer: Boston, Massachusetts It's theCUBE. Covering OpenStack Summit 2017. Brought to you by the OpenStack Foundation, RedHat, and additional ecosystem support. (upbeat techno music fades out) >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman, joined by John Troyer, and this is theCUBE, SiliconANGLE Media's live broadcast of OpenStack 2017 here in beautiful Boston, Massachusetts. Actually, the clouds have been breaking up, a little bit of sunshine here, and it's our third day of broadcasts. We have really a lot of our editorial segment today. Going to be talking to more community members, talking to one of the Superuser winners, a number of startups, and happy to start the day, Lisa-Marie Namphy who is the US OpenStack ambassador. CUBE alum, been on a number of times. Lisa, tell us what's new in your world. >> Thank you Stu, and thanks John and what a pleasure to be here with you folks, and hello, Boston and world, good morning. What's new, well the OpenStack ambassador program is expanding all the time, we just had a great session that Sonia did to kick off the day today to really talk about, you know, how to get involved in OpenStack, even if you're not necessarily a technical person. It's really important to acknowledge how everybody in our community can contribute, and that's one of the things the ambassador program does really well. So we just had a session on that. One of the things that I've done with our user group that is new and super exciting is I've morphed it into a little bit of the OpenStack in Containers user group. So I've been focusing a lot on containers, done 12 or 13 meetups on Kubernetes and or Docker since last summer, and I just had the pleasure of speaking in the CNCF communities track, communities day track yesterday, and that was so much fun, out there in the grand ballroom, so that's kind of some new and fun things we're doing. >> It's great, this is our fifth year doing theCUBE at this show, always a robust community, really. When we started coming, it was the people building it, Now we have a lot of the users, there's different sub-segments, can you speak a little bit to the kind of maturity of the community, and, you know how do people get involved in the ambassador program, how many are there geographically, number wise, diversity, those kind of things. >> Oh gosh, yeah so it's geo, or it's a worldwide program and it's been going a lot, and you're right, you know years ago, here it was the Design Summit, and we sat around and talked about, you know the next six months of the project, and then it morphed into more users, adoption, customers, operators are a really big one too. And now those things are all so big, we have operators, Midcycles, and all and the Design Summit has been, you know sequestered off into, separated out so that we can really focus here on the customers, the community, users, and those type of contributors as well. So things have changed a lot in the seven years since we've been doing OpenStack. The ambassador program is fantastic. The foundation has done a really good job in the last couple of years of acknowledging the contributions of the user community, and so not necessarily the code contributors only, but the people who are also spending as much time contributing in really significant ways to our community, and growing our commnity. Open source doesn't work without a community. So we know that, and we're doing a much better job of acknowledging who those people are and rewarding them. >> John: How many ambassadors worldwide? >> There's about twenty of us. I'm the only one in the US right now, but we're about to change that. I believe my friend Sheila is going to join and cover the East Coast, and I'll be able to do everything west of the Mississippi, but most countries only have one, and... >> And the role of an ambassador, do you do a lot of meetups? Do you go speak? You're there as a, for people to contact as well, right? >> Yeah, we generally recruit or ask people to be ambassadors if they are already doing those things, if they're already running a local user group, if they already have a brand in OpenStack, and they speak, and they kind of already know how to reach out to people, and how to inspire people, or people see them on stage, and that's why the foundation approached me to do it. I had been running the San Francisco Bay area meetup for three years, and speaking, I don't know this is probably my eighth, ninth, maybe tenth OpenStack Summit that I've been speaking at, and OpenStack days and all of that. And so, you kind of see who's already doing it. The cool thing about community is nobody is asked to do it, like you do it because you have a passion for it, because you love it, because it's the right thing to do, because it's helpful to push the technology forward because you have a passion for the technology, because you love people, all these reasons is why people get into it. So you find all over the world people who are doing this. They're already doing it and they're not being paid to do it they're doing it, those are the people you grab, because you know, there is a burnout level to it but those are the people who have enough passion about it and commitment, and believe in community that they're going to be successful at it. >> Can you talk a little bit about the Bay Area OpenStack user group? It's one of the largest OpenStack user groups, and one of the themes we've seen this week is a lot of talk about containers, a lot of talk about, well, Kubernetes, but containers in general, kind of demystifying the sometimes confusing story about where's OpenStack good for, where's the container layer good for, it turns out it's good for a couple different places, you can containerize OpenStack, you can also... A lot of talk about the app layer on top, but you actually, what you just said, you've actually expanded the conversation, you don't just sit there and say "this month we're talking about Neutron," you talk about a lot of different topics, and you bring people to the table. >> Yeah, San Francisco area, you are correct, it is the world's largest OpenStack user group, we have over 6,000 members. Not all of them are located in the Bay Area, I think people like to join the user group because we provide a lot of really good content, and we live stream our meetups, we have Google Hangouts, I record them all, they're all on our calendar, if you go to meetup.com/openstack, you get to us because we were the first one. So we do get a lot of people from around the world, and I write newsletters with lots of interesting information but it is a local community and we do encourage people to participate, so the meetups are super important and the only way to make sure that you keep your community strong and keep people coming back is to have phenomenal content in your meetups. So I work really hard to make sure that the content is interesting, that it's relevant, and the most exciting, most relevant conversation since last summer has been containers. The year before that it was networking, and it still kind of is and always will be. So we do a lot of meetups on networking, too, but containers has been what people want to talk about. They're trying to figure this out. OpenStack has reached a maturity level where people, you know, they're not necessarily learning or if they are they can take an OpenStack 101 course and those exist all over the place. So we've gone to the next level, and whether it was Cloud Foundry or now Containers we do like to talk about what else you can do with this fabulous technology, and how you should do it. So we've had meetups where we've presented OpenStack on communities, communities on OpenStack, where I personally came in and did a whole meetup on Kubernetes as the underlay, and Rob Starmer came in and did a whole workshop and hands-on about how to run OpenStack on containers. Yesterday our panel, you heard Dan Berg talk about just simplifying it, run everything in a container, but keep it as simple as possible, so what pieces do you need? So these are the conversations that we like to have in our user group, and people keep coming back because it's an exciting conversation. >> Yeah, expanding on that, you talked about just people are always coming, new people to the community that don't know it, people that are changing jobs all the time, new technologies, I mean, we all know community building is a constant, you know, reinvention in something, you keep needing to work How do the ambassadors, how do stay energized on it, how do you keep the momentum and the energy of the community going? >> Yeah, well the cool thing about an open source community is no matter where you're working, you're still part of the community. So I've worked with so many other people here, I don't even know where they are sometimes. I mean we don't tend to talk about what company we're actually working for, or who's paying your paycheck, and especially in the early days of the project that was definitely true, and so some of my good friends have been at four different companies in the time that we've been doing this OpenStack thing, but we're all still working on OpenStack, and I suspect Kubernetes will be very similar, or Docker. You know, how many people are working on Docker? But there's only 200 people that work for Docker, right? So these technologies kind of take on these lives of their own, and people do switch jobs a lot, but people come to meetups because it's a constant thing, and it's also a good place to keep networking and keep looking for work, so we got a lot of that. The beginning of every meetup, I ask for a show of hands of who's hiring. If I ask for who's looking, not everybody raises their hand but if you ask who's hiring, there's a lot of people hiring all the time, and so then the people can look around and say "okay I'm going to go talk to those people," so yeah, the networking is an important part. >> On that point, are you seeing any trends as to what are the roles that they're hiring for, or you know, companies or industries that definitely have changing skillsets, you know John spent a lot of time helping all those virtualization people moving to that next thing, what are you seeing? >> Engineering is the big one, and people are still looking for OpenStack engineers. I mean people ping me all the time, saying "do you know any OpenStack engineers?" So that's usually the number one thing, developers to help build out these things, and then also the companies that, you know, that aren't OpenStack companies, you know companies like GE that are trying to hire what, 20,000 developers in the next couple years, and Mercedes and Tesla, and you see all these companies that are trying to build out their software developer programs. So another role that is interesting that people are hiring for is these developer, DevRel, Developer IVC community roles to try to figure out, you know how are we going to build our developer community within our company? If these are really large companies, or you know, companies like IBM which have interest in things like the Apache Spark community, or you know, you find these pockets in these large companies as well. Or there's a lot of startups, you know unlike, probably not like Docker as much, but Kubernetes is going to have this ecosystem of partners that build around it, and these companies are popping up out of the woodwork and they're growing like crazy, and there's like 30 of them in the Bay Area, right? So they're really trying to expand as well. >> I wanted to ask about the general mood of the summit. My first summit... You know, it happens every six months. I've been impressed by how grounded people are, I see a lot of first time attendees, people starting new OpenStack installations in 2017 right now, here to learn... I'm just kind of curious, over the last couple summits is there anything different you see about here in Boston, anything you're looking forward to going to in the next one, in terms of kind of mood and how people are, are people feeling good, are people, you know, are people still puzzling out this container issue, or are people still talking about public versus private, or what are kind of the mood and conversations you hear from other community members? >> I think people are talking about public versus private again, not still right? I mean is it, that was kind of an interesting one, and I think Johnathan brought it up on main stage on the first day about that kind of readoption of private cloud, and that you know, we knew that was a sweet spot for OpenStack particularly in the US. You know, lots of public clouds running on other parts of the world, but that's a fun conversation, and it's containers of course, but not just containers. I think it was maybe Lauren Sell who put the slide up of all of those other technologies that are, you know affiliate now, and... >> Another ecosystem of open source projects >> Lisa: Yeah, yeah >> that can all interoperate with openstack. >> With Cloud Foundry, and Ansible was up there, and Ceph, and you had a slide full of technologies, OpenDaylight, that are all playing a role here and that the conversation has been about, and I just encouraged in the ambassador session and in the meetup sessions to do that with your meetup. Our meetup has been really successful and the people have loved it because we started bringing in this other technology. People want to talk about IoT, they want to talk about AI, they want to talk about machine learning, so there's those, they want to talk about, you know what are the best use cases for OpenStack so we showcased to GoDaddy what they built with Docker on top of OpenStack. So there's a lot of fun conversations to be had right now, and I think there's a buzz around here, you know that, what, day one when Johnathan put the slide up saying, you know, people have predicted the end of OpenStack and that was like four years ago or whatever, that was an awesome slide, right? I'm sure talked to him about it. >> Yeah, I absolutely traded notes, and caught opinion about it, too. Lisa, you live in The Valley, I'm curious about perception in The Valley, you know, OpenStacks now been around seven years, it's kind of, you know, it's matured, it's moved on, some called it boring because we fixed some of the main issues, you know We mentioned all the OpenStack days with you know Cloud Foundry, Kubernetes, all these software pieces on top, what do you hear in The Valley when people talk about OpenStack, any misperceptions you'd want to clarify? >> Yeah, yeah it's not boring. It's funny when you say to a California girl "you live in The Valley," I'd be like, "let's just say The Silicon Valley." Not the, not the other Valley. >> Stu: Not the Valley girl >> Don't make me start talking like that, right? >> Stu: Oh my god! (laughs) >> Right, so, no. It's never boring, it's never... It hasn't been boring from day one, and there's been times where I felt like okay we've been talking about infrastructure for years now, let's talk about some other things, but I love the way at this conference they're talking about, they're calling it the "open infrastructure conference." You know, this is what OpenStack has become, and that just opens the conversation. You know, I love that shift. There's always something exciting to talk about, and I don't mean the little inside baseball things, like should we have done Big Ten, should Stackalytics go away, I mean, you know people like to talk about that stuff, but I don't find that customers or the people at the meetups are talking about that stuff. People at the meetups are talking about you know, how should we run this with Kubernetes? How do these technologies fit together? You know, lots of different things, you know where does Docker play into it? Networking is still a conversation and a problem to still be solved, and how are we going to do this? We had OpenContrail do a meetup with us a couple of weeks ago. There's still a lot of interest in figuring out the networking piece of it, and how to do that better. So we're never going to run out of things to talk about. >> Alright, so how do more people get involved, how do they find their meetups, where do they find resources? >> Most of, openstack.org has a list of all the communities, but most of the communities use meetup.com, almost globally, so if you go to meetup.com, and you put in your geo, you'll find one. You can contact your local ambassador. If you want to get involved, I say just go to a meetup. I mean you can't start leading communities until you participate in communities. There is no way to phone this in. You have to, it's hands-on, roll up your sleeves, let's get to work and participate, and have some fun. So go to a local meetup, and meet your meetup organizers, volunteer, help, and it's so rewarding. Some of my best friends that I have, I've met through OpenStack or open source projects. It creates many opportunities for jobs. So just start going to meetups and get involved, and if you want to be an ambassador, there's a list on the website of how to figure that out. Tom Fifield runs the whole program with Sonia's help out of Australia, but regionally we're always looking for help. There's no shortage of roles that people can play if people really want to. >> Definitely a vibrant community here, doing well, Lisa-Marie Namphy, always a pleasure to catch up with you, and we have a full day of programming coming, so stay tuned and thank you for watching the cube. >> Lisa: Thanks Stu, thanks John. (upbeat techno music)

>> Announcer: Live, from Boston, Massachusetts, it's The Cube, covering OpenStack Summit 2017. Brought to you by the OpenStack Foundation, Red Hat, and additional ecosystem support. (upbeat techno music) >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman, joined by my co-host for the week, John Troyer. We've been talking this week about how OpenStack, there's real clouds, there's real deployments. I'm happy to welcome to the program two people that have done this with Adobe Advertising Cloud. We have Joseph Sandoval, who is the engineering manager at Adobe Advertising Cloud, and Nicolas Brousse, who is director of operations engineering. Gentlemen, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you for letting us join. >> Thank you. >> Nicolas, I'm sorry Joseph, we actually had you on the program at the Silicon Valley OpenStack Days a little while ago. Refresh our audience, though, a little bit, your background, how OpenStack fits in with your role, and what you do. >> Sure. Now, I've been in, a long time, in the OpenStack community, at that time when I was at the Silicon Valley event, I was with Lithium Technologies, so we also were an OpenStack user, but we were also kind of going through some transformation, I think, I would say we kind of really pushed the Kubernetes button for the community at that time. So I think I kind of got a little rep about being kind of like an agitator in this community to try to make the product really, you know, work for people who are actually consuming it. >> Right, so not only have you deployed OpenStack, you've done it at two different jobs now already. >> Joseph: Yes. >> People think we're still so early there, but we're already seeing that progression. Alright, Joseph, a little bit of background, yourself, what brought you to the current role in interaction with OpenStack? >> Yeah, so it's Nicolas. >> I'm sorry, yeah Nicolas, sorry, yeah. >> It's okay. >> I come from this startup company called TubeMogul that got acquired by Adobe last year, and one of our challenges as a startup was to be able to scale our cloud infrastructure and our infrastructure in general. We were a newer user of a public cloud at that time, but over the years we faced multiple challenges, not only as a cost challenge, where it gets like easily out of control with public clouds, but also technical challenge. We were in like an IP goals environment with very lean team operation. So we had to figure out a way where we can scale some of our technology and some of our platforms. And so my first technical prime was to have a reasonable cost control. And so we started to look at different cloud solutions. At the time it was like Eucalyptus, CloudStack, Open Nebula, and we tried many of these to get control, to get some time to figure out what was the solution. And we moved quickly to OpenStack and started to implement and get like some known, couple of here a journey to implement that and scale a little faster too. >> Stu, I want to point out something. In that story, at least what I took away from it, usually when you have a problem state of a lean team and you're trying to hyper growth >> Stu: In scaling. >> In scaling, the answer is public cloud. Oh, we'll just go to the public cloud, that'll solve all that problem. You chose a different way and chose a different architecture. >> Nicholas: Correct. >> Anything that brought you to that decision? >> Yeah, so there was a few factors. First one was like, well cost growth on public clouds was growing faster than the revenue in some ways, so that doesn't line up. You need to have a story that makes more sense. And the second one was really like technical. We had some very specific challenge where we're in the real-time bidding advertising, so we have a huge amount of traffic. We do want to try billions, HTTP request on the platform. All of those need to be answered in a few milliseconds, so the proximity of our partner, you can always see that as a smaller stock exchange for advertising. So we need to be close to our partner so all this auction process is happening very quickly. And we have to store huge amount of data. Any of the solution you will find on the public cloud will end up having like 50 minutes ago that's 50 milliseconds that doesn't necessarily fit our use case. >> Yeah, just maybe you can bring us inside the architecture a little bit. >> Joseph: Sure. >> Talk about, look, public cloud isn't simple, obviously costs people, you know, we understand that and there's the debate as to where those pieces fit. But you know, OpenStack, speak a little bit to how it is to put that together. Simplicity is not usually what we hear when we talk, but what worked, what didn't work, what did you have to kind of customize to kind of get things working? >> You know, I think the one thing is just coming through like, you know, two different implementations is that, yeah there is complexity. And what I really got out of this was that you know, you really just have to consume the things that you need, so we've been very lean about the APIs that we consume, what services that we think are meaningful to our business. Instead of taking really all as a service type parts of this framework, we really narrowed it down to what matched our business requirements. I think as well as kind of like how you're consuming, and I think if you noticed the keynote on Monday, all of a sudden we're seeing this new pivot of like, let us manage your cloud. And it still kind of speaks to some of the challenges that you know, the end users of OpenStack have. And I think the part that's really important for anyone that's really going on this journey is that, you know, it's how you decide to consume it, like can you start really running it within like a CICD model so that you're really getting into that dev-ops aspect of it. Even within Amazon, I think in my journey, that's one thing that I think a lot of people miss is that when they try to lift and shift, like they want to race to the public cloud, you're going to still be challenged because you haven't really fundamentally changed how you're consuming the cloud product. You're not making yourself cloud native. And I think in my journey, I've made those same mistakes. I've learned from it enough. I'm actually really realizing that it's almost bigger than OpenStack. It's almost like how as business you operate and how your teams fundamentally build their tools and how they kind of like make open source a true strategy. >> I'd love to hear about the applications that you're using in this environment. We hear it in some of the keynotes on some of the users, you know, rapid move from where they started to adding applications. You mentioned cloud native. What are the class of applications, what percentage of your business runs on that? >> Sure, yeah so the code name we've given our platform is CloudMogul. And really it comprises bare metal, primarily OpenStack, and yet we still also use Amazon, so we have all different frameworks in there, depending on the type of, you know, workload that's there. As far as like OpenStack specifically, we really just consume the court. It's compute, storage, and network. Storage is probably a little bit secondary for us, the way we have designed our platform. Network is the really key thing. And as Nicholas mentioned earlier, I mean, that's the thing that in Amazon, you'll see great choices for compute, great choices for memory, but if you try to find an affordable network, you know, intensive instance, and that's what you know, we have decided why we're doing the data center. So we really have stuck really with just the core OpenStack services. Currently our developers are looking at now rolling out Kubernetes, and they're kind of doing it in a more, you know, dev POC. And as well as we're trying to balance out like the broader Adobe strategies, like they want to move to multi-cloud, they want to use Azure. So there's quite a bit that we're trying to consume, but with the lean team, we have to really be judicious about what we decide to roll in. >> Nicholas, can you comment maybe on the applications you mentioned some of the costs. The keynote, cost compliance capabilities, does that resonate with you, and how do you choose between the public and >> I think it's more like to get back to this lean operation, it would drive like some of our info on it, like we're a technology company in some way. I mean, we are building software, we are building certain solutions. You know, our goal is to develop like an advertising solution and trend solutions at several customer. So we're on a tier to be like a storage solution for OpenStack or compute solution for OpenStack or public cloud. So we really had to focus on what is selling or best use case or solve one problem, as that's where we had like to really look at cutting the fat in some way on OpenStack and really just looking at what is going to be the best use case for us. So we liberate OpenStack for most of our bidding system and manage all those calculating for the VMs, but we also integrate that very easily with like a flat network designed with open maker, so we are about to really like get the best of both worlds, between like Permital, OpenStack, and virtualization, and know we are also like implementing like reverting on the, be able to offload some of the workload back to Amazon in Ozone, we are starting to look at Ozone like a cloud provider but for trying to revert like what's the best and consider like all the terms we have. >> Can you give us a little insight to that cloud bursting is a term that, you know, gets attention because data's tough to move, you know, where the application lives, is that you know, container, Kubernetes stuff that you're doing, expand that a little for us. >> So it's definitely challenging. It's not something that, and then we got a very quick iteration and we have been able to liberate it easily first because we are like a very simple design on the way we were managing our kernel environment on OpenStack prime mount. So it was to very easily integrate, have a direct connect to a VPC on Amazon and just offload some of the compute of these onto this VPC. So a challenge we had to learn is we are trying to understand we're in the workload and that was in iteration, when we did move back to in house, understanding like the network traffic you are getting and understanding like the back and forth between your backend and your frontend. That's something you don't really see or understand easily on public cloud. When you move back in house, then you start to see the bottlenecks and you start to learn about what is really your workload, and we are to do this again, like with cloud bursting, okay, what kind of back and forth are going between our compute services and all the backend service that it needs to access. And latency being very critical for us, we had to really measure that. >> Yeah, you never know til you try it, right? >> Exactly. >> You crawl, walk, run. Hey Joseph, you talked about CICD and rate of change. I'm kind of curious how you're seeing the rate of change of your infrastructure stack, so OpenStack, versus you said you're now kind of experimenting with Kubernetes containers in the talk. A lot of talk about containers here at the show. For me, it's becoming a little more clear where in the architectural pie, layer cake, that that, pie, layer cake, that that fits in. Can you talk about rate of change? Are you looking at, does your infrastructure need to change at the same rate as the application on top of it, or how are you all looking at it? >> You know, in just beginning this journey, the one thing that I've really took away and that was one guy on my team when I was at Lithium, where he would always talk about like really meeting your developers where they're at. And yes, there's so much change, and you have to really kind of balance it. And you know, some of these companies we've been with, we've had some software stacks that are almost a decade old. They're just not made with cloud nativeness in mind. And that's where, you know, I've always been a really like let's move forward, and that was one of the early individuals saying, you know, I was at OpenStack Prague and we were doing, you know, Kubernetes under the control plane. In hindsight I was like, well, it was a little kind of premature. It was almost a little reckless. But I think that the thing that I'm trying to do now is really just try to leverage like where our product's at. Can I help evolve the platform so that, are we 12-factored, can we get there? You know, we have big data kind of workloads. How do we like start taking frameworks that allow us so that you know, we can be in this multi-cloud world. So I think there is a challenge, you know, you're hearing all these new great things that are happening. You know, you're coming to these summits, and you're getting all this hype. But then you really got to walk away. And I just kind of do that sniff test, testing something out to see like, is it really ready? And especially with where we're at in enterprise, you know, we really have to map to security compliance. And I think those are some of the gates that we're challenged with, as well as like, is the workload that we're bringing in, have we adapted it enough so that we can really kind of push what we're doing. Cause I'd love to see us get to the point where we have the frameworks of containers and Kubernetes. But not everything for us can get there. You know, so like on the edge, we're doing billions of requests per second. Bare metal is the key thing for us. And we're running HA proxy on the edge. So the key thing for us is like, run it as code, let's count how much can we do to get this so that we can fully automate this and make it repeatable. And I think that's kind of the core ethos for the team. >> You talked about coming to different summits over the years, kind of the sniff test. What's the mood of the attendees here at OpenStack summit here in Boston this year in 2017 and is it different from previous years? >> You know, I think we seen kind of some interesting ebb and flows. I think when I was in Barcelona, it was definitely different. I was kind of like surprised, it just felt like it was a little bit less energy. Austin I thought was tremendous, it was a great event. And I kind of feel like, I think there's a little bit more pragmatism that set in, which I think is really healthy and a sign of maturity that you know, people are really kind of understanding instead of getting caught up in that, the cloud hype, you know, public versus private and all these things. I think now we're starting to see a more mature audience. I think OpenStack foundation and the community has also kind of adapted as well. I know they try to be everything for everybody under the cloud in a data center. And I think now we're actually seeing a more healthy approach, so for me I think there's still a lot of energy there. Maybe it's getting a little boring, which to me in my world, that's a good thing. >> Nicholas, I'm curious, do you either at this show or at other events, how are you working with your peers in the industry to understand that kind of hybrid multi-cloud model and sort that out, you know, resources you go to, conversations you have, you know, how do you create that learning? >> So, first it's I come from the culture that's from the startup to Mogul that got a prior where we're ready for costs on the customer and the end goal of what we are trying to build. And we are not necessarily driven by the technology itself, we really try to devise technology to solve a problem. We have a lot of geek on our team, and that's what drives some of our discussion. But we're really more trying to look at how we drive the product for our world. And that's really like most of the discussion, even with our product, like we started a year ago to use the Fastly file pen to sort some specific problem where we can't have like a global footprint as much as the city and provider. And they were able to address like some of a specific use case, where they can do like a synchronous looking for us. And that was something like a specific business case for us, and every time we go like to an event or technology, we are trying to see like what are we trying to solve? And that's what drives most of our discussions. >> Joseph, sounds like you've given feedback and been on some of the leading edge of some of the activities. Is there anything you look at where you're hoping for a little bit more maturity, either OpenStack in general or the vendor community out there, you know, what are you hoping to see, you know, as we mature this even further? >> Sure, I mean I would say one thing about, you know, the OpenStack community. And I know this was always kind of one of my early beefs about it. It felt so vendor-centric, and very vendor-influenced that it just didn't really for me feel like the actual consumers, the individuals who really are using these platforms are really being heard. So I think they need to still kind of really force it, really listen to that feedback from the community, what's working, what's not working. As far as what I'd love to see, is you know, I think there's been a little bit more of like a correction I guess in a sense of like all the kind of like services that were out there, these side projects. I think there was a lot of messaging about like let's all work together, which I think is kind of, I just kind of wince a little bit. But I'm like, it's good, I'm glad that they've kind of come to this recognition. I'd love to see more and more of that. But I also want to make sure that the OpenStack community, like stay distinct. I'm not sure if I 100% think like, leveraging off the Kubernetes community, like yes, work together, let's make these things, you know, coexist and stuff. But I do hear some things where like, hey, we should just make this service be the backend for Kubernetes. I'm like, hmm. I don't think you've really looked at the framework of some of these APIs and how they're going to integrate in that environment. And I actually would like to see them develop, you know, distinctly, but you know, find some really friendly integration points so that me as a consumer, I can like easily use these as we evolve and our platform evolves, I can easily kind of start roadmapping these into our platform. >> Alright, Nicholas and Justin, really appreciate you giving us the update, and we'd love to get that real practitioner viewpoint. John and I will be back with more coverage here from OpenStack 2017 in Boston. You're watching The Cube. (upbeat techno music)

>> Announcer: Live, from Boston, Massachusetts. It's theCUBE. Covering OpenStack Summit 2017. Brought to you by the OpenStack Foundation, Red Hat, and additional ecosystem support. >> Welcome back. I'm Stu Miniman joined by my cohost this week, John Troyer. Hi and welcome to the program, a first time guest, Professor at Boston University, and lead of the Massachusetts Open Cloud, Orran Krieger. Thanks so much for joining us. >> Ah, my pleasure, thank you. >> Alright, so, we're here in Boston, the center of culture, the revolution, a lot of universities. Tell us a little about you, just click on yourself, your role at BU, and then we'll get into the MOC stuff in a little bit too. >> Sure, I mean, I sort of came back from industry after 15 years in industry, to this incredible opportunity we had, to create this entity. I mean, there's no other place like this, if you take the universities in this city, it's equivalent to all the universities on the Pacific West Coast. Right, the concentration of high-tech is unbelievable here. >> I want to remind you, my wife was actually involved when Partners Healthcare first got launched here in Boston, was an early technology and collaboration here in Boston. Sounds similar, what you are, what you're doing with some of the universities in Cloud. Maybe you talk, you came from the vendor side. Just real quick, your background, you worked at a company that John and I know quite well. Maybe just give a quick background? >> Sure. I left academia, I don't know how many years ago. Ended up going to IBM research, and was there for about 10 years. And then I joined this little start-up called VMWare. And started up and then worked as sort of one of the lead architects for vCloud Director and the whole vCloud Initiative. >> Alright, great. Let's speak today, you also have, you're the lead in Massachusetts Open Cloud. We actually had a couple of guests on from Red Hat that talked a little bit about it. But tell us about the project, the scope of it, how many people involved, how many users you reach with this. >> Sure. The future is in the Cloud. I mean, you look at sort of the fact that users can use what they need, when they need it. Producers can get massive economies of scale. You know, the future of computing is in the cloud. And when I was on the industry side, what really concerned me, what was going on, is that these clouds were really closed. You couldn't see what was going on inside them. Innovation was sort of gated by this single provider, that operated and controlled each of these clouds. So, the question that I was struggling with back then, is how can we create a cloud that's open? That multiple technology companies can participate. And certainly when I came back to academia, a cloud where I could do innovation in. Where not just me, but many many different researchers. You look at how much research has fundamentally impacted our field. It's dramatic. Even in just sort of the very area we're talking about. From what Mendall and team did with VMWare, and then Zen coming out of Cambridge. I mean, Ceph coming out of, just like technology after technologies come out of academia. But now clouds are these closed boxes you can't get into. So we had this incredible opportunity. There'd be this data center, the Massachusetts Green High Performance Computing Data Center, MGHPCC. 15 megawatts. That's more than half the size of one of Google's 16 data centers. That had been built, right next to Hydro Dam, one third the power costs of what it is in Boston. By five big institutions: MIT, Harvard, BU, Northeastern, UMass. And we thought, wow, couldn't we create a cloud there? Couldn't we create a cloud with some 157,000 potential students as well as the broader ecosystem? So we started discussing that idea. All the universities kind of signed up behind it. The model of the cloud is not to create another single provider cloud. It's not going to be my cloud. The idea is to have many vendors participate. Stand up different services, and create an open cloud, where there's not just multiple tenants but there's also multiple landlords with the cloud. >> Great. Could you talk to us a little about how do some of those pieces get chosen? How does OpenStack fit into it? And if you can talk about some of the underlining pieces it'd be good to understand how you sort that out too. >> Sure. So in doing that we, it's actually been sort of this cool, you know you have to kind of build different levels simultaneously. When we started the project, you know our first thing was, oh you know we'll be able to just stand up a cloud. It wasn't that easy. OpenStack is actually a complicated learning curve to get up. Now it's matured tremendously. We've been in production for about ten months, with no significant failures. I'm almost thinking that we need to kind of bring it down for a couple hours. Just so the people start realizing this is not intended to be a place where you run it like you would a production data center facility. That we don't guarantee it as so, 'cause people are starting to assume we do. (laughing) But, we started off and we sort of solved OpenStack, got it up and running. Took us a while to get it to the production layer. Started hosting courses, and users, and stuff like that. And some tastes that with sort of two other tracks. One is I'm developing some of the base technologies to enable a cloud to be multi-vendor. So mix-and-match fetterations serve our core of that. Which is this new capability that we've, after like five iterations on the right way to do this to allow multiple different clouds with their own keystone, mix different administrators say from MIT or Harvard, or from companies that might want to participate and set up a service. So, to have a capability of fettering between those things. Allowing you, for example, to use storage from one and compute from another. We started off with OpenStack because OpenStack already had the right architecture. It was designed as a series of different services. Each one which could be scaled independently. Each one that had it's own well defined API. And it seemed natural, jeez, we should be able to compose them together. Have, you know, one stand up, Nova compute. Another one stand up, Swift storage. Another one stand up, Cinder Storage. Turned out not to be that easy. There was assumptions that all these services were stood up by the same administrative entity. After three iterations of trying to figure out with the community how to make it, we finally have a capability of doing that now. That we're putting into production in the MOC itself. >> You talked about the different projects inside OpenStack, that's been one of the discussions here this week at the Summit. Different projects, the core, which are important and also the whole ecosystem of other cloud native and open source projects that have grown-up around OpenStack over the last six or seven years. Any commentary on how, which kind of projects you're finding are the most useful and the UC as kind of the core of OpenStack going on? And also, which projects from other ecosystems do you think are natural fits into working on an OpenStack base platform? >> Sure. So in our environment, we serve all the core services you think of, obviously Nova and Cinder and Swift. We're using Ceph in most of our environments. Sahara, Heat. We've actually expanded beyond in a couple of different dimensions. I guess that, one thing is we've been using extensively Ceph, that's been very valuable for us. And we've also been modifying it actually, substantially. It's actually kind of exciting cause we have graduate students that are making changes that are now going upstream in the Ceph community as a result of their experiences in doing things within our environment. But, there's other projects that sort of tied in sort of two different levels. One is we're working very closely with Red Hat, today around OpenShift. And we're making the first deployment of that available in the very near future. And the other thing is very important for our environment, we have I think three different talks related to this to have data sets in the cloud. To have data sets shared between communities of people. Data sets that are discoverable. Data sets where you can actually, that are citable. So we've been working very closely with Harvard and the OpenSource dataverse community and we've together created the cloud dataverse. Which is now actually in the MOC. So researchers from all these institutions can actually publish their data sets. As well as researchers from around the world. So there's over 15,000 data sets today in the Harvard dataverse for example. >> Curious if you can give us any commentary on how open source fits into education these days? Talk about the pipeline and the next generation of workers. Do your students get, you talked about upstream contributions, how do they get involved? How early are they getting involved? >> Well, actually, that's sort of a bit of a passion of mine. So multiple different levels, I guess. One of them I think is this is a great way for a student to sort of get exposed to a broad community of people to interact with. I think it's, rather than going in to serve one company, and getting locked down doing one thing, I think it's just enormously valuable. There's sort of two different dimensions I guess, educationally and from a research prospective. And both of them were very tied to open source. So from an education perspective, we have a course, for example, one of my frustrations of having come back from industry was students had done a lot of great, learned how to program, often as individuals they really didn't learn how to do agile, they didn't learn how to work with teams of people, so we have a large course that's served by multiple institutions today that's sort of tied to the MOC where we actually have industry mentors, we teach them agile methods, we teach them a lot of the sort of fundamentals of cloud, but we also have industry mentors come in and mentor teams of five students to create a product. There's actually three different lightning talks by different students that have taken this course, that are here in the OpenStack forum today. So it's kind of exciting to see. We've had several hundred students that have learned that and at least, in my experience, learning how to deal with open source communities, mentorship is a great way of doing that. First year we started teaching this course we had sort of struggled finding mentors, now we're about twice as many mentors applying to mentor teams as we can accommodate in it. So that's been kind of exciting. >> That's great. That's super important and learning right and not just learning how to program but how to operate as a engineer and a team. >> So in the MOC itself, a lot of it's stood up by students. We have like 20 to 30 students. We have a very small core development in our operations team and most of it is actually students doing all the real work. It's been amazing how much they can accomplish in that environment. >> You mentioned OpenShift. So another conversation that's been somewhat confusing in the broader industry is the talking about containers versus VMs and virtualization and OpenStack. Here this week, I thought it's been a fairly clear message that there's some you can be containerizing the stack itself and then there's also a role for containers on top. Obviously been involved in virtualization for a long time, how are you seeing the evolution of both containerization as a technology, but also container based platforms versus kind of the infrastructure and provisioning of the cloud part? >> I mean, there's three levels that all have its role. There's actually people that want to control all the way down to the operating system and want to do, customize things who want to use SRLV and want to use accelerators that haven't. So there's people that actually want hardware as a service and we provide a capability for doing that that's got its limitations today. There's people that want to use virtual machines and there's people that actually want to use containers. And the ability to orchestrate setting up a complex multitiered environment on that and doing fine-grain sharing in a containerized environment is huge. I think that actually all three are going to have a continued role going forward. And certainly containerized approach is an awesome way to deploy a cloud environment and scale the cloud environment even the IAS environment. So we're certainly doing that. >> Love the idea of the collaboration you have both intermittently with all the universities. Are you getting reached out by outside of Massachusetts? How do you interact with the broader community and share ideas back and forth? >> So of course there is multiple streams of that one of them is our industry partners are very broad. Second, we've participated in sort of the OpenStack Summits and all those kind of things. The other thing is that the model that we are doing, I think has a lot of excitement and interest from very many different segments. I don't think people want to see the public cloud be dominated, or could see always be dominated by a very small number of vendors. So the idea of actually creating an open mall of cloud. Lots of other academic institutions have talked with us both about setting up sister organizations, fettering between clouds and replicating the model. We're still at an early stage. This model still has to be proven out. We're excited that we have users that are using us now to get their work done. Rather than just courses and things like that. But it's still at a very early stage So I think as we scale up we'll start looking at replicating that model more broadly. >> Is there any public information about what you're doing? And I'm curious, will this tie into like mooc delivery, things like that? >> Oh, absolutely yeah. It's all on our webpage info.massopencloud.org. So everything is done in the open, I guess. So all the projects, they're all, everything is on the websites and you can discover all about it. And we welcome participation from a broad community. And are excited about that. >> Orran Krieger. Really appreciate you sharing with our community everything there. Congratulations. Local, we'd love to stop by some time to check out even more. John and I will be back with lots more coverage here from openStack Summit 2017, Boston, Massachusetts. You're watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>> Voiceover: Live from Boston, Massachusetts, it's the Cube, covering OpenStack Summit 2017. Brought to you by the OpenStack Foundation, Red Hat, and additional Ecosystem as support. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman joined by John Troyer. This is Silken Angle Media's production of the Cube at OpenStack Summit. We're the world wide leader in tech coverage, live tech coverage. Happy to welcome back to the program someone we've had on so many times we can't keep track. He is the creator of the term Pets versus Cattle, he is one of the OG of The Cloud Group, Randy, you know, wrote about everything before most of it was done. So good to see you, thank you for joining us. >> Thanks for having me. >> Alright, so Randy, coming into this show we felt that it was a bit of resetting expectations, people not understanding, you know, where infrastructure's going, a whole hybrid multi-cloud world, so, I mean you've told us all how it's going to go, so where are we today, what have people been getting wrong, what's your take coming into this week and what you've seen? >> Well, I've said it before, which is that the public clouds have done more than just deliver compute storage and networking on demand. What they've really done is they've built these massive development organizations. They're very sophisticated, that are, you know, that really come from that Webscale background and move at a velocity that's really different than anything we've seen before, and I think the hope in the early days of OpenStack was that we would achieve a similar kind of velocity and momentum, but I think the reality is is that it just hasn't really materialized; that while there are a lot of projects and there are a lot of contributors the coordination between them is very poor, and you know it's just not the, like architectural oversight that we really needed isn't there. I, a couple years ago at the Openstack Silicon Valley gave a presentation called The Lie of the Benevolent Dictator, and I chartered a course for how we could actually have more of a technical architecture oversight, and just that really fell on deaf ears. And so we continue to do the same thing and expect different results and I just, that's a little disappointing for me. >> Yeah. So what is your view of hybrid cloud? You know, no disagreement, you look at what the public cloud companies, especially the big three, the development that they can do, Amazon, a thousand new features a year, Google, what they can do with data, Microsoft has a whole lot of applications and communities around them. We're mostly talking about private cloud here, it was a term that you fought against for many years, we've had great debates on it, so how does that hybrid play out? Cause customers, they're keeping on premises. Edge fits into a lot of this too, so it's, there's not one winner, it's not a zero sum game, but how does that hybrid cloud work? >> Yeah so, I didn't fight against private cloud, I qualified it. I said if it's going to be a private cloud it's got to be built and look and smell the way that the public cloud was. Alright? If it's just VM ware with VM's on demand, that's not a private cloud. That was my position. And then in terms of hybrid cloud, you know, I don't think we're there yet. I've presented on this at many different OpenStacks, you can see it in the past, and I sort of laid out what needs to happen and that didn't happen. But I think there's hope, and I think the hope comes in the form of Kubernetes, and to a certain degree, Helm. And the reason that Kubernetes with Helm is very powerful is that Kubernetes gives us a computive traction, so that you don't care if you're on the public cloud, or you know OpenStack or Vmware or whatever, and then what Helm gives us is our charts, so ways to deploy services, not just software, and so what we could think about doing in the future is building hybrid cloud based off of Kubernetes and Helm. >> Yeah, so Randy since last time we talked you've got a new role, you're now with Juniper. Juniper had done a Contrail acquisition. You know, quite a few years back you wrote a good blueprint on one of the Juniper forums about the OpenContrail communities. So tell us a little bit about your role, your goals, in that community. >> So OpenContrail has been a primarily Juniper initiative, and we're going to press the reset button on the OpenContrail community. I'm going to do it tonight and call for people to sort of get involved in doing that reset, and when I say reset I mean, wipe the operating system, reload it from scratch, and do it really as a community, not just as a Juniper run initiative, and so people inside Juniper are very excited about this, and what we're trying to do is that we believe that the path forward for OpenContrail is ubiquitous adoption. So rather then playing for just the pieces that we have, which we've done a great job of, we want to take the world's best SDN controller and we want to make sure everybody uses it, because we think aggregate that's good for not only the entire community but also Juniper. >> So, love the idea of kind of rebooting the community in the open, right, because you have to be transparent about these sort of things. >> Randy: Yeah, that's right. >> What are the community segments that you would like to see join you here in the OpenContrail? What kind of users, what kind of companies would you like to see come in to the tent? >> Well anybody's welcome, but we want to start with all of our key stakeholders that exist today, so first one, and arguably one of the most important is our competitors, right so we're hoping to have Mirantis at the table, maybe Ericcson, Huawei, anybody. Cisco, hey come join the party. Second is that we have done really well in Sass and in gaming, and we'd like to see all of those companies come to the table as well, Workday, Symantech, and so on. The third segment is enterprises, we've done well in financial services, we think that that's a really important segment because they're leading edge of enterprises typically, and the fourth is the carrier's obviously incredibly important for Juniper, folks like AT&T, Direction Telecom, all those companies we'd love to see come to the table. And then that's really the primary focus, and then anybody else who wants to show up, anybody who wants to develop in Contrail in the future we'd love to have there. >> Well with open source communities, right, there's always a balance of the contributors and developers versus operators, and we can use the word contributors in a lot of roles. Some open source communities, much more developer focused, >> Randy: That's right. >> Others more operator focused, where do you see this OpenContrail community starting out? >> So where it's been historically is more of our end users and operators. >> I think that's interesting and an interesting twist because I think sometimes open source communities get stuck with just the people who can contribute code, and I'm from an operator community myself, >> Randy: Right. >> So I think that's really interesting. >> We still want all those people but I think what has happened is that when people have come in and they wanted to be more sort of on the developer side, the community hasn't been friendly to them. >> John: Okay. >> Randy: And so we want, that's a key thing that we want to change. You know when we were talking, to certain carriers they came and they said look, it's great you're going to do this, we want to be a part of it, and one of the things we'd like to contribute is more advanced testing around VMFs. And I just look at that and I'm just like that's what we need, right? Juniper is not, can't carry all the water on having, you know, sophisticated test suites for VMFs and more advanced networking use cases, but the carriers are deep into this and we'd love to have them come and bring that. So not just developers, but also QA, people who want to increase the code quality, the architectural quality, and the aggregate value of OpenContrail. >> Okay, Randy can you help place OpenContrail where it fits in this kind of networking spectrum, especially, there's open source things, we've talked about about VPP a couple times on theCube here. The joke for many years was SDN still does nothing, NFV solutions have grown, have been huge use case, is really where the early money for big deployments have been for OpenStack. Where does OpenContrail fit, where does it kind of compare and contrast against some of the other options out there. >> I'm going to answer that slightly differently. I've been skeptical about SDN overlays for a long time, and now I am helping with one of the world's best SDN overlays, and what's changed for me is that in the last year I've seen key customers of Contrail's, of Juniper's actually do something very interesting, right. You've got an SDN overlay, it's complex, it's hard to void, you got to wonder, why should I do this? Well I thought the same thing about virtualization, right, until I figured out, sort of what was the killer app. And what we've seen is a company, one of our customers, and several others, but one in particular I can talk about publicly, Riot Games, take containers and OpenContrail and marry them so that you have an abstraction around compute, and an abstraction around networking, so that their developers can write to that, and they don't care whether that's running on top of public cloud, private cloud, or in some partner's data center globally. And in fact they're going to talk about that today at OpenContrail days at 3:30, and are going to present a lot more details, and that's amazing to me because by abstracting a way and disintermediating the public clouds, you actually have more power, right. You can build your own framework. And if you're using Kubernetes as a baseline you can do a lot more on top of that computing network abstraction. >> You talked about OpenContrail days, again my first summit, I've actually been impressed by the foundation, acknowledging there's a huge landscape of open source and other technologies around there, OpenStack itself doesn't invent everything. Can you talk a little bit about that kind of attitude of bringing, I mean we talk about Kubernetes and that sort of thing, but all the other CNCF projects, monitoring, even components like SCD, right, we're talking about here at this conference. So, can you talk a little bit about how OpenStack can interact with the rest of the open source and cloud native at-large community? >> That's sort of a tough question John. >> John: Okay. >> I mean the reason I say that is like the origins of OpenStack are very much NIH and there has been a very disturbing tendency to sort of re-invent the wheel. A great example is Keystone, still to this day I don't know why Keystone exists and why we created a whole new authentic standard when there were dozens and dozens of battle-tested, battle-hardened protocols and bits of code that existed prior. It's great that we're getting a little bit better at that but I still sense that the origins of the community and some of the technical leadership have resistance to organizing and working with outside components and playing nice. So, it's better but it's not great, it's not where it should be. Really OpenStack needs to be broken down into a lot of different projects that can compete with each other and all run in parallel without having to be so tightly wound together. It's still disappointing to me that we aren't doing that today. >> Randy, wonder if you could give us a little bit of a personal reflection, you've been involved in cloud many years, we've talked about some of the state of it, where do you think enterprises are when they think about their IT, how IT relates to business, some of the big challenges they're facing, and kind of this rapid pace of change that's happening in our industry right now >> Yeah well the pressures just increase. The need to pick up speed and to move faster and to have a greater velocity, that's not going away, that seems to be like an incredible macro-trend that's just going to keep driving people towards the next event. But what I see is that the tension between the infra-structure IT teams and the line of business hasn't really started to get resolved. You see a lot of enterprises back into using DevOps as a way to try to fix the culture change problems but it's just not happening fast enough. I have a lot of concerns that basically private cloud or private infra-structure for enterprises will just not materialize in the way it needs to for the next generation. And that the line of business will continue to just keep moving to public cloud. All the while all the money that's being reinvested in the public cloud is increasing their capabilities in terms feature sets and security capabilities and so on. I just, I don't see the materialization of private cloud happening very well at this point in time and I don't see any trendlines that tell me it's going to change. >> Yeah, what recommendations do you give today to the OpenStack foundation? I know that you haven't been shy in the past about giving guidance as to the direction, what do you think needs to happen to be able to help customers along that journey that they need? >> I don't give any guidance to the OpenStack Foundation anymore, I'm not on the Board of Directors, and frankly I gave a lot of advice in the past that fell on deaf ears and people were unwilling to make the changes that were necessary I think to create success. And even though I was eventually proven right, there doesn't seem to be an appetite for change. I would say that the hard partition between the Board of Directors and the technical committee that was created at the outset with the founding of the Foundation has let to a big problem which is that there's simply business concerns that are technical concerns and there are technical concerns which are business concerns and the actual structure of the Foundation does not allow that to occur because that hard partition between them. So if people on Board of Directors can't actually tell the TC that they'd like to see certain technical changes because they're business concerns and Technical Committee can't tell the Board of Directors they'd like to see business changes made because they're technical concerns around them. And I think that's, it's fundamentally broken until the bylaws are fixed. >> So Randy beyond what we've talked about already what's exciting you these days, you look at like the serverless trend, is that something that you find intriguing or maybe contrary view on it, what's exciting you these days? >> Serverless is really interesting. In fact I'd like to see serverless at the edge. I think it would be fascinating if Amazon webservices could sell a serverless capability that was actually running in the mobile carriers edge. So like on the mobile towers or in essential offices. But you could do distributive computation for IOT literally at the very edge of the network, that would be incredibly powerful. So I am very interested in serverless in that regard. With Kubernetes, I think that this is the future, I think I've seen most of the other initiatives start to fail at this point. Docker Incorporated just hasn't made the progress they need to, hopefully a change in leadership will fix that. But it does mean that more and more people are gravitating towards Kubernetes and that's a thing because whereas OpenStack is historically got no opinion, Kubernetes is a much more prescriptive model and I think that actually leads to faster innovation, a greater pace of change and combined with Helm charts, I think that we're going to see an ecosystem develop around Kubernetes that actually could be a counterweight to the public clouds and really be sort of cloud agnostic. Private, public, at the edge, who cares? >> Randy Bias, always appreciated your very opinionated viewpoints on everything that are happening here. Pleasure to catch up with you as always. John and I will be back will lots more coverage here from OpenStack Summit in Boston, thanks for watching the Cube.

>> Voiceover: Live from Boston, Massachusets, it's The Cube, covering OpenStack Summit 2017, brought to you by the OpenStack foundation, RedHat, and additional ecosystem support. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman, joined by my co-host John Troyer. We're really digging in to some of the practitioners here on day three of our coverage. Happy to welcome back to the program, a Cube alum. Not only that, a super user, and not only that, a cowinner Paddy Power Betfair, Steve Armstrong, principal automation engineer. Thanks so much for joining us and congratulations to you and all team. >> Thank you, thanks very much. >> Alright, so, we've had you on the program, bring us up to speed, you know, where's your OpenStack deployment going, where are you spending your time? You know, at the event and stuff. >> So we're just recently, last year, merged companies, so what we're doing with it at OpenStack implantation at the moment is we're migrating all of our applications onto it from the merged company, so we're in the migration phase of the project at the moment, so we just recently, just after Christmas, had the hundred applications onto the platform. Mayston, we're now up to around 200 applications, so what we're doing with it is we've got a single customer platform which is the Merscode base of the two companies, and then we're going to run different branding from it. So in terms of OpenStack, what we're doing is we're looking to do an upgrade in the next month, as well. We had the session earlier on today where we went through that, so hopefully that was insightful for the people that were here. >> So fascinating, I'll tell you what, one of the, you know, there are many challenges with mergers and acquisitions. IT can be atrocious. I've worked with plenty of companies, if they're small, the parent company comes in, rips out the entire thing, and puts a new thing. How's OpenStack, is that an enabler? Do you see it as a marked improvement? Any findings that you've got so far? >> Well I think with OpenStack, it is very flexible because we're using it as the Middleware for the whole platform, and so we've got different storage vendors, we can just substitute the end and then go to the OpenStack APIs, that programmatically control everything. So, it's really useful for us, so if we ever wanted to essentially use a new storage vendor then we don't have to rewrite all the self-service orchestration our developers are using and interrupt them, so that's really, that's key for us and our business. >> It's interesting you use the word middleware. I haven't heard that word used in terms of OpenStack, but you mean the layer, literally the layer, between storage networking the raw infrastructure, and the app on top. >> Yeah, so what we're really doing, we've created self-service template that our development teams use, and we then want multiple different ways for teams to create virtual machines and basically go the APIs directly, so what we've done is we've created a layer using Felt Works School, and where development teams fill in self-Service yamafells with all the details that it needs and then they can send them for structure that way, so we're simplifying it and making it user-friendly for them so that when they're onboarding an application, they don't actually need to come to the infrastructure team. They can basically self-serve against OpenStack, so I think that's giving them that EWS or Google Cloud or Azure-like ability within the private cloud, and we've had to really change the way our business is set-up to actually operate that, so generally what we've done is we set up different teams where they're more T-shaped teams, so you, in a T-shape team, you have a network engineer, you have a storage guy, you have some automation engineers, someone maybe from a development background, and what we really did with it, when we're building the pilot process, we tried to encapsulate all those different scales within the one team and set them up as a core team that would then go and build the infrastructure using best practices from each discipline. >> So a T-shaped in the sense that, the team is still cross-functional, what's the 'T' of the T-shape. >> So, the debt of the T is really the deep-dive expertise, so you might have a network engineer who has a deep-dive knowledge in that, but what we're trying to do is expand the teams breadth, so the breadth is the T is really the other disciplines that they are learning as part of that team. >> And congrats on the award again. >> Steve: Thank you. >> As they talked about the award, some of the description of why you got the award, they did mention, the words dev-ops and CICDs. You talked a little bit about an order structure and changing your org, and processes to do that. Now do you call that T-shaped, is that a dev-ops team for you, or how do you all look at it? >> We don't really like to use dev-ops team because it is kind of a- >> That was a trick question. >> Yeah, a leading question, so it was really, a. What we try to do is have cross-functional teams so really dev-ops for us, what it means, is more collaboration between those teams. We've still got teams at the moment within our business that are looking after the heritage legacy stacks at the moment, so what we'll need to do going forward in our business is bring those teams into the fold cause we've really had, I mean, essentially what we're doing at the moment, it's, like, gotten our bimodal, where you essential have more to, we're beltless. We need to take that to the next level and basically bring the people that have been looking after the other parts of the business because you need to maintain them while we're doing this new private-cloud implementation, along on that journey, so we're running training sessions now for our network engineers, teaching them mansible skill in the map, so it's really exciting time, just bringing on that journey. >> I actually think that's fascinating, because there's been a lot of talk about bimodal, type one versus type two and the word from the community and from the end users' raids, that's not sustainable. So, what you're saying is is indeed you can organize that way, but you've got to bring the old teams- >> Yeah, I think you can put names on anything, but generally that's what you do, you stand up, we stood up a brand new Greenfield implementation. You needed to people to go over to that, and act in a different way because OpenStack, it doesn't make sense having different styles, looking after different components of it, because OpenStack centralizes that into middleware, so it's actually quite difficult to chop that up into different styles. If you're going to do it, you couldn't have someone just looking after sender for instance because it's so incorporated with the rest of the stack. So really what we're doing is we're exposing that API layer to the developers and allowing them to self-service against it, and then we look after the core team, the maintenance of it, so we've done this with the team. Eight people looking after the core platform, and then we've got multiple different teams that went out and they helped the developers onboard many applications onto the platform by teaching them the self-service workflows and how to fill out all the yama files, and then if there's any feedback from them, we use a continuous improvement model to try and get them to improve the platform continuously. So, it's a continuum process and it's gets better and better each day, and hopefully we're going to speed up the amount of deployment that we can do and speed up take to market for it. >> Nice. So Steve, we've very much appropriated, you know, your organization sharing with our community. You're very active, obviously, in the super user. Talk about how you interact with your peers, you know, how that helped with your learnings, kind of that give and take that you have with the community. >> Yeah, so with the community, really, we come to these events, and we generally try to be as open as possible and just talk about our lessons learned. I think the OpenStack Summit's great for that because people are very honest. It's not like vendor-led. And met-ups, for instance, where they'll just tell you that everything's great and they're very self-deprecating in some of the sessions, but I think that honesty with the OpenSource community and the continual learning that you get from that is really key to actually looking at the problems, seeing 'OK, we're not 100% perfect' cause you never will be, and continuously improving as a community. So, I think having the belief then to drive with the OpenSource community is very key in that, and because that, I think, what you can do is if something in OpenStack isn't working the way that you want it to, you can contribute back and you can actually help make a difference and make it better. That's what we're trying to and there's projects such as Vitrush or Rickos and Alice's where at the moment you don't have a sense of plug-in, we use senses, so we begin to contribute back in write in a plug-in for that project so that we can use it, and then others basically benefit from that as well, so I think that's where OpenStack's very key. Your hear Edward Snowden's keynote, some controversial things in there, but at the same time, the premise was really if your putting your data somewhere else, like in public cloud, you don't actually know what's happening with, so that was something that resonated quite well because you have to look at what workload you want to run in public cloud and which ones you can run in private cloud, so I think it would really... We're just getting on to the next stages, and evolution and that journey where we will be looking at what workloads we place where, and I think that is where tubes like Cooper Nessus are really thriving, because they can place workloads wherever you want, and that's the popularity is so high. >> I'm wondering if you can speak a little bit to your company's corporate culture that allows, you know, this movement. I think, you know, information's open, eventually the house always wins on these bets, alright, with so much information available. >> Yeah, so, I think for us, the way that we've been able to do this is we've had sponsorship from CT level and Director level down, and it's very hard when you're doing a grassroots movement of just engineers trying to do this from the ground up. You really have to have a company that believes in this philosophy and wants to take it forward. And for us, what we really wanted to was just create a platform that allowed our developers to innovate on it, and just basically make the best tubes possible for our customers. >> So you're a longtime OpenStack user. We're now here in Boston, you know, Summits every six months. Anything in particular about the mood of people, the operators here, kind of how you would like to see both, you know, we've talked about Cooper and Eddie's, you've talked about different modules that you might want to see, you know, some activity in, or, just how you see in the future, path of OpenStack, how would you like the community and the project to grow? >> Well, I think there is a lot of presentations on stand-alone apps in OpenStack, so you have center stand-alone for box storage, you have ironic stand-alone. We use some of those projects to actually build it out, so I think module-bar rising it, and allowing it to be used, you might not want to install all of OpenStack, but why can't you install sender for instance, to control box storage, and so I think that's really the future of it. People could take all of it, or they could take different components of it, and I think that's what we're seeing in the community. People want to be able to install sender to help manage it, and maybe not install neutron or keystone alongside it, so I think that's really where OpenStack is going. It will be a modular metal service framework that makes it up, and you can install the best that you want in the project that you want. We've also seen a consolidation of projects, that the results of talk are in that eventually making projects simpler and removing features. I think when we originally had OpenStack, we just tried to throw every feature possible in, and then you seen a sprawl of projects, and then that's not maintainable. I think what we're getting down to is just the key projects that then use going forward, So I think you see the consolidation and then stand-alone instances that you can kind of plug-in the edges. >> So, Steve, let me speak a little bit about your business. I have to think there's few companies, you know, at least definitely fewer industries, that, deal with the rate of change and the uncertainty in the world, you know, more than really gambling in everything, that happens there. Anything changing in kind of the relationship of IT to the business? How does OpenStack help you respond to a very dynamic environment. >> Yeah, so, I think the key thing for us, is if one of our competitors has a feature, and we can't compete with that feature, we just will loose our customers to that competitor. So really being able to change and use OpenStack to change the platform and get new products out to market as quickly as possible is very key for us. Generally OpenStack is helping is we want an active, active data center We have a 24/7 business. We really need to have that uptake. If we are down, any sporting event, our customers will go somewhere else to place bets. So that's really key. And, for us, we've used OpenStack across two data centers, and built that out, and what we're looking to do is scale that out horizontally. So, for instance, when we've got new applications coming up onboard, we can just scale out new ratchets in openstack, we use ironic. We're completely controlling the whole data center programmatically, and that allows us the ability to scale up the infrastructure to meet the demands so that people are not waiting on tickets, or not having the internal IT processes that are handling most of our firms, so that's really where OpenStack is allowing us to evolve is that flexibility in having a private cloud just like you would a public cloud with VWS, but we've got that in-house. So I think we're quite lucky, and I keep telling the garages that are working on this, this is a once in a lifetime project, and I don't think they'll really believe me until they get their next job, so I think they're being quite spoiled in this as well. >> Steve Armstrong, really appreciate you joining us again on the program, and once again congratulations at Paddy Power Betfair and the whole team, and John and I will be back with more coverage here from the OpenStack Summit 2017 in Boston, Massachusetts You're watching the Cube.

>> Announcer: Live, from Boston, Massachusetts, it's theCUBE, covering OpenStack Summit 2017. Brought to you by The OpenStack Foundation, Red Hat, and additional ecosystems support. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman, and my cohost this week has been John Troyer. This is SiliconANGLE Media's production of theCUBE, worldwide leader in live tech coverage. And this has been OpenStack Summit 2017 in Boston, Massachusetts. John, we came in with a lot of questions. One of my premises, coming into the event was that we needed to reset expectations, a little bit. I know I learned a lot this week. Still one of my favorite communities. A lot of really smart people. Really interesting things going on. Open source infrastructure is really the focus here. Start with you, big meta takeaways from the show so far. >> Big picture, my first summit, my first summit here. Didn't quite know what to expect. I love the community, a lot of activity. A lot of real world activity going on. People building clouds today. So that was very insightful and very, that's a great data point. As far as the ecosystem goes, a lot more talk about integrating with the rest of the open source ecosystem, about integrating with other public and private clouds. So I thought that there was also a lot of self awareness here about where OpenStack is on it's journey and how it might proceed into the future. So overall, I think, you know, a really practical, focused, and grounded week. >> Yeah, came in with the whole concept of big tent. I think which we said, there's a big hole poked in that. There's the core is doing well, there's a number of projects, I forget the user survey, whether you know, there's the kind of the six core pieces and then there's like 9 or 10 in the average configuration. So there's more than the core, there's interesting things going into it and last year I felt that OpenStack kind of understood where it fit into that hybrid cloud environment. As you pointed out this year, some of those upper layer things, I feel like I understand them a little more. So, of course, containers and Kubernetes, a big piece of the discussion this week. Containers definitely transforming the way we build our applications. It seems a given now, that containers will be a big part of the future and OpenStack's ready for it. We had yesterday, we had the people that did the demo in the keynote, but containers doing well. Kubernetes fits in pretty well, even though, I think it was Randy Bias that said, "Well, OpenStack needs Kubernetes." My paraphrase is Kubernetes doesn't need OpenStack. KubeCon is going to be in Austin at the end of the year and that show could be bigger than this show was here in Boston. Year over year, for the North American show, attendance is down a little bit, but still robust attendance, lots of different pieces. Containers, Kubernetes, you mentioned some of the other pieces, any other add-ons on that? >> Well now, I mean other than its worth saying that these are not either or, this is all and. If you look at the total addressable market, every place that containers and Kubernetes can play, that's every cloud in the world, right? It's up there at the application layer. If you look at where OpenStack belongs, it is in these private clouds that have special needs, that have, either from privacy, security or functionality latency, just data gravity, right. There's all these reasons why you might want to build out a public cloud and we see that with Telco. Telecomm is building out their own infrastructure, because they need it, because they run the network core. So that's not going away. As far as containers go, again the story was not either or, it's and. You can containerize the infrastructure. That's super useful. Sometimes being bare metal is useful. Separately, you can put containers on top, because that's increasingly becoming the application packaging and interface format. So, I didn't see a lot of ideology here, Stu, and that was refreshing to me. People were not saying there is one true way. This is a modular system that, at this point in it's life cycle, it has to become very pragmatic. >> John, I think that's a great point, because we knock on, and everybody knocks on, OpenStack's not simple and the reason is because IT is not simple. Everybody has different challenges, therefore, it's not a Lego brick, it's lots of ways we put it together. Had some really interesting deep dives with a customer, couple of users today. The Adobe advertising cloud, Paddy Power Betfair, both of those gave us real concrete examples of how and why they build things the way they do. How OpenStack and Kubernetes go together. How acquiring another company, or switching your storage vendors is made easier by OpenStack. So, we've talked to a number of practitioners, they like OpenStack, reminds me of VMware. People like being able to build it and tweak it. Very different scale for some of these environments, but people are building clouds. The Telecom's are doing some good things. All the Linux companies are super excited about the future, that it helps them kind of move up the stack and become more critical environments and how it all ties into this multi-hybrid cloud world. Digital transformation, many of these pieces, I need that modern infrastructure and the open infrastructure coming from OpenStack and related pieces pull it all together. >> Well, where is the innovation going to come from in this next generation of cloud? I thought our segment with Orran, talking about the Massachusetts open cloud, was great, because he's there as a computer science professor, somebody who's been intimately involved with virtualization, with IBM, with VMware, saying, "Okay, we need to build this next generation. "Where can we innovate? We have to own the stack "and OpenStack is a great way for us to innovate "with those different components." One of the challenges, because OpenStack as a set of technologies, is so modular, is where's the knowledge come from? Where's the knowledge transfer? Can you find an OpenStack expert? Do you have to grow them? So, I see that as one challenge going forward for the OpenStack community, is how do we grow the knowledge base? How do we make sure that people are trained up and able to architect and operate OpenStack based clouds? >> Yeah, John, how about the individuals themselves? We talked to Lisa-Marie Namphy about the Ambassadors Program. We talked to a number of our guests throughout the week about training everything, from Orran Krieger, talking about how his students are helping to build this, to engagement contribution. I mean it's nuance, when I look at the future of jobs. A lot of companies here are hiring. Which is always heartening to me. What's your take on that aspect? >> Well, it's still a very vibrant community. You look at these different camps, a lot of them are vendor affiliated these days. There are very few communities that are outside of a vendor and these open source foundations are one source of those. I think, look there's still 5 or 6,000 people here, right? This is not a small event and these people are active, hands on operators, for the most part. So-- >> Yeah and the thing I'd point out, there are lots of companies that have contributors here. The other category is still really big here. A point Lisa-Marie made, many of the people that have contributed here have switched jobs a number of times. NASA helped start it. They kind of left, they came back. Some of the big Telecom companies, they're not selling OpenStack, they're using it to help build their services. So, it's like wait, which are vendors, which are providers? I think we know everybody's becoming a software company. Wait John, TechReckoning, are you a software company yet? >> We use a lot of soft, we use a lot of cloud, mostly on SaaS side. >> At SiliconANGLE Media we actually have a part of our business that is software. We've got a full development team, you know open source plays into somewhat we do, but I guess what I'm saying is, the traditional demarcation between the vendor and the consumer in open source tends to be blurring. I don't remember in the keynote if they had, hey how many people have contributed to the code. That's something that we used to get, partially because we have splintered out this event a little as to, the goals, it's no longer the people building it. They've got lots of ways to do that and a lot of the drama's gone. We had for many years in OpenStack, it was who's going to own what distribution and who's driving what project and a lot of that's come out. We talked about the last couple of years, has it become boring in certain ways? But it's important, it's driving a lot of pieces and OpenStack should be here to stay for awhile. >> Yeah, it's part of the conversation. I love the term open infrastructure. We heard it once or twice. We'll see if that becomes a topic of conversation. Going back to Lisa-Marie Namphy's segment, I encourage people to check out your local OpenStack meet-up right? You'll find that other conversations are going on there, other than just OpenStack. This is an ecosystem, it interacts with the rest of the world. >> Yeah, and talk about that next generation, edge is really interesting, the conversation we had with Beth Cohen. Also talked to Lee Doyle from the analysts perspective. Lots of cool things happening with that next generation of technology. 5G's going to play into it. So, there's always the next next thing and OpenStack's doing a good job to, as a community, to be open, working with it and understanding that they don't need to be all things to all people, certain other pieces will pull in and we have that broad diverse ecosystem. >> Looks a, I'll go out and make a prediction, I think in five years, we're going to look back and we're going to say, actually, OpenStack driven plumbing is going to be driving a lot of the next generation to the internet. >> Yeah, I love that, actually I forget if it's two or three years ago, what I said was that, as Linux took a long time to kind of work its way into all the environments, OpenStack pieces will find its way there. Brian Stevens from Google said, "If it wasn't for open source, in general, "Linux specifically, we wouldn't have "any of the hyperscale guys today." All those companies leverage open source a bunch. We've heard whisperings that, not just the telecommunications, some very large global companies that are trying to figure out how OpenStack fit into it. Coming into the show, it was all the talk about, oh, Intel stopped its joint lab with Rackspace, HPE pulled its cloud out, there's some other hyperscale companies that are looking at OpenStack. It's reached a certain maturity and it will fit in a number of places. All right, well, hey John, we started the beginning of the week, it was cloudy and overcast, a little cool in Boston. The skies opened up, it's blue. I've loved having two weeks here in Boston. Really appreciate you joining me for the journey here. Here for the OpenStack Summit. >> Thanks for having me, it was fascinating. >> Thank you John. Want to thank our audience, and thank the whole team here in Boston, and the broad SiliconANGLE media team. This is our biggest week that we've ever had, as to how much content we're creating. So, thanks so much to everyone. Thanks for our community for watching. As anything, when they scale, let us know if there's things we need to fix or feedback that you have for us. For Stu Miniman, John Troyer, the whole team here in Boston and beyond, I want to thank you so much for watching theCUBE. Be sure to check out SiliconANGLE TV for all the upcoming events. Let us know where we should be at and feel free to reach to us with any comments, and thank you for watching theCUBE. (light techno music)

>> Narrator: Live from Boston, Massachusetts, it's the Cube covering OpenStack Summit 2017. Brought to you by the OpenStack foundation, RedHat, and additional ecosystem support. >> Hi. I'm Stu Miniman here with my cohost John Troyer. Happy to welcome to the program to the program, Carlos Carrera, who's a senior principal product manager with Veritas. Carlos, great to see you. >> Yeah, thank you very much. >> Stu: Alright. >> Great to be here. >> So, so many of the things we talk to here in OpenStack and the Cloud World, is relatively short-lived. The average lifetime of the average Cloud deployment, is like 1.7 years. You've been at Veritas at little bit longer with that, had an opportunity to have a conversation with you about some of your history, so we're going to have to take the abbreviated format of that, but give us a little bit about, you know, your time at Veritas, some of the ebbs and flows of your career. >> Yeah, well, again, thank you for having me here. It's great. Having 16 years with Veritas, as I mentioned before to you, you know, back in 1994, 1995 we created the first file system and volume manager, right. A lot of things happened since then, right. At that point in time, the software defined storage store was not yet there. Back, many years ago, we got some piece of software, running on top of any kind of hardware and we were able to help customers to move workloads from one place to another. In a very agnostic point of view, right. And then we move into clouds and now, three years ago, we started looking into what do we do with OpenStack clouds, because this is going to define... It's going to need something very new, something different. So today, this week, we are very happy because we finally announced hyper scale for open stack, which is a software defined storage solution that has been built for an OpenStack clouds. >> When I look at the industry these days, the term lately is storage services. How we're doing things in software more, open stack is the open source infrastructure piece. You guys are the hipster player in this space. You were doing software defined storage and software services not attached to everything else beforehand so it sounds like openstack's a natural fit. Tell us a little bit more about how Veritas fits into that. >> Well, I think that again, it was a perfect fit but we had to review what we was doing. Okay, because again, I've been many years... I was working with traditional legacy architectures in the past. We had to work class defined system that today can work with 128 notes. But we revisit... Is this what we really need to the new OpenStack clouds, are they going to scale? And as you said is that what I need the storage services. So what do we have to rethink? What do we have to do to provide those storage services to the OpenStack clouds? So three years ago, we had this, we call open flame project that today is Hyperscale. It has been building from scratch. New product, what we call emerging product at Veritas, and finally we got separated from Semantec, and we got all the visibility on the storage gain. And using all the knowhow that we have in history, as I say, we're a very big startup, right? But now, emerging with new products, we need new solutions that have been designed for OpenStack from scratch. >> Could you drill down on the product itself? Is this file block object storage? Is this sitting on top of servers. Laid off in a server-based way? How does it interact with OpenStack drivers? That sort of thing. >> Yeah, that's a good question. So it is senior storage. What we provide is block storage for OpenStack. Something key, it is based on commodity hardware of your choice, so you decided what is the hardware that you want to use. Really, it's 86 servers that you can choose in the market, whatever you want. And one of the key differentiators is that we provide block storage, but we separate the compute plane and the data plane. And this is an architectural decision we had to take three years ago. We said we cannot scale, we cannot provide the storage services that you need in a single layer of storage. Because that is what most of the software defined storage solutions on the market are doing today. And then they're having problems with things like noisy neighbor. They have problems with things like the scalability, like the quality of service, and of course they're having problems with protection. How do I protect my cloud environments with OpenStack? And we as a net pack of company, we have our leading net backup solution, we hear that from our customers. That it is not that we're bringing another solution that is going to bring another noisy neighborhood, so we really have to separate two layers. Compute plane, where you have your first copy, and the data plane, where you use cheaper and deeper storage to keep the second, third copy, and do all the data mining operations. >> That's interesting what you just said there too. Two copies, so you do have a copy that's close to the compute. But then you have another. >> Correct. Because, again, if you take a look to what you have in the market, typically it's one-size-fits-all. So, do you need three copies for everything? And today, you have emerging technologies. You can have things like mySQL, where you need high performance, or you can have things like Cassandra where you need nine copies of them, because the application itself is giving you the resiliency. So if you use a standard solution that for each OpenStack instance, you have three copies, that means you have three copies, three copies, three copies. So nine copies. And it's not only the number of copies. It's that when you make a write, you're writing nine times. And you're writing on the single layer. So we said, we have to separate that. The first thing is that what is the workload? Stop thinking about the storage. Stop thinking this is a pool of SSDs or a pool of HCDs, and then start thinking about the workload. And then we connected that very well with OpenStack because OpenStack, you have the definition of flavors, right? That is how many CPUs do you need? How much memory? But also we extend those flavors to say what do you need in terms of storage? What is the resiliency level that you need? What is the number of copies? What is the minimum performance that you need? What is the maximum performance? It's not only about solving the noisy neighbor with the maximum performance? About limiting, it's about guaranteeing that you are going to have a minimum number of IOs per second. At the end, what you can get, you can have a mySQL running with high performance needs with web servers of the same box without fighting each other. >> Carlos, can you speak a little bit about how customers consume this, how do they buy it, how's it priced? How do you get it to market? We've taught before with Veritas. Storage used to always be in an appliance or an array or things like that and the software cloud world's a little bit differently. How does that fit? >> So today's software only? So you make that decision about what hardware to use. We try to simplify the go to market model. So it's based on subscription. You just pay for the max capacity that you have. And you only pay for what you have at the compute plane. So I think a simple model that we could find to go in the open source projects, and being able to attach to that. >> Okay, could you speak to... When you talk about go to market from a partnership standpoint, it's a big market out there. Veritas, well-known name for many years but what partners are involved in this? Any certifications that are needed? We're working with our typical partners that have some expertise with OpenStack and helping with them. We are now also working with hardware providers. We are working with Supermicro and creating reference architectures with them. So we can have at the end, we have to explain to the customers what they can get from different hardware. So we're working with them. And we're also working with new partners. For example, yesterday with us on the stage, we have Verbanks. Verbanks is an OpenStack ambassador in Netherlands. They have been working with us from the very beginning of the project, on the validation. They understand OpenStack. They understand the issues and they have been doing all the validation with us about, yes guys, this is the right thing. You have to do it from the very beginning. Is this product tuned specifically for OpenStack or will it be available for other kind of private cloud applications. >> We have available for OpenStack, we're going to have it. We'll announce, I think we'll watch with you also, guys, we announced the beta version for Containers. At the end, it's the same thing. It's how do you provide persistent storage for Containers? Ninety percent of the product is all the same. It's that compute plane. It's the data plane. How can I protect my workload from the data plane? Because again, it doesn't matter if it's Container. If it's OpenStack, when I have to protect it, how do I do it? How can I read my data without affecting the performance? And that's where we have the value with the data plane. And, of course, our integration with net backup, our leader of backup solutions in the market, where just with a single click, I'm going to connect OpenStack with NetBackup, and define how my workloads are going to be protected, when and how? >> Here at the show, OpenStack Summit, how has it been working with the community? Sometimes, in the open source world, vendors have to have a certain kind of conversation with that open source community to show that they understand their needs and what they need out of the relationship. How has the week been then? >> So yeah, that's a very good question. And that goes to something that we want to announce hopefully at the end of the year. The first version that we announced this week is based on canonical Ubuntu OpenStack. At the end of the year, we are going to have RedHat, and in our DNA is to be agnostic to the pass, any hardware. And of course now, it's any kind of OpenStack distribution. So we will work with any of them. And something that we want to announce at the end of the year is to have a community edition, for Hyperscale. So again, that is our offering to the community. They can both provide-- >> And would that community edition itself be open source, or just available for the community? >> It would be available for that. >> John: For the community. >> We keep our IP. >> Great. As we get towards the end of the event, I'm sure you've had plenty of interesting customer conversations. Any one, I'm sure you can't mention names, but any interesting anecdote or just a general feel of the community? >> I feel that my anecdote for yesterday, when I had to work presentation, we had a customer on the room. We had been working on a POC with them. We have been very, very helpful customer. We finished. "Do you have any questions?" This guys stands up, went to the microphone and I was thinking, what is he going to ask? He knows everything about the product. And he said, he guys, you are doing the right thing. This is great. I'm fantastic, you are bringing a lot of value here. So I was like, wow. >> In my understanding, it was a big brand name customer who actually said where he was from, which is great validation, something we've heard all week is there's that sharing here with the community, so financial companies who, in the past, wouldn't have done that, TelCos who do that in the past, great to see. Give me the final word, Carlos. >> Yeah, the thing, again, is as you said validation is a key thing. I've been a lot of years in the company. I got this project eight months ago, and all the things I've been doing is validation, talking to customers to I don't know how many analysts I've been talking to in this week. And I love Dan said, yeah, you guys are doing the right thing. This is that direction that we have to move, so happy that finally, emerging again from Veritas, being back here with the community on OpenStack. >> Well, the speed of change, constant learning on new things and helping customers move forward. Big theme we've seen in the show. Carlos Carrera. I appreciate you joining us here. For John and Stu, thanks for watching The Cube here at OpenStack Summit. (mid-tempo electronic music)

>> Announcer: Live from Boston, Massachusetts, it's the CUBE covering OpenStack Summit 2017. Brought to you by the OpenStack Foundation, Red Hat, and additional ecosystem support. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman. And if I'm sitting on this side of the table with the long hallways behind me, it means we're here for the wrap of the second day. John Troyer's here, day two of three days, theCUBE here at OpenStack Summit. John, I feel like you're building energy as the show goes on, kind of like the show itself. >> Yeah, yeah, getting my footing here. Again, my first summit. It was a good second day, Stu, I think we made it through. We had some fascinating stuff. >> Yeah, fascinating stuff. Before we jump into some of the analysis here, I do want to say you know, first and foremost, big thanks to the foundation. Foundations themselves tend to get, they get beat up some, they get loved some, without the OpenStack Foundation, we would not be here. Their support for a number of years, our fifth year here at the show, as well as the ecosystem here, really interesting and diverse and ever-changing ecosystem, and that fits into our sponsors too. So Red Hat's our headline sponsor here. We had Red Hat Summit last week and two weeks, lots of Red Haters, and now lots of Stackers here. Additional support brought to us by Cisco, by Netronome, and by Canonical. By the way, no secret, we try to be transparent as to how we make our money. If it's a sponsored segment, it lists "sponsored by" that guest here, and otherwise it is editorial. Day three actually has a lot of editorial, it means we have a lot of endusers on the program. We do have vendors, cool startups, interesting people, people like Brian Stevens from Google. When I can get access to them, love to have it here. So big shout out as always. Content, we put it out there, the community, try to have it. Back to the wrap. John, you know we've kind of looked at some of the pieces here, the maturity, you know where it fits in the hybrid and multi cloud world. What jumped out at you as you've been chewing on day two? >> Well, my favorite thing from today, and we talked about it a couple times just in passing it keep coming up, is OpenStack on the edge. So the concept of, that the economics works today, that you can have a device, a box, maybe it's in your closet somewhere, maybe it's bolted to a lamppost or something, but in the old days it would have run on some sort of proprietary chip, maybe an embedded Linux. You can put a whole OpenStack distribution on there, and when you do that, it becomes controllable, it becomes a service layer, you can upgrade it, you can launch more services from there, all from a central location. That kind of blew my mind. So that's my favorite thing from today. I finally got my arms around that I think. >> Okay, great, and we saw Beth Cohen from Verizon was in the day one keynote. We're actually going to have her on our program for the third day. And right, teasing out that edge, most of it, telecommunications is a big discussion point here. I understand why. Telcos spend a lot of money, they are at large scale, and that NFV use case has driven a lot of adoption. So Deutsche Telekom is a headline sponsor of the OpenStack Foundation, did a big keynote this morning. AT&T's up on the main stage, Verizon's up on the main stage, you know Red Hat and Canonical all talk about their customers that are using it. You know, we just talked to Netronome about telecommunications. Everybody here, if you're doing OpenStack, you probably have a telco place because that's where the early money is and it tends to be, there's the network edge, then there's the IoT edge, and some of the devices there. So it was was one of the buzzy things going in and definitely is one of the big takeaways from the show so far. >> Well, Stu, I also think it's a major prove point for OpenStack, right. Bandwidth needs are not going down, that's pretty clear, with all the things you mentioned. Throughput is going to have to go up, services are going to have to be more powerful, and so all these different connected devices and qualities of service and streaming video to your car. So if OpenStack can build a back plan, a data plan for OpenStack that can do that, which it looks like they are doing, right, that's a huge prove point downstream from the needs of a telco, so I think that's super important for OpenStack that it's usable enough and robust enough to do that and that's one of the reasons I think it gets talked about so much. The nice thing is this year compared to my comparisons of previous years of OpenStack Summit, telco is not the only game in town, right. Enterprise also got a lot of play and there's a lot of use cases there too. >> And just to close out on that edge piece, really enjoyed the conversation we had with John and Kendall who had worked on the container space. Talking about the maturation of where Cinder had gone, how we went from virtualized environments to containerized environments. And even we teased out a little bit that edge use case. I can have a really small OpenStack deployment to put it at that edge. Maybe that's where some of the serverless stuff fits in. I know I've been, I tell my team, every time I get a good quote on serverless, let's make a gem out of that, put it out there, 'cause it's early days, but that is one of those deployments where I need at the edge environments, I need something lightweight, I need something that's going to be less expensive, can do some task processing, and both containers and potentially serverless can be interesting there. >> Yeah, I mean, even in our Canonical discussion with the product manager for their OpenStack distribution, right, containers are all over that, right, containers are just a way of packaging, there are some really interesting development pipelines that are now very popular and being talked about and built on in the container space. But containerization actually can come into play multiple points in the stack. Like you said, the Canonical distribution gets containerized and pushed out, it's a great way of compartmentalizing and upgrading, that's what the demo on stage today was about. Also, just with a couple of very short scripts, containerizing and pulling down components. So I think again, my second favorite thing after the edge today was just showing that actually containers and OpenStack mix pretty well. They're really not two separate things. >> Right, and I think containerization is one of those things that enables that multi cloud world. We talked in a number of segments today, everything from Kubernetes with Brian Stevens as to how that enables that. Reminds me at Red Hat Summit last week we talked a lot about OpenShift. OpenShift's that layer on top of OpenStack and sits at that application level layer to allow be to be able to span between public or private clouds and we need that kind of you know that to be able to enable some real multi or hybrid cloud environments. >> Yeah I mean, containers and in fact that Kubernetes layer may end up being the thing that drives more OpenStack adoption. >> Yeah, and the other thing that's been interesting, just hallway conversations, bumping into people we know, you know trying to walk around the show a little bit, as to people that are finally getting their arms around, okay, OpenStack from a technology standpoint has matured and you know they either need it to clean up what was their internal cloud or building something out, so real deployments. We talked about it yesterday in the close though. They're real customers doing real deployments. It's heartening to hear. >> Yeah I mean, one of those conversations, I ran into somebody at a hyperscale company, a friend of mine, and you know they are building out, internal OpenStack clouds to use for real stuff, right. >> But wait, hyperscale, come on, John, we can give away. Is this something we have on our phone or something we, I'll buy and use? >> One of those big folks. >> There's a large Chinese company that anybody in tech knows that's supposed to be doing a lot with OpenStack. We heard definitely Asia, very broad use of OpenStack. Been a theme of the whole show, right, is that outside the US where we tend to talk a lot about the public cloud, OpenStack's being used. An undertone I've heard is certain companies that start here in the United States, it's sometimes challenging for a foreign company to say I'm going to buy and use that, absolutely that is a headwind against a company like Amazon. Ties back to we had a keynote this morning with Edward Snowden and some of those things. What is the relationship between government and global companies that have a headquarters in the US and beyond. >> Yeah I think it's too soon to say where the pendulum, how the far the pendulum is going to swing. I'll be very interested in the commentary for next year to see have we moved away from more of the centralized services dominating the entire marketplace and workload into more distributed, more private, more customizable. For all those reasons, there's a lot of dynamics that might be pushing the pendulum in that direction. >> And one of the things I've liked hearing is infrastructure needs to be more agile, it needs to be more distributed, more modularized, especially as the applications are changing. So I feel like more than previous summits I've been at, we're at least talking about how those things fit together. With everything that's happening with the OpenStack Days, the Kubernetes, Cloud Foundry, Ceph, other open source projects, how those all fit together. It feels like a more robust, full position as opposed to , we were just building a software version of what we were doing in the data center before. >> My impression was the conversation at times had been a little more internally focused, right, it's a world unto its own. Here at this summit, they're definitely acknowledging there's an ecosystem, there's a landscape, it all has to interoperate. Usability's a part of that, and then interoperability and componentization is a part of that as well. >> The changing world of applications. We understand the whole reason we have infrastructure is to run those applications, so if we're not getting ready for that, what are we doing? >> I don't want to put words in their mouth, but I think the OpenStack community as a whole, one of their goals, you know, OpenStack needs to be as easy to run as a public cloud. The infrastructure needs to be boring. We heard the word boring a lot actually today. >> Yeah and what we say is, first of all, the public cloud is the bar that you were measured against. Whether it is easier or cheaper, your mileage may vary, because public cloud was supposed to be simple. They're adding like a thousand new features every year, and it seems to get more complicated over time. It's wonderful if we could architect everything and make it simple. Unfortunately, you know, that's why we have technology. I know every time I go home and have some interaction with a financial institution or a healthcare institution, boy, you wish we could make everything simpler, but the world's a complicated place and that's why we need really smart people like we've gotten to interview here at the show. So any final comments, John? >> No, I think that sums it up. Those are my favorite things for today. I'm looking forward to talking to a lot of customers tomorrow. >> Yeah, I'm really excited about that. John, appreciate your help here. So there's a big party here at the show. They're taking everyone to Fenway Park for the Stacker party. Last year it was an epic party in Austin. Boston's fun, Fenway's a great venue. Looks like the rain's going to hold off, which is good, but it'll be a little chillier than normal, but we will be back here with a third day of programming as John and I talked about. Got a lot of users on the program. Really great lineup, two days in the bag. Check out all the videos, go to SiliconANGLE.tv to check it all out. Big shout out to the rest of the team that's at the Dell EMC World and ServiceNOW shows, be able to check those out and all our upcoming shows. And thank you, everyone, for watching theCUBE. (technical beat)

>> Announcer: Live from Boston, Massachusetts, it's theCUBE covering OpenStack Summit 2017. Brought to you by the OpenStack Foundation, Red Hat, and additional ecosystem support. >> And we're back. I'm Stu Miniman with my cohost, John Troyer, getting to the end of day two of three days of coverage here at the OpenStack Summit in Boston. Happy to welcome the program Sujal Das, who is the chief marketing and strategy officer at Netronome. Thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you. >> Alright, so we're getting through it, you know, really John and I have been digging into, you know, really where OpenStack is, talking to real people, deploying real clouds, where it fits into the multi cloud world. You know, networking is one of those things that took a little while to kind of bake out. Seems like every year we talk about Neutron and all the pieces that are there. But talk to us, Netronome, we know you guys make SmartNICs. You've got obviously some hardware involved when I hear a NIC, and you've got software. What's your involvement in OpenStack and what sort of things are you doing here at the show? >> Absolutely, thanks, Stu. So, we do SmartNIC platforms, so that includes both hardware and software that can be used in commercial office house servers. So with respect to OpenStack, I think the whole idea of STN with OpenStack is centered around the data plane that runs on the server, things such as the Open vSwitch, or Virtual Router, and they're evolving new data planes coming into the market. So we offload and accelerate the data plane in our SmartNICs, because the SmartNICs are programmable, we can evolve the feature set very quickly. So in fact, we have software releases that come out every six months that keep up to speed with OpenStack releases and Open vSwitches. So that's what we do in terms of providing a higher performance OpenStack environment so to say. >> Yeah, so I spent a good part of my career working on that part of the stack, if you will, and the balance is always like, right, what do you build into the hardware? Do I have accelerators? Is this the software that does, you know, usually in the short term hardware can take it care of it, but in the long term you follow the, you know, just development cycles, software tends to win in terms, so, you know. Where are we with where functionality is, what differentiates what you offer compared to others in the market? >> Absolutely. So we see a significant trend in terms of the role of a coprocessor to the x86 or evolving ARM-based servers, right, and the workloads are shifting rapidly. You know, with the need for higher performance, more efficiency in the server, you need coprocessors. So we make, essentially, coprocessors that accelerate networking. And that sits next to an x86 on a SmartNIC. The important differentiation we have is that we are able to pack a lot of cores on a very small form factor hardware device. As many as 120 cores that are optimized for networking. And by able to do that, we're able to deliver very high performance at the lowest cost and power. >> Can you speak to us, just, you know, what's the use case for that? You know, we talk about scale and performance. Who are your primary customers for this? Is this kind of broad spectrum, or, you know, certain industries or use cases that pop out. >> Sure, so we have three core market segments that we go after, right? One is the innovene construction market, where we see a lot of OpenStack use, for example. We also have the traditional cloud data center providers who are looking at accelerating even SmartNICs. And lastly the security market, that's kind of been our legacy market that we have grown up with. With security kind of moving away from appliances to more distributed security, those are our key three market segments that we go after. >> The irony is, in this world of cloud, hardware still matters, right? Not only does hardware, like, you're packing a huger number of cores into a NIC, so that hardware matters. But, one of the reasons that it matters now is because of the rise of this latest generation of solid-state storage, right? People are driving more and more IO. Do you see, what are the trends that you're seeing in terms of storage IO and IO in general in the data center? >> Absolutely. So I think the large data centers of the world, they showed the way in terms of how to do storage, especially with SSDs, what they call disaggregated storage, essentially being able to use the storage on each server and being able to aggregate those together into a pool of storage resources and its being called hyperconverged. I think companies like Nutanix have found a lot of success in that market. What I believe is going to happen in the next phase is hyperconvergence 2.0 where we're going to go beyond security, which essentially addressed TCO and being able to do more with less, but the next level would be hyperconvergence around security where you'd have distributed security in all servers and also telemetry. So basically your storage appliance is going away with hyperconvergence 1.0, but with the next generation of hyperconvergence we'd see the secured appliances and the monitoring appliances sort of going away and becoming all integrated in the server infrastructure to allow for better service levels and scalability. >> So what's the relationship between distributed security and then the need for more bandwidth at the back plane? >> Absolutely. So when you move security into the server, the processing requirements in the server goes up. And typically with all security processing, it's a lot of what's called flow processing or match-action processing. And those are typically not suitable for a general purpose server like the ARM or the x86, but that's where you need specialized coprocessors, kind of like the world of GPUs doing well in the artificial intelligence applications. I think the same example here. When you have security, telemetry, et cetera being done in each server, you need special purpose processing to do that at the lowest cost and power. >> Sujal, you mentioned that you've got solutioned into the public cloud. Are those the big hyperscale guys? Is it service providers? I'm curious if you could give a little color there. >> Yes, so these are both tier one and tier two service providers in the cloud market as well as the telco service providers, more in the NFV side. But we see a common theme here in terms of wanting to do security and things like telemetry. Telemetry is becoming a hot topic. Something called in-band telemetry that we are actually demonstrating at our booth and also speaking about with some our partners at the show, such as with Mirantis, Red Hat, and Juniper. Where doing all of these on each server is becoming a requirement. >> When I hear you talk, I think about here at OpenStack, we're talking about the hybrid or multi cloud world and especially something like security and telemetry I need to handle my data center, I need to handle the public cloud, and even when I start to get into that IoT edge environment, we know that the service area for attack just gets orders of magnitude larger, therefore we need security that can span across those. Are you touching all of those pieces, maybe give us a little bit of, dive into it. >> Absolutely, I think a great example is DDoS, right, distributed denial of service attacks. And today you know you have these kind of attacks happening from computers, right. Look at the environment where you have IoTs, right, you have tons and tons of small devices that can be hacked and could flood attacks into the data center. Look at the autonomous car or self-driving car phenomenon, where each car is equivalent to about 2,500 Internet users. So the number of users is going to scale so rapidly and the amount of attacks that could be proliferated from these kind of devices is going to be so high that people are looking at moving DDoS from the perimeter of the network to each server. And that's a great example that we're working with with a large service provider. >> I'm kind of curious how the systems take advantage of your technology. I can see it, some of it being transparent, like if you just want to jam more bits through the system, then that should be pretty transparent to the app and maybe even to the data plane and the virtual switches. But I'm guessing also there are probably some API or other software driven ways of doing, like to say, hey not only do I want you to jam more bits through there, but I want to do some packet inspection or I want to do some massaging or some QoS or I'm not sure what all these SmartNICs do. So is my model correct? Is that kind of the different ways of interacting with your technology? >> You're hitting a great point. A great question by the way, thank you. So the world has evolved from very custom ways of doing things, so proprietary ways of doing things, to more standard ways of doing things. And one thing that has kind of standardized so to say the data plane that does all of these functions that you mention, things like security or ACL roots or virtualization. Open vSwitch is a great example of a data plane that has kind of standardized how you do things. And there are a lot of new open source projects that are happening in the Linux Foundation, such as VPP for example. So each of these standardize the way you do it and then it becomes easier for vendors like us to implement a standard data plane and then work with the Linux kernel community in getting all of those things upstream, which we are working on. And then having the Red Hats of the world actually incorporate those into their distributions so that way the deployment model becomes much easier, right. And one of the topics of discussion with Red Hat that we presented today was exactly that, as to how do you make these kind of scales, scalability for security and telemetry, be more easily accessible to users through a Red Hat distribution, for example. >> Sujal, can you give us a little bit of just an overview of the sessions that Netronome has here at the show and what are the challenges that people are coming to that they're excited to meet with your company about? >> Absolutely, so we presented one session with Mirantis. Mirantis, as you know, is a huge OpenStack player. With Mirantis, we presented exactly the same, the problem statement that I was talking about. So when you try to do security with OpenStack, whether its stateless or stateful, your performance kind of tanks when you apply a lot of security policies, for example, on a per server basis that you can do with OpenStack. So when you use a SmartNIC, you essentially return a lot of the CPU cores to the revenue generating applications, right, so essentially operators are able to make more per server, make more money per server. That's a sense of what the value is, so that was the topic with Mirantis, who uses actually Open Contrail virtual router data plane in their solution. We also have presented with Juniper, which is also-- >> Stu: Speaking of Open Contrail. >> Yeah, so Juniper is another version of Contrail. So we're presenting a very similar product but that's with the commercial product from Juniper. And then we have yesterday presented with Red Hat. And Red Hat is based on Red Hat's OpenStack and their Open vSwitch based products where of course we are upstreaming a lot of these code bits that I talked about. But the value proposition is uniform across all of these vendors, which is when you do storage, sorry, security and telemetry and virtualization et cetera in a distributed way across all of your servers and get it for all of your appliances, you get better scale. But to achieve the efficiencies in the server, you need a SmartNIC such as ours. >> I'm curious, is the technology usually applied then at the per server level, is there a rack scale component too that needs to be there? >> It's on a per server basis, so it's the use cases like any other traditional NIC that you would use. So it looks and feels like any other NIC except that there is more processing cores in the hardware and there's more software involved. But again all of the software gets tightly integrated into the OS vendor's operating system and then the OpenStack environment. >> Got you. Well I guess you can never be too rich, too thin, or have too much bandwidth. >> That's right, yeah. >> Sujal, share with our audience any interesting conversation you had or other takeaways you want people to have from the OpenStack Summit. >> Absolutely, so without naming specific customer names, we had one large data center service provider in Europe come in and their big pain point was latency. Latency going form the VM on one server to another server. And that's a huge pain point and their request was to be able to reduce that by 10x at least. And we're able to do that, so that's one use case that we have seen. The other is again relates to telemetry, you know, how... This is a telco service provider, so as they go into 5G and they have to service many different applications such as what they call network slices. One slice servicing the autonomous car applications. Another slice managing the video distribution, let's say, with something like Netflix, video streaming. Another one servicing the cellphone, something like a phone like this where the data requirements are not as high as some TV sitting in your home. So they need different kinds of SLA for each of these services. How do they slice and dice the network and how are they able to actually assess the rogue VM so to say that might cause performance to go down and affect SLAs, telemetry, or what is called in-band telemetry is a huge requirement for those applications. So I'm giving you like two, one is a data center operator. You know an infrastructure as a service, just want lower latency. And the other one is interest in telemetry. >> So, Sujal, final question I have for you. Look forward a little bit for us. You've got your strategy hat on. Netronome, OpenStack in general, what do you expect to see as we look throughout the year maybe if we're, you know, sitting down with you in Vancouver a year from now, what would you hope that we as an industry and as a company have accomplished? >> Absolutely, I think you know you'd see a lot of these products so to say that enable seamless integration of SmartNICs become available on a broad basis. I think that's one thing I would see happening in the next one year. The other big event is the whole notion of hyperconvergence that I talked about, right. I would see the notion of hyperconvergence move away from one of just storage focus to security and telemetry with OpenStack kind of addressing that from a cloud orchestration perspective. And also with each of those requirements, software defined networking which is being able to evolve your networking data plane rapidly in the run. These are all going to become mainstream. >> Sujal Das, pleasure catching up with you. John and I will be back to do the wrap-up for day two. Thanks so much for watching theCUBE. (techno beat)

>> Narrator: Live from Boston, Massachusetts, it's theCUBE covering OpenStack Summit 2017. Brought to you by the OpenStack Foundation, Red Hat, and additional ecosystem support. (techno music) >> And we're back. I'm Stu Miniman joined by my co-host, John Troyer. Happy to welcome to the program two of the keynote speakers this morning, worked on some of the container activity, Kendall Nelson, who's a Upstream Developer Advocate with the OpenStack Foundation. >> Yep. >> And John Griffith, who's a Principal Engineer from NetApp, excuse me, through the SolidFire acquisition. Thank you so much both for joining. >> Kendall Nelson: Yeah. Thank you. >> John Griffith: Thanks for havin' us. >> Stu Miniman: So you see-- >> Yeah. >> When we have any slip-ups when we're live, we just run through it. >> Run through it. >> Kendall, you ever heard of something like that happening? >> Kendall Nelson: Yeah. Yeah. That might've happened this morning a little bit. (laughs) >> So, you know, let's start with the keynote this morning. I tell ya, we're pretty impressed with the demos. Sometimes the demo gods don't always live up to expectations. >> Kendall Nelson: Yeah. >> But maybe share with our audience just a little bit about kind of the goals, what you were looking to accomplish. >> Yeah. Sure. So basically what we set out to do was once the ironic nodes were spun up, we wanted to set up a standalone cinder service and use Docker Compose to do that so that we could do an example of creating a volume and then attaching it to a local instance and kind of showing the multiple backend capabilities of Cinder, so... >> Yeah, so the idea was to show how easy it is to deploy Cinder. Right? So and then plug that into that Kubernetes deployment using a flex volume plugin and-- >> Stu Miniman: Yeah. >> Voila. >> It was funny. I saw some comments on Twitter that were like, "Well, maybe we're showing Management that it's not, you know, a wizard that you just click, click, click-- >> John Griffith: Right. >> Kendall Nelson: Yeah. >> "And everything's done." There is some complexity here. You do want to have some people that know what they're doing 'cause things can break. >> Kendall Nelson: Yeah. >> I love that the container stuff was called ironic. The bare metal was ironic because-- >> Kendall Nelson: Yeah. >> Right. When you think OpenStack at first, it was like, "Oh. This is virtualized infrastructure." And therefore when containers first came out, it was like, "Wait. It's shifting. It's going away from virtualization." John, you've been on Cinder. You helped start Cinder. >> Right. >> So maybe you could give us a little bit about historical view as to where that came from and where it's goin'. Yeah. >> Yeah. It's kind of interesting, 'cause it... You're absolutely right. There was a point where, in the beginning, where virtualization was everything. Right? Ironic actually, I think it really started more of a means to an end to figure out a better way to deploy OpenStack. And then what happened was, as people started to realize, "Oh, hey. Wait." You know, "This whole bare metal thing and running these cloud services on bare metal and bare metal clouds, this is a really cool thing. There's a lot of merit here." So then it kind of grew and took on its own thing after that. So it's pretty cool. There's a lot of options, a lot of choices, a lot of different ways to run a cloud now, so... >> Kendall Nelson: Yeah. >> You want to comment on that Kendall, or... >> Oh, no. Just there are definitely tons of ways you can run a cloud and open infrastructure is really interesting and growing. >> That has been one thing that we've noticed here at the show. So my first summit, so it was really interesting to me as an outsider, right, trying to perceive the shape of OpenStack. Right? Here the message has actually been very clear. We're no longer having to have a one winner... You know, one-size-fits-all kind of cloud world. Like we had that fight a couple of years ago. It's clear there's going to be multiple clouds, multiple places, multiple form factors, and it was very nice people... An acknowledgement of the ecosystem, that there's a whole open source ecosystem of containers and of other open source projects that have grown up all around OpenStack, so... But I want to talk a little bit about the... And the fact that containers and Kubernetes and that app layer is actually... Doesn't concern itself with the infrastructure so much so actually is a great fit for sitting on top of or... And adjacent to OpenStack. Can you all talk a little bit about the perception here that you see with the end users and cloud builders that are here at the show and how are they starting to use containers. Do they understand the way these two things fit together? >> Yeah. I think that we had a lot of talks submitted that were focused on containers, and I was just standing outside the room trying to get into a Women of OpenStack event, and the number of people that came pouring out that were interested in the container stack was amazing. And I definitely think people are getting more into that and using it with OpenStack is a growing direction in the community. There are couple new projects that are growing that are containers-focused, like... One just came into the projects, OpenStack Helm. And that's a AT&T effort to use... I think it's Kubernetes with OpenStack. So yeah, tons. >> So yeah, it's interesting. I think the last couple of years there's been a huge uptick in the interest of containers, and not just in containers of course, but actually bringing those together with OpenStack and actually running containers on OpenStack as the infrastructure. 'Cause to your point, what everybody wants to see, basically, is commoditized, automated and generic infrastructure. Right? And OpenStack does a really good job of that. And as people start to kind of realize that OpenStack isn't as hard and scary as it used to be... You know, 'cause for a few years there it was pretty difficult and scary. It's gotten a lot better. So deployment, maintaining, stuff like that, it's not so bad, so it's actually a really good solution to build containers on. >> Well, in fact, I mean, OpenStack has that history, right? So you've been solving a lot of problems. Right now the container world, both on the docker side and Kubernetes as well, you're dealing with storage drivers-- >> John Griffith: Yeah. >> Networking overlays-- >> Right. >> Multi-tenancy security, all those things that previous generations of technology have had to solve. And in fact, I mean, you know, right now, I'd say storage and storage interfaces actually are one of the interesting challenges that docker and Kubernetes and all that level of containers and container orchestration and spacing... I mean, it seems like... Has OpenStack already solved, in some way, it's already solved some of these problems with things like Cinder? >> Abso... Yeah. >> John Troyer: And possibly is there an application to containers directly? >> Absolutely. I mean, I think the thing about all of this... And there's a number of us from the OpenStack community on the Cinder side as well as the networking side, too-- >> Yeah. >> Because that's another one of those problem spaces. That are actually taking active roles and participating in the Kubernetes communities and the docker communities to try and kind of help with solving the problems over on that side, right? And moving forward. The fact is is storage is, it's kind of boring, but it's hard. Everybody thinks-- >> John Troyer: It's not boring. >> Yeah. >> It's really awesomely hard. Yeah. >> Everybody thinks it's, "Oh, I'll just do my own." It's actually a hard thing to get right, and you learn a lot over the last seven years of OpenStack. >> Yeah. >> We've learned a lot in production, and I think there's a lot to be learned from what we've done and how things could be going forward with other projects and new technologies to kind of learn from those lessons and make 'em better, so... >> Yeah. >> In terms of multicloud, hybrid cloud world that we're seeing, right? What do you see as the role of OpenStack in that kind of a multicloud deployments now? >> OpenStack can be used in a lot of different ways. It can be on top of containers or in containers. You can orchestrate containers with OpenStack. That's like the... Depending on the use case, you can plug and play a lot of different parts of it. On all the projects, we're trying to move to standalone sort of services, so that you can use them more easily with other technologies. >> Well, and part of your demo this morning, you were pulling out of a containerized repo somehow. So is that kind of a path forward for the mainline OpenStack core? >> So personally, I think it would be a pretty cool way to go forward, right? It would make things a lot easier, a lot simpler. And kind of to your point about hybrid cloud, the thing that's interesting is people have been talking about hybrid cloud for a long time. What's most interesting these days though is containers and things like Kubernetes and stuff, they're actually making hybrid cloud something that's really feasible and possible, right? Because now, if I'm running on a cloud provider, whether it's OpenStack, Amazon, Google, DigitalOcean, it doesn't matter anymore, right? Because all of that stuff in my app is encapsulated in the container. So hybrid cloud might actually become a reality, right? The one thing that's missing still (John Troyer laughs) is data, right? (Kendall Nelson laughs) Data gravity and that whole thing. So if we can figure that out, we've actually got somethin', I think. >> Interesting comment. You know, hybrid cloud a reality. I mean, we know the public cloud here, it's real. >> Yeah. >> With the Kubernetes piece, doesn't that kind of pull together some... Really enable some of that hybrid strategy for OpenStack, which I felt like two or three years ago it was like, "No, no, no. Don't do public cloud. >> John Griffith: Yeah. >> "It's expensive and (laughter) hard or something. "And yeah, infrastructure's easy and free, right?" (laughter) Wait, no. I think I missed that somewhere. (laughter) But yeah, it feels like you're right at the space that enables some of those hybrid and multicloud capabilities. >> Well, and the thing that's interesting is if you look at things like Swarm and Kubernetes and stuff like that, right? One of the first things that they all build are cloud providers, whether OpenStack, AWS, they're all in there, right? So for Swarm, it's pretty awesome. I did a demo about a year ago of using Amazon and using OpenStack, right? And running the exact same workloads the exact same way with the exact same tools, all from Docker machine and Swarm. It was fantastic, and now you can do that with Kubernetes. I mean, now that's just... There's nothing impressive. It's just normal, right? (Kendall Nelson laughs) That's what you do. (laughs) >> I love the demos this morning because they actually were, they were CLI. They were command-line driven, right? >> Kendall Nelson: Yeah. >> I felt at some conferences, you see kind of wizards and GUIs and things like that, but here they-- >> Yeah. >> They blew up the terminal and you were typing. It looked like you were actually typing. >> Kendall Nelson: Oh, yeah. (laughter) >> John Griffith: She was. >> And I actually like the other demo that went on this morning too, where they... The interop demo, right? >> Mm-hmm. >> John Troyer: They spun up 15 different OpenStack clouds-- >> Yeah. >> From different providers on the fly, right there, and then hooked up a CockroachDB, a huge cluster with all of them, right? >> Kendall Nelson: Yeah. >> Can you maybe talk... I just described it, but can you maybe talk a little bit about... That seemed actually super cool and surprising that that would happen that... You could script all that that it could real-time on stage. >> Yeah. I don't know if you, like, noticed, but after our little flub-up (laughs) some of the people during the interop challenge, they would raise their hand like, "Oh, yeah. I'm ready." And then there were some people that didn't raise their hands. Like, I'm sure things went wrong (John Troyer laughs) and with other people, too. So it was kind of interesting to see that it's really happening. There are people succeeding and not quite gettin' there and it definitely is all on the fly, for sure. >> Well, we talked yesterday to CTO Red Hat, and he was talking same thing. No, it's simpler, but you're still making a complicated distributed computing system. >> Kendall Nelson: Oh, definitely. >> Right? There are a lot of... This is not a... There are a lot of moving parts here. >> Kendall Nelson: Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Well, it's funny, 'cause I've been around for a while, right? So I remember what it was like to actually build these things on your own. (laughs) Right? And this is way better, (laughter) so-- >> So it gets your seal of approval? We have reached a point of-- >> Yeah. >> Of usability and maintainability? >> Yeah, and it's just going to keep gettin' better, right? You know, like the interop challenge, the thing that's awesome there is, so they use Ansible, and they talk to 20 different clouds and-- >> Kendall Nelson: Yeah. >> And it works. I mean, it's awesome. It's great. >> Kendall Nelson: Yeah. >> So I guess I'm hearing containers didn't kill OpenStack, as a matter of fact, it might enable the next generation-- >> Kendall Nelson: Yeah. >> Of what's going on, so-- >> John Griffith: Yeah. >> How about serverless? When do we get to see that in here? I actually was lookin' real quick. There's a Functions as a Service session that somebody's doing, but any commentary as to where that fits into OpenStack? >> Go ahead. (laughs) >> So I'm kind of mixed on the serverless stuff, especially in a... In a public cloud, I get it, 'cause then I just call it somebody else's server, right? >> Stu Miniman: Yeah. >> In a private context, it's something that I haven't really quite wrapped my head around yet. I think it's going to happen. I mean, there's no doubt about it. >> Kendall Nelson: Yeah. >> I just don't know exactly what that looks like for me. I'm more interested right now in figuring out how to do awesome storage in things like Kubernetes and stuff like that, and then once we get past that, then I'll start thinking about serverless. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> 'Cause where I guess I see is... At like an IoT edge use case where I'm leveraging a container architecture that's serverless driven, that's where-- >> Yeah. >> It kind of fits, and sometimes that seems to be an extension of the public cloud, rather than... To the edge of the public cloud rather than the data center driven-- >> John Griffith: Yeah. >> But yeah. >> Well, that's kind of interesting, actually, because in that context, I do have some experience with some folks that are deploying that model now, and what they're doing is they're doing a mini OpenStack deployment on the edge-- >> Stu Miniman: Yep. >> And using Cinder and Instance and everything else, and then pushing, and as soon as they push that out to the public, they destroy what they had, and they start over, right? And so it's really... It's actually really interesting. And the economics, depending on the scale and everything else, you start adding it up, it's phenomenal, so... >> Well, you two are both plugged into the user community, the hands-on community. What's the mood of the community this year? Like I said, my first year, everybody seems engaged. I've just run in randomly to people that are spinning up their first clouds right now in 2017. So it seems like there's a lot of people here for the first time excited to get started. What do you think the mood of the user community is like? >> I think it's pretty good. I actually... So at the beginning of the week, I helped to run the OpenStack Upstream Institute, which is teaching people how to contribute to the Upstream Community. And there were a fair amount of users there. There are normally a lot of operators and then just a set of devs, and it seemed like there were a lot more operators and users looking that weren't originally interested in contributing Upstream that are now looking into those things. And at our... We had a presence at DockerCon, actually. We had a booth there, and there were a ton of users that were coming and talking to us, and like, "How can I use OpenStack with containers?" So it's, like, getting more interest with every day and growing rapidly, so... >> That's great. >> Yeah. >> All right. Well, want to thank both of you for joining us. I think this went flawless on the interview. (laughter) And yeah, thanks so much. >> Yeah. >> All these things happen... Live is forgiving, as we say on theCUBE and absolutely going forward. So thanks so much for joining us. >> John Griffith: Thank you. John and I will be back with more coverage here from the OpenStack Summit in Boston. You're watching theCUBE. (funky techno music)

(electronic music) >> Narrator: Live from Boston, Massachusetts it's The Cube covering OpenStack Summit 2017. Brought to you by the OpenStack Foundation, RedHat and additional ecosystem support. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman joined by my cohost John Troyer. We always want to give the community what they want. and I think from the early returns on day one, we brought back Mark Shuttleworth. So Mark, founder of Canonical, had you on yesterday. A lot of feedback from the communities, so welcome back. >> Thank you, great to be here and looking forward to questions from the community and you. >> Yeah, so let's start with, we love at the show you get some of these users up on stage and they get to talk about what they're doing. We were actually, John and I, were catching up with a friend of ours that talked about how a private cloud, the next revision is going to use OpenStack, so really, OpenStack's been a little under the covers in many ways. The composability of OpenStack now, we're going to see pieces of it show up a lot of places. We've heard a lot about the Telco places, maybe talk about some of the emerging areas, enterprise customers, that you find for Ubuntu and OpenStack specifically? >> Sure. Well it seems as if every industry has a different name for the same phenomenon, right. So, for some it's "digital", for other's it's essentially a transformation of some aspect of what they're doing. The Telcos call it NFV, in media you have OTT as a sort of emerging threat and the response, in every case, is really to empower developers. That's why it's such a fun time to be a software developer, because the established guys realize that if they aren't already competing with Silicon Valley, they're going to be competing with Silicon Valley. So in each industry there's a sort of challenges or labels that they give this process of kind of unleashing developers and it's fun for us, because we get to be part of that in many cases. I think the big drivers under the hood, other than the operational and economic dynamics of cloudification, I think the really big changes are going to be machine learning, which seems to be moving very quickly into every industry. Retailers are using it for predictive analytics on what to put in store or what to recommend online. It just has this huge effect on almost any business when you figure out how to use your data in that way. All of that is developer driven, all of that needs this kind of underlying infrastructure to power it and it's kind of relevant to every industry. For us media is a key prospect, you know that we've done very, very well in Telco. Media is now a sort-of critical focus. Companies like Bloomberg for example us Ubuntu as an elastic platform for agility for the developers. They're a pretty astonishing operation; media company, but very tech-centric, very tech-savvy. I don't know if you've had them on the show. In retail, Ebay, PayPal it's kind of a crossover finance. They're all using Ubuntu in that sort of way. They may now see the major financials who are looking at the intersection of machine learning and transactions systems effectively as the driver for that kind of change. >> Stu: So in our last interview we talked about are companies making money in OpenStack and your answer, resoundingly, was yes. >> Mark: For us, certainly, yeah. >> One of the things we always look at is kind of the open source model itself. I was at DockerCon a few weeks ago, it's like everybody's using Docker. How do they make money? The question I get from a number of people in the community is, everybody I talk to knows Ubuntu, uses Ubuntu, when do they transition to paying for some of the products? >> Well so one of our key tenants is that we want to put no friction in front of developers. So many of the people that you'll meet here or that you'll meet at other developer-centric summits, they're developer-oriented. They're creatives, effectively. So our products, our commercial products aren't really designed to tax developers effectively. What we want is developers to have the latest and greatest platforms, to have that absolutely free, to be able to have confidence in the fact that it can go into production. When applications get into production, a whole different set of people get involved. For example the security guys will say, does this comply with FIPS security? And that's a commercial capability that customers get from Canonical if they wanted so we're now getting a set of security certifications that enable people to take apps on Ubuntu into production inside defense industries or other high security industries. Similarly if you look at the support life cycle, our standard public free support maintenance window is five years, which is a long time, but for certain applications it turns out the app needs to be in production for 10 years and again that's a driver for a different set of people. Not the developers, but for compilers and system administration operation types to engage with Canonical commercially. Sometimes we would walk through the building and the developers love us as everything's free and then the ops guys love us because we will support them for longer than we would support the developers. >> Can we talk about Open Source as a component of business models in general maybe, and how you would like to see the ecosystem growing, and even Canonical's business model. In the course of the last decade in the industry itself, right, a lot of people sniping at each other; "Well, you know open core is the way to go, open source is not a business model" there's a lot of yelling. You've been around, you know what works. How do you a set of healthy companies that use open source develop in our ecosystem? >> So this is a really, really interesting topic and I'll start at the high end. If you think of the Googles, and the Facebooks, and the Amazons, and the Microsofts, and the Oracles, I think for them open source is now a weapon. It's a way to commoditize something that somebody else attaches value to and in the game of love and war, or Go, or chess, or however you want to think of it, between those giants open source very much has become a kind of root to market in order to establish standards for the next wave. Right now in machine learning for example we see all of these major guys pushing stuff out as open source. People wouldn't really ask "what's the business model" there 'cause they understand that this is these huge organizations essentially trying to establish standards for the next wave through open source. Okay, so that's one approach. On the startup side it's a lot more challenging and there I think we need to do two things. So right now I would say, if you're a single app startup it's very difficult with open source. If you've got a brilliant idea for a database, if you've got a brilliant idea for a messaging system, it's very, very difficult to do that with open source and I think you've seen the consequences of that over the years. That's actually not a great result for us in open source. At the end of the day, what drives brilliant folks to invest 20 hours a day for three years of their life to create something new, part of it is the sense they'll get a return on that and so, actually, we want that innovation. Not just from the Googles, and the Oracles, and the Microsofts, but we want innovation from real startups in open source. So one of the things I'd like to see is that I'd like to see the open source community being more generous of spirit to the startups who are doing that. That's not Canonical, particularly, but it is the Dockers of the world, it is the RethinkDBs, as a recent example. Those are great guys who had really good ideas and we should caution open source folks when they basically piss on the parade of the startup. It's a very short-sighted approach. The other thing that I do need to do is we need to figure out the monetization strategy. Selling software the old way is really terrible. There's a lot of friction associated with it. So one of the things that I'm passionate about is hacking Ubuntu to enable startups to innovate as open source if they want to, but then deliver their software to the enterprise market. Everywhere where you can find Ubuntu, and you know now that's everywhere right? Every Global 2000 company is running Ubuntu. Whether we can call them a customer or not is another question. But how can we enable all those innovators and startups to deliver their stuff to all of those companies and make money doing it? That's really good for those companies, and it's really good for the startups, and that's something I'm very passionate about. >> We've seen such a big transformation. I mean, the era of the shrink wrapped software is gone. An era that I want to get your long term perspective on is, when it comes to internet security. Back to your first company, we had Edward Snowden and the keynote this morning talking about security, and he bashed the public cloud guys and said "We need private cloud, and you need to control a lot more there" any comments on his stuff, the public/private era and internet security in general today? Are we safer today than we were back in '99? >> We certainly are safer in part because of Edward Snowden. Awareness is the only way to start the process of getting stuff better. I don't think it's simplistically that you can bash the public clouds. For example Google does incredible work around security and there's a huge amount of stuff in the Linux stack today around security specifically that we have Google to thank for. Amazon and others are also starting to invest in those areas. So I think the really interesting question is, how do we make security easy in the field and still make it meaningful? That's something we can have a big impact on because security when you touch it it can often feel like friction. So for example we use AppArmor. Now AppArmor is a more modern of the SC Linux ideas that is just super easy to use which means people don't even know that they're using it. Every copy of Ubuntu out there is actually effectively as secure as if you've turned on SC Linux, but administrators don't ever have to worry about that because the way AppArmor works is designed to be really, really easy to just integrate and that allows each piece of the ecosystem, the upstreams, the developers, the end users to essentially upgrade their security without really have to think about that as a budget item or a work ticket item, or something that's friction. >> Mark, any conversations on the show surprise you? Excite you? There's always such a great collection of some really smart and engaged people at this show. I'm curious what your experience has been so far. >> Sure. I think it's interesting. Open Stack moved so quickly from idea to superstar. I guess it's like a child prodigy, you know, a child TV star. The late teens can be a little rocky, right? (Mark laughs) I think it will emerge from all of that as quite a thoughtful community. There were a ton of people who came to these shows who were just stuffed, effectively, there by corporates who just wanted to do something in cloud. Now I think the conversation is much more measured. You've got folks here who really want these pieces to fit together and be useful. Our particular focus is the consumption of OpenStack in a way that is really economically impactful for enterprises. But the people who I see continuing to make meaningful contributions here are people who really want something to work. Whether that's networking, or storage, or compute, or operations as in our case but they're the folks who care about that infrastructure really working rather than the flash in the pan types and I think that's a good transition for the community to be making. >> Can you say a little more about the future of OpenStack and the direction you see the community going. I don't know. If you had a magic wand and you look forward a couple of years. We talked a lot about operability and maintainability, upgradeability, ease of use. That seems to be one of the places that you're trying to drive the ecosystem. >> One of the things that I think the community is starting to realize is that if you try to please everybody, you'll end up with something nobody can really relate to. I think if you take the mission of OpenStack as to say, look, open source is going to do lots of complicated things but if we can essentially just deliver virtualized infrastructure in a super automated way so that nobody has to think about it, the virtual machines, virtual disks, virtual networks on demand. That's an awesome contribution to the innovation stack. There are a ton of other super shiny things that could happen on any given culture and ODS but if we just get that piece right, we've made a huge contribution and I think for a while OpenStack was trying to do everything for everybody. Lots of reasons why that might be the case but now I think there's a stronger sense of "This is the mission" and it will deliver on that mission, I have great confidence. It was contrarian then to say we shouldn't be doing everything, it's contrarian now to say "actually, we're fine". We're learning what we need to be. >> The ebb and flows of this community have been really interesting. NASA helped start it. NASA went to Amazon, NASA went back to OpenStack. >> Think about the economics of cars, right. It's kind of incredible that I can sit outside the building and pull up the app, and I have a car. It's also quite nice to own a car. People do both. The economics of ownership and the economics of renting, they're pretty well understood and most institutions or most people can figure out that sometimes they'll do a bit of either. What we have to do is, at the moment we have a situation where if you want to own your infrastructure the operations are unpredictable. Whereas if you rent it it's super predictable. If we can just put predictability of price and performance into OpenStack, which is, for example what the manage services, what BootStack does. Also what JUJU and MAAS do. They allow you to say, I can do that. I can do that quickly, and I don't have to go and open a textbook to do that or hire 50 people to do it. That essentially allows people now to make the choice between owning and renting in a very natural way, and I think once people understand that that's what this is all about it'll give them a sense of confidence again. >> Curious your viewpoint on the future of jobs in tech. We talked a little bit before about autonomous vehicles. It has the opportunity to be a great boon from a technology standpoint but could hollow out this massive amount of jobs globally. Is technology an enabler of some of these things? Do we race with the machines? We interviewed Erik Brynjolfsson and Andy McAfee from the MIT Sloan School. Did you personally have some thoughts on that? In places where Canonical looks about our future workforce, do we end up with "coding becomes the new blue collar job"? >> I don't know if I can speak to a single career but I think the simple fact is there's nothing magical about the brain. The brain is a mesh network competing flows and it makes decisions, and I think we will simulate that pretty soon and we'll suddenly realize there's nothing magical about the brain but there is something magical about humans and so, what is a job? A job is kind of how we figure out what we want to do most of the day and how we want to define ourselves in some sense. That's never going to go away. I think it's highly likely that humans are obsolete as decision makers and surprisingly soon. Simply because there's nothing magic about the brain and we'll build bigger and better brains for any kind of decision you can imagine. But the art of being human? That's kind of magical, and humans will find a way to evolve into that time. I'm not too worried about it. >> Okay. Last thing I want to ask is, what's exciting you these days? We've talked about space exploration a few times. Happy to comment on it. I mean, the last 12 months has been amazing to watch for those of us. I grew up studying engineering. You always look up to the stars. What's exciting you these days? >> Well the commercialization of space, the commercial access to space is just fantastic to see, sure, really dawning and credit to the Bezoses and the Musks who are kind of shaking up the status quo in those industries. We will be amongst the stars. I have no doubt about it. It will be part of the human experience. For me personally, I expect I'll go back to space and do something interesting there. It'll get easier and easier and so I can pack my walking stick and go to the moon, maybe. But right now from a love of technology and business point of view, IoT is such rich pickings. You can't swing a cat but find something that can be improved in a very physical way. It's great to see that intersection of entrepreneurship and tinkering suddenly come alive again. You don't have to be a giant institution to go and compete with the giant institutions that are driving the giant clouds. You just have to be able to spot a business opportunity in real life around you and how the right piece of software in the right place with the right data can suddenly make things better and so it's just delicious the sort of things people are doing. Ubuntu again is a great platform for innovating around that. It's just great fun for me to see really smart people who three years ago would say, do I really want to go work at a giant organization in Silicon Valley? Or can I have fun with something for a while that's really mine and whether that's worth 12 bucks or 12 billion who knows? But it just feels fun and I'm enjoying that very much, seeing people find interesting things to do at the edge. >> Mark Shuttleworth, appreciate being able to dig into a lot more topics with you today and we'll be right back with lots more coverage here from OpenStack 2017 in Boston. You're watching the cube. (electronic music)

>> Narrator: Live from Boston, Massachusetts. It's the Cube. Covering OpenStack Summit 2017. Brought to you by the OpenStack Foundation, Red Hat an additional ecosystem is support. >> Welcome back to the Cube. I'm Stu Miniman joined by my cohost John Troyer. Happy to welcome to the program two first-time guests. We have Anne McCormick who is a technical leader with Cisco. And we also have Sandhya Dasu who is a OpenStack engineer with Cisco. Thank you both for joining us. >> Sandhya: Thank you. >> Anne: Thank you. >> So Anne let's start with you, tell us just a little bit about your role at Cisco and what you're involved with when it comes to OpenStack. >> Absolutely, I've been at Cisco for 11 years. I have been working on OpenStack for about two-and-a-half now. It's been a blast, I've been to six different summits. I'm having a great time. My role at Cisco is I work under the Metacloud acquisition which is basically a managed, on-prem Cloud solution. And what my role is, is to bring Cisco technology into those deployments, so basically bringing the power of Cisco networking into OpenStack. >> Great so just to clarify, you weren't part of the Metacloud, you were part of Cisco. >> Anne: Yes. >> And you're working with that team who we know. We actually interviewed them back before the acquisition. Great to see you. Sandhya, tell us a little about your role, what you do at Cisco and with OpenStack. >> Sure, I have been with OpenStack the last three years. And Cisco about the same time as Anne, about 11 years. Worked in different routing technologies. But in OpenStack I'm responsible for the Neutron ML2 mechanism driver for Cisco UCS managers. So I've been having a great time in the OpenStack community. Developing in Neutron, giving upstreaming code and stuff like that, yeah. >> We wanted to talk about women of OpenStack but also the Women of OpenStack organization. Can you talk a little bit about what that group is here in the OpenStack community and how you got involved? >> Absolutely, Women of OpenStack is fantastic. It's something I discovered at my very first summit in Paris. I was a little leery going in 'cause I wasn't sure what the attitude would be, if it's us versus them kind of thing, that's definitely not what I'm looking for. But what I found was an extremely inclusive and encouraging community of women and men. It basically addresses the need for more women in technology and tries to make the community a more welcoming place and I think it takes both men and women to do that. And I think their charter is fantastic. They have really great events. >> Yeah, so I have been involved with Women in OpenStack also. Like Anne said, very inclusive community. I have been able to be at different levels of involvement, at different times based on the other work that I'm doing. But I also believe that just showing up and doing your work everyday is also setting a good example for everybody else to feel welcome. >> Great could you share a little bit, maybe start with Anne. The activities going on at the show. We know, like, just down the road from us here there's the Women in OpenStack lounge. I believe there's a lunch you had. What does it encompass at one of the summits? >> Yes, that's fairly typical that they have a lounge area. Today they had a working session during lunch. To kind of go over different things and discussion points. Also yesterday there was a speed mentoring session that I was a part of, it was fantastic. It was my first time doing that but I really enjoyed it. And they have ongoing mentoring for six month sessions which I'm also starting to get involved with. And I know I'm missing one, but there's just so many activities that they do, it's great. >> Sandhya? >> So I help out mostly with people trying to put their first code out for review. And I think that seems a bit daunting in the beginning because this is a very big community. You get a lot of code reviews. From lots of different people, how do you handle all the feedback? So I help out with people with their first upstreaming goal. Once they enter OpenStack. >> So I mean, tech has some diversity challenges, right. We, it's well-known, many communities in the technical realm, right? So the OpenStack community being an open source community. Comes out of a particular set of codes of conduct and expectations and participation. What have your experiences been working in the OpenStack community over the years? Does it feel, is it a, is it a welcoming egalitarian community? I mean, the Code of Conduct, last week we just had, there were some issues in the Kubernetes community which were swiftly addressed. I think the people's awareness actually is much higher than it was even say five years ago, let alone 10 or 20. But how have your experiences been working in OpenStack as a diverse and supportive community? >> I've found that my experience in the OpenStack community has been extremely positive. So I find that, I mean, before the open source, before I got into open source I did work with smart engineers but a comparatively smaller number. But now you get to interact with a whole, large number of really smart people and I think you should tap into that portion of your experience more than anything else. So the first time, I mean, I always found that I was happy with the code that I put out for review. But after making all the changes that I got as review comments, I was really proud of the output. So I think there are lots of positives in this environment. You need to make use of that, focus on that. And in terms of the Code of Conduct. I have only had very positive experiences here. >> And I find the community to be equally welcoming. When I walk into one of these big rooms with a predominantly male population I don't go in thinking I'm a female minority, I go in thinking I'm an engineer and this is my tribe, you know? So I think it's great. >> Alright, anything in particular that Sandhya was talking about. You know, setting an example as an engineer and as a female engineer. Anne what has your experience been? >> It's interesting, when I first started out in engineering. I got a scholarship to an engineering school, that was my first, when I started off on the road. And I remember being so proud and going up to receive this scholarship. And I heard somebody next to me say, "Oh what a waste, they're giving it to a girl." And it's funny because it had never until that point occurred to me that there might be any kind of perception like that. So my first knee-jerk reaction was, "Well I guess all the dinosaurs didn't go extinct." But after that-- >> John: Good for you. >> (laughs) But I mean I could easily have been bitter about it but instead I kind of saw it as an opportunity to set an example and to lead with my work and with my confidence. And to help to change the perception that gender matters when it comes to what you do for a living 'cause I don't believe it does. >> I studied in engineering. I know when I had group projects and had women on the project it helped, you need diversity of ideas. You need diversity of background and skillset. Sandhya, any comments about just diversity in general that you'd comment from the engineering standpoint? >> I think like Anne mentioned, once in a while you do get, you are conscious of the fact that there are very few other women in the room. But that's really, that should not be hindering your progress in any way. Just focus on being an engineer. And I think after a point everybody starts looking past the gender thing and just look at your work. >> Once you're around the table or you know, working on a shared whiteboard or Google doc, right, the gender falls away, you're working on the project. >> Sandhya: Exactly. >> Anne: Absolutely. >> And the same thing applies to IRC too. It's a very democratic channel. Everyone has an equal voice. And then in the end it turns out to be a meritocracy there. And if you have a good idea people will take it. Otherwise like everybody else, you just have to work on tweaking it. >> The concept of mentoring has come up a couple of times in this conversation already. As people look at the diverse workforce, and diverse workforce in tech. People talk about things like the pipeline problem. But from what I understand and have read, you know, a lot of it is supporting underrepresented groups within their careers and in their career growth right? And so that, a lot of that comes down to setting examples and mentoring. Can you talk a little bit about Women of OpenStack and how you talked about speed mentoring maybe and how, one let's talk about Women of OpenStack and mentoring. And then maybe even how you're doing mentoring in your own personal career at Cisco. >> Absolutely, mentoring is something that I'm kind of new to but it's becoming a passion of mine. As a way to both give back and to help encourage other people but also I get something out of it. I get inspired by the energy that people bring to things and by the enthusiasm. Yesterday at my speed mentoring session, one of the women that I talked to was very, very qualified and very excited about OpenStack. She has a full time job that doesn't involve OpenStack so she was involved in OpenStack on the side, you know, 'cause that's fun (laughs) to do on the side. But basically she was telling me that it was hard for her to break into the community. And she was a little bit shy about handing off her resume and stuff. And I think, I kind of said to her, "You know you're selling yourself short. "You've got a lot of enthusiasm. "And I think companies would be inspired by that. "And want to include you." So it was just kind of a nice way to help inspire people and encourage them. >> Have you done any mentoring yourself? >> Yes so I find that while I'm mentoring someone there's something that I get out of it too, because whenever you talk to a new grad you get this enthusiasm, this burst of enthusiasm. That helps you fuel your own work again. But I have heard lot of people discouraging each other from entering this field because they say it's not set up for their success. But then I think that's a self-possessing processing. So the more of them that there are in this field the better it is for everyone else. So that should not be a reason for not getting into this field. >> Sandhya could you talk to us a little about your upstream contributions, what things you've been proud of and excited about when it comes to OpenStack in general? >> Yeah so I have been active in the Neutron community. Mostly in the ML2 area of Neutron plugins. What I'm working on is the Cisco UCS mechanism driver for the Neutron ML2. What it helps you do is to use the Cisco UCS Manager to set up virtual networks, Neutron virtual networks and configure SR-IOV ports. And basically use the entire UCS ecosystem in context of OpenStack. >> Great, Anne you've been to six of these summits. Anything as you reflect back, just the maturity of the project, the maturity of the community. Or one of the themes this week has been kind of resetting expectations about what OpenStack is and isn't. What's your take on the community? >> That's interesting. I feel that there was a bit of a bubble perhaps. Maybe a year or so ago with OpenStack. But I don't think, I don't think we have to reset expectations too far. I do think that it's necessary, I don't think it's going anywhere. I think it's evolving and I really do see it as the second wave of the Internet. So we need it and I think it's great. >> Anne, Sandhya, really appreciate you joining, sharing your perspectives. We always love to have the diverse experience and OpenStack actually one of the better shows in making sure we have, you know, smart, energetic, contributing, you know, women participants in the community. We've had a number on, have a few more. So thanks so much for joining us and thanks for all of your contributions in the community. >> Anne: Thank you very much. >> Sandhya: Thank you for having us. >> John and myself, we'll be back with lots more coverage here from the Cube at OpenStack Summit Boston, Massachusetts. Thanks for watching the Cube. (upbeat techno music)