(Gentle music) >> Hello and welcome to the Cube here in Palo Alto, California. I'm John Furrier here, joined by Platform nine, Amelia Bell the Chief Revenue Officer, really digging into the conversation around Kubernetes Cloud native and the journey this next generation cloud. Amelia, thanks for coming in and joining me today. >> Thank you, thank you. Great pleasure to be here. >> So, CRO, chief Revenue Officer. So you're mainly in charge of serving the customers, making sure they're they're happy with the solution you guys have. >> That's right. >> And this market must be pretty exciting. >> Oh, it's very exciting and we are seeing a lot of new use cases coming up all the time. So part of my job is to obtain new customers but then of course, service our existing customers and then there's a constant evolution. Nothing is standing still right now. >> We've had all your co-founders on, on the show here and we've kind of talked about the trends and where you guys have come from, where you guys are going now. And it's interesting, if you look at the cloud native market, the scale is still huge. You seeing now this next wave of AI coming on, which I call that's the real web three in my mind in terms of like the next experiences really still points to data infrastructure scale. These next gen apps are coming. And so that's being built on the previous generation of DevSecOps. >> Right >> And so a lot of enterprises are having to grow up really, really fast >> Right. >> And figure out, okay, I got to have scale I got large scale data, I got horizontal scalability I got to apply machine learning now the new software engineering practice. And then, oh, by the way I got the Kubernetes clusters I got to manage >> Right. >> I got what's containers weather, the security problems. This is a really complicated but important area of build out right now in the marketplace. >> Right. What are you seeing? >> So it's, it's really important that the infrastructure is not the hindrance in these cases. And we, one of our customers is in fact a large AI company and we, I met with them yesterday and asked them, you know, why are you giving that to us? You've got really smart engineers. They can run and create the infrastructure, you know in a custom way that you want it. And they said, we've got to be core to our business. There's plenty of work to do just on delivering the AI capabilities, and there's plenty of work to do. We can't get bogged down in the infrastructure. We don't want to have people running the engine we want them driving the car. We want them creating value on top of that. so they can't have the infrastructure being the bottleneck for them. >> It's interesting, the AI companies, that's their value proposition to their customers is that they don't want the technical talent. >> Right. >> Working on, you know, non-differentiated heavy lifting things. >> Right. >> And automate those and scale it up. Can you talk about the problem that you guys are solving? Because there's a lot going on here. >> Yeah. >> You can look at all aspects of the DevOps scale. There's a lot of little problems, some big problems. What are you guys focusing on? What's the bullseye for Platform known? >> Okay, so the bullseye is that Kubernetes infrastructure is really hard, right? It's really hard to create and run. So we introduce a time to market efficiency, let's get this up and running and let's get you into production and and producing results for your customers fast. But at the same time, let's reduce your cost and complexity and increase reliability. So, >> And what are some of the things that they're having problems with that are breaking? Is it more of updates on code? Is it size of the, I mean clusters they have, what what is it more operational? What are the, what are some of the things that are that kind of get them to call you guys up? What's the main thing? >> It's the operations. It's all operations. So what, what happens is that if you have a look at Kubernetes platform it's made up of many, many components. And that's where it gets complex. It's not just Kubernetes. There's load balances, networking, there's observability. All these things have to operate together. And all the piece parts have to be upgraded and maintained. The integrations need to work, you need to have probes into the system to predict where problems can be coming. So the operational part of it is complex. So you need to be observing not only your clusters in the health of the clusters and the nodes and so on but the health of the platform itself. >> We're going to get Peter Frey in on here after I talk about some of the technical issues on deployments. But what's the, what's the big decision for the customer? Because there's kind of, there's two schools of thought. One is, I'm going to build my own and have my team build it or I'm going to go with a partner >> Right. >> Say platform nine, what's the trade offs there? Because it seems to me that, that there's a there's a certain area of where it's core competency but I can outsource it or partner with it and, and work with platform nine versus trying to take it all on internally >> Right. >> Of which requires more costs. So there's a, there's a line where you kind of like figure out that customers have to figure out that, that piece >> Right >> What do, what's your view on that? Because I'm hearing that more people are saying, hey I want to, I want to focus my people on solutions. The app side, not so much the ops >> Right. >> What's the trade off? How do you talk about? >> It's a really interesting question because most companies think they have two options. It's either a DIY option and they love that engineers love playing with the new and on the latest. And then they think the other option is going to cloud, public cloud and have it semi managed by them. And you get very different out of those. So in the DIY you get flexibility coz you get to choose your infrastructure but then you've got all the complexities of the DIY piece. You've got to not only choose all your components but you've got to keep them working. Now if you go to public cloud option, you lose flexibility because a lot of those choices are made for you but you gain agility because quite frankly it's really easy to spin up clusters. So what we are, is that in the middle we bring the agility and the flexibility because we bring the control plane that allows you to spin up clusters and and lifecycle manage them very quickly. So the agility's there but you can do it on the infrastructure of your choice. And in the DIY culture, one of the hardest things to do actually is to convince them they don't have to do it themselves. They can focus on higher value activities, which are more focused on delivering outcomes to their customers. >> So you provide the solution that allows them to feel like they're billing it themselves. >> Correct. >> And get these scale and speed and the efficiencies of the op side. So it's kind of the best of both worlds. It's not a full outsource. >> Right, right. >> You're bringing them in to make their jobs easier >> Right, That's right. So they get choices. >> Yeah. >> We, we, they get choices on how they build it and then we run and operate it for them. But they, they have all the observability. The benefit is that if we are managing their operations and most of our customers choose the managed operations piece of it, then they don't. If something goes wrong, we fix that and they, they they get told, oh, by the way, you had a problem. We've dealt with it. But in the other model is they've got to create all that observability themselves and they've got to get ahead of the issues themselves, and then they've got to raise tickets to whoever they need to raise tickets to. Whereas we have things like auto ticket generation and so on where, look, just drive the car let us worry about the engine and all of that. Let us deal with that. And you can choose whatever you want about the engine but let us manage it for you. So >> What do you, what do you say to folks out there that are may have a need for platform nine? What's the signals inside their company that they should be calling you guys up and, and leaning in with platform nine? >> Right. >> Is it more sprawl on on clusters? Is it more errors? Is it more tickets? Is it more hassle? What are some of the signs? If someone's watching this say, hey I have, I have an issue with this. >> I would say, if there's operational inefficiencies you can't get things to market fast enough because you are building this and it's just taking too long you're spending way too much time operationally on the infrastructure, then you are, you are not using your resources where they should best be used. And, and that is delivering services to the customer. >> Ed me Hora on for International Women's Day. And she was talking about how they love to solve complex problems on the engineering team at Platform nine. It's going to get pretty complex with the edge emerging >> Indeed >> and cloud native on-premises distributed computing. >> Indeed. >> essentially is what it is. That's kind of the core DNA of the team. >> Yeah. >> What, how does that translate to the customers? Because IT seems to be, okay, I have virtual machines were great, now I got to scale up and and convert over a transform to containers, Kubernetes >> Right. >> And then large scale app, app applications. >> Right, so when it comes to Edge it gets complex pretty fast because it's highly distributed. So how do you have standardization and governance across all the different edge locations? So what we bring into play is an ability to, um, at each edge, location eh, provision from bare metal up all the way up to the application. So let's say you have thousands of stores and you want to modernize those stores, you know rather than having a server being sent somewhere to have an image loaded up and then sent that and then you've got to send a technical guide to the store and you've got to implement it all there. Forget all that. That's just, that's just a ridiculous waste of time. So what we've done is we've created the ability where the server can just be sent to the store. You can get your barista or your chef just to plug it in, right? You don't need to send any technical person over there. As long as we have access to it, we get access to it and we provision the whole thing from bare metal up and then we can maintain it according to the standards that are needed and upgrade accordingly. And that gives standardization across all your stores or edge locations or 5G towers or whatever it is, distribution centers. And we can create nice governance and good standardization which allows them to innovate fast as well. >> So this is a real opportunity for you guys. >> Yeah. >> This is an advantage from your expertise. >> Yes. >> The edge piece, dropping in a box, self-provisioning. >> That's right. So yeah. >> Can people do that? What's the, >> No, actually it, it's, it's very difficult to do. I I, from my understanding, we're the only people that can provision it from bare metal up, right? So if anyone has a different story, I'd love to hear about that. But that's my understanding today. >> That's a good value purpose. So talk about the value of the customer. What kind of scope do you got? Can you scope some of the customer environments you have from >> Sure. >> From, you know, small to the large, how give us an idea of the order of magnitude of the >> Yeah, so, so small customers may have 20 clusters or something like that. 20 nodes, I beg your pardon. Our large customers, like we're we are scaling one particular distributed environment from 2200 nodes to 10,000 nodes by the end of this year and 26,000 nodes next year. We have another customer that's scaling up to 10,000 nodes this year as well. So we have some very large scale, but some smaller ones too. And we're, we're happy to work with either end. >> Okay, so pretend I'm a customer. I'm really, I got pain and Kubernetes like I want to, I can't hire enough people. I want to have my all focus. What's the pitch? >> Okay. So skill shortage is something that that everyone is facing right now. And if, if you've got skill shortage it's going to be really hard to hire if you are competing against really, you know, high salary you know, offering companies that are out there. So the pitch is, let us do it for you. We have, we have a team of excellent probably the best Kubernetes engineers on the planet. We will create your environment for you. We will get it up and running. We will allow you to, you know, run your applica, just consume the platform, we'll run it for you. We'll have SLAs and up times guaranteed and you can just focus on delivering the software and the value needed to your customers. >> What are some of the testimonials that you get from people? Just anecdotally, what do they say? Oh my god, you guys save. >> Yeah. >> Our butts. >> Yeah. >> This is amazing. We just shipped our code out much faster. >> Yeah. >> What are some of the things that you hear? >> So, so the number one thing I hear is it just works right? It's, we don't have to worry about it, it just works. So that, that's a really great feedback that we get. The other thing I hear is if we do have issues that your team are amazing, they they fix things, they're proactive, you know, they're we really enjoy working with you. So from, from that perspective, that's great. But the other side of it is we hear things like if we were to do that ourselves we would've taken six to 12 months to build that. And you guys have just saved us six to 12 months. The other thing that we hear is with the same two engineers we started on, you know, a hundred nodes we're now running thousands of nodes. We have not had to increase the size of the team and expand and scale exponentially. >> Awesome. What's next for you guys? What's on your, your plate? >> Yeah. >> With CRO, what's some of the goals you have? >> Yeah, so growth of course as a CRO, you don't get away from that. We've got some very exciting, actually, initiatives coming up. One of the things that we are seeing a lot of demand for and is, is in the area of virtualization bringing virtual machine, virtual virtual containers, sorry I'm saying that all wrong. Bringing virtual machine, the virtual machines onto the cloud native infrastructure using Kubernetes technology. So that provides a, an excellent stepping stone for those guys who are in the virtualization world. And they can't move to containers, they can't refactor their applications and workloads fast enough. So just bring your virtual machine and put it onto the container infrastructure. So we're seeing a lot of demand for that, because it provides an excellent stepping stone. Why not use Kubernetes to orchestrate virtual the virtual world? And then we've got some really interesting cost optimization. >> So a lot of migration kind of thinking around VMs and >> Oh, tremendous. The, the VM world is just massively bigger than the container world right now. So you can't ignore that. So we are providing basically the evolution, the the journey for the customers to utilize the greatest of technologies without having to do that in a, in a in a way that just breaks the bank and they can't get there fast enough. So we provide those stepping stones for them. Yeah. >> Amelia thank you for coming on. Sharing. >> Thank you. >> The update on platform nine. Congratulations on your big accounts you have and >> thank you. >> And the world could get more complex, which Means >> indeed >> have more customers. >> Thank you, thank you John. Appreciate that. Thank you. >> I'm John Furry. You're watching Platform nine and the Cube Conversations here. Thanks for watching. (gentle music)

(upbeat intro music) >> Hello everyone. Welcome to theCUBE's coverage of International Women's Day. I'm your host, John Furrier, here in Palo Alto, California. Got a special remote guest coming in. Teresa Carlson, President and Chief Commercial Officer at Flexport, theCUBE alumni, one of the first, let me go back to 2013, Teresa, former AWS. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >> Oh my gosh, almost 10 years. That is unbelievable. It's hard to believe so many years of theCUBE. I love it. >> It's been such a great honor to interview you and follow your career. You've had quite the impressive run, executive level woman in tech. You've done such an amazing job, not only in your career, but also helping other women. So I want to give you props to that before we get started. Thank you. >> Thank you, John. I, it's my, it's been my honor and privilege. >> Let's talk about Flexport. Tell us about your new role there and what it's all about. >> Well, I love it. I'm back working with another Amazonian, Dave Clark, who is our CEO of Flexport, and we are about 3,000 people strong globally in over 90 countries. We actually even have, we're represented in over 160 cities and with local governments and places around the world, which I think is super exciting. We have over 100 network partners and growing, and we are about empowering the global supply chain and trade and doing it in a very disruptive way with the use of platform technology that allows our customers to really have visibility and insight to what's going on. And it's a lot of fun. I'm learning new things, but there's a lot of technology in this as well, so I feel right at home. >> You quite have a knack from mastering growth, technology, and building out companies. So congratulations, and scaling them up too with the systems and processes. So I want to get into that. Let's get into your personal background. Then I want to get into the work you've done and are doing for empowering women in tech. What was your journey about, how did it all start? Like, I know you had a, you know, bumped into it, you went Microsoft, AWS. Take us through your career, how you got into tech, how it all happened. >> Well, I do like to give a shout out, John, to my roots and heritage, which was a speech and language pathologist. So I did start out in healthcare right out of, you know, university. I had an undergraduate and a master's degree. And I do tell everyone now, looking back at my career, I think it was super helpful for me because I learned a lot about human communication, and it has done me very well over the years to really try to understand what environments I'm in and what kind of individuals around the world culturally. So I'm really blessed that I had that opportunity to work in healthcare, and by the way, a shout out to all of our healthcare workers that has helped us get through almost three years of COVID and flu and neurovirus and everything else. So started out there and then kind of almost accidentally got into technology. My first small company I worked for was a company called Keyfile Corporation, which did workflow and document management out of Nashua, New Hampshire. And they were a Microsoft goal partner. And that is actually how I got into big tech world. We ran on exchange, for everybody who knows that term exchange, and we were a large small partner, but large in the world of exchange. And those were the days when you would, the late nineties, you would go and be in the same room with Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer. And I really fell in love with Microsoft back then. I thought to myself, wow, if I could work for a big tech company, I got to hear Bill on stage about saving, he would talk about saving the world. And guess what my next step was? I actually got a job at Microsoft, took a pay cut and a job downgrade. I tell this story all the time. Took like three downgrades in my role. I had been a SVP and went to a manager, and it's one of the best moves I ever made. And I shared that because I really didn't know the world of big tech, and I had to start from the ground up and relearn it. I did that, I just really loved that job. I was at Microsoft from 2000 to 2010, where I eventually ran all of the U.S. federal government business, which was a multi-billion dollar business. And then I had the great privilege of meeting an amazing man, Andy Jassy, who I thought was just unbelievable in his insights and knowledge and openness to understanding new markets. And we talked about government and how government needed the same great technology as every startup. And that led to me going to work for Andy in 2010 and starting up our worldwide public sector business. And I pinch myself some days because we went from two people, no offices, to the time I left we had over 10,000 people, billions in revenue, and 172 countries and had done really amazing work. I think changing the way public sector and government globally really thought about their use of technology and Cloud computing in general. And that kind of has been my career. You know, I was there till 2020, 21 and then did a small stint at Splunk, a small stint back at Microsoft doing a couple projects for Microsoft with CEO, Satya Nadella, who is also an another amazing CEO and leader. And then Dave called me, and I'm at Flexport, so I couldn't be more honored, John. I've just had such an amazing career working with amazing individuals. >> Yeah, I got to say the Amazon One well-documented, certainly by theCUBE and our coverage. We watched you rise and scale that thing. And like I said at a time, this will when we look back as a historic run because of the build out. I mean as a zero to massive billions at a historic time where government was transforming, I would say Microsoft had a good run there with Fed, but it was already established stuff. Federal business was like, you know, blocking and tackling. The Amazon was pure build out. So I have to ask you, what was your big learnings? Because one, you're a Seattle big tech company kind of entrepreneurial in the sense of you got, here's some working capital seed finance and go build that thing, and you're in DC and you're a woman. What did you learn? >> I learned that you really have to have a lot of grit. You, my mom and dad, these are kind of more southern roots words, but stick with itness, you know. you can't give up and no's not in your vocabulary. I found no is just another way to get to yes. That you have to figure out what are all the questions people are going to ask you. I learned to be very patient, and I think one of the things John, for us was our secret sauce was we said to ourselves, if we're going to do something super transformative and truly disruptive, like Cloud computing, which the government really had not utilized, we had to be patient. We had to answer all their questions, and we could not judge in any way what they were thinking because if we couldn't answer all those questions and prove out the capabilities of Cloud computing, we were not going to accomplish our goals. And I do give so much credit to all my colleagues there from everybody like Steve Schmidt who was there, who's still there, who's the CISO, and Charlie Bell and Peter DeSantis and the entire team there that just really helped build that business out. Without them, you know, we would've just, it was a team effort. And I think that's the thing I loved about it was it was not just sales, it was product, it was development, it was data center operations, it was legal, finance. Everybody really worked as a team and we were on board that we had to make a lot of changes in the government relations team. We had to go into Capitol Hill. We had to talk to them about the changes that were required and really get them to understand why Cloud computing could be such a transformative game changer for the way government operates globally. >> Well, I think the whole world and the tech world can appreciate your work and thank you later because you broke down those walls asking those questions. So great stuff. Now I got to say, you're in kind of a similar role at Flexport. Again, transformative supply chain, not new. Computing wasn't new when before Cloud came. Supply chain, not a new concept, is undergoing radical change and transformation. Online, software supply chain, hardware supply chain, supply chain in general, shipping. This is a big part of our economy and how life is working. Similar kind of thing going on, build out, growth, scale. >> It is, it's very much like that, John, I would say, it's, it's kind of a, the model with freight forwarding and supply chain is fairly, it's not as, there's a lot of technology utilized in this global supply chain world, but it's not integrated. You don't have a common operating picture of what you're doing in your global supply chain. You don't have easy access to the information and visibility. And that's really, you know, I was at a conference last week in LA, and it was, the themes were so similar about transparency, access to data and information, being able to act quickly, drive change, know what was happening. I was like, wow, this sounds familiar. Data, AI, machine learning, visibility, common operating picture. So it is very much the same kind of themes that you heard even with government. I do believe it's an industry that is going through transformation and Flexport has been a group that's come in and said, look, we have this amazing idea, number one to give access to everyone. We want every small business to every large business to every government around the world to be able to trade their goods, think about supply chain logistics in a very different way with information they need and want at their fingertips. So that's kind of thing one, but to apply that technology in a way that's very usable across all systems from an integration perspective. So it's kind of exciting. I used to tell this story years ago, John, and I don't think Michael Dell would mind that I tell this story. One of our first customers when I was at Keyfile Corporation was we did workflow and document management, and Dell was one of our customers. And I remember going out to visit them, and they had runners and they would run around, you know, they would run around the floor and do their orders, right, to get all those computers out the door. And when I think of global trade, in my mind I still see runners, you know, running around and I think that's moved to a very digital, right, world that all this stuff, you don't need people doing this. You have machines doing this now, and you have access to the information, and you know, we still have issues resulting from COVID where we have either an under-abundance or an over-abundance of our supply chain. We still have clogs in our shipping, in the shipping yards around the world. So we, and the ports, so we need to also, we still have some clearing to do. And that's the reason technology is important and will continue to be very important in this world of global trade. >> Yeah, great, great impact for change. I got to ask you about Flexport's inclusion, diversity, and equity programs. What do you got going on there? That's been a big conversation in the industry around keeping a focus on not making one way more than the other, but clearly every company, if they don't have a strong program, will be at a disadvantage. That's well reported by McKinsey and other top consultants, diverse workforces, inclusive, equitable, all perform better. What's Flexport's strategy and how are you guys supporting that in the workplace? >> Well, let me just start by saying really at the core of who I am, since the day I've started understanding that as an individual and a female leader, that I could have an impact. That the words I used, the actions I took, the information that I pulled together and had knowledge of could be meaningful. And I think each and every one of us is responsible to do what we can to make our workplace and the world a more diverse and inclusive place to live and work. And I've always enjoyed kind of the thought that, that I could help empower women around the world in the tech industry. Now I'm hoping to do my little part, John, in that in the supply chain and global trade business. And I would tell you at Flexport we have some amazing women. I'm so excited to get to know all. I've not been there that long yet, but I'm getting to know we have some, we have a very diverse leadership team between men and women at Dave's level. I have some unbelievable women on my team directly that I'm getting to know more, and I'm so impressed with what they're doing. And this is a very, you know, while this industry is different than the world I live in day to day, it's also has a lot of common themes to it. So, you know, for us, we're trying to approach every day by saying, let's make sure both our interviewing cycles, the jobs we feel, how we recruit people, how we put people out there on the platforms, that we have diversity and inclusion and all of that every day. And I can tell you from the top, from Dave and all of our leaders, we just had an offsite and we had a big conversation about this is something. It's a drum beat that we have to think about and live by every day and really check ourselves on a regular basis. But I do think there's so much more room for women in the world to do great things. And one of the, one of the areas, as you know very well, we lost a lot of women during COVID, who just left the workforce again. So we kind of went back unfortunately. So we have to now move forward and make sure that we are giving women the opportunity to have great jobs, have the flexibility they need as they build a family, and have a workplace environment that is trusted for them to come into every day. >> There's now clear visibility, at least in today's world, not withstanding some of the setbacks from COVID, that a young girl can look out in a company and see a path from entry level to the boardroom. That's a big change. A lot than even going back 10, 15, 20 years ago. What's your advice to the folks out there that are paying it forward? You see a lot of executive leaderships have a seat at the table. The board still underrepresented by most numbers, but at least you have now kind of this solidarity at the top, but a lot of people doing a lot more now than I've seen at the next levels down. So now you have this leveled approach. Is that something that you're seeing more of? And credit compare and contrast that to 20 years ago when you were, you know, rising through the ranks? What's different? >> Well, one of the main things, and I honestly do not think about it too much, but there were really no women. There were none. When I showed up in the meetings, I literally, it was me or not me at the table, but at the seat behind the table. The women just weren't in the room, and there were so many more barriers that we had to push through, and that has changed a lot. I mean globally that has changed a lot in the U.S. You know, if you look at just our U.S. House of Representatives and our U.S. Senate, we now have the increasing number of women. Even at leadership levels, you're seeing that change. You have a lot more women on boards than we ever thought we would ever represent. While we are not there, more female CEOs that I get an opportunity to see and talk to. Women starting companies, they do not see the barriers. And I will share, John, globally in the U.S. one of the things that I still see that we have that many other countries don't have, which I'm very proud of, women in the U.S. have a spirit about them that they just don't see the barriers in the same way. They believe that they can accomplish anything. I have two sons, I don't have daughters. I have nieces, and I'm hoping someday to have granddaughters. But I know that a lot of my friends who have granddaughters today talk about the boldness, the fortitude, that they believe that there's nothing they can't accomplish. And I think that's what what we have to instill in every little girl out there, that they can accomplish anything they want to. The world is theirs, and we need to not just do that in the U.S., but around the world. And it was always the thing that struck me when I did all my travels at AWS and now with Flexport, I'm traveling again quite a bit, is just the differences you see in the cultures around the world. And I remember even in the Middle East, how I started seeing it change. You've heard me talk a lot on this program about the fact in both Saudi and Bahrain, over 60% of the tech workers were females and most of them held the the hardest jobs, the security, the architecture, the engineering. But many of them did not hold leadership roles. And that is what we've got to change too. To your point, the middle, we want it to get bigger, but the top, we need to get bigger. We need to make sure women globally have opportunities to hold the most precious leadership roles and demonstrate their capabilities at the very top. But that's changed. And I would say the biggest difference is when we show up, we're actually evaluated properly for those kind of roles. We have a ways to go. But again, that part is really changing. >> Can you share, Teresa, first of all, that's great work you've done and I wan to give you props of that as well and all the work you do. I know you champion a lot of, you know, causes in in this area. One question that comes up a lot, I would love to get your opinion 'cause I think you can contribute heavily here is mentoring and sponsorship is huge, comes up all the time. What advice would you share to folks out there who were, I won't say apprehensive, but maybe nervous about how to do the networking and sponsorship and mentoring? It's not just mentoring, it's sponsorship too. What's your best practice? What advice would you give for the best way to handle that? >> Well yeah, and for the women out there, I would say on the mentorship side, I still see mentorship. Like, I don't think you can ever stop having mentorship. And I like to look at my mentors in different parts of my life because if you want to be a well-rounded person, you may have parts of your life every day that you think I'm doing a great job here and I definitely would like to do better there. Whether it's your spiritual life, your physical life, your work life, you know, your leisure life. But I mean there's, and there's parts of my leadership world that I still seek advice from as I try to do new things even in this world. And I tried some new things in between roles. I went out and asked the people that I respected the most. So I just would say for sure have different mentorships and don't be afraid to have that diversity. But if you have mentorships, the second important thing is show up with a real agenda and questions. Don't waste people's time. I'm very sensitive today. If you're, if you want a mentor, you show up and you use your time super effectively and be prepared for that. Sponsorship is a very different thing. And I don't believe we actually do that still in companies. We worked, thank goodness for my great HR team. When I was at AWS, we worked on a few sponsorship programs where for diversity in general, where we would nominate individuals in the company that we felt that weren't, that had a lot of opportunity for growth, but they just weren't getting a seat at the table. And we brought 'em to the table. And we actually kind of had a Chatham House rules where when they came into the meetings, they had a sponsor, not a mentor. They had a sponsor that was with them the full 18 months of this program. We would bring 'em into executive meetings. They would read docs, they could ask questions. We wanted them to be able to open up and ask crazy questions without, you know, feeling wow, I just couldn't answer this question in a normal environment or setting. And then we tried to make sure once they got through the program that we found jobs and support and other special projects that they could go do. But they still had that sponsor and that group of individuals that they'd gone through the program with, John, that they could keep going back to. And I remember sitting there and they asked me what I wanted to get out of the program, and I said two things. I want you to leave this program and say to yourself, I would've never had that experience if I hadn't gone through this program. I learned so much in 18 months. It would probably taken me five years to learn. And that it helped them in their career. The second thing I told them is I wanted them to go out and recruit individuals that look like them. I said, we need diversity, and unless you all feel that we are in an inclusive environment sponsoring all types of individuals to be part of this company, we're not going to get the job done. And they said, okay. And you know, but it was really one, it was very much about them. That we took a group of individuals that had high potential and a very diverse with diverse backgrounds, held 'em up, taught 'em things that gave them access. And two, selfishly I said, I want more of you in my business. Please help me. And I think those kind of things are helpful, and you have to be thoughtful about these kind of programs. And to me that's more sponsorship. I still have people reach out to me from years ago, you know, Microsoft saying, you were so good with me, can you give me a reference now? Can you talk to me about what I should be doing? And I try to, I'm not pray 100%, some things pray fall through the cracks, but I always try to make the time to talk to those individuals because for me, I am where I am today because I got some of the best advice from people like Don Byrne and Linda Zecker and Andy Jassy, who were very honest and upfront with me about my career. >> Awesome. Well, you got a passion for empowering women in tech, paying it forward, but you're quite accomplished and that's why we're so glad to have you on the program here. President and Chief Commercial Officer at Flexport. Obviously storied career and your other jobs, specifically Amazon I think, is historic in my mind. This next chapter looks like it's looking good right now. Final question for you, for the few minutes you have left. Tell us what you're up to at Flexport. What's your goals as President, Chief Commercial Officer? What are you trying to accomplish? Share a little bit, what's on your mind with your current job? >> Well, you kind of said it earlier. I think if I look at my own superpowers, I love customers, I love partners. I get my energy, John, from those interactions. So one is to come in and really help us build even a better world class enterprise global sales and marketing team. Really listen to our customers, think about how we interact with them, build the best executive programs we can, think about new ways that we can offer services to them and create new services. One of my favorite things about my career is I think if you're a business leader, it's your job to come back around and tell your product group and your services org what you're hearing from customers. That's how you can be so much more impactful, that you listen, you learn, and you deliver. So that's one big job. The second job for me, which I am so excited about, is that I have an amazing group called flexport.org under me. And flexport.org is doing amazing things around the world to help those in need. We just announced this new funding program for Tech for Refugees, which brings assistance to millions of people in Ukraine, Pakistan, the horn of Africa, and those who are affected by earthquakes. We just took supplies into Turkey and Syria, and Flexport, recently in fact, just did sent three air shipments to Turkey and Syria for these. And I think we did over a hundred trekking shipments to get earthquake relief. And as you can imagine, it was not easy to get into Syria. But you know, we're very active in the Ukraine, and we are, our goal for flexport.org, John, is to continue to work with our commercial customers and team up with them when they're trying to get supplies in to do that in a very cost effective, easy way, as quickly as we can. So that not-for-profit side of me that I'm so, I'm so happy. And you know, Ryan Peterson, who was our founder, this was his brainchild, and he's really taken this to the next level. So I'm honored to be able to pick that up and look for new ways to have impact around the world. And you know, I've always found that I think if you do things right with a company, you can have a beautiful combination of commercial-ity and giving. And I think Flexport does it in such an amazing and unique way. >> Well, the impact that they have with their system and their technology with logistics and shipping and supply chain is a channel for societal change. And I think that's a huge gift that you have that under your purview. So looking forward to finding out more about flexport.org. I can only imagine all the exciting things around sustainability, and we just had Mobile World Congress for Big Cube Broadcast, 5Gs right around the corner. I'm sure that's going to have a huge impact to your business. >> Well, for sure. And just on gas emissions, that's another thing that we are tracking gas, greenhouse gas emissions. And in fact we've already reduced more than 300,000 tons and supported over 600 organizations doing that. So that's a thing we're also trying to make sure that we're being climate aware and ensuring that we are doing the best job we can at that as well. And that was another thing I was honored to be able to do when we were at AWS, is to really cut out greenhouse gas emissions and really go global with our climate initiatives. >> Well Teresa, it's great to have you on. Security, data, 5G, sustainability, business transformation, AI all coming together to change the game. You're in another hot seat, hot roll, big wave. >> Well, John, it's an honor, and just thank you again for doing this and having women on and really representing us in a big way as we celebrate International Women's Day. >> I really appreciate it, it's super important. And these videos have impact, so we're going to do a lot more. And I appreciate your leadership to the industry and thank you so much for taking the time to contribute to our effort. Thank you, Teresa. >> Thank you. Thanks everybody. >> Teresa Carlson, the President and Chief Commercial Officer of Flexport. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. This is International Women's Day broadcast. Thanks for watching. (upbeat outro music)

(inspirational music) >> theCUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies. Creating technologies that drive human progress. (uplifting electronic music) (crowd chattering in background) >> Hi everybody. We're back at the Fira in Barcelona. Winding up our four day wall-to-wall coverage of MWC23 theCUBE has been thrilled to cover the telco transformation. Dave Vellante with Dave Nicholson. Really excited to have NTT on. Shahid Ahmed is the Group EVP of New Ventures and Innovation at NTT in from Chicago. Welcome to Barcelona. Welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you for having me over. >> So, really interesting title. You have, you know, people might not know NTT you know, huge Japan telco but a lot of other businesses, explain your business. >> So we do a lot of things. Most of us are known for our Docomo business in Japan. We have one of the largest wireless cellular carriers in the world. We serve most of Japan. Outside of Japan, we are B2B systems, integration, professional services company. So we offer managed services. We have data centers, we have undersea cables. We offer all kinds of outsourcing services. So we're a big company. >> So there's a narrative out there that says, you know, 5G, it's a lot of hype, not a lot of adoption. Nobody's ever going to make money at 5G. You have a different point of view, I understand. You're like leaning into 5G and you've actually got some traction there. Explain that. >> So 5G can be viewed from two lenses. One is just you and I using our cell phones and we get 5G coverage over it. And the other one is for businesses to use 5G, and we call that private 5G or enterprise grade 5G. Two very separate distinct things, but it is 5G in the end. Now the big debate here in Europe and US is how to monetize 5G. As a consumer, you and I are not going to pay extra for 5G. I mean, I haven't. I just expect the carrier to offer faster, cheaper services. And so would I pay extra? Not really. I just want a reliable network from my carrier. >> Paid up for the good camera though, didn't you? >> I did. (Dave and Dave laughing) >> I'm waiting for four cameras now. >> So the carriers are in this little bit of a pickle at the moment because they've just spent billions of dollars, not only on spectrum but the infrastructure needed to upgrade to 5G, yet nobody's willing to pay extra for that 5G service. >> Oh, right. >> So what do they do? And one idea is to look at enterprises, companies, industrial companies, manufacturing companies who want to build their own 5G networks to support their own use cases. And these use cases could be anything from automating the surveyor belt to cameras with 5G in it to AGVs. These are little carts running around warehouses picking up products and goods, but they have to be connected all the time. Wifi doesn't work all the time there. And so those businesses are willing to pay for 5G. So your question is, is there a business case for 5G? Yes. I don't think it's in the consumer side. I think it's in the business side. And that's where NTT is finding success. >> So you said, you know, how they going to make money, right? You very well described the telco dilemma. We heard earlier this week, you know, well, we could tax the OTT vendors, like Netflix of course shot back and said, "Well, we spent a lot of money on content. We're driving a lot of value. Why don't you help us pay for the content development?" Which is incredibly expensive. I think I heard we're going to tax the developers for API calls on the network. I'm not sure how well that's going to work out. Look at Twitter, you know, we'll see. And then yeah, there's the B2B piece. What's your take on, we heard the Orange CEO say, "We need help." You know, maybe implying we're going to tax the OTT vendors, but we're for net neutrality, which seems like it's completely counter-posed. What's your take on, you know, fair share in the network? >> Look, we've seen this debate unfold in the US for the last 10 years. >> Yeah. >> Tom Wheeler, the FCC chairman started that debate and he made great progress and open internet and net neutrality. The thing is that if you create a lane, a tollway, where some companies have to pay toll and others don't have to, you create an environment where the innovation could be stifled. Content providers may not appear on the scene anymore. And with everything happening around AI, we may see that backfire. So creating a toll for rich companies to be able to pay that toll and get on a faster speed internet, that may work some places may backfire in others. >> It's, you know, you're bringing up a great point. It's one of those sort of unintended consequences. You got to be be careful because the little guy gets crushed in that environment, and then what? Right? Then you stifle innovation. So, okay, so you're a fan of net neutrality. You think the balance that the US model, for a change, maybe the US got it right instead of like GDPR, who sort of informed the US on privacy, maybe the opposite on net neutrality. >> I think so. I mean, look, the way the US, particularly the FCC and the FTC has mandated these rules and regulation. I think it's a nice balance. FTC is all looking at big tech at the moment, but- >> Lena Khan wants to break up big tech. I mean for, you know, you big tech, boom, break 'em up, right? So, but that's, you know- >> That's a whole different story. >> Yeah. Right. We could talk about that too, if you want. >> Right. But I think that we have a balanced approach, a measured approach. Asking the content providers or the developers to pay for your innovative creative application that's on your phone, you know, that's asking for too much in my opinion. >> You know, I think you're right though. Government did do a good job with net neutrality in the US and, I mean, I'm just going to go my high horse for a second, so forgive me. >> Go for it. >> Market forces have always done a better job at adjudicating, you know, competition. Now, if a company's a monopoly, in my view they should be, you know, regulated, or at least penalized. Yeah, but generally speaking, you know the attack on big tech, I think is perhaps misplaced. I sat through, and the reason it's relevant to Mobile World Congress or MWC, is I sat through a Nokia presentation this week and they were talking about Bell Labs when United States broke up, you know, the US telcos, >> Yeah. >> Bell Labs was a gem in the US and now it's owned by Nokia. >> Yeah. >> Right? And so you got to be careful about, you know what you wish for with breaking up big tech. You got AI, you've got, you know, competition with China- >> Yeah, but the upside to breaking up Ma Bell was not just the baby Bells and maybe the stranded orphan asset of Bell Labs, but I would argue it led to innovation. I'm old enough to remember- >> I would say it made the US less competitive. >> I know. >> You were in junior high school, but I remember as an adult, having a rotary dial phone and having to pay for that access, and there was no such- >> Yeah, but they all came back together. The baby Bells are all, they got all acquired. And the cable company, it was no different. So I don't know, do you have a perspective of this? Because you know this better than I do. >> Well, I think look at Nokia, just they announced a whole new branding strategy and new brand. >> I like the brand. >> Yeah. And- >> It looks cool. >> But guess what? It's B2B oriented. >> (laughs) Yeah. >> It's no longer consumer, >> Right, yeah. >> because they felt that Nokia brand phone was sort of misleading towards a lot of business to business work that they do. And so they've oriented themselves to B2B. Look, my point is, the carriers and the service providers, network operators, and look, I'm a network operator, too, in Japan. We need to innovate ourselves. Nobody's stopping us from coming up with a content strategy. Nobody's stopping a carrier from building a interesting, new, over-the-top app. In fact, we have better control over that because we are closer to the customer. We need to innovate, we need to be more creative. I don't think taxing the little developer that's building a very innovative application is going to help in the long run. >> NTT Japan, what do they have a content play? I, sorry, I'm not familiar with it. Are they strong in content, or competitive like Netflix-like, or? >> We have relationships with them, and you remember i-mode? >> Yeah. Oh yeah, sure. >> Remember in the old days. I mean, that was a big hit. >> Yeah, yeah, you're right. >> Right? I mean, that was actually the original app marketplace. >> Right. >> And the application store. So, of course we've evolved from that and we should, and this is an evolution and we should look at it more positively instead of looking at ways to regulate it. We should let it prosper and let it see where- >> But why do you think that telcos generally have failed at content? I mean, AT&T is sort of the exception that proves the rule. I mean, they got some great properties, obviously, CNN and HBO, but generally it's viewed as a challenging asset and others have had to diversify or, you know, sell the assets. Why do you think that telcos have had such trouble there? >> Well, Comcast owns also a lot of content. >> Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. >> And I think, I think that is definitely a strategy that should be explored here in Europe. And I think that has been underexplored. I, in my opinion, I believe that every large carrier must have some sort of content strategy at some point, or else you are a pipe. >> Yeah. You lose touch with a customer. >> Yeah. And by the way, being a dump pipe is okay. >> No, it's a lucrative business. >> It's a good business. You just have to focus. And if you start to do a lot of ancillary things around it then you start to see the margins erode. But if you just focus on being a pipe, I think that's a very good business and it's very lucrative. Everybody wants bandwidth. There's insatiable demand for bandwidth all the time. >> Enjoy the monopoly, I say. >> Yeah, well, capital is like an organism in and of itself. It's going to seek a place where it can insert itself and grow. Do you think that the questions around fair share right now are having people wait in the wings to see what's going to happen? Because especially if I'm on the small end of creating content, creating services, and there's possibly a death blow to my fixed costs that could be coming down the line, I'm going to hold back and wait. Do you think that the answer is let's solve this sooner than later? What are your thoughts? >> I think in Europe the opinion has been always to go after the big tech. I mean, we've seen a lot of moves either through antitrust, or other means. >> Or the guillotine! >> That's right. (all chuckle) A guillotine. Yes. And I've heard those directly. I think, look, in the end, EU has to decide what's right for their constituents, the countries they operate, and the economy. Frankly, with where the economy is, you got recession, inflation pressures, a war, and who knows what else might come down the pipe. I would be very careful in messing with this equilibrium in this economy. Until at least we have gone through this inflation and recessionary pressure and see what happens. >> I, again, I think I come back to markets, ultimately, will adjudicate. I think what we're seeing with chatGPT is like a Netscape moment in some ways. And I can't predict what's going to happen, but I can predict that it's going to change the world. And there's going to be new disruptors that come about. That just, I don't think Amazon, Google, Facebook, Apple are going to rule the world forever. They're just, I guarantee they're not, you know. They'll make it through. But there's going to be some new companies. I think it might be open AI, might not be. Give us a plug for NTT at the show. What do you guys got going here? Really appreciate you coming on. >> Thank you. So, you know, we're showing off our private 5G network for enterprises, for businesses. We see this as a huge opportunities. If you look around here you've got Rohde & Schwarz, that's the industrial company. You got Airbus here. All the big industrial companies are here. Automotive companies and private 5G. 5G inside a factory, inside a hospital, a warehouse, a mining operation. That's where the dollars are. >> Is it a meaningful business for you today? >> It is. We just started this business only a couple of years ago. We're seeing amazing growth and I think there's a lot of good opportunities there. >> Shahid Ahmed, thanks so much for coming to theCUBE. It was great to have you. Really a pleasure. >> Thanks for having me over. Great questions. >> Oh, you're welcome. All right. For David Nicholson, Dave Vellante. We'll be back, right after this short break, from the Fira in Barcelona, MWC23. You're watching theCUBE. (uplifting electronic music)

(electronic music) >> Hi everybody, welcome back to Supercloud 2. I'm Dave Vellante with my co-host John Furrier. We're here at our tricked out Palo Alto studio. We're going live wall to wall all day. We're inserting a number of pre-recorded interviews, folks like Walmart. We just heard from Nir Zuk of Palo Alto Networks, and I'm really pleased to welcome in David Flynn. David Flynn, you may know as one of the people behind Fusion-io, completely changed the way in which people think about storing data, accessing data. David Flynn now the founder and CEO of a company called Hammerspace. David, good to see you, thanks for coming on. >> David: Good to see you too. >> And Dr. Nelu Mihai is the CEO and founder of Cloud of Clouds. He's actually built a Supercloud. We're going to get into that. Nelu, thanks for coming on. >> Thank you, Happy New Year. >> Yeah, Happy New Year. So I'm going to start right off with a little debate that's going on in the community if you guys would bring out this slide. So Bob Muglia early today, he gave a definition of Supercloud. He felt like we had to tighten ours up a little bit. He said a Supercloud is a platform, underscoring platform, that provides programmatically consistent services hosted on heterogeneous cloud providers. Now, Nelu, we have this shared doc, and you've been in there. You responded, you said, well, hold on. Supercloud really needs to be an architecture, or else we're going to have this stove pipe of stove pipes, really. And then you went on with more detail, what's the information model? What's the execution model? How are users going to interact with Supercloud? So I start with you, why architecture? The inference is that a platform, the platform provider's responsible for the architecture? Why does that not work in your view? >> No, the, it's a very interesting question. So whenever I think about platform, what's the connotation, you think about monolithic system? Yeah, I mean, I don't know whether it's true or or not, but there is this connotation of of monolithic. On the other hand, if you look at what's a problem right now with HyperClouds, from the customer perspective, they're very complex. There is a heterogeneous world where actually every single one of this HyperClouds has their own architecture. You need rocket scientists to build a cloud applications. Always there is this contradiction between cost and performance. They fight each other. And I'm quoting here a former friend of mine from Bell Labs who work at AWS who used to say "Cloud is cheap as long as you don't use it too much." (group chuckles) So clearly we need something that kind of plays from the principle point of view the role of an operating system, that seats on top of this heterogeneous HyperCloud, and there's nothing wrong by having these proprietary HyperClouds, think about processors, think about operating system and so on, so forth. But in order to build a system that is simple enough, I think we need to go deeper and understand. >> So the argument, the counterargument to that, David, is you'll never get there. You need a proprietary system to get to market sooner, to solve today's problem. Now I don't know where you stand on this platform versus architecture. I haven't asked you, but. >> I think there are aspects of both for sure. I mean it needs to be an architecture in the sense that it's broad based and open and so forth. But you know, platform, you could say as long as people can instantiate it themselves, on their own infrastructure, as long as it's something that can be deployed as, you know, software defined, you don't want the concept of platform being the monolith, you know, combined hardware and software. So it really depends on what you're focused on when you're saying platform, you know, I'd say as long as they software defined thing, to where it can literally run anywhere. I mean, because I really think what we're talking about here is the original concept of cloud computing. The ability to run anything anywhere, without having to care about the physical infrastructure. And what we have today is not that, the cloud today is a big mainframe in the sky, that just happens to be large enough that once you select which region, generally you have enough resources. But, you know, nowadays you don't even necessarily have enough resources in one region. and then you're kind of stuck. So we haven't really gotten to that utility model of computing. And you're also asked to rewrite your application, you know, to abandon the conveniences of high performance file access. You got to rewrite it to use object storage stuff. We have to get away from that. >> Okay, I want to just drill on that, 'cause I think I like that point about, there's not enough availability, but on the developer cloud, the original AWS premise was targeting developers, 'cause at that time, you have to provision a Sun box get a Cisco DSU/CSU, now you get on the cloud. But I think you're giving up the scale question, 'cause I think right now, scale is huge, enterprise grade versus cloud for developers. >> That's Right. >> Because I mean look at, Amazon, Azure, they got compute, they got storage, they got queuing, and some stuff. If you're doing a startup, you throw your app up there, localhost to cloud, no big deal. It's the scale thing that gets me- >> And you can tell by the fact that, in regions that are under high demand, right, like in London or LA, at least with the clients we work with in the median entertainment space, it costs twice as much for the exact same cloud instances that do the exact same amount of work, as somewhere out in rural Canada. So why is it you have such a cost differential, it has to do with that supply and demand, and the fact that the clouds aren't really the ability to run anything anywhere. Even within the same cloud vendor, you're stuck in a specific region. >> And that was never the original promise, right? I mean it was, we turned it into that. But the original promise was get rid of the heavy lifting of IT. >> Not have to run your own, yeah, exactly. >> And then it became, wow, okay I can run anywhere. And then you know, it's like web 2.0. You know people say why Supercloud, you and I talked about this, why do you need a name for Supercloud? It's like web 2.0. >> It's what Cloud was supposed to be. >> It's what cloud was supposed to be, (group laughing and talking) exactly, right. >> Cloud was supposed to be run anything anywhere, or at least that's what we took it as. But you're right, originally it was just, oh don't have to run your own infrastructure, and you can choose somebody else's infrastructure. >> And you did that >> But you're still bound to that. >> Dave: And People said I want more, right? >> But how do we go from here? >> That's, that's actually, that's a very good point, because indeed when the first HyperClouds were designed, were designed really focus on customers. I think Supercloud is an opportunity to design in the right way. Also having in mind the computer science rigor. And we should take advantage of that, because in fact actually, if cloud would've been designed properly from the beginning, probably wouldn't have needed Supercloud. >> David: You wouldn't have to have been asked to rewrite your application. >> That's correct. (group laughs) >> To use REST interfaces to your storage. >> Revisist history is always a good one. But look, cloud is great. I mean your point is cloud is a good thing. Don't hold it back. >> It is a very good thing. >> Let it continue. >> Let it go as as it is. >> Yeah, let that thing continue to grow. Don't impose restrictions on the cloud. Just refactor what you need to for scale or enterprise grade or availability. >> And you would agree with that, is that true or is it problem you're solving? >> Well yeah, I mean it, what the cloud is doing is absolutely necessary. What the public cloud vendors are doing is absolutely necessary. But what's been missing is how to provide a consistent interface, especially to persistent data. And have it be available across different regions, and across different clouds. 'cause data is a highly localized thing in current architecture. It only exists as rendered by the storage system that you put it in. Whether that's a legacy thing like a NetApp or an Isilon or even a cloud data service. It's localized to a specific region of the cloud in which you put that. We have to delocalize data, and provide a consistent interface to it across all sites. That's high performance, local access, but to global data. >> And so Walmart earlier today described their, what we call Supercloud, they call it the Walmart cloud native platform. And they use this triplet model. They have AWS and Azure, no, oh sorry, no AWS. They have Azure and GCP and then on-prem, where all the VMs live. When you, you know, probe, it turns out that it's only stateless in the cloud. (John laughs) So, the state stuff- >> Well let's just admit it, there is no such thing as stateless, because even the application binaries and libraries are state. >> Well I'm happy that I'm hearing that. >> Yeah, okay. >> Because actually I have a lot of debate (indistinct). If you think about no software running on a (indistinct) machine is stateless. >> David: Exactly. >> This is something that was- >> David: And that's data that needs to be distributed and provided consistently >> (indistinct) >> Across all the clouds, >> And actually, it's a nonsense, but- >> Dave: So it's an illusion, okay. (group talks over each other) >> (indistinct) you guys talk about stateless. >> Well, see, people make the confusion between state and persistent state, okay. Persistent state it's a different thing. State is a different thing. So, but anyway, I want to go back to your point, because there's a lot of debate here. People are talking about data, some people are talking about logic, some people are talking about networking. In my opinion is this triplet, which is data logic and connectivity, that has equal importance. And actually depending on the application, can have the center of gravity moving towards data, moving towards what I call execution units or workloads. And connectivity is actually the most important part of it. >> David: (indistinct). >> Some people are saying move the logic towards the data, some other people, and you are saying actually, that no, you have to build a distributed data mesh. What I'm saying is actually, you have to consider all these three variables, all these vector in order to decide, based on application, what's the most important. Because sometimes- >> John: So the application chooses >> That's correct. >> Well it it's what operating systems were in the past, was principally the thing that runs and manages the jobs, the job scheduler, and the thing that provides your persistent data (indistinct). >> Okay. So we finally got operating system into the equation, thank you. (group laughs) >> Nelu: I actually have a PhD in operating system. >> Cause what we're talking about is an operating system. So forget platform or architecture, it's an operating environment. Let's use it as a general term. >> All right. I think that's about it for me. >> All right, let's take (indistinct). Nelu, I want ask you quick, 'cause I want to give a, 'cause I believe it's an operating system. I think it's going to be a reset, refactored. You wrote to me, "The model of Supercloud has to be open theoretical, has to satisfy the rigors of computer science, and customer requirements." So unique to today, if the OS is going to be refactored, it's not going to be, may or may not be Red Hat or somebody else. This new OS, obviously requirements are for customers too but is what's the computer science that is needed? Where are we, what's the missing? Where's the science in this shift? It's not your standard OS it's not like an- (group talks over each other) >> I would beg to differ. >> (indistinct) truly an operation environment. But the, if you think about, and make analogies, what you need when you design a distributed system, well you need an information model, yeah. You need to figure out how the data is located and distributed. You need a model for the execution units, and you need a way to describe the interactions between all these objects. And it is my opinion that we need to go deeper and formalize these operations in order to make a step forward. And when we design Supercloud, and design something that is better than the current HyperClouds. And actually that is when we design something better, you make a system more efficient and it's going to be better from the cost point of view, from the performance point of view. But we need to add some math into all this customer focus centering and I really admire AWS and their executive team focusing on the customer. But now it's time to go back and see, if we apply some computer science, if you try to formalize to build a theoretical model of cloud, can we build a system that is better than existing ones? >> So David, how do you- >> this is what I'm saying. >> That's a good question >> How do You see the operating system of a, or operating environment of a decentralized cloud? >> Well I think it's layered. I mean we have operating systems that can run systems quite efficiently. Linux has sort of one in the data center, but we're talking about a layer on top of that. And I think we're seeing the emergence of that. For example, on the job scheduling side of things, Kubernetes makes a really good example. You know, you break the workload into the most granular units of compute, the containerized microservice, and then you use a declarative model to state what is needed and give the system the degrees of freedom that it can choose how to instantiate it. Because the thing about these distributed systems, is that the complexity explodes, right? Running a piece of hardware, running a single server is not a problem, even with all the many cores and everything like that. It's when you start adding in the networking, and making it so that you have many of them. And then when it's going across whole different data centers, you know, so, at that level the way you solve this is not manually (group laughs) and not procedurally. You have to change the language so it's intent based, it's a declarative model, and what you're stating is what is intended, and you're leaving it to more advanced techniques, like machine learning to decide how to instantiate that service across the cluster, which is what Kubernetes does, or how to instantiate the data across the diverse storage infrastructure. And that's what we do. >> So that's a very good point because actually what has been neglected with HyperClouds is really optimization and automation. But in order to be able to do both of these things, you need, I'm going back and I'm stubborn, you need to have a mathematical model, a theoretical model because what does automation mean? It means that we have to put machines to do the work instead of us, and machines work with what? Formula, with algorithms, they don't work with services. So I think Supercloud is an opportunity to underscore the importance of optimization and automation- >> Totally agree. >> In HyperCloud, and actually by doing that, we can also have an interesting connotation. We are also contributing to save our planet, because if you think right now. we're consuming a lot of energy on this HyperClouds and also all this AI applications, and I think we can do better and build the same kind of application using less energy. >> So yeah, great point, love that call out, the- you know, Dave and I always joke about the old, 'cause we're old, we talk about, you know, (Nelu Laughs) old history, OS/2 versus DOS, okay, OS's, OS/2 is silly better, first threaded OS, DOS never went away. So how does legacy play into this conversation? Because I buy the theoretical, I love the conversation. Okay, I think it's an OS, totally see it that way myself. What's the blocker? Is there a legacy that drags it back? Is the anchor dragging from legacy? Is there a DOS OS/2 moment? Is there an opportunity to flip the script? This is- >> I think that's a perfect example of why we need to support the existing interfaces, Operating Systems, real operating systems like Linux, understands how to present data, it's called a file system, block devices, things that that plumb in there. And by, you know, going to a REST interface and S3 and telling people they have to rewrite their applications, you can't even consume your application binaries that way, the OS doesn't know how to pull that sort of thing. So we, to get to cloud, to get to the ability to host massive numbers of tenants within a centralized infrastructure, you know, we abandoned these lower level interfaces to the OS and we have to go back to that. It's the reason why DOS ultimately won, is it had the momentum of the install base. We're seeing the same thing here. Whatever it is, it has to be a real file system and not a come down file system >> Nelu, what's your reaction, 'cause you're in the theoretical bandwagon. Let's get your reaction. >> No, I think it's a good, I'll give, you made a good analogy between OS/2 and DOS, but I'll go even farther saying, if you think about the evolution operating system didn't stop the evolution of underlying microprocessors, hardware, and so on and so forth. On the contrary, it was a catalyst for that. So because everybody could develop their own hardware, without worrying that the applications on top of operating system are going to modify. The same thing is going to happen with Supercloud. You're going to have the AWSs, you're going to have the Azure and the the GCP continue to evolve in their own way proprietary. But if we create on top of it the right interface >> The open, this is why open is important. >> That's correct, because actually you're going to see sometime ago, everybody was saying, remember venture capitals were saying, "AWS killed the world, nobody's going to come." Now you see what Oracle is doing, and then you're going to see other players. >> It's funny, Amazon's trying to be more like Microsoft. Microsoft's trying to be more like Amazon and Google- Oracle's just trying to say they have cloud. >> That's, that's correct, (group laughs) so, my point is, you're going to see a multiplication of this HyperClouds and cloud technology. So, the system has to be open in order to accommodate what it is and what is going to come. Okay, so it's open. >> So the the legacy- so legacy is an opportunity, not a blocker in your mind. And you see- >> That's correct, I think we should allow them to continue to to to be their own actually. But maybe you're going to find a way to connect with it. >> Amazon's the processor, and they're on the 80 80 80 right? >> That's correct. >> You're saying you love people trying to get put to work. >> That's a good analogy. >> But, performance levels you say good luck, right? >> Well yeah, we have to be able to take traditional applications, high performance applications, those that consume file system and persistent data. Those things have to be able to run anywhere. You need to be able to put, put them onto, you know, more elastic infrastructure. So, we have to actually get cloud to where it lives up to its billing. >> And that's what you're solving for, with Hammerspace, >> That's what we're solving for, making it possible- >> Give me the bumper sticker. >> Solving for how do you have massive quantities of unstructured file data? At the end of the day, all data ultimately is unstructured data. Have that persistent data available, across any data center, within any cloud, within any region on-prem, at the edge. And have not just the same APIs, but have the exact same data sets, and not sucked over a straw remote, but at extreme high performance, local access. So how do you have local access to globally shared distributed data? And that's what we're doing. We are orchestrating data globally across all different forms of storage infrastructure, so you have a consistent access at the highest performance levels, at the lowest level innate built into the OS, how to consume it as (indistinct) >> So are you going into the- all the clouds and natively building in there, or are you off cloud? >> So This is software that can run on cloud instances and provide high performance file within the cloud. It can take file data that's on-prem. Again, it's software, it can run in virtual or on physical servers. And it abstracts the data from the existing storage infrastructure, and makes the data visible and consumable and orchestratable across any of it. >> And what's the elevator pitch for Cloud of Cloud, give that too. >> Well, Cloud of Clouds creates a theoretical model of cloud, and it describes every single object in the cloud. Where is data, execution units, and connectivity, with one single class of very simple object. And I can, I can give you (indistinct) >> And the problem that solves is what? >> The problem that solves is, it creates this mathematical model that is necessary in order to do other interesting things, such as optimization, using sata engines, using automation, applying ML for instance. Or deep learning to automate all this clouds, if you think about in the industrial field, we know how to manage and automate huge plants. Why wouldn't it do the same thing in cloud? It's the same thing you- >> That's what you mean by theoretical model. >> Nelu: That's correct. >> Lay out the architecture, almost the bones of skeleton or something, or, and then- >> That's correct, and then on top of it you can actually build a platform, You can create your services, >> when you say math, you mean you put numbers to it, you kind of index it. >> You quantify this thing and you apply mathematical- It's really about, I can disclose this thing. It's really about describing the cloud as a knowledge graph for every single object in the graph for node, an edge is a vector. And then once you have this model, then you can apply the field theory, and linear algebra to do operation with these vectors. And it's, this creates a very interesting opportunity to let the math do this thing for us. >> Okay, so what happens with hyperscale, or it's like AWS in your model. >> So in, in my model actually, >> Are they happy with this, or they >> I'm very happy with that. >> Will they be happy with you? >> We create an interface to every single HyperCloud. We actually, we don't need to interface with the thousands of APIs, but you know, if we have the 80 20 rule, and we map these APIs into this graph, and then every single operation that is done in this graph is done from the beginning, in an optimized manner and also automation ready. >> That's going to be great. David, I want us to go back to you before we close real quick. You've had a lot of experience, multiple ventures on the front end. You talked to a lot of customers who've been innovating. Where are the classic (indistinct)? Cause you, you used to sell and invent product around the old school enterprises with storage, you know that that trajectory storage is still critical to store the data. Where's the classic enterprise grade mindset right now? Those customers that were buying, that are buying storage, they're in the cloud, they're lifting and shifting. They not yet put the throttle on DevOps. When they look at this Supercloud thing, Are they like a deer in the headlights, or are they like getting it? What's the, what's the classic enterprise look like? >> You're seeing people at different stages of adoption. Some folks are trying to get to the cloud, some folks are trying to repatriate from the cloud, because they've realized it's better to own than to rent when you use a lot of it. And so people are at very different stages of the journey. But the one thing that's constant is that there's always change. And the change here has to do with being able to change the location where you're doing your computing. So being able to support traditional workloads in the cloud, being able to run things at the edge, and being able to rationalize where the data ought to exist, and with a declarative model, intent-based, business objective-based, be able to swipe a mouse and have the data get redistributed and positioned across different vendors, across different clouds, that, we're seeing that as really top of mind right now, because everybody's at some point on this journey, trying to go somewhere, and it involves taking their data with them. (John laughs) >> Guys, great conversation. Thanks so much for coming on, for John, Dave. Stay tuned, we got a great analyst power panel coming right up. More from Palo Alto, Supercloud 2. Be right back. (bouncy music)

(upbeat music) >> Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome back to the CUBE's day one coverage of VMware Explorer 22, live from San Francisco. I'm Lisa Martin. Dave Nicholson is back with me. Welcome back to the set. We're pleased to welcome William Bell as our next guest. The executive vice president of products at Phoenix NAP. William, welcome to the CUBE. Welcome back to the CUBE. >> Thank you, thank you so much. Happy to be here. >> Talk to us a little, and the audience a little bit about Phoenix NAP. What is it that you guys do? Your history, mission, value prop, all that good stuff. >> Absolutely, yeah. So we're global infrastructures as a service company, foundationally, we are trying to build pure play infrastructure as a service, so that customers that want to adopt cloud infrastructure but maybe don't want to adopt platform as a service and really just, you know, program themselves to a specific API can have that cloud adoption without that vendor lock in of a specific platform service. And we're doing this in 17 regions around the globe today. Yeah, so it's just flexible, easy. That's where we're at. >> I like flexible and easy. >> Flexible and easy. >> You guys started back in Phoenix. Hence the name. Talk to us a little bit about the evolution of the company in the last decade. >> Yeah, 100%. We built a data center in Phoenix expecting that we could build the centralized network access point of Phoenix, Arizona. And I am super proud to say that we've done that. 41 carriers, all three hyperscalers in the building today, getting ready to expand. However, that's not the whole story, right. And what a lot of people don't know is we founded an infrastructure as a service company, it's called Secured Servers no longer exists, but we founded that company the same time and we built it up kind of sidecar to Phoenix NAP and then we merged all of those together to form this kind of global infrastructure platform that customers can consume. >> Talk to us about the relationship with VMware. Obviously, here we are at VMware Explore. There's about seven... We're hearing 7,000 to 10,000 people here. People are ready to be back to hear from VMware and it's partner ecosystem. >> Yeah, I mean, I think that we have this huge history with VMware that maybe a lot of people don't know. We were one of the first six, the SPPs in 2011 at the end of the original kind of data center, whatever, vCloud data center infrastructure thing that they did. And so early on, there was only 10 of us, 11 of us. And most of those names don't exist anymore. We're talking, Terramark, Blue Lock, some of these guys. Good companies, but they've been bought or whatnot. And here's plucky Phoenix NAP, still, you know, offering great VMware cloud services for customers around the globe. >> What are some of the big trends that you're seeing in the market today where customers are in this multi-cloud world? You know this... I love the theme of this event. The center of the multi-cloud universe. Customers are in that by default. How do you help them navigate that and really unlock the value of it? >> Yeah, I think for us, it's about helping customers understand what applications belong where. We're very, very big believers both in the right home. But if you drill down on that right home for right applicator or right application, right home, it's more about the infrastructure choices that you're making for that application leads to just super exciting optimizations, right. If you, as an example, have a large media streaming business and you park it in a public called hyperscaler and you just eat those egress fees, like it's a big deal. Right? And there are other ways to do that, right. If you need a... If your application needs to scale from zero cores to 15,000 cores for an hour, you know, there are hyperscalers for that, right. And people need to learn how to make that choice. Right app, right home, right infrastructure. And that's kind of what we help them do. >> It's interesting that you mentioned the concept of being a pure play in infrastructure as a service. >> Yeah. >> At some point in the past, people would have argued that infrastructure as a service only exists because SaaS isn't good enough yet. In other words, if there's a good enough SaaS application then you don't want IaaS because who wants to mess around with IaaS, infrastructures as a service. Do you have customers who look at what they're developing as so much a core of what their value proposition is that they want to own it? I mean, is that a driving factor? >> I would challenge to say that we're seeing almost every enterprise become a SaaS company. And when that transition happens, SaaS companies actually care a lot about the cost basis, efficiency, uptime of their application. And ultimately, while they don't want to be in the data center business anymore, it doesn't mean that they want to pay someone else to do things that they feel wholly competent in doing. And we're seeing this exciting transition of open source technologies, open source platforms becoming good enough that they don't actually have to manage a lot of things. They can do it in software and the hardware's kind of abstracted. But that actually, I would say is a boon for infrastructure as a service, as an independent thing. It's been minimized over the years, right. People talk about hyperscalers as being cloud infrastructure companies and they're not. They're cloud platform companies, right. And the infrastructure is high quality. It is easy to access and scale, right, but it's ultimately, if you're just using one of those hyperscalers for that infrastructure, building VMs and doing a bunch of things yourself, you're not getting the value out of that hyperscaler. And ultimately that infrastructure's very expensive if you look at it that way. >> So it's interesting because if you look at what infrastructure consists of, which is hardware and software-- >> Yeah. >> People who said, eh, IaaS as is just a bridge to a bright SaaS future, people also will make the argument that the hardware doesn't matter anymore. I imagine that you are doing a lot of optimization with both hardware and stuff like the VMware cloud stack that you deploy as a VCPP partner. >> Absolutely, yeah. >> So to talk about that. >> Absolutely. >> I mean, you agree. I mean, if I were to just pose a question to you, does hardware still matter? Does infrastructure still matter? >> Way more than people think. >> Well, there you go. So what are you doing in that arena, specifically with VCPP? >> Yeah, absolutely. And so I think a good example of that, right, so last VMworld in person, 2019, we showcased a piece of technology that we had been working with Intel on for about two years at the time which was Intel persistent memory DC, persistent memory. Right? And we launched the first VMware cloud offering to have Intel DC persistent memory onboard. So that customers with the VMs that needed that technology could leverage it with the integrations in vSphere 6.7 and ultimately in seven more, right. Now I do think that was maybe a swing and a miss technology potentially but we're going to see it come back. And that specialized infrastructure deployment is a big part of our business, right. Helping people identify, you know, this application, if you'd have this accelerator, this piece of infrastructure, this quality of network can be better, faster, cheaper, right. That kind of mentality of optimization matters a lot. And VMware plays a critical role in that because it still gives the customer the operational excellence that they need without having to do everything themselves, right. And our customers rely on that a lot from VMware to get that whole story, operationally efficient, easy to manage, automated. All those things make a lot of difference to our VMware customers. >> Speaking of customers, what are you hearing, if anything, from customers, VMware customers that are your joint customers about the Broadcom acquisition? Are they excited about it? Are they concerned about it? And how do you talk about that? >> Yeah, I mean, I think that everyone that's in the infrastructure business is doing business with Broadcom, all right. And we've had so many businesses that we've been engaged with that have ultimately been a acquiree. I can say that this one feels different only in the size of the acquisition. VMware carries so much weight. VMware's brand exceeds Broadcom's brand, in my opinion. And I think ultimately, I don't know anything that's not public, right-- >> Well, they rebranded. By the way, on the point of brand, they rebranded their software business, VMware. >> Yeah. I mean, that's what I was going to say. That was the word on the street. I don't know if there's beneficial. Is that a-- >> Well, that's been-- >> But that's the word, right? >> That's what they've said. Well, but when a Avago acquired Broadcom they said, "we'll call ourselves Broadcom." >> Absolutely. Why wouldn't you? >> So yeah. So I imagine that what's been reported is likely-- >> Likely. Yeah, I 100% agree. I think that makes a ton of sense and we can start to see even more great intellectual property in software. That's where, you know, all of these businesses, CA, Symantec, VMware and all of the acquisitions that VMware has made, it's a great software intellectual property platform and they're going to be able to get so much more value out of the leadership team that VMware has here, is going to make a world of difference to the Broadcom software team. Yeah, so I'm very excited, you know. >> It's a lot of announcements this morning, a lot of technical product announcements. What did you hear in that excites you about the evolution of VMware as well as the partnership and the value in it for your customers? >> You know, one of our fastest growing parts of our business is this metal as a service infrastructure business and doing very, very... Using very specific technologies to do very interesting things, makes a big difference in our world and for our customers. So anything that's like smartNICs, disaggregated hypervisor, accelerators as a first class citizen in VMware, all that stuff makes the Phoenix NAP story better. So I'm super excited about that, right. Yeah. >> Well, it's interesting because VCPP is not a term that people who are not insiders know of. What they know is that there are services available in hyperscale cloud providers where you can deploy VMware. Well, you know, VMware cloud stack. Well, you can deploy those VMware cloud stacks with you. >> Absolutely. >> In exactly the same manner. However, to your point, all of this talk about disaggregation of CPU, GPU, DPU, I would argue with it, you're in a better position to deploy that in an agile way than a hyperscale cloud provider would be and foremost, I'm not trying to-- >> No, yeah. >> I'm not angling for a job in your PR department. >> Come on in. >> But the idea that when you start talking about something like metal as a service, as an adjunct or adjacent to a standard deployment of a VMware cloud, it makes a lot of sense. >> Yeah. >> Because there are people who can't do everything within the confines of what the STDC-- >> Yes. >> Consists of. >> Absolutely. >> So, I mean... Am I on the right track? >> No, you are 100% hitting it. I think that that point you made about agility to deliver new technology, right, is a key moment in our kind of delivery every single year, right. As a new chip comes out, Intel chip or Accelerator or something like that, we are likely going to be first to market by six months potentially and possibly ever. Persistent memory never launched in public cloud in any capacity but we have customers running on it today that is providing extreme value for their business, right. When, you know, the discreet GPUs coming from the just announced Flex series GPU from Intel, you're likely not going to see them in public cloud hyperscalers quickly, right. Over time, absolutely. We'll have them day one. Isolate came out, you could get it in our metal as a service platform the morning it launched on demand, right. Those types of agility points, they're not... Because they're hyperscale by nature. If they can't hyperscale it, they're not doing it, right. And I think that that is a very key point. Now, as it comes in towards VMware, we're driving this intersection of building that VCF or VMware cloud foundation which is going to be a key point of the VMware ecosystem. As you see this transition to core based licensing and some of the other things that have been talked about, VMware cloud foundation is going to be the stack that they expect their customers to adopt and deliver. And the fact that we can automate that, deliver it instantaneously in a couple of hours to hardware that you don't need to own, into networks you don't need to manage, but yet you are still in charge, keys to the kingdom, ready to go, just like you're doing it in your own data center, that's the message that we're driving for. >> Can you share a customer example that you think really just shines a big flashlight on the value that you guys are delivering? >> We definitely, you know, we had the pleasure of working with Make-A-Wish foundation for the last seven years. And ultimately, you know, we feel very compelled that every time we help them do something unique, different or what not, save money, that money's going into helping some child that's in need, right. And so we've done so many things together. VMware has stepped up as the plate over the years, done so many things with them. We've sponsored stuff. We've done grants, we've done all kinds of things. The other thing I would say is we are helping the City of Hope and Translational Genomics Research Institute on sequencing single cell RNA so that they can fight COVID, so that they can build cure, well, not cures but build therapies for colon cancer and things like that. And so I think that, you know, this is a driving light for us internally is helping people through efficiency and change. And that's what we're looking for. We're looking for more stories like that. We're looking... If you have a need, we're looking for people to come to us and say, "this is my problem. This is what this looks like. Let us see if we can find a solution that's a little bit different, a little bit out of the box and doesn't have to change your business dramatically." Yeah. >> And who are you talking to within customers? Is this a C level conversation? >> Yeah, I mean, I would say that we would love it to be... I think most companies would love to have that, you know, CFO conversation with every single customer. I would say VPs of engineering, increasingly, especially as we become more API centric, those guys are driving a lot of those purchasing decisions. Five years ago, I would've said director of IT, like director of IT. Now today, it's like VP of engineering, usually software oriented folks looking to deliver some type of application on top of a piece of hardware or in a cloud, right. And those guys are, you know, I guess, that's even another point, VMware's doing so much work on the API side that they don't get any credit for. Terraform, Ansible, all these integrations, VMware doing so much in this area and they just don't get any credit for it ever, right. It's just like, VMware's the dinosaur and they're just not, right. But that's the thing that people think of today because of the hype of the hyperscaler. I think that's... Yeah. >> When you're in customer conversations, maybe with prospects, are you seeing more customers that have gone all in on a hyperscaler and are having issues and coming to you guys saying help, this is getting way too expensive? >> Yeah, I think it's the unexpected growth problem or even the expected growth problem where they just thought it would be okay, but they've suffered some type of competitive pressure that they've had to optimize for and they just didn't really expect it. And so, I think that increasingly we are finding organizations that quickly adopted public cloud. If they did a full digital transformation of their business and then transformation of their applications, a lot of them now feel very locked in because every application is just reliant on x hyperscaler forever, or they didn't transform anything and they just migrated and parked it. And the bills that are coming in are just like, whoa like, how is that possible? We are typically never recommending get out of the public cloud. We are just... It's not... If I say the right home for the right application, it's by default saying that there are right applications for hyperscalers. Parking your VMware environment that you just migrated to a hyperscaler, not the right application. You know, I would love you to be with me but if you want to do that, at least go to VMC on AWS or go to OCVS or GCVE or any of those. If that's going to go with a Google or an Amazon and that's just the mandate and you're going to move your applications, don't just move them into native. Move them into a VMware solution and then if you still want to make that journey, that full transformation, go ahead and make it. I would still argue that that's not the most efficient way but, you know, if you're going to do anything, don't just dump it all into cloud, the native hyperscaler stuff. >> Good advice. >> So what do typical implementations look like with you guys when you're moving on premises environments into going back to the VCPP, STDC model? >> Absolutely. Do you have people moving and then transforming and re-platforming? What does that look like? What's the typical-- >> Yeah. I mean, I do not believe that anybody has fully made up their mind if exactly where they want to be. I'm only going to be in this cloud. It's an in the close story, right. And so even when we get customers, you know, we firmly believe that the right place to just pick up and migrate is to a VCPP cloud. Better cost effectiveness, typically better technology, you know service, right. Better service, right. We've been part of VMware for 12 years. We love the technology behind VMC's, now AWS is fantastic, but it's still just infrastructure without any help at all right, right. They're going to be there to support their technology but they're not going to help you with the other stuff. We can do some of those things. And if it's not us, it's another VCPP provider that has that expertise that you might need. So yes, we help you quickly, easily migrate everything to a VMware cloud. And then you have a decision point to make. You're happy where you are, you are leveraging public cloud for a certain applications. You're leveraging VMware cloud offerings for the standard applications that you've been running for years. Do you transform them? Do you keep them? What do you do? All those decisions can be made later. But I stress that repurchasing all your hardware again, staying inside your colo and doing everything yourself, it is for me, it's like a company telling me they're going to build a data center for themselves, single tenant data center. Like no one's doing that, right. But there are more options out there than just I'm going to go to Azure, right. Think about it. Take the time, assess the landscape. And VMware cloud providers as a whole, all 17,000 of us or whatever across the globe, people don't know that group of individuals of the companies is the third or fourth potentially largest cloud in the world. Right? That's the power of the VMware cloud provider ecosystem. >> Last question for you as we wrap up here. Where can the audience go to learn more about Phoenix NAP and really start test driving with you guys? >> Absolutely. Well, if you come to phoenixnap.com, I guarantee you that we will re-target you and you can click on a banner later if you don't want to stay there. (Lisa laughs) But yeah, phoenixnap.com has all the information that you need. We also put out tons of helpful content. So if you're looking for anything technology oriented and you're just, "I want to upgrade to Ubuntu," you're likely going to end up on a phoenixnap.com website looking for that. And then you can find out more about what we do. >> Awesome, phoenixnap.com. William, thank you very much for joining Dave and me, talking about what you guys are doing, what you're enabling customers to achieve as the world continues to evolve at a very dynamic pace. We appreciate your insights. >> Absolutely, thank you so much >> For our guest and Dave Nicholson, I'm Lisa Martin. You've been watching the CUBE live from VMware Explorer, 2022. Dave and I will be joined by a guest consultant for our keynote wrap at the end of the day in just a few minutes. So stick around. (upbeat music)

>>Hello, everyone. Welcome to the cubes coverage here. New York city for AWS Amazon web services summit 2022. I'm John furrier, host of the cube with Dave ante. My co-host. We are breaking it down, getting an update on the ecosystem. As the GDP drops, inflations up gas prices up the enterprise continues to grow. We're seeing exceptional growth. We're here on the ground floor. Live at the Summit's packed house, 10,000 people. Eric Bradley's here. Chief STR at ETR, one of the premier enterprise research firms out there, partners with the cube and powers are breaking analysis that Dave does check that out as the hottest podcast in enterprise. Eric. Great to have you on the cube. Thanks for coming on. >>Thank you so much, John. I really appreciate the collaboration always. >>Yeah. Great stuff. Your data's amazing ETR folks watching check out ETR. They have a unique formula, very accurate. We love it. It's been moving the market. Congratulations. Let's talk about the market right now. This market is booming. Enterprise is the hottest thing, consumers kind of in the toilet. Okay. I said that all right, back out devices and, and, and consumer enterprise is still growing. And by the way, this first downturn, the history of the world where hyperscalers are on full pumping on all cylinders, which means they're still powering the revolution. >>Yeah, it's true. The hyperscalers were basically at this two sun system when Microsoft and an AWS first came around and everything was orbiting around it. And we're starting to see that sun cool off a little bit, but we're talking about a gradient here, right? When we say cool off, we're not talking to shutdown, it's still burning hot. That's for sure. And I can get it to some of the macro data in a minute, if that's all right. Or do you want me to go right? No, go go. Right. Yeah. So right now we just closed our most recent survey and that's macro and vendor specific. We had 1200 people talk to us on the macro side. And what we're seeing here is a cool down in spending. We originally had about 8.5% increase in budgets. That's cool down is 6.5 now, but I'll say with the doom and gloom and the headlines that we're seeing every day, 6.5% growth coming off of what we just did the last couple of years is still pretty fantastic as a backdrop. >>Okay. So you, you started to see John mentioned consumer. We saw that in Snowflake's earnings. For example, we, we certainly saw, you know, Walmart, other retailers, the FA Facebooks of the world where consumption was being dialed down, certain snowflake customers. Not necessarily, they didn't have mentioned any customers, but they were able to say, all right, we're gonna dial down, consumption this quarter, hold on until we saw some of that in snowflake results and other results. But at the same time, the rest of the industry is booming. But your data is showing softness within the fortune 500 for AWS, >>Not only AWS, but fortune 500 across the board. Okay. So going back to that larger macro data, the biggest drop in spending that we captured is fortune 500, which is surprising. But at the same time, these companies have a better purview into the economy. In general, they tend to see things further in advance. And we often remember they spend a lot of money, so they don't need to play catch up. They'll easily more easily be able to pump the brakes a little bit in the fortune 500. But to your point, when we get into the AWS data, the fortune 500 decrease seems to be hitting them a little bit more than it is Azure and GCP. I >>Mean, we're still talking about a huge business, right? >>I mean, they're catching up. I mean, Amazon has been transforming from owning the developer cloud startup cloud decade ago to really putting a dent on the enterprise as being number one cloud. And I still contest that they're number one by a long ways, but Azure kicking ass and catching up. Okay. You seeing people move to Azure, you got Charlie bell over there, Sean, by former Amazonians, Theresa Carlson, people are going over there, there there's lift over at Azure. >>There certainly is. >>Is there kinks in the arm or for AWS? There's >>A couple of kinks, but I think your point is really good. We need to take a second there. If you're talking about true pass or infrastructure is a service true cloud compute. I think AWS still is the powerhouse. And a lot of times the, the data gets a little muddied because Azure is really a hosted platform for applications. And you're not really sure where that line is drawn. And I think that's an important caveat to make, but based on the data, yes, we are seeing some kinks in the armor for AWS. Yes. Explain. So right now, a first of all caveat, 40% net score, which is our proprietary spending metric across the board. So we're not like raising any alarms here. It's still strong that said there are declines and there are declines pretty much across the board. The only spot we're not seeing a decline at all is in container, spend everything else is coming down specifically. We're seeing it come down in data analytics, data warehousing, and M I, which is a little bit of a concern because that, that rate of decline is not the same with Azure. >>Okay. So I gotta ask macro, I see the headwinds on the macro side, you pointed that out. Is there any insight into any underlying conditions that might be there on AWS or just a chronic kind of situational thing >>Right now? It seems situational. Other than that correlation between their big fortune 500, you know, audience and that being our biggest decline. The other aspect of the macro survey is we ask people, if you are planning to decline spend, how do you plan on doing it? And the number two answer is taking a look at our cloud spend and auditing it. So they're kind say, all right, you know, for the last 10 years it's been drunken, sail or spend, I >>Was gonna use that same line, you know, >>Cloud spend, just spend and we'll figure it out later, who cares? And then right now it's time to tighten the belts a little bit, >>But this is part of the allure of cloud at some point. Yeah. You, you could say, I'm gonna, I'm gonna dial it down. I'm gonna rein it in. So that's part of the reason why people go to the cloud. I want to, I wanna focus in on the data side of things and specifically the database. Let, just to give some context if, and correct me if I'm, I'm a little off here, but snowflake, which hot company, you know, on the planet, their net score was up around 80% consistently. It it's dropped down the last, you know, quarter, last survey to 60%. Yeah. So still highly, highly elevated, but that's relative to where Amazon is much larger, but you're saying they're coming down to the 40% level. Is that right? >>Yeah, they are. And I remember, you know, when I first started doing this 10 years ago, AWS at a 70%, you know, net score as well. So what's gonna happen over time is those adoptions are gonna get less and you're gonna see more flattening of spend, which ultimately is going to lower the score because we're looking for expansion rates. We wanna see adoption and increase. And when you see flattening a spend, it starts to contract a little bit. And you're right. Snowflake also was in the stratosphere that cooled off a little bit, but still, you know, very strong and AWS is coming down. I think the reason why it's so concerning is because a it's within the fortune 500 and their rate of decline is more than Azure right >>Now. Well, and, and one of the big trends you're seeing in database is this idea of converging function. In other words, bringing transaction and analytics right together at snowflake summit, they added the capability to handle transaction data, Mongo DB, which is largely mostly transactions added the capability in June to bring in analytic data. You see data bricks going from data engineering and data science now getting into snowflake space and analytics. So you're seeing that convergence Oracle is converging with my SQL heat wave and their core databases, couch base couch base is doing the same. Maria do virtually all these database companies are, are converging their platforms with the exception of AWS. AWS is still the right tool for the right job. So they've got Aurora, they've got RDS, they've got, you know, a dynamo DV, they've got red, they've got, you know, going on and on and on. And so the question everybody's asking is will that change? Will they start to sort of cross those swim lanes? We haven't seen it thus far. How is that affecting the data >>Performance? I mean, that's fantastic analysis. I think that's why we're seeing it because you have to be in the AWS ecosystem and they're really not playing nicely with others in the sandbox right now that now I will say, oh, Amazon's not playing nicely. Well, no, no. Simply to your point though, that there, the other ones are actually bringing in others at consolidating other different vendor types. And they're really not. You know, if you're in AWS, you need to stay within AWS. Now I will say their tools are fantastic. So if you do stay within AWS, they have a tool for every job they're advanced. And they're incredible. I think sometimes the complexity of their tools hurts them a little bit. Cause to your point earlier, AWS started as a developer-centric type of cloud. They have moved on to enterprise cloud and it's a little bit more business oriented, but their still roots are still DevOps friendly. And unless you're truly trained, AWS can be a little scary. >>So a common use case is I'm gonna be using Aurora for my transaction system and then I'm gonna ETL it into Redshift. Right. And, and I, now I have two data stores and I have two different sets of APIs and primitives two different teams of skills. And so that is probably causing some friction and complexity in the customer base that again, the question is, will they begin to expand some of those platforms to minimize some of that friction? >>Well, yeah, this is the question I wanted to ask on that point. So I've heard from people inside Amazon don't count out Redshift, we're making, we're catching up. I think that's my word, but they were kind of saying that right. Cuz Redshift is good, good database, but they're adding a lot more. So you got snowflake success. I think it's a little bit of a jealousy factor going on there within Redshift team, but then you got Azure synapse with the Synap product synapse. Yep. And then you got big query from Google big >>Query. Yep. >>What's the differentiation. What are you seeing for the data for the data warehouse or the data clouds that are out there for the customers? What's the data say, say to us? >>Yeah, unfortunately the data's showing that they're dropping a little bit whose day AWS is dropping a little bit now of their data products, Redshift and RDS are still the two highest of them, but they are starting to decline. Now I think one of the great data points that we have, we just closed the survey is we took a comparison of the legacy data. Now please forgive me for the word legacy. We're gonna anger a few people, but we Gotter data Oracle on-prem, we've got IBM. Some of those more legacy data warehouse type of names. When we look at our art survey takers that have them where their spend is going, that spends going to snowflake first, and then it's going to Google and then it's going to Microsoft Azure and, and AWS is actually declining in there. So when you talk about who's taking that legacy market share, it's not AWS right now. >>So legacy goes to legacy. So Microsoft, >>So, so let's work through in a little context because Redshift really was the first to take, you know, take the database to the cloud. And they did that by doing a one time license deal with par XL, which was an on-prem database. And then they re-engineered it, they did a fantastic job, but it was still engineered for on-prem. Then you along comes snowflake a couple years later and true cloud native, same thing with big query. Yep. True cloud native architecture. So they get a lot of props. Now what, what Amazon did, they took a page outta of the snowflake, for example, separating compute from storage. Now of course what's what, what Amazon did is actually not really completely separating like snowflake did they couldn't because of the architecture, they created a tearing system that you could dial down the compute. So little nuances like that. I understand. But at the end of the day, what we're seeing from snowflake is the gathering of an ecosystem in this true data cloud, bringing in different data types, they got to the public markets, data bricks was not able to get to the public markets. Yeah. And think is, is struggling >>And a 25 billion evaluation. >>Right. And so that's, that's gonna be dialed down, struggling somewhat from a go to market standpoint where snowflake has no troubles from a go to market. They are the masters at go to market. And so now they've got momentum. We talked to Frank sluman at the snowflake. He basically said, I'm not taking the foot off the gas, no way. Yeah. We, few of our large, you know, consumer customers dialed things down, but we're going balls to the >>Wall. Well, if you look at their show before you get in the numbers, you look at the two shows. Snowflake had their summit in person in Vegas. Data bricks has had their show in San Francisco. And if you compare the two shows, it's clear, who's winning snowflake is blew away from a, from a market standpoint. And we were at snowflake, but we weren't at data bricks, but there was really nothing online. I heard from sources that it was like less than 3000 people. So >>Snowflake was 1900 people in 2019, nearly 10,000. Yeah. In 2020, >>It's gonna be fun to sort of track that as a, as an odd caveat to say, okay, let's see what that growth is. Because in fairness, data, bricks, you know, a little bit younger, Snowflake's had a couple more years. So I'd be curious to see where they are. Their, their Lakehouse paradigm is interesting. >>Yeah. And I think it's >>And their product first company, yes. Their go to market might be a little bit weak from our analysis, but that, but they'll figure it out. >>CEO's pretty smart. But I think it's worth pointing out. It's like two different philosophies, right? It is. Snowflake is come into our data cloud. That's their proprietary environment. They're the, they think of the iPhone, right? End to end. We, we guarantee it's all gonna work. And we're in control. Snowflake is like, Hey, open source, no, bring in data bricks. I mean data bricks, open source, bring in this tool that too, now you are seeing snowflake capitulate a little bit. They announce, for instance, Apache iceberg support at their, at the snowflake summit. So they're tipping their cap to open source. But at the end of the day, they're gonna market and sell the fact that it's gonna run better in native snowflake. Whereas data bricks, they're coming at it from much more of an open source, a mantra. So that's gonna, you know, we'll see who look at, you had windows and you had apple, >>You got, they both want, you got Cal and you got Stanford. >>They both >>Consider, I don't think it's actually there yet. I, I find the more interesting dynamic right now is between AWS and snowflake. It's really a fun tit for tat, right? I mean, AWS has the S three and then, you know, snowflake comes right on top of it and announces R two, we're gonna do one letter, one number better than you. They just seem to have this really interesting dynamic. And I, and it is SLT and no one's betting against him. I mean, this guy's fantastic. So, and he hasn't used his war chest yet. He's still sitting on all that money that he raised to your point, that data bricks five, their timing just was a little off >>5 billion in >>Capital when Slootman hasn't used that money yet. So what's he gonna do? What can he do when he turns that on? He finds the right. >>They're making some acquisitions. They did the stream lit acquisitions stream. >>Fantastic >>Problem. With data bricks, their valuation is underwater. Yes. So they're recruiting and their MNAs. Yes. In the toilet, they cannot make the moves because they don't have the currency until they refactor the multiple, let the, this market settle. I I'm, I'm really nervous that they have to over factor the >>Valuation. Having said that to your point, Eric, the lake house architecture is definitely gaining traction. When you talk to practitioners, they're all saying, yeah, we're building data lakes, we're building lake houses. You know, it's a much, much smaller market than the enterprise data warehouse. But nonetheless, when you talk to practitioners that are actually doing things like self serve data, they're building data lakes and you know, snow. I mean, data bricks is right there. And as a clear leader in, in ML and AI and they're ahead of snowflake, right. >>And I was gonna say, that's the thing with data bricks. You know, you're getting that analytics at M I built into it. >>You know, what's ironic is I remember talking to Matt Carroll, who's CEO of auDA like four or five years ago. He came into the office in ma bro. And we were in temporary space and we were talking about how there's this new workload emerging, which combines AWS for cloud infrastructure, snowflake for the simple data warehouse and data bricks for the ML AI, and then all now all of a sudden you see data bricks yeah. And snowflake going at it. I think, you know, to your point about the competition between AWS and snowflake, here's what I think, I think the Redshift team is, you know, doesn't like snowflake, right. But I think the EC two team loves it. Loves it. Exactly. So, so I think snowflake is driving a lot of, >>Yeah. To John's point, there is plenty to go around. And I think I saw just the other day, I saw somebody say less than 40% of true global 2000 organizations believe that they're at real time data analytics right now. They're not really there yet. Yeah. Think about how much runway is left and how many tools you need to get to real time streaming use cases. It's complex. It's not easy. >>It's gonna be a product value market to me, snowflake in data bricks. They're not going away. Right. They're winning architectures. Yeah. In the cloud, what data bricks did would spark and took over the Haddo market. Yeah. To your point. Now that big data, market's got two players, in my opinion, snow flicking data, bricks converging. Well, Redshift is sitting there behind the curtain, their wild card. Yeah. They're wild card, Dave. >>Okay. I'm gonna give one more wild card, which is the edge. Sure. Okay. And that's something that when you talk about real time analytics and AI referencing at the edge, there aren't a lot of database companies in a position to do that. You know, Amazon trying to put outposts out there. I think it runs RDS. I don't think it runs any other database. Right. Snowflake really doesn't have a strong edge strategy when I'm talking the far edge, the tiny edge. >>I think, I think that's gonna be HPE or Dell's gonna own the outpost market. >>I think you're right. I'll come back to that. Couch base is an interesting company to watch with Capella Mongo. DB really doesn't have a far edge strategy at this point, but couch base does. And that's one to watch. They're doing some really interesting things there. And I think >>That, but they have to leapfrog bongo in my >>Opinion. Yeah. But there's a new architecture emerging at the edge and it's gonna take a number of years to develop, but it could eventually from an economic standpoint, seep back into the enterprise arm base, low end, take a look at what couch base is >>Doing. They hired an Amazon guard system. They have to leapfrog though. They need to, they can't incrementally who's they who >>Couch >>Base needs to needs to make a big move in >>Leap frog. Well, think they're trying to, that's what Capella is all about was not only, you know, their version of Atlas bringing to the cloud couch base, but it's also stretching it out to the edge and bringing converged database analytics >>Real quick on the numbers. Any data on CloudFlare, >>I was, I've been sitting here trying to get the word CloudFlare out my mouth the whole time you guys were talking, >>Is this another that's innovated in the ecosystem. So >>Platform, it was really simple for them early on, right? They're gonna get that edge network out there and they're gonna steal share from Akamai. Then they started doing exactly what Akamai did. We're gonna start rolling out some security. Their security is fantastic. Maybe some practitioners are saying a little bit too much, cuz they're not focused on one thing or another, but they are doing extremely well. And now they're out there in the cloud as well. You >>Got S3 compare. They got two, they got an S3 competitor. >>Exactly. So when I'm listening to you guys talk about, you know, a, a couch base I'm like, wow, those two would just be an absolute fantastic, you know, combination between the two of them. You mean >>CloudFlare >>Couch base. Yeah. >>I mean you got S3 alternative, right? You got a Mongo alternative basically in my >>Opinion. And you're going and you got the edge and you got the edge >>Network with security security, interesting dynamic. This brings up the super cloud date. I wanna talk about Supercloud because we're seeing a trend on we're reporting this since last year that basically people don't have to spend the CapEx to be cloud scale. And you're seeing Amazon enable that, but snowflake has become a super cloud. They're on AWS. Now they're on Azure. Why not tan expansion expand the market? Why not get that? And then it'll be on Google next, all these marketplaces. So the emergence of this super cloud, and then the ability to make that across a substrate across multiple clouds is a strategy we're seeing. What do you, what do you think? >>Well, honestly, I'm gonna be really Frank here. The, everything I know about the super cloud I know from this guy. So I've been following his lead on this and I'm looking forward to you guys doing that conference and that summit coming up from a data perspective. I think what you're saying is spot on though, cuz those are the areas we're seeing expansion in without a doubt. >>I think, you know, when you talk about things like super cloud and you talk about things like metaverse, there's, there's a, there, there look every 15 or 20 years or so this industry reinvents itself and a new disruption comes out and you've got the internet, you've got the cloud, you've got an AI and VR layer. You've got, you've got machine intelligence. You've got now gaming. There's a new matrix, emerging, super cloud. Metaverse there's something happening out there here. That's not just your, your father's SAS or is or pass. Well, >>No, it's also the spend too. Right? So if I'm a company like say capital one or Goldman Sachs, my it spend has traditionally been massive every year. Yes. It's basically like tons of CapEx comes the cloud. It's an operating expense. Wait a minute, Amazon has all the CapEx. So I'm not gonna dial down my budget. I want a competitive advantage. So next thing they know they have a super cloud by default because they just pivoted their, it spend into new capabilities that they then can sell to the market in FinTech makes total sense. >>Right? They're building out a digital platform >>That would, that was not possible. Pre-cloud >>No, it wasn't cause you weren't gonna go put all that money into CapEx expenditure to build that out. Not knowing whether or not the market was there, but the scalability, the ability to spend, reduce and be flexible with it really changes that paradigm entire. >>So we're looking at this market now thinking about, okay, it might be Greenfield in every vertical. It might have a power law where you have a head of the long tail. That's a player like a capital one, an insurance. It could be Liberty mutual or mass mutual that has so much it and capital that they're now gonna scale it into a super cloud >>And they have data >>And they have the data tools >>And the tools. And they're gonna bring that to their constituents. Yes, yes. And scale it using >>Cloud. So that means they can then service the entire vertical as a service provider. >>And the industry cloud is becoming bigger and bigger and bigger. I mean, that's really a way that people are delivering to market. So >>Remember in the early days of cloud, all the banks thought they could build their own cloud. Yeah. Yep. Well actually it's come full circle. They're like, we can actually build a cloud on top of the cloud. >>Right. And by the way, they can have a private cloud in their super cloud. Exactly. >>And you know, it's interesting cause we're talking about financial services insurance, all the people we know spend money in our macro survey. Do you know the, the sector that's spending the most right now? It's gonna shock you energy utilities. Oh yeah. I was gonna, the energy utilities industry right now is the one spending the most money I saw largely cuz they're playing ketchup. But also because they don't have these type of things for their consumers, they need the consumer app. They need to be able to do that delivery. They need to be able to do metrics. And they're the they're, they're the one spending right >>Now it's an arms race, but the, the vector shifts to value creation. So >>It's it just goes back to your post when it was a 2012, the trillion dollar baby. Yeah. It's a multi-trillion dollar baby that they, >>The world was going my chassis post on Forbes, headline trillion dollar baby 2012. You know, I should add it's happening. That's >>On the end. Yeah, exactly. >>Trillions of babies, Eric. Great to have you on the key. >>Thank you so much guys. >>Great to bring the data. Thanks for sharing. Check out ETR. If you're into the enterprise, want to know what's going on. They have a unique approach, very accurate in their survey data. They got a great market basket of, of, of, of, of data questions and people and community. Check it out. Thanks for coming on and sharing with. >>Thank you guys. Always enjoy. >>We'll be back with more coverage here in the cube in New York city live at summit 22. I'm John fur with Dave ante. We'll be right back.

(upbeat music) >> We're back at the ARIA in Las Vegas you're watching theCUBE's coverage of Veeamon 2022 live in person, but there's a big hybrid event going on. Close to 40,000 people watching online. This is the CEO segment. The newly minted CEO Anand Eswaran is here. And it's great to see you. Thanks for coming on. First time on theCUBE. >> Yeah, first time on theCUBE, excited to be here. Newly minted, those words, I haven't heard those for a long time. But thank you for the warm introduction, Dave. >> So why Veeam? What did you see that attracted you to Veeam? You have a great career, awesome resume. Why Veeam? >> A lot of different things. You know, it started with when I spent a good bit of time... I spent months with, you know, Insight, with Bill Largent who is now the chair of the board. And for me a few things, one, it started with the company culture. I absolutely loved... I spent time with our engineering team that it's an innovation-focused culture. It's an engineering-focused culture, which is so critical to any software company. And so that was the first place. And I spent a good bit of time with customers, reading, research, you know, brilliant products, always innovating. You know, even though it's a category you would think is fairly mature. I mean, when Veeam for example, did instant recovery. I mean, that was extreme innovation. And so that was the first thing which was appealing. The second thing was, you know, yes, we've reached a billion, but it still has that, you know, feel of a start up. It still has that feel of a... Jeff Bezos says this best, "A day one culture." Which is super critical, you know, we scale but you don't want to lose your soul and what made you special in the first place. And then you come down to the rest of the stuff, it's an execution machine. You know, it's an absolutely interesting category, especially in the day and the world we live in right now. You know, the proliferation of bad actors, security, backup, recovery, you know, everything you... Ransomware is starting to become you know, a meaningful threat to every company. So many different things coming together. This category is an interesting place. But that's not all, I feel that we are going to see this category evolve and shape very differently. You're going to see adjacencies coming and you're going to see in a couple of years or three years you're not going to just look at this and say, "Hey, it's backup and recovery." And so it's an opportunity to shape what is going to be a very important inflection point in this whole space. So a whole bunch of things. Excited about it. >> So flip question, why Anand? What did Insight see and the board see? What do you see as your key skills that they wanted here? Go after that opportunity- >> You should also get insight on this man. And you should ask them this question. I know Peter and Sokolov (laughs) >> So, you know, I don't know... I'll tell you where I think there's relevant experience is if I look at the future of Veeam. I think the first thing is we've got to think through what the next evolution of Veeam is. You know, there's a ton of work to do even in the path we are on, on data protection. And the team is absolutely brilliant at that. But how do you start to think ahead? How do you think about data management? How do you think about, you know, where are the adjacencies and how does it... How do you shape and reshape the category? You know, and I have some experiences in that. As I look at growth, Veeam has done a phenomenal job you know, 35,000 partners, an execution machine. I mean, just last year we grew ARR, you know, 27% we are sustaining that growth. But as I look ahead, you know there's huge opportunities to further accelerate our share in the enterprise to actually go work with creating multiple layers of partnerships beyond the very successful partnerships we already have. You know, how do you start to get GSIs in the mix? How do you start to get MSPs in the mix? How do you start to actually get to being a core part of the portfolio and platform of our primary storage partners, HPE, Pure Storage and so on. So reinvigorating and creating a multidimensional partnership strategy is key as well. And then just my experience in, you know I ran the enterprise for Microsoft and so those sort of experiences sort of are very relevant to our next step of the journey as well. And finally, you know I think the one thing which matters most for me and yeah, you realize... Again, I think we've forgotten what it means to have a microphone on. But culture, you know, I spent a lot of time in every company I've worked in, in contributing to the culture of what shapes and you know how do you create a purpose-led company and how do you get on that path? Which is a very, very important conversation inside Veeam. you know, and we already do that... You know, there's a huge focus on purpose. There's a huge focus on diversity. There's a huge focus on inclusion, but you know, the cultural aspect of Veeam attracted me to it. And I think my work and my passion for it attracted me to Veeam as well. So just a few of those things. >> Yeah, you speak from the heart, you can sense that. Dave and I were talking with Zias about platform versus product. Now you've got some experience with platforms, obviously, Microsoft, you know the amazing platform. RingCentral Zias brought up. And then I brought up HP, which actually never could figure out its software platform. So you've seen some successes. You've seen some, you know, couldn't ever get there. Do you see Veeam as a platform company? >> You know, the way I look at it is this. I mean, I may actually not answer your question directly but I'll answer the question. >> Dave: Okay. >> Which is, if you look at the biggest successes in the industry, call it Microsoft, Adobe now- >> Dave: Sure. >> Salesforce, eventually the path from a high growth startup to scale is platform and partners. That is the key. >> Dave: Ecosystem- >> So yeah. Platform and the ecosystem. So it all comes together. And so, yes, I mean, I think we already do that. I mean, we have a singular platform today for the multiple workloads we protect from, you know physical to cloud, to Kubernetes to the hybrid architectures the ability to actually, you know restore your data into any cloud, you know, back up from AWS restore into Azure or a physical data center. So we already have a robust platform in place but the scale or the growth from where we are a billion to the next set of milestones 2, 3, 5, 10 is going to be an absolute maturity and amp of platform partnerships ecosystem. >> That's a high wire act. When you talk about platform and scaling, you know, think about moving forward, when you have pressure to grow, often the easiest thing to grow is to acquire and add adjacencies that might not be as core to your core value proposition as they could be. How do you navigate that as you move forward in a world where... Look, Veeam was founded in an age when it was all about meantime between failure, recovery point, recovery time objectives. Now the big concern is malicious actors. So Veeam has been able to navigate that transition very well so far, but how do you do that? How do you balance that moving forward? This idea of platform is a desirous state to be in but you don't want to be a fake platform where you just glue a bunch of things on. >> It all comes down to thinking through where we see the world going from this point in time. How do you see technology evolving? How do you see the outside's, you know influences evolving. And when I say influences, it's, you know, just a euphemism for all the bad actors we expect to see getting even more active. So, you know, the way I think about it is either platform or acquisitions are not things you do piecemeal or point in time. It all needs to accrue to a larger strategy of how you create the ability for all of your customers to own protect, secure, you know their data and eventually create intelligence from it so that they can actually be proactive about it. So that, you know, if that's the thing, you know, our ambition is starting to become how do we sort of secure the world's data and help companies create intelligence from it so they can be proactive about it? You know, everything else sort of accrues from there the platform we evolve from the platform we already have, you know, stems from it. The acquisitions we may do, will do evolves from it. It all are... You know, its pieces coming together to the overall puzzle framework we've already created. >> Yeah. I have so many questions for you. And I want to get into a little bit of your philosophy, but before we do it, I want touch on the TAM a little bit more. You mentioned in the analyst discussion this morning that the market's fragmented. A lot of people think, "Oh, backup, storage, we'll just put it together. You know, Dell now or EMC brought it all together." But they're just dramatically different markets. You're seeing some of your competitors. One in particular is now kind of pivoting to security. It's an adjacency, but it's, yeah, I'm not sure you want to walk into that mess but it's clearly part of a data protection strategy. And you said you want your... My words, legacy to be a significant increase in market share, dominant position in the market. Even if it's number two, whatever, number one's nice, great. But much larger share than what is your 10, 12% today. How do you think about the TAM? It's so undercounted, I think. You know, we used to look at purpose built backup appliances, "Oh, it's a couple billion dollar market and it's a ceiling there." It reminds me of service management with ServiceNow. It's virtually unlimited TAM because it's data. How do you look at the TAM? >> How much time do you have? >> I know, I got so many questions- >> But I'll tell you this, right? You got to piece this question very carefully because I'll look at it in a variety of different ways. Number one, if you do nothing, if you just do nothing. I mean, today, as I shared in IDCs latest report last week we were joined number one, you know, for the first time we actually got- >> Dave: Yeah. Congratulations. That's a big milestone. >> That's huge, that's exciting. >> Dave: And that's revenue by the way. That's not licenses- >> Yeah. That's in share. But the thing is this, right? If, if you look at share, we are at 12%, you know as is the... You know, so 12% is not representative of how I think about number one. When you look at a market with a clear winner you expect to see 40 to 60% market share. So doing nothing is an opportunity to actually continue the path we are on which is taking share from every one of the top five significantly and growing as fast as we are. I mean, we are going to be on a path to, you know doubling our market share in the next two to three years. So there's share to gain doing nothing. And this is... You know what? This is the first and the most simplest aspect of TAM. Now layer in other aspects of TAM but just still stay in data protection. You know, talk about every single SaaS workload coming on. I mean, I shared 270 million Teams' users right now monthly actives. The TAM, if you were able to secure every one of those Teams' users and protect the data, I mean that's close to 6 or $7 billion. It's not factored in into any of the TAM numbers you see right now. Gartner talked about 13. You know, others talked about TAM being 40. I mean, but SaaS workloads, you know each of them are not factored in as much as it could be right now. So, you know, we are bringing in Salesforce, Microsoft 365. We secure 11 million paid users with Microsoft 365 backup. And so add all of them on, execute. We see a path to taking share and getting from here 12 to 25 to 40 and being an outsize number one. And then you'd come down to what you said, which is how do you think about adjacencies? Now, at Veeam, yeah, messaging is important, but unlike some of the competitors, we don't use words frivolously. If we say something, data protection, modern data protection, ransomware attacks, we mean it. And there's product truth behind it. We do not use frivolous security words to create a message and get attention and have no product truth behind it. That's where we are. We expect to see adjacencies come up. We expect Veeam to beyond execution and bringing in more SaaS workloads to look at the next layer of data management. We expect us to create partnerships which allow us to go do that meaningfully. And as time goes, you should expect us to be the prime influencer in reshaping this category with other adjacencies coming in. But we talk about it and there's product truth behind it. >> I wanted to get into your philosophy of management a little bit. I went to your LinkedIn recently and I loved the little graphic that you had. But I know a lot of people put up a picture of a pretty lake or mountains. I got theCUBE up there. You had a number of items. I wonder if I could read. You had a rocket ship, which was very cool. You had teamwork, you had innovation. I wrote down ABC, always be closing, Alec Baldwin. But everybody sells, I think is what it was and then keep it simple. >> Anand: Yep. >> I really like that. I mean, people going to... If they're going to evaluate Veeam they're going to go to your LinkedIn page. So tell us where that came from what your philosophy is as a manager. >> Yeah, no. So there's a few things and this is the philosophies which I put on is a meld of what I believe in and what Veeam believes in and has believed in for a long time which is life starts with a customer. For us, everything starts with a customer. You know, even the product creation philosophy 15 years back was, "Hey let's not just create some check marks and create a feature because someone, you know thought it's an important check mark to have." What is the value it creates for the customer? And is it different enough, unique enough, where, you know, it actually creates a moment where the customer sees the value impact their core business. That's where it all starts for us at Veeam. And then everything we do relates back to, "Is this moving the ball enough for our customers and for our partners and for our developers and users?" Everything comes back to there. Are we easy enough to do business with? You know, are we keeping it simple? Simple to use. A product should be really simple. It should be brain dead simple, you know are our processes such that, you know it's easy for us to connect with our partners, connect with our customers, connect with our users, you know it all comes back to keeping it really simple. And then, you know, I come down to a set of personal philosophies, which matters as well, which is, you know, how do we make sure that, you know, we used to say everyone is in sales, but we got to evolve it. Everyone is in customer success because we all know that it's not just the first sale which matters which was true 15 years back, what matters today is, yeah, the sale matters, everybody is there to sell. But what matters even more is the whole company rallies behind the customer's success at every step along the way. Because when you do that, you don't need to sell. You know, you get in through BBR and then we have a world of workloads to actually create value for the customer with, from, you know Microsoft 365 backup or, you know soon to come Salesforce backup cost. And we see that on net retention or, you know... And it's manifested in numbers, right? It's manifested in growth. It's manifested in net retention and it's manifested in NPS. I mean, Dave, I'm hugely excited about that, man. NPS of 80 where we are. I mean, you guys have been around for quite a bit. I mean, that's huge numbers. I mean, that's- >> Apple's- >> Apple was 76 or 77. And so eventually that is what matters more for me because it's... Share is important. And I'm excited about, you know, IDC saying, "You're joint number one." Hugely important, but that is a consequence. Growth is important. 25% ARR growth in Q1, super important but that is a consequence. What really matters is value for your customers. And the number one metric I look at is NPS, you know and NPS at 80, all the other things start to happen pair it with the engineering culture the innovation culture we have, long roadmap ahead. >> Veeam has made some... What appear to be, from the outside anyway, pretty successful acquisitions. Kasten is an obvious one. I remember it wasn't the first time I met Ratmir. It was maybe the third or fourth time we were at like a late night, Peter Bell party this Highland Capital at VMware. And we were walking down Howard Street. I see Ratmir and some of his colleagues, we start chatting. We, you know, got into a good conversation. I'm like, "What about an IPO?" He goes, "We're not doing an IPO. We don't need to do an IPO." And then several years later on theCUBE, he's like, "No, I'd be open to an IPO." And then of course the big acquisition happened. So you've got an opportunity here M and A obviously is a possibility. But what about the IPO in your future? Presumably, that's something Insight wants to do. What can you tell us about that? >> No, it's a great question. I was waiting when you were going to ask me that question. But this is what I would say which is, by the way, Veeam, at today's numbers, I mean, we shared numbers at the end of last year. 1.1 billion in ARR, 1.2 in revenues, 99.99% organic, right? You know, Kasten was the only acquisition we shared how Kasten is a blip at this point in time. And so the philosophy has always been organic. And as I look ahead, this is how I think about it. I think the pace of market change is going to be extreme. And so we will be a lot more open-minded, thinking about acquisitions for complimentary technologies which allow us to expand TAM and think about adjacencies, more to come there. IPO, see the good thing is this, a lot of companies want to enter the public markets to raise money, create liquidity. That's not the primary lens for us. And so the good news is that, you know we are incredibly profitable. We shared, you know, 30% EBITDA, you know, for 2021. So money is not the issue, but we do think that we entering the public markets is a good thing for a variety of other reasons, because when you are public and it comes with the, you know, transparency, which we believe we're already transparent. But it puts the focus on you. And that creates even better growth impetus. Especially as you go work with large enterprise customers they are a lot more amenable and you know and so we feel that it's a strategy of growth not a strategy of liquidity for us, but stay tuned. You know, I fully expect for something like that to happen sometime towards the middle of next year, to the end of next year. >> Yeah, we had a similar conversation with Frank Slootman they obviously were able to raise money. But wow, what a change since the snowflake IPO in terms of just the brand value. And again, so many questions. I thought your keynote was great, by the way. >> Anand: Thank you. I love the focus on, you know, ransomware, of course. I thought the bot jokes were great. Keep 'em coming. I mean, I really did enjoy- >> (laughs) Absolutely. >> It lightens things up. So thanks so much for coming on theCUBE, really appreciate your time. >> Absolutely appreciate it, Dave and Dave. By the way, I mean, it's funny, I mean about, you know, Dave and Dave, Dave and David reminded me of Thompson and Thompson, guess which comic book they're from? >> Thompson and Thompson- >> Thompson and Thompson. I don't know. >> Don't know. >> Tin Tin. >> Oh (laughs). >> (laughs) So you got to go read up. You guys don't look anything like that, but Dave and Dave, was an absolute pleasure. My first theCUBE and look forward to many more to come. >> Love to have you back- >> Absolutely. >> All right. Thank you for watching. >> Thank you. >> Keep it right there. TheCUBE's coverage of Veeamon 2022, 2 days of wall to wall coverage here at the ARIA in Las Vegas, we'll be right back. (upbeat music)

>> From "theCUBE" studios in Palo Alto, in Boston, bringing you data driven insights from "theCUBE" and ETR. This is "Breaking Analysis" with Dave Vellante. >> There are very few political issues that get bipartisan support these days, nevermind consensus spanning geopolitical boundaries. But whether we're talking across the aisle or over the pond, there seems to be common agreement that the power of big tech firms should be regulated. But the government's track record when it comes to antitrust aimed at big tech is actually really mixed, mixed at best. History has shown that market forces rather than public policy have been much more effective at curbing monopoly power in the technology industry. Hello, and welcome to this week's "Wikibon CUBE" insights powered by ETR. In this "Breaking Analysis" we welcome in frequent "CUBE" contributor Dave Moschella, author and senior fellow at the Information Technology and Innovation Foundation. Dave, welcome, good to see you again. >> Hey, thanks Dave, good to be here. >> So you just recently published an article, we're going to bring it up here and I'll read the title, "Theory Aside, Antitrust Advocates Should Keep Their "Big Tech" Ambitions Narrow". And in this post you argue that big sweeping changes like breaking apart companies to moderate monopoly power in the tech industry have been ineffective compared to market forces, but you're not saying government shouldn't be involved rather you're suggesting that more targeted measures combined with market forces are the right answer. Can you maybe explain a little bit more the premise behind your research and some of your conclusions? >> Sure, and first let's go back to that title, when I said, theory aside, that is referring to a huge debate that's going on in global antitrust circles these days about whether antitrust should follow the traditional path of being invoked when there's real harm, demonstrable harm to consumers or a new theory that says that any sort of vast monopoly power inevitably will be bad for competition and consumers at some point, so your best to intervene now to avoid harms later. And that school, which was a very minor part of the antitrust world for many, many years is now quite ascendant and the debate goes on doesn't matter which side of that you're on the questions sort of there well, all right, well, if you're going to do something to take on big tech and clearly many politicians, regulators are sort of issuing to do something, what would you actually do? And what are the odds that that'll do more good than harm? And that was really the origins of the piece and trying to take a historical view of that. >> Yeah, I learned a new word, thank you. Neo-brandzian had to look it up, but basically you're saying that traditionally it was proving consumer harm versus being proactive about the possibility or likelihood of consumer harm. >> Correct, and that's a really big shift that a lot of traditional antitrust people strongly object to, but is now sort of the trendy and more send and view. >> Got it, okay, let's look a little deeper into the history of tech monopolies and government action and see what we can learn from that. We put together this slide that we can reference. It shows the three historical targets in the tech business and now the new ones. In 1969, the DOJ went after IBM, Big Blue and it's 13 years later, dropped its suit. And then in 1984 the government broke Ma Bell apart and in the late 1990s, went after Microsoft, I think it was 1998 in the Wintel monopoly. And recently in an interview with tech journalist, Kara Swisher, the FTC chair Lena Khan claimed that the government played a major role in moderating the power of tech giants historically. And I think she even specifically referenced Microsoft or maybe Kara did and basically said the industry and consumers from the dominance of companies like Microsoft. So Dave, let's briefly talk about and Kara by the way, didn't really challenge that, she kind of let it slide. But let's talk about each of these and test this concept a bit. Were the government actions in these instances necessary? What were the outcomes and the consequences? Maybe you could start with IBM and AT&T. >> Yeah, it's a big topic and there's a lot there and a lot of history, but I might just sort of introduce by saying for whatever reasons antitrust has been part of the entire information technology industry history from mainframe to the current period and that slide sort of gives you that. And the reasons for that are I think once that we sort of know the economies of scale, network effects, lock in safe choices, lot of things that explain it, but the good bit about that is we actually have so much history of this and we can at least see what's happened in the past and when you look at IBM and AT&T they both were massive antitrust cases. The one against IBM was dropped and it was dropped in as you say, in 1980. Well, what was going on in at that time, IBM was sort of considered invincible and unbeatable, but it was 1981 that the personal computer came around and within just a couple of years the world could see that the computing paradigm had change from main frames and minis to PCs lines client server and what have you. So IBM in just a couple of years went from being unbeatable, you can't compete with them, we have to break up with them to being incredibly vulnerable and in trouble and never fully recovered and is sort of a shell of what it once was. And so the market took care of that and no action was really necessary just by everybody thinking there was. The case of AT&T, they did act and they broke up the company and I would say, first question is, was that necessary? Well, lots of countries didn't do that and the reality is 1980 breaking it up into long distance and regional may have made some sense, but by the 1990 it was pretty clear that the telecom world was going to change dramatically from long distance and fixed wires services to internet services, data services, wireless services and all of these things that we're going to restructure the industry anyways. But AT& T one to me is very interesting because of the unintended consequences. And I would say that the main unintended consequence of that was America's competitiveness in telecommunications took a huge hit. And today, to this day telecommunications is dominated by European, Chinese and other firms. And the big American sort of players of the time AT&T which Western Electric became Lucent, Lucent is now owned by Nokia and is really out of it completely and most notably and compellingly Bell Labs, the Bell Labs once the world's most prominent research institution now also a shell of itself and as it was part of Lucent is also now owned by the Finnish company Nokia. So that restructuring greatly damaged America's core strength in telecommunications hardware and research and one can argue we've never recovered right through this 5IG today. So it's a very good example of the market taking care of, the big problem, but meddling leading to some unintended consequences that have hurt the American competitiveness and as we'll talk about, probably later, you can see some of that going on again today and in the past with Microsoft and Intel. >> Right, yeah, Bell Labs was an American gem, kind of like Xerox PARC and basically gone now. You mentioned Intel and Microsoft, Microsoft and Intel. As many people know, some young people don't, IBM unwillingly handed its monopoly to Intel and Microsoft by outsourcing the micro processor and operating system, respectively. Those two companies ended up with IBM ironically, agreeing to take OS2 which was its proprietary operating system and giving Intel, Microsoft Windows not realizing that its ability to dominate a new disruptive market like PCs and operating systems had been vaporized to your earlier point by the new Wintel ecosystem. Now Dave, the government wanted to break Microsoft apart and split its OS business from its application software, in the case of Intel, Intel only had one business. You pointed out microprocessors so it couldn't bust it up, but take us through the history here and the consequences of each. >> Well, the Microsoft one is sort of a classic because the antitrust case which was raging in the sort of mid nineties and 1998 when it finally ended, those were the very, once again, everybody said, Bill Gates was unstoppable, no one could compete with Microsoft they'd buy them, destroy them, predatory pricing, whatever they were accusing of the attacks on Netscape all these sort of things. But those the very years where it was becoming clear first that Microsoft basically missed the early big years of the internet and then again, later missed all the early years of the mobile phone business going back to BlackBerrys and pilots and all those sorts of things. So here we are the government making the case that this company is unstoppable and you can't compete with them the very moment they're entirely on the defensive. And therefore wasn't surprising that that suit eventually was dropped with some minor concessions about Microsoft making it a little bit easier for third parties to work with them and treating people a little bit more, even handling perfectly good things that they did. But again, the more market took care of the problem far more than the antitrust activities did. The Intel one is also interesting cause it's sort of like the AT& T one. On the one hand antitrust actions made Intel much more likely and in fact, required to work with AMD enough to keep that company in business and having AMD lowered prices for consumers certainly probably sped up innovation in the personal computer business and appeared to have a lot of benefits for those early years. But when you look at it from a longer point of view and particularly when look at it again from a global point of view you see that, wow, they not so clear because that very presence of AMD meant that there's a lot more pressure on Intel in terms of its pricing, its profitability, its flexibility and its volumes. All the things that have made it harder for them to A, compete with chips made in Taiwan, let alone build them in the United States and therefore that long term effect of essentially requiring Intel to allow AMD to exist has undermined Intel's position globally and arguably has undermined America's position in the long run. And certainly Intel today is far more vulnerable to an ARM and Invidia to other specialized chips to China, to Taiwan all of these things are going on out there, they're less capable of resisting that than they would've been otherwise. So, you thought we had some real benefits with AMD and lower prices for consumers, but the long term unintended consequences are arguably pretty bad. >> Yeah, that's why we recently wrote in Intel two "Strategic To Fail", we'll see, Okay. now we come to 2022 and there are five companies with anti-trust targets on their backs. Although Microsoft seems to be the least susceptible to US government ironically intervention at this this point, but maybe not and we show "The Cincos Comas Club" in a homage to Russ Hanneman of the show "Silicon Valley" Apple, Microsoft, Google, and Amazon all with trillion dollar plus valuations. But meta briefly crossed that threshold like Mr. Hanneman lost a comma and is now well under that market cap probably around five or 600 million, sorry, billion. But under serious fire nonetheless Dave, people often don't realize the immense monopoly power that IBM had which relatively speaking when measured its percent of industry revenue or profit dwarf that of any company in tech ever, but the industry is much smaller then, no internet, no cloud. Does it call for a different approach this time around? How should we think about these five companies their market power, the implications of government action and maybe what you suggested more narrow action versus broad sweeping changes. >> Yeah, and there's a lot there. I mean, if you go back to the old days IBM had what, 70% of the computer business globally and AT&T had 90% or so of the American telecom market. So market shares that today's players can only dream of. Intel and Microsoft had 90% of the personal computer market. And then you look at today the big five and as wealthy and as incredibly successful as they've been, you sort of have almost the argument that's wrong on the face of it. How can five companies all of which compete with each other to at least some degree, how can they all be monopolies? And the reality is they're not monopolies, they're all oligopolies that are very powerful firms, but none of them have an outright monopoly on anything. There are competitors in all the spaces that they're in and increasing and probably increasingly so. And so, yeah, I think people conflate the extraordinary success of the companies with this belief that therefore they are monopolist and I think they're far less so than those in the past. >> Great, all right, I want to do a quick drill down to cloud computing, it's a key component of digital business infrastructure in his book, "Seeing Digital", Dave Moschella coined a term the matrix or the key which is really referred to the key technology platforms on which people are going to build digital businesses. Dave, we joke you should have called it the metaverse you were way ahead of your time. But I want to look at this ETR chart, we show spending momentum or net score on the vertical access market share or pervasiveness in the dataset on the horizontal axis. We show this view a lot, we put a dotted line at the 40% mark which indicates highly elevated spending. And you can sort of see Microsoft in the upper right, it's so far up to the right it's hidden behind the January 22 and AWS is right there. Those two dominate the cloud far ahead of the pack including Google Cloud. Microsoft and to a lesser extent AWS they dominate in a lot of other businesses, productivity, collaboration, database, security, video conferencing. MarTech with LinkedIn PC software et cetera, et cetera, Googles or alphabets of business of course is ads and we don't have similar spending data on Apple and Facebook, but we know these companies dominate their respective business. But just to give you a sense of the magnitude of these companies, here's some financial data that's worth looking at briefly. The table ranks companies by market cap in trillions that's the second column and everyone in the club, but meta and each has revenue well over a hundred billion dollars, Amazon approaching half a trillion dollars in revenue. The operating income and cash positions are just mind boggling and the cash equivalents are comparable or well above the revenues of highly successful tech companies like Cisco, Dell, HPE, Oracle, and Salesforce. They're extremely profitable from an operating income standpoint with the clear exception of Amazon and we'll come back to that in a moment and we show the revenue multiples in the last column, Apple, Microsoft, and Google, just insane. Dave, there are other equally important metrics, CapX is one which kind of sets the stage for future scale and there are other measures. >> Yeah, including our research and development where those companies are spending hundreds of billions of dollars over the years. And I think it's easy to look at those numbers and just say, this doesn't seem right, how can any companies have so much and spend so much? But if you think of what they're actually doing, those companies are building out the digital infrastructure of essentially the entire world. And I remember once meeting some folks at Google, and they said, beyond AI, beyond Search, beyond Android, beyond all the specific things we do, the biggest thing we're actually doing is building a physical infrastructure that can deliver search results on any topic in microseconds and the physical capacity they built costs those sorts of money. And when people start saying, well, we should have lots and lots of smaller companies well, that sounds good, yeah, it's all right, but where are those companies going to get the money to build out what needs to be built out? And every country in the world is trying to build out its digital infrastructure and some are going to do it much better than others. >> I want to just come back to that chart on Amazon for a bit, notice their comparatively tiny operating profit as a percentage of revenue, Amazon is like Bezos giant lifestyle business, it's really never been that profitable like most retail. However, there's one other financial data point around Amazon's business that we want to share and this chart here shows Amazon's operating profit in the blue bars and AWS's in the orange. And the gray line is the percentage of Amazon's overall operating profit that comes from AWS. That's the right most access, so last quarter we were well over a hundred percent underscoring the power of AWS and the horrendous margins in retail. But AWS is essentially funding Amazon's entrance into new markets, whether it's grocery or movies, Bezos moves into space. Dave, a while back you collaborated with us and we asked our audience, what could disrupt Amazon? And we came up with your detailed help, a number of scenarios as shown here. And we asked the audience to rate the likelihood of each scenario in terms of its likelihood of disrupting Amazon with a 10 being highly likely on average the score was six with complacency, arrogance, blindness, you know, self-inflicted wounds really taking the top spot with 6.5. So Dave is breaking up Amazon the right formula in your view, why or why not? >> Yeah, there's a couple of things there. The first is sort of the irony that when people in the sort of regulatory world talk about the power of Amazon, they almost always talk about their power in consumer markets, whether it's books or retail or impact on malls or main street shops or whatever and as you say that they make very little money doing that. The interest people almost never look at the big cloud battle between Amazon, Microsoft and lesser extent Google, Alibaba others, even though that's where they're by far highest market share and pricing power and all those things are. So the regulatory focus is sort of weird, but you know, the consumer stuff obviously gets more appeal to the general public. But that survey you referred to me was interesting because one of the challenges I sort of sent myself I was like okay, well, if I'm going to say that IBM case, AT&T case, Microsoft's case in all those situations the market was the one that actually minimized the power of those firms and therefore the antitrust stuff wasn't really necessary. Well, how true is that going to be again, just cause it's been true in the past doesn't mean it's true now. So what are the possible scenarios over the 2020s that might make it all happen again? And so each of those were sort of questions that we put out to others, but the ones that to me by far are the most likely I mean, they have the traditional one of company cultures sort of getting fat and happy and all, that's always the case, but the more specific ones, first of all by far I think is China. You know, Amazon retail is a low margin business. It would be vulnerable if it didn't have the cloud profits behind it, but imagine a year from now two years from now trade tensions with China get worse and Christmas comes along and China just says, well, you know, American consumers if you want that new exercise bike or that new shoes or clothing, well, anything that we make well, actually that's not available on Amazon right now, but you can get that from Alibaba. And maybe in America that's a little more farfetched, but in many countries all over the world it's not farfetched at all. And so the retail divisions vulnerability to China just seems pretty obvious. Another possible disruption, Amazon has spent billions and billions with their warehouses and their robots and their automated inventory systems and all the efficiencies that they've done there, but you could argue that maybe someday that's not really necessary that you have Search which finds where a good is made and a logistical system that picks that up and delivers it to customers and why do you need all those warehouses anyways? So those are probably the two top one, but there are others. I mean, a lot of retailers as they get stronger online, maybe they start pulling back some of the premium products from Amazon and Amazon takes their cut of whatever 30% or so people might want to keep more of that in house. You see some of that going on today. So the idea that the Amazon is in vulnerable disruption is probably is wrong and as part of the work that I'm doing, as part of stuff that I do with Dave and SiliconANGLE is how's that true for the others too? What are the scenarios for Google or Apple or Microsoft and the scenarios are all there. And so, will these companies be disrupted as they have in the past? Well, you can't say for sure, but the scenarios are certainly plausible and I certainly wouldn't bet against it and that's what history tells us. And it could easily happen once again and therefore, the antitrust should at least be cautionary and humble and realize that maybe they don't need to act as much as they think. >> Yeah, now, one of the things that you mentioned in your piece was felt like narrow remedies, were more logical. So you're not arguing for totally Les Affaire you're pushing for remedies that are more targeted in scope. And while the EU just yesterday announced new rules to limit the power of tech companies and we showed the article, some comments here the regulators they took the social media to announce a victory and they had a press conference. I know you watched that it was sort of a back slapping fest. The comments however, that we've sort of listed here are mixed, some people applauded, but we saw many comments that were, hey, this is a horrible idea, this was rushed together. And these are going to result as you say in unintended consequences, but this is serious stuff they're talking about applying would appear to be to your point or your prescription more narrowly defined restrictions although a lot of them to any company with a market cap of more than 75 billion Euro or turnover of more than 77.5 billion Euro which is a lot of companies and imposing huge penalties for violations up to 20% of annual revenue for repeat offenders, wow. So again, you've taken a brief look at these developments, you watched the press conference, what do you make of this? This is an application of more narrow restrictions, but in your quick assessment did they get it right? >> Yeah, let's break that down a little bit, start a little bit of history again and then get to Europe because although big sweeping breakups of the type that were proposed for IBM, Microsoft and all weren't necessary that doesn't mean that the government didn't do some useful things because they did. In the case of IBM government forces in Europe and America basically required IBM to make it easier for companies to make peripherals type drives, disc drives, printers that worked with IBM mainframes. They made them un-bundle their software pricing that made it easier for database companies and others to sell their of products. With AT&T it was the government that required AT&T to actually allow other phones to connect to the network, something they argued at the time would destroy security or whatever that it was the government that required them to allow MCI the long distance carrier to connect to the AT network for local deliveries. And with that Microsoft and Intel the government required them to at least treat their suppliers more even handly in terms of pricing and policies and support and such things. So the lessons out there is the big stuff wasn't really necessary, but the little stuff actually helped a lot and I think you can see the scenarios and argue in the piece that there's little stuff that can be done today in all the cases for the big five, there are things that you might want to consider the companies aren't saints they take advantage of their power, they use it in ways that sometimes can be reigned in and make for better off overall. And so that's how it brings us to the European piece of it. And to me, the European piece is much more the bad scenario of doing too much than the wiser course of trying to be narrow and specific. What they've basically done is they have a whole long list of narrow things that they're all trying to do at once. So they want Amazon not to be able to share data about its selling partners and they want Apple to open up their app store and they don't want people Google to be able to share data across its different services, Android, Search, Mail or whatever. And they don't want Facebook to be able to, they want to force Facebook to open up to other messaging services. And they want to do all these things for all the big companies all of which are American, and they want to do all that starting next year. And to me that looks like a scenario of a lot of difficult problems done quickly all of which might have some value if done really, really well, but all of which have all kinds of risks for the unintended consequence we've talked before and therefore they seem to me being too much too soon and the sort of problems we've seen in the past and frankly to really say that, I mean, the Europeans would never have done this to the companies if they're European firms, they're doing this because they're all American firms and the sort of frustration of Americans dominance of the European tech industry has always been there going back to IBM, Microsoft, Intel, and all of them. But it's particularly strong now because the tech business is so big. And so I think the politics of this at a time where we're supposedly all this great unity of America and NATO and Europe in regards to Ukraine, having the Europeans essentially go after the most important American industry brings in the geopolitics in I think an unavoidable way. And I would think the story is going to get pretty tense over the next year or so and as you say, the Europeans think that they're taking massive actions, they think they're doing the right thing. They think this is the natural follow on to the GDPR stuff and even a bigger version of that and they think they have more to come and they see themselves as the people taming big tech not just within Europe, but for the world and absent any other rules that they may pull that off. I mean, GDPR has indeed spread despite all of its flaws. So the European thing which it doesn't necessarily get huge attention here in America is certainly getting attention around the world and I would think it would get more, even more going forward. >> And the caution there is US public policy makers, maybe they can provide, they will provide a tailwind maybe it's a blind spot for them and it could be a template like you say, just like GDPR. Okay, Dave, we got to leave it there. Thanks for coming on the program today, always appreciate your insight and your views, thank you. >> Hey, thanks a lot, Dave. >> All right, don't forget these episodes are all available as podcast, wherever you listen. All you got to do is search, "Breaking Analysis Podcast". Check out ETR website, etr.ai. We publish every week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. And you can email me david.vellante@siliconangle.com or DM me @davevellante. Comment on my LinkedIn post. This is Dave Vellante for Dave Michelle for "theCUBE Insights" powered by ETR. Have a great week, stay safe, be well and we'll see you next time. (slow tempo music)

>>Hello, and welcome back to the cubes coverage of coop con cloud native con 2021. We're here in person at a real event. I'm John farrier host of the cube, but Dave Nicholson, Michael has got great guests here. Two founders of brand new startup, one week old cable on ASCII and Dave Lawrence, uh, with chain guard, former Google employees, open source community members decided to start a company with five other people on total five total. Congratulations. Welcome to the cube. >>Thank you. Thank you for >>Having us. So tell us like a product, you know, we know you don't have a price. So take us through the story because this is one of those rare moments. We got great chance to chat with you guys just a week into the new forms company and the team. What's the focus, what's the vision. >>How far back do you want to go with this story >>And why you left Google? So, you know, we're a gin and tonics. We get a couple of beers I can do that. We can do that. Let's just take over the world. >>Yeah. So we both been at Google, uh, for awhile. Um, the last couple of years we've been really worried about and focused on open-source security risk and supply chain security in general and software. Um, it's been a really interesting time as you probably noticed, uh, to be in that space, but it wasn't that interesting two years ago or even a year and a half ago. Um, so we were doing a bunch of this work at Google and the open source. Nobody really understood it. People kind of looked at us funny at talks and conferences. Um, and then beginning of this year, a bunch of attacks started happening, uh, things in the headlines like solar winds, solar winds attack, like you say, it attack all these different ransomware things happening. Uh, companies and governments are getting hit with supply chain attacks. So overnight people kind of started caring and being really worried about the stuff that we've been doing for a while. So it was a pretty cool thing to be a part of. And it seemed like a good time to start a company and keep your >>Reaction to this startup. How do you honestly feel, I suppose, feeling super excited. Yeah. >>I am really excited. I was in stars before Google. So then I went to Google where there for seven, I guess, Dan, a little bit longer, but I was there for seven years on the product side. And then yeah, we, we, the open source stuff, we were really there for protecting Google and we both came from cloud before that working on enterprise product. So then sorta just saw the opportunity, you know, while these companies trying to scramble and then sort of figure out how to better secure themselves. So it seemed like a perfect, >>The start-up bug and you back in the start up, but it's the timing's perfect. I got to say, this is a big conversation supply chain from whether it's components and software now, huge attack vector, people are taking advantage of it super important. So I'm really glad you're doing it. But first explain to the folks watching what is supply chain software? What's the challenge? What is the, what is the supply chain security challenge or problem? >>Sure. Yeah, it's the metaphor of software supply chain. It's just like physical supply chain. That's where the name came from. And it, it really comes down to how the code gets from your team's keyboard, your team's fingers on those keyboards into your production environment. Um, and that's just the first level of it. Uh, cause nobody writes all of the code. They use themselves. We're here at cloud native con it's hundreds of open source vendors, hundreds of open libraries that people are reusing. So your, your trust, uh, radius and your attack radius extends to not just your own companies, your own developers, but to everyone at this conference. And then everyone that they rely on all the way out. Uh, it's quite terrifying. It's a surface, the surface area explode pretty quickly >>And people are going and the, and the targeting to, because everyone's touching the code, it's open. It's a lot of action going on. How do you solve the problem? What is the approach? What's the mindset? What's the vision on the problems solving solutions? >>Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, I think like you said, the first step is awareness. Like Dan's been laughing, he's been, he felt like a crazy guy in the corner saying, you know, stop building software underneath your desk and you know, getting companies, >>Hey, we didn't do, why don't you tell them? I was telling him for five years. >>Yeah. But, but I think one of his go-to lines was like, would you pick up a thumb drive off the side of the street and plug it into your computer? Probably not. But when you download, you know, an open source package or something, that's actually can give you more privileges and production environments and it's so it's pretty scary. Um, so I think, you know, for the last few years we've been working on a number of open source projects in this space. And so I think that's where we're going to start is we're going to look at those and then try to grow out the community. And we're, we're watching companies, even like solar winds, trying to piece these parts together, um, and really come up with a better solution for themselves. >>Are there existing community initiatives or open source efforts that are underway that you plan to participate in or you chart? Are you thinking of charting a new >>Path? >>Oh, it's that looks like, uh, Thomas. Yeah, the, the SIG store project we kicked off back in March, if you've covered that or familiar with that at all. But we kicked that off back in March of 2021 kind of officially we'd look at code for awhile before then the idea there was to kind of do what let's encrypted, uh, for browsers and Webster, um, security, but for code signing and open source security. So we've always been able to get code signing certificates, but nobody's really using them because they're expensive. They're complicated, just like less encrypted for CAS. They made a free one that was automated and easy to use for developers. And now people do without thinking about it in six stores, we tried to do the same thing for open source and just because of the headlines that were happening and all of the attacks, the momentum has just been incredible. >>Is it a problem that people just have to just get on board with a certain platform or tool or people have too many tools, they abandoned them there, their focus shifts is there. Why what's the, what's the main problem right now? >>Well, I think, you know, part of the problem is just having the tools easy enough for developers are going to want to use them and it's not going to get in our way. I think that's going to be a core piece of our company is really nailing down the developer experience and these toolings and like the co-sign part of SIG store that he was explaining, like it's literally one command line to sign, um, a package, assign a container and then one line to verify on the other side. And then these organizations can put together sort of policies around who they trust and their system like today it's completely black box. They have no idea what they're running and takes a re >>You have to vape to rethink and redo everything pretty much if they want to do it right. If they just kind of fixing the old Europe's sold next solar with basically. >>Yeah. And that's why we're here at cloud native con when people are, you know, the timing is perfect because people are already rethinking how their software gets built as they move it into containers and as they move it into Kubernetes. So it's a perfect opportunity to not just shift to Kubernetes, but to fix the way you build software from this, >>What'd you say is the most prevalent change mindset change of developers. Now, if you had to kind of, kind of look at it and say, okay, current state-of-the-art mindset of a developer versus say a few years ago, is it just that they're doing things modularly with more people? Or is it more new approaches? Is there a, is there a, >>I think it's just paying attention to your building release process and taking it seriously. This has been a theme for, since I've been in software, but you have these very fancy production data centers with physical security and all these levels of, uh, Preston prevention and making sure you can't get in there, but then you've got a Jenkins machine that's three years old under somebody's desk building the code that goes into there. >>It gets socially engineered. It gets at exactly. >>Yeah. It's like the, it's like the movies where they, uh, instead of breaking into jail, they hide in the food delivery truck. And it's, it's that, that's the metaphor that I like perfectly. The fence doesn't work. If your truck, if you open the door once a week, it doesn't matter how big defenses. Yeah. So that's >>Good Dallas funny. >>And I, I think too, like when I used to be an engineer before I joined Google, just like how easy it is to bring in a third party package or something, you know, you need like an image editing software, like just go find one off the internet. And I think, you know, developers are slowly doing a mind shift. They're like, Hey, if I introduce a new dependency, you know, there's going to be, I'm going to have to maintain this thing and understand >>It's a little bit of a decentralized view too. Also, you got a little bit of that. Hey, if you sign it, you own it. If it tracks back to you, okay, you are, your fingerprints are, if you will, or on that chain of >>Custody and custody. >>Exactly. I was going to say, when I saw chain guard at first of course, I thought that my pant leg riding a bike, but then of course the supply chain things coming in, like on a conveyor belt, conveyor, conveyor belt. But that, that whole question of chain of custody, it isn't, it isn't as simple as a process where someone grabs some code, embeds it in, what's going on, pushes it out somewhere else. That's not the final step typically. Yeah. >>So somebody else grabs that one. And does it again, 35 more times, >>The one, how do you verify that? That's yeah, it seems like an obvious issue that needs to be addressed. And yet, apparently from what you're telling us for quite a while, people thought you were a little bit in that, >>And it's not just me. I mean, not so Ken Thompson of bell labs and he wrote the book >>He wrote, yeah, it was a seatbelt that I grew >>Up on in the eighties. He gave a famous lecture called uh, reflections on trusting trust, where he pranked all of his colleagues at bell labs by putting a back door in a compiler. And that put back doors into every program that compiled. And he was so clever. He even put it in, he made that compiler put a backdoor into the disassembler to hide the back door. So he spent weeks and, you know, people just kind of gave up. And I think at that point they were just like, oh, we can't trust any software ever. And just forgot about it and kept going on and living their lives. So this is a 40 year old problem. We only care about it now. >>It's totally true. A lot of these old sacred cows. So I would have done life cycles, not really that relevant anymore because the workflows are changing. These new Bev changes. It's complete dev ops is taken over. Let's just admit it. Right. So if we have ops is taken over now, cloud native apps are hitting the scene. This is where I think there's a structural industry change, not just the community. So with that in mind, how do you guys vector into that in terms of a market entry? What's just thinking around product. Obviously you got a higher, did you guys raise some capital in process? A little bit of a capital raise five, no problem. Todd market, but product wise, you've got to come in, get the beachhead. >>I mean, we're, we're, we're casting a wide net right now and talking to as many customers like we've met a lot of these, these customer potential customers through the communities, you know, that we've been building and we did a supply chain security con helped with that event, this, this Monday to negative one event and solar winds and Citibank were there and talking about their solutions. Um, and so I think, you know, and then we'll narrow it down to like people that would make good partners to work with and figure out how they think they're solving the problem today. And really >>How do you guys feel good? You feel good? Well, we got Jerry Chen coming off from gray lock next round. He would get a term sheet, Jerry, this guy's got some action on it in >>There. Probably didn't reply to him on LinkedIn. >>He's coming out with Kronos for him. He just invested 200 million at CrossFit. So you guys should have a great time. Congratulations on the leap. I know it's comfortable to beat Google, a lot of things to work on. Um, and student startups are super fun too, but not easy. None of the female or, you know, he has done it before, so. Right. Cool. What do you think about today? Did the event here a little bit smaller, more VIP event? What's your takeaway on this? >>It's good to be back in person. Obviously we're meeting, we've been associating with folks over zoom and Google meets for a while now and meeting them in person as I go, Hey, no hard to recognize behind the mask, but yeah, we're just glad to sort of be back out in a little bit of normalization. >>Yeah. How's everything in Austin, everyone everyone's safe and good over there. >>Yeah. It's been a long, long pandemic. Lots of ups and downs, but yeah. >>Got to get the music scene back. Most of these are comes back in the house. Everything's all back to normal. >>Yeah. My hair doesn't normally look like this. I just haven't gotten a haircut since this also >>You're going to do well in this market. You got a term sheet like that. Keep the hair, just to get the money. I think I saw your LinkedIn profile and I was wondering it's like, which version are we going to get? Well, super relevant. Super great topic. Congratulations. Thanks for coming on. Sharing the story. You're in the queue. Great jumper. Dave Nicholson here on the cube date, one of three days we're back in person of course, hybrid event. Cause the cube.net for all more footage and highlights and remote interviews. So stay tuned more coverage after this short break.

(Upbeat Music) >> Commvault was an idea that incubated as a project inside of Bell Labs, one of the most prestigious research and development organizations in the world, back in the day. It became an official company in 1996, and Commvault just celebrated its 25th anniversary As such, Commvault has had to reinvent itself many times over the past two and a half decades from riding the waves of the very early PC networking era to supporting a rich set of solutions for the evolving enterprise. This includes things like cloud computing, ransomware, disaster recovery, security compliance, and pretty much all things data protection and data management. And with me to talk about the company, its vision for the future with also a voice of the customer are three great guests. Isabelle Guis is the Chief Marketing Officer of Commvault, Manoj Nair is the GM of Metallic, and Tim Carben is a Principal Systems Engineer with Mitchell International. Folks, welcome to the Commvault power panel. Come inside theCUBE. It's awesome to have you. [Isabelle] Great to be here today. >> All right. First of all, I got to congratulate you celebrating 25 years. That's a long time, not a lot of tech companies make it that far and are still successful and relevant. So Isabelle, maybe you could start off. What do you think has been the driving factor for your ability to kind of lead through the subsequent technological waves that I alluded to upfront? >> So well, 25 years is commendable but we are not counting success in number of years. We're really counting success in how many customers we've helped over those years. And I will say what has been the driving matter for us as who that, has been innovating with our customers. You know, we were there every step of the way when they migrate to hybrid cloud. And now as they go to multi-cloud in a post COVID world where they have to win gold you know, distributed workforce, different types of workloads and devices, we all there too. We assess workload as well. So the innovation keep coming in, thanks to us listening to our customer and then, adding needs that change over the last 25 years and probably for the next 25 as well. You know, we want to be here for customer was thinking that data is an asset, not a liability. And also making sure that we offer them a broad range of use cases to quote why things simple because the world is getting too complex for them. So let's take the complexity on us. >> Thank you for that. So Manoj, you've riffed on the cube before about, you know putting on the binoculars and looking at the future. So, let's talk about that. Where do you see the future for this industry? What are some of the key driving factors that matter? >> It's great to be back on theCUBE. You know, we see our industry no different than lots of other industries. The SaaS Model is rapidly being adopted. And the reason is, you know customers are looking for simplicity, simplicity not just in leveraging, you know the great technology that Commvault has built, but in the business model and the experience. So, you know, that's one of the fastest growing trends that started in consumer apps and other applications, other B to B apps. And now we're seeing it in core infrastructure like data management, data protection. They're also trying to leverage their data better. Make sure it's not fragmented. So how do you deliver more intelligent services? You know, securing the data, insights from the data, transforming the data, and that combination, you know, our ability to do that in a multi-cloud world like Isabelle said, now with increasing edge work loads. Sometimes, you know, our customers say their data centers has a new edge too. So you kind of have this, you know, data everywhere workloads everywhere, yet the desire to deliver that with a holistic experience, we call it the 'power of bank'; the ability to manage your data and leverage the data with the simple lesson without compromise. And that's really what we're seeing as part of the future. >> Okay. I don't know if all want to come back to you and double click on that, but I want to introduce Tim to the conversation here. You bring in the voice of the customer, as they say. Tim, my understanding is Mitchell has been a Commvault customer since the mid-2000s. So, tell us why Commvault, what has kept you with the company for more than 15 years? >> Yeah, we are, it was what, 2006 when we started. And really what it all boils down to it, it's just as Isabel said, innovation. At Mitchell, we're always looking to stay ahead of the trend. And, you know, just to like was mentioned earlier, data is the most important part here. Commvault provides us peace of mind to protect and manage our data. And they do data protection for all of our environments right now. We've been a partner to help in navel our digital transformation including SaaS and cloud adoption. When we start talking about the solutions we have, I mean we of course started in 2006. I mean, this was version version 6 if I remember right. This predates me at the company. Upgraded to seven, eight, nine, we brought in ten, brought in eleven, brought in HyperScale, and then moved on to bring in the Metallic. And Commvault provides the reason for this. I guess I should say is, Commvault provides a reliable backup but most importantly, recovery. Rapid recovery. That's what gives me confidence. That's what helps me sleep better at night. So when I started looking at SaaS as a differentiator to protect our 036 environments or 065 environments, Metallic was a natural choice. And the one thing I wanted to add to that is, it came out cheaper than us building it ourselves. When you take into account resources as well as compute and storage. So again, just a natural choice. >> Yeah. As the saying goes back up as one thing, recovery's everything. Isabelle. Yeah, we've seen the SaaSification of the enterprise. Particularly, you know from the app side. You came from Salesforce. So you, the company that is the poster child for SaaS. But my question is what's catalyzing this shift and why do you think data protection is ready to make the move? >> Well, there's so many good things and that's that. As you know, you remember when people started moving to the cloud and transforming their CAPEX into OPEX. Well SaaS bring yet another level of benefits. IT, we know always has to do more with less. And so SaaS allows you to, once you set up, you've got all the software upgrades automatically without you know, I think it's, why it works. You can better manage your cash flow, because you pay as you grow. And also you have a faster time to value. So all of this at help, the fast adoption and I will tell you today I don't think there is a single customer who doesn't have at least one SaaS application because they have things of value of this. Now, when it comes to backup and recovery everybody's at different stages. You still have On-Premises, you have cloud, there's SaaS, there's Workloads devices. And so what we think was the most important was to offer a broad choice of delivery model being able to support them if they want a software subscription, if they want an integrated appliance, or if they want SaaS as a service model, and also some of our partners actually delivering this in a more custom and managed way as well. So offering choice, because everybody is at a different stage on this journey. When it comes to data management and protection, I actually, you know, I think team is the example of taking full advantage of this bold choice. >> Well, you mentioned Tim that you leaned into Metallic. We have seen the SaaS everywhere. We used to have a email server, right? I mean, you know, On-Prem, that just doesn't happen anymore. But how was Mitchell International thinking about SaaS? Maybe you could share your, from your customer perch, what you're seeing. >> Well, what's interesting about this is, Mitchell is been providing SaaS for a long time. We are a technology company and we do provide solutions, SaaS solutions, to our customers. And this makes it so important to be able to embrace it because we know the value behind it. We're providing that to our customers. And when I look at what Commvault is doing I know that Commvault is doing the same thing. They're providing the SaaS Model as a value to their customers. And it's so important to go with this because we keep our environments cutting edge. As GDPR says, You need to have a cutting edge environment. And if you don't, if you cannot check that box you do not move forward. Commvault has that. And this is one less thing that I have to worry about when choosing Metallic to do my backup of O365. >> So thank you for that, Tim. So Manoj, thinking about what you just heard from Isabelle and Tim, you know, kind of fitting into a company's cloud or hybrid cloud, more importantly, strategy, you were talking before about this. "And", in other words, it's not an either or it's not a zero sum game. It's simpatico, if you will. I wonder if you could elaborate. >> Yeah, no The Power of And, Dave, I'm very proud of that. You know, when I think of The Power of And I think of actually folks like Tim, our customers and Commonwealth first, right. And, and really that, that need for choice. So for example, you know, customers on various different paths to the cloud we kind of homogenize it and say, they're on a cloud journey or they're on a digital transformation journey, but each journey looks different. And so part of that, "And", as Isabella was saying, is really the ability to meet them where they are in that journey. So for example, you know, do you, go in there and say, Hey, you know what, I'm going to be some customers 100% multi-cloud or single cloud even. And that includes SaaS applications and my infrastructure running as a service. So there's a natural fit there saying great all your data protection. You're not going to be running software appliances for that. So you've got to data protection, data management as a service that Metallic is the able to offer across the whole S state. And that's, you know, that's probably a small set of customers, but rapidly growing. Then you see a lot more customers were saying I'm going to do away as you're talking about but the emails are where I'm going to move to office 365, leverage the power of teams. And there's a Shared Responsibility Model there which is different than an On-Prem data protection use case. And so they're, they're able to just add on Metallic to the existing Commonwealth environment, whether it's a Commonwealth software or HyperScale, and connect the two. So it's a single integrated experience. And then you kind of go to the other end of the spectrum and say, great customers all in on a SaaS delivered data protection, as you know, and you hear a lot from a lot of your guests and we hear from our customers, there's still a lot of data sitting out there, you know, 90 plus percent of workloads and data centers increasing edge data workloads. And if you were to back up one of those data workloads and say that the only copy can be in the cloud, then that would take like a 10 day recovery isolation. You know, we have some competitors who say that then that's what they have. Our flexibility, our ability to kind of bring in the Hyper-Scale deployment and just, you know, dock it into Metallic, and have a local copy, instant recovery, SLA, remote, you know, backup copy in the cloud for ransomware, or your worst case scenario. That's the kind of flexibility. So all those are scenarios we're really seeing with our customers. And that's kind of really the power advantage. A very unique part of our portfolio, but, you know, companies can have portfolio products, but to have a single integrated offering with that flexibility, that kind of, depending on the use case, you can start here and grow into a different point. That's really the unique part of the power event. Yeah, 10 day RTO just doesn't cut it, but Timmy, maybe you could weigh in here. Why, What was the catalyst for you adopting Metallic and maybe you could share what was the business impact there? >> Well, the catalyst and impact, obviously two different things. The catalyst, when we look at it, there was a lot of what are we going to do with this? We have an environment, we need to back it up, and how are we going to approach this? So we looked at it from a few different standpoints, and of course, when it boils down to it, one of the major reasons was the financial. But when we started looking at everything else that we have available to us and the flexibility that Commvault has in rolling out new solutions, this really was a no brainer at this point. We are able to essentially back up new features and new products, as soon as they're available. Within our Metallic environment, we are running the activate. We are running the the self-service for the end users to where they can actually recover their own files. We are adding the teams into it to be able to recover and perform these backups for teams. And I want to step aside really quick and mentioned something about this because I'd been with, you know, Metallic for a long time and I'd been waiting for this. We've been waiting for an ability to do these backups and anyone I know Manoj knows that I've been waiting for it. And you know, Commvault came back to me a while back and they said, we just have to wait for the API. We have to wait for Microsoft releases. Well, I follow the news. I saw Microsoft released the API, and I think it may have been two days later. Good. Commvault reached out to me and said, Hey we got it available. Are you ready to do this? And that sort of turned around that sort of flexibility being on top of new applications with that, with Salesforce, that is, you know, just not necessarily the reason why I adopted Metallic but one of those things that puts a smile on my face because I adopted Metallic. >> Well, that's an interesting story. I mean, you get the SDKs and if you're a leader you get them, you know, you can put the resources on it and you're ready when, when the product, you know, comes to GA. Manoj, I wonder if we could talk about just the notion of backing up SaaS, part of the announcements today included within Metallic included backup and offerings for Dynamics 365. But my question is why support Dynamics specifically in SaaS apps generally? I mean, customers might say, doesn't my SaaS provider protect my data? Why do I need a third party? And, and the second part of that question is why Commvault? >> Dave a great question as always. I'll start with the second part of the question. It's really three words the Shared Responsibility Model. And, you know, a lot of times our customers as they go into the cloud model they really start understanding that there is something that you're getting a lot of advantages the certain things you don't have to do, but the Shared Responsibility Model is what every cloud and SaaS provider will indoctrinate in its S&As. And certainly the application data is owned by the customer. And the meaning of that is not something that, you know, some SaaS provider can understand. And so that requires specialized skills. And that's a partnership. We've done this now very successfully with Microsoft and LG 65, we've added support for Salesforce, and we see a rapid customer adoption because of that Shared Responsibility Model. If you have, some kind of, an admin issue as we have seen in the news somebody changed their team setting and then lost all their chat. And then that data is discoverable. And you, the customer is responsible for making sure that data is discoverable or ransomware attacks. Again, recovering that SaaS data is your responsibility because the attack could be coming in from your instance not from the SaaS provider. So those are the reasons. Dynamics is, you know, one of the fastest growing SaaS applications from a business applications perspective out there. And as we looked at our roadmap, and you look at at the right compliment, what is the right adjacency, we're seeing this part of Microsoft's Business Application Suite growing, you know, as millions of users out there and it's rapidly growing. And it's also integrated with the rest of the Microsoft family. So we're now, you know, proud to say that we support all three Microsoft clouds, Microsoft Azure, or 365, Dynamics. Those applications are increasingly integrated so we're seeing commonality in customer base and that's a business critical data. And so customers are looking to manage the data, have solutions that they can be sure they can leverage. It's not just protecting data from worst-case scenarios. In the case of some of the apps like Dynamics, we offer a support, like setting up the staging environment. So it's improving productivity of the application admins, and that's really kind of that the value we're bringing able to bring to the table. >> Yeah. You know, that Shared Responsibility Model. I'm glad you brought that up because I think it's oftentimes misunderstood but when you talk to CSOS, they understand it well. They'll tell you the shared responsibility is my responsibility. You know, maybe the cloud provider will secure the object storage bucket for the physical space, but it's on me. So that's really important. So thank you for that. Isabelle, last question, the roadmap, you know, how do you see Commvault's, Metallic SaaS portfolio evolving? What can you tell us? >> Oh, well, it's, it has a big strategic, you know, impact on Commvault for sure on the first portfolio first because of all of our existing customers as you mentioned earlier, 25 years, it's a lot of customers are somehow some workload as SaaS. And so the ability without, you know, adding more complexity without adding another vendor just to be able to protect them in one take, and as teams they bring a smile to his face is really important for us. The second is also a lot of customers come to Commvault for Metallic. This is the first time enter the Commvault community and Commvault family. And as they start protecting their assessed application they realize that they could leverage the same application to protect their own premised data as well. So back to The Power of And, and without writing off their past investments, you know, going to the cloud at the pace they want. So from that perspective, there is a big impact on our customer community the thing is that Metallic it brings I don't know Manoj is way too humble, but, you know, he don't go to this customer every quarter. And, you know, we have added 24 countries to the portfolio, to the product. So we see a rapid adoption. And so obviously back to your question, we see the impacts of Metallic growing and growing fast because of the market demand, because of the rapid innovation we can take the Commvault technology and put it in the SaaS model and our customers really like it. So I'm very excited. I think it's going to be, you know, a great innovation, a great positive impact for customers, and our new customers we're welcoming, which by the way I think half, Manoj correct me, but I think half of the Metallic customer at Commvault and the other half are new to our family. So, they're very bullish about this. And it's just the beginning, as you know, we are 25 years old, or sorry, 25 years young, and looking forward to the next 25. >> Well, I can confirm, you know, we have a data partner survey, partner ETR, Enterprise Technology Research, and I was looking at the Commvault data and it shows within the cloud segment, when you cut the data by cloud, you're actually accelerating, the spending momentum is accelerating. And I think it's a function of, you know, some of the acquisitions you've made, some of the moves you made in integration. So congratulations on 25 years and you know, you're riding the correct wave, Isabelle, Manoj, Tim, thanks so much for coming in theCUBE. It was great to have you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you Dave. >> I really appreciate it. >> And thank you everybody for watching. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE. We'll see you next time. (Upbeat Music)

>>From around the globe presenting the convergence of file and object brought to you by pure storage. Okay. >>We're back with the convergence of file and object and a power panel. This is a special content program made possible by pure storage. And co-created with the cube. Now in this series, what we're doing is we're exploring the coming together of file and object storage, trying to understand the trends that are driving this convergence, the architectural considerations that users should be aware of and which use cases make the most sense for so-called unified fast file in object storage. And with me are three great guests to unpack these issues. Garrett bell center is the data center solutions architect he's with CDW. Scott Sinclair is a senior analyst at enterprise strategy group. He's got deep experience on enterprise storage and brings that independent analyst perspective. And Matt Burr is back with us, gentlemen, welcome to the program. >>Thank you. >>Hey Scott, let me, let me start with you, uh, and get your perspective on what's going on in the market with, with object to cloud huge amount of unstructured data out there. It lives in files. Give us your independent view of the trends that you're seeing out there. >>Well, Dave, you know where to start, I mean, surprise, surprise data's growing. Um, but one of the big things that we've seen is that we've been talking about data growth for what decades now, but what's really fascinating is or changed is because of the digital economy, digital business, digital transformation, whatever you call it. Now, people are not just storing data. They actually have to use it. And so we see this in trends like analytics and artificial intelligence. And what that does is it's just increasing the demand for not only consolidation of massive amounts of storage that we've seen for awhile, but also the demand for incredibly low latency access to that storage. And I think that's one of the things that we're seeing, that's driving this need for convergence, as you put it of having multiple protocols can Solidated onto one platform, but also the need for high performance access to that data. >>Thank you for that. A great setup. I got, like I wrote down three topics that we're going to unpack as a result of that. So Garrett, let me, let me go to you. Maybe you can give us the perspective of what you see with customers is, is this, is this like a push where customers are saying, Hey, listen, I need to converge my file and object. Or is it more a story where they're saying, Garrett, I have this problem. And then you see unified file and object as a solution. >>Yeah, I think, I think for us, it's, you know, taking that consultative approach with our customers and really kind of hearing pain around some of the pipelines, the way that they're going to market with data today and kind of what are the problems that they're seeing. We're also seeing a lot of the change driven by the software vendors as well. So really being able to support a dis-aggregated design where you're not having to upgrade and maintain everything as a single block has been a place where we've seen a lot of customers pivot to where they have more flexibility as they need to maintain larger volumes of data and higher performance data, having the ability to do that separate from compute and cash. And some of those other layers are, is really critical. >>So, Matt, I wonder if you could follow up on that. So, so Gary was talking about this dis-aggregated design, so I like it, you know, distributed cloud, et cetera, but then we're talking about bringing things together in one place, right? So square that circle. How does this fit in with this hyper distributed cloud edge that's getting built out? >>Yeah. You know, I mean, I could give you the easy answer on that, but I can also pass it back to Garrett in the sense that, you know, Garrett, maybe it's important to talk about, um, elastic and Splunk and some of the things that you're seeing in, in that world and, and how that, I think the answer today, the question I think you can give, you can give a pretty qualified answer relative to what your customers are seeing. >>Oh, that'd be great, please. >>Yeah, absolutely. No, no problem at all. So, you know, I think with, um, Splunk kind of moving from its traditional design and classic design, whatever you want to, you want to call it up into smart store? Um, that was kind of one of the first that we saw kind of make that move towards kind of separating object out. And I think, you know, a lot of that comes from their own move to the cloud and updating their code to basically take advantage of object object in the cloud. Um, but we're starting to see, you know, with like Vertica Ian, for example, um, elastic other folks taking that same type of approach where in the past we were building out many to use servers. We were jamming them full of, uh, you know, SSDs and then DME drives. Um, that was great, but it doesn't really scale. >>And it kind of gets into that same problem that we see with hyperconvergence a little bit where it's, you know, you're all, you're always adding something maybe that you didn't want to add. Um, so I think it, you know, again, being driven by software is really kind of where we're seeing the world open up there. Um, but that whole idea of just having that as a hub and a central place where you can then leverage that out to other applications, whether that's out to the edge for machine learning or AI applications to take advantage of it. I think that's where that convergence really comes back in. Um, but I think like Scott mentioned earlier, it's really folks are now doing things with the data where before I think they were really storing and trying to figure out what are we going to actually do with it when we need to do something with it? So this is making it possible. >>Yeah. And Dave, if I could just sort of tack onto the end of the Garrett's answer there, you know, in particular verdict with beyond mode, the ability to leverage sharted sub clusters, give you, um, you know, sort of an advantage in terms of being able to isolate performance, hotspots you an advantage to that as being able to do that on a flash blade, for example. So, um, sharted, sub clusters allow you to sort of say, I am, you know, I am going to give prioritization to, you know, this particular element of my application in my dataset, but I can still share those, share that data across those, across those sub clusters. So, um, you know, as you see, you know, Vertica with the non-motor, >>You see Splunk advanced with, with smart store, um, you know, these are all sort of advancements that are, you know, it's a chicken and the egg thing. Um, they need faster storage, they need, you know, sort of a consolidated data storage data set. Um, and, and that's what sort of allows these things to drive forward. Yes, >>The verdict eon mode, there was a no, no, it's the ability to separate compute and storage and scale independently. I think, I think Vertica, if they're, if they're not the only one, they're one of the only ones I think they might even be the only one that does that in the cloud and on prem and that sort of plays into this distributed nature of this hyper distributed cloud. I sometimes call it and I'm interested in the, in the data pipeline. And I wonder Scott, if we can talk a little bit about that maybe where unified object and file fund. I mean, I'm envisioning this, this distributed mesh and then, you know, UFO is sort of a note on that, that I can tap when I need it. But, but Scott, what are you seeing as the state of infrastructure as it relates to the data pipeline and the trends there? >>Yeah, absolutely. Dave, so w when I think data pipeline, I immediately gravitate to analytics or, or machine learning initiatives. Right. And so one of the big things we see, and this is, it's an interesting trend. It seems, you know, we continue to see increased investment in AI, increase interest and people think, and as companies get started, they think, okay, well, what does that mean? Well, I gotta go hire a data scientist. Okay. Well that data scientist probably needs some infrastructure. And what they end, what often happens in these environments is where it ends up being a bespoke environment or a one-off environment. And then over time organizations run into challenges. And one of the big challenges is the data science team or people whose jobs are outside of it, spend way too much time trying to get the infrastructure, um, to, to keep up with their demands and predominantly around data performance. So one of the, one of the ways organizations that especially have artificial intelligence workloads in production, and we found this in our research have started mitigating that is by deploying flash all across the data pipe. We have. Yeah, >>We have data on this. Sorry to interrupt, but Pat, if you could bring up that, that chart, that would be great. Um, so take us through this, uh, Scott and, and share with us what we're looking at here. >>Yeah, absolutely. So, so Dave, I'm glad you brought this up. So we did this study. Um, I want to say late last year, uh, one of the things we looked at was across artificial intelligence environments. Now, one thing that you're not seeing on this slide is we went through and we asked all around the data pipeline and we saw flash everywhere. But I thought this was really telling because this is around data lakes. And when many people think about the idea of a data Lake, they think about it as a repository. It's a place where you keep maybe cold data. And what we see here is especially within production environments, a pervasive use of flash stores. So I think that 69% of organizations are saying their data Lake is mostly flash or all flash. And I think we had 0% that don't have any flash in that environment. So organizations are out that thing that flashes in essential technology to allow them to harness the value of their data. >>So Garrett, and then Matt, I wonder if you could chime in as well. We talk about digital transformation and I, I sometimes call it, you know, the COVID forced March to digital transformation. And, and I'm curious as to your perspective on things like machine learning and the adoption, um, and Scott, you may have a perspective on this as well. You know, we had to pivot, he had to get laptops. We had to secure the end points, you know, VDI, those became super high priorities. What happened to, you know, injecting AI into my applications and, and machine learning. Did that go in the back burner? Was that accelerated along with the need to digitally transform, uh, Garrett, I wonder if you could share with us what you saw with, with customers last year? >>Yeah. I mean, I think we definitely saw an acceleration. Um, I think folks are in, in my market are, are still kind of figuring out how they inject that into more of a widely distributed business use case. Um, but again, this data hub and allowing folks to now take advantage of this data that they've had in these data lakes for a long time. I agree with Scott. I mean, many of the data lakes that we have were somewhat flashing, accelerated, but they were typically really made up of large capacity, uh, slower spinning nearline drives, um, accelerated with some flash, but I'm really starting to see folks now look at some of those older Hadoop implementations and really leveraging new ways to look at how they consume data. And many of those redesigned customers are coming to us, wanting to look at all flash solutions. So we're definitely seeing it. And we're seeing an acceleration towards folks trying to figure out how to actually use it in more of a business sense now, or before I feel it goes a little bit more skunkworks kind of people dealing with, uh, you know, in a much smaller situation, maybe in the executive offices trying to do some testing and things. >>Scott you're nodding away. Anything you can add in here. >>Yeah. So, well, first off, it's great to get that confirmation that the stuff we're seeing in our research, Garrett seeing, you know, out in the field and in the real world, um, but you know, as it relates to really the past year, it's been really fascinating. So one of the things we, we studied at ESG is it buying intentions. What are things, what are initiatives that companies plan to invest in? And at the beginning of 2020, we saw heavy interest in machine learning initiatives. Then you transition to the middle of 2020 in the midst of COVID. Uh, some organizations continued on that path, but a lot of them had the pivot, right? How do we get laptops, everyone? How do we continue business in this new world? Well, now as we enter into 2021, and hopefully we're coming out of this, uh, you know, the, the pandemic era, um, we're getting into a world where organizations are pivoting back towards these strategic investments around how do I maximize the usage of data and actually accelerating those because they've seen the importance of, of digital business initiatives over the past >>Year. >>Yeah, Matt, I mean, when we exited 2019, we saw a narrowing of experimentation in our premise was, you know, that that organizations are going to start now operationalizing all their digital transformation experiments. And, and then we had a 10 month Petri dish on, on digital. So what are you, what are you seeing in this regard? >>It's 10 months, Petri dish is an interesting way to interesting way to describe it. Um, you know, we, we saw another, there's another, there's another candidate for pivot in there around ransomware as well. Right. Um, you know, security entered into the mix, uh, which took people's attention away from some of this as well. I mean, look, I I'd like to bring this up just a level or two, um, because what we're actually talking about here is progress, right? And, and progress is an, is an inevitability. Um, you know, whether it's whether, whether you believe that it's by 20, 25 or you, or you think it's 20, 35 or 2050, it doesn't matter. We're on a forced March to the eradication of desk. And that is happening in many ways. Uh, you know, in many ways, um, due to some of the things that Garrett was referring to and what Scott was referring to in terms of what our customer's demands for, how they're going to actually leverage the data that they have. >>And that brings me to kind of my final point on this, which is we see customers in three phases. There's the first phase where they say, Hey, I have this large data store, and I know there's value in there. I don't know how to get to it. Or I have this large data store and I've started a project to get value out of it. And we failed. Those could be customers that, um, you know, marched down the dupe, the Hadoop path early on. And they, they, they got some value out of it. Um, but they realized that, you know, HDFS, wasn't going to be a modern protocol going forward for any number of reasons. You know, the first being, Hey, if I have gold dot master, how do I know that I have gold dot four is consistent with my gold dot master? So data consistency matters. >>And then you have the sort of third group that says, I have these large datasets. I know how to extract value from them. And I'm already on to the Vertica is the elastics, you know, the Splunks et cetera. Um, I think those folks are the folks that, that latter group are the folks that kept their, their, their projects going because they were already extracting value from them. The first two groups we were seeing, sort of saying the second half of this year is when we're going to begin really being picking up on these, on these types of initiatives again. >>Well, thank you, Matt, by the way, for, for hitting the escape key, because I think value from data really is what this is all about. And there are some real blockers there that I kind of want to talk about. You've mentioned HDFS. I mean, we were very excited, of course, in the early days of a dupes, many of the concepts were profound, but at the end of the day, it was too complicated. We've got these hyper specialized roles that are, that are serving the business, but it still takes too long. It's, it's too hard to get value from data. And one of the blockers is infrastructure that the complexity of that infrastructure really needs to be abstracted taken up a level. We're starting to see this in, in cloud where you're seeing some of those abstraction layers being built from some of the cloud vendors, but more importantly, a lot of the vendors like pure, Hey, we can do that heavy lifting for you. Uh, and we, you know, we have expertise in engineering to do cloud native. So I'm wondering what you guys see. Maybe Garrett, you could start us off and the other salmon as some of the blockers, uh, to getting value from data and how we're going to address those in the coming decade. >>Yeah. I mean, I think part of it we're solving here obviously with, with pure bringing, uh, you know, flash to a market that traditionally was utilizing a much slower media. Um, you know, the other thing that I, that I see that's very nice with flash blade for example, is the ability to kind of do things, you know, once you get it set up a blade at a time. I mean, a lot of the things that we see from just kind of more of a simplistic approach to this, like a lot of these teams don't have big budgets and being able to kind of break them down into almost a blade type chunk, I think has really kind of allowed folks to get more projects and, and things off the ground because they don't have to buy a full expensive system to run these projects. Um, so that's helped a lot. >>I think the wider use cases have helped a lot. So, um, Matt mentioned ransomware, um, you know, using safe mode as a, as a place to help with ransomware has been a really big growth spot for us. We've got a lot of customers, very interested and excited about that. Um, and the other thing that I would say is bringing dev ops into data is another thing that we're seeing. So kind of that push towards data ops and really kind of using automation and infrastructure as code as a way to now kind of drive things through the system. The way that we've seen with automation through dev ops is, is really an area we're seeing a ton of growth with from a services perspective, >>Guys, any other thoughts on that? I mean, we're, I I'll, I'll tee it up there. I, we are seeing some bleeding edge, which is somewhat counterintuitive, especially from a cost standpoint, organizational changes at some, some companies, uh, think of some of the, the, the, the internet companies that do, uh, music, uh, for instance, and adding podcasts, et cetera. And those are different data products. We're seeing them actually reorganize their data architectures to make them more distributed, uh, and actually put the domain heads, the business heads in charge of the data and the data pipeline. And that is maybe less efficient, but, but it's, again, some of these bleeding edge. What else are you guys seeing out there that might be some harbinger of the next decade? >>Uh, I'll go first. Um, you know, I think specific to, um, the, the construct that you threw out, Dave, one of the things that we're seeing is, um, you know, the, the, the application owner, maybe it's the dev ops person, but it's, you know, maybe it's, it's, it's, it's the application owner through the dev ops person. They're, they're becoming more technical in their understanding of how infrastructure, um, interfaces with their, with their application. I think, um, you know, what, what we're seeing on the flash blade side is we're having a lot more conversations with application people than, um, just it people. It doesn't mean that the, it people aren't there, the it, people are still there for sure if they have to deliver the service, et cetera. Um, but you know, the days of, of it, you know, building up a catalog of services and a business owner subscribing to one of those services, you know, picking, you know, whatever sort of fits their need. >>Um, I don't think that constant, I think that's the construct that changes going forward. The application owner is becoming much more prescriptive about what they want the infrastructure to fit, how they want the infrastructure to fit into their application. Um, and that's a big change. And for, for, um, you know, certainly folks like, like Garrett and CDW, um, you know, they do a good job with this being able to sort of get to the application owner and bring those two sides together. There's a tremendous amount of value there, uh, for us to spend a little bit of a, of a retooling we've traditionally sold to the it side of the house. And, um, you know, we've had to teach ourselves how to go talk the language of, of applications. So, um, you know, I think you pointed out a good, a good, a good construct there, and you know, that that application owner tank playing a much bigger role in what they're expecting from the performance of it, infrastructure I think is, is, is a key, is a key change. >>Interesting. I mean, that definitely is a trend. That's puts you guys closer to the business where the infrastructure team is serving the business, as opposed to sometimes I talked to data experts and they're frustrated, uh, especially data owners or data, product builders who are frustrated that they feel like they have to beg, beg the, the data pipeline team to get, you know, new data sources or get data out. How about the edge? Um, you know, maybe Scott, you can kick us off. I mean, we're seeing, you know, the emergence of, of edge use cases, AI inferencing at the edge, lot of data at the edge. W what are you seeing there and how does this unified object I'll bring us back to that in file fit. >>Wow. Dave, how much time do we have, um, tell me, first of all, Scott, why don't you, why don't you just tell everybody what the edge is? Yeah. You got it all figured out. How much time do you have end of the day. And that's, that's a great question, right? Is if you take a step back and I think it comes back to Dave, something you mentioned it's about extracting value from data. And what that means is when you extract value from data, what it does is as Matt pointed out the, the influencers or the users of data, the application owners, they have more power because they're driving revenue now. And so what that means is from an it standpoint, it's not just, Hey, here are the services you get, use them or lose them, or, you know, don't throw a fit. It is no, I have to, I have to adapt. I have to follow what my application owners me. Now, when you bring that back to the edge, what it means is, is that data is not localized to the data center. I mean, we just went through a nearly 12 month period where >>The entire workforce for most of the companies in this country had went distributed and business continued. So if business is distributed, data is distributed. And that means, that means in the data center, that means at the edge, that means that the cloud, and that means in all other places and tons of places. And what it also means is you have to be able to extract and utilize data anywhere it may be. And I think that's something that we're going to continue to and continue to see. And I think it comes back to, you know, if you think about key characteristics, we've talked about, um, things like performance and scale for years, but we need to start rethinking it because on one hand, we need to get performance everywhere. But also in terms of scale, and this ties back to some of the other initiatives and getting value from data, it's something I call the, the massive success problem. One of the things we see, especially with, with workloads like machine learning is businesses find success with them. And as soon as they do they say, well, I need about 20 of these projects now will all of a sudden that overburdens it organizations, especially across, across core and edge and cloud environments. And so when you look at environments ability to meet performance and scale demands, wherever it needs to be is something that's really important. You know, >>Dave, I'd like to, um, just sort of tie together sort of two things that, um, I think that I heard from Scott and Garrett that I think are important and it's around this concept of scale. Um, you know, some of us are old enough to remember the day when kind of a 10 terabyte blast radius was too big of a blast radius for people to take on, or a terabyte of storage was considered to be, um, you know, uh, uh, an exemplary budget environment. Right. Um, now we sort of think as terabytes, kind of like we used to think of as gigabytes in some ways, um, petabyte, like you don't have to explain to anybody what a petabyte is anymore. Um, and you know, what's on the horizon and it's not far are our exabyte type dataset workloads. Um, and you start to think about what could be in that exabyte of data. >>We've talked about how you extract that value. And we've talked about sort of, um, how you start, but if the scale is big, not everybody's going to start at a petabyte or an exabyte to Garrett's point, the ability to start small and grow into these products, or excuse me, these projects, I think is a, is a really, um, fundamental concept here because you're not going to just go buy five. I'm going to go kick off a five petabyte project, whether you do that on disk or flash, it's going to be expensive, right. But if you could start at a couple of hundred terabytes, not just as a proof of concept, but as something that, you know, you could get predictable value out of that, then you could say, Hey, this either scales linearly, or non-linearly in a way that I can then go map my investments to how I can go dig deeper into this. That's how all of these things are going to, that's how these successful projects are going to start, because the people that are starting with these very large, you know, sort of, um, expansive, you know, Greenfield projects at multi petabyte scale, it's gonna be hard to realize near-term value. Excellent. Uh, >>We we're, we gotta wrap, but, but Garrett, I wonder if you could close it, when you look forward, you talk to customers, do you see this unification of file and object? Is it, is this an evolutionary trend? Is it something that is, that is, that is, that is going to be a lever that customers use. How do you see it evolving over the next two, three years and beyond? >>Yeah, I mean, I think from our perspective, I mean, just from what we're seeing from the numbers within the market, the amount of growth that's happening with unstructured data is really just starting to finally really kind of hit this data delusion or whatever you want to call it that we've been talking about for so many years. Um, it really does seem to now be becoming true, um, as we start to see things scale out and really folks settle into, okay, I'm going to use the cloud to start and maybe train my models, but now I'm going to get it back on prem because of latency or security or whatever the, the, the, um, decision points are there. Um, this is something that is not going to slow down. And I think, you know, folks like pure having the ability to have the tools that they give us, um, do use and bring to market with our customers are, are really key and critical for us. So I see it as a huge growth area and a big focus for us moving forward, >>Guys, great job unpacking a topic that, you know, it's covered a little bit, but I think we, we covered some ground. That is a, that is new. And so thank you so much for those insights and that data really appreciate your time. >>Thanks, Dave. Thanks. Yeah. Thanks, Dave. >>Okay. And thank you for watching the convergence of file and object. Keep it right there. Bright, bright back after the short break.

>>Yeah, >>yeah. Hello and welcome to Day two at Beyond. I am so excited that you've chosen to join the building a vibrant data ecosystem track. I might be just a little bit biased, but I think it's going to be the best track of the day. My name is Mallory Lassen and I run partner Marketing here, a thought spot, and that might give you a little bit of a clue as to why I'm so excited about the four sessions we're about to hear from. We'll start off hearing from two thought spotters on how the power of embrace can allow you to directly query on the cloud data warehouse of your choice Next up. And I shouldn't choose favorites, but I'm very excited to watch Cindy housing moderate a panel off true industry experts. We'll hear from Deloitte Snowflake and Eagle Alfa as they describe how you can enrich your organization's data and better understand and benchmark by using third party data. They may even close off with a prediction or two about the future that could prove to be pretty thought provoking. So I'd stick around for that. Next we'll hear from the cloud juggernaut themselves AWS. We'll even get to see a live demo using TV show data, which I'm pretty sure is near and dear to our hearts. At this point in time and then last, I'm very excited to welcome our customer from T Mobile. They're going to describe how they partnered with whip pro and developed a full solution, really modernizing their analytics and giving self service to so many employees. We'll see what that's done for them. But first, let's go over to James Bell Z and Ana Son on the zero to search session. James, take us away. >>Thanks, Mallory. I'm James Bell C and I look after the solutions engineering and customer success teams have thought spot here in Asia Pacific and Japan today I'm joined by my colleague Anderson to give you a look at just how simple and quick it is to connect thought spot to your cloud data warehouse and extract value from the data within in the demonstration, and I will show you just how we can connect to data, make it simple for the business to search and then search the data itself or within this short session. And I want to point out that everything you're going to see in the demo is Run Live against the Cloud Data Warehouse. In this case, we're using snowflake, and there's no cashing of data or summary tables in terms of what you're going to see. But >>before we >>jump into the demo itself, I just like to provide a very brief overview of the value proposition for thought spot. If you're already familiar with thought spot, this will come as no surprise. But for those new to the platform, it's all about empowering the business to answer their own questions about data in the most simple way possible Through search, the personalized user experience provides a familiar search based way for anyone to get answers to their questions about data, not just the analysts. The search, indexing and ranking makes it easy to find the data you're looking for using business terms that you understand. While the smart ranking constantly adjust the index to ensure the most relevant information is provided to you. The query engine removes the complexity of SQL and complex joint paths while ensuring that users will always get thio the correct answers their questions. This is all backed up by an architecture that's designed to be consumed entirely through a browser with flexibility on deployment methods. You can run thought spot through our thoughts about cloud offering in your own cloud or on premise. The choice is yours, so I'm sure you're thinking that all sounds great. But how difficult is it to get this working? Well, I'm happy to tell you it's super easy. There's just forced steps to unlock the value of your data stored in snowflake, Red Shift, Google, Big Query or any of the other cloud data warehouses that we support. It's a simple is connecting to the Cloud Data Warehouse, choosing what data you want to make available in thought spot, making it user friendly. That column that's called cussed underscore name in the database is great for data management, but when users they're searching for it, they'll probably want to use customer or customer name or account or even client. Also, the business shouldn't need to know that they need to get data from multiple tables or the joint parts needed to get the correct results in thought spot. The worksheet allows you to make all of this simple for the users so they can simply concentrate on getting answers to their questions on Once the worksheet is ready, you can start asking those questions by now. I'm sure you're itching to see this in action. So without further ado, I'm gonna hand over to Anna to show you exactly how this works over to you. Anna, >>In this demo, I'm going to go to cover three areas. First, we'll start with how simple it is to get answers to your questions in class spot. Then we'll have a look at how to create a new connection to Cloud Data Warehouse. And lastly, how to create a use of friendly data layer. Let's get started to get started. I'm going to show you the ease off search with thoughts Spot. As you can see thought spot is or were based. I'm simply lobbying. Divide a browser. This means you don't need to install an application. Additionally, possible does not require you to move any data. So all your data stays in your cloud data warehouse and doesn't need to be moved around. Those sports called differentiator is used experience, and that is primarily search. As soon as we come into the search bar here, that's what suggestion is guiding uses through to the answers? Let's let's say that I would wanna have a look at spending across the different product categories, and we want Thio. Look at that for the last 12 months, and we also want to focus on a trending on monthly. And just like that, we get our answer straightaway without alive from Snowflake. Now let's say we want to focus on 11 product category here. We want to have a look at the performance for finished goods. As I started partially typing my search them here, Thoughts was already suggesting the data value that's available for me to use as a filter. The indexing behind the scene actually index everything about the data which allowed me to get to my data easily and quickly as an end user. Now I've got my next to my data answer here. I can also go to the next level of detail in here. In third spot to navigate on the next level of detail is simply one click away. There's no concept off drill path, pre defined drill path in here. That means we've ordered data that's available to me from Snowflake. I'm able to navigate to the level of detail. Allow me to answer those questions. As you can see as a business user, I don't need to do any coding. There's no dragon drop to get to the answer that I need right here. And she can see other calculations are done on the fly. There is no summary tables, no cubes building are simply able to ask the questions. Follow my train or thoughts, and this provides a better use experience for users as anybody can search in here, the more we interact with the spot, the more it learns about my search patterns and make those suggestions based on the ranking in here and that a returns on the fly from Snowflake. Now you've seen example of a search. Let's go ahead and have a look at How do we create a connection? Brand new one toe a cloud at a warehouse. Here we are here, let me add a new connection to the data were healthy by just clicking at new connection. Today we're going to connect Thio retail apparel data step. So let's start with the name. As you can see, we can easily connect to all the popular data warehouse easily. By just one single click here today, we're going to click to Snowflake. I'm gonna ask some detail he'd let me connect to my account here. Then we quickly enter those details here, and this would determine what data is available to me. I can go ahead and specify database to connect to as well, but I want to connect to all the tables and view. So let's go ahead and create a connection. Now the two systems are talking to each other. I can see all the data that's available available for me to connect to. Let's go ahead and connect to the starter apparel data source here and expanding that I can see all the data tables as available to me. I could go ahead and click on any table here, so there's affect herbal containing all the cells information. I also have the store and product information here I can make. I can choose any Data column that I want to include in my search. Available in soft spot, what can go ahead and select entire table, including all the data columns. I will. I would like to point out that this is important because if any given table that you have contains hundreds of columns it it may not be necessary for you to bring across all of those data columns, so thoughts would allow you to select what's relevant for your analysis. Now that's selected all the tables. Let's go ahead and create a connection. Now force what confirms the data columns that we have selected and start to read the medic metadata from Snowflake and automatically building that search index behind the scene. Now, if your daughter does contain information such as personal, identifiable information, then you can choose to turn those investing off. So none of that would be, um, on a hot spots platform. Now that my tables are ready here, I can actually go ahead and search straight away. Let's go ahead and have a look at the table here. I'm going to click on the fact table heat on the left hand side. It shows all the data column that we've brought across from Snowflake as well as the metadata that also brought over here as well. A preview off the data shows me off the data that's available on my snowflake platform. Let's take a look at the joints tap here. The joint step shows may relationship that has already been defined the foreign and primary care redefining snowflake, and we simply inherited he in fourth spot. However, you don't have toe define all of this relationship in snowflake to add a joint. He is also simple and easy. If I click on at a joint here, I simply select the table that I wanted to create a connection for. So select the fact table on the left, then select the product table onto the right here and then simply selected Data column would wish to join those two tables on Let's select Product ID and clicking next, and that's always required to create a joint between those two tables. But since we already have those strong relationship brought over from Snow Flag, I won't go ahead and do that Now. Now you have seen how the tables have brought over Let's go and have a look at how easy is to search coming to search here. Let's start with selecting the data table would brought over expanding the tables. You can see all the data column that we have previously seen from snowflake that. Let's say I wanna have a look at sales in last year. Let's start to type. And even before I start to type anything in the search bar passport already showing me all those suggestions, guiding me to the answers that's relevant to my need. Let's start with having a look at sales for 2019. And I want to see this across monthly for my trend and out off all of these product line he. I also want to focus on a product line called Jackets as I started partially typing the product line jacket for sport, already proactively recommending me all the matches that it has. So all the data values available for me to search as a filter here, let's go ahead and select jacket. And just like that, I get my answer straight away from Snowflake. Now that's relatively simple. Let's try something a little bit more complex. Let's say I wanna have a look at sales comparing across different regions, um, in us. So I want compare West compared to Southwest, and then I want to combat it against Midwest as well as against based on still and also want to see these trending monthly as well. Let's have look at monthly. If you can see that I can use terms such as monthly Key would like that to look at different times. Buckets. Now all of these is out of the box. As she can see, I didn't have to do any indexing. I didn't have to do any formulas in here. As long as there is a date column in the data set, crossbows able to dynamically calculate those time bucket so she can see. Just by doing that search, I was able to create dynamic groupings segment of different sales across the United States on the sales data here. Now that we've done doing search, you can see that across different tables here might not be the most user friendly layer we don't want uses having to individually select tables. And then, um, you know, selecting different columns with cryptic names in here. We want to make this easy for users, and that's when a work ship comes in. But those were were sheet encapsulate all of the data you want to make available for search as well as formulas, as well as business terminologies that the users are familiar with for a specific business area. Let's start with adding the daughter columns we need for this work shape. Want to slack all of the tables that we just brought across from Snowflake? Expanding each of those tables from the facts type of want sales from the fax table. We want sales as well as the date. Then on the store's table. We want store name as well as the stay eating, then expanding to the product we want name and finally product type. Now that we've got our work shit ready, let's go ahead and save it Now, in order to provide best experience for users to search, would want to optimize the work sheet here. So coming to the worksheet here, you can see the data column that we have selected. Let's start with changing this name to be more user friendly, so let's call it fails record. They will want to call it just simply date, store name, call it store, and then we also want state to be in lower case product name. Simply call it product and finally, product type can also further optimize this worksheet by adding, uh, other areas such as synonyms, so allow users to use terms of familiar with to do that search. So in sales, let's call this revenue and we all cannot also further configure the geo configuration. So want to identify state in here as state for us. And finally, we want Thio. Also add more friendly on a display on a currency. So let's change the currency type. I want to show it in U. S. Dollars. That's all we need. So let's try to change and let's get started on our search now coming back to the search here, Let's go ahead. Now select out worksheet that we have just created. If I don't select any specific tables or worksheets, force what Simply a search across everything that's available to you. Expanding the worksheet. We can see all of the data columns in heat that's we've made available and clicking on search bar for spot already. Reckon, making those recommendations in here to start off? Let's have a look at I wanna have a look at the revenue across different states for here today, so let's use the synonym that we have defined across the different states and we want to see this for here today. Um yesterday as well. I know that I also want to focus on the product line jacket that we have seen before, so let's go ahead and select jacket. Yeah, and just like that, I was able to get the answer straight away in third spot. Let's also share some data label here so we can see exactly the Mount as well to state that police performance across us in here. Now I've got information about the sales of jackets on the state. I want to ask next level question. I want to draw down to the store that has been selling these jackets right Click e. I want to drill down. As you can see out of the box. I didn't have to pre define any drill paths on a target. Reports simply allow me to navigate to the next level of detail to answer my own questions. One Click away. Now I see the same those for the jackets by store from year to date, and this is directly from snowflake data life Not gonna start relatively simple question. Let's go ahead and ask a question that's a little bit more complex. Imagine one. Have a look at Silas this year, and I want to see that by month, month over month or so. I want to see a month. Yeah, and I also want to see that our focus on a sale on the last week off the month. So that's where we see most. Sales comes in the last week off the month, so I want to focus on that as well. Let's focus on last week off each month. And on top of that, I also want to only focus on the top performing stores from last year. So I want to focus on the top five stores from last year, so only store in top five in sales store and for last year. And with that, we also want to focus just on the populist product types as well. So product type. Now, this could be very reasonable question that a business user would like to ask. But behind the scenes, this could be quite complex. But First part takes cares, or the complexity off the data allow the user to focus on the answer they want to get to. If we quickly have a look at the query here, this shows how forceful translate the search that were put in there into queries into that, we can pass on the snowflake. As you can see, the search uses all three tables as well shooting, utilizing the joints and the metadata layer that we have created. Switching over to the sequel here, this sequel actually generate on the fly pass on the snowflake in order for the snowflake to bring back to result and presented in the first spot. I also want to mention that in the latest release Off Hot Spot, we also bringing Embraced um, in the latest version, Off tosspot 6.3 story Q is also coming to embrace. That means one click or two analysis. Those who are in power users to monitor key metrics on kind of anomalies, identify leading indicators and isolate trends, as you can see in a matter of minutes. Using thought spot, we were able to connect to most popular on premise or on cloud data warehouses. We were able to get blazing fast answers to our searches, allow us to transform raw data to incite in the speed off thoughts. Ah, pass it back to you, James. >>Thanks, Anna. Wow, that was awesome. It's incredible to see how much committee achieved in such a short amount of time. I want to close this session by referring to a customer example of who, For those of you in the US, I'm sure you're familiar with who, Lou. But for our international audience, who Lou our immediate streaming service similar to a Netflix or Disney Plus, As you can imagine, the amount of data created by a service like this is massive, with over 32 million subscribers and who were asking questions of over 16 terabytes of data in snow folk. Using regular B I tools on top of this size of data would usually mean using summary or aggregate level data, but with thoughts. What? Who are able to get granular insights into the data, allowing them to understand what they're subscribes of, watching how their campaigns of performing and how their programming is being received, and take advantage of that data to reduce churn and increase revenue. So thank you for your time today. Through the session, you've seen just how simple it is to get thought spot up and running on your cloud data warehouse toe. Unlock the value of your data and minutes. If you're interested in trying this on your own data, you can sign up for a free 14 day trial of thoughts. What cloud? Right now? Thanks again, toe Anna for such awards and demo. And if you have any questions, please feel free to let us know. >>Awesome. Thank you, James and Anna. That was incredible. To see it in action and how it all came together on James. We do actually have a couple of questions in our last few minutes here, Anna. >>The first one will be >>for you. Please. This will be a two part question. One. What Cloud Data Warehouses does embrace support today. And to can we use embrace to connect to multiple data warehouses. Thank you, Mallory. Today embrace supports. Snowflake Google, Big query. Um, Red shift as you assign that Teradata advantage and essay Bahana with more sources to come in the future. And, yes, you can connect on live query from notable data warehouses. Most of our enterprise customers have gotta spread across several data warehouses like just transactional data and red Shift and South will start. It's not like, excellent on James will have the final question go to you, You please. Are there any size restrictions for how much data thought spot can handle? And does one need to optimize their database for performance, for example? Aggregations. >>Yeah, that's a great question. So, you know, as we've just heard from our customer, who there's, there's really no limits in terms of the amount of data that you can bring into thoughts Ponant connect to. We have many customers that have, in excess of 10 terabytes of data that they're connecting to in those cloud data warehouses. And, yeah, there's there's no need to pre aggregate or anything. Thought Spot works best with that transactional level data being able to get right down into the details behind it and surface those answers to the business uses. >>Excellent. Well, thank you both so much. And for everyone at home watching thank you for joining us for that session. You have a few minutes toe. Get up, get some water, get a bite of food. What? You won't want to miss this next panel in it. We have our chief data strategy off Officer Cindy, Housing speaking toe experts in the field from Deloitte Snowflake and Eagle Alfa. All on best practices for leveraging external data sources. See you there

>>thank you. I'm very happy to be here. It's no surprise that Kevin, 19, has changed every business, but how it's changed Business is very strong, Matic Lee, according to the company. Fortunately, we are seeing some interesting themes and some interesting opportunities that really spend across companies. So today's session we're going to talk to three different companies that have had three different experiences and look at what some of the opportunities, challenges and consistencies across these companies are. And I'm thrilled to be here today with three amazing presenters that have very different stories about how they embraced >>the >>challenges that covered 19 created and turned it into opportunity to get started. I'd like to introduce Dr Albert Chan. He is the vice president and chief of digital patient experience at Sutter Health. Following Dr Chan, we have Sean Flaherty, who is the head of technical services, the Kraft Heinz Company, and rounding out our Panelists. Today we have Jennifer Brent, the director, business operations and strategic planning for global real estate at H P E. Thank you everybody, for sharing your time and attention with us today. Let's jump right in now. As I said, we are seeing a great deal of change and opportunity. So I'm gonna ask you to the Panelists to talk a little bit about what the organization is and some of the challenges that they have experienced over the course of 2020. Dr. Shen, let's start with you. Could you please introduce us to Sutter Health and the challenges you faced over the course of 2020? >>Thank you, Mayor Bell. It's great to join everyone. Uh, center Health is a integrated delivery network in Northern California. We serve over 100 diverse communities with 14,000 clinicians and 53,000 employees. Um, and it's a great opportunity to serve our community. Thank you. >>Perfect. Uh, Dr Chen, that was great intro. Sean, could you pick up and tell us a little bit about what's going on at Kraft Heinz and what you've experienced? >>Uh huh. I'm Sean flirty, and I'm currently the head of technical services. I previously was the head of manufacturing for Oscar Mar. I've been with Kraft Heinz for over 30 plus years, working across the supply chain both internationally and domestically. Kraft Heinz is 150 years old. We make some of the most beloved products consumed by all of our employees. And we have made some major big brands. We have craft. We have pines. We have Oscar Mayer planters, bagel bites or write a classical Who laid Philadelphia? Jeff Maxwell house. That's just to name a few little my current role. I'm in charge of technical services, I said, which includes engineering, maintenance, capital spend transformational manufacturing, maintenance and all the productivity pipeline that goes with >>certainly a very wide purview for a big product line. Uh, Gen Brent H P E. Tell us a little bit about what you were doing. >>Thank you, Maribel. Appreciate it. So hopefully everyone is familiar with Hewlett Packard. Enterprise are our main mission is really to advance the way that people live and work through technology. Um, and one of the ways that I'm supporting the company, I work for the global real estate organization. Um, global real estate is is obviously a sort of a key area of focus for everyone. Um, thes days, you know, given the cove in 19 impacts that you're speaking to, Maribel. Um, HP has over 200 sites globally. We operate in over 50 countries. Um, with an employee base of over 65,000. So what we're really focused on right now in real estate is how do we sort of take what's happening right now with Cove in 19. How do we advance? You know, the way that our employees or team members live and work? How do we sort of capitalize on this particular situation and think about what the future of work looks like And how we start to design for and deliver that now? Um, so that's really what what me and the team are focused on. >>Great. So I'm gonna pick up with Dr Chan because, you know, it is covered. 19. And there's been a lot going on in the health care industry. Clearly, um, you know, in your case, could you talk a little bit about what happened when cove it hit? What kind of plans did you have to develop? Because it really wasn't businesses usual. >>Thank you, Maribel. Yes, and indeed you're right. It's a business. Not usual. But frankly, it's something in healthcare. We've always had the face. Whether regards the fires or other disasters, thistle is a unique time for us to being involved in the most intimate parts of people's lives, and this is no different. Um, let me let me harking back to a story. Actually, I think, which illustrate the point. Eso I was in clinic in late February and saw two patients who drove straight from the airport to my clinic. They had respiratory symptoms. Their daughter was concerned about their health and I got advanced warning. I've been reading about this thing called Cove in, and so I had to wear a mask gown, face shield, you name it. And I realized then and there that we had a unique challenge that was confronting us here instead of health. Which is how do we protect the patients and our inclinations as well. So, um, during the week of my birthday, actually, we, um, marshals up a group of people over 200 folks, many of whom I've never met to this day actually came together and designed a telehealth strategy to rapidly respond to covet. We took we typically, we one of things we were doing is telemedicine. And prior to covet, we had 20 video visits per day on average, and after co vid 19, we saw up to 7000 video visits per day. So the rapper was tremendous and it was over. We were essentially given this challenge over a four week period instead of a two year roadmap, which is what our initial intent waas. We trained over 4700 questions to deliver care virtually to meet the challenge, >>that it's simply amazing and shows the power of both the will of individuals and technology coming together to make amazing things happen. And I imagine, Sean, um, in your case, you probably had, well, different something similar in the sense that it's food manufacturing. It's not something that can easily be done remotely. Can you tell us a little bit about what you been experiencing during coded 19? >>Yes, eso. As you said, manufacturing is not something that's not very easily remote. And so we had to quickly address the pandemic and make sure that our operation could stay intact and make our employees feel safe and healthy and make sure that that happens. I mean, across our manufacturing facilities we have put in, um, we require face mask. We require health check assessments. We require a temperature check before anybody enters our facilities. We put digital signage across the facility to encourage social distancing. We've taken our break rooms and redid those so that there's, uh, social distance inside with plexiglass. We staggered are break hours or lunch hours so that people don't congratulate inside there. And then we also have mailed newsletters to ever employees home in both English and Spanish to promote yourself social distancing and wearing face masks outside of work so that they could protect their communities and their families. We've limited visits to a plant to one person per week, and that person can only go to a plant once a week we've done came meeting. We've done team meetings inside of our plants to promote social distancing. We've done lots of activities inside of a manufacturing, please sure that our people are safe and then they go home the same when they came and we don't have any transmission of the virus inside of our facility. >>I think this is so critical because you want people to be able to go to work, to feel safe. And, you know, our food supply chain depends on that. So really excited with the work that you've been doing and very happy that you were able to do it. Jen, I know that HP has manufacturing, but I would like to talk about something slightly different with you because I think you have a mixture of employees. So you're in real estate. How are you thinking differently about what to do with the employees? And you know, some people are calling this a hybrid work concept. What has been your experience with coded 19 and a global workforce? >>Absolutely, Maribel. Thank you. So you're absolutely right. We've got a blend in terms of our workforce. We have your sort of knowledge based workers, Aziz. Well, as you know, manufacturing based workers and also essential support. I t support workers. Um, and those latter two categories have continued to use their offices as part of the essential workforce throughout Cove in 19. And so we've implemented very similar sort of safety measures. Social distancing, you know, PP use Onda like, but as we're thinking about what the future of work looks like and really wanting thio leverage all spaces and and sort of re conceptualize or reimagined, as many people are saying, the future of office, um, we're thinking a bit more broadly. And so as a company, we are in the midst of a of a strategy transformation to become the edge of cloud platform as a service company that is the leader in the industry. Uh, similarly, we wanted to think about our strategy in terms of our workplace in a similar way. And so we're framing it as the edge toe office experience, where by the edge, we mean anything, really, that is outside of the office. So that might be your home office. That might be a customer site. That might be, you know, working on the train on your way to the office for a cafe s. So we're really trying to think of the workplaces everywhere. And how do we really design for that? How do we design for a flow, Um, of a workforce that's really moving and working in a space that at that particular time or moment or day best suits their their work. So we're really tackling this in terms of four key areas. Right now we're looking at what is that experience at the edge? What do we need to make people feel comfortable for people to feel safe and connected How are we then? Adapting our office is how are we pivoting those so that they are they really sort of foster used by a much more fluid workforce on, but they're really fostering collaboration and social and connection. Um, then we're looking at the digital experience being that sort of bridge between spaces on dat sort of equalizer, where everyone has a really similar kind of experience, has the ability to engage on. But it's that piece, really that is so core to our culture and ensuring that we continue tohave that really strong cultural element that is core core to HP. And I'm sure, um, to set our health into Kraft Heinz as well on dfo finally really the mindset because I think any time you move into something like hybrid and you have some people that aren't in your physical proximity, how you engage with them is incredibly important on DSO. I think what's what's most exciting? Really, for us is a technology company is the sort of the key, the key part or or piece that technology plays in that where you know, in the in the past, workplace technology and some of these other pieces collaboration technology may have been seen as more of a nice tohave, whereas now it's really an imperative. Um uh, in our view, for, you know, to really support the future workplace. >>I know when we were just talking with Sean, it sounded like there was quite a bit of communications and collaborations that had to happen with the employee based to make sure that they were up to speed on all the changes that were happening in terms of what their work environment, where was going to be on how it will change going forward. Um, now, on Albert side, this also makes me think that, you know, we talked about this tremendous amount of visits that you started doing with telehealth. Can you talk a little bit about the changes of how that might have changed, what the worker environment was like because I went from seeing a lot of patients in person to doing a lot of telehealth Any other changes that you had to associate with this coded 19 shift? >>Well, thank you very well. I think the biggest change is really our belief in what we could get done. So in other words, there's a there's There's always a fundamental belief of what you can achieve, and we've pushed the limits and we keep pushing it. And and really, it's been quite gratifying, actually, to see our our employees, our staff are clinicians. We had to step up to this challenge and feel empowered to do so. So we're we're seeing new models of care we're seeing, for example, patients. I, for example, I diagnosed a hernia. Believe it or not, be a video, which is I leave the graphical images side for a second. Uh, it was an incredible, credible feet and and I thought I never thought my career that I would be able to do this. But certainly you can, um, and this thing you can attitudes really changed our culture. So, as I mentioned earlier, we really marching up about 200 staff members to come together, many of whom we've never worked together. Frankly, to pull this challenge off, we change our training methodology. We, for example, instead of doing in class classroom training, we essentially held five sessions per day for four weeks straight so that we could accommodate the doctor's schedules and get people ready for telemedicine for example, one of the things we needed to do was get equipment out to our doctors. So we provisioned centrally and in a social distance. Safe manner. Um, several 1004. 4000 plus ipads, for example. So we could deploy them. So consider them centrally, deploy them locally to all our clinicians so they could connect to their patients. And the impact was felt almost immediately. We had stories from physicians who said, Hey, um, I had a family, for example, who was really concerned about their baby, and I diagnosed a neurologic disorder via video, for example, Um, in fact, one of our doctors was quoted as saying, You know, this is this is life has changed so much from Kobe 19, where we're seeing this differentiation between B C before coronavirus and a C after coronavirus and care will never be the same again. So it's an incredible transformation. >>I'm excited for the transformation that we've had because I think it'll bring care Teoh a lot more people more seamlessly, which I think is fabulous now. Yeah, Sean, we talked a little bit about what's going on in your manufacturing environment in terms of adding things like social distancing and other protocols. Were there any other manufacturing changes that happened as a result of that or any other challenges that this new environment created? >>Yes. So assed people started to eat more at home. We had to change our whole manufacturing network as, uh, retool because we service restaurants on the go and those two segments started to drop off. People started buying more of their trusted brands that they are used to. And so we had the retool across our manufacturing network in order to make more products that people wanted. That was in high demand. We increased our capacity across many of our segments. We focused on sanitation to production processes, were still ensuring the highest quality of products concert on lean flow and made flow management inside the facilities. We have put challenge all of our operational assumptions and make sure that we get the most out put that we can during this time. I mean, some of the I think there's four key things that we've learned during this. It's our our speed, agility, our death ability, and I read repeatability, and those four things have come to better ways of what better ways of working increase efficiency, greater flexibility and better focus on what the customer really wants. >>It's actually tremendous to think that you can change a manufacturing line like that that you could be that that responsive to shifts in demand. And I think that that that whole concept we've talked about business agility. If you look at it in health care, if you look at it, um, in a mixed blended environment, like what's going on at HP or if you look at it and manufacturing, we've always discussed it, but we we didn't necessarily have that huge imperative and push to get it done as fast as we've done this time. So it's It's wonderful to see that with the right vision and the right technology, you can actually policing together quite quickly and continue to evolve and adapt them as you see different changes in the marketplace. Jenna I wanted to circle back for a minute because you were talking a little bit about this edged office initiative, and how do you think that changes the employee experience? >>Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, I think it changes it in many ways. In many ways, we're gonna We're gonna hold on. Thio, you know, are are sort of primary core beliefs and behaviors Onda way that we operate a love, you know, the example of sort of the the art of the possible. I mean, one of our sort of call core called cultural beliefs are is is the power of yes, we can, um and I think that this what's been so fascinating and heartening about, you know, this context and the previous two examples is people are just surprised at what they've been able to do about, you know, whether that is, you know, entirely changing in manufacturing line. Whether that is, you know, taking an entire patient diagnosis kind of service entirely digital. I think that people are really becoming exposed far more than they have been in the past, to the truly to the power of technology and what we can dio Onda from an employee engagement perspective. You know, HP, as much as we've had a a pretty flexible way of working where, you know, in the past we've had people working from home. Certainly the core of our culture has always been site based. And I think what's been what you know, what we've sort of been shown through the past sort of 67 months is how much connection you could really establish virtually. You know, it may never be ah, wholesale replacement for what you're able to do in person. Um, but the kind of community feelings that were able thio develop, I think the personal connections and we're letting people into our lives a bit more than we would have. Um, otherwise, but we're really seeing a lot of adaptation. Ah, lot of, you know, efficiency gains from certain people. I think a lot of folks had preconceived ideas about not being productive at home. And I think that, you know, barring some of the sort of unique circumstances of cove it I think that's really been flipped on its head s. So I think, you know, from an engagement perspective, productivity, efficiency. Um, I think, you know, very similar to the prior two examples. What we're seeing is, you know, rethinking the way that we all work and being more sort of fluid. Relying more on technology is actually showing us that we can do things differently. Um, and in a way that actually allows people toe work a lot more flexibly in ways that that suit their own personal style without necessarily, you know, seeing any kind of negative impact on on output but actually in the reverse, you know, really seeing an accelerated positive impact. >>Wonderful. So to close out, I like each of you to tell me, what's the number one thing you've learned in the last nine months of this experience? And how do you think you can use that learning going forward? Perhaps we could start this time with Sean. Yes. So I think >>the one thing that we've learned and we started the journey was really created a culture of we versus by and the and the other thing that I think has really been important during this is management style of leadership style. I think I have had to change my leadership style from one of a servant leader because we're not in the plants now to be able to mentor coach people ends on I wonder what I'm going to call attentional leadership tension leadership. To me visibility. You still got to be seen. You still gotta be able to do things. So you got to use teams you got these virtual facetime Got to do something to make people feel engaged. You have to build trust. And remember, this has gone on for nine months. It's gonna go continue to go on a lot of the people you've never really met person yet. You have to have clarity. I think before we set goals at 123 years. Now it's 30 60 90 days because the environment keeps changing around us so fast. Diversity. You have to be very intentional about being reversed and who you slept on. Your team exclusivity. People still want to see you still want to hear you and they still want to be seen. And they still wanna hurt courage. It's x courage to speak up. It takes courage to create clarity. It takes courage to create a diverse team. It takes courage to create to lead in these chaotic times. So that's really the kind of the biggest takeaways that I've had a broken. >>Thank you, Jennifer. You wanna add anything to that? >>I love everything that Sean just said, Um, and in so many ways, it mirrors all of our key themes that we're thinking about in terms of um, you know, the goodness that we want to take from the past few months, um, and and really apply to our go forward strategy or even emphasize e guess the one the one that I would add, I think it it's probably like encompasses so much of that is really just having a bold, you know, the sort of power and believing in bold moves. So I think what's been so exciting is that we had this really quite bold idea moving Teoh. You know, the future is a hybrid, um, from a workplace strategy perspective and really seeing that embraced, um, and being pretty early on in terms of a company that was developing that strategy. And now seeing that you know, ah, lot of are are sort of competitors or peers or coming out with very similar vision statements, um, I think that that's really been a key learning. And that's been something that's, you know, that's cultural to HP. But really, the power of that kind of vision is, you know, having a sort of bold idea and going for >>it. Awesome. How about you, Albert? How >>do I beat these two? This is amazing. Um I think for me it's really an affirmation. So if I think about health care, we have this unique responsibility and opportunity privilege, if you will, to being involved in the most intimate times of patients. Lives and I have been so hardened by the commitment of our teams of our clinicians to be approachable, reachable even in this face, the pandemic and all these things we're all concerned about each and every day that we're committed to our patients. And, uh, and evidence of that. For example, Alcide, our net promoter score for video are Net net promoter score videos 82 which is on par for our in person clinical care and that that, to me reaffirms the power of relationships to connect to people and to care for people when they need us to care for them to empower them and whether it be the pace of change which we've adapted so quickly, or, um or just our ability to can do, you know we'll do, Um, it's really an affirmation that we were committed to helping people in their daily lives, and it's just an affirmation of the power of people in relationships. So, um, it's been really hardening time for all of us. >>Thank you all for such compelling and inspiring stories. I'm sure the audience will take away many tips and tricks on how to turn challenges into opportunities and strategic advantage moving forward, and now I'm going to turn it back to the Cube for the rest of the show.

>> From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is theCUBE conversation. >> Hello everyone, David Vellante here and welcome to the special CUBE conversation with a colleague and friend of mine, Randy Seidl is a accomplished CEO, he's an executive, sales pro, and he's a founder of the Sales Community, this newly formed social network, Randy, good to see you again, welcome. >> Hey, great to see you, it's been a lot of great years, great relationship with you and congratulations with all your success with SiliconANGLE and theCUBE. I was remembering back, I think it's been probably since 1985, so 35 years ago when we were both Cub Scouts, I was at EMC, and you were at IDC. >> Yeah, I mean, first of all, I love where you are, your man-cave there, we heard you held a great little networking event that you do periodically with some of our joint colleagues. And yeah, wow, we were both in our twenties, I was a young pop and Dicky Eagan, and Jack and Mike, and they would have me talk to you guys, you know, sort of brief you on the market, what little I knew now looking back. But wow, Randy, I mean. >> We knew! >> Right, I mean, and then just the whole thing just took off, but we had a good instinct, that storage was going to matter, everything back then was mainframe and IBM was the king of the world, and then you guys just crushed it. Wow, what a run, amazing. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> So tell me about Sales Community. What are you trying to accomplish with this new social network? >> Well, it was kind of really my COVID moment. I was talking to Peter Bell I know, you know well as well, and it was right in the beginning of COVID we were kind of comparing notes and long story short, he said, hey Randy, you do all this work with these technology companies, and channel partners, and use your customers, CIO, CTO, CSOs, but you're really not doing much for those that you know the best, which are really technology sales professionals, CROs, STRs kind of up and down the food chain. And that really got me thinking, then he introduced me to one of his companies that sells to CROs and I was going through with them and they were kind of calling me on the carpet saying, okay, do I really know these people? I'm like, oh my gosh! They basically just said, I'm a dope, I haven't really done anything here. So, one thing led to another and ended up developing a Sales Community, a big thing and big help for me was talking to probably 150 or so during the course of the summer, CROs, VPs of sales, Reps STRs to really kind of help get some feedback from them in terms of I caught now they call product-market fit, but kind of what they think it's missing, what's needed, what are their teams need, what do they want? So, it's kind of all a perfect storm, which to be honest without COVID probably wouldn't have created Sales Community. >> Well, I joined and it was a great onboarding experience and love participating with colleagues. I mean, sales is hard, I mean, you've got your ups and your downs and you just got to keep pressing on, but who's participating in Sales Community. >> We're targeting STRs on up to CROs and the kind of the tagline is learn more so you can sell more. We have a lot of great different kind of content areas and we're going to kind of bob and weave based on the feedback that we get, but we've got some great virtual events and interviews. We have an executive coach, Tony Jerry, who's doing nine sessions on designing your life. We did a recording, a live session last week on personal goal setting. We did one yesterday, it was a live session that'll be posted shortly on strategic health. Next one's on branding, so that's not necessarily specific to tech sales, but kind of adding value. We also have Dave Knorr, another executive coach doing a weekly interview series that we're calling tech sales insights with some of the leading CROs, CEOs, Jim Sullivan, who I know you know well, he's going to be the first one, it's going to be next Wednesday, he runs a NWN and he's done a lot of great things and a lot of other great leaders from there. Also still on the interview virtual events side, Michael Cotoia from Tech Target he's going to do a CMO insights series. His Tech Target International editors are also going to do regional ones. So CIO interviews from AMEA, Asia Pac, Latin America, Australia, also on the CSO side, we have somebody focused on doing a CSO interviews, Paul Salamanca of channel interviews, I think this channel, by and large gets missed a lot. CEO's and then Steve Duplessie, I know you know well as well is going to do and focus on CIO, sub-CIO insights, but basically creating virtual events and interview series that are really targeted at people that we sell to. So that covers the kind of virtual event and interview side. And I maybe more quickly go through some of the other key segments. So another one is a content library. There's the guy who's a STR at ServiceNow went through, send me note the other day that said, hey, I found out you have some great feedback on prospecting cold calling, I shared it with my team helped me a lot. So a lot of good things in terms of content library, also opportunity to network. So you could be say selling to Fidelity, you could send a note to the community and members and say anybody else trying to sell the Fidelity, let's network, let's compare notes, also great opportunities for channel partners. So channel partner could raise their hand and say, hey, I know Fidelity, let me help with you. A lot of sharing of best practices. And also just in terms of communication, slack channels, and then opportunities to create round tables. So you might have CROs from startups that want to have maybe six to 10 of them get together. So they can kind of commiserate, ask questions, you could have CROs, companies that are maybe transforming going from on-prem to kind of SAS model. So a lot of different great things, ultimately really to serve the folks in the tech Sales Community. >> Yeah, it sounds like, I mean, first of all tons of content, the other thing I like about it is we all read books on sales, some of them are so like gimmicky, some of them are inspirational. Some of them have really great suggestions. Some of them can be life changing, but what's always been missing in my opinion, is this notion of a network, a social network, if you will, where people can help each other, you just gave a ton of good examples. So you're really trying to differentiate from a lot of the things that have worked over the years, but have really sort of one way communication, some sales guru either training or you're reading his or her book. >> Yes, and we're also fortunate on the content side, we have some of the best kind of consulting sales methodology companies that love what we're doing. So they're likewise providing a lot of content and as you said, it's crazy. You think of any other industry, restaurant, hotel, lawyers, landscape, they have these big, kind of user groups, even technology companies user groups within the larger field of technology sales enterprise B2B sales, there's really nothing that looks like this that exists. So far the feedback's been great. >> Well, so just to what you're describing, I mean, I've known you for a long, long time, and one of the principles of great salespeople is, you help others, right? You make as many friends as you can, and you're the master of that. But essentially you're bringing a lot of the things that have worked, a lot of the principles that have worked in your career to this community. Maybe talk about that a little bit. >> Yeah, I mean, especially I think some of the younger sales folks, it's not kind of off the cuff as we know, but it's really kind of training, being disciplined, being prepared, what are you going to do, how are you going to do it in this COVID moment? You know, I'm seeing lots of friends where the companies that have great relationships, they can do really well and kind of lean in a lot. If you're kind of cold calling and this environment, and it's tough, so kind of, how can you be best prepared, how can you do the best homework? How can you have the kind of right agenda, when you're going to do the sales calls? And then it's not really as much follow up, but really follow through in terms of what you do afterwards. So kind of what is the training? What can you do, how can you do it? And, you know, it's crazy, a lot of companies spend lots of money on training, but if you think about it they're really tied in specifically to tech sales, hopefully this will be great. Plus being able to just kind of throw out questions here and there works out well as well. >> Well that's what I'm looking forward to, say, hey, I got some challenges, how do others deal with this? You know, one of the things that is, I think, paramount to being a great salesperson is the attitude you hear it all the time. How do you stay pumped up? (laughing) Like I said before, we've all been through ups and downs, and what do you tell people there? >> In terms of staying pumped up, interestingly enough, the session we did yesterday on strategic health, probably plays a key role. So yeah, there's the work aspects and how are you going to focus and wake up and get fired up. But ultimately, I think you really got to take several steps back and saying are you taking care of yourself? Are you sleeping, are you eating and drinking correctly? Are you drinking enough water, are you exercising? So, in this moment, I think that's probably something that gets missed a lot in terms of getting fired up. And then ultimately just being excited about kind of what you're doing, how are you doing it, taking care of the customers and serving those around you. And you had mentioned in terms of giving it back, but a lot of us that have been around, love the idea of kind of paying it forward, helping out others and seeing a lot of the great younger folks really rise up and become stars. >> I think that's one of the most exciting things is somebody has been around for awhile. Like (laughing) we all get cold calls and say, hey, how you doing today? You know, (laughing) you really had that dead air, and you actually want to reach out and help these individuals. A lot of times they'll call you, they have no idea what you do, well I've read your website, and I think we'd be a great fit for, you know, something that would not be a great fit. So, there's a level of preparation we always talk about in sales, you got to be prepared, but there's also sometimes... I was talking to a sales pro the other day, you know, sometimes you can over prepare he said, I've been on sales calls, I prepare for hours and hours and hours, and then they get there, and it was just a lot of wasted hours. I probably could have done it in 15 minutes. I mean, so there's a really a balance there. And it comes with experience, I guess. >> Yeah, I mean, I don't know how anybody could prepare hours and hours, so that's a whole different subject to think. >> Well, he said, my technique now is just 15 minutes before the call I'll jump on and just, you know, cram as much as I can. And it actually, it worked for him. So, different approaches, right? >> Yeah, absolutely. The other thing I'd like to mention is the advisory board I'm fortunate to have a work with, and be friends with several of the best in industry like you. So if anybody goes to the website, you can click on an advisory board and there's a 200 plus and haven't count them exactly. But you know, some of the best in technology, we've got them sorted on the sales side and the channel side, the consulting side, the coaching side, analyst side, but, really just such a tremendous each head of talent that can really help us continue to go and grow and pivot and you're making sure that we are serving our Sales Community and making sure everybody's learning more so they can sell more. And then I guess I should add onto that also, earning more and making more money. >> So I got to ask you where you land on this. I mean, you're a sports fan, I am too and for a while there once the "Moneyball" came out, you saw Billy Bean and it was this sort of formulaic approach. The guy, you know, we would joke the team with the best nerds would win. But it seems like there's an equilibrium. It used to be all gut feel and experience, and then it became the data nerds. And it seems like in our industry, it's following a similar pattern, the marketing ops, Martech, becoming very, very data driven. But it feels to me, Randy, especially in these COVID times that there really is this equilibrium, this balance between experience, and tribal knowledge, gut feel, network, which is something you're building and the data. How do you see that role, that CRO role, that sales role evolving, especially in the context of what I just talked about with the data nerds? (laughing) >> Yeah, absolutely, I think I heard two points there since you brought up Billy Bean, I forgot the guy's name, but in the movie is kind of nerd. I've got Jesse and Tucker who have been tremendously helpful for us putting together a Sales Community. But to answer the question on the CMOs side, the CMOs out there frankly not going to like this answer, but I think more and more, you see CMOs and CROs kind of separated and it's kind of different agendas, my belief is that eventually the CMO function or marketing is really going to come under sales and sales are really going to take a much more active role in driving and leveraging that marketing function in terms of what's the best bang for the buck, what are they doing, how are they doing it? And I've got a lot of friends, I won't name names, but they're not on the sales side and they're doing what they can, but they just see what I'd call it kind of wasted money or inefficiencies on the marketing side. So, if I maybe I spin that a different way, I think given kind of analytics and those companies that do have best practices, and I write things on the marketing side, you know, they're going to continue to go and grow, you know, on cert with the right sales team. So I think that you bring up a great point and that area is going to continue to evolve a lot. >> Does that principle apply to product marketing? In other words do you feel like product marketing should be more aligned with engineering or sales and maybe sales and finance, where do you land on that? >> Yeah, I mean, I'm kind of old school, so I go back to Dick and Jack and Roger and Mike Rutgers, and you all in terms of, hey, you have those silos, but you get everybody at the table, kind of what we're working well together. It is interesting though in today's world, the PLG, Product-Led Growth models, where a lot of companies now are trying to get in maybe almost like a VMware, maybe BMC did in the early days where you're kind of getting into the low level developers and then kind of things bubble up so that you think Product-Led Growth model, having a lower cost insight sales model, works when I'll say the kind of the product sells itself. But I would argue, that I think some of those PLG led companies really miss out on leveraging the high end enterprise relationships, to kind of turbocharge and supersize and expedite larger sales deals, larger (indistinct). >> Well, and you mentioned earlier a channel you said a lot of times that's overlooked and I couldn't agree more, channel increasingly important. That's where a lot of the relationships live, it gives you scale, it just gives you a lot of leverage, maybe you talk about the importance of channel and how it relates to Sales Community. >> Yeah, I mean, it's interesting they're really unto themselves, there's some things that are channel channel, but if you think about, you know, go to market tech sales, pick the company on average is probably half of the business goes through the channel. And it used to be way back when just kind of fulfillment, but now the best companies really are those that have the right relationships, that are adding value, that can help on the pre sales, that can help on the post sales, that can help kind of cross sale. You know, if I'm a customer, I don't want to deal with whatever five or 10 different vendors if I can have a one stop shop with one bar solution provider, partner, SI, or whatever you want to call them, you know, that certainly makes life a lot easier. And I think a lot of companies almost been kind of a second class citizen, but I think those companies that really bring them into the fold as really partners at the table, whether it be an account planning sessions, whether you're doing sales calls, but kind of leveraging that I call it a variable cost kind of off balance sheet, sales force really is where the future is going to continue to go. >> So you've been a successful individual sales contributor. You've been a CEO, you've run large sales organizations. I mean, you basically ran sales at HP for Donna Telly, and so you've seen it all, and you've been helping startups. When you look at hiring sales people, what are the attributes that you look for? Is it intelligence, is it hard work, is it coach ability? What are some of the things that are most important to you, and do you apply different attributes in different situations? What are your thoughts on that? >> Great question in a little plug, maybe for a recruiting business, top talent recruiting, (laughing) but one of the key things that we do, which I think is different from others in the recruiting side is the relationships. So a lot of people don't dig in, when we're talking to candidates, they say, well, nobody really asked me this before. And I would argue a key differentiator, and this is way before COVID, but especially now with COVID is okay, who do you have relationships with? So I could be talking to a candidate that maybe somebody is hiring, wants to cover financial services in New York. And then I'll say, okay, well, who do you know what City JPB Bay and I'll know more people than they know. And I'll probably say, just so you know, that's weird me up in Boston. I know more than the council you probably know the best. So really trying to unearth, really kind of who has the right relationships and then separate from that in terms of a reference check, being able to reference checks sooner in the process with somebody that know well firsthand, as opposed to second hand. And a lot of times I've seen even some of the larger, more expensive recruiting firms, you're kind of wait until somebody is the final say, when do an offer, then they do a reference check and they do the reference check with somebody that they don't know. And to me, I mean, that's totally useless which quite with LinkedIn today, I could be say if we're looking at you for candidate, maybe a bad example, but I don't know, we probably have a 1000 in common, and from those, we probably have 200 that we both know, well, that I could check. And when you do reference checking, it's not a maybe it's either, hey, the person is a yes, or the person's a no. So trying to do that early in the process, I think is a big differentiator. And then last and probably third piece I'd highlight is, if it's a startup company, you can't get somebody that's just from a big company. If it's a big company role, you can't get somebody that just from a small company, you got to really make sure you kind of peel back the onions and see where they're from. And you could have somebody from a big company, but they were kind of wearing a smaller division. So again, you have to kind of, you can't judge a book by the cover. You got to kind of peel back the onion. >> So Randy, how do people learn more about Sales Community? Where do they go to engage, sign up, et cetera? >> Absolutely, it's salescommunity.com. So it should be pretty straight forward. A lot of great information there. You can go subscribe, and if you like it spread the word and a lot of great content and you can ping me there. And if not I'm randy@salescommunity.com. So love to get any feedback, help out in any way we can. >> Well, I think it's critical that you're putting this network together and you are probably the best networker that I know I've seen you in action at gatherings and you really have been a great inspiration and a friend. So, Randy, thanks so much for doing the Sales Community and coming on theCUBE and sharing your experience with us. >> Great, thanks Dave, appreciate it. >> All right you're very welcome and thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE, and we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

>>welcome. My name is Ben Bennett. I am the director of HPC Strategic programs here at Hewlett Packard Enterprise. It is my great pleasure and honor to be talking to Professor Mark Parsons from the Edinburgh Parallel Computing Center. And we're gonna talk a little about exa scale. What? It means we're gonna talk less about the technology on Maura about the science, the requirements on the need for exa scale. Uh, rather than a deep dive into the enabling technologies. Mark. Welcome. >>I then thanks very much for inviting me to tell me >>complete pleasure. Um, so I'd like to kick off with, I suppose. Quite an interesting look back. You and I are both of a certain age 25 plus, Onda. We've seen these milestones. Uh, I suppose that the S I milestones of high performance computing's come and go, you know, from a gig a flop back in 1987 teraflop in 97 a petaflop in 2000 and eight. But we seem to be taking longer in getting to an ex a flop. Um, so I'd like your thoughts. Why is why is an extra flop taking so long? >>So I think that's a very interesting question because I started my career in parallel computing in 1989. I'm gonna join in. IPCC was set up then. You know, we're 30 years old this year in 1990 on Do you know the fastest computer we have them is 800 mega flops just under a getting flogged. So in my career, we've gone already. When we reached the better scale, we'd already gone pretty much a million times faster on, you know, the step from a tariff block to a block scale system really didn't feel particularly difficult. Um, on yet the step from A from a petaflop PETA scale system. To an extent, block is a really, really big challenge. And I think it's really actually related to what's happened with computer processes over the last decade, where, individually, you know, approached the core, Like on your laptop. Whoever hasn't got much faster, we've just got more often So the perception of more speed, but actually just being delivered by more course. And as you go down that approach, you know what happens in the supercomputing world as well. We've gone, uh, in 2010 I think we had systems that were, you know, a few 1000 cores. Our main national service in the UK for the last eight years has had 118,000 cores. But looking at the X scale we're looking at, you know, four or five million cores on taming that level of parallelism is the real challenge. And that's why it's taking an enormous and time to, uh, deliver these systems. That is not just on the hardware front. You know, vendors like HP have to deliver world beating technology and it's hard, hard. But then there's also the challenge to the users. How do they get the codes to work in the face of that much parallelism? >>If you look at what the the complexity is delivering an annex a flop. Andi, you could have bought an extra flop three or four years ago. You couldn't have housed it. You couldn't have powered it. You couldn't have afforded it on, do you? Couldn't program it. But you still you could have You could have bought one. We should have been so lucky to be unable to supply it. Um, the software, um I think from our standpoint, is is looking like where we're doing mawr enabling with our customers. You sell them a machine on, then the the need then to do collaboration specifically seems mawr and Maura around the software. Um, so it's It's gonna be relatively easy to get one x a flop using limb pack, but but that's not extra scale. So what do you think? On exa scale machine versus an X? A flop machine means to the people like yourself to your users, the scientists and industry. What is an ex? A flop versus >>an exa scale? So I think, you know, supercomputing moves forward by setting itself challenges. And when you when you look at all of the excess scale programs worldwide that are trying to deliver systems that can do an X a lot form or it's actually very arbitrary challenge. You know, we set ourselves a PETA scale challenge delivering a petaflop somebody manage that, Andi. But you know, the world moves forward by setting itself challenges e think you know, we use quite arbitrary definition of what we mean is well by an exit block. So, you know, in your in my world, um, we either way, first of all, see ah flop is a computation, so multiply or it's an ad or whatever on we tend. Thio, look at that is using very high precision numbers or 64 bit numbers on Do you know, we then say, Well, you've got to do the next block. You've got to do a billion billion of those calculations every second. No, a some of the last arbitrary target Now you know today from HPD Aiken by my assistant and will do a billion billion calculations per second. And they will either do that as a theoretical peak, which would be almost unattainable, or using benchmarks that stressed the system on demonstrate a relaxing law. But again, those benchmarks themselves attuned Thio. Just do those calculations and deliver and explore been a steady I'll way if you like. So, you know, way kind of set ourselves this this this big challenge You know, the big fence on the race course, which were clambering over. But the challenge in itself actually should be. I'm much more interesting. The water we're going to use these devices for having built um, eso. Getting into the extra scale era is not so much about doing an extra block. It's a new generation off capability that allows us to do better scientific and industrial research. And that's the interesting bit in this whole story. >>I would tend to agree with you. I think the the focus around exa scale is to look at, you know, new technologies, new ways of doing things, new ways of looking at data and to get new results. So eventually you will get yourself a nexus scale machine. Um, one hopes, sooner rather >>than later. Well, I'm sure you don't tell me one, Ben. >>It's got nothing to do with may. I can't sell you anything, Mark. But there are people outside the door over there who would love to sell you one. Yes. However, if we if you look at your you know your your exa scale machine, Um, how do you believe the workloads are going to be different on an extra scale machine versus your current PETA scale machine? >>So I think there's always a slight conceit when you buy a new national supercomputer. On that conceit is that you're buying a capability that you know on. But many people will run on the whole system. Known truth. We do have people that run on the whole of our archer system. Today's A 118,000 cores, but I would say, and I'm looking at the system. People that run over say, half of that can be counted on Europe on a single hand in a year, and they're doing very specific things. It's very costly simulation they're running on. So, you know, if you look at these systems today, two things show no one is. It's very difficult to get time on them. The Baroque application procedures All of the requirements have to be assessed by your peers and your given quite limited amount of time that you have to eke out to do science. Andi people tend to run their applications in the sweet spot where their application delivers the best performance on You know, we try to push our users over time. Thio use reasonably sized jobs. I think our average job says about 20,000 course, she's not bad, but that does mean that as we move to the exits, kill two things have to happen. One is actually I think we've got to be more relaxed about giving people access to the system, So let's give more people access, let people play, let people try out ideas they've never tried out before. And I think that will lead to a lot more innovation and computational science. But at the same time, I think we also need to be less precious. You know, we to accept these systems will have a variety of sizes of job on them. You know, we're still gonna have people that want to run four million cores or two million cores. That's absolutely fine. Absolutely. Salute those people for trying really, really difficult. But then we're gonna have a huge spectrum of views all the way down to people that want to run on 500 cores or whatever. So I think we need Thio broaden the user base in Alexa Skill system. And I know this is what's happening, for example, in Japan with the new Japanese system. >>So, Mark, if you cast your mind back to almost exactly a year ago after the HPC user forum, you were interviewed for Premier Magazine on Do you alluded in that article to the needs off scientific industrial users requiring, you know, uh on X a flop or an exa scale machine it's clear in your in your previous answer regarding, you know, the workloads. Some would say that the majority of people would be happier with, say, 10 100 petaflop machines. You know, democratization. More people access. But can you provide us examples at the type of science? The needs of industrial users that actually do require those resources to be put >>together as an exa scale machine? So I think you know, it's a very interesting area. At the end of the day, these systems air bought because they are capability systems on. I absolutely take the argument. Why shouldn't we buy 10 100 pattern block systems? But there are a number of scientific areas even today that would benefit from a nexus school system and on these the sort of scientific areas that will use as much access onto a system as much time and as much scale of the system as they can, as you can give them eso on immediate example. People doing chroma dynamics calculations in particle physics, theoretical calculations, they would just use whatever you give them. But you know, I think one of the areas that is very interesting is actually the engineering space where, you know, many people worry the engineering applications over the last decade haven't really kept up with this sort of supercomputers that we have. I'm leading a project called Asimov, funded by M. P S O. C in the UK, which is jointly with Rolls Royce, jointly funded by Rolls Royce and also working with the University of Cambridge, Oxford, Bristol, Warrick. We're trying to do the whole engine gas turbine simulation for the first time. So that's looking at the structure of the gas turbine, the airplane engine, the structure of it, how it's all built it together, looking at the fluid dynamics off the air and the hot gasses, the flu threat, looking at the combustion of the engine looking how fuel is spread into the combustion chamber. Looking at the electrics around, looking at the way the engine two forms is, it heats up and cools down all of that. Now Rolls Royce wants to do that for 20 years. Andi, Uh, whenever they certify, a new engine has to go through a number of physical tests, and every time they do on those tests, it could cost them as much as 25 to $30 million. These are very expensive tests, particularly when they do what's called a blade off test, which would be, you know, blade failure. They could prove that the engine contains the fragments of the blade. Sort of think, continue face really important test and all engines and pass it. What we want to do is do is use an exa scale computer to properly model a blade off test for the first time, so that in future, some simulations can become virtual rather than having thio expend all of the money that Rolls Royce would normally spend on. You know, it's a fascinating project is a really hard project to do. One of the things that I do is I am deaf to share this year. Gordon Bell Price on bond I've really enjoyed to do. That's one of the major prizes in our area, you know, gets announced supercomputing every year. So I have the pleasure of reading all the submissions each year. I what's been really interesting thing? This is my third year doing being on the committee on what's really interesting is the way that big systems like Summit, for example, in the US have pushed the user communities to try and do simulations Nowhere. Nobody's done before, you know. And we've seen this as well, with papers coming after the first use of the for Goku system in Japan, for example, people you know, these are very, very broad. So, you know, earthquake simulation, a large Eddie simulations of boats. You know, a number of things around Genome Wide Association studies, for example. So the use of these computers spans of last area off computational science. I think the really really important thing about these systems is their challenging people that do calculations they've never done before. That's what's important. >>Okay, Thank you. You talked about challenges when I nearly said when you and I had lots of hair, but that's probably much more true of May. Um, we used to talk about grand challenges we talked about, especially around the teraflop era, the ski red program driving, you know, the grand challenges of science, possibly to hide the fact that it was a bomb designing computer eso they talked about the grand challenges. Um, we don't seem to talk about that much. We talk about excess girl. We talk about data. Um Where are the grand challenges that you see that an exa scale computer can you know it can help us. Okay, >>so I think grand challenges didn't go away. Just the phrase went out of fashion. Um, that's like my hair. I think it's interesting. The I do feel the science moves forward by setting itself grand challenges and always had has done, you know, my original backgrounds in particle physics. I was very lucky to spend four years at CERN working in the early stage of the left accelerator when it first came online on. Do you know the scientists there? I think they worked on left 15 years before I came in and did my little ph d on it. Andi, I think that way of organizing science hasn't changed. We just talked less about grand challenges. I think you know what I've seen over the last few years is a renaissance in computational science, looking at things that have previously, you know, people have said have been impossible. So a couple of years ago, for example, one of the key Gordon Bell price papers was on Genome Wide Association studies on some of it. If I may be one of the winner of its, if I remember right on. But that was really, really interesting because first of all, you know, the sort of the Genome Wide Association Studies had gone out of favor in the bioinformatics by a scientist community because people thought they weren't possible to compute. But that particular paper should Yes, you could do these really, really big Continental little problems in a reasonable amount of time if you had a big enough computer. And one thing I felt all the way through my career actually is we've probably discarded Mawr simulations because they were impossible at the time that we've actually decided to do. And I sometimes think we to challenge ourselves by looking at the things we've discovered in the past and say, Oh, look, you know, we could actually do that now, Andi, I think part of the the challenge of bringing an extra service toe life is to get people to think about what they would use it for. That's a key thing. Otherwise, I always say, a computer that is unused to just be turned off. There's no point in having underutilized supercomputer. Everybody loses from that. >>So Let's let's bring ourselves slightly more up to date. We're in the middle of a global pandemic. Uh, on board one of the things in our industry has bean that I've been particularly proud about is I've seen the vendors, all the vendors, you know, offering up machine's onboard, uh, making resources available for people to fight things current disease. Um, how do you see supercomputers now and in the future? Speeding up things like vaccine discovery on help when helping doctors generally. >>So I think you're quite right that, you know, the supercomputer community around the world actually did a really good job of responding to over 19. Inasmuch as you know, speaking for the UK, we put in place a rapid access program. So anybody wanted to do covert research on the various national services we have done to the to two services Could get really quick access. Um, on that, that has worked really well in the UK You know, we didn't have an archer is an old system, Aziz. You know, we didn't have the world's largest supercomputer, but it is happily bean running lots off covert 19 simulations largely for the biomedical community. Looking at Druk modeling and molecular modeling. Largely that's just been going the US They've been doing really large uh, combinatorial parameter search problems on on Summit, for example, looking to see whether or not old drugs could be reused to solve a new problem on DSO, I think, I think actually, in some respects Kobe, 19 is being the sounds wrong. But it's actually been good for supercomputing. Inasmuch is pointed out to governments that supercomputers are important parts off any scientific, the active countries research infrastructure. >>So, um, I'll finish up and tap into your inner geek. Um, there's a lot of technologies that are being banded around to currently enable, you know, the first exa scale machine, wherever that's going to be from whomever, what are the current technologies or emerging technologies that you are interested in excited about looking forward to getting your hands on. >>So in the business case I've written for the U. K's exa scale computer, I actually characterized this is a choice between the American model in the Japanese model. Okay, both of frozen, both of condoms. Eso in America, they're very much gone down the chorus plus GPU or GPU fruit. Um, so you might have, you know, an Intel Xeon or an M D process er center or unarmed process or, for that matter on you might have, you know, 24 g. P. U s. I think the most interesting thing that I've seen is definitely this move to a single address space. So the data that you have will be accessible, but the G p u on the CPU, I think you know, that's really bean. One of the key things that stopped the uptake of GPS today and that that that one single change is going Thio, I think, uh, make things very, very interesting. But I'm not entirely convinced that the CPU GPU model because I think that it's very difficult to get all the all the performance set of the GPU. You know, it will do well in H p l, for example, high performance impact benchmark we're discussing at the beginning of this interview. But in riel scientific workloads, you know, you still find it difficult to find all the performance that has promised. So, you know, the Japanese approach, which is the core, is only approach. E think it's very attractive, inasmuch as you know They're using very high bandwidth memory, very interesting process of which they are going to have to, you know, which they could develop together over 10 year period. And this is one thing that people don't realize the Japanese program and the American Mexico program has been working for 10 years on these systems. I think the Japanese process really interesting because, um, it when you look at the performance, it really does work for their scientific work clothes, and that's that does interest me a lot. This this combination of a A process are designed to do good science, high bandwidth memory and a real understanding of how data flows around the supercomputer. I think those are the things are exciting me at the moment. Obviously, you know, there's new networking technologies, I think, in the fullness of time, not necessarily for the first systems. You know, over the next decade we're going to see much, much more activity on silicon photonics. I think that's really, really fascinating all of these things. I think in some respects the last decade has just bean quite incremental improvements. But I think we're supercomputing is going in the moment. We're a very very disruptive moment again. That goes back to start this discussion. Why is extra skill been difficult to get? Thio? Actually, because the disruptive moment in technology. >>Professor Parsons, thank you very much for your time and your insights. Thank you. Pleasure and folks. Thank you for watching. I hope you've learned something, or at least enjoyed it. With that, I would ask you to stay safe and goodbye.