(upbeat music) >> Hey, everyone, welcome back to Las Vegas, "theCube" is on our fourth day of covering AWS re:Invent, live from the Venetian Expo Center. This week has been amazing. We've created a ton of content, as you know, 'cause you've been watching. But, there's been north of 55,000 people here, hundreds of thousands online. We've had amazing conversations across the AWS ecosystem. Lisa Martin, Paul Gillan. Paul, what's your, kind of, take on day four of the conference? It's still highly packed. >> Oh, there's lots of people here. (laughs) >> Yep. Unusual for the final day of a conference. I think Werner Vogels, if I'm pronouncing it right kicked things off today when he talked about asymmetry and how the world is, you know, asymmetric. We build symmetric software, because it's convenient to do so, but asymmetric software actually scales and evolves much better. And I think that that was a conversation starter for a lot of what people are talking about here today, which is how the cloud changes the way we think about building software. >> Absolutely does. >> Our next guest, Holger Mueller, that's one of his key areas of focus. And Holger, welcome, thanks for joining us on the "theCube". >> Thanks for having me. >> What did you take away from the keynote this morning? >> Well, how do you feel on the final day of the marathon, right? We're like 23, 24 miles. Hit the ball yesterday, right? >> We are going strong Holger. And, of course, >> Yeah. >> you guys, we can either talk about business transformation with cloud or the World Cup. >> Or we can do both. >> The World Cup, hands down. World Cup. (Lisa laughs) Germany's out, I'm unbiased now. They just got eliminated. >> Spain is out now. >> What will the U.S. do against Netherlands tomorrow? >> They're going to win. What's your forecast? U.S. will win? >> They're going to win 2 to 1. >> What do you say, 2:1? >> I'm optimistic, but realistic. >> 3? >> I think Netherlands. >> Netherlands will win? >> 2 to nothing. >> Okay, I'll vote for the U.S.. >> Okay, okay >> 3:1 for the U.S.. >> Be optimistic. >> Root for the U.S.. >> Okay, I like that. >> Hope for the best wherever you work. >> Tomorrow you'll see how much soccer experts we are. >> If your prediction was right. (laughs) >> (laughs) Ja, ja. Or yours was right, right, so. Cool, no, but the event, I think the event is great to have 50,000 people. Biggest event of the year again, right? Not yet the 70,000 we had in 2019. But it's great to have the energy. I've never seen the show floor going all the way down like this, right? >> I haven't either. >> I've never seen that. I think it's a record. Often vendors get the space here and they have the keynote area, and the entertainment area, >> Yeah. >> and the food area, and then there's an exposition, right? This is packed. >> It's packed. >> Maybe it'll pay off. >> You don't see the big empty booths that you often see. >> Oh no. >> Exactly, exactly. You know, the white spaces and so on. >> No. >> Right. >> Which is a good thing. >> There's lots of energy, which is great. And today's, of course, the developer day, like you said before, right now Vogels' a rockstar in the developer community, right. Revered visionary on what has been built, right? And he's becoming a little professorial is my feeling, right. He had these moments before too, when it was justifying how AWS moved off the Oracle database about the importance of data warehouses and structures and why DynamoDB is better and so on. But, he had a large part of this too, and this coming right across the keynotes, right? Adam Selipsky talking about Antarctica, right? Scott against almonds and what went wrong. He didn't tell us, by the way, which often the tech winners forget. Scott banked on technology. He had motorized sleds, which failed after three miles. So, that's not the story to tell the technology. Let everything down. Everybody went back to ponies and horses and dogs. >> Maybe goes back to these asynchronous behavior. >> Yeah. >> The way of nature. >> And, yesterday, Swami talking about the bridges, right? The root bridges, right? >> Right. >> So, how could Werner pick up with his video at the beginning. >> Yeah. >> And then talk about space and other things? So I think it's important to educate about event-based architecture, right? And we see this massive transformation. Modern software has to be event based, right? Because, that's how things work and we didn't think like this before. I see this massive transformation in my other research area in other platforms about the HR space, where payrolls are being rebuilt completely. And payroll used to be one of the three peaks of ERP, right? You would size your ERP machine before the cloud to financial close, to run the payroll, and to do an MRP manufacturing run if you're manufacturing. God forbid you run those three at the same time. Your machine wouldn't be able to do that, right? So it was like start the engine, start the boosters, we are running payroll. And now the modern payroll designs like you see from ADP or from Ceridian, they're taking every payroll relevant event. You check in time wise, right? You go overtime, you take a day of vacation and right away they trigger and run the payroll, so it's up to date for you, up to date for you, which, in this economy, is super important, because we have more gig workers, we have more contractors, we have employees who are leaving suddenly, right? The great resignation, which is happening. So, from that perspective, it's the modern way of building software. So it's great to see Werner showing that. The dirty little secrets though is that is more efficient software for the cloud platform vendor too. Takes less resources, gets less committed things, so it's a much more scalable architecture. You can move the events, you can work asynchronously much better. And the biggest showcase, right? What's the biggest transactional showcase for an eventually consistent asynchronous transactional application? I know it's a mouthful, but we at Amazon, AWS, Amazon, right? You buy something on Amazon they tell you it's going to come tomorrow. >> Yep. >> They don't know it's going to come tomorrow by that time, because it's not transactionally consistent, right? We're just making every ERP vendor, who lives in transactional work, having nightmares of course, (Lisa laughs) but for them it's like, yes we have the delivery to promise, a promise to do that, right? But they come back to you and say, "Sorry, we couldn't make it, delivery didn't work and so on. It's going to be a new date. We are out of the product.", right? So these kind of event base asynchronous things are more and more what's going to scale around the world. It's going to be efficient for everybody, it's going to be better customer experience, better employee experience, ultimately better user experience, it's going to be better for the enterprise to build, but we have to learn to build it. So big announcement was to build our environment to build better eventful applications from today. >> Talk about... This is the first re:Invent... Well, actually, I'm sorry, it's the second re:Invent under Adam Selipsky. >> Right. Adam Selipsky, yep. >> But his first year. >> Right >> We're hearing a lot of momentum. What's your takeaway with what he delivered with the direction Amazon is going, their vision? >> Ja, I think compared to the Jassy times, right, we didn't see the hockey stick slide, right? With a number of innovations and releases. That was done in 2019 too, right? So I think it's a more pedestrian pace, which, ultimately, is good for everybody, because it means that when software vendors go slower, they do less width, but more depth. >> Yeah. >> And depth is what customers need. So Amazon's building more on the depth side, which is good news. I also think, and that's not official, right, but Adam Selipsky came from Tableau, right? >> Yeah. So he is a BI analytics guy. So it's no surprise we have three data lake offerings, right? Security data lake, we have a healthcare data lake and we have a supply chain data lake, right? Where all, again, the epigonos mentioned them I was like, "Oh, my god, Amazon's coming to supply chain.", but it's actually data lakes, which is an interesting part. But, I think it's not a surprise that someone who comes heavily out of the analytics BI world, it's off ringside, if I was pitching internally to him maybe I'd do something which he's is familiar with and I think that's what we see in the major announcement of his keynote on Tuesday. >> I mean, speaking of analytics, one of the big announcements early on was Amazon is trying to bridge the gap between Aurora. >> Yep. >> And Redshift. >> Right. >> And setting up for continuous pipelines, continuous integration. >> Right. >> Seems to be a trend that is common to all database players. I mean, Oracle is doing the same thing. SAP is doing the same thing. MariaDB. Do you see the distinction between transactional and analytical databases going away? >> It's coming together, right? Certainly coming together, from that perspective, but there's a fundamental different starting point, right? And with the big idea part, right? The universal database, which does everything for you in one system, whereas the suite of specialized databases, right? Oracle is in the classic Oracle database in the universal database camp. On the other side you have Amazon, which built a database. This is one of the first few Amazon re:Invents. It's my 10th where there was no new database announced. Right? >> No. >> So it was always add another one specially- >> I think they have enough. >> It's a great approach. They have enough, right? So it's a great approach to build something quick, which Amazon is all about. It's not so great when customers want to leverage things. And, ultimately, which I think with Selipsky, AWS is waking up to the enterprise saying, "I have all this different database and what is in them matters to me." >> Yeah. >> "So how can I get this better?" So no surprise between the two most popular database, Aurora and RDS. They're bring together the data with some out of the box parts. I think it's kind of, like, silly when Swami's saying, "Hey, no ETL.". (chuckles) Right? >> Yeah. >> There shouldn't be an ETL from the same vendor, right? There should be data pipes from that perspective anyway. So it looks like, on the overall value proposition database side, AWS is moving closer to the universal database on the Oracle side, right? Because, if you lift, of course, the universal database, under the hood, you see, well, there's different database there, different part there, you do something there, you have to configure stuff, which is also the case but it's one part of it, right, so. >> With that shift, talk about the value that's going to be in it for customers regardless of industry. >> Well, the value for customers is great, because when software vendors, or platform vendors, go in depth, you get more functionality, you get more maturity you get easier ways of setting up the whole things. You get ways of maintaining things. And you, ultimately, get lower TCO to build them, which is super important for enterprise. Because, here, this is the developer cloud, right? Developers love AWS. Developers are scarce, expensive. Might not be want to work for you, right? So developer velocity getting more done with same amount of developers, getting less done, less developers getting more done, is super crucial, super important. So this is all good news for enterprise banking on AWS and then providing them more efficiency, more automation, out of the box. >> Some of your customer conversations this week, talk to us about some of the feedback. What's the common denominator amongst customers right now? >> Customers are excited. First of all, like, first event, again in person, large, right? >> Yeah. >> People can travel, people meet each other, meet in person. They have a good handle around the complexity, which used to be a huge challenge in the past, because people say, "Do I do this?" I know so many CXOs saying, "Yeah, I want to build, say, something in IoT with AWS. The first reference built it like this, the next reference built it completely different. The third one built it completely different again. So now I'm doubting if my team has the skills to build things successfully, because will they be smart enough, like your teams, because there's no repetitiveness and that repetitiveness is going to be very important for AWS to come up with some higher packaging and version numbers.", right? But customers like that message. They like that things are working better together. They're not missing the big announcement, right? One of the traditional things of AWS would be, and they made it even proud, as a system, Jassy was saying, "If we look at the IT spend and we see something which is, like, high margin for us and not served well and we announced something there, right?" So Quick Start, Workspaces, where all liaisons where AWS went after traditional IT spend and had an offering. We haven't had this in 2019, we don't have them in 2020. Last year and didn't have it now. So something is changing on the AWS side. It's a little bit too early to figure out what, but they're not chewing off as many big things as they used in the past. >> Right. >> Yep. >> Did you get the sense that... Keith Townsend, from "The CTO Advisor", was on earlier. >> Yep. >> And he said he's been to many re:Invents, as you have, and he said that he got the sense that this is Amazon's chance to do a victory lap, as he called it. That this is a way for Amazon to reinforce the leadership cloud. >> Ja. >> And really, kind of, establish that nobody can come close to them, nobody can compete with them. >> You don't think that- >> I don't think that's at all... I mean, love Keith, he's a great guy, but I don't think that's the mindset at all, right? So, I mean, Jassy was always saying, "It's still the morning of the day in the cloud.", right? They're far away from being done. They're obsessed over being right. They do more work with the analysts. We think we got something right. And I like the passion, from that perspective. So I think Amazon's far from being complacent and the area, which is the biggest bit, right, the biggest. The only thing where Amazon truly has floundered, always floundered, is the AI space, right? So, 2018, Werner Vogels was doing more technical stuff that "Oh, this is all about linear regression.", right? And Amazon didn't start to put algorithms on silicon, right? And they have a three four trail and they didn't announce anything new here, behind Google who's been doing this for much, much longer than TPU platform, so. >> But they have now. >> They're keen aware. >> Yep. >> They now have three, or they own two of their own hardware platforms for AI. >> Right. >> They support the Intel platform. They seem to be catching up in that area. >> It's very hard to catch up on hardware, right? Because, there's release cycles, right? And just the volume that, just talking about the largest models that we have right now, to do with the language models, and Google is just doing a side note of saying, "Oh, we supported 50 less or 30 less, not little spoken languages, which I've never even heard of, because they're under banked and under supported and here's the language model, right? And I think it's all about little bit the organizational DNA of a company. I'm a strong believer in that. And, you have to remember AWS comes from the retail side, right? >> Yeah. >> Their roll out of data centers follows their retail strategy. Open secret, right? But, the same thing as the scale of the AI is very very different than if you take a look over at Google where it makes sense of the internet, right? The scale right away >> Right. >> is a solution, which is a good solution for some of the DNA of AWS. Also, Microsoft Azure is good. There has no chance to even get off the ship of that at Google, right? And these leaders with Google and it's not getting smaller, right? We didn't hear anything. I mean so much focused on data. Why do they focus so much on data? Because, data is the first step for AI. If AWS was doing a victory lap, data would've been done. They would own data, right? They would have a competitor to BigQuery Omni from the Google side to get data from the different clouds. There's crickets on that topic, right? So I think they know that they're catching up on the AI side, but it's really, really hard. It's not like in software where you can't acquire someone they could acquire in video. >> Not at Core Donovan. >> Might play a game, but that's not a good idea, right? So you can't, there's no shortcuts on the hardware side. As much as I'm a software guy and love software and don't like hardware, it's always a pain, right? There's no shortcuts there and there's nothing, which I think, has a new Artanium instance, of course, certainly, but they're not catching up. The distance is the same, yep. >> One of the things is funny, one of our guests, I think it was Tuesday, it was, it was right after Adam's keynote. >> Sure. >> Said that Adam Selipsky stood up on stage and talked about data for 52 minutes. >> Yeah. Right. >> It was timed, 52 minutes. >> Right. >> Huge emphasis on that. One of the things that Adam said to John Furrier when they were able to sit down >> Yeah >> a week or so ago at an event preview, was that CIOs and CEOs are not coming to Adam to talk about technology. They want to talk about transformation. They want to talk about business transformation. >> Sure, yes, yes. >> Talk to me in our last couple of minutes about what CEOs and CIOs are coming to you saying, "Holger, help us figure this out. We have to transform the business." >> Right. So we advise, I'm going quote our friends at Gartner, once the type A company. So we'll use technology aggressively, right? So take everything in the audience with a grain of salt, followers are the laggards, and so on. So for them, it's really the cusp of doing AI, right? Getting that data together. It has to be in the cloud. We live in the air of infinite computing. The cloud makes computing infinite, both from a storage, from a compute perspective, from an AI perspective, and then define new business models and create new best practices on top of that. Because, in the past, everything was fine out on premise, right? We talked about the (indistinct) size. Now in the cloud, it's just the business model to say, "Do I want to have a little more AI? Do I want a to run a little more? Will it give me the insight in the business?". So, that's the transformation that is happening, really. So, bringing your data together, this live conversation data, but not for bringing the data together. There's often the big win for the business for the first time to see the data. AWS is banking on that. The supply chain product, as an example. So many disparate systems, bring them them together. Big win for the business. But, the win for the business, ultimately, is when you change the paradigm from the user showing up to do something, to software doing stuff for us, right? >> Right. >> We have too much in this operator paradigm. If the user doesn't show up, doesn't find the click, doesn't find where to go, nothing happens. It can't be done in the 21st century, right? Software has to look over your shoulder. >> Good point. >> Understand one for you, autonomous self-driving systems. That's what CXOs, who're future looking, will be talked to come to AWS and all the other cloud vendors. >> Got it, last question for you. We're making a sizzle reel on Instagram. >> Yeah. >> If you had, like, a phrase, like, or a 30 second pitch that would describe re:Invent 2022 in the direction the company's going. What would that elevator pitch say? >> 30 second pitch? >> Yeah. >> All right, just timing. AWS is doing well. It's providing more depth, less breadth. Making things work together. It's catching up in some areas, has some interesting offerings, like the healthcare offering, the security data lake offering, which might change some things in the industry. It's staying the course and it's going strong. >> Ah, beautifully said, Holger. Thank you so much for joining Paul and me. >> Might have been too short. I don't know. (laughs) >> About 10 seconds left over. >> It was perfect, absolutely perfect. >> Thanks for having me. >> Perfect sizzle reel. >> Appreciate it. >> We appreciate your insights, what you're seeing this week, and the direction the company is going. We can't wait to see what happens in the next year. And, yeah. >> Thanks for having me. >> And of course, we've been on so many times. We know we're going to have you back. (laughs) >> Looking forward to it, thank you. >> All right, for Holger Mueller and Paul Gillan, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching "theCube", the leader in live enterprise and emerging tech coverage. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> We are back, approaching the finish line here at Supercomputing 22, our last interview of the day, our last interview of the show. And I have to say Dave Nicholson, my co-host, My name is Paul Gillin. I've been attending trade shows for 40 years Dave, I've never been to one like this. The type of people who are here, the type of problems they're solving, what they talk about, the trade shows are typically, they're so speeds and feeds. They're so financial, they're so ROI, they all sound the same after a while. This is truly a different event. Do you get that sense? >> A hundred percent. Now, I've been attending trade shows for 10 years since I was 19, in other words, so I don't have necessarily your depth. No, but seriously, Paul, totally, completely, completely different than any other conference. First of all, there's the absolute allure of looking at the latest and greatest, coolest stuff. I mean, when you have NASA lecturing on things when you have Lawrence Livermore Labs that we're going to be talking to here in a second it's a completely different story. You have all of the academics you have students who are in competition and also interviewing with organizations. It's phenomenal. I've had chills a lot this week. >> And I guess our last two guests sort of represent that cross section. Armando Acosta, director of HPC Solutions, High Performance Solutions at Dell. And Matt Leininger, who is the HPC Strategist at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory. Now, there is perhaps, I don't know you can correct me on this, but perhaps no institution in the world that uses more computing cycles than Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory and is always on the leading edge of what's going on in Supercomputing. And so we want to talk to both of you about that. Thank you. Thank you for joining us today. >> Sure, glad to be here. >> For having us. >> Let's start with you, Armando. Well, let's talk about the juxtaposition of the two of you. I would not have thought of LLNL as being a Dell reference account in the past. Tell us about the background of your relationship and what you're providing to the laboratory. >> Yeah, so we're really excited to be working with Lawrence Livermore, working with Matt. But actually this process started about two years ago. So we started looking at essentially what was coming down the pipeline. You know, what were the customer requirements. What did we need in order to make Matt successful. And so the beauty of this project is that we've been talking about this for two years, and now it's finally coming to fruition. And now we're actually delivering systems and delivering racks of systems. But what I really appreciate is Matt coming to us, us working together for two years and really trying to understand what are the requirements, what's the schedule, what do we need to hit in order to make them successful >> At Lawrence Livermore, what drives your computing requirements I guess? You're working on some very, very big problems but a lot of very complex problems. How do you decide what you need to procure to address them? >> Well, that's a difficult challenge. I mean, our mission is a national security mission dealing with making sure that we do our part to provide the high performance computing capabilities to the US Department of Energy's National Nuclear Security Administration. We do that through the Advanced Simulation computing program. Its goal is to provide that computing power to make sure that the US nuclear rep of the stockpile is safe, secure, and effective. So how we go about doing that? There's a lot of work involved. We have multiple platform lines that we accomplish that goal with. One of them is the advanced technology systems. Those are the ones you've heard about a lot, they're pushing towards exit scale, the GPU technologies incorporated into those. We also have a second line, a platform line, called the Commodity Technology Systems. That's where right now we're partnering with Dell on the latest generation of those. Those systems are a little more conservative, they're right now CPU only driven but they're also intended to be the everyday work horses. So those are the first systems our users get on. It's very easy for them to get their applications up and running. They're the first things they use usually on a day to day basis. They run a lot of small to medium size jobs that you need to do to figure out how to most effectively use what workloads you need to move to the even larger systems to accomplish our mission goals. >> The workhorses. >> Yeah. >> What have you seen here these last few days of the show, what excites you? What are the most interesting things you've seen? >> There's all kinds of things that are interesting. Probably most interesting ones I can't talk about in public, unfortunately, 'cause of NDA agreements, of course. But it's always exciting to be here at Supercomputing. It's always exciting to see the products that we've been working with industry and co-designing with them on for, you know, several years before the public actually sees them. That's always an exciting part of the conference as well specifically with CTS-2, it's exciting. As was mentioned before, I've been working with Dell for nearly two years on this, but the systems first started being delivered this past August. And so we're just taking the initial deliveries of those. We've deployed, you know, roughly about 1600 nodes now but that'll ramp up to over 6,000 nodes over the next three or four months. >> So how does this work intersect with Sandia and Los Alamos? Explain to us the relationship there. >> Right, so those three laboratories are the laboratories under the National Nuclear Security Administration. We partner together on CTS. So the architectures, as you were asking, how do we define these things, it's the labs coming together. Those three laboratories we define what we need for that architecture. We have a joint procurement that is run out of Livermore but then the systems are deployed at all three laboratories. And then they serve the programs that I mentioned for each laboratory as well. >> I've worked in this space for a very long time you know I've worked with agencies where the closest I got to anything they were actually doing was the sort of guest suite outside the secure area. And sometimes there are challenges when you're communicating, it's like you have a partner like Dell who has all of these things to offer, all of these ideas. You have requirements, but maybe you can't share 100% of what you need to do. How do you navigate that? Who makes the decision about what can be revealed in these conversations? You talk about NDA in terms of what's been shared with you, you may be limited in terms of what you can share with vendors. Does that cause inefficiency? >> To some degree. I mean, we do a good job within the NSA of understanding what our applications need and then mapping that to technical requirements that we can talk about with vendors. We also have kind of in between that we've done this for many years. A recent example is of course with the exit scale computing program and some things it's doing creating proxy apps or mini apps that are smaller versions of some of the things that we are important to us. Some application areas are important to us, hydrodynamics, material science, things like that. And so we can collaborate with vendors on those proxy apps to co-design systems and tweak the architectures. In fact, we've done a little bit that with CTS-2, not as much in CTS as maybe in the ATS platforms but that kind of general idea of how we collaborate through these proxy applications is something we've used across platforms. >> Now is Dell one of your co-design partners? >> In CTS-2 absolutely, yep. >> And how, what aspects of CTS-2 are you working on with Dell? >> Well, the architecture itself was the first, you know thing we worked with them on, we had a procurement come out, you know they bid an architecture on that. We had worked with them, you know but previously on our requirements, understanding what our requirements are. But that architecture today is based on the fourth generation Intel Xeon that you've heard a lot about at the conference. We are one of the first customers to get those systems in. All the systems are interconnected together with the Cornell Network's Omni-Path Network that we've used before and are very excited about as well. And we build up from there. The systems get integrated in by the operations teams at the laboratory. They get integrated into our production computing environment. Dell is really responsible, you know for designing these systems and delivering to the laboratories. The laboratories then work with Dell. We have a software stack that we provide on top of that called TOSS, for Tri-Lab Operating System. It's based on Redhead Enterprise Linux. But the goal there is that it allows us, a common user environment, a common simulation environment across not only CTS-2, but maybe older systems we have and even the larger systems that we'll be deploying as well. So from a user perspective they see a common user interface, a common environment across all the different platforms that they use at Livermore and the other laboratories. >> And Armando, what does Dell get out of the co-design arrangement with the lab? >> Well, we get to make sure that they're successful. But the other big thing that we want to do, is typically when you think about Dell and HPC, a lot of people don't make that connection together. And so what we're trying to do is make sure that, you know they know that, hey, whether you're a work group customer at the smallest end or a super computer customer at the highest end, Dell wants to make sure that we have the right setup portfolio to match any needs across this. But what we were really excited about this, this is kind of our, you know big CTS-2 first thing we've done together. And so, you know, hopefully this has been successful. We've made Matt happy and we look forward to the future what we can do with bigger and bigger things. >> So will the labs be okay with Dell coming up with a marketing campaign that said something like, "We can't confirm that alien technology is being reverse engineered." >> Yeah, that would fly. >> I mean that would be right, right? And I have to ask you the question directly and the way you can answer it is by smiling like you're thinking, what a stupid question. Are you reverse engineering alien technology at the labs? >> Yeah, you'd have to suck the PR office. >> Okay, okay. (all laughing) >> Good answer. >> No, but it is fascinating because to a degree it's like you could say, yeah, we're working together but if you really want to dig into it, it's like, "Well I kind of can't tell you exactly how some of this stuff is." Do you consider anything that you do from a technology perspective, not what you're doing with it, but the actual stack, do you try to design proprietary things into the stack or do you say, "No, no, no, we're going to go with standards and then what we do with it is proprietary and secret."? >> Yeah, it's more the latter. >> Is the latter? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you're not going to try to reverse engineer the industry? >> No, no. We want the solutions that we develop to enhance the industry to be able to apply to a broader market so that we can, you know, gain from the volume of that market, the lower cost that they would enable, right? If we go off and develop more and more customized solutions that can be extraordinarily expensive. And so we we're really looking to leverage the wider market, but do what we can to influence that, to develop key technologies that we and others need that can enable us in the high forms computing space. >> We were talking with Satish Iyer from Dell earlier about validated designs, Dell's reference designs for for pharma and for manufacturing, in HPC are you seeing that HPC, Armando, and is coming together traditionally and more of an academic research discipline beginning to come together with commercial applications? And are these two markets beginning to blend? >> Yeah, I mean so here's what's happening, is you have this convergence of HPC, AI and data analytics. And so when you have that combination of those three workloads they're applicable across many vertical markets, right? Whether it's financial services, whether it's life science, government and research. But what's interesting, and Matt won't brag about, but a lot of stuff that happens in the DoE labs trickles down to the enterprise space, trickles down to the commercial space because these guys know how to do it at scale, they know how to do it efficiently and they know how to hit the mark. And so a lot of customers say, "Hey we want what CTS-2 does," right? And so it's very interesting. The way I love it is their process the way they do the RFP process. Matt talked about the benchmarks and helping us understand, hey here's kind of the mark you have to hit. And then at the same time, you know if we make them successful then obviously it's better for all of us, right? You know, I want to secure nuclear stock pile so I hope everybody else does as well. >> The software stack you mentioned, I think Tia? >> TOSS. >> TOSS. >> Yeah. >> How did that come about? Why did you feel the need to develop your own software stack? >> It originated back, you know, even 20 years ago when we first started building Linux clusters when that was a crazy idea. Livermore and other laboratories were really the first to start doing that and then push them to larger and larger scales. And it was key to have Linux running on that at the time. And so we had the. >> So 20 years ago you knew you wanted to run on Linux? >> Was 20 years ago, yeah, yeah. And we started doing that but we needed a way to have a version of Linux that we could partner with someone on that would do, you know, the support, you know, just like you get from an EoS vendor, right? Security support and other things. But then layer on top of that, all the HPC stuff you need either to run the system, to set up the system, to support our user base. And that evolved into to TOSS which is the Tri-Lab Operating System. Now it's based on the latest version of Redhead Enterprise Linux, as I mentioned before, with all the other HPC magic, so to speak and all that HPC magic is open source things. It's not stuff, it may be things that we develop but it's nothing closed source. So all that's there we run it across all these different environments as I mentioned before. And it really originated back in the early days of, you know, Beowulf clusters, Linux clusters, as just needing something that we can use to run on multiple systems and start creating that common environment at Livermore and then eventually the other laboratories. >> How is a company like Dell, able to benefit from the open source work that's coming out of the labs? >> Well, when you look at the open source, I mean open source is good for everybody, right? Because if you make a open source tool available then people start essentially using that tool. And so if we can make that open source tool more robust and get more people using it, it gets more enterprise ready. And so with that, you know, we're all about open source we're all about standards and really about raising all boats 'cause that's what open source is all about. >> And with that, we are out of time. This is our 28th interview of SC22 and you're taking us out on a high note. Armando Acosta, director of HPC Solutions at Dell. Matt Leininger, HPC Strategist, Lawrence Livermore National Laboratories. Great discussion. Hopefully it was a good show for you. Fascinating show for us and thanks for being with us today. >> Thank you very much. >> Thank you for having us >> Dave it's been a pleasure. >> Absolutely. >> Hope we'll be back next year. >> Can't believe, went by fast. Absolutely at SC23. >> We hope you'll be back next year. This is Paul Gillin. That's a wrap, with Dave Nicholson for theCUBE. See here in next time. (soft upbear music)

(upbeat music) (logo swooshing) >> Good morning and welcome back to Dallas, ladies and gentlemen, we are here with theCUBE Live from Supercomputing 2022. David, my cohost, how are you doing? Exciting, day two, feeling good? >> Very exciting. Ready to start off the day. >> Very excited. We have two fascinating guests joining us to kick us off. Please welcome Pete and Armando. Gentlemen, thank you for being here with us. >> Thank you for having us. >> Thank you for having us. >> I'm excited that you're starting off the day because we've been hearing a lot of rumors about Ethernet as the fabric for HPC, but we really haven't done a deep dive yet during the show. You all seem all in on Ethernet. Tell us about that. Armando, why don't you start? >> Yeah, I mean, when you look at Ethernet, customers are asking for flexibility and choice. So when you look at HPC, InfiniBand's always been around, right? But when you look at where Ethernet's coming in, it's really our commercial in their enterprise customers. And not everybody wants to be in the top 500, what they want to do is improve their job time and improve their latency over the network. And when you look at Ethernet, you kind of look at the sweet spot between 8, 12, 16, 32 nodes, that's a perfect fit for Ethernet in that space and those types of jobs. >> I love that. Pete, you want to elaborate? >> Yeah, sure. I mean, I think one of the biggest things you find with Ethernet for HPC is that, if you look at where the different technologies have gone over time, you've had old technologies like, ATM, Sonic, Fifty, and pretty much everything is now kind of converged toward Ethernet. I mean, there's still some technologies such as InfiniBand, Omni-Path, that are out there. But basically, they're single source at this point. So what you see is that there is a huge ecosystem behind Ethernet. And you see that also the fact that Ethernet is used in the rest of the enterprise, is used in the cloud data centers, that is very easy to integrate HPC based systems into those systems. So as you move HPC out of academia into enterprise, into cloud service providers, it's much easier to integrate it with the same technology you're already using in those data centers, in those networks. >> So what's the state of the art for Ethernet right now? What's the leading edge? what's shipping now and what's in the near future? You're with Broadcom, you guys designed this stuff. >> Pete: Yeah. >> Savannah: Right. >> Yeah, so leading edge right now, got a couple things-- >> Savannah: We love good stage prop here on the theCUBE. >> Yeah, so this is Tomahawk 4. So this is what is in production, it's shipping in large data centers worldwide. We started sampling this in 2019, started going into data centers in 2020. And this is 25.6 terabytes per second. >> David: Okay. >> Which matches any other technology out there. Like if you look at say, InfinBand, highest they have right now that's just starting to get into production is 25.6 T. So state of the art right now is what we introduced, We announced this in August, This is Tomahawk 5, so this is 51.2 terabytes per second. So double the bandwidth, out of any other technology that's out there. And the important thing about networking technology is when you double the bandwidth, you don't just double the efficiency, actually, winds up being a factor of six efficiency. >> Savannah: Wow. >> 'Cause if you want, I can go into that, but... >> Why not? >> Well, what I want to know, please tell me that in your labs, you have a poster on the wall that says T five, with some like Terminator kind of character. (all laughs) 'Cause that would be cool. If it's not true, just don't say anything. I'll just... >> Pete: This can actually shift into a terminator. >> Well, so this is from a switching perspective. >> Yeah. >> When we talk about the end nodes, when we talk about creating a fabric, what's the latest in terms of, well, the nicks that are going in there, what speed are we talking about today? >> So as far as 30 speeds, it tends to be 50 gigabits per second. >> David: Okay. >> Moving to a hundred gig PAM-4. >> David: Okay. >> And we do see a lot of nicks in the 200 gig Ethernet port speed. So that would be four lanes, 50 gig. But we do see that advancing to 400 gig fairly soon, 800 gig in the future. But say state of the art right now, we're seeing for the end node tends to be 200 gig E based on 50 gig PAM-4. >> Wow. >> Yeah, that's crazy. >> Yeah, that is great. My mind is act actively blown. I want to circle back to something that you brought up a second ago, which I think is really astute. When you talked about HPC moving from academia into enterprise, you're both seeing this happen, where do you think we are on the adoption curve and sort of in that cycle? Armando, do you want to go? >> Yeah, well, if you look at the market research, they're actually telling you it's 50/50 now. So Ethernet is at the level of 50%, InfinBand's at 50%, right? >> Savannah: Interesting. >> Yeah, and so what's interesting to us, customers are coming to us and say, hey, we want to see flexibility and choice and, hey, let's look at Ethernet and let's look at InfiniBand. But what is interesting about this is that we're working with Broadcom, we have their chips in our lab, we their have switches in our lab. And really what we're trying to do is make it easy to simple and configure the network for essentially MPI. And so the goal here with our validated designs is really to simplify this. So if you have a customer that, hey, I've been InfiniBand but now I want to go Ethernet, there's going to be some learning curves there. And so what we want to do is really simplify that so that we can make it easy to install, get the cluster up and running and they can actually get some value out the cluster. >> Yeah, Pete, talk about that partnership. what does that look like? I mean, are you working with Dell before the T six comes out? Or you just say what would be cool is we'll put this in the T six? >> No, we've had a very long partnership both on the hardware and the software side. Dell's been an early adopter of our silicon. We've worked very closely on SI and Sonic on the operating system, and they provide very valuable feedback for us on our roadmap. So before we put out a new chip, and we have actually three different product lines within the switching group, within Broadcom, we've then gotten very valuable feedback on the hardware and on the APIs, on the operating system that goes on top of those chips. So that way when it comes to market, Dell can take it and deliver the exact features that they have in the current generation to their customers to have that continuity. And also they give us feedback on the next gen features they'd like to see again, in both the hardware and the software. >> So I'm fascinated by... I always like to know like what, yeah, exactly. Look, you start talking about the largest supercomputers, most powerful supercomputers that exist today, and you start looking at the specs and there might be two million CPUs, 2 million CPU cores. Exoflap of performance. What are the outward limits of T five in switches, building out a fabric, what does that look like? What are the increments in terms of how many... And I know it's a depends answer, but how many nodes can you support in a scale out cluster before you need another switch? Or what does that increment of scale look like today? >> Yeah, so this is 51.2 terabytes per second. Where we see the most common implementation based on this would be with 400 gig Ethernet ports. >> David: Okay. >> So that would be 128, 400 gig E ports connected to one chip. Now, if you went to 200 gig, which is kind of the state of the art for the nicks, you can have double that. So in a single hop, you can have 256 end nodes connected through one switch. >> Okay, so this T five, that thing right there, (all laughing) inside a sheet metal box, obviously you've got a bunch of ports coming out of that. So what's the form factor look like for where that T five sits? Is there just one in a chassis or you have.. What does that look like? >> It tends to be pizza boxes these days. What you've seen overall is that the industry's moved away from chassis for these high end systems more towardS pizza boxes. And you can have composable systems where, in the past you would have line cards, either the fabric cards that the line cards are plug into or interfaced to. These days what tends to happen is you'd have a pizza box and if you wanted to build up like a virtual chassis, what you would do is use one of those pizza boxes as the fabric card, one of them as the line card. >> David: Okay. >> So what we see, the most common form factor for this is they tend to be two, I'd say for North America, most common would be a 2RU, with 64 OSFP ports. And often each of those OSFP, which is an 800 gig E or 800 gig port, we've broken out into two 400 gig ports. >> So yeah, in 2RU, and this is all air cooled, in 2RU, you've got 51.2 T. We do see some cases where customers would like to have different optics and they'll actually deploy 4RU, just so that way they have the phase-space density. So they can plug in 128, say QSFP 112. But yeah, it really depends on which optics, if you want to have DAK connectivity combined with optics. But those are the two most common form factors. >> And Armando, Ethernet isn't necessarily Ethernet in the sense that many protocols can be run over it. >> Right. >> I think I have a projector at home that's actually using Ethernet physical connections. But, so what are we talking about here in terms of the actual protocol that's running over this? Is this exactly the same as what you think of as data center Ethernet, or is this RDMA over converged Ethernet? What Are we talking about? >> Yeah, so RDMA, right? So when you look at running, essentially HPC workloads, you have the NPI protocol, so message passing interface, right? And so what you need to do is you may need to make sure that that NPI message passing interface runs efficiently on Ethernet. And so this is why we want to test and validate all these different things to make sure that that protocol runs really, really fast on Ethernet. If you look at NPIs officially, built to, hey, it was designed to run on InfiniBand but now what you see with Broadcom, with the great work they're doing, now we can make that work on Ethernet and get same performance, so that's huge for customers. >> Both of you get to see a lot of different types of customers. I kind of feel like you're a little bit of a looking into the crystal ball type because you essentially get to see the future knowing what people are trying to achieve moving forward. Talk to us about the future of Ethernet in HPC in terms of AI and ML, where do you think we're going to be next year or 10 years from now? >> You want to go first or you want me to go first? >> I can start, yeah. >> Savannah: Pete feels ready. >> So I mean, what I see, I mean, Ethernet, what we've seen is that as far as on, starting off of the switch side, is that we've consistently doubled the bandwidth every 18 to 24 months. >> That's impressive. >> Pete: Yeah. >> Nicely done, casual, humble brag there. That was great, I love that. I'm here for you. >> I mean, I think that's one of the benefits of Ethernet, is the ecosystem, is the trajectory the roadmap we've had, I mean, you don't see that in any of the networking technology. >> David: More who? (all laughing) >> So I see that, that trajectory is going to continue as far as the switches doubling in bandwidth, I think that they're evolving protocols, especially again, as you're moving away from academia into the enterprise, into cloud data centers, you need to have a combination of protocols. So you'll probably focus still on RDMA, for the supercomputing, the AI/ML workloads. But we do see that as you have a mix of the applications running on these end nodes, maybe they're interfacing to the CPUs for some processing, you might use a different mix of protocols. So I'd say it's going to be doubling a bandwidth over time, evolution of the protocols. I mean, I expect that Rocky is probably going to evolve over time depending on the AI/ML and the HPC workloads. I think also there's a big change coming as far as the physical connectivity within the data center. Like one thing we've been focusing on is co-packed optics. So right now, this chip is, all the balls in the back here, there's electrical connections. >> How many are there, by the way? 9,000 plus on the back of that-- >> 9,352. >> I love how specific it is. It's brilliant. >> Yeah, so right now, all the SERDES, all the signals are coming out electrically based, but we've actually shown, we actually we have a version of Tomahawk 4 at 25.6 T that has co-packed optics. So instead of having electrical output, you actually have optics directly out of the package. And if you look at, we'll have a version of Tomahawk 5. >> Nice. >> Where it's actually even a smaller form factor than this, where instead of having the electrical output from the bottom, you actually have fibers that plug directly into the sides. >> Wow. Cool. >> So I see there's the bandwidth, there's radix's increasing, protocols, different physical connectivity. So I think there's a lot of things throughout, and the protocol stack's also evolving. So a lot of excitement, a lot of new technology coming to bear. >> Okay, You just threw a carrot down the rabbit hole. I'm only going to chase this one, okay? >> Peter: All right. >> So I think of individual discreet physical connections to the back of those balls. >> Yeah. >> So if there's 9,000, fill in the blank, that's how many connections there are. How do you do that many optical connections? What's the mapping there? What does that look like? >> So what we've announced for Tomahawk 5 is it would have FR4 optics coming out. So you'd actually have 512 fiber pairs coming out. So basically on all four sides, you'd have these fiber ribbons that come in and connect. There's actually fibers coming out of the sides there. We wind up having, actually, I think in this case, we would actually have 512 channels and it would wind up being on 128 actual fiber pairs because-- >> It's miraculous, essentially. >> Savannah: I know. >> Yeah. So a lot of people are going to be looking at this and thinking in terms of InfiniBand versus Ethernet, I think you've highlighted some of the benefits of specifically running Ethernet moving forward as HPC which sort of just trails slightly behind super computing as we define it, becomes more pervasive AI/ML. What are some of the other things that maybe people might not immediately think about when they think about the advantages of running Ethernet in that environment? Is it about connecting the HPC part of their business into the rest of it? What are the advantages? >> Yeah, I mean, that's a big thing. I think, and one of the biggest things that Ethernet has again, is that the data centers, the networks within enterprises, within clouds right now are run on Ethernet. So now, if you want to add services for your customers, the easiest thing for you to do is the drop in clusters that are connected with the same networking technology. So I think one of the biggest things there is that if you look at what's happening with some of the other proprietary technologies, I mean, in some cases they'll have two different types of networking technologies before they interface to Ethernet. So now you've got to train your technicians, you train your assist admins on two different network technologies. You need to have all the debug technology, all the interconnect for that. So here, the easiest thing is you can use Ethernet, it's going to give you the same performance and actually, in some cases, we've seen better performance than we've seen with Omni-Path, better than in InfiniBand. >> That's awesome. Armando, we didn't get to you, so I want to make sure we get your future hot take. Where do you see the future of Ethernet here in HPC? >> Well, Pete hit on a big thing is bandwidth, right? So when you look at, train a model, okay? So when you go and train a model in AI, you need to have a lot of data in order to train that model, right? So what you do is essentially, you build a model, you choose whatever neural network you want to utilize. But if you don't have a good data set that's trained over that model, you can't essentially train the model. So if you have bandwidth, you want big pipes because you have to move that data set from the storage to the CPU. And essentially, if you're going to do it maybe on CPU only, but if you do it on accelerators, well, guess what? You need a big pipe in order to get all that data through. And here's the deal, the bigger the pipe you have, the more data, the faster you can train that model. So the faster you can train that model, guess what? The faster you get to some new insight, maybe it's a new competitive advantage, maybe it's some new way you design a product, but that's a benefit of speed, you want faster, faster, faster. >> It's all about making it faster and easier-- for the users. >> Armando: It is. >> I love that. Last question for you, Pete, just because you've said Tomahawk seven times, and I'm thinking we're in Texas, stakes, there's a lot going on with that. >> Making me hungry. >> I know, exactly. I'm sitting out here thinking, man, I did not have big enough breakfast. How did you come up with the name Tomahawk? >> So Tomahawk, I think it just came from a list. So we have a tried end product line. >> Savannah: Ah, yes. >> Which is a missile product line. And Tomahawk is being kind of like the bigger and batter missile, so. >> Savannah: Love this. Yeah, I mean-- >> So do you like your engineers? You get to name it. >> Had to ask. >> It's collaborative. >> Okay. >> We want to make sure everyone's in sync with it. >> So just it's not the Aquaman tried. >> Right. >> It's the steak Tomahawk. I think we're good now. >> Now that we've cleared that-- >> Now we've cleared that up. >> Armando, Pete, it was really nice to have both you. Thank you for teaching us about the future of Ethernet and HCP. David Nicholson, always a pleasure to share the stage with you. And thank you all for tuning in to theCUBE live from Dallas. We're here talking all things HPC and supercomputing all day long. We hope you'll continue to tune in. My name's Savannah Peterson, thanks for joining us. (soft music)

>>When Oracle acquired my SQL via the Sun acquisition, nobody really thought the company would put much effort into the platform preferring to focus all the wood behind its leading Oracle database, Arrow pun intended. But two years ago, Oracle surprised many folks by announcing my SQL Heatwave a new database as a service with a massively parallel hybrid Columbia in Mary Mary architecture that brings together transactional and analytic data in a single platform. Welcome to our latest database, power panel on the cube. My name is Dave Ante, and today we're gonna discuss Oracle's MySQL Heat Wave with a who's who of cloud database industry analysts. Holgar Mueller is with Constellation Research. Mark Stammer is the Dragon Slayer and Wikibon contributor. And Ron Westfall is with Fu Chim Research. Gentlemen, welcome back to the Cube. Always a pleasure to have you on. Thanks for having us. Great to be here. >>So we've had a number of of deep dive interviews on the Cube with Nip and Aggarwal. You guys know him? He's a senior vice president of MySQL, Heatwave Development at Oracle. I think you just saw him at Oracle Cloud World and he's come on to describe this is gonna, I'll call it a shock and awe feature additions to to heatwave. You know, the company's clearly putting r and d into the platform and I think at at cloud world we saw like the fifth major release since 2020 when they first announced MySQL heat wave. So just listing a few, they, they got, they taken, brought in analytics machine learning, they got autopilot for machine learning, which is automation onto the basic o l TP functionality of the database. And it's been interesting to watch Oracle's converge database strategy. We've contrasted that amongst ourselves. Love to get your thoughts on Amazon's get the right tool for the right job approach. >>Are they gonna have to change that? You know, Amazon's got the specialized databases, it's just, you know, the both companies are doing well. It just shows there are a lot of ways to, to skin a cat cuz you see some traction in the market in, in both approaches. So today we're gonna focus on the latest heat wave announcements and we're gonna talk about multi-cloud with a native MySQL heat wave implementation, which is available on aws MySQL heat wave for Azure via the Oracle Microsoft interconnect. This kind of cool hybrid action that they got going. Sometimes we call it super cloud. And then we're gonna dive into my SQL Heatwave Lake house, which allows users to process and query data across MyQ databases as heatwave databases, as well as object stores. So, and then we've got, heatwave has been announced on AWS and, and, and Azure, they're available now and Lake House I believe is in beta and I think it's coming out the second half of next year. So again, all of our guests are fresh off of Oracle Cloud world in Las Vegas. So they got the latest scoop. Guys, I'm done talking. Let's get into it. Mark, maybe you could start us off, what's your opinion of my SQL Heatwaves competitive position? When you think about what AWS is doing, you know, Google is, you know, we heard Google Cloud next recently, we heard about all their data innovations. You got, obviously Azure's got a big portfolio, snowflakes doing well in the market. What's your take? >>Well, first let's look at it from the point of view that AWS is the market leader in cloud and cloud services. They own somewhere between 30 to 50% depending on who you read of the market. And then you have Azure as number two and after that it falls off. There's gcp, Google Cloud platform, which is further way down the list and then Oracle and IBM and Alibaba. So when you look at AWS and you and Azure saying, hey, these are the market leaders in the cloud, then you start looking at it and saying, if I am going to provide a service that competes with the service they have, if I can make it available in their cloud, it means that I can be more competitive. And if I'm compelling and compelling means at least twice the performance or functionality or both at half the price, I should be able to gain market share. >>And that's what Oracle's done. They've taken a superior product in my SQL heat wave, which is faster, lower cost does more for a lot less at the end of the day and they make it available to the users of those clouds. You avoid this little thing called egress fees, you avoid the issue of having to migrate from one cloud to another and suddenly you have a very compelling offer. So I look at what Oracle's doing with MyQ and it feels like, I'm gonna use a word term, a flanking maneuver to their competition. They're offering a better service on their platforms. >>All right, so thank you for that. Holger, we've seen this sort of cadence, I sort of referenced it up front a little bit and they sat on MySQL for a decade, then all of a sudden we see this rush of announcements. Why did it take so long? And and more importantly is Oracle, are they developing the right features that cloud database customers are looking for in your view? >>Yeah, great question, but first of all, in your interview you said it's the edit analytics, right? Analytics is kind of like a marketing buzzword. Reports can be analytics, right? The interesting thing, which they did, the first thing they, they, they crossed the chasm between OTP and all up, right? In the same database, right? So major engineering feed very much what customers want and it's all about creating Bellevue for customers, which, which I think is the part why they go into the multi-cloud and why they add these capabilities. And they certainly with the AI capabilities, it's kind of like getting it into an autonomous field, self-driving field now with the lake cost capabilities and meeting customers where they are, like Mark has talked about the e risk costs in the cloud. So that that's a significant advantage, creating value for customers and that's what at the end of the day matters. >>And I believe strongly that long term it's gonna be ones who create better value for customers who will get more of their money From that perspective, why then take them so long? I think it's a great question. I think largely he mentioned the gentleman Nial, it's largely to who leads a product. I used to build products too, so maybe I'm a little fooling myself here, but that made the difference in my view, right? So since he's been charged, he's been building things faster than the rest of the competition, than my SQL space, which in hindsight we thought was a hot and smoking innovation phase. It kind of like was a little self complacent when it comes to the traditional borders of where, where people think, where things are separated between OTP and ola or as an example of adjacent support, right? Structured documents, whereas unstructured documents or databases and all of that has been collapsed and brought together for building a more powerful database for customers. >>So I mean it's certainly, you know, when, when Oracle talks about the competitors, you know, the competitors are in the, I always say they're, if the Oracle talks about you and knows you're doing well, so they talk a lot about aws, talk a little bit about Snowflake, you know, sort of Google, they have partnerships with Azure, but, but in, so I'm presuming that the response in MySQL heatwave was really in, in response to what they were seeing from those big competitors. But then you had Maria DB coming out, you know, the day that that Oracle acquired Sun and, and launching and going after the MySQL base. So it's, I'm, I'm interested and we'll talk about this later and what you guys think AWS and Google and Azure and Snowflake and how they're gonna respond. But, but before I do that, Ron, I want to ask you, you, you, you can get, you know, pretty technical and you've probably seen the benchmarks. >>I know you have Oracle makes a big deal out of it, publishes its benchmarks, makes some transparent on on GI GitHub. Larry Ellison talked about this in his keynote at Cloud World. What are the benchmarks show in general? I mean, when you, when you're new to the market, you gotta have a story like Mark was saying, you gotta be two x you know, the performance at half the cost or you better be or you're not gonna get any market share. So, and, and you know, oftentimes companies don't publish market benchmarks when they're leading. They do it when they, they need to gain share. So what do you make of the benchmarks? Have their, any results that were surprising to you? Have, you know, they been challenged by the competitors. Is it just a bunch of kind of desperate bench marketing to make some noise in the market or you know, are they real? What's your view? >>Well, from my perspective, I think they have the validity. And to your point, I believe that when it comes to competitor responses, that has not really happened. Nobody has like pulled down the information that's on GitHub and said, Oh, here are our price performance results. And they counter oracles. In fact, I think part of the reason why that hasn't happened is that there's the risk if Oracle's coming out and saying, Hey, we can deliver 17 times better query performance using our capabilities versus say, Snowflake when it comes to, you know, the Lakehouse platform and Snowflake turns around and says it's actually only 15 times better during performance, that's not exactly an effective maneuver. And so I think this is really to oracle's credit and I think it's refreshing because these differentiators are significant. We're not talking, you know, like 1.2% differences. We're talking 17 fold differences, we're talking six fold differences depending on, you know, where the spotlight is being shined and so forth. >>And so I think this is actually something that is actually too good to believe initially at first blush. If I'm a cloud database decision maker, I really have to prioritize this. I really would know, pay a lot more attention to this. And that's why I posed the question to Oracle and others like, okay, if these differentiators are so significant, why isn't the needle moving a bit more? And it's for, you know, some of the usual reasons. One is really deep discounting coming from, you know, the other players that's really kind of, you know, marketing 1 0 1, this is something you need to do when there's a real competitive threat to keep, you know, a customer in your own customer base. Plus there is the usual fear and uncertainty about moving from one platform to another. But I think, you know, the traction, the momentum is, is shifting an Oracle's favor. I think we saw that in the Q1 efforts, for example, where Oracle cloud grew 44% and that it generated, you know, 4.8 billion and revenue if I recall correctly. And so, so all these are demonstrating that's Oracle is making, I think many of the right moves, publishing these figures for anybody to look at from their own perspective is something that is, I think, good for the market and I think it's just gonna continue to pay dividends for Oracle down the horizon as you know, competition intens plots. So if I were in, >>Dave, can I, Dave, can I interject something and, and what Ron just said there? Yeah, please go ahead. A couple things here, one discounting, which is a common practice when you have a real threat, as Ron pointed out, isn't going to help much in this situation simply because you can't discount to the point where you improve your performance and the performance is a huge differentiator. You may be able to get your price down, but the problem that most of them have is they don't have an integrated product service. They don't have an integrated O L T P O L A P M L N data lake. Even if you cut out two of them, they don't have any of them integrated. They have multiple services that are required separate integration and that can't be overcome with discounting. And the, they, you have to pay for each one of these. And oh, by the way, as you grow, the discounts go away. So that's a, it's a minor important detail. >>So, so that's a TCO question mark, right? And I know you look at this a lot, if I had that kind of price performance advantage, I would be pounding tco, especially if I need two separate databases to do the job. That one can do, that's gonna be, the TCO numbers are gonna be off the chart or maybe down the chart, which you want. Have you looked at this and how does it compare with, you know, the big cloud guys, for example, >>I've looked at it in depth, in fact, I'm working on another TCO on this arena, but you can find it on Wiki bod in which I compared TCO for MySEQ Heat wave versus Aurora plus Redshift plus ML plus Blue. I've compared it against gcps services, Azure services, Snowflake with other services. And there's just no comparison. The, the TCO differences are huge. More importantly, thefor, the, the TCO per performance is huge. We're talking in some cases multiple orders of magnitude, but at least an order of magnitude difference. So discounting isn't gonna help you much at the end of the day, it's only going to lower your cost a little, but it doesn't improve the automation, it doesn't improve the performance, it doesn't improve the time to insight, it doesn't improve all those things that you want out of a database or multiple databases because you >>Can't discount yourself to a higher value proposition. >>So what about, I wonder ho if you could chime in on the developer angle. You, you followed that, that market. How do these innovations from heatwave, I think you used the term developer velocity. I've heard you used that before. Yeah, I mean, look, Oracle owns Java, okay, so it, it's, you know, most popular, you know, programming language in the world, blah, blah blah. But it does it have the, the minds and hearts of, of developers and does, where does heatwave fit into that equation? >>I think heatwave is gaining quickly mindshare on the developer side, right? It's not the traditional no sequel database which grew up, there's a traditional mistrust of oracles to developers to what was happening to open source when gets acquired. Like in the case of Oracle versus Java and where my sql, right? And, but we know it's not a good competitive strategy to, to bank on Oracle screwing up because it hasn't worked not on Java known my sequel, right? And for developers, it's, once you get to know a technology product and you can do more, it becomes kind of like a Swiss army knife and you can build more use case, you can build more powerful applications. That's super, super important because you don't have to get certified in multiple databases. You, you are fast at getting things done, you achieve fire, develop velocity, and the managers are happy because they don't have to license more things, send you to more trainings, have more risk of something not being delivered, right? >>So it's really the, we see the suite where this best of breed play happening here, which in general was happening before already with Oracle's flagship database. Whereas those Amazon as an example, right? And now the interesting thing is every step away Oracle was always a one database company that can be only one and they're now generally talking about heat web and that two database company with different market spaces, but same value proposition of integrating more things very, very quickly to have a universal database that I call, they call the converge database for all the needs of an enterprise to run certain application use cases. And that's what's attractive to developers. >>It's, it's ironic isn't it? I mean I, you know, the rumor was the TK Thomas Curian left Oracle cuz he wanted to put Oracle database on other clouds and other places. And maybe that was the rift. Maybe there was, I'm sure there was other things, but, but Oracle clearly is now trying to expand its Tam Ron with, with heatwave into aws, into Azure. How do you think Oracle's gonna do, you were at a cloud world, what was the sentiment from customers and the independent analyst? Is this just Oracle trying to screw with the competition, create a little diversion? Or is this, you know, serious business for Oracle? What do you think? >>No, I think it has lakes. I think it's definitely, again, attriting to Oracle's overall ability to differentiate not only my SQL heat wave, but its overall portfolio. And I think the fact that they do have the alliance with the Azure in place, that this is definitely demonstrating their commitment to meeting the multi-cloud needs of its customers as well as what we pointed to in terms of the fact that they're now offering, you know, MySQL capabilities within AWS natively and that it can now perform AWS's own offering. And I think this is all demonstrating that Oracle is, you know, not letting up, they're not resting on its laurels. That's clearly we are living in a multi-cloud world, so why not just make it more easy for customers to be able to use cloud databases according to their own specific, specific needs. And I think, you know, to holder's point, I think that definitely lines with being able to bring on more application developers to leverage these capabilities. >>I think one important announcement that's related to all this was the JSON relational duality capabilities where now it's a lot easier for application developers to use a language that they're very familiar with a JS O and not have to worry about going into relational databases to store their J S O N application coding. So this is, I think an example of the innovation that's enhancing the overall Oracle portfolio and certainly all the work with machine learning is definitely paying dividends as well. And as a result, I see Oracle continue to make these inroads that we pointed to. But I agree with Mark, you know, the short term discounting is just a stall tag. This is not denying the fact that Oracle is being able to not only deliver price performance differentiators that are dramatic, but also meeting a wide range of needs for customers out there that aren't just limited device performance consideration. >>Being able to support multi-cloud according to customer needs. Being able to reach out to the application developer community and address a very specific challenge that has plagued them for many years now. So bring it all together. Yeah, I see this as just enabling Oracles who ring true with customers. That the customers that were there were basically all of them, even though not all of them are going to be saying the same things, they're all basically saying positive feedback. And likewise, I think the analyst community is seeing this. It's always refreshing to be able to talk to customers directly and at Oracle cloud there was a litany of them and so this is just a difference maker as well as being able to talk to strategic partners. The nvidia, I think partnerships also testament to Oracle's ongoing ability to, you know, make the ecosystem more user friendly for the customers out there. >>Yeah, it's interesting when you get these all in one tools, you know, the Swiss Army knife, you expect that it's not able to be best of breed. That's the kind of surprising thing that I'm hearing about, about heatwave. I want to, I want to talk about Lake House because when I think of Lake House, I think data bricks, and to my knowledge data bricks hasn't been in the sites of Oracle yet. Maybe they're next, but, but Oracle claims that MySQL, heatwave, Lakehouse is a breakthrough in terms of capacity and performance. Mark, what are your thoughts on that? Can you double click on, on Lakehouse Oracle's claims for things like query performance and data loading? What does it mean for the market? Is Oracle really leading in, in the lake house competitive landscape? What are your thoughts? >>Well, but name in the game is what are the problems you're solving for the customer? More importantly, are those problems urgent or important? If they're urgent, customers wanna solve 'em. Now if they're important, they might get around to them. So you look at what they're doing with Lake House or previous to that machine learning or previous to that automation or previous to that O L A with O ltp and they're merging all this capability together. If you look at Snowflake or data bricks, they're tacking one problem. You look at MyQ heat wave, they're tacking multiple problems. So when you say, yeah, their queries are much better against the lake house in combination with other analytics in combination with O ltp and the fact that there are no ETLs. So you're getting all this done in real time. So it's, it's doing the query cross, cross everything in real time. >>You're solving multiple user and developer problems, you're increasing their ability to get insight faster, you're having shorter response times. So yeah, they really are solving urgent problems for customers. And by putting it where the customer lives, this is the brilliance of actually being multicloud. And I know I'm backing up here a second, but by making it work in AWS and Azure where people already live, where they already have applications, what they're saying is, we're bringing it to you. You don't have to come to us to get these, these benefits, this value overall, I think it's a brilliant strategy. I give Nip and Argo wallet a huge, huge kudos for what he's doing there. So yes, what they're doing with the lake house is going to put notice on data bricks and Snowflake and everyone else for that matter. Well >>Those are guys that whole ago you, you and I have talked about this. Those are, those are the guys that are doing sort of the best of breed. You know, they're really focused and they, you know, tend to do well at least out of the gate. Now you got Oracle's converged philosophy, obviously with Oracle database. We've seen that now it's kicking in gear with, with heatwave, you know, this whole thing of sweets versus best of breed. I mean the long term, you know, customers tend to migrate towards suite, but the new shiny toy tends to get the growth. How do you think this is gonna play out in cloud database? >>Well, it's the forever never ending story, right? And in software right suite, whereas best of breed and so far in the long run suites have always won, right? So, and sometimes they struggle again because the inherent problem of sweets is you build something larger, it has more complexity and that means your cycles to get everything working together to integrate the test that roll it out, certify whatever it is, takes you longer, right? And that's not the case. It's a fascinating part of what the effort around my SQL heat wave is that the team is out executing the previous best of breed data, bringing us something together. Now if they can maintain that pace, that's something to to, to be seen. But it, the strategy, like what Mark was saying, bring the software to the data is of course interesting and unique and totally an Oracle issue in the past, right? >>Yeah. But it had to be in your database on oci. And but at, that's an interesting part. The interesting thing on the Lake health side is, right, there's three key benefits of a lakehouse. The first one is better reporting analytics, bring more rich information together, like make the, the, the case for silicon angle, right? We want to see engagements for this video, we want to know what's happening. That's a mixed transactional video media use case, right? Typical Lakehouse use case. The next one is to build more rich applications, transactional applications which have video and these elements in there, which are the engaging one. And the third one, and that's where I'm a little critical and concerned, is it's really the base platform for artificial intelligence, right? To run deep learning to run things automatically because they have all the data in one place can create in one way. >>And that's where Oracle, I know that Ron talked about Invidia for a moment, but that's where Oracle doesn't have the strongest best story. Nonetheless, the two other main use cases of the lake house are very strong, very well only concern is four 50 terabyte sounds long. It's an arbitrary limitation. Yeah, sounds as big. So for the start, and it's the first word, they can make that bigger. You don't want your lake house to be limited and the terabyte sizes or any even petabyte size because you want to have the certainty. I can put everything in there that I think it might be relevant without knowing what questions to ask and query those questions. >>Yeah. And you know, in the early days of no schema on right, it just became a mess. But now technology has evolved to allow us to actually get more value out of that data. Data lake. Data swamp is, you know, not much more, more, more, more logical. But, and I want to get in, in a moment, I want to come back to how you think the competitors are gonna respond. Are they gonna have to sort of do a more of a converged approach? AWS in particular? But before I do, Ron, I want to ask you a question about autopilot because I heard Larry Ellison's keynote and he was talking about how, you know, most security issues are human errors with autonomy and autonomous database and things like autopilot. We take care of that. It's like autonomous vehicles, they're gonna be safer. And I went, well maybe, maybe someday. So Oracle really tries to emphasize this, that every time you see an announcement from Oracle, they talk about new, you know, autonomous capabilities. It, how legit is it? Do people care? What about, you know, what's new for heatwave Lakehouse? How much of a differentiator, Ron, do you really think autopilot is in this cloud database space? >>Yeah, I think it will definitely enhance the overall proposition. I don't think people are gonna buy, you know, lake house exclusively cause of autopilot capabilities, but when they look at the overall picture, I think it will be an added capability bonus to Oracle's benefit. And yeah, I think it's kind of one of these age old questions, how much do you automate and what is the bounce to strike? And I think we all understand with the automatic car, autonomous car analogy that there are limitations to being able to use that. However, I think it's a tool that basically every organization out there needs to at least have or at least evaluate because it goes to the point of it helps with ease of use, it helps make automation more balanced in terms of, you know, being able to test, all right, let's automate this process and see if it works well, then we can go on and switch on on autopilot for other processes. >>And then, you know, that allows, for example, the specialists to spend more time on business use cases versus, you know, manual maintenance of, of the cloud database and so forth. So I think that actually is a, a legitimate value proposition. I think it's just gonna be a case by case basis. Some organizations are gonna be more aggressive with putting automation throughout their processes throughout their organization. Others are gonna be more cautious. But it's gonna be, again, something that will help the overall Oracle proposition. And something that I think will be used with caution by many organizations, but other organizations are gonna like, hey, great, this is something that is really answering a real problem. And that is just easing the use of these databases, but also being able to better handle the automation capabilities and benefits that come with it without having, you know, a major screwup happened and the process of transitioning to more automated capabilities. >>Now, I didn't attend cloud world, it's just too many red eyes, you know, recently, so I passed. But one of the things I like to do at those events is talk to customers, you know, in the spirit of the truth, you know, they, you know, you'd have the hallway, you know, track and to talk to customers and they say, Hey, you know, here's the good, the bad and the ugly. So did you guys, did you talk to any customers my SQL Heatwave customers at, at cloud world? And and what did you learn? I don't know, Mark, did you, did you have any luck and, and having some, some private conversations? >>Yeah, I had quite a few private conversations. The one thing before I get to that, I want disagree with one point Ron made, I do believe there are customers out there buying the heat wave service, the MySEQ heat wave server service because of autopilot. Because autopilot is really revolutionary in many ways in the sense for the MySEQ developer in that it, it auto provisions, it auto parallel loads, IT auto data places it auto shape predictions. It can tell you what machine learning models are going to tell you, gonna give you your best results. And, and candidly, I've yet to meet a DBA who didn't wanna give up pedantic tasks that are pain in the kahoo, which they'd rather not do and if it's long as it was done right for them. So yes, I do think people are buying it because of autopilot and that's based on some of the conversations I had with customers at Oracle Cloud World. >>In fact, it was like, yeah, that's great, yeah, we get fantastic performance, but this really makes my life easier and I've yet to meet a DBA who didn't want to make their life easier. And it does. So yeah, I've talked to a few of them. They were excited. I asked them if they ran into any bugs, were there any difficulties in moving to it? And the answer was no. In both cases, it's interesting to note, my sequel is the most popular database on the planet. Well, some will argue that it's neck and neck with SQL Server, but if you add in Mariah DB and ProCon db, which are forks of MySQL, then yeah, by far and away it's the most popular. And as a result of that, everybody for the most part has typically a my sequel database somewhere in their organization. So this is a brilliant situation for anybody going after MyQ, but especially for heat wave. And the customers I talk to love it. I didn't find anybody complaining about it. And >>What about the migration? We talked about TCO earlier. Did your t does your TCO analysis include the migration cost or do you kind of conveniently leave that out or what? >>Well, when you look at migration costs, there are different kinds of migration costs. By the way, the worst job in the data center is the data migration manager. Forget it, no other job is as bad as that one. You get no attaboys for doing it. Right? And then when you screw up, oh boy. So in real terms, anything that can limit data migration is a good thing. And when you look at Data Lake, that limits data migration. So if you're already a MySEQ user, this is a pure MySQL as far as you're concerned. It's just a, a simple transition from one to the other. You may wanna make sure nothing broke and every you, all your tables are correct and your schema's, okay, but it's all the same. So it's a simple migration. So it's pretty much a non-event, right? When you migrate data from an O LTP to an O L A P, that's an ETL and that's gonna take time. >>But you don't have to do that with my SQL heat wave. So that's gone when you start talking about machine learning, again, you may have an etl, you may not, depending on the circumstances, but again, with my SQL heat wave, you don't, and you don't have duplicate storage, you don't have to copy it from one storage container to another to be able to be used in a different database, which by the way, ultimately adds much more cost than just the other service. So yeah, I looked at the migration and again, the users I talked to said it was a non-event. It was literally moving from one physical machine to another. If they had a new version of MySEQ running on something else and just wanted to migrate it over or just hook it up or just connect it to the data, it worked just fine. >>Okay, so every day it sounds like you guys feel, and we've certainly heard this, my colleague David Foyer, the semi-retired David Foyer was always very high on heatwave. So I think you knows got some real legitimacy here coming from a standing start, but I wanna talk about the competition, how they're likely to respond. I mean, if your AWS and you got heatwave is now in your cloud, so there's some good aspects of that. The database guys might not like that, but the infrastructure guys probably love it. Hey, more ways to sell, you know, EC two and graviton, but you're gonna, the database guys in AWS are gonna respond. They're gonna say, Hey, we got Redshift, we got aqua. What's your thoughts on, on not only how that's gonna resonate with customers, but I'm interested in what you guys think will a, I never say never about aws, you know, and are they gonna try to build, in your view a converged Oola and o LTP database? You know, Snowflake is taking an ecosystem approach. They've added in transactional capabilities to the portfolio so they're not standing still. What do you guys see in the competitive landscape in that regard going forward? Maybe Holger, you could start us off and anybody else who wants to can chime in, >>Happy to, you mentioned Snowflake last, we'll start there. I think Snowflake is imitating that strategy, right? That building out original data warehouse and the clouds tasking project to really proposition to have other data available there because AI is relevant for everybody. Ultimately people keep data in the cloud for ultimately running ai. So you see the same suite kind of like level strategy, it's gonna be a little harder because of the original positioning. How much would people know that you're doing other stuff? And I just, as a former developer manager of developers, I just don't see the speed at the moment happening at Snowflake to become really competitive to Oracle. On the flip side, putting my Oracle hat on for a moment back to you, Mark and Iran, right? What could Oracle still add? Because the, the big big things, right? The traditional chasms in the database world, they have built everything, right? >>So I, I really scratched my hat and gave Nipon a hard time at Cloud world say like, what could you be building? Destiny was very conservative. Let's get the Lakehouse thing done, it's gonna spring next year, right? And the AWS is really hard because AWS value proposition is these small innovation teams, right? That they build two pizza teams, which can be fit by two pizzas, not large teams, right? And you need suites to large teams to build these suites with lots of functionalities to make sure they work together. They're consistent, they have the same UX on the administration side, they can consume the same way, they have the same API registry, can't even stop going where the synergy comes to play over suite. So, so it's gonna be really, really hard for them to change that. But AWS super pragmatic. They're always by themselves that they'll listen to customers if they learn from customers suite as a proposition. I would not be surprised if AWS trying to bring things closer together, being morely together. >>Yeah. Well how about, can we talk about multicloud if, if, again, Oracle is very on on Oracle as you said before, but let's look forward, you know, half a year or a year. What do you think about Oracle's moves in, in multicloud in terms of what kind of penetration they're gonna have in the marketplace? You saw a lot of presentations at at cloud world, you know, we've looked pretty closely at the, the Microsoft Azure deal. I think that's really interesting. I've, I've called it a little bit of early days of a super cloud. What impact do you think this is gonna have on, on the marketplace? But, but both. And think about it within Oracle's customer base, I have no doubt they'll do great there. But what about beyond its existing install base? What do you guys think? >>Ryan, do you wanna jump on that? Go ahead. Go ahead Ryan. No, no, no, >>That's an excellent point. I think it aligns with what we've been talking about in terms of Lakehouse. I think Lake House will enable Oracle to pull more customers, more bicycle customers onto the Oracle platforms. And I think we're seeing all the signs pointing toward Oracle being able to make more inroads into the overall market. And that includes garnishing customers from the leaders in, in other words, because they are, you know, coming in as a innovator, a an alternative to, you know, the AWS proposition, the Google cloud proposition that they have less to lose and there's a result they can really drive the multi-cloud messaging to resonate with not only their existing customers, but also to be able to, to that question, Dave's posing actually garnish customers onto their platform. And, and that includes naturally my sequel but also OCI and so forth. So that's how I'm seeing this playing out. I think, you know, again, Oracle's reporting is indicating that, and I think what we saw, Oracle Cloud world is definitely validating the idea that Oracle can make more waves in the overall market in this regard. >>You know, I, I've floated this idea of Super cloud, it's kind of tongue in cheek, but, but there, I think there is some merit to it in terms of building on top of hyperscale infrastructure and abstracting some of the, that complexity. And one of the things that I'm most interested in is industry clouds and an Oracle acquisition of Cerner. I was struck by Larry Ellison's keynote, it was like, I don't know, an hour and a half and an hour and 15 minutes was focused on healthcare transformation. Well, >>So vertical, >>Right? And so, yeah, so you got Oracle's, you know, got some industry chops and you, and then you think about what they're building with, with not only oci, but then you got, you know, MyQ, you can now run in dedicated regions. You got ADB on on Exadata cloud to customer, you can put that OnPrem in in your data center and you look at what the other hyperscalers are, are doing. I I say other hyperscalers, I've always said Oracle's not really a hyperscaler, but they got a cloud so they're in the game. But you can't get, you know, big query OnPrem, you look at outposts, it's very limited in terms of, you know, the database support and again, that that will will evolve. But now you got Oracle's got, they announced Alloy, we can white label their cloud. So I'm interested in what you guys think about these moves, especially the industry cloud. We see, you know, Walmart is doing sort of their own cloud. You got Goldman Sachs doing a cloud. Do you, you guys, what do you think about that and what role does Oracle play? Any thoughts? >>Yeah, let me lemme jump on that for a moment. Now, especially with the MyQ, by making that available in multiple clouds, what they're doing is this follows the philosophy they've had the past with doing cloud, a customer taking the application and the data and putting it where the customer lives. If it's on premise, it's on premise. If it's in the cloud, it's in the cloud. By making the mice equal heat wave, essentially a plug compatible with any other mice equal as far as your, your database is concern and then giving you that integration with O L A P and ML and Data Lake and everything else, then what you've got is a compelling offering. You're making it easier for the customer to use. So I look the difference between MyQ and the Oracle database, MyQ is going to capture market more market share for them. >>You're not gonna find a lot of new users for the Oracle debate database. Yeah, there are always gonna be new users, don't get me wrong, but it's not gonna be a huge growth. Whereas my SQL heatwave is probably gonna be a major growth engine for Oracle going forward. Not just in their own cloud, but in AWS and in Azure and on premise over time that eventually it'll get there. It's not there now, but it will, they're doing the right thing on that basis. They're taking the services and when you talk about multicloud and making them available where the customer wants them, not forcing them to go where you want them, if that makes sense. And as far as where they're going in the future, I think they're gonna take a page outta what they've done with the Oracle database. They'll add things like JSON and XML and time series and spatial over time they'll make it a, a complete converged database like they did with the Oracle database. The difference being Oracle database will scale bigger and will have more transactions and be somewhat faster. And my SQL will be, for anyone who's not on the Oracle database, they're, they're not stupid, that's for sure. >>They've done Jason already. Right. But I give you that they could add graph and time series, right. Since eat with, Right, Right. Yeah, that's something absolutely right. That's, that's >>A sort of a logical move, right? >>Right. But that's, that's some kid ourselves, right? I mean has worked in Oracle's favor, right? 10 x 20 x, the amount of r and d, which is in the MyQ space, has been poured at trying to snatch workloads away from Oracle by starting with IBM 30 years ago, 20 years ago, Microsoft and, and, and, and didn't work, right? Database applications are extremely sticky when they run, you don't want to touch SIM and grow them, right? So that doesn't mean that heat phase is not an attractive offering, but it will be net new things, right? And what works in my SQL heat wave heat phases favor a little bit is it's not the massive enterprise applications which have like we the nails like, like you might be only running 30% or Oracle, but the connections and the interfaces into that is, is like 70, 80% of your enterprise. >>You take it out and it's like the spaghetti ball where you say, ah, no I really don't, don't want to do all that. Right? You don't, don't have that massive part with the equals heat phase sequel kind of like database which are more smaller tactical in comparison, but still I, I don't see them taking so much share. They will be growing because of a attractive value proposition quickly on the, the multi-cloud, right? I think it's not really multi-cloud. If you give people the chance to run your offering on different clouds, right? You can run it there. The multi-cloud advantages when the Uber offering comes out, which allows you to do things across those installations, right? I can migrate data, I can create data across something like Google has done with B query Omni, I can run predictive models or even make iron models in different place and distribute them, right? And Oracle is paving the road for that, but being available on these clouds. But the multi-cloud capability of database which knows I'm running on different clouds that is still yet to be built there. >>Yeah. And >>That the problem with >>That, that's the super cloud concept that I flowed and I I've always said kinda snowflake with a single global instance is sort of, you know, headed in that direction and maybe has a league. What's the issue with that mark? >>Yeah, the problem with the, with that version, the multi-cloud is clouds to charge egress fees. As long as they charge egress fees to move data between clouds, it's gonna make it very difficult to do a real multi-cloud implementation. Even Snowflake, which runs multi-cloud, has to pass out on the egress fees of their customer when data moves between clouds. And that's really expensive. I mean there, there is one customer I talked to who is beta testing for them, the MySQL heatwave and aws. The only reason they didn't want to do that until it was running on AWS is the egress fees were so great to move it to OCI that they couldn't afford it. Yeah. Egress fees are the big issue but, >>But Mark the, the point might be you might wanna root query and only get the results set back, right was much more tinier, which been the answer before for low latency between the class A problem, which we sometimes still have but mostly don't have. Right? And I think in general this with fees coming down based on the Oracle general E with fee move and it's very hard to justify those, right? But, but it's, it's not about moving data as a multi-cloud high value use case. It's about doing intelligent things with that data, right? Putting into other places, replicating it, what I'm saying the same thing what you said before, running remote queries on that, analyzing it, running AI on it, running AI models on that. That's the interesting thing. Cross administered in the same way. Taking things out, making sure compliance happens. Making sure when Ron says I don't want to be American anymore, I want to be in the European cloud that is gets migrated, right? So tho those are the interesting value use case which are really, really hard for enterprise to program hand by hand by developers and they would love to have out of the box and that's yet the innovation to come to, we have to come to see. But the first step to get there is that your software runs in multiple clouds and that's what Oracle's doing so well with my SQL >>Guys. Amazing. >>Go ahead. Yeah. >>Yeah. >>For example, >>Amazing amount of data knowledge and, and brain power in this market. Guys, I really want to thank you for coming on to the cube. Ron Holger. Mark, always a pleasure to have you on. Really appreciate your time. >>Well all the last names we're very happy for Romanic last and moderator. Thanks Dave for moderating us. All right, >>We'll see. We'll see you guys around. Safe travels to all and thank you for watching this power panel, The Truth About My SQL Heat Wave on the cube. Your leader in enterprise and emerging tech coverage.

>> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto and Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR, this is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vellante. >> This past week we saw two of the Big 3 cloud providers present the latest update on their respective cloud visions, their business progress, their announcements and innovations. The content at these events had many overlapping themes, including modern cloud infrastructure at global scale, applying advanced machine intelligence, AKA AI, end-to-end data platforms, collaboration software. They talked a lot about the future of work automation. And they gave us a little taste, each company of the Metaverse Web 3.0 and much more. Despite these striking similarities, the differences between these two cloud platforms and that of AWS remains significant. With Microsoft leveraging its massive application software footprint to dominate virtually all markets and Google doing everything in its power to keep up with the frenetic pace of today's cloud innovation, which was set into motion a decade and a half ago by AWS. Hello and welcome to this week's Wikibon CUBE Insights, powered by ETR. In this Breaking Analysis, we unpack the immense amount of content presented by the CEOs of Microsoft and Google Cloud at Microsoft Ignite and Google Cloud Next. We'll also quantify with ETR survey data the relative position of these two cloud giants in four key sectors: cloud IaaS, BI analytics, data platforms and collaboration software. Now one thing was clear this past week, hybrid events are the thing. Google Cloud Next took place live over a 24-hour period in six cities around the world, with the main gathering in New York City. Microsoft Ignite, which normally is attended by 30,000 people, had a smaller event in Seattle, in person with a virtual audience around the world. AWS re:Invent, of course, is much different. Yes, there's a virtual component at re:Invent, but it's all about a big live audience gathering the week after Thanksgiving, in the first week of December in Las Vegas. Regardless, Satya Nadella keynote address was prerecorded. It was highly produced and substantive. It was visionary, energetic with a strong message that Azure was a platform to allow customers to build their digital businesses. Doing more with less, which was a key theme of his. Nadella covered a lot of ground, starting with infrastructure from the compute, highlighting a collaboration with Arm-based, Ampere processors. New block storage, 60 regions, 175,000 miles of fiber cables around the world. He presented a meaningful multi-cloud message with Azure Arc to support on-prem and edge workloads, as well as of course the public cloud. And talked about confidential computing at the infrastructure level, a theme we hear from all cloud vendors. He then went deeper into the end-to-end data platform that Microsoft is building from the core data stores to analytics, to governance and the myriad tooling Microsoft offers. AI was next with a big focus on automation, AI, training models. He showed demos of machines coding and fixing code and machines automatically creating designs for creative workers and how Power Automate, Microsoft's RPA tooling, would combine with Microsoft Syntex to understand documents and provide standard ways for organizations to communicate with those documents. There was of course a big focus on Azure as developer cloud platform with GitHub Copilot as a linchpin using AI to assist coders in low-code and no-code innovations that are coming down the pipe. And another giant theme was a workforce transformation and how Microsoft is using its heritage and collaboration and productivity software to move beyond what Nadella called productivity paranoia, i.e., are remote workers doing their jobs? In a world where collaboration is built into intelligent workflows, and he even showed a glimpse of the future with AI-powered avatars and partnerships with Meta and Cisco with Teams of all firms. And finally, security with a bevy of tools from identity, endpoint, governance, et cetera, stressing a suite of tools from a single provider, i.e., Microsoft. So a couple points here. One, Microsoft is following in the footsteps of AWS with silicon advancements and didn't really emphasize that trend much except for the Ampere announcement. But it's building out cloud infrastructure at a massive scale, there is no debate about that. Its plan on data is to try and provide a somewhat more abstracted and simplified solutions, which differs a little bit from AWS's approach of the right database tool, for example, for the right job. Microsoft's automation play appears to provide simple individual productivity tools, kind of a ground up approach and make it really easy for users to drive these bottoms up initiatives. We heard from UiPath that forward five last month, a little bit of a different approach of horizontal automation, end-to-end across platforms. So quite a different play there. Microsoft's angle on workforce transformation is visionary and will continue to solidify in our view its dominant position with Teams and Microsoft 365, and it will drive cloud infrastructure consumption by default. On security as well as a cloud player, it has to have world-class security, and Azure does. There's not a lot of debate about that, but the knock on Microsoft is Patch Tuesday becomes Hack Wednesday because Microsoft releases so many patches, it's got so much Swiss cheese in its legacy estate and patching frequently, it becomes a roadmap and a trigger for hackers. Hey, patch Tuesday, these are all the exploits that you can go after so you can act before the patches are implemented. And so it's really become a problem for users. As well Microsoft is competing with many of the best-of-breed platforms like CrowdStrike and Okta, which have market momentum and appear to be more attractive horizontal plays for customers outside of just the Microsoft cloud. But again, it's Microsoft. They make it easy and very inexpensive to adopt. Now, despite the outstanding presentation by Satya Nadella, there are a couple of statements that should raise eyebrows. Here are two of them. First, as he said, Azure is the only cloud that supports all organizations and all workloads from enterprises to startups, to highly regulated industries. I had a conversation with Sarbjeet Johal about this, to make sure I wasn't just missing something and we were both surprised, somewhat, by this claim. I mean most certainly AWS supports more certifications for example, and we would think it has a reasonable case to dispute that claim. And the other statement, Nadella made, Azure is the only cloud provider enabling highly regulated industries to bring their most sensitive applications to the cloud. Now, reasonable people can debate whether AWS is there yet, but very clearly Oracle and IBM would have something to say about that statement. Now maybe it's not just, would say, "Oh, they're not real clouds, you know, they're just going to hosting in the cloud if you will." But still, when it comes to mission-critical applications, you would think Oracle is really the the leader there. Oh, and Satya also mentioned the claim that the Edge browser, the Microsoft Edge browser, no questions asked, he said, is the best browser for business. And we could see some people having some questions about that. Like isn't Edge based on Chrome? Anyway, so we just had to question these statements and challenge Microsoft to defend them because to us it's a little bit of BS and makes one wonder what else in such as awesome keynote and it was awesome, it was hyperbole. Okay, moving on to Google Cloud Next. The keynote started with Sundar Pichai doing a virtual session, he was remote, stressing the importance of Google Cloud. He mentioned that Google Cloud from its Q2 earnings was on a $25-billion annual run rate. What he didn't mention is that it's also on a 3.6 billion annual operating loss run rate based on its first half performance. Just saying. And we'll dig into that issue a little bit more later in this episode. He also stressed that the investments that Google has made to support its core business and search, like its global network of 22 subsea cables to support things like, YouTube video, great performance obviously that we all rely on, those innovations there. Innovations in BigQuery to support its search business and its threat analysis that it's always had and its AI, it's always been an AI-first company, he's stressed, that they're all leveraged by the Google Cloud Platform, GCP. This is all true by the way. Google has absolutely awesome tech and the talk, as well as his talk, Pichai, but also Kurian's was forward thinking and laid out a vision of the future. But it didn't address in our view, and I talked to Sarbjeet Johal about this as well, today's challenges to the degree that Microsoft did and we expect AWS will at re:Invent this year, it was more out there, more forward thinking, what's possible in the future, somewhat less about today's problem, so I think it's resonates less with today's enterprise players. Thomas Kurian then took over from Sundar Pichai and did a really good job of highlighting customers, and I think he has to, right? He has to say, "Look, we are in this game. We have customers, 9 out of the top 10 media firms use Google Cloud. 8 out of the top 10 manufacturers. 9 out of the top 10 retailers. Same for telecom, same for healthcare. 8 out of the top 10 retail banks." He and Sundar specifically referenced a number of companies, customers, including Avery Dennison, Groupe Renault, H&M, John Hopkins, Prudential, Minna Bank out of Japan, ANZ bank and many, many others during the session. So you know, they had some proof points and you got to give 'em props for that. Now like Microsoft, Google talked about infrastructure, they referenced training processors and regions and compute optionality and storage and how new workloads were emerging, particularly data-driven workloads in AI that required new infrastructure. He explicitly highlighted partnerships within Nvidia and Intel. I didn't see anything on Arm, which somewhat surprised me 'cause I believe Google's working on that or at least has come following in AWS's suit if you will, but maybe that's why they're not mentioning it or maybe I got to do more research there, but let's park that for a minute. But again, as we've extensively discussed in Breaking Analysis in our view when it comes to compute, AWS via its Annapurna acquisition is well ahead of the pack in this area. Arm is making its way into the enterprise, but all three companies are heavily investing in infrastructure, which is great news for customers and the ecosystem. We'll come back to that. Data and AI go hand in hand, and there was no shortage of data talk. Google didn't mention Snowflake or Databricks specifically, but it did mention, by the way, it mentioned Mongo a couple of times, but it did mention Google's, quote, Open Data cloud. Now maybe Google has used that term before, but Snowflake has been marketing the data cloud concept for a couple of years now. So that struck as a shot across the bow to one of its partners and obviously competitor, Snowflake. At BigQuery is a main centerpiece of Google's data strategy. Kurian talked about how they can take any data from any source in any format from any cloud provider with BigQuery Omni and aggregate and understand it. And with the support of Apache Iceberg and Delta and Hudi coming in the future and its open Data Cloud Alliance, they talked a lot about that. So without specifically mentioning Snowflake or Databricks, Kurian co-opted a lot of messaging from these two players, such as life and tech. Kurian also talked about Google Workspace and how it's now at 8 million users up from 6 million just two years ago. There's a lot of discussion on developer optionality and several details on tools supported and the open mantra of Google. And finally on security, Google brought out Kevin Mandian, he's a CUBE alum, extremely impressive individual who's CEO of Mandiant, a leading security service provider and consultancy that Google recently acquired for around 5.3 billion. They talked about moving from a shared responsibility model to a shared fate model, which is again, it's kind of a shot across AWS's bow, kind of shared responsibility model. It's unclear that Google will pay the same penalty if a customer doesn't live up to its portion of the shared responsibility, but we can probably assume that the customer is still going to bear the brunt of the pain, nonetheless. Mandiant is really interesting because it's a services play and Google has stated that it is not a services company, it's going to give partners in the channel plenty of room to play. So we'll see what it does with Mandiant. But Mandiant is a very strong enterprise capability and in the single most important area security. So interesting acquisition by Google. Now as well, unlike Microsoft, Google is not competing with security leaders like Okta and CrowdStrike. Rather, it's partnering aggressively with those firms and prominently putting them forth. All right. Let's get into the ETR survey data and see how Microsoft and Google are positioned in four key markets that we've mentioned before, IaaS, BI analytics, database data platforms and collaboration software. First, let's look at the IaaS cloud. ETR is just about to release its October survey, so I cannot share the that data yet. I can only show July data, but we're going to give you some directional hints throughout this conversation. This chart shows net score or spending momentum on the vertical axis and overlap or presence in the data, i.e., how pervasive the platform is. That's on the horizontal axis. And we've inserted the Wikibon estimates of IaaS revenue for the companies, the Big 3. Actually the Big 4, we included Alibaba. So a couple of points in this somewhat busy data chart. First, Microsoft and AWS as always are dominant on both axes. The red dotted line there at 40% on the vertical axis. That represents a highly elevated spending velocity and all of the Big 3 are above the line. Now at the same time, GCP is well behind the two leaders on the horizontal axis and you can see that in the table insert as well in our revenue estimates. Now why is Azure bigger in the ETR survey when AWS is larger according to the Wikibon revenue estimates? And the answer is because Microsoft with products like 365 and Teams will often be considered by respondents in the survey as cloud by customers, so they fit into that ETR category. But in the insert data we're stripping out applications and SaaS from Microsoft and Google and we're only isolating on IaaS. The other point is when you take a look at the early October returns, you see downward pressure as signified by those dotted arrows on every name. The only exception was Dell, or Dell and IBM, which showing slightly improved momentum. So the survey data generally confirms what we know that AWS and Azure have a massive lead and strong momentum in the marketplace. But the real story is below the line. Unlike Google Cloud, which is on pace to lose well over 3 billion on an operating basis this year, AWS's operating profit is around $20 billion annually. Microsoft's Intelligent Cloud generated more than $30 billion in operating income last fiscal year. Let that sink in for a moment. Now again, that's not to say Google doesn't have traction, it does and Kurian gave some nice proof points and customer examples in his keynote presentation, but the data underscores the lead that Microsoft and AWS have on Google in cloud. And here's a breakdown of ETR's proprietary net score methodology, that vertical axis that we showed you in the previous chart. It asks customers, are you adopting the platform new? That's that lime green. Are you spending 6% or more? That's the forest green. Is you're spending flat? That's the gray. Is you're spending down 6% or worse? That's the pinkest color. Or are you replacing the platform, defecting? That's the bright red. You subtract the reds from the greens and you get a net score. Now one caveat here, which actually is really favorable from Microsoft, the Microsoft data that we're showing here is across the entire Microsoft portfolio. The other point is, this is July data, we'll have an update for you once ETR releases its October results. But we're talking about meaningful samples here, the ends. 620 for AWS over a thousand from Microsoft in more than 450 respondents in the survey for Google. So the real tell is replacements, that bright red. There is virtually no churn for AWS and Microsoft, but Google's churn is 5x, those two in the survey. Now 5% churn is not high, but you'd like to see three things for Google given it's smaller size. One is less churn, two is much, much higher adoption rates in the lime green. Three is a higher percentage of those spending more, the forest green. And four is a lower percentage of those spending less. And none of these conditions really applies here for Google. GCP is still not growing fast enough in our opinion, and doesn't have nearly the traction of the two leaders and that shows up in the survey data. All right, let's look at the next sector, BI analytics. Here we have that same XY dimension. Again, Microsoft dominating the picture. AWS very strong also in both axes. Tableau, very popular and respectable of course acquired by Salesforce on the vertical axis, still looking pretty good there. And again on the horizontal axis, big presence there for Tableau. And Google with Looker and its other platforms is also respectable, but it again, has some work to do. Now notice Streamlit, that's a recent Snowflake acquisition. It's strong in the vertical axis and because of Snowflake's go-to-market (indistinct), it's likely going to move to the right overtime. Grafana is also prominent in the Y axis, but a glimpse at the most recent survey data shows them slightly declining while Looker actually improves a bit. As does Cloudera, which we'll move up slightly. Again, Microsoft just blows you away, doesn't it? All right, now let's get into database and data platform. Same X Y dimensions, but now database and data warehouse. Snowflake as usual takes the top spot on the vertical axis and it is actually keeps moving to the right as well with again, Microsoft and AWS is dominant in the market, as is Oracle on the X axis, albeit it's got less spending velocity, but of course it's the database king. Google is well behind on the X axis but solidly above the 40% line on the vertical axis. Note that virtually all platforms will see pressure in the next survey due to the macro environment. Microsoft might even dip below the 40% line for the first time in a while. Lastly, let's look at the collaboration and productivity software market. This is such an important area for both Microsoft and Google. And just look at Microsoft with 365 and Teams up into the right. I mean just so impressive in ubiquitous. And we've highlighted Google. It's in the pack. It certainly is a nice base with 174 N, which I can tell you that N will rise in the next survey, which is an indication that more people are adopting. But given the investment and the tech behind it and all the AI and Google's resources, you'd really like to see Google in this space above the 40% line, given the importance of this market, of this collaboration area to Google's success and the degree to which they emphasize it in their pitch. And look, this brings up something that we've talked about before on Breaking Analysis. Google doesn't have a tech problem. This is a go-to-market and marketing challenge that Google faces and it's up against two go-to-market champs and Microsoft and AWS. And Google doesn't have the enterprise sales culture. It's trying, it's making progress, but it's like that racehorse that has all the potential in the world, but it's just missing some kind of key ingredient to put it over at the top. It's always coming in third, (chuckles) but we're watching and Google's obviously, making some investments as we shared with earlier. All right. Some final thoughts on what we learned this week and in this research: customers and partners should be thrilled that both Microsoft and Google along with AWS are spending so much money on innovation and building out global platforms. This is a gift to the industry and we should be thankful frankly because it's good for business, it's good for competitiveness and future innovation as a platform that can be built upon. Now we didn't talk much about multi-cloud, we haven't even mentioned supercloud, but both Microsoft and Google have a story that resonates with customers in cross cloud capabilities, unlike AWS at this time. But we never say never when it comes to AWS. They sometimes and oftentimes surprise you. One of the other things that Sarbjeet Johal and John Furrier and I have discussed is that each of the Big 3 is positioning to their respective strengths. AWS is the best IaaS. Microsoft is building out the kind of, quote, we-make-it-easy-for-you cloud, and Google is trying to be the open data cloud with its open-source chops and excellent tech. And that puts added pressure on Snowflake, doesn't it? You know, Thomas Kurian made some comments according to CRN, something to the effect that, we are the only company that can do the data cloud thing across clouds, which again, if I'm being honest is not really accurate. Now I haven't clarified these statements with Google and often things get misquoted, but there's little question that, as AWS has done in the past with Redshift, Google is taking a page out of Snowflake, Databricks as well. A big difference in the Big 3 is that AWS doesn't have this big emphasis on the up-the-stack collaboration software that both Microsoft and Google have, and that for Microsoft and Google will drive captive IaaS consumption. AWS obviously does some of that in database, a lot of that in database, but ISVs that compete with Microsoft and Google should have a greater affinity, one would think, to AWS for competitive reasons. and the same thing could be said in security, we would think because, as I mentioned before, Microsoft competes very directly with CrowdStrike and Okta and others. One of the big thing that Sarbjeet mentioned that I want to call out here, I'd love to have your opinion. AWS specifically, but also Microsoft with Azure have successfully created what Sarbjeet calls brand distance. AWS from the Amazon Retail, and even though AWS all the time talks about Amazon X and Amazon Y is in their product portfolio, but you don't really consider it part of the retail organization 'cause it's not. Azure, same thing, has created its own identity. And it seems that Google still struggles to do that. It's still very highly linked to the sort of core of Google. Now, maybe that's by design, but for enterprise customers, there's still some potential confusion with Google, what's its intentions? How long will they continue to lose money and invest? Are they going to pull the plug like they do on so many other tools? So you know, maybe some rethinking of the marketing there and the positioning. Now we didn't talk much about ecosystem, but it's vital for any cloud player, and Google again has some work to do relative to the leaders. Which brings us to supercloud. The ecosystem and end customers are now in a position this decade to digitally transform. And we're talking here about building out their own clouds, not by putting in and building data centers and installing racks of servers and storage devices, no. Rather to build value on top of the hyperscaler gift that has been presented. And that is a mega trend that we're watching closely in theCUBE community. While there's debate about the supercloud name and so forth, there little question in our minds that the next decade of cloud will not be like the last. All right, we're going to leave it there today. Many thanks to Sarbjeet Johal, and my business partner, John Furrier, for their input to today's episode. Thanks to Alex Myerson who's on production and manages the podcast and Ken Schiffman as well. Kristen Martin and Cheryl Knight helped get the word out on social media and in our newsletters. And Rob Hof is our editor in chief over at SiliconANGLE, who does some wonderful editing. And check out SiliconANGLE, a lot of coverage on Google Cloud Next and Microsoft Ignite. Remember, all these episodes are available as podcast wherever you listen. Just search Breaking Analysis podcast. I publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. And you can always get in touch with me via email, david.vellante@siliconangle.com or you can DM me at dvellante or comment on my LinkedIn posts. And please do check out etr.ai, the best survey data in the enterprise tech business. This is Dave Vellante for the CUBE Insights, powered by ETR. Thanks for watching and we'll see you next time on Breaking Analysis. (gentle music)

>>EDR NDR, what are the differences, which one's better? Are they better together? Today's security stack contains a lot of different tools and types of data and fortunate, as you know, this creates data silos, which leads to vis visibility gaps. EDR is endpoint detection and response. It's designed to monitor and mitigate endpoint attacks, which are typically focused on computers and servers, NDR network detection, and response. On the other hand, monitors network traffic to gain visibility into potential or active cyber threats, delivering real time visibility across the broader network. One of the biggest advantages that NDR has over EDR is that bad actors can hide or manipulate endpoint data, pretty easily network data. On the other hand, much harder to manipulate because attackers and malware can avoid detection at the endpoint. NDR, as you're gonna hear is the only real source for reliable, accurate, and comprehensive data. >>All endpoints use the network to communicate, which makes your network data, the ultimate source of truth. My name is Lisa Martin, and today on the special cube presentation, Tom Binkowski senior director of product marketing at net scout, and I are gonna explore the trends and the vital reasons why relying upon EDR is not quite enough. We're also gonna share with you the growing importance of advanced NDR. Welcome to the series, the growing importance of advanced NDR in the first segment, Tom's gonna talk with me about the trends that are driving enterprise security teams to implement multiple cyber security solutions that enable greater visibility, greater protection. We're also gonna explore Gartner's concept of the security operations center, SOC visibility triad, and the three main data sources for visibility, SIM EDR and NDR in segment two, Tom. And I will talk about the role of NDR and how it overcomes the challenges of EDR as Tom's gonna discuss, as you'll hear EDR is absolutely needed, but as he will explain it, can't be solely relied upon for comprehensive cybersecurity. And then finally, we'll come back for a third and final segment to discuss why not all NDR is created equal. Tom's gonna unpack the features and the capabilities that are most important when choosing an NDR solution. Let's do this. Here comes our first segment. >>Hey, everyone kicking things off. This is segment one. I'm Lisa Martin with Tom Binowski, senior director of product marketing at nets scout. Welcome to the growing importance of advanced NDR. Tom, great to have you on the program, >>Glad to be here. >>So we're gonna be talking about the trends that are driving enterprise security teams to implement multiple cyber security solutions that really enable greater visibility and protection. And there are a number of factors that continue to expand the ECAC service for enterprise networks. I always like to think of them as kind of the spreading amorphously you shared had shared some stats with me previously, Tom, some cloud adoption stats for 2022 94% of all enterprises today use a cloud service and more than 60% of all corporate data is store in the cloud. So, Tom, what are some of the key trends that nets scout is seeing in the market with respect to this? >>Yeah, so just to continue that, you know, those stats that, that migration of workloads to the cloud is a major trend that we're seeing in that was exasperated by the pandemic, right along with working from home. Those two things are probably the most dramatic changes that we we see out there today. But along with that is also this growing sophistication of the network, you know, today, you know, your network environment, isn't a simple hub and spoke or something like that. It is a very sophisticated combination of, you know, high speed backbones, potentially up to a hundred gigabits combination with partner networks. You have, like we said, workloads up in, in private clouds, pub public clouds. So you have this hybrid cloud environment. So, and then you have applications that are multi-tiered, there are pieces and parts. And in all of that, some on your premise, some up in a private cloud, some on a public cloud, some actually pulling data off when you a customer network or potentially even a, a partner network. So really, really sophisticated environment today. And that's requiring this need for very comprehensive network visibility, not only for, for cybersecurity purposes, but also just to make sure that those applications and networks are performing as you have designed them. >>So when it comes to gaining visibility into cyber threats, I, you talked about the, the sophistication and it sounds like even the complexity of these networks, Gartner introduced the concept of the security operations, visibility triad, or the SOC visibility triad break that down for us. It consists of three main data sources, but to break those three main data sources down for us. >>Sure. So Gartner came out a few years ago where they were trying to, you know, summarize where do security operations team get visibility into threats and they put together a triad and the three sides of the trier consists of one, the SIM security information event manager, two, the endpoint or, or data that you get from EDR systems, endpoint detection, response systems. And the third side is the network or the data you get from network detection, response systems. And, you know, they didn't necessarily say one is better than the other. They're basically said that you need all three in order to have comprehensive visibility for cybersecurity purposes. >>So talk, so all, all three perspectives are needed. Talk about what each provides, what are the different perspectives on threat detection and remediation? >>Yeah. So let's start with the SIM, you know, that is a device that is gathering alerts or logs from all kinds of different devices all over your network. Be it routers servers, you know, firewalls IDs, or even from endpoint detection and network detection devices too. So it is, it is the aggregator or consumer of all those alerts. The SIM is trying to correlate those alerts across all those different data sources and, and trying to the best it can to bubble up potentially the highest priority alerts or drawing correlations and, and, and, and giving you some guidance on, Hey, here's something that we think is, is really of importance or high priority. Here's some information that we have across these disparate data sources. Now go investigate the disadvantage of the SIM is that's all it gives you is just these logs or, or, or information. It doesn't give you any further context. >>Like what happened, what is really happening at the end point? Can I get visibility into the, into the files that were potentially manipulated or the, the registry setting or what, what happened on the network? And I get visibility into the packet date or things like that. It that's, so that's where it ends. And, and that's where the, so there other two sides of the equation come in, the endpoint will give you that deeper visibility, endpoint detection response. It will look for known and or unknown threats, you know, at that endpoint, it'll give you all kinds of additional information that is occurring in endpoint, whether it be a registry setting in memory on the file, et cetera. But you know, one of, some of its disadvantages, it's really difficult because really difficult to deploy pervasive because it requires an agent and, you know, not all devices can accept an agent, but what it miss, what is lacking is the context on the network. >>So if I was an analyst and I started pursuing from my SIM, I went down to the end point and, and said, I wanna investigate this further. And I hit a, I hit a dead end from some sort, or I realize that the device that's potentially I should be alerted to, or should be concerned about is an IOT device that doesn't even have an agent on it. My next source of visibility is on the network and that's where NDR comes in. It, it sees what's traversing. The entire network provides you visibility into that from both a metadata and even a ultimately a packer perspective. And maybe, you know, could be deployed a little bit more strategically, but you know, it doesn't have the perspective of the endpoint. So you can see how each of these sort of compliments each other. And that's why, you know, Gartner said that, that you need 'em all, then they all play a role. They all have their pros and cons or advantage and disadvantages, but, you know, bringing them and using 'em together is, is the key. >>I wanna kinda dig into some of the, the EDR gaps and challenges, as you talked about as, as the things evolve and change the network, environment's becoming far more sophisticated and as well as threat actors are, and malware is. So can you crack that open more on some of the challenges that EDR is presenting? What are some of those gaps and how can organizations use other, other, other data sources to solve them? >>Yeah, sure. So, you know, again, just be clear that EDR is absolutely required, right? We, we need that, but as sort of these network environments get more complex, are you getting all kinds of new devices being put on the network that devices being brought into the network that may be, you didn't know of B Y O D devices you have, I T devices, you know, popping up potentially by the thousands in, in, in some cases when new applications or world that maybe can't accept an and endpoint detection or an EDR agent, you may have environments like ICS and skate environments that just, you can't put an endpoint agent there. However, those devices can be compromised, right? You have different environments up in the cloud or SaaS environments again, where you may not be able to deploy an endpoint agent and all that together leaves visibility gaps or gaps in, in, in the security operation triad. Right. And that is basically open door for exploitation >>Open door. Go ahead. Sorry. >>Yeah. And then, then you just have the malware and the, and the attackers getting more sophisticated. They, they have malware that can detect an EDR agent running or some anti malware agent running on device. And they'll simply avoid that and move on to the next one, or they know how to hide their tracks, you know, whether it be deleting files, registry, settings, things like that. You know, so it's, that's another challenge that, that, that just an agent faces. Another one is there are certain applications like my SQL that are, you know, have ministry administrative rights into certain parts of the windows operate system that EDR doesn't have visibility into another area that maybe EDR may not have visibility is, is, is in, you know, malware that tries to compromise, you know, hardware, especially like bios or something like that. So there's a number of challenges as sort of the whole network environment and sophistication of bad actors and malware increases. >>Ultimately, I think one of the things that, that we've learned, and, and we've heard from you in this segment, is that doing business in, in today's digital economy, demands, agility, table stakes, right? Absolutely essential corporate digital infrastructures have changed a lot in response to the dynamic environment, but its businesses are racing to the clouds. Dave Alane likes to call it the forced March to the cloud, expanding activities across this globally distributed digital ecosystem. They also sounds like need to reinvent cybersecurity to defend this continuously expanding threat surface. And for that comprehensive network, visibility is, as I think you were saying is really, really fundamental and more advanced network detection is, and responses required. Is that right? >>That's correct. You know, you know, we, we at ESCO, this is, this is where we come from. Our perspective is the network. It has been over for over 30 years. And, and we, as well as others believe that that network visibility, comprehensive network visibility is fundamental for cyber security as well as network performance and application analysis. So it, it, it's sort of a core competency or need for, for modern businesses today. >>Excellent. And hold that thought, Tom, cause in a moment, you and I are gonna be back to talk about the role of NDR and how it overcomes the challenges of EDR. You're watching the cube, the leader in enterprise tech coverage. Hey everyone, welcome back. This is segment two kicking things off I'm Lisa Martin with Tom Binkowski, senior director of product marketing at nets scout, Tom, great to have you back on the program. >>Good to be here. >>We're gonna be talking about the growing importance of advanced NDR in this series. In this segment specifically, Tom's gonna be talking about the role of NDR and how it overcomes the challenges of EDR. So Tom, one of the things that we talked about previously is one of the biggest advantages that NDR has over EDR is that bad actors can hide or manipulate endpoint data pretty easily, whereas network data, much harder to manipulate. So my question, Tom, for you is, is NDR the only real source for reliable, accurate, comprehensive data. >>I'm sure that's arguable, right? Depending on who you are as a vendor, but you know, it's, it's our, our answer is yes, NDR solutions also bring an analyst down to the packet level. And there's a saying, you know, the, the packet is the ultimate source or source of truth. A bad actor cannot manipulate a packet. Once it's on the wire, they could certainly manipulate it from their end point and then blast it out. But once it hits the wire, that's it they've lost control of it. And once it's captured by a network detection or, or network monitoring device, they can't manipulate it. They can't go into that packet store and, and manipulate those packets. So the ultimate source of truth is, is lies within that packet somewhere. >>Got you. Okay. So as you said in segment one EDR absolutely necessary, right. But you did point out it can't organizations can't solely rely on it for comprehensive cybersecurity. So Tom, talk about the benefits of, of this complimenting, this combination of EDR and NDR and, and how can that deliver more comprehensive cybersecurity for organizations? >>Yeah, so, so one of the things we talked about in the prior segment was where EDR, maybe can't be deployed and it's either on different types of devices like IOT devices, or even different environments. They have a tough time maybe in some of these public cloud environments, but that's where NDR can, can step in, especially in these public cloud environments. So I think there's a misconception out there that's difficult to get packet level or network visibility and public clouds like AWS or Azure or Google and so on. And that's absolutely not true. They have all kinds of virtual tapping capabilities that an NDR solution or network based monitoring solution could take advantage of. And one of the things that we know we spoke about before some of that growing trends of migrating workloads to the cloud, that's, what's driving that those virtual networks or virtual taps is providing visibility into the performance and security of those workloads. >>As they're migrated to public clouds, NDR can also be deployed more strategically, you know, prior segment talking about how the, in order to gain pervasive visibility with EDR, you have to deploy an agent everywhere agents can't be deployed everywhere. So what you can do with NDR is there's a lot fewer places in a network where you can strategically deploy a network based monitoring device to give you visibility into not only that north south traffic. So what's coming in and out of your network, but also the, the, the, the east west traffic too west traversing, you know, within your network environment between different points of your op your, your multi-tiered application, things like that. So that's where, you know, NDR has a, a, a little bit more advantage. So fewer points of points in the network, if you will, than everywhere on every single endpoint. And then, you know, NDR is out there continuously gathering network data. It's both either before, during, and even after a threat or an attack is, is detected. And it provides you with this network context of, of, you know, what's happening on the wire. And it does that through providing you access to, you know, layer two through layer seven metadata, or even ultimately packets, you know, the bottom line is simply that, you know, NDR is providing, as we said before, that that network context that is potentially missing or is missing in EDR. >>Can you talk a little bit about XDR that kind of sounds like a superhero name to me, but this is extended detection and response, and this is an evolution of EDR talk to us about XDR and maybe EDR NDR XDR is really delivering that comprehensive cybersecurity strategy for organizations. >>Yeah. So, you know, it's, it's interesting. I think there's a lot of confusion out there in the industry. What is, what is XDR, what is XDR versus an advanced SIM, et cetera. So in some cases, there are some folks that don't think it's just an evolution of EDR. You know, to me, XDR is taking, look at these, all these disparate data sources. So going back to our, when our first segment, we talked about the, the, the security operations center triad, and it has data from different perspectives, as we were saying, right? And XCR, to me is the, is, is trying to bring them all together. All these disparate data source sets or sources bring them together, conduct some level of analysis on that data for the analyst and potentially, you know, float to the top. The most, you know, important events are events that we, that you know, that the system deems high priority or most risky and so on. But as I, as I'm describing this, I know there are many advanced Sims out there trying to do this today too. Or they do do this today. So this there's this little area of confusion around, you know, what exactly is XDR, but really it is just trying to pull together these different sources of information and trying to help that analyst figure out, you know, what, where's the high priority event that's they should be looking at, >>Right? Getting those high priority events elevated to the top as soon as possible. One of the things that I wanted to ask you about was something that occurred in March of this year, just a couple of months ago, when the white house released a statement from president Biden regarding the nation's cyber security, it included recommendations for private companies. I think a lot of you are familiar with this, but the first set of recommendations were best practices that all organizations should already be following, right? Multifactor authentication, patching against known vulnerabilities, educating employees on the phishing attempts on how to be effective against them. And the next statement in the president's release, focus on data safety practices, also stuff that probably a lot of corporations doing encryption maintaining offline backups, but where the statement focused on proactive measures companies should take to modernize and improve their cybersecurity posture. It was vague. It was deploy modern security tools on your computers and devices to continuously look for and mitigate threats. So my question to you is how do, how do you advise organizations do that? Deploy modern security tools look for and mitigate threats, and where do the data sources, the SOC tri that we talked about NDR XDR EDR, where did they help fit into helping organizations take something that's a bit nebulous and really figure out how to become much more secure? >>Yeah, it was, it was definitely a little vague there with that, with that sentence. And also if you, if you, I think if, if you look at the sentence, deploy modern security tools on your computers and devices, right. It's missing the network as we've been talking about there, there's, there's a key, key point of, of reference that's missing from that, from that sentence. Right. But I think what they mean by deploying monitor security tools is, is really taking advantage of all these, these ways to gain visibility into, you know, the threats like we've been talking about, you're deploying advanced Sims that are pulling logs from all kinds of different security devices or, and, or servers cetera. You're, you're deploying advanced endpoint detection systems, advanced NDR systems. And so on, you're trying to use, you're trying to utilize XDR new technology to pull data from all those different sources and analyze it further. And then, you know, the other one we, we haven't even mentioned yet. It was the, so the security operation and automation, right. Response it's now, now what do we do? We've detected something, but now help me automate the response to that. And so I think that's what they mean by leveraging modern, you know, security tools and so on >>When you're in customer conversations, I imagine they're coming to, to Netscale looking for advice like what we just talked through the vagueness in that statement and the different tools that organizations can use. So when you're talking to customers and they're talking about, we need to gain visibility across our entire network, across all of our devices, from your perspective from net Scout's perspective, what does that visibility actually look like and deliver across an organization that does it well? >>Yeah, we, I mean, I think the simple way to put it is you need visibility. That is both broad and deep. And what I mean by broad is that you need visibility across your network, no matter where that network may reside, no matter what protocols it's running, what, you know, technologies is it, is it virtualized or, or legacy running in a hundred gigabits? Is it in a private cloud, a public cloud, a combination of both. So that broadness, meaning wherever that network is or whatever it's running, that's, that's what you need visibility into. It has to be able to support that environment. Absolutely. And the, the, absolutely when I, we talk about being deep it's, it has to get down to a packet level. It can't be, you know, as high as say, just looking at net flow records or something like that, that they are valuable, they have their role. However, you know, when we talk about getting deep, it has to ultimately get down to the packet level and that's, and we've said this in this time that it's ultimately that source of truth. So that, that's what that's, I think that's what we need. >>Got it. That that depth is incredibly important. Thanks so much, Tom, for talking about this in a moment, you and I are gonna be back, we're gonna be talking about why not all NDR is created equally, and Tom's gonna actually share with you some of the features and capabilities that you should be looking for when you're choosing an NDR solution. You're watching the cube, the leader in enterprise tech coverage, >>And we're clear. >>All right. >>10 45. Perfect. You guys are >>Okay. Good >>Cruising. Well, >>Welcome back everyone. This is segment three. I'm Lisa Martin with Tom gin. Kowski senior director of product marketing at nets scout. Welcome back to the growing importance of advanced NDR in this segment, Tom and I are gonna be talking about the fact that not all NDR is created equally. He's gonna impact the features, the capabilities that are most important when organizations are choosing an NDR solution. Tom, it's great to have you back on the program. >>Great, great to be here. >>So we've, we've covered a lot of content in the first two segments, but as we, as we see enterprises expanding their it infrastructure, enabling the remote workforce, which is here to stay leveraging the crowd cloud, driving innovation, the need for cybersecurity approaches and strategies that are far more robust and deep is really essential. But in response to those challenges, more and more enterprises are relying on NDR solutions that fill some of the gaps that we talked about with some of the existing tool sets in the last segment, we talked about some of the gaps in EDR solutions, how NDR resolves those. But we also know that not all NDR tools are created equally. So what, in your perspective, Tom are some of the absolutely fundamental components of NDR tools that organizations need to have for those tools to really be robust. >>Yeah. So we, we, we touched upon this a little bit in the previous segment when we talked about first and foremost, your NDR solution is providing you comprehensive network visibility that must support whatever your network environment is. And it should be in a single tool. It shouldn't have a one vendor per providing you, you know, network visibility in the cloud and another vendor providing network visibility in a local network. It should be a single NDR solution that provides you visibility across your entire network. So we also talked about it, not only does it need to be broadened like that, but also has to be deep too, eventually down to a packet level. So those are, those are sort of fundamental table stakes, but the NDR solution also must give you the ability to access a robust source of layer two or layer three metadata, and then ultimately give you access to, to packets. And then last but not least that solution must integrate into your existing cybersecurity stack. So in the prior segments, we talked a lot about, you know, the, the SIM, so that, that, that NDR solution must have the ability to integrate into that SIM or into your XDR system or even into your source system. >>Let's kind of double click on. Now, the evolution of NDR can explain some of the differences between the previous generations and advanced NDR. >>Yeah. So let's, let's start with what we consider the most fundamental difference. And that is solution must be packet based. There are other ways to get network visibility. One is using net flow and there are some NDR solutions that rely upon net flow for their source of, of, of visibility. But that's too shallow. You ultimately, you need to get deeper. You need to get down to a pack level and that's again where some, so, you know, you, you want to make sure that your NDR or advanced NDR solution is packet based. Number two, you wanna make sure that when you're pulling packets off the wire, you can do it at scale, that full line rate and in any environment, as we, as we spoke about previously, whether it be your local environment or a public cloud environment, number three, you wanna be able to do this when your traffic is encrypted. As we know a lot of, lot of not of network traffic is encrypted today. So you have the ability to have to have the ability to decrypt that traffic and then analyze it with your NDR system. >>Another, another, another one number four is, okay, I'm not just pulling packets off the wire, throwing full packets into a data storage someplace. That's gonna, you know, fill up a disc in a matter of seconds, right? You want the ability to extract a meaningful set of metadata from layer two to layer seven, the OSI model look at key metrics and conducting initial set of analysis, have the ability to index and compress that data, that metadata as well as packets on these local storage devices on, you know, so having the ability to do this packet capture at scale is really important, storing that packets and metadata locally versus up in a cloud to, you know, help with some compliance and, and confidentiality issues. And then, you know, last final least when we talk about integration into that security stack, it's multiple levels of integration. Sure. We wanna send alerts up into that SIM, but we also want the ability to, you know, work with that XDR system to, or that, that source system to drill back down into that metadata packets for further analysis. And then last but not least that piece of integration should be that there's a robust set of information that these NDR systems are pulling off the wire many times in more advanced mature organizations, you know, security teams, data scientists, et cetera. They just want access to that raw data, let them do their own analysis outside, say the user interface with the boundaries of a, of a vendor's user interface. Right? So have the ability to export that data too is really important and advance in the systems. >>Got it. So, so essentially that the, the, the breadth, the visibility across the entire infrastructure, the depth you mentioned going down to a packet level, the scale, the metadata encryption, is that what net scout means when you talk about visibility without borders? >>Yeah, exactly. You know, we, we have been doing this for over 30 years, pulling packets off of wire, converting them using patent technology to a robust set of metadata, you know, at, at full line rates up to a hundred in any network environment, any protocols, et cetera. So that, that's what we mean by that breadth. And in depth of visibility, >>Can you talk a little bit about smart detection if we say, okay, advanced NDR needs to deliver this threat intelligence, but it also needs to enable smart detection. What does net scout mean by that? >>So what you wanna make sure you have multiple methods of detection, not just a methods. So, you know, not just doing behavioral analysis or not just detecting threats based on known indicators or compromise, what you wanna wanna have multiple ways of detecting threats. It could be using statistical behavioral analysis. It could be using curated threat intelligence. It could be using, you know, open source signature engine, like from Sara COTA or other threat analytics, but to, but you also wanna make sure that you're doing this both in real time and have the ability to do it historically. So after a, a threat has been detected, for example, with another, with another product, say an EDR device, you now want the ability to drill into the data from the network that had occurred in, in, you know, prior to this. So historically you want the ability to comb through a historical set of metadata or packets with new threat intelligence that you've you've gathered today. I wanna be able to go back in time and look through with a whole new perspective, looking for something that I didn't know about, but you know, 30 days ago. So that's, that's what we, what we mean by smart detection. >>So really what organizations need is these tools that deliver a far more comprehensive approach. I wanna get into a little bit more on in integration. You talked about that in previous segments, but can you, can you give us an example of, of what you guys mean by smart integration? Is that, what does that deliver for organizations specifically? >>Yeah, we really it's three things. One will say the integration to the SIM to the security operations center and so on. So when, when an ed, when an NDR device detects something, have it send an alert to the SIM using, you know, open standards or, or, or like syslog standards, et cetera, the other direction is from the SIM or from the so, so one, you know, that SIM that, so is receiving information from many different devices that are, or detecting threats. The analyst now wants the ability to one determine if that's a true threat or not a false positive, if it is a true threat, you know, what help me with the remediation effort. So, you know, an example could be an alert comes into a SIM slash. So, and part of the playbook is to go out and grab the metadata packets associated with this alert sometime before and sometime after when that alert came in. >>So that could be part of the automation coming from the SIM slash. So, and then last one, not least is we alluded to this before is having the ability to export that robust set of layer two through layer seven metadata and or packets to a third party data lake, if you will, and where analysts more sophisticated analysts, data scientists, and so on, can do their own correlation, enrich it with their own data, combined it with other data sets and so on, do their own analysis. So it's that three layers of, of integration, if you will, that really what should be an advanced NDR system? >>All right, Tom, take this home for me. How does nets scout deliver advanced NDRs for organizations? >>We do that via solution. We call Omni the security. This is Netscout's portfolio of, of multiple different cyber security products. It all starts with the packets. You know, our core competency for the last 30 years has been to pull packets off the wire at scale, using patented technologies, for example, adapt service intelligence technologies to convert those broad packets into robust set of layer seven layer two through seven metadata. We refer to that data as smart data with that data in hand, you now have the ability to conduct multiple types of threat detection using statistical behavioral, you know, curative threat intelligence, or even open source. So rules engine, you have the ability to detect threats both in real time, as well as historically, but then a solution goes beyond just detecting threats or investigating threats has the ability to influence the blocking of threats too. So we have integrations with different firewall vendors like Palo Alto, for example, where they could take the results of our investigation and then, you know, create policies, blocking policies into firewall. >>In addition to that, we have our own Omni a E D product or our Arbor edge defense. That's, that's a product that sits in front of the firewall and protects the firewall from different types of attacks. We have integration that where you can, you can also influence policies being blocked in the a E and in last but not least, our, our solution integrates this sort of three methods of integration. As we mentioned before, with an existing security system, sending alerts to it, allowing for automation and investigation from it, and having the ability to export our data for, you know, custom analysis, you know, all of this makes that security stack that we've been talking about better, all those different tools that we have. That's that operations triads that we talked about or visibility triad, we talked about, you know, our data makes that entire triad just better and makes the overall security staff better and makes overall security just, just better too. So that, that that's our solution on the security. >>Got it. On the security. And what you've talked about did a great job. The last three segments talking about the differences between the different technologies, data sources, why the complimentary and collaborative nature of them working together is so important for that comprehensive cybersecurity. So Tom, thank you so much for sharing such great and thoughtful information and insight for the audience. >>Oh, you're welcome. Thank you. >>My pleasure. We wanna thank you for watching the program today. Remember that all these videos are available@thecube.net, and you can check out today's news on Silicon angle.com and of course, net scout.com. We also wanna thank net scout for making this program possible and sponsoring the cube. I'm Lisa Martin for Tomski. Thanks for watching and bye for now.

>>Okay, We're back at AWS Re. Invent. You're watching the >>cubes. Continuous coverage >>coverage. This is Day four. I think it's the first time it reinvent. We've done four days. This is our ninth year covering Reinvent. Tom Miller is here is the senior vice president of Alliances. And he's joined by Anchor Jane. Who's the global cloud? Practically practise lead at Merkel. Guys, good to see you. Thanks for coming on. Thank you, Tom. Tell us about Merkel. For those who might not be familiar with you. >>So Merkel is a customer experience management company. That is, um, under the Dentsu umbrella. Dense. Who is a global media agency? We represent one of the pillars which is global, our customer experience management. And they also have media and creative. And what Merkel does is provide that technology to help bring that creative and media together. They're a tech company. Yes. >>Okay, so there's some big big tail winds, changes, trends going on in the market. Obviously the pandemic. You know, the force marched to digital. Uh, there's regulation. What are some of the big waves that you guys are seeing that you're trying to ride? >>So what we're seeing is, uh we've got, uh, as a start. We've got a lot of existing databases with clients that are on Prem that we manage today within a sequel environment or so forth. And they need to move that to a cloud environment to be more flexible, more agile, provide them with more data to be able to follow that customer experience that they want with their clients, that they're all realising they need to be in a digital environment. And so that's a big push for us working with AWS and helping move our clients into that cloud environments. >>And you're relatively new to the ws world, right? Maybe you can talk >>about that anchor actually, as a partner. We may be new, but Merkel works with AWS has been working with AWS for over five years as a customer as a customer. So what we did was last year we formalise the relationship with us to be, uh, an advanced partner now. So we were part of the restock programme, basically which is a pool of very select partners. And Merkel comes in with the specialisation of marketing. So as Tom said, you know, we're part of, uh Dentsu umbrella are our core focuses on customer experience, transformation and how we do that Customer experience. Transformation is through digital transformation, data transformation. And that's where we see AWS being a very good partner to us to modernise the solutions that Martin can take to the market. >>So your on Prem databases is probably a lot of diversity on a lot of technical that when the cloud more agility, infinite resources do you have a tech stack? Are you more of an integrator? Right tool for the right job? Maybe you could describe >>your I can take that what time just described. So let me give you some perspective on what these databases are. These databases are essentially Markle, helping big brands 1400 Fortune 500 brands to organise their marketing ecosystem, especially Martek ecosystem. So these databases, they house customer touchpoints customer customer data from disparate sources, and they basically integrate that data in one central place and then bolt on analytics, data science, artificial intelligence, machine learning on top of it, helping them with those email campaigns or direct mail campaigns, social campaigns. So that's what these databases are all about, and and these databases currently set on Prem on Merkel's own data centre. And we have a huge opportunity to kind of take those databases and modernise them. Give all these ai ml type of capabilities advanced analytic capabilities to our customers by using AWS is the platform to kind of migrate. And you do that as a service. We do that as a service. >>Strategically, you're sort of transforming your business to help your customers transform their business right? Take away. It's it's classic. I mean, you really it's happening. This theme of, you know a W started with taking away the undifferentiated heavy lifting for infrastructure. Now you're seeing NASDAQ. Goldman Sachs. You guys in the media world essentially building your own clouds, right? That's the strategy. Yes, super clouds. We call >>them Super Cloud. Yeah, it's about helping our clients understand What is it they're trying to accomplish? And for the most part, they're trying to understand the customer journey where the customer is, how they're driving that experience with them and understanding that experience through the journey and doing that in the cloud makes it tremendously easier and more economical form. >>I was listening to the, uh, snowflake earnings call from last night and they were talking about, you know, a couple of big verticals, one being media and all. I keep talking about direct direct to consumer, right? You're hearing that a lot of media companies want to interact and build community directly. They don't want to necessarily. I mean, you don't want to go through a third party anymore if you don't have to, Technology is enabling that is that kind of the play here? >>Yes, Director Consumer is a huge player. Companies which were traditionally brick and mortar based or relied on a supply chain of dealers and distributors are now basically transforming themselves to be direct to consumer. They want to sell directly to the consumer. Personalisation comes becomes a big theme, especially indeed to see type of environment, because now those customers are expecting brands to know what's there like. What's their dislike? Which products which services are they interested in? So that's that's all kind of advanced analytics machine learning powered solutions. These are big data problems that all these brands are kind of trying to solve. That's where Merkel is partnering with AWS to bring all those technologies and and build those next generation solutions for access. So what kind >>of initiatives are you working >>on? So there are, like, 34 areas that we are working very closely with AWS number one. I would say Think about our marketers friend, you know, and they have a transformation like direct to consumer on the channel e commerce, these types of capabilities in mind. But they don't know where to start. What tools? What technologies will be part of that ecosystem. That's where Merkel provides consulting services to to give them a road map, give them recommendations on how to structure these big, large strategic initiatives. That's number one we are doing in partnership with AWS to reach out to our joint customers and help them transform those ecosystems. Number two as Tom mentioned migrations, helping chief data officers, chief technology officers, chief marketing officers modernise their environment by migrating them to cloud number three. Merkel has a solution called mercury, which is essentially all about customer identity. How do we identify a customer across multiple channels? We are Modernising all that solution of making that available on AWS marketplace for customers to actually easily use that solution. And number four, I would say, is helping them set up data foundation. That's through intelligent marketing Data Lake leveraging AWS technologies like blue, red shift and and actually modernise their data platforms. And number four is more around clean rooms, which is bring on your first party data. Join it with Amazon data to see how those customers are behaving when they are making a purchase on amazon dot com, which gives insights to these brands to reshape their marketing strategy to those customers. So those are like four or five focus areas. So I was >>gonna ask you about the data and the data strategy like, who owns the data? You're kind of alchemists that your clients have first party data and you might recommend bringing in other data sources. And you're sort of creating this new cocktail. Who owns the data? >>Well, ultimately, client also data because that that's their customers' data. Uh, to your point on, we helped them enrich that data by bringing in third party data, which is what we call is. So Merkel has a service called data source, which is essentially a collection of data that we acquire about customers. Their likes, their dislikes, their buying power, their interests so we monetise all that data. And the idea is to take those data assets and make them available on AWS data exchange so that it becomes very easy for brands to use their first party data. Take this third party data from Merkel and then, uh, segment their customers much more intelligently. >>And the CMO is your sort of ideal customer profile. >>Yeah, CMO is our main customer profile and we'll work with the chief data officer Will work with the chief technology officer. We kind of we bridge both sides. We can go technology and marketing and bring them both together. So you have a CMO who's trying to solve for some type of issue. And you have a chief technology officer who wants to improve their infrastructure. And we know how to bring them together into a conversation and help both parties get both get what they want. >>And I suppose the chief digital officer fits in there too. Yeah, he fits in their CDOs. Chief Digital officer CMO. Sometimes they're all they're one and the same. Other times they're mixed. I've seen see IOS and and CDOs together. Sure, you sort of. It's all data. It's all >>day. >>Yeah, some of the roles that come into play, as as Tom mentioned. And you mentioned C I o c T. O s chief information officer, chief technology officer, chief data officer, more from the side. And then we have the CMOS chief digital officers from the marketing side. So the secret sauce that Merkel brings to the table is that we know the language, what I t speaks and what business speaks. So when we talk about the business initiatives like direct to consumer Omni Channel E commerce, those are more business driven initiatives. That's where Merkel comes in to kind of help them with our expertise over the last 30 years on on how to run these strategic initiatives. And then at the same time, how do we translate translate those strategic initiatives into it transformation because it does require a lot of idea transformation to happen underneath. That's where AWS also helps us. So we kind of span across both sides of the horizon. >>So you got data. You've got tools, you've got software. You've got expertise that now you're making that available as a as a service. That's right. How far are you into that? journey of satisfying your business. >>Well, the cloud journey started almost, I would say, 5 to 7 years ago at Merkel, >>where you started, where you began leveraging the cloud. That's right. And then the light bulb went off >>the cloud again. We use clouds in multiple aspects, from general computing perspective, leveraging fully managed services that AWS offers. So that's one aspect, which is to bring in data from disparate sources, house it, analyse it and and derive intelligence. The second piece on the cloud side is, uh, SAS, offering software as a service offerings like Adobe Salesforce and other CDP platforms. So Merkel covers a huge spectrum. When it comes to cloud and you got >>a combination, you have a consulting business and also >>so Merkel has multiple service lines. Consulting business is one of them where we can help them on how to approach these transformational initiatives and give them blueprints and roadmaps and strategy. Then we can also help them understand what the customer strategy should be, so that they can market very intelligently to their end customers. Then we have a technology business, which is all about leveraging cloud and advanced analytics. Then we have data business that data assets that I was talking about, that we monetise. We have promotions and loyalty. We have media, so we recover multiple services portfolio. >>How do you mentioned analytics a couple times? How do you tie that? Back to the to the to the sales function. I would imagine your your clients are increasingly asking for analytics so they can manage their dashboards and and make sure they're above the line. How is that evolving? Yes, >>So that's a very important line because, you know, data is data, right? You bring in the data, but what you do with the data, how you know, how you ask questions and how you derive intelligence from it? Because that's the actionable part. So a few areas I'll give you one or two examples on how those analytics kind of come into picture. Let's imagine a brand which is trying to sell a particular product or a particular service to the to a set of customers Now who those set of customers are, You know where they should target this, who their target customers are, what the demographics are that's all done through and analytics and what I gave you is a very simple example. There are so many advanced examples, you know, that come into artificial intelligence machine learning those type of aspects as well. So analytics definitely play a huge role on how these brands need to sell and personalised the offerings that they're going to offer to. The customers >>used to be really pure art, right? It's really >>not anymore. It's all data driven. Moneyball. Moneyball? >>Yes, exactly. Exactly. Maybe still a little bit of hard in there, right? It doesn't hurt. It doesn't hurt to have a little creative flair still, but you've got to go with the data. >>That's where the expertise comes in, right? That's where the experience comes in and how you take that science and combine it with the art to present it to the end customer. That's exactly you know. It's a combination, >>and we also take the time to educate our clients on how we're doing it. So it's not done in a black box, so they can learn and grow themselves where they may end up developing their own group to handle it, as opposed to outsourcing with Merkel, >>teach them how to fish. Last question. Where do you see this in 2 to 3 years. Where do you want to take it? >>I think future is Cloud AWS being the market leader. I think aws has a huge role to play. Um, we are very excited to be partners with AWS. I think it's a match made in heaven. AWS cells in, uh, majority of the sales happen in our focus is marketing. I think if we can bring both the worlds together, I think that would be a very powerful story for us to be >>good news for AWS. They little your DNA can rub off on them would be good, guys. Thanks so much for coming to the Cube. Thank you. All right. Thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Volonte for the Cube Day four aws re invent. Were the Cube the global leader in high tech coverage? Right back. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm.

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 sponsored by Intel and AWS. Yeah, welcome to the Cubes Live coverage of AWS reinvent 2020. I'm Lisa Martin and I have a Cube alumni joining me Next. Aaron Kelly, the GM of product marketing at AWS Aaron. Welcome back to the program. >>Thanks, Lisa. It's great to be here. >>Likewise, even though we don't get to all be crammed into Las Vegas together, uh, excited to talk to you about Amazon Connect, talk to our audience about what that is. And then let's talk about it in terms of how it's been a big facilitator during this interesting year, that is 2020. >>Great, yes, for sure. So Amazon Connect is a cloud contact center where we're really looking to really reinvent how contact centers work by bringing it into the cloud. It's an Omni Channel, easy to use contact center that allows customers to spin up contact centers in minutes instead of months. Its very scalable so can scale to 10 tens of thousands of agents. But it also scaled down when you when it's not in use and because it's got a pay as you go business model. You only pay when you're engaging with collars or customers. You're not paying for high upfront per agent fees every month. So it's really been a great service during this pandemic, as there's been a lot of unpredictable spikes in demand, uh, that customers have had to deal with across many sectors, >>and we've been talking for months now about the acceleration that Corbett has delivered with respect to digital transformation. And, of course, as patients has been wearing fin globally. I think with everybody when we're calling a contact center, we want a resolution quickly. And of course, as we all know is we all in any industry are working from home. So are they. So I can imagine during this time that being able to have a cloud contact center has been transformative, I guess, to help some businesses keep the lights on. But now to really be successful moving forward, knowing that they can operate and scale up or down as things change. >>Yeah, that's exactly right. And so one of the key benefits of connect his ability to very quickly on board and get started, you know, we have some very interesting and examples like Morrisons, which is a retailer in the UK They wanted to create a new service as you highlighted, which was a door, you know, doorstep delivery service. And so they needed to spin up a quick new contact center in order to handle those orders. They were able to do it and move all their agents remotely in about a day and be able to immediately start to take those orders, which is really powerful, you know. Another interesting example is the Rhode Island Department of Labor and Training. Which part of their responsibility is to deliver unemployment benefits for their citizens? Obviously a huge surge of demand there they were able to build an entirely new context center in about nine days to support their citizens. They went from a knave ridge of about 74 call volume sort of capacity per minute to 1000 call on capacity per minute. And in the first day of standing up this new context center, they were able to serve 75,000 Rhode Island citizens with their unemployment benefits. So really ah, great example of having that cloud scalability that ability to bring agents remotely and then helping citizens in need during a very, very difficult time, >>right? So a lot of uses private sector, public sector. What are some of the new capabilities of Amazon connected? You're announcing at reinvent. >>Yeah, So we announced five big capabilities this during reinvent yesterday that really spanned the entire experience, and our goal is to make it better for agents so they're more efficient. That actually helps customers reduce their costs but also create a better collar experience so that C sat could go up in the collars, can get what they need quickly and then move on. And so the first capability is Amazon Connect Voice I D, which makes it easier to validate that the person calling is who in fact, they say they are so in this case, Lee. So let's say you're calling in. You can opt in tow, have a voice print made of you. The next time you call in, we're able to use machine learning to match that voiceprint to know. Yes, it is Lisa. I don't need to ask Lisa questions about her mother's maiden name and Social Security number. We can validate you quickly as an agent I'm confident it's you. So I'm less concerned about things like fraud, and we can move on. That's the first great new feature. The second is Amazon Connect customer profiles. So now, once you join the call rather than me is an agent having to click around a different systems and find out your order history, etcetera. I could get that all surface to me directly. So I have that context. I can create a more personalized experience and move faster through the call. The third one is called Wisdom. It's Amazon Connect wisdom, which now based on either what you're asking me or a search that I might make, I could get answers to your questions. Push to me using machine learning. So if you may be asking about a refund policy or the next time a new product may launch, I may not know rather than clicking around and sort of finding that in the different systems is pushed right to me. Um, now the Fourth Feet feature is really time capability of contact lens for Amazon connect, and what this does is while you were having our conversation, it measures the sentiment based on what you're saying or any keywords. So let's say you called it and said, I want a refund or I want to cancel That keyword will trigger a new alert to my supervisor who can see that this call may be going in the wrong direction. Let me go help Aaron with Lisa. Maybe there's a special offer I can provide or extra assistance so I can help turn that call around and create a great customer experience, which right now it feels like it's not going in that direction. And then the last one is, um, Amazon Connect tasks where about half of an agents time is spent on task other than the call follow up items. So you're looking for a refund or you want me Thio to ship you a new version of the product or something? Well, today I might write that on a sticky note or send myself a reminder and email. It's not very tracked very well. With Amazon Connect task, I can create that task for me as a supervisor. I could then X signed those tax and I can make sure that the follow up items air prioritized. And then when I look at my work. You is an agent. I can see both calls, my chats and my task, which allows me to be more efficient. That allows me to follow up faster with you. My customer, Andi. Overall, it's gonna help lower the cost and efficiency of the Contact Center. So we're really excited about all five of these features and how they improve the entire life cycle of a customer contact. >>And that could be table stakes for any business in terms of customer satisfaction. You talked about that, but I always say, You know, customer satisfaction is inextricably linked to employee satisfaction. They need. The agents need to be empowered with that information and really time, but also to be able to look at. I want them to know why I'm calling. They should already know what I have. We have that growing expectation right as a consumer. So the agent experience the customer experience. You've also really streamline. And I could just see this being something that is like I said, kind of table stakes for an organization to reduce churn, to be able to service more customers in a shorter amount of time and also employee satisfaction, right, >>right that's that. That's exactly right. Trader Grills, which is one of our, you know, beta customers using some of these capabilities. You know, they're saying 25% faster, handle times so shorter calls and a 10% increase in customer satisfaction because now it's personalized. When you call in, I know what grill you purchased. And so I have a sense based on the grill, you purchase just what your question might be or what you know, what special offers I might have available to me and that's all pushed to me is an agent, So I feel more empowered. I could give you better service. You have, you know, greater loyalty towards my brand, which is a win for everyone, >>absolutely that empowerment of the agent, that personalization for the customer. I think again we have that growing demanded expectation that you should know why I'm calling, and you should be able to solve my problem. If you can't, I'm gonna turn and find somebody else who can do that. That's a huge risk that businesses face. Let's talk about some of the trends that you're seeing that this has been a very interesting year to say the least, what are some of the trends in the context center space that you guys were seeing that you're working Thio to help facilitate? >>Yeah, absolutely. So I think one of the biggest trends that we're seeing is this move towards remote work. So as you can imagine, with the pandemic almost immediately, most customers needed to quickly move their agents to remote work scenario. And this is where Amazon Connect was a great benefit. For as I mentioned before, we saw about 5000 new contact centers created in March in April. Um, Atiya, very beginning of the pandemic. So that was a very, uh, that's a very big trend we're seeing. And now what we're seeing is customers were saying, Hey, when I have something like Amazon Connect that's in the cloud, it scales up. It provides me a great experience. I just need really a headset in a Internet connection from my agents. I'm not dealing with VPNs and, ah, lot of the complexity that comes with trying to move on on premises system remote. We're seeing a huge, you know, search of adoption and usage around that the ability to very quickly create a new context center around specific scenarios are use cases has been really, really powerful. So, uh, those are the big trends moving to remote remote work and a trend towards, um, spinning of new context that is quickly and then spending them back down as that demand moves or or those those those situations move >>right. And as we're all experiencing, the one thing that is a given during this time is the uncertainty that remains Skilling up. Skilling down volume changes. But looking as if a lot of what's currently going on from home is going to stay for a while longer, I actually not think about it. I'm calling into whether it's, you know, cable service or whatnot. I think What about agent is actually on their couch at home like I am working? And so I think it's being able to facilitate that because is transformative, and I think I think I'll step out on limbs side, you know, very potentially impact the winners and the losers of tomorrow, making sure that the consumer experience is tailored. It's personalized to your point and that the agents are empowered in real time to facilitate a seamless and fast resolution of whatever the issue is. >>Well, and I think you hit on it earlier as well. Agents wanna be helpful. They wanna solve a customer problem. They wanna have that information at their fingertips. They wanna be on power to take action. Because at the end of their day, they want to feel like they helped people, right? And so being able to give them that information safe from wisdom or being able to see your entire customer profile, Right? Right. When you come on board or know that you are Lisa, um, and have the confidence that I'm talking to Lisa, I'm not. This is not some sort of, you know, fishing, exercise, exercise. These are all really important scenarios and features that empower the agent, lowers cost significantly for the customer and creates a much better customer experience for you. The collar? >>Absolutely. And we all know how important that is these days to get some sort of satisfying experience. Last question. Erin, talk to us about, you know, as we all look forward, Thio 2021. For many reasons. What can we expect with Amazon? Connect? >>Well, we're going to continue to listen to our customers and hear their feedback and what they need, which what we certainly anticipate is continued focus on that agent efficiency, giving agents mawr of the information they need to be successful and answer customers questions quickly, continuing to invest in machine learning as a way of doing that. So using ML to identify that you are who you say you are, finding that right information. Getting data that I can use is an agent Thio. Handle those tasks and then automate the things that you know I really shouldn't have to take steps is a human to go do so if we need to send you a follow up email when when your product ships or when your refund is issued. Let me just put that in the system once and have it happened when it executes. So that level of automation continuing to bring machine learning in to make the agent experience better and more efficient, which ultimate leads to lower costs and better see set. These are all the investments. You'll see a sui continue for it next year. >>Excellent stuff, Erin, thank you so much for joining me on the program today, ensuring what's next and the potential the impact that Amazon connect is making. >>Thanks, Lisa. It's great to be here >>for Aaron Kelly. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the cubes. Live coverage of AWS reinvent 2020.

>>on the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 sponsored by Intel, AWS and our community partners. Hello and welcome back to the Cubes Live coverage Cube live here in Palo Alto, California, with the Virtual Cube this year because we can't be there in person. I'm your host, John Fairy year. We're kicking off Day two of the three weeks of reinvent a lot of great leadership sessions to review, obviously still buzzing from the Andy Jassy three. Our keynote, which had so many storylines, is really hard to impact. We're gonna dig that into into into that today with Jerry Chan, who has been a Cube alumni since the beginning of our AWS coverage. Going back to 2013, Jerry was wandering the hallways as a um, in between. You were in between vm ware and V C. And then we saw you there. You've been on the Cube every year at reinvent with us. So special commentary from you. Thanks for coming on. >>Hey, John, Thanks for having me and a belated happy birthday as well. If everyone out there John's birthday was yesterday. So and hardest. Howard's working man in technology he spent his entire birthday doing live coverage of Amazon re events. Happy birthday, buddy. >>Well, I love my work. I love doing this. And reinvent is the biggest event of the year because it really is. It's become a bellwether and eso super excited to have you on. We've had great conversations by looking back at our conversations over the Thanksgiving weekend. Jerry, the stuff we were talking about it was very proposed that Jassy is leaning in with this whole messaging around change and horizontal scalability. He didn't really say that, but he was saying you could disrupt in these industries and still use machine learning. This was some of the early conversations we were having on the Cube. Now fast forward, more mainstream than ever before. So big, big part of the theme there. >>Yeah, it z you Amazon reinvent Amazon evolution to your point, right, because it's both reinventing what countries are using with the cloud. But also what Amazon's done is is they're evolving year after year with their services. So they start a simple infrastructure, you know, s three and e c. Two. And now they're building basically a lot of what Andy said you actually deconstructed crm? Ah, lot of stuff they're doing around the call centers, almost going after Salesforce with kind of a deconstructed CRM services, which is super interesting. But the day you know, Amazon announces all those technologies, not to mention the AI stuff, the seminar stuff you have slack and inquired by Salesforce for $27.7 billion. So ah, lot of stuff going on in the cloud world these days, and it's funny part of it, >>you know, it really is interesting. You look up the slack acquisition by, um, by Salesforce. It's interesting, you know, That kind of takes slack out of the play here. I mean, they were doing really well again. Message board service turns into, um, or collaboration software. They hit the mainstream. They have great revenue. Is that going to really change the landscape of the industry for Salesforce? They've got to acquire it. It opens the door up from, or innovation. And it's funny you mention the contact Center because I was pressing Jassy on my exclusive one on one with him. Like they said, Andy, my my daughter and my sons, they don't use the phone. They're not gonna call. What's this? Is it a call center deal? And he goes, No, it's the It's about the contact. So think about that notion of the contact. It's not about the call center. It's the point of contact. Okay, Linked in is with Microsoft. You got slack and Salesforce Contact driven collaboration. Interesting kind of play for Microsoft to use voice and their data. What's your take on that? >>I think it's, um you know, I have this framework. As you know, I talked my friend systems of engagement over systems intelligence and systems record. Right? And so you could argue voice email slack because we're all different systems of engagement, and they sit on top of system of record like CRM customer support ticketing HR. Something like that. Now what sells first did by buying slack is they now own a system engagement, right? Not on Lee is slack. A system engagement for CRM, but also system engagement for E. R. P Service. Now is how you interact with a bunch of applications. And so if you think about sales for strategy in the space, compete against Marcus Soft or serves now or other large AARP's now they own slack of system engagement, that super powerful way to actually compete against rival SAS companies. Because if you own the layer engagement layer, you can now just intermediate what's in the background. Likewise, the context center its own voice. Email, chat messaging, right? You can just inter mediate this stuff in the back, and so they're trying to own the system engagement. And then, likewise, Facebook just bought that company customer a week ago for a billion dollars, which also Omni Channel support because it is chat messaging voice. It's again the system engagement between End User, which could be a customer or could be employees. >>You know, this really gonna make Cit's enterprise has been so much fun over the past 10 years, I gotta say, in the past five, you know, it's been even more fun, has become or the new fun area, you know, And the impact to enterprise has been interesting because and we're talking about just engaging system of record. This is now the new challenge for the enterprise. So I wanna get your thoughts, Jerry, because how you see the Sea, X O's and CSOs and the architects out there trying to reinvent the enterprise. Jassy saying Look and find the truth. Be on the right side of history here. Certainly he's got himself service interest there, but there is a true band eight with Cove it and with digital acceleration for the enterprise to change. Um, given all these new opportunities Thio, revolutionize or disrupt or radically improve, what's the C. C X's do? What's your take on? How do you see that? >>It's increasingly messy for the CXS, and I don't I don't envy them, right? Because back in the day they kind of controlled all the I t spend and kind of they had a standard of what technologies they use in the company. And then along came Amazon in cloud all of sudden, like your developers and Dio Hey, let me swipe my credit card and I'm gonna access to a bunch of a P I s around computing stories. Likewise. Now they could swipe the credit card and you strike for billing, right? There's a whole bunch of services now, so it becomes incumbent upon CSOs. They need Thio new set of management tools, right? So not only just like, um, security tools they need, they need also observe ability, tools, understanding what services are being used by the customers, when and how. And I would say the following John like CSOs is both a challenge for them. But I think if I was a C X, so I'll be pretty excited because now I have a bunch of other weapons and other bunch of services I could offer. My end users, my developers, my employees, my customers and, you know it's exciting for them is not only could they do different things, but they also changed how their business being done. And so I think both interact with their end users. Be a chat like slack or be a phone like a contact center or instagram for your for your for your kids. It's actually a new challenge if I were sick. So it's it's time to build again, you know, I think Cove it has said it is time to build again. You can build >>to kind of take that phrase from the movie Shawshank Redemption. Get busy building or get busy dying. Kinda rephrase it there. And that's kind of the theme I'm seeing here because covert kind of forced people saying, Look, this things like work at home. Who would have thought 100% people would be working at home? Who would have thought that now the workloads gonna change differently? So it's an opportunity to deconstruct or distant intermediate these services. And I think, you know, in all the trends that I've seen over my career, it's been those inflection points where breaking the monolith or breaking the proprietary piece of it has always been an opportunity for for entrepreneur. So you know, and and for companies, whether you're CEO or startup by decomposing and you can come in and create value E I think to me, snowflake going public on the back of Amazon. Basically, this is interesting. I mean, so you don't have to be. You could kill one feature and nail it and go big. >>I think we talked to the past like it's Amazon or Google or Microsoft Gonna win. Everything is winner take all winner take most, and you could argue that it's hard to find oxygen as a start up in a broad platform play. But we think Snowflake and other companies have done and comes like mongo DB, for example, elastic have shown that if you can pick a service or a problem space and either developed like I p. That's super deep or own developer audience. You can actually fight the big guys. The Big Three cloud vendors be Amazon, Google or or market soft in different markets. And I think if you're a startup founder, you should not be afraid of competing with the big cloud vendors because there there are success patterns and how you can win and you know and create a lot of value. So I have found Investor. I'm super excited by that because, you know, I don't think you're gonna find a company takedown Amazon completely because they're just the scale and the network effects is too large. But you can create a lot of value and build Valuable comes like snowflake in and around the Amazon. Google Microsoft Ecosystem. >>Yeah, I want to get your thoughts. You have one portfolio we've covered rock rock set, which does a lot of sequel. Um, one of your investments. Interesting part of the Kino yesterday was Andy Jassy kind of going after Microsoft saying Windows sequel server um, they're targeting that with this new, uh, tool, but, you know, sucks in the database of it is called the Babel Fish for Aurora for post Chris sequel. Um, well, how was your take on that? I mean, obviously Microsoft big. Their enterprise sales tactics are looking like more like Oracle, which he was kind of hinting at and commenting on. But sequel is Lingua Franca for data >>correct. I think we went to, like, kind of a no sequel phase, which was kind of a trendy thing for a while and that no sequel still around, not only sequel like mongo DB Document TV. Kind of that interface still holds true, but your point. The world speaks sequel. All your applications be sequel, right? So if you want backwards, compatibility to your applications speaks equal. If you want your tire installed base of employees that no sequel, we gotta speak sequel. So, Rock said, when the first public conversations about what they're building was on on the key with you and Me and vent hat, the founder. And what Rock said is doing their building real time. Snowflake Thio, Lack of better term. It's a real time sequel database in the cloud that's super elastic, just like Snowflake is. But unlike snowflake, which is a data warehouse mostly for dashboards and analytics. Rock set is like millisecond queries for real time applications, and so think of them is the evolution of where cloud databases air going is not only elastic like snowflake in the cloud like Snowflake. We're talking 10 15 millisecond queries versus one or two second queries, and I think what any Jassy did and Amazon with bowel officials say, Hey, Sequels, Legal frank of the cloud. There's a large installed base of sequel server developers out there and applications, and we're gonna use Babel fish to kind of move those applications from on premise the cloud or from old workload to the new workloads. And, I think, the name of the game. For for cloud vendors across the board, big and small startups thio Google markets, often Amazon is how do you reduce friction like, How do you reduce friction to try a new service to get your data in the cloud to move your data from one place to the next? And so you know, Amazon is trying to reduce friction by using Babel fish, and I think it is a great move by them. >>Yeah, by the way. Not only is it for Aurora Post Chris equal, they're also open sourcing it. So that's gonna be something that is gonna be interesting to play out. Because once they open source it essentially, that's an escape valve for locking. I mean, if you're a Microsoft customer, I mean, it ultimately is. Could be that Gateway drug. It's like it is ultimately like, Hey, if you don't like the licensing, come here. Now there's gonna be some questions on the translations. Um, Vince, um, scuttlebutt about that. But we'll see it's open source. We'll see what goes on. Um great stuff on on rocks that great. Great. Start up next. Next, uh, talk track I wanna get with you is You know, over the years, you know, we've talked about your history. We're gonna vm Where, uh, now being a venture capitalist. Successful, wanted Greylock. You've seen the waves, and I would call it the two ways pre cloud Early days of cloud. And now, with co vid, we're kind of in the, you know, not just born in the cloud Total cloud scale cloud operations. This is kind of what jazz he was going after. E think I tweeted Cloud is eating the world and on premise and the edges. What it's hungry for. It kind of goof on mark injuries since quote a software eating the world. This is where it's going. So it's a whole another chapter coming. You saw the pre cloud you saw Cloud. Now we've got basically global I t everything else >>It's cloud only I would say, You know, we saw pre cloud right the VM ware days and before that he called like, you know, data centers. I would say Amazon lawns of what, 6 4007, the Web services. So the past 14 15 years have been what I've been calling cloud transition, right? And so you had cos technologies that were either doing on migration from on premise and cloud or hybrid on premise off premise. And now you're seeing a generation of technologies and companies. Their cloud only John to your point. And so you could argue that this 15 year transitions were like, you know, Thio use a bad metaphor like amphibians. You're half in the water, half on land, you know, And like, you know, you're not You're not purely cloud. You're not purely on premise, but you can do both ways, and that's great. That's great, because that's a that's a dominant architecture today. But come just like rock set and snowflake, your cloud only right? They're born in the cloud, they're built on the cloud And now we're seeing a generation Startups and technology companies that are cloud only. And so, you know, unlike you have this transitionary evolution of like amphibians, land and sea. Now we have ah, no mammals, whatever that are Onley in the cloud Onley on land. And because of that, you can take advantage of a whole different set of constraints that are their cloud. Only that could build different services that you can't have going backwards. And so I think for 2021 forward, we're going to see a bunch of companies or cloud only, and they're gonna look very, very different than the previous set of companies the past 15 years. And as an investor, as you covering as analysts, is gonna be super interesting to see the difference. And if anything, the cloud only companies will accelerate the move of I t spending the move of mawr developers to the cloud because the cloud only technologies are gonna be so much more compelling than than the amphibians, if you will. >>Yeah, insisting to see your point. And you saw the news announcement had a ton of news, a ton of stage making right calls, kind of the democratization layer. We'll look at some of the insights that Amazon's getting just as the monster that they are in terms of size. The scope of what? Their observation spaces. They're seeing all these workloads. They have the Dev Ops guru. They launched that Dev Ops Guru thing I found interesting. They got data acquisition, right? So when you think about these new the new data paradigm with cloud on Lee, it opens up new things. Um, new patterns. Um, S o. I think I think to me. I think that's to me. I see where this notion of agility moves to a whole nother level, where it's it's not just moving fast, it's new capabilities. So how do you How do you see that happening? Because this is where I think the new generation is gonna come in and be like servers. Lambs. I like you guys actually provisioned E c. Two instances before I was servers on data centers. Now you got ec2. What? Lambda. So you're starting to see smaller compute? Um, new learnings, All these historical data insights feeding into the development process and to the application. >>I think it's interesting. So I think if you really want to take the next evolution, how do you make the cloud programmable for everybody? Right. And I think you mentioned stage maker machine learning data scientists, the sage maker user. The data scientists, for example, does not on provisioned containers and, you know, kodama files and understand communities, right? Like just like the developed today. Don't wanna rack servers like Oh, my God, Jerry, you had Iraq servers and data center and install VM ware. The generation beyond us doesn't want to think about the underlying infrastructure. You wanna think about it? How do you just program my app and program? The cloud writ large. And so I think where you can see going forward is two things. One people who call themselves developers. That definition has expanded the past 10, 15 years. It's on Lee growing, so everyone is gonna be developed right now from your white collar knowledge worker to your hard core infrastructure developer. But the populist developers expanding especially around machine learning and kind of the sage maker audience, for sure. And then what's gonna happen is, ah, law. This audience doesn't want to care about the stuff you just mentioned, John in terms of the online plumbing. So what Amazon Google on Azure will do is make that stuff easy, right? Or a starved could make it easy. And I think that the move towards land and services that moved specifically that don't think about the underlying plumbing. We're gonna make it easy for you. Just program your app and then either a startup, well, abstract away, all the all the underlying, um, infrastructure bits or the big three cloud vendors to say, you know, all this stuff would do in a serverless fashion. So I think serverless as, ah paradigm and have, quite frankly, a battlefront for the Big Three clouds and for startups is probably one in the front lines of the next generation. Whoever owns this kind of program will cloud model programming the Internet program. The cloud will be maybe the next platform the next 10 or 15 years. I still have two up for grabs. >>Yeah, I think that is so insightful. I think that's worth calling out. I think that's gonna be a multi year, um, effort. I mean, look at just how containers now, with ks anywhere and you've got the container Service of control plane built in, you got, you know, real time analytics coming in from rock set. And Amazon. You have pinned Pandora Panorama appliance that does machine learning and computer vision with sensors. I mean, this is just a whole new level of purpose built stuff software powered software operated. So you have this notion of Dev ops going to hand in the glove software and operations? Kind of. How do you operate this stuff? So I think the whole new next question was Okay, this is all great. But Amazon's always had this problem. It's just so hard. Like there's so much good stuff. Like, who do you hired operate it? It is not yet programmable. This has been a big problem for them. Your thoughts on that, >>um e think that the data illusion around Dev ops etcetera is the solution. So also that you're gonna have information from Amazon from startups. They're gonna automate a bunch of the operations. And so, you know, I'm involved to come to Kronos Fear that we talked about the past team kind of uber the Bilson called m three. That's basically next generation data dog. Next generation of visibility platform. They're gonna collect all the data from the applications. And once they have their your data, they're gonna know how to operate and automate scaling up, scaling down and the basic remediation for you. So you're going to see a bunch of tools, take the information from running your application infrastructure and automate exactly how to scale and manager your app. And so AI and machine learning where large John is gonna be, say, make a lot of plumbing go away or maybe not completely, but lets you scale better. So you, as a single system admin are used. A single SRE site reliability engineer can scale and manage a bigger application, and it's all gonna be around automation and and to your point, you said earlier, if you have the data, that's a powerful situations. Once have the data can build models on it and can start building solutions on the data. And so I think What happens is when Bill this program of cloud for for your, you know, broad development population automating all this stuff becomes important. So that's why I say service or this, You know, automation of infrastructure is the next battleground for the cloud because whoever does that for you is gonna be your virtualized back and virtualized data center virtualized SRE. And if whoever owns that, it's gonna be a very, very strategic position. >>Yeah, it's great stuff. This is back to the theme of this notion of virtualization is now gone beyond server virtualization. It's, you know, media virtualization with the Cube. My big joke here with the Q virtual. But it's to your point. It's everything can now be replicated in software and scale the cloud scale. So it's super big opportunity for entrepreneurs and companies. Thio, pivot and differentiate. Uh, the question I have for you next is on that thread Huge edge discussion going on, right. So, you know, I think I said it two years ago or three years ago. The data center is just a edges just a big fat edge. Jassy kind of said that in his keynote Hey, looks at that is just a Nedum point with his from his standpoint. But you have data center. You have re alleges you've got five G with wavelength. This local zone concept, which is, you know, Amazon in these metro areas reminds me the old wireless point of presence kind of vibe. And then you've got just purpose built devices like cameras and factory. So huge industrial innovation, robotics, meet software. I mean, whole huge edge development exploding, Which what's your view of this? And how do you look at that from? Is an investor in industry, >>I think edges both the opportunity for start ups and companies as well as a threat to Amazon, right to the reason why they have outposts and all the stuff the edges if you think about, you know, decentralizing your application and moving into the eggs from my wearable to my home to my car to my my city block edges access Super interesting. And so a couple things. One companies like Cloudflare Fastly company I'm involved with called Kato Networks that does. SAS is secure access service edge write their names and the edges In the category definition sassy is about How do you like get compute to the edge securely for your developers, for your customers, for your workers, for end users and what you know comes like Cloudflare and Kate have done is they built out a network of pops across the world, their their own infrastructure So they're not dependent upon. You know, the big cloud providers, the telco providers, you know, they're partnering with Big Cloud, their parting with the telcos. But they have their own kind of system, our own kind of platform to get to the edge. And so companies like Kato Networks in Cloud Player that have, ah, presence on the edge and their own infrastructure more or less, I think, are gonna be in a strategic position. And so Kate was seen benefits in the past year of Of of Cove it and locked down because more remote access more developers, Um, I think edge is gonna be a super great area development going forward. I think if you're Amazon, you're pushing to the edge aggressively without post. I think you're a developer startup. You know, creating your own infrastructure and riding this edge wave could be a great way to build a moat against a big cloud guy. So I'm super excited. You think edge in this whole idea of your own infrastructure. Like what Kato has done, it is gonna be super useful going forward. And you're going to see more and more companies. Um, spend the money to try to copy kind of, ah, Cloudflare Kato presence around the world. Because once you own your own kind of, um, infrastructure instead of pops and you're less depend upon them a cloud provider, you're you're in a good position because there's the Amazon outage last week and I think like twilio and a bunch of services went down for for a few hours. If you own your own set of pops, your independent that it is actually really, really secure >>if you and if they go down to the it's on you. But that was the kinesis outage that they had, uh, they before Thanksgiving. Um, yeah, that that's a problem. So on this on. So I guess the question for you on that is that Is it better to partner with Amazon or try to get a position on the edge? Have them either by you or computer, create value or coexist? How do you see that that strategy move. Do you coexist? Do you play with them? >>E think you have to co exist? I think that the partner coexist, right? I think like all things you compete with Amazon. Amazon is so broad that will be part of Amazon and you're gonna compete with and that's that's fair game, you know, like so Snowflake competes against red shift, but they also part of Amazon's. They're running Amazon. So I think if you're a startup trying to find the edge, you have to coexist in Amazon because they're so big. Big cloud, right, The Big three cloud Amazon, Google, Azure. They're not going anywhere. So if you're a startup founder, you definitely coexist. Leverage the good things of cloud. But then you gotta invest in your own edge. Both both figure early what? Your edge and literally the edge. Right. And I think you know you complement your edge presence be it the home, the car, the city block, the zip code with, you know, using Amazon strategically because Amazon is gonna help you get two different countries, different regions. You know you can't build a company without touching Amazon in some form of fashion these days. But if you're a star found or doing strategically, how use Amazon and picking how you differentiate is gonna be key. And if the differentiation might be small, John. But it could be super valuable, right? So maybe only 10 or 15%. But that could be ah Holton of value that you're building on top of it. >>Yeah, and there's a little bit of growth hack to with Amazon if you you know how it works. If you compete directly against the core building blocks like a C two has three, you're gonna get killed, right? They're gonna kill you if the the white space is interest. In the old days in Microsoft, you had a white space. They give it to you or they would roll you over and level you out. Amazon. If you're a customer and you're in a white space and do better than them, they're cool with that. They're like, basically like, Hey, if you could innovate on behalf of the customer, they let you do that as long as you have a big bill. Yeah. Snowflakes paying a lot of money to Amazon. Sure, but they also are doing a good job. So again, Amazon has been very clear on that. If you do a better job than us for, the customer will do it. But if they want Amazon Red Shift, they want Amazon Onley. They can choose that eso kind of the playbook. >>I think it is absolutely right, John is it sets from any jassy and that the Amazon culture of the customer comes first, right? And so whatever is best for the customer that's like their their mission statement. So whatever they do, they do for the customer. And if you build value for the customer and you're on top of Amazon, they'll be happy. You might compete with some Amazon services, which, no, the GM of that business may not be happy, but overall. Net Net. Amazon's getting a share of those dollars that you're that you're charging the customer getting a share of the value you're creating. They're happy, right? Because you know what? The line rising tide floats all the boats. So the Mork cloud usage is gonna only benefit the Big Three cloud providers Amazon, particularly because they're the biggest of the three. But more and more dollars go the cloud. If you're helping move more. Absolute cloud helping build more solutions in the cloud. Amazon is gonna be happy because they know that regardless of what you're doing, you will get a fraction of those dollars. Now, the key for a startup founder and what I'm looking for is how do we get mawr than you know? A sliver of the dollars. How to get a bigger slice of the pie, if you will. So I think edge and surveillance or two areas I'm thinking about because I think there are two areas where you can actually invest, own some I p owned some surface area and capture more of the value, um, to use a startup founder and, you know, are built last t to Amazon. >>Yeah. Great. Great thesis. Jerry has always been great. You've been with the Cube since the beginning on our first reinvented 2013. Um, and so we're now on our eighth year. Great to see your success. Great investment. You make your world class investor to great firm Greylock. Um great to have you on from your perspective. Final take on this year. What's your view of Jackie's keynote? Just in general, What's the vibe. What's the quick, um, soundbite >>from you? First, I'm so impressed and you can do you feel like a three Archy? No more or less by himself. Right then, that is, that is, um, that's a one man show, and I'm All of that is I don't think I could pull that off. Number one. Number two It's, um, the ability to for for Amazon to execute at so many different levels of stack from semiconductors. Right there, there there ai chips to high level services around healthcare solutions and legit solutions. It's amazing. So I would say both. I'm impressed by Amazon's ability. Thio go so broad up and down the stack. But also, I think the theme from From From Andy Jassy is like It's just acceleration. It's, you know now that we will have things unique to the cloud, and that could be just a I chips unique to the cloud or the services that are cloud only you're going to see a tipping point. We saw acceleration in the past 15 years, John. He called like this cloud transition. But you know, I think you know, we're talking about 2021 beyond you'll see a tipping point where now you can only get certain things in the cloud. Right? And that could be the underlying inference. Instances are training instances, the Amazons giving. So all of a sudden you as a founder or developer, says, Look, I guess so much more in the cloud there's there's no reason for me to do this hybrid thing. You know, Khyber is not gonna go away on Prem is not going away. But for sure. We're going to see, uh, increasing celebration off cloud only services. Um, our edge only services or things. They're only on functions that serve like serverless. That'll be defined the next 10 years of compute. And so that for you and I was gonna be a space and watch >>Jerry Chen always pleasure. Great insight. Great to have you on the Cube again. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >>Congrats to you guys in the Cube. Seven years growing. It's amazing to see all the content put on. So you think it isn't? Just Last point is you see the growth of the curve growth curves of the cloud. I'd be curious Johnson, The growth curve of the cube content You know, I would say you guys are also going exponential as well. So super impressed with what you guys have dealt. Congratulations. >>Thank you so much. Cute. Virtual. We've been virtualized. Virtualization is coming here, or Cubans were not in person this year because of the pandemic. But we'll be hybrid soon as events come back. I'm John for a year. Host for AWS reinvent coverage with the Cube. Thanks for watching. Stay tuned for more coverage all day. Next three weeks. Stay with us from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of aws reinvent 2020 sponsored by Intel >>and AWS. Welcome back here to our coverage here on the Cube of AWS.

(gentle music) >> From the cube studios in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is a Cube conversation. >> With Snowflake's, enormously successful IPO, it's clear that data warehousing in the cloud has come of age and a few companies know more about data and analytics than Google. Hi, I'm Paul Gillen. This is a cube conversation. And today we're going to talk about data warehousing and data analytics in the cloud. Google BigQuery, of course, is a popular, fully managed server less data warehouse that enables rapid SQL queries and interactive analysis of massive data sets. This summer, Google previewed BigQuery Omni, which essentially brings the capabilities of BigQuery to additional platforms including Amazon web services and soon Microsoft Azure. It's all part of Google's multicloud strategy. No one knows more about this strategy than Debanjan Saha, General Manager and Vice President of engineering for data analytics and Google cloud. And he joins me today. Debanjan, thanks so much for joining me. >> Paul, nice to meet you and thank you for having me today. >> So it's clear the data warehousing is now part of many enterprise data strategies. How has the rise of cloud change the way organizations are using data science in your view? >> Well, I mean, you know, the cloud definitely is a big enabler of data warehousing and data science, as you mentioned. I mean, it has enabled things that people couldn't do on-prem, for example, if you think about data science, the key ingredient of data science, before you can start anything is access to data and you need massive amount of data in order to build the right model that you want to use. And this was a big problem on-prem because people are always thinking about what data to keep, what to discard. That's not an issue in cloud. You can keep as much of data as you want, and that has been a big boon for data science. And it's not only your data, you can also have access to other data your, for example, your partner's data, public data sets and many other things that people have access to right? That's number one, number two of course, it's a very compute intensive operation and you know, large enterprises of course can afford them build a large data center and bring in lots of tens of thousands of CPU codes, GPU codes, TPU codes whatever have you, but it is difficult especially for smaller enterprises to have access to that amount of computing power which is very very important for data science. Cloud makes it easy. I mean, you know, it has in many ways democratize the use of data science and not only the big enterprises everyone can take advantage of the power of the computing power that various different cloud vendors make it available on their platform. And the third, not to overlook that, cloud also makes it available to customers and users, lots of various different data science platform, for example, Google's own TensorFlow and you have many other platforms Spark being one example of that, right? Both a cloud native platform as well as open source platforms, which is very very useful for people using data science and managed to open source, Spark also makes it very very affordable. And all of these things have contributed to massive boon in data science in the cloud and from my perspective. >> Now, of course we've seen over the last seven months a rush to the cloud triggered by the COVID-19 pandemic. How has that played out in the analytics field? Do you see any longterm changes to, to the landscape? The way customers are using analytics as a result of what's happened these last seven months? >> You know, I think as you know about kind of a digitization of our business is happening over a long period of time, right? And people are using AIML analytics in increasing numbers. What I've seen because of COVID-19 that trend has accelerated both in terms of people moving to cloud, and in terms of they're using advanced analytics and AIML and they have to do that, right? Pretty much every business is kind of leaning heavily on their data infrastructure in order to gain insight of what's coming next. A lot of the models that people are used to, is no longer valid things are changing very very rapidly right? So in order to survive and thrive people have to lean on data, lean on analytics to figure out what's coming around the corner. And that trend in my view is only going to accelerate. It's not going to go the other way round. >> One of the problems with cloud databases, We often hear complaints about is that there's so many of them. Do you see any resolution to that proliferation? >> Well, you know, I do think a one size does not fit all right. So it is important to have choice. It's important to have specialization. And that's why you see a lot of cloud databases. I don't think the number of cloud databases is going to go down. What I do expect to happen. People are going to use interoperable data formats. They are going to use open API so that it's very, very portable as people want to move from one database to another. The way I think the convergence is going to come is two ways, One, you know, a lot of databases, for example, use Federation. If you look at BigQuery, for example, you can start with BigQuery, but with BigQuery, you can have also access to data in other databases, not only in GCP or Google cloud but also in AWS with BigQuery Omni, for example, right? So that provides a layer of Federation, which kind of create convergence with respect, to weighing various different data assets people may have. I have also seen with, for example, with Looker, you know creation of enterprise wide data models and data API is gives people a platform so that they can build their custom data app and data solutions on top up and even from data API. Those I believe are going to be the points of convergence. I think data is probably going to be in different databases because different databases do different things well, that does not mean people wouldn't have access to all their data through one API or one set of models. >> Well, since we're on the subject of BigQuery. Now this summer, you introduced BigQuery Omni which is a database data warehouse, essentially a version of BigQuery that can query data in other cloud platforms, what, what is the strategy there? And what is the customer reaction been so far? >> Well, I mean, you know as you probably have seen talking to customers more than 80% of the customers that we talk to use multiple clouds and that trend is probably not going to change. I mean, it happens for various different reasons sometime because of compliance sometimes because they want to have different tools and different platform sometime because of M and a, we are a big believer of multi-cloud strategy and that's what we are trying to do with BigQuery Omni. We do realize people have choices. Customers will have their data in various different places and we will take our analytics wherever the data is. So customers won't have to worry about moving data from one place to another., and that's what we are trying to do with BigQuery Omni you know, going to see, you know for example, with Anthos, we have created a platform over which you can build this video as different data stacks and applications, which spans multiple clouds. I believe we are going to see more of that. And BigQuery Omni is just the beginning. >> And how have your customers reacted to that announcement. >> Oh deep! They reacted very, very positively. This is the first time they have a major cloud vendor offering a fully managed server less data warehouse platform on multiple clouds. And as I mentioned, I mean we have many customers who have some of their data assets for example, in GCP, they really love BigQuery. And they also have for example, applications running on AWS and Azure. And today the only option they have is to essentially shuttle their data between various different clouds in order to gain insight across the collective pool of data sets that they have, with BigQuery, Omni, they all tended to do that. They can keep their data wherever it is. They can still join across that data and get insights irrespective of which cloud their data is. >> You recently wrote on Forbes about the shortage of data scientists and the need to make data analytics more accessible to the average business user. What is Google doing in that respect? >> So we strongly, I mean, you know one of our goals is to make the data and insight from data available to everybody in the business right? That is the way you can democratize the use of analytics and AIML. And you know, one way to do that is to teach everybody R or Python or some specific tools but that's going to take a long time. So our approach is make the power of data analytics and AI AML available to our users, no matter what tools they're comfortable with. So for example, if you look at a B Q ML BigQuery ML, we have made it possible for our users who like SQL very much to use the power of ML without having to learn anything else or without having to move their data anywhere else. We have a lot of business users for example, who prefer X prefer spreadsheets and, you know, we've connected sheets. We have made the spreadsheet interface available on top of BigQuery, and they can use the power of BigQuery without having to learn anything else. Better yet we recently launched a BigQuery Q and A. And what Q and A allows you to do is to use natural language on top of big query data, right? So the goal, I mean, if you can do that that I think is the Nevada where people, anyone for example, somebody working in a call center talking to a customer can use a simple query to figure out what's going on with the bill, for example, right? And we believe that if we can democratize the use of data, insight and analytics that not only going to accelerate the digital transformation of the businesses, it's also going to grow consumption. And that's good for both the users, as well as business. >> Now you bought Looker last year, what would you say is different about the way Google is coming out the data analytics market from the way other cloud vendors are doing it. >> So Looker is a great addition to already strong portfolio of products that we have but you know, a lot of people think about Looker as a business intelligence platform. It's actually much more than that. What is unique about Looker is the semantic model that Looker can build on top of data assets, govern semantic model Looker can build on top of data assets, which may be in BigQuery maybe in cloud SQL maybe, you know, in other cloud for example, in Redshift or SQL data warehouse. And once you have the data model, you can create a data API and essentially an ID or integrated development environment on top of which you can build your custom workflows. You can build your custom dashboard you can build your custom data application. And that is, I think, where we are moving. I don't think people want the old dashboards anymore. They want their data experience to be immersive within the workflow and within the context in which they are using the data. And that's where I see Lot of customers are now using the power of Looker and BigQuery and other platform that we have and building this custom data apps. And what again, like BigQuery, Looker is also multi-platform it supports multiple data warehouses and databases and that kind of aligns very well with our philosophy of having an open platform that is multicloud as well as hybrid. >> Certainly, with Anthos and with BigQuery Omni, you demonstrated your commitment on P cloud, but not all cloud vendors have an interest in being multicloud. Do you see any, any change that standoff and are you really in a position to influence it? >> Absolutely. I think more than us it's a customer who is going to influence that, right? And almost every customer I talk to, they don't want to be in a walled garden. They want to be an open platform where they have the choice they have the flexibility and I believe these customers are going to push essentially the adoption of platforms, which are open and multicloud. And, you know, I believe over time the successful platforms have to be open platform. And the closed platform if you look at history has never been very successful, right? And you know, I sincerely think that we are on the right path and we are on the side of customers in this philosophy. >> Final question. What's your most important priority right now? >> You know, I wake up everyday thinking about how can you make our customer successful? And the best way to make our customer successful is to make sure that they can get business outcome out of the data that they have. And that's what we are trying to do. We want to accelerate time to value to data, you know, so that people can keep their data in a governed way. They can gain insight by using the tools that we can provide them. A lot of them, we have used internally for many years and those tools are now available to our customers. We also believe we need to democratize the use of analytics and AIML. And that's why we are trying to give customers tools where they don't have to learn a lot of new things and new skills in order to use them. And if we can do them successfully I think we are going to help our customers get more value out of their data and create businesses which can use that value. I'll give you a couple of quick examples. I mean, for example, if you look at Home Depot, they use our platform to improve the predictability of the inventory by two X. If you look at, for example HSBC, they have been able to use our platform to detect financial fraud 10 X faster. If you look at, for example Juan Perez, who's the CIO of UPS, they have used our AIML and analytics to do better logistics and route planning. And they have been able to save 10 million gallons of fuel every year which amounts to 400 million in cost savings. Those are the kind of business outcome we would like to drive with the power of our platform. >> Powerful stuff, democratize data multicloud data in any cloud who can argue with that. Debanjan Saha, General Manager and Vice President of engineering for data analytics at Google cloud. Thanks so much for joining me today. >> Paul, thank you thank you for inviting me. >> I'm Paul Gillen. This has been a cube conversation. >> Debanjan: Thank you. (soft music)

>> Announcer: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is theCUBE Conversation. >> Hello everyone, welcome to this CUBE Conversation, I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE I'm in the Palo Alto CUBE Studios here with the quarantine crew, doing the remote interviews during this time of COVID. Of course, we want to check in with all of our great esteemed guests and CUBE alumni. We're here with Jerry Chen, partner at Greylock. Jerry, great to see you, it's been a while. Hope you're sheltering in place, nice camera, nice set up you got there at home, thanks for coming on. >> Thanks, John. I set up all the cameras are just for you. Everybody needs their quarantine hobbies, and for me, I kind of dust off the audio visual playbook and set this up, just for theCUBE interviews. But it's good to see you. Glad you and the family are healthy and sane as well. >> Yeah, and same to you. Let's just jump into it, obviously, COVID-19 has caused the virtualization trend, virtual everything. You're no stranger to virtualization, and VMware back in the day really changed the game on server virtualization, but the whole world's becoming virtual. And it's very interesting because now people are feeling, but we in the industry have been talking about inside the ropes for a long time, which is, the future is there, it's going to be about interactions online, software, cloud scale, these things just got accelerated, and the disruption, the change of behavior, Zoom fatigue, Webexing, all this stuff that's happening, people are kind of like, "Wow! This is the future." This is a real impact, and it's mainstream, everyone's feeling about business, to personal, your thoughts? >> Yeah, I think Satya Nadella at Microsoft had this quote recently that they've seen two decade's worth of digital acceleration and transformation in just two months, and I think what we've seen the past four months, John is all the kind of first order effects of virtualization events, not just infrastructure, but like virtualization meetings and people, telemedicine, telehealth, online education, delivery of food, all those trends are just accelerated. We're buying stuff on eCommerce, and Amazon, and Instacart before hand, that's just accelerated. We're moving towards virtualized events, online education, online healthcare, that's just accelerated. So I think we're seeing the first order effects of changing not only how we work, how we communicate, but how we shop, interact, and socialize, it compress two decades within two, three months. And so I think that's changing both how you and I interact and how we build relationships, also how companies interact with their customers, and how companies interact with employees. and it's been exciting time, because one, when there's disruption, there's opportunity, but two is giving guys like you and me a chance to kind of dust off or try new skills, and you and I are both figuring out how to exist and thrive in this role where we're now interacting in this virtualized world. >> And it's still the same game personal relationships. Content is now data. This is stuff that we've been preaching on theCUBE. You've been on many times talking about, I going to get your thoughts as a venture capitalist, whether you're making bets on the future for investments, you have a 10 year horizon, and roughly speaking average on VC deals, enterprises and customers who are building a cloud and data centers, they got to make new bets or double down on stuff they've been doing, or cancel stuff that they had going on, and refactoring. So I want to to get your thoughts on one, first on the VC side, how have you guys refactored your thinking, your meetings, and your bets? >> Yeah, so I would say, three areas, one is how we operate as a VC firm what's changed? Number two, I'll talk about what we're investing in what's good or bad, and thirdly is like, what I think changes for our portfolio companies and how startups think. So first and foremost obviously, we've gone all virtual too, with shelter-in-place, our entire team is now working remotely, working from home, but we're still open for business and we're looking to find new investments, we are investing aggressively right now, and we're just doing things over Zoom. And so we're either A, doing video calls as a partnership, or doing video calls with startups that we're meeting and founders, but I'll be honest, one thing I've done John, is I've turned off the screen more or less, I've done more phone calls because I find that a video call is great for the first or second meeting, but with a founder or executive you have relationship with, it's just really nice to actually, go on a virtual walk where me and the founder of both put AirPods or take the phone to walk outside and kind of have a conversation, that's a little of a higher bandwidth. So, I think how we're operating has changed a little bit, but to your point, is the same business, connecting with a person one-on-one, reading the market, reading the founder, and making a bet. So that hasn't changed. I think on the stuff we're investing in, like you said, all the trends around cloud and APIs and SaaS, that's accelerated. So all the trends around the new workplace, SaaS companies, collaboration, going cloud that's accelerated faster, so some of our companies like Cato Networks that does software defined, wide area networks plus cloud security that just accelerated there in this market called secure access serves edge. We've seen kind of a nice tailwind from that, more and more data is going to cloud so companies like Rockset, that's a database company that you had on theCUBE, they're going to see a benefit from that because more and more data is now in the cloud. Then finally for the founders we work with, the way to go to market, the way to sell like no one's flying around selling one-on-one anymore, you're not meeting a CSO, or the CIO over steak dinner, or you're not going to a conference anymore. So a lot of our companies are figuring out how to do more online sales, bottoms ups adoption, that could be an API, that could be open source, we're trying to find a couple more of our line of business entry to the company and sell that way, versus go to a conference or for one-on-one meeting. So it's interesting, everything's moved faster, but then this slight curve ball on how you connect with your customer has changed. And so what's the Darwin line, it's not the strongest that survives, but the most adaptable. So we're seeing the companies that founders that are most adaptable right now, they're going to thrive. >> It's interesting, we've always talked about from a tech standpoint with DevOps and cloud-native, integration or horizontally scalable has been that ethos of value creation, you've talked about moats in the past, but now it's more real life, is becoming immersed into software, and so I want to get your thoughts on this, and we have a phrase here in theCUBE team is that, every company will become a media company, that's something that we believe in, and you starting to see that people are doing more Zooms, doing more digital events, you mentioned some of the other things. Can you see any other examples where a company has to become blank? Because media is just one element of the new realities of life, right? You got to broadcast, and you got to share your stories and formats, that's media, is there other areas we're seeing, that things that weren't on the radar before with COVID, where companies have to become something like, every company will be blank? Fill in the blank. >> I would say, it's trite to say one, one, was every company is a data company, people have been saying that for a while, that's more true than ever. Number two, I'll be honest, every company now is a healthcare company, right? Because be it in health insurance for employees, the current pandemic is making the reality of both physical health, and emotional health, and mental health key for employees. And so if that was a top cost factor for hiring employees, this could be even more important going forward that every company is a health care company. And thirdly, like you said, every company becomes media company, I would say every company is also either one or two things, they're a Fintech company, because every company is now going online with their content. They wanting to create a one-to-one commercial relationship with a customer, right? That could be ads, could be transaction, could be selling something, so you're now doing business directly with your customer, so every company is a Fintech company, and I would say every company's now also, like you said, content company, right? It's the media creating, but also the data you're taking, the value you add on top of the data you're creating, and then how you share that back to your customer. So you as an enterprise company or a consumer company, you collect data from users, you're to use that data to improve your product, and this could be a SaaS offering, this could be an application, but then take that data through real time analytics, then make your product better and so because of that, if you're a data company, real time data, like our database company mentioned earlier, Rockset becomes more important. If you're a Fintech company, so all things around payments or commercial banking and relationship with your customer make sense. And if a you're a healthcare company because all your employees are now caring about healthcare, just thinking about how to make communication of healthcare with employees a lot more efficient, and a part of the reason why to work for theCUBE and work for a startup is important, so I think those three things are top of mind for all employees and all employers. I think things could change the next six or nine months, but right now I see those three being front and center. >> It's interesting. I wonder if you can add real estate company to that because if you look at the work from home, it's dynamic. >> Yeah >> I had a friend who was a fellow dad with my son's lacrosse team, he lives in Los Gatos, he's been involved in Google, Tesla, building up their facilities, and he had an interesting guest post on SiliconANGLE, and he was saying, it's not just give them some extra pay for their internet access, companies got to rethink the facilities question, right? Because do you pay rent for your employees? Do you provide the VPN, beyond VPN security, for instance? So again, you start to see these new opportunities or challenges, open up new thinking, this is going to be a wave of opportunity. >> Well, that virtualization between work and home has now been blurred like you said earlier, John and so if you're a technology company that enables remote access or distribute access, like Cato Networks when the portfolio comes and Greylock around our road office, home office, that is now how to right? So I had this conversation with Jason of Austin, askSpoke, one of our companies, there's like a mass of hierarchy for working out, and at the base of the mass of hierarchy is like good internet access, right? That's the how to, you need security, right? Because if you don't have secure access, you can't work, and then you have information management, knowledge management, how to communicate, right? And then collaboration, so, you have now this new hierarchy of what is required you to work in this new world, but also the tools and the technologies, be it secured access service edge like CATO or IT Helpdesk for all employees like askSpoke, both of those things become dial tone for any remote work. Just like videoconferencing, we couldn't do this in the same way, 10, 15 years ago, that's become kind of a must have, and so I think it'd be fascinating how we went from the office world where I gave you a laptop, or a computer, or a desk to this home office world, where maybe you now I have to pay for my fancy camera setup and my VPN. >> Well certainly you're getting good ROI on your setup and sure Greylock will take care of that plenty of dough big, billions of dollars under management. And by the way, must have hire things in our houses, ping and internet access, so we fight for that ping time, I got 12 I'm like what's going on? Who's gaming? We have to get the kids off of Twitch, and whatnot. but in all seriousness, this is what the reality is. So now for the average person out there, there's a lot of discussion around mental health, you mentioned taking it off the video conferencing and going for a walk, or just talking on the phone, this speaks to the humanization aspect of what's going on, mental health, social interaction, we're social creatures, collaboration has to be re-imagined. What's your view on all this? >> I think absolutely, look, humans are social creatures by nature, and I think part of the reason why I had this conversation with my founders early during COVID-19, that it's both a healthcare crisis. It's an economic crisis with all the million and millions of people unemployed, but it's also an emotional crisis because one, we're not connected to family, friends, and loved ones, and we're sheltering home with either ourselves or just a handful of people. And so we're trying to figure out ways to like, recreate social connections, and that's a phone call, it's a video call, it's Zoom dinners, it's Zoom dinners, the Zoom parties, is key. I think, going on socially just in walks is another thing to kind of like, play and experience things together. But my two cents is if you're a startup, right now, it can help connect people work-wise or socially, that's just going to be super critical for the new experience. And I think people are discovering new ways to use technology, so Zoom was never meant to be used the way it is today, I think that's amazing. I think how people think about voice video, and email, and chat are changing as well. So I'll finding new ways to like, play games online with my nieces, or communicate with them. And I think as an employer in these companies, like HR software, and how you like manage, and coach, and lead your employees is going to change as well. And so, you have this world where we're all in one building, and think about how you as a CEO, or as a leader now can actually coach, develop, and enable your employees across the world. >> I want to get your thoughts on cloud, we've had many conversations around cloud computing as to rise of AWS, I remember one it was a big Twitter conversation, I think about last year where what enabled Amazon and I think one of the things that came out of it was virtualization enabled them to have all these different servers. What do you see coming out of this virtualization of our lives with the COVID-19, as people start to figure out beyond the triage of stabilization, and as they get foundationally set up in COVID, coming out of it, companies and people have to have a growth strategy, whether it's life or business, people want to come out of this on the upside, whether it's emotional or with their business, what do you see being enabled? What needs to be in place? What kind of scale? What kind of environment? Because this is where I think the entrepreneurs are really going to sharpen their energy on their creativities looking at the expectations and experience needed coming out of this, it may look completely different than what we were talking about a year ago. What's your thoughts? >> Well, I think individually, people can use this time to prove their skills in different ways. So I think as an employee, as CEO, as a founder, you take the time to like invest in new skills, and that could be, "Hey, how do our community collaborate and manage my team remotely?" So I think CEOs and founders that can understand how to motivate, educate, train their employees in this new world, well, those are skills going forward. So communication has always been a great skill John, for any leader, any founder, it's 10X more important in this new virtualized work role, communication, motivation, and leading people over remote work is going to be a new skill that people have. Managing remote teams, managing fully distributed teams or half distributed, half headquarters, so understanding how to organize and lead your team in this kind of half in the office half out of the office role, that's going to be a challenge as well. So any tools, technology and tips there, but I think in terms of the founders that can now hire employees, find customers, sell customers, and manage a distributed team, those three things in this new world, even post COVID-19, we're not going back to the way we were, so the ability to actually use skills around email, creating content, Slack, Zoom, video chat, online conferences, what was that? "Video Killed the Radio Star", the first MTV Video. So, COVID-19, and Zoom, and video collaboration, what's that do to the old skills or the old founders? And what do they enable? So just like TV replaced radio as a medium, and now this virtualized world is going to replace kind of the medium we had beforehand, so, there'll be new generation of founders and investors coming out of this generation that would be for the next 10, 15 years, and I'm excited to be part of that. >> Yeah, and it's super big opportunity, because you have these kind of medium changes, new protocols get developed, new responsibilities and roles emerge, value creation capture, equations change, right? So you're looking at things like online events, for instance, they don't happen anymore, and even when they do come back they'll probably be hybrid anyway. So you got virtual, hybrid, public it sounds like a cloud play to me, public events, hybrid events, and private events, I guess. >> Yeah, virtual private events, but the same thing holds, just like cloud internet increased the reach, right? So all of a sudden, you can reach a bigger audience than just radio, TV, or the newspaper. Now you have these virtualized events like say private events, public events, hybrid events, you as a company or a media property, like theCUBE can now reach a larger audience, right? It's global, you don't have to be there in person, you're going to have the remote audience as a first class citizen, now more than ever, it's just like the internet replacing newspaper and print, people really care about print and newspaper, but really the reach online is always a magnitude larger than print, so all of a sudden you thought more about the print, so the online audience more than print audience. So now going forward, you're going to think about the virtual audience that's remote versus the physical audience. And so you're going to have to create experiences that are their world class or both properties. So just like the cloud, you think about the big three cloud providers, private cloud, as a technology company, you think about all three venues, all three infrastructures as a first class citizen. It's not going to be all one cloud, it's not all going to be one note, if you will. So it forces everyone to think, not just kind of one path, but multiple paths, so like classic problems a lot of founders think, okay, I'm going to do an enterprise private cloud strategy only or I'm going to do a cloud only SaaS strategy. Now founders of this do both the same time, I got to address the private cloud on premise business at the same time as the cloud business, and not just one cloud, three or four clouds around the world. So it forces founders to be able to do more things at one time and the ability for a company to attack multiple venues or multiple territories at the same time, they'll be successful. And the days where I can just do one cloud or one venue, or one audience, those are gone, and so, folks like yourself, John, and what you've built here at theCUBE with everyone else, they can reach multiple audiences at the same time, that's going to be very powerful. >> And we're going to be marketing and doing a lot more online events, like you said, it's going to be easier to tap into our 7000 plus alumni to get people together to create great content. And again, content value to remote audience is interesting. So that shifts into the conversation that everyone talks about the remote worker. Well, what about the remote customer, the remote prospects? So this is going to change how companies have to be change of behaviors. And it's going to be driven by developers, because it's not like one app can solve it, 'cause you got to integrate, you got to have some integration points. So this is the question, are we moving away from that monolithic SaaS app? Or is it going to be some SaaS apps that need to integrate with others? Will there be an abstraction layer of innovation around? Because at the end of the day, these new workloads and new apps going to be built. If you're going to run an event, if I'm a SAP or a big company, I'm not going to rely or may not want to rely on a vendor. In fact, the CEO of SAP said, 'cause their site crashed for their event, "I'm not going to rely on a third party to run my business event." 'Cause their business model is the event, not just a supplier selection for a SaaS app. So interesting kind of new surge of online activity might tip the scales for the supplier side. >> I think you're right John, I think because now the, just like the IT technology is now your business, you're going to basically do one or two things, one, vet the IT technology provider that much higher or harder. But number two to your point, I think the way you sell and you reach companies is going to be through developers and yes, you're going to have these large monolithic SaaS apps before, but almost every SaaS app now has APIs for integration, and so to your point, is that integration and the ability to have multiple companies work together, and share data, and collaborate, that's going to be more important. And so really at Greylock and myself, I've been investing in developer-led technologies and developer-led adoption, or API, or open source-led adoption, for seven plus years now. And the truth of matter is, that's going to be even more powerful going forward. Nassim Taleb would say that's anti-fragile, right? So having one giant app is fragile, but having a bunch of small apps, or a bunch of APIs, or a bunch of developers using your open source technology, or using your API technology to build an application, that's anti-fragile, because at the end of the day, that's going to be more reliable for your customer than a single point of failure, which can be one giant application. So all the big apps like Salesforce, have now other platforms, right? They have APIs, they have extensibility, they understand that there's a long fat tail of solutions needed to build. And all the new startups are doing open source, or API-led adoption 'cause they understand that the fastest route to create value for the customer, is also the most robust technology stack that a customer can build upon. I think that's super insightful, in fact, that is, I think so compelling, because if you think about it, that's the formula for great investments from a startup standpoint. But now, because of COVID, you said, everything's been pulled forward and accelerated at the same time, there's a collision, not all the enterprises are that strong, they're not that developer-led. So I think, to the point about acceleration, now, the enterprises, and we've seen pockets of this with cybersecurity where they have their own, in-house teams doing a variety of different development. The customers have to be developer-led, because that's where the value is, so they have to have a supplier with the right stack and integration frameworks. Now, the customers who haven't really been developer-led, have to be developer-led, what's your take on that? >> Absolutely true. 20 years ago, the CIO of a company that used to be the monopoly supplier technology for the company, they decided what hardware to use, what servers, what stores to use, what applications to buy. And then all of a sudden, like Amazon came around and said, "Well, look, here's a set of APIs, go build what you want." And so the competition for kind of like the centralized decision making became Amazon. And guess what? CIOs reacted, they got better, they got smarter, and those that embrace kind of like an API developer-led adoption, became the CIOs you wanted to have in the company. So I think, CIOs in this cloud mobile era have adopted that philosophy that, look, my job now as the CIO is to enable my developers, my employees, which really the assets of the company is the people, to have the right tools. So you're asked a bunch of cloud APIs, like Rockset or whatever for data, or here's a bunch of resources, or open source technologies for you to pull. So like I invested in a company recently called Chronosphere, it's an open source technology around metrics and monitoring. So, "Hey, use this open source time series database for monitoring your cloud and build upon that," and they're not going to say, "We're going to pick one large vendor that's monolithic," we're going to say, "Here's an open source tech company or a cloud API, go build upon that." And the companies that are embracing that philosophy of API-led or developer-led, John, they're going to be far ahead the better CIOs, the better companies, because the rate of digital adoption has just gone exponential, so we were on this super fast path already, and with quarantine in COVID, we've accelerated all that digital transformation, so every brick-and-mortar retailer now has to be eCommerce retailer. So they're making a slow digital transformation to go from brick-and-mortar stores to online stores. Now like brick-and-mortar retail is pretty much not happening, and probably won't come back to the same levels for a while, they need to accelerate their move towards digital transformation, right? >> And IT certainly exposes the people who haven't really made those investments, because literally action and the mandate, now take action, make those changes, totally want to dig into this developer-led vision, because I think that's very real. And the new decision is going to be made on what to do. I'm happy to see the DevOps thinking, the agile, speed become the table stakes. So with that, this week, Google is having their nine-week digital event of 200 plus sessions, essentially, an asynchronous event, it's going to be sprinkled out, they've kind of pretty much released the videos, most of them today. Over the next eight, nine weeks, you're going to see a lot of videos. Google, one of the big three got AWS, Azure, Google, what's your assessment of the horses on the track relative to the cloud? >> I've been talking about this for seven, eight, nine years, I first met it, like in the first or second Amazon reinvent and what was the forecast? And we said, well, it's not a winner take all, but right now, it's a winner take most. Amazon's clearly the market share leader, Azure coming up quickly behind the enterprise, Google's a third but they're doing some smart things around technology. Google announced a bunch of things today, which I think are very smart. So for example, they announced BigQuery Omni, which is BigQuery that's in query, their kind of a data warehouse, also query data and private cloud Azure or Amazon. And so strategically, if you're the number three player, you're going to push a multi-cloud agenda with BigQuery Omni, or Google Anthos, which is kind of a multi-cloud platform. And for Google, I think is the right strategy. I also think it's the right strategy for most customers to be multi-cloud, because you can't be dependent upon, a single point of failure in your applications. You can't be dependent on a single cloud as well. So I think multi-cloud is probably the direction we're headed as cloud matures. And I think Google's making a bunch of the right choices around embracing multi-cloud, and today they made that choice with BigQuery Omni, and so I think they're playing catch up but they're playing that game. I think Amazon's clue is still in the lead and still it blows my mind, and it's continuing to impress me what they've done over the past 10 years in terms of improving the cloud offering and the cloud services up and down the stack, and I think the past five, six years, what Azure has done, has been super impressive in terms of, Microsoft embracing, open source embracing, cloud as an ethos against their legacy business of operating systems and servers on premise, they've done a great job of embracing the next generation. But I do think, looking around the corner this new developer-led mindset is going to matter, right? So the cloud tomorrow will be APIs, like Stripe for payments, Twilio for communication. So I see the next evolution not just being VMs and containers, but also a bunch of cloud services around data, security, and privacy. And the cloud vendors can build this next generation of database APIs, or privacy APIs, security APIs, that they're going to be in the catbird seat for the next 10 years of applications are going to be built. >> And it'll be interesting to your developer-led position, our conversation around that, if the developer is going to be leading, is it going to be an abstraction layer across multiple clouds? Or do I have to have my Google developers, and my Amazon developers, and my Azure developers? How do you see that playing out? Because I do believe developer-led is the way, the question is, how do you avoid forking resources, right? So you might want to have an (mumbles) I get that, but if I'm going to go double down on say, a cloud, I'm going to go deep, I'm going to hire developers. >> It's interesting, history suggests you have multiple teams remember, we used to have a Unix team or a Sun team inside companies, right? You had a Windows team, you had a kind of a Solaris and Linux team, and there's a Microsoft team, and a non-Microsoft team, in most companies and they didn't really work well together and they had kind of two groups in most companies. I think that was an okay way to get started, but ultimately, to your point, that was not cost effective at all, it was defeating, you see now you had to like have to rethink it, what was my data backup strategy? Okay, I have a Windows backup strategy, and a Unix Solaris backup strategy. So I think we're not going to make the same mistake again, right? I think what will happen, we'll going to have multiple clouds, Amazon, Google, Azure, and then on premise private cloud, so call it, three, four, or five clouds. And then you're going to have a set of tools that can abstract away, not 100% of the clouds, but I think the best developer tools, the best APIs will be multi-cloud. So I can get 80% or 90% of what I want to be done through this developer-led layer of APIs, be it databases or analytics. And then, 10 to 20% of the code, you can write will be able to take care of what's unique to Amazon, what's unique to Azure, what's unique to Google or what's unique to your own private cloud. But I think we're seeing a layer of technology and that's true to all the startups. With back and true to all the startups I see that lets you get most of the way done with a single platform, seamlessly AI technologies, and that's what customers want, right? They don't want to create modal fiefdoms, they want-- >> They want choice. The want choice, but the reality is they don't always get it. I want to go through a throwback to 2010 when Paul Maritz, head of the VMware our first CUBE gig, he said, there's a hardened top. Okay, the hardened top was, you don't worry about what's underneath the top, we're just going to focus on top of the stack that was classic kind of, the stack would develop and you'd had standardization. You mentioned you had Windows teams and Unix teams, but also you could argue that, back then you had Cisco and Wellfleet vendors, but you didn't have two teams of routers, you had one standard that ran the remote interoperability, and OSPF routing, or whatever you had going on, so you had some standardization, how do you view that? Because you want some standardization to have the interoperability, the SLAs and the security, at the same time you want to have flexibility, kind of above what may be called a hardened top, is there a hardened top in multi-cloud? >> I'd say hard top doesn't exist in same way. I think back in the day, you had proprietary technologies, operating systems and firmware, right? So windows was closed, a lot of the network operating systems were closed source. Now you can't get away with that. So you have open source technologies today and public APIs. And so the pressure of both one, competition, two, public APIs that people can read, copy, adjust, three, open source, and it's just customer demand not to be locked into a hard top anymore, that's largely going to go away. So I think most of the major vendors success will try to kind of more or less lock you in and keep you stuck on their platform, their technology, and that's fine, right? Every successful company should be able to do that. But I think the ability to lock you in through proprietary software or operating systems, that's not going to happen anymore. I see through cloud and open source, what we've seen is kind of interoperability, and flexibility is the default, if you can't meet those needs, customers will go other ways. There'll be proprietary technologies, proprietary extensions along the way, but 60, 70% of what you want is going to be compatible with most technologies and most clouds. If you're not going to offer choice and freedom to our customers, they'll go elsewhere. If you don't offer a flexible solution, John, someone else will, and the customers will choose a more flexible solution. >> I would agree with you. Outside of latency, which is laws of physics, value is the lock in, if you're creating value, that's really what the customers want, they get to capture that value. Well, Jerry, great to have you on. I love the new setup. We're going to have to make this more of it. We can bring you in on the podcast when we get Zooms over the weekend, maybe put a panel together. Let's get Carl Eschenbach some VMware alarms to come on, give the perspective, what's going on. And I thank you for taking the time and great to see that you're healthy and doing well. Thanks. >> Me too. Thanks, john. Anytime, I love to be on theCUBE, so I look forward to my next trip. >> All right, Jerry Chen, great CUBE alumni, our first interview over nine years ago, he brought that up. That was at the second reinvent, boy has the world changed, and it's only going to accelerate even faster. Everything's changing new bets are being made, decisions have to be evolving quickly and faster. If you're not fast, you will be in the pile of dead companies and not making it. So, Jerry Chen breaking it down as venture capitalist for Greylock. I'm John Furrier with theCUBE. Thanks for watching. (soft music)

>> Announcer: Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE! Covering Splunk .conf19. Brought to you by Splunk. >> Okay, welcome back, everyone. It's theCUBE's live coverage here in Las Vegas for Splunk's .conf 2019. It's the 10th year of .conf and we have two great guests, Rick Fitz, senior vice president, general manager of groups at Splunk, and Karthik Rau, vice president, area GM of SignalFx. The big story is SignalFx acquired by Splunk. Rick, you sponsored that. Guys, welcome to theCUBE, great to see you guys again. >> Yeah, great to be here, Jeff. >> Great to be here. >> They just broke a world record for the bike on intro there. >> Rick: They did. >> Pretty exciting what's going on here, a lot of records being broken. Splunk just continues to move the needle on capabilities, product, platform, brand messaging. SignalFx coming, we've been reporting on it since their founding, really in your wheelhouse, you guys bought them for a good number, a big number? >> Rick: Yup. >> Why? What's going on? Why the interest in SignalFx? >> You know, for a long time, we've been watching, I would say, perhaps, patiently, watching the market and the trends, and we were really waiting for a time where the new application architecture was really going to kind of start to take hold, where this cloud native trend that we've been seeing where people are building applications, where people are actually delivering applications to market in quite a different way, would finally get some escape velocity, and we've been watching patiently for that to occur. And as we saw that last year start to accelerate, really, we went out and surveyed the entire market and, of course, at the end of that survey, resulted in the acquisition of SignalFX, and also of Omnition. And so we bought those two companies, and have combined them to deliver on our vision of what we've trying to do for DevOps. >> Rick, you and I had a conversation in 2015 here in theCUBE at the .Conf at that time, you were on the IoT, you saw this wave, again, you've been patient. What about IT operations that's happening now that makes this so critical for Splunk? 'Cause IT operations, we know what automation's doing, machine learning toolkit, getting a lot of rave reviews. People love to automate things, but more apps are coming. What's the motivation now? What was the critical linchpin for you to make this happen? >> Yeah, exactly. What we're seeing is, in traditional IT operations is this world where developers build these monolithic applications, hand 'em off to operations, and they operate it. And then in the same conversation, you'll get handed over to somebody running, if you will, developer engineering or cloud engineering or they have various different levels for it but you're really dealing with an engineering organization and they're being tasked with digitization of their enterprise and very strategic investments are being made there, but they're also being asked to build things at high availability, high scalability, and highly reliable with lots of change. So it's kind of the competitive advantage of the enterprise. And as I was seeing that occur more and more I just saw the distance between IT operations and development, kind of, separate, and I said, wow, that's interesting 'cause it's being driven by this new application architecture, or cloud native architecture. And I didn't want to be left behind. I wanted to actually be able to build a bridge for IT operations into this future. And I think this future trend is something that's going to be lasting for the next 10, 15 to 20 years. So I think this is very strategic to Splunk and very important for us to get right for the long-term, but I also see my role as part of Splunk, is to make sure that we take IT operations into this new world, because these new worlds, and if you will, the existing worlds, those operating models are quite different. >> John: Yeah. >> They operate differently. They think differently. They, in one they own their code, they're on call. In another one they're waiting for something to fix so then they try to, you know, we're waiting for something to break and then they fix it. So we're trying to actually help enterprises across that entire gambit with some pattern. >> And certainly with security the theme here, at this event, this is a security event too, on top of everything right? So, this is what it's turned into. >> Rick: That's right. >> Data is driving a lot of security polemetry and data's important for security, so. >> Yeah. >> I mean, that's operations. >> That's right. And your apps have to be secured, in both worlds. >> Yeah. >> So, I think Splunk has a role to play in helping in this transformation for all of IT as it becomes much more developer centric. And, of course, as I said, that is really one of the strategic reasons why we led the acquisition Citadel FX in Omni. >> Well, we're looking forward to seeing how you handle the acquisition, of course, we were fans of the deal. Karthik, I got to ask you, every single company in observability space is going public. So, why, you could have gone public, why Splunk? Why sell to these guys? What made it a fit for you? >> Well, ultimately, we look at a number of things, or we looked at a number of things in making the decision and we wouldn't have done this with anyone other than Splunk. Just a strategic fit was just so great on so many levels. You know, when we started the company our goal was to solve the modern dream observability challenges for anyone building a cloud native application, and we knew that was going to be a long road. They're going to be a lot of things we needed to invest in and develop. And so we started on the metric side. We layered on distributive tracing and we took a philosophy that we wanted to build an enterprise great, scalable, robust, feature-rich set of technologies. We weren't in the market to build, you know, SMB, kind of very simple, limited type of a product. We're really focused on the larger, more sophisticated customers. And so, as we looked at continuing to extend our portfolio, one of the things that we needed to invest in was in the logging space because, when you think about the trifecta of monitoring data types that you need, you know, logging is a big part of it. And we knew that we wouldn't be able to go and build a logging system from the ground up that would be robust enough to support enterprise use cases, and so we started a partnership conversation with Rick and team, and it just became very clear through that process that there was a tremendous amount of product fit, vision fit, culture fit, values fit. Just everything was so aligned that we realized that we could do so much more together as one company. So, we rounded out the solution portfolio, or the technology portfolio quite substantially over night by becoming a part of Splunk and then the other part of it too is, you know, we saw as we were dealing with customers, we were dealing mostly with native cloud native, cloud first customers. But a lot of the customers that we were, that were prospects, that we were talking too were more traditional enterprises who were not 100% of the way there yet. Some of them weren't even 10% of the way there yet. And it was difficult for us to really engage in conversations early with them, to help them understand what does it mean to shift from traditional IT ops to DevOps because we didn't have a relationship with them on the IT ops side of things, and so, the other thing that we were really excited about being a part of Splunk is we can be a part of that conversation from the very beginning when the customer, you know, maybe they're just beginning to think about it and they don't have the urgency of doing it today but we can be there with them from the very beginning and help them get there on their timelines. >> This is an interesting discussion point because what you're highlighting and we've had conversations about your company about being a platform, not just a tool. So, you're getting at is that as you guys started getting more market share, you're platform needs, you needed logging. And meet the market leader, right here right? >> Yeah. >> That's right. >> So, you guys need them, so, partnering's hard when you're trying to build a platform. Now, you can have a platform that enables partners to build on top of it, but components of a full baked platform, it's hard to partner. Rick, what's your thoughts and reaction to that, because that's my statement, but do you agree with it? It's hard to partner in the platform, it's core competency. Look it, he struggled with logging 'cause he'd have to build out a boat load of new investment and you guys are already, just to catch up. >> Yeah, that's right. And I think the thing that needs to be stated here is in your large scale enterprises, they are truly looking for the best to breed, highly scalable environments, right, that we're talking about here. And, they want, they encouraged us to take a step in this direction. It was an obvious choice and I think that has been the reaction that we've kind of heard universally. Like, this is a great idea. This is a really strategic thing that you've Splunk folks have actually done. And so that's really encouraging and so I would agree with you. Partnering, and we were talking through it, but as we were talking, it's like, this is better not to partner in this case. >> John: Better together. >> One of the things that's really important is that logs, you know, that's what were all about. We've actually spent a lot of time in trying to invest into this streaming world of dealing with things in stream. And these guys have perfected it for Metrix, which is, that's the strategic aspect of this. And then combining what they had already done with Tracing, with Omnition, it just doubles down on this future of this application architecture that I mentioned. >> Some MMAs have a couple flavors to them. You buy a company, you throw them under a general manager, an executive, they kind of live there. Founders lead, you get the core tech, some team. The other scenario is full team comes in, hits the ground running. They're building out. They're going to own the build-out. It's seems to me based upon the Omnition acquisition, you're giving Karthik and team, kind of some reign here. >> Rick: Yeah. >> To go build this out. Is that how you guys see it? >> Yeah, that's exactly right. And so, both Speros and Karthik report to me. I'm their onboarding czar, as it were. But were really what we're going to focus on is customer success and achieving our business case. And really capitalizing on the opportunity. These guys were running a hundred miles an hour and we got to get them to got a thousand miles and we're only going to make adjustments to the business case in order to achieve that. And that's what we're here to do is to shepherd this organization in its entirety to the greatness that I think we all see out there. We're going to do that in a very careful, cautious way. >> Karthik, Omnition is a acquisition stealth company. Kind of a commitment saying hey, here's some more horsepower. Talk about how that happened and what's the purpose behind that acquisition. >> Well, I can let Rick talk to how it happened. And I'll talk about the other plans, so. >> When we surveyed the market we actually found that people have certain strengths. These guys that actually started their journey into tracing. I guess their first release was last December and so they've made some strides. And we kind of found Omnition through this discussion and we went like, oh my gosh. And we were in the process of doing the acquisition, doing due diligence. And we set everything on their roadmap is what these guys have done and vice versa. This is another combination that we can't pass up. This is, and what I told him the day we closed, I said, if you had the capital you would have done this, and he's like, yeah I would've. (chuckles) >> One of the things that Rick had asked me during our process was, what are the top three things that you would invest in if you had Slunk resources behind you. And I said Microservices APM, Microservices APM, Microservices APM, and so. >> And I got a big grin 'cause I obviously couldn't disclose what we doing but.. >> You know, the Omnition team, they're still in stealth so there's not a whole lot out there on the web about them. It's a phenomenal team. They've got people who are committers on some major open source projects, deeply technical, very, very shared philosophy to what we had a SignalFx in terms of open instrumentation, not having any proprietary lock in how you collect an instrument data. Very similar philosophies around leveraging the power of analytics and monitoring. And we just actually focused on different parts of the problem because we're both relatively early in this effort. So, we effectively doubled up the teams capacity over night and accelerated our roadmap by several quarters, so, I'm really excited about what we can do together with them. >> Well, are they the Bay area or they from.. >> They are Bay area base, yes. >> Okay cool. Well, I want to get your guys' thoughts on the keynote today. Feedback was authentic, kind of very cool keynote. As you guys bring this together, Rick, Karthik team, the optics, the messaging, what's the core positioning? What's, as you guys look at wholistic view now that you've invested in and are building out for customers, what's the posture? Take us through the keynote positioning. What's the marketplace, customer message around the future here? >> Yeah, I think it's really clear that what we're trying to do for IT organizations and application development organizations is build solutions that are modern and helpful to their core mission. And, by the way as I mentioned, in the world of new development, it's different, it's a different solution set. It's a different approach, a different operating model than it is in current IT operations. And so, one of the key messages we wanted to resonate is that we have the right solutions in both these worlds for you and that we're trying to develop an operating model of reactive response, a quick response, or engaging the right person in the problem, through our use of VictorOps for example, and using that as a way to be very intelligent about how we educate the people that are engaging in resolution process. So, we are trying to create a bridge to both worlds so that they can both be successful. And then under pit that, of course, with automation that can be leveraged in both worlds as well. So, that's what we're trying to convey. We know it's early days, by the way, these guys have been with the company for three weeks, so, it's kind of like, wow. >> Culture shock. >> Culture shock. >> Throw into deep water. Yeah, let's throw you out on stage in front of 11,000 people and see if you can swim and they did phenomenal, by the way. But that was kind of the key message and we're so excited because we just, we feel like were just in the first inning of perhaps a 19 or 20 inning game, 'cause I think it's going to be a lot of fun. >> Karthik: Yeah it is. >> And it's going to be close out here but we're really excited to be able to bring this to market. >> I mean, it's amazing coming in now three weeks in to see the breath of technology that's available and that's going platform. And, you know, what struck me today watching the keynote was just, you know it's such a feature rich and such a broad platform from everything in the, with the core, indexing capabilities that everyone's known about a long time. All of the ML, the additional capabilities we're going to bring in on the metric side. >> Yeah. >> And then the use cases just across every persona, there's just so much that we can do. >> What do you think of the culture? Are they run hard? They a playful company? They like to work hard, play hard? >> Yup. >> But they also are focused on real customer value. They got great engaged communities. What's your take of the culture so far? >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean culture fit was a really important part for us if we're going to be acquired by a company and be a part of a larger organization. Their kindred spirits I feel to the way we ran SignalFx. It's a very customer focused organization, great technology and engineering culture. And it's hard to find both, right? It feels like every organization is very important and very well respected. It's not like heavily skewed to it's just all about engineers, it's all about sales, it's very balanced culture and it's very customer focused. >> Guys, congratulations. Big deal. They don't see these kind of mega deals, they come along once in a while. It's a big bet. Good luck with everything, Rick. Thanks for coming on. Final question for both of you, what's the big take-a-way to take back to the office as you leave .Conf this week? What's going to resinate the most with you guys that you're going to take back as feedback? >> For me its, you know, I get my energies from customer conversations. We all do here at Splunk. If you're having a bad day, go talk to a customer and then they walk you and stop you in the hall and say, you know we really thank you again doing what you do. And so it just, I take back from this always that what we do matters and is important and just keep chugging along at it because we're doing some really good work out there that's really helping lives. And that's really important. >> John: That's good therapy. >> Yeah. >> When a bad day, talk to a customer. >> Go talk to a customer. >> I love you guys. (laughs) What's your take-a-way? >> I'm just, I'm thrilled at the number of customers who are coming up to me and saying how excited they are about the acquisition and working with us. You know, that's really re-affirming for me and it's just super exciting to see what we have ahead of us. >> You guys have a great tech following. A lot of tech leaders who knew you guys, knew you had good stuff so congratulations. Great Validation. >> Yup. Thank you. >> John: Good job >> Thank you John. >> Thanks you guys for coming on theCUBE. Great insight. Thanks for sharing all that data. (laughs) Data to everywhere here on theCUBE. I'm John Furrier, more coverage after this short break. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE covering Magento Imagine 2019, brought to you by Adobe. >> Welcome to the theCUBE, I'm Lisa Martin at The Wynn, in Las Vegas for Magento Imagine 2019. This is a three day event. You can hear a lot of exciting folks networking behind me, talking tech, talking e-commerce innovation and we're pleased to welcome fresh off the keynote stage a couple of guests from HP. We've got Gillian Campbell, the Head of Omni-channel Strategy and Operations. Gillian, thank you for joining us. >> Thank you for asking us. >> Our pleasure and Herriot Stobo, Director of Omni-channel Innovation and Solutions, also from HP. Welcome. >> Thank you very much. >> So Gillian fresh off the keynote stage, enjoyed your presentation this morning. >> Gillian: Thank you. >> Everybody I think in the world knows HP. Those of us consumers going, you know what actually, that reminds me, I need a new printer. >> We can help you. >> Thank you, excellent. Whether I'm shopping online or in a store. So you gave this really interesting keynote this morning talking about what HP is doing, starting at Apache. You really transform this shopping experience. Talk to us a little bit about HP, as I think you've mentioned it as a $50 billion start up and from a digital experience perspective, what you needed to enable. >> Yeah, so as I said, HP have been around for 80 years and in 2015, we became our own entity, HP Inc., and really started looking at how do we enable digital to be pervasive through everything that we do. Our internal processes are reached to customers and identified a great opportunity to really take leading edge and our digital commerce capabilities and we already had some early proof points and APG so we launched a global initiative and we're now on that journey to enable that best in class experience through the digital platforms. >> So Herriot talk to us about, you're based in Singapore. >> Yes. >> What were some of the market dynamics that really made it obvious that this is where we want to start building out this omni-channel strategy starting in Apache? Is it, you know whether, Gillian you mentioned it before. We started retail spaces, some being expensive. Is it more mobile experience and expectations on consumer's part? >> I think we've got a mix of different starting points across Asia. We've got some mega cities like Hong Kong and Singapore rising, Tokyo. And then we've got you know emerging markets across South-East Asia. We don't necessarily have any single market place that controls the entire market as we might see in other regions and so we've had a lot of runway to go and experiment and try new things. We also have an ecosystem of branded retail in Asia. Not in all markets, predominantly in India but also in some markets in South-East Asia that allow us to really blend the experience across both offline and online and to give customers choice at the end of the day. Let them decide how they want to shop and interact with our brand. So we have been running Magento 1 since we first launched our online store businesses in Indonesia and Thailand about six years ago and then we moved into China, replatformed, lexi-platform onto Magento 1 and then that was really the foundation of what we decided to go and build upon to become a global program. so we already had some proof points under our belt with Magento so. >> And what were some of those early wins that really started to make this really obvious that this omni-channel experience, the ability to give customers choice? Whether they want to start the process online, finish it in store, vice verse, or at least have the opportunity to have a choice? What were some of those early wins and business outcomes that you started to see? >> I think even just from because we're all, customers are people. Whether you're a corporate customer, a small business, or a consumer, we're all people and we all know that we shop that way. So essentially the storyline on that back to HP was we have to enable experiences that we would want to experience as well and it was quite a shift for a tech company who were really all about the products to be thinking about, well, how do we really enable that end to end experience? And as Herriot said, the runway was open. We already had some proof points. I was new in the job so I was like all listening to, you know, what the team were telling me. We have a great opportunity here and took that formered as a new concept for the company. We got funding approval and you know the rest is the history and the journey that we're on. So I think it was just taking a different perspective and a different approach and working with a team who already had the, built some of that credibility and others proof points with the earlier deployments and I think we kind of took a risk at the time when we started the engagement with Magento. They weren't in that leadership quadrant and we took a risk to say, let's partner with an energizing company and do something a little bit different and we're still here working towards it so I think that for me was the breakthrough, was just having the tenacity to say, we're gonna drive this path forward. It may not be how we would have done things in the past, but we're a different company now. and we had much more thinner air cover to be able to do that. >> Little bit more agility and flexibility. >> Yeah, absolutely. So you guys, you talked about, Gillian about all the buyers. We are the consumers and we have this expectation, growing expectation that I want to be able to get any and transact anything that I want to buy, whether I'm a procuring person for a company and I'm traveling but I need to approve expenses or I'm a salesperson maybe sitting next to a medium-small business customer. I need to have the option at least to have this store front. What are the things that you guys launched in Apache, leverage be the power of Magento Commerce was click to collect. So tell me a little bit about from maybe an e-commerce cultural perspective, what is it that makes people want to have the ability to start online and actually complete the transaction in a physical location? >> Essentially I was in the Advisory Board yesterday and one of the other customers of Magento said, "Until we can invent a way to touch and feel online, "there's always gonna be a need to have, "outlets where you can go touch and feel." and I think with the click and collect, some of our products are, you know, high-end PCs and gaming devices and printers that is hard to get a good appreciation of what it looks and feels like online. So if you're gonna be spending you know, a significant money you may want to go in and be able to see the colors, feel the finish. You know some of our newer products with the leather portfolios is not something you can truly appreciate without touching it. So I think we have to enable again those customers who do want to experience, feel the weight, you know feel the finish, see the color scheme 'cause its usually important, again not for all customers. Some customers are quite happy to spend thousands of dollars on an online purchase without seeing it and then making sure they have a good facility to be able to, well if they wanted to, to return if they got the normal the product. >> As we look though at like we talked about, this consumerization of everything where we have this expectation and the numbers, I think you even mentioned it maybe in your keynote, Gillian, the numbers of, or somebody did this morning, like upwards of half of all transactions are starting on mobile so we got to start there. What are some of the things that you guys have seen in region in terms of mobile conversions? >> So there's still a massive gap between desktop and mobile conversions, first of all. I mean we're not anywhere near parity between the two. But obviously we're seeing a huge volume of traffic coming in as well and it's shifting that way, so you would expect it to drop as result. I think with Magento what we've seen over the, you know, past few deployments that we've been running and that were over 8% improven. But the desktop conversions are far higher. I mean in terms of improvement and actual conversion so we've still got a long way to go. There and that's a naturative process, that's a journey that probably never ends in terms of ongoing optimization and experimentation. So yeah a lot happening there. I think just on the click and collect topic as well that you were asking about people wanting to start their journey online and then come into bricks and mortar. We're seeing a huge uptake on it just by experimenting, by piloting. Over 26% of our consumer notebooks in India that we've put onto this program were being collected in store and this is in environments which are inherently chaotic on the streets. You don't want to go out there but actually I'm passing that way anyway so it's just easier for me to pick it up on the way home and probably quicker 'cause I can collect in two hours. So it's just giving people customer choice, no additional incentive and it seems to take. So now we're expanding out regionally. >> So you said there's, this morning, Gillian, in your keynote eight markets covered, mostly Apache, but also in Latin America. >> We just started in Latin America, again, the development process is not just as simple as we're switching on. So we've been doing a lot of work for this past six months with Latin America. The team there, they're super excited to get launched. There's some differences there, we've talked about the regional variation around fulfillment models that we have to adapt towards but the intent is to get Latin America deployed, leveraging some of the layer lengths from what we've done in Asia specific and then starting to move around into more the near region and then ultimately back into the US and Canada. >> So as you look forward and of course you've mentioned we're on this journey right, what are some of the key learnings that you're going to apply? You mentioned this morning, something that was very intriguing and that was, respect the integrity of the Magento platform. Talk about that in context of some of the other learnings that you'd recommend for colleagues and similar or other industries to be able to achieve what you have on a global scale. >> I think from the outset, there was this kind of like baggage of deployments of capabilities not just in commerce but deployment of capabilities across HP that we had not respected the integrity of the platform. We had adjusted the code and developed on the code to make it HP specific and with the new HP Inc. company one of the guided principles was no, when we buy the leverage software applications respect it for what it is and adjust business processes and adjust integration rather than adjust the core so that we can get the advantage of the longer term opportunity without creating such like. So it was really just a foundational, you know, let's not go in here with a mindset that we know better than the core. The core is there for a reason and then build around that and ensure the integration and I think you know with Herriot's leadership, we've been able to you know, just keep that firm is why we can be successful and be successful longer term as well. So that all the, and one of the things we talked about yesterday also is the excellent capabilities that are coming with Adobe and the integration that we talked about the recommendation of Adobe Sensei and integrate that with Magento Core. If you don't keep to the respect the integrity, those upgrades and capabilities become really hard to take benefit of so we're really excited about, you know, again, sticking with the core and enabling and growing with the core with Magento and Adobe. >> I would just build on it, I mean I think its never gonna be easy running a global commerce platform. Single instance, multiple countries, you know, 27 markets to get started with. Who knows where we're gonna end. Its always gonna be a challenge so we have to keep it as simple as possible. These upgrades are fast and furious and that's great and we all gets lots of benefit but if we start going down our own path, we've lost it. We've lost the benefit. >> And that's one of the things too that Jason Wolfsteen said this morning was that the word Magento was gonna be enabling businesses to achieve without getting in their way and it kind of sounds Herriot, like you're saying the same thing. That we've gotta be able to respect the technologies that we're building so we don't get in our own way and we keep it simple as we wanna expand globally. Ultimately at the end of the day, you're creating these personalized experiences with consumers and that personalization is so important because it's more and more not only are we transacting or wanting to on mobile but we want our brands like HP to know us. We want you to know our brand value, you know our average order value so that we can become part of the experience but also ideally get rewarded for being loyal. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, I mean, I mean just coming to mobile again but you know, 2.3 delivers the native PWA capabilities which we're super excited to get started with. You know we've got so many used cases for this straight away, right out the box but you know we've got to do it gradually, do it the right way. I think we're also aware that we're not gonna be able to run with PWA in all markets straight away 'cause not all markets are ready for it quite frankly. User behavior- >> Is that a cultural thing? >> It's purely cultural. Maybe technical and just technical ecosystems as well. Places like China in particular, where, you know, customers use app stores but they use app stores from every single phone manufacturer right there. That's where the customer is. We can't just move away from that so we need to keep some of those legacy approaches for a little while and then yeah test in other regions and then take the learnings when we're ready to adopt it. >> Exciting so here we are at, this is the first Magento Imagine since the Adobe acquisition. Gillian, let's wrap things up with you. What are your, you mentioned you were part of the Customer Advisory Board yesterday, just some of your perspectives on this years' event now that Magento is powering the Adobe commerce cloud. >> I actually attended the Adobe Summit a few weeks ago here also in Vegas and started to see the thread of commerce coming into that conference and then seeing the Adobe, the experience, coming into Magento and I just think it's a perfect combination of opportunities especially for a company like HP where we were linked in to connect, you know, marketing and sales and support across the customer journey and the capabilities with Adobe and some of the marketing stack, and then the commerce stack, and there was support bringing that together is a super exciting opportunity for us. You know the partnership that we have with both Adobe and Magento again as one as I really, they were just starting what the next journey was gonna look like. >> We feel that about so many things, we're just starting, but Gillian, Herriot, it's been a pleasure to have you on theCUBE for Magento Imagine 2019. Thank you both for your time. >> Thank you, thank you. >> Our pleasure. I'm Lisa Martin and you're watching theCUBE live from The Wynn Las Vegas at Magento Imagine 2019. Thanks for watching. (light music)

>> Live from Orlando, Florida It's the que Covering Enterprise Connect twenty nineteen. Brought to you by five nine. >> Hello from Orlando, Florida Lisa Martin with the cubes to amendments here with me as well. We are at Enterprise Connect twenty nineteen, and we've been graciously hosted this week by five nine. We're pleased to welcome to the Cube for the first time the V p of product marketing from five nine. Scott Coleman Scott Thank you so much for joining me today >> to be here. >> So Day three of this event. Biggest enterprise Connect. If they've had sixty five hundred attendees expected, we're in the Expo Hall, which you could hear all the buzz behind US one hundred forty or so exhibitors announcing new products, new services, etcetera, all talking about putting the customer at the heart of the contact center. Why is that so important >> now? It's a great question, and to your point about the show itself in the floor. Really, The Context center is very much at the center of actual floor itself, in terms of who's hear what they're talking about. It's not an after thought. It's really I think it's an acknowledgement that companies are realising that they have to take the customer experience seriously. And the context center is that point where you either reinforce the brand or you rode it right. So this is now the opportunity for companies to think a little differently about what role in place and how they're going to use it to really build a better relationship. >> Scott. It's been interesting. Lease and I came in tow this show being the first time that we've been at the show. But, you know, we're both consumers. We've looked through it, you know? I think back to the last decade or so there was outsourcing. There was technology, which is I'm just going to say, you know, some of the big technology companies I want to call them. Are you kidding? You can't write hide that. I can't even email them if I wanted to it. You know that the customer relation stupid, very different. But today it feels like the pendulum is swinging back the other way, right, that that customer relations we know when I need to talk to somebody. It's important that I do get to talk to a person and technologies an enabler of that, >> Yeah, absolutely, you know, And the question is, why? What changed? Right? And there's a couple things that really changed to make that happened. Probably the primary thing is customers had more choice. And then the voice right there more choice. Never before. It's no longer the issue, depending on whatever industry you're in, that you're only stuck with a certain cable provider or a retailer down the street I can buy from anywhere in the world, you know. And so I have choice there. There's disrupters in every industry as we've seen over the last decade, and so that that's one element. And just as importantly, they have a voice used to be. I could go home and complained to my my wife I could claim by family members my friends. Now I can actually amplify that through social media and other elements. So not only do I have a ability to move, but also in terms of the voice. I actually have a bigger impact on the brand, right, and those there is really big elements there. >> So along those lines, if you look at the consumer behavior is being so influential companies are they looking at it as more of an opportunity. Go. All right. Maybe we have a few channels. Maybe we're voice only. What? How does finding help a customer that might be voice only, Or maybe multi channel get to Omni Channel so that they can, as I loved what you study. No thiss contact senator. Moment in time is an opportunity to improve the brand or eroded. So how are they working with you guys to enable a customer to be able to have their issues identified, resolved quickly through various channels? >> What's the first thing is when you look at Omni Channel is why, what? Ultimately you want to make sure that you're o engaging with your customer over them channel on the method that they prefer. Right? That's the most important element there. So it's not about having ten, fifteen different ways to communicate. It's letting them do it when, where and how they choose to. That's the most important thing, and it's also then understanding. What else do they expect? Well, first in the expect is they want you. They want you to know them. You know, our research that we've done through our customer service index and a light consistently shows that people first and they want to know is Nomi understand my relationship. So when we work with our customers, we really focus on that as they engage over a phone call and email a chat, another channel. Always make sure that you, at the heart of it, you understand who they are. And one of the ways to do that is draw that information and make it available to the agent. So integration with serum systems with workforce optimization, others is critical so that when they're at the point of engagement, that moment of truth, they're able. Teo acknowledge the customer and probably have a really good understanding of not only their history, but why they're why they're engaging with you. Why they're calling are contacting >> Scott. Wait. We had a great conversation with Darrell, who's part part of your team, about how cloud not only enables the speed and agility, but, you know, I could start using new features much faster and easier. Then, in a non cloud environment. Wonder if you might have some customer stories to help illustrate some of these journeys as to you know, maybe just what they've gotten from Day one, but also, you know, subsequent to your customers that have been with you for a while. The rights that they keep innovating and adopting new things along the road. You >> know, it's funny. I I think of a couple examples. One. We had a customer who, newer, a newer company, a bit of a destructor in their industry, and they actually started out with digital channels on Lee. They had no voice. So they were offering email and Chad and other methods. And then, to their surprise, they found that they needed to introduce voice. They were deal with more millennials folks that they assumed were going to communicate over the right. Well, what happened was there were certain times when they wanted to actually communicate over Voice Channel. Maybe it was a financial issue. Maybe it was emotionally charged or something like that. So they brought. That is, we were able to help them by integrating in first. So they're there Syria to be able to digital channels and then open up voice. Now the other side of it is, we have customers who will start me with Voice Channel, and then they again understanding your customer, your end customers what do they want? Introducing a chat and making sure that those agents have all the relevant information they need to be able to do that. Realizing that email is still around after all these years, there's sometimes you want to communicate that way because you can send a lot of information. So it's really about building out a plan with the customer understanding. What is that customer journey of their customers? And how do they best a treated and helped him along the way >> on that customer journey front, I'm wondering, are the majority of customers that you're meeting with not aware of their customer journey and their customer preferences for different channels? Is that something that you're finding that you're actually from a consul? Tate of Perspective saying. Actually, what's idea here is to really not make assumptions on DH to actually do some investigations, and some studies tto learn. Is that a part of the process with you guys? It's a little >> bit a little bit of that. It's also sometimes that there's a journey purchase journey, a service journey in account management journey. You know the change. Change certain things about your service profile, but it's been developed over time, just through kind of osmosis, right? And so sometimes it's stepping back and understanding. What is that? Defining that journey and saying Where Artless critical path, where it may break down where problems occur So really drawn from that and understanding where those two points where we can Actually, and I say we being with customer helped them to be able to make that better overcome frustrations and delays and so on. So that's a really important element there in terms of channels. It's really just listening, listening to customers. Listen to agents listening to people that are on the front line talking to customers day in, day out and in realizing also, what's the profile of your customer? Your buyer? You know, not everybody is the same, and it doesn't always fit based on age or other demographics. You know, I have my father's eighty nine years old and weighs text messages all the time, you know, And once he embraced that, it's a wonderful method of communication. So, you know, there's a lot of things you have to look at along the way. >> Scott one of one of the biggest challenges in technologies we need to balance simplicity with the custom, ization and all of the choice in the world. I wonder if you might be able to comment. We know you know, from a customer standpoint, from agent standpoint. We wantto get them. The information they want when they need it is simple. It's possible. But on the back end, you know, we look at how many partners five nines has in all the different technologies you work with. You know, my business needs, you know, thes seven letters in the alphabet, not these other things. So how do you balance that from a messaging? And from a product standpoint, well, >> one of the >> things I realized is that one size doesn't fit. All right, companies have are different sizes. They're different complexity preferences along the way. So we really focus on how do you adapt the context center to the needs of that business? And that could be. Sometimes they have preferred vendors. So I'm a sales force, or Oracle or Mike saw for service now or whom you name it shop. I want to continue to use that it may be on work first optimization that I want. I have a certain set of capabilities I required that fits a particular vendor. Not so we really try to. And this is the beauty of the cloud is we can host. You know, elements in there in the case of, like, workforce optimization or in a grate in the case of serum to make that seamless. When you look at it from an agent perspective, it's all about giving them a common look and feel, you know, one term that's been really used. A lot of the show is the single pane of glass, the one agent desktop where they can really navigate because we've all experienced when you call into a context center and the agent is frustrated and these are complaining about the system, I'm sorry I'm trying to figure this out O this darn system. Oh, it's gotta wait or I have to find your information. I don't care. I'm the consumer. I just want my problem solved and frankly, the agents frustrated. But by integrating it within a with the serum, we could have all that information on the desktop on ly the relevant information that the agencies at that moment, you know, if I'm dealing with the purchase. Then I need that information on agent that's going to help me along the way. I don't need to worry about other factors, and I want to be able to customize that a little bit, too. My the way I behaved as an agent. So it is about convenience, intuitiveness, you know, and just ease of use. Long way. >> I'm curious. So here we are. Day three, Almost time with Enterprise Connect. Nineteen. You've been at the event the whole time. What are some of the things that you're hearing say from the analyst community? That is exciting. You about one. The direction that the contact center market is going into, what five nine is going to be able to deliver the rest of the year and beyond. >> You know, it's interesting. A couple of years ago, the buzz and the talk wass voices dead. It's all about everybody's going digital. And that was because of the increase in the number of transaction interacts that occurred over email chat social life. Now I was just talking to an analyst a little bit ago today, said You know, it's really interesting. Voice is hot again. Voice is cool because people are realizing voice has a very distinct role. And so it's not your only digital channels. It's not. You're it's really part of that mix back to comment we had before. So that's one thing you're seeing that you're seeing that with other vendors. You're seeing that with the conversations with customers, that it's really it's part of the mix and it's appropriate. Um, the other thing is, contexts enters hot again. It's kind of, you know, cool. And it's because of that change that we talked about earlier that, uh, it's no longer about cost center. It's no longer about Oh, I have tto answer that customer question. But now I play an integral role in that relationship my company has with the customer and how I can really reinforce the brand. So those are the things I think we're also seeing and talking to the analyst as well. They're saying that excitement and and also conversations that are occurring at the event are very engaging. People are really thinking about how they could change their business, >> and you could feel that and you could hear that here. So, Scott, as you say, the contact center is hot again stew. And I thank you for joining us on the program this afternoon. >> My pleasure. Thank you >> for student a man. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the Cube.

>> Live from Orlando, Florida It's the Cube covering Enterprise Connect twenty nineteen. Brought to you by five nine. >> Hello from Orlando, Florida At least Martin was soon met a man, and the Cube was here for day. Teo of Enterprise Connect twenty nineteen. We're excited to welcome to the Cube for the first time. John Hernandez, the CEO of Intelligent John. It's great to have you on the program >> for having me, >> So give our viewers a little bit of an overview. I love the name sell agent as a market average. Fantastic. I get the contacts. Tell us a little bit about intelligent. You guys have been around for a long time. What is it that you do and your relation to enterprise communication? >> Absolutely so at the heart of it. The company started as a CR M company, and then in two thousand five, when sales force was just dominated, the C R M space, the company decided to pivot to marketing. And so the data has been the core of the platform since the beginning of the company that allows us to have so much intelligence of not only what we're marketing to the individuals, because at the end of the day. It's a marketing cloud. Application is we also have all the transactions, every hotel that's been booked, every grocery that's been purchased in the database. So we have so much insight on that consumer weaken, then serve up important ai ai capabilities like, What's the right offer? What's the right time? What's the right day and what's the right channel? My daughters on Instagram. I'ma text guy. You're an email guy that makes it all come to a life of trying to drive products and services to consumers. >> Yeah, I love that. Because you're right. It's a different people. You need to communicate different ways. You know, we've been talking at this show with contact center people. It's like Omni Channel well, voices still super important in the contact center. You know, you have any general trends you can share without, says Oh, you know what's the best way that you know what's working? What, totally failing a za >> middle aged contact center guy myself. I've been in call centre since ninety five and development of um so no, the space. Really well, So some people have been asking, what's a marketing cloud company doing it. Enterprise connect right? The reality is marketing, sales and service are starting to converge in all companies, right? The marketing department can't be in a silo anymore of driving offers to consumers without the inside sales people or the service people knowing what's going on. So we're here working with folks like Five Nines Joint customers success where we're driving campaigns and offers to consumers. And when they come to the Web sage or they call the call center or they send an email to the company. Five nines is catching that that that stuff coming in. But now we give them context. I'LL give an example. Bill dot com is a joint customer of five nines and ourselves. Five nines Does the call center we do. So they do the service and sales departments. We do the marketing, so we're pushing out offers that air personalized ifit's a contractor. They get a different few. If it's a consumer doing a bathroom remodel, they get a different view. And so it's all personalized him Now when they come to build dot com, five nines catches it and guess what? We can apply a eye on top of it to help the humans because we look at it and say, Hey, is it a contractor looking at a bathtub? That's probably a bathroom remodel. Let's get that to our highest and sales person. Like if it's a consumer looking for a faucet replacement, just satisfy that on e commerce, right? So break beautiful handshake between five nines and us, >> and that relevance is absolutely essential, as we are all consumers every day, so easy to buy things from wherever we are, right. But we also want to make sure that what we're getting because retargeting is so popular, were getting ads all the time, and it has to be relevant. So one of the things about relevance that kind of piqued my interest that you said, is a is a scene that stew and I heard yesterday, and that is that the contact center and marketing are often not communicating, and you think of how is the contact center? How did they have the content to be able to deliver it to your daughter on instagram you through text to through phone what you're seeing from a trends perspective about marketing and really as an enabler of the contact Center >> Yeah, yeah, you know, sales and service has always been closely connected, but marketing's always been off on the side, And why we're seeing a growing trend is this whole convergence of consumer experience. All CX experience, right? Everybody's talking about it, but the reality is tough to do. And so what we see happening is the CMO, or the marketing department is typically leading the charge on the strategy. But it's the sales service and departments that are buying the tech, so making sure those things are coming together to drive that relevancy is so important. Other example between us here is a is a company called Cool Blue Cool Blue is an online electronics reseller to consumers, and they saw a massive problem with returns. So we looked at the data with him, said, You know, the source of the prompt seems to be that consumer doesn't know to what to do with that product. You just sold them. So we put into an email campaign in a text campaign, an embedded video that allows them to just when that product arrives to the home they get an email with. That video dropped thirty percent on reduction of of returns Massive r a y for that customer. Well, now you got a call center agents sitting idle, right, waiting to take calls. But they're not coming now for returns. So I guess what they did. We worked again with the call center guys on the inside sales team. Put a campaign on the web site identifying things that you would be interested in and created up sells the biggest one. That was a success. Mobile plans. So we have the ability to say, Put in your phone number and your name, and we guarantee we'LL call you in thirty seconds. Put it into their outbound dialer and five nines. Boom. They called twenty eight percent conversion of >> mobile plans. Yeah, love that. When you talk about, you know, how do we reduce the load on the workload? But they know. What do I do with the work force? Do I have to retrain them? Do I have to move them? One of the big themes that the show here is like OK, aye, aye is coming, you know. Okay, Cloud is here, but a I is coming. Doesn't mean that we're getting rid of people, but it might change some of those environment. Believe there's some aye aye in your platform. Tell us a little bit about how that fits into. >> Absolutely, It's called cell agent Cortex, and it does four things extremely well. So instead of going wide and broad like a Watson type thing where you have a lot of serves, its tune it it is purpose built out of the box to do for keep things. What's the right offer to present what's the right time, day and channel of choice so that you're getting that relevance in there Now when the customer calls the calls that are sends an email or our calls the sales department, making sure that that offer comes up on the agent desktop so they know. Hey, this is what John was just offered, and that's what he's calling about. Don't talk about anything else. Close the deal right? That's the beauty of it. And to the consumer, it's relevant in the timing that matters that's so critical. >> Time is real time communications is key, and we expect that as consumers are more and more and more in power, we have everything and we're demanding, but I want to be able to transact this or find out information on whatever channel that I want, and I want the conversation to be continued. I don't want to have to start over from scratch, >> Isn't that the worst >> is you and I were talking yesterday about one of my recent calls, and it was like ground hog day. Um, and the first thing I think I'm gonna go to Twitter and escalate or miniature. So I want to get your opinion. And I love when you talk about customers with actual business outcomes and metrics that you guys, and especially with your partnership with five nine are delivering. Talk to us about the importance of bringing in customers in terms of development of technology, the A and the partnership with five. Where are those customers at your decision making table? >> Absolutely. So we get the wisdom of the crowds right when we're trying to know where the market's going, what's what's the next digital channel that we haven't even thought of yet? Right? And it comes from the marketers and inside sales, VPs and the service folks. And so we have a board of advisers of clients. We also have partners like five nines. We have marketing agencies, and all of that wisdom comes in to help us in our road map. So we have a backlog of things we want to do. They help us prior ties to make sure we're staying on top of the market trends. And the CX topic of the integration here is one of those things that emerged from our customer. So John, one of >> things we've been poking at is I want to learn from the crowd, but I'm worried about that. I don't want my competitors getting advantage based on, you know, I did something a little better. How do you manage that dynamic of you know? There's privacy. There's competitive advantages >> in most cases, usually rings true all the time. First of all, they're everybody's under India, but you know, that's only as good as the signature on it in some cases. But you make sure and have different organizations that are in different verticals, so there isn't really a lot of commonality, so you get differences of opinion, which is a good thing. But then you're not getting a telecom provider telling a retail shop that's not going to have a summer thanks so that you don't get that overlap. But typically the customers we see are very open and forthcoming because they want to advance their platform to be reflective of their customer base. >> And they have to to stay competitive. Italy One of the themes that came up today a little bit in the keynote panel was talking about internal adoption of tools that's obviously essential for a company to be able to be successful in tow. Have a stellar contact center. What are some of the as you have been around with cell agent for a long time? Teligent has for a long time. What are some of the trends that you're seeing in terms of customers embracing? We have to move quickly. Way have tio figure out what digital transformation means to us, because we've got to make sure that our internal teams who are gonna have the data to make the right decision on the offer's understand and embrace this technology. >> Yes, totally. And so you think about the call center right inside. Sensors, voices, the foundation technology, and it's never going away. I don't care what anybody says, but it doesn't mean you can ignore the email in the chat and all the other things. Same in the marketing world, Email has been the foundation of marketing for a long time, but the digital channels are exploding. And again, my daughters on Instagram, she she's not reading email, so you've got to be relevant in that moment. So internally, we have a diverse workforce that come from the call centre world from the Martek world, different generations. So that way we have the different wisdom of how to use our own tools. Our own platform communicates with all our partners and our customers to make sure we're keeping them up to date with newsletters and >> information. Judge on one of things have been really interesting to watch the maturation last few years is the changing role the CMO, yeah, and especially how digital is impacting them. So I've talked to some C M O's that are like Well, you know, I'm choosing which APS all my field using and how they're involved. The role between the CMO and the CEO goes through back and forth there. You know, a couple of years ago, one of the big analyst from like all the CEOs out of a job, you know, lines of business. They're going to run everything. Well, I think CEOs, they're still gonna have a job for a while, but I'd love to get your viewpoint on CMO digital engagement with tea. And it >> s so what we're seeing more and more of a trend now is the C. M. O. And the marketing department is kind of starting the CX strategy, right? They look at the whole customer life cycle and how we're going to take that on. But they're quickly realizing they can't pull it off without sales service and it. And in most cases, the buy is actually coming from it for the tech stack, the business consulting going to the market tears. And you've got to create that ecosystem of making sure that everybody has relevance in the by decision and all of their objectives, or being met against their key metrics. >> Yeah, Thie. Other thing. Just the role of data. I mean, we've been to Chief Data's officer events, you know? How does how does this play in kind of broader data initiatives inside a customer's >> dolly? It is all about relevance at the time and moment of need, right? You only have that one moment, and what we see is consumers. But your consumer had on. If you have a great experience with your bank and then you go to you, go to your insurance company, have a battle. You're expecting that same experience. Otherwise you're going to defect and go somewhere else. That happens everywhere all the time. So the date is critical to understand how things were going. So we have an integration where in the call center, we can get the NPS score. The Net promoter score. So was it an angry customer where they upset? Did they not like it and return something that's a low score? Takes them out of the marketing campaigns. The worst thing you could do is try and sell him something when they're angry. In the past, you had to hunt for that data to try and manually pull him out. Now it's a fully automated the aye aye, on top of that, and the integration with it's so simple you can pull him out, and when the MPs score goes back up, put him back in. But don't sell him something. Sentiment Knowledge article engaged with them before you try Start selling them again, right? >> Because Turness so easy to do as you mentioned where we have so many choices for whatever. But of course, don't market to me if I'm not happy about this in the NPS score is low. So imagine Net negative Turn and P s. You talked about some of the key metrics that talk about changing role of this GMO marketing is now such a science. Talk to us about how intelligent and five men can help really dramatically reduce that turn and really drive out the dialogue customer lifetime value. >> It all comes down to the data at our disposal and using it in the appropriate time. Right? So, for instance, if we're marketing something to them like a grocery chain marketing people, delivery services, things like that all the things in the grocery store, if they call the call center instead of doing e commerce to try and buy, they need to know what this customer normally buys. So in the databases, every transaction they've ever made in that grocery store put it up on the screen for the agents of the agent can help him through that, or if they had a wrong delivery to the wrong address. Give them the right address at their disposal, don't have them search for things, bring it to their forefront of making sure it happens. And even more important, is a real time engagement. So keeping on that read that retail grocery store as you're walking through the aisles there. It's very easy to see where you're in. The girls start through mobile triangulation through sensors in the store and make real time offers high margin product. Sell that product to that consumer. Send them a coupon in a text or in mountain mobile app. Push. Those types of things are very simple tools that between their technology, five nines and us, we create that CX experience, which is phenomenal. >> Awesome, John. Well, phenomenal job joining Stuart be on the Cube. We thank you so much for your time and talking to us about intelligent in what you're doing this five minute how you're really enabling that phenomenal cx >> Beautiful. I love it. Thanks for the invite >> or Suman a man. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the cue

>> Live from Orlando, Florida It's the Cube covering Enterprise Connect. Twenty nineteen. Brought to you by five nine. >> Yeah, good afternoon. Welcome to Orlando, Florida The Cube is here at Enterprise Connect. Twenty ninety nine. Lisa Martin with my co host to Minuteman Stew and I have been Here's starting on Day two stew. Good afternoon, >> Lisa. Great to see Yeah. Day two of three. Enterprise Connect. >> It's not that sunny >> here in the Sunshine State, but the nice thing about the Gaylord is it's a nice controlled environment. Walk by. I saw the alligator for bid. They've got nice planning. They've got I love in the atrium there. There's great branding of thie E c. Nineteen. Everybody's taken photos of it. I saw some drone footage in the keynote this morning showing some of the setting here. So >> it's a It's a nice >> event way said sixty five hundred intended, which is nice. It's not one of these, you know, twenty thirty thousand. You're just buried by people toe big Expo Hall. But, you know, you could really get to talk to some people and enjoy the size of the show. >> Yeah, I agree. The size is great. It does no pun intended. Facilitate that collaboration and communication. You mentioned a number of attendees about one hundred forty vendors, and you can hear the noise behind soon. MIAs were in the ex ball in the booth of five nine and lots of conversations going on. This is an event that I find very interesting state because we talk about the contact center were all consumers every day. And we talked about this with a lot of our guests yesterday that the customer experience is absolutely table stakes for an organization, that it's essential to deliver an Omni Channel customer experience meeting with the consumer wherever they want to be and also facilitating a connected conversation so that if a shot is initiated and then the consumer goes to social or makes a phone call, that problem resolution is actually moving forward before we get into. Today's key knows a couple of really interesting things that you and I learned yesterday with some of the guests that we had on when we were talking with Blair Pleasant. One of the things that she and five nine uncovered with some research is that an employee's satisfaction was lower on the ratings for a lot of corporate decision makers, which was surprising from a collab and communications perspective that if employees, especially those agents on the front line, are having some challenges, it's going to be directly relating Tio customer Lifetime Value. >> Yeah, it was a little bit surprising, you know, if you think about just in general, you know, often the admin is not the key focus there. It's I need to get business outcomes. I need to get R. A Y. You know what I care about is, you know, how is my customer doing? But at the end of the day, you talk about the contact centers. If I don't have an agent that's engaged, really, how is that conversation going to go with the customer? So they need to think about that, You know? How will the technology help them do their job? Better help them game mastery faster? There were some things that I saw really parallel toe conversation we're having about cloud in general, which is, you know, there's lots of technologies out there, but it's often it's not the technology issue it is, you know, the organization and the people issue in the keynote this morning there was a big customer panel and that was definitely something we heard. I love one of the customers actually said We're going to make all these changes And they had the Don't panic towels, which, of course, harkens back to The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy S O. You know, we know things are going to change. There might be some things you need to work through. But don't worry, we're there to help on. We will get through this and at the end, it should be better. >> No, I like that. You brought that up. I love that Tabal. Don't panic because, you know, we were talking yesterday a lot about the customer experience, the expectations of this rising, empowered consumer also the agent experience. But then, of course, there's the internal collaboration that's essential to all of this. And as I think, the gentleman that you're referring to was from Continental G talking about Hey, we don't have all the answers. But adoption of these tools internally is critical, but it's also a cultural sort of stepwise process. I thought that was very cool, that they actually were very transparent with their people. We identify this is not going to be smooth sailing, but it's an essential part of our business growth. >> Yeah, I tell you, it was really interesting. Listen, the panel there was one of the companies up there. They're pretty large and they said, Look, we're going to standardize on a single tool and everybody's going to get on board. And I actually bristled a little bit when I heard that because, you know, the engineering group versus the marketing group versus you know, the Contact Centre. There's certain things that they need to be able to collaborate. But thing like, you know, one tool to rule them all. You know, it sounds a little bit tough out there. Yes, there needs to be some standardization, but, you know, we see that in the cloud world. You know, it turns out customers are using multiple clouds out there because there should be a main one that we focus on. But if I need a best of breed piece for here, or if there's ah, feature functionality, they can't get elsewhere. I need tohave that, and we see that at this show there's just such a diverse ecosystem meant, and there's one hundred forty there's people that make device. There's all these software pieces, there's some big hubs. And then there are all the ancillary things that help plug and enhance and do this because there is some great innovation going on here. Some cool software, things that we're hoping toe, you know, take everything from, you know, White Board and voice two speech and globalization to the next phase. >> Yeah, that was very interesting. Especially the Microsoft teams demo. That Lori writing team this morning, The panel Now that you talked about, there were seven, uh, customers from a variety of industries. Kurtz was their continental. We mentioned, I think, paychecks. I'm curious to get your thoughts on when they were talking about their plans to migrate to cloud, all in some percentage, considering the numbers that we heard yesterday stew in terms of the cloud penetration for the contact center market, what were your thoughts? They're about those things. All in Depends on what makes sense. >> Yeah, It reminds me of what we were talking about in the public loud discussion two years ago. Way No cloud is growing at a very fast pace. Look at our friend here at five. Nine they were growing at a much faster pace, then the contact center. Overall, I believe they're growing somewhere twenty five percent as opposed The industry as a whole is growing at about nine percent. So we understand that cloud is growing faster than the market overall. And it was one of moderated. The panel said that today is about a third, a third, a third on premises hybrid in public and where that kind of steady state will be. I think it's still too early to tell in this industry, just as it is in cloud overall. But absolutely I burst a little bit when it's like, Well, you will never do this one this way. Well, you know, never is not something that we like to say in it because you never know when when that will be possible. You know, my background I worked on virtual ization, started out in test Devon. It reached a point where really there was no technical reasons that it couldn't do it when he rolled. The really large companies will never use cloud for it. Really. Who is better it scaling and updating and making sure you can manage an environment then those hyper scale players. You know, Microsoft got a big present here. You don't ask him. Like her soft customer. Uh oh. You're running off his three sixty five. You're living on Azure. What version of that are you running? And do you have the latest security patch as opposed to? If I have a Windows desktop and I'm not doing up a weight, have I done my patron? If I Donald this stuff and you amplify that by thousands of you know of agents and Contact Center, we know that Cloud has certain speed, agility and being up to get new features and updates in there that I just can't do nearly as well if it is something that I am installing and having to maintain myself or with a service organization, >> right? And so we talked yesterday with the number of guests about what are some of the imperatives to move to cloud in the end, the sum of the non obvious ones cost obviously, is one that we talk about all the time rights to it. Any show that we're at, but also the opportunity for businesses to leverage the burgeoning power of a I. Of course, every show we go Teo Isa Buzzword Machine learning. And of course, the cloud provides the opportunity for there to be more data to train the machines to be better at context and her overall. And, of course, internal communications. >> Right. And something that I like to hear at this show is start talking about a PC compatibility. You talk about the partnerships that are going on, It is not one software stack we're talking about platforms. We're talking about how integrations can happen so that if somebody has the cool new thing that does, you know, a real time engagement better than what I had before. Well, I could probably plug that in, and it's going to work on my platform. You know, everybody here talks about Well, whether you're, you know, a web, acts of Microsoft teams a zoom shop O r. You know any of those various environment, other? Everybody's working across those environments. We've had some standardisation here s O so that whichever one I've chosen, I'm not locked into one environment. And you know, I can help modernized the pieces as a need and take advantage of those new innovations when they come >> Absolutely all right. So, stew, you're a man on the street last night. Tell us some of the interesting things that you heard in some of the folks that you met Way. >> It's interesting. We think we talked about it in our open yesterday. There are a number of companies that have been around for a while And what are they doing today? What is their focus? And couple of companies have done rebranding. So the big party there was a line and I managed to get myself in. Is Polly So Polly has rebranded? Of course it was Polycom and Plantronics coming together. How many times we hear it on the keynote stage that they mentioned that everywhere you go, they're branding is there, So look kudos to their branding and messaging team. We're going to have their CEO on the programme tomorrow, but, you know, you know, the CEO talked about, you know, their new logo. It's like the meaning behind it. Of course, Polly means many, but there's three piece, and if you look at it, it looks like the iconic conference phone. So, you know the room was in there. Everybody is enjoying the appetizers and the open bar. But, you know, there was people, people, no polycom. I'm back in our conference room. We've got one of those speaker phones in there in the nineties. I usedto, you know, sell their conference phones in their video conferencing When I worked for was now a via but was lucid at the time. So there's a lot of intersections. Thie. Other thing I've really found is it feels like everybody here, you know, at one point in their career either work for Cisco or worked for, you know, the Lucent family. You know, of course, T back in the day had the whole telecom space, but it is like many other shows. We go to a rather interconnected community here on DH. You know, we'd guess on It's like, Oh, yeah, Cisco, Skype. And now at five nines. Yeah, it is friendly. You don't see some of the, you know, some of the places we go There's bitter rivalries between, you know, key competitors, and yeah, while you know, all the contact centers don't love, you know that they're there. Brothers and sisters, a two competitors there. Chances are they've worked with half the people there on, you know, Sometimes the future will be working with again. So it's it's a it's a good atmosphere. The people I've talked to really enjoy coming to the show, a Zoe said at the top. >> And this show has evolved over the last night. We were talking about yesterday twenty eight, twenty nine years, starting out as being called PBX and then re branding to Voice Con and then in about twenty eleven to Enterprise Connect. And it was interesting that because the word innovation comes up all the time, as does evolution of communications and collaborations. But when the king it was his kicked off this morning they talked about This is the biggest ever enterprise connect that they've had. So you can feel and you can hear it behind us the momentum, the excitement he talked about. There's a lot of cover artery here. There's a lot of two degrees of separation and tech, but the opportunities for every business, whether yours selling a small particles service on the Amazon marketplace or you're a big a global enterprise, the opportunity to connect and deliver a superior a competitive advantage to your customer experience. This table stakes these days if you don't have that opportunity. Those capabilities. There's going to be something that's going to come and replace you in a heartbeat. >> Yeah, absolutely. At least I have a background in space. But there were places where our walk Drano said, Wow, there's applicability for our business. I mean, we use a number of the collaboration Sweets, You know, I mentioned, I've got I've got maps for, you know, not just the Google sweet, but all the collaboration tools on there's technology that I'm like Gucci. I want to understand that a lot of them are downloaded an app. You can start using them for free. And then there's a Freeman model and and others arm or enterprise licenses on. It's been interesting to watch some of that dynamic as to, you know, it is the pricing. Is Mohr built for the mobile and cloud world than the traditional? You know, I'm going to buy boxes and have a huge capital expense up front. So >> what do you think if you look back to your early days in the call center when you were just a young pup, how much easier your job have been? If you had had some of the capabilities that we're talking about >> now least I wish, you know, back in the nineties, you know, if I just had linked in alone, I could have supercharged s o much of what I did. But all these other tools, right? Putting at my fingertips information. It was like, you know, Lisa tell you date myself in the nineties and taking a call where everybody that works in the call center You knew the area code of every single environment that it didn't tell you where it wass you would be like, Oh, yeah, I, too want to hide in New York. How you doing? You could be whether you're saying good morning or good afternoon based on what part it was like. Oh, wait, I'm talking Arizona. They don't follow daylight savings time. We'd remember all that stuff today. There's too many exchanges. Everybody takes their phone numbers wherever they go. S o it was It was a smaller country back then. But in the other hand, the technology is actually going to give us the opportunity to be ableto imbue that allow humans to focus on the empathy and connectedness that today's digital age sometimes tries to tear away from us. >> Exactly. We need that empathy in that connectedness. So, stew, we have a great program today. Stick around. We've got some folks from Selah Jin we've got. It's now on the programme within communications Fuse. Tetra VX five nine, of course. And there in that little and zoom this afternoon. Yes, thank you. Five O'Clock for student a man. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the Cube.

>> Live from Orlando, Florida It's the Cube covering Enterprise Connect twenty nineteen brought to you by five nine. >> Welcome back to the cubes. Continuing coverage of Day one of Enterprise Connect twenty nineteen in Orlando. I'm Lisa Martin with my co host student a man. And we're excited to be joined by a first time member visitor to the cue. Bryan can the CMO at five nine. Ryan, welcome to the Q. >> Thank you. Good to be here. Thanks for having me. >> Well, thanks for having the Cuban the five nine booth context. There was a service. Tell us a little bit about first of all this event, this event is as to when they were talking about about twenty eight twenty nine years. Lots of evolution from your perspective. Today, what is enterprised connect twenty nineteen. And what opportunities This is going to provide somebody like yourself in terms of the modern marketing. >> Yeah, it's really interesting. Modern markings obviously evolved cms cr m contacts and are all part of the modern marketer. I think this show really proves out how much that modern marketing idea the spaces expanded this my first time here. It's amazing. See, all the companies, all sorts of different technologies, they're coming to market and some have been here for a while. >> One of the things I find really interesting is that you know, we're all consumers everyday way. Want to transact things on our phones, tablets, video chat, this idea of Omni Channel, where the consumer is so empowered way sort of bring these demands to the surface of whatever my problem is, if I'm trying to transact something or I'm trying to get information on mortgage a pre approval or something, I want to be ableto have a company, be able to follow my conversation regardless of channel, and then have enough data to take action on in a timely manner. Where, in your thoughts, from a modern marketing perspective, where are we in terms of maturation of like integrated Omni Channel? >> Yeah, that's a great question. I think we're finally at a mature, pointed technology where we can start to meet the demands of the consumer that salutations with consumer. Obviously, that's the dream scenario for everyone have follow me on my terms, not on the company's terms, I think five nine, we want to make sure that no matter where your customers or your prospect is that we're there to meet them on there, they're channel whether it would be >> so, Ryan, when I look around, a show like this cloud is something that has really transformed what this was. You know, I've looked at what watch? Really? From the end of the early days of companies like sales force, you've got some background there. A cz too, You know the enterprise. Is it OK? Can I trust it? Today? Cloud is here. It's not going anywhere. Major piece of the landscape when you're talking, you're customers, you know? How does that fit into the environment? You know, have they gotten over some of the, you know, kind of legacy it mindset of, you know, because I'm not sure if I'm safe to go out there, >> that is we're at a critical point right now where the contacts and her started. Out of all, a lot of the companies have built on from contact centers are starting to age out. What we're hearing from our customers is that the cloud is has never been more important. And the reason because of that is the data that they're collecting from all their different touchpoints. How do you collect it? How to use it together? How do you make it coherent and make it into a clear plan. The only way you could get the data out is to have it all in the clouds. >> So, Brian, I'm glad you brought up data because when we look at our research, data is at the center of everything. Obviously majorly important cloud. I can't have a I if it's not for the data. Exactly. I think back to you know, my first job out of college, I worked in a call centre. We talked about data being important way talked about. Oh, we're goingto have a database that's going to help you get your customer's information fast. That was back in the nineties. Yeah, it's very different today. Can you talk about how things are different today when we talk about data? How does that drive your businesses? Five nine. And your role is the CMO today. >> Yeah, well, the first thing about five nine is that we have over five billion minutes of data. Conversational data data has evolved over time. Early on, we had a lot of what we call operational data data that says how many people have flickering website how many people have viewed impressions and things of that nature five nine with really interesting is this. Things that we talked about is contextual data where your customers asking for where they want. They're literally on the phone telling you what's wrong. So that meantime, two resolutions really important. But if you start to look at that data deeper, you can start to predict what your customers are looking for from her services from your products. I think that's what's really gonna be transformational. And as a marketer, I've spent a lifetime looking at that user data and always under trying to ask the question, what our customers saying where they want behind the data. And now we're starting to look at that and marrying those two data sets together. I think that's gonna be the next evolution of data. And that's why I think at five nine, that conversational data, along with operational data as a marker that's really important with Ford. >> So one of the things that I'm interested in is you have a lot of organizations in any industry that are reactive. They want to get too proactive and eventually to predictive what some of the things that an organization, whether it's a telco or a financial services organization. How can they remove some of the barriers in the way between a contact center and those customers so that they can glean those actionable insights in a timely manner? >> Yeah, I mean, it's really about the connection between your earlier question about why the context is so important. You see all the companies here, they're starting to be more and more companies driving into this space, really looking at a I. So the two things that we've touched upon already is the power of the cloud Howard. The data part of a eye to look at all that data and make certain prediction certain conclusions from that data so that you can start to have a clear path to your customer and react faster. It's all about zero distance to your customer. >> Ryan, Can you bring us in the customer experience? I think you know, we've all had, and it put times as a consumer where you're frustrated. I can't buy stuff on the Web site. I've called, you know, interactive voice response or not my favorite thing to deal with. So, you know, if companies aren't using solutions like yours, you know what are they in danger of, >> well, your customers? Their prospects are really the heart of every business right, and part of that is, your brand is really important in those moments when they need you the most. And when they're reaching out, contact me through email as a mask were on the phone. Your brand is that could be at express, but also at its most vulnerable. And that's where the contact center your agents. That experience is crucial to the overall customer experience. You have one bad phone conversation. You have one bad SMS. Your brand is really at risk and your brand if it's at risk. So is your business, because consumers have more choice than they've ever had before. >> One of the things owned stories do you, when you're talking with customers that you say, You know, you have to look at every customer interaction as possibly your last, but also as an opportunity to delight that customer and drive an increase in customer lifetime value. Do you talk to me? Talk to customers, but you gotta look at it through both lenses. >> Yes, I mean, if you don't look at the that's the contextual data, that's the context in which you serve your customers Now five nine. Nothing's more important than the customer, and we always try to make sure the human part interaction never leaves. As technology keeps on expanding, we have to imagine we have to imagine ourselves in our customer seat. Was it like to be on that phone call? Was it like to be on that interaction? And how do you provide companies a platform to be better and better and better have the same Better, Better never best, which is this idea of always evolving. Never feel like you achieve something. Always try to get better. >> Ryan, your your your businesses Cloud based. One of the things about the cloud is usually talking about rather than just something that I install and might have maintenance on. It is something that paying for every month and every year, and therefore I need to maintain a relationship with the customer because otherwise, you know, they could just say, Well, why am I paying for this? Can you talk about the relationship you have with your customers? You know how you make sure that you're giving them, you know, not just a day one experience, but an ongoing experience that grows? >> Yeah, I think. Four five nine customer experience. We're in the customer experience business, and so it's really important. We know that our technology is only a successful is the people who adopted and use it. That's where the technology comes to life. So we want. Make sure that we only sell our product way, help you install it. We help you go through the change management, which is critical. If you don't have your agents involved and they're having a hard time adopting your technology, that means that they're focused on that and not the consumer, not your customer base. So five now we want make sure from beginning to end you are held to our high standard of customer service, which is like this five Blue Star customer service. >> Soon I talked about that and our intro. It's not just ensuring that on organization can facilitate on me ten or ensuring that the customer experience it's table stakes these days. It has to be delivered as a effectively as possible, but it's also the agents who are on the front lines were dealing with. Let's face it, oftentimes if we're calling in or we've used multiple channels. There's maybe an escalation that we're not getting the resolution that we want. So where do you guys have those conversations with? It's not just about implementing cloud technology and Tech Center as service, but it's also about the training and the enablement, an empowerment of the agents to have the data to make those decisions because they're on the front lines. >> Absolutely correct. And that's why we've renamed our platform the genius platform, because we feel that every agent should be a genius at what they're being asked to do. Way won't make them feel confident about the information at the fingertips so that they can focus on the empathy. Five Nine believes that the technology is just a part of it, as I've said before, but really, it's the combination between the change management agent, the customer, the answers and the questions. It's all those things combined. Way won't make that easy for the agent to deliver Amazing touch points for your company, >> right where that that's a great point, because when you talk about, I have automation. I have intelligent, even robotics helping in there. I need that person where I'm not gonna have that empathy. So weigh. >> See that our MPs scores. The Asian experience is critical, right? So we really focus our platform and delivering that for the agent. But the other side to is making sure you can gain the insights from these conversations and delivering it back to the business, because we feel that that's a ZAY said earlier. That's the next evolution of data. Is pulling out that contextual data and marrying it with all your different data sets >> you brought up NPS. I'm curious. Do you have any way of measuring, You know, customers that used your solution versus customers that might have been doing things the old way? Is there a bump in NPS? Is there a bump in retention of agents? How do you measure success? >> Yeah, we take both MPs for our customers, and I know our customers take MPs for their agents and their customers. And when you use five nine, those numbers obviously go up. When you start measuring something, people really, if you analyze it, it will happen. So what we see is a huge adoption of making sure that the customer empathy the customers at the focus >> so last couple questions here, Ryan. You guys had a good amount of enterprise growth and f y eighteen. In fact, they stay large growth in customers with a million in a our annual recurring revenue when your fastest growing Saigon's enterprise. You know, small, medium size businesses often have the same challenges. But I'm wondering if you're seeing any sort of early adopters from an industry perspective, financial services, health care, anything or do you see that it's fairly horizontal and organizations that have to reach that consumer? >> It's fairly horizontal. I think the definition will contact center is obviously expanding. People are really focusing on customer experience, and they're certain to realize that Contact Center is a competitive advantage. If you deliver great customary experience, you do deliver great brand loyalty, and that just means your customers will continue to come to you, trust your brand and ask for more services. And that's obviously way. All know it's easier to retain a customer, then is to find anyone. So we think that is a huge advantage, and we're seeing that across the enterprise they're sending, realized this is a huge difference when everything else is the same. Deliver great customer experience, >> right? So, Brian, let me ask the brand question. You know, CMO When people come to enterprise connector, they're reaching out to five nine. What? What is the brand promise? What do you hope people are walking away and understanding about where you fit in the landscape? >> Yeah, I think that when the key things that I want people to understand about five nine is that where about a platform about delivering relationships? It's about It's about the technology we want. Make sure you have ploughed the latest and greatest. We won't make sure features are today. But really, what's important is that service all the way through from implementation to your agents. Happiness here, customer happiness, context. There's a conflict blend technology, people and this interaction with your customers. We will make sure that each part of those are being service, not just a technology, just not a person with the whole life cycle from beginning to end. >> Well, Ryan, thanks so much for joining stew and me on the cue this afternoon and inviting us into the five nine booth and also kind of sending the contacts for the Enterprise Connect twenty nineteen event that we really appreciate your time. >> Thank you for having me. It's been great. >> Hirsute men. A man. I'm Lisa Martin, your Washington Cube lying from day one of our coverage of enterprise Connect twenty nineteen.