>> Narrator: TheCUBE presents Ignite '22, brought to you by Palo Alto Networks. >> Greetings from the MGM Grand Hotel in beautiful Las Vegas. It's theCUBE Live Day two of our coverage of Palo Alto Networks, ignite 22. Lisa Martin, Dave Vellante. Dave, what can I say? This has been a great couple of days. The amount of content we have created and shared with our viewers on theCUBE is second to none. >> Well, the cloud has completely changed the way that people think about security. >> Yeah. You know at first it was like, oh, the cloud, how can that be secure? And they realized, wow actually cloud is pretty secure if we do it right. And so shared responsibility model and partnerships are critical. >> Partnerships are critical, especially as more and more organizations are multicloud by default. Right? These days we're going to be bring Google into the conversation. Josh Haslet joins us. Strategic Partnership Manager at Google. Welcome. Great to have you Josh. >> Hi Lisa, thanks for having me here. >> So you are a secret squirrel from Palo Alto Networks. Talk to me a little bit about your background and about your role at Google in terms of partnership management. >> Sure, I feel like we need to add that to my title. [Lisa] You should, secret squirrel. >> Great. Yeah, so as a matter of fact, I've been at Google for two and a half years. Prior to that, I was at Palo Alto Networks. I was managing the business development relationship with Google, and I was kind of at the inception of when the cash came in and, and decided that we needed to think about how to do security in a new way from a platform standpoint, right? And so it was exciting because when I started with the partnership, we were focusing on still securing you know, workloads in the cloud with next generation firewall. And then as we went through acquisitions the Palo Alto added it expanded the capabilities of what we could do from cloud security. And so it was very exciting, you know, to, to make sure that we could onboard with Google Cloud, take a look at how not only Palo Alto was enhancing their solutions as they built those and delivered those from Google Cloud. But then how did we help customers adopt cloud in a more easy fashion by making things, you know more tightly integrated? And so that's really been a lot of what I've been involved in, which has been exciting to see the growth of both organizations as we see customers shifting to cloud transformation. And then how do they deploy these new methodologies and tools from a security perspective to embrace this new way of working and this new way of, you know creating applications and doing digital transformation. >> Important, since work is no longer a place, it's an activity. Organizations have have to be able to cater to the distributed workforce. Of course, the, the, the workforce has to be able to access everything that they need to, but it has to be done in a secure way regardless of what kind of company you are. >> Yeah, you're right, Lisa. It's interesting. I mean, the pandemic has really changed and accelerated that transformation. I think, you know really remote working has started previous to that. And I think Nikesh called that out in the keynote too right? He, he really said that this has been ongoing for a while, but I think, you know organizations had to figure out how to scale and that was something that they weren't as prepared for. And a lot of the technology that was deployed for VPN connectivity or supporting remote work that was fixed hardware. And so cloud deployment and cloud architecture specifically with Prisma access really enabled this transformation to happen in a much faster, you know, manner. And where we've come together is how do we make sure that customers, no matter what device, what user what application you're accessing. As we take a look at ZTNA, Zero Trust Network Access 2.0, how can we come together to partner to make sure the customers have that wide range of coverage and capability? >> How, how do you how would you describe Josh Google's partner strategy generally and specifically, you know, in the world of cyber and what makes it unique and different? >> Yeah, so that's a great question. I think, you know, from Google Cloud perspective we heard TK mention this in the keynote with Nikesh. You know, we focus on on building a secure platform first and foremost, right? We want to be a trusted cloud for customers to deploy on. And so, you know, we find that as customers do one of two things, they're looking at, you know, reducing cost as they move to cloud and consolidate workloads or as they embrace innovation and look at, you know leveraging things like BigQuery for analytics and you know machine learning for the way that they want to innovate and stay ahead of the competition. They have to think about how do they secure in a new way. And so, not only do we work on how do we secure our own platform, we work with trusted partners to make sure that customers have you mentioned it earlier, Dave the shared security model, right? How do they take a look at their applications and their workloads and this new way of working as they go to CI/CD pipelines, they start thinking about DevSecOps. How do they integrate tooling that is frictionless and seamless for their, for their teams to deploy but allows them to quickly embrace that cloud transformation journey. And so, yes, partners are critical to that. The other thing is, you know we find that, you mentioned earlier, Lisa that customers are multicloud, right? That's kind of the the new normal as we look at enterprises today. And so Google Cloud's going to do a great job at securing our platform, but we need partners that can help customers deploy policy that embraces not only the things that they put in Google Cloud but as they're in their transformation journey. How that embraces the estates that are in data centers the things that are still on-prem. And really this is about making sure that the applications no matter where they are, the databases no matter where they are, and the users no matter where they are are all secure in that new framework of deploying and embracing innovation on public cloud. >> One of the things that almost everybody from Palo Alto Networks talks about is their partnering strategy their acquisition strategy integrations. And I was doing some research. There's over 50 joint integrations that Google Cloud and Palo Alto Networks. Have you talked about Zero Trust Network Access 2.0 that was announced yesterday. >> Correct. >> Give us a flavor of what that is and what does it deliver that 1.0 did not? >> Well, great. And what I'd like to do is touch a little bit on those 50 integrations because it's been, you know, a a building rolling thunder, shall we say as far as how have we taken a look at customers embracing the cloud. The first thing was we took a look at at how do we make sure that Palo Alto solutions are easier for customers to deploy and to orchestrate in Google Cloud making their journey to embracing cloud seamless and easy. The second thing was how could we make that deployment and the infrastructure even more easy to adopt by doing first party integrations? So earlier this year we announced cloud IDS intrusion detection system where we actually have first party directly in our console of customers being able to simply select, they want to turn on inspection of the traffic that's running on Google Cloud and it leverages the threat detection capability from Palo Alto Networks. So we've gone from third party integration alone to first party integration. And that really takes us to, you know, the direction of what we're seeing customers need to embrace now which is, this is your Zero Trusts strategy and Zero Trust 2.0 helps customers do a number of things. The first is, you know, we don't want to just verify a user and their access into the environment once. It needs to be continuous inspection, right? Cause their state could change. I think, you know, the, the teams we're talking about some really good ways of addressing, you know for instance, TSA checkpoints, right? And how does that experience look? We need to make sure that we're constantly evaluating that user's access into the environment and then we need to make sure that the content that's being accessed or, you know, loaded into the environment is inspected. So we need continuous content inspection. And that's where our partnership really comes together very well, is not only can we take care of any app any device, any user, and especially as we take a look at you know, embracing contractor like use cases for instance where we have managed devices and unmanaged devices we bring together beyond Corp and Prisma access to take a look at how can we make sure any device, any user any application is secure throughout. And then we've got content inspection of how that ZTNA 2.0 experience looks like. >> Josh, that threat data that you just talked about. >> Yeah. >> Who has access to that? Is it available to any partner, any customer, how... it seems like there's gold in them, NAR hills, so. >> There is. But, this could be gold going both ways. So how, how do you adjudicate and, how do you make sure that first of all that that data's accessible for, for good and not in how do you protect it against, you know, wrong use? >> Well, this is one of the great things about partnering with Palo Alto because technically the the threat intelligence is coming from their ingestion of malware, known threats, and unknown threats right into their technology. Wildfire, for instance, is a tremendous example of this where unit 42 does, you know, analysis on unknown threats based upon what Nikesh said on stage. They've taken their I think he said 27 days to identification and remediation down to less than a minute, right? So they've been able to take the intelligence of what they ingest from all of their existing customers the unknown vulnerabilities that are identified quickly assessing what those look like, and then pushing out information to the rest of their customers so that they can remediate and protect against those threats. So we get this shared intelligence from the way that Palo Alto leverages that capability and we've brought that natively into Google Cloud with cloud intrusion detection. >> So, okay, so I'm, I'm I dunno why I have high frequency trading in my mind cause it used to be, you know, like the norm was, oh it's going to take a year to identify an intrusion. And, and, and now it's down to, you know take was down to 27 days. Now it's down to a minute. Now it's not. That's best practice. And I'm, again, I'm thinking high frequency trading how do I beat the speed of light? And that's kind of where we're headed, right? >> Right. >> And so that's why he said one minute's not enough. We have to keep going. >> That's right. >> So guys got your best people working on that? >> Well, as a matter of fact, so Palo Alto Networks, you know when we take a look at what Nikesh said from stage, he talked about using machine learning and AI to get ahead of what we what they look at as far as predictability not only about behaviors in the environment so things that are not necessarily known threats but things that aren't behaving properly in the environment. And you can start to detect based on that. The second piece of it then is a lot of that technology is built on Google Cloud. So we're leveraging, their leveraging the capabilities that come together with you know, aggregation of, of logs the file stitching across the entire environment from the endpoint through to cloud operations the things that they detect for network content inspection putting all those files together to understand, you know where has the threat vector entered how has it gone lateral inside the environment? And then how do you make sure that you remediate all of those points of intrusion. And so yeah it's been exciting to see how our product teams have worked together to continue to advance the capabilities for speed for customers. >> And secure speed is critical. We had the opportunity this morning to speak with Lee Claridge, the chief product officer, and you know one of the things that I had heard about Lee is that despite all of the challenges in cybersecurity and the amorphous expansion of the threat network and the sophistication of the adversaries he's really optimistic about what it's going to enable organizations to do. I see you smiling. Do you share that optimism? >> I, I do. I think, you know, when you bring, when you bring leaders together to tackle big problems, I think, you know we've got the right teams working on the right things and we understand the problems that the customers are facing. And so, you know, from a a Google cloud perspective we understand that partnering with Palo Alto Networks helps to make sure that that optimism continues. You know, we work on continuous innovation when it comes to Google Cloud security framework, but then partnering with Palo Alto brings additional capabilities to the table. >> Vision for the, for the partnership. Where do you want to see it go? What's... we're two to five years down the road, what's it look like? Maybe two to three years. Let's go. >> Well, it was interesting. I, I think neer was the one that mentioned on stage about, you know how AI is going to start replacing us in our main jobs, right? I I think there's a lot of truth to that. I think as we look forward, we see that our teams are going to continue to help with automation remediation and we're going to have the humans working on things that are more interesting and important. And so that's an exciting place to go because today the reality is that we are understaffed in cybersecurity across the industry and we just can't hire enough people to make sure that we can detect, remediate and secure, you know every user endpoint and environment out there. So it's exciting to see that we've got a capability to move in a direction to where we can make sure that we get ahead of the threat actors. >> Yeah. So he said within five years your SOC will be AI based and and basically he elaborated saying there's a lot of stuff that you're doing today that you're not going to be doing tomorrow. >> That's true. >> And that's going to continue to be a moving target I would think Google is probably ahead in that game and ahead of most, right? I mean, you guys were there early. I mean, I remember when Hadoop was all the rage like just at the beginning you guys like, yeah, you know Google's like, no, no, no, we're not doing Hadoop anymore. That's like old news. So you tended to be, I don't know, at least five maybe seven years ahead of the industry. So I imagine you using a lot of those AI techniques in your own business today. >> Absolutely. I mean, I think you see it in our consumer products, and you certainly see it in the the capabilities we make available to enterprise as far as how they can innovate on our cloud. And we want to make sure that we continue to provide those capabilities, you know not only for the tools that we build but the tools that customers use. >> What's the, as we kind of get towards the end of our conversation here, we we talk about zero trust as, as a journey, as an approach. It's not a product, it's not a tool. What is the, who's involved in the zero trust journey from the customers perspective? Is this solely with the CSO, CSO, CIOs or is this at the CEO level going, we have to be a data company but we have to be a secure data company 24/7. >> It's interesting as you've seen malware, phishing, ransomware attacks. >> Yeah. >> This is not only just a CSO CIO conversation it's a board level conversation. And so, you know the way to address this new way of working where we have very distributed environments where you can't create a perimeter anymore. You need to strategize with zero trust. And so continuously, when we're talking to customers we're hearing that as a main initiative, you know from the CIO's office and from the board level. >> Got it, last question. The upgrade path for existing customers from 1., ZTNA 1.0 to 2.0. How simple is that? >> It's easy. You know, when we take- >> Is there an easy button? >> So here's the great thing [Dave] If you're feeling lucky. [Lisa] Yeah. (group laughs) >> Well, Palo Alto, right? Billing prisma access has really taken what was traditional security that was an on-prem or a data center deployed strategy to cloud-based. And so we've worked with customers like Princeton University who had to quickly transition from in-person learning to distance learning find a way to ramp their staff their faculty and their students. And we were able to, you know Palo Alto deploy it on Google Cloud's, you know network that solution in very quick order and had those, you know, everybody back up and running. So deployment and upgrade path is, is simple when you look at cloud deployed architectures to address zero trusts network. >> That's awesome. Some of those, some of those use cases that came out of the pandemic were mind blowing but also really set the table for other organizations to go, yes, this can be done. And it doesn't have to take forever because frankly where security is concerned, we don't have time. >> That's right. And it's so much faster than traditional architectures where you had to procure hardware. >> Yeah. >> Deploy it, configure it, and then, you know push agents out to all the endpoints and and get your users provisioned. In this case, we're talking about cloud delivered, right? So I've seen, you know, with Palo Alto deploying for customers that run on Google Cloud they've deployed tens of thousands of users in a very short order. You know, we're talking It was, it's not months anymore. It's not weeks anymore. It's days >> Has to be days. Josh, it's been such a pleasure having you on the program. Thank you for stopping by and talking with Dave and me about Google Cloud, Palo Alto Networks in in addition to secret squirrel. I feel like when you were describing your background that you're like the love child of Palo Alto Networks and Google Cloud, you might put that on your cartoon. >> That is a huge compliment. I really appreciate that, Lisa, thank you so much. >> Thanks so much, Josh. [Josh] It's been a pleasure being here with you. [Dave] Thank you >> Oh, likewise. For Josh Haslett and Dave, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in live coverage for emerging and enterprise tech. (upbeat outro music)

(bright upbeat music) >> Well, hi everybody, John Wallace here and welcome to theCUBE, the leader in high-tech coverage. Glad to have you aboard here as we continue our coverage here at re:Invent 2022. We're out at The Venetian in Las Vegas. A lot of energy down on that exhibit floor, I promise you. We're a little bit away from the maddening crowd, but we're here with the Executive Summit sponsored by Accenture. I've got two guests I want to introduce you to. Jason Beyer who is the vice president of Data and Analytics at Bridgestone Americas. Jason, good to see you, sir. >> Hello, John. >> And Josh von Schaumburg, who is the managing director and North America lead for AWS Security at Accenture. Josh, good to see you. >> Thanks for having us. >> Yeah, first off, just quick take on the show. I know you've only been here about a day or so, but just your thoughts about what you're seeing on the floor in terms of energy, enthusiasm and, I think, turnout, right? I'm really impressed by it. We've got a lot of people down there. >> Yeah, I've been certainly impressed, John, with the turnout. But just as you say, the energy of the crowd, the excitement for the new things coming, it seems like it's a really pivotal moment for many organizations, including my own, and really excited to see what's coming over the next couple days. >> Let's jump into Bridgestone then. I kind of kidded you before we started the interview saying, all right, tires and golf balls, that's what I relate to, but you have a full array of consumer products and solution you're offering and your responsibility is managing the data and the analytics and making sure those business lines are as efficient as possible. >> Absolutely, John. So in my role, I have the privilege of being in an enterprise position. So I get to see the vast array of Bridgestone, which it is a large, highly vertically integrated company all the way from raw material sourcing of natural rubber to retail services in the automotive industry. We're at scale across those areas. The exciting thing about the company right now is we're going through this business transformation of becoming, you know, building on that heritage and that great legacy of having high quality high performance, highly focused on safety products to becoming a product and solutions company, and particular a sustainable solutions company. So what that means is we're bringing not only those great products to market, tires, golf balls, hoses, all kinds of rubber, air springs products to market, but thinking about how do we service those after they're in the market, how do we bring solutions to help fleets, vehicle owners, vehicle operators operate those in a sustainable way, in a cost effective way? So those solutions, of course, bring all new sets of data and analytics that come with it, and technology and moving to the cloud to be cloud native. So this new phase for the organization that we refer to as Bridgestone 3.0, and that business strategy is driving our cloud strategy, our technology strategy, and our data strategy and AWS and Accenture are important partners in that. >> Yeah, so we hear a lot about that these days about this transformation, this journey that people are on now. And Josh, when Bridgestone or other clients come to you and they talk about their migrations and what's their footprint going to look like and how do they get there, in the case of Bridgestone when they came to you and said, "All right, this is where we want to go with this. We're going to embark on a significant upgrade of our systems here," how do you lead 'em? How do you get 'em there? >> Yeah, I think there are a couple key cloud transformation value drivers that we've emphasized and that I've seen at Bridgestone in my time there. I mean, number one, just the rapid increase in the pace of innovation that we've seen over the last couple years. And a lot of that is also led by the scalability of all of the cloud native AWS services that we're leveraging, and in particular with the CDP platform. It really started off as a single-use case and really a single-tenant data lake. And then through the strategic vision of Jason and the leadership team, we've been able to expand that to 10 plus tenants and use cases. And a big reason behind that is the scalability of all these AWS services, right? So as we add more and more tenants, all the infrastructure just scales without any manual provisioning any tuning that we need to do. And that allows us to go really from idea, to POC, to production in really a matter of months when traditionally it might take years. >> So- >> If I can build upon that. >> Please do, yeah. >> The CDP, or central data platform, is part of a broader reference architecture that reflects that business strategy. So we looked at it and said, we could have taken a couple of different approaches to recognize the business challenges we're facing. We needed to modernize our core, our ERP, our manufacturing solutions move to smart factory and green factories, our PLM solutions. But at the same time, we're moving quickly. We have a startup mindset in our mobility solutions businesses where we're going to market on our customer and commerce solutions, and we needed to move at a different pace. And so to decouple those, we, in partnership with Accenture and AWS, built out a reference architecture that has a decoupling layer that's built around a data fabric, a data connected layer, integrated data services as well. A key part of that architecture is our central data platform built on AWS. This is a comprehensive data lake architecture using all the modern techniques within AWS to bring data together, to coalesce data, as well as recognize the multiple different modes of consumption, whether that's classic reporting, business intelligence, analytics, machine learning data science, as well as API consumption. And so we're building that out. A year ago it was a concept on a PowerPoint and just show and kind of reflect the innovation and speed. As Josh mentioned, we're up to 10 tenants, we're growing exponentially. There's high demand from the organization to leverage data at scale because of the business transformation that I mentioned and that modernization of the core ecosystem. >> That's crazy fast, right? And all of a sudden, whoa! >> Faster than I expected. >> Almost snap overnight. And you raise an interesting point too. I think when you talk about how there was a segment of your business that you wanted to get in the startup mode, whereas I don't think Bridgestone, I don't think about startup, right? I think in a much more, I wouldn't say traditional, but you've got big systems, right? And so how did you kind of inject your teams with that kind of mindset, right? That, hey, you're going to have to hit the pedal here, right? And I want you to experiment. I want you to innovate. And that might be a little bit against the grain from what they were used to. >> So just over two years ago, we built and started the organization that I have the privilege of leading, our data and analytics organization. And it's a COE. It's a center of expertise in the organization. We partner with specialized teams in product development, marketing, other places to enable data and analytics everywhere. We wanted to be pervasive, it's a team sport. But we really embraced at that moment what we refer to as a dual speed mindset. Speed one, we've got to move at the speed of the business. And that's variable. Based on the different business units and lines of lines of business and functional areas, the core modernization efforts, those are multi-year transformation programs that have multiple phases to them, and we're embedded there building the fundamentals of data governance and data management and reporting operational things. But at the same time, we needed to recognize that speed of those startup businesses where we're taking solutions and service offerings to market, doing quick minimum viable product, put it in a market, try it, learn from it adapt. Sometimes shut it down and take those learnings into the next area as well as joint ventures. We've been much more aggressive in terms of the partnerships in the marketplace, the joint ventures, the minority investments, et cetera, really to give us that edge in how we corner the market on the fleet and mobility solutions of the future. So having that dual speed approach of operating at the speed of the business, we also needed to balance that with speed two, which is building those long term capabilities and fundamentals. And that's where we've been building out those practical examples of having data governance and data management across these areas, building robust governance of how we're thinking about data science and the evolution of data science and that maturity towards machine learning. And so having that dual speed approach, it's a difficult balancing act, but it's served us well, really partnering with our key business stakeholders of where we can engage, what services they need, and where do we need to make smart choices between those two different speeds. >> Yeah, you just hit on something I want to ask Josh about, about how you said sometimes you have to shut things down, right? It's one thing to embark on I guess a new opportunity or explore, right? New avenues. And then to tell your client, "Well, might be some bumps along the way." >> Yeah. >> A lot of times people in Jason's position don't want to hear that. (laughs) It's like, I don't want to hear about bumps. >> Yeah. >> We want this to be, again, working with clients in that respect and understanding that there's going to be a learning curve and that some things might not function the way you want them to, we might have to take a right instead of a left. >> Yeah, and I think the value of AWS is you really can fail fast and try to innovate and try different use cases out. You don't have any enormous upfront capital expenditure to start building all these servers in your data center for all of your use cases. You can spin something up easily based in idea and then fail fast and move on to the next idea. And I also wanted to emphasize I think how critical top-down executive buy-in is for any cloud transformation. And you could hear it, the excitement in Jason's voice. And anytime we've seen a failed cloud transformation, the common theme is typically lack of executive buy-in and leadership and vision. And I think from day one, Bridgestone has had that buy-in from Jason throughout the whole executive team, and I think that's really evident in the success of the CDP platform. >> Absolutely. >> And what's been your experience in that regard then? Because I think that's a great point Josh raised that you might be really excited in your position, but you've got to convince the C-suite. >> Yeah. >> And there are a lot of variables there that have to be considered, that are kind of out of your sandbox, right? So for somebody else to make decisions based on a holistic approach, right? >> I could tell you, John, talking with with peers of mine, I recognize that I've probably had a little bit of privilege in that regard because the leadership at Bridgestone has recognized to move to this product and solutions organization and have sustainable solutions for the future we needed to move to the cloud. We needed to shift that technology forward. We needed to have a more data-driven approach to things. And so the selling of that was not a huge uphill a battle to be honest. It was almost more of a pull from the top, from our global group CEO, from our CEOs in our different regions, including in Bridgestone Americas. They've been pushing that forward, they've been driving it. And as Josh mentioned, that's been a really huge key to our success, is that executive alignment to move at this new pace, at this new frame of innovation, because that's what the market is demanding in the changing landscape of mobility and the movement of vehicles and things on the road. >> So how do you two work together going forward, Ben? Because you're in a great position now. You've had this tremendous acceleration in the past year, right? Talking about this tenfold increase and what the platform's enabled you to do, but as you know, you can't stand still. Right? (laughs) >> Yeah. There's so much excitement, so many use cases in the backlog now, and it's really been a snowball effect. I think one of the use cases I'm most excited about is starting to apply ML, you know, machine learning to the data sets. And I think there's an amazing IoT predictive maintenance use case there for all of the the censored data collected across all of the tires that are sold. There's an immense amount of data and ultimately we can use that data to predict failures and make our roads safer and help save lives >> Right. >> It's hard to not take a long time to explain all the things because there is a lot ahead of us. The demand curve for capabilities and the enabling things that AWS is going to support is just tremendous. As Josh mentioned, the, the AI ML use cases ahead of us, incredibly exciting. The way we're building and co-innovating things around how we make data more accessible in our data marketplace and more advanced data governance and data quality techniques. The use of, you know, creating data hubs and moving our API landscape into this environment as well is going to be incredibly empowering in terms of accessibility of data across our enterprise globally, as well as both for our internal stakeholders and our external stakeholders. So, I'll stop there because there's a lot of things in there. >> We could be here a long time. >> Yes, we could. >> But it is an exciting time and I appreciate that you're both sharing your perspectives on this because you've got a winning formula going and look forward to what's happening. And we'll see you next year right back here on the Executive Summit. >> Absolutely. >> To measure the success in 2023. How about that? >> Sounds good, thank you, Jim. >> Is that a deal? >> Awesome. >> Sounds good. >> Excellent, good deal. You've been watching AWS here at Coverage of Reinvent '22. We are the Executive Summit sponsored by Accenture and you are watching theCUBE, the leader in high tech coverage. 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(gentle music) >> Hi everybody, this is Dave Vellante of TheCUBE. This is day two of Fal.Con 2022, CrowdStrike's big customer event. Over 2000 people here, a hundred sessions, a lot of deep security talk. Amol Kulkarni is here. He's the chief product and engineering officer at CrowdStrike, and we're going to get into it. Amol, thanks for coming to theCUBE. >> Great to be here. >> I enjoyed your keynote today. It was very informative. First of all, how's the show going for you? >> It's going fantastic. I mean, first and foremost, like to be having everyone here in person, after three years, that's just out the world, right? So great to meet and a lot of great conversations across the board with customers, partners. It's been fantastic. >> Yeah, so I want to start with Cloud Native, it's kind of your dogma. This whole, the new acronym is CNAP Cloud Native Application Protection Platform. >> Amol: That's right. >> There's a mouthful. What is that? How does it relate to what you guys are doing? >> Yeah, so CNAP is what Gartner has coined as the term for covering entire cloud security. And they have identified various components in it. The first and foremost is the runtime protection, cloud workload protection, as we call it. Second is posture management. That's CSBM cloud security posture management. Third is CIEM, which we announced today. And then the fourth is shift left, kind of Dev SecOps part of cloud security. And all together Gartner coins that as a solution or a suite, if you will, to cover various aspects of cloud security. >> Okay, so shift left and then shield right. You still got to shield right. Is that where network security comes in? Which is not your main focus, but okay. So now it explains... Gartner is an acronym. Now I get it. But the CIEM announcement cloud infrastructure entitlement management. So you're managing identities. Is that right? Explain that in more detail. >> So, yeah, so I mean, as in the on-premise world, but even more exacerbated in the crowd world you have lots and lots of identities, both human identities and service accounts that are accessing cloud services. And lot of the time the rigor is not there in terms of what permissions those identities are provisioned with. So are they over provisioned? Do they have lots of rights that they should not have? Are they able... Are services able to connect to resources that they should not be able to connect to all of that falls under the entitlement management, the identity entitlement management part. And that's where CIEM comes in. So what we said is, we have a great identity security story for on-premise, right? And now we are applying that to understand identities, the entitlements they have, secrets that are lying around, maybe leaked, or just, available for adversaries to exploit in the cloud security world. So taking all of that into account and giving you... Giving customers a snapshot view of one single view to say; these are the identities, these are their permissions, this is where you can trim them down because these are the dependencies that are present across services. And you see something that's not right from a dependency perspective, you can say, okay, this connection doesn't make sense. There's something malicious going on here. So there's a lot that you can do by having that scope of identities. Be very narrowed down. It's a first step in the zero trust journey for the cloud infrastructure. >> So I have to ask you when you now extend this conversation to the edge, and operations technology. Traditionally the infrastructure has been air gapped by, you know, brute force air gap. Don't worry about it. And maybe hasn't had to worry so much about the hygiene. So now as you... as the business drives and forces essentially digital connect... Digital transformation and connectivity >> Connectivity. Yeah. >> I mean, wow, that's a playground for the hackers. >> You absolutely nailed it. So most of these infrastructure was not designed with security in mind, unfortunately, right? As you said, most of it was air-gapped, disconnected. And now everything is getting to be connected because the updates are being pushed rapidly changes are happening. So, and that really, in some sense has changed the environment in which these devices are operating. The operational technology, industrial control. We had the colonial pipeline breach last year. And, that really opened people's eyes like, Hey, nation state adversaries are going to come after critical infrastructure. And that can... That is going to cause impact directly to the end end users, to the citizens. So we have to protect this infrastructure. And that's why we announced discover for IOT as a new module that looks at and understands all the IOT and industrial control systems assets. >> So that didn't require an architectural change though. Right? That was a capability that you introduced with partners. Right? Am I right about that? You don't have to re-architect anything. It's just... Your architecture fits perfectly into those scenarios. >> Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You actually... While the pace of change is there, architectural change is almost very difficult, because these are very large systems. They are built up over time. It take an industrial control system. The tracing speed is very different from a laptop. So yeah, you can't impose any architectural change. It has to be seamless from what the customers have. >> You were talking, I want to go back to CNAP. You were talking about the protecting the run time. You can do that with an agent. You had said agent... In your keynote. Agentless solutions don't give you runtime security protection. Can you double click on that and just elaborate? >> Yeah, absolutely. So what agentless solutions today are doing they're essentially tapping into APIs from AWS or Azure CloudTrail, for example and looking at misconfigurations. So that is indeed a challenge. So that is one part of the story, but that only gives you a partial view. Let's say that an attacker attacks and uses a existing credential. A legitimate credential to access one of the cloud services. And from there they escalate the privileges and then now start branching off the, the CSP, and the agentless-only solutions will not catch that. Right? So what you need is you, you need this agentless part but you have to couple that with; seeing the activity that's actually happening the living of the land attacks that cannot be caught by the CSP end-piece. So you need a combination of agentless and agent runtime to give that overall protection. >> What's the indicator of attack for a hacker that's living off the land, meaning using your own tools against you. >> That's right. So the indicators of attack are saying accessing services, for example, that are not normally accessed or escalating privileges. So you come in as a normal user, but then suddenly you have admin privileges because you have escalated those privileges, or you are moving laterally very rapidly from one place to another, or spraying across a lot of services in order to do reconnaissance and understand what is out there. So it's almost like looking for what is an abnormal attack path, abnormal behavior compared to what is normal and the good part is cloud. There's a lot that is normal, right? It's fairly constrained. It's not like a end user who is downloading stuff from the internet. And like doing all sorts of things. Cloud services are fairly constrained, so you can profile and you can figure out where there is a drift from the normal. And that's really the indicator of attack. In some sense, from cloud services >> In a previous life I want to change subjects. In a previous life. I spent a lot of time with CIOs. Helping them look at their application portfolio, understanding what to rationalize, what to get rid of, what to invest in, you know, bringing in new projects, cause you know, it's just you never throw a stuff away in IT. >> There is no obsolescence >> Right. So, but they wanted to... Anytime you go through these rationalization exercises change management is everything. And one of the hardest things to do was to map and understand the business impact of all the dependencies across the portfolio. Cause when application A needs this dataset. If you retire it, you're going to... It has ripple effects. And you talked about that in a security context today when you were talking about the asset graph and the threat graphs giving you the ability to understand those dependencies. Can you add some color to that? >> Absolutely. Absolutely. So what we've done with the asset graph; It's a fundamental piece of technology that we've been building now for some time that complements the thread graph. And the asset graph looks at: Assets, identities, applications, and configuration. All of those aspects. And the interconnections between them. So if a user is accessing an application on a server, all those, and in what role, all of that relationship is tied together in the asset graph. So what that does now is, it gives you an ability to say this application connects to this application. And that's the dependency on that port, for example. So you can now build up a dependency map and then the thread graph, what it does, it looks at the continuous activity that's happening. So if you now take the events that are coming into the thread graph and the graphical representation of those, combine it with the asset graph, you get that full dependency map. And now you can start doing that impact analysis that you talked about. Which is... It's an unsolved problem, right? And that's why security as I said in my keynote is most people do not have their security tools enabled to the highest level or they don't have full coverage just because the pace of change is so rapid. They cannot keep up with it. So we want to enable change management, at a rapid pace where businesses and customers can say; we are confident about the change management, about the change we are going to implement. Because we know what the potential impact would be. We can validate, test it in a smaller subset and then roll it out quickly. And that's the journey we are on. Sort of the theme of my talk was to make IT and security friends again. >> Right, you talked about that gap and bringing those two together. You also had a great quote in there; 'The pace of change and securities is insane.' And so this assets graph capability, dependencies and the threat graph, help you manage that accelerating pace of change. Before I forget, I want to ask you about your interview with Girls Who Code. What was that like? Who'd you interview? I unfortunately couldn't see it. I apologize. >> Yeah, fantastic. So, Reshma Saujani she heads Girls Who Code and she first off had a very very powerful talk just from her own own experiences. And essentially, like, what do we need to do to get more women into computer science first, but then within that, into cybersecurity. and what all have they done with Girls Who Code. So very, I mean, we were very touched at the audience was like super into her talk. And then I had a chance to chat with her for a few minutes, ask her a few questions. Just my view was more like, okay. What can we do together? What can CrowdStrike do in our position, in to attract more women? We've done a lot in terms of tailoring our job descriptions to make sure it's more... Remove the biases. Tuning the interview processes to be more welcoming and Reshma gave an example saying; 'Hey, many of these interviews, they start with a baseball discussion.' And I mean, some women may maybe interested in it but may not all maybe. And so is that the right? Is it a gender kind-of affirming or gender neutral kind-of discussion or do you want to have other topics? So a lot of that is about training the interviewers because most of the interviewers are men, unfortunately. That's the mix we have. And it was a great discussion. I mean, just like very practical. She's very much focused on increasing the number of people and increasing the pipeline which is honestly the biggest problem. Because if we have a lot of candidates we would definitely hire them and essentially improve the diversity. And we've done a great job with our intern program, for example, which has helped significantly improve the diversity on our workforce. >> And, but the gap keeps getting bigger in terms of unfulfilled jobs. That leads me to developers as a constituency. Because you guys are building the security cloud. You're on a mission to do that. And to me, if you have a security cloud, it's got to be programmable. You're going to have developers there. You don't... From what I can tell you have a specific developer platform, but it's organic. It's sort of happening out there. What's the strategy around, I mean, the developer today is so critical in terms of implementing a lot of security strategy and putting it into action. They've got to secure the run time. They got to worry about the APIs. They got to secure the PaaS. They got to secure the containers. Right, and so what's your developer strategy. >> Yeah, so within cloud security, enabling developers to implement DevSecOps as a as a philosophy, as a strategy, is critical. And so we, we have a lot of offerings there on the shift-left side, for example, you talked about securing containers. So we have container image assessment where we plug in into the container repositories to check for vulnerabilities and bad configuration in the container images. We then complement that with the runtime side where our agent can protect the container from runtime violations, from breakouts, for example. So it's a combination. It's a full spectrum, right? From the developer building an application, all the way to the end. Second I'd say is, we are a very much an API first company. So all of the things that you can do from a user interface perspective, you can do from APIs what is enable that is a bunch of partners a rich partner ecosystem that is building using those APIs. So the developers within our partners are leveraging those APIs to build very cool applications. And the manifestation of that is CrowdStrike store where essentially we have as Josh mentioned, in his ski-notes, we have a agent cloud architecture that is very rich. And we said, okay, why can't we open that up for partners to enable them to leverage that architecture for their scenarios? So we have a lot of applications that are built on the CrowdStrike store, leveraging our platform, right. Areas that we are not in, for example. >> And here, describe it. Is there a PaaS layer that's purpose-built for CrowdStrike so that developers can build applications? >> That's a great question. So I'll say that we have a beginnings of a PaaS layer. We definitely talked about CrowdStrike store as being passed for cybersecurity but there's a lot more to do. And we are in the process of building up an application platform so that customers can build the applications for their SOC workflow or IT workflow and and Falcon Fusion is a key part of that. So Falcon Fusion is our automation platform built right into the security cloud. And what that enables customers to do is to define... Encode their business process the way they want and leverage the platform the way they want. >> It seems like a logical next step. Because you're going to enable a consistent experience across the board. And fulfill your promise, your brand promise, and the capabilities that you bring. And this ecosystem will explode once you announce that. >> And that's the notion we talk about of being the sales force of security. >> Right, right. Yeah. That's the next step. Amol, thank you so much. I got to run and wrap. We really appreciate you coming on theCUBE. >> Thank you very much. >> Congratulations on your keynote and all the success and great event. >> Appreciate it. Thank you very much for the time and great chatting with you. >> You're very welcome. All right, keep it right there. We'll be back very shortly to wrap up from Fal.Con 2022. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE. (soft electronic music)

(modern music) >> Welcome back, everyone to theCUBE's live coverage here in San Francisco for VMware Explore, formerly VMworld. theCUBE's been here 12 years today, we've been watching the evolution of the user conference. It's been quite a journey to see and, you know, virtualization just explode. We got two great guests here, we're going to break it all down. Ash McCarty, director of Multicloud Product Management Dell Technologies, no stranger to the VMworld, now VMware Explore, and Josh Prewitt, Chief Product Officer at Rackspace Technology. Great to see you guys, thanks for coming on. >> Absolutely. >> Yeah, thanks so much, thanks for having us. >> So, you know, the theme this year is multicloud, but it's really all about vSphere 8's out, you got VxRail, you got containers, you got the magic going on around cloud native, which it really points to the future state of where this is going, which is agile enterprises, infrastructure as code, high performance under the hood, I mean, all the things that you guys have been doing for many, many years and decades and business, but now with VMware putting it all together, it feels like, this year, it's like you got visibility into the value proposition, people have clear line of sight into where the performances are from the hardware software and now Cloud, it's kind of coming together, feels like it's coming together. Let's talk about that and the relationship between you guys, Rackspace and Dell and VMware. >> Perfect. That sounds great. Well, thanks so much for having us. You know, I'll sort of kick that off. We've got a huge lifelong partnership and relationship with Dell and VMware and the technologies that these guys create that we're able to put in front of our customers are really what allows us to go drive those business outcomes. So, yeah, happy to dive into it. >> Yeah, and I think to add to that, we understand that customers have a tremendously complex challenge ahead of them on managing their infrastructure. That's why with VxRail, we have intelligent infrastructure. We want it to simplify the outcomes for customers no matter if they're managing VMware or if they're managing the actual hardware infrastructure underneath it. >> Yeah, one of the things that we always talk about, you know, you read about it on the blogs and the news and the startup world, is "Oh, product-market fit," and, well, it kind of applies here, if you think about what's going on on the product side with the Edge emerging, hybrid cloud on pace with private cloud, and obviously, cloud native is great too if you have native applications in there, but now, putting it all together, you're hearing things like the telco cloud, I hear buzzwords like that, I hear supercloud, which we promoting, which you see in companies becoming cloud themselves, with the CapEx being handled by either public cloud or optimized on premise or hosted hardware. I mean, this is now, this is not all about everything's going to the cloud, this is now cloud operations on premise and in hosting hardware, so I'd love to get your perspective on that because you guys are huge hosting, you've got huge experience there, modernizing all the time. What does the modern era look like for the customer? >> Yeah, yeah, so, I mean, I think it's very clear to everybody that it's a multicloud world, right? I think the main question is, are you multicloud as a strategy, or are you multicloud as a situation? Because everybody's multicloud. That ship has sailed, right? >> Yeah, exactly. >> And so, when I look at the capabilities that we have with the partnership with Dell and the VxRail technologies, you know, life-cycle management that you have to go and perform across your fleet can be extremely difficult, and whenever you take something like the VxRail and you add, you know, you have the hardware and you have the software all fully integrated there, it makes it much easier to do life-cycle management, so for a company like Rackspace, where we have tens of thousands of nodes that we're managing for customers across 29 global data centers, and we're all over the place, the ability to have that strength with Dell's hardware, the VMware platform improve life-cycle management makes it so much easier for us to manage our fleet and be able to deliver those outcomes even faster for customers. >> So assuming that VxRail isn't a virtual railroad that delivers data to Rackspace data centers, if it's not that, what is it, Ash? Give us a little premier on what VxRail is. >> Well, VxRail is the first and only jointly engineered HCI system with VMware, so everything we do with VMware is better. >> So hyperconverged infrastructure. >> Hyperconverged infrastructure. >> What we used to call a server because all the bits are in the box, right? >> All the storage is computed in there. >> Everything's in there. Right. >> Simplifies management. And we built in with the VxRail HCI system software, which is really our secret sauce, we built in to actually add those automation capabilities with VMware, so it allows you to scale out very quickly, scale up very quickly. And one of our big capabilities is our life-cycle management, which is full stack, meaning it life-cycles the entire vSphere stack as well as the hardware infrastructure underneath as one continuously validated state, meaning that customers can focus more on their business outcomes and driving their business forward versus spending time managing their infrastructure. >> And when you talk about customers, it's also the value proposition that's flowing through Rackspace because Rackspace, when you install these systems, how long does it take to spin up to have a VM available for use when you install one of these systems? >> Oh, so you can have the system up and running very quickly. So we automate all the day one deployment, so you can have the system up and running in your labs, in your data centers in 45 minutes, and you can have VMs up in provision very shortly after that. >> So what do you do with that kind of agility? >> Oh my gosh, so we've actually taken that, and we've taken the VxRail platform and we've created what we call Rackspace Services for VMware Cloud, and this is our platform that is based on VxRail, it's based on vCloud Director from VMware, and by having the VxRail is already RackStacked, ready to go for our customers, we're able to sign a customer up today, and then, within a matter of minutes, give them access to a vCloud Director portal where they can go in and spin up a new VM anytime they want, but then, it also integrates into all of those cloud management platforms and tools, right? It integrates into your Terraform, so you've got, you know, your full CI/CD pipeline, and so you have that full end-to-end capability. If you want to go click around on a portal, you can using vCloud Director and using vSphere and all that great stuff. If you want to automate it, you can do that too. And we do it all in the backs of that VxRail hyperconverged infrastructure. >> Talk about the DPU dynamic. We're hearing a lot about DPUs. VxRail, you guys have some HCI-like vibe there with DPUs. How is that impacting performance, can you guys see? 'Cause we're hearing a lot of buzz around the VxRail and the VMware DPUs really making things much faster. >> I mean, it's the thing we talk about most with customers now is their challenges with scaling their infrastructure, and VxRail is going to be the first and only jointly engineered system that will have vSphere 8 with DPUs functionality and will have the full life-cycle management, and what this really empowers customers to do is, as they're growing their environments that they're scaling out their workloads in the data center, they need a way to scale to that next generation of networking and network security, and that's what DPUs allow you to do. They give you that offload and that high performance capability. >> Talk about the... I'd love to get your guys' perspective, while we're just riffing on this real quick sidebar for a second, if VxRail has these capabilities which you guys are promoting it does and some of the things go on in the modern era, the next gen apps are going to look a lot different. We're kind of calling it supercloud, if you will, for lack of a better description. Yeah, multicloud is a state, I agree. It's a situation and a state, but supercloud is really the functionality of what cloud does. So what do you guys see as, maybe it's tea leaves reading now or dots connecting, what are some of those next gen apps? I mean the Edge is there with, "Oh, the Edge is going to explode," and I can see the Edge having new kinds of apps that we've never seen before, whether it's on premise building lights and however they work or IoT changing. What do you guys see as the next gen app/apps coming out that's not looking the same as now, or how are apps today changing for next gen? 'Cause you get more performance at the Edge, you get more action, you get more co-locations in GEOS, so it's clear multicloud multi-presence is happening too, right? So what are you guys seeing? What's this... >> Yeah, I would say two areas that resonate most with customers is customers transitioning to their cloud native journey, so beginning it and using things like Tanzu for Kubernetes Operations, which we fully support and have a white paper out there list for customers, another area is really in the AIML space, so we've been partnering with both VMware and Nvidia to simplify how customers deploy new AIML infrastructure. I mean, it's challenging, complex, a lot of customers are wanting to dive in because it really enables them to better operate and operate on insights and analytics they get from running their business. >> Josh? >> And, you know, I think it really comes down to, whether you want to call it Edge or IoT or, you know, smart things, whatever, right? It all comes down to how we are expected, now, to capture all of the data to create a better user experience, and that's what we're seeing the modern applications being built around, right, is how do you leverage all of the data that's now at your fingertips, whether it's from wearables, machine vision, whatever it may be, and drive that improved user experience. And so that's the apps that we're seeing now, right? You know, of course, you still have all your business apps, all your ERP capabilities that need to exist and all of that great stuff, but at the same time, I also expect that, whenever, you know, now, whenever I'm walking into a store and their machine vision picks me up and they're pinging my phone and pushing me push notifications, I expect to have a better user experience. >> And do a database search on you too, by the way. >> Yeah, exactly, right? >> No search warrants out for 'em, you know, you're good. >> That's exactly it, so, you know, you kind of expect that better user experience and that's where I'm seeing a lot of the new app development. >> Yeah, it's fun, as these cases are intoxicating to think about all the weird coolness around it. The thing that I want to get your thoughts on is, we were just talking on the analyst session earlier in theCUBE, if DevOps is here and won, which we believe it has and infrastructure as code is happening, the cloud native discussion, shifting left CI/CD pipeline, that's DevOps in my mind, that's like cloud native developers, that's like traditional IT in my mind, so that's all part of the coding. DataOps and Security Ops seem to be the most robust areas of conversations where that's the new Ops, right? So, I mean, I made the term up, but new Ops, in terms of the focus, what are you making more efficient? What are you optimizing for? What's your guys reaction to that? Because all the conversations that we talk about is data, security, and then the rest seems to be cool, all good on the developer's side. Yeah, shift left events happening up there, Kubernetes containers, but all the action on the Ops side seems to be data and security. >> Yeah. >> What's your reaction to that? Is that right? >> So personally, I do think that it's right. I think that, you know with great power comes great responsibility, right? And so the clouds have brought that to us, all of your infrastructure as code has brought that to us. We have that great power now, right? But then you start to see, kind of, the pipeline attacks that are starting to become more and more popular. And so how you secure something that is as complex as, you know, a cloud native development pipeline is really hard, it's really challenging, so I do think that it warrants the attention. Then on the data side, I think that that matters because when I talked about those examples of a better user experience, I don't want my better user experience tomorrow, I don't want it 20 minutes from now. I want that real time capability, and so with that comes massive requirements from a compute and hardware perspective, massive requirements from a software perspective, and from, you know, what folks are now calling DataOps perspective >> Data addressability, having the data available to be delivered in real time. >> You know, there there's been a lot of talk, here at the conference, about the disaggregation of, you know, the brainularism, if we're going to make up words, you know, the horsepower that's involved, CPU, DPU, GPU. I'll make up another word. We're familiar with the thermometers used during COVID to measure temperature. Pretend that I've invented a device called a Care-o-meter and I'm pointing at various people's foreheads, who needs to care about DPUs and GPUs and CPUs? You know, John was referencing the idea of security at the Edge, data. Well, wow, we've got GPUs that can do things. Who needs to care about that? Obviously, we care about it. You care about it. You care about it. You're building this stuff, you're deploying this stuff, but at what level in the customer stack do they need to care about it? Are you going in, is RackSpace engaging customers and saying, "Look, here's the value proposition: we understand your mission to be this. We believe we can achieve your mission." How far down in the organization do you go before you get to someone where you have to have the DPU conversation? 'Cause we didn't even define DPU yet here, which is always offensive to me. >> I think I defined it actually. >> Did you define DPU? Good. Thank you John. >> Yeah, yeah. >> But so who should care? Who should really care about that? >> Oh, that's such a complex question, right? Because everybody, Rackspace included >> But a good one. But a good question. >> Oh, it's a great question. >> Thank you. >> Great question. (laughing) >> Everybody, Rackspace included, is talking about selling business outcomes, right? And ultimately, that is what matters. It is what matters, is selling those business outcomes to the customer. And so of course we're dealing with our business buyers who are just looking for, "Hey, improve my KPIs, make this run faster, better, stronger, all of that great stuff," but ultimately you get down to an IT staff, and to the IT staff, these things matter because the IT staff, they all have budgets that they have to hit. The realities start to hit them and they can't just go and spend whatever they want, you know, trying to hit the KPIs of the marketing department or the finance department, right? And so you have your business buyers that do care significantly about buying their outcomes, and so we're having, you know, the business outcomes conversations with them and then, oftentimes, they will come back to us and say, "Okay, but now we need you to talk to this person over in our IT organization. We need you to talk with our CIO, with our VP of infrastructure," whatever that may be, where we really get down to the nuts and bolts and we talk about how, you know, we can stretch the hardware coming from Dell, we can stretch the software coming from VMware, and we can deliver a higher caliber experience, a lower TCO, by taking advantage of some of the new technologies coming out. >> Yeah, so there's a reason why I ask that awesome question, and it's because I can imagine a scenario where, and this speaks to RackSpace's position in the market today and moving forward and what your history has been, people want to know, "Well, why should I work with Rackspace instead of some mega-hyper-monster-cloud?" If part of the answer is: well, it's because, for very specific application environments, like healthcare we talked about earlier, that might be a conversation where you're actually bringing in Dell to have a conversation about how you are specifically optimizing hardware and software to achieve things that otherwise can't be achieved with t-shirt sizes of servers in a hyperscale cloud. I mean, is that part of the Rackspace value proposition moving forward, that you can do things like that with partners like Dell that the other folks aren't going to focus on? >> Absolutely, it is, right? And a lot of the power of Rackspace is that, you know, we're the best-in-class pure play cloud solutions provider, and we can talk to you about your AWS, your Azure, your GCP, all of that great stuff, but we can also talk to you about private cloud solutions that are built on the backs of Dell Technologies, and in this multicloud world, you don't have that one size fits all for every single application. There are some things that run great in a hyperscale provider, and we can help you get there, but just exactly like you said, there are these verticals where you have applications that don't necessarily run all that well or they're not modernized, they haven't been refactored to be able to take advantage of cloud native services. And if all you're going to do is run that on bare metal in VMs, a hosted private cloud is, by far, the best way to do that, right? And Rackspace provides that hosted private cloud on the backs of Dell technology, on the backs of VMware technology, and we can go deliver those custom bespoke solutions to customers. >> So the infrastructure and the hardware still matters, Ash, yes? >> Absolutely, and I think he just highlighted, while what he does with his customers and what's important to his internal organization is being to deliver faster outcomes, better outcomes, give those customers, to meet those KPIs of those customers consuming their infrastructure at Rackspace, so I think, really, what the DPU and the underlying infrastructure enables is all that full stack integration to allow them to quickly scale to the demands of those customers and what they need in their infrastructure. >> Guys, while we got you here, what do you think about this year's VMware Explore, a lot of anticipation around how many people are going to show up and, you know, all kinds of things around the new name and Broadcom. Big attendance here, I mean, I was very surprised about the size of the attendance and the show floor, the ecosystem, this train is not stopping. I mean, this is VMware's third act, no matter what the contextual situation is. What's your observation of the show? Do you agree, or is there anything that you could want to share about for folks who didn't make it, what they missed? >> Yeah, I mean it really highlights, I mean, you've seen the breadth of the show, I know people that aren't here that aren't able to see it are really missing the excitement. So there's a lot of great announcements around multicloud, around all the announcements, around the vSphere 8 with the DPUs, the vSAN Express Storage architecture, ton of new exciting technologies that are really empowering how customers, you know, the future of how customers are going to consume their workloads in their data centers. >> Josh, they're not short on products and stuff. A lot of moving parts. vSphere 8, a bunch of new stuff. And the cloud native stuff's looking pretty good too, off the tee. >> You know, it does feel like a focus on the core, though, in a way. So I don't think there's been a lot of peripheral noise at the show. Sometimes it's, you know, "And we got this, and this, and this, and this." It's vSphere 8, vSAN 8, cloud software, you know, really hammering it home and refining it. >> But you don't think of it as a little bit of a circus act. I mean the general keynote was theatrical, I thought, I mean, I thought they did a good job on that. I think vSphere 8 was buried a little bit, I thought they could have... They checked the box at the beginning. >> That's true, that's true. >> I mean, they mentioned it, but we didn't see the demos. You know? Demos are usually great. But that's my only criticism. >> Well, that's why we supplemented it with the VxRail announcements, right? With our big announcements around vSphere 8 and with the DPUs as well as the vSAN Express Storage architecture being integrated into VxRail, so I think, you know, it's always that ongoing partnership and, you know, doing what's best for our customers, showing them the next generation and how they consume that technology. >> Yeah, you guys got good props on VxRail. We had a great chat about it yesterday. Rackspace, you guys doing good? Quick update on what's happening with you guys. Give a quick plug. What's going on at Rackspace? What's hot? What's going on? Give a quick plug for what the services are and the products you got going on there. >> Yeah, absolutely. So we are that end-to-end cloud provider, right? And so we've got really exciting offers in market, helping customers take advantage of all the hyperscale providers, and then giving them that private cloud experience. We've got everything from single-tenant running in our data centers on the backs of vSphere, vCloud Director, and VxRails, all the way through to, like, multi-tenant burstable capability that runs within our own data centers as well. It's a really exciting time for technology, a really exciting time for Rackspace. >> Congratulations, we've been following your journey for a long time. Dell, you guys do continue to do a great job and end-to-end phenomenal work. The telco thing's a huge opportunity, we didn't even go there. But Ash, thanks. Josh, thanks for coming on. Appreciate it. >> Yeah, thanks so much. Thanks for having us. >> Thank you very much. >> Okay, thanks for watching theCUBE. We're live, day two of three days of wall-to-wall coverage. Two sets here in Moscone West on the ground level, in the lobby, checking out all the action. Stay with us for more coverage after this short break. (modern music)

(upbeat music) >> On June 21st in Cambridge mass at the Sinclair in Harvard Square, Tech Tackles Cancer is back after a COVID hiatus with live band karaoke and some local tech celebrities raising money for a great cause. The Cube is a media sponsor of the event and Josh Epstein, local marketing exec and one of the events organizers is here to tell us more. Josh, good to see you, welcome. >> Good to be here, Dave. >> So tell us about this event. What's going on? What are the logistics? How's that all work? >> Yeah, we're super excited. So as you said, June 21st at the Sinclair in Harvard Square, Sinclair, if you haven't been there is just the great old school rock club. So we'll be there from 6:00 to 10:00. We will have live band karaoke. So the main event and kind of the primary fundraising approach here is that we have some celebrity technology rock gods these featured performers like Chris Lynch who was the founder of Tech Tackles Cancer, who are are raising money from basically now, up until June 21st. Then at the event, their fundraising will culminate with them singing a live song backed by a live band. And the awards will be given out to the most money raised, the best performance and the best stage presence. So it will be a lot of fun. >> So the fundraising format is I sign up to sing do the karaoke with a live band which is a little bit different. And then I raise as much dough as possible. So obviously that's competitive. >> It's competitive, I think that we ask for a minimum of $10,000 targeted for each of the fundraisers but knowing these guys, knowing guys like Chris Lynch, they don't like to lose. So the bet here is that people are going to go out, they're going to hit their network and they are going to look to kind of raise the most money. So we anticipate this to be a great event with a lot of money raised and a lot of fun. >> So we have a graphic from Alex. If you could bring that up of the people who have signed up for this already. We got Steve Duplessie, founder of of ESG, senior analyst. They sold their company to Tech Target, which is awesome. Congratulations to those guys and thank you for stepping up. George Hope, who heads partner sales for HPE, Joe Lemay of Rocketbook Nathan Hall from Pure Storage, system engineering guy and of course, Steiny, Ken Steinhardt from Infinidat. He was at EMC, he's the field CTO now. He's going to be up there singing. So of course, Chris. >> Absolutely, these are just the early entrance here. So we just started really working our networks. And obviously, I'm a Boston tech guy kind of working the storage networks, the networking networks and kind of the other folks that are around. So as we come out of stealth here in April and start really recruiting, we anticipate having probably 10 to 15 of these featured performers, really fundraising performers that we'll sing. And then we're also obviously soliciting broader donations from anyone who wants to come to the event or just give to the cause and the corporate sponsorships as well. >> All right, so you got corporate sponsorships. You can sing, you can donate you can be there just to support it. That's fantastic and the awards, how's that work? >> Yeah, so we're excited. So first off, most money raised wins an award. So we'll have a leaderboard on the website, we'll be able to kind of track who's raised what, at the event, we're going to have some celebrity judges that will be actually voting for their favorites and then have a crowdsource component as well. So we'll introduce what that mechanism is. But as people, either at the events or a watching in streamed live on LinkedIn live, we'll actually vote for their favorite performance as well as their their pick for best stage presence which we know in rock and roll is half the battle. >> Now this cause has raised a bunch of, I think last time, you guys did this, it was probably a quarter million or close to it and you support multiple causes. What causes are you supporting? >> Sure, yeah, actually I think since they founded the event several years ago they raised over $2 million. This year for this format where we're looking, we can really up our game here but this year we're supporting two really great causes that are both focused on pediatric cancer. The first is St. Batrick's that is really committed to raising funds for research to really help stamp out pediatric cancer really. The approach to researching cures and treatments to pediatric cancer is very different from regular adult cancer. So St. Batrick's does a great job of picking those research projects that really target in on those pediatric cancer causes. And then the second is one mission. And one mission really outlooks to help make pediatric cancer patients that are spending time in the hospital, making their time less stressful, less painful, less sad, less boring. And so they do a lot of fundraising and contributions targeting children's hospitals, really around the country for those pediatric cancer floors. >> Josh, amazing cause. Thanks so much for coming onto the Cube and explaining all that. >> Great, thanks David. >> All right, June 21st, go to ttcfund.org, Tech Tackles Cancer fund, ttcffund.org for more information and you can donate. We'll see you there. (soft music)

from the cube studios in palo alto in boston bringing you data driven insights from the cube and etr this is breaking analysis with dave vellante snowflake they love the stock at 400 and hated at 165 that's the nature of the business i guess especially in this crazy cycle over the last two years of lockdowns free money exploding demand and now rising inflation and rates but with the fed providing some clarity on its actions the time has come to really dig into the fundamentals of companies and there's no tech company that's more fun to analyze than snowflake hello and welcome to this week's wikibon cube insights powered by etr in this breaking analysis we look at the action of snowflake stock since its ipo why it's behaved the way it has how some sharp traders are looking at the stock and most importantly what customer demand looks like the stock has really provided some great theater since its ipo i know people who got in at 120 before the open and i know lots of people who kind of held their noses and bought the stock on day one at over 300 a day when it closed at around 240 that first day of trading snowflake hit 164 this week it's all-time low as a public company as my college roommate chip simonton a long time trader told me when great companies trade at all times time lows because of panic it's worth taking a shot he did now of course the stock could go lower there's geopolitical risk and the stock with a 64 billion market cap is expensive for a company that's forecast to do around 2 billion in product revenue this year and remember i don't recommend stocks you shouldn't take my advice and my comments you got to do your own research but i have lots of data and i have opinions and i'm willing to share that with you stocks like snowflake crowdstrike z-scaler octa and companies like this are highly volatile when markets are moving up they're going to move up faster than the mean when they're declining they're going to drop more severely and that's clearly what's happened to snowflake so with a company like this you when you see panic selling you'll also see panic buying sometimes like we we've seen with this name it went from 220 to 320 in a very short period earlier snowflake put in a short-term bottom this week and many traders feel the issue was oversold so they bought okay but not everyone felt this way and you can see this in the headlines snowflake hits low but cloud stocks rise and we're going to come back to that is it a buy don't buy the dip buy the dip and what snowflake investors can learn from microsoft and from the street.com snow stock is sliding on the back of ill-conceived guidance and to that i would say that conservative guidance these days is anything but ill-conceived now let's unpack all this a bit and to do so i reached out to ivana delevska who has been on this program before she's with spear invest a female-led etf that goes deep into understanding supply chains she came on breaking analysis and laid out her thesis to buy the dip on snowflake this is a while ago she told me currently spear still likes snowflake and has doubled its position let me share her analysis she called out two drivers for the downside interest rates you know rising of course in snowflakes guidance which my own publication called weak in that previous chart that i just showed you so let's dig into that a bit snowflake guided for product revenues of 67 year on year which was below buy side expectations but i believe within sell side consensus regardless the guide was nuanced and driven by snowflake's decision to pass along price efficiencies to customers from optimizing processor price performance predominantly from aws's graviton too this is going to hit snowflakes revenue a net of about a hundred million dollars this year but the timing's not precise because it's going to hit 165 million but they're going to make up 65 million in increased demand frank slootman on the earnings call made this very clear he said quote this is not philanthropy this stimulates demand classic slootman the point is spear and other bulls believe that this will result in a gain for snowflake over the medium term and we would agree price goes down roi gets better you throw more projects at snowflakes customers going to buy more snowflake and when that happens and it gives the company an advantage as they continue to build their moat it's a longer term bet on cloud and data which are good bets now some of this could also be competitive pressures there have been you know studies that are out there from competitors attacking snowflakes pricing and price performance and they make comparisons oracle's been pretty aggressive as have others but so far the company's customers continue to consume now at a very fast rate now on on this front what can we learn from microsoft that applies to snowflake that's the headline here from benzinga so the article quoted a wealth manager named josh brown talking about what happened to microsoft after the dot-com bubble burst and how they quadrupled earnings over the next decade and the stock went sideways suggesting the same thing could happen to snowflake now i'd like to make a couple of comments here first at the time microsoft was a 23 billion dollar company and it had a monopoly and was already highly profitable steve ballmer became the ceo of microsoft right after the dot-com bubble burst and he hugged onto windows for dear life and lived off of microsoft's pc software monopoly microsoft became an extremely profitable and remarkably uninteresting caretaker of a pc in on-prem software estate during balmer's tenure so i just don't see the comparison as relevant snowflake you know they're going to make struggle for other reasons but that one didn't really resonate with me what's interesting is this chart it poses the question do cloud and data markets behave differently it's a chart that shows aws growth rates over time and superimposes the revenue in the red in q1 2018 aws generated 5.4 billion dollars in revenue and that was growing at the time at nearly a 50 rate now that rate as you can see decelerated quite significantly as aws grew to a 50 billion dollar run rate company that down below where you see it bottoms now it makes sense right law of large numbers you can't keep growing that fast when you get that big well oops look what happened in 2021 aws's growth rate bottoms in the high 20s and then rockets back up to 40 this past quarter as aws surpasses a 70 billion dollar run rate so you have to ask is cloud different is data different is cloud data different or data cloud different let's put it in the snowflake parlance can cloud because of its consumption model and the speed of innovation and ecosystem depth and breadth enable snowflake to exhibit lots of variability in its growth rates versus a say progressive and somewhat linear decline as the company grows revenue which is what you would expect historically and part of the answer relates to its market size here's a chart we've shared before with some additions it's our version of snowflake's total available market they're tam which snowflake's version that that blue data cloud thing superimposed on the right it shows the various layers of market opportunity that we came up with that that snowflake and others we think have in front of them emerging from the disruption of legacy data lakes and data warehouses to what snowflake refers to as its data cloud we think about the data mesh concept and decentralized data architectures with domain ownership and data product and service builders as consistent with snowflake's data cloud vision where snowflake data stores are nodes they're just simply discoverable nodes on the mesh you could have you know data bricks data lakes you know s3 buckets on that mesh it doesn't matter they can be discovered they can be shared and of course they're governed in a federated model now in snowflake's model it's all inside the snowflake data cloud that's fine then you'll go to the out years it gets a little fuzzy you know from edge locations and ai inference it becomes massive and decision making occurs in real time where machines and machine data take over the world instead of you know clicks and keystrokes sounds out there but it's real and how exactly snowflake plays there at this point is unclear but one thing's for sure there'll be a lot of data and it's going to find its way into snowflake you know snowflake's not a real-time engine it's an analytical system it's moving into the realm of data science and you know we've talked about the need for you know semantic layer between those those two worlds of analytics and data science but expanding the scope further out we think that snowflake is a big role to play in this future and the future is massive okay check you got the big tam now as someone that looks at companies through a fundamentals prism you've got to look obviously at the markets in the tan which we just did but you also want to understand customers and it's not hard to find snowflake customers capital one disney micron alliance sainsbury sonos and hundreds of other companies i've talked to snowflake customers who have also been customers of oracle teradata ibm neteza vertica serious database practitioners and they tell me it's consistent soulflake is different they say it's simpler it's more agile it's less complicated to secure and it's disruptive to their traditional ways of doing data management now of course there are naysayers i've spoken to a number of analysts that feel snowflake is deficient in areas like workload management and course complex joins and it's too specialized in a world where we're seeing the convergence of analytics and transactional workloads our own david floyer believes that what oracle is doing with mysql heatwave is radically disruptive to many of the database architectures and blows away anything out there and he believes that snowflake and the likes of aws are going to have to respond now this the other criticism here is that snowflake is not architected for real-time inference where a lot of that edge activity is is going to happen it's a multi-hundred billion dollar market and so look snowflake has a ton of competition that's the other thing all the major cloud players have very capable and competitive database platforms even though they all partner with snowflake except oracle of course but companies like databricks and have garnered tons of vc other vc funded companies have raised billions of dollars to do this kind of elastic consumption based separate compute from storage stuff so you have to always keep an open mind and be aware of potential blind spots for these companies but to the criticisms i would say look snowflake they got there first and watch their ecosystem it's a real key to its continued success snowflake's not going to go it alone and it's going to use its ecosystem partners to expand its reach and accelerate the network effects and fill those gaps and it will acquire its stock is valuable so it should be doing that just as it did with streamlit a zero revenue company that it bought for 800 million dollars in stock and cash just recently streamlit is an open source python library that gets snowflake further deeper into that data science space that data brick space and look watch what snowflake is doing with snowpark it's an api library for processing data and building data intensive applications we've talked about snowflake essentially being becoming the super cloud and building this sort of path-like layer across clouds rather than trying to do it all themselves it seems snowflake is really staring at the api economy and building its ecosystem to plug those holes so let's come back to the customers here's a chart that shows snowflakes customer spending momentum or net score on the the top line that's the vertical axis and pervasiveness in the data or market share and that bottom brown line snowflake has unprecedented net scores and held them up for many many quarters as you can see here going back you know a couple years all leading to its expanded market penetration and measured as pervasiveness of so-called market share within the etr survey it's not like idc market share it's pervasiveness in the data set now i'll say this i don't see how this is sustainable i've been waiting for this to moderate i wouldn't be surprised to see snowflake come back to earth a little bit i think they'll clearly still be highly elevated based on the data that i've seen but but i could see in in one or more of the etr surveys this year this starting to moderate as they get they get big it's just it has to happen um but i would again expect them to have a high spending velocity score but i think we're going to see snowflake you know maybe porpoise a bit here meaning you know it moderates it comes back up it's just really hard to sustain this piece of momentum and higher train retain and scale without absorbing some some friction and some head woods that's going to slow you down but back to the aws growth example it's entirely possible that we could see a similar dynamic with snowflake that you saw with aws and you kind of see it with salesforce and servicenow very successful large entrenched entrenched companies and it's very possible that snowflake could pull back moderate and then accelerate that growth even though people are concerned about the moderated guidance of 80 percent growth yeah that's that's the new definition of tepid i guess i look i like to look at other some other metrics the one that really called you know my my my attention was the remaining performance obligations this last quarter rpo snowflakes is up to something like 2.6 billion and that is a forward-looking indicator of of future revenues so i want to i'd like to see that growing and it's growing at a fast pace so you're going to see some ups and downs with snowflake i have no doubt but i think things are still looking pretty solid for the company growth companies like snowflake and octa and z scalar those other ones that i mentioned earlier have probably been repriced and refactored by investors while there's always going to be market and of course geopolitical risk especially in these times fundamentals matter you've got huge market well capitalized you got a leadership position great products and strong customer adoption you also have a great team team is something else that we look for we haven't touched on that but i'll leave you with this thought everyone knows about frank slootman mike scarpelli and what they've accomplished in their years of working together that's why the stock you know in ipo was was so overvalued they had seen these guys do it before slootman just documented in all this in his book amp it up which gives great insight into the history of of that though you know that pair and and the teams that they've built the companies that they've built how he thinks about building companies and markets and and how you know total available markets super important but the whole philosophy and culture that that he's building in his management style but you got to wonder right how long is this guy going to keep going what keeps him motivated you know i asked him that one time here's what he said why i mean are you in this for the sport what's the story here uh actually that that's not a bad way of characterizing it i think i am in it uh you know for the sport uh you know the only way to become the best version of yourself is to be uh to be under the gun and uh you know every single day and that's that's certainly uh what we are it sort of has its own rewards building great products building great companies uh you know regardless of you know uh what the spoils may be uh it has its own rewards and i i it's hard for people like us to get off the field and uh you know hang it up so here we are so there you have it he's in it for the sport how great is that he loves building companies and that my opinion that's how frank slootman thinks about success it's not about money money's the byproduct of success as earl nightingale would say success is the progressive realization of a worthy ideal i love that quote building great companies building products that change the world changing people's lives with data and insights creating jobs creating life-altering wealth opportunities not for himself but for thousands of employees and partners i'd say that's a pretty worthy ideal and i hope frank slootman sticks with it for a while okay that's it for today thanks to stephanie chan for the background research she does for breaking analysis alex meyerson on production kristen martin and cheryl knight on social with rob hoff on siliconangle and thanks to ivana delevska of spear invest and my friend chip symington for the angles from the money side of things remember all these episodes are available as podcasts just search breaking analysis podcast i publish weekly on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com and don't forget to check out etr.plus for all the survey data you can reach me at devolante or david.velante siliconangle.com and this is dave vellante for cube insights powered by etrbsafe stay well and we'll see you next time [Music] you

(bright upbeat music) >> Welcome to The Cube. We're here for the AWS Executive Summit part of Reinvent 2021. I'm John Farrow, your host of the Cube. We've got a great segment focus here, Art of the Possible is the segment. Jas Bains, Chief Executive at Hafod and Jamie Smith, director of research and innovation and Laetitia Cailleteau who's the global lead of conversational AI at Accenture. Thanks for joining me today for this Art of the Possible segment. >> Thank you. >> So tell us a little bit about Hafod and what you guys are doing to the community 'cause this is a really compelling story of how technology in home care is kind of changing the game and putting a stake in the ground. >> Yeah, so Hafod is one of the largest not for profits in Wales. We employ about 1400 colleagues. We have three strands a service, which practices on key demographics. So people who are vulnerable and socioeconomically disadvantaged. Our three core strands of service are affordable housing, we provide several thousand homes to people in housing need across Wales. We also are an extensive provider of social provision, both residential and in the community. And then we have a third tier, which is a hybrid in between. So that supports people who are not quite ready for independent living but neither are they ready for residential care. So that's a supportive provision. I suppose what one of the things that marks Hafod out and why we're here in this conversation is that we're uniquely placed as one of the organizations that actually has a research and innovation capacity. And it's the work of the research and innovation capacity led by Jamie that brought about this collaboration with Accenture which is great in great meaning and benefits. So thousands of our customers and hopefully universal application as it develops. >> You know this is a really an interesting discussion because multiple levels, one, the pandemic accelerated this needs so, I want to get comments on that. But two, if you look at the future of work and work and home life, you seeing the convergence of where people live. And I think this idea of having this independent home and the ecosystem around it, there's a societal impact as well. So what brought this opportunity together? How did this come together with Accenture and AWS? >> We're going for Jamie and Laetitia. >> Yeah, I can start. Well, we were trying to apply for the LC Aging Grand Challenge in the U.K., so the United Kingdom recognized the need for change around independent living and run a grand challenge. And then we got together as part of this grand challenge. You know, we had some technology, we had trialed with AGK before and Hanover Housing Association. Hafod was really keen to actually start trying some of that technology with some of the resident. And we also worked with Swansea University, was doing a lot of work around social isolation and loneliness. And we came together to kind of pitch for the grand challenge. And we went quite far actually, unfortunately we didn't win but we have built such a great collaboration that we couldn't really let it be, you know, not going any further. And we decided to continue to invest in this idea. And now we here, probably 18 months on with a number of people, Hafod using the technology and a number of feedbacks and returns coming back and us having a grand ambitions to actually go much broader and scale this solution. >> Jas and Jamie, I'd love to get your reaction and commentary on this trend of tech for good because I mean, I'm sure you didn't wake up, oh, just want to do some tech for good. You guys have an environment, you have an opportunity, you have challenges you're going to turn into opportunities. But if you look at the global landscape right now, things that are jumping out at us are looking at the impact of social media on people. You got the pandemic with isolation, this is a first order problem in this new world of how do we get technology to change how people feel and make them better in their lives. >> Yeah, I think for us, the first has to be a problem to solve. There's got to be a question to be answered. And for us, that was in this instance, how do we mitigate loneliness and how do we take services that rely on person to person contact and not particularly scalable and replicate those through technology somehow. And even if we can do 10% of the job of that in-person service then for us, it's worth it because that is scalable. And there are lots of small interventions we can make using technology which is really efficient way for us to support people in the community when we just can't be everywhere at once. >> So, John, just to add, I think that we have about 1500 people living in households that are living alone and isolated. And I think the issue for us was more than just about technology because a lot of these people don't have access to basic technology features that most of us would take for granted. So far this is a two-prong journey. One is about increasing the accessibility to tech and familiarizing people so that they're comfortable with these devices technology and two importantly, make sure that we have the right means to help people reduce their loneliness and isolation. So the opportunity to try out something over the last 12 months, something that's bespoke, that's customized that will undoubtedly be tweaked as we go forward has been an absolutely marvelous opportunity. And for us, the collaboration with Accenture has been absolutely key. I think what we've seen during COVID is cross-fertilization. We've seen multi-disciplinary teams, we've got engineers, architects, manufacturers, and clinicians, and scientists, all trying to develop new solutions around COVID. And I think this probably just exemplary bias, especially as a post COVID where industry and in our case for example public sector and academia working together. >> Yeah, that's a great example and props to everyone there. And congratulations on this really, really important initiative. Let's talk about the home care solution. What does it do? How does it work? Take us through what's happening? >> Okay, so Home Care is actually a platform which is obviously running on AWS technology and this particular platform is the service offered accessible via voice through the Alexa device. We use the Echo Show to be able to use voice but also visuals to kind of make the technology more accessible for end user. On the platform itself, we have a series of services available out there. We connecting in the background a number of services from the community. So in the particular case of Hafod, we had something around shopping during the pandemic where we had people wanting to have access to their food bank. Or we also had during the pandemic, there was some need for having access to financial coaching and things like that. So we actually brought all of the service on the platform and the skills and this skill was really learning how to interact with the end user. And it was all customized for them to be able to access those things in a very easy way. It did work almost too well because some of our end users have been a kind of you know, have not been digital literate before and it was working so well, they were like, "But why can't it do pretty much anything on the planet? "Why can't it do this or that?" So the expectations were really, really high but we did manage to bring comfort to Hafod residents in a number of their daily kind of a need, some of the things during COVID 'cause people couldn't meet face to face. There was some challenge around understanding what events are running. So the coaches would publish events, you know, through the skills and people would be able to subscribe and go to the event and meet together virtually instead of physically. The number of things that really kind of brought a voice enabled experience for those end users. >> You know, you mentioned the people like the solution just before we, I'm going to get the Jamie in a second, but I want to just bring up something that you brought up. This is a digital divide evolution because digital divide, as Josh was saying, is that none about technology,, first, you have to access, you need access, right? First, then you have to bring broadband and internet access. And then you have to get the technology in the home. But then here it seems to be a whole nother level of digital divide bridging to the new heights. >> Yeah, completely, completely. And I think that's where COVID has really accelerated the digital divide before the solution was put in place for Hafod in the sense that people couldn't move and if they were not digitally literate, it was very hard to have access to services. And now we brought this solution in the comfort of their own home and they have the access to the services that they wouldn't have had otherwise on their own. So it's definitely helping, yeah. >> It's just another example of people refactoring their lives or businesses with technology. Jamie, what's your take on the innovation here and the technical aspects of the home care solutions? >> I think the fact that it's so easy to use, it's personalized, it's a digital companion for the home. It overcomes that digital divide that we talked about, which is really important. If you've got a voice you can use home care and you can interact with it in this really simple way. And what I love about it is the fact that it was based on what our customers told us they were finding difficult during this time, during the early lockdowns of the pandemic. There was 1500 so people Jas talked about who were living alone and at risk of loneliness. Now we spoke to a good number of those through a series of welfare calls and we found out exactly what it is they found challenging. >> What were some of the things that they were finding challenging? >> So tracking how they feel on a day-to-day basis. What's my mood like, what's my wellbeing like, and knowing how that changes over time. Just keeping the fridge in the pantry stocked up. What can I cook with these basic ingredients that I've got in my home? You could be signposted to basic resources to help you with that. Staying connected to the people who are really important to you but the bit that shines out for me is the interface with our services, with our neighborhood coaching service, where we can just give these little nudges, these little interventions just to mitigate and take the edge of that loneliness for people. We can see the potential of that coming up to the pandemic, where you can really encourage people to interact with one another, to be physically active and do all of those things that sort of mitigate against loneliness. >> Let me ask you a question 'cause I think a very important point. The timing of the signaling of data is super important. Could you comment on the relevance of having access to data? If you're getting something connected, when you're connected like this, I can only imagine the benefits. It's all about timing, right? Knowing that someone might be thinking some way or whether it's a tactical, in any scenario, timing of data, the right place at the right time, as they say. What's your take on that 'cause it sounds like what you're saying is that you can see things early when people are in the moment. >> Yeah, exactly. So if there's a trend beginning to emerge, for example, around some of these wellbeing, which has been on a low trajectory for a number of days, that can raise a red flag in our system and it alerts one of our neighborhood coaches just to reach out to that person and say, "Well, John, what's going on? "You haven't been out for a walk for a few days. "We know you like to walk, what's happening?" And these early warning signs are really important when we think of the long-term effects of loneliness and how getting upstream of those, preventing it reaching a point where it moves from being a problem into being a crisis. And the earlier we can detect that the more chance we've got of these negative long-term outcomes being mitigated. >> You know, one of the things we see in the cloud business is kind of separate track but it kind of relates to the real world here that you're doing, is automation and AI and machine learning bringing in a lot of value if applied properly. So how are you guys seeing, I can almost imagine that patterns are coming in, right? Do you see patterns in the data? How does AI and analytics technology improve this process especially with the wellbeing and emotional wellbeing of the elderly? >> I think one of the things we've learned through the pilot study we've done is there's not one size fits all. You know, all those people are very different individuals. They have very different habits. You know, there's some people not sleeping over the night. There's some people wanting to be out early, wanting to be social. Some people you have to put in much more. So it's definitely not one size fits all. And automation and digitalization of those kinds of services is really challenging because if they're not personalized, it doesn't really catch the interest or the need of the individuals. So for me as an IT professional being in the industry for like a 20 plus years, I think this is the time where personalization has really a true meaning. Personalization at scale for those people that are not digitally literate. But also in more vulnerable settings 'cause there's just so many different angles that can make them vulnerable. Maybe it's the body, maybe it's the economy position, their social condition, there's so many variation of all of that. So I think this is one of the use case that has to be powered by technology to complement the human side of it. If we really want to start scaling the services we provide to people in general, meaning obviously, in all the Western country now we all growing old, it's no secret. So in 20 years time the majority of everybody will be old and we obviously need people to take care of us. And at the moment we don't have that population to take care of us coming up. So really to crack on those kinds of challenges, we really need to have technology powering and just helping the human side to make it more efficient, connected than human. >> It's interesting. I just did a story where you have these bots that look at the facial recognition via cameras and can detect either in hospitals and or in care patients, how they feel. So you see where this is going. Jas I got to ask you how all this changes, the home care model and how Hafod works. Your workforce, the career's culture, the consortium you guys are bringing to the table, partners, you know this is an ecosystem now, it's a system. >> Yes John, I think that probably, it's also worth talking a little bit about the pressures on state governments around public health issues which are coming to the fore. And clearly we need to develop alternative ways that we engage with mass audiences and technology is going to be absolutely key. One of the challenges I still think that we've not resolved in the U.K. level, this is probably a global issue, is about data protection. When we're talking to cross governmental agencies, it's about sharing data and establishing protocols and we've enjoyed a few challenging conversations with colleagues around data protection. So I think those need to be set out in the context of the journey of this particular project. I think that what's interesting around COVID is that, hasn't materially changed the nature in which we do things, probably not in our focus and our work remains the same. But what we're seeing is very clear evidence of the ways, I mean, who would have thought that 12 months ago, the majority of our workforce would be working from home? So rapid mobilization to ensure that people can use, set IT home effectively. And then how does that relationship impact with people in the communities we're serving? Some of whom have got access to technology, others who haven't. So that's been, I think the biggest change, and that is a fundamental change in the design and delivery of future services that organizations like us will be providing. So I would say that overall, some things remain the same by and large but technology is having an absolutely profound change in the way that our engagement with customers will go forward. >> Well, you guys are in the front end of some massive innovation here with this, are they possible and that, you're really delivering impact. And I think this is an example of that. And you brought up the data challenges, this is something that you guys call privacy by design. This is a cutting edge issue here because there are benefits around managing privacy properly. And I think here, your solution clearly has value, right? And no one can debate that, but as these little blockers get in the way, what's your reaction to that? 'Cause this certainly is something that has to be solved. I mean, it's a problem. >> Yeah, so we designed a solution, I think we had, when we design, I co-designed with your end-users actually. We had up to 14 lawyers working with us at one point in time looking at different kinds of angles. So definitely really tackle the solution with privacy by design in mind and with end users but obviously you can't co-design with thousands of people, you have to co-design with a representative subset of a cohort. And some of the challenge we find is obviously, the media have done a lot of scaremongering around technology, AI and all of that kind of things, especially for people that are not necessarily digitally literate, people that are just not in it. And when we go and deploy the solution, people are a little bit worried. When we make them, we obviously explain to them what's going to happen if they're happy, if they want to consent and all that kind of things. But the people are scared, they're just jumping on a technology on top of it we're asking them some questions around consent. So I think it's just that the solution is super secured and we've gone over millions of hoops within Accenture but also with Hafod itself. You know, it's more that like the type of user we deploying the solution to are just not in that world and then they are little bit worried about sharing. Not only they're worried about sharing with us but you know, in home care, there there's an option as well to share some of that data with your family. And there we also see people are kind of okay to share with us but they don't want to share with their family 'cause they don't want to have too much information kind of going potentially worrying or bothering some of their family member. So there is definitely a huge education kind of angle to embracing the technology. Not only when you create the solution but when you actually deploy it with users. >> It's a fabulous project, I am so excited by this story. It's a great story, has all the elements; technology, innovation, cidal impact, data privacy, social interactions, whether it's with family members and others, internal, external. In teams themselves. You guys doing some amazing work, thank you for sharing. It's a great project, we'll keep track of it. My final question for you guys is what comes next for the home care after the trial? What are Hafod's plans and hopes for the future? >> Maybe if I just give an overview and then invite Jamie and Laetitia. So for us, without conversations, you don't create possibilities and this really is a reflection of the culture that we try to engender. So my ask of my team is to remain curious, is to continue to explore opportunities because it's home care up to today, it could be something else tomorrow. We also recognize that we live in a world of collaboration. We need more cross industrial partnerships. We love to explore more things that Accenture, Amazon, others as well. So that's principally what I will be doing is ensuring that the culture invites us and then I hand over to the clever people like Jamie and Laetitia to get on with the technology. I think for me we've already learned an awful lot about home care and there's clearly a lot more we can learn. We'd love to build on this initial small-scale trial and see how home care could work at a bigger scale. So how would it work with thousands of users? How do we scale it up from a cohort of 50 to a cohort of 5,000? How does it work when we bring different kinds of organizations into that mix? So what if, for example, we could integrate it into health care? So a variety of services can have a holistic view of an individual and interact with one another, to put that person on the right pathway and maybe keep them out of the health and care system for longer, actually reducing the costs to the system in the long run and improving that person's outcomes. That kind of evidence speaks to decision-makers and political partners and I think that's the kind of evidence we need to build. >> Yeah, financial impact is there, it's brutal. It's a great financial impact for the system. Efficiency, better care, everything. >> Yeah and we are 100% on board for whatever comes next. >> Laetitia-- >> What about you Laetitia? >> Great program you got there. A amazing story, thank you for sharing. Congratulations on this awesome project. So much to unpack here. I think this is the future. I mean, I think this is a case study of represents all the moving parts that need to be worked on, so congratulations. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> We are the Art of the Possible here inside the Cube, part of AWS Reinvent Executive Summit, I'm John Furrier, your host, thanks for watching. (bright upbeat music)

(bright upbeat music) >> Welcome to The Cube. We're here for the AWS Executive Summit part of Reinvent 2021. I'm John Farrow, your host of the Cube. We've got a great segment focus here, Art of the Possible is the segment. Jas Bains, Chief Executive at Hafod and Jamie Smith, director of research and innovation and Laetitia Cailleteau who's the global lead of conversational AI at Accenture. Thanks for joining me today for this Art of the Possible segment. >> Thank you. >> So tell us a little bit about Hafod and what you guys are doing to the community 'cause this is a really compelling story of how technology in home care is kind of changing the game and putting a stake in the ground. >> Yeah, so Hafod is one of the largest not for profits in Wales. We employ about 1400 colleagues. We have three strands a service, which practices on key demographics. So people who are vulnerable and socioeconomically disadvantaged. Our three core strands of service are affordable housing, we provide several thousand homes to people in housing need across Wales. We also are an extensive provider of social provision, both residential and in the community. And then we have a third tier, which is a hybrid in between. So that supports people who are not quite ready for independent living but neither are they ready for residential care. So that's a supportive provision. I suppose what one of the things that marks Hafod out and why we're here in this conversation is that we're uniquely placed as one of the organizations that actually has a research and innovation capacity. And it's the work of the research and innovation capacity led by Jamie that brought about this collaboration with Accenture which is great in great meaning and benefits. So thousands of our customers and hopefully universal application as it develops. >> You know this is a really an interesting discussion because multiple levels, one, the pandemic accelerated this needs so, I want to get comments on that. But two, if you look at the future of work and work and home life, you seeing the convergence of where people live. And I think this idea of having this independent home and the ecosystem around it, there's a societal impact as well. So what brought this opportunity together? How did this come together with Accenture and AWS? >> We're going for Jamie and Laetitia. >> Yeah, I can start. Well, we were trying to apply for the LC Aging Grand Challenge in the U.K., so the United Kingdom recognized the need for change around independent living and run a grand challenge. And then we got together as part of this grand challenge. You know, we had some technology, we had trialed with AGK before and Hanover Housing Association. Hafod was really keen to actually start trying some of that technology with some of the resident. And we also worked with Swansea University, was doing a lot of work around social isolation and loneliness. And we came together to kind of pitch for the grand challenge. And we went quite far actually, unfortunately we didn't win but we have built such a great collaboration that we couldn't really let it be, you know, not going any further. And we decided to continue to invest in this idea. And now we here, probably 18 months on with a number of people, Hafod using the technology and a number of feedbacks and returns coming back and us having a grand ambitions to actually go much broader and scale this solution. >> Jas and Jamie, I'd love to get your reaction and commentary on this trend of tech for good because I mean, I'm sure you didn't wake up, oh, just want to do some tech for good. You guys have an environment, you have an opportunity, you have challenges you're going to turn into opportunities. But if you look at the global landscape right now, things that are jumping out at us are looking at the impact of social media on people. You got the pandemic with isolation, this is a first order problem in this new world of how do we get technology to change how people feel and make them better in their lives. >> Yeah, I think for us, the first has to be a problem to solve. There's got to be a question to be answered. And for us, that was in this instance, how do we mitigate loneliness and how do we take services that rely on person to person contact and not particularly scalable and replicate those through technology somehow. And even if we can do 10% of the job of that in-person service then for us, it's worth it because that is scalable. And there are lots of small interventions we can make using technology which is really efficient way for us to support people in the community when we just can't be everywhere at once. >> So, John, just to add, I think that we have about 1500 people living in households that are living alone and isolated. And I think the issue for us was more than just about technology because a lot of these people don't have access to basic technology features that most of us would take for granted. So far this is a two-prong journey. One is about increasing the accessibility to tech and familiarizing people so that they're comfortable with these devices technology and two importantly, make sure that we have the right means to help people reduce their loneliness and isolation. So the opportunity to try out something over the last 12 months, something that's bespoke, that's customized that will undoubtedly be tweaked as we go forward has been an absolutely marvelous opportunity. And for us, the collaboration with Accenture has been absolutely key. I think what we've seen during COVID is cross-fertilization. We've seen multi-disciplinary teams, we've got engineers, architects, manufacturers, and clinicians, and scientists, all trying to develop new solutions around COVID. And I think this probably just exemplary bias, especially as a post COVID where industry and in our case for example public sector and academia working together. >> Yeah, that's a great example and props to everyone there. And congratulations on this really, really important initiative. Let's talk about the home care solution. What does it do? How does it work? Take us through what's happening? >> Okay, so Home Care is actually a platform which is obviously running on AWS technology and this particular platform is the service offered accessible via voice through the Alexa device. We use the Echo Show to be able to use voice but also visuals to kind of make the technology more accessible for end user. On the platform itself, we have a series of services available out there. We connecting in the background a number of services from the community. So in the particular case of Hafod, we had something around shopping during the pandemic where we had people wanting to have access to their food bank. Or we also had during the pandemic, there was some need for having access to financial coaching and things like that. So we actually brought all of the service on the platform and the skills and this skill was really learning how to interact with the end user. And it was all customized for them to be able to access those things in a very easy way. It did work almost too well because some of our end users have been a kind of you know, have not been digital literate before and it was working so well, they were like, "But why can't it do pretty much anything on the planet? "Why can't it do this or that?" So the expectations were really, really high but we did manage to bring comfort to Hafod residents in a number of their daily kind of a need, some of the things during COVID 'cause people couldn't meet face to face. There was some challenge around understanding what events are running. So the coaches would publish events, you know, through the skills and people would be able to subscribe and go to the event and meet together virtually instead of physically. The number of things that really kind of brought a voice enabled experience for those end users. >> You know, you mentioned the people like the solution just before we, I'm going to get the Jamie in a second, but I want to just bring up something that you brought up. This is a digital divide evolution because digital divide, as Josh was saying, is that none about technology,, first, you have to access, you need access, right? First, then you have to bring broadband and internet access. And then you have to get the technology in the home. But then here it seems to be a whole nother level of digital divide bridging to the new heights. >> Yeah, completely, completely. And I think that's where COVID has really accelerated the digital divide before the solution was put in place for Hafod in the sense that people couldn't move and if they were not digitally literate, it was very hard to have access to services. And now we brought this solution in the comfort of their own home and they have the access to the services that they wouldn't have had otherwise on their own. So it's definitely helping, yeah. >> It's just another example of people refactoring their lives or businesses with technology. Jamie, what's your take on the innovation here and the technical aspects of the home care solutions? >> I think the fact that it's so easy to use, it's personalized, it's a digital companion for the home. It overcomes that digital divide that we talked about, which is really important. If you've got a voice you can use home care and you can interact with it in this really simple way. And what I love about it is the fact that it was based on what our customers told us they were finding difficult during this time, during the early lockdowns of the pandemic. There was 1500 so people Jas talked about who were living alone and at risk of loneliness. Now we spoke to a good number of those through a series of welfare calls and we found out exactly what it is they found challenging. >> What were some of the things that they were finding challenging? >> So tracking how they feel on a day-to-day basis. What's my mood like, what's my wellbeing like, and knowing how that changes over time. Just keeping the fridge in the pantry stocked up. What can I cook with these basic ingredients that I've got in my home? You could be signposted to basic resources to help you with that. Staying connected to the people who are really important to you but the bit that shines out for me is the interface with our services, with our neighborhood coaching service, where we can just give these little nudges, these little interventions just to mitigate and take the edge of that loneliness for people. We can see the potential of that coming up to the pandemic, where you can really encourage people to interact with one another, to be physically active and do all of those things that sort of mitigate against loneliness. >> Let me ask you a question 'cause I think a very important point. The timing of the signaling of data is super important. Could you comment on the relevance of having access to data? If you're getting something connected, when you're connected like this, I can only imagine the benefits. It's all about timing, right? Knowing that someone might be thinking some way or whether it's a tactical, in any scenario, timing of data, the right place at the right time, as they say. What's your take on that 'cause it sounds like what you're saying is that you can see things early when people are in the moment. >> Yeah, exactly. So if there's a trend beginning to emerge, for example, around some of these wellbeing, which has been on a low trajectory for a number of days, that can raise a red flag in our system and it alerts one of our neighborhood coaches just to reach out to that person and say, "Well, John, what's going on? "You haven't been out for a walk for a few days. "We know you like to walk, what's happening?" And these early warning signs are really important when we think of the long-term effects of loneliness and how getting upstream of those, preventing it reaching a point where it moves from being a problem into being a crisis. And the earlier we can detect that the more chance we've got of these negative long-term outcomes being mitigated. >> You know, one of the things we see in the cloud business is kind of separate track but it kind of relates to the real world here that you're doing, is automation and AI and machine learning bringing in a lot of value if applied properly. So how are you guys seeing, I can almost imagine that patterns are coming in, right? Do you see patterns in the data? How does AI and analytics technology improve this process especially with the wellbeing and emotional wellbeing of the elderly? >> I think one of the things we've learned through the pilot study we've done is there's not one size fits all. You know, all those people are very different individuals. They have very different habits. You know, there's some people not sleeping over the night. There's some people wanting to be out early, wanting to be social. Some people you have to put in much more. So it's definitely not one size fits all. And automation and digitalization of those kinds of services is really challenging because if they're not personalized, it doesn't really catch the interest or the need of the individuals. So for me as an IT professional being in the industry for like a 20 plus years, I think this is the time where personalization has really a true meaning. Personalization at scale for those people that are not digitally literate. But also in more vulnerable settings 'cause there's just so many different angles that can make them vulnerable. Maybe it's the body, maybe it's the economy position, their social condition, there's so many variation of all of that. So I think this is one of the use case that has to be powered by technology to complement the human side of it. If we really want to start scaling the services we provide to people in general, meaning obviously, in all the Western country now we all growing old, it's no secret. So in 20 years time the majority of everybody will be old and we obviously need people to take care of us. And at the moment we don't have that population to take care of us coming up. So really to crack on those kinds of challenges, we really need to have technology powering and just helping the human side to make it more efficient, connected than human. >> It's interesting. I just did a story where you have these bots that look at the facial recognition via cameras and can detect either in hospitals and or in care patients, how they feel. So you see where this is going. Jas I got to ask you how all this changes, the home care model and how Hafod works. Your workforce, the career's culture, the consortium you guys are bringing to the table, partners, you know this is an ecosystem now, it's a system. >> Yes John, I think that probably, it's also worth talking a little bit about the pressures on state governments around public health issues which are coming to the fore. And clearly we need to develop alternative ways that we engage with mass audiences and technology is going to be absolutely key. One of the challenges I still think that we've not resolved in the U.K. level, this is probably a global issue, is about data protection. When we're talking to cross governmental agencies, it's about sharing data and establishing protocols and we've enjoyed a few challenging conversations with colleagues around data protection. So I think those need to be set out in the context of the journey of this particular project. I think that what's interesting around COVID is that, hasn't materially changed the nature in which we do things, probably not in our focus and our work remains the same. But what we're seeing is very clear evidence of the ways, I mean, who would have thought that 12 months ago, the majority of our workforce would be working from home? So rapid mobilization to ensure that people can use, set IT home effectively. And then how does that relationship impact with people in the communities we're serving? Some of whom have got access to technology, others who haven't. So that's been, I think the biggest change, and that is a fundamental change in the design and delivery of future services that organizations like us will be providing. So I would say that overall, some things remain the same by and large but technology is having an absolutely profound change in the way that our engagement with customers will go forward. >> Well, you guys are in the front end of some massive innovation here with this, are they possible and that, you're really delivering impact. And I think this is an example of that. And you brought up the data challenges, this is something that you guys call privacy by design. This is a cutting edge issue here because there are benefits around managing privacy properly. And I think here, your solution clearly has value, right? And no one can debate that, but as these little blockers get in the way, what's your reaction to that? 'Cause this certainly is something that has to be solved. I mean, it's a problem. >> Yeah, so we designed a solution, I think we had, when we design, I co-designed with your end-users actually. We had up to 14 lawyers working with us at one point in time looking at different kinds of angles. So definitely really tackle the solution with privacy by design in mind and with end users but obviously you can't co-design with thousands of people, you have to co-design with a representative subset of a cohort. And some of the challenge we find is obviously, the media have done a lot of scaremongering around technology, AI and all of that kind of things, especially for people that are not necessarily digitally literate, people that are just not in it. And when we go and deploy the solution, people are a little bit worried. When we make them, we obviously explain to them what's going to happen if they're happy, if they want to consent and all that kind of things. But the people are scared, they're just jumping on a technology on top of it we're asking them some questions around consent. So I think it's just that the solution is super secured and we've gone over millions of hoops within Accenture but also with Hafod itself. You know, it's more that like the type of user we deploying the solution to are just not in that world and then they are little bit worried about sharing. Not only they're worried about sharing with us but you know, in home care, there there's an option as well to share some of that data with your family. And there we also see people are kind of okay to share with us but they don't want to share with their family 'cause they don't want to have too much information kind of going potentially worrying or bothering some of their family member. So there is definitely a huge education kind of angle to embracing the technology. Not only when you create the solution but when you actually deploy it with users. >> It's a fabulous project, I am so excited by this story. It's a great story, has all the elements; technology, innovation, cidal impact, data privacy, social interactions, whether it's with family members and others, internal, external. In teams themselves. You guys doing some amazing work, thank you for sharing. It's a great project, we'll keep track of it. My final question for you guys is what comes next for the home care after the trial? What are Hafod's plans and hopes for the future? >> Maybe if I just give an overview and then invite Jamie and Laetitia. So for us, without conversations, you don't create possibilities and this really is a reflection of the culture that we try to engender. So my ask of my team is to remain curious, is to continue to explore opportunities because it's home care up to today, it could be something else tomorrow. We also recognize that we live in a world of collaboration. We need more cross industrial partnerships. We love to explore more things that Accenture, Amazon, others as well. So that's principally what I will be doing is ensuring that the culture invites us and then I hand over to the clever people like Jamie and Laetitia to get on with the technology. I think for me we've already learned an awful lot about home care and there's clearly a lot more we can learn. We'd love to build on this initial small-scale trial and see how home care could work at a bigger scale. So how would it work with thousands of users? How do we scale it up from a cohort of 50 to a cohort of 5,000? How does it work when we bring different kinds of organizations into that mix? So what if, for example, we could integrate it into health care? So a variety of services can have a holistic view of an individual and interact with one another, to put that person on the right pathway and maybe keep them out of the health and care system for longer, actually reducing the costs to the system in the long run and improving that person's outcomes. That kind of evidence speaks to decision-makers and political partners and I think that's the kind of evidence we need to build. >> Yeah, financial impact is there, it's brutal. It's a great financial impact for the system. Efficiency, better care, everything. >> Yeah and we are 100% on board for whatever comes next. >> Laetitia-- >> What about you Laetitia? >> Great program you got there. A amazing story, thank you for sharing. Congratulations on this awesome project. So much to unpack here. I think this is the future. I mean, I think this is a case study of represents all the moving parts that need to be worked on, so congratulations. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> We are the Art of the Possible here inside the Cube, part of AWS Reinvent Executive Summit, I'm John Furrier, your host, thanks for watching. (bright upbeat music)

in the beginning there were mainframes a highly centralized secure command and control environment open systems brought a spate of innovation innovations that were powered by machines servers storage arrays networks that had to be configured deployed and managed by specialists virtualization that made that simpler but it was still a machine centric world the cloud devops and importantly containers created an inflection point in the industry where no longer do developers have to do a handoff to an infrastructure guru to deploy and often reconfigure systems which could cause other problems containers essentially codified the infrastructure to the point where developers could now be responsible for the full stack with consistency that allows stretching if you will of applications between on-prem to the cloud across clouds and out to the edge kubernetes in particular has enabled organizations to host applications and containers with automation so you can now deploy as many instances of your application as required and communicate between different services used by those applications in a consistent manner manner what this does is enables rolling updates security patches in a run anywhere environment that is changing how organizations build and manage their applications hello and welcome to this cube conversation and preview to kubecon cloud nativecon north america 2021 i'm pleased to welcome my friend and guest stu miniman director of market insights for cloud platforms at red hat stu man great to see you so good to see you dave thanks for having me you're very welcome so you heard my little spiel up front a little narrative what are the big trends that you're seeing that you're watching that you think people should know about they're important yeah well well dave i'm so glad you started out talking about the application because dave i mean you know my background your background very much too is started in infrastructure and for so long we talked about well let's dig different increments that we talk about the infrastructure but there was that huge divide between the people that run the infrastructure and the people that build and own the applications and when agile and devops came out we talked about not throwing things over the wall but when we look at containers and kubernetes really what it is is an application to build our application to modernize our application to run our application as you said they they have to be more that that right once go anywhere has been something we've wanted for a while and from a developer viewpoint i haven't wanted to think about the infrastructure so we want to enable that we want developers to be able to do their thing what we've done at red hat is try to have that consistency in every environment because kubernetes is only a single a very thin layer there's lots that needs to be done on top of that but one of the biggest trends is from an application standpoint the same thing that we've seen in other environments dave when you say okay well what apps did you have well you know it's great to say i have the cool micro service new stuff but what about older applications what about modernizing things can i lift things over can i have a broader spectrum of applications and yes that's where we are with kubernetes we don't just have stateless applications that are you know written in this new modern way we have a broad spectrum and there's another word that i really keyed off of in your intro talking about automation dave if you talk about scale and you talk about automation that's what container was built for if you look at what you know the the predecessor kubernetes was borg at google and if you think about just building things at scale and building things for with automation at their core that's what we've done and that's where this ecosystem is building towards so not saying everybody needs to be google but when you start talking about ai applications when you start talking about different ways to really have automation built into your environment this is where containers and kubernetes really shines because you know that's where we've really gone beyond human scale dave and we've gone to that machine scale so we need to make sure not just to remove humans to remove errors but to be able to have that agility and flexibility and scale which is what offers in this space so all the cool kids of course they want to develop in the cloud but i feel like for every app that's developed in the cloud there's like 10 on prem that are screaming to be modernized and we have a we have a chart on this but so what kind of applications are you seeing going in to containers and kubernetes yeah so so two two charts here for the survey we actually did for kubecon europe leading up to it the one on the left talks about the data is it stateless applications is it stateful applications well what do you know dave it's a mix of both of those right you'll remember dave in the virtualization days it took us about a decade to solve those storage and networking things how do we make sure that things really run at the virtual machine layer how do we have things like moving all over the place and still not break the connection that we had there that was a lot of hard work that we as an industry did well you know here we are six seven years into kubernetes we've solved a lot of those same issues so storage and networking work much better today in kubernetes environments than it did in the early days it started out oh stateless applications but if you look at the data on the second side what kind of applications are there the answer dave is yes you want your cool new modern databases absolutely ai and ml absolutely uh you know through kind of your isv you know more traditional applications the the answer is yes so customers are doing a whole lot of it when i'm meeting with customers one of the first questions we always have dave we've worked on silo busting for for many decades in this industry but if you talk to the infrastructure team and you ask them well what apps are you putting on there if they don't have a good answer the first thing we do is hey you really need to get the developers in the room you really need to understand this because if you stand up a platform just because kubernetes is cool and it's great it helps you build your resume you're not going to have success down the road you want to make sure they're involved up front understand what the requirements so you know kubernetes uh that one of the joke is you know containers and kubernetes add some magic and you know yippee you win it's like well there's a little bit more to that uh to actually have it work you mentioned it took decade plus to actually you know kind of work it out in the virtualization days i mean you remember the api you know stuff and we have the scars from their revenues right exactly but it's interesting when i look at this chart that you know because like you said it started off it's kind of stateless database yes all kinds of applications but database is number one and so you've got a lot of stateful applications enterprise apps security sensitive i mean everything's security sensitive today but hyper security sensitive so do you feel like that time frame relative to you know two decades ago is going to be compressed yes it seems like it's compressing quite rapidly absolutely the cncf always puts out a survey around the event as to where adoption is it's a little bit of a self-selecting for the community but containers and kubernetes broad adoption we've really not only crossed the chasm we're into the you know solid majority of of adoption here and yeah the the databases i mean dave you've covered things like the postgres uh world uh companies like crunchy data uh and some of these modern databases are really built for this type of environment and as you said they shouldn't have to think as much about okay i'm in a cloud or i'm in a different cloud this containerized platform that for applications can live in a lot of different places and that goes to kind of what we're seeing changing in the in the infrastructure world uh over the last couple years i'm glad to mention that a database i was interviewing josh uh at the postgres event and he was explaining to me how far kubernetes has actually come and and how much you know more trustworthy it is today still still some gaps but much different than even two or three years ago yeah i guess one of the highlights interesting at the kubecon europe uh there was the general availability of both the pipelines project and the get ops project it was it's argo cd is the project for for get ops and when that went ga for red hat we actually have that built into openshift at ga and not only was it ready to go we actually had a few customers that were ready to say hey we're using this and we're using the production so we had xa insurance one of the largest payers in the globe and the largest bank in turkey uh were two of the ones that we had saying hey we're using this for the audience if you're not familiar with git ops it's everything we use github as the repository of records so that this is kind of if you think about the old days we had the gold cd or the gold server well we do that for our entire stack that whole infrastructure's code that we've been talking about so many years but it will manage that for us so i patch it at the github level and it will enforce what i have in my environment so if somebody oh wait let me make a change no it's constantly validating things at github so it keeps it rather regimented so we've had uh as i mentioned a couple of customers we've seen a lot of interest in the public sector space because of course dave they're very concerned around security and patching and access and we want to keep that least access necessary so if we can keep that at the github level that's one of the things that will help your environment it really ties into the whole kind of git ops ai ops modern environment so it really ties all of it together as to kind of the the culture of the application and the infrastructure so your files your config files your policies same api same console that is how you get the scale yeah absolutely it's we we don't want the people to have to manage that as much you can let them focus on where they're going to add value to the business so let's talk about cloud cloud the definition of cloud is changing the cloud is expanding it's going on-prem there's hybrid connections to to a cloud or multiple clouds across clouds now as seems to be becoming more real we could talk about that and then maybe eventually out to the edge they're all real in their own right but how much is actually being connected together is something that i'm interested in but what are you seeing there what role is kubernetes playing yeah so first you talked about where applications live the latest data i've seen from kind of the the industry watchers is what are we dave 20 25 of applications are in the cloud that means there's a lot still in the data center if i look at open shift customers yes do we have a lot of them in the data center but then they are also using the public cloud so we have deep partnerships with amazon and azure to do public services in the cloud and our value is we give consistency across all of those environments so are using data center yes most customers still have data center do you have one or more clouds absolutely you know i used to love the andy jassy line um you know multi-cloud doesn't mean that you spread evenly across all the clouds most customers i talk to they have a primary provider that they partner with but things change over time we've seen plenty of customers go two or three years in and say well i have a strategic initiative sometimes they make an acquisition and they'll do another cloud or you know there's lots of factors why i might be doing more than one cloud there's certain industries where basically you have to have relationships with multiple vendors or there's there's regulations that you need to be concerned about so the answer is yes what we've been talking about more than a decade at red hat is open hybrid cloud and what does that mean today you might have not have planned it out but you're hybrid today and what are you going to be in the next decade you're going to be even more hybrid so edge if we talk about it everyone is talking about one of the biggest trends here is how does kubernetes go out to the edge even more that consistency message that i talked about where does openshift live openshift lives anywhere that red hat enterprise linux lives so rel am i going to have linux out of these small environments without a lot of resources what else are you going to have other than linux that's going to be the foundation of what you have so if i can have management and consistency that push out to all of those environments and we've been building out a portfolio something that you'll see us talking about more at kubecon in la is single node openshift so this is a really small footprint openshift but still have the consistency to work across all these environments and we've had different footprints basically to be able to do edge and remote offices whether you're talking from a service provider out to a full customer premise data center but there's there's a lot going on in the edge space we actually have we already have a public use case with verizon who's doing some of the ai use cases i'm sure you can picture with verizon being such a large telco the touch points that they have not only at the service provider but to their customer environments and openshift is the platform for enabling that innovation i mean if i had a big application portfolio on-prem you know legacy company with you know 100-year history obviously i'm going to be doing some stuff in the cloud i would be building some kind of abstraction layer that would could obviously modernize my on-premise state i would want to i would probably start with amazon i'd want to take advantage of aws cloud native tooling but i would absolutely be doing the same thing in azure and google and i would want to build my own cloud right and and and service my customers or or my company have people log into that cloud hide the underlying complexity of the technology and just simplify everything up level it and build a stack around that and probably build it on on openshift why not and of course kubernetes but there are alternatives there's there's eks anywhere for example which presumably is a competitor what do you how is that impacting the marketplace yeah so so dave as you said everybody is kind of extending beyond where they live so microsoft azure has their arc offering google has anthos and amazon was the last one i mean dave you'll remember this when we talked about hybrid and multi-cloud for a bunch of years it was like amazon doesn't talk about hybrid or multi-cloud and you know back when i sat on the analyst side i was like well you can't talk about hybrid and multi-cloud without talking about amazon so they've now uh eks anywhere something they announced back at re invent it just went generally available recently and so they have a distribution of kubernetes that you can use on your own so you could have completely disconnected in your data center running only on vmware is the only way that they support it today and they have in beta there's something called an eks connector so if you want it to be managed from the cloud and have someone more of that consistency they have the way to do that they've had eks which is their kubernetes service in amazon for a bunch of years but as a friend of the program corey quinn says there's actually 17 different ways to run containers in amazon today that's supported by amazon and you laugh at it but you know dave it's it's no different you know remember the storage world okay how many different storage products did emc have do you know how many compute and storage products amazon have they have a lot growing so one of those offerings that they have natively in the console is red hat openshift service for aws so is eksd a competitor well if you're an amazon customer and you want everything amazon and you want to use their environment in a hybrid environment yes you can do that part of the strategy for amazon is outpost we've got on our roadmap to be able to support openshift on outposts so you know we look at our our positioning is we are much more than kubernetes if you talk about the stack of tooling that we build on top of it we've done a real lot to make sure that developers have the tooling that they need from an amazon environment it's just the kubernetes piece it's a in the cloud it's a managed control plane in your own data center it's here's a kubernetes distribution good luck with it if you want monitoring and observability if you want more security if you want all these other pieces you need to build them on top of that as opposed to openshift gives you a full application development platform you know forrester wave we were you know far and away the top and to the right on on that uh spectrum with the leading position for both developers and operators so you know great to see amazon you know i i i hate to say they're like validating something that we do but look everybody's going to do it's true this is true i know that's the marketing line but and and i hate to do the the marketing line but um it's you will you see everyone rolls out their pieces and you say what is the game that they are playing it's amazon wants you to consume as much of their services as you can from a red hat standpoint it's well everywhere that rel can go we can go so openshift can live a lot of places we are going to give you the best experience in your data center in amazon in azure in google in your hosted in the edge we're going to work in all of those environments and we've got years of experience with thousands of production employments like in the data center eks anywhere sitting on top of vsphere as far as i know we have at red hat the most production kubernetes deployments on vmware are openshift actually at vmworld i'll be talking about i'm i'm on a panel talking about openshift on vsphere with vmware so long deep partnership that we've had there no one can speak to the breadth and depth of uh what we've done there uh what's the little line amazon always says there's no compression algorithm for experience well i like it okay but that's why i like your edge strategy because i've said many times the edge is going to be won by developers it's not going to be won by taking a you know x86 box throwing it over the fence and saying okay we got edge and i think you know that's tongue-in-cheek i think that the traditional enterprise hardware vendors are understanding that but they're not in a great position with developers you know maybe cisco a little bit with devnet but generally speaking you know vmware obviously uh it always has been struggling the edge is you know the challenge with the edge is you always have to look through it as to what your perspective is so we have a long and deep relationship with a lot of the telecommunications providers uh people will disparage openstack some but that's actually the solutions that we've sold the most into are network function virtualization for the telco and a lot of them have followed what they worked with us on openstack and continued that into openshift and verizon being one of those proof points you've seen my etr data and i tell you openstack keeps popping up and when you dig into it it's oh that's telco there may not be maybe there's not a region there and it's telcos developing their own cloud essentially and you know they're monetizing it so let's talk about um a cncf the ecosystem uh it's we have another slide on this if you guys wouldn't mind bringing it up i mean it's a complicated matter right you got here's the picture i mean it's like you can't read it because there's just so many people that wants to stop this from becoming you know kind of openstack too yeah that's a great question so chris wright our cto i thought really boiled it down really well one of the big problems with openstack is we were building a complete stack so when they said oh there's all these projects it's like okay well we're going to create a big tent and under that big tent you have to have all of these pieces and they all need to work together and while they were modular projects i needed to have that full stack validated and managing and maintaining that was a nightmare what is the cncf landscape it is you know what doesn't hundred more projects that are independent of what they had so yes kubernetes is the one that gets the most attention but takes something like service mesh service mesh has been around for a few years it's hot we're still early on the adoption trend service mesh works with kubernetes but it isn't limited to kubernetes it's one of those venn diagram it works with it but you can also work with my virtual environment it works in other places and that's true of a lot of these projects often they are complementary to kubernetes but i can adopt them standalone so the challenge is it is that paradox of choice when you go out there there are some people that want to go to the grocery store and buy all of their various pieces and put it all together well other people will come to us and say hey i just want my developers to get working i don't want them to spend all their time fighting over what they had and at red hat we say great we're going to have an opinionated platform and if you come down later and say oh there's a piece of it i don't want to use or i have some other tool i can have its batters are included they're optional and they're swappable so that's what's nice in this developer environment so you know we also work with you know companies like hashicorp a lot of our customers use vault for their secrets uh you know git lab is is another pure var in this industry that have a lot of developer tools they're not a kubernetes provider they usually sit higher up in the stack than we do so there's a lot of players there's a lot of room for activity and innovation yes we've seen a cambrian explosion of projects there and there has been some consolidation that's part of the job of the cncf is in the observability world they took uh i can't remember there were two projects that were kind of similar and they got them in a room and got them to agree to put them into a single project and put those together so we do see some consolidation over time but there's still room for a lot of growth standards are good but so is optionality i think is your point there so the event is october 11th to the 15th it's actually an in-person event you're planning on being there so i i am it's it's hybrid i know a lot of people will be online the other thing i'd point out there are a lot of day zero events so these are really awesome there's a git ops day there's security day there's so many different pieces i'll actually be for the day zero i'll be emceeing the openshift commons where we get a bunch of end users to just tell their stories projects they're working on deployments that they have have some good partner ecosystem discussion there it's usually a lot of fun we hope a bunch of people come to those in purses and then you know the day itself uh the the three days of the show itself are always hopping and lots of learning to be done uh whether you're there in person or online fantastic so i'm glad you pointed out it is a hybrid event that's kind of the nature of these things these days and i think we'll be for for some time i think potentially indefinitely i think people are realizing hey you know what as much of a pain in the neck as virtual events are we can reach a lot more people and it's a good on-demand experience so have at it stu thanks so much for for coming into the cube studios we miss you glad to see you're thriving and uh good luck at the show and uh we'll see you around the block thanks dave i know i'll be seeing john on the cube there too absolutely okay thanks for watching everybody this is dave vellante we'll see you next time you

>>from the cube studios in Palo alto >>in boston >>connecting with thought leaders all around the >>world. This >>is a cute conversation. Hello and welcome to today's session of the AWS Global Public sector Partner Awards. I'm your host Natalie ehrlich. Today we're going to focus on the following award for best partner transformation. I'm pleased to introduce our guests, josh door smith, vice president of public sector at Effectual and jeremy Yates, deputy technology architect at jenny May. Welcome gentlemen so glad to have you on our show. >>Hi there. Very nice to be here. Thank you so much for having me >>terrific. Well josh, I'd like to start with you. How can companies leverage cloud native solutions to deliver higher quality services? >>So Natalie, that's a great question. And in the public sector and our our government customers, we run into this all the time. It's kind of our bread and butter. What what they can do is the first thing they need to be aware of is you don't have to be afraid of the cloud as some very obscure technology that is just emerging. It's been out for 10, 11 years now, customers across government space are using it lock stock and barrel to do everything from just managing simple applications, simple websites all the way through hosting their entire infrastructure, both in production and for disaster recovery purposes as well. So the first thing to note is just don't be afraid of the cloud. Um secondly, it's, it's imperative that they select the right partner who is able to kind of be there Sherpa to go into however far they want to dip their toe into the, into the proverbial cloud waters. Um to select somebody who knows whatever it is that they need to go do. So if they want to go Aws as we are talking about today, pick a partner who has the right experience, past performance designations and competencies with the cloud that they're interested in. >>Terrific. Well, you know, Jeremy, I'd love to move to you. What does modern modernization mean to jenny May? >>Sure, Thanks Natalie, great to be here. Thanks josh as well, you know. So for jenny May, modernization is really, it's not just technology is holistic across the organization. So that includes things like the business, um not just you know, the the I. T. Division. So we're looking at the various things to modernize like our culture and structural changes within the organization. Um moving to implement some, some proven practices like def sec ops and continuous integration and continuous delivery or deployment. Uh and then, you know, our overall overarching goal is to give the best and most secure technology to the business that we can to meet the Jeannie Mai mission and the needs of our customers >>terrific. Well josh, how is Effectual planning to support jenny Maes modernization plans? >>So we have been supporting jenny May for about 14 months now. Uh and back in september of last year, we rewarded a co prime 10 year contract for Jeannie Mai to do exactly that. It's to provide all things cloud to Jeannie Mai for 10 years on AWS and that's including reselling AWS. That's including providing all sorts of professional services to them. And it's, it's providing some third party software applications to help them support their applications themselves. So what Effectual is doing is kind of a threefold. We are supporting the modernization of their process, which jeremy mentioned a moment ago and that includes in stan shih ating a cloud center of Excellence for jenny May, which enables them to modernize the way they do cloud governance while they're modernizing their technology stack. We're also providing a very expert team of cloud architects and Dempsey cops engineers to be able to, to design the Jeannie Mai environment, collaborating with our co prime uh to ensure that it meets the security requirements, the compliance requirements that jerry mentions. Uh, Jeannie Mai is a federal entity, but it also has to adhere to all the finance industry uh compliance requirements as well. So very strenuous from that perspective. And then the third thing that we're doing to help them kind of along their modernization journey is in stan shih aging infrastructure as code. So in the cloud, rather than building everything in the AWS management console, we script everything to build it automatically, so it improves consistency, it improves the customer experience regardless of which resource is working on it. And it improves disaster recovery capability as well. And also, just quite frankly, the speed by which they can actually deploy things. >>And jeremy, how is this transition helping your security really enhancing it now? >>Uh From a security perspective we're implementing a number of various tools um both, you know, a W. S based as well as other software that josh mentioned. Um So we're able to utilize those in a more scalable manner than we could previously in the traditional data center. Um we've got a number of things such as we're looking at multiple vulnerability management products like 10 of Ohio and Wallace. Um we're using uh tools such as Centra fi for our our pam or privileged access management capabilities. Um Splunk a pretty industry standard. Um software for log and data correlation and analysis um will also be using that for some system and application monitoring. Um as well as uh the Mcafee envision product for endpoint and other cloud service security. So being able to pull all those in in a more scalable and more cost efficient way as well from cloud based services. Uh, it's really helped us be able to get those services and integrate them together in a way that, you know, we may not previously been able to. >>Yeah, terrific. Well, josh, let's move back to you and talk further about compliance. You know, any insight here, how Effectual is building a modern cloud infrastructure to integrate AWS services with third party tools to really achieve compliance with the government requirements. Just any further insight on that >>front? That's a great question. Natalie and I'm gonna tag team with Jeremy on this one if you don't mind, but I'll start off so jenny may obviously I mentioned earlier has federal requirements and financial requirements so focused right now on on those federal aspects. Um, so the tools that Jeremy mentioned a moment ago, we are integrating all of them with a W. S native meaning all of the way we do log aggregation in the various tools within AWS cloudwatch cloud trail. All of those things were implementing an AWS native, integrating them with Splunk to aggregate all of that information. But then one of the key requirements that's coming up with the federal government in the very near future is tick three dot or trusted internet connection. Basically in the first iteration a decade or so ago, the government wanted to limit the amount of points of presence that they have with the public facing internet fast forward several versions to today and they're pushing that that onus back on the various entities like jenny May and like hud, which Jeannie Mai is a part of but they still want to have that kind of central log repository to where all of the, all of the security logs and vulnerability logs and things like that. Get shipped to a central repository and that will be part of DHS. So what effectual has done in partnership with jenny May is create a, a W. S native solution leveraging some of those third party tools that we mentioned earlier to get all of those logs aggregated in a central repository for Ginny MaE to inspect ingest and take action from. But then also provide the mechanism to send that to DHS to do that and correlate that information with everything coming in from feeds across the government. Now that's not required just yet. But we're future proofing jenny Maes infrastructure in order to be able to facilitate adherence to those requirements when it becomes uh required. Um, and so jeremy, I'll pass it over to you to talk a little bit further about that because I know that's one of the things that's near and dear to your sister's heart as well as jenny may overall. >>Yeah, absolutely. Thanks josh. Um, so yeah, we, as you mentioned, we have implemented um, uh, sort of a hybrid tech model right now, um, to to handle compliance on that front. Um, so we're still using a, you know, some services from the legacy or our existing T two dot x models. That that josh was mentioning things such as m tips, um, uh, the Einstein sensors, etcetera. But we're also implementing that take 30 architecture on our own. As josh mentioned that that will allow us to sort of future proof and and seamlessly really transitioned to once we make that decision or guidance comes out or, you know, mandates or such. Um, so that effort is good to future proof house from a compliance perspective. Um, also, you know, the tools that I mentioned, uh, josh reiterated, those are extremely important to our our security and compliance right. Being able to ensure, you know, the integrity and the confidentiality of of our systems and our data is extremely important. Not both, not just both on the r not only on the government side, but as josh mentioned, the finance side as well. >>Terrific. Well, I'd love to get your insight to on AWS workspaces. Um, if either one of you would like to jump in on this question, how did they empower the jenny May team to work remotely through this pandemic? >>That's a great question. I guess I'll start and then we'll throw it to jeremy. Um, so obviously uh effectual started working with jenny May about three weeks after the pandemic formally started. So perfect timing for any new technology initiative. But anyway, we, we started talking with Jeremy and with his leadership team about what is required to actually facilitate and enable our team as well as the government resources and the other contractors working for jenny May to be able to leverage the new cloud environment that we were building and the very obvious solution was to implement a virtual desktop infrastructure uh type solution. And obviously Jeannie Mai had gone all in on amazon web services, so it became the national natural fit to look first at AWS workspaces. Um, so we have implemented that solution. There are now hundreds of jenny May and jenny make contractor resources that have a WS workspaces functioning in the GovCloud regions today and that's a very novel approach to how to facilitate and enable not only our team who is actually configuring the infrastructure, but all the application developers, the security folks and the leadership on the jenny may side to be able to access, review, inspect, check log etcetera, through this remote capability. It's interesting to note that Jeannie Mai has been entirely remote since the pandemic initiated. Jeremy's coming to us from, from west Virginia today, I'm coming to us from national harbor Maryland And we are operating totally remotely with a team of 60 folks about supporting this specific initiative for the cloud, not to mention the hundreds that are supporting the applications that Jamie runs to do its day to day business. So jeremy, if you wouldn't mind talking about that day to day business that jenny may has and, and kind of what the, the mission statement of Jeannie Mai is and how us enabling these workspaces uh facilitates that mission >>or you know, so the part of the overall mission of jenny Maes to, to ensure affordable housing is, is made available to uh, the american public. Um that's hud and, and jenny may as part of that and we provide um mortgage backed securities to help enable that. Um, so we back a lot of V A. Loans, um, F H A, those sort of loans, um, workspaces has been great in that manner from a technology perspective, I think because as you mentioned, josh, it's really eliminated the need for on premise infrastructure, right? We can be geographically dispersed, We can be mobile, um, whether we're from the east coast or west coast, we can access our environment securely. Uh, and then we can, you know, administer and operate and maintain the technology that the business needs to, to fulfill the mission. Um, and because we're able to do that quickly and securely and effectively, that's really helpful for the business >>Terrific. And um, you know, I'd like to shift gears a bit and uh you know, discuss what you're looking ahead toward. What is your vision for 2021? How do you see this partnership evolving? >>Yeah, you >>Take that 1/1. >>Sure. Yeah. Um you know, definitely some of the things we look forward to in 2021 as we evolve here is we're going to continue our cloud journey um you know, through practices like Deb said cops, you realize that uh that journey has never done. It's always a continual improvement process. It's a loop to continually work towards um a few specific things or at least one specific thing that we're looking forward to in the future, as josh mentioned earlier was our arctic three Oh Initiative. Um, so with that we think will be future proofed. Um as there's been a lot of um a lot of recent cyber security activity and things like that, that's going to create um opportunities I think for the government and Jeannie Mai is really looking forward to to leading in that area. >>Mhm and josh, can you weigh in quickly on that? >>Absolutely. Uh First and foremost we're very much looking forward to receiving authority to operate with our production environment. We have been preparing for that for this last year plus. Uh but later on this summer we will achieve that 80 oh status. And we look forward to starting to migrate the applications into production for jenny May. And then for future proof, it's as jerry jerry mentioned, it's a journey and we're looking forward to cloud optimizing all of their applications to ensure that they're spending the right money in the right places uh and and ensuring that they're not spending over on any of the one given area. So we're very excited to optimize and then see what the technology that we're being able to provide to them will bring to them from an idea and a conceptual future for jenny may. >>Well thank you both so very much for your insights. It's been a really fantastic interview. Our guests josh duggar smith as well as jeremy Gates. Really appreciate it. >>Thank you very much. >>Thank you so much. >>Terrific. Well, I'm your host for the cube Natalie or like to stay tuned for more coverage. Thanks so much for watching.

(upbeat music) >> From around the globe, it's theCUBE with digital coverage of Postgres vision 2021 brought to you by EDB. >> Hello everybody. Welcome back to Postgres Vision 21. My name is Dave Vellante and we're super excited to have Josh Berkus on. He's joining us, he's a leader in the Kubernetes community, extremely well-versed in containerized applications, application development, containerizing databases all things Open-source, CUBE alum, Josh Berkus welcome back to theCUBE. Great to see you again. >> Thank you. I'm glad to be here. >> Just recently, you're coming off KuberCon, we heard some of the themes from that event. There was a lot of focus on inclusion and diversity, which of course, you know, that's the Open-source ethos and a lot of discussion around designing security in, the whole conversation about shift left. That's great to see larger companies giving back, to obviously a lot of the pressure over the years on the big companies that there's a one-way street, they're actually giving back, making some investments. So we love to see that. And just Open-source continues to be the main spring of innovation. I got to say, I got to call-out and a recent Red Hat survey the state of the enterprise Open-source in 2021, 90% of technology leaders said that they're adopting Open-source and made a joke that the other 10% they're doing it they just don't know it. But so what were some of your takeaways from the event and some of the trends you're seeing but specifically as it relates to containers. >> So, I mean, you're right, one thing is this sort of return to security, the security topic again because we've had like a couple of things happen. One was, when we initially got, started doing containers or platform with Docker and with early Kubernetes and that sort of thing we got a lot of container image scan, right? So you have like Clare and Docker has a scanning thing and Amazon and Azure have their own scanning things. And people felt that was kind of good enough for a while but then we both had the solar winds hack. And the thing is like, in the meantime, we've gone from a stage where people were mostly using Kubernetes in dev to people using Kubernetes in production. And there's a lot of extra security issues and vulnerabilities that come up in an actual production environment that people just didn't necessarily think about before. And so now we're looking at adding more pieces to the security stack and making those more standard for everyone who uses Kubernetes. And I've had the chance to work with the StackRox folks since they became part of Red Hat. So it's been very exciting to look at the whole thing and look at things like container supply chain because the solar winds showed us obviously, it's not enough to necessarily just trust the vendor. You need to trust their whole supply chain. And it helps to be able to examine that supply chain. >> Yeah, it's very scary when you look at that you're absolutely right. Multiple components of malware coming into an organization through the supply chain cell forming, different signatures. And so it's great to see the community spending time on that and an emphasis on that. Now I got to cut right to the chase here, in 2018, you wrote a two-part blog series it's called Should I run Postgres in Kubernetes? Obviously it's highly relevant for this community. So I want to talk about your perspective, well, first of all, the thing I love about you is you're tactical and you can go deep, but at the same time, you can speak to a business audience. >> Thanks. >> You're welcome and thank you for writing this and communicating the way you do, but talk about when it makes sense and when it doesn't, I mean, that's kind of... My big three takeaways on the pros were simplify, simplify, simplify, especially if you're running application components and other services on Kubernetes but give us the update three years later, why should you, why shouldn't? >> You know let's actually, why don't we zoom out to an even bigger picture? Which is just honestly like every new platform that we've got, right? So when virtualization and VMware became a thing we had the same sort of decisions about when do I move my database to this, when AWS and the public cloud became a thing. I could have like, like if I had written that 12 years ago I could have written it about AWS and it would have had a lot of the same decision tree 'cause what it really sort of comes down to is the more commodifiable a particular database instance is the better candidate it is to move to an advanced infrastructure platform, and the most advanced, currently being Kubernetes. To the extent that you can describe this particular database, what it does, who needs to use it, what's in it in and a simple one pager then that's probably a really good candidate for hosting on Kubernetes. Whereas if you have a database where it's like, Hey, the entire company uses it and it's so complicated we can't describe it's inputs and outputs. That's possibly the last thing in your company that you're going to migrate to Kubernetes, because both in terms of there's less gain to be made there, because the real advantage of moving stuff to Kubernetes is your ability to automate things. The whole way I got into Kubernetes in the first place was I started out way down the line not using containers at all. I was just looking to solve the problem of how do we automate Postgres high availability. That's what I was looking for. And it started out with something I built using SaltStack called handy rep, that Casey and I built. And mostly that was a problem discovery exercise, we discovered what the hard problems were there. And then we moved from that, and then we moved from that to Docker because containers offered an encapsulation strategy because one of the problems you run into when automating high availability is the database actually down or not. And so the first thing that containers offered us was not packaging, what people usually talk about but instead of encapsulation, right, because it's a lot easier to determine is the container running or not, than is the database down or not? Because an actual Postgres database has multiple components and multiple processes that make it up. And some of those can be down without the others being down which can then make you think a database is down that's not actually shut down. And being able to put that in a container, it gives me more of a binary up or down. And then from there, I got into, okay, well but I need to automate a lot of other components. I need to automate the storage and everything else. And that led to Kubernetes. And so if you look at it in terms of deciding when you're going to migrate the database to Kubernetes you look at, can I take advantage of that automation? Is this something that my application workflow and my team organization allows me to do? And if the answer is yes, particularly, if you're in a company that's doing the full dev ops thing where you have a unified development and infra team that owns the entire stack then those people are going to be a really good candidate for moving that stack to Kubernetes. >> Got it. Okay, so let me ask you, in database especially in critical apps, your recovery's everything, when something goes wrong, you got to recover. So if I understand it correctly, just in reading and listening to you, if you've got Kubernetes expertise and you're building applications in that environment then the application components are in there. And am I inferring correctly that you're going to be able to automate and facilitate high quality recovery with certainty? >> Yeah, there's a bunch of infrastructure involved, and this is why, what enterprises do is they move things like the web front-end to Kubernetes first and is what they should do, right? That is absolutely the right order of things to do because the minute that you're looking at bringing databases in, you're now looking at your whole storage infrastructure. So that direct attack storage that was attached physically to one machine is not going to work once you've moved to a container-based cloud. You suddenly need a way to be able to attach that storage to any of the nodes in your cluster so that you can move the database around and you can have fail-over. But once you build those things up, you can't. I mean, some of the stuff that I've done, I work in the office of the CTO now at Red Hat. So I'm not in production support. So the only Postgres instance I'm supporting are ones for some Open-source projects we support like the Python project. And in those cases, it's not a high criticality database, but I'm not support, I'm not on call on the weekend. I want something where it doesn't require need to be on call in order for it to stay up. And so putting that on open shift with the Patroni fail-over driver was the answer for that. And it has failed over in the Red Hat IT team contacts me and says, "Hey, we need to move those servers. And then we'll just add a node to the cluster and delete the old node and it'll do the right thing." And I don't have to worry about it, which is really what you're going for there. >> The other thing I took away from your writing was that you suggested that a lot of the successes in areas where the Postgres databases were rather small and there were a lots of them. And so to the extent that you can automate that you're going to save yourself a lot of problems. Whereas in the flip side if you're running extremely large databases or there may be performance constraint that might be an area to be a little bit more circumspect. >> Yeah and that's absolutely true because like the other side of this, like I've worked with the dev ops people and the people who are on Heroku and that sort of thing that have one database per application, right. And those people are great candidates for migrating. But then I've also worked with the people who have a one big database for the company, where the database is three terabytes in size, it powers their reporting system and their customer's system and the web portal and everything else in one database. That's the one that's really going to be a hard call and that you might in fact, never physically migrate to Kubernetes because even if it's on Kubernetes you are going to mess with the hardware policy to give it its own dedicated machine. So in that case, what I would honestly tend to do is there's a feature in Kubernetes called service catalog that allows you to expose an external service within Kubernetes as if it were a Kubernetes service. And that's what I tend to do with those kinds of databases because it's, there's not a huge advantage in actually physically moving the database to a container. There's a bunch of steps involved and going via service catalog is a lot easier. >> But essentially you're you're speaking the same language in that example that you just gave. >> Yeah. >> Now, the other thing you pointed out at the time that you wrote this article is there's a lot of pre 1.0 kind of alpha in the Kubernetes stack and it might be prudent to if, not putting your HIPAA compliant, since it evolved. >> Yeah, if I was to update two things in the article I guess that would be one of them the other one I'll get to in a minute. So the first one is that, Kubernetes has progressed along that maturity timeline. Like we recently added the production readiness reviews as part of our feature review process. We've really improved tested adherence, so that we're not releasing with known broken tests, and a bunch of other things to make it more stable. But part of it depends on who I'm talking to because there's still degrees here. So if I'm talking to the context of the world of software then Kubernetes has reached the point of maturity that it is as stable as anything else. And if you use a release, you can assume that any sort of major issues have been worked out. The one difference with it and some other platforms people may have used is it's still young enough that backwards compatibility can be an issue. As in Kubernetes releases now three times a year, we've stepped down from four and within three releases you can find yourself needing to change API calls which means needing to refactor parts of your application. So if you compare that with some other things, like a JVM platform, when's the last time you had a major API change with a JVM platform. But you know the Kubernetes is only six years old, so that's part of that. The other thing is the question is I'm talking to the Postgres community, right? Which is within Postgres, people run the daily Postgres snapshot in production. I would not do that with Kubernetes, I would wait for release. So there's still kind of a difference there if people are coming from the Postgres community, right. Is we're used to this really extreme level of stability that we have with Postgres and Kubernetes as a much younger project isn't quite there yet. >> So that's a process, a change that you would have to be aware of if you want to take the benefits of containers with Postgres, you just have to really understand that and make that process part of your change management. >> The other thing I would say has changed is there are new opportunities in running your data warehouse, your big data databases on Kubernetes. A number of platforms, the one I'm most familiar with is Citus, because I worked with those folks that have taken advantage of Kubernetes as a deployment and management platform for their database, their big data database infrastructure, which makes sense because if you look at a lot of modern data analysis and data mining platforms that are built on top of Postgres part of how they do their work is they actually run a bunch of little Postgres instances that they federate together. And then Kubernetes becomes the tool that allows you to manage all of those little Postgres instances. So that's the sort of exception to the, should I migrate this really big database? That can be a yes, if you are migrating it to a big data platform that supports Kubernetes, then it can be a huge advantage. >> Obviously you've got the practitioner knowledge and you were working in the community. I'm wondering if you can share just thinking about sort of the motivation to move to a container environment if you're one of the Postgres folks in the audience could you share any, either anecdotal or other data on business impact, benchmarks that you've seen, some of the things that you've seen some positives there? >> If you actually look at my history when you talk about performance is one, right? And if you actually look at my history, I actually did, and for that matter of some of the folks from Percona and some of our other folks in the database field did a bunch of benchmarks of running Postgres in MySQL, on Kubernetes versus running it not on Kubernetes. And one of the advantages of containers over VMS is that there isn't any intrinsic, there's not any intrinsic sort of layer gap or virtualization that modifies your performance. In other words, if a container is using storage that's present on the node where the container is running it is using that storage through Linux. And therefore the performance is, with some caveats, performance is going to be identical to if you were running that on the host system. Now, where performance differences creep in is that you might not be able to use the same kind of storage. In that Kubernetes and containers systems in general are organized around the idea that no service is using a majority of the resources on the system, so again, if you're planning on user running a larger Postgres database that really needs all the RAM that a system has you're going to have to do a lot of tinkering with Kubernetes configuration to get the same performance, you would have a running it on a dedicated hardware now. >> Okay, but fundamentally you're saying that overhead is less with caveats, like you said, you just mentioned in the story, right? >> Yeah, well, the overhead is not any different from if you were running under the host system. So a really good example of that was, if you go back to on my lightning talking in, (indistinct) Austin, I think. I showed running a benchmark with Postgres on an AWS instance using EBS storage, both not in Kubernetes and in Kubernetes. And there was no perceptible performance difference between the two of them because it was all metered by how fast was EBS for me. >> Right, and I said less, but I should've been more specific less than say you would expect with virtualization. >> Right, and then it just comes down to a business decision, which is that if you're already on some sort of cloud storage or network storage, and again you have databases that can share hardware systems then you shouldn't really expect substantial performance differences by moving to Kubernetes. That's something that you can eliminate inside of words, but if you're going in the process going to be migrating from direct attached storage to network storage then you are going to see a performance difference but that's caused by the change in storage. Or if you're going to be moving from systems that are not shared to systems that aren't shared again you're going to see a difference from them, but it wouldn't be any different than if you did that without Kubernetes containers being involved. >> If you're using any world-class shared storage device from whatever name of big vendor, you're going to accommodate if you're racking and stacking your own flash drives or worse yet spinning disk drives that's in direct attached, that's maybe a different story, so, okay. That's good. Where would you advise people to get started with Postgres and Kubernetes? >> The nice thing is there are a number of advanced systems now, and advanced systems that are supported by the various Postgres vendors. And that can actually be a great place to get started because the systems are Open-source so you can try them out. This is, as far as I know, they're Open-source you can try them out but then if you decide you like them, you can get support. And so that would include Crunchy data. Enterprise DB has a system, and honestly, I have to admit less familiar with than the ones that Crunchy runs. StackRox is another one out of Europe that has their own system for running cloud native Postgres. And there's one I'm forgetting, and what a lot of these have to do with is taking advantage of the automation. 'Cause you can obviously can put Postgres and container play around, right? But your whole point of moving to Kubernetes in general is going to be take advantage of the automation, so you want to look at the various automation platforms and you can go ahead and do that and the one I'm most familiar with because I develop it as Patroni, is the component for automating Postgres. You do Patroni plus you do operators, it's another word that comes in here. But if you're looking at this as a business you're probably going to want something that supported or that at least there's a potential to buy support and a bunch of the different companies in the Postgres space package up these components for you into a platform. Like I know the Crunchy platform uses Patroni plus some proxy stuff, plus PG back rest plus a couple of other things to give you a sort of full automation platform for running Postgres on Kubernetes. >> Awesome, last question. Where are we in the whole container adoption, we started out kind of you've mentioned this stateless and now you're building stateful applications but still you look at the, we look at spending data with our data partners ETR and containers and container orchestration. It's it's right up there with RPA, with cloud, with AI just in terms of the attention and resource that's going in. So it's exploding. It feels like it's still early days. There's a lot of legs left, what do you see? >> Yeah, well, a lot of it is, I mean you're talking about migrating IT infrastructure, right? So where we are with Kubernetes is we have the early adopters, right? We have all the people who were at the point of building their new infrastructure when Kubernetes came out, right. And people who had major unsolved problems which is a big reason for adopting a new platform was just was no old platform for you. and so we sort of have those people and those people are already on Kubernetes and running their stuff there. And so now we're looking at the really long path of people who are not in one of those camps moving, right. And in a lot of cases, that's a matter of coinciding with other reasons why they have to look at an upgrade because even if, whether it's the gradual replacement of old applications by new ones, where you gradually all the legacy applications get offline and the new applications run in Kubernetes or sometimes it's a, "Hey we're waiting for replacement cycle." We're waiting for, we already had plans to move from on-prem to public cloud, and so we're going to move from on-prem to public cloud on Kubernetes, to make it part of the migration. And that'll be years. I still like, I have fingers into other areas, like I still know a lot of people in the nonprofit space and a lot of nonprofits just got around to adopting virtualization, right? Like they're not even at public cloud yet. I don't even talk to them about Kubernetes. There's this huge long tail in terms of adoption. The nice thing is we don't show any signs of stopping, is that one of the things that we kind of learned from earlier stuff particularly learned from our friends at OpenStack was to really really focus on the APIs, to look at who Kubernetes more as the hub of a system of an infrastructure idea with potentially unbounded growth. If you have a new concept that comes in like service mesh, service mesh is not a successor to Kubernetes. It's not an alternative to Kubernetes. It is a thing you layer on top of Kubernetes because we didn't make it exclusive. >> Right. Great, great example going back to OpenStack and thank you for bringing that in because there's lessons learned. And so Josh, we've got to leave it there. Thanks so much for coming back in theCUBE, great conversation, you're awesome. >> Okay, good to talk to you. >> All right, and thank you for watching everybody, keep it right there for more content from Postgres Vision 21. My name is Dave Vellante, you're watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: From around the globe. It's theCUBE with digital coverage of Postgres vision 2021 brought to you by EDB. >> Welcome back to Postgres Vision 21. My name is Dave Vellante. We're thrilled to welcome Carl Olofsen to theCUBE. Carl is a research vice president at IDC focused on data management. The long-time database analyst is the technologist and market observer. Carl, good to see you again. >> Thanks Dave. Glad to be here. >> All right. Let's let's get into it. Let's talk about, let's go right to the, to the source the open source database space. You know, how, what changes have you seen over the last couple of years in that marketplace? >> Well, this is a dynamic area and it's continuing to evolve. When we first saw the initial open source products like mysQl and PostgreSQL on the early days they were very limited in terms of functionality. They were espoused largely by sort of true believers. You know, people who said everything should be open source. And we saw that mainly they were being used for what I would call rather prosaic database applications. But as time has gone by they both of these products improve. Now there's one key difference, of course, which is a mySQL is company owned open source. So the IP belongs to Oracle corporation. Whereas PostgreSQL is community open source, which means that the IP belongs to the PostgreSQL community. And that can have a big difference in terms of things like licensing and so forth, which really matters now that we're coming into the cloud space because as open-source products moving into the cloud space the revenue model is based on subscriptions. And of course they are always based on subscription to open source cause you don't charge for the license. So what you charge for its support, but in the cloud what you can do is you can set up a database service, excuse me, a database service and then you charge for that service. And if it's open source or it's not open source that actually doesn't matter to the user. If you see what that I mean because they still are paying a subscription fee for a service and they get the service. The main difference between the two types is that if you're a commercial provider of PostgreSQL like enterprise DB, you don't have control over where it goes and you don't have control over the IP and how people use it in different ways. Whereas Oracle owns mySQL so they have a lot more control and they can do things to it on their own. They don't have to consult the community. Now there's also, non-relational open source including MongoDB. And as you may be aware, MongoDB has changed their license. So that it's not possible for third party to offer Mongo DB as a complete managed database service without paying a license fee to MongoDB for that. And that's because they own the IP too. And we're going to see a lot more of this sort of thing. I have conversations with open source all the time and they are getting a little concerned that it has become possible for somebody to simply take their technology, make a lot of money off that. And no money goes back to the community. No money goes back to the IRS. It's a company it's just stays with the supplier. So I think, you know it'll be interesting to see how all this is over time. >> So you're suggesting that the Postgres model then is, is I guess I'll use the word cleaner. And so that feels like it's a it's a benefit or is it a two-edged sword kind of thing? I mean, you were saying before, you know a company controls the IP so they could do things without having to go to the community. So maybe they can do things faster. But at the other hand like you said, you get handcuffed. You think you're going to be able to get a, you know a managed service, but then all of a sudden you're not and the rules change midstream saying it, am I correct? That Postgres, the model is cleaner for the customer? >> Well, you know, I mean, a lot of my friends who are in the open source community don't even consider company owned open source to be true open source because the IP is controlled by a company, not by a community. >> Dave: Right >> So from that perspective certainly Postgres SQL is considered, I don't know if you want to use the word cleaner or more pure or something along those lines, but also because of that the nature of community open source it can be used in many different ways. And so we see Postgres popping up all over the place sometimes partially and sometimes altogether, in other words, a service, a cloud service, we'll take a piece of Postgres and stick it on top of their own technology and offer it. And the reason they do that is they know there are a lot of developers out there who already know how to code for Postgres. So they are immediately first-class users of the service that they're offering. >> So, talk a little bit more about what you're seeing. You just mentioned a lot of different use cases. That's interesting. I didn't realize that was, that was happening. The, what are you seeing in terms of adoption in let's say the last 18, 24 months specific to Postgres? >> Yeah, we're seeing a fair amount of adoption in especially in the middle market. And of course there is rapid adoption in the tech sector. Now, why would that be? Well it's because they have armies of technologists. Who know how to program this stuff. You know, when you, you know, a lot of them will use PostgreSQL without a contract without a support contract, they'll just support themselves. And they can do that because they have the technicians who are capable of doing it. Most regular businesses can't do that. They don't have the staff so they need that support contract. And so that's where a company like enterpriseDB comes. I mentioned them only because they're the leading supplier Postgres to all their other suppliers. >> I was talking to Josh Burgers, red hat and he was, you know, he had just come off a Cubacon and he was explaining kind of what's happening in that community. Big focus of course on security and the whole, you know, so-called shift left. We were having a good discussion about, you know when does it make sense to use, you know Postgres in a container environment should you use Postgres and Kubernetes and he sort of suggested that things have rapidly evolved. There's still, you know, considerations but what are you seeing in terms of the adoption of microservices architectures containers, generally Kubernetes how has that affected the use of things like postsgres? >> So those are all different things or need to be kind of custody. >> Pick your favorite. >> They're related then. So microservices, the microservice concept is that you take an application break it up into little pieces and each one becomes a microservice that's invoked through an API. And then you have this whole structure API system that you use to drive the application and they run. They typically, they run in containers usually Kubernetes govern containers but the reason you do this and this is basically a efficiency because especially in the cloud, you want only to pay for what you use. So when you're running a microservice based application. Applications have lots of little pieces when something needs to be done, microservice fires up it does the thing that needs to be done. It goes away. You only pay for that fraction of a second that the microservice is running. Whereas in a conventional application you load this big heavyweight application. It does stop. It sets some weights with things and does more stuff and sits and waits for things. And you pay for compute for that entire period. So it's much more cost effective to use a microservices application. The thing is that microservice, the concept of microservices is based on the idea that the code is stateless but database code isn't stateless cause it has its attraction to the database which is the ultimate kind of like stateful environment right? So it's a tricky business. Most database technologies that are claimed to be container-based actually run in containers the way they run in servers. In other words, they're not microservice-based they do run in containers. And the reason they're doing that is for portability so that you can deploy them anywhere and you can move them around. But you know deploying a microservice based database is, well, it's it's a big technical project. I mean, that is hard to do. >> Right and so talk about, I mean again we're talking to Josh it was clear that that Kubernetes has evolved, you know quite rapidly at the same time there were cautions. In other words, he would say I think suggested things like, you know, there were known at one point, there were known, you know flaws and known bugs that ship the code that's been been remediated or moderated in terms of that practice but still there's there's considerations just in terms of the frequency of updates. I think he gave the example of when was the last time you know, JVM got, you know, overhauled. And so what kind of considerations should customers think about when considering them, they want the Kubernetes they want the flexibility and the agility but at the same time, if they're going to put it production, they've got to be careful, right? >> Yeah, I think you need to make sure you're using you're using functions that are well-established, you know you wouldn't want to put something into production that's new. They say, oh, here's a new, here's a new operation. Let's try that. And then, you know, you get in trouble. So you want to deal conservative that way you know, Kubernetes is open-source so and the updates and the testing and all that follows a rather slow formal process, you know from the time that the submission comes in to the time that it goes out, whereas you mentioned JVMs JV, but it was owned by Oracle. And so JVMs are managed like products. Now there's a whole sort of legal thing I don't want to get into it as to whether it's legal. They claim it's not libero third parties to build JVMs without paying a licensing. I don't want to talk about that, but it's based on a very state that has a very stable base, you know whereas this area of Kubernetes and govern containers is still rapidly evolving but this is like any technology, right? I mean, when you, if you're going to commit your enterprise to functions that run on an emerging technology then you are accepting some risk. You know, that there's no question about it. >> So we talked about the cloud earlier and the whole trend toward managed services. I mean, how does that specifically apply to Postgres? You can kind of imagine like a sidecar, a little bit of Postgres mixed in with, you know, other services. So what do you see and what do you, what's your telescope say in terms of the the Postgres adoption cloud? How do you see that progressing? >> I think there's a lot of potential. There's a lot of potential there. I think we are nowhere near the option that it should be able to achieve. I say that because for one thing, even though we analyze the future at IDC, that doesn't mean we actually know the future. So I can't say what its adoption will be but I can say that there's a lot of potential there. There's a tremendous number of Postgres developers out there. So there's a huge potential for adoption. And especially in cloud adoption, the main thing that would help that is independent. And I know that enterpriseDB has one independent a managed cloud service. So I think they do. >> Yeah I think so. >> But you know, why do I say that? I say that because alternatives these days there are some small companies that maybe they'll survive and maybe they won't, but that, you know, do you want to get involved with them or the cloud platform providers, but if you use their Postgres you're locked into that cloud platform. You know, if you use Amazon, go press on RDS, right? You're not, you become quickly locked in because you're starting using all the AWS tools that surround it to build and manage your application. And then you can't move. If you see what I mean. >> Dave: Yeah . >> They have have an RDS labor Aurora, and this is actually one of the things that it's really just a thin layer of Postgres interaction code underneath Aurora is their own product. so that's an even deeper level of commitment. >> So what has to happen for, so obviously cloud, you know, big trend. So the Postgres community then adopts the code base for the cloud. Obviously EDB has, you know hundreds of developers contributing to that, but so what does that mean to be able to run in the cloud? Is that making it cloud native? Is that extensions? Is it, you know, what technically has to occur and what has occurred and how mature is it? >> Well, so smaller user organizations are able to migrate fairly quickly cloud because most of their applications are you know, commercially purchased. They're like factories applications. When they move to the cloud, they get the SAS one and often the SAS equivalent runs on Postgres. So that's just fine. Larger enterprises are a real mess. If you've ever been in a large enterprise data center you know what I'm talking about? It's just, there's just servers and storage everywhere. There's, all these applications, databases connections. They are not moving to the cloud anytime soon. But what they are doing is setting up things like private cloud environments and applying in there. And this is a place where if you're thinking about moving to something like a Postgres you know most of these enterprises use the big commercial databases. Oracle SQLserver DB two and so forth. If you're thinking of moving from that to a a PostgreSQL development say, then the smart thing to do would be first to do all your work in the private cloud where you'd have complete control over the environment. It also makes sense still to have a commercial support contract from a vendor that you trust, because I've said this again, unless you are, you know, Cisco or somebody, you know, some super tech company that's got all the technicians you need to do the work. You really don't want to take on that level of risk. If you see that, I mean. Another advantage to working with a supplier, a support supplier, especially if you have a close, intimate relationship is they will speed your security patches on a regular basis which is really important these days, because data security is as you know, a growing concern all over the place. >> So let's stay on the skillsets for a minute. Where do you see the gaps within enterprises? What kind of expertise you mentioned, you know support contracts, what are the types of things that a customer should look for in terms of the the expertise to apply to supporting Postgres databases? >> Well, obviously you want them to do the basics that any software company does, right? You want them to provide you with regular updates and binary form that you can load and, you know test and run. You want to have the you know, 24 hour hotline you know, telephone support, all that kind of thing. I think it's also important to have a solid ability on the part of the vendor that you're working with to provide you with advice and counseling as you, especially, if you're migrating from another technology, help your people convert from what they were using to what they're going to be using. So those are all aspects that I would look for in a vendor for supporting a product like PostgreSQL. >> When you think about the migration to the cloud, you know of course Amazon talks a lot about cloud migration. They have a lot of tooling associated with that. >> Carl: Right. >> But when you step back and look at it it did to a point earlier, I mean a lot of the hardcore mission, critical stuff isn't going to move it, hasn't moved, but a lot of the fat middle, you know, is, are good candidates for it. >> Carl: Right. >> How do you think about that? And how do you look at that? I mean, obviously Oracle is trying to shove everything into OCI and they're, you know, they're all in because they realized that could make a lot of money doing that. But what do you, what are the sort of parameters that we should think about when considering that kind of migration, moving a legacy database into the cloud? >> Well, it has to be done piecemeal. You're not going to be able to do it all at once. You know, if you have hundreds of applications, you're not just you don't even want to, you know, it's a good time to take you into it. And what you've got running, ask yourself are these applications really serving the business interests today and will they in the future or is this a good time to maybe consider something else? Even if you have a packaged application, there might be one that is more aligned with your future goals. So it's important to do that. Look at your data integration, try to simplify it. You know, most data integration that most companies has done piecemeal project by project. They don't reference each other. So you have this chaos of ETL jobs and transformation rules and things like that that are just, you know, even difficult to manage. Now, just forget about any kind of migration or transformation considerations, just trying to run it now is becoming increasingly difficult. You know, maybe you want to change your strategy for doing data integration. Maybe you want to consolidate you want to put more data in one database. I'm not an advocate of the idea that you can put all application data in one database by the way, we know from bitter experience that doesn't work, but we can be rational about the kinds of databases that we use and how they sit together. >> Well, I mean, you've been following this for a long time and you saw the sort of rise and fall of the big data meme. And you know, this idea that you can shove everything into a single place, have a single version of the truth. It's like, it's just never seemed to happen. >> Carl: Right. >> So, you know, Postgres has been around a long time. It's evolved. I mean, I remember when, you know, VMware's ascendancy and people are like, okay, should I, you know should I virtualize my Postgres database is your, you know similar conversations that we were having earlier about Kubernetes. You've seen the move to the cloud. We're going to have this conversation about the edge at some point in time. So what's your outlook for Postgres, the Postgres community and, you know database market overall? >> Well, I really think the future for database growth is in the cloud. That's what all the data we're looking at and the case that's what our recent surveys indicate. As I said before, the rate of change depends on the size of the enterprise. Smaller advices are moving rapidly, large enterprises much more slowly and cautiously for the very simple reason that it's a very complex proposition. And also in some cases, they're wondering if they can move certain data or will they be violating your some sort of regulatory constraint or contractual issue. So they need to deal with those things too. That's why the private cloud is the perfect place to get started and get technology all lined up storing your data center is still under your control no legal issues there, but you can start, you know converting your applications to micro-service architected applications running in containers. You can start replacing your database servers with ones that can run in a container environment and maybe in the future, maybe hope that in the future, some of those will actually also be able to run as microservices. I don't think it's impossible but it just involves programming the database server in a very different way than we've done in the past. But you do those things. You can do those things under your own control over time in your own dataset. And then you reach a point where you want to take the elements of your application environment and say, what pieces of this, can I move to the cloud without creating disruption and issues regarding things like data egress and latency from cloud to data center and that kind of thing. And prepare for that. And then you're doing the step wise and then you start converting in a stepwise manner. I think ultimately it just makes so much sense to be in the cloud that the cloud vendors have economies of scale. They can deploy large numbers of servers and storage systems to satisfy the needs of large numbers of customers and create, you know great considerable savings. Some of which of course becomes their profit which is what's due to them. And some of that comes back to the users. So that's what I expect. We're going to see. And oh gosh, I would say that starting from about three years from now the larger enterprises start making their move and then you'll really start to see changes in the numbers in terms of cloud and cloud revenue. >> Great stuff, Carl, thank you for that. So any cool research you're working on lately, how you're spending your your work time, anything you want to plug? >> Well, working a lot on just as these questions, you know cloud migration is a hot topic, another which is really sort of off the subject. And what we've been talking about is graph database which I've been doing a fair amount of research into. I think that's going to be really important in the coming years and really, you know working with my colleagues in a project called the future of intelligence which looks at all the different related elements not just database, data integration but artificial intelligence, data communications and so on and so forth and how they come together to create a more intelligent enterprise. And that's a major initiative that I see. It's one of the, we call the future of initiatives. >> Great, Carls, thanks so much for coming back to theCUBE. It's great to have you, man. I appreciate it. >> Well, I enjoyed it. Now I have to do it again sometime. >> All right you got it. All right thank you everybody for watching theCUBEs. Continuous coverage of Postgres vision 21. This is Dave Vellante keep it right there. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: From around the globe, it's theCUBE with digital coverage of AWS Public Sector Online brought to you by Amazon Web Services. >> Hi and welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of AWS Summit Online. I'm Stu Miniman your host for this segment. Always love when we get to talk to the practitioners in this space and of course at AWS Public Sector, broad diversity of backgrounds and areas, everything from government to education and the like, so really happy they were able to bring us Joshua Spence, he is the Chief Technology Officer, from West Virginia in the Office of Technology. Josh, thank you so much for joining us. >> I appreciate the invitation to be here. >> All right so, technology for an entire state, quite a broad mandate, when you talk about that, maybe give our audience a little bit of your background and the role of your organization for West Virginia. >> Yeah, absolutely so in the public sector space, especially at state government, we're involved in a myriad of services for government to the citizens and from a central IT perspective, we're seeking to provide those enterprise services and support structures to keep those costs controlled and efficient and be able to enable these agencies to service the citizens of the state. >> Excellent, maybe just to talk about the role of the state versus more local, from a technology standpoint, how many applications do you manage? How many people do you have? Is everything that you do in the Cloud, or do you also have some data centers? just give us a little thumbnail sketch if you would, of what what's under that umbrella. >> Sure, absolutely I think you'll see at the state level we have... We typically administer a lot of the federal programs that come down through funding, ranging from health and human resources to environmental protection, to public safety you've got, just a broad spectrum of services that are being provided at the state level and so the central office, the Office of Technology, Services approximately 22,000 state employees and their ability to carry out those services to the citizens. And then of course you have like local government, like in State of West Virginia with 55 counties, and then you're following municipalities. The interesting thing though in public sector is from the citizen's perspective, government is government, whether it's local, state or federal. >> Yeah, that's such a good point and right now of course there's a strain on everything. With the global pandemic, services from the public sector are needed more than ever, maybe help us understand a little bit things like work from home and unemployment, I expect, may require a shift and some reaction from your office. So tell us what's been happening in your space the last few months. >> Yeah absolutely, well, the first part you get the work from home piece rate, West Virginia, although the last state to have a confirmed test positive of COVID-19, we were in a little bit of in a position of advantage as we were watching what was happening across the world, across the country and so we didn't hesitate to react in West Virginia and through great leadership here, we shut down the state quickly, we put protections in place to help, show up and prevent the spread of COVID. And to do that though with the government facilities, government services, we had to be able to enable a remote workforce and do so very quickly, at a scale that no one ever anticipated having to do. Coop plans for the most part rejected just picking up from the location you're working at to go work at another centralized location. No one really ever thought, "Well, we wouldn't be able to all congregate to work." So that created our first challenge that we had to respond to. The second challenge was then how do we adjust government services to interface with citizens from a remote perspective and in addition to that a surge of need. And when you look at unemployment all across the country, the demand became exponentially larger than what was ever experienced. The systems were not equipped to take on that type of load. And we had to leverage technology to very quickly adapt to the situation. >> Yeah, I'd love you to drill in a little bit on that technology piece. Obviously you think about certain services, if I had them, just in a data center and I needed it all of a sudden ramp up, do I run into capacity issues? Can I actually get to that environment? How do I scale that up fast? The promise of Cloud always has been well, I should be able to react immediately, I have in theory infinite scale. So what has been your experience, are there certain services that you say, "Oh boy, I'm so glad I have them in the Cloud." and has there been any struggles with being able to react to what you're dealing with. >> Well yeah the struggles have absolutely been there and it's been a combination of not just on-premise infrastructure, but then legacy infrastructure. And that's what we saw when we were dealing with the unemployment surge here in West Virginia, just from a citizen contact perspective, being able to answer the phone calls that were coming in, it was overwhelming and what we found is we unfortunately had a number of phone systems all supporting whether it's the central office or the regional office, they were all disparate, some of which were legacy. We therefore had no visibility on the metrics, we didn't even know how many calls were actually coming in a day. When you compound that the citizen's just trying to find answers, well, they're not going to just call the numbers you provide, they're going to call any numbers. So then they're now also calling other agencies seeking assistance just 'cause they're wanting help and that's understandable. So we needed to make a change, we need to make change very quickly. And that's when we looked to see if a solution in the Cloud might be a better option. And would it enable us to not only correct the situation, get visibility and scale, what could we do so extremely quick because the time to value was what was real important. >> Excellent, so my understanding that you were not using any cloud-based contact center before this hit. >> We were in only... There were some other agencies that had some hosted contact center capabilities, but on a small scale. This was the first large project around a Cloud Contact Center, and needed to run the project from Go Live or decision to go forward on a Friday at one o'clock and to roll over the first call center on the following Monday at 6:00 p.m. was a speed that we had never seen before. >> Oh boy yeah, I think back, I worked in telecom back in the 90s and you talk about a typical deployment you used to measure months and you're talking more like hours for getting something up and running and there's not only the technology, there's the people, the training, all these sorts of things there, so, yeah tell us, how did you come to such a fast decision and deployment? So you walk us through a little bit of that. >> Sure, so we went out to the market and asked several providers to give us their solution proposals and to do so very quickly 'cause we knew we had to move quickly and then when upon evaluation of the options before us, we made our selection and indicate that selection and started working with both the Cloud provider and the integrator, to build out a phased approach deployment of the technology. Phase one was, hey, let's get everybody calling the same 800 number as best as we can. And then where we can't get the 800 number be that focal point, let's forward all other phone numbers to the same call center. Because before we were able to bring the technology and our only solution was to put more people on the phones and we had physical limitations there. So we went after, the Amazon contact center or our integrator a Smartronix and we were able to do so very quickly and get that phase one change in place, which then allowed us to decide what was phase two and what was going to be phase three. >> Josh, you've got some background in cybersecurity, I guess in general, there's been a raised awareness and need for security with the pandemic going on, bad actors are still going in there. I've talked to some when they're rolling out their call centers, they need to worry about... Sounds like you've got everything in your municipality. So might not need to worry about, government per se but, I guess if you could touch on security right now for what's happening in general and anything specific about the contact center that you need to make sure that people working from home were following policy, procedure, not breaking any regulation and guidelines. >> Yeah, absolutely I think the most important piece of the puzzle when you're looking at security is understanding, so it's always a question of risk, right? If you're seeking first and foremost, to put in security with the understanding that now, hey we've put it in we don't have to think about it anymore. That's not the answer 'cause you're not going to stop all risk, right? You have to weigh it and understand which risks you need to address so that's really important piece. The second part that we've looked at in the current situation with the response to COVID is not only do we see threat actors trying to take advantage of the circumstances, right? Because more people are working from home, there are less computers on the hard network, right? They're now either VPN-ing in or they are just simply outside the network and there may be limited visibility that central agency or the central entity has on those devices. So what do you do? We got to extend that protection out to the account and to the devices itself and not worry so much about the boundary, right? 'cause the boundary now is a lot in all and since it purposes the accounts, but then I think an additional piece of the puzzle right now is to look at how important technology is to your organization, look at the role it's performing in enabling your ability to continue to function remotely (indistinct) the risk associated with those devices becoming compromised or unavailable. So, we see that the most important aspects of our security changes were to extend that protection as best we could to push out education to the users on the changing threats that might be coming their way. >> Yeah, it's fascinating to think if this pandemic had hit 10 years ago, you wouldn't have the capability of this. I'm thinking back to like, well, we could forward numbers to a certain place and do some cascading, but the Cloud Contact Center, absolutely wasn't available. Have you had a chance to think about now that you have this capability, what this means as we progress down the road, do you think you'll be keeping a hybrid model or stay fully Cloud once people are moving back to the offices? >> Well, I definitely think that the near future is a hybrid model and we'll see where it goes from there. There's workloads without a doubt that are better served, putting them in the Cloud, giving you that on demand scalability. I mean, if we look at what a project like this would have required, had we had to procure equipment, install equipment, there was just no time to do that. So having the services, the capability, whether it's microservices or VMS or whatever, all available, just don't need be turned on and configure to be used, it's just there's a lot of power there. And as government seeks to develop digital government, right? How do we transition from providing services where citizens stand in line to doing it online? I think Cloud's going to continue to play a key piece in that. >> Yeah I'm wondering if you could speak a little bit to the financial impact of this. So typically you think about, I roll out a project, it's budgeted, we write it off over a certain number of years, Cloud of course by its nature is there's flexibility and I'm paying for what I'm using, but this was something that was unexpected. So how were you... Did you have oversight on this? Was there additional funding put out? How was that financial discussion happening? >> Yeah, so that's a big piece of the puzzle when a government entity like a state is under a state of emergency, the good thing is there's processes and procedures that we leverage regularly to understand how we're going to fund those response activities. And then the Federal Government plays a role also in responding to states of emergency that enable the state and local government to have additional funding to cover during the state of emergency. So that makes things a little easier to start in a sense, I think the bigger challenge is going to be what comes from the following years after COVID, because obviously tax revenues are going to take a hit across the board. And what does that mean to government budgets that then in turn are going to have to be adjusted? So the advantage of Cloud services and other type technology services where they're sold under that OPEX model, do give states flexibility in ways to scale services, scale solutions as needed and give us a little bit more flexibility in adjusting for budget challenges. >> Yeah, it's been fascinating to watch, we know how the speed of adoption in technology, tends to run at a certain pace. The last three months, there are definitely certain technologies that there's been massive acceleration like you've discussed. So, I'm wondering that you've had the modernization, things like the unemployment claims was the immediate requirement that you needed, but have there been other pieces, other use cases and applications that this modernization, leverage of cloud technologies is impacting you today or other things that you see a little bit down the path. >> Yeah, I think it's... We're going to see a modernization of government applications designed to interface directly with the citizen, right? So we're going to want to be able to give the citizen opportunity, whether it's on a smartphone, a tablet, or a computer to interface with government, whether it's communications to inquire about a service, or to get support around a service or to file paperwork around a service. We want to enable that digital interface and so that's going to be a big push, and it's going to be amplified. There was already a look towards that, right? With the smart cities, smart states and some of the initiatives there, but what's happened with COVID basically it's forced the issue of not being able to be physically together, well, how do you do it using technology? So if there was a silver lining in an awful situation that we have with COVID, one might be that, we've been able to stretch our use of technology to better serve the citizens. >> Well, great, really really impressive story. Josh, I want to give you the final word. Just what advice would you give your peers kind of dealing with things in a crisis, and any other advice you'd have in general about managing and leveraging the Cloud? >> I think in a closing comment, I think one of the most important aspects that can be considered is having that translation capability of talking to the business element, the government service component and understand what they're trying to achieve, what their purpose or their mission is and then being able to tie it back to the technology in a way to where all parties, all stakeholders understand their roles and responsibilities, to make that happen. Unfortunately I think what happens too often is on the business side or the non-technical side of the equation, they see the end state, but they don't truly understand their responsibilities to get to the end state. And it's definitely a partnership and the better that partnership's understood at the start, the more successful the project's going to have to get there under budget and on time. >> Well, thank you so much for joining us, best of luck with the project and please stay safe. >> Thank you for having me. >> All right, stay tuned for more coverage from AWS Public Sector Online. I'm Stu Miniman and thank you for watching theCUBE. (soft music)

>>from the Cube >>Studios in Palo Alto and Boston connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is a cube conversation. >>I am stupid, man. And welcome to a cube conversation. Really? Please welcome back to the program. One of our Cube alumni, Sony, Ge and Donnie. She is a co founder and also the business off of pensando. Tony, thanks so much for joining us. >>I thank you for having me here. >>All right. So, Sonny, we've had you on the program a few times. You know, those that have watched the program or followed your career? You've had a story career. You know, I've worked with you as a partner back through some of the spinning disk. You're one of the mpls group. And now, of course, Pensando we helped launch towards the end of 2019. I just want to take a step back and, you know, understand, You know, how did you find yourself in the startup world? >>You know, I got involved with startup ventures as part of the Mpls team. This is going back now. Gosh, 20 years ago, in calendar year 2000 my first venture was with Andy ammo. It was a very unique situation that Mario look up on myself or part of a set up on a startup venture. But all four of us, the Mpls group, did not have any equity in it. Look, and I basically what asked to operate within the with that venture to ensure its ultimate success from a product execution on the go to market perspective? Ah, lot of those elements did not exist from a go to market perspective in Cisco at that time, and it was basically a ground up effort for look and me to not have any financial association with the outcome off the Andy, um, a venture, but at the same time, take on the responsibility from the execution perspective and building up the whole go to market. >>Yeah, so, you know, talking about that these startups, you've been apart of two things. First of all, you were part of and, ya know, you ova in CNI. So did you need to learn Italian to be part of these projects? But more importantly, how did how did you work on that? You know, product customer fit, understanding what the build and, you know, you talk about right How do you make some things that festival? It is super challenging. >>Yeah, well, first and foremost, I think I've been fortunate in that the group that we're all part off it is definitely Italian Indian. And some folks, like from Indiana, for example, like Randy Pond, who is part of this venture with us at Pensando. If I if I would go back and take a look at the simple formula, I mean Mario look, and from, ah, they're veterans in this industry. And they typically focused on the conceiving off the idea and the brought up, uh, and starting with a clean slate approach. Of course, I participate from a market validation development, competitive landscape on a business on all related aspects, bringing the product to market on how that maps into customers and partners what we have consistently focused on market disruption. Particularly for the last two decades, the biggest focus has been on what are the market transitions occurring both from a business and a technology perspective on that is ultimately what creates the opportunity to emerge on and drive these concepts into reality and what yourself, in a market leadership position, is to capture the transition at the right time. >>Yeah, I think back. You know, some of your previous ventures and understand, you know, some of the waves of technologies coming together sometimes the maturity of a technology or being able to take advantage of something new to talk specifically about. Pensando what are you know, those waves of change and the technology coming together that makes the opportunity that you're in today? >>Well, I mean, if you go back and you take a look at really what has been exciting about this pensando opportunity has been to look at the unique ability that have been coming upon us. You know, with this market transition where the cloud is moving to the edge, what is ultimately driving this movement to the edge has been the application. Uh, the applications is is you know, whether it's driven by technology trends like five G, for example. Ah, and and the fact that bulk off what the customer's data is being driven is going to be at the edge. That when when you look at the cloud moving to the edge and evolving that with the transitions occurring, ah, this will require deep innovation. Deep innovation in the areas of distributed network processing security, like encryption, full observe ability while you have turned on encryption, traffic engineering and doing it at very low, predictable agency at the speeds of 100 gig and above all, doing it on a small footprint. We were really the only guys and gals who could do this. And we have done it, >>Yeah, so certainly some really big challenges that they laid out there bring >>us inside >>a little bit. You know, customers. You know, I think about, you know, when I've been watching edge computing for the last three or four years. Uh, you know, it's still relatively early days for customers, but there's a lot of technical challenges there, So help us understand how much you know it was you had technology that could help solve something and how much it is driven by some of the customers that you've been talking to over the years >>Now. One of the key things that we learned and this was going back to the early days of Cisco is that everything we were doing, we had the customer at the center off and at the heart off what innovation we were building from an engineering perspective. You want to build things that can have the most impact in the marketplace and within your customer base. So, uh, one of the early times we went back, who do getting our customers involved in the innovations we were bringing to bear. I still have recollections off a blueprint that we had iterated upon, uh, and sitting in a room, whether it was with the likes of Josh Matthew at Goldman Sachs all whether it was with some of our early cloud customers like the Oracle Cloud, to better understand with these innovation and these blueprints, what were their burning problems? What were they used, cases that we could really go and tackle? So it is one thing to think about market destructions. It's another to bring it to life and having customers engaged with you during the early phases. Off as you are incubating, something is a very important item because it helps you focus your biggest energy on the areas so that you can put your arms around what problems are worth solving. And how can you bring that to life with with customers? Use case. And this is something we have done time and over again. So this is a constant refinement off what we have been doing now for now, to over two decades. As I said, >>Yeah, it's, you know, fascinating here. And when you've got the chief business officer idle, Sony, You know, one of the biggest changes, obviously, is if I look back in the spin ins, you kind of understood how to go to market was what was involved the, you know, the Cisco execution machine that the sales process that they had in plug in a product, that they would help. All right, what you're doing now, you've got some, you know, feel, William partnerships. You have relationship with customers, help us understand a little bit. You know the update on the go to market, how you have. I have a solution that fits for not only the end users, but through multiple different, uh, you know, go to market partners. >>So I think it's, you know, it's very important that as a startup we stay very close to our customers and apart, not just men. We are thinking about what the innovation is and how can it solve their problems. But I think in a world where the way we want to go solve for what? The customer where we want the customer, where our customers want us to be our partnerships is a core part of it. I mean, if you look at from the early days we secured successfully funding from our customers and our strategic partners and it is these customers and strategic partners that are shaping the roadmap on are shaping the routes to market on. What we're doing is we're successfully not only delivering the product, so these strategic customers and partners, but we're also then replicating it across the verticals. If you think about in the enterprise space, our focus has been the focus on regulated market markets where security is essential. Real time, observe ability that can increase your security posture is a very important element. So taking the blueprints that we're taking into global financial services customers, the healthcare industry, the the education market on the federal market, then those are the industries that really care about, and I in regulated markets where we can take the blueprint that we have already built on an amplify across those customers. So there again includes alignment and a partnership with HP. We're working very closely that, while recognizing that we will be doing strategic elements only with partners like HP, we're also on boarding and getting certifications done with Dell because most enterprises have at least dual source vendors from a server, so that that is one aspect. The other aspect is working in a high touch model with the cloud customers and having the opportunity to deliver to them Ah, and onboard them from a production worthy perspective while taking that same blueprint and applying it to other cloud customers and other service provider edge providers that can take advantage of the similar capability. >>Yeah, um, I'm curious. Sony, you know, obviously, the cloud is a space that has been going through a lot of change and accelerating. You know, I'd say much faster than traditional networking did. So you know, curious what you see what you're hearing from customers when they talk about you know, their needs for your solution, what they're doing with multi cloud environment. What is that? That landscape you. And I guess we would love to hear a little bit about how you would compare and contrast yourself. The other solutions out there the one that comes to mind, of course, is you know, eight of us what they're doing with the Annapurna chip in there nitro offering as part of their out. >>You know, as I mentioned earlier, I think the cloud is pushing to the edge. There's a high demand for a lot of packet processing needs with these New Age applications. Customers want to build on and give the you know, we want to be in a position to provide through the democratization and open availability off our products to multiple cloud providers, our technology and as they are experiencing tremendous growth, they're seeking to build cloud with more capacity, with greater degree off security and services functionality. And the ability to process a lot of data at the edge is with millions of simultaneous connections happening at a very small footprint. And that's where we come in. The value that we are essentially providing who not only the existing cloud strategic partners but additional cloud customers we're taking into production this year is that we are enabling them to leapfrog the nitro technology on multiple, whether it is the ability to ah have predictably low latency on and consistently low jitter in the nanoseconds. That is the eight times superior than what a nitro can do today, or the ability to pack their toe process up to nine times more backend processes in the millions of on the ability to do it in a power footprint, which is almost 1/3 that of what you would need on AWS nitro, where they need five times more nitro elements than then we can with a single device, Um, or whether it is the ability now to handle not just power and latency, but millions off flows that can run simultaneously on maintaining the state of all of those and the power of the end, the ability to run multiple services. Uh, with security turned on at the same time are all elements that really differentiate us on. This technology is now readily available to all of us. >>All right, so I understand some of the technical issue items that you're stating there. What I'm curious about is when I look at out both, most customers don't really think about the night. It's that Amazon's providing an extension of their solution into my environment, and they manage everything and so you know, you can't talk about multi cloud environment without talking about Amazon is every customer almost everything right? More than one cloud in one of them is almost always Amazon, though. How does your solution fit into that whole discussion? And then? >>So I think that, you know, one of the things that becomes very important is that if I put my customer enterprise customer hat on, I want to be an enabling my private cloud the private cloud that I build. You have the ability to not just have the option to the port and Amazon cloud, but I typically already and minimal child and barn. So while Outpost and Nitro Nitrogen really enabling, are supposed to deliver those services on our customer's premises, it's only allowing that customer to be locked into one way off dealing with one public cloud company. But if I had to go and think about as I build out my hybrid cloud strategy as an enterprise customer, I want to have the same building blocks on the same policy models that are consistent with all the with the entire dress off cloud vendors that I'm dealing with. The bulk of our customers are essentially telling us I don't want to be locked into a single public cloud company from a hybrid strategy. I want to have the ability to drive a public, private cloud architect that is cloud like from a policy delivery perspective. But at the same time, I want to have the flexibility off deploying a multi cloud and BART, and what we would provide them is the consistency off that same policy model that you would only find in a public cloud with the freedom to not have to buy themselves or lock themselves up into a single public cloud costs. >>So your team, you said, over two decades of experience, there have been some global impacts that have happened during that you got together in 2000. 2001 was right there in front of you that the 2008 you know, down in there, though you're in 2020 obviously the global endemic, as you know, broad financial ripples. How's this impacting Dondo? How's that impacting your discussions with your partners and your customers? >>Well, you know, honestly, I would say that we, like everyone else, have been affected by the pandemic, and we pray that everyone recovers soon with minimum lost to themselves and their families. And this is something very personal. This is here. I feel very passionate about hoping that everybody comes through with this on and their families are all OK. That's all the most important thing in my mind now for us, from a pandemic perspective. What this has done is it has made us more resolute to continue to execute remotely to the best of our ability to meet our customers. Expectations. The advice that I would give to other startups is Keep your head down. Focus on the 80 20 rule, execute on 20% of the things that need to be done, that we'll have 80% of the impact to your business, including undeterred product execution. Stay close to your customers and your partners. Spend your cash judiciously. You know, be very careful on where you're spending your money to make it last. As long as you can ride this pandemic out and double down on being close to your partners and customers. Fortify your sales plans. Meet your customers where they are not where you thought they were, but where they really are and partner with them on this journey and partner with your supply chain. You're going to need that. So this is your time to really be a partner to them, as opposed to see how can you change them? No, no. The really partner with your supply chain Because you're gonna need that. >>Yeah, that's a very sound advice there, Sony. While we're talking advice that, you know, you're very successful career, I'm wondering what advice you would give the other women look at pursuing careers. In fact, specifically, if you know they wanted, you know, start a startup, be a founder, whether that in Silicon Valley or outside, what advice would >>you know? My advice would be to have an undeterred focus. Focus is extremely important. Look, I used to always remind me, Sony, when you're focused on two things, you're d focus. So focus on data. Focus, be driven. Believe in the vision that you have set out for yourself and your team on and keep your eye on the customer. I think in customers successful on your success. That's the message I would give. I would give that same message. My female and the male colleagues. >>Alright, well, we know that you and your team. Sony are very focused, so I'll give you the final word. Gives a little look forward if we go forward. You know, 18 to 24 months. What should we be expecting to see from PENSANDO and your solution? >>Well, in the next 18 to 24 months, we would like to meet and hopefully also exceed our customer's expectation in terms of product execution and the ramp off course. Profitability will be a very important aspect that we're going to keep a very close eye. I think it's too early to be thinking of an ideal, and our focus remains to be on customer success. We have been in the market for a little over. I was a little less than six months. Ah, with the product, September 2019 October 2019 is really when we launched the company on and, uh, the customer always is at the center of everything we do. So that's where we're gonna be focusing on product execution and ramp ramp off product, ramp off estimates. >>Well, so needy. And Dani, it's a pleasure to catch up with you. Thank you so much in the state. >>Thank you. You too. >>Alright. Be sure to check out the cube dot net for all the interviews, you can go see the launch videos that did at go back office in New York City from 2019. If you go to the cube dot net and many more interviews from Sony and her team, I'm stew Minimum. And thank you for watching you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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AI has the potential to profoundly change our lives with Dell Technologies. AI is easy to adopt, easy to manage and easy to scale. And there's nothing artificial about that. Yeah, yeah, from >>the Cube Studios in Palo Alto and Boston >>connecting with >>thought leaders all around the world. This is a cube conversation. Hi, I'm Stew Minimum. And welcome to this special launch with our friends at Dell Technologies. We're gonna be talking about AI and the reality of making artificial intelligence real happy to welcome to the program. Two of our Cube alumni Rob, depending 90. He's the senior vice president of server product management and very Pellegrino vice president, data centric workloads and solutions in high performance computing, both with Dell Technologies. Thank you both for joining thanks to you. So you know, is the industry we watch? You know, the AI has been this huge buzz word, but one of things I've actually liked about one of the differences about what I see when I listen to the vendor community talking about AI versus what I saw too much in the big data world is you know, it used to be, you know Oh, there was the opportunity. And data is so important. Yes, that's really But it was. It was a very wonky conversation. And the promise and the translation of what has been to the real world didn't necessarily always connect and We saw many of the big data solutions, you know, failed over time with AI on. And I've seen this in meetings from Dell talking about, you know, the business outcomes in general overall in i t. But you know how ai is helping make things real. So maybe we can start there for another product announcements and things we're gonna get into. But Robbie Interior talk to us a little bit about you know, the customers that you've been seeing in the impact that AI is having on their business. >>Sure, Teoh, I'll take us a job in it. A couple of things. For example, if you start looking at, uh, you know, the autonomous vehicles industry of the manufacturing industry where people are building better tools for anything they need to do on their manufacturing both. For example, uh, this is a good example of where that honors makers and stuff you've got Xeon ut It's actually a world war balcony. Now it is using our whole product suite right from the hardware and software to do multiple iterations off, ensuring that the software and the hardware come together pretty seamlessly and more importantly, ingesting, you know, probably tens of petabytes of data to ensure that we've got the right. They're training and gardens in place. So that's a great example of how we are helping some of our customers today in ensuring that we can really meet is really in terms of moving away from just a morning scenario in something that customers are able to use like today. >>Well, if I can have one more, Ah Yanai, one of our core and more partners than just customers in Italy in the energy sector have been been really, really driving innovation with us. We just deployed a pretty large 8000 accelerator cluster with them, which is the largest commercial cluster in the world. And where they're focusing on is the digital transformation and the development of energy sources. And it's really important not be an age. You know, the plan. It's not getting younger, and we have to be really careful about the type of energies that we utilize to do what we do every day on they put a lot of innovation. We've helped set up the right solution for them, and we'll talk some more about what they've done with that cluster. Later, during our chat, but it is one of the example that is tangible with the appointment that is being used to help there. >>Great. Well, we love starting with some of the customer stories. Really glad we're gonna be able to share some of those, you know, actual here from some of the customers a little bit later in this launch. But, Robbie, you know, maybe give us a little bit as to what you're hearing from customers. You know, the overall climate in AI. You know, obviously you know, so many challenges facing, you know, people today. But you know, specifically around ai, what are some of the hurdles that they might need to overcome Be able to make ai. Really? >>I think the two important pieces I can choose to number one as much as we talk about AI machine learning. One of the biggest challenges that customers have today is ensuring that they have the right amount and the right quality of data to go out and do the analytics percent. Because if you don't do it, it's giggle garbage in garbage out. So the one of the biggest challenges our customers have today is ensuring that they have the most pristine data to go back on, and that takes quite a bit of an effort. Number two. A lot of times, I think one of the challenges they also have is having the right skill set to go out and have the execution phase of the AI pod. You know, work done. And I think those are the two big challenges we hear off. And that doesn't seem to be changing in the very near term, given the very fact that nothing Forbes recently had an article that said that less than 15% off, our customers probably are using AI machine learning today so that talks to the challenges and the opportunities ahead for me. All right, >>So, Ravi, give us the news. Tell us the updates from Dell Technologies how you're helping customers with AI today, >>going back to one of the challenges, as I mentioned, which is not having the right skin set. One of the things we are doing at Dell Technologies is making sure that we provide them not just the product but also the ready solutions that we're working with. For example, Tier and his team. We're also working on validated and things are called reference architectures. The whole idea behind this is we want to take the guesswork out for our customers and actually go ahead and destroying things that we have already tested to ensure that the integration is right. There's rightsizing attributes, so they know exactly the kind of a product that would pick up our not worry about me in time and the resources needed you get to that particular location. So those are probably the two of the biggest things we're doing to help our customers make the right decision and execute seamlessly and on time. >>Excellent. So teary, maybe give us a little bit of a broader look as to, you know, Dell's part participation in the overall ecosystem when it comes to what's happening in AI on and you know why is this a unique time for what's happening in the in the industry? >>Yeah, I mean, I think we all live it. I mean, I'm right here in my home, and I'm trying to ensure that the business continues to operate, and it's important to make sure that we're also there for our customers, right? The fight against covered 19 is eyes changing what's happening around the quarantines, etcetera. So Dell, as a participant not only in the AI the world that we live in on enabling AI is also a participant in all of the community's s. So we've recently joined the covered 19 High Performance Computing Consortium on. We also made a lot of resources available to researchers and scientists leveraging AI in order to make progress towards you're and potentially the vaccine against Corbyn. 19 examples are we have our own supercomputers in the lab here in Austin, Texas, and we've given access to some of our partners. T. Gen. Is one example. The beginning of our chat I mentioned and I So not only did they have barely deport the cluster with us earlier this year that could 19 started hitting, so they've done what's the right thing to do for community and humanity is they made the resource available to scientists in Europe on tack just down the road here, which had the largest I can't make supercomputer that we deployed with them to. Ai's doing exactly the same thing. So this is one of the real examples that are very timely, and it's it's it's happening right now we hadn't planned for it. A booth there with our customers, the other pieces. This is probably going to be a trend, but healthcare is going through and version of data you mentioned in the beginning. You're talking about 2.3000 exabytes, about 3000 times the content of the Library of Congress. It's incredible, and that data is useless. I mean, it's great we can We can put that on our great ice on storage, but you can also see it as an opportunity to get business value out of it. That's going to be we're a lot more resource is with AI so a lot happening here. That's that's really if I can get into more of the science of it because it's healthcare, because it's the industry we see now that our family members at the M. Ware, part of the Dell Technologies Portfolio, are getting even more relevance in the discussion. The industry is based on virtualization, and the M ware is the number one virtualization solution for the industry. So now we're trying to weave in the reality in the I T environment with the new nodes of AI and data science and HPC. So you will see the VM Ware just added kubernetes control plane. This fear Andi were leveraging that to have a very flexible environment On one side, we can do some data science on the other side. We can go back to running some enterprise class hardware class software on top of it. So this is is great. And we're capitalizing on it with validates solutions, validated design on. And I think that's going to be adding a lot of ah power in the hands of our customers and always based on their feedback. And they asked back, >>Yeah, I may ask you just to build on that interesting comment that you made on we're actually looking at very shortly will be talking about how we're gonna have the ability to, for example, read or V Sphere and Allah servers begin. That essentially means that we're going to cut down the time our customers need to go ahead and deploy on their sites. >>Yeah, excellent. Definitely been, you know, very strong feedback from the community. We did videos around some of the B sphere seven launch, you know, theory. You know, we actually had done an interview with you. Ah, while back at your big lab, Jeff Frick. Otto, See the supercomputers behind what you were doing. Maybe bring us in a little bit inside as who? You know, some of the new pieces that help enable AI. You know, it often gets lost on the industry. You know, it's like, Oh, yeah, well, we've got the best hardware to accelerate or enable these kind of workloads. So, you know, bring us in its But what, You know, the engineering solution sets that are helping toe make this a reality >>of today. Yeah, and truly still you've been there. You've seen the engineers in the lab, and that's more than AI being real. That that is double real because we spend a lot of time analyzing workloads customer needs. We have a lot of PhD engineers in there, and what we're working on right now is kind of the next wave of HPC enablement Azaz. We all know the consumption model or the way that we want to have access to resources is evolving from something that is directly in front of us. 1 to 1 ratio to when virtualization became more prevalent. We had a one to many ratio on genes historically have been allocated on a per user. Or sometimes it is study modified view to have more than one user GP. But with the addition of big confusion to the VM our portfolio and be treated not being part of these fear. We're building up a GPU as a service solutions through a VM ware validated design that we are launching, and that's gonna give them flexibility. And the key here is flexibility. We have the ability, as you know, with the VM Ware environment, to bring in also some security, some flexibility through moving the workloads. And let's be honest with some ties into cloud models on, we have our own set of partners. We all know that the big players in the industry to But that's all about flexibility and giving our customers what they need and what they expect in the world. But really, >>Yeah, Ravi, I guess that brings us to ah, you know, one of the key pieces we need to look at here is how do we manage across all of these environments? Uh, and you know, how does AI fit into this whole discussion between what Dell and VM ware doing things like v Sphere, you know, put pulling in new workloads >>stew, actually a couple of things. So there's really nothing artificial about the real intelligence that comes through with all that foolish intelligence we're working out. And so one of the crucial things I think we need to, you know, ensure that we talk about is it's not just about the fact that it's a problem. So here are our stories there, but I think the crucial thing is we're looking at it from an end to end perspective from everything from ensuring that we have direct workstations, right servers, the storage, making sure that is well protected and all the way to working with an ecosystem of software renders. So first and foremost, that's the whole integration piece, making sure they realized people system. But more importantly, it's also ensuring that we help our customers by taking the guess work out again. I can't emphasize the fact that there are customers who are looking at different aliens off entry, for example, somebody will be looking at an F G. A. Everybody looking at GP use. API is probably, as you know, are great because they're price points and normal. Or should I say that our needs our lot lesser than the GP use? But on the flip side, there's a need for them to have a set of folks who can actually program right. It is why it's called the no programming programmable gate arrays of Saas fee programmable. My point being in all this, it's important that we actually provide dried end to end perspective, making sure that we're able to show the integration, show the value and also provide the options, because it's really not a cookie cutter approach of where you can take a particular solution and think that it will put the needs of every single customer. He doesn't even happen in the same industry, for that matter. So the flexibility that we provide all the way to the services is truly our attempt. At Dell Technologies, you get the entire gamut of solutions available for the customer to go out and pick and choose what says their needs the best. >>Alright, well, Ravi interior Thank you so much for the update. So we're gonna turn it over to actually hear from some of your customers. Talk about the power of ai. You're from their viewpoint, how real these solutions are becoming. Love the plan words there about, you know, enabling really artificial intelligence. Thanks so much for joining after the customers looking forward to the VM Ware discussion, we want to >>put robots into the world's dullest, deadliest and dirtiest jobs. We think that if we can have machines doing the work that put people at risk than we can allow people to do better work. Dell Technologies is the foundation for a lot of the >>work that we've done here. Every single piece of software that we developed is simulated dozens >>or hundreds of thousands of times. And having reliable compute infrastructure is critical for this. Yeah, yeah, A lot of technology has >>matured to actually do something really useful that can be used by non >>experts. We try to predict one system fails. We try to predict the >>business impatience things into images. On the end of the day, it's that >>now we have machines that learn how to speak a language from from zero. Yeah, everything >>we do really, at Epsilon centered around data and our ability >>to get the right message to >>the right person at the right >>time. We apply machine learning and artificial intelligence. So in real time you can adjust those campaigns to ensure that you're getting the most optimized message theme. >>It is a joint venture between Well, cars on the Amir are your progress is automated driving on Advanced Driver Assistance Systems Centre is really based on safety on how we can actually make lives better for you. Typically gets warned on distracted in cars. If you can take those kind of situations away, it will bring the accidents down about 70 to 80%. So what I appreciate it with Dell Technologies is the overall solution that they have to live in being able to deliver the full package. That has been a major differentiator compared to your competitors. >>Yeah. Yeah, alright, welcome back to help us dig into this discussion and happy to welcome to the program Chris Facade. He is the senior vice president and general manager of the B sphere business and just Simon, chief technologist for the High performance computing group, both of them with VM ware. Gentlemen, thanks so much for joining. Thank >>you for having us. >>All right, Krish. When vm Ware made the bit fusion acquisition. Everybody was looking the You know what this will do for space Force? GPU is we're talking about things like AI and ML. So bring us up to speed. As to you know, the news today is the what being worth doing with fusion. Yeah. >>Today we have a big announcement. I'm excited to announce that, you know, we're taking the next big step in the AI ML and more than application strategy. With the launch off bit fusion, we're just now being fully integrated with VCF. They're in black home, and we'll be releasing this very shortly to the market. As you said when we acquire institution A year ago, we had a showcase that's capable days as part of the animal event. And at that time we laid out a strategy that part of our institution as the cornerstone off our capabilities in the black home in the Iot space. Since then, we have had many customers take a look at the technology and we have had feedback from them as well as from partners and analysts. And the feedback has been tremendous. >>Excellent. Well, Chris, what does this then mean for customers? You know What's the value proposition that diffusion brings the VC? Yeah, >>if you look at our customers, they are in the midst of a big ah journey in digital transformation. And basically, what that means is customers are building a ton of applications and most of those applications some kind of data analytics or machine learning embedded in it. And what this is doing is that in the harbor and infrastructure industry, this is driving a lot of innovation. So you see the advent off a lot off specialized? Absolutely. There's custom a six FPs. And of course, the views being used to accelerate the special algorithms that these AI ml type applications need. And unfortunately, customer environment. Most of these specialized accelerators uh um bare metal kind of set up, but they're not taking advantage off optimization and everything that it brings to that. Also, with fusion launched today, we are essentially doing the accelerator space. What we need to compute several years ago and that is essentially bringing organization to the accelerators. But we take it one step further, which is, you know, we use the customers the ability to pull these accelerators and essentially going to be couple it from the server so you can have a pool of these accelerators sitting in the network. And customers are able to then target their workloads and share the accelerators get better utilization by a lot of past improvements and, in essence, have a smaller pool that they can use for a whole bunch of different applications across the enterprise. That is a huge angle for our customers. And that's the tremendous positive feedback that we get getting both from customers as well. >>Excellent. Well, I'm glad we've got Josh here to dig into some of the thesis before we get to you. They got Chris. Uh, part of this announcement is the partnership of VM Ware in Dell. So tell us about what the partnership is in the solutions for for this long. Yeah. >>We have been working with the Dell in the in the AI and ML space for a long time. We have ah, good partnership there. This just takes the partnership to the next level and we will have ah, execution solution. Support in some of the key. I am el targeted words like the sea for 1 40 the r 7 40 Those are the centers that would be partnering with them on and providing solutions. >>Excellent. Eso John. You know, we've watched for a long time. You know, various technologies. Oh, it's not a fit for virtualized environment. And then, you know, VM Ware does does what it does. Make sure you know, performance is there. And make sure all the options there bring us inside a little bit. You know what this solution means for leveraging GPS? Yeah. So actually, before I before us, answer that question. Let me say that the the fusion acquisition and the diffusion technology fits into a larger strategy at VM Ware around AI and ML. That I think matches pretty nicely the overall Dell strategy as well, in the sense that we are really focused on delivering AI ml capabilities or the ability for our customers to run their am ai and ml workloads from edge before the cloud. And that means running it on CPU or running it on hardware accelerators like like G fuse. Whatever is really required by the customer in this specific case, we're quite excited about using technology as it really allows us. As Chris was describing to extend our capabilities especially in the deep learning space where GPU accelerators are critically important. And so what this technology really brings to the table is the ability to, as Chris was outlining, to pull those resources those hardware resource together and then allow organizations to drive up the utilization of those GP Resource is through that pooling and also increase the degree of sharing that we support that supported for the customer. Okay, Jeff, take us in a little bit further as how you know the mechanisms of diffusion work. Sure, Yeah, that's a great question. So think of it this way. There there is a client component that we're using a server component. The server component is running on a machine that actually has the physical GPU is installed in it. The client machine, which is running the bit fusion client software, is where the user of the data scientist is actually running their machine machine learning application. But there's no GPU actually in that host. And what is happening with fusion technology is that it is essentially intercepting the cuda calls that are being made by that machine learning app, patience and promoting those protocols over to the bit fusion server and then injecting them into the local GPU on the server. So it's actually, you know, we call it into a position in the ability that remote these protocols, but it's actually much more sophisticated than that. There are a lot of underlying capabilities that are being deployed in terms of optimization who takes maximum advantage of the the networking link that sits between the client machine and the server machine. But given all of that, once we've done it with diffusion, it's now possible for the data scientist. Either consume multiple GP use for single GPU use or even fractional defuse across that Internet using the using technology. Okay, maybe it would help illustrate some of these technologies. If you got a couple of customers, Sure, so one example would be a retail customer. I'm thinking of who is. Actually it's ah, grocery chain. That is the flowing, ah, large number of video cameras into their to their stores in order to do things like, um, watch for pilfering, uh, identify when storage store shelves could be restocked and even looking for cases where, for example, maybe a customer has fallen down in denial on someone needs to go and help those multiple video streams and then multiple app patients that are being run that part are consuming the data from those video streams and doing analytics and ml on them would be perfectly suited for this type of environment where you would like to be ableto have these multiple independent applications running but having them be able to efficiently share the hardware resources of the GP use. Another example would be retailers who are deploying ml Howard Check out registers who helped reduce fraud customers who are buying, buying things with, uh, fake barcodes, for example. So in that case, you would not necessarily want to employ a single dedicated GPU for every single check out line. Instead, what you would prefer to do is have a full set of resource. Is that each inference operation that's occurring within each one of those check out lines could then consume collectively. That would be two examples of the use of this kind of pull in technology. Okay, great. So, Josh, a lot last question for you is this technology is this only for use and anything else. You can give us a little bit of a look forward to as to what we should be expecting from the big fusion technology. Yeah. So currently, the target is specifically NVIDIA GPU use with Cuda. The team, actually even prior to acquisition, had done some work on enablement of PJs and also had done some work on open CL, which is more open standard for a device that so what you will see over time is an expansion of the diffusion capabilities to embrace devices like PJs. The domain specific a six that first was referring to earlier will roll out over time. But we are starting with the NVIDIA GPU, which totally makes sense, since that is the primary hardware acceleration and for deep learning currently excellent. Well, John and Chris, thank you so much for the updates to the audience. If you're watching this live, please throwing the crowd chat and ask your questions. This faith, If you're watching this on demand, you can also go to crowdchat dot net slash make ai really to be able to see the conversation that we had. Thanks so much for joining. >>Thank you very much. >>Thank you. Managing your data center requires around the clock. 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