(upbeat music) >> Welcome back everyone to theCUBEs live coverage in San Francisco for VMware Explorer. I'm John Furrier with my host, Dave Vellante. Two sets, three days of wall to wall coverage. This is day two. We got a great guest, Scott Baker, CMO at IBM, VP of Infrastructure at IBM. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >> Hey, good to see you guys as well. It's always a pleasure. >> ()Good time last night at your event? >> Great time last night. >> It was really well-attended. IBM always has the best food so that was good and great props, magicians, and it was really a lot of fun, comedians. Good job. >> Yeah, I'm really glad you came on. One of the things we were chatting, before we came on camera was, how much changed. We've been covering IBM storage days, back on the Edge days, and they had the event. Storage is the center of all the conversations, cyber security- >> ()Right? >> ... But it's not just pure cyber. It's still important there. And just data and the role of multi-cloud and hybrid cloud and data and security are the two hottest areas, that I won't say unresolved, but are resolving themselves. And people are talking. It's the most highly discussed topics. >> Right. >> ()Those two areas. And it's just all on storage. >> Yeah, it sure does. And in fact, what I would even go so far as to say is, people are beginning to realize the importance that storage plays, as the data custodian for the organization. Right? Certainly you have humans that are involved in setting strategies, but ultimately whatever those policies are that get applied, have to be applied to a device that must act as a responsible custodian for the data it holds. >> So what's your role at IBM and the infrastructure team? Storage is one only one of the areas. >> ()Right. >> You're here at VMware Explore. What's going on here with IBM? Take us through what you're doing there at IBM, and then here at VMware. What's the conversations? >> Sure thing. I have the distinct pleasure to run both product marketing and strategy for our storage line. That's my primary focus, but I also have responsibility for the mainframe software, so the Z System line, as well as our Power server line, and our technical support organization, or at least the services side of our technical support organization. >> And one of the things that's going on here, lot of noise going on- >> Is that a bird flying around? >> Yeah >> We got fire trucks. What's changed? 'Cause right now with VMware, you're seeing what they're doing. They got the Platform, Under the Hood, Developer focus. It's still an OPS game. What's the relationship with VMware? What are you guys talking about here? What are some of the conversations you're having here in San Francisco? >> Right. Well, IBM has been a partner with VMware for at least the last 20 years. And VMware does, I think, a really good job about trying to create a working space for everyone to be an equal partner with them. It can be challenging too, if you want to sort of throw out your unique value to a customer. So one of the things that we've really been working on is, how do we partner much stronger? When we look at the customers that we support today, what they're looking for isn't just a solid product. They're looking for a solid ecosystem partnership. So we really lean in on that 20 years of partnership experience that we have with IBM. So one of the things that we announced was actually being one of the first VMware partners to bring both a technical innovation delivery mechanism, as well as technical services, alongside VMware technologies. I would say that was one of the first things that we really leaned in on, as we looked out at what customers are expecting from us. >> So I want to zoom out a little bit and talk about the industry. I've been following IBM since the early 1980s. It's trained in the mainframe market, and so we've seen, a lot of things you see come back to the mainframe, but we won't go there. But prior to Arvind coming on, it seemed like, okay, storage, infrastructure, yeah it's good business, and we'll let it throw off some margin. That's fine. But it's all about services and software. Okay, great. With Arvind, and obviously Red Hat, the whole focus shift to hybrid. We were talking, I think yesterday, about okay, where did we first hear hybrid? Obviously we heard that a lot from VMware. I heard it actually first, early on anyway, from IBM, talking hybrid. Some of the storage guys at the time. Okay, so now all of a sudden there's the realization that to make hybrid work, you need software and hardware working together. >> () Right. So it's now a much more fundamental part of the conversation. So when you look out, Scott, at the trends you're seeing in the market, when you talk to customers, what are you seeing and how is that informing your strategy, and how are you bringing together all the pieces? >> That's a really awesome question because it always depends on who, within the organization, you're speaking to. When you're inside the data center, when you're talking to the architects and the administrators, they understand the value in the necessity for a hybrid-cloud architecture. Something that's consistent. On The Edge, On-Prem, in the cloud. Something that allows them to expand the level of control that they have, without having to specialize on equipment and having to redo things as you move from one medium to the next. As you go upstack in that conversation, what I find really interesting is how leaders are beginning to realize that private cloud or on-prem, multi cloud, super cloud, whatever you call it, whatever's in the middle, those are just deployment mechanisms. What they're coming to understand is it's the applications and the data that's hybrid. And so what they're looking for IBM to deliver, and something that we've really invested in on the infrastructure side is, how do we create bidirectional application mobility? Making it easy for organizations, whether they're using containers, virtual machines, just bare metal, how do they move that data back and forth as they need to, and not just back and forth from on-prem to the cloud, but effectively, how do they go from cloud to cloud? >> Yeah. One of the things I noticed is your pin, says I love AI, with the I next to IBM and get all these (indistinct) in there. AI, remember the quote from IBM is, "You can't have AI without IA." Information architect. >> () Right. >> () Rob Thomas. >> Rob Thomas (indistinct) the sound bites. But that brings up the point about machine learning and some of these things that are coming down the like, how is your area devolving the smarts and the brains around leveraging the AI in the systems itself? We're hearing more and more softwares being coded into the hardware. You see Silicon advances. All this is kind of, not changing it, but bringing back the urgency of, hardware matters. >> That's right. >> () At the same time, it's still software too. >> That's right. So let's connect a couple of dots here. We talked a little bit about the importance of cyber resiliency, and let's talk about a little bit on how we use AI in that matter. So, if you look at the direct flash modules that are in the market today, or the SSDs that are in the market today, just standard-capacity drives. If you look at the flash core modules that IBM produces, we actually treat that as a computational storage offering, where you store the data, but it's got intelligence built into the processor, to offload some of the responsibilities of the controller head. The ability to do compression, single (indistinct), deduplication, you name it. But what if you can apply AI at the controller level, so that signals that are being derived by the flash core module itself, that look anomalous, can be handed up to an intelligence to say, "Hey, I'm all of a sudden getting encrypted rights from a host that I've never gotten encrypted rights for. Maybe this could be a problem." And then imagine if you connect that inferencing engine to the rest of the IBM portfolio, "Hey, Qradar. Hey IBM Guardian. What's going on on the network? Can we see some correlation here?" So what you're going to see IBM infrastructure continue to do is invest heavily into entropy and the ability to measure IO characteristics with respect to anomalous behavior and be able to report against that. And the trick here, because the array technically doesn't know if it's under attack or if the host just decided to turn on encryption, the trick here is using the IBM product relationships, and ecosystem relationships, to do correlation of data to determine what's actually happening, to reduce your false positives. >> And have that pattern of data too. It's all access to data too. Big time. >> That's right. >> And that innovation comes out of IBM R&D? Does it come out of the product group? Is it IBM research that then trickles its way in? Is it the storage innovation? Where's that come from? Where's that bubble up? That partnership? >> Well, I got to tell you, it doesn't take very long in this industry before your counterpart, your competitor, has a similar feature. Right? So we're always looking for, what's the next leg? What's the next advancement that we can make? We knew going into this process, that we had plenty of computational power that was untapped on the FPGA, the processor running on the flash core module. Right? So we thought, okay, well, what should we do next? And we thought, "Hey, why not just set this thing up to start watching IO patterns, do calculations, do trending, and report that back?" And what's great about what you brought up too, John, is that it doesn't stay on the box. We push that upstack through the AIOPS architecture. So if you're using Turbonomic, and you want to look applications stack down, to know if you've got threat potential, or your attack surface is open, you can make some changes there. If you want to look at it across your infrastructure landscape with a storage insight, you could do that. But our goal here is to begin to make the machine smarter and aware of impacts on the data, not just on the data they hold onto, but usage, to move it into the appropriate tier, different write activities or read activities or delete activities that could indicate malicious efforts that are underway, and then begin to start making more autonomous, how about managed autonomous responses? I don't want to turn this into a, oh, it's smart, just turn it on and walk away and it's good. I don't know that we'll ever get there just yet, but the important thing here is, what we're looking at is, how do we continually safeguard and protect that data? And how do we drive features in the box that remove more and more of the day to day responsibility from the administrative staff, who are technically hired really, to service and solve for bigger problems in the enterprise, not to be a specialist and have to manage one box at a time. >> Dave mentioned Arvind coming on, the new CEO of IBM, and the Red Hat acquisition and that change, I'd like to get your personal perspective, or industry perspective, so take your IBM-hat off for a second and put the Scott-experience-in-the-industry hat on, the transformation at the customer level right now is more robust, to use that word. I don't want to say chaotic, but it is chaotic. They say chaos in the cloud here at VM, a big part of their messaging, but it's changing the business model, how things are consumed. You're seeing new business models emerge. So IBM has this lot of storage old systems, you're transforming, the company's transforming. Customers are also transforming, so that's going to change how people market products. >> () Right. >> For example, we know that developers and DevOps love self-service. Why? Because they don't want to install it. Let me go faster. And they want to get rid of it, doesn't work. Storage is infrastructure and still software, so how do you see, in your mind's eye, with all your experience, the vision of how to market products that are super important, that are infrastructure products, that have to be put into play, for really new architectures that are going to transform businesses? It's not as easy as saying, "Oh, we're going to go to market and sell something." The old way. >> () Right. >> This shifting happening is, I don't think there's an answer yet, but I want to get your perspective on that. Customers want to hear the storage message, but it might not be speeds and fees. Maybe it is. Maybe it's not. Maybe it's solutions. Maybe it's security. There's multiple touch points now, that you're dealing with at IBM for the customer, without becoming just a storage thing or just- >> () Right. >> ... or just hardware. I mean, hardware does matter, but what's- >> Yeah, no, you're absolutely right, and I think what complicates that too is, if you look at the buying centers around a purchase decision, that's expanded as well, and so as you engage with a customer, you have to be sensitive to the message that you're telling, so that it touches the needs or the desires of the people that are all sitting around the table. Generally what we like to do when we step in and we engage, isn't so much to talk about the product. At some point, maybe later in the engagements, the importance of speeds, feeds, interconnectivity, et cetera, those do come up. Those are a part of the final decision, but early on it's really about outcomes. What outcomes are you delivering? This idea of being able to deliver, if you use the term zero trust or cyber-resilient storage capability as a part of a broader security architecture that you're putting into place, to help that organization, that certainly comes up. We also hear conversations with customers about, or requests from customers about, how do the parts of IBM themselves work together? Right? And I think a lot of that, again, continues to speak to what kind of outcome are you going to give to me? Here's a challenge that I have. How are you helping me overcome it? And that's a combination of IBM hardware, software, and the services side, where we really have an opportunity to stand out. But the thing that I would tell you, that's probably most important is, the engagement that we have up and down the stack in the market perspective, always starts with, what's the outcome that you're going to deliver for me? And then that drags with it the story that would be specific to the gear. >> Okay, so let's say I'm a customer, and I'm buying it to zero trust architecture, but it's going to be somewhat of a long term plan, but I have a tactical need. I'm really nervous about Ransomware, and I don't feel as though I'm prepared, and I want an outcome that protects me. What are you seeing? Are you seeing any patterns? I know it's going to vary, but are you seeing any patterns, in terms of best practice to protect me? >> Man, the first thing that we wanted to do at IBM is divorce ourselves from the company as we thought through this. And what I mean by that is, we wanted to do what's right, on day zero, for the customer. So we set back using the experience that we've been able to amass, going through various recovery operations, and helping customers get through a Ransomware attack. And we realized, "Hey. What we should offer is a free cyber resilience assessment." So we like to, from the storage side, we'd like to look at what we offer to the customer as following the NIST framework. And most vendors will really lean in hard on the response and the recovery side of that, as you should. But that means that there's four other steps that need to be addressed, and that free cyber-resilience assessment, it's a consultative engagement that we offer. What we're really looking at doing is helping you assess how vulnerable you are, how big is that attack surface? And coming out of that, we're going to give you a Vendor Agnostic Report that says here's your situation, here's your grade or your level of risk and vulnerability, and then here's a prioritized roadmap of where we would recommend that you go off and start solving to close up whatever the gaps or the risks are. Now you could say, "Hey, thanks, IBM. I appreciate that. I'm good with my storage vendor today. I'm going to go off and use it." Now, we may not get some kind of commission check. We may not sell the box. But what I do know is that you're going to walk away knowing the risks that you're in, and we're going to give you the recommendations to get started on closing those up. And that helps me sleep at night. >> That's a nice freebie. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, it really is, 'cause you guys got deep expertise in that area. So take advantage of that. >> Scott, great to have you on. Thanks for spending time out of your busy day. Final question, put a plug in for your group. What are you communicating to customers? Share with the audience here. You're here at VMware Explorer, the new rebranded- >> () Right? >> ... multi-cloud, hybrid cloud, steady state. There are three levels of transformation, virtualization, hybrid cloud, DevOps, now- >> Right? >> ... multi-cloud, so they're in chapter three of their journey- >> That's right. >> Really innovative company, like IBM, so put the plugin. What's going on in your world? Take a minute to explain what you want. >> Right on. So here we are at VMware Explorer, really excited to be here. We're showcasing two aspects of the IBM portfolio, all of the releases and announcements that we're making around the IBM cloud. In fact, you should come check out the product demonstration for the IBM Cloud Satellite. And I don't think they've coined it this, but I like to call it the VMware edition, because it has all of the VMware services and tools built into it, to make it easier to move your workloads around. We certainly have the infrastructure side on the storage, talking about how we can help organizations, not only accelerate their deployments in, let's say Tanzu or Containers, but even how we help them transform the application stack that's running on top of their virtualized environment in the most consistent and secure way possible. >> Multiple years of relationships with VMware. IBM, VMware together. Congratulations. >> () That's right. >> () Thanks for coming on. >> Hey, thanks (indistinct). Thank you very much. >> A lot more live coverage here at Moscone west. This is theCUBE. I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante. Thanks for watching. Two more days of wall-to-wall coverage continuing here. Stay tuned. (soothing music)

(modern music) >> Welcome back, everyone to theCUBE's live coverage here in San Francisco for VMware Explore, formerly VMworld. theCUBE's been here 12 years today, we've been watching the evolution of the user conference. It's been quite a journey to see and, you know, virtualization just explode. We got two great guests here, we're going to break it all down. Ash McCarty, director of Multicloud Product Management Dell Technologies, no stranger to the VMworld, now VMware Explore, and Josh Prewitt, Chief Product Officer at Rackspace Technology. Great to see you guys, thanks for coming on. >> Absolutely. >> Yeah, thanks so much, thanks for having us. >> So, you know, the theme this year is multicloud, but it's really all about vSphere 8's out, you got VxRail, you got containers, you got the magic going on around cloud native, which it really points to the future state of where this is going, which is agile enterprises, infrastructure as code, high performance under the hood, I mean, all the things that you guys have been doing for many, many years and decades and business, but now with VMware putting it all together, it feels like, this year, it's like you got visibility into the value proposition, people have clear line of sight into where the performances are from the hardware software and now Cloud, it's kind of coming together, feels like it's coming together. Let's talk about that and the relationship between you guys, Rackspace and Dell and VMware. >> Perfect. That sounds great. Well, thanks so much for having us. You know, I'll sort of kick that off. We've got a huge lifelong partnership and relationship with Dell and VMware and the technologies that these guys create that we're able to put in front of our customers are really what allows us to go drive those business outcomes. So, yeah, happy to dive into it. >> Yeah, and I think to add to that, we understand that customers have a tremendously complex challenge ahead of them on managing their infrastructure. That's why with VxRail, we have intelligent infrastructure. We want it to simplify the outcomes for customers no matter if they're managing VMware or if they're managing the actual hardware infrastructure underneath it. >> Yeah, one of the things that we always talk about, you know, you read about it on the blogs and the news and the startup world, is "Oh, product-market fit," and, well, it kind of applies here, if you think about what's going on on the product side with the Edge emerging, hybrid cloud on pace with private cloud, and obviously, cloud native is great too if you have native applications in there, but now, putting it all together, you're hearing things like the telco cloud, I hear buzzwords like that, I hear supercloud, which we promoting, which you see in companies becoming cloud themselves, with the CapEx being handled by either public cloud or optimized on premise or hosted hardware. I mean, this is now, this is not all about everything's going to the cloud, this is now cloud operations on premise and in hosting hardware, so I'd love to get your perspective on that because you guys are huge hosting, you've got huge experience there, modernizing all the time. What does the modern era look like for the customer? >> Yeah, yeah, so, I mean, I think it's very clear to everybody that it's a multicloud world, right? I think the main question is, are you multicloud as a strategy, or are you multicloud as a situation? Because everybody's multicloud. That ship has sailed, right? >> Yeah, exactly. >> And so, when I look at the capabilities that we have with the partnership with Dell and the VxRail technologies, you know, life-cycle management that you have to go and perform across your fleet can be extremely difficult, and whenever you take something like the VxRail and you add, you know, you have the hardware and you have the software all fully integrated there, it makes it much easier to do life-cycle management, so for a company like Rackspace, where we have tens of thousands of nodes that we're managing for customers across 29 global data centers, and we're all over the place, the ability to have that strength with Dell's hardware, the VMware platform improve life-cycle management makes it so much easier for us to manage our fleet and be able to deliver those outcomes even faster for customers. >> So assuming that VxRail isn't a virtual railroad that delivers data to Rackspace data centers, if it's not that, what is it, Ash? Give us a little premier on what VxRail is. >> Well, VxRail is the first and only jointly engineered HCI system with VMware, so everything we do with VMware is better. >> So hyperconverged infrastructure. >> Hyperconverged infrastructure. >> What we used to call a server because all the bits are in the box, right? >> All the storage is computed in there. >> Everything's in there. Right. >> Simplifies management. And we built in with the VxRail HCI system software, which is really our secret sauce, we built in to actually add those automation capabilities with VMware, so it allows you to scale out very quickly, scale up very quickly. And one of our big capabilities is our life-cycle management, which is full stack, meaning it life-cycles the entire vSphere stack as well as the hardware infrastructure underneath as one continuously validated state, meaning that customers can focus more on their business outcomes and driving their business forward versus spending time managing their infrastructure. >> And when you talk about customers, it's also the value proposition that's flowing through Rackspace because Rackspace, when you install these systems, how long does it take to spin up to have a VM available for use when you install one of these systems? >> Oh, so you can have the system up and running very quickly. So we automate all the day one deployment, so you can have the system up and running in your labs, in your data centers in 45 minutes, and you can have VMs up in provision very shortly after that. >> So what do you do with that kind of agility? >> Oh my gosh, so we've actually taken that, and we've taken the VxRail platform and we've created what we call Rackspace Services for VMware Cloud, and this is our platform that is based on VxRail, it's based on vCloud Director from VMware, and by having the VxRail is already RackStacked, ready to go for our customers, we're able to sign a customer up today, and then, within a matter of minutes, give them access to a vCloud Director portal where they can go in and spin up a new VM anytime they want, but then, it also integrates into all of those cloud management platforms and tools, right? It integrates into your Terraform, so you've got, you know, your full CI/CD pipeline, and so you have that full end-to-end capability. If you want to go click around on a portal, you can using vCloud Director and using vSphere and all that great stuff. If you want to automate it, you can do that too. And we do it all in the backs of that VxRail hyperconverged infrastructure. >> Talk about the DPU dynamic. We're hearing a lot about DPUs. VxRail, you guys have some HCI-like vibe there with DPUs. How is that impacting performance, can you guys see? 'Cause we're hearing a lot of buzz around the VxRail and the VMware DPUs really making things much faster. >> I mean, it's the thing we talk about most with customers now is their challenges with scaling their infrastructure, and VxRail is going to be the first and only jointly engineered system that will have vSphere 8 with DPUs functionality and will have the full life-cycle management, and what this really empowers customers to do is, as they're growing their environments that they're scaling out their workloads in the data center, they need a way to scale to that next generation of networking and network security, and that's what DPUs allow you to do. They give you that offload and that high performance capability. >> Talk about the... I'd love to get your guys' perspective, while we're just riffing on this real quick sidebar for a second, if VxRail has these capabilities which you guys are promoting it does and some of the things go on in the modern era, the next gen apps are going to look a lot different. We're kind of calling it supercloud, if you will, for lack of a better description. Yeah, multicloud is a state, I agree. It's a situation and a state, but supercloud is really the functionality of what cloud does. So what do you guys see as, maybe it's tea leaves reading now or dots connecting, what are some of those next gen apps? I mean the Edge is there with, "Oh, the Edge is going to explode," and I can see the Edge having new kinds of apps that we've never seen before, whether it's on premise building lights and however they work or IoT changing. What do you guys see as the next gen app/apps coming out that's not looking the same as now, or how are apps today changing for next gen? 'Cause you get more performance at the Edge, you get more action, you get more co-locations in GEOS, so it's clear multicloud multi-presence is happening too, right? So what are you guys seeing? What's this... >> Yeah, I would say two areas that resonate most with customers is customers transitioning to their cloud native journey, so beginning it and using things like Tanzu for Kubernetes Operations, which we fully support and have a white paper out there list for customers, another area is really in the AIML space, so we've been partnering with both VMware and Nvidia to simplify how customers deploy new AIML infrastructure. I mean, it's challenging, complex, a lot of customers are wanting to dive in because it really enables them to better operate and operate on insights and analytics they get from running their business. >> Josh? >> And, you know, I think it really comes down to, whether you want to call it Edge or IoT or, you know, smart things, whatever, right? It all comes down to how we are expected, now, to capture all of the data to create a better user experience, and that's what we're seeing the modern applications being built around, right, is how do you leverage all of the data that's now at your fingertips, whether it's from wearables, machine vision, whatever it may be, and drive that improved user experience. And so that's the apps that we're seeing now, right? You know, of course, you still have all your business apps, all your ERP capabilities that need to exist and all of that great stuff, but at the same time, I also expect that, whenever, you know, now, whenever I'm walking into a store and their machine vision picks me up and they're pinging my phone and pushing me push notifications, I expect to have a better user experience. >> And do a database search on you too, by the way. >> Yeah, exactly, right? >> No search warrants out for 'em, you know, you're good. >> That's exactly it, so, you know, you kind of expect that better user experience and that's where I'm seeing a lot of the new app development. >> Yeah, it's fun, as these cases are intoxicating to think about all the weird coolness around it. The thing that I want to get your thoughts on is, we were just talking on the analyst session earlier in theCUBE, if DevOps is here and won, which we believe it has and infrastructure as code is happening, the cloud native discussion, shifting left CI/CD pipeline, that's DevOps in my mind, that's like cloud native developers, that's like traditional IT in my mind, so that's all part of the coding. DataOps and Security Ops seem to be the most robust areas of conversations where that's the new Ops, right? So, I mean, I made the term up, but new Ops, in terms of the focus, what are you making more efficient? What are you optimizing for? What's your guys reaction to that? Because all the conversations that we talk about is data, security, and then the rest seems to be cool, all good on the developer's side. Yeah, shift left events happening up there, Kubernetes containers, but all the action on the Ops side seems to be data and security. >> Yeah. >> What's your reaction to that? Is that right? >> So personally, I do think that it's right. I think that, you know with great power comes great responsibility, right? And so the clouds have brought that to us, all of your infrastructure as code has brought that to us. We have that great power now, right? But then you start to see, kind of, the pipeline attacks that are starting to become more and more popular. And so how you secure something that is as complex as, you know, a cloud native development pipeline is really hard, it's really challenging, so I do think that it warrants the attention. Then on the data side, I think that that matters because when I talked about those examples of a better user experience, I don't want my better user experience tomorrow, I don't want it 20 minutes from now. I want that real time capability, and so with that comes massive requirements from a compute and hardware perspective, massive requirements from a software perspective, and from, you know, what folks are now calling DataOps perspective >> Data addressability, having the data available to be delivered in real time. >> You know, there there's been a lot of talk, here at the conference, about the disaggregation of, you know, the brainularism, if we're going to make up words, you know, the horsepower that's involved, CPU, DPU, GPU. I'll make up another word. We're familiar with the thermometers used during COVID to measure temperature. Pretend that I've invented a device called a Care-o-meter and I'm pointing at various people's foreheads, who needs to care about DPUs and GPUs and CPUs? You know, John was referencing the idea of security at the Edge, data. Well, wow, we've got GPUs that can do things. Who needs to care about that? Obviously, we care about it. You care about it. You care about it. You're building this stuff, you're deploying this stuff, but at what level in the customer stack do they need to care about it? Are you going in, is RackSpace engaging customers and saying, "Look, here's the value proposition: we understand your mission to be this. We believe we can achieve your mission." How far down in the organization do you go before you get to someone where you have to have the DPU conversation? 'Cause we didn't even define DPU yet here, which is always offensive to me. >> I think I defined it actually. >> Did you define DPU? Good. Thank you John. >> Yeah, yeah. >> But so who should care? Who should really care about that? >> Oh, that's such a complex question, right? Because everybody, Rackspace included >> But a good one. But a good question. >> Oh, it's a great question. >> Thank you. >> Great question. (laughing) >> Everybody, Rackspace included, is talking about selling business outcomes, right? And ultimately, that is what matters. It is what matters, is selling those business outcomes to the customer. And so of course we're dealing with our business buyers who are just looking for, "Hey, improve my KPIs, make this run faster, better, stronger, all of that great stuff," but ultimately you get down to an IT staff, and to the IT staff, these things matter because the IT staff, they all have budgets that they have to hit. The realities start to hit them and they can't just go and spend whatever they want, you know, trying to hit the KPIs of the marketing department or the finance department, right? And so you have your business buyers that do care significantly about buying their outcomes, and so we're having, you know, the business outcomes conversations with them and then, oftentimes, they will come back to us and say, "Okay, but now we need you to talk to this person over in our IT organization. We need you to talk with our CIO, with our VP of infrastructure," whatever that may be, where we really get down to the nuts and bolts and we talk about how, you know, we can stretch the hardware coming from Dell, we can stretch the software coming from VMware, and we can deliver a higher caliber experience, a lower TCO, by taking advantage of some of the new technologies coming out. >> Yeah, so there's a reason why I ask that awesome question, and it's because I can imagine a scenario where, and this speaks to RackSpace's position in the market today and moving forward and what your history has been, people want to know, "Well, why should I work with Rackspace instead of some mega-hyper-monster-cloud?" If part of the answer is: well, it's because, for very specific application environments, like healthcare we talked about earlier, that might be a conversation where you're actually bringing in Dell to have a conversation about how you are specifically optimizing hardware and software to achieve things that otherwise can't be achieved with t-shirt sizes of servers in a hyperscale cloud. I mean, is that part of the Rackspace value proposition moving forward, that you can do things like that with partners like Dell that the other folks aren't going to focus on? >> Absolutely, it is, right? And a lot of the power of Rackspace is that, you know, we're the best-in-class pure play cloud solutions provider, and we can talk to you about your AWS, your Azure, your GCP, all of that great stuff, but we can also talk to you about private cloud solutions that are built on the backs of Dell Technologies, and in this multicloud world, you don't have that one size fits all for every single application. There are some things that run great in a hyperscale provider, and we can help you get there, but just exactly like you said, there are these verticals where you have applications that don't necessarily run all that well or they're not modernized, they haven't been refactored to be able to take advantage of cloud native services. And if all you're going to do is run that on bare metal in VMs, a hosted private cloud is, by far, the best way to do that, right? And Rackspace provides that hosted private cloud on the backs of Dell technology, on the backs of VMware technology, and we can go deliver those custom bespoke solutions to customers. >> So the infrastructure and the hardware still matters, Ash, yes? >> Absolutely, and I think he just highlighted, while what he does with his customers and what's important to his internal organization is being to deliver faster outcomes, better outcomes, give those customers, to meet those KPIs of those customers consuming their infrastructure at Rackspace, so I think, really, what the DPU and the underlying infrastructure enables is all that full stack integration to allow them to quickly scale to the demands of those customers and what they need in their infrastructure. >> Guys, while we got you here, what do you think about this year's VMware Explore, a lot of anticipation around how many people are going to show up and, you know, all kinds of things around the new name and Broadcom. Big attendance here, I mean, I was very surprised about the size of the attendance and the show floor, the ecosystem, this train is not stopping. I mean, this is VMware's third act, no matter what the contextual situation is. What's your observation of the show? Do you agree, or is there anything that you could want to share about for folks who didn't make it, what they missed? >> Yeah, I mean it really highlights, I mean, you've seen the breadth of the show, I know people that aren't here that aren't able to see it are really missing the excitement. So there's a lot of great announcements around multicloud, around all the announcements, around the vSphere 8 with the DPUs, the vSAN Express Storage architecture, ton of new exciting technologies that are really empowering how customers, you know, the future of how customers are going to consume their workloads in their data centers. >> Josh, they're not short on products and stuff. A lot of moving parts. vSphere 8, a bunch of new stuff. And the cloud native stuff's looking pretty good too, off the tee. >> You know, it does feel like a focus on the core, though, in a way. So I don't think there's been a lot of peripheral noise at the show. Sometimes it's, you know, "And we got this, and this, and this, and this." It's vSphere 8, vSAN 8, cloud software, you know, really hammering it home and refining it. >> But you don't think of it as a little bit of a circus act. I mean the general keynote was theatrical, I thought, I mean, I thought they did a good job on that. I think vSphere 8 was buried a little bit, I thought they could have... They checked the box at the beginning. >> That's true, that's true. >> I mean, they mentioned it, but we didn't see the demos. You know? Demos are usually great. But that's my only criticism. >> Well, that's why we supplemented it with the VxRail announcements, right? With our big announcements around vSphere 8 and with the DPUs as well as the vSAN Express Storage architecture being integrated into VxRail, so I think, you know, it's always that ongoing partnership and, you know, doing what's best for our customers, showing them the next generation and how they consume that technology. >> Yeah, you guys got good props on VxRail. We had a great chat about it yesterday. Rackspace, you guys doing good? Quick update on what's happening with you guys. Give a quick plug. What's going on at Rackspace? What's hot? What's going on? Give a quick plug for what the services are and the products you got going on there. >> Yeah, absolutely. So we are that end-to-end cloud provider, right? And so we've got really exciting offers in market, helping customers take advantage of all the hyperscale providers, and then giving them that private cloud experience. We've got everything from single-tenant running in our data centers on the backs of vSphere, vCloud Director, and VxRails, all the way through to, like, multi-tenant burstable capability that runs within our own data centers as well. It's a really exciting time for technology, a really exciting time for Rackspace. >> Congratulations, we've been following your journey for a long time. Dell, you guys do continue to do a great job and end-to-end phenomenal work. The telco thing's a huge opportunity, we didn't even go there. But Ash, thanks. Josh, thanks for coming on. Appreciate it. >> Yeah, thanks so much. Thanks for having us. >> Thank you very much. >> Okay, thanks for watching theCUBE. We're live, day two of three days of wall-to-wall coverage. Two sets here in Moscone West on the ground level, in the lobby, checking out all the action. Stay with us for more coverage after this short break. (modern music)

(lively music) >> Welcome back everyone to theCUBE's live coverage in San Francisco for VMware Explorer 22 formerly VMworld, Dave 12 years we've been covering VMware's annual conference. Going next level explores bigger theme, Multi-cloud another inflection point for VMware. And again at the center of it is the partners Zia Yusuf is here senior vice president strategic ecosystem and industry solutions. You're the, you're, you got the keys to the kingdom for VMware, welcome to theCube. >> It's a pleasure, I mean, you guys are a legend here. This is my first time here. So, it's a pleasure and excited to chat with you. >> Well, great to have you, every single year, since 2010 we've always had great commentary and discussion and sometimes contentious discussion around the role of partners. Visa V, VMware's value proposition, VMware dominant and the enterprise data center, everyone knows that. Dominant and hybrid was first there, everyone knows that. Now going to the next level, the customer stay, they stay with VMware, they don't really leave. They still got a great loyal base but now the enterprise is going NextGen cloud native. The partners are energized with the conversations we're hearing is huge. There's changes of roles is clarity on value proposition. Monetization is hoppin'. It's great stuff, what's going on? You're new, but you have a view of this before. Take us through your what's going on in the partner network, what's the state of the union? >> Yeah, I think, thanks for the question. I think maybe just step back a second right, the word partners is a big word. It covers all kinds of things. VMware has had a rich history of partnerships you know, mostly technology related partnerships. So much of our products depend on other partners, OEM partners, and so on. We've also had a rich history of our channel. So, as you look at different channel partners as you look at going through different parts of the segment SMB and so on, in a cloud context, based on what's happening we needed to take an integrated ecosystem approach. That's the word I use, right. And for me it's, it's a little bit like a spider's web. Like no single strand in the web is that strong but when you put it together thoughtfully in a very deliberate way. That's what an integrated ecosystem strategy. And so we've got our VCP partners, longstanding history that machine continues. We've got our channel partners and OEM partners that machinery continues obviously Dell strategic partner, significant business. The parts of the puzzle that I've been focusing on is five other different pieces. So first of course, is our hyper scale partnerships long history with AWS, very successful history. We have GCVE with GCP. We announced, I think three, four months ago that GCP was joining our VMware cloud universal and a big announcement yesterday about Microsoft doing the same. And hopefully we extend that. So, as we work with this hyper scaler six or seven of these partners, it's a, as you can imagine kind of a multidimensional chess game, if you will a little bit competitive mostly cooperative and stuff, right. The GSI is very exciting piece of it. The essentials that Deloitte, Deloitte announced a new business unit on VMware, ACL did the same. That energy level has really gone up. You see it at the show here as well. We recognize that these significant SI's play a huge role in the decision making process with customers. And we want to enable them to build significant VMware businesses. It's a different game from that perspective. Last thing I'm point out is, industry and verticals. Right I mean, this is not being necessarily an area because of the layer of the stack we've been in. Obviously Telco is an end to end business unit for us. We have products, we have a go to market on Telco, public sector to some degree because you need all these three letter agencies and the security and compliance. But as you look at financial services as you look at retail, as you look at healthcare we need to be aware of the workload we need especially on modern apps, especially on the edge. So we kind of doubling down on some of our vertical capabilities. So, all of those things are connected as well, right. The SI to the hyper scale partners in a vertical context. >> What's the biggest change that you've seen? Because we've observed some partners are leaning out as they change their business. And VMware has got new partners coming in, leaning in. So you got mentioned, Dave mentioned Telco and you got new use cases with edge and multi-cloud so you know, some people kind of maybe age out or change their strategy, some double down the core partner network, and then new ones come in. What's been the biggest change, if you can look at that holistically? >> Yeah, it's a great question, right? Because it's so multidimensional and there is no such thing as a GSI global system because they build products. Sometimes they act as a reseller, they're a solution provider. Also they provide services. So as their business model changes, we have to adjust how we engage with them. We can't put them in nice clean buckets. And that's what I'm doing with my colleagues here is how do we really enable them? And one of the things, I mean, I've done this type of stuff, I was at SAP for many years. We need to figure out how do we make them successful? Not just, this is what VMware wants you to do. We need to understand their business model and how do we fit into that? 'Cause if they grow, then we grow with that. And that is honestly a little, it's a subtle point, but it's a little bit of a nuanced. >> Yeah, it's very nuanced, but you have to nail that. You got to overlay. >> 100% >> The strategy where the enablement is technically or product wise, economics and conflict. (John laughing) >> And profitably, if they're profitably is important to us it's not just their growth. >> So Zia, I want to test the premise on you, something, John and I have been working on this notion of super cloud. And we did an event earlier this month, but one of the aspects that's kind of nuance and futuristic is if I'm a, let's say a financial services company and I'm going through a digital transformation I would be looking strategically at what, say Amazon did taking it's internal IT and then pointing at the world. I would say, I have data. I have tools, I have software, I have expertise that's really unique and could be value add. And I would be thinking, how do I monetize that, create my own cloud. And I'm actually just going to throw it into a public cloud to do that. I've got mainframes running, I've got Oracle stuff on Prem. I'm not going to shift that stuff into the cloud and maybe some of it, but I've got transaction systems and proprietary data. And a lot of it is running on VMware and I've got cloud stuff too. I would be looking at, okay, how do I build my own cloud and put my data, my tooling, my software in front of a new ecosystem, my own ecosystem that I can you know monetize. Are you seeing- >> Without spending the CapEx. >> Yeah, without having to build data centers? Right, exactly. I want to take advantage of the gift that the hyper scalers are given. Are you seeing any activity bubbling up in that regard? >> It's a really, it's a really interesting question. And I think the terminology that we've used around cloud smart kind of goes into that. So let me take what you said. >> Okay please, yeah. >> And frame it in a slightly different way. You can standardize on public clouds and everybody's using the same thing. You're using the same services, and so on. Theoretically that could lose some of your differentiation. Right, I mean, especially for financial services companies that have built so much of their you know, trading test down to the milli, milli, millisecond and how do they do that, and so on. So, I think you have something there right. So, as they look at their technology and software strategy, yes there's cost reduction aspects of it. There's refactoring aspects of it that hygiene that needs to be done as Rughu talked about from this cloud chaos to cloud smart, if you will but then how do you differentiate on the business processes? How do you differentiate that then down into the workloads? And I think that's where to use an old term. It takes a village, right, you've got the system integrator that's providing this stuff. You've got other strategy firms like the BCGs and McKinseys of the world that have huge influence now. Then you've got technology players that are coming into that. And I think the cloud smart approach is to do exactly what you're saying. It's not just the refactoring, it's not just movement to the cloud. How do you retain your competitive edge from the processes the models, the thinking that you've built up over many years. So, I don't know if it's super cloud or what that means, but that at the end of the day, this is about business processes. At the end of the day, this is about having a competitive edge in the market and I think you could do it. >> It's industry cloud, right? >> It's, that's a good way to put it. >> Yeah. >> I think Industry cloud is a good way. >> Why is there security cloud, Why isn't there an insurance cloud? Why's there a FinTech cloud? So I mean if you look at Goldman Sachs capital one. >> Right. >> There, CapEx is handled by AWS. Snowflake built their entire business on AWS. Didn't spend the dime on CapEx. Well, they spent a lot of operating expense for that CapEx and the fees, but still they became successful. And then the rest is history. So, I think people are seeing this idea of I'll ride that back on the CapEx of the hyper scalers and then use the tooling from the partner network and what's available. To then, cobble together in an architectural engineered way, distributed computing way, a new way to do things. Okay, so if you believe that, which we do, then you say, oh, it's on the balance sheet. So, what we've been hearing from companies is like, "Hey it's going to be on the balance sheet", I better have an income statement impact on the top line. So, you start to see behavior change at the customers not IT powering the business and the back office and terminals and some app. >> Crosscutting. >> It's like, no, no, no this is a digital business. So, the integration of balance sheet income statement on the economics is driving a lot of the behavior at the customers. So we see customers thinking this way and it's like we've never seen this level of business model refactoring as well as partner vendor selection, product technology mix at the same time. >> And VMware. >> At this level. >> Need the connective tissue between the hyper scalers in the ecosystem and actually provide those cross cloud connections. >> Yeah. >> You know, to the extent there's a business case there, that's what we're trying to of squint through. Is it going to be hybrid with on-prem in one cloud or is there an advantage of going cross clouds beyond just avoiding lock in you know, to take advantage of global infrastructure? >> So and then the next question is the Tam then bigger which means the partners are better? >> Yeah right. >> Participate in that. >> Yeah, I think, and we look at economics of this, right? I mean, there's a huge emphasis on cost, right. Cost, and I completely get that. I think, as I've talked to customers both now that I'm here but before advising a range of companies the innovation process, the time to impact is equally important all right as you compete. There's no point in just getting your cost down. If you're then getting beaten up in the market and you're not able to differentiate with new digital services. And this is where call it super cloud, call it industry cloud. We need to connect up to the business processes and the business impact and not just in my view the cost infrastructure piece of it. >> Yeah. And that we can't do on our own, we're not an apps company. So we're, you're not SAP, we're not Oracle, but we need to work with those players to make sure that their workloads are optimized in the right cloud in the right configuration. And that is a job to be done as opposed to just let's take it to town. >> And there's clearly a technology business case, especially if we're working with companies like VMware who's going to help me you know, simplify. >> Right. >> My move to the multi-cloud but there's also a business and economic impact in that. Even if it's not, if it could be simple as if I partner with Microsoft I'm going to do more business right if I'm one of these industry clouds. So I see that as another potential tailwind, it's really, it's like when Dreesen says all your companies are software companies, to me all companies are cloud companies, now increasingly. >> Look the difference between cloud and apps and then stuff, I mean like. >> Yeah, it's all. >> It's like you know there's used to be infrastructure and then apps company and so on. We need to deliver with our ecosystem partners and integrated solution and solution with a big S not just the technology solution but the broader, I mean look at the change management. >> Yeah, yeah. >> We talked about culture, I mean, if you don't get that piece right and the change management piece. >> Everything, yeah. >> You know the rest of it is history. >> Well and it's got to be delivered as a service, >> It has to be. >> Which is huge implications as to how you deal with change management. >> And this goes back to my kind of first comment is I really try and think of this by architecting the ecosystem. I don't like the word alliances. Right I mean, let's say kind of a one to one relationship. You know, let's do an agreement, let's go have dinner, but architecting the ecosystem the spiders web, who are the different players how can we compliment each other? And if it, Deloitte and a Microsoft want to do amazing business together related to VMware technology I want to encourage that. And so those third party Connections. >> You guys your contextualizing the ecosystem, basically. And I think from a customers standpoint that's a benefit to them, in my opinion in fact, Dave, remember at our supercloud.world event URL supercloud.world is the plug for the site. They can check it out. One of the comments from the cloudarati panel was we had a title this session called the innovators dilemma you know question mark you know . >> Best book ever written. >> Yeah, yeah. And so the, one of the panels said, it shouldn't be, we should change it to the integrators dilemma because what's happening is that integration is now standard table stakes and, but integrating the right things now matters, right? So, integration for integration sake isn't necessarily the end game anymore. >> And this is where. >> And this kind of where you're getting at with the spider's web is that integrating properly is a solution mindset. >> And look, I'm integrating also, you know have to bring in data from that perspective. Right, at the end of the day data being the new oil, if you will, the integration allows that data to flow to the right place at the right time to make the right decision. Now, we are not doing all of those pieces but we are certainly enabling that. And as you especially start looking at what we can do on the edge and what we can do in a retail store and a factory and so on those kinds of things come together. >> Okay, Zia take some time. We got a couple minutes left, only two minutes left, I want you to get some commentary directly to the audience around what specifically you're doubling down on. That's new that you're investing in on the partner network or your partner strategy. What is a steady state that's being nurtured and farmed or whatever word you want to use, but here's our core thing. Here's the area of improvement we're going to be in you know, cranking the handle on take us through that. >> Sure. >> I know you got OAM, got telco, got new things going on. >> Yeah so, maybe a couple of things right. >> lay it all out. >> First of all it has to be linked to VMware strategy. So as we transition on this journey to subscription saas ARR, we need to bring our ecosystem along to do that. That has business model implications that has implications on how we engage with them, how we define success how we value things. So that's an important journey. Secondly, is we need to do a better job of enabling our partners. Right, I mean, we have our partner connected. We do a pretty good job on the channel side. We need to do a better job on the GSIs is really understanding their business model, how they're engaging with their customers and provide them the technology the support, the financial resources, so that they can be successful. That's very important. Third is, to connect the dots on the ecosystem, right? I mean it's a, I've spent a lot of time in this event as well in joint meetings between system integrators and hyper scalers with our technology colleagues on Intel or NetApp or AMD. And these are companies that we have a rich history with. We're trying to connect, because that's how customers look at it. So, connecting the dots between the ecosystem super important to us, and then look, there's a change management journey within VMware. We also need to understand how we can engage with partners in a more productive, effective way. How do we scale this up? I believe, I think our leadership in Raghu and Sumit we are not going to succeed unless we have a profitable, engaged, passionate ecosystem around. >> Yeah I mean, they got to make money. They got to. >> Exactly. >> Be successful, have successful customers, their end customers your customers. Well, all good, question of where you're investing the most right now. If you had to put a kind of the pie chart together, I mean some of it's steady state like it's a machine, some of it's new like Telco for instance I mean here's. >> I think again, rich history on the channel side, we continue to invest there. Very valuable to go do that. I think some of these newer areas around the system integrators, especially the large ones, the Whipple's the HCLs, Deloittes essentials of the world, very important. The hyper scaler relationships directly leads into ARR. You saw the VMC cloud Universal will continue. >> We have Google on great props from Google. >> Yeah, We love it you guys. >> Yeah, and so look, I think we are not multi-cloud unless we go do this. Right I mean, Raghuram made a joke about this. We were single cloud and now we're multi-cloud, we want our customers to be able to procure these integrated solutions through VMware and our hyper scaler partners will continue to do that's when multi-cloud really become. And so the GTM motion, the discounting the commission structure all of that machinery is an important radio for me. >> Zia thank you so much for coming on theCube. I know you've been super busy. You got to go out and hit all the partners say hello, compressing you know, got to hit the pavement, say hello to everyone. >> It's been fantastic, the partners have too many, too many parties and so. (Interviewers laughing) But that's a fun part of my job, but appreciate your time. >> You got good stamina. >> Thanks Zia. >> So you got to have that in this game. Not about the faint of heart here at VMware. Zia thank you for coming on. >> Of course. >> This is the cube coverage, back after lunch. After the short break day two of three days of live coverage here in Moscone West on the street floor level of the event I'm John Furrier with Dave Alante. We'll be right back. (lively music)

>>Okay, welcome back everyone. There's the cubes coverage of VMware Explorer, 22 formerly world. We've been here since 2010 and world 2010 to now it's 2022. And it's VMware Explorer. We're here at the CEO, regular writer. Welcome back to the cube. Great to see you in person. >>Yeah. Great to be here in person, >>Dave and I are, are proud to say that we've been to 12 straight years of covering VMware's annual conference. And thank you. We've seen the change in the growth over time and you know, it's kind of, I won't say pinch me moment, but it's more of a moment of there's the VMware that's grown into the cloud after your famous deal with Andy jazzy in 2016, we've been watching what has been a real sea change and VMware since taking that legacy core business and straightening out the cloud strategy in 2016, and then since then an acceleration of, of cloud native, like direction under your leadership at VMware. Now you're the CEO take us through that because this is where we are right now. We are here at the pinnacle of VMware 2.0 or cloud native VMware, as you point out on your keynote, take us through that history real quick. Cuz I think it's important to know that you've been the architect of a lot of this change and it's it's working. >>Yeah, definitely. We are super excited because like I said, it's working, the history is pretty simple. I mean we tried running our own cloud cloud air. We cloud air didn't work so well. Right. And then at that time, customers really gave us strong feedback that the hybrid they wanted was a Amazon together. Right. And so that's what we went back and did and the andjay announcement, et cetera. And then subsequently as we were continue to build it out, I mean, once that happened, we were able to go work with the Satia and Microsoft and others to get the thing built out all over. Then the next question was okay, Hey, that's great for the workloads that are running on vSphere. What's the story for workloads that are gonna be cloud native and benefit a lot from being cloud native. So that's when we went the Tansu route and the Kubernetes route, we did a couple of acquisitions and then we started that started paying off now with the Tansu portfolio. And last but not the least is once customers have this distributed portfolio now, right. Increasingly everything is becoming multi-cloud. How do you manage and connect and secure. So that's what you start seeing that you saw the management announcement, networking and security and everything else is cooking. And you'll see more stuff there. >>Yeah know, we've been talking about super cloud. It's kinda like a multi-cloud on steroids kind a little bit different pivot of it. And we're seeing some use cases. >>No, no, it's, it's a very great, it's a, it's pretty close to what we talk about. >>Awesome. I mean, and we're seeing this kind of alignment in the industry. It's kind of open, but I have to ask you, when did you, you have the moment where you said multicloud is the game changer moment. When did you have, because you guys had hybrid, which is really early as well. When was the Raghu? When did you have the moment where you said, Hey, multicloud is what's happening. That's we're doubling down on that go. >>I mean, if you think about the evolution of the cloud players, right. Microsoft really started picking up around the 2018 timeframe. I mean, I'm talking about Azure, right? >>In a big way. >>Yeah. In a big way. Right. When that happened and then Google got really serious, it became pretty clear that this was gonna be looking more like the old database market than it looked like a single player cloud market. Right. Equally sticky, but very strong players all with lots of IP creation capability. So that's when we said, okay, from a supplier side, this is gonna become multi. And from a customer side that has always been their desire. Right. Which is, Hey, I don't want to get locked into anybody. I want to do multiple things. And the cloud vendors also started leveraging that OnPrem. Microsoft said, Hey, if you're a windows customer, your licensing is gonna be better off if you go to Azure. Right. Oracle did the same thing. So it just became very clear. >>I am, I have gone make you laugh. I always go back to the software mainframe because I, I think you were here. Right. I mean, you're, you're almost 20 years in. Yeah. And I, the reason I appreciate that is because, well, that's technically very challenging. How do you make virtualization overhead virtually non-existent how do you run any workload? Yeah. How do you recover from, I mean, that's was not trivial. Yeah. Okay. So what's the technical, you know, analog today, the real technical challenge. When you think about cross cloud services. >>Yeah. I mean, I think it's different for each of these layers, right? So as I was alluding to for management, I mean, you can go each one of them by themselves, there is one way of Mo doing multi-cloud, which is multiple clouds. Right. You could say, look, I'm gonna build a great product for AWS. And then I'm gonna build a great product for Azure. I'm gonna build a great product for Google. That's not what aria is. Aria is a true multi-cloud, which means it pulls data in from multiple places. Right? So there are two or three, there are three things that aria has done. That's I think is super interesting. One is they're not trying to take all the data and bring it in. They're trying to federate the data sources. And secondly, they're doing it in real time and they're able to construct this graph of a customer's cloud resources. >>Right. So to keep the graph constructed and pulling data, federating data, I think that's a very interesting concept. The second thing that, like I said is it's a real time because in the cloud, a container might come and go like that. Like that is a second technical challenge. The third it's not as much a technical challenge, but I really like what they have done for the interface they've used GraphQL. Right? So it's not about if you remember in the old world, people talk about single pan or glass, et cetera. No, this is nothing to do with pan or glass. This is a data model. That's a graph and a query language that's suited for that. So you can literally think of whatever you wanna write. You can write and express it in GraphQL and pull all sorts of management applications. You can say, Hey, I can look at cost. I can look at metrics. I can look at whatever it is. It's not five different types of applications. It's one, that's what I think had to do it at scale is the other problem. And, and >>The, the technical enable there is just it's good software. It's a protocol. It's >>No, no, it's, it's, it's it's software. It's a data model. And it's the Federation architecture that they've got, which is open. Right. You can pull in data from Datadog, just as well as from >>Pretty >>Much anything data from VR op we don't care. Right? >>Yeah. Yeah. So rego, I have to ask you, I'm glad you like the Supercloud cuz you know, we, we think multi-cloud still early, but coming fast. I mean, everyone has multiple clouds, but spanning this idea of spanning across has interesting sequences. Do you data, do you do computer both and a lot of good things happening. Kubernetes been containers, all that good stuff. Okay. How do you see the first rev of multi-cloud evolving? Like is it what happens? What's the sequence, what's the order of operations for a client standpoint? Customer standpoint of, of multicloud or Supercloud because we think we're seeing it as a refactoring of something like snowflake, they're a data base, they're a data warehouse on the cloud. They, they say data cloud they'd they like they'll tell us no, you, we're not a data. We're not a data warehouse. We're data cloud. Okay. You're a data warehouse refactored for the CapEx from Amazon and cooler, newer things. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a behavior change. Yeah. But it's still a data warehouse. Yeah. How do you see this multi-cloud environment? Refactoring? Is there something that you see that might be different? That's the same if you know what I'm saying? Like what's what, what's the ne the new thing that's happening with multi-cloud, that's different than just saying I'm I'm doing SAS on the cloud. >>Yeah. So I would say, I would point to a, a couple of things that are different. Firstly, my, the answer depends on which category you are in. Like the category that snowflake is in is very different than Kubernetes or >>Something or Mongo DB, right? >>Yeah. Or Mongo DB. So, so it is not appropriate to talk about one multi-cloud approach across data and compute and so, so on and so forth. So I'll talk about the spaces that we play. Right. So step one, for most customers is two application architectures, right? The cloud native architecture and an enterprise native architecture and tying that together either through data or through networks or through et cetera. So that's where most of the customers are. Right. And then I would say step two is to bring these things together in a more, in a closer fashion and that's where we are going. And that is why you saw the cloud universal announcement and that's already, you've seen the Tansu announcement, et cetera. So it's really, the step one was two distinct clouds. That is just two separate islands. >>So the other thing that we did, that's really what my, the other thing that I'd like to get to your reaction on, cause this is great. You're like a masterclass in the cube here. Yeah, totally is. We see customers becoming super clouds because they're getting the benefit of, of VMware, AWS. And so if I'm like a media company or insurance company, if I have scale, if I continue to invest in, in cloud native development, I do all these things. I'm gonna have a da data scale advantage, possibly agile, which means I can build apps and functionality very quick for customers. I might become my own cloud within the vertical. Exactly. And so I could then service other people in the insurance vertical if I'm the insurance company with my technology and create a separate power curve that never existed before. Cause the CapEx is off the table, it's operating expense. Yep. That runs into the income statement. Yep. This is a fundamental business model shift and an advantage of this kind of scenario. >>And that's why I don't think snowflakes, >>What's your reaction to that? Cuz that's something that, that is not really, talk's highly nuanced and situational. But if Goldman Sachs builds the biggest cloud on the planet for financial service for their own benefit, why wouldn't they >>Exactly. >>And they're >>Gonna build it. They sort of hinted at it that when they were up on stage on AWS, right. That is just their first big step. I'm pretty sure over time they would be using other clouds. Think >>They already are on >>Prem. Yeah. On prem. Exactly. They're using VMware technology there. Right? I mean think about it, AWS. I don't know how many billions of dollars they're spending on AWS R and D Microsoft is doing the same thing. Google's doing the same thing we are doing. Not as much as them that you're doing oral chair. Yeah. If you are a CIO, you would be insane not to take advantage of all of this IP that's getting created and say, look, I'm just gonna bet on one. Doesn't make any sense. Right. So that's what you're seeing. And then >>I think >>The really smart companies, like you talked about would say, look, I will do something for my industry that uses these underlying clouds as the substrate, but encapsulates my IP and my operating model that I then offer to other >>Partners. Yeah. And their incentive for differentiation is scale. Yeah. And capability. And that's a super cloud. That's a, or would be say it environment. >>Yeah. But this is why this, >>It seems like the same >>Game, but >>This, I mean, I think it environment is different than >>Well, I mean it advantage to help the business, the old day service, you >>Said snowflake guys out the marketing guys. So you, >>You said snowflake data warehouse. See, I don't think it's in data warehouse. It's not, that's like saying, you >>Know, I, over >>VMware is a virtualization company or service now is a help desk tool. I, this is the change. Yes. That's occurring. Yes. And that you're enabling. So take the Goldman Sachs example. They're gonna run OnPrem. They're gonna use your infrastructure to do selfer. They're gonna build on AWS CapEx. They're gonna go across clouds and they're gonna need some multi-cloud services. And that's your opportunity. >>Exactly. That's that's really, when you, in the keynote, I talked about cloud universal. Right? So think of a future where we can go to a customer and say, Mr. Customer buy thousand scores, a hundred thousand cores, whatever capacity you can use it, any which way you want on any application platform. Right. And it could be OnPrem. It could be in the cloud, in the cloud of their choice in multiple clouds. And this thing can be fungible and they can tie it to the right services. If they like SageMaker they could tie it to Sage or Aurora. They could tie it to Aurora, cetera, et cetera. So I think that's really the foundation that we are setting. Well, I think, I >>Mean, you're building a cloud across clouds. I mean, that's the way I look at it. And, and that's why it's, to me, the, the DPU announcement, the project Monterey coming to fruition is so important. Yeah. Because if you don't have that, if you're not on that new Silicon curve yep. You're gonna be left behind. Oh, >>Absolutely. It allows us to build things that you would not otherwise be able to do, >>Not to pat ourselves on the back Ragu. But we, in what, 2013 day we said, feel >>Free. >>We, we said with Lou Tucker when OpenStack was crashing. Yeah. Yeah. And then Kubernetes was just a paper. We said, this could be the interoperability layer. Yeah. You got it. And you could have inter clouding cuz there was no clouding. I was gonna riff on inter networking. But if you remember inter networking during the OSI model, TCP and IP were hardened after the physical data link layer was taken care of. So that enabled an entire new industry that was open, open interconnect. Right. So we were saying inter clouding. So what you're kind of getting at with cross cloud is you're kind of creating this routing model if you will. Not necessarily routing, but like connection inter clouding, we called it. I think it's kinda a terrible name. >>What you said about Kubernetes is super critical. It is turning out to be the infrastructure API so long. It has been an infrastructure API for a certain cluster. Right. But if you think about what we said about VSE eight with VSE eight Kubernetes becomes the data center API. Now we sort of glossed over the point of the keynote, but you could do operations storage, anything that you can do on vSphere, you can do using a Kubernetes API. Yeah. And of course you can do all the containers in the Kubernetes clusters and et cetera, is what you could always do. Now you could do that on a VMware environment. OnPrem, you could do that on EKS. Now Kubernetes has become the standard programming model for infrastructure across. It >>Was the great equalizer. Yeah. You, we used to say Amazon turned the data center through an API. It turns, turns of like a lot of APIs and a lot of complexity. Right. And Kubernetes changed. >>Well, the role, the role of defacto standards played a lot into the T C P I P revolution before it became a standard standard. What the question Raghu, as you look at, we had submit on earlier, we had tutorial on as well. What's the disruptive enabler from a defacto. What in your mind, what should, because Kubernetes became kind of defacto, even though it was in the CNCF and in an open source open, it wasn't really standard standard. There's no like standards, body, but what de facto thing has to happen in your mind's eye around making inter clouding or connecting clouds in a, in a way that's gonna create extensibility and growth. What do you see as a de facto thing that the industry should rally around? Obviously Kubernetes is one, is there something else that you see that's important for in an open way that the industry can discuss and, and get behind? >>Yeah. I mean, there are things like identity, right? Which are pretty critical. There is connectivity and networking. So these are all things that the industry can rally around. Right. And that goes along with any modern application infrastructure. So I would say those are the building blocks that need to happen on the data side. Of course there are so many choices as well. So >>How about, you know, security? I think about, you know, when after stuck net, the, the whole industry said, Hey, we have to do a better job of collaborating. And then when you said identity, it just sort of struck me. But then a lot of people tried to sort of monetize private reporting and things like that. So you do you see a movement within the technology industry to do a better job of collaborating to, to solve the acute, you know, security problems? >>Yeah. I think the customer pressure and government pressure right. Causes that way. Yeah. Even now, even in our current universe, you see, there is a lot of behind the scenes collaboration amongst the security teams of all of the tech companies that is not widely seen or known. Right. For example, my CISO knows the AWS CSO or the Microsoft CSO and they all talk and they share the right information about vulnerability attacks and so on and so forth. So there's already a certain amount of collaboration that's happening and that'll only increase. Do, >>Do you, you know, I was somewhat surprised. I didn't hear more in your face about security would, is that just because you had such a strong multi-cloud message that you wanted to get, get across, cuz your security story is very strong and deep. When you get into the DPU side of things, the, you know, the separation of resources and the encryption and I'll end to end >>I'm well, we have a phenomenal security story. Yeah. Yeah. Tell security story and yes. I mean I'll need guilty to the fact that in the keynote you have yeah, yeah, sure time. But what we are doing with NSX and you will hear about some NSX projects as you, if you have time to go to some of the, the sessions. Yeah. There's one called project, not star. Another is called project Watchman or watch, I think it's called, we're all dealing with this. That is gonna strengthen the security story even more. Yeah. >>We think security and data is gonna be a big part of it. Right. As CEO, I have to ask you now that you're the CEO, first of all, I'd love to talk about product with you cuz you're yeah. Yeah. We just great conversation. We want to kind of read thet leaves and ask pointed questions cuz we're putting the puzzle together in real time here with the audience. But as CEO, now you have a lot of discussions around the business. You, the Broadcom thing happening, you got the rename here, you got multi-cloud all good stuff happening. Dave and I were chatting before we came on this morning around the marketplace, around financial valuations and EBIDA numbers. When you have so much strategic Goodwill and investment in the oven right now with the, with the investments in cloud native multi-year investments on a trajectory, you got economies of scale there. >>It's just now coming out to be harvest and more behind it. Yeah. As you come into the Broadcom and or the new world wave that's coming, how do you talk about that value? Cuz you can't really put a number on it yet because there's no customers on it. I mean some customers, but you can't probably some for form. It's not like sales numbers. Yeah. Yeah. How do you make the argument to the PE type folks out there? Like EBIDA and then all the strategic value. What's the, what's the conversation like if you can share any, I know it's obviously public company, all the things going down, but like how do you talk about strategic value to numbers folks? >>Yeah. I mean, we are not talking to PE guys at all. Right. I mean the only conversation we have is helping Broadcom with >>Yeah. But, but number people who are looking at the number, EBIDA kind of, >>Yeah. I mean, you'd be surprised if, for, for example, even with Broadcom, they look at the business holistically as what are the prospects of this business becoming a franchise that is durable and could drive a lot of value. Right. So that's how they look at it holistically. It's not a number driven. >>They do. They look at that. >>Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So I think it's a misperception to say, Hey, it's a numbers driven conversation. It's a business driven conversation where, I mean, and Hawk's been public about it. He says, look, I look at businesses. Can they be leaders in their market? Yeah. Because leaders get, as we all know a disproportionate share of the economic value, is it a durable franchise that's gonna last 10 years or more, right. Obviously with technology changes in between, but 10 years or more >>Or 10, you got your internal, VMware talent customers and >>Partners. Yeah. Significant competitive advantage. So that's, that's really where the conversation starts and the numbers fall out of it. Got it. >>Okay. So I think >>There's a track record too. >>That culture >>That VMware has, you've always had an engineering culture. That's turned, you know, ideas and problems into products that, that have been very successful. >>Well, they had different engineering cultures. They're chips. You guys are software. Right. You guys know >>Software. Yeah. Mean they've been very successful with Broadcom, the standalone networking company since they took it over. Right. I mean, it's, there's a lot of amazing innovation going on there. >>Yeah. Not, not that I'm smiling. I want to kind of poke at this question question. I'll see if I get an answer out of you, when you talk to Hawk tan, does he feel like he bought a lot more than he thought or does he, did he, does he know it's all here? So >>The last two months, I mean, they've been going through a very deliberate process of digging into each business and certainly feels like he got a phenomenal asset base. Yeah. He said that to me even today after the keynote, right. Is the amazing amount of product capability that he's seeing in every one of our businesses. And that's been the constant frame. >>But congratulations on that. >>I've heard, I've heard Hawk talk about the shift to, to Mer merchant Silicon. Yeah. From custom Silicon. But I wanted to ask you when you look at things like AWS nitro yeah. And graviton and train and the advantage that AWS has with custom Silicon, you see Google and Microsoft sort of Alibaba following suit. Would it benefit you to have custom Silicon for, for DPU? I mean, I guess you, you know, to have a tighter integration or do you feel like with the relationships that you have that doesn't buy you anything? >>Yeah. I mean we have pretty strong relationships with in fact fantastic relationships with the Invidia and Intel and AMD >>Benon and AMD now. >>Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we've been working with the Pendo team in their previous incarnations for years. Right, right. When they were at Cisco and then same thing with the, we know the Melanox team as well as the invi original teams and Intel is the collaboration right. From the get go of the company. So we don't feel a need for any of that. We think, I mean, it's clear for those cloud folks, right. They're going towards a vertical integration model and select portions of their stack, like you talked about, but there is always a room for horizontal integration model. Right. And that's what we are a part of. Right. So there'll be a number of DPU pro vendors. There'll be a number of CPU vendors. There'll be a number of other storage, et cetera, et cetera. And we think that is goodness in an alternative model compared to a vertically integr >>And yeah. What this trade offs, right. It's not one or the other, I mean I used to tell, talk to Al Shugar about this all the time. Right. I mean, if vertically integrated, there may be some cost advantages, but then you've got flexibility advantages. If you're using, you know, what the industry is building. Right. And those are the tradeoffs, so yeah. Yeah. >>Greg, what are you excited about right now? You got a lot going on obviously great event. Branding's good. Love the graphics. I was kind of nervous about the name changed. I likem world, but you know, that's, I'm kind of like it >>Doesn't readily roll off your phone. Yeah. >>I know. We, I had everyone miscue this morning already and said VMware Explorer. So >>You pay Laura fine. Yeah. >>Now, I >>Mean a quarter >>Curse jar, whatever I did wrong. I don't believe it. Only small mistake that's because the thing wasn't on. Okay. Anyway, what's on your plate. What's your, what's some of the milestones. Do you share for your employees, your customers and your partners out there that are watching that might wanna know what's next in the whole Broadcom VMware situation. Is there a timeline? Can you talk publicly about what? To what people can expect? >>Yeah, no, we, we talk all the time in the company about that. Right? Because even if there is no news, you need to talk about what is where we are. Right. Because this is such a big transaction and employees need to know where we are at every minute of the day. Right? Yeah. So, so we definitely talk about that. We definitely talk about that with customers too. And where we are is that the, all the processes are on track, right? There is a regulatory track going on. And like I alluded to a few minutes ago, Broadcom is doing what they call the discovery phase of the integration planning, where they learn about the business. And then once that is done, they'll figure out what the operating model is. What Broadcom is said publicly is that the acquisition will close in their fiscal 23, which starts in November of this year, runs through October of next year. >>So >>Anywhere window, okay. As to where it is in that window. >>All right, Raghu, thank you so much for taking valuable time out of your conference time here for the queue. I really appreciate Dave and I both appreciate your friendship. Congratulations on the success as CEO, cuz we've been following your trials and tribulations and endeavors for many years and it's been great to chat with you. >>Yeah. Yeah. It's been great to chat with you, not just today, but yeah. Over a period of time and you guys do great work with this, so >>Yeah. And you guys making, making all the right calls at VMware. All right. More coverage. I'm shot. Dave ante cube coverage day one of three days of world war cup here in Moscone west, the cube coverage of VMware Explorer, 22 be right back.

foreign welcome back to thecube's coverage of VMware Explorer 2022 Lisa Martin and Dave Nicholson here at Moscone West we're with about seven to ten thousand folks here so really good attendance at this first event since 2019 and the First with the new name Dave and I are pleased to welcome Jeff seraki the senior director of product management at Lumen as our next guest Jeff great to have you thank you for having me welcome so looked at the website I always love to see what taglines are and and lumen's website says welcome to the platform for amazing things talk to the audience a little bit about Lumen it's Mission Vision value prop would love to so much like a lot of the Enterprises that are out there today in the market lumens in the process of transforming we're transforming to a technology company from our Network routes but we also have roots in the I.T infrastructure business so we're bringing those together and creating that platform for amazing things uh we believe that our purpose is if you further human progress through technology and how we do that is we're enabling the fourth Industrial Revolution so moving in to the digital age where everything is it's all about data it's about real-time use of that data you machine learning artificial intelligence autonomous Cars Smart cities so the key tenet that we have around the fourth Industrial Revolution is data you need to acquire it and once you acquire it you need to analyze it then you need to act upon it because when you think about it data is just growing and growing and growing from the phones in your pocket to the devices that are sitting in front of us it's not going to stop and information that data is critical to driving business value and outcomes for customers so um so with that the I totally lost my train of thought sorry um uh the ability to to leverage that is critical um you know driving driving the revenue from that so for example like machine learning you can't have machine learning without data to feed the machine so they can start learning so they can look at pictures like oh look this is a picture of a dog this is a picture of a kangaroo so that's what our platform enables and that's what we're building we're building it brand new sitting on top of the Lumen networking capabilities of Global Network one of the largest IP backbone providers so we're super excited about what we have so these days every company has to be a data company to be competitive to you know well even to survive talk a little bit about enabling lumens customers to become data companies while enabling the fourth Industrial Revolution those two seem to be hand in hand yes so with the services that we provide particularly with our partnership with VMware we provide private cloud services that we can deploy on the customer premises or so whether it's a corporate office manufacturing facility a you know logistical facility so we can provide compute there or we can provide it in one of our plus 60 Edge data centers that are located in plus 60 metros so you don't have to put equipment on premises that's all connected by the Lumen Network Dynamic networking capabilities that connect from a customer Prem to Edge data center third party data center all the way into the public Cloud so we can stitch all of that together so I know you mentioned that you know you're you're you know based on your history you're moving further up the value chain with your customers but I'm still fascinated by kind of the history of lumen and when you when you refer to this Lumen Network um tell us a little more about that because that that's kind of a secret sauce ingredient to what you're doing yes so roots and Telecom roots and fiber and we have one of the largest fiber networks in the world and with that comes not only breath but also capillarity going to the markets we have over a hundred and eighty thousand fiber fed Enterprise buildings so with that imagine if your compute's there or if it's in a one of our Edge data centers how quickly you can transmit information from that Prem to the compute all the way into the cloud to acquire analyze and act on that data so that's really kind of the secret sauce we have that as you mentioned is that is that fiber backbone so I'm going to use the word capillarity at least once a day for the next week that's one of my favorite words awesome awesome word in it because and it actually it's evocative of exactly what I know you're what you're referencing but so you you guys are experts in latency bandwidth throughput those underpinnings of making sure that you can get data where it needs to be you can communicate between between environments um you've got that you've got that down so that's a very very strong Foundation to build off of is I guess the point that I wanted to see if I was correct definitely understanding and um just with that capability it really it comes down to outside the data is the user experience and with application performance you know one of the levers you can pull to drive application performance is is network but also location so you can put more bandwidth at it you can take put it on a network with less hops that's one of the advantages of our large backbone or you move the compo compute closer to the point of digital interaction which is what we're doing with our Edge platform so whether it's an edge data center on-prem yeah one thing one thing at the cube that we like to do is we we dive into those things that sometimes people think are inane and banal because we know how important they are we have a whole series on the question of does Hardware matter and so so we understand that you're delivering higher value to your customers but we also want to acknowledge just how important it is for you to have that Foundation yes underneath yeah and we're I mean the customers that in the marketplace they're expecting more and more services up this stack they don't want to have to worry about speeds and feeds well the way we're looking at it is the network has compute endpoints on it and everything has compute customers want to run their applications they don't want to worry about everything underneath it so that's why we're moving up so we want to be able to create that platform you worry about your applications you worry about development and execution of your applications and we'll take care of everything else talk a little bit about the VMware partnership I see Lumen Edge private Cloud on VCF talk a little bit about that how you guys are working together and some of the value of what's in it for me as a customer okay we've been working with for VMware for decades they're one of our best partners and our Flagship private Cloud product is based upon the cloud Foundation and it's a tried and true platform that the market understands and they have confidence in so it's something that they can relate to and they already have experience in so they're not trying to learn something new like trying to go out and find resources that can manage kubernetes like that's probably one of the hottest jobs out there probably took the wrong career path but anyways it's it's new it's emerging whereas VMware people know it there's a lot of people that know it so why spend time as an Enterprise retooling and learning and going to a different platform so with that VMware brings that foundation and the security of that that cohesive ecosystem that comes with VCF so we can provide that dedicated solution to our customers that they know and they Trust trust is critical right I mean it's it's table Stakes for businesses and their vendors and suppliers you know here we are at the VMware explore event that called uh the center of the multi-cloud universe which just sounds like a Marvel movie to me haven't seen any superheroes yet but there's got to be somebody around here in a costume in any event talk about how Lumen and VMware are enabling customers to navigate the the multi-cloud world that they're in by default and really turn it into a strategic advantage uh sure it's tied to the network um as much as I'm trying to say we opsificate it but it's um network is the critical part to it because you do have to physically connect things and the cloud is their computer somewhere so there is a physical behind everything but with the connectivity that we have and the partnership with VMware and the ability to take that platform and either from on-prem Edge data center third party data center or we can also provide that service with uh vmc and AWS we can provide it in the cloud so you have a ubiquitous platform that looks and feels the same no matter where it is and then that's critical to our customers again that the switching costs of learning it's it's a great product VMware is a great partnership to help bring that all together so what is a delighted customer sound like you're interacting with a delighted customer they're not gonna they're not going to pick up the phone and tell you you know what I love your network what what are they going to be what are they going to tell you they're happy about a delighty customer wouldn't talk about our infrastructure at all our virtual machines work our applications work our software Engineers they can develop against it our costs are optimized that's what they're going to care about if they start talking about oh our virtual machines or servers and that means there's probably something wrong so we need to make sure that platform that we're providing as a service and managing works so it's really if your application if you want to talk to me about your application that's what's top of mind for you we're doing our job now you share that love with the folks in your organization responsible for making sure that that infrastructure works right yes you let them know it's like look no no one is no one is touting what you do but it really still is important it is very you want to make sure keep those folks happy yes very important talk a little bit Jeff about how your customer conversations have evolved over the last couple of years as we saw you know two and a half years ago businesses in every industry scrambling to go digital have you seen priorities shift up the c-suite stock over to the board in terms of the infrastructure and the network that powers these organizations yeah I mean over the past couple years with the proliferation of public cloud you know the edicts of got to go to the cloud we got to go Cloud go to the go to the cloud so everything goes to the cloud it's great it's good for a lot of applications but not for all applications and the customer conversations were having a lot of it are okay what what comes back because with Cloud cream and costs it just yeah if you're looking at a permanent VM basis you know public Cloud works but when you have an entire ecosystem of virtual machines and applications to support entire Enterprise that cost can get out of hand pretty quickly are you saying that we we yeah we hear the term repatriation yes used are you saying a fair fair amount of that yes we're seeing that then the other part that we're seeing is getting out of the data center business that's expensive especially if an Enterprise has their own like that's you're talking about 10 million dollars per megawatt just of capital cost there so and then if they're in a third party you still have physical space and power you have servers there you have to assume someone's optimizing those servers and even if you have a hypervisor sitting on top of it that's a lot of work that's a lot of resources and human capital that our private Cloud solution with VMware takes away so that they can again they can worry about their applications providing business value providing customer experience versus is there anything on this server or not does somebody need this virtual machine what are all these public Cloud spend items we have how's this out of control it allows them to focus so that's kind of how things have have evolved and changed over the years one of the things that VMware talked about this morning in terms of the journey the cloud journey is going from cloud chaos which is where a lot of businesses are now to Cloud smart how does Lumen facilitate that transition of a business from cloud chaos to Cloud smart what is a cloud smart strategy from lumen's lens look like first of all you have to have a strategy as an Enterprise you'd be surprised how many of those that are out there that they don't know what to do and part of not knowing what to do is do we even have the right people looking at this and so what Lumen what we bring is that consultative capability to start breaking down some of those issues so maybe they do have a hybrid Cloud strategy okay have you implemented it no why not we don't have enough people okay those are resources we can bring in because not only you provide network and infrastructure but we also have managed surface capabilities managed Services capabilities we can sit on top of that we have Cloud migration practices we have centers of excellence around sap and other services so let us help dissect your problem let's take a let's look at the landscape you have out there find out where everything's buried and dig it up and then we figure out okay how do we move from one place the other you don't just lift and shift and so that those are the other services that Lumen brings in and that's how we help them and our private Cloud product we have it sitting on our Edge right in those 60 metros they can spin up a private Cloud instance tomorrow and they can start moving virtual machines from their data center to that cloud as a staging point to either keep it there you know move it to another place or move it into the public Cloud if that's where the application needs to live I'm curious about lumen's go to market strategy customers have a finite number of strategic seats at the table when it comes time to planning things out like what you just were referencing you know what what do we do next uh what's lumen's path to a seat at that table are you are you generally seeking to directly engage separately with that end user customer or are you going in partnering with others what does that look like in the real world in the real world it's Partners working together no one single entity can provide everything we have to work together and with our infrastructure layer we want to find the right partners that can help provide vertical specific Solutions that then you know they can be Hardware Partners they can be software Partners but then we can collectively go talk to the market talk to our customers about what we can help them with and then with our managed Services capabilities that's how we can kind of glue it all together so that's the direction we're going in so be very focused we're focused on manufacturing you're focused on retail because we see the largest opportunities there that's where we have a strong customer base strong customer relationships and that's how we're doing it we don't want to have an infrastructure conversation we want to outcome and application conversation that's what every customer is talking about it's all about outcomes is there Jeff a favorite customer story in manufacturing or retail that you think really articulates the value of what Lumen and VMware are delivering together yeah it's a yeah we kind of use this one a lot but it's it's uh it's a really good one um and we've seen um uh clones of this and and other opportunities manufacturing smart manufacturing you need to have the equipment that takes that information again that data from all the iot devices analyze it operate your manufacturing facility because most of it's all automated now so you can run that facility at optimal production with that compute you don't necessarily want that compute you know a thousand miles away you want it as close as possible particularly if you look at what if there's a fiber cut your network goes down okay then your factory goes down that's millions of dollars so with that compute there we allow that smart manufacturing capabilities and that's running on Lumen private cloud based upon VMware on vcloud foundation and it's working great and it's it's an opportunity for us to continue to expand I've seen similar use cases in logistics it's yeah I mean it's phenomenal what we can do when you're in conversations with prospects what's the why what's the pitch that you give them about why they should be working with Lumen to help them really maximize the value of their Edge Solutions it's really the resources we bring to bear like you know we we keep talking a lot about Network and uh trying to get away from the sniper that's my cousin the network is is key to the value proposition but it's not what people look at first but it's those other resources the ability to to manage I.T infrastructure which have been doing for decades a lot of people don't know that but we've been doing this a very long time and then with those areas of expertise managed Services it's providing that all together and with lumen's history the Partnerships we have I mean we have a lot of Partnerships so we have the ability to bring all these resources to provide the best solution for the customer and we like to use the term best execution venue so each application has an optimal place to live and we'll help help customers find that out and it's really I mean it's that simple we just need to sit down and have a conversation we can figure out where we can help you and we can get started as soon as the customer is ready so obviously some some changes coming up for VMware in the next few months or so what are you excited about as you continue this long-standing partnership and evolving it forward I'm most excited about us working together even more because we have not only do we have our private Cloud products uh we're leveraging them for kubernetes but also our sassy product we're partnered with VMware on that so we're really tight at the hip with these Cutting Edge Products that we're taking to Market to help customers solve those problems that we were just talking about so I'm just looking forward us coming together more and just getting out there and helping people threatening of the partnership excellent Jeff thank you for joining Dave and me on the program talking about what's going on with Lumen how you're enabling the fourth Industrial Revolution enabling customers to really become data companies we appreciate your time on your insights thank you for Jeff saraki and Dave Nicholson I'm Lisa Martin you're watching thecube live from VMware Explorer 2022. you're watching thecube the leader in Live tech coverage [Music]

(gentle music) >> Hello, everyone welcome to "theCUBE's" live coverage here in San Francisco, California for VMware Explore not VMworld, it's VMware Explore. I'm John Furrier, your host of "theCUBE" with Dave Vellante. We're here with two sets. 12th year, Dave, covering VMworld, now VMware Explore, what a journey? I had a little reminiscing from Paul Maritz in 2010, who predicted the future but the timing was off. Raghu predicting the future, but is his timing right with multi-cloud or super-cloud? We're going to get into it. We got three days of wall to wall CUBE coverage, two sets. All the top execs from VMware coming on, including the CEO Raghu himself, Vittorio, Kit Colbert, the whole kit and caboodle of the executive group to talk about the future of VMware, where it's going, and of course the appearance of Hock Tan here from Broadcom, Dave, made an appearance. Michael Dell was also in presence. I get the vibe that there's something going on with Broadcom and VMware beyond just the acquisition. So a lot of people are curious. This event again is notable and historic from the sense of it's VMware Explore not VMworld, so they changed the name, and Broadcom's intent, and they're going to be buying VMworld. Dave, the keynote was anticipated by all, how it was going to go down, what was going to be said. Raghu set the table, I got a ton of notes, I know you do. What's your take? >> Well, you have to start with the Broadcom acquisition. You're right, Hock Tan was in the audience, he stood up, he got a little clap. >> Golf clap. >> He's paying $60 billion for VMware, he better be able to be recognized. And he was here yesterday with Michael Dell at the executive sessions. And their purpose I'm sure, they didn't let us in, but I'm sure the purpose was to make sure that customers were calm, they were comfortable with the direction. Of course, the narrative coming out of VMware is that, hey, they're investigating, they're going deep into our portfolio, and they like what they see, it's going to be all good, it's not going to be like the CA acquisition and de-levering and all that stuff. I still stand by what I wrote in my breaking analysis back in May. The fact is, Broadcom has promised $8.5 billion in EBITDA within three years. That's the only way they get there, is to cut, so that's going to happen. But the interesting dynamic in the market, I don't know if you've noticed this, VMware stock is trading at a 20% discount to what Broadcom is paying for it. So there's a big amount of fluff, if you want to do some arbitration. And I think it's due to the fact that it's a stock and a cash deal, it's a combination deal, and it's not going to close for a year. So there's maybe some skepticism around that. But that was an interesting dynamic. The keynote we'll get into it, but it's all around multi-cloud and what we call super-cloud. >> I have my conspiracy theories on Broadcom, actually they make chips. Looking at all the waves right now in the technology industry, silicon is hot, anyone who's doing custom silicon and putting software on the chip, making purpose built vertical applications is seeing performance gains in cloud and in these applications. So one, I'm really excited by the dots connecting there. But also the VMware story, Dave, is pretty interesting in the sense that timing's everything, the Broadcom acquisition, EBITDA focus might drive behavior. But notable for VMware, is Raghu has been on this vision for years. I remember in 2016 when I interviewed him with Andy Jassy, who was then the CEO of AWS, they had moved everything to Amazon Web Services. And that was the beginning of the vision of multi-cloud and cloud-native. VMware invested a ton, and so we're seeing some fruit come off the tree. If you will, bearing some fruit from that VMware investment in cloud-native across the board which was their bet prior to Broadcom buying them out. So the question is, does Broadcom harvest that, continue that nurturing of that "plantation of goodness" that could come out of that VMware? And again, it's probability, it's not guaranteed. Commentary on Twitter is pretty heavy on, can they win the Devs? Can the new Ops bringing around the front? So, VMware's and Broadcom in a tough position, they bought more than they thought in my opinion. And I think a lot of people are saying, does Broadcom recognize the strategic value of what's coming out of the oven, so to speak, or what's blowing off the tree from VMware? And is it real? That is the number one question. I talk to people in the hallway, that's what they're saying. They want to know what's going to happen with what's around the corner, that's on top of mind of everybody. >> It's a really important question because VMware's future is multi-cloud management, what we call super-cloud. And without Tanzu, and I speculated that Tanzu was probably going to be under the microscope and potentially on the chopping block because they spend a lot of money marketing it, but they're probably not today getting a lot of returns. But without Tanzu, without a cross-cloud PaaS we sometimes call a super PaaS. their strategy doesn't work, it basically fails. And I think what a lot of people are missing, and I saw you chime in on Twitter, is can they win the Devs? Can they win the Devs? This is table stakes. If you don't have a cross-cloud PaaS, and it's really about not necessarily just the Devs, it's about the ops, right? Because now it's about security. Yes, shift left, but shield right. But the DevOps team, the Ops team needs consistency. It's like Adrian Cockcroft says, the Devs, they love to get married, the Ops, they got to clean up after the divorce. And so they need standard- >> You're implying that they'll use any tool for the job and not really worry about lock in. And I think today on the keynote, Deshaun was up there who submitted a comment, "You kids have it easy these days." Implying us old guys, when we coded, you had to do everything yourself. Kelsey Hightower mentioned her support pack desktop edition. The old days when had to build everything by hand, now it's all automated, all goodness. But in all seriousness, the focus there was DevOps has won, DevOps is what the developers are doing. The developers are in the clear right now, as far as I'm concerned. They're sitting on the beach right now, sunglasses on, sun shining, everything's shift left, CI/CD pipeline, cloud-native goodness. If you're a dev, things are much rosier than an Ops person. So DevOps is developer, security and DataOps, is where the action is. So it's not so much IT operations as it is security and data leveling up to the velocity demand of developers and also ease of use. So self-service in the motion of coding, in the pipelining, that's what the developers have to have. And if people don't build that experience from the upside, the new ops is not going to enable the develop, it won't be adopted in my opinion. >> You mentioned Paul Maritz before, his whole thing was any workload, any cloud, the software mainframe, they're talking about any Kubernetes, any cloud. And we got to go through some of the announcements real quick here. VMware Aria is the new multi-cloud management platform. That is the fundamental strategy for going cross-cloud or what we call super-cloud. The vSphere and vSAN 8 are big deals. And as relates to compute with vSphere, they're really pushing that whole DPU. You might remember Project Monterey. Well, Project Monterey is essentially like AWS Nitro, it's the future of computing architecture seven years after AWS introduced it. So AWS has a huge lead here. But it's critical that a company like VMware is able to offer that capability with XPU optionality, GPU, CPU, Arm based, Pensando capabilities, eventually NPUs, other capabilities to bring in and support new workloads, new data driven workloads. So the lot of talk about the whole DPU thing. As I mentioned, Tanzu new version of Tanzu, they talked about edge. They're basically bringing VMware to the edge with an eventual consistency model. >> Hold on, the vSphere thing, just to jump in there real quick. I always thought that that'd be higher up in the keynote. Clearly in the keynote, they flexed their cloud-native positioning, they had to address the Broadcom thing, talk about modern applications. So it felt like they were selling the dream on the front end. And they buried the lead in my opinion, which is vSphere 8. They don't do a lot of vSphere 8 announcements. If you look at the history of VMworld, every few years they got a new release. This was packed with a lot of goodness. And I thought they'd buried that in the keynote. >> I don't know, Raghu mentioned it. Yeah, they had a lot to cover. And then the other thing was they announced support for Red Hat OpenShift. So everybody's like, "Ooh, wow." And then Tanzu for all the Kubernetes versions from the cloud guys. So a lot of announcements, you got to always give VMware props. It's not like they stopped engineering, they have a great engineering culture. And so it's nice to see Project Monterey in particular, go from R&D to actual product. And so we like to see that. >> Even towards the end, now that we're doing the keynote review, Raghu said, "As proud as we are," this is when they started talking about the sustainability, implying they're real proud engineering, and that's a good call out there. I think that's what were trying to get across to Hock Tan, who was sitting in the front row. But Dave, in terms of keynote, my analysis is clear. Raghu was nervous, you can tell. But he's a product guy, he even said that on stage. He set the table at the beginning, I thought really well with modern applications. He had to address the name change, and I thought that was interesting. He actually said, "We built a community with VMworld, but now with multi-cloud, we're going to recall it Explore." Not sure I agree with that. I think VMworld community is still vibrant, and that's why they're here. So I thought that was nice, the way he balance that out, the messaging is good, the graphics and the branding of Explore is world class, I think it's phenomenal. I'm not a big fan of the name change, but I never go well with change there. Hock Tan didn't speak, he did stand up and wave. >> There's no way he's going to get up to speak. >> He didn't speak. So I thought that was interesting front end, so they got that right out of the way. And absolutely you saying last night. And then they got into this digitally smart concept, which I thought was on point. Did not like the great replatforming message. I'm not a big fan of that because it reminded me of the great resignation. And I think there's going to be a lot of memes on that. So not a big fan of the great replatforming. I did like the Cloud Universal pitch. But this whole multi-cloud pitch seems to me, and I want to get your thoughts on this, is that that's what it reminded me of, Paul Maritz. So when Raghu is clearly betting the ranch on multi-cloud, the question is timing. Paul Maritz in 2010 here at VMworld Moscone, he laid out the vision, he was right. But timing was off, the top of the stack didn't materialize. But at the end of the day, ended up being the right architecture. Is VMware too early with multi-cloud, Dave? And that's the question, that's the question on the table. >> Well, so a couple things. So Maritz, the one mistake Maritz made was he really tried to go into apps, remember? So now at least I think Raghu, the current VMware thinking is, we're going to enable apps to be developed. And that is the right thinking. Are they too early or too late with multi-cloud? I think technically it just wasn't feasible, the customers weren't ready for it. VMware moves at the speed of the CIO we like to say. So I think the timing is actually really good because the technical capabilities are now there. You've got to have across-cloud paths, which Tanzu is about. And I think Tanzu was too immature before. They've got the pieces on the DPU side. And the other thing about the timing is now with Broadcom acquiring VMware, the whole non Dell ecosystem has got to be a lot happier. NetApp, guys like that, Cisco. >> Why is that? >> Because Dell, their thumb on the scale, they had the thing rigged, Dell was first in line for everything. When EMC owned VMware, that was the case. But they were required about it, Dell made no concessions. And they just came out and said, "We are going to be VMware first, we are the preferred partner, we do more business with anybody." They really drove a truck through that. And I think it caused a lot of the ecosystem to pull back, like HPE and others to say, "Okay, we're going to find some alternatives here." Now they can really lean in. It's like when HP broken two, that really changed the ecosystem posture with HPE. This is like that, but times 10. >> What did you think about the ecosystem floor last night? When I did a walk of the floor, I thought it was very vibrant, it was not a ghost town at all. >> No, not at all, we saw Alibaba Cloud was there, we saw a lot of- >> AWS. >> Smaller companies >> Microsoft. >> And so I thought it was better than I thought it would be. There's probably what, 7,000 people here I would say? So well off from the 15,000 pre-COVID highs, but still very robust, it's a good crowd. People are excited to be back in person obviously. And I think the messaging was right, John. I think cross-cloud, multi-cloud, super-cloud, that is the future. Well, David Floid took a stab at it and said, "I think it's going to be $100 billion market by the end of the decade." >> Super-cloud is a thing for sure. And I think that came out in Aria announcement, which was basically a rebranding. It's not a new product, essentially it's a cobble together management platform. I thought the Cloud Universal notes here were interesting. The Cloud Universal is the commercial cloud smart component. Meaning they're trying to make that the frame, Dave, for the hyperscalers to come in to a de facto consortium movement. I feel like that's next here. If this Cloud Universal could become the super-cloud consortium, that might give them a better shot. The ecosystem is buzzing, attendance is strong. It's interesting a lot of people were speculating, will this be an event? I thought they did a great job and I thought they came through well with this. >> You were saying about consortium, because have to have the cloud guys in any consortium. But is any one cloud going to drive it? VMware could be- >> AWS >> Could be the driver. >> I'm thinking if I had to make a prediction, looking at what I just saw in the keynote, we'll see what the VMware execs say, If I had to make a guess, I think you're going to have customers, "Let's still double down on VMware stuff." They're going to settle into vSphere and networking compute and storage, the normal stuff that they've got, the software to find data center core as a cloud operational platform. And then you're going to see a lot more AWS migration. You might see that if Broadcom doesn't nurture the fruit coming off the tree, as we mentioned earlier, I think you might see people go more cloud-native. But I think VMware's prepared for that with the hybrid. So it's going to be very interesting to see. I think the winners coming out of this will be AWS, maybe a little bit of trickle into Azure, Alibaba mostly for the European, I mean the China side. But I don't see them playing. Google is a wild card, we'll see it from them. >> I think the other big thing about the timing, to your earlier point is, VMware used to go to market with very bespoke, We got vSAN, we got NSX, we got vSphere, and now they're trying to bring that together. And essentially remember, they used to go to market and say, "Okay, hey, your ELA is up, time to renew." And they're talking to the wrong people. So now they're going forth with the Azure service model, they're going to move to a subscription model. And I think the timing is right for that. I would've liked to see it a little bit before hand, maybe pre COVID would have been better timing. But I think technically, the time is right now for that. >> And I think looking at the acquisition, speculating on that, I think let's discuss how we see things, how they might move forward. Again, we'll ask the guests as much as best as we can and the best they could answer. But let's take this forward. Okay, based upon what I'm seeing here, if I'm Hock Tan in the audience, I'm saying to myself, "Okay, I got more here than I thought I was buying." Maybe I thought I was getting some great EBITDA. I wonder if his outlook changed on how he goes to market with the new VMware post acquisition. So that means in the around February timeframe, I would probably, if I was advising him to say, "Okay, let's keep it as is, let's not do the cut, cut, cut. Maybe trim a little bit here and there." But for the most part, he's got the solid customer base and he's going to have to keep the event. >> Here's the problem with that. They have a very high do-say ratio. They do what they say they're going to do. And as a result, they've promised 8.5 billion in EBITDA within three years out of VMware. And they return 50% of their free cash flow to investors. If they break that promise, their stock will get crushed. I don't think they're going to break that promise. So I think they're going to run. That's something I believe in their playbook that they're not going to change. Now, could they get there without massive cuts? I think it's going to be hard. Can they get there with price increases? Yes. And better efficiency, yes. But they don't have a lot of go to market synergies, John. Broadcom doesn't have a big sales force that they can say, "Okay, we're going to fire all the VMware sales force and you're going to go to market through our channel." Like Oracle would do with their big sales force or a Dell would do with an acquisition, they can't. And so I just don't see how they're going to around it. The only other thing I would say is, to me, I thought the application development piece, the Tanzu piece was very appropriate. And I think they got it. Whether or not they're going to succeed there, we can debate that. But I thought what was missing was there wasn't enough, in my opinion, on their security posture, their security strategy. I thought they gave it lip service with, "Oh yeah, we're going to shift left and dev security, et cetera." They did not go in depth. I think when you talk to someone like Tom Gillis, who really can go deep, I think talking about Barry and the lead, that was not, security is the number one issue of CIOs, CSO. >> Data and security >> At boards, it's number one. And data is the second thing. And those two stories in the keynote where quasi non-existent or/and weak. >> Again, the reason why I believe, and you're discussing it publicly at a high level, is super-cloud is real because it's not just SaaS on cloud, it's hybrid, it's DevOps, it's developer. And security and data operations are just absolutely now leveling up, and the edge is a complete wild card. We met a company last night, they're doing the edge cloud. The edge is going to open up all kinds of new use cases and challenges. And that's on the DataOps, data security side. DevOps, IT operations is already in the dev cycle. If companies aren't doing that, in my opinion, they're not really doing it right. So I think it'll shift to security and Ops and DataOps, that's going to be the action. In the cloud operational framework, that's super-cloud. To me, if I'm Hock Tan, I'm saying, "VMworld, VMware Explore, VMware has to be a core component of super-cloud of the future. Not multi-cloud just a state." I think multi-cloud will be a description of a state, of an architecture, and an outcome, but that's not super-cloud, that's not a functioning operating system, that's not a functioning business driven technology. So I think VMware has the opportunity. So I look at that and say, I got cheap options all the way up to the top of the stack. And super-cloud paths layer, as you describe, that I think is the way to go. >> When you think about how VMware got here, VMware was a $13 billion trailing 12 month revenue company. There aren't a lot of $13 billion software companies. And the way VMware got here, is through great software engineering. They identified problems that the customers had and they went and solved them. They did it with virtualization, they did it with private cloud, they figured out their public cloud strategy. So I think the question for Broadcom is going to be okay, how fast can we monetize that engineering? Can we turn that engineering R&D into dollars? And how fast can we do that? They have two choices in my opinion, keep innovating, which of course we hope that's the case, or act like a private equity firm and just squeeze as much cash out of VMware as possible. Which I don't think would be the right strategy because eventually that says, okay, what's going to happen to Broadcom? How are they going to continue to grow? Are they're going to have to just keep growing through acquisitions? So I think R&D is a really good spend when it's VMware. >> And I think as we wrap up our keynote analysis, one of the things that's going to come out of this as the conversation, no doubt in my mind will be, VMware isn't CA. And the question is, does Broadcom go off their playbook with VMware because of the fact that you look at the sponsorships for the show, we got a robust set of sponsorships for "theCUBE." With two sets, we're booked, fully loaded. Conversation's high, the floor is all about next level cloud operations. This is not a dying market, this is a growth wave coming. So the question, as super-cloud becomes that growth, and everyone's talking about super-cloud there. Some people who don't like the name, which is good, keep grace debate. But there's no doubt that that next wave is the super-cloud philosophy, the super-cloud mindset and architecture, and development environment. And we've documented that on supercloud.world if anyone's interested. But that wave is coming, and you can see it on the floor. Look at the sponsors, look at what people are talking about, Dave. This is not like Broadcom buying VMware and tucking it under and saying, "Okay, hope we can service the customer." There's a real market growth here story. So the question is, what do you do with that? >> Well, so you start with the base. VMware is a very good platform. The reason why they don't have a ton of competition and the reason why, okay, Nutanix can maybe trickle some away, but VMware is really good, it works, it's stable, it recovers from failures, it's got a super strong ecosystem. So you start by building there and then you identify the places where you can spend a dollar and make it 10. >> Well, I was very excited that when we had our super-cloud event, which was a virtual event as a test, we had great VMware support. And a lot of the catalog sessions up here, on Moscone West, where we're sitting, upstairs is all the sessions, they're crowded. And they overlay, Dave, with our narrative and the industry narrative. On the influencer side, you're starting to see the influencers meeting our editorial and pursuing a super-cloud with VMware and their ecosystem. Kind of agreeing super-cloud is real. And I think that is an important note because just last December, when we coined the term at Reinvent, I think it was Reinvent look what's happened. I want to get your thoughts and your reaction to why super-cloud has got so much traction, it's a great buzz with the name. But why is it that our super-cloud, the VMware, and the ecosystem are all aligning with this? Why do you think that's happening? Why do you think that the momentum is accelerating? >> The reason is that, as everybody knows, organizations have multiple clouds, it's a function of shadow Devs, M&A. And so they end up with all these different clouds, all these different projects, different primitives, different APIs, different tool sets. And they called it cloud chaos today. It's accurate, it is cloud chaos. So what's the problem with that? Well, that makes it harder to secure, it makes it harder to govern, it makes it harder to share data, it creates data silos. What's the answer? Well, if you can create a layer that's an abstraction layer that simplifies all that cross cloud data sharing and development and have a consistent set of APIs through a PaaS layer, we call it super PaaS and you are going to have a metadata intelligence that says, "Okay, I'm going to put this here or put that there. And I'm going to deal with latency, I'm going to optimize for whatever purpose, data sharing, or performance or whatever it is." You're going to solve a lot of problems. And you're going to make the CIO's life easier so that they can invest in their own business and their digital transformation and their digital strategy. So that's why people agree. They might not agree with the name, but they certainly agree with the concept of that abstraction layer. >> The name is certainly a better name than multi-cloud, multi-cloud sounds broken. But I think CIOs and CXOs, CISO, CSOs have to get buy-in from their teams. The organic dev relationship with Ops and SecOps and DataOps has to be symbiotic, not conflicting. And I love the chaos story because as Andy Grove, the legend at Intel once said, "Let chaos reign and then reign in the chaos." >> Chaos is cash. >> So in any innovation inflection point, chaos becomes the complexity, abstraction layers, and or innovation takes that complexity away. This is the formula for success. And I think VMware is right in the middle of it. And I think if I'm looking at VMware right now, I'm saying, hey, reign in that chaos right now and you win. So chaos is not a bad thing if you can reign it in, Dave. >> And that's what they've done. You think about what they did with virtualization, it was chaotic, it was wasteful. I think of what they did with private cloud. They said, "Hey IT guys, we're going to help you not get cloudified. We're going to cloudify your presence on-prem and not just throw everything into the cloud." They did a great job there. And now it's all about multi-cloud. >> Well, we're going to reign in the chaos, extract the signal from the noise. Super CUBE here at super-cloud event VMware Explore. Dave, great to kick it off again. Again, 12th year of CUBE coverage. It seems like a lifetime, Dave. Just yesterday we were 2010 >> Amazing, right. We've been in Moscone South, we've been in North, we've been in Las Vegas. Now we're here West, first time in west. >> Some of these developers were in elementary school when we started "theCUBE" here, I was just feeling old relics. Anyway, we're going to bring more action, three days of coverage, thecube.net, check it out. Join our community, join the conversation. As the influences are coming more onto the market, you're seeing a lot more conversations on Twitter, on LinkedIn, on the internet, check it out. Join the conversation. I'm John Furrier and Dave Vellante. We'll be back with more coverage here in San Francisco after this break. (gentle music)

(upbeat music) >> Hey everyone. Welcome to theCUBE's coverage of VMware Explore 2022. We are at Moscone West. Lisa Martin and Dave Nicholson here. Excited, really excited, whereas they were saying in the VMware keynote, pumped and jacked and jazzed to be back in-person with a lot of folks here. Keynote with standing room only. We've just come from that. We've got a couple of guests here from Expedient, going to unpack their relationship with VMware. Please welcome Brian Smith, the Senior Vice President and Chief Strategy Officer at Expedient. And Brent Meadows, the Vice President of Advanced Solution Architecture at Expedient. Guys it's great to have you on the program. >> Appreciate it bringing us on. >> Yep, welcome. >> Isn't it great to be back in person? >> It is phenomenal to be back. >> So let's talk about obviously three years since the last, what was called VMworld, so many dynamics in the market. Talk to us about what's going on at Expedient, we want to dig into Cloud Different, but kind of give us a lay of the land of what's going on and then we're going to uncrack the VMware partnership as well. >> Sure, so Expedient we're a full stack cloud service provider. So we have physical data centers that we run and then have VMware-based cloud and we've seen a huge shift from the client perspective during the pandemic in how they've really responded from everything pre-pandemic was very focused with Cloud First and trying to go that route only with hyper scaler. And there's been a big evolution with how people have to change how they think about their transformation to get the end result they're looking for. >> Talk about Cloud Different and what it's helping customers to achieve as everyone's in this accelerated transformation. >> Yeah. So, Cloud Different is something that Expedient branded. It's really about how the transformation works. And traditionally, companies thought about doing their transformation, at first they kept everything in house that they were doing and they started building their new applications out into a hyper scale cloud. And what that really is like is, a good analogy would be, it's like living in a house while you're renovating it. And I know what that's like from my relationship versus if you build a new house, or move to a new property that's completed already. And that's really the difference in that experience from a Cloud Different approach from transformation is you think of all the things that you have internally, and there's a lot of technical debt there, and that's a lot of weight that you're carrying when you're trying to do that transformation. So if you kind of flip that around and instead look to make that transformation and move all that technical debt into a cloud that's already built to run those same types of applications, a VMware-based cloud, now you can remove all of that noise, move into a curated stack of technology and everything just works. It has the security in place, your teams know how to run it, and then you can take that time you really reclaim and apply that towards new applications and new things that are strategic to the business. >> That's really critical, Brent, to get folks in the IT organization across the business, really focused on strategic initiatives rather than a lot of the mundane tasks that they just don't have time for. Brent, what are you hearing in the last couple of years with the dynamics we talked about, what are you hearing from the customer? >> Right. So, one of the big things and the challenges in the current dynamic is kind of that staffing part. So as people have built their infrastructure over the years, there's a lot of tribal knowledge that's been created during that process and every day more and more of that knowledge is walking out the door. So taking some of that technical debt that Brian mentioned and kind of removing that so you don't have to have all that tribal knowledge, really standardizing on the foundational infrastructure pieces, allows them to make that transition and not have to carry that technical debt along with them as they make their digital transformations. >> We heard a lot this morning in the keynote guys about customers going, most of them still being in cloud chaos, but VMware wanting them to get to cloud smart. What does that mean, Brian, from Expedient's perspective? What does cloud smart look like to Expedient and its customers? >> Yeah, we completely agree with that message. And it's something we've been preaching for a couple years in part of that Cloud Different story. And it's really about having a consistent wrapper across all of your environments. It doesn't matter if it's things that you're running on-premises that's legacy to things that are in a VMware-based cloud, like an Expedient cloud or things that are in a hyper scale, but having one consistent security, one consistent automation, one consistent cost management, really gives you the governance so that you can get the value out of cloud that you are hoping for and remove a lot of the noise and think less about the technology and more about what the business is getting out of the technology. >> So what does that look like as a practical matter? I imagine you have customers whose on-premises VMware environments look different than what you've created within Expedient data centers. I'm thinking of things like the level of adoption of NSX, how well a customer may embrace VSAN on-prem as an example. Is part of this transmogrification into your data center, kind of nudging people to adopt frameworks that are really necessary for success in the future? >> It's less of a nudge because a lot of times as a service provider, we don't talk about the technology, we talk more about the outcome. So the nice thing with VMware is we can move that same virtual machine or that container into the platform and the client doesn't always know exactly what's underneath because we have that standardized VMware stack and it just works. And that's part of the beauty of the process. I dunno if you want to talk about a specific client or... >> Yeah, so one of the ones we worked with is Bob Evans Foods. So they were in that transformation stage of refreshing, not only their office space and their data center, but also their VMware environment. So we helped them go through and first thing is looking at their existing environment, figuring out what they currently have, because you can't really make a good decision of what you need to change until you know where you're starting from. So we worked with them through that process, completely evacuated their data center. And from a business perspective, what that allowed them to do as well is have more flexibility in the choice of their next corporate office, because they didn't have to have a data center attached to it. So just from that data center perspective, we gave them some flexibility there. But then from an operations perspective, really standardize that process, offloaded some of those menial tasks that you mentioned earlier, and allow them to really look more towards business-driving projects, instead of just trying to keep those lights on, keeping the backups running, et cetera. >> Brian, question for you, here we are, the theme of the event is "The Center of the Multi-cloud Universe" which seems like a Marvel movie, I haven't seen any new superheroes yet, but I suspect there might be some here. But as customers end up and land in multi-cloud by default not by strategy, how does Expedient and VMware help them actually take the environment that they have and make it strategic so that the business can achieve the outcomes, improving revenue, finding new revenue streams, new products, new routes to market to delight those customers. How do you turn that kind of cloud chaos into a strategy? >> Yeah. I'd say there's a couple different components. One is really time. How can you give them time back for things that are creating noise and aren't really strategic to the business? And so if you can give that time back, that's the first way that you can really impact the business. And the second is through that standardization, but also a lot of times when people think of that new standard, they're only thinking if you're building from scratch. And what VMware has really helped is by taking those existing workloads and giving a standard that works for those applications and what you're building new and brings those together under a common platform and so had a really significant impact to the speed that somebody can get to that cloud operating model, that used to be a multi-year process and most of our clients can go from really everything or almost everything on-prem and a little bit in a cloud to a complete cloud operating model, on average, in four to six months. >> Wow! >> So if I have an on-premises environment and some of my workloads are running in a VMware context, VMware would make the pitch in an agnostic way that, "Well, you can go and deploy that "on top of a stack of infrastructure "and anybody and anywhere now." Why do customers come to you instead of saying, "Oh, we'll go to "pick your flavor of hyper scale cloud provider." What's kind of your superpower? You've mentioned a couple of things, but really hone it in on, why would someone want to go to Expedient? >> Yeah. In a single word, service. I mean, we have a 99% client retention rate and have for well over a decade. So it's really that expertise that wraps around all the different technology so that you're not worried about what's happening and you're not worried about trying to keep the lights on and doing the firefighting. You're really focused on the business. And the other way to, I guess another analogy is, if you think about a lot of the technology and the way people go to cloud, it's like if you got a set of Legos without the box or the instructions. So you can build stuff, it could be cool, but you're not going to get to that end state-- >> Hold on. That's how Legos used to work. Just maybe you're too young to remember a time-- >> You see their sales go up because now you buy a different set for this-- >> I build those sets with my son, but I do it grudgingly. >> Do you ever step on one? >> Of course I do. >> Yeah, there's some pain involved. Same thing happens in the transformation. So when they're buying services from an Expedient, you're buying that box set where you have a picture of what your outcome's going to be, the instructions are there. So you also have confidence that you're going to get to the end outcome much faster than you would if you're trying to assemble everything yourself. (David laughing) >> In my mind, I'm imagining the things that I built with Lego, before there were instructions. >> No death star? >> No. Nothing close with the death star. Definitely something that you would not want your information technology to depend upon. >> Got it. >> Brent, we've seen obviously, it seems like every customer these days, regardless of industry has a cloud first initiative. They have competitors in the rear view mirror who are, if they're able to be more agile and faster to market, are potential huge competitive threat. As we see the rise of multi-cloud in the last 12 months, there's also been a lot of increased analyst coverage for alternate specialty hybrid cloud. Talk to us about, Expedient was in the recent Gartner market guide for specialty cloud. How are these related? What's driving this constant change out in the customer marketplace? >> Sure. So a lot of that agility that clients are getting and trying to do that digital transformation or refactor their applications requires a lot of effort from the developers and the internal IT practitioners. So by moving to a model with an enterprise kind of like Expedient, that allows them to get a consistent foundational level for those technical debt, the 'traditional workloads' where they can start focusing their efforts more on that refactoring of their applications, to get that agility, to get the flexibility, to get the market advantage of time to market with their new refactored applications. That takes them much faster to market, allows them to get ahead of those competitors, if they're not already ahead of them, get further ahead of them or catch up the ones that may have already made that transition. >> And I would add that the analyst coverage you've seen in the last 9 to 12 months, really accelerate for our type of cloud because before everything was hyper scale, everything's going to be hyper scale and they realized that companies have been trying to go to the cloud really for over a decade, really 15 years, that digital transformation, but most companies, when you look at the analysts say they're about 30% there, they've hit a plateau. So they need to look at a different way to approach that. And they're realizing that a VMware-based cloud or the specialty cloud providers give a different mode of cloud. Because you had of a pendulum that everything was on-premises, everything swung to cloud first and then it swung to multi-cloud, which meant multiple hyper scale providers and now it's really landing at that equilibrium where you have different modes of cloud. So it's similar like if you want to travel the world, you don't use one mode of transportation to get from one continent to the other. You have to use different modes. Same thing to get all the way to that cloud transformation, you need to use different modes of cloud, an enterprise cloud, a hyper scale cloud, working them together with that common management plan. >> And with that said Brian, where have customer conversations gone in the last couple of years? Obviously this has got to be an executive level, maybe even a board level conversation. Talk to us about how your customer conversations have changed. Have the stakeholders changed? Has things gone up to stack? >> Yeah. The business is much more involved than what it's been in the past and some of the drivers, even through the pandemic, as people reevaluate office space, a lot of times data centers were part of the same building. Or they were added into a review that nobody ever asked, "Well, why are you only using 20% of your data center?" So now that conversation is very active and they're reevaluating that and then the conversation shifts to "Where's the best place?" And that's a lot of, the conference also talks about the best place for your application for the workload in the right location. >> My role here is to dive down into the weeds constantly to stay away from business outcomes and things like that. But somewhere in the middle there's this question of how what you provide is consumed. So fair to assume that often people are moving from CapEx model to an OPEX model where they're consuming by the glass, by the drink. What does that mean organizationally for your customers? And do you help them work through that journey, reorganizing their internal organization to take advantage of cloud? Is that something that Expedient is a part of, or do you have partners that help them through that? How does that work? >> Yeah. There's some unique things that an enterprise doesn't understand when they think about what they've done on-prem versus a service provider is. There's whole models that they can purchase with us in consumption, not just the physical hardware, but licensing as well. Do you want to talk about how clients actually step in and start to do that evaluation? >> Sure. So it really kind of starts on the front end of evaluating what they have. So going through an assessment process, because traditionally, if you have a big data center full of hardware, you've already paid for it. So as you're deploying new workloads, it's "free to deploy." But when you go to that cloud operating model, you're paying for each drink that you're taking. So we want to make sure that as they're going into that cloud operating model, that they are right sized on the front end. They're not over-provisioned on anything that they're going to just waste money and resources on after they make that transition. So it's really about giving them great data on the front end, doing all that collection from a foundational level, from a infrastructure level, but also from a business and IT operations perspective and figuring out where they're spending, not just their money, but also their time and effort and helping them streamline and simplify those IT operations. >> Let's talk about one of the other elephants in the room and that is the remote hybrid workforce. Obviously it's been two and a half years, which is hard to believe. I think I'm one of the only people that hates working from home. Most people, do you too? Okay, good. Thank you, we're normal. >> Absolutely. (Lisa laughing) But VMware was talking about desktop as a service, there was so much change and quick temporary platform set up to accommodate offsite workers during the pandemic. What are some of the experiences that your clients are having and how is Expedient plus VMware helping businesses adapt and really create them the right hybrid model for them going forward? >> Sure. So as part of being that full sack cloud service provider, desktop in that remote user has to be part of that consideration. And one of the biggest things we saw with the pandemic was people stood up what we call pandemic VDI, very temporary solutions. And you saw the news articles that they said, "We did it in 10 days." And how many big transformational events do people plan and execute in 10 days that transform their workforce? So now they're having to come back and say, "Okay, what's the right way to deploy it?" And do you want to talk about some of the specifics of what we're seeing in the adjustments that they're doing? >> Sure. So it is, when you look at it from the end user perspective, it's how they're operating, how they're getting their tools through their day to day job, but it's also the IT administrators that are having to provide that service to the end users. So it's really kind of across the board, it's affecting everyone. So it's really kind of going through and helping them figure out how they're going to support their users going forward. So we've spun up things like VMware desktop as a service providing that multi-tenant ability to consume on a per desktop basis, but then we've also wrapped around with a lot of security features. So one of the big things is as people are going and distributing where they're working from, that data and access to data is also opened up to those locations. So putting those protections in place to be able to protect the environment and then be able, if something does get in, to be able to detect what's going on. And then of course, with a lot of the other components, being able to recover those environments. So building the desktops, the end user access into the disaster recovery plans. >> And talk more, a little bit Brent, about the security aspect. We've seen the threat landscape change dramatically in the last couple of years, ransomware is a household word. I'm pretty sure even my mom knows what that means, to some degree. Where is that in customer conversations? I can imagine in certain industries like financial services and healthcare with PII, it's absolutely critical to ensure that that data is, they know where it is. It's protected and it's recoverable, 'cause everyone's talking about cyber resilience these days. >> Right. And if it's not conversation 1, it's conversation 1A. So it's really kind of core to everything that we do when we're talking to clients. It's whether it's production DR or the desktops, is building that security in place to help them build their security practice up. So when you think about it, it's doing it at layers. So starting with things like more advanced antivirus to see what's actually going on the desktop and then kind of layering above there. So even up to micro-segmentation, where you can envelop each individual desktop in their own quasi network, so that they're only allowed kind of that zero trust model where, Hey, if you can get to a file share, that's the only place you should be going or do I need web apps to get my day to day job done, but really restricting that access and making sure that everything is more good traffic versus unknown traffic. >> Yeah. >> And also on the, you asked about the clouds smarter earlier. And you can really weave the desktop into that because when you're thinking of your production compute environment and your remote desktop environment, and now you can actually share storage together, you can share security together and you start to get economies of scale across those different environments as well. >> So as we are in August, I think still yeah, 2022, barely for a couple more days, lot of change going on at VMware. Expedient has been VMware America's partner of the year before. Talk to us about some of the things that you think from a strategic perspective are next for the partnership. >> That it's definitely the multi-cloud world is here. And it's how we can go deeper, how we're going to see that really mature. You know, one of the things that we've actually done together this year was we worked on a project and evaluated over 30 different companies of what they spend on IT. Everything from the physical data center to the entire stack, to people and actually build a cloud transformation calculator that allows you to compare strategies, so that if you look at Strategy A over a five year period, doing your current transformation, versus that Cloud Different approach, it can actually help quantify the number of hours difference that you can get, the total cost of ownership and the speed that you can get there. So it's things like that that help people make easier decisions and simplify information are going to be part of it. But without a doubt, it's going to be how you can have that wrapper across all of your different environments that really delivers that cloud-like environment that panacea people have been looking for. >> Yeah. That panacea, that seems like it's critical for every organization to achieve. Last question for you. When customers come to you, when they've hit that plateau. They come to Expedient saying, "Guys, with VMware, help us accelerate past this. "We don't have the time, we need to get this done quickly." How do you advise them to move forward? >> Sure. So it goes back to that, what's causing them to hit that plateau? Is it more on the development side of things? Is it the infrastructure teams, not being able to respond fast enough to the developers? And really putting a plan in place to really get rid of those plateaus. It could be getting rid of the technical debt. It could be changing the IT operations and kind of that, the way that they're looking at a cloud transformation model, to help them kind of get accelerated and get them back on the right path. >> Back on the right path. I think we all want to get back on the right path. Guys, thank you so much for joining David and me on theCUBE today, talking about Expedient Cloud Different, what you're seeing in the marketplace, and how Expedient and VMware are helping customers to succeed. We appreciate your time. >> Yep. >> Thanks for having us. >> For our guests and Dave Nicholson, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE live from VMware Explorer '22, stick around, Dave and I will be back shortly with our next guest. (gentle upbeat music)

(bright music) >> "Supermetafragilisticexpialadotious." What's in a name? In an homage to the inimitable Charles Fitzgerald, we've chosen this title for today's session because of all the buzz surrounding "supercloud," a term that we introduced last year to signify a major architectural trend and shift that's occurring in the technology industry. Since that time, we've published numerous videos and articles on the topic, and on August 9th, kicked off "Supercloud22," an open industry event designed to advance the supercloud conversation, gathering input from more than 30 experienced technologists and business leaders in "The Cube" and broader technology community. We're talking about individuals like Benoit Dageville, Kit Colbert, Ali Ghodsi, Mohit Aron, David McJannet, and dozens of other experts. And today, we're pleased to welcome David Linthicum, who's a Chief Strategy Officer of Cloud Services at Deloitte Consulting. David is a technology visionary, a technical CTO. He's an author and a frequently sought after keynote speaker at high profile conferences like "VMware Explore" next week. David Linthicum, welcome back to "The Cube." Good to see you again. >> Oh, it's great to be here. Thanks for the invitation. Thanks for having me. >> Yeah, you're very welcome. Okay, so this topic of supercloud, what you call metacloud, has created a lot of interest. VMware calls it cross-cloud services, Snowflake calls it their data cloud, there's a lot of different names, but recently, you published a piece in "InfoWorld" where you said the following. "I really don't care what we call it, "and I really don't care if I put "my own buzzword into the mix. "However, this does not change the fact "that metacloud is perhaps the most important "architectural evolution occurring right now, "and we need to get this right out of the gate. "If we do that, who cares what it's named?" So very cool. And you also mentioned in a recent article that you don't like to put out new terms out in the wild without defining them. So what is a metacloud, or what we call supercloud? What's your definition? >> Yeah, and again, I don't care what people call it. The reality is it's the ability to have a layer of cross-cloud services. It sits above existing public cloud providers. So the idea here is that instead of building different security systems, different governance systems, different operational systems in each specific cloud provider, using whatever native features they provide, we're trying to do that in a cross-cloud way. So in other words, we're pushing out data integration, security, all these other things that we have to take care of as part of deploying a particular cloud provider. And in a multicloud scenario, we're building those in and between the clouds. And so we've been tracking this for about five years. We understood that multicloud is not necessarily about the particular public cloud providers, it's about things that you build in and between the clouds. >> Got it, okay. So I want to come back to that, to the definition, but I want to tie us to the so-called multicloud. You guys did a survey recently. We've said that multicloud was mostly a symptom of multi-vendor, Shadow Cloud, M&A, and only recently has become a strategic imperative. Now, Deloitte published a survey recently entitled "Closing the Cloud Strategy, Technology, Innovation Gap," and I'd like to explore that a little bit. And so in that survey, you showed data. What I liked about it is you went beyond what we all know, right? The old, "Our research shows that on average, "X number of clouds are used at an individual company." I mean, you had that too, but you really went deeper. You identified why companies are using multiple clouds, and you developed different categories of practitioners across 500 survey respondents. But the reasons were very clear for "why multicloud," as this becomes more strategic. Service choice scale, negotiating leverage, improved business resiliency, minimizing lock-in, interoperability of data, et cetera. So my question to you, David, is what's the problem supercloud or metacloud solves, and what's different from multicloud? >> That's a great question. The reality is that if we're... Well, supercloud or metacloud, whatever, is really something that exists above a multicloud, but I kind of view them as the same thing. It's an architectural pattern. We can name it anything. But the reality is that if we're moving to these multicloud environments, we're doing so to leverage best of breed things. In other words, best of breed technology to provide the innovators within the company to take the business to the next level, and we determine that in the survey. And so if we're looking at what a multicloud provides, it's the ability to provide different choices of different services or piece parts that allows us to build anything that we need to do. And so what we found in the survey and what we found in just practice in dealing with our clients is that ultimately, the value of cloud computing is going to be the innovation aspects. In other words, the ability to take the company to the next level from being more innovative and more disruptive in the marketplace that they're in. And the only way to do that, instead of basically leveraging the services of a particular walled garden of a single public cloud provider, is to cast a wider net and get out and leverage all kinds of services to make these happen. So if you think about that, that's basically how multicloud has evolved. In other words, it wasn't planned. They didn't say, "We're going to go do a multicloud." It was different developers and innovators in the company that went off and leveraged these cloud services, sometimes with the consent of IT leadership, sometimes not. And now we have these multitudes of different services that we're leveraging. And so many of these enterprises are going from 1000 to, say, 3000 services under management. That creates a complexity problem. We have a problem of heterogeneity, different platforms, different tools, different services, different AI technology, database technology, things like that. So the metacloud, or the supercloud, or whatever you want to call it, is the ability to deal with that complexity on the complexity's terms. And so instead of building all these various things that we have to do individually in each of the cloud providers, we're trying to do so within a cross-cloud service layer. We're trying to create this layer of technology, which removes us from dealing with the complexity of the underlying multicloud services and makes it manageable. Because right now, I think we're getting to a point of complexity we just can't operate it at the budgetary limits that we are right now. We can't keep the number of skills around, the number of operators around, to keep these things going. We're going to have to get creative in terms of how we manage these things, how we manage a multicloud. And that's where the supercloud, metacloud, whatever they want to call it, comes that. >> Yeah, and as John Furrier likes to say, in IT, we tend to solve complexity with more complexity, and that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about simplifying, and you talked about the abstraction layer, and then it sounds like I'm inferring more. There's value that's added on top of that. And then you also said the hyperscalers are in a walled garden. So I've been asked, why aren't the hyperscalers superclouds? And I've said, essentially, they want to put your data into their cloud and keep it there. Now, that doesn't mean they won't eventually get into that. We've seen examples a little bit, Outposts, Anthos, Azure Arc, but the hyperscalers really aren't building superclouds or metaclouds, at least today, are they? >> No, they're not. And I always have the predictions for every major cloud conference that this is the conference that the hyperscaler is going to figure out some sort of a multicloud across-cloud strategy. In other words, building services that are able to operate across clouds. That really has never happened. It has happened in dribs and drabs, and you just mentioned a few examples of that, but the ability to own the space, to understand that we're not going to be the center of the universe in how people are going to leverage it, is going to be multiple things, including legacy systems and other cloud providers, and even industry clouds that are emerging these days, and SaaS providers, and all these things. So we're going to assist you in dealing with complexity, and we're going to provide the core services of being there. That hasn't happened yet. And they may be worried about conflicting their market, and the messaging is a bit different, even actively pushing back on the concept of multicloud, but the reality is the market's going to take them there. So in other words, if enough of their customers are asking for this and asking that they take the lead in building these cross-cloud technologies, even if they're participating in the stack and not being the stack, it's too compelling of a market that it's not going to drag a lot of the existing public cloud providers there. >> Well, it's going to be interesting to see how that plays out, David, because I never say never when it comes to a company like AWS, and we've seen how fast they move. And at the same time, they don't want to be commoditized. There's the layer underneath all this infrastructure, and they got this ecosystem that's adding all this tremendous value. But I want to ask you, what are the essential elements of supercloud, coming back to the definition, if you will, and what's different about metacloud, as you call it, from plain old SaaS or PaaS? What are the key elements there? >> Well, the key elements would be holistic management of all of the IT infrastructure. So even though it's sitting above a multicloud, I view metacloud, supercloud as the ability to also manage your existing legacy systems, your existing security stack, your existing network operations, basically everything that exists under the purview of IT. If you think about it, we're moving our infrastructure into the clouds, and we're probably going to hit a saturation point of about 70%. And really, if the supercloud, metacloud, which is going to be expensive to build for most of the enterprises, it needs to support these things holistically. So it needs to have all the services, that is going to be shareable across the different providers, and also existing legacy systems, and also edge computing, and IoT, and all these very diverse systems that we're building there right now. So if complexity is a core challenge to operate these things at scale and the ability to secure these things at scale, we have to have commonality in terms of security architecture and technology, commonality in terms of our directory services, commonality in terms of network operations, commonality in term of cloud operations, commonality in terms of FinOps. All these things should exist in some holistic cross-cloud layer that sits above all this complexity. And you pointed out something very profound. In other words, that is going to mean that we're hiding a lot of the existing cloud providers in terms of their interfaces and dashboards and things like that that we're dealing with today, their APIs. But the reality is that if we're able to manage these things at scale, the public cloud providers are going to benefit greatly from that. They're going to sell more services because people are going to find they're able to leverage them easier. And so in other words, if we're removing the complexity wall, which many in the industry are calling it right now, then suddenly we're moving from, say, the 25 to 30% migrated in the cloud, which most enterprises are today, to 50, 60, 70%. And we're able to do this at scale, and we're doing it at scale because we're providing some architectural optimization through the supercloud, metacloud layer. >> Okay, thanks for that. David, I just want to tap your CTO brain for a minute. At "Supercloud22," we came up with these three deployment models. Kit Colbert put forth the idea that one model would be your control planes running in one cloud, let's say AWS, but it interacts with and can manage and deploy on other clouds, the Kubernetes Cluster Management System. The second one, Mohit Aron from Cohesity laid out, where you instantiate the stack on different clouds and different cloud regions, and then you create a layer, a common interface across those. And then Snowflake was the third deployment model where it's a single global instance, it's one instantiation, and basically building out their own cloud across these regions. Help us parse through that. Do those seem like reasonable deployment models to you? Do you have any thoughts on that? >> Yeah, I mean, that's a distributed computing trick we've been doing, which is, in essence, an agent of the supercloud that's carrying out some of the cloud native functions on that particular cloud, but is, in essence, a slave to the metacloud, or the supercloud, whatever, that's able to run across the various cloud providers. In other words, when it wants to access a service, it may not go directly to that service. It goes directly to the control plane, and that control plane is responsible... Very much like Kubernetes and Docker works, that control plane is responsible for reaching out and leveraging those native services. I think that that's thinking that's a step in the right direction. I think these things unto themselves, at least initially, are going to be a very complex array of technology. Even though we're trying to remove complexity, the supercloud unto itself, in terms of the ability to build this thing that's able to operate at scale across-cloud, is going to be a collection of many different technologies that are interfacing with the public cloud providers in different ways. And so we can start putting these meta architectures together, and I certainly have written and spoke about this for years, but initially, this is going to be something that may escape the detail or the holistic nature of these meta architectures that people are floating around right now. >> Yeah, so I want to stay on this, because anytime I get a CTO brain, I like to... I'm not an engineer, but I've been around a long time, so I know a lot of buzzwords and have absorbed a lot over the years, but so you take those, the second two models, the Mohit instantiate on each cloud and each cloud region versus the Snowflake approach. I asked Benoit Dageville, "Does that mean if I'm in "an AWS east region and I want to do a query on Azure West, "I can do that without moving data?" And he said, "Yes and no." And the answer was really, "No, we actually take a subset of that data," so there's the latency problem. From those deployment model standpoints, what are the trade-offs that you see in terms of instantiating the stack on each individual cloud versus that single instance? Is there a benefit of the single instance for governance and security and simplicity, but a trade-off on latency, or am I overthinking this? >> Yeah, you hit it on the nose. The reality is that the trade-off is going to be latency and performance. If we get wiggy with the distributed nature, like the distributed data example you just provided, we have to basically separate the queries and communicate with the databases on each instance, and then reassemble the result set that goes back to the people who are recording it. And so we can do caching systems and things like that. But the reality is, if it's distributed system, we're going to have latency and bandwidth issues that are going to be limiting us. And also security issues, because if we're removing lots of information over the open internet, or even private circuits, that those are going to be attack vectors that hackers can leverage. You have to keep that in mind. We're trying to reduce those attack vectors. So it would be, in many instances, and I think we have to think about this, that we're going to keep the data in the same physical region for just that. So in other words, it's going to provide the best performance and also the most simplistic access to dealing with security. And so we're not, in essence, thinking about where the data's going, how it's moving across things, things like that. So the challenge is going to be is when you're dealing with a supercloud or metacloud is, when do you make those decisions? And I think, in many instances, even though we're leveraging multiple databases across multiple regions and multiple public cloud providers, and that's the idea of it, we're still going to localize the data for performance reasons. I mean, I just wrote a blog in "InfoWorld" a couple of months ago and talked about, people who are trying to distribute data across different public cloud providers for different reasons, distribute an application development system, things like that, you can do it. With enough time and money, you can do anything. I think the challenge is going to be operating that thing, and also providing a viable business return based on the application. And so why it may look like a good science experiment, and it's cool unto itself as an architect, the reality is the more pragmatic approach is going to be a leavitt in a single region on a single cloud. >> Very interesting. The other reason I like to talk to companies like Deloitte and experienced people like you is 'cause I can get... You're agnostic, right? I mean, you're technology agnostic, vendor agnostic. So I want to come back with another question, which is, how do you deal with what I call the lowest common denominator problem? What I mean by that is if one cloud has, let's say, a superior service... Let's take an example of Nitro and Graviton. AWS seems to be ahead on that, but let's say some other cloud isn't quite quite there yet, and you're building a supercloud or a metacloud. How do you rationalize that? Does it have to be like a caravan in the army where you slow down so all the slowest trucks can keep up, or are the ways to adjudicate that that are advantageous to hide that deficiency? >> Yeah, and that's a great thing about leveraging a supercloud or a metacloud is we're putting that management in a single layer. So as far as a user or even a developer on those systems, they shouldn't worry about the performance that may come back, because we're dealing with the... You hit the nail on the head with that one. The slowest component is the one that dictates performance. And so we have to have some sort of a performance management layer. We're also making dynamic decisions to move data, to move processing, from one server to the other to try to minimize the amount of latency that's coming from a single component. So the great thing about that is we're putting that volatility into a single domain, and it's making architectural decisions in terms of where something will run and where it's getting its data from, things are stored, things like that, based on the performance feedback that's coming back from the various cloud services that are under management. And so if you're running across clouds, it becomes even more interesting, because ultimately, you're going to make some architectural choices on the fly in terms of where that stuff runs based on the active dynamic performance that that public cloud provider is providing. So in other words, we may find that it automatically shut down a database service, say MySQL, on one cloud instance, and moved it to a MySQL instance on another public cloud provider because there was some sort of a performance issue that it couldn't work around. And by the way, it does so dynamically. Away from you making that decision, it's making that decision on your behalf. Again, this is a matter of abstraction, removing complexity, and dealing with complexity through abstraction and automation, and this is... That would be an example of fixing something with automation, self-healing. >> When you meet with some of the public cloud providers and they talk about on-prem private cloud, the general narrative from the hyperscalers is, "Well, that's not a cloud." Should on-prem be inclusive of supercloud, metacloud? >> Absolutely, I mean, and they're selling private cloud instances with the edge cloud that they're selling. The reality is that we're going to have to keep a certain amount of our infrastructure, including private clouds, on premise. It's something that's shrinking as a market share, and it's going to be tougher and tougher to justify as the public cloud providers become better and better at what they do, but we certainly have edge clouds now, and hyperscalers have examples of that where they run a instance of their public cloud infrastructure on premise on physical hardware and software. And the reality is, too, we have data centers and we have systems that just won't go away for another 20 or 30 years. They're just too sticky. They're uneconomically viable to move into the cloud. That's the core thing. It's not that we can't do it. The fact of the matter is we shouldn't do it, because there's not going to be an economic... There's not going to be an economic incentive of making that happen. So if we're going to create this meta layer or this infrastructure which is going to run across clouds, and everybody agrees on, that's what the supercloud is, we have to include the on-premise systems, including private clouds, including legacy systems. And by the way, include the rising number of IoT systems that are out there, and edge-based systems out there. So we're managing it using the same infrastructure into cloud services. So they have metadata systems and they have specialized services, and service finance and retail and things like doing risk analytics. So it gets them further down that path, but not necessarily giving them a SaaS application where they're forced into all of the business processes. We're giving you piece parts. So we'll give you 1000 different parts that are related to the finance industry. You can assemble anything you need, but the thing is, it's not going to be like building it from scratch. We're going to give you risk analytics, we're giving you the financial analytics, all these things that you can leverage within your applications how you want to leverage them. We'll maintain them. So in other words, you don't have to maintain 'em just like a cloud service. And suddenly, we can build applications in a couple of weeks that used to take a couple of months, in some cases, a couple of years. So that seems to be a large take of it moving forward. So get it up in the supercloud. Those become just other services that are under managed... That are under management on the supercloud, the metacloud. So we're able to take those services, abstract them, assemble them, use them in different applications. And the ability to manage where those services are originated versus where they're consumed is going to be managed by the supercloud layer, which, you're dealing with the governance, the service governance, the security systems, the directory systems, identity access management, things like that. They're going to get you further along down the pike, and that comes back as real value. If I'm able to build something in two weeks that used to take me two months, and I'm able to give my creators in the organization the ability to move faster, that's a real advantage. And suddenly, we are going to be valued by our digital footprint, our ability to do things in a creative and innovative way. And so organizations are able to move that fast, leveraging cloud computing for what it should be leveraged, as a true force multiplier for the business. They're going to win the game. They're going to get the most value. They're going to be around in 20 years, the others won't. >> David Linthicum, always love talking. You have a dangerous combination of business and technology expertise. Let's tease. "VMware Explore" next week, you're giving a keynote, if they're going to be there. Which day are you? >> Tuesday. Tuesday, 11 o'clock. >> All right, that's a big day. Tuesday, 11 o'clock. And David, please do stop by "The Cube." We're in Moscone West. Love to get you on and continue this conversation. I got 100 more questions for you. Really appreciate your time. >> I always love talking to people at "The Cube." Thank you very much. >> All right, and thanks for watching our ongoing coverage of "Supercloud22" on "The Cube," your leader in enterprise tech and emerging tech coverage. (bright music)

(Techno music) >> Live from San Francisco, celebrating ten years of high tech coverage, it's The Cube. Covering VMworld 2019. Brought to you by VMware and it's ecosystem partners. >> Well we are in Moscone Center North here in San Francisco, the city by the bay. Gorgeous day outside. Day two of our coverage here on the Cube. Vmworld 2019. I'm John Walls with John Troyer. John good to see you today. >> Great to be here with you. >> Good for day two. We have a couple of authors with us today, both from VMware. Rosa Lear who is the Director of Marketing at VeloCloud, in the business unit there. Rosa thank you for being with us. >> Thank you. >> Appreciate that. And Dave Twinam, who is the Director of Systems Engineering in that business unit at VMware. And this is the book that they have collaborate on I think with 12 others, there were 14 who came together on this project. It's called SD-WAN one on one, the what, the why, and the how. This is going to answer all those riddles, all those puzzles that you have about how to software define wide area network work, where are the pitfalls, where are the challenges, what are we going to do to solve our problems. So folks what was the genesis of this? It's a hefty thing for sure, >> (Rosa) It is, yes. And really well illustrated, we'll get into that in a little bit, but what was the genesis of this? Rosa if you would first, what drove you to put this together? >> Sure, there are a lot of books out there on the market that are focused on the SD-WAN because it's such a hot topic, but what we saw was a big deficit on how does it actually work. Getting down into that second, third layer of what people are looking for. So it's not so superficial. They really want to know how does it work, how do I integrate it into my network, what are the steps that I go through. So it's not a user manual, but it definitely gives you that deep perspective of what SD-WAN can provide and how to implement it into your network. >> So the target audience would be who? >> Network engineers, we also got stuff in here for the business owners, so CTO's. We actually have two characters that help outline a lot of the comments, or a lot of the meat of the book. One is Elvina. She's the CTO, so she really describes what her business needs are. And then there's Rodney who is her network engineer who actually implements this, the architect, so it's told from their perspective and really introducing each of the chapters, the concepts, and the takeaways. >> So Dave as you've been doing this, you're talking to customers out there, what's the state of the art here, where are we with the evolution of SD-WAN? It's kind of a noisy space from my perspective. Also from a VMware perspective, this brings VMware out of the data center into the network, and network edge, and wide area network. So can you just talk a little bit about what are the problems people are seeing, and that they're solving with SD-WAN, and why are network engineers interested in taking this as their bedtime reading. >> Absolutely, clearly what we're seeing in the marketplace is that there is a lot of noise out there, there are a lot of vendors that are in the SD-WAN space. I think it's important to note though that we are number one. It's always a good place to be. So while VMware is a newer kind of entrant into the wide area market in particular we already have a leadership position via the VeloCloud acquisition, and obviously the continued enhancements to the portfolio from there. So the reality is that SD-WAN, it's kind of funny we have the why at the beginning of the book, more and more customers aren't asking the why. They know why they need it, which is it's the natural evolution of their wide area infrastructure. They know that software is the future, that's why we are here at Vmworld cause we're all about software, and understanding how they can evolve to meet those business challenges in a software framework versus the traditional rip and replace hardware based model over the past. >> And you're on one side of the equation obviously, you're supplying this information, supplying the services, developing the solutions whatever. How much listening do you do to the other side to put together something like this? Cause I would assume you had to have a real sense of what the problems are and what the questions are. What is the what, what is the why, what is the how that's going on on the customer side of this. Tell me about that process if you will. >> Sure, so one of the unique parts of this book is that with these other authors that we brought in to put this book together, and we did this within five days which is a great project, but we really took the people out of the field. So these are the engineers that helped create this book are the ones who are shoulder to shoulder with the customer. Helping them that implementation, talking to them about how they actually implement this. So they talk to the customers, this is brought out from the field. It's not some guy sitting in an ivory tower talking about what you should do. This is actually what you should do because this is the best practice, this is what we hear from customers, this is what works best for all of the people we've implemented SD-WAN with. >> You did this in five days? >> Five days, so we hired a company. >> (John) How many of you 14? >> There was 15 of us. >> 15 in five days, we're you locked up for >> Yes. 24 hours around the clock. I read you went to Miami, I remember that, but I didn't realize it was in that compressed of a time frame. >> Oh yeah, it was great. I mean we all learned, I think, a lot because we come from different geography's. We came from different deployment models and so forth. And yeah we just all got together. >> I love the idea of the book spread. So you've captured a moment in time, of the technology, of the marketplace, but you said this isn't a dummies book, isn't an intro, nor is it a how to manual right. It's not a product manual. So I'm thinking it should be somewhat conceptual and have a life span of more then just the latest release of anything right. Is that part of the goal here? Is this going to have a lifespan? >> Absolutely. >> I mean what do you envision? Again it's interesting you're both engineering and you said the CTO, the CXO level can get some understanding of why some things are going on. >> Sure, you think about it from a CXO perspective right. What are the business challenges that that individual sees. They don't necessarily care about the bits and bites of networking underneath. They know that they need a network, but they also know that it's a really expensive part of their budget. So they need to understand how does it actually support the business and ultimately how can they do more with it, and ideally what we always hear is do more with less. So how do we get to that point and understanding then that's one need that comes from the business side. Well how do we complement that from the technical side of things. How do we solve those problems. But the reality is we're not solving technical problems just to solve technical problems. We're solving them to actually meet the needs of the business. So kind of seeing both side and how they come together is critical to it and I think that's something we tried hard to put into the book. >> When you have a collaboration like this, and you said you brought 15 people together, I'm sure there has to be some disagreement at some point or some discussion. So what were some of those points that came up where somebody thought that perhaps maybe a little more attention here, maybe a little less attention there. Maybe this is something we should bring, no that's not touch that base. How about those discussions, that back and forth, and how did you settle that with so many people in the room? >> So one of the things that we first outlined when we started this process was that this is a safe space. That nobody is really wrong, cause we're also bringing in different perspectives here. So we definitely all decided that we're going to treat each other respectfully. There was a lot of arguments here and there about certain things but we all are professional so we all figured out what the right thing was to do. >> So let's talk about the order, let's talk about how you dealt with it, the what's and the whys. You said why almost didn't make the cut but did make the dress rehearsal and the publishing. How do you put together something like this, that is not a user manual, cause that's the first thing I thought of. I thought okay, you're going to show me what SD-WANS all about and how I'm going to deploy it. VMwares services or solutions rather on my network. But that's not what this is all about. How did you parts that? How did you decide this is the direction we're going to go, and not just make it a how to for people or a dummies. >> So we already have a dummies book, so you should check that out. There's also a PDF on our website, velocloud.com, so we needed another layer, another book that would go deeper on that. We needed something that, I mean you can always write a user manual. Anybody can sit in a room and put that together, but we wanted something that was different. That was actually going to, I guess, comfort customers who were looking at the solution. Give them the right idea that this is what they need, and also what they were going to get into. That's a big question, you don't understand what the implementations going to be like until you're in it. So this gives you that view. So you can use it as a pre-customer read, or you can use it post-sales and really help define what you need to do when you're implementing. >> Nice, nice. We're here at VMworld 2019, this is my you know millionth VMworld. Very interesting, a lot of talk at the top level. Apps and kubernetes and that sort of stuff. At the bottom level, networking and a lot of other things, that maybe the traditional admin, Vsphere admin, already kind of a silo busters from old rolls is already here but sometimes when the networking folks talk with the server folks the words mean different things. They're slightly different tribes lets say. App performance is an SD-WAN context may mean something completely different then app performance in a data center, server context. So you're here at the show. You've got the network edge zone down in the show floor. You've got a booth there, you've got activities, obviously a lot of break out sessions. How have the networker's mixed with the admins? How has it been? And you all are from VeloCloud which has been with VMware for? >> (Rosa) Almost two years in December. >> Talk about both that integration, both corporately and you know here at the show. >> You want to go first? >> Sure, the event has been fantastic for us. We are getting a lot of traction. We actually did a book signing for this book yesterday with six of the authors. 96 books are gone, and I feel like the conversations are really migrating to the networking space. The wide area networking space rather then just data center. You're right there is a lot of overlap in the technology and the lingo and jargon, but I think if we know what were talking about in terms of wide area networking I think those conversations can easily be fudged or gaped. >> Just I would add, I've been at VMware about five years now so I was on the NSX team prior to moving over to the Velo team. So five years ago there was virtually no presence of networking. We were the only networking people here for the most part, And that's really changed substantially. And this year in particular is the first year where there are a lot of networking folks that are roaming the halls here. Whether its understanding the NSX side of the house or whether its SD-WAN there is a significantly greater presence then there's ever been previously. So the other piece is realizing we're a networking company now and a security company right. Those components are integral as a part of the solution and so the makeup has actually begun to change a little bit and there's more co-mingling then there's ever been before in this space. >> You touch on security in the book? >> Absolutely there's an entire chapter on it. >> So C-Cell might be interested as well? >> Absolutely. >> All right so the book I've seen is for purchase here on site. >> (Rosa) Yes. >> In case somebody's watching and they're here tell them where they can get it. >> Go the the VMware book store, it's in Moscone West, and then we also will be making it available on Amazon starting next week. >> All right so here's again a look at the book. SD-WAN one on one, the what, the why and the how. Rosa, Dave thanks for being with us. Congratulations on, I assume first book? >> For me yes. >> Third for me. >> Oh okay, a practiced hand. (laughing) >> First print though. >> Not fair. Thank you both, appreciate the time. >> (in unison) Thank you. >> Back with more continued coverage here on the cube of Vmworld 2019. (techno music)

>> Live from San Francisco, it's theCube, covering Google Cloud Next 2018. Brought to you by Google Cloud and its ecosystem partners. >> Hello everyone, welcome back, this is theCUBE's live coverage, we're here in San Francisco, Moscone West for Google Cloud's big conference called Next 2018. The hashtag is GoogleNext18. I'm John Furrier, Dave Vellante, our next guest is Traci Gusher, Principal, Data and Analytics at KPMG. Great to have you on, thanks for joining us today. >> Yeah, thanks for having me. >> We love bringing on the big system, global, some integrators, you guys have great domain expertise. You also work with customers, you have all the best stories. You work with the best tech. Google Cloud is like a kid in the candy store >> It sure is. when it comes to tech, so my first question is obviously AI in super important to Google. Huge scale, they bring out all the goodies to the party. Spanner, Bigtable, BigQuery, I mean they got a lot of good stuff. TensorFlow, all this open source goodness, pretty impressive, right, >> Yeah, absolutely. the past couple years what they've done. How are you guys partnering with Google, because now that's out there, they need help, they've been acknowledging it for a couple years, they're building an ecosystem, and they want to help end user customers. >> Yeah, we've been working with Google for quite some time, but we actually just formalized our partnership with Google in May of this year. From our perspective, all of the good work that we have done, we're ready to hit the accelerator on and really move forward fast. Some of the things that were announced this week, I think, are prime examples of areas where we see opportunity for us to hit the accelerator on. Something like what was announced this week with their new contact center, API suite, launched by the Advanced Solutions Lab. We had early access to test some of that and really were able to witness just how accelerated some of these things can help us be when we're building end-to-end solutions for clients. >> There's a shortcut to the solutions because with Cloud, the time to value is so much faster, so it's almost an innovator's dilemma. The longer deployments probably meant more billings, ( laughs) right, for a lot of integrators. We've heard people saying hey we've gone, the old days were eight months to eight weeks to eight minutes on some of these techs, so the engagements have changed. At the end of the day, there's still a huge demand for architectural shift. How has the delivery piece of tech helped you guys serve your customers, because I think that's now a conversation that we're hearing is that look, I can move faster, but I don't want to break anything. The old Facebook move fast, break stuff, that doesn't fly in enterprise. >> No, it doesn't (laughs). >> I want to move fast, but I need to have some support there. What are some of the things that you're seeing that are impacting the delivery from integrators? >> Well, some of the technology that's come, that's reduced the length of time to deliver, we see and a lot of our customers see as opportunity to do the next thing, right? If you can implement a solution to a problem quicker, better, faster, than you can move on to the next problem and implement that one quicker, better, faster. I think the first impact is just being able to solve more problems, just being able to really apply some benefits in a lot more areas. The second thing is that we're looking at problems differently, the way that problems used to be solved is changing, and that's most powerfully noted, as we see, at this conference by what's happening with artificial intelligence and with all the accelerators that are being released in machine learning and the like. There's a big difference in just how we're solving the problems that impacts it. >> What are some of the problems that you guys are attacking now, obviously AI's got a lot of goodness to it. What are some of the challenges that you're attacking for customers, what are some examples? >> Our customers have varying problems as they're looking to capitalize on artificial intelligence. One of the big problems is where do I start, right? Often you'll have a big hype cycle where people are really interested, executives are really interested, and I want to use AI, I want to be an AI-enabled company. But they're not really sure where to start. One of the areas that we're really hoping a lot of our customers do is identify where the low hanging fruit is to get immediate value. And at the same time, plan for longer strategic types of opportunities. The second area is that one of the faults that we're seeing, or failure points that we're seeing in using artificial intelligence is failure to launch. What I mean by that is there's a lot of great modeling, a lot of great prototyping and experimentation happening in the lab as it relates to applying AI to different problems and opportunities, but they're staying in the lab, they're not making it in to production, they're not making it in to BAU, business as usual processes inside organizations. So a big area that we're helping our clients in is actually bridging that gap, and that's actually how I refer to it, I refer to it as mind the gap. >> That is a great example, I hear this all the time, classic. Is it, what's the reasons, just group think, I'm nervous, there's no process, what's holding that back from the failure to launch? >> There's a few things. The first is that a lot of traditional IT organizations embedded in enterprises don't necessarily have all of the skills and capabilities or the depth of skills and capabilities that they need to deploy these models in to production. There's even just basic programming types of gaps, where a lot of models are being constructed using things like Python, and a lot of traditional IT organizations are Java shops and they're saying what do I do now? Do I convert, do I learn, do I use different talent? There's technology areas that prove to be challenging. The other area is in the people, and I actually spoke with an analyst this morning about this very topic. There's a lot of organizations that have started productionalizing some of these systems and some of these applications, and they're a little bit discouraged that they're not seeing the kind of lift and the kind of benefits that they thought they would. In most cases-- >> Who, the customers or the analysts? >> The customers. >> OK, alright. >> Yeah, I was having a conversation with an analyst about it. But in most cases, it's not that the technology is falling short, it's not that the model isn't as accurate as you need it to be, it's that the workforce hasn't been transitioned to utilize it, the processes haven't been changed. >> Operationalizing it, yeah. >> The user interfaces aren't transitioning the workforce to a new type of model, they're not being retrained on how to utilize the new technology or the new insights coming from these models. >> That's a huge issue, I agree. >> Isn't there also, Traci, some complacency in certain industries? I mean you think about businesses that haven't yet totally transformed, I think of healthcare, I think of financial services, as examples that are ripe for transformation but really haven't yet. You hear a lot of people say well, it's not really urgent for us, we're doing pretty well, I'll be retired by then, there seems to be a sense of complacency in certain segments of enterprises. Do you see that? >> I do. And I'll say that we've seen a lot more movement in some of those complacent industries in the last six to 18 months than we have previously. I'll also say going back to that where do I start element, there's a lot of organizations that have pressing business challenges, those burning platforms, and that's where they're starting and I'm not advocating against it, I'm actually advocating very much for that, because that's how you can prove some real immediate value. Some organizations, particularly in life sciences or financial services, they're starting to use these technologies to solve their regulatory challenges. How do I comply faster, how do I comply better, how do I avoid any type of compliance issues in the future, how do I avoid other challenges that could come in those areas? The answer to a lot of those questions is if I use AI, I can do it quicker, more accurately, etc. >> Are you able to help them get ancillary value out of that or is it just sort of, compliance a lot of times is like insurance, if I don't do it I get in trouble or I get fined. But are you able to, this is like the holy grail of compliance and governance, are you able to get additional value out of that when you sort of apply machine intelligence to solve those problems? >> That's always the goal. Solving the regulatory problem is certainly what I would say are the table stakes, right? The must-have. But the ability to gain insight that can actually drive value in the organization, that's where your aim really is. In fact, we've worked with a lot of organizations, take life sciences, we've worked with some life sciences organizations that are trying to solve some compliance issues and what we've found is that many times in helping them solve these compliance issues, we're actually gathering insights that significantly increase the capability of their sales organization, because the insights are giving them real information about their customers, their customers' buying patterns, how they're buying, where they might be buying improperly. And it's not the table stake of what we're trying to do, the table stake was maybe contract compliance, but the value that they're actually getting out of it is not only the compliance over their distributors or their pharmacies, but it's also over the impact that they're going to have on their sales organization. For something like an internal audit department to have value to sales, that' like holy grail stuff. >> Yeah, right, yeah. >> What about the data challenges? Even in a bank, who's essentially a data company, the data tends to be very siloed, maybe tucked away in different business units. How are you seeing organizations, how are you helping organizations deal with that data silo problem, specifically as it relates to AI? >> It used to be that the devil was in the details, but now the devil's in the data, right? >> I love that. >> There was a great Harvard Business Review article that came out, and I think Diane Green actually quoted this in one of her presentations, that companies that can't do analytics well can't do AI yet. A lot of companies that can't do analytics well yet, it isn't because they don't have the analytical talent, it's not because they don't know the insights they want to drive, it's because the data isn't in the right format, isn't usable to be able to gain value from it. There's a few different ways that we're helping our clients deal with those things. Just at the very basic level is good data governance. Do you have data stewards that are owning data, that are making sure that data is being created and governed the right way? >> That's a huge deal, I imagine-- >> Inequality and. >> It's huge. >> Inequality-- >> inequality, meta data. >> Garbage in, garbage out. >> Lineage of data, how it's transformed. Being able to govern those things is just imperative. >> It could be just a database thing, could be a database thing, too, it's one of those things where there's so many areas that could be mistakes on the data side. Want to get your thoughts on the point you said earlier which I thought was about technology not coming out and getting commercialized or operationalized. For a variety of reasons, one of them being processes in place, and we hear this a lot. This is a big opportunity, because the human side of these new jobs, whether you're operating the network, really they need help, customers need help. I think you guys should do a great job there given the history. The other trend that came out of the keynote today I want to get your reaction to is there's a tweet here, I'll read it, it says "GCB Cloud will start serving "managing services, enterprise workloads, including Oracle, RAC and Oracle exit data, and SAP HANA through partners." Interesting mind shift again, talk about a mind shift, OK. Partners aren't used to dealing with multi-vendors, but now as a managed service will change the mechanism a bit on delivery because now it's like OK, hey, you want to sling some APIs around, no problem. You want to manage it, we got Kubernetes and Istio. You want a little Oracle with a little bit of HANA? It brings up a much more diverse landscape of solutions. >> It does. Which makes the partners like sous chefs. You can cut the solutions up any way you want. To your point about going faster, to the next challenge. Normal, is that going to be the new normal, this kind of managed service dashboarding? You see that as the... >> I think it is, and I'll take it a step, sir, I'll take it a step further beyond managed service and actually get a little more discreet. One of the things that we're doing increasingly more of is insights as a service, right? If you think about managed service in the traditional sense of I've got a process and you're going to manage that process end to end for me, that technology end to end for me, I do think that that's going to slowly become more and more prevalent. That has to happen with our movement to putting our applications in the cloud, and our ERPs in the cloud. I think it is going to become more of the norm than the less but I also think that it's opening the door for a lot of other things as a service, including insights as a service. Organizations can't find the data science talent that they need to do the really complex types of analysis. >> Your insights as a service comment just gave me an insightful, original idea, thank you very much. >> You're welcome. >> I'll put this in the wrap-up, Dave, when we talk about it. Think about insight as a service, to make that happen with all the underpinning tech, whether it's Oracle or whatever, the insights are an abstraction layer on top of that so if the job is to create great experiences or insights, it should be independent of that. Google Cloud is bringing out a lot more of the concept of abstractions. Kubernetes, Istio, so this notion of an abstraction layer is not just technical, there's also business logic involved. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> This is going to be a dream scenario for KPMG, >> We think so. for your customers, for other partners. Cause now you can add value in those abstraction layers. >> Absolutely. >> By reducing the complexity. Well Oracle, that's not my department, that's HANA's, that's SAP, who does that? He or she's the product lead over it, gone. Insights as a service completely horizontally flattens that. >> Yeah, and to that point, there's magic that happens when you bring different data together. Having data silos because their data's in different systems just, that's the analytics of 1990. Organizations can't operate on that anymore, and real analytics comes when you are working at a layer above the system's and working with the data that's coming from those systems and in fact even creating signals from the data. Not even using the data anymore, creating a signal from the data as an input to a model. I couldn't agree with you more. >> Whole new way of doing business. This is digital transmitting, this is the magic of Cloud. Traci, great to have you on. >> Yeah, thanks for having me. >> It's going to be a whole new landscape changeover, new way to do business. You guys are doing a great job, KPMG, Traci Gusher. Here inside theCUBE talking about analytics AI. If you can't do analytics good, why even go to AI? Love that line. theCUBE bringing you all the data here, stick with us for more after this short break. (bubbly electronic tones)

>> Live from San Francisco, it's theCUBE covering DockerCon '18, brought to you by Docker and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE, we are live at DockerCon 2018 on a stunning day in San Francisco at Moscone West. I'm Lisa Martin with John Troyer and we're excited to welcome two new folks to theCUBE from Skytap. We've got Lucas Welch, the senior director of communications and Hamish Hill, technical product marketing manager. Hey, guys. >> Great to be here, thanks for having us. >> And thanks for adding a lot of color, Lucas, to our set. >> Well, I just wanted to bring enough flair that you could realize I might have something interesting to say. >> Awesome, so speaking of interesting things, tell us about Skytap, what do you guys do, who are you, where are you based? >> Great, so Skytap. Founded in 2006, so relatively old by start-up standards but it's allowed us to learn a lot about where clouded option has been going. And what we've seen is there really is an overlooked challenge that enterprises are facing today, right? So, cloud native development, growing rapidly, gonna continue to develop, but what do you do with all your old stuff, your existing applications? And so Skytap is a cloud purpose-built for modernizing those traditional applications and we do that through a process we call IPA, although we don't advocate that you drink on the job. It's Infrastructure, Process, and Architecture. And the idea is to really get yourself to true modernization and making the most of cloud, and containers, and all of the modern technologies we can see on the show floor behind us, you first need to modernize the infrastructure, get yourself out of the data center. From there, in eliminating that barrier, you're gonna be able to modernize the processes. How do you develop, how do you change your applications? And by getting better in that regard, adopting things like DevOps and agile methodologies, finally you can start to make changes to the application themselves. So, in short order, we are the cloud for modernizing traditional applications and we like to see ourselves as complementary to the folks at AWS behind us and others who are best for that cloud native web scale development of new applications. >> Great conversation this morning at the Key Note about modernizing applications. I think it's on everybody's mind because the world does not start fresh and new every day, right? We all are working with things that we've been carrying, for some cases, for years and decades. So Docker is talking about, in fact we modernized a .NET application, I think, this morning so they showed a little bit of a demo with that and kubernetes. Can you talk a little bit about how you work with Docker and, you know, some of the challenges that you work with in terms of modernizing applications? >> Yeah, Docker has a great framework with what they have with their MTA. Actually, our VP of Product, Dan Jones, presented yesterday on making modernization magical and really looking at how Skytap complements what Docker has with their MTA framework. And I think Skytap provides, with our IPA approach, a great platform for enterprises to execute the Docker MTA approach and beyond that, sort of what Skytap provides is the abilities, sort of, to move out of the data center and get away from the hardware side of things, and start to leverage some of the scale that you can get out of the cloud. >> What are some of the things that an enterprise, that a legacy application expects that it's not gonna have if you just lift and shift it. You know, why do we need Skytap? >> Yeah, I think what's important to remember is often, even just lifting and shifting it is very difficult because if you want a monolithic or traditional application that's very much wed to the infrastructure it was built on five, 10, 15 years ago, taking that and putting it in a hyper scale provider often means you gotta rewrite from scratch and that's a really arduous process, often one that creates a skills challenge in and of itself because not only do you need people to manage the existing application, you need a whole set of new skills to take a cloud-like approach to that development. So that can create a lot of challenges and so what we see here at DockerCon, really the reason we're here, is both Docker and Skytap see the next wave of cloud, the next wave of modern development, is gonna be, "How do we bring all these benefits we've seen "in Cloud Native development "to those existing applications?" and what we see ourselves doing is eliminating that infrastructure barrier so then you can really start using containers to their full benefit, whether it's in Skytap cloud, in another cloud, or both. >> So, just to follow up a little bit. So it's not just some services like, I don't know, you've gotta have authentication, and you've gotta have storage, and you've gotta have all the things that an old legacy application, sitting in a data center, expects. But it sounds like, also, there's operational services as well and being able to operate with that kind of cloud-level agility? >> Yeah, what we provide with Skytap is, you know, we have a concept of a Skytap environment and so within that environment, you can have your traditional X86, sort of, VMware-based workloads. We also support IBM power systems. So we're the only cloud that can run AIX workloads and Linux on power and so alongside that, what we get is sort of the combination of being able to bring in containers as well and so as organizations go through that modernization journey, being able to receive or see value in the hybrid applications, sort of, along the way. >> We saw a lot of stats, thanks Lucas, this morning I think one of the first ones that I saw was in the press release that Docker released which was, this morning, 85% of enterprise organizations are running a multi-cloud strategy, so that's pretty pervasive. We're also seeing stats like, up to 90%, we had Scott Johnston on earlier, their Chief Product Officer, up to 90% of enterprises are spending, sorry. Enterprises are spending up to 90% of their IT budgets just keeping the lights on for traditional applications. As you said, lift and shift isn't practical for a number of reasons. You also talked about, you know, skill-set changes there. So I'm curious, what are some of the, kind of, common challenges you're seeing in the customer environment where they might be trepidatious to go to the container journey and how specifically does Skytap and Docker knock those out of the park? >> Yeah, well those stats, I think, are really indicative of the challenge and then the new approaches that companies are trying to take to solve that challenge which is, you have so much invested in what's made your company successful, and if you're a long-standing enterprise doing well on your market, you've been doing this for 10, 15, 20, maybe more, years and you've done very well to get yourself to where you are. You've invested millions, if not billions in your infrastructure, your talent, and the people that build the systems that run your business so to burn that all to the ground and start from scratch doesn't make a lot of sense and so, I think, one challenge you run into is inertia, right. It's like "Hey, we did well to get here, "why do we need to suddenly change everything we're doing?" And Skytap's recommendation is you don't need to change everything, but you do need to prepare to be able to change much more rapidly as our economy continues to be more driven by digital technique. So you have inertia as a challenge. I think you also have that idea that if you're spending 90%, as you said, right, of what you just got with the lights on, where's the money and where's the time gonna come for net new and how can you bring those two together? And so that's really where I think Skytap would play a big role is bridging that gap from where you are today, allowing you to leverage the people that you have, the skills that they have, the technology that you have invested in. So you don't have to throw that all out overnight. And instead you can get more and more value out of it as you bring it into the cloud, gain incremental agility, and then, over time, make the modernization and evolutionary changes you want to make based on business needs, not having technology drive what your business does. >> How much of that is a cultural change that you guys can help companies understand is essential? Because culture, change in culture is obviously, especially with large enterprises, they can't pivot that quickly, but culture is essential for a company to successfully undergo digital transformation. I'm just wondering, what kind of conversations are you seeing with that inertia? How much of it is culture needs to change and mindsets to embrace, you know, moving forward? >> Yeah, I mean, we see a lot of this in the conversations we have with customers. We see a lot of it comes out of the market from what analysts sort of have to say as well and I think reasons out of an analyst article that was shared sort of publicly so it talks about, actually, enterprises who have adopted DivOps first are actually more successful in the move to containerization and that's what we see, sort of, with the customers that come to us. And what we're able to provide and what the customers see in Skytap is, actually, the simplicity of the UI that we provide is, actually, a good step from what they currently have without sort of needing to get into what can often be multiple UI's and screens in some of the hyper scale cloud providers. And then on top of that, sort of, the on-demand access to environment so you're taking away, sort of, what is typically a reactive approach from corporate IT when they need to reach out and go, "Hey, I need "another environment or I need another BM like this." And these organizations, it's often taking maybe six to eight weeks to get those environments turned around. We can provision a complex environment in less than, sort of, 30 seconds in Skytap. So it enables those teams to be a lot more productive in what they're doing. And there's sort of the first phase of deciding to sort of adopt the changing culture before sort of even getting into that move from, sort of, after linking in with legacy applications, you've gotta waterfall SDLC, and so actually moving from there into, sort of, more agile approaches and looking at how you can increase release cadence and what, sort of, comes into that from a people aspect, and a process change, and a methodology, and how Skytap, sort of, supports that along with integration with other third party's automation tools as well. >> Yeah, I think you nailed it on the culture point and I just wanted to not forget about people as being a big part of culture, right? And you have, fear is a very real thing, right? Fear of change, fear of net new. And so in our own adoption of Docker, and containers, and kubernetes internally. SO our cloud runs on a very large kubernetes cluster of containerized services so internally, over the last few years, we went through our own modernization journey. And I think that, paired with some research we've seen, we recently did a study with 451 Research looking at what enterprise tech leaders are experiencing. The fear of change, the reticence to change, and then just the lack of knowledge of, "Okay, what is required of me?" Like, "You're asking me to change overnight. "All of a sudden I have to take classes at night "while I do my day job." I think these are really, very realistic and human questions to ask and I think you need to take that into account when you're looking at digital transformation, modernization, so thinking about, "Hey, how do we communicate, "with transparency, what we expect and the time frame?" Let's be upfront about the challenges we expect to run into and where we're gonna have problems and how we'll deal with those together. And make sure the communication is crisp, and clear, and consistent, so that people at least know what's going on, even if they may not like it upfront. >> Well, Lucas, you brought up kubernetes and containers, right? We're here at DockerCon, so, obviously, containers on the tip of everybody's tongue. But you also work with legacy apps, which traditionally, I suppose at this point, traditional means a VM. So how does that go together? What are you looking at your customers? Are they able to transition to more containerized infrastructure? Are they sticking with VMs? I mean, how do modern containers fit into the Skytap platform here? >> Yeah, I think we're seeing a lot of adoption with our customers who are moving into Skytap with their traditional applications and we continue to, sort of, learn and observe what they're doing. For us, there's two types of customers that move to Skytap. The first of those are really looking to migrate their whole data center or evacuate the data centers going, "Where can I put these legacy applications?" You know, there's not many places they can sort of go and so they move them into Skytap, get them up and running in there, and sort of see some benefits in that. And then, almost organically, start to look at going, well how else can I make, or get my team to be sort of more cloud-native or cloud reading. It's sort of an evolution of the people component we were talking about before and sort of going, all right, well as I get my teams more ready for cloud native, they start to sort of move towards containers and cloud native services. For our, sort of, other organizations that come in are those who already know and probably have already experienced, you know, other cloud, sort of, modernizations and are looking at what have they been able to achieve and what do they learn from that. And seen the value in actually Skytap and actually come to us with the approach of going, "Right, we want to come in here. "We want to move to more agile sort of methods. "We want to, sort of, start to take our traditional "monolithic applications, break it down "into into microservices, and move it into containers." >> I'm curious. One of the things that Steve Singh, the CEO of Docker, said this morning during his keynote was, about half the room, there's about five to six thousand people here at DockerCon, their fifth conference, that only about half of them are already on this containerization journey. I'm curious, and I know there's no one-size-fits-all, but when you're talking to customers who are at the preface of going, "All right, we've gotta do this. "This is really an essential component "of our transformation." What's the time frame that they could look to see measurable business impact once they start working with Skytap and Docker on this container journey? >> Yeah, well, I think we've gotta move away collectively as an industry from the idea that there's a Big Bang or silver bullet approach to change, right? I spent the five previous years before joining Skytap last year at a company called Chef Software, competes with Puppet, who's here on the show floor. Automation software. And what I saw there in terms of both DevOps adoption, adoption of automation, and the transition to the cloud, is that if you think you can get everybody full sale on the same amount of change at the same time, to do that effectively in a relatively reasonable amount of time, you're going to not only fail, but by failing, you actually set yourself further back than had you taken a more iterative approach. So I think from a time perspective, I think the first answer is you'll never be done so presume that the journey will continue into perpetuity because continuing to gain agility, continuing to get better at delivering software, to deliver value to customers, I don't see an end to that in any sort of near-term in our economy so I think that's gonna go on for a long time. So digital transformation, modernization, whatever buzz word people may want to use, the idea of evolving and changing is an ongoing process. I think, then, business leaders will say, "Well, that's baloney, I need change now. "I want results." I think, start with a project that has a deadline associated with it, alright? We need to be able to deliver our customer banking app online, via mobile, by January. Okay, well, bite that off singularly and so that you focus on that first, you learn from how you do that process, and then you can take those learnings, communicate them, and pick another project and another project. So we recommend kind of an iterative, progressive approach that will put time and measurable goals around a specific project, meet those deadlines, hopefully, if you're successful, and then give you a lot to learn and operate off of the next time. >> That's great. I'm really kind of curious about looking forward and economic models. You know, everything is as a service at this point. You have a lot of traditional providers, the Dells and HPEs of the world who sell a lot of hardware still and sell a lot of things upfront and they, the analysts and everyone else scratching their heads about how they get to sell more services along with that. Skytap's already there. You're selling your cloud provider, you're selling a service, in some ways you're replacing some of the infrastructure or, you know, an adjunct to it. I'm just kind of curious, going forward, I mean, is this the future of cloud? As a service provider, how do you see the economic model of the DNA of Skytap partnering with people? We've ended up talking about process and people more than we've ended up talking about technology today. Which is kind of fascinating. But is that, project us into the future, what do you all see? >> Yeah, I think what we see today with cloud, and the microservices and container model is really the evolution of what was sort of the virtual data center and developing in sort of VMs. And so sort of going a step beyond that, we're seeing the container model grow and as you rightly pointed out, we talked a lot about people and process and I think that sort of was what's holding back a little of the enterprise adoption today and I think as organizations get into this sort of process and mindset, almost and sort of going, "Hey, things are gonna continue to evolve over time "and our organizations need to be "ready to adopt a lot of these." And this isn't just sort of your development level as well as looking at right, well how does your corporate IT teams, how do your security teams and other parts of the business realize this is gonna continue to evolve really quickly? And I think that's what we're gonna continue to see, sort of up front and it's gonna drive a lot of the adoption of the cloud native services and containers but it's gonna take a bit of time for some organizations to get there. >> Yeah, I have a soapbox, I want to stand on it real quickly. I think cloud is the way forward, right? So no one wants to be in the infrastructure business long-term. So I think regardless of what your deployment model will be, most businesses, five, 10, 15, 20 years from now, I don't see them owning a lot of data center real estate, right? So make the infrastructure someone else's problem. Whether that's Skytap, whether that's AWS, whether that's Azure, or, frankly, whether that's all of us, to your multi-cloud statistic, right? We see the same thing. It's much like the data center was today and has been for a long time. Use the right tool for the right job. You've got a mix of technologies so you're not locked in to any single vendor and you're able to fit technology to your business needs so I think, one, we're going cloud and that's gonna be the way it is. I think, two, is open source, right? I mean, that's where containers gained all their momentum where Docker did a fantastic job of really giving a vibrant community of developers an opportunity to do their work much more easy, much easier and much faster. And so I think you'll continue to see open source play a much larger component in how, even very large, long-standing businesses, develop what they're doing. And then you bring those two together, right? You look at, how can the cloud ecosystem best support open source tools to deliver and develop software that's gonna add value at the end of the day. >> Guys, I wish we had more time. Thank you so much for stopping by and sharing with us what Skytap is doing and how you're enabling customers to not just evolve from a technology standpoint but, I think, as we've all talked about here, really, what might even be more important is evolve the people and the processes. So thanks Lucas, thanks Hamish. Thanks for your time. >> Thank you so much for having us. >> We wanna thank you for watching theCUBE. Again, I'm Lisa Martin with John Troyer from DockerCon 2018. Stick around, we'll be right back with our next guest. (upbeat music)

>> Live from San Francisco, it's theCUBE, covering DockerCon 18. Brought to you by Docker and it's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of DockerCon 2018 in beautiful San Francisco. It's a stunning day here. We're at Moscone West, I'm Lisa Martin with John Troyer. Very honored to welcome to theCUBE, for the first time, the CEO of Docker Inc., Steve Singh. Welcome, Steve. >> Hi Lisa, very nice to meet you. John, how are you? >> So the general session this morning, standing room only between five and six thousand people. I gotta say a couple things that jumped out at me. One, coolest stage entrance I've ever seen with this great, if you haven't seen it from the livestream, this, like, 3D Golden Gate Bridge and I loved that and I loved the demo of Docker Desktop that your kids did, fueled by Mountain Dew, which actually single handedly got me through college here in San Francisco. So, the momentum that you guys, it was kicking off with a bang. >> Yeah, I, look, I've got a great team and one of the things we wanted to communicate this morning is that you're seeing a massive transformation in the world of software. And this transformation is enabling every company in the world to think about their business in a new light. To think about how their business meets customer needs in a way that's much more personal, in a way that delivers more value. And this is the beauty of where Docker is, right, we have a chance to help literally every company in the world. And that's the part, honestly, that gets me excited, is, like, how do you help other people go create amazing businesses? And so this is, I couldn't be more happy to be at Docker. >> Steve, keying on that, one of the customers on stage today, McKesson. >> Yeah. >> And I loved Rashmi Kumar came out and talked about future-proofing for applications, their infrastructure, their applications in partnership with Docker. >> Yeah. And that implies a certain amount of trust that they have in Docker and Docker's technology platform and in partnering with you. You come from a, so you've been at Docker for about a year now, right? Came in as CEO. Docker is still a small company, a couple hundred folks but punching way above its weight with a huge community impact. How do you, and, you know, you've worked with the biggest companies in the world, how do you come in and establish that trust and help reassure them that you're gonna be a good partner for them and, kinda, what are you seeing with your customers? >> It's a great question, John, and look, there's maybe two or three pieces of how we think about that. The first thing, trust is very human, right? You've gotta know that you're walking into a situation as a vendor and as a customer but really as partners. And you're trying to solve a problem together. Because the reality is, this transformation that companies are going through is the first time in 40 years that this kind of transformation has happened. Second is, the technology stack is still in the early stages. Now, it's incredible and it enables amazing things, but it's still in the early stages. So both of us have to walk into the relationship knowing that, you know what, sometimes it won't go perfect, but guess what? We're gonna be, you know, if it doesn't go perfect we're gonna honor everything we ever committed to you and the same thing on the customer's side. They look at it and say, "I may have actually described my needs differently than what they actually are." And that's what a real partnership is. That's number one. Number two is, trust is driven by culture. And one of the things that I love about Docker is that we see our place in the world but we wanna make sure the customer always has choice. We wanna make sure that if we do a great job the customer will choose to work with us. If we don't, they should have the choice to go somewhere else. And that's what our platform enables, is the choice to be able to work with anybody you'd like to work with, whether you're the developer or you're an operator or you're an IT, I'm sorry, an architect, or the executive. The other piece around this is that part of the value of Docker is it's not just the 400 people of our company, right? There's 5,000 members of our community that are adding value to our community. One of the things that I wanna make sure we do for our community is help them not just innovate on this incredible platform but how do we help them take their innovations to market? And so that's part of the ethos of our company. >> One of the things that you talked about this morning that I thought was really compelling was, you said software innovation used to be, for the last 40 years, it's been driven by tech companies. That's changing. You talked about distributed innovation and distributed consumption. How is Docker helping to, culturally, I don't wanna say instill, but helping to influence, maybe, organizations to be able to distribute innovation and be able to share bi-directionally? >> Yeah, so, a great question, Lisa. So, first of all, is there's a cultural change within companies. When you think about the next generation or the next 40 years being, software being driven from non-technology companies. First of all, we're seeing that. Second is that it requires a cultural change within the business but that change is critical 'cause in the absence of becoming more of a software company your business is gonna be under threat, right? From the competing business. Look at what Netflix has done in media compared to every other media company. That same example applies in every single industry. Now, the way that we help enable that software transformation is to provide a platform that is so easy to use that it doesn't require a lot of training. Now this is complicated platforms, so, yes you have to be a fantastic developer or an IT professional but our job is to take complicated technology like container management software, orchestration layers like Swarm or Kubernetes, service mesh, storage networking, all of those, and make it so simple and easy to use that your IT department can say, "I can use this platform to effectively future-proof your company," right? So, how do you have a platform that you can build every application on, take all of you legacy applications on, run it, and then run it anywhere you like. >> I think that's been one of the through lines for Docker since the very beginning, that developer experience, right? >> Yes. >> And what's been interesting in Docker's development was, I think for both inside and outside, is kind of, what is Docker Inc, and the project versus the company, what is it selling, what's the commercial aspect here? I think, I kind of think back to my experience at BMWare, where there was an enterprise side and then a huge install base of workstation folks. And it's even stronger with Docker because actually now with Docker Desktop as an application development environment or a, you know, I don't wanna, not quite development environment but, you know, the one you announced today with Docker Desktop. That's an even more valuable through line into the Enterprise Edition. >> Yeah. >> But I don't, so, I guess where I'm heading, Steve, is, can you talk a little bit about the commercial situation? Docker EE as the flagship platform. >> Yeah, of course. >> And, kind of, where we are in the maturity journey with customers right now, it's real and important. >> Absolutely John, but you're bringing up a great point within this. Look, we're both, we're a enterprise software company and we're this incredible community where innovation is being brought in by every member of the community. And there's nothing in the world that says you can't do both. This idea that you're one company versus another, this is nonsense, alright? It's a very narrow view of the world. In fact, I would argue that, more and more, companies have to think about that they have multiple people that they serve. Multiple constituents that they serve. In our case we serve the Enterprise IT organization and we also serve developers. And developers are a critical part, not just of our community, that is the life of every company going forward. Which is why we're so excited about this. That's the life of every company. So, Docker Desktop, the reason we're so excited about it is, first of all, it is the easiest way to engage with Docker, to build applications. And then we feel like there's a lot more innovation that we can actually deliver within Docker Desktop. Alright, so a million new developers joined on Docker Desktop this year. In fact, we're growing about seven or eight percent month over month on that. And so you should expect over the next year another million will be on Docker Desktop. But it's incumbent upon us to say, the only way that we continue to earn the trust of that portion of our constituents, that of the developer community, is to make sure we're innovative, to make sure we're open to allow others to innovate on top of us. >> I'd love to, kind of, explore on audience a little bit. So, in terms of innovation, you know, we know that the companies that have the ability to aggressively innovate, and to do that they have to have the budget, are the ones that stay relevant and that are the most competitive. But I think I saw some stats and I think Scott Johnson said that close to 90 percent of IT budgets are spent keeping the lights on. So you have very little dollars to actually drive innovation. So when you're talking with customers, and you said you just met with 25 of Docker Inc's biggest customers just this morning, are you talking to both the developer guys and girls as well as the C suite? >> Yeah. >> What is, how are you connecting and then, maybe, is it a conversation to enable the developers to be able to sell the value up the stack or is it vice versa? >> A couple of things here, so, first of all, John, I didn't answer part of your question which is the growth in our Enterprise customer base. We've literally doubled it year over year, right? So, more than 500 Global 10,000 companies that are using Docker to run their applications and to manage their applications. The way that we engage with our customers is literally across the entire constituents of that organization, right? A developer by themselves, as genius as that group of people are, you can't deliver the application. And delivering the application is just as important as building it. And so the IT organization, the ops organization is critical. And then there's gotta be an overriding objective. What is it we're trying to do? How do we transform ourselves into a software company? You think about, think about just for example, Tesla, right? When you have a company, and I realize Tesla's stock goes up and down, they're always in the news, but when you have a company that's worth more than some of the biggest automotive companies in the world, you have to ask yourself why. Well, part of the reason why isn't just the fact that we've got an electric vehicle that's better for the environment. Part of it is, it's really as much a software company as it is a automotive company. They have incredible amounts of data about how we use our cars, where we go, and in fact the Tesla cars are actually interconnected. And so, that brings a perspective in how you build cars and how they're gonna be used and how they're gonna be consumed that's radically different than if you're just an auto manufacturer. Now, look, Ford and GM and Volvo are all really smart, great companies and they're quickly moving through to themselves being software companies. >> Steve, can you talk a little bit about ecosystems? Microsoft, on stage this morning, a long partnership with them but also here at the show, right, enterprise folks, Dell and Accenture and I'm just looking down the list as well as Google and Amazon, right? So, you need to be partnering with a lot of folks to make all this work. How are you approaching that? >> John, part of the reason for that is, let's start with a simple premise, is something this large, alright, you can't possibly innovate fast enough on your own, alright? There's seven billion amazing people on this planet. The only way you can really drive mass scale global innovation, is you have to be open, right? I'm literally a guy that was born in a mud house in India, so I certainly appreciate the opportunity to participate in the rest of the world's economy. So we have to be open to say, anybody that wants to contribute, can. Now, obviously we think that contribution has to be within an ethos, right? If your definition of contribution is how do you help your own business, that's not good enough. You have to look at this and say, there has to be choice, in our view, choice, security and agility. So, how do we deliver those values or that ethos to our customers? And if you're willing to do that, man we want to partner with everybody in this space. >> Yeah, I, sometimes I despair of the tech press, although I consume a lot of it and if I never have to read another Swarm versus Kubernetes article again I would be happy. But Kubernetes' all over the keynote and it seems like Docker you all have embraced it and in fact are supporting it in very innovative ways with the cloud providers. In terms of ecosystem can you talk a little bit about-- >> Yeah, well, part of the value of Docker is we simplify very complex things and make it available to our customers to consume with little training, little understanding of the underlying deep technology. And the other part is that it comes back to this idea that innovation will happen everywhere. Why should we view the world as it's our solution or, you know, nobody's? That's nonsense, right? Kubernetes is a fantastic orchestrational entity. Why shouldn't it be integrated into the Docker container platform? And so, as we did that, guess what happened? Our customers, all they saw was, instead of conflict they saw the opportunity to work together. In fact it's been amazing for the growth in our business, that's why ewe doubled year over year. >> Now, collaboration is essential and we were talking with Scott Johnson a little bit earlier today about the internal collaboration but also the external collaboration with customers. You talked about partnerships, I think that the MTA program, the Modernization of Traditional Apps launched about a year ago with Avanade, Cisco, HPE and Microsoft. Tell us a little bit about that, probably around the same time that you came to the helm. You're seeing, you know, customers like Visa, PayPal as part of this program, be able to transform and go to the container journey. >> Yeah, and Lisa, this speaks to an observation you made a few minutes ago about the fact that, you know, 85, 90% of IT budgets are fixed before you even walk into the year. So, look, the Docker platform can be used for any kind of application. Legacy apps, next generation apps that run in the data center, next generation apps that run on Edge devices. But if you accept that 90% of the apps that sit within a company are all legacy apps, well, guess what, that's where their cost is. And then if you marry that to the fact that every CIO has this problem that I don't have a lot of money that's free in my budget. Well, how do we help solve that? And the way we chose to solve it is this Docker MTA solution. Modernizing Traditional Apps. Take your traditional apps, run 'em on the Docker platform, run 'em on any infrastructure you like, cut your app and infrastructure management costs in half. Now, then take that savings and then apply it towards innovation. This is why it resonates with CIO's. I mean, as much as they may love Docker and they may love us, they have a business to serve and they're very, very practical in how they think about, you know, going about their business. >> So with that approach, thanks John, how receptive were those enterprise CIO's to going, "You're right, we've gotta start with our enterprise apps." They don't have the luxury of time, of ripping out old infrastructure and building them on containers or microservices architectures. And these are often mission-critical applications. Was that an easy sell, was that, tell me about that. >> (laughs) Well, nothing's easy but the reality is, is that it, they got it quickly, right? Because it speaks directly to their paying point. And what I'm very proud of with my team is not only were we able to deliver a great product for MTA but we're also helping our customers actually make sure they can migrate these apps over. But what's been really a positive, you know, kind of a signal we've seen, that's still the early stages, is that as our customers are moving their legacy apps to Docker and running 'em on new infrastructure, sometimes public cloud, and cutting costs, they're starting to take that cost savings and actually applying it to their next generation apps. So they're not using Docker for new apps. And so that is, that's the benefit of when you really try to solve the problem the way the customer wants to consume it. >> So, Steve, the user conference, very energizing, right. >> Yeah. >> Already the energy's been good here, you've been doing trainings and certifications, there's people behind us, everyone's talking, so that kind of in some ways sets the tone for the year, so as you and your team go back to the office after this week, you know, what are you looking to do and what can we expect out of Docker? >> I'll just speak to two things. First of all, there's so much innovation we still have to deliver. If anything, you know, I would say my team will tell me I might be pushing a little hard. But you know what, this is the fun, you only have x number of years in life and you should make the most of it. So we're really excited about new apps, we're excited about SecurEdge apps. We're excited about, I don't know if you saw the demo this morning, of Armada, which allows you to run any app on any operating system, on any infrastructure, all from a single pane of glass. Our customers love that and they're very excited about that. That said, you know, this is a, it's a big test. We have a huge opportunity to welcome a lot of other companies, so when you walk around and see 5,000 people that see amazing opportunity, not just for Docker, for themselves, right? That's the secret part of Docker that I love. We're creating jobs that didn't exist before, right? I mean, you see kids coming out of college now getting Docker skills and they're using that to grow their IT profession. In fact, I was just at i.c.stars, this is an amazing organization in Chicago that helps individuals who've been displaced in the workforce learn the IT skills required to come back to the workforce and really help run internal IT organizations. Guess what they're learning? They're learning Docker. So that's, these are the kind of things that get us excited. >> And that's essential for enterprise organizations who, that's one of the challenges they face, was, you know, modernizing the data center, which they have to do, but then it requires new skill sets, maybe upskilling, so it's exciting to hear that you're seeing this investment in people that have an opportunity, the proclivity to actually learn this technology. >> Yeah, this is, we are happy because we help customers but we also create amazing new jobs that, you know, are, certainly our community can still benefit from. >> So, last question, the three themes that came out of your session and really the general session this morning was, you talked about someone's choice, agility and security. Are those the three pillars that you believe Docker, upon which Docker sits as really competitive differentiators? >> Amen, amen, number one, but it's also our values, right? This is rooted in our values and when a company performs best is when their values show up in their products. Because then you're never lost, you'll always know what you're focused on. And you know, when I ran Concur, we had this vision, north star, called The Perfect Trip. And our objective was to always go create a delightful business trip experience. And for Docker I wanna make sure that we have a north star. And our north star is our values and they have to translate directly to what actually helps the customer. >> Love that, the north star. Well, hopefully theCUBE is the north star of modern tech media. Steve, thanks so much for stopping by. >> Thank you, it's wonderful to meet you. It was great to meet you as well and congratulations on the big success. >> Thank you. >> We look forward to hearing-- >> Thank you Lisa, thank you John. >> What's coming out in the next year. >> Thank you. >> And we wanna thank you for watching theCUBE, I'm Lisa Martin with John Troyer today live from San Francisco DockerCon 2018. Stick around, we'll be back after a short break. (upbeat music)

from San Francisco it's the queue covering Red Hat summit 2018 brought to you by Red Hat hey welcome back everyone here live in San Francisco at Moscone West of cubes exclusive coverage of Red Hat summit 2018 I'm John four with mykos John Troy a founder of tech reckoning advisory and on community services firm our next guest is Jason O'Connell openshift platform owner of mark mcquarrie group welcome to the cubes let's get it right that's right well the retail bank of Macquarie so thank you and financial services thanks for coming on so bossy begging is pretty hot big time early adopter of all things tech yes and you doing a lot of work at kubernetes tell us about what you're doing take a minute to explain your job what your focus is some of the some of the environment DevOps things you're doing it's a basically I'm head of the container platform team at Macquarie Bank so basically my team manages open shifts on AWS we do the architecture on there but we also focus a lot on the value add on top so we don't just give our our customers for my team are the developers and the development teams we don't just give them a blank platform we do a lot of automation a lot of work on top of that basically because we want to make sure that the idea of a platform as a service is that we do as much as possible to make developers lives easy talk about the journey when did you start on this effort Asli Amazon's great cloud we use it as well other clouds are coming on you had Google and Microsoft and others but when did the open shift conversations start happening where were you what year was it how long have you been using it it's gone through some great changes I want to get your experience on that open shifter journey I mean somewhat of an early adopter I mean we started looking at this two years ago so that was openshift 3.1 a lot of the basic features weren't even there and it took us a year to both build it out as well as migrate about 40 applications to production so it was only a year ago that we've been in production so it's evolved like so rapidly during that time so 40 applications migrating right that enough in and of itself in a year is is a pretty heavy lift can you talk a little bit about are you just re platforming the applications obviously probably not rewriting at this point the open shift has been a good home for the applications that you started out with it sounds like I mean one of the reasons to choose open shift was docker and it was about that migration path I mean part of the migration was ensuring that developers could get everything running locally get these legacy systems we did a lot of micro services running locally on docker containers on their laptop then the migration was was easy from there but we deliberately didn't want to do like a lift and shift we wanted to rethink how we delivered software as part of this project okay what's the biggest challenges you had in doing this I mean as you can open ships got some great movement Houston Cooper native good bet and kubernetes is looking like a really awesome way to move workloads around and manage containers and clusters so you know what's what are some of the things we've learned what are some of the complexities that you overcame can you share a little bit about some of the specifics I think I think the newness is is probably the biggest challenge I mean going back to two years ago there was some very basic components that weren't there at the time and we knew were coming and even now there are pieces of work which we just don't tackle and we do a very quick fix because we know it's coming later I mean it's just moving and evolving so quickly you know we're waiting a lot for sto which is coming in the future so we're holding back on investing in certain areas because of that so it's always a constant challenge yeah I still looking good and the service mesh is hot as well how has OpenShift helped you but what's the list if you had to kind of boil it down what's the bin the the impact to you guys where's the where's that coming from I mean before we even selected OpenShift we had we're looking at our objectives from a business perspective not a technology perspective I'm the biggest objective we had was speed to delivery you know how could you get a business idea a product idea into production as fast as possible or even if you look at a minor fix to something something that should be easier develop it takes a data ride why does it take a month to release the production so speed of delivery was one of the key objectives and I can tell you more about how we we delivered that in detail but just going back to the objectives we also looked at developer experience you know sometimes the developers are not spending enough time coding and doing it they want they get bogged down in a lot of other pieces of work that I I'm really delivering business value yeah so again we wanted the platform to handle that for them they could focus more on their work this is the promise of DevOps and the whole idea of DevOps is to automate away the hassles and I mean my partner Dave a lot that calls a rock fetches no one likes to do all that work it's like can someone else just handle it and then when you got now automation that frees it up but this brings up the thing that I would love to get your reaction to because one things we've been covering and talking a lot about in the cube is this isn't happening around us it's not just what we're doing but this new modern way to deploy software you'll get like some of the big things that are happening in with cloud native and you mission is do is to do this awesome dynamic things on the fly that are automated away so it changes the how software is being built how are you guys embracing that what's the thought obviously you've got a team that's got the mindset of dev yeah I'll see embracing this vision and if everything else is probably substandard she'll you look at you know waterfall or any kind of non agile what is the your view of this modern era of writing code and building applications what I mean for people who don't aren't getting it how are you how do you explain it you know I think it's I mean it's an unbelievable time that we're in at the moment I mean the amount of automation that we're doing is huge and part of our openshift is that it's an automated bull platform so I've got a few junior guys in my team they're like two graduates and in turn they do a lot of the automation yeah it's that easy if you look at interestingly in like security and risk teams and governance teams where we're finding look they can improve security risk and all this by automating you know they're the one set and now we've got SEC offs movements and things like that so speed of production is is does not prohibit better security and in fact with Sec ups the amount of automation we do you got a far greater amount of security because we now know everything that's deployed we can continually scanning for vulnerabilities yeah so Jason you talked about it being new we've talked a little bit about culture how much of this has been a training exercise how much is that it's been a cultural shift within your organization as one of the leaders of it how are you approaching I mean we're lucky there within Macquarie Bank there was a large scale culture shift towards agile where the whole bank runs in that gel manner so that's helped us then fill in our technology and automation it complements that way of delivering so we've got some very unique ways where we've done automation and delivery which completely rethinks how we used to deliver before so right example yeah for instance now if you think why were people scared of delivering something into production why was a small change scary change and a big part of it is the blast radius if something went wrong you know connecting through to our API is we've got our own channels mobile apps a website you've got a lot of partners there are the companies connecting through as well and so even if you did a small change if it costs an issue everyone's affected at once so a big piece of what we did to deliver faster is allowed targeted releases you know I could target a release and a change just to you we could target it to a percentage of customers monitor rolled out quickly if there's a problem dial it up if it's looking good good target to any channel it seems like there's a business benefit to that too right that's massive here because you also can promise stability on certain channels if you want you can have faster channels that are moving quickly and in an API driven world we've got external companies connecting through to these api's you want to be able to say that we've given you a stable offering and you can upgrade when you want and then our channels we cannot move more fast so we've got a minister no-brainer I mean really the old way is completely dead because of that because I think what the blast radius you're pointing about blast radius the risk is massive so everyone's kind of on edge all these tests have to go in redundancies as if the planning is ridiculous all for the risk all that energy you're optimizing for a potential non-event or event here with micro services and you an out can go down to the granular level the granularity is really amazing so when you go forward first of all it's a recruiting opportunity to get better engineers wait this is a way we work I'm going forward I want you to comment on your opinion as an industry participant and can clarify this because a lot of people get confused here Automation they think jobs are going away administration is getting automated system admin type roles where junior people can now do more operating things but the operating roles not going away so talk about that that ops side because now the ops are more efficient the right things are audited maybe but talk about that dynamic between the right things being automated and the right things that are gonna roll to operational service messages or whatnot yeah I mean basically it's about getting people to do these higher-order functions so the people who are doing things manually and operating things manually you look at our Ops teams now morphing into like the classic SRE team you know the side reliability engineering teams where they're spending a significant amount of that time automating things you know looking at alerting and monitoring and then Auto healing I mean it's actually more work to automate everything but with a far greater amount of quality and reliability and what we get and the benefits are long it's worth it basically you do the work upfront and you reap the benefits and then variety away it's like writing rolling out software managing workloads talk about multi class here on Amazon multi cloud is a big focus to your hybrid cloud multi-cloud obviously we're seeing that trend how do you look at multi cloud as a practitioner what are some of the things that check our check boxes for you in terms of okay as we start looking to the next level there might be a multiple cloud scenario how do you think about that and how do you put that into perspective that's worth noting even two years ago and we selected openshift it was with the idea that we could go multi cloud you know that for the users for the developers they're not going to know the difference where we run it on so we're not locked into any provider final question for you if you can boil down openshift into kind of like a soundbite for you what does it mean to you guys what's been the benefit what's been it it's been that what's been the role what's the benefit of OpenShift as you pour the cloud journey you know I could say speed I could say automation I mean that's huge but but really open shift and read how to pick the winner which is docker and kubernetes and a colleague of mine is in coop con in Copenhagen last week he's constantly messaging me saying there's new tooling you guys can use this you can use that and it means that rather than us doing the work we're just getting tooling from the community so it's the de facto standards so that's that's probably the biggest benefit all the goodness is just coming right to your front door luckily and I got to do my homework every night playing around with this technology so yeah gates success story and again the great community open-source projects out there you guys can bring that in and productize it for the retail bank congratulations love open-source stories like this tier one citizen and again continues to power the world open source softens the cube do our part bring and use all the data from Red Hat summit 2018 I'm John fryer with John Tory we'll be back with more after this short break

>> Announcer: Live, from San Francisco. It's the CUBE. Covering Red Hat Summit 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat. >> Okay, welcome back everyone. This is the CUBE. We're here in San Francisco live, wrapping up our third day of coverage at Red Hat Summit 2018. I'm John Furrier. Great event and here, our special guest appearance as our closing analyst. I've been here all week with John Troyer. He had to leave early to get down to San Jose. John Troyer is the co-founder of TechReckoning, which is an advisory and community development firm and in his place we have Keith Norbie who's the Senior Manager at NetApp, doing business development, DevOps pro, former solidifier, really at the heart of the NetApp that's transforming. Here as my guest analyst, welcome, welcome to the CUBE. >> Yeah, thank you. >> Thanks for coming in and sharing your knowledge. And to wrap up the show, really a lot going on. And I know you've been super busy. You had an appreciation of that last night with NetApp. You had customers there. But I really wanted you to come on and help me wrap up the show because you're also at the kernel of DevOps, right, where DevOps and storage, we were talking last night about the role of storage, but that's just an indication of what's going on across the board of all resources. Invisible infrastructure is the new normal and that is what people want. They want it to be invisible but they want that highly performant, they want it scalable. So roles are changing, industries are changing, application development is changing. Everything is changing with cloud scale at an unprecedented level and Red Hat is at the center of it with the kernel Linux operating system. It's all about the OS. >> Yeah. >> That's my takeaway from the show. What's your takeaway, what's your analysis here of Red Hat Summit? >> Well first off, you know, 7,000 people is a heck of a lot of growth. In some of the birthplaces of VM world, we have the new birthplace of open being real, and Red Hat's been the really the true company that's taken open and done something with it. >> What's the big, most important story for you here this week? What jumps out at you that jumps off the page and says, wow, that's happening, this is real, obviously open source, going to a whole 'nother level, the cat's been out of the bag for awhile on that, but really, it's just about the exponential growth of open source, Linux Foundation's Jim Zemlin talks about this all the time, so okay, that's not to me the most important, so that's just reality. >> Yeah. >> But what jumped off the page for you here? >> I think they said it best in one of the keynotes where they went from this being a concept of cheap to a concept of being functional or capable. So it's the c-to-c transition of cheap to capable and it is about trying to unlock the capabilities of what this show delivers, not just on Red Hat's platform but across the ecosystem. And as you see that play out in any one technology sector, you know, we've been talking DevOps which I think has been a phenomenal study in and of itself saying you know, we've gone from a lot of thought leadership a lot of, if you go to DevOps Enterprise Days, they'll talk a lot about culture and operational things to now seeing a maturation in the industry to actually have, you know, some very specific capabilities and customer (mumbles) models. >> I think the thing that jumped out, for me, Keith, I want to get your reaction to it, is that DevOps ethos, which has been around for awhile, not a lot, you know, a couple years, eight years maybe, since cloud really native really kicked in. But the ethos of open source, the ethos of DevOps, infrastructure as code is not just for software development anymore because as the things that are catalyzing around digital transformation, with Kubernetes becoming a defacto standard, with the role of containers, with server-less and all this infrastructure being programmable, the application market is about to go through a massive Renaissance, and you're seeing those changes rendered in the workplace. So the DevOps and open source ethos is going everywhere. It's not just development, it's marketing, it's how people manage their businesses and work force structure. You're seeing blockchain and decentralized applications on the horizon. This new wave is not just about DevOps for infrastructure as code, it's the world as code, it's business as code, it's everything as code so if you're doing anything with a waterfall, it's probably outdated. >> Yeah, everything has its different pace and its cadence in different industries and that's the hard thing to predict for everybody. Everybody that's coming here from different walks and enterprises of life is trying to figure out how to do this. And that permeates out into, you know, vehicles and IoT edge devices, back to the core part of the data centers and the cloud and you've got to have answers for really the three parts of that equation in different modes and ultimately equal a business equation, a business transformation. >> What did you learn here? I'll just tell you my learning, something that wasn't obvious that I learned that's validated in my mind and they didn't talk about it much on stage in Red Hat. Maybe they do off the record, maybe it's confidential information, maybe it's not. But my observation is that the Red Hat opportunity is really global. And the global growth of Red Hat, outside the United States and Europe is really where the action is. You look at Asia and third-world countries with mobile penetration. The global growth for Red Hat and Linux is astronomical. To me, that clearly came through, when I squint through the puzzle pieces and say, okay, where's the growth coming from? Certainly containers, Linux containers is going to be bigger than Rel, so that's going to be a check on the financial results. That's good growth. But it's really outside the United States. I'm like, wow, this is really not just a North America phenomenon. >> Yeah, and really, demand is demand. And at NetApp we see this in APAC almost more so than a lot of the other parts of the world. The pace of innovation and the demand for innovation you know, just kind of finds its way naturally into this market. You know, this whole community and open source approach you know, sort of incubates a lot more innovation and then the pace of the innovation, in my opinion, just by natural fellowship of these people. And the companies trying to innovate in the segment with these things. >> So what did you learn this week? What was something that you learned this week that you didn't know before or you had a hunch or you validated it here? What is something that's unique that you could share that you've learned or validated or have an epiphany? Share some color commentary on the show. >> Yeah, I think there's a little bit of industry maturation, where this technology isn't just like a Linux thing and a thing for infrastructure people trying to do, you know, paths or container automation or something technical. But it's equating out to industry solutions like NFE and Telco is a great example, you know, where all of us want to get to a 5G phone, and the problem is, is that they've got to build a completely reprogrammable, almost completed automated edge cloud type of network. And you can't do that with appliances, so they have to completely reprogram and build a new global scale of autonomy on a platform and it's awesome how like complex and how much technology is there and what it really comes down to is us having a faster phone. (laughter) It's amazing how you have all that, and it equals something so simple that my 14-year old daughter, you know, can have a new obsession with how fast the new phone is. >> I mean, (mumbles) digital transformation in all aspects, IoT edge, you mentioned that, good stuff. I got to ask you, while you're here, about NetApp, obviously, SolidFire, a great acquisition from NetApp, some transformation going on within NetApp. What's going on there? You guys got a good vibe going on right now, some good team recruiting. You guys recruit some great people, as well as the SolidFire folks. What's going on in NetApp? >> Well, yeah, I was part of the SolidFire team and that was a great group of people to really see the birth of the next generation data center through that lens of the SolidFire team. As we've come to NetApp now, we've really seen that be able to be incubated into the family of NetApp, really into three core missions, you know, modernizing data centers, you know, with an all flash approach to the ONTAP and FAS solutions, taking the SolidFire assets and really transforming that to the next level in the form of an HCI solution, you know, which is really to deliver simplicity for various consumption of economics and agility of operations within an organization. And then, you know, having that technology also show up in the marketplace at Amazon and Azure. And this week we announced Google. So it's been fun to see, not just the SolidFire thing come to life in its own mission, but how that starts to federate in this data fabric, you know, across three different missions. And then when it really gets exciting, to me, is how it applies into things that help people transform their business, like we talked DevOps and unlocking that and some of the config automation with Ansible, unlocking it some of the things with open shift that we're doing with Trident in the container automation across three of our platforms. And then seeing how this also comes to life with other factors with code and RD factory management or CIC piplup Jenkins. It's about tying this entire floor together in ways that makes it easy for people to mature and just get more agile. >> And it's a new growth for the ecosystem. We're seeing, you know, some companies that try to get big venture-backed financing, trying to monetize something that's hard to do if you're not Linux. I mean, Linux's a free product. It's all about Linux and the operating system. So, Linux is the enabler. >> Absolutely. >> To all of this and whoever can configure it in a way that's horizontally scalable, asynchronous and with microservices architecture wins the cloud game, 'cause the cloud game is just now creating clear visibility. The role that open source plays, being open I mean, look at the role that Hypervisor closed and proprietary, harder to innovate in a silo. If you're open, innovation's collective, collective intelligence. >> And I thought that one of the keynote demos, on Day One, Tuesday morning, to me, was one of the more powerful ones, where they showed a VM environment being transformed into container automation. Like literally a SQL environment being on into a container-based environment from previously being in a VM environment. And traditional IT doesn't have to do a whole lot of heavy lifting there. You know, people want that ability, kind of inch into it and then transform at their own time scale. >> Yeah, I think the big takeaway from me here in the show to kind of wrap things up is Red Hat has an opportunity to leapfrog the competition in way that's not a lone wolf kind of approach. It's like they're doing it with a collective of the whole. The second thing that jumps out at me, I think this is really game-changing for the business side of it is that because they're open with Linux and the way the ecosystem's evolving around cloud, the business issues that enterprises face, in my opinion, is really about, how do I bring in the new capability, okay of cloud, cloud scale and all asynchronous new infrastructure and applications without killing the old? And containers and Kubernetes and Openshift allow companies to slow roll the lifecycle or let workloads either live and just hang around or kind of move out on their own timetable, so you get the benefits of lift and shift with containers without killing the existing old ways while bringing in new innovation. This, to me, is an absolute game changer. I think it's going to accelerate the adoption to cloud. And it's a win-win. >> Absolutely. Transform agility. >> Cool, well Keith, thanks for coming on. Any final thoughts from yourself here on the show observations, anecdotes, stories? >> You know, sometimes less is more and this show has, you know, in a lot of ways both gotten more complex, but I would argue also much more simple and clear about directional paths that organizations can take. And that is working backwards from cloud what cloud is teaching the rest of us is that both, you know, functions more so than technology, and agility in terms of the ability to consume at the pace of the business. Those two things are the ways to take all this complexity and simplify it down into a couple of core statements. >> Someone asked me last night, what I thought about the current situation in the industry and I want to get your response to this, and get your reaction. I said, if a company is not making tweaks to their business, they're probably not positioned for success, meaning, with all the new things that have developed just in the past 12 to 18 months, if they're not tweaking something in some material, meaningful way, not like, not completely replatformizing or changing a business model. A tweak, whether it's to their marketing, or their tech or whatever, then they're probably stuck. And what I mean by that is that new things have happened in the past 18 months that are moving the needle on what the future holds. And to me, that's a tell sign when someone says is someone doing well? I just look at 'em. Well, they were kind of just doing the same thing they did 18 months ago. They really, they're talking a game, but they're not changing anything. So if they're not changing anything, it's probably broken. Your thoughts? >> Yeah, it was best said in terms if you look at the the Fortune 100 right now and contrast that with, you know, 10 or 15 years ago and it's a different landscape. And projecting that out another even five years, the rate of acceleration on this is a brutal scale. And so any company that's not thinking through transformation, you know. My kids are the future consumers. You know, they grew up as digital natives. You know, we're all migrants and they just automatically assume all these things are going to be there for them in their rhetoric, in their rationale. And the current companies of today have got to figure that out, you know, and if they don't start now, you know, they might be out of business in five years. >> If you're standing still, you get rolled over. That's my opinion. CUBE coverage here, of course, wrapping up our show here at Red Hat Summit 2018. We've been in the open all week here in the middle of the floor at Moscone West in San Francisco, live for the past three days. All the footage on Silicon Angle.com as to articles from our reporting, the CUBE.net is where all the videos will live and check out wikibon.com for all the research. Keith, thanks for being our guest analyst in the wrap up, 'ppreciate it and congratulations on all your success at as Business Development Exec at NetApp and the SolidFire stuff. Great you coming on. DevOps culture going mainstream. Software's powering the world. This is the programmable world we live in powered by Linux. Of course, the CUBE's there, covering it. Thanks for watching. Red Hat 2018, we'll see you next show.

(upbeat electronic music) >> Narrator: Live from San Francisco, it's The Cube, covering Red Hat Summit 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat. >> Hey, welcome back, everyone. We are here live, The Cube in San Francisco, Moscone West for the Red Hat Summit 2018 exclusive coverage. I'm John Furrier, the cohost of The Cube. I'm here with my cohost, John Troyer, who is the co-founder of Tech Reckoning, an advisory and community development firm. Our next guest is Jonathan Donaldson, Technical Director, Office of the CTO, Google Cloud. Former Cube Alumni. Formerly was Intel, been on before, now at Google Cloud for almost two years. Welcome back, good to see you. >> Good to see you too, it's great to be back. >> So, had a great time last week with the Google Cloud folks at KubeCon in Denmark. Kubernetes, rocking the world. Really, when I hear the word de facto standard and abstraction layers, I start to get, my bells go off, let me look at that. Some interesting stuff. You guys have been part of that from the beginning, with the CNCF, Google, Intel, among others. Really created a movement, congratulations. >> Yeah, thank you. It really comes down to the fact that we've been running containers for almost a dozen years. Four billion a week, we launch and collapse. And we know that at some point, as Docker and containers really started to take over the new way of developing things, that everyone is going to run into that scalability wall that we had run into years and years and years ago. And so Craig and the team at Google, again, I wasn't at Google at this time, but they had a really, let's take what we know from internally here and let's take those patterns and let's put them out there for the world to use, and that became Kubernetes. And so I think that's really the massive growth there, is that people are like, "Wow, you've solved a problem, "but not from a science project. "It's actually from something "that's been running for a decade." >> Internally, that's called bore. That's tools that Google used, that their SRE cyber lab engineers used to massively provision manage. And they're all software engineers, so it's not like they're operators. They're all Google engineers. But I want to take a minute, if you can, to explain. 'Cause you're new to Google Cloud. You're in the industry, you've been around, you helped form the CNCF, which is the Cloud Native Foundation. You know cloud, you know tech. Google's changed a lot, and Google Cloud specifically has a narrative of, they're one big cloud and they have an application called Google stuff and enterprises are different. You've been there now for almost a year or more. >> Jonathan: Little over a year, yeah. >> What's Google Cloud like right now? Break the myths down around Google Cloud. What's the current status? I know personally, a lot of cloud DNA is coming in from the industry. They've been hiring, making some great progress. Take a minute to explain the Google Cloud. >> Yeah, so it's really interesting. So again, it comes back from where you started from. So Google itself started from a scale consumer SAS type of business. And so that, they understood really well. And we still understand, obviously, uptime and scalability really, really well. And I would say if you backtrack several years ago, as the enterprise really started to look at public clouds and Google Cloud itself started to spin up, that was probably not, they probably didn't understand exactly all of the things that an enterprise would need. Really, at that point in time, no one cloud understood any of the enterprise specifically. And so what they did is they started hiring in people like myself and others that are in the group that I'm in. They're former CIOs of large enterprise companies or former VPs of engineering, and really our job in the Office of the CTO for Google Cloud is to help with the product teams, to help them build the products that enterprises need to be able to use the public cloud. And then also work with some of those top enterprise customers to help them adopt those technologies. And so I think now that if you look at Google Cloud, they understand enterprise really, really well, certainly from the product and the technology perspective. And I think it's just going to get better. >> I interviewed Jennifer Lynn, I had a one-on-one with her. I didn't publish it, it was more of a briefing. She runs Product Management, all on security side. >> Jonathan: Yeah, she's fantastic. >> So she's checking the boxes. So the table stakes are set for Google. I know you got to do some basic things to catch up to get in the cloud. But also you have partnerships. Google Next is coming up, The Cube will be there. Red Hat's a partner. Talk about that relationship with Red Hat and partners. So you're very partner-centric with Google Cloud. >> Jonathan: We are. >> And that's important in the enterprise, but so what-- >> Well, there tends to be two main ares that we focus on, from what we consider the right way to do cloud. One of them is open source. So having, which again, aligns perfectly with Red Hat, is putting the technologies that we want customers to use and that we think customers should use in open source. Kubernetes is an example, there's Istio and others that we've put out that are examples of those. A lot of the open source projects that we all take for granted today were started from white papers that we had put out at one point in time, explaining how we did those things. Red Hat, from a partner perspective, I think that that follows along. We think that the way that customers are going to consume these technologies, certainly enterprise customers are, through those partners that they know and trust. And so having a good, flourishing ecosystem of partners that surround Google Cloud is absolutely key to what we do. >> And they love multicloud too. >> They love multicloud. >> Can't go wrong with it. >> And we do too. The idea is that we want customers to come to Google Cloud and stay there because they want to stay there, because they like us for who we are and for what we offer them, not because they're locked into a specific service or technology. And things like Kubernetes, things like containers, being open sourced allows them to take their tool chains all the way from their laptop to their own cloud inside their own data center to any cloud provider they want. And we think hopefully they'll naturally gravitate towards us over time. >> One of the things I like about the cloud is that there's a flywheel, if you will, of expertise. Like I look at Amazon, for instance. They're getting a lot of metadata of the kinds of workloads that are on their cloud, so they can learn from that and turn that into an advantage for them, or not, or for their customers, and how they could do that. That's their business decision. Google has a lot of flywheel action going on. A lot of Android devices connected in the Google system. You have a lot of services that you can bring to bear in the cloud. How are you guys looking at, say, from a security standpoint alone, that would be a very valuable service to have. I can tap into all the security goodness of Google around what spear phishing is out there, things of that nature. So are you guys thinking like that, in terms of services for customers? How does that play out? >> So where we, we're very consistent on what we consider is, privacy is number one for our customers, whether they're consumer customers or whether they're enterprise customers. Where we would use data, you had mentioned a lot of things, but where we would use some data across customer bases are typically for security things, so where we would see some sort of security impact or an attack or something like that that started to impact many customers. And we would then aggregate that information. It's not really customer information. It's just like you said, metadata, themes, or trends. >> John Furrier: You're not monetizing it. >> Yeah, we're not monetizing it, but we're actually using it to protect customers. But when a customer actually uses Google Cloud, that instance is their hermetically sealed environment. In fact, I think we just came out recently with even the transparency aspects of it, where it's almost like the two key type of access, for if our engineers have to help the customer with a troubleshooting ticket, that ticket actually has to be opened. That kind of unlocks one door. The customer has to say, "Yes," that unlocks the other door. And then they can go in there and help the customer do things to solve whatever the problem is. And each one of those is transparently and permanently logged. And then the customer can, at any point in time, go in and see those things. So we are taking customer privacy from an enterprise perspective-- >> And you guys are also a whole building from Google proper, like it's a completely different campus. So that's important to note. >> It is. And a lot of it just chains on from Google proper itself. If you understood just how crazy and fanatical they are about keeping things inside and secret and proprietary. Not proprietary, but not allowing that customer data out, even on the consumer side, it would give a whole-- >> Well, you got to amplify that, I understand. But what I also see, a good side of that, which is there's a lot of resources you're bringing to bear or learnings. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> The SRE concept, for instance, is to me, really powerful, because Google had to build that out themselves. This is now a paradigm, we're seeing a cloud scale here, with the Cloud Native market bringing in all-new capabilities at scale. Horizontally scalable, fully synchronous, microservices architecture. This future is a complete game-changer on functionality at the different scale points. So there's no longer the operator's room, provisioning storage here. >> And this is what we've been doing for years and years and years. That's how all of Google itself, that's how search and ads and Gmail and everything runs, in containers all orchestrated by Borg, which is our version of Kubernetes. And so we're really just bringing those leanings into the Google Cloud, or learnings into Google Cloud and to our customers. >> Jonathan, machine learning and AI have been the big topic this week on OpenShift. Obviously that's a big strength of Google Cloud as well. Can you drill down on that story, and talk about what Google Cloud is bringing on, and machine learning on OpenShift in general? Give us a little picture of what's running. >> Yeah, so I think they showed some of the service broker stuff. And I think, did they show some of the Kubeflow stuff, which is taking some machine learning and Kubernetes underneath OpenShift. I think those are very, very interesting for people that want to start getting into using AutoML, which is kind of roll-your-own machine learning, or even the voice or vision APIs to enhance their products. And I think that those are going to be keys. Easing the adoption of those, making them really, really easy to consume, is what's going to drive the significant ramp on using those types of technologies. >> One of the key touchpoints here has been the fact that this stuff is real-world and production-ready. The fact that the enterprise architecture now rolling out apps within days or weeks. One of those things that's now real is ML. And even in the opening keynote, they talked about using a little bit of it to optimize the scheduling and what sessions were in which rooms. As you talk to enterprises, it does seem like this stuff is being baked into real enterprise apps today. Can you talk a little bit about that? >> Sure, so I certainly can't give any specific examples, because what I think what you're saying is that a lot of enterprises or a lot of companies are looking at that like, "Oh, this is our new secret sauce." It always used to be like they had some interesting feature before, that a competitor would have to keep up with or catch up with. But I think they're looking at machine learning as a way to enhance that customer experience, so that it's a much more intimate experience. It feels much more tailored to whomever is using their product. And I think that you're seeing a lot of those types of things that people are starting to bake into their products. We've, again, this is one of these things where we've been using machine learning for almost 10 years inside Google. Things like for Gmail, even in the early days, like spam filtering, something just mundane like that. Or we even used it, turned it on in our data centers, 'cause it does a really good job of lowering the PUE, which is the power efficiency in data centers. And those are very mundane things. But we have a lot of experience with that. And we're exposing that through these products. And we're starting to see people, customers gravitate to grab onto those. Instead of having to hard code something that is a one to many kind of thing, I may get it right or I may have to tweak it over time, but I'm still kind of generalizing what the use cases are that my customers want to see, once they turn on machine learning inside their applications, it feels much more tailored to the customer's use cases. >> Machine learning as a service seems to be a big hot button that's coming out. How are you guys looking at the technical direction from the cloud within the enterprise? 'Cause you have three classes of enterprise. You have the early adopters, the power, front, cutting-edge. Then you have the fast followers, then you have everybody else. The everybody else and fast followers, they know about Kubernetes, some might not even, "What is Kubernetes?" So you have kind of-- >> Jonathan: "What containers?" >> A level of progress where people are. How are you guys looking at addressing those three areas, because you could blow them away with TensorFlow as a service. "Whoa, wowee, I'm just trying to get my storage LUNs "moving to a cloud operation system." There's different parts of this journey. Is there a technical direction that addresses these? What are you guys doing? >> So typically we'll work with those customers to help them chart the path through all those things, and making it easy for them to use and consume. Machine learning is still, unless you are a stats major or you're a math major, a lot of the algorithms and understanding linear algebra and things like that are still very complex topics. But then again, so is networking and BGP and things like OSPF back a few years ago. So technology always evolves, and the thing that you can do is you can just help pull people along the continuum there, by making it easy for them to use and to provide a lot of education. And so we work with customers on all ends of the spectrum. Even if it's just like, "How do I modernize my applications, "or how do I even just put them into the cloud?" We have teams that can help do that or can educate on that. If there are customers that are like, "I really want to go do something special "with maybe refactoring my applications. "I really want to get the Cloud Native experience." We help with that. And those customers that say, "I really want to find out this machine learning thing. "How can I actually make that an impactful portion of my company's portfolio?" We can certainly help with that. And there's no one, and typically you'll find in any large enterprise, because there'll be some people on each one of those camps. >> Yeah, and they'll also want to put their toe in the water here and there. The question I have for you guys is you got a lot of goodness going on. You're not trying to match Amazon speed for speed, feature for feature, you guys are picking your shots. That is core to Google, that's clear. Is there a use case or a set of building blocks that are highly adopted with you guys now, in that as Google gets out there and gets some penetration in the enterprise, what's the use, what are the key things you see with successes for you guys, out of the gate? Is there a basic building? Amazon's got EC2 and S3. What are you guys seeing as the core building blocks of Google Cloud, from a product standpoint, that's getting the most traction today? >> So I think we're seeing the same types of building blocks that the other cloud providers are, I think. Some of the differences is we look at security differently, because of, again, where we grew up. We do things like live migration of virtual machines, if you're using virtual machines, because we've had to do that internally. So I think there are some differences on just even some of the basic block and tackling type of things. But I do think that if you look at just moving to the cloud, in and of itself is not enough. That's a stepping stone. We truly believe that artificial intelligence and machine learning, Cloud Native style of applications, containers, things like service meshes, those things that reduce the operational burdens and improve the rate of new feature introduction, as well as the machine learning things, I think that that's what people tend to come to Google for. And we think that that's a lot of what people are going to stay with us for. >> I overheard a quote I want to get your reaction to. I wrote it down, it says, "I need to get away from VPNs and firewalls. "I need user and application layer security "with un-phishable access, otherwise I'm never safe." So this is kind of a user perspective or customer perspective. Also with cloud there's no perimeters, so you got phishing problems. Spear phishing's one big problem. Security, you mentioned that. And then another quote I had was, "Kubernetes is about running frameworks, "and it's about changing the way "applications are going to be built over time." That's where, I think, SRE and Istio is very interesting, and Kubeflow. This is a modern architecture for-- >> There's even KubeVirt out there, where you can run a VM inside a container, which is actually what we do internally too. So there's a lot of different ways to slice and dice. >> Yeah, how relevant is that, those concepts? Because are you hearing that as well on the customers? 'Cause that's pain point, but also the new modern software development's future way to do things. So there's pain point, I need some aspirin for that. And then I need some growth with the new applications being built and hiring talent. Is that consistent with how you guys see it? >> So which one should I tackle? So you're talking about. >> John Furrier: VPN, do the VPNs first. >> The VPNs first, okay. >> John Furrier: That's my favorite one. >> So one of the most, kind of to give you the backstory, so one of the most interesting things when I came to Google, having come from other large enterprise vendors before this, was there's no VPNs. We don't even have it on our laptop. They have this thing called BeyondCorp, which is essentially now productized as the Identity-Aware Proxy. Which is, it actually takes, we trust no one or nothing with anything. It's not the walled garden style of approach of firewall-type VPN security. What we do is, based upon the resource you're going to request access for, and are you on a trusted machine? So on one that corporate has given you? And do you have two-factor authentication that corporate, not only your, so what you have and what you know. And so they take all of those things into awareness. Is this the laptop that's registered to you? Do you have your two-factor authentication? Have you authenticated to it and it's a trusted platform? Boom, then I can gain access to the resources. But they will also look for things like if all of a sudden you were sitting here and I'm in San Francisco, but something from some country in Asia pops up with my credentials on it, they're going to slam the door shut, going, "There's no way that you can be in two places at one time." And so that's what the Identity-Aware Proxy or BeyondCorp does, kind of in a nutshell. And so we use that everywhere, internally, externally. And so that's one of the ways that we do security differently is without VPNs. And that's actually in front of a lot of the GCP technologies today, that you can actually leverage that. So I would say we take-- >> Just rethinking security. >> It's rethinking security, again, based upon a long history. And not only that, but what we use internally, from our corporate perspective. And now to get to the second question, yeah. >> Istio, Kubeflow, is more of the way software gets run. One quote from one of the ex-Googlers who left Google then went out to another company, she goes, she was blown away, "This is the way you people ship software?" Like she was a fish out of water. She was like, "Oh my god, where's Borg?" "We do Waterfall." So there's a new approach that opens doors between these, and people expect. That's this notion of Kubeflow and orchestration. So that's kind of a modern, it requires training and commitment. That's the upside. Fix the aspirin, so Identity Proxy, cool. Future of software development architecture. >> I think one of the strong things that you're going to see in software development is I think the days of people running it differently in development, and then sandbox and testing, QA, and then in prod, are over. They want to basically have that same experience, no matter where they are. They want to not have to do the crossing your fingers if it, remember, now it gets reddited or you got slash-dotted way back in the past and things would collapse. Those days of people being able to put up with those types of issues are over. And so I think that you're going to continue to see the development and the style of microservices, containers, orchestrated by something that can do auto scaling and healing, like Kubernetes. You're going to see them then start to use that base layer to add new capabilities on top, which is where we see Kubeflow, which is like, hey, how can I go put scalable machine learning on top of containers and on top of Kubernetes? And you even see, like I said, you see people saying, "Well, I don't really want to run "two different data planes and do the inception model. "If I can lay down a base layer "of Kubernetes and containers, then I can run "bare metal workloads against the bare metal. "If I need to launch a virtual machine, "I'll just launch that inside the container." And that's what KubeVirt's doing. So we're seeing a lot of this very interesting stuff pop. >> John Furrier: Yeah, creativity. >> Creativity. >> Great, talk about your role in the Office of the CTO. I know we got a couple of minutes left. I want to get out there, what is the role of the CTO? Bryan Stevens, formerly a Red Hat executive. >> Yeah, Bryan's our CTO. He used to run a big chunk of the engineering for Google Cloud, absolutely. >> And so what is the office's charter? You mentioned some CIOs, former CIOs are in there. Is it the think tank? Is it the command and control ivory tower? What's the role of the office? >> So I think a couple of years ago, Diane Greene and Bryan Stevens and other executives decided if we want to really understand what the enterprise needs from us, from a cloud perspective, we really need to have some people that have walked in those shoes, and they can't just be Diane or can't just be Bryan, who also had a big breadth of experience there. But two people can't do that for every customer for every product. And so they instituted the Office of the CTO. They tapped Will Grannis, again, had been in Boeing before, been in the military, and so tapped him to build this thing. And they went and they looked for people that had experience. Former VPs of Engineering, former CIOs. We have people from GE Oil and Gas, we have people from Boeing, we have people from Pixar. You name it, across each of the different verticals. Healthcare, we have those in the Office of the CTO. And about, probably, I think 25 to 30 of us now. I can't remember the exact numbers. And really, what our day to day life is like is working significantly with the product managers and the engineering teams to help facilitate more and more enterprise-focused engineering into the products. And then working with enterprise customers, kind of the big enterprise customers that we want to see successful, and helping drive their success as they consume Google Cloud. So being the conduit, directly into engineering. >> So in market with customers, big, known customers, getting requirements, helping facilitate product management function as well. >> Yeah, and from an engineering perspective. So we actually sit in the engineering organization. >> John Furrier: Making sure you're making the good bets. >> Jonathan: Yes, exactly. >> Great, well thanks for coming on The Cube. Thanks for sharing the insight. >> Jonathan: Thanks for having me again. >> Great to have you on, great insight, again. Google, always great technology, great enterprise mojo going on right now. Of course, The Cube will be at Google Next this July, so we'll be having live coverage from Google Next here in San Francisco at that time. Thanks for coming on, Jonathan. Really appreciate it, looking forward to more coverage. Stay with us for more of day three, as we start to wrap up our live coverage of Red Hat Summit 2018. We'll be back after this short break. (upbeat electronic music)